Meeting Transcript Provided By Public Resources · 2015-03-10 · Meeting Transcript Provided By...

Meeting Transcript Provided By Public Resources

SEPTEMBER 23, 2008 Chairman Judah: Good Morning, Everyone. We'll Go Ahead And Get Started With The Meeting Of September 23. We Welcome Pastor Becky Robins From Lamb Of God Church To Give Us The Invocation. Good Morning. Good Morning. Let Us Pray. God Of All Times And Seasons. It Is Written That There Is A Time To Weep, A Time To Laugh, A Time To Mourn And A Time To Dance. As We Gather Today The News Of Turmoil Drums In Our Ears And Yet We Celebrate Stories Of Goodness That Thrill Our Hearts. We Thank You For Those Who Do Not Let Difficult Days Stop Them From Reaching Out To Help People, Creatures And Places And Who Make Our Paradise Of Sun, Sand And Sea A Haven Of Compassion And Service. As The Members Of The Board Of Commissioners Take Up Their Work Of Guiding And Governing Us, We Ask You To Give Them Wisdom To Face Problems With Clarity, The Openness To Find Solutions With Creativity And The Insight To Appreciate All We Have To Be Grateful For. Help Each One Present Here Today To Maintain The Wide And Gracious Perspective That Fosters Cooperation While Respecting Differences And That Serves Your People While Cherishing Your Creation. We Give Thanks For All Who Serve In County Government And Ask You To Give Your Special Blessing To Them This Day. Creating God, We Ask Your Blessing On Our Commissioners And Our Community This Day And Every Day, Amen. Chairman Judah: Thank You, Pastor.

1 This transcript is actually a copy of the live closed captioning text that was broadcast at the meeting and to be used as a reference only.

Lee County is not responsible for content or any errors contained within. For the official minutes of this meeting visit the Clerk of Courts Minutes Department at http://minutes.leeclerk.org/



Please Remain Standing. [Together] I Pledge Allegiance To The Flag Of The United States Of America, And To The Republic For Which It Stands, One Nation Under God Indivisible With Liberty And Justice For All. Chairman Judah: Thank You, Pastor. We Have A Number Of Ceremonial Resolutions And The First One Is In Recognition Of The Great Relationship That Our Library System Has With Our Postal Service. We'd Like To Recognize A Particular Postal Service Carrier Because In This Instance The Postal Service Assists The Talking Books Program By Not Only Delivering The Audio And Talking Books But Also In Helping To Set Them Up. I'd Like To Ask Rick Rivera To Step Forward, Anne Murray. Rick Is The Award Recipient And Murray Is The Post Master. Debra Mitchell, If You Could Get Right In Front Of The Podium And Face Us. Tom Horner, The Manager Of The Downtown Station, Welcome And Good Morning. Good Morning. Chairman Judah: It's A Privilege To Have You Here And Myself To Have The Opportunity To Read The Resolution. It Reads -- Whereas The Freedom To Read Is Among Our Greatest Sources Of Life Long Learning And Enrichment And The Talking Books Library Serve Mrs. Than 1200 Residents Whose Blindness, Low Vision Or Disability Doesn't Allow Them To Read The Printed Page. Whereas The Talking Books Relies On The Postal Service To Deliver Materials To The Patrons, Whereas The Postal Service Letter Carriers Provide Exceptional Service To Talking Books Library Patterns Such As Reading The Title T Of The Books And Setting Up Players. Whereas Rick Rivera Assists Talking Books Library Patrons By Delivering Talking Books And Preparing The Books For Return. Therefore Be It Resolved That The Board Of County Commissioners Hereby Proclaims Rick Rivera Postal Service Carrier Of The Year. I Know Our Entire Board Is Proud And I Have Been Able To Sign This Resolution On Their Behalf. Welcome And Congratulations. [Applause] Chairman Judah: Thank You.



Let's Take A Photograph With You And Then We'd Like Your Support Group Up Here, Too. Folks, If You Could Please Step Forward. If You Could Stay Here, I'll Ask Sheldon, Terry, Marilyn, Karen And Heather If They Are All Here To Step Forward. This Is A Partnership With The Lee County Library System. Pleased To Have You Here. And Kathy Mayo. If You Could Come Up Here And Join Us, Good Morning. Good Morning. Chairman Judah: Thank You, All. Anne And Tom, If You Would Like To Lead Off At The Podium And Rick, We'd Like To Hear A Few Words From You, Please. Congratulations, Rick. Thank You For This Award. I Want To Thank Mike, Marilyn And Bill Nester From 2828 Jackson Complex Which I Have Delivered Mail. I One At A Time To Thank Them For The Nomination And If It Wasn't For Them, I Wouldn't Be Standing Here. I Just Want To Thank Them Very Much. Thank You. [Applause] I'd Like To Thank The Library For Recognizing Rick. It's A Really Special Thing To Take Time Out To Send Such A Positive Message. We Have Many Carriers That Work Hard Every Day For Customers And It's Nice To Get The Positive Feedback. This Is A Wonderful Ceremony. We Appreciate It. Thank You.



Chairman Judah: Thank You So Much. It's Our Pleasure. [Applause] Chairman Judah: Thank You For Being Here. We Have Another Interesting Ceremonial Resolution And It Has To Do With Recognizing The American Kennel Club. We Have A Number Of Representatives Of The American Kennel Club. I Would Ask If They Could All Step Forward And I Think They Have Canines With Them. Comm. Mann: Some Four-Footed Honorees Here. Comm. Hall: Oh, How Beautiful. Chairman Judah: Good Morning. Comm. Hall: They're Gorgeous. Chairman Judah: Debra, Let Me Read The Resolution And I'll Give You A Chance To Lead It Off. First Of All The Resolution Reads -- Whereas The American Kennel Club Was Established In 1884 To Foster Interest In Pure Bred Dogs And Promote The Welfare Of Pure Bred Dog And Has The Largest Registry Of Pure Bred Dogs. Whereas It Promotes Responsible Dog Ownership Through Programs Like Permanent Animal Identification. Whereas The American Kennel Club Established Akc Responsible Dog Ownership Day On September 17 The Day Of Its Founding To Promote All Aspects Of Responsible Dog Ownership Including Veterinary Care, Safety Around Children, Obedience Training And Licencing Essential To A Healthy Bond Between A Dog And Owner. Whereas Hundreds Of Akc Member And Licensed Clubs As Well As Other Animal Organizations Across The Country Recognize Akc Responsible Dog Ownership Day And Committed To Educating The Public About Responsible Dog Ownership Through Local Events And Demonstrations. Whereas The Dog Obedience Club With Permission And In Conjunction With Akc Responsible Dog Ownership Day Will Host The First Inside Bass Pro Shop On September 27, 2008. Whereas Every Dog Deserves A Responsible Owner. Be It Resolved By The County Commissioners That We Proclaim September 27, 2008 As Akc Responsible Dog Ownership Day Executed This 23rd Of September, 2008.



As Chair Of The Board I Was Privileged To Sign The Resolution. Ladies? [Applause] Chairman Judah: We're Going To Turn Around And Have A Photo. Comm. Mann: Were The Dogs Smiling? Chairman Judah: Thank You, Kim And Debra. If You'd Like To Lead It Off. O We Want To Thank You For The Resolution. The Dog Obedience Club Of Lee County Has Been In Existence For 25 Years. This Is Our First Responsible Dog Ownership Day. We Will Be At Bass Pro From 9:00 To 4:00 On Saturday Promoting Responsible Dog Ownership Because A Pet Is A Life-Long Commitment And We Want To Make Sure That Everyone That Has A Dog Treats Them Responsibly And Takes Care Of Them. And, Terry, And Judy Are Both Club Members. Terry Has Demonstrations Scheduled For Every Hour On The Hour And We'd Like To See People Come Out. You Can Bring Your Dogs Out. We Are Having The Canine Good Citizen Test. Would You Like To Add Anything Else? I Want To Thank You For Giving Us The Recognition For This And The Opportunity To Be Here. Again, Debbie Pretty Well Covered, Our Club Is Dedicated To Educating Dog Owners To Be Good Owners And To Make Good Dog Citizens So That They're Good At The Dog Parks Which We Thank You For. Those Are Wonderful Dogs. We Need Good Owners At The Parks And Just To Further The Relationship Between Dogs And People In The Last, You Know, Few Years Dogs Have Been Booted Out Of So Many Places Not Because Of Bad Dogs But Bad Owners. That's The Purpose We Try To Over Come Is To Teach People How To Be Good Owners So They Can Have Good Dogs. Chairman Judah: Thank You, Terry. Uh-Huh. Judy, Do You Want To Add Anything? No? Chairman Judah: Thank You.



It's A Great Message To Deliver Today. We Appreciate It. Thank You Very Much. Thank You. [Applause] Chairman Judah: Beautiful Dogs. Comm. Hall: So Pretty. Chairman Judah: We Need To Go To The Recap. Looks Like We Have A Number Of Walk-On Items That I Believe The Board Is Aware Of. With No Changes On The Consent Or Administrative Agenda. We'll Take Those Items Up At The End Of The Agenda And Move Onto Public Comment On The Consent And Administrative Agenda. I Don't Have Any -- Well, Maybe I Do. I Don't Know If This Is A Left Over Card. Peter, Did You Wish To Speak? Hi, Pete. I'm Representing The Audubon Chapters Of Collier And Southwest Florida. I Thought Following Frank Mann Was Tough, But Good Grief Those Dogs. Comm. Mann: Marvelous Dogs. I Wish To Urge Approval Of Having Lee County Continue To Join The Fight In Providing Environmental Protection From The Potentially Harmful Impacts Of Mining Upstream From Us. We All Realize 85% Of Charlotte Harbor Is In Lee County And An Engineering Failure From A Phosphate Mine Would Be A Disaster For The Eco-System. We're Long Overdue For A Serious Comprehensive Environmental Impact Statement On The Impacts Of Mining To The Watershed. I Look Forward To Having Lee County Be An Active Partner In Seeing That We Do The Right Thing. There's No Question We Need To Have Economic Development.



We Need The Phosphates But At The Same Time We Have To Protect Resources. The Other Item -- And It Seems Like Many Years Ago I Was Standing Here Advocating A Special District For Funding Of The Infrastructure For Babcock. I'm Pleased To See That Process Is Moving Forward. I Urge Your Approval Of The Memorandum Of Understanding Which Is A Sign That Babcock Is Prepared To Move Forward And Deal With The Issues That Any New Development Has. We Have To Provide Infrastructure In Order To Have An Eco-Friendly Environment. It Is Necessary To Deal With The Water And Transportation. No Question That A Sprawl Development Is The Least Favorable Of Any Of This. If We Can Provide A Mechanism Whereby We Can Get Decent Roads, Water And Sewage Infrastructure And Walkable, Buildable Communities That's A Win For All Of Us. It Gives Us An Opportunity To Have The Best Of All. I Urge Your Approval Of That As Well. Thank You. Chairman Judah: Thank You, Pete, For Taking The Time To Be Here. Anyone Else Wish To Comment On The Consent Or Administrative Agenda? Comm. Mann: The Superintendent. Chairman Judah: We Have Dr. Browder Here. Chairman Judah: I Know He's Here To Answer Questions. We'll Go Back To The Board And Items To Be Pulled On The Consent Agenda. Commissioner Hall? Comm. Hall: 3-B. Chairman Judah: O.K. Commissioner Janes? Comm. Janes: None, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Judah: Commissioner Mann? Comm. Mann: 3-A, 13-C. Chairman Judah: O.K. Comm. Mann: 13-D. That's All.



Chairman Judah: All Right. Commissioner Bigelow? Comm. Bigelow: I Have 1-A And 4-C. Chairman Judah: One Second, If We Could. All Right. And I Also Was Going To Pull 13-C. So The Chair Will Entertain A Motion To Move The Balance. Comm. Janes: So Moved. Comm. Hall: Second. Chairman Judah: Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Commissioner Hall? Comm. Hall: Yes. If Gloria Could Come Up, I Have A Couple Of Questions. 3-B, O.K. Comm. Hall: This Is On The Additional Funding Of $900,000 For Foreclosures. We'll Be Changing Assistance Per Household From $7,000 To Now $8,000. My Question For You, Glory, Is These Are Only For Ship Mortgages, Not For Everyone And Anyone To Come In To Get The Money. Is That Correct?? Did I Read That Correctly? The $100,000 Is Just For Ships. By Increasing It To $1 Million We Think We Have Enough To Open It Up To Anybody. Comm. Hall: O.K. So You're Going To Try To Open It To Everyone. When You Say Up To $8,000, When Someone Comes In, Do You Just Give Them The $8,000 Or Do You Have Counselors Negotiating Up To $8,000 Is What We Give People? It Would Be Up To $8,000. The Idea Is To Provide A Bridge. It's Really For Extraordinary Circumstance Like Someone Lost A Job And Now They Have A Job But They Fell Behind Or Someone Had A Medical Emergency Or Someone In The Household Died.



So It's A Bridge Up To $8,000. Comm. Hall: So It's A Case-By-Case Basis. Some May Have $1,000, Some May Have $8,000. It's Not A Standard $8,000. Right. Comm. Hall: I'll Move The Item. Chairman Judah: Motion By Commissioner Hall. Seconded By Commissioner Mann. Gloria, Let Me Thank You On Behalf Of The Board And Certainly The Proposal, The Recommendation Here. This Is A Huge Step On Behalf Of The County To Increase The Allocation From $100,000 To $1 Million To Work To Keeping People In Their Homes And Deal With The Foreclosures In The Industry. I Want To Thank You. Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Commissioner Mann, 3-A. Comm. Mann: Mr. Chairman, I'm Sure I Have No Problem With This, But This Relates To What We Were Talking About Yesterday. Commissioner Hall Is Very Familiar With All Of This. I Just Want To Know The Status Of The Impact Fees That We Are Developing. Who Wants To Talk About That? Chairman Judah: Good Morning, Mary. Comm. Mann: Mary, Are You My Budget Specialist? Go. Comm. Mann: What Are We Getting In The Way Of Impact Fees? Anything At All In The North Fort Myers District? I Don't Have -- Comm. Mann: We Are Approving An Interest Bearing Loan For $20,000 From The General Fund To Pay Back What Apparently Isn't Happening In Impact Fees. Because There Is Not Enough To Cover It In This Particular Case. This Is The First One That We Have Had This Happen With The North Fort Myers. So We're Not Getting Much And We Are Getting A Little Bit In, But Not Enough.



Comm. Mann: What Do You See In The Future In North Fort Myers? Is That The Most Strained Park District? Could Be In Parks. We Have Had This Happen In A Couple Of Circumstances In Different Districts. We've Had It Happen In A Couple Of Fire Districts Actually. We Never Had The Problem Until Recently, But It's Not Just North Fort Myers But This Is The Situation Where We Just Didn't Have Enough To Recoup It. Comm. Mann: Well, I Think The Point I'm Trying To Help Commissioner Hall Make And She Certainly Doesn't Need Any Help, But I'm Gonna Do It Anyway. If We're Going To Do Something For A Community Improvement Over There It's Not Going To Come Out Of The Impact Fees. They're Not Developing. But The Need Is There And Has Been For Some Time. That's The Point I'm Trying To Make Here By Pointing Out That The Dollars Aren't Evolving And Haven't Been In North Fort Myers In The Parks. So I'll Move The Item. Chairman Judah: Motion By Commissioner Mann To Move 3-A. Comm. Hall: Second. Chairman Judah: Under Discussion, Commissioner Hall? Comm. Hall: I Think It Goes Back To The County Having The Opportunity To Create One Impact Fee District So The Fees Can Be Used Appropriately And Not The General Fund. I Hope This Is The Year We'll Move Toward That. I Have Been Asking For This For Four Years. There Are Neighborhoods That Won't Generate Impact Fees. Parks Are Created By Population. There Are Areas That Won't Have The Insurgence Of Impact Fees. I Hope As We Go Through And Re-Evaluate Park Impact Fees The Opportunity To Create One District Will Be There And That We Can Actually Go Forward And Be Fair In This Community So That The General Fund Is Not Doing What Normally Impact Fees Should Be Doing. So I Think There Is A Light At The End Of The Tunnel.



Short-Term We Have The Challenge, But Long Term We Can Pay Back The General Fund Through Impact Fees. Commissioners, On Next Week's Agenda, I Think, We Have A Discussion Of When You Want To Do The Park Impact Fee Update, When You Want To Schedule It. That Would Tie Into Whether You Want To Change The Districts Or Not. Chairman Judah: Thank You, Mary. Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Commissioner Mann, 13-C. Comm. Mann: And I Heard You Make Reference To That One, Too. My Question Is It Seems Like A Landscape Expense. Why Is This Coming From General Fund Instead Of The Toll Trust Fund? Scott Gilbertson, Dot, For The Record. All Of Our Roadway Landscaping Has Been Coming Out Of The General Fund. Comm. Mann: I'm Thinking That The General Dot Fund, The General Ad Velorum Tax Fund? The General Ad Velorum Fund. May Comm. Mann: Maybe We Want To Rethink That Issue At Some Point. We're Not Short In The Toll Trust Funds, Are We, For Handling An Expense Like This. That's Where This Should Be Coming From. You're Saying If We Want To Change The Policy We Can Change It Any Time We Want. I Bet That's The Stock Answer More Or Less. Absolutely. The Surplus Tolls Have Been Going To Pay The Debt Both As Senior Debt And The Junior Debt On The Sanibel Causeway. There Is A Substantial Amount Of That Going To Extend Into Probably 2015 Or 2016. The City Of Sanibel Has Also Been Putting The Surplus Toward Helping Reduce The Cost. Any Other Charges Against It Would Just Have An Impact On That Particular Aspect Of It. Comm. Mann: Maybe I've Still Got Plenty To Learn As I Do Every Day When We Meet Here. Seemed To Me That's Where The Expense Ought To Be Coming From.



