Transcript of “289 with Dr. Martin Polanco, Dr. Dan Engle and Deanne Adamson” · 2019-08-08 ·...

© The Bulletproof Executive 2013

Transcript of “289 with Dr. Martin Polanco, Dr. Dan Engle and Deanne Adamson”

Bulletproof Radio podcast #289

Bulletproof Toolbox Podcast #xx, name

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Speaker1: BulletproofRadio,astateofhighperformance.

Dave: Hey.It'sDaveAspreywithBulletproofRadio.Today'scoolfactofthedayisthatDMT,whichis

shortfordimethyltryptamine,isacompoundthat'ssecretedbyyourpinealglandinyourbrain,andit'sbeencalledthespiritmoleculeortheGodparticle.AndinmedicinewefiguredoutthatDMTissynthesizedbyourbody,andthesynthesizepeeksfrom3:00amto4:00am,anditcomesoutmostlywhenyoudie,whenyou'reonyourdeathexperience,ormaybewhenyou'reborn.Andthisisoneofthosesubstancesthatisinvolvedinsomeofthemostfamoushallucinogenssuchasayahuasca,whichwe'vetalkedaboutontheshowbefore.

Beforewegetintotoday's,intotoday'sshow,whichisdefinitelyaboutthiskindofuseofveryancientplantmedicinestocausereallyprofoundchanges,notasrecreationalsubstances,Iwanttotalkaboutarecreationalsubstances.It'scalled(laughs)aBulletproofCacaoTea,andifyouhaven'theardofthisstuff,it'smadeoftheouterskinofthecocoabean,andit'sgotareallyrich,amazing,chocolateflavor,butit'snotcreamyatall,soyoucanmake,like,ablackteaoutofitthatdoesn'tactuallyhavetea.

It'sreallygoodwithbutterandBrainOctane,butit'ssomethingalottapeoplejusthaven'theardabout.Justheadtobulletproof.com,clickonthecoffeedrinkstab,andyou'llfindtheseBulletproofCacaoTeathingsthatare,aretrulyamazing.It's...They'remore,muchmorerelaxingthancoffee,butthey'restillalittlebitstimulating,andit'ssomethingthatyoucansometimesdrinkintheeveningdependingonyourconstitution.Butit'soneofthoseplantthingsthat'samazing.

Hey,it'sDaveAsprey.Beforewegettotoday'sepisode,let'stalkalittlebitaboutTing.Ting'sakickasscompany,workingtodisruptareallybrokenmobileindustrywhereconsumersdon'thavechoice,freedom,ortransparencyfromthebigcorporateplayers.Yourphoneisapowerfultooltouseinperformancehacking,andyoushouldn'tberestrictedbyacontractorhavetochoosefromalonglistofdauntingphoneplans.Wouldn'titbesimplertojustpayforwhatyouuse?Here'showitworkswithTing,uselessonemonth,andyoupayless.Usemore,andyoupaymore.It'sassimpleasthat.

Tingnowhastwonationwidenetworkstochoosefrom.TheycandoSprint,T-Mobile,orGSMservice,whichmeansifyouhavegreatSprintorT-Mobilecoverage,you'llhavetheexact,samecoveragewithTing.Gotobulletproof.ting.com,andget$25inservicecreditifyoubringyourphonetoTing,orget25bucksoffselectphonesonTing'sshoppage.IuseTing.PeopleonmyteamuseTingandraveaboutit.NotsurewhatTingwillcostyou?Grabyourexistingbillandtestoutthesavingscalculatorlocatedatbulletproof.ting.com.Nocontracts,leaveanytimewithoutapenalty.Gotobulletproof.ting.comandsavesomemoney.Youdeserveit.

Today'sguestsareactuallythreepeople,andtheyallworktogether,andthisisaboutdrugaddiction,andit'sabouttreatment,andit'sabouthallucinogens.SoourfirstguestisDr.


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MartinPalonco,who'sthefounderanddirectoroftheCrossroadsTreatmentCenterinRosarito,Mexico,andthisisanall-inclusiveibogainedetoxtreatmentprogramthat'samongoneofthebestintheworld.Ibogaineisoneofthemostpowerfulhallucinogensoutthere,anditisusedverypreciselyforpeoplewhoareaddictedtoheroinorcocaine,andthishallucinogencomesfromAfricaratherthanthePeruvianrainforest.Andtheyalsouse5-MeO-DMT,whichwetalkedaboutinthecoolfactoftheday.

OursecondguestisDr.DanEngle,who'stheMedicalDirectoratCrossroadsIbogaineRecoveryCenter.He'saboardcertifiedpsychiatristandneurologistwithaclinicalpracticeinfunctionalmedicineandsomethingamazingcalledorthomolecularpsychiatry,whichiscompletelyamazing.It'showdonutritionalsubstanceslikevitaminsandmineralsaffectpsychiatry?Inotherwords,willyougocrazyifyouhavetoomuchof,ornotenoughof,certainvitaminsorminerals.That'scool.HealsodoesintegrativespiritualityandworkswiththeTempleoftheWayofLightAyahuascaCenterinPeru,andtheTrueRESTFloatCenterinTempe.

AndourfinalguestisDeanneAdamson,who'sthefounderofBeingTruetoYou,andsheworksasanaddiction/recovery/coachingspecialist,andworksaroundjustbuildingtransformationandfocusesonrecoverycoachtraining.Sothisisateamofpeoplewhoareapproachingthisproblem,wherewehavepeoplewhoare,aresick.They'readdictedtosubstances.They'readdictedtosubstances,notbecausethey'reweak;they'readdictedtosubstancesforareason,andthisteamofpeopleusesveryoldsubstancesthathaveaveryprofoundeffectonyourpsychologyandyourpsychiatryandyourneurobiologyandevenwhoyouareinordertotakepeoplefromthatstateofaddictionintoastateofnon-addictionwherethey'remuchmoreincontroloftheirlives.

Sothisisgoingtobeafascinatingconversation.I'msuper,superstokedtotalkaboutit,andbeforeweputnamestofaces,ifyou'rewatchingonYouTube,you'reprobablygoing,"Whattheyhell?Dave'swearingsunglassesthewholetimehe'sbeentalking."(laughter)Ifyou'reinyourcar,ifyou'reatwork,youactuallydon'tknow.No,I'madmittingit.ThesearemyIrlenlenses.That'sI-R-L-E-N.HelenIrlenhasbeenaguestontheshow.Shefiguredoutthat48%ofpeoplehavecolorsensitivities,whereyourbrainprocesslightdifferently.

I'moneofthosepeople.WhenIwearthesecustomtintglasses,Ihave,like,twiceasmuchenergythroughouttheday,andI'munderstudiolightsrightnow,soIjustdecidedatthelastminute,"I'mgonnawheremyIrlenlenses.I'mgonnalookalittlebitlikearockstarwithout,like,thecoolhairandallthatstuff,butI'mgonnafeelgoodforit.AndIbecameacertifiedIrlenpractitionerexactly36hoursagobecauseHelenwasupatmyhouseteachingmeandourmedicaldirector,andI'vealreadyfound2peoplewhohavescotopicsensitivityandshowedthemthattheycanreadwithlessenergyoutputjustbychangingafewcolorthings.SoI'mwearingmyglassestocelebratethatI'mlovingthisstuff.Andsorrytotakeusoff-trackthere.Let'stalkaboutcoolstuff.Welcometotheshow.

Dr.Dan: It'sgoodtobehereDave.


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Dave: It'salsoabitawkwardbecauseI'vegotMartin,Deanne,Dan,andwe'reon3differentSkypefeeds.I'veneverinterviewed3peopleoverSkypeatthesametime,sowewilleditthisend,ifnecessary,ifwetalkontopofeachother,butI'mhopingwedon'tdoittoomuch.Let's,let'stalkaboutthis,andIthinkDan,I,I'dliketoaskyouthisfirst.You'rethemedicaldirectoratarecoverycenterthatusesasubstancethat'sillegalinmanycountries.Now,thereisamedical,uh,HippocraticOath,uh,"Donoharm,"kindofthing.Iswhatyou'redoinginalignmentwiththat?

Dr.Dan: Totally.

Dave: Okay.How?

Dr.Dan: Well,whenyoulookattheaddictionratesnationallyandworldwide,they'vebeengoingupeveryyear,atleastsincethe...Themostrecentnumbersanddatalookedat,um,from2001to2014,thenumberofopiateaddictions,thenumberofprescriptionmedic-,medicationaddictions,um,drugsofabuse,andthosesameaddictiveratesalsomirrorthemorbidityrates,soyou'vehadmoredeathswithheroinaddiction,withopiatemedications,withcocaine,withotherdrugsofabuse.Sosomethingisconsistentlydrivingthetrajectoryofbothprescriptiondruguseandprescriptiondrugoverdosewhenusedinappropriately,particularlyontheopiateside,um,inthewrongdirection.

Weknowconsistently...and,again,thesearejustsmallstudiesbecausenoone'sdonealargebroad-based,um,consumerstudyatthispointforibogaoribogaine...butconsistently,whenheldintherightsetandsettingandsupportedwithintegrativerecoverycoaching,usuallythatlookslikesoberlivingontheothersideofsomethinglikeibogaine.Ifsomebody'scominginforanopiateaddiction,weconsistentlyseepeopledoextraordinarilywellandabove,beyondwhatthestandardrateofaddictionrecoveryisintoday'smedicine.

