TRANSCRIPT OF 7/19/97 PUBLIC MEETING ON PROPOSED PLAN

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ORIGINALIN THE HATTER OF THE

MARION (BRAGG) DUMP SITE PROPOSED PLAN PUBLIC MEETING

July 16, 1997 at 7:00 PM.

Marion Public Library - 600 South Washington St.

The Marion (Bragg) Dump Site Proposed Plan public meetingmet on July 16, 1997 at Marion Public Library, 600 SouthWashington St., Marion, Indiana. All statements were taperecorded before me, LaDonna G. Oatis, Court Reporter.

REPRESENTING THE U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY (EPA):

Noemi EmericCommunity Involvement CoordinatorOffice of Public AffairsUS EPA, Region 577 West Jackson Blvd.Chicago, IL 60604

Bernard SchorleRemedial Project ManagerSuperfund DivisionUS EPA, Region 577 West Jackson Blvd.Chicago, IL 60604

REPRESENTING THE INDIANA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTALMANAGEMENT (IDEM):

Tony LikinsOffice of Environmental ResponseIDEMP.O. Box 6015100 N. Senate Ave.Indianapolis, IN 46206-6015

THE OFFICE COURT REPORTING SERVICE301 S. Adams Street * Marion, IN 46952

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INDEX OF EXAMINATION

Page No.

LIST OF ATTENDEES

HEARING ON JULY 10, 1997

Introduction by Ms. Noemi Emeric . . . . . . . . . 0 3 - 1 1

Opening Remarks by Mr. Bernard Schorle . . . . . . 11-63

Formal Comment Period . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 - 9 3

NOTARY CERTIFICATION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 94

ATTACHMENTS:

THE OFFICE COLRT REPORTING SERVICE301 S. Adams Street * Marion, IN 46952

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List of Attendees

1. Dorothy Alabach627 North 125 WestValparaiso, IN 46385219-462-0330Organization. Many

2. Victor Alabach627 North 125 WestValparaiso, IN 463 85219-462-0330

3. Dottie Easterday882 South 372 EastMarion, IN 46953765-662-1832Organization: Heal

4. Florence Ervin702 E. Bond Ave.Marion, IN 46952765651-9008

5. Lorell Fleming (reporter)61 OS. Adams StreetMarion, IN 46952765-664-51 ll,ext. 256Organization: Chronicle Tribune

6. Becky Ford1521 S. Pennsylvania Ave.Marion, IN 46952765-662-8822Organization: Personal

7. Patricia Greenburg7563 S. 600 W.Jonesboro, 1N46938765-922-4918

8. Philip Greenburg321 S. Adams StreetMarion, IN 46952765-651-2413Organization: Grant Co. Extension Service

9. Bruce Kennington103 N. l lth Ave., Ste 210St. Charles, IL 60174630-443-1940Organization: De Maximis, Inc.

10. Francis Marley1936W. 16th St.Marion, IN 46953765-664-6369Organization: Personal

11. William McElhaneyP.O. Box 718Marion, IN 46952765-664-2391Organization: Marion Utilities

12. Craig PersingerPO Box 113Marion, IN 46952765-664-9041

13. Richard Purvis410 Campbell Ave.Marion, IN 46952765- 664-0790Organization: Isaac Walton League

14. Edith M. Smith1100 Baldwin Ave.Marion, IN 469522765-662-0964

15. Marijean Stephenson3415 Stone RoadMarion, IN 46953765-674-5670Organization: Heal, Inc.

16. Harold Vermillion3513 Central Ave.Marion, IN 46953765-664-6782

17. Jan Webster3726 N.E. Shadeland Ave.Marion, IN 46952765-664-0059Organization: WBAT Radio Station

in

1 INTRODUCTION

2 BY MS. NOEMI EMERIC

3 I think we'll go ahead and start, it's about ten after.

4 Just like to welcome everyone for attending. My name is Noemi5 Etneric and I work for the U.S. Environmental Protection6 Agency. I'm a Community Involvement Coordinator and the7 meeting tonight is a Proposed Plan Meeting for the Marion8 Bragg Superf und Site and it' s for Operable Units Two and

9 Three. Bernie, who is the R.P. on, Bernie Schorle, will be

10 giving an overview of the proposed plan and we'll have, after11 he gives his overview, we'll have a question and answer12 session and we'll have the formal public comment period.

13 Urn... If, I think I've gotten everyone to sign the sign-in14 sheet, it's just very important that you sign that, one, to

15 cross reference your spelling of your name and then also if16 you didn't receive the proposed plan fact sheet in the mail,17 this way your name will be put on the mailing list and you'll

18 receive information in the future. And if you got the

19 proposed plan fact sheet then you know that the public comment

20 period ends July 28th. Tonight is just one, one way that you21 can um... give your comment either oral or written, you can

22 also write them in to us, which my name is on the information

23 sheet, which was located at the back of the table with my

24 address and we also have an (800) number. My e-mail address

25 is on there and you can also send it that way.


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MR. SYMMES

MS. EMERIC

MR. SYMMES

MS. EMERIC

MR. SYMMES

MS. EMERIC

MR. SYMMES

I'd like to make one comment. People that

(inaudible) notified of this...

I'm sorry, let me, let me just make this real

quick. If you're gonna make a comment, we

have a court reporter...

It's not a comment about the site, it's about

the comment period.

Well no, it' s just that she has to record

everything in its entirety and we have a court

reporter and so, before you say anything, even

if it's not a public... I mean a formal

comment that you're making, she needs to

record your name. So, if you could just state

it and if you have an uncommon name if you

could also spell it.

Do you want me to go ahead and make my comment

about the comment, on the comment...

Sure.

My name is Jeff Symmes and I'm going to make a

comment about the a, 30 days a. . . The letters

weren't sent out from the E.P.A. until June

30th and the comment period's for 30 days. Is

that from the day they mailed from the E.P.A.,

which means it may be up to a week before

anyone from the public may receive this

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1 information? I think there needs to be an

2 extension of at least 30 days set forth at

3 this time. And I also believe that there was

4 two full boxes of documents that were not

5 mailed out to the Repository till July 1st.

6 For us to be able to review these documents to

7 make comments on this meeting and this

8 presentation, I believe that this warrants a-

9 length of time. And I'd like to have an

10 answer now.

11 MS. EMERIC: I'm not sure if we can give you the answer

12 right now, that might be something that we

13 have to take into consideration, that I can't

14 make that decision now and Bernie can't as

15 well. It may be something that we have to

16 speak to our management about. So we wil."

17 take the comment and we can let you know. . .

18 and regarding the date of when they were sent

19 out, I can definitely check that and get back

20 to you and if it wasn't 30 days and if they

21 agree with the extension, do a 15/30, your

22 request was 30 days, we'll let you know.

23 Urn. . . And as I was saying, we have a court

24 reporter over here to my right, this is Donna

25 Oatis and she' s going to record the whole

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meeting in its entirety and another reason it

was important for you to sign in, there's

going to be transcripts of this meeting and

they'll be located in the information

Repository, but if you would like um...

specific, maybe the public comments that were

said at the end of formal and you want it sent

to you, make sure that your name is on there

and let me know following the meeting. At

this time I think we' 11 go ahead and let

Bernie give his presentation. Actually before

you do I want to introduce the person from

the. Remedial Project Manager from the Indiana

Department of Environmental Management, this

is Tony... and also!.. Bruce Kennington, the

contractor from De Minimis (sic), who is also

with us.

From who?

De Min...

MR. KENNINGTON:De Maximis (phonetic).

MS. EMERIC: De Maximis... De Maximis

MR. KENNINGTON:The opposite of De Minimis.

MS. ALABACH: I didn't hear where he's from?

MS. STEPHENSON:What is De Maximis?

MR. KENNINGTON;De Maximis, Incorporated.

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MR. SYMMES:

MS. EMERIC:

1 MR. SCHORLI: They're, they're the contractor who a... was

2 hired by the, the PRP'S (sic) that did the a

3 site work, they oversaw that...

4 MR. SYMMES: What state are they from?

5 MR. KENNINGTON:What state am I from? I'm a resident of the

6 State of Illinois.

7 MR. SYMMES: No, with company, your company, where is it

8 from?

9 MR. KENNINGTON:Um... We're a... located, affiliated, we have

10 our corporate headquarters at Knoxville,

11 Tennessee. We have offices throughout the

12 country.

13 MS. ALABACH: Can you give us your business card, so that we

14 can...

15 COURT REPORTER:Excuse me, I have to know who's speaking if I'm

16 going to transcribe. I'm sorry, but I do have

17 to know who.is speaking or else it won't make

18 any...

19 MS. ALABACH: I'm Dorothy Alabach from Valparaiso, Indiana.

20 MS. EMERIC: And how do you spell your last name?

21 MS. ALABACH: A-L-A-B-A-C-H.

22 COURT REPORTER:Thank you.

23 MS. EMERIC: And the contractor's Bruce Kennington.

24 COURT REPORTER:Thank you.

25 MS. EMERIC: After Bernie gives his presentation... during

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MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

his presentation Bernie is allow... saying

that you can ask him questions during his

presentation, instead of waiting for him

afterwards, going through on the agenda we

have his presentation and the question and

answer session. You can ask him questions

throughout his presentation, but understand

there's going to be a time limit, so we may

have to cut you off at some point so we can

leave time for the formal comment period. And

during the formal comment period you, your

comment can be either a comment, it can be a

statement, or it can be a question, but

understand if we're in the formal comment

period we cannot answer your question, it

would just be statement, question, or one

after another, it wouldn' t be something that

we could respond to. How we'11 respond to

that is in a Responsiveness Summary that will

be sent to the information Repository and if

you' d like a copy sent directly to you make

sure you let me know and I can note that on

the sign-in sheet.

May I ask a question, please? Dorothy...

Go ahead.

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MS. ALABACH

MS. EMERIC:

MS. ALABACH

MS. EMERIC:

Dorothy Alabach. A... When you respond on the

response, will it be a direct answer to each

question or a summarized version instead of a

direct answer? I look for the evidence and

confirmation of who said what, what question

I asked, whether it was asked directly or not

directly. That evidence is what I keep a

running a... track record of. So, summarizing,

evidence which I have read, often with EPA and

IDEM, I resent and reject, because they are

public agencies supposedly to serve the

public. I have witnessed, I was there when

IDEM was set up. Since then, the Bill 416

took IDEM and handed it over to the control of

the corporation, which I also resent because

of public pays for the agency. So, I need

direct answers to my questions, I'd appreciate

it.

Okay, I'll take that comment.

Thank you.

Generally, how we respond in the

Responsiveness Summary, is that it is a

summary and it's a summation of all the

comments and it's basic response to comments,

not generally question and answer, but we will


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MS. ALABACH

MS. EMERIC:

MR. SYMMES:

take that into consideration.

Thank you.

And also, so you won11 feel like that I 'm

being rude, I am going to cut off the

presentation and the questions and answers at

8:00 so we can leave an hour for the formal

commentary. If we do not have enough comments

or enough questions and you have other

questions that you want answers to directly,

we can stop the formal comment period and we

can go back to a question and answer session.

