TRANSCRIPT OF PUBLIC MEETING

Vt

IN RE :

UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL

PROTECTION AGENCY

PUBLIC MEETINGi

Avco Lycoming Superfund

Site, William-sport, PA

BEFORE: CARRIE DEITZEL

Jill Lowe

Bruce Rundell

Eugene Dennis

LOCATION: City Hall

245 West Fourth

S t; r,e e t

Williamsport, PA

HEARING: January 10, 2000

7:00 p.m.

P U B L I C SPEAKERS: M i c h a e l Ochs

Mel Zimmerman

Walter Nicholson ,

Jim Barr

Reporter: Jane E. Messner

ORIGINALA n y r e p r o d u c t i o n o f t h i s t r a n s c r i p t

i s p r o h i b i t e d w i t h o u t a u t h o r i z a t i o n

by t he c e r t i f y i n g a g e n c y .

Sargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc.

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A L S O P R E S E N T : R a n d y F a r m e r i e ,

D E P W i l l i a m s p o r t

R o b e r t W a g n e r

J a c k S t i b e r

D o n R i l e s

K a t h y T h o m a s

f o u r s t u d e n t s


f ' . ,- . (814) 536-8908

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I N D E X .

D I S C U S S I O N A M O N G P A R T I E S 5 - 1 5 2

C E R T I P I C A T E 1 5 3


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E X H I B I T P A G E

N O N E O F F E R E D


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P R O C E E D I N G S

M S . D f e l T Z B L ;

I'm glad everyone has

come this evening. Unless

someone knows otherwise, is

there anyone that anyone' is

expecting that hasn't arrived

yet? In that case, I think

we'll go ahead and get

started. First of all, thank

you for coming. I'd like to

also say thank you to the

city for allowing us to use

their facility and helping us

get everything organized for

this evening's meeting.

I'm Carrie Deitzel.

I'm the community involvement

coordinator for the U.S.

Environmental Protection

Agency, Region Three Office

in Philadelphia. I have had

several calls recently from

people interested in


(814) 536-8908

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V

- - - • • i o

information about.the site

and this evening's meeting.

And I'd like to, .encourage you

to continue to call me if you

have .questions or need any

additional information about

the site. ,' I

A11 o f „ t h e information

on the various ways you can

reach me is on the.back of

the two-page sheet that is by

the door. And one of the

numbers is a toll-free 800 ,

number. You can use that

number to reach me or anyone

e l s e w h o is with me this

evening. It's a.24-hour hot

line service., During working

hours, the people who are in

my section may answer the

p h one,,-but you can leave a

message at any time at that

machine* and someone will get

back ,t o y o u .

The reason we're here

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this evening is because EPAis planning to --- or isrecommending some changesthat they would like to makein the way that we're goingto treat the volatile organiccontamination that is in the

shallow aquifer at the site.And we want to tell you whatour plan is.

Before we do that, ifyou didn't pick up the plan,the plan itself is here.This is a technical document.It can be a little difficultto read through sometimes,

but it tells you'about, notonly the alternative that we

prefer for cleaning up thegroundwater, but also theother ones that we've lookedat. The shorter fact sheet,

which has my contactinformation, as well as ourproject manager's, is just

Sargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc.(814) 536-8908

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about our preferred

alternative. It does not

discuss .any of the other

alternatives that we

discussed in the plan itself.

It's very easy to read. As

you recall, the public

comment portion ends at

midnight on January the 17th.

You can make comments here

this evening and we have a

transcriptionistwith us who

is making a n o f f i c i a l record

of tonight's meeting. That

official record will become

p a r t o f the permanent record.

And we keep a f i l e of

information about everything

that, we've done, ^All of our

official documents are

available to you at the James

V. Brown Library in

Williamsport. T h e R e c o r d of

Decision, when it's finally

signed, w ,111.be: placed at the


,, (814) 536-8908

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. ^_library. And there is an

attachment to the Record of

Decision which is called a

responsiveness summary. And

that will have a summary of

the comments that come in

during the public comment

periods as well as a summary

of our responses to those

c omme n t s .

We also have a web

site that you can look at

that will give you

site-specific information.

It will also give you

information about the

Superfund program and about

other EPA programs. And

that's at www.epa.gov.

Because this is in the

comment period, as I said, we

are making a record. If

you'd like to tell us your

name and whether you're a

resident or an official or


(814) 536-8908

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what e v er before you speak,

that wo u.l d b e g r e a t . if yo^u

have a difficult .name, you

might want, to help the ,

t r a n s c r i p t i o n i s t out by ;

.telling her..., how to spell it.

i l a l s o wanted to

mention that this evening we

kind of have some ground

rules ora ground rule. At »our last meeting, we got a '

ilittle bit lengthy because we

let individuals kind of

monopolize the conversation

for too long a period befor;e

rotating to the next speaker.

So what we'd like to do this

evening is ask that you limit

yourself to, t w,o comments or

q u e s t i on s at* a time, but you

can certainly get as manyturns as you want. We'd just

1 ike to hear from one per s o'n ,X

two questions or two comments

and then give another pers on


(814) 536-8908ftR500QI3

a chance to speak and if no

one else wants to speak,

we'll come back to you. We

do have the room until nine

o'clock this evening. And

the other thing I want you to

keep in mind is that what

we're here to talk about

tonight is this proposed plan

dealing with the groundwater.

If we have time and

there are questions about

other things, we may be able

to get to them, but

specifically we need to focus

on this tonight. After this

evening, if you have

additional comments that

you'd like to make, please

refer to that two pager. And

you can E-mail us, you can

FAX us, you can U.S. mail us

as long as you do it by

midnight on the 17th.

I'd like to introduce


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the people ;who are^ here with

me this evening.

The lady in red, this

is Jill. Jill Lowe is the

current. project, manager for

the, Avco site. T h i s is

Jill's first public meeting,

but she's been working on the

site for about a year now.

She's familiar to Avco and

all the regulatory

authorities but not to the. . i : '•

community members,

And then next to Jill

in the dark blue shirt is •

Eugene Dennis. Eugene is a

former project managerfamiliar to anyone who's been

here in the past. Eugene is

with us tonight because he

has a 1 o t o f historical

information about the site as

well as all of our actions

t a k i n g place t o d a t e .

And this gentleman is


(814) 536-8908AR5000I5

T3

Bruce Rundell. He's our

hydrogeologist for the site.

We also have in the back of

the room Randy Farmerie, who

represents the Pennsylvania

Department of Environmental

Protection. With that, I'm

going to turn the meeting

over to Jill. She's going to

give a brief presentation and

then we'll listen to

questions and comments from

all of you.

MS . LOWE ;

Thanks, Carrie.

Welcome. Thanks for coming

out tonight. Tonight I'm

going to be discussing the

proposed plan for the Avco

Lycoming Superfund Site which

is the Textron Plant for you

residents .

The plan discusses the

groundwater at the site,

which is contaminated with


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volatile organic contaminant

compounds, V.OCs we call them,

and metal, specifically

chromium.

I. want to go over my

presentation outline -so you

know where I'm heading and .

what I'm going to cover.( •* •*We'll start with a. brief

introduction t o t h e site, go. i . '• iover some of the history and

bring you up to date. Then

I'm going to discuss the

a 1 1 e r,n a t i v e s w h ich I covered

in the proposed plan and

which are evaluated in the !

proposed plan. And I'llfinish up with a discussion

on public participation, go

over where you can send your

comments again and then our

conclusions which will

include the question and ;

answer period.

This is a map of ther


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IS————

Textron Plant as it relates

to Williamsport. You can't

really see the red line ---

you can sort of tell it's

red. But that's the Memorial

Avenue. It's right under the

little caption that says

Textron Plant. You can see

where it says Conrail.

That's the railroad. And

then off to the left in

squiggly letters coming down

the side is Lycoming Creek.

So that should orientate you.

MR . OCHS :

There are two Conrail

lines. Which one are you

referring to as the southern

border?

MS . LOME ;

T h e r e ' s one t h a t i s • a

l i t t l e b i t l e f t t h a n t h e

m i d d l e o f t h e p a g e a n d o n e

t h a t ' s a l i t t l e f u r t h e r d o w n .

I ' m j u s t p o i n t i n g t h e m o u t s o


(814) 536-8908A R 5 0 0 0 I 8

you pan orientate yourself.

And one thing that Carrie did

not mention is, can we hold

the questions until the

question and answer .period

unless it's something that's

drastic and not going to be

able to wait. Thanks. >

The history of the

site is .important to review

because it will hopefully

lead you logically to where\.we are tonight.. The site was

if i r s t f s o u n d i n ,1984, a b o u t .

T h e y W i l l ' i a m s p o r t M u n i c i p a li

Hater. Authority was testing

wells, found some volatile

o r gan i c c ompounds , VOCs in

the, wells, and alerted thei , - 1state. The statewent to

work on it in like '85, '86

or (t ha t time f r ame , worked

with the T e xtro.n people to

put, some treatment -'Out at the» - -i ',.••• * jmunicipal well,s.f In 1987, it


, ,(814) 536-8908flR5000!9

17

was proposed for the

Superfund list. And in 1990

it was listed onto the

Superfund list.

The site is a

responsible party lead which

means that Textron is

responsible for doing the

remediation and for funding

it. And we act in accordance

with them as the regulatory

agency. In 1991, the EPA,

Environmental Protection

Agency, issued the first

record of decision for the

site. And that was for

groundwater also and VOC

contamination in the

groundwater. It also covered

the metals, actually.

In this Record of

Decision, we chose the remedy

of groundwater pump and

treat. During the design

process for the pump and


(814) 536-8908AR500020

treat facility, and while

awaiting the NPDES permit,

the r e s pon s i b 1 e p a r t i e s did

some further investigation ,

and tried to find new '

technologies which may clean

up the site a little bit

q u i c k e r .

During t hi s

investigation, they came up

with some good results for;

the two technologies I have

listed. In- situ metals

precipitation and air

sparging soil, .vapor

extraction. Their

preliminary results looked so

good that the EPA decided to

go along with them in the

request for doing a pilot

study t o s e e if these

technologies would work at

the site. , ;

So the pilot study was

started a, little bit before

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nr'96, I guess, between the '91

and '96. And the study

showed that the two

technologies should work in

the area. So in 1996, the

EPA issued a new Record of

Decision for groundwater

beneath the facility and the

alternatives that they chose

were in-situ metals

precipitation for cleaning up

the chromium in the

groundwater, and air

sparging/SVE for cleaning up

the VOCs in the groundwater.

The in-situ metals

precipitation works very

well. It's currently still

going on at the plant and

we're seeing great results

for it. And it will continue

to be used until we meet our

remediation goals. The air

sparging/SVE, although it

could work, did not show


(814) 536-8908AR500022

f a v o r a b l e r e s u l t s . T h e

geology of the a rea , w h i c h is

the n e x t p i c t u r e I h a v e - - -iit doesn't come out really

great. Maybe we could dim

the lights a little. Thei

geology of the area is very

complex, much more so than ;--

- that'^s better. This area

ove-r here,, the ^Idghter green,i

is the grave 1 . And then, as

you see, right over here is

where t h e y d o t h e a i r

: s p a r g i n g / S V E test. It's also

gravel .B u t all these other

different colors are >

different geological

formations. S o m e a r e clay.

And I /can't think of any

other ones that are there.

And they made for a complex

situation. And you can see

that little ,ppcket of ground

right there is where they had


(814) 536-8908flR500023

zrdone the pilot test. That

area is very coarse and

worked very well. In the

rest of the area, the air

sparging/SVE did not work as

well.

Now, I'm going to have

to wing it because I can't

see my notes. Here's a

better picture. Maybe I can

use my map and point. There

you go. That's the gravel.

It comes out in a little

channel running southwest off

of the site towards Memorial

Avenue. And this is where

they were doing the pilot

test, over in this area.

Then these are all just

various formations here, all

the different colors.

So once they were

putting in the air

sparging/SVE that wasn't

proving to work as we had


(814) 536-8908

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anticipated, we , d i d further

studies on the geology and

found out ti t was very

complex. The studies were

good because we h a v e a wealth

p f d a t a :f o r t h e s i t e and it

con f i rms --- you, know, it's

able to stand up to what we

think is going on there.