Whenyoulookatbroad-basedcomparatives,um,yourgeneralsuccessrateforopiateaddictionrightnowinthestandardtreatmentofcaremodelformedicineinthecountryisabout10%to20%.10%isprobablyalittlebitmoreaccurate.20%isalittlebitmorerobust,uh,butthat'susuallywheretreatmentrangesfallfrom,fallinto.Whenyoulookatibogaine,consistently...again,whenhel-,whenheldwell,andrecovery,re-,coachingandintegrationisinplace...thesuccessrateis,like,60%to70%.That's4timesgreaterrecoveryrate...

Dave: Wow.

Dr.Dan: ...fromsomethingthatisveryr-,robustandefficientathelpinginterruptaddictionneurochemistry.Youjusthada400%successrate,comparatively,withibogaineversusanythinginthestandardmedicalarsenalrightnow.That'swhywe'recurioustostudyitonamorelargepopulation-based,um,morerigorousorientationmethodologysothatitcanbecomevalidated,thatwecanhavethesediscussionswiththelargermedicalandpsychiatriccommunityaboutwhat'shappening.It'sobviousthatthecurrentmodelisnotworking.The,theratesaregoingupandupconsistentlyoverthelast14years,sosomethinghasto,hastohappen.And,sothat'smypersonalmissioninmyprofessionalcodeofethicstobeabletodonoharm.


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AndIalsohaveapersonalmissionthatwasdrivenbyafamilycrisiswhenmysisterdied,and

shediedfromaddiction,anditreallycalledintoquestiontome,like,everythingthatshehadtriedtodointhestandardmodeldidn'twork.U-,ultimatelyitdidn'twork.Itworkedforperiodsoftime,butultimatelyitdidn'twork,andwhenshedied,Ihadareallystrongref-,reflectivepoint.Like,"AmIpracticingthemosteffectivemedicinepossible?"Andtheanswerwasno,soIstartedtolookforthat,andibogaandibogaine...wecouldtalkaboutthedifferenceslater...um,theycomeoutasthemostdeep,cleansing,addictioninterrupterthatweknowontheplanet,barnone.

Dave: Thatisa,aprettyprofoundstatement.Ibelievethatit'slegalinCanadarightnow,butit'sillegalintheUS,right?

Dr.Dan: It'stechnicallyillegalin5countriesinthewholeworld,andtheUSisoneof'em.

Dave: Uh,itdoesn't,doesn'tsurpriseme...

Dave: It'sbeenonmylisto-,ofthingsI'dliketotryintherightcircumstancesformm,oh,about15years,sinceIfirstreadaboutit.It'sbeen,like,oneofthosethingsthatcouldbeactuallyitj-,helpdrivepersonalawareness.Idon'thaveanaddictionissue.

Dr.Dan: Mm-hmm(affirmative).

Dave: And,andI'm,I'mnota,I'mnotaparticularlyrecreationaldruguser,neverhavebeen,uh,mywholelife.Uh,I,I'mnota,a,I'mnotafrequentpotsmokeratall.Uh,butIdobelievethatsomeofthesethingsliketheayahuascaI'vedonewitha,withashamaninPeru,Ihavetransformationalpotentialforpeoplewhoarenotsickornotaddictedbecausethere'sveryfewpeoplewhoare,sayfullyenlightened.(laughter)There'salwaysroom,there'salwaysroom...

Dr.Dan: Doit.(laughs)

Dave: ...forustodoa,alittlebitmore.

Dr.Dan: Always.Oh,yeah,there'salwaysmoreworktodo.

Dave: Soyou're,you'retargetingthisatpeoplewhoareinaprettydarkplace.Uh,I've,I'veworkedwithaddicts,I'veknownaddictsand,andthere'salottasufferingthathappensthere.What,uh,whataboutfortherestofthepeoplelisteningtothis?Isthissomethingthat,youknow,youraveragepersonwhomeditatesmightconsidertryingthenexttimetheygotoacountrywhereit'slegal,oristhissomethingthat,like,unlessyou'rereallykindascrewedup,like,kindasteerclearbecauseapparentlyit'sareallyroughexperience.

Dr.Dan: Uh,Ithinkthef-,fortheaverageperson,thetruthisprobablysomewhereinthemiddle.


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Dave: Okay.

Dr.Dan: Um,ifsomebody'sneverhikedbefore,Iwouldn'tsaygotryEverest.(laughter)

Dave: That'safairpoint?

Dr.Dan: Right?AndifyoudodecidetogotoEverest,pleasehaveaguideandknowyourrouteandgo

reallytrainedwellwithsomedeeppreparation.Youknow,sothere'sall,there'sthese,these,thesethingsthathelpmaximizethepotentialforsuccess.Um,mostpeople,Idon'tbelieve,requireibogaine.Uh,mostpeoplecoulddoalotofpersonaldevelopmentworkforsure,andmostpeoplethat's...Iwouldsaythesamethingaboutmanyofthepsychedelics,they're,they'renotprobablyrightformostpeoplewherethatpersonisatthatgiventimebecausem-,ideally,inmyexperience,itreq-,those,thoseinterventionsrequireafairbitofpersonaldevelopmentworkanddeeprespect.

Dave: A-,aheadoftimeyou'resaying?

Dr.Dan: Aheadoftime.Andmeditation'sagreatpreparationpracticetoheadintoanyexperiencelikethatwith...Because,ontheotherside,thisiswheretherubbermeetstheroad,ispeoplearegonnaopenupintheexperience,theyalwaysdo,andit'samazingthatIcansay,"Okay.Yeah,preparation'sgreat,"andoftentimesatCrossroads,weseepeoplerightoffthestreet.Heroinjunkies,foryears,comeinandhaveanamazingexperience,and,well,it'sprettyprofoundtoseetheirneurochemistryandtheirentirephysiologyand,andth-,theirentirebeingbetransformedina36-to48-hourprocess.

It'samazingtowatchthathappenand,still,that'sjustoneblipintheradar.That'sthe,that'stheCPRsotospo-,sotospeak,it'sthecrisispoint,uh,recalibration,andsocrisisdrovethemtothatexperience,andtheintegrationwillhelpthemmaintainthebenefitsofthatexperiencemovingforwardintheirlife,justliketakingyourmeditationoffthecushionintolifeortakingyouryogaoffthematintolife,theintegrationiswheretheygetto,tomaintainthegainsofthenewtrajectory,thenewselfthat'sawakened.

Butifsomebodygoesbackintotheirusualhomeofe-,homeoftheirusualenvironment,theusualhomestressors,theusualkindoflifestyle,uh,that'swhenIseepeopledonotverywellatallbecausetheyjustthoughttheycouldhavethisbigexperience;theygetcompletelyopenedup,andtheytryandjumprightbackintolifeagainandhaveareallyrockyroad.Thesemedicinesdeservetheirdue,deeprespectwithpreparation,agood,safeexperience,andareallystrongintegration.Sofortheaverageperson,um,Ithinkthattherearethingstodobeforetoprepthatpersonsothattheyhavethebestchanceforsuccess.But,yes,wedotakepeopleincrisismodeallthetime,and,andtheycandowell,too.

Dave: Dr.Martin,wejusttalkedabouta36-to48-hourtransformativeexperience,whichisarelativelyshortamountoftimefortransformation.Whathappensatyourclinic?You,youtakesomeoneinwhohasaseriousproblemwith,withheroinorcocaine...theseareaddictivedrugs...andthewalkinthedoor,andwhathappens?


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Dr.Martin: Sotheprocessstartsbeforetheywalkinthedoor.TheytalktoacoachfromBeingTrueto

You,whohelpsthempreparefortheexperience.WhentheyarriveinSanDiegoonMonday'swhichisthedaywhenourpatientsarescheduled.Wepickthemupfromtheairport,andwedrivethemtotheclinicinTijuana.Wetakelabwork.WedoanEKG.Wemakesurethey'rehealthy,andwestabilizethemonpharmaceuticalopiates,sowecannotgivethemheroinforobviousreasons,butwecangivethemmorphinesothatthey'recomfortable.Wewaitacoupleofdaystogettoknowthem,tomakesurethatthey'rehealthyandthatotherunderlyingissues,uh,thattheyhavearetreatedandsurface.AndthenusuallyonWednesdaynighttheygettreatmentwithibogaine.

Dave: Soyougiveittothematnight.Dotheydrinkit,snortit,smokeit?I'massumingmostpeoplelisteninghavenotheardofibogaoribogaine...

Dr.Martin: Correct.

Dave: ...orknowthedifference.

Dr.Martin: Yeah,sotheibogaineisgivenincapsuleform.It'sawhitepowder.It's,uh,uh,saltmadefromtheibogashrub,whichcontainsjustibogaine,whichistheprincipalalkaloidintheiboga.

Dave: Okay.Sothetakea,acapsule.Howmuchdotheytake?

Dr.Martin: Well,it'sdependingonbodyweightanddependingontheaddiction.Um,generally,we'regivingpatientsanywherefrom16upto20milligramsperkilogram.Um,thatisaprettyheftdose,whichisaverystrongexperience.Andthereasonwhywegivethesebiddosesisbecausewehavetoovercomethewithdrawalfromopiates.

Dave: Okay.

Dr.Martin: Ifweweretousealowerdosethenonthesubsequentdays,theymightexhibitsomeresidualwithdrawalsymptoms,whichthenwehaveto,to,toaddress.

Dave: Okay.I'mconsideringcomingdownthere...

Dr.Martin: Mm-hmm(affirmative).