But I'll Fight The Battle Another Day. I'll Move The Item. Chairman Judah: Motion To Move 13-C Seconded By Commissioner Janes. Under Discussion, Scott, The Only Question I Had Is That For Bicyclists Coming Off The Causeway And Approaching The Toll, There Is No Bicycle Lane. You Literally Are Fighting With The Motorists. It's A Dangerous Situation. I Didn't Get To Talk To You Ahead Of Time. I Don't Know If Any Of The Landscaping Irrigation System May Conflict With A Goal To Improve And Enhance The Safety Access For Bicyclists Exiting The Causeway Approaching The Toll And Moving Onto The Mainland. We Are Doing A Separate Project For Next Year. That Particular Aspect Will Be Included In It. It Will Include A Sidewalk On Summerland From Gladiolus To San Carlos. Some Of The Work Was Left Out Because Of Permitting Reasons And Impacts. We're Coming Back With A Separate Project. Chairman Judah: You Know About The Issue I'm Talking About Right There At The Toll? Correct. Chairman Judah: Exiting The Cause Way. Yes, Sir. Chairman Judah: This In To Way Conflicts With The Eventual Improvements? No. Chairman Judah: Any Further Discussion? Objection? Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Item 13-D. Thank You, Scott. Comm. Mann: This Is Just To Point Out For Is Citizens In Lehigh That This Is Another Fine Project That's Going To Enhance That Neighborhood, A Badly Needed Sidewalk From Gunnery Road To Sunshine Boulevard. Especially If There Are Commissioners Concerned About The Welfare Of Lehigh And I Want



To Take The Opportunity To Say Another Great Day For Lehigh. Thank You. I'll Move The Item. Comm. Hall: Second. Chairman Judah: Moved And Seconded. Discussion? Objection? Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Commissioner Bigelow, 1-A. Comm. Bigelow: Thank You, Mr. Chairman. This Is A Request To Approve The Valuation Committee's Selection Of A Tourism And Convention Sales Promotion Representative. I'm Not Opposed To Their Selection Necessarily, But I'm Opposed To The Make-Up Of The Committee As I Have Been Consistently. So I Won't Be Moving The Item. Comm. Hall: I Will Move It. Comm. Janes: Second. Chairman Judah: Discussion? Objection? Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. 4-1. Commissioner Bigelow Descents. Commissioner Bigelow, Did You Have Another One? 4-C? Comm. Bigelow: Yes. This Is An At Risk Contract To Kc Construction. I Have Some Questions. Under The Back-Up There Is A Sub Referred To As Lfi. This Is Going By The Initials Lfi. I Don't Know What That Is. It Says This Contractor Will Perform With Hired Labor And That's The Remark. What's Missing Here Is Evidence Of A Competitive Bid.



Could You Just Help Me Understand That A Bit. Chairman Judah: Jim, You'll Be Responding Then? I'm Trying To Find Lfi. Comm. Hall: It's On Page One. Go Behind That, Jim. Comm. Bigelow: In The Spreadsheet. Comm. Hall: It's The Third Item. O.K. Gotcha. We May Not Have Had Other Bids For That. This Is In Boca Grand. Sometimes We Only Get One Bid Up There. Comm. Bigelow: This Is A Crown Shield Community House Ada Improvement. Right. It's One Of The Structures On The Campus. Comm. Bigelow: O.K. I Would Suspect There Were No Other Bidders. Comm. Bigelow: There Are Others Where There Were No Other Bids Like The Wood Floor Repair. Right. Comm. Bigelow: The Note Says Only Responsive Bidder. For Hvac, There's Only One Bidder Apparently. I Know We Have More Than One Wood Floor Restorer In The County And More Than One Hvac Sub. So I'm Curious As To Why Those Couldn't Have Been Competitively Bid. Can You Tell Me -- Is The Contingency Fee Which Represents 23% Of The Cost Of The Work, Does 23% Average -- Is It -- How Does It Fall Within The Range Of Other Similar Contracts? The Contingencies Vary Depending How Much We Know And How Many



Unknowns There Are. It Can Range From 5% To 20 Or 25%. It Depends How Much Mystery We Think There Is In The Project We're Not Aware Of. Sometimes When You Tear Into Things, Things Happen. That's The Nature Of It. The Contingency Son Used When We Authorize It. Comm. Bigelow: I Understand. Keeps Us From Coming Back With Additional Change Orders. Comm. Bigelow: I Understand That This Is, You Know, Kind Of A Retro-Fit, If You Will. Sometimes That Involves Work. Yeah. It's An Older Structure, Right. Comm. Bigelow: Right. But There Is No Explanation As To Why The Contingency Which Seems High, 23% Of The Cost Of The Work. There Is No Rationale For Why It Would Be That. O.K. One Other Question. In The Background On The Blue Sheet It Says The Completion Time Is To Take No More Than Six Months, I Guess. 24 Weeks. Yet Under The General Conditions Break Down On Page 3 It Indicates I Guess 16 Weeks. It Doesn't Describe The Amount Of Time. It Says Under The Column Entitled Time, 16 And I Suppose That's 16 Weeks. Just Wondering Why There Is The Inconsistency Between What The Blue Sheet Says Would Require 24 Weeks But According To The Contractor It's Only 16.



I'll Look Into That. We Have Had Kc Construction On Site For Other Thing. One Of The Reason We're Adding Is It's A Separate Project, But Kc Has Been On Site Doing Renovations To The Main Building At The Main Rec Center Building. That General Condition May Reflect That. We're Only Going To Pay The Straight Pass-Through Costs For Dumpsters, Port-A-Potties And That Kind Of Thing. We Only Pay The Passenger Cost. Comm. Bigelow: O.K. There Are Holes In This That Are A Problem For Me. I Would Prefer, As I Have Said Many Times, Tried To Make Clear, That These Cm At Risks Demonstrate That They Have Gone Out Into The Tough Economic Times And Sought The Lowest Bid Possible And There Are Many Cases Here Where That's Not The Case. I Won't Be Approving It. Comm. Hall: I'll Move The Item. Comm. Janes: Second. Chairman Judah: Under Discussion, Commissioner Mann? Comm. Mann: What Does "General Conditions" Mean? Those Are The Costs For Operating The Site Basically. Dumpsters, Port-A-Potties, Anything -- Comm. Mann: That's What You Were Referring To? Correct. Comm. Bigelow: On Page Three. It's The Little -- You Know, Construction Trailer, Fax Machine. That Kind Of Thing Necessary For -- Comm. Mann: It's About 40% Of The Entire Budget. O.K. Chairman Judah: Any Further Discussion? Comm. Bigelow: I Object. Chairman Judah: Motion Passes 4-1 With Commissioner Bigelow Dissenting. Administrative Agenda. Comm. Hall: I'll Move Item 8-A To Authorize The Application Of The Florida Department Of



State Division For Linebackerly Information Services. It's The Grant For No Lee County Funding Required. Chairman Judah: Seconded By Commissioner Janes. Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Item 14-A? Comm. Hall: I'll Move The Item To Approve The Mutual Termination. Chairman Judah: Motion By Commissioner Hall. Comm. Janes: Second. Chairman Judah: Discussion, Objection? Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Item 15-A? Comm. Janes: Move The Item. Comm. Hall: Second. Chairman Judah: Under Discussion? Comm. Hall: This Is The Memorandum Of Understanding For Babcock. Chairman Judah: I Appreciate The Representatives And Staff Working Out Of The Memorandum Of Understanding To Make Sure We Are On A Level Playing Field And Know What We're Dealing With To Ensure The Adequate Infrastructure Is Put In Place For Charlotte And Lee County. Comm. Janes: A Lot Of Work Went Into This. By Babcock And Our Staff. Chairman Judah: Further Discussion? Comm. Bigelow: Yes. Thank You, Mr. Chairman. Good Morning. This Sets Aside A Lawsuit Or Ends It Effectively. No. It's Not Related To The Lawsuit. This Is In Anticipation Of When We Do Settle The Lawsuit How The Information Will Be Incorporated Into Our Lee Plan To Acknowledge The Road Improvements That Have To Be Made To Accommodate The Development In Charlotte County. Comm. Bigelow: So It Addresses The Road Improvements As A Methodology For Working Out The Impacts And Who's Paying What.



But How -- I'm Sorry. Go Ahead. The Process. What They Will Review. They Will Deliver It To Us. What They Will Do With The Information. We'll Amend The Plan And Update It Periodically. Comm. Bigelow: O.K. How Then Is The Lawsuit Continuing? I Mean What -- How Will You Be Managing The Lawsuit Here For? Well, Right Now We're In Settlement Discussions. We Have Challenged The Master D.O. Based On Water And Transportation Issues And We're Discussing That Hoping To Achieve Settlement. If We Feel As Though We Have Achieved Settlement We'll Bring The Proposal For You For Acceptance. Once The Lawsuit Is Settled, Things Will Start To Move Quickly In Terms Of Providing Us With The Information And We'll Have To Amend The Plan In Recognition Of The Road Improvements. Comm. Bigelow: O.K. I Think It's Safe To Say This Stems From And We're Here With A Memorandum Of Understanding And I Back Up Commissioner Janes With This Big Work And It Was A Laudable Effort. But We're Still Engaged And In A Tug Of War With Babcock. Those Are My Words. You Don't Have To Accept Them. And We Still Have Some Heavy Lifting To Do. I Want To Put The Record Straight That We Haven't Yet -- We're Not Ready To Sing Kumbaya. That's My Impression Of The Place We Find Ourselves Right Now With Babcock. We've Got Some Work To Do.



That's Right. We're Engaged In Dialogue To This Day Trying To Resolve Our Differences. Comm. Bigelow: O.K. Thank You, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Judah: Certainly. Further Discussion? Objection? Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. We'll Go Onto The Appeals Agenda. Comm. Hall: Appeals? Comm. Janes: Oh, O.K. Chairman Judah: Yeah, The Understood Parties. Thank You. Good Morning. Gregory Hagen. This Is A Bid For A Test Appeal. It's A Protest In Number Q 080397. The Annual Purchase And Lease Of Copiers. You Should Have A Memo From Me Dated September 16 Outlining The Facts, Issue And Procedure For This Morning's Hearing. The Protest Concerns A Two-Step Selection Process To Obtain A County-Wide Copy Or Lease Purchase Agreement. In The First Step Quotes Were Requested To Submit Company And Product Qualifications For Committee Review. If The Evaluation Committee Passed On Those Companies Then There Was A Second Step To Open The Pricing That Each Of The Quoters Had Submitted. The Review Was To Determine Whether Each Quoter Had Fully Responded To The County Specifications And Was Qualified To Go On. The County Received Eight Sealed Qualifications. The Evaluation Committee Met, Reviewed The Qualifications, Found Four Of The Eight Firms Qualified To Go Onto Step Two. One Of The Disqualified Firms Xerox Technologies Has Filed



This Bid Protest. We Had A Bid Dispute Committee Meeting On September 3. The Dispute Committee Heard From Both Xerox And One Of The Other Submitters, Ikon, And They Are Recommending That The Board Reject This Bid Protest. We Have Two Formal Parties For You To Hear This Morning, Xerox And Ikon. I Understand You Have Cards From Other Interested Parties. Typically You Start With The Protester, Go To Any Other Party That Participated In The Bid Dispute Committee Hearing And Then Either Take The Other Parties During The Public Comment Section Or After The First Two Had Gone And That Seems To Be The Case This Morning. Then We Typically Offer A Five-Minute Rebuttal To Each Of The Two Main Parties And You Can, Of Course, Ask Staff Questions At Any Time. I Will Be Here To Answer Questions As Well. Just Briefly, The Issue Is Essentially Whether The Equipment Offered By Xerox Document Technologies Meets The County Requirements That All Copiers Submitted For Consideration Be New Equipment. That's What You Will Be Hearing About This Morning. Comm. Mann: The What Equipment? Comm. Hall: New. New As Opposed To Refurbished, Remanufactured, Used But Realized, Any Other Terms Used In The Industry. Chairman Judah: O.K. Commissioner Bigelow? Comm. Bigelow: Thank You. Greg, Can You Tell Me Who Made Up The Bid Dispute Committee? Not Who Made It Up Because It's Set By -- Who Was On The Committee? Janet Can Tell You. Holly Swartz, Madeline Rollings And Myself. I'm The Permanent Chair In Purchasing. Comm. Bigelow: And That's Janet Sheehan For The Record. Yes. Comm. Bigelow: Thank You.



Greg, Can You Tell Me -- Am I Understanding Correctly That There Were Two Envelopes Submitted By Each Bidder And Xerox Was Rejected After The Opening -- Phase One Opening. After The First Envelope Was Opened And The Qualifications Considered. Comm. Bigelow: Then The Qualifications -- It Was Described Clearly As To What Xerox Was Proposing To Offer? That's Where The Remanufactured And Whatever Other Words You Gave To The Products That They Were Proposing? Yes. If You Have My Memo, I Believe It's Page Four. There Is An Excerpt Taken Directly From The Submission. Essentially What They Have Said Is They Propose To Furnish Other Types Of Equipment Which I Have Called Xerox New Equipment Because It's Been Remanufactured Or Refurbished In Some Way. Comm. Bigelow: Can You Take Me To Page Four And Show Me That? That's Under Almost The Next To Last Paragraph. It's Page Four, The Second To Last Paragraph. The Course Dates, I Can Read It If You Want. But It's Right There. Comm. Bigelow: What Part? It's In Quotes, Second Part. Either Newly Manufactured Or New Model Equipment Currently Manufactured By Xerox And Are Defined As New -- So Essentially They Defined New Different. Comm. Bigelow: No, No. I Want To Know What They Said -- Comm. Hall: That's What They Said. That's The Quote. Comm. Bigelow: That's What Xerox Is Saying? I'm Sorry. I Thought That Was Our Qualifier. No. Our Request Is On Page Three. It's The Third To The Last Paragraph Highlighted. That's What We Asked For.



Comm. Bigelow: This Is The Point I Was Getting At. They're Saying We Will Provide Either Newly Manufactured -- Brand New -- Or This Alternative. Right? This Alternative Being The Remanufactured, The Whatever, Right? I Don't Think They Quite Put It In Alternative Terms. They Said This Is What We Will Furnish. One Of These Two Defined Items. During The Bid Dispute Hearing I Will Tell You They Offered To Recede From The Initial Offering And Said, Well, Wait, We Will Furnish All New Equipment. That May Be What They Want To Tell You This Morning As Well But That's Not What Offered Initially. Comm. Bigelow: I'm Reading The Words You Just Read Into The Record And Provided In The Memo And It Says, Quote, Dot-Dot-Dot Either Newly Manufactured Or Factory Produced New Model Equipment Which Are Currently Manufactured By Xerox Defined As New. Further, Newly Manufactured Equipment May Contain Some Recycled Components. I Get The Sense They Are Making Offerings And That It's Not Clear To Me That The Staff Would Later Be Precluded From Selecting Remanufactured At A Lower Cost Or The Newly Manufactured -- And One Other Point. I Think, Did They Not Justify This Offering As Being Potentially Environmentally Sensitive In That They Would Be Reusing, Recycling? That Is An Argument They Have Made, Yes. Comm. Bigelow: That Was In The First Envelope? That Was Part Of The First Envelope And In Their Formal Bid Protest I Think They Submitted Something Like 40 Pages More Explaining The Environmental Impact Of This Alternative Offering. Comm. Bigelow: One Other Question. Certainly. Comm. Bigelow: If They Don't Prevail Here, What Happens? Can They Take It To Circuit Court Or What? Presumably They Could. Comm. Bigelow: O.K. Yes, But Otherwise The Staff Will Go Ahead And Open The Pricing On The Four Qualified Firms And We'll Go From There.



Comm. Bigelow: Thank You. Chairman Judah: Greg, As Far As The Process Here, The Protesting Party Will Have The Opportunity To Make A Presentation About Ten-Minutes And Then Ikon Will Have An Opportunity To Respond. As Far As Rebuttals, Maybe Janet Could -- Typically Five Minutes For The Rebuttal. The Only Other Thing I'd Add Is Some Of The Parties Have More Than One Representative Here. Typically We Have Limited The Presentation To One Representative Rather Than Having Four Or Five People All Speak For The Same Party. Chairman Judah: I Guess If We Have Ten Minutes Everyone Could Speak Within That. It's Your Discretion. Chairman Judah: O.K. Comm. Bigelow: One Question Following That Up, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Judah: O.K. Comm. Bigelow: Greg, Is This Defined In The Dispute Resolution? All Part Of The Bid Protest Procedure And The Purchasing Manual Regulations. Comm. Bigelow: I'm Talking Specifically About The Amount Of Time Provided. It's Subject To The Board's Discretion, But The Basic Guidelines Are Laid Out In Procedures. Chairman Judah: Thank You, Greg. We'll Hear From Gary Spackle With Xerox. Followed By Gusta Lopez. Good Morning, Sir. Good Morning. How Are You? Chairman Judah: Fine, Thank You. Good Morning. Thank You For The Opportunity To Hear Our Voices, Commission. I Think We're Just A Victim Of Circumstance With The Misinterpretation Of The Language Submitted By Our Technical Department In Presenting The Facts As Far As What's Termed.



We're A Manufacture Of Equipment, Not Like Most Folks In The Industry Which Are Just Distributors Of The Equipment. So The Mother Ship Sometimes Makes Double Talk And Over Talk About What We're Going To Submit On A Contract, For Instance. And The Attorney Here Stated That It's Correct That In Order To Meet The County's New Equipment Requirements Xerox Will Provide Either Newly Manufactured Or Factory Produced New Model Equipment. Us Being A Manufacture Of The Equipment, We Do Redesign Equipment At Times And Reserialize Them And Put Them Back Into The Market, But They Are New Equipment. O.K.? And Then In The Second Protest We Came Before And Just Said It Was A Misinterpretation Of The Language That We First Submitted To The Parties Involved And Then We Stated That We're Providing All New Equipment For This Contract So There Wouldn't Be Any Discrepancies Of What We Are Really Offering Towards The Contract. And So All We're Asking At This Point Is To Be Allowed To Be Able To Present Our Prices To The County And Be Fairly Judged About What's The Lowest, Best Cost For The Interest Of The County In Our Proposal. We're Saying That We're Presenting All New Equipment To The County On This Contract. Want To Follow Up Here? Yes, Basically The Equipment For Lee County Like He Said, We Are The Manufacturer Of The Equipment, Not Dealers And Things Like That. So We Basically Know The Equipment -- They're Brand New. Like He Said, That Was A Misinterpretation In The Language, But Basically The Equipment We're Going To Provide To Lee County Are Brand New Equipment, Not Refurbished And Not Used Or Remanufactured Equipment And We Say That On The Affidavit And It's Simple. We're Providing Brand New Machines To Lee County. We Supplied A 40-Page Document And Being A Global Company We Are Concerned About Plastics And Preventing Extra Things From Landing In Landfills. It's Just A Misinterpretation Of The Language. We're Supplying All New Equipment For The County And All We Ask Is To Go To The Pricing Page Of The Contract And Be Allowed To Present Our Prices. If We Get Beat By Another Lowest Responsive Bidder We Accept That. But To Be Presented From Not Going To The Pricing Part Doesn't Seem Fair.



