VICTORIA...VICTORIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) FORTY-FOURTH PARLIAMENT THIRD SESSION (1969-70)...

VICTORIA

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

FORTY-FOURTH PARLIAMENT

THIRD SESSION (1969-70)

14tginlntiut <t!nuutil nub 14tgtalntiut Anntwblij

VOL. CCXCVII.

(From November 20, 1969 to March 4, 1970)

MELBOURNE: C. H. RIXON, GOVERNMENT PRINTER.

w4e (inuerunr His Excellency Major-General SIR ROHAN DELACOMBE, K.e.M.G., K.B.E., e.B., D.S.O., K.ST.J.

w4e 14 ieuteuuut-(inuerunr Lieutenant-General the Honorable SIR EDMUND FRANCIS HERRING, K.e.M.G.,

K.B.E., D.S.O., M.e., E.D .

Premier and Treasurer

Chief Secretary

Minister of Agriculture

. . ~The Hon. Sir Henry Bolte, K.C.M.G., M.P.

.. " Sir Arthur Rylah, K.B.E., e.M.G., E.D., M.P.

. . G. L. Chandler, e.M.G., M.L.e.

Minister of Education Attorney-General, and Minister of Immigration Minister of Public Works. . . . . . Minister of Housing, Minister of Forests, and Minister}

for Aboriginal Affairs . . . . . . . . Minister for Local Government Minister for Fuel and Power, and Minister of Mines Minister of Labour and Industry Minister of Transport Minister of Health . . . . . . * Minister of State Development, and Minister for~

Tourism .. .. .. .. .. Minister of Lands, Minister of Soldier Settlement, and

Minister for Conservation . . . . . . Minister of Water Supply ..

"

L. H. S. Thompson, M.L.C. G. O. Reid, M.P. M. V. Porter, M.P. E. R. Meagher, M.B.E.,

E.D., M.P. R. J. Hamer, E.D., M.L.C. J. e. M. Balfour, M.P. J. F. Rossiter, M.P. V. F. Wilcox, M.P. V. O. Dickie, M.L.e. J. W. Manson, M.P.

Sir William McDonald, M.P.

W. A. Borthwick, M.P.

Parliamentary Secretary of the Cabinet: Mr. J. A. Rafferty, M.P.

• Minister for Tourism from February 4, 1970.

iGist nf flrmbrrs nf 'arliamrut FORTY-FOURTH PARLIAMENT-THIRD SESSION (1969-70).

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

PRESIDENT: THE HON. R. W. GARRElT.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: THE HON. G. J. NICOL.

TEMPORARY CHAIRMEN OF COMMITTEES: THE HONORABLES A. K. BRADBURY, K. S. GROSS, G. W .. THOM, AND ARCHIBALD TODD.

MEMBER

Bradbury, A. K. Byrne, Murray ..

*Byrnes, Sir Percy Campbell, W. M. Cathie, I. R. Chandler, G. L., e.M.G. Clarke, M. A. Dickie, V. O.

tDunn, B. P ... Elliot, D. G. Fry, W. G ... Galbally, J. W., Q.e. .. Garrett, R. W., A.F.e.,

A.E.A. Gleeson, S. E. Granter, F. J. Grimwade, F. S. Gross, K. S. Hamer, R. J., E.D.

PROVINCE

North-Eastern Ballaarat North-Western East Yarra South-Eastern Boronia Northern Ballaarat North-Western Melbourne Higinbotham Melbourne North Southern

South-Western Bendigo Bendigo Western East Yarra

• Resigned, September 8, 1969.

MEMBER

Hamilton, H. M., B.D. Hewson, H. A. Houghton, W. V. Hunt, A. J ... Knight, A. W. Mansell, A. R. May, R. W ... McDonald, S. R. Merrifield, Samuel Mitchell, C. A. Nicol, G. J ... O'Connell, G. J. Swinburne, I. A. Thorn, G. W. Thompson, L. H. S. Todd, Archibald Tripovich, J. M. Walton, J. M.

t Elected, November 15, 1969.

PROVINCE

Higinbotham Gippsland Templestowe South-Eastern Melbourne West North-Western Gippsland Northern Doutta Galla Western Monash Melbourne North-Eastern South-Western Monash Melbourne West Doutta Galla Melbourne North

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

SPEAKER: THE HON. VERNON CHRISTIE. CHAIRMAN OF COMMlTI'EES : MR. L. S. REID (Until September 18, 1969) ; MR. J. D. MACDoNALD

(From September 23, 1969). TEMPORARY CHAIRMEN OF COMMIITEES : MR. CLAREY, MR. DUNSTAN, MR. A. T. EVANS, MR'

FENNESSY, MR. J. D. MACDoNALD (Until September 23,1969), MR. MITCHELL, MR. STOKES, MR. SUGGETI, SIR EDGAR TANNER, MR. TREWIN, MR. TURNBULL, MR. WHEELER, MR. WHITING, AND MR. WILTSHIRE.

LEADER OF THE LIBERAL PARTY: THE HON. SIR HENRY BOLTE, K.C.M.G. DEPUTY LEADER OF THE LIBERAL PARTY: THE HON. SIR ARTHUR RYLAH, K.B.E., C.M.G., E.D.

LEADER OF THE PARLIAMENTARY LABOR PARTY AND LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: MR. A. C. HOLDING.

DEPUTY LEADER OF THE PARLIAMENTARY LABOR PARTY AND DEPUTY LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: MR. F. N. WILKES.

LEADER OF THE COUNTRY PARTY: THE HON. G. C. Moss. DEPUTY LEADER OF THE COUNTRY PARTY: MR. B. J. EVANS.

MEMBER

Balfour, J. C. M. Billing, N. A. W., K.ST.J.

ELECTORAL DISTRICT

Narracan Heatherton Geelong Birrell, H. W.

Bloomfield, Sir John, Malvern Q.C.

Bolte, Sir Henry, H,ampden K.C.M.G.

Borthwick, W. A. Broad, H. G. Buckley, R. F. Christie, Vernon Clarey, R. A. Cochrane, L. J. Darcy, T. A. Divers, W. T. Dixon, B. J ... Doyle, 'J. J. Dunstan, R. c., D.S.O. Edmunds, C. T. Evans, A. T. Evans, B. J ... Fennessy, L. M. Floyd, W. L. Ginifer, J. J. Goble, Mrs. D. A. Hayes, G. P. Holding, A. C.

*Hyland, Sir Herbert tJenkins, Dr. H. A. Jona, Walter

tLind, A. A. C. Lovegrove, Denis Loxton, S. J. E. MacDonald, J. D, McDonald, R. S. L. McDonald, Sir William McKellar, D. K. McLaren, I. F., O.B.E. Manson, J. W. Meagher, E. R., M.B.E.,

E.D .

,. Monbulk Swan Hill Lowan' Ivanhoe Melbourne Gippsland West Polwarth Footscray St. Kilda Gisborne· Dromana Moonee Ponds Ballaarat North Gippsland East Brunswick East Williamstown Deer Park Mitcham Scoresby Richmond. Gippsland South Reservoir Hawthorn Dandenong Sunshine Prahran Glen Iris Rodney Dundas Portland Bennettswood Ringwood Frankston

MEMBER

Mitchell, T. W. Moss, G. C. Mutton, J. P. .. Phelarr, William Porter, M. V. Rafferty, J. A ... Reese, W. F. L. Reid, G. O.

§Reid, L. S., D.F.C. Ring, E. C. Ross-Edwards, Peter Rossiter, J. F. Rylah, Sir Arthur, K.B.B.,

C.M.G., E.D. Scanlan, A. H.

IISimmonds, J. L. Smith, A. V .. Smith, I. W. Stephen, W. F. Stokes, R. N. Stoneham, C. P. Suggett; R. H ... Sutton, P. K. .. Tanner, A. L. .. Tanner, Sir Edgar, C.B.E.,

E.D. Taylor, A. W., B.D. Templeton, T. W. Trethewey, R. H. Trewin, T. C ... Trezise, N. B.' .. Turnbull, Campbell Vale, R. M. Wheeler, K. H. Whiting, M. S. Wilcox, V. F. Wilkes, F. N. .. Wilton, J. T. Wiltshire, R. J.

ELECTORAL DISTRICT

Benambra Murray VaHey Coburg Kara Kara Sandringham Glenhuntly Moorabbin Box Hill Dandenong Preston Shepparton Brighton Kew

Oakleigh Reservoir Bellafine Warrnambool Ballaarat South Evelyn Midlands Bentleigh Albert Park Morwell Caulfield

Balwyn Mentone Bendigo Benalla Geelong North Brunswick West Greensborough Essendon Mildura Camberwell Northcote Broadmeadows Syndal

• Died, March 18, 1970. t Resigned. September 18. 1969. t Elected. December 6, 1969. § Resigned. September 18. 1969, II Elected. October 27. 1969.

HEADS OF PARLIAMENTARY DEPARTMENTS. Council-Clerk of the Parliaments and Clerk of the Legislative Council :

Mr. A. R. B. McDonnell. Assembly-Clerk of the Legislative Assembly : Mr. J. H. Campbell.

Hansard-Chief Reporter: Mr. G. E. Clarke.

Library-Librarian: Mr. L. E. Parkes (Died, December 5, 1969). Miss J. McGovern (From January 11, 1970).

Labour and Industry [20 NOVEMBER, 1969.] (Further Amendment) Bill 1965

shall work or shall be allowed to work between the fixed and traversing part of any self-acting machine while .the machine is in motion.

Several w-eeks ago, ,I received la tletter from the National Council of Women as~ing that special prov-isions intended fer the protection of women be removed from the law, so 'as to remO've discri'mination between the sexes, in .order to show that women are prepared to accept the same conditions as men and sO' qualify for the same benefits.

At labout the same time, an inquest was held at Geelong ,into the death of la 'man who suffered fatal injury while 'oleaning 'machinery lin ,motion. Following that inquest, the Geelong cO'rO'ner suggested that the provisions of ,sub-section (2) .of section 178 should be extended to apply to men als'O, and it is now prO'posed to dO'that.

Cl1ause 9 'concerns the statutO'ry pO'wers O'f inspectors under the Act, and 'includes a provisi'OnempoweTting an inspector to take samples of materials for analysis. A provision to thi'seffect was included in an earlier Bill, which was introduced during the last session, but was not proceeded with lin view of the attitude taken in anO'ther place ,that the requirements should be speUed out in more detail than that Bill provided. It was -explained at that titme that the lack of a sampling provision prevented the V'ictorian Government ~~om agreeing to 'ratification by Austral:ia of certain InternatiO'nal LabO'ur Organization conventions dealing with ,labour inspectiO'n, :and that the provisions then proposed would cure that deficiency. That ,situation still remains; the sampling provisions have been redrafted in greater detaH and should be acceptable t'O all 'concerned.

Clause 10 deals with another matter that was not proceeded with in that earlier Bill. It concerns the matter of granting exemptions in particular cases from requirements contained in regulations made under the Act. The earlier proposal was that

Session 1969.-72

a departmental officer should be empowered by the Minister to' grant such exemptions in appropriate cases. Some members took exception to this and, as it was very late in the session the matter was not pressed.

As a matter of interest, I recall that it was then suggested by the Opposition that I should look at the New South Wales and EngLish law O'n this matter. I have since done so, and I find that the New South Wales and English statutes both contain provisions similar to those contained in the earlier Bi1I-empowering a departmental officer to grant exemptions. However, the provision contained in the current Bill reserves to the Minister the power to grant exemptions and should therefore gain approval.

Clause 11 repeals section 207, which has become redundant following the repeal of Divisions 3 and 4 of Part VI. of the Act, and clause 12 simply updates the statutory references contained in the Second Schedule. Finally, clause 13 is to repeal the Master and Apprentice Act 1958. This is an old Act which has been on the statute-book for a long time. It incorporated into the Victorian law the English common law on apprenticeship and vested jurisdiction in Victorian courts to deal with various matters arising out of indentures of apprenticeship. The provisions O'f this Act are redundant and its repeal will not affect in any way the current system of apprenticeship, which is administered pursuant to the Apprenticeship Act 1958. The des,irability of repealing it was recently brought to notice when it was seen tha t section 17, which allows for imprisonment of an apprentice who refuses to perform his contract, is contrary to' an International Labour Organization convention on the abolition of "forced labour ".

There are two provisions of this Bill which have reference to the International Labour Organization. This year is the 50th anniversary of that remarkable and important

1966 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY. ] Adjournment.

Organization, and last July I was privileged to observe its annual conference in session at Geneva. Another visito'r at that conference was His HoLiness Pope Paul VI. In welcoming His Holiness, the International Labour Organization Director-General, Mr. David A. Morse, observed:

In ,this hall are the representatives of the working men and women of the entire world. They reflect every colour, every religion and every ideology. This is a completely universal gathering.

In addressing the conference, the Pope said-

In labour, it is man who comes first. Whether he be an artist or an artisan, contractor, peasant or labourer, manual or intellectual, it is man who works, it is for man that he works.

His Holiness remarked that the social factor must take precedence over the economic factor, and said-

That is why the International Labour Organization offers today, in that closed arena of the modern world in which interests and ideologies are dangerously opposed, an open road towards a better future for mankind. Perhaps more than any other institution, you can contribute to this, quite simply, by being actively and inventively true to your ideal: Universal peace through social justice.

I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, December 2.

ADJOURNMENT. PARLIAMENT HOUSE: MAIL-UNI-

VERSITY OF MELBOURNE: PHYSICAL EDUCATION COURSE.

Mr. REID (AttorneY-Gene'l"al).I move-

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday next, at Two o'clock.

The motion was agreed to.

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).I move-

That the House do now adjourn.

Sir EDGAR TANNER (Caulfield).Mr. Speaker, I dO' not know whether the matter I wish to mention is one for the attention of a Minister or of yourself. If a letter is posted at the post office in Parliament House after 8.30 p.m. today it will not be delivered until the day after tomorrow. I wonder if a later collection of mail could be arranged.

Mr. DIXON {St. KHda).-1 direct the attention of the Assistant Minister of Education to a matter of extreme importance to the health and fitness of the people of Victoria. It concerns the proposal to discontinue the course for a diploma of physical education at the University of Melbourne. I understand that, on 3rd November, because the Australian Universities Commission has recommended that diploma courses should be pruned by universities, the council of the University decided that next year's intake for that course will be the last. I dO' not agree with that and, in particular, I do not agree that the course in physical education should be dropped. If it is to be discontinued because it is a diploma course, a more satisfactory solution would be to upgrade it to a degree course.

In Queensland, there is a bachelor of education course in which physical education is a major subject. Western Australia has a simi:lar course and a bachelor of science course, in which physical 'education will be a major subject, is being considered. In Tasmania, there is a bachelor of arts course in which physical education is a major subject. There is a bachelor of education course in New South Wales with physical education as a major subject and some units of physical education are part of the arts course. South Australia is the only State in which there is no university course in physical educa-

Adjournment. [20 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Adjournment. 1967

tion. Apparently, South Australia has been affected by the recommendation of the Australian Universities Commission also.

One alternative to conducting the course at the University of Melbourne would be to transfer it, with all the facilities valued at over $2 million, to the auspices of the Victoria Institute of Colleges. If that were done, the enjoyment of higher status would be lost and the benefits of research which are most necessary for the physical fitness of the community would be considerably lessened. Instead of the course being transferred from the University to the Victoria Institute of Colleges, the Institute should provide additional courses in physical education.

The community is healthy in that it is comparatively free from disease and life expectation is longer than it was, but we should be fit to enjoy our health. Physical education is a subject at leaving standard under the Victorian Universities and Schools Examination Board, and will probably become a matriculation subject. People who have begun studying for a Diploma of Physical Education have gone on to obtain a degree in bachelor of education and master of education and, eventually will achieve a Ph.D. in human engineering. Research has been directed towards the particular skills which are necessary for driving motor cars and to find that mental fitness improves with physical activity which stimulates and arouses the brain. These are crucial matters facing society with its increasing trend to sedentary occupations.

The Education Department desperately needs physical education teachers and it could be greatly affected in obtaining them if the diploma course in physical education ceases to exist. Dropping the course would save the university only about $80,000 or $90,000 a year. I ask the Minister to investigate this matter. I suggest that an attempt should be made by the representative of the

Education Department on thecounciI of the University of Melbourne to have the decision reversed because of the great value to the community of research and the deserved higher status given to the subject if physical education courses are continued at the University.

Mr. ROSSITER (M-inister of Labour and Industry) .-1 can imagine no fitter member to bring the subject of physical education before the House than the honorable member for St. Kilda. As all honorable members know, the council of the University of Melbourne is responsible for the affairs of the University. At times, the Australian Universities Commission makes suggestions about the internal affairs of the university. It would be a tragedy if the School of Physical Education at the Melbourne university became defunct, or was transferred from its indigenous area in the University.

The Minister of Education has been concerned about this matter and has had talks on it with the ViceChancellor of the University. I shall refer to him the points made by the honorable member for St. Kilda and I shall also refer them to the Premier. The possibility that a section of the University of Melbourne may go out of existence must concern the Premier, as it must concern every honorable member of this Parliament.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-I will examine the question of late delivery of mail posted at Parliament House. It may not be caused by mail being posted after 8.30 p.m., but by some problem within the Post Office.


The House adjourned at 5.38 p.m. until Tuesday, November 25.

1968 New [COUNCIL.] Member.

Ilfgis!ntiuf (!tun"!.!. Tuesday~ November 25., 196~.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett) took the ,chair ,at 4.23 p.m., and read the prayer.

NEW MEMBER. The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W.

Garrett) announced that he had received a return to the writ he had issued for the election of a member to serve for the North-Westem Province in the place of Sir Percy Byrnes, retired, showing that Mr. Bernard Philip Dunn had been duly elected.

Mr. Dunn was introduced and sworn.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-I 'conrgratulate you, Mr. Dunn, ·on your election to the Legislative Council as a representative of the North-Western Province. I trust that your period of membership of this House will be long and fruitful.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (M'inister of Agriculture) (By leave) .-On behalf of members on the Government side of this Chamber I welcome the Honorable Bernie Dunn and wish him well as a representative of the North-Western Province in the years that lie ahead. Mr. Dunn succeeds a very distinguished gentleman in Sir Percy Byrnes, whom all honorable members, regardless of their party affiliations, held in high esteem. I am sure that, as the years go by, Mr. Dunn will prove a worthy successor to an outstanding member.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) (By leave).On behalf of members of the Labor Party, I extend an equally hearty welcome to Mr. Dunn-in fact, in some respects, my welcome is perhaps heartier than that of the Leader of the House. I hasten to assure honorable members that I am not suggesting that my party is looking for favours to come from Mr. Dunn. The new member is a young man. It will

take him a long time to become as sage as the man of wisdom who formerly occupied the seat that he recently won so well. I trust that Mr. Dunn will make a vast contribution to the Parliament of Victoria in what seems likely to be a ;lifetime of service.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province) (By leave) .-On behalf of the Country Party, I endorse the remarks of the Leader of the House and Mr. Galbally in welcoming the Honorable Bernie Dunn as a member of his Chamber. Of course, to members of our party it is pleasing that our representation in this House, which was tempor.arily diminished when our esteemed leader resigned (trom the Legislative Council, has been restored. I trust that Mr. !Dunn, like his predecessor, 'win have an outstanding career in this Cha'mber, and that he will be here for many year-s to come.

RAILWAYS (OFFENCES) BILL. This Bill was received from the

Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health), was read a first time.

FIREARMS (AMENDMENT) BILL. This Bill was received from the

Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education), was read a first time.

WHEAT MARKETING BILL. This Bill was returned from the

Assembly with a message relating to amendments.

It was ordered that the message be taken into consideration later this day.

HOUSING COMMISSION. DANDENONG ESTATE.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) asked the Minister of Agricul ture-

(a) How many acres of land has the Housing Commission of Victoria bought recently for a new housing estate near the corner of Chandler and Cheltenham roads, Dandenong?

Railway [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Department. 1969

(b) How many houses are expected to be built in this area?

(c) How much did the Commission pay for this land per building block and per acre, respectively?

(d) What charges were provided for in this price, besides the actual land?

(e) What is the estimated value of a house and land on this estate?

(f) What will be the approximate rental of 2 and 3 bedroom units, respectively?

(g) When is it proposed to call tenders for the erection of home units on this land?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-The answers are-

(a) 30 acres 2 roods and 28 perches. However this land was purchased already subdivided, roaded and with all essential services available.

(b) 168.

(c) The land was purchased by the Commission in allotments at a consideration of $2,976 per allotment, the equivalent cost per acre being $16,302.

(d) The price would have included all normal subdivisional costs such as road, kerb, channel and footpath construction, and the provision of drainage, water, sewerage, electricity and gas services.

(e) Until such time as contracts for the erection of houses have been finalized it will not be possible to forecast a value of these homes.

(f) It is not proposed to construct any 2-bedroom homes on this estate. Current rental for a typical 3-bedroom house to be erected on this estate is $10.80.

(g) Tenders have been called and at present are being considered by the Commission.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. NEW STATION BETWEEN DANDENONG

AND NOBLE PARK.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) Over the past ten years, what representations for the provision of a new railway station between Dandenong and Noble Park have been received by the Minister of Transport from individuals, associations and/or municipal councils in the Dandenong district?

(b) What priority has this new station, and when is it expected that funds will be available for the project?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-The answers are-

(a) Over the past ten years numerous representations concerning a possible new station between Dandenong and Noble Park have been made by Mr. L. S. Reid, who was until recently member for Dandenong. Representations have also been made by the Dandenong City Council, Yarraman Progress Association, Noble Park High School Parents and Citizens Association, and Biro Bic and Gollin Pty. Ltd.

(b) I understand that a new station between Dandenong and Noble Park has first priority with the railways so far as any new stations to be built on an existing line are concerned. The new station will be built as soon as funds for any new stations are available.

EDUCATION. LEAVING AND MATRICULATION

EXAMINATIONS.

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL (Western Province) asked the Minister of Education-

(a) In each of the past three years, how many students sat for leaving and matriculation examinations, respectively, at-(i) Government schools; and (ii) registered schools?

(b) How many passes were obtained in each category?

(c) What fee is charged per student in each category?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answers to these questions are of a statistical nature, and I suggest that they be incorporated in Hansard without my reading them.

Leave was granted, and the answers were as follows:-

(a) and (b) Statistics on these matters are kept by the Victorian Universities and Schools Examinations Board. The Board does not distinguish between Government and registered schools and only the total numbers of applicants are recorded each year. These were as follows:-

1968 Leaving examination-Class A schools 13,789 Class B, (external) 19,338

Total 33,127

Matriculation examination. Applicants sitting for one subject or

more--Males 15,292 Females 9,697

Total 24,989

1970 Education. [COUNCIL.] Police Department.

The number of applicants attempting the whole examination-

Males Females

Total

8,153 6,464

14,617

Pass rate in 1968 was 66.37 per cent.

1967 Leaving examinationClass A Class B

Total

Matriculation .examination.

9,887 20,951

30,838

Applicants sitting for one subject or more-

Males Females

Total

14,556 8,313

22,869


Males 7,369 Females 5,529

Total 12,898


1966 Leaving examinationClass A Class B

Total

Matriculation examination-

8,352 20,014

28,366

Applicants sitting for one subject or more-

Males Females

Total

13,682 7,764

21,446


Males 7,017 Females 5,279

Total 12,296


(c) $3 entry fee is charged for leaving examination and $2 has to be paid for every subject.

$3 entry fee is charged for matriculation examination and $3 has to be paid for every subject.

Class A schools charge an over-all rate of $4 per applicant.

The Hon. L. H. S. Thompson.

POLICE DEPARTMENT.

POLICY TOWARDS MEMBERS OF CITIZEN MILITARY FORCE.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

In respect of members of the Victoria Police Force attending Citizen Military Force camps as volunteer military personnel -(i) what is the current policy regarding pay rates while police are absent at such camps, and when was the policy adopted; (ii) has the current policy changed from that applying under former Police Commissioners Porter and Arnold, respectively; if so, to what extent; and (iii) are any members of any of the varying branches of the State Public Service paid at their normal rates of pay while serving in camp with .the Citizen Military Force; if so, do the policies differ as between the varying branches of the Service, and why?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-The answer is-

The present policy is that members of the Force who are voluntary members of the Citizen Military Force, will be granted 14 days leave with pay for the purpose of attending an annual training camp and a further 4 days a year for the same purpose on the certification of the commanding officer of the particular service unit concerned that such additional days are required.

This is the same policy as adopted by the State Public Service.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT.

LANGWARRIN STATE SCHOOL: COMPLETION.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) asked the Minister of Educ:ation-

(a) When was work last carried out on the building of Langwarrin State School, and what has caused the delay?

(b) Who was the successful tenderer, for what amount, and what is the expected completion date?

(c) Is he aware that-(i) the partiallycompleted building has been left open; (ii) a local resident has been going over every day for two weeks closing windows and doors; and (iii) vandals have already caused damage?

(d) When is it expected that work will be resumed on the building?

Education. [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Department. 1971

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answers are-

(a) Work stopped on Langwarrin State School at the beginning of November, 1969, due to the contractors financial difficulties.

(b) The successful tenderer was B. P. Finn and the contract amount for the building was $87,611.50. The completion time for the building set out in the contract was 10th November, 1969. A definite time for completion cannot be ascertained until works are resumed.

(c) The building is partially complete; however, although the doors are shut and secured, no door locks or door furniture have been installed. The Department is not aware that a local resident has been closing windows and doors. Although vandals appear to have entered the building, only minor damage has resulted to date.

(d) The resumption of work cannot be forecast pending a decision to be made in the immediate future, as to what action is to be taken to complete the contract. This will depend on current negotiations with the builder. It is anticipated that the position will be clarified shortly and every step will be taken to complete the work as quickly as possible.

(a)

School. Architect.

4910 Southmoor .. Mr. J. Baird ..

3016 Toorak .. Mr. I. A. Aird (Eng.)

4860 Blackburn Lake Mr. J. Baird ..

4036 Blackburn South P.W.D. .. ..

4800 Blackburn East .. Mr. L. Bowden ..

4854 Park Orchards .. P.W.D. .. ..

ART AND CRAFT CENTRES.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) asked the Minister of Education-

(a) In the past twelve months, what schools have had art and craft centres built; naming, in each case, the school, the architect, the successful tenderer, the Government subsidy, and the parents' contribution?

(b) What schools have been approved to have art and craft centres built during the next twelve months and, in each case---(i) what is the estimated cost; and (ii) what will be the estimated Government subsidy and parents' contribution, respectively?

(c) Has any recent decision been made to increase the amount of Government subsidy; if so, what was the decision and if, in view of rising building costs, this amount represents a $1 for $1 subsidy?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answers to these questions are detailed, and I suggest that they be incorporated in Hansard without my reading them.

Leave was granted, and the answers were as follows:-

Contractor I Subsidy. Local Contribution.

W. Cutting . . $5,000 $5,997 plus

architect's fees

P. T. Dawes .. $5,000 $5,550

W. Cutting and Sons $5,000 $5,487 plus

architect's fees

Lewis Constructions $2,400 $2,100 (a $600 subsidy

on $2 for $1 included)

$8,536 P. T. Dawes . . $5,000 (a further grant of up to $1,768 on a $1 for $1 basis has been promised to be paid in a future

financial year.)

Consolidated Home $5,019.06 $4,954.54 Industries (subsidy of

$119.06 on $2 for $1 basis

included.)

1972 Education [COUNCIL.] Department.

(b) Special grants approved for art and craft centres to be erected in the next twelve months.

School. Estimated Cost. 1)ubsidy. Local Contribution.

40 Berwick $14,000 $6,000 $8,000 (small canteen

4712 Coatesville included) $12,000 $6,000 $6,000

4871 Mitcham Special $15,000 $6,000 $8,000 (parents committee

3449 Murrumbeena room included.)

$11,500 $5,750 $5,750

3432 Mt. Waverley $9,622 $5,411 $4,211 ($600 subsidy on

$2 for $1 included.) 4171 Parkdale $13,400 $6,000 $7,400

4778 Valkstone $11,000 $5,500 $5,500

4901 Sandown Park .. $10,844 $5,000 $5,844

209 Eltham $10,425 $5,000 $5,425

1743 Warrnambool $11,360 $5,522 $5,838 ($522 subsidy on $2

for $1 included.) 4723 Dandenong North $12,000 $6,000 $6,000

4742 Shepparton $11,000 $5,500 $5,500

2104 Warragul $4,000 $2,000 $2,000 (old school building

4193 Aspendale to be acquired.)

4721 Oak Park

4665 Newport West

1111 Moorabbin

4714 Syndal

3790 Edithvale

4928 Moorabbin West Special

4702 Eastwood

(c) On 10th November, 1969, approval was given for the maximum special grant to be increased from $5,000 to $6,000 on a $1 for $1 basis. Tenders recently obtained for four schools for rooms to be erected in standard class-room construction to a new Public Works Department plan indicate that


$13,500 $6,000 $7,500

$10,000 $5,000 $5,000

$12,000 $6,000 $6,000

$12,500 $6,000 $6,500

$10,000 $5,000 $5,000

$15,000 $6,000 $9,000

$16,500 $6,000 $10,500 ($2,250 on $1 for $1 promised in a future financial

year.) $16,000 $6,000 $10,000

($2,000 on $1 for $1 basis promised

in a future financial year.)

costs will work out on approximately a $1 for $1 basis. However, if school committees choose to engage private architects to design individual plans, costs including architects' fees are usually higher and the local contribution is likely to be more than 50 per cent. of the total costs.

National [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Service. 1973

FISHING AND GAME LICENCES. The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH

(Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Is the Governmen t aware that fishing and game licences are issued and fees collected through sports stores in New South Wales, compared with the Victorian practice of issuing these licences through police stations; if so, does the Government agree that the introduction of a similar practice here would release a considerable number of police officers for normal police duties, and assist in relieving the shortage of police which has existed for some time?


I am aware that fishing and other similar licences are issued by sports stores in New South Wales. Investigations have been made into the practicability of adopting. a similar system in Victoria but it has been found that the system would have many disadvantages particularly in view of the multiplicity of stores involved. In addition, an examination of the system operating in New South Wales has disclosed that all sorts of problems have arisen in regard to matters of prosecution, in enforcement, checking licences and so on.

After careful consideration of the factors involved, it has been decided not to introduce the New South Wales system into this State. However, I might mention that, apart from police stations, angling and game licences are also available from Fisheries and Wildlife Branch offices, Victorian Government Tourist Bureaux, offices of the Royal Automobile Club of Victoria and from the Mount Buffalo Chalet.

NATIONAL SERVICE. BURNING OF CALL-UP NOTICES.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL (Monash Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Has the Government given consideration to instituting proceedings under paragraph (a) of section 4 of the Summary Offences Act 1966 against certain persons alleged to to have burnt call-up notices, issued under the CommonweaLth National Service Act, in a public place on Saturday, 15th November; if not, why?


It is not proposed to institute proceedings under paragraph (a) of section 4 of the Summary Offences Act as a result of the demonstration referred to by the honorable member.

As I understand that the documents which were burned were issued under the National Service Act, it is considered that any action to be taken should be initiated by :the Commonwealth.

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. PRE-SCHOOL CENTRES AND

KINDERGARTENS. The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (South

Eastern Province).-By leave, on the 12th November I directed a question relating to pre-school centres and kindergartens to the Minister of Health and .in the course 'Of his reply he said that a list of pTe.:. sch 001 centres was being obtained and -would be supplied to me. That list has been fiorwarded to me by post and, as it is oOf general interest, I am -wondering how the :informaHon can be incorpora ted in Hansard.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (M.inister of Health) (By leave) .-If the question were redirected to me, the answer could be incorporated in Hansard.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-The information -clQuld be incorporated in Hansard only by Mr. Cathie reading the list that has been suppllied to hi-m or by his 'asking the question again. Probably the latter course would be the hetter way oOf Mr. Cathie achieving his oObjecttive.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government), by leave, moved for leave to bring ,in ,a Bill no amend the Local Government Act 1958 and the St'rata ~ftitles Act 1967, and for other purposes.

The moOt ion 'was agreed to. The Bill was brought in and read

a first time.

ABOLITION OF OBSOLETE OFFENCES BILL.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government).-I 'mnve-

That this Bill be now read a second time. This BiB deals with a number of obscure offences in the law and I shall havp t() use some unfamiliar words.

1974 Abolition of Obsolete [COUNCIL.] Offences Bill.

In ,fact, I doubt whether many honorable 'members would know that the offences 'which .are the subject-matter of the BiB were actually offences. The BiB is based upon a report 'Of a subcom'mittee of the Chief Justice's Law Refoom Comm'ittee 'consisting of Mr. Justice Newton of the Supreme Court, as Chair-man, Professor Enid Campbell of the Faoulny of Law of Monash University, Mr. J. D. Merralls of counsel and Mr. R. W. Gaylard, a practising solicitor and chairman of the COounoil .of the Law Inst,itute of Victoria. The report recommended the abolition in Victoria of the common law offences of maintenance, inoluding champerty but not embracery, eavesdropping or being a com·mon barrator a com,mon scold or a 'com'm.on night-.walker. These matters had previously been the subject of a report dated 24th May, 1966, of the English Law Oom'm:ission, and recommendaNons therein for abolishing the offences I have mentioned were given effect to' in England by 'Part U. of the Crim,inal Law Act 1967. . As it appears from the report of the sub-'committee that these old offences are part 'Of the common l'aw in Victoria, the Government has decided toO adopt the recom.mendationsmade in the report, e~cept as to ,eavesdropping. While the com,mOon law offence of eavesdropping wOould not cover the Imodern use of l,is:tening devices, it is felt that it would be cons'istent with the wi'}'} of Parliament, as expressed in the Listening Devices ~ct 1969, '1'0 retain the com'moOn law offence.

I shaH indicate to rt:he House what the offences are. A work entitled Hawkins Pleas of the Crown, Book 1 at page 454 defines "·malintenance" in a court of justice as-

Where one officiously intermeddles in a suit depending in any such Court which no way belongs to him, by assisting either party

. with money, or otherwise, in the prosecution or defence of any such suit. The author ,conNnues by Slaying that there are three speoies of ·maintenance-

First, where one maintains another with. out any contract to have part of the thing

The Hon. R. J. Hamer.

in suit, which generally goes under the common name of "maintenance". Secondly where one maintains one side, to have part of the thing in suit, which is called " champerty". Thirdly where one laboureth a jury, which is called "embracery".

It ·will be noted that it has not been recO'm'mended that the offence of embracery should be abolished. This offence is preserved by section 70 of the Juries Act 1967 and p~osecutlions for embracery -occur from time to time.

As to ·common barrators, common scolds 'and night-walkers, the autho)}itative text book on cr.ilmina'l law, Russell on Crime, states in chapter 23-

A common barrator is defined to be cc a common mover, exciter, or maintainer of suits or quarrels in courts of record, or other courts, as the county court, and the like; or in the country, by taking and keeping possession of lands in controversy, by all kinds of disturbance of the peace, or by spreading false rumours and calumnies whereby discord and disquiet may grow among neighbours." But one act of this description will not be sufficient, since it has always been necessary in an indictment for this offence to charge the defendant with being a common barrator, which is a term of art appropriated by law to this crime. It has been held that a man shall not be adjudged a barrator in respect of any number of false actions brought by him in his own right; but this is doubted, in case 'Such actions be merely groundless and vexatious, without any manner of colour, and brought only with a design to oppress the defendants.

The offence is now rarely prosecuted. The most recent instance occurred in 1889, viz., a prosecution for stirring up a series of fraudulent actions for damages against a railway company.

It is not barratry for a solicitor to maintain a party in a groundless action, to the commencing whereof the solicitor was in no way privy.

Russell gives the following definitions of a com·mon scold and of night-walkers: -

A common scold, communis rixatrix, is a public nuisance to her neighbourhood, and may be indicted for the offence; and, upon

. conviction punished by fine and imprisonment or by being placed in a certain engine of correction called the trebucket, or cucking stool, or ducking stool, or ducking tumbrel, or scolding cart. It is not necessary to give in evidence the particular expressions used; it is sufficient to prove generally that the defendant is always scolding .

Abolition of Obsolete [25 NOVEMBER, 1~69.] Offences Bill. 1975'

Night-walkers, communes noctivagi, are said to have been indictable in the Sheriff's Tourn. Such persons if suspected of crime may now be arrested under 14 and 15 Vict. c. 19, s. 11, ante, or dealt with under the Acts relating to the particular offence of which they are suspected. The old law as to night-walking seems to have been connected with the curfew, and power to arrest strangers passing in the night was given by the statute of Wynton, 13 Edw. 1, st. 2, c. 4, repealed in 1827.

I 'lnight add that the nature of the nuisance created by a com,mon scold is her indulging in persistent abuse.

The Government has adopted the view 'e~pressed in the rep'ort of the sub-,com'mittee of the Chief Justice's Law Ref.orm Committee that the offences and torts of 'ma'intenance and champerty could be abolished with advantage in V,ictoria, subject too 'a saving provision 'along the lines 'Of sub-section (2) of section 14 of the English C~ilminal Law Act 1967, ,in order to Tetain the present position that any arrangement between s'OHcitor and dient for the solicitor toO receive a share of the proceeds of litigation, lif suecessful, is illegal.

I turn now to the provisions of the Bill. Clause 1 contains :the short title. Clause 2 linseTts in the Cdmes Act 1958 a new section 322A abolishing the common 'la'w offences of maintenance, including champerty but not embracery, or of being a common barrator, a com,mon scold or a com,mon night-'walker. The dause a!lso 'm'akes a consequential amendment to section 1 'Of the Act.

A new sub-section (4) is inserted in section 28 of the Legal Profession Practice Act 1958 by clause 3. It prO'vides that a solicitor who makes an agreement with a client to accept part of any amount received by the client lin proceedings instituted or conducted by the solicitor on behalf of the client shall be guilty of misconduct, notwithstanding the abolition of the common law offence of maintenance. This provision is, of course, in accordance with the report adopted by the Chief Justice's Law Reform Committee. Clause 5 ,is also in accordance with the last-mentioned

report and inserts a new section 32 in the Wrongs Act 1958, with a consequential amendment of section 1. The new provision, while abolishing civil liability ,in maintenance or champerty, preserves the existing rules of law as to illegality of ,contracts on account of maintenance or champerty.

No doubt all honorable members will be relieved to see these old offences vanish from the law, and I com:mend the Bill to the House.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West Province) .-During the Minister's second-reading speech, there was a slight degree of levtity in the House, but it is appreciated that the Minister dealt seriously with the matters contained in the Bill. From time to' time, it is sensible that there should be an examination of the law and that certain offences which have their roots in antiquity should be removed from the statute-book. In all probability, there are sufficient avenues in more advanced legislation to' remove any of the causes which generally result in the actions of people who could be accused of the various offences mentioned in the Bill.

When honorable members think of maintenance they no doubt think of the deserted wife who is endeavouring to make her husband look after her children and herself. However, the term has an entirely different meaning in this context, and it has been a source of concern that members of the legal profession and others have been prepared to advance money to' pursue certain actions provided that they received a share of the monetary reward, if any. It is good that certain terms are to be abolished from the law. There have been cases where lit has been said that people who pursued into the courts workers compensation claims, or common law claims for accidents, have been charged exorbitant fees by those persons conducting the cases. Probably some form of agreement had been arrived at beforehand; for

1976 Abolition of Obsolete [COUNCIL.] Offences Bill.

example, that the case would be conducted at no cost if it were lost, but that if it were won a substantial share of the damages would be received by the person conducting the case.

Although the common law offence of champerty is being abolished, there is provision in the statute law to deal effectively with people who indulge in that type of activity. It is only right that the offence of embracery should be retained. Under no circumstances should juries be approached with suggestions that they do certain things. To be a common barrator or a common scold will, of itself, no longer be an offence, but I know that some neighbourhoods still suffer at the hands of warring women. Some persons in the community apparently take a delight by annoying their neighbours by wrangling and arguing at all times of the day and night. However, others steps can be taken to restrict them, and the retention of the old offences is not necessary.

Several types of offenders could be described by the term "common night-walker". One book available in the Parliamentary Library suggests that the term could be applied to women of easy virtue who tread the streets late at night in search of custom, or even to males who endeavour to entice people to have dealings with their clients. The Bill not merely abolishes these offences, but tidies up the legal position so that there is provision under statute law to deal with people who act illegally in a way which has been covered by the common law. The last prosecution against a common barrator was in the 1880s. The Labor Party offers no objection to the Bill.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) .-This Bill, which has for its purpose the abolition of certain obsolete criminal offences, has resulted from what must have been an extremely interesting inquiry by the Chief Justice's Law Reform Committee. I only regret that the matter was not referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee because I am sure

that the members of that Committee would have been delighted to examine the ancient offences. As Mr. Todd pointed out, the Bill embraces a number of principles of some importance. All the offences mentioned are offences under the common law, and it is becoming increasingly obvious that these offences will cease to exist as statute law covers the position and the law is brought up to date.

When the Minister for Local Government was making his explanatory second-reading speech, Mr. Campbell, and even Mr. Hunt, by interjection, dealt the legal profession some hard blows in regard to these old offences. I believe that the profession is innocent of 'their implications and that, on the whole, it is of a very high standard. I see that Mr. Hunt agrees with me. I do not think the legal profession has been particularly affected by the provisions relating to 'these old offences for many yearsnot since it became established on a purely professional basis.

I disagree with only one observation made by Mr. Todd. The Minister said that the term" night-walker" would not mean what we expected and I think he is right and Mr. Todd is wrong.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-You should examine the references in the Library to see who is right.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-I have not studied all the books in the Library, but night-walkers--communes noctivagi-were those who· travelled at night. The Minister suggested that they were those who wandered about at night, but I think if he goes far enough back into the history of the term he will find that it referred to those who travelled at night. If the second-reading notes are correct, it related to the curfew. In medireval times, people were not supposed to be out of doors after lights out, and it was that which led to the introduction of the offence of being a night-walker. Mr. Todd, having a suspicious nature, thinks the term has to do with prostitutes and

Abolition of Obsolete [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Offences Bill. 1977

street walkers, but I take a more sophisticated attitude. We now allow people to walk about at night unmolested, provided that they do not commit offences.

The Country Party is pleased to support this Bill, which is one of a series of measures put forward by the Government with the view of gradually improving the law.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time and

committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 (Amendment of No.

6231).

The Hon. R. J. HAMER {Minister for Local Government) .-1 thank honorable members for giving a speedy passage to this small measure. Mr. Todd referred to the fact that it was significant that it was still an offence, and misconduct, for a solicitor to make a bargain with a client to obtain part of the proceeds of an action or suit. All honorable members would support that view. It is more difficult to pin down the occasional case in which exorbitant fees are charged so that it almost amounts to the same thing. Honorable members can be assured that there is a way in which such fees can be checked through the Law Institute or, as Mr. Hunt suggests, by the Taxing Master, if they apply to the other party. Action is sometimes taken by aggrieved clients to have these costs verified. 1 know that Mr. Clarke will agree that there are very few cases in which there is the slightest suspicion that the lawyer would share the proceeds of a case with his client. That sort of practice is to be discouraged, and it is discouraged under this Bill.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-There are a few cases in New South Wales.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-We are not immune from them in Victoria, but they are rare. Mr. Todd gave another exhibition of his knowledge and research into the law on the subject of night walking. The old

offence was that of being abroad after dark-whether travelling or wandering about did not matter. Normally, the offence was being in the street after 'curlew, whether innocently or proposing to 'com'mit any offence. There is ample p~ovision in the la'w to deal with prostitutes who solicit or loiter, or with others who loiter with intent to commit a felony. There are many such proviSions in statute law and that is why the common law offence of night-walking is not necessary. Ilf lit still applied, many of us would be in dire trouble. As the title of the Bill implies, the offences with which it deals are obsolete.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses.

The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its rema.ining stages.

MOTOR CAR (TRAFFIC OFFENDERS) BILL.

This Bill was received from Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government), was read a first time.

NAVIGABLE WATERS (OIL POLLUTION) (AMENDMENT)

BILL. The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minisfer

of Health) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second tim~.

Amendment of the Navigable Waters (Oil Pollution) Act 1960 is necessary as a result of amendments to the International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution of the Sea by Oil to which Australia is a signatory. Similar amendment to the corresponding legislation of the other States has been or is being undertaken, but advantage is also being taken to include additional amendments in the Victorian legislation, which have been found necessary to enforce the provisions of the Act more effectively.

Other items dealt with in the Bill include the removal of liability of an agent for pollution by a ship for which

1978 Navigable Waters (Oil [COUNCIL.] Pollution) (Amendment) Bill.

such agent acts and extension of liability for pollution in certain other cases, simplification of procedures for the recovery of costs and expenses incurred by a statutory authority in " cleaning-up" following the occurrence of an oil pollution, and extension of the field of persons liable to meet such costs.

I shall now deal in more detail with the various matters to which I have just referred. Clause 2 of the Bill provides for a definition of "agent" of a ship to be included for the purposes of clause 11. A definition of " owner" of a ship so as to include " charterer" is also considered to be necessary.

In clause 3, there is provision that agents will no longer be liable for discharge of oil from ships. The existing legislation makes the ship's agent jointly liable with the owner and master when oil is discharged from a ship. However, since dismissal of a case some years ago against a person believed to be an agent, when the court indicated that the agent's authority did not extend to the control of a ship so as to make hinl an agent wi thin the meaning of the Act and liable for pollution caused by the ship, port authorities in Victoria have concentrated on prosecution of the master. The court's decision shows that it is not usually just to make agents liable for pollution.

Clause 4 provides for a new section 6A enabling prosecution in the case-not included in section 6-of an oil spillage occurring at one location due to an act or omission of a person at another location during a transfer operation. The new section is intended to place the liability on the person obviously at fault-that is, the person who, by some act or omission, causes an oil spillage.

Clause 5 provides for an addition to section 7 of the Act, which deals with special defences, making it a defence if a person charged under the new section 6A can prove that a discharge was not caused wilfully or 'negligently.

The Hon. V. O. Dickie.

Clause 6 provides for the costs and expenses incurred in cleaning-up operations to be recovered during the proceedings for an offence against the Act. Under existing provisions separate action must be taken to recover these expenses. The amendment ,should result in ,much saving in time and expensive duplication of evidence. The clause also provides for recovery of cleaning-up costs, even though proceedings have not been taken under section 6 of the Act in regard to an offence. This latter provision is desirable when evidence is insufficient to ensure a successful prosecution of an offence because of arguments concerning the special defences, but is adequate to enable recovery of expenses, since liability for cleaning-up expenses is absolute. ProViision is also made to recover cleaning-up costs from a person convicted of an offence under the new section 6A-that is, the person whO' has actually been responsible for causing the pollution.

Clause 7 contains an amendment to section 9 of the Act, and is intended to make it clear that the power to make regulations is not restricted to prescribing equipment to be fitted, but extends to controlling the way in which ships are operated. It also contains an amendment to' bring the Act into line with the new Article VII. of the International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution of the Sea by Oil, which requires that the carrying of water ballast in oil fuel tanks shall be avoidf:d if possible. Oily water ballast is a serious source of pollution when it is pumped out in ports prior to refuelling.

The Hon. R. W. MAY.-Will areas such as the Ninety-mile Beach be covered?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-I believe so. I think that is the purpose of the legislaUon. I shall verify it.

Clause 8 contains amendments to section 10, necessitated by the new Article IX. of the Convention. This' Article now requires that, except in

Navigable Waters (Oil [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Pollution) (Amendment) Bill. 1979

the case of unmanned ships under tow, the oil record book shall be kept on board the ship. However, the Convention does not apply to tankers under 150 tons or other vessels under 500 tons, and there are obvious advantages in keeping the records of s:mall harbor vessels in their shore offices. I t will be necessary to deal wli th this matter in ,some detail by means of regulations, and the amendment to sub-section (4) of section 10 permits this. The new article IX. also requires the record book to be completed "on each occasion", and the new subsection (6) of section 1 0 provides for this. In consequence of the other amendments to section 10, a new subsection (7) has been added instead of providing penalties in the regulations, since the new provisions of the section are not in the same terms as the regulation-making powers.

Clause 9 provides for a new subsection to be added to' section 11 of the Act, regarding notification of a discharge. Disputes can arise as to whether a report has been made to the authorities as required lin subsection (1) or what the substance of verbal reports has been, sometimes due to language difficulties in the case of non-English speaking masters. A written notice will prevent disputes of the kind which arise at present.

Clause 10 extends the provisions of section 12 of the Act which deals with the provision of facilities for reception and disposal of oily residues from ships. The existing subsection (4) empowers the appropriate authority to require the owner or occupier of an oil terminal, depot or installation to provide, maintain and make available such facilities for the use of ships. The amendment sets out the manner in which the requirement is to be made, and provides for an initial and a continuing penalty where a person fails to comply with the requirement.

Clause 11 provides for service of a document O'n the owner or master to be effected by serving the document

',on the agent of the ship. Difficulty

has been experienced in the past in serving a summons on the owner or master of a ship, particularly an overseas 'ship. It is obviously easlier to serve a sum/mons on the ,master than the owner, but even this is difficult when oil has ben discharged a short time before the ship is due to: sail, or when it is already leaving the port, or when the oil is discharged on a holiday or week-end and the ship saHs before a summons can be prepared and served. The new section 17 A will materially assist in overcoming these difficulties by removing the necessity to serve the summons directly on the owner or master. I commend the Bill to' the House.

On the motion of the Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting.

LEGAL PROFESSION PRACTICE 'BILL.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-1 move-

That this Bill be now read a second time.

This Bill makes several amendments of the Legal Profession Practice Act 1958, nearly all of which have been recommended by the Council of the Law Institute of Victoria. In respect of the proposals affecting the Victoria Law Foundation, the Chief.Justice, Sir Henry Winneke, who is president of the Foundation, has advised that he can see no objection to the proposals.

The first change, in Idause 2, deals wHh matters affecting the Victoria . Law Foundation. The second change is in paragraph (b) of this clause. Sub-section (3) of section 55A of the Legal Profession Practice Act provides that, when the council of the Law Institute directs that an amount be paid out of the Solicitors' Guarantee Fund, 80 per cent. of that amount shall be credited to the Victoria Law Foundation account and the balance paid to the Treasurer of Vktoria as a

• . j '

1980 Legal Profession [COUNCIL.] Practice Bill.

contribution towards the cost incurred by the State in the provision of legal assistance to the public.

Honorable members will be aware that there is another Bill before ·Parliament in respect of legal aid, Iwhi'ch 'will :make extensive

. alterations to the present legal aid system and ,enlarge it considerably. It will require the provision of additional moneys to improve the legal aid system. The Government has, therefore, taken the view that the percentage of the moneys to be provided for legal aid under subsection (3) of section 55A should be increased to 30 per cent. and that the reduced amount available to the Victoria Law Foundation wHl be adequate for its purposes. Paragraph (b) of the clause amends sub-section (3) of section 55A accordingly.

The Hon. ·M. A. CLARKE.-What are the actual figures?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-They are very high, because the main source of income is interest paid by banks on solicitors' trust a,ccounts. I shall furnish up-to-date figures during the second-reading debate.

Paragraph (c) of clause 2 corrects an ~mission from sub-section (5), of sectIOn 55A of the Act. This subsection defines the expression "net assets of the fund" and requires that from the actual value of the assets of the fund there shall be deducted all ascertained or contingent liabilities of the Solicitors' Guarantee Fund as well as any amount standing to the credit of the Victoria Law Foundation account. The Law Institute of Victoria has pointed out that one of the contingent liabili .. ties of the Fund is the liability under sub-section (2c) of section 40 of the Act to guarantee repayment to a solicitor of moneys deposited by him with the Law Institute under that section. The moneys so deposited are invested with banks, mainly on fixed deposit, and, while the amount involved is very 'considerable, there is no likelihood that the Fund will be required

to honour the guarantee. In these circumstances it is desirable that this contingent liability should ibe excluded in determining the net assets, since othel'lWise the purpose of creation of the Victoria Law Founda tion would be frustrated.

Clause 3 deals with section 64A of the Act, whkh is intended to enable innocent partners of a solidtor who has 'misappropriated trust :moneys to claim against the Solicitors' Guarantee Fund in place of persons who have suffered loss as the result of a defalcation, where the innocent partners have themselves compensated those persons. However, the effect of the section is that the innocent partners cannot ibe paid until all persons submitting claims have been fully compensated. H in fact the persons defrauded have been paid by the innocent partners, there is no claimant against the Fund and the innocent partners 'cannot Ibe 'compensated. The amendment is designed to overcome this diffkulty.

Clause 4 amends sub-section (3) of section 77 of the Act,which requires the ·council of the Law Institute in certain 'cases to refer an audit report, obtained in relation to the accounts of a solicitor, to an accountancy organization ·where it appears that the conduct of an auditor should be investigated. 'Frequently, it would also be desirable to forward the repor.t to the Companies Auditors Board, but the section does not enable the council of the Law Institute to do so. The amendments Icontained in this clause are intended to· overC'OIne the difficulty.

'Section 95A of the Act empowers the 'Supreme Court in the circumstances set out in the section, on the application of the council of the Law IInstitute, to order that a dishonest law clerk shall not be employed by a solicitor except with the permission of the council. It has happened that dishonesty of a law clerk has been discovered otherwise than in the 'Circumstances mentioned in the section, and the purpose of the amendment contained in clause 5 is to

Forests (Softwood Timber [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Agreement) Bill. 1981

enable an appHcation to be made to the Icourt ,where dishonesty of a law clerk !becomes apparent otherwise than on conviction of the person concerned or as the result of proceedings before the statutory committee or in the exercise of the council's powers under .the Act.

Clause 6 Icontains a series of amendments of Division 8 of Part V. of the Act, which deals with the appoint'ment of receivers and related rna tters. lIn a number of provisions of this Division the words "court" and " a Judge" have been used as if they were interchangeable but, on the strict interpretation of the provisions, that is not the position. The purpose of the amendments is to enable either the ,court or a Judge thereof to deal with the various matters specified in the amended provisions.

Finally, paragraph (e) of clause 6 repeals an expression in sub-section (2) of section 1 04 which is unnecessary because sub-section (2) of section 64 of the Act provides that, in determining the amount payable out of the Solid tors' Guarantee Fund in respect of defalcations of any solicitor, sums for ,which the Fund is subsequently reimbursed shall be disregarded.

The effect of these unrelated amendments is to improve the working of this Act. The problems have been discovered in pra'ctice and they ought to be remedied. I commend the Bill to' the House.

On the ,motion of the Hon. ARCH.}BALD TODD (!Melbourne West Province), the delbate 'was adjourned.


FORESTS (SOFTWOOD TIMBER AGREEMENT) BILL.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-1 ,move-

That ,this Bill be now read a second time. This is an important measure inasmuch as it aims at ensuring that the produce of our State forests ,is adequately and economically used. It

will also assist in the establishment of an important decentralized industry in the Ballarat area which will employ initially 150 men and ultimately 300. The specific purpose of the Bill is to ratify an agreement between the Forests Commission and A. V. Wehl Industries Limited. The agreement is very si1mHar in .format to that between the Forests Com,mission and Australian Paper Manufacturer.s Li'mited, which related mainly to Hmber in the Gippsland area. This Bill relates to areas of forest w-ithin a radius of 30 m'iles of the Bal'larat raHway station.

Basically, the terms of the agreement are set out in the schedule to the Bill and provide that for a period of 20 years the Forests Commission will supply softwoO'd pulpwood and thinnings to the company. The company manufactures ba throom and kitchen furniture by bonding laminated plastic to particle board. The board will be manufactured ,in the Ballarat area, and I understand that construction of the factory has already commenced.

The agreement runs for a term of 20 years and, for the first 10 years, the company will be obliged to take 90 per cent. of the amount specified, and after that period the minimum quantity may be reduced to 75 per cent. of the amount specified in the agreement. For the first 5 years of the agreement, the royalty payable shall be the rates set out in the schedule to the agreement. They range from 40 cents to 62 cents depending on whether the timber comes from the Ballarat, Beaufort, Castlemaine, Creswick, Daylesford, Macedon or Trentham forest districts.

Clause 16 of the agreement sets out the company's obligation to take 90 per cent. of the minimum annual supply of softwood available to it. The minimum annual supply is set out in clause 1 of the agreement and varies from 2 million super feet in the first year up to 16 million super feet for the final 5 years of the agreement. I understand that in the first 15 years, the company will take all

1982 Fire Brigades [CQUNClL.] (Contributions) Bill.

the softwood timber that the Commission is able to produce and will also obtain additional quantities frOom the Ballarat Water Comlmissioners plantations.

It is pleasing to note that the establishment of this industry will guarantee a complete market for the Commissioners plantations during the period of the agreement. Another pleas,ing aspect is that the material which will be used by the company will be largely thinnings and offshoots-timber which, in bygone years, has been wasted. Clause 14 provides that the company shall not be bound to' accept any softwood timber which-

(a) is not sound clean and free from rot doze blue stain and charcoal;

(b) is not sufficiently straight for the manufacturing processes for the time being employed in the industry;

(c) is less than six feet in length or such other minimum length as is agreed to from time to time by the Commission and the Company; or

(d) is less than three inches or more than fifteen inches in sectional dimension under bark.

The description of the timber that will be used, the quantity that will be made available by the Commission and the price that will be paid during the period of the agreement indicate that careful consideration has been given to the agreement by both parties. It is in the interests of Ballarat, of decentralization in general and of the Forests Comm,ission that the agreement should be validated by both Houses of Parliament. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West Province), the debate was adjourned.


FIRE BRIGADES (CONTRIBUTIONS) BILL.

The House went into Committee for the further consideration of this Bill.


Discussion was resumed of clause 2, relating to the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Act.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-Progress was repQrted on clause 2 to consider a number of drafting amendments which, at that stage, the Parliamentary Draftsman believed would be necessary. A closer examination reveals that the a,mendments are not really necessary and therefore the Government proposes that the Bill should be accepted by the Committee in its present form.


The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

MOTOR CAR BILL. The debate (adjourned from Nov

ember 19) on the motion of the Hon. R. J. Hamer (Minister for Lo'cal Government) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne N orth Province).-This Bill comes before the House at a time when the carnage 'On the road has never been greater. Only last weekend, fifteen persQns were slaughtered on our roads, most of them youngsters. This is particularly sad when they have so much to live for. For some reason, many young people buy motor cars and then appear to try to shorten their lives as quickly as possible. With this in view, the Road Safety Committee made a number 'Of recommendations in regard to roadworthiness of vehicles,and this Bill deals with at least three of those recommendations.

The first group of amendments relates to roadworthiness certificates in the case of cars sold to used car dealers. The Committee pointed out that a person who normally sells a car to another person is required to produce a roadworthiness certificate that has been issued within the preceding 30 days. When a person sells

Motor Car [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Bill. 1983

a vehicle to a used car yard or places it in a yard for sale or return, it is not necessary for the person to procure a roadworthiness certificate Nevertheless, that car can be taken by an intending buyer on a trial run for anything from a few hours to a few days. A car in a bad state of repair may have no hope of passing a roadworthiness test. Frequently, owners of used-car yards and their employees drive the cars from the yard, although they may not pass roadworthiness tests.

As recommended by the Road Safety Committee, it is proposed that cars which are presented for sale in a used car lot shall not be taken onto tihe road unless a roadworthiness certificate has been obtained for them within the previous 30 days. In this case the Government has gone a little further than the recommendation of the Road Safety Committee; it is proposed to prohibit the owner or employees of a used-car firm from taking such vehicles onto the road. An eJrception is 'made if they are taking a vehicle on a test run for the purpose of obtaining a roadworthiness certificate. This -is an important provision which has resulted from the recommendations of the Road Safety Committee.

Another recommendation made !by the Com-mittee relates to cars that are presented to licensed vehicle testers for the purpose of obtaining roadworthiness ,certificates, but are not granted such 'cerHfi·cates. At present, although the vehicle has, for instance, bald lyres, the owner -may take it away and drive it on the roads indefinitely. Unless it is caught in a spot cheick by the police, there is no way of dis-covering that the vehicle is unroadworthy. The Road Safety Committee recommended that when a caris presented to a licensed tester he should make a note of the name and address of the owner and the registered number of the vehicle. I agree with that recom-mendation. However, the weakness in the Bill is that it is proposed to enlarge the

regulation-making power to cover this point by regulation. After paragraph (f) of section 21 H of the principal Act it is proposed to insert the following paragraph:-

(fa) making and maintaining records with respect to the presentation examination and testing of motor cars and trailers presented to licensed testers for examination and :test.

i see no reason why the Bill should not provide straight out that it should be mandatory for the licensed tester, before looking at the vehicle, to 'write down the name and address of the owner, the registration number, the mileage and the engine number of the vehicle. If he subsequently finds that the vehicle is unrO'adworthy, there will be some record of the vehicle which otherwise :might be driven on the roads for an indefinite period. This is a weakness, and instead of -making provision in the regulations it would be a simple matter to cover this point in the Bill. I shall not feel 'comfortable that the recom-mendation of the Road Safety Committee in this respect has !been implemented until the regulation is put into effect. I am somewhat apprehensive that the Committee's recommendation may ibewatered down to some extent.

Another recommendation of the Road Safety Committee was for a policeman whO' saw a parked vehicle which was obviously unroadworthy to place on it a notice requiring the owner to obtain a roadworthiness -certificate. All honorable members see parked around the city or being driven on the roads vehicles whkh are unroadworthy; yet the policeman on the beat is not encouraged to' take action in regard to such vehicles. At present, the police have no power to do anything about unroadworthy vehicles that are parked on the road. The proposed amendment ,will allow a police offker, who may be patrolling the parking area outside the Melbourne Cricket Ground on a football grand final day, for example, to place notices O'n vehicles which he considers to be unroadworthy.

1984 Motor Car [COUNCIL.] Bill.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-He will be pretty busy.

The Bon. J. M. WALTON.-That is so. lean think 'Of no better or quicker means of ascertaining how many unroadworthy vehicles there are in Victoria. Perhaps it would be a good idea if officers 'Of some Government Departments which have some connexion with traffic-such as the Transport Regulation BDardwere permitted to report unroadworthy vehkles. Such reports would be subsequently followed up by the police. The Bill 'contains a number of other amendments, some of which are of a minor nature. One amendment deals with the case of an interstate driver who has held a probationary licence in another State for some time. H he applies for a driving licence in Victoria, his probationary experience in the other State will be taken into account. This is a reasonable provision. I should like the :Minister to explain why it is proposed to deal by regulatiDn with the question of vehicles that are presented to a Hcensed tester fDr roadworthiness checks and why the Government has not included a provision in the Bill to cover this point. I indicate that members of the Labor Party offer no objection to the passage of the Bill.

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL ('Western Province) .-1 have the honour to be a member .of the Road Safety Com'mittee and, having served for only a short period, I am pleased that the Government has accepted three recommendations made by it. Members of the Committee have devoted much time and thought to the question of road safety. This is a subject which is exercising the minds of all Australians today, and all possible steps must be taken to reduce the road toll.

Many persons, including farmers, use old vehicles and do not pay sufficient attention to their roadworthiness. Since iI have been a member of the Road Safety Committee I have become more conscious of this fact, and believe there are many vehicles

on the roads which should be subjected to roadworthiness tests. It is a big job to keep a vehkle completely road-worthy, but all steps must be taken to reduce the road toll. The Bill contains many small provisions, but they are important, and I congratulate the Government on bringing in this ,measure, which has the support of members of the Country Party.

The Hon. W. G. FRY (Higinbotham Province) .---..,1 support the measure. It brings up to date certain outmoded provisions and imposes a realistic charge to meet administrative 'costs in regard to vintage cars. It also con tains certain ,measures connected with the attainment of greater safety on the roads, a subject which 'concerns me as a ,member of the Road Safety Committee. As Mr. Walton said, 'members of the Committee have given much thought to this question.

Concerning special modifications of motor cars, at page 8 of its report, the Road ,Safety Committee stated-

1.5.3. The Committee is concerned that vehicles are being modified without regard for manufacturers' specifications and the present legislation. Common alterations are an increase in power output of engines and modifications to suspensions and wheels of vehicles not manufactured to withstand the additional stress of speed and manoeuvring to which they are later subjected.

1.5.4. The Committee is aware that improvements have been made to motor vehicle design by competent persons but it considers that the public must be protected from :the over-zealous but often incompetent enthusiast.

This raises the point that this Bill does not quite catch up with such persons. The Australian design rules cover 22 items which lay down standards for ibrakes, suspensions and so on. This ·measure does not actually cover vehicles which have been modified, and T hope future legislation will take care of this facet.

As Mr. Walton and ,Mr. Mitchell said, three recommendations of the Road Safety Committee have been included in this Bill. However, it stops short on one particular matterthe compulsory inspection of vehicles


for road worthiness. Some 30 per cent. of ,motor vehicles in Victoria are inspected for roadworthiness, which leaves the bulk of vehicles' not inspected in any way although they are on the roads. :Members of the Road Safety Committee examined the position in New South Wales, and a~though there are 'more vehicles in that State, under the Icompulsory inspection system in 1964-65, 42,332 vehicles 'were put off the roads until defects were remedied. In 1965-66 the number increased to 42,449, and in 1966-67 a total of 47,303 vehicles did not meet the simple test applied under the New South Wales system. This test consists of an examination of the lights, the steering, the tyres, the brakes, through visibility, the windscreens, and so on. It seems that when the Committee examined the position it found that approximately 2 per cent. of all acddents were caused by unroadworthy vehicles. That means that in Victoria possibly twenty lives could have been saved if this type of legislation had been introduced. Overseas figures put the proportion of unroadworthy vehicles on the road as high as 11 per cent. However, I am pleased to know that the door has not been shut on these proposals, and I hope they will be implemented at some stage.

Mr. Walton pointed out that the Bin allows for the inspection of vehicles when the owners are not present. This is a step in the right direction. Many motor cars which are not inspected should be inspected, and under this Bill it will be possible to inspect them in the absence of the owners. I understand that 70 per cent. of vehicles never come under surveillance, but it will be possible to inspect them in the future. This will mean that many of the more obvious defects will be remedied.

Mr. Walton also stated the concern of the Road Safety Committee about the issue of roadworthiness certificates for cars in used car yards. I am happy to see such a provision in the Bill because there have been many

cases of cars with defects coming from used car yards and causing fatal accidents. A recent case was in Ballarat.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-That is one of the many reasons why cars are sold.

The Hon. W. G. FRY.-That is so. Some of the recommendations of the Committee may be difficult to implement because there are honest men as well as rogues selling used cars. Under what is proposed in the Bill, before a man can drive a car home to ensure that the battery remains charged he must obtain a roadworthiness certifi'cate for the vehicle, and this may make things difficult for used car dealers. However, the matter has been brought to the attention of the authorities, and I propose to say no more about it.

The Hon. R. W. MAY.-Does Mr. Fry think a working man will be able to afford a car in the future?

The Hon. W. G. FRY.-Many seem to be able to afford t,wo 'cars, but I do not know what the position .is with farmers. I ,am pleased to support the Bill because it represents a step forward in our attempts to reduce the carnage on the road. Its provisions can be justified on economics alone. In Great Britain in 1959, the bill for caring for victims of road accidents was equal to the appropriations for each of the three defence services. I understand that the amount was in the vicinity of £300 million. The corresponding amount in Victoria is $110 million and a simple saving of 2 per cent. would therefore justify the Bill. I have great pleasure in supporting the measure.


committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 (Registration of motor

cars and trailers). The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister

for Local Government) .-Later I propose to ask that progress be reported because I have two amendments being


prepared and I am sure the other parties would like to examine them before th~y are debated. In any case, I should lIke to confer with the Chief Secretary, who is in charge of the Bill, on one prDposal put forward by Mr. Walton. It was that instead of the Bill empowering the making of regulations on certain m'atters connected with roadworthiness certificates, this pow'er should actually be spelled out in the legislation. I can g~ve a preliminary reason why the BIll has been drafted in this way. I refer to the requirement that a licensed tester to whom a vehicle is presented even for a cursory examination shall make a record of the name and address of the owner and the registered number of the vehicle so that it can be followed up if in fact he refuses to give a certificate.

Mr. Walton knows that the whole system of applying for and giving a roadworthiness certificate is set out in section 21 H of the MotDr Car Act. It gives the Governor in Council power to make regulations over a wide range, but it does 'comprehend the whole system. Therefore, at least it would be appropriate to put this other requi'rement, which refer,s to the equipment to be used in the testing of motor cars, the prescribed standard of training and competence of testers, the manner of testing and so on, in this part of the Act.

It is not unreasonable to say that the proposed new provision is of a like nature. This is only a preliminary observation as to' why the Parliamen tary Draftsman has drafted the provision in this way. It does not portray any reluctance by the Government to implement the recommendations of the Road Safety Committee. In fact, those recommendations will be implemented in the way in which the Committee suggested. However, I shall confer with the Chief Secretary to determine whether an amendment should be introduced to put the requirement specifically in the Act.


Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Fry also supported the Bill. Mr. Fry mentioned another recommendation of the Road Safety Committee which related to modi.fied cars. That matter is being conSIdered. I take it that Mr. Fry was ·concerned with the conversion of cars to " hot rods " and the ,making of other types of "improvements ".

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Improvements?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I put the word "improvements" in inverted 'com1mas. Frequently the i,mprovement takes the form of an increase in horsepower with nO' corresponding increase in braking power, and that is what the Road Safety Committee had in mind. The recommendation of the Committee is designed not to prohibit modifications of motor vehicles but to ensure that when there is a move away from the manufacturer's specification the car should still remain safe.

The Hon. S. R. McDoNALD.-What is needed is a matching increase in brain power.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I agree that that would be the greatest possible improvement, but it would be. difficult to legislate for it. Mr. Fry also referred to a recommendation relating to annual inspections of vehicles similar to that which applies in New South Wales. This is also under consideration. One 'Of the important things to ensure is that it is done properly; this matter has been of continual concern to the authori-' ties in New South Wales, and the Victorian authorities would need to be concerned about it. If nothing else, the present system of licensed testers throughDut Victoria has had the effect of establishing who are reliable and who 'are less reliable and Imay .form a go'Od foundation for the issue of licences in the future.

In order that I may confer with' the Chief Secretary and to allow honorable members to examine the amendments which have been circulated, I suggest that progress be reported.

Progress was reported.

Abolition of Capital [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Punishment Bill. 1987

ABOLITION OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT BILL.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-1 move-

That the proposals contained in this Bill be referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee for examination and report.

In sUbmitting this motion for consideration by the House, I am enjoined, on a matter which is noOnpolitical but which touches the administration of justice, to break away from some of the asphyxiating atmosphere of a purely political debate on party lines. A matter such as this should not be susceptible to the political whims of the time.

In asking the House to vote for this moOtio.n, I ought to' say that an examlination by the Statute Law Revision Committee or any o:ther bDdy, whether it is a Select ClOmmittee 'Of Parlia'ment or a board of inquiry, ·would be equally 'acceptable to -me. However, I have read that the Premier has vetoed such a move as I nDW invite the House to. vote for. I hope lam wrong, but I presume the Premier's party 'wHo} noOt let him dDwn. That lis a pity because there are 'many people who are just as strongly in favour 'Of retaining -oapital punishment and just as sincere 'in their views as I am in asking the House to abolish it. All over the world experience has shown tha:t wherever there has been an investigation linto this questiDn outside Parliament by either a judidal body or a bo.ard of inquiry the result has been death to the death penalty. I do not kno.w-perhaps the House might apply its mind to this-of any bo.ard of inquiry anywhere in the world which examined the problem of capital punishment and ca'me up with a repoOrt in itavo.ur of it.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Did not Tasmania decide to retain lit 'after an inquiry by a Select Co.mmlittee?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Not as far as I am aware. As I have said, 1 speak subject to oorrection on that pDint. Of course, las hono.rable ·members are aware, Df the British inquiries

r.:- .

the Select Committee of the HDuse of Com,mons in 1930 recomlmended the aboOlition .of capital punishment and in the late 1950s the Gowers Committee ,made a sli'milar recommendation. II note that nDW the Leader of the CDnservative Party in Britain, 'where 'moves are said to be afDot :to re-'introducecapita'l punishment, has wisely said, "Do. noOt ,let it get back linto the political arena because prima'rily it should not be a matter to be decided according to your politics". I ,think Mr. Nicol made that point very deaIily last week.

I submit to the House that the -case for an independent examination is overwhel:ming. It is not a novel prlOposiNon. Under ,this Government -I do not say this in an unkindly fashion-there have been 'mDre inquide,s----Royal ODmmissions and boards of inqui;ry-than under any other Government in the past 50 years. I dO' not think 'any Imatter is more -worthy 'Of a Royal Oom'm,ission than a -coll's,ideration of this point of view, which every now and then splits the com;munity ,in t'woO and arouses all klinds of emotions. That is not a good thing.

In Victoria, there have been Royal Com-missions on a number of matter-so It took a Royal Com-misslion nearly two years to deCiide something -which every other country lin the 'world knew would have to happen in VictDria some day, name,ly, that the supply of liquor should not be prohibited after 6 p.'m. AU the mateflial on which that finding was based was weB known to every member of the Ho.use, but the Cabinet felt that there should be al1 inquiry, and we had a most expensive Dne. The Commission came up -w'ith the flight answers, a knighthood fDllowed, and the appropriate legislation went throOugh. This Government had to decide whether or not punters should lose their hardearned wages by backing racehorses in the system that then obtainedthrough starting-price bookmakersor -whether they should be persuaded or compel1led to lose their 'money to

1988 Abolition of Capital [COUNCIL.] Punishment Bill.

the Government itself. A Royal Com'mission ,sat {tor about a year and solemnly reported that, of course, ,it would be much better for the punter to lose his money by paying it to a TotaHzabor Agency Board. Congvatulations followed all round on that Ireport. But ilf one tries to get this Government to inquire into the quality .of >life, ,into poverty, it ~s a different thing.