Dave: ...um,if,iflike,ifit'skosher,uh,withallthemedicalandwhateverapprovals,uh,becauseI,I'dliketoexperiencethisina,inasafesettingandseeiftherewereimprovementsinmylifethatIwasn'texpecting.Um,ifsomeonewhocamedown,likeme,whoisnotin,uh,uh,notin,inaaddictioncrisis,whatwouldatypicaldosagebe?

Dr.Martin: Sothedosagethatweuseforwhatwecallpsychospiritualpatients,it'sbetweenanywherefrom8to12milligramsperkilogram.

Dave: Okay.


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Dr.Martin: Andwehaveaseparateprogramsetupforpatientswhodon'thaveaddictivebehaviors,at

leastnotsubstanceabusedisorder...

Dave: Uh-huh(affirmative).

Dr.Martin: ...andthatisovertheweekend.Sowetrynotto...

Dave: Yeah.

Dr.Martin: ...mixpatientpopulations.

Dave: Oh,th-,thatmakesgoodsense,somy,mybiohackingaddictionwhereIkeep...

Dr.Martin: (laughs)

Dave: ...sittinginhyperbaricoxygenchambers,youcanhelpmewiththis?

Dr.Martin: (laughs)Correct.Ifyouconsiderthattobeaproblemthen...

Dave: No,Idon't.(laughter)Allright.So,sotheycomein.Theytakethecapsules.Howsoonaretheygonnastartfeelingalittlewonky?

Dr.Martin: Itcantakeanywherefrom45minutesupto2hoursbeforethey...

Dave: okay

Dr.Martin: ...feeltheeffectsofthemedicine.

Dave: Andwhendoestheprojectilevomitingstart?

Dr.Martin: (laughs)Oh,yeah,patientsdoexperiencenausea,butnoteverybodyvomits.

Dave: Okay.

Dr.Martin: Andit'sa,itisamovement-inducednauseasoit'sa...The,themedicinecausessomethingcalledataxia,whichisaninabilitytocoordinatebodymovement.

Dave: Okay.

Dr.Martin: Andwhenpatientsgetup,andtheymovetheirheadtooquickly,then,yes,uh,vomitingcanoccur.

Dave: So,basically,ifyousawmedancing,you'veseenataxia,soIgotit.(laughter)Allright.Uh,sowehavepeoplewhoaregonnabemovingslowlyorthrowingupiftheydon't.Uh,thenwhatdotheyexperience?


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Dr.Martin: SoIthinkthebestpersontotalkaboutthiswouldbeDeanne.

Dave: Allright.

Dr.Martin: Shehastalkedtothousandsofpeoplebeforeandafteribogaine,soshecanreallyexplainthe

experienceingreatdetail.

Dave: Allright.Deanne,h-,hookusup.What'sgonnahappenifweswallowoneofthesewhitepills?

Deanne: So,yeah,ibogaineisquiteanexperience.Ithasabout4phasestoit;2phases,uh,forthefirst12hours.So,typically,whenwedothemedicine,you'regonnadoitovernight.Soyouwouldstartmaybearound8:30pmatnight,9:00,somethinginthere.Um,asMartinsays,themedicine'seffectswillstarttohit,uh,maybewithinthefirsthour,butwe'relookingatbetween2and3hours,um,reallyescalatinguptoitspeak.Thefirstphasethatpeoplemoveintoiswhat'scalledthevisionaryphase.Um,inthevisionaryphase,peoplearegoingtoexperienceahallucinationwithall5senses.

Sothey'llstart,um,feelingorhearingauditoryhallucinations,starttoseesomevisualtracersiftheireyesareopenontheoutside.Eyesclosed,you'regonnastarttosee,uh,visions,kindoflikedreamlikevisionswithinyourmind.Um,youcanstarttoevensmellthings,tastethings,andfeelthingsthataren'tthere,soit'squiteanintenseexperienceintermsof,um,thepsychoactivepropertiesofibogaine.Um,thevisionaryexperiencesaremorelikeadreamlikeexperiencethananyothermedicine,sowhenyougointothis...AndI'lljustsay,maybetwo-thirdsofpeopleseevisions,sonoteverybodyseesvisions,butofthepeoplethatdo,uh,they'redreamlikevisionsthatgivealifereviewinmoreofanon-linearfashion.

So,again,thebestwaytoexplainitwouldbeadreamlikestatewherethere'sjustflashesofimages,um,throughoutaperson'slife.It'salmostlikethementalfileswithinsomebody'sbrainarejustbeingopenedupandallofthisinformation,alloftheseimages,allofthesememories,um,thingsthatpeoplerememberordon'tremember,itcouldevenbethings,um,fromapastlifetimeorfromancestralexperiencesbecausewedon'talwaysremembertheseexperiences,andweknowwehaven'thadallofthem,butallofthisstuffjuststartstounleash,andit'slikewatchingamovieonthebackofyoureyelidsasyougothroughyourwhole,entirejourneyfrombirthuntilwhereyouarenow.

Andinthisexperience,youknow,your,yourbodyisenergeticallypulsatingandvibratingprettyhard.Soyou'relayingtherestill.LikeDr.Martinsays,youmightfeelquiteataxic,alittlebit,um,slightlyparalyzed.Youdon'tfeelyourbody.Youjustlaytherestill,andthemorestillthatyouare,theeasieritisactuallytorelaxintotheexperience.Asyoulaythere,you'llfeelthis,likeheavypulsationgoingthroughyourbody,maybeatinglingsensation,sometimesa,abuzzing,um,aroundyourhead.Youmightstarttofeelalittlebitwarm,mightcyclebackbetweencoldandhot.Andsotheintensityofitisstayingrelaxedasmuchaspossiblementallyandphysically,um,throughallofthesedifferentkindsofhallucinationssothatyoucanbepresentfortheexperience.


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Andintheexperience,it's,it'sverydifferentwhatcomesupforpeople.Butthatisacommonexplanationthatpeoplehave,isthisvisionaryexperiencethat'sproviding'emalifereviewthatisopeningupallthosementalfiles,sotheycanseewherethey'reblocked;wherethere'sunfinishedbusinessintheirlife;wheremaybethe,um,falsebeliefsystemsare;theinsecurities;thejudgments;justallthatstuffthatwecarrythatblocksusthatweusuallydon'thaveaccessto.Alottapeoplewillsaythattheyha-,feellikethey'vehad100or1000hoursoftherapyinjustonenight'sworkbecausethere'sno,um,thirdpartyinterruptingthatflow.It'sjustyouinsideofyourpsyche,navigatingthroughtheinnerworkingsofyourmind.

Andinthisexperience,you'reabletoseehowyouhavebeenconditionedsincebirthtoseeyourself,others,andlifeinaveryparticularway.Andsoit'savery,um,therapeuticexperience.It'sself-assistedtherapy,really,asyou'reinhere,thestrategiesandwhatwedoinourpreparationandourtrainingistosurrenderthecomfortzonesothatyoucanrelaxandmeltintothisexperience,again,soyoucanshowupanddoworkwiththemedicine'causethere'salotofopportunitiesinthese12,24,and36hours,butyouhavetobeabletosettleyourselfenoughthroughallthepsychoactivepropertiesofibogaine,whichisquitealot.

Dave: So,uh,itsoundslike,uh,quiteatrip,sotospeak.

Deanne: (laughs)

Dave: The,therearelotsofpeoplelisteningwhoarephilosophicallyopposedtohallucinogens,um,actually,forreasonsIdon'tunderstand.Ibelieveit'smybiology.IshouldbeabletousewhateverchemicalsIwantinmyownbiologybecauseit'smine.Uh,butthatisasomewhatradicalview.Igetit.Uh,andi-,firstofall,isthereanyaddictionpotentialforthisstuffthatlastsfor36hours,makesitsoyoucan'tmoveandthrowsup?(laughs)Like,areyougonnagetaddictedtoibogaine?(laughter)

Deanne: No,andanybodywhodoesibogainewilltellyouthatthe,the,that'snotpossible.(laughs)

Dave: Yeah,liketheworld'sharshestmasochistcouldnotbeaddictedtothestuff,correct?

Dr.Dan: Highlyunlikely.

Dave: Yeah.Uh,okay.So,sojustsothat'sreallyclear,thisisnot...And,andwouldyoutakeitandgotoaparty?(laughter)Exactly.Thisissofarremovedfromthestereotypeofahallucinogen.Youdon't,youdon'ttakeibogaineandgoontherollercoastersatDisneyland.Like,it,andit's,it'sjustnotwhatit'sforand,andwhat,whatyoudo.Sotherearepeoplewhoneedtohearthatwhoarelisteningwho,whoarejustthinking,"Oh,theseguysare,like,gonnagethighandsayit's,it'sforaddiction.It,it'snotlikethat.It,it'sa,aprofoundexperience.Buttherearestillpeoplewhosaylike,"Idon'twannadosomethinglikethat,"andtherearewaysofaccessingthesestates.Like,I'vedoneholotropicbreathworkwithStanGrof,theguywhoinventedit.HeusedLSDwithhis10,000patientsuntilitwasillegal,andhereplaceditwithbreathing.

Male: Mm.


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Dave: Andthenthere'sfloattanks.Ihavefloattank,actually,about25-feetfrommein,uh,hereat

BulletproofLabsonVancouverIsland.Sohowdoesthe,thedepthandlength,andjust...Howdoestheexperienceofibogainecomparewith,like,floatingorwithholotropicbre-,breathwork?