So, at 8:00 will be when we'll turn it over. . .

I'm sorry... the meeting ends, 8:15, because

the meeting ends at 9:00 so, 8:15 it'll give

us 45 minutes. So, at this time Bernie. And

just one thing, since he is um. . . going to

allow you to ask questions during his

presentation, if we would all just be

respectful of one another and when someone's

speaking if we would allow them to finish

their statement and then be respectful of

others to make, give everyone an opportunity

to speak and not um. . . take over the whole

floor.

Raise our hands, is that what you want us to

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MS. EMERIC:

MR. SCHORLE

do if we want to speak? If we have a

question? My name is Jeff Symmes.

Urn... That1s fine.

OPENING REMARKS

BY MR. BERNARD SCHORLE

During the four a... back in a, 1987 there was

a Record of Decision written for the FirsC—f

Operable Unit, which addressed the wastes that

were at the site. And following that we

negotiated with a, some of the parties have

been named the potentially responsible parties

or PRP's. We reached a settlement with them

and what we referred to in the, in the Consent

to Decree that we obtained, as the generator

defendants, they performed the a, the remedial

action or remedial design and remedial action

at the site. Primarily this involved

installing a cap on the site. A... Fencing

the site, putting some flood protection in and

a... When, while we were doing this work we

discovered that a, the southern part of the

river bank was a, also contained some waste

so, that a... we put some rip rap along there

to protect that river bank a. . . when the

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1 river's flooding and a, actually extended the

2 rip rap (sic) on into the river to protect tow

3 (sic) of that bank. I went out there today and

4 a... walked around with a video camera and

5 videoed the site. Urn... Now I haven't seen

6 this so, I'm not, and I'm not a, anywhere near

7 a professional photographer so, a. . . have to

8 make allowances for that.

9 [Sets up Video]

10 [Referring to Video Presentation]

11 This is near the entrance to the a... the

12 inner part of the site. While we were a, a,

13 doing the work out there we a... in this part

14 back here we had the trailers for the a. . . the

15 contractors and the, and a, the oversight

16 people and then the site itself, actually is

17 from that fence on back. A... In this area

18 in, in here a... when the site work started

19 there was one home in there and that was torn

20 down. As far as the site work. Where the

21 trailers were, it used to be the a, the area

22 where Marion Paving was located. Now, Dobson

23 Construction is still located out there next

24 a, next to the site. This is a view of the,

25 the on-site pond from the south... west corner

THE OFFICE COURT REPORTING SERVICE301 S. Adams Siret-l * Marion, IN 46952

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MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS, ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

of the pond. The eleva. . . or the water

elevation seems to be a little bit high. A...

You can tell by a, one of these islands out

here a... essentially the trees are in the

water. Although generally, the Mississinewa

River looks fairly low a... probably because

of lack of rain. There's one low area on the

site that we left a... that I'd always seen as^

a, containing water, but it's dry now.

Question.

Yes.

Dorothy Alabach. How often is the lab test

done on this water?

Uh... Every six months they test the pond.

And how has that testing results, have they

come out without any contamination?

Uh. . . It's somewhat elevated compared to the,

the water to off-site pond, south of the site.

Some of the results are summarized in the a,

in the record, in the a, proposed plan.

What is the contamination?

A... Well, it... there's, there's a, when I

say elevated, for instance sodium is a little

bit higher than what it is in, in the off-site

pond. There's really no contamination... no


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MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MR. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

a... things with a... let's see if I can stop

this.

[Stops Video Tape]

In other words you're relying on it to be

contained, what the problem is, is being

contained?

What do you mean by being contained?

Well you're assuming, both agencies, that the

site is contained from any contamination off-

site, is that correct?

Well, we, we have a couple of what we call

background wells that are checking the ground

water that essentially comes on the site. The

testing of the, the, the large pond and the,

and the a... on the property to the south of

the site is also essentially checking

background water.

And all those are access public records at

IDEM, right?

Well, the results of that are all in the a,

Repository over at the library now. Uh... We

get reports a. . . Now when I, we, we get the. . .

that, that pond and a, the river and the a...

the well, the monitoring wells are sampled

every six months a. . . for a major round of, of

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MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH:

MR. SCHORLE:

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE:

MS. ALABACH

MR. SYMMES:

analysis. The... and then in the

intermediate, or half way between those six

month periods, the a... the groundwater wells

are, are sampled for a, just really, about

half a dozen different parameters. That, that

kind of follow... what we've referred to as,

kind of the IDEM parameters or indicator

parameters. They've, they've... fall under...

some requirements that were in the a... the a,

a... regulations for a, municipal land fills.

How much time elapses from the lab test to the

Repository for public access?

Uh... I have not been sending the reports to,

to the Repository a... on any regular basis.

We, we get... a... we get the reports anywhere

from, I guess three to six months generally,

after the sampling is done.

After the sampling?

Yeah.

But it doesn't go to the Repository?

Uh... That's a failing on my part, yeah. I,

I have not been sending them very regularly.

Thank you.

Jeff Symmes. I have another question,

Bernie...


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MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES

MR. SCHORLE:

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE;

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE;

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE;

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

Yes. Okay.

So, you're testing for PCB's and pesticides

and 150 priority pollutants I assume, during

the testing, is that what the...

We1re doing...

...scale is?

Pardon?

150 priority pollutants, PCB's...

They are not doing PCB's, they've never been

shown to, to a...

How many times have they tested for it?

What? For the PCB's?

Right.

They were just tested for during the RI, the

remedial investigation.

^87, back in ^87?

Yeah. And...

And they've never been tested for since then?

No, we've been doing a... the, the volatiles,

the semi-volatiles, and the inorganic's.

Is it 150 chemicals you're testing for...

Well... the volatiles is a, something like 35,

33 or 35, the semi-volatiles I think brings

you up a little over 100 total, so it adds

maybe 65 more.

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MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

And what are there, 70,000 chemicals in use in

America today?

Uh... Could be, yeah.

So, there's 68,000 some...

When, when you do a, when the lab does a test

for volatiles or semi-volatiles a... and I'm

not a analytical chemist, but the way this

work runs out is, they get, they get a readou""**

from their instrument and there can be other

peaks or... the concentrations of, of the

various components show up as peaks on, on

their chart.

And they're called unknowns, is that right?

Well, then we... yeah. What I'm getting at is

besides, for instance when you do a, a test

for volatiles a. . . these 33 or 35 I forget

what it is, the, then you get what we call a

ten, tentatively identified compounds, and

they'll report up to, I think something like

15 or 20 of those. And a... So, those, so you

can get... so, you're not completely ignoring

the other things besides the...

Like. . . furans, dioxin, this has also been

sampled for?

Uh. . . We have not done a test directly for

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MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

dioxin's I know.

Or furans, either one?

Uh... Not, not in that respect, no.

So, it wouldn't show up on the peaks...

Uh... I don't.,.

...of volatile organic's?

...know, I don't know about that. Uh... I

don't know if they would or not.

Was this site an open burn dump site?

Uh. . . I think he did a. . . from, as I remember

from some of the reports, there was some

burning. Uh. . . There was some accidental

burning in that a...

Some explosions?

...some of the solvents apparently caught fire

and a...

So, he...

I, I, I understood he lost a couple of

tractors...

Doesn't this burning of solvents and like,

waste oils cause furans and dioxins sometimes

to become...

That's...

...prevalent?

...certainly a possibility, but those would be

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MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

under the cap now.

Well, they could get into the ground water

though, and they1re not being monitored,

that's the point I'll get at here.

Um. . . those. . . Uh. . . As I, as far as I know

dioxins and furans are fairly insoluble and,

and a...

Very, are what...*̂

Are fairly insoluble in, in the water.

Like PCB's?

Uh. . . I don't know. I, I can't compare them.

I, I mean... ground PCB's will, do show up to

some...

Summarizing what I said, basically we're not

testing for everything that could be out

there?

Uh... We're not. .. yeah... no.

Okay. I'll let you go ahead.

[Turns Video Presentation Back on]

More or less, as you can see it, the water

level in the pond is a, somewhat elevated.

This a... T don't know why I'm not getting the

sound that I talked into it. I think this is

down in the south east corner of the site.

First looking toward the pond and then 1 kind

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1 of scanned around and this will be over toward

2 the river. No, no, no, this, this is... that

3 was in the south east corner or south west

4 corner of the pond and what it was is just

5 showing the a, the a, the grass on the site.

6 And also, this rip rap structure. We, there's

7 several of them that were put in out there.

8 A... Once you kind of build the cap you find

9 out where the water wants to run and then...

10 if you're having some erosion problems, you,

11 you've got to address that, and a, this was

12 done out there. This corner of the pond and

13 the south east corner of the pond, also has a

14 rip rap structure. This is standing in the

15 sense of that same area, looking lower toward

16 the a... the east and the south. That a,

17 white material there, there is a road... a, a

18 gravel road, that runs around the site,

19 primarily a, so that we can get, have access

20 to the, the monitoring wells. I guess that

21 first white was probably one of the other rip

22 rap structures. That white is a, the road.

23 This is a. . . this was a decontamination pad

24 that was put in during the a, a... the work

25 out there. And right now we're just using it

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MR. SCHORLE

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a, this tank they'll put purged water a, when

they sample and they use these drums for, to

purge water. When it gets full then a, they

dispose of that purged water. I believe

probably to the a, the waste water treatment

plant. This is looking down the road toward

the... to the east. So, where these trees are

back here would be by the river.**,

Bernie, I have another question.

Yeah.

These decontamination, was it tested for the

elements that I was mentioning a while ago to,

such as PCB's, dioxins, or anything like that?

Those... Uh...

Heavy metals?

That decontamination water, I believe was

tested before it was taken to be disposed of.

Just for the few things that they normally

test for?

Uh. . . I'm not sure, I don't remember what they

tested for on that. Whether they a...

probably they may have just tested what they

had to, to see that it was acceptable a, to

the, the waste water treatment plant. I think

that's where most of it went.


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MR. SCHORLE

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And then the sludge process from that was

hauled to the fields, is that correct?

Uh... I'm not sure where the sludge from the

waste water treatment plant goes. I, I mean

at one time a... when this site was operating

they were taking sludge out there. A. . .

Another area that I, that I 'm a little bit

familiar with around one of my other sites, I

know the waste water treatment plant probably

does apply sludge to fields sometimes, but

most of the time it goes to a land fill,

because they can't dispose of as much as they

get. . .

You did say Marion Bragg Dump took sludge?

Uh... I'm pretty sure that it did. I believe

that's why we named the Marion Utilities

Service Board as a, as a PRP...

PRP. Did you have any kind of (inaudible)

data which would... the amounts of sludge and

what was contained in the sludge?

Uh. . . I believe we did. . . I think we had

some data on the sludge. I, I don't remember

for sure. Uh. . . I know I've seen data on

some sludge for a site, I can't remember

whether it was this site or one of my other


(765) 662-0015 * Fax (765) 662-8340 22

1 sites. Uh... But a... if we, if we had any

2 data it was probably a, not a whole lot of

3 data.