The Han. H. M. HAMILToN.-Are you suggesting that the inquiries were a waste ,of Hme?

The Han. J. W. GALBALLY.-Not at all. I am saying that the administraNon of justice is a far worthier subject for inquiry than booze and betting. 'I see that Imy remarks have caused ,consternati0'n; I regret that I used strong !language. Capital punishment is only one aspect of the adm'inistration of justice in the criminal law. The ,cri,minal law is largely the heritage of the feudal system-rogues and vagabonds, felonies, mlisdemeanouTs and whipping posts. All these things were designed for an agrarian Icommunity. This 'was before the industrial revolution-motor cars, ,the st0'ck exchange, company law, and so on. I submit to the House that in the ,interests of justice the whole of the oviminal law is ripe for a reVliew. I mean justice in the widest sense-not only the administration of the law but sooial justice. I do not want to horrify the House again, but that is largely ,what keeps the poor from murdering :the rioh-proper and adequate restraints in society.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-That is a little outside the motion.

The PRESIDENT (the Ho.n. R. W. Garrett).-The honorable 'member is speaking on linquiries in general, but I agree that perhaps his rem'arks are toQO genevat

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.What is happening now is that the Government has an " exclusive brethren" aUitude. "Oh no", says the Premier, after a somewhat unkind reference to me and my role in relation to capital punishment. I shall

not elaborate on that point; I ,am used t'O it ; I have had t0' put up 'with such remarks for a long time. Over the years, too much attention has been given in the criminal law to the wrongdoer and not enough to the victim. It is time that we looked at that aspect also. I think the House has heard me speak long enough on this Bill to realize that I have no sympathy whatever for the murderer. All I believe is a simple proposition that society should be able to protect itself from the murderer other than by taking his life, just as I believe it is no longer necessary to have the torture chamber, the rack and the whipping post.

I'll truth this Government does not want an 'inquiry ibecause it fears a report would be unfavourable to its much to be deplored habit of selecting one 'murderer ,every few years or 'So and saying, "You are for the gaHows". The Government should remember that the end never really justifies the 'means. While it Irs true to slay that history lis largely a coHection of 'crimes, ,f-ollies and 'misfortunes of ,mankind, I do not see the past just as a depressing chamber of horrors. I beliieve Imanywonderf.u1 men thr0'ughoQut history have shown the Hght t'O the future, and t0' that extent there has been a civHized heritage to draw upon.

H lis true that lOur ~orefathers reasoned with instruments of torture, that they believed in the logic of fire and sword, the lash and the gallows. But the civilized heritage of the past ought to help us to readjust our thinking on crime and punishment because, while we slaughter the young on our roads in a most apalling fashion, we also slaughter them in the system of jusNce ,in the s'ense that we send young boys to gaol and S0' on and make criminals out of them. It is true to say that crime is 'On the increase in 'most civilized communities.

The PRESIDENT (the HOon. R. W. Garrett).-The honorable ,member is getNng somewhat wide of the 'motion.


The ,Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.-I u~ge the House to accept the motion as .it stands because I believe that one of the 'most pressing problems in modern society is ,cr:i'me and lits proper punishment.

The sitting was suspended at 6.29 p.m. until 8.3 p.m.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-If there were any virtue in holding an inquiry into the question of capital punishment, I certainly would not think the matter should be referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee. The tone of the debate indicates that there are arguments for and against capital punishment. It w'Ould be true t'O say that most people hold definite opinions, and that each of the various political parties has a policy concerning the matter. The Statute Law Revision Committee, as constituted, is comprised of an equal number of representatives from each party in this Parliament, and those honorable members would reflect the policies 'Of their parties. It would be most undesirable for a committee of this character to be involved in a subject of this nature, where the views of parties and individuals are fairly firm. The purpose of the Statute Law Revision Committee-as its name implies-is to inquire intO' particular matters regarding the statute law, and it would not be proper for the committee to inquire into a subject upon which definite views and policies are held within the parties.

I conclude as I commenced by saying that if there is any virtue in having an ,inquiry it 'certainly ,should not be ,conducted by a 'cO'mmittee such as the IStatute Law Revision CO'mmittee 'as at present c'Onstituted. lIherefore, ,I hope the House will not refer to that Committee a subject about which there is a wide difference of 'Opinion, !both in the minds of lindividuals and in the policies of the parties concerned.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North - Eastern Province). - The Country Party does not subscribe to the proposal contained in Mr. Galbally's motion. When the Bill was being debated during the secondreading stage, as a representative of the CO'untry Party, I suggested that it was the responsibility of the Government to set up what could be termed a judicial inquiry into the ambit of the criminal law. Mr. Galbally suggested that imprisonment for life should be substituted for capital punishmen t. As the Leader 'Of the House has rightly said, irrespective of party, the matter is one of high policy. I do not consider that the subject of capital punishment should be referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee.

The Country Party has always felt, with some justification, that not only the matters referred to in the Bill, but many other aspects of criminal law could be investigated and reported upon. Such an investigation should be instituted by the Government of the day, which is the only body in a competent position to establish it. If the Government sees fit to investigate the matter and report back to Parliament, the Country Party will be prepared to have a look at the position at that stage. It is a matter for the Government of the day to bring before the House those matters which it considers are in need 'Of reform in our statute law, particularly in relation to the criminal c'Ode.

Most of the penalties listed in the criminal code have existed for many years, and it might be said that we have come a long way towards what might be called criminal reform. If the House accepts that principle, the whole ambit of the criminal code should be examined by those who are competent to do so. Honorable members will agree that even amongst eminent Judges and jurists of our State there are differences of opinion in relation to this subject. The matter

1990 Abolition of Capital [COUNCIL.] Punishment Bill.

should be placed on a proper basis ; therefore, the Country Party does not intend to supp'Ort the motion.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD (Doutta Galla Province). - The motion presented to the House by Mr. Galbally is a matter of great importance and, while on the surface it is admitted that an inquiry by the Statute Law Revision Committee is probably not the best form of inquiry, it is unfortunate that no better inquiry is being offered by the Government. It might be asked whether at this juncture any form of inquiry is necessary. There has never been an inquiry of any character into capital punishment in this State, and it is a question of whether the time in our history has come when some form of inquiry should be held.

If the Government were willing to appoint a Supreme Court Judge as a Royal Commission, or board of inquiry, no 'One would be happier than Mr. Galbally and other members of my party; but that is not being offered. That is the whole trouble. The suggestion embodied in the motion now under discussion was put forward by Mr. Galbally in the hope that it would at least offer some solution to what is an impasse. The Bill was debated by the House 'On Wednesday last and on the following day the Premier announced in the press that ,an inquiry would not be held. Frankly, I should have thought that as the Minister of Agriculture had asked for notice on the matter, Mr. Galbally's n'Otice of motion w'Ould be examined with a view to the Government arriving at a decision. I thought that was the purpose of the adjournment of the debate and the notice of motion. It is unfortunate that the Premier seems to have taken upon himself the role of indicating that no inquiry will be held. I say frankly that 'my Leader seems frequently to have rubbed up the Premier the wrong way.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-That is what I am here for, I hope.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.That may be true, nevertheless the point is that the Premier made his announcement without waiting for a report from the Leader of the House, his Ministers, or any 'Other members of his party. In my view, he made the public announcement purely because Mr. Galbally had launched the proposition.

That is not the light in which members of my party were hoping the ma tter would be discussed. It had been hoped that within the confines of the Statute Law Revision Committee party opinions w'Ould be set aside and members of the Committee would seek to discuss the matter and analyse it fairly and honestly and at whatever depth they could. The argument presented by the Leader 'Of the House and Mr. Swinburne is that discussion on the matter should be removed from a political atmosphere. That can be understood and one can accept that proposition, but in the final essence Parliament makes the decision and that must always remain the position. However, that does not preclude others from discussing all other aspects of the matter than the political level. That is the purpose of the committee system in Parliament-to discuss and analyse and determine all the issues on a nonpolitical basis. It is then left to Parliament to finally decide the matter.

I was interested in Mr. Swinburne's observation that Judges introduce a non-political atmosphere. It has always been the feeling of 'Our judiciary-Supreme Court Judges in particular-that they never want to be associated with a topic or inquiry -into anything of a political character. They have always made that point, and in 'One case refused to make a Judge available to investigate a matter which was believed to be of a political nature.

One can safely say that the Judges would not discuss what was considered to be a political matter. Honorable members cannot have this both ways. They cannot say that this is a


political matter and at the same time suggest that it should be inquired into by a Supreme Court Judge, when the Judges of that Court have said that they do not want to be associated with matters of a political nature. The House must make up its own mind. I regret that we have reached this stage on this Bill. If we are all honest we should realize, as other countries have, that a change in the law is required.

I am probably the only member of the 1949 Statute Law Revision Committee still in Parliament. That Committee inquired into the provisions of a Bill to amend the Crimes Act. There was no consideration at that time of capital punishment for the crime of murder because that was not referred to in the Bill. However, there was provision in it to do away with capital punishment for other crimes. As Mr. Galbally says, the Bill provided that rape should no longer be punishable by capital punishment. I cannot remember the names of all the honorable members who sat on that Committee, but no doubt we were twelve good men and true. Then, our duties were honorary, and it could be assumed that we had no monetary interest in any decision we made. The Committee dealt with a tremendous number of crimes, but not, as I have indicated, the crime of murder.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-The motion under discussion relates to the proposals in the Bill being referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee; Mr. Merrifield should not deal with the subject matter of the Bill.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD. -All I intended to convey, Mr. President, is that the subject-matter of the Bill under discussion is no more political than the subject of the crimes dealt with by the Statute Law Revision Committee on a previous occasion. Consideration of them was just as political as consideration of capital punishment for murder. There was no query about what the Committee should do or what it should

inquire into. The Committee made its recommendation, and the passage of the Bill which effected various amendments to the Crimes Act was greatly expedited as a result. There was never any suggestion that the Committee dealt with the Bill in a political basis. If that was .no in 1949, why should it not be so in 1969?

I feel that some of the opposition to the motion comes from sheer prejudice. Perhaps in the fullness of time, when they gain a little more experience and become a little more sage, members of the Government party will come around. Even if they do not agree that the time has come to abolish capital punishment, they must surely agree that the time has come for an examination of this important social issue. That is what the motion proposes.

The House divided on the motion (the Hon. R. W. Garrett in the chair)-

Ayes 7 Noes 23

Majority against the motion .. 16

Mr. Galbally Mr. Merrifield Mr. O'Connell Mr. Tripovich

Mr. Bradbury Mr. Chandler Mr. Clarke Mr. Dickie Mr. Dunn Mr. Fry Mr. Gleeson Mr. Granter Mr. Grimwade Mr. Gross Mr. Hamer Mr. Hamilton

Mr. Cathie Mr. Todd

RACING

AYES.

Mr. Walton. Tellers:

Mr. Elliot Mr. Knight.

NOES.

Mr. Hewson Mr. Houghton Mr. McDonald Mr. Mansell Mr. May Mr. Mitchell Mr. Nicol Mr. Swinburne Mr. Thompson.

Tellers: Mr. Campbell Mr. Hunt.

PAIRS.

I Mr. Thorn Mr. Byrne.

(TROTTING RACING) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health), was read a first time.


PROBATE DUTY BILL. This Bill was received from the


LEGAL AID BILL. This Bill was received from the

Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government), was read a first time.

MOTOR CAR BILL. The House went into Committee

for the further consideration of this Bill.

Clause 2 was agreed to. Clause 3-Section 19 of the principal Act is hereby

amended as follows :-(a) In sub-section (1) for the expression

" $1" there shall be substituted the expression "$3";

(b) In sub-section (IA) and in sub-section (IB) for the expression "$2" there shall be substituted the expression "$5".


That the following paragraphs be added to follow paragraph (b) :-

( ) After sub-section (IB) there shall be inserted the following sub-section:-

"(Ie) Any person resident outside Victoria who desires to use for a period not exceeding 28 days a veteran or vintage motor car within the meaning of sub-sections (lA) and (IB) on a highway in connexion with official rallies organized by or under the auspices of an association approved in that behalf by the Chief Commissioner may upon application to the Chief Commissioner be supplied with a permit permitting the motor car to be so used in accordance with the conditions set out in the permit during the period, not exceeding 28 days, specified in the permit."

( ) In sub-section (2) for the expression "(lA) and (lB) " there shall be substituted the expression "(IA) (lB) or (Ie) ".

( ) In sub-section (3) for the words "the identifying number plate" there shall be substituted the words "an identifying number plate".

Paragraph (b) of clause 3 changes the fees prescribed in section 19 to be charged to owners of veteran and

vintage cars for permits for their use on highways in connexion with official rallies. The paragraphs proposed to be added to the clause will enable a person who lives outside Victoria to take part in an official veteran or vintage car rally in Victoria by enabling him to obtain a permit to use his vehicle in Victoria, under the prescribed conditions, for a period not exceeding 28 days.

Under sub-sections (IA) and (IB) of section 19 of the principal Act, any person who desires to use a veteran motor 'car on a highway between sunset and sunrise under the auspices of an association approved by the Chief Commissioner of Police js entitled, upon application to the Chief Commissioner, to be issued with an identifying number plate and a permit allowing the motor car to be used in accordance ·with the conditi'Ons set out in the permit during a period of twelve months after the issue of the permit. These sub-sections, are adequate to meet the requirements of local residents who 'wish to participate in a veteran car rally in Victoria, but they are not sufficient to allow persons from other States or from places outside Australia to take part in a big rally whkh is scheduled to be conducted next year by the Australian Bicentenary International Rally, which is part of the Captain Cook Bicentenary Celebrations.

It is proposed to hold a rally of vintage and veteran cars from Sydney to Melbourne, leaving Sydney 'On 4th April of next year and, I hope, finishing in IMelbourne on the 18th of April. Apparently, the "survivors" from this rally will take part in a further rally ;from Melbourne to Adelaide between 19th and 26th April, 1970. In other words, without any break, the participating cars will proceed on to Adelaide in another rally which is organized by the South Australian Invitation Tour.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-I understand that there will be fourteen cars from New Zealand in the rally.


The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-The information I have indicates that at this early stage 400 entries from Australia and 150 from overseas countries have been received. No doubt, there will be further applications. The rally will obviously be a large-scale affair. The purpose of the amendment is t'O fa'Cilitate the conduct of these interstate rallies by the insertion of a new sub-section (Ie) in section 19 of the principal Act. If accepted, the amendment will empower the Chief Commissioner of Police to issue a permit to any person who is resident outside Victoria to use a veteran or vintage car on a highway with official rallies organized by or under the auspices of an association approved by the Chief Commissioner.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-WiII the cars be able to travel from Sydney to Adelaide in 28 days?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-The period of 28 days applies only to the period during ·which the cars will be travelling in Victoria. Of 'course, veteran and vintage cars are maintained in such excellent condition that T am sure they will be able to travel from Sydney to Adelaide within a period of 28 days. The second amendment to this clause, which is consequential upon the amendment that I have already explained, amends sub-section (2) of section 19 of the principal Act, which will authorize the owners of veteran and vintage cars, upon application, to have their vehicles covered by third-party insurance under Part V. of the Act. The third amendment is necessary because number plates will not be issued for the cars. The Government wants as many cars as possible to participate in the rally from Sydney to :Melbourne. Vehicles in this rally will reach Melbourne two days before the commencement of the official celebrations in Victoria commemorating the date on which in 1770 Captain Cook first sighted the coast of Vi'ctoria at Cape Everard, which is now known as Point Hicks.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) .-1 do not disagree with the amendments, but I ask the Minister for Local Government whether the expression " official rally" includes the return of the participating vehkles after the rally has concluded. It is 'most unlikely that car owners will be able to send their cars to Sydney or New Zealand on ships departing from Adelaide, hence they will be required to traverse Victorian roads when travelling to either Melbourne or Sydney for this purpose. In such circumstances, will the return journey be regarded as part of the official rally?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-This matter has been considered. It is agreed that the return of a car to the place whence it came will be part of the rally. The only difficulty is that two rallies will be held and, eventually, it may be necessary to identify the vintage 'cars returning by road ,from Adelaide and crossing Victoria in the process. I shall have this matter examined. It could be over·come if a second application for a permit ,were submitted by the owner of the car. No doubt the return of the vehicle would be regarded as part of the rally.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.What Iwould be the position of a car breaking down and being garaged for some time in Victoria while repairs were carried out to it.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I think we can take it that the Chief Commissioner will not penalize veteran or vintage car owners and, if a car broke down in the circumstances envisaged by Mr. ~Merrifield, the permit would be renewed. It is all part of the rallies to get the vehicles back to Sydney or to countries overseas whence they came. II have no doubt that the Chief Commissioner, who is empowered to use his discretion to grant permits, would exercise it properly in such circumstances.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.-H it was a 'car like Genevieve it might never complete the rally.


The Hon. R. J. HAiMER.---Genevieve 'was a magnificent vehicle. I commend the amendment to the Committee.

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted.

Clause 4 (Provision applicable to the disposal of motor cars).

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-When this measure was previously under consideration, I informed Mr. Walton that 'l would discuss with the Chief Secretary sub-clause (2) , which inserts a new paragraph (fa) in section 21H of the principal Act and empowers the Governor in Council to make regulations requiring licensed testers to maintain records with respect to the presentation, examination and testing of motor cars and trailers presented to them for examination and test. 'f.he objective of the Chief Secretary is that the regulations shall cover all aspects relating to roadworthiness certificates, applications for testing, the kind of equipment to be used, and so on. Section 21 H of the principal Act empowers the Governor in Council to lay down, by regulation, all the procedural provisions relating to roadworthiness certificates, commencing with the application for a certificate right through to the granting of such certificate. It appears on examination by the Parliamentary Draftsman that this is a proper place for a provision of this type; it is not for any other purpose except for regularity.

It is the Government's intention to carry out the recom'mendations of the Committee of Road Safety and to make sure that every vehicle presented for testing, however informally, shall be reported so that the police 'can follow it up and remove unroadworthy vehicles from the road. There is no desire by the Government that the law shall not be firm and ,clear. Because of the structure of the Act, it is considered that clause 4, as drafted, is the proper way of achieving this.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) .-My point in raising this 'matter was that Parliament should indicate the lines upon which it is thinking in regard to this matter. Proibably, fro,m the Minister's explanation, the Chief Commissioner of Police will gather what is Parliament's intention, I trust the legislation will be implemented in accordance ,with these intentions.


The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .~I propose the following new clause to follow clause 9:-

AA (1) In section 91A of the principal Act for the words "the speed measuring device known as the amphometer when used in such manner and subject to 'Such conditions as are prescribed" substitute the words "the speed measuring device known as the amphometer when tested and sealed and used in such manner as is prescribed".

(2) After section 91A of the principal Act there shall be inser,ted the following section :-

"91B A certificate in the prescribed form to the effect that an amphometer has been tested and sealed in the prescribed manner, signed or purporting to be signed by a Technical Officer and by the Professor of Electrical Engineering or the Reader in Electronics at the University of Melbourne, shall without prejudice to any other mode of proof be prima facie evidence that the amphometer has been so tested and sealed." The new clause deals with the amphometer. Sub-clause (1) amends section 91A of the principal Act which refers to "the speed measuring device known as the amphometer when used in such manner and in such ,conditions as are prescribed". It is proposed to substitute for those words the words "the speed measuring device known as the amphometer when tested and sealed and used in such manner as is prescribed ". This matter has been giving trouble from time to time in the courts.

I relnember the debate in this Chamber when the ,measure relating to the amphometer was passed. Concern was expressed about the accuracy of the amphometer. I am sure that the average citizen is just as concerned as members of Parliament that this device should be


accurate. The purpose of the amendment is to write a further sa.feguard into the Act so as to make the amphometer a legal and scientific device, which can be taken into account by the IC'0Urts, provided that not 'Only it is used in the -manner prescribed, but also that it has been tested and sealed. The amendmen.t will also describe the testing and sealing in detail.

The Hon. A. K. IBRADBURY.---How often will tests take place?

The Hon. R. J. HkMER.-The device is tested and sealed before it is used.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-It could lose some O'f its accura,cy if there was a long Hme between tests.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-At present, there is no provision for the testing of the amphometer, hence this amendment represents an improvement on the existing position. It is intended that amphometers will be tested and sealed before they are put into operation. I,f they become defective, they will be repaired and tested again.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.Did the need for this amendment emerge out of a recent court ·case?

The Hon. R. J. HAlMER.-Yes; the courts must be satisfied that a scientific device of this nature is in working order.

The Hon. A. K. BRADB,DRY.-Do you not think a time should be spedfied for the retesting of amphometers, even if it were 6 months, 12 months, 2 years or 3 years? I feel that some time should be specified.

The Hon. R. J. HAiMER.--Mr. Bradbury is entitled to reassurance in that regard. I do not pretend to know the 'regulations in detail, but I believe there isa requi'rement lin the regulatiO'ns -concerning the frequency with whkh testin:g wiU be carried out. I dO' not know whether Mr. Bradbury wishes me to report progress so that the information that he seeks can be obtained but it is not

directly related t'0 the amendment which I have moved. I am prepared to undertake to obtain the information for Mr. Bradbury and supply it to him at an early date.

Sub-clause (2) of the new clause provides for a certificate in the prescribed form to the effect that an amphometer has been tested and sealed in the prescribed -manner, signed by a technical officer and by the Professor of Electrical Engineering or the Reader in Electronics at the University of IMelbourne. If that is done, and the scientific instrument is certified, the reading of the amphometer is to be taken as prima facie evidence that the amphometer has been tested and sealed; in other words, in court proceedings it will not be necessary to call somebody to give evidence that the sealing and testing has taken place at the university.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North:Province) .-The amendments which are now being considered are new, and honorable members have not had time to study them or to report on them to their respective parties. I believe they need closer examination. Mr. Bradbury asked, by interjection, the interval between testings of the amphometer. I imagine that this subject was originally raised in a court by someone asking how long ago a particular instrument had been tested and whether it was possible for it to have since become out of order. I do not believe the sealing of the instrument is sufficient, because the instruments are transported from one place to an'0ther and could be mishandled and, as a consequence, be inaccur.ate. In my view, the mere fact that it has been signed, sealed and tested is not good enough to justify the insertion of this provision in the measure. I ask the Minister to agree to the Committee's reporting progress until next Tuesday. As the Bill has already passed through the Legislative Assembly, a lengthy delay will not be involved. After


having given it proper consideration, honorable members will then be able to pass this measure.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province) .-1 support Mr. Walton in his contention that the mere fact that amphometers have been sealed and certified as to their accuracy is not enough. Their accuracy cannot be guaranteed unless they are checked at regular intervals. As amphometers 'are being used extensively throughout the State every day, their accuracy must be beyond doubt. People who are prosecuted for speeding on the evidence of amphometer readings should be satisfied that every care has been taken to ,check the accuracy of the instrument and that a test has been conducted on it within a reasonable period prior to the hearing of their cases.

Members of the Country Party have no intention of delaying the passage of the Bill, but believe they are entitled to study the amendment which is now proposed. We should like to know whether provision for retesting amphometers is to be incorporated in the regulations or whether it is .already in them. Our view is that the Act should provide that amphometers must be tested at specific intervals to ascertain whether varia tions can occur.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-1 have no objection to adopting that course of action. As I have said, whatever is the period within which amphometers have to be tested and retested-I believe it is six months, but I shall verify that---all that this amendment does is to provide safeguards in the Act to 'ensure that the sealing and testing is, as it were, evidenced by a certificate. The court will then have prima facie evidence that the scientific device has been tested and sealed by competent people, and it can then more safely rely on the evidence of the machine. 1 suggest that progress be reported.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) .-1 should like consideration of the Bill to be adjourned until Tuesday next, because the parties meet on that day. As 1 have said, it will not delay the passage 'Of this measure greatly, because it has already been passed by the Assembly. 1 should like to have an opportunity to report on this Bill to a full party meeting.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-1 have no objection to its being adjourned until next Tuesday. 1 am prepared to agree to progress being reported so that I may ascertain the answer to Mr. Bradbury's question and obtain any further information that is required. I agree that the amendment 1 have proposed is an addition to the Bill and was not considered by another place. It is only fair that time should be allowed for consideration of the matter.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD (Doutta Galla Province) .-If one assumes that the instrument can go wrong, and that tests are required from time to time, it is my view that, in the interests of justice, it is essential that a certificate should be given after the date on which the offence is said to have occurred. If that were to be done, it would seem to me to be necessary to withdraw the instruments from time to time to ensure they were tested before a batch of offences were heard in the courts.


GAS BILL. The debate (adjourned from No

vember 11) on the motion of the Hon. V. O. Dickie (Minister of Health) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province).-The Labor Party supports this measure. Modern man has m,ade himself largely dependent upon the burning of fuel, supplies of which appear to be almost

Gas [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Bill. 1997

inexhaustible. A high level of fuel consumption is not a prerequisite of development, of course, but a consequence of it.

I was amazed to hear the Minister say that the problems associated with the conversion of appliances to natural gas have been largely overcome. In the Sun News-Pictorial of the 19th November, in an article headed ". Pressleys are stewing over converSIon confusion ", the difficulties being experienced by a consumer were described. The article stated-

Mrs. Tom Pressley has a shiny new gas wall oven with controls that her husband a research scientist, says a person nearly needs a pilot's licence to operate. . But fo~ six months it has been standing In the kItchen of the family's new home in Belvedere-avenue, Glen Waverley.

The trouble began on May 25 when the house was connected to natural gas.

The Pressleys were told by the Gas and Fuel Corporation that the interior of the new stove would have to be converted, and they could have their choice of an oven or griller operating until then-not both.

The article went on to say that Mr. Pressley's oven was still out of action.

I recently asked the Minister of Agriculture when it was expected that conversion of grillers and ovens, which earlier caused problems, would be completed and, in reply, the Minister stated that conversion of wall ovens in sections already converted was scheduled for completion by the end of January. Many people have suffered great inconvenience from the problems which have arisen since the commencement of conversion of appliances for use with natural gas. Complaints are received every day, and I again ask the M,inister to examine -means of overcoming the problems.

The natural pressures of growth and accommodation today add new dimensions to the task of regulating supplies of fuel. It was believed, however, tha t with the discovery of natural gas in Bass Strait the problem would be solved. I can well imagine the problems faced by the Gas Examiner in connexion with the

Session 1969.-73

regulating powers. Similar difficulties have been experienced in other countries. The provisions of the Gas Act have stood the test of time, and the Gas and Fuel Corporation has done a marvellous job in supplying manufactured gas to the people of Victoda. I believe, however, that the Act will need revision from time to time. In the United States of America, which is one of the foremost countries in the consumption of natural gas, the Federal Power Commission has found it necessary to bring its regulatory powers up to date from time to tim'e because new problems are being encountered. Victoria will find itself faced with the same problem, as it learns more from experience. Information concerning difficulties expef\ienced with natural gas is freely dis semina ted between nations, as also is the scientific knowledge which has been acquired. I hope the Gas Examiner and the Gas and Fuel Corporation will have relayed to them information from the Federal Power Commission and the Federal Power Bureau office in London.

The powers specified in this measure will be fair, just and reasonable in the interests of the public and will greatly benefit consumers. There is only one aspect which I might query in the public interest. Last week, in answer to a question regarding the siting of calorimeters, the Minister of Agriculture stated that recording calorimeters were located at Dutson and Dan'denong. It is necessary that one should be located at the city gate at Dandenong because if industries using gas are established to the east of the city gate, they will bleed off some of the gas, and this could effect the calorific value of the commodity that is supplied to the consumer.

The State Electricity Commission might decide to use natural gas for the generation of electricity---this has been done by overseas utilities-and this could also affect the calorific value of the gas supplied to homes in the metropolitan area. In those

1998 Gas [COUNCIL.] Bill.

circumstances, the domestic consumer may not receive the therms for which he .is paying. Therefore, a metering station should be established nearer to Dandenong instead of 100 miles away at Dutson. I urge the Government to seek and act upon the advice of the Gas Examiner and experts from the Gas and Fuel Corpora tion in this matter.

The public is demanding adequate planning to provide effective measures to ensure the safety of persons now and in the future. Since the introduction of natural gas, the Gas Examiner and his assistants have looked after the interests of the public. One must give him great credit for this work on behalf of the Government and in the interests of the public to ensure that the lives of people are not jeopar~ized by the use of natural gas, WhICh IS more volatile than manufactured gas.

In the future additional problems will present themselves and further am~nd~ents will be necessary to this legIslatIOn. Problems in the use and quality of natural resources will be greatly magnified, and .it is hoped that the regula tory functions of this measure will achieve some degree of success. I do not like to harp on safety, but it is imperative that the safety of the consumer should be guarded. In this connexion, one can see a domestic problem in the use of gas in the home.

The Labor Party sees no reason ~or delaying this Bill because ItS passage will strengthen the present legislation. I hope the Minister for Fuel and Power will take heed of some of my suggestions. Fl!rther legislation may be required wIth respect to the transportation of liquefied natural gas from Westernport to overseas countries and to ce?tres such as Mildura and Albury. WIth the modern refrigerated units now available, there will be no reason why liquefied natural gas should not be transported. Regulations exist for

The Hon. A. W. Knight.

the transport of volatile fuels, and these regulations should be examined in relation to the transport of liquefied natural gas.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) .-This Bill is one of a series of measures dealing with !la tural. gas since its discovery In thIS State. It is perhaps the final stage in that it relates to the use of natural gas in the home and prescribes certain standards of equipm~nt necess~ry for the safe usage of thIS commodIty. It also streamlines statutory powers relating to gas supplies and up-dates the present legislation dealing with gas supply. The Gas Regulation Act was first passed in 1933. It was amended in 1956 in regard to standards of gas and so forth. This measure provides for a monthly averaging of the calorific value of the gas supply to consumers. We presume the system of a monthly average allows for a certain variation from day to day, thus overcoming the strict requirements that would be necessary if it were handled on a daily basis.

Clauses 17 to 26 of the Bill prescribe certain standards which must be observed in the supply of natural gas. From the Minister's second-reading ~peech and answers given to questions In Parliament, it is interesting to learn that the estimated value of the two wells that are supplying natural gas is in the region of $1,600 million.

The meters used to measure this great volume of gas will need to be of a high standard and maintained at the specifications which have been laid down to retain their standard of e~ciency. T~e Country Party agrees wIth ·Mr. KnIght that a calorimeter should be sited as near as possible to where the bulk of the gas is being used, so that uniformity will be ac:hieved in the qua~ity of the gas suppbed to the consummg public.

The Country Party welcomed a statement that was made some time ago by a prominent member of the legislature of this State that natural

Gas [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Bill. 1999

gas would be cheaper at the source of supply than 200 miles distant. The honorable gentleman said that natural gas would be cheaper in Gippsland, and members from that area have looked forward with pleasurable anticipation to this becoming the policy of the Government, thus restoring to Gippsland something to' balance what it lost when the Lurgi gas plant closed. A number of the clauses in this measure relate to charges, and the Country Party hopes that sufficient elasticity exists to allow for the forecast made by the Premier to be achieved.

Members of the Country Party do not wish to delay the passage of the measure and we wish it well. No doubt further amendments will be required as time passes and the teething problems of natural gas are overcome. We support the measure.


committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 (First Schedule).

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-1 have listened with interest to the remarks made by Mr. Knight and Mr. May. Obviously, there is full concurrence in the provisions of the Bill which, as 1 said when explaining it, are-... to ensure that gas supplied to the public complies with certain standards of calorific value, purity and pressure and that gas meters accurately register the amount of gas used. Provision is also made for consumers, who are dissatisfied with the readings of their gas meter, to have it impartially tested for accuracy of registration. Mr. May has agreed with the suggestions by Mr. Knight, and I shall be happy to direct those suggestions to the attention of the responsible Minister. I always listen to' Mr. Knight with interest when he speaks on matters relating to power because 1 recall that, in his maiden speech, he spoke of harnessing the electric power of the State. Again, what he has said on this particular measure deserves further exam ina tiO'n by the

Minister responsible for the administra tion of the Act. I give Mr. Knight an undertaking that that will be done.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses and the schedules.


TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (COMPENSATION) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from September 16) on the motion of the Hon. R. J. Hamer (Minister for Local Government) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) .-The stated purpose of the Bill is to give municipalities-particularly in the area of Arthur's Seat-the opportunity to control and regulate the advance of quarries over areas of land which they hold. Although most quarry masters in the area are prepared to accept the council's decision, at least one quarry master has stated that he does not intend to honour this particular system and that he proposes to go ahead with his activities. At least, that is what the Minister stated in his explanatory second-reading speech. Members of our party indicated at that time that we were prepared to support any legislation which would control the activities of such persons. However, on examining the Bill, we find that it not only encompasses quarry masters at Arthur's Seat and elsewhere but also covers every non-conforming user in the Stateindeed, every person who has had the foresight to undertake forward planning and to buy land in excess of his existing needs. If this measure were passed in its present form, a council could draw a line and say, "That is as far as yO'u can proceed, and by the provisions of an Act of Parliament we are not required to' give yO'u cO'mpensation ".

2000 Town and Country Planning [COUNCIL.] ( Compensation) Bill.

In his explanatory speech, the Minister for Local Government said-

The original purpose of this provision was very properly to prevent the extinction without compensation of established businesses or uses of land, where those uses conflicted with a planning scheme subsequently approved.

If a person was operating legally in an area and a council required to place some restriction on his operations, it was necessary to pay him compensation. As the Minister said, this was a proper procedure. However, the Bill states that no compensation shall be payable under this Act in respect of any prohibition, restriction or regulation of the use of any land for any purpose if the prohibition, restriction or regulation relates only to a part or parts of the land which was or were not actually and directy being used for that purpose at the time of the publication in the Government Gazette of the approval of the scheme, and so on. Therefore, it does not merely separate all nonconforming users from those people who are operating in the extractive industry field; nor does it separate the quarry masters at Arthur's Seat, or in particular the gentleman who indicated that he intended to carryon his operations there which undoubtedly would impair the scenic attraction of the area to such an extent that it would become an eye-sore for ever.

Although it is necessary for quarrying operations to be undertaken and, for economic reasons to obtain roadma~ingma terials close to where they will be used, aesthetic considerations which affect our everyday living must also be considered. This Bill, as drafted, is unacceptable to members of our party. We realize that quarries are necessary, but they do become eye-sores. When one approaches any city by air, as soon as one reaches the metropolitan area one is struck by the pock-marked appearance of the countryside, particularly around airports. This is probably because the land in the close vicinity cannot be used for residential purposes or the airport was

The Hon. J. M. Walton.

located in that area because the land was cheap. This situation ,will apply to Tullamarine airport, in the vicinity of which quarries are cutting up the land to such an extent that the countryside will be unrecognizable in a few years' time.

An inquiry by the State Development Committee intO' extractive industries stated that, more particularly in closely populated residential areas, extractive industries are frequently accO'mpanied by noise, blasting, dust, flying rock,constan t road traffic, deterioration of roads; they are a danger to children, with workings too close to streets; they have inadequate fencing, resulting in damage to neighbouring houses and lowering of neighbouring land values, and with the spillage of clay O'r rock onto roads are a consequent hazard to motor traffic; they interfere with neighbouring drainage facilities through the silting-up of gutters and drains, and the inadequate drainage of disused excavations results in deep, dangerous, water-filled holes, and scarring of the landscape. One could hardly regard that as a statement which would Imake one relish the idea of having a quarry in the neighbourhood. Of course, quarry masters advance the economic argument that materials should be obtained close to where they will be used. Nevertheless, if a quarry master at Mount Martha is sending material to Tullamarine or vice versa, some authority should be able to point out that material can be obtained from an alternative source closer to' the job on which it is required. If this were done, perhaps some quarry masters would be encouraged not to extend their quarries into areas of natural scenic beauty.

I apologize to the Minister for Local Government for adopting this attitude to the Bill, because I am aware that he proposes to move certain amendments to correct the anomalies to which I have directed attention. However, I am sure that if I had referred to the proposed amendments I should have been quickly ruled out of order. Members

Town and Country Planning [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] (Compensation) Bill. 2001

of our party can only consider the Bill as it has been drafted. Unless the amendments to which I have referred are proposed by the Minister, members of our party intend to oppose the Bill.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (NorthWestern Province) .-Some 24 years ago, I had my first experience of town planning. I then understood that, over the years, variations would be necessary to meet the needs of planning along certain lines. Problems have occurred as a result of progress. Under interim development orders persons were given the opportunity either to shift or to conform, and were advised that they could not extend their operations any further. Some councils gave way under pressure. In one case, a firm which was not conforming was allowed to extend its factory, which was in the middle of a residential area. Such happenings have occurred ,in the past and will no doubt occur in the future.

I was a member of the State Development Committee which conducted an inquiry into extractive industries. Mr. Waltan mentianed the scarring that is evident when ane is flying over the metropolitan area. Many industries are carried on purely as money-making concerns without due regard to the effect they have on the countryside. I realize that some members af the Committee were subjected to pressure to allow quarry masters to. carry an their activities, althaugh I was not subjected to. such pressure. Many persons in business play the game and accept their responsibilities to. the cammunity by co-aperating with autharities Jin control. Members of the Committee found that some cantrals were not gaod enaugh; we saw stones that had been thrown through the air, cracks in buildings, and so. forth.

This Bill has been introduced by virtue of the fact that one quarry master is nat prepared to aperate in the best interests of the community and is adapting a rather selfish attitude. The Bill will cover many other people who are playing the game and

doing the right thing. I suppose its introduction would not have been necessary if the quarry master in question had restricted his operations to a certain area and if he had rehabilitated the area by planting trees. The State Development Committee saw many dnstances in which industries were ca-aperating with the result that quarry slcars on hillsides were disguised to. same extent.

Recently, the State Development Committee became aware af a quarry in the Gippsland area which cantained a pool of tar; the fencing was inadequate to keep out children, so. the quarry canstituted a danger. I read a newspaper repart a few days ago which stated that a child was drawned in attempting to. swim acrass an abandaned quarry which had filled with water. Despite all the recammendatians af the State Develapment Cammittee, same quarries have still nat been rendered safe. Of caurse, bays will endeavaur to. climb fences and take risks ; unless adequate precautians are taken, they get into. trauble. I cantend that in this case if the quarry masters had agreed to. do. samething alang the lines I suggested, the municipality wauld nat have faund it necessary to. ask the Gavernment to. intraduce this legislation.

The Country Party does not want to be hard on the quarry masters. They have had the opportunity af working in canjunction with the municipality. When I first laaked at the Bill, I thaught it was a gaod one and I still think so, but I believe it should go further than it does and apply to other commodities and nat only to stane. The definitian in the Extractive Industries Act includes stone, grit far brick-making, clay and sand. Thraughaut the metrapolitan area there are large pits from which clay is extracted. Whole mountainsides are being shifted. It is contended that the clay cannat be abtained elsewhere, but what facilities have been provided for the Mines Department to. lacate ather deposits af clay in areas where industrial and residential development

2002 Town and Country Planning [COUNCIL.] (Compensation) Bill.

would not be affected? I am wondering why the Minister wants the Bill to relate only to stone and not to other commodities.

The honorable gentleman has indicated that amendments will be necessary during the Committee stage. As a matter of fact, the Bill contains one clause and the amendments two clauses, so the amendments are twice as big as the Bill. Has the Bill been drafted hastily without its implications being examined? Does the Bill do exactly what Parliament wants it to do?

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Order! Mr. Mansell is going too far in discussing amendments which are not yet being considered.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-The Minister has circulated the amendments in his usual gentlemanly fashion because he knows that honorable members need time in which to examine them. If the Minister does a good job he should be complimented. The amendments contain a good deal of information which indicates that the Bill does not achieve exactly what is proposed. Therefore, it requires serious consideration. The objective of the Bill is good, and it is supported by the Country Party.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD (Doutta Galla Province).-This is an interesting Bill, partly because of the amendment it contains to the Town and Country Planning Act with which I have had a long association, and partly because the Minister intended that the Bill should relate more narrowly and only to quarrying. Honorable members know that the quarrying industry is facing many difficulties at present. Amendments have been made to the Mines Act, relating to minerals, for the purpose of giving back to landholders the subsurface ownership of all forms of minerals. The Labor Party disagreed with that Bill. Now the present measure is before the House. In addition, the Extractive Industries Act and the Town and Country Planning

Act contain provisions, quite apart from the present amendment, relating to quarrying. The Local Government Act also contains formidable restrictions on quarrying.

Both Mr. Walton and Mr. Mansell have spoken about the adverse qualities of quarrying, and these operations have been extremely adverse in some localities. However, the disadvantageous effect of quarrying has not always been the fault of the quarry master. Too often surrounding landholders have subdivided their land in the full knowledge that a quarry was in existence, and the people who have purchased the land have complained about the operations of the quarry.

The Leader of the House will remember that some years ago he approached me about quarrying operations in Fern Tree Gully. I proposed a wide survey of the metropolitan area to determine the quantity and quality of deposits of sand, stone, clay and gravel with a view to a master plan being prepared for the control and development of these areas. I wanted to ensure that quarry masters could be permitted to exploit economic areas and not be forced into working uneconomic propositions. At the same time I wanted to prevent encroachment on urban areas and on anything with picturesque or historic value. Such a plan was required, but unfortunately various Acts of Parliaments were in conflict.

I direct attention to the provisions of the Local Government Act relating to quarrying. They provide that anybody operating a quarry prior to 1911 has an unrestricted right to continue fully to develop the land on which the quarry is situated. Prior to 1911, the quarry master could have added to the area, but after 1911 a limit was placed on development and he was per~itted to use only the land on the title on which quarrying operations were actually carried out. In the early 1950s, the Act was amended, and a subsequent court case determined that the amendment had in effect


brought the date of 1911 forward to the 1950s and the quarry masters who had purchased land in the meantime were permitted to continue their operations. The result has been a hotch-potch.

There is an acute case at Oakleigh, but there is still no wide and general control over quarrying. The Extractive Industries Act exercises some control now but it does not have much affect on the operations of quarries already in production. The Local Government Act has the effect of limiting operations only in respect of new land. This Bill purports to widen the control to lands which were actually and directly being used for quarrying purposes. I assume that if there is a quarry hole or sandpit on part of a substantial area on one title the intention of the Bill is to limit operations to the area of the existing hole. However, the Bill may only have the effect of limiting operations to land on the same title because of the meaning of the words "actually and directly ".

Possibly in certain cases there is justification for limiting operations with a view to allowing exploitation for only a short period, but is it intended to limit operations to the hole already in existence or will it apply to a wider area and include all the land on the title? There is a need for clarification on this point. No compensation will be paid for areas which are to be zoned contrary to their use. In the main, the Town and Country Planning Act has provided for very little compensation. In fact, compensation is paid only to a nonconforming user of land which has been zoned for a purpose different from that for which it is being used and if the Board wants to move an owner off his land deliberately it has to pay compensation. Is the purpose of this Bill to extend that principle and limit compensation to the area actually in use? I shall assume that the owner has a factory and a quarry hole alongside it. It may well be that the land has been zoned for quite a different purpose to that for which it

is being used, but the owner may still have a secondary purpose attached to his industry and he may still use that land in some way but not necessarily deliberately and directly connected with the use of the other part. There~ fore, he will be debarred from obtaining compensation.

It seems to me that a hotch-potch of control will still remain. I do not blame the Minister for this; the' system has grown up because of the legislation which has been introduced, but more particularly because of the legislation relating to extractive industries. Whilst we do not oppose the Bill's proposed real intention, it seems to have wide aspects which give cause for deep reflection.

I have no associations with quarry masters and at times I have little regard for them, but I do not think the House is entitled to impose unwarranted injustices on existing cases. The specific purpose of this Bill is to impose controls over land at Dromana, but it will also apply to a wide variety of areas. Honorable members should be satisfied that it is not creating an injustice by correcting an anomaly in a historic area. Apparently one quarry master will not co-operate in this case. In a case some years ago at Camperdown, where historic hills were to be quarried, some of those involved were moved by the petitions presented by local residents and historically-minded people. The result was that to a degree the intentions of the quarry masters were curtailed or abandoned.

That -is a good spirit, but it is not all ways justified during the lifeNme of an ,individual. After all, the GoverJ?m·ent ~s:tands :for private ownership, pJ'Ilvate 'Industry and private enterprise ,in aliI its forms, and in this wo·dd ·every person is out to do the best Ifor hi,msel.f. It ,is only natural that an individual :who owns land which contains scor-ia wishes to capitallize on it. We should . not assume that such a peTson is being antli-social 'when he exercises a dght which every one of us e~er,cises in

2004 Town and Country Planning [COUNCIL.] (Compensation) Bill.

some manner or other ,in some parUcular sphere. We should divorce our ,thinking from the ,case whkh has been submlitted las a justHkation 'and cOonsider 'Only the principle of what is proposed. 'I thiink it possesses some unsatisfactory features which have not yet been -examined properly.

The 'motion was :agreed to. The BiUwas read a second time,

and ordered to be comlmitted.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-Bv leave, I 'move-

That it be an instruction to the Committee that ,they have power to consider amendments and new clauses with respect ,to extractive industries in scenic areas.

I ,foreshadow amendments to res.trict the 'a'mbit O'f the BiB somewhat along the Hnes 'Of suggestions 'which were made during the second-reading debate. That is the reason for giving the Committee power, as 'is often the case, to consider amendments outside the present wording of the Bill.


The BiB was committed.

Clause 1 was agreed to'.

Clause 2, providing, inter aliaSection 42 .of the principal Act is hereby

amended as follows :-

(b) At the end of sub-section (IA) there shall be inserted .the following subsecti.on :-

"(IB) No c.ompensation shall be payable under this Act in respect of-

(a) any prohibition restriction or regulation .of the use .of any land for any purpose if the prohibition restriction or regulation relates .only to a part .or parts of the land which was .or were not actually and directly being used f.or that purpose at the time of the publication in the G.overnment Gazette .of the approval .of the scheme .or .of the amendment ,to the scheme which imposed the pr.ohibition restriction .or regulation notwithstanding that another part or par,ts .of that land contiguous to .or in the same .ownership or occupation as that firstmentioned part or those firstmentioned parts was .or were being lawfully used for that purpose before .the said publication; .or

(b) any prohibition restriction or regulation of the extension of any works that were being lawfully used immediately before the said publication ".

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (M'inister for Local GO'vernment).-The debate on the second reading of this BiB was extremely v,aluable and in 'many ways it showed the House at its best because obviously this BiH, whkh has perhaps an unusual purpose and is of a somewhat unusual nature, has been analysed by the honorable member.s who spoke on it. TO' some extent ,I agree with some of the com'ments 'which were 'made. We are now united in our purpD'S e, and I should like 'members of the Committee to be equally united when the time comes in their attitude towards the means of achieving that purpose. Although II dO' not altogether agree with the very wide ambit which Mr. Walton attributed to the BiU, ,I agree that 'it goes unnecessarily far to counte.r the real objection which most of us ,would feel to the destruction of a naturally beauHful area by the uncontrO'lled 'Operations of quarrying.

Perhaps it would 'assist honorable members jf, to indicate the'i!r general nature, I stated in very broad terms the kind of almendments which I should like to submit to the Committee. The amendments will have three purposes. The first is to restrict the ambit of the BiU toextr,active industries only, and the second is to' restrict its ambit to areas 'which can 'rightly be regarded as scenic areas; that is, areas whkh have sO'me unusual quaHties of naturallandsc.ape. The selcond purpose, therefore, -will be to provide an 'adequate pnO'cedu:re to enable that to be done. Thirdly, there are some incidental amendments.

Mr. Merrifield referred to a hotchpotch of controls over extractive industry. To a certain extent he is right, but ,I believe that since the enact:ment of the Extractive Industries Act there is now a prim'ary means of contnolHng extractive industry, which is that Act. The diffkulty whLch is encountered at


Arthur's Seat is that, at a prior stage, before the Extractive Industries Act can come intD effect, and before the Mines Department can consider what conditions it should attach to a licence for a quarry, the applicant must obtain :any necessary t'Own planning per.mits. This is the point at which the ,impasse .occurs because the particular persons 'with 'whom we are dealing 'in this case have refused to apply for a permit. They claim that if they were for.ced to' do SD

they ,could c1ai;m ;compensation, not on the ground that their 'Operations were being utterly prevented, but that they were being 'restricted Dr placed under condtrtions.

This is one of the problems. The other is the one Mr. 'Merri.field referred to as to what is the actual area with which we are concerned. :It is dear enough if it lis a factory; it ,is confined by its four walls. We know exactly what the area IOf operations is. But in the case of 'a quarry, where hundreds of acres may be ,in one 'Ownership 'and Dnly a small 'corner is being excavated, it is difficult to say what lis the a'mbi.t of the industry.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.Under the L'Ocal Government A'ct it was the one a'rea of ownership.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-That 'is S'O. It is one of the purposes of the Extractive Industries Act and the recommendation .of the State Deve,lopment Com'mittee IOn 'which it was based rt:hat there should be a progressive ext'raction Dr quarrying of stone under ,conditions. S'O that, as Mr. Mansell said, as extr.action 'went on the rehabHitaNon of the 'area wDuld follow. That is the purpose of the Act. It would be all right if the first stage could be reached. The whole purpose of this Bill is to ensure that 'w'e can get this process working.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.But there is no requirement for a permit Tnr an existing operation.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-That is so. With the proposed amendments it will be necessary in the future, so

that it will be possible to apply the very Icontrol 'which the Extractive IndustTies Act en\Tiisages to this kind nf opera i'i on. Bearing in ,mind that the purpose is to' ICut down the a'mbirt: of the Bill and confine 'it to. extracHve industry 'and to 'areas which have this scenic quality, the purport of the amendments 'win be clear. I ,move-

That, in proposed new sub-section (IB) of section 42 of the principal Act, before the words "No compensation ", the following words be inserted :-

Where land is being used for the purpose of an extractive industry in an area in which the natural conditions are of unusual interest and beauty the Governor in Council may, if he is of opinion after considering the recommendation of the Board that the natural conditions in the area should be preserved in the interests of the people of Victoria, by Order published in the Government Gazette declare that area to be a scenic area. This is the first step. First 'Of all the ambit of the Bill will be confined to scenic areas, defined and arrived at in the way I have suggested in the amendment.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.This does not oover histop~c areas, such as the Organ Pipes "at Sydenham.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I think they 'would he c'Overed by the words "unusual interest and beauty".

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mefbourne North P.r.ovince).---Provided that the amendments do what the Minister says they will do,my party has no 'Objection to the 'legislation. Along with the Minister, I consider that the expression " unusual interest" 'would ,coOver places of historicail i1mportance, such :as the Organ Pipes to which ,Mr. MerrHield referred. If this aspect is not covered, I suppose 'we ought to' do something about it now. Provided that the Minister gives an assurance that that sort of si~uation is covered, my colleagues and ,I have no objection to the almendments.

The amendm'ent was agreed t'O, as was 'a ,consequential amendment.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister foor Local GDvernment).-I 'move-

That, in paragraph (a) of proposed new sub-section (IB) of section 42 of the principal Act, the words "at ,the time of the

2006 Town and Country Planning [COUNCIL.] ( Compensation) Bill .

.publication in the Government Gazette of the approval of .the scheme or of the amendment to the scheme" be omitted with the view of inserting the following words:"immediately before the coming into operation of .the interim development order or any amendment thereof or the scheme or .any amendment thereof (as the case may be) ". .

'This amendment results room a closer 'examination of ·the operatiO'n of the BiB, and it is clear that we need to apply its proV'isi'Ons to every possible stage of 'a planning scheme including an interim devel.opment .order, an unapproved 'Or an approved s'cheme, and 'an amendment to it. This lis the effe,ct of the amendment I have m.oved.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (NorthWestern Province).-I ·c.onsider that the words in paragraph (a) of proposed new sub-section (lB) which foHow thos'e 'which the Minister proposes should be inserted oover a case such as the 'Onementoi'Oned in the second-reading debate. ,I do not like picking out ·a particular area, but it lis necessary to' do so to illustrate the position. ,I take it that under the principal Act, as amended by the Bill, if ,in the quarry that was referred to, comprising 150-odd acres, work was undertaken on 20 'acres, under town planning the 'Operators 'w.ould be permitted to take out 'another 20 acres, provided that the first 20 acres was smothered and used. Such an area can be us'ed in all sorts of 'waysfor playgr.ounds, gardens 'and S'O on -and become another beauty spot. Of course, that has not been done in the area concerned. If that worked in the way ,I 'mentioned all of the land ,could be used ,for the pm})ose. I am wondering 'whether my interpretation is correct.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (M'inister for Local Government).--If I understand Mr. Mansell's p'Oint cor.rectly, this is preoisely the intention of the proposed legislation-not to take anything away :from a quaTry 'master, but to ·make '1t possible for his operations to be regulated. Part of the end result must be that he retains land which in itself is valuable to

hi'm. I beHeve that even now results are being obtained from the new legis,lation. Quarry holes are being filled and turned over to parkland and other :such purposes.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-They are filled 'with gar.bage.

The Hon. R. J. HAIMER.-That is so; it makes a good foundation for a playing field. Quarry holes in the northern suburbs of Melbourne are being reserved for future open space. As they are filled with garbage, they make a good level playing area. It has been proved possible to quarry in benches with levels 30 feet wide where trees can be planted. This produces the appearance of a slope not so different from the original land. The ultimate effect is to beautify the spot and lessen the impact of the quarry. Benching enables rehabilitation to be carried out satisfactorily.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD (lOoutta Galla Province) .-The Minister's intention may be all for the best. However, it will not be possible to fill ,the enormous quarries in the Shire of Flinders with garbage. It took the cities of Coburg, Essendon and Keilor four years to fill a hole in Victoria-street, Brunswick. The population of those cities numbers hundreds of thousands. 'f;here is not a great population in Flinders, except perhaps during the summer period. I should like to think that this Bill will be as progressive as the Minister hopes it will be.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (NorthWestern Province) .-Honorable members should ask the secretary of the State Development Committee for a transcript of the evidence submitted on this subject. They would realize how valuable these quarries are and how fast they are being filled. In 'the next 10 or 11 years Victoria will be involved in an outlay of millions of dollars for the disposal of rubbish. Quarry holes are being filled rapidly.

The amendment was agreed to, as was a verbal amendment.



That the following sub-section be added to follow sub-section (IB) ;-

"(1e) A copy of an Order declaring an area to be a scenic area shall be published once in a newspaper circulating in the vicinity of the scenic area within 28 days of the Order being published in the Government Gazette." The purpose of this amendment will be obvious to the Committee. It is designed to give the normal protection and notice to people affected by the declaration. The amendment requires a declaration o.f a scenic area to be placed in a newspaper so that the people in the area will know about it.

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Govem·ment) .-1 propose the following new clause, to follow clause 1 :-

• AA. The principal Act is hereby amended as follows :-

(a) In sub-section (1) of section (3)(i) after the interpretation of "Develop

ment" there shall be inserted the following interpretation :-

• .. Extractive industry" means the extraction from land of any stone within the meaning of ;the Extractive Industries Act 1966 for commercial purposes and where stone is treated or bricks tiles pottery or cement products are manufactured substantially from stone on or adjacent to ;the land from which the stone was extracted includes that treatment or manufacture.' ;

(ii) after the interpretation of .. Responsible 'authority" there shall be inserted the following interpretation :-

• .. Scenic area" means an area declared to be a scenic area under sub-section (lB) of section 42.'.

(b) At the end of sub-section (1D) of section 17 there shall be inserted .the following proviso :-

.. Provided that an interim development order or a modification or ·amendment thereof may prevent the use of any part or parts of any land in a scenic area that was or were not being actually and directly used for or in connexion with an

extractive industry from being used after the coming into operation of the order or the modification or amendment thereof for or in connexion with an extractive industry notwithstanding ,that another part or other parts of that land contiguous to or in the same ownership or occupation as that first mentioned part or those first· mentioned parts was or were being lawfully so used before that time.".'

The purpose of this new clause is to insert the necessary definitions into the Town and Country Planning Act to enable the purpose of this Bill to be pursued. I direct the attention of honorable members to the definition of " extractive industry". During the second-reading debate, Mr. Mansell asked what was the meaning of the word "stone" and whether it was wide enough to take in other forms of the extractive industry. The Extractive ,Industries Act defines " stone " to mean-

Sandstone freestone or other building stone basalt granite limestone or rock of any kind quartz (not being quartz crystals) slate gravel clay (not being fine clay bentonite or kaolin) sand earth soil or other similar materials.

The reference to stone in the a,mendment covers the wide kind of material within the meaning of the Extractive Industries Act. It is part of the confining process of this Bill.

The new clause was agreed to.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .----1 propose the following new clause to follow clause 2:-

• BB. After section 48 of the principal Act there shall be inserted the following section :-

"48A. (1) Where a question arises at any time as to ·the extent to which any part or parts of any land was or were actually and directly being lawfully used for the purpose of an extractive industry in a scenic area at a particular time the responsible authority may make a determination as to which part or parts of the land was or were being actually and directly lawfully used or may be deemed to have been in use for that purpose at the relevant time.

(2) The responsible authority may make a determination under sub-section (1) of its own motion after giving ,the owner and the occupier notice in writing of its intention so to do or upon the application of the owner or occupier of ·the land.

2008 National Parks [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

(3) Where the responsible authority fails to make a determination acceptable to the owner or occupier of the land within two months after the giving of the notice of :intention to make a determination or the :making of the application (as the case may "be) the responsible authority or the owner 'or occupier may request the Appeals Tribunal to determine the question and the" 'Tribunal may make such determination of the question as it thinks fit and the determination of the Tribunal shall be final. ".'

The purpose of this amendment is to define where an extractive industry is operative at any time. IMr. "Merrifield stated that ,considerable doubt existed in defining what is meant by an extractive industry for the purpose of future development. This new clause will enable an area to be defined and will permit the responsible authority to make a determination. A person who is agrieved by that deter,mination may appeal to the Town Planning Appeals Tribunal. It will enable some certainty to be obtained in a most uncertain area, and enable the Bill to operate more effectively.

The new clause was agreed to.

The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, and passed through its remaining stages.

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES (AMENDMENT) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. V. O. DICKiIE (IMinister of Health) ,was read a first time.

NATIONAL PARKS (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-1 move-


This is the tenth occasion since 1958 on which a Bill has been presented to' declare land to be national park or to amend the National Parks Act. This measure deals with the declaration of 2 new national parks, provides for substantial additions to 2 national parks, and alters the

boundaries of 5 other parks. The Bill proposes to declare a net area of 131,605 acres as national park, and contains the most extensive schedules of such dedications in the history of nature :conservation in Victoria.

.us principal provisions are as follows :-

Addition of 84,000 acres to Little Desert National Park.

Declaration of Lower Glenelg National Park of 22,400 acres.

Addition of 18,496 acres to Wilson's Promontory National Park.

Declaration of Captain James Cook National Park of 6,700 acres.

Provision is also made for minor changes in the National Parks Act.

LITTLE DESERT: The Government has decided to declare the eastern sector of the Little Desert as a national park.

It is proposed to add 84,000 acres to the 'Little Desert National Park, giving it a total area of 86,870 acres. Final decisions have not yet been made for the land settlement of the western sector. However, forest reserves totalling 1,400 acres are to be established adjacent to the South Australian border. This will preserve the main yello'w gum areas in the south-west of the Desert, and the associated smaller flora and fauna.

lIn the :central sector, a Crown lands reserve of 1,300 acres is to be established around an unusual geological feature known as "The Crater". The area will be reserved for public purposes as a natural feature, and placed under the control of a committee of management. The Government proposes to declare a permanent wildlife reserve at Broughton's Waterhole.

No decision has yet been made on the size of boundaries, or on the number of reserves. The Premier has indicated that there will be a minimum of 20,000 acres of wildlife reserve, and has referred the matter to the State Wildlife Reserves

National Parks [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] (Amendment) Bill. 2009

Investigation Committee for its recommendation. Thus, the Government proposes to dedicate permanent reservations totalling more than 110,000 acres in the Little Desert.

THE LITTLE DESERT NATIONAL PARK.-Despite the differing views on these proposals, there are some points I must make in order to keep this proposal for a national park in proper focus. These are:-

(a) The Little Desert National Park proposed in this Bill is a very good national park.

(b) It is the third largest in the State.

(c) It 'contains a rectangular block of 84,000 acres with a northerly extension of 2,870 acres.

(d) It is almost certainly an ecologically viable unit.

(e) It contains five miles of river frontage, together with sand dunes, open heathlands, beautiful wildflowers, .mallee scrub, salt lakes, saline basins and swamps.

(f) It contains good mallee-fowl habitat.

(g) It is an important conservation area for birds, animals, reptiles, insects and plants, and it preserves important geological values.

(h) .Jt will be one of Australia's most interesting national parks, and one of our most significant areas for the ·conservation of plant and ani,mal wildlife.

(i) Among its particular values is a population of the silky ·mouse, classified as an endangered native species. A second endangered species in Mitchell's hopping mouse is also reported present. The echidna, mallee kangaroo and red-ne.cked wallaby ·may also be found there.

LOWER GLENELG.-It is proposed to declare a Lower Glenelg National Park of 22,400 acres. It is understood that the Forests Commission will keep under native vegetation two blocks of forest totalling 15,000

acres adjacent to the national park. These areas will assist in maintaining the adjacent areas of national park in their natural condition, and they will provide additional open space for public recreation.

The national park will consist of three main areas. The first is the western block of about 8,200 acres. This block is bounded on the west by a road running along the South Australian border. The national park will include the Glenelg river, and the 3-chain reserve on either side of the river. Thus, on the north, the western block will be bounded by the northern boundary of the 3-chain reserve north of the Glenelg for about 6 miles, as far as McLennons Punt. The eastern boundary runs south for about Ii miles from that point. The southern boundary runs westerly and southerly to the Glenelg, where for a mile or so, upstream as far as the border, it includes both banks of the river. All of this block, excepting the river frontage, is at present State forest. It will provide an ideal area for the protection of fauna, especially larger animals such as kangaroos, wallabies and emus.

The second block, of about 2,800 acres, extends for some 15 miles upstream along both sides of the Glenelg, from McLennons Punt to a point on Keegans Bend about 1 mile upstream from the junction of Moleside creek and the Glenelg. On both sides of the river this strip includes the 3-chain river frontage. It includes areas of State ,forest south of the river, and at some points is 60 chains wide. This strip along the Glenelg will preserve a portion of the Glenelg valley, which has great scenic beauty along this section of the river.

The third block contains about 11,400 acres of the Kentbruck heathlands. It is separated from the remainder of the national park by about I! miles of State forest. It contains substantially all of the catchments of Little Moleside creek and Moleside creek. This area contains wet heathland vegetation as


well as treefern gullies and waterfalls, and is eminently suitable for the protection of fauna. A substantial part of the ecological unit is preserved in the park. In all, some 25 miles length of the Glenelg river has been included in the national park.

WILSON'S PROMONTORY AND Y ANAKIE.-It is proposed to add 18,496 acres to Wilson's Promontory National Park, giving it a total area of 120,875 acres.

The land to be added is as follows:-

(a) The Yanakie Run of 17,900 acres;

(b) a number of off-shore islands, with a total area of 588 acres; and

( c) between 8 and 9 acres of land at Refuge Cove, on the east coast of Wilson's Promontory.

Wilson's Promontory is one of our largest and most popular national parks. It is the southernmost promontory of the Australian continent. This Bill proposes the first substantial addition to the area of Wilson's Promontory National Park for more than 60 years.

THE YANAKIE RUN.-The Yanakie isthmus connects Wilson's Promontory with the mainland. In 1909 the Minister of Lands made the Yanakie area available for the agistment of dairy cattle during the winter months. This arrangement has continued to the present time. In 1953 the Field Naturalists' Club of Victoria again proposed the inclusion of the Yanakie Run in Wilson's Promontory National Park. In 1954, the northern 12,000 acres of the Run were set apart for development by the Soldier Settlement Commission.

The Government has decided to make the land available to the National Parks Authority, subject to


certain conditions. In pursuance of these conditions, the Authority has agreed to continue the existing rights of the adjacent hill country dairy farmers, and to make the existing northern boundary fence kangaroo and vermin proof. The authority has also undertaken to continue the existing access rights of fishermen from Yanakie to Shallow Inlet.

OFF-SHORE ISLANDS.-A number of islands near Wilson's Promontory are to be included in the national park. These are Great Glennie Island, Ramsbotham Rocks, Dannevig Island and McHugh Island in the Glennie Group; and Rabbit Rocks on the east coast. The islands have a total area of 588 acres.

REFUGE COVE.-Also to be included in Wilson's Promontory National Park is an area of between 8 and 9 acres at Refuge Cove, on the east coast of Wilson's Promontory. This area was once occupied under sections of the Land Act, and for that reason was not included in the earlier reservations.

CAPTAIN JAMES COOK NATIONAL PARK.-To mark the bicentenary of the first sighting of the Australian continent by Captain Cook, the Government proposes to declare a national park of 6,700 acres in the Cape Everard area of East Gippsland. This event took place on the 20th April, 1770. The Government considers that this is an appropriate way to commemorate the bicentenary.

The discoveries of Captain Cook were of the greatest historical significance to Australia. For a number of reasons, he is regarded as the greatest of the early discoverers of Australia. And he claimed the area for the British Crown. He did not discover the continent, it is true. But he was the first to describe the eastern coastline. It was the appearance of his journal that first awakened the interest of Europe in this continent.

The Captain James Cook National Park will preserve the coastline between the Clinton Rocks and the


mouth of the Thurra river. The eastern Victorian coastline was the first part of Australia seen by Cook. It is believed that it is a fitting gesture to establish and name after him a national park which will preserve the coastline as closely as possible to the condition in which it was when first seen by him. This is an area of magnificent scenery as well as of historical significance.

The Commonwealth Government owns an area of 326 acres at Cape Everard. On this area are located the lighthouse and associated facilities and an obelisk. The obelisk, which was built in Melbourne of blocks of concrete, and taken to pieces and reerected on the Cape, records the sighting of Point Hicks from the Endeavour in that memorable dawning. It carries a simple inscription:-

Lieutenant James Cook, R.N., of the Endeavour, first sighted Australia near this spot, which he named Point Hicks, after Lieutenant Zachary Hicks, who first saw the land, April 19 (ship's log date, April 20 calender date), 1770.

The seaward boundary of the national park will be located at low-watermark.

Particulars regarding some of the more complex clauses of the Bill are as follows:-

Clause 10 relates to forest excision and exchange. The larger portion of the land to be included in the Lower Glenelg National Park, estimated at some 14,600 acres, is at present part of a reserved forest within the meaning of the Forests Act 1958.

Provision has been made in subclause (1) of clause 10 that the land shall cease to be part of a reserved forest. This is the land shown diagonally hatched on the plan in the Fifth Schedule. It is provided under sub-clause (2) that the Minister of Forests and the Minister of Lands shall recommend to the Governor in Council that an area of Crown land be dedicated as a reserved forest in exchange for the land referred to in

sub-clause (1). The Forests Commission, through its membership of the Land Utilization Advisory Council, has consented, in essence, to the dedication of this area of State forest as national park.

It is not the intention of the Government to create a precedent under which any piece of reserved forest might henceforth be regarded as open to excision by way of a special Act. For that reason, this provision has been drawn up to give the same effect as the provision in section 49 of the Forests Act for the exchange of Crown land for land dedicated as reserved forest.

Clause 12 relates to occupancies which have become established along the permanent water frontage reserve to the Glenelg river and which have hitherto posed a difficult management problem for the Government. The Land Utilization Advisory Council recommended that the problem could best be solved over a period of

. time by setting aside some small areas for villages at appropriate and suitable sites along the river frontage, with occupants being encouraged to settle within the confines of these areas. Existing shacks, subject to current permissive occupancies from the Department of Crown Lands and Survey, will be permitted to remain for the lifetimes of the present occupiers or until the 31st December, 1983, whichever is the shorter time. No further permits will be granted, and no transfers of existing permits will be approved. Since, on the declaration of the area as national park, the responsibility for administration of these shacks will be vested in the National Parks Authority, provision is made in clause 12 to safeguard the interests of the occupants.

Clause 18 is the usual machinery provision to make the necessary variations to the Second Schedule to the National Parks Act.


A simplified table has been prepared to explain the variations to the schedule. It is somewhat detailed, and I seek leave of the

No. National Park.

1 Wyperfeld . . " · . .. 2 Kinglake .. .. .. 3 Fern Tree Gully .. · . 4 Wilson's Promontory " .. .. 5 Mount Buffalo " · . ., 6 The Lakes . . · . .. .. 7 Lind .. " " .. 8 Alfred . , · . · . · . 9 Wingan Inlet · . .. ..

10 Mallacoota Inlet .. · . · . 11 Tarra Valley .. · . .. · . 12 Bulga .. · . · . .. 13 Churchill .. " · . .. 14 Fraser · . · . · . 15 Mount Richmond " · . ., 16 Mount Eccles · . .. .. 17 Hattah Lakes · . · . ., 18 Glenaladale .. .. .. 19 Port Campbell · . " .. 20 Morwell .. · . .. 21 Little Desert .. .. " .. 22 Lower Glenelg · . .. . . 23 Captain James Cook .. · . · .

Total .. .. .. ..

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-The purpose of clause 19 is to permit the National Parks Authority to accept gifts and bequests. At present, the only reference to this subject is in paragraph (a) of sub-section (2) of section 14 of the National Parks Act, which requires any gifts or bequests made to the Authority to be paid into the National Parks Fund. That provision, of course, can apply only to gifts or bequests of money.

Under the National Parks (Amendment) Act 1965, a new section 8A was inserted lin the principal Act t'O provide for the purchase of land. This provision, however, could not apply to gifts and bequests. From time to time several persons and organizations have discussed with officers of the Authority the possibility of gifts or bequests of land adjoining national parks, or other

House to have it incorporated in Hansard without my reading it.

Leave was granted, and the table was as follows:-

Total Area Present Area Net Alteration Subsequent to

(acres). by This Clause the Passing of (acres). This Bill

(acres).

139,760 · . 139,760 14,093 + 3 14,096

927 + 4 931 102,379 + 18,496 120.875 27,280 · . 27,280

5,238 · . 5,238 2,882 · . 2,882 5,406 · . 5,406 4,730 · . 4,730

11,225 .. 11,225 315 .. 315

91 I .. 91

477 I- .' 477 7,749 3 7,746 2,036 · . 2,036

974 ., 974 44,000 ., 44,000

403 · . 403 1,750 · . 1,750

341 + 5 346 2,870 + 84,000 86,870 Nil + 22,400 22,400 Nil + 6,700 6,700

374,926 + 131,605 506,531

land suitable for the purposes of the National Parks Act. However, the indefinite legal position makes it difficult for direct advice to be given.

Clause 19 inserts in the principal Act a new clause 8B. Its purpose is to permit the Authority to accept a gift or bequest of real and personal property, and to act as executor or trustee of any property where it is expedient to do so in order to give effect to the objects of the Act. The Deputy Commissioner of Taxation advises that such a bequest would be e~empt ifrom Com'm'Onwealth estate duty, and the Commissioner of Probate Duties similarly advises that it would be exempt from State prohate duty.

Clause 20 provides for the insertion of two new sub-sections in section 16 of the principal Act. The new


sub-section (2) provides that where the regulations so provide the regulations shall have effect on such part of any road as is specified in the regulations as if that part of the road formed part of a national park.

The new sub-section (3) defines the roads to which sub-section (2) may apply. The reason for this provision is that within many national parks there are Government roads which are not part of the area of the park. These vary from State highways on the one extreme to uncleared road alignments indistinguishable from parkland at the other extreme. This state of affairs has come particularly to notice during the preparation of this Bill. In two cases, provision is made for alterations to existing road reserves. A proclaimed tourist road divides certain land to be included in Wilson's Promontory National Park. Two roads run through the proposed Lower Glenelg National Park. The area of the Little Desert National Park is divided into two by a proposed road. It is proposed in clause 20 to provide for certain administrative problems which can arise in such cases.

cases it will be necessary to determine which of the National Park Regulations will be applied.

The National Parks (Amendment) Act 1965 provided in section 3 for the surrender of certain land to the Crown by the Edward A. Green Charitable Foundation. The purpose of the section was to allow the land which contains the Sydenham Organ Pipes to be made available for dedication as a national park. Further legal difficulties since the passing of the 1965 Act have delayed the surrender of the land to the Crown. Title to the land is at present held by Lorool Development Pty. Ltd., and the diffi,cui ties 'relate to the need under the 1965 Act -to transfer the title to the Edwa~d A. Green Charitable Foundation. The ,relationship between the 'company and the Foundation lis recited in the preamble to the 1965 Act.

