VICTORIA...VICTORIA PARL~NTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) FORTY -FIFTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION (1970-71)...

VICTORIA

PARL~NTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

FORTY -FIFTH PARLIAMENT

FIRST SESSION (1970-71)

1Jjtgislntiut (!tuuneil nnb 1Jjtgislntiut Asstwblg

VOL. CCCII.

[From March 16, 1971, to April 29, 1971J

MELBOURNE: C. H. RIXON, GOVERNMENT PRINTER.

w1Jt Q;nUtrUnr His Excellency Major-General SIR ROHAN DELACOMBE, K.e.M.G., K.e.V.O ..

K.B.B., C.B., D.S.O., K.ST.J.

m1Jt iGituttUaut-Q;nUtrUnr Lieutenant-General the Honorable SIR EDMUND FRANCIS HERRING, K.e.M.G.,

K.B.E., D.S.O., M.e., B.D.

m1Jt miuintry (At the Opening of the Session.)

Premier and treasurer

Chief Secretary

Minister of Agriculture

Minister for Local Government Attorney-General, and Minister of Immigration

~The Hon. Sir Henry Bolte, K.C.M.G.,

.. M.P. " Sir Arthur Rylah, K.B.E.,

· . C.M.G., E.D., M.P. G. L. Chandler, C.M.G.,

.. M.L.e.

Minister of Education Minister of Housing, Minister of Forests, and Minister}

for Aboriginal Affairs ., . . . . . . Minister for Fuel and Power, and Minister of Mines Minister of Health Minister of Transport Minister of State Development, and Minister for Tourism Minister of Lands, Minister of Soldier Settlement, and~

Minister for Conservation . . . . . . Minister of Labour and Industry, and Assistant Minister

of Education .. . . . . . . . . Minister of Public Works .. Minister of Water Supply .,

R. J. Hamer, E.D., M.L.e. G. O. Reid, M.P. L. H. S. Thompson, M.P. E. R. Meagher, M.B.E.,

E.D., M.P. J. C. M. Balfour, M.P. J. F. Rossiter, M.P. V. F. Wilcox, M.P. V. O. Dickie, M.L.C. W. A. Borthwick, M.P.

J. A. Rafferty, M.P. Murray Byrne, M.L.e. I. W. Smith, M.P.

Parliamentary Secretary of the Cabinet: R. C. Dunstan, Esquire, D.S.O., M.P.

(From December 15, 1970.) Premier and Treasurer

Chief Secretary


.. ~The Hon. Sir Henry Bolte, K.e.M.G., M.P.

· . "Sir Arthur Rylah, K.B.E., e.M.G., E.D., M.P.

· . G. L. Chandler, e.M.G., M.L.C.

Minister for Local Government Attorney-General .. Minister of Education Minister of Housing, Minister of Forests, and Minister}

for Aboriginal Affairs ., . . . . Minister for Fuel and Power, and Minister of Mines .. Minister of Health Minister of Transport . . . . . . . . Minister of State Development, Minister for TOUrism'j

and Minister of Immigration . . . . . . Minister of Lands, Minister of Soldier Settlement, and

Minister for Conservation . . . . . . Minister of Labour and Industry, and Assistant Minister

of Education .. . . . . . . . . Minister of Public Works Minister of Water Supply Minister without Portfolio

R. J. Hamer, E.D., M.L.C. G. O. Reid, M.P. L. H. S. Thompson, M.P. E. R. Meagher, M.B.E.,

E.D., M.P. J. e. M. Balfour, M.P. J. F. Rossiter, M.P. V. F. Wilcox, M.P. V. O. Dickie, M.L.C.

W. A. Borthwick, M.P.

J. A. Rafferty, M.P. Murray Byrne, M.L.e. I. W. Smith, M.P. R. C. Dunstan, D.S.O.,

M.P.

Parliamentary Secretary of the Cabinet: A. H. Scanlan, Esquire, M.P.

IDllt • tutl1trg (From December 22, 1970.)

Premier and Treasurer {The Hon. Sir Henry Bolte, K.C.M.G.,

., M.P.

Chief Secretary {Sir Arthur Rylah, K.B.E.,

. . C.M.G., B.D., M.P.


Minister for Local Government Attorney-General ..

{G. L. Chandler, e.M.G.,

.. M.L.C.

Minister of Education Minister of Housing, Minister of Forests, and Minister}

for Aboriginal Affairs .. . . . . Minister for Fuel and Power, and Minister of Mines Minister of Health Minister of Transport Minister of State Development, Minister for Tourism,}

and Minister of Immigration . . . . Minister of Lands, Minister of Soldier Settlement, and}

Minister for Conservation . . . . . . Minister of Labour and Industry, and Assistant Minister}

of Education .. . . . . . . . . Minister of Public Works ., Minister for Social Welfare

Minister of Water Supply .. .. {

R. J. Hamer, E.D., M.L.C. G. O. Reid, M.P. L. H. S. Thompson, M.P. E. R. Meagher, M.B.E.,

E.D., M.P. J. C. M. Balfour, M.P. J. F. Rossiter, M.P. V. F. Wilcox, M.P.

V. O. Dickie, M.L.e.


J. A. Rafferty, M.P.

Murray Byrne, M.l. .C. I. W. Smith, M.P. R. C. Dunstan, D.S.O.,

M.P.


(From March 9, 1971.)

Premier and Treasurer {The Hon. Sir Henry Bolte, K.e.M.G.,

.. M.P. Chief Secretary, and Attorney-General


Minister for Local Government Minister of Education

.. {

Minister of Housing, Minister of Forests, and Minister} for Aboriginal Affairs .. . .

Minister for Fuel and Power, and Minister of Mines Minister of Health Minister of Transport Minister of State Development, Minister for Tourism,}



of Education .. . . . . . . . . Minister of Public Works .. Minister for Social Welfare

Minister of Water Supply ..

G. O. Reid, M.P. G. L. Chandler, e.M.G.,

M.L.e. R. J. Hamer, E.D., M.L.C. L. H. S. Thompson, M.P. E. R. Meagher, M.B.E.,

E.D., M.P. J. e. M. Balfour, M.P. J. F. Rossiter, M.P. V. F. Wilcox, M.P.

V. O. Dickie, M.L.C.



Murray Byrne, M.L.C. I. W. Smith, M.P. R. e. Dunstan, D.S.O.,

M.P.


wll~ ministry (From March 23, 1971 .. )

Premier and Treasurer {The Hon. Sir Henry Bolte, K.C.M.G.

.. M.P. Chief Secretary, and Attorney-General


Minister for Local Government Minister of Education

.. {


Minister for Fuel and Power, and Minister of Mines Minister of Health Minister of Transport Minister of State Development, Minister for Tourism,}



of Education ., . . . . . . . . Minister of Public Works .. Minister for Social Welfare

Minister of Water Supply

,Minister without Portfolio

.. {

G. O. Reid, Q.C., M.P . G. L. Chandler, e.M.G"

M.L.e. R. J. Hamer, E.D. L. H. S. Thompson, M.P. E .. R. Meagher, M.B.E.,





Murray Byrne, M.L.C. I. W. Smith, M.P . R. C. Dunstan, D.S.O.,

M.P. A. J. Hunt, M.L.C.


(From April 27, 1971.)

Premier and Treasurer

Chief Secretary


Attorney-General ., Minister of Education

{The Hon. Sir Henry Bolte, K.C.M.G.,

" M.P.

.. {


Minister for Fuel and Power, and Minister of Mines Minister of Health Minister of Transport Minister for State Development, Minister for TouriSm,}



of Education ., . . . . . . . . Minister of Public Works .. Minister for Social Welfare

Minister of Water Supply ..

Minister for Local Government

.. {

R. J. Hamer, E.D., M.P . G. L. Chandler, e.M.G.,

M.L.C. G. O. Reid, Q.C., M.P. L. H. S. Thompson, M.P. E. R. Meagher, M.B.E.,





Murray Byrne, M.L.C. I. W. Smith, M.P . R. C. Dunstan, D.S.O.,

M.P. A. J. Hunt, M.L.C.


iJltat nf ilrmbrr.a nf Jarliamrut FORTY-FIFTH PARLIAMENT-FIRST SESSION (1970-71)

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL [BEFORE THE PERIODICAL ELECTIONS HELD ON MAY 30. 1970.]

MEMBER PROVINCE MEMBER

Bradbury, A. K. Byrne, Murray Campbell, W. M. Cathie, I. R. Chandler, G. L., C.M.G. Clarke, M. A. Dickie, V. O. Dunn, B. P ... Elliot, D. G. Fry, W. G ... Galbally, J. W., Q.C. Garrett, R. W., A.F.C.,

A.E.A. Gleeson, S. E. Granter, F. J. Grimwade, F. S. Gross, K. S ... Hamer, R. J., E.D.

North-Eastern Ballaarat East Yarra South-Eastern Boronia Northern Ballaarat North-Western Melbourne Higinbotham Melbourne North Southern

South-Western Bendigo Bendigo Western East Yarra

Hamilton, H. M., E.D. Hewson, H. A. Houghton, W. V. Hunt, A. J. Knight, A. W. McDonald, S. R. Mansell, A. R. May, R. W. Merrifield, Samuel Mitchell, C. A. Nicol, G. J. O'Connell, G. J. Swinburne, I. A. Thorn, G. W. "

*Thompson, L. H. S. Todd, Archibald Tripovich, J. M. Walton, J. M. "

• Resigned, May 5, 1970.

PRESIDENT: THE HON. R. W. GARRETT, A.F.C., A.E.A.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: THE HON. G. J. NICOL.

PROVINCE

Higinbotham Gippsland Templestowe South-Eastern Melbourne West Northern North-Western Gippsland Doutta Galla Western Monash Melbourne North-Eastern South-Western Monash Melbourne West Doutta Galla Melbourne North

TEMPORARY CHAIRMEN OF COMMITTEES: THE HONORABLES A. K. BRADBURY, K. S. GROSS, G. W. THOM, AND ARCHIBALD TODD.

[AFTER THE PERIODICAL ELECTIONS HELD ON MAY 30, 1970.]

MEMBER PROVINCE MEMBER

Bradbury, A. K. Byrne, Murray Campbell, W. M. Chandler, G. L., C.M.G. Clarke, M. A. Dickie, V. O. Dunn, B. P. Eddy, R. J ... Elliot, D. G. Fry, W. G ... Galbally, J. W., Q.C. Garrett, R. W., A.F.C.,

A.E.A. Gleeson, S. E. Granter, F. J. Grimwade, F. S. Gross, K. S. §Hamer, R. J., E.D. Hamilton, H. M., E.D.

North-Eastern Ballaarat East Yarra Boronia Northern Ballaarat North-Western Doutta Galla Melbourne Higinbotham Melbourne North Templestowe

South-Western Bendigo Bendigo Western East Yarra Higinbotham

Hauser, V. T. IIHider, C. A. M. Houghton, W. V. Hunt, A. J. Jenkins, O. G. Kent, D. E. Knight, A. W. McDonald, S. R. Mansell, A. R. May, R. W. Mitchell, C. A. Nicol, G. J. O'Connell, G. J.

tStorey, Haddon Swinburne, I. A.

tThomas, H. A. Tripovich, J. M. Walton, J. M. .. Ward, H. R.

§ Resigned, March 17, 1971. II Elected, June 20, 1970. t Elected, April 17, 1971.

PROVINCE

Boronia Monash Templestowe South-Eastern South-Western Gippsland Melbourne West Northern North-Western Gippsland Western Monash Melbourne East Yarra North-Eastern Melbourne West Doutta Galla Melbourne North South-Eastern

t Elected, October 24, 1970. At the periodical elections held on May 30, 1970, Mr. R. W. Walsh was declared elected as a representative of Melbourne West Province. On September 4, 1970, the Full Court of the Supreme Court of Victoria, sitting as a Court of Disputed Returns, declared that Mr. Walsh was incapable of being elected a member of the Legislative Council, that the election was void, and that a vacancy existed. At the subsequent by-election, the Hon. H. A. Thomas was elected.

PRESIDENT: THE HON. R. W. GARRETT, A.F.C., A.E.A.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: THE HON. G. J. NICOL.

TEMPORARY CHAIRMEN OF COMMITTEES: THE HONORABLES A. K. BRADBURY, W. G. FRY, K. S. GROSS, AND A. W. KNIGHT.

MEMBER

Amos, D. G. I. Balfour, J. C. M. Billing, N. A. W., K.ST.J. Birrell, H. W. Bolte, Sir Henry,

K.C.M.G. Bornstein, D. L. F. Borthwick, W. A. Broad, H. G. Burgin, C. W. Christie, Vernon Clarey, R. A. Crellin, M. L. Curnow, E. J. Dixon, B. J. Doube, V. J. Doyle, J. J ... Dunstan, R. c., D.S.O. Edmunds, C. T. Evans, A. T. Evans, B. J. Fell, R. W ... Floyd, W. L. Fordham, R. C. Ginifer, J. J. Goble, Mrs. D. A. tHamer, R. J., E.D. Hayes, G. P. Holding, A. C. Jona, Walter .. Kirkwood, C. W. D. Lewis, E. W ... Lewis, W. J. Lind, A. A. C. Lovegrove, Denis Loxton, S. J. E. McCabe, J. E. MacDonald, J. D. McDonald, R. S. L.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

DISTRICT

Morwell Narracan Heatherton Geelong Hampden

Brunswick East Monbulk Swan Hill Pol warth Ivanhoe Melbourne Sandringham Kara Kara St. Kilda Albert Park Gisborne Dromana Moonee Ponds Ballaarat North Gippsland East Greens borough Williamstown Footscray Deer Park Mitcham Kew Scoresby Richmond Hawthorn Preston Dundas Portland Dandenong Sunshine Prahran Lowan Glen Iris Rodney

MEMBER

McLaren, J. F., O.B.E. Maclellan, R. R. C.

DISTRICT

Bennettswood Gippsland West Ringwood Manson, J. W.

Meagher, E. R., M .B.E., Frankston E.D.

Mitchell, T. W. Moss, G. C. Mutton, J. P. ., Rafferty, J. A. Reese, W. F. L. Reid, G. 0., Q. C. Ross-Edwards, Peter Rossiter, J. F .. ,

*Rylah, Sir Arthur, K.B.E., C.M.G., E.D.

Scanlan, A. H. Shilton, L. V. ., Simmonds, J. L. Smith, A. V. Smith, I. W. Stephen, W. F. Stokes, R. N. ., Suggett, R. H. Tanner, Sir Edgar, C.B.E.,

E.D. Taylor, A. W., E.D. Taylor, J. A. Templeton, T. W. Thompson, L. H. S. Trethewey, R. H. Trewin, T. C. ., Trezise, N. B. ., Turnbull, Campbell Wheeler, K. H. Whiting, M. S. Wilcox, V. F. Wilkes, F. N. Wilton, J. T. Wiltshire, R. J ...

Benambra Murray Valley Coburg Glenhuntly Moorabbin Box Hill Shepparton Brighton Kew

Oakleigh Midlands Reservoir Bellarine Warrnambool Ballaarat South Evelyn Bentleigh Caulfield

Balwyn Gippsland South Mentone Malvern Bendigo Benalla Geelong North Brunswick West Essendon Mildura Camberwell Northcote Broad mead ows Syndal

t Elected, April 17, 1971. • Resigned, March 5, 1971.

SPEAKER: THE HON. VERNON CHRISTIE.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: SIR EDGAR TANNER, c.B.E., E.D.

TEMPORARY CHAIRMEN OF COMMITTEES: MR. CLAREY, MR. A. T. EVANS, MR. GINIFER, MR. JONA, MR. LIND, MR. R. S. L. McDONALD, MR. MITCHELL, MR. STOKES, MR. SUGGETT, MR. A. W. TAYLOR, MR. TREWIN, MR. WHEELER, AND MR. WILTSHIRE.

LEADER OF THE LIBERAL PARTY: THE HON. SIR HENRY BOLTE, K.C.M.G.

DEPUTY LEADER OF THE LIBERAL PARTY: THE HON. SIR ARTHUR RYLAH, K.B.E., C.M.G., E.D. (Resigned, March 5, 1971); THE HON. R. J. HAMER, E.D. (From April 20, 1971).

LEADER OF THE PARLIAMENTARY LABOR PARTY AND LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: MR. A. C. HOLDING.

DEPUTY LEADER OF THE PARLIAMENTARY LABOR PARTY AND DEPUTY LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: MR. F. N. WILKES.

LEADER OF THE COUNTRY PARTY: MR. PETER Ross-EDWARDS.

DEPUTY LEADER OF THE COUNTRY PARTY: MR. M. S. WHITING.

HEADS OF PARLIAMENTARY DEPARTMENTS

Council-Clerk of the Parliaments and Clerk of the Legislative Council : Mr. A. R. B. McDonnell.

Assembly-Clerk of the Legislative Assembly: Mr. J. H. Campbell.

Hansard-Chief Reporter: Mr. G. E. Clarke (Retired, June 30, 1970) ; Mr. R. G. Stuart, E.D., (From July 1, 1970).

Library-Librarian: Miss J. McGovern.

House-Secretary: Mr. R. M. Duguid.

Country Roads [16 MARCH, 1971.] (Amendment) Bill. 4097

amount of temptation is put in the way of a person performing these duties. A temptation is given to a person when he is registering second-hand motor vehicles for various dealers. The testing of applicants for drivers' licences is another field of temptation. For this reason, if public servants are used for this purpose and for the registration of motor vehicles, a former policeman should be in charge of the group.

Because of the provisions of the Superannuation Act, the State is lOSing the services of a number of retired policemen who could be reemployed as reservists if they were not penalized, under the present Superannuation Act, by having a proportion of the wages paid deducted from their superannuation. A large work force is available which could be utilized as supervisors of testing and registration stations. This matter should be seriously examined.

Sir Eric has also suggested that the Police Pension Fund should be changed and separated from the State Superannuation Fund. In fairness to Sir Eric, I think it is correct to say that he made these comments without much research and without the knowledge of the recent amendment to the Superannuation Act. I know that no member of the Police Force would be keen on withdrawing from the State Superannuation Fund.

The Minister for Social Welfare referred to the cost per head of population of the Police Force in New South Wales as opposed to the cost in Victoria. I contend that this point should not be considered. What should be considered is the ratio of police per head of population and not the cost per head of population. In New South Wales, the ratio is 1 to 628 and in Victoria it is 1 to 800-odd. This is surely a sorry state of affairs.

As I said at the outset, the fact that the Police Force has been allowed to drift into this state has been highlighted in the report by

Session 1971.-148

Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston and is an indictment of the Government for its failure to provide an efficient and adequate Police Force for this State. Because of that, as stated by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, the Government deserves the strongest censure of this House.

On the motion of Mr. WHITING (Mil dura) , the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until next day.

COUNTRY ROADS (AMENDMENT) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Council and, on the motion of Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport), was read a first time.

LITTER (PROCEEDINGS FOR OFFENCES) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Council and, on the motion of Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport), was read a first time.

ADJOURNMENT. EDUCATION DEPARTMENT: PAYMENT

OF STUDENT TEACHERS: YALLOURN NORTH PRIMARY SCHOOL: DIAMOND CREEK EAST PRIMARY SCHOOLCOMMONWEALTH INDUSTRIAL GASES LTD.: SALE OF PRODUCTS-SCOPE OF MATTERS 'RAISED ON ·MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT OF SITTING.

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-I move-

That the House, at its -rising, adjourn until tomorrow, at half-past Three o'clock.

The motion was agreed to.


That the House do now adjourn.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I direct to the attention of the Minister of Education the non-payment of certain student teachers. I raised this matter last week, and on the advice of the Minister I placed a question on the Notice Paper. Today

4098 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Adjournment.

I received an 'answer saying that the department could not collate the information required. At the moment, I am not concerned with the inefficiency of the Minister's department; I am well aware of that. What concerns me is that these students were entitled to payment from 1st January. On the admission of the Minister, the accounts branch of his department needs reorganization and he states that the reorganization is under way. However, this should not be at the expense of the student teachers. I should not have to tell the IMinister who these people 'are-he should tell me---.:but, if his department does not know, I can tell him of seventeen at one teachers' college. It is outrageous that anybody should have to work for t.he Government without being paid from 1st January until 16th March.

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-They did not work from 1st January.

Mr. WILKES.-Once they are under contract, they are engaged; they have worked for the Government from 1st January, whether the Premier likes it or not, and they should have been paid weeks ago. I ask the Minister to advise me when they will be paid.

Mr. AMOS (Morwell).-I, too, direct a matter to the attention of the Minister of Education. The committee of the Yallourn North Primary School has worked hard' and has raised far in excess of the subsidy funds made available to provide a library at the school. The librarian recently left on an overseas trip, and before her departure the school committee sought the services of another librarian to work at the school until her return in November, 1971. This was arranged and the library branch of the Education nepartment was notified. However, on 10th March the library branch advised the school that, because of the ban on temporary teachers, Miss Wilton, the new librarian, was not

to start. This applies even though the school was merely maintaining the status quo and would not incur any additional expense. I ask the Minister to look into this decision, which will have a serious effect on the Yallourn North Pri'mary School.

Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir).The matter I raise comes under the administration of the Department of Labour and Industry. I refer to the methods by which Commonwealth Industrial Gases Ltd. sells its products. A manufacturer in my electorate has informed me that he has been denied a supply of oxy-acetylene gas pending the payment in advance of twelve months' rental on cylinders.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member for Reservoir should quickly indicate how this is a matter of Government administration. So far that is not apparent.

Mr. SIM'MONDS.-The Consumer Affairs Council and the Consumer Protection Bureau have an interest in ensuring that the consumers of industrial gas are not ,charged for a commodity they do not receive and are supplied with goods they require to carryon their business.

THE SPEAKER.-I do not recognize this as a matter of Government administra tion.

Mr. FELL (Greensborough).-I ralis'e a ma;tter which c'Onc'erns the MinIster of Education. The Diamond Creek East Primary School is being erected on low-lying land which is subject to swamping and muddy conditions, more particularly in the immediate precincts of the building, but nothing has been done to give access to the buildings from the street. !I am pleased to say that the building itself is of high standard but, on inspecting the area yesterday, II found that mud was being traipsed inside the building despite

Adjournment. [16 MARCH, 1971.] Adjournment. 4099

the fact that doormats and scrapers are provided. There is no way in which the pupils can keep out of the mud and there is no place, except inside the building, where they can eat their lunch. I ask the Minister to ensure that action is taken to provide paving.

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education).-I will inquire into the Diamond Creek East mud situation and the point made by the honorable member for Morwell. On the matter raised by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, I have previously pointed out that the accounts branch of the Education Department is being reorganized. I have also pointed out that the department has a pay-roll comprising between 48,000 and 49,000 people; it is by far the largest in the State. It is essential that the accounts branch be mechanized to the maximum degree.

The salaries to which the honorable member refers are allowances to students, not payments to people who are actually working. Those concerned are students who commenced studies at universities only ten days ago. The Government offered 7,200 studentships, some 4,800 of which will be accepted. A large number of students left it until the deathknock to notify the department whether they would accept the studentships. At the last moment, many wanted to transfer from one university to another. These late arrangements created a most difficult situation for the accounts branch. The information sought by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition will be provided, and the department will see that the allowances are paid at the earliest possible date. I point out that these studentships represent probably the most desirable scholarships offered to trainee teachers anywhere in the world.

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-Various matters have been raised on the adjournment

motion. I accept that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition posed a question of Government administration. Only a year or so ago questions without notice were introduced into this House-these were in addition to questions on notice -and the normal practice of members raising matters of Government administration on the motion for the adjournment of the sitting was continued. I inform the House that the Government is becoming a little weary of the situation that has arisen. For instance, there were 60 questions on today's Notice Paper, although half an hour is allotted for questions without notice. Despite this, the honorable members for Greensborough and Morwell asked questions on the motion now before the House.

Mr. DOUBE.-How embarrassing!

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-They were not embarrassing; the honorable members were asking questions, not raising matters of Government administration. I inform the House that unless the position is corrected in the near future the Government will curtail questions without notice.

Mr. DouBE.-That is not your prerogative.

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-Yes it is.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! Oln the subject of members raising matters on the motion for the adjournment of the sitting, which is a usage of long standing, the Premier raised a point of order. From the chair I ruled that the matters raised were matters of Government administration.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-May I clarify something on the point of order?

The SPEAKER.-A clarification is not a point of order.


The House adjourned at 10.26 p.m.

4100 Questions [ASSEMBLY.] on Notice.

iJltgislntiut i\sstmhly. Wednesday, March 17, 1971.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie) took the chair at 4.4 p.m., and read the prayer.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE.

The following answers to questions on notice were circulated:-

GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS AND INSTRUMENTALITIES. MALE AND FEMALE OFFICERS.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) asked the Premier-

What is the number of male and female officers, respectively, in-(a) permanent; and (b) temporary employment, in the Victorian Public Service, the Teaching Service, and the Mental Health Authority, respectively?

-

Permanent officers-Classified teachers .. .. Professional officers .. .. Lecturers in engineering . .

Students in training .. ..

Temporary officers-Temporary teachers .. .. Sewing mistresses .. ..

Total teachers, 1st August, 1970

RURAL REHABILITATION FUND.

BALANCE.

..

..

..

..

..

..

..

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Treasurer-

Whether any funds comprising part of the funds used for the farmers' debts adjustment scheme of the 1930s are held in trust by the State; if so, what amount and whether the Government plans to make use of the funds?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-The answer is-

Yes. The balance at present held in the Rural Rehabilitation Fund is $4,441,184. It


VICTORIAN PUBLIC SERVICE

(under the Public Service Act) as at 15th March, 1971.

Males Females

Males Females

Permanent.

Temporary.

12,031 2,379

3,318 5,053

MENTAL HEALTH AUTHORITY

(under the Mental Health Act) as at 15th March, 1971.

Males Females

Males Females

Permanent.

Temporary.

TEACHING SERVICE

102 8

39 28

(under the Teaching Service Act). I am advised by the Education Depart

ment that a teacher count is conducted twice yearly as at 1st August and 31st March of each year. The latest figures available at present are as at 1st August, 1970, and are as follows:-

Male. Female. Total.

.. 13,229 13,422 26,651

. . 487 76 563 " 7 .. 7

13,723 13,498 27,221 .. 4,941 8,047 12,988

18,664 21,545 40,209

.. 1,974 4,312 6,286

. . .. 78 78

1,974 4,390 6,364

.. 20,638 25,935 46,573

is proposed that these funds will be used in connection with the new rural reconstruction programme.

POLICE DEPARTMENT. ARMED HOLD-UPS.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg) asked the Chief Secretary-

1. How many armed hold-ups have taken place within Victoria over the past five years?

2. On how many occasions police have made arrests in regard to these offences?

3. What types of firearms were used in these hold-ups?

Questions [17 MARCH, 1971.] on Notice. 4101

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).The answers are-

1 and 2.

Year.

1966 1967 1968 1969 1970

Armed hold-ups including attempted

armed hold-ups.

47 82 80 73

144

Offences cleared by

arrest of offenders.

33 37 50 37 70

3. The weapons used in the commission of these offences include knives, revolvers, pistols, imitation or toy pistols, an air rifle, sawn-off pea rifles, sawn-off shotguns, iron bars, knuckle dusters, a shovel, a claw hammer and spanners.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. INSURANCE COVER FOR SCHOOLS.

Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown) asked the Minister of Education-

Whether the Education Department has an insurance fund to cover the cost of fire damage, malicious damage, and burglary in respect of schools; if so, how much has been paid out in respect of each of the above-mentioned causes during the past five years; if not, what has been the cost of restoration to schools resulting from malicious damage, fires, and burglary, over the past five years and from what source this cost was met?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answer is-

Equipment provided for primary and secondary schools eith·er wholly or partly at local cost is insured against fire at State expense. The insurers have paid out the following amounts over the past five years:-

1965-66 1966-67 1967-68 1968-69 1969-70

$ 4,778 1,775

13,782 9,001

33,110 The Education Department does not insure

equipment against loss by theft or vandalism, but subject to the availability of funds replaces such equipment from the education vote. Recorded replacement costs are-

$ 1968-69 13,341 1969-70 5,936

The following expenditure was charged to the Government Buildings Fire Insurance Fund in respect of damage by fire to school buildings:-

1965-66 1966-67 1967-68 1968-69

$ 10,215 50,157 3,436

250

The large number of fires which occurred in the 1969-70 financial year and the restoration of these buildings have involved the design of a number of multi-story buildings costing large sums of money. Information as to the cost of th·ese restorations is being compiled by the Public Works Department at present. The honorable member will be further advised by letter as soon as possible.

ST. ALBANS PRIMARY SCHOOL.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Education-

1. When it is expected that site works around the new brick building at the St. Albans Primary School will commence?

2. What plans the Education Department has for the eradication of rats at this school?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answers are-

1. Funds have been approved for an extensive site works scheme at the St. Albans Primary School and it is hoped that tenders will be invited before the end of term 1. The contract will probably provide for a completion period of three months.

2. The Public Works Department has been asked to take immediate action to eradicate the rats at the school.

HOUSING COMMISSION. PURCHASE OF PROPERTIES IN NORTH

CARLTON.

Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East) asked the Minister of Housing-

Whether the following purchase prices were paid by the Housing Commission for the North Carlton properties situated at(a) 563 Drummond Street, $7,920; (b) 571 Drummond Street, $7,900; (c) 577 Drummond Street, $7,775; (d) 587 Drummond Street, $8,350; (e) 165 Lee Street, $6,279; (f) 167 Lee Street, $6,320; (g) 648 Lygon Street, $9,470; (h) 656 Lygon Street, $8,135; (i) 662 Lygon Street, $8,300; (j) 166, 168 and 170 Princes Street, $25,100; and (k) 192 and 194 Princes Street, $8,800?

Mr. MEAGH·ER (Minister of Housing) .-The answer is-

In my opinion it is the sole prerogative of the vendor to disclose the price he received for his property. For this reason I maintain the policy of the commission that these details are confidential between it and the vendor, and would suggest that if the honorable member wishes to check the figures to which he refers in his question, he should consult the vendor.

4102 Questions [ASSEMBL Y.] on Notice.

MINISTRY OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS.

SERVICES AND PERSONNEL: GOVERNMENT DIRECTIVE.

Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East) asked the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs-

1. Following receipt of Treasury directions requiring cuts in services and personnel, what memoranda have been issued within the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs requiring any, and if so what, restrictions on overtime or hours of work?

2. Whether the services of any, and if so what, temporary employees have been terminated; and hav'e any, and if so what, directives been issued about the employment of temporary employees in future?

3. What other services and facilities have been cut, curtailed or temporarily suspended, specifying in each particular case the service or facility so affected?

4. Whether any, and if so what, building and maintenance programmes have been discontinued or curtailed, specifying in each case the building so affected and the estimated amounts saved as a result of such .curtailment?

5. If he will lay on the table of the Library the file containing all memoranda or any other documents or records issued as a result of the Government's pres'ent economy drive?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister for Aboriginal Affairs) .-The answer is-

I refer the honorable member to the answer supplied by the Premier and Treasurer on Tuesday, 9th March, 1971, in answer to a question headed, "Premier's Department. Services and Personnel: Government Directive ".

SKY HIGH RESTAURANT. GOVERNMENT INT;REST.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister for Fuel and Power, for the Minister for Tourism-

Whether the Government has any financial interest in the Sky High restaurant; if so, what is the extent of the interest and what are the terms of the agreement (if any)?

Mr. BALF'OUR (Minister for Fuel and Power).-The Minister for Tourism has supplied the following answer:-

Yes, the Government erected the restaurant at an estimated cost of $162,000. A lease has been negotiated under sub-section (6) of section 134 of the Land Act 1958.

MINES DEPARTMENT. GRANITE IN BAILEY ROCKS AREA:

LEASE OF LAND.

Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland) asked the Minister of Mines-

Whether a licence has been issued to mine green granite in the Dergholm area near Bailey Rocks; if so, whether this was done in co-operation with the Lands Department?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister of Mines). -The answer is-

No lease or licence pursuant to the provisions of the Extractive Industries Act 1966 authorizing the mining of green granite has been granted over the area known as Bailey Rocks Reserve.

However, an application for a lease over an area some distance away from the reserve is, with the consent of the Lands Department, currently being considered.

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. CRECHES.

Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD (Rodney) asked the Minister of Hea'lth-

1. Whether subsidies are available for the establishment of creches in Victoria; if so, under what conditions?

2. Whether such creches are controlled by the Department of Health in relation to building requirements; if so, whether all existing creches in Victoria presently comply with the requirement of the department?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The answers are--

1. Yes. The subsidies are-For capital: $6,000 on a $2 for $1 basis,

and $14,000 on a $1 for $1 basis; a total of $20,000 in all.

For maintenance: $250 per child per annum, payable provided that staffing, premises, equipment, literature, records and management of the centre are satisfactory to the Department of Health.

2. Yes. To the best of the knowledge of officers of the Department of Health all existing creches comply with the requirements.

HOSPITALS AND CHARITIES COMMISSION.

PUBLIC HOSPITAL COSTS.

Mr. BIRRELL (Geelong) asked the Minister of Hea'lth-

What financial action is being taken to meet the burden of extra costs recently incurred within Victorian public hospitals, and whether fee rises are likely?


Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The answer is-

An additional sum of $3.837 million has been paid into the Hospitals and Charities Fund to meet the increased costs directly due to the 6 per cent increase in wages earlier this year.

MEMBERS: HARNETT G.P. AMBULANCE.

Mr. CURNOW (Kara Kara) asked the Minister of Health-

1. What are the names of-(a) the members of the Hospitals and Charities Commission; and (b) the Superintendent of the Geelong and District Ambulance Service?

2. What is the name and address of the body builders of the new FlOO type ambulances?

3. Whether any member of the commission has any connection with the firm of body builders; if so, who?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health).- The answers are-

1. (a) Dr. J. H. Lindell, (chairman) Mr. A. J. McLellan, (deputy chairman) Mr. R. L. Thomas, (commissioner)

(b) Mr. A. M. Cumming. 2. The successful tenderer for the con

struction of the Hartnett G. P. ambul'ance is the Ford Motor Company of Aust. Ltd., 1724 Sydney Road, Campbellfield, Vic. I understand that the sub-contractor to the Ford Motor Company for the construction of the ambulance bodies is Bodycraft Pty. Ltd., 3 Seaford Street, North Shore, Geelong, Victoria.

3. No member of the commission has any connection with either the Ford Motor Company of Aust. Ltd. or with Bodycraft Pty. Ltd.

CEMETERIES. CEMETERIES AND CREMATORIA

ASSOCIATION OF VICTORIA.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg) asked the Minister of Health-

If he will ascertain and inform the House-

l. In what year the Cemeteries and Crematoria Association of Victoria was established?

2. Who was the person responsible for the formation of this assodation?

3. What are the functions of the association and at what place its meetings are held?

4. How many cemeteries are members and what are their names and location?

5. What are the names and addresses of the officers and members of the association?


The Cemeteries and Crematoria Association of Victoria is nota body within the Ministry of Health 'and the information sought concerning its operations is not known to the Department of Health.

It is understood that the association is a private organization formed about five years ago by the senior execu tive officers of a number of cemetery trusts.

LAWN CEMETERY MEMORIALS.

Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Minister of Health-

If he will 'ascerta:in and inform the House-

l. Whether the Hamilton Public Cemetery Trust agreed in September, 1970, to permit granite memorials on concrete beams in the new lawn cemetery; if so, why?

2. Whether, in November, 1970, the trust decided to ,allow bronze plaques to be the only memorial; ,if so, what were the reasons for this change of poliCY?

3. Whether upright memorial lawn areas are at Fern Tree Gully Cemetery; if so-( a) in what year the areas were commenced; (b) whether the cemetery has benefited from this development, and in that event, to what extent?

4. Whether bronze plaques set flush with 'the ground in the Bendigo L'awn Cemetery have now been removed and set on a concrete beam; if so, why?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The answers are-

1 and 2. I have replied on a number of occasions, both in this House and by letter, to questions asked by the honorable member concerning the Hamilton Public Cemetery Trust.

I refer him to the most recent letter dated 2nd March, 1971, in which reference is made to my reply to 'a question in this House on 16th December, 1970.

3. Yes. (a) in 1967; (b) the trust has been required to find funds for the cost of the concrete beams necessary to permit upright memorials to be installed. Any benefits that may have ,accrued to the trust would have been due to easier maintenance of the l'awn type cemetery as compared with the cost of upkeep of the traditional cemetery. There has been a substantial increase in the number of burial rights sold, probably due to an increase in the population of the district.

4. Yes. This was a decision of the Bendigo Cemetery Trust acting properly in accordance with its powers under the Cemeteries Act 1958.

4104 Questions [ASSEMBL Y.] on Notice.

MUNICIPALITIES.

EXPENDITURE ON LIGHTING OF

HIGHWAYS AND FREEWAYS.

Mr. WHEELER (Essendon) asked the Minister of Transport, for the Minister for Local Govemment-

If he will ascertain and inform the House, what amounts were expended by municipalities during each of the years 1967-68, 1968-69 and 1969-70, on lighting of-(a) State highways; and (b) freeways?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answer supplied by the Minister for Local Government is-

This information can be obtained only by circulating all councils in Victoria and the information will be supplied to the honorable member when it is available.

VERMIN AND NOXIOUS WEEDS DESTRUCTION BOARD.

POISON 1080. Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland) asked

the Minister of Lands-What is the percentage of kill of poison

1080 with respect to-( a) rabbits; and (b) other animals and birds?

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) .-The answer is-

From surveys made of rabbit populations on given areas three weeks prior to the use of poison 1080 and three weeks after its use, the estimated percentage of kill has been as high as 95 per cent of the rabbit population.

Such a survey has not been carried out on native animals and birds. Some losses do occur with animals, but birds show a high tolerance to poison 1080 at the strength mixed for rabbit poisoning.

From observations made on picking up dead rabbits and covering poisoned bait, it is clearly indicated that losses in other animals and birdlife are not in any way detrimental to the survival of the species.

DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR AND INDUSTRY.

RURAL SAFETY OFFICER: EDUCATIONAL AND PROMOTIONAL WORK.

Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry-

Further to his answer to question No. 40, asked in this House on Tuesday, 16th March, 1971, what amount of money was allocated during each of the past five financial years for the educational and promotional work undertaken throughout Victoria by the rural safety officer?

Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answer is-

The answer to this question is the same as that which I gave to the question headed, "Department of Labour and Industry, Safety in Rural Industry", asked in this House by the honorable member on Tuesday, 16th March, 1971, namely: "There is no specific allocation for rural safety work ".

SOCIAL WELFARE DEPARTMENT. RESPONSIBILITY AND ASSISTANCE FOR

PENSIONERS AND AGED PERSONS.

Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East) asked the Minister for Social Welfare-

1. Whether the Social Welfare Department accepts responsibility for the welfare of persons who receive pensions, aged persons not eligible for a pension, and aged persons receiving superannuation or other fixed incomes, respectively; if so-( a) what is the nature of the responsibility; and (b) what assistance is given in such cases?

2. What plans the department has to meet the needs of the aged generally?

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Minister for Social Welfare).-The answers are-

1. The Social Welfare Department does not accept responsibility for the welfare of persons who receive pensions from the Commonwealth, nor for those whose superannuation or other income makes them ineligible for such pensions.

2. The department has no current plans concerning aged persons.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE.

DRIVING LICENCE TESTS. Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).

Has the Chief Secretary noted reports that the driving licence test is not strict enough for drivers of high speed vehicles? If so, does the Government contemplate tightening the test for drivers of this type of motor vehicle?

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).I have noted the publicity in regard to this matter, which is being examined by me at present.

COBBOBOONEE FOREST. Mr. W. J. LEWIS (portland).

According to a press report yesterday the Minister of Forests has stated

Questions [17 MARCH, 1971.] without Notice. 4105

that 6,000 acres of Cobboboonee forest near Portland will be bulldozed. Can the Minister inform me whether the whole area will be bulldozed or whether some consideration will be given to the request of the Western Victorian Conservation Committee for 400 or 500 acres of messmate timber to be allowed to remain?

Mr. MEAGH,ER (Minister of Forests).-The report to which the honorable member refers bore little resemblance to the information given to the press. The facts are that in the Cobboboonee area since 1961 the Forests Commission has been engaged in a project to plant some 40,000 acres of pine trees, the object being to provide the basis for a timber industry based on Portland which it is estimated could on completion employ approximately 300 men in the field and 1,000 men in the industry. Already an area of 13,000 acres of the 40,000 acres has been planted. An area of approximately 130,000 acres is being retained as native bush, including all the areas of messmate stands to which the letter published in the newspaper referred. The gentleman who wrote the letter is completely misinformed on the subject and has obviously taken ten years to realize that the project is under way.

HIGH SCHOOL FOR CARLTON AREA.

Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East). -I direct a question to the Minister of Education. Is a new secondary school proposed for the Carlton area? If so, could the Minister inform the House how far plans have been developed for this school?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education).-A new high school is proposed for that general area, but as yet no date has been fixed for its erection. Meanwhile, plans are at an advanced stage for the letting of tenders for the reconstruction of Princes Hill High School in that area.

REPORTS OF TEACHERS TRIBUNAL.

Mr~ FORDHAM (Footscray).-Is the Minister of Education aware that, in direct contravention of section 19 of the Teaching Service Act, the annual reports of the Teachers Tribunal for the year ended 30th June, 1969, and the year ended 30th June, 1970, have yet to be published? Can the Minister explain why these reports have not been published? Is it because the Chairman of the Teachers Tribunal is critical of the Government in these reports?

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! Is the operation of the Teachers Tribunal a matter of Government administration?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education).-It is not a matter under the direct administration of the Minister of Education, but I am quite willing to direct the attention of the Chairman of the Teachers Tribunal to the fact that last year's report has not yet been tabled. Most certainly the suggested reason for the absence of that report is inaccurate.

LABELLING OF CIGARETTE PACKETS.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).I direct a question to the Minister of Health. In view of the fact that the Anti-Cancer Council of Victoria, the Victorian State Council of the Liberal Party and the honorable member for Broadmeadows consider that health warning notices should be placed on packets of cigarettes and tobacco, why is the Minister oppo$ed to the proposal?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-1 regret that this question may foreshadow another series of questions on this subject, such as those which were a blot upon the last sessional period of Parliament. The situation with regard to warning labels on cigarette packets was clearly explained last year. The Opposition put forward an adjournment

4106 Questions [ASSEMBL Y.] without Notice.

motion on it and failed miserably. Since that time significant changes have occurred in world opinion.

Honorable members interjecting. The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon

'Christie).-Order! In question time there should be one question at a time and not a continuous number of questions asked by inordinately out-of -order interjectors.

Mr. ROSSITER.-It sometimes defeats me, Sir, why I, a reasonable and ineffectual sort of character, attract this type of "broo-ha-ha" in the House. The answer is simply that at the next conference of State Ministers of Health, in conjunction with the, Federal Government, the matter will be re-examined.

PROBATE LEGISLATION. Mr. TREWIN (Benalla).-Will the

Premier indicate to the House whether the Probate Duty Bill passed in the last sessional period has been proclaimed; if not, why, and when will it be proclaimed?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-When I introduced the Bill, I explained that its purpose was to increase the probate duty rebate on rural estates from 30 per cent to 50 per cent, and to apply the rebate to stock and improvements, as well as land. I said that I reserved the right to withhold the proclamation until I could convince the powersthat-be in Canberra that unless they gave a similar concession all Victoria was doing was making a concession from which the Federal Government was getting an advantage. If Canberra fails to agree, I shall still arrange to have the legislation proclaimed, probably in the near future. I do not think it is right that this Parliament should pass 'legislation granting a concession to rural industries which would save some thousands of dollars in probate on an estate valued at, say, $100,000, but which would enable the Federal Government to levy a higher estate duty on the residue. That is why the Probate Duty Bill 1970 has not been proclaimed.

PAY-ROLL TAX. Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Is the

Premier aware of a press statement attributing to the new Prime Minister a statement that he will transfer the pay-roll tax to the State as a growth tax for State finances? If so, does the Premier consider that collection of pay-roll tax by the State would be sufficient to allow Victoria to get out of its financial trouble?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-This is a matter entirely of opinion, but in any case this is a press report, and if it is as inaccurate as a report in the Age this morning I would not even be bothered giving time to consider it. The report in the Age to which I refer was an answer I am supposed to have given to a question asked by the honorable member for Mildura, and I am reported as having said that the professorial and university staffs in Victoria were the best paid in Australia. Of course, I did not say that. Honorable members heard me say that their finances were the most satisfactory in Australia.

DARTMOUTH DAM. Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).

In view of the recent action by the South Australian Premier, when does the Minister of Water Supply expect that work will start on the Dartmouth dam?

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Has that question been asked in this session before?

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply) .-The question asked by the honorable member during the current sessional period was whether I would be prepared to visit the site of the Dartmouth dam. At present the Law Department is studying legislation which was introduced in the South Australian Parliament by the Premier of that State. Before any decision can be made about Victoria's course of action as a result of the South AU'stralian legislation, further discussions must take place between the four parties to the' agreement, nan1ely, the Federal Government


and the Governments of New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia. Because of the financial hardship being faced in this State, the Dartmouth dam will certainly not be commenced during this financial year.

HAZELWOOD POWER STATION. Mr. AMOS (Morwell).-I ask the

Minister for Fuel and Power: Is it a fact that there are serious mechanical and technical faults at the Hazelwood power station; and is it also a fact that these faults were the main reason for the abortive opening of the station last week?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power) .-Would the honorable member please repeat the last part of his question?

Mr. AMOS (MorwelI).-1 asked the Minister whether it was also a fact that these serious technical and mechanical faults within the Hazelwood power station were the real reason for the postponement of the opening of the station.

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power) .-It is true that there are mechanical and technical defects in the Hazelwood power station which have caused some of the boilers and turbines not to operate as efficiently and effectively as they should. To the best of the ability of the State Electricity Commission and its contractors, these defects are being put right as quickly as possible.

Certainly the cancellation of the opening of the Hazelwood power station last week had nothing to do with the technical and mechanical defects in the station. The reason given by the commissioners for the postponement of the opening was that the Municipal Officers Association had told the commissioners that if their claims were nat met by the Wednesday night, not only the Hazelwood station but also the Latrobe Valley station would be shut down to half power available to the metropolitan area and the remainder of the State from 6 a.m. on Thursday. As the commissioners could not obtain a

guarantee from the Municipal Officers Association that this industrial action would not occur, the opening of the station was cancelled.

PAKENHAM HIGH SCHOOL. Mr. MACLELLAN (Gippsland

West) .-Will the Minister of Education inform the House of any proposals for increasing accommodation and staff facilities at the Pakenham High School, and whether the Minister has received any representations from Mr. Lindsay Thompson, who is the principal of that school?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Edu~ cati'On) .-Unfortunately, my double was not available yesterday to comment on the situation, but I will discuss the matter with the Director of Secondary Education, Mr. Schruhm, who will confer with the said gentleman tomorrow with a view to either redirecting 'Some pupils to neighbouring schools which are not completely filled, or providing alternative accommodation or additional teachers for them.

Originally there was a request from the head master of the school saying that he required only .5 of a mathematics teacher. This week it was learned that that report was not correct and that in fact the school requires two additional teachers.

PROPOSED HIGH SCHOOL AT HAMILTON.

Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas).Is the Minister of Education aware that land at Hamilton in respect of which negotiations were being conducted in relation to a proposed high school has been sold to private enterprise, and is he taking steps to secure other land for the school?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The Education Department is interested in the purchase of other land in that area for the purpose of building a high school on it at some time in the future. The department will examine alternative sites.

4108 Questions [ASSEMBLY.] without Notice.

AIR POLLUTION. Mr. DOUBE (Albert Park).-Is the

Minister of Health aware that health 'experts are concerned at increasing :air pollution caused by lead and asbestos? This has resulted from the use of high octane petrol and asbestos brake and clutch linings. Is the Minister's department monitoring the atmosphere to ascertain the amount of lead and asbestos it contains; if so, what have been the results of those tests?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The answer to the first two parts of the honorable member's question is, " Yes ". When the results of monitoring are available, I shall convey them to the honorable member.

COMMONWEALTH CONSTITUTION.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).Will the Premier inform the House concerning the response of the Premiers of other States to the various letters which he has sent to them concerning a convention to amend the Commonwealth Constitution?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (premier and Treasurer) .-The response has been excellent. I am practically assured of the co-operation not only of the other Premiers but also of Leaders of the Opposition in the various States. Naturally, it will take some time for the matter to be submitted to the Parliaments and to the various parties, but I believe that action has been set in train.

LAND CONSERVATION COUNCIL. Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-Will the

Minister of Lands inform the House whether members of the Land Conservation Council have yet been appointed, and, if so, has the council yet met to discuss problems relating to land tenure; if not, when is the council expected to meet?

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) .-Yes, the members of the council havp. been appointed. They

are Mr. Dimmick, who is the permanent chairman, and Mr. Claude Austin, Mr . John Landy and Professor John Turner, who are the appointed members. So far the council has not met, but its first meeting is listed for 1st April.

HEIDELBERG TRAIN SERVICE. Mr. FELL (Greensborough) .

Can the Minister of Transport inform me of the interval between regular cleanings of metropolitan trainsparticularly those which operate on the Heidelberg line-and whether he is aware that a number of complaints have been received during the past week about the extremely dirty condition of the interior of the carriages?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The cleaning of railway carriages is a problem. In addition to employing a number of cleaners. within the past twelve months the Victorian Railways have also engaged women cleaners at Glen Waverley. I believe that to be a positive step towards improving the situation. I do not know whether a sufficient number of cleaning ladies are available on the Greensborough line, but I shall consult with the Railways Commissioners to ascertain whether it is feasible to adopt a similar system in that area. Although railway carriages are regularly cleaned, I agree that they are not cleaned often enough. In part, this is brought about by the problem of rising costs, particularly labour costs; however, another contributory cause is that the travelling public of Australia are among the most untidy in the world. It would be helpful if the honorable member encouraged rail travellers on his line to adopt cleaner habits in relation to litter.

LAKE MOKOAN.

Mr. TREWIN (Benalla).-Can the Minister of Water Supply inform me whether the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission has any plans to provide recreational facilities on the


shores of Lake Mokoan and also whether it is the commission's intention to establish a wildlife sanctuary on this lake?

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply) .-It is too premature to answer the first part of the question relating to recreational facilities at Lake Mokoan because the construction work is not expected to be completed for about twelve months. However, $14,000 has been spent on establishing a wildlife sanctuary on Lake Mokoan.

MELBOURNE-CASTLEMAIN·E RAILWAY LINE.

Mr. SHILTON (Midlands).-Can the Minister of Transport advise the House why the Chewton railway station on the main MelbourneCastlemaine line was closed, and whether it is proposed to close any other small stations on this line?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport).-If the honorable member will place his question on the Notice Paper, I shall provide an answer.

CONSTRUCTION OF RAILWAY CARRIAGES.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North). -Can the Minister of Transport explain why contracts for the construction of railway carriages for the Victorian system are given to private firms when the Victorian Railways workshops could be developed for this purpose?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport).-I have consulted the Railways Commissioners on this matter. If the honorable member is speaking of orders placed for suburban rail carriages, I inform him that an order was placed within the past twelve months for a number of new trains which will be supplied only over a period of years as finance is available. All honorable members would like more money to be available in order to obtain these carriages more speedily.

In general, the contract is quite a good mixture because the main contract has been given to a Victorian

firm, Martin and King Pty. Ltd., and a substantial amount of the work is also being undertaken in the Newport workshops.

Mr. CURNow.-What about Bendigo and Ballarat?

Mr. WILCOX.-The Bendigo and Ballarat workshops are being maintained by the Victorian Railways at considerable cost to aid decentralization. The matter raised by the honorable member for Geelong North has been carefully considered. The Railways Commissioners believe that they have a clear duty to place their contracts in the most economical terms available and that in this case the mixture to which I have referred is the proper way of placing contracts.

PORTFOLIO OF MINISTER FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).I ask the Premier: Following the resignation of the Minister for Local Government in another place, who will now handle this portfolio?

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-The question is out of order.

STUDENTS' CONCESSION FARES. Mr. DOUBE Albert Park).-As

children are remaining at school until they attain a more mature age than formerly, will the Minister of Transport consider raising the age limit for which half fares apply on trams and trains?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport).-This question could be finally dealt with only by the Treasurer because, as all honorable members know, considerable sums of money are contributed to social services, in this case for cheap conveyance of school children travelling on concession. It would be rather difficult, in the present financial situation, for even the honorable member to urge the Treasurer to increase the concession.

4110 Questions [ASSEMBLY. ] without Notice.

MUNICIPAL SOCIAL SERVICES. Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East).

-I address a question to' the Minister for Social Welfare. In view of the increasing interest of municipalities in expanding social welfare services, can the Minister explain why he has taken action, at Cabinet level, to prevent the expansion 'of these services?

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Minister for Social Welfare) .-1 have no knowledge of the matter raised by the honorable member.

MUNICIPAL BORROWING. Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Does

the Treasurer contemplate any reduction in the amount of money which local government authorities will be allowed to borrow this year?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-1 confidently predict that the authorized level of borrowing by local government authorities, particularly in the under $300,000 category, will remain the same. That means that they will have an open go. Overall, the total borrowings will probably be lower, not because of any restriction placed on the municipalities but because they will not be able to raise all the money they wish to raise. Possibly, if it had not been for the Minsec fiasco and others there would have been dire trouble this year for semi-governmental borrowers. However, I am happy to report that prospects for both semi-governmental and local government borrowing have improved considerably during the past month or so. I had fears, particularly for the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works. That organization has not been particularly successful in raising loans. I felt that it might not be able to raise anything like the amount allotted to it, but there now seems to be some chance that even that board will come within measurable distance of raising what it wants. The over-all position has improved and I believe there will be no alteration next year.

RAILWAY CONTRACTS. Mr. FELL (Greensborough) .-

1 ask the Minister of Transport whether it is a fact that tenders calling for the supply of cross arms to be erected at railway crossings specify that a reflective paint produced overseas must be used. If that is so, will the M'inister investigate the claim of local manufacturers that their products are as good as or better than those produced overseas?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-1 will be happy to discuss this matter with the Railways Commissioners but 1 would be surprised if there were some such specification. Not all contracts come to me to place before the Governor in Council for ratification but, as a result of examing those which do, I have been greatly impressed by the thoroughness with which the Victorian Railways examines the source of manufacture of ma terials to be used. This is carefully studied and worked out. If what is suggested is true, 1 am sure there must be a good reason for it. As I have said, I shall discuss the matter with the Railways Commissioners.

JUSTICES OF THE PEACE. Mr DOUBE (Albert Park).-I ad

dress a question to the AttorneyGeneral. In view of the fact that people are being appointed to high positions in the business and academic world at younger ages than was formerly the case, will the honorable gentleman consider lowering the age at which a person may be appointed a justice of the peace? I understand that the minimum age is 35 years.

Mr. REID (Attorney-General) .The age of 35 years fixed for appointment as a justice of the peace was decided upon because it is not the practice to appoint a person as a stipendiary magistrate until he reaches that age. The principle of applying a minimum age is subject to the exception that a person may become a justice ex officio, even though he is under 35 years of age, if he is the mayor or president of a municipality, or a member of the Executive Council. Such a

Motor Car (Driving [17 MARCH, 1971.] Offences) Bill. 4111

person would remain a justice of the peace only while he held office. The principle of applying a minimum age of 35 years is sound, and it is not proposed to alter it.

COUNTY COURT (JURISDICTION) BILL.

Mr. REID (Attorney-General) moved for leave Ito bring in a Bill to amend the County Court Act 1958.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was brought in and read

a first time.

TRUSTEE COMPANIES (EQUITY TRUSTEES) BILL.

Mr. REID (Attorney-General) moved for leave -to bring in a Bill to vary the restrictions imposed in relation to the capital and shares of the Equity Trustees Executors and Agency Company Limited, to amend the second schedule of the Trustee Companies Act 1958 and for other purp'Oses.


a first time.

SCAFFOLDING BILL. Mr. RAFFERTY ('Minister of

Labour and Industry) moved for leave to bring in a Bill to make provision with respect to the erecti'On and use of scaffolding and for other purposes.

The m'Otion was agreed to. The Bill was brought in and read

a first time.

MOTOR CAR (DRIVING OFFENCES) BILL.


That this Bill be now read a second time. Its main purpose is to strengthen the law as it relates t'O the person wh'O dT'ives a motor car whilst affected by int'Oxicating 'liquor. The provisions are mainly influenced by the recommendations of the Joint Select Committee 'On Road Safety in its fourth, fifth and sixth progress reports. The

BiH also makes a number 'Of T'elatively minor amendments to the Motor Car Act concerning fees associated with application and testing for a motor driver's licence and a driving instructor's licence and the display of "P" plates.

At present the law relating to the admissibility of evidence as to the percentage 'Of alcohol in the blood of a person obtained from blood tests and breath tests at the time of an alleged offence is contained in the Crimes Act 1958. Section 408 'Of that Act relates to evidence in connection with blood tests and section 408A relates to evidence in connection with breath tests.

The provisions creating the offences of driving a m'Otor car whilst the percentage of alcohO'I in the blood is more than .05 have always been contained in the Motor Car Act. In 1967 the' provisi'Ons 'Of the Crimes Act 1958, which made it an 'Offence for a person to drive a motor car whilst under the influence of intoxicating liquor, were transferred to section 80B of the Motor Car Act 1958 and the offence is now dealt with summarily.

Now that the driving under the influence provisi'Ons are c'Ontained in the Motor Car Act 1958 it is appropriate to transfer to that Act from the Crimes Act 1958 the ,law relating to the admissibility of evidence obtained from blood tests and from breath tests, where the question of intoxication is relevant with respect to certain 'Offences arising out of the driving 'Of a m'Otor car. As AttorneyGeneral, and therefore the Minister responsible for administering the Crimes Act, I have advocated this change 'and supp'oIted Ithe m'Oves of my predecessor a's Chief Secretary to have it made.

Clause 7 'Of the Bill inserts four new sections into the Motor Car Act 1958. The new sections '80D and 80F refer to blood rests and breath tests respectively. These two new sections re-enact the preS'ent provisions 'Of the Crimes Act with 'certain changes which I shaH now explain to h'OnoT'able m'embers.

4112 Motor Car (Driving [ASSEMBLY.] Offences) Bill.

I shall deal first with blood tests. The present provisions of section 408 of the Crimes Act permit 'evidence t'O be given of the percentage of alcohol found by a properly qualified analyst at the time of h'is analysis to be present in a sample of blood taken within eight hours of an alleged offence. The section als'O enables evidence to be given of the opinion of the analyst based on his analysis of the sample, the interval of time which had elapsed and other relevant circumstances as to the percentage of alcohol in the blood alt the time of the alleged offence.

The director of the Police Forensic Science Laboratory has advised the Government that it is now the opinion of most properly qualified analysts that it is impossible for an analyst to calculate backwards in an endeavour to assess the blood alcohol content at the time of an alleged offence. The Government accepts this advice. Sub-section (1) of the new section 80D does not now permit evidence to be given as to the opinion of the analyst as ,to the percentage of alcohol which was present in the blood at the time of the alleged offence. The director has now advised that the statutory period of eight hours Within which a blood test must be taken is historical and is mostly related to the endeavour of the analyst to calculate the blood alcohol content at the time of the offence. Under the present law a sample of breath for analysis by a breath analysing instrument must be taken within two hours of the alleged offence and this time limit is retained under this Bill. The Government is advised that a similar time limit would be satisfactory for the taking of a sample of blood.

Sub-section (l) of the new section 80D permits evidence to be given as to the taking of a sample of blood by a legally qualified medical practitioner within two hours of the alleged offence. In future evidence may not be given as to the opinion of the analyst as to the percentage of alcohol in the blood at the time of

Mr. Reid.

the alleged offence, and the period within which a sample of blood may be taken for analysis and the period within which a sample of breath may be furnished for analysis by a breath analysing instrument will both be two hours.

The new section 80F brings the provisions of the Crimes Act relating to the admissibility of evidence obtained from breath tests into the Motor Car Act and I shall now refer to the changes in those provisions which will be brought about by this Bill.

In its sixth progress report, the Joint Select Committee recommended that-legislation should be introduced to enable police to carry out spot checks upon any person in charge of a motor vehicle to determine his alcohol involvement.

The Bill does not provide absolutely for spot checks but it gives the police a much wider power than the present law to require a driver of a motor car or a person in charge of a motor car to undergo a test to determine his alcohol involvement.

At present, pursuant to section 408A of the Crimes Act 1958, a member of the Police Force may require a person to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis by a breath analysing instruments only where he believes on reasonable grounds that-

(a) within the last two preceding hours the person has been driving a motor car or has been in charge of a motor car; and

(b) whilst driving or in charge has behaved in a manner which indicates that his ability to drive a motor car was impaired at the time when he was so driving or in charge.

Under the new section 80E the powers of a member of the force to require a driver or person in charge to furnish a sample of breath for analysis are much wider.

Under that section a member of the force may at any time require a person he finds driving a motor car


or in charge of a motor car to undergo a preliminary breath test if he believes on reasonable grounds based upon his personal observation that that person has consumed intoxicating liquor within the last two preceding hours. The member of the force may also require a person to undergo a preliminary breath test if he believes on reasonable grounds that the person was driving a motor car or was in charge of a motor car when it was involved in an accident on a highway. The person who is required to undergo a preliminary breath test will be required to exhale into a prescribed device.

It may be relevant for me to produce one of these devices to show it to the House. The party involved blows into the bag and if he has an excessive alcohol content the material in the bag becomes yellow in colour. This is the basis of a preliminary breath test. I do not think it would be in accordance with Standing Orders for me to blow into the bag, but there is no cause to doubt my reasons for not doing so. I assure the House that I tested the bag in the presence of the Under-Secretary this afternoon and it showed no alcoholic content.

This device will not disclose the actual level of concentration of alcohol in the person's blood but will merely indicate whether the percentage of alcohol in the person's blood is greater or less than .05. Where the preliminary breath test indicates that the percentage of alcohol in a person's blood is greater than .05, the member of the force may require that person to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis by a breath analysing instrument.

Evidence will not be presented to courts as to the result of a preliminary breath test. The device will be used merely as a quick means of ascertaining whether a person has such a percentage of alcohol in his blood that he should be required to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis by a properly calibrated and tested instrument under the care and supervision of a trained operator.

At paragraph 2.0.2. of its sixth progress report, the committee recommended-

Spot checks should be carried out by specially trained police.

The use of the preliminary breath test device is elementary and need not be operated by specially trained police. However, the breath analysing instrument will continue to be operated by trained and authorized members of the force. A member may also, as he can now, require a person to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis by a breath analysing instrument if that person behaves in a manner which indicates that his ability to drive a motor car is impaired. Such a requirement may be made without the person undergoing a preliminary breath test.

Under the Bill it will be an offence for any person to refuse or fail to undergo a preliminary breath test or to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis when required by a member of the force. The penalty for such refusal or failure will be for a first offence a fine of not more than $100 or, in the case of a second or subsequent offence, a fine of not more than $200 or to imprisonment for not more than one month. In addition to imposing a fine or term of imprisonment, it will be mandatory upon the court convicting the person of the offence of refusing or failing to undergo a preliminary breath test or to furnish a sample of breath to cancel the licence of that person and in the case of the first offence, t~ disqualify him from obtaining a licence for not less than twelve months and, in the case of a second or subsequent offence, to disqualify him from obtaining a licence for not less than two years.

Under the provisions of section 408A of the Crimes Act, a person is not obliged to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis except-

(i) within two hours of the alleged offence;

4114 Motor Car (Driving [ASSEMBLY. J Offences) Bill.

(ii) at or in the vicinity of the place where the alleged offence occurred, " at a police station nearest to that place or (if that police sta tion is then locked and entry cannot readily be obtained therein) within the grounds or precincts" of the police station.

Persons who have been clearly guilty of driving with alcohol in excess of .05 per cent in the blood have escaped conviction by taking the technical defence that it has not been proved whether or not the police station at which a person was required to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis was the nearest police station to the place where the alleged offence occurred.. Subsection (2) of the new sectIOn 80E and sub-section (8) of the new section 80F remove this technicality by placing an obligation upo~ a. person required to undergo a prehmmary breath test or to furnish a sample of breath for analysis to do so at any police station or wit~in the ~round. or precincts of any pohce statIOn whIch is locked or entry cannot readily be obtained.

At paragraph 2.0.1. of its fourth progress report, the Joint Select Committee recommended that-

All drivers who are involved in motor vehicle accidents and who would normally be required to furnish breath samples but who attend hospital before it is possible or practical for such breath samples to be taken should be blood tested. Such blood tests should be subject to all the safeguards which already exist in pres~nt l~gislat~on including the manner and time In whIch blood samples should be taken from drivers of motor vehicles.

Sub-section (2) of new section 80E and sub-section (8) of new section 80F further extend the obligation of a person to undergo a preliminary breath test or to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis at any place where he is receiving medical treatment but with a specific safeguard.

Under those sections, if a person has been taken from the place where the alleged offence occurred for medical treatment, the member of the

Mr. Reid.

force may require that person to undergo a preliminary breath test or to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis by a breath analysing instrument at the place where he is receiving such medical treatment. However, where the person who is required to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis by a breath analysing instrument is receiving medical treatment, a legally qualified medical practitioner in immediate charge of that treatment may object to the person furnishing a sample of his brea th on the ground tha tit would be prejudicial to his proper care and treatment. If the practitioner so objects, the person will not be obliged to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis.

The Bill does not make it compulsory for a blood test to be taken as recommended by the Joint Select Committee. Such a provision would be inconsistent with the scheme of the Act which provides for compulsory breath tests only. The amendment enables the medical practitioner to take a sample of blood of the person if the medical practitioner thinks fit and without the need to obtain consent.

If the medical practitioner does take the sample of blood, then pursuant to sub-section (9) of the new section 80F, no action shall lie against him for taking a sample without the consent of that person having been given. A consequential amendment is made to sub-section (11) of section 80D in order that a sample of blood as provided in sub-section (9) of section 80F may be taken without consent.

Under section 408A of the Crimes Act 1958, it is e~pressly provided tha t a person shall not be convicted of the offence of refusing to submit to a breath test if it is proved that within two· hours of the alleged offence the person required to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis elected to have a sample of blood taken from him for analysis and that 'at all times within the period of eight hours of the alleged offence-which


is the period within which a blood sample must be taken-he was ready and willing to have a sample of his blood so taken. In a number of instances, persons, knowing that facilities for the taking of a sample of blood by a legally qualified medical practitioner were not readily available, have been using that provision to avoid the furnishing of a sample of breath for analysis.

At paragraphs 2.0.1. and 2.0.2. of its fifth progress report, the Joint Select Committee recommended-

2.0.1. A person should no longer be able to elect to have a blood test instead of a breath test to establish his blood alcohol content. The taking of a breath analysis test should be compulsory in all circumstances for which the use of the breathalyser is prescribed in the Crimes Act 1958.

2.0.2. Persons as described under the Crimes Act 1958 suspected of having a blood alcohol content in excess of .05 per cent should always have the right to require a blood test. Accordingly there should be a statutory requirement that where a driver at the time of taking a breath analysis test requests the services of a medical practitioner to take a blood sample, the informant should be required to take all reasonable steps to secure the services of a medical practitioner for that Furpose. If he fails to do so, the result 0 the breath analysis test should be inadmissible. The provisions of sub-section (13) of the new section 80F substantially reflect the recommendations of the committee. This sub-section will enable any person who has been required to furnish a sample of his breath for analysis to request the member of the force to arrange for the taking, at his own expense and in the presence of that member, of a sample of blood for analysis by a legally qualified medical practitioner nominated by himself or by a member of the force at his request.

A person requesting such a sample of blood to be taken must nevertheless furnish a sample of his breath for analysis. The making of a request for the taking of a sample of blood will not relieve the person from his obligation to furnish a sample of his breath.

The Bill follows the recommendation of the committee that the taking of a breath analysis test should be

compulsory in all circumstances and it permits the person to obtain a blood test by a legally qualified medical practitioner nominated by himself for his own purposes. The Government, however, is not prepared to adopt that part of the recommendation of the committee that the failure by the informant to comply with the request for a blood test should make the result of a breath analysis inadmissible. To do so, in the opinion of the Government, would give rise to countless technical defenoes. I can assure the House that appropriate instructions will be given to members of the force to ensure that if a request is made in accordance with the subsection the member will accede to that request whenever practicable.

At paragraphs 2.0.2. and 2.0.3. of its fourth progress report the Joint Select Committee recommended-

2.0.2. All convicted drivers who have been subjected to a chemical test-i.e. breath, blood or urine test-and whose blood alcohol content exceeds .15 per cent, should be required to attend a specialized centre. At the centre the driver will be assessed and if required treated for problem drinking.

2.0.3. Additional assessment and treatment centres should be established in country and metropolitan areas. These centres should be under the control of the Department of Health and attached to public hospitals.

At present the Department of Health is in the process of setting up an alcoholics and drug dependants' service under the Alcoholics and Drugdependent Persons Act 1968. Until at least one hospital centre and one rehabilitation centre have been established it will be impracticable to operate an assessment centre. In these circumstances it is considered advisable . to defer consideration of recommendations 2.0.2. and 2.0.3. until such time as hospital assessment and rehabilitation centres under that Act have been developed.

At paragraphs 2.0.4., 2.0.5. and 2.0.6. of its sixth progress report the committee recommended that drivers with more than the prescribed alcohol level of .05 per cent should be


automatically disqualified from holding a licence to drive on a sliding scale as follows:-

(i) .05 per cent- 3 months. (ii) .10 per cent- 6 months.

(iii) .15 per cent-I2 months. (iv) .2 per cent and above-2 years.

With the exception of category (iv) this sliding scale of penalties is provided for in the new sub-section (3) which is to be inserted in section 8IA of the principal Act by clause 8 of the Bill.

Category (iv) has been excluded from the scale because it is considered undesirable to have a minimum period of disqualification in excess of that provided for a person convicted of the offence of driving under the influence. A person who has been disqualified from obtaining a licence pursuant to the new subsection (3) for having a percentage of alcohol in the blood of .1 per cent or more or for a second or subsequent offence of driving a motor car with a percentage of alcohol in excess of .05, cannot be issued with another licence to drive a motor car except upon an order of the Magistrates Court which is nearest or most accessible to his place of residence.

For the purpose of determining whether or not the order should be made, the court is required to hear any relevant evidence tendered either by the applicant or the Chief Commissioner and any evidence of a legally qualified medical practitioner required by the court. In addition. the court is required to have regard to the conduct of the applicant with respect to intoxicating liquor during the period of disqualification, his physical and mental conditions at the time of the hearing of the application and the effect which the making of an order may have upon the safety of the applicant and the public.

A similar provision already exists with respect to a person who has been disqualified from obtaining a licence for a second or subsequent offence of driving with a percentage

Mr. Reid.

of alcohol in his blood of more than .05. However, that present provision does not empower the court to require evidence of a legally qualified medical practitioner or as to the location of the court.

Clause 9 makes complementary amendments to section 80B of the principal Act which makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor car whilst under the influence of intoxicating liquor. Section 80B already requires a person convicted of the offence of driving a motor car under the influence of intoxicating liquor and disqualified from obtaining a licence to drive a motor car, to apply to a Magistrates Court for restora tion of his licence. The section also requires the court to take certain matters into consideration in deciding whether or not to refuse or make the order sought.

The Bill extends the provisions of section 80B in that it requires the person applying for restoration of his licence under section 80B to do so at the Magistrates Court which is the nearest or most accessible to his place of residence. The amendment also enables the court to require evidence of a legally qualified medical practitioner. After amendment by this Bill, the requirements as to application for restoration of a licence and the matters to be taken into consideration by the court under sections 80B and 81A will be the same.

The new section BOG provides that if it is established that at any time within two hours of the alleged offence a certain percentage of alcohol was present in the blood of the person charged, it shall be presumed until the contrary is proved that not less than that percentage of alcohol was present in the person's blood at the time at which the offence is alleged to have been committed. A similar presumption is presently contained in sub-section (2) of section BIA of the principal Act. However, that presumption is restricted to the offence of driving a motor car while the percentage of alcohol in the blood


is more than .05. The new section 80G makes the presumption as to the level of alcohol in the blood applicable to aU offences.

The Bill empowers the police to arrest without warrant any person who drives a motor car whilst the percentage of alcohol in his blood is more than .05 or who refuses or fails to undergo a preliminary breath test or to furnish a sample of his blood for analysis. Any person who drives a motor car whilst under the influence of intoxicating liquor, by virtue of sub-section (3) of section 80B of the Motor Car Act, may be arrested by a member of the force without warrant. It is considered necessary in the public interest to give the same power to the police with respect to any person driving with a percentage of alcohol in his blood in excess of .05.

I now refer to the relatively minor amendments made by this Bill with respect to fees associated with testing for motor drivers' licences and driving instructors' licences and the display of "P" plates.

Under the provisions of section 22 of the principal Act, the Chief Commissioner is empowered to charge an applicant for a driver's licence or for endorsement of his licence to drive a heavy vehicle, an articulated motor car, or large trailer combination, a fee of $2 for a test to determine his qualification to have such a licence or endorsement. The present testing fee of $2 does not cover the costs of conducting that test. Accordingly, clause 2 of the Bill increases the test fee from $2 to $4.

In addition, the Chief Commissioner has advised the Government that the demand on the time of police and civilian testers is such that when applicants for driving tests or endorsement make unnecessary bookings, cancel bookings, or do not keep the appointments, the police and civilian testers, and the persons waiting to make appointments for such tests, are considerably inconvenienced. It is considered, therefore, that each

applicant for a licence or endorsement should be charged an appointment fee of a prescribed amount not exceeding $2.

Clause 4 relates to applicants who desire to be tested for a driving instructor's licence. These tests occupy approximately one hour of a tester's time and the Government is of the opinion that a fee should be paid for the test. Clause 4 inserts a new sub-section (5A) into section 24A which requires payment by the applicant for a driving instructor's licence of $2 for each appointment, $5 for the initial test and $10 for any re-test if the applicant fails the initial test.

In regard to the display of "P" plates, the Motor Car Act provides that a driver of a motor car who is the holder of a probationary licence shall display " P " plates on his car for the first twelve months of the currency of his licence, and restrict his speed to 50 miles per hour during that period. There is n'O prohibition in the Act on a person who is nO't a first year probationary driver from displaying a " P " plate.

Members of the Police Force frequently engage in a hazardous pursuit at high speed in the belief that a motor car bearing" P " plates is being driven by a probationary driver who is restricted to a speed of not more than 50 miles per hour. When the car is stopped it is often disclosed that the driver is not a person subject to a restricted speed. To avoid members taking these unnecessary risks, it is proposed to amend the section to make it an offence for any person to drive a motor car with a " P " plate displayed if that person is not a driver required by the Act to display such a plate. The maximum penalty for the offence will be $50.

Finally, I refer to an amendment contained in clause 6 of the Bill which is consequential on amendments made in 1965, when s'ection 319 of the Crimes Act became section 80B of the Motor Car Act, making it an offence for any person to drive a motor car while under the influence


of intoxicating liquor or of any drug. Clause 6 effects the amendment to sub-section (2) of section 59 of the Motor Car Act by substi'tuting a new paragraph (b) which refers to subsection (1) of section 80B in the place of secti'On 319 of the Crimes Act 1958. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I move-

That the debate be now adjourned. I suggest that the debate on this brutally punitive piece of proposed legislation should be adjourned for three weeks.

The motion for the adjournment of the debate was agreed to.

IVIr. REID (Chief Secretary).-I move-

That the debate be adjourned until Wednesday. March 31.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-If passed by Parliament, this Bill will effect changes to several Acts and will impose restrictions that never before have been imposed on motor car drivers. It wiU allow the Government to excuse itself for not being able to recruit more policemen. Because of what is contained in the measure, the Opposition desires an additional week to enable it to discuss the Bill fully, not only with the people who will be affected by it, but also with the legal profession. I do not rely on those members of the legal profession who advise the Government, nor do other members of the Opposition. Honorable members are entitled to obtain expert legal advice on this measure and can do so only if the debate is adjourned for three weeks. Two weeks are insufficient for honorable members to carry out necessary deliberations and make a thorough examination of this important measure.

Mr. DIXON (St. Kilda).-As a member of the Road Safety Committee of this Parliament, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition has spent many years studying much of the material embodied in this measure. His party has also spent much time in discussing the ramifications of Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston's report on the Police Force. It will be obvious to

honorable members that this is a delaying tactic by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, who should be in a position to fully consider the contents of the Bill and the Minister's second-reading speech within the period of two weeks proposed by the Minister.

Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-It is obvi'Ous that many people will be affected by this proposed legislation, regardless of whether they have read the reports of the Road Safety Committee and Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston, or any other report. S'O that people, particularly those residing in remote areas, may be consulted I also request the Chief Secretary to consider extending the period for the adjournment of the debate on this imp'Ortant measure.

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).The debate on this Bill should proceed as soon as possible. I make it clear that my motion that the debate be adjourned for two weeks is subject to the undertaking customarily given that if the Leaders of the other parties desire further time to c'Onsider the measure it will be granted, but I am not prepared to agree to an adjournment of three weeks.

The motion was agreed to, and the debate was adjourned until Wednesday, March 31.

SCAFFOLDING BILL. Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of

Labour and Industry).-I move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

The purpose of the Bill is t'O repeal Part XLIII. of the Local Government Act 1958-the Part dealing with scaffolding safety-and to replace it with the Scaffolding Act 1971. In the result, the present system of scaffolding inspection will not be changed greatly. Over most 'Of the State, scaffolding inspection will continue to be carried out by municipal councils, subject to central Government supervision. However, under the provisions of the Bill that supervision will be carried out by the Department of Labour and Industry instead

Scaffolding [17 MARCH, 1971.] Bill. 4119

of the Local Government Department, and inspection in the "highrise" inner city area will now be the responsibility of the Department of Labour and Industry.

For several years this course of action has been urged upon the Government by certain members of the Opposition and by organizations which they represent, namely, the building trade unions and the Victorian Trades Hall Council. However, the Government resolved to have the matter thoroughly examined before deciding on any course of action that would change the status quo. Accordingly, a Government committee comprising members specially interested in industrial and labour affairs - including members of another place-was appointed to study the matter and report to the Government. The committee made a thorough examination of the administration of scaffolding safety laws, not only in Victoria but also in all other States of the Commonwealth, as a result of which it recommended to the Government that the Department of Labour and Industry should be made the administrative authority within Victoria.

Several facts were brought to the attention of the Government in connection with this matter. Firstly, the Department of Labour and Industry is the department of central Government in which is vested the general responsibility for promotion and enforcement of industrial safety; section 10 of the Labour and Industry Act makes this clear.

The Industrial Safety Advisory Council is established within the Department of Labour and Industry, which also provides the secretariat for the triennial industrial safety convention. A few years ago the administration of the Boilers Insp'ection Act was transferred from the Department of Mines to the Department of Labour and Industry. It has long since been agreed between the Department of

Labour and Industry and the Department of Agriculture that the former shaH be responsible for rural safety services and sO' on.

Secondly, within the departmental framework there already exist various laws governing aspects of safety in the building industry-the provisions of the Lifts and Cranes Act as they apply to the use of cranes and hoists on building j'Obs and the installation of lifts in buildings, and provisions under the Labour and Industry Act which govern the use of explosivepowered tools, require the wearing of safety helmets, the provision of first-aid kits and 'Ot!her ma'tJters. The addition of scaffolding requirements to this list appears desirable, so as to produce a complete as possible code of industrial safety in the building industry. It is in1tended to consider the establishm'ent of a building construction safety inspectorate within the depa.,tment, as recommended by the Parliamentary partty committee, and as exists in the New South Wa'les Department of Labour and Industry.

This brings me to the third p'Oint: in aH other Australian States the administration 'Of scaffolding safety law is the responsib'ility of the Department of Labour. Standardization of scaffolding laws is 'One of the matters of discussion at the regular interstate c'Onferences of Departments of Labour, and it is desirable that a Viotorian point 'Of view should be put f'Orward on thes'e occasions.

Under !the provisions of the Bill, the Minister of Labour and Industry win aSSUffi'e responsibility for the general administration of the Act as 5'oon as it is brought into 'Operation by pradamamion. At the same time, the Department 'Of Lahour and Industry will assum'e responsibility for inspecting scaffolding in t:he municipal districts mentioned' in the schedule. However, provision is made for continuation of the practice 'Of issuing the scaffolding permit at municipal offices in those districts.

4120 Scaffolding LASSEMBLY.] Bill.

The Bill a'lso permits extension of departmental inspection services beyond the municipal districts mentioned in the schedule, but only with reference to scaffolding more than 30 feet in 'height. This system, however, would be introduced to a municipal district only by order of the Governor in C'Ouncil. Apart from the matters to which I have referred, and the necessary transitional arrangements, the substance of the Bill is very similar to that of Part XLIII. 'Of the Local Government Act, which it replaces.

I shall now explain the clauses of the Bill. As is usual, clause 1 provides that the Act is to come into opera tion on a day to be fixed by proclamation of the Governor in Council, while clause 2 makes the necessary repeals of the appropriate provisions of the Local Government Act.

Clause 3 is the interpretation clause. The definiti'Ons of "scaffolding" are not changed, but it wi'll be seen that the definitions of "inspector" and "proper officer" will permit a dual system-in some districts they will be municipal officers, while in others they wiH be departmental officers. Sub-clause (4) of c1ause 3 contains the provisions for 'extension of departmental inspection outside the municipal districts mentioned in the schedule, and clause 4 binds the Crown, as the present legislation does.

Clause 5 provides for the appointment of departmental staff for the administration of the Act. It is intended that the Supervisor of Scaffolding Inspection under the Local Government Act will become the Supervisor of Scaffolding Inspection under this Act, and that other officers of the Local Government Department engaged in the administration of Part XLIII. of the Local Government Act will also be transferred to the Department of Labour and Industry. In addition, departmental inspectors are to be appOinted for inspection work in the municipal districts mentioned in the schedule. Sub-clause (2) permits the Minister to vest the powers

Mr. Rafferty.

of a scaffolding inspector in another departmental officer-for example, an inspector of lifts and cranes with adequate knowledge of scaffolding requirements-and clauses 6, 7 and 8 contain the usual provisions needed to facilitate inspections.

Clause 9 enunciates the principle that, where the interests of safety require it, the contractor shall erect scaffolding and see that it is used. At present, this provision is contained in the scaffolding regulations, but it is considered that it is a fundamental provision, and therefore should be in the Act.

Clause 10 contains the arrangements for issuing permits to erect scaffolding. The clause provides for three different procedures: Firstly, permits may be issued by a departmental officer, in which case the fees are collected by the department for payment into the Consolidated Revenue Fund; secondly, permits may be issued by a municipal officer in a municipal district that retains the scaffolding inspection function, and in that case the fees are retained by the council, and thirdly, permits may be issued by a municipal officer acting as agent for the department, in which case the fees are to be apportioned between the council and the Consolidated Revenue Fund.

Clause 11 makes it an offence to erect or use sub-standard scaffolding, clause 12 empowers inspectors to give directions in relation to such scaffolding, including the power to require that it not be used. Clause 13 provides for the hearing of appeals against inspectors' orders, as also does the existing legislation.

Clauses 14 and 15 provide for the appointment of a board of examiners, on similar lines to the "Municipal Scaffolding Inspectors Board" established under the present Act, for the examination and certification of scaffolders and scaffolding inspectors. Clause 16 makes it an offence for an uncertificated scaffolder to erect scaffolding of certain kinds, and clause 17 contains the regulationmaking powers. These are similar to

County Court [17 MARCH, 1971.] (Jurisdiction) Bill. 4121

those contained in the Local Government Act, with such additions as are necessary for the implementation of the new arrangements. Clause 18 retains the Scaffolding Regulations Committee as a representative body available to advise the Minister about scaffolding regulations. Some slight changes are proposed in the constitution of the committee, but otherwise it is to remain intact. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, March 31.

COUNTY COURT (JURISDICTION) BILL.

Mr. REID (Attorney-General) .J move-

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Its purpose is to amend the County Court Act 1958 in relation to the criminal jurisdiction of the County Court and to contempt of the court.

Clause 1 contains the usual short title and citation provisions. Clause 2 amends section 36A of the principal Act, which was enacted in 1968 when the jurisdiction of Courts of General Sessions was vested in the County Court. I refer honorable members to section 7 of the County Court (Jurisdiction) Act 1968. The section confers upon the County Court its jurisdiction to try all indictable offences, other than those expressly excepted by the section. One of the exceptions is that set out in paragraph (d) of sub-section (1), namely-

Offences against the Queen's title prerogative person or government or against either House of Parliament.

Doubts have been expressed concern· ing the jurisdiction of the County Court to try persons charged with offering bribes to members of the Police Force or public servants because of the language of the paragraph which I have quoted. As a resuJt, some such cases have had to

be removed into the Supreme Court, although they are not generally cases which warrant the attention of that court. Furthermore, their removal often has the effect of delaying a hearing for some months.

It appears desirable to make it clear that the County Court has jurisdiction in the type of case to which J have referred. Therefore, it is proposed to repeal paragraph (d) of subsection (1) of section 36A. If cases of this type arise which are of such importance that they warrant hearing by the Supreme Court, it is open to the Crown to remove them to that court.

Clause 3 proposes the substitution for section 54 of the principal Act of two new sections, namely, 54 and 54A. The present section 54 deals with contempt of court, and the proposed amendments have been recommended by the judges of the County Court, who consider that the existing provisions are inadequate to deal with interference with the administration of justice in the courts and in the precincts of the courts.

The proposed new section 54 reenacts the existing provisions of section 54, omitting paragraphs (a), (b) and (f) of sub-section (1) . The omitted paragraphs are included amongst the provisions of the proposed new section 54A. In the result, the new section 54 will cover refusals to appear in answer to a summons or to produce documents, refusals to be sworn or to answer lawful questions and wilful prevarication. The provision for a judge to deal with contempt of this kind and the other provisions contained in the new section 54 are identical with the existing corresponding provisions, other than the maximum fine referred to therein. The Bin increases to $100 the existing fine of $40, which was fixed in 1952 by Act No. 5627.

The proposed section 54A relates to other forms of contempt. Paragraph (a) of sub-section (1) deals with insults, threats, interference or

4122 Country Roads [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

obstruction in relation to a judge, juror, or court official. Its terms are similar to those of the present paragraph (a) of sub-section (1) of section 54, which has been extended by the inclusion of the expression "threatens interferes with or obstructs ".

Paragraph (b) is a new provision in relation to wrongfully influencing or attempts to influence any judge, juror, court official or witness or any person concerned with proceedings of the court. Paragraphs (c) and (d), which deal with wilful interruption of proceedings or misbehaviour, reenact the provisions of paragraphs (b) and (1) of the present sub-section (1) of section 54.

The remaining provisions of the proposed section 54A are generally similar to the existing provisions, but the penalties providednamely, a maximum of six months' imprisonment or a fine not exceeding $500-have been increased as the existing penalties are considered inadequate for the type of conduct referred to in the new provision.

Clauses 4 and 5 contain amendments consequential upon those proposed in clauses 2 and 3. Clause 4 amends the Third Schedule to the Act in light of the amendments contained in clause 3 of the Bill. Clause 5 inserts a new Fourth Schedule, prescribing the form of order which may be made under the proposed section 54A. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West), the debate was adjourned.


COUNTRY ROADS (AMENDMENT) BILL.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-1 move-


It makes a number of unrelated amendments to the Country Roads Act concerning-

1. The appointment of officers and employees.

2. The lighting of State highways.

3. The proclamation of forest roads.

4. The carrying out of work for other authorities and the hire of the board's plant.

5. The transfer of houses from one place to another in full or part settlement of land compensation.

6. Evidence that a road has been declared or proclaimed under the provisions of the Country Roads Act.

In regard to the appointment of officers and employees, at present the board may appoint all employees required for works of construction or maintenance without the approval of the Governor in Council. Where the board desires to appoint employees for purposes other than construction and maintenance work, the approval of the Governor in Council is required. The appointment of officers to the board's staff also requires the approval of the Governor in Council.

The board has been appointing workshop and depot employees, cafeteria attendants, casual stenographers and casual typists without obtaining the approval of the Governor in Council. These personnel were regarded as being required indirectly for " works of construction or maintenance". However, following an audit query, the Crown Solicitor advised the board that it had power in its own right to appoint only those employees directly engaged in works of construction and maintenance and not those engaged in ancillary occupations.

In addition, the board has been experiencing some difficulty with the commencement dates of new officers appointed to the salaried staff. The board is required to obtain the approval of the Governor in Council

County Roads [17 MARCH, 1971.] (Amendment) Bill. 4123

before a newly appointed officer is permitted to commence duty with the board.

The advice of counsel was therefore sought on the most appropriate amendment to the Country Roads Act to provide a solution to the whole matter. The amendment is based on the advice of counsel and will enable the board in its own right to appoint all officers and employees provided that the approval of the Minister is obtained where the salary of an officer or employee exceeds the rate of $8,500 per annum. This will eliminate the board's present difficulties and will bring its powers of appointment generally into line with those of other instrumentalities.

Under existing legislation, the Country Roads Board is empowered to exp'end its funds on the lighting of freeways but is not empowered to exp'end its funds 'On the 'lighting of other roads decla'red or proC'laimed under the prOVisions of the Country Roads Act. The amendment wi'll enable the board to exp'end its funds on the costs of installation, operation and maintenance of street lighting on State 'highways. The amendment als'O makes provision for the app'Ointment of a Street Lighting Committee consisting of It]hree represen'tatives, one being nominated each by the Chairman of ·the Country Roads Board, the Chairman of the State Electricity Comm~ssion of Victoria, and the Municipal Associati'On of Victoria. The main functions of the committee are to determine a minimum standard of lighting for cost sharing as set out in the Bill and to examine and approve lighting instaUations which are lof a standard not lower than that determined by the committe·e.

The Bill also provides that subject to the lighting being 'Of a standard not lower than the standard determined by the Street Lighting Committee and being approved by that committee the costs in respect of (a) the operation and maintenance 'Of existing lighting installations on State highways; and (b) the instaUation, operati'On and

maintenance of new lighting installations or the improvement of existing installations on State highways, shall be shared in general 'On the basis of one-,third Country Roads Board, onethird State Eleotricity Commission and one-third the m·unicipal council concerned. Where a municipall c'Ouncil is an undertaker within the meaning of the Electric Light and Power Act 1958, that municipal council will bear two-thirds 'of trhe cost in respect of such lighting within its own municipality. Where a m'unicipal council is an undertaker and supplies power to an'Other municipal council the balance of two-Ithirds of the cost will be shared one-third by the undertaker and one-third by the municipal council which rec'eives the supply.

The Country Roads Board will be responsible-

(a) for initiating such action as the board considers necessary to have street lighting instaHed or improved to a standard not lower than the standard determined by the committee;

(b) for making all necessary arrangements with the State Electricity Commission or the undertaker concerning such installations or improvements; and

(c) for obtaining the approval of the Street Lighting Oommi ttee to lighting installations for cost sharing purposes.

Under existing legis'lation the recommendation of the Minister of Public Works is required before the Governor in C'Ouncil may prodaim a road to be a fiorest road under the terms of the Country Roads Act. Following the transfer lof the administration of the Country Roads Board from the Minister of Public Works to the Minister for Local Government, the recommendati'On 'Of the Minister of Public Works to the proclamation of forest roads is not considered ap.propriate. The amendment removes reference to the Minister of Public Works.

4124 Country Roads [ASSEMBL Y.] (Amendment) Bill.

Under secti'On 117 of the Country Roads A~t, with the consent 'Of the Governor in Council, and at the request of and at the expense of the Commonweallth 'Of Australia 'Or any department of the Commonwealth of Australia or the State 'Of Victoria or any municipality or 'other public authority, the Country R'Oads Board has carried 'Out works f'Or which the board is suitably equipped. From time to time, the board has also hired its plant to such authorities and contractors and has also carried out works on behalf 'Of landowners adjacent to the board's works where it has been in the public interest to do so.

The auditor queried the legality of the board's hiring its plant generally and carrying out works on behalf 'Of landowners adjacent to the board's works. A close examination of the Country Roads Act revealed that the board has authority to carry out specialist work for Government authorities, municipalities and public authorities but was not empowered-

(a) to carry out work adjacent to roads under the board's control for and at the expense of adjoining landowners;

(b) to hire out its plant to the Commonwealth of Australia and the State of Victoria, public authorities, municipal councils and contractors carrying out works for such organizations; or

(c) to hire to any person items of specialized plant which are not available for hire privately and the work to be carried out is in the public interest.

The amendment gives the board the necessary authority to carry out works up to an estimated cost of $20,000 on behalf of the Commonwealth of Australia, the State of Victoria, municipalities, public authorities and persons owning land adjoining works of the board, without the approval of the Governor in Council. Works estimated to cost in excess of $20,000 will require the approval of the Governor in Council.

Mr. Wilcox.

The amendment also gives the board power to hire out its plant to such organizations, their contractors and also to any person where the work involved is in the public interest and the plant is not otherwise available for hire.

The Country Roads Board is required to purchase many house properties to provide the necessary right-of-way for new roads or deviations from or widening of existing roads. Some of the houses purchased are old and dilapidated and the market value is small. The amount of compensation the board is able to pay is therefore small. This situation presents difficulties to the owners, especially elderly people, in financing the purchase of reasonable replacement properties. The difficulty could often be overcome if the board had the power to settle compensation in full or in part by transferring an existing house to a location satisfactory to the owner. Unfortunately, the board has been advised by the Crown Solicitor that it does not have power at present to shift existing houses to other sites as a means of settling compensation. The lack of such power very often protracts the settlement of compensation with the owners concerned and does not permit the most satisfactory settlement.

The amendment will enable the board, with the agreement of the owner and in full or part settlement of land compensation, to-

(a) transfer an owner's house from its present site to other land held by the owner or land owned by the board;

(b) transfer a house which is owned by the board and is surplus to the board's requirements from its present site to land held by the owner or to land owned by the board.

Section 125 of the Country Roads Act provides that any map sealed with the seal of the board shall within twelve months after the seal was affixed thereto be prima facie evidence in any proceedings in any court

Litter (Proceedings [17 MARCH, 1971.] for Offences) Bill. 4125

of justice or before any persons acting judicially that any road shown thereon as a main road, State highway, developmental road, tourists' road, forest road or freeway is such a road.

At present the board's officers, who are appOinted under section 90 of the Motor Car Act to prosecute for any breach or contravention of Division 2 of Part IV. of the Motor Car Act, are issued with a map of the State, in four separate sections, each sealed with the common seal of the board. These maps must be sealed every twelve months to make them effective. The number of the board's maps now required and the need for them to be sealed by the board every twelve months is cumbersome and time absorbing.

The amendment provides that a statement by any officer of the Country Roads Board that any road is a State highway, main road, tourists' road, forest road, developmental road or freeway shall be sufficient evidence of such fact until the contrary is shown.

These are a series of amendments submitted with a view to improving the functioning of the Country Roads Board. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. FELL (Greensborough), the debate was adjourned.


LITTER (PROCEEDINGS FOR OFFENCES) BILL.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-1 move-


It proposes to amend the Litter Act 1964 by providing two new procedures for dealing with certain offences under that Act. The first set of amendments creates an offence which may be dealt with by what is generally known as an on-the-spot fine.

This is the procedure provided in the Road Traffic Act for dealing with traffic infringements and parking infringements. The provisions of that Act have been adapted to deal with offences under the Litter Act by the service of litter infringement notices. This amending legislation will have application only in those municipal districts or parts of districts to which it is extended by proclamation of the Governor in Council at the request of the council concerned. Litter infringement notices will be served only by authorized municipal officers and not by members of the Police Force. The present offence of throwing down or dropping litter on a highway for which a traffic infringement notice may be served will not be affected. The penalty for that offence is $10 but in the case of litter infringement it is proposed that the penalty shall be $5.

The second amendment will permit offences against section 3 of the Litter Act to be dealt with by the alternative procedure provided in the Justices Act. An information for any such offence may be served on the defendant personally or by post and he may, if he wishes, elect to appear in court. If he does not do so, a magistrate in chambers may deal with the matter and impose a penalty. In certain circumstances a court may impose a term of imprisonment not exceeding one month for an offence against section 3 of the Litter Act. However, sub-section (9) of section 94A of the Justices Act provides that where a magistrate in chambers acting under the alternative procedure finds it appropriate to consider the imposition of a term of imprisonment, he shall adjourn the information to be heard in open court and notice in writing of the adjournment must be given to the informant and the defendant.

Clause 2 of the Bill describes the on-the-spot procedure. A litter infringement notice may be served by an authorized municipal officer on any person who throws down or drops litter in or on a public place. The notice may be served on the alleged

4126 Litter (Proceedings (ASSEMBLY. ] for Offences) Bill.

offender personally or by post. The information which it must set out includes-

(a) the day, time and place of the alleged infringement;

(b) the penalty;

(c) the place or places at which the penalty may be paid;

(d) the date of the notice and a statement that the penalty may be paid within a period of 28 days after that date; and

(e) a summary of the provisions of the Act relating to the withdrawal of litter infringement notices.

If the penalty is paid within 28 days the matter is regarded as closed and no conviction is recorded against the offender. If the penalty is not paid within the prescribed time the offender may be prosecuted by the alternative procedure or other means. However, if an infringement notice has been served and not withdrawn any conviction is deemed not to be a conviction for any purpose except the particular offence.

The various procedures that Parliament adopts these days make the introduction of some of these measures a little complicated. Honorable members will need to look carefully at the Bill to understand it. I sympathize with them. For many years I have had experience in examining legislation, and some of the new procedures necessary to save the time of the police are not easy to follow.

A litter infringement notice can be withdrawn at any time within 28 days after service. If the penalty has been paid before withdrawal the amount must be refunded.

Clause 3 amends the Justices Act 1958 to permit offences against section 3 of the Litter Act to be dealt with by the alternative procedure. I replied to a question earlier today relating to litter and, unfortunately, to the dirty state of railway carriages from time to time. Litter seems to

Mr. Wilcox.

be a problem in the community. It would be good if the community could, of its own accord, take steps to improve its litter consciousness so that many of these provisions would not need to be invoked. Undoubtedly some thinking members of the community believe something should be done about the problem, and that is why provisions are being introduced to tighten control over the depositing of litter.

When this Bill was before another place, the Minister for Local Government promised to examine the principal Act with a view to the Government's considering the creation of an offence of giving a false name and address. The matter is now under consideration, and I shall be in a position to comment on it later in the debate. It is unfortunate that legislation of this nature should have to be enacted to make people conduct themselves better. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. KIRKWOOD (Preston), the debate was adjourned.


CHURCHILL WATER AND SEWERAGE WORKS BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 3) on the motion of Mr. Dunstan (Minister of Water Supply) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. AMOS (Morwell).-The purpose of the Bill is to validate agreements already made between various undertakings in the Latrobe Valley to transfer assets and liabilities between the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board and the Morwell Waterworks Trust. The Labor Party, therefore, does not intend to oppose the measure.

In 1964, the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board was requested to act as the constructing authority for the installation of water and sewerage facilities in the township of

Churchill Water and [17 MARCH, 1971.] Sewerage Works Bill. 4127

Churchill. It was envisaged that the construction programme would take about a year, by which time it was expected that the works would be taken over by a water and sewerage authority constituted under the appropriate legislation. It was later decided that the changeover should take place when the population of Churchill reached 2,500. In 1969 it was considered that within a few months the population of Churchill would reach tha t target and it was decided that the local authorities should assume control ':is from that later date. The Morwell Shire Council, which was the responsible local authority in the area, recommended to the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission that the future administration of the water and sewerage services for Churchill should be under the control of the Morwell Waterworks Trust and subseouently that trust was given the task of administering these services.

However, it must be remembered that it was envisaged that the water and sewerage facilities installed at Churchill would cater for a much larger population than that now residing at Churchill-probably eight times the number. Because of the high capital cost involved it was decided that any waterworks trust or administering authority could not impose the total capital cost and 1iabilitie~ on the ratepayers of the area. Therefore, the Government has undertaken to take over part of the deferred liability. The present rating for the people of Churchill for water and sewerage is based upon a population of 2,500, but the figure adopted was based upon an estimate of what the population of Churchill would have been by the end of 1970. In order to work out the actual costing for the rating of the residents of Churchill it was necessary to use a basic population of 5,000.

Because of the high capital cost of the installation of new water and sewerage facilities in Churchill, the minimum water and sewerage rate combined is approximately $53,

whereas in the neighbouring township of Morwell-the area where the municipality is concentrated-the minimum water and sewerage rate combined is $22. I direct attention to this point not to criticize the activities of the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission or those of the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board but to indicate to honorable members the disadvantage to people who live in new regional areas where water and sewerage schemes are installed. Because of the high capital cost, they have to pay higher rates than residents of other municipalities.

When this Bill becomes an Act it will validate agreements already made and for that reason and because the people living in Churchill are using the ,va ter and sewerage facilities, the OppOSition has no objection to the measure.


The Bill was read a second time and committed.

The clauses were agreed to.

Preamble.

Mr. AMOS (Morwell).-Paragraph (b) of the preamble provides-

By Order of the same day, the Governor in Council proclaimed certain lands at Churchill a sewerage district, constituted a sewerage authority under the name of the Churchill Sewerage Authority in respect of the said sewerage district, directed that the commissioners for the time being of the Morwell Waterworks Trust should be the members of the said sewerage authority, and approved of a proposal to provide sewerage facilities for the said sewerage district by means of certain sewerage works then existing.

Under the provisions of the Bill the commissioners of the Morwell Waterworks Trust, who are also the Commissioners of the Churchill Sewerage Authority, will administer the sewerage district of Churchill. It is the wish of the Morwell Waterworks Trust and als'O the wish of the residents of Churchill that amending legislation be introduced to enable

4128 Geelong Land [ASSEMBLY.] (Special Grant) Bill.

two Government appointees to become members of the Morwell Waterworks Trust. This would enable a resident of Churchill to be appointed as a commissioner of that trust. At present, because of sheer weight of numbers in the neighbouring Morwel1 municipality, the people of Morwell tend to elect one of their own residents to the trust. I should be grateful if the Minister could give an undertaking to introduce amending legislation along the lines I have suggested.

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply) .-Firstly, I commend the honorable member for Morwell on the manner in which he has handled this measure on behalf of the Opposition. The Government nominee on the Morwell Waterworks Trust and the Churchill Sewerage Authority is a Mr. Walsh, who lives at Yinnar, near Churchill. The honorable member for Morwell kindly forwarded to me copies of correspondence from the secretary of the Morwell Waterworks Trust and the Churchill Sewerage Authority in regard to the point he raised. It is not appropriate to include an amendment to the Water Act in this measure but, if it can be shown that the ratepayers of Churchill are discriminated against or are suffering because they have not direct representation, I give an undertaking that I will consider an amendment to the Water Act to provide for the appointment of two Government nominees.

The preamble was agreed to.

The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its re~aining stages.

GEELONG LAND (SPECIAL GRANT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 9) on the motion of Mr. Borthwick (Minister of Lands) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North). -At the outset, I thank the Minister and the Government for resuming the debate on this Bill at this stage. The

purpose of this simple measure is to assist the Shire of Barrabool to update its administration to meet modern requirements. It will enable the shire to purchase from the Crown the land on which its municipal offices are situated at the intersection of BalJiang and Moorabool streets, South Geelong.

In 1959, the Shire of Barrabool constructed modern offices on the site. As a result of progress in the municipality, it is now found that the existing facilities are inadequate to meet the requirements of the future. The valuation placed on the site and approved by the Valuer-General's Office is $23,000. No objection has been raised to this proposal in the Geelong district, and the council of the City of Geelong, in whose area this land is situated, is in accord with the provisions of the Bill.

The Shire of Barrabool is one of the most progressive shires in the State and has made tremendous progress in the past twenty years. Its revenue has trebled since the year 1960. In 1940 the shire office was situated in one room of a private building in the City of Geelong. By 1959, development was such that it occupied the land in question and constructed thereon its own offices. The shire has again outgrown its accommodation.

The reason for the growth of the Shire of Barrabool is that it embraces Lorne, Torquay and Anglesea, and residential areas on the outskirts of Geelong, such as Waurn Ponds and Ceres, where residential development has occurred in recent years. The future of the shire appears to be unlimited.

The Shire of Barrabool wishes to purchase this land because it desires to build a new civic centre and it cannot sell its existing office building without a title. The area concerned covers only 1 rood 2 perches, as set out in the schedule. The Geelong people are fully aware of

Evidence (Registration of [17 MARCH, 1971.] Commissioners) Bill. 4129

the proposal and agree with it, and therefore members of the Opposition wish the Bill a !speedy passage.

Mr. AUREL SMITH (Bellarine).This is a progressive and forwardlooking measure which will enable the Shire of Barrabool to purchase the freehold· to its existing office site in Moorabool Street, Geelong. I agree with the honorable member for Geelong North who stated that considerable development had occurred in the shire, particularly of late. This expansion has high-lighted the fact that the present office accommodation is not adequate to cope with the requirements of the municipality.