Dr.Dan: Eh,Ithey're,theyallhavesomesimilarity.Youknow,whenLillyfirststartedexperimentingwithsensorydeprivationtanks,uh,hediditasae-,personalexplorationmodality.Hewasr-,reallywasn'tevenlookingatthephysiologicalfacts.Um,andallofthosemethodologiesyoujusttalkedabout,aswellasfastingandgoingonvisionquestsanddoingawholehostofotherpracticeshavethesameeffect,andwhatarewedoing?We'retryingtoseparateourconsciousegothattriestocontroleverything,we'retryingtos-,toseparatethatfromadeeper,truersenseofwhoweare,andwhowecanpotentiallybecomewhenwe'renotaddictedtoavarietyofthingslikework,orsex,ordrugs,ordistraction,or...

Dave: OrFacebook.

Dr.Dan: ...whateveritis...orFacebook,right?Right?

Dave: (laughs)

Dr.Dan: 'Causeweliveinsuchabusysociety...

Dave: Mm-hmm(affirmative).

Dr.Dan: ...wheretraumaisnotreallyheldintheunderstandingofasacredcontainerthatcanbedulyprocessed.It,itwas,I...Iwasjustreading...SoI'mfinishingupabookrightnow,andIasked,um,Ijustpostedouttheretosomefriends,andIsaid,"Sendmesomeofyourmosti-,inspiringquotesforstories'causeI'm,I'dlikeeverybody'sinputandw-,we'llputthisintothebook.And,um,somebodysentmethisrealcoolstoryabout,um,oneoftheRwanda,um,genocidesurvivors...Whentherewasjustmassmurder,itwashorrendous,andtherewasUNaideworkersthatwentinforpsychologicalreliefworktohelppeople,um,reallydecompressthetrauma.Andwe,um,a-,in,inourWesternviewofpsychologyandtraumaandourownmindsetabouthowtodr-,addressit,wenttogointerveneinthespiritofbenefit,and(laughs)the,the,theaideworkersgotkickedoutbythe...

Dave: Ah.

Dr.Dan: ...Rwandansurvivorsbecausethestorygoes,um,theseguys,the,you...Yousentpeopletohelpus,andthey,theydidn't,uh,theydidn'thaveanyrespectofdanceormovementtomovethetraumathrough.Theyhadussitincubiclesbyourselveswithnolight,nocommunity,talkingaboutthingsthatmadeusfeelhorrible.

Dave: (laughs)


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Dr.Dan: It'skindof...Whatkindofsupportisthat?Wehadtokickthemout.(laughs)Right?Itwaslike,itwas,anditjust...Itreallybroughtmebacktoareflectionpointofwedon'tknowwhatwedon'tknow.We're,we'retaughtfromourparticularmi-...Particularlyfrommedicaltraining,we'retaughtthattraumalooksaparticularway,andyoutreatitaparticularway.Andsowhat,whatwehavetheopportunitytodonowistoreallyjusthaveabroadspectrumdiscussionabout:Whatistrauma?Whatispersonaldevelopment?Whatarethe,whatarethevarietyofopti-,optionsandopportunitiestocomeintoahealingexperience?Whatdomostpeopleexperienceinthemidstofsomethingthatcouldbedescribedasahallucinogenorapsychedelic?

Butitmightbesimplysomethingthathastribalcustomthat'sbeenusedforhundreds,itnotthousands,ofyearsforpersonalreliefoftrauma,orifyou'renothealingfromsomethingparticularlytraumatizing,foratleastaspiritualexperiencethatcanbes-,akintoanawakening.Soit'snotaglobalprescription,butwhenyoustarttolookatthedata,andyoustarttonormalizepeople'sexperience,um,goingthroughtheprocessofanaturalmedicineandreceivingimmensebenefitwitharelativelowsideeffectprofile,whenit'sheldwell,uh,it's,itkindath-,there'snosellingthatneedstohappen;it'saprettyobviouspotentialopportunity,andforthosethatdecidetogodownthatroute,formanypeople,um,it's,it'sbeneficialwhenit'slegalandofferedinagoodwaybecause,rightnow,it'snotlegal.

Manyofthepsychedelicmedicinesinthiscountryarenotlegal,sopeoplearefindingothermeanstodothem.Andthatdoesn'tmeanthatyou'restoppingtheuseatall,youknow,ChasingtheScreamtalkedaboutthatwhen,um,Portugallegalizedalldrugsofabuse,anddrugusewentdown,andcrimerateswentdown,andmortalitywentdown,andoverdr-,overdosewentdownbecausethere,therew-,therewasn'tthewar.Andtheneverythingthathadbeenspentofthewarwasputintosocialinfrastructureandeducationandsafe-useclinicsandconnection.Andthen,allofasudden,whenyou'reconnectedtoyourfriendsandfamily,there'sno,there'snotasmuchofadesiretodisconnect,whichisreallywhat,youknow,drugsofabusedoandpainkillersdoispeoplearejusttryingtodisconnectfrompain,andit'sunderstandable,there'salottapainintheworldrightnow.

Dave: There'sastudythatrecentlymadetheroundswheretheytookmiceorratsthatwereaddictiontococaineandwhentheystarted,theysaid,"Well,they'lltakethecocaineuntiltheydie.Theydrinkitfromthebottle."Butifyouputtheminafunenvironmentwithfriends,theyactuallyquitdrinkingthecocainewateranddrinkthenormalwater,like,theygooffofit.

Dr.Dan: Right.Totally...

Dave: ...whichis...Likeiscommunityoneofthecuresforaddiction,uh,whichI,Ithinkyoujusthighlightedthere?Butyoualsotalkedabouttraumaandsomeoftheseothertechnologies.Sowehaveibogaine,andwehaven'treallyduginonthe5-MeO-DMTthatyoualsouse...andwe'lltalkaboutthatinaminute...butyoutalkedaboutfastingand,uh,andthingslikethat.SoI've,I'vefastedinacaveinthedesertona4-dayvisionquestledbyashaman.Ihave,uh,electromagnetic,computer-controlledstuffthat'llputyouinanout-of-bodyexperienceveryquickly8feetfrommyheadrightnow.It'snotturnedon.Don'tworry.Um,(laughs)but,uh,


14

andI,Idothis40yearsofZenneurofeedbackthingwhereI've,I'veleftmybodycountlesstimesallinthe,thecourseofunderstandingmoreabout,like,what'sgoingoninsidethere.

Istartedoutonthispathwith,like,tonsoftrauma.Like,I,Iwasbornwiththecordwrappedaroundmyneck,andI'vere-patternedbirthPTSD.Andforpeopletosay,"Oh,God.Quitwhining."Youknowwhat?Poundsand,guys.Like,thathadaprofoundeffectonmylife,andIfixedit,butIhadtoacknowledgethatithadaneffectinordertofixit.Andusinghallucinogenscanhelppeoplebecomeawareoftraumasthey'renotawareofthataretotallyinvisible,andthenwhenyoufixthat,orwhenyoubecomeawareofit,thenyoucanprocessit.Anditsoundstome,butnothavingtriedibogaine,buthavingtriedDMTandhavingtriedayahuasca,like,there'sacommonalitytherewherethey,theyletyougainawarenessofthesepatternsthatarehappeninginyourbodyorinyourlifethatareinvisibletoyouand,and...AmIsayingthisright?Isthiswhat'sactuallyhappening?

Dr.Martin: Yeah,Ithinkthat's,that'swellsaid.

Dave: Mm-hmm(affirmative).'Kay.

Dr.Dan: Yeah.

Dr.Martin: Yeah,itallowsyoutotakea,adifferentperspective.Um,manypatientsthatcometoushaveahistoryofsexualtrauma,especiallyfemalepatients,andibogaineallowsthemtoenterthisstateofbeinganobserverintheroomwherethetraumahappened,uh,butwithoutanemotionalattachmenttotheexperience,sothere'snoemotionalpain,butthey'reabletoseethisthroughtheeyesofanadult.Soifthetraumahappenedwhentheywerechen-,children,thenthatgotencodedinacertainway,andthey'reabletorecontextualizethisexperience.

Dave: Wow.

Dr.Martin: Alotofthetraumaisencoded,um,beforetheageof5,soitis...


Dr.Martin: ...uh,preverbal,sowedon'treallyhaveaccesstoitthroughnormalpsychotherapyorpsychoanalysisand,andthat'swhyit'ssohardto,toaccessthese,thesememories.Butwithibogaine,you're,you'rereallyabletogobackandevenseememoriesyoudon'tknowyouhad,um,andreallyworkthroughthemandeitherforgive,forget,orletgoofcertainthingsthatarenotservingyou.

Dave: SoI,Iknowpeoplethat,infact,evenfamilymemberswhoareprofoundlydisturbedbytheideathatyoumighthavememoriesthatyoudon'tknowyouhave.(laughter)Howcanyouhaveamemoryyoudon'tknowyouhave?Itmeansyoudidn't...

Dr.Martin: Mm-hmm(affirmative).Mm-hmm(affirmative).

Dave: ...rememberit,right?


15

Dr.Martin: Mm-hmm(affirmative).

Dave: Like,d-,helpmeunderstandthatorhelp,orsayhelplistenersunderstand.Iknowverywell

thatIwashidingthingsfrommyself,but,butforsomeonewhohasn'texperiencedthatcan,canyou,like,explainitalittlebitbetter?