Under clause 21, it is proposed to settle this difficulty by inserting in paragraph (a) of sub-section (1) of section 3 of the National Parks (Amendment) Act 1965 after the phrase" Edward A. Green Charitable Foundation" the words "or Lorool Development Proprietary Limited". This will make it possible for the company to surrender the land directly to the Crown. The Crown

These provisions have been drafted Solicitor has 'expressed the opinion following consultations between the that this is the best way to achieve National Parks Authority and the the purpose for which the 1965 Act Country Roads Board, on what is was passed. considered necessary to provide for The following summary of the these circumstances. In particular clauses has been prepared:-Clause 1 Short Title-National Parks (Amendment) Act 1969 Clause 2 Wingan Inlet-Land between high-water-mark and low-water-

mark to be deemed included in the national park Clause 3 Morwell-Addition of 5 acres (to make total area of 346 acres) Clause 4 Wilson's Promontory-addition of Yanakie (17,900 acres),

Offshore Islands (588 acres), Refuge Cove (8 acres). New total area 120,875 acres

First Schedule Second Schedule, Part

I, Part II. (a), Part II. (b)

Clause 5 Agistment to be continued on Yanakie Run Clause 6 Wilson's Promontory Road-Entrance features, collection

fees and control of entry Clause 7 Fern Tree Gully-

(1) addition of 7 acres (purchased broacI acres)

(2) addition of 9 acres (32 purchased lots)

~f} Second Schedule, Part I.

. . Third Schedule, Part I.

.. Third Schedule, Part II.

Clause 8 Fern Tree Gully-excision of road alignment-13 acres (Mt. Fourth Schedule Dandenong Tourist Road widened from one to two chains)

Clause 9 Fern Tree Gully-inclusion of part of old road reserve-1 rood Fourth Schedule 30 perches


Clauses 7, 8 and 9

Net addition to Fern Tree Gully National Park of 4 acres, new total area 931 acres

Clause 10 Lower Glenelg-excision of 14,600 acres from State Forest; Fifth Schedule suitable area of Crown land by way of exchange

Clause Clause

11 12

Lower Glenelg-declaration of national park of 22,400 acres .. Fifth Schedule Lower Glenelg-provision to continue riverfront occupancies Fifth Schedule

until 31st December, 1983 Clause Clause

13 14

Captain James Cook National Park of 6,700 acres (declaration of) Sixth Schedule Little Desert National Park-addition of 84,000 acres (to make Seventh Schedule

total area 86,870 acres) Clause 15 Apiaries in Little Desert National Park .. Seventh Schedule Clause 16 Fraser National Park-excision of 3 acres for road (U.T. Eighth Schedule

Creek Road) Clause 17 Kinglake National Park-excision for road (Healesville- Ninth Schedule

Kinglake Road); inclusion from road reserve, net gain 3 acres. Now total area 14,096 acres

Clause 18 Alterations to Second Schedule to principal Act in accordance with clauses 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, 16 and 17

Clause 19 Gifts and bequests-power to accept same Clause 20 Amendment to principal Act for application of regulations to

roads bounded on each side by national park Clause 21 Amendment to National Parks (Amendment) Act 1965 in section

3 (1) (a)-to permit Lorool Development to surrender land to the Crown

1 commend the Bill to the House. On the motion of the Hon. D. G.

ELLIOT (Melbourne Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Thursday, November 27. FIREARMS (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-1 move-

That this Bill be now read a second time. This is the type of measure which should go off with the proverbial bang; it amends the Firearms Act in many ways. Generally, the amendments are not related so I shall explain them separately. Clause 2 increases the fees for a gun dealer's licence to $20 a year. The fee was last set in 1932, and it seems reasonable that it should now be altered. The fee for part of a year will be a minimum of $2.

The interpretation of " firearm" as it relates to pistols is dealt with in clause 3. Apparently there had been some doubt whether the term covered all pistols. It was felt that pistols with a calibre of less than .229 of an inch were not covered. The amendment to the Act contained in clause 3 will ensure that all pistols are covered by

the definition. Clause 4 relates to the power of the Chief Commissioner of Police to approve of the use of pistols wi th a calibre of less than .250 of an inch. At present, the Chief Commissioner can approve of the use of pistols of this type only for practice for an approved Olympic Games event. Apparently, a ,different type of international competition is developing and pistols with a calibre of .177 of an inch are being used. Clauses 4 and 5 will allow the Chief Commissioner to approve the use of these pistols for the new shooting competitions.

Clause 6 increases the fees payable for firearms certificates. The police must engage in a considerable amount of work to find out why applicants want firearms and to ensure that they are people of good character to whom certificates should be issued, so the new fees are justified. The new subsection (12) to be inserted by clause 6 makes it possible for a bank or a security organization to have a common expiry date for all the firearms in its possession. Banks and security organizations are regular applicants for permits for firearms, and this new provision seems reasonable.

Government Departments [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] and Instrumentalities. 2015

Clause 7 is of a somewhat different character from the other clauses. Briefly, the clause will make it legal to shoot sharks on Sundays. Apparently, spear fishermen and skin diving experts occasionally need to use firearms on Sundays for this purpose. Under the existing legislation, a convicted felon is permanently excluded from applying for a permit for a firearm. It is thought that this is a little unfair, and clause 8 reduces the term during which a :convicted felon is prohibited from applying for a certificate from Hfe to fifteen years. Another provision in the clause prohibits people who have been adjudged not guilty of a crime on the grounds of insanity from applying for a certificate for a firearm for a period of five years. It seems advisable that people in this category should be temporarily prevented from obtaining permission to hold firearms.

Under clause 9, collectors of ammunition will be exempted from the provisions of the Act relating to fully jacketed ammunition. The jacketing of this ammunition extends to the bottom of the casing. It is ammunition of the type used by military services. At present, licensed gun collectors are entitled to have possession of fully jacketed ammunition, and apparently there is a race of people called registered collectors of ammunition who want the same privilege. Clause 9 grants it to them. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province), the debate was adjourned.


HOUSING (URBAN RENEWAL) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government), was read a first time.

The House adjourned at 10.41 p.m.

i.jtgislattut Asstmbly. Tuesday, November 25, 1969.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie) took the chair at 2.34 p.m., and read the prayer.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE.

GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS AND INSTRUMENTALITIES.

MOTOR VEHICLES. Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds)

asked the Premier-1. How many-(a) motor vehicles with

carrying capacity of 15 cwt. and under; (b) motor vehicles with carrying capacity of over 15 cwt.; and (c) motor cycles, are owned by the State?

2. How many new vehicles the State has purchased this year?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-The answers are-

1. (a) 6,161. (b) 5,882. (c) 114.

2. 3,953.

CAPTAIN COOK'S DISCOVERIES. COMMEMORATION CEREMONY.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Premier-

Whether the Government is considering any form of commemoration ceremony in Melbourne next year to celebrate the discoveries of Captain Cook; if so, what proposals are being considered?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-The answer is-

The Government has announced a number of awards and exhibitions with which it will mark the bi-centenary of Captain Cook's discoveries along the eastern coast of Australia. These will be concentrated in April, 1970, and will culminate with a ceremony at Point Hicks (Cape Everard), the first Australian landfall of Cook on 20th April, 1770.

PUBLIC SERVICE BOARD. INSPECTORS OF MUNICIPAL ACCOUNTS.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine) asked the Premier-

1. Whether he will ensure that local government inspectors of accounts, under the Public Service Board, are properly qualified to inspect accounts or to investigate complaints and not less qualified than the persons over whom they will be exercising control?

2016 Road Accident [ASSEMBLY.] Insurance Claims.

2. Whether he will ensure that any classification of local government inspectors by the Public Service Board is adequate to maintain properly qualified inspectors of accounts?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-The answers are-

1. The three inspectors of municipal accounts at present on the staff .of the Local Government Department are properly qualified to inspect municipal accounts and to investigate complaints. It is not possible to ensure that inspectors of municipal accounts are no less qualified than the municipal officers whose work they are inspecting or investigating because the municipal officers concerned are employed directly by local government authorities.

2. Inspectors of municipal accounts are officers of the Victorian Public Service, employed under the Public Service Act, and the determination of their classifications is a matter for the independent Public Service Board. I understand that retention and recruitment of properly qualified staff is one of the factors taken into account by the Board in determining classifications.

ROAD ACCIDENT INSURANCE CLAIMS.

ABSOLUTE LIABILITY SYSTEM: REPRESENTATION ON COURT OF INQUIRY.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Chief Secretary-

1. What stage has been reached on the Government inquiry into the absolute liability system of settling road accident insurance claims?

2. What bodies are represented on this committee of inquiry?

3. Whether he is aware of criticism that the committee is one-sided because hospital authorities, doctors, and road victims, are not represented?

4. Whether consideration will be given to providing such representation on the committee?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary).-The answers are-

1 and 2. No committee of inquiry has been set up to inquire into the absolute liability system of settling road accident

Racecourse.

insurance -claims. However, at my suggestion a conference has been convened to inquire into delays of compensation to road victims and the cost of litigation in relation to motor car insurance.

A preliminary meeting of members of the conference was held on 10th November.

Chairman of the conference is the Government Statist and Actuary and representatives have been nominated by the following organizations:-

The Victorian Employers Federation. The Fire and Accident Underwriters

Association of Victoria. The Non-Tariff Insurance Association

of Australia.

Royal Automobile Club of Victoria.

The State Insurance Office.

3. Yes.

4. It is considered that the composition of ·the conference is appropriate for the purpose for which it was formed.

HORSE-RACING. RACECOURSES DEVELOPMENT FUND.


1. What revenue has been collected by the Racecourses Development Fund from the Totalizator Agency Board pool?

2. What projects have been financially assisted from this Fund and by what amount in each case?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary).-The answers are-

1. The revenue which has accrued to the Racecourses Development Fund from its inception on 1st July, 1968, to 22nd November, 1969, is $863,126. The sources of the revenue were:

(QI) 1 per centum of moneys invested in daily doubles on horse races .. $857,908

(b) interest from fund moneys invested by the Treasury $5,218

2. The following schedule indicates the projects which have been financially assisted from the Fund and the amount in each case:-

Purpose. Amount.

$

Apsley

Ararat

Reforming and regrading the track proper 2,000

Toilet block-jockeys and members J Totalizator house 12,150 Re-roofing house .. Twelve horse stalls, swabbing box, and veterinary room

Horse

Racecourse.

Bacchus Marsh

Bairnsdale

Ballarat

Bendigo

Benalla ..

Burrumbeet

Donald ..

Echuca ..

Epsom Training Track

Flemington

Geelong

Hamilton

Horsham

Kilmore

Kyneton .. .. Mentone Training Track ..

Mildura

Moe

Nhill

Penshurst

St. Arnaud

Sale

Stawell ..

[25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Racing.

Purpose.

Liquidation of existing liabilities (section 126 (4) (A) (d),

Photo-finish tower and judge's box complex ..

Resettling trainer N. Kelly .. Running rail, widening of the straight, preventive

drainage, water mains, and water pump

Extension to grass training track

Reformation of the track proper and installation of a watering system

Running rail

Dam for enlargement of water storage

Two furlongs running rail; administrative building

Alternate water supply; running rail

Extensions and alterations to the public car park Staff amenities block .. Totalizator house extensions

Water supply to certain areas of the racecourse

Mile starting chute, horse yards and boxes .. Resettling trainer Barling from Macarthur

Public toilet block

Public snack and bar facilities Totalizator house extensions Three stewards' stands Sealing of public and members' areas Erection of switching room (part cost)

Administration building Alternate water supply

Administration building

Administration building

Toilet block .. Additions to bar and dining-room .. Running rail

Photo-finish tower

Jockeys' toilet and showers Extensions to the administrative building Ten hurdle wings .. Ladder to photo-finish tower Alterations to the dining-room 5,000 yard dam and ancillaries Sealing of entrance road .. Electrical work

Toilet block, public dining-room

Toilet and showers for jockeys, drainage to public areas, watering system on track proper, and sand roll ..

2017

Amount.

$

14,041

3,990

10,600

17,525

15,790

10,827

2,000

3,892

16,750

28,616

} 92,176

9,245

5,000 24,500

4,712

} 23.423

47,000 12,618

12,000

66,000

} 10,637

3,000

8,411

18,678

5,650

2018 Horse [ASSEMBLY.] Racing.

Racecourse. Purpose. Amount.

$

Stony Creek Photo-finish tower and judge's box complex, including totalizator 6,130

Towong Public and jockeys' toilets, horse stalls, regrading of car parks, resettling a trainer 7,844

Regrading and sealing of the public areas } Toilet block and water reticulation 25,000 Totalizator house

Traralgon

Wangaratta

Werribee

Administration building 20,000

Totalizator house and equipment; running rail 47,560

Wodonga

Wycheproof

Totalizator house, drainage of track, members' bar 3,300

Toilet block and sundry fencing 1.065

Total amount approved for disbursement 590.130

MENTONE AND EpSOM RACECOURSES.


1. When it is anticipated that the Mentone and Epsom racecourses will be closed for horse training?

2. What steps are envisaged to assist trainers affected?

3. What is the anticipated cost of these steps?

4. How many trainers are concerned? 5. What is the source of finance to carry

out such assistance proposals?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-The answers are-

I am informed that a committee has been appointed to inquire into the future of the Mentone and Epsom racecourses.

I understand that the committee has made recommendations on the subject but, as yet, no decisions have been made on the recommendations by the owner clubs. Accordingly, I am unable, at this stage, to assist the honorable member.

MUNICIPAL LIBRARIES. GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE.


What steps, if any, he intends to take to overcome the concern of municipalities in the Geelong area at the ever-increasing cost burden of the operation of libraries?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-The answer is-

The question of increasing the per capita grants to municipalities for libraries was given consideration in the preparation of

the Budget, but, having regard to the general budgetary situation of the State, no increase could be made.

However, the Treasurer indicated recently that adjustments would be made to the provision in the Budget for regional library grants to ensure that the grants to individual libraries would be maintained at the level of last financial year. The Geelong Regional Library will benefit from this decision.

SURF BEACHES. SURF BOARD RIDING.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister of Public Works, for the Minister for Local Government-

Whether the Government has been requested by any municipal council to consider ways of restricting surf board riding on any of the Victorian beaches; if so, whether any consideration has been given to legalizing the general practice of control carried out by surf lifesaving clubs on popular beaches?

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-The answer supplied by the Minister for Local Government is-

The Local Government Act was amended in 1966 to empower councils to make by-laws on a number of matters concerning beaches, including the use of surf boards within 300 yards of the shore, and some councils already have such by-laws. No requests have been made to the Government, but it is understood that several councils in the Bellarine Peninsula are meeting with surf life-saving clubs in the area with a view to producing a uniform by-law on the subject in co-ordination with the clubs.

Housing [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Commission. 2019

HOUSING COMMISSION. UNITS IN RESERVOIR ELECTORATE

Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir) asked the Minister of Housing-

In respect of the electoral district of Reservoir-

1. How many 2-bedroom flats, 3-bedroom flats, 2-bedroom houses, and 3-bedroom houses, respectively, have been provided by the Housing Commission?

2. How many of these units have bungalows?

3. How many applications have been made for the provision of a bungalow?

4. How many houses are being purchased?

5. How many flats and houses, respectively, became vacant in the twelve months ended 31st October, 1969?

6. What is the waiting time for occupation of these units?

7. What additional housing the Commission proposes to construct?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing).-The answers are-

1. Houses (2-bedroom) 1,010; (3-bedroom) 1,698.

Flats (2-bedroom) 160; (3-bedroom) nil.

2. 404.

3. 27 applications for sleepouts are currently recorded with the Commission.

4. 1,449.

5. 34 flats-51 houses.

6. Lone-person flats, 4! years. Darby and Joan flats, 6-12 months. 2-bedroom flats, 6 months. 3-bedroom houses (large families only),

21 months.

7. The only new construction proposed by the Commission is for 16 low rental units and 88 lone-person units on land previously reserved for railway purposes south of Chaleyer-street, East Preston. In addition, 10 low-rental units and 14 lone-person units are in course of construction on portion of the same land.

. UNITS IN GEELONG NORTH ELECTORATE.

Mr. TREZISE (Gee long North) asked the Minister of Housing-

1. How many Housing Commission units have been erected in the electoral district of Geelong North?

2. How many of such units are occupied by females living alone?

3. Whether the percentage of deserted wives, particularly those under the age of 25 year~1 seeking emergency accommodation from me Geelong Housing Office is increasing?

4. What special provision, if any, is provided to cope with the increase of applicants?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing).-The answers are-

\

1. 2,968 .

2. The Commission is currently carrying out a survey to determine the degree of under-occupancy of Commission units in these estates. When the survey is completed further advice will be forwarded to the honorable member.

3. Yes.

4. The Commission makes no special provISIon of accommodation for deserted wives in these estates.

STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION. AWARD WAGES.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) asked the Minister for Fuel and Power-

How many workers are employed by the State Electricity Commission at an award wage of $44 or less?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power).-The answer is-

Of the 10,278 adult male wages employees of the Commission at 31st October, 1969, 530 were employed at award rates of $44 a week or less. However, of the 530, 50 per cent. would be eligible for other award allowances ranging from $1 to $3 a week which would take them above an inclusive rate of $44 a week. They would all be eligible, on completion of the appropriate qualifying periods, to receive a service grant, which is a payment outside the award, ranging from 50 cents to $2 a week.

Analysis of earnings for the period of four months ended 31st October shows that 133 adult male employees actually received average weekly earnings of less than $44 during that period. This number represents 1.3 per cent. of the adult male wages employees of the Commission.

There are also 311 female employees and 963 apprentices and juniors who are engaged at award rates of $44 or less a week.

2020 Education Department. [ASSEMBLY. ] Education.

LEASE OF LAND AT RESERVOIR.

Mr. WILKES (N orthcote) asked the Minister for Fuel and Power-

Further to the answer to question No. 7 asked in this House on 18th November, relating to land situated in Seaver-grove, Reservoir-

l. Whether the premises are being built for the Commonwealth or the Preston Small Bore Rifle Club and who is providing the finance?

2. Whether the Commonwealth, as a lessee of land, can override a planning scheme or whether it is the responsibility of the State Electricity Commission which is the owner?

3. Whether the Minister recommended to the Governor in Council that section 350 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1961 apply to the State Electricity Commission in respect of this land?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power).-The answers are-

1. As stated in the reply to the previous question, the State Electricity Commissi<?n has leased land in Seaver-grove, ReservOIr, to the Commonwealth for the establishment of a small bore rifle range. The Commission has no further information as to who is erecting the building or providing the finance for it.

2. The Commonwealth is exempt from the provisions of the Town and Country Planning Act 1961. As the land has been demised to the Commonwealth, the .S~~te Electricity Commission has no responsIbIhty in the matter.

3. No.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. BROADMEADOWS TECHNICAL SCHOOL.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

When site works at Broadmeadows Technical School will be commenced and. when it is estimated that these works WIll be completed?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The answer P!Ovided by the Minister of EducatIon is-

Quotes are being currently sought from earth-moving contractors for the cartage of soil to be used in the developmet:tt of t~e Broadmeadows Technical School SIte. It IS anticipated that the successful. te!lderer should be ready to commence withm .the next 2 weeks and that the whole project should be completed 3 months from that time.

EDUCATION. SECONDARY SCHOOLS: FINANCE:

SCHOLARSHIPS: TRAVELLING ALLOWANCES.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

1. What is the per capita figure for recurrent expenditure in State secondary schools in Victoria?

2. What grants have been given to date to each independent secondary school in Victoria under the Educational Grants Act 1967 and how these grants were expended in each school?

3. How many secondary school pupils in Victoria attended independent schools and State schOOls, respectively, in 1968?

4. How many Commonwealth scholarships and junior Government scholarships were granted in Victoria to secondary school pupils last year and what proportion of these scholarships was granted to pupils attending independent secondary schools?

5. Whether there are differences in travelling allowance regulations for pupils attending State as against independent schools; if so, whether the Minister will detail these differences and explain the rationale behind them?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answers supplied by the Minister of Education are-

1. This information will be available within two weeks. The honorable member will be advised by letter as soon as possible.

2. Capitation grants paid to independent secondary schools are shown on schedule below.

3. Independent schoolsSecondary

State schoolsSecondary Technical Post primary

147,881 53,799

986

74,316

202,666

4. Of the 2,809 Commonwealth secondary scholarships awarded in Victoria in 1968, 1,388 were won by pupils attending independent schools.

Of the 20,181 junior scholarships awarded for 1968, 4,900 were awarded to pupils attending independent schools.

5. Primary school pupils.-No difference.

Secondary school pupils.-The regulation provides that to be eligible for a conveyance allowance a State secondary school pupil must reside not less than 3 miles from the nearest State school or State educational

Education. [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Education. 2021

centre providing the required standard of education, whereas for a pupil attending a registered secondary school or junior secondary school, the place of residence must be not less than 3 miles from the school attended and that school must be the nearest secondary school or junior secondary school of the appropriate denomination. In addition, the regulation also specifies that no allowance shall be granted to any pupil in attendance at a junior secondary school after he has completed the third year of the course prescribed in high schools or State technical schools.

The Governor in Council on the 18th November, 1969, approved of the following amendments to the regulation to benefit registered secondary school pupils:-

(a) Payment of conveyance allowances for pupils residing outside the metropolitan area attending the nearest school to which public transport is available on condition that .they reside not less than 3 miles from the nearest registered secondary school or junior secondary school of the appropriate denomination and that school is outside the metropolitan area;

(b) Payment of conveyance allowances on transfer from the junior secondary section to the senior secondary school of that school on condition the junior secondary section is the nearest registered secondary school of the appropriate nearest registered secondary school of the appropriate denomination and the pupil resides not less than 3 miles from the senior secondary section of that school.

Rationale for differences include the following:-

(i) The Department has uniform policies so far as sizes of grades, admission of pupils, direction of pupils to attend schools other than the nearest providing the standard of education required, &c. while the policies of registered schools vary from denomination to denomination and in some cases within the denomination.

(ii) There are many reasons why parents do not send their children to the nearest registered school of the appropriate denomination, even though they may be admitted at the nearest school.

(iii) The purpose of registration of schools as junior secondary or secondary is to maintain standards. If a school has junior secondary registration only, it normally does not have the specialist buildings, staff and equipment considered necessary for higher instruction.

Capitation grants paid to independent secondary schools pursuant to provisions of the Educational Grants Act 1967.

SchOOl. Amount.

Adass Israel School, Elsternwick .. Adventist Academy, Lilydale Adventist School, Hawthorn St. Agnes, Geelong St. Agnes, Highett St. Aloysius, Caulfield .. St. Ambrose Boys, Brunswick St. Andrew's, Werribee .. St. Anne's, East Kew St. Anthony's, Glenhuntly St. Augustine's Boys, Yarraville st. Augustine's Girls, Yarraville Academy of Mary Immaculate,

Fitzroy St. Aidan's Orphanage, Bendigo St. Aloysius, North Melbourne St. Anne's, Warrnambool Aquinus College, Ringwood Assumption College, Kilmore St. Augustine's, Creswick St. Augustine's, Geelong St. Augustine's, Kyabram St. Augustine's, Wodonga Ava Maria, Essendon Avila College, Mount Waverley Ballarat College, Ballarat .. Ballarat Church of England Gram-

mar, Wendouree . . . . Beth Rivkah Ladies College, East

St. Kida . . . . Bialik College, Hawthorn .. Geelong Church of England Gram-

mar Prep. School . . . . Brighton Grammar School, Brighton St. Benedict's, Burwood .. St. Bernadette's, Ivanhoe West St. Brendan's, Flemington St. Brigid's, Fitzroy North St. Bridget's, Grey thorn St. Bede's, Mentone St. Bernard's (Senior), West

Essendon St. Bernard's (Junior):' Moonee

Ponds St. Brendan's College, Coragulac St. Brendan's, Lakes Entrance .. Brigidine Convent, Beechworth " St. Brigid's Convent, Horsham .. Camberwell Church of England

Girls' Grammar . . . . Camberwell Grammar School .. Carey Baptist Grammar School,

Kew .. .. " Caulfield Grammar, East St. Kilda Christ Church Grammar, South

Yarra . . . . Clarendon Presbyterian Ladies

College, Ballarat Clyde School, Woodend Christ the King, Braybrook S t. Columba's, Elwood .. Corpus Christi, Kingsville .. Cathedral College, East Melbourne C.B.C. Parade, Bundoora C.B.C., East St. Kilda ..

$ 1,610 7,740 4,430

13,300 120 80

10,350 1,480

80 70

9,400 3,300

23,450 610

33,000 19,720 36,880 19,480

140 790

6,720 5,300

12,170 19,040 15,600

10,240

4,790 180

1,030 25,990 2,800 1,660 1,630 9,360

200 49,630

21,360

21,600 3,750

50 5,040 9,130

16,470 32,830

42,240 40,610

960

13,260 7,420

13,450 80

340 14,040 37,310 49,320

2022 Education. [ASSEMBLY. ] Education.

School. Amount.

Champagnat College, Wangaratta Chanel College, Geelong Chevion College, Burwood C.L.C., East Melbourne .. Clonard College, Geelong Convent of Mercy, Kyneton St. Coleman's, Mortlake St. Coleman's, Shepparton St. Columba's, Ballarat North St. Columba's, Essendon Convent F.C.J., Benalla " Convent of the Sacred Heart,

Glen Iris st. Damien's, Bundoora De La Salle, Malvern De La Salle, Prep., Malvern Elsternwick M.L.C. . . Essendon Grammar School st. Euphraza's, Collingwood Edmund Rice, Bundoora .. Fintona Girls' School, Balwyn .. Firbank Church of England Gram-

mar, North Brighton .. St. Finbar's, East Brighton .. St. Francis Xavier, Frankston .. St. Francis Xavier College, Ballarat

East St. Francis Xavier College, St.

Arnaud .. " .. Geelong Church of England Gram-

mar, Corio .. .. .. Geelong College, Geelong Gilmer College, Preston .. Gippsland Grammar, Sale Girton Church of England G.G.S.,

Bendigo . . . . St. George's Boys, Carlton St. Gabriel's, Castlemaine Genazzano, Kew . . . . Good Samaritan College, Koroit .. Haileybury College, Keysborough Hamilton & District & Alexandra

Colleges, Hamilton Hermitage Church of England,

Geelong . . . . Huntingtower, Mount Waverley Holy Cross, South Caulfield Holy Family, Doveton " Holy Rosary, Kensington Holy Cross, Daylesford .. Holy Family, Mary Knoll Holy Redeemer, Ripponlea Holy Rosary, Heathcote .. Ivanhoe Church of England Girls

Grammar .. " " Ivanhoe Grammar School, Ivanhoe St. Ignatius Boys, Richmond .. St. Ignatius Girls, Richmond Immaculate Conception, Omeo Immaculate Heart, Preston .. Immaculate Heart of Mary, Birchip St. J arne's, Gardenvale .. . . St. John's, Clifton Hill St. John's, Footscray West St. John's, Hawthorn St. John's, East Melbourne St. John the Baptist, Fern Tree Gully St. Joseph's, Black Rock

Mr. Rossiter.

$ 12,930 18,110 13,980 12,670 11,740 3,730 3,100

10,990 2,030

42,500 9,060

13,700 510

33,970 2,600

18,830 14,460 8,690 1,720

14,590

35,370 120 400

550

2,450

33,960 29,770

400 6,580

7,550 630

3,990 25,360

4,510 53,340

9,980

16,410 6,150

130 460

50 3,980

260 8,080 1,670

16,370 24,210

3,810 2,810

520 25,140

2,550 130

8,820 2,060 9,430 2,820

480 60

School. Amount.

St. Joseph's, West Brunswick St. Joseph's, Elsternwick St. Joseph's, Meredith St. Jame's, Sebastopol St. John's, Braybrook St. John's, Dandenong st. John's, Euroa St. Joseph's Tec., Abbotsford St. Joseph's, Altona West St. Joseph's Preparatory, Ascot Vale st. Joseph's College, Charlton St. Joseph's College, Cobram St. Joseph's College, Colac St. Joseph's College, Echuca st. Joseph's College, Fern Tree

Gully St. Joseph's, Geelong St. Joseph's, Hopetoun St. Joseph's, Iona St. Joseph's, Kerang St. Joseph's, Kilmore .. st. Joseph's, Korumburra .. St. Joseph's Convent, Maryborough st. Joseph's College, Mildura .. St. Joseph's College, Nagambie .. st. Joseph's College, North Fitzroy St. Joseph's College, North Mel-

bourne .. ., St. Joseph's College, NunlUrkah st. Joseph's College, Orbost St. Joseph's College, Ouyen St. Joseph's College, Penshurst St. Joseph's Tec., South Melbourne St. Joseph's College, Wangaratta .. St. Joseph's College, Warrnambool St. Joseph's College, Warragul Kilvington Girls Baptist, Ormond Kingswood College, Box Hill Korowa Church of England G.G.S.,

Glen Iris St. Kevin's, Ormond St. Kevin's Senior, Toorak St. Kevin's Junior, Toorak Kilbreda, Mentone Kilbride, Albert Park Kildare, Traralgon Kildare, Malvern St. Kilian's Girls, Bendigo Killester, Springvale Kilmare, Hawthorn Lauriston Girls, Armadale Lowther Hall Church of England

G.G.S., Essendon Lutheran School, Tarrington Lutheran School, Geelong Luther College, Croydon St. Lawrence's, Leongatha St. Leo's, Box Hill St. Liborious, Eaglehawk Loreto Abbey, Ballarat ., Loreto Convent, Ballarat Loreto Convent, Portland Loreto Convent, Toorak .. Malvern Memorial Grammar, Glen

Iris .. Melbourne Church of England

Grammar, South Yarra

$ 680 140 20

830 31,580 20,950

2,360 17,220 30,220 16,810 2,440 5,800

10,260 11,310

9,170 29,490

340 280

5,130 3,160 1,720 5,150

15,530 580

17,320

16,720 4,090 2,160 2,990

790 15,560 12,360 15,340

7,850 14,460 14,300

28,060 100

27,410 6,140

35,390 11,130 18,760 12,660 5,900

30,380 17,420 19,340

10,870 310 910

14,040 1,210

16,130 790

12,520 12,890 5,320

21,320

4,900

55,890

Education. [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Education. 2023

School .. Amount.

Melbourne Church of England G.G.S., South Yarra

Mentone Girls Grammar, Mentone Mentone Grammar, Mentone Methodist Ladies College, Kew Moronga Presbyterian Girls Col-

lege, Geelong Mount Scopus, Burwood St. Mary's, Dandenong St. Mary's Boys, Geelong St. Mary's Girls, Melbourne West St. Mary's Boys, Melbourne West St. Mary's Boys, East St. Kilda St. Mary's Girls, East St. Kilda St. Mary's, Kyneton St. Michael's, Ashburton St. Michael's, Melbourne North St. Monica's, Footscray .. St. Monica's Girls, Moonee Ponds Marcellin College, Bulleen St. Malachy's, Edenhope Marian College, Ararat .. Marian College, Sunshine Heights Marist Brothers College, Bendigo .. St. Mary's College, Hamilton St. Mary of the Angels, Nathalia .. St. Mary's, Bendigo . . . . St. Mary's, Donald St. Mary's, Myrtleford St. Mary's, Robinvale St. Mary's, Rushworth St. Mary's, Sea Lake St. Mary's, Swan Hill St. Mary's, Tatura st. Mary's, Warracknabeal St. Mary's, Yarram .. st. Mary's for the Deaf, Portsea Mater Christi, Belgrave .. Mazenod, Springvale .. Mercy College, North Coburg St. Michael's, Heyfield .. St. Michael's, Tallangatta St. Michael's, Wycheproof St. Monica's, Epping St. Monica's, Kangaroo Flat .. Mount Carmel College, Middle Park Mount Carmel, Rutherglen Mount Lilydale College, Lilydale Nagle College, Bairnsdale .. ' Our Lady Help of Christians, East

Brunswick .. Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, Middle

Park .. O'Neill College, Elsternwick Our Lady Help of Christians, West

Wendouree .. Our Lady of Mercy College, Cas

terton Our Lady of Mercy College, Wan-

garatta . . . . Our Lady of Sion, Box Hill Our Lady of Sion, Sale .. . . Our Lady of Sion College, Warragul Our Lady of the Sacred Heart, East

Bentlelgh . . . . . . OUf Lady's, Heidelberg .. . . Peninsula Church of England

School, Mt. Eliza Penleigh Presbyterian Ladies Col

lege, Moonee Ponds

$

32,880 15,900 28,940 90,630

25,730 44,410 14,350 19,180 2,220 6,780 1,170

120 60

3,770 2,180 6,080 2,590

37,380 4,330 9,140

18,290 19,220 6,620 3,040

20,710 2,620 7,720 3,010 2,140

400 5,260 1,910 3,980

340 340

15,190 8,350

30,280 530 400

2,310 16,180 1,390 1,740 4,560

13,190 7,850

2,180

320 14,150

1,130

3,290

3,650 22,220 12,580 9,230

30,650 23,560

19,360

11,510

School. Amount.

Presbyterian Ladies College, Bur-wood

St. Patrick's, Fitzroy .. St. Patrick's, Geelong West St. Peter and Paul's Girls, South

Melbourne St. Peter's, Clayton .. Padua, Mornington .. Parade Preparatory, Alphington St. Patrick's, Ballarat .. St. Patrick's, Camperdown St. Patrick's, East Melbourne St. Patrick's, Manangatang St. Patrick's, Port Fairy st. Patrick's, Pyramid Hill st. Patrick's, St. Arnaud St. Patrick's, Sale St. Patrick's, Traralgon .. . . St. Paul's School for the Blind, Kew St. Paul's, Altona North " St. Paul's Technical, Ballarat Presentation College, Moe Presentation Convent, Windsor Queen's C.E.G.G.S., Ballarat Ruyton Girls School, Kew Rossbourne House, Glen Iris St. Raphael's, Preston Regina Mundi, Thornbury Scotch College, Hawthorn .. Seventh Day Adventist, Warburton Shelford Church of England Girls

Grammar, Caulfield .. Strathcona Baptist Girls, Canter

bury Stratherne Presbyterian Girls

School, Hawthorn .. St. Anne's C.E.G.G.S., Sale St. Catherine's, Toorak St. Leonard's Presbyterian Girls

College, East Brighton St. Margaret's School, Berwick St. Michael's C.E.G.G.S., St. Kilda Sacred Heart, Fitzroy .. Sacred Heart, Sandringham Sacred Heart, Kew Sacred Heart, St. Albans Sacred Heart, St. Kilda West Sacred Heart, Ballarat East Sacred Heart, Geelong .. Sacred Heart, Hamilton Sacred Heart, Mansfield Sacred Heart, Oakleigh.. . . Sacred Heart College, Rochester .. Sacred Heart College, Seymour .. Sacred Heart College, Shepparton Sacred Heart High School, Yarra-

wonga Salesian College, Chadstone Salesian College, Sunbury Santa Maria, Northcote " Sancta Sophia, Glenroy " Siena, East Camberwell .. Star of the Sea, Apollo Bay Star of the Sea, Gardenvale Tintern Church of England Girls

Grammar, Ringwood East Toorak College Trinity Grammar School, Kew St. Thomas's, Clifton Hill

$

41,090 310 170

5,610 860

7,110 9,550

33,190 6,820 6,940 2,190

380 840

2,650 15,370 13,690

470 26,600

8,170 13,770 34,340

8,160 16,460

170 5,970 3,140

60,630 1,000

15,320

26,900

1,750 8,880

19,160

25,530 9,240

13,050 1,990

360 310

3,560 600

28,720 30,750 20,130

3,160 14,920 6,100 7,290

16,050

2,180 28,480 17,380 36,650 12,860 15,340

570 42,100

18,910 17,110 36,180

8,280

2024 Education. [ASSEMBLY.] Education.

School.

St. Thomas's Boys, Blackburn St. Thomas's Girls, Blackburn St. Thomas's, Terang Stella Maris, Frankston .. Trinity College, Colac St. Vincent De Paul's, Strathmore Vaucluse, Richmond . . . . St. Vincent De Paul's, South Mel-

bourne .. .. .. St. Vincent's College, Junarton Wesley College, Prahran Whitefriars, Donvale . . . . Yarra Valley Church of England,

Ringwood .. .. .. Yeshivah College, East St. Kilda .. Xavier College, Kew . . . . Xavier Preparatory, Brighton Beach Xavier Preparatory, Kew ..

Amount. $

10,170 8,510 7,720 5,340 6,850

400 19,680

150 8,720

48,460 14,540

9,070 5,550

34,240 4,300

11,540

Total 3,707,860

These grants are expended in meeting the costs incurred providing education at the particular school.

~ELBOURNE KINDERGARTEN TEACHERS COLLEGE.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) asked the ~inister of Labour and Industry, for the ~inister of Education-

1. How many students graduated from the Melbourne Kindergarten Teachers College in 1966, 1967, and 1968?

2. How many students are enrolled in the College in each year of the course in 1969?

3. Whether the College has a quota for admission; if so, how many applicants have been turned away in each of the past five years?

4. What is the basic educational requirement for a student to be eligible for admission to the College?

5. How many bursaries have been granted to students at the College in the past five years?

6. How many students eligible for bursaries have been refused due to lack of funds in the past five years?

7. What is the present value of a student bursary to the College?

8. What are the arrangements for supervision of the work of kindergarten teachers and other teachers in pre-school centres?

9. What is the breakdown of all Government expenditure on pre-school education for each year from 1964-65 to 1968-69, inclusive?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The answers supplied by the Minister of Education are-

1. 1966 61} (All three year diploma 1967 58 courses.) 1968 61

2. At the Beginning At present of the Year

1st year 112 102 2nd year 82 79 3rd year 54 53

3. In 1969, 150 places were available but only 112 have been filled; no suitable applicant has been turned away.

1968-100 places were available, but only 83 were filled. No suitable applicant was turned away during that year.

1967-70 places were available. All places were filled.



4. Six years of secondary school; matriculation is preferred but applicants in their second year of leaving may apply for individual consideration.

5. Thirty bursaries a year are granted by the Department of Health; 15 to metropolitan and 15 to country students.

Some additional bursaries were obtained from other sources. In 1965, there were 14 additional bursaries; 7 in equal value to the Department of Health (2 from the Church of England Kindergarten Council, 3 from the Presbyterian Kindergarten Council and 2 from the Melbourne City Council.) One of lesser value (Commonwealth scholarship) and 6 were from Tasmania.

In 1966 there were 13 additional bursaries. Four of equal value (1 from the Presbyterian Kindergarten Council, 2 from the Melbourne City Council and 1 from the Sunshine City Council.)

Four of lesser value (one Commonwealth scholarship, 3 from the Church of England Kindergarten Council) and 5 from outside sources (4 Tasmania and 1 Fiji.)

In 1967 there were 8 additional bursaries. Three of equal value (2 from the Melbourne City Council, 1 from the Sunshine City Council.) Five of lesser value (3 from the Church of England, 2 from the Commonwealth.)

In 1968 there were 7 additional bursaries, 3 of equal value (from Melbourne City Council) and 4 of lesser value, (2 Church of England and 2 Commonwealth.)

1969-there are 29 additional bursaries; 5 of equal value (1 Sunshine City Council, 1 Moorabbin City Council, 3 from Melbourne City Council) 17 of lesser value (2 Church of England, 1 Kew City Council and

Education [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Education. 2025

14 Commonwealth.) Seven from outside sources (Tasmania 1 and Northern Territory 6.)

6. The Secretary, Department of Health advises that from information available it is not possible to answer this question. Many girls apply for bursaries and decline to take them up for a variety of reasons, the principal one being that they have accepted the more remunerative Education Department bursary.

7. An allowance for tuition, fees, textbooks and class-room supplies is paid to all bursary holders as follows:-

1st year $336.40 2nd year $306.40 3rd year $306.40

9.

- 1964-65.

$ Subsidies to various authorities towards

the cost of maintaining kindergartens

In addition, bursary holders whose homes lie within the metropolitan area receive a living allowance of $436 per year, while those whose homes lie in country areas receive a living allowance of $984 per year.

8. The work of teachers in pre-school centres is supervised by appropriately qualified officers of the Maternal and Child Welfare Branch of the Department of Health. In addition, certain pre-school centres which are affiliated with the Free Kindergarten Union, the Church of England Kindergarten Council, the Presbyterian Kindergarten Council and the Baptist Kindergarten Council are also supervised by officers employed by those councils.

1965-66. 1966-67. 1967-68. 1968-69.

$ $ $ $

and pre-school centres .. · . 1~249,884 1,408,526 1,587,679 1,847,479 2,254,780

Capital expenditure re above · . 204,006 219,079 239,173 244,626 263,610

Pre-school scholarships .. .. 61,794 70,331 76,714 90,656 94,643

Melbourne Kindergarten Teachers College grants for recurrent costs · . 75,000 88,000 88,000 95.000 105,000

Melbourne Kindergarten Teachers College capital expenditure · . . . .. 18,353 175,750 199,934

1,590,684 1,785,936 2,009,919 2,453,511 2,917,967

TEACHERS: ENROLMENTS: FINANCE: SIZE OF CLASSES: SCHOOL FACILITIES: SOCIAL WORKERS.


1. How many teachers of infant classes in State schools hold the trained infant teachers 'certificate?

2. How many :teachers of infant classes in State schools hold both the trained infant teachers certificate and the kindergarten teachers certificate?

3. What percentage of the total number of teachers of infant -classes in State schools hold either one or both of these certificates?

4. How many children below the age of 5 years attend primary school in Victoria and what is :this figure in terms of percentage of the total number of children below 5 years?

5. What was the per capita expenditure on State education in Victoria in 1968-69 for primary school children and secondary school children, respectively?

6. How many primary school teachers are teaching in secondary schools in Victoria?

7. What is the present teacher/pupil ratio goal of the Education Department and when the Department expects to reach this goal?

8. How many classes contain more than 50 pupils in State primary schools and independent primary schools, respectively?

9. How many more class-rooms and teachers in Victorian primary schools would be necessary to reduce the average size of classes to 35 pupils?

10. What arrangements are made in the Department for the planners of services to have access to demographers and demographic research?

11. Whether the Department plans to give special financial help and other assistance to inner suburban schools serving lowincome families?

12. What percentage of Victorian (Class II.) s,chools have assembly halls, central libraries, art rooms, and craft rooms, respectively?

2026 Education. [ASSEMBLY.] Education.

13. How many social workers are employed by the Department and what are the duties of these officers?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answers provided by the Minister of Education are-

1, 2 ·and 3. This information is not held in the Department. The placement of teachers in grades is left to the discretion of principals. To obtain this informaton it would be necessary to ask the principals of all State schools :to furnish returns showing these details and then collate it. Allowing for the usual delays in obtaining all returns it could be that this information would not be available much before Christmas.

4. Children below the age of 5 years at primary schools in Victoria 1st August, 1968:

-State 1,094 -Independent 413

Total 1,507

As a percentage of the total number of children below 5 years

Number at School 1,507 -------- = -- = 0.47 per cent. Children 0-4, June, 1968 323,340

5. It is expected that these figures will be available within :two weeks. The honorable member will be advised by letter as soon as possible.

6. At 1st August, 1969, 426 primary teachers were tea-ching in secondary (excluding technical) schools in Victoria.

7. As calculated in the official return of members of the Teaching Service 31st March, 1969, the over-all pupil-teacher ratio was 20.1 as compared with 21 in 1968 and 22.1 in 1967. Twenty is regarded as a reasonable goal for the present but changes in educational thought and practice may alter this in the future.

8. No classes contain more than 50 pupils in State primary schools. Statistics on independent primary schools are not kept in the Department.

9. This goal has already been achieved. In February, 1969, the average dass size in primary schools was 31.9 and the average class size in special class I and II schools was 34.5.

10. This matter will be one aspect of the research and planning functions to be developed by the newly appointed Assistant Director-General.

11. Such plans are under consideration at present.

12. Assembly halls are not provided for class II schools. Central libraries are not generally provided for this class of school but they do exist at Alvie, Merino and

Murrayville consolidated schools. Eight schools out of a total of 219 class II schools have artlcraft rooms.

13. The Education Department does not have an employee's title "social worker", but employs professionally qualified social workers under the title "assistants to the departmental psychologists". These are categorized on the professional roll. The Psychology and Guidance Branch has an establishment for 5 assistants to the departmental psychologist, but at present only 3 of these are filled.

They work in a co-operative professional relationship with educational psychologists and teachers. Their work is varied, as they undertake social casework with children, adolescents and their families, with the physically handicapped, mentally retarded, and with any family or child referred by the schools for problems other than those which are educational.

Their roles and those of guidance officers overlap, but social workers are particularly involved with long-term cases, and with family problems where knowledge of community resources or referral to other agencies is necessary. Social workers handle highly complex and delicate problems in human relations and are frequently involved with families of children who are seriously disturbed, such as " sch<?ol refusal" cases. Such problems reqUIre long-term intensive social casework.

COUNCIL OF PUBLIC EDUCATION. FUNCTIONS AND MEMBERSHIP.


1. What are :the present functions of the Council of Public Education?

2. Whether these functions have altered since the formation of the Council in 191O?

3. What are the names, qualifications, and official positions of the members of the Council?

4. How often the Council meets and whether its deliberations are a matter of public record?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answers supplied by the Minister of Education are-

1. T.he general functions are stated in subsection (1) of section 10 of the Education Act 1958, and the specific functions relating to registration are stated in section 36. * * *

2. There has been no significant change in the functions of the Council. The Council (previously the Teachers and Schools Registration Board of Victoria) first met in April, 1911, and its functions and duties were laid down in Act 2301 of the 4th January, 1911.

Council .of Public [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Education. 2027

3. Members of the Council of Public Education.

F. H. Brooks, M.Sc., Dip.Ed., F.R.A.C.I., F.A.C.E. (Director-} . General and President)

R. A. Reed, B.Sc., Dip.Ed., M.A.C.E. Representatives of the Education R. P. McLellan, B.A., B.Ed., M.A.C.E. Department A. E. Schruhm, M.A., Dip.Ed., M.A.C.E.

T. H. Coates, O.B.E., Ph.D. (Lond.), B.Sc., M.Ed., F.A.C.E. } The Right Reverend Monsignor J. F. Kelly, M.A.C.E. Representatives Miss M. E. Cunningham, O.B.E .. B.Sc., (Melb.), Dip.Ed. (Lond.) schools

of registered

Professor A. G. Austin, M.C., B.A., M.Ed. JRepresentatives of University of Professor P. J. Fensham, Ph.D. (Bristol and Cantab.), M.Sc., Melbourne, Monash University,

(Melb., A.R.A.C.I., A.B.Ps.S., A.A.Ps. (Science Education) La Trobe University Professor R. J. Goldman, M.A., Ph.D., F.B.Ps.S.

R. E. Parry, B.Sc., B.Ed.

E. P. Goette

} Representative of the Victoria

Institute of Colleges

P. P. Jackson, C.B.E., B.E., M.I.E. (Aust.), F.Inst.Mech.E. E. T. Jackson, B.Sc., Dip.Ed., M.A.C.E. } Representatives

education of technical

G. Bartle, B.A., B.Mus., Dip.Ed.

C. R. Badger, M.A., M.A.C.E. C. P. Cook, B.A., B.Ed., M.A.I.A.S., M.A.C.E. A. L. Cahill C. R. Nichols, O.B.E.

F. H. Ruler

} Repre~entative of

mUSIC

~ R~presentatives J mterests

education in

of industrial

} Representative of industrial and

agricultural interests

C. A. McKenna, Registrar.

4. Normally once in each quarter. Minutes of meetings are kept and, although not made public, are not regarded as confidential when confirmed. A report is prepared annually and laid before both Houses of Parliament.

••• Functions of Council. No. 6143 s. 10.-10. (1) It shall be the duty of the Council

to report to the Minister upon-(a) methods of or developments in public

education in other countries if in its opinion it is desirable to introduce such methods or developments into Victoria;

(b) any matters in connexion with public education referred to it by the Minister.

Register of teachers and register of schools. No. 6143 s. 36. Third Schedule. Fourth Schedule.

36. (1) The Council of Public Education shall make and keep-

(a) a register of teachers in the form or to the effect of the Third Schedule;

(b) a register of schools in the form or to the effect of the Fourth Schedule.

(2) (a)

(b)

The Council may from time to timemake upon the register of teachers

an entry of any additional qualification of any registered teacher;

add to or revise the register of teachers;

(c) add to or revise the register of schools.

(3) The Council may with the approval of the Governor in Council make regulations for or with respect to-

(a) determining the courses of study and training and the examinations entitling persons to be so registered as teachers;

(b) regulating the granting by the Council of certificates of registration of teachers or of schools and the form of such certificates;

(c) providing for the keeping of the registers and the mode of registering and making additions or revisions;

(d) defining what schools shall for the purposes of this Part respectively be sub-primary schools, primary schools, junior secondary schools, secondary schools or technical schools (as the case may be);

(e) regarding the reciprocal admission of teachers from other States;

(f) for or relating to the time and place of and the quorum of meetings of the Registration Committee, and for or relating to the management and conduct of business at such meetings;

(g) generally carrying this Part into effect.

2028 Department [ASSEMBLY.] of Health.

SCHOOL ADMISSION AGE.


When the Education Department last gave consideration to the age at which children should be admitted to primary schools and what conclusions were reached?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The answer provided by the Minister of Education is-

The -age of admission at which children should be admitted to primary school is given consideration each year. The matter was considered on the 26th August this year and a detailed notice, "Admission of Pupils; Age Restrictions" was published on page 531 of the Education Gazette of the 13th October, 1969. Children who reach the age of 5 years on or before the 30th June, 1970, will be eligible for admission to primary school in February, 1970. In country areas in isolated class II schools and in all class III schools, children may be admitted on the 1st July, 1970, if they would reach the age of 5 years on or before the 31st December, 1970. Applications for under age admissions in compassionate cases will be considered on their merits.

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. PRE-SCHOOL AND PLAY CENTRES.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) asked the Minister of State Development, for the Minister of Health-

1. How many subsidized pre-school and play centres exist in Victoria?

2. How many of these centres are situated in country areas?

3. How many unsubsidized pre-school and play centres there are in Victoria?

4. How many children at present attend pre-school and play centres and what percentage is this figure of the total number of children in the population eligible to attend such centres?

5. Whether subsidized centres have waiting lists for admission; if so, what is the average size of these waiting lists?

6. What are the present subsidy arrangements for pre-school and play centres and whether there are any special arrangements for subsidies in low-income areas?

7. What percentage of the children attending subsidized pre-school and play centres received medical examinations at these centres in the years 1965 to 1968, inclusive?

8. Which officers and which Departments carried out these examinations?

9. Whether psychological assessments are made for the children atttending subsidized pre-school and play centres, what are the arrangements for these assessments, and which officers and departments carry them out?

10. What arrangements are made for referral of children found to be suffering from physical and psychological disabilities?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development) .-The answers provided by the Minister of Health are-

1. 777 centres. 2. 352 centres. 3. 253 centres. 4. 43,232 children attend pre-school and

play centres and as all children in Victoria between the ages of 0 and 5 years old would be eligible to attend day nurseries, play centres, kindergartens, &c., this is a percentage of only 11.09.

5. It is known that some centres have waiting lists for admission. b?t the figures are not available as admISSIons are controlled by local committees.

6. The present subsidy payments made by the State Government are--

Pre-school kindergartens-a subsidy equal to the salary entitlement of the kindergarten teacher;

Pre-school play centre--$1,500 a year. Creches and day nurseries-$250 a year

for each child. There are no special arrangements for

subsidies in low-income areas.

7. The percentage of children atte~d!ng subsidized pre-schOOl centres receIvmg medical examinations during the years 1965 to 1968 was 80.

8. Medical officers conducting medical examinations were either-

(a) employed by Department of Health; or (b) employed by municipal councils; or (c) in private practice.

9. No. Psychological ass.essment of children is not made as a routme at pre-school centres. In special cases such. assessm~nt may be made by the psychologIst workmg with the Maternal, Infant and Pre-School Welfare Division of the Department of Health or the child may be referred to a Mental Health Authority Clinic or the Department of Psychiatry at the Royal Children's Hospital.

10. A child found to be suffering fr~m any defect is referred first to his own famIly doctor or to a hospital at which he may have been attending. If the family doctor wishes, the child may be referred to a special clinic such as the Mental Health Authority Clinic at Bo?verie-stre~t ?r the Royal Children'S HospItal PsychIatrIC Department. For audiometric testing he may

Department of Health. [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Wheat Industry. 2029

be referred to the Commonwealth Acoustic Laboratory, to the Glendonald School for the Deaf run by the Education Department, or to one of the other hospitals.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) asked the Minister of State Development, for the Minister of Health-

1. Whether the Department of Health attempts to educate the community, particularly new migrant citizens, on the desirability for pre-school education?

2. Whether the Department sets standards of the desirable staff/child ratio in subsidized pre-school and play centres; if so, what is the present stafflchild ratio, and whether any limits exist on this ratio at the present time?

3. Apart from staff/child ratios whether the Department lays down other standards as a prerequisite for subsidy of pre-school and play centres; if so, what are these requirements?

4. How many of the subsidized pre-school centres have trained kindergarten teachers in attendance?

5. What is the difference between the salary of a trained kindergarten teacher and a trained infant teacher?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development).-The answers supplied by the Minister of Health are-

1. The Department of Health does a considerable amount of community health education in regard to the value of preschool education and in the case of new migrant citizens, gives them guidance in how to go about enrolling at pre-school centres. Infant welfare sisters in the community are in close touch with migrants and pre-school centres in their areas.

2. The Department sets standards in regard to the staff to -children ratio in subsidized pre-school centres. The recommended staff to children ratio for a preschool kindergarten is 1 trained teacher plus 1 untrained assistant to 25 children and the limit is 30 children. In the case of a pre-school play centre the ratio is 1 trained play leader plus 1 untrained staff member to 15 children. One person must not be left to -care for children in a centre without a helper.

3. Apart from staff to children ratio, the Department lays down standards in regard to qualifications of staff, length and nature of programme, building requirements, and equipment.

4. There are 371 subsidized centres whose teachers are graduates of kindergarten teachers' colleges.

5. If employed in a pre-school centre the salary of a trained kindergarten teacher and a trained infant teacher is the same.

Session 1969.-74

WHEAT INDUSTRY.

PRODUCTION QUOTAS.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Lands, for the Minister of Agriculture-

In respect of the 1969-70 wheat harvest how many primary producers and share farmers, respectively, have been granted the following quotas:-(QI) less than 1,000 bushels; (b) more than 1,000 bushels and less than 2,000 bushels; (c) more than 2,000 bushels and less than 3,000 bushels; (d) more than 3,000 bushels and less than 4,000 bushels; (e) more than 4,000 bushels and less than 5,000 bushels; (f) more than 5,000 bushels and less than 6,000 bushels; (g) more than 6,000 bushels and less than 7,000 bushels; (h) more than 7,000 bushels and less than 8,000 bushels; (i) more than 8,000 bushels and less than 9,000 bushels; (j) more than 9,000 bushels and less than 10,000 bushels; and (k) in excess of 10,000 bushels?

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands).-The answer supplied by the Minister of Agriculture is-

Under ithe wheat quota delivery scheme, a quota is allocated only to a person who is the owner or lessee of the land to which the quota is attached. A share farmer is not entitled to a quota.

Quotas for the 19£9-70 wheat harvest have been allocated as follows:-

Quota Holders.

(a) Less than 1,000 bushels 4,347

(b) More than 1,000 bushels and less than 2,000 bushels .. 3,036

(0) More than 2,000 bushels and less than 3,000 bushels .. 2,307

(d) More than 3,000 bushels and less than 4,000 bushels .. 1,856

(e) More ;than 4,000 bushels and less than 5,000 bushels .. 1,333

(1) More than 5,000 bushels and less than 6,000 bushels .. 1,048

(g) More than 6,000 bushels and less than 7,000 bushels .. 773

(h) More than 7,000 bushels and less than 8,000 bushels .. 556

(0 More than 8,000 bushels and less th~ 9,000 bushels .. 426

(j) More than 9,000 bushels and less than 10,000 bushels .. 330

(k) In excess of 10,000 bushels 1,026

17,038

2030 State Electricity Commission [ASSEMBLY.] Industrial Dispute.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE. MOOMBA FESTIVAL.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).--I ask the Pre'mier and Treasurer whether the Govem'ment makes >any substantial grants for Moomba; if so, does it intend to inquire into the activities of the Moomba com'mittee tlO ascertain ,whether the press suggestions are 'correct, and if they 'are wiU the Government's attitude towards f.uture grants be affected?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer).-For ,many years the Government has given fairly sm'aH grants to Moomba and, in recent years, a Minister has been on its com'mittee. I have no doubt that the M,inister 'wiH report if he believes that anything untoward is going on.

Mr. HOLDING.-Who is the Minister? Sir HENRY BOLTE.-lIhe Minister

of Labour and Industry.

KIA ORA FLATS. Mr. LOXTON (Prahran).-Notkes

to quit have been served on tenants by the new owners of Kia Ora flats, 449 St. KHda-road, St. Kilda, which :is within my electorate. Can the Attorney-General assure 'me whether the rental investigator -is investigating the matter, and whether :itwiU be treated with some urgency?

Mr. REID ('Attomey-General).The honorable member for Prahran raised this quesNonwith me ,last week and presented a petition to me on behalf of the tenants of Kia Ora flats. As the result of his representations, I have arranged for the rental investigator to treat the matter as urgent. I am now awaiting his report, and when it is received-I expect this to be shortly-I shaH treat 'as a 'matter of urgency the question whether these flats should be declared under the provislions of the Landlord and Tenant Act so that the tenants 'may have protee-tion against any landlord 'seeking an undue increase in rents.

STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION INDUSTRIAL DISPUTE.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West).-Will the Premier 'and Treasurer inform me whether the

co-ordinating committee associated with the Premier's office .is in any way directing or advising the State Electrieity Commission in relation to the present industrial dispute?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (premier and Treasurer).-The ,answer is "No".

Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East).-WiU the 'Minister of Transport inf,Q!I~m me ·whether the Railways Com'm'issioners and the Tra,mways Board issued a direct statement that trains and tra'ms would not be running on the occasion of the last State E1ectridty Com'mission stoppage?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport).-It is my reoollect,ion that the railways and the tramways were unable to run services because the State Electrieity Commisslion notified them that power would not be available. Further, the Tram'way and Motor Omnibus Employees AssociaNon 'decided -to join :in the strike, aHhough the Australian Railways Union did not do so. As I understand the matter, the State Electricity Commiss'ion advised both the Railways Com'missioners and the Tram'ways Board that power would not be available for them to run anything Hke proper serv.ices.

It now ,comes back to me that it was first understood that sufficient power would be 'available to run a partial rail and tram service. That is what both authorities sought to do. However, the unions, partkul'arly those in the Latrobe Valley, decided that they ,would not make that much power available. As a consequence, the State Electricity Com'mission, becoming aware of that situation from the unions in the Latrobe VaHey, sensibly inf,ormed the 'authoflities that they had no option in the 'matter. I 'must 'also say again that the Tram,way Association decided to join in the strike but the Railways Union did not.

Mr. FENNESSY {Brunswick East).-Further to that ans'wer, 'would the Minister deny that the Tram~ways Board directly indicated that n.Q trams would be ava'Hable, but the Tramway

Shopping Facilities at [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Happy Valley Estate. 2031

As'sociation took the position that, as no tramwaymen would be working, the drivers of the buses would not work? L'et us get it dear.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-1 cannot add to what I have just said because I am not in possession of the information. The Tramway Association withdrew its :men so that buses and trams could not run.

Mr. FENNEssY.-Only the buses; the Minister should get his facts straight.

Mr. WiILCOX.-1t is the same union.

MOOMBA FESTIVAL. Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).

Can the Minister of Labour and Industry inform me whether the newly-formed private company to direct the Moomba festival for 1970 will have him on the board as the Government's representative and, if so, will the Government financially support the festival?

Mr. ROSSITER (M;inister of Labour and Industry) .-1 am at a loss to understand what is meant by the phrase "the newly-formed private company". The honorable member should have referred to the personnel of this newly-formed company because I have no knowledge of what he means. Control of the Moomba festival is vested in the Melbourne City Council, and to conduct the festival in a proper fashion the Council has formed a company. The shareholders of the company run the festival in conjunction with the Moomba board of directors which comprises representatives from industry, the Melbourne City Council, the State Government, and certain other interested parties I have no knowledge of any newly-formed company linked with the Moomba festival.

SHOPPING FACILITIES AT HAPPY VALLEY ESTATE.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-The Minister of Housing should be acquainted with the replacement of

shops in the Happy Valley Estate, North Melbourne. I ask the honorable gentleman whether his attention has been directed to published reports in the local press that a person by the name of A. G. Waite has been interviewing residents of the area and showing them plans of the proposed new shops. Is the honorable gentleman aware that these plans have not been shown to any Parliamentary representative for the area?

Mr. MEAGHER (Ministe~ of Housing) .-Tentative plans of the proposed new shops in the Happy Valley area were shown recently to representatives of the North Melbourne Association who went to the office of the Housing Commission seeking information which had b~en promised to them. IMr. A. G. WaIte, who went to the Commission on behalf of residents of North Melbourne, saw these plans. He was not given a copy of the plans to take away.

Mr. CLAREY.-He is not a resident of the area and the Parliamentary representatives have not had the courtesy of being shown the plans.

Mr. MEAGHER.-The representatives of the Association who went to the Commission are now considering what they desire done and will advise the Commission whether or not the tentative plans will solve the problen;t. Until the Commission receives theIr reply, no official plans will be in existence. When an official proposal is prepared, all members of Parliament will receive a copy if they so desire.

NOISE OF DIESEL ENGINES AT LAKES ENTRANCE.

Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland West) .-Has the attention of the Minister of Public Works been drawn by residents of Lakes Entrance to the noise made by work boats on the offshore installations caused by diesel engines being left running all night, and to the fact that by the installation of power outlets air-conditioning plants may be operated by electric power, thus eliminating a noise nuisance to the people of Lakes Entrance? .

2032 State Electricity Commission [ ASSEMBLY.] Industrial Dispute.

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-My attention has not been drawn to this problem, but I will have the matter referred to by the honorable member investigated.

FISHING INDUSTRY. Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North).

Is the Chief Secretary aware of the present hostility of many professional fishermen because interstate supplies of snapper have flooded the Victorian market whilst Victorian fishermen are banned from engaging in long-line fishing activities; if so, will he consider lifting the ban on long-line fishing; if not, will he look into the situation at the earliest opportunity?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-1 am aware of the problem and today I made a statement that the Government was considering the question of allowing professional fishermen to engage in long-line fishing. I hate to think of the storm we will bring on our heads from amateur fishermen, but in view of the number of snapper at present being caught in Port Phillip Bay there is justification for this action.

STATE ELECTRICITY COM'MISSION INDUSTRIAL DISPUTE.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-1 direct a question to the Premier. Last week the honorable gentleman indicated to the Secretary of Cabinet that this week he would be prepared to consider the use of the Essential Services Act as his peculiar method of solving some of Victoria's industrial problems.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-He did not do anything of the sort.

Mr. HOLDING.-He did. The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon

Christie ).-Order! The honorable member should ask the question without any help.

Mr. HOLDING.-In view of the assurance given last week by the Premier to the honorable member for Glenhuntly that he would consider the implementation of the Essential

Services Act, will the Premier inform the House of the profound matters concerning this issue discussed within the Liberal Party and Cabinet this morning?

The SPEAKER.-Order! I must rule the question, as it refers to a political party, out of order.

Mr. HOLDING.-I said the Cabinet, and last week the Premier indicated that he would be prepared to inform the House of the result of Cabinet's deliberations. Is the honorable gentleman prepared to let the House into the secret of those deliberations?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (premier and Treasurer) .-There is nothing secretive about this matter. The honorable member knows full well that a year or so ago the Government endeavoured to amend the Essential Services Act. By the combined efforts of two parties in another place, the move was defeated. Everything about the Essential Services Act is already known. What is not known is whether an attempt will be made again to amend the Act and, if so, whether it will be amended successfully. If the Government decides to act on these lines I would seek the support of the honorable member because I am sure that he views with the same disfavour as I do the current dispute and the position in which it is placing the State, which is being held to ransom by a large number of communist-led unions.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-Does the Premier seriously state to the House that, having known of the contemplated stoppages to take place this week, he is not in a position to inform the House of the legal position and 'the enforcability of the Essential Services Act? If so, why has he not obtained the advice of the Solicitor-General?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (premier and Treasurer) .-The honorable member asks whether the invoking of the Essential Services Act would be effective under current conditions with a projected 48~hour strike. He

Experimental Plot at Murrayville. [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Daylight Saving. 2033

knows. and I know. that it would be useless to meet what might happen towards the end of this week. Any responsible Government must take due action and plan for a strike of longer duration, when the public could be held to ransom not only for hours but for days and even weeks. The Government must use any means at its disposal to protect the general public. The Essential Services Act, particularly if it were amended, would be the only weapon which this Parliament would have.

PROPOSED CAR PARK AT HALF MOON BAY.

Mr. WILTON (BToadmeadows).Will the Minister of Lands inform the House of the decision that has been made by the Port Phillip Authority in regard to an application lodged with the Authority by -the Sandringham City Council for the construction of a car park at Half Moon Bay?

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands) .-1 ask the honorable member to put his question on the Notice Paper.

EXPERIMENTAL PLOT AT MURRAYVILLE.

Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-I direct a question to the Minister of Lands. Having inspected an -area of land south 'of Murrayville with regard to an experimental plot, 1 should like to know how long it will be before residents of the area are advised of the conditions of this experimental plot and when they can be implemented. Further, as the Minister has created within his Department a system whereby replies are required within a month to information sought by the Department-this applies also to information sought from Imunic'ipalities-when can the Mallee Regional Committee e~pect a reply to its letter dated 18th September, 1969, on the same subject?

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands) .-1 am not familiar with the letter. I invite the honorable member to place his question on the Notice Paper.

DAYLIGHT SAVING. Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).

When the Chief Secretary attends the daylight saving conference in New South Wales on 10th December, will he present any evidence for or against daylight saving on behalf of Victoria, or will he merely attend the conference as an observer?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-1 have indicated, both publicly and privately, that 1 should be happy to have the views of members of Parliament and people outside on the question whether daylight saving is desirable or not.

Mr. FENNESSy.-How would you get the inf.ormation?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-One obta'ins views-alm·ost hourly-by letter. If the honorable member for Brunswick East wishes to make a submission, he is entitled to do so. The introduction of questions without notice was an experiment, and it seems to me to be becoming a disorderly aff·air. 1 hope to be able to present a case on behalf of the State . of Victoria, but SQ far the letters and the submissions 1 have received and the discussions 1 have had indicate that there is a wide variance of opinion on the question. Perhaps some members of the Opposition, instead of being obstructive, might submit their views to me so that I will have the benefit of their opinions as well as the views of other members of the House. 1 shall then be in a position to discuss with Cabinet and my party the view that Victoria should present to the conference.

POP CONCERT AT TORQUAY. Mr. WILKES (Northoote).-I ask

the Minister of Lands whether he has given approval for a pop concert to be held at 1iorquay.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Is this a matter for the Lands Depart'ment?

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands).-Yes, Mr. SpeaI{er. An appltication has been made f.or the

2034 Police Moto~ ~ycle Speedometers. [ASSEMBLY.] Motor Vehicle Driving Tests.

use 'Of an oval. for ,a p'Op ooncert at the end of this year. The area in question would be 'completely lacking in proper Tacilities !f.or hygiene, and the Police FIOTce .of Vict'Oria Iwould be totally 'Opposed to the h'Olding of such a function. The answer which will be conveyed to the Leader of the Opposition, ·who wrote requesting this function--

Mr. HOLDING.-I did? Sir W,ILLIAM 'McDONALD.-The

anslwer will be " No ".

POLICE MOTOR CYCLE SPEEDOMETERS.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-I direct a questilOn to the Chief Secretary. As many people are being prosecuted ~or ex'ceeding the 35 ,mUes an hour speed Hmit by as little as 3 or 4 mBes ,an hour, Ican the honorable gentle'man inform me 'what ,method is used by ~motor ,cycle police to test the accuracy of their speedometers?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary).-I doubt that the honoT,able member ~or Coburg ,can prove that people are being prosecuted fnr driving at 3 or 4 miles an hour beyond the speed limit. I have no personal knowledge .of the tests 'made of poHce motor 'cycle ,speedometers, but if the honorable member cites cases to 'me I will have them exa,mined.

SALE OF LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS.

Mr. HOLDING {Leader 'Of the Opposition).-Has the Minister for Fuel and Power been able to fix a time to di,souss, 'with officers of EssoB.H.P., the ,sale of liquefied petroleum gas to Japan at lower rates than thlOse available to local ,manufacturers? If not, .i'S the honorable gentleman prepared t'O treat this as a Imatter of urgency?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and P.ower).-I have not fixed 'a Hme for these disc'Us,sions with officers of B.H.P. or Esso. I indicated to the honorable member last Wednesday that this matter had been mentioned. I 'assure him that it win proceed without much delay.

MOTOR VEHICLE DRIVING TESTS.

Mr. BIRRELL :(Geelong).-I direct a question to the Chief Secret'ary. In exceptional circumstances in which the holding of a driving licence 'might mean, to an immigrant who has been in Australia for a Hme, but who does not hold a licence from the 'country he came from, the difference between obtaining a job or not, would the honorable gentleman be willing to arrange for the waiving of certain o.f the conversational parts of the dri¥ing licence tests?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary).-It 'would be as well Ifor the honorableme.mber for Geelong tlO place that question on the NoNce Paper; the matter is fairly complicated land raises certain p~O'blems.

CHARGES FOR ELECTRICITY. Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North).

I direct a question to the Pre'mier. Last week, it was reported that the honorable gentleman said that he 'was considering reducing the charges for electridty in V'ietoria. IIf that is correct, could he indicate by how much he had intended to reduce the cost of electricity t'0 the norma!l householder?

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie ).-Should this question not properly be directed to the Minister for Fuel 'and Power?

Mr. TREZISE.-The Premlier :made the statement.

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer).-If I re,member correctly, it was said last week that the Gover.nment was s1'1ll awaiting recommendations ifr.om the State Electridty Com,mission. Until they have been received, the Government is not in a position to consider fully what reductions, >if 'any, wiH be 'made in the cost ofelectridty to any particular section of :consumers. I am not in a pos'ition to' say any more, eX'cept to indicate that it is the desire of the Com,mission to effect some reduction in charges from 1st January, 1970.

Emergency Wheat [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Storages. 2035

UNDERGROUND RAILWAY. Mr. GINIFER (Deer P.ark).-Now

that the 'Federal Ministry has been reconstructed, is the Treasurer in a position to indicate whether further submissions have been made to the Federal Treasurer in regard to an alloca tion of finance for the proposed metropolitan underground loop line?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (prem,ier and Treasurer) .-Any negotiations which have taken place in the past and which are continuing have been with the 'Prime Minister and II understand that the right honorable gentleman will be consulting his Treasurer on this ,matter. No submissions have been made to the Federal Treasurer as such.

INDUSTRIAL ESTATE AT MORWELL.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .--Have the :Minister for Fuel and Power and the Govern'ment conside:red the offer ,from the 'Morwell Shire Council to acquire the land and develop an industrial estate on the site of the Lurgi gas plant at Morwell?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power) .-Up to date this matter has not been Iconsidered by the Government although yesterday II believe some rnembers of the Gas and Fuel Corporation met representatives of the ,Morwell Shire Council and had discussions on this project. r think it would be necessary for the Corporation to transmit its thoughts on the subject to the Government before the matter ,'was actually considered.

EMERGENCY WHEAT STORAGES. Mr. WILTON (Br.oadm,eadows).

Can the Premier add anything to the information which he has supplied to this House in serial form in recent weeks--

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member should ask his question.

Mr. WILTON.-With due respect, I am asking a question. Can the honorable gentleman add anything

to the information he has already given the House in regard to the ere:ction of e'mergency storages by the Australian Wheat Board as a result of the announcement made by the Minister for Primary 'Industry some weeks ago?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (premier and Treasurer) .-Unfortunately, no.

STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION.

Mr. FENNESSY (Bruns'wick East) .-1 ask the Minister 'for Fuel and Power: Is it a fact that the State Electricity Commission was negotiating with those municipalities which retail electrical power for a takeover and that the terms which the Commission placed on the take-over were unacceptable to the municipalities and the Com,mission ceased negotiations?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power) .-To the best of my knowledge, since .J have been ·Minister for Fuel and Power there have been no negotiations between .the -State Electridty Commission and the :municipalities about the taking over of supply areas.

IMr. 'FENNESSY.-My information is different.

Mr. BALtFOUR.---JJf the honorable member 'will put his question on the Notice Paper I shall endeavour to give him an answer.

BANK CHARGES. Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and

Treasurer) .-By leave, last ,week the Leader of the Opposition asked me a question about bank charges and I invited him to repeat it or to put it on the Notice Paper. The honorable member asked if the increased bank charges which will operate shortly will apply to the Government and what will be the costs to the Government. The simple answer is that the Government does not pay bank charges to private trading banks.

2036 Motor Car (Traffic , [ASSEMBLY.] Offenders) Bill.

SUMMARY OFFENCES (TRESPASS TO FARMS) BILL.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary), by leave, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Summary Offences Act 1966 with respect to trespassing for certain purposes upon lands used in connexion with primary production.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was brought in and read

a first time.

THEATRES (PERFORMANCE OF SACRED WORKS) BILL.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary), by leave, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend Part I. of the Theatres Act 1958 with respect to certain performances on Christmas Day or Good Friday.


a first time.

