Grace Rosario Perkins

Nia: How long have you been here and then what brought you here?

Grace: Well, I grew up in New Mexico and before New Mexico—or before Arizona, I was in New Mexico and then I was in Arizona. And, I was in community college and I basically was like "Oh, I really need to go to a women's college." And so...

Nia: I'm curious what led you to that decision?

Grace: I think for me, it was actually just kind of—I had an experience. I was going to school in Tucson where I was stalked by someone. And just my experience with kind of cis men at the time was one that felt really aggressive and hostile. And so, I decided to just go deep and go to a women's college. And so I wrote Mills and the process was super fast. I feel like I wrote them just being, "Hey, I'd like to transfer." And I was accepted within two months and moved from the reservation at that point to Mills. 

Nia: So that was how long ago?

Grace: I've been in Oakland... I'm entering my ninth year. So it's been a hot minute. 

Nia: So were you at Mills before I was there then? Because I've only been here seven years. 

Grace: I got here in 2000—the beginning of 2007, the middle of 2007.

Nia: Yeah. I got there in 2008. 

Grace: Okay. 

Nia: But I don't think we ever crossed paths. 

Grace: No. Yeah, my Mills experience it's so funny because I meet people who are like, "You were at Mills?" I was in the video department. So I got there and I was actually an Art History major. I don't know why. I pretty much lost my mind, obviously. Art history is really white and really, I don't know, I just felt everything I was learning about was very one sided and very challenging for me to be engaged in.

Even kind of...people who are drawn to studying Art History in particular are...they have all very different reasons about learning about it. But a lot of people in my experience want to kind of work within museum or gallery culture in this specific way. And so, it just felt alienating. And then I joined the Intermedia department and that was funny too. I worked with Samara Halperin, she's a queer filmmaker, she's cool. I really appreciated working with her.

But then, I also took classes, because it was Intermedia, I took classes in the music department. So then, I would go and have the complete opposite experience where I'd go from being in this really nurturing video environment with women; then going to a music class where I was the only female. And it was all graduate male students. It was just a really interesting experience. I feel I left Mills like "Wow, what was that?"

Being in those music classes, it was really frustrating. Because I feel at the time--I started volunteering at Creative Growth Gallery when I was there. Then I got an internship there, that's how I started doing work with adults with disabilities, was during that time. And when I was doing stuff in the music department, I felt so frustrated because I felt everything was so inaccessible to people who weren't, kind of who just weren't already involved in that culture, in that language. And so, I spent a lot of time in that department, more or less kind of rebelling.

There was one experience where we had to play a John Cage piece and I just basically said no. (laughs) And I still got an A...So (laughs). Yeah, that's why I... I basically told the professors, "The people I teach and the people I work with won't understand this. And it's not made for them to understand. So I don't think I need to participate." What was cool was that he respected that I said that. But, I just felt I had to kind of always have a little push back in that department. Yeah. I think it's important—Mills, I appreciate their legacy and there is a lot of stuff that's really valuable. But there's also still problems. (laughing)

Nia: (laughs) Oh yeah, definitely.

Grace: (laughing) So-

Nia: Could you say a little bit more about what you found alienating within the music department? You said something about if you're not already a part of that culture and that language. And I'm curious…what that culture and what that language is.

Grace: I just feel like when I was in one class, it was, I can't remember the title, it was History of...I don't know, 20th Century Music, something like that. But it was just so...it was just a white male canon, which a lot of things are. But it was literally—I don't even remember once learning about a person of color who was an important composer or an important thinker or a conceptual artist. It was really white.

And there were a few people who kind of made it through, where they maybe broke a few norms, but it was pretty standard. And I feel also just... And I feel like it's created in a way where it's very academic, that music. And so, there's this certain system to the chaos that you're listening to. And I feel that's the thing...it's just with any kind of craft, music, or art where people kind of have this attitude; if you don't get it, you don't get it. And I really felt that in that department.

Nia: Hmm.

Grace: Especially because I wasn't a musician. 

Nia: So they were just straight up not interested in being accessible at all?

Grace: Oh yeah. I took one class there where...it's so funny...I'll just put it on blast. No, I-(laughs)

Nia: Go for it.

Grace: I took one class there that was circuit-bending and I remember the first day-

Nia: I don't know what that means.

Grace: Yeah, it's... So, we were learning how to build synthesizers-

Nia: Okay.