4 [Refers to Video Tape]

5 Now this I, I think is one that I was standing

6 down at the south east corner. Started out

7 scan, scan... I can't think of the word, but

8 anyway, started out pointing toward the pone

9 and then swung it around and, and I think this

10 is toward the river. But a, we're pretty much

11 up on a hill and you really can't see the

12 river bank a... Now, the a, the City of

13 Marion is taking. . . a, right now this is

14 probably from the pond, cause this looks like

15 the road here. A... Well, no, there's a road

16 down... This is the low area. This would be

17 the cemetery over here. This would be a, west

18 of the pond and this is a low area1. . . that we

19 ... it's low because the wastes were not

20 disposed of there. This is an area that we

21 kind of left as, to be somewhat of a wetland

22 and for the first two or three years after the

23 cap was put in, that usually had water in it.

24 Now it's all dried up. Now, in those first

25 couple of years that, it probably had water,

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MR. SCHORLE

because we had one or two floods around that

time and got a lot of water from the

Mississinewa. There's a bank over toward the

cemetery that when you get flood waters in,

they can't all flow back out.

Is that where the quarry was?

Well, the whole site was quarry.

So, it was what, 70 feet deep?

Uh... Not in this area, no. I mean, because

the ground water would be not too, too much

below that.

What, what's in the ground...

The, the pond water is essentially the water

table.

So, the landfill's buried into the...

There, there are some, there... are some

wastes...

Excuse me, not a landfill, the dump, excuse

me?

Yeah. There are some wastes that got put into

the a, into the water, I mean, you can see,

uh. . . This is looking back toward the, the

front gate from down there. The a. . . Uh. . .

Okay... Hold the question... This is looking

at the site from across the river a... where


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MS. STEPHENSON

MR. SCHORLE:

MS. STEPHENSON

MR. SCHORLE:

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE:

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE:

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE:

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE:

MR. SYMMES:

MS. STEPHENSON

MR. SCHORLE:

a, where the road goes fairly close to, to the

river in that one spot.

:Excuse me, freeze that picture.

Uh... I don't know if I can. Where?

:Marijean Stephenson from Marion.

Uh. . . Wait a minute, I don't know if I can.

I don't see any a...

Rewind?

Well, I can rewind it, but I don't see any

pause on here. I don't see any pause on here.

I rewound... Uh... Okay, Jeff, you had...

Well, we're interested in that orange colored

stuff going into the water...

Okay, yeah I, I knew when she said that, that,

that's what a...

Yeah, is that leachate?

No, that would be...

Iron?

We've looked at that, that's some iron,

probably bacteria acting on a...

Isn't that called leachate though?

:How, how do you know?

Uh. . . We'd there's, there's this one report

in, that's in the Repository now about, where

they took a couple of soil sediment samples


(765) 662-0015 ' Fax (765) 662-8340 25

1 and one ground water sample and, and looked at

2 it...

3 MS. STEPHENSON:When was that done?

4 MR. SCHORLE: Uh... I want to say, probably back in 1990,

5 v 91, when...

6 MS. STEPHENSON:Seven years ago?

7 MR. SCHORLE: Uh... Some, somewhere around that period of

8 time, yeah.

9 MS. STEPHENSON:So, there's no recent, the most recent that

10 you've done of any. . . and you did two sediment

11 samples back in 1990 and you're saying that,

12 that's not, not leachate, that's, that's fine?

13 MR. SCHORLE: Uh. . . Okay. I did not walk in, into that

14 area today to see, see whether... conditions

15 were similar to what they were several years

16 ago. Uh. . . All I, as I say, I... This is the

17 first time I've seen the video and be able to

18 see it up close the, the a, monitor on my

19 camera is black and white and I couldn't tell.

20 I really can't tell too much.

21 MS. STEPHENSON:Yeah.

22 MR. SCHORLE: Now, this is a, I went down the other side of,

23 I don't know if it's still the frozen food

24 plant over there or what. Uh... And walked

25 back down to the river on the, the other side

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MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

of it, so I could a, I was hoping to be able

to show the rip rap, which you can just see a

little bit through here. But the vegetation

is pretty thick back in there.

Question.

Yes.

Dorothy Alabach. I'd like to know since this

dates back so far and a... Why is it that the

EPA is allowed to call this a landfill, where

technically it does not have a double liner

or leachate collection system or anything that

technically in engineering describes a

landfill?

Uh... Okay...

Tough question.

The, the site is called a dump.

No, I mean according to the printed matter

here that I have picked up on remediation,

that they mailed to me, yes. It was called

Marion Bragg Landfill and I think Valdes

Adamkus ought to reassess this kind of printed

battle (tic), matter, sorry. And get it

accurate, because if it is not a engineered

landfill it does not have protection under a

landfill engineering.

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MS. ALABACH:

MR. SCHORLE:

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

Well a, I don't, I mean I wrote this, I don't

remember using the, the term. I, I usually

try to be very careful about calling this a

landfill.

Would you, would you a...

Can you point out where it's, calls it...

Well, it's all over... in the front, it's

inside...

Oh, okay. Yeah, the contractor did that one.

Uh, but it...

Mr. Schorle, I am the person that wrote a six

page letter to Valdes Adamkus on the landfill

in Lafayette and sent it to Browner at US EPA

and sent it nationwide to very many places, on

what a mess the landfill is in Lafayette. I

was at a... IDEM and state hearings,

commissions with the owner of the Lafayette

landfill, knew him well, and debated in state

hearings about how it was done, who did it,

who was liable, who was not liable, and now on

the tax that is supposed to be dumped on

people to clean it up. When RICO law,

Racketeering Influenced Corrupt Organizational

law, white collar criminal prosecution should

have been initiated for immediate cleanup.

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MS. ALABACH:

MR. SCHORLE;

MS. ALABACH:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

That' s what should have been done in that

place. Four County landfill, I sat in Federal

Court in South Bend. I've gone to Seven

Circuit Court with the Four County people. I

am well aware of Senate Bill 566 that sat at

IDEM, which was supposed to be a public agency

and is not operating as one today. So,

accuracy... I'm looking for all the time. If

you would mention this to Valdes Adamkus, I

would appreciate it, because I don't think you

should use that term.

Well, I, that one slipped by me. I, I don't

think I used it in the text. And a. . . I

probably should also mention that Valdes

Adamkus is no longer at Region Five.

Urn-hum (affirmative). Where is he now?

He's retired now. They have not...

Lithowania helping there?

I don't know.

Who's regional director now?

The, there's an acting regional administrator,

that's Dave Ullrich.

Who is that?

Dave Ullrich.

I beg your pardon?

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MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. EMERIC:

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

MS. EMERIC:

MR. SCHORLE

MS. ALABACH

MR. SCHORLE

Dave Ullrich.

How do you spell that?

U-L-L-R-I-C-H.

Is he related at all to Alrich (phonetic)

Chemicals?

No, it's U-L-L, not A-L.

U-L.

Yeah, U-L-L-R-I-C-H.

He was the deputy regional administrator.

Yeah, he was the deputy, there were two deputy

regional administrators.

Wait a minute, I can't hear. I'm sorry, what?

There were two deputy regional administrators

under Valdes Adamkus.

Valdes Adamkus.

And then a, when he retired a... they've

temporarily made Dave Ullrich the a, acting...

Is he a final appointment or is he temporary.

No, he's acting.

Temporary.

Yeah.

Okay. Thank you.

Uh. . . It, it's difficult to say whether he'll

get it or not. Those are... that particular

job is somewhat political too.

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MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

Boy, is it ever. Thank you.

[Refers to Video Presentation]

This is almost... You can see a little bit of

the a, the rip rap that we put on the, the

southern about 1,000 to 1,500 feet of a, of

the, of the a landfill. . . or the, the river

bank. This is just panning back along that a,

the opposite river bank. The a... Are there

any further questions on pretty much what

we've done before a... with the remedial

action.

Well, I've got one. Jeff Symmes. Uh... Just

for one company, they haul 33,000 drums of

hazardous waste to that landfill or dump,

excuse me, by one company... and they dumped

it on the ground and mixed it in with the

soil, is that correct?

There were reports in the a, I think from a,

Indy State, Indiana State Board of Health,

that a... This possibility, I, I think it was,

might have, based upon a statement made by

somebody when they were talking to somebody

else.

From the company though? So, this is what.

the, what is it, the 103-C report came, this

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MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

is where the information came from?

Uh... I, I believe that was... uh... I mean,

it's been a long time since I looked at any of

the PRP information. I believe that was based

upon a statement somebody made when they were

talking to somebody at the, with the Indiana

State Board of Health.

Has all the potential responsible parties

applied with the law and identified their

waste streams, the amounts of waste, and if

they haven't are they required to?

We. . . The. . . parties that we were able to

identify as possibly being associated with

this site, were sent 104-E requests. Uh...

Back in a, well mostly back in the, in, in

the middle or...

Early "80's or...

...late "80's. There were some sent out, I

think after that. Uh. . . When you. . . In those

days if you requested that kind of information

from a company a lot of times they didn't have

the records anymore, because they weren't

required to a, maintain records. So...

So, then...

. . .you don't know, you never know, in those


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MR. SCHORLE

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MR. SCHORLE:

MR. SYMMES:

days how, exactly what it went into.

Well, then we can't sit here and say that so

much waste is at one million point one cubic

yards of waste is in that fill, because that

one company dumped that much waste.

The 1, the 1.1 million yards is not based upon

those kinds of records, that's based upon a. . .

that estimate is based upon the size of the«•

landfill height, uh... and things like that.

Well, let's just say we stacked 33,000 drums

in there, that's gonna fill the whole space

up. All these companies, that was practice

back then. Also, trenching was a practice

that was used by the Marion Bragg Dump,

correct?

I don't know what practices they used. It was

my understanding it was called the dump

because they just dumped there. I don't know

that they, I don't know that they trenched...

because it, it was pretty much, from the

quarry operations, it was pretty much taken

down, probably close to the a, water table.

But no one really can find, that you could

find the records with the waste, and they said

they don't have any record about...


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MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

Well, Bragg did not have any records.

The, the companies don't keep the purchasing

documents and records such as that?

Uh. . . Most companies, at least with regard to

those type of things, the best I can figure

out, only have to keep them for a certain

length of time. Now under, I think some of

the, the environmental laws that have gone in

since then, they, they probably have to keep

those kind of records longer now than they

used to.

But couldn't you go into a company and say,

today you have -X- amount of waste, and

everyday, and let' s say a summary, 10 years

ago you would only have had 80% of the, you

know, 10% less business. So, you're using -X-

amount of wastes and this is what you dump in

the dump, is this correct? Couldn't you go...

You could, you could make the estimates based

on those figures.

Okay, that wasn't done during the remedial

investigation?

No.

So, there was no attempt to identify the

amounts and quantities buried at the site?


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MR. SCHORLE

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MR. SCHORLE

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MR. SCHORLE

Not beyond what the estimate was made on what

you have there.

So, basically the whole thing's just an

estimate, guesstimate, let's put it that way?

Yeah.

Scientific guess?

