DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WOMEN

HEARINGSBEFORE THE

SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATIONOF THE

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABORHOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

NINETY-FIRST CONGRESSSECOND SESSION

ON

Section 805 of H.R. 16098TO PROHIBIT DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WOMEN IN FED-ERALLY ASSISTED PROGRAMS AND IN EMPLOYMENT IN EDU-CATION; TO EXTEND THE EQUAL PAY ACT SO AS TOPROHIBIT DISCRIMINATION IN ADMINISTRATIVE, PROFES-SIONAL AND EXECUTIVE EMPLOYMENT; AND TO EXTENDTHE JURISDICTION OF THE U.S. COMMISSION ON CIVIL

RIGHTS TO INCLUDE SEX

Part 2HEARINGS HELD IN WASHINGTON, D.C., JULY 1 AND 81, 1070

Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and LaborCAuL D. PRKxINs, Ohairman

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICEW0147 0 WASHINGTON s 1971

 

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABORCARL D. PERKINS, Kentucky, Chairman

EDITH GREEN, OregonFRANK THOMPSON, Ji., New JerseyJOHN H. DENT, PennsylvaniaROMAN C. PUCINSKI, IllinoisDOMINICK V. DANIELS, New JerseyJOHN BRADEMAS, IndianaJAMES G. O'HARA, MichiganHUGH L. CAREY, New YorkAUGUSTUS F. HAWKINS, CaliforniaWILLIAM D. FORD, MichiganWILLIAM D. HATHAWAY, MainePATSY T. MINK, HawaiiJAMES H. SCHEUER, New YorkLLOYD MEEDS, WashingtonPHILLIP BURTON, CaliforniaJOSEPH M. GAYDOS, PennsylvaniaLOUIS STOKES, OhioWILLIAM "BILL" CLAY, MissouriADAM C. POWELL, New York

WILLIAM H. AYRES, OhioALBERT H. QUIE, MinnesotaJOHN M. AStIBROOK, OhioALPIIONZO BELL, CaliforniaOGDEN R. REID, New YorkJOHN N. ERLENBORN, IllinoisWILLIAM J, SCHERLE, IowaJOHN DELLENBACK, OregonMARVIN L. ESCH, MichiganEDWIN D. ESHLEMAN, PennsylvaniaWILLIAM A. STEIGER, WisconsinJAMES M. COLLINS, TexasEARL F. LANDGREBE, IndianaORVAL HANSEN, IdahoEARL B. RUTH, North Carolina

SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATIOxEDITH GREEN, Oregon, Chairman

JOHN BRADEMAS, IndianaHUGH L. CAREY, New YorkWILLIAM D. HATHAWAY, MainePHILLIP BURTON, CaliforniaFRANK THOMPSON, Jn., New JerseyJAMINS H. SCHEUER, New YorkLOUI S STOKES, OhioWILLIAM "BILL" CLAY, Missouri

ALBERT H. QUIE, MinnesotaOGDEN R. REID, New YorkJOHN N. ERLENBORN, IllinoisMARVIN L. ESCH, MichiganJOHN DELLENBACK, OregonWILLIAM J. SCHHRLE, IowaWILLIAM A. STEIGER, Wisconsin

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CONTENTS

(Subject Index of Testimony and Materials on page 1257)Hearings held in Washington, D.C.: Page

July 1, 1970 -------------------------------------------------- 617July 31, 1970 ------------------------------------------------- 677

Statement of-Brown, William H., III, Chairman, Equal Employment Opportunity

Commission ----------------------------------------------- 622Chisholm, Hon. Shirley, a Representative in Congress from the State

of New York ----------------------------------------------- 617Freeman, Hon. Frankie M., Commissioner, U.S. Commission on Civil

Rights, also Howard H. Glickstein, Judith Lichtman, and JohnH.Powell, Jr ----------------------------------------------- 661

Kator, Irving, Assistant Executive Director, Civil Service Commission,accompanied by Helene S. Markoff, Director, Federal women's pro-gram, Civil Service Commission ------------------------------- 704