Grace: And build contact microphones. And it was all these really interesting things that I think are amazing concepts for an artist. But the first day I was one of two women in the class and-

Nia: And then the other one dropped out?

Grace: (laughs) No, we became friends. And we're still friends. She had dinner with me last week! But it was, we were; I looked at her and I was like "Oh my God." Because the first day, the male professor stands up and he puts this big schematic and all these symbols and numbers and I’m supposed to understand it but I've never taken physics. So...I don't understand. So I had to have it broken down for me. And in a way, it almost felt... there was just an attitude, it was a certain posturing and I think it had a lot to do with being a man; pulling up their belt like, “I know how to do this kind of thing.” So, it was really, it was just really challenging.

And I feel also, just being in that environment and moving from the reservation and having very specific things I was working through, it was interesting to see how my work was even received in that environment. A lot of times, I was compared to just whatever female artist they knew (both laugh). Or my critiques, it would be like "Wow, that's kind of sad, but it's nice." (laughs) It was—they didn't know how to receive it. Yeah, I was compared to, I can't remember. Someone said my art was like Tracey Emin and I was like, "No, it's not." But I would get these really weird comparisons because it was all those people could really sort out. And so, it was just yeah, it was alienating. (laughs)

Nia: But—I’m gonna to talk about myself for a minute. (both laughing)

Grace: No, no, yeah, please. 

Nia: It just reminded me of—I took this film class where there was an older white lesbian in the class and an older straight white male instructor. And literally every week, he'd come in and ask her if she had seen The Kids Are All Right and then tell her that she should see it. (laughs) 

Grace: Oh my God, yeah. 

Nia: (laughing) ...You've seen this one film that has lesbians in it and that's just your reference point for everything. 

Grace: Oh my God, that's hilarious. The Kids Are All Right too?! Oh my God. (Nia laughing) 

Nia: (laughing) It was really sad and kind of upsetting. (Grace laughs.) But you made it through. You graduated? 

Grace: I did, I did. I made it! (both laugh) It's funny, I had... after a lot of people were... "How did you like Mills?" I was like, "It was all right." And now, I'm like... you know, I think I left and I think in a way what was good about it was that it was so alienating, in this way that I actually got hungry and I did a lot of stuff while I was there. And it was kind of funny, because after I graduated I was asked if Intermedia department could put me on their page. And I was like, "Yeah maybe." But I thought about it and... everything I did, I did on my own—

Nia: I did despite all of you!

Grace: Yeah! Yeah! (Nia laughs) I was like wow. I'm not being nurtured here. I'm gonna volunteer here, get an internship here and do this and start meeting these people and so… it was funny. 

Nia: So it was...being in those really oppressive environments that actually inspired you-

Grace: Yeah!

Nia: --to do well. 

Grace: Yeah... that's kind of what it was like too growing up on the reservation. At times, it's... you don't have anything to do, so it's...I'm gonna read a book, I'm gonna play guitar, I'm gonna do these things, so... I felt I still had that mindset... Wow, I can't do anything that I wanna do here. So I'm gonna do everything I can. And I just moved here, from a place where there's nothing. So I was like, “Wow, a city”. And so, I spent a lot of time when I first moved here going...because I was still a video student, I want to PFA [Pacific Film Archive] constantly and I would see a bunch of different films and then I started volunteering at ATA in the city and I met--

Nia: ATA?

Grace: Artists' Television Access.

Nia: Oh.

Grace: Yeah. Through there... it's actually, when I first starting doing stuff at ATA, there was a queer film series by this guy, I can't think of his name, I think it's T, I can't remember his last name but I worked with him just... helping the projector and running the door and through there, I kind of was exposed to different alternative modes of filmmaking; just really weird stuff that I'd never seen anywhere else. And so it was nice to be around that, versus Mills. (both laugh) 

Nia: (laughing) Versus Mills. (indiscernible [00:09:17] 

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: So you already had—I kind of hate the term art practice, but you were already doing art before you came to Mills. And you came to Mills already knowing that you wanted to do art. What was your sort of pre-Mills art? Because it seems like you have a pretty long art career, you've done a lot. And you're—you know, I think only a year older than me. (both laughing) 

Grace: Yeah. I made art before I got to Mills for sure. But it was very private. I didn't really share it with a lot of people it was more... a lot of my drawings, people ask me, "Well, what are the faces or the repeated eyes?" And I've always just kind of explained it as being journals, basically. It's just something that I do that's really easy to get out and I did a lot of that when I was younger. My dad's an artist and so I lived with him before I came to Mills. And it was a really interesting experience because I feel like... just having a dad, an artist dad, there was certain amounts of critique that I had to deal with that... eventually, I think leaving kind of allowed me to flourish me a little bit.