Well, it's a... I mean, you can, you can take

a plot of land and know the height... uh... I

mean, you... the height of the certain,

certain spot, you know... you could, you have

to estimate where the bottom might be, of, of

the waste disposal area. And by going around

different points and kind of... marking these

off into, in small sections, you can calculate

a volume.

You just don't know what's there, that's my

point?

Yeah, you really don't, you don't know, yeah.

So, it's just a guessing game at this point:

until the contamination shows up and we have

to take further actions.

Well, if, if a... those drums were all dumped

on the ground, or most of them, uh. . . the

contamination is, is pretty much free to a,

move around right now. And then it has been

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MR. SCHORLE

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MR. SCHORLE

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MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

for years. I mean a...

The, the monitoring wells that you took out

were contaminated, is that correct?

The mon, the... Well, these wells show some

contamination along the...

I'm saying, the ones that you closed were

contaminated?

Uh. . . Yeah, and a, and the reason they were

taken out was because a number of those were,

were installed directly through some wastes.

So, they weren't relocated right next to where

those contaminated wells were?

Well... Most, a number of those wells were

along the perimeter of the landfill and that's

where we've got wells now.

Are there any offsite wells in the upper

aquifer being sampled?

Yes, there's one up near where a. . . where the,

the bend is on, what is it, Central Avenue?

And then there's one a... along the south

boundary of the site a... just a little bit

north of a, the offsite pond.

Is it, is it in the flow or is it in the

opposite direction of the flow?

No, no, the flow. . . the flow. . . These are

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MR. SCHORLE:

MS. EMERIC:

what, the two wells that we treat as

background wells and they1 re in a, the flow

pretty much at that site is the north, and a,

you get some swing over to the east because of

the river being there and these wells are

pretty much on the south side of the a, of the

site. Mary, yeah, you were going...

MS. STEPHENSON:Is this, I've got a number of questions, is

this the time to ask them?

Uh... Yeah...

Are you making them as a, were you wanting an

answer to your questions?

MR. SCHORLE: Well, these, yeah, she's just stating these

questions, yeah. Jeff, if... Just a minute.

If you've got the, the one a... wells nine and

ten will be the a...

The offsite wells?

Uh... It'd be background wells, yeah.

What's background mean?

MR. SCHORLE: Generally, a background well is put in an

area, in a spot where we believe there

shouldn't be any contamination from, from that

site. And it's to tell us what the water is

like that, that's coming onto the site.

Anything that's above that is good, that's

MR. SYMMES:

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MR. SYMMES:

MR. SYMMES

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1 what you've saying, this well here makes, sets

2 the precedence for all the other wells?

3 MR. SCHORLE: You, you make some judgements on, based on

4 that. . . but when we... in Superf und we do

5 things a little bit different than, than...

6 I 'm a little bit more familiar with a,

7 something that goes on over in Illinois.

8 Uh. . . They look for land, for landfills as far

9 as state permitting people go, they look for

10 increases over background. Uh... And whereas

11 when we do a risk assessment, we don't do a

12 risk assessment on what has been added to the

13 water, we take what's in the water and do a

14 risk assessment on that, because I mean, if

15 you're gonna use water from that area or that

16 general area, it's gonna be based on those

17 kinds of, I mean you' re gonna be exposed to

18 those, those concentrations. I mean, you're

19 not gonna be able to subtract off the

20 background. So a... But if we know that

21 something is coming onto a site uh... I mean,

22 this particular, one site I got over in

23 Illinois, has another site up gradient from

24 it. So, we have a difficult time there

25 determining necessarily what's coming from

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1 which one. But a, I mean both of them are

2 being a, addressed. Okay, Ms...

3 MS. STEPHENSON:Are you sure? I'm Maryjean Stephenson, Marion.

4 Urn... I'm curious as to why EPA hasn't done

5 fish and sediment bioassay studies as part of

6 their interim remedy for the onsite pond and

7 river, in order to detect bioaccumulations of

8 toxins either in aquatic life, wildlife, or

9 human consumption, to determine if a risk is

10 present. Why haven't you done this?

11 MR. SCHORLE: There was one... was one biologically based

12 study done on the river. Uh... Several years

13 ago. As far as doing one on the, on the, on

14 the pond, the levels of contaminant in, in

15 that on, particularly the onsite pond, uh...

16 did not a, were not high enough to a, to

17 indicate that, that there would be a problem

18 on...

19 MS. STEPHENSON:What are you basing your evidence on when you

20 make that sort of statement.

21 MR. SCHORLE: The levels of contamination that are in that

22 onsite pond.

23 MS. STEPHENSON:From recent...

24 MR. SCHORLE: Well, yeah, we have the, the data from every,

25 every six months.


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From fish studies on the onsite pond?

No, there have not been fish studies on

this...

Okay. Why don't you do fish studies?

We just... It was felt that it wasn't

necessary because of the a...

Because of the cost?

No, because of the level of contamination that

was in the a, in the water there. Uh...

But, you know, you haven't done fish studies,

you have done sediment studies on these...

There were sedi, there were some sediment...

You did two sediment studies seven years ago.

Why haven't you done more?

Uh. . . Mainly based upon the results that

showed up there.

:That' s no excuse, you know. U.S. Fish and

Wild, Wildlife in comments to the Consent

Decree wanted to do fish and um... sediment

studies as part of this Interim Remedy and

they were thrown out. Those, those

suggestions were thrown out, thanks to EPA and

the Department of Justice. And I say shame on

you, why don't you do it? It doesn't cost

that much. Then if... There's lots of people

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1 that fish in the river. There's, from the

2 paper you're allowing that the owner of the

3 site, one of the PRP's to come site and fish

4 in the pond. Why don't you, why don't you

5 have some regard for, for um... wildlife and

6 humans in this case, the humans that eat the

7 fish, the humans that, that enjoy the river.

8 There's lots of people around here that do and«

9 further upstream the reservoir...

10 MR. SCHORLE: Well, the, the studies that we have done in,

11 in those areas have not indicated that a,

12 that... there's, there...

13 MR. STEPHENSON:That's no excuse. You did two sediment

14 studies. Back during the Remedial

15 Investigation.

16 MR. SCHORLE: No, there were some... The first round I

17 think, of a. . . of sampling that was done after

18 the new walls were put in... Actually it was

19 either three months or six months after that

20 a, there were some sediment samples taken from

21 the river. The reason we didn't do it the

22 first time is a, the river was flowing pretty

23 a, pretty rapidly and we couldn11 get the

24 sediment samples. The, there were some

25 sediment samples taken from the pond to a, a,

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either during that first sampling period or in

the following one. And these would be in the

a, in the reports that are in the Repository.

I'd like to add one thing, Bernie. I would

like to have a letter from the EPA telling me

why the Justice Department obstructed these

comments from being in this... consent

agreement. I want to know why they blocked

this, why the Justice Department in Washington

went to the Fish and Wildlife and forced these

people to withdraw the comments. I want that

in writing. I know it happened.

Uh... Yeah, uh...

Well, why did it happen? This was holding up

the, the order, consent order. Nothing could

be done until this was thrown out, so you

people all got together and had the Justice

Department throw this thing out, who had the

authority. I want it in writing why. Who,

when and where, I want the whole thing, I want

all the documents.

I'd like to add something to that also. The

Justice Department, EPA, and IDEM are all tax

supported public agencies. The citizens


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1 should have a right to spend their tax money

2 on whatever study they want. If it's lab

3 tests, if it's U.S.E. . . or a. . . Fish and

4 Wildlife. I sat in the Southbend Federal

5 Court with the Four County Landfill. The fish

6 and wildlife study on that landfill was so

7 important it was major to that case and what

8 happened, which I took at least ten of these

9 legal pads full of information, I was there

10 . everyday. The fellow that testified wound up

11 getting sent somewhere else in the country and

12 he sent all his information to his loving PhD

13 professor from Purdue in Lafayette and then

14 she turned around and wad paid to testify in

15 favor of the Four County Landfill, polluters,

16 owners of the dump and the PRP's. Now, that's

17 justice? When the court, the judge set a fine

18 on them for 2 million dollars, it was EPA that

19 put in their uh... report that the newspapers

20 get from EPA, and I happen to get it. They

21 took PR credit for the biggest fine ever.

22 That fine was never collected and I got in an

23 argument with the lawyer that was going to

24 write it off for the PRP's in the Justice

25 Department, I had to call the attorney that


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1 represented the Justice Department and the EPA

2 at the trials and have him talk to the fella,

3 the attorney that was going to write off the

4 fine for the corporation, and I got a letter

5 in writing from him that it would not be done.

6 When I checked back later with the victims,

7 babysitting that toxic waste dump, it was

8 done, and that case is still stalled in the

9 courts. The PRP's are running it. The people

10 are not getting all the information. The

11 judge said the PRP's had to give those people

12 the information, they have been shut out of

13 the system and IDEM has done a wonderful job

14 shutting them out too and so has EPA. Now,

15 justice is not justice when somebody's up

16 there playing uh. . . we rule and you people are

17 unimportant, cause we the people are the ones

18 that pay for everything in this country. We

19 have a right to public health, safety, and

20 environment, we have the right to prosecute

21 white collar criminals, and by God it's gonna

22 be done if they keep treating the public as

23 they have been doing, with no respect and they

24 keep citing new landfills, new victims all the

25 time. I've spent 30 almost 40 years in the


(765) 662-0015 * Fax (765) 662-8340

1 trenches politically on all issues, not just

2 the environment. I've sat in the courts with

3 the victims and it's outrageous. So, what

4 he's saying I suggest you send him that

5 information documentation. These people

6 around this dump have that right and public

7 agencies are supposed to serve the public not

8 corporations, not politicians, not PhD's,*

9 CEO's, VIP's, or BA's, MA's, PhD's, and LLD's

10 that PR and BS the public. We're tired of it.

11 We've paid and paid and paid, now we have kids

12 growing up, she's worried about people eating

13 fish that is contaminated. We want those

14 tests, we want the results and we want labs we

15 can trust. If we have to have split samples

16 to, to match them to see that they do the job

17 they're supposed to do. Uh... The money is

18 astronomical, the profits are astronomical,

19 almost as big as drug selling in the United

20 States, so is toxic waste. It's got to be

21 more performance by public servants and

22 honesty and integrity and ethics and

23 accountability. Thank you.

24 MS STEPHENSON: I'm concerned too, about the low dose urn...

25 long term accumulation of toxins... Chat


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1 you're picking up in these monitoring wells

2 and perhaps in the river and I think that fish

3 studies and sediment studies would be an

4 excellent place to a, to look at that. I'm

5 concerned about the affect on human life.

6 MS. SCHORLE: [Refers to 0-H Table 1, September ^96] The

7 a. . . As far as what a... Now this is just the

8 a... Well, I guess, I don't know if you can

9 get it... This table is, is it causal in that

10 a, a. . . the proposed plan, but this, this

11 would be the result, the most recent results

12 of it. . . that we have so far. And this was

13 September of "96 for, for the river samples

14 and the a, the two ponds. And as you can see

15 the... the organic' s are not showing up in the

16 river. The arsenic is a, not showing up in

17 the river. Uh. . . As I pointed out before,

18 the onsite pond is, does contain more

19 contaminants uh... or a little higher level of

20 contamination than, than the offsite pond,

21 which can show up, for instance in the sodium

22 where it's around eight, almost 19,000 uh. . .