Dr.Dan: Yeah,the,uh,thesubconsciousmindislikeataperecorder,anditrecordseverything.Andtherehavebeencountlessstudiesthathavelookedatthisthroughhypnotherapy,andhypnotherapy'saclassicpsychiatricresourcetooltouncoverhiddenmemories,andit'ssim-,similartotheworkoffacilitatingdeepmedicinework,likewe'retalkingaboutherewithpsychedelics.Um,ittakesalottatrainingtoknowhowtodoitwell,todoitskillfully,todoitwithcleanenergy,with,withouttryingtoshapeit,withouttryingtomakeanythinghappen,butjustsimplybeingasupportivewitnesstoallowingtheexperiencetocomeontothescreensothatthepersonrelivingitandhealingcanseeithappen,andlike,um,Dr.Paloncosaid,toreliveitfromthe,the,theplaceofamoredispassionateobserver,andthentohaveacorrectiveex-,experiencesothatitcanberesolved.Soweknowthatmuchofthedevelopmental,um,psychologicalframeworkissetinthepersonabytheageof,say,4or5.Thatcomesfromamountainofchilddevelopmental...

Dave: Yeah.

Dr.Dan: ...psychologicalresearchinthe60sand70s.Andweknowthatthelanguagecenter'sandmemorycenter'sconnectionaremyelinatedandformedaroundthatsameageof,like,4to5,6yearsold,aboutthetimewegointoelementaryschool.Soyouhavesomuchofthepersonalitythat'ssetby,say,5yearsold,andsomuchofthatpersonalityissetinawaythat'sdifficulttoaccessbecausethe,thebraincentersandneuropathwayshadnotyetevenformedtoallowlanguageforthatexperiencetobeheldinmemoryovertime.Soit'sphysiologicallychallengingtoaccessthat.Somepeoplehaveamazingrecallofveryearlyexperience,andit'sphenomenaltoseethathappen.Noone'sr-...Idon't,Ihaven'tseenaunifiedtheoryasfaraswhysomepeoplehavethatbetterexperience.Idon'tthinkit's,like,becausemostpeoplehavehadsuchshittychallengesthattheyrepressedit.Ithinksomepeoplejusthavegreatrecall.It'sfairlyuncommon.

Mostpeopledonothavegreatrecallpriorto4,andsoit'sdifficulttogetintothatearlystuff,andsoitcanbe,um,amazingtoseewhatisrevealed,andyoujust,youjusttalkedabout2amazingexperiencesthatyouhadrevealed.Um,andsomethinglikeflotationtherapycangetyoutothatspacebecauseit'ssuchadeepdisconnection.It'salsothefirsttimewe'vebeenwithoutsensoryexperiencesincewewereconceived,right,nogravity,nosight,nosound,notemperature,um,somostofwhatthebrainisfieldinggoesaway,andthenyouhavethis,like,the,thesubconscioushastheopportunitytonowkindofpaintitselfontoablankcanvasinatank.It'sphenom-...Floatingisaphenomenalallyforjustaboutanywork'causeanybodycandoit.

Um,andsoitcanbereallybothfascinatingtoseewhatcomesup,anditcanbescary,particularlyif,ifsomebodyhasasuspicionthatsomething'stherethattheyreallydon't


16

wannalookat.Well,you'vegottabewillingtolookatsomescarystufftobew-,to,tochoosetogointothe,thepsychedelicwork,andusually,again,youknow,alotofthepeoplethatwesee,particularlyatCrossroadsthathavebeenaddictedtoheroin,they'reincrisis...

Dave: Yep.

Dr.Dan: ...andthey'reatthechoicepoint,like,"IfIdon'tmakeaninterventionnow,I'mgonnadie,"right,sothey'realreadyincrisismode,willingtodowhateverittakestomakeasignificantshift.Not,noteverybody'satthatcrisispoint,soitcanbereallyrocky.AndIthinkthat'swhytheintegrationworkisevenmoreimportant.AndStanGrofwouldtalkaboutthattoowhenhetalkedaboutspiral-,spiritualemer-,hewr-,wroteagreatbookofhislifecalledSpiritualEmergence...


Dr.Dan: ...anditwaslikethisspiritualemergencyofallofthe,thereclaimedtraumathat'snowonthescenethat,thathastheopportunityandtheprivilegeandtherequirementtobeprocessedandintegratedwell,aswellasthenewselfthat'snowcleansed,comingonlineandrealizinglike,"Whoa,holycow,maybeIdon'twannalivethewayofbeenliving,andthatmeansI'mgonnamakeallthesechangesthatcanbekindofrocky."It,it,itrequiresalottasupportontheotherside.

Deanne: AndIthinkit'simportanttomentionhere,too,withthepsychedelics,sometimeswhenpeopleareincrisisorhavingareallystrong,emotional,um,experiencesintheirlife,it'sdifficulttositdowninmediationorevenusethingslikefloattanksforthedurationthattheywouldneedto,tobeabletogetintothatstate.Andthingsliketheplantmedicineslikeibogaine,whattheyallowisthatquickentranceintothedeepestpartofthepsycheforpeoplewhodon'thavethecapacity,thementalcapacityorthepatiencetobeabletoengageinsomeoftheseothermeasures.Weallknowthere'salotofwaystoaccessinformationwhetherit'sthroughtherapy,orhypnotherapy,ormeditation,orfloattanks,orsoon,buttheplantmedicineisgonnainvitesomebodyintothatspaceimmediately.

Dave: So,soI,I'mrelativelywellknownforsaying,"Hurryandmeditatefaster."

Deanne: Mm.

Dave: (laughter)Um,whichlike,"Oh,comeon."But,buthere'sthedeal;Imeditatewithelectrodesonmyhead.Uh,that,that'sthewholethingaround40YearsofZen,andit'scalledthatbecauseit'slikealifetimemeditation,7days.Youcanputyourbraininastatewherei-,y-,youprobablywouldn'tgetthereevenifyoumeditatedallweek,andsoI'm,I'mfundamentallylazy.IfIdobre-,breathingexercises,I'llhavemyheartmasssensorattached,sowhenIdoitwrongIgetasignal,andIcandoitright,and,andthisisjustaboutreturnonunitof,ofeffort,right?

Sowhatitsoundslikehereisthatifyou'regoingtospend3days,or7days,how-,howeverlongitendsupbeing,um,reallypushing,reallyworkingon,onmakingprogress,youcould


17

floatforanhouradayor2hoursadayuntilyourskingetsreallydry,uh,andyou'dgetsomevaluefromthat,andthatwouldbemorevaluethanifyousatinadarkroomandmeditated.ButifyouwentdowntoCrossroads,andyoutriedibogaineinastructuredsettingormaybetheDMTthatyouguysuse,youmightmakemoreprogressinthesameamountoftime.A-,amIsayingthataccurately?

Deanne: Absolutely,and,youknow,I'lladdonthat,what'samazingwhenyou'reinthatspaceisthattheinformationorthemessagingthatyourownselfiscommunicatingtoyouisexaggerated,soit'ssuchapowerfultimetoreallymonitorandobservethedifferentvoicesinyourheadthatarecontrollingyourdailypatterns,yourcognitivepatterns,youremotionalpatterns,yourbehavioralorrelationalpatternsareallstemmingfromthesecorebeliefs.Andwhenyou'reunderthemedicine,everythingbecomesmagnified,soit'smucheasiertodrawouttheinformationthatyouneedsothatyoucanseewhat'sblockingyou,andyoucanseewhatyouneedtodotochangetomoveforward.So,yeah,absolutely.

Dave: Okay.S-,soI,uh,forpeoplelisteningtothis,nowyou'regoing,"Allright.Like,thisisalittlebitcrazy."Ifthisisthekindofthingthat,that'sinterestingtoyou,thenpotentiallya,aceremonialhealingkindofuseofoneofthesesubstancesmightgoinyourbucketlistsomewhere,andit'snoteasytodo.It'snotcheap,andit'snotfun.(laughs)Youmighthaveapeakexperience,(laughs)butfewpeakexperiencescomewithoutalotofotherworkthatcomesalongwith'em,atleastin,inmyexperience.Uh,noww-,howwouldyouknowifsomeonewalkedinthedoor,would,would,howwouldyouknow?Doyouusetheibogainesideofthetreatmentuse,orwouldyouuse5-MeO-DMT?

Dr.Martin: So,yeah,themajorityofpatientsthatcometoCrossroadsareusingopiates.

Dave: Okay.

Dr.Martin: Um,bydefinition,thepeoplethat,uh,areadmittedintothepsychospiritualprogram,theydon'thavesubstanceabusedisorders,but,yeah,weusebothmedicines.

Dave: Okay.

Dr.Martin: Um,theonethateverybodygetsisibogaine,andtheonethat'soptionis5-MeO-DMT.Wedohavepractitionersthatworkwith5-MeO-DMT,andthatcanbescheduledseparately,butthatwouldnotbeatthefacility.Andthereasonwhywehavetheclinicistohavethatmedicalcontainer...

Dave: Okay.

Dr.Martin: ...togivethissubstancesafely.

Dave: Gotit.SotheDMTwouldbesomethingwhereyouworkwithanoutsidepractitioner.Okay.Soyouwouldn't...

Dr.Martin: Youcouldworkwithanoutsidepractitioner.


18

Dave: ...stackthemontopofeachother,whichseemsinsane,butIdon'tknow.

Deanne: Mm-hmm(affirmative).

Dr.Martin: Well,they'regiven,uh,severaldaysapart.

Dave: Okay.

Dr.Martin: They'renotgivingtogether.

Deanne: Mm-hmm(affirmative).

Dave: Allright.Thatseemslikethatwould...You'dprobablypickpiecesofyourbrainofftheceiling.

Male: Mm-hmm(affirmative).