Chairman Judah: O.K. There Is Another Gentleman -- Is It Rowan? Is He With Your Team? He's Back Here. Chairman Judah: He's Welcome To Speak Also. Any Other Questions You May Have That We May Be Able To Answer For You? Comm. Hall: Not At This Time. Comm. Mann: I Don't Know The Process Here. Can We Ask Them Questions? Comm. Hall: They Have A Ten-Minute Presentation? Chairman Judah: Go Ahead. Comm. Mann: The Whole Issue Seems To Be Whether Or Not This Is New Equipment. That's What I Hear You Responding To, But In Skimming The Staff Report Here There Seems To Be Serious Upset And Heartburn On The Staff's Part That You Are, In Fact, Offering Remanufactured Equipment, But You Seem So Certain. How Did We Get So Far Off Track Here? This Has Never Been Sold To Somebody Else, Repossessed, Rebuilt? It's Been On The Shelf In Your Factories And Would Be Absolutely Brand New, Never Touched By Human Hands And That Sort Of Thing? They Would Be Touched By Human Hands And -- Comm. Mann: But This Would Have Been The First Time It Would Have Been Retailed? How Would You Think This Misunderstanding -- I Would Presume That It's Just Like Sometimes It's A Misinterpretation Of The Language That Was Written By Our Staff Of Attorneys And Excuse Me, But Double Talking Things And Confusing The Issue At Some Point. We're A Global Company That Stands Up. We Have Won Numerous Awards Of What We Do. Three Years In A Row We Won The Jd Power Association Poll Satisfaction Guarantee. We're Guaranteed You Have Total Satisfaction To Any Equipment We Present And Supply To The County. No Ifs, Ands Or Buts. If They're Not Satisfied We Replace It. It's A Stronger Guarantee Than Ten Acres Of Garlic. Comm. Mann: We're Talking About Whether Or Not It's New Equipment. It's Brand New Equipment. The County Would Be The First User Of The Equipment.



Comm. Mann: Thank You, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Judah: Mr. Tisch? Would You Like To Comment? Yes. Thank You. The Terms And Conditions Submitted To Lee County Are The Same Terms And Conditions Submitted To Every County That We Go Against. It's Not Made Specifically For You. Every County Requests New Equipment Like Yourself. Every Customer Requests New Equipment Just Like Yourself. We Don't Remanufacture Equipment And Reserialize Them After Somebody Uses Them And Sell It To You Without Notice. That's Very Clear. Thank You. Chairman Judah: You Will Have A Chance For Rebuttal, If You Have Concluded Your Comments. O.K.? Thank You, Gentlemen. We'll Hear From Ikon. John Kuney? Followed By Rodney Todd. Good Morning. For The Record John Kanine With Ikon. Our Statement Is Short And Sweet. The Rfq Everybody Responded To Has A Note In Bombed And Underlined Stating Only New Product Will Be Acceptable. Used, Remanufactured, Refurbished Shall Not Be Quoted Or Supplied Under Any Circumstances. To That We Would Add That Xerox Has Made The Decision As To The Build Status Of The Equipment. If They Felt They Could Label The Equipment As New They Would Have Simply Called It New Equipment.



And They Didn't. So This Puts All The Vendors Here All The A Price Disadvantage Because We Are, In Fact, Buying Brand New Equipment From The Manufacturers To Supply For This Bid. Chairman Judah: Thank You, Sir. Rodney Todd Followed By Vincent Ferlaney. Good Morning. Good Morning. I'm With Jm Todd Company. I'm Agreeing With Ikon. If You Look At Step One And Two, Page Four, Step One. Page 24, Step Two. The Definition As Written By The Purchasers To Us, The Vendor Was Only New Product Will Be Acceptable. It Goes On, Not New, Remanufactured, Refurbished. We Adhered To That. New Product. All The Vendors Adhered To That Except Xerox. We Are Put At A Competitive Disadvantage If They Have A Used Remanufactured Part. That's Our Stance. Thanks For Your Time. Chairman Judah: Thank You. Vincent Ferlaney Followed By Alexander Nitker. Good Morning. Good Morning. I Am With Rico Business Solutions.



We Are A Manufacturer Of Equipment And I Guess The Words That Xerox Used The Oversight From The Mother Ship Pointed Out That We Didn't Make The Oversight. We're Providing Brand New Equipment For You. Having Spent 11 Years With Xerox, I Want To Define What They're Saying. It Is New Equipment Being Used With Remanufactured Parts. That Puts Us At A Competitive Disadvantage When We Are Using New Equipment With New Parts. Thanks. Chairman Judah: Thank You, Sir Alexander Snitker? Good Morning, Sir. Good Morning. For The Record, Alexander Snitker. Thanks For The Opportunity To Speak Today. I'm Here To Explain Why We Believe Xerox Shouldn't Be Allowed To Compete. It Clearly States Only New Product Will Be Acceptable. Used, Remanufactured, Refurbished Etc. Combiment Shall Not Be Quoted Or Supplied Under Any Circumstances Unless Otherwise Directed By The County Representative. For Example, Should It Become Necessary To Place A Loner Machine For A Brief Period Of Time. Xerox States In Its Own Protest That The Machines It Will Provide Are Either Newly Manufactured Or Factory Produced New Model Equipment. Newly Manufactured Is Not New. If It Was It Would Just Say New. The Bid That Lee County Put Out Was Specific. It Was In Bold Letters On Page 14 And If Xerox Had Done Due Diligence It Would Have Brought It Up In The Pre-Bid Meetings That We Had. This Shows To Me And Lee County A Lack Of Attention To Detail On Xerox's Part. Now Xerox Is Asking You To Change The Bid After The Other Companies That Followed The Rules That Very Submitted Their Pricing.



I Believe It Is Unfair To Let Xerox Proceed To Step Two And To Compete With The Companies That Read The Bid And Followed The Rules Therein. Thank You For Your Time. Have A Great Day. Chairman Judah: Thank You, Sir. I Would Like To Offer It Back To Xerox For Rebuttal Comments. Comm. Janes: Did You Want Discussion Or Questions Before They Rebut? Chairman Judah: Well, They're Here Now. Were There Members Of The Board That -- We'll Have The Opportunity. Comm. Janes: All Right. O.K. Chairman Judah: Gentlemen. Like We Said, We're Submitting New Equipment. We're The Manufacturers Of It. The Majority Of These People Are Presenting Their Services To You, Can't Guarantee You That The Products They Sell Don't Have Reconditioned Parts F. You Look At The Websites On All The Manufacturers In Industry They Tell You They Make An Effort To Use Reconditioned Parts. We're Not Here To Slander The Competition. We Just Want The Right To Present Our Prices. We're Guaranteeing The County That We Did Read The Bid Specifications. We Did Submit A Proposal And As It Was A Missed Interpretation Of The Language That We Submitted To The County. That's All It Was. Chairman Judah: Thank You. All We're Asking Is -- Chairman Judah: Let Me Turn It To Commissioner Janes And Commissioner Mann. Comm. Janes: I Had A Question I Will Ask Of You.



That Is Had The Bid Been Opened And Looked At You Would Have Had The Option Of Submitting Reconditioned Or Reused Parts You Would Have Had That. You Define That As New. We Do Not. That's What The Other Companies Are Objecting To. If I May -- Comm. Janes: Let Me Finish The Question First. Then You Can Rebut. You Understand That's The Problem I've Got Is That The Original Bid Was Quite Clear And The Bid Request Was Clear In What They Wanted From You And You Indicated In Your Response That It Would Be Either Or. New Parts Or Reconditioned. To Me, That's On Its Face Not Responsive. First Of All -- Comm. Janes: Go Ahead And Answer Now. First Of All, Xerox Is A Global Company. The Language Is Basically For The Customers. Just For The Fact That We Don't Sell Used Or Remanufactured Equipment In The United States. We Do Sell Used Equipment In Developing Markets But Not In U.S.A. Especially For These Accounts Because Like My Colleague Said Every Government Entity Requires New Equipment. We're Providing To Lee County New Equipment. If You Read The Way The Specifications Are Written Though It Could Go On And On As Far As The Definition Of What's Requested By The County And What Truly Defines New Equipment Or Reconditioned Or Remanufactured Equipment. So If We, For Example, Make The Presentation In Our Proposal Of What We're Writing Down Here, It's Just An Interpretation Of Language. It Doesn't Clearly State -- We Could Go On And On What Your Request Was For The Product Or The Specifications And Stuff As Far As What's Classified And Defined As New, Used, Refurbished Or Reconditioned. We Answered To The Best Of Our Ability On Your Initial Presentation Of What We Thought



Would Cover Those Bases. We Stand Here Before You Stating Clearly That We're Providing All New Equipment Without A Shadow Of A Doubt To The County. In The Last Paragraph It Basically Stated Clearly That Xerox Warrants That None Of The Equipment Will Be Recycled, Refurbished Or Used And The Government Will Be The First User Of The Equipment. Any Equipment Manufactured. Comm. Hall: That Was In The Bid? Not In The Protest? Right. We've Not Putting Anybody At A Competitive Disadvantage By Presenting Our Prices. If Our Competitors Are Assured Of Themselves When They Present The Numbers They May Beat Us By Price. We Don't Know. We Want To Present Our Numbers To The County And Then You Choose What's In The Best Interest Of The Taxpayers' Money. Comm. Hall: I'm Ready To Go To Staff. Chairman Judah: I Need To Hear From Ikon In Their Rebuttal. Any Other Questions Right Now? Comm. Mann: Yes. One Of The Fellows Came Up Before You Who Said He Used To Work With Xerox And Referred To Remanufactured Parts. Deal With That. There Is Some Technicality Here. Everybody's In Favor Of Recycling. We Crush Stuff All The Time And It Comes Out As A Brand New Something. You're Not Telling Me Something Here That These Guys Are Jumping Up And Down About. Like I Mentioned Before Xerox Corporation Is A Global Company And We Do -- We Refurbish Some Equipment We Sell In Development Markets. In The United States Or Any Government Entity, We Can't Sell Used Equipment Unless We Specify Up Front Basically. So The Equipment We're Providing To Lee County Are Brand New Equipment.



You're Going To Be The First User. Comm. Mann: There Are No Recycled Or Remanufactured Parts Inside Of That? No, Sir. Xerox Has Never Seen This Individual Before. We're Not Sure Where They Are Getting Their Parts Or -- Comm. Mann: Just Giving You An Opportunity -- We're Presenting New Equipment. We Signed The Affidavit Stating We Are Providing New Equipment To The Company. I Don't Know What Else We Can Do To Say Our Point. The Bid Clearly Says It's Looking For New Manufactured Equipment Which We Are Providing. I Think What The Gentleman Was Saying Is That Parts Like Drums Or Fusers, Stuff Like That Get Sent Back To Xerox Where We Remanufacture Some Of Those Parts, Those Fusing Stuff And The Other Manufacturers Do The Same Stuff In Terms Of The Drums. That's Part Of The Recycling Program. Not The Equipment. Equipment You Get Today From The Delivery Of Xerox Is Brand New Like The Vendors Are Proposing. The Drums That Are Spent Are Being Used. The Consumables. That's The Parts He's Mentioning About. Chairman Judah: O.K. We'll Hear From The Other Party. Commissioner Bigelow? Comm. Bigelow: Question. Chairman Judah: Gentlemen, Hold On. Comm. Bigelow: One Moment. I'm Sorry. Comm. Bigelow: If You Were Granted The Agreement Or Any Of The Companies And Ikon, I Guess Was Granted The -- Does This Include The Maintenance Of The Equipment So You Come Back And Monitor The Toner Levels And Whatnot? Yes.



Comm. Bigelow: When You Put The Toner Cartridge In, Are Those Always Brand New Or Are Those Cartridges -- The Containers Remanufactured? Any Time I Can As A Private Consumer Gets A Cheaper Price For A Toner Cartridge Just Because The Container Is Reused, I Go For It. Is That What You Would Do? You Know, Use The Reused Toner Cartridge? Would You Do That? Every Company In This Industry In Terms Of The Toners And Things Like That To Protect -- They Sell The Cartridges And If They Have A Manufacturing Plant Like Xerox Does They Will Basically Reuse Only The Consumables Of The Equipment Which Is The Toners And Things Like That. And It Will Be Not Environmentally Conscious To Do That. Comm. Bigelow: Right. I Don't Want You To Speak For Them, But Can I Expect That They Would Say They Do The Same Thing? Right? If You Go To Their Website, The Consumables, They Definitely -- They Follow The Same Rules We Do At The Manufacturing Facilities And Things Like That. We Make Hp-Compatible Cartridges With The Same Guarantee For Hp Products And Xerox Is The Only One Doing That. Chairman Judah: O.K. We'll Hear From Ikon. Thank You, Gentlemen. In Trying To Make This Simple You Have Heard From A Bunch Of People With Similar Questions That You Have Come Back With. This Is Really About The Build Status Of The Equipment. Now We Responded With Brand New Which Is Just What You Would Think And N Any Other Consumer Or Business Product -- Never Used Before. Xerox Has Other Build Statuses And They Say Here The County Will Be The First User Of The Newly Remanufactured And Factory Produced New Model Of Equipment. And On As They Said. They Guarantee It And Stand Bep Hind It. Going Out, There Is Something That You're Not Hearing And What You're Not Hearing Is What Do They Define These As. The Way They Define Them Is I Have A Document Here From An Independent Source And It's Public Information.



Basically The Title Tells You A Lot. What You Have Always Wanted To Know About Xerox Build Status But Never Dared To Ask. What It Is Basically They Talk About Three. The Third One Is Remanufactured And They Have Stated They Are Not Responding With Remanufactured. The Two They Are Responding With Are Newly Manufactured And Factory Produced New Model. This Information Basically Says -- And This Is Their Definition -- Equipment That Has Been Assembled For The First Time From New Parts. It May Also Contain Some Used Components That Have Been Reprocessed To New Part Standards. That's A Newly Manufactured Product. Under That It Talks About What Percent Of Those Parts Would Be Not Brand New, Reprocessed. They Don't Have It In Writing In A Written Format But They Conclude That Based On Numerous Discussions It's Somewhere Around 20% Of The Part Content. So That's Where We See The Competitive Disadvantage. Had We Had The Ability To Quote Remanufactured Or Certified, As We Call It, Which Would Be Comparable To This, Our Cost Basis Would Be Lower. The Second Status Is A Factory Produced New Model. That Is Xerox Equipment Converted To The New Model Status And Maintains Features And/Or Functions Of The Previous Model And Adds New Features And/Or Functions Not Available On The Previous Model. The New Model Is Disassembled To Standards Established By Xerox. They Do Build Them. So They Disassemble It And Remanufacture It To New Model Status. It Has A New Serial Model. The New Model Contains Reprocessed And/Or Recovered Parts That Fully Meet New Product Specs.



So They Meet New Product Specs But Obviously The Cost Basis In Those Parts Put Into This Factory Produced New Model, As They Term It, Are Not All New. I Mean, That's Where We Feel And The Other Vendors You're Hearing Expressed Here Is We're At A Competitive Disadvantage From A Price Perspective Because We Followed The Rules. It Says New Product. Chairman Judah: Thank You. Mr. Todd? No? Mr. Ferlaney? Mr. Snedeker? Yes. Thank You Again. Chairman Judah: Certainly. I Think The Reason There Is An Issue Is Because There Was Ample Opportunity In Two Pre-Bid Meetings For Xerox To Better Define The Definition Of New. They Failed To Do So. They Did Not Look At The Bid Strong Enough To Raise A Question In The Pre-Bid Meeting Which Is Why The Question Is Being Raised Now. It Is Our Belief That If You Don't Read The Right Thing Or Don't Understand It The Right Way And Then Later On Say, Well, I Didn't Understand It The Right Way That You Shouldn't Be Rewarded For That. The Bids Are Very Specific. They Take A Lot Of Time To Put Together. Other Companies, Myself And Others, Took The Time To Read The Bid Correctly And Do Everything We Needed To Do. They Did Not. Because Of That, Once It Comes To You Guys They Want To At That Point Change The Rules Because Their Definition Of New Isn't New. If It Was New It Would Just Say New. That's All I Have. Chairman Judah: Thank You. We'll Go Back To Janet.



If You Could Please Step Forward. Open It Up To Commissioner Hall. Comm. Hall: Thank You. Janet, It Sounds Like If Xerox Had Put New Rather Than The Standard Boilerplate Response To Every County Bid, I Guess, In The Country, We Wouldn't Be Here Today. Right. Janet Sheehan For The Record. That Is Correct. Comm. Hall: I Guess That's Where I Have An Issue. I Can Appreciate Working For A Global Company, But We're A Local Government With A Local Bid Out To Bid And I Can Appreciate That At Some Point In Time When You're Responding To Government You Have To Follow The Bid. There Should Be Some Latitude From, I Guess, Their Mother Ship To The Local Ship That They Can Respond In A Way That Verbally Doesn't Have To Be Explained Through Later Documentation That This Is New. So At This Point I Find It Difficult To Not Support Where Staff Is Going With This. This Is Really A Wordsmithing Issue. If You Read The Definition Of What They're Saying You Really Can't Interpret That It's 100% New. So I Agree With Staff On This Point In That They Really Probably Need To Address Their Local Bidding Process As Local Bids Are Put Out To Their Corporation To Give Them Latitude To Clean Up Language. What It Sounds Like To Me Is They're Putting In The Words And If You Look At The Definition, It's Not What They're Saying. So They're Conflicting With Themselves In Their Own Document. That Is Correct. I Think This Is A Standard Boilerplate That Xerox Corporation Uses And They Do Have To Address This In Many Protests Around The State And They Don't Always Win. They Do Not. But On What Xerox Mentioned Earlier, I Did Want To State That Although The Equipment



May Contain Some Reconditioned Components, That Was In Their Official Protest Which Goes Against What The Spec Says. The Other Issue I Wanted To Mention Is We Do Currently Recycle Our Toner Cartridges. Our Current Vendor Picks Those Up. Plus We Also Recycle Cartridges Throughout The County For Barbara's Friends. We Have That Process. One Thing That Didn't Come Up Today Is It Was Required To Have Five References. They Submitted Five References, But We Could Only Get A Hold Of -- I Think It Was Three. So They Failed As Well On References Because We Could Not Get A Hold Of The Other Two Prior To The Dispute Committee Meeting. Comm. Bigelow: Can I Ask -- They Had To Provide Five References Before They Were Heard By The Dispute Committee? No. We Had References As Part Of The Qualification. They Provided Five But We Could Only Get A Hold Of Three. We Were Not Able To Contact All Five. Comm. Bigelow: Before You Opened Up -- Before The Dispute -- I'm Sorry. Before The Evaluation Committee Met. Thank You. Comm. Bigelow: O.K. Gotcha. Commissioner Bigelow? Comm. Bigelow: Who Sat On The Evaluation Committee? It Was Holly Swartz Representing County Administration, Marilyn Rollings -- Comm. Bigelow: Is This The Same As The Dispute Committee? I Asked About Them Earlier. I'm Sorry. I'm Mixed Up. It Was Bob Francis-Geeney, The Project Manager. He's Here.