The purchase of this Crown land at a realistic price will enable the shire to plan for the future and provide for enlarged office accommodation on a new site, possibly within the shire. Having obtained the freehold to the existing site, the shire will be in a position to sell the site and the building at the appropriate time and to apply those funds towards the provision of a new office block. I thoroughly support the Bill.


The Bill was read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages.

The sitting was suspended at 6.22 p.m. until 8.3 p.m.

EVIDENCE (REGISTRATION OF 'COMMISSIONERS) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 9) on the motion of Mr. Reid (Attorney-General) for the sec-mid reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) . -This Bill, which is similar to a .measure previously before this Chamber, adopts iI) relation to commissioners for taking declarations ·and affidavits, the system of registration of justices of the peace. By persistently seeking the registration of justices of the peace, so that honorable, membe.rs would be aware of justices in their respective areas, the Opposition influenced the Government to bring down

Sesswn 1971.-149

an appropriate Bill, which was handled in 1965 by the present Minister of Transport. Justices of the peace perform an important public function, for which they are charged a registration fee.

I believe that there should also be a register of commissioners for taking declarations and affidavits. Apparently, no such register exists. In his second-reading speech, the Attorney-General stated-

The Law Department's records indicate that some 11,000 persons have been appointed as commissioners since 1930.

This information indicates that a prima facie case exists for the registration of commissioners on lines simi1ar to the registration of justices of the peace.

Honorable members are aware that when applications are considered for the appointment of justices of the peace the Attorney-General may suggest that, when sufficient justices are already in the area, it may well be that the applicant should accept a commi!ssionership, as commissioners can deal with the majority of matters attended to by justices out of court. During the administration of the present Attorney-General a substantial number of commissioners have been appointed.

I do not propose to traverse the Bill, but in substance it provides that the existing commissioners must make application for registration, but will not be 'charged a fee· for the initial . registration. The Bill further provides that members of Parliament will be commissioners in their own right and will not be 'required to pay t1:te prescril?ed fees. Prqposed new section 122A of the principal Act, as contained in clause 3, provides, inter alia-

( 1) Every member for the. time being of the Legislative Council and every member for the time being of the Legislative Assembly shall, by virtue of his office as such member and without any further or other authority than this section, be a commissioner ..

This is another fringe benefit which applies to. members of this Chamber and another place.

4130 Evidence (Registration of [ASSEMBLY.] Commissioners) Bill.

By the insertion of a new section 122c in the principal Act, clause 3 further provides-

(1) The fee to be paid upon the registration of a commissioner appointed after the commencement of the Evidence (Registration of Commissioners) Act 1971 shall be $5 and shall entitle the applicant to registration for a period of five years.

(2) The fee to be paid upon the renewal of the registration of a commissioner shall be such fee not exceeding $2 as is prescribed.

It is intended that for the time being a fee of $1 will be prescribed, but no doubt the Government will run true to form and soon increase this fee. Probably the commissioners will pay their subscriptions f.or a year or two and tr.en someone will point out that the s~heme is not paying its way and the fee will be increased to $2. It ha~ been asserted that the fee which is to be charged is for the purpose of meeting the cost of registering commissioners, but I remind the House that commissioners perform public functions for which they receive nothing. The fees to which they are entitled were fixed as far back as 1891, and they are so inadequate that most commissioners no longer ask for them; despite that, they have carried on nobly.

The Opposition does not object to the abolition of the payment of fees to commissioners, although members representing country areas may adopt a different view, but my party takes strong objection to proposed new sub-section 122c which provides that upon registration a commissioner shall pay a fee of $5 and that upon renewal of registration he shall pay a fee not exceeding $2.

The Attorney-General contends that fees are necessary to meet the cost of the large amount of work involved in effecting the registration of commissioners. The Opposition will oppose this Bill when it is being considered in Committee, but it wishes to make it clear that it supports the principles which are embodied in the measure. I do not know who suggested the imposition of fees

Mr. Turnbull.

upon registration, but I find it difficult to believe that it was the Attor-ney-General.

Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Leader of the Country Party) .-In principle, the members of the Country Party support this measure, but one wonders how necessary it is to have a register, because for many years people have been signing documents and having them witnessed by a commissioner for the taking of affidavits and declarations; for example, "J. Smith" could witness a document, but nobody would have any idea whether the witness were alive or dead-and it would be difficult to search through all appointments to ascertain who is a commissioner.

r think the provisions of clause 3 of this measure will bring about a ridiculous state of affairs, and for that reason the Country Party supports the argument which has been advanced by the Opposition. A person who is asked to perform a necessary public service should not be charged a fee of $5 for agreeing to do so.

In his second-reading speech, the Attorney-General stated that a justice of the peace had to pay a fee and that a commissioner for taking affidavits and declarations should do the same. I do not think a justice of the peace should be required to pay a fee, but upon appointment he at least becomes more highly regarded in the eyes of the community. The same cannot be said of a commissioner.

I think a comparison can be made with, say, a Government nominee on a hospital board, a sewerage authority or a waterworks trust. He is asked to look after the interests of the Government without charge and he agrees to do so; surely, no one would think of charging him a fee. I find the provision embarrassing, and I am sure that it must be embarrassing to many members on the Government side of the House who have been instrumental in helping in the appointment of a justice of the peace or a commissioner, because

Evidence (Registration of [17 MARCH, 1971.] Commissioners) Bill. 4131

one must tell him that he will receive an account from the Government as thanks for agreeing to perform certain functions. It is obvious that :i person who obtains a driving licence or one who registers the name of a company must pay -a fee to cover the cost involved, but I think it is ridiculous that a person who is prepared to assist the Government should be required to pay a fee to be registered. If the vote on this measure were a free one, I am sure that many members of the Liberal Party would oppose it. I earnestly request the Attorney-General to reconsider the question. As I have said, the Country Party will join with the Opposition in opposing the clause which provides for the payment of a fee.

Mrs. GOBLE (Mitcham).-Generally speaking, I approve of the provisions contained in this measure. I feel that it is necessary to have a register of commissioners for taking affidavits and declarations. I have been a commissioner for approximately fifteen years, and I know that in some areas it is often difficult for people to find someone to witness their signatures on documents; however, I agree with members of the Opposition and with the Leader of the Country Party who have stated that it is unnecessary to charge a fee for the registration of commissioners.

I also agree with the Leader of the Country Party that men and women who are appointed as justices of the peace have a degree of distinction conferred upon them, and that the same cannot be said of a commissioner. From personal experience I know that one has people knocking at one's door late at night to witness a signature. I have never objected to performing this service; in fact, it has been a pleasure. However, I feel that it is unreasonable to expect commissioners to pay for this privilege.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).-I have been a commissioner for taking declarations and affidavits for more

than fifteen years and under this Bill, whilst I remain a member of Parliament, I shall enjoy this distinction without being asked to pay a fee. I ask the Minister why there should be such discrimination between a person in my position and another who is appointed a commissioner.

If the Government considers that persons holding certain public offices are acceptable as commissioners without the payment of a fee, it should adopt the same attitude with the ordinary citizen who offers his services to the community in which he lives and is prepared to undertake this important function. As the Attorney-General will know, on many occasions people seek the services of a commissioner. As mentioned by the honorable member for Mitcham, people call at one's home late at night or during a week-end because it is necessary to have a document witnessed immediately.

It is paltry for the Government to demand payment of a fee. Surely the Government, which is able to meet the cost of compiling and maintaining a register of commissioners more easily than the ordinary commissioner, should be prepared to do so as part of its service to the community. A vital principle is involved and, as some honorable members of his own party are concerned over this, I appeal to the Minister to reconsider the matter and agree to omit this provision from the Bill.



Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to.

Clause 3 (Amendment of Act No. 6246, section 122).

Mr. REID (Attorney-General) .The honorable member for Brunswick West, the Leader of the Country Party, and the honorable member for Mitcham have all questioned the desirability of charging a fee for registration of a person as a commissioner for taking declarations and

4132 Snowy Mountains Engineering (ASSEMBLY.] Corporation (Victoria) Bill.

affidavits. This matter was carefully considered and it was felt not unreasonable that a registration. fee should be paid to help defray. the costs of administration. The Law Department receives innumerable applications from people wishing to be commissioners, and these are often sponsored by commercial organizations which want the convenience of having a commissioner on their premises to sign documents. Accordingly, I do not think it is unreasonable that a fee of this sort should be charged.

The honorable member for Broadmeadows has suggested that discrimination is shown between members of Parliament who become commissioners ex officio-I believe it would be an advantage to members of Parliament to hold such a commission -and the ordinary person who becomes a registered commissioner and who might have to pay a fee. I do not think there is any unfair discrimination in this regard because any member who is a justice of the peace by virtue of being an Executive councillor-there are many members of the House who are in this position-does not have to pay a registration fee. Accordingly, I do not think the argument is valid.

However, I will examine the -matter further, and for this purpose I suggest that progress should· be reported.

Progress was reported.

SNOWY MOUNTAINS ENGINEERING CORPORATION·

(VICTO~A) BILL. The debate (adjourned from March

10) on the motion of Mr. Dunstan (Minister of Water Supply) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed ..

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine).The Opposition does not oppose this Bill, which is a small measure validating Commonwealth legislation passed last June. I take it, Mr. Deputy Speaker, ·that so long as I relate my

remarks to the Bill I may briefly refer to the Commonwealth legislation which it validates.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Sir ·Edgar Tanner).-The honorable member may do that.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I find that necessary because, when the measure which became the Commonwealth Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation Act was before the House of Representatives, the Labor Party opposed it. The Standing Orders prevent me from advancing all the reasons why the Federal Opposition took that course, but I refer honorable members who desire to acquaint themselves with those reasons to Commonwealth Hansard for the House of Representatives, of 9th June, 1970, at page 3169, where the speech made by Mr. Stewart, the honorable member for Lang, is reported.

The Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority, the Commonwealth authority responsible for the Snowy Mountains scheme, resulted from discussions dating from the turn of the century. However, it was not until immediately prior to the second world war, when New South Wales had suffered the ravages of a severe drought; that sufficient unanimity was obtained between the various States, notably New South Wales and Victoria, and the Commonwealth to enable action to be taken to harness .the water resources of the Snowy .Mountains. The authority was given its formal birth in 1949 by the then Prime Minister, the late Mr. Chifley. Much work had been done before then, and the history of the great engineering achievements of the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority is well known to honorable members.

The Federal Parliamentary Labor Party opposed the Commonwealth legislation referred to in this Bill because it took the view that the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority. should have been maintained in its entirety to form

Snowy Mountains Engineering [17 MARes, 1971.1 Corporation (Victoria) Bill. 4133

a water conservation authority which would tackle the problems of water conservation on a national basis. Although certain constitutional difficulties stood in the way of the Commonwealth's setting up such a national authority, it would have been possible if the Government obtained the consent of the States. The Federal Opposition believed that the Commonwealth Government's measure wrongly emasculated the authority and replaced it by an organization of inferior capacity to carry out work which the Labor Party felt was a national task.

However, what has been done cannot be undone and the best course for this State to follow is to take advantage of the unique engineering knoW-how which resides in the corporation, the remnant of the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority, so that badly needed works can be carried out in Victoria. Questions for the following day's Notice Paper for this House are not accepted after 6 p.m. and when this Bill was introduced la-st Wednesdav it was too late for me to have a question placed on the Notice Paper asking the Minister of Water Supply ,to state what works were 'envisaged within the terms of this measure. However, the MinIster has been courteous enough to send me a letter telling me what works it is envisaged may be carried out in Victoria with the assistance of the corporation. The honorable gentleman's 'letter, dated 12th March, states-

Further to our conversation at Parliament House this week, I am able to advise you that the Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation has been commissioned by the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works to do the design work for the Cardinia storage.

The corporation has done preliminary investigation for the Dartmouth storage.

Other large scale civil engineering work which the corporation could conceivably be commissioned for: Hydro-development for the State Electricity Commission; the underground rail loop; complete design plans for Dartmouth.

I thank the Minister for h~s courtesy in making the information available to me and to the Parliament.

One of the outstanding features of the Bill is contained in clause 4, which refers to ,functions and powers of 'the corporation. The clause validates, by authorization of th.e Victorian Parliament, the exercIse by the corporati'On of a Commonwealth power set out in section 17 of the Commonwealth Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation Act,. whi~h could not otherwise be used ln VICtoria. A'lthough, by passing this Bill, the Victorian Parliam'ent will validate those functions and powers, the decision whether the c'Orporation will do any work in Victoria will rest w~th the appropriate Commonwealth MInister. Section 17 'of the Commonwea'lth A'cit is descriptive 'Of the functions 'Of the corporation. Subsection (3) of tthi's section states-

The Corporation shan not, in t.he exercise of its functions under sub-sectIon (1) of this section, undertake-

(a) the carrying out of an investigation; (b) the furnishing of any advice; (c) the designing of an engineering work; (d) the supervision of a contract; or (e) the construction of, or the perform

ance of any work in rel~tion. to the construction of, an engmeermg work,

except with the app~oval of the .lY.linister and in accordance WIth any condItIons to which the approval is expressed to be subject.

I direct attention to the fact that nothing can be done in any State except with the consent of the Commonwealth Minister who, I assume in this case, would be the Minister for the Interior, or whiGhever Minister is responsible for the Department of the Interior Construction Branch. Although a different view is taken in the Commonwealth Parliament by some of the critics of this legislation, my experience leads me to the conclusion that, by and large, it is good that authorities of this description should be subject to Ministerial control. Whilst I share the reservations expressed by members

4134 Snowy Mountains Engineering- (ASSEMBLY. J Corporation (Victoria) Bill.

of the Opposition in the Commonwealth Parliament about the demerits of the legislation, I also hold the view that rigid Ministerial control should be exercised over the construction authority.

I was fortunate during the war in having an experience with a large construction authority, and I saw much of its activities all over the continent. While in war time one cannot expect the imposition of effective controls that could be expected in peace time, my experience confirmed the belief that if operations are to be carried out with the greatest economy and efficiency for the taxpayers, rigid Ministerial control, particularly over construction activities, is necessary. I hope that this type of Ministerial control proposed to be exercised in Canberra will be matched in Victoria in relation to construction activities as well as financial activities associated with whatever works are to be undertaken.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).Members of the Country Party do not oppose this Bill but they wish to express sundry reservations and doubts about it. Whatever propagandists in Australia might say, the Snowy Mountains hydro-electric scheme was a wicked waste of public funds and Sir William Hudson should be damned for squandering much of the taxpayers' money that could have been spent on something more useful than his personal aggrandisement. The Snowy Mountains scheme was a poor attempt to keep up with the Joneses. Works just as good could have been carried on for less money. The Snowy Mountains Authority was illegally created by Prime Minister Chifley. Some people thought him a great man but others did not. Although that great Liberal, Sir Robert Menzies, told Mr. Chifley that the scheme was illegal, the moment he became Prime Minister it suddenly became legal.

Traditionally the Country Party has exposed historical inaccuracies and the duping of the public. It has always been careful of the interests

of the public and it looks at matters such as this very carefully. Sir William Hudson did everything possible to keep his job going; he tried to keep the Snowy Mountains Authority in existence. Members of the Opposition have said that this was not possible, and a modified organization, the Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation, was formed to carry on to a minor degree the type of work done by the Snowy Mountains Authority with a team of people that had been kept together throughout the years. This body could operate legally in any area of Australia only under appropriate legisla tion.

The purpose of this Bill is to give to the Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation authority to function in Victoria. On the face of it, the proposal looks extremely good but certain words contained in the Bill make one wonder whether we are going to get another " great old man of the sea "-as was the case with the original Snowy Mountains Authority -sitting on the shoulders of Victoria's progress. Honorable members are aware that wide powers will be given to the corporation, such as the authority to acquire land, and so on. Members of the Country Party are concerned to know, as they were in the case of the Land Conservation Council, where all of this starts and finishes, how it conflicts with local government, and whether it will override local government rule. The honorable member for Sunshine made the point that this is safeguarded by Ministerial control. I cannot see that any control exists from the Victorian point of view.

The honorable member for Sunshine read a letter stating that the Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation has been commissioned by the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works to do the design work for the Cardinia storage, that it has done preliminary investigation for the Dartmouth storage, and that it could conceivably be commissioned for hydro-development for the State

Snowy Mountains Engineering' [17 MARCH, 1971.] Corporation (Victoria) Bill. 4135

Electricity Commission, and for the Melbourne underground railway. It is the old, old story-everything for Melbourne and hang the country. What is the situation in relation to the Dartmouth dam, in view of the action taken by South Australia? Where is the money that the Premier set aside for this project? The Premier would not answer my recent question on that subject. I asked him what he had done with the money, but the honorable gentleman, with gorgeous, statesman-like nonchalance, side-stepped the question in masterly fashion.

From what I can see of the corporation, it is a snide effort to extend the grip of the Commonwealth on the State of Victoria and bring the boundary of the Federal Capital Territory over the Murray and near to Melbourne. Apart from those reservations, if members of the Country Party can get an assurance from the Government that it is not going to allow the "old man of the sea" approach in Victoria, they will support the Bill.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time

and committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 (Interpretation). Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water

Supply) .-1 commend the honorable member for Sunshine and the honorable member for Benambra for their excellent contributions to the debate. I assure the honorable member for Benambra that the corporation will not carry out work in Victoria for Government departments or instrumentalities except at the invitation of the Minister or the department. The corporation will also have the right to undertake work for private agencies. The Bill empowers the corporation to perform any of its functions in pursuance of an authority conferred by State law.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine).In view of the remarks made by the honorable member for Benambra it

is only fair to Sir William Hudson to point out that on 14th February, 1949, a conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers and officers adopted a scheme, which emanated from the earlier proposals and draft recommendations made by a technical committee, for the diversion of two-thirds of the flow of the Snowy River at Jindabyne by way of the Tumut River. What was done at that time and what eventuated later was not a result of the actions of Sir William Hudson; it was by agreement between the Commonwealth and State Ministers.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).I thank the Minister of Water Supply not only for his eulogy but also for his explanations, even though he gave only partial explanations. I understood the honorable gentleman to say that no work would be undertaken in Victoria by the corporation without the consent of the Victorian department or the Minister. However, I gathered that there would be no control over the work by the Victorian Government. I emphasized this point in my second-reading speech and pointed out that Victoria had suffered through the lack of control in the construction of Kings Bridge and the West Gate project. There seems to be an absence of any form of Victorian control over these works.

Clause 2 provides, inter alia-

"The Commonwealth Act" means the Act of ,the Commonwealth entitled the Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation Aot 1970 . . . . . and, if the firstmentioned Act has been further amended before, or is further amended :after, the passing of this Act, means that firstmentioned Act as in force as amended at the material time.

I ask the Minister to explain that provISIOn. The Bolte Government rushed in and agreed to this scheme. It then realized it had given too much control to the Commonwealth Government and was forced to obtain a supplementary agreement.

4136 Snowy Mountains Engineering [ASSEMBLY.] Corporation (Victoria) "Bill. '" "

I want to ensure that there will be no need for further supplementary agreements.

The clause was agreed to. Clause 3 (As to status of Snowy

Mountains Engineering Corporation under law of the State).

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-1 am disappointed that the Minister of Water Supply did not reply to the points I raised when clause 2 was being considered by the Committee, particularly because the Bolte Government did not look closely enough at the original agreement. Honorable members realize that the provisions of this Bill will bind the citizens of Victoria for many years.

Sub-clause (1) of clause 3 provides, inter alia-

The CO'rporatiO'n shall be deemed to' be and at all times since the passing O'f the SnO'wy M0untains Engineering CO'rpO'ratiO'n Act 1970 O'f the CO'mmO'nwealth to' have been fO'r all purposes O'f the law O'f the State-

(b) capable in its cO'rporate name O'f acquiring, hO'lding, leasing and disPO'sing O'f real and persO'nal property and O'f suing and being sued.

The corporation could steal the Premier's pants and be acting legally in doing so. This provision could also clash with the interests of municipalities and it may affect the operation of the Victorian legislation on land utilization. Which legislation will prevail? Will this Bill give the Commonwealth overriding power over all Victorian legislation?

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply) .-1 can understand the anxiety expressed by the honorable member for Benambra, but I do not think he has read the Commonwealth Act. Therefore, I will make a copy of it available to him now. The honorable member's fears should be allayed if he reads sub-clause (2) of clause 4 of the Bill which refers to sub-sections (3) , (4) and (5) of section 17 of the Commonwealth Act. Obviously, the honorable member has expressed his anxiety without having

examined the relationship between the Bill and the Commonwealth Act. I hope the honorable member for Benambra has not made statements without having read the Commonwealth Act because this measure is C'omplementary to that Act, as is clearly stated. I trust that I have allayed the understandable anxiety of the honorable member.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-I thank the Minister for breaking hls Trappist-like silence. I asked a question because, having read the Commonwealth Act, I could not see the answer. I hope the honorable gentleman is correct in his view. I appreciate his breaking the tight-"lipped si'lence which was so evident and which was evidence of guilt.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining 'clauses.

The Bill was reported to the House without amendm"ent, and passed through its remaining stages.

POLICE FORCE. REPORT BY COLONEL SIR ERIC

ST. JOHNSTON.

The debate (adjourned from the previous day) was resumed on the motion of Mr. Reid (Chief Secretary)-

That this HO'use takes nO'te O'f the repO'rt O'n the VictO'ria PO'lice FO'rce fO'llO'wing an inspectiO'n by ColO'nel Sir Eric St. JO'hnstO'n, C.B.E., Q.P.M., H.M. Chief InspectO'r O'f CO'nstabulary fO'r England and Wales, 1967-70.

and on Mr. Wi'lkes's amendment-That the follO'wing wO'rds be added to'

the mO'tiO'n :_CI and in view O'f the cO'ntents resO'lves that the GO'vernment, having failed to' prO'vide and' maintain an adequate Police FO'rce, deserves the strO'ngest censure O'f this HO'use."

Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-Yesterday, much was said about the report of Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston, and the original moti'on m'oved by the Chief Secretary was that the House should take note 'of that report. All honorable members agree that" it is a good and comprehensive report

Police [17 MARCH, 1971.] Force. 4137

which contains many points for serious consideration by the Governmenrt over a peri'Od of years. In his report, Sir Eric admitted that it would take at least five years, 'Or even more, rto implement a'll 'Of the recommendati'Ons. From past 'experience of the Government's a'cti'Ons, it is evident that certainly more than five years will elapse before all of the recommendations are implemented.

My c'Onsidered 'opinion 'Of the report as a whole is that it indicates a gradual decl'ine 'Over a number 'Of years in the standard of the Victoria Police Force. It is surprising that members of the Government party, particularly back-bench members who should be 'interested in this report and should make s'Ome 'contribution, are not taking a m'Ore active part in this debate.

Members of the Country Party consider that The amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Oppositi'~n must be supp'o~ted if honorable members are honest with themselves. The honorable member for Midlands went to great pains to point 'out that some criticisms could be made 'Of the report, and I believe the honorable member meant what he said. His experience of the Police Force would be far greater than that of mOist other honorable members and natturally he would see matters in a somewhat different light. Nevertheless, the honorable member admitted that it is a good report and that it contains many worth-while recommendations.

Honorable members have to read only a short distance into the report to find some glaring discrepancies when compared with statements made by the former Chief Secretary. I refer particularly to a report in the Sun News-Pictorial of 10th June, 1969. At that stage a claim for higher pay for policemen was being heard. The then Chief Secretary, Sir Arthur Rylah, who was Acting Premier at the time, is reported as having said that constables in Victoria received higher pay and allowances than any others in Australia and that, except in one

instance, Victorian rates of pay were higher than those in New South Wales.

It is interesting to note that in his excellent report at page 74, under the heading "Pay and Allowances," Sir Eric St. Johnston said-

I am informed that until 1966, the members of the Victoria Police were better paid than those of most other Australian police forces, but that since that year the relative pay scales have become worse and members of forces in three other States now receive more pay for their rank than do members of the Victoria Police.

Yet, in 1969, the then Chief Secretary said that Victorian police constables received higher pay and allowances than those in any other State. Either Sir Eric or the previous Chief Secretary was wrong.

It is unfortunate that such remarks are made from time to time by Government members because the public of Victoria have been led to believe that by world standards this State has an excellent Police Force. A brief reading of the report reveals that this is not the position, and somebody has to take the blame. Admittedly, the Government has set out rapidly to take action on some of the recommendations proposed by Sir Eric, but the question now before the Chair is whether the Government has failed to provide and maintain an adequate Police Force. It is useless to rush in at this stage and attempt to fill the gaps which have been created over a period of years. The decline in the standards of the Victoria Police Force, particularly its strength, is alarming. How any member of the Government party could assert that the Victoria Police Force has been adequately provided for and maintained is beyond my comprehension.

I invite honorable members to consider the statement made by Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston in regard to the corruption of members of the Police Force, which is a pertinent point.

4138 Police [ASSEMBLY.] Force.

At page 172 of his report, Sir Eric referred to complaints against police and discipline. He stated in paragraph 39-

I am not satisfied that the members of the force are being adequately supervised in their work-and this applies particularly to new recruits in the first year of their service when they leave the depot; and I am not satisfied that the members of the force are adequately paid to remove them from the more obvious temptations.

These two points are closely linked together. Whilst we have been led to believe that the members of the Police Force were better paid than those in any other State in Australia, Sir Eric makes the logical point that unless members of the force are adequately paid they are obviously open to serious temptation by way of corruption. On this point alone, the Government must act immediately ;n order to allay the fears of the general public throughout the State. I cannot imagine where the money will be obtained to rectify this position, or how the Government can justify its assertion that the strength, pay, and conditions of the Police Force have not deteriorated seriously. How could the Government hones't1y face the public of Victoria and say, "We have an excellent Police Force in this State "?

The report deals at length with the problem of supervising officers. Of course, this stems back to the statement by Sir Eric that the senior members of the force, from the Chief Commissioner down, are seriously overworked, with inadequate facilities to carry out their duties. This is a difficult problem to overcome. Although the Government has already taken steps to appoint two additional assistant commissioners, no indication has been given concerning the location at which these senior staff officers will operate or the type of facilities they will have for their important supervisory work. In the absence of information to the contrary, I presume these officers will be placed in a small office, probably at Russell Street, where they will endeavour to carry out their work

Mr. Whiting.

under crowded and inadequate conditions. The problem will not be quickly overcome, even with the appointment of two additional commissioners. Much time must elapse before satisfactory conditions will be available for these officers to perform their duties effiCiently. In the meantime, anything could happen, and this is serious.

The inquiry also revealed a serious depletion in the amount of money spent on recruiting and training. On page 44 of his report, Sir Eric referred to the financial situation and stated in paragraph 3-

In the financial year 1969-70, $6,850 was spent in advertiSing for recruits, but of the funds provided in the Budget for 1970-71, it has been possible only to appropriate $5,000 for expenditure on advertiSing.

Wi th the reduction in the value of money in this period owing to the increased costs of advertising, only a paorer type of advertiSing programme will be possible. Comments such as this in the report make one wonder how inefficient our Police Force is when compared-as I presume Sir Eric compared it-with the police forces in Britain and other States of Australia.

Sir Eric made reference to the problem of the rapid transfer of superintendents between various districts throughout the State. It is remarkable to note that in the five-year period since 1st January, 1965, to which the report refers, no fewer than nine superintendents and inspectors were stationed at the Hamilton district headquarters. Sir Eric emphasized that it is absolutely necessary that superintendents and inspectors should know the men under them and have some knowledge of the varying activities that occur from district to district. It is beyond my comprehension how, under the present circumstances, they can recommend who should be eligible for promotion. This also highlights a serious problem within the Police Force at present.


I agree with the remarks of the honorable member for Geelong, who I believe has good cause for concern. Geelong is m'entioned in t.his regard in Sir Eric St. Johnston's report. Although it is close to Melbourne, Geelong is confronted with a problem as a number of vacancies are caused by superintendents being promoted and transferred around the State. The honorable member for Midlands adequately stressed this point early in the debate. The honorable member for Lowan and the honorable m·ember for Bendigo are also involved in this aspect because similar problems have been encountered in the areas which they represent. I shall be interested to know if the two honorable members will express their views on Sir Eric's comments concerning their electorates. The honorable member for Lowan would be particularly concerned about the transfer of superintendents and the gaol facilities at Horsham.

The subject of promotion has been adequately covered by other speakers during this debate. No doubt the younger and newly-recruited members of the force, who hold the necessary qualifications, fac.e many frustrations before being able to secure promotions to higher ranks.

I agree with the honorable member for Midlands that problems can arise if senior officers, who are recruited overseas, or from other police forces, are allowed to retain their seniority. This practice could rapidly upset the very fine ba'lance that must exist throughout the force. However, if the Police Force requires a further 2,000 men, obviously senior officers as well as recruits at the junior levels must be appointed. The Government has already stated that it is prepared to recruit as many of these men as possible in order to build up the force, but how this will be done or whether restrictions will be placed on the amount of finance available for this purpose has not been fully explained. The recruitment of these men will not take place rapidly, because the required number

of men with reasonable educational qualifications is not available at present.

In referring to the low standard of buildings used by the police, Sir Eric really let his hair down, if I may use a colloquial expression. At paragraph 8 on page 86, under the heading, "Buildings", the report states-

I would, however, point out that in the financial year 1965-66, $970,400 was allocated for buildings and maintenance, while the present financial year only $875,300 or $95,100 less was provided.

Again, he points to the decline in the value of money and to the great increase in building costs. For some unexplained reason, perhaps known only to the Government, Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston has pointed out that the amount of money allocated for buildings and maintenance this financial year has been reduced by $95,100 compared with 1965-66. The comparison is much worse when allowance is made for the decline in the value of money that has occurred since 1965-.66.

Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston itemized the problems existing throughout the metropolitan area. He referred to the police depot, the motor vehicle and radio workshops, and so on, and made a comprehensive report on all the activities of the ancillary services in the force. To emphasize a point made by me earlier and to enlarge on the suggestion that the honorable member for Lowan should give full consideration to this report, I now refer to Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston's comment at paragraph 52 on page 91 of the report, where he stated-

In the country, the district headquarters at Swan Hill and the divisional headquarters at Mildura and at Horsham should be replaced by modem and larger premises as soon as possible.

About two years ago the former Chief Secretary inspected the Mildura divisional headquarters and agreed that a new building should be erected for the police inspector and his staff. Because of the financial problems

4140 Police [ASSEMBL Y.] Force.

confronting the Government, nothing has been done in this regard. The honorable member for Lowan is interjecting. In recent years, several persons have represented that electorate; the honorable member for Lowan himself represented the district for three years before 1967. I cannot understand why drought conditions would affect problems related to police buildings, but when Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston has singled out these areas as containing buildings that should be replaced as soon as possible there must be something seriously wrong with the existing buildings. Honorable members will agree that unless considerable pressure is placed on the Government to ensure that the buildings are replaced at an early date, any additional men assigned to the Police Force at these stations will be operating most inefficiently.

Mr. WILTON .-At least there is a police building in the honorable member's district; that is more than there is in my electorate.

Mr. WHITING.-I sympathize with the honorable member for Broadmeadows, but even if the provisions of the report are implemented it will be difficult for new appointees to the Police Force to perform their duties properly, as they will have to make do in all sorts of temporary premises until further finance becomes available. Suffice it to say that Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston has singled out certain areas which should be provided with new buildings as soon as possible. I trust that at an early date the Government will take that recommendation into consideration.

I now refer to that section of the report which deals with watchhouses and cellblocks. At page 92, in paragraph 56, the report states-

I inspected the police cells at the police stations at Bendigo, Swan Hill and Mildura and I learned that the cells are gazetted as police gaols where some short-term prisoners are held for the duration of sentences; up to 30 days in the case of Bendigo and Mildura, and for lesser periods in other places. I am informed that this applies at other country stations which are situated some distance from Melbourne

. . . the practice is undesirable from a police point of view; quite clearly, persons who have been taken before a court of law by the police should pas'S into the custody of the penal branch, Social Welfare Department, to serve out any term of imprisonment imposed on them.

Those honorable members who know anything of the problems of social welfare would agree that this recommendation must be carried into effect at the earliest opportunity. In paragraph 58 of his report, Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston continues-

The cell accommodation at Bendigo is very poor, the cells are unheated in winter and overheated in summer. There is no work for the men to do, while there are no facilities for cooking meals, all of which have to be provided by an outside caterer.

It is obvious that the Prisons Division of the Social Welfare Department must take over this establishment. One wonders why these conditions have been allowed to operate for so long.

I shall deal now with the metropolitan area, but I do not wish to refer specially to Pentridge Gaol. The conditions prevailing there almost defy description, particularly in the remand yard, where any number of innocent persons held awaiting trial are forced to mix with all sorts of people accused of various crimes. The Government has little reason to be proud of the situation in the remand yard at Pentridge; in fact, it should be downright ashamed of the conditions there. Members of the Government appear to be very sensitive about this establishment, which is close to their electorates. I cannot imagine why. I wonder whether these honorable members have visited the remand yard at Pentridge. In his report, Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston made a 'severe criticism of these conditions.

The report refers in detail to the condition of stations and residences in country districts and to the problems faced in the warmer parts of the State. Honorable members know of the hot schools in the northern areas-the Minister of Education is familiar with them-and the report emphasizes that similar conditions


apply to police residences and stations. I do not doubt that if the Government acts on the report those members of the Police Force posted to the warmer areas of the State will have the pleasure of enjoying some kind of mechanical cooling system, particularly in new buildings. At page 93 of his report Sir Eric St. Johnston stated-

When I visited Ouyen police station the temperature was 105 degrees. This is a very good small modem building completed over a year ago. The schedule included the supply of fans, but these had not yet been provided, while the garden surrounding the building had not been made, giving an unkempt appearance to the premises. This is not satisfactory and such undue delays should not occur. Sir Eric then went on to discuss architecture in these areas, a'lthough I could perhaps criticize what he says on that subject. He referred to the need for buildings to have high-roofed gables and encircling verandas, but in view of the wide variety of insulating materials which are available today, I do not think this is necessary; perhaps it was necessary some years ago. Nevertheless, Sir Eric felt that every effort should be made to adequately cool not only police stations but also residences in which police officers are required to live in these areas.

As I have previously pdinted out, the public of this State were led to believe that the salaries and working c'Ondition'S 'Of the Victorian police were better than those in any other State 'Of the Commonwealth but, bearing in mind the many criticisms of the force which are· contained in this report, the assertion that Victori-an police officers are better 'Off is either inc'Orrect 'Or the other Sta'tes of the Comm'Onwealth are lagging far beh'ind what is a minimum acceptable standard.

I do not propose to dea'l at length with other points which have been raised by Sir Eric St. Johnston, such as motor registration, and driving licence testing; however, I think his recommendations on extraneous duties could be adopted immediately by the Government.

I am certain Vhart the argument with regard to overtime wh'ich was advanced by the honorable member for Midlands earli'er in the debate is a valid one. As the honorable member said, it w'Ould provide an opportunity to have e~tra work carried out by fully qua'lified p'Olice officers and avoid the necessity of having to train others until they had reached a certain standard.

I believe the recommendations in the report concerning monetary penalties and other similar matters are very good, and I think Sir Eric made a valid poi nit at page 164 of the report, wheTe he Sltated-

Punishment is not a police responsibility and the collection of penalties in respect of parking and traffic infringement notices is not police work, but should be the responsibility of the clerks of the courts of the areas in which the offences are committed, just as fines imposed at court are paid to the clerk of the court, and I recommend that there should be an alteration in the law to provide for this in the case of penalties for traffic and parking infringements.

Art page 199, Sir Eric stated-If an epitaph had to be applied to the

Victoria Police, "It's grown like Topsy" would be a fitting one.

If that is true, the Government has little of which to be proud. It is obvious tha't this situation has be'en aU owed to deve'lop during the period in which rthis Liberal Government has been 'in office, and because 'Of that the G'Overnm'ent deserves 00 be·· censured.

Many minor irritaTions cause trouble and di'Ssatisfaction within the force; for example,in October of last year it was pointed' 00;'t to me that members of the Police Force at Mlldura were 'able t'O have 'c'Ontributions to the Hospital Benefits Association or the Latr'Obe Valley Hospital Fund deducted from thei:r salaries, but no deduction'S were made in respect of the Mildura and District Hospital and Medical Fund. I took up this matter with the Under-Secretary, who, in a l~tter dated 18th November, 1970, repbed-

I refer to my letter dated 30· October, 1970, concerning the possibility of having deductions made on the polic.e pay-roll and


paid to the Mildura and District Hospital and Medical Fund on behalf of member contributors in that district.

At the present time there is an examination of police pay-roll procedures in progress and it is not convenient to introduce any additional deduction headings until any re-organization which is found necessary in the existing system is completed.

At that time, I do not consider that the introduction of this new heading for deductions will present any great problem and the matter will be borne in mind with a view towards acceding to the request of the members at Mildura in due course.

r am aware that only a short period has elapsed since that letter was written, but nothing has yet been done about the matter. I believe that contributions to the Mildura fund should be deducted from a police officer's salary, because if he is a member of a local fund he can obtain immediate reimbursement of hospital or medical accounts, whereas if he is a member of an outside fund he must suffer quite a considerable delay before he is reimbursed. As I have said, matters such as this-although comparatively minor-cause much dissatisfaction which could be easily avoided.

In an article in the Herald today, Inspector Crowley, the secretary of the Victorian Police Association, listed seven proposals on which he thought the Government should take immediate action. They are-

An urgent increase of 2,000 members; A substantial increase in pay; A reduction in height for recruits; An extension of overtime payments; A removal of extraneous duties; The appointment of 110 more officers;

and A big increase in police housing and

building.

Insepector Crowley's proposals would require the expenditure of many millions of dollars and, as is well known, the Government has nothing like that amount to spend on the improvement of conditions within the Police Force. For permitting this situation to develop, the Country Party believes the Government should be censured.

Mr. Whiting.

Mr. McLAREN (Bennettswood).I rise to commend the report prepared by Sir Eric St. Johnston, to support the statements made by the Chief Secretary, and to oppose the censure motion which has been moved by the Opposition and supported by the Country Party.

In launching the Opposition's attack on the motion moved by the Chief Secretary, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition made a long, full and erudite speech, but I believe the honorable member had his head turned backward rather than forward. This has been the attitude of those who have opposed the motion. They are looking at the past rather than to the more positive aspects of the report and the action which has already been taken and will be taken by the Government in the near future.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition made several statements which ought to be denied. He suggested that the Government had panicked in requesting that this report should be prepared. In my view, the Government showed wisdom in calling for a report.

Mr. WILKEs.-Don't kid yourself. The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon

Christie).-Order! r make it very clear in the debate tonight that interjections must be kept down to intermittent ones. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition was heard very well for a long time and I invite the honorable member to listen to the counter argument.

Mr. McLAREN.-The Deputy Leader of the Opposition knows that this was an appropriate investigation to be made and that is why he is interjecting. It was a logical step for the Government to take.

Mr. WILKES.-It was nothing of the sort.

The SPEAKER.-Order! The honorable member for Bennettswood would be well advised not to induce


interjections. I will not warn the Deputy Leader of the Opposition again.

Mr. McLAREN.-The Deputy Leader of the Opposition overlooked the fact that it was a logical step to take. The second point which I deny is the statement by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that Victoria resembles Chicago of the 1930s; that it is a mecca for every criminal in Australia. Obviously, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and the other members of his party are not aware of the situation that existed in the United States of America at that time or of the conditions which exist there now.

Mr. CURNow.-We watch Elliot Ness.

Mr. McLAREN.-Apparently, that is how you form your opinion.

The SPEAKER.-Order! The honorable member for Bennettswood will address the Chair and not interjectors. The honorable member for Kara Kara will cease interjecting in that tone of voice.

Mr. McLAREN.-It is laughable to suggest tha t this S ta te is full of criminals. The suggestion represents a disjointed vievl of the community as a whole.

Thirdly, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition suggested that the Government was not handling this report in the right way or in the right spirit. I have already said that I believe the Chief Secretary has given a sure indication of the po'sitive approach adopted by the Government.

The honorable member for Midlands adopted a positive approach based upon his experience in this field. It is useful for the House to have amongst its members a former member of the Police Force who is able to make so many positive suggestions. The honorable member sugeested that there were temptations in the licensing of motor vehicles and testing of applicants for driving licences, and this information should

be made available to the House or to the Chief Secretary. By joining with the Opposition in this case, the Country Party is also looking at the past rather than at the positive aspects which I have indicated.

In dealing with the report, I shall be more positive than members of the Opposition, who have been completely negative in their approach to this debate and have been destructive in every sense. Although it has been stated that there is no denigration of the Police Force, nevertheless denigration of the report is a criticism of the police situation.

Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston had the following terms of reference:-

To examine the administration and organization of the Police Force of Victoria and to report and make recommendations as to the means by which the efficiency of the Police Force can be improved.

I am sure that all honorable members agree that it is an outstanding report. Any honorable member who has been associated with report writing or investigations of any kind will recognize in this report the hand of an efficient and capable person. The report has been well received throughout the community. Even the Opposition accepts this because its Deputy Leader has admitted that it is a fine report.

The report was tabled on 2nd March and the Age newspaper of the following day-a newspaper which has been somewhat critical of the Government from time to time-said that the report had been an outstanding example of police work, thorough investigation, and intelligent conclusions concerned with prevention as well as with cure. The report has also been well received by the Police Association, community bodies and individual members of the force.

One aspect of the report to which I refer is the necessity for reports of this kind to be made from time to time. As Sir Eric says in paragraph 12 of chapter I. on page 10, it has been part of the historical process


of the police forces in England, Wales and Scotland for an inspection to be made at least annually. A similar scheme should be instituted in this State with regard to the Police Force, penal institutions, social welfare institutions and other institutions, as a means of overcoming some of the difficulties that occur from time to time.

Although I do not propose to go through the report in detail, because all honorable members have had an opportunity of reading it, I wish to make a few points relating to it. On page 11, Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston refers to the mutual responsibilities towards each other of the police and the community. The denigration to which I referred earlier, and the Opposition's statements against the Government and the report, do not take into account the fact that Parliament has a responsibility to accept a report of this kind and to ensure that it is implemented. In paragraph 18 of chapter I., Sir Eric states that the community has the right to demand a police force which is comprised of men and women with particular qualifications and characteristics.

In paragraph 19 of chapter I. Sir Eric states, inter alia-

In return, each member of the police service has the right to expect from the community-

(a) Adequate remuneration. . . . (b) Adequate training facilities. (c) Adequate buildings and equipment. (d) Well maintained houses in which to

live. . . . (e) Sensible laws . to ,administer. (I) The support of the courts. . . .

I remind' honorable members who are interjecting that the Chief Secretary has stated that it is the intention of the Government to examine these points during the period in which Sir Eric himself suggests that his recommendations should be implemented. Sir Eric goes on to say that the police have a right to 'expect full support from those in authority-they would include members of the Opposition and of the Country Party-from the

Mr. McLaren.

press, radio and television, and from all honest members of the community in those difficult and often dangerous tasks that 'it is the duty of the police to carry out.

Sir Eric has set out some of the responsibilities which this House should face as it debates the report. The recommendations which appear at pages 191 to 200 cover a wide field. I reiterate that the Chief Secretary has already stated that he has taken steps to implement some of the recommendations and that it is the intention of the Government to examine the needs which are set out. I do not suggest that every one of the 186 recommendations will be implemented. I am sure that, in the short time available to him, Sir Eric St. Johnston did not have the opportunity to cover every aspect of police work. The honorable member for Midlands made one relevant point regarding superannuation and suggested that the recommendation on this would not be totally acceptable. However, these are the points which the GDvernment will ,take intO' consideratiDn.

Other reports associated with the general report are Df great CDnsequence, but they cannot be made available readily now. Their benefit will be felt when the Government is able to consider the confidential memoranda relating to' the Vice Squad, the Special Branch, the Ob-'servation Squad, the Intelligence ,Squad, and the ConsDrting Squad.

Mr. WILKES.-YOU will not see them.

Mr.' McLAREN.-I am not suggesting that hDnorable members will see those reports. The responsibility to consider them properly will be left with the Government elected by the peDple Df VictDria, and I am sure that that will be done. The repDrt is a little ·inadequate in relation to' public relations work, which is·..;mentioried at pages 23 and 24. In the light of develDpments which have taken' place in a number Df· police


forces overseas, I was surprised that Sir Eric did not elaborate on what should be done in this field. When I returned from overseas in 1969. I placed before the Chief Commissioner a quantity of material about the. Community Relations Division of the New York Police Force. Precinct work is carried into the local community and there are close relations between the police and social organizations' such as churches. This results in better co-operation between the community and the police. Something on similar lines must be done in Victoria.

The London Metropolitan Police Force has introduced public relations work into nine of the 23 divisions of metropolitan London. As a result, the police gain the confidence of the people, something which is most necessary. In Singapore over the years the police have moved to make closer contact with the community. There are police cadets in the schools. This helps to bring about better relations between the police and the people, and also helps in police recruiting.

What is most important about the report is the need for its implementation. Members of the Labor Party and of the Country Party continue to overlook the undertaking given by the Chief Secretary on behalf of the Government that the report will be implemented. In moving that the House take note of the report, the honorable gentleman stated-

I have said that the Government will implement the recommendations, subject to the provisions of the necessary man power and funds.

Some honorable members laugh at this.

Mr. WILKES.-We have had fifteen years of the Government's promises.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie }.-Order! I remind the House, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, and the honorable member for Footscray that interjections are disorderly, and that I have already given one warning.

Session 1971.-150.

Mr. McLAREN.-In his speech, the Chief Secretary went on to say-

By this I do not mean that only those recommendations which do nOlt involve man power and money will be implemented.

I will make 'appropriate recommendations to the Treasurer for the provision of such funds which in the present financial situation can be made available to meet the recommendations in order of the priorities deltermined.

The maintenance of law and order must be given the highest priority in the type of democratic society in which we live. There must be a Police Force responsible to Parliament to ensure that the laws of the State are maintained and that crime and violence are kept to a minimum. If SOCiety is to survive and progress, such a force as we have in Victoria needs to be not only maintained but developed. Some of the deficiencies which we all recognize at present will have to be overcome.

Parliament must give the highest priority to maintaining law and order, and, speaking not as a supporter of the Government but as a member of the Parliament, I suggest that there should be full maintenance and support of the Police Force with the allocation of the necessary funds to provide what is needed so there is total respect for the Police Force within the community. In an orderly society such as that in which we live, the st. Johnston report and what the Government will do about it are of primary importance. Therefore, the House should accept the motion of the Chief Secretary that the House takes note of the report, and reject the views expressed by the Opposition and by the Country Party.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).The Opposition's amendment to the motion is simple. It is censure of the Government for its inability, over a long period, to maintain, improve, and modernize the Police Force. The honorable member for Bennettswood took the Deputy


Leader of the Opposition to task, but he offered nothing more nor less than the platitudes which have emanated from the Government for some time. The public is sick and tired of hearing them. The public want positive action and a lead from the Parliament on the future role of the Victoria Police Force. The graft and corruption which have occurred within the force have been due to the lack of funds and of Government support to enable the force to develop along the lines so necessary in a modern society.

I positively refute the allegations made by the honorable member for Bennettswood. Members of the Opposition are proud of the Victoria Police Force and are unanimous in praising its work and its attitudes. The Opposition, from its Leader through to its back-bench members, has supported the force. That is why the Opposition has moved this amendment of censure to the Government's motion. The Government has merely moved that the House takes note of the report of Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston. That is not good enough. Members of the Opposition are pressing that all of the recommendations in the report should be adopted forthwith. That is their attitude and they stand by it.

The honorable member for Bennettswood claims that Victoria is not the mecca for criminals. I am reliably informed that goods and chattels to a value exceeding $1 million are stolen each month. In the past twelve months, more than 9,000 motor vehicles have been stolen, of which 600 have not been recovered. The monetary value of the vehicles not recovered over a period of twelve months would exceed $2.5 million and the value of goods lost through larceny, theft and burglary would exceed $1 million a month. That is one reason why members of the Opposition have been so forceful in presenting this case. While the crime rate is rising continuously, it is no comfort to the victims of crime

1\-1,.. Edmunds.

for the Government continually to issue platitudes, as evidenced by the honorable member for Bennettswood tonight. The public wishes to know what the Government proposes to do about the St. Johnston report. Following the recent issue of this report further allegations have been made of graft and corruption within the force. These need to be aired promptly or refuted, because they can only damage the image of the service. They should be investigated, reported upon and a statement issued on whether they are true or false.

The Government put up only a junior Minister-the Minister for Social Welfare-to refute the Opposition's case. It is fair criticism to say that the honorable gentleman did a poor job in defending the Government. I am surprised that, in its inept attitude, the Government did not call upon a far more senior member of the Ministry, preferably at the top level, to explain the serious allegations which have been made about the Victoria Police Force. The force should not be continually denigrated and assailed by allegations of graft and corruption. The Minister for Social Welfare said that a blueprint was necessary for the future of the force. I state categorically that a blueprint like the St. Johnston report is of no use if the Government does not adopt it and implement its various recommenda:tions.

The Minister for Social Welfare spent most of his time stating that the various recommendations of the Murray report had been implemented. The h'Onorable gentleman brought down the House by saying that the then Acting Chief Secretary-the present Minister of Health-made various suggestions on how the Police Force could be improved. It is of no use the Minister for Social Welfare dragging in the former Acting Chief Secretary to boost his argument by saying that the Murray report has been implemented and that the Minister of Hea'lth now believes that the Police


Force is much more efficient. Members of the Opposition have a different opinion and are prepared to substantiate their case. The first allegations of graft and serious forms of corruption were made in 1968, but it was a long 'time before the Government took action. Finally it appointed Mr. Kaye, Q.C., to conduct an inquiry, and he made a report, which was not submitted to Parliament.

Mr. WILKES.-It cost the taxpayers $50,000.

Mr. EDMUNDS.-That is so. In his policy speech at Ararat, the Premier devoted haH a page to saying that the Government would examine the desirability of using a computer within the Communications and Records Section 'of the Victoria Police Force and that he would appoint someone to conduct an independent inquiry. Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston has now conducted 'that inquiry. The Premier placed great emphasis on what the Government proposed to do. The honorable gentleman said-

We have already had an examination made by consultants of the desirability of using a computer, particularly in communications and records, and we propose that an immediate works study be made concerning its use and advantages, and the type of computer which is most suitable for this purpose.

I am highlighting these aspects because they are referred to in the report which the Government has received from Colonel Sir Eric st. Johnston. On 10th March, I asked the Chief Secretary the following question:-

\Vhether a work study group has been set up by the Government to examine the desirability of the Police Department using a computer, particularly for communications and records; if so, (a) who are the members of the work study group; (b) what were its findings concerning computer use and advantages within the department; and (c) what type of computer is recommended, and where it would be located?

In reply the honorable gentleman said that no study group had been set up but the proposal has been under consideration.

It seems that the Government's line of thought is that if it can get past this censure motion it need no longer be concerned about criticism of the Police Force and it will be able to settle back to the laisser-faire attitude that it has adopted in the past. I assure the House that the Opposition will not let the Government adopt such an attitude.

Last night the Minister for Social Welfare misquoted figures from the Official Year Book of the Commonwealth of A ustralia. The honorable gentleman quoted what he said were the amounts expended per head of population on various police forces in Australia. The figures for the financial year 1968-69 for each State appear at page 564 of the Official Year Book of the Commonwealth of Australia for 1970. Those figures indicate that the expenditure per head of population in Victoria on police services was $7.89, which is the lowest figure for any Australian State. The next lowest figure was $8.04 for South Australia. Tasmania had the highest figure, which was $9.70. The figures for the other States were: Western Australia, $8.53; Queensland, $9.32; and New South Wales, $8.66. I thought it necessary to quote those figures to put the record straight because the figures quoted by the Minister for Social Welfare were incorrect.

The speech made by the Chief Secretary during this debate was illprepared and consisted of a series of platitudes. The most important point made by the honorable gentleman was that a shortage of police exists in the London metropolitan area. In Victoria there is a shortage of 2 policemen in 5 under the optimum strength and in London the shortage is 5 in 24. The comparison is not as forceful as the Minister indicated. If


the Chief Secretary was serious in the remarks he made, he ought to vote for the amendment moved by the Opposition.

The report by Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston contains nothing that has not been referred to by members of the Opposition in this House over the past few years. A summary of the major pOints made by Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston in his report is that 2,000 more police are needed, that members of the force should receive higher pay, that there should be a reduction in the height qualification for recruits, that the extraneous duties which policemen perform ought to be eliminated, and that better buildings and houses are required for policemen. I shall not debate those recommendations in detail, but I point out that in his annual report in 1956 the then Chief Commissioner of Police, Mr. Porter, made similar comments. At that time the Government appointed a committee which visited every police station in Victoria over a period of six months and the· committee reported categorically that every police district was under strength and 2,000 more men were needed to bring all districts up to the required strength. Because the same comments are made in the St. Johnston report, this ought to be the first priority of the Government.

I t is not good enough to increase the number of civilians employed by the Police Department because the Victoria Police Force employs more civilians that any other police force in Australia. There is an urgent need in Victoria for more uniformed men to provide the friendly police service that Victorians used to receive. It is of no use trying to protect citizens or property from an office. Members of the Police Force are well aware of the need for more mobility and more foot patrols in densely populated areas. If the recommendations of Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston were implemented, this could be achieved.

Mr. Edmunds.

Present salary rates paid to members of the Police Force do not encourage men to join the force. I have before me a wage claim advice from the Victorian Police Association. This refers to a salary claim which is being heard at present. It is most interesting to read this document, which gives lucid details of the problems associated with rates of pay and overtime in the Police Force. The wage claim advice has been given to those persons who are appearing before the Police Service Board in an effort to encourage the board to grant additional pay to policemen.

Mr. ROSSITER.-Is that case being heard now?

Mr. EDMUNDS.-Yes.

Mr. ROSSITER.-Is this in order?

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! If the Minister of Health wishes to take a point of order, there is a correct way of doing it.

Mr. EDMUNDS.-The case was being heard today, and doubtless it will continue tomorrow and next week. This document is being freely circulated to persons who are going to appear before the board. Members of the press will be present at the hearing and will be free to publish anything of interest in the daily newspapers.

According to the Government Statist, the average weekly wage is about $81.10, and with the 6 per cent increase in the national wage this should rise to $85.96. The average weekly wage of a member of the Victoria Police Force is well under that figure. The claim before the board is that the average weekly earnings of a policeman should be in the vicinity of $86 a week. The Government Statist has stated that the average amount earned in overtime in Victoria at present is $11.30


a week, which is about $590 per annum. Police overtime increased to $193,000 in the year 1969-70 for the 4,300 uniformed members, and the sum of $410,000 has been allocated for the year 1970-71. The first figure represents about 85 cents a week and the latter about $1.80 a week. This is the amount that the average policeman is able to earn a week in overtime. It is a simple matter of economics; nobody will work for this amount of money in an affluent community such as ours.

It has been put to members of the Opposition that unless the police wage claim is recognized by the tribunal, and by the Government in particular-which I have no doubt has some influence on the thinking of the tribunal-there will be no need for a watching company to advertise for more employees; an employer will be able to go from police station to police station and entice men away from the force by offering a slightly higher salary. A highly efficient policeman, trained by the State, and working in one of the down-graded and despicable looking police stations in the inner metropolitan area, can be enticed away for as little as another couple of dollars a week to work for a private watching organization. This situation causes members of the Opposition to say categorieally that if people can solicit staff by offering policemen an extra couple of doHars a week, the Government should be s'ensible enough to recognize that more m'Oney must be made available to pay overtime and t'O upgrade the whole range of police salaries.

The wage claim advice contains a considerable amount of detail with which I shall not weary the House. However, it makes some interesting comparisons of salaries. A prison officer commences on a salary of $3,705 a year and rises to $3,980 a year. A city council parking attendant starts on $3,906 a year, and rises to

$4,419 a year-without any promotion and without passing any examinations.

Mr. CRELLIN .-He may be overpaid.

Mr. EDMUNDS.-That may be so; nevertheless, that is the rate of pay which the city council finds it necessary to offer to obtain pa'rking attendants. A prison officer's starting pay, plus penalty rates, is $4,519 a year which is about $800 or $1,000 more than is received by a first constable in the Victoria Police Force. This seems to be an odd way to arrange wage priorities.

The starting wage for a policeman under 21 years of age is $3,055 a year. If he is over 21 years of age he receives $3,228 a year. This is a poor 'salary fior a highly trained man. The Government stands condemned if it will not change its attitude to police salaries.

Mr. CRELLIN .-Who fixes the salaries?

Mr. EDMUNDS.-The Police Service Board. On the question of the mInImUm height for policemen, Sir Eric St. Johnston states his opinion that there is no need to have Goliaths as policemen; that it does not require a man of 6 feet or 5 ft. 8! in. to take fingerprints or to drive a police vehicle; that in the normal course of events it would be preferable to recruit persons with a range of heights; and that it would be a good thing if by lowering the height standard more people were encouraged to offer themselves for selection. Members of the Opposition consider that this is a good suggestion.

If the Government were turned out of office next week and members of the Opposition were fortunate enough to form the Government we would change that regulation immediately and more recruits would be

4150. Police I

[ASSEMBLY. ] Force.

available almost straight away. It would be as simple as that. Sir Eric states categorically that he considers that that acti'On should be taken, and I know of no reason why the Government should not give the proposal serious consideration.

Certain duties such as debt collecting and the serving of summonses for debt collectors should be taken from the police because such activities have caused considerable damage to the public image of members of the Victoria Police Force. The main point I wish to stress is that police housing and police buildings should be upgraded. This is where the greatest sum of public money is involved. According to the Police Association there is a 33 per cent loss of recruits in training due to the poor image of training facilities and the disappointment they receive as soon as they see the type of buildings in which they are going to have to work over a long period. The Police Depot denigrates the whole atmosphere of police training, being made up of old huts which remind many young constables of their fathers' time when "Dudley flats" was in vogue. This is one matter about which the Government could do something immediately to improve the image of the Victoria Police Force. The Government stands censured for the attitudes that it has adopted over a long period. It has reached this stage because it is suffering from hardening of the arteries in its attitude to change.

As I said previously, the community is losing more than $1 million a month through larcenies and burglaries. Of the 9,000 motor vehicles stolen yearly almost 600 are never recovered and are written off as a total loss. Their value is in the vicinity of $2.5 million. In all, approximately $14.5 million worth of the public's money is lost every year. This is big business for criminals. If such persons are so sophisticated that they can get away

Mr. Edmunds.

with this amount of money, it is in the interests of the public that the Government should take action and should change its priorities in respect of the Victoria Police Force. Because the Opposition wants a better PO'lice Force f'Or Victoria, it has moved an amendment to the Government's motion. If the Government's motion is adopted as it stands, this House will simply receive the report. In my view, and in the view of the Opposition, it is imperative that the Government should state categoricallyrather than in the manner adopted by the Chief Secretary in his tedious notes-what is proposed concerning the future of the Victoria Police Force.

On the motion of Mr. STOKES (Evelyn), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until next day.

ADJOURNMENT. EDUCATION DEPARTMENT: GLENROY

HIGH SCHOOL: SPENSLEY STREET, CLIFTON HILL, PRIMARY SCHOOLLOCAL AUTHORITIES SUPERANNUATION (DISABILITY BENEFITS) BILL: PROCLAMATION, 4151 - VICTORIAN RAILWAYS: GREENSBOROUGH TRAIN SERVICE-DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE: BEE INDUSTRY-GEELONG WATERWORKS AND SEWERAGE TRUST: INTEREST PAYMENTS.


That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday next, at half-past Three o'clock.


Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-1 move-


Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).I direct to the attention of the Minister of Education a problem at the Glenroy High School in relation to what is termed an untrained teacher. No doubt the Minister is fami'liar with the situation. Several


stoppages by the staff have taken place at the school since the start of the school year. These stoppages have seriously disrupted the proceedings of the school, and naturally the parents of the students are concerned. On 9th March last, I asked the Minister of Education a question about an agreement relating to the training of teachers which was made between the department and the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association late in 1969. In reply to my question, the honorable gentleman stated-

An agreement was reached in those general terms, that graduates who had not completed a year of teacher training would be required to complete teacher training in some form the following year, either through a diploma of education course or a secondary teachers college course. However, a number of these people have refused or have failed to apply for a course of teacher training. The department is now contacting them, and the Director-General will be discussing the matter further with the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association.

The untrained teacher concerned at Glenroy High School is Miss Joan Reilly about whom I wrote to the Minister on 23rd February last. The honorable gentleman has furnished me with a reply in which he indicated that Miss Reilly was an applicant for teacher training, but owing to a shortage of accommodation she was not admitted to the teachers' college. However, in view of the Minister's answer to me on 9th March that some people did not take up their positions at the college and that applicants were being contacted, I ask the Minister to make arrangements for Miss Joan Reilly to be included with the people who are being contacted with a view to ascertaining if they have any intention of attending the training college. Miss Reilly is most anxious to attend a college so that she may receive teacher training. I understand that if this is done it will overcome the hostUe attitude of the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association branch at the

Glenroy High School because MISS Reilly is not receiving teacher training this year.

Mr. AMOS (Morwell).-I desire to bring to the attention of the Minister representing the Minister for Local Government a matter that is causing much concern not only in my electorate but throughout Victoria. Two employees of the Morwell Shire Council-the shire secretary and a bridge builder-are suffering from severe heart diseases.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member should indicate very quickly how this matter affects Government administration.

1\1r. AMOS.-Mr. Speaker, it affects Government administration to the extent that the Local Authorities Superannuation (Disability Benefits) Bill was passed through this House in the last sessional period and I believe it will not be proclaimed until October, 1971. In the interim period, these two employees of Morwell shire, in common with other municipal employees throughout Victoria, are suffering. The Morwell shire secretary is possibly not in such a bad position as the bridge builder, who has used up his long service leave and sick leave and at present is in and out of hospital at his own expense to the detriment of his family. I earnestly draw this matter to the attention of the 1\;linister representing the Minister for Local Government and ask that due consideration be given to the proclamation of the legislation referred to as soon as possible.

Mr. FELL (Greensborough).-I direct to the attention of the Minister of Transport a problem which exists for train travellers in the Greensborough electorate, but which I believe can be easily corrected. I refer to the continual cancellation of the 5.2 p.m. outward bound train to Macleod. This frequently occurring


short notice cancellation causes the 4.57 p.m. train to stop at all stations instead of running express part of the way, making an extremely slow and over-crowded journey. particularly on hot days. In addition, the next train at 5.11 p.m. is so severely overcrowded that people wishing to board it as close to the city as Clifton Hill cannot physicaUy get 'On 'the train. Few trains go to this area and I urge the Minister to examine this problem, and make it a little easier for residents of outer suburban areas, particularly Greensborough, to reach their destination in reasonable time and condition.

Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East). -I draw the attention of the Minister of Education to the failure by the Education Department to rebuild the Spensley Street Primary School at Clifton Hill which was destroyed by fire on 17th February, 1970. The department has failed not only to rebuild the school, but to indicate when it wiN be rebu'ilit. The shell of the building was demolished during the May vacation last year. and portable cla'Ss-rooms were erected on the site. Pupils at the school have been instructed in those portable class-rooms ever since.

The Minister of Education replied, in a letter dated 13th May, 1970, to representations by the Leader of the Opposition on behalf of this school as follows:-

The Public Works Department will be briefed shortly with the requirements for a new school. We expect that construction will commence towards the end of this year-the reference wa'S :to 1970-but this will depend upon the progress made with planning and documentation and on the over-all building priority.

On 16th September, in reply to a question whkh I asked on notice, the Minister gave assurances that the new 'School would be built on the same site, but the honorable gentleman wa'S unable to give any

indication when construction of the scho'Ol would be comm'enced and when it would be completed.

On 15th February, 1971, in reply to representations from the secretary of the Spensley Street Primary School c'Ommi'ttee, Mrs. I. Ross, the Minister stated-A~ this stage it is not possible to indicate

precisely when the Public Works Department will be in a position to invite tenders. A clearer indication cannot be given until our list of capital works is reviewed for the new financial year and investigations by the Public Works Department concerning the type of building best suited for the site are completed.

This position is not good enough. The Spensley Street Primary School at Clifton Hill is typical of depressed primary schools-in fact, of schools of any type-in the inner suburban areas.

In reply to a question asked by me last year, the Minister pointed out that of the 453 pupils at the school in late September last year, 126 were born outside Australia and 211 were born in Australia of parents both of whom had been born outside Australia. It is a typical inner suburban school where most of the pupils are members of migrant families. They need specialized training and positive discrimination in their favour.

It is of great significance to me and all members of the Opposition that at the annual conference of the Victorian Teachers Union this year the Director-General of Education, Mr. Brooks, in his closing remarks, said~

The final thing is that what I would like to see in the 1970s in education (although I won't be here to see it) is more being done about equality of opportun:ity. No ~atter how often we use this phrase-for In the last 50 years we have heard it again and again-it is quite incorrect to suggest that today in Victoria there is yet equality of opportunity for children.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-The honorable member has one more minute.


Mr. BORNSTEIN.-Mr. Brooks continued-

We haven't begun to provide what we might call compensatory education, that is, education which will provide better opportunities for the children in restricted and poor communities. Somehow as a community this is the job that is in front of us. It will take a lot of thought-it will take a lot of money-it will meet up with some opposition but I think it is one of the educational tasks of the 1970s.

The SPEAKER.-The honorable member is making a set speech, which is out of order on the motion for the adjournment of the sitting. The

honorable member has another half minute.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-I urge the Minister to treat as urgent the great needs of the Spensley Street Primary School at Clifton Hill and to give either myself or the House a better indication of the likelihood of reconstruction of that school.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park).-I bring to the attention of the Minister representing the Minister of Agriculture problems affecting inspectors of the Department of Agriculture who are assigned to the bee industry. ~p to the end of last year three Inspectors were employed by the department in the bee industry. Towards the end of last year one of these inspectors retire. Yesterday, in answer to a question asked by me the Minister stated- '

In view of the current restrictions on ~ta!f employment levels, I am unable to mdlcate at this stage when the vacancy will be filled.

In effect, this means a cut-back of 331 per cent in the inspection of apiaries. The Western District in a line roughly west from Swan Hill to Ballarat and then to Apollo Bay, is not now being serviced. During the past few months an outbreak of disease has occurred in the localities of Gorae, Redbank, Lismore, Cressy, Colac, Terang, and Warrnambool. Because the staff of inspectors

Session 1971.-151

has been reduced by one-third it means that the two remaining inspectors who operate in the north-eastern part of Victoria and in Gippsland are now required to cover the Western District.

I direct the attention of the Minister of Agriculture to the fact that if a disease known as American foul brood is allowed to spread through lack of supervision it will be disastrous for the honey industry. I trust that the Minister will reconsider his decision not to replace the inspector who retired.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North). -I direct the attention of the Minister of Water Supply to the need for the Government to provide immediate assistance to the Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage Trust in relation to interest payments. In all fairness, I point out that during his short term in office the Minister has already visited Geelong and is aware of the problem, which had been brought to the notice of the previous Minister by myself, and my colleagues, the honorable member for Geelong, the honorable member for Bellarine, and other local members.

Recently the trust has informed ratepayers that in spite of the fact that they are paying almost double the rates charged in the neighbouring cities of Ballarat and Melbourne, many rate obligations this year will be double those of last year. This has been caused by the reformed municipal valuation system operating

this year in Geelong. Whilst this municipal rating matter is beyond the jurisdiction of the Minister, I point

out to the honorable gentleman that an immediate favourable decision bv

him would be a great relief to rat~payers' over-all water debts. Therefore, in relation to the inquiry being carried out by the Minister at present, on which a decision is expected to be

made within the next few months,

4154 Adjournment. (ASSEMBLY. J Adjournment.

I ask the honorable gentleman to expedite his decision to assist the ratepayers of Geelong.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The matter raised by the honorable member for Morwell will be braught to the attention of the Minister far Lacal Gavernment.

In regard to the matter raised by the honarable member for Greensbaraugh, I am aware that unfartunately some trains 'On the Greensborough line have been cancelled. The railways regret this, but it seems that there is a shartage 'Of guards. The hanarable member may have noticed that the Railways Commissioners are seeking to bring guards fram the cauntry ta alleviate the shartage and are praviding them with housing accammodatian. This prablem is nat peculiar ta Victaria. New Sauth Wales has 'experienced similar difficulties. It may be that in the future it will be passible ta run trains withaut guards, but at present the trains need guards and, therefare, every effart is being made ta 'Obtain them ta maintain services.

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).I shall bring ta the natice 'Of the Minister 'Of Agriculture the matter raised by the honarable member far Deer Park.

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister 'Of Educatian) .-The hanarable member far Brunswick East raised three matters, the first 'Of which was the rebuilding 'Of the Spensley Street Primary Schaal. This project occupie~ a high priarity an the department's building pragramme, but unfortunately the department has ta rebuild three inner suburban schoals, namely, the Princes Hill High School, the Col:. lingwaad High Schoal and the Spensley Street Primary Schaal. All are castly prajects an which much time has had ta be spent On detailed planning. It was nat passible ta adapt a standard design fram 'Outer suburban schaols because 'Of the limited space available.

The second point raised by the hanarable member related ta the provision of equality of educational 'Opportunity. I suggest that the hanorable member should look at the magnificent new high schaal just campleted at Richmond. An even more magnificent high schoal is being built at South Melbourne at a cost of more than $1.5 millian. In the days when the honorable m'ember was an avid histary student at the Melbourne High Scho'Ol 'Only 23 per cent of those wha commenced at farm I stayed an ta qualify for their Leaving Certificate. This year the figure would be 70 per cent. Last year the top matriculatian student came fram 'One of the narth suburban schoals, namely, the Merrifield High Schaal.

Mr. BORNSTEIN .-Has the Minister read The Myth of Equality, by Tom Raper?

Mr. THOMPSON.-Yes, but the authar did nat have experience of days when there was abs'Olutely na equality of oppartunity. Thase who have had Ithat experience wiH realize the great progress that has been made in Victoria in recent years.

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister 'Of Water Supply) .-1 appreciate the reasan far the honarable member far Geelong North jaining the hanarable members far Bellarine and Geelang, and the Hanarable O. G. Jenkins, 'One 'of the representatives of Sauth-Western Province in another place, in making strong representatians to me since I have been Minister of Water Supply regarding interest rates which apply ta the Geelang Wa terworks and Sewerage Trust.

As the hanarable members know, I discussed this matter with members of the trust at Geelang on 22nd J anuary. They also know that the Deputy Chairman 'Of the State Riyers and Water Supply Cammissian has spent a great deal of time in the preparatian 'Of a 40-page submissian ta the Treasury. The submission relates nat

Resignation of the Honorable [23 MARCH, 1971.] R. J. Hamer, E.D., M.L.C. 4155

only to interest rates, but al~o to depreciation of assets and redemption of loans in so far as those matters are applicable to urban and rural undertakings. The submission is being studied by the Treasury, which will ultimately reach a decision on the matter. I am doing my best to expedi te the decision in order to relieve the ratepayers of Geelong of this burden of interest.

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-1 inadvertently omitted to reply to the question asked by the honorable member for Broadmeadows concerning a recent disturbance at Glenroy High School. The case involves a needlework teacher who has not received a formal course of teacher training. The department believes that she is qualified to make a useful contribution at the school. I remind the honorable member that if the staff of universities went on strike because of the failure of lecturers to undergo a course in teacher training, there would not be one university open today.

The motion was agr~ed to. The House adjourned at 10.54 p.m.,

until Tuesday, March 23.

IIltgis!atiut C!!uunti!. Tuesday, March 23, 1971.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett) took the chair at 4.54 p.m., and read the prayer.

RESIGNATION OF THE HONORABLE R. J. HAMER,

E.D., M.L.C. The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W.

Garrett).-I have to announce that 1 have received the foHowing message from His Exc'ellency the 'Governor: -

Dear ~r. President,

GOVERNMENT HOUSE, MELBOURNE.

17th ~arch, 1971 ..

I am enclosing a copy of a letter of resignation from his seat in the Legislative

Council submitted to me today by the Honorable R. J. Hamer, E.D., together with a copy of my acknowledgment to him.

In accordance with the provisions of section VIII. of The Constitution Act ~r. Hamer's seat in the Legislative Council became vacant on 17th ~arch, 1971, being the day upon which his resignation was received by me.

Yours sincerely, ROHAN DELACOMBE,

Governor.

The Honorable R. W. Garrett, A.F.C., A.E.A., ~.L.C.,

President of the Legislative Council, Parliament House, ~elbourne, Vic. 3000.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-The two letters to which His Excellency referred in his communication to me are as foHows:-

Dear ~r. Hamer,

GOVERNMENT HOUSE, MELBOURNE.

17th ~arch, 1971.

I acknowledge that I have this day received your resignation from your seat in the Legislative Council.

In accordance with the provisions of section VIII. of The Constitution Act your seat in the Legislative Council became vacant on 17th ~arch, 1971, being the day upon which your resignation was received by me.

Yours sincerely, ROHAN DELACOMBE,

Governor.

The Honorable R. J. Hamer, E.D., ~inister for Local Government, Local Government Department, 61 Spring Street, ~elbourne, Vic. 3000.

His Excellency,

61 SPRING STREET,

MELBOURNE, VIC. 3000. 17th ~arch, 1971.

~ajor Genera'! Sir Rohan Delacombe, K.C.~.G., K.C.V.O., K.B.E., C.B., D.S.O., K.St.J.,

Governor of V'ictoria, Government House, ~elbourne, 3004.

Your Excellency, I have the honour to submit to you my

resignation from my seat in the Legislative Council of Victoria for the province of East

4156 . The [COUNCIL.] Ministry.

Yarra. I desire to offer myself as a candidate for the vacant seat of Kew in the Legislative Assembly, and it seems desirable that I should resign my own seat now in order to facilitate a conjoint election for both seats.

I should like to thank you for the great understanding and friendship which you have alw!lYs shown to the Legislative Council durmg your term as Governor of this State and to say how much this has been appre~ ciated by each member of the Council especially of course by the Ministers serving in the Council whose duties have brought them into close and continual contact with vou.

Yours sincerely, R. J. HAMER,

Minister for Loca'l Government.

THE MINISTRY. The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER

(Minister of Agriculture) (By leave). -I have to announce to the House that the Minister of Public Works, the Honorable Murray Byrne, has been appointed Deputy Leader of the Government in the Legislative Council and that the Honorable Alan Hunt has been appointed Minister without Portfolio and will act as Assistant Chief Secretary and Assistant AttorneyGeneral. I should like to congratulate Mr. Byrne and Mr. Hunt on their elevation to their respective positions. Mr. Byrne's ability in this House is well known to honorable members. I am sure that Mr. Hunt will prove to the House that he has the ability to be an outstanding .Minister. He has demonstrated his ability in debate over a long period of time and has proved himself to be an able member. I trust that both Mr. Byrne and Mr. Hu~t will enjoy a long, pleasant and fruItful association with this House.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) (By leave). -On be:half of the Labor Party, I should lIke to offer congratulations to Mr. Byrne and Mr. Hunt. Members of my party join with the Minister of Agriculture in wishing both honorable gentlemen a happy association ~ith the House, although we do not wIsh them a long association with this Chamber as members of the governing party. It seems that as

the years pass the Government is leaning more and more upon the Labor Party in its choice of ,Ministers. The two honorable gentlemen may now attend to their tasks.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province) (By leave) . -I desire to join with the Leader of the House and Mr. Galbally in congratulating the Honorable Murray Byrne and the Honorable Alan Hunt on their promotion. Mr Byrne, who has held his portfolio for only a short while, is being nicely trained by honorable members. He now occupies the hot seat which seems to have a hole in it. I hope he will be able to plug the hole carefully and that he will continue to occupy the seat for some time. If, however, the honorable gentleman undertakes a journey, I hope he goes farther in this Chamber and does not disappear out of the House. Members of the Country Party have had many little battles with Mr. Hunt across the Chamber in the past. In future, we shall have to speak to him a little louder and in doing so, Mr. President, I hop~ we shall not incur your displeasure, and that you will not hear what we say.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-My hearing is very good Mr. Swinburne. '

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-J have noticed that, Mr. President. We join with the Leader of the House and Mr. GalbaUy in wishing Mr. Byrne and Mr. Hunt well, although I cannot say that we wish them a long term of office. I assure the honorable gentlemen' that we wi1'1 keep them alive and interested during their term as Ministers.

The PRESIPENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-I congratulate Mr. Murray Byrne and Mr. Hunt on their elevation to their new positions. Both honorable gentlemen have demonstrated their abilities in this Chamber over a long period, and I assure them that I hope they are here for a long time. I wish them all the best during their terms of office.

The Ministry. [23 MARCH, 1971.] Joint Sitting of Parliament. 4157

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Miniister of Public Works) (By Leave). -I thank you, Mr. President, my Leader and the Leaders of the other parties for their kind and generous remarks about Mr. Hunt and me. I hope I am conscious of my responsibilities in my new position and to this House. I also hope the House will be tolerant with me, as yet an inexperienced and new Minister. All honorable members are aware of the remarkable traditions of this Council and of the wonderful spirit of cooperation which enables its members to debate fairly and openly all Bills and motions to an extent that is not possible in any other legislature in Australia. I hope I can effectively uphold the traditions of this Chamber and that I shall receive co-operation and assistance to the degree enjoyed by both Mr. Thompson and Mr. Hamer.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister without Portfolio) (By leave) .-1 thank you, Mr. President, the Leader of the House, Mr. Galbally and Mr. Swinburne for your congratulations and kind remarks. One must have mixed feelings on suddenly moving into the Ministry, as I certainly have; but primarily I regard it as an opportunity to be of further and more effective service to the community in which we live and work. Certainly, I shall try to the best of my ability to give that service.


This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of State Development), was read a first time.


This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture), was read a first time.

SNOWY MOUNTAINS ENGINEERING CORPORATION

(VICTORIA) BILL. This Bill was received from the

Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. V. O. DICKIE (M'inister of State Development), was read a first time.

JOINT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT. VICTORIA INSTITUTE OF COLLEGES.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-I have received the following letter from the Minister of Education: -

12th March, 1971. Dear Mr. President,

Section 7 of the Victoria Institute of Colleges Act 1965 provides that three members of the Council shall be Members of th,e Parliament of Victoria who have been recommended for appointment by a joint sitting of the members of the Legislative Council and the Legislative Assembly conducted in accordance with the rules adopted for the purpose by the members present at the sitting. Messrs. A. W. Taylor, E.D., M.P., T. C. Trewin, M.P., and C. T. Edmunds, M.P., were appointed under this section and their term of office expires on the 7th June, 1971.

I should be grateful if you would arrange for a joint sitting of the Members of the Legislative Council and the Legislative Assembly to recommend three members for appointment to the Council of the Victoria Institute of Colleges for the four-year term commencing on the 8th June, 1971.

Yours truly, L. H. S. THOMPSON

Minister of Education.

UNIFORM BUILDING REGULATIONS.

MELBOURNE CITY COUNCIL: BUILDING PERMITS.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne N orth Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Have any buildings been commenced in the City of Melbourne without a building permit first being issued in accordance with the Uniform Building Regulations; if so(i) how many buildings are currently under construction for which no permits have been issued, and is this an infringement of the Local Government Act 1958; and (ii) what are the reasons for the non-issue of building permits?

4158 . Questions [COUNCIL.] on Notice.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-T~e Melbourne City Council has supphed the foHowing answer:-

No building in the City of Melbourne is constructed without permission and a'll are constructed strictly in accord with the Uniform Building Regulations, including all structural requirements, and are subject to strict control and inspection. Since a building application has not been properly ~ade until all information is submitted, and smce the complexity of multi-story ferro-concrete or reinforced concrete buildings requires the submission progressively of detailed and separate data from the architect, builder and a number of sub-contractors, a full permit could not be is'Sued until all this information is available and the design and associated computations checked. Such action would involve protracted and unnecessary delay which would be most costly to the builder and owner, and since no danger or lowering of standards is involved, nor the requirements of the regulations or awards of the referees can be circumvented, progressive permits are given for those portions of the structure for which all information has been received and for which the design and computations have been checked. This has been the practice for many year! and all multi-story buildings have been treated in this manner.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. COLLINGWOOD EDUCATION CENTRE.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourn'e Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

(a) Is he aware that it is now ten years since representations were first made concerning the rebuilding of the Cromwell Street Primary School and the Vere Street High School, COllingwood?

(b) When will rebuilding commence?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-The answers are-

(a) Yes.

(b) Although the Public Works Department has already been asked to prepare final sketch plans and estimates for the Collingwood Education Centre which includes primary and post-primary facilities, it is not possible at this stage to indicate precisely when rebuilding will commence.

It is anticipated construction will be in stages with priority being given to postprimary facilities.

PRIMARY AND SECONDARY SCHOOLS IN DOUTTA GALLA PROVINCE.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the MiniS'ter 'Of Public Works-

Further to the answer given to question No.3 asked in this House on Tuesday, the 9th instant-

(a) Are any State scheol buildings, either primary or secondary (or additio~s to same) affected' if so what are the detaIls of those within the Do~tta Galla province?

(b) What cuts (if any) are being made in the provision of ser:vices, site work~, &c., previously agreed to, m any of the pnmary or secondary State schools within the Doutta Galla P.rovince?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public W'orks).-The answers are-

There has been no reduction to the works programme associated with school buildings, the provision of services or site works, &c. However, maintenance works have been temporarily suspended as the funds available for this purpose this financial year are fully committed. It is expected that the normal programme of maintenance will resume in the next financial year.

STRIKES BY SECONDARY TEACHERS.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

How many man-days have been lost by secondary teachers due to teacher strikes during 1970 and 1971 (to date) respectively?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works).-The answer is-

Returns from schools show 8,314 mandays work lost by secondary teachers due to teacher strikes during 1970, and 1,429 man-days so far this year.

INJURIES TO STUDENTS: LIABILITY OF TEACHERS.


(a) What is the legal liability of school teachers for injuries suffered by students who are under their charge when off school premises and on recognized school excursions?

(b) Are teachers in charge of students under such circumstances covered by any insurance against liability for injuries su(fered by such students?


(c) Have any teachers been held personally liable for such injuries to students during the years 1966 to 1970 inclusive; if so, how many cases have occurred and what has been the amount of liability in each case?


(a) The legal liability of school teachers for injuries suffered by students who are under their charge when off school premises and on recognized school excursions is the same as their liability while on school premises. Damages may be awarded against a teacher on account of injury to a pupil if it can be proved that the injury occurred because of the negligence of the teacher.

(b) No. In such circumstances the teacher would be regarded as on official duty. In all such cases in recent years the State of Victoria has been joined with the teacher and the teacher has received full legal support from the State legal authorities.

Because there may be some cases where teachers are acting in a voluntary capacity on excursions not recognized as official, the Education Department has taken out a public liability indemnity policy which covers teachers against claims arising from their voluntary duty on such excursions or as supervisors of school crossings. This policy has been in force for nine years, but no payments have been made under it.

(c) Summaries of departmental records do not indicate in all cases whether the injury occurred when the pupil was off school premises. There are no cases during 1966-70 in which the teacher has been held personally liable for injury at sport or on excursions.

Claims for damages have been made in two cases of injury at sport but these have not been heard. In each of these the State of Victoria has been joined with the teacher who will, if necessary, have full legal support from the State.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) (By leave). -I initiated this question, and 1 am grateful for the information. I do not know h'Ow Mr. Clarke's name was used, unless we both asked the same question.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) (By leave) .-The question was composed and asked by myself. Mr. Tripovich may have been thinking along similar lines, but it is my question.

GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS AND INSTRUMENTALITIES.

LOCATION OF DEPARTMENT OF STATE DEVELOPMENT AND LIQUOR CONTROL COMMISSION.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of State Development-

In respect of the Department of State Development and the Liquor Control Commission-

(a) Where is the present location and, in the event that it has been changed recently, when did the change take place and why?

(b') Who owns the premises and, if leased by the Government, for what term and at what rent?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of State Development) .-The answers are-

Premises at 232 Victoria Parade, East Melbourne, have been leased from Baroid Pty. Ltd. and Chandler Construction (Vic.) Pty. Ltd. to provide adequate and more suitable accommodation for the Liquor Control Commission and to enable the establishment of the newly created Department of State Development. The transfer of the Division of State Development from 1 Macarthur Street, Melbourne, is necessary: to enable additional space to be made avallable to the Ministry of Social Welfare.

The Liquor Control Commission occupied the space provided for its purposes at 232 Victoria Parade, East Melbourne, on 22nd February, 1971, and the Division of Industrial Development and other divisions of the Department of State Development will occupy accommodation in the building in the early part of April, 1971.

It is not the usual practice to divulge details of lease arrangements but the Minister of Public Works would be prepared to make this information available to the honorable member if he so. desires.

VICTORIAN RAILWAYS. SUNDAY SERVICES.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Can the Minister of Transport advise the approximate date of the cancellation of Sunday trains?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answer is-

There is no proposal to cancel Sunday trains, and the Minister would be interested to know who is spreading such rumours.

4160 Questions [COUNCIL.] on Notice.

It is, of course, fair to point out that the railways are not committed forever to particular time tables and they do make changes from time to time. In addition, the Passenger Services Co-ordination Committee, set up by the Ministry of Transport, is concerned to rationalize transport services. I understand that the Committee is considering a proposal to discontinue the rail service on the Upfield line on Sundays. In this event, transport would be provided by tramlbus co-ordinated services. As the honorable member will know, trams run close to this line for a great part of the journey, and this type of service would be similar to that already operating between Melbourne and Upfield on Sunday evenings.

Apart from the matters mentioned it is again repeated that no general cancellation of Sunday trains is proposed.

l\1ELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS.

COWDEROY STREET, ST. KILDA, DRAIN.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Concerning the Cowderoy Street drain at St. Kilda, when will words be translated into action?

The Hon. (Minister of answer is-

G. L. CHANDLER Agriculture) .-The

An effective solution to the problem is necessarily associated with the whole future of the West St. Kilda foreshore, the siltation of the boat harbour and the periodic deposit of seaweed in this area. Discussions are proceeding between the departments involved and the St. Kilda council to find an over-all solution in the light of the proposals made by the joint committee which investigated the position.

DEPARTMENT OF STATE DEV,ELOPMENT

CLOSURE OF FLOUR MILL AT KERANG.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) asked the Minister of State Development-

Will he lay on the table of the Library the files relating to the negotiations between the Department of State Development, the Borough of Kerang, Lake Flour Mills pty. Ltd., the Robin Hood Flour Milling Co. and the Victorian Flour Millers Council, -and concerning the establishment and closure of the Robin Hood flour mill at Kerang?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of State Development).-The answer is-

The relevant files in the case, three in number, are now in the hands of the Librarian.

FLEMINGTON RACECOURSE. USE AS SCHOOL SPORTS AREA.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

Is the Minister of Education aware that members of the Victoria Racing Club Committee are looking more favourably at the proposal to make a section of the Flemington racecourse available as a sports area for students of the Flemington High School; if so, will he endeavour to expedite the loan of this land?


Yes. The Minister of Education has been advised that the Victoria Racing Club Committee authorized the Victoria Racing Club secretary and racecourse manager to confer with school authorities. It is hoped that suitable arrangements can be made without intervention by the Minister or the Education Department.

TEACHERS TRIBUNAL. MINISTERIAL DISCUSSIONS WITH

VICTORIAN SECONDARY TEACHERS ASSOCIATION.


On what dates from 1st January, 1970, to the present day has the Minister of Education discussed with the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association-(i) the reform of the Teachers Tribunal; and (ii) control by the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association of entry of teachers into the Secondary Division?


The Minister of Education has met representatives of the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association fourteen times since the 1st January, 1970, as shown below. During these discussions various matters of


policy were discussed and the reform of the Teachers Tribunal and control of entry played a prominent part in these discussions:-

Thursday, 5th March, 1970. Tuesday, 28th April, 1970. Wednesday, 15th July, 1970. Friday, 14th August, 1970. Wednesday, 26th August, 1970. Wednesday, 16th September, 1970. Wednesday, 23rd September, 1970. Thursday, 8th October, 1970. Tuesday, 20th October, 1970. Tuesday, 22nd December, 1970. Tuesday, 26th January, 1971. Thursday, 25th February, 1971. Friday, 12th March, 1971. Thursday, 18th March, 1971.

EDUCATION. GRANTS TO REGISTERED SCHOOLS.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

Concerning assistance in cash or kind to registered private schools-

(a) What was the total cost of assistance (other than financial grants) proposed for the current financial year?

(b) Was the programme cut as a result of the Premier's economy proposals; if so(i) by what percentage; and (ii) what are the details?

(c) What was the total amount of financial grants provided for this financial year, and have any cuts been made; if so, by what amounts?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works).- The answers are-

( a) $2· 929 million. (b) No. (c) $6·245 million. No cuts made.

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. "COACH SPECIAL BREW" DRINK.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of State Development-

What liquid ingredien1ts are used in the product "Coach", manufactured in conjunction with the Courage brewery?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of State Development).-The answer is-

The Minister 'of Health is not in 'a position to disclose ,the formulation of "Coach Special Brew" which is a trade secret. The main liquid ingredients are water, a liquid

malt beverage and flavouring essences. The whole of the product is adjusted to contain less than 2 per cent proof spirit.

As the Minister bas :already stated, this product conforms !to the appropriate pro .. visions of the Food and Drug Standards Regulations 1966.

PROBATE DUTY ACT 1970. PROCLAMATION.

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL (Western Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Has the Government proclaimed the Probate Duty Act 1970; if not, when will it be proclaimed?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The an .. swer is not available at the moment. I understand that the Premier has the matter under consideration, and I will supply the answer as soon as possible.,

COUNTRY ROADS BOARD. CLIFTON HILL-CRAIGIEBURN FREEWAY.


(a) When will work commence on the 'proposed freeway between Bell Street, Coburg, and Clifton Hill?

(b) How many homes in the area bounded by Stewart, Nicholson ,and Victoria streets and the Merri Creek will be affected .by ,the proposed clover leaf construction?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-The answers are-

(a) The Country Roads Bo'ard is carrying out preliminary investigations inlto the route of a freeway from Clifton Hill to Craigieburn. At this stage there 'are no proposals for the commencement of construction.

(b) The location and layout of the freeway in this vicinity has not been fixed and it is not possible at this stage :to state how many homes will be affected.

HOSPITALS AND CHARITmS COMMISSION

PROVISION OF FUNDS FOR INSTITUTIONS.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province).-I wish to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing the

4162 Hospitals and Charities [COUNCIL.] Commission.

failure of the Government to provide 'adequate funds towards the maintenance and capital expenditure of hospitals and institutions subsidized by the Hospitals and Charities Commission.

App~oval of the proposed discussion was indicated by the required number of members rising in their places, as specified in Standing Order No. 53.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE . (North-Eastern Province). - Mr. President, J am fully aware of the grave problems facing hospitals and other institutions and the citizens who require their services for their health. At the outset, without any equivocation I wish to lay at the feet of the Government of the State the blame for the deplorable position that exists. As I shall prove to the House, while the Government makes everyone academically better off, the sick, the weak, the maimed, the blind, and the aged fall by the wayside. The Country Party has the greatest respect and appreciation for the manner in which members of committees of managements 'Of hospitals, institutions, and ambulance services throughout the State, and members of the Hospitals and Charities Commission, carry out their duties within the financial restrictions imposed by the Government.

Many institutions in this State come within the ambit of the m'otion. I do not intend to canvass all of them, and I shall leave debate on the various sections to members of my party, and any other honorable members who may wish to speak. The main problem is the serious financial situation facing hospitals throughout the State. They are unable to pay their bills, and are unable to collect various outstanding accounts for a number of reasons. As members are aware, there are problems associated with accident cases, workers compensation cases, and pensioner, patients. Consequently, hospital committees are in the deplorable position of not being able to

pay their bills. One of the worst features is that the hospitals owe this money in the towns in which they are si tua ted. They owe money to the butcher, the baker, the grocer, and others who provide services in their own community and who are least able to bear the burden. Hospitals for the aged, benevolent homes, children's homes, ambulance services, and various organizations which are rendering service under subsides provided by the Hospitals and Charities Commission to supplement the work of committees of management are in a similar position.

The problem facing these services is financial. Of course, the Minister will assert that they are not alone in this. Members of the Country Party realize this, but they believe that the care of the people's health and medical services should be one of the first charges on the community. From childhood to old age, there is a great need for assistance by State institutions. However, these institutions are not only unable to pay their bills but are also unable to provide services to the community as they should be provided. Anyone associated with the welfare of people in Victoria, such as those who care for the aged, is aware of, the great delay that takes place in getting an aged person into a home of any kind in the State today. "fhe committees of management of various institutions are in a deplorable financial position, as sta ted in the press this morning and this evening. The committees claim that they will be able Ito carry on for only a few more months unless they rec'eive some assistance. The same problem exists in the benevolent hom'es, which also have long waiting lists.

While Ithe Government may be spending a lot of m'Oney 'On 'educati'On, particularly fior young people to help them in the future, a large segment 'of the child populat'i'On'is not receiving any care for the ailments which they suffer and which wiU affect them

Hospitals and Charities [23 MARCH, 1971.] Commission. 4163-

in the years Ito come. Which is mare important-the heallth of th'e nation or the education of 'its people? The Governmrent 'Claims that itt 'is devoting 42 per cent, or thereabouts, of its income to education. It 'is clearly evident that the Governm'ent forgets those people who are in need of medical care when it allocates the State's funds. Of course, the Government's answer is rthalt it does not receive any money from the Commonweallth for thi'S, ~hat 'Or the other thing.

I wish t'O remind the House of the period before this Government came into power, and the responsibilities which were borne by the Governments of that era. The Government preceding the present Libera'l Government was the Labor Government headed by the late Honorable John Cain, and its predecessor was the McDonald Government headed by the then Honorable John McDonald. If one traces the history of the present problem back to that time, 'One finds the foundation of what was accepted to be the resp'onsibility for the care of the health of the people. There have been two eras since then, marked by the introduction of Tattersall Consultations to Victoria and the establishment 'Of the Totalizator Agency Board. These were supposed to be the saviours of the hospital finances.

I shaH quote 'som'e figures to illustrate to the House the difference between the earlier era and the present time as regards the responsibility borne by the Government concerning health and sickness. In 1951 for the first time the State Budget exceeded $200 million. Today the Budget amounts to almost $1,000 million. Of the 1951 amount, the Government of the day allocated for health services just on 9 million pounds-$18 million-or about 9 per cent of the Budget total. Today, leaving aside the funds provided by the TO'tal'izator Agency Board and Tattersalls-they amount to $19,748,033-the balance is approximately $40

mini'On out 'Of current revenue, which amounts to $982,588,318, or 4 per cent. So from a figure of 9 per cent, which was little enough in those days out of the meagre amount available, the revenue of the State now being allocated to those -institutions covered by the Hospitals and Charities Commission's subsidies has been reduced to 4 per cent.

This is not a fair allocation. Apart from the contributions by TattersaUs and :the Totarliza:tor Agency Board, the allocation 'Of State finance to the Hospi'talls and Charities Commission should have been mainta'ined at the previous level. If the State was providing such an amount, one would consider that s'Ome real c'Onsideration was being given to the problems which are being brought to the attention of the House tonight, but the Government has continued, as I have stated previously, to pull the mat from under the Hospitals and Chanties Commission and whittle away the annual grants made avaHable to it, as c'Ontributions from Tattersalls and the Totalizator Agency Board gradually increase. Today, the Government grants are only half the amount which should be made available under the old formula which was accepted as being the responsibility of the State.

The Oountry Party believes that if the Government examined them broadly, the problems confronting the State in relation to hospitals would soon be solved. The Hospitals and Charities Commissi'On cannot be held responsible for the present situati'On. Within the limits of finance which is available to the commission, I believe it is doing a wonderful job. The commission does not allocate funds; it does the best it can with what is allocated to it-and the Government must accept the fact that it is responsible for providing a sum which is sufficient to enable unstinted care to be given to people who are ill.

Homes and other institutions for children in this State are unable to provide adequate accommodation;


hospitals do not receive an allocation for capital expenditure wh'ich is sufficient to enable them to carry out works programmes; and, worst of all, as more hospitals are built, maintenance problems grea'tly increase. Since TattersaUs and the Totalizator Agency Board have been operating in Victoria, funds available t'O 'hospitals from appeals to charity have decreased; moreover, most people now insure against medical and hospital expenses through hO'spilta1 benefit associations, and feel that they sh'Ould not have to suppor.t instituti'Ons by making d'Onations.

Despite the fact that m'Oney collected from appea'ls is becoming less each year, a study of annual rep'Orts of the Hospi'ta'ls and Charities Cqmmission reveals that much of the money which is received from appeals i'S allocated for capital works and that little 'Of 'it 'is expended 'On maintenance. In discussing the Peninsula hospital, Mr. Ward has stated that the Commonwea'hh Government is at fault because it does not pay for patients who are pensi'Oners, but I believe that ,to be only a min'Or ractor in the development 'Of the situati'On. The maintenance 'of our hospitals is the mOist important facltor, and problems associated with it must be overcome. The Government has shown that it cannot adequately deal with problems 'in connecti'On With the medical care 'Of the people 'Of Victoria.

The Leader of the House has said that there appears to be no alternative but to' increase hO'spital 'charges, but I remind the House that the more hospital fees 'are 'increased, the less is the ability lof p:eople to' pay them. At present people who have received hospital treatment find that they are unable to pay their accounts and later receive a reimbursement from a hospital benefits association. It is worthy of note that the Wangaratta hospital insists that its patients produce their hospital benefits association book before admitting them '1'0 the hO'spital. The hospital colleCIts 'the refund for the patient. It was never expected, that such a

The Hon. I. A. Swinburne.

system would be introduced, but it has had to be done in an attempt to solve the financial problems of the hospital. A patient is forced to bring his book, for fear that he will not be admitted, and the Country Party feels most strongly that such a situation should never have been permitted to arise.

Many patients who are in hospital are not able to receive hospital benefits,' because their illness or injury has arisen from, say, a motor car accident, which is covered by insurance, or an injury at work, which is covered by workers compensation. Payment for hospital treatment in such cases has to be collected by the hospitals. Delays are involved, and these increase the financial difficulties that hospitals now face. The Country Party has often advocated the establishment of a fund which would enable hospitals to be paid pending collection of debts owing in connection with workers compensation, and so on, but, of course, the Government has done nothing about it.

In introducing Tattersalls in 1953, the Labor Party stressed that returns from it would greatly help hospital finances, and during the first year of operation of the consultation that proved to be the case. However, upon the accession to office of the Bolte Government, the situation rapidly changed. As returns from Tattersalls increased, the amount of financial assistance afforded to hospitals decreased. That trend has continued in relation to Tattersalls, and the same situation ebtains with regard to returns received from the Totalizator Agency Board.

This position was never envisaged when these gambling operations were introduced to assist our hospitals. It is completely wrong of the Government to' collect these returns and to use them for purposes that were never intended. The Country Party is strongly opposed to this action of the Government.

Hospitals and Charities [23 MARCH, 1971.] Commission~ 4165

The Minister will remind the House that hospitals are conducted by committees of management, and that cannot be denied; in fact, I have been associated with such committees for many years and I acknowledge the splendid work that they have done, but it is obvious that they can no longer perform their functions unless they receive additional Government financial assistance.

Committees of management raise funds by appealing to charities, and, as I have already. said, funds .from this source have decreased. It is imperative that committees of management should be assisted financially.

Patients' fees are the only other source of income that hospitals have, and I again remind the House that an increase in hospital fees lessens the ability of the patient to pay. A person with means can pay his bill immediately and receive a quick reimbursement; a person without means cannot pay his bill, and cannot receive a, reimbursement; and many people who are committed to the purchase of homes, the educa tion of their children, and so on, simply cannot afford to pay high hospital bills and exist in a penniless state until they receive a reimbursement. The situation is deplorable, and the Country Party believes that the Government is completely responsible for it.

My party does not accept the Government's contention that this situation has been brought about solely by the fact that the Commonwealth Government has not met its respon .. sibility. My party realizes that the Commonwealth Government has a responsibility, and hopes that at some time it will measure up to it, but it is surely beyond argument that it is a primary responsibility of the Government to care for our sick, and that unless the Government is prepared to. meet this responsibility there will be no improvement in the situation. The health needs of the people of our community are paramount and unless the Government attends to them there will be great

distress. A much larger share of returns from Tatters~lls and the Totalizator Agency Board should be allocated to hospitals. The problems facing health services would then be reduced.

Unless the Government changes its attitude towards these services, the cit~zens in age groups ranging from childhood to old age will be in the deplorable position of being unable to receive the health services they require. Moreover, the committees of the various institutions will be in dire straits in their efforts to ,meet their responsibilities and pay their bills which are now mounting astronomically in every part of the State. The institutions have been carrying on a service which has been entrusted to them by the people. In the past the difference between their income and expenditure has been subsidized by the Government. However, the Government has failed to act reasonably in the present situation and it should be censured .for the reasons I have outlined.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (NorthWestern Province).-I support the motion moved by my Leader, who has fully covered and expressed the views of the Country Party on hospital finances. This is not a censure motion on the administration of individual Ministers, hospital managements or the Hospitals and Charities Commission, who have all carried out their duties in a sincere and earnest manner but have been successful only to a certain degree because the ready cash has not been available to them.

Nowadays the public is not donating generously to hospitals and charities because they feel that the funds are being or should be made available by the Government and that in the social services field the necessary finance should be provided by the Federal Government. The trend amongst y·oung people today is not to worry about the aged, but to think only that they should be receiving the benefits and privileges of education.-


Whichever party forms the Government, it has a duty to find the necessary finance for the various organizations to carry on these essential services. In travelling around the country, the conditions under which people are labouring are ,evident. Persons concerned with the "meals on wheels" schemes often speak of the conditions in the various homes which they visit. In these circumstances, one feels satisfied with one's own position but unhappy that a fellow man may be living in conditions of neglect and loneliness instead of being cared for.

If the Government has less finance available because of reduced income tax reimbursements from the Commonwealth Government, the burden should be spread over all ,fields of Government expenditure. Recently it was announced that expenditure cuts were necessary in all Government departments. The expenditure of the Hospitals and Charities Commission will be reduced along with others, but, because of pressures, the expenditure of the Education Department will not be affected. The Country Party is not against education because it realizes its value, but the expenditure cuts should be borne by all sections of the community, not by a select few.

Early in my Parliamentary career, hospitals were in a serious financial position, capital works were not being proceeded with and buildings were falling into disrepair. Members were constantly on the doorstep of the Minister of Health and the Hospitals and Charities Commission. Then the situation improved and capital works were undertaken. However, if maintenance is not kept up, the buildings will again deteriorate.

One hospital has advised me that as a result of increased wages and salaries it has -incurred a deficit of $23,000 for the first six months of 1970-71, that now, in the third quarter, the deficit has 'increased to $139,000, and that the hospital will ,finish the year w'ith a deficit of $163,000. Many members of hospital auxiliaries are

"t"he Hon. A. R. Mansell.

working night and day trying to induce people to make voluntary donations to their local hospital. The unwillingness of people to do this places great strains upon those trying to raise the money and in many cases they lose heart and .fall by the wayside. Fortunately, a majority are still working sincerely in assisting various charities.

Concerning increases in workers compensation premiums, an ambulance service has written to me in the following terms:-

We have been advised by our insurers that premiums have increased by 25 per cent for the above insurance.

We desire to point out that this is a crippling increase for an industry such as ours which cannot easily pass on increased operating costs. This rise together with a 78 per cent wage rise over the past five years will mean that 80 per cent of our expenditure is eaten up on staff wages and associated expenses. The ambulance service is struggling to provide an improved service to the public particularly to accident victims, but we find that the bulk of our income must go to staff expenses and is killing all hope of improving service by way of training, vehicles and equipment. If this trend continues there must by necessity be a reduction in the quality of service to the public.

Unless money is available from the Hospitals and Charities Commission or other auxiliaries, the present services will deteriorate and maintenance will suffer. It will cost far more in the future to replace worn out and broken down facilities.

The Government should re-examine the proposed restrictions on expenditure so that the load is spread equitably over all Government activities. Hospitals are faced with tremendous costs in providing special facilities for accident victims. The majority of accidents occur at weekends and it is thus necessary for hospitals to train sisters and attendants especially for accident work and to' have doctors in attendance purely to treat accident victims and other persons who might be badly affected by drink. Something should be done in this matter. A close examination may show that

H ospita/s 'and Charities (23 MARCH, 1971.] Commission. 4167

relief is possible. Unless the Government acts firmly and adopts a more sympathetic outlook to people in need, the situation will worsen.

It was interesting to hear Mr. Galbally last week refer to some of the problems in our community, particularly in regard to social services. A Ministry of Social Welfare has been estabHshed by the Government and various social welfare organizations are writing to members of Parliament requesting that municipalities should be made responsible for certain aspects of social welfare. Certain activities have been handed over to municipalities, and ratepayers are meeting the cost of these services out of their rates, a's well as meeting the cost of services through the Totalizator Agency Board, Tattersalls Consultations and their' income tax payments. Accordingly, they feel that they should not have to give freely to these charitable institutions.

The motion enable'S honorable members to express their opinions on this important subject, anc;l members of the Country Party strongly urge the Government to take action.