All right. Now, this

bring us up to present. The

scope of this proposed plan

covers three different

elements. The first one is

the groundwater beneath the

facility in the shallow

aquifer. -r T.h ere .a re two

aquifers that are comprised

as Superfund sites. One is- .<• i *• - - , ? ; .

the shallow or overburden '

aquifer and the other one is

the deep aquifer or the

befdrpcrfc aquifer. This plan

address the groundwater

beneath the facility in the


(814) 536-8908

AR500025

shallow aquifer. It also

addresses sources of high

contamination, source areas

or hot spots. These are two

spots which, in the next

slide you'll see, in the

center of the facility and in

the parking lot area, that

have pockets of high

contamination. There's a lot

of VOCs there. And we feel

if we concentrate on those,

it would help the whole

remediation process. And it

also addresses the

groundwater beyond the

facility in both the shallow

and deep aquifers.

Here's another map of

the area. It shows some

contours, but the red line is

M e m o r i a l Avenue. These two

circles are the hot spot

source areas. And then this

red spot there and this red


(814) 536-8908

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spot here that are. blue are

the two extraction wells, the

Williams p o r t mun icipal wells.

We looked at many ;

alternatives for the

facility. The first '

alternative we looked at isi

the no-action alternative.

And this we take if we were1

t 9 . do nothing from this

point on, what would happen.

The first real alternative we

looked at was the groundwater| p*

pump and treat. This is a

cost breakdown underneath it.*

Capital post is what it would

take to build, the yearly

operations and maintenance is

what it, would take to run per

year and then, the 30-year

total net present value,

which includes. the capital

cost and then 30 years of< . > • • - - • -..'.-.-. <operations and maintenance.

The next al t erna t i ve

Sargent ' s <!ourt Reporting Service, Inc.

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2T

we looked at were air

sparging and soil vapor

extraction again. Then,

in-well air stripping,

in-situ oxidation with

potassium permanganate and

in-situ oxidation with

hydrogen peroxide ozone

sparging. The preferred or

proposed alternative for the

EPA is the groundwater pump

and treat, which is

alternative one.

For this we would

extract the contaminated

groundwater using wells, pipe

it to a treatment facility

which would use air stripping

to remove the VOCs from the

groundwater. The air would

then be treated for emmission

control to ensure that

nothing got out into the

atmosphere. And then we

would discharge the clean


(814) 536-8908

water to ,Ly coming Creek. i

This is a schematic.

The blue box is the area that

we would capture or have our

extraction we 11. And this tis

just a preliminary design for

the proposed plan. Again,

Memorial Avenue is the red

line. And as you can see

here, here's the plume. The

100 and 1 , 0 0 0 , those are

contour lines of VOC '

contamination. That' s i , 000

parts per billion, one part

per billion is one cent and

10,000, ten million dollars.

So that's the contour. Andif you could hold up the t wo

slides, the pre v i ous slides

in this one, you, would see [

that the blue box covers t he

area right where it gets

skinny by Memorial Avenue.

And will d r a w i n a l l that

contamination there and keep

Sargent ',s Court Reporting Service, Inc.

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it from leaving the property

boundary.

MR . Z IMMERMAN :

Is it for the VOC

concentration in general or

is it for all contaminants or

MS . LOWE ;

It's for all the v'ocs

together. Okay. Now, I'd

like to go to the second

element of the proposed plan,

which is what we proposed for

the areas of high

contamination. For this

area, we're doing something a

little bit different. We are

choosing these three

technologies, the air

sparging, groundwater

extraction, and in-situ

oxidation. And it is our

belief that all three would

work in the source areas

equally well. We've


(814) 536-8908

AR500030

y

estimated that it would be

about $840,000 for a 30-year

project. That's a EPA

estimate for about all three

of them. S o w e 're leaving

this decision to the

responsi b 1 e party, Textron,

to choose which they feel

would be best su it ed to each

s o u r c e a r e a . . -

They could do a

different one i n e a c h source

area or they could do a

combination in the source

areas. And we're asking for

them to present this to us

during the design phase of

the pump and treat.

The last area I want

to cover is the third element

o f t h e proposed plan. And

that's the groundwater

beneath the facility.

MR . DENNI S ;

A Beyond the facility.


(814) 536-8908

AR50003I

MS . LOWE :

Beyond the facility.

Okay. For that we propose to

stick with the existing

treatment. The existing

groundwater extraction system

is operated under a consent

order and agreement with the

Pennsylvania Department of

Environmental Protection. It

is two extraction --- air

stripping on two wells, the

Elm - - - .

MR . DENNIS ;

Elm Park and West

Third Street.

MS . LOWE :

Elm Park and West

Third Street and where those

blue dots were on that one

block. We believe that using

this system the municipal

board or authority only draws

from this for drinking water

during drought conditions


(814) 536-8908AR500032

—————————————————————————————————— JTJ

because Williamsport gets

most of its 'drinking water

from the reser v.o i r . The

extraction system makes it

perfectly safe for human

health and the environment.

And we're working in

conjunction with the proposed

pump and treat to keep the

contamination from leaving

the facility and natural

attenuation would be the best

solution for the groundwater

beyond the facility.

The evaluation

criteria. There are nine

evaluation; criteria that the

EPA uses. The first two are

the threshold criteria.

They're the most important.

And the first one is overall

protection of human health

and the environment. All the

alternatives that were

evaluated in the proposed


. (814) 536-8908AR500033

plan would meet this,

primarily due to the

extraction system set up on

the municipal wells. That

eliminates a way for the

contamination to get into the

drinking water. So for the

current risk, it's protected.

The future risk is what

we're concerned with.

The second threshold

criteria is compliance with

applicable or relevant and

appropriate requirements.

Legally this means that we

must attain legally all

applicable or relevant and

appropriate cleanup standards

of control, and substantive

environmental protection

requirements of the federal

and state governments.

In laymen's terms what

it means is we can't choose

any remediation alternative


(814) 536-8908

AR50003U

which is going to just put

the contamination out in

another form and not meet any

of the existing laws for

d i s c h a r g e and what not. So

it makes sure that you're not

creating a worse problem with

the alternative you choose.

All of t he alternatives,

again, could be designed and

implemen t e d and meet thisi

r e qu ire me n t vThe primary balancing

criteria, the meat of them,

are reduction of toxicity,

mobility or volume. Again,

all the alternatives would

meet this. But the preferred.4

alternative is a proven •

method for cleaning up VOCs

in bedrock. The next one,;

implement ability. All of;

them are imp 1 e me n t ab 1 e . Somei

might be more, difficult duje

to the geology. Some of the


(614) 536-8908ftR500035

other alternatives require

putting in hundreds of wells.

So that would be a little bit

more difficult.

And the preferred

alternative can be

fast-tracked and put in

pretty quickly. Short-term

effectiveness. There's

minimal risk with putting in

the preferred alternative.

Some of the other

alternatives deal with

chemicals that would create

health and safety concerns'.

So they're a short-term

effect and this is a little

bit less so.

Long-term

effectiveness and permanence,

all will achieve this. But

the preferred alternative,

again, is a proven method of

remediation. Cost is the

lowest of the primary


(814) 536-8908

b a l a n c i n g c r i t e r i a . A n d i t

j u s t t u r n s o u t t h a t t h e

p r e f e r r e d a l t e r n a t i v e i s t h e

1 o w.e s t c o s t a l t e r n a t i v e , but

n o t b y m u c h .

T h e m o d i f y i n g c r i t e r i at

are state acceptance, which*

we have from the Pennsylvania

Department of Environmental

Protect ion , and q ommun i t y i

acceptance. That's why we're

her e, .. tonight presenting this.

And, you have until the 17th,

like Carrie said, to put in

any further comments.

Public participation.

December 3rd to January 17th,

4-t' s. a 45-day comment period.

N o r m ally it's a 30-day

comment period, but we

extended it si n c e i t was

through the holidays. Send

it either to myself or to

Carrie, Her name happens to

be on the handout, so I'm '

Sargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc./(814) 536-8908

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3F

sure she'll get more comments

than I.

MS . DEITZEL ;

I think we're both on

i t .

MS. LOWE:

Good. We're both in

the proposed plan too,

actually. One of the last

pages of the proposed plan

has our names and addresses

also. So in conclusion,

again, the preferred

alternative has three

elements, the groundwater

pump and treat is what was

proposed, along with source

area remediation to reduce

the time used to clean up,

and the existing treatment at

the municipal wells.

What happens next?

Hopefully we will amend the

Record of Decision in the

spring of 2000. We hope to


(814) 536-8908AR500038

design a treatment system,

the pump and treat, have a

s h o r t d e s i g n p e riod for it

and begin construction in the

summer of 2000 if all goes

well. So I'll put this slide

back up so you can have our

name and address. If you

just want to jot it down, or

not take anything. But I'd

like ,to open it up for

questions. ..

MS. DEITZEL:

I guess one thing I

forgot to mention is we did

receive a letter which was ;

from a citizens group here in

Williamsport. And it had a

list of questions. I believe

there were 40 questions

attached to ;that .letter. We

received that at the close of

the day on T h.u rsday. So wet

have not addressed all of

those questions, b u t I think


(814) 536-8908

AR500039

the ones that pertain to the

plan that we're talking about

tonight were more or less

covered in the proposed plan.

I will be responding to that

letter, though. I will write

a response to that. And

again, a lot of the

information is in the

library.

And one thing that I

do want to mention is anyone

who is not familiar with the

site or need some

information, if you happen to

go to the library and you see

the file, I think the easiest

way to get up to speed on the

site is to look at the

Records of Decision, one for

'91 and one for '96. Records

of Decision will give you a

summary of the history of the

site, the operating history,

the regulatory history, the


(814) 536-8908RR5000UO

"3F

contaminants of concern andt

the risks associated with

them and all of,the work

that's been done and the

recommendations --.- not

re c ommendations, bu t ,

requirements that were laid

down for us. It's a good

overview if you would like 'to

review it- Does anyone have

questions? Yes.

MR. NICHOLSON :

I'm -Walter Nicholson

in with the water authority.

Starting with the plan, the

procedure is, is this plan

able to be amended or used a

certain number of years or

once this is approved, will

this be the plan for the Ifacility?

MS. L O W E ; . \

N o . A l l t h e s i t e s a r e

in a f i v e - y e a r r e v i e w c y c l e .

So o n c e r e m e d y is


(814) 536-8908

RR5000M

implemented, it's five years

from on-site construction

that we do the review. So

actually the five-year review

for Avco should be ticking

because we've started on-site

construction. I can't give

you the exact date, but it's

probably coming up within the

next two years that we'll do

review. And it will be every

five years after that.

MR. NICHOLSON:

We're still in that?

MS . LOWE :

You will always be in

that until everything is

cleaned up.

MR. NICHOLSON:

The second is maintain

a current o f f - s i t e plan,

which is approved by DEP.

You made the statement that

that present plan is leaving

the water safe for human

ySargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc.

(814) 536-8908AR5000U2

consumption or whatever. ;

What's your basis for that?

In other words, is the goal

that the few off-site wells

would stop water that's

beyond the threshold criteria

from .entering the physical

well a r e a o r i s i t in

conjunction with the

treatment of particles

of - - - . . .

MS . LOWE :

Do you wan t t o take

that?

MR . R D N D E L L :

Obviously, Walt, ini

the beginning, the EPA passedi

the program, through the

system there and w h i c h the

water authority rendered. I

think that p r e t t y m u c h is the

water, would have been treated

by the. DER. Ideally, we want

that Third Street well to

prevent any contaminated


(814) 536-8908

AR5000U3

backup.

MR. NICHOLSON:

I think my question is

in terms of the EPA. What is

the goal in t e r m s o f years or

whatever you create a cleanup

plan that keeps the streams

from reaching West Third

Street?

MR. RUNDELL:

I think the point Jill

was trying to get across in

this phased approach and with

the existing treatment going

on off site, not only at the

municipal water well, which

when it's in use, the water

is treated, but also at the

Third Street and the Elm

Street wells that if we can

stop the contamination at the

boundary of the site,

whatever residual is left

over beyond that would be

picked up by the Third Street


(814) 536-8908

AR5000UU

y

well, and the Elm Street well.