Nia: That's so interesting. Because I feel... I don't know, I feel... lots of dads are critical. But to have a dad that's... specifically art critical (both laugh)…

Grace: Yeah, yeah!

Nia: That knows the language.

Grace: Oh my God! I always think of this, I even tell my friends to this day. It's...I remember one time I did this painting, and he was like, "Mmm, those are tube colors." (Nia laughs) And I thought about it and I was like, “You know, he's right. Mix some white into that.” But... at the time it was so hard. I was like “damn dad, I'm...19.” You know? (both laughing) But...I kind of broke through it...Once I got to Mills, I was still figuring out. At Mills, I just did a lot of video work but it wasn't, it was actually not until I left Mills, where I just kind of developed a little bit more. But I've been making art for a long time. I mean I used to draw. I used to go to... art summer camps when I was a kid. My mom used to send me to this all Native art summer camp and we'd do pottery and

printmaking and stuff. I made a little turtle and painted it, you know... I would do that every year as a kid and so, and with my dad being such a strong art person... I was always kind of... they were like, "Just give her a marker and a piece of paper and she'll be fine." That's kind of how I grew up, yeah.

Nia: That's cool. A lot of artists that I talk to, there's some resistance from the family in terms of them doing art. But it sounds like you always had a really supportive, creatively nurturing environment. Maybe not always creatively nurturing, but art was seen as a reasonable path for you to take? 

Grace: Reasonable to an extent. My dad still is—when I was getting my degrees, "Please just become an art therapist." It's always this amount of practicality. And I think that comes from my own father's, he has—I just did this show with him and it was all about kind of us exploring these ideas together, but he had a lot of really intense experiences that affected the way he perceived art institutions. And I think a lot of it comes down to him being a little burned and feeling bitter. And so, he's—he probably wouldn't say it to me directly but it's coming from a place of being protective. "Please don't be starving and trying to live off selling your paintings." He's like, "Just use your skill to help people just work through stuff." But I've never had any interest whatsoever in being an art therapist. So, I—

Nia: It's funny to me that that was the idea of a practical job. (laughs) 

Grace: (laughing) Yeah! I know right?! 

Nia: Like, “This is as close as we think we can get to you having a like a real career.” (laughing)

Grace: Yeah. Yeah. He's like, "Just do something practical! Be an art therapist." I think that he's told me that ten times. But he's definitely... my family has always been nurturing. Everyone is creative to some extent. I have uncles who are printmakers and my mom, my mom doesn't really practice, but when she was younger she would paint and she used to play the accordion and stuff. So I grew up in this creative, really creative household.

Nia: That's awesome. Is that how he supports himself? Or is that... his main [source of income]?

Grace: Mmm, no. He did for a second but now he works actually at a domestic violence shelter on the reservation. And I think, I don't know. It's hard for him. I talk to him about it and he's having a hard time with the job itself. But he's older and he kinda—he lived in the city and he worked at a... sorry, he worked at a university and he actually was an art professor. But it was this horrible school. I mean, it wasn't just a horrible school. It was a school that had a horrible mascot. And he taught at U of I; University of Illinois. And their mascot at the time was the "Fighting Illini." And it was just a white kid with fake, or I actually think he had real buckskin, which made it worse. He had buckskin, face paint.

He came out, he had a fake peace pipe. And so, my father was amongst a group of—there was probably twenty Native students who banded together and was like, "Hey, this is wrong." But I think that experience just eventually made him feel really over it. And he kind of has become a little bit of a recluse. So, it's interesting because when I go to visit him, which isn't often, but when I do, he just paints because he has a passion for it, not so much because he's trying to move it or sell it. 

Nia: When you say he was burned, do you feel like it was specifically from working in this school that had a super racist mascot? Or was it also, I'm guessing he also experienced racism outside of that, in the broader art world? 