23 milligrams per liter, whereas in the offsite

24 pond it's a, around 12,000 uh... in parts per

25 million. So, we are picking up something uh,

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as to ground, when groundwater flows from one

of those ponds really to the other. But a, as

far as the river goes uh. . . your sodium

concentrations will vary from one sampling

event to the other and, and for instance,

uh. . . If we were to sample after there had

been a lot of snowfall and so forth, we'd

probably pick up a fair amount of sodium in

the river.

Is that from the sludge?

Pardon?

Is that from the sludge, the sodium?

The sodium that's in the what, in the river?

Yeah, is it leaching from the sludge?

Uh. . . Well, this uh. . . I mean this, SW-5 is

the up, upstream uh... location and it's

essentially... there's, there's... in this

case there's a little bit of, of change as you

go downstream, but, but you got a... at SW-5

you've got almost 23,000 parts per million of

sodium in the river at that sampling period.

Was there any disposal done on up the stream

by the veterans home, they never dump sludge

or anything from that facility?

No. . . That I. . . that I don't know. I mean,

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we're.looking at...

That site.

This site and what, what affects the, what

affect there is on the river. If you look, if

you look in the, in the a... uh... in the a,

Repository at the, at the reports for the

various sampling events, you'll see the sodium

in the river will vary from one, one sampling

event to the other and a...

So, it fluctuates quite a bit?

Yeah. But, but the, the upstream one also

fluctuates. And we'11, we'11 actually, and

we'll actually see some increases in sodium in

the background well MB-10, which is out near

the road, which could very well be from

salting the roads.

Is this a clean water violation?

The sodium that's in the river?

Yeah.

Uh. . . I don't know if it's a clean water

violation a... I think people all over, all

over the snow, all over the snowbelt still

apply salt to the roads.

Is there a amount that you can have? I mean,

why are they even on there if there's no

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standard set for sodium then why even have it

on there?

There's uh...

I don't think it's really a concern.

Well, the reason for putting sodium on here is

that one is, I mean once it gets in the river

it, or in the water, it' s gonna stay in the

water and move with the water. I mean, somes

of these things will absorb onto the soils and

get retarded in their movement, but sodium and

chloride are two things that are, are fairly

soluble and a, once they come in contact with

water are generally going to a, a, move with

the water.

But isn't PCB's and dioxin more danger to the

environment, I'd rather see that tested than I

would sodium and magnesium.

Well, these are not all the things that they

tested for, I just, what I did try to do with

this table is uh. . . I took mostly the, the

organic's that were mentioned in the, in the

first record of decision, as being substance

uh. . . substances that were of, of some concern

and arsenic was also mentioned in there. And

then some of these I. . . manganese. . .

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Manganese is a, a substance that you can pick

up from the soil and so forth. Uh. . . Because

of different changes in the chemistry of the

water. Sometimes you'll soluablize manganese

that way. Uh... Ammonia nitrogen was also

mentioned in the, in the first record of

decision as a substance of concern. And a,

well COD then... kind of looks to a bunch of

things, so that' s the reason it was put on.

Now, the results for all of the substances are

in the, in those reports in, in the

Repository.

Are new testings in the new boxes?

Yeah. Uh. . . But if you look at this, this

chart is in, in the proposed plan, I, I think

it was after this or a, that I put out the

proposed plan, I actually did go through and

make these charts for all the a, sampling

periods, not just in the proposed plan all I

did was put in the first two to kind of show

what it was at the start of the sampling and

then the last four to show where, where we are

today.

So, when did you decide that this didn't need

to be on the Superfund list? When did that

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all come about?

That hasn't been, it's on the Superfund list.

I know, but you1 re gonna take it off. If

you're gonna put it on the state program, the

way I understand it...

No, no, no...

You're just gonna take it off?

No... Uh...v.

If they do away with Superfund so... what are

we gonna do then?

It's what? if they do, I don't know. What, I

mean if they do away with Superfund then...

We're all screwed.

Well, I, I don't know what, what might happen

if it's like that.

What about RICO, white collar criminal

prosecution replacing Superfund and a citizen

constitutional ombudsman to begin that

prosecution for a, criminal behavior of

threatening toxic waste to the public

environment and health?

That a...

You see, we can't make our opinions known

because these hearings in Washington on

Superfund are being held in secrecy. They


(7651 662-0015 * Fax {7651 662-8340 51

1 don't want to have any public comments, there

2 are not going to be any public hearings on

3 Superfund. Can you answer that question why

4 they're not...

5 MR. SCHORLE: I, I am not involved with the politicians in

6 Washington.

7 MR. SYMMES: I've got one more thing. So, when did, did

8 you personally decide this site was not, not

9 bad? When did you decide it wasn't a bad

10 site?

11 MR. SCHORLE: Well, when, as we accumulated this data and

12 looked at the data and saw the effects upon

13 the river...

14 MR. SYMMES: This was in "96?

15 MR. SCHORLE: This sample, yeah.

16 MR. SYMMES: I want to read something for the record.

17 COURT REPORTER:Excuse me, I need to change tapes if you're

18 going to read something.

19 [Off Record]

20 COURT REPORTER:Go ahead, thank you.

21 [Back on Record]

22 MR. SYMMES: This is a letter saying, dated December 6,

23 1989, from a Larry Studebacher (phonetic).

24 It's toward the end of the, just before the

25 summary. It says, "although the current action

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1 is termed as an internal remedial action, and

2 the CD and ROD, Mr. Schorle stated October 25,

3 1989, an interim is a poor choice of words.

4 He stated that in his opinion (inaudible)

5 constitutes the final action. This casual

6 approach from the EPA site management is

7 further reflected by Mr. Schorle's statement

8 in the February, 1989 meeting in Chicago. The

9 fence which we put up. The fence is only

10 there to hold up the signs. They're there in

11 response to discuss about whether the site

12 needs a taller fence. Mr. Schorle told me

13 that if the state has a problem with Marion

14 Bragg Dump they'll have a problem with

15 Tippecanoe, because they didn't think

16 Tippecanoe was a bad site either. This memo

17 may help to prelude some of these same

18 problems at the Tippecanoe site. The state

19 also has the responsibility there to implement

20 the best possible data collection system to

21 accurately interpret site conditions prior to

22 commenting or potential remedial actions."

23 Now... ^89, let's see, how long is that, eight

24 years ago? You pretty much made up your mind

25 eight years ago what was going to happen.

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Okay, number, number one... Uh... I would not,

I, I may have said that interim was a poor

selection of words, because to me interim, it

applies some kind of temporariness. I...

That means before there was even a, an

investigation, you were ready to close it out.

No, I... I would have said that interim was a

poor choice of words, because what we were

doing was a component of the total remedy for

the site.

But you believed that it wasn't a bad site...

in 1989?

I don't, I don't know if a... I don't, I can't

comment on, on something somebody claims I

said that many years ago.

Well, it's a, a official government document.

I, I can't... I can't... Huh?

It's an official government document.

What, what...

They were sent to Regi Baker (sic) , Gabriel

Haller (sic) and Red Hobber (sic) .

Who?

Regi Baker, Gabriel...

No, no, no... The let, the letter you're

reading from?


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MR. VERMILLION

Oh, it's from Larry Studebacher...

To who?

:From IDEM.

From IDEM.

Larry Studebacher of IDEM?

:It was from a...

Larry Studebacher, Chief Technical Section, to

Doug Montgomery, Technical Support Section ats

IDEM. It's the EPA, EPA management, Marion

Bragg Dump Site, Marion, Indiana, December the

6th, 1989. And a, you know how I feel about

Tippecanoe, I'm not gonna bring that up, but

my point is these people have not had a

thorough investigation. This EPA group has

been manipulated by the PRP's, by the city, by

the federal government, it's corrupt and I

want it investigated. I want this whole damn

thing investigated before it's over.

Uh. . .

We'll take one more question, after this we'll

start. Go ahead.

I just... wanted to put the a... results for

a... the last of the uh... This is almost a,

no, that's 1995. . .

:I have a question.

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1 MR. SCHORLE: Yes.

2 MR. VERMILLION:Harold Vermillion1 s my name, I live at 3513

3 Central Avenue, about a half a mile from the

4 dump site. Um. . . I'm, I've been concerned

5 about my water for a long time. I wish they'd

6 run the city water up to me, so I could get

7 off of it. It a, does have a brackish odor to

8 it. Um... Has the water table in there, has

9 it been tested for any of these things? I'm

10 glad I live upstream instead of downstream.

11 MR. SCHORLE: You're, you're upstream of the, of the site?

12 MR. VERMILLIONrYeah, I... Well, did you test my water for all

13 this stuff?

14 MR. SYMMES: You can request that they...

15 MR. SCHORLE: Uh... Probably not. If, if you're upstream.

16 MR. VERMILLION:But a, the water seeping into, to my water vein

17 is bound, it could get to me you know, even if

18 it is upstream...

19 MR. SCHORLE: Uh... Okay, we...

20 MR. VERMILLION:! am concerned, I really am. I wish they would

21 put in city water then I'd forget it.

22 MR. SCHORLE: Yeah.

23 MR. VERMILLION:But also, uh... the last oh, I don't know how

24 many years ago, the rest of that gravel pit

25 there to the, to the a, a south of the dump

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1 site, clear on down, there's one house between

2 me and, and the end of the gravel pit. A few

3 years ago there was Waste Management I believe

4 it was, they would come out after dark at

5 11:00, 12:00 and go in there and dump stuff

6 in the south end of that thing at night.

7 Never in the daytime.

8 MR. SCHORLE: The south end of... This is the south end of

9

10 MR. VERMILLION:At the gravel pit, clear down about a half a

11 mile . . .

12 MR. SCHORLE: You're, you're talking about what used to be

13 (inaudible)?

14 MR. VERMILLION:No, on south of that yet.

15 MR. SCHORLE: Oh, oh, okay.

16 MR. VERMILLION:Clear down to the very end.

17 MR. SCHORLE: Okay, now....

18 MR. VERMILLION:Someone was dumping in there...

19 MR. SCHORLE: Okay, I, I think I know... You're... Okay, if

20 you go south from the site eventually there's

21 a bridge down there, what street is that?

22 Uh... 38th Street. You're talking about down

23 near 38th Street?

24 MS. STEPHENSON:38th Street.

25 MR. VERMILLION:! live, I live up the, up the hill from there,


(765) 662-0015 * Fax (765) 662-8340 57

1 up from 38th Street.

2 MR. SCHORLE: Yeah, but, but you're talking about dumping

3 going on down near 38th Street?

4 MR. VERMILLION:NO.

5 MR. SCHORLE: Oh, okay.

6 MR. VERMILLION:No.

7 MR. SCHORLE: Farther, farther north?

8 MR. VERMILLION:The original gravel pit came to that farm house

9 there, that's next door to me. And a... the

10 thing's all locked up, the gates locked up and

11 somebody used to come in there. They always

12 come in about 11:00, 12:00 at night and dump.