Whatever got beyond that, '

when the system kicked into

service, water to the people

would be treated. So there

would be no exposure route

and no risk at that point. ;

, . And the overall plan

is that once we d o p r e v e n t ;

..the-. off-site migration, the

r e s i du a 1 s , t h r oug h natural ;

attenuation, as well as being

picked up through the ,

existing wells, would

remediate the remaining

contamination.

A n d , t h a t would be .i

done in c on j;unc t i.on with

the five-year review. So

we would be out there ,

periodically to check if our

concept is working. And if

we needed to c h a.n-g e things '

along the line, we can do I

that, add another well or


(814) 536-8908

—————————————————————————————————5T

expand the system at the

boundary. Does that get you?

MR . NICHOLSON :

Agreeing with the

statement that we have final

stripping of the water, meets

all the same criteria, we'll

see about that. But the

statements in the documents

lead one to believe that that

step wouldn't be necessary.

MR. RDNDELL:

Well, that's our

ultimate goal, I guess you

could say, is that once we

put the blocking well system

up at the boundary and stop

anything that's on site from

going off and anything that's

--- you know, once that's in

operation, the residual is

there. Through natural

attenuation over the years,

that would take care of

itself. Some of it would get


(814) 536-8908AR5000U6

picked up by the treatment .

wells off site. If it did

get passed there, like you

had said, it would be

treated. But through the

years, natural attenuation

wo u1d t a ke over. And since

there's nothing being added

to it from the site, because

that's being contained, it .

should go away. That's the

concept behind all of this.

MR. NICHOLSON:

I think it should b e j a

little more clear in the

document at the present time.

I think at the present time;,

the program runs through the

water system there now and to

put in the two existing wells

would be the final step once

• I -_ : . '

MR. RDNDELL;

Any residual is left

over, right. We can clarify


• (814) 536-8908ftRSOOOk?

that later on if necessary.

There would be no point, I

guess, in reissuing this.

But in the final document,

the Record of Decision, when

that's issued, that can be

clarified and stay the same.

MR. NICHOLSON:

And my final question,

in one of the alternatives

for hot spots on site is the

mention of limiting

treatment. Is there any

chance that the Avco could be

used as part of your on-site

technology.

MS . LOWE ;

Let's see, the source

areas?

MR . NI CHOIiSON :

Right. Or is it an

in-situ well, mainly

oxidation?

MS . LOWE :

Air in-situ oxidation.


(814) 536-8908AR5000U8

Yes. I guess that was one of

the alternatives, yes.r MR . NICHOLSON :

T h i s i s mainly the '

center area contaminant that

is a problem for us. This is

a corridor -with-1 different

lenses that contain manganese

through the hydrogeology of

that :area are proposed right

now. But we need secondary

treatment, a second plan of

treatment for manganese. But

if any manganese would get '

off site, and add to what's

already there, there could be

manganese treatment.

MR . f RDNDELL t

This, technology,

particularly when we're

looking afcr a hot spot area,

they're very localized and we

don ' t inject a 1 o t , o f

permanganate, i We just inject

enough rto treat that small


(814) 536-8908AR5000U9

Tr

area. So we were well aware

of the manganese problems or

the potential of having to

treat manganese. That's why

we were careful when we did

the chromium reduction. We

kept a sharp eye on any

changes and potential for

manganese .

MR . NICHOLSON ;

You keep it localized.

MR. RUNDELL:

I asked Jill to put it

up on a map that the two

circles gives you an idea of

how small the hot spot areas

are, so it is fairly

localized within the site

boundary.

MR . Z IMMERMAN i

A n d i t a l s o g i v e s y o u

a n idea o f , w h e n w e i n s t a l l e d

t h e t r e a t m e n t w e l l s t h a t a r e

a t t h e p r o p e r t y b o u n d a r y , i t

t a k e s t h a t T - s h a p e d p l u m e a n d


(814) 536-8908AR500050

b a s i c a l l y c u t s i t i n h a l f .

So d o w n g r a d i n g i t a t the

s o u t h e r n p a r t o f t h e p l u m e!

--- higher concentration from

the hot spots and it cuts it

off, and splits it, in a I

sense, into two plume. s and

continues to shrink due to

the pumping as well as the ,

natural accumulations that

will be going on,.

MR . NICHOLSON :

There., apparently is a

c 1 e an up. Now, the plumes

are 2,000 to 4,000. It

really hasn't changed in the

last ten years or seven

y.e ars, I would, say.

MR . RUNDELL :

- _ ' We haven't really done

any pumping or done any [

active pumping in the hot

spot source areas. So

instead wha,t ., we ' ve^ b e en doing

for the last so many years Is

Sargent ' s Court Reporting Service , Inc .

P ,-. r(814) 536-8908AR50005I

catching it as it moves down.

So we're not really attacking

the worst part, which is the

intention of the new proposal

to attack that.

MR. NICHOLSON:

So in this next two

years, assuming that as soon

as you go through the design

and build phase at your

physical plant, you will then

continue the of f - s i t e

monitoring?

MR. RUNDELL:

Right .

MR . NICHOLSON :

And continue to

evaluate success and

monitoring?

MS. DEITZEL:

Yes.

MR. RUNDELL:

And we mentioned this

five-year review, but during

the five years, we're


(814) 536-8908

AR500052

c o n t i n u i n g to co l l ec t d a t a

and a n a l y z i n g as we go a l o n g .

But by s t a t u t e we have to do

a n o f f i c i a l r e v i e w e v e r y f i v e

y e a r s , bu t we ' 11 c o n t i n u e to

l o o k a t i t .i, ' - fMR . PENNI S : '

In the meantime, the

module will continue under '

the agreement with the state,

the particular wells on the

site, and that's on a

quarterly basis, so we'll '

always have data throughout

everyyear. \

MS . DEITZEL ;

Anything else?MR . OCHS ;

I'm Michael Ochs. The

spelling is O-C-H-S. I ;

mention that because in the-

11/21/96 transcript of the

hearing for the proposed

remediation, my name was

misspelled. Some of the same


(814) 536-8908AR500053

people are here tonight that

were here four years ago and

the questions that I raised

then, Mr. Dennis said he

would look into them. Mr.

Bruce Rundell, here again

tonight, said he would look

into them, and those

questions are still hanging.

Since I'm only limited

to two questions at a time, I

guess I would first go to the

proposed plan of December 3rd

in the first paragraph and

ask the first and se c'ond

question that I conveyed on

behalf of the neighborhood

council to Ms. Deitzel.

Namely, I'm wondering exactly

what the definition is of the

Avco Lycoming Superfund Site,

geographically the

definition.

MS . LOWS ;

L e g a l l y b y d e f i n i t i o n ,


(814) 536-8908

f lR50005U

the site is anything that

includes the contamination,

the facility and then it

would be that T-shaped plume,

anything --- that groundwater

is considered the site, sol

guess legally anything above

that would be considered parti

of the. site.

MR. OCHS: (

So you're saying the

Super fund Site then extends

from First Street to I guess

it's Route 18015.

MR. RUNDELL:A

In the groundwater

aquifer that's the extent of

the co n t amination.

MR. OCHSi

So the.neighborhood of

Elm Park and the Municipal

Water,. Authority grounds are

all part of the Superfund

Site; is that correct? ;

MS. LOWEt


(814) 536-8908RR500055

573——

Groundwater.

MR. RUNDELL!

The groundwater. It's

a legal question and it gets

complicated because we have a

facility and we talk about

the facility boundaries and

then sometimes we'll mention

that as the site. But

legally it's the area where

there is unacceptable human

health risk or ecological

risk, which when y'o u ' r e

talking about groundwater is

the entire groundwater plume

above whatever your risk

criteria are.

MR. OCHS:

How does that differ

from Operable Unit One or is

it similar?

MR. RUNDELL:

W e l l , y o u m e a n - - -

w e l l , w e ' r e g e t t i n g r i d o f

t h e o p e r a b l e u n i t


(814) 536-8908

f lR500056

designations just because it

gets confusing.

MR. DENNIS:

Well, the previous

Operable Unit One would have

been the groundwater beneath

the facility property and any

contamination identified on

f a c i J. i t y p r op e r t y . , And then

O 0 2 was anything; beyond thei

facility property.

MR. OCRS:

. . , So n o w O U l and OU2 are

e 1 i m i n a t e d f r o m t h e S u p e r f u n d

s e t u p ? t ! •

MS . L O W E :

Y e s .

M R . D E N N I S ;

Yes .

.: MR . R U N D E L L ;

, W e s o r t o f s t u c k t h e m

t o g e t h e r , a n d so h o p e f u l l y we

w o n ' t have t o t a l k a b o u t O U 1

a n d O U 2 a n y m o r e . :

MR. O C H S :


(814) 536-8908RR500057

My second question

then is, when you say in the

last sentence of the first

paragraph that the

contamination exists beneath

the property and extends

southward to where the

railroad crosses Lycoming

Creek, there are two railroad

bridges that cross Lycoming

Creek. Neither one is in

use. Which one are you

referring to, the

southernmost or the

northernmost?

MR. RONDELL:

It's hard to see, but

there is --- yes, there's a

southern one that is down by

the --- it looks like there's

a railroad bridge down there,

but some ovals down there and

I can't really read them.

MS . LOWE :

I c an p r o b a b l y p o i n t


(814) 536-8908

f lR500058

to them, right over here.

MR . OCHS ; ;

If I could just pointt

out figure two, the very last

page, of the plan. There you

see two railroad bridges that

cross t h e L y c o m i n g Creek.

The first paragraph is not

very clear whichrailroad

bridge you.'.re referring to.

MS . LOME ; ,

I'll have them change

that in the records.

,. MR. OCHS;

.1 would also suggest

if you include some street

names on your map. Perhaps alarger m a p o f , t h e Avco site

would be app.r opr ia t e to show*

the f e a t u r e s y o u ' v e d i s c u s s e d

i n , t h e p r o p o s e d p l a n , n a m e l y

t he c e n t r a l s e c t i o n , the '

e a s t e r n p a r k i n g , l o t , w h i c h I

b e l i e v e is a hot s p o t , n e a r

W i l d w o o d B o u l e v a r d and I •

Sargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc;

(814) 536-8908RR500059

would like to see the

north/south stream channel

more clearly indicated. It's

not indicated at all.

Also, if you compare

this map with an earlier one,

namely the third quarter

report of July of 1992 from

the ERM Group, the '92 map

shows MW10 in the upper

left-hand corner. That is

absent from this current map

and it's not clear to me how

these wells appear to

disappear and why some are

numbered and some lettered.

It is also not clear

to me the line of the Avco

property on Oliver Street.

It occurs to me that if Avco

or Textron has purchased

property on Oliver Street and

that would then, I think - - -

should be indicated as part

of their property, that is to


(814) 536-8908RR500060

say the broken line there ---

I guess that's intended to 'be

a broken line - - - should be

Oliver. Street, if my

assumption is correct. And

your property line for Avco

.should be e xptande d i f i t '

acquires other neighborhood

properties.

The be 1 1 way , that is

to say Route 220, 180 and

Rou t e 1 5 , t he b e 1 1 way is not

s ho wn on the map, but I

believe there are some air

stripping towers below the

beltway towards the

Susquehanna River. That is,

if you see the previous map

in f.igure one, >you t see Rout'es

220 and 180 and 15. I would

hope you would improve Figure

Two to include those super

highways and where the air

stripping towers are in

relationship to this.*

Sargent's" Court Reporting service. Inc.

, (814) 536-8908AR500061

MS . LOWE :

Randy, do you have

something?

MR . FARMERIE ;

In the area further

south is still north, of the

beltway. It's above the

southern railroad tracks,

it's above the bridge and it

follows south of the bridge

and is still north of the

beltway. It shows one

location, but doesn't show

the other location. The air

stripper used on West Third

Street is right about where

the well, just above ---

where Joseph's Road is, just

above the railroad tracks.

MR . RUNDELL ;

O n e o f o u r p r o b l e m s i s

w e c a n a d d m o r e m a p s , b u t I

g u e s s we t r i e d to do i t on

two m a p s . I f you do a

r e g i o n a l m a p , y o u l o se


(814) 536-8908

A R 5 0 0 0 6 2

detailing and if you try to

do another map, you're always

balancing what you want to

zoom in and zoom out.