Koontz, Mrs. Elizabeth Duncan, Director, Women's Bureau; accom-panied by Carol Cox, Solicitor's office; and Mrs. Pearl Spindler,Women's Bureau ------------------------------------------- 691

Leonard, Jerris, Assistant Attorney General Civil Rights Division,Justice Department, accompanied by David Marblestone and MaryGrove ----------------------------------------------------- 677

Muirhead Peter, Deputy Assistant Secretary, Associate Commissionerfor Higher Education, Office of Education, HEW, accompanied byOwen Kiely, Director, Contract Compliance Division, Office forCivil Rights, HEW; and Preston M. Royster, Equal EmploymentOpportunities Officer, HEW ---------------------------------- 642

Prepared statements, letters supplemental material, etc.:Astin, Helen S., "The Woman Doctorate in America," an article en-

titled ------------------------------------------ ---------- 968Bayer, Alan E., and Helen S. Astin, "Sex Differences in Academic

Rank and Salary Among Science Doctorates In Teaching," anarticle entitled --------------------------------------------- 1031

Bem, Sandra L and Daryl J. Bern, Department of Psychology, Car-negie-MellonkUniversity:"Sex-Segregated Want Ads: Do They Discourage Female Job

Applicants," article entitled ------------------------------- 891"Training the Woman To Know Her Place: The Power of a

Nonconscious Ideology," article entitled ------------------- 1042Boyer, Gene, Beaver Dam Wis.:

"Are Women Equal Under the Law?" paper entitled ------------ 1086Statement in support of section 805 of H.R. 16098 ..------------- 1083

Brown, William H., III, Chairman, Equal Employment OpportunityCommission:

"Guidelines on Discrimination Because of Sex," an articleentitled ------------------------------------------------ 638

Statement before the House General Subcommittee on Labor,December 1, 1969 --------------------------------------- 628

Statement before the Senate Subcommittee on Iabor, August 11,1969 -------------------------------------------------- 631

Statistics on race, sex discrimination ------------------------ 635Chisholm, Hon. Shirley, a Representative In Congress from the State

of New York, "The 51 Percent Minority," address entitled ------- 907Clarenbach, Kathryn F., "Can Continuing Education Adapt?", an

article entitled ----------------------------------------------- 917

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Prepared statements, letters, supplemental material, etc. -ContinuedCommittee on University Women, "Women in the University of Page

Chicago," a report ......................------------------ 753Cox, Carol, Solicitors Office, "College and University Investigations,"

an article entitled- 703Dinerman, Beatrice, "Sex Discrimination in the Legal Profession,"

article entitled --------------------------------------------- 1128Faust, Jean New York, N.Y., letter to Chairman Green, dated

July 13, 1670 ---------------------------------------------- 1082Fisher, Elizabeth, "The Second Sex, Junior Division," an article

entitled --------------------------------------------------- 931Freeman, TTon. Frankie M., Commissioner, U.S. Commission on Civil

Rights, satement of ---------------------------------------- 672Freeman, Jo, graduate student in political science, "Women on the

Social Science Faculties Since 1892," an article entitled ----------- 994Gardner, Gerald H. F.:

"The Status of Women in the Field of Computing," an articleentitled ----------------------------------------------- 888

"Want Ads Tomorrow: Neutral With Respect to Sex," articleentitled ----------------------------------------------- 894

Gereau, Mary Condon, chairman, Professional Women's Caucus,statement of ----------------------------------------------- 1060

Griffiths, Hon. Martha W., a Representative in Congress from theState of Michigan:

Letter to Chairman Perkins, dated June 8, 1970, enclosing ananalysis concerning the Esch amendment ------------------ 746

Statement of ..------------------------------------------ 737Harris, T. George, "Don't Call Me Lady," editorial in Psychology

Today magazine, December 1969 ----------------------------- 1029Hawkins, Ruth R., social science editor, Educational Development

Corp., Palo Alto, "The Odds Against Women," an article entitled 974Heckler, Hon. Margaret M., a Representative In Congress from the