NORTH MELBOURNE LANDS (LOANS TO LESSEES) BILL.

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands), by leave, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the North Melbourne Lands Act 1956.


a first time.

EDUCATION (ARMY APPRENTICES SCHOOL) BILL. Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour

and Industry), by leave, moved for leave to bring in a Bill relating to the Army Apprentices School, at Balcombe and for purposes connected therewith.


a first time.

MOTOR CAR (TRAFFIC OFFENDERS) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from November 12) on the motion of Sir Arthur Rylah (Chief Secretary) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-This is a Bill to amend the Motor Car Act 1958 to make provision for the suspension of driving licences for certain offences. It stems from an examination of a points demerit system made by the Road Safety Committee. As honorable members are aware, the Road Safety Committee is an allparty Committee which was established by the Government some two years ago. The Committee made certain recommendations to the Government, most of which have been embodied in the proposed legislation. The necessity for the introduction of this measure arises from the fact that there are too many inexperienced drivers who break the law on Victorian roads.

A points demerit system should act as a deterrent against bad driving, but as they are framed the provisions of this measure will not lead to the elimination of bad driving but will simply serve to punish bad drivers. Punitive action has failed to act as a deterrent; in fact, it has been found that the more restrictions there are imposed on motorists the less effective they are. The Road Safety Committee acknowledges the need to improve the driving habits of motorists in Victoria if the road toll is to be significantly reduced.

The Bill now before the House provides for points to be registered against drivers for traffic offences. If the driver accumulates 12 points in any 1 year, his licence will be automatically suspended for 1 month. If he accumulates 12 points over a period of 3 years, his driving licence will be suspended for a period of 3 months. It must be remembered that the offending driver will have been punished under the Motor Car Act, the Motor Car Regulations or the Road Traffic Regulations, and that the recording of points against him 'will be an' additional punishment.

The Opposition is of the view that the offences concerned should be spelled out in the schedule to the

Motor Car (Traffic [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Offenders) Bill. 2031'

Bill. The proposed Fifth Schedule, which is contained in clause 3, provides inter alia-

Act or Regulation.

MotorCar Act 1958

Offence or Class of Offence. Points.

Section 80 : Failing to stop and render assistance after accident 3

Section 81 : Careless driving 2

Section 82 : Drunk in charge of a motor car 3

Section 83: Racing or engaging in trial of speed 3

Any other offence against the Motor Car Act 1958 in connexion with the driving of a: motor car ..

If this proposed legislation is to have any effect upon bad or inexperienced drivers, then drivers should know the penalty which is prescribed for a specific offence. This practice has been followed in the legislation of Queensland and New South Wales and in other countries which employ a points demerit system. The points system is not intended to be punitive; it is intended to encourage people to drive more safely and to conform with road traffic laws. Other methods and legislation exist to deal with motorists who are apprehended for specific offences.

Unfortunately, this Bill does not differentiate between the motorist who drives 50,000 miles a year and one who drives only 5,000 miles. I should have thought that the Government would consider this aspect. In all other legislation where the cancellation of a licence is mandatory or at the discretion of a magistrate or court, provision is made for an appeal. This Bill does not provide for any such appeal. Provision is made for only two grounds of appeal; firstly, if the motorist considers that the points have been added incorrectly; and, secondly, if he considers that he has been penalized 2 points instead of 1 point. He cannot appeal against the cancellation of his licence.

If the Government is not prepared to accept my view, the Opposition can do nothing more than point 'Out that this is the first time that a deviation from. the principle of an appeal against the cancellation of a licence has been made. As members of the Road Safety Committee know, a driver has the right of appeal against ·any conviction recorded against him. If he is convicted for exceeding the speed limit he can appeal against the decision of the court. I do not suggest that a motorist should be permitted to appeal against the points awarded, but I believe the Government should differentiate between a person who drives 50,000 miles a year and a weekend driver, who may use his car for only a few thousand ·miles and is not subject to the same trials and tribulations of the road traffic regulations as the constant driver.

Mr. MANSoN.-That is peculiar reasoning.

Mr. WILKES.-That may be so, but it appears that some injustice will be done. I do not suggest how the Government can overcome this injustice. This is one of the contentious issues of the points demerit system which no other State has been able to overcome.

Mr. JONA.-Surely the person who drives 50,000 miles a year has a greater responsibility to be more careful on the roads.

Mr. WILKES.-Every person who is privileged to hold a driver's licence should be a responsible person. The responsibility should be equal. If the Government wishes to use this measure punitively, it should go beyond the ambit of recording points and return to the first essential of road safety, the improvement of driving.

I have suggested before that the Government has failed to correct an anomaly that exists in the present legislation. A new driver, whether young or old, is issued with a probationary licence because he is inexperienced. During his first twelve

2038 Motor Car (Traffic [ASSEMBLY.] Offenders) Bill.

months as a driver he must observe a 50 ,mile-an-hour speed -limit. Some drivers become proficient in twelve months, but many do not. The Government should consider placing a 50 mile-an-hour restriction on a probationary driver for the full period of his probation. If that were done, it might not be necessary to impose some of the m·ore punitive restrictions that have to be contemplated in an attempt to reduce the road toll. Nothing could be more tragic than the shocking loss of life that occurred last week-end. Drivers showed a 'complete lack of appreciation of the dangers that exist on the highways. In many cases, they drove in a manner that was dangerous not only to themselves, but also to other road users.

One has only to travel on the Geelong-road each week-end to observ'e inexperienced drivers travelling ~at speeds in e~cess of 60 or 70 miles 'an hour; they pass other cars as though they were driving aeroplanes. It is of no use imposing a points demeflit system unless this state of affairs is corrected first. I further suggest that the Government should seriously consider imposing an absolute speed limit over the holiday period. I know that this suggestion will 'meet opposition fr-om the motor tr.ade 'and other vested interests and that, ·as the ,result of this influence in the past, the Government has been reluctant 'to proclaim a trial period for the operation of an absolute speed limit.

In Victoria it is lawful for a person to drive a motor vehicle at speeds of 60, 70 or 80 miles an hour so long as he is able to prove that he was not driving in a dangerous or careless manner. Usually the police do not prosecute such a driver because of the difficulty of proving that he was driving in a dangerous manner. If an absolute speed limit were imposed in Victoria, as is done in other States, it would be a deterrent to persons who drive at high speeds. I do not suggest what the absolute speed limit should be. In determining this matter, advice should be obtained from the experts.

Mr. Wilkes.

An examination of the system in other States leads one to believe that an absolute speed limit of 65 miles an hour could be imposed. The Government should be prepared to impose a speed limit by regulation over the Christmas period when a greater volume of traffic on the road can be expected.

The Road Safety Committee examined this proposal thoroughly, particularly as it applies in other States. In Queensland, the Police Depart'ment used the points deme,rit system under regulation for some Hme. Provision has existed in Victo'flian -leg.islation If.or the past three years ~or the operation of this syste'm. FOor ,example, ,the IMotor Car Alct 1967 pr-ovided for the -

Cancellation of a motor driver's licence where the offender had been convicted of more than three offences in the past three years.

vherefore, the Chief Oom'missioner of Police has the power to cancel a licence if the offender has been convicted ofmolfe than 3 offences -in the past 3 years. lIn referring to legislation 'which was introduced during the year, the Chief Commissioner of PoHce mentioned this ·matter at page 15 of his report .for that year. The Chief Com·missioner also has power to cancel licences for other offences. There is a right .of appeal against decisions to take such action. In addition, the Chief Com,missioner possesses powers under the Crimes Act, the IMotor Car Act and the Road Traffiic Regulations.

This Bill is designed to impose a points demerit system on bad drivers, and the Opposition hopes it will do something to improve the driving habits of those who continually offend in this way. At the sa'me time, it should not militate against the driver who, through cir.cumstances outside his control, commits a minor offence against the Road Traffi·c Regulations or the Motor Car kct. The Com'mittee recommended that the system should operate only for moving traffic offences, but there appear to be some areas of conflict in this sphere.

Motor Car (Traffi.c' [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Offenders) Bill. 203~

If a vehicle is illegally parked on a dearway, a municipal traffic officer places a parking infringement notice upon it. However, if the same vehicle is noticed by a traffic policeman, that officer may decide to proceed against the motorist for an offence under the Motor Car A:ct rather than ,for a parking ,infringement. If this occurs, two separate charges ,can be laid for the one offence, only one of which will carry demerit points. The Government should clear up this matter.

:Mr. MANSON .-Pa~king offences are not mentioned in the Bill.

Mr. WILKES.-I agree, but if a traffic policeman decides to charge a motorist who illegally parks a vehicle on a clearwaywi th obstructing traffic, the points demerit system will apply because it is Iclearly an offence under the Road Traffic Regulations. 'Motorists should know exactly to which offences the system will apply. At the appropriate stage, I propose to suggest the insertion of a schedule, which will stipulate the offences to which the points demerit system shall apply, so that a motorist, inexperienced or otherwise, ,will know exactly what offences are involved in the system. In the long term, this 'will be ,more acceptable to motorists because they ·will know where they will stand and a differential will not exist between the motorist who travels many miles a week and the one whO' travels only a few ·miles ·weekly . Under the Bill as drafted, a ·motorist will have to refer to the Motor Car Act, the Crimes Act and .the Road Traffic Regulations to as'certain why points have been recorded against him.

While it ,may not be practical to allow the courts to vary the period of suspension of a licence-this has been done in other States--provided that the rights of appeal are preserved for each individual offence, the problems associated with the difference between motorists who do a high 'mileage and those who do a low mileage will be minimized if the O'ffences are spelt out in the schedule.

The ,Motor Car Act, the Crimes Act and the Road Traffic Regulations have been amended from year to year in an effort to prevent people from killing themselves and others on the road. In spite of such ·measures, the rO'ad toll is still mounting. Despite all attempts by Parlia'ment and the Government to prevent these occurrences and to dissuade motorists fro,m killing themselves, the situation has not improved. There is a limit to' the type of punitive legislation that ·may be introduced, but if the Government a'ccepts the Opposition's suggestion, this Bil1 may deter the inexperienced driver. If he is foolish enough not to be deterred, there will be no alternative but to relieve him of his licence for the period specified in the Act.

On a number of occasions, I have suggested that it is a privilege to hold a driver's licence, but unfortunately many people do not seem to agree. U motorists regarded it as a privilege, they might behave better when they drove motor vehicles on the road. Like the Government, the Opposition is ·concerned about the driving standards of inexperienced people and therefore it does not oppose the introduction of the points demerit system, provided that the Government is prepared to accept a schedule ,which stipulates the offences for which points will be re/corded against the ·motorist. I am certain that ·motorists 'will be aware of the seriousnesS' of losing their licences and will behave better. iJ: hope the Bill will instil in the irresponsible ,motorist the knowledge that, if he is not prepared to' obey the road laws, after a certain number of points have been recorded against him he will no longer have the privilege of driving a ·motor vehicle on the road. Apart from the matters to which I have referred the Opposition raises no objection to the Bill.

Mr. BUCKLEY (Lowan).-The Country Party suppor-ts the Bill which is to amend the IMotor Ca; ~ct 1958 to make provision for the suspension of motor car driving licences held by frequent traffic


offenders. The Bill also seeks to establish a points demerit system, which is based upon recom,mendations of the Road Safety Com'mittee. This system is advocated by many people as a step in the implementation of a driver improvement programme. Various types of points systems are in operation throughout Australia, most of which the Road Safety Committee has had an opportunity to examine. During its deliberations, the Committee found that the most successful system was operating in Queensland.

The points system adopted by the Government and incorporated in the Bill is a statutory one, which is designed to prevent the discretionary allocation of points to offending drivers. At page 6, paragraph 3.0.3., of its second progress report, the Road Safety Committee stated-

Traffic authorities in Queensland claim that the points demerit system has been successful in Queensland.

The following statistics have been supplied to support this contention-

(a) Road fatalities-all States-for first 10 months of 1967 and 1968-

New South Wales up 5.9 per cent. Victoria .. .. .. up 3.9 per cent. South Australia . up 9.5 per cent. Western Australia up 32.7 per cent. Tasmania .. up 35.5 per cent. Queensland .. down 10.2 per cent.

I direct attention to the Queensland figure. These statistics indicate that the points demerit system is to be commended, because the figures I have quoted are absolute and correct. The Bill gives effect to an earnest desire to make our roads safe for all road users. Each week-end there are press reports of the carnage on the roads, particularly the loss of lives of young people whom this country can ill afford to lose. Legislation of this nature will please many people and organizations which have been asking what the Government proposed to do about the problem of road accidents. It ,is a step in the right direction because it is directed

Mr. Buckley.

only at persistent offenders who appear before the courts. It is the duty of honorable members to support the introduction of the points demerit system so that the licences of persistent offending drivers wiU 'autom'atic·any be Icancelled. When 'a motorist reaches the stage when he is likely to lose his licence under the points system this will be a severe deterrent from continuing to drive without due care.

In his second-reading speech, the Minister stated-The basic purpose of the road traffic code to b~ found in the Motor Car Act and regulations and the Road Traffic Regulations 1966 is to establish a definite pattern of safe practice in the driving of a motor vehicle. A violation of any one of these provisions may lead to a hazardous situation.

The essential quality in a driver is that he should be disciplined in his road behaviour, and this means obedience to the road traffic code.

The Minister makes it clear that the Government is seeking obedience to the road traffic code. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. JONA (Hawthorn).-This is the second Bill introduced by the Government within a week or two implementing recommendations of the Road Safety Committee. As indicated by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, the points demerit system is designed to eliminate from the road, by the denial of the privilege to drive, the driver who persistently offends against the road law~ There is an area for discus'sion as to what laws should be brought within the ambit of the Bill. It is important to note that as it stands, and having regard also to the amendm'ents foreshadowed by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, the Bill applies points to driving offences only. The Bill is not designed as an aid to law enforcement, or as a punitive measure. If correctly applied, it will not operate in that way, and it is important that this should be so.

The Bill is des,igned primarily and exclusively as a road safety precaution, and motorists will have due

Motor Car (Traffic [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Offenders) Bill. 2041

notice before they are penalized. Because ~~ the nature of the penalty, the prOVl:SIOnS of the Bill will be applied after a series of events extending over :~ period from 1 to 3 years, so that. It ,can hardly be regarded as an al:d to law enf~c,ement. The purpose of the 'measure is to remove from the roads the pers,istent tJI"affic offender who, ;iJf he were to continue offe~d~ng, would - acoording to the statIstIcs - become involved in a serious accident sooner or later. As the Minister has indicated such a driver might simply cause ay{ accident and then drive on his merry way without being involved himself.

It is true that, under the provisions of the Bill, only motorists who are apprehended will incur the penalties provided. This is unfortunate but it is a situation which applies in ~espect of every law. The important point is that there are many more motor car offences per head of po pula tion than there are offences in other fields, and consequently many offenders are not apprehended. This matter is beyond the control of the Government and, even if the number of law enforcement officers on the roads was substantially increased, a large number of drivers would always avoid conviction for an offence and consequently avoid having points debited against them.

The significant point about the proposed demerit system, which perhaps distinguishes it from similar systems operating elsewhere, is that in every respect it is a statutory system. This is desirable so that Parliament, the public, and particularly the motorist are a,ware of what will h~ppen un~er the. provisions clearly laId down In the BIll. In fact, there is little le.f.t to be laid down by way of regulatIons. There are no discretionary powers whatever in relation to the allocation of points. This distinguishes the scheme from that operating in Queensland, which f?r a num~er o.f years has proVIded for dIscretIOnary application. A similar situation has applied in New Zealand. Therefore, the motorist knows well in advance how many

poin~s will be debited to him for a partIcular offence which is listed in the schedule to the Bill.

It is also significant to note, having regard to the comment of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition concerning the areas of appeal, that the Bill does not contain dis,cretionary power for the court to vary the period of suspension. If Parliament were to adopt the suggestion of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, this would provide the only instance in the Bill where there was a discretionary pDwer vested fn the court, the Chief CD!DmissiDner or any other authority. ThIS wDuld cut right acrDSS the basic principle of the Bill.

So far as appeals are concerned there is adequate provision for a motorist to have his grievance heard if he believes and is able to show the court that there has been an error in calculation or wrDngful or mistaken identity. It is equally impDrtant nDt to overlook the provision for appeal where a motorist believes points have been recDrded against him in error. This affDrds the motorist the oppDrtunity of appealing to the CDurt on the ground that any offence for which pDints were debited to him was in fact not a driving ,offence under the Act. In other wDrds, if a motDrist were convicted fDr the type of offence to' which the Deputy Leader of the OppDsition referred-cDnnected with a parked vehicle on a freeway-and the central registry office administering this scheme debited the motorist with, say, a pDint fDr that particular offence, the motDrist who subsequently ran up his 12 pDints within 3 years cDuld ask the Chief CommissiDner for a list of the offences which cumulatively accounted for his 12 pDints. If he found that he was debited 1 point for the freeway offence this would be ground for an appeal t~ a Magistrates Court because it was an Dffence which did nDt involve the driving of a mDtor vehicle.

Theref.Dre the motorist is afforded ample opPDrtunity in the grDunds of appeal as laid out in the Bill. If the


Government were to 'accept the Opposition's suggestion to give the Magistrates Court power, on appeals, to vary the period of suspension, it would bring in a discretionary aspect· which would cut right across the basic concept of the whole measure. One could never be sure how the legislation would be applied. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition suggested that discretion might well be applied by a Magistrates Court in an appeal by a motorist, such as a commercial traveller or taxi driver, who depended upon the use of a motor vehicle for his livelihood. The community expects a greater degree of responsibility to be displayed by persons who use motor vehicles for the greater portion of the day so that they will take due and proper care associated with their particular type of employment, as each one of us has to do in varying degrees in our own employment. There are people in the community who handle explosives daily; if they are negligent in the handling of explosives, they do not get any more lenient treatment by the court than a person who handles explosives only once or twice a year. There must be a law for the whole community; each member of the community must be subjected to the same dispensation of justice in the administration of the law.

As the honorable member for Lowan indicated, it is interesting that the first points demerit system in Australia was introduced in Queensland as long ago as December, 1967. Although it is difficult to measure the success of the points demerit system in that State in the same way as it is difficult to measure the success or lack of success of any new measure which is designed to increase road safety, because there are so many other factors involved, nevertheless it is interesting to refer to the figures which the honorable member for Lowan quoted. I do not intend to repeat them in full, but they indicate that in the first ten months of 1968 compared with the corresponding period in 1967, Queensland was the

Mr. Jona. I ,

only State which had a reduction in the number of road fatalities. In the same period, other States showed an increase of from 3.9 per cent. in Victoria to 35.5 per cent. in Tasmania, whereas in Queensland there was a reduction of 10.2 per cent. It is also significant that, lin the same period, the number of ,moving traffic violations-this is even more significant than the road fatalities-was reduced from 12,663 in 1967 to 10,456 in 1968, a decrease of 17.5 per cent. I understand that in New South Wales, where the scheme was introduced on the 1st March, 1969, a similar pattern is being revealed. The details of the points demerit system as set out in the Bill are probably the most soundly based and most effective-certainly the fairest-of any of the points demerit systems which have been investigated by the Road Safety Committee.

Mr. DUNsTAN.-Would you agree with a bonus for persons who have fewer than ten offences?

Mr. JONA.-The honorable member suggests that people should get a· bonus for being good citizens. This is expected of every member of the community. The honorable member for Dromana would be well aware of this fact because he knows he gets no bonus for being one of the best members of Parliament.

I contend that the points demerit system as set out in the Bill has these advantages: Firstly, it is statutory; it is clearly defined, and is based on a detailed study of all other systems. Secondly, it sets out with certainty the offences which incur penalty points and the number of points which are to be recorded. I have some reservation with respect to this provision because the Deputy Leader of the Opposition raised the question of specifying each offence in the proposed Fifth ISchedule and indicating the number of points which should be recorded against it. This is not a bad suggestion, and· in fact it was a suggestion of the Road Safety Committee. One could argue


for a long time as to which offences should ibe included and how many points should apply, ibut the principle is sound and is one which I suggest to the .Minister the Government might consider dur.ing the passage of this measure through Parliament.

Thirdly, the Bill makes adequate provision for appeal to the Magistrates Court before any suspension can be applied. I believe there is no weakening in this regard in the application of the principles of British justice which we are all so anxious to maintain in legislation. Finally, there is nothing in the Bill which conflicts or interferes with any existing statutory or discretionary powers of the court or the Chief Commissioner of Police under the various provisions of the Motor Car Act. This arrangement will be superimposed on the whole scheme of traffic control rather than affect any existing provisions.

In his second-reading speech, the Chief Secretary referred to the intention of the Chief Commissioner of Police to dispatch warnings to offending motorists when they have acquired half the number of points which will result in suspension of their licences. That is to say, when a motorist has accumulated approximately six points, he will receive, either by registered post or in person, a reminder which may ,lead to his rectifying his bad driving habits before the expiration of three years from the time of the first offence which attracted points against him. Whilst it is not incorporated in the Bill, and perhaps there is no reason why it should be, the Government's intention regarding this important safeguard for drivers is worth mentioning.

The general public and the newspapers are always clamouring for the Parliament to introduce measures that will result in a drastic reduction in the road toll. It is not possible to bring about a drastic reduction in anything without taking drastic steps. This Bill is not a drastic step, and a

drastic reduction in the' road toll cannot be expected to result from it. It is all very ·well for the newspapers and ·well-informed ·members olii the com·munity to call on the Govern·ment to take these steps but a Govern·ment is elected by, is responsiible to, and depends on the support of the people. It has the responsibility of adopting measures to reduce the number of road accidents but they must be measures which the community is prepared to tolerate. Any Government could effect a reduction of 90 per cent. to 95 per cent. of the number of accidents within three months by introducing measures to reduce the maJrimum speed to 5 miles per hour and to provide a mandatory sentence of not less than six months for anyone who exceeded it. It is a question of how heavy a road toll the community will tolerate. Such provisions would illustrate an absence of balance between what the community wants done to reduce the road toll and legislation that it will tolerate to achieve that end.

The Bill will be supported by motorists, motoring organizations, and all honorable members of this House who want to see a reduction in the road toll. I congratulate the Government for implementing recommendations made by the Road Safety Committee after detailed investigations of the whole subject.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine).I support the amendment foreiihadowed by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. I share the views of all' honorable ,members that something ·must be done to reduce the road toll, and I pay a tribute to the Road Safety Committee for the very fine contribution it has made to the literature on the subject. As!I hold those views, what [ say will be largely non-poliUcal. A ,measure of this type is ·mainly experimental and, in determining our attitudes toward it, we should approach the subject with great caution.

The Bill is tantamount to a further codification of the law. The proposals implicit in the Fifth Schedule, and in


the Bill itself, take away some of the discretion previously enjoyed by the courts and replaces it with mandatory measuring rods stipulated by Parlialllent. In the absence of rights of appeal, in some cases these are capable of imposing great individual hardships. On a subject as difficult as road safety, no legislation can be perfect, and in a few years' time some attempt to review the provisions of this Bill will be necessary. Somewhat similar legislation has already been enacted. I refer to owner-onus, which was not opposed by the Opposition because it was anxious to assist the Government to increase road safety.

Mr. B. J. EVANs.----Owner-onus applies only to parking offences.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I should have referred to what are commonly known as "on-the-spot" fines. I make this statement as an expression of personal opinion. Tha t legislation has been treated in some quarters as a revenue earner rather than as a deterrent to motoring offenders. Representations have been made on this subject by some of the more responsible police spokesmen, including Inspector Crowley, secretary of the Victoria Police Association.

To a great extent, the legislation has proved futile. It has antagonized a large, well-behaved and, g~nerally speaking, responsible section of the public without effectively deterring or penalizing those at whom the measure was originally aimed. Undoubtedly it has had a deterrent effect on many people, but this has been brought about at the expense of much public goodwill for the Police Force and the ere a tion of many difficulties for those charged with administering the provisions. In relating that history of the " on-the-spot" legislation, I am not relying only on my own observation because in recent months the police have drawn these matters to the attention of the public.

This Bill endeavours t6 create a further deterrent to potential motoring offenders by introducing a points system which I suggest, in the absence

of an argument to the contrary, would appear to act unfairly against that section of the responsible motoring public which covers a great mileage each year, in comparison with that which covers a relatively small mileage. Possibly, the comparison is not quite as simple as that but, generally speaking, those who cover greater mileages are more experienced and have more road sense, and therefore drive better than those who cover only small distances each year, and who have less experience and consequently less road sense. I am not speaking about the drivers of commercial vehicles but of those who use cars in the ordinary course of their business, as do members of Parliament, travelling salesmen, and people engaged in a multiplicity of commercial activities.

A person who drives 12,000 to 16,000 miles a year-I have covered nearly 16,000 miles to date this year ---is more exposed to the risk of committing traffic breaches, sometimes involuntarily, than the person who takes his car out only at a week-end and drives in a queue to the Dandenongs or to some other place near Melbourne to enjoy a change of scene.

To attempt to codify the law is a risky experiment at any time, and this Bill needs the incorporation of the amendment foreshadowed by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, for one reason above all. It is not legislation which can, by its nature, deal with the important priorities first.

Mr. MANsoN.-This was a matter for the Com·mittee.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.---JI am not criticizoing the Commi.ttee; it did a good job and :is not responsible f.or the order of precedence the Government gives to its recom·m'endations. The Chief Secretary is now considering this matter. On 26th October, Judge Rapke pointed out that the motor car has become an 'instrument of crime such as pack rape and robbery and that many of the people who are com.mHting this kind of crime


are n'Ot being deprived of their driving licences. They can org'anize a robbery or an assault, sho'Ot or batter s'Omeone or defile young 'women with impunity and even if they are caught, after paying the penaUy for their cri,mes they retain their licences to drive motorcars, and this enables them to d'O the same thing again if they have the mind to do so. In my view legislation with -more farreaching i,mplications is required to deal with the cri,mina,l use of motor cars and other vehicles.

I shall refetto a case oof which I have personal experience rel'ating to the Fifth Schedule in the Hill. I know that under this Bill if a person is convicted of being drunk in oharge of a motor car he has 3 points added to his score, but under entire,ly different legislation that person can be deprived 'Of his driving licence or have it suspended if the court so desires.

Mr. J'ONA.-That can be done for a number 'Of offences under the Motor Car Act.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-That is so, but t'O the layman Hke 'myself, and perhaps with greater force to the outsider -whQ reads our deliberations, the fact that a demerit of 3 points is allocated for the offence of being drunk in ,charge 'Of a ·motor car and 3 points for failing to keep to the left oof double lines seems to be 'Out of proportion having regard to what Coould be the enormity, real or imagined, of the two offences.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. J. D. MacDonald).-Order! I suggest that the honorahle ;me;mber should confine his remarks to the general principles of the Bill. At present he is discussing matters which ,could better be dealt with in Committee.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I shall do that. One of the biggest factors in the cr.eation oof traffic hazards in Victoria, and particularly in the metroopolitan area, is not the ·control over the ordinary passenger ·car driver but the lack of control 'Over the drivers of com'mercial vehioles. I shaH give an exa-mple of this lack of control over

commercial traffic, the speed limits for which are radically different from those applying to ordinary passenger vehicles. The beach road in the vicinity of Mordialloc was never intended to carry heavy traffic of any description but it has become a race track for heavy commercial traffic of all kinds.

Mr. WILKES.-There was a classic example yesterday when a person was kiUed.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I do not know the detaHs of that 'case, but it is becom'ing increasingly limpossible to travel safely along the beach road because of the density of !commercial traffic which, in many cases, travels at speeds f'ar in excess of the limits determined for vehicles 'Of this type. The ·manager of the Royal Automobile Club of Victoria wrote an article on this subject in the Royal Auto recently. He postulated the case of what happens if the driver 'Of a 'car finds one of these big 'commercial vehicles breathing down his neck, SQ to speak, for a number of mHes on a road si,milar to the beach road. The driver of the car naturally trie'S to get out of the way and in soo doing may do aU sorts of things in an emergency which 'may place him on the WTong side of the provisioons of this Bill.

I now refer to the lack of control over the p'Ollution 'Of roads by commercial traffic in Victoria.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member is getting wide of the BiB in dealing with pollution ,caused by traffic.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Before you resumed the Chair, Mr. Speaker, I was dealing, with some precision, with the Fifth Schedule contained in clause 3 of the Bill and your predecessor advised me to deal with the principles of the Bill which relate to road safety. If you will permit me, it is for that reason I want to deal with pollution.

The SPEAKER.-Order! I ~ule that a debate on poHution is not relevant to the Bin, which relates to traffic offences.


Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Mr. Speaker, will you permit me to show y,?u how pol:lution is relevant to the BIll?

'f;he SPEAKER.-I shall listen to the honorable 'member on the subject of road pollution only as it is relevant to traffic offences.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I 'want to show that road pollution causes a traffi·c haz'ard and thereby caus·es many motor 'car drivers -to break the law. Will you perm.it 'me to do that, Mr. Speaker?

TheSPEAKER.-I said that I would listen to the honorable 'member.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-L,ast year I went to Sydney by w'ay of the Hume Highway and travelled at app~oxi'mately 40 mHes an hour. ,T went to Albury the first night.

lihe SPEAKER.-I invite the honorable :member to discuss the ,matters in the BiB.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-That is exactly what;J ·alm doing. The stretch of 'road between Holbrook .and Gundagai is notorious, as 'anybody familiar with traffic in New South Wales knows. In that State police travel on the highways in mtini cars. They do not wear hel'metsand they travel at 'about 60 or 70 miles an hour. They pass a car, and the driver wonders how they can get away with travelling at such speed. It is only when they are seen farther up the road that it is realized they 'are poJkemen. If the driver of a 'motor car gets behind a big commercial vehicle on a hHl 'with double lines ,marked on the ~oadway, he and the passengers in his car are suffocated by the ·cloud .of diesel gas whkh biHows from the com'mercial vehicle. The 'Occupants of other cars which bank up behind thecom,mercial vehicle are in the same positi.ion.

Gene~ally the driver of the first car tries to get !around the commercia.! vehicle to avoid the pollution and invariably, if there is no traffic in Slight, the driver of the ·co-m'mercial vehicle will put his hand out and wave the other dr.iver 'a~ound. This ;gesture of courtesy is extended to the drivers of cars on all the principal highw'ays

of Australia and it w·as extended to me last Christmas. 'When I accepted the invitation without danger tD myself Dr anyone else I was confronted a few miles farther on by a young gentleman in am,ini car who jumped out of his vehkle, took his hel'met from the bottom of the oar, put it on his head and told me that I had broken the law. This appUes not only in New South Wales but also in Victoria. The joke about this is that farther up the road beyond Gundagai I saw the d~iver of a poUce ,car do e~act1y the same thing as I did, the only difference being that he used the revolving blue light on his car before he went around the ,com·mercial vehicle to avoid the pollution. However, he broke the law.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Chrisde).-Order! II invite the ihonorable member to debate the subject of the Bill.

'Mr. LOVEGROVE.-The proposed Fifth Schedule provides that in that situation-failing to keep to the left of the double lines when passing another motorist-the driver shall receive a demerit or three points; he receives the same demerit as a driver who is drunk in char.ge of a motor car.

From my study of the schedule, I believe it is not sufficient merely to provide penalties for offences committed by ordinary drivers; steps should be taken to protect them from some of the excesses of 'commercial traffic which are largely responsible for causing them to break the law or to risk their safety. The incident I have described is rather unimportant, I suppose, and is one which has been encountered by thousands of drivers on innumerable occasions. 'I have referred to it because in my opinion the situation is worsening and it is high time something was done particularly in relation to the excessive speeds of 'commercial traffic. Greater control ,must be exercised.

The Opposition is of the view that the imposition of the penalties provided in this Bill should not be too


rigid. The measure should permit the use of discretion, and should not demand strict adherence to the schedule.

Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Shepparton) .-1 join with other honorable members who have contributed to this debate in their support of the general principles of the points demerit system. I point out, however, that when a ,measure such as this is being considered it is important to keep in mind the basic rights of individuals. A basic weakness of this Bill is that it empowers the Chief Commissioner of Police to suspend a driver's licence, and I believe this is a matter which should be closely examined by the Minister in charge of this legislation.

.on my interpretation of this Bill the first action to take place will be that a person will receive a notice suspending his Hcence. An organization as large as the Motor Registration Branch must make mistakes; in fact, the efficiency of the Branch has not been highly regarded in the past. Mistakes will !be made, and an innocent person will be served . with a notice ,which suspends his licence. It is all very well to say that he can appeal, but he must give 14 days' notice of the appeal to the Chief Commissioner, and the result is that his licence will be suspended for a minimum period of 3 weeks prior to his appeal being heard. This is an intolerable state of affairs and a demonstration of bureaucracy at its worse.

I suggest that if according to the records of the Motor Registration Branch a person has accumulated 12 demerit points, he should be given a notice setting out particulars of the offences for which the points were awarded and be allowed 14 days in which to appeal; in the meantime, he should retain his licence. If he does not attend court on the day of the hearing, his licence should be suspended 'from that date; if he a ttends the court, the case will be decided.

Mr. WILKEs.-On what grounds?

Mr. ROSS - EDWARDS. - The grounds of appeal provided in this measure are, firstly, that demerit points have been recorded against a person in error or because of wrongful or mistaken identity; or, secondly, tha t a miscakula tion has been made in the assessment of the total number of demerit points recorded against him. I think the Bill 'contains a serious flaw, in that an innocent person ,may automatically lose his licence before he has had the opportunity of having his case heard in a court.

The 'motion was agreed to.

The Bill was read a second time and committed.

Clause 1 was agreed to . Clause 2, providing, inter aliaAfter section 27 of the principal Act there

shall be inserted the following sections :-

27G. (1) Where the Chief Commissioner suspends the licence or licences of any person pursuant to the provisions of section 27B the holder thereof may appeal against the suspension to a magistrates' court on one or more of the following grounds, namely:-

(a) that demerit points have been recorded against him in error or because of wrongful or mistaken identity; or

(b) that a miscalculation has been made in the assessment of the total number of demerit points recorded against him.

Mr. WILKES (Northoote).-1 move-

That, in paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) of proposed new section 27G, the words cc against him" be omitted with the view of inserting the expression "against him; or (c) that the suspension is unduly severe in the circumstances of the particular case."

The proposed legislation provides that there may !be an appeal on two grounds. As the honorable member for Hawthorn has said, the first indication that a driver will receive that his licence might be suspended or cancelled is a letter from the Chief Commissioner of police after he has aocumulated 8 or 9 demerit points in which he will be informed that if further demerit points are sustained


his licence will be automatically suspended unless he 'can show 'cause why it should not be. If that is the position, this measure contains an in-huilt protection. The honorable member for Shepparton suggested that a driver who received a notice to show cause why his licence should not /be suspended should be given a period of fourteen days in which to lodge an appeal, and [ believe that such a provision should be ;written into the Bill. It has been suggested that a driver should have the right to appeal against the severity of the suspension of his licence for having committed a particular offence, but, as the honorable ,member for Hawthorn has pointed out, the Government 'will not accept such an amendment since the driver will already have had an opportunity to appeal in relation to each individual 'conviction.

The honorable member for Sunshine pointed out that this proposed legislation is purely experimental and that it could become necessary to distinguish between drivers who travel very high mileages and those who do not. It is acknowledged that a commercial driver does travel high mileages and that in many instances, as a result of his vast experience on the roads, he is an expert. He has to have a special

licence to permit him to drive partkular vehicles, and he must undergo additional tests to obtain it. Having regard to his expertise, experience and the length of time he spends on the road, he ,could be detected committing minor offences, whilst the ordinary driver who. is not frequently on the road might never be apprehended.

An inherent weakness of the provisions of this measure, as the chairman of the Road Safety Committee acknowledges, is that all bad drivers will not be apprehended. Having regard to. the small number of police who control the roads in Victoria, it is unlikely that a motorist will be apprehended unless he repeatedly makes the same 'mistake in an area which is saturated by police patrols. The Opposition holds the view that provision ought to be made for an appeal against the severity of a licence suspension and that the matter should be decided in the light of the seriousness 'of the offences com~ mitted.

The amendment was negatived, and the clause was agreed to.

Clause 3-After the Fourth Schedule to the principal

Act there shall be inserted the following schedule :-

FIFTH SCHEDULE.

Act or Regulation.

Inflammable Liquids Regulations 1968

Motor Car Act 1958

Motor Car Regulations 1966

Mr. Wilkes.

Offence or Class of Offence.

Driver of vehicle transporting more than 540 gallons of inflammable liquid failing to stop at a railway crossing

Section 80: Failing to stop and render assistance after accident . . . .

Section 81: Careless driving .. ' . . . . Section 82: Drunk in charge of a motor car .. Section 83 : Racing or engaging in trial of speed .. Any other offence against the Motor Car Act 1958

in connexion with the driving of a motor car ..

Regulation 140: Driving motor vehicle not road-worthy .. .. .. .. ..

Any other offences against the Motor Car Regulations 1966 in connexion with the driving of a motor car ..

Points.

4

3 2 3 3

2


Act or Regulation. Offence or Class of Offence. Points.

Road Traffic Regulations 1962 .. Regulation 401 : Disobeying traffic control signals 2 Regulation 402: Disobeying traffic signs . . 2 Regulation 502, sub-regulations (2) and (5):

Overtaking unsafely . . . . 3 Regulation 504: Incorrectly passing vehicle

proceeding in opposite direction . . 3 Regulation 506: Moving laterally from lane or line

of traffic when unsafe to do so . . . . 3 Regulation 508: Failing to keep left of double

lines . . . . . . . . . . 3 Regulation 602: Failing to give way at inter-

sections . . . . . . 2 Regulations 701, 705: Failing to give way at

pedestrian or school crossings . . . . 3 Regulation 803: Failing to give tum or stop signals 2 Regulation 901 : Failing to stop at railway crossing 3 Regulation 901A: Commercial passenger vehicle

failing to stop at a railway crossing .. 4 Regulation 1001 : Exceeding speed limit.. 2 Regulation 1402: Passing stationary tramcar .. 2 Any other offence against the Road Traffic Regula-

tions 1962 in connexion with the driving of a motor car .. 1 ..

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-During the second-reading debate, it was pointed out that the Road Safety Committee had recommended that the proposed Fifth Schedule should stipulate the particular offences to which the points demerit system shall apply. Although honorable members should not over-consider the bad driver or persistent offender, they should consider the driver who incurs the displeasure of the police perhaps only once or twice during the whole of his driving career. The legislation should not militate against a driver who attempts to obey the law. Therefore, the Opposition feels that it would be beneficial to spell out the infringements which carry demerit points. Accordingly, I move-

That, for the Fifth Schedule, there shall be substituted :the following schedule:-

FIFTH SCHEDULE

Offence. Points.

Driver of vehicle transporting more than 540 gallons of inflammable liquid failing to stop at a railway crossing . . 4

Offence. Points

Failing to stop at a pedestrian crossing or a school crossing 3

Exceeding a speed limit by more than 15 miles per hour 3

Failing to stop on red traffic signals .. 3 Overtaking or passing on bridge contrary

to regulations . . . . . . 2 Not keeping left of vehicle travelling in

opposite direction. . 2 Driving an unroadworthy vehicle 2 Exceeding a speed limit by between 10

and 15 miles per hour . . . . 2 Failing to pass through intersection at

such speed as to be able to stop to avoid collison 2

Careless driving . . . . . . 1 Overtaking or passing contrary to regu-

lations . . 1 Failing to observe stop sign. . . . 1 Failing to pass to the left of vehicle about

to tum right in accordance with the regulations . . . . . . 1

Failing to give way to pedestrians or vehicles when entering or leaving a highway.. .. 1

Failing to have lights on . . 1 Passing stationary tramcar .. 1 Driving to right of safety zone 1 Driving over double lines . . 1 Disobeying a traffic control signal . . 1 Exceeding any speed limit by not more

than 10 miles per hour .. 1 Failing to give signals 1 Disobeying traffic sign . . 1 Failing to have prescribed lights 1

2050 Motor Car (Traffic [ASSEMBLY.] Offen-ders) Bill.

The virtue of the proposed new schedule was canvassed during the second-reading debate and was commented upon by the honorable member for Hawthorn. If the Government is prepared to accept the proposed schedule, I think it will find that it will operate far more satisfactorily than the schedule contained in the clause.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-1 am impressed with the arguments submitted by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition during the second-reading debate and, generally, the Government agrees with the amendment. However, one problem arises which precludes complete acceptance of the proposed new schedule. This difficulty relates to the offence of exceeding a speed limit by more than 15 miles per hour.

When proceedings are taken by way of summons, the police will allege that the defendant was travelling at more than 60 miles per hour, and the defendant will give evidence that he was travelling at only 35 miles per hour. The magistrate does not convict the defendant for exceeding the speed limit by 15, 10 or 5 miles per hour; he convicts only for exceeding the speed limit. The magistrate may not accept the police evidence or the defendant's evidence in their entirety; he may merely accept that the speed limit was exceeded. It will be necessary to overcome this problem before the Government can accept the schedule. If the Deputy Leader of the Opposition is prepared to discuss this matter, I suggest that progress should be reported to enable the matter to be sorted out.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I appreciate the Chief Secretary's comments, but it may be difficult to reach a compromise because of the three offences which are involved. In many cases, a person who exceeds the speed limit by not more than 10 miles per hour is doing so by 5 or 6 miles per hour when he is booked in the

metropolitan area. Surely that offence is not as serious as exceeding the speed limit by more than 15 miles per hour.

Mr. WHITING.-It depends upon where the offence is committed.

Mr. WILKES.-I agree, but it is not easy to compromise because there is a distinction between a person who drives along a metropolitan highway and suddenly finds that he is travelling at 41 miles per hour within a 35-miles-per-hour zone and another person who travels at 60 miles per hour. The former offence is not so serious as the latter.

It is difficult to find a solution in regard to the more serious offences and still meet the requirements of the Chief Secretary with respect to the positions of the magistrate and the police when offenders are taken to court. The Opposition will be pleased to discuss this matter with the Chief Secretary and with the Country Party, which has shown some interest in the measure.

Mr. MITCHELL.-The Country Party has shown strong interest; do not under-estimate it.

Mr. WILKES.-In fairness to the honorable member for Benambra, I shall say that the Country Party has shown equal interest in the legislation. If a solution can be found to the problem of speeding offences the Opposition will be prepared to a~cept the offer made by the Chief Secretary in the spirit in which it was made.

Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland East) . -I desire to make a plea for an intelligent approach to the question of certain offences, particularly to an offence under Regulation 402 of the Road Traffic Regulations, subregulation (5) of which provides inter alia- '

Where a sign inscribed with the words cc No Overtaking or Passing" is erected to face an approaching driver, the driver shall not-

(a) pass the sign while any vehicle travelling in the opposite direction is between the sign and a similar sign facing in the opposite direction; or


I realize that it is only a minor point, but within 100 yards of my home there are two such signs and it is impossible to see one from the oth~r; therefore, a motorist can quite innocently pass one sign whilst a vehicle is approaching him, not having seen the corresponding sign at the other end.

We should be careful to guard against this sort of situation. Admittedly, nobody has ever been caught committing an offence at the location near my home, but if a motorist were caught and he were within two points of losing his licence, he could feel that it was an injustice. At this location, the signs are at each end of the approaches to a bridge, and the road curves. In conjunction with this legislation, road signs should be carefully examined to ensure that motorists are not penalized because of something over which they have no control.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-1 appreciate the comments of the Deputy Leader of the Country Party. I should like him to raise this matter specifically with me because I am constantly discussing road signs with the Traffic Commission. Many motorists seem to be unable to read signs, anyway, but Parliament cannot solve that problem.

I think the only solution to the problem of the amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition is to provide for 2 points demerit for exceeding the speed limit and delete the references to 3 points for exceeding a speed limit by more than 15 miles per hour and 1 point for exceeding any speed limit by not more than 10 miles per hour.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-The Opposition agrees with the proposition submitted by the Chief Secretary.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-1 move-

That the amendment be amended as follows:-

That the item relating to exceeding a speed limit by more .than 15 miles per hour be omitted.

That, in the item relating to exceeding a speed limit by between 10 and 15 miles per hour, the words "by between 10 and 15 miles per hour" be omitted.

That the item relating to exceeding any speed limit by not more than 10 miles per hour be omitted.

Sir Arthur Rylah's amendment on the amendment was agreed to, and Mr. Wilkes's amendment, as amended, was adopted.

The clause, as amended, was adopted.

The Bill was reported to the House with an amendment.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-1 move-

That this Bill be now read a third time. Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Sheppar

ton) .-1 repeat the comments that I made during the second-reading debate because the Chief Secretary was not present when 1 spoke. There is a basic weakness in the Bill in that a person will automatically lose his licence although a mistake may be made. This can happen in an organization the size of the Motor Registration Branch whose records in the past have not always been the most accurate. A person has to lodge an appeal and give to the Chief Commissioner 14 days' notice, with the result that he is without a licence for 3 weeks regardless of the fact that he is innocent. 1 suggest, with respect, that a person should be notified that according to the records he has accumulated 12 points, and the details should be set out. He should have to show cause within 14 days why his licence should not be suspended. If he lodges an appeal, he should be permitted to keep his licence until the appeal is determined. This is a necessary safeguard, and 1 ask the Chief Secretary and the Government to give this matter serious consideration before the Bill is dealt with in another place.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-1 thank the honorable member for Shepparton for raising this point, which had not occurred to me. I see that the Parliamentary Draftsman who prepared the Bill is in

2052 Racing (Trotting [ASSEMBLY.] Racing) Bill.,

the gallery; I am sure that he has taken note of what the honorable member said. The matter will be examined before the Bill is discussed in the other House.

The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time.

RACING (TROTTING RACING) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from November 18) on the motion of Sir Arthur Rylah (Chief Secretary) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. TREZISE (Gee'long North).The main purpose of the Bill is to authorize an amount of money to be paid into the Racecourses Development Fund for the purpose of assisting trotting racing in a manner similar to that which applies to horse-racing. It is proposed to increase the commission deducted from investments on the off-course totalizator on daily doubles with respect to trotting races from 13 per cent. to 14 per cent. The extra 1 per cent. will be used to form the Fund and assist trotting clubs in maintaining and providing tracks and appropriate facilities for, spectators at the sport of trotting. On last year's figures rela ting to the investments on the off-course totalizator on daily doubles, 1 per cent. would have amounted to $180,000 because the turnover on daily doubles amounted to $18 million. The totalizator investment on daily doubles at trotting meetings is in excess of win and place bets, whereas so far as galloping race meetings are concerned the investments for win and place bets are in excess of investments on the daily doubles.

Members of the Labor Party do not oppose this measure. At the same time, we are not particularly happy about the proposal to take an extra 1 per cent. from the money invested by punters on the off-course totalizator. I hope the administrators of the sport of trotting will watch their future expenditure and will not get into the habit of saying, " We will

spend this amount because we will be able to get additional finance from the Racecourses Development Fund." Such an attitude could lead to a dangerous situation. In many overseas countries, too large a slice is taken from investments on the totalizator system with the result that the sport is suffering. For instance, in India 27 per cent. is deducted-14 per cent. for the Government and 13 per cent. for the racing clubs. The situation in that country is such that racing conditions are deteriorating rapidly because people are being forced to turn to illegal book-makers. The secretary of the Royal Calcutta Turf Club recently pointed out that the excessive drainage of the percentage from the pool in India was a positive example of a State Government backing a law which sponsored a diminishing return.

Fortunately, in Victoria, compared with countries such as Turkey, Japan, New Zealand and America, the percentage deducted from the Totalizator Agency Board pool is not as high at this stage. This is one of the main reasons why Victoria is the leading racing State in Australia, not only in relation to trotting but also in respect of horse-racing and greyhound racing. Victoria leads the other States in every way in the administration, stakes, attendance figures and facilities of these sports. I trust that this measure will not be the forerunner of further proposals which will bring about a deterioration in such conditions that at present exist in the sport of trotting in Victoria.

The main reason for forming the Racecourses Development Fund is to assist comparatively new clubs which have been established in recent years to cater for the boom in the popularity of the sport of trotting. In the past 3 or 4 years, trotting clubs have been established at Shepparton and Mildura ; at Ararat a new course, called the Russell White Racewayin honour of the live-wire chairman of the Trotting Control Board-was opened recently; and the course at

Racing (Trotting [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Racing) Bill. 2053

Ballarat was established about 4 years ago. All of these clubs have been forced to provide modem facilities for the benefit of spectators and punters. Conditions which were tolerated in pre-war years are no longer acceptable, with the result that the clubs have had to borrow money with which to finance improvements. The clubs are in an unhappy situation because they have had to borrow money at 7 per cent. or 8 per cent. interest on the private market. If such finance is made available from the Racecourses Development Fund, interest charges to clubs will be reduced and they will have more money available for the provision of amenities.

As I said earlier, I trust that it will not be proposed in the future that a further .5 per cent or 1 per cent. should be deducted from investments on the off-course totaIiza tor on daily doubles. Indeed, it should be possible, at some stage, to reduce the proposed increase of 1 per cent. under this Bill to .5 per cent., or even eliminate it. In view of the increased turnover on the totalizator, it is possible that at some time in the future the Racecourses Development Fund may be abolished. I think it is inevitable that in 5, 15 or perhaps 50 years, bookmakers will be eliminated from all sports throughout the world. If this occurred, the funds available from the totalizator would be increased. Therefore, I trust that this additional 1 per cent. will be the maximum and not the starting point for further deductions from the totalizator pool.

I spoke to the secretary of the Trotting Control Board this afternoon Mr. Mick Billings, and he supplied m~ with some statistics of the clubs which could require assistance from the Racecourses Development Fund as proposed by this Bill. He pointed out that the Shepparton club-the honorable member for Shepparton would be more conversant with this matter than I am-recently opened a track which cost some $200,000 or $300,000, and I understand that the sum of

$100,000 was borrowed from a bank at about 7 per cent. interest. I may be in error here, but I believe there is no grandstand at this course. This club may be assisted in this regard under this Bill. The Echuca Trotting Club converted last year to night trotting at a cost of $50,000 which was borrowed from private banks. The Ararat club was forced to shift to a new site and has financial obligations totalling some $70,000. The Ballarat club owes in the vicinity of $40,000. The Geelong Trotting Club has been in existence for about twelve years. It is in a difficult situation; its present track is too small, so it either has to extend the track by about 1 furlong or move elsewhere on to freehold land that it owns. It will certainly be faced with grea t expenditure in the near future.

I question, however, the wisdom of establishing so many trotting clubs throughout Victoria. As I said, clubs are providing new tracks and are going to great expense, whereas in regard to galloping races the policy seems to be for clubs to amalgamate and for many courses to be closed down. This occurred at BalIan; the BalIan club has been incorporated with the Ballarat club. I do not know whether the trotting authorities are getting carried away by the establishment of local courses all over Victoria-I trust not-but this is a point that should be examined. The geographical situation should also be considered because in another place last week members of the Labor Party sought to have legislation passed for the establishment of a trotting track at Dandenong. In view of the scarcity of trotting facilities in that locality compared with other parts of Victoria, members of our party considered that the proposal was warranted. Country clubs have to be made aware of the situation that it may be far more convenient to have one track in a centre and use their financial resources to provide one set of facilities.

2054 Racing (Trotting [ASSEMBLY.] Racing) Bill.

Today I asked the Chief Secretary a question on notice relating to the Racecourses Development Fund, the purpose of which is to assist the sport of galloping. I was informed that 32 clubs had been assisted, and I am sure that this trend will continue when this Bill is passed and assistance can be given to trotting clubs. In examining the way in which the money has 'been spent I found that in 'most cases the patrons have not been forgotten. In addition, two trainers have been assisted to move their training establishments from a track which has been closed down to another track which is operating.

I presume that a similar system will be in the forefront of the assistance that is giving when the trotting administrators allocate funds. One trainer, Mr. Kelly, has been allocated $10,600 to re-establish his stables at the Ballarat racecourse. Those people who are interested in horses should inspect Mr. Kelly's stables. They are the most up to date in the southern hemisphere and have an indoor track and many other facilities which are not provided in most other parts of the world. Mr. Kelly would be proud to show members of this Parliament the assistance he has received from the Racecourses Development Fund.

A further purpose of the Bill is to reconstitute the Racecourses Licences Board, particularly in relation to trotting. In the past the Board has consisted of the Under-Secretary, Mr. Dillon, the chairman of the Victoria Racing Club and the chairman of the Trotting Control Board. It is proposed to reconstitute the Board to allow trotting interests to be further represent~d, and in future the composition of the Board will consist of the UnderSecretary, the chairman of the Troting Control Board and a person appointed by the Chief Secretary to represent the interests of trotting clubs.

During the Chief Secretary's second-reading speech, by insinuation the honorable member for Kara Kara

Mr. Trezise.

queried this representation. The honorable member is in much closer contact with trotting than I am and he may have a reason for raising this query. I believe the proposal is a progress.ive step which will permit country trotting interests to have a say in the affairs of the Board. I do not know from which area this representative will be appointed, but I am sure that the Chief Secretary will ensure that he will further the interests of country trotting organizations. During the debate I hope the Chief Secretary, or some other Government spokesman, will infor,m the House of the source from which this person will be appointed.

Another purpose of the Bill is to amend the Racing Act to prevent an embarrassing situation from developing in the future. At present the Under-Secretary of the Chief Secretary's Department is automatically the chairman of the Racecourses Licences Board and the present Under-Secretary, Mr. Dillon, has had a good deal of experience of racing. In the future the chairman of the Racecourses Licences Board wHI be appointed by the Governor in Council and need not necessarily be the Under-Secretary. I have never heard anyone in the racing game query the qualifications of Mr. Dillon, but the position could arise where the Under-Secretary may not be as fully conversant with racing as is Mr. Dillon, and this could cause embarrassment. A provision in the Bill will safeguard this.

Summing up, the sports of galloping and trotting are now backed by the Racecourse Development Fund. The next step will probably be to assist greyhound racing. I am loath to consent to a further slice being taken out of the pool subscribed to by horse-racing punters with the Totalizator Agency Board, and I hope these funds will be used for the benefit of the sport and particularly for the benefit of the patrons. If they are discouraged, the finances of trotting, racing and the Government will


decline. Members of the Labor Party do not oppose the Bill and we trust that the additional 1 per cent. which is to be deducted from the doubles pool will not be the forerunner of a larger slice.

Mr. PHELAN (Kara Kara).-The purpose of the Bill is to amend the Racing Act 1958; it provides for an extension of the principle of the existing Racecourses Development Fund which is administered by a Board. It is also proposed to change the composition of the Board by providing for additional trotting representation.

The honorable member for Geelong North neglected to emphasize that the additional 1 per cent. will be deducted only from the doubles pool. There will be no increase in the amount deducted from other totalizator investments. In my opinion a deduction of an additional 1 per cent. will make little difference to the dividends paid for ·successful doubles; the system of using substitute horses makes a far greater difference in the level of dividends. If there are a number of scratchings and substitutes win both legs of the double, the dividend is usually greatly reduced.

I am sure that doubles investors will be happy about what is proposed, particularly when they consider the benefits which have flowed to galloping races as a result of the establishment of the Racecourses Development Fund. Those who visit country race clubs will realize the real benefits which have been derived not only by the owners and trainers ibut also by the general public. Therefore, it is only logical to make provision for this principle, which has opera ted so successfully in relation to galloping, to be extended to trotting clubs.

The honorable member for Geelong North made particular reference to the establishment of country trotting clubs and suggested that it was undesirable to have too many clubs in the one area. In complete contrast to galloping, trotting is a sport-I classify it as a sport and not as an

industry or business-in which the great majority of those engaged are owner-trainer-drivers. This is in complete contrast with the professionalism which applies in galloping. In fact, galloping is tied to professional development 'with large professional stables.

Because of the class and range of races conducted by various country clubs and because of the system of handicapping that is used, it is ,imperative that the smaller clubs should be assisted to develop in order that they may become the nurseries and the feeding grounds for the larger centres of trotting. With the exception of races for 2-year-olds and 3-year-olds, it is. not possible for an owner to enter a horse at Shepparton unless that horse has won two events. The same conditions apply at Geelong, although at certain meeNngs the Geelong club runs a couple of races which cater for the 28 and 27-class horses. The Ballarat and Bendigo clubs do not race under a 26-class, which means that the horses must have won at least two races in open class. Therefore, it is essential that courses should be developed in country areas so that horses may be trained and qualified for the other clubs.

Unlike most country racecourses, country trotting courses are composite grounds. This does not apply at Bendigo, Ballarat and Geelong but it does at Charlton, Wedderburn, St. Arnaud and other courses where the trotting track is constructed outside the general sports area. For this reason it is necessary to provide amenities, whether or not trotting is conducted there. In my opinion the centralization of these facilities would not affect the over-all economic operation of trotting. In fact, !if it did not apply some private owners of trotters would have difficulty in utilizing the facilities available at courses effectively and the trotting clubs would have difficulty in maintaining the amenities that they must provide.

2056 Racing (Trotting [ASSEMBLY.] Racing) Bill.

The purpose of the Racecourses Development Fund is to provide improved facilities and amenities. At this stage I do not think one could envisage the allocation of funds for trotting for the same purpose as that outlined by the honorable member for Geelong North to assist Mr. Kelly, but I have no doubt that the allocation to Mr. Kelly was one of the greatest examples of the first-class application of funds of this nature to remove what some people who Hved in close vicinity to' the training stables considered to be a residential hazard. The stables have been taken out of a residential area and re-established at a racecourse where excellent facilities have been developed.

In its concept, this is a forwardlooking 'measure, which will assist all sections of the ,community. 'I am delighted that the Government has seen ,fit to bring down a Bill which will provide ,for the chairman 'Of the Trotting Control Board and a person representing country interests to' be members of the Racecourses Licences Board.

lIn conclusion, II point out for the information of the honorable member for Geelong North that, during the Chief Secretary's second-reading speech, at a stage when the honorable gentleman was interpolating during his reading of the prepared notes, I interjected to emphasize that he had omitted a reference to trotting clubs having racecourses. By interjection, I informed the Chief Secretary that the passage that he was reading referred to country trotting clubs having racecourses within a race-meetings district. By omitting the 'words in question, the honorable gentleman had not properly clarified the position concerning representation on the Racecourses Licences Board. On behalf of the Country Party, I not only welcome the Bill but also wish it a speedy passage.

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Warrnambool).I wish to speak briefly on this measure, which amends the Racing A1ct 1958. I agree entirely with the

principle of allocating for the improvement of trotting facilities throughout the State 1 per cent. of the investments 'On daily doubles on the off-course totalizator. One provision in the Bill is causing me some concern. Representatives of the Terang Trotting Club have directed my attention to the fact that, in the past, the 24 trotting clubs have not been ade~ quately represented on the hierarchy of the trotting control administration in Victoria. The Bill will empower the Chief Secretary to appoint to the Race1courses Licences Board a person who, in his opinion, represents the interests of country trotting clubs. I commend to the Chief Secretary the suggestion that he should thoroughly investigate the possibility of selecting as a representative on the Board a person who will be truly representative of all 24 trotting clubs throughout the State, even if it means checking with each club and asking for nominations.

1Mr. Moss.-Whom do you suggest should be appointed to the Board?

Mr. ,I. W. tSIMITH.-It is not my prerogative to suggest or recommend anyone for the position. However, it is important to the Terang Trotting Cluib and the other 23 trotting clubs that they should be able to look to the person who is app'Ointed as being responsible for their interests. 'I have no doubt that the money in the Racecourses Development Fund will be used wisely in the interests of trotting throughout the country areas of the State. I hope the Terang Trotting Club will receive the consideration to which it is entitled when the funds are available as envisaged in this Bill.


'f.he Bill was read a second time and com,mitted.

Clause 1 was agreed to.

Clause 2 (Chairman of Racecourses Licences Board).

Mr. MOSS (Leader 'Of the Country Party) .-When dealing with the matter that was raised by the hon-


orable member for Warrnambool during the second-reading debate, the Chie,f Secretary stated in his explanatory speech-

I assure the House that the intention of this legislation is to reconstitute the Racecourses Licences Board so far as trotting is concerned, in order that the Board will be constituted in the same way ·as the Board which deals with horse racing. In other words, the chairman will be the same; the Trotting Control Board will have one representative, who will be the chairman or his nominee; and the Chief Secretary will be obliged, and will have no alternative, to appoint a person from the country trotting interests, just as he is obliged to appoint a person representing country interests to the Board which deals with gallopers.

If possible, I should like the Committee to be informed more specifically concerning the appointment of a person from the country trotting interests. The Chief Secretary dealt 'with this in a 'matter-of-fact 'manner, but honorable members are entitled to know who will be appointed to this important position. Will he be a member of the Trotting Control Board, or will he be an outsider? Will the appointed person reside outside the metropolitan area, as has been suggested in the Chief Secretary's speech? Honorable members are entitled to further information on this aspect.

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).I am sure the Leader of the Country Party realizes that the Chief Secretary is handling this measure on behalf of the Government. I shall convey to my colleague the request of the Leader of the Country Party for further information. I do not know whether the honorable member wishes progress to be reported at this stage or whether he will be satisfied if I convey his 'comments to' the Chief Secretary who, II a'm sure, 'will supply further information concerning the matter that has been raised.

Mr. IVIOSS (Leader of the Country Party) .--:1 am not asking that progress should be reported, but I believe that the Committee should be enlightened on the aspect to which I referred. So long as the requisite information is supplied before this Bill

is passed by 'Parliament, I shall be satisfied. Will the appointment be on the same basis as appointments to the Trotting Control Board, which consists of two representatives nominated by the country trotting association outside the metropolitan area and, OIf course, one member who is interested in the metropolitan area? Will the person who is appointed be resident outside the metropolitan area, or will he be an officer or member of the Trotting Control Board? I shall be grate,ful if this infor,mation is supplied before the Bill is passed.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North).I support the re'marks of the Leader of the Country :Party. The matter to which reference was made by the honorable member for Warrnambool was raised last week by the honorable member .for Kara Kara, and I referred to it in 'my second-reading speech earlier today. As the Leader of the Country Party stated, the Chief Secretary insinuated that the appointee would be a person 'who represents the country areas. However, unless the appointed person has the support of the country trotting clubs, he will not truly represent 'country interests. The appointee should have the support of ·country trotting clubs; he should not merely represent them as a figurehead. I hope the position will be clarified :by the Chief Secretary.

The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 3 to 4.

Clause 5 was verbally amended, and, as amended, was adopted, as was the remaining clause.

The Bill was reported to the 'House with an amendment, and passed through its remaining stakes.

PROBATE DUTY BILL. The debate (adjourned from

November 19) on the motion of Sir Henry Bolte (Premier and Treasurer) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

2058 Probate Duty [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

Mr. STONEHAM {Midlands).-This small but important Bill ~mends section 24 of the Probate Duty Act 1962. I shall not detain the House at length because members of the Opposition do not oppose its passing. In his second-reading speech, the Premier explained that by the enactment of the 1962 legislation, Parliament intended that the rebate of 30 per cent. of the duty should be allowed on primary-producing estates which pass to relatives by blood or marriage. However, last year in Campbell's case, Mr. Justice Menhennitt held that the actual passing of the estate must occur before the rebate became allowable. This amending Bill provides for the insertion of the following new sub-section (7 A) of section 24 of the principal Act:-

For the purposes .of paragraph (b) of sub-section (7) property shall be deemed to have passed to a person who is related by blood or marriage to the deceased if the Commissioner is satisfied that the property is likely to pass to such a person.

Clause 3 provides-The provisions of section 24 of the prin

cipal Act as amended by this Act shall apply to and with respect to the estates of persons dying before .on or after the commencement of this Act.

Honorable members who are conversant with Campbell's case will realize the necessity for this small measure. As explained by the Premier, Mr. Justice Menhennitt's ruling would mean that the Commissioner of Probate Duties, solicitors, executors and trustee companies would have to keep their files open for twenty years or even longer in a case where a life tenant was involved before the property passed to, say, the son of the deceased. This Bill is an administrative amendment which has the full support of the Opposition.

Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Shepparton) .-The Country Party supports the important amendment contained in this Bill. Campbell's case has had the effect of keeping a number of probate files open for many years. In recent months, the Commissioner of Probate Duties has been allowing

the 30 per cent. rebate in respect of probate on . land used for primary-producing purposes and passing to a member of the family of the deceased. But where a life tenant is involved, he has issued instructions that if the land should be sold to an outsider before it passes to such member entitled to it, he would seek a refund of the 30 per cent. concession that has already been allowed. If the life tenant lived on the property for 40 years, the situation would reach the ridiculous stage of the probate file having to be kept open and the 30 per cent. rebate having to be refunded.

The amendment contained in proposed sub-section (7 A) of section 24 of the principal Act provides that the property shall be deemed to have passed to a person who is related by blood or marriage to the deceased if the Commissioner is satisfi~d that the property is likely to pass to ~~ch a pers'on. I am sure that the provIsIon will be used in a common-sense way.


The Bill w'as read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages.

LEGAL AID BILL. The debate (adjourned from No

vember 11) on the motion of Mr. Reid (Attorney-General) for the second reading 'Of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-This is an important Bill. No one can deny that, in many ways, the poor and the needy are denied justice. Members of the Labor Party are continually fighting a war on poverty and for that reason they support this measure. Before I speak to the Bill, Mr. Speaker, perhaps you will permit me to read from the book, Australian and New Zealand Criminology, an article entitlec;l "Poverty and the Law-the LimitaHons of Australian Legal Aid", written by James, J. Spigelman, B.A.

Legal Aid [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Bill. 2059

(Honors), Tutor in Government at the University of Sydney. At page 87, he wrote-

We have recently witnessed this process in operation within the New South Wales legal system. A Sydney magistrate, G. M. Locke, S.M., first granted bail to the defendant invalid pensioner then withdrew the grant; refused his requests for an adjournment to obtain legal representation; and referred with stern disapproval to a list of convictions which had neither been proved nor even admitted in evidence and which the defendant denied. On appeal Holmes J. A. declared :

"The picture is one which shows how the poor, sick and friendless are still oppressed by the machinery of justice which needs a -Fielding or a Dickens to describe in words and a Hogarth to portray pictorially. "

This is a serious allegation and yet the interest of the legal profession in this case was concentrated on the rap over the knuckles given to the magistrate concerned. Corbishley failed to stimulate any debate about the position of the poor in the Australian legal system. The case itself shows that the law can deliver justice, if used properly, but there appears to be no realization that such cases may only represent the tip of an iceberg. The Australian situation stands in marked contrast to the fervour of activity in the United States of America, out of which has come a serious attempt to refoml a system in which justice is rationed. The legal profession is a key participant in the newly fashionable debate on poverty.

Many practitioners have now joined the Labor p.arty. The article eontinues-

Considerable research has already been carried out in the United States of America on the peculiar legal problems of Jthe poor. In the field of family law, problems of desertion, child abuse and illegitimacy often raise difficult legal questions. In relation to housing, the poor are often denied their legal .rights in eviction proceedings and in the landlord's failure to repair or to meet housing code requirements. A combination of deceit and lack of consumer education poses further problems particularly in relation to credit for consumer purchases from merchants and door-to-door salesmen.

I congratulate the Attorney-General for introducing this Bill after fifteen years, late though it may be. It has taken a long time to look after the poor and the needy who, down through the ages, have been denied justice in many ways. Generally, the poor can sue or defend an action only in forma pauperis. Some years

ago a Labor Government introduced a Bill to provide assist'ance to poor persons, particularly in indictable, divorce and workers eompensation proceedings; above all, it allowed them representation in Supreme Court -and County Court actions. The barrier in those days was a means test of £100; under the present legislation if a person has more than $500 assistance ~is not available.

The legislation which set up the Legal Aid Committee was doubtless experimental, but it proved successful. A person may have more than $500 and yet be poor and needy. It is no.w proposed that such a person can go to. a solicitor, who, if he feels that the applicant has a case, can brief counsel and look after the person's interests in the same way as a solicitor looks after the interests of a rich client. Perhaps there was the disability that there was not enough money in the Legal Aid Fund. Under the provisions of this Bill, both the solicitor and the barrister will receive 80 per cent. of their normal fees.

The Bill will enable justice to be obtained by many needy people who without its enactment :may have been denied it. Although the case may be only a small one, it may be important to them. It could be a running down case in which the persons concerned are unable to pay the necessary fees to secure legal representation. I have no doubt the provisions of the Bill will be of great advantage to poor litigants. If it is passed a person will no longer be able to go to the Public Solicitor for assistance except where crim,inal proceedings are involved. In such a case the Public Solicitor will brief counsel; certain funds are available from which counsel will be paid. As pointed out by the Attorney-General, some complications arise when legal aid is sought from the Public Solicitor. To some extent, the difficulties have been straightened out and the application of an accused person will be more speedily dealt with.

Clause 3 of the Bill specifies the persons who may apply to the Attorney-General to cause arrangements to

2060 Legal Aid [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

be made for their defence or representations and the payment of expenses of all Imaterial witnesses, namely-

(a)

(b)

Any person committed for .trial, whether in pursuance of the provisions of the Justices Act 1958 or the Coroners Act 1958, for an indictable offence against the laws of Victoria;

Any person to whom notice of trial for any such offence or notice of intention to prefer a presentment for any such offence has been given by or on behalf of the AttorneyGeneral or the Solicitor-General or any Prosecutor for the Queen;

(c) Any person having been tried for any such offence who is directed to stand a further trial for that offence;

(d) Any person charged with treason murder or manslaughter;

(e) Any appellant to the Full Court of the Supreme Court upon any appeal with respect to an indictable offence;

(f) Any appellant to the Privy Council in respect of an offence for which he has been sentenced to death;

(g) Any respondent to an appeal brought on behalf of Her Majesty.

The rights of a person are clearly stated. The Attorney-General has pointed out the way in which the funds will be prov'ided. Clause 8 of the Bill states-

(1) The committee shall establish and administer a scheme for providing legal assistance either without payment therefor or upon payment of such sum or sums towards the costs and expenses thereof as :the committee thinks reasonable.

(2) Where the committee provides legal assistance the costs thereof, ,to the extent to which payment is due by the assisted person, shall be a first charge for the benefit of the Legal Aid Fund on any property (wherever situate) which is recovered or preserved for him in the proceedings.

Under Part II. of the proposed legislation, the Legal Aid Act 1961 is repealed, and clause 7 provides for the setting-up of a new committee. Clause 8 provides, inter alia-

(1) The committee shall establish and administer a scheme for providing legal assistance, either without payment itherefor or upon payment of such sum or sums towards the costs and expenses thereof as the committee thinks reasonable.

Mr. Turnbull.

It puts one in mind of a public hospital. If a person is able to pay something, he pays. If he is unable to do so, the Legal Aid Fund, which is set up by clause 10, will cover the position., Paragraph (c) of sub-clause (3) of this clause provides that out of the Fund shall be paid-any amount certified to the Treasurer of Victoria by the committee from month to month to be required to provide for ,the payment by the committee to barristers and solicitors assisting in the scheme of eighty .per cent. of ,their total costs as certified by the committee.

In some cases the solicitor may receive all his fees. Clause 10 also refers to the moneys that may be paid into the Fund.

In his second-reading speech, the Attorney-General stated-

(a) When fully implemented the reorganization of functions will prevent a repetition of difficulties in civil matters which have arisen in the Public Solicitor'S Office in recent years.

(b) Legal assistance in criminal matters will be extended and ext>edited.

(c) Quite apart from speedier handling of civil matters, the scheme administered by the Legal Aid Committee is able to-

(i) respond much more quickly to increases in business, because of the number of solicitors assisting in the scheme; and

(ii) provide a more satisfactory solicitorclient relationship than the Public Solicitor who, under present circumstances, has thousands of clients on his books.

The Bill will provide legal justice to people who, in the past, have been denied it, and it is sincerely hoped that many poor and needy persons will benefit. For these reasons, the Opposition supports the Bill.

Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Shepparton) .-The Country Party supports the Bill and regards it as a big step forward in ensuring that justice is available to all sections of the community. It is appropriate to pay tribute to the legal profession, because the community does not appreciate how much tits members have done over the years for people who have been u,nable to pay legal fees. My experience of legal practitioners is in


the main limited to those practising in country areas where there are closeknit communities, and it would be rare indeed for someone not to obtain justice. For example, I have never seen an Aborigine standing helpless in court without a legal practitioner stepping forward to defend him.

In his second-reading speech the Minister mentioned that solicitors who participated in the legal aid scheme in the past two years had received approximately 50 per cent. of their fees. It is generally accepted that the overheads of a solicitor amount to about 60 per cent. of his gross receipts, so even those solicitors who participated in the sche,me have operated at a loss.

It is appropriate to mention the problems that exist in connexion with people who ~re in custody, awaiting trial, particularly in Pentridge Gaol, because their need -is much greater than that of the person who is free. The person in prison on remand badly needs legal aid. It is one thing to set up a system such as is provided in this Bill, but it is another to make sure that it works. I appeal to the Minister to use his best endeavours to ensure that people in Pentridge who ask for legal aid have the opportunity of securing it. I regard this Bill as a progressive move in the developmen t of the legal system of Victoria, and I congratulate the AttorneyGeneral for sponsoring it.

Mr. DOYLE (Gisborne).-I propose to address myself, firstly, to the details of this Bill, and then to the principles that lie behind it. The legal aid scheme is of considerable importance in view of recent investigations made by the Liberal Party into certain conditions of social distress existing in the State. I agree with the learned member for Shepparton that the legal profession has responded well and generously to this scheme since it was introduced in 1964. From my experience as a practitioner both in the suburbs and in the country, I feel that the system has worked very well.