The HOD. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of State Development) .-It is <?bvious that Mr. Swinburne and Mr. Mansell appreciate the prob-lems in all fields; including the hospital field, and that all these problems revolve around the lack of finance. Whether the problems concern health, education, housing, or water conservation, they all arise because of prosperity and the greater demands being made on Governments. Although the IState is facing a crisis in hospitals and other health services, as Minister of Health for almost five years I find it hard to recall anyone year when a crisis did not exist in this field and demands were not beJng made on the Government for more funds than the Treasury was able to advance.

In the 'current' financial year, the Government has been burdened with the national wage increase of 6 per cent on all wages across the board. Some people believe that this means

only an increase in the over-all bill. However, wages and salaries represent about 85 per cent of all expenses and the price of raw materials and other supplies depends on the salary paid to the employee' who extracts the material or manufactures the article. Accordingly, salary increases have the greatest impact on the ability of institutions to carry on.

I cannot argue that hospitals are not facing a severe ·crisis. It is easy to be critical of what a Government is not doing-I would rather be arguing that case than defending what the Government is doing-but it is necessary to establish priorities. There is much that the Government would like to do, but it is confined to its own resources, and the same applies to each and every one of us as individuals.

I go along with the suggestion-I said this on many occasions when I was Minister of Health-that over the past decade the 'spotlight has been on education at the expense of other necessary services in our community.

The pressures of education continue and an amount in excess 'of 50 per cent of a Budget of more than $600 million is being expended on education. Running concurrently with that i's the increasing number of hospitals and health institutions throughout the State. As the numbers of such institutions increase, maintenance costs continue to rise astronomically, as they are rising in every area of the economy.

I shall go back only a decade. In 1961, the Government allocation to the Hospitals' and Charities Fund, including the contribution from the Totalizator Agency Board and Tattersall consultations, both of which Mr. Swinburne referred to, was £27,782,018. Tattersalls contributed

, the sum of $6,268,404, ·and the Totalizator Agency Board, which was in its embryo ' stage, contributed the amount of $1,913,614, a total of about $8.2 million of the sum of $27.782 million allocated by' the


Government to the Hospitals and Charities Fund. In 1970, the State's contribution was $58.869 million and this year it has risen to $72.84 million. Therefore, in ten years there has been an increase in the Government's contribution to the Hospitals and Charities Fund from $27.782 million to $72.840 million.

Mr. Swinburne commented on the contribution that Tattersalls was originally expected to make towards meeting the expense of operating Victorian hospitals. The bringing of Tattersalls to Victoria was a controversial issue. One of the arguments on which the proposition was sold to the Victorian community was that, over and above fees paid by patients, the moneys raised by Tattersalls would almost cover the cost of operating Victorian hospitals. Yet the Contribution by Tattersalls in 1961-1 shall go back only a decadeamounted to $6.268 million, and in 1970 the revenue from this source was $5,684,415-slightly less than ten years ago.

The operation of hospitals and other similar institutions in Victoria this year will cost a gross amount of $145 million. That expenditure has to be met by the Government contribution to the Hospitals and Charities Fund, by fees collected frOom private, intermediate and public patients, by reimbursements through hospital benefi ts funds-which is basically a Commonwealth responsibilityand, as Mr. Mansell pointed out, by a small and reducing voluntary contribution. As I said, this year it will cost the community at large the sum of $145 million to service the hospitals and other institutions. To meet that expenditure, the contribution from Tattersalls, which it was thought 10, 12 or 15 years ago would be manna from heaven, is still only $5,684,415.

The Totalizator Agency Board makes a substantial contribution to the Hospita'ls and Charities Fund. Again, at the time of its inception, it was stated that the Totalizator Agency Board would make a major

The Hon. V. O. Dickie. -

contribution towards meeting hospital costs. Its contribution has risen progressively from 1961, when it was in its embryo stage. In that year it contributed approximately $2 million, and last year its contribution was $14.063 million. That sum, plus the Tattersalls contribution of about $5.5 million, represents a total of about $20 million from those two gambling organizations. Together, they contribute about one-seventh or 14 per cent of the $145 million which is the estimated cost of operating hospitals and similar institutions in Victoria this year.

I point out that hospital fees have tended to remain static. In fact, when I was Minister of Health in 1966 fees were raised to their present levels of $10 a day for a public patient, $13.50 a day for an intermediate patient and $15.50 or $16 a day for a private patient. Of course, in the private patient field ,a hospital can charge more or less the fee that it decides. It is remarkable that although costs have risen so astronomically across the board in the past four or five years, hospital fees have not been increased. In 1966 when the fee for a public patient was increased to $10 a day naturally a great amount of criticism was levelled at the decision.

I emphasize that such a patient is charg~d only what he is able to pay. Therefore, honorable members should not imagine that because a patient is admitted to a public hospital and occupies a public bed he must pay $10 a day. Each patient is assessed and if, in the opinion of the assessor, he can pay $10 he does so. Consideration is given to such questions as Whether he is married, the 'number of children in the family and how much rental he pays for his home. If a person is not receiving the minimum wage-or what Used to be referred to as the basic wage-he does not pay anything. I stress that it is remarkable that hospital fees have not been increased for almost five years. The revenue raised from hospital fees plays a large part in meeting the total expenditure of $145 million which

Hospitals and Charities [23 MARCH, 1971.] Commission. 4169

the community has to find. Therefore, the Governm'ent is at present closely examining the aspect of fees.

The Han. J. W. GALBALLy.-That is a great solution!

The ·Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Whether Mr. Galbally likes it or not, co~ts have increased and fees must be paId.

It must be rem·embered that this year, when there was a 6 per cent increase in the national wage across the board, no contribution was received from the Commonwealth to help meet this additional. expense. Mr. Swinburne and Mr.. Mansell expressed criticism of the State Government despite the fact that they are members of a party which forms the coalition Government in Canberra and which is treating Victoria so shabbily. I should hope that their Commonwealth colleagues would be

. aware of the problems involved because they represent .areas represented by 'members of the Country Party in this State.

A Premiers Conference is to be held in Canberra on 5th April. Prior to the recent turmoil in Canberra, Victoria was not receiving a very sympa thetic hearing, but the Government hopes that following the Premiers Conference some Commonwealth assistance will be forthcoming to meet the 6 per cent increase in the national wage. If the Commonwealth does give the State financial help to meet rising costs, ·additional money will be available to assist hospitals. If the Government does not obtain Commonwealth money as hoped, naturally it will have to examine all avenues to try to raise finance to meet the deficit which it is now experiencing and which is having ·a damaging effect on hospitals. Until the outcome of the Premiers Conference is known, the Government 'is " holding its horses" on the question of hospital fees.

I consider that the Government has done a remarkable job in bringing the State to its present position of prosperity, bearing in mind that it has

had limited financial resources. As a Parliament we should all be bringing continual pressure to bear on our Commonwealth colleagues to take their full responsibility in the field of hospitals and health.

Mr. Swinburne commented that he considered the question of pensions to be only a minor probl~m. When I was Minister of Health In 1967, I had extracted the cost to Victoria of the supposed Commonwealth free hospital scheme for pensioners. It was then $28 million. Of course, this is a State scheme because hospitals are reimbursed by. the Commonwealth only $5 a day for pensioner patients. This payment used to be $3.40, but after pressure from Victoria it was raised to $5 and it has remained static at that figure for at least five years. Nevertheless, the daily in-patient bed costs for penSioners in Victorian hospitals have increased considerably. In 1964-65, they were $15.12; in 1965-66, $16.40; in 1966-67, $18.03; in 1967-68, ,$19.35; in 1968-69, $20.93; and in 1969-70, $23.53. I point out that 33 per cent of the patients in hospital today are pensioners.

Despite the fact that the cost of treating ,a pensioner is $23.53 a day, the Commonwealth Government contributes the princely sum of $5 a day. This means that the Victorian Government is subsidizing pensioners in Victorian hospitals to the extent of $18.53 a day. I have always maintained that pensioners are a Commonwealth responsibility. The Commonwealth Government was given this responsibility as the result of a referendum which decided that all social services should be a Commonwealth responsibility. Pensioners in Victorian hospi tals during this financial year will cost the State the sum of $30 million. Nevertheless, Mr. Swinburne expressed the opinion that pensions are a minor question.

I repeat that pensioners are a Commonwealth responsibility. This Government will fight the Commonwealth to ensure that it makes its contribution. If the Commonwealth

4170 Hospitals and Charities [COUNCn..] Commission.

were to give the State the sum of $30 million, Victorian hospitals would have no problems. I point out to members of the Country Party that members of both of our parties should jointly be trying to get this money from the Commonwealth. I invite them not to be critical of the Government because we both have the same master.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-This Government should accept its responsibility.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-It does. We realize that there is a crisis in the hospital field. It is not the first occasion on which there has been such a crisis, and there will continue to be crises in our hospitals. However, I am certain that in the community today there is no problem which cannot be resolved with money. This is strictly a question of finance.

On the question of priorities, I wholeheartedly agree that in the future the spotlight should be put more on health than on education. I trust that as a result of the Premiers Conference in a fortnight's time more funds will be made available to Victoria. I remind honorable members tha t la te last year hospitals were given an intermediate contribution by the Treasury of $3.837 million to help meet their salary problems. That has no relation to the problem of the 6 per cent wage increase which is' now belng faced.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-It is a . drop in the bucket.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Of course, it is. That is the tragedy. We speak of $30 million being minor and $3~837 being merely a drop in the bucket.

The Government must find these funds and make certain that all sections of Government responsibility are serviced. That is the price of prosperity. Today mediCal scien<;e is making amazing ·advances. By the turn 'of this cen~ury, a life span of three score years and ten will be

attained by most people in the community. The incidence of many diseases is being overcome, and this is causing heavier burdens to be placed on Governments, as it becomes necessary to look after greater numbers of aged people in the community. Ministers . of Health throughout the Commonwealth qlust face the problem of caring for them.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-It is their job.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Of course it is,· and it is the job' of Governments to look after all avenues of Government spending. I assure the House that the Government is aware of this problem and is looking at it closely. The Government is examining all a\i"enues whereby more money can be made available-it is only a matter of money-and I hope that after the forthcoming Premiers Conference the problems of hospitals throughout the State,' not 'only those in the country, will be overcome.

I pay tribute to the many' committees of management for the magnificent work 'they' have done in the most trying conditions. These committees are 'autonomous and in'earlier years were able to administer the hospitals within the finances raised by their fees. Today, the Common,;, wealth and States collectively are contributing 67.3 per cent of 'the over-all cost of running our hospital system. Therefore, whether we like it or not, Governments must intervene mote and m'ore in the field of hospital administration. I hope the. committees of management will never give up. They perform' a magnificent job and it is not right that these terrific pressures' shoulq . be plac~d ·1.lpon them. "

The Hon. LA. SWINBURNE.-It is a pretty poor state of. affairs. '

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.~I' agree. The Government is looking closely at the' pOSition, and' I hope 'a'n answer to' the problem will be forthcoming from the Premiers Confererice to be held' in a fortnight. ' .


The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) .-The terms of Mr. Swinburne's motion condemn the Government for its failure to provide adequate funds towards the maintenance and capital expenditure of hospitals and institutions subsidized by the Hospitals and Charities Commission. The debate has ranged a little wider than those terms, but I propose to relate my remarks to the motion. I have listened with great interest to the Minister speaking on behalf of the Government on this issue. If there is any body that can claim to have led the inflationary trends in this community it is the Liberal Government in Victoria and the composite Liberal-Country Party Government in Canberra.

When this Government came into office, the Premier stated that every income earning department must meet its own costs. Honorable members will recall that the Housing Commission increased its rentals and the Victorian Railways increased freight rates. This Government led the march towards cost inflation and its confreres in Canberra adopted the same tactics. Reference has been made to the 6 per cent wage increase, but it is of no use talking about the base wage rate in 1955 as compared with the wage of today. I shall refer to the average weekly income because the 1955 situation followed a series of wage agreements made outside the court, and the wages were far above the average wage. Overtime earnings had also to be taken into consideration, so I shall refer to the average weekly income.

In 1955-56 the average weekly income in Victoria was approximately $38. In 1960-61 the average wage equivalent was $47. The source of my information is the 1962-63 report of the Department of Labour and National Service. The department's summary of statistics in December, 1970, indicates that the average weekly income was then $77-exactly twice the figure for 1955.

The Minister made great play on the question of wages in relation to costs, but Mr. Swinburne's motion refers to the costs of the Hospitals and Charities Commission. I shaU confine my remarks to that point. Page 88 of the report of the AuditorGeneral discloses that in 1955 the administrative costs of the commission were approximately $141,000. In 1960-61 that figure had increased to $317,000, and the comparative figure for the year ended 30th June, 1970, was only $643,867 out of a total of $60 million. It has been said that wages represent 80 per cent of the component cost of an article today, but I point out that 30 per cent of the component part is represented by transport alone.

The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON.-I thought the cost of transport was 12 per cent of the component part.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-No, it is equivalent to 30 per cent. It is the highest component part of any particular article.

The Minister quot'ed a figure from the year 1960-61. It was a good figure from the point of view of the Government because it indicated that at least some work was done in hospitals in that year. There was a great leap forward in hospitalization and the Government provided $18 miUion of a total cost of $27.6 million, which was a reasonable proportion. In 1955-56, the Government provided $10 million out of a total cost of $18 million, but in 1969-70 it provided only $35 million out of a total cost of $58 million. Mr. Swinburne is correct when he points out that the amount provided by the Government has become less and less in terms of purchasing power.

I advert now to hospitals. Honorable members have listened to the argument of the Government about the" bad boys" at Canberra. 'I should love to have been a fly on the wall when the State Premiers, particularly when they were all members of the Liberal Party, met the Federal Government at Canberra. In these meetings of Federal and State Treasurers the Federal men have w·iped the floor


with State Ministers. Why cannot the members of this Government discipline its own people in Canberra? Last week the Liberal Party disciplined a Prime Minister. Surely it can discipline a Treasurer occasionally.

In 1950, by making an annual payment of approxim,ately $6.50, I took out health and hospital insurance to provide a bed in an intermediate hospital ward. At present, a neighbour of mine is about to enter hospital, but it is not a matter of obtaining an intermediate hospital bed. As a consequence of the actions of this Government the number of intermediate beds has been reduced while the number of private beds has been increased. The neighbour to whom I referred will have to pay $140 a week. 'Her husband is insured with a lodge, from which he will receive a rebate 'Of $98 a week. Yesterday this person informed me that she and her husband would have to find $42 a week to make up the difference. She said to me, "God knows where it is coming from. I will worry about it later."

The figures I have given ,refer only to the cost of the hospital bed. No doubt most honorable members pay approximately $100 per annum for hospital benefits linsurance. I say "Good luck! We can afford to pay it. But how does a man on $50 a w'eek meet his hospital benefits commitments? " Again, this insurance extends for only thirteen weeks and will not cover a prolonged illness. Of course there is a need for a national health insurance scheme, but has this Government ever forced a discussion with the Federal Government on the introduction of a national hea'lth scheme? The cost load for decent hospital facilities cannot be carried unless there is a national health scheme.

If the Minister says that it will cost $30 million to care for pensioners in hospitals during the current year, how much would it cost if all pensioners in this; State in need

The Hon. J. M. Tripovich.

of hospital treatment could be admitted to. hospitals? There would not be sufficient hospital beds to cater for them. ' If the Government were to duplicate the facilities of, the Mount Royal. Special Hospital for the Aged, which is one of the finest geriatric institutions in Australia, they would be fined within a week and there would still be a waiting list.


The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Prior to the suspensi'On of the sitting, in discussing the mo:tion m'Oved by the Leader of the Country Party, which refers to' the failure of the Government to provide 'adequate funds towards the maintenance and capital expenditure of hospitals and institutions subsidized by the Hospitals and C'h~rities Commissfon, I was referring to the heavy costs faced by people in need of hospital treatment. When Ithe Minister of State Development was Minister of Health he quoted figures at 'length in an effort to' try to enc'Ourage m'Ore people to insure themselves against possible hospital fees t'O the point where at least they would be covered for the cost of a public bed if they had to enter a hospital. At that tim'e 57 per cent of the people who were insured for hospital fees were n'Ot sufficiently covered to meet the cost of a public bed and 30 per celllt 'Of the people actually occupying beds in public wards were not insured at all. The present-day figures are not much better, despite the honorable gentleman's efforts. Because of increased hospital costs 'and the failure 'Of the Government 'to meet its responsibHi'ties lin having a c'Onfrontation with the Federal Government, the cost load is being thrown more and more on to the fee-paying patients. This is the basis on which the motion is founded.

In h'is defence 'Of the Government, the Minister of State Development said that the Comm'onwealth Government ha's not met its obligations. Doubtless that is true, but the State


Government has failed to. do anything abo.ut it, even though both Go.vernments are 'Of the same political compl'exion. A special conference of the I;iberal Party should be convened to discuss Commonwealth-State relations. Un!ti'! recently every State Government was of a similar political complexion to the Federal GOV'e'rnment and despite the grizzles and protestations made in this House no complaints were made to the Federa'l Liberal Government.

I have told 'the State Government a dozen time'S that it is of no use defending itself against allegations of its inability 'to provide sufficient finance for hospitals by asking where the money is to come from. I admit that the Victorian Government will have to pay $15 million or $20 million a year in additional wages because of the 6 per cent increase in the national wage, bUlt a'S a result of that decision the Federal Government will receive an addi'Honal $67 million a year in increased taxation throughout Australia.

The Hon. G. J. NIcoL.-Mr. Tripovich should Itry to get some of ~hat additional money.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Mr. NicO'I should be saying that to. the Federal GO'vernment and not to' me. I have the highest regard for Dr. Lindell, the Chairman of the Hospitals and Charities Commission, for his ability both as a medical officer and in hospital management. A weak spot in the Government's administration of hO'spita'ls is that it i'S not providing advanced courses for hospital management trainees. An'Other criticism I have 'Of the Governm·ent concerning hospital management is that actual bed usage is badly balanced when compared with bed needs. Does the Government realize that the average need per thousand of popUllation is· four beds a year? Does the Government realize that there are 7,000 elderly people-m:any of them senile -living in private hO'spitals whose relatives 'are forced to' p'ay $70 and m'ore a week S'O that they might subsist in aU 'types 'of p'riva~ely run

homes for the aged? These people are increasing bed usage from four per thousand a year Ito a considerably larger number. Victims of motor car accidents are also causing a shortage of hospital beds. It is a fact of life that a certain number of hospital beds are set aside each week-end for road accident victims, and whilst this is unfortunate, it is also to be deplored.

On numerous occasions members of the Labor Party have told the Government that if it wants to obtain adequate labour in the public sector of the economy it 'must be prepared to pay wages equivalent to those paid in private enterprise. Until recently the salaries paid to· nurses and resident doctors were deplorable. Not long ago a resident doctor received less than $70 for working 110 hours a week in a hospital. Members of the Liberal Party did not complain about that. Only recently has the Government realized that it must pay rates equivalent to those applying in outside industry: to staff its hospitals. Resident doctors now receive approximately $107 a week, which is not a high salary. The wastage of trainee nurses is approximately 15 or 20 per cent in the first year and the total wastage over the full course of training is 57 per cent. Is this because nurses become disillusioned during their training? The time has long since passed when conditions of employment in hospitals could be based on the assumption that nursing is a Christian inspired task and therefore nurses should be prepared to work for low wages.

The Government will be faced with a debt of $20 million or $30 million to get rid of the honorary medical system, which was introduced when young doctors. thought it was a privilege to be permitted to practise on people who occupied. beds in public wards of hospitals. In the past sPecialists have given· up their time free of charge because they thought they had a responsibility to train young doctors, but those days have gone. . The Government did not recognize this position until it was forced to do. so.

4174 Hospitals and Charities . [COUNCIL.] . Commission.

Members of the Labor Party support the motion because we believe the Government should be censured for not facing up to its responsibilities in overcoming th~ problems being encountered by hospitals. The Labor Government was severely criticized for introducing Tattersall consultations to Victoria, but the present Government was not criticized when it established the Totalizator Agency Board. The contributions to hospital finances from Tattersall consultations is decreasing because this gambling Government established the Totalizator Agency Board. Revenue from Tattersall's is declining because of competition from the Totalizator Agency Board. Between now and Saturday week there will be at least fifteen race-meetings at which the Totalizator Agency Board will be operating. People cannot afford both to buy Tattersall's tickets and to bet with the Totalizator Agency Board.

The financial contribution made to hospitals by the Government has also been decreasing. I agree with Dr. Lindell that the States have gone about as far as they can in providing finance for hospitals. About three years ago in this House, in reply to a question which I asked, the Minister of Education said that the Government had access to sufficient revenue to meet the needs of education in Victoria. It has now been proved conclusively and stated publicly that the Government has not access to sufficient revenue to meet this need. The solution is not for the Government to wring its hands and say that it could provide more money for hospitals if it had to provide less for education.

Both the Opposition and the Country Party offered the Government their support if it put up a decent fight with the Commonwealth, but this proposition did not get off the ground. When the Government first offered to put up a fight, the Opposition adopted the most unusual course of unanimously supporting the Government. Unfortunately, the Govern-

The Hon. J. M. Tripovich.

ment ran out of wind. Prime Ministers change, and I do not know whether they all have the same fear complex concerning the Victorian Government. When the Prime Minister says" No," the Premier says" Well, I tried," and returns to this State with crocodile tears. This is not good enough.

Members of the Labor Party have the greatest pleasure in supporting the motion before the House. We believe that the Government ought to be censured and that its members .ought to get off their backsides and do something constructive in obtaining more money for this State.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) .-1 support the motion so ably moved by my Leader. Health should be a primary consideration for every Government because there is no value in the other virtues of life if one does not enjoy good health. The Minister of State Development said that this was the time for the Government to set priorities. Priorities have gone by the board, and the Country Party is concerned that priorities were not established in a more practical manner in the past. The Minister suggests that the State is approaching a crisis, but the Country Party feels that the situation is beyond a crisis-it has reached the stage of a calamity.

Twelve months ago, country hospitals owed $10 million to the banks of this State; this year the figure has escalated to $18 million. Banks, which have never been outstanding for their charity, have not advanced all this money without receiving a reward in the form of interest payments, which add substantially to the burdens of the hospitals.

I was interested to hear that a few years ago the Government was contributing $27 million to the Hospitals and Charities Fund and that this year the amount had been increased substantially. This does nothing towards solving the problem because all things are relative and the Government has failed to accept that the


present allocation will purchase significantly less than the lesser allocation of a few years ago.

Mr. Swinburne rightly pointed out that, in 1951, 9 per cent of the Gov-, ernment's revenue was allocated to hospitals and health services. In the past financial year, the percentage has been reduced to four. The proportion of revenue allocated to this purpose is a vital factor in any financial exercise and more relevant than quoting figures to prove that the allocation for health services has been increased by so many dollars.

The Minister of State Development referred to present-day costs and the small amount of assistance the State was receiving. In 1951, the Government budgeted for the cost of hospital treatment for pensioners. At the present time all that is received from the Commonwealth Government is $5. The Government knows this and does not budget for it. I venture to suggest that in the over-all picture the cost of pensioner hospital treatment today is somewhere in the vicinity of $30 million per year. A few years ago, the Government budgeted for this and it was part of the over-all allocation. The present Government has adopted a totally unrealistic attitude.

In 1951, the amount of money allocated to metropolitan hospitals was $4 million whilst the allocations to country hospitals was $32,000 'more. In 1968-69, figures for which are the latest available, the allocation for metropolitan hospitals had increased to $37.5 mHlion and for country hospitals to approximately $11.25 million. One can understand that metropolitan hospitals would receive better treatment at the hands of this Government. There are approximately 6,300 beds in country hospitals as against 7,300 in metropolitan hospitals. Therefore, the scales are tipped greatly in favour of metropolitan hospitals.

Wi'th the development of the State, good or bad health is quite 'often an effect and the cause is something

quite removed. It is difficult to estimate the growing financial needs of hospitals. The Victorian College of Nursing is seeking a 50 per cent increase across the board in nurses' salaries and a decision is expected within the month. In New South Wales, over the past eighteen months the salaries of nurses have increas'ed by 50 per cent. Acoordingly, the Government must realize the necessity to budget for a slimilar increase in Victoria.

In New South Wales, a first year trained nurs'e receives $67.75 per week whilst her Victorian counterpart receives $60. 70 per week. A fifth year nurse in Victoria receives $70 . 10 Wh'ilst her counterpart in New South Wal'es receives $81 per we'ek. A matron in charge of' a Victorian hospital willlh less than 21 beds receives $101 per week whilst the minimum s'a'lary for 'a matron in New South Walels is $117. The relative maximum salary for matrons In Victoria 'is $139 as against $176.40 in New South Wales. It is inevitable that a substantial drain will be made on the resources of 'the 'hospitals to meet these increased costs. However, nobody wants nurses not to receive wage justice.

A complete re-examination of the State's rOile in 'hospital financing is needed. The Governm'ent should be prepared To meet thle challenge which has been evident for some time and, in budgeting, prepare realistically for it.

I am alarmed at the position of hospitals within the Gippsland Province. A new hosplital building is just about completed and due to open in the near future at N ewborough. The building cost approximately $3.25 miNion. The Lattrobe VaHey Community Hospital, which wiU m~ve inlto the new buHding, had a deficit of $55,000 last December and at June next the deficit is expected ,to be $196,000. This hospital cannot pay its creditors and the people'who have supported 'the, building 'Of 'the new hospital feel thaJt they are being let

4176 H ospitais and Charities [COUNCIL.] Commission.

down. Although the Latrobe Valley is one of the lower income areas in the State, local residents responded magnificentlyand contributed $160,000 towards the cost of the new hospital.

It cannot be said ,that the admin'istrative costs 'Of the existing hospital were excessive. The average increase in operating cos1ts throughout the State from 1965 to the present time was 31.2 per cent, whereas the increase in the operating costs of the Latrobe VaHey Oommunity Hospital was only 25.5 percent. This hospital wi'll not have the money tOo move into the new building. A deputation from that hospital met the Minister of Health in January this year t'O seek some clarification and financial assistance in order that the hospital would be in a better position 'to move in to the new building, but as yet it has not had a reply from the Minister. It may well happen that the transfer will be delayed because the Government has failed to make adequate financial provision.

The Gippsland Base Hospital at Sale is expected Ito have a deficit of $226,000 at 22nd September, 1971. This is a desperate situation for ,any hospital. However, I do not propose to deal with the other hospitals in the area because the'ir plight will be well known.

The Government is not realistically facing its 'Obligations and responsibilities in hospital :financing. The sooner the Government faces its responsibilities, the better it will be f'Or the body which administers hospitals, because the Government has not met with any success in providing finance to meet the desperate situation. Hospital overdrafts have increased astronomically. Chaos will result unless action is taken in the near future. The Yallourn hospital owes about $30,000 to local trades people. This is a serious state of affairs, and I wonder how long the local trades people will continue to carry this burden without issuing a writ against the hospital and bringing matters to a head with the Government. It gives me pleasure to associate myself with the motion moved by my Leader. I

The Hon. R. W. May.

trust that as a result the Government will face up squarely to the issue and ensure that adequate funds are made available to the Hospitals and Charities Commission to meet the existing situation and to allow hospital treatment to advance for the benefit of the people of Victoria.

The Hon. H. A. THOMAS (Melbourne West Province).-There are six major hospitals for the aged in the Melbourne and metropolitan area. Over the past few months I have made it my business to visit some of them. This is what I saw. At Greenvale Village for the Aged near Broadmeadows, the hospital is situated in an attractive native bush setting. There is no pollution, no bustle and no noise from screaming motor cars and screeching brakes. It is an ideal location. At Greenvale, magnificent work is being done by the doctors, nurses and staff in rehabilitating persons who have suffered serious accidents or illnesses, including strokes, amputations and fractured limbs. I saw daily physiotherapy, occupational and speech therapy, and dental and 'Optical services are available to treat all the ills that beset old age. On the waiting list are 1,250 persons who are in urgent need of care and who will not be able to be admitted for a least another two and a half years. One of the tragedies at Greenvale is the number of empty beds. There are 40 beds with all physical supplies available but no staff to care for 40 additional old people. I invite honorable members to consider the capital cost that is being wasted.

The situation ,at M'Ount R!oyal home and hospital for the aged is dreadful; there is a tremendous shortage of beds. There are 633 beds for in-patients and in a year 8,000 out-patients receive day hospital treatment. The in-patients are both male and female in about equal numbers" and on the waiting list there are 1,500 persons who are mostly old, very sick people. Many 'of these 'persons are in urgent 'need of the services and facilities of a geriatric 'hospital; yet

Hospitals and Charities [23 MARCH, 1971.] Commission .. 4177

in many cases the waiting time is two and a half years for males and approximately five years for .females. This shocking situation can be overcome only by the provision of additional beds. At the day hospital section, 40 to 50 persons are treated daily. They are transported to the hospital and taken home after treatment. Without this transport service many sufferers would be unable to visit the hospital. There is also a full rehabilitation section, consisting of medical and para-medical treatment, together with spiritual guidance. These facilities are provided to persons suffering from arthritis, strokes, broken or missing limbs and many other ailments. After receiving treatment, more than 600 people annually are able to return to the community and lead reasonably happy and useful lives.

At Cheltenham many cars speed along Warrigal Road, but few of the motorists realize what lies beyond the trees at the corner of Warrigal Road and Kingston Road. Nor do they realize the activities that are carried on to assist the patients, who regard this establishment as home. It is now known as the Kingston Home and Hospital for the Aged. The accommoda tion there is extremely short; there are 2,000 females and 600 males on the waiting list. Many persons will have a three year wait before being admitted-that is if they are still alive at the expiration of that time. At Kingston Home and Hospital for the Aged, of the 546 beds 500 are occupied by permanent patients. There is a complete breakdown in the care and hospitalization of the aged.

On the rise in St. George's Road, Northcote, stands St. Joseph's Little Sisters of the Poor-a home and hospital for the aged. There I saw an outstanding illustration of what these sisters do to make old people feel that they are wanted. This has to be seen to be believed. They also operate a rehabilitation centre complete 'with nursing, medical and paramedical treatment similar to the other

hospitals I have mentioned, together with spiritual guidance. Here the patients are not sent home after treatment; once they are admitted they remain until they pass away. Occasionally they visit their friends and families, but they return to St. Joseph's, where they are most happy. No detail is spared to cater for their comfort and happiness. Even a hairdresser is provided. Although some of these people are 90 years of age or more, they remain happy, alert and cheerful. I pay a tribute to all the doctors and nurses-in fact to all people who are connected with hospitals for the aged-for their dedication and kindness. The mark of any civilization, whether ancient or modern, is the manner in which it cares for its aged. Nothing can be more shameful than for old people to have nothing except their years to show that they have lived. In Victoria, thousands of old people can claim nothing more than old age; they are without benefits, and are suffering without any medical care and without any prospect of help.

In Melbourne, 7,000 persons are in urgent need of care but they have no hope of relief for at least two and a half years. As a community, we do not care sufficiently for our aged. How can we, when we live in an age that does not care? We must remember that old people are not different people. They are normal people growing old in the normal manner. Growing old is a normal process; it will happen and is happening to all of us. Life is just as precious to old people as it is to any member of this Chamber. They are the persons who pioneered this country and who have contributed greatly to its development. Are they to be discarded merely because they are old, and cast away like an old shoenot wanted?

The figures I am about to quote relate only to Melbourne, and I hope the situation in country areas is not as acute, although I have some doubts. Medical services are declining in the country; the services of doctors are becoming harder to obtain and hos-

4178 H ospita/s and Charities [CQUNcn..] Commission.

pitals more difficult to staff. At present, a total of 5,160 persons are waiting to occupy 1,699 beds. This means that there are three times as many people waiting as there are beds to accommodate them. How many more persons are there who realize that it is not worth while putting down their names because death will be quicker than relief? It is a melancholy thought that many old persons who are in urgent need of help will not be alive when their turn comes for admission. The situation must worsen and the queues become longer because more people are living for a greater span of years. This situation must be accepted because of the increasing skills of the medical profession, the marvels of medical science and medicine and skilled nursing attention. According to the latest figures made available to me, over the past ten years the waiting list for beds has increased by 300 per cent and 2,000 beds are wanted immediately. So we are not only not coping with the situation but getting further behind. This is a shocking situation. We must not let the declining years of old people become a sentence of solitary confinement ending in death; nor must we allow their years to become a death watch. They should not have to live in a cell which is hot in the summer and cold in the winter.

What must be done? This problem is beyond the resources of the State Government. Massive sums of money are needed. The Commonwealth Government must find the funds to be distributed and administered by the State. If the Commonwealth Government can find money for destruction in war time, it must be able to find money for the health and welfare of the nation.

The plight of old people in need of medical care cries out for action, but the Victorian Government has been entangled in some sort of political fight with its counterpart in Canberra, so nothing has been done; meanwhile, more and more old people suffer needlessly. Tpe health of the nation is the responsibility of any .Governmente

The Hon. H. A. Thomas.

The Hon. H. R. WARD (SouthEastern Province) .-1 am delighted that the House has before it an adjournment motion on a matter raised by me la'St week, when I referred to the Southern Peninsula Hospital at Rosebud, the condition of which has become symptomatic of the affairs of other institutions throughout the State. 1 also compliment Mr. Thomas on his argument and the great work done by him in ascertaining the needs faced by the Government.

Tonight in thi'S Chamber all honorable members support a facet of a debate conducted some time ago on Commonwealth-State relationships. This is important because, as the debate has continued, it has emphasized the need to press home to the Commonwealth Government the basic defect in its policy of not supporting the State Governments, particularly in the field of social welfare, for which it is responsible.

I was interested in the remark,s of Mr. Tripovich about increases in wages. In spite of the honorable member's comments on inflation, I am delighted to know that the staffs of hospitals are now better paid. It is time that the work of these people was considered and that they received appropriate benefits, but the remark passed jocularly by Mr. Galbally when he referred to straight boards leads to consideration of costs and standards of equipment. It is true that Mr. Galbally stated that sometimes straight boards are used for beds, but the Minister referred to improved equipment of another kind which costs a great deal of money. As science advances, so costs increase. The Government must be prepared to spend more money on hospitals and, as wages and costs increase, additional money must be . obtained so that it'S responsibilities may be faced -even the fund-begging' responsibility of obtaining money from the Commonwealth Government. This must be done so that increased funds can be obtained.


I was interested in Mr. May's figures of expenditure throughout the State as between the country and metropolitan areas. The figures produced by the honorable member did not have much regard for the tremendous increase in population. If the honorable member were to check the 1968-69 report of the Hospitals and Charities Commission, he would see that there were three times the number of attendances at metropolitan hospitals as there were at country hospitals-to the tune of approximately 1.6 million, compared with 500,000. Accordingly, expenditure has been spread in approximately the same proportion-$11.25 million in the country and $37.5 million in the metropolitan area.

So far as is humanly possible within the State, the functions of the Hospitals and Charities Commission have been carried out satisfactorily and all honorable members have commended the managements of all hospitals throughout the State. The committees of management perform a remarkable job and it is not necessary to go any further than this Chamber to meet the president of a hospital committee in the person of the Minister of Agriculture, who is well aware of the problems of hospital administration and the guards placed on administration by the committees of management, as well as the checks carried out by the Hospitals and Charities Commission to see that money is spent in the correct manner and that proper budgeting is carried out. In this way there is a double check on expenditure. Even if there has been some mild criticism that 'certain people may not have the literary qualifications to act as secretary of a hospital, there is the check on expenditure and treasurers of hospitals to ensure that there is no mismanagement of funds. There is outstanding coordination between hospital organizations and the Hospitals and Charities Commission.

The Nimmo report suggested that public wards in hospitals should be done away with and that the honorary

system, which has stood fast in England for so long, should be replaced. If these suggestions are adopted, it is likely that the additional cost will be approximately $36 million. This money can only come from the Commonwealth Government, which said that it would take over the responsibility for social services. What has happened? The basic defect in the Federal Government's policy has widened the huge gap. Only 25 per cent of hospital expenditure in this State is actually provided by the Commonwealth Government. In turn, the State must find 67 per cent from its own resources. The gap must be filled by fees.

Since 1948, according to the Official Year Book of the Commonwealth of Australia, hospital costs have risen approximately eight times. Salaries and wages have risen ten times, and 66 per cent of total working costs of hospita1s consists of salaries and wages. This pOint was expressed by Mr. Tripovich in another manner.

Last week I mentioned the problems facing the Southern Peninsula Hospital. I shall not say anything further about that matter except to point out that for each pensioner patient the loss to a hospital is $100 a week. The loss sustained by the Southern Peninsula Hospital has amounted to $20,000 per annum. If these fees had been met the deficit could well have been matched by the revenue received by that hospital.

Mr. Thomas ably presented the situation of elderly people unable to contribute' to their hospitalization and it is certain that they are a responsibility at Commonwealth level.

I take Mr. Swinburne to task for his comments that young people do not seem to care. Last Sunday during the Red Cross appeal I saw hundreds of young people involved in this work and am convinced that they do care. A special section in the Hospitals and Charities Commission 'report refers to the fact that young people care about people in


need. This can be observed in the form of younger sets and guilds formed to help various hospitals.

Women's auxiliaries should not be set up for the purpose of meeting capital costs of hospitals, or salaries and wages. These auxiliaries are formed to provide the extra services needed in the hospital and virtually are special services, or the cream that can be provided in a hospital. There are situations in which some auxiliaries are required to meet certain capital costs and wages. In principle, this is wrong and I have expressed this view to auxiliaries which have written to me on this matter. I know that the Minister of Health is also concerned about it.

I have examined the situation in regard to payments for works and services, as it was suggested that the Government had not met its responsibilities in this respect. The figures for works and services for bush nursing hospitals can be glossed over, but in 1965-66 a sum of $230,000 was spent specifically on payments for works and services, and in 1969-70 that figure was increased by 33 per cent. For the payment of works and services specifically carried out by the Hospitals and Charities Commission, this amount was also increased bv 35 per cent-from $11 million to $15 million-which is money provided by the State. Therefore, the Government has faced up to its responsibilties .in that period.

Mr. Swinburne referred to a marvellous set of figures relating to hospital expenditures. Honorable members are aware that in 1969-70, $131 million was expended on the total health services throughout the State, and $60 million was expressly spent through the Hospitals and Charities Commission. There is no diminution in percentage, or real money to be spent in the current year, when it is intended that there will be an expenditure of $147 million. The Hospitals and Charities Commission will have available to it a sum of $70 million. The total increase over

The Ron. R. R. Ward.

the period is 12 per cent, and the total increase in expenditure for hospitals has been 16 per cent.

It is also interesting to examine expenditure on hospitals compared with Budget expenditure over the year. Twelve per cent of the total expenditure of $729 million in 1969-70 was allocated to hospitals. In the following year the Budget figure was $803 million, and a further $180 million from the Consolidated Loan Fund increased the amount to $983 milljon.

Over the past nine years $9 million has been allocated for teaching in hospitals. Prior to that, the amount of money expended in this way was nothing more than nominal. If honorable members were to visit the hospitals in their respective provinces and were to assess the value of the work carried out through the Hospitals and Charities Commission they would be amazed. They would see that this Government has not dodged any of its responsibilities, as has been suggested by some honorable members. The Government has measured up to the job which has confronted it. It has been a begging responsibility to obtain funds from the people who collect the money. If the Government were to collect its own money it would share a greater responsibility. This viewpoint has already been expressed in this Chamber and is another facet of the major problem of Commonwealth-State relationships. It may be said that the new Leader of the Government in the Federal sphere can be the new Messiah, especially having regard to the approach of Easter. It is still necessary for Victoria to obtain money from the Federal Government by begging. The Government should be able to obtain adequate funds from the Commonwealth.

I am disappointed that it is necessary to raise hospital bed fees. However, the Government is charged with the responsibility of bringing forward regulations to increase fees but even when this action is taken,

H ospita/s and Charities [23 MARCH, 1971.] Commission. 4181

three months must elapse before they are implemented. The motion before the Cha:ir cannot be regarded as a censure of the Victorian Government. I should be happy to pass on to any Federal member of Parliament this motion of censure. It is pleasing to find members in this Chamber who are prepared to censure the Federal Government for its failure to provide adequate finance for hospitals in Victoria. I am sure the Premier and Treasurer will welcome the support of this House and this motion of censure, not of the State Government but of the Federal Government.

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL (Western Province).-The House is not debating the question of Commonwealth-State relationships. Since I have been a member of Parliament, I have heard the State Government frequently blame the Federal Government for its 'inactivity in this State.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-The motion before the Chair, does not refer to either the Federal Government or the State Government. Therefore, members, are in order in referring to either Government during 'the debate.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y (Melbourne North Province) .-Mr. President, I rise to a point of order. Surely, this motion which has been moved in the State P.arliament must refer not to the Commonwealth Government but to the Victorian Government. The debates in this Chamber cannot relate to another Government.

The PRESIDENT.-Tbe motion refers only by assumption to the Victorian Government. I agree, to some extent, that the debate has concerned the Victorian Government but I have also allowed members to refer to the Federal Government. Because of the wording of the motion, I think it is quite in order for members to refer to both the State and Federal Governments.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province) .-On the point of order, Mr. President, I have

strong views in relation to the wording of my motion. There is only one Government in Victoria and surely members of this Parliament must be referring to the State Government unless they specifically mention the Federal Government. I cannot see how the Federal Government comes into the motion, although I can understand why it should be mentioned in the course of the debate.

The PRESIDENT.-I merely indicated that because of the use of the word "Government" in the motion, it can only be an assumption that the motion refers to the Victorian Government. The majority of members who have participated in the debate have referred to both the State and Federal Governments. I have pointed out to Mr. Mitchell that I shall not prevent him from referring to the Federal Government if he wishes to do, so.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (M'elbourne North Province) .-By leave, ass'um'ing this moti'On is carried and the Hous'e adjourns, will honorable members assume 'that Government members could then say, "We were not censured because this motion was aimed at the Commonwealth Government "?

The PRESIDENT.-I am trying to assist Mr. Mitchell by indicating that I will not prevent him from referri~g to the Federal Government.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern P.rovince) .-By leave, I 'adopt a different attitude from you, Mr. President. If I had wished to include the Federal Government in my motion of censure, I should have used the word "G'Overnments" but I deliberately used the 'Singular word because my motion is directed at the State Government.

The PRESIDENT.-I am merely indicating to honorable members that if they wish t'O refer to the F'ederal Government during this debate, I will allow them to d'O so.

4182 Hospitals and Charities [COUNCn..] . Commission~

The Hon. G. L.· CHANDLER (Minister 'Of Agriculture) .-On the point 'Of order, I think your interpretation is quite right, Mr. President. I can underS'tand Mr. Swinburne not including a reference to' the F'ederal Government 'in his motion because he knows that if the Victorian Government had $25 milli'On to pay for pensioner patients in hospital for which the Federal GoV'e'rnment is responsible, this moti'On would not be before the House tonight.

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL (Western Province) .-1 thank you for your assistance, Mr. President; 1 understand the point of your ruling. The m'Otion is one of censure, not of the Comm'Onwealth Go vernm'ent, but of the State Government. If the State Government feels 'that it cannot handle its resp'Onsibilities c'Oncerning hospitals, it should hand them over to the Federal Government. Members of the Country Party and 'Of the Labor Party have done their utm'Ost to bring about a ShO'wdown with the Federal Government 'On the questi'On of Commonwealth-State relati'Onships but they have been tet down by members of the Government. What m'Ore can honorable members do when faced with a problem of this type than to attack the people who are really responsible for it? After all, 'the Government party either governs 'Or it does not; if it cannot cope with its responsibililties, 'it should res'ign. The State Government has many powers with which to deal with the current situation. Unfortunately, whenever the Government is criticized for not attending to iits responsibilities, Government members say that the situati'On has arisen because the Federa'! Government will not provide the requisite finance.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-That is quite right.

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL.-It may be right, but is 'it not also right that the State Government should display a little c'Ourage and decide whether it bel'Ongs to the Liberal Party in Canberra?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Do you belong to the Federal Country Party?

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL.-It is strange that whenever a problem relating to primary industry is raised, the Government members blame the situation upon Mr. Anthony"s departm'eJl!t or Sir John McEwen's former department, but this House is now deaHng with the question 'Of m'Oney.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-And hospitals!

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL.-Because the H'Ouse is dealing wirth a question 'Of finance, both the Treasurer and 'the Prime Minister should be broughit into the debate. However, I propose 'to deal with a State issue, namely, that of caring fior the sick. A terrible s:ituation exists when those who are healthy refuse to care f'Or the sick, and this is what Government members are doing.

I congratulate Mr. Thomas, who has obviously undertaken considerable research on this question, on his excellent maiden speech in this Chamber. It was interesting to hear from the honorable member what is happening in the State concerning the sick and the aged. Honorable members should not overlook the fact that in a few years' time they, too, will be old. As one whose father is still living, I realize that it will not be long before I shall be aged. A sorry state of affairs exists when the Government turns its back on the sick and the aged.

Men and women working on voluntary committees perform splendid work to keep hospitals functioning. Are these people to be enC'Quraged or discouraged? The Government is making the task of voluntary workers virtually impossible. Many voluntary workers who live in country towns deal with business people-some of them are in business themselvesand it must be distressing for them to . find that debts are accumulating and no action can be taken to rectify the position. This is not good enough. '


Generally speaking, hospitals have depended largely upon charities in the pa'st. .A!t 29 years 'Of age, I was president of a bush nursing hospital and I know at first hand what is involved in administering a hospital. Those who are healthy in the community must look after the sick, but we are failing to do so. Three hospitals in my province will incur a deficit of $200,000 this year. Are the managements of such hospi tals t'O be left in this agony wondering how they will pay their accounts? Those who have administered hospitals in the past have taken pride in the fact that they have been able to keep up payments, but now they see the position slipping from under their feet because the Government fails to take suitable action. In this respect, the State Government has failed in its responsibility.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province) .-1 support the motion moved by my Leader. The motion refers to the failure of the Government-my Leader was referring to the State Governmentto provide adequate funds towards the maintenance and capital expenditure of hospitals and institutions subsidized by the Hospitals and Charities Commission. The Minister of State Development put forward an interesting defence of the Government from which it appears that the Hospitals and Charities Commission, hospital management committees throughout the State and management committees of old people's homes can have only the pious hope that if they wait long enough more money will be made available to Victoria-possibly after the Premiers Conference next month.

The Country Party believes that the Government has failed by not providing adequate funds for the commission to assist in the administration and capital building programmes of hospitals in Victoria. It is all very well for the Minister 'Of State Development, to say that if Victoria could obtain fair reimbursements from the Commonweal~h for

the public wards occupied by pensioners, the problem would be solved. Previous Governments have been confronted with the same problem. No Minister or member of this House will deny that it has always been the Federal Government's responsibility to provide social services for the aged in the community. However, it is the responsibility of the State Governments to make up the deficit between the allocation provided by the Commonwealth and the expenditure incurred in running hospitals in Victoria today.

What is the future of many hospitals in ViCitoria, pa'~ticularly in :the next few m'onths? Victorian hospitals are 'in an extremely embarrassing position. Perhaps I may be fa:rgiven f'Or making a comparis'On between country and m'etropoli'tan ,hospita'ls. Many small country hospitals are facing large deficits. In their small communities the people who voluntarily serve 'On hospital comm'i'ttees are known pers'Onally to the loca'l business 'houses. In the Myrtleford Times 'Of Monday, 1st March, under the heading, "Hospital Facing Financ'ial Crisis" the foll'Owing report appeared:-

The hospital's financial position has deteriorated since the beginning of the financial year and the hospital is heading for a record deficit. Already it is necessary to delay paying its debts and in order to avoid a worsening of this situation stern measures will be taken to speed up the cash income.

That is only one exampl'e in a 'township of the size 'Of MYI"tl'eford. Members of the volun'tary c'Ommittees are embarrassed when they face the local businessmen knowing that the hospital is unable to meet its debts. This situation doe'S n'Ot exist with many of the metropolitan hospitals because the personal 'touch is not apparent in the vastness of the metropolitan area. The Minister of State Development used 1960-61 as his base year.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-I went back a decade.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-That is so, but what a c'Onvenient decade! In the same decade the general vote from the Consolic;Iated Fund was $18


miUion, which was 64.79 per cent of the total. It will be found that for the previous year the total vote from the Consolidated Fund was $17.724 million, or 67.72 per cent. Since that' time the percentage vote has been deteriorating. Since the advent of the Totalizator Agency Board and Tattersall consultations, a great relief has been provided ,to the ConsO'lidated Fund, and Ithe responsibility of the Government has l'e'Ssened.

I made my maiden speech in this Chamber eighteen yea'rs ago on the introduction of Tattersalls into Victoria. In 1953, I asked the former Minister of Labaur and Industry, Mr. Fraser, whether he wauld give the House a guaran1tee that the Governm'ent wauld ma'inltain its percentage of grants from the Cansolidated Fund ta haspitals and charities as it had dane in the past. Hawever, the situation deteriorated. As against the figure quoted by the Minister of State Development, in 1961-62 the praportion was down ta 63.31 per cent; in 1962-63 it had drapped further to 59.38 per cent; in 1963-64 it had dropped still further to 56.18 per cent; in 1964-65 it was 55.47 per cent; in 1965-66 it slightly increased ta 56.5 per cent; in 1967-68 it dropped back to 52.89 per cent; in 1968-69 it increased to 58.13 per cent; and last year, as the Minister 'Of State Develapment said, the figure was 60.46 per cent.

The Han. V. O. DICKIE.-In those days the advantages 'Of haspital benefits were nat available. As the haspitals received payments fram haspital benefits, sa the percentage drapped.

The Han. A. K. BRADBURY.-The percentages have drapped whilst the contributians from Tattersalls and off-caurse betting have been increasing. The peaple 'Of Victaria have hadthe woal pulled aver their eyes. They were told that, with the intraduction of the aff-caurse tote and Tattersall consultations, everything in the garden wauld be lavely sa far

as hospitals were concerned. That has nat been the case-anly the Cansolidated Fund has been helped.

The Gavernment has not provided adequate capital grants far hospitals and it has nat maintained its cantributians in relatian to increased costs :since 1963 when the allacatian to haspitals and charities was $12,226,328. In 1964 the amount was $11,382,228. The allocatian necessary ta allow the same rate 'Of building as in 1963 was $12,898,786. This indicates a deficit 'Of $1,516,558. In 1965, the allacatian was $11,381,984. The allacatian necessary ta meet increased casts should have been $13,627,476. The deficiency was $2,245,492. Sa the figures cantinue until 1971 with an allacatian to the Haspitals and Charities Cammissian 'Of $13,850,000. The allacatian necessary ta meet the equivalent cast was $18,884,454, shawing a variatian of $4,994,454. Because 'Of the failure 'Of the Gavernment to make adequate pravisian far haspital needs, the haspitals are almost $5 millian warse 'Off in 1971 than they were in 1963.

It is 'Of na use saying that because 'Of the caalitian Government in Canberra, members 'Of the Cauntry Party shauld be taking their Federal calleagues ta task. What did this Government da twelve manths ago? A matian was passed unanimausly in this Chamber asking that an appraach be made to the other States far a unifarm appraach to the Cammanwealth Gavernment far an alteratian 'Of the Commonwealth Canstitutian ta ensure that the States received an adequate financial return far their undertakings. The matter was transmitted ta an ather place; it remained an the bottam of the Natice Paper and was fargatten.

The Han. G. L. CHANDLER.-It has been dane.

The Han. A. K. BRADBURY.-It has been dealt with naw, but the motian was carried in this Chamber twelve manths ago. It was revived 'Only because the Government wanted


same kudO's and adapted the matter in anather place during the last spring sessianal peri ad.

The Han. G. L. CHANDLER.-The Premier has taken up the matter.

The Han. A. K. BRADBURY.-The matter was dealt with in this Chamber twelve manths agO'. The Minister af State Develapment and Mr. Ward said that the Cauntry Party was part af the caalitian Gavernment. If the Liberal Party had dane as much as the Cauntry Party members in Victaria to' bring its caunterparts in Canberra intO' line, same pragress wauld have been made.

The Han. G. L. CHANDLER.-Have yau been successful?

The Han. A. K. BRADBURY.Members af my party have made an appraach. A canference was called af the State Parliamentary party and it was unanimausly resalved that pressure shauld be braught to' bear on aur Federal calleagues far a better Cammanwealth-State financial relatianship. Our members at Canberra have been pressing far this. Hawever, a Cauntry Party member daes nat hald the partfalia af Treasurer in the caalitian Gavernment. Hanorable members will realize that the Treasurer in the Cammanwealth and the Premier and Treasurer in the State have the majar say in the aBaca tians in the Budgets. Fram time to' time han arable members hear that the Premier is going away in quietness to' prepare his Budget. Therefare, he has the majar say, as alsO' daes the Treasurer in Canberra.

With haspitals, is Victaria playing a part camparable with its sister State af New Sauth Wales? One aften hears haw efficient are the Victarian haspitals. I jain with ather speakers in paying a high tribute to' the present cammissianers, Dr. Lindell, Mr. McLellan and Mr. Thamas. Nat many hanarable members wauld like to' be in their shaes to' face the prablems cantinually placed befare them and knawing that many haspitals thraughout the State are in desperate straits.

Sesslon 1971.-152

The majarity af haspital managers have been through the haspital administratian caurse. I believe the figures prave the efficiency within the cammissian and the variaus cammittees in haspitals. It is interesting to' campare the subsidies paid by the Victarian and New Sauth Wales Gavernments. In 1968-69 Victaria cantributed $43,720,140 and New Sauth Wales $75,268,314. At the relevant time the papulatian af Victaria was 3.402 millian and that af New South Wales 4.504 miUian. The Gavernment grant per capita in Victaria was 12.66 and in New Sauth Wales 16.71. Daes this nat need investigating? DO' the figures not prave that the Victarian Gavernment has pravided insufficient funds camp'ared with those made available in New Sauth Wales?

The Han. H. M. HAMILToN.-They prave anly that New Sauth Wales has mare maney available than Victaria.

The Han. A. K. BRADBURY.Then why daes the New Sauth Wales Gavernment scream to' the Prime Minister, as the Victorian Gavernment daes, far mare funds? New Sauth Wales may have a better Gavernment to' handl'e the affairs af State than Victarila.

The Han. G. L. CHANDLER.-Daes Mr. Bradbury want paker machines intraduced intO' Victoria?

The Han. A. K. BRADBURY.-I dO' nat. I have never been a believer in paker machines and I hape they will never came to' Victaria.

The Han. H. M. HAMILTON.Additianal revenue af $30 millian wauld make a big difference to' this State.

The Han. A. K. BRADBURY.-I agree. I believe alsO' that by praper man1agement, and by a praper aUacatian af priarities, the needs of the peaple af Victar.ia cauld be met. Althaugh members of the Cauntry Party subscribe to the prO' vision of the best educatianal facilities possible,


we believe. the Government has a greater responsibility to the sick, the poor and the aged.

The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON.Does M'r. Bradbury advocate a reduction of funds for education?

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-I am not advocating anything of' the SOf1t. I am voicing our responsibility to the sick, the poor and the aged of this community. It is time the Government realized its responsibility in this sphere. The figures that we have produced prove that the Government has not disch'arged its responsibility to provide adequate~y for hospi:tals. It is doubtful whether any new works will be approved next year becaus'e of the inadequate funds available to the Hospitals and Charities Commission .. Victoria will gradually drift backwards, because the escalation of costs year by year wiU make things more difficult. If costs continue to rise, naturally less wi'll be obtained for the money available. If the loan funds for buildings decrease, the State will be in a most embarf1assing position and the hospital committees will be crying out for help. 1 subscribe to the honorary system of hospital management. by local hospital COmmittees, but 1 believe the time is not far di'stant when many committees will be forced to resign because they will be unable to meet the needs of the people in their area1s. 1 urge honorable members to vote for the motion condemning the Government for its failure adequately to meet the requirements of hospitals in Victoria.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province) .-1 briefly support the motion submitted by the Leader of the Country Party. Its purpose is to highlight and emphasize the critical situation that ha1s arisen in almost every hospital in Victoria. During the debate a mass of statistics has been put forward by members on both sides of the House in support of the motion and in opposition to it. I believe the most significant figures quoted were those used by Mr. Swinburne and by Mr. Tripovich.

They pointed out that in 1950-51 funds representing 9 per cent of the- State Budget were allocated for hospital purpose1s, and that this financial year the figure has deGlined t06 per cent. If payments from the Totalizator Agency Board and Tattersalls are excluded, the percentage this year is only 4. The Minister of State Development has outlined the increase in daily bed costs and undoubtedly his statements are accurate. The honorable gentleman also explained why it is not practical to increase the daily fee for patients. Every member would certainly be opposed to an increase in patients' fees. I suggest that the difference between the revenue collected by the payment of fees by patients and the c01st of running the hospital system in the State-and that includes all of the anc'iHary matters connected with the treatment of the sick anp the aged -should be met by the Commonwealth and State Governments. If we are able to reinforce the Premier's hand when he goes to Canberra in a week or two to see the new Santa Claus in the hope that he will be better treated than he has been in the past, this debate will have achieved 'Something worth while.

1 am convinced that if the Government had made a more advantageous deal with various oil companies and other industrial enterprises over the royalties payable on natural gas and oil, the additional revenue that would have been obtained would have gone a long way towards meeting the cost of the hospitals' deficits. This is one other source of possible income. It is obvious from the interjection by Mr. Hamilton that he is in favour of introducing poker machines into Victoria. Every member of the Country Party is opposed to this. The Minister of State Development has correctly stated that every year there is a crisis in hospital finance in Victoria. 1 am certain that the crisis we face in 1971 is the greatest that the Government has ever been confronted with.


The Hon. H. M. HAl\tllLTON (Higinbotham Province) .-Mr. President, on a point of order, while I was absent from my seat, I heard Mr. McDonald say he considered that I was advocating the introducti'On of poker machines. I 'have never advocated such a thing, nor will I ever do S'O.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Order! I uphold the point of order, because I heard what Mr. Hamilton said regarding poker machines, and he did not imply that he favoured them. Mr. McDonald stated that Mr. Hamilton supported poker machines. Possibly that remark should be withdrawn. Mr. McDonald may have misunderstood Mr. Hamilton's remark.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province) .-Mr. President, I admit I may not have heard Mr. Hamilton's interjection accurately, and I have no hesitation in withdrawing the statement.

The crisis in hospital administration in 1971 is undoubtedly the worst that the Government has been confronted with. I have a letter from the manager and secretary of the Mooroopna and District Base Hospital. I shall not go into details of the financial operations of the hospital except to say that the net result of the national wage case and of wages board decisions is that the hospital will have a continuing monthly deficit of $24,000. One paragraph of the letter outlines the ultimate result if urgent and drastic action is not taken to rectify the situation. In a letter dated 10th March, 1971, the secretary-manager of the Mooroopna and District Base Hospital, Mr. Geoffrey Nice, states-

Short of drastic curtailment of services and wholesale dismissal of staff, economies which can be made will affect the. situation only marginally and the position of the committee of management is rapidly becoming untenable.

That statement highlights the situation that the House is discussing. Unless urgent action is taken by the

Government to provide finance to meet the gap b~tween the cost 'Of operating hospitals and revenue from patients' fees, committees of management will be in a desperate situation and the services which hospitals render to the public will rapidly deteriorate.. The final paragraph of this letter reads-

The committee understands that our financial situation is typical of most" public hospitals in Victoria and we will appreciate your help in bringing pressure on the Government to ensure that hospitals are not closed or their services dangerously reduced.

The objective of the Country Party in moving this adjournment motion is to ensure that health and hospital services in Victoria do not deteriorate further because of lack of finance. The Country Party has put forward this motion in an endeavour to relieve the burden placed on committees of management-a burden which is rapidly becoming untenable.

The Hon. B. P. DUNN (NorthWestern Province) .-1· should like to make a few brief comments in support of my Leader and my colleagues who have spoken to this motion concerning the very serious problem of hospitals and other health institutions in Victoria. The debate has highlighted the moral obligation of the Government to provide adequate health services, and statistics on economics and finance have been cited. All of these things are related.

The motion is an important one, which the members of the Country Party have taken seriously because we believe that hospitalization and adequate health facilities are among the most essential services in a country. In a c'Ounltry Itown the hospital is the centre of the community; it is an institution that the whole community works for and takes an inte'rest in, and usually during their life most residents enter it at some stage or other. Our criticism of the Government is simple. . The Government has a responsibility to provide for the


people of Victoria various facilities, including health and hospital services.

Under the present Liberal Government many important services-I shall not mention them all because I may be rebuked for going beyond the ambit of the debate-are failing to keep pace with the growth of population in the State and are getting deeper and deeper into difficulties. A position will eventually be reached when, no matter how much Federal money is received, many State s'ervices will be inadequate.

The G'Overnment has attempted t'O counter criticisms levelled against it by the Country Party. I agree that Victoria is faced with problems of finance and budgeting, but I d'O not beli'eve it is enough simply t'O blame the Comm'Onwealth Government. That 'is What the Government has attempted to do to.night and 'On many previous 'occas'i'Ons. The Government simply says, "They have the money, and we have n'Ot; it is as simple as that". I do not believe that to. be so. In many fields within Victoria finance is limited, but the State has money, and it is necessary that priorities should be 'established to ensure ~hat it is spent [in the best interests 'o.f the people 'Of this c'Ommunity. Present pri'Orities 'Ought to be reconsidered, because the situation in 'hospitals and 'other 'inst'itutions is de~e'fiorating and Government subsidies are n'Ot keeping abreast 'Of increases in costs. As an example of this, I cite !the Mildura Base Hospita'l, which has 'accepted the fact that it will have a deficit of $163,000 at the end of :the financial year. It is already 'operating 'On a bank overdraft of $200,000. There are many hospitals in Victo'fia which are in a similar positi'On.

Many factors have contributed to the financial difficulties of hospitals. An important one is the rising cost of op'erations and management and delays in the payment of accounts by The Hon. B. P. Dunn

patients. fi is regrettable that because there 'is an increaSing inequality of wages, standards 'Of living and opportunities in our society, many people can pay hospital and medical accounts with 'ease but others cannot pay them at all. Although unavoidable, the non-payment of hospital acc'Ounts s'eriously affects the financial positi'On 'Of the hospitals.

I have not'hing but praise for the outstanding work 'of hospital committees of management. Without their efforts, and those of oth[er interested persons, our hospHal system would collapse. This 'is particularly S'O in country towns, where, as I have said, the hospital is almost the centre of the c'Ommunity; and when one hears of the result of charitable appeals one realizes that the community 'Of Victoria is doing i;ts best to. assist in improving the situatron.

I congratulate Mr. Th'Omas on his speech 'On the problems of aged people in Victoria. In many houses in Victoria there are elderly, lonely people who are not able to look after themselves and many who are ill. They cannot cope with day to day living, and I agree that they should be acc'Ommodated in insti tut'ions and homes where 'they can be lo'Oked after and suppl'ied wi'~h adequate meals.

The Hospitalis 'and Charities C'Ommission has revealed in its annual report for 1970-71 that there are 7,000 people awaiting admission to benevolent homes or homes for the aged. Some of them are in hospitals, and the commission is doing what it can to alleviate the costs involved. Many of them require extensive treatment, and members of the Country Party believe the Government could provide this if it desired to do so. The Government must provide adequate health facilities for every child, and every middle aged and elderly person in the State. I contend that Victoria's hospitalization system is in danger of collapse, and if that is to be avoided the Government must take urgent action.

Statute Law [23 MARCH, 1971.] Revision Committee. 4189

The House divided on the motion for the adjournment of the House (the Hon. R. W. Garrett in the chair)-

Ayes 17 Noes 17

Mr. Bradbury Mr. Clarke Mr. Eddy Mr. Elliot Mr. Galbally Mr. Kent Mr. Knight Mr. McDonald Mr. Mansell

AYES.

Mr. May Mr. Mitchell Mr. O'Connell Mr. Swinburne Mr. Thomas Mr. Tripovich.

Tellers.: Mr. Dunn

I Mr. Walton. NOES.

Mr. Byrne Mr. Hider Mr. Chandler Mr. Houghton Mr. Dickie Mr. Hunt Mr. Gleeson Mr. Jenkins Mr. Granter Mr. Nicol Mr. Grimwadf Mr. Ward. Mr. Gross Tellers.: Mr. Hamilton Mr. Campbell Mr. Hauser Mr. Fry.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Because there is an equality of votes, it is necessary for me to give a casting vote. In order that the business of the House should not be taken out of the hands of the Government, I cast my vote with the " Noes".

The motion was therefore negatived.

STATUTE LAW REVISION COMMITTEE.

ApPOINTMENT OF MEMBER.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-By leave, I move-

That the Honorable A. J. Hunt be discharged from attendance on the Sta1tute Law Revision Committee and the Honorable F. S. Grimwade be appointed in his sltead.


IMPERIAL ACTS ApPLICATION (REPEALS) BILL.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) presented a report from the Statute Law Revision Committee upon the proposals contained in the Imperial Acts Application (Repeals) Bill, together with minutes of evidence.

It was ordered that they be laid on the table, and that the report be printed.

BUILDING SOCIETlES (AMENDM·ENT) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) , was read a first time.

SEEDS BILL. The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER

(Minister of Agriculture) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

Honorable members will no doubt be aware that the seed industry in this State, as indeed throughout Australia, has undergone significant development during recent years. One of the most important factors inducing this change is the growing recognition throughout the agricultural community of the need for high-quality seed as the basis for productive crop and pasture growth. Sound farming management involves a farmer in much careful work in preparing land for a new crop or pasture and, indeed, in considerable cost. Ploughing, cultivating, fertilising and carrying out weed and insect control measures are essential elements in this programme. But all are wasted if the seed used is inferior-inferior in varietal purity or trueness to type or in physical purity and germ inability.

This situation is recognized in all progressive agricultural countries, and in recent years there have been large changes in seed technology in many countries of the world. Associated with this technological development has been a parallel development in regulatory matters ass'Ocia ted with seed's, tthe1reby en'suring that seed of the highest quality 'is available to the buyer.

One of the more important agricultural developments in recent years has been the production of increasing numbers of new crop and pasture varieties as a result of plant-breeding activities. and Australia has not been backward in this direction. It falls

4190 Seeds [COUNcn..] Bill.

to the lot of the seed industry to ensure correct and adequate multiplication of the seed of these plants in order to provide for commercial requirements.

The development of bodies such as the International Seed Testing Association and the seed certification schem'es of the Organizati'OTI fior Economic Co-operation and Development give evidence of world interest in the production and supply of seed of the highest quality. Australia, of course, has been am1ember of the former body for many years and 'Our seed tes,Nng procedures are in accord with th'os'e approved by the Internati'Onal Seed Testing Association. Honorable members will be interested to know that Australia's application to join the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development seed certification scheme was recently approved and we will now be eligible to place labels of international standing on exported seed of many herbage species. Membership of these bodies provides the Australian seed industry with a recognized means of actively trading in overseas markets on an equal basis with other exporting countries.

While a sizeable market exists for seed within our own country, there is every indication of an increasing potential for export of seed, and although this has had the effect of encouraging production, it has also increased awareness of the need for a high-quality product if these export markets are to be obtained on a continuing basis.

Seed is, by and large, a perishable commodity. While under optimum conditions the viability of some seeds can be maintained for many years, under the normal conditions prevailing in commerce, particularly when storage conditions may not be ideal, the viability of seed can be reduced rapidly and conSiderably. For practical purposes viability is measured by the percentage germination of the seed. The Hon. G. L. Chandler

There is, too, the factor of the physical purity of the seed. This refers to the absence of seeds other than the crop seed in question, more particularly weed seeds-which can be so readily spread in this way-and seeds of other crops. The purchaser of seeds is not always able readily to evaluate the physical purity of seed by eye. He is almost certainly unable to determine the germinability of the seed. His interest will be in obtaining seed which will always be of high quality. It will be true to variety, will be free from weeds and extraneous matter and will germinate well.

This requires legislation designed to assure the purchaser that the seed he buys will conform with certain minimum standards of purity and germination which are laid down in regulations. Seed which falls below these standards should not be sold, and the responsibility should fall on the vendor to ensure that the seed is true to name and conforms with the appropriate standards.

This is the basic philosophy behind the Seeds Act, which has remained virtually unaltered for some 35 years. It is now apparent, however, that the developments within the industry are such that some major changes are required, and the opportunity has been taken to up-date the legislation in the Bill now before the House. The changes are such that the best course is to substitute a complete new Act rather than to attempt amendment of the present Act.

Before discussing the individual clauses I wish to make reference to the concept of seed insofar as the Bill is concerned. A seed can be many things but its prime purpose is to transmit plant characteristic'S and to act as the forerunn'er 'Of a whO'le new population of plants. For the purpose of the Bill seed is accepted in this llight---<the legiiS'lation refers to seed sold or intended for sale for the purpose of sowing. But seeds are also sold commercially for other than plant reproduction and there has, in fact, been considerable discussion

Seeds [23 MARCH, 1971.] Bill.· 4191

concerning the desirability of including in this Bill powers to control seed which is sold for stockfeed or other similar purposes-that is seed clearly sold for other than sowing. Interest in this category of seed is centred almost exclusively on controlling the spread of diseased seed and injurious weed seed because obviously varietal purity and germination are of little or no consequence.

While it is agreed that this is of concern to agriculture, generally it is the view of all concerned with the preparation of this Bill that the inclusion of powers relating to seeti sold for other than sowing would be confusing because many of the components of seed quality which go to make a desirable product for plant reproduction are not required when the seed is used for other purposes. It is therefore proposed that the need for legislation in regard to seed used for non-sowing purposes be further investigated and appropriate steps taken, if necessary, to prepare further legislation at a later date.

In the Bill many of the provisions of the present Act are included without alteration. In some places opportunity has been taken to clarifiy certain procedures by rewriting or rearranging clauses. Significant new principles in the Bill are three in number. The first is compulsory examination of aJI seed prior to sale in relation to physical purity and germination and follow-up examination at prescribed periods. The second is the inclusion of seed mixtures and the third is the registration of all seed cleaning plants.

Some notable deletions are that the words "seed for sowing" are no longer required to be placed on the parcel or label and that the name and address of the vendor is not necessary on the parcel or label provided that a reference mark is used to link the line of seed with the invoice. There have been some changes and clarification in the clauses dealing with sampling and testing of seed and particularly in follow-up procedures

when the person who sent the sample is advised that the seed is below srtandard. Opportunity has als'O been taken to raise penalties to a more realistic figure.

The legislation now proposed has been widely discussed with the industry, and in particular with the Seeds Industry Advisory Committee, a committee which I appointed some years ago to advise the Department of Agriculture on matters relating to the growing seeds industry. Industry recommendations have been carefully considered, and I believe that the Bill now presented is essentially in accord w,ith industry thinking.

I now turn to the clauses of the Bill. As I have already indicated the Bill refers to seed which is sold or intended to be sold for the purpose of sowing; it restricts itself to seed which is to be used for reproductive purposes and is not concerned with seed which may be used for other purposes, such as human or animal consumption.

Sub-clause (1) of clause 4 clearly sets out that all reference to seeds must be read as a reference to seeds sold or intended for sale for sowing. There are two points of specific interest here. The first concerns the word "sale" and this is given adequate definition in clause 3, with a further 'clarification in sub-clause (2) of clause 4, which relates to certain contractual arrangements for seeds whereby processors, particularly vegetable processors, supply seed to growers.

The second point concerns the nomination of seed as seed for sowing. Seed is considered to be seed for sowing unless it is otherwise designated and the vendor is given the responsibility of this designation in sub-clause (5).

Exemptions in sub-clause (3) relate to seed sold for the purpose of being cleaned when, of course, the seed is unlikely to be of sufficient physical purity, and also to special lines of

4192 Seeds [COUNCIL.] Bill.

seed used in experimental breeding programmes when properly authorized.

An important exemption is also contained in sub-clause (4). The existing Act exempts wheat, oats, barley, cereal rye and maize completely from its provisions. In this Bill the cereals-wheat, oats, barley and cereal rye-are excluded from the Bill's pro~is'ions except when lthey are mixed or intended to be mixed with other kinds of seeds in a proprietary m'iXiture. Later I will discuss the inclusion of seed mixtures within the provisions of the Bill and because many of these mixtures contain seeds of one or more cereals it is important that the cereals come within the provision made for mixtures. Maize is not now considered to be in the same category as the cereals listed above and has not been excluded from the Bill.

In regard to the sale of cereal seeds for sowing, there has been some concern that weed seeds, particularly seeds of noxious weeds, can be spread in these crop seeds and for this reason the view has been expressed that the cereals when sold as lines of pure seed, especially when intended for use as cover or fodder crops in pastoral districts, should be subject to this legislation. At this stage sufficient evidence is not available to show that this is a problem, and there is already a fair degree of control in the production of much of the cereal seed used for crop production, but I have agreed to have the matter investigated and should this investigation show that the spread of weed seeds through cereal seeds is a real danger, consideration will be given to including cereals within the scope of the legislation.

Clause 5 sets out the requirements which must be met before seed as defined in the Bill can be sold. A number of changes are made to these requirements.' In paragraph (a) of sub-clause (1) reference is made to labelling. In all seed legislation correct labelling of the seed is regarded as one of the key measures. The The Hon. G. L. Chandler

Bill requires that all seed sold shall be labelled correctly and the information to be shown on the label is laid down. I will deal with the detailed requirements of labelling later under sub-clause (2) of this clause.

Paragraph (b) of sub-clause (1) provides that the seeds must be of the kind stated on the label, thereby placing on the vendor the responsibility of properly identifying the seed he is selling. This has always been a requirement. Paragraphs (c) and (d) concern measures additional to the present legislation. The most important aspect dealt with in these paragraphs is the requirement that all seed must be examined for purity, germination and any other prescribed quality before it is sold. The paragraphs set out respectively the requirements for seed produced and cleaned in Victoria anJ seed other than in this category, which by and large refers to seed imported into the State.

Seed that falls below certain levels of purity and germination cannot be sold in Victoria and this has always been so. Indeed, this applies in most other States of Australia, and the standards of purity and germination which seed must reach before sale are almost identical throughout the nation. These standards are recommended by the meeting of chief seed testing and regula tory officers from each State held every three years.

The assessment of any line of seed in relation to these standards can be made only by a test carried out by a trained seeds analyst. The existing legislation requires that seed shall conform with set standards but makes no one provi'sion for testing a.s a requirement of sale. Testing or examination of all seed is now introduced as a requirement and this will mean that a certificate of purity and germination will be available for every line of seed offered for sale for sowing.

This is considered to be a most important aspect of the legislation. BecaUSe it is difficult, if not impossible, for the average seed buyer to

Seeds [23 MARCH, 1971.] Bill. 4193

assess seed quality, it is important that all available information concerning that seed should be available to him, and in this respect the legislation is merely confirming what has become a growing industry trend to test seed regularly and to place considerable emphasis on the certificate of analysis.

Paragraph (c) also requires that the samples of seed submitted for analysis shall have been taken in a satisfactory manner. Proper sampling to achieve a fully representative sample is basic to a meaningful examination result and, accordingly, the manner of sampling will be prescribed and proper identification of the sample will also be required. The senior seed testing officer, who is the officer in charge of the department's seed testing station at Burnley Gardens, is nominated to receive all samples, conduct such examination as required and advise the results thereof.

This requirement for compulsory examination will mean an increase in the number of samples processed by the seed testing station. There will also be an increase resulting from the requirement for re-examination of seed at prescribed periods, as provided for in paragraph (h) of subclause (1) . For most seeds this period will be not more than twelve months, and the re-examination will be largely concerned with germination, which is the factor affected by time and storage conditions. The extent of the increase is not considered to be great as the larger proportion of seed moving in commerce is already examined. Re-examination will, of course, relate only to ~eed unsold after that period.

Paragraph (d) provides for recognition of certificates of analysis from seed testing stations outside Victoria when such stations are approved by the Minister. This, of course, relates to seed imported into the State.

Paragraphs ( e) and' (f) provide that seed shall conform with speCific standards. This is basically as at present, except that the concept of

pure seed is introduced in sub-paragraph (i) of paragraph (e) according to international seed testing rules and agreed to throughout Australia. Pure seed of the crop concerned is, of course, of prime importance to the purchaser and is a meaningful addition. The term "injurious weed seeds" is introduced here rather than the terms " prohibited" and " restricted" weed seeds as presently used. The latter terms, simply because of their connotation, sometimes create difficulty in use and do not permit ready use of tolerances and allowances where such are permitted.

An additional requirement in subparagraph (iv) of paragraph (e) is that relating to prescribed diseases. The presence of seed-borne disease is assuming greater importance, particularly in relation to overseas trade, as laboratory detection methods are developed and refined. Diseases will be prescribed and in some cases a tolerance of diseased seeds may be allowed where it is considered appropriate.

In paragraph (g) reference is made to seed mixtures which now clearly come within the terms of the legislation. The requirement here is for the contents of the parcel to conform, within tolerances to be prescribed, with the stated percentage composition on the parcel or label. I will comment further on seed mixtures under labelling requirements in subclause (2). Paragraph (h) provides for any other standards which may be required to be prescribed and also for re-examination of seeds as discussed earlier.

Sub-clause (2) of clause 5 refers to labelling and the information which must be included on the label or parcel of seeds. This is of considerable importance because to the average buyer the statements made on the label or parcel are the criteria used in making a decision to purchase. The vendor is responsible for this information being accurate and he commits an offence if it is not.


One "significant omission from the present legislation is that the words "seeds "for sowing" will not be required to be placed on the parcel -or label or on the invoice as at present. The Act refers to seed which is intended for sowing, and the requirement that words to this effect be placed on the parcel merely provides opportunity for any line of seed to be exempted from the provisions of the Act when the appropriate words do not appear. Under sub-clause (5) of clause 4, it is the vendor's responsibility to prove that any seed is not intended for sale for 'sowing.

"A further deletion is the removal of the requirement for the vendor's name to be on the parcel or label. For economic reasons, a seed container is frequently re-used, often by a number of vendors, and stencilled names and addresses on bags can be an embarrassment. The need to change labels each time a" merchant to merchant sale occurs also presents difficulties. Therefore, appropriate markings to identify the 'seed with the original line of seed and with the invoice; which will carry the vendor's name and address, are considered to be sufficient.

The name of the kind of seed in the parcel must, as at present, be clearly apparent on the parcel or label. Paragraph (c) of sub-clause (2) relates to additional labelling requirements for hybrids and seed mixtures. With hybrids the name of the particular hybrid variety must be stated, and hybrid "names must never be used when not applicable.

Seed mixtures represent an important facet of trade in agricultural seeds and it is es'sential that the legislation 'should clearly control their sale. The individual constituents of the mixture must conform with the germination requirements for that kind of seed and the whole must meet the standards for foreign ingredients. The parcel or label must be clearly marked with the words "seed" mixture" to distinguish "it" ftom pure lines of seed, The Hon. G. L. Chandler

and the individual constituents together with their percentage of the total must be clearly listed. These special labelling requirements will not apply where pure lines of seed are sold to a purchaser and then mixed for his convenience.

Paragraph (d) of 'Sub-clause (2) refers to a rather specific aspect of seed marketing-the small packet trade, which is particularly designed for home gardens. Present labelling requirements are such that the vendor must place the year of harvest of the seed on the packet. However, this has little meaning for the average buyer,· and the Bill provides for a statement to be placed on the packet showing when the seed is due to be re-examined. I t will be prescribed that this can be written on the packet in 'Some form such as " Seed good until ...... ". Except the most perishable seeds this would be a period not exceeding twelve months from the last examination, which is considered to be a realistic period for seed often 'stored under poor conditions, particularly small vegetable seeds which are known to have a' quite "limited life ~xpectancy.

Paragraph (e) of 'sub-clause' (2) relates specifically to prescribed horticultural seeds, which for the most part would be vegetable seeds, when they· are to be sold other than in home garden packets. Those associated with the vegetable growing industry, and particularly growers producing crops which are to" be machine harvested and growers using new precision seeding techniques, are concerned to have adequate -information about the quality of the seed t6, be used, and to have it available at the time of the 'Sale. To meet this special need it is proposed that the month and year of the last germina tion test prior to packaging should appear on the parcel or label together "with the actual germination percen tage revealed· by that test. Intending purchasers will then be able


to ask for the latest germination test if the re-examination period has elap:sed. Paragraph (f) permits prescribing 'Of any 'Other particulars concerned with labelling.

Sub-clause (3) requires the maintenan'ce of records relating to the sa'le of seeds and includes transactions, treatments given ,to seed and results 'Of exam'inations carried out by 'the sen'ior seed testing officer. This is an additi'Onal requirement t'O the pres'ent legislation but 'One which accords with normal business practice. Seed sold through what might best be termed the "sma'll packet" trade is exempted from these latter provisions by virtue 'Of sub-clause (4).

The provisions in clause 6 represent an additi'On to the existing legislation and relate to procedures which are c'Onsidered essential to the proper maintenance of c'Ontrol 'Over the sale of seed. The clause lays down certain procedures to be followed When seed submitted for test pri'Or to being put on sale is found not to c'Omply with the standards required.

Whereas at present the person who submits the sample receives a statement 'Of results, he is given no guidance 'Or instruc~ion on the fate of the seed. Thus there is no c'Ontrol over the disposal of such seed and, while mostly the factor causing the sub-standard condition is rectIfied if this is possible, it is als'O at this point that sub-standard seed can find its way 'On to the market. It is then probably only detected by purchaser complaint 'Or in the course of routine inspection by an 'officer. Acc'Ordingly, by having provided for compulsory testing 'Of aU lines of seed, the legislation can als'O logically provide follow-up procedures if seed fails to comply with the requirements.

Sub-C'lause (1) sets out the manner in which the pers'On who submitted the seed will be advised that the seeds do n'O't comply, and also sets out the nature of the advice to be

sent to him. The remaining subclauses c'Oncern the procedures to be then adoplted. '"!

Sub-clause (2) deals with diseased seed where the disease is such that further cleaning of the seed is not permitted. This will apply in slituati'Ons where the disease caus'es no physical change in the seed and therefore n'O possibility exists 'Of separating diseased and n'On-diseased seeds by cleaning. In such cases the seed will be destroyed, denatured or dispoS'ed of in s'Ome manner which does not contravene the Act. If the vendor elects to destroy or denature the seed he must make a statutory declaration to the Director of Agriculture imm'ediately after such acti'On is taken. If 'Opportunity exists to dispose of the seed in another manner, without c'Ontravention 'Of the legis'lation, the Director of Agriculture must be advised of the details and if such disposal is within Victoria, he must give his approval. Sub-clause (3) relates to this latter p'Oint.

Sub-c1aus'e (4) relates to seed where no res'tr-ic:tion is imposed on fu:rt!her cleaning or treatment as a means of making the s'e'ed comply with the provisions 'Of the Act, and a number of op~i'Ons are 'in fact given. In many cases, cleaning 'Or 'treatment in s'Ome form would be carried out and, as provided in paragraph (a), a further sample must then be submitted after cleaning or treatment. Should such cleaning 'Or treatment be impracticable within Ithe required period of twenty days, the Director of Agricu1itJure must be notified of the intention to reclean or treat the seeds. ,This p'rovisi'On appears in sub-clause (5).

Where recleaning or treatment is not carried out for technical or economic reasons, alternative approaches are provided for in paragraph (b). These are destructi'On, dena turing or disposal under the same condiHons as set out in sub-clause (2).

4196 Seeds [COUN~.] Bill.

I make it clear that the Bill does not seek to restrict th'e pos'S'ihHity of sale of non-complying seed outside the State of Victor.ia should such opp'Ortun~ity exis1t. In this situation the seed would need ito conform with the appropriate standards 'Of the State or country conC'emed.

Claus'e 7 relate'S to the requirement that an 'invoice must be given within seven days of the 'Sal'e of seed except in the cas'e 'Of smaH packets which are covered by a weight 'Or value e'xemption. BasicaUy, the invoice provisions rem'ain the' same as in the present Act in that the kind of seed must b'e cl'e:arly sta'ted with specific menti'On being made 'Of hybrids and seed mixtures. Addirti'onally itt is required 'that the name and address· of the vendor must appear together with sufficient 'informati'On to line th'e inv'Oic'e with the parcel of seed. This particularly applies ;to 'the reference brand and mark which is on the parcel or label.

A Significant additi'On, in paragraph (e) of 'Sub-clause (2), is that the invoic'e must 'Sh'Ow the date of the m'Ost 'recent germination Itest carried out on a sample of the seed 'together with the result 'Of 'that Itest. This information cannot be required 'On the parcel or label becaus'e of the high cost of changing it every time a test is made. It is, however, imperative that the information be placed on 'the invoice in 'Order that the date when the seeds must be re-examined is dearly 'apparent.

In the, case 'Of prescribed hOI'1ticultural 'S'e'ed's, if the invoke is not delivered with the seeds, the vendor must deliver a docket with 'the seeds bearing the information required on the invoice. This is 'in order that the purchas'er 'Of horticultural seeds may have as much informati'On as p'Ossible before s'Owing the seed. Particularly in the cas'e of c'Ontract crops, the seed 'is oi1ten not deJ:ivered till The Hon. G. L. Chandler

t'h'e day of sowing, and a seven-day de'lay in learning of the germination is 'nolt acc'eptable.

As is the case in the pres'ent Act, clause 8 lays down that any statement made on any parcel, label, Dr on any documents relating to a sale of seeds is in fact a warranty by the vendor that the particulars are true and correct. Honorable members will note a reference in sub-clause (2) to t'Olerances in relation to !the results of tests c'Onducted on seled. Reference to tolerances is als'O made in other places, such as in the ch'ecking of s'eed mixtures.

I should l'ike to c'Omment on tolerances at this sltage and poinltorut that any test carried out on s'eeds is performed on a sample drawn in a predetermined manner based 'On statistiCal probabi'lities. Sh'Ould a test be performed 'On a 'S'econ'd sample drawn from the same lin'e of seed, due allowance muslt be made for statistical variation When comparing the two results. Hence, a s'eries of tolerance tables will be prescribed by regulation for the several situations where this type of comparison is made. These will be used in determining whether any slight difference between the results of two samples is real or wilthin the normal variati'On of s'ampling. Sub-clause (3) has been added to make it C'!'ear that despite any statement to the contrary-for examp'l'e 'On a seed parcel---4:he warranty c'Ontained in sub-c1aus'e (1) has the f'Orce 'Of law.

Clause 9 is unchanged from the present legislaJtion which provides that the Minister shaH admini'S,ter p.art V. 'Of the Go'Ods Act 1958 in so far as it relates to seeds within the meaning of the Seeds Act or to trade descriptions in relation to such seeds.

Clauses 10 to 15 relate to the rights of any person in possession of seed to have a sample of the seed examined, the procedures to be adopted


in sampling and submitting a test, and the powers of an officer to inspect seed. While the same basic powers have been provided as before" there has been some clarification and addition.,

Clause 10 enables any person to have seed examined and to receive a report on that seed. This includes seed "not for sowing" because the seed testing station frequently examines such seeds for weed content and possibly other factors and submits a report to the owner. Subclauses (2) and (3) take cognizance of the variation in sampling which can occur. Many people submit samples, often purely as a matter of interest, but there is frequently some doubt as to the correctness of the sampling technique. In this case neither the statement of results nor the results themselves may be used for trade purposes or advertising. If, however, the sample is taken correctly and properly 'marked to identify it with the seed the statement and results may be used for trade purposes, except that the statement itself or a copy may not be used for advertising purposes. This is to avoid any inference" that the statement of examination implies recommendation of the seeds by the Department of Agriculture.

In clause 11 the procedure is laid down for the purchaser of seed who wishes to have a sample tested with a view to legal proceedings. While the principle here remains unaltered, the practice has been amended to the extent that all samples in such cases will be taken by an officer rather than by the purchaser, again giving e:t:nphasis to the importance placed on correct sampling procedure. Accordingly the purchaser would make an appropriate request to the Director of Agriculture as set out in subclauses (2) and" (3) and the director would arrange for the sampling to' be undertaken by an officer following advice to the parties concerned.

Clause 12 relates generally to the powers of an officer to inspect seed. I wish to draw 'attention to the link between this clause and clause 6. It will be recalled that the earlier clause specifies that all seed must be tested before being sold and should it fail to comply at that point the owner is informed that he must take appropriate action to make the lot of seed comply. If an officer subsequently detects sub-standard seed on sale, the vendor in 99 cases out of 100 would be committing an offence knowingly even more so" than at present where no specific direction is given to the person preparing seed for sale. Clause 12 should therefore be considered with the provisions of clause 6 in mind.

In so far as the situations where an officer may inspect seed are concerned, sub-clause (1) is basically unchanged. Some additional powers are included and these are that the officer may require a person to produce records pertaining, to seeds and inspect and take copies of such records, may sample seed, which is being inspected and transmit the sample for examination, and may detain as well as seize seed. This latter inclusion is, of course, a practical one in that large lines of seed cannot be physically transported away. Whereas the officer can at present seize seeds which "appear to him" to be unfit for use, the new wording will be "detain or seize seeds which do not comply or which he reasonably suspects do not comply . . . .". The reasons for the seizure or detention must be, given to the owner of the seeds in writing. Sub-clause (2) requires the officer to close and secure a parcel to the best" of his ability when such parcel has been opened.

In sub-clause (3) a changed procedure is introduced concerning seed which is seized or detained because the seed itself is in doubt. The present requirement that the matter


shall be brought before a justice for decision is removed and' instead the officer is required to use a prescribed form to advise the owner of the seizure or detention, including the reasons for this action, and immediately submit a sample for examination. If the results show that the seed complies with the requirements of the Act, sub-clause (4) requires that the seed must be released immediately.

However, if the seeds do not comply the action to be taken is set out in sub-clause (5). Paragraph (a) requires that the officer shall inform the owner that the seeds are substandard; paragraph (b) that he shall detain or seize the seeds if this has not already been done; and paragraph (c) that he shall then consult with the owner before making a report and recommendation to the director as to the action the owner should be required to take. This last provision is to give the owner an opportunity to indicate what he thinks could best be done with the seed. The director would then advise the owner of the action required.

Provision for appeal to the Minister is contained in sub-clause (7), and in sub-clause (8) it is provided that, either following the direction given by the director or notification of the Minister's decision when an appeal is made, the owner shall comply with the direction or decision within 30 days and advise the director in the form 'Of a statutory declaration.

Sub-claus1e (9) refers 'f!0 seed which may not comply with the Act due to incorrect labelling, as distinct from the quality. of the seed, and requires that the owner shall make the labels comply before the seed is released from detention. Sub-clause (lO) preserves the right of an officer to institute legal proceedings in relation to sub-standard seed being sold. I reiterate that when an officer finds sub-standard seed on sale an offence has in all probability been committed The Hon. G. L. Chandler

and, while the owner is given the opportunity of redeeming the product, the right to prosecute at this paint must also be available.

In clause 13 provision is made for obtaining samples of seed normally retailed in small packets. The officer may in this case purchase packets of seed for the purpose of taking samples. This acknowledges the considerable financial loss to a small retailer when a high proportion of packets is taken as a sample. Normally four packets are required for this purpose.

Clause 14 sets out the procedure to be followed when a sample of seeds is to be taken for the purposes of the Act. It draws together in one place procedures which in the present Act are repeated each time a situation requiring such action occurs. The clause relates particularly to the situation where legal action may be envisaged and where reference samples are required in addition to the sample actually being tested. This is made clear in sub-clause (9) where samples submitted under the provisions of clauses 5, 10 and 15 are exempted. They are exempted because in these situations-that is, submission of a sample before sale, submission of a sample for interest purposes only or routine check sampling by an officer-a single sample only is required and there are substantial practical difficulties in taking and keeping reference samples. I would point out, however, that in these exempted cases the manner of taking the sample, that is, the actual method of obtaining a true statistical sample, will be prescribed by regulation.

Sub-clauses (1) to (9) therefore make clear the procedure to be followed in taking and handling samples, including the identification of the sample and disposition of the three samples to appropriate parties. Subclause (lO) makes it clear that unless express permission is given at any point in the Bill no statement of

Seeds [23 MARCH, 197~.] Bill. 4199

results or a copy of same or the results themselves may be used for trade purposes or as an advertisement. It will be recalled, for example that 'in clause 10 such expres~ permission was given.

Clause 15, as the last of this related group of clauses, gives power to an office~ to take. single ,s~mples, usually for hIS own mformatIon, as distinct from the procedure in clause 14 and without detaining or seizing seed as in clause 12. He would not be able to take any action against a vendor . on the basis of such a sample but if it indicated trouble he wouid proceed as in clause 14.

Clause 16 is virtually unchanged from the provisions in the current Act and provides that where a contravention of any of the provisions of the Act is proved in regard to a sample such contravention shall be deemed to have .. been proved with regard to the whole from which the sample was taken.

Clause 17 is additional, but seeks only to clarify a situation which has previously prevailed-that all seeds imported into -Victoria shall bef{)re being sold in Victoria comply with the requirements of the Act. This kind of provision is recognized as not being in conflict with section 92 of the Commowealth Constitution.

Seed certification is, without doubt, one of the most important services rendered to the seed industry. Schemes have operated in Victoria for many years in relation to pasture 'seeds, onions and F'rench beans. Certifica tion rela tes primarily to varietal purity, and the' scheme provides a mechanism whereby the varietal integrity of seed which is produced from an approved crop is maintained throughout harvesting and processing. Certification may also refer to freedom from' or immunity to disease.

The wording of clause 18, which refers to c-erti1jcation, has been slightly changed to expand the now

somewhat restrictive connotation of the word " strain ". Provision has also been made for certification as to freedom from prescribed diseases in addition to resistance or immunity. The inclusion of this is necessary Qecause of the requirements of . many overseas phytosanitary certIficates that a declaration of disease freedom as distinct from disease r·esistance be made. The increasing movement of seed on world markets highlights the need for a guarantee of disease freedom in all certification schem'es .

Clauses .} 9 and 20 restrict the use of ~ny ~ords which might imply c~rtIficatlOn as to varietal purity or dIsease freedom in seed which is not so certified. Recogni tion of other certification schemes is not restricted, .as at present, to 'Government-controlled schemes, for in certain countries schemes are conducted by Government-approved crop improvement associations.

In clause 19' the present requirement that a parcel of seed certified in another State of Australia shall be labelled with the name of the State of origin has been omitted as has the requirement to include the name of that Stat~ in any invoice, agreement or advertisement. Instead, the requirement win be that the invoice carries a statement that the seed has been certified in' Australia.

The high level of uniformity of certification procedures and quality st~ndards betwe'en States, together WIth the now extensive movement of seed between States makes this change desirable. Certified seed from other countries must still bear the name of the country on the parcel and all docum,ents which must accompany the seed as is the case at present.

CI·ause 21 is a completely new c.lause which relates to the registratIon of seed cleaning plants. At present, ,there is, no requirement under the Seeds Act for such plants


to be registered in any form. Almost aU seed sold requires to be cleaned after it is harvested. ThiS cleaning process removes all extraneous material which inevitably occurs in freshly-harvested seed, and such is the ability of men and machines in this field of endeavour that very pure lines of crop seeds can usually be produced.

Because virtually all seed must be cleaned, the seed-cleaning plant becomes, in effect, the eentre pOint from which all seed destined for sale emanates. By virtue of earlier provisions of the Bill which seek to ensure maintenance of quality standards, it is important that officers charged with the task of implementing these provisions are Iaware of the source of any seed line. Unfortunately, at present many inferior lines of seed are intercepted only after a sale has been made and a purchaser is aggrieved or during routine inspections when trace-back to the original offender has often become impossible.

Often the location of seed cleaning plants, particularly smaller plants, is unknown to officers and there is a consequent difficulty in stopping the appearance of inferior seed on the market. The basic concept of registration is therefore one of knowing the location of each plant in the State, together with information concerning its capabilities. Apart from this basic reason, it would seem that an advantage of registration to potential clients of any seed cleaning plant would be the requirement of annual publication of a list of plants, together with the purposes for which each seed cleaning plant is registered.

Additionally, of course, there is the matter of cleaning certified seed where absolute integrity of the seed must be maintained. Registration will assist the Department of Agriculture to designate plants for cleaning these higher categories of seed. It is therefore intended that all plants shall be registered on an annual basis subject to their ability to clean seed to, at least, the minimum standards The Hon. G. L. Chandler

required under the Act and, where seeds are to be stored, to have satisfactory storage facilities. Various categories of registration will enable certain plants to be registered for the cleaning of one or more classes of seed.

. The definition of a seed cleaning plant appears at length in clause 3, and care has been taken to exclude harvesting machines when in use as harvesters, but they become liable to registration if they are used as stationary plants to clean seed for sale. It is intended that the fee to be prescribed shall be nominal and initially will not exceed $10 per annum.

Clause 21 relates to this subject and contains twelve sub-clauses. Having established the requirement that all seed cleaning plants must be registered, the Bill then provides that a register shall be kept and describes application procedure, renewal and transfer of registration, and right of appeal when the applicant is aggrieved.

Clauses 22 to 31 relate to the legal aspects of sale and prosecution, and are unchanged except that in clauses 22, 24 and 25 reference to police officers in regard to the institution of proceedings is removed.

Clause 32 sets out certain specific offences under the Act and makes provision for penalties, which for specific offences have been raised on the recommendation of the industry from their existing levels to a penalty for a first offence not exceeding $500; for a second offence not exceeding $750; and for each subsequent offence not exceeding $1000; while the penalty for other offences will not exceed $500.

Clause 33 deals with the making of regulations and has been clarified and expanded in accordance with the provisions of the Bill.

The provisions of the Bill take due cognizance of the progress made in the seed industry since legis-

Adjournment [23 MARCH, 1971.] Questions on Notice. 4201

lation was last enacted and, as I said earlier, have been thoroughly discussed with the industry and have its general support. The Bill, if enacted, will assist seed growers and merchants in developing new markets and will give the purchaser a better guarantee that the seed he buys is of the kind and quality he needs.

I have gone through the Bill in detail for the sole purpose of making the information available to all States in Australia. Victoria is a big exporter of seeds. Already inquiries have been received from all over the Commonwealth about the provisions contained in this proposed legislation which, when put into effect, will be of great interest and assistance to those people involved in the sale of seeds.

I particularly commend the work of the Liberal Party committee of which Mr. Gross was the chairman and convenor. The committee has been working on the Bill since about half way through last year and many hours of work have gone into its preparation. I pay tribute to the departments, the committee and to industry representatives with whom the committee has periodically conferred. Now that the Bill has been introduced, I trust that it will be thoroughly investigated by the industry and, where it is desirable, amendments will be accepted; but generally speaking the Bill contains those provisions which are wanted by the industry and are acc'eptable to It. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. D. E. KENT (Gippsland Province) , the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, April 6.

ADJOURNMENT. The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Mini

ster of Agriculture).-By leave, I move-

That the Council, at its rising, adjourn until tomorrow, at a quarter to Three o'clock.

The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at 10.52 p.m.

1E.egislatin.e i\ss.embly. Tuesday, March 23, 1971.


ABSENCE OF THE CLERK. The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon

Christie).-I wish to announce that the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly is for the present prevented by illness from attending meetings of the Assembly.

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-1 move-

That the Clerk-Assistant do perform the duties of the Clerk during his absence, and do takle his chair at the table.


QUESTIONS ON NOTICE. The following answers to quesbions

o.n notice were circulated:-

NATURAL GAS AND OIL. ROYALTIES FROM BASS STRAIT FIELDS.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the Treasurer-

What revenue has been raised by the Government in the form of royalties from the sale of natural gas and oil from Bass Strait and over what period?


The first royalties paid to the Government pursuant to the provisions of the Petrol;eum (Submerged Lands) Act 1967 were received on 1st May, 1969. From that date until the end of February, 1971, the total royalties received amounted to $12,984,926 of which $3,713,052 was paid to th'e Comrnonwealtll Government in accordance with the Petroleum (Submerged Lands) Act.

EXPORTS OF LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) asked the Minister for Fuel and Power-

1. What is the total amount of liquefied petroleum gas ,exported overseas by EssoB.H.P. from liquefied petroleum gas obtained or derived from Bass Strait?

4202 Questions on [ASSEMBLY.] Notice.

2. What overseas companies purchased this gas and in what amounts specifying in each cas~( a) the port of embarkation; (b) the ship carrying such liquefied petroleum gas; (c) the port of destination; and (d) the amount charged per ton in each case?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power).-The answers are-·

1. 200,735 metric tons. 2. It is considered that information re

garding actual clients and individual prices is confidential and should not be disclosed.

(a) All liquefied petroleum gas exported was loaded at the Long Island Point liquids jetty on Westernport Bay.

(b) The following ships have loaded liquefied petroleum gas at Long Island Point:- '

Bridgestone Maru 1-4th July, 1970. Antilla Cape-25th July, 1970. Cypress-22nd August, 1970. Izumisan Maru-17th September, 1970. Izumis'an Maru-17th October, 1970. Phillips Arkansas-14th No:vember,

1970. Bridgestone Marui 2-4th December,

1970. Phillips Arkansas-12th December,

1970. Izumisan Maru-6th January, .1971. BriJdgestone Maru I-26th January',

1971. Bridgestone Maru 2-21st February,

1971.

(c) In all cases the ships weI1e destined for up to four different ports in Japan.

'(b) The over-all average price f.o.b. Long Island Point as valued for royalty purposes is $16.15 a metric ton. By the time freight and insurance costs are added the landed price in Japan can be somewhat higher than that attainable in Melbourne.

Mr. 'HOLDING· (Leader of the Opposition) asked the Treasurer-

1. What amounts have been received Ito date (specifying the amounts in each particular financial year) from royalties in respect of .the production' of Bass Strait oil?

2. On what b&sis these sums 'are paid?

3. Whether it is expected that there will be any increases in these amounts as a result of increases in productivity; if so, what increases?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-The answers are-

1. The gross royalties received in each relevant financial year in respect of all Bass Strait petroleum and the 'amounts paid over to the Commonwealth Government in accordance with the Petroleum (Submerged Lands) Act 1967 and the estimated propor-tion of such royalties which relate to the production of Bass Strait oil are as follows:-

Amount paid to Proportion of - Total royalties Commonwealth royalties in

1968-69 .. .. .. . . 1969-70 .. .. .. .. 1970-71 (to 28th February, 1971) ..

2. Royalty on petroleum recovered from Bass Strait is based on the value at the well head of such petroleum in accordance with the provisions of the Petroleum (Submerged Lands) Act 1967. The rates of royalty are--

~arracoU!ta and Marlin. fields 11 per cent.

Halib~t and Kingfish fields 121 per cent.

3. Yes. The amount of revenue from royalties· is directly related to the level of production, and will increase as production increases. While it is' known tha·t produc-

received. Government. respect of oil production.

$ $ per cent.

1,527 360 10

2,481,647 475,492 99

10,501,752 3,237,200 99·5

tion will increase, it is not possible 'at this stage to give 'firm estimates of the extent of the increase.

STATE FINANCE. PAYMENTS BY COMMONWEALTH.

Mr. :WILKES (Northcote) asked the Treasurer-

What 'adciitionai amounts have been paid to Victoria by the Commonwealth over and above :tax reimbursement grants under the formula and loan moneys, respectively, in each of the ,financial years since 1960?

Questions on (23 MARCH, 1971.] Notice. 4203


1960- 1961- 1962- 1963- 1964- 1965- 196~ 1967- 1968- 1969-61. 62. 63. 64. 65. 66. 67. 68. 69. 70.

------------1--------------------$'000 $'000 $'000 $'000 $'000 $'000 $'000 $'000 $'000 $'000

Universities-For recurrent expenditure .. For capital purposes ..

Colleges of advanced . education-For recurrent expenditure .. For capital purposes ..

Research .. .. .. Independent schools . . . . Teachers' colleges .. Pre-school teachers' colleges .. Science laboratories . . . . Technical training . . . . School libraries .. . . . . Mental health institutions .. Tuberculosis hospitals . . . . Blood transfusion services .. Housekeeper services . • . . Deserted wives .. . . . . Dwellings for aged pensioners .. Aboriginal advancement .. . . Natural disaster payments .. Road safety practices . . . . Agricultural extension services .. Bovine brucellosis and tuberculosis

eradication . . . . . . Tobacco industry extension service .. Disposal of ship's garbage .. Softwood forestry . . . . Water resources investigations .. King River dam . . . .

2,907 3,138

i68 2,275

100 8

'28 264

Salinity reduction .. Commonwealth aid roads Railway projects

:: 18,j67 .. 9,966

Migrant centres ..

3,308 4,101

2.396 105

8

'20 250

20.iS9 8,868

4,104 5,207

2.723 112

8

'20 250

4,916 5,009

2,9(13 121

8

'20 298

7,098 3,288

2.799 2,826

;il 3,083

129 8

'20 310

8,071 4,425

331

2.799 336

1.567 3,252

144 8

'40 20

298

9,211 10,991 12,108 13,960 5,250 6,173 7,072 4,495

1.302 2,788 3.194 4.837 911 2,677 2,350 2,891 615 772 675 864 .. .. .. 3,952 .. 500 1,600 3,250

20 3 2.799 3.S53 3,055 4.037 3,050 5,091 1,550 3,000

500 2,225 t.i92 t.382 1,200 947 3,483 3,397 3,563 3,604

276 176 193 225 8 8 8

23 505

8,000 23

654

225 9,000

23 972

iOl 200 347 205

23 1,027

37 . i5 . i7 .. .. :: :: :: .. .. i20 .. .. 500 300 480 .. .. . 89 . 80 ';7 131 159 163 . . . . .. .. .. 600 8Ag 1,~~g

2";S4 22,824 25,S76 27.508 29,443 31,286 33,113 38,160

2,6~~ : : . i 6 : : : : : : : : : :

37,221 39,215 36,889 36,116 45,953 48,879 58,145 78,702 81,695 90,708

STATES GRANTS (NURSING HOMES) . ACT.