MR . PARMERI E :

These air strippers

are located right around this

area that's t'he very south

end of the line. There is a

stripper right over where it

says Elm Park Recovery Well

and the other two strippers

are around the Textron plant

so those are the only four j

clusters that are up there.

MR . OCHS ;i

Why _ doesn't the map

then include and identify the

four air, .strippers?

MR . RUKDELL :

Yes, I might add that

you me ntioned something about

the monitoring wells

de s ignation, s ome have

letters and some have


, (814) 536-8908RR500063

numbers. They happen to be

various studies that were

done. You might notice that

there's a couple like MWJ and

a few others, they were

probably put in for a

specific purpose and the

contractor just gave them a

name. It doesn't necessarily

representing anything

astronomical, it's just a

number designation. There's

nothing special about it.

MS . DEITZEL :

Any other questions

of the committee? Mr.

Nicholson?

MR. NICHOLSON:

If Textron desired to

do anything different in the

Third Street area, would that

be a matter for DEP to deal

with or would the EPA get

involved with that in terms

of modifying or changing the


(814) 536-8908AR500061*

Third Street - - - ? . 'I

f M R . DENNIS;

I think it would be g i n

as a matter with DEP who

would contact us just to ge, t

confirmation that we're in

a g re ement with, what they're

proposing vto^ do, change or ,

modify. We have a pretty

good correspondence between

the .agencies, particularly on

Superfund sites so I would

think if.we have any changes

that we're proposing, the ;

state is the f ,i r s t agency

that we notify and the

reciprocal,is true also.

MR. NICHOLSON;

You mean that's part

Of , - -?, . ,„ : , :

MR . DENNIS t

S u r e , t h a t w o u l d be [

t h e f i r s t l eve l c o n t a c t , b u t

i f i t was , t h o u g h t any m a t t e r

t h a t w o u l d , i m p a c t , o r p e o p l e


(814) 536-8908 AR500065

would notice a change going

on, the local government

would be informed as well.

MR . OCHS ;

Would you help 'a lay

person understand the

difference between air

stripping, and air sparging

and soil vapor extraction?

MR . RUNDELL ;

Air stripping, when we

talk about pumping and

treating and air stripping,

what that entails is we pump

the groundwater and the

volatile contaminants out of

the ground and put it through

an above ground air stripper,

which basically we trickle

the water down through the

top of the cylinder and there

are a lot of particles or

different materials inside

this cylinder that makes the

water flow through many


(814) 536-8908

AR500066

pathways. At the same time,

you blow air up; from the

b o t to m and t h e a i r strips the

volatiles out of the water,

that's what air stripping is.

Air sparging and soil

vapor extraction is all done

in the ground. What we do is

you have --- in concept it'^s

the same thing as the air

stripper, but it's

subsurface. You have two

wells. The first well goes

down into the aquifer, and

it's in that well you inject>

air so the air bubbles up

through the aquifer until it

comes t o t h e t o p o f the water

table. And above the water

table you have your core

s p a c e i s basically filled

with air and very little

water and in that area you

stick a second well that youI

e x t r a c t . • t - h e . - a i - r t h a t ' s i n t h e


(814) 536-8908AR500067

core space. So the intent is

when you bubble air into the

aquifer, the bubbles strip

out the volatile organic

contamination from the

aquifer, and those bubbles

migrate up into the

unsaturated zone where the

air is sucked off by the

higher well, which is the air

sparging well. So the

physical concept is the same.

You just do it all

subsurface.

MR. OCHSi

In both cases then,

the volatiles are removed

from the water and go into

the air?

MR. RUNDELL:

A n d t h e y ' r e p u t i n t o

t h e a i r a n d t h e n w e p u t i t

t h r o u g h a c a r b o n f i l t e r f o r

- - - i t s t r i p s t h e o r g a n i c s

out of the a i r . So w h e n i t


(814) 536-8908

AR500068

comes out and is finally

released into the atmosphere,

all the volatiles are taken

ou t . _,

MR. O C H S s

Where do they go?

MR . RUNDELL ; '.

I n t o a can of carbon

and then they're either ;

disposed of or regenerated.:

And regeneration basically,

is they heat it up and burn

off whatever is in there.

MR . OCHS ;

On s i t e ? ;MR . RUNDELL ;

No. The carbons,

they're basically big drums

of various sizes, it depends

on how big of an operation

you have. But^you have two

of them. You h a v e o n e that

you're using and the

replacement one. When then

one canister gets filled up


(814) 536-8908

AR500069

with contaminants, you take

it off site to either a

disposal place or to a

recycling and then you stick

the second one out so you

always have two on-site as a

general - - - .

MR . DENNI5 :

Just let me add one

thing. The soil vacuum

extraction, keep in mind you

can also have that without

treating the groundwater.

That is, if you have

contaminated soil you can put

a well in and put a vacuum on

it and just suck air through

the surface, through the soil

half way and that will

vaporize what contaminants

are in the soil. You bring

them up and you can condense

them and contain them as

well. So SVE works both in

conjunction with air sparging


(814) 536-8908

ftR5n0070

and also for a contaminated

soil horizon as we 11 without

b r ing up any groundwater or

purging any groundwater.

MR . OCHS ;

. Well, I suppose my

basic que s t i on and the most

important question that I

have for you is, and you may

not all address this because

it's not discussed in this

plan, but it has , t p do with

the historical use of the

contaminated water by people

who had private wells. Avco

began production at the site

in 1920 as I understand. And

according to a press release,

contamination began in the

1930s, discovered in 1985.

That's a 50 year period

during which private well

user s., in the area may have. i

been ,e xpo s e d t o t h i s water

either through ingestion or

Sargent ' s Court Reporting .Service , Inc .

(814) 536-8908AR50007I

vapors from showering and

dermal, skin contact.

Now, several years

ago, Mr. Dennis acknowledged

that there were some private

wells. And we do know that

Mr. Phillip Boob, who is or

was employed by the principal

responsible party, Textron

- - - I believe he was the vice

president of operations

there, he did conduct a

survey in the early 1990s of

residents and homeowners in

the area who may have had orf

in fact, did have private

wells .

I have not seen the

conclusions to that study.

However, I do know that in

the public health assessment

done by the Agency for Toxic

Substances and Disease

Registry, no mention is made

of that survey of private


(814) 536-8908

RR500072

———————————— —————————————— - —————— To

well users. And in the risk

characterization and toxicity

assessment and the

conclusions there, again, it

is said t h a t . there was

historically no use of

private wells in the

contaminated area.

It seems to me that

the mischar a c terization in

the public health assessment

was made on the basis thatthere was a belief that there

we re no private wells used

over this 50-year time

p e r i od. Surely, there must

be data indicating - - - . =

MR . DENNIS :

Could I pause for one

second?

MR . OCHS :

That would first shed

some 1 i g h t on the subject.

MR . DENNIS ;

Well, probably if you


(814) 536-8908

RR500073

~~7T

went to the Bulletin for the

Geological Surveys, you might

find some wells that were in

existence. I'm sure there

were private wells 50 years

ago. I don't dispute that

fact. When we first started

the Avco site as a Superfund

site and they hired their

first contractor when they

chose to participate in the

investigation and the

cleanup, they did a well

survey, which should be, and

if it's not I do apologize,

in the library part of the

administrative record which

as part of the RAFS. And I

recall them doing a survey

within the three-mile radius

and there may be one, but I

don't recall any residential

wells being found, there

might have been a well that

existed at a business


(814) 536-8908

somewhere, but I don't think

we e v e r - - - I think we did

make contact and found that

that well was no longer in

use or not even existent.

Mr. Nicholson, if you can

jump in here, do you know of

any wells in the immediate

vicinity of the site or of

the area, residential use

we 11 s ? ,

MR . RUNDELL ;

Other than the one you

referred to?

MR . DENNIS ;

Right. By all means,

we would have contacted those

people an d made all efforts

to sample that well without

question. I <l o n ' t know where

you' re. getting y.ou r facts,

but ;!• don't dispute over 50

years, I'm cure everybody in

the area was using a private- -• ' •* *• ,well and ob viou s 1 y , there's


,(814) 536-8908HR500075

73

nothing we can do about that

there was no regulations or

laws in existence up until

the 1970s when the agency was

founded. So I'll look into

that, but I am almost 100

percent certain that we did

not find one residential

well. I think it was a

business well that we did

find that was either out of

use or I don't think we could

get access to get a sample of

that well.

MR . FARMERIE :

If there had been one

last used at Blair Sporting

Goods as far as the radius

--- it had been used. It had.

been i.n use, but it was no

longer at the time.

MR. DENNIS:

R i g h t . I k n e w i t w a s

a b u s i n e s s , b u t w e w e n t n o t

o n l y w i t h i n t h e p l u m e , w e

____________________________________________Sargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc.

(814) 536-8908

&R500076

;—TTiwent pretty f,ar beyond t h e ;

plume. I should^say Avco's

contractor at the time went

pretty far beyond the

existing plume a n d did not

find any residential wells.

Now, if I stated differently

beforehand,! do apologize,

but I don't recall ever

making that statement. So if

youknow of any residentialwells, please inform us.

We'll .be more than happy to

collect; a sample and ---. i

MR. O C H S ;

The letter from ERM,;

Richard Rpbleski (phonetic)

of July 14th, 1992. to Mayor

Preziosi (phonetic) of

Williamsport indicates at

that t i m e a total of 44 |

proper ty owners- reported i

having wells within the

survey area. That's in 1992.

I would think even more would


(814) 536-8908

7T

be found in the record dating

back to the mid 1930s.

MR . DENNI5 :

But I think of those

44 wells, I don't think there

was one active well except

for the business well.

MR . OCHS :

I'm talking about the

historical - - - .

MR . RUNDELL :

That is the historical

record, we believe, when they

do their search, they go

through all the historical

records, they contact the

State of Pennsylvania that

has records of where the

wells are drilled.

MR . DENNI5 :

I think they went

d o o r - t o - d o o r .

MR . RUNDELL :

That's where the 40

came from.


(814) 536-8908f lR500078

MR. OCHS:

This survey was

a residential well survey

given to over 750 persons

with property located

within and adjacent to the

area including the!

ground wat e r - - - .

MR . DENNIS :

I don/t think they

relied on this. They went

out door-to-door and sent

letters.. But I don't think

they were actual existing

wells. They may have had

wells :On their property, but

they were either defunct, or

they weren't accessible, or

they were closed, abandoned,

what have, yo.u, but we could

not get in there to get a ,

sample. They may have

a cknowledge d, yes, we do have

a well out in the pump house. .- ' ' js o m e w h e r e , b e h i n d t h e w o o d s .


(814) 536-8908

AR500079

77

behind the barn wherever it

may have been, but it's not

in service. We don't use it.

We're on public water supply

now, et cetera.

MR . OCHS :

The recorded data in

the conclusions of the ATSDR

were in a public health

assessment done by the

Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

that suggests that there was

no historical use of

contaminated water by private

well users because no private

wells existed. That simply

cannot be the case.

MR . DENNIS :

Historical, going back

like 30 years or 20 years?

MR . OCHS :

Well, I would say from

the mid 30s to 1985.

Obviously, in 1992 - - - .

MR . DENNIS :


(814) 536-8908

QR500080

, They might not exist,

right. f B u t whether or not'

people were drinking

contaminated water from their

residential wells in 1948, I

have no idea. I don't even

know if these people are

still around. That may be

true. ; It may not be true.

It's a. moot point. There's

nothing we c an do about it

now anyway .

MR . OCHS :

.It seems t o m e the

scenarios for risk assessment

never i n c l u d e d - - - they were

all hypothetical. They never

included the actual

possibility that these people

used contaminated water for

50 years.. i?1R. RUNDELL; !

When they do the risk

assessment .--•- and we don't

have any risk assessors here,


(814) 536-8908RR500081

they do it on existing data.

We go out and collect samples

of what the conditions are

today. We can't hypothesize

scientifically about what

might have been going on 20

years ago, 50 years ago. We

can only use the present

data. It's legally

defensible in court.

So there is no

scientific method to go back

and project if some of those

40 wells were being used 30

years ago, we have no idea

what kind of concentrations

would have been in those

wells 30 years ago. It's

only speculative and we can't

do a scientific study on

speculation.