13 MR. SYMMES: Who'd dump?

14 MR. VERMILLION:Huh?

15 MR. SYMMES: Did you notice the license plates by any

16 chance? Did you happen to notice Illinois

17 license plates?

18 MR. VERMILLION:Urn... The thing was at that time I didn't know

19 anything was going on. In all this other

20 stuff, I have never been to a meeting like

21 this in all these PDQ' s and ABC1 s, I don't

22 understand.

23 MR. SYMMES: It's mind boggling.

24 MR. VERMILLIONrBut I do understand one thing, that I'm

25 concerned about my water, I'm concerned about


(765) 662-0015 * fax (7651 662-8340

1 my neighborhood, I'm concerned about all the

2 folks along there. And Marijean's across the

3 river, she's a... concerned about it too. And

4 urn. . . I feel like that we were down there

5 just, no more than I know about it, covering

6 that thing up with a lot of grass stuff and

7 then everything leaking out the bottom into

8 the river. It makes us, it just seems lik>^9 it's stupid to me that we've wasted, I don't

10 know who paid for it, but probably several

11 million dollars.

12 MS. ALABACH: We did.

13 MR. VERMILLION:Who?

14 MS. ALABACH: We did, we paid for everything.

15 MR. SCHORLE: Which what, which, which record are you

16 talking about?

17 MR. VERMILLION:Mr. Bragg, did he have to pay for the dump

18 site?

19 MR. SCHORLE: No, he was named a potentially responsible

20 party, but he did not participate in the...

21 the remedial design, remedial uh... action was

22 uh. . . Since we a, well 75% or actually a

23 little bit more than that, paid for by the a,

24 these generators, defendants. There was a

25 mixed funding settlement and a, EPA paid for

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1 25% of it.

2 MS. STEPHENSON: I've got a question. Urn... Why are you

3 allowing a PRP, since we're talking about

4 PRP's, to profit from recreational benefits on

5 this site? I thought PRP's are not supposed

6 to profit at all.

7 MR. SCHORLE: Uh... Are you talking about the site owner?

8 MS. STEPHENSON:Yes.

9 MR. SCHORLE: How, how's he profiting?

10 MS. STEPHENSON:! would, I would think that recreational

11 benefits is a monetary profit.

12 MR. SCHORLE: Well, he is, he is the site owner. He, he

13 owns the property. I, I have not checked if

14 he's been paying taxes, whether anybody has

15 done anything about that or not.

16 MS. STEPHENSON:Then why don't you let everybody fish?

17 MR. SCHORLE: As a site, as a site owner we can't take the

18 property away from him.

19 MS. STEPHENSON:Why are you allowing him to fish on the site?

20 MR. SCHORLE: He owns the property.

21 MR. SYMMES: It's illegal.

22 MS. STEPHENSON:He'S also a PRP.

23 MR. SCHORLE: Yes.

24 MR. SYMMES: Where profit ties from a Superfund site. At

25 least for now it is, okay, while this is going

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MR. SCHORLE:

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE:

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

on.

It's not the only place in the world to fish,

I mean...

I know that. But a... We, we would...

Is this an advertisement?

We would get into, I mean there have been

talks... I mean, I don't, I don't follow all

the politics involved with... with EPA and,

and the, and the Superfund program, but uh...

I have heard the term "takings" uh. . . and this

is a, a serious problem for, for some people

and... generally uh... I mean, we'd, if we

felt that it was detrimental to his health to

do that, we would try to stop him.

You said you wouldn't eat the fish that are

there.

I won't uh. . . I, I don't... I try to avoid

drinking things with Nutrisweet in it, because

I don1t trust that, that has been tested

properly.

Well, I agree with you there Bernie.

So... I mean, it's a... a, I just, I just

probably would feel a little bit uncomfortable

with it. I...

Would you let the public come in there and

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MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

fish? Is this gonna become a public fishing

hole?

Not as far as I know.

There are deed restrictions, right?

There are, there are deed, there are deed

restrictions on it, but I don' t think they

would necessarily stop that.

Well, he took people with him.

Well, he probably does, his friends come in

there with him.

Yeah.

I wouldn't doubt it.

Well, he's profitizing from this site, which

is illegal and EPA's letting him do it.

Uh. . . I can' t, I can' t make a j udgement on

whether it's illegal or not, I'm not a lawyer.

Well, you have legal counsel that can answer

that question along with the one about the,

Washington. I'd like to have that question

answered that... Is he profitizing by using

this site as a recreational area, with

bringing his friends and other people on the

site? I'd like to know that.

I'11 check with our, the lawyer that's

assigned to the site and see what she says.

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MR. SCHORLE

MS. EMERIC:

MS . EMERIC:

Who is the attorney assigned to this site?

Uh... Jacqueline Kline. I could think of her

last name, I couldn't think of her first name.

The information sheet that was handed out to

you, the 800 number on there, if you want to

speak directly to her call the 800 number and

ask for Jacqueline Kline directly.

••*.FORMAL COMMENT PERIOD

And now I'm sorry, I'm gonna go ahead and move

into the public comment period. And for those

of you who weren't here earlier the um... this

is, this is the formal public comment, so you

can make your, you can state your comment in

the form of a question, a comment or a

question, but it's not something that we'll be

able to answer right away. And from the

comments that are made here, Responsiveness

Summary will be created after the final

decision is made. That Responsiveness Summary

will be sent to the Repository or if you'd

like a copy of it sent directly to you, let me

know, I'll mark it off on the sign in sheet

and we'll have one sent directly to your home.

And if you do not feel comfortable stating

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MS. EMERIC

MR. SYMMES

MS. EMERIC

your comment now, you can also send it to me.

The information sheet that was on the back

table has my mailing address and my e-mail

address, you can send me something

electronically or you can send something in

the mail. But just note that the comment

period ends July 28th. There was a comment

made at the very beginning to see if we could

get an extension and if that extension is

allowed there will be an ad placed in the

paper. So, if um. . . someone would like to

start.

I'd like to be noticed by mail to my residence

and the day that I receive it, I have 30 days.

I don't want this week later, just like this

time.

Okay. Depending on if we allow a 30 day

public comment period or if it's a 15 day. We

will let you know, I can send you something

directly to your house.

Do I need to make more appeal to my case,

because it's for the record that's gonna be

reviewed whether they're gonna do this, or do

I not?

Okay, we're get. . . when the public comment

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1 period starts after I answer this, if you're

2 requesting, that could be your comment, that

3 you're requesting there be an extension of 30

4 days. Then she' 11 make that comment and I

5 won't respond, and then we can move on from

6 there. Please make sure when you make your

7 comment that you state your name again so the

8 court reporter can write that down. So irv^

9 anybody would like to start you can go ahead

10 and make your comment Mr. Symmes.

11 MS. ALABACH: I'll start. Dorothy Alabach. I'm concerned

12 that this goes back also to office memorandum.

13 Uh. . . That both agencies seem to have dropped

14 the ball protecting the public. Uh. . . Over

15 and over it mentions that the inadequacies of

16 a, of getting review documents, the failure to

17 forward those documents in triplicate to the

18 state in a timely fashion. Urn... There's so

19 many criticisms here, where they're not

20 cooperating. Uh... late., to changes made to

21 the final forms of the Consent Decree and rod

22 by the U.S. EPA or Settling Defendants that

23 compromised the integrity of the cleanup.

24 Circumvented state review processes. I mean,

25 it seems to me that there has not been,

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they're not carrying the ball to represent the

public as they should. And the other comment

I'd like to make is I would like to have a

transcript or minutes of this meeting and

testimony mailed to me. Thank you.

Anyone else, go ahead.

MS. STEPHENSON:Marijean Stephenson, Marion, Indiana. Urn...

I guess my first question is that, are we

allowed one comment, is that...

MS. EMERIC: No, you can make as many as you'd like.

MS. STEPHENSON:Okay. I would also appreciate urn...transcripts

and minutes of this meeting sent to my

address. I would also like to be notified by

mail of any time extension on the comment

period. Um. . . I have some more questions and

I don't know whether to bring them up, them up

now, is that...

MR. SCHORLE: Right now we're trying to do just...

You're not going to answer anymore questions.

...the comment, the comments. Well, if we run

out of a, the comments then, we'll probably go

back to the questions.

Let everybody else make their comments and

we'll go last.

MS. STEPHENSON:Okay, I'll let somebody else.

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

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1 MS. EMERIC: And please understand that a comment does not

2 have to be just statement, it can also be in

3 the form of questions.

4 MS. STEPHENSON:That's what I thought.

5 MS. EMERIC: Yes, so you can ask your question now, he just

6 will not be able to answer your question right

7 now.

8 MR. SYMMES: Yeah, but he will after everybody's done...

9 MS. EMERIC: Right.

10 MR. SYMMES: ...and there'll still be a comment on the

11 record, so we111 wait until everybody1s done

12 and we'll take the time that's left.

13 MS. EMERIC: But if she has a question that he may not be

14 able to answer, it's probably best to state,

15 state it now, so it will be answered in the

16 Responsiveness Summary.

17 MS. STEPHENSON:Okay, definitely. Uh... For one thing uh... I

18 have. . . I was kind of surprised to see that:

19 the a, PRP's are doing the water testing and

20 um. . . from what I understand, are, are the

21 water samples, are they not being sent to the,

22 a lab determined by the PRP's? Um... And why

23 has EPA not been more active with oversight

24 and assurance of independent validation of

25 data in regards to water sampling? And a..,

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1 especially when sampling activities have been

2 carried out by Settling Defendants, the Marion

3 Bragg Generator Group? Um... I, I don't

4 understand, I, I don't understand this system.

5 Whey are you letting the polluters do their

6 own testing? I, I don't understand that.

7 MR. SYMMES: It's common practice though. Is this common

8 practice, that the polluters, it1s self,

9 regulatory self testing...

10 MS. STEPHENSON:He can't answer.

11 MR. SYMMES: ...for the PRP's, is that correct for all, all

12 sites?

13 MS. STEPHENSON:! don't understand.

14 MS. EMERIC: Bernie, would you just wait...

15 MR. SCHORLE: Okay, let's wait for the question and answer.

16 MS. EMERIC: Sorry.

17 MS. STEPHENSON:Are test results being averaged, and a, where

18 in the law does it state that you can do that?

19 How many parts per billion or whatever type of

20 level of measurement must be detected in your

21 sampling to indicate further remedial action?

22 Uh... What happens if the interim remedy or

23 final remedy, whatever it's... called, fails

24 to contain the waste on site or if the cap

25 integrity is damaged by human or natural


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MS. EMERIC:

MS. ALABACH

MS. EMERIC:

MS. ALABACH

forces? Um... Why haven't you held regular

informational public meetings about this site

or at the very least kept the public informed

about this site? Um. . . I checked the a. . .

the upstairs files today and it looked like

nothing had been added since... for, for at

least five years. We just would appreciate

what's going on. I know there's a TEGG Grant,•-.

but do we necessarily have to get a grant to

know what's going on? That's my comments now.