Grace: Yeah. I think it was both. I mean, I think particularly being Native and working with Native themes is really, it's just complex. I mean, it is with any kind of art that you're making with identity; it's complex and it's hard. And there's always this balance you have to navigate on a personal level and also on the level on which it's going to be received. And I think my father really dealt with that. A lot of—growing up with him, I remember a lot of stuff. He would talk to me about the ideas of "Indian-ness," being super Indian or not. And his work is not very... he doesn't paint anything that's figurative, really. He's not really painting anything that's directly reflective of maybe like his culture. But he was also very much about, “Well, it's Native because I am and it's about my experience. And so, it's valid.” So I think he kind of had a lot of trouble navigating that in an art institution.

Nia: Because people had a specific idea of what Native art was supposed to look like and he wasn't doing that?

Grace: Yeah, yeah. And so, he felt frustrated. And then, on top of that, just being around that environment where it's... you're... I remember, I remember— I lived in that city with him when I was a child for—I think we lived there for two years. I was very young. 

Nia: I'm sorry, which city?

Grace: Urbana. 

Nia: Oh.

Grace: Yeah. I went to preschool there and they had chief heads on toilet paper. So... you're walking around, and it's just... this mascots on everything. And so, it... and it was really intense. I remember because my dad's activism too—I think there was times where someone threw rocks at our house. It became this really hostile environment... He eventually got a job there, which is crazy and he still talks about it. And it was just very much the way money works in institutions, the way racism plays out in institutions, eventually just made him want to leave. And so he left his job. 

Nia: So, Thin Leather was a project that you two worked on together. Could you talk a little bit about it? And I read about it on your website. I'd love if you could share with the listeners, where the name comes from for the Thin Leather project?

Grace: Yeah, yeah. Think Leather was the show that we did. It was actually the name of my great grandfather or the nickname. His name was Krauss Perkins but people around the neighborhood or around the reservation called him Thin Leather because he would prophesize and he would walk around door to door until his shoes were worn thin. So, just the way his boots looked, that was his nickname, was Thin Leather. And, the name for me was really interesting because I had just done a bunch of paintings in Navajo and I did those paintings—my mom's Navajo and my dad's Pima or... Diné and my dad's O'odham so—

Nia: I'm sorry, could you? What do you mean by a painting “in Navajo”? 

Grace: Just using Diné language. My grandmother is the last Native speaker and so the only way I can really access it, other than if I were to just immerse myself, is through books or dictionaries. So I did this project where I only used dictionaries. And, the text is really pointed and interesting that they use for examples. And so I did a lot of paintings with that. And I kinda want to do something like that, that mirrored that project with my dad. And so when he was talking to me, it was over Christmas time I went home, he was talking to me about my great grandpa, and he was like, “He was trilingual. He spoke Spanish, O'odham and English.” I was, oh, that's... that to me kind of brought together; that's what I want to work with is the ideas of living in worlds that kind of overlap and the intersections of that, and the language. And so, I tried to make a show that was these painting that were very—it was just us painting back and forth.

It started in person. I would paint something and I'd hand him a painting and he'd hand it back. And we would do that for a while. And we did probably five paintings that way. And then, when I got back to Oakland, I had him mail me a bunch of paintings and then painted them and mailed them back. And then it was a waiting game. Then I'd get them back and I'd open them. I would do these things where it was like, okay now I'm going to paint in O'odham. I'm gonna try and learn some O'odham and I'm going to bring things in that are really specific. And he would just completely paint over the text... I would paint something that I thought was so solid and I'd get back and it would be just solid white or something. And I'd be like, "Oh my God!" And I would talk to him about it and so...

But—it was interesting because I'd talk to my dad about it and was like, "This show's about language and you're painting over all the language I'm putting in it." And he was, "Oh no, but...it's the erasure of our language. I wanted to make it also about that. Because we don't know our language." And so when he said that to me, it was really intense. But it was also true. Because here I was trying so hard to grasp on to things and he kinda was taking it away. But that's what's been happening to us generationally. 

Nia: Yeah. I think there was a quote on your website where you said, that he said the language was dead.

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: And that's why he had been painting over it. And it's just so intense. (both laugh) 

Grace: Yeah, yeah. It's so intense... But I think it was—when he said that to me, it was really, "Oh!" But I think it was good because it also showed the—I don't know, there are a lot of challenges working with language. And I think it was kinda was... yeah, it is; it has been dead. I don't—I never met my grandparents on my dad's side. And I never even heard anyone in my family, on that side of the family, speak O'odham. So, yeah. It's interesting. But...and it's intense. But I think, when he said that, it kinda made sense; that those paintings are really convoluted. But so is our history and so is our language loss.