State of Massachusetts, statement of ------------------------- 749Hernandez, Aileen C., president, NOW, letter to Secretary of Labor,

James D. Hodgson, dated June 25, 1670 ----------------------- 945Higgins, Virginia, et al., Salary Study at Kansas State Teachers

College, Chapter of American Association of University Professors,Report 1 of Committee on the Status of Women ---------------- 1226

Hoffman, Herbert E., chief, Legislative and Legal Section, Office ofthe Deputy Attorney General, letter to Chairman Green, datedAugust 19, 1970, enclosing copy of a bill ---------------------- 690

Holm Col. Jeanne M., director, Women in the Air Force, "Womenand Future Manpower Needs," article entitled ------------------ 989

Horner, Matina "Fail: Bright Women," article entitled ------------ 896Kadish, Sanford H., for the Academic Senate University of Cali-

fornia, Berkeley Division, report of the committee on SenatePolicy ----------------------------------------------------- 1143

Kator, Irving, assistant executive director, Civil Service Commission:Facts About Women's Absenteeism and Labor Turnover," abooklet entitled ---------------------------------------- 705

Letter to Chairman Green, dated August 7, 1970 -------------- 734Letter to Chairman Green, dated October 12, 1970 ------------ 735Oganovic, Nicholas J., executive director, Civil Service Com-

mission, form letter, dated January 15, 1969 ---------------- 732Statement of --------------------------------------------- 727

Kiely, Owen P., diroeor, Contract Compliance Division, HEW writteninstructions to compliance officers ----------------------------- 647

Leonard, assistant attorney general, Civil Rights Division, JusticeDepartment EEOC referrals to the Department of Justice -------- 680

Loeb, Jane, Ph. D, chairman, Urbanna AAUP Committee on theStatus oi Women, and professor of educational psychology Uni-versity of Illinois, Urbanna, report of the University of Ilinois,Urbanna.Champaign, Ill." ----------------------------------- 1225

 

Prepared statements, letters, supplemental material, etc. -Continued PageMadar, Olga, vice president, United Automobile Workers of America:

Statement before Senate Committee on Constitutional Amend-ments May 7, 1970 ------------------------------------- 1093

UAW Women's resolution adopted by UAW 22d ConstitutionalConvention April 22, 1970 ------------------------------- 1105

Muirhead, Peter i. Associate Commissioner for Higher Education:Full-time HEW employees (table) -------------------------- 652Statement of --------------------------------------------- 657

Myrdal, Gunnar, "An American Dilemma," article entitled -------- 901National Association of Women Lawyers, report submitted by ------ 1120National Organization for Women:

"Background on Federal Action Toward Equal EmploymentOpportunity for Women," article entitled ------------------ 934

"NoW President Charges Government Improperly ExcludesEqual Opportunity for Women From Federal CompliancePrograms; Files Complaint Asking for Labor Secretary ToInvestigate Federal Contractors Among 1,300 Corporations,"news release, June 25 1970 ------------------------------ 942

Parrish, John B., professor, business economics, University of Illinois,"Women in Top Level Teaching and Research," an article entitled. 1017

Pressman, Sonia senior attorney, Office of te General Counsel,EEOC, "Job Equality for Women," a speech entitled ------------ 1037

"Profile of the Women Worker," an article entitled --------------- 1042Rawait, Miss Magarite, attorney, statement of ------------------ 1133Reuther, Walter P., president, United Automobile Workers, admin-

istrative letter, dated November 6, 1969 ---------------------- 1095Rossi, Alice S., associate professor of sociology, Goucher College:.