Does anybody else have any other comment,

questions, statement?

I'd like to make another statement.

Sure.

Uh. . . The Four County Landfill, I recommended

that the, the victims have split sampling from

two companies. One company the PRP's wanted

and the state, the other company the citizens

chose and had split sampling. That is far

more honest than it is to have the foxes there

in the henhouse, so to speak. Uh... The

citizens have the right to have lab, lab

representation, not just the PRP's. Um. . .

Their victims already, not at their own doing,

when it comes to permitting by the state, the

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MS. ALABACH

MS. EMERIC:

MR. SYMMES:

wides of politics and all the protections that

they can get, they need. And split sampling

with two labs is part of it. With locked up,

uh... what do they call it, chain of...

Custody.

Chain of custody, right. Thank you. Thank

you.

Any other comments?

I'd like to make one comment. It's about the

Superfund program. Uh... Ten years ago

Marijean and some friends of mine started

doing little environmental work and a, looking

into things and I started investigating

dumpsites around the State of Indiana and West

Virginia and Ohio. Uh. . . I have learned over

the last ten years that the government

agencies are controlled by the polluters.

They are manipulated by politicians, which

control the polluters. These corrupt

politicians are out in Washington at this

very time writing the language to let the

liability to be put on the citizens and they

won11 even have public hearings to let the

citizens participate in this crime. These

people are criminals, they have no right to be


(765) 662-0015 ' Fax (7651 662-8J40 70

1 in Washington, they are involved in one of the

2 biggest conspiracy coverups that's ever been

3 in this country. It's even ten times worse

4 than tobacco. I've worked with the FBI, I've

5 worked with the Inspector General, I've worked

6 with the General Accounting Office in

7 Washington for years and I know what' s going

8 on and we're sitting here, we're all just oh,s

9 yeah this is gonna be great, they're gonna

10 clean this up. They're not gonna clean it up.

11 They're gonna do away with over 10,000 sites

12 in this country. The State of Indiana has

13 delisted potential 1,350 sites, now I think

14 they maybe have 100 sites that they might even

15 look at. And a good example for example, is

16 the Five Coats Landfill, less than 30 miles

17 from here, that every industry in the area

18 Delco, everybody, they dumped radioactive

19 materials there, they dumped toxic chemicals,

20 they dumped potential PCB's trenches. And

21 this site is not even being looked at.

22 They're not even looking at this site. And

23 all this hazardous waste is buried there over

24 a sanitary landfill title. Howard County

25 Landfill is Five Coats Landfill, which is a

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1 sanitary landfill which was closed in 1983 by

2 Waste Management. It's nothing but a toxic

3 waste dump. And there's a site in Terre Haute

4 the same way. This is going on all over the

5 country folks. We're getting the shaft and we

6 don't even know it and our children's future

7 is being jeopardized by these criminals in

8 Washington. They need to be thrown out. And

9 I want everybody to think about when they go

10 home tonight, how, what was heard today, what

11 goes on in this country and what we're gonna

12 have to do about it. Because we're just

13 laying down and letting these people brainwash

14 us, telling everything's fine, oh, we have no

15 problems. Well, it's a big lie and until we

16 stand up and say what are you doing, like

17 we're doing tonight, we're in big trouble.

18 And these people from the EPA know what I'm

19 talking about. They have people at IDEM that,

20 you know, they've got ten sites to... can you

21 just imagine reading files, ten sites, hell,

22 they've got 15 feet of boxes of documents

23 around their desks. They don1t read this

24 stuff, they flip through it and say yeah. We

25 get their experts coming in and say, we did

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1 all this and did this and we did these tests

2 right, and they're just yeah, check, yeah,

3 yeah, yeah. . . It's a farce. And I hate to

4 sit here and these people have to do their job

5 and they1re probably doing their job, what

6 they have to do. But the people above them

7 are controlling and manipulating this country

8 and poisoning our world. So... That's m*N«

9 comment today. And I have more questions, so

10 is everybody done?

11 MS. EMERIC: Anymore comments, questions or statements?

12 MS. STEPHENSON:I, I wonder the appropriateness of a project

13 manager saying that a site is not that bad.

14 About any site that they' re responsible for.

15 Um. . . I, I'm a registered nurse and I don't

16 believe I would ever make the comment to a

17 patient I'm, who's care I'm, I'm responsible

18 for, well, they aren't really that sick. I

19 would, I, I find that. . . I find that um. . .

20 questionable about the appropriateness.

21 MS. EMERIC: If there are no comments or statements or

22 questions for the formal comment period, if

23 you'd like we can move back into a question

24 and answer session. Are there any comments

25 anyone?

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MR. SCHORLE

MS. EMERIC:

MR. SYMMES

MS. EMERIC

MR. SYMMES

What, now what... She's taping everything,

right? So, everything we've said is a

comment.

Well, there's, there's the comments that have,

have to be addressed in Responsiveness

Summary, then there's other things that are

being discussed here tonight.

There will be a transcript of, everything will

be transcribed. But what was said during the

formal comment period is what will be

addressed in the Responsiveness Summary.

That's why I said it was very important to

state even some of the questions that you

might have asked in the beginning that were

not addressed, that you might have not have

gotten an answer that you wanted, it would be

very important to state it right now so it can

be addressed in the Responsiveness Summary.

But we can also, if we get this a, transcript

in time, if they give us an extension of time,

and then we see that we need to address that

question in writing then we can do that too,

correct?

Yes. But I, I...

So, how long will it take before we get to the


(765) 662-0015 * Fax (765) 662-8340 74

1 comments? A week?

2 COURT REPORTER:! was told that it was required by the 31st of

3 July, I believe that was the date.

4 MR. SYMMES: So that's when the comment period runs out,

5 when we'll be able to get a transcript of this

6 meeting.

7 MS. STEPHENSON:No, actually the comment period runs...

8 COURT REPORTER:The 31st of July is my deadline, that's when~-».

9 I'm supposed to have it available.

10 MS. EMERIC: Comment period ends July 28th so, if you feel

11 some of your questions that you asked in the

12 beginning were not answered appropriately, if

13 you have those questions, if you had written

14 them down before you came here, you can send

15 those directly to me and I will make sure that

16 those are comments that are...

17 MR. SYMMES: I'm very happy that we got to have this type

18 of meeting. Usually we are manipulated to

19 talk for two minutes and just get a little bit

20 of space here and we can't ask questions.

21 They make it a presentation. And I really

22 appreciate this format, I'd like to see it

23 when you come to Lafayette. I don't think

24 you'd want to come to Lafayette voluntarily.

25 MS. EMERIC: And I just, I just want to address something

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MS. EMERIC

MR. SYMMES

MS. EMERIC

MR. SYMMES

MS. EMERIC

that you said about the Superfund program.

Um. .. You had asked...

It's every bit true and I am trying to prove

it, but they won't let me.

Okay. Well, you had said that there were no

public hearings that were held for the public

community to comment on, that in fact is not

true.

No, no, testimony, not comments, testimony.

There, there was a public hearing that was

held. I'm not sure how it was handled, if it

was handled as testimony, but if you call me I

will give you the person in our headquarters

office...

I'm working with Senate Subcommittee right now

on the Democrat's side and I know most every

week I get a review of what' s going on and

right now the writing and language there has

not been a hearing for public testimony on

criminal activity involving the EPA and we are

going to be doing litigation to stop that,

because they are not doing it.

Okay, there were, there were public hearings

held for community groups to go before

congress to talk about...


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MS. EMERIC

MR. SYMMES

MR. EMERIC

MR. SYMMES

MR. EMERIC

MS. ALABACH

Not the public, community groups.

Well, I would consider community groups

public, it just depends on how you consider

the public.

No they pick and choose who they want to talk,

that's exactly what they did.

Well, that, that's exactly what I was trying

to get at, is if you call me and if you'rts.

interested in doing that, I can give you the

person in headquarters name, that way you can

call and say you're interested in doing that.

My attorney sent a letter to Washington for me

to testify in front of, in front of the

committee. They refused my testimony.

I work at EPA, so maybe if you send it to me

and I forward it to headquarters, I'm just

saying, I'm just giving you a suggestion, I'm

trying to provide you another outlet. You say

you're not getting heard the way you're going

through now. This is just another outlet .

I'm not saying that something will be done.

I'm just trying to provide you with something

else.

No, what he and I are concerned about is the

public, each and every citizen, are not being


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MS. EMERIC

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

heard or listened to, and they're not being,

not testifying because there are select

groups. Even environmental groups, where one

person is giving the opinion of the group.

We' re getting into Chamber's of Commerce,

regional this and regional that. The American

people are 270 million individuals and they

have to be addressed. Their safety, their

concern, it can't be run by heads of groups.

I, I don't want to get off on a tangent about

the Superfund program, because we're really

here to talk about the Marion Bragg Dump site,

so I apologize for, I was just trying to give

you another outlet. But if you have other

questions regarding this particular site, the

Marion, please feel free to go ahead and ask

those now and Bernie can try to address them.

Why did it take 17 years for them to do

anything?

Seventeen years...

"83... They put it on the list in what, "83?

I think it would be. Yeah.

"83, "93, what's that, 14, 15 years?

We probably could have a, done something with

regard to this part of it a... a year or two

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MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

ago, but I've been busy with other sites.

Well, doesn't the law say you've got 60 days

or... you better respond or we're gonna take

action, is that the way it is?

At the end of the. . . a. . . public comment

period, then...

No, I'm talking about when you come in, you

site this location and then they have 60 dayr

to respond and if they don't respond within 60

days on a cleanup then you have the right to

come in and sue them for triple damages and

clean the site up?

Uh... You're talking about the, the

negotiations of things and so forth? Uh. . .

Okay...

The law requires that, am I correct?

Well, in a... for our DNR (sic) negotiations

uh. . . there's what they refer to as 120 day

moratorium period. There's 60 days a... for

the, the group of PRP's or in some cases it's

one PRP, to put together what they call, what

we call good faith offer. What, what they

plan... the package....

Stall tactics, what I call it.

Well, they' ve got 60 days to put together a

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MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

good faith offer. We, we provide the with a

model Consent Decree and, and a Statement of

Work. They, if they feel that they want to

negotiate toward a settlement then they, in

this a. . . good faith offer they would say,

things that they don't think are right in the,

in the Consent Decree and, and the Statement

of Work. And then we got 60 more days, if we

accept it as a, as a good faith offer, then

we've got 60 more days to negotiate to reach a

settlement on a Consent Decree. Uh...

Who1 s decision is that to say, "well this is

good faith?" Who, who does that, your boss?

Ours.

Yours?

Uh. . . Our. . . Primarily I guess the a, the RPM

and the attorney.

So, you say it's 180 days and it's...

One Hundred Twenty.

...taken 14 years, Bernie. Fifteen years, and

it's taken that long and it could have taken

180 days, the EPA could have come in and done

all this and we wouldn't have to go through

any of this, is that correct?