COMMONWEALTH OFFER.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the Treasurer-

1. When the Government intends to accept the Commonwealth Government offer under the States Grants (Nursing Homes) Act 1969?

2. How much Victoria would receive in anyone year?

3. What would be the cost to Victoria in accepting the offer?


1. As I indicated to the House in answer to a question last week the Government is closely examining the offer which was made by the Commonwealth to assess the extent to which it would be possible to participate within the financial resources available to the State.

2. The Commonwealth legislation does not specify an annual amount to each State. It limits the maximum amount which can be paid to Victoria during the five-year period ending on 30th June, 1974,

to $1,374,000. This would be by way of reimbursement to the State of one-half of the capital expenditure by the State on approved projects.

3. $1,374,000 in capital outlay and at the end of four years running costs approaching $1 million a year.

POLICE DEPARTMENT. GREENSBOROUGH POLICE STATION.

Mr. FELL (Greensborough) asked the Chief Secretary-

1. Whether plans and specifications have been prepared for the extensions to Greensborough police station?

2. When it is proposed to construct these extensions?

3. Whether he will arrange for a copy of the plans to be made available to the Shire of Diamond Valley?

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).The answer is-

I have been advised by my colleague, the Minister of Public Works, that plans and specifications have been prepared for the extensions to the Greensborough police station and that a complimentary copy of


the plans will be forwarded to the Shire of Diamond Valley during the ordinary course of events.

At this stage, it is not possible to indicate when work will commence on the extensions as this is dependent upon the provision of funds.

AMPHOMETERS.

Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland) asked the Chief Secretary-

What number of amphometers is owned by the Police Department, specifying how many are in use and how many are inoperative at this date?


Twenty-eight. As at 19th March, 1971, 14 were in operation, 8 were at the Faculty of Engineering, University of Melbourne, for certification as to accuracy after having repairs effected and 6 were undergoing minor repairs.

BREATHALYZERS.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the Chief Secretary-

1. How many breathalyzers there are in Victoria, specifying the number in working order and in use?

2. How many trained breathalyzer operators there are in Victoria and where they are located?

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-The answers are-

1. Sixty-three. As at 19th March, 1971, 51 in working order were allotted to the Breath Analysis Section and various police stations throughout the State, 8 in working order were retained at the Forensic Science Laboratory for training purposes and as exchange units where an instrument allotted to a station requires maintenance and 4 were temporarily out of order ..

2. Approximately 380 members of the force have successfully completed the breathalyzer training course since its inception in 1961 but, as a result of promotions, transfers, retirements, resignations, etc., 127 members of the force are at present carrying out breath testing duties at the following locations:-

Location Number of Members. Melbourne metropolitan

area (Breath Analysis Section) 19-

Ararat . . 2 Bairnsdale 3 Ballarat .. 7 Benalla .. 4 Bendigo.. 8 Camperdown 1

Location Castlemaine Colac .. Croydon .. Dandenong Echuca .. Eildon Ferntree Gully Geelong .. Hamilton Horsham Kilmore .. Kerang Korumburra Kyabram Kyneton Lome .. Mansfield Maryborough Merbein Mildura Moe Morwell Numurkah Ocean Grove Portland Ringwood Sale Seymour Shepparton st. Arnaud Stawell .. Swan Hill Tatura Terang .. Traralgon Wangaratta Warragul Warrnambool Wodonga Wonthaggi Yallourn

Total

Number of Members. 1 4 2 1 1 1 1 9 1 2 1 2 1 1 3 1 1 1 1 3 2 4 1 1 2 2 2 3 4 1 4 2 1 1 1 3 1 4 3-2 1

12't

DRIVING OFFENCES INVOLVING ALCOHOL.


1. How many persons with blood alcohol content exceeding .05 per centum have been charged with being in charge of a vehicle?

2. How many persons have been charged with being drunk in charge of a vehicle since 1st January, 1970?

3. What number of persons charged in each instance were found to have blood alcohol content" in excess of .05 per centum, and what were the levels?


1. There is no offence provided for being in charge of a motor vehicle whilst having a blood alcohol content in excess of .05 per cent. In respect of the offence of drivirig

Questions on [23 MARCH, 1971.] Notice. 4205

a motor vehicle whilst having a blood alcohol content in excess of .05 per cent details are as follows:-

Year. 1966 (as from 1st February, 1966) 1967 1968 1969 .. 1970 ..

Offenders Detected.

1,596 2,876 4,699 5,616 6,878

Information in respect of 1971 is not readily available. To obtain the information would necessitate a physical search of approximately 50,000 traffic offence briefs, some of which are held at, or are in the course of transmission to, various police stations throughout the State in connection with court hearings.

2. During 1970, 85 offences of being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle were detected. In addition, 1,835 offences of driving a motor vehicle whilst under the influence of liquor or drugs were detected. For the reasons previously stated, information in respect of 1971 is not readily available.

3. All persons involved in ~e offences referred to in the answers to parts 1 and 2 had blood alcohol content levels in excess of .05 per cent but statistics concerning the respective levels of blood alcohol content are not kept.

In respect of offenders detected during 1970, by members of the force attached to the Breath Analysis Section, the following details are available:-

Persons charged with both driving a motor vehicle whilst under the influence of intoxicating liquor and driving a motor vehicle whilst having a blood alcohol content in excess of .05 per cent 861

Persons charged with driving a motor vehicle whilst having a blood alcohol content in excess of .05 per cent 3,779

Total persons charged 4,640

Percentage of persons charged who were under the age of 25 years 39.15 per cent.

Average blood alcohol content level of persons under the age of 25 years who were charged .130 per cent.

Average blood alcohol content level of persons charged with driving a motor vehi-

cle whilst having a blood alcohol content level in excess of .05 per cent

Average blood alcohol content level of persons charged with both driving a motor vehicle whilst under the influence of intoxicating liquor and driving a motor vehicle whilst having a blood alcohol content in excess of .05 per cent

.143 per cent.

.209 per cent.

ALCOTEST EQUIPMENT.


l. Whether the alcotest equipment is defined as a breath-analyzing instrument; if so, who will be responsible for certifying to its accuracy?

2. Why results of tests made on alcotest equipment will not be admitted as evidence?


1. No,.

2. Alcotest equipment is not a breath analyzing instrument but a device which gives an approximation only of a person's blood alcohol leViel.. The purpose of the device is to screen motorists suspected of being under the influence of alcohol to determine whether a person should be I1equired to submit a sample of his breath for analysis.

OFFENCES INVOLVING PROBATIONARY DRIVERS.


1. How many first-year probationary drivers have been charged for not displaying "P" plates?

2. How many first-year probationary drivers haVie been charged for displaying only one "P" plate?


1 and 2. Statistics as to whether persons holding first-year probationary. licences did not display any "P" plates or only displayed one "P" plate on their vehicles, contrary to the provisions of sub-section (4A) of section 22B of the Motor Car Act 1958, are not kept.


However, the following offences against these provisions have been detected:-

Year. Offences Detected.

1969 1143 (as from 1st March, 1969) 1970 2686 Information in respect of 1971 is not

readily available.

PORT WELSHPOOL. EXPLOSION ON M. V. Western Spruce.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Attorney-General-

When the Government proposes to take legal action against a person or persons as a result of an explosion and fire on the M. V. Western Spruce at Port Welshpool on 22nd March, 1969?

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).The answer is-

Proceedings will be commenced as soon as the necessary documents have been prepal'!ed. This is being done at present in consultation with counsel.

PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT. MATTHEW FLINDERS GIRLS HIGH

SCHOOL, GEELONG.

Mr. BIRRELL (Geelong) asked the Minister of Education-

When tenders will be called for building additions to Matthew Flinders Girls High School, Geelong, and what is the reason for the long delay in commencing this building programme?


The delay in calling tenders for this project has been caused by the magnitude of the Education Department's building programme, and the substantial alterations made to the plans for Matthew Flinders Girls High School.

In the pl'!eparation of documents emphasis has been placed upon those projects which will meet the needs of new enrolments and also schools where the children have been housed entirely in temporary class-rooms for a number of years.

However, the Public Works Department has been asked to expedite this project and has placed it in the hands of private architects for documentation. It is anticipated that tenders will be called as soon as possible.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. BELMONT PRIMARY SCHOOL.

Mr. BIRRELL (Geelong) asked the Minister of Education-

With regaro to the property at 51 Mount Pleasant Road, Belmont, Geelong, adjacent to Belmont Primary School No. 26-( 01) when negotiations. by the Education Department to purchase the property will be finalized; (b) when it wiH be handed over to the school; (c) what the department proposes to do with the house and other improvements; and (d) what improvements, if any, will be effected before and/or after the property is taken over?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education).-The answer is-

(a) Settlement was effected on 18th September, 1970, with an agreement that the owner could remain in occupation of the residence for a reasonable period pending availability of alternative accommodation.

(b) and (c) As soon as vacant possession is obtained and the house and other improvements have been demolished.

(d) No improvements to the land are planned at this stage other than the clearing of the area.

ENTRY STANDARD FOR TEACHERS' COLLEGES: STUDENTSHIP

ApPLICATIONS.

Mr. FELL (Greensborough) asked the Minister of Education-

1. What is the present minimum acceptable standard for entry of students to teachers' colleges?

2. How many ;teaching studentship applications were received for 1971?

3. How many studentships were accepted this year and in each of the past three years?

4. What number of students withdrew prior to completing training in each of the past three years?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education).-The answers are-

1. For certain teachers' college courses, (e.g. Trained Primary Teacher's Certificate course) the minimum acceptable standard for entry is five leaving certificate subjects, including English. .

In practice, as a result of competition for places, the minimum standard for entry is a pass in the higher school certificate examination at a good D level.

Questions 'on [23 MARCH, 1971.] Notice~ 4207

. For other teachers' college courses (e.g. Higher Diploma of Teaching (Secondary) course) the minimum requirement is a pass in the higher school certificate examination at university level. A very goo.d pass level is required in most co~rses as a result of competition for places.

2. 13,758 studentship applications were received for 1971.

3. Studentships accepted were--1968 1969 1970 1971 3979 4431 5084 4771

4. The number of studentship withdrawals (relinquishments) from cancellations for the year 1968 was not recorded separately.

For 1969 the number of withdrawals (relinquishments) registered was 367.

The number of relinquishments registered for 1970 is not yet available.

DIAMOND CREEK. EAST PRIMA~Y SCHOOL.


1. Whether plans have been prepared and contracts let for paving construction at Diamond Creek East Primary School and what are the details; if not, When paving will be provided at the school?

2. When plans will be prepared for site works and what provision will be made for off-street parking at the school?


1 and 2. Plans and specifications have not been prepared nor have contracts been let for site works at ,the Diamond Creek East Primary School. It is expected tender documents will be ready for advertisement later this year.

The work will include normal paving and drainage around class-rooms. Preliminary site works have been provided as a temporary measure. In line with current policy off-street parking will not be provided but the principal may permit teachers to park their cars within the school grounds, if practical.

ELTHAM PRIMARY SCHOOl,..

Mr. FELL (Greensborough) asked the Minister 'Of Education-

1. What is the estimated completion date for the new toilet block in course of construction at Eltham :Primary School No. 209?

. 2. Whether provision has been made in the contract for the construction of a new sewage treatment plant?

3. Whether the contract provides for the demolition of the existing toilet block and treatment tank; if not, when they will be removed?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .':'-':The answers are-

1. 30th April, 1971. 2. No. 3. The contract provides for the demo

lition of the existing toilet block but not the treatment tank. It is not planned that the existing system be replaced as it is operating satisfactorily.

GREENWOOD HIGH SCHOOL.

. JWr. FELL (Greensborough) ask~d the Minister 'Of Educati'Ou-

Further to 1;lis answer to question No. 29, asked in this House on Wednesday, lOth March, 1971-

1. What buildings are included in the present stage of construction of Greenwood High School?

2. When site works will be commenced and completed and what is the extent of these works?

3. When paths from boundaries to buildings will be provided?


1. The following bui'ldings are included in the present stage of construction:-

Block E, comprising students centre, kitchen, change room, switch room, two stores, male toilets and female toilets.

Block F, comprising male locker room, male toilet, 'female locker room, female toilet, boiler room, incinerator and store ..

Block H, comprising library, librarian's room, work room, secretary's room, general teaching area, two seminar rooms and store.

Block J, comprising woodwork-machine shop,. metalwork shop, mechanical drawing room, two art rooms, ceramics area, needlework room, home economics room, teaching kitchen, demonstration theatre and three teachers' preparation rooms.

2. Site works are expected to commence in eariy June, with' three months for com-pletion. . .

The works include the' provision of access road, paths and paving, and planting works in the courtyard.


3. Paths from boundaries to bui'ldings will be provided during the progress of the works referred to in the answer to the first part of the question.

MONTMORENCY HIGH SCHOOL.

Mr. FELL (Greensborough) asked the Minister IQf Education-

Further to his answer to question No. 30, asked in this House on Wednesday, 10th March, 1971-

1. What buildings are included in the present stage of construction of Montmorency High School?

2. When site works wiN be commenced and completed and what is the extent of these works?

"3. When paths from boundaries to buildings will be provided?

4. Whether an assurance was given by him to the school advisory council that building works would continue on subsequent stages until the complex is completed?


1. The foHowing buildings are included in the present stage of construction of Montmorency High School:-

Block F, comprising male locker room, male toilet, female locker room, female toilet, boiler room, incinerator and store.

Block J, comprising woodwork-machine shop, metalwork shop, mechanical drawing room, two art rooms, ceramics area, needlework room, home economics room, teaching kitchen, demonstration theatre, three teachers' preparation rooms.

2. Site works are expected to commence in early June, with three months for completion. The works include the provision of access road, paths and paving, and planting works in the 'courtyard.

3. Paths from boundaries to building will be provided during the progress of the works referred to in the answer to the first part of the question.

4. Yes; subject to relative building programme priorities.

GRIMSHAW PRIMARY SCHOOL.

Mr. FELL (Greeusborough) asked the Minister of Education-

Further to his answer to question No. 32, asked in this House on Wednesday. lOth March, 1971-

1. Whether he is aware that there are 555 occupied houses, 95 houses completed and not yet occupied, and 43 houses in

course of construction within the zone of the proposed Grimshaw Primary School; if so, what arrangements will be made to cater for pupils from these houses?

2. Whether earthworks had been carried out at the time the building works were halted?


1. Yes; the children can be satisfactorily accommodated in nearby existing schools.

2. Yes.

PASCOE VALE SOUTH iPRIMARY SCHOOL.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) asked the Minister of Education-

1. With reference to the letter dated 24th May. 1967, from the Assistant Minister of Education to the honorable member for Brunswick West, relating to the Pascoe Vale South State School-( a) whether the extensive site works were carried out; if so. when; (b) what is the nature of the further works and the original scheme; and (c) whether the tenders were accepted?

2. What is the present position regarding attention to the school's playing area?

3. When the repairs referred to on 5th November, 1970, by the Secretary to the Education Department. will be effected?

4. Whether Mr. Tilley, a Public Works Department engineer, visited the school and recommended extensive site works; if so, what was the nature of such site works and when they are likely to be effected?

5. Whether he will meet the school committee and principal at a convenient date?

Mr.' THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answers are-

1, 2, 3 and 4. Site works referred to in the letter dated 24th May, 1967 from the Assistant Minister of Education to the honorable member for Brunswick West relating to the Pascoe Vale South Primary, School, consisted of asphalt, retaining walls, etc. A tender was accepted and the work completed in October, 1967.

Mr Tilley, a Public Works Department engineer, visited the school and recommended extensive site works. These include new asphalt near the school hall and areas which had previously been filled are to be covered with crushed rock. Some resheeting of existing asphalt and drainage work is also included.

These are the repairs referred to on 5th November by the Secretary to the Education Department and jt is expected that work will


commence before the end of this financial year. The school had been granted a subsidy towallds the cost of oval improvements but decided not to proceed as a more extensive development is contemplated at a latter date.

5. Yes.

MORELAND PRIMARY SCHOOL.

Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East) asked the Minister of Education-

1. Whether six class-rooms sought by the district inspector to replace four existing class-rooms at Moreland Primary School have been approved; if so-( a) when tenders will be called for their construction; and (b) when it is expected that construction will begin?

2. How many class-rooms have been allocated in the altered and renovated school for the purpose of specialist English teaching for non-English speaking migrant pupils?

3. How many portable class-rooms it is expected will be needed to accommodate pupils after completion of alterations and renovations?

4. Whether consideration has been given to rezoning the school with a view to transferring pupils to the area covered by Coburg East Primary School; if so, what decision has been made in respect to such proposal?


1. (a) and (b') The erection of six classrooms at Moreland Primary School to replace four existing class-rooms is included in the department's building programme but it is not possible at this time to indicate either when tenders will be called or when construction will begin. In the meantime, the situation will be kept under review with a view to assessing the 'school's requirements for temporary accommodation.

2. None.

3. Two.

4. Yes. It has been decided not to rezone the area.

AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING COMMISSION TELEVISION PROGRAMMES.

Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Mini'ster of Education-

Whether the Education Department is responsible for the printing of booklets and other material for use in conjunction with Australian Broadcasting Commission television programmes in Victoria; if so, whether the material is available free of charge to schools; if not, what are the costs involved?


The Education Department is not responsible for the printing of booklets for use in conjunction with Australian Broadcasting Commission television programmes in Victoria. These booklets are produced by the Australian Broadcasting Commission and are subsequently bought by the pupils through the schools. The Education Department does produce some supporting material in the form of maps and charts; these are available for purchase by schools or on loan if the schools desire to use them.

UNIVERSITY COURSES FOR STUDENT TEACHERS.

Mr. FELL (Greensboro ugh) asked the Minister of Education-

How far discussions have progressed with the universities regarding the granting of exemptions on university courses for students who have completed the course of Higher Diploma of Teaching (Secondary) at teaching colleges?


The Advisory Council on Tertiary Education has had a number of discussions on this most important subject, namely, the nature and extent of university recognition that could be accorded to students or teachers who have graduated sucessfully from one of the courses for the Higher Diploma of Teaching (Secondary). This is, in fact, one aspect of a much wider and complex problem related to qualifications awarded by teachers' colleges on behalf of the Education Department.

One specific exemption has already been achieved. Students who complete successfully, at the Secondary Teachers College (Parkville), the first year of the science course for the Higher Diploma of Teaching (Secondary) may be admitted to the second year of the course for the Bachelor of Science or of the course for the Bachelor of Science (Education) at the University of Melbourne.

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH IMMUNIZATION CAMPAIGNS:

SUBSIDIES.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Health-

What is the allocation for subsidies available to municipalities for immunization campaigns and when this amount was last amended?


Mr. ROSSITER . (Minister of Health) .-The answer is-

There is no allocation of funds specifically for subsidies to be paid to municipalities towards the cost of immunization campaigns, these subsidies being paid from item 7 of subdivision 2 of Division 76 of the Estimates-general infectious diseases.

It is estimated that an amount of $152,000 will be spent on such subsidies during 1970-71.

MOBILE CHEST X-RAYS IN GEELONG DISTRICT.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Health-

what was the last date on which mobile chest X-ray units visited the Geelong district and when the next visit will take place?


Mobile chest X-ray units were last in Geelong during September and October, 1968. It is planned for the units to be next in Geelong during November and December, 1971.

ALCOHOLICS AND DRUGDEPENDENT PERSONS ACT.

ASSESSMENT CENTRES.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the Minister of Health-

How many assessment centres have been established by the Government under the Alcoholics and Drug-dependent Persons Act 1968, where they are situated, and how many patients th.ey are each able to accommodate?


It is intended to establish one assessment centre on the site of the former psychiatric hospital, Pleasant View, in Wood Street, Preston, with out-patient services and inpatient accommodation for approximately 11 0 persons.

Depending upon the experience obtained from the operation of this clinic, other assessment centres may be established, some perhaps in country areas.

VICTORIAN RAILWAYS. TRAILER CARRIAGES.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister of Transport-

What is the delivery programme for the new 75-ft. trailer carriages and whether the carriages will be used, on a rotational basis, on all suburban lines?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answer is~.

Four more prototype 75-ft. trailer cars have yet to be brought into service to complete the programme of six.

Expected completion dates of these are early May, June, July, and August, 1971.

As two of these trailer cars are used in the one train, they will be mostly used on the Ringwood, Glen Waverley and Frankston lines where platforms have been lengthened-as the eff.ect of using two of these trailer cars is to turn the train into the equivalent of eight cars.

As opportunity offers they will run on other lines during off peak periods, when trains consist of only four cars~

These cars are not part of the programme now in hand to obtain 50 new suburban trains (not cars) over a period of years.

EpPING, UPFIELD AND BROADMEADOWS LINES: CANCELLATION OF TRAINS.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister of Transport-

How many suburban trains have been cancelled on the Epping, Upfield and Broadmeadows lines in the past four months, indicating the dates, times and cause of each cancellaton?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Trans-port) .-The answer is-

Epping line-78 trips Upfield line-25 trips Broadmeadows line--63 trips.

The cancellations arose from no guards being available for trains in all cases save five. Cancellations occurred generally later in the afternoon and at a time when the availability of guards to work overtime shifts is reduced.

I can arrange to supply the honorable member with details of the dates and times of the cancellations if he desires to have them.

Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir) asked the Minister of Transport-

1. How many north-bound trains were cancelled on the Reservoir-Epping line during each of the past six weeks, what were their scheduled departure times and what was the reason for the cancellations?

2. What steps are being taken to ensure that trains run according to the advertised timetable?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answers are-

l. Sixteen trips. The cancellations arose from no guards beng available for trains in all cases save one. Cancellations


occurred generally later in the afternoon and at a time when the availability of guards to work overtime shifts is reduced.

I can arrange to supply the honorable member with details of the dates and times of the cancellations if he desires to have them.

2. Additional guards are being trained and the position should improve early in April and further again in May, subject to the present staff numbers remaining steady and no abnormal absence through illness, etc.

LEVEL CROSSINGS BETWEEN HAMILTON AND COLERAINE.

Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Minister of Transport-

Whether there are plans to install flashing lights on the railway crossings between Hamilton and Coleraine; if so, what plans; if not, why?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport).-The answer is-

There are 24 out of 25 level crossings between Hamilton and Coleraine without flashing lights. The Nigretta Falls Road level crossing, near Wannon, was so equipped in November, 1969, this being necessitated by a realignment of the road by the Shire of Dundas.

I am informed that the railways have no plans for flashing light installations at those crossings as many other crossings in the State have greater priority.

It should be noted that these crossings on the Coleraine line are low in priority because there are only two regular trains a week with a maximum speed limit of 20 miles per hour.

CONSTRUCTION OF TRAINS.

MI. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Transport-

1. What contracts for the construction of trains are at present being executed, what are the names of the contractors, and what is the value of each contract?

2. Whether consideration was given in each case to the carrying out of such work in Victorian Railways workshops?

3. Why private contracts were called?

4. What plans, if any, are in hand for the future construction of railway vehicles in Victorian Railways workshops?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport).-The answers are-

1. Contracts have been accepted for the construction of 50 electric suburban trains, excluding 50 trailer cars complete and the provision of bogies, which will be undertaken by the Victorian Railways.

The contractors and contract prices are--Contractor.

Martin & King Pty. Ltd. Bradford Kendall Ltd. Stone-Platt (Australasia)

Pty. Ltd.

2. Yes.

Estimated Price.

$ 21,498,150 3,527,100

248,550

3. The over-all arrangement for the construction of these trains was made after consideration of all relevant aspects including the capacity of the railway workshops with their present commitments.

4. Future plans are dependent upon the availability of funds. Plans for next year envisage continuing production of freight vehicles and commencemen t of construction of the 50 trailer cars referred to.

RAILWAY WORKSHOPS; FUTURE USE; FINANCIAL RESULT; TRADESMEN.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Transport-

With regard to the railway workshops at Newport, Spotswood, Ballarat and Bendigo, what are the long-term plans in relation to-(a) the type of work to be undertaken; and (b) the number of persons to be employed at each of these workshops?


On the assumption that the necessary finance will be available, existing plans contemplate no substantial variation in:-

(a) the type of work to be undertaken;

(b) the total staff employed.


Whether the Railway Department is able to assess the profit or loss on operations of railway workshops; if so, what system is used and what was the profit or loss on operations of the Spotswood, Newport. Ballarat and Bendigo railway workshops, respectively, in each of the past ten financial years; if not, why?



These are internal workshops mainly undertaking the maintenance of railway rolling-stock and operating equipment and their costs are absorbed into the general operating expenses.

The wO'rkshO'Ps as such earn nO' revenue and it is therefore not PO'ssible to' assess a profit or loss on operations.


1. How many qualified tradesmen have ceased emplO'ymenit with the Victorian Railways during each of the past ten years at Newport, Spotswood, Ballarat and BendigO' railway workshops, respectively, specifying

1.

- - 1961. 1962. --

Newport .. Retired .. . . 28 25 Dismissed .. 6 3 Other Reasons .. 69 77

Spotswood .. Retired · . .. 9 1 Dismissed .. 3 1 Other Reasons .. 33 45

Ballarat ' .. Retired · . .. 6 7 Dismissed . . . . . . Other Reasons .. 12 9

Bendigo .. Retired · . .. 6 10 Dismissed .. 'il . . Other Reasons .. 8

2.

in each case the categories of employment and whether their services were terminated O'n ;account O'f-(a) retirement; (b) O'btaining outside employment; (c) dismissal; or (d) other reasons?

2. How many tradesmen commenced employment at each of the workshops referred ,to' above in each O'f the past ten years?

3. How many qualified tradesmen and unqualified employees, respectively, were emplO'yed at each of the workshO'Ps at 30th June, 1961, 30th June, 1966 and 30th June, 1970?

4. What type of advertising is conducted to' recruit tradesmen for employment at the workshO'Ps?


1963. 1964. 1965. 1966. 1967. 1968. 1969. , 1970. --------------

30 33 10 10 24 18 26 32 2 2 1 3 1 4 4 2

93 100 63 72 72 62 83 97

2 7 5 5 15 8 4 13 2 . . . . . . · . 1 · . . .

21 67 42 19 22 27 21 29

6 6 3 . . 4 8 6 4 . . . . . , . . · . .. · . .. 10 25 11 16 12 11 12 21

3 4 7 1 6 5 8 10 1 1 . . 1 · . .. · . ..

18 10 16 12 16 13 12 11

- 1961. 1962. 1963. 1964. 1965. 1966. 1967.11968. 1969. 1970.

----------------Newport .. .. 143 76 83 76 104 71 80 75 107 87 Spotswood .. .. 24 41 21 47 35 17 23 19 32 18 Ballarat . . .. 19 20 15 19 13 24 11 13 24 17 Bendigo .. . . 6 22 24 18 23 29 15 11 21 19

3.

1961 • 1966 • 1970 • --

Tradesmen. Unqualified. Tradesmen. Unqualified. Tradesmen. Unqualified.

Newport ., .. 986 1,418 784 1,391 647 1,262 Spotswood .. .. 290 379 211 310 175 292 Ballarat .. . . .. 313 305

I 308 323 297 ' 319

Bendigo .. .. .. 301 382 302 389 286 348

• Includes apprentices.


4. The annual intake of 'apprentices is the main source of recruiting tradesmen, and only in isolated instances are tr.adesmen advertised for in the press.

EpPING-WHITTLESEA LINE.


1. Whether any sections of the railway line between Epping land Whittlesea have been dismantled; if so, why?

2. Whether any maintenance has been carried out on the line since it was closed?

3. Whether any of the land adjacent to the railway line and reserved for railway purposes has been disposed of; if not, whether it is inltended to dispose of any such land?

4. What are the Railway Department's plans for this line in the future?


1. The rails from Epping to Whittlesea harye been removed. They were recovered for use in relaying tr.ack elsewhere.

2. No.

3. Since closure of the line in 1959, a small area has been sold to Ithe Country Roads Board for road purposes. The railways will not dispose of any of the land other than small areas required for public purposes and then only provided the disposal does not ;adversely affect the possible restoration of the track in fu ture.

4. The righlt-of-way is being retained for future use when development of the area warrants restoration of rail service.

MUNICIPALITIES.

RESIDENTIAL USE RATE FOR ZONED

INDUSTRIAL AREAS.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Transport, for the Minister for Local Govemment-

Which councils have taken advantage of section 13 of the Local Government (Amendment) Act 1970 which allows a residential use rate in a zoned industrial area?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport» .-The Minister for Local Government has supplied the following answer:-

This information can only be obtained by Circulating all 'councils in Victoria, and the information will be supplied to the honorable member when it is available.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENT.

ROAD AND FOOTPATH CONSTRUCTION

COSTS.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Transport, for the Minister for Local Govemment-

What amount of road or footpath construction costs, if any, are owing to the City of Geelong West or Shire of Corio by the Locall Government Department, specifying in each case-(a) the name of each project for which amounts are outstanding; (b) when the works were carried out; (c) when the municipalities will be reimbursed for such works; and (d) what interest, if any, is being paid by the department on the amounts?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answer supplied by the Minister for Local Government is-

The department receives an amountusually $200,000-annually to meet ex gratia payments. Claims from municipalities are paid in the order in which they are received until the amount received is exhausted.

Details of the amounts owing to the City of Geelong West and the Shire of Corio are set out hereunder:-

1. (a) $6,851. 17-Construction of Buxton Road adjacent to the site of the proposed Western Heights State School No. 4824.

(b) Proposed to commence in December, 1965.

(c) At the time the council made the application in 1965 it was agreed that a contribution be made but on the understanding that no contribution would be

made by this department until the work on the construction of the school began. Recent advice from the Education Department indicates that it will be at least two to three years before construction of the school is commenced.

2. (a) $4,910.30-Construction of Derby Road South adjacent to the site of the proposed Western Heights State School No. 4824.

(b) Proposed to commence in December, 1965.

(c) Same agreement as for Buxton Road.

3. (d) The ex gratia fund does not provide for the payment of interest.

Shire of Corio: 1. (a) $76.33-Footpath construction in

Centre Road adjacent to the Lara State School.

(b) Commenced 30th June, 1967.

(c) No claim lodged.

4214 Questions on [ASSEMBLY.J Notice.

2. (a) $55. 82-Footpath construction in Hicks Street, Lara, adjacent to No. 24A railways residence.

(b) Commenced June, 1967.


3. (a) $385.15-Kerb and channel construction in Thompson Road, North Geelong, adjacent to the North Geelong High School.

(b) Commenced February, 1971.


4. (a) $5,184.06-Construction of Devon Street and Kinnordy Court adjacent to the Bell Post HiU State School.

(b) Commenced August, 1968.

( c) No claim lodged.

5. (a) $415. 58-Construction of easement drain to serve the North Geelong High School.

(b) Commenced December, 1968.


6. (a) $681-Construction of footpaths in Cox Road adjacent to the Norlane High School. .

(b) Commenced January, 1970.


7. (a) $402-Footpath construction in Goldsworthy Road adjacent to the Corio Technical School.

(b) Commenced January, 1970.


(d) The ex gratia fund does not provide for the payment of interest.

WHEAT MARKETING ACT. WHEAT QUOTAS.

Mr. BROAD (Swan Hill) asked the Minister of Lands, for the Minister of Agriculture-

1. How many wheat quotas were issued for the 1970-71 harvest under the Wheat Marketing Act 1969?

2. How many special quotas were issued for the 1970-71 harvest and how much wheat was involved in the issue of these quotas?

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) .-The answers suppl'i'ed by the Min'ister of Agriculture are-

1. 17,403 quotas were issued for the 1970-71 season.

2. 1,101 special quotas have been issued for the 1970-71 season involving 1,590,549 bushels.

ALLAMBIE RECEPTION CENTRE. STAFF.


1. How many staff are employed by the Social Welfare Department at Allambie Reception Centre, specifying-( a) the number and type of staff; and (b) the staff establishments in each category?

2. What were the corresponding figures as at 30th June, in each year since 1965?

3. What was the staff turnover in each category in each of the years 1965-66 to 1969-70?

4. What was the staff-child ratio at the centre on 30th June in each year since 1965, specifying the respective ratios for children in the age groups-( a) under three yea·rs; (b) 3-5 years; (c) 5-7 years; (d) 7-10 years; and (e) 10-14 years?

5. What special serVices are provided to the centre by other Government departments, specifying the nature and frequency of such services?

6. Whether any recommendations have been made during the past five years seeking increases in staff establishments and specialist services; if so-( a) by whom; (b) what were the recommendations; and (0) when they were made?

7. What plans, if any, the Government has to increase staff establishments and specialist services, and to overcome staff shortages?

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Minister for Social Welfare) .-The answers are-

1 and 2. See appendix A. 3. See appendix B. 4. Such figures are not available. 5. The Education Department provides

necessary teachers. The Department of Health provides two doctors; one attending five mornings each week for the nursery children, and the other for three morning sessions each week in the surgery.

Dental services are provided one full day each week.

The Mental Health Authority provides a team of a psychologist and a psychiatrist one full day each week.

6. See Appendix C. 7. Existing practice will continue, in that

as needs are recognized, specialist services are sought from appropriate departments, and additional staff is sought via the annual Estimates. In emergency situations, special clearances and creations of staff poSitions are sought respectively from Treasury and the Public Service Board.

Questions on [23 MARCH, 1971.] Notice. 4215·

ApPENDIX A.

Staff establishments and numbers employed.

As at 30th June of year. At present.

Types of staff. 1966. 1967. 1968. 1969. 1970.

Est. Emp. Est. Emp. Est. Emp. Est. Emp. Est. Emp. Est. Emp. ----------------------

Professional Division-

Superintendent .. .. .. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Assistant superintendent .. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Social worker (F) .. .. 2 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 2 2

Administrative Division-

Class" C2" " " .. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Class" C" " " · . 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Class" E" .. " .. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 2 Stenographers (F), gr. I. · . 2 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2

Technical and General Division and Temporary-

Activities officers (Holiday periods only)

Clerk, grade II. .. .. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Assistant (F), grade I. .. · . 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Assistant (F), grade I. ,. , . 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 Carpenter ., ,. · . 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 .. 1 1 Chauffeur ., " .. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Cook (F), grade IV. or Cook (M) 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Cook (F), grade II. " " 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 Cottage mothers " " 4 4 4 2 4 4 5 4 5 4 15 4 Domestics, , ., " ,. 16 13 16 15 17 17 17 15 19 15 9 14 Gardener, grade I. , , ,. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 General assistants ., ,. 2 1 2 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 General reliever ,. .. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 . , 1 1 1 1 Handcraft instructor (F)

" 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ,. 1 .. 1 1

Housekeeper .. " .. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 " 1 Kitchenman " ,.

" 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Labourer ,. " ,. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Laundress, senior " .. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Laundresses .. ,. .. 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 Matron . , , . .. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Matron-deputy " ,. 1 .. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Matron-assistant ,. .. 1 . . 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Maintenance foreman .. ,. 1 1 1 .. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Kindergartners .. " .. 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 Painter ., " .. .. .. . . .. . . . . 1 1 1 1 1 1 Seamstresses .. " ,. 1 1 1 1 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 Storeman, grade II. ,. ,. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 11 1 Ward sisters " ,. .. 13 12 13 12 13 13 13 13 16 15 6 16 Child care officer (F), senior .. 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 4 3 4 4 Child care officer (F) .. .. 73 72 73 73 95 95 95 92 110 107 110 107

-----1---------------Totals .. .. 151 141 151 145 177 177 180 170 201 187 201 192

4216 Questions on [ASSEMBLY. ] Notice.

ApPENDIX B.

Turnover.

Staff. 1965-66. 1966-67. 1967-68. 1968-69. 1969-70.

On. Off. On. Off. On. Off. On. Off. On. Off. ----------------

Professional Division-Superintendent .. .. .. .. . . .. . . .. .. .. . . . . Assistant superintendent .. .. .. .. .. . . .. .. . . . . 1 Social worker (female) .. .. .. . . . . 1 1 2 2 .. 1

Administrative Division-Class "C2" .. .. .. .. .. .. . . . . .. .. .. . . . . Class" C" .. .. .. . . .. .. . . 1 1 .. .. .. . . Class" E " . , .. .. .. .. .. . . . . .. . . . . 1 2 Stenographer, grade 1. .. 2 .. .. .. . . .. 1 1 1 3

Technical and General Division and Temporary-

Activities officer (Holiday periods only) .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . . . . . .

Clerk, grade II. .. .. .. .. .. . . . . .. .. .. . . . . Assistant (P), grade I. .. .. .. .. . . . . .. .. .. . . . . Assistant (F), grade 1. .. .. .. 1 .. 1 1 3 2 1 3 Carpenter .. .. .. .. .. 1 1 . . .. . . . . 2 2 Chauffeur .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . . . . .. . . Cook (F), grade IV., or cook (M) .. .. .. .. ., .. 1 1 1 1 Cook (F), grade II. .. .. 1 3 2 4 5 5 1 1 3 4 Cottage mothers .. .. .. . . .. .. 1 .. 2 3 .. .,

Domestics .. .. . . 12 12 19 14 18 15 11 11 22 12 Gardener, grade I. .. .. 1 1 .. .. ., .. .. . . . . .. General assistant .. .. 3 3 5 1 3 1 1 1 1 .,

General reliever .. .. 2 1 .. .. 1 1 2 2 1 1 Handcraft instructor .. .. 1 .. .. .. .. .. .. . . . . . . Housekeeper .. .. .. 1 .. .. .. .. .. .. . . . . 1 Kitchenman . , .. .. .. .. 1 1 .. ., .. .. .. .,

Labourer .. .. .. .. .. . . .. .. .. . . . . 2 3 Laundress, senior .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . . . . . . . . Laundresses .. .. .. .. .. .. 1 .. . . . . .. .. .,

Matron .. .. .. 1 1 .. .. .. .. .. . . . . . . Matron, deputy .. .. .. .. 1 1 .. 1 1 . . .. . . Matron, assistant .. .. .. .. 1 1 1 .. . . .. .. .,

Maintenance foreman .. .. .. .. . . .. 1 .. " . . .. .,

Kindergartners .. .. 2 .. 2 3 1 1 2 2 1 .,

Painter .. .. .. ., .. 1 .. .. . . .. . . . . . . Seamstresses .. .. . . .. .. .. .. 3 .. .. .. . . . . Storeman, grade II. . , .. .. .. . . 1 1 ., " .. .. .,

Ward sisters .. .. .. 20 18 13 13 11 9 14 12 13 10 Child care officer (P), senior .. .. .. . . .. .. 1 . . 1 1 .. Child care officer (female) .. 90 86 120 118 133 112 113 107 134 132

--------------------Totals .. .. 136 125 167 159 182 149 154 146 184 176


ApPENDIX C.

Additional positions recommended by Director-General

Type of staff.

1966-67.

So.cial wo.rkers .. .. . . .. Clerk, class "C" .. .. .. Clerk (F), grade II ... .. " .. Typist .. .. .. . . .. Activities o.fficer (F) .. .. .. .. Assistant (F), grade II. ., .. .. Co.o.k (F), grade II ... .. .. .. Co.ttage mo.ther .. .. " 1 Do.mestic .. .. ., .. 2 Gardener .. .. " .. General assistant .. .. .. .. Laundress .. .. .. .. Kindergartener .. .. .. ., Painter .. .. .. .. .. Seamstress .. .. .. " 1 Ward Sister .. .. .. .. Child care o.fficer (Female) .. .. 12 Patro.lman .. .. .. .. Laundry fo.reman (M) .. .. .. Cleaner .. .. .. .. .,

TOTALS .. .. 16

SOCIAL WELFARE DEPARTMENT.

SERVICES AND PERSONNEL:

GOVERNMENT DIRECTIVE.


1. Fo.llo.wing receipt of Treasury directio.ns requiring cuts in services and perso.nnel what memo.randa have been issued within the So.cial Welfar.e Department requiring any, and if so. what, restrictio.ns o.n o.vertime o.r ho.urs o.f wo.rk?

2. Whether the services o.f any, and if so. what, tempo.rary emplo.yees have been terminated; and have any, and if so. what, directives been issued about the emplo.yment o.f tempo.rary emplo.yees in future?

3. What o.ther departmental services and facilities have been cut, curtailed o.r temporarily suspended, specifying in each particular cas'e the service o.r facility so. affected?

4. Whether any, and if so. wh~t, building and maintenance pro.grammes have been disco.ntinued o.r curtailed, specifying in each Session 1971.-153

in annual Estimates.

1967-68. 1968-69. 1969-70. 1970-71.

-.. 1 1 1 . . .. 1 .. .. .. .. 1 . . . . 1 1 . . 1 1 .. 1 1 .. . .

.. ., " 1 1 .. .. . . 2 1 4 .. 1 1 "

., . . 1 2 . . .. . . . . 1 ., .. 1 .. 1 1 . . ., 3 .. . . .,

., .. 3 . . 27 5 20 5 .. . . 3 . . . , . . .. 1 .. ., . . 3

36 12 37 14

case the building so. affected and the estimated amo.unts saved as a result o.f such curtailment?

5. If he will lay o.n the table o.f the Library the file co.ntaining all memo.randa o.r any o.ther do.cuments o.r reco.rds issued as a result o.f the Go.vernment's present eco.no.my drive?

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Min'ister for Social Welfare).-The answers are-

1. Such instructio.ns as are appro.priate have been issued to. all departmental divisio.ns to. require co.nfo.Iimity with the Treasury directio.ns.

2. All divisio.ns have been instructed to. co.mply with the directio.ns as regards staff, but no.t to. require that the services o.f any temporary emplo.yees be terminated.

3. Expenditures are being reduced where the effects will no.t unduly disrupt services. In so.me areas, the Dir.ecto.r o.f Finance has been requested to. reco.nsider the directio.ns in the light o.f expected effects.

4. All Io.an wo.rks pro.grammes hav,e been reviewed, and contracts fo.r which tenders have no.t been let have been deferred. The resultant savings are sho.wn in the following table:-

4218' Questions on [ASSEMBLY.] Notice.

Division. Allocation. Revised allocation. Reduction.

$ $ $

Family Welfare . , .. .. 500,816 459;710 41,106 Youth Welfare .. .. .. 647,100 509,271 137,829 Prisons .. .. .. . . 494,950 310,600 184,350 Training .. .. 55,750 43,750 12,000 Probation and Parole .. .. 10,000 . . 10,000

Totals: .. .. .. 1,708,616 1,323,331 385,285

5. This is not possible, as a number of the matters involved are not finalized and the file is in cons tan t use.

Authorities administered.

STATE RIVERS AND WATER SUPPLY COMMISSION.

SEWERAGE AND WATER TRUSTS.

Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland) asked the Minister of Water Supply-

In how many cases an administrative secretary serves two or more sewerage and/or water trusts and what are the names and locations of these trusts?

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply) .-The answer is-

There are 81 cases where an administrative secretary serves two or more sewerage and/or wateT authorities. Particulars are shown on the schedule which follows.

CASES WHERE Two OR MORE LOCAL WATER AND/OR SEWERAGE AUTHORITIES ARE ADMINISTERED BY ONE SECRETARY.

Location of authority's

office.

Alexandra

Ararat Ararat Avoca

Bacchus Marsh Bairnsdale Bairnsdale

Ballarat

Beaufort .. Beech Forest ..

Beechworth Belmont

Benalla Bruthen

CamperdoWD .. Charlton Cobden Chiltern


Name of waterworks trust or local

governing body (marked LOB).

Alexandra Thornton Shire of Ararat City of Ararat (LOB) Avoca Township Landsborough Redbank Bacchus Marsh (LOB) Bairnsdale Lindenow Paynesville The Ballarat Water

Commissioners Beaufort Apollo Bay Forrest Beechworth (LOB)

Benalla Bruthen Lakes Entrance Metung Camperdown (LOB) Charlton Shire of Heytesbury Barnawartha Chiltern

Name of sewerage authority.

Alexandra

Will aura Ararat

Bacchus Marsh Bairnsdale

Ballarat

Beaufort Apollo Bay

Beechworth Barwon Heads Torquay Benalla

Camperdown Charlton Simpson


office.

Cobram

Cohuna Colac Corryong

Creswick

Donald Drouin Drouin

Dunolly

Echuca Euroa Hamilton Heywood Horsham Kaniva Kerang Korumburra .. Kyabram Kyneton

Lang Lang Wendouree

Leongatha Linton

Maffra Mansfield .. Maryborough Maryborough

Melton Moe Mooroopna Morwell

Mount Beauty Myrtleford Nathalia Nhill Numurkah Orbost Ouyen

Port Fairy Portland Rosedale

Ruthetglen

St. Arnaud Sale Seymour

Name of waterworks trust or local

governing body (marked LOB).

Cobram Katamatite Cohuna Colac Corryong Cudgewa Walwa Creswick (LOB) Smeaton (LOB) Spring Hill (LOB) Donald Drouin Nerrim South Noojee Bealiba Dunolly (LOB) Tarnagulla (LOB) Echuca Euroa Hamilton Heywood Horsham Shire of Kaniva Kerang Korumburra Kyabram (LOB) Shire of Kyneton Malmsbury Trentham Lang Lang Learmonth Miners Rest Leongatha Linton Smythesdale-Scarsdale Maffra Mansfield Maryborough Bowenvale-Timor Carisbrook Melton Moe Mooroopna Boolarra Hernes Oak Morwell Mount Beauty Myrtleford Shire of Nathalia NhiII Shire of Numurkah Orbost Cowangie (LOB) Murrayville Underbool Port Fairy Portland Rosedale Seaspray Wurruk Rutherglen Wahgunyah St. Arnaud City of Sale (LOB) Seymour


Cobram

Cohuna Colac Corryong

Donald Drouin

Echuca Euroa Hamilton Heywood Horsham Kaniva Kerang Korumburra Kyabram Kyneton

Lang Lang

Leongatha

Maffra Mansfield Maryborough

Melton Moe Mooroopna Churchill Morwell

Mount Beauty Myrtleford Nathalia NhiII Numurkah Orbost

Port Fairy Portland

St. Arnaud Sale Seymour

Questions on Notice. [23 MARCH, 1971.] Questions without Notice. 4219



office. Name of waterworks

trust or local governing body (marked LGB).

Stawell • . Town ofStaweU (LOB) Swan Hill Swan Hill Talbot • • Clunes (LGB)

Talbot (LGB) Tallangatta . • Tallangatta Tatura . • Tatura Toora . . Toora Trafalgar . . Erica

Thorpdale Trafalgar Yarragon

Traralgon . . Traralgon Wangaratta .. Wangaratta Warracknabeal Warracknabeal Warrnambool City of Warrnambool

(LGB) Wedderburn •. Inglewood (LOB)

Wedderburn and Korong Vale (LOB)

Werribee . . Little River Werribee (LOB)

Winchelsea . . Lome Winchelsea

Wodonga .. Wodonga Wycheproof ..

Yalloum North Yalloum North Yea .. Yea

LAKE NATIMUK.


Stawell Swan Hill

Tallangatta Tatura Toora

Traralgon Wangaratta Warracknabeal Warrnambool

Werribee Lorne

Wodonga Sea Lake Wycheproof Yallourn North Yea

Mr E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Minister of Water Supply-

1. How many acre-feet of water would it take to fill Lake Natimuk at present?

2. Whether it is proposed to fill the lake to capacity before next summer?

3. How many ratepayers depend upon the lake for their water supply?

4. How many persons visited the lake in each of the past five years?

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply).-The answers are-

1. Lake Natimuk holds about 4,200 acrefeet of water when full. It is now empty. The only method of getting water from the headworks storages to the lake is by spilling from a small channel into a watercourse that discharges into the lake. It is estimated that at least 7,000 acre-feet of water would have to be released to fill it, and this would take two. years.

2. It is not proposed to put any water in the lake during the running of the system, both because of the depleted condition of the storages and the period of time required to run the channel system.

3. No ratepayers depend on the lake for their supply. Properties are rated by virtue of the ability to supply from the channel system. Seven people have diverted from the lake in the past.

4. The lake is controlled by a committee of management under the Arapiles Shire Council, Natimuk, and it is understood that only a few tourists have visited the area in the past five years.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE.

WORKS ON POLICE STATIONS. Mr WILKES (Northcote).-Will

the Chief Secretary advise what works on new police stations in course of construction have stopped because of the financial restrictions imposed by the Treasurer?

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-I ask the honorable member to place his question on the Notice Paper.

ANZAC DAY RAILWAY SERVICES. Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown).

As Anzac Day falls on a Sunday this year, has the Minister of Transport given consideration to the running of special trains, as would occur on a day other than Sunday, to allow veteran ex-servicemen to attend the dawn service at the Shrine of Remembrance.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-1 have not given consideration to the matter but 1 shall be pleased to discuss it with the Railways Commissioners with the view of implementing the suggestion made by the honorable member.

Mr. FLOYD.-If you receive a request?

Mr. WILCOX.-Yes.

DECENTRALIZATION OF EDUCATION ADMINISTRATION. Mr. DIXON (St. Kilda).-Can the

Minister of Education advise what steps are being taken through the Education Department to increase decentralization of administrative processes in education in this State and to involve parents and prominent citizens in the decision-making processes of the department?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-It could be said that the department is working in three main areas. The first is through the introduction of a direct grants system which has been previously announced whereby $3.2 million, which previously would have been allocated to

4220 Questions [ASSEMBLY.] , without Notice.

schools with restrictions and tags attached, is being allocated in direct grants to each school advisory council and committee for the advisory council or committee to spend on the school as it thinks fit in the best interests of the school. The original amount spent on these grants was $2 .2 million, but the Government added another $1 million to ensure that the new scheme moved off to a good start.

The second main area is the appointment of directors of regional areas. Shortly, the Teachers Tribunal will be asked to appoint regional directors at Bendigo and Ballarat and in the Gippsland area. It is proposed that the regional director shall have as much authority as possible and make as many decisions as possible within the region without the necessity for reference to head office.

The third main area is in the field of the curriculum where, over the past few years, at fourth and fifth-year level, more independence has been given to school teachers and principals to draw up their own curricula without detailed supervision from head office and without the necessity for detailed supervision by inspectors.

CUTS IN GOVERNMENT EXPENDITURE

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-In answer to a question on notice last week the Premier and Treasurer indicated that he was expecting to receive from all departments by 12th March detailed proposals from each department on the methods proposed to be adopted to comply with the Treasurer's directive on cuts in expenditure. If he has received this information, will the honorable gentleman be prepared to make photostat copies of it available to members of the Opposition or to myself?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-Regarding the instructions given to all departments approximately a month ago, it was expected that replies would have been received from all departments by the 12th of this month. Replies have now been received saying how the situation can be met. In three or four cases, such as law, social welfare and education, some serious decisions still have to be made. Until those decisions are made, 1 shaH not be in a position to supply the information required.

The honorable member might think that because Canberra sneezes the States cough. 1 assure him that Victoria has no intention of dying from pneumonia. The Government will be taking an independent Hne. Although directions were given t'O try to obtain an over-all objective, services necessary to Victoria are not going to be stopped or curtailed. That is why, in the field of social welfare, it is impossible to attain the target that was set. Some of these facts have been pointed out, and the Government has yet to make a decision in this field.

Concerning a question directed to the Chief Secretary earlier regarding police stati'Ons under construction, 1 should like to say that if those constructions are stopped it will be contrary to any direction given.

M'r. WILKEs.-They have been stopped.

Sir HENRY BOL TE.-It is contrary to the directions given that any projects under construction were not to proceed. Some works that were to commence. before 1 st July of this financial year are being delayed. To the best of my knowledge no directions or instructions were given to stop something currently under construction.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-1 should like '1'0 rephrase my question in a supplementary way. Will the Premier make available to me, as Leader of


the Opposition, such information as he has avaHable from the various departments on the effects of the particular cuts in the particular departments?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-1 am prepared to supply to the Leader of the Oppositio.n any figures given to me by departments. It would not be proper for me to supply to anyone the proposals advanced to. the Treasurer or the reasons given by the departmental heads or other people in the departments. I will supply the actual figures.

GAS LEAK IN PRAHRAN FACTORY.

Mr. LOXTON (Prahran).-Can the Minister of Health advise me whether the source of gas poisoning in a factory in my electorate, as reported in today's press, has been determined?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The Industrial Hygiene Section of the Department of Health was immediately required to investigate this happening and I have its report with me.

Mr. WILKES.-YOU have it in your pocket!

Mr. ROSSITER.-The honorable member for Prahran would not be so lax in his duty as not to ask a question. Carbon mono.xide leaked from a pipe going to a natural gas oven in premises next doo.r to this factory. It got into the intake of the air conditioning of the factory. Carbon monoxide is not toxic; in diffusion, it causes a tremendous fe'eling of depression and vomiting, but n'O toxic effects ari'Se from it. I am asking for further information on the source of the emission.

PLEASANT VIEW ASSESSMENT CENTRE.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Can the Minister of Health inform me whether work has commenced on the assessment centre at Pleasant View; if

so, to what extent has work been carried out, and is there any likelihood that this work will cease because· of the economic restrictions?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-Work has commenc-ed at Pleasant View, and there is every likelihood that it will cease because of the restrictions.

MENTAL HEALTH AUTHORITY WORKS.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-Can the Minister of Health inform the House, as a result of proposed economic restrictions, whether any and if so what work has been terminated on Mental Health Authority projects at Kew, Stawell and Sunbury?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-1 ask the Leader of the Opposition to place his question on the Notice Paper.

TRACTOR SAFETY REGULATIONS. Mr. TREWIN (Benalla).-I direct a

q!lestion to the Minister of Labour and Industry. Have regulations relating to tractor safety been prepared for gazettal following the passage of the ~abour and Indusltry (Am'endment) Bill 'last year? If so, have the interested parties, such as producer organizations and the Victorian tractor manufacturers' association had an opportunity to examine the regulations, as promised by the Minister when he introduced the Bill in this House?

Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The regulations are in course of preparation in draft form. The bodies to which I referred when the Bill was before the House will have an opportunity to express their views to the department before the regulations are promulgated.

4222 Questions· [ASSEMBL Y.] without Notice.

PRIVATE HOSPITALS. . Mr. BORNSTEIN (BrunSwick East). -Can the Minister of Labour and Industry c'Onfirm aHegations made at the week-end by the Federal secretary of the Hospital Employees Federation of Australia that many private hospitals in Victoria are paying their staff wages below the legal minimum?

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member should ask the question directly and not as a matter of confirming an opinion.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-Is it a fact that many private hospitals in Victoria are paying their staffs wages below legal minimum rates? If so, what action does the Minister's department intend to take to stop this practice?

Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-1 am not aware of the matter to which the honorable m'ember adverts. If it is directed to my attention, the department will certainly examine it and, if necessary, ensure that any corrective action is taken.

GRACE McKELLAR HOUSE FOR THE AGED.

Mr. BIRRELL (Geelong).-Can the Minister of Health indicate why completed blocks of the Grace McKellar House for the Aged at Geelong are unoccupied because fittings are not available?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-This is another example of the tremendous detrimental effect on the finances and operations of this State which the Commonwealth Government's anti-inflationary restrictions have had. I hope that, upon the Premier's return from the Premiers Conference on 5th April, it will be possible to resolve many of these matters.

ALLAMBIE RECEPTION CENTRE. Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Can the

Minister for Social Welfare inform the House what works have ceased at Allambie Reception Centre due to economic restrictions?

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Minister for Social Welfare) .-1 have given no instructions for any works to cease. The works planned for the short term have been temporarily shelved. If the honorable member places a question on the Notice Paper, I may be able to give him more detail.

SEWERAGE FOR SERVICETON. Mr. McCABE (Lowan).-Can the

Minister of Water Supply inform the House whether he has received any representations from the Shire of Kaniva on the guaranteeing of a loan for a proposed sewerage authority at the town of Serviceton to carry out work in conjunction with the Victorian Railways? If so, what action does the Minister intend to take?

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply) .-Yes, I have received correspondence from the Shire of Kaniva regarding loan finance for proposed sewerage works at Serviceton. Initially, the finance was guaranteed for this work, and the guarantee was withdrawn. The amount involved is not great-approximately $23,500-leaving, after a Government grant which will be available for this work. approximately $18,500 to be found. If this amount is borrowed, I believe as a result of the local member's representations to me--

Honorable members interjecting.

Mr. DUNSTAN.-I understood, Mr. Speaker, that the purpose of questions without notice was to make Ministers available to give information to the House at the request of members. Do I have the time and indulgence of the House?

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The Minister should answer the question.

Mr. DUNSTAN.-I am finding it very difficult to make myself heard. As the undertaking given to guarantee the loan moneys involved for this work has been withdrawn, I believe that, following the representations of the honorable member for Lowan and the Shire of Kaniva, a case can be

,. Questions [23 MARCH, 1971.] without Notice. 4223

put to the Treasury to meet the cost of this work, from normal Government loan funds in 1971-72. I shoUld like to advise the honorable member for Lowan, through you, Sir, that as a result of his representations I will ask the Stale Rivers and Water Supply Commission to prepare a case to put to the Treasury for loan funds with which to carry 'Out this work.

GRANTS TO UNIVERSITIES. Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the

Opposition) .-Is it a fact that the Premier on two occasions has received correspondence from the Commonwealth indicating that if this State, like every other State, were to pay the 6 per cent salary increase flowing to members of academic staffs in universities, as a result of the national wage case, and in the case of Victoria to the institutes of advanced education, the amount paid would attract a matching grant from the Commonwealth?

Sir HENRY DOL TE (Premier and Treasurer) .-1 probably have received two letters from Canberra on this question. The position in Victoria is simple. This is the only State that now permits the universities to have over-matching amounts. In total, Victoria is now paying universities $2.29 million more than the amount required to match the available moneys from Canberra. Victoria is the only State that does this. If the universities like it the same as other States, that will be satisfactory to me, because the Government will immediately save $1.3 million.

I read Dr Matheson's statement in the press this morning. He may be a good engineer, but he would not have passed second grade in arithmetic. I shall state the position regarding the three univerisities. At present, the University of Melbourne is allocated from Victorian sources $1.3 m.illion more than is required for matching grants. . Monash University is paid $780,000 more, and La' Trobe University is being

paid $210,000 more. Even if the universities paid the 6 per cent and attracted the matching grants from Canberra, they would still have in excess of the required amount to match-in the case of Melbourne $830,000, in the 'case of" Monash, $430,000, and in the case of La Trobe, $90,000.

I wish to add tha t when we gave these over-matching paymen1ts to the universities, they submitted to us that they had special problems, and we met those problems. In fact, until I had seen the actual figures I had no idea that we had been as generous as we have been. I 'am pleased that I have gone into the matter at some depth because very shortly this overamount will have to be phased into the matching grants for these universities, and in the next two or three. years this will be of some help to the Government.

The simple answer is that there were no tags on the money allocated, and no tags were applied when the Government accepted that the universities intended to increase their fees. The Government did say that it did not require that as part of Victoria's matching payments-it was entirely the universities' money -and I am mystified to read in the press the comments of critics who state that the Government is not finding the 6 per cent, or its part of that percentage. The Government has already found $1.35 million in excess of that.

Mr. WILKES.-Is that in excess of the matching grants?

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-Yes, in excess of the matching grants if they pay the 6 per. cent.

Mr. WILKES.-Not as a result of. increased fees?

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-Partly fees. The honorable member should know that the formula adopted by the Federal Government provides this State with $1 for every $1.85 allocated, which was worked out on the·

4224 . Questions [ASSEMBLY. ] without· Notice.

basis that $1 matched 85 cents from fees. That has never been the case. The fees never reach anything like 85 cents toward the matching grants. However, I assure the Leader of the Opposition and, through him, the universities that if they desire the same conditions that apply to the other States I am prepared to agree. The Government would be happy to cut out these matching payments and then request a matching grant from the Federal Government on the 6 per cent increase. The universities can work it out and see which way they want it.

TEACHER TRAINING. Mr. DIXON (St. Kilda).-I ask the

Minister of Education: What is being done in Victoria in the field of teacher training to give teachers a sense of vocation?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-This matter could well be discussed with teacher training authorities. I still believe that the majority of teachers are dedicated people, but today there appear to be a significant number of teachers who are placing material gains for themselves in first place and their responsibilities to their pupils in second place'. This is a matter which must be taken into account by teacher training authorities.

AGED PERSONS HOUSING SCHEME.

Mr. WILTON CBroadmeadows).Has the attention of the Minister of Housing been drawn to a statement reported to have been made by Sir Alan Hulme, the Postmaste'r-General, and appearing in yesterday's Sun News-Pictorial, in which he referred to exploitation of the aged by greedy landlords? If the honorable gentleman's attention has not been drawn to this statement, will he please examine it with a view to implementing the suggestions contained in Sir Alan's statement?

Mr. MEAGH;ER (Minister of Housing) .-1 have seen the press statement attributed to Sir Alan Hi.dme and it occurred to me that he was speaking from considerable ignorance of the subject, especially as it applied to Victoria, which is the only State in Australia which has a scheme for housing pensioners at very low rentals. It is the only State that has a scheme of co-operation with municipalities for the express purpose of helping pensioners in their own districts. As a result of this scheme, people have been housed at very favourable rentals in over 5,000 housing units, so more than 5000 people are affected.

Sir Alan Hulme's suggestion that this State should co-operate more with the Commonwealth Government in regard to its aged persons home scheme would not in fact help the really hard-pressed pensioner because, generally speaking, that scheme is directed towards people who can contribute some amount of capital. It is a scheme under which the Commonwealth Government contributes $2 for every $1 raised for aged person housing. I find unattractive Sir Alan Hulme's suggestion that Victoria should adopt that scheme.

I inform the honorable member for Broadmeadows that the Housing Commission, backed by the Government of this State, is doing everything in its power to provide an alternative to the rapacious landlord whom he has described as exploiting pensioners; and I agree that there are some landlords who do that. I remind the honorable member, however, that on the statute-book of this State there is an Act which has established a Fair Rents Board to which pensioners may appeal if they are being exploited. I suggest that pensioners should take advantage of it, but in any event I am doing everything that I can to provide an alternative.


KEW CHILDREN'S COTTAGES. Mr. DOUBE (Albert Park).-In

view of the serious shortage of accommodation for mentally retarded children, why did the Minister of Health direct that work on wards 26 and 27 of the Children's Cottages at Kew should be stopped? In view of the seriousness of the matter, will the Minister reconsider this decision?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-This stoppage has been directed to comply with restrictions which have been imposed over the whole field of State expenditure, and which have resulted from a direction of the Commonwealth Government, through the Treasurer of Victoria, to all departments. The cessation of various activities in Victoria is a direct result of restrictions which have been imposed by the Commonwealth Government, but they can be re-examined after 5th April.

ELTHAM HIGH SCHOOL. Mr. FELL (Greensborough).

Is the Minister of Health aware that in excess of 200 pupils are being supervised during several periods through the week by only one teacher at the Eltham High School; if so, what action is the honorable gentleman taking to correct the situation?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The department has experienced difficulty in providing sufficient staff at a certain number of high schools. One of the major reasons for this difficulty is the attitude which has been adopted by the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association in refusing to allow teachers whose qualifications are below a certain level to be employed-and they include primary school teachers.

There was a case recently of a teacher who was the holder of a degree from the University of Melbourne. Every time she walked into the class-room, the other teachers walked out of the room. She was so upset about it that she faced a ,nervous break-down and, because of

that, was advised to give up teaching. I remind honorable members that that is not an isolated case.

Many teachers would welcome the opportunity to teach at a high school but for the fear of receiving this Coventry-like treatment from an irresponsible body of persons who do not deserve to be called " teachers ".

HOUSEBOATS AT LAKE EILDON. Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).----Can the

Minister of Water Supply inform the House whether there are regulations which govern the disposal of effluent from houseboats at Lake Eildon?

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-I think this information is readily available, and that it is not an appropriate subject of a question.

SUNBURY MENTAL HOSPITAL. Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Can the

Minister 'Of Health inform me whether work has ceased 'On the remodelling 'Of the antiquated wards M5, M6, M7 and M8 at the Sunbury Mental Hospi,tal because 'Of the restrictions placed on the M-en~al Health Authority by the Treasury, and if so, when will work resume 'On these wards?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The answer to the first part of the questi'On is, "Yes", and the answer to 'the second pa'rt is that w'Ork will resume as s'O'On as the Victorian Government can obtain satisfactory treatment from the Commonwealth Government.

OHOCOLATES. Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).

Has the Minister of Labour and Industry noted reports that a national company has been charged With marketing in another State chocolates which are under weight, and if S'O, has he asked the Depamment of Labour and Industry to investigate this company's products in Victoria?

Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answer is " No " to both parts of the question.

4226 Appeal Costs Fund Bill. (ASSEMBLY.] Albert Park Land Bill.

STATUTE LAW REVISION COMMITTEE.

IMPERIAL ACTS ApPLICATION . (REPEALS) BILL.

Mr. A. T. EVANS (Ballaarat North), chairman, presented the report from the Statute Law Revision Committee upon the proposals contained in the Impe'rial Acts Application (Repeals) Bill, together with minutes of evidence.

It was ordered that they be laid on the table, and 'that the report be printed.

APPEAL COSTS FUND BILL. Mr. REID (Attorney-General), by

leave, moved for leave to bring in a Bill ~o amend the Appeall Costs Fund Aot 1964.


a first time.

HEALTH (TUBERCULOSIS ARRANGEMENT) BILL.

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health), by leave, moved for leave to bring in a BiU ito amend Part VII. of the Health Act 1958 and the Fifth Schedule the'reto.

ALBERT PARK LAND BILL. Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of

Lands), by <leave, moved f'Or leave t'O bring in a Bill to provide for closing of part of Bridport Street at Albert Park in the City of South Melbourne, and for other purposes.

The m'oltion was agreed to.

The Bill was brought in and read a first time.

MELBOURNE UNIVERSITY LAND BILL.

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) presented a message from His Excellency the Governor rec'Ommending that an appropriation be made from the Consolidated Fund for the purposes of a Bill to provide for the revocation of certain Crown grants and reservations of lands at Carlton and to provide for the grant of such lands to the University of M·elbourne.

A resoluti'on in accordance with the recommendation was passed in C'Ommi:ttee and adopted by the House.

On the motion 'Of Mr. BORTHWICK (MiniS'ter of Liands), the Bill was brought in and read a first time.

The moitton was agreed to. JOINT SITIING OF PARLIAMENT. The Bill was brought in and read

a first time.

VICTORIA INSTITUTE OF COLLEGES (AMENDMENT) BILL.

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) , by leave, moved for leave to bring lin a Bill to amend the Victoria Institute of Colleges Act 1965.

The motion was agreed to. . The Bill was broughit in and read a first time.

VERMIN AND NOXIOUS WEEDS (AMENDMENT) BILL (No.2).

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands), by leave, moved for leave !O bring in a BiH to amend the VermIn and NoxioU's W'eeds Act 1958.

The motion was agreed ·to. The Bill was brought in and read

a first time.

VICTORIA INSTITUTE 'OF C'OLLEGES. 'rhe SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon

Christie).-I have received a letter . from the Minister of Education, which I shall ask the Clerk-Assistant to read.

The CLERK-AsSISTANT read the following letter:-

Dear Mr. Speaker,

Treasury Place, Melbourne, Vic. 3002. 12th March, 1971.

Section 7 of the Victoria Institute of Colleges Act 1965 provides that three members of the council shall be members of the Parliament of Victoria who have been recommended for appoin1tment by a joint sitting of the members of the Legislative Council and the Legislative Assembly conducted in accordance with the rules adopted for the purpose by the members present at the sitting. Messrs. A. W. Taylor, E.D.,

Trustee Companies ," [23 MARCH, 1971.] (Equity Trustees) Bill. 4227

M.P., T. C. Trewin, M.P., and C. T. Edmunds, M.P., were appointed under this section and their term of office expires on the 7th June, 1971.

I should be grateful if you would arrange for a joint sitting of the members of the Legislative Council and tthe Legislative Assembly to recommend three members for appOintment to ,the Council of the Victoria Institute of Colleges for the four-year term commencing on the 8th June, 1971.

Yours truly, (L. H. S. TIlOMPSON) Minister of Education.

The Hon. V. Christie, M.P., Speaker of the Legislative Assembly, Parliament House, Melbourne, 3002.

TRUSTEE COMPANIES (EQUITY TRUSTEES) BILL.

The Order of the Day for the second reading of this Bill was read.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-I have examined this Bill and am of opinion that it is a private Bill.

Mr. REID (Attorney-General) .By leave, I move-

That all the private Bill Standing Orders, except those relating Ito the payment of fees, be dispensed with, and that this Bill be treated as a public Bill.

The motion was agreed to. Mr. REID (Attorney-General) .

I move-That this Bill be now read 'a second time.

Its purpose is to amend the Trustee Companies Act 1958 to authorize the Equity Trustees Executors and Agency Company Limited to alter its share capital.

The Equity Trustees Executors and Agency Company Limited was incorporated in 1888 under the Companies Statute of 1864. During 1888, a private Act conferred power on the company to be appointed and to act as executor of deceased estates and amongst its provisions were restrictions with regard to the capital and shares of the company. These provisions are now contained in the Trustee Companies Act 1958 and the special provisions relating to the equity trustees company are contained in item 6 of the Second Schedule to the Act.

One of the common provisions to' be found in the Second Schedule is a requirement that a trustee company shall leave uncalled a proportion of its share capital which can be called up in the event of a liquidation. Such a provision appears in item 6. This capital is a type lof guarantee fund to protect beneficiaries who might be entitled to sue the company for breaches of trust.,

However, the company's paid capital of $180,000 has become more and more an untrue reflection of its financial position. Today more than $1 million is held in various reserves and the last announced net profit was $90,000. In these circumstances it is highly desirable that part of the reserves should be capitalized, but the normal method of capitalizing reserves by the issue of bonus 'Shares is not available because the company is required to have an uncalled liabIlity in respect of each share. The total of such liability i'S $720,000.

The Bill, therefore, proposes to fix the uncalled share capital at $720,000 and to insert provisions which will permit other shares to be issued as fully paid shares. This will have the effect of converting some of the reserves to capital which cannot in any circums'tances be distributed, and improve the financial protection of the company and the protection given to shareholders. At present the reserves could bE' di'stributed by way of dividend to shareholders.

Clause 1 contains the usual short title and citation provisions. Clause 2 proposes the substitution of a new item 6 in the Second Schedule to the principal Act. The changes made in the existing provisions are-

( a) The restriction on the shareholding of individual members has been changed from 1,000 shares to a one hundred and eightieth part of the nominal amount of the issued capital. At present this is equivalent to 1,000 shares of $5, and the amended pro-

4228 Liquor Control [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

vision will enable a proportionate increase in individual shareholding as issued capital is increased.

. (b) In lieu of the present requirement that no more than $1 a share shall be called up except in the event of winding up, a minimum uncalled capital or reserve liability of $720,000 is fixed. This is consistent with the provision made in 1969 in respect of Burns Philp Trustee Company Limited.

(c) The provision as to liability, in the event of winding up, of persons who have been directors within the preceding two years is unchanged, save that in lieu of the liability being expressed a'S $4 for every share held and transferred during such period of two years it is now expressed as the uncalled capital and reserve liability on each such 'share.

(d) The provision requiring that the capital of the company shall remain divided into shares of $5 and that the number of shares shall not be reduced below 50,000 is replaced by the provision enabling the company, . subject to section 24 of the principal Act, to alter its share capital in accordance with the Companies Act other than by reducing its share capital. Section 24 gives to the Supreme Court power to restrain a voluntary winding up of a trustee company or disposal of shares in a trustee company.

I emphasize that the Bill authorizes the company to alter its share capital in the same way as other companies ~re permitted to do so by the Companies Act, except that in no circumstances can the company reduce its share capital. Furthermore, the existing protection for beneficiaries by means of uncalled capital of $720,000 is preserved. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, April 6~ Mr. Reid

LIQUOR CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL.


That this Bill be now read a second time. In 1968, the Liquor Control Act was passed to completely re-enact and modernize the law relating to the sale and disposal of liquor. The purpose of the present measure is to make a number of amendments to that Act which have become necessary or desirable in the light of experience of the operation of that new law. As the amendments are in general unrelated, I shall deal with each clause separately. In essence, this is a Committee Bill.

The scheme of the Liquor Control Act 1968 is that no person shall sell liquor unless he is the holder of a licence or permit under that Act. Section 4 of the principal Act provides tha t the provisions of the Act shall not apply in certain circumstances. One of these circumstances is that the Act shall not apply to any auctioneer selling liquor by auction on account of any person authorized by law to sell liquor.

It is necessary that there should be a provision in the Act under which a person who is relinquishing his licence should be able to dispose of his stock on hand which no longer is required in connection with his business. In practice, however, it has been found that the provision is being misused. A recent instance has come to notice where the holder of a retail bottle licence arranged with an auctioneer to auction liquor on his behalf at the auctioneer's premises. The sale was advertised in the daily press.

Under the new paragraph (f) of sub-section (1) of section 4 as proposed by clause 2, the exemption will be confined to the auction of liquor on account of a licensee who within the preceding three months has failed to renew his licence, has surrendered his licence, or has had his licence determined or cancelled. The sale must also have the approval of the Liquor Control Commission.

Liquor Control [23 MARCH, 1971.] (Am(!ndment) Bill. 4229

The interpretation of "licensed premises" in section 5 of the principal Act envisages three separate situations-one in relation to a ship's licence, the second with respect to a hotel-keeper's licence, and the third with respect to all other types of licences. The definition of a hotelkeeper's licence includes in the licensed premises "the whole of the land and premises whether contiguous or not used for or in connection with the conduct of the hotel" unless expressly excluded therefrom on the plan approved by the commission. In the case of other licences-apart from a ship's licence-the definition purports to include in the licensed premises the portion of the land buildings and improvements which are shown on the plan approved by the commission.

The interpretation which the commission places upon the definition of a hotel-keeper's licence is that the licensed premises can comprise any number of separate buildings even though those buildings are separated by areas of land which are not comprised in the licensed premises. The commission takes this view because the definition states that" in relation to 'an hOltel-keeper's licence' licensed premises' means the whole of the land and buildings whether contiguous or not ".

In view 'Of such specific provisions with resp'ect 'to hotel-keepers' lic'ences a~d. in t~e absence of a similar proVlS,lon With respect to 'other 'licences, the commi'ssion considers that there cannot be more than one building in the "licensed premises" in relation to thO'se 'Other licences. In reaching that conclusion with respect to other licences, the commissi'On places emphasis on the uS'e in the definition 'Of the words "~he portion of the land buildings and improvements which is shown on the plan 'approved". Such an inte'rpretation by the commission leads to difficulties in the case of a restaurant licence where the dining ro'Om ''is in a separate building from the accommodation and the licensee se'eks to 'Obtain a "mote'l permit"

pursuant ~o paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of section 28 to sell and dispose of liquor " at any time to an inmate of the licensed premises". To obt~in such a permit 'the building in whIch accommoda1jon is provided m'~st form part of the licensed premls'es.

The amendment contained in clause 3 of the Bill is intended to make it clear that "licensed premises" with respect to licences other than a hotelkeeper's licence and a ship's licence may comprise a number 'Of portions of land, buildings and improvements shown on the plan.

Pursuant to sub-section (2) of sec1!ion 6 'Of the principal Act, the Governor in Council may app'Oint not m'Ore than four persons to constitute the Liquor Control C'Ommission, one of Whom must be a judge of the County Court who shall be chairman of the commission. Applicants for the granting of all new licences, 'Other than booth and ship licences, must be heard and determined by the full c'Ommission which is constituted by the chairman and two other members of the c'Omm:ission. The invest'igati'On and determination of l'icences in particular areas, as provided for in section 147, must also be carried out by the full commiss1i'on.

For the year ended 30th June, 1968, the commissi'On had 159 appl'icati'Ons for new licences. Sixty of those were appl'icati'Ons carried over from the previous ye'ar and 99 were applications received during ,thaJt year. In the twelve months to the 30th June of that year the commission disposed of 77 'Of the 159 applications leaving 8'2 applications still to be heard. On 1st July, 1969, th'e're were 95 applications on hand and during the foUowing twelve months 190 new applications were received with the result that for the year ended 30th June, 1970, there were 285 applications to be dealt with. Of these the commission disposed of 150 leaving a balance of 135 applications still

pending.


The fuB commission has been able to deal with the considerable increase in new lic'ences with reasonable despatch, but in so do'ing 'it has been unable to deal effectively with determinations 'Of licences and the calculation of compensation with respect to those licences in accordance with section 147. With the increase in membership of the commission to six persons and the power of the Governor 'in Council to app'Oint a judge 'Of the OOWllty Court to be an additional chairman as provided in the Bill, it will be poss'ible forr two full comm1iss'rons to operate at the one tim~.

Under this arrangement it will be possible for ~he sec'Ond fiullcommission sitting for 'three 'Or four m'Onths of the year to deal with new applicati'Ons and for t!he 'Other full c'Ommiss'ron to devote its attention t'O other matters such as the determination of lieences and the calculation of compensation therefior. Clause 4 increases the maxim'urn number of members 'Of 'the comm'ission from four 'to six and provides for the apPOintment by the Governor in Council of an addiltional chairman who shall be a judge of tthe County Court. The clause also makes various consequentia'l amendments.

Mr. DouBE.-Will the additional chairman be in any way under the direction 'of the 'Olther chairman?

Mr. REID.-I should nOit think it would be accurate to say that he would be under hlis direc'tion; he would act in accordance with the generall po'licy and procedure of the commission, ,but he would sit as an independent tribunal.

Under the principal Act as it now stands it would 'appear that members of the commission are subject to an action for libel, damages, and so on, arising out of their actions or remarks in the course of the performance of their duties under the Act. If the commisSion is to function without restraint, it is desirable that members should have a statutory protection against such actions. The Bill

affords members of the commission a protection similar to that enjoyed by members of the Public Service Board. Under the new section 9A no acDion shaH be brought or maintained against the commission or any person who had been or is a member of the commission for any nonfeasance or misfeasance in connection wth its or bis duties.

Paragraph (a) of clause 6 contains a consequential amendment. Pursuant to paragraph (f) of sub-section (I) of section 26 the holder of a hotelkeeper's licence may, pursuant to an annual permit obtained from the commission, sell and dispose of lliquor between 10 p.m. and such time whether before or after midnight as is specified in the permit for consumption "at a function held on a particular occasion" . The commission interprets "function" to be the celebration of a wedding, birthday, christening, and so on, and a " particular occasion" to be the celebration of an event such as the Queen's Birthday or American Independence Day.

The amendment contained ~n paragraph (b) widens the paragraph in that it authorizes the consumption of liquor under such a permit at a particular function or on a particular occasion and not only at a function held on a particular occasion.

A hotel-keeper's licence authorizes the licensee to sell and dispose of liquor on any day except Sunday, or Good Friday between 10 a.m. and 10 p.m. On Anzac Day tr.ading may take place during the hours from I p.m. until 10 p.m. Under the authority of an annual permit the licensee may sell and dispose of liquor for consumption with or ancillary to a bona fide meal or substantial refreshments between 10 p.m. and 11.30 p.m. on any day other than Sunday or Good Friday.

It has been represented to the Government that there is a growing demand for extension of permits to authorize the holder of a hote1-keeper's licence and a restaurant

Liquor ~ontrol [23 MARCH, 1971.] (Amendment) Bill. 4231

licence to provide champagne breakfasts at particular functions or particular occasions. The amendment contalined in paragraph (c) of clause 6 of the Bill will enable the commission to grant a permit under which the holder of a hotel-keeper's licence will be authorized to sell and dispose of liquor for consumption with or ancillary to a bona fide meal at a particular function or a particular occasion between 8 a.m. and 10 a.m. on any day other than Sunday, Good Friday and Anzac Day on specified parts of the premises.

A similar provision with respect to a restaurant licence is dealt with under clause 8 of the Bill. Paragraphs (d), (e) and (f) of clause 6 make consequential amendments to subsections (2), (3) and (6) of section 26.

Pursuant to section 27 of the principal Act a booth licence authorizes the licensee, who must be either the holder of a 'hotel-keeper's licence or the holder of a restaurant licence, to sell and dispose of liquor during such hours between 10 a.m. and 10 p.m. on any day except Sunday and Good Friday and after 1 p.m. on Anzac Day as are determined by the commission and sped-fied in the licence at fairs, agricultural and horticultural shows, festivals~ exhibitions and various sporting fixtures. It has been drawn to attention that at some sporting meetings not all events have been concluded when the booth licence expires at 10 p.m.

The Bill will enable the commission to specify hours during which the licensee may sell and dispose of liquor having regard to the circumstances of the particular entertainment and without the statutory limitation that the hour determined by the commission shall not be after 10 p.m.

The amendments effected by clause 8 will enable the holder of a restaurant licence to obtain a permit to sell and dispose of liquor at a champagne breakfast in a manner

similar to that to which I have referred earlier with respect to the holder of a hotel-keeper's licence. The effect of this amendment is that it provides a period of 30 minutes' grace in which liquor purchased before 11.30 p.m. under the authority of a theatre licence may be consumed. A similar period of grace already applies with respect to various other types of licence.

Pursuant to section 33 of the principal Act the holder of a retail bottle liquor licence may obtain a permit from the commission authorizing him, subject to such terms and conditions as the commission thinks fit, to supply gratuitously wines, spirits, cider, perry or mead to an intending purchaser for consumption on specified parts of the premises. I doubt whether any honorable member has ever asked for a glass of perry or a glass of mead.

Mr. DouBE.-What is perry?

Mr. REID.-It is a drink fermented from pears. The section also authorizes the commission to grant a similar permit to the holder of a wholesale liquor merchant's licence for the gratuitous supply of liquor to clients. Clause 10 extends similar " wine tasting" facilities to the holder of a vigneron's licence.

The amendment empowers the commission to grant a permit to the holder of a vigneron's licence authorizing him, subject to such terms and conditions as the commission thinks fit, to supply liquor gratuitously to intending purchasers and clients for consumption on a speCified part or parts of the premises. The types of liquor which may be gratuitously supplied are restricted to those types of liquor which may be sold or disposed of under a vigneron's licence.

The term" brewer," as interpreted by section 5 of the principal Act, means any maker of fermented malt liquor or any fermented liquor made from sugar or saccharine matter and termed beer, ale. stout, porter or which is described by any other term referring to a potent brew.


Mr. EDMUNDs.-Does that include " Shandy"?

Mr. REID.-Any reference to cc Shandy" is irrelevant to this BiII. In accordance with section 37 of the principal Act a brewer's licence authorizes a licensee to sell and dispose of beer, ale, porter or wine to a .li<:ensee. Clause 11 brings stoUJt wIthIn the authority of a brewer's licence.

Section 45 of the principal Act makes it an offence for any person to consume, supply, possess or have un~er his control any liquor in a cafe, unlIcensed club or public hall otherwise than in accordance with a permit issued under that 'Section. Sub-section (3) of section 45 provides that if liquor is kept for sale, supply or consumption in an unlicensed club otherwise than in accordance with a permit under the section, every officer and member of the committee of the club shall be guilty of an offence unless he proves to the satisfaction of the court that such liquor was so kept without his knowledge or against his orders. It often happens that liquor which is to be sold or disposed of under the authority of a booth licence at a forthcoming entertainment is delivered to the premises of the unlicensed club a day or so in advance. Under the provisions of sub-section (3) the officers and members of the committee would be guilty of an offence. The effect of the amendment contained in paragraph (a) of clause 12 is that liquor on the premises of an unlicensed club fOT sale, supply or consumption in accordance with a booth licence will not constitute an offence under ·subsection (3) of section 45 of the principal Act.

Sub-section (4) of section 45 empowers the commission to gran t an annual permit authorizing the consumption, possession, or control of li9uor by persol'l:s over the age of eIghteen years" at a particular function or particular occasion in ~ public hall" which is regularly used for dances or other entertainment during

such hours between 9 a.m. and 1.30 a.m. the following day, as the commission thinks fit. Such period of hours does not include hours on a Sunday or Good Friday. The purpose of the amendment contained . in paragraph (b) is to make It clear that the authority of an annual permit applies to any particular functions or occasio~s held in the relevant public hall durmg the currency of that permit.

Paragraph (c) of clause 12 substitutes a new sub-section for the existing sub-section (11) of section 45. A permit granted pursuant to sub-section (4) of this section authorizes the consumption, possession or control of liquor in unlicensed clubs but does not, by virtue of subs~ction (11),. authorize the consumptIon, posseSSIOn or control of liquor in such clubs on a Sunday except between the hours of 12 noon and 2.30 p.m. and between 4.30 p.m. and 6.30 p.m. The effect of the amend~ents contain~d in paragraph (c) IS . th~t a I?ermIt granted by the commISSIOn WIth respect to an unlicensed club may authorize persons to consume their own. liquor on the premises of the club-

(a) between the hours of 12 noon and 2.30 p.m. and between the hours of 4.30 p.m. and 6.30 p.m.; and

(b) with or ancillary to a bona fide meal supplied by the club between the hours of 12 noon and 2.30 p.m. and the hours of 6 p.m. and 10 p.m.

The new sub-section (11) does not continue the prohibition on the possession or control of liquor in an unlicensed club during the hours on a Sunday when it may not lawfully be consumed.

Se~tion 51 of the principal Act prOVIdes that the commission shall not grant or renew a club licence unless the club has, amongst other things, certain specified rules. Subparagra~h (xiii) of paragraph (1) of sub-sectIOn (1) of that section provides that so long as the club is licensed under the Act no alteration

Liquor Control [23 MARCH, 1971.] (Amendment) Bill. 4233

or variation of such rules shall be effected unless and until such alterations or variations have been approved by the commission. The purpose of the amendment contained in clause 13 of the Bill is to make it clear that the paragraph is applicable to all rules which it is required to have and not only the rules referred to in paragraph (f).

Paragraph (c) of sub-section (3) of section 52 of the principal Act provides that a copy of a notice of application for a licence shall be advertised at least 21 days before the date of the application in a newspaper circulating in the area in which the premises are or are proposed to be situated. Sub-section (2) of section 54 provides, amongst other things, that a person intending to object to the granting of a licence must lodge his objection within fourteen days of the date of hearing. In these circumstances, a person who desires to make an objection may have only seven days in which to lodge his objection. This time is considered insufficient. Clause 14 of the Bill requires the notice to be advertised at least 28 days before the date specified for the application.

The amlendment contained in clause 15 substitutes the words" less accommodation or a lower standard of accommodation" for the words " a lesser or lower standard of accommodation " in sub-section (9) of section 52. The amendment does not change the intention of the subsection but merely clarifies its meaning.

Section 55 of the principal Act sets down the objections which may be taken to the granting of an application for a licence. Three of these objections are applicable to all types of licence and three additional objections are applicable to hotel-keepers' licences. The section also states fourteen objections which may be taken to the granting of a club licence. The chairman of the commission has suggested to the Government that there should be provisions in section 55 under "vhich the

commission can entertain any objection which in its opinion may properly be taken. The Government is in agreement with that suggestion. Clause 16 of the Bill empowers the commission to hear any other objection which appears Ito the commission to be sufficient.

In many cases, the commission is authorized to grant licences subject to such restrictions and conditions as it thinks fit. Doubts have arisen whether the commission has power to impose restrictions and conditions with respect to the renewal of a licence. The chairman of the commission has pointed out that there are many instances where licences have been granted without restrictions or conditions and that, in the light of experience, it is desirable that certain conditions or restrictions should be imposed. There are also instances where conditions or restrictions should be varied. Clause 17 inserts a new provision into the Act which empowers the commission to renew any licence subject to such restrictions or conditions as it thinks fit.

Section 58 of the principal Act provides that an objection to the renewal of any licence may be made by any person who would be entitled to object to the granting of a new licence. The grounds of objection are set out in that section. Clause 18 substitutes a new sub-section (3) to provide that a person intending to object to an application for renewal of a licence shall give not less than fourteen days' notice before the date specified in the making of the application and shall give full particulars of the grounds upon which his objection will be based.

Section 63 of the principal Act deals with transfers of licences and requires notice and advertisement similar to that required on an application for the granting of a new licence. Sub-section ( 4) of section 64 requires the licensing inspector to make a searching investigation as to the character and suitability of the proposed transferee and as to the

4234 _ Liquor Control- [ASSE~LY.] (Amendment) Bill.

genuineness and value of the testimonials and to report in writing to the commission. However, there is no right in any person to object to the transfer of a licence as there are no stated grounds of objection. The responsibility is upon the commission to be satisfied as to the character and suitability of the transferee to hold the licence.

The amendment to section 64 contained in clause 19 provides that an objection to the transfer of a licence may be made by any person who would be entitled to object to the granting of a new licence on any of the grounds similar to those which may be taken on an application for the renewal of a licence. The notice of intention to object must be given at least fourteen days before the date of the application and must set out the grounds upon which it is intended to object.

Sub-section (1) of section 67 provides that where an hotel-keeper's licence is held by a body corporate no person shall be appointed as a director of that body corporate at any time after the licence has been granted unless such appointment is approved by the commission. The chairman of the commission has recommended to the Government that a similar approval of directors should apply to all types of licence. The Government accepts the recommendation and the amendment is effected by clause 20.

Section 77 of the principal Act provides that if the holder of a licence -other than a hotel-keeper's licence, works licence or a booth licence-or the owner of a hotel-keeper's licence wishes to remove the licence to other premises he shall give notice of his intended application at least 28 days before !the date specified in the application in the same form as the notice is required to be given of an application for a licence. However, the section does not make any provision for advertising the notice. Paragraph (a) of clause 21 requires a notice to be advertised at least 28 days before the date specified in Mr. Reid.

the application in a newspaper circulating in the area from which and to which it lis desired to remove the licence.

Paragraph (b) of the same clause makes a similar amendment in section 77 as clause 15 of this Bill makes to section 52 of the principal Act. It substitutes the words "less accommodation or a lower standard of accommodation" for the words" lesser or lower standard of accommodation ". The words a.re substituted for the purpose of clarification.

With respect to the removal of a licence pursuant to section 77 there are no stated grounds of objection. The amendment contained in paragraph (c) of clause 21 provides that an objection to the removal of a licence may be based upon grounds similar to those applicable to the renewal of a licence. The notice of intention to object must be given at least fourteen days before the date of the application and must set out the grounds upon which it is intended to objeGt with full particulars of the grounds thereof.

Section 85 of the principal Act requires the licensee to keep the licensed premises and all fittings and fixtures therein thoroughly cleansed and in good sanitary condition. The licensing inspector or the supervisor may serve an order on the licensee requiring him to remove any condition which is in breach of the section. Pursuant to sub-section (4) of that section, that order has the same operation and effect in relation to any person to whom the licence is transferred as it has upon the person on whom it is served.

Section 81 empowers the commission, where it 'is of 1:he 'Opini'On that it is in :the public inlterest that there s'hould be a variation in any licensed premises, or that the furniture, fittings, accommodation services or amenities are inadequate or unsuitable, to call upon the owner or the licensee or both of them to show cause why they should not be required to carry out the variation or remedy the inadequacy or unsuitability. There is

Liquor Control [23 MARCH, 1971.] (Amendment) Bill. 4235

no provision similar to sub-section (4) of section 85 with respect to·a requirement made under section 81. Clause 22 of the Bill provides that any requirement issued under section 81 has the same operation and effect in relation to any new owner or to any person to whom the licence is transferred as it has on the previous owner or licensee.

Sub-section (1) of section 101 prohibits a licensee----other than the holder of a wholesale liquor merchant's licence or a retail bottle liquor licence-from permitting any pers'On t'O manage, superintend or conduct the business of his licensed premises during his absence for a periods of less than 28 days in any year without the previous consent in writing of the commission. Instances have come to notice where the person left to manage, superintend or conduct the business of the licensee is unsuitable for the purpose. For example, in one case the licensee left his seventeenyear-old s'On to manage 'the 'licensed premises. In other instances, licensees have absented themselves from the licensed premises for periods of less than 28 days without appointing a person to be in charge of the premises during his absence. This practice is highly undesirable.

Under the amendment contained in clause 23 any person left to manage, superintend or conduct the business of a licensed premises-other than those of a wholesale liquor merchant 'Or of a reltail bottled l'icensee-mU'st be a fit and proper person over the age of 21 years. If a licensee is absent from his licensed premises he must appoint a pers'On, in wfi:ting, to be in charge of the premises during his absence, and if he is absent from such premises for more than 28 days the licensee must obtain the prior consent, in writing, of the commission. The amendment also requires any person left in charge of such premises to produce his appointment when required by a supervisor of licensed premises or a member of the Police Force.

Section 135 of the principal Act requires service of notices or orders by registered post on persons other than the owner. However, s'ecti'On 136 merely requires 'the use of 'Ordinary post for service of orders on an owner. It is considered that service by registered post is at least as important in the case 'of an 'Owner as it is in the case of a licensee who is ordinarily present at the licensed premises. Clause 24 provides for the service of notices on an 'Owner under secti'On 136 to be made by registered post.

Clause 25 inserts a new provision into the LiqU'or Control Act 1968. Its effect is that anything done, suffered or omitted by any person in pursuance of any permit, permissi'On or authority lawfully given under the Act and in accordance wilth the terms and conditions thereof shaH not be an offence under the Act. This provision is similar to section 151 of the Licensing Act 1958, which was repealed by the Liquor Control Act 1968.

Section 153 'Of the principal Act requires that where a licence has been determined, six weeks notice in the Government Gazette and the local newspaper shall be made of the amount 'Of c'Ompensation to be paid. A mortgagee has one month in which to give notice with the c'Ommission and 'On giving notice he shall have the first charge on the compensation m'Oney unless otherwise ordered by a judge 'Of t!he Supreme Court. The 'Owner has the right to dispute the charge. The chairman of the commissi'On has suggested that a similar provisi'On shoU'ld be extended to the surrender of a licence. The amendment contained in clause 26 makes th'e provisions of section 153 applicable to both determinaiti'On and surrender of licences under t!he Act. I c'Ommend the Bill to the H'Ouse.

On the motion of Mr. WILKES (North cote ) , the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourn'ed until Tuesday, April 6.

4236 Building Societies [ASSE¥BL Y.] (Amendment) Bill.

BUILDING SOCIETIES (AMENDMENT) BILL. .

The debate (adjourned from November 1'8, 1970) 'On the motion of Mr. Meagher (Min'is,ter 'Of Housing) for the S'econd reading of this BiB was resumed.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-This Bill was introduced into the HouS'e on 17,fu November of last year and the Minister's second-reading speech appears at pages 2077 to 2082 in~ elusive of Hansard of the following day. The Minister's speech dearly and fully expla'ins this comprehensive m'eas'Ure, which makes many alterations to the Building Societies Act.

H'Onorable m:embers should realize that the Bill relates to permanent building societies and not to co-operative hous!ing societies, and I am sure m'Ost honorable members are aware of the princip~e 'On which permanent building societies 'Operate. They have a share capital which may be subscribed by individuals or by organizations. The share capital of the building s'Ociety of whIch I am the chairman-the society c'Onducted by the Austra'l'ian Natives As'SO'ciationis subscribed by that organization. ~he main source of funds for build

ing s'O'cieties, apart from share capital, consists of 'interest on loans which are offered to members of the society or to outsiders and under present legislati'on those toans must not exceed five tim:es the subscribed capital of the society. A s'Ociety aUows dep'Osiitors a certain rate of in1terest and 'Usually 'lends the money 'Out at a small margin of approximately 1 to I! per cent. Most, if not all, permanent building societies are not conducted to make large profits. Shareholders are interested in making money available for homes and are prepared to accept small returns on their capital.

This comprehensive measure is designed to impose a number of desirable controls on the operations of permanent building societies which have experienced substantial growth over recent years. The number of societies operating in Victoria,

according to the latest bulletin issued by the Commonwealth Bureau of Census and Statistics in January, 1971, was 47, and in Australia there were 188 societies. The bulletin also indicates that loans advanced by the societies in Australia as at January, 1971, totalled $124 million. In his second-reading speech, the Minister of Housing said that the figure was approximately $100 million. A comparison of these figures indicates the rate at which advances have increased since the Minister made his speech and demonstrates that the societies are expanding at a considerable rate.

The main purpose of the Bill, which embodies a number of separate provisions, is to ensure that those who deposit moneys with societies can be reasonably assured that they will get their money back when they want it. This is achieved by a provision under which a society is obliged to keep a certain percentage of its money in liquid assets so that should there be a run by depositors for the return of their money it will be available and the society will not be in an embarrassing position. The Bill contains a number of separate provisions and I do not propose to deal with them in the same detail as did the Minister because, to a certain extent, the Bill may be regarded as a Committee measure.

The first important provision contained in the Bill is that new societies must have, within such time as the registrar may require, funds of not less than $200,000, of which $50,000 must consist of investing shares and $150,000 of loans or deposits that are not withdrawable for less than ten years. This will ensure that a certain proportion of the money cannot be withdrawn suddenly. Many investors place their money with permanent building societies at call and if all this money were suddenly recalled a society could be in an embarrassing if not critical position.

Building Societies [23 MARCH, 1971.] (Amendment) Bill. 4237

In his second-reading speech the Minister said that although this provision was not written into the present Act, in recent years the registrar had been requiring all new societies to conform t'O a similar provision. The purpose is to have a nucleus of long-term funds with a view to 'Obviating any early liquidity problem. This clause will ensure that there will not be a mushrooming of societies because it provides that within a certain period after registration societies must have $200,000 in long-term liabilities.

No definite period is stated in which this shall be achieved; it is a matter of expediency. One could not expect a society to be formed and immediately to have $150,000 of loans of at least ten years' duration before it was able t'O find ways in which that money could be lent. Societies work on a small margin of profit and they cannot be expected to have large amounts of money remaining idle.

The second main provision in the Bill is that societies may make advances to each other in excess of $20,000. Under the present Act provision is made for special advances and these are limited to $20,000 to anyone person. The purp'Ose of the limitation is to create a greater spread 'Of security.

The next main provision in the Bill is that the registrar shall have discretion to authorize the distribution of reserves. In his second-reading speech the Minister explained that certain societies might be able to take advantage of the provisions of the Income Tax Assessment Act if they could distribute some of their reserves. This would apply only to particular cases and it is not necessary for me to give examples.

A most important provision in the measure is that which provides that a society must hold at least 10 per cent of its withdrawal funds in liquid assets and have stand-by arrangements for up tQ a further 10 per cent of its short-term funds. In other words, a society can be required to have at least 10 per cent of the money

that it has advanced in the form of liquid assets. Liquid assets, which are funds that are readily available, are defined in the Bill. A s'Odety c'Ould have a stand-by arrangement with a bank or some other organization which, in the event of the society wanting money, will make the money available to the society. In most instances, a bank gives a guarantee but an association such as the Australian Natives Associa'~ion---"the board of directors of this society holds liquid funds of at least 10 per cent-can make s'Uch provisi'On. The Bill provides 'that the s'Ociety shaU be given up to two years' notice to achieve the require(i 'liquidity.

Under 'clause 3, which amends section 14, mirrors whO' are members of a society wiH a'lso be able to deposit funds with the society. The Bill will als'O allow a society, with the consent 'Of the regisltrar, to subscribe for 'Or purchase shares in any body c'Orporate that has agreed to provide any administra1tive or financial services to the society which are likely to further It~e 'Objects of the S'ociety. This will enable s'Ocieties to purchase shares in B uHding Society Resources Limited, a c'Ompany which stood, as it were, ready to back the societies in case of em'ergency. The Bill will further enable societies to deal in mortgages---.;it envisages trading in mortgages-and to lend am'Ongst themselves and to trade mortgages amongst thems1e'lves.

Clause 6 of the Bill contains a new definition of paid-up capital relating to withdrawal shares and for the benefit of readers of Hansard I shall recapitulate what is proposed. In his second-reading speech, the Minister said-

The amendment proposed in clause 6 should increase share investments in those societies and enable them to borrow further funds on deposit.

The proposed rule to be enforced by the registrar reads as follows:-The Minister then stated What was quoted in the proposed rule, namely-

The repayment of shares after notice of withdrawal shall be made in priority of receipt of notices, provided that the board

4238 Building Societies [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

shall not be required to payout in respect of withdrawals a greater amount than the total amount which has been paid in reduction of mortgage loans during the previous year and may defer payment until the conclusion of the then current financial year.

Clause 8 enlarges the powers of societies in relation to the investment of surplus funds, which is already covered by the existing Act. The Bill proposes powers wh'ich will cover the short-term money market. Furt!her, it makes provisi'On for a society which gets into difficulties to be carried on under official management, as is don'e under the Companies Act. At present, permanent building societies can encounter difficulties but there 'is no provision which will assist them other than for winding them up. This provision will assist a s'Ociety without winding it up. The Bill further providels that the registrar may, if he is satisfied that a society has ceas'ed to carry on business as a society, wind it up in the same way as may be done with companies.

Clause 11 makes provision for amalgama'ti'ons and mergers and for the transfer of a society's engagements Ito another society. I have given honorable members an outline of the malin prOVisions of the Bill. When the Bill was in'1:roduc'ed last year, I circulated copies :to a number of permanent building societies and I received no adverse criticism from any of them. It is a nonparty measure which is des~g~ed to ensure that permanent buIldlng societies are S'O c'Ontrolled, . so managed and S'O guided that catastrophies of the type that occurred to a number of companies concerning which investigations have been made in recent years will be avoided. This measure will obviate completely mushroom societies springing up and causing heartaches and heartburning among the public.

Clause 12, which is the final clause, makes provision for founders' shares. Under the existing legislation founders' shares are not to be transferred within a period of five years Mr. Clarey

except by operation of law. No provision is made with regard to founders' shares in the event of the holder dying. The Bill provides that in the case of the death of the holder or otherwise, founders' shares can be transferred in the ordinary way.

To a certain extent the Bill is a Committee measure. I have stated in broad outline the objectives of the measure as explained by the Minister. It is not a Bill against which any honorable member can cavil. I have received no objections concerning the proposals from the building societies to which I forwarded copies of the Bill and I presume that they are satisfied with it.

Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD (Rodney). -Members of the Country Party fully support the Bill, which will improve the legislation governing permanent building societies in Victoria. I was interested to hear the comments of the honorable member for Melbourne. Since the Bill was introduced some five months ago, permanent building societies have had an opportunity of examining the proposals contained in it and they are satisfied that the legislation will prove beneficial to all concerned. Building societies in the past have performed creditable work within the limitation of the financial accommodation at their disposal. When explaining the Bill to honorable members last November, the Minister of Housing dealt fully with the various provisions and members of the Country Party endorse what is proposed.

The Minister has said that the amending legislation is designed to impose a number of desirable controls on the operations of permanent buildings societies, which have experienced a substantial growth in this State in the past. I hope that the growth to which the honorable gentleman referred will continue. I believe this can be done by encouraging building societies to invest their surplus funds. The Minister should not make it so hard and fast that building societies cannot invest their


surplus funds. The honorable gentleman stated that the majority of building societies are now paying at least 6i per cent on moneys invested and charging at least 8 per cent on loans made by them, thereby making a profit of only Ii per cent.

Mr. CLAREy.-Different societies are charging different rates of interest.

Mr. R. S. L. MAcDONALD.-That is so, but the constitutions of each society must be approved by the Registrar of Permanent Building Societies. Certain variations in interest rates exist, but the societies are not making a great amount of profit. Societies should be encouraged to invest surplus moneys provided that they can obtain cash when they are wound up. The Country Party fully supports the Bill.

Mr. TRETHEWEY (Bendigo).-I support this amending Bill. Since the M'inister explained the purpose of the measure on 18th November of last year, the proposals have been studied by many permanent building societies, including those to which the honorable member for Melbourne referred. The permanent building societies in the Bendigo electorate have also examined the measure concerning which they made certain recommendations to me. I have conveyed these recommendations to the Minister for his consideration. The three societies to which I refer in my electorate are the Bendigo Permanent Building Society, the Sandhurst Permanent Building Society and the Bendigo and Eaglehawk Permanent Building Society, which -have been established for 105 years, '89 years and 69 years respectively. During this period the societies have subscribed considerably 'to the welfare of the people, not only in my electorate, but also in the metropolitan area. In fact, 25 per cent of the loans that have been granted by the societies is represented by investments in these areas. Even during 1970, the societies advanced $8 million to home' owners. For this reason and because of their

standing in the lending community, the representations made by these concerning proposed amendments to the Bill are justified.

The honorable member for Melbourne referred to the amount of $200,000 which is required as capital for a permanent building society. The Bendigo societies in general have a total capital of approximantly $3 million. Paragraph (d) of clause 2 which amends section 4E of the p~incipal Act, relates to liquid funds. Unfortunately, no provision is made for societies to invest in Commonwealth or semi-government loans. In view of the fact that these loans are yielding reasonable rates of interest, they should be included as liquid funds provided that the maturity date is not less than four years, which is probably the minimum maturing date of these investments. I ask the Minister of Housing to give consideration to the inclusion of Commonwealth or semi-government loans as investments for liquid funds of permanent building societies.