Peter Cloutier From Public Works, Internal Services And Myself. Comm. Bigelow: You Sat On The Dispute Committee? Yes, I Did Both. Comm. Bigelow: Hmm. O.K. Because The County Ordinance Requires That I Sit On The Dispute Committee And I Also Sat In On The Evaluation Committee. I Did. Comm. Bigelow: O.K. Hmm. Peter Works Under Jim Lavender And Bob Works Under Who? Me. Comm. Bigelow: Works Under You. O.K. I Have Another Issue To Discuss Here With Respect To This Process. In This Particular Instance You've Got Eight Submittals And You Opened Them Up. You Reviewed Them As A Committee And You Rejected Four. Yes. Comm. Bigelow: You Then Moved Forward To The Second Part Which Was To Open Up The Bids Only Those You Did Not Reject. Right? And Then It Was The Low Bidder Of The Four That You Didn't Reject That Then Was Awarded The Contract? Ikon? Well, Step One Is Opened During Our Quote Opening. And At That Time Some Of Them Were Rejected Because They Didn't Acknowledge The Addendum -- A Couple Of Them Didn't. One Was Rejected Because Of The Refurbished Or Recycled Components -- Comm. Bigelow: That Was Xerox? The Protester? Yes. Also The References. So It's Not Just Recycled And Refurbished But Also The References. Comm. Bigelow: O.K., But That's Not In Here.



Comm. Janes: No, It's Not Relevant. It's On Your Blue Sheet, I Believe. In The Background Area. It Was Brought Up At The Dispute Committee Meeting. Comm. Bigelow: O.K. Well, They Provided Four Though, Right And The Fact -- Three. Comm. Bigelow: The Fact That We Can't Get A Hold Of Them? Well, We Got A Hold Of All The Others We Needed. But We Couldn't Get -- Was It Kraft? And Someone Else. Chairman Judah: Chair Will Entertain A Motion -- Comm. Janes: I'm Going To Move That We Uphold Staff On The Recommendation. Chairman Judah: Motion By Commissioner Janes. Comm. Hall: Second. Chairman Judah: I, Too, Feel Strongly About The Specificity Of The Bid Document. I Also Feel Strongly About Being More Flexible In The Future To Encourage Remanufactured Reconditioned Equipment. We Need To Have That Brought Before Management Planning To Have The Discussion. Comm. Janes: Mr. Chairman, Let Me Concur. I Agree With What You're Saying But We Need To Be Clear At The Outset What We Mean. Are You Going To Allow Reconditioned Or Does It Have To Be Strictly New? Whatever It Says, We Have To Follow. Chairman Judah: I Don't Disagree. That's Why I'm Upholding The Dispute Committee. But I Would Like To Have The Issue Discussed For The Future. Comm. Hall: There Are Several Levels Not Just On This, But As We Go Forward The County Is Trying To Be As Green As Possible. I Think It's Great To Bring It To M & P And Have A Global Discussion About It.



Chairman Judah: Holly And Janet. Janet Was Probably Going To Say That Staff Brought It Up And Felt It Was Necessary To Follow Up On The Green Status Of Remanufactured, Refurbished, But The Response Was What We're Finding Is That Sometimes In Copiers The Remanufactured Was -- It Produced More Breakdowns And Was Less Reliable. Chairman Judah: That's Why We Need To Have The Discussion. Good Point. Comm. Bigelow: Let Me Ask A Question. Chairman Judah: I Apologize, Commissioner Bigelow. I Promised Janet She Could Follow Up. That's Fine. Chairman Judah: O.K. Commissioner Bigelow. Comm. Bigelow: Who Do We Currently Have A Contract With? Janet? We Don't Have A Contract. The Contracts Have Run Out. We Were -- Comm. Bigelow: Previously. We Were Piggy-Backing City Of Cape Coral. We Were Using Some State Contracts. We've Got Xerox. We've Got Ikon. Favin, Rico. We Have Several Different Copiers Throughout. But Cannon Probably Is The Predominant Copier Right Now. Comm. Bigelow: Going From Several Suppliers To -- To One. Comm. Bigelow: A Single Supplier. Single Supplier.



Chairman Judah: Under Discussion? Comm. Bigelow: I'm Going To Not Support The Motion. Comm. Mann: My Bottom Line Summary -- And I Agree With What You're Saying, I Think We Need To Review The Policy For Long-Term. For Now It Strikes Me As We're Going To A Lot Of Trouble To Limit Competition. That Is Not An N The Taxpayers' Best Interest. I'm Not As Hung Up As Some Of The Other Folks Are. I'm Not Supporting The Motion. Chairman Judah: Let Me Clarify. We Have Four Vendors Out There Getting To The Second Round For Pricing. Janet, You Talked About Barbara's Friends And People Need To Understand That Thanks To You And Dr. Browder The School Board Is Interested In Donating Toner Cartridges To The Pediatric Cancer Unit At Lee Memorial And Health Park To Raise Much-Needed Money For The Program. We Thank The School Board And Further Discussion? Objection? Motion Passes 3-2 Commissioners Bigelow And Mann Dissenting. Comm. Bigelow: If I Could -- Chairman Judah: Commissioner Bigelow. Comm. Bigelow: Dan, We Have One Evaluation Committee That Sits On The Bid Dispute Committee. That Doesn't Pass The Smell Test For Me. Chairman Judah: This Issue's Been Resolved. Comm. Bigelow: That's A Discussion With Me And The County Manager. I Just Want To Put It Out In The Public. Chairman Judah: Walk-On Item Number One. Comm. Hall: Public Hearing Or Walk-On? Chairman Judah: You Are Correct. We Need To Go To Public Hearings. The First Item Is The North Point Dri Development Agreement. Direct A Second Public Hearing.



Comm. Janes: I Move That We Direct It To A Second Public Hearing. Chairman Judah: Let's Get Something On The Record. Comm. Hall: I Second. Chairman Judah: Please Get It On The Record If You Would. I Have Reviewed The Notice Of Intent To Amend The Development Agreement For This And I Enter It Onto The Record Now. Chairman Judah: Anything Else? I Can. Chairman Judah: Anybody From The Public Wish To Comment On The Item Before Outs Regarding The First Amendment To The Dri Development Agreement? Back To The Board. Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Onto The Second Item. Conduct Public Hearing Of School Impact Fee Schedule. Good Morning. Rob Spickerman. Public Agenda Item Two Is For The Adoption Of An Ordinance Amending Chapter Two Of The Code. More Specifically The Ordinance Amends Section 2-405 And Section 2-407 Regarding School Impact Fees. I Have Reviewed The Affidavit Of Publication As To Form And Content And Find That It Is Legally Sufficient To Proceed With This Matter. I Am Entering Into The Record At This Time. The Local Planning Agency Reviewed The Ordinance And Found It Was Consistent With The Lee Plan And The Affordable Housing Committee Recommended Adoption Of The Ordinance. Mary Gibbs, Clancy Mull Lynns And Represents From The School Board Are Present For Questions. Chairman Judah: Mary? Do You Want To Add To Information In Terms Of What We're Approving With Regards To Adjusting The Impact Fee Downward? The Study Done By The Consultant Last Month Showed The Fees Would Decline Approximately 5% And That's What The Committee Has Recommended Adopting Because They’re Going Down. If You Adopt That It Would Become Effective Tomorrow.



So Basically We're Here To Answer Questions And Don't Forget To Take The Public Input. Chairman Judah: Even Though It's A Reduction In Land Prices It Was A Construction Cost That Evidently Almost Balanced Things Out. Well, The Land Cost Went Down But There Were Different Factors In The Millage Rates That Changed And Affected The Credits. It Was Almost A Wash, But Not Quite. Comm. Hall: I'll Move The Item. Do You Need -- Chairman Judah: We Need Public Input. Thank You Commissioner Hall. Mike, Good Morning. Michael Wrightman With The Lee Building Association. I Would Just Like To Make A Few Comments. We Always Appreciate As An Industry And Home Buyers That We Have A Rare Decrease In Any Impact Fee. But I Would Just Like To Make You Aware -- And I'm Sure You Are -- That In February This Actually This Study Was Completed In February. At That Time You Did Not Adopt It. I Assume It's Probably Because Of The Comments From The School Board Because There Was A 14% Reduction Proposed. I Believe That At That Time We Did Not Approve It Because The State Legislature Still Had Not Considered How Much Money They Were Going To Provide Because There Are Many, Many Factors In Calculating Impact Fees And I Think That You Have Discussed In More Intimate Detail About Purchasing Copying Equipment Than You Ever Have Discussed Impact Fee Ordinance Which Has As Many Intricate Elements Involved. I'm Glad That We Are All Friends Here And That This Is A Local Issue With Dr. Browder And Mr. Martin And The Commissioners. But Really In Those Few Months, We Know That Over The Last 18 Months Land Costs Have Decreased Dramatically. Student Enrollment Has Dropped And Is Still Dropping. Charter Schools Are Being Approved By The School Board On An Ongoing Basis Which



Takes Away From The Physical Classroom Space Or Student Stations That Are Needed. And Again, We Waited Until The State Determined That The Funding Formula Was Going To Be Detrimental To How Much Money Was Going To Come Back From The State. That Means The Burden Was Put Back On Local Lee County Citizens. Again, Not That We're Going To Change Anything, But You Need To Be Aware And Consider These Elements. What Our Concern Is That Any Decrease, Any Decrease Will Help The Few Permits Being Issued. We Have Had An 80% Drop In Permits Over The Last 18 Months. So Therefore Anything That Will Stimulate The Few Permitted Homes, Residential Units -- Remember, Commercial Construction Doesn't Pay School Impact Fees But We're Talking About The County, Not Just Unincorporated Lee County But The Municipalities. In Addition To This, I Think You Should Adopt It But I Think You Should Really Consider For One Year Really Suspending The Impact Fees. I Know Tonight We'll Discuss Road Impact Fees In Certain Committees For A One Year Period Set The Tone That You're Really Concerned About The Economy In Lee County And It's Not Going To Impact Dramatically Because There Are Hundreds Of Homes Which Paid The Impact Fees Which Were Never Occupied This Last Year. That Will Offset Because Really The Students Impact. They're A Major Element On Why You Need The Student Stations. But Consider For One Year -- And I Know We'll Address Road Impact Fees -- But Suspending Them Because You Have Collected Impact Fees Over The Last 18 Months For Homes That Were Never Occupied. Thank You Very Much For Considering My Comments. Chairman Judah: Thank You, Michael. Anyone Else From The Public Wish To Comment? Stephanie, Good Morning. Good Morning. Stephanie Keys With The Realtor Association Of Fort Myers And The Beach. We're Here To Support The Report For Following The Formula That The Consultant Came Up With In Reducing School Impact Fees. Of Course The Realtors Do Agree With The General Concept Of Impact Fees.



Of Course They Are Important To Help Raise Infrastructure And Help Pay For New Growth. Unfortunately, Our State Conference Is Starting Tomorrow And So Most Of The Realtors Are Going To Be In Orlando So I Hope You Will Allow My Indulgence To Briefly Mention The Other Impact Fees You Have Coming Up At Public Hearings As Far As Roads And Parks Again Our Attitude Is The Same As It's Been In The Past To Just Please Keep Those -- Hold Those Impact Fees Where You Have Held Them In The Past. Our Understanding Is There Is Probably Not A Large Sentiment To Increase The Impact Fees. We Don't Want To Do Away With Them. We Feel They Have A Place If Balancing The Economy Of Lee County But We Support The Consultant's Report To Lower The School Impact Fees Again Based On That Particular Formula. So We Would Also Ask That You Do Hold The Line On The Road Impact Fees And Not Increase Those And Not Increase The Park Impact Fees. I'm Probably Talking Out Of Turn, But I Hope You Will Respect My Request On That Since I Won't Be At The Other Hearings. Chairman Judah: Thank You, Stephanie. Anyone Else Wish To Comment? Again, Dr. Browder Is Here To Answer Questions. O.K., Mary, Any Follow Up Remarks? Back To The Board. Comm. Janes: Mr. Chairman, Let Me Just Posit Perhaps An Alternative Or Another Suggestion. That Is -- Or An Idea. It May Be Impossible To Do. But I Was Thinking That It Might Be Possible If We Were To Approve Or Not To Approve The Reducing Of These Impact Fees But Merely Waived Them For A Year. And Keep Existing Ones On The Books Because The Market Will Recover And When It Recovers We'll Be Stuck With Impact Fees Below What's Needed To Help Ease The Problem. I Was Wondering If That's Possible To Do. Chairman Judah: We Could Get Comments. I Feel Strongly About The Nexus That We Try To Abide By It.



Comm. Janes: Absolutely. Chairman Judah: With Results Of The Finding Of The Study. I Appreciate What You're Trying To Accomplish. Comm. Janes: I Was Trying To Preserve The Nexus. Comm. Hall: I Agree With You. Right Now I Take To Heart What Mr. Rightman Is Saying To Us. We're Not Going To See A Flood Of Single Family Construction Going On. Maybe One Or Two. There Are Higher End Homes Being Built Obviously. Many Of The Homes The Inventory Is Being Bought Up Now. I Support Lowering Them And That's What The Report Showed And What I Think We Need To Do. I Don't Feel That Waiving Them For A Year Will Trigger An Onslaught Of Single Family Residences Because The Market Can't Absorb Those Now. I Don't Think There Is A Big Advantage To Waiving Them For A Year And I Don't See The Disadvantage Of Lowering Them As We Go Through The Cycles. Once We Start Waiving -- Yeah, I Think Decision As We Work With The School, Are We Accounting For The Impact Fees? There Are 33 Counties In The State With Impact Fees And Several That Don't. There Are Larger Counties Than Ours With Lower Impact Fees. We Could Probably Craft 25 Different Versions Of This, But We Have Come Up With Our Version That We Have Used Consistently. It's Hard For Me Not To Be Consistent So That People Who Aren't Doing Things The Right Way Get An Advantage Over People Who Are Doing Things The Right Way. We're In A Sensitive Economy Now And I Don't Want To Alter Those Who Have Paid The Impact Fees. I Think We Need To Be Mindful Of Not Being Reactionary To The Moment But To Be Reactionary On The Planning Process In The Long Term. I'm Not Here To -- I Emphasize -- My Family's In The Construction Business.



My Brother Was Laid Off, Fortunately Found Another Job. I Get It. I Feel It. I See It. I Get It. I'm More Concerned About The Bigger Picture And How People Sitting There With Inventory Who Paid The Fees And Having Unfair Advantage Because Someone Could Undermine And Lower The Cost Already In The Market. When We Get Done With Discussion I'm Ready To Make The Motion To Approve. Comm. Hall: Motion By Commissioner Hall. Comm. Mann: Second. Chairman Judah: Under Discussion? Anyone Else Wish To Comment? Furs Discussion? Objection? Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Thank You For Your Patience, Dr. Browder. Thank You, Clancy. Comm. Mann: Enjoyed Having You, Dr. Browder. Comm. Janes: Particularly In A Quiescent State. Chairman Judah: O.K. Now We Need To Go Onto Walk-On And Carry-Overs. The First Walk-On. Comm. Hall: Move The Item. Chairman Judah: Motion By Commissioner Hall. Comm. Hall: General Fund To Legal Services. Comm. Janes: Second. Chairman Judah: Discussion? Objection? Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Walk-On Item Number 2. Comm. Hall: I'll Approve The Budget Transfer For The E.M.S. Impact Fees For The Sanibel



Impact Fees Fire Department. Comm. Janes: Second. Chairman Judah: Discussion? Objection? Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Walk-On Item Number 3 Comm. Hall: Approve The State Grant Application For The Upgrading Of The E 9-1-1 Telephone Equipment. Comm. Janes: Seconded. Chairman Judah: Discussion, Objection? Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Item 4? Comm. Hall: I'll Make A Motion To Approve. Chairman Judah: Motion By Commissioner Hall. Seconded By Commissioner Janes. Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Item Number 5? Comm. Hall: This Is Our Rush Walk-On? I'll Make A Motion To Approve. Comm. Janes: Second. Chairman Judah: Discussion B, Objection? Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. We Go On To -- There Are No Carry-Over Items. Commissioner Hall? Comm. Hall: None. Chairman Judah: Commissioner Janes? Comm. Janes: I Want To Indicate That Last June I Had The Opportunity To Attend The Human Services Counsel Meeting. At That Meeting The Staff Discussed The Capital Not For Profit Criteria. That's The Not For Profit For Capital Bricks And Mortar Criteria. That Was Developed As A Result By The Human Services Council As A Result Of Our Board Request Which We Made And The Council Was Concerned, However, That The Demand -- And Quite Right, Of Course -- That The Demand For Direct Basic Services Is Increasing Dramatically In The County. They Felt That The Focus Should Be On Meeting The Basic Needs Rather Than On Capital. So The Human Services Committee Is Not Supportive Necessarily Of The Bricks And Mortar Idea And Felt It Should Be Renovated And Worked Primarily With Program. So What I Would Like To Do If We Do Set Aside For The Not For Profit Capital That The Final Revised Criteria Do Come Back To The Council -- Come Back To Us To Review And Approve As To Whether Or Not We Incorporate The Criteria This Year Or Here After. I Think That The Department Of Human Services Is Prepared To Move Forward With That



Criteria And They Are Going To Use Tools Like Gis To Help In The Planning Effort, Demographic Material And Whatnot. They Can Work With Various Organizations To Forward Some Criteria That Will Prioritize Community Needs. Did I Make Myself Clear? Comm. Hall: Yes. I Understand What You're Saying And I Support That. Chairman Judah: You Would Suggest This Board Would Have The Opportunity Which We Felt We Would All Along To Review The Criteria And The Human Resources Council Wants To Help. Comm. Janes: They Have A Rough Set Of Criteria To Come To Us For Approval. Chairman Judah: But It Would Be Spent On Operational? I Have Heart Burn With That. Comm. Hall: I Think We Can Talk About It At The Budget Hearing But That Needs To Be Added To The Discussion On Thursday. Comm. Bigelow: You Referred To That Yesterday. Chairman Judah: The Heart Burn Isn't That The Human Resources Council Shouldn't Be Involved. They Should Be. It's If Their Priority Isn't To Use It For Bricks And Mortar. I Have A Problem With That. Comm. Janes: I Understand. Chairman Judah: I Don't Want To Preclude Further Discussion On Capital Funding. Comm. Janes: We'll See If We Get The Criteria To Us. Chairman Judah: We'll Take It Under Advisement. Comm. Janes: Please Do. Comm. Hall: We Can Make A Decision On Thursday. I Have Strong Points Of View. Chairman Judah: Commissioner Mann? Comm. Mann: Let Me Ask You If That Document Had To Do With The Interlocal Between Us And Fort Myers Beach -- Chairman Judah: I'm Working On It.