MR. OCHS:

T h e A T S D R r e p o r t o f

S e p t e m b e r 1 9 9 3 s a y s

p r e s e n t l y , n o p r i v a t e w e l l s


(814) 536-8908

A R 5 0 0 0 8 2

are in use and it is belie v!e d

that no p r i v a t e w e l l s were ;

ever in the plume of1 *-! *• I

con c e ntration. Mr. Boob

£ ound 4 4 . . i; ' '-.( I

MR. RUNDELL: '

, He found 44 within the

study area. And that study,

should be i n t h e ;

administrative record. We

can go back and look to see

where those 44 wells might

have been.

MR. OCHS;s

. It's not clear that

it's i n t he administrative ,

report. ;

MR. RUNDELL:

It should be.

^S. DEITZEL;

. D i d y o u say their '

wells would have been listed

whether or not they were in

operation?

MR. RUNDELL:


.(814) 536-8908

AR500083

We'd have to check

exactly where those wells

were if they were in

existence in that survey,

but we don't believe that

they - - - .

MR . OCHS :

The actual historical

data that would lend evidence

to a conclusion as to whether

or not there was or was

not use of contaminated

water - - - .

MR . DENNIS :

I think there's data

that determines there was use

of the well. Now, whether or

not the water was

contaminated, how would

anyone know?

MR . OCHS :

A c c o r d i n g t o B a r n e t t ,

t h e c o n t a m i n a t i o n w a s

b e l i e v e d t o h a v e b e g u n i n t h e

1 9 3 0 s .


(814) 536-8908

MR . PENNI S";

Does that mean it went

to every well that was in

use'? Not necessarily. It

may or may not have. Like

Bruce said/ it's all

speculative. And I don't

know.

MR . OCHS :

It's not speculative

as to whether or not there

were private wells.

MR . DENNIS ;

I'm not questioning

that. I'm sure there were.

Now, as to the water quality

in t hose wells, I don't know.

MS . DEITZEIi ; '

I [ t h i n k w h a t w e ' r e

t r y i n g t o s a y i s tha t w h e r e

t h e s e w e l l s a re l o c a t e d and

w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e y ' r e i n u s e

does i i ' t n e c e s s a r i 1 y have ;

a n y t h i n g t o do w i t h t he s i z e

o f t h e p l u m e . F i f t y ( 5 0 ) ;


(814) 536-8908

RR500085

years ago, that plume might

have been much smaller.

MR. RUNDELL:

It may not have even

existed.

MS. DEITZEL:

There's no way for us

to know what the size of the

plume was and when it was

formed. We just can't get

data from 50 years ago. No

one was looking at those

things.

MR. O C H S :

If I may turn my

attention then to workers on

site who, over a 50-year

period may have been exposed

to contaminants in the

plating process, in the

degreasing operations, in the

chemical storage areas, in

the on-site lagoon area and

so forth. And some of those

workers may have lived in the


(814) 536-8908

AR500086

5T

neighborhood and had private

wells, too. There must be

some historic data to get

some evidence as to whether

or not they suffered from the

full effects of being exposed

to those contaminants on

site.

MS . DEITZEL ;

That's the problem

there in that w e d o n ' t know

w hat kind of contamination

there was 50 years ago. And

even if you look at health

conditions o f s o m e of the

workers in the present day,

we still have no way ofknowing what they were doing

with their lives over thelast 50 years, and we are

beyond.being able to measure

two t hi ngs, whether they came

from the site or other things

they did in their lifetime.,

•So we cannot tell what things


(814) 536-8908RR500087

115

MR . OCHS ;

But you've made no

effort to find out either.

The ATSDR report says that

questions concerning

morbidity or mortality often

cannot be definitely answered

by conventional analysis and

surveillance. It seems to me

a historical retrospective

would be conventional

analysis and surveillance.

And that historical

retrospective has not been

done .

MS . DEITZEL ;

W e l l , I t h i n k w e ' r e

t a l k i n g a b o u t - - - o n e , w e ' r e

t a l k i n g a b o u t a r e p o r t f r o m

s o m e o t h e r a g e n c y , t h e A g e n c y

f o r T o x i c S u b s t a n c e s a n d

D i s e a s e R e g i s t r y . B u t a l s o I

c a n ' t r e p l y t o t h i s . O n c e

a g a i n , t h e r e ' s n o w a y f o r


(814) 536-8908AR500088

them to establish today what

the exposures in the

workplace were 50 years ago

or over the last 50 years.

This agency doesn't .

participate in those types of

studies. So OSHA perhaps

might be s o mewhere you can go

for data, but this is not

data t h at we have.

MR . OCHS :

Just as t he re was no

toxicologist here four years

a go to answer this question,

there is none tonight either.

TheATSDR report says on the

first page t ha t" a review of

mortality data did not

indicate an adverse outcome

for W i 1 1 i a m s port' 'city for

cancer. Ho w e'v er, this could

not address a small subset of

the city in the environs of

the plant.r MR . RONDEtiL ;


(614) 536-6908AR500089

ffT

That's because the

data that they had probably

didn't have addresses of

where people were that had

whatever impacts that they

were looking at.

MR . OCHS :

A small subset of the

city in the environs of a

plant apparently indicated

higher than average

carcinogenic - - - .

MR. RUNDELL:

I don't have the

document in front me. That's

not the interpretation I got

from what you just read.

MR . OCHS i

The ATSDR report says

that 75.2 cancer deaths would

be expected annually in

Williamsport city, while an

average of 78 cancer deaths

were observed in 1979 to '89

period, a nonsignificant


(814) 536-8908flR500090

d i f f e r e n c e , ' •

MR . R U N D E L L t

B u t s e e , t h a t ' s f o r

the w h o l e a r e a of ;

W i l l i a m s p o r t , t h a t ' s n o t

b r e a k i n g t h i s d o w n . T h e i r

d a t a s a y s t h i s d o e s n ' t a p p e a r

- - - t h eir d a t a d o e s n ' t b r e a k

t h i s d o w n i n t o w h e r e i ni

Williamsp o;r t those health

effects were being seen. It

was just within the city j

limits of Wi 1 liamsport.

MR . OCHS ;

It would be helpful to

know what small subset of the

city in the environs of the'

p 1 a n't - - - .

MR . RtJNDELL ; '.

That ' s their ;

qualifying statement that

say s that, you k n o w , from

their data set, they can't

say yes or no whether a small

^subset t h'a t they can't really


(814) 536-6908AR50009I

identify in their data set

due to the site where

impacted.

MS. DEITZEL:

Mr. Ochs, I can give

you --- actually you can use

that 800 number on that FAX

sheet and leave a message

requesting to speak with

Bucky Walters. Bucky Walters

is with ATSDR and would be in

a much better position to

explain that report to you.

MR. OCHSi

I've been in touch

with Mr. Walters.

MS, DEITZEL:

I kind of want to come

back to what we're talking

about tonight, which is the

groundwater, whether or not

there historically has - - - at

this time, the groundwater

that we're trying to clean up

is not reaching anybody that


(814) 536-8908

flR500092

we're aware of and doesn't

have an impact. So I hear

your question. I hear your

concern. But I think it's

something we need to address

either through letters or

through contacting ATSDR,

doing a conference call with

them, but.I don't think we're

going to be able to answer

satisfactorily.MR. O C H S ;

I wanted to get thes^e

questions on record. I'll

defer to anyone else who has

any quest ion s .

MR . DENNIS i

If you look on page

19, they made alj. these

statements, but ;at the end:/

they mention that, the purpose

of the plan was to, come up

with a plan of action. And

their final- statement is no

public health actions are


(614) 536-8908AR500093

indicated at this time. So

it was their feeling at the

time this report was written

that there was no need to

take any public health

actions and that's - - - .

MR . OCRS :

That was based on

there being no historical

uses of private wells in the

area. There was no reference

to Mr. Boob's survey in the

early 1990s. It would be

helpful if someone like Mr.

Boob was here tonight. We

mentioned this four years

ago. There is no one from

the principal responsible

party here, no PRP is here to

address these concerns. I

think it's a gap in the law

that when you have these

meetings, open meetings that

no one representing the

principal responsible party


(814) 536-8908flR50009U

i s h e r e t o a d d r e s s q u e s t i o n s .

MR . D E N N I S ;

• T h e y w e r e i n v i t e d .

M R . B A R R :

I have a question. '

What are the contaminants?

MR. RUNDELL;

There are basically ji

two types of contaminants.

The one in the western

parking lot area, which is

--- you can see the left

circle, there's a parking lot

the furthest to the west up

in that area w_here there's a

whole bun c h, o f , we 1 1 s .

There/ s chromium

contamination that is

i so 1 a t e d i n that ;par ki ng lotarea. And that is the area

that they've been treating by

i n j e c t ing mo 1 a 8 s;e s > i n t o the;

ground with the intent to

reduce rt he t chromium.

Chromium is toxic .when it's' a


(814) 536-8908AR500095

hexagon and you can reduce it

to f i v e - a - g o n form that's not

toxic and not mobile. And

that system has been working

for a couple years now and it

is performing very

satisfactorily.

The other area which

is shown by the plume is the

--- that is the volatile

plume and there are basically

three contaminants there.

There is the TCE, which is

trichloroethylene; DCE, which

is dichloroetyhlene, and

vinyl chloride. And they're

related to each other in a

sense that TCE can break

down. Through biological

activities, it can break down

from TCE to DCE and then the

DCE breaks down to vinyl

chloride. That's part of the

natural process that we

mentioned. But those are the


(814) 536-8908

AR500096

three volatile organics that

are out t h e r e * . :

MR. B A R R t

* And the cadmium?

MR. R U N D E L L :

T h e r e < s^eome cadmium

that's up in the chromium ;

area. That's where the

cadmium is. That's not

r e a l l y a major concern in

that area. It's really the

chromium.

MR . BARR ! I 'r No me r cu ry ?

MR. RONPEIiLi

No. Those are the

o'n e s t h a t ' a r e - - - - ;

particularly when you talk

about metals, there's ;

naturally occurring metals.

The on es we mentioned are the

ones that are causing the (

health concern and you get

higher levels and you can ---

we do a risk calculation on


(814) 536-8908

RR500097

all the metals that we

analyze for we have chromium.

I was going to say, I think

cadmium might have been a

minor concern, but I don't

think it was a major one.

They were associated in the

same area, but I don't recall

the cadmium.

MR . BARR :

One of the things I

didn't find when I read the

plan or in any of the

documents was, is there a

clear idea of any time line

between performance criteria

regarding addressing things

today? You gave no idea

where we come from and where

we're going with this and

when we will arrive.

MS . LOWE :

W e l l , w e h o p e a t t h e

l a s t s l i d e s h o w t o h a v e

s o m e t h i n g u n d e r c o n s t r u c t i o n


(814) 536-8908AR500098

during this summer.

MR . BARR :

I don't mean in terms

of physical, I mean, where

a re - - - ;

MS . LOWE ;

How long it will t a k e

t o clean it., u p ? - - -

MR . B A R R ;i

, - - - w h e r e are we now.

I mean, where will thisi

r erne d i a t i on p r og r am get us

to? <. ,

MS . LOWE ; |

I think, that we !

haven't done enough design :to

fully zero in on how long it

will take, but we?. re hoping

we can get good results

within the next 10 to 15

years-. : We don't know yet

because it hasn't started. !

We haven ' t done any sampli ng .

If in 10 to 15 years, it will

be cleaned up to the MCL,


r (814) 536-8908

A R S 0 0 0 9 9

57

which is the maximum

contaminant level and can be

turned off. That will be

determined because we go on,

as we will keep sampling

MR. OCHS:

Mr. Ochs again. In

reference to the last

question from James B a r r , is

the announcement on April

13th, 1992 regarding the EPA

announcement of significant

d i f f e r e n c e s under the

remedies selected --- are

those adjustments still in

effect? Shall I read them,

the Record of Decision used

30 years as a time frame to

estimate costs for treating

the bad water. In other

words, the EPA has since

determined that ground water

extraction and treatment

would continue until the

remediation levels are met


(814) 536-8908AR500IOO

regardless of the actual t i m e

frame needed to attain the '

level?