Dave: Um,whatifyouare,sayaddictedtosugar,whichthere'salottapeopleoverstatingsugar

triggersthesamedopaminereceptorsascocaine,therefore,youknow,it,it'sthatevil.Well,it,it'sactuallynotverygoodforyou,uh,butIwouldsaythere'sprobablyadifference,uh,becausewhenIputcocaineinmysmoothies,it'sadifferentresultthansugar...justsaying.(laughter)

Dr.Dan: Areyoustillusingcoffee(laughs)atthatpoint?Can,I'dliketoanswerthatjustonapersonalnoteifIcould.

Dave: Yeah.Yeah.

Dr.Dan: Andthen,andIthinkMartincana-,can,cangiveyoualittlebitmore,uh,ofthebackstory,too.Um,thatwasexactlywhathappenedformewithibogaine.

Dave: Okay.

Dr.Dan: Um,Iactually,aftermysisterdied,um,Istartedtraveling,andabout2monthslaterIdidibogaforthefirsttimei-,inCostaRica,andIdidittwice,anditwas40hoursbothtimes...

Dave: (laughs)

Dr.Dan: ...anditwasr-,atrainwreck.Itwas,like...

Dave: That'slike,that'slikegivingbirth,like,40hoursisintense.

Dr.Dan: Oh,mygosh.40hours,right?It'ssomewhere,it's,it'stheequi-,it'ssomewhereamixtureoffeelinglikeyou'regettingrolledoverbyasteamrollerandonajackhammeratthesametime...


19

Dave: (laughs)

Dr.Dan: ...for40hours.Andso,butneedless...

Dave: Aw.

Dr.Dan: ...tosay,itwas,itwasprofoundlycentering(laughs)'cause,uh,atsomepoint,youjusthavenootheroptionbuttoletgoandsurrender...

Dave: Yeah.

Dr.Dan: ...totheprocess.And,um,aboutayearlater,whenDr.PaloncoinvitedmetocomeonboardwithCrossroads,um,Isaid,"Yeah,I'dlovetoknowwhatyouguysaredoing,andinordertobeonboard,IneedtoexperienceitsothatIunderstandhowyou're,howyou'reworkingwithit.SoIwentdowntoMexico,andIdidibogaine.And,um,thenextdayaftertreatment,Iwalkedbyaplateoffruitandsome,Ithinksomemuffinsorsomethinglikethatforbreakfast,andIwalkedbyit,andIdidn'tevenflinch.AnditwasonlyuntilIgothalfwaydownthehallthatIlookedbackatthatplate,andIrealized,"Oh,mygosh,Ihadabsolutelynochargeonsugar.

Dave: Yeah.

Dr.Dan: AndIdidn'trealizeIhadachargeonsugaruntiltherewasnochargeonsugar.Andthenlookingbackatmylife,I'vehadthislifelongaddictiontosugar,anditjustcameupcloseandpersonal,andIdidn'tgoforthat.Itwasn'tintheforefrontofmymind,butIrecognizeditwasgone,absolutelygonethedayaftertreatment,anditstayedgone.Interestinglyenough,fromtime-to-time,ifI'mstressed,ifI'msleepdeprived,ifI'm,youknow,travelingalot,it'llflairupalittlebit,andI,andInoticeitbecauseI'm,I'mpresenttoitnow.ButIdidn'tnoticeitbefore,andthenit's,it'sthesamekindofthingthatyoujustmentioned,addictiveneurochemistryisaddictiveneurochemistry.

Itdoesn'tmatterwhatyou'readdictedto.Sothefascinatingthingaboutibogaineisthatit's,itisanaddictiveneurochemistryinterrupter,particularlyforthethingsthatweusethatwouldhaveadrugkindofeffect.Whetherthey'redrugsofabuse,oralcohol,orsugar,ortobacco,addictiveneurochemistryisaddictiveneurochemistry.Ibogaine'snotnecessarilygloballyeffectiveforeverythingontheaddictivespectrumequally;however,itisimpactfulforaddict-,addictions,whatevertheyare.Andsothat'sthepersonalkindof...becausec-,'causeyoua-,askedthatquestion,itwassowellstated.

Deanne: Yeah,andI'lljustquicklyadd,sinceI'mtheonethattalkstopeople,youknow,rightaftertheexperienceandweeksaftertheexperiencethatmanypeoplecomeinwantingtodetoxoffofsomethinglikeopiatesanddiscoverlateron,thattheyhavenomoredesireforcaffeine,nicotine,marijuana,sugar,sowe'reseeingalotofaddictionsbeingin-,um,interruptedwithouteventheintentiontodoso.Soit'sthatpowerful,happening...

Dave: Yeah.


20

Deanne: ...withoutintention.

Dave: Yeah.No,I'mgoingtostepinto,uh,intosomethinghere,thedifferencebetweenuseand

addiction.SoI,Iusedonemilligramofnicotinesprayeverydayortwo,andI'vebeendoingthatforalongtime.AndIcangowithoutit.Igowithit,butit'saperformanceenhancingsubstance.Doyoudrawa,adifferencebetweenuseandabuse?And,also,caffeineisaperformanceenhancingsubstance...Ikindalikeit...um,butIgooffofitwhenI'mgonnadointensemeditationbecauseitlowersalphabrainwaves,let'ssay.Bute-,wheredoyouguysdrawthelinebetweenanaddictionandause?

Dr.Dan: I,itreallycomesdowntoyourabilitytowillfullycontrolit.

Dave: Thereyougo.

Dr.Dan: Soif,ifit'ssomethingthatyou'rechoosingtodoonaregularbasis,anditworksforyou,likefood,water,exercise.

Dave: (laughs)

Dr.Dan: Right?Imeanthose,wedothoseeveryday.They,theyworkforus.

Dave: Yeah.

Dr.Dan: There'sabeneficialeffect.Itbecomesabusewhenitbecomesanegativeeffectandwe...

Dave: Okay.

Dr.Dan: ...haveahardtimewillfullycontrollingit.

Deanne: Yeah,andoneofthethingsIliketotalkaboutwithclients,too,isa-,addictionsand,um,substanceabusetendstotakeyoutowardsyourworseself;whereas,passionsand...

Dave: Oooh.

Deanne: ...healthydependencies,um,tendtotakeyoutowardsyourbestself.

Dave: That,thatisanincrediblysimplelens,and,andIreallylikethat,uh,becauseI,Idon'tknowthatthere'sanargum-...Actually,thereis,there'sevenanargumentforusingheroinforyourbestself,uh,whichisprobablyonlyhalfwayoffensivetoyouguys,uh...

Dr.Dan: (laughs)

Dave: Mywife,uh,Dr.Lana,is,orshewasadrugandalcoholaddictionemergencydoctorinStockholm,Sweden.Sosheworkedwithheroinaddicts,usuallyoneswhowereabouttodie,uh,butwentthroughalotofthe,probablysomeofthesimilarkindatrainingthatyouhad


21

havei-,inyourprepworkhere.Andtheyhadaninterestingcasewhereag-,like,themostinfluentialattorneyand,like,someonehighinthegovernmentandsomeotherpeoplehadbeenusinglow-doseheroin,pharmaceuticalgrade,for20yearsasananti-agingsubstance.Th-,theywereusingit3timesaweek,verylowdoses,muchlikeyouwoulduse,uh,low-dosenaltrexoneorsomethingto,uh,tolower...Sothesepeoplewerewalkingaroundlooking20yearsyoungerthantheyshouldhave.

TheywerebuyingtheirheroinfromtheCEOofalocalpharmaceuticalcompany,whomadeitspecialforthem,andtheygotbustedandallgotinbigtrouble,anditwasabigscandal.Idon'tknowhowlongagothiswas.But,sothere'sprobablyacaseforthose,forthoseguys,whereeventheymaybeweregoingtowardstheirbestselfeveniftheywereusingsomethingthatforthevastmajorityofpeoplewould'vebeenacompletetrainwreck,right?Soyourdefinitionofareyouusingittomovetowardsyourgreaterselforareyoudoing,uh,somethingelsethatmovesyoutowards...what'dyoucallit,yourworstself,yournotgreatself,I,Iforget...butI,Ilovethatlens'causethat,that'sliketheworstexampleIcouldthinkof,butitstillworks.

Deanne: Yeah,exactly,and,youknow,IthinkImayhavereadthatf-,fromoneofGaborMate'sbooks.Hedoesacomparisonbetweenaddictionandpassion,andIbelievethat'swhereIgotthatfromis...

Dave: That'swhereyougotthatfrom?Cool.Uh...

Deanne: Clarifiesthat,youknow,addictionclearlymovesyoutowardsyourworstself;whereas,passion...AndIjustaddedinthere,healthydependencies'causetherecertainlyarehealthydependenciesthatweneed,liefood,aregoingtomoveyoutowardsyourbestself.Sothisisameasurethatweuseinworkingwithourclientsbecausethey'llaskus,youknow,"Isthisaproblemforme,ornot?"Andthenwe'llusequestions,um,likethattohelpthemidentify,"Isthishelpingyoubemoreproductive,uh,more,uh,youknow,mentally,um,clear,uh,emotionallystable,andmoreproductiveinyourlife?Oristhiscausingyoutodroptheballinareasofyourlifeand,youknow,thingshavekindoffallenbythewayside?"