Nia: Yeah. I was trying think... so Sarah Burke from the East Bay Express wrote a little piece on your Thin Leather show, which I thought was great. But I was struggling with how I would describe your work. And it's really, I don't know, it's really hard. (both laugh)

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: Sarah's a lot better at it than I am. But it's just—the only thing I could keep thinking is that it's really weird. (laughs) 

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: Not bad, just... it's really weird. (laughing)

Grace: Wait, my work? 

Nia: Yeah, well that series in particular. I don't know if it's abstract because it's kind of, I mean it is figurative. But then it's also just... there's nothing sort of anchoring it in terms of space, you know? 

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: I feel like things are just kind of floating and it's very disorienting. 

Grace: Yeah, totally. 

Nia: Is that fair to say? 

Grace: No, that's totally fair. It's so funny. I had a studio visit with people, earlier this year. And, what I did was just have people sit around and kind of free write and I let people share what they thought because it just seemed beneficial and... so many people were like, "This stuff is so disorienting. It's convoluted. There's so much information." And I think it is kinda what happens with my work. It's really—and I think my father is the same way. We just can't be minimal. We can't be minimal painters. I can't... It was

almost too... the idea of us collaborating, it was, it was hard to know when to stop. And I think that's kind of what made it interesting; this push and pull of this kind of material.

Yeah. It is, it's an interesting series because there wasn't really, (I think that Sarah actually said that in her review), there wasn't really a destination. And we don't really provide a destination. And I think that's kind of the thing. I think it was more just about us like, "Hey, what if we worked together? And we're two Native artists and I'm thinking about these ideas and you're thinking about this." That was kind of just the exercise, is “what happens?” And it is kind of an overload of imagery. There's a lot and it is like floating. But it's not—it's interesting too, because it's—it was really important for me just as a painter because I get so—it's so easy to get locked on doing your thing. And I'm often kind of figurative. And my dad just would paint over like everything I did, everything. 

Nia: (laughing) That's so funny because on one hand, I feel I hear you saying it was a collaboration (Grace laughs), and then on the other hand, I feel I hear you saying he just undid everything you did. (Both laugh). 

Grace: (laughing) Yeah. But that's his collaboration; which I kind of like. It was—

Nia:  That's just so... I don't know. Thinking of father/daughter relationships-

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: And also the cultural aspect, where you're trying to reconnect with this lost heritage, and he's like "No!" (laughs)

Grace: Mmm-hmm.

Nia: There's just so much going on there. It's really intense. I'm sorry. I keep saying intense—

Grace: No, no! 

Nia: It's not a very useful… adjective. 

Grace: No, no. It really was. It was interesting though. It wasn't even control, it was kind of an exercise too, in a way of letting go of control. I think so much about art making is kind of getting tied what you're making and the idea of what you're making. And I think it was really important to do that with my father because it was kind of this exercise in trust. And also, I would get stuff back and yeah, I would definitely be like, "Oh my God!" I remember there was this one time I opened and I was like, "He painted this solid blue!" But then I thought about it, and I was like, “Well, what does it matter? I shouldn't be so fixed on these things that I make in this way.” you know, so—

Nia: That's just, that's very big of you. (laughing) I would just want to kill my dad! (both laugh) 

Grace: Yeah, yeah. See...There were definitely moments. I think there was one day where my girlfriend was, "Are you okay?" I was like, "Look what he did!" But then eventually, I was just like okay, okay. It's fine...Yeah. And I think it was really important too because it's...yeah.

I think for me it was about, it was all these things but it was also kinda just to me about our relationship. Because my dad, is someone who… he has this... really long history of activism and being really vocal about institutional racism, specifically with the art schools. And, yeah, he kinda has just become very non-figurative, very—he talks about his new work as being meditative. And they are. It's very abstract. And you see it a lot in those paintings. And I'm a little bit more pointed. I use a lot of language in my paintings, so, yeah. It was kind of what bridging those two ideas together, I guess.

Nia: (laughing) So I feel like a lot of my dad issues are coming up. 