MR . RUNDELL :

'-•-Yes. •

MS. ' D EIT Z E L :

- T r u e . |

MR. R U N D E L L :

The 30 years we use is

a standard we u s e a t about .

all sites. It's a magic

n u m b e r t h a t ' s just 30 years^.

Nothing specific about it.

' MS. LOWE:

That's h o w t h e cost is

derived, using 30 years.

MR. OCHS;

And secondly, it

states that pumping <

individual recovery wells

could be discontinued upon

attainment of cleanup goals.

However, due to seasonal,

annual ground water ;

fluctuations, the E PA intends


(814) 536-8908HR500IOI

to require the attainment of

the remediation levels for 12

consecutive quarters to

ensure that it is attained

and maintained. This will

ensure the remediation levels

despite seasonal and - - - .

MS . LOWS :

The new ROD amendment

which we'll be writing next

can contain that.

MR . RUNDELL :

That's standard also.

One of the things you see as

the contamination levels go

down, it's not a straight

line. They go down. They go

up. But the general trend is

down. So the first time you

h i t y o u r goal doesn't mean

it's going to stay there. It

might go up. It might go

back down. We have to

continue to monitor it and we

have to make sure it's


(814) 536-8908flR500IQ2

—————————————————————— 100reached it and not just a

o n e - t i m e - t h i n g .

MR . OCHS i

The third one says

that the ROD states that

ground water remediation

levels must be met throughout

the area of containment,

which was defined as the edge

of the site property where

contamination was furthest .

detected. However, EPA

intends to ensure the ground

water remediation levels are

met throughout the entire '•

area bounded the facility and

property boundaries, not just

at the boundaries as referred

to; - - - , !

MR . RUNDELL ; *

I think that language

m o r e o r less typifies the oldi

operable unit one and two

scenario, which we're getting

past. So now instead of


(814) 536-8908

f tR500 !03

using those boundaries that

you defined there, it's the

entire plume.

MR . OCHS :

And lastly, from April

13th of '92, clarification.

The Record of Decision states

that a certain detection

limit will be used in tests

to determine whether ground

water remediation levels are

met. The EPA's intent is

that a sample quantification

--- that's a sample

quantitation limit - - - will

be sufficiently

representative of that

detection limit in accordance

with standard EPA levels.

MR . RUNDBLL :

That's the same also.

MR . OCHS :

I can't hear the

response .

MR . RUNDELL :

JSargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc.

(814) 536-8908AR500IOU

T h a t w o u l d b e t h e ;

s a m e . • '•i

M R . O C H S !

I have other questions

if no one else does.

MS . DEITZEL ; !

; G o a h e a d .

MR . OCHS ; ,

Will the hot spot

areas get hotter with time?

MR. RDNDELL;

NO . ; »i

MR . OCHS ; ; ;

Most important, I'mi

quoting page seven of the

proposed plan, the mosti '

important short-term

objective is to create a :

barrier to f u r t he r off-site

migration of the dissolved

VOC plume through the design,

installation and

implementat i on of the

proposed containment portion

of the^ site. Is there any

Sargent ' s Court Reporting Service , Inc .

(814) 536-8908RR500I05

danger to the neighborhood if

this barrier is not in place?

MR. RUNDELL;

No. The barrier is

for the ground water

c o n tam ination and the public

--- the public water meets

all regulations in the state.

MR. OCHS:

Are you saying that as

of today, there is no use of

any private wells in the

Superfund Site?

MR. RUNDELL;

To our knowledge,

that's true.

MR. OCHS;

And t hat knowledge is

b a s e d upon ---?

MR. RUNDBLL;

A s u r v e y t h a t ' s in the

a d m i n i s t r a t i v e r e c o r d , o r i t

s h o u l d b e . T h e y w e n t d o o r t o

d o o r a n d k n o c k e d o n p e o p l e ' s

d o o r s a n d s e n t t h e m l e t t e r s .


(814) 536-8908

AR500 I06

TTJT

And p e o p l e sa id yes or no i f

t hey had t h e m , and t h a t ' s

w h e r e t h e 4 4 n u m b e r c a m e

f r o m . .

MR . O C H S :

That goes back to my

question in writing, when did

such wells get surveyed,

question 17. Question 18,

when were the well owners andkusers advised of the danger

of continued use. Question

19, w h en were the wells

closed or capped? Twenty j

(20), was any health study

performed on long-term

private well users? Twenty-

one (21), was any health

studyperformed on Avco ;

workers who were exposed to

the chemicals in the work jip 1 a c e . Twen t y - t wo* (22), was

any heal th> ;s tudy done for

those tha't;\got double

exposure, in the^work place


(814) 536-8908AR500I07

and at home. And 23, if

private wells were used for

various purposes, what were

the dangers, for example, of

drinking, bathing, showering,

food preparation, watering

vegetable gardens, feeding

pets, watering lawns, filling

pools and fish tanks, car

washing, clothes washing, et

cetera?

MR. RUNDELL;

I t h i n k t h o s e

potential effects would have

been addressed in the risk

assessments because it

doesn't matter how people are

exposed. It's the same.

They would address - - - .

MR. OCHS;

As I recall in some of

the literature there was some

suggestion that two liters a

day, anything more than that

would indicate a danger. And


(814) 536-8908AR500I08

TUT

I think that an average

person using a private well

in the contaminated area

would use more than two

l i t e r s - - - .

MS . DEITZEL ; :

T h e a m o u n t o f two

liters per day is the amount

that the toxicologist - - - .

MR. RUNDELL:

• This is a standard

number for how much someone

drinks a day, water. Two 'm

liters is a pretty reasonable

number . " • • • ' • ' • ' . . ' :

' MS. DEITZEL;

In other words, when

they calculate this, they

usually assume that an adult

would be c on sum ing two liters

a day and then they take two

li'ters'.a day times X number

of years at this exposure

level and come up with a ;

number that indicates whether


' ' (814) 536-8908A R 5 0 0 I 0 9

or not there is a problem.

MS. L O W E :

Again, our surveys

indicate that no one is using

a well in the contaminated

ground water. They're all

being supplied public

drinking water which meets

all the requirements.

MR . OCHS :

You might say as of

what date there was no - - -

somewhere in the scenario

s e ction where you post

hypothetica11y what might

happen, there was an

indicator that the danger

exceeded E PA guidelines by a

factor of one. I wasn't sure

wha t that - - - .MR. RUNDELL;

If something exceeded

one - - - .

MS . LOWB ;

T h e h a z a r d r a n k i n g .


(814) 536-8908

H R 5 0 0 I I O

MR . R O N D - E L L ;

T h e r e ' s a h a z a r d

r a n k i n g . T h e r e ' s t w o w a y s t oI

calculate risk. One is a!

cancer risk which is usually

the tenth to the minus some

number. < And then there's

a Is o a - - - .

MR. O C H S ;

This was for the Inoncarcinogenic indices for

scenarios B, C, D, E, F & G,

all hypothetical ground water

exposures . - * . ; . I

MR . RUNDELL ; •

Ri gh t , t ho s e ;

hyp o t h e t i c a l - - - . !

MR .> OCRS :

They e xce e de d B P A •j guidelines by one.

MR . RUNDELL :i1 And what t he y're doing

is, you know, if you are

exposed to some contaminate,f you might not get cancer, but


<814) 536-8908

AR500IU

TU5————

it might, you know, make you

sick in some other method or

manner. And they have a

formula where their criteria

is one --- if that

calculation comes out to a

number greater than one, then

there is an adverse impact

due to whatever that

contaminant might have been.

If it's less than one, then

there is no impact. What I

think that says is if they

calculated t A a t -., there was an

impact due to some other

noncarcinogenic.

MR . OCHS :

The sentence again is

noncarcinogenic hazard

indices calculated for those

scenarios exceeded EPA's

guideline by one. These

exceedences (sic) indicate

that potential adverse health

effects might be real if

^


(814) 536-8908

AR500II2

TTTS

untreated ground water in

these areas were used as

p u b l i c w a t e r . ' ;

However, the '•-

like! i h o o d of anyone \.consuming untreated ground

water is low because, one,

p u b l i c w a t e r is supplied by

the Williamsport Municipal

Water Authority. And two,

the review of available well

records and discussions with

Williamsport Municipal Water

Authority, long-time

residents and plant employees

did not indicate private

us e s .

That, of course is

p^a tently Untrue. -So I'm

wondering, these hypothetical

ground water exposures really

could be improved upon if we

had some knowledge of actual

ground water' exposures from

those residents who used the


(814) 536-8908

RR500H3

m—ground water over a 50-year

period of time from private

wells.

MR. RUNDELL;

Would you be happy if

we could discuss who had or

didn't have a well over the

last 200 years? I think our

analysis is based on current

usage. Would you be

satisfied that if in future

discussions we put the word

current in because we can't

go back and figure out who

was doing what, you know, 50

years ago? We can try to

determine if there was a well

there. We can see where that

well might have been and we

believe we've done that. But

we can't calculate a risk or

a potential risk to people

when we don't know what kind

of contaminants they were

exposed to at that particular


(814) 536-8908

AR500I1U

TITt i m e . All we can do is a

c u r r e n t r i s k . A n d t h o s e

s t a t e m e n t s t h a t y o u w e r e j u s t

r e a d i n g , i f we i n s e r t t hei

word c u r r e n t , would that makei

you h tf p p y ?MR . OCHS ; '

. . . . !My unde r s t and i ng is

that the AtfiDR public health

assessment has not just

occurred since we put it in a

historical retrospective -- - .

MR. RUNDELL: '

I g u e s s I ' m j u s t

making --- I 'me on fused. I:

thought you ''we re reading the

risk assessment. iMR. OCHS;

• •*' The rl sk

characterization which

a c c o' m p a n i e s t h e t o x i c i t y :

asses s:men t . ' 5i

"• MR •- RONDELIi ;

-'•'• I thoUght you were :(

reading from our risk '


(814) 536-8908ftR500H5

assessment.

MS. LOWE:

That is our risk

assessment.

MR. OCHS :

Maybe Mr. Nicholson

could ad dress the question as

to when municipal water lines

were fully available to the

entire plume within the

on-site area.

MR. NICHOLSON:

To respond to the

q u e s t i o n , you know, DEP was

t o - - - .

MR . OCHS :

For example, I'm

thinking of what's known as

the patch in Williamsport,

the foot o f Rose Street. I

wonder how long it took for

the municipal water system to

lay the water lines to the

foot of Rose Street, 1930s,

1940s and so forth. We must


(814) 536-8908

TTT

ha ve s om£ - - - .' ;iMR. DENNIS: !

'••' I think I see where iyou're"''coming from and you

raise an interesting point.iUnfortunately, the Superfurid

law 'either'^didn't take this!

into account or it certainly

doesn't now, but it seems to

me like you're saying if -

s o meone is sick now from '

cancer and although they're

not drinking contaminated

water now or have they been

in Athe last 15 years, could

they have been drinking it

when they were younger and

could that be the reason why

they have cancer. Is that

somewhere along the lines?

MR. OCHS:

Or hone arcinogenic.

MRl RO N D E L L !

Or *a s i c k n e s s r e l a t e dt

to a c o n t a m i n a n t a l t h o u g h


(814) 536-8908A R 5 0 0 I 17

———————_——————————————rT5-

they're not exposed to now,

could it be something that

they wer.e exposed to from a

long time ago.

And you're right, the

S u p e r f u n d l a w doesn't address

that. It doesn't go back

that far. We're a young

agency. That's not an

excuse. It's just the truth.

But mayb e it's something that

the doctors need to answer

where the people are going

for treatment when they try

to figure out when they do

the diagnosis and then see

how to treat the patient. I

don't know how they go back

and try to figure out where

this disease could have come

from. I'm sure they go

through their personal

history, where do they work,

et cetera.

But you're asking for


(814) 536-8908AR500IIB

116

a 1 o ti from a government -

agency that's' very young or

even from the Municipal Water

Authority t'o try to backtrack

if someone is sick now to see

where it came from. There's

a list of thin g s, a smoker,

nonsmoker, where he was

emp1oye d, diet. I gue s s •

there could be [a number ofthings. / o . •

And to have us

even attempt "t'o go back and

try t o f i n d out those kind ;

of answers, it is very labor

intensive I think, and

I don't kncbw what we would

benefit by" it . It-'doesn't 1

make the person 'better. I

think we've made the water

quality throughout the

country a whole lot better

for everyone to drink. It's

unfortunate it wasn't that ;

way 30 or 40 or ^50 years ago.