Comm. Mann: Is The Department Going To Come Back With Thoughts On That? Chairman Judah: Gas Tax Allocation. Fort Myers Beach. Comm. Mann: We'll Be Back On That. I Have Appointments When The Time Comes. Chairman Judah: Commissioner Bigelow? Comm. Bigelow: I Have Appointments, Too. Chairman Judah: Commissioner Items? Comm. Bigelow: No. I Just Wanted To Say This. Chairman Judah: Sure. Comm. Bigelow: Are You Going To Under Your Commissioner Items Address The Red Sox Meeting? Chairman Judah: Yes. Let Me Proceed With That. It Was Not Intentional To Leave My Fellow Board Members In The Dark. This Came Rather Quickly And Fortuitous From The Standpoint That I, Like Many Of You, Place Faith And Confidence In Our County Manage Around Empowering The Staff Which I Did Feeling That We Had Wonderful Individuals With A Good Relationship With The Red Sox Organization, Bill Hammond, John Yarbrough And Felt The Staff Would Let Us Know If Things Came To A Point Where The Board Needed To Intercede With The Exploratory Effort By The Red Sox Looking At Sarasota, Disneyworld And Other Areas In The State. Comm. Bigelow: And Other States. Chairman Judah: Right. To Be Honest It Was When An Individual In The Private Sector Came To Me And Laid Out A Proposal And A Proposed Site They Felt The Red Sox Would Be Interested In Because They Recognize The Red Sox Are Looking For More Than A Stadium With Practice Fields In Close Proximity But Other Ways To Generate Revenue With A Mall With Restaurants And Stores And Maybe Operate A Sporting Venue With A Pool. There Is A Range Of Options. That's When I Decided, You Know, Since It Appears There Is Interest In The Private Sector Wherein Which We Could Rely On Funding From Private Entities With Regards To Ultimate Site Locations, Construction Of The Complex That It Was Important To Get A Hold Of The Chief Operating Officer, Mike Dee.



So I Requested That Mr. Dee And Myself Meet And We Did. What I Did With The End Of The Conversation Was To Present A List Of Prospective Sites And Contacts For Him To Touch Base With And Out Of Courtesy And Respect To Mr. Dee And The Private Property Owners I Felt It Wasn't Something Our Board Needed To Broker But Should Be Discussed Between The Red Sox And Private Entities. Eventually We Need An Rfp If It Would Appear They Would Not Go With The Sarasota County Offer And There Is An October 31 Deadline. I'm Hoping And Banking On The Fact That Lee County Has A Much More Preferable Site Or Sites With A Combination Of Proposals That The Red Sox Would Be Interested In. They Just Need To Hear From A Member Of The Board And As Chair I Took The Lead To Let Them Know We Value The Relationship. We Feel There Is A Number Of Options And Funding Scenarios Wherein Which We Could Reasonably Go Forward Without The Use Of Property Tax Money To Entice The Red Sox To Stay In Lee County. Comm. Hall: Mr. Chairman? Chairman Judah: Yes. Comm. Hall: I Didn't Know If You Were Finished. Chairman Judah: I Think Ultimately To Be Sure We Have A Level Playing Field Is That We Go Out With Requests For Proposals From The Property Owners And See What We Can Eventually Develop In Our Relationship With The Red Sox. Comm. Hall: Having 14 Hours On A Plane With The Red Sox In March I Put The Same Issue To Them. As We Read In The Paper, A Lot Of The Things They Discussed And I Got To Speak To The Owners And Give The Dialogue To The Owners That When You're Done With What You're Doing There, We Very Much Value Who And What You Are And We Are Prepared -- And There Are People In The Community Prepared To Work With You. But It Is Not Fair For The County And Sarasota County At This Point To Be In A Bidding War With You. I Told Them, I Appreciate Very Much The Fact That You Have Given Us A Heads-Up That You Are Doing A Business Review At Your Operation. Quite Honestly I Informed Them There Isn't Another County In The State That Understands The Business Of Baseball Like Lee County. Having Had The Opportunity To Open The City Of Palm Stadium Under One Administration And See The Stadium Disintegrate Under Two Additional Administrations It Was Imperative The Stadium Get Out Of Municipal Hands And Back Into Agency Hands That Does Understand The Business Of Baseball.



The Teams Bring A Tremendous Amount Of Economic Diversity To The Community And Give Us An Opportunity In The Tourism Market To Be A Global Entity Similar To What's Happened With The Art Of The Olympics We Are A Global Entity And It Helps To Boost Tourism. My Comment Back To You Dove Tailing Is As We Look At The Memo From Don Stillwell And We're Talking About The Moneys Being Used, You Know, We Have Had The Luxury In Knowing That We Have Things Coming Up That We Allow Reserves To Be Built Up. I Think There Needs To Be A Dialogue As This Money In This Particular Account That We Can Use Stop Getting Nickeled And Dimed. When We Give Out Grants For Capital For Organizations There Needs To Be A Very Specific Criteria Of How They Are Impacting The Tourism Dollars At The Time We Give Them Grant. Not Five, Ten Years From Now. What Is The Programming? Money Is Going Out The Door To Organizations That Sometime Down The Future, Two, Four, Five Years Down They Will Draw More Tourism But Right Now They Don't Have All The Phases Done. We Should Be The Last Phase That Kicks Them Into The Tourism Market, Not The Middle Phase That's Five Years Out. Wii Clipping Away At Ability To Build Up The Fund To Be A Partner With The Private Sector. I Don't Think There Is Anyone On The Board To Support Ad Velorum Dollars Being Used For This Entity. I Put It Up At A Red Flag That It's Important That We Communicate With The Board How The Money Is Being Used And How It Shouldn't Be Used. As You Saw In This Memo If We Have A Change Of Direction Over The Next Year Some Of The Programs That This One Will No Longer Be Available And We Have To Have This Conversation With Them. I Think We Should Start Having That Conversation Earlier. Chairman Judah: We Will Have It Earlier. We'll Need To Step Up As A Board To Make The Commitment. So If The Red Sox Decided They No Longer Want To Continue Negotiations They Need To Look To Us For A Commitment. With That Comes Funding. I Like That Don And Dinah And Budget And Administrative Staff Looked At The Binding



Capacity We Have With The Tourist Tax. I Appreciate The Substantial Numbers To Be Sure We Can Impress On The Red Sox We Have The Wherewithal To Keep Them Here. Comm. Hall: I Want To Talk About What's Going To Happen With The Programs Used Under This Because It's Obvious That In Order For Us To Be A Player The Programs Have To Shift Somewhere Else Or Be Eliminated. I Think We Should Have Preliminary Discussions So When Things Start Moving Because As Always They Move Fast, I Don't Want Them To Feel We Have A Preconceived Notion. I Want Them To Be Part Of The Solution As Early As We Can With Them And Talk About This Because We're Giving Money Out Of This Account Regularly. They're Taking Requests Mid Year Not In The Budget Process And Approving Things. Eventually They Will Come Back To This Board For Approval. I Want Us To Be On The Same Wavelength And Not Deny Their Approvals Because We Have More Information Than They Have. Chairman Judah: But We Do Have Tremendous Binding Information. I Appreciate Your Comments, Commissioner Hall. Don, I Just Want To Convey To The Board Because I Know Each Board Member Certainly Has The Discretion To Be Requesting Information As Well As They Should To Keep In The Loop. I Appreciate Commissioner Bigelow Your Interest And Certainly Other Board Members Finding An Opportunity To Brief The Board. What I Would Ask Is As Chair Allow Me To Continue To Be The Point On The Board. I'm Respectful In That Administration Has Coordinated With John Yarbrough Who Retired But Has So Much History And The Developed Relationship He Has With The Red Sox, It Is Important He Remain As The Administrative Staff Point Person. Don, I Will Let You Examine How You Plan To Allow John To Continue In That Role So We Don't Lose A Step With His Involvement. Thank You, Mr. Chairman. You're Correct. That's What We Have Been Doing. John Has Been The Point Person Since The Red Sox Started Talking About The Possibility Of



Doing Something Else. We Have Talked To Him About A Possible Relationship When He's No Longer With The County Which, As You Know, He Left A Week Ago Yesterday. He Left County Employment. He's Done A Couple Things For Us In The Interim, Pro Bono. He's Not Looking For Money From The County. I Think We Have To Watch This And Monitor As It Evolves And See What Your Involvement Is With The Red Sox, How We Can Use Him And Develop The Relationship. We'll Come Back To The Board. This Is A Sensitive Thing. We Made The Commitment On The Early Out Program For The Board That We Wouldn't Bring People Back Unless There Is An Extraordinary Situation. This Is Extraordinary Enough That We Get In The Position And He's A Person Who Should Come Back Who Has A Critical Role In The Success Of Our Relationship With The Red Sock. We'd Like To See That Evolve. If It Comes Back The County Manager Can Make The Decision But I Assure You That We'll Be Talking To You About That. We Won't Just Make The Decision And Tell You To Live With It. We'll Talk With You Individually And Collectively If You Like. Chairman Judah: Don, As Things Develop -- And They Will Develop Quickly -- Make Sure That John Yarbrough Since I Can't Properly Brief Other Board Members. I Would Encourage You To Contact Mr. Yarbrough. He Bleeds Lee County And Would Be Happy To Talk To Any Of You Any Time Individually Or Collectively. The Other Thing, Mr. Chairman, You Gave Me The Opportunity To Speak. Commissioner Hall's Concern About Meeting With The Tourist Development Council Is An Excellent One. Sue Dave Port Is Scheduling A Meeting Between The Board And The Development Council So We Can Get The Concerns That Commissioner Hall Voiced.



Of I Think Those Are Good Concerns. Chairman Judah: Very Good. Comm. Hall: I Want To Make A Motion That As Chair You Take The Lead In Communication With Lead And With The Caveat That Staff Will Continue To Keep Us Informed Because I Assume You Will Be Meeting With Staff And That As Things Progress We'll Be Briefed And When It's Proper To Have Things Come Forward For The Public. I Would Make It As A Formal Motion. Comm. Janes: Second. Chairman Judah: Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Comm. Bigelow: Under Discussion If I Could, I'm Not Getting Warm And Fuzzy About This For Some Reason. I'm Wondering -- You Talked To Rick Dee Recently. Chairman Judah: Mike, Yes. Comm. Bigelow: Oh, I'm Sorry. Sarasota Has Something To Offer That We Can't And That's To Be The Only Game In Town. We Have A Long Standing And Solid Relationship With The Twins. If Sarasota Has That To Offer And That's What The Red Sox Want Then That's Where They're Going. Do You Though After Your Meeting With Mr. Dee Have The Clear Impression That He's Interested In What We'll Counter Offer? Chairman Judah: It's A Good Question And The Same Question I Posed To Mr. Dee When We Sat Down The Other Day Wanting To Know How Deep This Exploratory Effort On The Red Sox's Part Is With Sarasota. He Said The Train's At The Station, Rolling Down The Track, But Now That He Realizes Lee County Has Other Options That Are Perhaps Preferable To What Sarasota County Is Offering He Said It's Not A Done Deal. This May Run Deeper Than We Know. We May Well Lose The Red Sox To Sarasota. But I See Him As A Man Of Integrity And Up Front And Honest. He's Indicated We Have Every Opportunity To Continue Dialoguing, Provide The Proposals And That It's Not A Done Deal. Comm. Bigelow: I Don't Want Us To Spin Our Wheels When The Decision Has Been Made And They're Just Trying To Iron Out The Final Agreement With Sarasota.



I Asked Bill Hammond If Jy Was Going To Help And The Explanation I Got At That Time Was Two Things. The Red Sox Had Offered Jy A Job And He Chose Not To Take It. He Wants To Stay Local And That Wasn't Going To Be Involved. Now The County Manager Says Jy Is Going To Be Involved Pro Bono. Comm. Hall: For Now. Comm. Bigelow: And I Should Reach Out To Him. The Little Bit Of Effort That -- Or Involvement I Have Had, And I Don't Want To Interfere With Your Point On This Is Kind Of Staff's Been Not Wanting To Put Forward A Whole Bunch. I Guess If I'm Going To Feel Comfortable In The Road We're On, I Think We Need To Be More In The Loop Individually Because I'm Not Yet Getting There. Chairman Judah: Commissioner Bigelow Now That We Know Jy Will Be The Point Person I Want All Of Us Kept In The Loop. Comm. Hall: We Say The Only Game In Town And I Want To Clarify Something. Mike Dee Said To Me The Red Sox Largest Concern Is The Exodus Of Teams Leaving The State Of Florida And More Importantly The Number Of Teams On The West Coast. They Would Prefer Five Teams In Lee County Playing Each Other. They Don't Want To Play The Same Team Over And Over. They Don't Mind How Many Teams Are In Lee County. They Are Not Looking To Be The Only Game In Town. They Want A Roster To Afford The Fans To See Different Teams Play. So As Many Teams As We Can Squeeze In Between Sarasota And Collier County, They Would Love. Their Teammates Don't Want To Travel Two And A Half, Three Hours One Way On A Bus To Play. They Would Rather Be In The Hour Window. If They Could Not Even Have To Get On A Bus For An Hour And Be 15 Minutes They Would Love It More.



Travel Time Is A Concern. That Was One Of The Reasons Having The Practice Field So Far Away Which In Some People's Mind Isn't Far, But It Is A Bus Trip To Get Oh The Practice Fields Whereas At The Twins Stadium Everything Is In The Same Complex. It's Not An Issue Of Being The Only Game In Town. That Was Not Their Issue With Lee County Versus Sarasota That There Is Another Team Or Possible Additional Teams That They Would Be In Lee County With. Comm. Bigelow: O.K. Comm. Hall: That's His Words Back To Me. That's Been Several Months Ago. I Asked Him That Specific Question Also Because I Just Had All This Down Time With Him. Secondly, I Want To Clarify. John Yarbrough At This Point Is Helping Out Pro Bono, But If We Find We Are Going To Begin A Dialogue With The Red Sox In Earnest, You Will Come Back To The Board To Bring Him On As A Consultant Which Would Be A Paid Position. I Want To Be Clear So There Is No Misunderstanding Where Someone Says, I Thought He Was Working For Pro Bono. At This Point We Are In The Preliminary Time And He's Helping Out. I Wanted To Be Sure I Understood It. It's Generous Of Him To Do It Pro Bono But I Didn't Think That's What I Heard You Say. Comm. Bigelow: Let Me Restate The Leading Point Which Was It's Clear The Red Sox Want To Be Somewhere Else -- I Think. Why Else Would They Be Talking To Sarasota? They May Want To Be Somewhere Else In Lee County, But They Want To Be Somewhere Else. I'm Trying To Figure Out How Far Away From The Current Site Do They Want To Be? And Is That Another County, Another Jurisdiction? Another Place. You're Saying No. Chairman Judah: Let Me Just Say -- Comm. Bigelow: All Indications Indicate Otherwise. So The Leading Point Is They Want To Be Somewhere Else.



Why? That's Privileged Information For Them, It Seems Like. Chairman Judah: If I Could, There Is Actually A List Of Alternative Locations In Lee County Where They Want To Be Considering Somewhere Else. It's Not Only The Distance Between The Practice Fields And The Stadium And The Fact That They Can't Coordinate Player Development And Program Like The Twins Can With Everything In One Place. It's Because Of The Red Sox Nation, The Fan Base They Need To Accommodate The Plethora Of Fans That Come Out Just To See Them Practice. The Practice Fields Don't Accomplish That. It's Totally In A Different Stratosphere When Dealing With The Red Sox. Comm. Janes: Did They Suggest Any Of The Sites? Chairman Judah: They Are Still Exploring. Comm. Bigelow: What They Haven't Done Is Come To Us Saying, What Else Do You Offer? You Know, That Can Say A Lot. At What Point Do We Then Try To Find Some Other Team To Be Housed At The -- Chairman Judah: There Is No Guarantee With The Red Sox But The Staff Continues To Work With The Board To Encourage The Red Sox To Stay Here. Comm. Hall: Why Don't We Ask Don To Schedule At Any Commissioner's Request To Go Ahead And Get With John And Maybe Bill And Jeff And Ask To See If A Commissioner Wants To Be Brought Up To Speed. That Way I Think A Lot Of The Questions And Issues You're Asking Today Could Be Better Accommodated By The People Who Have Been Talking To Them On A Staff Level. I Think Some Of These Could Be Resolved. Some Won't Be Able To, But I Think You Will Get A More Productive Dialogue From That Level Than We Are Now. Chairman Judah: O.K. Comm. Bigelow: Mr. Chairman, I Appreciate You Taking The Lead And Being Point On This. But We Have To Look Out For Ours. Chairman Judah: Absolutely. Comm. Bigelow: Who Are We Going To Try To Seek And Who's Available To Consider City Of Palms Park? You Know, If We're Working Out Through A Protracted Process Some



Agreement With The Red Sox And That's Lost Time Because There Is Another Scenario Out There With Another Team That Could Come In, We Might Need To Put Them In The Mix. I Would Hate To Think -- Comm. Hall: And The Red Sox Suggested That. Comm. Bigelow: They Suggested We Talk To Other Teams To -- Comm. Hall: Yeah. Comm. Bigelow: O.K. I'd Like To Know More About The Status Of Other Teams -- Comm. Mann: I Didn't Get That Memo. Comm. Hall: Mr. Chairman? I Think We Need To Recognize That The State Of Florida Put Out Dollars For Counties To Hold Onto Their Teams. When I Was Chair, We Fought To Try And Receive -- There Were Five Counties Given The Dollars. We Were Number Six. When Sarasota Didn't Look Like They Were Going To Be Able To Retain The Reds We Asked To Be Plugged Into Receive The Money As Part Of The State's Effort To Retain Teams In The State Of Florida. As You Know, Sarasota Asked The State -- And I Think -- Sit $15 Million Or $7? Chairman Judah: $15 Million. Comm. Hall: To Lure The Sox Away From Lee County. I Started That Effort In Making Sure That The Legislation -- That That Would Not Happen. So Are You Going To Follow Up On That Because That Needs To Be Addressed Right Away. Chairman Judah: We Have Most Assuredly Followed Up And We Are Standing In A Good Position To Make Sure That Money Will Be For Lee County. Comm. Hall: I Didn't Want To Step On Your Toes Again Because I Started That Process And I Didn't Want To Make Calls. I Wanted To Make Sure -- I Hadn't Called Jeff And I Wanted To Make Sure That The State Is Not Going To Allow That To Occur. That Money Cannot Be Used To Lure Teams Within The State Of Florida To Other Counties. That's The Position. Comm. Hall: And That Money Was To Retain Teams Not Recruit New Ones. For Us To Retain The Sox We Should Be Able To Get The Sox Since Sarasota Wasn't Able



To Retain The Reds. That Was The Legislation. We Need To Make Every Effort To Be Put In A Position To Be Able To Receive Those Additional Funds For The State. Chairman Judah: Correct. By The Way, Commissioner Bigelow, It's The Red Sox That Commissioner Hall Indicated In Her Separate Conversation And I Was Informed That Depending On When And If It Comes Back -- And Hopefully It Will -- And The Board Goes Forward And Makes A Commitment To Provide An Alternative Location Based On Good Business Decisions On Our Part The Red Sox Are Amenable To Co-Locating At The City Of Palms Park In The Interim With A Team. There Is A Possibility Of A Third Team Here In Lee County In Addition To The Red Sox And Twins. Comm. Bigelow: So That's Definitely Part Of What We Need To Be Setting Forth. Chairman Judah: It's In The Mix. Comm. Bigelow: That $15 Million Then Likewise Can't Be Used By Us To Woo A Team From The East Coast. Comm. Hall: Right. Chairman Judah: Keep The Red Sox Here. Comm. Bigelow: I'd Like To Know More About How We'll Attract A Team From Another State. Comm. Hall: We Already Have A Stadium. Comm. Mann: Now That Memo I Got. Chairman Judah: O.K. Comm. Bigelow: Sounds Like There Are Two Halves Of This. I Appreciate The Conversation. A Lot Has Been Revealed To My Benefit. Thank You. Comm. Mann: Mr. Chairman? Chairman Judah: Yes? Comm. Mann: It Almost Doesn't Need Saying But I Will.