Grace: (laughing) Yeah, yeah. No, totally. I'm like, “I'm gonna talk about my dad so much!” But, it's interesting. Because I don't think he—I don't talk to my dad that much, as much as I should probably. But, yeah, it's... dads, man. They really get ya! (Nia laughs). They're super, they're super formative in the way you view things. My mom definitely had her parts. But my dad, especially being an artist and having all these things. It was... I kinda grew up in in this way where I was given certain tools from him. And some of them have been beneficial and some not.

And so, especially as someone whose making art now, that is... kind of... I didn't even think I would eventually; I mean eventually I would get there, but... I'm in this space now where I really want to make art that is considering who I am. And that's exactly what my father did. And so it's kind of this weird, I don't know, there's this transference that's happening. And so, I see it sometimes. 

Nia: And it's... you're sort of following in his footsteps and he's like, "No, I've been there, don't—"

Grace: Yeah, yeah. He's like, "Be an art therapist." (both laugh) He's like, "Don't do it. Be an art therapist." 

Nia: ...Because you, you grew up with your dad moreso than your mom? Or you were going back and forth... because they live on different reservations? 

Grace: Yeah. Well, I grew up in Santa Fe and I lived this kind of multi-generational house with my mom, and my grandma, and my brother, and my aunt... whole family in the house. And my dad, actually, I didn't live with him that much. But I lived with him later in my life... between... I got kicked out of high school. And so, my parents were like, "What do we do with you?" So they sent me to this—

Nia: Wait, can we talk about that? (laughs)

Grace: Yeah. I got kicked out for truancy. But it was like, “You're doing me a favor. I'm not coming.” (Both laugh) That's basically what happened. They called my mom, they were like, "Grace hasn't come to school in X amount of time." I don't remember how long. I just—I'd get dropped at school and I would go to the library. And I would—because the library was across the street. It was...I just want to go to the library and read books and—

Nia: Yeah, so you were still interested in learning. You just didn't...

Grace: Yeah, I just. And I was a freak. I mean...now it's cool. But I dyed my hair and I wore weird—I look at pictures of me and I'm like, what the hell was I wearing? But I wore really weird vintage dresses that didn't make sense to anyone, even me. I look back and I'm like, “what am I wearing?” But, you know, I looked different. I kinda had that textbook tortured high school experience and it didn't suit me. And I also just felt a lot of things I was learning weren't valuable, in school.

So… and then I got kicked out and then my parents put me in an alternative high school that was just so underfunded and just so bad. It was a portable and they just gave you a worksheet of assignments you had to do, and it was self-paced. And if you did all the assignments on one page, it was like, “you passed history for ninth grade, or tenth grade or whatever grade you were in.” And so, I did that for a while. But then eventually, I was just like, “I don't even want to do this.” So I just got my G.E.D. And, yeah. That was an interesting experience... So...when I had to go through that transition, I started living with my dad. And I guess it was a pretty formative time because you're a teenager and you're kind of defining yourself differently. But before that, I lived with my mom and my grandma and my aunt and my brother. 

Nia: And did the two sides of the family live far apart from each other, or fairly close by? 

Grace: Umm, my—well my dad, when he was in grad school, when he was living in Illinois, he lived far away. And then, my... my mom now lives on the Navajo Nation, so she lives... Four Corners area; Northeast Arizona. And my dad lives kind of Central Arizona. It's a little bit close to Tucson, in between Tucson and Phoenix. 

Nia: Okay.

Grace: Yeah. 

Nia: I always think of Tucson as being really far south. But, is it not?

Grace: It's… it's kinda south. It's further south but Phoenix is a little bit more central. So, it's the mid-point and he's there. And so, they're kinda far away. So, yeah. It was a lot. I mean... if I wanna go see my mom, I have to fly. It's that kind of thing. 

Nia: Do you want to talk about the Black Salt Collective? 

Grace: Yeah, sure. Black Salt is a collective that—I think we've been around for a couple of years. I should know the actual date. But it was started—I lived in this house, with actually Adee [Roberson]. And one time, we were just like, "God, isn't it frustrating to be a person of color making art?" We were just talking about it, just talking about how alienating—it really is alienating sometimes. And so we were kind of venting about that. And-

Nia: Can you say what's alienating about it?