Session 1969.-75

The Bill is divided into three Parts. I shall not deal with Part I. but Part II. is intended to replace the Legal Aid Act 1961. In clauses 10 and 12 it provides for the only two changes which have been proposed since the 1961 legislation was enacted. Clause 10 provides for the establishment of a Legal Aid Fund to comprise moneys derived from various sources. Firstly, moneys payable to the Treasurer under the Legal Profession Practice Act 1958 as a contribution towards the cost incurred by the State in providing legal aid; secondly, surplus moneys in the Appeal Costs Fund. This Fund is created by the imposition of additional stamp duties payable on summonses issued. Therefore, every plaintiff and complainant in the State, will be adding to this Fund. Thirdly, there shall be paid into the fund sums presently provided by the Treasurer f.or administration of the legal assistance scheme and disbursements under that scheme, together with the sum necessary to enable payment of 80 per cent. of costs, as certified by the Legal Aid Committee, can be made to barristers and solicitors assisting in the scheme. Fourthly, contributions by assisted persons and costs recovered in successful actions shall be paid into the Fund. If any contribution can be made by persons helped by the scheme it js right that they should do so. Fifthly, any amount which is held in the trust account operated by the Legal Aid Committee at the time this legislation comes into effect shall be credited to the Fund.

The money will be paid out in accordance with the following priorities: -Firstly, the costs of administration of the scheme; secondly, necessary disbursements in conn ex ion with matters in which assistance has been granted; thirdly, refunds of excess contributions paid by assisted persons; and fourthly, the amount certified by the Committee to be payable to barristers and solicitors assisting the scheme.

2062 Legal Aid [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

Part III. deals with transitory and supplementary provisions. These provisions relate to the terminating of the role of the Public Solicitor in civil matters so that they may be transferred to the Legal Aid Com-mittee. .

I shall refer now to the principle behind the legal aid scheme. The principle is that no person in the State, no matter how necessitous his circum .. stances, should, because of his circumstances, be denied justice. One matter that disturbs me, after having made a fairly concentrated study of the position with other honorable members of this House, is that on too many occasions persons who are living below the poverty Une get into trouble because they have not had the benefit of legal advice. In otherwOords, there shOould be more and better facUities for ,counselHng, parHcularly on debt consolidation, before the stage ,is reached when a perslOn has tOo appear before a court. I understand that a service of this type was available from the Public Solicit'Or, but that for good reasons it has been dis'continued.

More 'attention and emphas:is should be giv~n to helping people out of trouble at an early stage. People can be helped by being ,shown hlOw to ,manage their own affairs, how to budget, and so on. The ~nabHity t'O oope with ,financial problems lis the root cause of many homes being broken up, ,with the resulting sodal welfare problems. Action 'must be tWo-sided. The legal pr'Ofess'ionmust be ready to 'assist, .and people ,must be prepared to put their problems at an early stage t'O :those providing the service. The legal aid scheme is worth while and does a great deal to help the pOOor but more could be dlOne to help overcome their' difficulties beflOre resort is had to litigation.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine).-I support the statements made by the honorable member for Bruns'wick West. 'f,o supply the honorable member foT' Gisborne with a very sm,all part IQf the available infOormat'ion

on the problems he referred to, I shall refer to 'cases ~n 'which 'I have been personalrly linvolved. Unfortunately, a certain ,class of solicit'Or helps tD cause tJhese pr'Oblems. SoHdtors within this category have funds available 'and they apply thei!r professional servi'ces to the lending of mlOney to people to buy houses. Some firms, one or two of which are located lin Collins-street, are associated with companies having quite a variety of names. One 'w,ith which I had some deaHngscomes to mind. It was cal,led "Student World" and it 'advertised by various means, induding televis'ion, that it had houses for sale.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Is the honorable 'member referring to legal aid?

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Yes, that is what I am going to refer to.

The SPEAKER.-I invite the honorable ,member to do that.

M'r. LOVEGROVE.---JI will not be able to, unless I am permitted--

The SPEAKER.-Order! The honorable member will 'continue his speech.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Iw,as going to continue, befoore you advised 'me to, Sir, on the ,case iI had 'mentioned, and I shaH do that. One of these companies, 'whi'ch are supported by a certain dass of solicitor, sold a house to a Sunshine deserted wife with three 'children who, obviously, because of her income was unable to buy a house. The house was sold on a small deposit and on terms requiring .the balance to be paid in· 4 or 5 years or whatever period was set. The company Imust 'have known quite 'well that the woman could not meet the 'conditions of the sale.

This sort of thing has happened with many other poor people. Eventually they reach the stage when they c'lnnot keep up the payments for the houses 'and they are dispossessed. The .moneys they have p'a~d are appropriated ; they get nothing ba'ck. They then seek legal aid. Cases of this


type in my ,electorate have been brought to my attention. The situation referred t'O by the honorable member for Gisborne then 'Occurs. These people .face difficulties from which they eannot extricate themselves, legally or financially.

In the first p,lace, the companies ooncerned should never have sold them houses, as they kne'w the purchasers could not pay Ifor them. In the second place, it is often found that a legal firm which car.ried out the conveyancing has ,some connexion with the company concerned. It is at this ,stlage that those offering legal aid 'must deoide 'whether to advise the people in diffi,culties to get out of their ,comm:i:tments or to do something to' relieve the situation temporadly.

The Government should examine the way in which houses are advertised ,for sale ,and the conditions under which solidtors' funds are ,made availlable tro finance the s'ale of houses when there should be no sale. I agree with the honorable 'member for Brunswick W'est that, under the existing legislation, the Legal Aid Oom;mittee has done a remarkably good job ~or both the profession 'and its clients. However, the -circumstances visualized by the honorable member Tor Gisborne as those in which assistance should be given are irremediable until law reforms of a most desirable nature are brought about.

The motion was 'agreed to. Tthe BiB was read a second time

and committed, pro forma.

Mr. REID (Attarney-General) presented a Imessage from His Excellency the Governor recom'mending that an appropriatiron be made from the CansoHdated Revenue for the purposes of this Bill.

A resolutian in ,accordance with the recommendation was passed in Committee and adopted by the House.

The Hause went intO' Com'mittee for the :consideration of this Bill.

Olause 1 was agreed to.

Clause 2 (Repeal of prOVision as to assistance in cr1minal matters).

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).I acknowledge the w'arth of the contributians Imade by those hanarable members who spoke during the second-reading debate. I have taken nate af what was said and I shall examine the recammendations 'm'ade. The honorable ,member for Shepparton referred to' the difficulties 'Of peop,le in custady in obtaining legal aid. I shall examine the administrative problem. The honorable member for Gisbarne referred to debt adjustment. I lassure him that that 'matter is being exam'ined at present, although I think that this is a prablem which concerns the accountancy profess'ion to a ,large extent, and some 'aid ,might be sought from tbat prafessian. I have noted what the hanarable member far Sunshine said in regard to the particular problem with 'which he was concerned.

I acknowledge the support given by the Opposition and by the Country Party to' this Bill, whkh I helieve to' be a great step forw'ard -in the provision .of legal 'aid to persons 'Of Hmiited ,means. I jain in the tributes paid to' the profession for the suppolrt it has given to the develap'ment of legal aid. In particular, II have lin mind the great volume of work done by representatives 'Of the Bar Council and the Council of the Law Institute of Victaria in developing the ideas behind the relevant Bills. The gentlemen concerned warked an this prablem far a lang time in ca-aperatian with officers af my Department, natably the secretary and the assisttant-secretary. We must alsO' be grateful to' those officers for the war:k they put into praducing what I believe to' be a very constructive Bill.

The clause 'was agreed to', as 'were the remaining clauses.

Tthe Bill 'was reported to the House without amendment, and passed thraugh its remaining st'ages.

2064 North Melbourne Lands [ASSEMBLY.] (Loans to Lessees) Bill.

CROWN PROCEEDINGS (FORFEITED RECOGNISANCES)

BILL. The debate ~adjoumed from

October 30) on the 'motion of Mr. Re'id (Attorney-General) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-This is a Bill to amend the Crown Proceedings Act 1958 and Part IV. of the Justices Act 1958 with respect to the recovery of moneys due under forfeited recognisances. The law in relation to the 'matters with which this measure deals is somewhat archaic; the Bill will modernize the legislation in accordance with well-known practices. The Bill was fully debated in another place and it was explained lin detail in this House by the Attorney-General. In view of the fact that my party supported the Bill in another place, no useful purpose would be served by my reiterating what was said concerning the measure in the Upper House. The Opposition supports the Bill.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time,

and passed through its remaining stages.

NORTH MELBOURNE LANDS (LOANS TO LESSEES) BILL.

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands) .-1 move-

That this Bill be now read a second time. By the provisions of the North Melbourne Lands Act 1966, No. 7446, the corporation of the City of Melbourne, as committee of management of the Crown reservation at Arden-street, North Melbourne, which is the home ground of the North Melbourne football and cricket clubs, is authorized to grant leases of the whole, or any part of that reserve, for the purposes of sport, recreation or social activities or purposes connected therewith, including the erection of buildings.

The North Melbourne Lands (Amendment) Act 1967, No. 7653, a~mended Act No. 7446 of 1966, by the

addition of a new section numbered 6A, sub-section (1) of which empowered the corporation of the City of Melbourne to make a loan or loans out of the municipal fund to any lessee of the reserve or any part thereof, for the purpose of erecting buildings on or otherwise improving the reserve or any part or parts thereof leased by the committee of management in accordance with the provisions of the original Act of 1966. Sub-section (2) of section 6A limited, to an aggregate of $60,000, the amount of loan accommodation which could be provided by the corporation under the enabling legislation.

In order to assist in financing the erection of a social club building on portion of the reserve, the Melbourne City Council approved of a loan of $60,000 to the North Melbourne Football Club Sodal Club, and that Club has now made application to the Council for a further loan of $35,000 to cover an increase in building construction costs brought about by the original plans being adjusted to provide for increased capacity.

Revised estimates of the Club's expected membership fees and subscriptions, together with estimated income from club activities, have satisfied the Council that the Club's finances are sufficiently sound to warrant the Council making the further amount of $35,000 available to the Club, provided that the existing legislation is amended to empower the Council to make the increased loan. The Bill proposes that the corporation of the City of Melbourne shall be provided with that authority to make the loan of an additional $35,000 to the Social Club.

The measure is in itself a simple one of two clauses. Clause 1 cites the short-title of the proposed enactment as the North Melbourne Lands (Loans to Lessees) Act 1969, arid links it to the North Melbourne Lands Act 1966, No. 7446, as the principal Act. Clause 2 provides for sub-section (2) of section 6A of the principal Act to be amended by substituting

Friendly Societies [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] (Amendment) Bill. 2065

the amount of $95,000 for the amount of $60,000 at present set out in the existing legislation.

The loan provision was made in the 1966 Act because of the fact that section 802A of the Local Government Act 1958 was deemed not to apply in the case of the North Melbourne recreation reserve. A possible a,mendment of the Local Government Act, to bring within the ambit of section 802A certain lands additional to those vested solely in municipalities, is being investigated by the Local Government Department, but in the meantime, in view of the urgency of the Social Club's requirement, the Bill is submitted for the consideration of honorable members. I commend the measure to the House.

On the motion of Mr. CLAREY ('Melbourne), the debate was adjourned.


The sitting was suspended at 6.25 p.m,. until 8.3 p.m.


The debate (adjourned from November 12) on the 'motion of Sir Arthur Rylah (Chief Secretary) for the second reading of this BiU was resumed.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-The OpposiNon is supporting, or at 'least is not opposing, this Bill to amend the F'riendly Sooieties Act. The 'measure was explained by the Chief Secretary on 12th November. I ,mention that fact so that those 'who are interested in friendly societies and wh'O read Hansard will be able to refresh their memories without lmy !fepeafoing everything that ,was said by the Minister. In his explanatory spee,ch, the Chief Secretary said-

The Bill generally follows the lines of a measure that was passed by this House during the last session of Parliament, but which apparently did not meet with ,the approval of our masters in another place. As a melmber of the L'abor Party, I beN eve that we do not need " another place". Towards the end of last

session, the Government was endeavouring to push through 'a m'easure 1"elatring to friendly societies but the other ,House agreed that the debate on it should be adjourned for one month. In the intervening period, for some reason the Government decided that Parliam'ent should be prorogued, so the Bill lapsed. As a consequence, another Bill dealing with the subject has been introduced, and I quote from the Hansard report of the Chief Secretary's secondreading speech-

During the intervening period, several meetings of the Friendly Societies Association were held to discuss the Bill and, later, representatives of the Association met the Government Statist. As a result, several amendments to the earlier Bill have been agreed to and are incorporated in the Bill now presented, which possibly has the full support of the Friendly Societies Association.

Mr. CLAREY.-The Friendly Societies Association has not yet seen the Bill.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-That is why I use the word "possibly". I was sure that the honorable member for Melbourne would be bound to find fault with some of its provisions.

Mr. CLAREY.-Ishall do that on principle. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-I thought I might

meet the honorable member's opposition before it was voiced. The Mlinister went 'On to give a 'Olear explanation. I do not propose to reiterate the honorable gentleman's comments because the honorable member for Drom'ana is not present. Honorable members will !fecaJH that on one occasion when I 'said a Mlinister had given a good second-reading speech, the honorable ,member for Dromana accused me of not 'making a second-reading speech but of explaining to the House what had already been explained.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-YOU are very sensitive.

Mr. CLAREY.-I would agree if the Chief Secretary said "sensible".

The SPEAKER (the' Hon. Ve.mon Christie,).-Order! The honorable member should address the Chair.

Mr. CLAREY.-This BHI ,i's i'mportant because friendly societies have oonnexions or associ'aHons with

2066 Friendly Societies [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

at least half the populatiJon of the State. It lis very difficult to know the predse number of people wh~ ~re actively connected wIth socIetI~s because Ireturns 'are kept on a certaIn basis. Many Hmes II have infonned the House that I a'ma member of the greatest friendly s'ociety in this State-the Australian Natives Association. I a'm also a member of anO'ther friendly so.ciety but I had better nort ,menttion 'its name because I might be accused of some bias. Some people are basic or insurance benefit members of friendly societies whilst others join purely for the hospital or medical benefits. Judging from the report of the Government Statist at least 250,000 people within Victoria must be actively associated with friendly societies. To get the total number of people benefiting therefrom it may be necessary to multiply that number many times. In any event, this Bill probably affects at least half the population of the State.

When a slilmi,lar ,m·easure was before the House l'ast session, the OppO'sition and the Country Party opposed certain clauses. In fact, I 'moved that two sub-clauses of clause 4 of that BUI should be omitted. Ho.wever, the Government Wo.uld not have a bar O'f it. The measure was passed by this House because of the support of those sHent Imemberswho Slit behind the Government. It was trans1mitted to anO'ther place, which decided that lits provis'ions sho.uld be mOore clos·ely exa'mined. It is interesting to no.te that the sub-dauses 'which the OpposiN.on voted against in this House have been omitted from this Bill.

The honorable member for Mildura handled the previous measure on behalf of the Country Party and the ho.norable member for Bennettswood handled it for the Govem;ment. I reoalll one member O'f the Co.untry Party pointing out that the Bill was not being handled by the Minister of St,ate Development, 'who sat at the tahle, but ·that it was being handled by the honorable member for

Mr. Clarey.

Bennettswood. At aU events, the Bill now before the ,House does not contain the provis~ions which . w~re objected to by the friendly s:~C'1etIes. Therefore, they do not ra'1se any particular objection to the measure.

The previous !measure contained certain provisions in regard to' the auditing of branchaccO'unts. There are hundreds O'f branches of 'friendly s:ocieUies through the State and the s'O'ciet'y with whkh T am 'connected has about 240 of them. The Government's original propos all was that a qualified auditor shO'uld audit the aocounts of even the S'maHest -country branch and that .the auditorr should in no 'way be connected with the administration of the society. As I happened to be treasurer of the bO'~rd of directors of the AustTalran N at'ives Association, I could not be the auditor of a branch of which I have been a 'member for 50 years. Ho.wever, that provision has been removed S'O that I 'wiU be per.mitted to continue as auditor.

The provisions in regard to auditorship have been altered so that the head office of an organization can, subject to certain conditions, say that a person who is not certificated may be appointed as auditor of a branch. I prefer the word "certificated" to the word "qualified". According to a recent court judgment, even the firm of Flack and Flack, one of the greatest names in this State, is not necessarily the best firm for the job. In future, if the head office of a friendly soctiet,y has certain members on its staff of whom it approves, they may act as auditors. I suppO'se they are inspectors, but at the same Hme they 'are auditors, and they 'wiU be entitled t'O carry out tho.se duties. The friendly soodeties have 'won their ,main argument-not because any of them wants unqualified audito.rs or unsuitable 'auditors, but U they know of someone whO' is not quaHfied orr does not have ·any letters after his nam~as lis the case with the seioretary 'Of the Flemington branch of the Australian Natives Associatio.n-he imay be appointed as


auditor. Under the Bill ,if the secretary, s'ay, of the Flemington branch of the Australian Natives Association knows his job, the head offke may decide that it wishes him to audit the books of the branch.

Mr. PORTER.-Provided that he is a registered company 'auditor.

Mr. CLAREY.-Not necessarily, as I shall explain. In his explanatory speech, the Chief 'Secretary said-

I am advised by the Government Statist that the standard of auditing reflected in the annual returns of branches submitted to him is frequently very poor.

I 'a'm prepared to accept tbat statement, -in so'me respects, because I recall that when I was appointed auditor of the ,F'lemington branch of the Australian Natives Association 'many years ago the then secretary admitted that some previous auditors simply accepted the figures on his returns. Those days have long passed. As a matter O'f fact, the principle of certi:ficated auditors has nO'w been written into the Arbitration Act, and other legislation. I happened to be a ,member of the Clerks Union, and according to the Act I was not entitled to audit the books of that union. Therefore, I had to join another union -the 'Miscellaneous Workers Union -so that 'I could continue as auditor. The Chief Secretary also said-

It would appear from events in Sydney today that qualified auditors are not particularly good. Accordingly, except in respect of shop clubs, it is proposed .to preclude unqualified auditors from conducting audits ...

He went on to say-The effect of these provisions will be to

ensure that where individual branches of a society wish to retain their complete autonomy the accounts must be audited by qualified auditors.

I direct the attention of the M-inister O'f Publ,k Works tO'this statement by the Chief Secreta1ry-

On the other hand, if by ,the rules the central body has the power to control branches, the present systems of audit may be retained . . .

In other ,words, if the cent'ral body, unoer its rules, has power to control

branches, the ,audits 'may be conducted by persons who are not necessarily 'certificated auditors.

The BiHcontains one or two other provisions, one Qif wbkh the f~iendly sooieties have accepted but about which I am not very happy. Section 7 of the Friendly Societies Act states-

The Governor in Council may from time to time appoint some fit and proper person being a barrister-at-Iaw of the Supreme Court of the State of Victoria of not less than seven years standing ,to be Registrar of Friendly Societi~s hereinaf.ter called ".the Registrar" .

Vb'at provision has been in the Act for years. Now the Government adopts the ,attitude: Get rid of the barristers and solicitors! Sub-section (1) of proposed new sect,ion 7 provides-

Subject to the Public Service Act 1958 there shall be appOinted a Registrar of Friendly Societies hereafter in this Act called the "Registrar". and also some fit and proper person to' act in lieu of the Registrar ...

Barristers and solicitors may not necessarily be appointed as Registrar. I recall that, some years ago, the present Government and the present Chief Secretary proposed amendments to the Companies Act to provide that the chairman of the Companies Auditors Board should be a barrister and solicitor; Now the Government is saying that it wants to get rid of barristers and solicitors and to appoint as Registrar someone who will be subject to the Public Service Act. He will be in the office of the Government Statist. The Registrar will no longer be an independent p'erson, completely ,free from any control or suggestion by the Government Statist, but he wiH be practically an officer on his staff. The friendly socieNes-not unall'imouslygeneraHy do not approve of that proproposal, but they have decided to accept it.

1ihe third matter I ,mention is a m'atter of principle, which the 'honorable me1mber for Bennettswood will

2068 Friendly Societies [ASSEMBLY.j (Amendment) Bill.

-appreoiate. At present, ~on:ns "A", which friendly societies have to submit to the Government Statist, have on one side "receipts" and 'On the other side "expenditure" . Those two words "receipts" and "expenditure" are not appropriate but, in the past, the Government Statist has regarded them as recelipts and payments. Now they 'are to become inco'me and expenditure, so that in the 'accounts of the ifl'liendly societies will show the amounts that may have been due as income but have not yet actually been paid in. There is only one technical point involved; that is, whether the interpretation will be that friendly societies are expected to bring into their income the arrears of membership fees, which are not legally recoverable. All friendly societies at present fill in the Government return, but many have another one which brings in income earned and expenditure accrued, and so on, but doe,s not hl'ling in membership fees lin aI'Tears. In Com'mittee I de:slire to ask a quesHon of the M'inister in ,charge of the Bill in regard to dause 4.

Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD (Rodney).-This is a sm'all Bill to a'mend the Friendly Societies Act 1958 and for purposes connelcted therewith. The honorable -membe!r for 'Melbourne has given a fUJll explanation o.f the ,clauses. It is probably ulllf.ortunate that the previous Bill ,was not proceeded with when it was introduced lin the last sessional period aHhough, -according to the Chief Secretary, some provisions in this Bill were not included in that !measUJre. The purpose 'Of the Bill, as outlined in the Chief Secretary's explanatory speech at page 1662 of the current Hansard, is to am'end the prinoipal Act to-

(a) apply stricter auditing provisions .to societies ·and branches-with the exception of shop clubs which have small memberships and limited funds;

(b) require societies to submit more detailed returns to the Government Statist on an accrual basis rather than on a cash basis as at present;

(c) require persons or societies which collect contributions for registered societies to submit returns to the Government Statist;

When friendly societies submtit returns t'O the Government Statist it is necessary thiat there should be a Regis·tra~r, for whose 'appointment provision ,is imade -in clause 2, subject to the Public Service Act 1958. It is essential that he should be divorced from any other o~ganizat'iQn. Returns shQuld he submitted to the Registrar so that he m'ay keep track Qf what is going on in the fl'liendly societies organization. The Chief Secretary said that other purposes of the Bin were to-

(d) empower the central body of a society-

(i) to require a branch which is not functioning satisfactorily to amalgamate wi.th a well-run branch; or

(ii) to direct such a branch as .to how it shall conduct its affairs and in particular what records should be kept in the interest of uniformity of procedures;

If it ,is possi:ble to obtain unifotmity of p~Qcedures lin relation to returns submitted by friendly sooiety organizations, that should be done.

~M'emhers 'Of the Country Party support the BiB. I 'was ·am'az'ed when the honorable 'member for Melbourne decided to' support the measure because 'I thought he 'Would oppose at least portion 'Of it. It was taken ~O'r granted that the BillwQuld be QPposed when the Chief Secretary int~oduced -it into this House. However, that has not been the case. Members Qf our party believe th'at the proposals 'will be Qf advantage to friendly societies, and we therefore support it.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).-· Briefly, I support the remarks of the honorable member for Melbourne who is handHng this measure on behalf of the Opposition and who has explained its techn1k1alities. The Bill is the result of a ,constitutional function exercised by the other House in the l'ast sessiona'l period in 'm'aking known tits 'w.ishes so far as the previous measure' was conce'rned. At


that bim'e great disquiet was engendered by the l'ack .of consultation with fr-iendly societies and associations of friendly societies. I agree 'with the honorable member .for Melbourne that this BiU represents a rational approach to a problem that concerns ;many friendly societies' branches.

I :am interested in friendly societies, and as a result of the controversy on the previous 'measure, r was 'amazed to 'learn that there 'are, some 43 branches, in the area that I represent, with members residing in that locality. F1fom thes'e 43 branches, as a result .of var-ious meetings aver the period whHe the previous measure was being discussed ,in Parliament, I received som'e 26 letters .jnfo~ming ,me of the wishes of the various branches in regard to the Bill and of their concern that there had been no prior consultation with their :membership or the friendly societies -association. The opposition to the Bill was most vocal and this forcibly brought home to me the important part that friendly societies play in my electorate. On this occasion there appears to be no apparent dissent from the friendly societies association or the branches in my electorate and therefore I wholeheartedly support the remarks of the honorable member for Melbourne.

I assume that the branch secretaries, on behalf of their branches, will closely examine the new provisions in the Bill to ensure that inroads are not made into the organizational structures of the branches and the important part they play in the community.

Mr. McLAREN (Bennettswood).I am sure that honorable members generally appreciate any measure to support the friendly society movement. This Bill represents a reasonable compromise from the measure which was introduced last session, but I should like to refer to a few of the facts mentioned by the honorable member for Melbourne in regard to the proposed amendments because

they do not quite fit in with the way in which he suggested the amendments in the previous Bill would operate.

In two directions this measure provides greater responsibility for the central body as against the branches. One relates to the amendments to' section 14 contained in clause 4 of the Bill and this has been emphasized by the honorable member for Melbourne. However, he did not emphasize the point concerning the responsibility for the appointment of auditors to audit the books of the branches. Section 14, as amended, will provide for auditors to be appointed by a method other than that provided for in section 41 of the Act. Section 41 provides that the auditors appointed shall be qualified. This amendment will place on the central body the whole responsibility for the audit procedures carried out at branch level, and that responsibility will be greater if the audit procedures are inadequate. I want to make this point clear to the central bodies of friendly societies because they will be taking the full responsibility.

The provisions of section 28, as amended by clause 6, will also place greater responsibility on the central branch. It provides that where branches are not carrying out their responsibilities and may have become moribund, it is the responsibility of the central body to take the necessary action to ensure that the branches operate properly. I emphasize this point, because it was not emphasized by the honorable member for Melbourne. The central body must retain this responsibility and I thought I should direct that point to the attention of the House.


committed. Clauses 1 to 3 were agreed to. Clause 4 (Auditors).

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-There are one or two comments I want to make in view of the constructive

2070 Friendly Societies [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

suggestions made by the honorable member for Bennettswood. According to the latest report presented to Parliament by the Registrar of Friendly Societies, at the end of the year 1966-67 there were 129 registered friendly societies in Victoria. There are approximately 12 or 15 major societies, most of which have already written into their rules the provisions contained in the Bill. The society with which I am most intimately connected -the Australian Natives Association -has adopted these rules. Branches can be amalgamated.

I referred to the appointment of auditors because many branches have only a few members, and to provide that they must appoint a qualified auditor who could charge anything upwards of $8 an hour would not be fair. I do not expect the Minister of Public Works, who is at the table, to answer the query I am about to raise. It is proposed that before the 1st October of each year the branches or the head office must submit to the Government Statist an annual return to be called Return A in the form prescribed. However, it has not yet been prescribed. That return shall contain the revenue account in respect of each of the several· funds of the society and include all branch funds made out for the period of twelve months ending on 30th June. The position at present is that the head office, through the board of directors, submits a return of the society's funds each half year. A return has to be made out also for the various branches. Is that procedure to be waived and will it be necessary for the central branch to submit a consolidated balance-sheet including all the funds of all the branches? I contacted a certain Government official and he said that he did not know what was intended. If he does not know, how do we expect the Minister to know?

Mr. McLAREN (Bennettswood).I have taken an interest in this Bill and it also comes within my sphere as an accountant; therefore, I should like to refer to the points raised by the

honorable member for Melbourne. I suggest to the Government that when it is prescribing regulations it should examine the form in which the returns are to be set out. In doing so it should bear in mind the points made by the honorable member for Melbourne. I should have thought the same provisions which apply to the consolidated accounts of a company registered under the Companies Act would have to be followed. A company has the right to present a consolidated statement Or to present accounts for each branch separately, together with the accounts of the central company. Therefore, it would probably be preferable for friendly societies to supply their information in a consolidated form than to give details for each of a large number of branches. I suggest that this point should be taken into consideration when the Government is prescribing the form of Return A when the regulations are being formulated.

Mr. PORTER (M,inister of PubHc Works) .-1 am indebted to the honorable members for Melbourne and Bennettswood, both of whom are qualified accountants, for their learned views on this measure. This is a problem for accountants but I point out that the legislation has been drafted after close consultation with the friendly societies. The provisions in clause 4 making it necessary for friendly societies to lodge a return, which has yet to be prescribed, mean that these matters will be dealt with by regulation. I imagine that the practices adopted in the preparation of the Bill will again be followed in the prescription of the regulations. I assure honorable members that the Chief Secretary will in fact adopt this practice and will consult the friendly societies when the regulations are being drafted.

Mr. CLAREY (Melhourne}.-Just in case my remarks have been misunderstood, I want to make it clear that, generally speaking, the association between the friendly societies and the Government Statist has always

Education (Army [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Apprentices Schoof) Bill. 2071

been amicable· despite the fact that they have not always agreed. Although I may have asked certain questions concerning the interpretation of some of the provisions of the Bill, 1 am quite happy to leave the matter to be ironed out in detail later.



EDUCATION (ARMY APPRENTICES SCHOOL) BILL.

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-1 move-

That this Bill be now read a second time. The purpose of this short Bill is to enable the Minister of Education to take over the Army Apprentice School, Balcombe. For many years the Army has conducted a trade school for members of the permanent Army at Balcombe-and I might add conducted it very well indeed-but it has been bedevilled by the perennial problem of recruiting and holding suitable civilian teaching staff. To the latter the place is somewhat of a backwater; it offers no opportunities for fresh experiences through transfer to other technical schools and no prospects for promotion. Hence the staff tend to become dissatisfied. To meet the problem, the Commonwealth has asked the Government to' take over the civoilian teaching staff and to integrate it with the Education Department's teaching staff.

Having in mind the primary purpose of the trade training that ar,my apprentices receive, it might be argued that the State Education Department is not obliged to provide it ; on the other hand, the Department has long agO' assumed the responsibility of training industrial apprentices for all sorts of trades, and it would be a very parochial view indeed to hold that, because these apprentices are in the Army, they should be denied the best training

facilities by the State. Thus, while it must be conceded that no significant advantage would accrue to the Education Department by the takeover, there is little doubt that there would be advantages for the community in the better qualifications and training of staff and the lift in morale arising from the opportunity for regulated promotion and transfer into other schools.

The Commonwealth would, of course, remain responsible for capital and maintenance expenses at the school and would reimburse the State the cost of salaries and allowances paid to the teaching staff.

I regret the need to bring this measure on so close to the recess, but 1 am sure that honorable members will appreciate that the Education Department is anxious to take over the staff from the beginning of the 1970 school year and is especially anxious that there should be no delay in advertising the position of principal of the school-which can not of course, be done until the Bill is passed. 1 commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion O'f Mr. WILKES (Northcote) , the debate was adjourned.

Mr. ROSSITER (M·inister of Labour and Industry) .-1 suggest that the debate be adjourned until tomorrow.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I point out that the House is not rushing through business in order to finish the sessional period next week, and it would not hurt the Government to allow the normal period of adjourn,ment of the debate until next Tuesday. Whatever the Opposition's attitude to the Bill may be, its members have the right to discuss the measure at a party meeting. The Govern,ment would claim the same right if it were in the pOSition of the Opposition. I suggest that the debate be adjourned until next Tuesday.

l\'lr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-1 would not deprive the Labor Party of the opportunity,

2072 Theatres (Performance of [ASSEMBLY.] Sacred Works) Bill.

pleasure and inestimable advantages of discussing this Bill at its next party meeting. 1 am agreeable to the debate being adjourned until next Tuesday.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, .December 2.

THEATRES (PERFORMANCE OF SACRED WORKS) BILL.

Mr. MANSON {Minister of State Development) .-1 move-

That this Bill be now read a second time. This is a short Bill to amend the Theatres Act 1958 to enable a concert, play, drama or opera of a sacred nature for which a charge for admission is made to be held in a licensed theatre on a Christmas Day or GO'od Friday with the permission of the Chief Secretary.

Under the provIsIons of the Theatres Act 1958 every interlude, tragedy, opera, comedy, stage play, farce, burletta, melodrama, pantomime, stage dancing, tumbling or horsemanship or any other entertainment of the stage must be held in a licensed theatre.

By virtue of section 7 of the Theatres Act, the Chief Secretary is empowered to cancel or suspend the licence of any theatre in which any of those entertainments is held on a Christmas Day or Good Friday. Subject to the issue of a speoial permit the section permits the holding on Christmas Day or Good Friday of any public concert, reading, lecture, recitation or :musical entertainment for which nO' charge for admission is made, but specifically prohibits the holding of such an entertainment for which a charge is made. In the case of a sacred concert, the section goes still further and prohibits a collection being made.

A request has been received from the Australian Elizabethan Theatre Trust for permission to present a sacred opera on Good Friday of next year and to charge fO'r admission. I am informed by the Trust that the

opera is one of several to be performed next year by the English Opera Group at the Adelaide Festival of Arts and will be presented by the Trust in Melbourne, Canberra and Sydney with the sponsorship of the Australian Council for the Arts. The operas have deep religious significance.

As the Theatres Act stands such permission cannot be granted. This Bill will enable the Chief Secretary to issue a special permit authorizing the holding of a concert, play, drama or opera of a sacred nature in a licensed theatre and enabling a charge to be made for admission to that entertainment. The per;mit may be issued, subject to such terms and conditions as the Minister may see fit, and the fee for the permit will be such as may be prescribed, but not exceeding $20.

The Bill relieves any person conducting such entertainment, in accordance with the special permit, from any liability to a penalty under the Theatres Act and any other Act or law for the conduct of such entertainment on Chris·mas Day or Good Friday. I commend the Bill to the House and trust it will have a speedy passage.

On the motion of IVir. WILKES (Northcote), the debate was adjourned.

, It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, December 2.

HOUSING (URBAN RENEWAL) BILL.

The House went into Committee for the further consideration of this Bill.

Discussion was resumed of clause 2, amending the portion of the Table in section 1 of the principal Act relating to Part III.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-This Bill is being resisted by the Opposition. Clause 2 is relatively unimportant. The Opposition is also concerned about the growing public unrest at

Housing (Urban [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Renewal) Bill. 2073

the unsuitable nature ·of inner suburban development. The question is whether it should be remedied by the provisions of this or another Bill or in some other way. I do not propose to speak further to this clause, but shall do so on clause 7, which the Opposition will oppose.


Clause 7, providing, inter aliaAfter section 75 of the principal Act there

shall be inserted the following heading and sections:-

DIVISION 3.-URBAN RENEWAL. 75A.

(4) Notice in writing of the preparation by the Commission of any urban renewal proposal shall be given by ,the Commission to-

(a) every public authority affected or likely to be affected by the proposal;

(b) every corporation company firm or person making or supplying under any Act gas or electricity for lighting heating motive power or other purposes and disposing thereof for valuable consideration within the area affected by the proposal; and

( c) The National Trust of Australia (Vic.) .

75H.

(2) The Urban Renewal Advisory Committee shall consist of-

(b) four persons appointed by the Governor in Council on the recommendation of the Minister of whom-

(iii) one shall be a female having special knowledge and experience in sociology; and

Mr. MEAGHER . (Minister of Housing) .-1 move-

That, in paragraph (b) of sub-section (4) of proposed new section 75A, the word " and" where last occurring be omitted with the view of inserting the expression-

"and (d) the Victorian Council of Social

Service ". The amendment was agreed to. Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of

Housing) .-1 move-That, in sub-paragraph (iii) of paragraph

(b) of sub-section (2) of proposed new section 75H, the word "sociology" be

omitted with the view of inserting the words "the administration and planning of social welfare fl.

The purpose of the two amendments is to add to the list of people who must be notified by the Commission when it draws up any proposals for urban renewal.

The Victorian Counoil of Social Services is interested in any renewal proposal relating to the needs of the people who are going to live in that area. I was approached by the Council and asked whether I would make available to it information concerning any proposals for urban renewal. I agreed that this should be done. The Council also informed me that "sociology" in its strict sense is purely an academic science and in relation to the Urban Renewal Advisory Committee it recommended that the term should be widened to enable the appOintment of a person who had some experience in the administration of social work in these areas. The amendment which has already been agreed to and this amendment carry out this intention.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-The Opposition does not object to the amendment, but will oppose the clause as a whole.

The amendment was agreed to. Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick

West) .-Members of my party oppose this clause for reasons which have previously been stated. Since this Bill was last before Parliament, a symposium entitled "An Inquiry into Planned Urban Renewal" was held at the University of Melbourne. It was opened by the Minister of Housing. It will be recalled that the honorable gentleman took me to task when I suggested that· he should hold his horses until the inquiry which had been requested by the Minister for Local Government was held. I should have thought that what transpired at the symposium bears out what I said. In the Age of Monday, 24th November, the Moinister was reported as having said-

The Housing Commission has been the (urban renewal) authority for 30 years.

2074 Housing (Urban [ASSEMBLY.] Renewal) Bill.

I did not think the Minister was anxious to concede the point. He now has a change of heart; he has some love for the public and the authorities. The honorable gentleman was also reported as saying-

Its operation had been based on the narrow conception of clearing slums.

As I understood the position, when this Bill was last considered, the honorable member for Oakleigh said that it dealt with slum clearance and that a Bill of a similar name dealt with commercial urban renewal development. I have no doubt that such a learned young member would have been in the know, and that this was the precise nature of the two Bills. The Age reported that the Minister went on to say-

All cities had run-down areas where owners could not afford to maintain or renew their properties.

That is quite true. When I spoke to this Bill during the second-reading debate, I said that some factories have been established for 100 years. Is the State to renew the factories which the owners have permitted to fall into a state of disrepair, or is it to demolish only homes? The Age report continues-

Mr. Meagher was opening a one-day symposium, titled "An Inquiry into Planned Urban Renewal to, at Melbourne University on Saturday.

He told the symposium that legislation had been introduced to ensure that in future everyone-including the public-would be consulted before the Commission moved into an area.

Does the Minister suggest that, although the Comm,ission has had this power for more than 30 years, it has not moved into an area such as Richmond without consulting the council or the people, or did the Commission with its bulldozers simply move into an area and mow down the houses? If the Commission is now prepared to consult the authorities it should have been prepared to do so during the past 30 years. This is why many people have lost faith in the Housing Commission. They know how it has behaved "in the past and

Mr. Turnbull.

how it has moved into certain areas without consulting the local councils. The Minister admits that this has been the situation. The people of Victoria are not prepared to allow it. Perhaps they will trust the Minister, who is a lovable man, but th.ey. will not trust the Housing CommISSIOn.

I was taken to task by the Minister when .r suggested that the Government should wait until at least June because it may not then be in office. Mr. Len. Tierney, of the Department of Social Studies at the University of Melbourne, told the symposium that there was a serious lack of information about what low-income families needed~and wanted-in a housing scheme. The issue centres around these people. They are forced to live in areas such as these because probably the houses were cheaper-and by their appearance, they should be. They .are close to where these people work. Mr. Tierney suggested that we should find out what these people want, and that this cannot be done overnight. I do not know how many acres of slums there are in Melbourne, but a figure of 5,000 acres has been suggested.

Mr. ROSSITER.-Surely the Labor Party wants to eliminate slums?

Mr. TURNBULL.----Of course it does; slums are to be found even in Brighton. The senior lecturer in architecture and town planning at the Adelaide University, Mr. Harry Parsons, told the symposium that he had great reservations about present forms of urban renewal as a significant cure for any defined urban disease or problem. That is the statement of an expert. That is another reason why a preliminary inquiry should be held to ascertain what the nature of this Bill should be. The Minister of Housing and the Housing Commission then rushed into the picture to say that there should be no real inquiry into the heart of the problem. Mr. Parsons then said-

Present technology suggested it might be better to build new areas rather than rebuild and patch existing areas-especially if speed and economy were the goals.


He asked: "Is it wor-th renewing something which is rapidly becoming obsolete?Why are the present locations and decaYI?g plant so valuable that the~ ~ust be !llamtained? And, in view of theIr mconvemence, ugliness and discomfort, are the present cities worth keeping?"

Mr. Mike Jones of the Urban Research Unit of the Australian National University said-

Many inner city suburbs were occupied by differing nationality groups-Austr.ahaI?-s and others-who did not want to hve.m Housing Commission flats in either the CIty or suburbs.

Rehousing these people could only succeed if they were offered family housing which kept their group intact. In a recent debate, in my humble way I suggested that many pe~ple who lived in these areas were entitled to a small dignified home instead of being forced to live in these high-rise flats which decorate housing around the City of Melbourne today wherever one looks, whether it is to the west, east, or north.

Mr. ROSSITER.-Tell us about the Labor Party's policy on slums.

Mr. TURNBULL.-It is crystal cle.ar that they should go. Mr. Jones then suggested-

That housing authorities should examine repairing of existing homes, by way !If longterm, low-interest loans f?r repaIrs and maintenance, as a more sUltable approach to urban renewal than block redevelopment. That is one of the ways in which this p~oblem can be attacked. Sub-section (2) of proposed new section 75A provides, inter alia-

The Commission may consider that an area requires re-planning and renewal on all or any of the following grounds, namely:-

(a) The unsafe, insanitary, inadequate, or overcrowded conditions of the dwellings therein or of the area;

These are considerations which the Commission must take into account in deciding what should be an urban renewal area. I have no idea what standards are to be adopted to deal with unsafe or insanitary conditions. Sub-section (2) further provides-

(b) The bad arrange~ent or narrowness of streets therem;

(c) The bad arrangement or defective design or construction of buildings therein;

(d) Any adverse effect on ,the ,area caused by the construction or recon'struction of roads or of other works or facilities.

Apparently the Housing Commission, in its unfettered way, makes all these decisions without regard to standards of any kind. Sub-section (3) of proposed new section 75A states, inter alia-

Before submitting any recommendation to the Minister under sub-section (1) the Commission shall-

(a) give notice to the Town and ~ou:ntr,Y Planning Board of the Commlsslo.n s intention to make such recommendatlOn describing shortly the object of the recommendation; One would have thought that the Commission would enter into a most detailed discussion with the Town and Country Planning Board. The Commission would not only consult the Board through the Minister but would also debate any suggestions made by the Board. Paragraph (b) of sub-section (3) goes on to state that the Commission shall-consult with the council of every mu:nicipality in the muniCipal district of WhICh any part of the proposed urban rene.wal area is situate or with any representatIves of the council duly appointed by the council for that purpose. The Commission has not shown haste in the past to consult with councils. For example, it went to the Richmond City Council with a "stand and deliver" attitude. Paragraph (c) of sub-section (3) states that the Commission shall-consult with the responsible authorities in the area or with the representatives of any such responsible authority duly appointed by the authority for that purpose. No doubt that would refer to the Railway Department and similar authorities.

Mr. MEAGHER.-The honorable member should read the definition clause.

Mr. TURNBULL.-I have read it. Paragraph (d) of sub-section (3) states that the Commission shallconsider any objections m~de to the ~ommission by any such councIl or authOrIty. The Commission has had this sort of power for 30 years. Will it behave in future as it has in the past?


1 refer now to the proposed new section 75B of the principal Act, which provides, inter alia-

( 1 ) In the preparation of an urban renewal proposal the Commission shall have regard-

(a) to any planning scheme in force in the urban renewal area. Does that mean that the Commission shall comply with any planning scheme?

Mr. MEAGHER.--Of course it does. Mr. TURNBULL.-The sub-section

continues, stating that the Commission shall also have regard-

(b) ,to the necessity or otherwise of preserving any particular environment existing within the area and in particular ,the need to preserve areas or buildings of historical or architectural interest. Again, there is no criteria prescribed to determine what shall be preserved. Up to the present the Commission has shown that it is incapable of making the decisions. The Opposition proposes to vote against clause 7 of the Bill.

Mr. MEAGHER (M1inister of Housing) .-1 recall reading some years ago a book written by Eric Linklater, in which he described the activities of a Government official in ancient China. This official was famous for his wisdom, the basis of which was that people who do things sometimes 'make mistakes. Therefore, if the official did absolutely nothing he would be safe from criticism. This appears to be somewhat akin to the attitude of the honorable member for Brunswick West who has stated, obstensibly in discussing clause 7 of the Bill, that the Government should handle the problem envisaged by this clause by sitting down and doing nothing about it until such time as the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works produces a report spelling out in detail something which is not dealt with in the Bill.

It was only in the last few moments of his speech that the honorable member said anything about the contents of the Bill, and more particularly anything about the contents of clause 7. The honorable member stated that

he was not prepared to vote for the Bill, and espeCially clause 7, because the Housing Commission already had the powers which were proposed in the Bill. He has completely overlooked the obvious fact that this measure gives the Housing Commission no additional powers whatever. However, the Bill imposes upon the Commission many additional obligations which are entirely in line with the matters which the honorable member contended were the principles upon which he based his opposition to the Bill. He has informed the Committee that the Government should have regard to the social aspects of what is proposed to be done, and that in the past the Housing Commission has not had sufficient regard to the needs of the people who are to live in the accommodation provided. Then, with the sort of devastating logic one expects from the honorable member, he rejected the clause in the Bill which insists that the Housing Commission must have such regard. The honorable member informed the Committee that the solutions to all these problems could not be ascertained overnight, with a complete lack of any knowledge of history. He asks the Committee to believe that, by waiting for six months, it will then have all the answers; but, of course, that is absurd.

The honorable member for Brunswick West made a first-class speech in favour of the clause and then told the Committee that he intended to oppose it. He even quoted with approval statements from the Age newspaper and suggested that the Commission was intending to discard valuable property in order to start again. He said, "Let us build new areas outside the metropolis JJ, which is more or less the same argument. He says that nothing should be done about areas that have become run down, and that the Government should ignore the sort of problem raised by the lady who recently wrote to me complaining that she was living in such appalling accommodation that her baby had been bitten by rats.


Mr. TURNBULL.-The honorable gentleman has ignored it for fifteen years.

Mr. MEAGHER.-The honorable member overlooks the fact that I have not occupied this portfolio for fifteen years. If I had, I might have had time to make some impression on the honorable member. I shall now refer to some of the points he raised. Firstly, sub-section (2) of the proposed new section 75A provides that the Housing Commission, before it approaches the Minister for permission to consider an area, must satisfy itself that there are certain disabilities in that area which warrant its being treated as run down. What was the honorable member's reaction? The clause states that the area must be unsafe, insanitary, inadequate, have a bad arrangement or narrowness of streets, or defective design or construction of buildings, and the honorable member asked, " What are the criteria for this? What constitutes a street which is too narrow?" Is he una ware that a street 60 feet wide in a certain location might be adequate, but in another area a street 200 feet wide may be inadequate? Can the honorable member explain how legislation can lay down in mathematical terms what should be an adequate or inadequate street? He is talking nonsense.

The honorable member then makes a completely unwarranted assumption that if some of these conditions are satisfied, the Commission, in seeking Ministerial permission to proceed, makes final decisions on the issue. It does nothing of the sort. It has to reach the conclusion that some of these conditions are present before it even dares to look at an area with a view to having it declared. The honorable member for Brunswick W~st al.leges that extra powers are bemg gIven to the Commission, but an additional 'Obligation is being placed on the Commission to ensure that in doing its job it does so in the interests of the community.

The honorable member made the astounding statement that the Commission has not shown any great haste

in co~sulting the Richmond City CounCIl. I shall refer to the history ?f this matter. Eighteen months ago, III accordance with the Housing Act, the Commission wrote to the Richmond City Council stating that it was contemplating declaring a slum reclama tion area in Richmond and, in accordance with the Act, asked the Council to confer with it as to the desirability or otherwise of declaring that area. With the sort of statesmanship that one would expect from the Council, it referred the letter to the Caucus, and the Caucus then referred the letter to the Council. The Council did not decline to confer with the Housing Commission-it merely failed to do so, and this made it impossible for the Commission to proceed under the Housing Act. After eighteen months of that sort of nonsense, the honorable member for Brunswick w,est has the audacity to tell the CommIttee that the Housing Commission has not shown any haste in consulting the Richmond City Council. Only a few weeks ago I suggested to the Commission that it should inform the Council of section 106 of the Housing Act, which states-

(1) Where the exercise of any powers or, t~e discharge of any duties by the CommISSIon may affect the exercise of any powers or the discharge of any duties by any ,C;;ov~rnment department or by any mUnIcIpalIty or by the State Electricity Comm~ssion, o,f Victoria or by any local authOrIty wIthm the meaning of the Public Contracts Act 1958 the Commission shall so fa,r as practicable confer and co-operate W!t~ such ~ep,artment municipality ElectncIty CommIssIon or authority,

(2) Any question difference or dispute arising or about to arise between the Commission and any such department municipaJi.ty Electricity Commission or local authority with ,respect to the exercise of any powers or the discharge of any duties by eith~r or both of ,them may be finally and conclUSIvely determmed by the Governor in Council.

It was only at that stage that the Richmond City Council agreed to talk to the Commission. While dealing with Richmond, I shall quote from the Richmond Voice-a paper published in that City-of Thursday, 20th November, 1969. The author of the article is Anthea Eyres. Under the


heading, "Redevelopment-Richmond -is Changing", and the subheading, cc People's Rights", Anthea Eyres wrote-

Are we asking for too carefully planned redevelopment? Is it too much to ask .that the rights and needs of ordinary people be taken into account? That new schools, shops, recreation areas and other community facilities be built along with new housing? That the authorities consult local communities when making plans for redevelopment. That the people be allowed to participate in the planning that vitally affects their lives and the lives of future generations?

We are not asking too much.

I completely agree with Anthea Eyres. What is regrettable from her point of view is that the member representing Richmond in this Parliament is leading the opposition to a Bill which does everything the article suggests. What does the honorable member for Brunswick West say about the measure?

He says that his party opposes the Bill because it gives the Housing Commission additional powers which, in fact, it has had for 30 years, and which, in any case, it has been misusing, and that, in any case, he does not trust the Housing Commission. I doubt whether the honorable member trusts himself.

A comment in the Herald of the 21st November is even more extraordinary than those made by the Opposition. In an article which is headed, cc Bill 'May Grow a Planned Jungle' ", the Herald town hall reporter, Mr. Tony Hill, begins by saying that the Melbourne City Council will protest " in the strongest possible terms" against the' Bill. He then quotes none other than Sir Bernard Evans, chairman of the Council Town Planning Committee. I imagine that Sir Bernard would admit that he knows something about town planning. In the article, Sir Bernard is quoted as saying-

Even parts of Toorak could be declared urban renewal areas. Is Sir Bernard Evans saying that Toorak qualifies as unsafe, insanitary, inadequate or overcrowded? Does he suggest that there exists such

a bad arrangement of housing that Toorak should be declared a redevelopment area? Is he saying of the area in which he lives that the houses are defective-in other words, that they are pretty slums?

Mr. WILTON.-Is he an investor?

Mr. MEAGHER.-I do not know, but obviously he is not well aware of what this Bill contains. As a matter of fact, I rang Sir Bernard Evans and told him that he had made a very forthright statement about the Bill and asked him whether he had read it. He told me that he had not read it yet, and I suspect that also applies to the honorable member for Brunswick West. Sir Bernard is also quoted as saying-

All councils could be ridden over roughshod by the Housing Commission and its adv:isory committees.

Yet, at no less than three separate stages, the Housing Commission is prevented from taking any action at all without first consulting the councils concerned. If Sir Bernard Evans and the honorable Imember for Brunswick West are equally well informed, it ,is no wonder that we have the sort of illogical opposition to a good measure which we are witnessing in this Chamber. I shall not attempt to traverse in detail all the other illogicalities and absurdities of the Opposition's case, but I want to put the matter into perspective. Clause 7 clearly and unequivocally tells the Housing Commission that, whenever it wants to enter an area, it must act in precisely the same responsible manner as any private developer would have to act.

Mr. CLAREY.-The Commission does not show any responsibility at all; you know what has been done in North Melbourne.

Mr. MEAGHER.-Earlier today, the honorable member for Melbourne complained about a certain gentleman who is not a member of this Parliament.


Mr. CLAREY.-He is an endorsed Liberal party candidate for the coming elections, and the Minister gave him information which he would not give to me.

Mr. MEAGHER.-Whatever he is, he showed more initiative than the honorable member for Melbourne. Under this Bill, the Commission is directed to go through certain processes before it even prepares proposals for an area. The first thing it must do is to satisfy the Minister that there are certain disabilities in an area which warrant its being treated as an ur.ban renewal area-not as a slum reclamation area, for the very good reason that slum recla.mation is far too narrow a concept for the 1970s. Slum reclamation is merely a matter of getting rid of a slum and putting something else in its place.

If the honorable member for Brunswick West had been with me at the seminar on Saturday, he would know that I pointed out that merely to replace a run-down building with a new building was tantamount to building antiques all over the place and that, unless whatever authO'rity was empowered to repair or restore slum areas had recourse to the best possible advice it could get from all quarters, it could not do an adequate job. Accordingly, this Bill instructs the Commission that it will take advice from every possible source before it attempts to' do these things.

The Bill then provides that the Commission 'may be permitted to draw up proposals for an area, but only after the Minister of Housing has conferred with the Minister for Local Government on the matter. The Housing Commission will previously have informed the Local Government Department that it is interested in a particular area. These requirements provide another couple of checks. These things having been done, and the two Ministers having agreed that the area needs some sort of attention, the Commission is merely per.mitted to make recommen-

dations to the town planning authority on how it should be treated. It can do no more than advance proposals. It is the town planning authority-contrary to what has been suggested dn propaganda, from all kinds of sources-which says "Yes" or "No" to' the proposals.

However, before it even obtains per1mission to submit proposals to the town planning authority, the Commission is compelled to publish them, to make them available, and to advertise in the areas concerned the fact that they are available. These conditions meet the requirements of the Richmond Association for the participation of the people most affected, those who live in the area.

The Bill has been criticized for making it possible for the people affected to object to the Commission about its plans. This criticism completely ignores the fact that there is no person and no other organization to which these people can possibly object at that stage. All the Commission then has is a tentative plan. Why should the Commission not receive the advice of the people who live in the area? Why should it not be required to listen to them?

Mr. CLAREY.-The Commission never listens to them; it did not listen in North Melbourne.

Mr. MEAGHER.-For the benefit of the honorable member for Melbourne" I point out that if the Commission fails to listen to these people, they have a right to appeal to the Minister, and why should they not have that? Why should the people concerned not have the right to expect that the Commission will do what the Bill requires, that is, advise all Departments and other instrumentalities concerned what it has in mind for the area SO

that those Departments and instrumentalities may be induced or, in fact, ordered by the Government of the day to co-ordinate their activities with those of the Commission? That will bring about something else advocated by the Richmond Association but rejected by the honorable


member for Richmond-the construction of schools, kindergartens, shopping facilities, and so on, simultaneously with the renewal of the housing in the area. Tha t is precisely what the Bill provides for.

However, in the words of the honorable member for Brunswick West, the Opposition asserts that the Commission is bulldozer happy, that it rushes in and mows down areas with bulldozers, destroying everything in sight. According to the honorable member the Commission should be forced to go back to that sort of thing, and not advance to a more constructive approach. It should not consult the people concerned, the other authorities, the councils, the town planners, and even those supplying electricity and other facilities. None of these things should be done and under no circumstances should the Commission be directed to do them for, the Opposition suggests, the present narrow provisions of the Act should be left as they are. They simply provide that if the Commission can persuade its Minister-and nobody else-that an area should be declared to be a slum reclamation area, it can make the declaration. As the honorable member for Geelong suggests, the Opposition wants these conditions to continue.

There is not much more for me to say. I believe the attitude of the Opposition to be completely and utterly irresponsible. Time after time, members of the Oppositionand the honorable member for Melbourne in particular-have complained to me that the Commission has acted arbitrarily, that it is destroying amenities in various areas, and that it is not giving adequate replacement value for what it destroys.

The honorable member made a great fuss about Happy Valley, North Melbourne. I have heard his usual raucous interjections concerning the failure of the Housing Commission to provide adequately for the people of North 'Melbourne, the failure to consult the local ,members and the failure

to do the things that should be done in those areas. However, when I bring down a measure which is designed to force the Com'mission to do all the things concerning which the honorable member complains and to ensure that, before the Commission can even obtain permission to move into an area, adequate planning must take place including not only the mere replacement of slum houses with new dwellings but also the provision of the ancillary facilities that go with such housing, the Opposition adopts the attitude that it does not want anything to do with the Bill. It says, in effect, "Let us adjourn the debate for six months or six years ".

IMr. FLOYD.-Why did you not bring in the Bill earlier?

Mr. MEAGHER.-I wish I had been able to bring it in earlier, but unfortunately I was unable to do so. I hope that if and when the Housing Commission commences a project in Williamstown, it will do so not in accordance with the principles in the existing legislation but in compliance with the principles laid down in this Bill. The honorable member for Williamstown will be well served if the Com'm1ission does that. I also remind the honorable member that I do not believe for a moment that he is one of those who would say, "Let these slum areas remain. Let us sit down and do nothing about it. Let us wait and see". That is not the honorable member's style.

Apparently, the Opposition is determined to destroy this progressive legislation. T warn the Opposition that, if it does so, it alone ,must accept the responsibility. By its attitude, the Opposition is endeavouring to ensure that the Housing Commission's approach to slum reclamation is based on the narrow concepts of 30 years ago instead of those of today. I leave the Opposition with its own conscience on this matter.

Mr. MOSS (Leader of the Country Party) .-Honorable members have just witnessed one of the best stonewalling efforts in this Chamber for


the past twenty years. An extraordinary situation has developed. The Minister of IHousing complained about the Opposition's attitude towards this Bill and even gave the Country Party a mention or two. But whatever difficulties the ,Minister may have in getting this Bill passed by this Committee will fall into insignificance when ,compared with his difficulty in having it ·accepted by Cabinet. The IMinister has been successful in arousing further confusion in the minds of honorable members. It is .of no use the honorable gentleman s'quealing and squirming about what has taken place in this Chamber. A great deal of doubt has been aroused in the ·minds of, the people, including the editor of the Richmond Times and ISir Bernard Evans.

If the Government had listened to the Country Party in the first place and after introducing the measure had held it over until the next sessional period, much of the confusion that now exists would have been avoided. It is obvious to those who are keenly interested in the question of urban renewal tha t honorable members need more time in order to do justice to the proposals contained in this Bill. We have heard a good deal about Richmond in the course of the debate, but the ,Minister has said nothing concerning the development of the country areas of Victoria.

iMr. IMEAGHER.-Where are the slums in the country?

Mr. ,MOSS.-The Committee is debating the redevelopment of certain areas. It is true that there has been no mention of development in the country in this respect. The Country Party is not prepared to let this Bill pass at this stage. tIt is all very well for the Government to use its numbers in this Chamber to have the measure passed. We have submitted a reasonable case concerning this Bill and another similar Bill, and we have emphasized the controversy that exists in Government circles concerning these measures. It is a

reasonable suggestion, even at this late stage, that the debate on this Bill should be adjourned so that honorable members will be able to view it in better light than at the present time.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-The Minister of Housing suggested that I was adopting some of the views expressed at the University of IMelbourne on this question. I was simply pointing out that divergent views and approaches have been adopted in relation to it. This supports my view that the debate on this Bill should be adjourned until the ,Melbourne and :Metropolitan Board of Works completes the inquiry which has been ordered by the Minister for Local Government. According to the Board, the inquiry will not be completed until June of next year.

OpposiNon members believe in the redevelopment of the inner suburbs of . Melbourne. iMy colleague, the honorable member for Richmond, and T have already stated this. The Minister stated that he had been attempting to have discussions with the Richm.ond City Council for the past eighteen months. IMy recollection is that the honorable gentleman was endeavouring to obtain consent from the Richmond Council to put up an a,mount of approximately $300,000 so that the Commission would undertake certain work. The Minister attacke,d the Leader of the Opposition, who is with the Premier at present. It behoves me to state briefly what my Leader said. During the second-reading debate, my Leader stated, as reported at page 1753 of Hansard of 18th Nove'mber-

If all the Opposition was asked to do was to concede to the Housing Commission the powers which are necessary to enable it to fulfil its primary function of building lowcost homes and acting. as a slum clearance authority more effectively and more adequately than it now does, there would be no objection from this side of the House.

Earlier, my Leader had stated-One has only to look at the proposed

legislation .to understand the problems that confront the Parliament. There has never

2082 .Housing (Urban [ASSEMBLY. ] Renewal) Bill.

been a Government in the history of Victoria that has talked about urban renewal, proposed two Bills with two almost contradictory sets of philosophies and two contradicting authorities, and a set of procedures relevant to the two Bills which are contradictory.

Later in the debate, the Leader of the Opposition stated-

The problem that arises in this legislation is that the Minister of Housing and his supporters in the Cabinet have confused the two functions of slum demolition and urban renewal. The Minister for Local Government believes that the proper authority to develop urban renewal proposals is the structure which he proposes to create under the Urban Renewal Bill.

At page 1754 of Hansard, my Leader is repDrted as having stated-

The position now is that there are two Bills before Parliament containing two philosophies which emanate fro~ the Cabinet. It must be a novel doctrme of constitutional responsibility that there can be two Bills with two philosophies and two concepts tossed into Parliament and then left to the Opposition and the Country Party to sor.t out. The Minister of Housing hopes the final outcome will be that Par~iament will resolve the problems underlymg the proposals contained in this Bill and also ,the problems associated with the future leadership of the Liberal Party.

Mr. WILCOX (M.inister of Transport) .-1 raise a point of order. 1 do not mind very much what the honorable member for Brunswick West is saying, but I think it is unfortunate if, in this Com'mittee, honorable members read lengthy extracts from Hansard. 1 understand the honorable member for Brunswick West is reading the report of a speech fro·m ~n earlier stage 'Of the same debate III the same session of Parliament. I am not greatly interested in the subjectmatter but, if the time of this Committee is to be wasted by a repetition of speeches from an earlier stage of the debate, .J submit it is in contravention of the Standing Orders.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. J. D. MacDonald).-Standing Order No. 88 states-

No member shall read from a printed newspaper or book the report of any spe.ech made in Parliament during the same seSSIOn, unless such report refer .to the debate then proceeding.

I ask the honorable member for Brunswick West, who is known for the fact that he quotes continually, to shorten his remarks.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-Very well, Mr. Chairman. Unfortunately, the Leader of the Opposition is not present in the Chamber. The Minister of Housing has made an attaok on my Leader and 'I feel that the only fair manner of answering him is for me to quote my Leader's comments. However, 1 have ,concluded the remarks that I proposed to make.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-Briefly, I wish to reply to the honorable member for Brunswick West, who has endeavoured to pull the wool over the eyes of honorable members by quoting what the Leader of the OppDsition said during the second-reading debate because his Leader was not present in the Chamber.

IMr. ROSSITER.-He said that his Leader was with the Premier, but the Premier has now entered the Chamber.

Mr. MEAGHER.-Obviously, the Leader of the OpPDsition is no longer with the Premier. The honorable member for Brunswick West relied upon a long-winded quotation of something which was said recently by the Leader of the Opposition to the effect that here were two Bills expressing contradictory philosophies. 1 again draw attention to the extraordinary mental approach by an Opposition which can see contradictory philosophies in two Bills which are almost identically worded, which deal with the same problem, and which apply the same procedures to two different areas.

I remind the Committee that the Bill now being debated instructs the Housing Commission, in carrying out the functions given to it by this Parliament over the past 30 years, to ensure that it will carry out its tasks with tiue regard to the best possible advice it can obtain from all quarters.

Housing (Urban [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Renewal) Bill. 2083·

Another Bill which is to be debated in this Chamber provides the same conditions as apply to any other body which by some chance might become involved in urban renewal. If there is a contradiction in philosophy between these two approaches, I can only say that it takes the mysterious processes of the mind and the thoughts which emanate from the Opposition to see it.

Mr. WILKEs.-What would happen if both Bills were passed?

Mr. MEAGHER.-The Housing Commission would be doing all of the things that the Opposition has been demanding of it for a long time, and doing them much more adequately. The other Bill would amend the Town and Country Planning Act to ensure that it coincided with this.

The Bills are not contradictory. The concepts involved are not different; both Bills deal with the same problem, and the Urban Renewal Bill complements in a differ'ent area the basic purpose of the Bill now under discussion. The Opposition is apparently incapable of realizing that the two Bills are virtually identical, just as it is incapable of seeing that, if we are to tackle the enormous problem of accommodating the huge increase in population which this city will sustain in the next 30 years or so, it will become increasingly and urgently necessary to have the utmost co-ordination of every Government Department, every private developer and indeed of every citizen in the building of a city fit to live in. Unless we have this degree of co-ordina tion and participation by everyone concerned, we shall have such chaos that it will destroy not only the city but also our civilization.

I assure the Committee that the Opposition is simply playing politics concerning this proposed legislation. I believe that if it looked at this measure honestly, and took the trouble to attempt to understand what it contains, it would be bound by its own philosophy to support the

Bill. Instead of that, in respect of the very areas which its members represent and which are the subject of this attempt to see that something better will be done in the future than has been done in the past, the Opposition is opposing this improved approach.

The attitude of the Country Party was typified by its Leader, whose only complaint was that when I was speaking about slum reclamation I did not mention country areas. I invite the honorable member to define for me those country areas which he believes to be slums. When he does, I shall be happy to discuss the matter with him. In this legislation we are talking of the redevelopment of rundown areas. If the Country Party believes that areas which its members represent are run down, so be it; perhaps the electors of the area should do something. about their representation. I am prepared at any time to listen to any member of the Country Party who believes that there is a run-down area in his electorate which should be redeveloped by the Housing Commission. If a member of that party can prove that it is so run down that it needs attention, I shall approve of the Housing Commission doing it, and I hope that the Commission would be able to do it according to the constructive approach that is laid down in this Bill.

If, however, members of the Country Party believe that they have run-down areas, and also believe that· they and their local. councils are capable of dealing with those areas, then provision is made in the second of these Bills for them to do so; in addition, there is provision in this Bill, which they intend to reject, for the Housing Commission to enter into agreements with the councils to assist in the process; however, the country does not want this assistance.

I trust that the people of Victoria will appreciate the action taken by Opposition members-if they carry


out their threats-in putting back indefinitely a much more constructive approach to the very serious problem of urban renewal.

The Committee divided on the clause, as amended (Mr. J. D. MacDonald in the chair)-

Ayes 39

Noes 25

Majority for the clause, as amended 14

AyES.

Mr. Balfour Mr. Billing Mr. Birrell Sir Henry Bolte Mr. Borthwick Mr. Darcy Mr. Dixon Mr. Dunstan Mr. Evans

(Ballaarat North) Mrs. Goble Mr. Hayes Mr. Jona Mr. Loxton Sir William McDonald Mr. McKellar Mr. Manson Mr. Meagher Mr. Porter Mr. Rafferty Mr. Reese Mr. Reid Mr. Rossiter

Mr. Scanlan Mr. Smith

(Bellarine) Mr. Smith

( Warrnambool) Mr. Stephen Mr. Stokes Mr. Suggett Mr. Tanner Sir Edgar Tanner Mr. Taylor Mr. Templeton Mr. Trethewey Mr. Vale Mr. Wheeler Mr. Wilcox Mr. Wiltshire.

Tellers: Mr. Doyle Mr. McLaren.

NOES.

Mr. Broad Mr. Buckley Mr. Clarey Mr. Cochrane Mr. Edmunds Mr. Evans

(Gippsland East) Mr. Fennessy Mr. Lovegrove Mr. McDonald

(Rodney') Mr. Mitchell Mr. Moss Mr. Mutton Mr. Phelan

Mr. Ring Mr. Ross-Edwards Mr. Simmonds Mr. Stoneham Mr. Sutton Mr. Trezise Mr. Turnbull Mr. Whiting Mr. Wilkes Mr. Wilton.

Tellers: Mr. Divers Mr. Ginifer.

PAIRS.

Sir John Bloomfield Sir Arthur Rylah

I Sir Herbert Hyland Mr. Holding.

Clause 8 was agreed to. Mr. Meagher.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-1 propose the following new clause to follow clause 4:-

AA. (1) Section 22 of the principal Act is hereby amended as follows:-

(a) After paragraph (c) of sub-section ( 1) there shall be inserted the following paragraph:-"(ca) purchase or acquire any

leasehold estate in land;": (b) At the end of paragraph (e) of sub

section (1) there shall be inserted the following paragraph:-

(c)

(d)

(e)

" or (iii) any land in respect of which

the Commission has a leasehold estate for a term of not less than 55 years from the commencement of the erection or construction of the house street or drain in question and in calculating the term of any leasehold estate in land for the purposes of this paragraph the Commission shall be deemed to hold a leasehold estate in the land for any term in respect of which it has a valid unexpired option to renew its leasehold estate.";

In paragraph (g) of sub-section (1) for the words " the same are vested in" there shall be substituted the words "the land is vested in or leased to";

For sub-section (3A) there shall be substituted the following subsection:-

"(3A) Notwithstanding anything ,to the contrary in any Act any municipality or public statutory corporation may-

(a) make any donation or gift of real or personal property to the Commission for the purposes of this Act; or

(b) lease or sublet to the Commission at such rent (if any) or on such terms and conditions as it thinks fit any land;

(c) enter into an agreement with the Commission for or with respect to the use development upkeep or maintenance of any such property or land; and

(d) may apply any of its funds for or in connexion with the carrying out of any such agr.eement.";

In sub-section (4) for the words "in order to give such land" there shall be substituted the words "in order to give or lease such land".


(2) For section 29 of the principal Act there shall be substituted the following section:-

"29. The Commission may. subject to this Part-

(a) in accordance with the provisions of Division 2, let or lease any land on which is erected a house; or

(b) in accordance WIth the provisions of Division 3, sell any land which is vested in fee simple in the Commission and upon which a house has been erected by the Commission."

Recently, the honorable member for Williamstown suggested to me that some municipalities could not afford the capital cost of land on which the Housing Commission could erect flats for lone persons and pensioners. The honorable member asked me to consider whether it would be possible for the Commission to lease land for this purpose. Upon investigation, I found that this was not only possible but was probably very desirable. The proposed new clause will enable the Commission to enter into agreements with mnuicipal councils and individual persons to take long leases on land on which to erect houses. At the moment the Commission can erect dwellings only on land for which it holds the freehold. I believe that this amendment will enable pensioner flats to be made more readily available. It will also assist in the general renewal of all areas because it will be possible for the Commission to use leasehold land rather than incur heavy capital costs on land purchases, thus enabling more houses to be built. I therefore commend the amendment to the Committee and hope that it may induce the Opposition thoroughly to examine the measure.

Mr. WILTSHIRE.-Can the Minister indicate what minimum period of lease he has in mind?

Mr. MEAGHER.-Under the amendment, the minimum lease will be 55 years, which covers the period of amortization of a loan.

The new dause w·as agreed to. The Bill was reported to the House

with amendments, and the amendments were adopted.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-1 move -

That this Bill be now read a third time. The House divided on the motion

(the Hon. Vernon Christie in the chair)-

Ayes 39 Noes 25

Majority for the motion 14

AYES.

Mr. Balfour Mr. Billing Mr. Birrell Mr. Borthwick Mr. Darcy Mr. Dixon Mr. Dunstan Mr. Evans

(Ballaarat North) Mrs; Goble Mr. Hayes Mr. Jona Mr. Loxton Mr. MacDonald

(Glen Iris) Sir William McDonald Mr. McLaren Mr. Manson Mr. Meagher Mr. Porter Mr. Rafferty Mr. Reese Mr. Reid

Mr. Rossiter Mr. Scanlan Mr. Smith


( Warrnambool) Mr. Stephen Mr. Stokes Mr. Suggett Mr. Tanner Sir Edgar Tanner Mr. Taylor Mr. Templeton Mr. Trethewey Mr. Vale Mr. Whe2!ler Mr. Wilcox Mr. Wiltshire.

Tellers:

Mr. Doyle Mr. McKellar.

NOES.

Mr. Broad Mr. Buckley Mr. Clarey Mr. Cochrane Mr. Divers Mr. Edmunds Mr. Evans

(Gippsland East) Mr. Fennessy Mr. Ginifer Mr. Lovegrove Mr. Mitchell Mr. Moss Mr. Mutton Mr. Phelan

Mr. Ring Mr. Ross-Edwards Mr. Simmonds Mr. Stoneham Mr. Sutton Mr. Turnbull Mr. Whiting Mr. Wilkes Mr. Wilton.

Tellers:

Mr. McDonald (Rodney)

Mr. Trezise. PAIRS.

Sir John Bloomfield I Sir Herbert Hyland Sir Henry Bolte Mr. Floyd Sir Arthur Rylah Mr. Holding.

The Bill was read a third time.

URBAN RENEWAL BILL. The debate (adjourned from

October 29) on the motion of Mr. Meagher (Minister of Housing) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

2086 . Housing· (Urban [ASSEMBLY.] Renewal) Bill .

. Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). -When the Housing (Urban Renewal) Bill was before the House, as the Opposition suggested that it would be difficult to debate that Bill without referring to the Urban Renewal Bill, you, Mr. Speaker, agreed that honorable members could debate both Bills at the same time. During the second-reading debate on the previous measure, I stated that under that Bill it was proposed to set up the Housing Commission as an urban renewal authority whereas under the Bill now before the House "renewal agency" means a municipal council or any public authority other than the Housing Commission. I stated previously that ther~ was a contest between two Ministers, both of whom wanted to deal with the same subject-matter. I also quoted a press statement by the Minister for Local Government indicating that he had directed the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works to investigate and report upon urban renewal.