It's Clear That There Is Unanimity On The Board That We'll Do What's Necessary To Keep The Sox Here. We Want Them. We Like Them. It's Great For Us. Comm. Hall: Let's Send A Resolution. Comm. Mann: Another Useless Letter. We're Frustrated That We Haven't Been Part Of The Dialogue, But Some Of Us Are Going To Leave Here In A Few Minutes And Go Out To The City Of Palms Park With The Rotary Club Who's Partnered With The Sox And Doing Their Parking And Making A Bunch Of Money And That Goes To The Children's Hospital And Other Things. It's Been A Great Partnership Here. I Think The Public Perhaps Is Waiting To See What The County Is Going To Do. This Is The First Opportunity We Talked About. It's Good To Get It On The Record That There Are Five Commissioners That Aren't Sleeping At The Switch Up Here And That We Want To Do Everything We Can Reasonably Do To Keep The Sox Here. We Love You, Sox. Don't Leave Us. Chairman Judah: That's A Good Wrap-Up. Thank You, Commissioner Mann. The Other Thing -- Just A Couple Quick Points. There Was An Article In Today's Paper About How Lee County Taxpayers Will Be On The Hook For $10,000 A Day, I Guess, Is The Find With Regard To The Plume Of Sediment From The Estero Parkway. I Want It Clear That There Is A Contractor Under Contract With The County Who Is Accountable For Paying That Fine If That Fine Is Assessed, Not The Lee County Taxpayers. So Having Said That, I Know There Still Has To Be An Assessment In Terms Of Who's Actually Responsible. Is It The Contractor For Lee County Constructing The Estero Parkway Overpass, F Dot With



I-Rocks, The Private Department Clearing Land Contributing To The Plume? Regardless, We're Going To Find Out Who's Accountable And They Will Be Fined But Not Paid By The Lee County Taxpayers. That's Correct. Chairman Judah: Thank You. One Last Point. I Think We Need To Send A Letter To The South Florida Water Management District Because They, Along With Governor Crist, Have Made A Huge Commitment With The Acquisition Of The 187,000 Acres. Hopefully They Will Purchase The Assets In The Company And Acreage Sooner Than Later. But It's Clear That There Is A Lot Of Effort By Organizations And Communities In Glades And Hendry County, The Areas Around The Lake, That Are Starting To Chip Away At Trying To See If There Is A Possibility Of Using Some Of The Land For Continued Agriculture Production. And Above Everything Else It's My Understanding The District Understands The Importance Of Water Storage Because That's Created The Problem With The Excessive Release Of Water Because Of The Lack Of Storage Of Run-Off From Lake Okeechobee. It's My Understanding The District Is Recognizing They Need At Least One Million Acre Feet Of Storage And One Million Acre Feet Of Storm Water Treatment Area To Clean The Water. I Submit We Need 1.5 Million Acre Feet Of Storage And Every Acre Of The 187,000 Acres Of U.S. Sugar Once The Deal Is Worked Out But There Is An Understanding That Because Of The Location Of The Lands It Would Be In Our Interest And The District's Best Interest And The Best Interest Of Restoration To Consider A Land Exchange In Order To Have A Connective Southern Flow Way That We Have Been Trying To Achieve. I Really Think This Board Needs To Send A Let Tor The District And To The Governor That We Support The Acquisition Of U.S. Sugar, The 187,000 Acres And To Keep In Mind The Need To Have Appropriate Storage No Less Than 1.5 Million Acre Feet Or One Million Acre Feet, Whatever The Board Feels Comfortable With, And Another Million Acre Feet Of Treatment. Having Said That, We Don't Get Down In The Details Of What Parcels Can Be Exchanged Or Protected. Just That Their Eye Is On The Ball In Terms Of Storage And Treatment. They Need To Hear From Us. Comm. Mann: Write Them A Letter, Mr. Chairman.



I So Move. Chairman Judah: Motion By Commissioner Mann. Second? Comm. Janes: Second. Chairman Judah: Discussion, Objection? Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Commissioner Mann, Did You Have Any Items? Comm. Mann: No. Chairman Judah: Committee Appointments, Commissioner Hall? Comm. Hall: I Have A Reappointment Of Eva Rampage To The P Ark Mona Park. Reappointment Of Alex A La Pear And A New Appointment Of Teresa La Sage To Land Development Deed Advisory. Comm. Janes: Second. Chairman Judah: Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Commissioner Janes? Comm. Janes: I Have A Couple. I've Got Mike Mull Lynns To The Coastal Advisory Committee Representing One In Place Of Alison Haggerup And I Have Dave Jenison Has An Alternate To Captiva District One The Coastal Advisory Committee. Chairman Judah: Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Commissioner Mann? Comm. Mann: Two Reappointments To The Bicycle Pedestrian Advisory Committee. Willard Baker And Fred Johnson. Comm. Hall: Second. Chairman Judah: Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Comm. Mann: Reappointment Of Derwood Hussy To The Construction Board Of Adjustments. Chairman Judah: Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Comm. Mann: Reappointment Of Gilbert Debt To The Conservation Land By Sayings Stewardship. Chairman Judah: Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Comm. Mann: I Have A New Appointment To The Same Committee. Kristy Knight. Comm. Hall: Second. Chairman Judah: Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Commissioner Bigelow? Comm. Bigelow: I Have To Rescind David Stallings From The Well Construction Advisory Board. I Think You Appointed Him, Commissioner Janes.



Chairman Judah: O.K. Comm. Hall: Second. Chairman Judah: Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. I Have Kerry Hall To Conservation Lands -- 2020 Committee. Jeff Lewis To Construction Licencing. Damon Romanello To Smart Ground Richard Ferraro. Comm. Hall: Second. Chairman Judah: Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. County Manager? Mr. Chairman And Board, Our October 20 Planning Meeting, You Have Some Conflicts There -- Zoning Meeting, I'm Sorry. You Have Conflicts. We'd Like To Move Your October 20th Meeting To November 3. Comm. Hall: So Moved. Chairman Judah: Motion By Commissioner Hall. Second By -- Comm. Mann: Sure. Chairman Judah: Commissioner Mann. Hearing No Objections, The Motion Passes. Anything Else? No? County Attorney? Nothing. Chairman Judah: We Are Adjourned -- Recessed Until 5:00 This Evening. Thank You. 5:00 Pm Public Hearing

Chairman Judah: Good Evening, Everyone.

We'll Start Off With The Homestead Land Paving.

That Must Be.

Scott Cooper.

Assistant County Attorney.



We Are Here To Adopt The Hemahospitalized Lane Rode Raving Municipal Unit And Chose Out

Of This Project.

Assets I Find Legally Sufficient As To Form And Content And Enter It At This Time.

Staff And Myself Are Available To Entertain Any Questions You May Have.

Chairman Judah: Did You Want To Put Something On The Record?

Libby Walker, Public Resources.

We're Bringing This Back To You After The June M.&.P. To Bring Forward The Fees We Would

Charge The Property Owners.

We Haven't Gotten Any Call Or Correspondents From Citizens On This.

Chairman Judah: I Have Quite A Few Cards Now.

We'll Go Head Then On The Homestead Lane Rode Waiving Msbu.

Lenny, Good Evening, Sir.

My Name Is Lenny Barshinger.

We Have Addressed This Problem Of The Road Twice Now, The Second Time That The Project

Came Up Was Exorbitant As Far As The Bid Amount.

I'm Just Asking If The Commission Can Go Ahead And Resolve The Amount Of Money For The

Individuals On That Road To Go Ahead And Pay For The Surveys.

Because Of The Project Is Resolved, As I Understand, Or Will Be Resolved.

Either That Or Have It Rebid.

To See If We Can Get A Reduced Amount From What The Original Bid Was.

Chairman Judah: Thank You, Sir.

You're Welcome.

Chairman Judah: There Was A Lady That Dropped Off A Card There.

Thank You, Scott.

Thank You.



I Believe Your Wife, Sue, Is Here?

She's Not Here Yet.

She Should Be Here.

Chairman Judah: She's Welcome To Speak When She Gets Here.

Steve Cook?

Is This On The Homestead?

No.

Chairman Judah: Forgive Me.

Robert Clemens.

I'm Sheer.

Chairman Judah: Good Evening Southbound --, Sir.

I'm Robert Clemens.

I've Been On Homestead Lane Since 1990.

I Moved In There In June Of 1990.

I Just Field Like I Shouldn't Have To Pay For The Road Project.

I Did Not Sign The Petition To Start The Road Project And I Have Received A Bill On It What

The Engineers Would Like For The County Wants Us To Pay.

I Know You Folks Has Already Divided It Up.

This Time You Divided It Equal.

I'm Proud Of You On Doing That.

But I Don't Feel I Should Not Have To Pay The Money, The Fee.

I Think The People That Put In For The Project Should Pay The Fee.

Because I Didn't Agree To Pay Anything.

It Was Not My Agreement With Anybody For The Project Or Agreement With Anybody To Pay

The Engineers To Come In And Give A Price On This Msbu Road Project.




Is Mike Sullivan Here?


You Are Welcome To Step Forward And Elaborate If You Windowing.

Is Ms. Wiseman Here On The Msbu.

Thank You, Ma'am.

Are You Picking Up On This?

Ok.

Linda Wanaberg.

Good Evening.

My Name Is Linda Wanaberg.

I'm Speaking For My Mother, Edna Spencer.

My Question Is, Most Of The Time In Order To Owe Something You Have To Do Something To

Initiate The Work.

If It's A Credit Card, You Buy Something, You Got It.

Whatever.

You Have To Do Something To Get Charged For Something.

We Didn't Do Anything.

We Voted Against This From Day One.

There Is A Lot Of People That Voted Against It From Day One.

We Did Nothing To Initiate Any Monies Being Spent Whatsoever.

That's All I Got To Say.

Chairman Judah: Thank You, Ma'am.

I Don't Have Any Other Pardons.

Anyone Else That Would Like To Speak On This Issue Before Us On Homestead Road?



Ok.

Let's Go Back To The Board Then.

Libby, If You Don't Mind Stepping Forward Here, Anticipating Any Questions The Board Might

Have Or From Legal Council.

Commissioner Hall?

Commissioner Hall: It's My Understanding When We Met The Project Was About $880,000

And Had 46 Parcels And We Did Receive A 51% For Recognizing There Were Several People

That Did Not Support It But The Required Percentage At That Time Did Support It.

Because Of The Cost Increase In The Outcry, We Decided To Move It Forward To Dissolve It

That Any Costs Incurred To That Point Would Be Borne By The County And The Residents.

The Costs To That Point Were $883,000 And $42,000 The County Is Going To Pay And The

Balance Is Divided Among The 46 Parcels Is That Correct?

That's Correct, Commissioner.

Commissioner Hall: Thank You, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Judah: It's Unfortunate But The Way The Process Works We Allow Public Input But

We Can't Go Back After We Conclude Public Input.

There Was A Gentleman That Had His Hand Up With Regard To The Numbers You Stated.

Commissioner Hall: I'm Going Off The Blue Sheet.

That Is Correct.

I'll Clarify The Original 51% We Received In Support Was 51% Of The Homesteaded Property

Owners Which At That Time Was Partly Of Our Administrative Code.

We Did Receive The Support Per Our Administrative Code.

A Month Or Two Ago We Changed That.

Chairman Judah: I Can't Take Your Comment At This Time.

I Can't, Because I Would Have To Reopen It For Everything.



We Have Concluded Public Input.

That's Not True.

Chairman Judah: Thank You.

Commissioner Mann?

Commissioner Mann: Did You Tell Me If A Property Owner Pays It All At One Time What It's

Going To Be And What Is The User-Friendly Way?

So Much A Year, A Week Or Whatever?

Commissioner, We Recommended We Would Charge The Property Owners Over A Period Of

Three Years In Consideration Of The Maximum Being $1735.

We Charge Them 1/3 Each Year.

We Did Not Have Any Interest In This.

Commissioner Mann: The Total Amount Would Be Divided Over Three Tax Years, One

Payment Each Year?

One Payment Each Year.

The Maximum Anybody Would Pay Would Be Less Than $600 And Some Of The Assessments

Are $250 Dollars And That Would Be Split Over Three Years, As Well.

Commissioner Mann: The Larger The Property, The Larger The Payment?

There Are Different Size Properties Out There.

In The Wintertime When This Came Up About This And We Sent A Letter Out To The Property

Owners Specifying They Would Be Assessed On The Same Methodology We Used When We

Created It.

That Was A Front Foot Acreage Split.

In The Time After That When We Were Collecting Petitions To Dissolve It We Discussed It

With The County Attorney's Office And Determined Because There Was Not A Final Project

That We Could Not Use That Methodology.



So We Went Back And Brought It Back To The Commissioners In The June M.M.P. That We

Would Assess The Property Owners The Lesser Amount Of The Average If We Had Split It Up

Over A Course Of All Of The Property Owners Equally Or The Amount We Sent Out In The

Property Owner's Letter Back Last February.

So We Were Charging All The Property Owners The Lesser Amount Of The Methodology We

Originally Had Versus The Average.

Commissioner Mann: Are You Saying A Typical Property Owner Would Pay A Little Under $200

Each Year For Three Years?

The Most A Property Owner Would Pay Would Be A Little Bit Less Than 1600.

Commissioner Hall: The Total Number Is 1735 For The Maximum.

Over Three Years It's $569 For Each Year.

That's Correct.

We Have 29 Properties Owners Paying Significantly Less.

That Attestment We Are Not Looking At Charging Any Interest To Those Property Owners, It's

Strictly The Money That Went Out.

Chairman Judah: To Ease The Financial Burden On Residents The County Has Proposed To

Contribute Well Over 1/3.

35%.

Chairman Judah: How Did You Arrive At That Number?

Basically We Did Some Reductions In The Fees We Were Going To Charge And Backed Into It

Saying If They Paid The Average Or The Maximum, This Was The Difference We Would Have

To Pick Up.

Chairman Judah: Ok.

Any Other Questions?



Commissioner Bigelow?

Commissioner Bigelow: I Wasn't Here In August Of 2005 When The Board Adopted The

Resolution To Do This.

What Was The Genesis Of It.

Was It The Large Property Owners Tried To Come Forward To Push This?

Basically It Was The Homesteaded Property Owners Out There.

We Had 51%, Which I Believe Was Only 11 Property Owners.

Commissioner Bigelow: Who Planted The Seed?

The Property Owners.

The Homesteaded Property Owners.

One Of The Homesteaded Property Owners Came To See Us.

It Was The Second Time They Came To See Us Probably Around 2,000.

But One Of The Property Owners Came To See Us, A Homesteaded Property Owner.

She Initiated This, Went Out With The Petitions, Went Around, Came Back To Us With The

51% Of The Homesteaded Property Owners That Happen Wanted To Support This.

Commissioner Bigelow: Ok.

Which Is Not Unusual.

I Mean, That's Standard Operating Procedure.

The Property Owners Always Come To Us.

We Don't Go Out.

Commissioner Bigelow: A Small Number And Then They Go Out.

Ok.

Chairman Judah: Commissioner Mann, You Brought This Up Yesterday In The Workshop,

Right?

Commissioner Mann: It's A Different Homestead Road.



Commissioner Hall: The Homestead Road In Lehigh.

Commissioner Bigelow: Oh.

Ok.

Commissioner Mann: They'd Be Paying $1 Million A Shot For That.

Chairman Judah: Back To The Board Then For Action.

Deliberation One Way Or The Other.

Commissioner Hall: I'll Move We Approve The Did I Solving Of The Homestead Lane Road

Paving As Presented By Staff

Chairman Judah: A Second?

Commissioner Mann: I'll Second.

I Don't Like It Either But We Have Been Here Over And Over And Looked For Ways To Deal

With This Easier.

I Wasn't Here When We Got Into It But I Have To Put It To Sleep.

It's Like When Your Favorite Dog, You Don't Like To Do It.

This One Hurts And I Feel Badly About It But We Don't Have Any Other Alternative And We

Have Done Something In Putting This One To Sleep That We Don't Normally Do And That's

Picking Up 1/3 Of The Cost To Take Some Of The Sting Out Of It.

I Wish We Had Another Alternative But I Don't See It.

I Reluctantly Support This Motion.

Chairman Judah: Any Furthers Discussion?

Any Objection?

Commissioner Mann: I Think I Reluctantly Will Vote Against It.

Chairman Judah: The Motion Passes 4-1.

Out Of Respect To The Man Who Couldn't Comment After The Conclusion Of Public Comment.

Could I Ask You To Step Back And Get The Gentleman's Concern Or Question And Provide A



Response In Writing.

There Is Evidently A Point Of Interpretation In Terms Of The Veracity Of The Facts.