No, we a... I mean the, the negotiations that

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MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MS. ALABACH

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MS. EMERIC:

we did, starting in a, in the Fall of ~87,

after the, the Record of the Decision was

done, uh. . . were just for that first Record of

Decision.

So, this is for the second part?

Yeah. The only reason this one says Operable

Unit Two and Operable Unit Three is because

the, the first Record of Decision referred

them that way and I didn't want to change it.

I mean, normally it's a second Operable Unit

for consistency in language I just made it

Two.

Do you feel the public... let's look at the

broad picture, really know what's going on at

the EPA? Could you sit down and give me in 20

words about the EPA? Its programs, I'd like

to know just a few questions about how many

employees that are there? Has the workforce

been cut back? Uh...

Funding?

Yeah, funding? Do you know anything about

that or...

I don1t uh...

Just real quick, I, if we could since other

people are here for that, if you want specific


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MR. SYMMES

questions like that, I mean we can meet, we

can talk afterwards with you, but I'd really

like to stick to the Marion Bragg, just for

the other people who attended. If other

people are interested in hearing more about

EPA then we can continue with this line, but

if there are particular questions about the

site that you would like answered...

Is this the last meeting? Is there going to

be another meeting?

MR. SCHORLE: There's not another one planned. Uh.. If a,

if there are no comments made and so forth

that would change our mind with regard to

the... since we've...

MR. SYMMES: Well, I'd like someone to come public and

answer my questions about the Justice

Department interfering with the comments on

this case. I want somebody to come back in

the public and tell them what happened. I

want them to come back and have a meeting and

we'll talk just about that if you want.

MS. STEPHENSON:What's gonna happen after the comment period?

I mean, I don't think you're gonna listen to

what we say anyway.

MR. SYMMES: It's already been decided.


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MR. SCHORLE:

MR. STEPHENSON

MR. SCHORLE:

MS. STEPHENSON

MR. SCHORLE:

MS. STEPHENSON

MR. SCHORLE:

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

Well, after the comment period if there's

nothing to uh... indicate that there should be

a change in the preferred alternative, then

the Record of Decision will be issued.

:Would you um... speak in plain language what

that means?

Well, the Record of Decision would, would say

what we, the Agency has selected for the a•̂

the a...

:Final remedy?

Final remedy for the site.

:So, after the final remedy has been chosen...

um, what then?

Okay. If the final remedy is what's in the,

in this proposed plan, then the monitoring

will continue. Now, it will probably be

changed in scope, but there will be monitoring

continuing until uh...

Till it, not shows up anymore?

Till there is an in, indication that it's no

longer needed. We also, we also...

Who makes that determination, Bernie?

. . .to do. . . Just one. . . We also have to do

five year reviews on the site because of what

has taken place.

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MS. STEPHENSON

MR. SCHORLE:

MS. STEPHENSON

MR. SCHORLE:

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

:Isn't that what this is now?

Uh. . .

:A five year review?

That isn't what is on now. We are due for a

five year review. Uh... And I'll... have to

be doing, addressing that uh... as soon as I

get this proposed plan write out and a, and a

proposed plan write out for a, Tippecanoe.

So, what if we want to appeal your decision,

tell me how do we do that?

Uh. . .

Do we have to sue you and spend thousands of

dollars?

I... that you would probably have to bring up

with the attorney. I, I'm not sure what the

procedure would be.

That other question I was going to ask the

attorney, that I ask you to ask, could you put

that along with the other question? What

actions, in writing, procedures, an outline of

what types of appeals there are for this type

of case, that needs to be done and how to do

it? I think that's something that the

government is, I think entitled to public to

do if they ask. If that can come along with


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MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MR. SCHORLE

MR. SYMMES:

MS. EMERIC:

MR. SCHORLE

MS. EMERIC:

the comments, which are to be released before

the 31st, I'd appreciate it in a timely

manner.

Now... Now what we're talking about was not a

response to the comments being released before

the 31st. The Responsiveness Summary will be

released for the Record of Decision. What

we're talking about is a...

The transcript of the meeting.

Yeah, the transcript. Yeah.

When you send the transcript you can send

that.

Send what with the transcript, I'm sorry I

didn't...

A response to his, his two legal questions.

Okay, and that's not something I can guarantee

that will come with the transcript, cause

that's something, our attorney's not here and

I'm not sure if she can get to you a response

from the DOJ in the same time limit that the

transcript coming, so I don't want you to

think that it's coming now, that's something

that I would have to check with the attorney

and she's not here. But I will make sure that

your questions are forwarded to her.


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MS. ALABACH I have a question. Why are the citizens put

between somebody in the DOJ that said our

other agency can't serve us, the U.S. Fish and

Wildlife? I mean, the citizens also have to,

a right to know. Who's making these decisions

that says that we have two, three federal

agencies here and, and here's the citizens in

a squeeze box in the middle and it' s their

money paying for all three and they can't

request... In other words they're telling you,

patting you on your head like a child in

kindergarten and saying, "we know better, you

don' t have any rights to use your own money

and your own agencies for these kind of in-

depth investigations by U.S. Fish and

Wildlife." That's what they want. Now, they

have that right to demand that, not, not get

in the squeeze and treated like children.

They have a right to demand it and whoever

made that decision at the Justice Department

they should name, know who it is, why he made

it and he should be on the hot seat. If he's

not making correct decisions to protect public

health safety and the environment, he should

be prosecuted. If he's not, resigns first or

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1 fired. It's the same thing as S & L fraud,

2 HUD fraud, DOE fraud, DOD fraud, any other

3 fraud that's going on in Washington. We the

4 people are the ones that are supposed to own

5 this country, not agencies, not politicians,

6 not professors, not consultants, not law

7 firms, not any of them. It's supposed to be

8 us. And our children come first and to me,^

9 I've worked with kids for 20 years, they will

10 come first as long as my mouth works and it

11 works very well. So, I don't care what

12 agencies, what presidents, I don't care who

13 they are, attorneys, law firms, whatever else.

14 If they're ready to fight about this, I'm

15 ready and so are a lot of others. We've had

16 enough of it. It's fraud, tyranny and in

17 Washington it' s treason. So, it' s time to

18 prosecute white collar, not the mafia and the

19 drug cartels, they're not causing half as much

20 trouble in the United States as people trying

21 to get, in their own constitutional republic

22 that they pay for, equal rights, equal

23 representation and equal protection. Instead

24 we're getting usurpation of our constitutional

25 government and disenfranchisement of the


(765) 662-0015 " Fax (765) 662-8340 ° '

1 people, except in legal tokenism, which is a

2 legal meeting. Be patted on the head and said

3 now you little kids, this is what we say, your

4 big three agencies are telling you this and,

5 and we're supposed to say yes, ma'am. But we

6 don't say yes, ma'am. We said be accountable,

7 we're paying you. You are our servants we are

8 not yours. And I'm not saying you personally

9 that came here, I appreciate this meeting.

10 I'm saying, this thing has to get turned

11 around. They have shifted the burden of proof

12 onto the innocent American citizens. They

13 don't have that right and I'm very familiar

14 with the ex-E, ex-IDEM and ex-USEPA and ex-

15 Justice Department. Hubble is sitting in jail

16 yet, I think, and he was blocking all kinds of

17 a, prosecution against corporations. And good

18 old Danny Quayle was blocking for the

19 corporations any kind of rules and regulations

20 EPA was trying to put in the corporation. It

21 was Danny Quayle and Vaskin (phonetic) and

22 their council on competitiveness. So, I don't

23 care which party they are and I don't care who

24 they are, we have to have some ethics and

25 integrity in government and protection of "we


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MR. SYMMES:

MS. ALABACH

MR. SYMMES:

MR. LIKINS:

MR. SYMMES:

MR. LIKINS:

MR. SYMMES:

MR. LIKINS:

MR. SYMMES:

MS. ALABACH

the people". Thank you.

Everybody looks like they're ready to go home.

Had enough of us. We care about what we' re

doing, Bernie and we're not out here to play

games. We play hard ball.

Forty years of my time and my money and

arthritis I have paid and I want to see

somebody else paid, because I've paid enough*»i

and I'm not gonna quit. I'm gonna play worse

than hard ball. There's gonna be prosecution.

I regularly talk to Archibald Cox, they think

Campaign Finance Reform is bad, I said,

"hogwash, that's the tip of the iceberg," the

tip of it.

Who runs IDEM now? I heard you've got a new

IDEM Chief, Tony?

John Hamilton.

Lee Hamilton1s family?

I believe so.

Yeah. How handy.

I've never met the man.

I have, twice.

I have his resume and a... He was at OTA and

I'm now finding, trying to find out what his

dues (sic) were. Was he representing we the

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MR. SYMMES

MS. EMERIC

MR. SYMMES

people or the corporations. And he also was a

Baker and Daniels' attorney, which we have

trouble with Barnes and Thornberg, Baker and

Daniels, Ice Miller Donadio & Ryan the urn...

let's see, am I missing somebody? The Wells

firm, the... and I could name some more, but I

mean, I've had many years of experience with

all of them down at the legislature.

One more comment and I'll be done.

If it's about the Marion Bragg Dump site.

This is it. It is in a way, okay? I'll tie

it in. I was asked to be on the

Administrative Appeals Committee to set up new

administrative laws. There were 38 corporate

attorneys... two citizens. 38 Corporate

attorney writing the laws for IDEM, which

their clients, all their clients... were the

polluters, writing the laws for themself,

okay. And if you try to file any kind of

motion, like if we want to do this, we would

have to go through so much rigamaroll. You

can't do it as a citizen, you gotta go get an

attorney to file a complaint. Now, is this

really equal protection? Are they really

serving the public? The Marion Bragg Dump is

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1 MS. EMERIC: We still have five minutes, I mean if there

2 are other, there are other people that have

3 questions or comments. The library closes at

4 9:00, we have about five more minutes. If

5 there are none, if you'd like to speak to us

6 one on one, feel free to do that. I just want

7 to thank you for coming to the meeting and you

8 do have our cards, both our numbers, 80

9 . number you can feel free to give us a call.

10 COURT REPORTER:Off Record.

11 [Off Record]

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STATE OF INDIANA

COUNTY OF GRANT

SS: CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY

I, LaDonna G. Qatis a Notary Public in and for the

County of Grant, State of Indiana, do hereby certify:

That all portions of the above meeting was electronically

recorded and afterward reduced to typewritten form under my

direction;

That I recorded and transcribed any and all statements

made by representatives of either party hereto;

That I am not a relative or employee, attorney or counsel

of any of the parties, nor am I financially interested in this

action.

IN WITNESS THEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and

affixed my Notarial Seal this < da of

Not/ary7 Public

My Commission

County of Residence: Grant

THE OFl'ICE COURT REPORTING SERVICE301 S. Adams Street * Marion, IN 46V52

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Sign-in Sheet - Marion (Bragg) Dump SiteProposed Plan Public Meeting

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TRANSCRIPT OF 7/19/97 PUBLIC MEETING ON PROPOSED PLAN

Documents

Transcript of TRANSCRIPT OF 7/19/97 PUBLIC MEETING ON PROPOSED PLAN