The report will probably not be available until about June next year, and members of the Opposition suggested that, in any event, consideration of the Bill should be deferred until the report was presented. The contention was borne out to some extent at a symposium which the Minister attended at the University of Melbourne. Many experts from both Melbourne and Adelaide advanced various views, and one speaker asked whether the preservation of old properties was worth while. Other speakers supported the view that I put to the House previously, that there should be a delay to enable an inquiry to be made, so that Parliament might consider the subject adequately. Members of the Oppositon still contend that both Bills should be shelved until the report to which I have referred is available or until the Government makes up its mind whether it prefers the Housing (Urban Renewal) Bill or the Urban Renewal Bill.

I do not propose to go over all the ground which the Leader of the Opposition and I traversed when discussing

the Housing (Urban Renewal) Bill, under which the Housing Commission will be the urban renewal authority. Under this Bill, the Government seeks to set up a procedure for a municipal council or another authority to prepare an interim urban renewal proposal. It should be common ground that it is not desirable to have two authorities attempting to enter the same field. There would be confusion if the Housing Commission desired to redevelop an inner suburban area and at the same time the local municipal council wished to do so. Members of the Opposition invite the Government to take the Bill away and to make up its mind whether it prefers this Bill or the Housing (U rban Renewal) Bill.

The Minister contended that members of the Opposition did not believe in urban renewal. I wish to State the Opposition's views, briefly. Legislation dec,tling with urban renewal should cover the establishment of standards concerning density, rehabilitation, and so on, and planning for the balanced provision of amenities and facilities, especially open space, recreation areas, schools, playgrounds, shopping areas, kindergartens, clinics, and so on. It should also cover the use of urban renewal to meet the needs of various social, cultural and ethnic groups in the community, and provide a clear definition of the areas which must be preserved for their aesthetic, architectural or historic value. It should also provide for an assessment of the present or potential capacity of the services in each area-:--water, power, gas, sewerage, drainage and transport-and the capacity of the road network.

This measure would meet most of those requirements, but which Bill does the Government favour? Members of the Opposition propose to vote against this Bill, as we did against the third reading of the Urban Renewal Bill. Due to an oversight, we did not call for a division on the


previous measure at the secondreading stage, but indicated our disapproval of it by doing so at the third-reading stage. We oppose the second reading of this measure.

Mr. MOSS (Leader of the Country Party) .-Members of the Country Party adopt a similar attitude to this Bill as they did to the Housing (Urban Renewal) Bill. Further considera tion should be given to the proposals. Possibly there is greater merit in this Bill than in the Housing (Urban Renewal) Bill, but we believe honorable members should have time in which to consider the ramifications of the proposed legislation. There is also a strong feeling in our party that the activities of the Housing Commission should come within the scope of this Bill, from which it is specifically exempted. Members of the Country Party consider that the exemption should be removed.

One point I wish to make-I hope it will not happen if the Bill is passed -is that, where it is known that certain activities may take place, there is a grave likelihood of a sort of dead hand being placed over an area with a consequent reduction in values. In 1960, a first-mortgage valuation was made in the City of Melbourne where some proposed planning by the Melbourne City Council was envisaged and stated to be proposed adjacent to the property. The 1960 valuation was slightly in excess of $100,000. A second valuation made in 1967 was $75,000-$25,000 less than in 1960. These valuations were carried out by eminent valuers.

The result indicated that there was a dead hand over the area, with a consequent reduction in valuations. This actually happened, and I consider that, so far as possible, any proposal for redevelopment with all its ramifications should in no way impede the valuation that may be made of adjacent properties or properties actually involved in a particular proposal.

A similar situation exists when an announcement is made of a land settlement scheme. I am referring not to the Little Desert, but to freehold properties. The Government may announce that it intends to acquire a certain area of freehold land for intense culture. As a result, a dead hand is placed over the area, and it is a question of getting the best deal from one buyer. This is a real situation which has been envisaged by certain leading people in the City of Melbourne. Representations have been made to me by one person in a leading city in the country, pointing out this fact and expressing the hope that any action taken under this Bill, if it is passed, should not have this effect. In the short time at our disposal to examine this measure, members of the Country Party consider that it has a good deal to commend it, but we have decided that we have not sufficient time in which to assess its value. Therefore, under the circumstances we have no option but to vote against it if the Government decides to proceed with it in this sessional period.

The House divided on the motion (the Hon. Vernon Christie in the cHair)-

Ayes 38 Noes 24

Majority for the motion 14 AYES.

Mr. Balfour Mr. Billing Mr. Birrell Mr. Borthwick Mr. Darcy Mr. Dixon Mr. Dunstan Mr. Evans

(Ballaardt North) Mrs. Goble Mr. Hayes Mr. Jona Mr. Loxton Mr. MacDonald

. (Glen Iris) Sir William McDonald Mr. McLaren Mr. Meagher Mr. Porter Mr. Rafferty Mr. Reese Mr. Reid Mr. Rossiter

Mr. Scanlan Mr. Smith


( Warmambool) Mr. Stephen Mr. Stokes Mr. Suggett Mr. Tanner Sir Edgar Tanner Mr. Taylor Mr. Templeton Mr. Trethewey Mr. Vale Mr. Wheeler Mr. Wilcox Mr. Wiltshire.

Tellers:

Mr. Doyle Mr. McKellar.

2088 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Adjournment.

NOES.

Mr. Broad Mr. Buckley Mr. Clarey Mr. Cochrane Mr. Divers Mr. Edmunds Mr. Evans

(Gippsland East) Mr. Fennessy Mr. Ginifer Mr. Lovegrove Mr. Mitchell Mr. Moss Mr. Mutton

Mr. Phelan Mr. Ring Mr. Ross-Edwards Mr. Simmonds Mr. Sutton Mr. Turnbull Mr. Whiting Mr. Wilkes Mr. Wilton.

Tellers: Mr. McDonald

(Rodney) Mr. Trezise.

PAIRS.

Sir John Bloomfield I Sir Herbert Hyland Sir Henry Bolte Mr. Floyd Mr. Manson Mr. Stoneham Sir Arthur Rylah Mr. Holding. .

The House went into Committee for the consideration of this Bill.



TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (COMPENSATION) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Council and, on the motion of Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works), was read a first time.

ADJOURNMENT. EDUCATION DEPARTMENT: HURST-

BRIDGE HIGH SCHOOL.-DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE: PUBLICATION OF BOOKLET Tree Fruit Pest Control.-PARLIAMENT HOUSE: CAR PARKING.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-1 move-

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until tomorrow, at Two o'clock.


Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-1 move-

That the House do now adjourn. Mr. STOKES (Evelyn).-I want to

refer to two matters in connexion with the Hurstbridge High School, and I address my complaints to the Assistant Minister of Education in the hope that he will be able to alleviate the problems involved. I received a letter dated 11th November, 1969, from Mrs. Doris Laidlay,

the honorary secretary of the Parents and Friends Association of the Hurstbridge High School, pointing out that when I visited the School in October I had stated that I was concerned at the state of the access road to the School. Mrs. Laidlay went on to say that children had to wait after school to board buses and to do this they had to travel for more than 70 yards alongside a railway line and then had to wait on the roadway in danger from traffic and without protection from the weather. The road is narrow and Mrs. Laidlaw is of the opinion that an access road should be built to the School on which $500,000 of Government money has been spent. At present 400 students attend the School and the rate of increase in attendance is 100 a year. Negotiations for this road to be built were taken up with the Education Department in February, 1968, and the Railway Department has offered an easement along the road for a track to be built. Some months ago, the Education Department said that this work would be put in hand, but so .far no progress has been made.

My second complaint also relates to the Hurstbridge High School and refers particularly to accommodation. The School was opened in 1966 and now has a student population of 400. It will be 500 next year. I received a letter from Mr. F. W. Nankervis, the president of the advisory council of the School.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! Is the honorable member raising a new subject?

Mr. STOKES.-There are two complaints from the one school. Mr. Nankervis is concerned about accommodation and at the apparent lack of planning by the Government to provide adequate facilities for the secondary education of children in the area. The Education Department was warned that additional accommodation would be needed by the beginning of 1970, and several letters have been written and extra accommodation has been promised, but so

Adjournment. [25 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Adjournment. 2089

far nothing has been done. The School has also made application to the Department for an assembly hall. About three months ago the Department advised the School that it would erect temporary class-rooms, but stated that these class-rooms could not be provided for an indefinite period. The advisory council is of the opinion, which II share, that it would be sound and economic for the Department to build the assembly hall now and use it by erecting partitions as extra class-rooms, and when the money is available for class-rooms the assembly hall can be used for its normal purpose. I think that is a sound and sensible suggestion and I trust the Assistant Minister of Education will do what he can to ensure that this reasonable request from the Hurstbridge High School is agreed to.

Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Shepparton) .-1 bring to the notice of the Minister representing the Minister of Agriculture the delay in the publication of the booklet Tree Fruit Pest Control 1969-70. The contents of this booklet were given to the Government Printer by the Department of Agriculture last May, but it has not yet been printed. To be of real use to the orchardists in the Goulburn Valley area the booklet should have been produced in July, but I understand that it will not be produced until December. This is a fantastic and serious state of affairs because orchardists depend on this worth-while publication to obtain information for pest control, and it is still not published. A considerable amount of money must be spent in the publication and printing of this booklet and if it is not available for the fruit season a shocking waste of Government money will have occurred. This matter should be examined by the Minister as a matter of urgency. Perhaps one way to look at it would be to prepare the booklet before May, but that would be retrograde step because such a publication must be kept up to date. Surely material prepared in May could be published in July. No private

organization handles its publications in this manner; if it did so, it would soon be out of business. If there is a delay of six months in producing urgent publications, I wonder what delays are associated with documents that are not urgent. I ask the Minister concerned to inquire into this matter with a view to improving the existing situation at the Government Printing Office.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-Mr. Speaker, I think the matter I propose to raise comes under your jurisdiction. I refer to the parking of cars both at the rear and in front of Parliament House. Some years ago, before you were elected to your present position, honorable members of this House received instructions concerning the parking of their cars on either side of the front steps or at the rear of this building. These instructions seem to be no longer observed. Recently, signs bearing the words "authorized parking only" have been placed in the parking areas on each side of the front steps of Parliament House, and this appears to have improved the position, although not to any great extent.

As the member for Melbourne, I have often had occasion to come to Parliament House at times outside the hours at which other honorable members normally visit this place. On some Sundays, I have found 15 or 20 cars parked at the back of Parliament House. On other occasions, I have come here in the morning, as I did today at 9.30 a.m., and found it difficult to obtain a parking place for my car. There were many cars parked in the yard, not one in three of which had a sticker affixed to it. I have seen people get out of cars in the back of Parliament House and walk straight to a tram; on other occasions, they have alighted from a tram and gone to their cars. At other times, I have seen people with children get out of cars and go away. I would like some instruction given to members concerning their rights and informing them what is authorized for official parking.

2090 Adjournment. [COUNCIL.] Education Department.

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-1 will draw the remarks of the honorable member for Shepparton to the attention of my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture. In defence of the Government Printer, 1 point out that he is hardly in the same position as an ordinary publisher because he must cope with the rush of work that is necessary to keep pace with this House in the production of Bills, Hansar-d, and various Parliamentary papers. It is a little unfair to compare the Government Printer with an ordinary publisher.

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The honorable member for Evelyn raised three matters regarding the Hurstbridge High School. First, he referred to the access road, which concerns the Railway Department, the Education Department and the local municipality. I shall direct the attention of these authorities to the question. I am concerned with the figures quoted by the honorable member concerning the enrolments of pupils for this year and the estima ted increase in enrolments for next year. I shall certainly direct this matter to the attention of the accommodation committee, which is meeting at present with a view to providing accommodation for the beginning of the school year in 1970.

With regard to the assembly hall and the honorable member's suggestion, I cannot see that this could be regarded as a matter of policy because it would cut right across the practices of the Education Department in class-room procedures and also of the Public Works Department in the matter of the priorities given to school buildings. However, with my greatest sympathy, I shall direct the honorable member's remarks to the notice of the Minister of Education.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-In answer to the honorable member for Melbourne, this Parliament has had a century-old disability on the matter of parking of vehicles on the front steps. Believe

it or not, it is in the course of being remedied. Cars parked in the back area on a Sunday would probably belong to members of the Public Service Symphony Orchestra. An arrangement was entered into many years ago that when this Orchestra was playing in the country on behalf of the State in its various activities, members may park their cars safely in the Parliament House yard. I will see that the honorable member for Melbourne is brought up to date with the comings and goings and very great difficulties of keeping ahead of the ever-present parking problem around the House.

The motion was agreed to. ThE! House adjourned at 11.1 p.m.

1llrgl!llntlnr (!tunnell. Wednesday, November 26, 1969.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett) took the chair at 2.52 p.m., and read the prayer.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. SCHOOLS IN MELBOURNE WEST PRO

VINCE: PORTABLE CLASS-ROOMS. The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Mel

bourne West Province) asked the Minister of Education-

What State primary and secondary schools, respectively, within the Melbourne West Province will be allocated portable class-rooms for the 1970 school year?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answer is-

The Department does not, at this time, have records listing schools in provinces. If the honorable member will name the schools he is particularly interested in, the. required information will be provided if avaIlable.

A survey of the portable class-room requirements at all schools throughout the State for February, 1970, is nearing completion. It is expected that this information will be available in approximately two weeks.

Education Department. [26 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Railway Department. 2091

EXFORD STATE SCHOOL:

ACCOMMODATION.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister of Education-

Will a portable class-room be allocated to the Exford State School, No. 3423, for the 1970 school year; if not, why?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answer is-

No. The expected enrolment of 28 for February, 1970, does not warrant a second class-room.

It is intended however, to replace the existing structure with a new class-room. This work will form part of a district bulk contract to be advertised later this financial year.

TEACHERS' COLLEGES.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) asked the Minister of Education-

(a) Does he agree that Victoria urgently needs four teachers' colleges to meet immediate needs?

(b) When is it expected that tenders will be called fo.r the building of the La Trobe University Secondary Teachers College and primary teachers' colleges at Dandenong, St. Albans, and in the Latrobe Valley, respectively?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answers are-

The general plan for the allocation of capital moneys for teachers' colleges is still under consideration. A final decision will not be made until the Commonwealth Government announces the total amount of funds it will be allocating to Victoria for this purpose.

PROPOSED TECHNICAL SCHOOL AT LEONGATHA.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Education-

(a) Will he lay on the table of the Library all files relating to the proposed technical school at Leongatha?

(b) How much is it estimated the timelimit clause in the contract has added to the tender price received for the construction of the school?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The ans1wer is-

The Minister of Public Works advises that the file is in constant use and it is not considered practicable to lay it on the table of the Library at present. Urgent action js being taken to re-examine the scheme, and when this is completed new tenders for the carrying out of the work will be invited as soon as possible.

MENTAL HEALTH AUTHORITY. MENTALLY RETARDED CENTRES:

FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Health-

Will the Government give urgent financial assistance to enable centres for the mentally retarded to meet their desperate financial obligations, thereby enabling them to plan their immediate and necessary programmes?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-The answer is-

An announcement concerning subsidies to be paid to day centres for the mentally retarded will be made at an early date.

HOSPITALS AND CHARITIES COMMISSION.

MORWELL HOSPITAL.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Health-

Will he lay on the table of the Library all files relating to the hospital at Morwell?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-The files will be placed on the table of the Library as requested.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. PASSENGERS TRAVELLING WITHOUT

TICKETS: CONVICTIONS.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

How many people were convicted of the offence of travelling without tickets on suburban railways from 1st October, 1968, to 30th September, 1969?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answer is, cc 2,577 ".

2092 Crime. [COUNCIL.] Department of Health.

CRIME. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH.

INCIDENCE OF RECONVICTIONS. PRE-SCHOOL CENTRES AND KINDERGARTENS: FEES.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) asked the Minister of Health-

How many persons, who have served prison sentences for crimes listed on page 1 of the Major Crime Index of the Victoria Police Statistical Review of Crime, have been re-convicted for a major crime within the past five years, giving the number in each classification of the Index?

Which pre-school centres or kindergartens in Victoria found it necessary to increase fees during the past three years, stating the amount in each case?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answer is-

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-As the answer is in statistical form, I suggest that, by leave of the 'House, it be incorporated in Hansard without my reading it.

Leave was granted, and the answer was as follows:-The information requested in not available,

as statistics of this nature are not kept.

If the honorable member contacts the Chief Secretary or the DirectorGeneral of Social Welfare on specific matters on which he wishes to obtain information, I am sure that some satisfactory arrangement can be made to assist him.

Committees of pre-school centres are responsible for raising funds to meet the cost of such centres not covered by State subsidy.

No record of these fund-raising activities is kept in the Department of Health.

However, the list of play centres to which I referred in my answer to a question asked on the 12th November, 1969, is now available and is as follows:-

LIST OF PLAY CENTRES WITH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUBSIDY AND SALARY ENTITLEMENT (ANNUALLY).

Municipality.

Shire of Alexandra City of Altona

Shire of Arapiles Shire of Ararat Shire of A von .. City of Ballaarat City of Ballaarat City of Ballaarat Shire of Ballarat Shire of Barrabool City of Bendigo City of Bendigo Shire of Berwick Shire of Berwick Shire of Berwick Shire of Berwick Shire of Berwick Shire of Berwick Shire of Berwick Shire of Birchip City of Box Hill City of Brighton City of Brighton City of Brighton

City of Brighton

Centre.

Alexandra and District, Bayley-street .. Altona West, Presbyterian Church Hall, 231 Civic-parade,

Altona West Natirnuk, Lutheran Church Hall, Main-street .. Willaura and District, Main-street Stratford, St. Andrew's Sunday School Hall, Jones-street Alexandra Toddlers' Home, 183 Scotts-parade, Ballarat Mt. Pleasant, 826 Laurie-street, Ballarat Youth Centre, Eastwood-street, Ballarat Wendouree West, Presbyterian, 8 Hazel-street .. Anglesea, McMillan-street White Hills, Public Hall, Calder Highway St. Luke's Toddlers' Home, Napier-street, White Hills Bunyip, Pearson-street Doveton, Autumn-place Doveton North, Agonis-street Garfield, Cnr., Main-street, and lona-road Gernbrook, Main-road Nar Nar Goon, Main-street .. Upper Beaconsfield, McBride-road Birchip, Cumming-avenue Surrey Hills Baptist, 277 Elgar-road, Box Hill Male-street, Cnr., Male and Byron-streets, Brighton St. Peter's, Church of England Hall, Were-street, Brighton Brighton Hebrew Congregation, 138 Marriage-road, East

Brighton Brighton Pre-School Centre, St. Leonard's Presbyterian

Hall, Cnr. New-street, and Wolseley-grove

Amount of difference between

subsidy and salary

entitlement (annually).

$ 718.50 796.80

130.80 463.85 561.90 662.65 718.50 483.60 718.50 327.00 875.10 405.30 193.44 350.04

1,358.70 136.20 145.08 243.18 437.55 40.53

1,750.20 561.90 397.59 875.10

478.08

Department [26 NOVEMBER, 1969.] of Health.

LIST OF PLAY CENTRES WITH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUBSIDY AND SALARY ENTITLEMENT {ANNUALLY).-continued.

Municipality.

City of Brighton City of Broadmeadows ..

City of Broadmeadows .. City of Brunswick City of Brunswick Shire of Buln Buln Shire of Buln Buln City of Camberwell

City of Camberwell

City of Caulfield

Shire of Charlton

Shire of Cranbourne Shire of Cranbourne Shire of Cranbourne Shire of Cranbourne Shire of Cranbourne Shire of Cranbourne Shire of Creswick Shire of Diamond Valley Shire of Dimboola Shire of Donald Shire of Doncaster and

Templestowe Shire of Dunmunkle Borough of Eaglehawk .. Shire of Flinders Shire of Flinders Shire of Flinders Shire of Flinders City of Footscray

City of Footscray City of Footscray City of Geelong

City of Geelong West Shire of Gisborne Shire of Gisborne Shire of Gordon Shire of Gordon City of Hamilton City of Hamilton Shire of Hastings Shire of Hastings Shire of Hastings Shire of Hastings City of Hawthorn Shire of Healesville City of Heildelberg Shire of Heytesbury Shire of Heytesbury Shire of Kaniva

Shire of Kerang City of Kew .. City of Knox ..

Sess:on 1969.-76

Centre.

St. Luke's, 396 Bay-street, Brighton .. Strathmore Presbyterian, Cnr. Uplands-roads, The

Crossway St. Michael's, Church of England Hall, Camp-road Brunswick, 1 Glenlyon-road .. East Brunswick, 320 Lygon-street Longwarry, Main-road, Longwarry Mary Beck, East-road, Neerim South Salvation Army Girls' Home, 11 Brinsley-road, East

Camberwell Grey Sisters' Mother and Child Care Centre, 6 Mont

Albert-road, Canterbury Murrumbeena Pre-School Centre, St. Peter's Hall, Ames

avenue Charlton and District Pre-School Centre, Armstrong-

street Bayles, Public Hall, Bayles-road Carrum Downs, Williams-road Koo-Wee-Rup, 356 Rossiter-road Lang Lang, Whitstable-street Pearcedale, Pearcedale-road .. Tooradin, South Gippsland Highway .. Creswick, Victoria-street .. Watsonia, Methodist Church Hall, Devonshire-road Rainbow, Taverner-street Donald, Houston-street Templestowe, Memorial Hall, Anderson-street ..

Minyip, 29 Main-street Eaglehawk, 14 Bright-street .. Dromana, Pier-street .. Flinders, Presbyterian Church Hall, Bass-street Red Hill, Main-road . . .'. St. Mary's School for the Deaf, "Delgany", Port sea " Bay View-road, Methodist Church Hall, Montague-street,

Yarraville Clare-street, 30 Clare-street, Yarraville .. South Kingsville, Cnr. BruneI and Paxton streets Bethany Babies' Home, Cnr. Ballarat-road, and Gibbs-

street, Geelong North Geelong West, O'Connell-street, (F.K.U.) Gisborne, Fisher-street . . . . Pan kina, Victoria-street, Macedon Boort, Godfrey-street . . . . Pyramid Hill, R.S.L. Hall, Victoria-street Church Hall, 8 Clarke-street, Hamilton Patterson Park, Haig-street, Hamilton Balnarring, Flinders-road . . . . . . H.M.A.S. Cerberus, Flinders Naval Depot, Crib Point Hastings, Marine-parade . . . . . . Somerville, Hastings-road . . . . . . . . Kildonan Admission Centre, 149 Victoria-road, Hawthorn Yarra Glen, Anzac-avenue .... Macleod, Community Centre, Birdwood-avenue Cobden, Victoria-street . . . . . . Timboon, St, Jude's Church of England Hall.. " Serviceton, Victorian Railways Institute Hall, Elizabeth-

street Kerang, Scoresby-street . . . . St. Anthony's Home, 43 Wellington-street Alexander Magit Memorial Toddler Group, I.W.C.

Harwell-road, Fern Tree Gully

2093


subsidy and salary


$ 875.10 561.90

796.80

} 207.72 228.90 530.12 662.65

662.65

662.65

327.00

350.04 875.10 483.60 327.00 505.71 168.57 662.65 168.57 130.80 483.60 561.90

405.30 327.00 483.60 98.10

228.90 1,764.00

280.95

662.65 662.65 662.65

483.60 405.30 405.30 327.00 327.00 875.10 875.10 875.10 327.00 875.10 327.00 662.65 196.20 640.20 640.20 662.65 232.53

561.90 1,325.30

151.53

2094 Department [COUNCIL.] of Health.

LIST OF PLAY CENTRES (WITH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUBSIDY AND SALARY ENTITLEMENT (ANNUALLy).-continued.

Municipality.

City of Knox .. Shire of Korumburra Shire of Korumburra Shire of Lillydale City of Malvern City of Malvern

City of Melbourne

City of Melbourne

City of Melbourne

City of Melbourne City of Melbourne

City of Melbourne Shire of Metcalfe Borough of Moe City of Mordialloc Shire of Mount Rouse Shire of Newham and

Woodend City of Newtown Shire of Numurkah Shire of Omeo .. Shire of Phillip Island .. City of Prahran Shire of Ripon Shire of Romsey

Shire of Rosedale Shire of R utherglen .. Borough of Sebastopol ..

Shire of Sherbrooke Shire of Sherbrook(? .. Shire of South Barwon .. Shire of South Gippsland City of South Melbourne City of Springvale City of Springvale City of Sunshine City of Sunshine Shire of Swan Hill

City of Swan Hill Shire of Tambo

Shire of Upper Yarra Shire of Violet Town Shire of Walpeup Shire of Wannon Shire of Waranga City of Warrnambool

Shire of Winchelsea

Shire of Woorayl Town of Yalloum

Centre.

Bena Angliss, Quarry-road, Fern Tree Gully Loch, I.W.e. Smith-street Poowong, I.W.e. Main-street Wandin North, Union-road .. . . Lloyd Street Baptist, Lloyd-street, East Malvern Malvern Baptist P.S. Centre, Cnr. Tooronga-road, and

Claremont-avenue, East Malvern Berry Street Babies' Home and Hospital, 1 Berry-street,

East Melbourne Hopetoun, Cnr. Racecourse-road, and Victoria-street,

Flemington Lady Huntingfield, Cnr. Harris and Lothian streets,

North Melbourne South Kensington, Altona-street, (Field House) Spastic Centre, Royal Children's Hospital, Flemington-

road, Parkville Kensington Presbyterian, 19 Robertson-street .. Harcourt, Methodist Church Hall, Buckley-street Moe, Cnr. Moore and Hennessy streets East Beaumaris, 60 Wells-road Glenthompson, Henry-street .. Woodend, Forest-street

C'hilwell, Bond-street, Chilwell (F.K.U.) .. Strathmerton, Methodist Hall, Murray Valley Highway Swifts Creek, Om eo Highway .. Phillip Island, Thompson-avenue, Cowes . . . . Methodist Babies' Home, 12 Copelen-street, South Yarra Skipton, Presbyterian Church Hall, Montgomery-street .. St. Paul's Church of England, Church of England Hall,

Main-street, Romsey Rosedale, St. Andrew's Hall, Queen-street Rutherglen, Park-drive .. Nazareth Boys' House Pre-School Play Centre, Grant-

street, Sebastopol Belgrave Heights, Union Church Hall, Belgrave Sassafras, Main-road Barwon Heads, Clifford-parade Welshpool, Main-street Albert Park Pre-School, 18 Dundas-place Noble Park, Buckley-street .. Parkfield, Ellendale-road, Noble Park Deer Park, Station-street .. North Maidstone, Cnr. Mitchell and Desmond streets .. Nyah West and District, Methodist Church Hall, Frederick-

street John Knox, Curlewis-street, Swan Hill Lakes Entrance, Presbyterian Chw·ch Hall, Mechanics-

street Yarra Junction, Main-road .. Violet Town, Hyacinth-street Underbool, Public Hall Coleraine and District, Henty-street Murchison, R.S.L. Hall, Robinson-street .. Dennington and District, St. Andrew's Church of England

Hall, Drummond-street Helen M. Kininmonth Pre-School, Presbyterian Sunday

School Hall, Hesse-street, Winchelsea Meeniyan, Whitelaw-street Yallourn, Cnr. Broadway and Uplands-road ..


subsidy and salary


$ 262.53 196.20 261.60 525.06 640.20 327.00

875.10

796.80

327.00

483.60 875.10

875.10 561.90 875.10

1,476.15 98.10

294.30

662.65 162.12 196.20 637.44 875.10 130.80 405.30

640.20 294.30

1,116.90

612.57 697.59 596.39 261.60 875.10 875.10 697.59 875.10 483.60 875.10

557.76 875.10

561.90 196.20 98.10

875.10 130.80 327.00

662.65

875.10 483.60

The Constitution Act Amendment [26 NOVEMBER, 1969.] (Conjoint Elections) Bill 2095

THE CONSTITUTION ACT AMENDMENT (CONJOINT

ELECTIONS) BILL.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-1 move-


Although this is a brief measure, it is a most important one, for it deals with that vital subject-the holding of the 1970 Victorian Parliamentary elections. To appreciate its full import, some explanation of the background to the Bill is necessary. Firstly, the six-year period of membership of the Legislative Council members elected in 1964 will expire on 26th June, 1970, and ordinarily the consequent election would be held on Saturday, 27th June, 1970. Secondly, there is the next election for the Legislative Assembly. Section 101 of The Constitution Act Amendment Act 1958 states that each Assembly shall exist and continue for three years from the day of the first meeting thereof and no longer. The first meeting of the current Assembly was held on the 16th May, 1967, and, if it runs its full course, writs for the next Assembly election must issue before the 16th May, 1970. .

In 1961, this Parliament inserted certain sections into The Constitution Act Amendment Act 1958, under which a general election for the Legislative Assembly could be held conjointly on the same day and using the same staff and buildings as a triennial election for the Legislative Council. A special provision limited the application of these sections to a conjoint election held before the 1 st August, 1961. This provision was amended in 1964 and 1967 and, in consequence, the Legislative Council triennial elections and Legislative Assembly general elections in 1961, 1964 and 1967 were held conjointly, thus resulting in a total saving of more than $600,000 to the taxpayers. Clause 2 of the Bill applies these dormant sections to a conjoint election held before the 1st July, 1970, thus permiiting the 1970 Assembly

and Council elections to be held simultaneously, and thereby saving another $250,000.

I shall now deal with the second aspect of the Bill. Honorable members are no doubt aware that while the date of holding an Assembly election is variable and may be held at any time that Parliament or the Government of the day decides, the time of holding the triennial elections, by precedent anyway, is regarded as comparatively stable, such elections always being held on, or as soon as possible after, the anniversary of the day of election of the members concerned.

In 1966, The Constitution Act Amendment Act was amended so that the 1967 triennial elections could be held up to three months in advance of the normally accepted polling day conjointly with an Assembly general election. As a result, the triennial elections were held on the 29th April, 1967, instead of the 15th July, 1967, the anniversary date. This legislation also introduced a permanent provision into section 71 of The Constitution Act Amendment Act 1958, protecting the rights of members elected at a prerna turely held Legisla tive Council triennial election, while another clause, now re-enacted as section 7 of the Parliamentary Salaries and Superannuation Act 1968, dealt with the salaries and pension rights, &c., of such members.

Clause 3 of the present Bill is similar in scope to the 1966 Act and, to enable a conjoint election to be held, will permit the 1970 triennial elections to be held up to three months before the anniversary date of 27th June, 1970. Pursuant to section 149 of The Constitution Act Amendment Act 1958, the President, if he is of the opinion that it is desirable that a conjoint election should be held, may consent to the Governor issuiJ?g the writs for the periodical election of the Council.

2096 Marketing of Primary [COUNCIL.] Products (Amendment) Bill.

Therefore, the Bill provides for the preservation of not only the existing rights of the President of the Legislative Council, but also those of the members retiring in June, 1970. Although the Legislative Council elections may be held up to three months earlier than the normal due date, members elected thereat will begin their term of office as on and from the 27th June, 1970, and pensions, allowances, &c., will operate similarly. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD (Doutta Galla Province), the debate was adjourned.


MARKETING OF PRIMARY PRODUCTS (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from November 19) on the motion of the Hon. G. L. Chandler (Minister of Agriculture) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. ARCHmALD TODD (Melbourne West Province).-Among the various boards and institutions, none has given more trouble to the Minister of Agriculture than the Tobacco Leaf Marketing Board, so far as the appointment of members is concerned. The inability of tobacco growers to resolve certain questions rests at the base of this problem. From time to time attempts have been made to elect a Tobacco Leaf Marketing Board. However, largely because disgruntled persons have taken legal action, polls that have been held for the election of members to the Board have been declared invalid On the ground of the ineligibility of persons who voted. The Bill represents an attempt by the Department of Agriculture to resolve the dilemma in which it has found itself for a considerable time.

The Bill seeks to define a producer. Honorable members can understand the difficulties that have arisen in the

tobacco industry because of the multitude of share farmers who take part in it and because of the involvement of so many brothers, uncles, cousins and other relatives in the production of tobacco leaf. This measure has been presented to Parliament after a long delay and some burning of the midnight oil by the Parliamentary Draftsman in an endeavour to produce something that will be satisfactory to all parties concerned. Members of the Labor Party, who have given consideration to the Bill, believe that it goes a long way towards achieving what is desired in the industry. Therefore we do not propose to offer objection to the passage of the measure.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province) .-This Bill deals with all marketing boards that come under the Marketing of Primary Products Act. As Mr. Todd stated, certain problems have been encountered with the Tobacco Leaf Marketing Board and this has highlighted some of the deficiencies in the legislation. For example, it was found that the old interpretation of " producer" in the Act did not stand up to close legal scrutiny. The Minister of Agriculture is confronted with many problems. In his secondreading speech, the honorable gentleman stated that 3 or 4 polls would be conducted in 1970, and immediate action is therefore necessary to amend the Act to remedy the existing legal difficulties.

It has been said that there are more bush lawyers in the tobacco industry than in any other industry. This situation is probably responsible for many problems arising concerning the original interpretation of a producer. When the responsible authorities have endeavoured to draw up a roll under the interpretation as it has been amended from time to time, some real legal difficulties have been encountered. I believe the Minister and his Department have brought forward a Bill which should be adequate to embrace all those industries that might like to come under

Marketing of Primary [26 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Products (Amendment) Bill. 2097

the Marketing of Primary Products Act. Certainly, regulations will be required for each commodity covered by the Act and to cover the principles which will enable the various industries to fit into the ambit of the legislation.

The ,Minister has indicated that the requisite regulations will be prepared and that any further amendments considered necessary to various sections of the principal Act will be introduced. With that in mind, the Country Party supports the Bill, believing that it represents the best possible attempt to produce terms and conditions under which a person shall be eligible to vote at a poll for the election of members to a marketing board. The Bill sets out in detail what is proposed, but further amending provisions, together with regulations, will be necessary to ensure that the roll of producers to be drawn up will not be exploited as has been the case in the past.

The other important matter contained in this Bill is that starting and finishing times 'are laid down for the next Board to be elected for the tobacco industry. This has been a difficulty. A Bill was recently passed through Parliament but it could not be proclaimed because the Board could not be elected. The present measure provides for a starting time of the 1 st November inlstead of the 21st April. This ensures that the change-over fr.om the manager now carrying out the functions of the industry to the new Board will take place on the 21st November, which is after the completion of the selling season and the commencement of the next production year. This is the correct time. The Country Party supp.orts the measure. I wi1sh the Minister of Agriculture every success and T hope this Bill will meet with the appr.oval of all persons engaged in the tobacco industry.

The motion w'as agreed to.



Clause 2, providing .for inteq>retation.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister ,of Agriculture) .-1 thank Mr. Todd, Mr. Swinburne and Mr. Bradbury for their co-operation in relation to this difficult Bill. Behind the discussions is a welcome sign that the industry is on the way back. Mr. Swinburne represents a tobacco growing area and has been closely associated with the tobacco industry over the years. I .offer him my wholehearted co-operation and that of the Department ,of Agriculture in an endeavour to bring about a Isituation which will be of great value to the industry in the years ahead.

This Bill is the result of discussions that have taken place behind the scenes, primarily to overcome the difficulty of the interpret'ation of " producer" for the purposes of voting at poll'S and the signing of petitions. It is designed to bring about a better relationship than has existed for many years. This is a first step and, as I have previously indicated, I intend to have further discussions with representatives of the tobacco industry in an endeavour to have a special provision inserted into the principal Aot to deal with this special industry.


The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its remaining Istages.

LEGAL AID BILL. The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister

for Local Government) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

One of the most important a1spects of our com'munity life is to ensure that people get justice, through the provision of legal aid for people of limited means. The effect of this Bill is to amend and consolidate in one

2098 Legal Aid [COUNCIL.] Bill.

measure the provisions of the Poor Persons Legal Assistance Act 1958 and the Legal Aid Act 1961.

Honorable membel1s will be aware that for many years the State has provided legal aid through the Public Solicitor's Office in both criminal and civil cases, by virtue of the Poor Persons Leg.al Assistance Act. The Public Solicitor'ls Office was established in 1928. Over the years it has b.eenconcemed with the representatIon of persons on trial for indictable offences and also of parties in civil and divorce proceedings in the Supreme Court, civil actions in the County Court and proceedings before the Workers Compensation Board. The service provided by the Public ~olicitor's Office was 'supplemented In 1964 by the scheme voluntarily established by members of the legal profession under the Leg.al Aid Act 1961 and administered by the Legal Aid Committee.

About three years ago, the Legal Aid Committee drew attention to the overlapping between its work and that of the Public Solicitor, and suggested that the obvious division of responsibilty would be for the Public Solicitor to provide legal aid in criminal matters and for the Legal Aid CommiUee to provide such aid in civil matters. While the Government was most interested in this proposal, because of the strains being 'imposed upon the Public Solicitor's Office by increased business and staffing problems, it felt that a final decision should not be made until it could be confident that improved legal ,aid services would result.

In the financial year 1964-65, the first full year of operation of the Legal Aid Committee, it handled 1 371 applications for legal assistance. 'The number of applications has increased in each succeeding year as th~ services provided by the Commlttee have become more widely known, and in the year ended on 30th June, 1969, it dealt with 4,108 applications. It is clear, therefore, that up to the present time the CommiUee has been able to cope with an increasing level of business.

There is one either aspect of the Committee's operations which affects its capacity to extend its scheme to civil matteI'ls presently dealt with in the Public Solicitor's Office. This is the effect which the level .of payments to legal practitioners assisting in the scheme may have upon the continued success of the scheme. Under the Legal Aid Act 1961, the only moneys available f.or distribution to such practitioners are contributions by assisted persons and costs recovered in succe1ssful actions. During the p-ast four financial years the respective percentages of scale costs paid to legal practitioners assisting in the scheme have been: For 1965-66, 41.3 per cent.; 1966-67, 52.4 per cent.; 1'967-68, 57.7 per cent. ; 1968-69,57.48 per cent.

The reasons for the increase in the level of cost's paid are firstly more efficient recovery of ~osts a~arded in successful actions and, secondly the improvement of arrangements f.o; regular payment of contributions by as.sisted persons, who usually are perm'ltted to pay their contributions by weekly or .other periodical instalments. It is clear that essential overhead expenses incurred by practitioners amount to about 60 per cent. of scale costs, and the actual rate of dividend to practitioners assisting in the scheme has caused doubt as to whether the scheme can continue to deal with the increasing number of applications. Legal practitioners who are members of this House would know that, in most legal offices, overheads alone would be 60 per cent. or more of scale costs. It is only when a legal practitioner recovers 60 per cent. that he starts making -anything at all.

The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON.-It is better than farming.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Perhaps it is now. Those practitionel'1s taking part in the scheme have not only to get back what it costs to run their offices, but they must make money in other work. II do not blow the


trumpet for the legal profession, but what it is doing in this field is creditable.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVIcH.-Combined with their common-law practice it would not work 'Out to 'a bad average.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Some legal practitioners do a lot 'Of this work. Some credit is due to the members ·of the profession who do almost 100 per cent. ·of it.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-I do not take credit away from them, but they would make money if they applied them1selves s'Olely t'O it.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Jt is a public service. Since the Legal Aid Committee provides the sole means of legal assistance available to persons of limited means in Petty Sessions matters, a collapse of the scheme would be di1sastr·ous. Maintenance 'applications constitute by far the largest category of matters dealt with by the Legal Aid Committee, and most of the applicants in these cases are penniless. Although a limited amount 'Of costs is recovered from defaulting husbands, these applications tend to depress the dividend rate and to place a heavy burden 'On suburban solidto~s who are invariably assigned to such cases. Furthermore, the proposed transfer of civil cases from the Public Solicitor would involve assisted persons with very limited means and thi's, in tum, would tend further to depress the dividend.

However, as honorable members know, section 55A of the Legal Profession Practice Act 1958 provides for certain surplus moneys from the Solicitors Guarantee Fund to be paid to the Victoria Law Foundation and to the Treasurer ·as a 'Contribution towards the cost incurred by the State in providing legal aid. Advice from the Law Institute 'Of Victoria indicates the probability that such surplus moneys will become available in January, 1970, on a regular basis.

Accordingly, the Government proposes that such moneys shall form part of the Legal Aid Fund to be

crea ted under the provisions of Part II. of this Bill, and that provision shall be made for payment to practitionevs assisting in the Legal Aid Committee's scheme of 80 per cent. of costs as certified by the Committee. Consideration of the practice adopted in England and in other Australian States, and of current proposals in those places-the percentage of scale costs in comparable schemes varying from 60 per cent. to 90 per cent.-supports the proposal ,in the Bill for payment of 80 per cent. of 'Scale costs. There see.ms to' be no doubt that this figure represents a reasonable and moderate return to practitioners, over and above essential expenses of running a practice. Such a return should induce a greater number of practitioners to participate in the scheme than are available at the present time. -

Subject to implementation of the proposals in Part II. of the Bill, the Government is satisfied that the assumption by the Legal Aid Committee of greater responsibility for legal assistance in civil matters is both practicable and desirable. I will, when commenting on the clauses of the Bill, deal in more detail with legal assistance in civil matters, and with the manner in which the provision of legal aid in criminal matters is to be improved. The main advantages of the proposals in the Bill are as follows:-

(a) When fully implemented the re-organiza tion of functions will p·revent a repetition of difficulties in civil matters which have arisen in the Public Solicitor's Office in recent years.

(b) Legal assistance in criminal ma tters will be extended and expedited.

(c) Quite apart from speedier handling of civil matters, the scheme administered by the Legal Aid Committee is able to-

(i) respond much more quickly to increases ip business, because of the number of solicitors assisting in the sche.me ;

2100 Legal Aid [COUNCIL.] Bill.

'(ii) provide a more satisfactory solioitor-client relationship than the Public Solicitor who, under present circumstances, has thousands of clients on his books.

The details of the revised scheme of legal aid have been settled in consultation with the Victorian Bar Council, the Law Institute of Victoria and the Legal Aid Committee, all of which approve the proposals in the Bill.

The only clauses I propose to' refer to will indicate the structure of the Bill. Clauses 2 to 4 form Part I. of the Bill, and replace Part I. of the Poor Persons Legal Assistance Act 1958, which provides that the Attorney-General may cause arrangements to be made for the defence of a person who has been committed for trial for an indictable offence and who has obtained a certificate from a Judge or stipendiary magistrate that he is without adequate means to provide legal aid for himself.

Usually an accused person makes application for legal aid shortly after committal, and the application is referred to a stipendiary magistrate. After police inquiries as to' the means of the accused, if the magistrate is of opinion that the applicant does not have the means to provide legal aid fOT himself, he grants his certificate accordingly. The application is then forwarded to the Attorney-General who refers it to the Public Solicitor for recommendation and later makes a decision in light of such recommendation.

The chief alterations of the presen: system made by Part I. of the Bill are as follows :-

(a) The requirement of a certificate by a Judge or stipendiary magistrate has been omitted. It is intended that the form of application, which is to be prescribed by Iregulation, shall be verified by a statutory declaration as to' the means of the applicant, and this will be examined by the Public Solicitor when considering his recommendation as to grant of legal aid.


The form of declaration will be comprehensive and designed to provide information of the kind sought by the police in making their inquiries under the present system. In this 'way the time now occupied in obtaining a certificate as to means, including police inquiries, will be saved and decisions on applications will be expedited.

(b) As I have indicated, the present legal aid provisions are restricted to persons committed for trial for an ind"ictable offence. Clause 3 provides for legal aid in other cases, to which I shall refer later ~

Sub-clause (1) of clause 2 repeals Part II. of the :Poor Persons Legal Assistance Act 1958 and also section 575 of the Crimes Act 1958, the provisions of which are, in effect. incoTpo~ated in clause 3 of the Bill. Subclause (2) contains saving provisions to preserve arrangements and applications, in respect of legal aid in criminal matters, made under the provisions repealed by sub-clause (1).

Sub-clause (1) of clause 3 provides not only for applications for legal aid by persons committed for trial for indictable offences, for which provi· sion is made by Part I. of the POOT Persons Legal Assistance Act 1958, but also for applications for legal aid by-

(i)

(ii)

Persons to' whom notice of trial or notice of intention to prefer a presentment has been given. Persons directed to stand further trial.

(iii) Persons charged with treason, murder or manslaughter.

(iv) Persons appealing to the Full Court of the Supreme Court in respect of an indictable offence.

(v) Persons appealing to' the Privy Council in capital cases.

(vi) Respondents to appeals brought by the Crown.

That is a conside~able widening of the present scope under which aid can be given in criminal cases.


As 1 have indicated, the provision concerning appeals to the Full Court of the Supreme Court is by way of substitution for section 575 of the Crimes Act 1958. No provision is made in respect of appeals to the High Court, the rules of which provide for legal aid for poor persons. Sub-clause (3) of clause 3 contains provisions as to the .form of applications for legal assistance and the times within which they should be made.

Clause 4 enables the AttorneyGeneral to grant an application for legal assistance where it is deskable to do so in the interests of justice and the applicant is without adequate means to provide such assistance for himself.

I now refer to clauses 5 to 14 which form Part II. of the Bill. Their effect is to re-enact the Legal Aid Act 1961 with amendments. For convenience 1 will refer to that Act as the 1961 Act. As I have already mentioned, the scheme established under the 1961 Act -commenced operation in 1964, and has worked well. Persons of limited means may apply to the Legal Aid Committee, consisting of re-presentatives of the Victorian Ba'r CouncH and the Law Institute of Voictoria. The Committee has a staff which investigates all applications for legal aid. Where the Committee approves an application, a legal practitioner is assigned and payment of his costs is defrayed by contributions by the assisted person to the extent of his means, where he is lable to make a contribution, and by costs recovered where proceedings are successful. The costs of administ'ration of the scheme are borne by the State.

I pass now to the third group of clauses. 15 to 23, which for,m Part III. of the Bill and are concerned with the machinery for te~minating the functions of the Public Solicitor in civil proceedings and with certain supplementa'ry matters. The intention is that the provisions of Part II. of the Poor Persons Legal Assistance

Act 1958, in respect of legal assistance in civil proceedings, will be repealed progressively, so that appropriate a~rangements can be made for the Legal Aid Committee to take over cases in the various civil jurisdictions. At present, it seems that this can be done in two stages-firstly, all matters other than divorce and matrimonial causes; secondly, divorce and matrimonial causes. The first stage will probably be completed within 2 or 3 months after the legislation comes into operation, and the second stage about 6 months later. The Public Solicitor will then be required only to complete current matters.

I do not propose to deal with all the clauses in detail, but I have said sufficient to indicate that the Bill is a tremendous step forward. It will widen, increase and improve legal service to people who are without means on both the civil and the criminal sides. It will attract into the scheme more practising solicitors, which can do nothing but good. Overall, the Bill presents a workable and worth-while scheme, and 1 commend it to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West Province), the debate was adjourned.


PUBLIC WORKS LOAN APPLICA TION BILL.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Mjnister of Agriculture) .-1 move-


I have some 55 pages of notes relating to this Bill and do not intend to deal with all of the subjects to which they relate, but there are some aspects of the Bill to which I wish to refer. The purpose of the measure is to authorize the expenditure of loan funds to an amount not exceeding $117.819 million on a wide range of public works and services. As honorable members are aware, the Public Works Loan Application Bill

2102 Public Works Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill.

covers all items of loan expenditure which are not dealt with by the House in the more specific loan application Bills in the fields of water supply, raHways and forests, or by standing loan appropriations under other legislation.

The amounts proposed to be issued and applied from the Loan Fund under the 1969 Bill will cover expenditure on the 83 items contained in the schedule from the passing of the Act until another loan application Bill is introduced and passed in the 1970 spring session. The Bill thus provides for expenditure which will be incurred on the various items during the balance of the current financial yea1r as well as expenditure during the early months of the 1970-71 financial year.

In accordance with the usual practice, I have arranged for a printed explanatory statement to be circulated to honorable members setting out in respect of each item included in the schedule the actual expenditure incurred during 1968-69; the estimated expenditure in the current finandal year; and the amounts to be issued and applied from the Loan Fund under the Bill. I have also arranged for honorable members to receive a copy of the detailed notes to which I shall refer in the course of my remarks.

The first three clauses of the Bill are standard provisions and are identical with the existing legislation. Clauses 1 and 2 state the short title of the Act and authorize expenditure from the Loan Fund on the works and services enumerated in the s,chedule up to a total figure of $117.819 million. Clause 3 is the standard provision which provides that upon the passing of this Act all unexpended appropriations under the Public Works Loan Application Act 1968 ,will be cancelled and all future expenditure fQir the works and services ,involved will be charged against the provisions being provided in this Bill.

The Hon. G. L. Chandler.

Thus the bulk of the loan funds allocated for education is to be found in items 1 to 6 of the schedule. The Government has continued to give top priority to the claims of education in its distribution of funds available from borrowings. In fact, two-thirds of the additional loan funds available this year have been allocated to education, including amounts required to match Commonwealth grants for capital expenditure at universities and colleges of advanced education. This means that total Government spending from borrowings for eduoation at all levels will amount to: $48 million in 1969-70, which is more than 29 per cent. of the estimated expenditure on the entire Government works programme.

Another highly significant group of items are those providing for the capital expenditure needs of the health and hospital services. This group has also received special 'collisidera tion in loan allocations. Amounts 'totalling $20.8 million have been provided for these services this year, giving an increase of some $1.'5 million on expenditure in 1968-69. The main items here are item 74 covering expenditure on buildings and equipment for hospitals and charitable bodies, including teaching hospitals; items 27, 28 and 29 providing primarily for expenditure on works for the Mental Health Authority, sanatoria and the Cancer !Institute; and items 27, 76 and 77, providing for grants to bush nursing hospitals, pre-natal, infant welfare and pre-school centres and mentally retarded children's centres.

Items 13 to 16 comprise the various divisions of the Social Welfare Branch of the Chief Secretary's Department. The total 'allocation for these purposes amount to $1.824 million compared with the expenditure of $1,458,065 in the previous year. These funds will be spent by the Public Works Department in the construction of new buildings or the renovation of existing buildings and the provision of equipment for youth and family welfare institutions and the various State prisons.


I shall not discus's ·all the items in detail, but I invite honorable members to study the notes. I particularly direct attention to the allocation of $40 million for Education Department w·orks such as 'school buildings, and so on, and to the provision for the Hospital and Charities Commi1ssion which, of course, comes under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Health. These matters are outstanding in the sechedule of works for which finance will be made available, but I do not think I should mention every item.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.-It would be most informative if you went through all of them.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-I realize that but, of course, it would take a long time to do so. I am sure that Mr. Merrifield, having been a Minister ·of Public Works, will agree that the notes are informative and are well worth the study of honorable members who wish to inform themselves thoroughly on the works that are contemplated. T commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD (Doutta Galla Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the ne}rt day of meeting.

REVENUE DEFICITS FUNDING BILL.

This Bill was received from the As'sembly and, on the motion of the Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister 'Of Education), was read a first time.

STAMPS (MORTGAGES) BILL. This Bill was received from the


IVIOTOR CAR ,(TRAFFIC OFFENDERS) BILL.


That this Bill be now read a second .time. This Bill implements another major recommendation of the Joint Select Committee 'on Road Safety. In March

of this year, the Committee presented its second progress report in which it recommended the adoption of a points demerit system. The essential feature of such a system is that the holder of a licence to drive a motor car or a motor cycle is allocated a number of points for the commission of each of several traffic offences with the ultimate object, if he ama'sses too many points against him, of depriving him of his licence to drive for a fixed period.

There are several types of points systems in operation in various parts of the world, including Australia. Essentially, the system proposed by this Bill provides that certain offences shall incur penalty points and lays down the number 'Of points to be recorded against a driver for committing each offence. Many systems in operation in other parts of the world can be described as highly discretionary. Some are vague and uncertain as to the offences covered and as to the points to be allotted.

This Bill is quite explicit. The points level at which an offender will have his licence suspended is positive and the period of suspension 'is mandatory. The Chief Commissioner of Police and his officers are not required to assume the burden of exercising discretion. The principle behind the Bill is that the essential quality in a driver is that his road behaviour shall be disciplined and that he shall obey the traffic code. The offences embraced in the Bill all relate to the driving of motor vehicles 'and are set down in the Fifth Schedule. Points will be recorded against offenders in four circumstances :-

1. Where the offender has been convicted by the court of an offence referred to in the Fifth Schedule;

2. Where the offender has been served with a traffic infringement notice for an offence referred to in the Fifth Schedule and he has acknowledged and expiated his offence by the payment of a fixed penalty;

2104 Motor Car Traffic [COUNCIL.] Offenders) Bill.

3. Where the offender, having failed to expiate his offence by the payment of a fixed penalty, has been summoned before nhe court pursuant to sub-section (10) of section llA of the Road Traffic Act for one of the offences referred to in the Fifth Schedule and has been convicted of such offence; and

4. Where the offender has been served with a traffic infringement notice for one of the offences referred to in the Fifth Schedule and that traffic infringement notice has been withdrawn and the '0ffender summoned before the court pursuant to subsection (10) of section llA of the Road Traffic Act and convicted of such offence.

There are provisions under the Motor Car Act where, if the driver commits an offence, the owner of the motor incurs a penalty in addition to that of the driver. Under the provisions of the Bill demerit points are recorded against the driver only, because he is the person who has committed the offence.

No points will be recorded against a driver who has had his licence cancelled or suspended for a period of m'0re than three months on conviction for one 'Of the offences referred to in the Fifth Schedule. If, in any proceedings in which the licence is S'0 ,cancelled or suspended, any previous conviction is proved against the holder of the licence for an offence referred to in the Fifth Schedule, the Chief C'0mmissioner shall expunge from the record of that licence holder the demerit points recorded against him in respect to that previous conviction. Those points will have been taken into account by the court in fixing a penalty.

In any such ease where a previous conviction is proved, the clerk ·of the court shall notify the Chief Commissioner of Police of the proving of such conviction in the prescribed form. The fact that demerit points are recorded in the Demerits Register aga'inst the holder of a licence to


drive shall not be disclosed or be admissible in evidence in any proceedings whatsoever before a court.

When the driver has 12 or more points recorded against him within the last preceding 3 years, his licence will be suspended by the Chief Commissioner of Police for a period of 3 months, but if the 12 or more points are recorded within a period of 1 year, his licence will be suspended for 6 months. In assessing the total number of demerit points, the Chief Commissioner shall have regard only to th'0se points which are recorded within the period of 3 years immediately preceding the latest day upon which the holder of the licence committed an offence referred to in the schedule. Points incurrred for offences committed in the distant past are to be disregarded.

Where the driver's licence 'is suspended by the Chief Commissioner for having 12 or more demerit points, he shall expunge 12 demerit points from the record of the driver. The driver starts again without any balance of points. Suspension of a licence by the Chief Commissioner will be notified to the holder of the licence by notice served either personally or by registered post.

On receipt of the notice of suspension by the Chief Commissioner, the holder of the licence is required forthwith to deliver or send his licence to the police station specified in the notice. If the notice is served personally by a member of the Force, the holder of the licence may deliver the licence t'O him. Any person who so fails to deHver his licence will be guilty of an offence.

A person whose licence has been suspended will be deemed not to be a licensed driver of a motor car or motor cycle during the whole period of his suspension of 3 months or 6 months as the case may be. He will be permitted under the Bill to renew his licence, but it will have no force or effect until the period of suspension has expired.

Probate Duty [26 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Bill. 2105

The Bill gives the driver whose licence has been suspended for exceeding 12 or more demerit points a right of appeal to ,a magistrate's court on the grounds only tha t-

(a) demerit points have been recorded against him in error or because of wrongful or mistaken identity; or

(b) a miscalculation has been made in the assessment of the total number of demerit points recorded against him; o.r

(c) that the suspension is unduly severe in the circumstances of the particular case.

The eourt may give the Chief Commissioner any direction it thinks proper for the amendment of the Demerits Register or, in the case of an appeal against the severity of the suspension, may vary the period of the suspension, and every decision of the court upon suoh appeal shall be final.

As a matter of administration, the Chief Commissioner will send a warning letter to the holder of a licence when he has recorded against him six demerit points. That is important. The real purpose of this measure is to encourage better driving by threat of suspension of licence. To inform an offender that he has acquired six points may help to bring about that result.

.r commend the members of the Road Safety Committee on their work; they have been most assiduous. Certainly, from the nature, seope, and exhaustiveness of the reports they have submitted, it is obvious that they have gone to a great deal of trouble. It i's up to Parliament to support the Committee and to tackle the problem of the regular loss of Hfe, injury, and damage on our roads. I believe this Bill represents a step forward, and I have great pleasure in commending it to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. J. M. W AlLTON (Melbourne North Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, Decem:ber 2~

PROBATE DUTY BILL. The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON

(Minister of Education).---I mov'e-That this Bill be now read a second time'.

Us m'ain purpose lis to overcome a difficulty which prevents the imlmedi'ate al'lowance of 'a rebate of probate duty on land used for pri:ma~ production as 'was originaUy intended. Honorable 'members 'will recall that in 1962 the Government provided for the 'aUowance of a rebate on the duty attributable to land used for prim;ary production which passed to persons related by blood 'Or ,marriage to tile deceased peI'1son. This scheme operated satisfactorily until 1968 when a judgment was given in the Suprem'e Court in Campbell's 'case. This 'made it imposs:1ble to. 'allow 'a rebate in some oases until m'any years after death. For example, a Hfe tenant 'might be in possessi'On of the property rand on a stlf:iet interpretation of the statute the rebate could not be allowed immediately. The Commissioner of Probate Duties has allowed an extension of time for the payment of that amount of duty equivalent to the expected rebate, but this is not a satisfactory solution.

It was thought advisable to clear up the 'm'atter by introducing ,amending legislation, and the eff,ect of the Bnl is to give the Comm1issioner of Probate Duties power to allow a rebate even if, strictly speaking, the land used for primary production has not yet passed to persons related by blood or marriage to the deceased person. The Commissioner must be satisfied that the land is likely to pass to such persons. It is proposed that the amendment shall apply to the estates of persons who died both before and after it becomes law. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was 'Ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting,


. LAND TAX (RATES) BILL. This Bill was received from the

Assembly ·and, 'On the 'motion of the Hon. G. L. CHANDLER ('Minister of Agriculture), was read 'a first tiime.

THE CONSTITUTION ACT AMENDMENT (STANDING APPROPRIATIONS) BILL.

The debat'e (adjourned from October 14) on the 'motion of the Hon. G. L. Chandler (Minister of Agrkulture) far the second reading af this Bill ·was resumed.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbaurne West ProVlince).-This small :m'easure is designed to cape with what -might be termed the s:igns af the times. It becames necessary to' change some af the amounts that exist in the principa,l Act land replace them with higher fi'gures t'O 'meet the inflatianary spiral. On this occasion it is the Legislative CaunC'iJI which :is caught up in the spiral. My party d'Oes nat appose the pass:age of the Bill.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (NorthWestern Province).-The Country Party supparts the Bill.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-I a,m of apini'On that the second and third 'readings 'Of this BUI require to' be pass'ed by absalute mlajor.itties. In arder that .J may ascertain whether the required major.ity has been obtained, I ask honorable m'embers in fav'Our 'Of the motion to ,stand 'in their places.

I declare the sec'Ond reading of this Bill :carried by 'an absolute -mlaj'Ority of the whole number of the me'mbers of this H:ouse.

The Bin ·was read a second ttime, passed through Com:mittee and reported to' the Hause without amendment, ·and the !report w-as 'adopted.

The :motion for the third reading of the Bill having been ,carried by an absolute majority of the whole number of the members af the House, the Bill was read a third time.

LEGAL PROFESSION PRACTICE BILL.

The debate ~adjourned from November 25) on the imotion of the Han. R. J. Hamer (Minister far Local Gavernment) [0'1' the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbaurne W·es't Prov.ince ).-This measure 'contains a number af sma}!! amendments to the Legal Profession Practice Act which revolve araund the Victaria Law Faundatian and the SoHcitors Gua~antee Fund. I agree with the ,statem'ent made by the Minister :for Local Government in his second-reading speech that the variaus a'mendmentswiill p'flo'Vide fOT the smoother -working of the Act, but II wa,s 'attracted by the amendment to' sub-sectian (7) af sectian 14A as cantained in paragraph (a) af clause 2 of the Bill, which gives power t'O the Victoria Law Faundatian to appaint 'mo~e st'aff. H'Owever, hanarable imembers were given nO' 'indicatian why this was necessary.

Under the Act, the Foundation has the pawer to' appoint a secretary, but there is no power to appoint other staff m-embers. Apparently it is cansidered that there lis 'a need .for more staff, and pawer to' appoint the st,aff has to be 'written into the Act. The House -was nat tald whether the bus'iness of the 'Foundation had inoreased to such 'an extent that the secretary 'could not cape 'with the work ar whether the FoundaNon wanted to appoint a Icauple of typists~ a clerk ora superior offieer to assist the secretary. The honorable gentleman sa'id that this a'mendment was simple, but han'Orable 'members were not told the bask :reason for it.

Siim'i,larly, the am-endment to' subsectian (3) af sectian 55A, as contained in paragraph (b) of clause 2 of the BiB, proposes that the expressian "80 per ,cent." shall be changed to "70 per cent. ". OnlY'a vague outline 'Of why this was necessary -was ,given. The rest of the Bill is of a m.achinery nature ai'med at improving the Act. I have no doubt that the 'amendments have been

Legal Profession [26 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Practice Bill. 2107

inoluded in the Bill as a result 'Of representations made '1'0 the Attome'YGeneral, but I w·as linte~ested in section 14D of the Act which relates to the Victoria Law Foundation. It provides-

The Foundation shall at least once in each year make a report .to the Attorney-General on .the performance of its functions and every such report shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament.

In an endeavour to' learn something about the activities of the Vktori a Law Foundation, I inquired at the Papers Room of the Legislative Assembly and the Papers R'Do.m of the Legislative Council for a copy 'Of its report. I was unsuccessful because neither of the officers in charge of the Papers Rooms was familiar 'with the Law Foundation report, and could not tell me whether one existed. I sought advice from senior officers who have passed through the Papers Rooms over the past 2 or' 3 years, but they could not remember ever having seen such a report. Ilf it is available, I should like to see it so that I may determine what the Foundation has been doing since it was established to carry out certain tasks on behalf of the Government.

In the past the Statute Law Revision Committee has found that quite a number of bodies have neglected their obligation to provide reports. Apart from that small ,complaint, my party supports the proposed legislation.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) .---1 congratulate Mr. Todd on his contribution t'D this debate. This Bill is :concerned mainly with questions of routine and with tidying up several matters which were the subjects of previous legislation.

Before turning to the amendments contained in the measure, rr wish to refer to the fact that, as Mr. Todd stated, the report from the Victoria Law IFoundaNon has not been available to the House. 'I do not think honorable members should pass this Bill until a satisfactory explanation of that omission has been given. Honorable members should have the

report before proceeding with this measure, the passage of which will enable the 'Foundation to increase its staff.

The Solicitors Guarantee Fund has been discussed on a number of occasions in this Chamber and, under the provisions of this measure, an additional amount will be ·made available for the ramification of that Fund for legal aid in this State. I understand that another Bill before the House also deals with the subject of legal aid.

The Country Party thoroughly welcomes this innovation in the law. It is an innovation because, unfortunately, legal aid in Victoria has been lagging and needs to be greatly extended. However, I shall deal more fully with that ·when the other Bill is debated.

In previous legislation concerning the recovery of moneys when there has been a defalcation and the innocent partners have stepped in to help the client, as it were, it has been found that until all outstanding claims have been met the innocent partners :cannot recoup the amounts they have advanced. The Country Party is very .much in favour of the provision in the Bill which overcomes this position. lIt has been 'most unfortunate that certain members of the legal profession have fallen far short of the standard of honesty one would expect. Such cases have been few, but some of them have been spectacular. The problem of re-employing law clerks who have proved to be dishonest and who have been dismissed is a diffi·cult one. This Bill deals with the problem.

The Country IParty does not intend to oppose this Bill. I do not know what attitude the Labor Party will adopt with regard to the missing report. I admit that ,I had not considered the matter until ,Mr. Todd drew the attention of the House to it, but I think it is a serious matter and that a full explanation should be furnished by the Minister before the House proceeds with this Bill. My


party is not happy to allow a measure to pass if it is not satisfied that everything is in order. IMr. Todd also referred to the fact that the House has not been told why extra staff are required by the Victoria Law ,Foundation. The principal Act provides for the appointment of a secretary only, and honorable members have not been told what other staff :members are required or what their duties or salaries are to be. I ask the iMinister to explain the matters to which I have referred.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill ·was read a second time

and committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 (Victoria Law Founda

tion) . The Hon. R. J. HAMER ('Minister

for Local Government) .-Three questions were raised during the secondreading debate, and II believe I can ans·wer each of them adequately. I think two of the questions arise from a misconception in relation to the Law ·Foundation. The Act which authorized the formation and operation of the Foundation was passed only in 1967. It was called the Legal Profession Practice (Vktoria Law Foundation) Act. T have not yet been able to ascertain exactly when the Act ·was proclaimed, ibut I am 'certain that it was passed by Parlia·ment in 1967. Members.of the Law 'Foundation have !been appointed and have ·commenced to operate only in the past few ·months.

·1 believe two of the features of this Bill to which attention has been drawn arose from the fact that as soon as the ,Foundati.on was formed and looked into the question of staff, it was discovered that sub-section (7) of section 14A of the Act pro-vided for the appointment of a secretary only. The Foundation has sought the appointment of additional staff, and provision is made for that in this measure. lit is surely not the function of the Legislative Council to ask the IFoundation how ·many staff it requires and what their duties are to

be. The extra staff are to be appointed "for the purposes of the Foundation"; those are the words used in the Bill. In other words, someone is needed to answer the telephone, or to type, or to carry out other tasks which do not fall within the duties of a secretary. I think the request is reasonalble and one which any Foundation of this kind which proposes to do any ·work at all is· justified in making.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-The' Attorney-General could have informed us of that in the notes supplied to the IMinister on which he based his second-reading speech.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I do not wish to be misunderstood, but the Attorney-General probably thought a little common sense would indicate that a secretary alone would not be sufficient, and that he would need assistance. As it stands, the principal Act is defective. The Government must accept some responsibility for that as alsO' must the Parliament,. because no one notked it at the time. Only a small additional staff will be appointed. Persons can be appointed only for the pur.poses of the IFoundation and, with the Chief Justice at its: head, I think there is sufficient guarantee.

The same cO'mment applies to the· so-called missing report; it is not missing. The Foundation has not yet completed one year .of life. Knowingthe calibre of the people appointed' to the Victoria Law Foundation, I am' sure that the report will be available· to honorable members in due course· and that it will reveal the true scope' and activities of the Foundation in the year in respect of .which it is sub-m-itted. The fact is that the Founda-tion is only now com'mencing opera-tions.

The reason for the decrease from' 80 per cent. to 70 per 'cent. in the· allO'cation of funds from the Solicitors Guarantee ,Fund is tied up with another measure which relates to the· extension of legal aid and which will' be discussed later. This additional' amount will help to cover the cose

Railways (Offences) [26 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Bill. 2109

of providing an increase of legal aid. I aim sure that all honorable members wish to see an extension of legal aid.

In my second-reading speech, I mentioned that the Chief Justice, as president of the Viictoria Law Foundation, has been consulted, and he believes that the 'Foundation will be able to carry out its tasks with the 70 per cent. of the Fund which will still remain. That is the reason for the reduction.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD ('Melbourne West Province) .-1 thank the Minister for his explanation. In 'connexion with the report of the Victoria Law Foundation, it was assumed that as it was established by legislation enacted in 1967, it would have completed one full year of operation by this time and that the IFoundation might have submitted one report. II accept the IMinister's word that it co'mmenced full operations only a few months ago and that sufficient time has not yet elapsed for a report to be suihmitted to the Parliament.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining :clauses.

The Bill ,was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

SALE OF LAND (AMENDMENT) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government), was read a first time.

RAILWAYS (OFFENCES) BILL. The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (M'inister

of Health) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

Its purpose is to combat fare evasion on the railways. Many people are travelling without paying a fare or are paying fares for journeys shorter than those they actually make. To stop these practices, the provisions of the Railways Act 1958 relating to fare evasion need to be tightened.

A number of people, particularly in the suburban area, travel without tickets because they have not left themselves enough time to buy tickets before boarding the train or the booking office at their boarding station was not open. These people have no intent to defraud but it is impossible to segregate them from those who are travelling without tickets, or those who are not paying the appropriate fare for their journey and who do so with the deliberate intention of evading their obligations.

During the twelve months to 30th September last, almost 950,000 persons were detected travelling without tickets and subsequently paid their fare. Of this number 81,000 were detected by inspectors on trains, the remainder at station barriers. The Commissioners are satisfied, however, that many of these people did not pay fares for the full distances travelled. The Commissioners also estimate that up to 250,000 people may have travelled without tickets and escaped detection; that is a large number but taken in perspective it is only .17 per cent. of total railway passengers for a year.

As I have said, of the passengers who did not purchase tickets, a number may not have had an opportunity to do so as they began their journeys at stations where booking offices are not open in the evenings. N evertheless, the number of people in this category are such that the bulk of those detected without tickets had an opportunity to purchase them.

The number of passengers who are involved in either fare evasion or travelling without tickets is substantial, but existing legislation makes it difficult for the Commissioners to take effective action and this lack of effective action is taken by many passengers as condoning the kind of thing that is going on.

If a system of fare collection does not protect people from themselves, there is a strong encouragement to try to beat the system. It is not surprising that there is a growing tendency to view travelling on the

2110 Railways (Offences) [COUNCIL.] Bill.

railways without a ticket as an acceptable practice which is not unlawful or not sufficiently so to worry about. The Commissioners are convinced that there are people who travel without tickets as a matter of regularity. This is a situation which should not be allowed to continue.

Section 31 of the Railways Act 1958 requires the railways to prove " intent to evade payment" of a fare. This is difficult to prove and on many occasions this provision has prevented a conviction from being obtained in cases where people have travelled without tickets. The more recen t experience in the courts is that the offender merely states that he intended to pay his fare and the case has then been dismissed. As a result, prosecutions have not been made in a large number of cases. If' a passenger is detected either en route or at the exit barrier at his destination and he offers a fare, prosecution is avoided. There is, therefore, under the existing circumstances a lack of ability to apply a deterrent to fare evaders.

This Bill substitutes a new section 31 in the Railways Act 1958. The "intent to evade" provision which is causing so much trouble in the existing legislation .is being discarded and replaced with a provision that a person travelling in a train without a valid ticket or a person who does not produce one on request is committing an offence and is liable to a penalty of not more than $50. This penalty is a higher maximum than that prescribed now-$40-which was set in 1865. I am sure honorable members will agree that the change is justified.

The Bill also makes provision to deal with the person who by fraudulent or collusive means or by false representation obtains a ticket or travels without paying the proper amount. This is similar to the exist~ ing provision, but the maximum penalty for this offence is increased from $40 to $100.

Whilst the Commissioners believe that in most cases passengers who travel without tickets do so when


they could have had an opportunity to buy tickets, the Bill includes a provision that it is a defence for any person found without a ticket that he took all reasonable steps to obtain one. This provision is intended to cover the position of those passengers -a small percentage of total passengers-who board a train at a station where the booking office is not open. The purpose of sub-clauses (5) and (6) is to exclude railway staff in the course of their duties from the provision relating to travel without tickets and to define terms used in the Bill.

I believe this is a matter which requires that firm action should be taken quickly. Th.is action will be taken by the railways and the situation brought under control as soon as they are in a firm position to do so. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province), the debate was adjourned.


RACING (TROTTING RACING) BILL.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Min.ister of Health) .-1 move-


As honorable members will recall, during the autumn sessional period last year, legislation was enacted in the form of the Racing (Amendment) Act 1968 which, amongst other things, established a Racecourses Develop-

. ment Fund.

Under the law as it now stands, moneys standing to the credit of that Fund may be applied by the Racecourses Licences Board, with the approval of the Treasurer-

(a) to assist in making permanent improvements on licensed racecourses, in constructing or making permanent improvements to training tracks or to ancillary facilities under the management of the race club;


(b) to re-finance any liability incurred by a race club in carrying out such work;

(c) to discharge any liability incurred by a race club in carrying out such work;

(d) to discharge any liability incurred by a race club in respect to a racecourse which has ceased to be licensed ; and

( e) to assist horse trainers to transfer their premises to or to the vicinity of a training track.

The moneys to be paid to the credit of that Fund were provided by an increase in the commission on investments on the off-course totalizator for daily doubles with respect to horse-races.

. The establishment of the Fund was essential in the interests of the racing industry in general, not only to assist the many race clubs to refinance their existing liabilities incurred in making permanent improvements to racecourses, but also to assist their future development. During the short time it has been in existence, the Racecourses Development Fund has proved to be a boon to both metropolitan and country racing, and I have no doubt that the scheme will continue to have the far-reaching effects which the Government expects of it.

Since the introduction of the Racecourses Development Fund for the improvement of horse racing, representations have been made to the Government by the Trotting Control Board for the Act to be amended to increase the percentage of investments on the off-course totalizator on daily doubles with respect to trotting races from 13 per cent. to 14 per cent. and the moneys so derived from that 1 per cent. increase in commission to be applied for the benefit of trotting racing in a manner similar to that which applies for horse racing.