(814) 536-8908AR500119

TTT

but as they say, t h a t ' s the

w ay it goes; am I c o r r e c t ?

MS. DEITZEL;

I think he's correct

in that that's the kind of

information you're looking

for, but here in --- i think

we said 1987 --- that's when

we first became aware that

there was contamination of

the ground water of that

type. That is when we began

to find where the plume of

contamination went. If we

look at an address on there

that's now inside the plume,

there's absolutely no data :in

the systems anywhere that

would tell you whether or not

--- if a person in that house

had a well 50 years ago,

whether or not the plume

extended to that point.

There's no data because we

began to track this plume in


(814) 536-8908AR500I20

the late '80s or the early

'80s. There's no way to get

data from before that time.

And this is a question we

e n c ouri t e r at mo s t o f our

sites about pas!t exposure. '

And t h e r e ' :s~ simply no way :

t h a :t y o u c a n go into a

factory in 1999 or the year

2000 and measure what the

exposure might have been in

1930. The whole operation

and regulations are

different.

MR ./• DENNIS ; !1 What I think you're

overlooking is these things

happened before any

r e g u 1 a t orr y agency was in

exi s tehee . But 1 e t ' s not

forget about what we've done

to prevent it for our future

generations. We came a long,

long way to prevent that this

doesn't happen again at least


(814) 536-8908 AR500I21

TT3

through these types of

exposures so you have to

balance it off, I think. I

think the agencies across the

board, whether it be the

state, local or federal

government have done

milestones for the rivers and

the water quality, whether it

be groundwater or surface

water throughout the country

to ensure that the exposures

of the past will no longer

happen in the future.

MR . OCHS ;

There must be data as

to when these contaminants

began to be pumped into the

wells. Textron began in the

1930s or earlier as a means

to - - - .

MR . DENNIS ;

Well, what difference

does it ma ke ?

MR . OCHS ;


(814) 536-8908AR500I22

According to this

article that's quoting

B a r n e 1 1 , also y o u m u s t have

hi s t or i!!c a 1 da t a that shows

when home's were1 con structed

in the area and when they ;

hooked into' the municipal

Water system. A

hydrogeologist might have

some hypothetical historical

retrospective speculations as

to from 1987 wh'en the first

indicator of this plume, how

long might tfhis have been

g o i n g o n tor each t h e

concentrations in 1987, a

year? ,

MR". DENNIS ;

What would you do with

this kind of data? How does

t h at help 'you? What do you

think we c ou Id do 'with that

k i nd of da t a ?

' MR . OCRS ;

Just as you had


(614) 536-8908RR500I23

hypothetical scenarios

according to different routes

of exposure, it seems to me

you should have a real

scenario bas e'd on real data.

MR. DENNIS:

We have that for the

last --- since Superfund has

been around, we've had real

d at a and we will continue to

have that for the -future, but

we can't use what we don't

have. I don't know what you

would do with it anyway, to

identify the causes of these

cancers. Perhaps they're

friends of yours or just in

the neighborhood or

throughout the country. In

my area as well as yours,

there are people that get

sick. And unfortunately, we

don't know all the answers.

Some of them are smokers.

Some of them are not. I'm


(814) 536-8908AR500I2I*

just curious, what would you

think we could use this

information for? What can 'we

do with this? ;

MR .' OCHS ;

Health assessment and. . I

a risk characterization

should be able to include :

real data as to what's i

occurred to real users of

contaminated well water.

MR. RUNDELL:

1 believe that's what

the risk assessment does.*

MR. O C H S : ,

I t says t h e r e was no

p r i v a t e w e l l u s e r s .

MS. L O W E : |

A t t h e t i m e - - - .

MR ". D E N K I 5 : *

A t t h e t i m e t h a t w e \

c o n d u c t e d t h i s .

MR . R D N D E L L !

But t h e y s t i l l , I

b e l i e v e , c a l c u l a t e d t h e


(814) 536-8908

A R 5 0 0 I 2 5

potential risk if someone did

drink the water.

MR . OCHS :

And that was above the

level of one.

MR. RUNDBLL;

Right. And all we can

say is given the

concentrations that are out

there today when we're doing

this risk calculation, that

if someone were to

hypothetica 1ly drink the

water, take a bath in it or

be exposed to it in any other

method, that that would pose

a certain risk that they

calculated. You can't go

back 30 years and put

concentration numbers that

you don't know what they are.

All you can say is 30 years

ago they might have been

exposed to something similar.

MR. DENNIS;! . I

____________________\_________________________________________;

Sargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc.•(814) 536-8908

H R 5 0 0 I 2 6

T2T

And the hypothetical

r i s k - - - .

MR . 'RUNDELL ;

It'1 might, 'have been

higher, but we don't know.

All we c a n do is do a .

calculation on the data that;we have today. ' ;

1 MR . DE'NNIS ;

And hyp o t he t i c a 1 risk

is like "a warning for someone

that says what would happen.

Well, b a s e'd on ou ri

calculations , you 're going to

get sick in some way, shape

or f'o r m s o we s ugge s t you i

don't put a well there or [don't drink the water or

don't shower in it. I

«5'. LOWE .- ; r

And then t:hat is why

we're here today, to have a

proposal to clean up the (

groundwater that led to this.

There was a r i s k , so we're


(814) 536-8908

AR500I27

here today to find a way to

clean up the groundwater so

the risk can be reduced, if

not eliminated.

MR . OCHS ;

I would conclude, and

I'll reserve the r i ght to ask

further questions that in the

presen t e a s e , just as the

discover y o f the last two

years a more complex

situation existed.

Therefore, the need to revise

the ROD. I think ,the

historical situation is much

more complex than what the

ATS DR health assessment

suggests and what the risk

characterization oft he EPA

suggests also. And because

these two recently revealed

complexities, I personally

have no confidence in the

EPA .

MR . ZIMMHRMAN !


. (814) 536-8908AR500I28

I am Mel Zimmerman

from <L"ycoming College. The

revisions sort of come from

the complex geology and also

because of the fluctuation of

water levels of the

groundwater. And then what

will be anticipated in the

worst case scenario?

MR. RONDEIiL;

You 'brought up two

points is why we had problems

with the air sparging system.

And just to repeat what you|

said, it's the complex

geology and the fluctuation

in the water table. If you

go back to one of' these

three-dimensional models of ithe site, i n one of the hot

spot areas, the one on the

eastern side which is wherel

w e h a d ' t h e p r o b l e m / w h a t w e

had t h e r e was a v e r y t h i n

t rave l l a n e s ' t h e r e a s o p p o s e d


(814) 536-8908A R 5 0 0 I 2 9

ITT

to --- this is the main

channel, as you recall the T-

shaped groundwater plume,

that channel comes out of

that cross section and runs

down the center of the plume.

Over in this area, you have a

very thin sand and gravel

channel and if you look at it

from a different direction, I

guess, the concept is still

there .

When they did their

test, the water level was a

lot lower. And then within

that sand or gravel channel

there was both a saturated

zone and an unsaturated zone

and they both have silts in

the unit.So the air stripping

and the air sparging worked

because you had an

un s a t u rated zone.. The

problem was that when the


(814) 536-8908AR500I30

TZFwater level came up, that

whole z one f i11e d up with

water sot here was no

unsaturated zone so you could

blow air i n i t all day long,

but you couldn't suck the

contaminants out so that the

air sparging and this whole

vapor extraction scenario .

didn't work,in that area.

I t ' s n o t to s ay t ha t it '

wouldn't have worked in some

of these other areas where

you didn't have that

co n f i n i n g u n i t .

MR 3 ZIMMERMAN ;

S o y o u took all this

--- right now the groundwater

levels are low again, you

test for contaminants. If -i

the ground levels go way high

the. new,technique will work?

MR . RPNDELL :

The new technique

doesn't really care too much


(814) 536-8908A R 5 0 0 I 3 I

T2S"

about --- it's not affected

by the levels o f w a t e r . It

can go up a lot, they'll just

pump more.

MR. ZIMMERMAN:

So worst case, the

contaminants, whether of that

was high water or - - - ?

MR . RUNDELL ;

Right, it's not

impacted by the water level,

by the seasonal fluctuation.

It's still drawing

contamination through the

well and capturing it. So

you have to design your pump

so that the captive zones are

present and active during all

water levels in the

fluctuation. All you do is

turn the pumps on.

Right now, today they

were trying to install some

of their pump test wells in

that channel area. They'll


(814) 536-8908AR500I32

be d o i n g p u m p t e s t s and •i

basically *we'll have to

figure <out how many wells we

need across that main channel

to fully captu ret he

contamination. So there's

going to be a line of wells,

t he r e .*• R i gh t now we don't

know if- there's going to be

four or eight .

MR . NICHOLSON : !

Will it contain the

hot spots and then reduce the

amount in the bedrock, the

level that migrates in the

bedrock? The amount in - - -!

to determine the amount of

mi g r a t ion -in- the bedr o c k that

is c ont i nuou s 1 y c om i ng from

the hot spot over to the

o r i g i na 1 •; pump back to :

the ----?;- , ; ! - . - , - ! ,

•'• ( MR . RONDELL g :

N o , w e think the

sources are those two hot


(814) 536-8908 A R 5 0 0 I 3 3

——————————————————————rnspot areas. And to the

limited degree that the

contamination migrates

through the overburden and

into the upper part of the

bedrock, it came from those

sources. Those are the only

sources we've identified.

No, it would be nice

if we cou.ld do that, but with

the bedrock, if you put a

well in and you find the

fracture, you can somewhat

tell the orientation of that

fracture, but exactly where

that goes ten feet away from

the well, I guess there are

some methods where you can do

that, but it's a very

difficult answer to try to

come up with exactly what

pathway through a crack it

went. You can more or less

look at it on a more general

s c a 1e as opposed to a


(814) 536-8908AR500I31*

s p e c i f i c f r a c t u r e .

MS . D E I T Z E L :

W e V l l t ake a f ew mor-e

q u e s t i o n s . ;

M R . O C R S ;i

- ; M r . Ochs again. O n '

page 15 of the proposed plan,

the overall protection of i

human health in the

environment, no unacceptable

risks are associated with the

current groundwater use in '

the area bee a u s e o f the

treatment system of l

iWilliamsport Municipal Water

Au t ho r i t y - » ;i

However,.- earlier on

page n i n e under ;the second

paragraph it say,s that a base

line RA determines that :

hazardous substances at the

site may present a potential

future t,h r eat to human health

if they were notf addressed -by

the remedial action. :


, (814) 536-8908AR500I35

Therefore, a re me dial action

needs to be selected to

reduce the future risk to

acceptable levels.

My question is if the

previous remedial actions

were never fully implemented,

what has the unacceptable

level of risk been and what

surveys will be done to see

if human health was harmed

du'e to such unacceptable

risks?

MS . LOWS ;

Current exposure, we

feel that there's none to any

risk because of the treatment

systems on the municipal

wells. The future risks

would be if in the future

someone were to put a well in

the contamination, so we want

to clean up to avoid the

future risk that we'll drink

contaminated water.


(814) 536-8908

AR500I36

TJT

MR. OCHS:

It "says on page nine,

remedial action needs to be

selected to reduce the future

risk to acceptable levels.

That sentence would suggest

that the current risk is at

an unacceptable level . .

MS .' LOWE ;I

There's two different

scenarios.' The current risk,

there is no exposure pathway

because to our knowledge, '

there is no well in the

contamination as we said

previously and all the people

are drinking water from the

Williamsport Municipal

System.

The future risk

wo'uld be if in the future,

hypothetica 11y 'speaking,

someone were to pu't a well in

the contamination. We want

to clean up the' contamination

Sargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc.(* (814) 536-8908

AR500I37

to eliminate that exposure,

future exposure that way.

MR. OCHS:

It's not fair that the

EPA can tell me at the time

that the Avco site was put on

the national priorities list

in 1987 how many private

wells - - - .

MS. LOWS;

In our survey, those

44 wells were found. As

Eugene said, only one was for

a business that was currently

in use and when they went to

investigate, it was no longer

i n u s e .