I Want To Make Sure That's Covered.

Thank You.

Chairman Judah: Mcgregor Aisles Dredging Msbu.

Agenda Item Number Two Is To Amend 06-09-26 To Include Three Digsal Parcels And An

Increased Cost Estimated Of The Project.

Secondly Staff Is Requesting Ordinance 616 Be Amended To Include Threes Three Digsal

Properties Into The Unit.

I've Examined The Notification Of Intent Published On September 2, 2008.

As You Have, I Approve As To Content And Form And Hereby Enter It Into The Record At This

Time.

Staff And I Are Available For Questions.

Commissioner Hall: Mr. Chairman?

Chairman Judah: Commissioner Hall.

Commissioner Hall: Three Property Owners Wanted To Come In And There Was A Cost Of

$9100 And Would Have Caused All The Assessments To Be More.

Those Three Property Owners Are Willing To Pay That Up Front And Be Part Of The Overall

Assessment?

Yes, Ma'am.

Commissioner Hall: Threes Three Property Owners Are Ignore Picking Up The Difference.

That Is Right?

Chairman Judah: Anyone Wish To Comment On The Mcgregor Aisles Msbu To Include The

Properties?



Seeing Known, Back To The Board.

Discussion?

Objection?

Hearing None, Motion Passes.

Ok.

Move On To The Legal Ordinance, I Believe The Request Is To Continue To Another Grate.

Yes, Sir.

I Have The Affidavit Of Publication Reviewed For Legal Decision And Find It Legally Sufficient

To Continue And Enter It Into The Record Now.

This Is A Request To Continue This To October 28.

Chairman Judah: Ok.

Commissioner Hall: So Moved.

Chairman Judah: Motion By Commissioner Hall To Do That.

A Second?

I'll Second It For Discussion.

Open For Public Comment If They Wish To Be Heard On October 28 On The Bald Eagle

Ordinance.

Commissioner Mann: We're Waiting For Information If We Can Do This?

We Just Received Comments A Week Ago From F. W.C.

We're Still Reviewing That.

We Are Going To Meet With The Ag Interests.

Chairman Judah: All The Things We Were Trying To Work Out, It's Not Clear So We Need

Another Month.

Chairman Judah: Any Further Objection.

No Objection, Motion Passes.



Now To The Road Impact Fee Update.

Hello, Robert.

Samsonite County Attorney.

The Adoption Of An Ordinance Of The Land Development Did Adopt A 2008 Road Fee Update.

I Have Reviewed The Update And It Is Sufficient As To Form And Content And I Am Entering

It Into The Record.

Chairman Judah: Give Us A Few Highlights, Mary.

Good Evening, Commissioners, Mary Gibbs.

You Asked Us To Do An Update Of The Road Impact C And Expedite It.

There Was An Expectation Because Of The General Economy The Study Would Come Back

And Show A Decrease In The Fees.

But We Received The Studies Last Month And Shows An Increase Of 7% In Most Of The

Categories.

Because It Was Based On The C.I.P. Cost And Even Though We Lowered It For Recent Bids

That Came In, We Took A Reduction Of 18% Based On Bids We Had Gotten In, It Was Not

Enough To Lower The Fees.

They Show 7% Increase.

We Do Have D.O.T. Here If You Want More Detail On That Later.

There Were Two Categories Are That Decreasing.

Those Are The Retail Shopping Center Category And The Hotel-Motel Office Rates.

The Reason Those Are Decreasing, They Are Based On Changes In The Source Information

We Used Instituted Traffic Engineers Trip Manual.

There Were Technical Changes There Resulting In Those Fees Declining?

Chairman Judah: By What Percentage?

About 18% And 26%, I Think.



Chairman Judah: Per Cent?

Yes.

We Can Go Into More Detail On That If You Want Us To.

There Was One Other Change, Two Other Things Different From What You Have Seen In The

Past.

One Is We Are Recommending That The Boca Grande District Be Combined With The North

District Because Boca Is Small And D.O.T. Is Suggesting We Merge Those Two Districts

Together.

The Other Thing Is We Do Have A New Fee, A Potential Mine Fee If You Are Interested.

The Reason We Asked The Consultant To Look At That Is Because We Went Through The Wrgr

Studies And Presentations And You Asked Us To Look At Potential Options For Fees.

One Of The Options We Looked At Was A Mine Impact Fee And The Other Was An Operation

Fee Which Was Separate.

We Put The Mine Impact Fee In Here.

While We Were Going Through The Committee Review We Got Input That We Shouldn't Have

Grossed It On Acreage But It Would Be More Reasonable On Cubic Yards.

We Had The Engineer We Kale Late That And That Was Attached To The Memo I Sent To You

All Yesterday Afternoon.

Which I Hope You Have.

Chairman Judah: Which I Don't But That's Ok.

Well, I Have Extras.

I'm Sorry We Were Supposed To Put A Big Note On It.

Chairman Judah: Comparing The Gross Acreage Versus The -- Thank You.

Commissioner Bigelow: I Got It.

This Gives You The First Page Of The Memo Gives You A General Overview Of What You Need



To Make Decisions On And Then I Attached The Memo From Duncan Associates Which Goes

Into The Technical Explanation If You Change From Gross Achetories Cubic Yards What The

Calculation Is.

When You Do It By Cubic Yards It Turned Out To Be Four Cents Per Cubic Yard.

The Committee Meetings Were Just Recent, In The Last Week Or Two.

Some Of The Meetings Were Yesterday.

That's The Reason We Didn't Get This Done Earlier.

Chairman Judah: What Is The Difference What The Gross Acreage Versus The Cubic Yards?

It Depends, If You Did A Calculation For -- It Depends Really On How Deep The Mine Is Going

To Mine.

How Many Wetlands Are On The Site.

You Can't Really Equate It.

You Can't Say Oh, It's Lower In Every Case Or It Would Be Higher In Every Case.

I Think In Some Cases It's Lower And Some Cases It Would Tend To Be The Same, Perhaps A

Little Bit Higher.

Commissioner Bigelow: What Is Staff Recommendation?

We Feel Comfortable With The Cubic Yards.

The Industry Is Comfortable With That.

If You Have A Large Site With A Lot Of Wetlands And You Have To Preserve The Wetlands You

Are Not Going To Mine Them.

If You Do It By Gross Acreage You Would Be Charging For The Wetlands.

We Want To Protect The Wetlands.

We're Ok With The Cubic Yards.

Chairman Judah: Questions Of Mary?

Just To Finish, I Said One Other Thing.



We Did Take This To The Committees, Affordable Housing Committee And The L.P.A. And All

The Committees, I Have That Summarized On The Memo For You If You Want The Details But

Basically They All Said Due To The State Of The Economy, They Would Not Recommend Any

Increases In The Fees At This Time.

Chairman Judah: Ok.

Also, I Did Have The Consult And Here.

We Have Power-Point If You Want A More Detailed Presentation Or We Can Answer Questions

Based On Public Input?

Chairman Judah: Take Public Comment?

Commissioner Hall: Yes.

Commissioner Bigelow: Let Me Ask Mary To Share With Us The Affordable Housing

Commission, Looking At The Approach Of Using Interest Fees On Affordable Housing.

The Affordable Housing Committee Voted Against Increases In Fees But They Recommended

We Set Up A Program Like We Have For The School Impact Fees Where You Would Take The

Interest Earned And Put Into It A Fund For Affordable Housing.

D.O.T. Is Here If You Want To Hear Their Opinion.

They Are Not Recommending That.

The Reason Is They Take The Interest Earned And Apply It To Projects.

Where Do You Want To Put It.

Do You Want It To Apply To It Projects That We're Not Getting A Lot Of Money From Impacts

Anyway.

They Would Prefer To Put It Right Back Into A Road Project.

Commissioner Bigelow: Thank You, Mary.

Chairman Judah: Commissioner?

Is That Before Us Tonight?



If You Want To Use Any Of Their Recommendations, If You Wanted To Do That --

Chairman Judah: I'm Finding We Are Moving Toward Affordable Housing.

If You Wanted To Do That You Would Have To Come Back With Some Type Of Ordinance To

Set It Up.

Chairman Judah: That's Not Before Us Right Now.

If You Wanted To Pursue It But You Couldn't Do It Tonight.

Commissioner Mann: I Suspect We Would Want To Hear From Gloria?

I Can Give You The Gloria Summary And The D.O.T. Summary.

Commissioner Hall: I Would Like To Hear What The Public Has To Say.

Some Of The People Here To Speak Are On Some Of The Committees.

Chairman Judah: Ok.

Commissioner Janes: I Have No Problem But I Thought You Were Leading Us To A Vote On It.

Commissioner Hall: She Would Probably Like Us To Give Them Direction If We Want To

Pursue It.

Commissioner Janes: Far Be It From Me To Stifle Public Input.

Chairman Judah: Well Guy To The Public.

Richard Derling.

Good Evening.

Good Evening.

For The Record I'm Here Tonight Representing The Lead Building Association.

Come To Talk About One Of Our Favorite Topics, Here We Are Again.

First Of All, We Would Like To State We Encourage And Support The Recommendations Of

Both The Committees And The Agency With Regard To Not Increasing The Fees At This Time

Even Though The Stood Shows A Small Increase.

We Do, However, Want To Make Digsal Comments With Regard To Those Numbers.



First Of All, We Feel The Numbers Are Suspect.

Land Costs Are Continuing To Drop.

There Was Discussion The Other Day Maybe That's Relatively True With Residential But Not

Commercial.

I Can Tell You As A Realtor And Builder Here In Lee County That Land Costs Commercial Or

Residential Is Continuing To Plummet.

So These Numbers Are Not Relevant.

The New Numbers Or Acquisitions Should Be Factored In.

All You Have To Do Is Drive Around Lee County And Look At Properties For Sale With Big

Banners On Them, Reduced.

Large Reductions.

We Believe That These Numbers For Land Costs Are Not Relevant.

The Other Thing Is Something We Haven't Heard Discussed, Which Is Level Of Service.

Everything Is Predicated With Road Impact Fees On Level Of Service.

I Would Tell You And I'm Sure All Of You Would Find This True In Driving In Lee County

Currently, There Is A Lot Less Traffic On The Roads.

Level Of Service Should Then Have Increased.

Road Capacity Should Be Better, Not Worse And Trip Generations Are Down As Well.

One Due To Fuel And The Other Is The Fact That Many Residents Here In Lee County Are

Unemployed.

Particularly In The Construction Industry.

Whereas The Committee's Recommendations To Nat Increase At This Time And In Some Case

Go Ahead And Implement The Decrease In Those Categories, We Feel That Action Is Not

Enough During What Is For Our Residents Here In Lee County An Extremely Difficult Time.

We Would Like To See This County Commission Take A Pro-Active Approach And Possibly



Look At Rolling Back Impact Fees To Have Digsal Stimulus To The Economy Here.

The People Who Need It Most Are Residents Of This County, Whom Are Desperately

Struggling To Survive.

They Are The Ones Who Actuality # Ultimately Pay These Fees.

It's A Misconception That I Pay It As A Builder.

It's Passed On To The Consumer.

They Are In Need Of Help Right Now And We Have Asked The Commission To Stand Up And

Do The Right Thing And Help Our Citizens And Not Only Not Impose This Increase But

Perhaps Look At Rolling Them Back.

Thank You For Your Time Today.

Chairman Judah: Thank You, Richard.

Steve Hartzel Followed Byron Edge.

Good Evening, Steve.

Good Afternoon.

I'm Here Today On Behalf Of The Real Estate Investment Society.

I Would Hike To Echo The Committee Recommendations That You Not Raised Impact Fees At

This Time.

As Mr. Dechlterling Just Pointed Out We Were A Number Of Folks That Appeared Before You

About A Year Or So Ago Asking You To Roll Back The Fees Because Of The State Of The

Economy And The Impact It Has On Local Businesses And Citizens Because Of The Economy.

Right Now, I Think It's Important To Remember That What You Do With Regard To These

Impact Fees Is Going To Send A Message Go Not -- To Not Just The County Itself But

Businesses Considering Relocating Here Or Starting Up In Lee County.

Right Now We Have One Of The Best Times Ever With Regard To Your Speaking Of Affordable

Housing, Finally Of Housing Locally Is Much More Affordable.



That Makes Lee County With All Of The Other Benefits That We've Got Much More Attractive

Place To Start Up A Business Or Relocate A Business.

We've Got That Plus Going For Us Right Now And We're Trying To Attract More Businesses

Here.

If What We Now Do Is Increase The Impact Fees, That Sends A Message.

It's A Negative Message That Offsets The Positives We Have Here.

At This Stage We Believe Due To The Economy Now Is The Wrong Time To Be Raising Any

Impact Fees.

With Regard To The Two Impact Fees That Would Be Decreased, Frankly If That's What It

Shows, For The Sake, Again, Of The Economy, You Have To Adopt The Decreases.

But Right Now, Please Don't Increase The Impact Fees.

The Other Point That I Wanted To Address Is With Regard To The Mining Fee.

As I Believe Mary Pointed Out, If You Do The Mining Fee Based On Gross Acreage, It Really

Doesn't Have An Equitable Impact.

Because You Can Have A Large Piece Of A Relatively Small Amount.

Everybody Thinks Big Piece Of Property You'll Mine The Whole Thing.

I Know Of A Project Already Filed And In The Process That Has Significant Wetlands And

Preservation Areas, So That It Was Mining Far Less Than The Entire Acreage.

That Project Would Be Negatively Impact By A Gross Acreage Impact Fee.

What Would Be Much More Equitable Would Be An Impact Fee Based On The Cubic Yards That

Will Be Mined.

The Rationale Nexus Or A Nexus Would Be There.

We Would Certainly Urge You If You Are Going To Adopt Impact Fees You Adopt Them In A

Way That Is More Rationally Connected To The Impact Which Would Be The Cubic Yard.

On The Other Hand, Now In The Mining Industry As Well As Anything Else, Wouldn't Be The



Time To Increase Those Impact Fees.

Thanks Very Much.

Chairman Judah: Thank You, Steve.

Ron Edge.

Good Evening, Ron.

Good Evening, Mr. Chairman, Members Of The Board.

I'm Here Representing Florida Rock Tonight On The Impact Issue.

I Want To Follow Up On The Comments Made Earlier For The Methodology Of Assessing The

Fees.

Florida Rock's Mine Number Two, 50% Of That Land Area Is Left In Preserve.

As Such, Those Materials Are Never Excavated And Never Have An Impact On The Road

Network.

So The Representation Based On Cubic Yard Is Much More Fair.

Having It Based On Cubic Yards Is Much More Equitable, We Think Been We Discussed This

With Mary And Sent Her A Letter And We'll Give You A Copy In A Moment We Think The Fee

Will Be Imposed On Those Operations That Pull Mining Operation Permits If You Adopt This

Fee After That Date.

Our Harper Division Has Been Out There For Decades And Has A Mining Operations Permit

Already And It Wouldn't Seem Appropriate To Assess It On That Operation In Existence And

Built Two Miles Of A Road A Few Years Ago But Our Mine Number Two That We Presented The

Case, We Consider It An Existing Mine It Does Not Have A Mining Permit And We Understand

It Would Be Subject To The Fee.

We Have One Of Each, The Harper Division That Should Not Be Subject To The Fee Because A

Portion All Or A Portion Of It Has A Mine Permit.

But If That Is The Basis For Assessing It Would Apply To Our Mine Number Two.



That's Our Second Point.

Existing Mines Get A Mine Development Order For The Whole Site.

So In Our Site All Of Our Site Number Two.

Because The Fees Are Financed Upfront We Would Have To Finance Those Fees Decades

Before The Impact Would Occur.

The Fees Should Be Assessed When A Mine Operations Is Pulled Because That's Your Permit

To Excavate That Area Of The Mine And That's When The Fees Should Be Assayed.

They Are Valid For 10 Years.

You're Paying For 10 Years Upfront.

But Not Over The Entire Mine Site, That Takes Decades.

I Believe Your Staff Agrees.

Those Mine Operation Permits As You Know Are Renewable Every 10 Years.

We're Anticipating Those Fees Would Be Payable One Time.

You Don't Have To Pay Every 10 Years For The Same Thing.

That Would Be Double And Quad Uranium Actions In Some Instances.

We Have Communicated These Points To Your Staff.

They Are Not In The Study, Or The Ordinance But We Would Like To Get Those To The Staff

And Seek Your Direction To Make Sure It Is Imposed As Equitably As Possible.

The Reason For Not Assessing Existing Operations With Our Harper Operation We Sent Quite

A Bit Of Money On A Road Network.

I Would Like To Pass Up A Letter.

Chairman Judah: Thank You, Ron.

Mr. Shinkman?

To Speak On The Road Impact Fee?

Yes.



Thank You.

Ron.

Good Evening.

Good Evening.

Appreciate Your Time Here.

I'm Here On Behalf Of Myself As A Citizen Of Lee County And The General Work Force

Unofficially.

I'm In The Construction Industry.

I'm A Project Manager That Do A Lot Of Commercial Work, The Company I Work For Which

I'm Not Going To Name.

Impact Fees Have Really Hurt The Industry.

I Deal With Developers On A Daily Basis And People Who Want To Build Projects In Lee

County.

The Thing That We're Seeing On A Regular Basis Is People Are Freaking Out About The

Impact Fees.

To Give You A Quick Idea, We Bid A Job, Commercial Strip Center, Underserved Area.

The Developer Really Wanted To Build It.

The Numbers Looked Good.

Then He Saw What The Permit Impact Fees Would Cost For A 20,000 Square Foot Building At

$226,000 He Looked At It And Said, You Know, How Can I Enough The Rent, $10 A Square

Foot To A Tennant For Impact Fees?

The Job Went Away.

We're Seeing This Over And Over And Over.

The Jobs Are Getting Thinner.

What's Going To Happen Is People Like Me Who Moved Here Eight Years Ago, Loved The Area,



It's Been Good To Us, We're Going To Run Out Of Work.

There's Nothing There.

We're Going To Have To Leave.

You're Going To Find A Lot Of Construction Personnel, Professionals, All Types Of People Who

Will Be Out Of Jobs That Are Going To End Up Leaving.

I See It Everyday.

I Experience It.

I've Seen It In Other Parts Of The Country We Love It Here.

We Don't Want To Have To Leave.

But What We're Seeing Is Every Time You Guys Start Talking About Raising Impact Fees

Develop Goers Why Should I Build In Lee County?

In Charlotte They Rolled Them Back.

They're Trying To Spur Development.

Hopefully They're Doing A Good Job.

We Need To Think About Doing That Here, Not Just Holding, Not Just -- Maybe Even Rolling

Back.