The Trotting Control Board has put the case to the Government that the increased cost of building and allied

facilities has overstrained the capacities of trotting clubs to provide the amenities expected by the trotting public. Consequently, many clubs. which have embarked upon new ventures and extensions to existing facilities are experiencing difficulty in meeting their commitments. I am also advised by the Board that trotting clubs are encountering problems in obtaining adequate finance for much-needed capital works, and this is particularly so with respect to the new trotting racecourses at Kialla and Hamilton.

After careful consideration of the case put by the Trotting Control Board, the Government agrees that the law should be amended to assist the development of trotting racing in a similar m::tnner to that which is already provided for the development of horse racing. Accordingly, the Bill extends the provisions of section 34 of the principal Act to provide fOf" the constitution of the Racecourses Licences Board when it is exercising powers and functions in relation to the Racecourses Development Fund' insofar as they affect trotting;' increases by 1 per cent. the com-· mission to be deducted from investments on daily doubles On trotting' races and provides that the amount obtained from that increase of 1 per cent. shall be paid into the Racecourses Development Fund to be used for the benefit of trotting racing; and extends the powers and' functions of the Racecourses Licences' Board to pay from the racing divi-· sion of the Fund amounts with respect to horse-racing and from the trotting division of the Fund amountS' with respect to trotting racing.

Under section 34 of the principal Act, when granting licences and' allotting the number of race meetings' for trotting, the constitution of the' Racecourses Licences Board is the chairman, the chairman of the Victoria Racing Club or his nominee and a person nominated by the Chief Secretary as representing trotting racing interests of all race-meetings. districts.

2112 Racing (Trotting [COUNCIL.] Ra'cing) Bill.

The Bill reconstitutes the Board when it is acting in its trotting jurisdiction. By virtue of sub-clause (3) of clause 2, the Board, when it is granting licences and allotting the number of race meetings for trotting races or exercising any of its powers and functions with respect to the Racecourses Development Fund in so far as it relates to trotting, shall consist of the chairman; the chairman of the Trotting Control Board or his nominee; and a person appointed by the Chief Secretary as representing in his opinion the interests of trotting clubs having racecourses within the race meetings districts.

Section 116AJ of the principal Act provides that the Totalizator Agency Board shall deduct 13 per cent. of the moneys invested on daily doubles on trotting races by way of commission. The effect of the amendment to section 116AJ which is contained in clause 4 of the Bill is to increase that commission from 13 per cent. to 14 per cent. Clause 5 provides for the additional 1 per cent. of commission so deducted from daily doubles on trotting races to be paid into the Racecourses Development Fund in the same way as moneys deducted from daily doubles on horse races.

Section 126 of the principal Act establishes the Racecourses Development Fund in the Treasury. Paragraph (a) of clause 6 of the Bill requires the Treasurer to keep that Fund in two divisions to be called the racing division and the trotting division, respectively, and paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) set down the moneys which shall be paid into or which may be paid from the respective divisions of the Fund.

I have already outlined the payments which the Board may make from the Fund with respect to horse racing. The effect of clause 6 is that it extends the powers and functions of the Racecourses Licences Board to make payments from the appropriate division of the Fund with respect to trotting racing.


As section 34 of the principal Act stands, the Under-Secretary is ex officio the chairman of the Racecourses Licences Board. The scope and activities of the Board have widened considerably since provision was first made that the Under-Secretary for the time being should be ex officio the chairman. It is essential today that the office .of chairman shall be occupied by a person who is an experienced and competent racing administrator whether he is Under-Secretary or not. Of course, Mr. Dillon, who holds the office of Under-Secretary, is not only keenly interested in the welfare of racing but is also highly knowledgeable in matters relating to its administration. However, there may come a time when a future Under-Secretary is not so fitted to act as chairman of the Racecourses Licences Board as is the present occupant of that office.

The Government considers, therefore, that section 34 should be made more flexible with respect to the appointment of the chairman. Accordingly, the Bill amends that section to provide that the chairman of the Board shall be a person appointed by the Governor in Council.

On the motion of the Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province), the debate was adjourned.



The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-1 move-


A Bill to amend the Friendly Societies Act was submitted to this House during last session but was not dealt with before the close of the session because friendly societies claimed that they had had insufficient time in which to examine and com,ment on its provisions. Since then, several meetings of the Friendly Societies Association have been held to discuss the Bill and, later, rep,resentatives of the Association met the Government Statist. As


a result, several amendments to the earlier Bill have been agreed to and are incorpora ted in this lmeasure, which has the full support of the Friendly Societies Association. It amends the Friendly Societies Act 1958 to afford a more adequate protection of the financial interests of members. Its purpose is to amend the principal Act to-

(a) apply stricter auditing provisions to societies and branches-with the exception of shop clubs which have small membership and limited funds;

(b) require societies to submit more detailed returns to the Government Statist on the accrual basis rather than on a cash basis as at present;

(c) 'require persons or societies which collect contributions for registered societies to submit returns to the Government Statist;

(d) empower the central body of a society-

(i) to require a branch which is not functioning sa tisfactorily to amalgamate with a well-run branch, or

(ii) to direct such a branch as to how it shall conduct its affairs and in partkular what records should be kept in the interest of uniformity of procedures ; and

(e) provide for the appointment of a Registrar of Friendly Societies subject to the Public Service Act.

Under section 14 of the Friendly Societies Act, every registered society is required once in every year to submit its accounts and securities for audit, either by one of the public auditors appointed under section 41 of the Act or to two or more persons appointed under the rules of the society. The persons appointed under the rules are often not qualified auditors, and I am advised by the Government Statist that the standard of auditing reflected in the annual returns of branches submitted

to him is frequently very poor. Accordingly, except in respect of shop clubs, it is proposed to preclude unqualified auditors from conducting audits and also to prohihit employees of a society from acting as auditors of branches with the exception that both these restrictions will not apply if the central body of the society has full power to control and be responsible for all asp·ects of branch management.

The effect of these provisions will be to ensure that where individual branches of a society wish to retain their complete autonomy, including the full control of their funds and assets, then the accounts must be audited by persons qualified pursuant to section 41 of the Act who are not in any way connected with the administra tion of the society. On the other hand, lif, by the rules, the central body has the power to control branches, the present systems of audit may be retained even though this means audits are conducted by unqualified auditors who if necessary could be employees of the society. However, all branch auditors will in future be required to satisfy the . central body of the society as well as the committee of management of the branch.

Under the existing legislation, accounts of friendly societies are kept on a cash basis and consequently receipts include moneys received but not due, and expenditure excludes amounts due but not paid. Such a procedure gives a misleading impression of the financial state of the funds of societies. For this reason the Bill provides for friendly society accounts and returns to the Govern·ment Statist to be on an accrual basis. Provision is also made for societies to choose one of two dates as a closing date and for returns to the Government Statist to be submitted on 1st October in each year instead of 1 st August.

Minor amendments to the present provisions relating to the valuation of funds are also made. These substitute the word " actuary" fot

2114 Friendly Societies [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

" valuer" and thus ensure a valuation by a suitably qualified person. Provision is also :made for the Government Statist to carry out the valuation of a specific fund at less frequent intervals. than five years if so decided. Although the bulk of contributions due to friendly societies are paid direct to secretaries, in some circumstances it is convenient for central organizations to act as agents, particularly when contributions due by employees are deducted from salaries by employers. The organization can then sort out the contribuHons due to the various societies and remit them to the secretaries. This facilitates the matter in so far as the employer is concerned. Such organizations are not registered under the Friendly Societies Act, and it is considered that the Govern,ment Statist should exercise some supervision over their activities. Accordingly, provision is made for these agents to supply such information as the Government Statist may require.

I now refer to clause 5, which empowers the central body of a society to requi're a branch to amalgamate with another branch or the cent~al body if its affairs are not being conducted satisfactorily. For instance, many branches of friendly societies do not now hold meetings as required by their registered rules and are relatively inactive in their administration. On the other hand, for example, even though meetings are being held there may be gross inefficiency in the administration of a branch but the central body may wish to retain the branch. In such a case there is a need for the central body to exercise stricter control over all aspects of branch management, particularly to ensure that the administration of the branch is conducted in accordance with the provisions of the Act and the rules of the society. In many branches there is also need for an active investment policy in relation to funds under their control. Uniformity in keeping records and accounts is also a matter which needs attention.

The Ron. V. O. Dickie.

Accordingly, clause 6 empowers the central body of a SOciety to direct its branches as to the ,method of keeping accounts, registers and records and to such other matters relating to the conduct of the affairs of a branch as the central body thinks necessary so that the transactions and affairs of its branches are conducted on as uniform a basis as possible. The amendment also provides that, where a branch of a society fails to carry out any such directions to the satisfaction of the central body, a report shall be made to the Registrar and to the Government Statist.

The provisions of section 41 require public auditors-that is, auditors authorized to audit the accounts of societies-to be appointed by the Governor in Council. Clause 7 substitutes a new section 41 to provide that auditors approved in the future shall be persons who are registered company auditors under the provisions of the Companies Act 1961. Under the provisions of section 7 of the Act, the Registrar of Friendly Societies is required to be a barrister of the Supreme Court of at least seven years' standing and the appointment as Registrar is made by the Governor in ~ouncil. For many years, the RegIstrar has been the Public Solicitor, who is an officer of the Law Department. In view of the increase in friendly society activities, it is desirable that an officer of the Government Statist's staff should perform the duties of Regist'rar so that the procedure of Government control is concentrated in one office. It is, however, not considered desirable for the same person to be Govern'ment Statist and Registrar or Acting Registrar and accordingly this situation is prohibited.

The Bill substitutes a new section 7 providing for the appointment of a Registrar subject to the Public Service Act and for the present Registrar to continue in office until the new Registrar is appointed. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. ARCHIIBAlJD TODD (Mellbourne West Province), the debate was -adjourned.

Navigable Waters (Oil [26 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Pollution) (Amendment) Bill. 2115

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day 'Of meet,ing.

CROWN RESERVATIONS (REVOCATION AND EXCISION)

BILL. This BiB was received from the

Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health), was read a first Hme.

NAVIGABLE WATERS (OIL POLLUTION) (AM.ENDMENT)

BILL. The debate (adjourned from

NO'vember 25) on themoti'On of the Hon. V. O. Dickie (Minister of Health) for the second reading of this Bill was ~resumed.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT {IMelbourne West ,Provinoe).-The Minister fully explained the provisions of this ,measure. Members of the Labor Party approve of the passage of 'legislaUon which iis designed to prevent the pO'llution .of navigable waters lin Victoda and in the CO'mmonwealth of Australia beoause this is a sea-'locked nation. One sees on television and in the newspapers repO'rts of 'Oil tanke~s runn1ng onto rocks in places such as Cornwall with the result that their cargoes have caused great da-mage to beaches and seashores. M-embers of the Labor Party do not wish to' delay the passage of this measure. HOlwever, at some stage in the future, I hope the Government win strengthen the State legislation to deal with oill pollution which emanates from a stream in the area adjacent to the municipality in which II had the privilege of residing prior to my shifting approximately twelve -months ago. A great deal of oil poUution enters Port Phillip Bay from this souroe. The result is that, :from time t'0 Hme, oil-ta1inted fish are oaught in the Bay. I regret that Mr. Thorn is again absent through illness. I a'm sU!re he would -make si;milar remarks in relation to oil pollution whkh affects the fishing in Corio Bay. Memhers of the Labor Party support the Bill.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON (Gippsland Province).-The purpose of the HiU has been fully expJ'ained by the Minister, land it has the support of members of the Country Party. A responsible Gov-ernment -may be expected to act quickly to ensure that every effort is made to keep Victoria's ports and beaches .free from oil pollution. The Navigable Waters (Oil Pollution) Act 1960 is to be amended by this ,measure. The history of that Act goes ba,ck t'O the 1950s. In 1954, Australia signed the International C0'nvention for the Prevention of Pollution of the Sea by Oil.

,In the past, great difficulty has been experienced by port authorities in -attempting to lay charges against offenders. The Bill 'makes necessary a'mendments with the object of more effectively enforcing the provisions of the Act. ,I note that this measure is uniform throughout the Commonwealth ·and -is complementary to legislation in other States. This will ensure that there is no 'misunderstanding on the part of owners or ·agents and that they are fully aware of their obligations in regard to pollution. As a result of a court ruling, the Bill provides an exemption for an agent. It was held that an agent',s respons'ibility ends when a ~hip leaves the shore. In the past, It ·was difficult to place the responsibirHty for pollution on the agent. It is now proposed that the relevant notice will be served jointly 0'n the master, the owner and the agent. The new section 6A, which will be inserted by clause 4, will place the liability for pollution on the person who is obviously at fault. Clause 5, which amends section 7 of the principal Act, provides that it shall be a defence to prove that the discharge of oil was not wilful or negligent. Another important provision in the Bill is contained in clause 9, which inserts a new sub-section in section 11, requiring written notice concerning pollution to be given to

2116 Navigable Waters (Oil [COUNCIL.] Pollution) (Amendment) Bill.

the responsible person, thus eliminating any misunderstanding which could arise because of language barriers.

This common sense measure is designed to avoid oil pollution of our beaches. In future years, we may expect greater activity involving larger vessels in our ports. Consequently, the amendments proposed by this Bill will tighten up the legislation and rectify any disabilities which now exist. The Country Party believes that the increase in sea traffic which may be expected in the near future as a result of oil discoveries off the coast, and the resultant increase in imports and exports of oil byproducts, justifies a measure of this type. I support the Bill.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West Province) .-1 support the remarks of my colleague, Mr. Knight, particularly his expressions of concern in regard to beaches at Williamstown and Altona and farther east at Port Melbourne and South Melbourne. During the debate, much has been said concerning the discharge of oil from ships, but the oil companies are frequently responsible for oil pollution. I am reminded of an incident not long ago when the service pipeline at one of the piers at Port Melbourne was cracked and tons of oil escaped into the water and polluted nearby beaches. Extensive cleaning-up operations were necessary to eliminate the pollution. 1 do not know who paid for the work that was involved, but I was informed by the Melbourne Harbor Trust that whoever was responsible for the pollution would be required to pay for the cleaning-up operations. 1 assumed the oil company that was responsible for the pollution would have to foot the bill.

Irrespective of what action is taken to eliminate pollution, oil and slime cannot be entirely disposed of, with the result that much of it is washed on to the beaches, thereby causing inconvenience to people who use them. 1 am concerned with the rapacity of the oil companies, whose

main motive appears to be that of making profits. It has been suggested that pipelines should be constructed underneath Port Phillip Bay. Honorable members must remember that a fractured pipeline could cause not just 1 or 2 tons but hundreds of tons of oil to be discharged into the Bay. The Government must watch these proposals carefully ; they are designed simply to increase the profits of the oil companies. I realize, of course, that the construction of a comprehensive pipeline system, which would eliminate certain transport problems, would save a good deal of money for the oil companies. It behoves the Government not to allow too much licence in this regard. The Government should be in a position to prevent a pipeline from being constructed if there is any risk of pollution occurring in the Bay or around the coast.

Honorable members know what happened not long ago off the coast of the United Kingdom when an oil tanker got into difficulties and discharged its cargo of oil into the sea, thereby causing immense problems to many of the leading bayside resorts of the Old Country. We do not want that to happen here. There is always the chance that because of some misfortune a ship might discharge its cargo of oil which could be washed ashore by the tides. The Government must continually be alert to guard against any intrusion of the pipeline system under the Bay or around the coast of our bayside suburbs. The interests of the community rather than the profit-making motives of the oil companies should be paramount.

I agree with Mr. Knight that great care should be exercised to ensure that the beaches are not polluted from time to time by ships leaving our ports. I understand that sea water is sometimes carried as ballast. Frequently, before water ballast is taken on board, the tanks are washed out. 1 wonder what happens to the residue in the tanks when this occurs. 1 support the Bill.

Wheat Marketing [26 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Bill. 2117


The Bill was read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages.

WHEAT MARKETING BILL. The message from the Assembly

relating to the amendments in this Bill was taken into consideration.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-Clause 3 of the Bill as drafted provided-

This Act shall have effect with respect to the wheat seasons 1969-1970, 1970-1971, 1971-1972, 1972-1973, and 1973-1974 but may be terminated at any :time during the course of those seasons by proclamation of the Governor in Council published in the Gove'rnment Gazette.

When the Bill was dealt with in another place, the following amendment was made to this clause:-

Clause 3, lines 1-5, omit all the words and expressions after " This Act" and insert " may be terminated at any time during the course of those wheat seasons referred to in section 48 of this Act, by proclamation of the Governor in Council published in the Government Gazette. ".

Standing Order No. 258 of the Legislative Assembly provides-

The precise duration of ,every temporary law shall be expressed in a distinct clause at the end of the Bill.

Clause 3 was amended by another place to conform with this Standing Order. It does not alter the purpose of the Bill in principle. Consequently, I move-

That amendment No. 1 be agreed to.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL (Monash Province) .-In my opinion, this amendment could not, under any circumstances, be accepted by this House. The clause, as amended by another place, will authorize the Governor in Council, by proclamation published in the Government Gazette, to terminate the duration of an Act of Parliament. If an Act of Parliament is to be terminated, surely it should be terminated only by the body which passes it, namely, Parliament itself. If it were within my

province to do so, I would move an appropriate amendment, but in view of the fact that 1 cannot do so, 1 shall oppose the motion.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-1 am not trying to force the House to accept an amendment which would be unconstitutional or 'improper. 'If seasonal conditions were such that because of a shortage of wheat there would be no necessity for wheat quotas, the Act ,would not operate .for the ensuing season. After discussion with the industry, 'I believe that is not an unreasonable power.

The Hon. SAMUEL ,MERRIFIELD.Would any adverse effects flow from a termination of the operation of the Act.

The Hon. G. fL. CHANDLER.-I believe not. 1 am not trying to force this measure through the House. If honorable members wish to examine it further, I am prepared to agree to the adjournment of the debate until later this day. The necessity for the Bill has arisen because of the present diffi.'cult situation in which the industry 'is placed. U that situation ceases to exist, it is not unreasonable to expect that the Act should not operate.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-The House is indebted to Mr. Nicol and the Leader of the House. !As a general proposition, II hope this House would never allow an Act of Parliament to be distuvbed or negated by Ministerial act. That ,is what is now proposed. An Act of !Parliament is the law, and it should remain the law until it is' altered by Parliament. It is now proposed that the Executive, a ,Minister of the Crown, should be able to alter the law by a stroke of the pen.

The Hon. ;M. A. CLARKE.-It is the old royal prerogative, the act of dispensation.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Yes. I have not had time to exa'mine this matter properly.

2118 Farm Produce (COUNCIL.] Merchants and

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Qrder! Perhaps Mr. Galbally would care to move the adjournment of the debate until later this day.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-The situation with which the 'Minister could be confronted could be written into the !Bill. Alternatively, to meet the situation, the ·words, "by proclamation of the Governor in Council published in the Government Gazette" could be omitted. I accept the suggestion that the debate should be adjourned.

On the motion of the Hon. J. W. GA!LBALLY (!Melbourne North Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until later this day.

FARM PRODUCE MERCHANTS AND COMMISSION AGENTS

(AMENDMENT) BILL. The House went into Committee

for the further consideration of this Bill.

Discussion was resumed of clause 2, providing for interpretations.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-When . this Bill was last before the Committee, a number of points were raised in connexion with the new fruit and vegetable market, as distinct from the clause now under consideration. Most of the debate took place on the position that existed at the new market which, to a large extent, had nothing to do with this Bill.

Together ·with my colleague, the ,Minister for Local Government, I had discussions as late as last Friday, with the Fruit and Vegetable Market Advisory Committee; the Lord Mayor; Mr. Rogan, the town clerk; and other representatives of the Melbourne City Council. Some of the recommendations of the Advisory Committee were approved by the Council. The charges proposed to be levied on merchants, agents and stall holders in the market have been reduced. Some market users have accepted the reductions and others

have not. The merchants will not accept a reduction of 12! per cent., and they are still holding out for a 20 per cent. reduction. The charges proposed to be levied on growers have been accepted by the Advisory Committee. The retailers want no charges to be imposed; they want free parking on a per day basis; they believe that parking should 'be made available because they should be encouraged to go to the ,market. They expect the costs to be borne by the other sections that use the market. Some of the issues are :complicated.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIoT.-Have you attended any of the meetings?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.Together with my 'colleague, the 'Minister for Local Government, I was present only at the meeting with the Lord Mayor, the town clerk and the Advisory Committee last Friday. The merchants were also represented but they were to hold other independent meetings with the City Council. A meeting took place last Friday afternoon, and another one or two have been held this week. I understand that satisfactory arrangements have not yet been arrived at for the merchants. I understand that, with the proposed reduction in charges, the market will incur an annual loss of $100,000, which will be cumulative over several years until the ground rentals for the redevelopment of the old market site start to flow. When that happens, one-third will finance the new market, as agreed by Cabinet, and the other two-thirds will also be used to payoff the accumulated deficit. This would normally have gone to the City Council and the Government in equal shares. That is a reasonable basis and the sooner the new market can settle down and become operative the more the new premises will be appreciated.

Several other points' were raised during the second-reading debate. 'Mr. Elliot spoke on the subject of traffic. From inquiries 'I have 'made it appears that the completion of the West Gate project early in 1971 will reduce the volume of traffic in Footscray-road

Commission Agents [26 NOVEMBER, 1969.] (Amendment) Bill. 2119

'by 13 percent. The normal increase in traffic will overtake this by 1974. The reconstruction of the intersection at Dudley-street and Footscrayroad has been completed at the Melbourne end of Footscray-road. The Hopetoun bridge on Dynon-road and the associated loop and link road to Footscray-road along the Maribyrnong river should be completed by June, 1970. Tenders for the duplication of IFootscray-road ,will be called next January and the work should be completed in 12 to 18 months. In short, there ,may be some traffic difficulties until early 1971, after which the position should be much i.mproved. The fly-over from Foots'cray-road to Dynon-road will depend on subsequent experience. The new alignment reserve for the fly-over is not altered by the Dynon locomotive yards, as mentioned \by Mr. Knight. That reserve will continue to remain. From the inquiries I have made, that appears to be the existing position so far as traffic is concerned.

When it comes to the other matters associated with this Bill, I point out that amendments have been foreshadowed and, as II have indicated, it is ·my intention to accept these amendments, ibut they ·will be dealt with at the proper time.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) .--jI thank the Minister for his remarks. It is obvious that he has sought the info.rmation fro.m as expert a source as he can sum,mon, but I wonder whether the honorable gentleman has at any time had a look at the general traffic congestion in ·Footscray-road, particularly in the early hours o.f the morning. I have done so on numerous occasions. The position is already semi-hopeless and, in my opinion, will become absolutely hopeless with the opening o.f the new 'wholesale fruit and vegetable market. From a traffic point of view only time will tell. The programme has been announced, but I feel I must place the responsibility fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the Government.

The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. G. J. Nicol).-Order! I trust the honorable member is not intending to pursue that line of argument on clause 2.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIIOT.-I have just finished it, IMr. Chairman. I have some facts that I wish to present to the !Minister and which ,I hope ·will receive his urgent consideration. May I pursue this point in relation to the wholesale fruit and vegetable market?

The CHAIRiMAN .----1 do not know what the point is. I point out that clause 2 is purely an interpretation provision.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-The Minister is generally allowed licence to answer questions raised by honorable members during the secondreading debate, and I think it has generally been recognized that, in view of the urgency of the matter, the question of marketing procedures would be discussed in Com'mittee. II seek your ruling on this point, ·Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRiMAN.----Progress was not reported to enable a general second-reading discussion to ensue. As 'l understand it, progress was reported to enable certain amendments to be prepared and .for the Minister to obtain replies to questions which were asked in the House. I do not wish in any way to inhibit Mr. Elliot from discussing the Bill, but at the same time it is the practice to avoid a second-reading type of debate during the Committee stage.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.----,I have already ,made my contribution to the debate during the second-reading stage. I have in ,my possession information which was not mentioned during that debate, but which T wish to pass on to the (Minister. Either I do it now, or on the motion for the adjournment of the sitting, because it is important and directly affects this Bill.

The CHAIRM,AN.---Jls the object of presenting the information to have it incorporated in Hansard, or to inform the Minister?

2120 Farm Produce [COUNCIL.] Merchants and

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.~Mr. Chairman, you are trying to put words in ,my mouth.

The CHAIRIMAN.-That is not so. I t may make a difference.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-I aim primarily interested in informing the Minister, and it is vital that I should do so in connexion with this measure, because the request I am going to make is directly the responsibility of the Minister.

The CHA)IR:MAN.-Would it meet the situation if progress were again reported to enable you to place the information in the Minister's hands?

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.----IH he does so, he will only hand on the information I shall pass on to him.

The CHAIRMA:N.~I do not wish to inhibit ,Mr. Elliot in any way, and if it is the wish of the Committee I am happy to permit the honorable member to proceed on these lines.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIIOT.-Do you wish to put it to a vote, Sir?

The CHAIRMAN.-No. If no objection is raised by any honorable member, !Mr. Elliot may continue.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .--.,Because of the great importance of this matter and the great difficulty in dissociating it from the Bill, which is tied up with merchants, agents, and so on, and in view of the ,fact that it has been customary when discussing clause 2 for the -Minister to comment on what has been said in the House following the second-reading speeches, I hope that on this occasion you, Mr. Chairman, will be lenient. As a matter of practice, of course, it would be difficult to justify a secondreading type of debate when clause 2 was being considered, but there are important points involved which I hope can be discussed at this stage.

The CHAlIR,MAN.----II appreciate the exceptional circumstances and, provided that there is no objection by the Committee, ,Mr. Elliot may comtinue.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) .-1 thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are certain facts that I wish to pass on to the IMinister. Firstly, at a meeting of the Fruit and Vegetable Market Advisory Committee, the Minister for Local Government advised that the committee of merchants and agents had met the town clerk, Mr. Rogan. The suggestion was that a seven-year lease at a specific rate should be given to the wholesale fruit and vegetable merchants. I understand that all that has been offered, in spite of the suggestion of the Minister, is a fouryear lease. I wish to ,make a final suggestion. The original recommendation was that the Government should 'control the market. As a matter of fa'ct, I have a suspicijon that the 'Minister would have been happy if that had been adopted, but at the time the position -was dictated by finance. The merchants and agents are anxious to confront the Abattoirs and Markets Committee of the Melbourne City Council, but they have only been able to speak to Mr. Rogan. He listens to them, goes to the Abattoirs and Markets Committee, then comes back to the merchants and agents, with the result that there is .further chaos.

Is the 'Minister aware that a Melbourne City Council officer has today been questioning growers at the Queen Victoria 'Market on whether or not they ,will utilize the new wholesale fruit and vegetable market if it opens on Monday next? There is now close liaison and unanimity of thought among the wholesale fruit and vegetable merchants and the 800 retailers who purchase produce at the Queen Victoria 'Market. The ,Minister will know that if these people have the courage to make a certain decision and stick to it there will be further chaos, and that it willibe of a much more serious nature. In view of this possible impasse between the iMelbourne City Council and the market users, will the Minister state what Government action is proposed ,within the next few days in regard to the new wholesale fruit and vegetable market?


IMembers of the Labor Party would like to see the Leader of the House take over the situation, and we make no bones about it. We have sufficient confidence in the IMinister to realize that at this stage he is the only person who has any chance of restoring order out of the present chaos. I ask the ,Minister for his comments.

The ,Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-Perhaps the Archangel Gabriel should be 'called into these proceedings, and I regret that he is not a member of this Chamber. It is true that discussions have taken place and that I have previously indicated that there is a triangular control of the market; the bylaws of the iMelbourne City Council are subject to the control of the Minister for Local Government and other controls are exercised by the Minister of Agriculture. I would prefer a position where no third party was involved. The by-laws associated with the market come under the administration of the Minister for Local Government, and this situation has existed for a number of years. If those by-laws were subject to my control, as -Minister of Agriculture, I could call the parties together and negotiate the matter and that would be far better than having triangular control. As I understand it, the Minister for Local Government has had discussions with the Melbourne City Council and other parties in an effort to overcome the position that exists. If IMr. Elliot says that the merchants and retailers are ganging up-

The Hon. D. G. ELLIoT.-They are not ganging up.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-The honorable member may call it what he likes, but if the 'merchants and retailers ,will not go into the market when it is supposed to open next Monday, it will remain dosed until kingdom come.

The Hon. 'D. G. ELLIOT.----I say that could be the position.

The Hon. G. L. OHANDLER.----Anything can happen. I understand that the IMelbourne City Council has

offered a 12! per cent. reduction in rentals, but that the mer,chants intend to hold out ,for a reduction of 20 per cent. However, I believe that if this market can get under way it will be a great success. It has been said by you, IMr. Chairman, that I supported a market trust. In such a case, the position would be exactly the same, except that the trust would be under the administraNon of the Minister of Agriculture and two Ministers would not be concerned.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-I wonder whether, under your control, the market trust would have seen an increase in the building cost from $8 million to $11.5 mini'on, within a period of 3 to 4 years, which represents a cost inflation of more than 20 per cent.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-If Mr. Elliot wanted to be constructive and say that certain things should not have been done, that would be all right. But the market is there, whether it is controlled by the Melbourne City Council or a market trust. The ratepayers of the City of Melbourne cannot be expected to finance the losses. A market trust would also have to stand on its own feet financially. What I have said about the finances is exactly what the IMinister for Local Government has indicated to me. The whole of the income from the redevelopment of the old site will go to payoff the losses which will be accumulated at the rate of $100,000 for the next few years.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-That is a fair sort of compromise.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-Perhaps the Minister for Local Government will tell the Committee of the actions he has taken. tJ.f he will do so, I am sure the House will be most appreciative.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-Anyone who has had anything to do with the present Queen Victoria Market or, still more, with the new wholesale market, will be impressed with the variety of interests, thoughts, and

2122 Farm Produce [COUNCIL.] Merchants· and

criticisms which arise on every hand. !I suppose that is to be expected. The legislation provides that the Melibourne City Council is to' be the operator of the new market. The 'Coun·cil maintained close collaboration with the Fruit and Vegetable Market Advisory Committee and .many of the changes in design and layout were made at the request of the Committee. It is true that the cost of the construction has risen above the estimate of three years ago, but all construction costs have risen within that period. Building costs are said to be increaSiingat 10 per cent. a year. No doubt, ,much of the increased cost of the new market was inevitable.

In any case, as the Minister of Agriculture says, the market is there. I t is now a matter of framling and approving regulations and by-laws which will enable it to operate satisfactorily. The measure provides that the by-laws of the Melbourne City Council which regulate the operation of the market shall be subject to the consent and appr,oval of the Governor in Council in certain, but not all, respects. When the by-laws were submitted to the Governor in Council within the past .few weeks, they !Were accompan1ied by a statement from the Market AdVisory CO'mmittee. To say the least, the comments of the ,Market Advisory Committee on the by-laws drawn up by the council were extre.mely wide and covered an enormous field.

Since then, having the responsibility of making an ultimate determination under the Act, although not relishing the job in any way, I have brought the parties together. I have listened to representations from various interests at the ,market. I have had conferences with the Melbourne City Council and the Market Advisory Committee, and with the two together, in an 'attempt to hammer out a form of agreement which would have the effect of modifying the by-laws.

T-he Hon. R. J. Hamer.

The Han. D. G. ELUOT.-YOU were not in the Chamber when I put this to the Minister of Agriculture: Has the Abattoirs and IMarkets Committee of the Melbourne City Council yet spoken direct-not through Mr. Rogan -with the fruit and vegetable merchants and other users of the market?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-That 'I cannot say. At the conferences I have called, the Council has been represented by the Lord Mayor, Councillor Talbot, who, I believe, is on the Market AdViisory Committee, and Mr. Rogan. The chairm,an, Councillor Rei-chstein, has been away.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIoT.-Can you use your influence to bring them together? The Council committee me.mbers will not confront the people with whom they do business. The merchants and other users of the market have had no convers1ation with the Council except through the town clerk.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-That is perhaps a fair suggestion to make. Representatives of the CounCliI and of the Advisory Committee have met in the presence of the Minister of Agriculture and myself, and there have been long dis'cussions. What has been decided-and it is an urgent matter for determination because the market is due to open next Mondayis that the by-laws presented by the :Melbourne City Council will be substantially altered. The changes will be very much along the lines advocated Iby the ,Market \Advisory Committee. The rents will be subtantially reduced, in ,most cases to the figures suggested by the Advisory Committee. In almost every case the new rent'S represent the estimates made some two years ago and confirmed in about May of this year as being reasonably accurate.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.---DoeS what you have said apply to all the rentals, including those to be pa1id by the growers?


The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-This applies to all rentals. I have the details in front of me, and I shall make a copy of the document available to any honorable member who want'S to see it.

The Hon. D. G. ELuoT.-This takes no consideration of a retail market ultimately being established there.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I shall deal with that later. At the moment, the market must be dealt with as a wholesale market, because the first thing to do is to bring it into ope~ation. The change in rentals has not resulted from any thought that the Melbourne City Council was overcharging. To determine whether that was possibly so, T asked the State Treasury to provide me with the services of an expert officer to investigate the Coundil's budgets and accounts relating to the m'arket. The Treasury made available 'Mr. ,Merrett, whom many honorable members know well and favourably. Mr. Merrett underto'ok a complete investigation of the accounts and reported that the budget was accurate. In other words, the rentals which had been proposed balanced, almost to the dollar, the likely outgoings.

The basis of the reduction in rentals is something quite different. Some time ago, when it appeared that the rentals at the new market would be greatly in excess of those at the old, a dec'ision was made that rents received on the redevelopment of the old site would be applied, in part, to subsidize rentals at the new market. That is, the ground rents will be applied to bring about lower rentals at the new market; that seems fair. Substantial reductions have been made in the rentals for the new market and they will apply immediately. As a result, for the time being, there will be a deficit of about $100,000 a year and the Melbourne City Council will have to foot the bill. The ultimate accumulated deficit will be met as a first charge on the rents from the old site when it

is redeveloped. In effect, both the State Government and the Melbourne City Counoil will contribute to reducing the accumulated deficit and therefore to a reduction in the proposed rentals at the market. This is a fair compromise. It brings forward the subsidy which was envisaged all along, but it causes both the Melbourne City Council and the Government to -make an ultimate contribution to the reduction of rentals at the new market.

Other changes have been made in what was proposed. The hours of. entry to the market had been criticized and so had the hours at which buyers had to leave. These have been altered. I believe that all the changes in the regulations will meet with the acceptance of those who will operate at the market. Other discussions may be necessary in the future to adjust the rules and regulations. The way will now be clear for the market to open. It is not for the Government or the Parliament to tell the Melbourne City Council when to open the market; it presently plans to do so on Monday. I hope the merchants who, to some extent, are hanging back, will be there although I believe that the ma'in reason for some of their reluctance is that they are not yet ready with all their equipment, such as refrigeration, to make the move.

Under an Act of Parliament, one must act as best one can, !but no one is more conscious than I of the difficulties in arriving at a fair and equitable basis for the operation of the new wholesale fruit and vegetable market. ,Jf anyone, including the ,Minister of Agriculture, 'wants it, so far as I am concerned he can have it.

Mr. Elliot mentioned the retail market. The ,Market Advisory Com.mittee was opposed to moving the retalil market to Footscray-road, but I believe its members may be having second thoughts on this matter. At all events, the question of whether there should be a retail market, not

2124 Farm Produce [COUNCIL.] Merchants and

necessarily the only one, at Footscrayroad, will be investigated by the consultants examining the future of the site of the Queen Victoria Market. They must recommend whether there should be a retail m'arket there. One consideraNon is where the customers come from. Some walk to the market, some go by train, and others arrive by car.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-It is not suggested that the present market should be abandon'ed?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Not necessarily. However, many customers go to the 'market by car from quite distant places. It may be that a smaller market should continue to exist at the present site and that another market should be created at the ne,w site. That must be decided in the light of the report made by the consultants. It is clear that the costs of the large new site with its expensive buildings constitute a great burden for the whol'esale market to carry by itself. The Market Advisory Committee is now more aware of that than it was two years ago.

I hope I have answered all the ouestions raised. I shall make available to honorable members the document which shows how the iby-Iaws are to be amended when the market opens. It should provide them with any more detailed information they require.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (North· Western Province) .-Members of the Country Party appreciate the information given tonight by the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister for Local Government, but we are vitally concerned with how producers and consumers will be' affected. The return on primarily products, particularly on foodstuffs, is very low at present. Who will eventually pay the increased costs? Members of the Labor Party will say that the consumers will pay. They are not paying much now if what the producer receives is any indication. The return to the producer is practically nothing, and many producers are ploughing fruit and

vegetables into the ground because the costs of producing them and getting them to the consumer are too high.

As a market, the new market is ideal. It is well planned and constructed. Many of the problems remaining will be overcome, as others have been overcome, by negotiation. Why negotiation did not take place much earli'er, I do not know. All those concerned seem to blame everyone else for the trouble, and much distress and dissatisfaction has resulted. When the market begins to operate, with the increased charges, costs will be high, particularly those f.or the parking of vehicles to be loaded and unloaded, although this will now be done in much better surroundings than previously.

There will be a demand from the merchants for an increased percentage on the price of the fruit and vegetables. They will say that without increased charges they will not be able to carry on. The fruit and vegetable m'arket is already being by-passed. The trade is falling into the hands of the big supermarkets and those who process and repack the goods but do not buy through the market. When such .organizations gain control of the growers' outlets, the consumers will have to pay a lot more for their fruit and vegetables.

The sooner the market can begin operating, the better because the Government is ,losing revenue from rentals totalling '$100,000 every three months. I have been informed that the 'ma'rket will not open until January, so the position will be that the wholesalers wHiI be working at the old site and the 'merchants and growers wiU be operating at the new site. This is uneconomic; they should both be at the one sHe. I appreciate that some pr.ogress is being made, but I am concerned that because, of the hurly-bur.1y the producer will receive less for .his goods and the consumer will pay more for the,m.

The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. G. J. Nicol).-:-Before putting the question that ,clause 2 be agreed to, I should


like to 'make it clear to the CO'mmittee that this :is a Bill of ,considerable importance and urgency 'and 'with the c'Oncurrence of the Com'mittee I have permitted the debate to range wider than that norma},ly per,mitted in Com,mittee. ,I should not like this to be taken as a precedent.

The clause was agreed tQ, as were c1auses 3 to' 9.

Clause 10, providing, inter alia(1) For Division 2 of Part I. of the

Principal Act there shall be substituted the following Division:-'DIVISION 2.-FARM PRODUCE MERCHANTS AND COMMISSION AGENTS GUARANTEE FUND. '

21B. (1) Subject to sub-section (2), on or as near as practicable to the 30th day of June in any financial year-

(a) ,the moneys paid into the Fund in that year by way of licence fees; and

(b) where the total amount of the prescribed contributions remaining in the Fund after the payment of claims exceeds $50,000, the amount so in excess-

shall be paid from the Fund into the Consolidated Revenue.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (N orthWestern Province).-I move-

That it be a suggestion to the Assembly that they make the following amendment in paragraph (b) of sub-section (l) of proposed new section 21B as contained in clause 10 :- Omit" ,the amount so in excess" and insert" so much of the excess as the Minister determines pursuant to sub-section (2) ".

I have indicated my line of thinking about the 'Contributory .fund and the licence fees. The licence fees should be paid ,into C'Onsolidated Revenue and used to regulate the activities of agents and me~chants. The contribut'Ory ,fund should be increased beyQnd $50,000 and even up to $100,000 if necessary. I hope the Minister O'f Agriculture wi:H give favourable 'Consideration to my suggested amendment.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (M:inister of kgrkulture).-As I -indkated previO'usly, the Government is prepared t'O accept the a'mendment because it will give some flexibility and WillI allow for some s'crutiny until the ,m·arket settles down and a proper

Session 1969.-77

course is defined. Treasury officials have examined the amendment and agree with it in its present for,m. Therefore, the Government 'will accept it.

The suggested amendment w'as agr:-eed to.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (NorthWestern Province).-I move-

That it be a suggestion to the Assembly that they make the following amendment in the Bill :- In proposed new section 21B add the following sub-section to follow subsection (1): "( ) Where the total amount of the prescribed contributions referred to in paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) exceeds $50,000, the Minister, after considering such matters relating to the Fund as he considers relevant, shall determine what amount (if any) of that excess shall be paid from the Fund into Consolidated Revenue."

T<he suggested ·amendment was agreed to, and the clause was postponed.

Clauses 11 t'O 29 were 'agreed to. Clause 30-In paragraph (p) of section 75 of the

Principal Act for ,the words "and allowances" there shall be substituted the words "allowances and expenses".

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne PrDvince).-I move the fo},lQwing amendments to clause 30:-

Af.ter the expression" 30" insert the expression " (1) " ; and that the following subclause be added:

( ) After paragraph (po) of section 75 of the Principal Act there shall be inserted the following paragraph :-

(pa) the fees charges commission reward or other remuneration which wholesalers in general or the wholesalers of any specified category of wholesaler are entitled to receive for or in respect of their services.

The Minister is aware that a simHar provision ex:ists ,in the New South W'ales and Queensland legislation to prevent com'missions from getting tOD high. The provisi'On wiU probably never be exercised, mainly because it is in the legisl'ation. T should have liked the Minister too ;make some acknowledgment about handling charges because in many cases they are added without cause. I hope my amendments wiU be accepted.

2126 Tourist [COUNCIL.] Bill.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-The Crown SoHcitor indicated that one O'f the regulation-making po'wers in the Bill cO'uld be used for this specific purpose but there was doubt whether it 'was strong enough to' 'meet the position. The Gorvernment knows of no reason why the amendments should not be ·accepted. I understand that similar prO'visions apply to control the ·cO'm1mlilssion 'charged by estate agents, and the legal profession has a similar arrangement for the charging of fees. The provision will not be used indiscdm:inately but it may be used as 'a brake on .any unfair actions by ,merchants and agents to obtain extremely high com'm,issions. All O'f these matters have to be watched.

As the ,Mini'ster Tor Looal Government :indicated earlier, Mr. ·Merrett has exa,mined the costs ass'Ociated with the 'market. He ,made a spedal investigation 2 or 3 yearos ago, and indicated that there should be a reserve power. I previously stated that the producers shou1ld examine the possibH:ity of ,forming co-operatives and entering this type of business for themselves if they thought the charges being levied were to'o hi.gh. In rPa'ct, the Government advised them to do this and made the services of the Registr.ar of Co-operatives and officers of the Department O'f Agriculture available for c'Onsultation. The producers did not avail themselves of this opportunity, but they did h'Old 'One meeting. I know O'f no reason 'why the a'mendments should not be accepted in their present form.

The amendments were agreed to, and the dause, as amended, was adopted.

Progress was reported, 'and the suggested ·amendments, t'Ogether with the a1mendments made to the Bill, were reported to the House and adopted.

It was 'Ordered that the Bill be returned to the Assembly with a mess1age intim1ating the decis,ion of the House.

TOURIST BILL. The debate (adjourned .from

October 29) on the .motion of the Han. V. O. Dickie {Minister of Health) for the second reading of this BHl was resumed.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) .-The Opposition supports this measure. Many things could be said about the Bill, which is long overdue, and affords an excellent opportunity for honorable members to push the parish pump. I suppose that most provinces of the Legislative Council have beauty spots which are cherished; for instance, in the Melbourne Province there are the Royal Botanic Gardens, the Domain and many other places.

One of the most pleasing features of this proposed legislation is that it enhances the status of Mr. Harkins who, as all honorable members are aware, has rendered magnificent service to Victoria. He is now a Public Service departmental head with proper authority accorded to himalthough we believe the Government could have gone a little further, and hope that steps will be taken in the future in this regard-and we wish him well in his future efforts on behalf of our State.

In my opinion, our approach to tourism in this State is too piecemeal. Many small projects are carried out which might be pleasing to communities within the State but which do not achieve a great deal for Victoria as a whole. If a reasonable allocation were to be made to the Tourist Development Authority each year to enable it to establish hotel-motels in key areas of the State in the same way as they have been established by the New Zealand authority, I believe the State would reap a rich financial harvest from tourists not only from other parts of Victoria, but also from other States and from overseas.

I understand that during the past financial year a total sum of approximately $100 million was spent by overseas visitors to Australia. All honorable members will

Tourist [26 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Bill. 2127

agree that that is indeed a large sum of money. I cannot furnish the House with details of the percentage of that amount which came to Victoria, but I have been informed by a person who is well known in tourist circles that it was far too small. Many factors contribute to this situation, and I believe the weather to be one of the most important; for example, a very large sum of money goes to Queensland from Victoria because of the attraction of Queensland's weather to tourists. More importantly, places such as Surfers P.aradise provide excellent accommodation at a most reasonable price, while similar accommodation is rather limited in Victoria.

I have never seen a more magnificent area than Tidal River which I recently visited whilst at Wilson's Promontory. The Authority is to be commended on the standard of accommodation it has provided there and the service that is available. If some authority in association with the Tourist Development Authority could establish a first class hotel-motel in the area, and operate it as a public enterprise, it would never look back. I believe tha t an allocation should be made to the Tourist Development Authority in association with the National Parks Authority to enable such a project to be undertaken in an area which is long overdue for development.

Along the Momington Peninsula the number of decent rooms which are available could be counted on one's fingers. This is incredible in such a magnificent tourist area which is warmer in winter and cooler in summer than the metropolis and has magnificent golf courses and excellent surf and bay beaches. This area is crying out for development. The Otway district along the Great Ocean-road, and the magnificent City of Mildura with its delightful weather throughout the year are other areas which, if developed, would attract :many tourists. I am sure that Mr. Harkins would welcome assistance which would permit him

to proceed with really worth-while developments such as those to which I have referred.

Compared with what is done by New Zealand interests, the selling of Victoria by means of television, the press and radio is poor and needs to be intensified. Tourism is a vital part of New Zealand's economy, and it should be vital to our own since it is a source of income which is practically untapped. As I have said befo~e, if we are to get our hands on tOUrIst coin, we must make "king hits" and abandon piecemeal app,roaches. My party supports the measure a~d sincerely hopes the Governme!lt WIll provide assistance to the TOUrIst Development Authority and other authorities to enable hotel-motels and accommodation complexes to be established in 2 or perhaps 3 key areas of this State. Income from tourism will not only contribute to the Consolidated Revenue, but also be of benefit to industry and the State as a whole.

The sitting was suspended from 6.35 p.m until 8.4 p.m.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE '(North-Eastern Province) .-This Bill, which relates to the establishment of a Ministry of Tourism, is similar to a measure which was considered by the House last year. On that occassion, members of the Country Party did not like certain clauses and the Bill was amended. The measure went backwards and forwards between this House and another place, and the Government decided that it would not concede to the wishes of the Country Party. When Parliament was prorogued, the Bill lapsed.

I am pleased to note that the Government has accepted the views expressed by the Country Party last year, and has placed Mr. Harkins, the Director of Tourism, in charge of his own Department instead of being an office-boy for the Secretary of the Premier's Department. Under this Bill, Mr. Harkins will have the authority to direct the staff and the working of his own Department. I


have strong views in relation to the functioning of Departments, too many of which are subject to administration by other Departments. In passing, I note that another measure to be considered provides for a Department to be removed from the jurisdiction of the Treasury. These reforms are long overdue. The only other difference between this Bill and the measure which was presented last year is a provision that the salaries of the Director and the Assistant Director of Tourism shall not be reduced during their continuance in office.

As I said when the previous measure was being discussed, the establishment of a Ministry of Tourism is in the interests of all those who are engaged in developing the tourist ,industry of this State. I do not intend to speak on the ramifications of the industry because I feel that I adequately covered the ground on the last occasion, and that the same conditions as obtained at that time apply today. More and more there is a need for the tourist industry to be developed and any assistance that honorable members can render to the Department which is charged with this responsibil.jty W"ill be all to the good.

The only matter which concerns all honorable members at the ,moment relates to the allocation of funds to the Department. This is not uncommon at present because when requests are made to many Departments, the answer is invariably that nothing can be done until after July. Last financial year, I think the allocations of Departments ran out in about February, whereas this year they seem to have been depleted in October. If the Government remains in office for another twelve months, and continues to overcommit its financial resources, funds will not be available on the 1st Julv of next year. 'In the case of -the Tourist Department, no money will be available for new projects for at least two years. Therefore, works throughout the State will be delayed, and there is no way of

The Hon. I. A. Swinburne.

overcoming the problem unless the Government can provide additional finance. However, the Government contends that it cannot obtain extra money, and therefore works will continue to be delayed.

Although the Bill will set up a Ministry of Tourism, with a director in charge, the Department will s!ill carry on at the same old pace wIth the same old ,methods because the Government has failed to make a grea ter financial allocation for the operations of the Departm~~t. T~e Minister of Health was Mmlster III charge of tourism for some time and because he enjoyed the work of the Department and his travels into other States and to overseas countries, he was reluctant to relinquish that position. The position gave him entree to ot~~r Tourist Departments and other actIVIties connected with tourism. I think the honorable gentleman will agree tha t the Department cannot operate efficiently unless sufficient money is provided for its purposes.

Honorable members will continue to make applications to Mr. Harkins and it is hoped some service will be forthcoming instead of the usual letter stating that the matter will have to be deferred until 1971, or until such time as the funds which are at present committed have been expended. It is hoped that the Ministry will be administered by a Minister of Tourism in his own right with sufficient finance to undertake the task that lies ahead.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Ballaarat Province) .-Although this Bill has the unanimous support of all honorable members and indeed of all parties I cannot resist the temptation to participate in the debate for two r~asons. Firstly, I confess to Mr. Swmburne that I have aLways supported the view that a Ministry of Tourism should be established in this State. Secondly, as was stated by Mr. ~lliot, tourism in this country is boommg at present and will continue to expand at a remarkable pace. If we can believe the forecasts made by people who


should know, the tourist industry will certainly affect all sections of the cO'mmunity in a very short time.

During most of the history of Australia, this nation has been isolated and has not been involved in tourism as other countries have known it. Australia has been part of Western civilization in the Pacific but because we have not traded substantially with the people around us, we have remained isolated from those people. As a primary producing nation, most of our produce has been shipped to Eurooe from where it has been distributed.

Since the end of the second world war, conditions have changed 'and today Australia is trading with nearby nations and coming into closer contact with them. The difficulties which used to confront Australians who travelled within this nation and overseas have largely been overcome. Before the second world war, it was unusual for an Australian to travel overseas or even within Australia and the few who did sO' were much sought after as guest speakers to talk about their travels, even in such places as the Northern Territory. Today, most of us will avoid people who want to tell us about their trips because addresses on this subject are now not so interesting as they once were.

Another reason why tO'day Australians travel ,more than ever before is that the people have more leisure time than they had previously. Indeed, the Australian worker has more holidays than workers in most countries of the world. Some years ago, in the State Parliament House at Hawaii, I gave evidence before a Parliamentary committee which was investigating workers compensation, long service leave, and general working conditions. The committee asked me what working conditions were like in Australia, Hnd one questioner asked what holidays, including public holidays, were granted to people who worked in my office. I was rather timid because I presumed the conditiO'ns in the United States of America, as a larger and an economically great nation,

would be more than comparable with ours. I remember saying that, counting public holidays, I thought the total number of holidays was somewhere in the vicinity of 4 weeks. On my return, I found that the period was 5 weeks.

When I explained the conditions of long service leave and workers compensation, it was obvious that the committee did not really believe me. To confirm the remarkable working conditions that workers in this country enjoy as a right, I forwarded to the committee copies of certain enactments of this Parliament.

Another reason why people todayand 'espedaUy in the post-'war period -are travelling as never before is associated with 'Our high standard of Hving. As M-r. Houghton interjects, this 'country enjoys one of the best st'andards in the world, if not the best. Today, all peoplle travel within Australia, and many peop,le tfiavel outside Australia. Another reason that is obviously a factor in ,increased travel, particularly 'as it applies to Australia, i,s that t'Oday the systems of transportation are faster, better and cheaper than previously. As you are aw,are, Mr. President, it ,is now poss~ble for a person to travel by ploane to any part of the world in a m,atter of hours and around the world in a 'matter of days. All of these advances have shaped the whole aspect 'Of tourism.

Further, as part 'Of our way of life, we enjoy superannuation and long service leave benefits 'which enable whole sections of the com'munity to have the 'm'Oney land time to travel. Final,ly, most people retire earlier in Ufe -and attain higher standards of education than in days gone by. All of these things affect touris-m. Another factor is that -most people no-w own motor cars and use them for travelling.

If one wished to argue about this aspect of tourism and the boom -in the tourist industry, one could do no better than refer to the figures supplied by the Tourist Development Authority, which are


interesting. It is suggested by the Authority that :in excess of 2 'millian visitors Icome to Victoria from outside its barders every year. It -is stated that studies have 'revealed that the average visitor stays 3 days and spends at least $10 per day, 'which means that income brought to Victaria by visitors amounts to mare than $60 ,mHlionannuaUy. If it is assumed that an amount equal to' only h1alf 'Of this figure is spent by Victarians travelling in Victoria, the taurist industry cauld be 'warth in excess af $90 minian a year.

Hanarable members may nat be aware that at present external taurism is equivalent to' the eighth mast impartant expart· incame af Australia. Accarding to' the Cammanwealth Year Baok, the incame earned by taurism in Australia is anly $3 millian ar $4 millian less than the $90 millian per year earned by Australia fram iran and steel exparts; it is abaut the same as the expart incame earned from eggs and dairy prO' ducts, and brings in twice as much as is earned fram the expart af mator vehicles and matar parts. It is stated that the taurist trade brings in appraximately twice as much as Australia earns fram the expart af chemicals.

Even within Australia, 'according to' . the Com·monwealth Department WhICh handles the administr,atian of tau~ism in the Narthern Territory, durmg 1967-68, 68,000 people visited the Territory, ,anid this 'was warth in excess 'Of $14 minian. The s'ame Depart'ment states that it is expected th.at i~ ~ 985 'moore than 380,000 people wIH VISIt the Narthern Territory and this wiU be warth 'more than $80 millian to' that part of Australia-a rem·arkable figure.

I now refer to' the backgraund of this Bill. In 1958, the Gavernment estabMshed the Taurist Development Authadty under Mr. !M!aurie Harkins. !he r~card . of the Authority is Interestmg. Smce then, an amount in excess of $7 millian has been spent on taurism within V,ictoria. Almast $4 ,m'inian has been expended on

The Hon. Murray Byrne.

general tourist develop,ment in the State; appraximately $1 ,millian has been spent on motor bo'ating facilities. This has been an &tem of expenditure in only recent years. Lo:ans for special tourist projects have exceeded $500,000. The amount spent on tourist access 'roads has been in excess oof $2 'miUion. Thase figures were supplied by the Taudst Development Authority. The Autharity has been involved in the printing of millians of pamphlets, pasters and taurist material, and even in the praductian af films and ather medi'a inconnexion ,with the sale of toouris1m thraughout the natian. Much of the eredit, as ,Mr. Elliot mentianed, is due to' Mr. Maude Harkins. At times, we are critical of the Public Service, but nat sufficient credit is given to' dedicated people, particularly those persanswha hold responsible positians in the State. There is nO' daubt that Mr. Harkins has been a most dedicated public servant, particularly in the field af taurism.

I recall that when he was first appainted I invited him to' travel with me through my electarate. I realize that this experience is shareQ by mast members af the Hause. Mr. Harkins is prepared to' visit any part af the State to speak to' pragress assaciations, cauncillars and graups af peaple and to' advise and assist them in praviding tourist facHiNes and a'menities in their 'ca'mmunity, nO' matter how small thase facilities may be. He has done a tremendous amount to' encourage taurism thraughaut Victaria, and I hape he Winl be the new Directar of the Department. I am happy to' join 'with ather han arable members in paying a sincere tribute to' Mr. Maurie Harkins.

I was disappointed to' some extent that another aspe.ct of taurism was not ,mentioned in the Bili}, I refer to' the 'aspect of decentIializatian. As Mr. Elliot has indioated an a number of accasions, we, as a State 'and a natian, are not suffi:ciently conscious af the impartance of tourism rfor the reasans that I have mentianed; we


have been isol,ated, ·and it has not played a big part in the lives of ·most people, 'and indeed in country communities many people still have to be persuaded that touris.m is of real value to them as a community.

I have been informed-I expect my 'col,lea.gues who 'repTesent the particuJ:ar dty could reaffirm thisthat in the city of Baimsdale there are two caravan parks. 'In one year the s·m'aUer 'Of the twO' was given questionnaires to hand to the people who visited the ,area. This was an attempt to ascertain ho·w ·much money was spent by people who used the caravan park and how ,long they stayed there. According to the resuIts .from the questionnaires, it was suggested that an amount of $168,000 was spent in one year by the people who vi'sited this one caravan park :in Ba,imsdale. I know that my Country Party ,colleagues wHl,correct me if I am in error, but I presume the amount of $168,000 was possibly greater than the sum 'expended in one 'Year by any industry ,in that area.

I know that hOonorable members have been anxiously waiting for ·me to ,say something 'about tourism in my district, and I shall not disappoint them. Ballarat is ,an historie city, and it 'will share in the most ex:citing and expanding tourist ,industry. People visit BaUarat from all over Vietoda and from elsewhere in Australia just t'O see the stockade. I have to agree with Mr. Knight that many people tr'avel a ,long way to visit Ballarat, and in the past I do not think they have seen as much 'as they would like to see. This has been unrfortunate. If I had my way there would at least be a stockade buHt 'at the site of the Eureka Stockade because people go there in the expectation of seeing the stockade. However, in the last year or so the local Rotary Olub has raised substantial sums of :money, and ,assistance has been forthcoming from the Government. Now, :any'One who travels to the Eureka Stockade will see a lot more than has been possible !n the past.

I do not know whether you, Mr. President, have heard of the hi'stoI'lic village that is being buHt in Ballarat. An amount in excess of $500,000 is being spent by the community in building a 'mining village on a 'mining site. It is 'a remarkable PTOject. Substantial sums of money have been raised, and again 'we have been fortunate in obtaining grants from the Governm'ent and support and co-'Operation ,from the T'Ourist Development Auth'Ority. Already ·a mine is being built. As 'I say, a 'mining town is to be ·constructed, complete with an authentic hotell, chemist's shop, attorney's office, and all the other buildings that made up a mining town or village of 100 years ago.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-What about Bendigo?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-I am hopeful that city will take a lead from Ballarat. My colleague, the Minister of Health, and I are priViHeged to represent an area in which there are Im'any other tourist attracti'Ons. The Gra!mpians is 'One of the great s'cenie attractions of Victoria, and 'Only last 'week the Tourist Development Authority gave a grant in excess of $25,000 :~or the provision of caimp'ing ifaoHi~ies in th'at area. Before the Tourist Development Authority ,was set up and beca,me interested in ,such activities, there was little hope ,for an area such as Halls Gap, with a smal,l population, to provide f'acilitJies that are necess:ary for any form of tourism. Since 1958, real progress has been ·made in that regard. I appreciate Mr. Elliot's rem1a'rks that the Tourist Development Authority has had to spread its Um-ited funds throughout the State, and I suppose one cannot look for anything of great magnitude in this field. Nevertheless, touris'm -is important. The Authority has encouraged local communities to raise substantial sums of money, and it has made worthwhile contributions in these areas.

Touris'm as an aspect of decentralization may not yet be fully appreciated by many people 'within

2132 Tourist [COUNCIL.') Bill.

Viotoria, and -indeed Australia. However, I 'assure honarable members that it is appreciated by many people in other parts of the wOflld. In America, the chamber af cammerce appreciates the value of decentralizatian. I quate ,from a report by the chamber of commerce of the United States af America, which has this to. say about touris'm-

Tourism promotion is a key operation in any regional, state or community development programme. Basically, there are three ways in which to bring new money and business into any given area. These are agricultural development, industrial development and tourist development. Tourist development is probably the quickest, least difficult of the three.

I agree with that statement. .I have no. doubt that tauris'm will be an exoiting and expanding industry in the future which wiU affect Imast sectians of the community. It has even wider aspects, an which I shall nat dwell on this occasian. It is certainly an aspect which cauld engender go. ad will thraughaut the warld. Again I quate the American Ambassadar to. the United Natians, who. said-

Tourism is a builder of international goodwill. Travellers abroad often foster and achieve friendship and understanding. They are apt to learn that people everywhere share similar hopes and ambitions, and often have the same frustrations and the fears. These personal contacts between the people of one country and another can be the means of promoting goodwill and crossfertilization of cultures on a scale obtainable through no other medium ...

I suppart the Bill and I hape it carries out the intentians that hanorable members wauld wish.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) .-1 am delighted that a Ministry af Taurism is to' be established in Victoria, and I hope the new Ministry will bring abaut a radical change in the thinking of the Government in regard to. the development of tourism, because it has been sadly neglected sa far. When one 'meets in New Zealand a party of American tourists who are on a five manths' tour of the world, one is interested to learn what their tour of Australia embraces. They fly from Ne1w Zealand to. Australia; they arrive in Melbaurne

and spend a night at the Sauthern Crass Hatel, go. to. the Healesville sanctuary to look at the koalas, the kangaroos, and the emus. They then fly to Sydney and spend a night at King's Crass and then go. to. the Gold Coast for a ,couple of days to recuperate. Next they fly out of Australia and visit same cauntry in SauthEast Asia. The reason far their short stay in Victoria is that there are no. attractions to hold the interests of overseas taurists.

Our advertising is secand-rate campared with that of the Gold Coast and the ather taurist areas of Australia, including the Northern Territary and the Centre. When a taurist visits Western Australia he receives a great deal of help and co-operation from the authorities and many facilities are available to him. He can fly to inspect the iran ore mines and see something of outback k'\ustralia.

lIn Victoria whenever inquiries are made abaut the develapment of air services, we are told that it is _a matter far the Federal Gavernment. The State Government cauld not be less interested in cannecting Shepparton, Kerang and Echuca with iMelbaurne by an air service.

The Han. H. M. HAMILToN.-Does Mr. Clarke want the services subsidized?

The Han. M. A. CLARKE.-All such services are subsidized, and suitable subsidies shauld be made available far the canstruction of air fields.

The Han. H. M. HAMILTON.Should not the Federal Government make a cantributian tawards tourism?

The Han. M. A. CLARKE.---'I agree, but if ane asks the State Gavernment to. approach the Federal Gavernment far such a purpase, the State Gavernment passes the buck. Look at the neglect by this Gavernment of taurism in Victaria! In narthern Victoria the River 'Murray is ane of the greatest taurist attractians in Australia. Echuca used to be the second part in Victaria, and paddle steamers and other boats plied an the river.


It would still be possible to have a lucrative and busy tourist trade on the !Murray, but it ,would be necessary to repair some of the locks. Torrumbarry weir is in a state of disrepair, but the Government is not interested in putting it into order. It wants to get rid of the weir. Without the weirs and the locks, it is not possible for river steamers to ply the Murray River. Kerang has a great deal of tourist potential.

There are ibis rookeries in the swamps, where hundreds of thousands of birds go to nest and to rear their young. It is a magnificent sight. One cannot look at ibises by taking a boa t through the swamp because this disturbs them. 'If a tower were built at Kerang, it would be an attraction that tourists would remember in their five months' world tour. Finance is not made available by the tourist authorities ;with which to build towers to look at these birds. It is difficult to get sufficient water into the swamps to retain the ibises because the Lands nepartment and the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission will not co-operate and the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch had to be forced to inspect the area. Mr. IMcDonald and I eventually induced the authorities to have a look at the ibis rookeries and perhaps now some action will be taken.

The Hon. K. S. GRoss.-Are there any ducks in the season?

The Hon. 'M. A. CLARKE.-I am interested in the conservation of bird life, but apparently ,Mr. Gross is interested in its destruction. I do not suggest that the shooting of wildlife should be included amongst the tourist attractions of Victoria.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.What about the lion park at Bacchus Marsh?

The Hon. 1M. A. CLARKE.-Other honorable members may be more familiar with lions than I am. When tourists come to a district it is essential that there is something for them to do. This is the case, in New Zealand where there is some form of attraction for tourists of all classes.

At Queenstown there are lakes and at Mount Cook there is a glacier to climb.

I am concentrating my remarks on northern Victoria because it has great tourist potential. It is within easy travelling distance of ,Melbourne and could attract thousands of tourists a year to spend their $10 a day.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Wait until large numbers of people visit the Little nesert.

The Hon. 'M. A. CLARKE.-I hope the Little Desert will become a tourist attraction and a carefully controlled reserve for wildlife and that tourists will go to see it. ,Mr. Byrne made complimentary references to ,Mr. Harkins, and I endorse those remarks. There has been an outstanding success in regard to two developments at Echuca. The caravan park is busy all the year round-one has to book to get in-and the boat ramps on the River Murray have been improved and developed. These facilities attract tourists, particularly if they can hire boats and go for a trip on the river.

It may seem at first glance that some places do not have a great tourist potential, but that is not so. Shepparton has an outstanding art gallery. Visitors from anywhere would be pleased to look at the traditional and modern art works in the Shepparton gallery. Shepparton is also the centre of a rich agricultural district-orchards, dairy farms and sheep. Overseas tourists from cities are interested in seeing how people live on farms. However, a tower is needed in Shepparton so that tourists can look over the district. Tourists climb towers everywhere. The Eiffel Tower is an outstanding example. At Edmonton in Canada :I went up a tower and looked over the prairies. From a high tower in Shepparton one could view the orchards and the dairy farms.

One tourist attraction that is not exploited is the inspection of factories to see how products are made. At Shepparton there is a fruit preserving factory which is one of our great


decentralized industries. It is organized for tourists, with cat wal;ks and so forth. Rochester has one of the finest butter factories in Australia.

The hub of the matter is the amount of money which will be made available to develop tourism in Victoria. I am pleased that the Bill contains a provision which will give the new ·Ministry of Tourism some money, but I do not know how much will be provided. Perhaps the Minister of Health could inform 'me of the amount. Sub-clause (4) of clause 11 of the Bill provides-

There shall be paid into the Fund out of the Country Roads Board Fund as spon as practicable after the 1st day of July In each year an amount equal to 2 per centum of the "amount" credited to :the Country Roads Board Fund under paragraph (d) of sub· section (1) of section 38 of the Country Roads Act 1958 in respect of the financial year then last past. I hope the accounts of the Country Roads Board are kept up to date and the money will be made available on 2nd July, if the accounts are closed on 30th June. However, by Christmas we will probably be asking if the money has been paid over. Subsection (1) of section 38 of the Country Roads Act provides, inter alia-

An account shall be kept in the Treasury called "The Country Roads Board Fund." To the credit of this account shall be placed-

(d) one-quarter of the amount of all motor car drivers' licence fees less cost of collection paid under the Motor Car Act 1958 and one-half of the amount of all motor driving instructors' licence fees less cost of collection paid under the said Act. Relatively speaking, this money will come from the motorists. 1 have no objection to that, 'but ,I am interested in 'how much ·money will be provided each year to be spent on touris,m. Will it be a worth-'while sum?

:Mr. Byrne quoted some extremely interesting figures. He said that an amount of $168,000 had been allocated for a caravan park at Baimsdale. 1 wonder what was the total amount for Victoria.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-$90 million.

The Han. M. A. CLARKE.-That was the total amount for the State. I immediately thought of how much money was leaving the State.

The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON.-A sum of $90 million goes to Surfers Paradise alone.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Perhaps Mr. Hamilton has just been there to get his sunburn. Although it is vital to attract overseas tourists, those who give us our bread and butter are the home tourists. Mr. Byrne mentioned that each year 2 million tourists from the other States visited Victoria. That is a vital figure and it could be increased; that can be done by promotion and advertising, and above all it must be done by raising the standards of accommodation and tours.

Mr. Elliot referred to the New Zealand Tourist Development Fund of $14 million, which is lent on a rotational basis to develop new motels and hotels. No provision exists in Victoria for a fund of that kind, and this aspect should be seriously considered by the Government. Sums of money are lent from that Fund and they are paid back to the Government-it is not expenditure. I urge the Government to consider the establishment of a fund of that nature so that suitable hotels, motels and other accommodation for tourists can be developed in Victoria.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) .-1 join with the previous speakers in expressing appreciation for the introduction of this measure, and I hope the new Director of Tourism will be Mr. Harkins. As Mr. Byrne so ably said, he is dedicated to the cause of tourism in Victoria.

When 1 visited the Bahamas, a ceremony was held to welcome the one millionth tourist to the islands. It is estimated that the tourist industry is worth an annual sum of $150 million to the Baharpas. In the United States of America, tourism is regarded as an industry second only to iron and steel. Tourism is a valuable industry in any country. Mr.


. Byrne referred to the number of tourists who visited Bairnsdale. I assure honorable members that Bairnsdale is so popular that it is extremely difficult to obtain space in the caravan parks. Gippsland has a unique natural splendour and beauty. It is a natural grandstand-the visitor does not have to climb towers but can see alpine vistas and awesome rugged grandeur spread before him.

I have visited New Zealand and have seen the sporting attractions in the mountain regions. I have seen the four-legged "deers" that roam the hills and attract the tourists. I deplore the fact that the deer in our mountain regions are insufficiently protected. I have been grieved to note that, particularly during snow storms, they cannot find fodder. The so-called sportsmen hunt these deer with foxhounds; they release the dogs on Saturday and by Wednesday one can still hear the howls of the dogs as they pursue the deer. Steps should be taken to protect them, and I should like to see the mountain regions, particularly of Gippsland, closed to this type of vandalism. I can describe it as nothing but the slaughter of beautiful animals in the mountains of Gippsland.

I endorse the remarks of honorable members who have said that the tourist industry flourishes in New Zealand. When I visited that country I noted that, to attract tourists, a fund is made available for the construction of motels and hotels to a certain standard. An amount of 90 per cent. of the capital cost of the construction of these buildings is provided at the low rate of 3 per cent. interest. This assists the tourist industry to provide accommodation of a suitable standard which is greatly appreciated by visiting tourists. Victoria could well emulate New Zealand in this regard. If a similar fund were established, it could be utilized by the new Ministry of Tourism to provide a better type of motel and hotel accommodation in order that our tourist areas could be made more attractive. Victoria has some beautiful scenery which could

be brought more to the notice of people who wish to travel in the open spaces.

The State Electricity Commission has opened up a wonderful tourist attraction in the Latrobe Valley by developing the Hazelwood pondage area for water sports. I was present at the opening of the new yachting season and I was amazed at the popularity of this sport. One of the problems is the provision of centrally located accommodation to enable people to visit not only the water sports areas but also the mountain regions and the snowfields of the Baw Baws. I look forward with pleasurable anticipation to the operation of the Ministry of Tourism to promote this valuable industry. iJ am sure that it 'will earn a great reward, particularly in those areas that are outside the boundaries of heavy industries.

Some of the best trout fishing areas in Victoria can be' found at Bulga Park and Tarra Valley. The confluence of four streams provides a pleasant place in quiet seclusion for visitors from the city. I was heartened to learn recently that the Education Department had allowed the parents of the children at the Westall S ta te School to purchase for a nominal sum the school at Balook which has been closed. The parents have already conducted several working bees, and I am sure that visits to this school will create a love of the country in the minds of both the parents and the children. I wish the new Ministry every success in its task.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province).-Tourism is now a major industry, but to be successful it has to be highly organized. The Tourist Development Authority has done valuable work in the past and I trust that, when the Ministry of Tourism is established, it will be given the necessary finance to cope with the facilities that will have to be provided throughout Victoria. Many priva te organiza tions are actively promoting tourism. I refer

2136 Tourist [COUN~.] Bill.

to an enterprise in the City of Richmond which'has built a new spacious modern motel costing nearly $500,000. One of the promoters informed me that not only Melbourne, but Richmond also has a great potential for the tourist trade. Of course, as a true blue "Tiger", I agreed with him.

Although recognized as an innerindustrial area, Richmond has a great historical background. Some of the fine stately homes that were built more than a century ago are still well preserved, and if they are not bulldozed by the Housing Commission and replaced by high-rise flats, they will last another century.

The beautiful home on Richmond Hill that was built by Peter Lalor of Eureka Stockade fame and who was a member of the Victorian Parliament attracts many visitors. The property, which is in Church-street, Richmond, is at present occupied by a number of doctors. In the early days, Richmond attracted many visitors from overseas and interstate. The first amusement park in Victoria was established at Cremorne Gardens and, because the South-Eastern Freeway now runs through this area, history is repeating itself because many tourists travel over it in cars. It is also interesting to know that a former member of this Chamber, George Coppin, was the owner of the Cremorne Gardens. Even now, tourists go to Richmond to see the old Gothic type churches in the district. The spire of St. 'Ignatius Church is one of the highest points in ·Melbourne and can be seen from ships in Port Phillip Bay. As the Minister of Agriculture is aware, Richmond also contains the wonderful Burnley Horticultural College, which has been established for over 100 years. II realize 1 am being a little paliochial, but 1 cannot help it. Tourism is not new to Richmond. At the turn of the century tourists were flocking to Richmond to hear Dame Nellie Melba sing. She was then Nellie Mitchell and was horn in Richmond.

The Hon. G. J. O'Connell.

There are many places in Melbourne that are of interest to tourists. The Royal Botanic Gardens are second to none and were saved only by the enterprise of a Select Committee established by this House. The Melbourne cricket ground is visited by people from all parts of the world who wish to see a test match and, of course, visitors came to see the "Tigers " win a football premiership.