MR. OCHS;

That survey was done

several years after the site

had gained the status of

being on the NPL list. In

the third paragraph, you say

that in 1996 the EPA also

concluded that the

________________________________________Sargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc.

(614) 536-8908

RR500138

ITT

contaminated groundwater

presents a principal threat

to human health through

i n g e s t i o n . T h e risks

associated with exposure to

contaminated groundwater at

the site h a s n o t changed. '

Actual or threatened releases

of hazardous substances from1 -, , •*

this site if not addressed by

remedial' act ion present a

current and potential threat

to public health, 'welfare and

the environment.; . i

My question is, if the

contaminated water presentedi

a principal threat to humanj

health through ingestion, •

were there also subprincipal

threats? And if so, could

you explain1 what the

subprincipal threats would

be ?

MR V RUNDELL ;

I h a v e n o i d e a .


(814) 536-8908

/ J R 5 0 0 I 3 9

ITT

MR . OCHS :

Again, because there's

no toxicologist here as I

requested three or four years

ago, some of my questions

have not been adequately

addressed.

MR . RUNDELL ;

The purpose of this

meeting is to address the

proposed plan and not theL

risk assessment which we had

the meeting for numerous

years ago. And at that point

in time, I believe there was

a toxicologist present.

There usually is.

MR. OCHS;

On page 17, the

statement in the first

paragraph, new air

contamination sources will be

controlled to the maximum

extent and consistent with

the best available

______________Sargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc.

(814) 536-8908AR50QUO

ITS

technology; • . Is there

anything better'' than best

available technology? 5

MS . LOWE :

No. ; :

- MR . FARMERIE :

Best available

technology that's out there

f b r u s e f o r ^ t h a t site. So I

d o n ' t * - - - there's nothing

better than the best

available. <

MR . RUNDELL : . ,

.-It' era - t e r m of art and

lawyers like-to - p u t that kind

of stuff -in. ' (.-.:..

MR . OCHS ; ;

. • - I - thought 'that was j

the. - - - ? . ; '. ••••MR . DENNIS t

; 'B eat o a v a i l a b l e , I

don * t kno w^ wha t wou 1 d be

b e t t e r s t h a n t h e b e s t .

' ft M S . D E I T Z E L ;

•: • r j u. • j N h e n - t h e y ' r e t a l k i n g


(814) 536-8908

ftRSOOUl

about best available

technology, they're just

talking about the latest and

greatest thing that we happen

to know about at this point

in time. Next year, there

might be something better,

but right now, this is the

best that we can identify.

And for the future use

scenarios, we look at them

because we have no way of

controlling what happens down

the road. So we don't like

to leave contamination if we

can't control how people make

use of the area in the

future. So we try to clean

it up so that should someone

change how it's being used or

even whether it's being used

in the future, they're

protected. But at the

moment, people are not

drinking contaminated


(814) 536-8908AR500IU2

g r o u n d w a t e r .

M R . O C H S :

Are they using it for

other purposes? !

*MS . DEITZEL :

; N o t to our knowledge.

They did tell us when we did

go and talk to them that they

are not using their wells.

MR . OCHS ;

Who lis they that told

you? . • / < :

MS . DEITZEL ;

Well, I think Jill

said at the time that* they ,

d id t he s u r vey , they went

door to door and that they

did a mass mailer to people

and requested information

about whether; or not they hadi

wells and. whether: or not ;

those wells were used.

Generally those surveys also

asked how the wells were

closed down . ''


(814) 536-8908AR500U3

MR. OCHS:

You're talking about

the survey done by - - - ?

MR. RONDELL;

By ERM.

MR. OCHS:

I s ERM still part of

the cleanup process?

MR . DENNIS :

No .

MR. OCHS:

Has some other group

supplanted ERM?

M8 . LOWE :

S e c o r .

MR. DENNIS;

A gentleman out of

Michigan, I believe. He'll

be at the site I think the

r e s t o f this week if you'd

like to stop by and meet him.

His name is David Arnold with

Secor out of Michigan.

MR. RONDELL;

They're the ones who

VSargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc.

(814) 536-8908ARSOOIbb

are i h s t a 1 1 i n'g the wells and

designing the new pump and

treat s y s t em , "o r will be if

we choose that'" r o u t e .? MR . ̂ 6 CHS :

Is Secor the same as'

Internat i on a 1 Tec hn o1ogy

C o r p 'o r a t i o n ?

MR. RtTNDELL:

Y e s ' - - - not really. \

MR. DENNIS:

I t ' s t h e s a m e p e r s o n .

MR . R t T N D E L L ;

The same person. •

MR. DENNIS; >

Someone changed jobs',

but kept the contract.

MR. O C H S ; :

Garrity and Miller, ;

are t h e y sti11 i n v o 1 v e d ? |IM R ' . R t ? N D E L t i :

i, --, '. . .[ N01; - ' l: ' •- -- *

r -M s . t o w E ; ;I d o n ' t t h i n k s o .

They s t i 11 do - s o m e * w o r k w i t h


-*' (814) 536-8908AR500U5

the in-situ metals, I

believe. But Secor is in

charge of the remediation of

the plant for Textron.

MR. OCHS:

Is Secor the same as

the Fluor - - - ?

MR. RUNDELL:

Fluor Daniel, the same

gentleman once again. I

think it was IT Fluor Daniel.

David Arnold worked for them

and then he moved over to

Secor. They retained David

Arnold and his new company.

MR. OCHS;

In previous

correspondence with the E P A ,

I was promised quarterly

updates of the testing of the

groundwater. I got them

briefly and they stopped.

MR . DENNIS :

You should start

getting them again, but


(814) 536-8908AR500IU6

t h a t ' s w h e n t h e r e w a s a

c h a n g e o v e r in the c o n t r a c t

f r o m G a r r i t y a n d M i l l e r ove r

t o S e c o r , , w h i c h w a s t h e f i r s t

o n e D a v e w o r k e d f o r . D u r i n g

t h a t ( t i m e , t h e r e w a s a lul l

i n a c t i o n , t jhey w e r e d o i n g

s o m e a d d i t i o n a l s t u d i e s ,

r e s e a r c h a n d / o r f i e l d

s t u d i e s , at * w h i c h t i m e I

d o n ' t t h i n k t h e r e m a n y , i f

any,, q u a r t e r l y r e p o r t s

p r o d u c e d . J B u t t h e y s h o u l d b e

b a c k o n t r a c k . I ' m n o t s u r e

w h a t t h e i r s t a t u s i s . '

MS . L O W E ;

We .rhave gotten the

most cur rent progress reports

for, the past ^several months.T,he one: f o r D e c ember included

test- data from, monitoring

wells for the ̂ inr situ metals

and the VOCsf that, we test

for. Did you receive that in

your packet?

Sargent's Court Reporting Service, 'Inc.

.(814) 536-8908AR500U7

MR. OCHS:

I'll have to look to

see. The community relations

plan, which I guess was

initiated by Patrick Monyhan

in the late '80s from the

Wheeling, West Virginia

office of the E PA, has that

been updated through Ms.

Barnett's representing the

EPA and this community ---

has anything been updated

since the late '80s?

'MS. DBIT2BL;

I don't know.

MR. OCHS i

I'm thinking because

there was a community

neighborhood group within the

Superfund site, perhaps some

outreach and educational

information could be

forwarded.

MS . DBITZBL i

Actually, it would be


(814) 536-8908

AR500IU8

helpful if you could provide

me names and addresses of the

people in t ha t group so I can

start mailing them. I don't

have much of a mailing list

at this time.. It's mostly

made* up from attendance at

'these meetings.

MR . OCHS ; f

Well, there's never

been & community meeting

other than these open

meetings about ROD and

r e v i Bed -'•- - .1 MS . D E I T Z E L ;

' These open meetings

for the cotnmuni t y a r e the !

ones w e b u i 1 d o u r '' mailingi

list from in general. . |

Sometimes we get databases,

but t h e y ' r e n o t v e r yi

accurate. If you have a

mailing list'foryour group,

we'd be happy to add that t'o

our mailing list. ;


(814) 536-8908AR500IU9

ITT

MR. OCHS;

Unfortunately, this

meeting came January 10th in

preparation for --- had to

fall over the Christmas

holiday making it very

difficult for people to bring

themselves up to date. We'd

appreciate it if perhaps next

time we're not so rushed with

o.t her things to give this

more consideration.

Also, I regret to say

that except f o.r the December

3rd l e g a l a d that the E PA

placed in the paper, that the

public has not been notified

about this meeting, to my

knowledge since December 3rd

by any of the local media.

That might help to explain

why the attendance is not

v e r y g o o d .

MS . DBITZBL ;

I k n o w t h a t b a s i c a l l y


(814) 536-8908&R500150

the attendance we get at most

of our meetings has been

very, very small. We are at

five after nine and we'll '

take one more question and ;

t he n we really have to wrap

up and turn the room back to

--- do you have a final

question? I do have youri .

letter with the list of the

40 questions and I will

respond to that letter.

MR . OCHS :

I'm just wondering |

what level of confidence thei

EPA is looking for before

they accept this plan, to get

input from Pennsylvania

D e p a r t'm e n't of Environmental

Protection and Wi 1 1 iamspor t

Municipal Water Authority and

I'm wondering who else are

important players in other

Supe r fund' sites, for example,

what other local sectors get


(814) 536-8908AR500I5I

involved to educate

themselves about issues

enough that they can offer an

opinion to offices of the

mayor or city councils or

local health departments or

county governments and

environmental organizations

and neighborhood groups and

so forth? Do you sometimes

find them actively involved

in other Superfund sites?

MS . DEITZEL :

It varies a great deal

from site to site, but to

some extent we would have to

look to residents within a

community to take it upon

themselves to become

involved. We do try to put

the information o.u t there.

It's available at the

library. It's on the web

site. It's a phone call

away. People can call and


(814) 536-8908AR500I52

request information from us.

We get the in f or ma t i on out.

Some sites, yes, we

have very active groups of

citizens, sometimes very

large group s . Bu t i n

general, what we see is that

even oh a particularly •

controversial site, usually

over time we get it down to a

core group that rarely seesj

more than 30 people who

attend regularly. More

frequently, it's a dozen or(

less who stick with iti

through the entire course.i

We, of course, look

for state a c ceptance and we

do look for information from

the public, b u t i f it doesn't

come in, there's not an awful

lot we can do other than to1

assume that the people who ,

aren' t responding are more ior

less comfortable enough that


(814) 536-8908AR500153

T5T

we can continue with our

cleanup. And also, I might

add that when we do have

negative comments that come

in, it's not valid to say to

us I object. You have to

present some sort of

scientific data as to what's

wrong with the plan or

additional information that

sheds some light on the

subject. It's not enough to

simply say, I don't want to

do that. I don't know if

that's exactly an answer to

your question, but we do need

to wrap this up.

Again, all of my

numbers are there. Jill's

numbers are there. You can

reach us by phone. You can

reach us free by phone,

e-mail, FAX. All of the

numbers are there and we

encourage you to do that up


(814) 536-8908A R 5 0 0 I 5 U

until midnight for this

particular proposed plan. You

can reach us anytime for

things be y o n d ' t h'a t and other

than that-, r would like tothank yo*u all 'for coming.

When t he p1 an s are finalized,

there will be an ad and that

decision will end up in the

1i b rary.' '

- -, ! »H^ARIKG CONCLUDED AT 9:10 P.M.

* * * * * * * *


(814) 536-8908ftR500!55

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^J

C E R T I F I C A T E

I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING PROCEEDINGS

WERE REPORTED STENOGRAPHICALLY BY ME AND THEREAFTER

REDUCED TO TYPEWRITING AND THAT THIS TRANSCRIPT

IS A TRUE AND ACCURATE RECORD THEREOF.

SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC

T REPORTER

trycr-L/7CC

V- PITTSBURGH J»A

• CLEARFIELD, PA

•STATE COLLEGE, PA

•IIOLUDAYSBURG.PA

SARGENTS

. PA-OILOTY, PA

'HARRISBURG, PA2 1 0 M a I n c i

'INDIANA' PA

-GREENSBURG, PA

• PHILADELPHIA, PA

• SOMERSET, PA

•WILXES-BARRE, PA

•CHARLESTON. WV

TRANSCRIPT OF PUBLIC MEETING

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