With regard to the withdrawal of funds, the Bendigo societies, which have approached me, consider that because of their structure the proposal that withdrawal funds should consist of deposits, plus the capital, would in their view be onerous and would result in a tying up of quite an amount of money that otherwise could be let out to peopJe who desire to purchase their own homes. I submit that because onehalf of the funds held by these societies is either in non-withdrawal capital or term deposits the Minister should be given power, upon the advice of the registrar, to make an order authorizing the calculation of the withdrawal funds as he sees fit. This would not weaken the structure of the legislation but would prove an advantage to the societies. I trust the Minister will consider the two matters which I have brought to his attention. With other speakers, I agree that the Bill will tidy up the legislation in relation to building


societies and provide stability of investment to the public in general. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. McLAREN (Bennettswood).I wish to express approval of the Bill. I congratulate the Minister of Housing on his comprehensive explanatary speech, and the honorable member for Melbourne and the honorable member for Rodney for their constructive comments on behalf of their respective parties. This review of the activities of permanent building societies as such is necessary from time to time because of the great growth that has taken place in the past five years. It should be realized that the funds now invested within Victoria have grown from $53· million in 1966 to $112 million in 1970. Whilst this growth does not equal that which has taken place in New South Wales and South Australia it does show the influence of the investing policy in Victoria, particularly in regard to housing.

This amending Bill provides increased control over permanent building societies which is essential; firstly, for the protection of those people who invest in such societies at call or for a longer term; secondly, for those who borrow from the societies either for housing or for other purposes; and thirdly, to assist the societies in their further development. In such larger groupings as permanent building societies one finds some first-class organizations and then, to some extent, they taper away.

When one considers the over-all lending policies within Victoria, one has to regard the permanent building societies as one of a group of four: Firstly, the State Savings Bank of Victoria, which is the institution of the people of Victoria; secondly, the private enterprise banks, as they are so called; thirdly, the co-operative housing societies, which are doing a magnificient job in this regard; and fourthly, the permanent building societies. It is necessary that institutions operating in this field should

be controlled to ensure that they are in fact permanent and that the assets are fully covered.

The honorable member for Melbourne fully covered the purpose of the measure, which, as he said, is largely a Committee Bill. I should like to comment on two matters; firstly, the minimum funds and the requirement that new societies should have a backing of at least $200,000 to provide a nucleus for long-term development; and secondly, the question of liquid funds and withdrawable funds. It is essential that the investing policy of the permanent building society should be controlled. All honorable members will agree that adequate liquid funds should be available to provide against a run on a society.

Banks are required to have a minimum liquidity which ensures that 65 per cent of their investments are held in Government, semi-Government or other prescribed investments. This is prescribed not only in the priva te en terpdse banks banking legislation but also for the State Savings Bank of Victoria. Some mandatory minimum must be applied as a protection for people or organizations which invest in those various ways. This also applies to the withdrawable funds because of the relationship of those funds to liquid investments.

The references of the honorable member for Bendigo to the variances that apply to Bendigo societies in rela tion to longer term and shorter term investments were appropriate. I direct the attention of the House to the New Zealand Government stock ratio requirements which provides that permanent building societies and others . should invest sums in semi-Government or local government securities. This would be a source of funds for municipalities and other Government institutions that require funds. Permanent building societies, co-opera tive societies and others that have available surplus funds should invest in these securities. This Bill is a necessary and important

Building Societies [23 MARCH; 1971.] (Amendment) Bill. 4241

amendment to the building societies legislation, and I wholeheartedly support it.


and committed. Clause 1 was verbally amended,

and, as amended, was adopted. Clause 2, providing, inter alia

The Principal Act is hereby amended as follows:-

(d) At the end of section 4E there shall be inserted the following section:-

4F. (1) A society shall not authorize the making of a loan unless at the date of the authorization of the loan (in this section called the "relevant date") the society-

(2) In this section-cc Approved" means approved in

writing by the Minister on the recommendation of the Registrar;

"Liquid funds" in relation to a society means the amount calculated by aggregating the amount of cash in the hands of the society at the relevant date, the amount of cash deposited to the credit of the society with a bank at the relevant date, the amount of any fixed deposit in any prescribed bank at the relevant date, the face value of authorized bills of exchange as defined in section 24 held by ;the society at the relevant date and the value at the pursuant to paragraph (b) of subrelevant date of any investments made section ( 1 ) of section 24 and deducting the amount of the loan that is to be authorized;

Ie Prescribed percentage" means ten per centum or such other percentage not being less than ten that is for the time being fixed by the Governor in Council.

Ie Withdrawable funds" in relation to a society means the aggregate of the amount at the relevant date of the withdrawable share capital of the society' that is paid up and the amount at the relevant date of the deposits with the society.

Mr. MEAGH·ER (Minister of Housing) .-1 move-

That, in sub-section (2) of proposed new section 4F, as contained in paragraph (d), after the words Ie relevant date" where fourth occurring the words" the face value of any Parliamentary stocks or public funds or Government securities of the Commonwealth of Australia or the State of Victoria which will mature within four years of the

relevant date the face value of any debentures stocks or securities of any public authority payment of the interest on ~hich is guaranteed by or under the authOrIty of the Parliament of Victoria which will mature within four years of the relevant date" be inserted.

The purpose of this amendment is to enable a society to count as part of its liquid funds Government stocks and investments in semi-Government and other Government-supported authorities. It meets some of the comments of the honorable member for Bennettswood, who suggested that permanent building societies should be encouraged to invest in Government securities which have a maturity date of not later than four years, thus giving a sufficient degree of liquidity.

The amendment was agreed to.

Mr. MEAGH·ER (Minister of Housing) .-1 move-

That the following expression be added to sub-section (2) of proposed new section 4F:-

cc Or in relation to a society in respect of which the Minister on the recommendation of the Registrar has made an order under sub-section (3) means the amount calculated in accordance with the provisions of the order.

(3) The Minister on the recommendation of the Registrar may by writing under his hand order that the withdrawable funds of the society named in the order to be calculated by aggregating the amount at the relevant date of the withdrawable share capital of the society that is paid up and the deposits with the society that are repayable within such period after the relevant date that is specified in the order and deducting therefrom if the order so provides such proportion of the share capital of the society that is not withdrawable as is speCified in the order".

The purp'ose of this amendm'ent will cover the request 'Of the honorable member for Bendigo that consideration- should be given to the problems confronting Bendigo societies which, because of their structures, have s'Om'e 50 per cent 'Of their funds in non-withdrawable share capital. Because of their success, to require these S'ocieties to comply with the original provisions of the principal


Act would place them at a heavy disadvantage-in fact, it would be i.mposing a penalty on 'success. The amendment provides that if a society can convince the regi'strar that it has such disability, he may make a recommendation ;to the Minister, who may then in writing vary the requ'irements in 'order to ensure that, while generally conforming with the princip'le 'Of the Act, the society is not placed at a particular disadvantage.

Mr. TRETHEWEY (Bendigo).-The am1en'dment will have a heartening effect on the permanent buitlding societies 'in my electorate. They will appreciate the consideration given by the Minister to the points raised during the debate.

The amendment was agreed to, as were consequential amendments, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were clauses 3 to 6.

Clause 7, providing for directors. Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-The

principal Act provides that a society cannot carryon with less than three directors. This clause amends section 22D so that, subject to the approval of the registrar, a society may carry on with less than three directors for a period of up to three months. This is a safeguard so that in the event of a fatality or some accident depriving the society of two or three directors it will not have to be wound up.

The clause was agreed to.

Clause 8, providing, inter aliaFor section 24 of the Principal Act there

shall be substituted the following section:-c 24. (1) A society may from time to

time, unless its rules otherwise direct, invest any portion of 'its funds not immedialtely required for its purposes-

(3) In this section cc authorized bill of exchange" means a bill of exchange which, if bought for value by the society, would give the society ·as a holder in due course a right of recourse against a .. bank within the meaning of the Banking ACit 1959 of the Commonwealth as amended from time to time for an amount equal to the face value of ,the bill.' .

Mr. MEAGH,ER (Minister of Housing) .-1 move-

That, in sub-section (3) of. proposed new. section 24, after the word cc exchange" the expression cc which is payable on demand or nOlt more than 200 days from the day on which it is acquired' by the society and", be inserted.

The purpose of the amendment is to discourage permanent building· societies from investing in the shortterm money market, which, in fact, is not short term. The amendment~ which places a limit of not more than 200 days on short-term securities, is desirable to prevent societies from inadvertently getting into trouble by being persuaded to invest in what is not truly short-term money.

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were the remaining clauses.

. The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, and the amendments were adopted.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-1 move-

That this Bill be now read a third time. Mr. BIRRELL (Geelong).-I trust

that following the passling of this Bill, at some time in the future building society investments may be considered to be trustee investments. The State Savings Bank of Victoria occupies a strong position in home building financing. It may be difficult to declare building society subscriptions as trustee investments, because financiaUy it may be deemed to be getting out of the frying pan and into the fire. However, 1 am informed-I have not checked-that this is one of the strengths of the New South Wales situation.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! 1 should be glad if the honorable member would point out to me the relevance of this.

Mr. BIRRELL.-What I have said covers the main point 1 wish to make. , The motion was agreed. to, and the Bill was read a third time.

The sitting was suspended at 6.18 p.m. until 7'.57 p.m .. '

Police [23 MARCH, 1971.] Force.' 4243

POLICE FORCE. REPORT BY COLONEL SIR ERIC

ST. JOHNSTON.

The debate (adjourned .from March 17) was resumed on the motion of Mr. Reid (Chief Secretary)-

That this House takes note, of the report on the Victoria Police Force following an inspection by Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston, C.B.E., Q.P.M., H.M. Chief Inspector of Constabulary for England ·and Wales, 1969-70. and on Mr. Wilkes's amendment-

That the following words be added to the motion:-"and in view of the contents resolves that the Government, having failed to provide and maintain an adequate Police Force, deserves the strongest censure of this House."

Mr. STOKES (Evelyn).-I believe that the report which has been furnished by Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston is supported by all honorable members, and that they agree that the Victoria Police Force needs to be considerably strengthened. It is clear that the Government chose an excellent, well q~alified man to prepare the comprehensive report which is now before the House.

In discussing the report, the Opposition has offered some criticisms of the Government, but it has not advanced a constructive suggestion on what they would have done regarding the way in which conditions of police officers may be improved.

The conditions in the Police Force are always the responsibility of the Government of the day. The Chief Secretary has praised the report and has intimated that its recommendations will be adopted, but financial considerations cause the date of their implementation to be very uncertain.

At present, the Victoria Police Force has approximately 4,700 personnel, and Sir Eric has recommended that its strength should be increased to 6,700. The cost .of doing so would be approximately $14 million. The report also recommends the provision of many new buildings, more equipment, improved transport, and the use of the latest scientific

equipment. The cost of imple·menting these recommendations would be about $30 million. From what I have said, honorable members will appreciate that an expenditure of some $44 m'illion is considered to be necessary to bring the Police Force to an acceptable up-to-date standard.

In his speech to the House last Wednesday, the Chief Secretary stated that, subject to the availability of finance and recruits, the recommendations contained in the report would be adopted in their entirety. In praising the report, the honorable gentleman suggested that it would be a blueprint for future planning. The Chief Secretary went on to say that it was a sheer impossibility to secure additional 'men at times of full employment. He also mentioned that the Government did not have the available finance with which to start implementing the report in the near future. The honorable gentleman set out what the Government would implement almost immediately. There are 25 recommendations which do not involve great expense. In other words additional capital need not be added to the cost of what is now being spent on the Police Force.

I t was stressed by Sir Eric St. Johnston that all the main proposals of the report hang together, and it would be useless to accept some and not others. If what he says is trueand I believe it is-it is useless to implement some and not others. This would indicate that for the time being nothing really effective will be done to improve the Police Force to the extent that is so necessary for the safety of the Victorian people. Sir Eric St. Johnston suggested that his proposals could be implemented within a period of five years and he stressed that they could certainly be implemented in not more than ten years. I hold simHar views to those put forward by the honorable member for Moonee Ponds, who said that the whole report should be adopted


forthwith. I suggest that the Governmen t should make a start and resolve that what is proposed will be accomplished not in ten years' time, but within five years.

If Victoria faced a period of war or of great emergency, oJ' am certain that within a period of twelve months it would be possible to raise 100,000 members in a fighting force which would be equipped to defend the security of our country. I believe that Victoria at present has a battle on its hands to maintain law and order, to overcome vandalism and to preserve the safety of the people who are threatened just as their properties are threatened. It is an internal war. The period of great unrest which is prevalent in the community exists in all Western countries. The Western countries of the world are faced with a dangerous situation at the present time, and Australia is no exception. This Parliament and the Government should implement remedial action right away.

Sir Eric St. Johnston suggested that the headquarters of the Police Force, which he described as being poorly organized, should be tackled first. In paragraph (c) of -clause 4 of his conclusions, Sir Eric stated-

There ,are a considerable number of very good officers in the ranks of senior constable and first constable who are well fitted now for further advancement. From these senior constables and first constables, ,I believe our new officers should be selected. When an attempt is made to organize the qualified men who may be available, it is necessary to secure an appropriate leader or superintendent to implement the many necessary changes and additions that have been suggested in the report. It is essen tial that the leader should be a man of outstanding ability. Quite likely, such a man is already available in Victoria or in Australia. He may now be a member of the armed forces who has had experience in con trolling men or he could be employed in industry or ,many other sections of the community which Mr. Stokes

would give him the background ,and equip him for the enormous task that must be accomplished. To secure a suitable leader, the Government should be prepared to advertise widely throughout the British Commonwealth and the United States of America and seek applications. This would reveal what men were offering for this important position.

If the Government is successful in securing a man of ·the calibre that is so necessary, it will have to pay a considerable salary to justify the person giving up what he might be doing and coming to this country for the length of time that ,may be required-obviously, it would be not less than five years. Whoever is selected for the position must have the necessary experience, youth and energy to enable hi'm to carry out his important work.

Mr. DouBE.-Perhaps one of the deposed Commonwealth Ministers might do the job.

Mr. STOKES.-If the honorable member for Albert Park is serious. his suggestion should be considered. My one criticism of Sir Eric's report is that he baulked at or refrained from suggesting the actual amounts of salary that should be paid to the various members of the force, from the highest in rank to the lowest. Probably, Sir Eric had this at his fingertips but he was afraid that it might embarrass the wage and salary-'fixing authorities. ·However, I feel that he could have given a lead in this direction because salaries are so important in helping to create contentment and in eradicating unrest. It will be first necessary to decide the salary to be paid to the head man. I believe it is worth $50,000 a year to Victoria to bring a man of this capability to this State but the Government might feel that it would be better to offer $30,000 to $40,000 a year to secure a person of the highest calibre for this position. After all, this would be much less than the salaries paid to

:many executives in industry today.


Victoria needs a man who can not only control the Police Force but can also foresee and overcome all the problems that will arise. Certainly, he should be paid -adequately. I should not be worried about comparing the salary that will be paid with the salaries be-ing paid to other men in the State. The selected person must be able to undertake the work that Victoria needs, and the Government must be prepared to pay for the best man that is available.

Once a suitable leader has been selected and attention has been devoted to headquarters and the selection of officers, I believe it would not be difficult, even in a time of full employment, to provide an extra 2,000 men and women to meet Victoria's needs as they exist today and as they are likely to be in five years' time. After all, organizations in private industry are rebuilding their existing staffs to a ,comparable degree, and ,if they can do it, the Government should be able to do it also. Action of this type is essential for the life and security of the country. The Police Force is recognized as a high calling and although actual ,figures were not suggested by Sir Eric, the report indicates that high rates of pay should be paid. It is a position of great responsibility, which must provide opportunities for recreation and holidays and a good standing in the community that would attract many people and which should rank no lower than any other career or profession in the State. It would not be impractical to secure an additional 2,000 men and women for the Police Force although I point out that it could mean employing more than 2,000. U there are misfits in the force, they should be removed. Frequently, after a policeman gains some experience, it becomes apparent that he is neither suitable nor capable of performing the work satisfactorily. In some cases he may not like the job and will want to leave. I t is a question of securing not simply 2,000

additional men but 2,000 able and efficient personnel, willing and capable of carrying on.

An important question that should be -asked is how all these things can be financed. I propose to suggest to the Chief Secretary, as the IM'inister responsible for the Police Force, how the necessary finance can be provided and I shall deal with four separate suggestions. I believe I have demonstrated in a practical manner that the personnel can be obtained. My proposals will indicate how the necessary finance ·can be provided. In my view, each of my four proposals could provide the necessary finance for improving the Police 'Force 'in the next ·five years. My first two proposals are orthodox and quite workable. The second two proposals are equally practical, although they are quite new. I mention four proposals to have put on record that it has been said in Parliament that there is no handicap to prevent the Government from doing what should be done and starting immediately.

,Mr. KIRKWOoD.-What about poker machines?

·Mr. STOKES.-Poker ma·chines do not appeal to me. The ,first proposal, which is not new, but very important, is that our State priorities should be reviewed. Victorians want law and order. Opportunities for good health, social welfare and protection for the people rank high in the needs of Australians and particularly Victorians.

Over a long period the Government has concentrated on education and has spent large sums in providing educational facilities. Whilst all honorable members agree on the necessity for education, in my view it can be overdone. At present the Government is spending 43 per cent of its total income on education annually, causing other necessities to be neglected-for example, the Victoria Police Force, hospitals and


mental health institutions. Education is out of balance. Whilst I realize that everyone must be educated to a certain . standard, good health and security are also necessary. People of past generations made great sacrifices to educate their children, and people of today should make similar efforts. The protection of young families and the provision of adequate mental health facilities should not be neglected.

The next important priorities should be determined. Parliament has the ultimate responsibility of trying to bring about conditions best suited for the Victorian people, whom we represent. In my earlier comments I omitted to refer to a most important and vital aspect of defence. I realize that that is a Federal matter. If we are to hold this country all these facilities and other essentials, as well as education, must be met. Somehow or other adequate money should be earmarked for the Victoria Police Force.

Mr. GINIFER.-You said you had four suggestions.

Mr. STOKES.-I have already given my first suggestion, which is that our priorities should be reviewed. I have described that suggestion as orthodox, and I think every honorable member will agree that it is.

My second suggestion is that the management of the State's finances should be more efficient, and that many avoidable and unnecessary expenses should be eliminated. An all-party finance committee should be appointed to review the funds regularly spent in Victoria. Money should not be spent wastefully. Government expenditure is now of the order of approximately $1,000 million annually. If any businessman engaged an accountant or a consultant to investigate his firm in an endeavour to tighten

expenditure or to lay down guidelines for improved financial management, frequently such a consultant would claim that 10 per cent of current expenditure was not essential for the business and could be saved.

I suggest that an all-party finance committee could study this aspect, and if one did so doubtless it would agree that much of the finance could be used to better advantage in other avenues, and particularly for the improvement of the Police Force. Instead of an all-party finance committee, the Committee of Public Accounts could examine the State's financial situation with a view to avoiding unnecessary expenditure. If only a 1 per cent saving could be achieved of our present State annual expenditure, which is approximately $1,000 million, it would represent a saving of $10 million a year or $50 million in five years, which would cover the cost suggested by the report.

My other two proposals are not so orthodox. If money cannot be obtained from income, it can be obtained by the disposal of assets. Fortunately Victoria has not a Socialist Government. The report of the Gas and Fuel Corporation for the financial year ended last June showed assets to the value of $140 million, and real estate at $1~ million in two sections, one worth $5 million and the other $9 million. However, the real estate assets would probably be worth about ten times the amount shown in the balance-sheet because they were bought years ago. Some of this great reserve of capital could be used. Many people have trust accounts and money available to invest in Australia. This is not overseas capital. If 25 per cent of the assets of the Gas and Fuel Corporation were sold they would provide sufficient money to meet the requirements of the Victoria Police Force. This would overcome many of our financial difficulties. This money could be raised by means of selling debentures or shares.


Mr. FORDHAM.-Has the corporation any chance of selling the gas?

Mr. STOKES.-As I understand the position, the corporation is not now manufacturing gas. Many of the areas which once were used for the generation of gas are now lying idle and they could well be put on the market. Their sale would benefit the people of Victoria.

The fourth suggestion is to call for subscriptions, a system that was frequently adopted in wartime. Those people who are to benefit most by having adequate protection should subscribe to the cost of building up the Police Force. Quite a number of organizations in Victoria, particularly those which want protection, would not baulk at contributing to ~ fund to bring the Police Force up to date.

Mr. WILTON.-How much can we put you down for?

Mr. STOKES.-If the honorable member for Broadmeadows wants me to prophesy, I suggest that every member of this Parliament would probably agree to contribute something to the fund. I believe business houses, banks, and trustee companies would regularly put money into such a fund for security and safety. It would pay them to do so. Honorable members are aware of the large work force that is now engaged in security. Instead of people giving money outright, debentures could be offered to make investments more attractive. A small rate of interest could be paid. Many business houses, insurance companies and trustee companies have enormous superannuation funds and they could raise the necessary $50 million in five years for the benefit of the Police Force. I know that the Chief Secretary wants to bring about these reforms as much as I do. I have assured honorable members that it is a practical proposition to adopt fully and pu~ into operation the magnificent report now before the House. I reject the amendment beCause there is no evidence that any

Government could have done' better. The Government has made possible the presentation of this report. Is it being censured for procuring a firstclass report? If the Government and the Opposition pull together as closely as possible, Parliament will be in a position to give good service to everyone in Victoria.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine).-I support the amendment ,moved so ably by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. Firstly, I congratulate the honorable member for Evelyn, who is the first Government supporter to make any constructive suggestions during the debate. The story of the maladministration of the Police Force goes back to when this Government was elected in 1955, and it is of significance that a member of the Liberal Party who has been content to be a back-bencher and a constructive one is the first member 'of that party to make some constructive suggestions about this problem. That is not an accident; honorable members are all aware that the honorable member for Evelyn is a practical and successful business man. They are equally aware that the Ministers could not run a hot dog stand successfully and are .incapable of making a practical suggestion. Therefore, any reasonable suggestion has to come from a practical member of the Liberal Party.

The object of the exercise proposed by the Government, for which the Chief Secretary became the vehicle, is simple. Originally, debate on this subject was put on the basis of a report by Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston on the Victoria Police Force. When the report was tabled in the House, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, without notice and not having read the statement that has been made by the Chief Secretary as a port but also a statement which contains 'an apology for the Government's past activity. The purpose of the statement that has been introduced by the Chief Secretary as a commentary on the report on the Victoria iPolice 'Force by Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston is a simple one. Firstly,

4248 [ASSEMBLY.] Force.

it whitewashes the Government; secondly, it placates public opinion; and thirdly, as the Premier has disclosed during the debate, it ,is an attempt by the Government to evade its responsibility in carrying out the recommendations in the report.

I refer firstly to some of the questions raised so ably by the honorable member for Evelyn. The honorable member referred to the organizational side of the Police Force, which has been referred to before, not only here but also in London, whence the Government sought an expert to investigate the Victoria Police Force. My first comparison is between the action taken by the British Government and that taken by the Victorian Government. I refer the House to the 1962 ,final report of the Royal Commission on the Police presented to the British Parliament in May, 1962. The scope of the report is dealt with at page 4, where it is stated-

Our appointment by Your Majesty was preceded by several unrelated incidents, each of which touched an important aspect of police activities and engendered misgivings about the state of the police. The effect was cumulative, and disquiet was aggravated by the inability of members of the House of Commons to raise questions concerning the police outside the metropolitan area.

Then a series of incidents in the Police Force is dealt with. These incidents began in 1956 and ended in November, 1959, when the House of Commons debated a motion censuring the Home Secretary. Between 1956 and 1959 there was continual criticism of the police in the House of Commons and through the British press. In 1960, four years after the criticism began, a Royal Commission was appointed to make a report on the police in Great Britain. The Victorian Government has been criticized for fifteen years for its maladministration of the Victoria Police Force, but it was not prepared to follow the example of the British Government and appoint a Royal Commission. Mr. Lovegrove

In his recent statement to the Parliament the Chief Secretary said-

The Opposition, in its policy speech, stated its intention, if placed in a position by the electors of Victoria to do so, to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into all aspects of the Police Force. It was the considered opinion of the Government that its proposal was a more effective and practical step to take, and that it should endeavour to secure the appointment of an experienced United Kingdom police officer of acknowledged status and competence to examine the administration and organization of the Police Force of Victoria, and report and make recommendations as to the means by which the efficiency of the force could be improved.

I direct attention to the fact that after four years of criticism of the Police Force in Great Britain the Government of the day appointed a Rloyal Commission and after fifteen years of criticism of this Government's administration of the Police Force in Victoria, the Government was not prepared to follow the example of the British Government as suggested by the Opposition, but was content to appoint an expert to come here and tell us a lot of things that we knew and which the Opposition had been advocatinK for fifteen years The big wonder today is not that the Victoria Police Force is as bad as some of its critics have alleged-I remind the House that the Opposition has not alleged that it is bad~but that it is as good and efficient as it is under the disgraceful maladministration of the Government during the past fifteen years.

Some time after the last series of questions was raised by a judge of the Supreme Court concerning certain allegations about the Police Force in regard to the receiving of stolen goods, the connections of certain police officers with certain members of the criminal underworld in Victoria, and the conduct of the police in certain inquiries, it was suggested to the Government in October, 1968, that it should follow the example of the Governments of Great Britain, Canada, and New


Zealand and appoint a Royal Commission into the Public Service, not with the idea of head hunting or of endeavouring in any way to interfere with the rights and privileges of the Public Service, but for the purpose of endeavouring to equate in the modern world the growing complexity of the Public Service with a growing responsibility of Parlia. mentary Government. That suggestion was put to the Government first on the 9th October, 1968, following a number of scandals that began in 1966, to which reference has been made by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. On 27th November, 1968, the proposal was repeated to the Government that an inquiry should be made into the whole of the Public Service in Victoria on the lines of the inquiry conducted by Lord Fulton in Great Britain, which resulted in the report made by Lord Fulton to the British Government through 1966 to 1968. Again on the 30th September, 1969, the proposal was taken up by a member of the Government, the honorable member for Ormond-now the Minister of Labour and Industry-who in his speech on the Address-in-Reply to the Govern'Or's Speech, as reported at page 478 of volume 295 of Hansard, dealt at length with and approved of the suggestion made some years previously by the Opposition that the Government should adopt the practice followed by the British Government and appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the administration of the Public Service in Victoria.

Of course, the answer to the remarks of the honorable member for Evelyn is that the basic responsibility for the failure of the Police Force in Victoria has nothing to do with the force. This is the responsibility of the Government. I refer the House to another matter which has been repeatedly brought before Parliament by the Opposition. The Chief Secretary's Department until quite recently-by quite recently I mean in the past twelve months or two years-has been responsible for

Session 1971.-154

the administration of not only the Police Department but also the Social Welfare Department, the State Insurance Offices, the Electoral Office, the Explosives Department, the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch, the Gas Examiner, the Government Shorthand Writer's office, the Government Statist, the Motor Registration Branch, the Prisons Division, the Public Library, the National Gallery, the National Museum, the Museum of Applied Science, the Registrar of Friendly Societies, the Weights and Measures Branch, the W'Orkers Compensation Board, the Exhibition trustees, the Free Library Service Board, the Victorian Licensing CQurt, the Melbourne Sailors Home, the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board, the PQlice Classification Board, the Police Disdpline Board, the 'Premiums Committee, the Street Traders Licensing Board, the Traffic Advisory Committee, the Trotting Control Board, the Dog Racing Control Board, the Zoological Board - and, -in latter years, the Totalizator Agency Board. It is obvious that the head of any department which has to deal with the multiplicity of .functions which are carried 'Out by those organizations could not ensure that the Police Force would be properly controlled; it is fantastic that the Government should have thought it could do so. I remind the ,House that it was only as a result of pressure by the Opposition and the force of public opinion that the control of social welfare was taken away from the Chief Secretary and made the responsibility of another Minister, and that it was only as a result of the same pressures that the functions of Chief Secretary and AttorneyGeneral were divided. It is 'Obvious tha t, by disorganizing the top administrative representation of its departments, the Government is basically to blame for anything that has happened in relation to the Police Force.

I have referred at some length to criticisms advanced over the past fifteen years concerning the shortage of police officers. I remind the House


that when this Government assumed office there was a massive influx of migrants and the Premier and his Ministers 'repeatedly boasted that, by their own efforts, they expected more than half of the total migrant intake to become residents of Victoria, but at no time during this inordinately large increase in population was the number of police officers increased to the level which was required.

I turn now to discuss the final report of the Royal Commission on the Police 1962, in Great Britain. Page 4 of that report discusses the reasons for the appointment of the Royal Commission, and it is ,quite clear that they were far less grave than those which led this Government to appoint Sir Eric St. Johnston.

To give honorable members an idea of the weakness of crime detection and law enforcement in Victoria I shall refer t'O - articles which hav~ appeared in several local newspapers. The 'first is an article which appeared in the Collvngwood and Fitzroy Courier on 3rd March of this year under the heading "Police worried by big truck thefts". It reads-

Collingwood and Fitzroy CIB branches are concerned over the increasing number of thefts of heavy vehicles in the area.

In the latest - and most audacious -theft, two fully-loaded vans were stolen from the storeroom of A. Brooks Transport Pty. Ltd., of George Street, Fitzroy.

Thieves broke in through a side window of the storeroom, forced locks on the front roller doors and drove the vans out.

Before leaving they loaded the vans with rugs, clothing and house fittings.

Police said the vans were left in the building with ignition keys in the locks.

The vans and contents were valued it between $3000 and $4000.

Several other heavy vehicles have been stolen and ransacked in the area.

The same newspaper on Wednesday, 10th March, under the heading, "Search for missing vans", stated-

Fitzroy police have appealed to the public to watch for two vans stolen from a Fitzroy warehouse over a week ago. Mr. Lovegrove

The Voans were stolen f.rom the premises of A. Brooks Transport Pty. Ltd., George Street.

One of the vans is a Cammer Commercial light van, registered number HOA-041, colored red with a white top.

The other is a three to four-ton International van, coloured red, with the word "Villawool" painted on each side in yellow.

Police think the two vans may be hidden in a garage or shed somewhere in Fitzroy.

About $1000 worth of goods stolen with the vans has been recovered. Police have charged a Carlton woman with receiving stolen goods.

Thieves broke into the office of K. G. Luke Pty. Ltd., Queen's Pde., Fitzroy, last week and stole cig,arettes and money valued at about $246.

They entered through an unlocked skylight and smashed a cigarette vending machine.

A Fitzroy woman was the victim of one of the most thorough "snowdroppers" in Fitzroy history last week.

The "snowdropper" completely stripped the woman's clothesline of washing while she was away during the day.

The missing garments, mainly underclothes, were valued at about $60.

Fitzroy police are searching for four youths who assaulted another youth at the Fitzroy Youth Centre.

Theo Papadimitriou, student, of Bennett Street, Fitzroy, told police he was playing billiards at the centre when four youths came in and hit him over the head with a billiard cue.

He said one of the youths then picked up a billiard ball and threw it through a window.

A man who went to a friend's home in Moor Street, Fitzroy, l,ast week, came faceto-face with thieves who had stolen some money from the building.

As the man entered the front gate, the thieves rushed out, brushed past him, and got away.

Watches and cash worth $70 and $50 in coins from a gas meter were stolen.

The same paper, in its edition of 17th March 'Of this year in an article headed "Daylight clothing theft -huge stock loss" stated-

Four daring thieves stole $45,000 worth of clothing in broad daylight from a Collingwood factory last Thursday.

The thieves broke into the factory of John Palermo Pty. Ltd., Johnston Street, at 5.40 p.m. and stole its entire stock of leather and suede jackets.


People who live nearby saw the theft taking place, but were unaware that anything was wrong.

Police said yesterday the residents believed the thieves to be normal delivery men in the course of their work.

Residents later told police they saw the four men drive "a large red van" up a lane beside the factory land load clothing into it.

The thieves stayed for over an hour before driving off with their haul.

It was later discovered that they had forced their way through doors dividing the Palermo building and an adjoining warehouse, evading burglar alarms as they entered.

Collingwood cm believes there coul~ b.e a connexion between the robbery and SImIlar recent factory breakings in which large vans and trucks have been used to cart away stolen goods.

Crimes such as those which I have mentioned are occurring constantly at a time when the Government is using police to track down smutty books or to collect debts for big city firms which issue credit to people at usurious rates without bothering to inquire whether the people can make the repayments involved. When they cannot do so, the police are used as debt collectors. Many firms extend credit too easily, and any honorable member who has heard advertisements on television-particularly those of the motor industry-must agree. It is time that the Government stood up to that industry.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-I suggest to the honorable member that his remarks are not relevant.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I agree, Mr. Speaker, and I am anxious that they should be.

The Chief Secretary has stated that it is intended to eHminate wasteful activities by police officers and to introduce a situation in which members of the Police Force will no longer be debt collectors. I appr-ove of the idea, but I remind the House that, it has taken fifteen years for the Government to decide upon this step and for it to admit that a majority of police officers have been engaged on debt collecting duties for used

car firms which, because of theIr conduct On televiSion, would be put out of business by any Government which had the slightest degree of business morality.

To furnish the house with another illustration of crimes carried out every day, I refer to an article in the Carlton News of 17th March of this year. It is headed, "Cheeky Carlton Robbery". It mentions that a person was sitting on the back terrace outside her kitchen door knitting a garment for a baby which she was expecting, when two men and a woman pulled up in a car. ,One of the men entered the house and took some property away. The number on the car was taken, and the Carlton police were called. The next night the police called to the house to infor·m the woman that they had recovered her purse and keys but had not yet caught the person responsible. The article concludes-

All in all I didn't lose much but it is frightening to think that you are not safe in a house even when you are there. Our thanks to the Carlton cops for their speedy action.

The significance of this incident is that it highlights what the Opposition has been repeatedly saying to the Government about the use of motor cars in the commission of offences. A car can be used for the commission of the offences of rape, murder, robbery, arson, and so on, and the offender is prosecuted, but he is allowed to keep his driving licence; the position is similar to that which has been described by the deputy Leader of the Opposition in relation to persons with long criminal records being permitted to keep firearms.

Mr. WILKES.-They can still buy shot-'guns.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Yes, and .22 rifles.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order ! The honorable member is on a subject not related to the report on the Police Force.

4252 Police [ASSEMBLY. ] Force.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-You are restricting me in the debate, Mr. Speaker, and you did not restrict other h'Onorable members.

The SPEAKER.-Order ! The honorable member for Sunshine knows that this debate is on the report on the Police Force and not on other legislation.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-On a point of 'Order, I submit that the debate is not restricted to the St. Johnston report. It is also on the amendment moved by the Opposition which charges the Government with maladministration of the Police Force over the past fifteen years.

The S'PEAKER.-Order! There is no point of order. Legislation relating to ,fir-ear,ms and other subjects is not related to the administration of the Police Force. This is a debate on the Police Force and its administration.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine).-I join issue with you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. FLoYD.-Carry on.

The SPEAKER.-Order ! The honorable member for Willia'mstown will cease interjecting.

Mr. LOIVEGROVE.-With the greatest respect, Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to correct the statement you made. I am referring to police administration because the Chief Commissioner of Police has the authority to cancel a licence to drive a ,motor car. Although this authority resides in the Chief Commissioner, it is exercised only under certain circumstances and perhaps after a certain number of offences have occurred. The administration of the Police Force by the Government is rotten and if the Government had any sense it would ensure that those people who travel around in Melbourne in motor cars, break into houses and terrorize innocent women, had their driving licences cancelled as soon as they were convicted. However, these people are permitted to retain their cars and their licences and when they get out

of a charge, which they appear to do with consummate ease, they use the same cars and the same licences to c'Ommit similar crimes. The Government will do nothing about that.

Mr. WILKES.-They use the same shot-guns also.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-That 'is so. The Government called for this report because it wanted to put the blame 'On the Police ,Force and whitewash itself. I ask honorable members to compare the statement made by the Chief Secretary with the contents of the St. Johnston report. In regard to extraneous duties of police and the employment of typists, the Chief Secretary said-

In recent years over 160 typists have been appointed to the city and country districts to relieve police of typing and clerical duties.

One would think one was looking at "Homicide", or "Division 4" on television. The Chief Secretary makes this statement about typists at a time when many police stations are being closed. Where are the typists appointed?

In regard to licence testers the Chief Secretary said-

Action has been taken to substitute civilian personnel for police on licence testing duties. Currently, 46 civilian licence testers have been appointed.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition has told the House that the Government cannot obtain sufficient licence testers because it will not pay them adequate wages.

The Chief Secretary als'O said that the Government is doing something about the service of processes by having the Justices Act amended. I shall express my view about the c'Ommereial morality 'Of the people who are taking up the time of the police by getting them t'O serve sum'monses, t'O collect debts, to issue garnishee orders and 'Other paraphernalia of debt collection and to undertake the repossessions that go hand in hand wHh the type 'Of salesmanship that distinguishes the motor vehicle industry in Victoria today, when that measure is before the House.


Mr. REID.-You might put Bourke's in that category, too.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-The Chief Secretary said something about Bourke's, but I point out that Bourke's is a landmark in the commercial history of Victoria. It is the only decent and moral thing that has happened since the Government was elected. Mr. Ken. Myer has my sympathy; he was given the kiss of death by the Herald on Sunday night. In regard to traffic infringement notices the Chief Secretary said that the introduction of onthe-spot fines in 1965 has released many members of the Police Force from attendance at court for long periods and it has been found that the over-whelming majority of people who receive traffic infringement notices prefer to pay the relevant fine than to go to court and this has resulted in a substantial saving of police time. I wonder why they prefer to pay the relevant -fine? Everybody knows it is of no use going to the court because no one will believe the evidence given by the defendant. The Government conducts sporadic traffic blitzes.

Mr. I. W. SMITH.-Is the honorable member making an attack on the courts?

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-A few weeks ago the Government introduced a Bill into this House to over-ride the decisions of a court.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! I invite the honorable member not to pick up extraneous interjections and reply to them.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I was misled by the Minister for Social Welfare. The Government should take action to improve the relationship between the public and the police. The first thing the Government should try to do is to improve the relationship between the police and that section of the motoring public who are reasonably safe, decent and respectable but who are pulled up by policemen on a Sunday for exceeding the speed limit by one or two miles an

hour. In most cases these motorists are apprehended so that the polic-eman can make up his tally .for the day. The average person apprehended in a traffic blitz is not the bad, dangerous or drunken driver. So pitiful is the action of the Governm-ent in dealing with drunken driving that it had to introduce further legislation recently.

Mr. RAFFERTY.-The honorable member cannot talk about that.

The SPEAKER.-Order ! The honorable member should speak on the report and should ignore interjections.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-The action of the Government that has most damaged the i'mage of the police with the respectable motorist in Victoria has been the attitude that the Government has forced a section of the Police Force to take towards motorists. I shall describe what happens. A motorist can drive down the Ballarat Road reasonably safely on a week day at off-peak periods at 40 miles an hour and no policeman will take action against him, but if the Government decides to hold a traffic blitz on a week-end and the same motorist drives along the Ballarat Road at 36 miles an hour he is booked. This is bringing the Government and the law into contempt and penalizing thousands of r,espectable citizens whose only crime is that they drove a motor car at one or two miles an hour over the speed limit during a traffic blitz. Whilst these people are being penalized the Government is giving an open hand to every criminal in the community to retain his -car and his driving licence. I do not want to harass the Government; I want to help it if I can but that is difficult.

I am glad that the Minister of Labour and Industry is now in the Chamber because prior to his entrance I paid him a compliment which I shall now repeat in his presence. I pointed out that after I twice suggested to the Government in 1968 in Parliament that it should

'4254 Police [ASSEMBLY.] Force.

'appoint a Royal Commission into the Public Service with a view to improvingefficiency, as happened in Great Britain, the M'inister of Labour and Industry adopted 'my suggestion and put it forward as his own.

Mr. RAFFERTy.-It was a good sugg,estion.

,Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I agree. However, the Government would not appoint a Royal Commission t'O inquire into the Police Force. It appointed Sir Eric St. Johnston and gave him terms 'Of reference which could not include and deliberat'ely excluded any examination of the administration of the departments controlling the Police Force. Col'Onel Sir Eric St. Johnston did a good job, but I join with the Deputy Leader of the Opposition in his criticism of the Gov,ernment. I do not think the Government will do anything about the Police Force. 'When the current case before the court is concluded, the Government will go back to sleep.

Mr. WILKEs.-Another case will start then.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Yes, Dr. Wainer aJr.eady has another case ready f,or the Government. It is like a serial. The next case probably will not concern allegations about abortion but may relate to where the colossal tonnage of stolen goodsover $1 million worth a monthfinishes up. Who gets rid of it? Someone has to buy it.

Mr. RAFFERTY.-Bourke's!

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Mr. Speaker, unless you are prepared to throw out the honorable gentleman who interjected, I propose to answer the interjection. The honorable gentleman has introduced the name of Bourke's into a discussion relating to 'stolen property, and that is serious. The c'Ommercial interests repres'ented by the Government have been badly hurt by the president of the Australian Council of Trade Unions and I commend him for giving them a lesson in commercial morality.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie) -Order! The honorable member for Sunshine should speak to the motion before the Chair.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I invite the Government to get a senior Minister to answer the case P\lt forward by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. The only Government supporter to really add anything to the debate was the honorable member for Evelyn who put forward some good points because he is a successful businessman and that is in clear contradistinction to other members of the Government party, and particularly the Ministers, who lack business ability. I invite a senior Minister to debate the suggestions made by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and the honorable member for Evelyn, who is a member of the Liberal Party.

Mr. CRELLIN (Sandringham).-I listened with interest to and was often entertained by some of the comments of honorable members. It goes without saying that the House compliments Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston on the content, style, and form of the report which he presented following his investigation into the Victoria Police Force. All honorable members will agree that the method, extent and results of his inquiry will be of more value than anything which could have been learned from a Royal Commission. It is better to have an expert investigator to advise what ought to be done than to conduct a witch-hunt from which only members of the legal profession benefit.

I do not believe that the honorable member for Sunshine was sincere when he suggested that Sir Eric whitewashed the Government because, in paragraph 10 on page 190, Sir Eric says-

The police must always remain the servants of the public and answerable to the ordinary laws of the country, but they cannot play their part in helping to provide the country with a good life unless they are efficient and they cannot be efficient unless adequate money is provided by the Government.


That certainly cannot come under the heading of "whitewash".

I compliment the Deputy Leader of the Opposition on his contribution to the debate. Although I do not necessarily agree with everything he said, I know that he is sincere in his attitude towards the problems of the State. I also listened with interest to the honorable member for Midlands because of his previous service with the Police Force.

Unless the public is on side, it will not be possible to do the things which are necessary concerning the Police Force. The time is now right for the Government to implement the report. The public is aware of the need and it understands the case for reorganization of the force. The simple language in which the report has been written enables any person in the community to understand the situation.

Mr. CURNow.-Where is the Government to get 2,000 more men?

Mr. CRELLIN.-The Government will get them. The time is also right for the Police Force to be given the priority that it demands in the overall community services. All honorable members know the State's financial situation and the need for additional finance. However, there is also a need for new priorities and I believe the Police Force is now uppermost in the minds of a number of people who are concerned with priorities.

A need exists for the public to support the police instead of constantly sniping at them, and persons such as Dr. Wainer attempting to conduct witch-hunts. All citizens have a responsibility to bolster the morale of the Police Force because if morale is bolstered naturally the effiCiency must improve. One matter in the report which has not been referred to is a s'ta tement of prinCiple by Sir Eric St. Johnston at page 11 under the heading, "The mutual responsibilities towards each

other of the police and the eommunity". In paragraph 19, Sir Eric says that in return each member of the police service has the right to expect from the community "the support of the courts, and judicial procedures that do not hinder the course of justice".

Mr. WHITING.-Do you believe that they are not getting that at the moment?

Mr. CRELLIN .-1 do not suggest that with regard to all courts, but the police are not getting the support that they need. Inflation is affecting most sections of the community and some of the magistrates do not seem to be aware of this.

Mr. WILToN.-Are you attacking the judiciary?

Mr. CRELLIN.-I am not necessarily attacking them but I suggest that they should update their thinking on penalties. I shall give some examples of this. Parliament makes the laws, so we do our part.

Mr. WILToN.-That is only your opinion.

Mr. CRELLIN.-It may be.

The S·PEAKER (the Ho-n. Vernon Christie).-I invite the honorable member to ignore interjections.

Mr. CRELLIN.-On 11th January, 1971, in the Dromana court a young man was convicted on ,five charges relating to the use of a motor car. He was gaoled for seven days on a charge of having driven whilst disqualified. He was also fined $30 on a charge of careless driving, $30 'On a charge of having driven with more than .05 of alcohol in his blood, $20 for failure to stop after an accident and $15 for having driven at more than 35 miles an h'Our. I think honorable members will agree that if a person were charged with offences of this type, he would be really concerned about his future as a driver.


Let me now examine the penalties under the Motor Car Act. For driving whilst disqualified, for a first offence the maximum penalty is not more than three months 'and for a second offence not less than one month nor more than six months. In this case the penalty was seven days. For careless driving, the maximum fine is $100 for a first offence and $250 for a second offence. In this case, the penalty was $30. For driving with more than .05 alcohol in the blood the maximum penalty for a first offence is a fine of not more than $100 and for a second offence a fine of not more than $200 or gaol for not more than one month, plus a licence cancellation for a first offence of not less than three months. The penalty in this case was a fine of $30 and the licence was cancelled for six months.

Mr. GINIFER.-What has this to do with the shortage of police?

Mr. CRELLIN.-I shall explain that in a moment. For failing to stop after an accident, the maximum penalty where no one is injured is, for a first offence, not more than $40 or three months' gaol and for a second 'Offence not less than $50 or more than $100 or not less than fourteen days' gaol or more than twelve 'months. Tn this case, the penalty was $20. For exceeding 35 miles an hour, the maximum penalty is $100 but the penalty in this case was '$15. The total penalties were seven days gaol and $95 -in fines.

Mr. WILTON.-You are two years too late.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Ve·mon Christie).-The interjections from the front bench of the Opposition are incessant and they should cease.

Mr. CRELLIN.-There is no need for me to harp on that because the situation can be repeated in a number of courts throughout the State.

Mr. WHITING.-Do you believe that the courts should have any discretion?

Mr. CRELLIN.-Sir Eric St. Johnston also referred to judicial procedures which should not hinder the course of justice. Many stipendiary magistrates will not use justices 'Of the peace to set up a second court. This results in policemen, witnesses and .others standing around f.or much longer than is necessary. If the second court were established, the police officers could be used in their proper role.

I refer now to the suggestion in the report concerning the closing of police stations. Of the 33 mentioned, two are in the Sandringham electorate, namely, Black Rock and Hampton. In addition, reference is made to Mentone, Carrum and Elwood stations, which makes a total of five stations in bayside suburbs. It is important that when somebody tries to telephone a policeman or calls in person at a police station a policeman should be present to t~ke the call.

I can understand Sir Eric's suggestion that the 33 stations mentioned should be closed and that the remaining police stations should operate on a 24-hour basis, but another aspect which should be considered is the value of police presence anywhere. During the summer season, the bayside beaches, which are extremely popular, are visited by thousands of people. It is important that police should be present -in these areas, and this facet should be considered.

Many references have been made to the manpower situation and it must be agreed that it cannot be solved overnight because an additional 2,000 men cannot be created in that time. In the meantime, I suggest that better use can be made of the existing members of the force and this comes within the province of the Police Department itself.


There are some ways in which we can perhaps help the existing members. At page 116, in paragraph 82, Sir Eric says-

I am sorry that the Dog Section has been disbanded and that confidence in the use of dogs by the Victoria Police has been lost, for there is no doubt that a well organized section of properly trained dogs and handlers can be and has proved to be a valuable asset to any Police Force. In Great Britain there are now over 1,000 police dogs and handlers :and every force has a Dog Section.

Sir Eric deals with this point and concludes by saying that this section should be restarted. I commend the idea and I hope that the Police Force takes notice of Sir Eric's comments and follows his recommendations. To my mind, this is the best way of increasing the effectiveness of one or two policemen, particularly at night.

Mr. GINIFER.-The recommendation related to tracker dogs.

Mr. CRELLIN.-The report also refers to trained dogs that are used for patrol work in high risk areas where housebreakings are liable to take place and in parks where assaults are Hable to occur.

Mr. GINIFER.-You have troubles in Sandringham.

Mr. CRELLIN.-The troubles are not confined to any specific area, and patrol dogs could be used in quite a number of areas.

The Government has been criticized for having done certain things, but the Opposition cannot ·escape unsca thed. The Opposition cannot have it both ways. The House has heard one half of the Labor Party saying one thing but the other half has been remarkably silent. We have heard quite a number of worthy comments from some members of the Opposition whilst others have been remarkably quiet. On the one hand, the Labor Party cannot ask for community support of the police and then have the chairman of the Vietnam Moratorium Committee, Dr. Cairns, calling f.or an end to authority.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vemon Christie ).-Order! The honorable member should speak to the motion before the Chair.

Mr. CRELLIN.-I suggest that this matter comes within the ambit of police administration. The Herald newspaper of 15th February contained an advertise·ment warning people to be prepared for a massive public demonstration.

The SPEAKER.-Order! I remind honorable members that there is a motion and an amendment before the Chair which deals with the administration of the Police Force. I invite honorable members to keep the debate to the main issues before the House.

Mr. ORELLIN.-Thank you, Mr. Speaker; I shall heed your comment. I refer again to page 11 of the report where the investigator, Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston, states that each member of the Police Force has the right to expect full support from the community. I suggest that this matter comes under this heading.

The report presented by Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston is the work of a man who is recognized throughout the world for his knowledge of police matters and no criticism can be directed towards his work. This Parliament has had the benefit of the knowledge of a man well versed in police ·matters; he is the obvious "horse for the course" . I sincerely trust that the Government will take notice of what he has said and act upon it in the next few years.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-1 shall speak mainly about promotion in the Police Force. Although I agree with the honorable member for Sandringham that the form of the report is' excellent, I violen tly disagree with the report of Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston on promotion. Of course, Sir Eric is a lawyer and has drawn this report as a lawyer would. It is an extremely interesting document, but I do not find it exciting because most of its contents are old-hat; 80 per cent of the

4258 . Police [ASSEMBLY.] Force .

'material in the report has been placed before the House on many occasions over the past fifteen or sixteen years. Recently, the Chief Commissioner of the Queensland Police Force stated that 80 per cent of the recommendations in this report have already been carried out in that State.

I tried to discover how the writer of the report entered the police force. I understand that he was 29 years of age and entered the force in about 1938. I was unable tQl discover 'whether he entered at graduate level, 'although I believe he must have done so because some of the police forces 'in England-I understand that this is still the position-import graduates into the force and appoint them at officer level. Sir .Eric levelled some criticism at the ages at which average men in the Victoria Police Force reach the ranks of sergeant, inspector and superintendent-46, 50 and 57 respectively.

I look upon the report merely as a public relations exercise in an endeavour to restore to the public's mind the image of law and order which the ·Police !Force lost under this Government. A few years ago, a Royal Com-mission was held into starting-price bookmaking. Honorable members will recall evidence that a number of members of the Police Force were accepting bribes. I consider that the Premier acted correctly when he established the Totalizator Agency Board with the result that starting-price bookmakers no longer carry on betting transactions. Apart from the short period when the

'late Mr. Porter was Chief Commis. sioner of Police, the Government has not spent sufficient money on the Police Force, with the result that its strength and efficiency has deteriorated. At present allegations of dishonesty and inefficiency at Russel Street have been made, and Sir Eric St. Johnston commented upon this. In view of the fact that charges of . gross dishonesty are at present before the court, I am prevented by the sub judice rule from commenting on that aspect. Mr. Turnbull

A further matter -mentioned in the St. Johnston report is the lack of 'adequate pay for members of the force. I suppose this subject also is sub judice because a claim for increased wages is being heard by the Police Service Board. The Chief Secretary in his statement to. the House did not mention the instructions the Government had given to counsel appearing for the Government of Victoria, which is how counsel opposing the claim announces his appearance. I should have liked to hear from a Minister what the Government is doing about the claim for increased salaries. Perhaps the Government is making some concessions or is it opposing the claim?

'. Generally speaking, members of the Opposition regard the unifor-med policeman as a person who is dedicated to the cause of law and order. The Government is incapable of rescuing the force and restoring it to an adequate Police Force. Mr. Whitlam, the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Representatives stated-

It is humbug and hypocrisy for any Commonwealth Government to preach law and order without at the same time enabling State Governments to provide proper incentives and opportunities for those to whom enforcement of the law is entrusted. It is humbug to talk of deteriorating crime without making proper provision for its detection.

The only hope the Government has of providing Victoria with an adequate and efficient Police IForce is to heed those words, that it must receive some assistance from the Commonwealth Government.

The only Government that did anything worth while to improve police pay was a Labor Government which gave the Victoria Police Force its own tribunal-the Police Classification Board. In the bad old days, when the squatters and the lawyers ruled Victoria, a policeman could be dismissed ·at will. Many a policeman received his final notice when he was on police duties. The Labor Government ended that practice and also that of men being transferred to "Siberia" for reasons unstated.

Police [23 MARCH, 1971.] Force. 4259·

The worthy conditions which were introduced by the Labor Government have been whittled down by this Government. Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston said that there should be some consolidation of police pay. The powers of the P.olice Service Board are set out in the Police Regulation Act in such a way that the board has to grant various allowances. It is not easy for anyone to discover the total emolument paid to a policeman. For example, a member of the Criminal Investigation Branch receives his salary and is entitled to what is called a duty allowance. The history of that allowance is that a me-mber of the Criminal Investigation Branch used to pay persons who gave him information. Today, this allowance is looked upon as an additional payment for skill. He also receives a com·muted allowance for overtime, a commuted allowance for week-end duty, an allowance for working in plain clothes and other allowances which are stated in section 69 of the Police Regulation Act. The Government should consult the Police Association, the Chief Commissioner of Police and perhaps the Police Service Board with a view to consolidating these allowances and amending the Act. All of the 'allowances have a history and appeared in the 1946 Act; it is time the legislation was reviewed.

The Labor Party brought to the Police Force a man who was probably the most efficient Chief Commissioner of Police, the late Major-General Porter. The ·main theme of his administration was to create a good relationship between the public and the police.

Mr. MACLELLAN.-Value and friendly service!

Mr. TURNBULL.-That is so. A Country Party Government had troubles with the Police Force and brought out Alex. Duncan from Great Britain. If the Government had carried on the traditions of former Chief Commissioners of Police it would have earned greater respect for its administration of the Police Force. There is always a danger in appointing a Chief Commissioner

of Police who has risen through \the ranks with men who are· senior officers of the force. Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston has been extremely critical of the efficiency of present superintendents in the force.

I now advert to the matter of promotion. When a man seeks to enter the Police Force he is required to pass an examination. He then must pass what is called a retention examination. If he desires to reach the rank of first constable, he must pass the sub-officers' theoretical examination. If he passes that examination, after five years' service he may reach the rank of first constable; but if he does not pass the examination he may reach the rank of first constable after ten years' service. If he wishes to become a sergeant he must pass a sergeant's practical examination. Should he desire to reach the rank of inspector, he is required to pass the officers' educational examination and also pass the officers' practical examination. If he proceeds to the rank of officer he must undergo a course of study at the officers' college in Toorak. If he should be a member of the Criminal Investigation Branch, he must pass a detective training 'course.

With all that experience, it is difficult to make a choice among men who pass the examinations to the rank of sergeant or officer. It would appear that a man reaches the rank of sergeant after approximately eighteen years' service, and the rank of inspector after 27 years' service. Therefore, these men are extremely experienced. The regulations dealing with promotions place emphasis on the word "efficiency". Seniority, which .is condemned by Colonel Sir Eric st. Johnston, is not to' be considered until there is equality of efficiency. That is how the Chief Commissioner promotes his men and that is the method by which the Government promotes officers-firstly, on efficiency, and then on seniority.


The Police Force is a career service and if young men are to be attracted to the force :they must be given the opportunity to pass examinations and obtain promotion. Today one of the difficulties is that, although extremely competent men are in the force, it is overcrowded with first constables, many of whom have not gone on with their examinations yet give efficient service. I can understand the writer of the report saying that perhaps, a man is too old at 46 years to be promoted to the rank of sergeant, and that a man of 50 years ,may be too old for the rank of inspector, or that at 57 years he :is too old to become a superintendent.

When the late Alex. Duncan was appointed Chief Commissioner he was dismayed to find that men were being promoted to the rank of superintendent for only a month, or six months, before retirement. I suppose it was human to ensure that these senior and devoted officers should receive the maximum pension available to them, based on the amount of their salary at the :time they retired. The Chief Commissioner, of course, condemns this " merry-go-round" of transfers of superintendents and members of the force on the grounds of seniority. These are delicate and difficult matters because there are occasions when a member of the force, say, in the rank of sergeant, may be anxious to transfer to the city or a large town to secure better education for his children.

I warn the Government against carrying out the provisions of Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston's report in regard to promotion. If younger men are required, the examinations should be made more difficult. It has been suggested that a policeman sitting for an examination in law is examined by a member of the force. At one time he would have been examined by a member of the legal profession. Matters of this type should be examined by the administration to ensure that the most efficient and qualified members Mr. Turnbull

are promoted. It is of no use Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston suggesting that these men are too old and that the youngest sergeant should be chosen for promotion to inspector or that the most junior senior constable should be promoted to the rank of sergeant.

It has been suggested :that $40 milli'On should be spent on the Police Force, but that sum of money is simply not available. Any m'Oney should be spent 'On securing m'ore members for the force. I advert now to the salaries paid to policemen. The critical time in the life of a policeman is when he is, say, 30 years of age and supporting a family. That is the time when temptation is a danger and a policeman must be remunerated at a level which will place him beyond temptation. I can recall a case when the right of a policeman's wife to go out to work was criticized. In many walks of life today can a family exist without the take-home pay of the wife? Today, if any member of the Police Force accepts an outside job he can be charged with a breach of discipline. Many jobs are suitable and available to a policeman in his off duty hours-he could drive a :taxi, or even act as a night security officer . It is nothing new for people to have two jobs and I see nO' real objection to it. I ask the Chief Secretary to give this matter consideration.

The work of the Police Force is out in the field and the men who bear the brunt of this work are the senior constables and sergeants. If ranks are to' be increased, :the increase should be at the level of sergeant and senior constable. I do n'Ot agree with the suggestion that these two positions should merge. I would be inclined to reduce more ranks near the top of the scaleperhaps chief inspectors. Sergeants and senior constables are the ribs of a modern police force.

Mr. REID.-The honorable member believes in Kipling's words?


Mr. TURNBULL.-I have not read Kipling in regard to policemen. I would have thought that the policeman was a quasi military officer. I can recall when a member of the Police Force addressed his senior constable as " Sir". That was in the days when the rank of senior constable was not reached until after 23 years' service. Today, a junior constable, with a cigarette in his mouth, frequently addresses the sergeant as "Sarge".

I suggest that the sergeant and senior constable be given as much area of responsibility as is humanly possible. I am not a great believer in specialized sections in the Police Force. Who is the first man to reach the scene of a crime? It is the uniformed constable. He is next after the burglar. It depends upon the efficiency of that dedicated uniformed constable whether, in the circumstances, a proper case will be prepared. Even at suburban police stations there is too much whittling down of the responsibility of the sergeant. The average sergeant of police is an excellent prosecutor.

Mr. REID.-He is almost a serjeant-at-Iaw.

Mr. TURNBULL.-That is so. In the main, he is an excellent prosecutor. I have seen a junior ,man who has been the informant against a burglar take over the prosecution from the sergeant. My desire is to give the sergeant complete charge of his duties at every police station, because sergeants are the field officers. At Russell Street there is a tendency for officers to become white collar workers between the hours of 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. I ask the Chief Secretary to examine the position of the sergeant. I would be most hurt if there were to be a change in his name. The expression, "go down and see the sergeant" is almost a household term. The new name-I think .it is sector officer-does nat have the same nice ring about it as that of sergeant. In answer to a question asked by me on notice recently, the

Chief Secretary informed me that one-half of the superintendents .in the force today were promoted through the Criminal Investigation Branch. However, I am not completely satisfied with this information. Possibly, the examinations for promotion to superintendent could be made more exacting so that more candidates would fall by the wayside and men would reach the upper ranks at a younger age than in the past.

I have always been interested in the appointment of Royal Commissions under the British :Parliamentary system when there is a need to examine matters of public importance. Regularly over the years, the British Parliament has appointed Royal Commissions to examine the Police Force, education and law reform. 'Much valuable material has been embodied in the reports of Royal Commissions. I examined one such report relating to the police to ascertain whether Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnson had tendered evidence to the Royal Commission, but I ·could not find his name in the list of witnesses, although he ·could have given evidence through his association.

In his report on the Victoria Police Force, Sir Eric recommended that air-conditioning should be provided at Ouyen police station. How .many homes in Victoria are equipped with air-conditioning? The hardworking farmers in the Ouyen district 'may catch a chill if they entered the police station when the outside temperature was 110 degrees and inside ,it was only 70 degrees. II was delighted to hear the honorable member for Mildura in his contribution to the debate refer to the lock-up at iMildura. On my last visit to Mildura, the lock-up reminded me of the cages for prisoners at Saigon, which have been featured in photographs. The majority of persons who are locked up at Mildura are Aborigilles. Of course, we 'are not renowned for providing good conditions for Aborigines, although the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs is doing his utmost to improve their unhappy lot.


During the honorable gentleman's next visit to Mildura, I suggest that he should call and inspect the local lock-up.

:Inspector Crowley dealt with a number of matters which he felt were important. His first priority was the urgent need to increase the strength of the Police Force by 200 members.

Mr. WILKEs.-Mr. Deputy Speaker, I direct attention to the state of the House.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Sir Edgar Tanner).-A quorum is present.

'Mr. TURNBULL.-In ascertaining the adequacy of the Police Force from a numerical point of view, it has been customary to refer to the ratio of police to the population. In his report, Sir Eric St. Johnston stated that the ratio should be one policeman for each 500 people. At present the ratio in Victoria is one policeman for each 700 persons, and in England today it is approximately one for every 600. Recently, I read that 1,400 public servants are utilized in the Police Force. Many of these no doubt are employed in the Motor Registration Branch. In calculating the strength of the force on a population ratio basis, II do not know to what extent allowance is made for the fact that public servants are performing certain duties in the force.

Sir Eric St. Johnston suggested that tradesmen should be paid an allowance over and above that enjoyed by members of the Police Force. Surely, a properly trained policeman performing police work has a far greater responsibility in the community than a tradesman.

. Mr. REID.-Are you criticizing what the Police Service Board has done?

Mr. TURNBULL.-I am speaking of Sir Eric St. Johnston's report; I could not criticize the board without examining the appropriate awards.

The Government has in no way endeavoured to improve the Police Force; it has simply tried to get itself off the hook. The crime rate has been increasing for some time and irregularities which should have been known by people in high places have been occurring. I support the amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-1 have listened with some fascination to the debate. I remind honorable members of the terms of the amendment which is before the Chair. The honorable member for Northcote moved that the following words be added to the motion that the House take into consideration the report of Sir Eric St. Johnston :-and in view of the contents-resolves that-I emphasize those words-the Government, having failed to provide and maintain an adequate Police Force, deserves the strongest censure of this House. In listening to Opposition members who have contributed to the debate, the first point that becomes evident is that the honorable member for Brunswick West obviously does not agree with the proposed amendment, although he concluded his remarks by saying that he supported it. Throughout his speech, the honorable member condemned the report of Sir Eric St. Johnston, disagreeing with the majority of the recommendations in it. He devoted ,much of his speech, not to the amendment that had been moved, but to matters pertaining to the Police Service Board. In this respect, the honorable member's remarks were irrelevant to the 'motion. In common with other Opposition speakers, the honorable member dealt at length with the rates of pay of policemen and other emoluments which they receive and to other matters which are the responsibility not of the Government but of the Police Service Board. To use such arguments in support of a motion which purports to condemn the Government for not having taken certain action is to


contradict the principles so proudly established in 1946 by a Labor Government when the ·control of pay and allowances of members of the Police Force was taken out of the hands of the Government. At paragraph 2 on page 74 of his report, Sir Eric St. Johnston stated-

It is a popular misconception, however, that it is the Government that decides the scales of pay of the police gener.ally, but this is not so . . . The Government has always accepted the decisins of the bo~rd and, indeed, it has no power to do otherwIse.

One can dismiss a large part of the contributions of Opposition members as being irrelevant to the debate because, in fact, they ignored the actions of a Labor Government in 1946.

In his speech, the honorable member for Sunshine made an impassioned plea. He demanded, as did the Deputy ·Leader of the Opposition, a Royal Commission. However, the honorable .member for Sunshine did not want a Royal Commission ·into the Police Force but into the entire Public Service. In support of his proposition, the honorable member r·ead out a list of a number ·of robberies tha t occurred in Collingwood and other inner areas and concluded by suggesting that Sir Eric St. Johnston has slipped in his job because he reported, as requested, on the efficiency of the Police Force and not as the honorable member for Sunshine would have preferred, on the efficiency of the Government.

Mr. WILKEs.-There is a difference.

Mr. MEAGHER.-There is a vast difference between the two. I shall leave the honorable member for Sunshine to his own confusion and deal with the confusion so apparent in the speech of the Deputy Leader of the .opposition. lcan understand the Deputy Leader of the Opposition becoming confused. .owing to the length of his speech, he exposed himself towards the ·conclusion of his remarks to the extreme danger of forgetting how he commenced it. 'f.he honorable member who opened

the debate commenced by suggesting to the House that, in the first instance, the Government was wrong in referring allegations of graft and corruption against 'certain .members of the Police Force to the attention of the Chief Commissioner. He suggested that the Government should have immediately set up a Royal Commission and in fact ignored the head of the department. The Government acted quite properly in saying to the Chief Commissioner, as any Chief Secretary would say, " I hear that allegations are being made against certain individual members of your force", not against the force as a force but against certain individuals. Obviously any Chief Secretary would send for the Chief Commissioner and say, "These allegations are being made against individual .members of your force. I want your report on whatever you can discover so that I can determine what further action, if any, can be taken ". .Jt would be an act of grave discourtesy to the Chief Commissioner if the Chief Secretary did not do this. 'It would also be an act of irresponsibility on the part of the Chief Secretary if he failed to extend that sort of courtesy to the man who was responsible for the command of the ·force.

Unlike the course suggested by the honorable member for N orthcote, the Chief Commissioner did not drop the matter like a hot potato in the lap of the Government; he made certain inquiries and reported that from his position he was satisfied that there were prima facie cases to answer but that he was unable to take the matter further. He recom·mended to the Government that a further investigation take place. Immediately, the Government set up the Kaye inquiry, and-before you rule me out of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for speaking about that matter-it was established to investigate not the efficiency of the Police Force as Colonel Eric St. Johnston was asked to do, but charges of corruption against certain members within the Police Force. The inquiry resulted in charges being laid against certain individuals.


The honorable member for Northcote then referred to the fact that the report of the Kaye inquiry had not been published and that a ruling was given fr.om the Chair in this House that whilst charges are being heard in the Supreme Court the matter must be regarded as sub judice. He said in effect, that the sub judice law had been introduced for the purpose of protecting inept Governments.

Mr. WILKES.-No, I s'aid that the sub judice law should not be paramount. Parliament should be supreme.

Mr. !MEAGHIER.-I accept the correction of the honorable member for N orthcote and I apologize if I have misquoted him. I have observed the rule of not reading from the debates in Hansard for the current sessional period. The honorable member for Northcote would now have us believe that Parliament should not observe the rule of sub judice.

Mr. WILKES.-I believe that.

Mr. MEAGHER.-He overlooks the fact that the rule of sub judice is a concept of law which has been developed over many years for a good reason, not to protect the rights of Governments, Parliaments or anyone else, but to ensure that individuals get a fair trial in the courts.

Mr. WILKES.-It does, irrespective of the political colour of the Goverr..ment.

Mr. MEAGHER.-The honorable member for Northcote either believes in the basic principles of law and therefore that the Parliament should also observe them, or he believes that Parliament should be absolved from observing them.

Mr. WILKEs.-P.arliament makes the law and should be supreme.

Mr. MEAGHER.-The honorable member for Northcote now tells me that Parliament makes the law and should be supreme. Is he suggesting that Parliament should be entitled to do an injustice to the individual? If so, I violently disagree with him. The

rule of sub judice is designed to protect the right of the individual and to assure that every individual is entitled to a fair trial.

I have adequately dealt with the arguments advanced by members of the Opposition that the Government is allegedly responsible for the shortcomings in the Police Force and for graft and corruption in the force. The Opposition believes that the Government is responsible because it has allegedly failed to raise the pay of policemen and so make the force more attractive. This is the basis for the Opposition's amendment, but -it is completely irrelevant. Great play was also made of the description of Melbourne as a little Chicago and of the statement that the Police Force was inadequate because it was unable to control .crime in this city. At paragraph 8 of page 129 of his report on the question of crime prevention Colonel Eric St. Johnston says-

It is generally conceded that if a Police Force clears up 50 per cent of the crime reported to it, it is giving adequate service. When examining the number of crimes detected, it is usually found that the detection rate of very serious crime, such as homicide and grievous bodily harm, is as high as about 75 per cent, whereas the detection rate of minor and almost undetectable crime is as low as 25 per cent. An examination of the Victoria Police figures shows homicide 93 per cent, serious assault 75 per cent, and larceny (excluding motor vehicles) 29 per cent.

Is that a picture of an inadequate Police Force? Is it a picture of a force that is not doiI)g its job?

Mr. WHITING.-Is a force which is short of 2,000 men an adequate Police Force?

Mr. MEAGHER.-I shall deal with that aspect. I agree that Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston believes that it is desirable that a further 2,000 policemen should be recruited. The Government was also told by members of the Opposition, and particularly by the honorable member for Northcote, that its continual increase in the authorized strength of the force is meaningless because the Government has not provided adequate funds with which to meet that increase. He also said that,


during the life of this Government, the Police Force has never reached its authorized strength. He attributed that to what I believe is a misreading of the report of a Chief Commissioner who said that the shortage of recruits in the Police 'Force was due to the economic situation. The honorable member for Northcote interpreted that as meaning that it was due to the economies practised by the Government. Of course, that was not what the Chief Commissioner meant.

Mr. WILKEs.--tWhat did he mean?

:Mr. MEAGHER.-I shall tell the honorable member in a moment. The Chief CommiSsioner was well aware that the real cause of the failure to recruit police up to the authorized strength was the general economic situation of full employment when it was difficult to get staff for any sort of job.

Mr. WILTON.-If he meant that, why did he not say so?

Mr. MEAGHER.-He said that the shortage of recruits was due to the economic circumstances in which the community found itself. I shall quote figures to prove my argument.

Mr. WILTON.-YOU are trying to put words in the Chief Commissioner's mouth.

Mr. MEAGHER.-That is not so'; that is what the honorable member for Broadmeadows is doing. In May, 1969, the Police Service Board issued a determination, the result of which was that the Victoria iPolice Force at the time became the highest paid Police IForce in Australia. In October, 1969, the strength of the force was 4,738 men and 71 applications for admission were pending. As at the 31st January, 1971, the strength of the force was 4,773, and at a time when the Victoria Police Force is not the highest paid force in Victoria, 145 applications, not 71 applications, are pending.

,Mr. WILKEs.-What does that prove?

Mr. MEA:GHER.~1t disproves the contention of members of the Opposition that the number of applications that are received for recruitment to the Police Force is directly related to rates of pay. It is related to the economic circumstances generally in the' community. At the period when the Victoria Police Force was the highest paid force in Australia, only half the number of applications for admission were pending than was the case when the .force had the lowest rates of pay. Statistics do not prove anything in particular, but members of the Opposition cannot have it both ways.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The Deputy Leader of the Opposition is continually interjecting and continually out of order. I invite the honorable member to cease.

Mr. MEAGHER.-The Opposition has based its argument on the proposition that Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston made a report in a number of places in which he quite justly praised the performance of the Victoria Police Force, and at the same time suggested that improvementscould be made to' the organization and the administration of that Force. The Government has said that it will carry out all of the improvements as quickly and as soon as practical.

Mr. FELL.-The Minister has not said when this will be done. Does he mean in 1984?

Mr. MEAGHER.-I shall not give the Opposition my estimate. I shall quote Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston's estimate. In the first paragraph on page 190, Sir Eric stated-

There is nothing in any of these criticisms that oannot be put right, given goodwill, money and time. If the recommendations I have made are implemented in full without delay, there will be a big increase in efficiency in the next few years; though full efficiency will not be achieved until many more men and women are recruited and until a number of new buildings and more equipment has been provided for police purposes, and this will take five to ten years.

4266 . Police [ASSEMBLY.] Force .

I have quoted Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston's estimate and not that of the Government.

Mr. WHITING.-That is out of context.

Mr. MEAGHER.-In the light of that comment by Colonel Sir Eric St. J ohns'ton, how ·can the Opposition say with any degree of honesty that a Government which says quite frankly that it will carry out. thes.e improvements as soon as practical IS doing anything 'Other rthan saying it accepts the St. Johnston report and proposes to carry it out?

Mr. FLOYD.-We cotdd have told you that.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order ! The honorable member f'Or Williamstown is making the same interjection c'Ontinually.

Mr. MEAGHER.-For the benefit of the Opposition, and in defence of the Police Force, which is said to be inadequate and which has been subjected to considerable criticism by members 'Of the Opposition, I shall supply the figures as at 16th March, 1971, showing the effective increase in the performance of work as between the old wireless patrol and the crime car squads, as recently reorganized. From May, 1969, to February, 1970, the wireless patrol made 212 arrests. From May, 1970, to February, 1971, the crime car squads made 332 arrests. Charges preferred last year were 466; this year 622. The percentage of stolen cars recovered increased from 22.6 to 37.1.

Mr. FLOYD.-Who got away?

The SPEAKER.-Order! The honorable member for Williamstown is continually interjecting and using the same interjeotion. I ask him to cease and will not ask him again.

Mr. FLOYD (Williamst'Own).Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I object to the Minister giving onesided figures. Why does not the honorable gentleman give the figures showing how many got away?

The SPEAKER.-Order! There is no point of order.

Mr. FLOYD.-We knew that.

The SPEAKER.-Order! I call on the Minister of Housing.

Mr. FLOYD.-Carry on.

The SPEAKER.-Order! I have spoken to the honorable member for Williamstown and pointed out to him an obvious matter of which he is fully aware. I have spoken to him twice. I do not want to speak to him again about it.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister 'Of Housing}.-I wish to say little more 'because, as I have attempted to dem'Onstrate, the Opposition has made a thinly-based charge against the Government of having neglected the P'Olice F'Orce for years, of having been responsible for inadequacies that the Opposition has failed to prove, and of having neglected to' do things which Colonel Sir Eric St. J ohns'ton and the Opposition both claim are outside the Government's powers. It adds up to a thinly-veiled excuse to make political 'capital out of a report which the Government has unhesitatingly accepted and which has provided an opportunity for Parliament to: ensure that the police will become more efficient and that Victoria will have a better Police Force in rthe future.

If the Opposition chooses to accuse the Government of not having made sufficient funds available to do all O'f the things which funds alone will not do, and if the Opposition believes rthat the Government should accept the responsibility for making these funds available, a clear obligation rests on the Opposition to support the Government in its efforts to' see that it commands the funds that it needs. The Government has been accused of having failed to carry out its duty to provide the necessary funds and of having failed to carry out its duty, as alleged by the Opposi'tion, to recruit people, who admittedly were not prepared to serve in the force for whatever


reason. The Opposition should also have the honesty to say to the Government, "We will support you in demanding the right to' accept this sDrt of respDnsibility". In other words, the OppO'sition should support the Government in its repeated demands for a restoration of financial responsibility to the State.

The Opposition has clearly failed to establish the case it set out to establish. It has succeeded in emphasizing that certain things could be done to' improve the Police Force. These things have never been disputed by the Government; they have been admitted. The Government has said that despite ilts efforts in the past to improve the Police Force, it now accepts these further efforts as being necessary and that they will be made by the Government as soon as pO'ssible. It is not sufficient for the Opposition to' say that the Government should carry out the impossible things first and the possible things later. It is not sufficient for the Opposition to say that, because the Government is not alt this time in a position to commit itself to expenditure of $40 million on the Police Force, it is in fact refusing Ito do any of the things that are within its power, because as the Opposition knows, quite a number of these things have already been carried out or are in the process of being carried out.

The Opposition must also know that the constant attacks on the Police Force, the constant denigration of the Police Force and, the thing which really appalled me during this debate, the constant attempts by the Opposition to relate the charges of graft against a few individuals in the Police Force to the entire force, can do nothing less than lower the morale of the police. No member of the House will dare to say that the great majority of policemen are not honest. I suggest to the members of the Opposition that in these circumstances they could have done a lot more good to the Police Force and a lot less harm

to the cause of law and order and the well-being Df the cO'mmunity if they had avoided some of the greater extravagances in their comments in this debate, and cD-operated with the Government to ensure that in future the suggesltions of Colonel Sir Eric St. JohnstDn will be carried out so far as it lies in the power of the Government of Victoria to do so.

Mr. FELL (Greensborough.)-The Opposition is united in rts support of Ithe amendm"ent which is a censure motion of the Government for its failure to face up to the requirements that were known long before the St. Johnston report became available. There is nO' doubt that the St. Johnston report is excellent. The claims made by Government members that this is an attack on the Police FDrce do not hold water. If we are honest with ourselves, we know that this is an accusation being levelled at the Government. The members of the Opposition are not accusing the Police Force. We have not, during any of the discussion relating to police protection in the community, levelled any accusations at the Police Force. The Labor Party supports the Police Force and believes it is a necessary part of the community, and that ilt is fulfilling a far greater service than that provided by some members of this House. The Opposition accuses the Government of not taking appropriate action in providing the services demanded by ,the community.

I invite honorable members to examine the Government's performance. It cannot be denied that there have been continued night bashings and rapings throughout the community. The Police Force cannot be blamed for this situation; the responsible authO'rity-the Government -can be blamed for not meeting the public demand, irrespective of whether more expenditure would be involved. If the public demands that protection be provided, it is our responsibility to' make sure that the necessary wheels are put in motion to' have police protection


provided in proportion to the demand. In the Greensborough electorate, the ratio of police to population is one in 3,500. Is there any area in the world that has a smaller percentage? My allegation is that the ratio in my electorate is far lower than the average throughout the world. The people have a right to adequate police protection. With motor vehicle thefts a proportion of vehicles are not reclaimed. The Police Force ,cannot be blamed for this, because they would do the job if they had adequate numbers. They have stated their ,case. The secretary of their associa Hon has repeatedly put the case and appealed to the Government, but has the association been heard? Have the reports that have come up through the years been acted upon? The Government has shown by its inaction that it .is not really concerned with the wishes of the community for a better Police Force. This has brought about this censure motion which is condemning the inaction of the ,Government in not meeting the demand for a better Police Force.

The his/tory of the situation as I have seen it in my short life in Parliament and in the preceding three years, representing a community of some 80,000 people, is that in 1968 there was a deputation to: the Chief Secretary to get a 24-hour police protection service within the Greensborough electorate. Is that too much to ask? I dwelt on this matter at some length in one of my earlier speeches which is recorded at page 2564 of Hansard of 26th November, 1970. I referred to the many youth activities in the area which were being developed by community services, such as the progress association or church authorities. I regret to say that the lack of a sufficient number of police officers to patrol the area has led to the closing down of the Bundoora dance, the Greensborough church dance, and the coffee shop which was opened in Greensborough. These facilities had been provided to keep Mr. Fell

young people off the streets. After all, in his policy speech prior to the last election, the Premier made a vow to the people in this regard. The honorable gentleman stated that he would provide adequate facilities for youth activities and increased recreational facilities. I challenge any member on the Government side of the House to' refute that statement.

Although the growth rate of Greensborough is 10 per cent per annum-a figure which can easily be verified-all dances in the area have been closed, apart from one which we are attempting to establish at Bundoora. It is to be hoped that it does not fail, for it is the only social function left to provide for 80,000 people. Is this the action of a responsible Government?

Mr. STEPHEN.-You should come to Ballarat and get a few ideas.

Mr. FELL.-I do not wish to go to Ballarat. I believe services there are worse than they are at Greensborough, largely due to the inadequacy of the member who represents the area.

A number of assaults have taken place in the Greensborough area. The first that came to my notice took place when it was decided that railway stations should be unmanned, at which time many of my constituents, particularly women, had to alight from trains and expose themselves to the risk of being assaulted either on the platform or when walking home. There was one case of a young new Australian who was seriously assaulted on his way home. He suffered a broken nose and other injuries. He was unable to provide for himself, and the community came to: his assistance. The assailants were never brought before a court not because of inefficiency on the par-t of the police, but simply because, following a direction by the Government, an .insufficient number of police were on duty. I also know of at least four parties held in my electorate which were interrupted by mobs of youths.


They attempted to take over the functions and, when unsuccessful in doing so, they assaulted the guests. In each case the matter was reported to the police, but only one person has been apprehended.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-I invite the honorable member to discuss the motion before the House.

Mr. FELL.-I am endeavouring to ci'te specific cases to support the argument of the Opposition that the Government should be censured because of its inactivity. I also relate my remarks to what I said at page 3375 of Hansard in the debate on the Estimates, when I referred to: the inadequacy of police protection in my electorate. The Government has made no attempt to reply to the points I then raised, although it has had ample opportunity to do so. I levelled accusations against the Government, but it has failed to reply to: them. At page 2194 of Hansa"d I referred at length to the Premier's promises to provide additional facilities for youth activity.

The SPEAKER.-This debate is concerned with the Police Department.

Mr. FELL.-Yes, Mr. Speaker, and at page 2194 I said that the control of people's behaviour in the street was a primary responsibility of the Police 'Force.

In answer to a question which I asked in the House on 1 st December of last year, I was informed that the police station at Eltham closed at 11 p.m. on week days and that the station at Greensborough closed at 11 p.m. on Sundays to Thursdays, at 12 midnight on Fridays and that on Saturdays it was open until midnight and ,remained open until 1 a.m. on Sunday morning. This is far short of the 24 hours a day protection which is 'sought, and it appears that young people in my electorate

must have their times of retiring controlled by the time of closure of police stations in the district.

I think the final insult concerns the proposed extension of the Greensborough police sta'tion. In answer to a question that I asked in the House today, the Chief Secretary informed me that it was not possible to indicate when work on the extensions would commence because it was dependent upon the provision of funds.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-1 rise to a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This debate has ranged over a wide field, but it seems to me tha't the honorable member is not discussing the motion which is now before the House but is discussing affairs connected with the Greensborough electorate. I suggest that his remarks are more germane to 'the supply debate.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-I find that there is no point of order, but, as I have indicated to the honorable member on 'two or three occasions, this debate concerns Ithe Police Force. A motion has been moved in relation to the report of Sir Eric St. Johnston. An amendment to that motion has also been moved, and I think that any honorable member should be able to focus his attention on those matters. On the matter of slight relevance, I rule that the discussion of some factors connected with the building of a police station -even in the Greensborough electorate-is of slight relevance.

Mr. FELL (Greensborough).-The information has now been released in a letter dated 9th March and signed by the Minister of Public Works. The letter states categorically--

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-I must rule out of order a detailed discussion on a local matter like that, but not on the shortage of bUildings.


Mr. FELL.-Very well, Mr. Speaker. The letter states -

The SPEAKER.-Order! I invite the honorable member to understand what the debate on this matter means and the necessity to discuss the general question before the Chair.

Mr. FELL.-Mr. Speaker, the point I am making is that on the authority of the Government this police station will not be built. This :is the situation that the local people now face and this is one electorate where the Government has shown its intolerance of the people. In fact, it has indicated that it is not prepared even to consider their wishes. It has disregarded them all along the line. Discussions have taken place over the years, and if members of the Government were honest they would admit that the police protection in their own areas leaves something to be desired.

Despite all the points raised by the few speakers for the Government who have chosen to support the motion and oppose the amendment, inadequacies exist in the service provided by the Police Force. Towards the end of the debate, one Minister was prepared to defend the Government. The honorable member for Evelyn was prepared to accuse the Government and his comments will appear in Hansard. The honorable member should vote for the amendment because it was implicit in what he said that he indicted the Government.

Mr. STOKES.-I rejected the amendment.

Mr. FELL.-Admittedly the honorable member rejected the amendment, but he strongly criticized the Government and agreed with the views expressed by the Opposition. The Country Party should align itself with the amendment, but I note that only one member of that party is present to defend the party's

viewpoint. That is an indictment of the party's approach to this debate. If any member of the public or any member of Parliament reads the Hansard record of this debate, he will come to the conclusion which was arrived at many years ago, namely, that the Government has avoided its responsibility and acted in direct opposition to the wishes of the people concerning police protection in this State.

Mr. KIRKWOOD ('Preston).- I do not believe that any attack on the opinion held by the OppOSition has been substantiated. In fact, this evening the Minister of Housing brought in the red herring that the Opposition has attacked the Police Force. Any honorable member who examines his conscience will agree that this is wrong. There is no doubt that the Opposition presented its case most ably, and all speakers for the Opposition spoke admirably.

I desire to make a number of observations on the report. At page 182, it is suggested that the Police Standing Orders should be amended to provide that weapons shall be kept at police stations and made available to policemen only when needed. In the first paragraph on that page, Sir Eric explains that the carrying of firearms by policemen affects the attitude of the public towards the Police Force. If public respect for the police is to be regained, a policeman should be able to use his position of authority without the use of weapons. Amongst other things, the section of the report concerning the use of firearms is worthy of earnest consideration.

Policemen who are municipal councillors and become mayors of a city are made justices of the peace. Sir Eric St. Johnston leaves this wide open but suggests that possibly the police should reSign their com-mission as Justices of the peace. To

·Police [23 MARCH, 1971.] Force. 4271

my mind, this is an intrusion into the public life of a policeman who

· accepts the responsibility of a municipal position. It is quite possible that Sir Eric is confusing municipal life in Victoria with that

· in England, where the municipal councils control the Police Force. This matter should be examined closely, but I hope that a policeman will not lose his right to be a justice of the peace if he becomes the mayor of a municipality.

With regard to foot patrols, at page 108 of the report, Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston states-

It is my belief that not enough officers in -the Victoria Police patrol on foot in uniform and members of the public have commented on this to me.

Here we have the old concept of a · borough police force and a modern scientific police officer suggesting reasons why foot patrols should be reinstated. He suggests how this can be done and how men can be trained for motor patrols and still use their feet as well. Sir Eric suggests the use of two-way radio. This seems to be a sensible approach because it maintains a close contact between the constable on the beat and the local police station. The constable is

· never out of touch and consequently he can be called to an emergency. The report states that a -constable so equipped ·might be able to stop a shopbreaker or prevent other small happenings within a municipality. The most important

· aspect is that policemen will be seen by the public, whereas at present they are seldom seen. I am sure that the proposal will meet with the approval of the public.

The report refers to one item · about which I know little but which concerns me as a member of Parliament. I intend to

· find out something about this. At page 131 of Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston's report one reads about the Vice Squad, the Special Branch,

the Observation Squad, the Intelligence Squad and the Consorting Squad. Only the Chief Secretary will be receiving reports on those squads. I believe that they should be made available to all members of Parliament because Parliament rules supreme and makes the ,laws. Laws cannot be. passed in ignorance, and honorable members cannot form opinions in ignorance. For many reasons, this provision is disturbing. It could have far-reaching effects from the political aspect. I do not suggest that the reports will be used politically. However, honorable members have read newspapers and magazines and have seen pictures. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the reports could fall into the wrong hands of those who wield political power and I am sure that honorable members believe we should not be placed in that position.

The honorable member for Sandringham said tonight that the police were not getting the support they needed from the courts. I felt that this was an unjustified slur on the courts of the land. When the courts adjudicate in a particular way, Parliamentarians should uphold them because they administer the law. It is wrong and unjust that the honorable member for Sandringham should use his position to whiplash a stipendiary magistrate or a judge because a decision was brought down with which he did not agree.

I make a plea for the bandsmen. I hope that the Police Force will not degenerate to the stage where special duties are taken away. The brass and pipe bands constitute something which is part of Victoria. There is something special in a man who prepares and plays on ceremonial occasions. Right is on his side. He may have special duties, but why should he not have them? He may travel hundred of miles to do this. He is one of the images that the people respect, and surely it is for the good

4272 Police Force. [ASSEMBLY.] Adjournment.

of the State that something that has the eye of the public should not be disbanded.

The House divided on Mr. Wilkes's amendment (the Hon. Vernon Christie in the chair)-

Ayes 28 Noes 37

Majority against the amendment 9

AyES.

Mr. Amos Mr. Bornstein Mr. Broad Mr. Clarey Mr. Curnow Mr. Doube Mr. Edmunds Mr. Evans

(Gippsland East) Mr. Floyd Mr. Fordham Mr. Ginifer Mr. Kirkwood Mr. Lewis

(Dundas) Mr. Lewis

(Portland)

Mr. Lind Mr. Lovegrove Mr. Mitchell Mr. Mutton Mr. Ross-Edwards Mr. Shilton Mr. Simmonds Mr. Trewin Mr. Trezise Mr. Whiting Mr. Wilkes Mr. Wilton.

Tellers: Mr. Fell Mr. McDonald

(Rodney).

NoES. Mr. Balfour Mr. Billing Mr. Birrell Mr. Borthwick Mr. Burgin Mr. Dixon Mr. Doyle Mr. Dunstan Mr. Evans

(Ballaarat North) Mrs. Goble Mr. Hayes Mr. Jona Mr. Loxton Mr. McLaren Mr. Maclellan Mr. Manson Mr. Meagher Mr. Rafferty Mr. Reese Mr. Reid Mr. Rossiter

Mr. Scanlan Mr. Smith

(Bellarine) Mr. Smith

( Warrnambool) Mr. Stephen Mr. Stokes Sir Edgar Tanner Mr. Taylor

(Balwyn) Mr. Taylor

(Gippsland South) Mr. Templeton Mr. Thompson Mr. Trethewey Mr. Wheeler Mr. Wilcox Mr. Wiltshire.

Tellers: Mr. Crellin Mr. McCabe.

PAIRS.

Mr. Holding Mr. Moss

Mr. Turnbull I

Sir Henry Bolte Mr. MacDonald

(Glen Iris.) Mr. Suggett.

The motion of the Chief Secretary was agreed to. Mr. Kirkwood

ADJOURNMENT. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE: DAYS AND

HOURS OF MEETING-FORESTS COMMISSION: EMPLOYEES AT ST. ARNAUD -EDUCATION DEPARTMENT: GL'ENROY HIGH SCHOOL-ROAD SAFETY AND TRAFFIC AUTHORITY: ACCIDENTS IN BUNDOORA-ANZAC DAY HOLIDAY.

Mr. REID ~Chief Secretary).-I move-

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until tomorrow, at half-past Two o'clock.

The Government has decided that in future the House shall meet at 2.15 p.m. on Wednesdays. The motion will be that the House adjourn until 1.45 p.m., Mr. Speaker to take the chair at 2.15 p.m.

The Leader of the Country Party made this suggestion with regard to remaining Wednesdays, after tomorrow. This proposal was discussed with the Opposition and was assented to. Accordingly, 'for the remainder of this sessional period, apart from tomorrow, when the House will meet at 3 p.m., the regular tim·e of meeting on Wednesdays will be 2.15 p.m.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I do not disagree with the proposition put by the Chief Secretary, but I point out that no provision has been ,made for the holding of Grievance Day. I should like the Chief Secretary to indicate what provision is to be made for Grievance Day on the Thursday on which it falls-1st April.

Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Leader of the Country Party).-I wish to make it clear that the suggestion for meeting early on Wednesdays when it is not prop.osed t.o meet on Thursday was made so that the House could rise early on Wednesday night to allow country members to get home. I wanted to make that point so that the early finish on Wednesday would not be overlo.oked.

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-By leave, I assure the Leader of the Country Party and other h.onorable members that I had not .overlooked


the point of which he reminded me. I shall examine the question of providing a Grievance Day and will advise the Leaders of the parties as early as possible.


Mr. REID CChief Secretary).-l move-

That the House do now adjourn. Mr. CURNOW (Kara Kara).--ll

direct the attention of the Minister of Forests to a matter relating to the St. Arnaud forestry district where this week two employees have been dismissed and another transferred to the Maryborough district. I believe this situation has arisen through lack of funds held by the officer-in-charge of this district. I understand that this officer acts in an autonomous capacity to the extent that at the beginning of each financial year he makes out a budget and applies for so much money. When it is granted he determines how many men he can employ. This year he budgeted for $X and, according to the sum received, he employed X number of employees. However, a substantial wage rise occurred 'in the period between when he applied for his allocation and the present time. He finds himself at this stage $2,000 short of his budget and is thus forced to put off these men. The ·men concerned have had between ten and fifteen years' service; two have homes established ,in st. Arnaud and one at Bealiba. One of the men is aged 60 years.

If the Minister of Forests could in some way authorize that $2,000 be added to the district officer's budget it would obviate the necessity for these men to leave St. Arnaud to find work, as there .is no work available there, and having to try to sell their homes, which is a difficult task in the country. In addition, the work on which they have been engaged could be continued, and I assure the Minister there is plenty of work for them to do at St. Arnaud. Sufficient equipment is available-vehicles, chain saws, tractors, and so on-and the

allocation of $2,000 could overcome the difficulty that has arisen. I believe the problem would e~ist only until the end of this financial year when a new allocation of finance would enable these men to be retained in employment.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).-I wish to raise with the Minister of Education a matter relating to Glenroy High School and the situation that has developed there s'ince last week. The position has now deteriorated to the stage where a substantial number of staff have gone on strike as a result of unqualified teachers or teachers without teacher training being directed to the school. I have raised this matter with the Minister previously, I appeal to the honorable gentleman because, when he answered a question which I directed to him on 9th March, he indicated that the department was contacting applicants who had applied for teacher training and who for various reasons had not taken up their positions in the colleges, or had not accepted positions offered to them, to ascertain what the problem was.

I again ask the Minister to take steps to have Miss Reilly accepted because I understand that she was an applicant for teacher training and that the department was not able to fit her in. I am informed that, although the department did not make the offer in writing, it was stated to her verbally that she would definitely be trained this year, and I also understand that she has now been offered training next year. The presence of this teacher at the school has precipitated the current strike which is affecting the school to the extent that pupils are being rostered and half the number of pupils attend every second day. In view of what the Minister said on 9th March, I ask the honorable gentleman if he will have Miss Reilly included in those persons who


are being contacted to find out why they have not taken up the training positions offered to them.

Mr. FELL (Greensborough).-I direct an urgent appeal to the Chief Secretary on behalf of the Shire of Diamond Valley, which has been unable to arrange a meeting with officers of the Road Safety and Traffic Authority at the corner of Settlement R:oad and Plenty Road, Bundoora, which was recently completed in the course of new highway construction. Three fatal accidents which have occurred at the intersection have been mentioned in the daily press. The municipal engineer is anxious to prevent further fatalities from occurring. They have all occurred since the completion of the intersection. On a number of occasions the engineer has asked for an urgent meeting to arrive at some temporary conclusion, prior to getting approval from the authority for more permanent control of the intersection.

Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir).-Recently the Chief Secretary, in answer to a question that I asked, indicated that he would consider the proclamation of Monday, 26th April, as a holiday, as Anzac Day this year falls on a Sunday. Since that Hme all other States and the Commonwealth Territories have proclaimed 26th April as a holiday. I ask the Chief Secretary to give urgent consideration to the matter. Certain employers with businesses in Victoria operate in other States, and if a holiday is not granted on the Monday in this State, employees of those firms in Victoria will be at a disadvantage. I appreciate the fact that the honorable gentleman has only recently taken over administration of the Chief Secretary's Department, but ,many workers are concerned that Victoria is the last State to proclaim 26th April as a holiday.

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-I will inquire into the matter raised by the honorable member for Greensborough. I ask the honorable

member to give me further details and correspondence so that :I ·can take the necessary action.

With reference to the matter raised :by the honorable member for Reservoir, arrangements were made for a deputation of representatives of the Victorian Trades Hall Council to see the Under-Secretary regarding the gazetting of 26th April as a holiday. I have yet to receive the report from the Under-Secretary, but, subject to anything that is put to me as a result of that deputation, my opinion is that 26th April will not be gazetted as requested.

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister .of Education) .-One of the two teachers who have caused the completely unjustifiable dispute at Glenroy High School is a Bachelor of Science who obtained his degree at Cairo and who passed in the subject of practical teaching at the Secondary Teachers College last year. The other is a teacher of needlework who has a diploma from the Royal IMelbourne Institute of Technology in dressmaking, as well as a certificate ·of dress designing from the Emily McPherson College. It has been suggested that she cannot teach needlework! The principal of the Glenroy High School believes both these persons are 'capable teachers, who are doing a ,fine job at the school.

Parliament has decreed that the Director-General of Education shall decide whether temporary teachers are qualified to teach. He has ,certified that these two teachers are qualified to teach and I believe the time has arrived when it would be far better if some of those teachers who are out on strike paid :more attention to their own teaching in the class-room and less attention to the qualifications ·of people teaching in nearby class-rooms.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Forests) .-The honorable member for Kara Kara has put his finger on a problem which is common to all departments, all Govern'ments, and

A djo,urnment. [24 MARCH, 1971.] Questions on Notice. 4275

all industry in Victoria because of frequent rises in wages. The expenditure of the department was budgeted for at the beginning of the year. Since then unknown and unpredictable increases have taken place. Obviously they benefit some people but seriously disadvantage others. However, I will examine the position of the two men concerned at St. Arnaud, and advise the honorable member in due course of the result of my investigation.


The House adjourned at 11.30 p.m.

1Jltgi,6!ntiut munnei!.

Wednesday, March 24, 1971.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett) took the chair at 3.4 p.m. and read the prayer. -

PROBATE DUTY ACT 1970. PROCLAMATION.

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL (W-estern Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Has the Government proclaimed the Probate Duty Act 1970; if not, when will it be proclaimed?

The Hon. (Minister of answer is-

G. L. CHANDLER Agriculture) .-The

The Act has not yet been proclaimed. So far it has not been possible to devise a method to offset the problem of the higher rebate of State probate duty being substantially offset by increased Commonwealth estate duty. The only possibility seems to lie in an amendment by the Commonwealth GovfU"nment of its Estate Duty Act.

POKER MACHINES. GOVERNMENT POLICY.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

What is the Government's policy with reference to the introduction into Victoria of poker machines and the like?


On many occasions the Premier has stated publicly that the Government will not in any circumstances allow poker machines to be operated in this State.

POLICE DEPARTMENT. PROPOSED PRAHRAN STATION:

USE OF SITE.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) asked the

Minister of Public Works-As the proposed police station in Prahran

will not be built until the 1972-73 financial year, will the Government agree to the proposal of the Prahran City Council and make the land available to Hawksburn Primary School for much needed playing space?


The Education Department is currently examining the suggestion of the Prahran City Council that the vacant land at the rear of the properties in Malvern Road, Prahran, be used as playing space by the Hawksburn Primary School until the site is required for redevelopment for court and police purposes.

The honorable member will be -advised direct as soon as a decision is made.

HOUSING COMMISSION. LAND PURCHASES IN BERWICK AND

CRANBOURNE.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Pubilc Works-

Has the Housing Commission purchased any land for home-building purposes in the municipalities of Berwick and Cranbourne; if so, where are such blocks located, and how many have been purchased in each area?

4276 Questions on [COUNCIL.] . Notice.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-The answer is-

Yes. 507 acres of unsubdivided land and approximately 100 building allotments at Narre Warren in the Shire of Berwick. No land has been purchased in the Shire of Cranbourne.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. CAMPBELLFIELD HEIGHTS PRIMARY

SCHOOL.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

On what date will the Campbellfield Heights Primary School be ready for occupation?

The HGn. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-The answer is-

The building proper has been completed and the sewerage system is expected to be completed by 5th April, 1971.

The school will be ready for occupation on that date.

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. PR'OP'OSED AGRICULTURAL C'OLLEGE IN

GIPPSLAND.

The HOon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) asked the IMinister of Agriculture-

Following a statement by the Premier in his policy speech that an agricultural college would be established in Gippsland, has the Government decided on a location; if so-(i) has the necessary land been acquired; (ii) when is it programmed to be built; and (iii) where will it be built?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answer is-

The Government has not yet decided on a location.

The question of the siting of an agricultural college in Gippsland is in abeyance pending the completion of the new Glenormiston Agricultural College, stage one of which is to open next week with almost a full intake of first-year students for its f.arm management course. Stage two of the building programme, which will provide accommodation and facilities for the remaining half of the students (60), is scheduled for completion early in 1972.

An appraisal of the new college in operation will be made before assessing the probable demand for expanding the existing facilities for agricultural education. In this connection I should point out that there has been a falling off in the demand for the farm management course.

PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT. ST. KILDA C'OURT H'OUSE AND

P'OLICE STATI'ON.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

Has the Government any intention of remodelling the St. Kilda court house and police station; if so, when and to what extent?


It is intended to proceed with the renovations and remodelling of the St. Kilda police station when approval has been received from the Chief Secretary and funds are available.

The extent of the remodelling is general alterations and resiting of toilets, etc.

The remodelling of the St. Kilda court house is under consideration by the Law Department, but no definite plans have been made.

RETRENCHMENT 'OF EMPL'OYEES.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Provinc-e) asked the Minister of Public Works-

How many employees have been retrenched by the Public Works Department since 1st January, 1971, -and in what categories were they employed?

The HGn. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-The answer is-Forty two-

Painters 32 Plasterers 4 CH~n~n 1 Builders labourers 5

I have had a number of conferences with the unions concerned at which we have discuss-ed retrenchments. I am keeping in contact with the unions in an endeavour to retain as many of the day-labour force as possible.


FISHERIES AND WILDLIFE BRANCH.

COMMERCIAL FISHING IN RIVER MURRAY.

The Hon. B. P. DUNN (NorthWestern Province) asked the Minister of Public W orks-

(a) Does he consider commercial fishing in the River Murray a threat to the survival of various species of fish in the river at present?

(b) If extinction of certain species is imminent due to excessive commercial fishing, what action does the Government propose to take to safeguard these species?


The River Murray falls within the jurisdiction of New South Wales and consequently the question of commercial fishing in the river is a matter for the Government of that State to determine.

MOTOR VEHICLES. FITTING OF SEAT BELTS.

The Hon. B. P. DUNN (NorthWestern P.rovince) asked the Minister of Public Works-

In view of the need for manufacturers of motor vehicles marketed in Victoria to fit seat belts as prescribed in the Motor Car (Safety) Act 1970-(i) have any manufacturers failed to conform with this Act; and (ii) who is responsible to see that the Act is enforced?


(i) No.

(ii) Members of the Police Force carrying out motor registration duties.

NATIONAL PARKS. CAMP SITE RESERVATION FEES.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) asked the IMinister of State Development-

Is a reservation fee charged for campers in national parks; if so-(i) in which national parks are fees applied, and what is the fee in each case; and (ii) are the fees credited against the over-all fees charged to campers; if not, how are they applied?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of State Development) .-The answer is-

(i) Wilson''S Promontory $4 (Christmas and January); $2 (Easter); Fraser $5; Port Campbell $2.

(ii) No. Site fees are additional to the reservation charge. The reservation charge is applied to persons who wish to preselect a site ata park in advance, thus preventing the unnecessary travelling of long distances, only to find on arrival that no site is available.

CRIMES (INHUMANE PUNISHMENTS ABOLITION) BILL.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North ,Province) .-1 move-


Of all forms of human punishments exacted by the State, nothing is more primitive and degrading than flogging; or, as no doubt one of its most enthusiastic supporters-the Attorney-General-would choose to call it, severe pain inflicted judicially. Pain is inflicted by two instruments of torture known as the cat-o' -nine-tails and the birch, which draw blood from the victim and bespatter those whose duties oblige them to view the gruesome spectacle which now is done in private.

To apprehend this partly infantile and partly sadistic appeal, one need only to imagine the use of the " cat" and birch officially superseded by a more modern device such as an electrical one, for inflicting pain to areas of the body such as the knees, joints or thumbs. Of course, the public would not tolerate this for a moment. Flogging is torture sought to be justified by placing it within the categories of punishment authorized by law. Many people, including myself, thought we had seen the last of it, although it still remains on the statute-book, and indeed, as Chief Justice Sir Henry Winneke reminded the legislature in 1968-1 am not suggesting that these are the words he used-the Victorian statutes still sanctioned what the Age called a legalized brutality. He said that

4278 Crimes (Inhumane [COUNCIL.] Punishments Abolition) Bill.

so long as this section remained on the statute-book it must be taken as being a continuing declaration of Parliamentary intention that whipping is a proper punishment in appropriate cases. Sir Henry Winneke was referring to one particular section, but there are a number of them. On 21st of July, 1968, the Age published the following article :-

The Attorney-General, Mr. Reid, yesterday advocated whipping for people convicted on bashing charges.