Dave: S-,soDeanne,our,ourmutualfriend,uh,JoePolish,fromtheGeniusNetwork,uh,whoi-,firstintroducedus,isdoingadocumentaryonaddiction.He'sreallyworkingto,toimprovethequalityofaddictioncare.And,uh,hejustinterviewedGaborMate,andhe,IthinkGaborwasinVancouver,soI'm,I'm,I'lllikelyhavehimonthisshowsoontotalkaboutthis,aswell,becausewhatI'vefoundinmyownpathandjustfromworkingwith,withclientsand,andjustfrombecomingawareofthewaythebrainandthemindand,andthewhateveryouwannacallit,uh,ourmeatworks,isthataddictionplaysamuchbiggerroleinsomepeople'slivesthanthey'reawareof,and,andit'salmost,bydefinition,meanttobesubliminal.

Bythetimeyourecognizeit,it'sprobablybeenthereforawhile,andit'sprobablybeencausingdamage,uh,toyourrelationshipsortoyourselforalltheotherthingsthatitdoes'causeit'ssneaky.Uh,andthenifwecangetahandleonthatviawhatevermechanism,andwecanshowpeoplewhenit'shappening,andletthemintervenesooner,l-,it'sactuallydoingagreatservice,uh,forhumanity.Um,are,arethereothertechnologies,o-,otherchemicals,


22

othertechniques,uh,t-,transpersonalpsychology...Idon'tknow...otherthingslikethat,thatyouareinterestedinbringingintowhatyoudobefore,during,orafter,uh,thiskindof,uh,thiskindatreatment?

Dr.Martin: Absolutely,Imean,there's,uh,thewholespectrumfrombrainimagingthat,uh,canprovideyougreaterinsightandknowledgeaboutwhatisactuallygoingon;um,thenneurofeedback;uh,transcranialmagneticstimulation;uh,directcurrentstimulation;obviously,flotation,whichwe'vealreadytalkedabout.Andthentheotherinterventions,whicharenottechnologicalbuthavebeenproventoworkoverprobablythousandsofyears.Uh,oneofthemwouldbeevenpermaculture.Soinancienttimeswhenwarriorswouldcomebackfrom,frombattle,andtheyweretraumatized,andtheyhadwhatwenowadayscallposttraumaticstressdisorder,theyweren'tallowedtoresettleinthevillagesrightaway,theywereforcedtoworkonthelandforayear.

And,uh,justthatreconnectionwiththesoilandwatchingthingsgrowand,uh,it'stremendouslytherapeutic,andIdon'tthinkit'sbeingutilizedenough.Imean,inthepast,uh,100years,we'vemovedawayfromphysicallaborandexercise,andwe'veevenshutdownpsychiatrichospitalsthatallofthemhadfarmsandvegetablegardenswherethe,wherethepeople,thepatientswouldworkandworkupasweatandgrowtheirownfood.AndIthinkthatthatwasanimportantcomponentof,ofthetherapies,butit,itwasn'trecognized.Theythoughtitwasslavelabor,but,infact,thatwasimmenselytherapeutic.So,um,Dr.Dancanalsospeakaboutdifferenttechnologies.Ithinkhewasrecentlyataconferencewherethey're,whentheymentioned,uh,abunchofthem.

Dave: Oh,cool.Um,do,doshare.

Dr.Dan: Yeah,manyofthemweretheonesthat,uh,Martinjustmentioned.It'severybody'snewkindofflavoronwhat,um,magneticstimulationdevicesareoutthere,likepulseelectromagneticstimulationdevicesortranscranialmagnetic,ortranscranialdirectcurrent,um,um,frequencyspecificmicrocurrent...

Dave: (laughs)

Dr.Dan: ...and,um,alphathetabrainstatetechnologies,and,actually,they,that'swhereyouandI...Orw-,that'swhereIfirstheardaboutyournameis,um,workingwithJimHartandsoI,Ihadtheopportunityat...ThatwasmyfirstexperienceintoEEGdirectedneurofeedback.Andnowwe'regettingsomereallycool,sophisticated,um,littlebriefca-,briefcase,um,devicesthatwillallowyoutoapproximatethatsameexperience.Um,youknow,certainlywould...

Dave: You,youcanleaveyourbodywithEEG,unquestionably,ifit'ssetuprightand,youknow,you'reintherightplaceforit.I,I,Iwasamazedtofindthatyoucoulddothatkindathing.

Dr.Dan: Yeah.It'samazing.And,um,photics-,photicstimulationisanotheramazingone.There'saLucianTechnology...



23

Dr.Dan: ...um,Ithinkit'salsofromSwedenthathasthisrapid-fireparticularpulserateandintensity

ofLEDlightexposureandyou're...


Dr.Dan: ...like,look,lookingattheLEDlightplateaboutafootawayfromyou...

Dave: Yeah.

Dr.Dan: ...andithasthispulserate,andthat,thatformewasthemostlikeaDMTout-of-bodyexperiencethatI'deverhad,uh,beforeIjumpedoutofaplane,andthenwaslike,"Whoa,hey,that'skindofwhatthatfeelslike."Um,yeah,sothere'samaz-...Andthecoolthing,too,aboutthesetechnologiesissimilartowhatyoudo,isyoustackthesecomplimentary...

Dave: Yeah.

Dr.Dan: ...andsynergistictoolsontopofoneanothertohaveanexponentiallybeneficialeffect,andyouputyourselfinthelaboratoryandseewhatthe,whattheeffectis,whichiscool.Andthenyoucomebackandtelleverybodyelse,andthat'sessentiallythe,thedefinitionofashaman.

Dave: It,itis.

Dr.Dan: Definitionofashaman:Goestotheedgeoftheknown,jumpsoff,hasanexperienceandcomesbackandtellseverybodyelsewhathappened.(laughs)IthinkTerenceMcKennasaidthat.

Dave: Yeah,it'strue.Hedidsaythat,and,andthere'sabitofacyberangletoitnow,like,youknow,ifyou'rea,atraditionalshamanusing,uh,plantmedicines,theycanarrestyouforthat.But,rightnow,youknow,ifyou'reusingflashinglightsonyour,onyoureyes,like,man,it'sreallyhardtowrite.Uh,(laughs)it'sespeciallyhardtowritelawsaboutthatgiventhatthelights...


Dave: ...like,theLEDlightsinyourfixturesrightnowareflashing,youjustcan'tseethem.


Dave: Like,youknow,I,Idon'tknowtheycancontrolthat,butmyexperienceisthat...Infact,oneofthereasonsthatI,Ireallyhelpedtopopulizetheideaofbiohackingisthatthesethingsareallovertheplace,butmostpeoplearen'tpayingattentiontowhattheycandotoputyouinthesealteredstates,and,andhighperformanceisanalteredstate,right?Sowhatyou'resayingthereis,youknow,we,wedefinitely,wedefinitelyhavemorecontroland,andmostofthoseareaffordable.Mostofthoseareaccessible,andmostofthoseyoucandoinyour


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garagewithoutanyone'spermission,andthenyoucantalkaboutwhatyoudidwithoutfearofbeingarrestedforit,andthatishowprogresshappensreally,reallyrapidly.AndI,I'mexpectingtosee,like,thishugewaveofdiscoverytherebe-,becausewe'retakingthisoutofthehandsofjustneurosciencelabs,andwe'reputtingthesetechnologiesoutthereinawaywherethey,theyreallyhaveneverbeenbefore.


Dave: Are,areyou...

Dr.Martin: Yeah.

Dave: ...ashopefulasIam?Or,uh,doyouthinkbadthingswillhappen?(laughs)

Dr.Martin: I'msuperhopeful.

Dave: Okay.

Dr.Dan: I'msuperhopefulbecauseweneverhadtheopportunitytosharethismuchinformation...

Dave: Yeah.

Dr.Dan: ...like,forexample,throughpodcasts,tosomanypeopleaboutcoolthingsthatarehittingpeoplewherethey'reat,indesperationandincrisis,andthey'relookingforsomethingoutsidetheboxbecausetheboxisn'tworkingverywell.Imean,wecanseethat...

Dave: Yeah.

Dr.Dan: ...inavarietyofexamples.And,um,andpeoplearethirsty,andit'sapioneeringspirittobeabletoreclaimyourownchoicewhenyouhaveoptionsand,andtobeabletoreclaimyourbestself,andI,I'mextraordinarilyoptimistic.Ithinkit's,Ithinkit'sstillgonnagetalittlewonky,um,butcrisisiswhatmovespeopletochange,cris-,otherwise,wekindagetstuckinthese,justpatterns,oryou'rejustbornas,like,aPsychonautandpioneeringspirit,andyou'realwayschasingit,likeintheRatParkstudies;eventhoughsomeoftherats...Eventhoughalltheratswerekindahangingoutwiththeirratfriendsin,inthepark,therewerestillsomeratsthatchosetoexperimentwithcokewater,right?Sothere'salwaysgonnabesomebodywhoexperiments.

Dave: (laughs)

Dr.Martin: Youjustdidn'thaveanybodyoverdosingbecauseit'slike,"Oh,ohexperiment.I'dstillratherhangoutwithmyfriends.Iwasjustcuriousaboutwhatthiscokewaterthingwasabout."

Dave: Totally,uh...

Dr.Martin: I'msuperhopeful,superhopeful.


25

Dave: Well,that,thatmakesmefeelgood'causeyouguysspendyour,yourwholelifestudyingthis

stuff,andI,Ispendalotoftime,uh,workingonitmyselfand,andsharingitwitha,asmallcommunity.ButI,Ibelievethat,thathavinga,aproperbackgroundandworkingwith,withvery,uh,peoplejuststuckindarkplacesisgoingtobemoreilluminating.Uh,you,you'lllearnmoreandmorequicklythanIdoworkingwith,uh,youknow,withhighperformers,someofwho,infact,manyofwhomareusingthesamesetsofe-,chemicalanddigitaltechnologiestoincreasetheirperformancewithoutdoingthehealingworkfirst'causetheydidn'tneedthehealingwork.Andthere'sanothersetofhighperformerswhoneededthehealingwork,didn'tknowit,starteddownthehighperformancepathandwerelike,"Oops,IguessIshouldremove...