'"Dlsrimination and Demography Restrict Opportunities forAcademic Women," an article entitled -------------------- 923

"Job Discrimination and What Women Can Do About It," anarticle entitled ----------------------------------------- 927

"Statement and Resolutions of the Women's Caucus," reprintfrom the American Sociologist, February 1970 -------------- 1254

"Status of Women in Graduate Departments of Sociology,1968-69," reprint from the American Sociologist, February1970 -------------------------------------------------- 1242

"Women In the Seventies: Problems and Possibilities," an articleentitled ----------------------------------------------- 1062

Sandler, Dr. Bernice, Women's Equity Action League:"Sex Discrimination at the University of Maryland," an article

entitled ----------------------------------------------- 1024"Why Women Work," an article entitled -------------------- 916

Schleman, Helen B., dean of women emerita, Purdue University,Lafayette, Ind., letter to Chairman Green, dated July 13, 1970,enclosing statement ---------------------------------------- 1091

Schlossberg, Stephen, general counsel, International Union, UAW,statement of ----- * ......................---- 1097

Shaffer, Harry G., and Juliet P., associate professor of economics, andassociate professor of psychology, respectively, "Job DiscriminationAgainst Faculty Wives 'an article entitled -------------------- 1022

Simpson, Lawrence A., "I Myth Is Better Than a Miss: Men Get theEdge in Academic Employment," article entitled ---------------- 920

Stafford, Samuel:"A High Percentage of Men Feel That Women Don't Belong

Here," article entitled ----------------------... ---------- 1056"Women on the March Again-Are They Being Discriminated

Against in White-Collar Jobs?" article entitled --------------- 1049Steinem, Gloria, "Women Freeing the Men, Too," article in the Wash-

ington Post ----------------------------------------------- 1057Tobias, Sheila, assistant to the vice president for adademic affairs,

Cornell University, letter to Chairman Green, dated July 12, 1970,enclosing paper entitled "The Status of Women at Cornell" .....--- - 1077 F

 

Prepared statements, letters, supplemental material, etc. -ContinuedWaldman Elizabeth, "Marital and Family Characteristics of the U.S. Page

Labor Force," article in Monthly Labor Review, May 1970 --------- 977Weisstein, Naomi, "Woman as Nigger," reprint from Psychology

Today magazine, October 1969------------------------------885Wittrock, Dr. Verna D., associate professor of English, Eastern Illinois

University, statement of ------------------------------------- 1222Women's Equity Action League (WEAL), "Discrimination Against

Women Teachers at Eastern, Illinois University," article entitled..- 1223

[K

 

DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WOMEN

WEDNESDAY, JULY 1, 1970

HOUSE oP REPRESENTATIVES,SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION

OF THE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,Washington, D.C.

The subcommittee met at 10:30 a.m. pursuant to notice, in room2251, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Edith Green (chair-man of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Green, Quie, and Scherle.Staff members present: Harry Hogan, counsel; and Robert An-

dringa, minority professional staff assistant.Mrs. GR E. The subcommittee will come to order for further con-

sideration of legislation under our jurisdiction. Today "We are turn-ing our attention specifically to section 805 of H.R. 16098.

Our first witness is our very good friend and colleague from NewYork, Congresswoman Shirley Chisholm.

STATEMENT OF HON. SHIRLEY CHISOLM, A REPRESENTATIVE INCONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK

Mrs. CHISHOLM. Thank you Madam Chairman.Mrs. GREN. On behalf of the committee, may I tell you how much

we appreciate your coming this morning to give us the benefit ofyour views?

Mrs. CHISHOLM. Thank you very much.Most men and not a few women, do not understand the campaign

for equal rights for women. They may know that women are a ma-jority of the population-51 percent-and that they are supposed tocontrol a majority of the Nation's wealth.

How then could it be that women are discriminated against? Atfirst glance, the idea ma seem silly.

The Department of Tabor found that in 1966, white men had anaverage income of $7,179. Black men had made $4,508 and whitewomen $4,142. Black women who are almost universally confined tomenial services jobs, averaged only $2,934.

My main point in quoting these figures is to show you in dollarsand cents, that white women are more discriminated against thanblack men in the labor market.

This has some very serious and costly consequences for our society,to which I will return in a moment.

In my own experience, I have suffered from two handicaps-beingborn black and being born female. I remember vividly one incidentat Brooklyn College. One of my favorite professors, a blind political

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scientist named Louis Warsoff, was impressed by the way I handledmyself in a debate.