Grace: I feel the way art works is that if people don't get it, they don't wanna get it. And, I think if you're working with things that are about—I mean, you used the word intense, they are intense things... Our histories are really intense and hard. And I think a lot of the stuff I want to work through is about unpacking that, and—

Nia: You mean, our histories as people of color? 

Grace: Yeah. I mean, just so many things. It's just—and we're still working through them constantly and yeah, it's like the deeper we dig, it's almost the more it hurts. But it's, it's kinda the work that has to be done. 

Nia: Mmm-hmm.

Grace: And so, I feel what's alienating about, particularly in art, is just my experience with white peers or other white artists; is just kind of, I don't know. It's almost this hesitant attitude about understanding or even being open. I don't know... I had a friend who was just going to CCA [California College of Art] and he's this wonderful artist. He told me this thing, and I think it's really reflective about how people feel about it. But he said, in a critique, someone said, "You just make 90`'s identity art."

Nia: (laughing) What?!!

Grace: Yeah. Yeah! And this is last year, at CCA. So, I think that's kind of how it is alienating... People really have that attitude though... you just make identity art—

Nia: If you're brown or if you're queer—

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: If you're different in some way. 

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: Your art is automatically assumed to be like, yeah, identity art. 

Grace: Yeah. And it's so labeled. It's more labeled than anything else. And I think that, and I think there's room to have those labels, and so it's, it's own, creating a space. But I think also there's this thing where it's—you know, we're not having... they should call it that..."the white dude biennial" or something. But you know, it's just— it's really intense, how those things get categorized and kind of—there's a hierarchy of things being more serious or more... If things are conceptual, there's a certain, I don't know, there's a certain network of people who understand it and want to be a part of it. And then there's identity work, there's a certain group. So it gets really broken up; art is just a very broken up, intense structure. 

Nia: Yeah, I think so—earlier we were talking about my zine Art School is Hell.

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: And, one of the—Yeah, I guess a couple of the things I found in art school was--you were talking about in critiques, a lack of willingness or an inability to engage on a level that's actually useful.

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: Because of all they can see is, “it's brown”—

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: “Or it's about brown things”, which is not really a helpful critique. (laughs)

Grace: Yeah! 

Nia: But then also—I guess one of the things I struggle with and think about a lot is that, I feel like my parents raised me with the idea that the arts were somehow more progressive than the rest of the world, and you know a place where it was safe to be different and explore ideas. And not only is the arts world super racist, but it's also like super resistant to change in a lot of ways.

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: I don't know. I read, Jeff Chang's book Who We Be, recently. And it talks a lot about how, in some ways art and culture has always been at the forefront of change. But in terms of art and culture institutions, they've always been so far behind.

Grace: Yeah. And I think that's... when I was kind of talking about Black Salt, that's why we were like, “Hey, let's do something about this. Let's work together.” And I didn't know what it was going to become, to be honest. It was kinda like “Let's do something”. And, having my connection at ATA, it was, “Oh, let's have a show at ATA”. And so, we kinda just put our art up on the wall and... each of us just had our individual space. And

since then, it's kinda become a thing that's—it's interesting... I feel like it's new for all of us to collaborate on this scale.

It's four people. It's four ideas. And we're all from very separate cultures and identities. So it's us coming together and kind of working together to navigate the space. And I think it really is about healing each other. And, yeah. And creating that space for each other to talk about these things. Despite just making art, we're also a network of friends and we all really care about each other. So, it was kind of... it just felt really important to band together at that time. And we're still going. We have a show coming up in January. 

Nia: At SOMArts? 

Grace: Yeah. SOMArts.

Nia: That's exciting. 

Grace: Yeah. I think it's gonna be a great show. So... what we want to do just as a collective is really make people of color, women of color, queer women of color, actually visible. And, put in a place where we are… I don't know. I don't want to say “taken seriously”. But in a way, yeah. Taken seriously. In a way where it's done from a genuine place because there is that support there. So... yeah, which I think is lacking in a lot of other art scenes. It's more about posturing and I don't feel like, who we are as a group of people, at least amongst ourselves as friends, we're really, we're really caring about each other. And we really give each other a lot of feedback, and I don't know. It's constantly, we're always constantly working through things together. And so, it's a really good, it's a good group, it's a good collective and I'm glad that it happened the way it did.

Nia: I guess that has me thinking about the idea of even creating your own spaces versus fighting for recognition within the established—

Grace: Yeah. 