Other attractions for tourists are the lovely beaches along. the shores of Port Phillip Bay from Port Melbourne to Portsea. These beautiful and safe bathing beaches provide a great potential for tourism, especially because of the facilities for camping and caravaning which are provided th.r?ughout the Mornington Peninsula. VISItors to the Peninsula over the Christmas festive season know that this is one of the greatest holiday resorts in the State. At the beaches children can safely paddle out into the water for distances up to 500 yards. There are also ocean beaches with their. rugged coastline, and Mr. May mentIoned a few places of special interest in Gippsland. Among these are the wonderful Tambo Valley which is so attractive in September when the wattle trees are in blossom. These attractions extend through Bruthen, Omeo, Mitta, and along to Albury.

In the spring Melbourne has to offer the attractions of the Flemington and Caulfield racecourses, as well as the Sandown and Moonee Valley tracks. Many visitors from other S ta tes and overseas attend sporting functions at these tracks and these attractions should be further exploited. The only way in which this can be done is to provide the necessary finance, which is the duty of the Government. Much is heard about decentralization and 1 trust the Government will not give lip service to tourism in the same manner as it has done to decentralization.

The Hon. F. S. GRIMWADE (Bendigo 'Province) .-1 find it difficult to speak after listening to such a distinguished address by Mr. O'Connell,


who was pressing the virtues of Richmond, but I should like to consider this ~Bill in all seriousness and without being parochial. It is important to realize that the Bill abolishes the Tourist Development Authority, which will be replaced by a Ministry of Tourism, a director, and other people !who may be employed. Their purpose will be to publicize and develop the tourist industry in Victoria.

During the debate on this Bill in another place, much consideration was given to overseas tourists, but I consider that the Victorian is the important person and that he should be encouraged to visit the wonderful attractions of his own State. By all means let the overseas and in tersta te visitors follow closely behind. Although I have no official figures, I estimate that Victorian tourists would number at least twenty times as many as interstate and overseas tourists, and this is indicative of the importance of the local tourist. With the additional leisure time now available, people travel in their cars and cara.; vans, enjoying reasonably cheap accommodation, so that tourism in this State can be expected to become a rapidly developing industry. With the opening of the new Melbourne airport in the near future, many overseas visitors will arrive in Melbourne, perhaps to spend only a few days here. However, I believe these visitors will not merely stay in Melbourne but will take a tourist circuit of Victoria possibly encompassing such places as Ballarat, Bendigo, Maldon, Castlemaine, all the old goldmining areas and perhaps some of the early pastoral homesteads which offer a wealth of historical interest. This is the sort of operation that could be sold to tourists as a packaged tour.

The responsibilities of the Ministry of Tourism will go much further than merely publicizing and developing our present attractions. The Ministry should seek to have a close cooperation with commercial interests already established in the tourist industry. This should be on the basis

of a partnership. I do not support Mr. Elliot's suggestion that the Ministry should wholly finance the development of hotels or motels, but there should be co-operation with those in the industry who know the problems. Finance is the most important factor in this matter.

There is also a need for trained personnel such as chefs, waiters, housemaids and receptionists, all of whom are important to the tourist industry. It is all very well to say, "Let us build hotels, motels and restaurants", but these facilities require properly trained staff. At present the facilities for training these people are insufficient, and this facet should be explored by the Ministry of Tourism in conjunction with private enterprise. This could well become a decentralized industry, for I see no reason why a school for training chefs and waiters should not be established in a country area because this is where these people will be needed if tourists are to be encouraged to travel throughout the State.

There is also scope for co-operation with the Australian Tourist Commission, the Federal body that has been set up to encourage tourism in Australia. One has to see the whole matter of tourism within the context of Australia. This, of course, opens up the question of finance from the Commonwealth Government which should be explored closely by the Ministry of Tourism.

The problem of finance is, of course, the whole crux of the Bill. I am surprised that honorable members have not delved sufficiently into this matter to ascertain the present source of finance received by the Tourist Development Authority. I had some difficulty in ascertaining the information because the Authority has not produced a report since 1958, and I had to turn to the report of the Auditor-General for the year 1967-68 to discover how the Tourist Development Authority received its finance. The major source is the Country Roads Board Fund, and for the


benefit of IMr. Clarke, who asked a question on this matter, I point out that in 1967-68 a sum of $517,430 was made available to the Authority from the Country Roads Board Fund. This contribution has been rising at the rate of approximately $20,000 per annum. The next major source of finance listed in the report is under the heading of Consolidated Revenue and the Premier's vote, which provided a sum of $330,000.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Will that continue?

The Hon. F. S. GRIMWADE.-I hope it will. Also under the heading of Consolidated Revenue the report lists an item (C Railway working expenses, $204,000". I presume that these last two payments will continue to be made. Another major source of finance was the operations of the Victorian Government Tourist Bureau, which received in commission a sum of $155,824. It is to be hoped that this business will be expanded and that more money will reach the Ministry of Tourism from this source. Motor boat registration fees and fines provided an amount of $143,244. Previously this money was applied by the Tourist Development Authority for the provision of facilities for motor boating. I have not noticed any such provision in this Bill, and I presume the money will be received by the new Ministry. I have received an assurance from the Minister of State Development that this money will continue to be provided for motor boating facilities. There is also a sum of $71,000 provided in the Public Works Loan Application Bill, but I am unaware of the details concerning it. They are the sources of finance and it seems that, under the new arrangements, it is un1likely that there wi'll be 'more -money 'aViailable than there was under the 'Old set-up.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.---,What was the total expenditure?

The Hon. F. S. GRIMWADE.-It was $1.552 million. That is by no means a s'mall sum. 'Jihe Miinistry can lend mDney to ,certain bodies to enable work to be undertaken. Last

year, the Tourist Development Authority lent a total sum of $81.911, which is not a large 'a'mount, p'artkulaJ.'lly when it is realized that it applied to a number of projects.

When If-unds available are so limited, surely a list of priorities for developmental projects needing support should be compiled. This opens up the question r-aised by Mr. Clarke, the establishment of a revo,lving fund so that more money can be made lavaiHable, not to be given a,way, but to be lent out, and lent out again when the loans are repaid. This mDney should not be used for hotels and motels but should be ·applied t'O the creation of facilities for which mDney cannot be provided in any other way. The undertakings may not be selfsupporting, -and therefore will require more h~lp in the -way of grants, rather than by way 'Of loans. Selfsupporting project's oan be ass,isted by loans?

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.~Some facHiNes which are season-alcould be developed int'O all-the-year-'round pacilities.

The Hon. F. S. GRIMWADE.-That is so. I am sure that all the ,money available will be spent. The m'Ore one examines the provisions .of tlhe Biill, the Imore one realizes that there must be a deter:mina,tiDn of priorities. There i. a definite need for ,more ,moOney to be made avaHable for tourist purposes, and I hope the Treasurer 'can direct funds to the new 'Ministry to enable it t'O carry out its functions properly.

All facets of the t'Ourist industry must be considered. I would not want the new Mini'stry of T'Ouris-m to be known as the builder 'Of public conveniences in all the isol'ated areas .of Victoria. That type 'Of apprQlach would be short-slighted. There is a need for a wide vision. There should be no parochial approach t'O tOll'ris'm. The best possible facilities should be provided on a State-,wide basis for the enjoyment 'Of tourists. This BiU is a worthwhile first step in the development

Health (Amendment) [26 NOVEMBER, 1969.] Bill. 2139

of our t.ourist industry. I hope that sufficient m'Oney will be provided .to enable its provisions to 'work satI'Sfactol'li1ly.

On the motion .of the Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province), the debate was 'adjourned.

It 'was .ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting.

URBAN RENEWAL BILL. This Bill was re:ceived frOom the

Assembly and, .on the motion of the Hon. L. H. S. Thompson (Minister of Educ,ation), for the Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Looal GOovernment), was read a first time.

MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS

(AMENDMENT) BILL. This Bill was returned from the

ASisembly with a message relating to an amendment.

It 'was 'Ordered that the :message be taken into considerati'On later this day.

HEALTH (AMENDMENT) BILL. The debate (adjourned frOom

November 19) on the motion of the Hon. V. O. Dickie (Minister of Health) for the sec'Ond reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province).-This BiN proposes a series Oof amendments to the Health Act. The first amendment to the p'l'Iincipal Act, proposed by -clause 2 relates to the methods whi,ch a ~unkipal council Imay :adopt in collecting charges, as distinct from r:ates, for the coHection and rem'Oval of refuse, rubbish and what is politely known as nightsoil. Councills will be enabled to make arrangements for a ratepayer or a hOome owner to' pay for these services by ,installments. Members of the OpPOosition do n'Ot object to this 'amendment which, I suppose, will be welcomed in many quarters.

Clause 3 amends Part IV. of the He'alth 'Act, whkh relates to the practice of plumbing and supervision

of the work of plumbers and gas fitters by the Plumbers Regist.r~tion BOoard. Under the present provIsIons, every sheet ,metal worker. engaged in duct work must be regIstered as a plumber. Afte':" the amendment prOoposed by ,ela'use 3 becomes law, 'a sheet metal worker first-class and his apprentice will be able to undertake duct work for the heating and ventilation of buildings. I understand t~at ~he Plumbers and Gasfitters RegIstratIOn B'Oard sought an amendment of this type some nine years ago, S'O the wheels of legislation, like themHls of God, grind slowly.

Clause 4 of the Bill amends the provisions of the Hearlth Act 'relating to the ,control of radioactive substances and irradiating apparatus. The clause introduces certain 'alterations to the regulation-'making powers of the Co'm'm'ission of Public Health. Beoause of the danger associated with the misuse of 'radio~active sUlbstances, the Com,mission asked for power to 'fix conditions applyling to licences at any time. In other words, by the terms of the c~aus'e, it will be able to issue, renew, reIssue, or cancel licences at 'any time. It wiill alsO' be able to vary the conditions Oof a licence if it feels that ii'S necessary. 'Hitherto, licences have been issued on a year-to-year !basis. The Opp'Osition supports this amendment to the Act which is in the interests of public safety.

At the request of the 'chairman ot the Pesticides Review Committee, Mr. R. G. Downes, the Com,mission Oof Public Health has considered the need to license users on a commercial seale of dangerous pesticides so that control ,can be exercised over the use ofm;any potentially dangerous substances. Clause 5 authorizes the Com·m'ission to license these 'Opeflators. The Opposition does not quite accept the amending provision. Some dangers may arise in deoiding who 'must be licensed. In the tobacc'O growing areas of Victoria, farmers cOo-operate in spraying their properties 'with pesticides. One far.mer may do the job for 3

2140 Health (Amendment) [COUNCIL.] Bill.

or 4 of his neighbours, or several farmers may t'ake it in turn to spray all of their farms. In such ci~cumstances, large quantities of pesticides a'r'e used. If people using pesticides in this way were required to obtain licences, the Opposition would 'Object to the pr'Ovision. The position should be more clearly spelt out. Opposition members seek the advice of the Minister on this matter and, if his explanation does not satisfy us, we 'will vote 'against the clause.

Division 3 'Of Part X. of the principal Act is amended by clause 6, which was included in the Bill at the request of the Hospitals and Charities Com'm,ission. A corporation is not prevented from owning and operating a 'private hospital, but it is p'Ossible that when it seeks to register a h'O spit al there may be some ,confusion ,about who is in contro:!. Under the ,a,mending provision, the Hospitals and Charities Commission wiU have power to investigate the character and ascertain the fitness of the corporation applicants to operate a private hospital. The Opposition wholeheartedly agrees with this proposal.

Claus'e 7 amends secti'On 206 o:f the Health Act. That section requires a medical 'Officer of health t'O inspect any house ,which it is proposed to move from one site to lanother. The amendment w'ill enable 'a health officer to undertake inspection and to make 'a recomlmendati'On t'O the medioal 'Officer. The principal trouble which 'may be found with such houses is their infestattion 'with rats or vermin, and 'a health 'Officer would be well qualified to oarry out a s~atisfactory inspection.

Clause 8 relates t'O food sh'Ops and vehicles which carry food. The present provisions 'Of the A!ct allow the name of the owner appearing 'On a food shop or food vehicle to be accepted as pdma facie proof of ownership. However, difficulties have arisen :in proving ownership of food premises. Often, the :operator is not the owner. Temporarily, confusion

The Hon. D. G. Elliot.

reigns supreme, and prosecutions are delayed. The amendment to section 239 of the principal Act proposed by clause 8 will require the proprietor of rood premises used for the sale of foods, drugs and so 'On, and registered under the Health Act, to affix his name in legible roman characters to the premises or any vehicle used for the business carried on. It also provides that the name so affixed shall be identical with that on the current registration certificate issued by the municipal council or the Commissioner of Public Health.

Perhaps what is provided in the Licens1ing Act could be applied in this instance. It may be said that letters half 'an inch 'in height are legible. That is a 'moot point. The Licensing Act provides for lettering of, I believe, -a minimum height of 3 inches. Clause 10 tightens up prOVISIOns relating t'O the protection of the health of the com'munity by preventing the s'ale of meat which has not been branded by a responsible person. The all-party Meat Industry Committee is jnvestigating this matter, together with many other problems associated with the meat industry. Certainly, the legislation should be tightened and reinforced in every sense of the word to eliminate the use of bogus or unregistered meat brands. The penalties for breaches of the law will be considerably increased by this Bill to a fine of not ,more than $200 or imprisonment for not more than twelve months. I support this proposal.

Clause 11, which amends section 387 of the principal Act, sets out the procedure to !be followed in an appeal against any decision of the Commission of Public Health or of any municipal council not to grant an application, not to register an applicant, or not to give consent under the Health Act. At the moment, if a case of this ty.pe ,comes before a Judge, he must hear it to its conclusion. The amended provision will enable the Judge to allocate the case to another Judge of the same court. It will streamline litigation.


Many hearings are urgent because certain persons could be kept out of business pending final determination. In some cases, many months 'could elapse before a Judge would be able to hear a case, during which time the business would cease to operate.

The most important provision in the Bill relates to tobacco. I refer to clause 9, which substitutes a new section 272 in the principal Act, and provides a penalty in relation to th.e branding of cigarette packets. EVIdence collected through the years has become increasingly pressing against the smoking of cigarettes; it highlights the hazards assodated with this habit. lIt seems that at last conclusive evidence has been presented throughout the world that smoking of any description, but particularly excessive smoking, can cause lung cancer. Of course, counter evidence has also been presented. As recently as this year, the Canadian House of Commons saw fit to appoint a Select Committee to investigate the matter. As a result of the ·wovk of this Committee, many interesting and varied opinions emerged which may cast some doubt upon the veracity of the claim 'concerning the high incidence of lung cancer among smokers. The Opposition is convinced th.at the evidence produced so consIstently through the years is by now conclusive.

The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON .--U is all statistical.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-That is so. It is said that figures do not lie, but they can be juggled around to emphasize a particular viewpoint. In this instance, the statistics have been so consistent that they are incontrovertible. Of course, a clever lawyer or a glib speaker, who has studied the problem, could probably recite facts that may even support the opposite argument but the majority of members of this Chamber would be convinced that there is a greater possibility of a smoker, particularly an excessive s.moker, developing lung cancer than a person who does not smoke.

I have heard it said that a city dweller who is a cigarette smoker is more likely to contract lung cancer than a country resident. I am also informed that, purely because of the incidence of atmospheric pollution, a city dweller, even if he does not smoke, is 7 or 8 times more likely to suffer from cancer than a country dweller. I understand also that an excessive smoker in the city, compared with a non-smoker in the country, is up to 63 times more likely to contract lung cancer than his country cousin. I do not doubt the veracity of these interesting facts. No doubt other speakers will have more to say on this question.

In the next few years, ·many new developments will take place which will be quoted as arguments both for and against the value of cigarette smoking. The cigarette companies must be aware of the situation because the majority of them seem to be diversifying their interests in some shape or form-they are going into other business activities. Honorable members cannot blame the cigarette companies for producing cigarettes provided that they are convinced of the truth of the arguments in support of such action and present them in as forthright a manner as possible. This is all part of honest commercialism. The all-party Select Committee of the Canadian House of Commons has submitted some disturbing facts, which seem to argue against the truths which we think have emerged during the years. Members of ·my party have examined the arguments presented by this Select Committee, but we are not convinced that there is no danger of lung cancer for heavy smokers.

During the Com·mittee stage, I propose to move an amendment to clause 9. With the exception of the clause which relates to pesticides, and clause 9, which deals with the tobacco problem, members of the Labor Party have no objection to the Bill.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province) .-This Bill, which will amend the Health Act


1958, deals with eleven separate matters. Like the curate's egg, it is probably good only in parts. It is amazing to me that, at this late stage of the sessional period, the Government should bring down a Bill whkh covers such a wide ambit. The measure was explained to honorable members only on 19th November, and yet we are expected to analyse eleven different sections of the Act to determine whether the proposals in the Bill are in order and should be supported.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-This Chamber is no longer a House of review.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-The Legislative Council certainly ceases to be a House of review under such conditions. At the outset, II emphasize that when I conclude my speech I propose to move that the debate on the Bill be adjourned for one month so that honorable members will have an opportunity thoroughly to examine the various provisions. Probably, this Bill will not be the only measure that will be treated in this manner by my party between now and the end of the sessional period. I am convinced that if this House is to carry out its proper function instead of being called a sausage machine, the sooner honorable members lay down the law to the Government and say that they will not deal with Bills unless they have ample time for research, the better we will be able to function as a House of Parliament.

Mr. Elliot dealt fully with the various provisions of the Bill, which include proposals relating to the collection of refuse, regulations relating to dangerous trades, sheet metal workers, and pest control operators. I do not know whether any honorable member has had the opportunity in the short time that has been available to examine the proposed amendments, and to ensure, for example, that the proposals relating to pest control operators do not conflict with the provisions of the Pesticides Act or the Aerial Spraying Control Act. For some time, this House has

been dealing with the subject of pesticides. However, on previous occasions, when measures of this type have been debated, considerable time has been available in which to collect the necessary information to ensure that those who are engaged in the industry with which these Bills deal are given ample opportunity to consider what is proposed.

When the Aerial Spraying Control Bill was under consideration, the Leader of the House allowed honorable members ample time in which to consider its ramifications. Honorable members who live in an area that is presently declared under that legislation-my colleagues, Mr. Bradbury and Mr. McDonald, and I live in such an area-realize that the local people must abide by very strict rules concerning the aerial application of pesticides and weedicides. The Bill proposes to insert in the Health Act a new Division 2A relating to pest control operators. From a cursory examination, it is obvious that the new division wHI cover all types of pesticides, pests and vermin; it will also control the use of pesticides and prescribe how they shall be used. Regulations will be drafted concerning the use of pesticides-that is, how they shall be used, what type shall be used and so on. It will be necessary for a pest control operator to submit himself to medical examination as and when required. The regulations will cover the various matters that are not enumerated in the Bill.

-It is not fair that honorable members should be called upon to vote on such a wide measure without having time to analyse what is actually proposed. Probably, I have examined this Bill as closely as any other honoraible member, but I am not certain whether it conflicts with other enactments. I know that the IMinister of Health will tell me forthrightly that it deals only with pest control operators who are engaged in commercial operations. 'I am not sure whether that is correct. Mr. Elliot has stated that in the agricultural industry there are many opportunities


of determining whether a small operator in an area is operating on a part-time basis or whether he works on a co-operative basis. I have been unable to ascertain by what means the Bill controls only the big operators. I believe the ambit of the measure is sufficiently 'wide to embrace all operators who ,would be required to comply with the legislation and the regulations.

The Country Party is not prepared to support the Bill at this stage. I propose to seek an adjournment of the debate for one month. If this is not granted, I shall oppose certain clauses as was done with the Labour and Industry Bill last year. Clause 9 extends the provisions in the Health Act relating to the 'control of packaging and labelling of certain commodities which come under that Act. This control is being extended to cover tobacco which is sold in this State. Whether we regard ourselves as authorities on the effects of smoking, or as implacable opponents of smoking does not concern me very much; I smoke, and I accept the risk.

I have a considerable amount of information concerning inquiries into the effects of smoking in the United States of America and also in Canada. It is -interesting to note that the Canadian findings contradicted the findings of the inquiry which was conducted in America. It is a matter which has been the subject of discussion over many years, and I appreciate that many eminent surgeons in Victoria have claimed that smoking is injurious to health. I do not propose to enter upon that argument.

I represent an area in which there is a very big tobaccO' industry. Other honorable members in this Chamber represent metropolitan areas in which the manufacturing section of the industry is located, a section with which I have had a personal association for 30 years. Melbourne, of course, is the centre of the sale and distribution of tobaccO' which is produced not only in Victoria but also in the other States of the Commonwealth.

I remind the House that the tobacco industry has received assistance over the years from the Federal and State Governments and that the Department of Agriculture has spent large sums of money in establishing research stations to' assist the development of the industry. Efforts have been made to achieve stabilization in the industry, a matter which in recent weeks has been the subject of debate in this Chamber. Water conservation projects have been undertaken to enable the industry to flourish, because it -is a primary industry which plays a part in the development of Victoria.

Having represented these people for a number of years, I consider it to be a breach of faith that a measure such as this should be introduced into the Parliament without prior consultation with members of the tobacco industry. They should have been consulted before this proposed legislation was thrust upO'n them, since it could very well have a grave effect on this industry which over the years has been assisted by various Governments.

In his second-reading speech, the Minister said that a warning could be printed on the packet, or that the tar and nicotine content of the tobacco could be shown, but I believe considera tion should be given to' the effect of this upon the industry. As I have said, the introduction of this measure is a breach of faith because although the Com,monwealth has urged an increase in the production of Australian tobacco to meet demand, the provisions of this Bill might well destroy the industry. If this Bill is passed, the situation might arise in which every packet of tobacco which is ,manufactured in Victoria must be branded even though tobacco from other States might not have to observe such a requirement. The Minister has introduced this Bill although he has received no assurance that the ultimate objectiv'e, of having uniform legislation throughout the Commonwealth, will be achieved.


The Hon. S. R. MeDoN ALD.-It is the same with the Footwear Regulation Bill.

The Hon. 1. A. SWINBURNE.-I think the Footwear Regulation Bill will be trampled underfoot. That should also happen to this measure. The Parliament should be frank and give the industry due notice that it is intended to introduce proposed legislation of this type and tha t after a certain period the industry will have to meet certain conditions. To pass a measure and say that it might not be implemented for 1 or 2 years under certain conditions is not the right way to' treat the growing or manufacturing sections of the tobacco industry. It is unfair that uncertainty should exist concerning the implementation of the provisions of this Bill. I believe that the Bill should not be passed in its present form, or in any other form which will have a damaging effect upon an industry upon which a great deal of money has been spent by Governments and by the citizens of this State.

I understand that the other States agreed at a meeting in Adelaide that they would enact legislation of this kind but that some doubt has now arisen whether they will proceed. I suggest that unless uniform legislation is enacted with regard to' this industry, we should not proceed to pass this Bill and thus hold a gun at the head of the industry. The provisions of this proposed legislation could be implemented in Victoria alone, to the disadvantage of our local industry.

I t is all very well for the Minister to say that the packet will be branded with a warning that smoking is a health hazard, but later it might be decided to make the warning more explicit by stamping the tar or nicotine content of the tobacco on the packets. In this connexion, I defy anybody to tell me how it can be done because, as a result of the publication of tests carried out at Monash University and within the industry, it has been demonstrated that every packet is different. If I go to' a shop and buy a packet of tobacco I can

tell immediately, from the feel of the packet, without opening it whether it

, contains a light or heavy tobacco. The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-As

they are both 2-oz. packets, how can that be done?

The Hon. 1. A. SWINBURNE.-The weight is the same, but the quality of the tobaccos is different and, as a result of ,my long association with all sections of the tobacco industry, I can detect the difference by the feel of the packet. The point I am making is that if standards are to be imposed they must be accurate, and it is recognized throughout the world that it is not possible to prescribe actual standards at the present time. In the United States of America, when it was first decided that packets must be branded, it was proposed to put a caution on the packet that tobacco could be hazardous to health, but later it was decided to stamp on the packets the warning, "The surgeongeneral has determined that cigarette smoking is dangerous to your health and may cause lung cancer or other diseases. "

If the Government proposes to adopt this practice in respect of tobacco, I suggest there are many other every-day commodities such as bread or butter which a person might be ordered by his doctor to avoid, since it could be injurious to his health. Does the Government intend to introduce legislation to control the sale of all those commodities? I remind honorable members that there is another commodity, which I shall not name because ,we have heard about it so often, but which is one of the greatest contributors to deaths, illnesses and tragedies in this State, but nothing is being done about that. The Country Party will not oppose the passage of a measure such as this when it is proved beyond any doubt that there is a need for it. I have reservations about whether those who claim that smoking is injurious to health are correct or not. I think there is still too much doubt f.or legislative action of this nature to be taken.


The HDn. L. H. S. THOMPSON.What would you regard asconclusive medical evidence?

The HDn. I. A. SWINBURNE.-I am fDrtunate enDugh to. have a brDther who is an eminent surgeDn. Over a number of years he has carried DUt mDre Dperations in relation to this type of complaint than any Dther VictDrian practitioner in this field. He strDngly believes that smoking contributes to lung cancer. II suppose my brDther has indDctrinated ·me to. some extent, but this did nDt StDP me frDm smDking a pipe. I do nDt smDke cigarettes. I have heard a lot of evidence to. the effect that smDking cDntributes to lung cancer and a lot of evidence the Dther way. On the basis that a weakness may already exist, perhaps smoking can act as an irritant to. aggravate thecDndition. AlthDUgh I am not a medical man, I respect my brother's DpiniDn and have always felt that there cDuld be sDmething in it.

.J am cDncerned with the manner in which this Bill has been introduced withDut cDnsulting those who. are engaged in the tDbaccD industry. It may be said in argument against my view, "Why should we be wDrried abDut persDns who. grow Dr ,manufacture tDbaccD?" I pDint DUt that the State and CDmmDnwealth Governments have shDwn SDme leadership in the prDductiDn Df this cDmmDdity and therefore ,we Dught to 'cDnsider whether we are dDing the wrong thing in that regard. At least the industry shDuld be given SDme nDtice ; Dtherwise, if this Bill is enacted, the man who. has planted a crDp this year to prDduce the same type of tDbacco as last year may find that he cannDt sell his prDduct. The manufacturer may test the tobacco. and decide that its nicDtine content is higher than he can get away with under the legislatiDn and nDt buy it, regardless Df the stabilizatiDn scheme. The LeaderDf the HDuse has sUPPDrted that scheme and dDne a great deal tDwards bringing it into. DperatiDn. The scheme wDuld fall down at Dur

feet and we wDuld have tobacco. in Dur sheds in a heap just as we have had before.

If due nDtice of what was to happen were given, it WDuld be up to. industry-the grDwers, the manufacturers and the departmental experts who. have dDne so. much to develDp the industry Dver the years -to. DverCDme the prDblems. Already the experts have reached certain CDnclusiDns as to. what increases the nicDtine cDntent in tDbacco and have sorted Dut the ramifications Df the tar 'CDntent aspect, but they require time in which to adjust the industry to. prDduce what is required ,in the interests of the medical health of the community. Apparently tDnight a Bill will be passed giving the Minister the right to. make certain regulatiDns and lay dDwn conditiDns.

The HDn. G. J. NICOL.-What regulations?

The HDn. I. A. SWINBURNE.-If Mr. NicDI reads the Bill, he will know what I am talking abDut. The hDnDrable member sits in the House and does nDthing until he is told to. do. sDmething. He will have an DppDrtunity to. speak if he wishes to. do. so.. I am nDt here to. teach Mr. NicDI, but the regulations may prescribe fDrms and types of labels, and so Dn.

The HDn. G. J. NICOL.--Mr. Swinburne shDuld knDw that it has nDthing to do with what he is talking about.

The HDn. I. A. SWINBURNE.-At least II am talking abDut sDmething about which I have SDme knowledge. I believe the industry ShDUld be given a reasDnable periDd Df time in which to. adjust itself before the prDpDsed penalties are imposed Dn it. I do. nDt prDpDse to say any mDre cDncerning the rest Df the Bill. At this stage I mDve-

That the debate be adjourned for one month.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-I shaH put the motion in two parts. The first questiDn is-

That the debate be now adjourned.


The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-1 regret that I cannot find myself in sympathy with what Mr. Swinburne has said tonight. My colleagues and .r intend to vote against any adjournment of the debate. We believe that an overwhelming case has been made out showing a link between cigarette smoking and lung cancer. I do not propose to cite the authorities. All the books would see,m to support that view. All over the world there is a trend towards doing what the Government proposes tonight. ,Mr. Swinburne has stated that he wishes to consider the matter. With respect, it seems to me that the honorable member was well able to argue the case, that he is well informed on the subject.

Mr. President, you will agree that cigarette companies have brought this legislation on their own shoulders. There has been no more blatant or brazen form of advertising in any industry than that indulged in by the cigarette manufacturers. Their aim has been to seduce the young, to persuade young people that the only way to be a success in life is to smoke cigarettes. They suggest that a person cannot be an athlete unless he has a cigarette stuck in his mouth. A girl cannot be a success at a party unless she smokes a cigarette. On the dance floor or anywhere else--:I invite honorable members to name it-it is synonymous with success in life to have a cigarette stuck in one's mouth. The manufacturers have taunted the community on this matter.

Anyone who has dared to speak about the evils of smoking has been immediately subjected to a flow of letters. Who can deny that? The manufacturers have already been at work on this Bill threatening the employees in the industry that if the labels are required their jobs will be in jeopardy. Unfortunately, I do not think the Bill will make very much difference. The Labor Party intends to vote for the measure, but hopes to stiffen it a little. In any event, even if my colleagues and I do not get

our way, we shall support the Bill. We believe that the form of caution contemplated by the Bill is not strong enough. We propose to require a notice to be placed fairly and squarely on the packet to the effect that smoking can cause lung cancer.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-That is not the subject under debate at present.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.---iBut it is a reason why the House should not agree to the adjournment of the debate. I am not wide of the mark in that respect. It is said that the industry should have been consulted. I do not know what the industry could do about it. I do not know whether those 'who made opium should have been consulted when its smoking was ruled to be illegal, or whether one day if we are to free ourselves from the curse of munitions, guns and so on, we should consult all the people who might be thrown out of work or lose their profitS' in that industry. I assure honorable members that .J do not ·want employees in the tobacco industry to be thrown out of employment. I do not think they will be by this measure, which is mild in form. It is like saying to a drunk, "You can go into an hotel on condition that you only drink tea. "

I should like the Government to tackle this vicious perversion of the young, this putting into the minds of children in the community and school the thought that they must smoke cigarettes. How many of those who take up the habit will die of lung cancer? Whom should we thank for that-the cigarette companies? They are big international concerns which have plenty of money. I hope this Parliament will never bow to their wishes. They will not be pleased with me tonight. Indeed, I hope they win not be. Does anyone know a person who has acquired the cigarette smoking habit who does not say that he wishes he had never taken up smoking? I am pleading on behalf of people who sit down and watch television at night and see these


advertisements, which must cost thousands of dollars, all of -which are designed to encourage people to buy a beastly product.

I believe that if the not unreasonable request of :Mr. Swinburne is agreed to by the House it will be the end of the Bill. It has been urged that we cannot act because the action would not be uniform. How can it be made uniform? I do not believe the Commonwealth Parliament has constitutional power in this matter. Someone must bell the cat. If Victoria takes this step, I think the other States will follow. Then we shall be able to go one step further. Noone wishes to see the television stations robbed of their best advertisements, but I want to save a few lives. I hope the House does not agree to the adjournment of the debate. One can always find an excuse and take the easy way out, but many people in the community will be watching this House tonight and asking "Who is going to win this one?" The international monopoly-it may not be a monopoly but it is large enough to be one-British Tobacco, will then realize that some sensible people in the Victorian Parliament are not prepared to be stO'od over.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).----I -make :it dear to the House that members should speak to the question of the debate being adjourned. If that motion is carried, I will later put the motion that it be adjourned for a certain period.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL (Monash Province) .-1 shall speak on the question of the debate being adjourned. I . am tempted to' support the motion moved by Mr. Swinburne. I do not know who is the silver-tongued magician who has persuaded the House, but it seems to be assumed that clause 9 will require cigarette packages to be labelled in a certain manner. I invite honorable members to study this clause because it provides for the making of regulations.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLy.-We want the provisions specified in the Bill, and this will be achieved if the amendment that will be proposed by Mr. Elliot is agreed to.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-This remains to be seen. The Government might well consider adjourning the debate on this Bill in order to examine this clause because it says nothing about statements being placed on the labels of cigarette packages. Subsection (2) of proposed new section 272 provides, inter alia""'----

The Governor in Council may make regulations applicable to tobacco prepared for smoking in all forms or in any prescribed form for or with respect to-

(b) the labelling of packages containing such tobacco and without affecting the generality of ,the foregoing- _

(i) prescribing the forms or kinds of labels to be attached to such packages, and requiring or prohibiting the use in the inscription on the label so attached of such particulars directions statements and information or words ai are specified;

I seriously suggest that under the wording of this proposed sub-section, the Governor in Council may, if he should be so advised, provide that a label may be put on a cigarette package stating. "You may smoke RS

many cigaretes as you like, because they are good for you". Perhaps Mr. Swinburne did not appreciate that point. I do not propose to enter into an argument whether cigarette smoking is or is not good for one, but I strongly suggest that the sub-section to which I have referred is so loosely drafted that any statements whatsoever could be placed on the label of cigarette packets .

I have always contended that when regulation-making powers are . provided in a Bill, Parliament ought to specify those things which the regulations shall cover. If anybody can persuade me tha t this provision states that a manufacturer shall place on the label of a packet of cigarettes words to the effect that smoking is dangerous to health, or whatever it


may be, I am prepared to eat the Bill. The Government could well consider adjourning the debate on this measure to re-examine the wording of the clause, or some other honorable member, during my absence in the Committee stage, may see fit to move an amendment that will specify the regulations which shall be made.

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL (Western Province) .-1 feel that the House is discussing the rights and wrongs of smoking. To my -mind, the whole point is that honorable members must have time in which to examine the measure. As a newcomer to the House, 1 found that for the first two months practically no legislation was before the House, but in the last fortnight many measures have been thrust upon us and we are expected to analyse them and to come up with sensible solutions. This is wrong and that is why 1 feel that the further consideration of this Bill should be adjourned. 1 am as concerned about the matter as any other honorable member, but 1 think all members should have the opportunity to study properly all proposed legislation that comes before the Council, which should act as a House of review, as it -is supposed to be.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province) .-1 support the motion moved by my Leader that the debate on this Bill be adjourned. A great deal of emphasis has been placed upon clause 9 as if it were the whole Bill, but this is not so. Proposed Division 2A as contained in clause 5, is an important provision in that it relates to pest control operators. As Mr. Swinburne rightly pointed out, this clause needs careful investigation.

Time and again, honorable members have protested about important legislation being introduced in the dying stages of a sessional period without the opportunity of proper consideration being given to them. Frequently, a Bill has been rushed through but it has been impossible to proclaim it because, on further examination, the Government has

found weaknesses and amending legislation is introduced in the next session to overcome the weaknesses.

In the week which has elapsed since this Bill was explained by the Minister of Health, very few members have had the opportunity to understand and become fully conversant with the far-reaching effects of even clause 5. This is not the proper way to enact legislation. If the Government follows its earlier intention of rising for Christmas next week, honorable members will be faced with a position which has existed at the end of every spring session, that of the Government steamrolling legislation through Parliament.

Clause 9 has caused a great deal of controversy, and no' clarification has been given of how this important provision will operate. It was pointed out that the legislation was discussed at a conference of all Ministers of Health and that the other States would introduce complementary and uniform legislation. The House has now been told that New South Wales has bailed out and that, although Queensland has under its Health Act had powers to deal with the matter for many years, it has not seen fit to implement those powers. Although it is not known whether the other States will pass complementary legislation, in the dying hours of the sessional period, the Government wants to push this Bill through. The Ministers of Health will be having a further conference early in the new year and t.hen the Minister will know whether Victoria will be out on its own.

The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON.-YOU did not want to wait to deal with margarine.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-·We wanted to gO' on with the Footweflr Regulation Bill but the Minister would not have a bar of it because he said that there must complementary legislation throughout Australia.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-This m·atter is enNrely divorced from margarine and footwear.


The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.Clause 9 of the Bill affects one particular industry and the other provisions have far-reaching effects. The Country Party believes that proper consideration cannot be given to the measure before this House or another place rises for the Christmas reces~.

Mr. Galbally said that advertisements imply that a person cannot be a success in life unless he smokes cigarettes. I admit that I smoke, but are we going to apply the same criteria to other industries in the community? I agree with Mr. Galbally's comments about the advertising of cigarettes on television. If we are to be consistent, why should we not take similar action with regard to the liquor industry? Alcohol is the greatest contributor to the death toll on our roads today. The public is told on television day in and day out that one cannot be a success or· even go to a party or any other sort of function unless one is a drinker. Therefore, why should we single out one industry for attention? Let us be consistent. We are told that cigarette smoking can be a health hazard, but it does not contribute to more deaths in Victoria or in Australia than does liquor. Statistics have been published to prove that 70 per cent. of our road accidents are attributable in some way to alcohol, but what are we doing about it?

The PRESIDENT (the: Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Mr. Bradbury is straying somewhat from the matter of the debate.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-I agree, but if we are going to tackle one industry we should adjourn the consideration of this measure and take the opportunity of dealing with all other industries which create a health hazard in the community.

A few weeks ago, the matter of Commonwealth-State financial relationships was discussed and it was pointed out that this State feared that it was being squeezed out by Commonwealth strangulation of State finances. Is Victoria going to be squeezed out if its sister States are

not prepared to follow suit in bringing down complementary legislation? I defy even the Minister to supply all the answers in relation to clauses 5 and 9.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-You may be surprised!

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-It would be unusual, because the Minister admits that generally he is the " bunny" who handles the majority of Bills which engender the most controversial debates. So far as clause 5 is concerned, I am confident that the Minister cannot give this House an assurance as to who will be and who will not be a pest control operator. For those reasons, I support Mr. Swinburne's motion that the debate should be adjourned for one month so that not only the industry but also members of this Parliament will have an opportunity of considering the contents of the Bill and its far-reaching effects.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) .-1 do not consider that any unusual procedure has been followed in regard to this Bill. Following its introduction, the customary one week's adjournment of the debate was granted. Members of the various parties had time to discuss the matter fully. The debate could have been resumed yesterday, but it was brought on tonight. Those members who support the motion for the adjournment of the debate are playing right into the hands of the persons who desire this measure to be defeated because every week, every month and every year that the measure is delayed further millions of dollars will go into the pockets of cigarette manufacturers.

The major tobacco companies have known for years that ultimately legislation such as this would come before this Parliament to bring about the marking of cigarette packages as proposed in this Bill. This happened in America and the manufacturers knew that it would occur here. That is what the Bill aims to do. I do not consider that it goes far enough, because it should state the wording


that is to be placed on the package. I am not confident that the matter will be determined as members of this House wish it to be done. Unless the Bill makes specific provision in this regard, how can the Minister of Health or the Governor in Council know what the Parliament wishes? Mr. Elliot and Mr. Galbally have indicated that our party proposes to move an amendment to clarify the situation. I am sure that later in the debate we will be able to substantiate the proposal.

If the debate is adjourned for one month, Parliament will not then be sitting. Next year, Her Majesty the Queen is to visit Victoria prior to the elections, and when the House does meet in the autumn of 1970 I am sure that it will be for only a short session and that the measures to be considered will be innocuous or simply windowdressing; no controversial measures will be presented. If this motion is agreed to, that will be the end of the Bill. As I said earlier, those members who support the motion will be supporting the persons who desire to see the Bill defeated.

The House divided on the motion (the Hon. R. W. Garrett in the chair)-

Ayes 8 Noes 22

Majority against the motion .. 14

Mr. Clarke Mr. Dunn Mr. Hewson Mr. McDonald Mr. Mansell

Mr. Campbell Mr. Cathie Mr. Chandler Mr. Dickie Mr. Elliot Mr. Galbally Mr. Gleeson Mr. Granter Mr. Grimwade Mr. Gross Mr. Hamer Mr. Houghton

AYES.

Mr. Swinburne.

Tellers: Mr. Bradbury Mr. Mitchell,

NOES.

Mr. Hunt Mr. Knight Mr. Merrifield Mr. Nicol Mr. O'Connell Mr. Thompson Mr. Todd Mr. Walton.

Tellers: Mr. Byrne Mr. Hamilton.

PAIR. Mr. May I Mr. Fry.



Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 (Power to pay charges

with respect to collection of refuse and rubbish by instalments).

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-As there appears to be agreement on all provisions of the Bill except clauses 5 and 9, I shall speak only to those clauses when they are called on.

The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 3 and 4.

Clause 5 (Interpretation). The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister

of He-alth) .-There appears to be some opposition to the definition of pest control operator. It is all right to say that a person can look in the telephone directory under the heading of " pest control opera tors" and say that the persons named therein are those whom it is proposed to bring under control. That is in fact the 'case; but the definition is not designed to encompass the casual operator who has an excess of pesticides and is prepared to do some spra)7ling for his neighbours. The definition contained in the Bill provides-

"Pest control operator" means a person who carries on or holds himself out in any way as carrying on :the business of controlling, destroying or repelling pests;

It cannot be said that the definition includes people who do a small amount of work to assist their neighbours, even if they do it for reward. Surely they cannot be classified as pest control operators.

I was aware of the criticism that this definition might invoke so I asked the Parliamentary Draftsman what was me-ant by a business. I am assured that a similar definition to the one contained in this Bill appears in almost every Act where the definition of an occupation has been necessary. If a person carr.ies on a business so that rhe greater part of his income is derived from that business, he will obviously be encompassed by the definition. If the Commission of Public He'alth, in its Wisdom,


believes that a person who is not registered as a pest control operator is carrying on a business which has grown out of all proportion to the original intention, he can be told that he is to be classIfied as a pest control operator under this legislation. If he is merely co-operating with other farmers in the community and doing some work for them, he will not be so encompassed unless the extent of his business activities increases considerably.

'f.he intention of the Government is to encompass those people who advertise themselves as pest control operators. They handle dangerous pesticides, and this is big business. They employ men who are not aware of the dangers assoCiated with pesticides 'and are inexperienced in handling these substances. The health of these men may be affected by the fumes from and the handling of the pesticides. This industry has grown to such proportions that there is a need for proper oontrol, and it is essential for the CommissIon of Public Health to know the types of pesticides being used in the extermination of various pests, the quantities of pesticides being used, how much is held in stock and whether employees or persons engaged in these enterprises are properly educated in the handling of this type of substance'. It may be necessary to ensure that from time to time these employees are medically examined to determine whether or not they are suffering internally or externally from the effects of pesticides.

The Parliamentary Draftsman informed me that in no legislation had he been able to draw an accurate distinction between those who we.re in fact in business and those who 'were helping one or two friends. Apparently there has been no difficulty with this in the past and I foresee none in the future.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) .-Members of the Labor Party thoroughly agree with the spirit of the amendment as enunciated by the Minister of Health.

We firmly believe in control over the use of pesticides because we have se'en examples of pasture and crop losses and sickness to operators through the unwise use of these substances. Controls have already been introduced over aerial spraying, and all we want is an as'surance from the Minister that where there is cooperation between farmers to reduce costs, such activities shall not be encompassed by the legislation.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-I give that assurance.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-In view of the fact that the Minister has given such an assurance, we are happy with the clause.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province) .-Members of the Country Party share the concern of Mr. Elliot in this matter. We are prepared to accept the assurance given by the Minister of Health, but I point out that he will not occupy that position forever. There could be a change of portfolios resulting in a new Minister of Health being appointed. How will that Minister interpret the provision contained in this clause? The definition of pest control operator is as follows:-

"Pest control operator" means a person who carries on or holds himself out in any way as carrying on ,the business of controlling, destroying or repelling pests;

Many farmers buy machinery or equipment and. use it to assist their neighbours rather than have their neighbours buy the same piece of equipment. One farmer may assist 3 or 4 -others in the community. He is carrying on a business for reward.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Unless the business becomes too big, he will not be encompassed.

The Hon A. K. BRADBURY.Where will the line be drawn? Members of the Country Party are prepared to accept the Minister's assurance, but if a new Minister is appointed the ass.urance may be worth nothing.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-A similar provision applies in other legislation.


The Han. A. K. BRADBURY.-The interpretation given by the Minister does not cover the speoific point that I am .making. The honor~ble gentleman has admitted that whilst he holds the portfolio of Minister of Health the provision will be interpreted in a certain way, but that is not sufficient. The definition should ibe amended to relate only to a person who is carrying on a business as a pest control operator as his sole means of livelihood. The present de·finition could be interpreted in any way the .Minister chooses. It is too wide in its implications.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) .---.;Far be it from me to support the Government on this matter, but I think Mr. Bradbury has gone too far. He knows that there is a tremendous amount of Coo-operative ownership of spray and other equipment in country areas. There is cooperative ownership of headers and balers and all types of machinery, and unless this trend continues farmers will face extreme difficulties through increased costs. However, a man may be making a considerable proportion of his income from spraying; he could be a contractor doing all types of work and could own a bulldozer as well.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-He probably would have to own other equipment because he would not be spraying all the year round.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-That is so. He sprays at only certain seasons of the year. He could spray tobacco, blackberries or pastures. A clear definition is needed to determine when a person can be classified as one who needs to obta1in a licence. I do not think the definition proposed by the Min~ister goes far enough in that direction. The honorable gentleman has spoken nebulously.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-There are some well-known cases under the income tax law where the income tax commissioner and the High Court

have been called upon to say whether or not transactions are casual or business dealings. Many of these cases relate to people who buy and sell shares and properties. I do not think the definition contained in the Bill would affect the people referred to by Mr. Bradbury, where a farmer, either for fee or reward, or even gratuitously, helped his neighbour in the fashion described. Nobody would want that. It cannot in any sense be said that he is carrying on or holding himself out to be in the business of controlling, and so on. He may say, "I am a farmer; it is true that I help my brother and the chap down the road and I have the equipment for this purpose, but it is not my business. It is true that they pay me for it, but it is a casual transaction incidental to my work as a farmer".

The Minister was asked for an assurance and he gave it. I am wholeheartedly behind Mr. Bradbury. I do not think the Minister should be asked for an assurance. It is the Act of Parliament that is important. I cannot see that any danger is involved to the farmer, otherwise the Opposition would move an amendment.


Clause 9, providing, inter aliaFor section 272 of the Principal Act there

shall be substituted the following section :-

(2) The Governor in Council may make regula.tions applicable to tobacco prepared for smoking in all forms or in any prescribed form for or with respect to-

(a) the cleanliness and sterilization of packages in which such tobacco may be packed;

(b) the labelling of packages containing such tobacco and wi.thout affecting the generality of the foregoing-(i) prescribing the forms or kinds

of labels .to be attached to such packages, and requiring or prohibiting the use in the inscription on the label so attached of such particulars directions statements and information or words as are specified;


(ii) prescribing the position and the manner in which any such particulars directions statements or words required to be inscribed on the label are to be so inscribed; and

( c) generally, carrying in to effect the purposes of this section.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-1 was interested to hear the points of view expressed tonight concerning the problem of cigarette smoking. So far as 1 am concerned it has a direct link with cancer. It was not a subject that was suddenly sprung upon the Committee. All honorable members are aware that through the years, certainly during the past two years, a great deal of consideration has been given to this matter both by members of Parliament and by the community. It has been asked, " Why should the tobacco industry be singled out and a warning notice placed on cigarette packets." So far as 1 am concerned, if one drinks alcohol one may suffer from cirrhosis of the liver or become an alcoholic. 1 am certain that if a person went to a doctor because he was not feeling well and he was told that he had something wrong with his liver or that he was an alcoholic and had to abstain from liquor, he would be most relieved, because he would know that he suffered from a complaint that could be cured, and that, if it could not be cured, he could live with it with some inconvenience. But if that person went to a doctor and was told that he had lung cancer, it would be the greatest blow he could receive.

Cancer is a complaint which we all abhor; we have all seen the result of it. As a community, we talk freely of what medical science has done and we always express the hope that it will find a cure for cancer because it is the last complaint from which we want to suffer. It could be said that many other commodities tha t we eat and drink do a great deal of harm and that a case could be made out to have warning labels placed on them. 1 believe that a warning against cancer in any form

deserves priority over other commodities that we may eat or drink, or otherwise ingest. It may also be said that we are specifically picking out one commodity and that we should take the same attitude in regard to other goods. There is an excellent reason for that action concerning tobacco.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-Other commodities can kill.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-I am speaking of the reaction of the individual. Anything that can be done to bring about protection from cancer is worthwhile. So far as the labelling of cigarette packets is concerned, 1 have been an advocate for publicity in all forms about the hazards associated with cigarette smoking. One form in itself is not effective; collectively a pattern is formed that will have some impact on the community. 1 believe that people generally do not read what is on the cigarette packets. 1 have often asked people what is on a cigarette packet; most of them know the brand name of what they s·moke, but they do not knolW that tobacco is, for instance, fine cut or that a certain brand of cigarette is manufa'ctured by W. D. & H. O. Wills. I am certain that if a series of steps are taken it will have an impact on the community.

1 should like to think it would have a greater impact on the younger members of the community. 1 have attended four conferences of Ministers of Health. 1 did not attend the last conference; the Minister for Local Government attended in my stead. This matter has been under discussion for the past 3 or 4 years. At the last conference of Ministers of Health it was unanimously agreed that the provision that cigarette packets should be labelled with a warning notice was warranted. It was agreed that people should be informed of the health hazard of smoking cigarettes, and the IMinisters decided that they would report back to their Governments.


The State Ministers of Health have no jurisdiction over their Governments; they cannot commit them in any shape or form. It has been said that New South Wales has decided that it will not proceed with any form of legislation to require this type of warning to be placed on a cigarette packet. It has also been said that Queensland does not intend to go ahead with the proposal. In the past week I have heard much exaggeration as to what other States are going to do. I do not believe that any of the Ministers of Health would make any statement without informing me whether or not they had made up their minds.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLy.-Probably they are waiting to see what Victoria will do?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Possibly that could be the case. I believe Victoria is committed to doing something about this matter because Cabinet agreed in principle with the recommendation of the Minister for Local Government. Accordingly, Victoria introduced this Bill. Mr. Galbally's amendment suggests that the Government should go further. At present under the Health Act the Government has no power to ensure that certain words are placed on cigarette packets. This Bill is giving power to the Commission of Public Health 'which may then decide to promulgate a regulation that certain words must be printed on cigarette packets. My colleague, the Chairman of Committees has taken exception to this regulation-making power.

The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. G. J. Nicol).-Order! Once again I must point out to the Committee that the Chairman of Committees takes no part in the second-reading debate. Mr. Nicol, sitting on the front bench may have done so. I am endeavouring to preserve the complete impartiality of the Chair. I must repeat for emphasis that the Chairman of Committee has no opinions on any measure before the Committee. I

should appreciate it if honorable members would make that distinction.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-I heard Mr. Nicol, who was sitting beside me on the front bench at the time, say that he believed it was wrong that this was a purely regulation-making power and that no one in this Parliament would know what was going to be put into the regulation and what was to be printed on the cigarette packet. The Health Act is purely a regulation-making Act. If one were to write every regulation into the Health Act the legislation would more than fill this Chamber.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-The principle must be laid down.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-The provisions of Division 4 are controlled by regulation. They say what shall be labelled, what is the colour of the label, what is the printing on the label, where the label must appear, and on what commodity and so on. Those provisions have been in the Health Act for many years. This Bill provides tha t similar provisions shall apply to cigarette packets. Control must be exercised over every commodity in which a health aspect is involved. The Government believes that cigarettes have some health aspect about them and that therefore cigarette packets should be labelled. If this amending legislation is agreed to, the Commission of Public Health will have the same powers over cigarettes as it has over proprietary medicines.

In March, I shall be reporting back to the conference of State Ministers to be held in Tasmania. I hope I shall be able to say that Victoria has the necessary machinery to deal with this matter. Victoria did not have that machinery to do what in fact it agreed to do at the previous conference of the Ministers of Health. I shall be interested to know what the other State Governments have done. Until I meet the State Ministers, I will not be in a position to know what the various States have done. The query has been raised whether this will


apply to cigarettes manufactured in Victoria for interstate sale. Section 92 of the Commonwealth Constitution does not apply to any commodity which comes under the COntrol of the Health Act in Victoria. However, Victoria has no control over what is manufactured in Victoria and sold over the border. If people want to establish a factory in Victoria and manufacture something that is controlled under the Health Act, Victoria can control it to a point, but it cannot make the manufacturer place a label on any commodity that is not required to be labelled similarly in another State. 1 emphasize that the amendment I foreshadow.specifically spells this out. It will be noted that the amendment specifically contains the words "in Victoria", which appear in section 273 of the Health Act on a number of occasions. 1 make it clear that the provision applies only to Victoria.

It has been said that if Victoria goes ahead with this measure and New South Wales does not do so, the manufacturer may move from Victoria and establish his industry over the border. Of course, whatever he manufactures over the border for sale in Victoria must conform with the Victorian labelling requirements. Victoria controls what happens in this State, but it cannot control what happens in another State. The manufacturer can go on manufacturing the product in Victoria for as long as he desires, but he does not have to place on the label words that are not required in another State, if the product is to be sold in that State. Those matters were raised during the de,hate .. 1 ~ould not have brought thIS legIslatIOn forward if 1 thought Victoria would not undertake the responsibilities which it accepted at the last conference of Ministers of Health. 1 move-

That the following new SUb-section be added to. follow SUb-section (2) of proposed new sectIOn 272 :-

"(3) Package~ containing tobacco prepared for smokmg are exempt from any regulatIon made under this section relating

to the labelling of such packages if the tobacco is packed for sale outside Victoria and not sold in Victoria".

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) .-1 am concerned with the workers in the tobacco industry in Victoria. To spell out this matter loudly and clearly will reassure them and their union. 1 can see no reason why there should be any retrenchment by the companies. The amendment will require labelling for tobacco prepared for sale in Victoria, but not for tobacco to be sold interstate or overseas. Therefore, the Opposition will vote for the amendment proposed by the Minister of Health.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-1 do not know whether the Minister of Health has considered the amendment foreshadowed by Mr. Elliot. If that were to be accepted, the amendment that has been submitted by the Minister would need to be widened. The Minister's amendment refers to "any regulation made under this section ". If Mr. Elliot's amendment were incorporated in the Bill, the provision would not be a regulation made under the section, but would be part of the section. Therefore, 1 move-

That the amendment be amended by the insertion, after the word "section", of the words "or requirement of this Act". My amendment to the Minister's amendment will be necessary if Mr. Elliot's foreshadowed amendment is accepted, and if his amendment is not agreed to, it will make no difference to the operation of the Minister's amendment, because there is no other requirement of the Act.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (M'inister of Health) .-1 have not had an opportunity to debate Mr. Elliot's proposed amendment. 1 intend to stand by the undertaking given to the conference of Ministers of Health. However, 1 am prepared to accept the amendment to my amendment proposed by Mr. Galbally. If, after further debate, the Committee accepts Mr. Elliot's amendment, Mr. Galbally's amendment would apply. If Mr. Elliot's


amendment is rejected when the Bill is considered in another place, if it is decided that the amendment submi tted by Mr. Galbally is unnecessary, it can be deleted.

Mr. Galbally's amendment on the amendment was agreed to, and Mr. Dickie's amendment, as amended, was agreed to.

The clause, as amended, was adopted, as were the remaining clauses.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne North Province) .-1 propose the following new clause to follow clause 9:-

A. After section 272 of the principal Act there shall be inserted the following section :-

"272A. (1) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in section 272, a person shall not sell cigarettes in a package unless there is printed on the main display portion of the package or where the package is of such shape or design that more than one portion of the package is likely to be displayed when the article is exposed for sale then on at least two of these portions the words " WARNING : SMOKING MAY CAUSE LUNG CANCER" in capital letters of 10 point type in black ink on a white background.

(2) Every person who sells cigarettes in contravention of sub-section (1) shall be guilty of an offence against this Act. "

I reiterate the remarks I made during the second-reading debate. Members of the Opposition are convinced that the years have proved, beyond any shadow of doubt, the strong link between excessive smoking and lung cancer. Other honorable members may care to expand on that contention. Much evidence has been produced to support the proposition. I refer to the findings of the Canadian All-Party Select Committee and various medical authorities in Sweden and in other parts of the Continent, in America, and in Australia. Sir Macfarlane Burnett was originally a little sceptical but slowly and surely became convinced of the link between smoking and cancer. It is only right that the warning to be affixed to cigarette packets should contain an unequivocal statement that smoking could cause lung cancer.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-As I have said before, this Bill is the result of 4 or 5 years of discussion between Federal and State Ministers of Health. Controversy has arisen all over the world on what warning should be printed on cigarette packets. We know what has happened in other countries. In this connexion, the United States of America is in a state of furore about the recom,mendations of the SurgeonGeneral. I disagree with the proposition that Victoria should specifically spell out and immediately legislate for what it believes should be written on cigarette packets. That might not be accepted by the other States, and what we do must be acceptable all over Australia. It would be wrong for Victoria to do one thing, New South Wales another, and Queensland something else. Even in the United States of America, with its great number of States, there is identical printing on cigarette packets throughout the country. That is also true of England. One State should not act unila terally on this matter.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Why not?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-It would be impractical. I have accepted my responsibility in presenting this measure, and I hope there will be enabling legislation to permit warning labels to be placed on cigarette packets. The other States will be aware of what Victoria does and, at the proper time, I imagine that agreement will be reached by the States on what wording should be used. At the moment, the suggested warning is to the effect that smoking is a health hazard. The same warning should be used in every State. Victoria cannot lay down its own wording and expect the other States to accept it.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) .-Would any honorable member of this Chamber recommend that his child or grandchild should smoke be'cause it is good for him, or for any other reason? I doubt whether


any member who smokes has not, at one time or another, said that he would give up smoking if he could or that, if he had not started to smoke, he would not start now.

This should prove that even in the minds of smokers there is an acceptance of the medical facts which are being proved time and time again. Wherever in the world investigations are made, facts keeping coming forward to link smoking with lung cancer, or at least to show that the person who smokes is more likely to die of lung cancer than the one who does not. Probably the most recent figures available are those in a supplement to the annual report of the Anti-Cancer Council of Victoria, an organization which the Government supports and to which it subscribes.

The report indicates that the annual death rate from lung cancer, for each 100,000 males, is 18 for those who do not s'moke; for those 'who smoke between 1 and 10 cigarettes daily, the annual death rate is 87 per 100,000--the death rate jumps greatly for those who smoke even that number of cigarettes a day; for those who smoke between 11 and 22 'Cigarettes a day, the annual death rate per 100,000 males jumps to 168. For those ,who smoke 23 or more cigarettes a day--some honorable members probably do sO---Jit jumps to 383. As compared with a nonsmoker, the chances are 18 against 383 in the case of a s'moker who smokes 23 or more cigarettes a day.

The incidence O'f lung cancer, or course, would vary somewhat depending upon the brands O'f <Cigarettes that are smoked and cernain other factors. The figures I am quoting relate to each 100,000 persons. U could not be said that this organization has a vested interest in this matter and is therefore "knocking" smoking. It is not an anti-s'moking council but an anti-cancer council, ,whose main interest is to assist people to avoid contracting lung ,cancer. Cigarette smoking is directly related to more than 90 per cent. of lung cancer c-ases.

Session 1969.-78

Of icO'urse, air pollution, or asbestosis, may be a contributing ractor in some cases, but nO' other contributing causes are known at this time.

I havem,any books iwhich support my arguments, but it is too late to prO'ceed with this type of witch-hunt. Honorable ,members are convinced that medical-and scientific facts prove that there is a }link between smoking and lung ,cancer. I agree with Mr. Nicol, a back-bench Government member, ,Mr. Swinburne and Mr. Bradbury, that the Government could m'ake any sort of regul'aHons under this 'measure. If a future Minister Qlf Health 'Or the Governor in Council decided that oS'moking was good, they could prescribe smoking by reg·ulation. Surely, an Act of Parliament should provide .guidelines for those who frame the regulations so that the intenti'ons of Parliament will be known. From time to time, regulations passed prove to be 'contrary to the legislation, and it .is necessary for the Subordinate Legislation CO'mmittee to draw them to the ,attention of Parliament so that the position may be rectified, 'and fresh regulations, which comply with the intentions of Parliament, drawn up.

I support the amendment moved by Mr. Elliot which wiH prescribe the words that Imust be printed on each packet ofdgarettes. Thewarning that s'moking is a health hazard will not stop Imany smokers from indulging in the habit. Other honoralblemembers, including the Minister O'f Health, have already stated this fact. However, at least it reveals that the Government :j,s prepared to move 'in the right dire:otion and that it recognizes that ,a problem exists.

,In the foreword to a booklet recently sent to schools, the Minister of Health stated-

On present rates, every eighth boy or girl in Victorian schools will probably die prematurely as a result of cigarette smoking. Since the cigarette-induced diseases which caused these deaths are still on the increase, the prospect may be even worse-unless we do something about it now. Irrespective .of whether the clause in the Bill, or Mr. Elliot's amendment, is adopted, action should be taken


quickl~ concerning this problem. Every day that this matter is allowed to be protracted wHI, in 15, 20 or 30 years' time, mean that a great number of additional people will die from lung cancer. People who are dying today Ifrom this disease are not necessarily dying as a result OIf their present activities but from a lifetime of smoking. Possibly, some people, who were heavy smokers ,many years ago, have since discarded the habit. If they stop smoking for some time, the chances that they 'will die from lung cancer gradually decrease. Nevertheless, a former heavy smoker cannotcompletely absolve himself fro'm the risk that some day he will die from lung cancer.

In the main, this legislation is designed to stop young persons ifrom taking up s'moking. It win not help those 'who are nOlw hooked, if I might use the expression-after all, tobac'co is a dope! Honorable members no doubt know people who have tried to give up smoking and know how irritable such persons becD'me. They do not know what tOo do with their hands, and finally, they give in, ask for a cigarette and commence s'mokoing again.

Th.is ,a'mending provisaon borrows f~om the Weights and Measures Act certain terminology concerning the manner lin which cigarette packets should be branded. The amendment provides that the warning on cigarette packets should be printed in 10 point type which, for the information of honorable members who are not famiHar 'with printing terrninology, in approximately the size of type that is used on the amendment which has been circulated. I believe it will be suffiCiently large to be noticeable to those persons who, at some time, take the trouble to read what is written on a packet OIf cigarette~.

Honorable 'members have recently received ;in their m,ail boxes a report from the tobacco industry which is marked "'confidential" and contains arguments in support of the -industry 'against the use of health warning labe'ls on c'igarette paokets. I do not


know why the report should be confidential. The tobacco industry has agreed voluntarily to cut down the advertising on television to certain hours. The industry claims that the avaHable information indicates that adult people do not start watohing television until 7.30 p.m.; therefore, it does not advertise between the hours of 4.30 p.m. and 7.30 p.m., except during news and sporting programmes. Of course, industry does not say when children stop watching television. Between the hours of 6 p.m. and 7.30 p.m., ,much of the time on television stations is taken up with news programmes. A sevenday survey of Melbourne's evening television programmes, conducted six months ago by the Anti-Cancer Council revealed the following information:-

One hundred and seventeen cigarette commercials were screened during a 28-hour period-an average of one every 14 minu tes. Half of the advertisements were screened before 8.30 p.m. and one-fifth before 7.30 p.m. Many were screened during family-type programmes that appeal to children as well as adults; for example, Bonanza, Tom Jones Special and Riptide. Others actually appeared in or around children's programmes-Brian and the Juniors, Lost in Space and Skippy. Whilst this organization, on the face of things, accepted some sort of voluntary restraint, it eventually reverted to the times when young people were likely to be exposed to these advertisements. The legislation is good, but it would be a lot better if Mr. Elliot's amendment were accepted.

I refer members of the Country Party to an article which appeared in the Age newspaper of 5th June of this year. It states-

In Melbourne the State Country Party Leader (Mr. Moss) yesterday called for action to warn smokers of the health hazards of tobacco.

Mr. Moss urged State and Federal Health Ministers to legislate for warnings on cigarette and tobacco packets that smoking is a danger to health. Because honorable members have not had time in which to study the legislation, a motion .for its further adjournment was moved. There is so


much evidence of the cannexian between cigarette smaking and cancer that one cauld speak abaut it far haurs. If anyane has any daubts abaut this effect, ;1 invite them to. examine the evidence that is available at the Anti-Cancer Cauncil which is lacated at 412 Albert-street East Melbaurne. A smaker wh~' wants to. live a few extra years shauld examine this evidence. He will be shown pamphlets illustrating a clean lung and ane 'which has pragr~ssively became black thraugh smakmg. Any surge an will give evidence of the effect af smaking an the lungs, and will do. so. in calarful terms. I ask the Cammittee to. suppart the amendment ,in arder to. give the legislatian same teeth.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (Narth-Eastern Pravince) .-1 have listened with great interest to. what Mr. Waltan has said. I was particular~y interested in the newspaper artIcle which indicated that the Leader af the Cauntry Party was in f~vaur af warnings being placed an clga~ette packets. 1 do. nat deny this, but If Mr. Waltan had been fair he wauld also. have said that the Leader af his party was af the same apinian.

The Han. J. M. WALTON.-Did he make a statement an it?

The Han. I. A. SWINBURNE.-I knaw his apinian.

The Han. J. 1M. WALTON.-Is it his persanal apinian?

The Han. I. A. SWINlBURNE.-Mr. M<?s~ was expressing a persanal apmIOn.

The Han. J. W. GALBALLy.--,He made a pubHc statement.

The Han. I. A. SWINBURNE.-At least he had the caurage to. do. that. Mr. 'Mass has his canvictians and we admire him far them, but .I am naw giving the views af the Cauntry Party an thi.s subject. I am nat casting asperSIans an anyane who. halds an opinian cantrary to. mine. .Jt may well be that my opinian is wrang. Members af the Cauntry Party saught the further adjaurnment af the debate tanight to. enable us to. cansider the matter further, but we were

defeated. 1 have already tald the Cammittee what II think abaut the clause and we are nat prepared to suppart IMr. Elliat's amendment.

An undertaking was given cancerning this matter but it was nat kept. In my apinian, the industry shauld be given time in which to. make adjustments. I cauld praduce just as much evidence against what Mr. Waltan has said as he has praduced in favaur af it. iff I did that I wauld nat be praducing evidence which is biased in suppart of the tabacca industry, which is vitally interested in the prablems assaciated with cancer. 1 am just as afraid af cancer as is anybady else, but I always try to. keep my feet an the graund and do. nat use ane-sided prapaganda anly.

The tabacca industry shauld have been given time in which to. adjust its activities to. the pravisians of this Bill. I am interested in the peaple 'wha are engaged in this industry and who. are endeavauring to. avercame the prablems which have been referred to.. Members af the Cauntry Party intend to. vate against the amendment. We will leave the clause as it is, as much as we dislike it.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister far Lacal Gavernment) .--1 hape the Cammittee will reject the amendment but nat because I am appased to. the sentiment whi,ch it seeks to. uphald. I represented the Minister of Health at the ·canference in Adelaide in 'May and, having entered into an agreement with the Ministers of Health fram the ather States that this sart af thing wauld be dane, that cammitted bath the Gavernment and me persanally.

Althaugh the amendment maved by ,Mr. Elliat seeks to. do. gaad, it will in fact do. harm because the 'Ministers of Health nat anly agreed that there shauld be a warning placed an cigarette packets but also. went to. same trauble to. determine the warding af the warning. We must be fair to. the tabacca jndustry. Unless we are prepared to. clase it dawn campletely. we shauld nat so. thrattle it that it has to. die.


Nothing could be more confusing than to have 6 different requirements in the 6 States. If we do not agree that the proper wording has been used we should give the Minister of Health a chance to go to the next meeting of Ministers of :Health and argue the case. We should not put in a statute of our own a fixed form of wording which would be difficult to depart from, even if all the other States had a different view. Uniformity is vitally important in this ,case. I shall give one reason why the wording was ,arrived at in its present form.

The M'inisters had before them a very illuminating report which had been prepared over quite a lengthy period by the National Health and Medical Research Council, which is the leading medical advisory body in Australia. The Council carried out research into the smoking habits of children of 15 years of age, and the results of the research were widely published. The House will remember that they showed that 37 per cent. of boys aged 15 and 15 percent. of girls aged 15 were regular smokers. In some schools which were surveyed, more than half the pupils were regular smokers, a regular smoker being one who smoked more than two packets of cigarettes a week.

These figures were startling, but the interest lay in other surveys which were conducted at the same time, including one into why children who had stopped smoking had decided to do so. It will not surprise honorable members to learn that parental influence is almost negligible. In fact, if one parent smoked no amount of advice 'would have any real effect, and if both parents s'moked it had even less effect. ,However, ,even in a case in which neither parent smoked, it was found that parental influence had little effect and that the greatest single influence, on the boys at any rate, was that of health-not the effect on their health in the sense of contracting lung cancer, but the effect on their wind when taking part in athletics, and so on.


The Hon I. A. SWINBURNE.-The educational film had a great effect.

The Hon R. J. HAMER.-Whatever the reason, the survey revealed that it was the effect of smoking on their athletic prowess which concerned the boys most when they decided to give up smoking.

If we are aiming at that age group, something different from a warning about lung cancer should perhaps be used. I use that illustration to show that the actual wording should be the subject of research, and I therefore believe that the Minister should have a reasonably free hand in arriving, with his colleagues, on the advice of the National Health and Medical Research Council, at a suitable form of words. His hands should not be tied by inserting actual wording into the Act, however high our motives might be and however strongly we feel about it.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL (East Yarra Province) .-1 join with the Minister for Local Government in the hope that the House will not accept this amendment. It is fair to say that Mr. Walton's com'ments concerning cancer and the statistics that he has furnished are no doubt true, but I think we have to go further than that. During the debate on this clause, e,mphasis has been placed wholly and solely on lung cancer and therefore the remarks of the M.jnister for Local Government have been most interesting. I remind the Committee that the words which are proposed in this amendment would be accepted by the Anti-Cancer Council, but I strongly suggest that they would not be accepted by the Asthma Foundation or the Heart Foundation. I think both of these organizations could themselves contribute a great deal of information about the effects of smoking upon asthma and heart conditions.

An honorable member has related his e~perience of going home after having been smoking heavily and finding that he was labouring for breath. I do not wish to frighten him


by saying that he was on the verge of an attack of asthma or a heart attack, but it clearly illustrates that smoking, apart from being a positive cause of lung cancer, has other effect's. For this reason, I think it is important that the wording on packages should be left in the hands of the Ministers. I believe they will ask the National Health and Medical Research Council to select a suitable warning which will cover the effects of smoking upon health generally and not be restricted to lung cancer.

My second reason for suggesting the rejection of this amendment is that it goes too far. I do not believe it is ne·cessary to go to the length of prescribing the size of type which must be used or of requiring black type to be used on a white background. As Mr. Swinburne says, manufacturers use different colours, therefore ,the ,colour printing to be used depends largely on the colour of the package. I think it would be ridiculous to prescribe such items in the Act.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-It is all very interesting to hear about the Ministers in other States, but I see nothing in the Victorian Constitution which says that this House has to be beholden t'O some conference which the Minister attends from time to time. Certainly the honorable gentleman did not attend one in relation to margarine, and I heard no objections raised in Parliament in relation to our unilateral attitude. In fa,ct, we fell over one another to pass the Bill. The Margarine (Amendment) Bill stated-

Every person who manufactures or sells any cooking margarine to which there has been added-

(a) any prescribed colouring substance; or

(b) any prescribed flavouring substanceshall be guilty of an offence against this Act. and went on to say-in .the case of cooking margarine-the words "cooking margarine for cooking purposes only" and the expression" beef fat and/or mutton fat form at least 90% of all fats and oils in this product".

I do not know whether that brand has to be in 10-point type or not, but it was inserted in an Act of Parliament without a tinker's curse being given to what Ministers in the other States said about it. The Minister of Health has asked how he can attend the conference and inform them that we have actually prescribed the wording, but I do not think that is relevant. This is in the f'Orm of a pure food regulation. When we label ·methylated spirits "poison", the Minister does not have to run off and seek the permission of the other Ministers of Health.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Nor does he have to ask Parliament what will appear in the "poison" notice.

The Hon. J. W. GAL BALL Y.-I do not disagree with that.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-That is taken care of by regulation, is it not?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Yes. The Minister can then say that he has put this Bill through and there will be a fanfare in the papers tomorrow and perhaps he will appear 'On television, but it will all mean nothing.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Perhaps Mr. Galbally would like to appear there.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.I should not mind appearing on television on this subject with the Minister of Health opposing me. I shall pay my share if the Minister will pay his. We would be doing something worth while to debate this matter. The tobacco companies seem to own all the carton firms in the country. Instead of writing to members of Parliament, why should they not debate the question of lung cancer on television? I have listened to arguments tonight about some Canadian Commission. If the tobacco companies have anything to fear why are they not debating the matter and putting "Marlboro Country" aside for a few minutes. No, they could not possibly do that!

VICTORIA...VICTORIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) FORTY-FOURTH PARLIAMENT THIRD SESSION (1969-70)...

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Transcript of VICTORIA...VICTORIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) FORTY-FOURTH PARLIAMENT THIRD SESSION (1969-70)...