He told me, "Shirley, you ought to go into politics." I told him,"Proffy (that was a pet name we had for him) you forget two things.I am a woman and I am black."

During my entire political life, my sex has been a far greater handi-cap than my skin pigmentation. From my earliest experience in wardpolitical activity my chief obstacle was that I had to break throughthe role men assign women.

A young woman, in a newspaper story I read somewhere, definedthat role beautifully. She was talking about her experiences in the civilrights movement: "We found that the men made the policy and thewomen made the peanut butter sandwiches."

Every man in Congress is here because of the efforts of the womenwho form the backbone, the effective troops, of a political organization.

Without its thousands of women volunteers, the American partysystem would not work. It would break down in a confusion of un-answered letters, unmade phone calls, unkept appointments, unwrittenspeeches and unheld meetings.

Men are not aware of the incredible extent to which they rely onwomen or, to be more precise in my choice of words, the extent towhich they exploit women-to handle the details while the men takethe credit.

This brings me to one of the main points I want to make. Theprejudice against women has gone unnoticed by most persons pre-cisely because it is so pervasive and thorough-going that it seems to usto be normal.

For most of our history the very closely analagous prejudice againstblacks was invisible to most white Americans because it was so nor-mal to them.

It was a deeply ingrained, basic part of their personalities. Discov-ering that fact has been a great shock for many whites. Many othershave not yet come that far, unfortunately. When they have, if theyever do, the race problem will vanish.

But if we ever succeed, as we must succeed if we are to survive, inrooting out the racism that is such a prominent part of our Americanheritage, we will still be very far from being a just society if we arenot also ready to accord full human dignity to women.

After all, half of the blacks and every other minority group in thiscountry are women. When we talk about women's rights we are talk-ing about the rights of the majority of the population.

Sex cuts across all geographical, religious, class and racial lines.Every sector of the American population has a stake in eliminatinganti-feminist discrimination.

To quote a brilliant black woman lawyer, Dr. Pauli Murray, "Dis-crimination because of one's sex is just as degrading, dehumanizing,immoral, unjust, indefensible, infuriating and capable of producingsocietal turmoil as discrimination because of one's race.

In both cases, please note this, exclusion implies inferiority.The stereotypes are closely parallel. The happy little homemaker,

the dumb blonde, the bubble-brained secretary, are the same kind ofdistorted pictures, drawn by prejudice, as those of the contented old

 

619darky and black mammy and little pickaninnies down on the oldplantation.

Blacks and women have both been taught from childhood, becauseour society is run by and for white males, that they are inherently in-ferior. To keep them in their place, the same, the very same, character-istics are imputed to women as to blacks-that they are more childish,emotional, and irresponsible than men, that they are of lower intel-ligence, that they need protection, that they are happiest in routine,undemanding jobs, that they lack ambition and executive ability.

The parallels are striking and almost frightening, aren't they?Stereotypes are no more credible where they are applied to women

than they are when they are applied to blacks.As far as the argument that the woman's place is in the home goes I

would like to borrow a campaign slogan from Mrs. Bella Abzug,Democratic nominee for the 19th Congressional District of the Stateof New York, and I believe this:

Woman's place is In the House and the Senate and the AFL-CIO ExecutiveBoard and the Gridiron Club.

The important thing that must be understood is that women arefirst and foremost peop e.

A woman who aspires to be chairman of the board or a Member ofthe House does so for exactly the same reasons as any man. Basicallyshe feels and knows that she possesses the talents, the attributes andthe requisite skills for the job. That and that alone should be the cri-terion in the business world, the professional world and the politicalworld.

The most articulate and active members of the women's rights move-ment have of course been professional women, and many of the specificamendments being dealt with today deal specifically with the prob-lems of professional women.

These amendments proposed to section 702, title VII of the CivilRights Act and section 1 (a) of the Fair Labor Standards Act arenecessary and important changes, but I would like to devote some ofmy time today to the problems of the working class and poor women ofthis country

Our society's attitudes toward women are closely bound up with oneof its major problems, that of social welfare. The staggering costs ofsocial services are straining the national budget and- threatening tobankrupt most of our cities.