Nia: --Things that are there. I'm curious, do you--I don't know. Do you see merits to both? Or do you feel like fuck it and just do your own thing? (laughs)

Grace: (laughs) Yeah. That's so funny. I think I'm...just do your own thing. I'm just at this point—because I have moments too, because I feel—I mean, let's be real. The Bay is changing, art insti—even museums are struggling in the Bay... And that's white people money. (laughs) You know... if that's going down, there's stuff happening. And so, I always have these moments where… So many people are just like, nothing's happening in the Bay, I'm gonna move to LA, I'm gonna move to New York, these things and I'm just-

Nia: (laughs) Who is saying that? 

Grace: Just a lot of people. 

Nia: Artists?

Grace: Yeah. I know, people who are like, I moved to LA and now I have shows. Or I moved to this space, and I have shows. You know. And I think that's true. There's more opportunities in other places. But, I'm getting to this point where I'm like, “screw it, I'm just gonna do it. I'm gonna make it work. I'm gonna find…” I have this garage in my backyard and I cleaned it out, and I have so much on my plate this year, I don't know if I'm gonna get around to it. But I want to make it a space where I show primarily people of color. That's my goal. And so...

Nia: So start a gallery?

Grace: Yeah, a little... and... it's not gonna be super polished, it's a garage. But I like the idea of having pop up shows and inviting people to just be—the whole space is yours. You can do a residency and build whatever you want and have a show. 

Nia: That sounds awesome.

Grace: Yeah. And it's huge. It's a two-car garage and a stand-alone. We have a nice little backyard and so, that's my...my vision. And so, I think that's the thing... I feel, I don't know. It's so interesting. Yeah. Trying to fight to be seen or heard is something that I really admire people for, but I'm at a point where I'm just like, "I can't. Get out of the way. I gotta just do things." Because it can also get frustrating—back to my dad. There's someone who really fought to be heard and I don't think it always has to be so crushing, but I think it's also important to just kind of live by vision versus circumstance, and really push forward. And so, and it takes a lot. It's hard work as well. It's also really intense, emotional labor. 

Nia: Yeah. Yep. (both laugh)

Grace: Yeah, exactly. 

Nia: I feel like we covered a lot of good stuff. Is there anything, any final thoughts you want to add before we wrap? 

Grace: Should I talk about my show, the show at SOMArts? 

Nia: Sure, yeah. 

Grace: In January of 2016, Black Salt is curating a show called "Visions Into Infinite Archives." And, the show is basically, we're creating—we call it a working archive of artists of color; multi-generational. We have a lot of great artists involved. We have Postcommodity. They're going to do a video installation. We have Derrick Adams, we have Lonnie Holley, we have—there's just so many people. Indira is going to be in it; Indira Allegra. So the idea was just to kind of, each of us within our own personal networks bring people we admire into the space. And... we're kinda giving everyone just

a space to show their work. And the idea, is having it—playing with the idea of the way art is normally viewed; very institution. And kind of creating these—we're trying to create installations that are less on the wall. And—

Nia: (laughing) Sorry, the sound of your leggings is picking up.

Grace: (laughs) Oh really? I'm sorry. (both laugh)

Nia: It’s cool, it’s just funny.

Grace: It's just... it's this stiff polyester rubbing. But yeah, so… that will be a really good show. It's gonna be in January to February and, I don't know. I think—I'm actually really looking forward to it.

Nia: Yeah, me too. 

Grace: Yeah, yeah. I know. We were—we just had a meeting with one of the curators at SOMArts and she was like, "Oh my God, I'm so happy!" Because she's a queer person of color too. I think it's really important, especially now, with the way things are changing, to present—I've always used the word “overwhelming” because I want people to be overwhelmed by it... And I mean overwhelmed in the sense where it's just very much like, “we're here”. And it's not just a particular set of people. It's a bunch of people. There's elders in the show, there's younger more—and we talked about this too, the ideas of emerging versus established artists and those are things that we don't necessarily believe in. We're really trying to break down those ideas and have everyone just shown in a way that seems equal. And yeah, there's going to be performances on opening and closing night, and we're going to have a film screening of all people of color as well. 

Nia: Awesome. 

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: I'm so excited. 

Grace: Yeah.

Nia: I usually won't go to SF for anything, but I'd probably go for this (both laugh)

Grace: Yeah! Awesome. Come by!

Nia: (laughs) Cool.