And Helping The Economy Keep Good People In The Area.

I'm Seeing It On A Personal Level How It's Hurting The Industry.

That Will Roll Into Other Sectors Of The Economy.

That's Just My Opinion.

We're Just Trying To Make Things Happen Around Here.


Thank You.

Chairman Judah: I Do Have Cards But I'm Not Sure If They Wish To Speak About The Impact

Fee But If They Do, We Welcome You.



Ma'am And Then Mr. Healy?

Did You Turn In A Card, Matt?

I Didn't Bring A Pen.

Chairman Judah: Mat Huely Rebelling Public Interest.

I Have A Wide Range Of Clients Including Commercial Developers.

I Sent You An E-Mail A Month Or So Ago On This Subject.

I Would Like To You Follow The Portions Of The Shaw Toed Call For The Decrease Of The Fees

In The Two Commercial Areas.

The Reasons For That Being The Practical Reason That It Will In Fact Make A Difference In

Some Areas, Maybe Not All But Some, As The Previous Speaker Just Described.

From A Legal Perspective I Don't Think It's Appropriate For The County To Maintain A Fee Not

Consistent With The Most Recent And Reliable Data.

I Think The County Does Have A Legal Obligation To Reduce Those Two Fees.

The Only Observation I Would Make Other Than That Is I Agree Mr. Derling On The Falling

Price Of Real Estate.

I Don't Expect You To Do Anything On That Tonight, But I Think The Increase In The Other

Fees Is Extremely Suspect Based On Everyday Experience.

Thank You.


Good Evening.

Seana Haney Here On Behalf Of Bolden Properties Of Fort Myers.

They Are In The Process Of Constructing A 120-Room Hotel On Bass Road And Had A Building

Permit Issued In January Of This Year.

At That Time They Had To Pay Over $800,000 In Impact Fees.

They Are Very Disconcerting To See We Have A Study Before Us Now And I'm Sure The Study



Was In The Works At That Time That Recommends An Impact Fee That Is A Reduction Of

Almost 1200 A Unit Which Would Have Been A Saving Of A Cultural00 Thousand For That

Hotel.

We Suggest You Put Something In There For Those Who Have Obtained Fees This Year, They

Are In The Process, There Is No Certificate Of Occupancy, To Consider Reimbursement For

Those Impact Fees Based On This New Data.

That's A Couple Of Hundred Thousand Dollars, That's Significant For A Developer.

We Understand The County Has Never Had This Issue Before In Terms Of A Decrease And

There's Nothing In The Code That Deals With Decreases But We Would Like To You Address

That.

Thank You.

Chairman Judah: Thank You, Ma'am.

Anyone Else?

We'll Go Back To The Board.

Mary?

Did You Want To Add Anything To The Discussion.

I Have A Couple Questions.

Chairman Judah: Open Up To Commissioner Hall.

Commissioner Hall: Mary, I Think Some Of The Points Made Are Valid Points.

I Guess My Question To You Is As We Go Forward, If We Want Digsal Amendments Made To

The Ordinance Does It Come Back To A Public Hearing?

You Can Do It One Of Two Ways.

I Would Suggest That We Can Just Put That Language, To Clarify Some Of The Procedures,

We Agree On Most Of What He Was Talking About.

There's Really Just In The Ordinance Itself There Is A Notation That Explains How You Assess



The Fees.

We Can Just Change That Language In That Ordinance.

If You Want To Adopt It Tonight, We Can Do That And Come Back For Another Public Hearing.

I Don't Think You Really Need To Do That.

Commissioner Hall: Let Me Ask The County Attorney, Would We Need To Do That?

Let Me Elaborate On What Ron Brought Up And I Think I Can Clarify That, I Think.

He Was Talking About They Agree With The Cubic Yard Versus The Gross Acres.

We're Good With That.

The Fee That Would Affect Mines That Would Not Affect Existing Mines That Have A Valid

Mining Operation Permit.

We're Good With That.

If You Come In For A New Mine Operation Permit Or You Have Expanded To A Different Area,

Expanded Your Footprint, Then Would You Get A New Mine Operation Permit And Pay The

Impact Fees.

But The Existing Mines With Valid Permits Would Not Have To Pay.

We Can Clarify That In Footnotes Unless Would You Like To Discuss It More.

And He Said Charge For The Cubic Yards From The Land Included In Your Mining Operation

Permit.

That Means You Don't Have To Pay It Up Front.

You Get The Development Order On Your Whole Site, It's 1,000 Acres But You Get A Mining

Permit On The Phase Of The Mine And You Would Pay On That Phase For Which You Are

Digging The Mine.

Then You Come In And Get A Permit On Another Area, You Pay That.

In Essence, It's Phased, Not One Big Payment Up Front.

Chairman Judah: It Upfront Or For The Phase?



Up Front On The Phase But Not The Whole Project.

Commissioner Hall: You Would Pay Once On That Permit.

I Come In And Say 100 Cubic Yards Get Mined In That 10-Year Period.

They Come In To Renew, They Would Pay Again Even Though It's That Same Pit, But They

Still Have To Mine There They Would Pay Again?

If They Came In To Renew, A Time Extension, The Same Cubic Yards They Told Us Before,

You Would Just Renew Your Pe Mitt And Go On.

Commissioner Hall: The Only Way They Pay Again Is If They Exceed The Cubic Yards.

If They Are Not Expanding They Would Not.

Right.

Commissioner Hall: I Think We Should Clarify That.

We Can Clarify That.

I Think We Agree With Everything Ron Said Except A Couple Points.

He Said Would You Pay On Renewal Not Your Initial Development Order For The Whole Site.

The Last Thing He Mentioned Was Giving Credit For Like In The Case Of Florida Rock Where

Years Ago, I Don't Know How Many Years Ago Alico Road Was Built.

There Is Nothing In The Ordinance You Go Back Over 20 Years And Provide Credits.

So I Think That Was A Little Bit -- That Would Be Considered Really A Site-Related

Improvement.

There May Be Ways Through Their Lawsuit Settlement Those Issues Could Be Addressed

Similar To An Independent Fee Calculation Bought I Don't Think You Want To Provide An

Ordinance For Improvements Years Ago.

There Was One Other Thing He Mentioned -- I Don't Know If He Mentioned It Tonight But He

Mentioned It At L.P.A. Yesterday.

If You Come In And Do An Office On The Mine Site That You Could Be Credited For That.



See, If You Are Paying On The Cubic Yards Of What You Are Mining And You Do An Office, The

Office Isn't In The Hole, So The Office Needs To Pay The Office Impact Fee.

It's Usually Minor Because It's A Modular Unit.

The Office Pace The Office Fee And The Mine Pays For The Hole.

But You Could Get Credit.

Lets Say They Have Post Mine Uses Later.

They Change The Mine And Do A Subdivision.

You Could Get Credits Depending Where The Houses Were Located If You Are Putting It In

That Area That Was Part Of That Permit, You May Be Able To Get Credits Later.

If It Was Another Area, You May Not.

That Would Be Case By Case.

I Think Basically We Agree On Most Of These And I Think We Could Write Some Language

Into The Ordinance That Clarifies That A Little Bit More.

Right Now It Says You Pay It When You Get Your Mining Operation Permit.

Commissioner Hall: I Want To Clarify With The County Attorney's Office.

Is Your Question Can We Draft It Without Bringing It Back?


Yes.

Commissioner Hall: Thank You.

Commissioner Mann: I'm Still Confused.

Is It As Extracted Or In Advance?

In Advance.

Let's Say You Have A Big Mine, But You're Going To Mine Out 100 Acres.

You Come In To Get What Used To Be A Development Order, Now It's The Mine Operation

Permit.



I'm Going To Mine 100 Acres, This Many Cubic Yards.

Before We Issue The Permit You Pay That Fee, You Get Your Permit, You Go On.

Later You Want To Do Another Piece, Then You Would Pay For That Phase.

Or You Could Do It All Up Front But You Can Phase It Out.

Did I Help?

Commissioner Mann: What Is A Typical Size For A New Mine Operation?

They Are All Over The Place?

A New Mine Could Be 1,000 Acres, 30 Acres.

Depending If It Was A Dirt Mine Or A Sand Mine.

And The Sizes Vary.

It Could Be Thousands Of Acres Or 100 Acres.

Most Of Them Do Phase.

So I Think They Appreciate The Fact That You Can Do It At Your Operation Permit.

They Don't Want To Pay The Whole Thing Upfront.

They Don't Know How Much They Will Mine Because So Much Depends On The Economy.

Commissioner Mann: Thank You.

Chairman Judah: Mary, You Have Done An Outstanding Job Working With The Industry, The

Building Industry And The Mining Industry.

Appreciate It.

Back To The Board Then?

Commissioner Hall: Mr. Chairman?

I Support The Decreases In The Areas That Decreases Are Being Shown And -- But Again I'm

Going Back To When We Have Increases And People Have Met That Increase We Don't Go

Back And Charge Them More When They Are Not There.

In The Effort Of Being Consistent.



We Have An Enormous Amount Of Inventory Sitting On The Market Waiting To Be Leased.

I Don't Want To Spur New Development Because They Can Undercut Existing Space.

I'm Going To Support Staying Consistent With How We Pay Impact Fees Under The Lines That

Come.

It Is What It Is.

We Have Two Categories Seeing A Reduction.

If They Were An Increase We Wouldn't Charge The Guy With The Pipeline More.

It's Hard To Say Let Those Guys Have Left.

It's Always A Timing Issue.

Somebody Is Always On One Side Or The Other Of That Line.

Secondly, I Recognize The Challenge We Have With Impact Fees Right Now, But I Just Can't

In Good Conscience Support The 7% Increase.

I Would Rather See Us Hold Impact Fees At The Status Quo.

We're Not Seeing A Large Amount Of Activity Right Now.

I Do Believe It Does Send The Right Message.

It Holds The Market Fair To What's Out There And Doesn't Preclude Anyone From Having To

Pay More.

That's The Position I'm In.

I Would Certainly Support The Amendments On The Mining Fee.

Chairman Judah: Is That A Motion?

Commissioner Hall: Absolutely.

Chairman Judah: We Have A Motion.

What You Stated Is For Those Two Categories, Hotel-Motel And Shopping Centers We Adopt

The Adjusted Rate Downward And Leave The Rest At The Current Rate, Don't Increase And

Go With Cubic Yards Formula And The Rest Of The Conditions That Mary Talked About With



Regards To The Mining?

Commissioner Hall: That's Correct.

Chairman Judah: Yes, Mary?

One Point.

We're Not Going To Adopt The Increases.

But When We Adopt These Decreases On These Two, The Hotel And Motel And Retail

Shopping Center, I Don't Want To Explain This, I'm Not Smarter Than A Fifth Grader, But The

Point That Matt Brought Up With The Recent Data, What We'll Be Doing It Is Adopting It At

93%, Not The 7% Increase.

That Makes The Hotel And Motel And Retail Go Down Slightly More.

The Numbers For The Hotel-Motel Would Be $5,172 And Retail, $10,983, A 31% Increase.

Don't Make Me Explain.

Chairman Judah: Decrease.

Decrease.

It Will Be A Little Bit Lower?

Commissioner Judah: Logical Ok With That?

Yes.

What She's Saying Is We're Adopting The Most Recent Study At 93% Of What They Are

Recommending The Fees Should Be.

That Way We Ensure There Is No Increase And The Decreases Will Decrease A Little Bit

Further To Reflect That 93%.

Chairman Judah: And Keeps Us Neutral With The Existing Rates.

Correct.

The End Result Is No Net Increase.

And I Have Two More.



Chairman Judah: That's In The Motion.

Two More Comments.

We're Going To Merge The Boca Grande With The North District.


The Effective Dates For The Decreases Would Be Tomorrow.

We're Geared Up Four That Because They Are Decreasing You Should Adopt As Soon As

Possible.

But The Mine We'll Change The Language On The Mine Fee Because The Statute Says You

Have To Give 90 Days Notice.

We'll Change The Dates On The Mine Fee.

They Won't Be Effective For 90 Days.

Chairman Judah: Very Good.

Appreciate The Attorneys Work On This Obviously Along With Mary And The Staff.

Ok.

We Have A Motion And Second.

Full Understanding Of What We Are About To Approve.

In Think Further Objection?

Discussion?

Hearing No Objection, Motion Passes.

And If I'm Not Mistaken That Was Probably The Last Item To Discuss As Part Of The Public

Hearing.

We Now Have Public Comments And We Have Jeba, Solarna.

Good Evening.

I'm Here Again As A Resident, Not Representing Any Organization, Just As A Resident Of Lee

County.



I'm Here To Talk About The Flood Victims From Manna Christian.

I Was Here A Couple Weeks Ago.

I Heard The Discussion And I Commented And I Want To Say That I Thought Y'all Made A Lot

Of Good Decisions At That Time That Took Into Account The Short-Term And Long-Term

Needs Of The Situation.

I'm Here To Ask You To Make Two More Good Decisions In Relation To This Situation.

Apparently The Long-Term Recovery Team Is Going To Be Able To Relocate The Manna

Christian Residents With One Month Of Rent.

This Is Fantastic That They Are Able To Do This, One Month, But In My Opinion One Month Is

Not A Sustainable Solution Because First Of All These Folks Have Been Paying Way Below

Market Rates.

Suddenly They Are Going To Be In A Situation Where They Are Paying Market Rates That

They Can't Afford And One Month Is Not Going To Give Them Enough Time To Rectify That

And Come Up With A Long-Term Sustainable Solution.

So I Would Ask The Commissioners To Consider Appropriating Funds For The Amount Of Two

Digsal Months Rent For These Folks So They Have A Total Of Three Months To Get Their Lives

Back Together.

That's The First Thing I Want To Ask.

And Because The County Did Not Enforce The Code Violations For The Last 12 Years And Then

Decided At This Point To Enforce The Code Violations, The People Living In The Trailer Parks

Were Under The Impression That They Would Be Able To Use Those Trailers, I'm Talking

About The People That Bought The Trailers.

They Were Under That Impression.

And I Feel That Because The County Went Along With The Code Violations For 12 Years That

There Is A Shared Responsibility For The Situation And For The Loss Of The Trailers.



So I'm Asking The Commission To Consider Appropriating Funding For The Replacement Value

Of Those Trailers.

No Matter What You Find Out That Is, Some Nominal Amount, To Give These People Toward

The Replacement Value Of The Trailers That They Lost.

Again, I'm Speaking To You As A Resident Of Lee County And I Consider These People My

Neighbors Because They Are Residents Of Lee County.

I'm Asking To You Help My Neighbors Get Back On Their Feet And Find A Long-Term

Sustainable Solution For Them.


Appreciate It.

Steve Cook.

Followed By Janet Jones.

Mr. Cook.

Good Evening.

Good Evening.

My Name Is Steve Cook.

I've Lived In Lee County For Almost 50 Years.

I'm Very Concerned About The Huge Increases In Taxes And The Disproportionate Of County

Government That's Occurred Over The Last Few Years.

I Recently Received My Trim Notice.

There Were A Lot Of Add-Ons That Cost Big Bucks.

I Recall When They Were First Initial Ideas.

I Believe They Will Break The Backs Of The Taxpayers.

You Talk About Affordable Housing But I Would Like To Point Out That Housing Is One Cost Of

The Cost Of Living.



You Have Increased The Fee Of Every Fee Living In Lee County Charges.

A Fee Of $20 A Year Increases By 40%.

Sewer Rates Were Increased To Get People Off Septic Tanks.

You Pay A Large Impact Fee To Hook Up To The System And If You Are A Developer You Pay

The Costs Required And Increase The Monthly Rates 25%.

And Also Huge Impact Fees On New Construction And When You Are Not Collecting Them You

Are Reluctant To Make Downward Reductions.

Property Values Are Coming Down And Taxes Are Not Coming Down In Proportion.

The Average Citizen Has To Adjust Spending And Budgets As Required.

I Do Not See Lee County Government Willing To Do That.

On September 9 I Learned Lee County Has A $1.5 Billion Surplus.

That Is In The Enough Apparently To Reduce Taxes.

In The Library Fund Alone There Was $60 Million.

A Member Of Your Staff Pointed Out That Is Enough Money To Fund All The Projects You Have

Planned And Still Have A Fund Balance Left Even If You Didn't Collect Digsal Money Next Year.

Despite The Surplus Only Two Members Suggested Suspending The Millage And Three Were

Opposed.

I Left The Meeting Wondering If Anyone Is Looking Out For The Taxpayer.

I'm Reminded Of The Children's Story Of The Goose That Laid The Golden Egg.

The Taxpayers Are The Goose.

The Lee County Government Has Squeezed Out All The Golden Eggs And Still Wants A

Stranglehold On The Goose.

It's Time To Give The Goose Time To Breathe And Grow.

Chairman Judah: Thank You, Mr. Cook.

Janet Jones.



Good Evening.

I'd Like To Talk About The Budget That's Going To Be Approved Tomorrow.

This Is Comments About That.

You Stand At A Crossroad, One That Will Have Lasting Effect On The Citizens Of Lee County

How Each And Every One Of You Votes On The Budget Is Going To Determine The Economic

Health Of Our County.

You Look At The Unemployment Rate Of Our County, 9%, One Of The Highest In The State.

This Figure Doesn't Take Into Account Those Still Employed But Working Only Two Or Three

Days A Week Instead Of Five.

Consider The Number Of Foreclosures, 12,000 With Another 22,000 Backed Up In Charlie

Green's Office.

Working Overtime Staff Still Cannot Handle The Excess.

It's Not Difficult To See Our Economy Is Depressed.

If The Goal Is To Help People Avoid Foreclosure Go Beyond The 25,000 Considered For The

Homeowners Resource Center And Give Taxpayers A Decrease In Property Taxes As The Rest

Of The Country People Here Are Struggling To Meet Basic Needs, Food, Housing,

Transportation Costs Are All Soaring For The Average Lee County Citizens.

During The Housing Boom Tax Revenue Collections Doored 80% Higher Than The Previous

Two Years.

Those Bubbles Have Popped Yet The Proposed Budget Trims Less 37b%.

It's A Sad Substitute For Real Tax Reduction.

Our Family Has Endured Economic Times When There Was No Raise Or Bonus For Years.

We Were Grateful To Have A Job.

Commissioners Bigelow And Mann I Thank You For Expressing A Desire To Relieve The Burden

On Taxpayers And Asking The Tough Questions.



Reduce The Budget Now And Be Known As Prudent And Conservative In Government

Spending.

The Taxpayers Are Watching Your Actions.

Thank You.

Chairman Judah: I Don't Have Any Other Carts.

Seeing No Others In The Audience, We Are Adjourned.

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