One of the commonest characteristics of welfare families is thatthey are headed by women. In many cases the problem began withi man who rejected or evaded the role we assign him, of protector andbreadwinner-but that is another question which I cannot deal withtoday.

The result, obviously, is that some women are forced to assume thebreadwinner's role in addition to that of mother and homemaker.

Three million eight hundred and sixty thousand white familiesare headed by women and 30 percent are poor, earning less than$3,000 a year, and one quarter of all black families are headed bywomen and 62 percent of them are poor.

In toto, women head 1,920,000 impoverished families. Let me recallthe income figures I quoted earlier: white women averaged $4,142in 1966 and black women $2,934. No one can support a family today

 

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on such pitiful incomes. One cannot really be blamed for giving upeven trying to do so.

But although the problem is most grave when it concerns womenwho are heads of households, it is not confined to them. Other womenwho work do not do so because of the personal fulfillment but becausethey contribute substantially to the family's support.

In one-third of the U.S. families where both parents work, thehusband's income is less than $5 000.

It is almost universally true tKat women are paid less than menfor doing the sam. work. In college teaching as this subcommitteeheard on Monday from Virginia R. Allan, women are paid mediansalaries $400 to $2,000 less than men of the same academic rank.

Women, like blacks, Puerto Ricans, and other groups that arethe targets of discrimination are clustered in the low level, deadend jobs and are rarely in te more responsible ones.

Although 38 percent of the women in the United States work,only 2 percent of them make more than $10,000 a year.

Women are also discriminated against in manpower training p ro-grams. First, because they are frequently channeled into trainingprograms for low entry level jobs with no opportunities for advance.inent and second, because the quota for women enrollees is muchsmaller than for men.

In 1968 only 31.7 percent of the on-the-job training enrollees werewomen, the job opportunities in the business sector program hadonly 24 percent female enrollees and the new defunct Job Corps had29 percent female enrollees.

If we are sincerely interested in solving our welfare problems andhelping our poor and working class families, we must recognizethe correlation between their problems and the battle to provide equalopportunities for women.

For these women, their income is not a supplement; it is essentialfor the survival and well-being of the family unit.

They must have more and better job training opportunities andequal pay and a fair opportunity for advancement.

Finally they must also have adequate day care facilities. Rightnow we have 5 million preschool children whose mothers have towork, but day care facilities are available to only 2 percent of ourwomen.

Without adequate day care, we have seriously handicapped womenand in some cases doomed them to failure in the job market.

Turning now to the legislation before this subcommittee section 805of I-I.R. 16098, I would like to conclude my remarks with this observa-tion: The amendments proposed are all just, necessary and longoverdue.

Sex is not, any more than religion or race, a valid basis for discrimina-tion. Women are individuals, just like men, or blacks or PolishAmericans.

To consider them as a homogeneous group is manifestly unjust.It is prejudging each individual in the group, each woman, which asyou know is the origin of the word prejudice.

These changes in the laws will do much to make it possible for awoman to strive, if she chooses, and to succeed or fail on her meritsf 'and her efforts, like every other human being.

 

/ 621My only reservation is that the proposed amendments may not go

far enough toward putting teeth in the law.Our experience with State and Federal civil rights agencies hasgenerally been that, unless they have enforcement powers, they are

ignored and impotent.The disgraceful record of the Defense Department on contract com-pliance with the equal opportunity laws is, I believe, sufficient evidence

of this.It seems to me that the subcommittee should consider adding en-forcement powers to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commis-

sion or if this is not practical in this bill as a legislative possibility,that the proposal be embodied in another bill and introduced by ap-propriate members through some other route.

I thank you.Mrs. GRFN. Thank you very much, Mrs. Chisholm. I think you

have outlined very accurately the very systematic discrimination ihatdoes occur from very early years in a girl's life, and discrimination towhich this Congress gives its approval, in terms of the manpowertraining program, the Job Corps, the apprenticeship program, andso forth.