As I said, the Attorney-General is an enthusiastic supporter of whipping and is anxious to see ·more of it. The honorable gentleman made this quite clear. The article continues-

Mr. Reid said the courts had power to order whipping in such cases, and the question 'arises whether they are imposing severe enough penalties. He rejected the suggestion that the Government should compensate bashing victims. Mr. Reid said, "This might very well have the effect of encouraging more assaults. While one must feel very great sympathy for the victims, it is doubtful whether compensation would be a satisfactory solution. "

I do not know what other solutions can be found. The Attorney-General said that people disposed to attack others might well take the view that they could proceed with their crimes knowing that the State would look after the victims. The logic of that statement escapes me. If applied generally, victims of road accidents should not be compensated on the ground that it would only encourage more road accidents. Of course the corollary to this is that in order to reduce the road toll all one has to do is to stop compensation for widows, orphans, paraplegics and all other victims of motor vehicles. I have never been able to draw the distinction between injuries that are no less terrible inflicted by a bash artist and those inflicted by the motor car.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Insurance would have to be provided against bashings.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.That is so. Some 30 years ago it was decided that the victims of motor vehicles were in an unenviable plight because probably the assailan ts in the motor vehicles had no money. That was the origin of third-party insurance. The same is true of the basher. But the AttorneyGeneral said, "You cannot provide compensation for the person who has been bashed because that will only be an enoouragement to more crime ".

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-The Bill does not say anything about compensa tion.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-If the Minister moves an appropriate amendm·ent, I shall support it because I have advocated this course for many years; I am simply illustrating the quaint logic of the AttorneyGeneral in his enthusiasm to bring back the lash and the cat-a' -ninetails. I have never understood why the State does not provide compensation for the victims of violence in the sa,me way as it has provided compensation for victims of motor car accidents. I do not know in which countries of the civilized world flogging is used. Britain abolished it in 1948. Several reports were submitted to !Parliament prior to the presentation of the Cadogan report in 1938 before this could be acoomplished. On several occasions since that date, attempts have been made to revive corporal punishment, but these attempts failed.

I have been unable to ascertain in which States of the United States of America corporal punishment is imposed. Possibly, in some State at some time or another within the past ten years, some person has been flogged, but I know of no such cases and I do not know of floggings that have taken place other than in Victoria. A dual flogging was administered in Victoria in 1958, when O'Meally and Taylor were punished by this means and, of

Crimes (Inhumane [24 MARCH, 1971.] Punishments Abolition) Bill. 4279

course, floggings were not uncOommon before the second world war. I have spoken to persons who have been flogged.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-Did it assist in rehabilitating them?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.-So far as I could discover, it did not assist in any way. The Bill is designed to end a barbaric form of punishment. Flogging is a torturethat is the only word which adequately describes it-which is seen as a form of primitive retribution; it is as old as civilization itself. Recourse to degradation in punishment is both foolish and wicked, and its accomplishes nothing. Flogging is not the answer to an increased crime rate; certainty 'Of arrest and punishment provides an answer to the problem. However, certainty 'Of arrest for crimes committed in Victoria must await the establishment 'Of a m'Odern, highly-equipped, efficient and well-paid P'Olice Force. Surely, an efficient Police Force is the first armoury in the battle against crime.

What jurisprudence or arguments can I submit to the House to persuade it to ,amend the law so that the cat-o'-nine-tails and the birch will be thrown away for ever? It may be said that if the lash were used mOore often and ,if the courts were less reluctant to 'Order a whipping, the crime rate would go downwards. Such an approach cannot be supported. Regrettably, and to our shame, no country in the world has used the lash more than Australia has. A scholarly book on the history of torture throughout the ages, written in 1940 by George Ryley Scott, F.Z.S., F.R.A.I. and F.Ph.S. (England), was restricted to members of the medical and legal professions, scientists, psychologists, anthropologists, sociologists, criminologists and social workers in 1940. I d'O not know whether members of Parliament fall into any of the categories to which I referred. Regrettably Australia gets

prime mention in this book, which is not an emotional publication. At' page 202, the author states-

In the early part of the nineteenth century, the scenes of the most heartless floggings, so far as the British Empire was concerned, shifted from the prisons ,and bridewells of England, to the penal settlements of Australia. The exhibitions of cruelty in the Barrack Square of Sydney were frightful in their intensity. And on Norfolk Island, the most notorious spot of all, convicts were lashed into unconsciousness for the most trifling of offences. Sentences of 100 and 200 lashes were everyday occurrences.

"I was once present", says Therry, "in the police office in Sydney when a convict was sentenced to 50 lashes for not taking off his hat to a magistrate as he met him on the road ".

It surprises me that the unfortunate convict was given even a hat.

In the report presented to the House of Commons concerning the infliction of punishment upon the convicts of New South Wales, the following revealing extracts, from the books of the Parramatta gaol, are given. The various orders signify the comparative triviality of the offences in relation to the severity of the sentences.

"Henry Bayne, attached to the Domain party, sentenced to receive 25 lashes every morning, until he tells where the money and property is, stolen from the house of William Jaynes, at Parramatta, by him".

The assumption, of course, was that the victim knew who stole the money.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.When did this occur?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-It occurred in March, 1823.

The Hon. V. T. HAUSER.-Is this really relevant?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I think it is relevant having regard to our shocking history in relation to punishment. No country in the w'Orld should surpass Australia in the field of prison reform, but no c'Ountry lags further behind in this regard. I invite honorable members who dispute my assertion t'O visit Pentridge Gaol-the worst prison in Australia. The author then describes a fl'Ogging but I shall not weary the House with this information because some honorable


members appear to be impatient. The book provides information concerning the terrible punishments that were meted out to people for the most trivial offences. I warn the Hous'e that on 24th April, 1822, for gambling-honorable members who are patrons of the Totalizator Agency Board 'Or who go to the races should take note of thisa man named James Blackburn was sentenced to 25 lashes every morning until he discl'Osed the identity of his co-gamblers. That did not occur so very long ago.

The Hon. 'M. A. CLARKE.-Where did it happen?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-It occurred in Sydney, which, I understand, is still part of Australia!

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-It was not in Victoria.

The Hon. J. W. GA!LBALLY.-No ; as Mr. Clarke knows, at that time we did not have convicts in Victoria other than those brought here from Van Diemen's Land or from New South Wales. Honorable members may recall the murder in the early days of Inspect'Or Price by the convicts at Williamstown.

The PRESIDENT (the HOon. R. W. Garrett).-I hope Mr. Galbally will not allow himself to be distracted too much by interjecti'Ons.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.-I think honorable members should know a little of the history of our own country. After all, the Government takes the responsibility for having prisoners lashed and incarcerating them in gaols and so on. I know that the discovery of minerals and rearing sheep are important topics, but matters relating t'O human beings are equally important. The only treatment that is worse in our history than the treatment of Aborigines has been the treatment of animals, including domestic animals, and native fauna. Of course, a flogging always endears its'elf t'O the Army. Floggings were authorized by the Mutiny Act in 1689 and for 200

years bee-ame a favourite form of punishment. At the close of the 18th century, a court martial had the power to order anything up to 1,000 lashes and, as late 'as 1846, a young man died from the 'effects of whipping, his only crime being that he was drunk. In other words, for this crime, the man was flogged to death. I know these things are hurtful and they may appear to be somewhat em'Otional. I do not want it t'O be said that we have not used the cat-o' -ninetails and the birch enough; these forms of punishment have had a pretty fair run in this country.

I should like t'O quote from some of the authorities and the commissions that have worked on evaluating the use 'Of the lash. I shall deal with the question in a non-emotional atmosphere so that honorable members will know what the authorities say concerning this form of punishment. As long ago as 1843 the Commissioners on Criminal Law-a permanent law revision commi'tteepublished an :interesting seventh report. I commend the British for their constant endeavour to ascertain whether savage punishments were achieving anything. The eo'mmissioners stated-

We think that, so far from extending this species of punishment-that is, flogging-it would be better to reject it. It is a punishment which is uncertain in point of severity, which inflicts an ignominious and indelible disgrace on the offender, and tends, we believe, to render him callous and greatly to obstruct his return to any honest course of life.

I interpolate here to emphasize that if corporal punishment, which this Government adv'Ocates, is a suitable form of punishment, why does not the Government prescribe the flogging 'Of all criminals? Why should this moral purification be withheld from forgers, burglars, bigamists, and some members of the stock exchange who have been committed to pris'On? Why should it be withheld from drunkards, instead of their being subjected to the slow torture of a prison sentence? Applied to drunken


driving which is so. much in the news today, and rightly SD, flogging would be a w·onderful stimulus to cautious thinking foor a motorist reaching for his last drink! Of course, the Commissioners 'On Criminal Law doubted its value.

From my small but significant experience of corporal punishment, I am convinced that people who have been flogged have not been deterred from a life of wrongdoing. The Cadogan report, at page 128, unanim·ously rejected the use of cDrporal punishment.

In 1948 the British Parliament took the step of repealing the laws relating to corporal punishment as a judicial punishment. These laws have not been restored, and rightly so, because the flogging of human beings is recognizably disgusting and obscene. Cruelty is a human appetite that is never so voracious as when it is titillated by righteousness. We are all cruel and violent -we vary 'Only in degree.

The Attorney-General will reaffirm the old ·contention that the abolition of punishment by whipping will be followed by a huge increase in crimes of violence, assaults on women and children, and so on. Almost befDre ,J have resumed my place, statements similar to those which followed my second-reading speech on the Vagrancy (Insufficient Means) Bill will be issued and the right of this House to debate the subject will be questioned. SomeDne from outside Parliament speaks in the name 'Of the Government--

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-That is not a fair comment, Mr. Galbally. The right of debate has never been denied to this House. I shall see that the subject is properly debated. I have always adopted this attitude.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I am grateful to you, Mr. President, for your assurance. Nothing is so impDrtant to honorable members as the right to debate matters

Session 1971.-155

in this House without outside pressure, whether from the Govern~ ment or. anyone else.

With great respect to the AttorneyGeneral, I should add that those people who are conversant with the histDry of crime and punishment are familiar with the type 'Of argument which has been trotted 'Out against the abolition of practically every for·m of torture and cruelty since the days of ancient Rome. The argument used by these people is: If you do this, we will all be murdered in our beds.

It was only 250 years ago that Sir Robert Wiseman advocated the use of the rack and other tortures on the ground that they were necessary for the welfare of society. He said-

Neither does it derogate from the clemency of the civil law, that it seems to deal so sharply with those (against whom there are grounds enough to suspect them of some enormous crimes thereof they are accused, but not evidence full enough to condem them) as to allow such persons to be "set upon the rack" thereby to manifest their innocence by an obstinate denial, or to discover their guilt by a plain confession. For the only ground of this austere proceeding was a great tenderness not to take away the lives of any, but upon most manifest and undeniable proof, and yet with .a care notwithstanding, that for want of such full and clear proof (which offenders through their secret workings would always labour to prevent) offences should not go unpunished, to the endangering of the public peace and welfare of other men.

The Hon. D. G. ELLloT.-He should have been put on the rack.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-It is a nice way of extorting the truth. It is only a little over a century ago that Lord Ellenborough, the Lord Chief Justice of England, in a debate on the abolition of the death penalty for thefts, stated that he-trusted their lordships would pause before they assented to the repeal of a law which had so long been held necessary for the security of public interest, and which he was not conscious had in any instance produced any injury to the community ... In this metropolis, where the retail trade had become so great and so beneficial' to the


ends of commerce, and from whence such a considerable proportion of the taxes are raised, it was the duty of the legislature to protect such property from being plundered. Indeed, were the terror of death which now, as the law stood, threatened the depredator, to be removed, it was his opinion the consequence would be that shops would be liable to unavoidable losses from depredations, and in many instances, bankruptcy and ruin must be the lot of honest and laborious tradesmen.

What a fine Chief Justice he was! I regret to say that Lord Ellenborough's statement did not find a single dissen tien t on the bench.

A century later, on 3rd January, 1939, Sir Reginald Coventry, at Worcester quarter sessions, stated that -if a change in the law occurred-the professional garrotters of Liverpool and Cardiff could look forw'ard to being able to ply their occupation without the slightest fear of being punished in the only way which really appealed to them-the cat-o'-ninetails.

That statement related to a suggestion that whipping should be abolished. Throughout history there have been many notorious instances where the same argument was applied. When the Whipping of Female Offenders Abolition Act became law :in 1820, it was said that it would result in 'an enormous increase in female ,crime. It is sad to reflect that the flogging of women was permitted until 1820. However, those fears were put at rest and there was no increase in the female crime rate. It is the callous indifference of people that overhangs everything in the community. Capital punishment and flogging remain, and people become indifferent to these forms of punishment.

Torture ,and persecution go hand in hand. Hitler was the supreme modern instance of these things. Tn any campaign against cruelty it must be recognized that torture must play no part in punishment by the State. Just as there is nothing in the world more likely to manufacture an habitual ·criminal than the present gaol system, nothing tends to brutalize the community ,more than inhumane punishments.

The Hon. J. W. Galball}'.

The grim, staggering 'record of man's monstrous cruelty and in-humanity is not complete without reference to the shocking punishments, cruelties and killings in the name of the law :in our own land. I exempt from that statement the most inhumane treatment ever meted out to a native race. I refer to what we have done to our Aborigines-a poor, defenceless, nomadic, kindly people.

Uncle Tom's Cabin gave an account of the terrible torture and beatings of slaves in the United States of A,merica, the results of which are evident in the present hostility of the negroes in that country, whose ancestors had been plucked from Africa and taken across the water. However, the history of our inhumanity to our Aboriginal people remains with us. At least the Americans have endeavoured to make amends on their statute-books, but what have we done? We endeavour to place the Aborigines .in factories, with plenty of the white man's poison - alcohol.

This Bill seeks to remove various sections of the Crimes Act, the Justices Act, and the Social Welfare Act which inflict punishments of solitary confinement and whipping. I have been unable to ,find an advocate for solitary confinement. I suppose many people, like the Attorney-Gener.al, are in favour of whipping, but no one seems to have written much about the great benefits of solitary confinement. That wonderful penal reformer, Captain ,Maconochie, was immortalized in a book, Alexander Maconochie 01 Norfolk Island, by Sir John Vincent Barry. As I recall, he was ei ther secretary to the Governor or held some other official position, and then went as Governor to that terrible place, Norfolk Island. He was a marvellous man. and Barry wrote about him feelingly, for


which he was awarded a doctorate frOom the University of Melbourne. Barry s-ays about Maconochie-

He was completely opposed to solitary confinement. "It is vain to talk of ignorant, inert and corrupt minds profiting by their own unassisted reflections. " This attitude led him to oppose the Separate System. Strong views for and against enforced solitude were then voiced by English penal reformers, but no genuinely scientific inquiry was undertaken until over a hundred years later. Quite recently in Canada psychologists investigated what was called dispassionately "the effects of decreased variation in the sensory environment" and which was in plain language the effect upon a human being of shutting him up alone, with no distractions, in a room much more corfortably appointed than a prison cell. The results completely vindicated Maconochie's opinion that deterioration of personality ensues.

Maconochie held strong views about the English penal reformers, who took the view that if a man wete locked up in solitary penance he would repent of his ways and return to the world with a saint-like attitude towards his fellow men. Solitary confinement prOobably led to the creation of more criminals. I am not referring to therapeutic confinement which may be necessary to protect unfortunate persons who have become mentally deranged, or prevent them from doing bodily harm to others. I am seeking to abolish solitary confinement as a punishment.

'Macon'Ochie was a -magnificent penal reformer and anyone reading about him would get the feeling that he was a great man. In his book, Barry refers to a terrible ordeal suffered by a young man named Anderson who was severely wounded in the head during the battle of Navarino. Subsequently he became involved in a street incident and was convicted of burglary and sentenced to seven years' transpOortation to Van Diemen's Land. There, he got into all kinds of terrible trouble and was flogged and beaten unmerCifully-he was gradually being whipped to death. Eventually, he was taken off the

island. He had lost all vestige of humanity and was little more than a beast in human form.

Maconochie had some cattle which were pretty wild, and he asked Anderson to look after them. They were both unmanageable, but the change in this young man was dramatic. 'He worshipped Maconchie and followed him around like a dog. Eventually, Anderson lost his reason and died in hospital before he was 30 years of age. That is one instance of Maconochie's work.

I have received a note from the Parliamentary Counsel indicating that certain words appearing in paragraph (c) of clause 4 will need to be altered. I hope that this can be done at a later stage, but I draw attention to this obvious error in paragraph (c) .

The work of Marcus Clark has not received the attention in Australia that it deserves. I borrowed his book For The Term of his Natural Life from the Library the other night in order to read it again. If there is anyone in the community who can read that book and not cry out against the wanton cruelty and shame of our past, I should like to meet him. 'f.orture, persecution and cruelty should never have any part in our -criminal law. As Maconochie points out, even a man with a vestige of humanity in him still has some spark and can be brought back if he is handled correctly. The House knows my views on crimes of physical violence. I hate all violence, against either man or beast.

I am reminded of the evidence given before a Select Committee in 1838 by the Reverend William Ullathorne, Doctor of Divinity, who is well known in our history. In describing the terrible scenes on Norfolk Island 'One morning, he stated-

As I mentioned the names of those men who were to die, they one after another, as their names were pronounced, dropped on their. knees and thanked God that they were to be delivered from that horrible place,

4284' Vagrancy (Insufficient [COUNCIL.] Means) ·Bill.

whilst the others remained standing mute, weeping. It was the most horrible scene I have ever witnessed. The shame of our past ought to make us recoil from the type of punishment which has done nothing but disgrace the name of Australia.

On the motion of the Hon. V. T. IiAUSER (Boronia Province), the debate was adjourned.


VAGRANCY (INSUFFICIENT MEANS) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 16) on the motion of the Hon. J. W. Galbally (Melbourne North Province) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister without Portfolio) .-The purpose and intention of this Bill is very simple. The sole reason for its introduction is to abolish the offence known as insufficient lawful means of support. The House can be in no doubt as to the motives which have brought about the presentation of the measure. All honorable members realize that it springs from Mr. Galbally's deep social conscience and his personal knowledge of the conditions of the poor and 'Of the underd'Og in general.

Mr. Galbally has made his reasons for presenting the measure very clear. He has suggested that the existing provision in section 5 of the Vagrancy Act is an anachronism which had its origin in a different age; that it makes poverty a crime; that it adopts a concept which is no longer suitable for a modern age; that" it is discriminatory, arbitrary, and oppressive; that it is often abused; that it is used dishonestly as a holding charge; and that it reverses the onus of proof. I trust that I have put Mr. Galbally.'s arguments fairly.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-That is so.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-It is clear that if these charges are true, and if they represent the whole truth, honorable members have no alternative but to support the Bill. If, on the other hand, the charges can be answered fully; if it can be shown that there is a valid and worth-while social purpose and function served by the existing provision , it is equally clear that the Bill should be rejected. There is, of course, a third possibility-that the charges may be true in part yet answerable in part; that the Act ma.y in fact serve a useful function and that this funGtion outweighs the disadvantages~

If that is the conclusion to which the House comes, clearly the present provi"sion should not be rejected without first putting something in its place. It is also clear that if there are any criticisms 'Of substance, the operation of the present provision should at least be re-examined and thought given to whether some change in our social attitude and the law is not in fact desirable.

In researching the measure, I have contacted a number of organizations mentioned by Mr. Galbally. The Hanover Centre has been good enough to supply me with a great deal of information. I am certain tha t Mr. Galbally is well a ware of the great work performed by the former director of that centre, Mr. Alan Jordan, who recently left it to become a research fellow at the La Trobe University. On this subject, Mr. Jordan has prepared detailed papers of extraordinary value, which I understand will shortly be published and advan~e copies of which have been made available to me. In a letter addressed to me last week, the present director of the centre says -

The mere repeal of the vagrancy ~rovisio~s is unlikely to achieve much. EVIdence IS submitted here-the reference is to the documents from Mr. Jordan-that these provisions illustrate and p~rpetuate a system of iiljustice to a relatIvely ineffectual and harmless (if unsavoury) group.

Vagrancy (Insufficient [24 MARCH, 1971.] Means) Bill. 4285

It could be said that that supports Mr. Galbally, but the director goes on to say-

There is also evidence submitted that these provisions and the consequent sentencing act in ·a beneficial way. More important to us in this matter, however, is the evidence that "vagrancy" is an alternative charge to others. Hence its mere deletion would probably not benefit homeless men. The group of charges that relate basically to off~nces against society's sense of propriety need to be replaced with positive provisions and these ought not need the compulsion of the courts.

I also discussed the matter with the Salvation Army.' Mr. Galbally rightly paid tribute to the work of that body in caring for the poor, the destitute, the vagrant and the homeless. Colonel Marion, of the Salvation Army, informed me that that body is concerned about some' aspects of the operation of the present law. It is concerned that a vagrant may be taken into protective custody, as it were, cared for for a while, and then released only to be arrested again within hours or days. The Salvation Army believes that some reconsideration on that score alone is necessary.

The Salvation Army believes that the provision performs a valuable social function in enabling destitute men who are often living in squalor, eating from rubbish bins and sleeping under bridges, to be taken from the streets, brought before a justice and given some care and protection.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Why in gaol? Such a man is not a criminal, is he?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-I shall come to that. I also took the advice of the Chief Stipendiary Magistrate, Mr. Cuthill, on Wednesday last, the day following the explanation of the Bill by Mr. Galbally. Mr. Cuthill felt that he could not do better than supply me with evidence in a case before him that very day which indicated the type of person against whom these provisions are applied.

The man in question had been arrested the previous night when found sleeping on a heap of papers

in a lane in the city. His pockets were full of pieces of old food taken from rubbish bins. It was found that he had 9 cents on him. Questioning elicited the fact that although this man was 40 years of age he had not worked for about eighteen months, except for occasional casual jobs; that he received unemployment benefits; that he lived for two or three nights a week in the Gill Memorial Home or some other such institution; that he spent his benefits on lodging and liquor over those two or three days, and thereafter lived on the streets and scrounged food from rubbish bins. This man was a dead-beat-a derelict. He was sentenced to a term of imprisonment.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-What was the period?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-I shall tell Mr. Galbally, and give the reasons for the sentence. This was the man's third offence of insufficient lawful means of support in less than a year. On this occasi'On, he received two months' imprisonment. He was perfectly physically fit and able to apply for work and accept jobs. Mr. Cuthill, S.M., sentenced him to two months' imprisonment f'Or a third conviction within less than a year.

In May last year he first came before the court on a similar charge. The offence was found proven, but the court did not proceed to a conviction, and he was discharged.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.Who proved the offence? The onus is on the accused. If he says nothing, he must be found guilty.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-That is so. If a man is f'Ound with no m'Oney, destitute in the streets and gives no explanation to the constable or to the court, of course he will be found gUilty. The prosecution proves that he has no money, and that is sufficient.

In this instance, although the offence was found proven, the case was adjourned without a conviction

4286 Vagrancy (Insufficient [COUNCIL.] Means) Bill.

being recorded and the man was discharged in'to the care of the Salvation Army. As Mr. Galbally w'Ould know, this -is a normal procedure when a man comes before the court for the first time on such a charge. Every effort is made to avoid any conviction and to give the person an opportu!1ity to pull himself together, to .recelve care and attention, and assIstance to find employment and pr'Op~r and lawful means of support. I thmk Mr. Galbally will be fair enough to agree with that statement.

However, that did little good, and, on the second occasion, the man was sentenced to fourteen days' imprisonment.

The Hon. R. J. EDDy.-How long afterwards?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-That was some seven months later. The previous background of this man is interesting. He had 4 previous convicti.ons for larcen~ or unlawful posseSSIon; 1 for beIng unlawfully on premises; 3 for assault of one kind or another; 6 for offensive behaviour or indecent language; 2 for drunk and disorderly; 2 for resisting arrest; 2 for wilful damage and 1 for a gaming offence-a long record before he ceased ultimately to work, and before the commencement of the run of 'ch~rges against 'him of being found wIthout lawful means of support.

This gives some indication of the type of person in respect of whom these proceedings are used-quite often they are for the benefit of the person concerned. Any honorable member would admit that a man with a record such as that and wh~ for some reason either refuses to work or is psychologically unable to work-it could be the latter-needs to be taken off the street in some way, and given some care and protection, just as a young person is charged with being a neglected child.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-That is not done now.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-That is S'O; such a person is regarded as a

child in need of care and protection. This procedure in fact serves the same purpose as proceedings in respect of such a child.

I do not think we can accept for a moment Mr. Galbally's charge that this makes poverty a crime. If that were so, every pensioner could claim to be a criminal, for every pensioner in the State would claim that his means were too little. But this section is not used against persons who are merely poor. It is used against persons who are, as Mr. Galbally described them, derelicts or hippies who in fact refuse to work and who live upon the streets.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-What about unemployment benefits?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-The receipt of unemployment benefits is regarded as a lawful means of support. If a person lives or seeks to live within a pension or benefits of any kind, he is deemed to have lawful means of support and cannot be proceeded against under this provision.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLy.-The Act does not define "lawful means of support" ; it is vague, as the High Court pointed out.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-As Mr. Galbally is aware, Bourke and Fogarty's book on the Act explains that sufficient means of support are regarded as those consistent with the normal standard of living of the person concerned. It is clear that a pensioner who seeks to live within his income, meagre though it may be, can never be charged under these provisions.

From recent personal experience, I know that the provisions are certainly not always used against elderly derelicts, and in fact the four examples I have had this year in private legal practice all relate to seventeen-year-old youths. In one case, the youth had hitch-hiked to Adelaide without the consent of his parents and without much money. Upon his return, he was found by

Vagrancy (Insuffici~nt [24 MARCH, 1971.] Means) Bill. 4287

police with goods for the possession of which he could offer no explanation. He was charged with unlawful possession and also with having insufficient lawful means of support. When he came before the court, he was given an opportunity on the unlawful possession charge which was adjourned without a conviction. The vagrancy charge was dismissed upon his parents indicating that they were prepared and anxious to take him home.

The other three seventeen-year-old youths were dealt with together as a group. They had, for one reason or another, left home and had neither sought nor obtained jobs. They were living in a bathing box, had long since run out of money and were using stolen equipment in the bathing box. They were in the company of a man who had a criminal record and who had stolen quite an amount of food which they in fact were eating. All of these youths received a chance. The proceedings against one youth were adjourned and he was sent home to his parents. In the second case the lad went to a farmer who offered to assist him. The local shire welfare worker offered to assist the third lad, and again no convictions were recorded.

I think the House will realize how important it was to stop these youths from living in a bathing box in those circumstances without making any effort to support themselves. While they were so doing they were potential criminals. They were in fact living on stolen food-food which they knew to be stolen. They were, in essence, bludging upon society.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Don't bring that up; the bludgers in society do not all come from the poor.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Any person who looks fair-mindedly at the facts which I have just presented will agree that something had to be done by society to bring about a change in the way of life of those three lads.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Put them in gaol!

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-None of them was in fact put in gaol. The existence of this procedure enabled positive action to be taken to assist them. Even the gentleman to whom I referred as being mentioned in the report submitted to me by Mr. Cuthill, despite a long record, was not put in gaol for his first offence under this section. Even he was given a chance. He was sent to gaol only at a stage when both the protection of society and his own welfare demanded that he be taken off the streets.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-What was the crime for which he was sent to gaol?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-The provision under which he was sent to goal is the one which Mr. Galbally seeks at this time to abolish.

I must admit that I was a little disappointed with one aspect of Mr. Galbally's speech. Early in his remarks Mr. Galbally, in attacking the section, said-

It should be replaced by a more intelligent scheme for redeeming heterogeneous misfits and minimizing their nuisance effects.

I interjected-What is the basis of the scheme Mr.

Galbally has in mind?

Mr. Galbally replied-I shall come to that. Mr. Hunt should be

patient because this is a serious matter. I waited patiently for Mr. Galbally's scheme, but I still have not heard what he had in mind to replace this provision. All he said was-

What is the solution? Surely the proper treatment of these people should be medical, not penal servitude.

That is not a cohesive, comprehensive scheme. Did the three lads to whom I referred need medical attention? Obviously they did not. They needed some assistance to straighten themselves out; they needed to be put in a position in which they would realize that they had to change. I believe the section achieved a valuable result in all of their cases.

4288 Vagrancy (Insufficient [COUNCIL.] Means) Bill.

Merely to assert that the treatment should be medical achieves nothing. 'Mr. Galbally would need to develop a comprehensive scheme of the kind which he envisaged early in his speech but never developed.

Does Mr. Galbally suggest that mediCal treatment should be given only to those persons who voluntarily submit themselves, and that the rest should be allowed to remain on the streets and sleep where they like, perhaps under bridges? Does he suggest, for example, that hippie col'Onies could be established by young people sleeping in the I Alexandra Gardens, by persons who did not work and who had no visible means of providing for their' needs? Does he suggest that these people should receive assistance only when they apply for it? Or does he envisage that some power of arrest should exist to enable the,m to be taken to a medical clinic for examination and treatment? DDes he envisage that this power of taking them to a medical oentre should be enforceable in any way, Dr that there should be no power of detention? I should have thought that when a provision was under attack, as this one was on the ground that it was anachronistic, and when it is shown that it in fact serves a purpose, the person seeking its repeal should produce a concrete proposal to replace it.

The Hon. :M. A. CLARKE.-How many people are affected?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I understand that about 1,000 persons a year gO' to gaol.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-According to the Hanover Centre, about 3,000 persons a year are dealt with by police ,in Melbourne alone. Many persons who, in the ,first instance, are picked up by the police do not go to ODurt at all; they ar'e taken directly to welfare agencies. Many of the persons who do appear before the court are released without conviction to the care of welfare agencies.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY.-Not too many.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT .---'From the figures I have just given and what Mr. Gal-bally said about 1,000 going to gaol, it is. obvious that fewer than one-third in fact go to gaol.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-But they are the same pe'Ople over and over again.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-That is so. There is plenty of repeat business. Mr. Clarke may be interested in what Mr. Jordon 'Of the Hanover Centre said about these people. He said that many of the'm sought to be apprehended, perhaps unconsciously, because they desired the security of prison and the absence of stress, trouble and problems.

The ,Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-:...-Could they not be dealt with as people in need of care and attenti'On instead of as vagrants?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-I agree that it would be possible to adopt a different basis, :but it would be irresponsible toO repeal sectiDn 5 of the Vagrancy Act, which serves a most valuable social function, without first replacing it by another system. In his papers which will soon be published, Mr. J'Ordan proposes an eight-point programme of which I need mention 'Only a few points. He prDposes the retentiDn of the power to' arrest as it exists and also if necessary sanctions to ensure that people will undertake treatment. He also proposes greater use of centres for the treatment and assistance of individuals. I propose to pass Mr. Jordan's papers to the Minister for Social Welfare, who is responsible for this type of activity. I shall invite the honorable gentleman to' examine the proposals made by Mr. Jordan, together with submissions from the magistrates and from the UnderSecretary, who has examined this prO'blem not only in Australia but also in other countries.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Pontius Pilate also passed the buck.

Vagrancy (Insufficient [24 MARCH, 1971.] Means) Bill. 4289

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Nearly three years ago Mr. Dillon found that in San Francisco a zealous AttorneyGeneral--

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Does the Minister know anything about San Francisoo?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-I was about to read from notes supplied to me by Mr. Dillon from his diary dated May, 1968. These notes read, " I was astounded to learn--

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I am not concerned with what Mr. Dillon wrote in his diary. Who is Mr. Dillon? Is the Minister making this speech, or is Mr. Dillon making it?

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Order! I indicated earlier that I should like to hear this measure fully debated. I listened with interest to Mr. Galbally, and honorable members are entitled to hear the fullest possible explanation from the Minister.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-It is not in the Standing Orders that someone's diary should be produced in the House. Honorable members know exactly where you stand on these things.

The PRESIDENT.-Order! I take the strongest exception to that remark and I ask for its withdrawal.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-Very well, I withdraw. However, I point out that a member is not allowed to refer to someone's diary in a debate.

The PRESIDENT.-Order! I know of no reason why any printed matter should not be referred to in any debate, provided that it 'is relevant. Mr. Galbally frequently refers to various text-books and even goes to the classics during debates. I uphold that as being in order and I know of no reason why an extract from a diary or a book should not be referred to provided that the extract is relevant and not too .long.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister without Portfolio).-I had intended to summarize the notes before Mr. Galbally took his objection. Because an over-zealous Attorney-. General had taken steps to abolish a similar section in the law in San Francisco it was found that the hippy population of a suburb in that city was approximately 20,000 and nothing could be done to combat it or cope with it. Up to 2,000 people were ·camping in the Golden Gate park. During week-ends up to 5,000 hippies would sleep in that park. There was no way in which they could be moved on" even though the great 'majority of them, according to the police, were living upon the proceeds of apparent burglaries and larcenies and had no obvious lawful means of support.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY.-What has that to do with Victoria?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-It is an example of the results of the abolition of a provision contained in a similar law without giving thought to what would occur and replacing it by something else. The Government's position on this measure is simple. It will not agree to the repeal of the section unless provision is first made for a more comprehensive scheme. In regard to the suggestion that this section is abused as a holding charge to retain a person in custody during investigations into other matters, I inform the House that the Government is giving consideration to a detailed report by the Statute Law Revision Committee on powers of arrest and this may remove any danger or abuse of this section in the way that has been alleged.

In regard to the suggestion made by Mr. Jordan that there are other means of dealing with this problem which may in the long-term prove more effective, I have already indicated that this suggestion will be referred to the Minister for Social Welfare for examination. Meanwhile,

4290 Geelong Land [COUNCIL.] (Special Grant) Bili.

in the absence of a properlydeveloped scheme, which one would have expected to be proposed by Mr. Galbally, the Governm'ent cannot support the measure.

On the motion of the Hon. M. A. OLARKE (Northern Province) , the debate was ,adjourned.



The Hon. G. L. OHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture ).-1 move-

That this Bill be now read a second time. The purpose of the Bill is to provide for the direct sale to the Shire of Barrabool of its office site in the City of Geelong. The office site is Crown land comprising an area of 1 rood 2 perches at the comer of Moorabool and Balliang streets. The land was temporarily reserved in 1960 as a site for municipal buildings. The land had been previously temporarily reserved in 1883 as a site for a temperance hall. In 1959 the shire council purchased the hall form the Order of the Sons of Temperance by negotia tion, and proceeded to erect a brick office block in front of the old hall.

The council has now advised the Lands Department that owing to rapid development of the municipality, the existing office is too small f'Or its requirements. The council proposes to raise the necessary loans to purchase a suitable site and construct a new administration centre. It desires the freehold of the existing office property to enable a sale to be made thereof to offset the cost 'Of the new centre.

The purchase price of $23,000, to be paid by the council for the land component of the existing office site, is in accordance with' a valuation made by the Valuer-General's 'office in July, 1970. The council of the City of Geelong has no objection to the purchase of the property by the shire.

Clause 1 of the Bill cites the short title. Sub-clause (1) of clause 2 provides that on payment by the Shire of Barraboo'l to the Treasurer of Victoria of the sum 'Of $23,000, (a) the reservation of the land as a site for municipal buildings shall be revoked; (b) the land ~hall be unalienated land of the Crown freed from all restrictions and the like; and ( c) the land may be granted to the corporation of the Shire of Barrabool lin fee simple.

Sub-clause (2) of clause 2 is the usual provision that no liability shall attach to the crown, and the schedule shows the land which is the subject of the Bill. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. R. J. EDDY (Doutta Galla Province) , the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, March 30.


The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-1 move-


The purpose of this small Bill is t'O validate the transfer of assets and liabilities between the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board, the Morwell Waterworks Trust and the newly created Churchill Sewerage Authority in relation to the township of Churchill.

By arrangement with the Government and the Housing Commission in 1963, the water supply and sewerage services in this new town have been installed by the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board as constructing authority.

For purposes of permanent local administration, the· Governor in Council as at 30th June, 1970, extended the waterworks district of Morwell Waterworks Trust to include the township and constituted the commissioners of that trust as the Churchill Sewerage Authority to


manage the sewerage works constructed in the township, again in accordance with the 1963 arrangements.

Even though adequate power exists in both the Water Act and the Sewerage Districts Act fer adjustment of assets and liabilities where waterworks and sewerage districts are varied, it has since been found that the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board dees not have any such power under the Latrobe Valley Act. Enabling legislation is theref.ore necessary f.or the appropriate financial adjustments to be made between the various bodies involved 'in these transfers.

The Bill now before the House has accordingly been prepared to provide for the validation .of the Orders in Council which provide !tor the necessary works to be vested in the Morwell Waterworks Trust and the Churchill Sewerage Authority and for the necessary alteration to the respective district boundaries. It also provides power for the Governor in Council to effect the adjustment of assets and liabilities between all the bodies concerned, including the State Treasury, and for the vesting of the works and adjustment of assets and liabilities to be -made retrospective to 1st July, 1970. Under this arrangement both the trust and the authority will be responsible for the rating of the area transferred as from that same date.

The preamble to the Bill sets out the circumstances which gave rise to the need for enabling legislation. Clause 1 gives the short title to the Bill, and clause 2 will validate the Orders in Council referred to in the preamble.

Clause 3 specifies that all works of water supply and sewerage lying within the 'areas transferred to the Morwell Waterworks Trust and Churchill Sewerage Authority shall be vested 'in those bodies respectively, and clause 4 of the Bill provides power for the Governor in Council to make orders for the

adjustment of assets and liabilities between the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board, the Morwell Waterworks Trust, the Churchill Sewerage Authority and the State. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. D. E. KENT (Gippsland Province), the debate was adjourned.


SNOWY MOUNTAINS ENGINEERING CORPORATION

(VICTORIA) BILL. The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister

of State Development) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

The purpose oOf this Bill is to ·enable the Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation to carry out works in the State .of Victoria oOn behalf of any department or agency or for private organizations.

In June, 1970, the CommoOnwealth Parliament passed the Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation Act 1970. The Act coOnstitutes the Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation to succeed the Snowy Mountains Hydro-Electric Authority as a consulting engineering organization and enables the engineering skill and expertise built up by that authority over a long period of time to continue t.o be used. Under the Act, the corporation is enabled to carry cut work in Australia and overseas for both Government and private organizations. The corporation specializes in water conservation and hydro-electric works, but can bring expert knowledge to bear in many other fields of engineering.

It has already been agreed between the Commonwealth Government and the Victorian Government that the engineering skills and expertise of the coOrporation should be available to State agencies -involved in the construction of substantial capital works. The Commonwealth Act recognizes that the exercise of the functions conferred by the Act is limited to

4292 Snowy Mountains Engineering [COUNCIL.] Corporation (Victoria) Bill.

matters for which the Commonwealth Parliament has power to make laws. The Act does,' however; empower the corporation to perform any of its functions in pursuance of an authority ·conferred by State law. It therefore, follows that the corporation needs to be so empowered by State legislation, and this short Bill has been prepared accordingly.

Clause 1 of the Bill is the short title, and clause 2 contains a number of definitions. "The Commonwealth Act" is defined as being the Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation Act 1970 as amended by the Snowy Mountains Engineering Act (No.2) 1970, and" The Corporation" is defined as being the Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporationestablished by the Commonwealth Act.

Clause 3 sets out the status of the Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation for the purposes of the law in the State of Victoria and states that the corporation shall be a corporation sole with perpetual succession and an approved seal. It shall be capable of acquiring, holding, leasing and disposing of real and personal property and of suing and being sued; and all courts, judges and persons acting judicially shall take notice of the corporation's seal.

Sub-clause (1) of clause 4 'provides that where the exercise by the corporation of a function specified in sub-section (1) of section 17 of the Commonwealth Act-this subsection defines the functions of the corporation-is not authorized be'cause of the provisions of sub-section (2) of that section, or by reason of the Com·monwealth Act being required to be read and construed so as not to exceed the legislative power of the Commonwealth, the exercise of those Junctions by the corporation is within' the limits of the law of Victoria authorized by the Victorian Act.

Sub-clause (2) of clause 4 provides . that the corporation cannot exercise any functions unless it complies with sub-sections (3), (4)

The Hon. V. O. Dickie.

and (5) of section 17 of the Commonwealth Act which lay down the administrative procedures to be followed by the corporation ·before it carries out works~

Sub-clause (3) of clause 4 provides that in the exercise of a function under the authority of the Victorian Act the corporation shall have all the powers conferred on it by the Commonwealth Act as if it were exercising a function under the authority of the Act. I com·mend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, ~arch 30.

MARKETING OF PRIMARY PRODUCTS (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 16) O'n the motion .of the 'Hon. G. L. Chandler (Minister of Agriculture) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. D. E. KENT (Gippsland Province).-The purpose of this Bill is to' amend the Marketing of Primary Products Act 1958 and to repeal the Tobacco Leaf Marketing Board (Appointment of Manager) Act 1966. The measure seeks to afford greater protection to members ,and employees of 'marketing boards.

The amendments in clause 2 clarify the interpretation which is to be placed on provisions of the prindpal Act which relate to votes cast at a poll in connection with the constitution or dissolution of a marketing board to ensure that, in determining the percentage of producers who have voted, and the percentage of votes cast in favour of the constitution or dissolution of a marketing board, only valid votes are to be taken into account.

I believe that this is' a reasonable provision because even though marketing boards are essential to primary industry, and even though it is acknowledged that they have

Marketing of Primary [24 MARCH, 1971.] Products (Amendment) Bill. 4293

performed their functions effectively, many primary producers do not take a particularly active interest in them. From that I suppose it could be assumed that a minority of primary producers could make decisions relating to the ,establishment or the functioning of 'marketing boards; at the same time, however, they are the people who take an active interest in working on behalf of the industry with which they are concerned. I commend those who take a keen interest in improving the organization of boards and in that way improving the marketing of their products. I realize that the organization of primary production is not a subject that is popular in Victorian Government circles. However much Country Party members might profess their belief in free enterprise, they should realize that their survival depends on a form of co-operation between growers brought about by marketing boards.

Clause 3 provides for the payment of premiums on a policy of accident or sickness· insurance effected to insure a member who is a manager of a board and who is not an officer of the Public Service. This is necessary because such a manager takes the same risks as members of the Public Service, particularly when he is required to travel in the course of his duties. The repeal of Division 1 B of Part I. of the principal Act is effected by clause 4. This repeals the provisions in the Act relating to the Maize Marketing Board. Maize is not now grown in Victoria in large quantities.

It is interesting to note tpat the amendment proposed in paragraph (b) of clause 4 empowers the tobacco leaf marketing boards of the three States to finance the purchase of the tobacco crop. It is apparent that financial arrangements must be made to purchase the tobacco crops, if an incentive is to be provided to carry stock over a considerable time until it is marketed. I do not profess to have a great knowledge of the tobacco

industry, and no doubt Mr. Swinburne will enlarge on the tobacco marketing aspects. However, the provisions of clause 4 will provide greater stability in marketing by the acquisition of over-quota production. I believe this amendment will have the support of the growers.

The tobacco industry has faced more difficulties than most other primary industries because of the diversity of its production and the independence of the growers. It is difficult to organize farmers on a cooperative basis, but special difficulties arise when dne considers the producers of tobacco leaf in Victoria. Their organization is to be congratulated on the way in which it has' obtained agreement and orderly marketing.' Members of the Opposition agree with. the amendments and support the Bill.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province). - Measures of this type always concern members of the Country Party because they have consistently supported the establishment of marketing boards. I was a little surprised at the remarks of Mr. Kent when he cast a doubt on whether members of the Country Party were in agreement with the system of marke'ting boards. Probably more co-operatives exist in primary industries than in any other industries. It seems a peculiar suggestion that members of the Country Party, as representatives of primary industries, should not continue to support marketing boards.

The honorable member also said that, generally, farmers did not take sufficient interest in polls that were conducted. Probably the provisions of clause 2 have been brought about, not by any lack of interest, but by over-enthusiasm. The Minister of Agriculture will agree with me that this over-enthusiasm has existed in tobacco-growing areas. I agree with the amendment to sub-section (5) of section 7, which provides that the words " have voted " shall be omitted

4294 Marketing of Primary [COUNCIL.] Products (Amendment) Bill.

and the words "have cast valid votes" shall be inserted. I agree that the person who is in charge of the poll must be protected.

The amendments contained in this Bill are the result of a conference between the Minister of Agriculture and the various primary industries concerned. Experience of the previous election for the Tobacco Leaf Marketing Board highlighted many weaknesses in the Principal Act, and during the spring sessional period an endeavour was made to overcome the fiasco that had previously arisen. New paragraph (ea) proposed to be inserted after paragraph (e) of section 15 of the principal Act is desirable. The manager should be given the same protection that is afforded other public servants under the Workers Compensation Act and insurance cover provided by statutory bodies. Opportunity has also been taken to repeal Division IB of Part I. of the principal Act to abolish the Maize Marketing Board. Victoria was once a major producer of maize, but now production has declined to such an extent that the industry has asked that the board be abolished.

Paragraph (b) of clause 4 inserts a new section 35c in the principal Act and concerns the powers of the Tobacco Leaf Marketing Board. Over the years, difficulty has been experienced in the disposal of all the tobacco crop. As honorable members are aware, the tobacco industry is subject to an Australia-wide quota system. The three eastern State'S of Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria have been granted quotas, which are divided amongst the growers in each State. It is difficult to grow any crop to reach the exact quotas-always a problem exists of a little over-production or underproduction. This problem is not great if Queensland is under the quota and Victoria is over the quota, because the crop is balanced throughout Australia. Difficulties ari'Se when the three leading States produce overquota leaf.

The Hon. I. A. Swinburne.

Unless tobacco is processed, dried and boxed to retain its quality, it will keep for only a short period. If growers produce a certain quantity over their quota, some of the leaf IS boxed and some is not boxed, and it has to be disposed of before it deteriorates. Some of the crop can be disposed of to companies for sale outside of Australia. If the industry is to have security, provision should be made for over-quota leaf, which should not be allowed to peri'Sh. It is a tragedy for any article to be overproduced and then allowed to rot. It should be preserved.

Agreement has been reached between the three States to establish a financial organization with power to buy this over-quota tobacco before it is required by the manufacturers. In many cases the tobacco leaf may be disposed of to the manufacturers ahead of schedule. Further, the industry may process the tobacco leaf in its own right. The tobaccogrowing industry will welcome the provisions of this Bill, which will bring stability to the growers and provide a greater security for those who have spent many thousands of dollars in developing the industry to its present state.

The fear of producing over-quota tobacco has been great, particularly under the share-farming system. The share-farmers are somewhat itinerant; they do not always stay on the One property and frequently the owner must accept responsibility for looking after the tobacco that has been left 'behind. In many cases it has to be left to rot. Once the tobacco is boxed it will ensure that the sharefarmer's interest as well as the owner's interest is protected, and this will produce more unity and co-operation between the various sections in the industry.

The final clause of the Bill repeals the legislation enacted at the time of the crisis in the industry when an injunction was served On the Minister

Marketing of Primary [24 MARCH, 1971.] Products (Amendment) Bill. 4295

and a manager had to be appointed immediately to carryon the functions of the Tobacco Leaf Marketing Board. Provisions of that measure have been incorporated in the principal Act. If for some reason a marketing board lapses the Minister will have the power to appoint a manager to carry out its functions. The Bill, which deals with many matters relating to primary industries and marketing boards, has the full support of the Country Party.



Clause 1 was agreed to.

Clause 2 (Amendment of No. 6304) .

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-This is one of those .pleasant occasions when a Bill meets with universal agreement. I noted, as Mr. Swinburne did, what Mr. Kent had to say. Mr. Kent made it appear that no honorable members except those of the party that he represents were interested in marketing boards. With Mr. Swinburne, I could not let his comment pass, because few sections of primary industry will not agree that I have co-operated with them in connection with this important and difficult Marketing of Primary Products Act.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-The Minister has co-operated not only with the tobacco industry but also with many other industries.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-I thank Mr. Bradbury for his support. This act has not been easy to administer. Whilst Mr. Kent, who is new to this Chamber, may believe that he and his party colleagues have all the virtues in relation to primary industry and this marketing Act, I assure him that there has been great co-operation between all parties on this type of legislation.

The tobacco industry has been a difficult one. As indicated by Mr. Swinburne, when the election took place an injunction was taken out, and consequently I could not appoint the members of the board in accordance with the result of the election. Therefore, no board existed to control millions of dollars worth of tobacco. By agreement between the three parties, a Bill was rushed through appointing a certain man to have all the powers of the marketing board. Mr. Meeking has done a very good job, and his knowledge and experience has been availed of in other States of the Commonwealth.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-I was not a bad judge that night.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-For the record, it was Mr. Swinburne who recommended Mr. Meeking to me. If Mr. Swinburne wishes me to say that, I have no hesitation in doing so.

The Bill meets with the wholehearted approval of all sections of primary industries whose interests are involved. It brings up to date certain matters which have been lagging for many years and on which legal doubt existed. When attention was drawn to them, the Government conferred with the Law Department and other authorities, and those weaknesses have now been overcome.

I hope this industry will progress and become stabilized. Difficulties have been encountered with the Department of Trade. When mention is made of increasing the Australian content of cigarettes, the people who export tobacco to Australia at present proceed to examine what we are exporting 'to them. I am pleased that this amending Bill has been well received, and I am sure it has the wholehearted approval of those persons whose interests are involved.

The clause was agreed to, as was clause 3.

4296 . Justices (Service of [COUNCIL.] . Summonses) Bill.'

Clause 4, providing, inter aliaThe Principal Act shall be amended as follows:-

(b) In Division lA of Part 1. after section 35B there shall be inserted the following section:-

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-1 move

That the following paragraph be inserted to follow paragraph (b):-(c) In section 1 in that part of the table

relating to Part I.~ (i) for the ,expression "Division

IA.-Tobacco Leaf Marketing Board ss. 35A-35B." there shall be substituted the expression "Division IA.-Tobacco Leaf Marketing Board ss. 35A-35c".;

(ii) the expression IC Division lB. -Maize Marketing Board 55. 35c-35D." is hereby repealed.

These consequential amendments have been found necessary by the Parliamentary Counsel, and do not affect the principle of the Bill. If honorable members will examine how this amendment dovetails into the measure, it will be seen that it is necessary.

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as was the remaining clause.

The Bill was reported to the House with an amendment, and passed throug~ its remaining stages.

JUSTICES (SERVICE OF SUMMONSES) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 2) on the motion of the Hon. Murray Byrne (Minister of Public Works) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y (Melbourne North Province) .-The reasons for this measure have been adequately covered by the Minister in his second-reading speech. I can add nothing.

The Hon M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province).-This interesting Bill is designed to facilitate the work of the Police Force in this State by enabling summonses to be sent by post. At

present this is possible in a limited number of circumstances, but this measure widens it to include offences that are not punishable by imprisonment either for a first or a subsequent offence or by a fine exceeding $1,000 in addition to any amounts payable by way of penalties.

An interesting report on the Police Force has been made by Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston. At page 159 of the report he refers to the amount of time that the police spend in serving summonses by way of civil process, and states that the serving of each warrant occupies 78 minutes. The figure given for 1969 of the number of man-days occupied on this duty is 33,514, which is a staggering amount of time that the police spend on serving civil processes. A great deal of this could be done by post. I do not have figures of the number of summonses or the amount of time spent by the police in serving summonses. Of course, it is their duty to serve such summonses when they are in the criminal jurisdiction. This Bill is certainly a step in the right direction.

The statement by the Minister that the Police Force is involved in the service' of a large number of summonses for breaches of certain Commonwealth Acts such as the Income Tax Assessment Act and the Post and Telegraph Act causes me some concern. If the Victoria Police Force is to be employed on Commonwealth work, what recompense is being made by the Commonwealth to the State for providing this service?

My guess is that the Commonwealth Government will provide nothing because it is always reluctant to reimburse Victoria for anything it does. Although the Commonwealth Government was thinking of enacting legislation to enable certain summonses to be served by post, it has not done so. If Victoria adopted a hard attitude on this matter; it would simply cease ,to authorize members of the Police

Justices (Service of [24 MARCH, 1971.] Summonses) Bill. 4297

Force to serve Commonwealth summonses, which would mean a saving of 78 minutes for each summons if we 'can be guided by what happens in the case of civil processes. It would then say to the Commonwealth Government, "You must send the summonses by post or pay us for this service". I suggest that this is a matter that is well worth examining. Possibly, the Government can show the Commonwealth that Victoria has a just case for compensation in relation to the service of summonses.

All honorable members are well aware that the Police Force is undermanned and overworked. The Government has been cutting down on overtime at a time when more police ,are urgently needed on the streets, in road patrols, and to act as protectors of the public against thugs. n seems ridiculous that our police should be engaged on the service of summonses, whether civil or criminal, when they should be occupied on preventing criminal offences and detecting criminal offenders. The Country Party thoroughly supports the Bill.


The Bin was read a second time and committed.


Clause 2 (Service of summonses for certain offences by post).

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-1 am delighted that this small but important Bill has received the unanimous support of honorable members. I agree with both honorable members who participated in the debate and suggested that this amending legislation will remove certain burdens from the Police' Force in respect to the service of summonses. To a degree, the measure answers one of the real criticisms in the report of Sir Eric st. Johnston concerning the problems of extraneous duties performed by the police. Mr. Clarke raised an

interesting point concerning the amount of compensation paid by the Commonwealth to the State. While I am not aware of the exact form of compensation, I understand, as Mr. Clarke suggested, that it certainly does not compensate the State to any real extent.

I understand that the former chief secretary, Sir Arthur Rylah, and the present occupant of the position, Mr. Reid, have entered into negotiations, as have other States, with the Commonwealth for fair and just compensation for work performed by State police on behalf of the Commonwealth. Furthermore, I understand that the Commonwealth at least agreed to pay the normal fees associated with the service of summonses. Of course, as Mr. Clarke would be aware, the payment of fees does not represent adequate compensation because it does not cover the expense of judges, magistrates and courts. While T agree with Mr. Clarke that it would be constitutionally possible for the Government to instruct the police not to handle Commonwealth summonses, the difficulty associated with this course is that the Commonwealth is entitled to set up its own courts. In fact, the Commonwealth has threatened to do this on several occasions in the past. As honorable members are aware, it would not be advisable to introduce in this 'country the dual system of courts, which operates in America.

The Hon. 1. A. SWINBURNE.-In other words, you want peace at any price.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.Mr. Swinburne is not correct. A case is being submitted by the State for fair and just compensation. However, I am also aware of the problems associated with a dual court system.


The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed, through its remaining stages.

4298 Local Government (Further [COUNCIL] Amendment) Bill.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 2) on the motion of the Hon. R. J. Hamer (Minister fOf Local Government) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) .-This somewhat large Bill makes a number of amendments to the :Local Government Act. Like most am-ending Bills of this type, it deals with a number of varied subjects, the first of which relates to the seal of a council. Apparently, some municipalities have encountered problems when certain enterprising businesses have, for their own purposes, and naturally for profit, used the seals of councils in advertising propaganda. Sometimes, action of this type is authorized by the municipalities concerned, but frequently, when no such authority has been given, and councils realize that they have little or no power in the matter, it has been discovered that the persons concerned have c'ontinued to use in their pUblicity a fascimile of the municipal emblem. My party supports the sensible amending provision, which will overcome the problem.

The next clause of any consequence deals with the situation that arises when two municipalities am'algamate or unite. In view of the fact that there is a possibility of certain municipal amalgamations in the near future-recommendations have been submitted to the inquiry into local Government that municipalities should be united under certain circumstances and for various reasons-it is understandable that the legislation should be examined and be brought up to date. It is proposed that when two municipalities amalgamate, the councillors in the smaller municipality can be required to retire in toto on the day appointed for the subsequent municipal election, whereas councillors of the larger municipality may be excluded f.rom this provision. It is

difficult to understand the reason for this differentiation. After all, the councillors who represent the smaller municipality have been elected for the pres-cribed period to represent the ratepayers in their respective wards. Under the existing law, the Governor in Council is not empowered to allow any councillors to remain in office when two municipalities amalgamate. To some extent, there~ore, the proposal in the Bill will relieve the situation and reduce expenditure, but it seems unfair that the councillors of the smaller municipality should be singled out as is proposed by clause 3.

The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON.---It would not be long before they were re-elected as members of the new municipality.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I agree with Mr. Houghton, but I feel that they should continue to represent the area for which they were elected for the full term of their office. If they are elected f.or three years, they should remain in office for that period of time.

The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON.-It could clutter up a council.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-That is correct, but a similar situation could apply to the larger municipality. It is a minor criticism of the Bill. I have no doubt that this whole question was examined because of the pending decisions that will confront the new :Minister for Local Government when the report from the inquiry into the amalgamation of the Melbourne City Council and surrounding municipalities is adopted.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY.-That is rather likely.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I shall not deal with the question in detail whilst the inquiry is still is progress. I have a considerable amount of material and evidence on my desk concerning this question. The next important clause of the Bill deals with the insurance of councillors.

Local Government (Further [24 MARCH, 1971.] (Amendment) Bill. 4299

Apparently, some doubts have arisen whether ,councillors are insured when travelling to and from their homes and to council meetings. I am sure that it was the intention of the legislature that councillors should be covered in such circumstances and the proposal will ensure that in future this coverage is provided.

The office of a municipal councillor is an honorary one which requires much diligent work-often as much work as that perform'ed by some members of Parliament. Councillors receive no remuneration for their work, hence I feel that Parliament should ensure that neither they nor their families should suffer financial loss as a result of an accident in which a councillor is involved in the course of his municipal duties. Although he may not be acting at the direction of his council, a councillor can be called out by a ratepayer to investigate a problem. Perhaps while heavy rain is falling a drain has become blocked causing water to flow onto the ratepayer's property and into his home. If, during an investigation of a problem of this type, a councillor falls and breaks his leg, he should be covered by insurance. After all he is carrying out his duties as a municipal councillor.

On many occasions, councillors must undertake inspections as a result of business being transacted by the council. The inspections are undertaken in the councillor's leisure time. It is doubtful whether such councillors would be properly covered by the amended legislation or by any insurance policy that would be permitted under it. I propose that it ought to be widened, and in the Committee stage I shall move an amendment to that effect.

Paragraph (f) of clause 3, which will amend section 158 of the principal Act, deals with the appointment of building surveyors. At present, apparently the appointment of a building surveyor is not obligatory on

a council and this provision makes it so. The amended provision will apply to the cities of Melbourne and Geelong.

Paragraph (g) of clause 3 will amend section 161 of the principal Act, which requires the Minister's consent to be obtained for the temporary appointment of a municipal clerk for a period exceeding three months, unless a qualified person is appointed on a full-time basis. It would seem that the Minister will be able to appoint an unqualified person during this time.

Paragraph (h) of clause 3 makes further reference to the qualifications of a municipal clerk, or anyone acting in that capacity. To be consistent, it may require an amendment to section 162 of the Local Government Act, which sta tes-

Every person hereinafter appointed as a municipal clerk shall be the holder of a "certificate of competency" issued by the Municipal Clerks Board.

This conflicts with the amendment proposed in the Bill. Perhaps section 162 of the principal Act should be amended by commencing with the words "Except as provided in section 161."

Paragraph (a) of clause 4 will correct an anomaly in section 167 A of the principal Act in regard to long service leave and will place all the employees on the same footing.

Paragraphs (b) and (c) of clause 4 deal with the pecuniary interest of councillors. I have already indicated that the Labor Party will oppose this clause which, in fact, will open the gate wider. I am not happy with the proposal to allow a councillor having substantial commercial interests in a community to attend a council meeting and speak and vote on a matter in which he may receive some gain. The clause provides that if a councillor has a beneficial interest in shares of a company and the total nominal value of those shares does not exceed $1,000, or one-hundredth of the total nominal value of the issued share capital of the company, he may be entitled to vote and speak on a matter

4300 Local.Government (Further [COUNCIL.] '. Amendment) Bill.

in which he may have an interest. Of course, it is difficult to understand what is meant by the term" nominal value" in relation to the shares. .

I have spoken with a number of honorable members and other people outside Parliament who seem to be confused by the words used in the Bill. In fact, what is meant is the face value of a share. If that is so, it may be that the shares are of 10 cents value, fully paid up. On the market these shares· could be worth $10 or $15 each. .

The Hon. F. S. GRIMWADE.-Can the honorable member quote an instance?

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-There are many examples; Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited shares, which I think are paid to $2, are now worth approximately $15 on the market~

The Hon. F. S. GRIMWADE.-They are not 10 cent shares.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I agree, but there are examples of this situation. I am extending my argument to the limit of exaggeration, but a person could have a financial interest of $100,000 in a certain company and still be permitted to speak and vote in a council meeting, provided that his interest was not in excess of onehundredth of the paid-up capital of the company. This position is open to abuse and is discriminatory in its effect. Strangely enough, it is this type of person which the Liberal Government is trying to protect. It is endeavouring to open a gate which will give these people an opportunity to vote· in a council meeting on a matter in whiCh they may have ah interest and thus make it possible for th~m to receive financial benefit.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-If a line is drawn, there must always be such a situation.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I am impressed by the way in which members of the Government party are jumping to the defence of the people to whom I have referred.

Irrespective of their political affiliations, if they should be in that situation they should not be able to vote at a council meeting. It makes no difference whether they are members of the Liberal Party or the Labor Party, or go under the pseudonym of " Independent". .

This provision of the Bill should be rejected. It is a further intrusion into a field which allows people to assist their own financial interests. It will be difficult to convince me that a person will make an honest decision when he is called upon to make a decision on a contract involving a company in which he has a large shareholding, or indeed a company which is in opposition to the company in which he has a large shareholding. It is the intentiori of my party to oppose this clause. I should also like the Minister in charge of the Bill to explain the meaning of the word " nominal" in relation to the nominal value of shares and nominal value of paid-up share capital.

The next provision in the Bill of any consequence is contained in paragraph (e), which will amend sub-section (1) of section 197 of the principal Act, and will provide some pleasure to certain municipal councils experiencing problems relating to signs and hoardings. Sometimes ratepayers fall over the signs, injuring themselves. In the past, those people who placed signs on the footpath had to be caught doing so before a successful prosecution could be launched agairist them. The provisions of the Bill will give councils the opportunity of confiscating such signs and either taking them to the council depot or the local tip. On a number of occasions I have sustained damage to my clothing when trying to pass hoardings which have been placed on narrow pathways.

Clause 5 of the Bill relates to the advertising of by-laws in newspapers, which is a costly procedure under the requirements of the Local Government Act. On occasions these advertisements could cover a double page in the local newspaper, which may

Local Government. (Further [24 ·MARCH, 1971.] Amendment) Bill. 4301

cost several hundred dollars. The principal Act allows the council to advertise the general purport of the by-law, but unfortunately an unfavourable court decision has placed some doubt on this procedure. The amendment will permit the notice to set forth a general description of the subject matter of the by-law, or the purposes for which the by-law is to be made. The amendment will operate retrospectively to 1958. A complete copy of the by-law is always available at the town hall, where it may be inspected.

Paragraph (b) of clause 6, which amends section 249 of the principal Act, requires the council of any subdivided municipality to apportion one-half of the net income of the municipality amongst the subdivisions in. each year in proportion to the amount of general rates received from each subdivision respectively in that year. This sensible proposal was one of the recommendations from the inquiry into local government. However, it could mean that a majority of councillors could tread on a minority of counci1~ lors in some cases, but doubtless this could be left to the good judgement and sense of the people involved. The Governor in Council should not permit this arrangement to continue indefinitely; it should be reviewed from time to time. The proposed amendment will relieve councils of this responsibility and the matter may not come before the Governor in Council agairi. i.d

In the past, ratepayers in a particular section of a municipality who desired to have a separate rate levied took up a petition which was presented to the council. In its wisdom, the council decided whether a separate rate should be levied. This is a useful provision, particularly when certain shopkeepers may wish to be rated higher than nearby ratepayers, perhaps for the purpose of establishing a car park. The procedure is somewhat lengthy, but has been used by most municipalities. On occasions,

due to the length of time, the list of names compiled has become out of date when placed before the council. It would be preferable, as intended under the proviSions of this Bill, to allow the council to act at the request of the ratepayers concerned, or after receiving an indication that the majority of those ratepayers would favour such a proposal. The council could then ini tia te the necessary action, with a safeguard that it must first notify the people so affected.

Clause 10 refers to land which is to be divided into more than two parts. The provisions of the clause enable the council to require a subdivider of land for residential purposes to give to the council 5 per cent of the land for recreational purposes, or alternatively to make an equivalent cash payment. The Bill proposes that councils shall be empowered to impose this requirement in respect of subdivisions for residential, industrial or commercial purposes, which is sensible. One problem experienced by municipalities is that 5 per cent of the land is frequently of pocket handkerchief proportions and of no real value as a recreational area. In such a case, the council prefers to take the money and place it in a fund for the provision of recreational facilities.

Unfortunately, the 5 per cent is based upon the value of the land prior to subdivision, and when the land is subdivided and roads and other facilities are provided the money collected by the council will be of little significance in the provision of a similar area of land for recreational purposes. Accordingly, it is far more expensive for the councils to take a financial contribution based on the value of 5 per cent of the land before subdivision than to receive the land itself. I bring that matter to the attention of the Government because an amendment may be necessary to allow a council to judge the value of the land after subdivision and when the facilities and improvements have been placed thereon.

4302 Local Government (Further [COUNcn..] Amendment) Bill.

Clause 11 concerns a subject upon which many honorable members, and certainly all members of municipal councils, receive many complaints, namely, private street construction schemes. The Bill proposes the appointment of an arbitrator to hear and determine objections to private street schemes instead of the present system of such objections being heard in the Magistrates Court. The clause also provides for a further ground of objection where it is considered that, having regard to the environment, a scheme is unsuitable.

The Minister contended that the appointment of the arbitrator could lead to speedier decisions and lessen the cost involved. I have doubts about this but I shall not comment because I believe the proposal is worth a trial. I t may even take longer to obtain a decision from an arbitrator than it does at present in the Magistrates Court.

Clause 12 inserts a new section 600AA to permit a private street which is a boundary between two municipalities to be constructed as part of a scheme for construction o.f a number of streets. Usually, one municipality or the other is the constructing authority and that municipality will be able to include the boundary road in a scheme. It will not be possible for both municipalities to include the boundary street in their respective schemes. This should have the benefit of reducing costs because to construct the street singly would probably be the dearest method of construction. Undoubtedly, complaints have prompted the Government to introduce the amendment.

Under the provisions of clause 13, councils will now be permitted to include in the cost of private street schemes incidental costs relating to loaming of nature strips and the planting of trees. These works add to the value of the surrounding homes and the cost must be met by somebody.

The Hon. J. M. Walton.

Clause 14 relates to council housing schemes, although there are few, if any, in existence. At present, the Local Government Act empowers councils to provide dwellings for eligible persons, which means persons with an income of less than $1,500 per annum. This is not a large income and, 'at the request of at least one council, the amendment proposes that the Governor in Council shall have power to fix an appropriate income level from time to time.

Under clause 17 which inserts a new Part entitled" Car Parks If, councils will be empowered to regulate the operation of private off-street car parks. This amendment will be particularly applicable to the City of Melbourne and perhaps some of the inner suburban municipalities. In travelling down Bourke Street, many honorable members may have had their progress impeded by a queue of cars outside a car park. The existence of car parks may also create dangerous situations for pedestrians. By allowing councils to control the building and operation of car parks, pedestrians, tho.se who use the car parks, and also other motorists should benefit.

Under the Uniform Building Regulations, councils have the power to require the owner of land on which a building is to be erected to provide a specified amount of parking space. This has been a useful provision in preventing car parking in streets. However, like the other provision relating to recreational land in subdivisions, the owner or builder. may pay an amount of money in lieu of providing parking facilities. The money goes into a fund to provide parking facilities somewhere in the vicinity of the building.

I doubt whether this will work because it will allow business people to get out of providing car parking facilities on their own properties. By exerting pressure on councillors, they may induce a council to accept a sum of money. I believe the existing

Local Government (Further [24 MARCH, 1971.] Amendment) Bill. 4303

provision is sensible, in that it provides for the provision of car parking where it is required, namely, on the site of the building. Under the proposed amendment, it will be possible for car parking to be provided down the street which means that someone using the building will have to walk some distance and also have to pay for" the privilege of parking. I suggest that these people will in future park in the streets if they can find a space.

Clause 19 relates to the compulsory acquisition of land for decentralized industries. Where councils have entered into negotiations or agreement with a firm which intends to set up a decentraliz'ed industry, the council has the power to purchase or acquire a site. Under the amendment, a council will be permitted to compulsorily acquire or purchase land in anticipation of a decentralized industry occupying the site. I believe this amendment goes a little too far.

The amendment proposed to subsection (3) of section 811BA by paragraph (c) relates to rate concessions for tourist activities. The Minister quoted a motel as being an example, and one can understand this argument being extended almost indefinitely. On the same basis, a hotel, a boarding house, or, as Mr. Mansell points out by interjection, a 'laundry could c'Iaim to be associated with tourist activities. A shop which sells souvenirs could be considered as promoting tourism in the State. In the future, municipalities which perhaps in the first instance welcome this new provision will find themselves inundated with applications for rate concessions because the activities are in some way assisting tourism.

Clause 20 amends the Act to relieve a spouse from the obligation of signing a statutory declaration when applying for enrolment on the municipal roll. By law, the matrimonial home is owned jointly by the wife and the husband. It was ridiculous

that the spouse should be required to sign a statutory declaration when seeking enrolment on the municipal roll. This has discriminated particularly against wives because very often a wife is the junior partner of the marriage in relation to the ownership of the property. Under the amendment, it will still be necessary for the spouse to apply for enrolment in respect of the matrimonial home, and because the spouse will be listed on the roll purely as the spouse of the person whose name happens to be included in the rate book, she will be precluded from standing for the council. The Government should examine this aspect.

Finally, the Bill includes an amendment which will control expenditure by candidates in municipal elections. The Labor Party, which favours this proposal, has raised the matter from time to time. I am sure that those who sit on the Melbourne City Council and those who aspire to membership of that council will breathe a sigh of relief when this measure is passed.

The Hon. 1. A. SWINBURNE.-This provision will be as effective as that which applies in the Parliamentary sphere.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I agree that it will require strict control. Those mainly affected win be persons who say they have no party backing them and accordingly will not have a party to spend money on their behalf. In those circumstances, the candidate will have to account for every cent that is spent in the election campaign.

With the exception of the clause which I have indicated, the Labor Party does not intend to oppose the Bill.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (NorthWestern Province) .-Most country municipalities have their monthly meetings either this week or next week. To date, the Country Party has received only a few letters with

4304 . Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY. ] Questions on Notice.

comments from local shires concerning the proposals in this BUL Accordingly, I move-

That the debate be now adjourned.

The motion for the adjournment of the debate was agreed to.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting.

ADJOURNMENT. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE: PRIvATE

MEMBERS' BILLS.


That the Council, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday next.

As all of the private members' Bills are being handled by Mr. Galbally, I suggest to him that it would be desirable for him to be ready to proceed with them next week and so clear them from the Notice Paper as soon as possible. I am not in a position to give an assurance that any further private members' Bills which may be introduced during the current sessional period will be dealt with.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-Certain items await the decision of the Government. For instance, I have discussed with Mr. Nicol the resumption of the debate on The Constitution Act Amendment (Disqualification) Bill, and it was felt that the Bill should not be proceeded with until the Government's intentions are known. I presume that Mr. Campbell will be ready next week to proceed with the debate on' the Labour and Industry (Equal Pay) Bill.

I shall discuss with the Leader of the House the other private members' measures and also the two Notices of Motion standing in my name on the Notice Paper so that there will be no inconvenience to honorable members.


The House adjourned at 6.1 p.m., until Tuesday, March 30.

iltgislatiut . AsstWbly.

Wednesday, March 24, 1971.


QUESTIONS ON NOTICE.

The following answers to questions on notice were circulated:-

EDUCATION. SCHOOLS FOR HANDICAPPED CHILDREN.

Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East) asked the Premier-

1. What role the Government of Victoria plays in financing and standard setting, in schools for children with mental and physical handicaps?

2. What-( a) schools for the physically handicapped-(i) have Education Department teachers; and (ii) do not have Education Department teachers; (b) schools for the intellectually handicapped have-(i) Education Department teachers; (ii) Education Department subsidy; (iii) Mental Health Authority subsidy; and (iv) any other form of Government subsidy; and (c) schools for the emotionally handicapped have-(i) Education Department teachers; (ii) Education Department subsidy; (iii) Mental Health Authority subsidy; and (iv) any other form of Government subsidy?

3. Which of the above institutions received financial assistance in the last

financial year and what amount was involved in each c~se?

4. Whether guarantees of education facilities are provided for children with a handicap?

5. What are the criteria by which the Mental Health Authority agrees to pay subsidy to' educational centres?


1. The Education Department provides in State special schools for children with mental and physical handicaps trained teaching staff; certain general and special furniture and equipment and supplies; direct grants annually; costs of cleaning, lighting and heating where applicable; special transport services; buildings where


indicated below* ( except for some board of management buildings at the Victorian School for Deaf Children).

Education Department services aim at standards providing for each child according to his age, ability and aptitude in so far as this is possible within the limits of available finance, staff, buildings and equipment.

2. (a) Schools for the physically handicapped-

(i) With Education Department teachers: Schools for Deaf Children-Princess Elizabeth Kindergarten for

Deaf Children. *Glendonald School for Deaf Children. *Victorian School for Deaf Children. *Ewing House School for Deaf Children,

Ballarat. *Mornington School for Deaf Children.

(Parent guidance service and services for educable deaf-blind children).

*School for Visiting Teacher Service for Deaf Children.

School for Partially Sighted*Caronbank School for Partially Sighted

Children. Schools for Physically Handicapped

Children-Alfred Hospital. Austin Hospital. Heatherton Hospital. Royal Children's Hospital, Parkville.

Day Special SchoolsMarathon, Toorak ..

*Yooralla, Balwyn. Yooralla, Carlton. Royal Children's Hospital, Mount

Elizm. Shannon Park, Newton.

Correspondence-*Correspondence school tuition and

visiting teacher service. (ii) Without Education Department

teachers: McDonald House Oral School for Deaf

Children. St. Mary's School for the Deaf, Portsea. Royal Victorian Institute for the Blind,

Burwood. St. Paul's School for the Blind and

Visually Handicapped, Kew. (b) Schools for the Intellectually Handi

capped-(i) With Education Department teachers. *Day special schools for mentally handi

capped children at Ballarat, Bendigo, Broadmeadows, Croxton, Fitzroy, Footscray North, Geelong, Mitcham, Montague, Moorabbin West, Ormond.

Institutional special schools for mentally handicapped children-Janefield. Kew Cottages. Pleasant Creek.

(ii) Education Department Subsidy.

- Equipment. Library. Building Special Total. grant. grant.

4762 Ballarat Special .. .. 60 4728 Bendigo .. .. .. 60 4950 Broadmeadows .. .. 100 4679 Croxton · . .. .. 60 3824 Fitzroy · . · . · . 60 4792 Footscray North · . · . I 60 4768 Geelong .. · . .. 60 4871 Mitcham · . .. · . 60 2784 Montague .. .. · . 60 4928 Moorabbin West " · . 100 48460nnond · . · . .. 60 4563 Janefield · . · . .. 60 4431 Kew Cottages · . .. 60 4549 Pleasant Creek · . .. 60

(iii) No ·schools for the intellectually handicapped are subsidized· by the Mental Health Authority.

(iv) No schools for the intellectually handicapped receive any other form of government subsidy from the Department of Health.

(c) Schools for the emotionally handicapped.

(i) With Education Department teachers Institutional Special School-Travan.: core.

$

70 103.69 · . 234 70 · . .. 130 60 246.66 ., 407 70 · . · . 130 60 · . · . 120 60 .. .. 120 60 · . .. 120 60 161.49 5,000 5,281 60 · . 1,215 1,335 70 300.00 1,002 1,472 60 · . · . 120 70 266.09 .. 396 60 · . · . 120 70 .. · . 130

I

(ii) Education Department Subsidy

Equipment. Library. Total. 4465 Travancore 60 60 $120

(iii) No schools for the emotionally handicapped are subsidised by the Mental Health Authority.

(iv) No schools for the emotionally handicapped receive any other form of Government subsidy from the Department of Health.


3.

- Equipment. Library. Building Special Total. grant. grant.

4822 Princess Elizabeth Deaf · . 60 4683 Glendonald .. · . .. 60 3774 Victorian School Deaf .. 60 4834 Ewing House " .. .. 50 4883 Carronbank . . · . .. 50 4757 Alfred Hospital .. .. .. 3605 Austin .. .. .. .. 4982 Heatherton . . · . · . 50 5023 Royal Childrens' Hospital, Park-

ville .. · . .. .. 4676 Marathon .. .. · . 60 4675 Yooralla, Balwyn · . · . 60 4599 Y ooralla, Carlton .. .. 60 4290 Royal Childrens' Hospital, Mount

Eliza .. · . .. 60 4478 Shannon Park .. .. ..

Other expenditure by the Education Department was -included under (b) (ii) and (c) (ii) of answer No.2

4. Provision is made by the Education Department for educable handicapped children within the limits of available finance, staff, buildings and equipment.

The Mental Health Authority cannot grant any educational facilities for children with a handicap. Intellectually or emotionally handicapped children accepted for admission to institutions under the control of the Mental Health Authority participate in educational programmes where such facilities are available and where the children themselves are regarded as educable. Most are not.

5. No subsidies are paid to educational centres by the Mental Health Authority but the Authority does subsidise 38 day training centres and two residential centres for the intellectually handicapped. This subsidy covers the cost of specially trained teachers' salaries and transport costs approved by the Mental Health Authority.

ROAD SAFETY AND TRAFFIC AUTHORITY.

TRAFFIC LIGHTS FOR GEELONG WEST INTERSECTION.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Chief Secretary-

1. When the original requests were received from the cities of Geelong West and Newtown for a subsidy for the installation of traffic lights at the intersection of Aberdeen Street and Shannon Avenue, Geelong West?

$

60 .. .. 120 70 300 · . 430 70 .. .. 130 50 .. . . 100 50 · . .. 100 . . .. · . .. 39 .. · . 39 32 · . · . 82

.. · . · . . . 70 · . .. 130

200 · . · . 260 210 · . .. 270

200 .. . . 260 38 . . . . 38

2. What ·is the es·timated cost of the installation?

3. What subsidy will be available for the installation, when it will be available, and what will be the municipalities' contribution?

4. What are the latest traffic volume figures for this intersection?


1. 29th June, 1967. 2. $12,000. 3. $8,000 in the financial year 1971-72.

Each municipality's share would be $2,000. 4. 16,237 vehicles from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m.

on 29th May, 1970.

POLICE DEPARTMENT. STATIONS FOR NUNAWADING AND

GREENSBOROUGH.


Whether work has been commenced on the construction of a police station to operate on a 24-hour basis at Nunawading ·anda new police station at Greensborough, respectively; if so, what stage has been reached in each case and whether work has now stopped, and in that event, why; if not, when it is proposed that construction will commence?


No. It is expected that construction will commence when plans have been finalized and/or funds made available.


EDUCATION DEPARTMENT.

TEACHING OF ENGLISH TO MIGRANT

CHILDREN.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Education-

1. Whether a specialist language teacher for migrant secondary students has been appointed for the North Geelong area; if so, when the appointment was made?

2. What teaching aids and other facilities are available for specialist language classes and what accommodation is used for this purpose?

3. In the event that a permanent room is not available at a school for such classes, whether he will investigate the provision of a portable class-room?


1. Arrangements are in hand to formally appoint a teacher as from 29th March 1971.

2. A tape recorder, mini-lab, overhead or slide projector may be provided if the Commonwealth provides finance for the purchase of same. Submissions for such equipment have to be made 'at the commencement of each financial year and there must be a teacher engaged exclusively in teaching English to non-English speaking migrant children before such submissions are made.

Sets of situational language books for students and teachers are usually provided.

3. The Commonwealth does not provide finance for accommodation purposes. Temporary arrangements have been made by the Geelong North High School to use a municipal library for migrant language classes. The provision of permanent accommodation is under consideration.

CO-EDUCATIONAL TECHNICAL EDUCA

TION IN HAMILTON DISTRICT.

Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Minister of Education-

1. Whether the City of Hamilton and representatives of the surrounding district have requested the introduction of coeducational technical education to the area for the past nine years and whether 83 grade six girls have indicated that they wish to attend Hamilton Technical School next year; if so; whether he will take steps to bring about the introduction of this type of education to the area; if not, why?

2. Whether the Hamilton High School is grossly overcrowded?


1. Deputations and representations have raised the need for girls technical facilities since 1963.

A deputation to the Director of Technical Education reported that 83 girls would accept technical education if it was available. The need for technical education for girls is recognized in a number of communities of which Hamilton is one. Facilities will be provided in Hamilton when establishment priorities and resources of female staff permit.

2. No.

CASTERTON PRIMARY SCHOOL.

Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland) asked toe Minister of Education-

Whether he will arrange for the repair or replacement of-( a) the public address system; and (b) the asphalt paving, at Casterton Primary School?


(a) The public address system is recorded on our list for replacement in, possibly, three years' time.

(b) A contract has been let for asphalt repairs and it is anticipated that work will commence in approximately two weeks.

PRESTON NORTH EAST PRIMARY

SCHOOL.

Mr. KIRKWOOD (Preston) asked the Minister of Education-

1. Whether a child in attendance at Preston North East Primary School was bitten by a rat?

2. What steps are being taken to exterminate the rats at this school?


1. An infant pupil at Preston North East Primary School claimed that he was bitten by a rat. The complaint was investigated by teachers at the school but as no evidence could be found to support the claim it is thought that the child was mistaken.

2. The rats have been exterminated by a pest control firm.

HIGHER DIPLOMA OF TEACHING:

COURSES FOR ExIT STUDENT TEACHERS.


1. How many exit students from each of the ,teachers' colleges, who had not completed the ten subjects for the Higher Diploma of Teaching, were appointed to schools in each of the years 1970 and 1971?

2. Whether provision has been made for these students to complete their Higher Diploma of Teaching by way of correspondence courses from the colleges?

4308 Questions on [ASSEMBLY.] Notice ..

3. What additional provision will be granted to ,the coUegesin 1971-72 so that exit studet1lts from these colleges can 'complete their higher diploma?


1. Most students were appointed in 1970; exact figures are not available at present. Seventeen situ dents who had not completed the 'ten subjects were appointed in 1971.

2. Yes. 3. No proposed additional provision at present.

CONNEWIRRECOO PRIMARY SCHOOL Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked

the Minister of Education-Whether he has reviewed the situation of

the overcrowding at Connewirrecoo Primary School, No. 1543; if so, what decision has been reached?


A pOI'ltable class-room has been allocated to the Connewirrecoo Primary School and will be provided as soon as possible.

PROPERTY IN WILLIAMSTOWN: Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown) asked

the Minister of Education-1. What plans the Education Department has for the property purchased at 47 Verdon Street, Williamstown? 2. Whether it is proposed to demolish the

propeI'lty or whether repairs will be made to preserve it for possible use as a caretaker's residence?


1 and 2. The residence at 47 Verdon Street, Williamstown, is to be retained for use as a caretaker's residence. When necess'ary reno~ations to the house have been completed the caretaker will be asked to v'acalte the present caretaker residence which will then be demolished.

HOUSING COMMI~SION. HOMES COMPLETED, AVAILABLE FOR

RENTAL, AND SOLD. Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East)

asked the Minister of Housing-In each year since 1960, how many Hous

ing Commission houses in Ithe Melbourne metropolitan area were-( a) completed; (b) available for ren1tal; and (c) sold?

Mr. MEAGH,ER (Minister of Housing).-The answer is-

(a) 1960-61 1961-62 1962-63 1963-64 1964-65 1965-66' 1966-67 1967-68 1968-69 1969-70

678 537 266 547 598 542 590 242 238 385

(b) 'and (c) It is not possible to readily answer the honorable member's question as phrased. Extensive 'research would be necessary to !lscertain the information as houses buillt in anyone year are not necessarily sold in ,that year. In some instances, titles are not ,av:ailable and prospective purchasers are housed on a tenancy basis until such time as' a sale can be effected. During the years in question, applications were dealt with on the follOwing basis:-

1960-61 1961-62 1962-63 1963-64 1964-65 1965-66 1966-67 1967-68 1968-69 1969-70

Tenancy. Sales. 1105 933 1156 696 1281 362 1964 377 1414 660 2183 671 2340 487 2078 402 2182 323 3119 484

WAITING TIME FOR RENTAL HOMES. Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East)

asked the Minister of Housing-What is the average waiting period for a

family with four children seeking to rent a Housing Commission house in the Melbourne metropolitan area?

Mr. MEAGH,ER (Minister of Housing).-The answer is-

Families of under five children in the metropolitan area are normally offered a 3-bedroom flat. The waiting time for such a family is approximately eighteen months.

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. SCHOOL DENTAL SERVICES.

Mr. 'TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Health-

1. What free school dental treatment is provided for students in Victoria?

2. How many dentists have been permanently employed in this service in each .of the past fifteen years and how many pupIls have received treatment in each of the past fifteen years?


Mr. ROSSITER ,(Minister of Health).-The answers are-

1. The School Dental Service in Victoria provides examinati9ns and free dental treatment for children in primary schools, both State and denominational, in some metropolitan and in remote country districts.

2. Dentists employed and the number of children who have received attention in each of the past fifteen years are as follows:

Year. Dental Officers. Children Treated. 1956 35 36,439 1957 36 39,351 1958 34 34,684 1959 38 39,889 1960 34 34,251 1961 38 36,019 1962 36 40,117 1963 31 35,017 1964 32 33,159 1965 35 33,822 1966 33 31,745 1967 33 33,403 1968 33 32,972 1969 34 31,887 1970 35 34,785

DENTAL MECHANICS: TASMANIAN LEGI~LATION .

Mr. LIND (Dandenong) asked the Minister of Health-

Whether a recent investigation has been made by the Government into the operation of the Tasmanian legislation relating to dental mechanics?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of HeaIth).-The answer is-

Yes. It has been noted that since dental mechanics have been permitted to deal directly with the public in Tasmania the number of dentists in private practice in that State has dropped from 68 to 53 although those employed in the Government service have increased from 14 to 31. These are largely employed in the School Dental Service.

The demand for the services of dentists is very high and increasing and despite this and the increasing population, it is practically impossible to attract dentists to that State. Practices are unsaleable.

At the present time there is not one matriculant of a Tasmanian high school who is at present studying dentistry in any Australian university despite an assured position in any quota operating.

From these facts it is a reasonable assumption that the lowering of the status of dentistry in Tasmania by the admission of dental technicians to' "chairside" status has had' a serious effect upon the recruitment of dentists in that State.

VICTORIAN RAILWAYS. STATIONS ON BENDIGO LINE.

Mr. SHILTON (Midlands) asked the Minister of Transport-

What was the reason for closing the Chewton railway station and whether it is proposed to close any more stations on the Melbourne-Bendigo line?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answer 1s-

Chewton station has not been closed and it will continue to get a passenger and parcels service.

As from 6th March, however, no railway staff have been employed at Chewton and the station operates under what the railways term CI no-one-in-charge conditions". This system exists 'at a number of stations throughout the State where there is only a small volume of business.

I understand that there are no plans to close any stations on the Bendigo line.

PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT. PROPOSED BELL PARK TECHNICAL

SCHOOL.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Public Works-

Whether tenders have closed for construction of the proposed Bell Park Technical School; if so, when the successful tenderer will be announced?

Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answer supplied by the Minister of Public Works is-

Tenders have closed for the construction of the proposed Bell Park Technical School.

The successful tenderer will be announced within the next few days. '

MAINTENANCE OF SCHOOLS IN BRUNSWICK EAST ELECTORATE.

Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Public Works---:o

Whether the Public Works Department has recommended that maintenance work be carried out in any primary or secondary

4310 Questions without [ASSEMBLY.] Notice.

school within the electoral district of Brunswick East; if so-(a) which school or schools; (b) what work was recommended in each case; and ( C) whether such work will proceed and, if not, why?

Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The Minister of Public Works has supplied the following answer:-

(a). (b). (c).

(1) Fitzroy High School Repairs to tiles in men's staff Proceeding toilet

(2) Brunswick East Primary School

Repairs to cleaner's residence .. Awaiting Inspector of work's report

(3) Brunswick Central Primary Renovations to residence Proceeding School

(4) Moreland High School Closing of openings in Locker With Education Dept. for rooms approval

(5) Moreland High School Renovations to rooms No.9 Proceeding and 13

(6) Brunswick Central Primary School

Repairs to doors, &C. Awaiting Inspector of work's report

(7) Merri Primary School Repairs and painting Proceeding

(8) Princes Hill Renovations to residence No funds available. Not urgent

PRISONS DIVISION. PENTRIDGE GAOL: EXTENSION AND

RECONSTRUCTION WORK.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister for Social Welfare-

What is the reason for the curtailment of essential extensions at Pentridge Gaol and what effect this will have on plans to reconstruct stage I. of liD" division kitchen, and stage II. of the auditorium in the young offenders division?

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Minister for Social Welfare) .-The answer is

The curtailment is in conformity with the general Treasury directions for the reduction of expenditures.

Construction of a new kitchen at liD" division is still in the planning stage and will not proceed until loan funds for the purpose become available. It alone is expected to cost at least $300,000.

Stage II. of the auditorium in the young offenders division has also been deferred due to the lack of funds, and it is not known at this stage when the work will proceed.

STATE RIVERS AND WATER SUPPLY COMMISSION.

SEWERAGE SCHEME FOR HEYWOOD.

Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland) asked the Minister of Water Supply-

1. When the proposed sewerage scheme for Heywood will be commenced?

2. Whether, in view of the numerous objections to the siting of the treatment plant, he will give an undertaking to move the plant if there is any evidence of pollution of the river at Heywood?

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply) .-The answers are-

1. The Heywood Sewerage Authority was constituted on 18th August, 1970, and shortly afterwards the authority appointed consul ting engineers to carry out the necessary detail surveys and prepare the final plans of the scheme. After completion of these plans the works will be listed for consideration for inclusion in the next annual loan works programme.

2. The site proposed for the treatment plant was chosen as being the most advantageous after careful consideration of all the factors involved, including the effect on the adjacent Fitzroy River. With the proposed method of treatment of wastes and disposal of the purified effluent by irrigation on land, as endorsed by both the Commission of Public Health and the Water Commission, no pollution of the river is expected. On the contrary, the position will be much improved because waste waters from the town which now reach the river will go to the treatment works. No alteration of the works site is envisaged.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE. PRISON SENTENCE.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Has the attention of the Attorney-General been drawn to an article appearing in today's Age stating that a man has served the first month of a 375-day prison sentence imposed on him

Questions without [24 MARCH, 1971.] Notice. 4311

without a hearing and without his knowledge of any proceedings against him; if so, does the honorable gentleman in tend to take action in the matter?

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).-I have asked ,my department for an immediate report on all the circumstances of the case. In fact, I requested this report when my attention was drawn to the article this morning. As soon as it is available I will infor,m the honorable member of the facts of the case.

Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East). -Following the !Attorney-General's answer to the question asked by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, will the honorable gentleman inform the House whether, if circumstances warrant it, he will consider waiving the sentence which has been imposed in this case--

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-The question is hypothetical.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).Following the investigation into the imprisonment of this man, will the Attorney-General ensure that he is released?

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).-I consider that that question is also hypothetical in part. 1 am awaiting a full report of the circumstances of this case. Initially, I wish to check the accuracy of the report which appeared in the press, and until that is done I will make no further statement.

AIR AMBULANCE SERVICE. Mr. JONA (Hawthorn).-WHI the

Minister of Health lay on the table of the Library the file relating to the calling for and accepting of tenders for the ·current air ambulance service contract with the Hospitals and Charities Commission?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The answer is, "Yes".

SENATE COMMITTEE. Mr. LIND (Dandenong).-Will the

Minister of Health supply the names of officers who are giving or who wHI give evidence before the Senate Select Committee on Medical and Hospital Costs of which Dame Annabelle Rankin is chairman?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-1 am not aware that Dame Annabelle Rankin is the chairman of any committee. I think Dame 'Ivy Wedgwood is chairman of the Senate committee to which the honorable member refers. Officers of the nepartment of Health have been invited to appear before it from time to time. 1 ·ask the honorable member to place the question on the Notice Paper.

IMMIGRATION. Mr. FORDHAM (Footscray).-Can

the Minister representing the ·Minister of Immigration inform the House whether the committee which recently travelled overseas to study problems associated with Victorian -immigration intends to prepare a report and, if so, whether the report will be made available to honorable members?

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-I ask the honorable .member to place that question on the Notice Paper.

ALLAMBIE RECEPTION CENTRE. Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Is the

Minister of Social ·Welfare aware that an answer which he furnished to a question ,concerning the progress of work at Allambie Reception Centre is inconsistent with an answer given to a similar question in another place. U so, will the Minister correct that inconsistency?

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Minister for Social Welfare)) .-1 am not aware of answers which have been given in another place. As ,I recall it, in answer to the question I said that I had given no direction for the curtailment ·of any works at Allambie. I have ascertained that day-labour

4312 Questions without , [ASSEMBt Y.] :~ Notice~

work being carried out by the Public Works Department has been temporarilycancelled. Perhaps that -is the answer the Deputy Leader of the Opposition is looking for.

WEEK-END GAOL. Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-Is the

Chief Secretary aware of the weekend gaol system which is operating in New South Wales; if so, is the honorable gentleman prepared to submit a report on that system to the House?

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-I ask the honorable 'member to pla,ce that question on the Notice Paper.

ALLAMBIE RECEPTION CENTRE. Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the

Opposition) .-In answer to a question in relation to Allambie Reception Centre, the Minister for Social Welfare said that work by day labour had been temporarily 'cancelled. What does the honorable gentleman mean by that, and can he inform the House what effect this cancellation will have on the building programme at Allambie?

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Minister for Social Welfare) .-In accordance with Treasury directions, day labour work was cancelled on a couple of projects being carried out by the Public Works Department at Allambie. The work affected -is two new classrooms. I point out that at Allambie the teacher-student ratio is one to eight and this has caused a need for an unusual number of class-rooms. With the high ratio, these two classrooms are urgently needed and the Director-General of Social Welfare has taken up with the Public Works Department and the Treasury the possibility of resuming work as quickly as possible. The Premier has already clarified in the House th~t, although guidelines, have b~en laId down by the Treasury, certaIn areas exist where the Treasury will have to reconsider the guidelines, and this 'is one of those examples. '

WORKS AT WINLATON YOUTH' TRAINING CENTRE.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Can the Minister for Social Welfare inf.orm the House what provision has been made by the Social Welfare Department for the accommodation of 28 girls who would have been accommodated in the building at Winlaton Youth Training Centre on which work has 'ceased?

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Minister for Social Welfare).-The accommodation at Win laton is regarded as adequate at the moment. An almost continuous improvement plan is in progress but again, within the terms of day labour operations, the work has been temporarily shelved.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition).-When the Minister for Social Welfare uses the term "temporarily shelved " does the honorable gentleman mean that work has in fact ceased and that he is unable to give the House any real assuranc:e when it will recommence? If that IS not the answer, will the honorable gentleman inform the House what he means by the terminology he us'ed? ,

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Minister for Social Welfare) .-What I mean by " temporarily shelved" is probably the same interpretation that practically everyone would put on the term. The department does not intend to completely do away with the work that has been started. Financial difficulties are being encountered by every department and the position ,is well known to all honorable members. Day labour. operations haye ~ad to cease pendmg a re-'examInabon of priorities, the outcome of the Premiers Conference on 5th April, and the availability of additional money.

The department will get this project under way ~gain ~s ~oon a~ possible. I hope it wIll begIn ImmedIately, but I am not so unrealistic as t'O expect this to happen. The Leader of the Opposition may be assured that the Social Welfare Department


is doing its best to ensure that all works at institutions administered by the department will be com-, pleted and, where they have been temporarily stopped, rec'Ommenced as quickly as possible.

HOSPITAL FINANCES. Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland).-Has

the Minister of Health considered making m'Oneys available immediately to enable country hospitals to meet their dietary expenses?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health).-As Minister of Health, it is not within my province to make money available in this way. The whole situati'On of country and metropolitan hospitals is being examined in the light of the Treasury guidelines and of the forthcoming meeting of Premiers with the Prime Minister on 5th April.

PARLIAMENTARY LIBRARY STEPS.

Mr. SUGGETT (Bentleigh).-Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to you as Chairman of the H'Ouse C'Ommittee. When will the steps .leading from the Library to the gardens, which were temporarily removed because of the alterations to the facade of the building, be replaced?

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-The honorable member could find that out from the House Committee, but there is no date fixed.

TEACHER HOUSING. Mr. AMOS (Morwell).-Can the

Minister of Education inform the House what provision the Education Department has made for the housing of teachers in country areas?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education).-That is a broad question. The Gavernment made available an additianal $100,000 last year for teacher housing in country areas. At the moment, the Gavernment is in the pracess 'Of setting up the Teacher Hausing Autharity.

Session 1971.-156

Meanwhile, the expenditure of this year's laan maney in this field is praceeding accarding t'O the original pragram,me.

PAKENHAM HIGH SCHOOL. Mr. MACLELLAN (Gippsland

West).-Can the Minister of Educatian advise the House what increased accammodatian will be available at Pakenham High School and whether the Minister will review his decision previausly made ta allaw Glenray High Schaal ta retain 'One 'Of the class-raams intended for Pakenham High Schaal, since the staff at Glenray da nat seem ta appreciate the accommodatian available ta them?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Educatian).-I am interested in the hanarable member's final camment. Hawever, I did guarantee to ·Pakenham High Schoal that the same number of additional portable classraams wauld be pravided as was 'Originally promised. In relation to additianal accammadation and the pravisian of additianal teachers, the Directar of Secandary Educatian is at present carrying out a survey. I understand that a number of pupils cauld be haused at Koo-W·ee-Rup High Schaol and Hallam High Schaal. Weare anxiaus ta determine haw many of these pupils would be prepared to attend thase schools where they cauld retain uniforms baught for Pakenham High Schaal. One 'Of the prablems has been that Pakenham High Schaol is a particularly fine high schaal which has an assembly hall-cum-gymnasium built withaut cast ta the schaal. Its buildings and enviranment in the view of some experts have caused :l greater number 'Of pupils ta stay on far a langer periad and a greater number ta start at the schaal this year than predicted a year ago.

NURSING TRAINING. Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Is the

Minister of Health prepared to reconsider his decisian ta increase the curricula for nurses' training in Victaria fram 1,200 hours ta 1,600

4314 Questions without [ASSEMBLY.] Notice.'·

hours, despite the advice he received from a committee which he established to 'investigate this problem, and in view 'Of the fact that it will cost Victorian hospitals approximately $30 million over the next three years?

Mr. ROSSITER (M'inister of Health).-I am not prepared to reconsider that decision, and I challenge the honorable member to place before me facts t.o support his c.ontention that this review of the nursing curricula will cost $30 million over a period oOf three years.

GLENHVNTLY REHABILITATION CENTRE. .

Mr. DOVBE (Albert Park).-Is .the Minister of Health prepared to recons'ider the decision to discontinue evening clinics at the Glenhuntly rehabilitation centre, which 10'Oks after outpatients who are mentally HI? Will the honoOrable gentleman also countermand the order that drugs are no l'Onger available of an evening at the clinic for those patients who require them?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister oOf HeaIth).-I will examine the matter.

VICTORIAN RAILWAYS. Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the

Opposition).-I direct a questioOn toO the Minister .of Railways, 'Or rather the M'inister of Transp'Ort. Can the Minister inform the House what restrictions have been placed 'On the Railways Service as a result of the recent directive from the Treasury to cut back certain levels of expenditure within his department and whether this has affected any a~pects 'Of the preparation of the plans for Melbourne's underground railway?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister 'Of Transport).-The honorable member's question contains a few pO'ints, but I will do my best with it, although I was addressed by a title which went out 'Of use about 30 years agD. I suppose I sh'Ould pardon the Leader

of the Opposition because after all a l'Ot of the ideas from ·members of the Opposition are much more than 30 years 'Out of date. In regard to the first part of the question which relates to cut-backs, the general situation in the railways is that there is room for improvement in some areas, alth'Ough I am glad to say that the cut-backs which the railways made in w'Orks during the current financial year were made lin December oOf last year and in January of this year. This was done by special arrangement with the Treasury as part 'Of the effort to improve railway finances. As a result of that rearranged programme last !December, the railways in general terms are excluded from the recent cuts. I am reminded by the Treasurer that the original rearrangemen t proposed would have resulted in considerable cut-backs at the Bendigo and Ballarat workshops. Those cut-backs were avoided by 'certain measures that the Government took. Services have not been cut back, other than--

Mr. WILToN.-What about the cuts in train services on the Broadmeadows line?

Mr. WILCOX.-The honorable member for Broadmeadows mentions cuts in trains on the Broadmeadows line which arise from the industrial situation. Let us get it straight; are honorable members going to interject and ask questions?

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! This is question time, and I ask the Minister to address the Chair.

Mr. WILCOX.-Mr. Speaker, 'I shall address you and answer the question, but in endeavouring to do so I am interrupted by interjections on extraneous matters and industrial situations that do not relate to the question. I am not going to let the honorable member for Broadmeadows get away with t~at nonsense.

Questions without [24 MARCH, 1971.] Notice. 431~

Returning to the subject of services, I should like to say that the facts are that services have not been cut back, with this proviso: Quite properly, as is their task, the Railways Commissioners are operating the railways from day to day. Variations are made in services, some of which are ,cut-backs and some of which are advantages. For instance, changes have been made on the Geelong line which have resulted--


The SPEAKER.-Order! I pointed out yesterday that interjections at question time only interrupt the question and answer period and reduce the number of questions. Interjections are disorderly, and I invite the Minister to :ignore them.

Mr. WILCOX.-I was just explaining, in answer to a many-sided question, that from time to time some cut-backs and some improvements are made in the ordinary course of railway business. As a result of an intelligent interest in railway operations at Geelong by Government members whO' represent that district, the Government has made some improvements to the Geelong line.

The ,final portion of the question relates to the Melbourne underground rail loop, and most honorable members are aware that the money which is being provided and set aside for this purpose is completely new money SO' far as any railway operation is concerned. Therefore, ordinary railway funds are not involved. The Treasurer has made it abundantly clear that, as promised in his election speech, provision has been made for the underground rail loop, and it will not only be going ahead; it is going ahead. In the 'current financial year some $400,000 -is being spent on works between Richmond and J olimont.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I ask the Minister of Transport whether there is an acute shortage of drivers

and guards in the Victorian Railways; if so, will the IMinister give the House some reason why this is so?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-A shortage of drivers in the Victorian Railways has not been drawn to my attention. I do not believe there is any shortage of loco~otive drivers, whether they be for dIesel locomotives or electric trains. There is not only a shortage of guards in the physical sense, but also a lack of availability of gllards, because gu~rds are not permitted by their unIOn to work rosters out of a certain order or beyond a certain number of hours. Although the guards are there and could be available to staff some of the trains which have been cut out, they are not permitted, under the rules imposed by the union, to work beyond the allotted time.

Recently and for the first time in my knowledge within a controlled and disciplined union - I refer to the Australian Railways Union - independent industrial action has been taken by one section of the union, namely, the suburban guards. This has caused considerable disaffection amongst the guards. Because the guards have gone out on strike as a section, some of the guards have left the job. They are not prepared to be involved in sectional disputes which are contrary to the normal diSCiplines of the Australian Railways Union.

CONCESSIONAL FARES. Mr. DOUBE (Albert Park).-Can

the Minister of Transport explain to the House why the parents of children who travel on trams are penalized when compared with the parents of children who travel on trains, in that the ooncessional half fare O'n the trains applies to children up to fifteen years of age and the concessional half fare on trams applies to children up to fourteen years of age?

4316 Questions without [ASSEMBL Y.] JVotice.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-If the honorable member wants an historical answer to the question, he will have to put it on the Notice Paper. That there is a discrepancy is a fact of life and it is also well known that the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board has financial problems. However, the Government has recognized that the board has particular difficulties and this year the Government is making up some of the financial discrepancies of the board to compensate it for the concessions made to various classes of people.

Mr. DouBE·-The Minister is not answering the question.

Mr. WILCOX.-In due course if the Government sees fit to further recognize ,the social welfare contribution made by the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board, action may be taken to: bring the concessions into line. 1 stress that the concession fare referred to by the honorable member for Albert Park is only one of many concessions given by public transport in Victoria.

CO-ORDINATED RAIL-ROAD SERVICE.

Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland East). -As the Minister of Transport has praised the co-ordinated rail-road passenger service to Bairnsdale in this House, can the honorable gentleman explain why three railway representatives attending an inquiry into land transport in Victoria yesterday travelled to and from Bairnsdale by car?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-1 am not aware that any railway representatives attended the board of inquiry hearing which was held at Bairnsdale yesterday. However, 1 am quite happy to make inquiries. 1 should think these gentlemen would be acting in line with what 1 have stressed to the railways from time to time, namely, that they

are an important part of transport but they are not the only mode of transport and every mode of transport has its proper place and use in the community.

RURAL RECONSTRUCTION SCHEME.