Male: (laughs)

Dave: ...thattackinmyfootthathasalwaysbeenthere'causeIdidn'tknowitwasslowingmedown,"andtheygothroughtheactof,youknow,removingwhatevertrauma'sslowingthemdown,andsuddenlythey'reacceleratingdramatically.A-,and,andthat'sonethingI'm,I'mquiteinterestedin,andwhyI'mconsideringcomingdownthereforoneofyour,yourweekendexperiences,um,isthat,youknow,Iimaginethere'salwayssomethingIcandoalittlebitbetter,uh,orsomethingelsewhereI'mnotawareofsomenuancein,inmybehaviorsorinmyownself-talk,whateverelseitis.AndIbelieveit'soneofthebestinvestmentsanyonecanmakeistoinvestinawarenessormoreconsciousnessbecauseyouthenhavemorecontroloverthewayyoutreatyourselfandthewayyoutreattheotherpeople,and,basically,youhavemoreleveragetomaketheworldabetterplace.And,andsoI,Ithinkthere'saroleforibogainein,intheworkyou'redoingandI'm,I'mgratefulthatyouguyshavespentallthetimeandenergyputtingtogethersomethingthatisverypioneeringand,uh,I'm,Ithinkit'samazingthatyou'reontheshow,too.

Dr.Dan: Yeah.Yeah.Dr.Palonco'sbeendoingthisworkfor,like,14yearsand,um,andDeannethesamekindoftrajectoryinregardstotheintegrationwork.Andit'sallowedusthroughthattimeframe,it'sallowedbothofthemandmyselfto,tokeepconstantlybuildingthenetworkofotherproviderswhoaresharingthesamekindofmessage.SowhenyouaskedmeifI'mhopeful,oneofthereasonsI'mhopefulisbecauseIkeepseeingsomanyotherpractitionersandmedicalprovidersandpeoplefromavarietyofdifferenttr-,traditionssaythesamethingaboutthebenefitofhelpingusallwakeupasquickaswecan.Sowe'reallstartingtotalkmoreandmoreaboutthis,thesamething,andit'swhat,uh,RupertSheldrakewouldtalkabout,likethemorphicfeelisbuildingforthis,thisrisingandthisrevolution,thisRenaissanceinmedicinetohappenrightnow.I,Ithinkwe'reperfectlyprimedtoseeithappenrelativelyquickly.

Dave: Definitelyinourlifetime,uh,especiallyifyouextendyourlifebyanextra100yearsthroughsomeofthesetechniques,butthat'satopicforanotherpodcast.Iwannaaskeachofyouthequestion...Normally,Isay"Tellmeyourtop3thingsthatyouwouldoffertosomeonewhocametoyouandsaid,'Look,Iwannaperformbetterateverythinginmylife,whatIneedtoknow,'"butI'vegot3ofyou,solikethegeniewhogivesonewishtoeachpersonwhen


26

there's3people...So1answerforeachofyou,themostimportantthingyouwouldtellsomeonewhojustwantedtobebetteratbeinghuman?Martin,let'sstartwithyou.

Dr.Martin: Readingbooks,uh,that'smyteacher,andIpractice.I,Ilovetoread,um,andwhereI'velearnedthemost.

Dave: Awesome.Dan,whatdoyouthink?

Dr.Dan: I,Ialwayscomebacktothemedicines.Youknow,dothedue...Doduediligencetofindthebestpotentialexperience,dohomework,listentopodcasts,interviewpeople,researchit,and,andwait,kindoflikefindingyouridealpartner,don'tsettle,waitfortheperfect...

Dave: Yeah.

Dr.Dan: ...timetoarise,and,and,andgointothemedicinespace'causethere'sn-...Ihaven'tseenanythingforourtime,fortheWesternmind,forthewaywelive,Ihaven'tseenanythingmoreeffectiveandmoreefficientathelpingtheaveragepersonwakeupasquickastheycan.

Dave: Uh,very,verywellsaid.Uh,Deanne.

Deanne: Yeah,greatanswers.There'salottawaystoanswerthat.Somethingthat'sreallycomeintomymindforourconversationhereanddiscussinghopeforthefutureisjustrecontextualizingthewaythatweseesuffering.Imean,rightnow,whenwe'retalkingaboutaddictionandtraumaand,uh,othertypesofemotionalsuffering,wetendtoseeitasanunfortunatecircumstanceorasapathologythatweneedtotreatormitigate.AndIthinkabigthingthatweneedtodomovingintothe,uh,newera...ifyouwannacallitthat...with,um,ourhealthandwellness,istolookatsufferingasanopportunity.Um,whene-,outofthemanyyearsthatI'vebeenworkingwithaddiction,Iseesomanypeoplestilllookingatitasadiseaseandasanillnessandassomethingthatwe,again,anunfortunatecircumstance.

ButwhatIseeisthisisanopportunityfortransformationandsufferingisprobablyabigreasonthatwecamehere,sothatwecoulddivedeepdownintoourshadowsideandexperiencethatdarkeraspectofourselfsothatwecancomebackintothere-emergenceofourtrueself.SooneofthebiggestthingsIthinkwecandoislookatoursufferingandourpainandourproblemsinadifferentlight.Aslongaswekeeplookingatitassomethingthatweareinresistanceto,it'sgoingtocontinuetogrow,andwemissthepointoflearningandtransformation.

Butassoonaswestepintothislight,andweseetheopportunitytorediscoverourselves,tobetterknowourselves,to,um,identifywhatourplaceandourpurposehereonthisplanetis,somethingstartstoshift,andnolongerareweinresistancetoourownselves;nowweareinacceptanceandthattransformationjuststartstohappenautomatically,whichallowsustoengagemorefullyintheplantmedicineswithbooksthatwe'rereadingortheconversationsthatwe'rehaving.


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Dave: Uh,beautifullywellput.Uh,thankyou.Nowforourlisteners,we'regonnahaveatranscriptofeverythingwesaidwithlinksandallthatsortofstuffupon,uponbulletproofexec.com.You'llbeabletoclickanywhereonthetranscript,andit'lltakeyoutothatsectiononYouTube,soyoucansharejustlikethat30secondsnippetofconversationwhichis,whichisareallyeffectivewaytosharethisconversationorpartsthataremosteffective.We'llalsohavelinkstoeach,uh,alltherelevantwebsites,butforpeopledrivingor,betteryet,peoplesittingintheiroffice,whoaren'tdriving,uh,whoaregoingto,uh,wanttheURLsrightnow,uh,whataretheURLsfor,forCrossroads,uh,for,forBeingTruetoYouand,andtheotherthingsweshouldknowabout?

Dr.Martin: Sothe,theURLforthewebsiteiscrossroadsibogaine.com.

Dave: That'sI-B-O-G-A-I-N-Edotcom.crossroadsibogaine.com.

Dr.Martin: Right.

Dave: Okay.Gotit.

Deanne: Mm-hmm(affirmative).AndthenforBeingTruetoYou,it's,uh,justallspelledoutbeingtruetoyou.com.

Dave: Awesome.Well,Dr.Martin,Dr.Dan,andDeanne,thankyouforbeingonBulletproofRadio.ThisisareallyprofoundandIthinkimpactfulepisode.Ireally,reallyamgratefulfortheworkyou'redoing,andI,Inowhow,howmucheffortgoesintotakingsomeonewho'sstuckinaddictionandhelpingthemcomeout,soI,Iknowthatyouputalotofyourownsoulintothatkindawork.Sokeepdoingwhatyou'redoing.Itmakestheworldabetterplace,and,hopefully,thisepisodealsodidthesamething.Haveanawesomeday.

Dr.Dan: Thanks,Dave.

Deanne: Yeah,thankyousomuch,Dave.

Dr.Martin: Thankyou,Dave.

Dave: Bye.

Dr.Martin: Bye.

Dave: Ifyoulikedtoday'sepisode,youknowwhattodo.Gooutthereanddosomethingnice,andoneofthethingsyoucoulddoforyourselfisyoucouldheadonovertotheCrossroadswebsiteifthat'ssomethingthatappealstoyouandcheckitout.Maybeyou'lldoit.Maybeyouwon't.Uh,butIdidn'tmentionthisatthebeginning,Ihavenodealwiththeseguys.I'veneverbeendownthere.Uh,itjustseemslikeaveryinterestinggroupofpeopleandinterestingstuff.Uh,sothere,thisisn't,like,areferral,affiliatething.It'sjustknowledge,andifitwasanaffiliatedthing,Iwould'vetoldyouaheadoftime.


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Theotherthingyoucoulddois,rememberthatBulletproofCacaoTeaItalkedabout?Thinkaboutpickingsomeofthatstuffup.It'sgottheobromineinit,whichisacorepartofwhat'sinchocolate,andit'sdelicious,andyoufeelgreatwhenyou'redonedrinkingit.SoI'm,I'mabigfanofthat,especiallyduringwinterwhenIdon'treallywant,like,thehotchocolatewehave.Ijustwantthechocolateflavor,likeahintofthat.I'm,I'mreallyfeelinghappywiththatstufflately.It's,it'sbeenkindamakingmefeelgoodandwhatever,sohaveanawesomeday.

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