One figure that has come to our attention in these hearings is thatin the apprenticeship training program, out of 278,000 registered ap-prentices in the program, less than 1 percent were girls. is despitethe fact that the highest unemployment figure in the Nation is amongnonwhite girls, who desperately need the training and the resultingopportunities.

On the last page of your prepared statement Mrs. Chisholm youstate we should put more teeth in the enforcement of rights provisions.My information is that the Justice Department does have the enforce-ment powers, but that the Justice Department has never instituteda single case based on sex discrimination, not a single case, when therehave literally been thousands of complaints made to the Equal Op-portunities Committee.

It seems to me that history is going to record this, as the bi gestcop-out of the century. They assert themselves in other cases of dis-crimination but not in sex discrimination cases. It seems to me sincethey are required by the law to enforce equally, when they choose toignore the enforcement of the law based on sex discrimination, theythemselves can be accurately accused of discrimination. Congressstated no preference in title VII of one kind of discrimination overthe others.

Mrs. CmIsHoLM. This is why I feel, Madam Chairman, that the wholequestion has to be not only in terms of enacting future legislation thatwill help to eradicate this whole problem of sex discrimination becausewe have so much legislation on the books for just about every kind ofproblem in our Nation.

It is a problem of putting into future legislation that will be pro-posed in this area. I don't have the time now but I am very much in-terested in this whole problem of sex discrimination, and as we gothrough the legislation on the local, State and Federal level, one canreally say there are laws on the books if implemented and carried outand enforced and if they were, it won't be necessary to have this hear-ing today.

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That is why I am concerned about additional legislation in this area,unless concomitantly we really do build into that legislation somekind of real enforcement or some kind of followthrough, where initia-tion is allowed on the part of the agency so that they can go after thedepartments that say one thing and 'actually, when their recordsare brought before the public, it indicates a different sto

Mrs. GiFEEN. You and I know that, until this year there was onegallery in the House of Representatives reserved for "men only."

I had the interesting experience of going into it unknowingly in myfirst year here with some of my constituents and a man was sent up bySpeaker Sam Rayburn asking me to get out.

As you know, we have no women pages, or women doorkeepers,though we do have women elevator operators now. It is also an inter-esting observation with respect to the Supreme Court, which decidesmany cases on discrimination, that we had testimony from women lawstudents yesterday on the number of women law clerks in the historyof the U.S. Supreme Court. To the best of my knowledge, there areno women or girl pages, and there never have been, in the SupremeCourt of the I united States which hands down opinions on discritmina.tion from time to tim-and tells others how they are to end it.

Mrs. CmSniOm. I just want to make one concluding comment. To-day, our country really needs the creativity, the ability and the intel-ligence of all of its citizens in order to be able to get so many thingsstraightened out, and it seems to me that the utilization of the talentsof the people in this country should not really be based on sex, becauseif we look at the history of the roles that women have played in thisNation, there is no question in the minds of those of us who can be ob-jective and not be biased about them that women have been drivingforces in many things that has made this Nation the great Nation it is.

For the life of me, I can't understand how we can continue to be souptight about whether a person wears a dress or a pair of pants, as towhether that person can use their God given talents to make whateverconstructive contributions they can make to this country.

This country needs the utilization of its best talents, whether theyare found in men and/or women.

Mrs. GRmHN. Thank you, very much, Mrs. Chisholm for a mostinteresting and provative statement. There are many other questions,but I will call on Congressman Scherle.

Mr. SCITERLE. No questions, Madam Chairman.Mrs. GnpEzN. Thank you very much for coming.Our next witness is Mr. William H. Brown III, the chairman of

the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.STATEMENT OF WILLIAM H. BROWN III, CHAIRMAN, EQUAL

EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY COMMISSIONMrs. GREEN. Again on behalf of the committee, may I express my

thanks for your being here this morning.Mr. BRowNi. Than you very much, Madam Chairman.Mrs. GF . Would you proceed with your statement, please?Mr. BRowN. Madam Chairman and members of the subcommittee,

I am of course pleased to appear before you today to comment on see-