Mr. CURNOW (Kara Kara).-Can the Minister of Lands inform me whether a proportion of the money handled by the Rural Finance and Settlement Commission in connection with the rural reconstruction scheme is to be used for the retraining of farmers, and, if any of the money is to be used for this purpose, how much is to be used?

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) .-The rural reconstruotion scheme is a Commonwealth s'cheme which is being administered by the States, and under the terms of the agreement no specific amount is allocated for the retraining of farmers. However, the States have offered the Commonwealth their full educational facilities in any scheme which the Commonwealth Department of Labor and National Service may put forward for retraining.

HOSPITAL FINANCES. Mr. A. W. TAYLOR (Balwyn).

Has the Premier's attention been drawn to an article which appeared in the daily newspapers on hospital finance and are the facts stated in the newspapers correct?

Mr. EDMUNDS.-You cannot ask a question like that.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! Honorable members are not only asking questions and answering them; they are also trying to help me give my rulings. The honorable member would be in order if he asked a direct question on Treasury administration.

Mr. A. W. TAYLOR.-!s it a fact that public hospitals are having considerable trouble in meeting their financial commitments?


Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-Of course the answer is "Yes", but there are two sides to hospital finance and an article which I read in a newspaper this mO'rning put only one side. For example, it stated that the expected deficits of the hospitals would be $25 million, but it omitted to give the amounts of accumulated credits of the hospitals at a given date, such as amounts due for outstanding fees. The article also omitted to suggest that there should be an effective stocktaking at hospitals to determine the value of st'ores and medical requisites lying dormant. The article further omitted to state that the position will soon be reached where the public will be unable to' afford to use the hospitals. Since 1966 hospital costs have risen by 63 per cent but community income has increased by only 40 per cent. I shall take the Royal Melbourne Hospital as an example because this was the hospital referred to in the newspaper article this morning. The cost to that hospital for keeping a patient for one week is $245.

Mr. EOMuNos.-That is dearer than the tariff charged by the Southern Cross Hotel.

Sir HENRY BOL TE.-It is. However, the hospital fees are only $70 a week. In effect, a patient at the Royal Melbourne Hospital is being subsidized by '$175 a week and there is little w'Onder that hospitals are in serious financial difficulties. Both the Government and hospital admini~trators are worried about the positIOn. There must be an area in hospital administration in which savings should and must be made. If savings are not made no one will be able to afford to go to hospital. It is perfectly obvious to me, as it should be to everyone, that if hospital costs continue to increase at the present rate further trouble will be experienced. The cost of $245 a week to: which I referred is the average cost of a bed and not the cost of a bed in a private room. For a

private room hospital charges are up to $32 a day but that. does not even meet the average cost of a bed.

Although the Government is reluctant to increase hospital fees it is perfectly obvious that an incre'ase must be made to try to narrow the wide gap between the costs and the fees charged. In the meantime a thorough survey will be made of hospital finances to determine the value of m.edical requisites being carried by hospItals and the debts owing to them. After that survey has been conducted, the Government will be in a better position to assess the whole situation. As I have said, the article in the Age presented only one side of the case and, I believe it was most misleading.

FORESTS (BOWATER-SCOTT AGREEMENT) BILL.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Forests) moved foOr leave to bring in a Bill toO ratify validate approOve and otherwise give effect to an agreement between the Forests Com'mission and Bowater-Scott Australia Limited with respect t'O the establishm'ent 'Of an industry for the manufacture 'Of wood pulp from softwood timber oObtained from forests under the controOl of the Forests Commission, 'and ror other purposes.


The Bill was broOught in and read a first time.

HEALTH (TUBERCULOSIS ARRANGEMENT) BILL.

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health).-I move-

That this Bill be now read a second time. This is the fourth Bill on this subject which has been introduced in the Parliament of VictoOria. The first tuberculosis arrangement dated fro,m 1st July, 1948, and was to operate for ten years. It included a provision that the CoOmmonwealth Government and the Government of Victoria,

4318 Health (Tuberculosis [ASSEMBL Y.] Arrangement) Bill.

prior to the expiry of that period of ten years, should c'Onfer with a view to ,entering into a further arrangement. Similar provisions for extensi'On have been included in aU succeeding arrangements.

A second arrangement, substantially the same as that originally ratified by Parliament, was made on 25th November, 1958, and the necessary legislative authority for its adoption was given on 13th December. 1960, by the Health (Tuberculosis Arrangement) Act 1960, No. 6706. The second arrangement was toO operate for five years to 30th June, 1963. A third arrangement made on 1st July, 1963, and ratified by the Health (Tuberculosis Arrangement) Act 1965, No. 7250, extended the previous arrangement for a further period 'Of a least five years and included a few differences from the former arrangement.

The differences were expressed in clauses 9 and 11 of the Fifth Schedule to the principal Act. Clause 9 stated-

The State shall ensure that attendance at community chest X-ray surveys by the persons to whom the surveys extend is compulsory and effectively enforced. Clause 11 proOvided-

The State shall ensure that there is an adequate number of chest clinics for the control of tuberculosis staffed with sufficient full-time medical officers working under direction of the Director of Tuberculosis.

The most recent arrangement being ratified by this Bill extends the previous arrangement for a period of at least five years commencing on 1st July 1968. Under it the Commonwealth will continue to reimburse Victoria for-

(1) all expenditure of a capital nature approved by the Commonwealth Minister for Health f.or the acquisition of land and the provisioOn of buildings and equipment for purposes associated with the diagnoOsis, treatment and rehabilitation of sufferers from tuberculosis; and

Mr. Rossiter.

(2) all maintenance expenditure in excess of the amount expended by the State of Victoria during the financial year 1947--48.

The amount spent by Victoria in 1947 - 48 was $491,100 and the State must find this amount each year for tuberculosis work. Over the past six years the Commonwealth hasc'Ontributed the following amounts:-

1964-65 1965-66 1966-67 1967-68 1968-69 1969-70

Maintenance. Capital. $ $

2,775,300 3,084,303 3,373,607 3,394,630 3,381,594 3.277,724

307,870 168,559 109,885

10,012 175,361 326,638

It 'is estimated that the amounts received in respect of 1970-71 will be: Maintenance $3,152,600, Capital $163,112.

Clauses 9 and 11 of the third arrangement are also included in this fourth arrangement. Victoria first employed the voluntary system for chest X-ray surveys but after a thorough test over many years it became apparent that surveys were reaching only about half of the adult population and in some areas less than that. The Commonwealth did not regard this as adequate and therefore, as a condition of the arrangement, required the 'Government of Victoria to adopt a compulsory chest X-ray survey system and to include the provision contained in clause 9 of the arrangement. The first compulsory survey was held at Mildura in September, 1963.

Of the 671,194 people who were X-rayed during the 1970 calendar year, there were only 119 cases of possible active tuberculosis discovered. The provisions of clause 11 are quite clear, and since the adoption of the third arrangement in 1965 there has been considerable progress in the establishment of chest clinics ; this has enabled sufferers from tuberculosis whose conditions are

Health (Tuberculosis [24 MARCH, 1971.] Arrangement) Bill. 4319

quiescent to remain at home and be regularly examined to ensure that they can be treated satisfactorily and quickly if their chest condition again becomes infective. The clinics have provided a regular out-patient service for these sufferers from tuberculosis.

The northern suburbs chest clinic located in Bell Street, Coburg, and built at a cost of $200,000, was opened on 19th November, 1965. Because of its central location it has provided a convenient service for many years for persons living in the northern suburbs. The new Prahran chest clinic, built at a cost of $289,500, completed its first full year of operation during 1970 and during that time there were 9,849 attendances and 36 new cases of tuberculosis were reported. During 1971 cases from traditional areas will be transferred from the central chest clinic to the Prahran chest clinic.

Under the arrangement the Commonwealth has agreed to expenditure on a new chest clinic at Geelong at a cost of $143,000. The new building, which is being erected on the corner of Aitchison Place and Little Malop Street, Geelong, is expected to be completed during the latter part of 1971. A chest clinic at the Gippsland Base Hospital, Sale, with accommodation for ten in-patients and with out-patient facilities attached was opened on 7th August, 1970, and patients have been occupying the ward since 10th August, 1970.

The number of beds needed in institutions for the treatment of of tuberculosis has fallen from 744 in 1963 to 496 at present. Because of the improved position, it has been possible to hand over an institution and several wards to various bodies for the care of non-tubercular cases. Patients from Gresswell Sanatorium were transferred to Heatherton Sanatorium in May, 1970. This released Gresswell, an institution of 164 beds, for non-tubercular patients. Twelve beds were also released in recent times from the base hospital at Horsham. At Mont

Park Mental Hospital, one ward of twenty beds previously used for tuberculosis patients was also released for other purposes.

Despite this reduction in the number of beds, there is no waiting time for admission to a sanatorium and it is departmental policy to encourage all patients with active tuberculosis to commence treatment in a sanatorium or a chalet attached to a country public hospital. The average stay of patients in a sanatorium has been reduced from 342 days during the peak demand period in 1952, to 117 days during the year 1970. Over the period from 1948 to 1969, the death rate due to tuberculosis has been reduced from 306.5 per million of population to 17.8 per million, a most dramatic and satis-. factory figure.

Honorable members will readily understand from the foregoing figures that the effects of the injection of Commonwealth money into the State tuberculosis service have been substantial, enabling a considerable improvement in the care of the patient and the adoption of more enlightened methods of treatment as well as the most ·modern techniques. The arrangement that this Bill seeks to ratify will enable the continuation, at comparatively low cost to the finances of the State, of the effective anti-tuberculosis measures now in force. 1 commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. LIND (Dandenong) , the debate was adjourned.


VERMIN AND NOXIOUS WEEDS (AMENDMENT) BILL (No.2).

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) .-1 move-

That this Bill be now read a second time. It provides for two amendments to be made to the Vermin 'and Noxious Weeds Act 1958 No. 6409. The first amendment provides for the appropriate authority to fix the wages and

4320 Vermin and Noxious [ASSEMBLY.] Weeds (Amendment) Bill.

conditions of employment of workmen engaged for the purposes of the principal Act. An inspector is empowered by paragraph (c) of subsection (2) of section 5 of the Act to employ all such persons as are necessary to assist him in the proper performance of his duties. In the absence of any statutory provision, the determination .of certain terms and conditions of employment of these persons has been questioned and the matter should be put in order.

The second amendment is to provide for the ,abolition of the payment of bonuses for the destruction of wombats. The provision for the payment of bonuses for the destruction of certain vermin is contained in section 24 of the principal Act. Honorable members will be aware that the Wombat Bonuses Act 1966 No. 7385 suspended the operation .of section 24 of the principal Act in relation to wombats for the period ending on 30th June, 1969. The Wombat Bonuses Act 1969 No. 7824 and the Wombat Bonuses Act 1970 No. 7956, respectively, continued the suspension for further periods of one year. Under existing legislation the suspension of the payment of bonuses for the destruction of wombats will therefore cease to operate after 30th June, 1971.

The period of three years as authorized by the Wombat Bonuses Act 1966 was regarded as a trial period to enable a proper assessment to be made of the actual damage being caused by wombats. Moreover, in that period it would be ascertained whether alternative methods of destruction were satisfactory. The Vermin and Noxious Weeds Destruction Board was of the opinion that indiscriminate killing of womba ts was taking place deep in Crown and forest lands. This provided a quick return for bounty hunters without any adequate compensating benefit being derived from developed farm lands. The board also

Mr. Borthwick.

considered that whilst the bonus payment of $1 for each scalp was a real incentive to destroy wombats, it doubted whether the bonus really resulted in getting rid of wombats in the right places. The board undertook to carry out fumigation campaigns in areas known to be troubled by wombats.

The 1969 and 1970 Acts were passed to extend the trial period to ascertain whether the adopted system of control, that is by the board's officer giving prompt attention to any landholder's request for control action, could be maintained satisfactorily. From all information now before the board, satisfactory control of wombats can be maintained by this method of treating Crown and forest lands adjacent to productive lands where the landholder so requests.

During the present ;financial year, 295 landholders throughout the infested areas of the State have obtained immediate attention to their requests for control action. At the same time no complaints in respect of wombat infestation have been received either direct by the board or through the primary producer organizations.

In February, 1971, at a meeting of the Central Advisory Council, which consists mainly of representatives of all primary producer organizations and constituted under the principal Act to advise on matters relating to the control and destruction of vermin and noxious weeds, it was stated by such representatives that they supported legislation to abolish bonus payments for the destruction of wombats.

Clause 1 of the Bill cites the short title. Clause 2 inserts a new subsection of section 5 to provide that the wages and conditions of employmentof persons engaged under subsection (2) of that section shall be determined by the Governor in Council on the recommendation of the Public Service B.oard. Clause 3 amends section 24 to provide that

Albert Park [24 MARCH, 1971.] Land Bill. 4321

bonuses shall be paid only in respect of the destruction of any fox or wild dog. Clause 4 repeals section 24A, which section was inserted by the 'Wombat Bonuses Act 1969 No. 7824. 1 commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. GINI'FER (Deer Park), the debate was adjourned.


ALBERT PARK LAND BILL. Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of

Lands) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

Its purpose is to provide for that part of Bridport Street in the City of South Melbourne and abutting the Albert Park Primary School to be closed as a road. It is intended that the land comprised therein be reserved as an addition to the existing state school reserve. The school reserve comprising an area of 1 acre and 20 perches was temporarily reserved in 1873.

The former Methodist Church site containing 1 rood 21-5/10 perches on the opposite side of the said part of Bridport Street is freehold land recently purchased by the Education Department. The Albert Park Primary School is overcrowded and the road closing is sought by the Education Department to satisfy the pressing need for relief. Moreover, the full benefit of the recently purchased land could be gained only if the road were closed and the school site consolidated. The area of the street proposed to be closed is 2 roods 17 perches.

The portion of Bridport Street is zoned "Public Purposes ProposedPrimary school" in the Melbou~ne Metropolitan Planning Scheme. The council of the City of South Melbourne and the :Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works have consented to the closure of the road. The Board of Works and the Gas

and Fuel Corporation have services in the road. The Education Department has agreed to protect the interests of those authorities.

During the latter period of last year and this year the South Melbourne council has assisted the Education Department by closing the road to vehicular traffic during school hours. The council and that department, respectively, have stated that no objection to such temporary closing has been lodged with them. The council's closing has not prevented pedestrians from using the footways. The Education Department has given an assurance that pedestrian traffic through the proposed reserve will be allowed to continue unhindered. The Government considers that the road closing is in the over-all public interest.

Clause 1 of the Bill cites the short title. Clause 2 provides that the land forming the portion of Bridport Street shall cease to be a road. It may then be reserved as an addition to the existing State school reserve. Clause 3 is the usual provision that no liability shall attach to the Crown. The schedule shows that part of Bridport Street the subject of the Bill. 1 commend the measure to the House.

On the motion of Mr. DOUBE (Albert Park), the debate was adjourned.


MELBOURNE UNIVERSITY LAND BILL.

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) .-1 move-


The Crown land vested in the U niversity of Melbourne or reserved for university use at Carlton comprises four areas totalling 47 acres and 189/10 perches.

The original area of 40 acres and 27 perches was set apart for university purposes in 1854 and granted to the University of Melbourne in 1858.

4322 Melbourne University [ASSEMBLY.] Land Bill.

In 1873 an area of 3 acres 3 roods 25 perches fronting Swanston Street was· permanently reserved as a site for a medical school and vested in the university by a Crown grant accordingly restricted. The medical school reserve was increased in 1887 by the temporary reservation of an additional area of 3 roods 382/10 perches. A fourth area containing 2 acres and 87/10 perches was permanently reserved in 1906 as a site for university purposes in addition to the site granted therefor in 1858.

It will be noted that whilst two of the areas have been granted for general university use, the other two have been reserved, one permanently, for the specific purpose of a medical school. The medical school reserves are not now used for such purpose but rather are used for general university purposes in the over-all university complex.

In view of changes in land use, the University of Melbourne desires a grant which would enable the university to use all the Crown land for general university purposes. To give effect to this it is proposed to revoke all the existing Crown grants and reservations and issue a fresh grant in the name of the university for the total acreage. The grant will be restricted in so far as the land shall at all times be used only for the purposes of the university.

Clause 1 of the Bill cites the short title. Clause 2 provides-

(1) that the existing Crown grants shall be revoked;

(2) that the existing reservations shall be revoked; and

(3) that the land shall become unalienated land of the Crown.

Clause 3 provides that the total area may be granted to the University of Melbourne subject to the particular condition that the land shall at all times be used for the purposes of the university.

Mr. Borthwick.

The First Schedule sets out the four areas of land, and the relevant Crown grants and reservations to be revoked. The Second Schedule shows the total land whkh is the subject of the Bill and which ·may be granted to the University of Melbourne. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne), the debate was adjourned.


VICTORIA INSTITUTE OF COLLEGES (AMENDMENT) BILL.

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-1 move-


The major aim of this Bill is to provide for the further expansion of the concept of the Victoria Institute of Colleges. In recent years one of the most exciting developments in education, particularly tertiary education, has been the development of the Victoria Institute of Colleges. Altogether, there are 20 colleges, 15 of which are affiliated with the Victoria Institute of Colleges. The other five, such as the Dookie Agricultural College, the Victorian School of Forestry at Creswick, and the Emily McPherson School of Domestic Science, are non-affiliated colleges. The colleges have a total enrolment of 25,000 students. In recent years these colleges have been training some 60 per cent of the diploma trainees in the Commonwealth.

The Victoria Institute of Colleges aims to provide not only for the further expansion of existing colleges, but for the establishment of new colleges, and it has concentrated on the development of existing colleges. For example, the old Ballarat School of Mines, now the Ballarat Institute of Advanced Education, is moving out to a magnificent site, and the Gordon Institute of Technology has moved to a new site at the Anglesea-Colac Road junction. The Victoria Institute of

Victoria Institute of [24 MARCH, 1971.] Col/eges (Amendment) Bill. 4323

Colleges has been in the process of acquiring a site of approximately 150 acres for the development of the' institute at Warrnambool, and a site of similar size for the Gippsland Institute of Advanced Education at Churchill. In addition, in the metropolitan area, a site of 100 acres has just been acquired beyond Preston to ensure adequate provision for the expansion of the Preston Institute of Technology.

Mr. WILKEs.-Where in Preston is the site?

Mr. THOMPSON.-At Bundoora; the site is just beyond the bounds of settlement, past the Mental Health Authority's land. Planning is on bold lines. This is evident when one considers that the advanced institutes at Caulfield and Swinburne occupy something like 7 or 8 acres between them, and the Government is now a·cquiring something like 100 acres for one institute at Pres'ton in the outer metropolitan area. Largescale expansion has been made possible by the doubling of the total amount of capital available over the recurrent last triennium, an increase from $39 million to $82 million. It is also considered that adequate provision should be made for the establishment of new colleges, and this is the major aim of the Bill now before the House.

Mr. WILKES.-Is it Mental Health Authority land that the Government is taking at Preston?

Mr. THOMPSON.-No; on three occasions exhaustive investigations were made concerning the availability of that land and because three substantial portions of it had been taken by the university, and for a park and a golf course, it was felt that the Mental Health Authority could not be forced to relinquish a further portion of its property.

The main purpose of the Bill can be found in clauses 6, 7 and 9. Clause 6, which amends section 26 of the principal Act, provides for the establishment and the development of new colleges with the approval of

the Minister. By inserting a new secton 29A in the principal Act, clause 7 makes provision for the new council to act as a corpor.ate body, to draw up plans for the development of a new college, and the appointment of a principal and staff. Clause 9, which amends section 36, makes it possible for the acquisition of land, with the approval of the Minister, for the establishment of the new college.

I stress that up until now the large-scale expansions aft Ballarat, Geelong, Bendigo, and so on, have been for colleges already in existence. The aim of this legisla tion is to make adequate provision for colleges yet to be established. That is the essential difference. Clause 3 amends section 7 of the principal Act to provide for the .appointment by the Governor in Council, after a choice has been made by Parliament, of three members of Parliament to the council of the Victoria Institute of Colleges. This is a formal change.

I should like to take the opportunity of thanking those honorable members who have already served with distinction on the council of the Victori.a Institute of Colleges. The honorable member for Balwyn, who has served on the council since j1ts formation, has given splendid service. The honorable Samuel Merrifield gave a tremendous amount of time to the institute, and the honorable member for Benalla, despite the fact that he lives in the country, has been regular and enthusiastic in his attendance at meetings of the council. The honorable member for Moonee Ponds has proved an adequate replacement for the Honorable Samuel Merrifield.

By an amendment to section 8, clause 4 makes it clear that certain people, namely, representatives of the affiliated colleges, who were left outside the eight-year restriction terms of membership, shall conform with this restriction. The existing Act provides that people may not serve for two successive terms of office and clause 4 ensures that the

4324 Victoria Institute of [ASSEMBL Y.] Colleges (Amendment) Bill.

legislation applies to all members, including the group which was inadver.tently left out previously.

Clause 5 repeals section 10 of the principal Act, which deals with the period of office of co-opted members of council. Under the provisions of section 10, a co-opted member can serve on the council only for the period in between the time when members were last elected to it and the end of their four-year term. This could result in the period of office of co-opted members being reduced to some ridiculously short term. The council has recommended that this restriction should be removed and that a co-opted member may serve for a four-year term in the first instance.

Clause 8 inserts a new sub-section (3) in section 34, which provides for the administration of money in the students' loan fund. There is provision in the existing legislation for the Treasurer to grant from an assurance fund built up from the Transfer of Land Act an amount of $20,000 to the council of the Victoria Institute of Colleges to provide loans for studen!ts in poor financial circumstances. In practice, the council of the Victoria Institute of Colleges found difficulty in administering this fund effectively, and felt it would be an improvement if the individual colleges were allowed to administer loans from this fund. In other words, a greater degree of decentraliza tion is beng effected.

Apart from those relatively minor m.atters, it is clear that the major aim of the Bill is to provide for the establishment of new colleges under the general Victoria Institute of Colleges structure. The concept of the Victoria Institute of Colleges to this stage has been successful, and the Government believes that this amending legislation will enable it to make an even more worth-while contribution in the field of tertiary education in Victoria.

Mr. Thompson.

On the motion of Mr. DOUBE (Albert Park) , the debate was adjourned.


APPEAL COSTS FUND BILL. Mr. REID (Attorney-General) .

I move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

The purpose of the Bill is to make certain amendments to the Appeal Costs Fund Act 1964. As the respective matters dealt with in clauses 2 and 3 are unrelated, I shall comment on them as I deal with the clauses of the Bill. Clause 1 contains the usual short title and citation provisions. Clause 2 is designed to meet a difficulty to which the Appeal Costs Board has drawn attention.

The board has found it necessary to refuse applications in cases where an appeal against a conviction for an indictable offence has resulted in the conviction being quashed without a new trial being ordered. Such a situation is not covered by the Act and in the result the accused could be liable for both the costs of the trial and the costs of the successful appeal. The spirit of the Act is that in criminal matters an accused person should, in normal circumstances, be required to bear only the costs of his defence in one completed trial. It is proposed, therefore, to insert in the Act a new section 14c, which will enable an appeal court where it quashes a conviction without ordering a new trial to grant an indemnity certificate in relation to the costs of the appeal.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Sir Edgar Tanner).-Order! There is far too much audible conversation in the Chamber. If honorable members wish to hold what appears to be a committee meeting, they should do so outside the House.

Mr. WILToN.-There are hardly any members in the Chamber.

Appeal Costs [24 MARCH, 1971.] Funds Bill. 4325

The DEPUTY SPEAKER.-Order! I take it that the remark of the honorable member for Broadmeadows was not meant in a derogatory manner and 'that he was not reflecting on the orderly conduct of the House.

Mr. REID.-Clause 3 contains a series of amendments to deal with the situation which sometimes arises, when on the day fixed for hearing of a criminal trial, but before the proceedings have commenced, the trial is adjourned on the application of the Crown, which by reason of an unforeseen emergency is unable to proceed immediately. The Act makes no provision for payment to the accused in these circumstances. Both the Victorian Bar Council and the Appeal Costs Board consider such provision should be made. The Government agrees that the position should be rectified and the clause, therefore, proposes the following amendments to section 18 of the Act:-

(a) The insertion of a new paragraph (d) in sub-section (1) of section 18 which will enable the grant of a certificate to an accused person in the circumstances to which I have referred so that he may obtain a payment from the Appeal Costs Fund.

(b) Two verbal amendments to sub-section (1) of section 18, consequential upon the insertion of the new paragraph (d).

( c) The insertion of new subsections (4) and (5). Sub-section (4) covers the situation where the Crown has advised the accused or his legal practitioners that a date has been fixed for the hearing and the matter is not listed for that date. In these circumstances the accused may incur costs, and the purpose of this provision is to ensure that paragraph (d) of sub-section (1) of new section 18 will apply even though the proceeding has not been formally adjourned by the court.

The new sub-section (5) provides for an application for a certificate in respect of an adjournment to be made

when the matter comes on for hearing. While this is a procedural provision, it is requi'red particularly to cover the circumstances envisaged by new sub-section (4). I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, March 3l.

FORESTS (BOWATER-SCOTT AGREEMENT) BILL.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Forests}.-I move-

Thalt :this Bill be now read a second time.

The purpose of the Bill is to ratify and otherwise give effect to an agreement between the Forests Commission and Bowater-Scott Australia Ltd. The agreement, which is incorporated as a schedule to the Bill, provides for a supply of raw material from the commission's plantations at Beechworth, Bright and Myrtleford to the company which intends to manufacture wood pulp at a plant to be established in the Myrtleford-Wangaratta area. The wood pulp will be transported to the company's existing plant at Box Hill where it will be converted to the company's products.

Bowater-Scott Australia Ltd. manufactures a wide range of toilet and waxed tissue papers at Box Hill for distribution throughout Australia. At present the company utilizes wood pulp imported from overseas, but with the establishment of the wood pulp plant in north-eastern Victoria the imported softwood pulp will be entirely replaced by material emanating from Victorian pine plantations. The successful establishment of the industry will create a local market for softwood timber of smaller sizes from the commission's plantations in the Ovens Valley area. In addition a marketing opportunity will exist for any softwood timber of small size becoming available from private property, from other Government property, such as the Beechworth prison

4326 Forests (Bowater-Scott [ASSEMBLY.] Agreement) Bill.

plantation, from plantations controlled by semi-Government authoritieswater trusts-and from school endowment plantations.

With the objective of establishing an integrated industrial complex in the area, Bowater-Scott Australia Ltd. has purchased one softwood sawmilling business at Bright and is negotiating to buy others. Plans are being prepared by the company to concentrate sawmilling at a central point near the proposed pulp mill to justify the installation of expensive debarking equipment so that the waste from saw and veneer logs can be chipped and utilized for wood pulp. The company plans to invite Australian capital participation in the venture, probably towards the end of this year. The company explained to me that it feels that with current fluctuations in the market it would be wise to have a little latitude concerning the time at which it launches its issue of shares.

The softwood timber to be made available to the company from the commission's plantations will comprise heads and residue from logging operations for veneer and sawlogs, poles and fencing timbers, together with thinnings from developing stands. This will enable the commission to thin out stands on schedule, so maintaining the health and vigour of the remaining trees ; it will also result in a high standard of utilization in the plantations.

Based on the initial royalty, the financial return to the commission from royalties will be in the order of $100,000 annually "in 1974-76 rising at three-yearly intervals to $180,000 in the twentieth year. The agreement provides for a five-yearly review of royalty rates. Consequently, honorable members may expect some adjustment in the figures during the period of the agreement.

The recitals in the schedule set out the purpose of the agreement-that is, to fulfil the need for BowaterScott Australia Ltd. to have a guaranteed supply of raw material for the

Mr. Meagher.

wood pulp industry it proposes to establish within the area of supply. It is necessary to obtain approval by Parliament before the agreement has full force and effect.

The definitions in clause I of the schedule are mainly self-explanatory, but I wish to make specific reference to two of them. Firstly, the areas from which supplies O'f softwood timber will be made available to the company are collectively described as the "area of supply". This is defined as the area within the boundaries of the Beechworth, Bright and Myrtleford forest districts surrounded by a purple verge on the map annexed to the agreement. Secondly, the agreement provides for a "minimum annual supply" of softwood timber, the details of which are set down in clause 13 of the schedule.

Other definitions which may require explanation are " forest area ", "super foot" and "softwood timber." I shall make specific reference to " forest area " when I am explaining clause II. A super foot true volume is 144 cubic inches of solid timber and does not include bark or air space in stacks of timber. " Softwood timber" means timber of the species pinus radiata, pinus nigra, p'inus ponderosa, and pseudotsuga menziesii or Douglas fir, which is also known as oregon. Most of the timber will be of the species pinus radiata which has proved to be the most successful conifer introduced into this State. "Softwood timber" does not include any timber which the commission requires for sale as logs, poles or fencing timber.

Clause 2 is a machinery clause which simply relates to interpretation of reference to other Acts and headings and side notes of the agreement. Clause 3 provides that the agreement does not take effect until ratified by Parliament. Clause 4 provides for the assignment of rights to another company if the prior written consent of the commission has been obtained. The subsidiary or assignee company shall be subject to all the obligations

Forests (Bowater-Scott [24 MARCH, 1971.] Agreement) Bill. 4327

and conditions imposed on the company by the agreement. Furthermore, Bowater-Scott Australia Ltd. remain responsible to the commission for the performance of all its obligations under the agreement.

Part II. of the schedule is headed, II Operation of the Industry", and Division A of this Part relates to the duration of the agreement. Clause 5 of the schedule provides that the duration of the agreement shall b~ twenty years terminating on 31st December, 1992.

Clause 6 is a cc saver of rights and obligations" clause in relation to the expiration or determination of the agreement. Clause 7 protects the rights of licensees and lessees under the Forests Act 1958, or any other Act. Clause 8 ensures that the commission retains the right to sell forest produce to the public, subject to the provisions of sub-clause (1) of clause 11 and clause 13.

Under clause 9 the commission is required to draw up each year a plan of utilization for the next year and a provisional plan for the following two years. The plan of utilization shall specify the locations from which softwood timber will be supplied and the quantities available in each location. Clause 10 is a general' clause requiring the company to comply with the Forests Act 1958 and regulations under the Act.

Clause 11 grants the company the right to obtain softwood timber from the area of supply. The issue of a licence will not be necessary-it is a similar provision to that provided in the Forests (Wood Pulp Agreement) Act with Australian Paper Manufacturers Ltd. and the Forests (Softwood Timber Agreement) Act with A. V. Wehl Industries Ltd. Within the "forest area", which encompasses most of the cc area of supply", the right so granted to the company shall be exclusive. The cc forest area" is that portion of the cc area of supply" which is within 30 miles by road of the Myrtleford railway station.

Clause 12 authorizes the commission to sell softwood timber in the cc forest area" which the company does not want. Three categories are referred to. Firstly, any departmentally produced softwood timber; secondly, thinnings or logging residues; and finally, softwood timber in the forest area made available to the company by the commission in addition to the minimum annual supply.

Clause 13 obligates the commission to make minimum annual supply available to the company. Under clause 25 these obligations are suspended if the commission's plantations are destroyed by fire or disease. The volumes of the minimum annual supply of softwood timber to be made available by the commission to the company are as follows:-

1 million super feet (true volume) in the first year-1973

15 million super feet (true volume) in the next 3 years-1974-5-6






27 million super feet (true volume) in the twentieth year-1992

The commission may make softwood timber available in addition to the minimum annual supply.

Clause 14 sets out the size and quality specifications for softwood timber. Clause 15 defines the price to be paid by the company for softwood timber. If the company produces the softwood timber, royalty only is payable. If the softwood timber is departmentally produced by the commission, the price payable by the company shall be the royalty plus the cost of production and overhead charges. The cost of production shall be determined by agreement between

4328 Forests (Bowater-Scott [ASSEMBLY.] Agreement) Bill.

the commission and the company or failing agreement by the commission on the basis of the actual cost O'f the company for similar timber in similar areas when produced by the company or ilts contractors.

Clause 16 provides that the company shall be bound to take 90 per cent of the minimum annual supply. If it fails to do so it must pay for the deficiency below the minimum annual supply. Provision is made for th.e company to recoup the payment If it obtains an equivalent quantity in excess of the minimum annual supply during the next two years. After the expiration of ten years, the agreement may be modified to vary the 90 per cent level but it shall not be reduced below 75 per cent.

Clause 17 sets down the terms of royalty payment. The commission shall determine the volume of softwood timber purchased and the amount payable. Clause 18 provides the agreement shall include a schedule of royalty rates applicable in each forest district until 31st December, 1975. The rate is 67 cents per 100 super feet true volume under bark for softwood timber obtained from all plantations except water reserve plantation in the Beechworth forest district, where the rate is 64 cents. The latter is the most distant plantation from Myrtleford and attracts a royalty rebate because of the additional cartage distance.

Clause 19 provides for a royalty review ea'ch five years from 1 st January, 1976. vhe new rates shall be as agreed between the commission and the company. In the event that agreement is not reached the new rate shall be calculated in accordance with variations in the indices referred to in this clause.

Clause 20 requires the company to obtain the consent of a forest officer prior to constructing access facilities and the written consent of the commission prior to constructing any building conversion unit or tramway in State forest.

Mr. Meagher.

Clause 21 provides that the quanUty of softwood timber shall be determined on a true volume under bark basis in such a manner as agreed by the company and the commission or, failing agreement, as determined by the comm:ission. If the royalty payable is determined by weight the clause requires the company to install a weighbridge and operate it in 'accordance with the Weights and Measures Act 1958. Such a method is operating successfully at Hardboard Australia's plant at Bacchus Marsh and was provided for in the Forests (Softwood Timber Agreement) Aot 1969 and the Forests (Pulpwood Agreement) ACIt 1959, respectively.

Clause 22 makes provision for the commission to prescribe condi tions which shall apply in areas where softwood timber is being obtained. The ~onditions would cover items such as protection of retained trees from falling or snigging damage, extraction routes, snigging or haulage in wet weather and management prescriptions for watersheds of domestic catchments. The company shall ensure that contractors have notice of applicable conditions.

Clause 23 provides that the company shall keep the commission informed of the names of its servants and contractors and supply proper identification of such persons. The company shall require each contractor obtaining softwood timber tio comply with the Forests Act 1958, regulations thereunder, and the conditions already referred to in clause 22. If a conitractor breaches the Forests Act, regulations or conditions the company shall terminate his contract, on receipt of a request from the commission. The company shall notify the 'commission of the details of each contract issued.

Clause 24 provides that the first three months of the last year of the agreement the commission shall enter into negotiation for a further agreement, if a request has been received from the company to do so and if the commission is satisfied that a further

Forests (Bowater-Scott [24 MARCH, 1971.] Agreement) Bill. 4329

agreement is desirable. When a further agreement has been negotiated the commission shall recommend to the Minister of Forests that a Bill be introduced into Parliament to ratify the new agreement.

Division C of Part II. of the schedule relates to the suspension of obligations. Clause 25 provides for suspension of the commission's obligation to make the minimum annual supply available if the commission's plantations are damaged by fire or disease.

Clause 26 is a saving clause in the event of damage to the company's plant, failure to establish, failure to achieve a certain rate of production, or changes in the economics of the industry which render it impracticable for the company to meet its obligations under the agreement. If the company is dissatisfied with the commission decision on any application made by the company within the terms of this clause then the company may elect to submit the matter to arbitration. The method of arbitration is prescribed.

Clause 27 provides that the commission may determine the agreement if the company enters into liquidation, delays the commencement of commercial production or contravenes or fails to comply with the terms and conditions of this agreement.

Clause 28 provides that the commission and the company may by agreement amend the agreement in detail from time to time and may at any time terminate this agreement upon such terms as they deem fit.

I am happy to explain this Bill to the House. It will be of great benefit in saving Victoria import costs and will assist in the establishment of a new decentralized industry in the north-eastern part of the State. I highly commend the Bill to all honor-able members.

On the motion of Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, March 3l.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MUNICIPALITIES ASSISTANCE

FUND) BILL. The debate (adjourned from March

2) on the motion of Mr. Wilcox (Minister of Transport) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. KIRKWOOD (Preston).-My party does not oppose this Bill. It will be obvious to honorable members who have had experience in local government that the application of the Bill will assist in the provision of local amenities, particularly those of a recreational nature. Rural shires especially are appreciative of this aid, although some may be disappOinted that the minimum subsidy is not to be increased to $4,000. One nagging thought remains in my mind. As a representative of a metropolitan electorate, I wonder why the children in Preston, Collingwood, Coburg and Northcote cannot receive some additional benefits by means of the Municipalities Assistance Fund. The Bill should have included provisions to cover all municipalities throughout the State.

In its bickering with the Commonwealth Government over finance, the main complaint of the State Government has related to tax reimbursements, which have doubled over a period of ten years. If similar treatment had been given to local government bodies in regard to Government subsidies municipalities would have been pleased, because the subsidies to municipalities have practically disappeared. However, the provisions contained in the Bill are a step forward. My party will not oppose the measure, although its provisions could have been· extended more broadly.

4330 Local Government [ASSEMBL Y.] (Municipalities

Mr. BROAD (Swan Hill).-The Country Party approves the measure which is designed to increase the amount of subsidies which may be allocated to municipalities each year from the Municipalities Assistance Fund. As with the added assistance provided by the Government for the provision of libraries and other facilities, this additional assistance will be helpful to municipalities in a difficult time and enable them to continue to assist local communities in the provision of recreational facilities. The money spent over the years on the provision of playgrounds, parks and other recreational facilities has been 'considerably appreciated in country areas.

There is no doubt that local government will need a considerable increase in revenue in the near future in order to ~ontinue to function satisfactorily. ThIS does not prevent me .from voicing my appreciation .for the added assistance granted by the Government, which will mean an increase from $3,000 to $4,000 a year in grants from the fund t'O an average shire.

However, there is one fault in the administration of the fund in that a large municipality receives the same allocation as does a small one, regardless of the revenue of the shire or the number of recreational facilities within its municipal boundaries. Admittedly some recognition was recently given to the disability experienced by the larger shires in that a pool of money was set aside to be used at the discretion of the Minister for Local Government. Although this has gone part of the way towards solving the problem, it has gone only a short distance. It must be remembered that some small shires have only two recreation reserves within their boundaries whilst larger shires such as Wycheproof and Karkarooc each have 13 reserves, the Shire of Kerang 11, and the Shire of Swan Hill has 45 recreation reserves. A large 'discrepancy will be evident which means that the larger shires are at a distinct disadvantage.

Whilst I request the Government to consider this fault in the administration of the MuniCipalities Assistance Fund, I approve the measure before the House.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-Although I support the Bill, it is appropriate that I should comment upon certain aspects of the Municipalities Assistance Fund. The purpose of the measure is to increase from $500,000 to $600,000 the amount of money to be allocated from the Municipalities ~ssi~tance Fund. I remember speakIng In 1967 on a Bill which also related to the Municipalities Assistance Fund and my contribution today will be fundamentally the same as on that occasion.

The honorable member for Swan Hill referred to the fact that the allocations from the fund are unbalanced in the proportion of re~ognition received by larger rural shIres. Victoria has 60 cities, 5 towns, 8 boroughs and 137 shires making a total of 210 municipalities: Before allocations are made from the fund, 43 municipalities, which represent 65 per cent of the State's popUlation of 2.2 million people, are debarred from receiving assistance from the fund. The legislation is clouded in an atmosphere of inconsistency and inequality because those who provide the money receive no recognition whatever.

It may be of interest to examine the purpose of the fund and why it was set up. It is necessary to go back many years, in fact almost to the infancy of State legislation. Naturally, it came into considerable prominence in the early 1930's when the Government of the day realized that many municipalities were in strained circumstances and, in order to maintain a continuity of employment in municipalities, the Government allocated certain funds. The Victorian Year Book 1970, at page 236, refers to municipal endowment for the more needy municipalities and the fact that it was paid almost

Assistance Fund) [24 MARCH, 1971.] Bill. 4331

from the inception of Local Government in Victoria until the onset of the depression. It states further-

Subsequently, unemployment relief grants were made annually for a number of years for vanous municipal works, and, since the second world war, an amount (currently $500,000) is provided annually towards the cost of works of municipalities and other public bodies. In 1950, the Municipalities and Other Authorities Finances Act put this arrangement on a permanent basis.

All honorable members know that the revenue needed to finance the fund came from motor drivers' licence fees. The Year Book also states-

From 1st January, 1965, the fee for a motor driver's licence was increased from $3 to $6 (licence current for a three-year period) by the Motor Car (Fines and Drivers' Licence Fees) Act 1964 and, as the whole of this increase was payable to Consolidated Revenue, the Act provided that henceforth one quarter of the amount collected from such licences, less the cost of collection, was to be paid to the Municipalities Assistance Fund.

When I spoke on this subject in 1967, I bought a fight with my friends in the Country Party. I suggest that country areas get more than a fair share of the money from this fund. The Year Book refers to the fact that municipalities receive a contribution towards the establishment and improvement of sporting grounds, toilet blocks and so on. The report goes on to say that payments are made from the fund, first, towards the cost of works of municipalities and other public bodies, and secondly, towards the annual cost of the Country Fire Authority in order to relieve country municipalities of the contribution to that body which they were formerly required to make. In other words, country municipalities are very favourably treated.

In this regard, members of the Country Party should ascertain the contributions by metropolitan municipalities to the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board. They will find that the amount has reached staggering proportions. Metropolitan municipalities not only carry the cross of the metropolis but they carry the cross of the rural municipalities as well, and in that regard do a very fine job.

I should not like my Country Party colleagues to think that I am discrediting the administration of the Local Government Act by country municipalities. I believe that they do a fine job. However, I make these comments to indicate how the administrati'On of 'the 1iund is unbalanced. If any ratepayer in the State' were asked what was meant by the" Municipalities Ass'i'stance Fund" he wou'ld naturally think that. the Government was assisting every municipality within the State. However, northing could be further from the truth.

In introdUCing the Budget for 1970-71 on 29th September, 1970, the Premier and Treasurer said-

An amending Bill will shortly be placed before the House to increase from $500,000 to $600,000 the annual amount which is available for distribution from the Municipalities Assistance Fund to councHs outside the metropolitan area on a $2 for $1 basis for the construction and improvement of recreational facilities, including the provision of pavilions and toilet blocks.

I applaud the Government on its recognition in the past of the necessHy f'Or assisting in the provisi'On of recreational facil'i'ties for the younger p e'Op Ie of the State. I honestly believe i1:hat the fund 'c'ould be used for another specific purpose. Th'e Government could conduct a thorough investigati'on into the utilizati'On of the fund in providing a benefit for another sec:ti'On of the c'Omm'unity, namely, the pensi'Oners.

The Governm'ent could make a gesture by making ava'ilable from this fund m'Oney to subs'idize muni'cipali'ties who are prepared t'O utilize section 297 of the Local Government Act Ito relieve the terrible burdens carried by the aged pe'Ople of thi'S State. I am sure that many municipalities within Ithe metropo'li's and in country areas, if they were n'Ot restricted by limited finance, would implement the provisions of that section of the Local Government Act to remit in whole or in part the rates of aged pensioners.

4332 Local Government [ASSEMBLY.] (Municipalities

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-I cannot find any reference in the Bill to thwt subject. I sh'Ould like the honorable member to indlicate a reference in the Bill.

Mr. MUTTON.-The Municipalities Assistance Fund was originally established for the purpose 'Of assis1ting needy mun1'cipali'ties and I am requesting the Government 'to c'Onsider the possibility 'Of the utiliza'ti'On 'Of the fund towards assi'stting--

The SPEAKER.-Order! I draw the attention 'Of the hon'Orable member for C'Oburg to something I am sure he is aware of. This is mer~ly an amending Bill and it is not permissible to discuss the principal Act widely.

Mr. MUTTON.-I thank you for your guidance, Sir, but I made a contributi'On in a similar vein in 1967, and I thought I was justified in adopting the same approach in relation to this Bill.

The SPEAKER.-Order! I have given my rulling.

Mr. MUTTON.-I support the Bill and I trust that the Government, and par.ticularly members 'of the Country Party, have n'oted my remarks, because I consider that the present legislati'On is unbalanced and inc'Onsistent in its impact upon municipalities.

Mr. DUNsTAN.-Why do you support it?

l\1r MUTTON.-I have to do so because it goes part of the way towards what I desire, that is, that all municipalities-not only 167 of them -shall receive assistance from the fund. At present 167 municipalities receive assistance and 43 municipalities do not. Why?

Mr. B. J. EVANs.-Because they have got everything anyway.

Mr. MUTION.-The honorable member suggests that metropolitan municipalities have everything, but I consider that they have little indeed. If the honorable member were to investigate the problems of local government in general he would find that

my view was justified. As a matter of fact, the Government realizes the difficulties confronting municipalities today, as was evidenced by the reply which I received to a question which I asked recently of the Premier and Treasurer.

My question was-Whether, at the next Premiers Confer

ence, he would be prepared to request that the Commonwealth Government set up an appropriate committee of inquiry to consider all aspects of Federal, State and local government finance, having in mind that local government should recei~e at least some share of the Commonwealth's uniform taxation revenue and so confer some benefit to ratepayers?

The Premier and Treasurer gave the following satisfactory reply:-

At the present moment we have a committee inquiring into local government' finance--

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! I point out again t'O t:he hon'orabl'e member It:hat this a small amending Bill. It w'Ould not be permissible to discuss widely Commonwealth, State and local government financial relations. The Bill merely increases a figure from $500,000 to $600,000 and the question of the increase and whatever arises therefrom would be relevant, but a wide discussion of the Local Government Act or of Commonwealth, State and local government financial relationships would not be relevant.

Mr. MUTTON.-I menti'Oned earlier that the fund was established originally to assist needy municipalities. I thought I was 'in 'Order 'in menti'On'ing that 'the Government had realized the financial difficulties that c'Onfronted municipalities. That is why I hoped I could menti'On that it was Ithe Government's 'intention to make a 'large 'Scale investigati'On into local government. However, I must obey your rul'ing, Sir, such as 'it is. I conclude by saying that I support the measure although 'it goes only part of the way towards what I desire. I trust that in the future the Government will consider amending the


relevant section of the Local Government Act so that the 210 municipalities in Victoria will benefit and not only 167 of them.

Mr. WHEELER (Essendon).-I do not think :t;h'is smaU Bill calls for a debate such as has been taking place in which m'embers have been making compari's'Ons between country and metropolitan municipalities.

Mr. TURNBULL.-Where is that in the BiU?

Mr. WHEELER.-It is not in the Bill, but that is the type of remark that has been made. The Bill simply increases from $500,000 to $600.000 the amount which may be paid out of the Municipalities Assistance Fund in anyone financial year. These payments are made to municipalities on a $2 for $1 basis. From time to time throughout the year I visit a number of showgrounds and recreation reserve in country municipalities. The Municipalities Assistance Fund helps municipalities to meet the cost of establishing comfort stations and 'children's playgrounds, carrying out improvement works at recreation reserves, and so on. Some municipalities which have erected fine brick toilet blocks at showgrounds and recreation reserves obviously realize that the public desire hygienic facilities. Recently, I attended Berwick showgrounds and saw toilet facilities which were a disgrace.

I regret that I have some doubts about the use to which many municipalities put the money they receive from this fund. The honorable member for Swan Hill said that there was no equality in the revenue available to municipalities. I inferred from his remarks that he considers that some municipalities receive a greater contribution from the fund than others. It must be remembered that although some municipalities have less revenue they have not the same requirements. In the metropolitan area hundreds of people of all ages use some recreation reserves for which rents are paid and therefore these municipalities are in

a better position than some municipalities in the country to keep recreation reserves in a decent condition. The honorable member for Preston asked why persons who use recreation reserves should not make some contribution. The revenue available to many metropolitan municipalities enables them to keep their recreation reserves in order.

One point which worries me about the use of recreation reserves in the metropolitan area is the participation of school children and teenage groups on these reserves. Recently, on the radio programme "Talk Back" I heard a discussion in which it was stated that the Coburg council had charged a junior football team retrospective rent for a period of three years for the use of a recreation ground. I do not know why the municipality permits this sort of situation to arise.

Mr. TURNBULL.-It is bankrupt.

Mr. WHEELER.-I do not know whether that is so, but its finances are in a grave situation. That was not the position when the honorable member for Brunswick West and I were members of that council, so we must take some kudos. This measure is designed particularly to assist country municipalites. Having in mind the state of recreation reserves in some country districts I think the measure should be supported by members of all parties. It is to be hoped that the recipients of payments out of the fund will put the money to good use.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).The honorable member for Preston and the honorable member for Coburg pointed out that for a long period of years it has been accepted that metropolitan municipalities do not receive any assistance from the Municipalities Assistance Fund. I can find no statutory limitation which would prevent the Minister from granting assistance from the fund to metropolitan municipalities. Such a step would not require an amendment to' the Act. I do not know where this

4334 Local Government [ASSEMBLY] (Municipalities

policy originated, but successive Ministers in charge of local government affairs have followed it.

From my research into the background and history of this fund I found that the Motor Car (Fines and Drivers' Licence Fees) Act of 1964 provided that one-quarter of all drivers' licence fees and one-half of all driving instructors' licence fees should be paid into what is known as the Municipalities Assistance Fund maintained in the Treasury. This money, less the cost of collection, is used as enumerated in the Minister's second-reading speech. Therefore, the fund in its entirety is maintained by the motorists of Victoria and persons who obtain driving instructors' licences. When one considers the distribution of the population of Victoria, it is evident that it is substantially loaded in favour of the metropolitan area, as was pointed out by the honorable member for Coburg. Therefore, the majority of the ,money which is paid into the Municipalities Assistance Fund is derived from residents of the metropolitan area.

Furthermore, as has been pointed out, one-'third of the c'Ost 'Of maintaining the Country Fire Authority also has to be m'et from this fund under the Act. Therefore, ifhe total amount of revenue Which is paid into the fund from drivers' licence fees and driving instruct~ors' fees is not used to assist municipalliti'es by direct grants.

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply) .-1 raise a p'oint of order. 1 submit, Mr. Speaker, that the honorable member is discussing the principal Act and not the Bill and is n'ot following the ruling which yO'll gave a few minutes ago.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I wish to speak Ito !the point 'Of order, Mr. Speaker. Your ruling, which was quite clear and succinct, was that this small Bil'l does not encompass the principal Act. I submit that the honorahle m'ember for Broadmead'Ows is discuss'ing the proposed 'increa'S'e from $500,000 'to $600,000 and 'the source

from which that money will be derived. The honorable member referred ,to the Country Fire Authority and stated that m'etropoJittan municipalities would be forced to pay for their fire protection without the benefit of the proposed increase. Therefore, I submit that the honorable member is in order.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).The Bill amends SUb-section (3) of section 250 'Of the Local Government Act which speC'ificaHy mentions ,the sources from which this fund is derived. It is proposed to increase the maximum sum available from the fund from $500,000 Ito $600,000. 1 submit ,that Ithe honorahle member for BrO'admeadows 'is speaking specificaUy to the sub-section which is beling amended.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The Bill merely increases the amount to be paid 'into the fund, and '~t is out of 'order to discus'S the source 'Of !the fund. The honorable member may refer to that maifter in passing, but it is 'Out of order for hlim Ito discus's where it comes from and what is done with it when the Bill merely increases from $500,000 1:0 $600,000 the amount to be paid ,to' municipalities f'Or works. Therefore, 1 uphold the point 'of order. The debate should be on ,the works, Ithe proposed increase in 'the fund and what happens to' it, but not the fund.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).I do not wish to be interpreted as refleoting on the Chair, but your ruling, Mr. Speaker, restri'cts me because 1 cannot make tthe point that I consider 'that the am'Ount 'in the fund is insufficient. I was attempting to establish that point by informing the House how the money in the fund is allocated.

The SPEAKER.-Order! I have given my ruling that that would be out of order.

, Mr. WILTON.-Mr. Speaker, you are restricting me in this debate and it is pointless for me to proceed.


Mr. McCABE (Lowan).-I support the suggestion made by the honorable member for Swan Hill concerning the proposals contained in the Bill under which country municipalities will have their allocations from this fund increased from $3,000 to $4,000. I have raised this matter twice before in the House.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-On a pOint of order, there is no reference in the Bill to an increase from $3,000 to $4,000 to municipalities.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie ).-Order! I do not uphold the point of order.

Mr. McCABE (Lowan).-For the benefit of honorable members I shall explain how I arrived at an increase of from $3,000 to $4,000. The amount in the fund is to be increased from $500,000 to $600,000, which is an increase of $100,000, and I divided that amount by the number of municipalities which will participate. This money should be allocated proportionately amongst country municipalities. A shire may have only two or three small towns with popUlations of 200 or 300 within its boundaries and another shire may have three or four towns with popUlations in excess of 1,000 within its boundaries. It is not fair that a shire similar to the second one I mentioned should receive the same amount as a shire similar to the first one I mentioned. I ask the Government to investigate this point.

Members of the Opposition have made several suggestions regarding the provisions of the Bill, but I point out that no member of the Labor Party representing a country electorate has participated in the debate.


and committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 (Increase of maximum

sum to be approved by Minister for payment out of the Municipalities Assistance Fund in anyone financial year).

Mr. WHEELER (Essendon).-I should like to clarify a point made by the honorable members for Lowan and Swan Hill. The allocations made from the Municipalities Assistance Fund to country municipalities will be subsidies on a two for one basis. If a municipality does not provide a matching grant it will not receive an additional allocation from the fund.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).The increase in the maximum sum that the Minister for Local Government may payout of the Municipalities Assistance Fund in anyone financial year from $500,000 to $600,000 is totally inadequate in view of the inflationary problems facing municipalities in Victoria. The benefits that flow from payments from this fund can be maintained only if the Government is prepared to increase the pay-out figure to a realistic amount. The fund will receive most of its revenue from holders of driving licences and driving instructors' licences and therefore it is unfair for the Government to saddle the fund not only with the task of providing revenue to meet applications for subsidy under the two for one scheme but also with the responsibility of providing one-third of the cost of the operations of the Country Fire Authority. It is also unfair that metropolitan municipalities will not share in the distribution of the fund, but this position has applied for many years. However, there is no statutory limitation to prevent the Minister for Local Government from granting subsidies from the fund to metropolitan municipalities.

A large percentage of the contributors to the fund reside in metropolitan municipalities, yet the Government proposes to take discriminatory action against these municipalities by giving country municipalities exclusive access to the fund. The fund is also used to relieve country municipalities from the responsibility of contributing towards the cost of the operations of the Country Fire Authority. One-third of the costs of that authority is met

4336 Local Government (ASSEMBLY. ] ( Municipalities

from the fund and two-thirds by insurance companies. In contrast, one-third of the costs of the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board is met by metropolitan municipalities and two-thirds by insurance companies. Metropolitan municipalities are being denied access to this fund but the fund is s:tiU saddl'ed wirth the obligation of meeting one-third of the costs of the Country Fire Authority and this obligation is being materially affected by the decision of the Government to limit the increase in the fund by $100,000 from $500,000 to $600,000. Under the present-day financial responsibilities of municipalities, $100,000 is a pittance. The increase is unrealistic and the Government should re-examine the position and take into consideration the points that I have made and should ensure that a fair deal is given to all municipalities.

Metropolitan municipalities are already bedevilled by financial problems in every sphere of their activities and because of the density of population a tremendous strain is placed on these municipalities in providing sporting and recreational facilities. The money to be allocated from the Municipalities Assistance Fund will he used to meet the capital cost of establishment and maintenance of sporting and recreation facilities, and these costs are far greater in the metropolitan area than they are in country areas.

During the second-reading debate the honorable member for Essendon referred to the situation which has developed in recent years whereby many State and private schools seek assistance from metropolitan municipalities in the provision of sporting facilities. This has thrown additional responsibility onto metropolitan municipalities and is presenting them with a serious problem. I know of no municipality that would deliberatelv withhold the use of its sporting facilities from schools; on the contrary, to mv knowledge all metropolitan municipalities co-operate with the Education Department and with the principals of secondary and

Mr. Wilton.

primary schools in providing sporting facilities. However, the metropolitan municipalities receive no subsidies from the Municipalities Assistance Fund for the establishment and maintenance of these sports grounds. The Government is discriminating against metropolitan municipalities by denying them access to this fund.

If the Government wanted to give a fair deal to all municipalities it would re-examine the position and give consideration to the responsibilities that it is loading on to metropolitan municipalities. In view of present-day costs, the ceiling of $600,000 for the fund is an unrealistic figure.

Mr. WHEELER.-The position would be worse if metropolitan municipalities were included.

Mr. WILTON.-If the Government were prepared to remove from the fund the responsibility of providing one-third of the cost of the operations of the Country Fire Authority, the total figure that could be distributed to municipalities, including those in the metropolitan area, would be considerably increased. If it is good enough for the Government to expect metropolitan municipalities to meet one-third of the cost of the operations of the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board it is equally good enough for the Government to expect country municipalities to meet one-third of the cost of the operations of the Country Fire Au~hol"ity. However, members 'Of the Country Party want everything for nothing. They look to the cities for their s'Ociall life, for better facilities and for markets for their products, but they want nothing else to do with them. I expect a similar reaction from members of the Country Party to my suggestion that metropolitan municipalities should benefit from distributions made from the Municipalities Assistance Fund. Members of the Country Party have always taken the view that the country is sacrosanct and no one should interfere with what happens there. In view of the density of population in


the metropolitan area it is not unrealistic that metropolitan munICIpalities should participate in distributions made from the fund to enable them to carry the burdens placed upon them by the Government.

Mr. BURGIN (Polwarth).-Finance allocated from the Municipalities Assistance Fund has been of grea't assistance in country areas. With local co-operation, these funds go a long way towards providing adequate sporting facilities.

The Opposition has attempted to turn this debate into a hate session against ,country municipalities, but one does not know what are the thoughts of members of the Opposition who represent country areas because not one of them has risen to take part in this debate. No member of this Chamber could argue that the cost of providing sporting facilities in country and city areas is not different. -In the city, where there are 1mH-t-up areas with a high rateable value, it is easier to install recreational facilities on reserves than it is in a country area. Sporting facilities in the city have large numbers of people near them, and they contribute to the cost involved. In the country, however, a spor.ting facility may have only 100 or 200 people in its vicinity. It means that country municipalities are forced to carry a heavier burden, and for that reason the fund provides valuable assistance to them.

The honorable member for Swan Hill expressed the view that the bigger shires should receive larger allocations from the ,Municipalities Assistance Fund, but I challenge that statement, because I think that many more factors must be taken into consideration.

The assistance that municipalities receive from the fund enables many des-irable objectives to be achieved, and I am sure that it plays an important part in the provision of recreational facilities for country people. The Opposition deplored the fact that part of the fund is paid

to the Country Fire Authority but, having regarded to the large amount of voluntary work which is done by country people in connection with that Authority, I do not think city dwellers have any room for complaint.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-If this inept Government had any sense, it would scrap this fund, and give country municipalities the assistance that they deserve. Assistance should not be rendered in such a shameful way as it is. This fund does not help municipalities; it merely gives the Government an excuse to say, "Through municipal taxpayers and ratepayers, we will contribute a certain amount of money towards the cost of sporting facilities in certain shires, but it will be a maximum of $4,000". I repeat that the Opposition believes the Government should scrap this fund, which contains only $600,000. If the Government wishes to provide more sporting facilities in the country, it should not do so with funds which are contributed by metropolitan ra tepayers.

The honorable member for Polwarth spoke of the increased cost of providing facilities in the country, but I remind the honorable member that if city municipalities wish to install a railway crossing, or a pedestrian cftossing, they must pay for it themselves, or subsidize the Ministry of Transport. Regardless of the desirability of installing, say, a railway crossing, the municipaH'ty must pay one-th'ird of its cost before the Minister of Transport will even consider the project.

Members of the Country Party have alleged that members of the Opposition who represent country areas are not aware of the situation, but I assure the Committee that they are intensely aware of the situation and of the way in which it has been permitted to develop over the past fifteen years because of the Government's refusal to do anything tangible.

4338 Local Government [ASSEMBLY. ] (Municipalities

The Government asks, " Why should metropolitan ratepayers not subsidize this fund in order to assist country municipalities?", and in reply I say that, if it is desired to give assistance, it should be given by the Treasury. The Government should be giving far more thought to decentralization than to increasing this fund from $500,000 to $600,000.

The Opposition is having difficulty in putting its case to the Committee because of the narrow oonfines of this debate.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Jona).-During the second-reading debate it was ruled that speakers would n'O't go into lengthy details concerning the way in which this money should be spent. In Committee, however, the Chair has allowed considerably more latitude during discussion of clause 2 of the Bill. I consider that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and previous speakers have dealt with this aspect of the matter in sufficient detail. If the Deputy Leader of the Opposition wishes to discuss decentralization, I suggest that he should leave it for a more appropriate debate.

Mr. WILKES.-I appreciate your ruling, Sir. I do not intend to discuss decentralization any further; nor do I intend to discuss how country municipalities should spend the miserable $4,000. That is a matter for them. The fact remains that the situation is inequitable-in fact, the Government requires that part of motor car driving instructors' licence fees should be used to supplement the fund. The Government will use any means to squeeze money out of any section of the community for the purpose of pursuing its policies in country areas. This assistance should be granted through the Treasury.

Mr. WHEELER (Essendon).-During his speech, the Deputy Leader of the Opposition stated that the Municipalities Assistance Fund should be scrapped, but I do not think that

members of the Opposition who represent country electorates would like local newspapers to report that they shared that view. I wonder what local councillors will think of the contention of the honorable member for Kara Kara that this fund is so miserable that it 'Ought to be done away with.

This fund was originated a long time ago-back in the days of the depression when money was granted to municipalities to be used for the provision of sustenance to those in need. The fund has continued in existence and, in accordance with the promise he made in his policy speech, the Premier has increased the fund by $100,000. There is no doubt that country municipalities will appreciate this action. The fund is of assistance to country municipalities, and I do not see why they should not accept any allocation which is made to them in the spirit in which it is offered.

Mr. SHILTON (Midlands).-As a member of the Opposition who represents a country area, I should like to say at the outset how delighted I am that the Municipalities Assistance Fund has been increased. As a former councillor in a country shire, I know that this increase will be welcomed, especially as it will assist in the improvement of parks and gardens which are provided not only for the benefit of country people but also for the benefit of city dwellers who visit country districts and members of Parliament who return to the country at the week-end to escape the polluted air of the city.

This proposed legislation clearly shows that in the long period during which this Government has held office it has proved itself to be completely incapable of coping with problems of local Government ·finance. I do not agree with the suggestion that ·allocations from the Municipalities Assistance Fund should be made on the basis of the population -in the areas concerned, but one can understand the reason for the suggestion when one realises that the policy 'Of the Liberal Party is tha t the small


should grow smaller, the large should grow larger, and to heck with all the rest. Whilst the provisions of the Bill do not solve all the problems of local government finance, they are a great improvement and represent a 25 per cent increase which is of valuable assistance to country shires. For that reason, I support the Bill.

Mr. McCABE (Lowan).-I take issue with the honorable member for Midlands in his misuse-I hope it was not deliberate-of the word "popuJation ". I used the word "proportion ". I ignored the interjection of the honorable member for Coburg when he tried to put the word" population" into my mouth. I hope he did it unintentionally.

Mr. KIRKWOOD (Preston).-I was surpr.ised at the antagonism shown to members of the Opposition by country members in this Chamber. I should like to think that they could speak with the same authority as 1 can on municipal affairs. The Municipal Association of Victoria had a recent deputation through its executive committee to the Premier and the Minister for Local Government in support of an increase in the level of Government assistance towards community services provided by municipal councils. The association sought a substantial increase in the total amount available from the Municipalities Assistance Fund. It stated that this fund is used in aid of municipalities outside the metropolis to implement programmes for the improvement of local amenties, particularly those of a recreational nature. It also said that currently, the fund is believed to receive an amount of $500,000 per annum for allocation to councils. This is a much appreCiated aid to municipalities, particularly. to the rural shires.

The Municipal Association of Victoria agreed that this fund should be substantially increased, but asked whether there was any reason why it should be restricted to country shires. That view has been expressed

in this debate by members of the Opposition, but honorable members representing country areas have been speaking contrary to the views of public spirited citizens who are experienced in local government. This illustrates that no unanimity in thought in relation to municipal affairs has been voiced in this Chamber. Many honorable members believe that they can gain something by espousing certain causes; they are not concerned with the interests of municipalities within their electorates. They are less concerned with the interest of the State as a whole.

Mr. MACLELLAN (Gippsland West) .-1 support this measure which provides for an increase in the MuniCipalities Assistance Fund. 1 assure the honorable member for Preston that the municipalities in the electorate of Gippsland West are appreciative of the work that they are able to achieve with money from this fund. 1 can understand the comments of the honorable member for Kara Kara and his suggestion that the fund should be further increased. Everybody would be pleased to see some increase.

Every honorable member, including the honorable member for Midlands, has expressed the view that the work achieved from this fund is valuable and worth while. The carping criticism has come only from honorable members who represent city electorates. They have a chip on their shoulder because they do not get anything from the fund. That view is easily understandable. Honorable members who represent city electorates want to get in on the fund. Those who represent country electorates want to see the fund expanded so that the work they are able to perform can be increased. The honorable member for Deer Park probably has a 50-50 bet. Some parts of his electorate get some assistance and other parts that vote for him do not. Probably he has an easy line to take.


I have no confusion because a number of shires and a borough in my electorate will benefit from the fund. I strongly support the measure and the increase it provides. I depreca te the remarks of the honorable member for Broadmeadows who seemed to pay no regard to the work done and the risks undertaken by the thousands of volunteer members of the Country Fire Authority. He made a carping criticism, saying that the metropolitan municipalities have to contribute to the wages paid to the firemen in the city. He needs to retain some balance and should remember that thousands and thousands of people outside his electorate voluntarily give up their time to protect the lives and property of their fellow citizens. Tha t is a substantial contribution made by many people in country areas. Every honorable member should remember this fact, and should be reminded of it.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-I should like to retaliate and reply to some of the comments of the honorable member for Essendon, who suggested that members of the OppositionI suppose he would have included me-were concerned only with scrapping legislation of this type. He knows that many members of the Opposition have had at least twenty years' experience in local government and that therefore they are conversant with the subject now under discussion.

When the honorable member for Broadmeadows referred to the Country Fire Authority, unfortunately he did not have the necessary figures before him. The latest figures in relation to contributions to the Country Fire Authority are contained in the Victorian Year Book, and they refer to 1968. The sum of $417,385 was contributed to rural municipalities from the Municipalities Assistance Fund. In the same year the sum of $953,338 was contributed to the Country Fire Authority. 'Therefore, people in rural areas are getting more than their fair share from the

Municipalities Assistance Fund. What is wrong with councillors representing metropolitan municipalities putting up a case for some assistance? They do not want the Municipalities Assistance Fund to be scrapped but they believe that it should be administered on a fairer basis. I remember the remarks ·of eminent Australians many years ago when they said that there should be no taxation without representation.

A total of 167 municipalities in Victoria representing one-third of the population of the State receive benefits from the Municipalities Assistance Fund; but in the metropolis, 43 municipalities representing two-thirds of the total population do not come into the reckoning. How this fund ever obtained the title " Municipalities Assistance Fund " I shall never know. It is discriminatory in its application. The method of the disbursement of moneys from the fund should be reviewed, applied on a per capita basis and not used only for country municipalities. Needy municipalities do not exist only in the country.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).I should like to reply to the completely distorted version of my remarks made by the honorable member for Gippsland West. No honorable member in this House would have more respect for the Country Fire Authority than I. It is the result of this rotten, lazy Government, poling on the backs of the authority that has brought it to the state that it is in today. I have repeatedly raised my voice in the Chamber regarding payments to district officers.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Jona).-Order! I direct the attention of the honorable member for Broadmeadows to the fact that the debate is not on the structure of the Country Fire Authority. He is permitted to make a passing reference to the authority, as he did in his earlier remarks, but he should return to the subject of the clause.


. Mr. WILTON.-The remarks of the honorable member for Gippsland West show quite conclusively that he does not have the capacity to grasp the situation stated by members of the Opposition. He has fallen back on the argument that is repeatedly made by Government supporters who are embarrassed by the niggardly attitude of the Government to municipalities.

No member of the Opposition has suggested that country municipalities are not appreciative of what they have received from the Municipalities Assistance Fund. However, members of the Opposition have said that the fund is completely inadequate and it is saddled by this Government with an unfair responsibility. The Government has repeatedly refused to face up to its responsibilities in regard to local Government. All municipalities should be receiving far greater assistance from the Government but the reverse is happening. The Government is repeatedly loading on to municipalities more responsibility. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition referred to the provision of boom barriers at level crossings. Under this Government, municipalities must meet up to one-third of the cost, which emphasizes how the Government is poling on the backs of local governing bodies, and it is doing so in many fields. It has welshed on the agreement oovering municipal libraries and regional library services.

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply) .-1 raised a pOint of order while this matter was being discussed in the House, and 1 raise it again while it is being discussed in Committee. The honorable member for Broadmeadows is not 'Only not speaking to the clause that the Committee is considering but deliberately disregarding your ruling, Mr. Acting Chairman, and the previous ruling of the Speaker.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).On the point of order, Mr. Acting Chairman, I am not deliberately disregarding your ruling. 1 submit that 1 should be permitted to make certain

references. 1 made the accusation against the Government that it is not facing up to its responsibilities in making this fund much greater than it is, and that is my point.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Jona).-Order! 1 uphold the point of order raised by the Minister of Water Supply, who has directed my attention to my ruling earlier in the debate. On that occasion 1 ruled that whilst in the second-reading stage members would be allowed a certain amount of latitude in referring to the way in which municipalities may spend the money available by means of contributions from Government sources, they would be restricted to passing references only. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition and the honorable member for Broadmeadows have made passing references to this aspect and this has been permitted. 1 believe they have made their point, and there is no need to give further illustrations. 1 ask the honorable member for Broadmeadows to return precisely to the terms of clause 2 and to restrict his remarks to that clause.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).-1 shall certainly comply with your request, Mr. Acting Chairman. 1 appreciate the latitude that you have allowed to honorable members in this debate. I am still of the opinion that the fund is totally inadequate for the task for which it is designed. From a study of the historical background of the fund and the sources of money which make it possible in its present form, it is obvious that there is discrimination against certain municipalities in the State. 1 certainly refute any suggestion by the Government that I am discriminating against the country municipalities in favour of the metropolitan municipaliites. 1 believe all municipalities should receive far greater assistance from the fund than they are now receiving.

Mr. A. T. EVANS (Ballaarat North). -This debate has been most revealing. Members of my party have sensed for some time where the Labor Party stands in relation to the

4342 Local Government [ASSEMBLY.] ( Municipalities

country municipalities of the State. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition, backed up by the yelping from the honorable member from Kara Kara, left no mistake in the minds of members that the Opposition is totally opposed to the fund, and that it wants it abolished.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Jona).-Ordef! I ask the honorable member for Kara Kara to cease interjecting. He has made the same interjection three times, and I ask him to listen to the honorable member for Ballaarat North.

Mr. A. T. EVANS.-This conception has been backed by the recen t statement of the honorable member for Broadmeadows. At one stage, the honorable member for Midlands, no doubt thinking of his slippery seat, attempted to retrieve the position, and to give the honorable member his due he often comes out wIth a spirit of independence and refreshing thinking that is unusual from members of the Opposition. Considerable confusion and disagreement exists among Opposition members. The honorable member for Preson--


The ACTING C.HAIRMAN (Mr. Jona).--'As I mentioned earlier, the Chair has allowed a certain amount of latitude in the debate on this clause. The honorable member for Ballaarat North is now directing his remarks to the general attitude of the Opposition without specific reference to the clause. I ask the honorable member to return to the Bill.

Mr. A. T. EV ANS.-With respect to you, Mr. Acting Chairman, I shall channel my remarks by refuting the statements of the Opposition on clause 2. While his Leader maintains that the Bill should be with· drawn, the honorable member for Preston supports the Municipal Association of Victoria. The Opposition has obviously overlooked that under the Minister for Local Government,

the Honorable R. J. Hamer, a special fund was instituted that met the requirements of most municipalities which made provision of special sporting centres and other facilities. The Ballarat showground, which is used by the schools, agricultural societies, and a football club, has been in a deplorable state for years. The amount of money that has been forthcoming from the Minister will enable that ground to be brought up to a sufficiently high standard so that the people of Ballarat can fully enjoy this facility. Previously, the ground was so bad that the foothall club using it intended to walk off. This demonstrates the flexible approach of Mr. Hamer while administering the Local Government Department. The honorable member for Broadmeadows said that the Country Fire Authority was in a rotten condition. The honorable member should get off his backside and go ·out to the country and see what the voluntary members of the Country Fire Author'ity think of his remark.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition.)-I rise to a point of order, Mr. Acting Chairman. You, Sir, very properly ruled the honorable member for Broadmeadows 'Out of order when he was endeavouring to elaborate his comments about the Country .Fire Authority. I believe that to allow the debate to proceed along these lines is to invite honorable members to ignore your ruling. I would ask you to rule that the honorable member for Ballaarat North is out of order.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Jona).-Order! It is true that I have allowed a certain amount of latitude to both sides of the Committee. I have allowed the honorable member for Ballaarat North to' continue 'in the manner in which he was speaking because he was answering specifically the point of view which was expressed by the honorable member for Broadmeadows. I believe the honorable member for Ballaarat North has done this, and I ask him to return again to the clause.

Assistance Funcl) [24 MARCH, 1971.] Bill. 4343

Mr. A. T. EVANS (Ballaarat North). -I do not agree with one activity of the Municipalities Assistance Fund. In recent years, the field has been extended to include bowling clubs and golf clubs and make them eligible to participate in this assistance. Clubs of this type generally need a large amount of money. The people who belong to clubs are usually removed from the situation of people who use other sporting arenas, tennis courts, and basketball courts, and removed from the responsibilities of maintaining families. Many bowling and golf clubs can be adequately financed from their own resources. Most municipalities, which do not accept applications for assistance from these clubs, abide by the policy that the funds should be used for sporting arenas and ancillary equipment.

One point must be kept in mind: By allowing this type of club to partiCipate in the distributi'Ons from the fund, clubs which have lucrative liquor licences 'or h'Ope to get licences in the future will als'O be a'llowed to participate.

Mr. FELL (Greensborough).-I support the Bill because three 'Of the four municipaJilti'es 'in the electorate that I represent receive distributions from 'the Municipalities Assistance Fund, a'nd the increased allocation will be welc'Om'ed by those municipalities. Th'i's 'is rec'Ognized by the fact that the Opposition is supporting the Bill. However, because members of the Opp'Osition are supporting the m'easure that does not prevent them from l'eveUing 'legitimate criticism at the inadequacy of the increase in the am'aunt in th'e fund. It can fairly be said that the amount by which the fund has increased 'Over the years since it was established has n'Ot been sufficIent to' cover the additi'Onal c'Osts brought about 'by 'inflation. Municipalities have to expend large sums of m'Oney to provide sp'Orting fa'Cilities.

Members 'Of the Opposition do n'01 criticize the fund as such, but we strongly criticize the amount of the allocation to each muniCipality from

the fund. In debating the Municipalities Assistance Fund honorable members should take cognizance of the huge indebtedness of municipalities, many of which are almost bankrupt because 'Of the high c'Ost of capital works. 1 recognize, as do the municipalities in my electorate, the benefits derived from the fund, but I als'O recognize that the minimum needs 'Of the municipal'ifti'es are far greater than the amounts all'Ocated from the fund. Those allocations are merely a droop in the 'Ocean when compared with the finance needed by municipalities to get ,them out of the bogbole in which they have become submerged. It is essen'tia/l that the amount in the fund be c'Onsiderably increas'ed.

Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland East) . -This debate has been most interesting because members 'Of the Labor Party have said in no uncertain terms that 'they are 'Opposed to c'Oun try municipalities obtaining a slight advantage 'Over metropolitan municipalities. Members of Ithe Labor Party have admitted that the all'Ocati'Ons made to' mun'icipal'ities from the fund are paltry and this makes me wonder why this measure has engendered so much heat.

When members of the Opposition argue that metrop'olitan municipalities are being 'disadvantaged by the terms of this BiB, they overlook all the advantages that city municipalities have 'Over country municipalities. The Bill merely attempts to offset some of the disadvantages suffered by country muniCipalities. Members of 'the Labor Party do not suggest that one-third 'Of 'the money spent on universities in the metropolitan area should be spent in the country or that one-third of the public servants should be empl'Oyed in 'c'Ountry areas with a view Ito remOving the imba'lance of the distribution 'Of population in Victoria. This is where the inequality really begin'S and the concession in the Bill goes 'Only a short distance towards 'Offsetting some of the disadvantages 'Suffered by c'Ountry municipalities.


I understand that the local sporting bodies have to proVide the ~ocal c'Ontributi'On before an aHoc'a'ti'Ofl is made from 'the fund and 'the 'Only function of the municipality is to supervise the spending 'Of the money. Therefore, the allocati'Ons from the fund make n'O rea'l c'Ontribu'ti'On Ito the finances of country mun'ic'ipaHties. The debate has laid fairly and squarely on the line the attitude adopted by members of 'the Labor Party ,to t'he country. Members of the C'Ountry Party supp'Or.t the Bi'll and country municipal'ities wel'c'Omle it.


Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas).Members of the Labor Party support the Bill and our only criticism is aimed at the Government for not supplying sufficient money to the Municipalities Assistance Fund. If the Premier had put an adequate case to the Federal Government for additional finance for Victoria, sufficient money might have been provided for this fund.

Tonight several attacks have been made on the Labor Party by Government supporters and one in particular related to the Country :Fire Authority. The honorable member for Ballaarat North criticized the honorable member for Broadmeadows on the basis that the Labor Party had not supported the Country Fire Authority. In 1966 Parlia,ment passed a Bill which gave the Country Fire Authority certain borrowing powers, but at that time no back-bench member of the Government party spoke in support of the Bill.

A rather pitiful attack on the Bill was made by a member of the Country Party, the honorable member for Gippsland East, who stated that the Labor Party should endeavour to attract universities to country areas. I point out that the honorable member for Kara Kara has endeavoured to attract a university to Maryborough, and the honorable members for Midlands, Morwell, Portland, and I have supported the construction of a university in the country.

I assure the Committee that the Labor Party does not oppose the Bill.

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply) .-1 commend the honorable member for Dundas for making a supreme effort to conceal the confusion existing in the ranks of the Opposition. This confusion became evident when the honorable member for Broadmeadows made an unenlightened attack on the Country Fire Authority and its voluntary members. On several occasions the honorable member for Broadmeadows endeavoured to be relieved of his confusion during the second-reading debate and again during the Committee stage. It was not until the honorable member for Greensborough spoke that the division amongst members of the Opposition became evident. This division brought dismay and despondency to the Leader of the Opposition' who does not often show dismay or despondency.

The honorable member for Greensborough supported the proposed increase of $100,000 to be paid to the Municipalities Assistance Fund because three of the four municipalities in his electorate would benefit. Other members of the Opposition who have been in this Chamber for a much longer period than the honorable member for Greensborough did not realize that since last year members of the Labor Party now represent country electorates. These members are an asset to this Parliament, as well as to the Opposition.

Mr. CURNow.-Wait for me.

Mr. DUNSTAN.-Before the honorable member for Kara Kara speaks, he should receive some advice. So far his only contribution to the debate has been to say by interjection that there is no Minister for Local Government. I inform the honorable member in a most friendly manner that there is a Minister 'for Local Government-he is the Honorable R. J. Hamer, who last week resigned from the Legislative Council, but who is still the Minister for Local Government. If it ever dawns on the honorable


member for Kara Kara that what I have been saying is Icorrectalthough .in hoping for that I believe I am being far too optimistic-I am sure that this will be a far more effective debate.

Mr. FELL.-The increase is far too small.

Mr. DUNSTAN.-I think the honorable member for Greensborough would be well advised not to interject too often, because he has already upset his Leader so much that the honorable member has left the Chamber and will not return until the debate has concluded. Having regard to the poor standard of debate that has been displayed by members of the Opposition, ,I do not blame the honorable member for not wishing to listen to it.

The essence of this measure is contained in -clause 2, and in my view members of the Opposition who intend to take part in the debate should indicate whether they support the ,measure, whether they oppose it, whether there is a division of opinion between city and country members or whether they wish the Government to report progress and to further examine this proposed legislation. I think the Committee is entitled to ask the three" Deputy Leaders of the Opposition "-that is, the honorable members for Moonee Ponds, Broadmeadows and Northcote -for such an indication.

If any honorable member on the Opposition side of the Chamber can speak in a responsible W'3.y for his party on this Bill-and I have grave doubts about that-I believe he should indicate whether a request is to be made for progress to be reported or whether his party will support the measure without further poppycock.

Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland).-I have listened to the attempt of the Minister of Water Supply to distort the facts and I believe it to have been a singularly unsuccessful one. No honorable ·member of integrity

Session 1971.-157

would assert that any member of the Opposition has spoken against this proposed legislation.

The Opposition supports the Bill, but it is opposed to the miserable size of the .increase in the Municipalities Assistance Fund. It is an increase of only $100,000, a sum that any football coach would receive. What can be done with such a small sum-and II here take the opportunity of -correcting one honorable member who stated that it was an increase of 25 per cent, for, in fact, it is an increase of only 20 per cent.

There is no doubt that .country municipalities will be thankful for the increased amount, but the Opposition is of the view that it is insufficient. The honorable member for Ballaarat North stated that golf clubs received allocations from the Municipalities Assistance Fund. That is not true because on 2nd March last, I asked the Minister of Transport, for the Minister for Local Government, whether grants would be made available for this purpose and the answer was an emphatic " No ". Some municipalities within my electoratE: have been given the same answer.

Earlier in the debate, reference was made to the Country Fire Authority. There is no doubt that the authority is a wonderful body, and I can speak from pers'Onal experience. The authority has recognized the need for additional equipment for fire fighting in country areas and the grants made by the authority have materially assisted the local brigades.

Mr. DUNsTAN.-Will the honorable member say that in Broadmeadows?

Mr. W. J. LEWIS.-I will say it anywhere. Irrespective of what Government supporters may say, the Labor Party does not oppose the Bill.

Mr. CURNOW (Kara Kara).~I make it plain to the Minister 'Of Water Supply that, without reservation, the Labor Party supports the

4346 Police Regulation [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

principle of the measure. However, its members do not support the miserly additional amount that will be given to municipalities-it should be ten times the amount. Any honorable member who thinks otherwise should not be a member of Parliament fighting for his local municipalities. The Australian Labor Party in this Parliament has never stopped fighting for increased finance for municipalities, and this miserly amount of $100,000 will go nowhere towards assisting country municipalities. Within my electorate there is one city, one town and ten shires, making a total of twelve municipalities, which means an additional allocation to my electorate of $12,000, assuming that each municipality receives $1,000. This sum will not grass the suface of one oval or even pay for the lawn seed.

The fact must be faced that country municipalities are broke and need not hundreds of thousands of dollars but nearer $100 million. But the Opposition recognizes that any increase is better than none, and accordingly it unconditionally supports the Bill and implores the Minister to make additional money available immediately.

MR. MEAGHER.-Why not move an amendment to that effect?

Mr. CURNOW.-I should have thought the Minister would understand Parliamentary procedures better than that. As always, I shall ignore the interjection and ask that more money be given to municipalities. Because an increase will flow from this measure the Opposition supports it and let no member of the Gover-nment challenge that statement.


The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

POLICE REGULATION (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 9) on the motion of Mr. Reid (Chief Secretary) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-The Bill carries out a recommendation of Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston and provides for an increase in the number of assistant commissioners from three to five, and designates specific duties for the additional assistant commissioners.

At page 20 of his report, which has been so thoroughly debated in this House over the past fortnight, Sir Eric St. Johnston said-

57. I find much to criticize in the present organization of the force headquarters, and I wish to emphasize at the outset that above the clerical grade, the headquarters is very much understaffed and that as a consequence everyone in a responsible position at force headquarters is greatly overworked.

58. The Chief Commissioner has his own personal secretary allocated to him but has no other personal staff, though he can, and does, of course, call on variou~ officers and public servants to do work for him. The deputy and the assistant commissioners are particularly overworked. They have a multitude of responsibilities and they do not have anyone to help them with their important work. None of them has a second in command or a staff officer. They do not even have a secretary and each has to call on the general typing pool when they want any typing done.

In this portion of his report, Sir Eric has clearly stated the position in relation to the three senior officers of the Victoria Police Force. As I pointed out in the recent debate on the report of Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston that situation has existed for a past fifteen years. The Chief Commissioner of Police and his assistant commissioners are in an even worse position in regard to clerical assistance than the back-bench members of Parliament. It is a sorry state of affairs that an organization as viable and as important as the Police Force should be so understaffed that the three titular heads should have no clerical assistance.

Police Regulation [24 MARCH, 1971.] (Amendment) Bill. 4347

This Bill proposes to increase the number of assistant commissioners from three to five, but the Chief Secretary has not suggested that they will be provided with any persDnal staff. It would not matter if the number of assistant commissioners was increased from three to ten, if they have not the required assistance and are labouring under the same disadvantages that now exist with two assistant commissioners, the proposed increase will be futile.

It is important that the structure of the force be changed as recommended by Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston, but complementary to this restructuring is the provision of adequate staff and clerical assistance. If this is not provided, the effect of the appointment of the two extra assistant commissioners will be nullified. The Chief Secretary should be aware of this situation. Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston said that the Victoria Police Force is understaffed to the extent of 2,000 men. With the -appointment of the two extra assistant com-missioners the force will be 1,998 men understaffed. The Government should urgently consider the employment of complementary services.

Clause 3 proposes to amend section 14 of the principal Act by providing that, on resignation, a policeman need give only one month's notice instead of three months' notice. Many policemen have wanted to resign because the Governmen t refused to pay them their just entitlement and to -acknowledge their rights as compared with policemen in other States. In a recent debate, ,I informed the Government that it would ,cost $2.25 million to bring the remuneration of -members of the Victoria Police Force up to parity with their counterparts in New South Wales. I should be prepared to give evidence before the Police Service Board but I have my doubts about the attitude of the Government to that board. Members of the Opposition believe that

if their views can strengthen the case of the Police Association before the Police Service Board, they would appear, but they would do so in -a far different -capacity from the appearance of the Government in the past, when the -claims of the policemen have been opposed.

,At present, a policeman is required to give three mDnths' notice of his intention to resign. It is reasonable to expect that the Government would believe that if a policeman obtained another position with better pay and conditions, by tying him to three months' notice of intention, he may not accept the new position and would reconsider his decision. If that was the intention of the Government, it has failed. On many occasions I have informed the House how many men have left the force in the past twelve years. r shall not repeat the figures. Suffice it to say that an alarming position has been reached.

The Government has now decided that one month's notice of resignation is sufficient. I do not agree. In most spheres of employment and in the Public Service, employers require 'Only a fortnight's notice. The Government has held over the heads of the policeman the fact that he would jeopardize his long service leave entitlement and other remuneratiDn. ,Instead of implementing provisions such as this, the Govern-ment should make the employment of policemen more attractive. The Government representative at the hearing of the Police Service Board should be more vociferous and support the claim 'Of the Police Association to ensure that at least the members of the Victoria Police Force should regain the position that they held ten or twelve years' ago. Unless that is done, honorable members know what the result will be because they read the newspapers and are aware of the cdme rate. There has been some disputa Hon in this House a's to its effect. The Minister of Housing recently disputed some statements made by members

Police Regulation [ASSEMBLY. ] (Amendment) Bill.

of the Opposition. However, the precise number of crimes committed is not the point; suffice to say that crime is increasing. Whether. the crime soluNon rate is 4-6 per cent, 36 per cent or 70 per ,cent, it is not good enough; what the Labor 'P'arty is interested in and what the Government sh'Ould be interested in is reducing the crime rate and providing the protection desired by ,every citizen of this State. When one speaks to people in the 'S'treets of IM-elbourne one is told that it is not 'safe to be in certain places at certain times in the city because of the depletion in the r.anks 'Of the PoHee Force.

The Bill goes some of the 'way t'Owa'rds relieving the conditlions of policemen who are dissatisfied with their remuneration and who, because of that dissatisfaction, have been prepared to take certain action ,in the past. There ,is no reason why Victor.i'a eould not and ,should not have the best equipped, the best manned and the best diSCiplined Police Force in Australia. The men who have remained in the force and who have been prepared to carry the ·workload that they have been carrying at local police stations and in the city are to be commended for putting up with the conditions to which they have been subjected. If the Government wishes t'O implement the recommendationscontained in the ,St. Johnston report it 'Should 'Start with the basic recommendations relating to. increased pay and increased staff, which a.re complementary to one another. If the incentive is increased, the numbers wi'll also rise. The Government cannot deny that at periods since it has been 'in office it could have recruited m'Ore men into the force but because 'Of economic restrictions it refused or rejected recruits. That is 'a dreadful situatJi'On which should not be tolerated.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member is now getting on to another subject.

:Mt. WILKES . ...:-I realize that, Sir, and I appreciate your tolerance. If this measure does -anything t'O encourage men to remain in the f.orce or to encourage 'Other men to join the force,members of the Opposition ·will be satis'fied.

It is proposed to 'appoint tw'O additional 'assistant commissioners, and members of the Opposition wish them well. We do not know 'who they will be; thei~ appointment is 'a matter for the Government. We know that within the force there are many men who ,are capable of 'Occupying the position of assistant 'commis,; sioner. No doubt the Government, in consultation with the Chief Commissioner of Police. will undertake an exhaustive examination of the pos,; sible appointees to the new positions. I do not know whether the Police Service Board will have anything to do with this matter, but I hope that the best men are appointed to the job, in conformity with the recommendations of the St. Johnston report, having - regard to ability rather than seniority. That is important in this case, particularly when assistant commissioners have field marshals' batons in their knapsacks and may one day be candidates for the position of Chief Commissioner of the force.

The final purpose ,of the Bill is contained in clause 4 and is to 'appoint a deputy chairman of the Police Servke Board to act in the absence 'of the chairman. The Government expects that thiis provision will allow the deputy chairman to familiarize himself with the requirements of the Act and regulations ·and the procedures followed in the ,Police Service Board jurisdktion. 'In this way, it is hoped tha't when lit becomes necessary to appoint a chairman there w-ill be avaHahle a County Court judge who has had experience in the office of deputy chairman. I am sure this appointment will lift the status of the Police Service Board, not only in the interests of the Government, but also lin the interests of policemen. I am sure the IF·olice Association will be delighted with this proposal.

Pqlice Regulation [24 MARCH, 1971.] (Amendment) Bill 4349

As I have -said previously, members of the Opposition :accepted the St. Johnston report which followed a thorough examination into the shortcomings of the Victo~ia Police Force. It is hoped that this measure is not only a start towards the implementation of the recommendations of that report but also evidence ,of the Government'-s intention to implement the whole of the report in the not-too-distant fU'ture.

Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-Members -of the Country Party support the Bill. The debate on the St. Johnston report has already covered two of the proposals contained in the measure. It is gratifying to know that provision is being made to allow for the appointment of up to five assistant com'missioners. However, as the Deputy Leader of the Opposition pointed 'Out, no information has b~en given :about the necessary housmg for the two additional assistant commissioners; nor has any statement been made about the source whence their salaries are to flow and other information regarding proposed improved condit1ions within the Victoria Police Force. It is essenUal that provision should be made f.or these matters. It is all very well to provide the m-ach'inery for the appointment of additional top-level administrators within the f.orce, but some groundwork must be undertaken toO allow them to carry out saNsfactorily the task for which they :are appointed. I presume that they ,are to beappointed in the near future. Members of the Co~nt:ry p.arty trust that the Government will go ahead with this proposal which wa.s so strongly recommended by Colonel Sir Erk St. Johnston and by 'so doing improve conditions fior members of the f.orce regardless of their rank.

The amendment, which will allow a 'member of :the force who w-ishes to resign to give only one month's notjce of his intention, instead of three montns' notice as at present, is also a step in tl1e right direction. It must have been irksome to some former meplbers of the force to go throqgh

this wastage period of three months' service with the force knowing fun well that their hearts and souls were not in the job and that they could have been earning more money in the field which they had decided to enter. I know of one former member of the force who resigned for health reasons and who arranged to' take up an occupation in Queensland more suitable to his state of health. He had to sit out a period of three months in Vlict.oria because of the provision in the P.olice Regulation Act which is now being amended. The proposed reduction to one 'month's notice will be of considerable help to members who f.or v,arious reasons decide toO leave the force.

The remainling provision, which deals with the appoint,ment of a deputy chairman of the Police Service Board, is worthy of commendation, if it lis to be a permanent appointment. As -clause 4 lis dra~ted, it appears to be ,only a temporary appointment, but I take it that in practice an appointee will carry on until the resignation or ,retirement of the deputy chair,man and then another County Court judge will be 'appointed to the vacancy. This situation will improve the status of the Police Service Board, and engender a great deal of confidence in those members of the force whO' appear before the board, for whatever reason it may be. If :the right appointment is made, members of the force will be encouraged to perform their duties in a more responsible manner than they have in the past. If they are before the board for disciplinary reasons, I believe this will create a better image of the members .of the force in the eyes of the public of Victoria, and between individual members of the force as they go about their various duties.

The Country Party, which strongly supports the Bill, urges the Government to provide adequate finance and buildings to house the newlyappointed assistant commissioners who will be required to bear some of the work load of the present Chief

4350 Police Regulation [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

Commissioner and the assistant commissioners. We trust that by doing so, the status and standing of the Victoria Police Force will be considerably improved.


and committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2, relating to the appoint

ment of assistant commissioners. Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-I

wish to comment briefly on clause 2. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition referred to the fact that this measure did not make additional provision for the staff, and so on, of the new assistant commissioners who are to be appointed. I point out to the honorable member that this Bill amends the parent Act, the Police Regulation Act. The prime purpose of the Bill is to authorize the increase of the establishment by the appointment of two new assistant commissioners. The parent Act does not make specific reference in sta tutory terms to the ancillary staff as members of the Public Service or members of the Police Force who are required to~ help the assistant commissioners. It is not necessary to elaborate on that in an amending Bill of this type. It will be a ,matter of administrative rather than legislative support, in line with the normal routine of Public Service appointments when it is necessary to provide civilian staff to assist the police.

I assure the Deputy Leader of the Opposition 'and the Deputy Leader of the Country Party, that if this Bill passes through this House and another place, it is the Government's intention to proceed immediately with its implementation.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I thank the Chief Secretary for his explanation and no~ doubt the fears of the Opposition have been allayed on the subject of staff for the new assistant commissioners.

Mr. SHILTON (Midlands).-AIthough I do not wish to delay the debate longer than is necessary, I

point out that whilst this measure means that the number of assistant commissioners will be increased from three to' five, if the Government is serious in its intention to increase the over-all strength of the Police Force, this amending legislation will increase the authorized strength by only two. The Government is only windowdressing. It is adopting the cheapest portion of Colonel Sir Eric st. Johnston's report and saying, "We will promote two superintendents or inspectors to the rank of assistant commissioner". It may cost something like $3,000 a year, but the authorized strength of the force has not been increased by even the two extra men who will be appointed.

The clause was agreed to, as was clause 3.

Clause 4 (Appointment of deputy chairman of Police Service Board.)

Mr. JONA (Hawthorn).-I wish to refer briefly to the matter raised by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition about the situation of the Police Service Board following the appointment of a deputy chairman. I seek clarification from the Minister that the deputy chairman will not be 'a permanent member of the board, but will be entitled to attend meetings of the board only when the chairman is unable to attend. That is my understanding of the situation. I seek clarification from the Minister on this point.

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-For the information of the honorable member for Hawthorn, the deputy chairman would be acting only in the absence of the chairman.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-I am most interested to know who will be the deputy chairman.

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-At this stage it is not appropriate to supply the information in question. The Government will wait for the Bill to be passed before it acts, but I assure the honorable member for Brunswick West that he will be duly informed when the Government has


made a decision. It would not be proper for the Government or myself to anticipate the will of Parliament.



MARKETING OF PRIMARY PRODUCTS (AMENDMENT) BILL.

This Bill was received frDm the Council and, on the motion 'Of Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power), was read a first time.

JUSTICES (SERVICE OF SUMMONSES) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Council and, on the motion of 'Mr. REID (Attorney-General), was read a first time.

COUNTY COURT (JURISDlCTION) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 17) on the motion of Mr. Reid (Attorney-General) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-The purpose of this short Bill is to amend the County Court Act in relation to 'its criminal jurisdiction and to contempt of the court. It is always proper that dignity should be maintained in a court of law and if a person misbehaves himself in a court he should explain his conduct to the court. The Bill amends the principal Act to give the County Court jurisdiction to try persons ,charged with offering bribes to members of the Police Force or of the Public Service. Fortunately in Victoria this is an uncommon criminal charge, but ,a SDmewhat similar ,case is proceeding at present. The Attorney-General explained to the House that because of the archaic provisions in the principal Act there is a grave doubt whether the County CDurt has jurisdiction to try a person charged with

attempting to bribe a member of the Police Force Dr 'Of the Public Service. In explaining this provision the Attorney-General said-

As a result, some such cases have had to be removed into the Supreme Court, although they are not generally cases which warrant the attention of the court. Furthermore, their removal has the effect of delaying a hearing for some months.

I should have thought that such a serious charge ought to be tried in the Supreme Court but apparently the Attorney.General is of the opinion that some of these ,cases 'could be heard before a County Court judge and jury. In 'Order to save the court embarrassment through lack of jurisdiction, this provision has been included in the Bill and members of the Labor iParty are pleased to suppDrt it.

Other provisions in the Bill deal with ,contempt of court, and people summoned to be examined as witnesses in criminal proceedings Dr appeals. If such a person does not appear or if in the opinion of the judge he appears but is guilty of wilful prevaricatiDn the court has power to fine him or to commit him to gaol.

The Bill also refers to people who are contemptuous in the face of the court or towards the registrar or the bailiff, and to persons who wilfully interrupt proceedings of the court. Fortunately, there is no such provision for people who interrupt proceedings in this Chamber. In future, a person who interrupts proceedings in the County Court will speedily be dealt with in the manner prescribed in the Bill.

Members. of the Labor Party offer no objection to the measure and we hope that after its passage the Attorney-General will better be able to cause the courts under his charge to ,carry out their multifarious functions as they ought to be carried out.

Mr. MACLELLAN (Gippsland 'West) .-1 support the Bill because I believe all the provisions it contains

4352 Cot{nty ·Court [ASSEMBL Y.] (Jurisdiction) Bill.

are necessary. The Bill enlarges the scope of the jurisdiction of the County Court in two fundamental respects and I am delighted to learn that it is supported by the Labor 'Party. This is an aspect of :its policy that the Labor Party ought to advertise better and to which wider distribution .ought to be given because the Labor Party is supporting the giving of power to the County Court to protect itself against contemptuous and disruptive attacks. Too often the Labor Party does not show this enthusiasm. II am delighted to say that the honorable member for Brunswick West has done an excellent job for his party in rebuilding its image and making it known that that party has SoQme concern for the procedures of the law and the dignity of the courts.

It is of no use saying that offences of the type referred to in the Bill cannot occur in Victoria because they have occurred not far from here. I refer honorable members to a report in the Age of 23rd March of an incident in Sydney. That report states-

Police yesterday had to escort a prosecutor from a special Federal court in Sydney to protect him from hostile demonstrators. Two policemen were injured in ·a melee outside the court.

A man and his wife were forcibly evicted from the courtroom and another man was told to leave for interjecting during the hearing.

That report is mirrored in another report in the Australian under the headlines cc Two Police Hurt -in Brawl outside Court." Anyone reading these reports will quickly identify the 'Subject-'matter of the case as one concerning national service, a subject close to the heart of the left wing of the Labor Party.

Mr. CURNow.-What does the honorable member mean by the left wing?

Mr. MACLELLAN.-I do not know whether the honorable member for }{ara }{ara is identifying

himself with the left wing. 1 am delighted to learn that the Labor Party is shoQwing its concern foQr the law and is dissociating itself from the sort of behavioQr that has marred many court hearings. Thankfully, Victoria has not witnessed any serious incidents of this type in its superior courts but there have been cases -in courts conducted by magistrates.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-1 raise a point of order, Mr. Speaker. 1 submit that the honorable member is speaking about a matter which is completely irrelevant to the Bill. The incident to which he referred took place in Sydney and the honorable member was speaking of a Commonwealth jurisdiction, apparently a Court of Petty Sessions. The Bill deals with the County Court in this State and I suggest that the debate should be limited to that court.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Chdstie).-Order! I cannot uphold the point of order. 1 think the honorable member is using the point as an illustration, and 1 suggest that he speak closely to the Bill and not follow some of the avenues he has embarked upon.

Mr. MACLELLAN (GippslaQd West) .-1 do not wish to test your ruling, Sir, but I was referring--

The SPEAKER.-Order! The honorable member has well-established machinery for disagreeing with my ruling. If he disagrees with my ruling he should use it; otherwise he should continue his speech.

Mr. MACLELLAN.-.....:I do not disagree in any way with your ruling, Mr. Speaker. I merely used the illustration beoause appeals from Magistrates Courts are taken to the County Court, and if an incident should occur in any court it is likely that t~e incident could be repeated in another court. 1 shall not continue at length, but it is a serious matter that this sort of behaviour should occur . in any court. The Bill is

County Court [24 MARCH, 1971.] (JWisdiction) Bill. 4353

specifica,lly intended to give power to the County Court to de~l with such incidents. Whether these incidents will occur rests with those people who resort to this type of protest, and it is to be hoped that, with the support Of the Government and the Opposition in this place and, I hope, the support of aU sections of the community, the people of this country will no longer tolerate this sort of behaviour in· any court, whether it is a Magistrates Court, the County Court, the Supreme Court, or any Federal court.

Today marks a milestone in our relations with the law because honorable members have had a clear statement from a member of the Opposition that it supports this kind of measure. That has not been done in a half-hearted way, but completely. This is a red letter day for those people who have been seeking this assurance for so long.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds). -In a snide reference to the Labor Par.ty and the Opposition in this Chamber, the honorable member for Gippsland West has related this Bill to circumstances similar to those which apply in the Commonwealth jurisdiction when national service offenders are being dealt with. I take the greatest objeotion to the honorable member's references to the Labor Party and to the various "wings" which the honorable member considers are attached to that party. I can see no reason for the provocative remarks made by the honorable member.

The Bill proposes amendments to the County Cour.t Act 1958, -and the Opposition's case was clearly and lucidly put by my distinguished colleague, the honorable member for Brunswick West. My party is not opposing the Bill and my colleagues who will follow me will support that point of view. I cannot understand why the honorable m'ember for Gippsland West has taken the opportunity of using the debate on this Bill as a means to attack the Opposition. Over a long period the

Labor Party, both in Government and in Opposition, has supported the rule of law. If the Government in its wisdom, or lack of it, decides to amend an Act of Parliament, the Opposition gives the matter its consideration and with a deliberate, stated view announces its intentions.

Mr. DUNSTAN.-Does the honorable member apply his remarks to the law?

Mr. EDMUNDS.-I state oategorically that the Opposition supports the law. This aUitude has been sustained over a long period. Objections have been taken to ,certain attitudes t·aken in the Commonwealth jurisdiction. The Opposition, as a responsible party in the community, has certain reservations about national service. This Bill deals with an entirely different jurisdiction. Again I return to the attitude of the honorable member for Gippsland West who, by innuendo, suggested that the Opposition was not supporting the Bill.

Honorable members interjecting. M·r. EDMUNDS.-Noise em,anates

from the Government benche's. However, I carefully listened to the contribution to the debate made by the honoflable member for Gippsland We.st and I state categorically that he applied a false label to the Opposition, whose position had been clearly stated by the honorable member for Brunswick West.

The provisions of this Bill contain certain implication's. Clause 3 provides for :a new section 54A of the principal Act, of which sub-section (1) provides, inter alia..-

If any person-(a) wilfully insults threatens interferes

with or obstructs any judge juror registrar bailiff clerk or officer of the court in or in the vicinity of the court or any judge who is going to or returning from court; or

These are m'aHers to which the honorable member for Gippsland West referred in his snide a Uack on the Opposition. ,Members of my party support the Bill and cannot understand how the honorable member

4354 County Court [ASSEMBLY.] (JurisdiCtion) Bill.

for Gipps1and West could have had the audacity to use this debate for the purpose of attacking us.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I listened with great .in terest to the remarks of the honorable member for Gippsland West when, under the guise of debating thi'S proposed legislation, he referred to incidents which occurred in a court in New South Wales. I should have thought that such incidents had little relevance to the Bill. The honorable member is concerned, as stated by the Attorney-General in his secondreading speech, that "doubts have been expre'Ssed concerning the jurisdiction 'Of the CDunty Court t'O try persons charged with offering bribes to members of the Police Force or public ,servants ". The concern arises from the wording of a paragraph which the honorable gentleman quoted. As a result, it is proposed that certain cases will be removed to the Supreme Court although they a're not ca'Ses generally handled by that court or warrant .its attention. Charges that bribes have been offered toO members of the Police Force or to public servants are serious, and whether they are matters for the Supreme Court or the County Court is of Httle consequence to the alleged offence. Having regard to the effect that pUblicity which surrounds the trial of a public servant or a police officer for accepting bribes has upon the Public Service Dr the Police Force, I should think that whether the trial was heard in the Supreme Court or the County Court would be of small moment. As a layman, I do not believe the Attorney-General sufficiently explained the difference in effect of hearing a case in the County Court rather than in the Supreme Court.

The honorable gentleman went on to say-

One of the exceptions is that set out in paragraph (d) of sub-section (1), namely-

Offences against the Queen's title prerogative person or government or against either House of Parliament.

In speaking 'Of either House of Parliament, it seems to me that a matter of privilege must be involved, and .I should think that the Parliament could deal adequately with it.

In view of what I have said about the effect of publicity upon the Public Service or upon the Police For,ce, I hope that when this measure and the foreshadowed amendment have been passed-and my party offers no opposition to them-a degree of discretion will be vested in the County Court judges to enable ·cases such as these to be heard with the least possible pUblicity.

In his second-reading explanatory speech, the Attorney-General continued-

Clause 3 proposes the substitution for section 54 of the principal Act of two new sections, namely, 54 and 54A. The present section 54 deals with contempt of court, and the proposed admendments have been recommended by the judges of the County Court, who consider that the existing provisions are inadequate to deal with interference with the administration of justice in the courts and in the precincts of the courts.

The proposed new section 54 re-enac~s ~he existing provisions of section 54, omIttmg paragraphs (a), (b) and (f) of subsection (1) . The omitted paragraphs are included amongst the provisions of the proposed new section 54A. In the result, the new section 54 will cover refusals to appear in answer to a summons or to produce documents, refusals to be sworn or to answer lawful questions and wilful prevarication. The provision for a judge to deal with contempt of this kind and the other provisions contained in the new section 54 are identical with the existing corresponding provisions, other than the maximum fine referred to therein.

I believe that statement should have been more fully explained for the benefit of laymen ·in this Chamber. ,Jt seems to contain a contradiction, although the same can be said about many other highly technical and legal measures which are introduced by the Attorney-General. The explanation provided is not sufficiently complete or in sufficiently simple terms to enable honorable members properly to understand the Bill.


Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Leader of the Country Party) .-The Country Party supports the Bill; in fact, it was not my intention or that of any member of my party to take part in the debate, because we believe that the Bill has been adequately explained by the Attorney-General and adequately debated by the honorable member for Brunswick West.

I have risen to say how regrettable and unnecessary it was for the honorable 'member for Gippsland West to confine his ·contribution to the debate to insults of the Opposition. If the Opposition had made an issue of national service cases, I would have been the first to have joined the debate, but it did not do that and, for that reason, it did not deserve what was said in the unfortunate remarks which were made. The Country Party is of the view that the House will benefit if a vote is taken on this measure immediately.

Mr. SHILTON (Midlands).-I should like to support the remarks of the honorable member for Brunswick West and to take issue with what was said by the honorable member for Gippsland West in his attack upon the Opposition.

As I am a member of the Opposition, I must be 'included in what was said by the honorable member for Gippsland West, and I take the strongest possible exception to any suggestion that I am -in any way against law and order. As is wellknown, I have been responsible for the maintenance of law and order in this State for a period of 22 years. In that time I have never had an occasion to reproach any member of the Opposition for offending against law and order.

I commend this proposed legislation, because it upholds the majesty of law and order and the rights of individuals and officials in the County Court; it also protects the rights Of individuals to go about their lawful

business freely. The Opposition supports the Bill completely. The Opposition will always criticize repressive legislation, and if the provisions of this measure were of that kind, the Opposition would oppose them. If that is what the honorable member for Gippsland West had in mind when he criticized the Opposition, .J forgive him for he knows no better. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. FORDHAM (Footscray).-As a new member .of P.arliament, I also take i'Ssue with the honorable member for Gippsland West and the attitude he has di,splayed towards the Opposition during :the debate on this measure. The issue st'arted as a minor matter relating to the County Court and, as the Leader of the Country Party rightly 'said, the honorable member for Gippsland West unfairly used the debate as a vehicle with which to attack the Opposition.

The Opposition has made its position quite clear, namely, that it supports the measure and the principles behind it. To allow the sort of situation which has ari'Sen as a result of the remarks of the honorable member for Gippsland West does great discredit to Parliament. Attacks on left-wingism and the National Service Act have no place in a debate on a measure of this sort. I am quite happy, on the right !issue and in the right venue, to debate with the honorable member for Gippsland West the issues to which he has alluded. I trust that the Gove'rnment wiH not use every oppor.tunity that arises in the future to attack the Opposition. The Labor p.arty supports the Bill and hopes that it succeeds in improving law and order in this State.


and committed. Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to.

Clause 3 (Contempt of Court).

4356 County Court [ASSElV1BL Y.] (Jurisdiction) Bill.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Subsection (1) of proposed new section 54 reads-

( 1) If any person-(a) having been summoned personally or

in such other manner as is directed by the rules and having been paid or tendered a reasonable sum for travelling expenses and subsistence refuses or neglects without sufficient cause to appear or to produce any books deeds papers or writings required by the summons to be produced; or

(b) being summoned or examined as a witness in any criminal proceeding, appeal, action or matter or being present in court and required to give evidence refuses to be sworn or to answer any lawful question; or

(c) in the opinion of the judge is guilty of wilful prevarication-

the judge may direct the apprehension of any s1!ch pers0!1 and if he thir:tks fit may commit hIm to prison for any tIme not exceeding one month or may impose on him a fine of not more than $100 for every such offence and in default of immediate payment thereof may comm~t the offender to gaol for a period not exceedmg one month unless such fine is sooner paid.

The question of notice to the person concerned is not referred to in proposed new section 54. This afternoon, the Opposition raised with the Attorney-General the matter of a person who was gaoled without trial and allegedly without notHication from the Law Department or frOom his own solicitor who claims that he could not be located.

In similar circumstances, under the Bill, a judge will still ·be empowered to gaol a person although, on the allegation which appeared in the Age newspaper today, a person need not be notified by the Law Department to appear and to produce the subject-matter referred to in par.agraphs (b) and (c) which I have just quoted. Consequently, he may find himself in the same position as the unfortunat~ person referred to in today's press. Whether the person had a criminal record is of no consequence. The fact is that he finds himself in gaol without a trial.

If this legislation does not provide for a person to be notified by the Law Department or some other responsible authority, the weakness, which the M:inister is endeavouring to correct, will still exist. I hope that this is not so and that my fears a're completely wrong because of what took place as reported in the Age new,spaper today and again in tonight's Herald. The Opposition is concerned that this could happen under the present measure and wants to ensure that this is not possible.

Mr. REID (AttorneY-General).I appreciate the point raised by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. Probably the honorable member is· distressing himself unnecessarily because the measure is aimed at dealing with people who commit a contempt of oourt in circumstances that are known as "in the face of the court". I do not think any question of notice actually arises.

'I appreciate the point raised by the honorable member and I shall exam:ine the clause to see if there is any inadequacy involved. For that reason, I suggest that progress should be reported.


ADJOURNMENT. TEACHING SERVICE: DISCIPLINARY

ACTION AGAINST TEACHERS-STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION: INDUSTRIAL nISPUTE AT MORWELLEDUCATION DEPARTMENT: ELTHAM HIGH SCHOOL: MONTAGUE SPECIAL SCHOOL-HEALTH ACT: SUGGESTED AMENDMENT OF SCHEDULE THREE -HOUSING COMMISSION: ACTIVITIES IN DANDENONG ELECTORATEWOOL . ,INDUSTRY: SALES AT GEEL'ONG AND PORTLAN])---JMuNICIPALITIES: REMOVAL OF DERELICT CARS.'

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).I move-

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday next, at half-past Two o'clock.

The moNon was agreed to. Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-


Adjournment. [24 MARCH, 1971.] Adjournment~ 4357

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-I bring a m·atter t'O the attention of the ·Minister of Education and of this House, .first, by way of protest. My protest on behalf of the Opposition is that approximately half an hour ago, as a result of a request I made to the Minister of Educ-ation, I was gliven a copy of a press statement released by the honorable gentleman late this afternoon and a copy of regulations promulgated under the Teaching Service Act dealing with the Teaching Service (Long S~rvice Leave) Regulations.

I understand, on advice tendered to me by a member of the press gallery, that the Minister at 5.30 p.m. today, by regulation, had sought to give himself power so that a teacher who unjustifiably absents himself without leave, or unjustifiably refuses or fails to carry out his duties, will forfeit one year of his service for the purposes of computation of his long service leave entitlement, and if he is reported twice in 'One year he wHI forfeit five years' service for the purpose of computati'On of his long service leave entitlement.

Prior t'O becoming a member of this House, I spent a lifetime in industrial tribunals of this State and this is the first occasion on which I have heard of the Government or a Minister seeking to use the concept of long service leave as a weapon in an indust'rial dispute. It is wrong for the Government or the Minister to deny long service leave to the teachers. The Government has made the .long service leave regul1ations punitive. It is a disgrace for the Minister to deprive the worker in any Government department of his right to strike. I have never heard of such a punitive concept, and I regard it as beneath contempt fO'r this gutless and witless Miriister--

Mr. REID (Chief Secretary).-I rise to a point of order, Mr. Speaker, and I direct your attention to the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition, which are entirely unparliamentary.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The Leader of the Opposition will withdraw the remarks.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-I will withdraw, and say that the Minister is lacking in courage and lacking in wit. For a Minister to' m'ove by way of regulation iis an abuse of the processes 'Of this Parliament. If the Minister 'and the Government felt as strongly as presumably they do, I should have thought it appropriate f'Or the Minister :at the proper time-he would have been accorded Hme-to make 'a full :statement to the House setting out the attitude of the Government and telling the Parliament what he wanted to do.

I heard about the implementation of this regulation by accident from the press. I had to seek a copy from the Minister. I also learned from the Leader of the third party in this House, the Country Party, that he has not been accO'rded the courtesy of a copy of the press statement and the regulation.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The Leader of the Opposition has one more minute.

Mr. HOLDING.-In the one minute, Mr. Speaker, I condemn the Minister for his action. He is going to reduce the education system in Victoria to a state of industrial anarchy. I condemn him fO'r his failure to grant the usual courtesies to the members of the Opposition, the Leader of the Country Party, and more importantly, to the Parliament. Finally, through this Parliament I ask the teachers of Victoria not to compound the stupidity of the Minister and take the sO'rt of action that they will be provoked to take. I believe I am not in breach of any Standing Orders when I say that despite the Minister's lack of courtesy to the House it is the intention of the Opposition at the first available opportunity to move that this regulation be disallowed in order that the House 'can debate the matter fully. I oondemn the Minister for failing to adopt the procedure of allowing this


matter to' be ventilated in this Hause instead of promulgating it by regulation through the back door.

Mr. HAYES (Scoresby).-I wish to direct attentian to an industrial situation that tomorrow and on Friday will inconvenience most of Victoria because 150 people at Morwell, in defiance of their union and the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission, have decided to strike. I am concerned that hundreds of thousands of Victorians will lose pay and that productivity-which, a's country members are aware, will affect the cost-price squeeze-will be lost.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member for Scoresby should indicate what the strike is and what action he wishes the Government to take.

Mr. HA YES.-I have indicated to the House that a power strike will take place tomorrow and on Friday.

Mr. HOLDING.-How do you know?

Mr. HA YES.-Because it has been published in the daily newspapers. Many people will be inconvenienced.

The SPEAKER.-The honorable member should not make a set speech but should call on the Government to do something.

Mr. HAYES.-I ask the Government and the Minister for Fuel and Power to consider what action can be taken in terms of conditions of employment. One hundred and fifty people who will not abide by their own union or decisions of the arbitration commission should not be permitted to throw Victoria into chaos.

Mr. DOUBE (Albert Park).-I wish to refer to the second amendment adopted by the Governor in Council regarding the teachers.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! Does this refer to the matter raised by the Leader of the OpPOSition?

Mr. DOUBE.-Iam referring to regulation No. 62, and the Leader af the Opposition referred to regulation No. 61.

The SPEAKER.-lt is a well established rule that the same subject may not be alluded to by two honorable members on the motion for the adjournment of the sitting.

Mr. FELL (Greensborough).-I direct the attention of the Government and the Minister of Education as a matter of urgency to the situation at the Eltham High School in the Greensborough electorate. It is strictly related to a question that was asked without notice in the House and answered by the Minister of Education. A meeting was held at the school last night and today and I have been given a clear mandate on behalf of my electorate to raise this matter in Parliament.

The reply of the Minister of Education was couched in such terms as 1:0 represent a direct insult to members of the teaching profession at that school. It 'could be inferred that in fact a teacher who came to that school from a university suffered a nervous breakdown because every time she came into the class-room the other teachers at that school walked out of the room.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member for Greensborough may not make a set speech on the motion for the adjournment of the sitting. I suggest that he call on the Executive Government for action.

Mr. FELL.-I request your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, but that is my intention. I ask the Minister to clarify the situation by apologizing for any reflection that has been cast on the school, its pupils and its staff. On behalf of the staff at the El tham High School I ask the Minister for an unqualified withdrawal of his remarks and for an apology to the school.


Mr. WILTON (Broadm·eadows).I direct the attention of the Minister of Health to a matter which is of considerable importance to the Broadmeadows council. On 9th June, 1970, on behalf of the council I wrote to the honorable gentleman's predecessor asking that phenoxy acetic acid chemical be added to Schedule Three of the Health Act. The honorable gentleman acknowledged my letter and informed me that the matter would be placed in the hands of the Chief Health Officer and that I would be advised of the decision. On 16th September, 1970, I wrote to the present Minister of Health inquiring about this matter. I received no acknowledgement of my letter. I again raised the matter in this House on 10th December, 1970, in the debate on the Estimates and drew the honorable gentleman's attention to the fact that this matter was still outstanding.

The Broadmeadows City Council is most concerned that it has not had a final decision from the department. It is anxious that the schedule should be amended to include the chemical because it is directly involved in the manufacture of certain products in the agricultural field. It is produced by the company known as Nufarm Pty. Ltd. with which the Minister is no doubt familiar because of the considerable trouble that the Broadmeadows council has had and the tremendous amount 'of inconvenience with which many residents in the Fawkner district have had to contend as the result of its operations. I ask the honorable gentleman to take steps to have the schedule amended to include the chemical to which I refer.

Mr. LIND (Dandenong).-I direct to the attention of the House, and particularly the Minister of Housing, the deplorable rate of building of Housing Commission homes in Dandenong and seek an assurance from the Minister that he will try to expedite the construction of these homes. This is by far the greatest problem in Dandenong electorate, including

Noble Park and Springvale. In the past five years, only 200-odd houses have been built. There are 50 or so houses under construction which will complete a beautiful estate for which we are grateful. I know that further land has been bought at Hampton Park, which is in the electorate of Dromana, and in the Narre Warren area. Our concern is that no announcement has been made about the planning of these estates. If construction continues at the present rate of about 200 in five years, the people of this area will remain in a pretty sorry position.

Almost 700 families are on the waiting list for homes in Dandenong, and I should like to see these families, particularly the larger families, given the opportunity to get out of the unsatisfactory, crowded and expensive accommodation which they occupy. Only last week I managed to get a home-it was the only home available -f'or a deserted wife and her children. The rent started off at $30 a week, but eventually we got it down to $25. This situation is very much to be regretted, and I implore the Minister of Housing to make a special effort in the Dandenong area, which is probably the most rapidly-growing area in the State.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North).I wish to raise with the Premier a serious doubt which has arisen in Geelong recently in regard to the over-all security and welfare of people in the area.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! Is this a matter for the Premier?

Mr. TREZISE.-Yes, it is. As a prelude, I point out that recently there has been a large number of dismissals from long-established woollen mills because of lack of orders. I realize this has nothing to do with the Premier directly-

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-It has nothing to do with me.

The SPEAKER.-Order! The honorable member for Geelong North would assist the Chair if he indicated quickly

4360 Adjournment. [ASSEMBL Y.] Adjournment.

the Government administration to which he refers and directed his remarks to the Minister responsible.

Mr. TREZISE.-I will put it briefly in the form of a question. I point out to the Premier that representations have been made to the Australian Wool Board that consideration should be given to terminating wool selling at Geelong and Portland. Therefore, in the interests of the citizens whom I represent, 1 ask the Premier, because 1 understand this matter is in his hands, to give an assurance that he will not allow this to be done while he is the leader of this State.

Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown).-I address my remarks to the Minister representing the Minister for Local Government. This is not a calamitous matter; it is just a prosaic, ordinary question, whether the Premier likes it or not. The honorable gentleman comes into the House late at night and informs honorable members that they can speak on the Supply debate.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member for Williamstown would assist the Chair and the House by stating briefly the department and the problem concerned.

Mr. FLOYD.-The Premier will not allow honorable members to speak on the motion for the adjournment of the sitting.

The SPEAKER.----Order! Without any preamble, the honorable member for Williamstown should state his problem of Government administration.

Mr. FLOYD.-It is a prosaic and ordinary question which no doubt will bring a sarcastic reply. I wish to ask whether, when the Minister for Local Government is again a member of Parliament, it will be possible to introduce legislation to allow municipalcouncils to get rid of derelict cars-there have been hundreds in Williamstown-which are left in the streets, without the municipality having to meet the cost of advertising

for the owners and fot disposing of these vehicles. If this were done, the municipalities would save a lot of money.

Mr. DOUBE (Albert Park).-I wish to raise a question which concerns the Minister of Education. I refer to correspondence which has passed between the Minister and myself regarding land which was available at the rear of Montague Special School in Montague. As honorable members are aware, this school caters for children who are mentally retarded and for whose education the Education Department is responsible. As the honorable member for Williamstown points out, it is a marvellous school. It has been operating for a long time and ca ters for children from a large area of the metropolitan district, including many of the electorates represented by members of the Government party.

The school is situated on a small block of land. Recently, an opportunity arose to purchase vacant land at the rear of the school. When the Minister was approached he .inquired into the proposal and indicated that the cost-some $170,000-was considered by the Education ·Department to be too high. 1 raise this matter publicly because I know that most honorable members are interested in the welfare and education of mentally retarded children, particularly 'as this school serves a large part of the metropolitan district. 1 should like the Minister to consider reviewing his decision on this matter, because if this opportunity of acquiring the land is lost it will not be available again and these children will be ·confined to the small area which the school now occupies.

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-1 am prepared to reexamine the matter mentioned by the honorable member for Albert Park, but 1 did look at it closely previously. The major problem is that it would cost a considerable amount to purchase t~e land at the rear of the Montague Special ·School.


I inform the honorable member for Greensborough that the school concerned was not Eltham High School. I did not mention the name of the school because of the fear of further reprisals against the girl concerned. I was making the point that it is difficult. to get graduates to go to these high schools because they hear of the Coventry-type treatment handed out by members of the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association to other graduates who have not had teacher training.

The Leader of the Opposition was liberal in personal insults but light in constructive argument. Over the past two or three years there have been frequent interruptions at secondary schools. This is the method used by the present executive of the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association. Wherever I go, parents throughout Victoria comment caustically on the tactics of this organization. The Victorian Secondary Teachers Association says, "Unless you are prepared to carry out our demands, we will go about wrecking your best schools." As a result of this attitude, parents and citizens throughout the State have demanded that the Government should provide some form of incentive for teachers to give continuity of service so that the education of their children is not consistently and persistently interrupted by tactics that are completely unjustified and set a shocking example to the riSing generation.

This subordinate legislation, which was considered by the Government's legal advisers to be appropriate, was introduced to ensure that high schools not only remain open but have a sufficient number of teachers on duty so that pupils may be taught. In other words, the department is giving encouragement to the vast majority o.f teachers, who are dedicated people carrying out their job regularly, consistently, and with a sense of responsibility. These regulations could be described as

Session 1971.-158

subordinate legislation designed to give students a chance to obtain an ,education.

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health).-I assure the honorable member for Broadmeadows that he will receive a reply next week.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing).-The honorable member for Dandenong has sought an increase in the number of houses being built in Dandenong. The Housing Commission has a considerable demand for accommodation all over the State and must endeavour to be fair to all sections of the community. Many commission houses have already been built in Dandenong, which has a certain turnover of people. The current building programme is well under way and I hope when the new CommonwealthState Housing Agreement is finally agreed to, Victoria will succeed in its current representations so that the housing programme may be increased.

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer).-The honorable member for Geelong North posed the problem of the continuance of Geelong as a wool-selling centre. I was delighted to know that the honorable member appealed to the Government, which has some real influence in these matters, to intercede on behalf of Geelong. I refer the honorable member to the Government's attitude towards the woolselling centre of Portland where the Government stood firm against the buyers' pressure which had determined that Portland would not be a wool-selling centre. The Government is not parochial in these matters. It will guarantee that Geelong and P.ortland will continue as woolselling centres so long as it is the Government. If necessary, the Government will introduce legislation to preserve that right.

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power).-The matter raised by the honorable member for Scoresby

4362 Adjournment. [COUNCIL.] Police Regulation (Amendment) Bill.

is more within the ambit of the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission than that of either the Government or the State Electricity Commission of Victoria. Last week the Federated EngineDrivers and Firemen's Association made a claim to the -commission for an increase in the shift allowance payment. Mr. Commissioner Brack brought down a determination for an additional $1.25, which, added to the existing rate of $3, ·made it $4.25. I understand that the State branch of the Federated Engine Drivers and Firemen's Association accepted the determination, but a group of men employed in the open-cut at Morwell claimed that the amount was not sufficient and refused to accept it. They went out on strike, and at 6 a.m. today it was unfortunately necessary to' shed some power. This resulted in people and industry being put to some inconvenience.

A meeting was held at 3 p.m. today at which a motion was put that the determination of the commissiDner should be accepted. The meeting rejected the motion. The men at Morwell are still out on strike and a further ·meeting is to be held at 3 p.m. on Friday.

At 9 a.m. today, Mr. Commissioner Deverall called the parties into conference. I do not know the text of what ensued, but I assume that as a result of the meeting this afternoon further action will be taken tomorrow morning. Both the State Electricity Commission and I regret that people will be put at a serious disadvantage tomorrow.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport).-The honorable member for Williamstown asked a question relating to the jurisdiction of the Minister for Local G'Overnment. I am going t'O disappoint the honorable member because he said he expected a sarcastic answer. I assure him that would be quite inappropriate, and I will not even try to think of one.

I simply say that there is a Minister for Local Government, and the problems associated with derelict cars at Williamstown will be drawn to the attenti'On of the honorable gentleman.

The motion was agreed t'O.

The House adjourned at 9.55 p.m., until Tuesday, March 30.

iIltgislntiut C!tnuutil. Tuesday, March 30, 1971.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett) took the chair at 4.50 p.m., and read the prayer.


FUND) BILL. This Bill was received from the

Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister without P'Ortfoli'O), was read a first time.


This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works), was read a first time.

EDUCATION. SCHOOL EXCURSIONS: SAFETY 'OF

CHILDREN. The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH

(Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

Concerning out-of-school excursions organized and supervised by teachers for both private and State primary and secondary schools, respectively-(i) does the Education Department encourage these excursions; if so, in what priority; (ii) what instructions (if any) are laid down to ensure the safety of children; (iii) who accepts the general liability for the safety of the children in the


event of injury or accident involving any claim for damage; and (iv) have any such instances occurred; if so, who was found to be liable in each instance for what amount and was the claim satisfied?


(i) The provision of 'a limited number of educational and sporting excursions is encouraged. Priority is determined by the school concerned.

(ii) There must be a sufficient number of teachers accompanying the pupils to provide adequate supervision. Individual schools may give more detailed instructions and may require the prior consent of parents to the obtaining of medical assistance if deemed necessary by the teacher in charge.

(iii) Such excursions would be regarded by the Education Department as part of the school programme and teachers would be on official duty. The teacher is then in the same position as he is in the class-room or the schoolground, namely, that to sustain a claim for damages against him in the event of injury to a pupil it must be proved that he was negligent and that as a result the pupil was injured.

(iv) Summaries of departmental records do not indicate in all cases whether the injury occurred when the pupil was off school premises. There are no cases during 1966-70 in which the teacher has been held personally liable for injury at sport or on excursions.

Claims for damages have been made in two cases of injury at sport but these hav~ not been heard. In each of these the State of Victoria has been joined with the teacher who will, if necessary, have full legal support from the State.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. WARRACKNABEAL HIGH SCHOOL.

The Hon. B. P. DUNN (NorthWestern Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

(a) When will tenders be called for proposed renovations of the limestone section of the Warra'cknabeal High School?

(b) When will work on the renovations commence?


(a) and (b) A comprehensive scheme and estimate for necessary works to the limestone building will be submitted at an early date to the Education Department for approval.

On approval tenders for these renovations will be called as soon as possible.

HADFIELD HIGH SCHOOL.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

(a) What provisions have been made to meet the requirements of personal hygiene in the existing toilet facilities at the Hadfield High School?

(b) Do these facilities meet the minimum requirements of the Broadmeadows City Council's health officer; if not, what are the deficiencies and what prevents their inclusion?


(a) Departmental policy is to provide toilets as a project progresses in stages. There are two stages left to be completeda library and an assembly hall, by which time the required number of toilets will be provided. Plans now being prepared for the library will provide accommodation of two toilets additional to existing facilities.

(b) Toilet facilities are provided in accordance with the Uniform Building Regulations and the School Regulations of the Department of Health.

HOSTEL AT BAIRNSDALE.

The Hon. D. ·E. KENT (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

Was the hostel operating several years ·ago at Bairnsdale for students attending senior forms at Bairnsdale High School conducted either under :the auspices of the Education Department or with departmental 'assistance; if not, will 'the Minister of Education inv'estigate whether ·the provision of a student hostel:at Bairnsdale would assist students from the outlying areas of northern and eastern Gippsl'and in completing ·their secondary education?


The hostel referred to was conducted by the Church of England with the aid of 'an annual Government subsidy.

Some years ago the question of establishment of 'a hostel at Orbost was investigated by the advisory council of the Orbost High School, but the result was incondusive.

4364 Questions [COUNCIL.] on Notice.

SCHOOL STAFF ACCOMMODATION.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

Of the $2 million promised by· the Premier in his policy speech to be provided for school staff accommodation-(i) how much has been spent to date; 'and (ii) how much is programmed to be spent this financial year?


For 1970-71, Treasury allocated $300,000 for school staff accommodation and as at 22nd March, 1971, $85,139 had been expended.

Contractual commitments total $379,425.

TEACHERS IN TRAINING.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

In respect of the Premier's claim in his policy speech that the number of secondary teachers in training had increased by 700 per cent-(i) what was Ithe base year; (ii) how many teachers were in training that year; 'and (iii) how many are in training this year?


(i) Base year 1954. (ii) Teachers in training 768. (1970

secondary students in training were 6,779. Percentage increase was 783 per cent).

(iii) In training this year (1971), 7,313.

RESIDENCE AT OMEO.

The Hon. D. ,E. KENT (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

Is the second Education Department residence proposed for Omeo to be built in the 1971-72 financial year?


Priorities for the erection of Education Department residences in 1971-72 have not yet been determined. It is not known whether an additional residence at Omeo will be included 'amongst those cases which are to proceed.

ECHUCA TECHNICAL SCHOOL.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

(a) What is the enrolment at the Echuca Technical School of-(i) full-time students; (ii) part-time students; and (iii) 'apprentices?

(b) Wh'at is the total number of teaching staff at the Echuca Technical School, stating the number of full-time arid part-time teachers, respectively?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works).-The answers are-

(a) (i) Full time, 585. (ii) Part time, 41. (iii) Apprentices, 152. Evening subject enrolments, 297. Equivalent full-time enrolments, 686.

(b) Full-time teachers, 37.· Part-time teachers, 12.

• Does not include principal 'and viceprincipal. Total teaching staff full time and part time equates to 43 full-time teachers.

COMMERCIAL GOODS VEHICLES ACT.

PRIMARY PRODUCER VEHICLES: ROAD MAINTENANCE CHARGES.

The Hon. B. P. DUNN (NorthWestern Province) asked the Minister without Portfolio-

In view of the economic problems confronting most primary producers, will the Government abolish road tax on all primary producer vehicles; if not, why?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister without Portfolio ).-The answer is-

There is no road tax in Victoria. The honorable member is no doubt referring to road maintenance charges payable under the provisions of :the Commercial Goods Vehicles Act.

The whole of the amount collected is paid to Ithe Country Roads Board and is expended on road maintenance. It is not intended to abolish these charges as ,the Government is advised that commercial road vehicles account for more than 90 per cent of the wear on road pavements.

The Government appreciaJtes the economic problems of primary producers and is doing whatever is within its power to assist them. It should be noted that many primary producers' vehicles are under 4 tons load capacity land are therefore not


liable for road maintenance charges. In the case of vehicles exceeding Ithis capacity, exemptions from paying the charges have been granted on a number of items of primary produce. These exemptions are listed in ,the Fourth Schedule of the Commercial Goods Vehicles Act and :apply not only to those goods when carried on the primary producer's own vehicle, but when other vehicles 'are carrying these commodities on his behalf.

LOCAL GOVERNM-ENT ACT. HASTINGS SHIRE COUNCIL: OFFENCES

AGAINST SECTIONS 53 AND 181.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister without Portfolio-

(a) Have any complaints been received alleging offences against sections 53 and/or 181 of the Local Government Act 1958 by certain of the councillors of the Hastings Shire Council; If so-(i) when were they received; 'and (ii) what action has been taken and when was it initiated and, if no action has been taken, what is the reason?

(b) Do any complaints lodged under eilther of these sections lapse after a given period of time; if so, what is the period of time in each instance?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister without Portfolio ).-The answers supplied by the Minister for Local Government are lengthy and I seek leave of the House to have them incorporated in Hansam. without my reading them.

Leave was granted, and the answers were as follows:-

(a) Yes.

(i) 12th August, 1969, 25th Auguslt, 1969, 17th September, 1969, 27th October, 1969, 10th November, 1969, 18th March, 1970, 23rd April, 1970, 3rd June, 1970, 8th June, 1970, 19th June, 1970, 25th June, 1970, 26th June, 1970, 29th June, 1970, 7th August, 1970, 17th August, 1970, 29th January, 1971, 2nd February, 1971, 4th February, 1971, 5th March, 1971.

(ii) In 'all appropriate cases, an initial investigation has been made as quickly as possible by an inspector of municipal accounts, and where further investigation seemed warranted the matter has been referred Ito the Crown Law Department. The only cases where no investigation has been made is where action has been barred by efflux ion of time.

(b) Yes'-: (i) The Limitation of Actions Act

-applies to any action for penalty under section 53 of the Local Governmentt Act -and requires action to be commenced within two years of -commission of the act giving rise to the liability.

(ii) Proceedngs in a matter concerning alleged offence ag-ainst section 181 of the Local Government Act must be commenced within twelve months of the date of the alleged offence. The Justices Act seotion 215 lapplies.

NEWMARKET SALE-YARDS. STOCK SALES.

The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Bendigo Province) asked the Minister without Portfolio-

How many stock (sheep and cattle, respectively) were yarded for sale at the Newmarket sale-yards during each of the past ten years?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister without Portfolio) .-As the answer is statistical, I seek leave of the House for it to be incorporated in Hansard without my reading it.

Leave was granted, and the answer was as follows:-

1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970

Sheep. 4,541,535 4,560,760 4,089,021 4,046,652 3,871,664 4,414,297 3,591,500 3,446,611 3,773,698 3,713,273

REAL ESTATE.

Cattle. 248,045 300-,194 319,515 338,919 346,741 320,434 303,504 391,739 381,316 418,575

EQUITY OF NON-RESIDENTS.


What are Ithe values of equities in real estatte in Victoria by persons Who are nonresident?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answer to this question is not available at present. I suggest to the honorable member that he confer with the Clerk of the House because there is a great deal of confusion about the information sought. If that point can be clarified the question will be answered.

4366 Questions [COUNCIL~] on Notice.

COMMONWEALTH WOOL ASSISTANCE SCHEME. QUALIFYING CONDITIONS.

The Hon. K. S. GROSS (Western Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

In view of the statement of the Minister for Primary Industry (the Honorable I. McC. Sinclair, M.P.) that the wool assistance scheme announced by the Federal Government last August would close on 31st March, with at least $4 million unexpended, will he take immediate action on behalf of the impoverished wool growers in this State and seek to have the qualifying conditions relaxed, so that this money can be put to good use?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-The answer is-

The wool assistance scheme is administered by the Commonwealth Minister for Primary Industry to whom I have made representations along the lines suggested in the honorable member's question.

MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS. RECRUITMENT FROM OVERSEAS.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province) asked the Minister for State Development-

How many medical practitioners were recruited during the recent overseas mission to attract more migrants ,to Victoria?

Year. No. of spill periods.

1960 .. .. .. 1 1961 .. .. .. Nil 1962 .. .. .. Nil 1963 .. .. .. Nil 1964 .. .. .. 2

1965 .. .. .. 3

1966 .. .. .. 4

1967 .. .. .. Nil 1968 .. .. .. 2

1969 .. .. .. 2

1970 .. .. .. 3

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister for State Development) .-The answer is-

Because of the mission's relatively short period in the United Kingdom it was not possible to finalize recruitment of intending settlers. However, several medical practitioners were interviewed which could result in their ultimate settlement in Victoria.

MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS.

MAROONDAH DAM.

The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON (Templestowe Province) asked the Minister for State Development-

(a) For what periods of time during the years 1960 to 1970 did the Maroondah dam overflow?

(b) What quantities of water passed over the overflow during these periods?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister for State Development) .-The answers are statistica'l. I therefore seek leave for their incorporation in Hansard without my reading them.

Leave was granted, and the answers were as follows:-

(a) (b)

Approx. total spill Volume of spill per period months. period-M.G.

7 12,736'0 . . Nil . . Nil

Nil 4 3,790'9

398·8 It 554·3

3·4 6·9

3t 1,140'4 10·3

418'3 30'2

. . Nil 3 572·8

1,354'2 1 1,850'4

54'3 4t 4,966'8

29·7 12·7

Questions [30 MARCH, 1971.] on Notice .. 4367

MUNICIPALITIES. SHIRE OF KORONG : VALUATIONS.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province) asked the Minister without Portfolio-

Will the Minister for Local Government lay on the table of the Library the file relating to the 1968 municipal valuation in the Shire of Korong?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister without Portfolio) .-The file has been laid on the table of the Library.

COMPANIES. ROBIN HOOD MILLING Co·: LAKE

FLOUR MILLS PTY. LTD.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) asked the Minister for State Development-

(a) What is the paid up capital of the Robin Hood Milling Co. Pty. Ltd?

(b) Who are the shareholders and how much did each shareholder contribute to the capital?

(c) What is the relationship of the Robin Hood Milling Co. Pty. Ltd. to Lake Flour Mills Pty. Ltd?

(d) Who are the shareholders in Lake Flour Mills Pty. Ltd. and what is the paid up capital of this company?

(e) Will he ascertain and inform the House whether-(i) the Robin Hood Milling Co. Pty. Ltd. or Lake Flour Mills Pty. Ltd. made a profit of approximately $50,000 by selling all plant and machinery to t.he Victorian Flourmill Owners Council and by agreeing that the company's buildings at Kerang would not be used for the production of flour in the future; and (ii) the Robin Hood Milling Co. Pty. Ltd. under-sold the price of flour fixed by the Victorian Flourmill Owners Council?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister for State Development).-The answers are-

(a) 100,000 ord1.nary shares at $1 per share.

(b)

Bravco Pty. Ltd. Ilkeston Pty. Ltd. Cadwallader Investment Pty. J. D. Moir M. H. Winneke .. A. F. Felstead ..

Holding. 39,999 39,999

Ltd. 19,999 1 1 1

(c) Lake Flour Mills Pty. Ltd., changed its name to Robin Hood Milling Co. Pty. Ltd. on 18th June, 1970.

(d) As stated above. (e) (i) The Victorian Flourmill Owners

Council advises that it has no way of determining whether a capital profit was made on the plant and machinery; the company declines to comment. Both decline to make available the terms of the agreement.

The council, however, advises that goodwill is included in the terms which inhibits the use of the building for flour-milling purposes in the future.

(ii) The company states that it was selling flour at less than the price agreed by the industry.

JOINT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT. VICTORIA INSTITUTE OF COLLEGES.


That this House m.eet the Legislative Assembly for the purpose of sitting and voting together to choose three members of the Parliament of Victori:3. to be recommended for appointment to the- Council of the Victoria Institute of Colleges.


It was ordered that a message be sent to the Assembly acquainting them with the foregoing resolution and requesting them to name the place and time of such meeting.

BARLEY MARKETING BILL. The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER

(Minister of Agriculture), by leave, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Barley Marketing Act 1958.



SUBORDINATE LEGISLATION (POWERS) BILL.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister without Portfolio), by leave, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to make further provision with respect to subordinate legislation.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was brought in and read a

first time.

4368 Buliding . Societies [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

STATUTE LAW REVISION BILL. The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister

without Portfolio), by leave, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to revise the statute law.



BUILDING SOCIETIES (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-1 move-


By way of apology, I inform the House that this measure is very technical and somewhat complicated. It is important because it breaks new ground on a number of issues. Because its contents are somewhat technical, the House is entitled to as much information as possible.

The proposals are designed to impose a number of desirable controls on the operations of permanent building societies, which have experienced substantial growth in this State during the past five years. Total funds held by these societies have more than doubled during that period and now exceed $100 million. The proposed amendments will also have the effect of providing essential protection to investors generally and, at the same time, will assist societies in their development.

I shall now deal with the various proposals set out in the Bill. Clause 2 contains four separate but important amendments. The intention of paragraph (a) is to add to section 4A of the principal Act-the section which relates to the registration of societies-a requirement that a new society must give an undertaking that, within such time after registration as the registrar approves, it will have funds of not less than $200,000, of which at least $50,000 shall be subscribed by investing shareholders and at least $150,000 shall be provided by way of loans or deposits, usually by a financial institution, on terms that

do not require repayment within ten years. This requirement is designed to ensure that new societies formed in the future will be established with a nucleus of long-term funds and sufficient capital to provide a sound basis for future development and to assist the 'control of any early liquidity problems. I point out that societies formed and registered in recent years have been required to' comply with these conditions which have been imposed by the registrar.

The purpose of the provision concerning the regist'rar's approval to the period within which the institutional funds must be available is to permit a society to receive such funds over a period rather than be required to accept the full amount of the institutional accommodation immediately and therefore pay interest on that money from the outset. This discretion will allow a society the time necessary to invest funds by way of loan and obtain some retU'rn by way of interest to enable it to meet the interest it will pay on the institutional funds.

Paragraph (b) of clause 2 relates to special advances. In sub-section (1) of section 4c of the Act, " special advance" is defined as an advance made by a society on the security of freehold or leasehold estate, being an advance of any amount to a corporate body, an advance in excess of $20,000 to any person other than a body corporate, or an advance of any amount to a person other than a body COTporate who, after an advance is made to him, seeks a further advance which together with the original advance exceeds the amount of $20,000. The virtue in limiting the amount of loan in individual cases is that it creates a greater spread of money and so provides greater security of shareholders' funds.

The intention of the proposed amendment is to exclude from special advance an advance by one permanent society to another. The pOSition sometimes arises that a society, "A". may have a heavy


demand for borrowing, or liquidity problems due to anticipated withdrawals. Another society, "B ", not necessarily operating in the same area, may have funds available which could be reasonably loaned to society " A " for its purposes. The proposed amendment wi'll free societies from the restrictions attaching to special advances and so permit employment of funds to the best advantage of the societies concerned and, at the same time, protect the image of the building society movement whose future development and success must surely depend to a large extent on the ability of societies to repay investors' funds on request. With this in mind, Buil~ing Society Resources Limited, prevIOusly known as Mortgage Discount and Assignment Limited, was formed by a number of societies which entered into agreement with each other to provide liquidity assistance to member societies when needed, and the proposed amendment will facilitate this mutual support.

Paragraph (c) O'f clause 2 relates to the distribution of reserves. A number of older fixed capital soc,ieties, which have built up substantIal r~sez:ves over a period of years, have IndIcated a desire to alter their structure to enable them to qualify for taxation benefits given to building societies which qualify as co-operatives in terms of Division 9 of the Taxation Act. Section 118 of that Act requires that 90 per cent of the business carried on by a society must be with its members. The effect of this provision is that borrowers must hold investing shares which, of course entitle them to their full equity in th~ society's reserves, to enable the SOCiety to qualify for the taxation benefits referred to.

Under the existing legislation, shareholders cannot gain their full equity in the reserves because societies are required to maintain in the reserve fund a sum equal to not less than the one-fourth of the aggregate of the paid up capital and the moneys raised on loan or received on deposit.

The suggested amendment will provide the registrar with the discretion to authorize the distribution of reserves.

The next proposal is an extremely important one. While the building society movement generally recognizes the importance of the need for societies to hold liquid funds sufficient to meet withdrawals at all times, this essential cannot be too strongly stressed. Hitherto, owing to the lack of legislative compulsion, less prudent management may have been tempted to place surplus funds in long-term securities because of the greater return.

The proposed insertion of section 4F will not only remove the temptation, but will make it mandatory for a society to hold liquid funds equal to not less than 10 per cent, or such other percentage being not less than ten as may be fixed by the Governor in Council, of the society's withdrawable funds which shall consist of the aggregate of the amount of paid up withdrawal share capital and the amount of deposits with the society, or such other amounts as may be fixed by an order given by the Minister on the recommendation of the registrar. As this measure may impose hardship on some societies, it is proposed that societies shall be given up to two years, with the approval of the registrar, to achieve the required liquidity ratio.

It is also proposed that, in addition to liquid funds which are also defined at some length, the Minister, on the recommendation of the registrar, may require a society to have approved arrangements with approved persons for the provision of financial assistance, commonly called "standby" arrangements, to the society for a further amount up to 10 per cent of the short-term funds of the society.

While the proposed liquidity ratio of 10 per cent will be a minimum requirement, it is not expected that societies generally will have any difficulty meeting it. It is considered that, together with the minimum

4370 .Building Societies [COUNCIL.] . ; (Amendment) Bill.

liquidity ratio, the requirement of additional backing in the form of " standby" arrangements up to 10 per cent of a sooiety's short-term funds, which is discretionary in the hands of the Minister, should ensure that societies will have the ability to meet any withdrawals.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.A number of societies already do this.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.That is so, but this will give protection to all societies and will bring them all into line, a course which Mr. Tripovich has advocated for some time.

I shall now move to clause 3. Section 14 of the Act now provides that an infant may be a member -that is, an investing shareholderof a society and may enjoy the privileges and responsibilities of membership except the holding of office in the society, but is not authorized to invest in a society. The small amendment in clause 3 will also enable a minor to deposit funds with a building society.

Clause 4 performs a dual role. It cbnso'lidates section 17. which sets out the manner in which a permanent building society may employ its funds and also provides a number of useful additions. Paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) of the revised section would authorize a mortgage of a mortgage. This would enable a society to deposit funds on the security of a mortgage or mortgages over freehold or leasehold property. Paragraph (d) of sub-section (1) envisages trading in mortgages. It is expected that the mortgages in . this category would be insured. Societies could then sell insured mortgages to other societies, or possibly to the mortgage market which is developing in this State, while at the same time retaining control of the mortgage account. Apparently this procedure is common in the United States of America.

These proposals and the development of Building Society Resources Limited-commonly known as B.S.R.

-will also provide further protection for societies in overcoming liquidity problems that may arise from time to time. Building Society Resources Limited, which provides for mutual assistance for its eleven member societies, is registered under the Companies Act. On behalf of the group as a whole, it has arranged extensive lines of credit equivalent to 5 per cent of the withdrawable funds of the group. In the absence of legislative authority, individual societies seeking membership are obliged to appoint one of their directors personally to invest in the share capital of Building Society Resources Limited.

The addition of sub-section (3) to section 17 will allow societies, with the consent of the registrar, to sub.scribe for or purchase shares in Building Society Resources Limited.

Clause 5 also proposes the addition to the principal Act of sections 17 A and 17B to enable societies-

(a) to form an association or federation which, it is considered, will assist the society in carrying on its business; and

(b) with the approval of the registrar, to enter into any contract or arrangement designed to protect the investor in or lender to a building society and to maintain the liquidity of a society.

The main purpose of these proposals is to provide for establishment under the Act of mutual assistance arrangements with access to firm established lines of credit .

Clause 6 seeks to vary the definition of paid up capital in relation to the borrowing powers of a society. Currently a permanent building society is limited in the amount it may borrow on loan or on deposit to five times the amount for the time being of the existing paid up capital, subscriptions paid on borrowing shares and other accumulations such as general reserves. However, in the

Building Societies [30 MARCH, 1971.] (Amendment) Bill. 437l

case of societies registered prior to 1st April, 1961, the registrar has power to authorize an increase in that ratio.

Paid up capital is defined in paragraph (b) of sub-section (5) of section 21 of the Act as meaning-

(a) investing shares which are certified on the face of the share certificate as having been lodged for a minimum period of twenty-four months; and

(b) investing shares which may not be withdrawn.

The 24-month restriction was inserted in the Act in 1961 to ensure that societies had" hard core" capital equivalent to the capital subscriptions for the previous two years. Some co-operative building societies which issue repurchaseable shares are now finding it difficult to attract further share investments because of the 24-month requirement. The amendment proposed in clause 6 should increase share investment in those societies and enable them to borrow further funds on deposit.

The proposed rule to be enforced by the registrar reads as follows:-

The repayment of shares after notice of withdrawal shall be made in priority of receipt of notices, provided that the board shall not be required to payout in respect of withdrawals a greater amount than the total amount which has been paid in reduction of mortgage loans during the previous year and may defer payment until the conclusion of the then current financial year.

This rule, or a rule along similar lines, is presently contained in the rules of most societies with withdrawal capital. It is considered that the proposals with respect to liquidity contained in paragraph (d) of clause 2 should adequately compensate for any liquidity loss as a result of the deletion of 24-month provisions.

Clause 7 will enable a society with the consent of the registrar to carry on business for a period of up to three months pending the filling of a vacancy on the board arising from the retirement or death of a director. Section 22D, which was inserted in the Act in 1961, provides, inter alia, that a society shall not commence or

continue to carry on business unless it has at least three directors who hold shares to the value of $2,000 each. It was inserted to ensure that directors had a personal interest in the society which they manage. No provision was made, however, to allow a period of time to fill an unexpected vacancy on the board.

The investment of funds receives attention in clause 8. Pursuant to section 24 of the Act, a society may currently invest its liquid funds in public funds, Government debentures. stock or securities where payment of the interest thereon is guaranteed by the authority of Parliament.

Of course, societies may also invest in trustee securities. This authority has been contained in section 17 of the Act. This is an opportune time to insert the provision in its correct place in section 24 as an investment power.

Most building societies operating in Australia are now paying at least 6! per cent on moneys invested and charging at least 8 per cent on loans made by them. Societies must invest in liquid assets a percentage of funds sufficient to provide for the withdrawal of funds. The revised section 24 provides for the investment by societies of funds in the authorized short-term money market, and in authorized bills of exchange which are payable on demand or will become payable within a period not exceeding 200 days. These will allow societies a wider choice of investment which should provide a greater return and enable societies to operate on a reasonable margin.

Clause 9 relates to official management. At present, the only course of action open to creditors of a society unable to meet its debts is to enforce a liquidation in accordance with the provisions of paragraph (iv) of section 29 of the Building Societies Act and Part X. of the Companies Act. The proposed new section, which incorporates Part IX. of the Companies Act, relating to official management, will give creditors the option

4372 Building Societies (COUNCIL·l (Amendment) Bill.

of appointing an pfficial manager when it is their belief that new management may result in the financial recovery of the society.

Clause 10 seeks to insert a provision enabling the registrar to take action to cancel registration when it is evident that a society has ceased to carryon business as a building society. Section 29 of the Act provides that a society may terminate or be dissolved in any of the following ways:-

(a) Upon the happening of any event declared by its rules to be the termination of the society;

(b) by dissolution in manner prescribed in the rules;

( c) in cases where no manner is prescribed by its rules, by dissolution with the consent of the members; and

(d) by dissolution as provided in Part X. of the Companies Act.

Amalgamations and mergers are dealt with at some length in subclause (1) of clause 11, while subclause (2) of clause 11 defines a "special resolution". Pursuant to the existing provisions contained in section 30 of the Act, two or more societies may unite, or a society may transfer its engagements to another society, on such terms as shall be agreed upon by three-quarters of the investing members holding not less than two-thirds of the capital in each society.

The written consent of the members under this requirement has proved difficult to the extent of being almost impossible to obtain. It is proposed to replace the existing section 30 with provisions taken from the Building Societies Act in England where the administration of amalgamations has worked effectively for many years. They provide that societies may unite, or transfer engagements, if, following the passing of a special resolution, consent in writing is obtained from the holders of not less than two-thirds of the societies concerned.

The Hon. Murray Byrne.

A society may undertake to fulfil the engagements of another society by a special resolution or, with the consent of the registrar, by a resolution of a general meeting or of the board of directors. Further, a society desiring to unite with one or more other societies or to transfer its engagements to another society, or to undertake to fulfil the engagements of another society shall, unless exempted by the registrar, send to each of its members a statement, approved by the registrar, concerning-

(a) the financial position of the societies concerned;

(b) the interests, if any, of the directors of the society;

(c) the compensation or other consideration proposed to be paid to the directors or other officers of the societies concerned;

(d) the payments, if any, to be made to members of the societies concerned.

The other provisions relate to administrative procedures and requirements, with the exc~ption of subclause (2), which inserts in new section 3A of the Act a definition of " special resolution". It is envisaged that a society which has become run down, is unable to make any headway, and is therefore tending to become an uneconomic entity, would welcome an amalgamation with a larger society which, by virtue of its size, has a more efficient administration. There is little doubt that an amalgamation in such circumstances could prove beneficial only to the investors and the. borrowers of each society.

Clause 12 concerns the special terms applying to shares issued to the directors and foundation members of a permanent building society. Part I. of Schedule lA to the Act provides that, during the period of five years following registration of the society, terms regarding the rate 'Of interest, participation in profits, and so on, in

Protection of Animals [30 MARCH, 1971.] (Rodeos) Bill. 4373

respect of shares issued to directors and foundation members shall not be more favourable than the terms applicable to any other shares in the society. These shares shall not be transferred during the said period of five years except by the operation 'of law.

These requirements, read in conjunction with section 4B of the Act, ensure that directors and foundation shareholders maintain a financial interest in the early development of the society. This does cause embarrassment where a holder of such shares dies before the expiration of the said period of five years. The proposed amendment will permit the transfer of shares in such cases.

It will be appreciated that, while a number of the proposed amendments are designed to facilitate and improve certain aspects of administration, the main provisions contained in the Bill are directed at the all-important question of liquidity. In this regard, the prime intention is to provide, by way of legislation, the essential liquidity requirements which are already being observed by many societies.

It is clear that the general public is becoming increasingly aware of the activities of permanent building societies-and in a significant wayby investing in these societies which, during the past two years, have made advances, mainly for the erection or purchase of homes, aggregating more than $60 million. In these circumstances, it is the duty of the Government to ensure that the now substantial investments in societies, whether made by individual members of our community or by institutional lenders, are provided with a reasonable measure of protection. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province), the debate was adjourned.


PROTECTION OF ANIMALS (RODEOS) BILL.


The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province).-This Bill has two purposes-firstly, to enable the Government to register and control the conduct of rodeos; and secondly, to enable a person who holds a master's degree or doctorate in the field of animal biology to experiment with animals for the purpose of scientific investigation.

Regarding the control of rodeos, the Government has had a difficult row to hoe over the past two or three years because of submissions made to it. The Blue Cross Animal Society of Victoria and other bodies· interested in animal welfare have made representations to the Government, in particular for calf roping to be prohibited because of the alleged cruelty involved. On the other hand, the Victorian Agricultural Society has made representations to the Government asking that rodeos be permitted subject to some form of control. Therefore, the Bill represents a compromise in that whilst the Government has not gone so far as to say to the people from the Blue Cross Animal Society and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals that it will prohibit calf roping, it has agreed that a revenue collection will be made and that a licence will be granted to a perso.n to hold a rodeo subject to certain assurances. If the person breaks those assurances, he will pay the penalty of not being r~gistered again, and consequently wIll not be permitted to conduct another rodeo where calf roping will be carried out. Members of the Opposition believe thi~ is a logical compromise, and they offer no objection to the insertion of new section llA in the principal Act.

4374 Protection of Animals [COUNCIL.] (Rodeos) Bill.

Clause 3 amends paragraph (c) of sub-section '(1) of section 12 of the principal Act and provides that a person holding a master's degree or doctorate in the field of animal biology may experiment on animals. The Statute Law Revision Committee investigated this matter in 1965 and at page 4 of its report upon the proposals contained in the Protection of Animals Bill the committee stated, inter alia-

The committee -agrees that there is extreme doubt as to whether 'the use of animals in reaching a diagnosis ofa patient's illness could be regarded as coming within 'the ambit of scientific investigation. It believes that ,the exclusion in the Bill should specifically cover both scientific investigation 'and diagnostic procedures, and recommends 'that paragraph (c) of sub-clause (1) of clause 11 be amended accordingly.

When that measure was enacted, clause 11 became section 12. Members of the Opposition believe it is a wise procedure in the field of diagnostics that animals should be used in relation to the curing of disease for the benefit of mankind. We wish the compromise well, but I am certain that Miss Carter will not be happy that the Government is not banning calf roping for ever. I can understand how the Minister will administer the Bill and can imagine the protests that he will receive.' Members of my party approve of the Bill.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province).- Members of the Country Party support this Bill which, as Mr. Tripovich has said, relates to rodeos and the use of animals in scientific investigations. Proposed new section llA is a compromise between the points of view expressed by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and the organizations concerned with the running of rodeos; Several honorable members have seen well-conducted rodeos in their electorates. My colleague, Mr. Swinburne, is a keen supporter of a rodeo regularly held at Myrtleford.

Members of my party believe that these entertainments should be properly conducted. Therefore, they are in agreement with the provisions of proposed new clause llA that a person or organization wanting to conduct a rodeo must apply for permission and should be required on payment of a fee for a licence to conform to certain regulations. I suggest, in relation to the payment of fees, that the Government should be sympathetic because the purpose of the Bill is not to raise money but to ensure that entertainments of this type are conducted in a proper manner.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVlcH.-The idea is to get revenue.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD.That may be so, but I make the point that the principle of the Bill is to ensure the proper conduct of rodeos and not to make money. Clause 3 proposes to amend paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of section 12 of the principal Act concerning the use of animals for scientific investigations. It proposes to permit a legally qualified medical, dental or veterinary practitioner or a person holding a master's degree or doctorate in the field of animal biology, to carry out this research. It is a worth-while provision and members of my party support the Bill.



Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2, providing penalty for

holding a rodeo without a permit.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .---11 thank Mr. Tripovich and Mr. McDona'ld for their support of the Bill. I give an assurance to the Committee that the purpose of the measure is not to raise money but basically to effect a compromise to control rodeos.

Whether Miss Carter is happy or not, I should point out to Mr. Tripovich and to the Committee the

Municipal Association [30 MARCH, 1971.] \Amendment) Bill. 4375

quite remarkable enthusiasm and dedication of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. Mr. Tripovich may be pleased to know that I have 'a copy of a letter under today's date from Miss Carter on behalf of her organization expressing the society's appreciation of this measure.

The Hon. .J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) .-When the Government reconstituted the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals the executive, which was given authority under the Act, did not comply with the Government's wishes in relation to the continuity of its membership.

The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. G. J. Nicol).-Order!

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-As an executive member, Miss Carter refused to renew the membership of many members who should not have been refused renewal.

The CHAIRMAN .-Order! This is not an unusual occurrence in the Chamber. When order is called, Mr. Tripovich should not continue speaking.

The clause was agreed to, as was the remaining cIa use.

The Bil'l was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

MUNICIPAL ASSOCIATION (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from Mar·ch 16) on the motion of the Hon. R. J. Hamer (Minister for Local Government) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Doutta Galla Province).-This small Bill to amend the Municipal Association Act 1907 has only one objective-to make the life of the Municipal Association a little easier and to give it more power. The measure will permit the association to buy and hold 'land for later deve'lopment and to borrow for such purposes. It is not an exciting Bill.

At present the association is housed in Rigby House, Queens Road, South Melbourne, which is owned by the Local Authorities SupeTannuation Board. With the expansion of the board, it is possible that the Municipal Associa tion will h'a ve to find other· aocommodation. The measure assists it in that purpose. The remainder of the clauses are small amendments to the principal Act for the purpose of tidying up certain provisions which have become redundant over the years. Members of the Opposition have no objection to the Bill.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (NorthWestern Province).-Members of the Country Party support this Bill, which will assist the Municipal Association. For some time that organization has served a useful purpose in the community. In the case of any organization, be it business· or professional, one of the greatest costs is rental. Therefore, it is only natural that, in this regard, the Municipal Association should be in a little more stable and economic position. It is only right that the association should have a home of its own where it can conduct regular meetings.

I pay tribute to the people of the shires, boroughs and cities throughout the country who do a remarkable job. I hope that when the association moves to a new place of abode, it will do away with the printing press by which it sends out letters getting on our backs in the country. The Local Government A'ct has been amended more in the past 5 years than in the previous 15 or 20 years. Many of the amendments have been sound. Members of my party support the Bill; we believe its provisions in granting powers needed for the Municipal Association to act as a corporate body are justified.


and committed.


4376 Firearms [COUNCIL.] Bill.

Clause 2 (Association to be a body corporate, etc.).

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister without Portfolio) .-1 thank honorable members for their support of this measure, and for their tributes to the Municipal Association of Victoria.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses.


TRANSFER OF LAND (DUPLICATE CERTIFICATES) BILL.


The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province).-This Bill has been adequately explained by the Minister, and it is not opposed by the Labor Party.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province) .-As the Minister stated in his second-reading explana tory speech, the purpose of this measure is to save time and labour in the Titles Office. The Country Party believes this to be a step in the right direction, and supports the Bill.



FIREARMS BILL. The debate (adjourned from March

16) on the motion of the Hon. Murray Byrne (Minister of Public Works) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province).- This Bill makes three amendments to the Firearms Act 1958. The first is that no fee shall be payable for the issue or renewal of a firearm certificate

for a pistol which is used solely for the destruction of animals; the second amendment relates to the issue of a certificate to persons who have been recently released from prison or are on probation; and the third simplifies the procedure of applying to a judge in chambers for forfeiture of a weapon.

The Bill deals with licences for high-powered rifles and pistols, but, regrettably, it does not refer to the purchase of . 22 calibre rifles or of shot-guns, which are often used in the commission of crimes. This measure will not prevent a person who has just been released from prison, or one who is on probation, from purchasing a .22 rifle or a shot-gun from a store on one corner and robbing a bank at the next.

If the barrel of the gun is shortened, it comes within a prohibited category, but if the barrel is left at its original length, there is no restriction on its purchase or carriage. The Opposition believes it is useless to pass legislation which prevents a former convict from having certain weapons, but allows him freedom to purchase a .22 rifle or a shot-gun. However, it does not oppose the Bill.

The Hon. B. P. DUNN (NorthWestern Province) .-The Country Party does not oppose this measure, the provisions of which were adequately explained in the Minister's second-reading speech. The Country Party shares Mr. Walton's views concerning the ease with which firearms can be purchased in this State. There is no danger from a firearm in the hands of an experienced person who is sound and well balanced; it can be used for sport or, as is the case with fanners, to eradicate vermin from properties. However, in the hands of a person who is not well balanced a firearm is a very dangerous weapon which can be used to endanger the lives of others and in the commission of crimes. The Country Party does not oppose the Bill.


Geelong Land [30 MARCH, 1971.] (Special Grant) Bill. 4377



Clause 2 (No fee payable on pistol used solely for destruction of animals) .

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-1 thank honorable members for the support which they have given to the Bill. A number of matters not germane to its contents have been raised during the debate and I do not propose to refer to them, however important they may be. Honorable members will agree that the amendment contained in clause 3 of the Bill restricts the use of firearms, and for a person who has been convicted of an offence there is a complete prohibition for five years. Some of the matters referred to by Mr. Walton and Mr. Dunn would be covered by this amendment, and the definition of firearm in the principal Act appears to cover any lethal weapon.

In debating the problems which have been referred to I could discuss section 92 of the Commonwealth Constitution and the need for Commonwealth and State control over the use of firearms, but I do not propose to do so. Under the provisions of the Bill there will be greater control over the use of firearms than there has been in the past.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses.


GEE LONG LAND (SPECIAL GRANT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 23) On the motion of the Hon. G. L. Chandler (Minister of Agriculture) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Doutta Galla Province) .-This simple measure will assist the Shire of Barrabool to purchase from the

Crown the land on which its municipal offices are situated. This land has an area of 1 rood 2 perches and is located at the intersection of Moorabool and Balliang streets in Geelong. In July, 1970, the valuation of the land was approved by the Valuer-General at $23,000.

The Shire of Barrabool is one of the most progressive municipalities in Victoria and it has made tremendous progress over the past twenty years. This progress has been achieved because the shire embraces the large coastal holiday resorts of Lome, Torquay and Anglesea, and also other residential areas on the outskirts of Geelong where considerable development has occurred.

The council proposes to build a new civic centre on this land but cannot sell its existing office building without a title to the land. Members of the Labor Party offer no objection to the Bill and we wish it a speedy passage.

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL (Western Province) .-1 cannot add to what Mr. Eddy has said on the Bill, the purpose of which is to transfer land from the Crown to the Shire of Barrabool. Such a transfer requires Parliamentary approval and there is no point in delaying the passage of the measure.

The Hon. O. G~ JENKINS (SouthWestern Province).-The Bill proposes the transfer of the title of a block of land in South Geelong to the Shire of Barrabool to enable the shire to sell the property. After the sale there should be a surplus over and above the $23,000 at which the land is valued and this will form the nucleus of a fund to enable the shire to build a new civic centre. The land was reserved originally in 1883 and a temperance hall was erected on it. Temperance halls seem to have gone out of fashion these days.

In the 1950s the shire purchased this property from the Sons of Temperance and erected new municipal offices. The hall still remains behind the municipal offices. The shire

4378 Churchill Water and [COUNCIL.] Sewerage Works Bill.

has developed quickly in the past few years and two major' developments have been the' Victoria Portland Cement Company's plant and quarry at Waurn Ponds and the Alcoa power station and associated works at Anglesea. Considerable residential development has occurred on the periphery of Geelong at Waurn Ponds and at the resort centres of Anglesea and Lome. In addition, the Gordon Institute of Technology and ancillary facilities are being erected at Waurn Ponds. Because of this development the shire needs to expand its administration facilities.

Until twenty years ago the shire was predominantly rural with small resort settlements along the coast. The shire now sees the need for additional development and desires to erect a new civic centre. The area referred to in the Bill is in Moorabool Street, South Geelong, just past the Geelong football ground. It is a valuable block of land and its sale should yield a substantial surplus to enable the shire to build the civic centre.

The motion-was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time,

and passed through its remaining stages.


The debate (adjourned from March 24) on the motion of the Hon. V. O. Dickie (Minister for State Development) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. D. E. KENT (Gippsland Province) .-The purpose of the Bill is to validate agreements already made between the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board and the Morwell Waterworks Trust in connection with the setting up of the Churchill Sewerage Authority and to transfer assets and liabilities between the various authorities. It has been found that the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board Act does not contain power to enable these transfers to be made.

Although members of the Labor Party support the Bill, I should like to point out some of the disadvantages under which the residents of the township of Churchill labour because the town has not been developed to the extent originally planned. It.is pleasing to note that some of the liabilities incurred in constructing the sewerage and water supply systems at Churchill will not be made a charge upon the local waterworks trust and sewerage authority. The water and sewerage rate paid by the residents of Churchill is double that being paid by the residents of the adjoining town of Morwell. To a certain extent this, together with other disabilities, detracts from the incentive of people to live in Churchill. The idea behind the establishment of the town of Churchill is splendiq, but it is another instance where the performance of the Victorian Government has not matched its promises. If the area is given the attention which it requires and which is justified, it will become one of the most attractive and desirable townships in the Latrobe Valley. The Labor Party supports the Bill.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (G~ppsland Province) .-This measure is necessary, as the Minister indicated, to validate the position which exists regarding the transference of assets and liabilities and their adjustment between the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board, the Morwell Waterworks Trust, and the Churchill Sewerage Authority.

When a new township came into existence in Victoria, considerable discussion took place on its name. It was envisaged that very soon the town would have 40,000 residents. That is all history now. At that time the Government envisaged the appointment of the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerag'e Board as a constructing authority and service organization for the new town. The people of Churchill can remember how the name was rammed down their throat. When a plebiscite was taken, the


decision went against the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board, and this measure is necessary to carry out the wishes of the ratepayers of Churchill.

I pay tribute to the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board for its great work as a constructing authority. The 'residents and the ratepayers had their eye on what they ultimately would have to pay, and they felt more was to be gained by coming under the umbrella of the Morwell Waterworks Trust and the now constituted Churchill Seweqoage Authority than by remaining under the Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board. This is the result of their thinking at that time.

At present great plans are envisaged for Churchill. All the groundwork has been done for a new institute of advanced education to be built to the east of the township, and extensions will ultimately be required to serve that area with water and sewerage. In the layout a very busy road separates the residential area from the shopping area. The Gippsland Institute of Advanced Education is being built on a site adjacent to the shopping centre. An over-pass to serve the Jeeralang and switch-back roads is required to overcome this problem and ensure the safety of the students going to the institute.

An area of between 700 and 800 blocks is undeveloped at present, and the maintenance of the roads has constituted a problem to the Morwell council. At this stage the municipality does not wish to become involved in the cost of sealing the roads, and the spell of dry weather which has been experienced has caused a tremendous maintenance problem. To overcome it the Shire of Morwell has had to purchase rubber-tyred rollers to keep the roadways continually packed. No doubt water will be essential in the maintenance of these roads to ensure that the surface does not blow away in the wind.

1 do not propose to go through the measure clause by clause, but it gives me pleasure to indicate that the Country Party supports it.





FUND) BILL. The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister

without Portfolio) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

As honorable members will see, this small Bill consists of only two clauses. It will give effect to a promise made by the Government prior to the recent election to increase the amount of the subsidies which may be allocated to municipalities each year from the Municipalities Assistance Fund. The fund is the present-day equivalent of the old municipal endowment which was paid to municipal councils almost from the inception of local government until 1930. The last amount of endowment provided was $100,000 in the year 1929-30.

During the great depression, councils received unemployment relief grants for municipal works and after the second world war for the first time a Municipalities Subsidies Fund was established by payments from Consolidated Revenue, as it then was, for the purpose of providing subsidies for municipal works. An amount of $200,000 was provided each year for many years. In 1950, the Municipalities and Other Authorities Finances Act put this arrangement on a permanent basis and provided finally for the suspension of municipal endowment. The relevant portion of the legislation is now incorporated in the Local Government Act as section 250.

4380 Subordinate Legis/ation [COUNCIL.] (Powers) Bill.

Currently, the amount which the Minister for Local Government may in any year approve for subsidies from the Municipalities Assistance Fund is limited to $500,000. The Bill increases this to $600,000. In other words, the amount will be increased by 2 per cent. The amount available annually to each of the participating municipalities will also be increased.

On the motion of the Hon. A. W. Knight, for the Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) , the debate was adjourned.


SUBORDINATE LEGISLATION (POWERS) BILL.

The Hon. A. J. HUm (Minister without Portfolio) .-1 move-


The object of the Bill is to give effect in legislation to the view expressed by the Subordinate Legislation Committee in its report dated 18th March of last year, upon its general inquiry into subordinate legislation. In sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 20 of its report, the committee referred to the fact that a large number of separate statutory rules is made from time to time to bring ca.r and personal allowances of officers of Government agencies not 'directly affected by Public Service Board determinations into line with changed rates of allowances fixed by the board.

The· committee indicated that it would not oppose the development of a technique whereby Government agencies which adopt the Public Service Board's determinations in respect of travel allowances could adopt the Public Service Board regulations as amended from time to time. The House will agree that this was a sensible approach. All honorable members are conversant with the practice from time to time of literally

dozens of independent regulations bringing such allowances into line under various Acts of Parliament and in respect of various authorities.

Similar problems also arise in relation to statutory rules prescribing salaries and wages where the rates prescribed follow a determination made by another authority. Indeed the committee recently drew attention to the fact that the Apprenticeship Commission frequently adopts the practice of referring to salaries or wages fixed by Commonwealth awards.

The Bill, therefore, proposes to insert in the Subordinate Legislation Act 1962 a new section 9A, which will authorize a statutory rule to fix salaries, wages, fees, allowances or expenses under an Act by reference to similar allowances or expenses from time to time fixed by or under any other State Act or Commonwealth Act. The last reference, of course, is quite significant. Proposed section 9A is not only approved by the Subordinate Legislation Committee, but incorporates a number of suggestions made by that committee. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. A. W. Knight, for the Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) , the debate was adjourned.


LOCAL GOVERNMENT (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 24) on the motion of the Hon. R. J. Hamer (Minister for Local Government) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (NorthWestern Province) .-With due respect to the Minister in charge of the Bill, for a number of years the House has had the advantage of having a Minister who thoroughly understood

Local Government [30 MARCH, 1971.] (Further Amendment) Bill. 4381

the Local Government Act from begining to end and had played a major part in framing amendments and practically rebuilding or consolidating the Act over a number of years. I shall miss his face across the table, the advice which he proferred, the cool and calm manner in which he took criticism and the way in which he was able to point out the folly of some of our beliefs and convince us, sometimes against our own convictions, that the Government's proposal was right. I pay a tribute to the Honorable R. J. Hamer, whose name will go down in history amongst the municipalities for his understanding of the Local Government Act.

On this Bill, the Minister for Local Government gave a full explanation, setting out the objects and the reasons for the amendments. The debate was taken up by another honorable member who understands the Act and takes a keen interest in legislation concerning local government. Mr. Walton went through the Bill in detail. Accordingly sufficient detail appears in Hansard and I do not propose to deal with each clause.

However, there are certain portions of the Bill with which my party and I cannot agree. The Country Party is not satisfied with the wording of certain clauses, some of which the party will oppose when the Bill is in Committee. I thank the Minister for granting an adjournment of the debate to give members of the Country Party an opportunity to receive comments from country municipal councils which meet only once a month. Peculiarly, on this Bill, only two of my colleagues have received letters, both from the same quarter, with regard to one clause. Coincidentally, quite a deal of correspondence has been received on the Scaffolding Bill, which appears to be controversial. Accordingly, 'country municipalities must agree with the proposed amendments to the Local Government Act. Although the Municipal Association has not written to the municipalities on this matter-it has concentrated on the Bill relating

to s.cafiolqing-members of the Country Party have sent copies of the Bill to municipal councils within their provinces and have received few replies.

The wording of the amendment proposed to section 158 by paragraph (f) of clause 3 appears to be ambiguous. Sub-section (1) of section 158 provides that the 'council shall from time to time appoint a municipal clerk and a surveyor or engineer for the municipality. The amendment proposes that the words" and a surveyor or engineer" shall be omitted with the view of inserting the expression " a surveyor or engineer and a building surveyor". Some people consider tha t the one person takes the two jobs, but my interpretation is that they are two separate offices, namely, a surveyor or engineer and a building surveyor. I should like the Minister to indicate the Government's intention in this regard. The section appears to be mandatory on any municipality within the State whether it is a city, borough, town or shire. If it is mandatory to make these appointments, the Country Party feels that municipalities, particularly the smaller ones, are being overloaded with highly-paid officers whom they may not need. Municipalities incur enough expense already. This proposal may help to bring about the amalgamation of smaller shires into larger municipalities which seems to be the current trend. Many amendments to the Local Government Act have related to the annexation of a part of one municipality by another municipality.

I often wonder whether this is a good thing. In politics-after all, this measure deals with local government politics-there is the centralization 'Of power in Canberra, which reacts adversely against this and other States. The centralization of members and Government departments away from the people means that they do not treat local problems as personal matters. Within the State sphere, local government is being tied up in so many ways with various departments that duplication of work

4382 Local Government [COUNCIL.] (Further Amendment) Bill.

and officers results. Additional costs are incurred and amalgamation is forced upon smaller municipalities.

Within the metropolitan area, a proposal to amalgamate four municipalities with the City of Melbourne has be,en under considera tion for some time. For many, it is the case of the big man gobbling up the little man. In most circumstances, the smaller municipality has a better understanding of local conditions and runs its affairs better than large municipalities. This amendment should be carefully considered because the Country Party fears the outcome. Whether a person is a local councillor or a member of the State or Federal Parliament, he must move amongst the people to understand what is happening in local areas.

The Country Party also queries the proposed amendment of section 161 by paragraph (h) of clause 3, which relates to the temporary appointment of municipal clerks. Because of long service leave, sick leave, or difficulties in obtaining the services of a municipal clerk following the resignation of a former occupant of the position, it may be necessary to make a temporary appointment. In one municipality a woman came from the local high school, worked in the municipal office during the term of office of two or three shire secretaries, and when the municipality could not obtain the services of a shire secretary, this lady was placed in charge. Although she did not hold a certificate of competency issued by the Municipal Clerks Board, she did a good job for many months.

The amendment proposes that such a person may be appointed for three months, after which application must be made to the Minister for any further extension. Some municipal officers believe that a person should not be allowed to act as municipal clerk unless he or she possesses a certificate. It has been pointed out that many retired shire secretaries or town clerks could act temporarily in a municipality. This merits consideration because quite a number of men are retiring at 65

The Hon. A. R. Mansell.

years of age or even younger and they are still capable of carrying out the duties of a responsible position for 3, 6 or even 9 months.

The idea that the Municipal Officers Association wants to tie it up so that no one else can be appointed smacks of academic snobbery in much the same way as a secondary school teacher will not look at a primary school teacher. The association seems to hold the view that no matter how knowledgeable a clerk within a municipal office may be, because he has not the certificate of competency issued by the Municipal Clerks Board, he is not capable of doing the job. Quite frankly, often they know more than the municipal clerk. The Country Party voices some criticism of that amendment.

I feel more strongly than do other members of my party with regard to paragraph (b) of clause 4, which relates to pecuniary interests of councillors. I think the amendment is dangerous, although recently a council Jacked a quorum when many councillors left the meeting because they owned dogs and the council was discussing dog fees. This is an absurd situation. These stupid things should be overcome because such actions which result from adherence too closely to the letter of the law tend to hold the council up to ridicule.

To my mind, there is some doubt in the reference to the value of shares not exceeding $1,000. I am wondering whether the figure represents the price paid for the shares or the current market value. Accordingly, the Country Party is not satisfied with the proposed sub-section (4A) of section 181. The provision should be stricter. A great majority of councillors are honest and sincere and do what they think is best in the interests of the people. Many of them make a sacrifice in accepting municipal office. However, there are always the few who will use their position. This has occurred in the past and the Country Party does not want such things to happen in the future.

Local Government [30 MARCH, 1971.] (Further Amendment) Bill. -4383

The amendment proposed by subclause (2) of clause 5 will make the provisions of section 205 retrospective. The Country Party has always opposed retrospectivity in legislation. Sub-clause (1) of the clause reads-

In sub-section' (2) of section 205 of the principal Act after the words .. general purport thereof" there shall be inserted the words .. or a general description of the subject-matter with which the proposed bylaw regulation or jOint regulation deals, or the purposes for which it is proposed to make the by-law regulation or jOint regulation" .

By sub-clause (2), section 205 as amended by sub-clause (1) Will be effective from 1958. The Country Party opposes this provision.

Paragraph (a) of clause 6 inserts a new sub-section at the end of section 213 of the principal Act. The present provision is understandable, but wi th the proposed new subsection, an ordinary person dealing with subdivisions or any matter related to town planning will not be able to follow the whole of section 213. He would not know where to go. Usually, an advertisement in the press gives the general purport of what is happeniBg. However, a person could examine ~he plan today and it could be altered tomorrow. Proposed new sub-section (3) of section 213, as contained in clause 6, provides-

Any by-law regulation or joint regulation may describe the parts of the municipal district or districts or of a prescribed space or common prescribed space in which it is to have the force of law by reference to any 'area described by any planning scheme ·approved by the Governor in Council under the Town and Country Pl1anning Act 1961 whether as the planning scheme stands when ,the by-law regulation or joint regulation is made or as the planning scheme may be amended from time to time.

I have no doubt that lawyers could argue the meaning of that provision.

Clause 11 deals with the appointment of an arbitrator in connection with subdivisions. At first glance, I thought this was a good provision. However, the Country Party opposes the clause because no provision is made for an appeal. Under the

original Act, any person dissatisfied had the right of appeal to the Supreme Court, but it is now proposed that the arbitrator shall have the final say. It is intended that the arbitrator will hold qualifications to enable' him to sit in the Supreme Court, but provision should be made for an appeal. I am aware of one case in which an appeal is being heard by a committee of arbitrators. Many months have passed without a decision being reached. This provision might assist the big subdivider, but it will not help the small man. Today, the costs of subdividing are such that the owner of a relatively small area of land is not subdividing because he cannot make any profit. The large speculators are .carrying out subdivisions and constructing homes, or the Housing Commission is doing so, and the private owner of an area of from 3 acres to 5 acres is not subdividing and providing land at a reasonable price.

Clause 17 relates to the provision of car parks. It provides that a municipality can order the builder of a block of flats or business premises to provide car parking space for so many people. I think the existing provision is two car parking spaces for every three flats constructed. Under this provision, the municipality will be empowered to relieve a builder of that responsibility and allow him to construct an additional flat provided that he makes available the finance for a car parking area elsewhere. The tenants of the building will have the right to park vehicles there for a period of ten years, and provision is made for payment to be made by quarterly instalments over a . similar period. However, what will happen if the property changes hands? "Dhe Bill does not provide that the property owners have any rights in the car park after a certain period. I consider that these people should be given rights to the car park for the life of the bUilding. At the end of a period of ten years, a new council


could decide to construct a multistory building on the block of land. What would happen to the persons who were the original tenants?

Clause 19 gives a council the power to acquire land ostensibly to have it in hand to entice a factory or industry to establish in the area. Why should the ratepayer of today finance the purchasing of land at a fairly high figure when the area may stand idle for a long period? Council revenue should be used for maintenance and the provision of services. Capital expenditure should be obtained by means of loans. Members of the Country Party are not in favour of this provision, although action along similar lines was taken at Bendigo for the. establishment of several factories. If a council has a prospective industry in mind, by all means it should have power to acquire land. However, I do not consider that it should be enabled to purchase land for use in the indefinite future. I shall have something more to say on the other clauses in Committee.

The Hon. O. G. JENKINS (SouthWestern Province).-This Bill proposes many amendments to the Local Government Act, most of which will facilitate administration. Some of the matters raised by both Mr. Walton and Mr. Mansell and to which they have some slight, or even a major objection, will also facilitate the administration of councils. The Local Government Act is the largest and most complex Act in the statutebook; it even surpasses the Companies Act, although that may catch up in due course. At least in part the original Acts applied to both Melbourne and Geelong when they were incorporated by the New South Wales Legislative Council back in October, 1849, two years before Victoria was separated from New South Wales.

An interesting provision, although it may be only a minor matter, is that which relates to a municipal coat of arms. This question has arisen over the years particularly as

souvenir makers and others were reproducing the seal or coat of arms of cities and towns on souvenir items. Many of these productions were pretty shoddy and councils were not happy when they found they had no authority over the reproduction of their seal or coat of arms. This Bill will at least give a council some measure of control in this direction.

Mr. Walton mentioned clause 3, which relates to the power of the Governor in Council to allow the existing subdivisions of a council which is united with a small section or one subdivision of another council.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-They might be the same size.

The Hon. O. G. JENKINS.-I do not think that is contemplated. Previously, no provision was made for the Governor in Council to approve of existing subdivisions continuing. There has been some opposition to this proposal because there could be a wholesale reshuffle, and in some cases only a relatively small portion may be attached to the existing council. In the long term, and perhaps even in the short term, there may be some redistribution of municipal boundaries, and this provision will facilitate that action. I know of at least one case where objections were raised by the council because the councillors did not look forward to facing an election. In almost every case the Local Government Advisory Board conducts a hearing or an inquiry into municipal boundaries and the advisability of the divisions or wards or ridings within the council. I expect that it will be on the board's recommendation that the Governor in Council will allow existing subdivisions to continue.

Some objection was voiced by both Mr. Walton and Mr. Mansell in regard to the clause which deals with the pecuniary interest of councillors. Almost all of the members of this Chamber have been municipal councillors, and some of us still are. Anyone who accepts the respon-

Local Government . [30 MARCH, 1971.] (Further Amendment) Bill. 4385

sibility of being a municipal councillor and who is faced with an Act as large as the Local Government Act has no small task. He also faces the possibility of persons taking action for some innocent mistake or omission that he has made by voting or taking part in discussion upon a matter in which he has an indirect interest. In one case a man had shares in a small family company which in turn had shares in a large oil company which was supplying the council with bitumen through a subsidiary company. The councillor concerned ascertained the position accidentally. He inquired of the town clerk and took advice from the council's solicitors. He was advised that it would be in his own interest not to take part in the deliberations because there was some slight chance that he could fall foul of the Act.

Another case occurred at Geelong when only six out of fifteen councillors were able to sit in the chamber and vote on the passing of the accounts.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-That has been corrected since.

The Hon. O. G. JENKINS.-Not altogether. The Minister has power of dispensation, but this generally applies for only a relatively short time. Whilst Mr. Walton is concerned for people who may take a real advantage of the provisions, the matter must be examined in a broader context. Throughout Victoria, thousands of municipal councillors serve in an honorary capacity, and they desire to do their best. The interest is only $1,000 or one-hundredth of the nominal issued share capital of the company whichever is the less. The principle of disclosure of any interest is still maintained, and that is of importance. Councillors and their officers around the table would then know of the interest. That is a valuable amendment to the prinCipal Act, which I believe follows closely the provisions of the New South Wales Act which have worked well.

Another important matter concerns the power of councils to examine and determine access to off -street car parks. Honorable members are familiar with the sight of long queues of vehicles waiting to get into car parks. Councils have little or no power to act in these matters. Such power is now being provided in this measure, and this will be valuable. I have mentioned some of the important aspects of the Bill, but it also deals with numerous machinery items almost all of which have been requested by the Municipal Association of Victoria.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister without Portfolio) .-It is indeed unusual for the Minister in charge of a Bill to speak following other honorable members in the second-reading debate. I appreciate Mr. Mansell's expressions of regret at the absence of the Minister for Local Government from this Chamber. I realize as much as the honorable member how everyone has come to rely on the Minister for Local Government and to trust implicitly the advice he has tendered on Bills such as this. Despite his loss, it is incumbent on me to do my best. That is all I can promise in answer to the comments which have been made.

I appreciate the contributions of representatives of the two other parties in this Chamber and those of my own colleagues. It is only through the making of such comments that defects and constructive suggestions can be drawn to attention. The aim of all is to end up with the best possible Bill. Honorable members well know that the Minister for Local Government always sought to pick the best of their brains to improve measures from the suggestions he received. I shall endeavour to do likewise. Some of the comments require at least . mature consideration in consultation with the Minister for Local Government and his department. At an appropriate time in Committee I shall propose that progress be reported to ensure that this is done, to enable

4386 Local Government [COUNOIL.] (Further Amendment) Bill.

the utmost consideration to be given to suggestions made by honorable members.

However, at this juncture I should like to indicate the reasons for some of the clauses that have been queried in the course of the debate. Possibly, it would assist honorable members if I did so now rather than wait for discussion on the appropriate clauses. That will enable honorable members to rethink their position whilst, in consultation with the Minister for Local Government and his department, the Government can also rethink its position.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Order! The Minister without Portfolio is making a secondreading speech and he should not go into too much detail at this juncture.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-No, Mr. President, but this Bill 'consists of a number of unrelated clauses which can only be referred to clause by clause. I am seeking only to adopt the same procedure as other speakers have done, and I seek no more latitude than they have received. Mr. Walton has indicated that he will move an amendment to clause 3 in relation to insurance to widen the operation of its provisions. One of the reasons why I shall seek to have progress reported is that I shall then have the opportunity to examine his amendment.

This clause contains provisions which were sought by the Municipal Association, as Mr. Walton will doubtless have found from his own investigations. Need exists for a balance to be struck between absolute cover on the one hand, and the cost of providing it on the other hand. Mr. Walton would agree that it might be unfortunate if councils or the Municipal Association were forced to meet heavy costs. By way of illustration, I point out that a claim now exists. I shall not go into details which may identify it, because the matter is sub judice. It involves a suburban mayor who went to a local football match. On leaving

the licensed premises of the club he encountered certain trouble. He has made a claim on the council's insurance policy under this provision. One would be very doubtful about extending cover to all sorts of circumstances such as this where any councillor could say, "I was on municipal business ".

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-He may well have been.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-That is so, but one would be reluctant to open the gates to allegations of this kind whenever any councillor was at any function whatsoever. One needs to consider where the line should be drawn. It has been drawn precisely where the Municipal Association suggests, no further on one side or the other.

When discussing a later subclause of that clause Mr. Mansell queried the fact that it is incumbent on even the smallest municipality to appoint two officers on the engineering side. I fully agree with the honorable member that that is what the Bill provides. Mr. Mansell has forcibly drawn attention to what may be the plight of the smaller municipalities and I undertake to have his comments examined tomorrow.

Mr. Walton and Mr. Mansell directed attention to amendments provided by this clause that uncertificated persons could be used for temporary service, although each honorable member looked at the matter from a slightly different viewpoint. I fully agree that, in certain circumstances, the amendment to section 161 of the principal Act will enable the use of uncertificated clerks and engineers, but only for a temporary period. This is understandable, and permission may be granted for a period beyond three months only by the Minister for sufficient cause in what could be described as an emergency. If a town clerk died unexpectedly what would the municipality do?

The Hon. A. R. MANsELL.-What municipality has not an assistant town clerk?


The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-I use Mr. Mansell's earlier example against him. He was speaking about the plight of smaller municipalities which did not have two officers. Many of these will clearly not have a fully qualified assistant municipal clerk. If the clerk of the municipality dies, even a temporary appointee, perhaps a young, partly qualified member of the staff could carry out the duties. This is merely to enable a temporary appOintment to fill the gap before applications are called and a fully certificated officer is appointed. Again, this amendment has been made at the request of municipalities which have seen the need. With my limited experience, I have seen the need on two occasions and I am sure other honorable members know of other situations. I assure the House that there is no intention to break down qualifications. It is desired to meet a situation which occasionally arises pending the calling of applications and the making of a permanent appointment.

A most important discussion has taken place on clause 4. I agree that this is an extremely important clause dealing with circumstances in which a councillor may still take part in discussions and vote, notwithstanding what might be called a minor pecuniary interest. Once again, Mr. Mansell and Mr. Walton have looked at the matter from different viewpoints. In some senses, I agree with both of them. Mr. Mansell referred to what he could well have described as undue legalism. That is the attitude of councillors who fear they are prevented from discussing, say, registration fees payable on dogs because they are dog owners. Of course, it is ludicrous that people could think in that way.

On the other hand, Mr. Walton has expressed the fear that someone who might directly or indirectly benefit could participate in the proceedings and votes of a municipality. That is a justifiable fear, and in voicing it he has rendered a proper service. It is a possible danger which should be forcibly drawn to the attention

of municipalities, and it is not one that the Government in any way minimizes. However, as Mr. Walton would admit, other factors must be taken into consideration.

Four considerations arise in particular. Firstly, as mentioned by Mr. Jenkins, the necessity for disclosure of any financial interest is still maintained by this Bill, even though in the limited circumstances referred to in the clause there may be power to discuss and vote upon the measure. I believe the necessity to disclose any interest, pecuniary or otherwise, in a measure, with consequent availability of public scrutiny, is one of the greatest safeguards that could possibly be achieved. The real danger is likely to come from the blackguards, the cheats and the snide who do not disclose their interests and who benefit secretly. Fortunately, there have been very few in the history of Victoria. But the obligation to disclose is retained in this Bill, even though in limited circumstances a right to speak and vote may be permitted.

In this regard I refer honorable members to the report of the proceedings of a Select Committee of the British Parliament reported in the April, 1970, edition of the Parliamentarian. I direct attention to the same principle upheld there: It is of vital importance that men in public life, whether municipal or Parliamentary, should disclose financial interests and other interests of any kind. This is the greatest safeguard; it is far more important than barring people from office. So long as one knows exactly what the interest is, allowances can be made in listening and determining on what is said. That is a principle which was adopted by New South Wales. As Mr. Tripovich interjected, it is a principle that could well be considered for the future in relation to this House; but it is certainly preserved in this Bill in relation to councillors.

Secondly, this important clause relates to what could fairly be described as minor pecuniary interests. Before a person can vote on or discuss

4388 Local Government , [COUNCIL.] (Further Amendment) Bill.

matters referred to in the clause, he must have less than 1 per cent of the total nominal value of the issued capital of the company and less than $1,000 worth of shares. I shall return to the question of value, but two conditions must be satisfied. The person must have a small shareholding in the company affected and, as the Minister indicated in his opening remarks, these must be interests of a kind unlikely in substance to affect his judgment. A person who holds, say, $1,000 nominal value of shares in the Broken Hill Proprietary Co. Ltd. is surely unlikely to be affected by a decision whether a permit should be issued to the company to build a shed, a factory, or even a steel mill. That would be an irrelevant and minor consideration to the person concerned.

I shall now deal with the queries raised by Mr. Walton and Mr. Mansell on the question of the words" nominal value". Three choices faced the Government. It could have referred to nominal value; it could have referred to face value, or it could have referred to value. To many people the last alternative may seem the simplest. In fact, it is the most difficult because on every occasion a person would need to look at the share quotations of the day to ascertain the value of his shares.

The Hon. F. S. GRIMWADE.Does the Minister mean market value?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Yes, the market value. Many holdings in a company do not have a fa'ce value. Units of many kinds and common stock do not have a face value-only shares have a face value. Honorable members who dabble in shares would know that there h1ave been moves in the stock exchange for abolishing the concept of face value', as has been done to some degree in the United States of America and many other countries. One then comes back to the concept of nominal value-the value at which shares are originally issued. I agree with Mr. Walton that this value can increase, but there is the double safeguard that

a councillor can vote only if he holds less than 1 per cent. This is a good safeguard.

Thirdly, this provision is virtually identical with the provision existing in New South Wales, which has worked well in practice and with great satisfaction to municipalities. Fourthly, it was adopted unanimously by the Statute Law Revision Committee in 1969. I believe Mr. Walton was a member of the committee at the commencement of its inquiry, although he was no longer a member of it by the time the report was completed. Nevertheless, I doubt whether he would suggest that the report would have been different if he had still been a member at the time. The Statute Law Revision Committee, which referred with approval to the system operating, in New South Wales, stated, inter alia-

The committee is of the opinion that action must be taken to remove the doubts created by the operations of sections 53 and 181 of the Local Government Act. The committee considers that the situation would best be met if disqualification were applied to voting and discussion rather than membership. Accordingly the committee recommends the adoption, in principle, of the New South Wales provisions.

At the time, the Government was perhaps over-cautious and' did not go far enough. It failed to adopt in its entirety a unanimous report of an all-party committee. The Government went a long way towards adopting the report, but in this respect it failed and the clause in the Bill is designed to remedy the failure. The Government is now acknowledging that a unanimous report of an all-party committee was right, and that the Government at the time, in failing to carry it into full effect, was in fact over-cautious.

The Government is adopting a system which has worked well in New South Wale's and which is obviously sensible in its design to permit councillors-ordinary men-who perhaps have some small financial interest, to participate in municipal affairs and provide the benefit of their wisdom, ability and experience to muniCipalities. The Government pro-


poses to do this on the basis recommended by the Statute Law Revision Committee. Again, I emphasize that the provision will preserve the most vital concept of disclosure, which is most important.

Mr. Walton said it would be difficult to convince him that a person would make an honest decision when he had an interest in a company. However, I take it from that comment that Mr. Walton is open to conviction and has not closed the door. I have tried to show the reasons upon which the Government has acted and I hope that Mr. Walton will reconsider his attitude in the light of what has been said. I invite the honorable member to refresh his memory by reading the report of the Statute Law Revision Committee before resumption of the debate.

Mr. Mansell suggested a change in the rather obscure draftsmanship of clause 6, as it appears at the foot of page 5 of the Bill. I shall examine this point in the hope that the matter can be resolved.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-Is the Minister referring to clause 6 or clause 5?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-I am referring to clause 6.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-What about the matter of retrospectivity in relation to clause 5?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-I 'shall also take up that matter. I shall reserve my comments on that and a number of other matters for fuller discussion in Committee, although I should like now to refer to Mr. Mansell's comments on clause 11, when he pointed out that the decision of the arbitrator would be final. At present the decision of a magistrate in a Magistrates Court on a question of objections to a private street construction scheme is final, except upon a question of law. On questions of fact the decision of a magistrate is final and binding upon all parties and what the magistrate says determines the matter for ever. Through the appointment of an arbitrator with the status of a judge, objectors will be

given a better right of appeal-an appeal to a person of higher status and with more detailed training and more specialized knowledge. The rights of an individual will be increased rather than reduced. However, there will still be a right of appeal to the Supreme Court, not on questions of fact as determined by the arbitrator, but on questions of law.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-Is that stated in the Bill? The Bill provides that the decision will be final.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-It is final in relation to decisions on questions of fact. In a similar form of words as used with respect to a magistrate in a Magistrates Court, the reference is to questions of fact. I shall produce more information to Mr. Mansell on that question in the Committee stage. The Bill will provide for an appeal to someone of higher status, whilst at the same time retaining the existing right of appeal to the Supreme Court.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-PrOposed new sub-section (10) of section 569AA, as contained in paragraph (b) of clause 11, empowers the arbitrator to deal with these matters-in the same manner and to the same extent as a Judge of the Supreme Court--

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-That is so. The following proposed new subsection states:-

An arbitrator may if he thinks fit reserve any question in the form of a special case tor the opinion of the Full Court of the Supreme Court. . . . In, any event, I shall ask for further information and seek the opinion of the Law Department on this provision. I thank Mr. Mansell for his remarks. Referring again to the proposed new sub-section (lo), a minor amendment will be circulated in the Committee stage.

Both Mr. Mansell and Mr. Walton questioned the payment of money instead of the provision of car parks, as referred to in clause 17. This, of course, is analogous to the payment of money in lieu of providing land when subdividing. This new provision will add greatly to a council's


power. It will not in any way take away the right to require facilities for car parking to be provided. As honorable members will appreciate, if it is proposed to build a single shop. particularly when it is a singlestorey building, it is impossible to provide car-parking facilities on the site.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Do not try to tell the House that it is too small. .

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-In the circumstances described by me, it would be impossible to provide adequate car-parking facilities on the site. A requirement to provide those facilities on the site would virtually mean that the site could not be developed.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-Where is it provided that a council shall be empowered to force. a single shop to do that? When a block of flats is built, car-parking space must be provided, but there is no provision to make space available for parking facilities for a single-fronted shop.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-All sorts of provisions are contained in various Acts, but this provision is designed to clarify the position and to require as part of the scheme the provision of funds in lieu of car-parking facilities. It is intended not to break down any provisions, but to widen the powers of a municipality.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-That is all right, but what about the ratepayer?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-I will take up the remainder of Mr. Mansell's remarks with the Minister for Local Government who, as Mr. Mansell says, is the one in whom he naturally places the greater faith. I shall also take up with the Minister Mr. Mansell's comments on clause 19.

I direct the attention of the House to paragraph (d) of clause 20, which will amend the Thirty-third Schedule to the principal Act. Without going into the merits of the case, or into the question whether there should be any change in relations between

the Houses, I draw two points to the attention of honorable members: Firstly, that the clause refers to Consolidated Revenue instead of Consolidated Fund; and secondly, that another place is likely to challenge this clause, which deals with a financial matter in a Bill initiated in this House. I do not think there should be a confrontation with the Legislative Assembly over what appears to be a minor matter. When the Bill is being considered in Committee I think this sub-clause should be deleted and that it should be left to the Assembly to re-insert it. That will mean that the Bill will be returned to this House.

I accept Mr. Mansell's comments in the spirit in which they were offered, and I now foreshadow that I shall propose that progress be reported to enable the Government to give further consideration to all matters brought forward during debate. I commend the Bill to the House.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province) .-In relation to car parks, I think that major constructions such as flats or factories must be considered. I do not know of any municipality which requires the builder of single fronted shops to plan for car-parking space. Factories and flats are expected to have sufficient spa1ce for car parking provided either underneath the building 'or in an off-street location.

Some years ago subdividers were required to provide space, or the money to acquire space, for the provision of recreational areas in subdivisions, but this Bill does not have the same purpose. In this case a person buys the right to occupy a car-parking space, but at the end of ten years his right disappears, and the problem of parking in the streets will again arise. I ask the Minister to examine this problem.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-This is covered by my undertaking.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Mr. Mansell dealt adequately with clause 19, which deals with the acquisition


of land by a municipality, but when the Bill refers t'O 'rate concessions being granted for tourist facilities it is quite uncertain, for there is no interpretation of what are tourist facilities. I ask the Minister to consider this matter. If one goes to tourist towns such as Lorne and other areas on the Pen~nsula, to Lakes Entrance, Bright or Yarrawonga, how does one decide which is a tourist fa'Cility that should qualify for this concession, and which is not? Many municipalities are concerned about this clause, and I ask the Minister to re-examine it.

The Hon. H. A. THOMAS (Melbourne West Province) .-The measure now before the House disturbs me. The principal Act has for long been a laughing stock of municipal councils. Every honorable member who has served on a council must surely agree with my assertion. It seems to me that this proposed legislation needs to be clarified, and on behalf of the Sunshine council I ask the Minister to thoroughly re-examine it. Honorable members need no reminder that municipal councillors are not paid and that for no reward they often risk infI"inging the law.

The Hon. F. S. GRIMWADE (Bendigo Province).-The Minister has foreshadowed that progress will be reported so I will make my comments now. Mr. Thomas has remarked that councillors are not paid, but I hope a situation such as that which obtains in Brisbane, where aldermen receive approximately $11,000 a year, never arises in Victoria.

I agree with the Minister's statement concerning the appointment of a person who is not the holder of a certificate of competency issued by the Municipal Clerks Board. Circumstances may arise in which it is impossible to fill a vacancy caused by the death of a shire secretary and it becomes necessary to use the services of the shire engineer or some other person. I think this clause should remain in the Bill.

Proposed new sub-section (4A) , which is contained in clause 4 of the Bill, provides-

Where a councillor has an indirect pecuniary interest in any contract, proposed conltract or other matter and would not be treated as having such an interest but for the fact that he has a beneficial interest in shares of a company or other body, then, if the total nominal 'Value of those shares does not exceed $1,000 or one-hundredth of the total nominal value of the issued share capital of the company or body (whichever is the less

It is not surprising that honorable members have difficulty in understanding that. I suggest that the sub-section should be more simply worded.

Scientific experiments have shown that where there is a variation of more than 5 per cent, it is significant. This Bill mentions 1 per cent, and from a scientific point of view it must follow that that is insignificant. I therefore challenge the view that such a holding would influence a person's views. One per cent of the issued capital of the Broken Hill Proprietary Co. Ltd., namely, 141 million shares, would be about 1 million shares, and no one would have a holding as large as that. For that reason another qualification is needed, and the Bill provides that the nominal value of shares that are held must not exceed $1,000. That would represent a holding of 500 shares in the Broken Hill Proprietary Co. Ltd. There must be this dual qualification. I think the clause achieves its object, but it is too verbose, and I should like the Minister to re-examine the drafting of it. Clause 23 inserts a new section into the Melbourne and Geelong Corporations Act which provides that candidates at elections for the Melbourne City Council shall be limited in the amount that they may spend on their election campaigns. The limit provided is that which exists for candidates for election to the Legislative Assembly. I should like to know why this limitation applies only to elections for the Melbourne City

4392 Police Regulation [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

Council. A principle is being considered and there is no reason why it should not cover all municipal elections. I know that there is no need for such a provision at the moment to apply to all municipalities, but if the Minister is examining this matter I urge him to consider applying it to all municipal elections.

The Hon. W. G. FRY (Higinbotham Province) .-1 shall reserve most of my comments on the Bill until the Committee stage. However, reference was made to clause 17, which amends section 798B of the principal Act in relation to carparking facilities. This provision is a reprint word for word of section 805 of the Local Government Act. In view of that, doubtless most honorable members will agree that it is working well. Separate rates have been struck in various areas for parking facilities at shopping centres and other matters have been dealt with without confusion. There has been no complaint from the Municipal Association of Victoria or from any other body. Therefore, I do not foresee the dangers referred to by honorable members.




Clause 2 (Representation of seal of municipality without authority an offence) .

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister without Portfolio) .-1 thank honorable members for their contributions to the debate, which have further informed me. Mr. Walton has circulated two amendments to clause 3, which I shall examine, and I have circulated amendments to clauses 12 and 20. As I desire a further opportunity in which to consider the matters raised during the secondreading debate, I suggest that progress be reported.



The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works). - I move-


I am sure this measure will receive the wholehearted support of honorable members. Its principal purpose is to provide for an increase in the number of assistant commissioners from three to five. This is one of the recommendations made by Sir Eric St. Johnston in his recent report. Honorable members are aware that the report contains many recommendations and it is the Government's intention that those recommendations should be implemented wherever possible. Many of them-those which refer to a reorganization of the for.ce, a change in the method of selectIon for promotion, and so on-may be done without the provision of additional funds and without amendment to the Police Regulation Act.

At a conference on the Thursday before Sir Arthur Rylab became ill, comprising the then Chief Secretary, the Under-Secretary, the Chief Commissioner of Police and Sir Eric St. Johnston, agreement was reached f.or the implementation of a substantIal number of recommendations contained in the St. Johnston report.

An essential prerequisite towards reorganizing the Poli.c~ Force i~. the creation of two addItIonal pOSItIOns of assistant commissioner. One will be Assistant Commissioner (Personnel) who will deal with recruiting, training, posting, medical, examinations for promotion, selection for pr?motion and welfare. The other wIll be Assistant Commissioner (Services) who will administer the provision of buildings and equipment, especially communications. He will be responsible for supplies to the force, including procurement and maintenance of vehicles.

It is clear tha t some further amendments will be necessary to the Police Regulation Act to give effect to other recommendations, but


initially the course proposed to create two additional positions of assistant commissioner is the most urgent. With the making of these appointments, it will then be practicable to set about the reorganization of the force, as recommended by Sir Eric St. Johnston.

The Bill also contains two other clauses. Clause 3 reduces from three months to one month the period of notice which a member of the force must give to the Chief Commissioner of Police of his intention to resign from the force. The Police Association has been urging for some time that the present statutory period of three months is unnecessarily long and the Chief Commissioner has expressed his agreement that the period should be reduced from three months to one month. The Government is prepared to agree to this.

Clause 4 provides for the appointment of a deputy chairman of the Police Service Board who may act in the absence of the chairman of the board. It is expected that the provision will allow the deputy chairman to familiarize himself with the requirements of the Act and regulations and the procedures followed in the Police Service Board jurisdiction. In this way it is hoped that when it becomes necessary to appoint a chairman, a County Court judge who has had experience in the office of deputy chairman will be available.

On the motion of the Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province), the debate was adjourned.


ADJOURNMENT. GIPPSLAND FLOOD DAMAGE-'TRAFFIC

HAZARD AT THE BOULEVARD, RICHMOND.


That the Council, at its rising, adjourn' until tomorrow, at Three o'clock.

The motion was agreed to. Session 1971.-159

The Hon. G. I... CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-1 move-


The Hon. D. E. KENT (Gippsland Province) .-1 direct the attention of the Leader of the House to the plight of many citizens in Gippsland who have been seriously affected by the recent floods. Many of the municipalities and other authorities have carried out extensive work to repair the damage which has occurred but now they are out of funds and unable to continue this essential work. Unless it is completed the residents of the area could be in danger. At present, many of the works have been left in an unsafe condition and much of the expenditure already incurred will be wasted if there is a further flood. 1 have received pleas from the Shire of Orbost and other authorities seeking clarification from the Premier and Treasurer on the assistance that will be available from the State Government. In a letter to me, the Orbost Waterworks Trust made the following comment:-

Repairs effected to both the sewerage outfall line and to the trust's water mains, in particular the supply to the township of Marlo and rural areas supplied by this line, are of a very temporary nature and could fail at any time due to causes over which no control can be exercised, thus bringing about a very critical situation in the area.

The shires of Maffra and Avon are in a similar position, as doubtless are other shires. They are most concerned that further damage may be caused because insufficient money is available to complete essential repair work. Farmers and sharefarmers in the area are suffering considerable hardship and will continue to suffer these hardships for a long time. The uncertainty is augmented by the fact that no information is available on what relief will be forthcoming. I realize that the responsibility rests not only on the State Government. The failure of the Federal Government to contribute to this assistance has made things difficult, but I appeal to the Minister of Agriculture to use what pressures

VICTORIA...VICTORIA PARL~NTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) FORTY -FIFTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION (1970-71)...

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Transcript of VICTORIA...VICTORIA PARL~NTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) FORTY -FIFTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION (1970-71)...