We Want the Airwaves - Queer RebelsTranscribed by Gunjan Chopra

(musical intro)

Kali Boyce: We are Queer Rebels. I'm KB. This is Celeste.

Celeste Chan: Hello!

KB: We co-founded Queer Rebels in 2008. We are a performance project that programs and curates events -

Celeste: - multi-disciplinary events from film to music to spoken word to playwriting to experimental performance art... basically everything.

KB: All queer and trans people of color-created though.

Celeste: Right.

KB: And we're really about the creation of new art for the future, as well as the archiving of the art that queer and trans people of color create today, for the future.

Celeste: Basically our mission statement is to break it down do arts for queer and trans artists of colour, to connect generations and to honor our histories with art for the future.

KB: So yeah that's what we're about.

Celeste: That's what Queer Rebels is about. (laughs) Yeah.

KB: It's our baby, basically.

Celeste: Yeah... It's our love baby. (laughs)

KB: People ask, "Oh are you gonna have kids?"

(Celeste laughs)

KB: We have kids! And we're really proud of them!

Nia King: So yeah, for those who don't know, you are a couple.

Celeste: Yeah! (laughs)

KB: (laughs) Well yeah, there's that. And we've been together longer than Queer Rebels, but we recently got married, so we are actually, you know -

Celeste: - official. (laughs)

KB: Yeah, official. Business and everything - couple.

Nia: Congratulations.

KB: Thank you.

Celeste: Thanks.

Nia: I think you might be the first QPOC power couple I've had on the podcast.

Celeste: Oh! (laughs)

KB: We’re a power couple," hun. Woohoo!

(laughter)

Nia: Do you wanna talk a little bit about who you are as individuals? I know you're both artists in your own right.

KB: Ladies first, babe.

Celeste: Oh, I was gonna say you first! (laughs)

KB: After you, love.

Celeste: After you.

KB: All right! Well I am the -

Celeste: Talk about your punk days! (laughs)

KB: My punk days. I've been an artist, musician, writer, filmmaker, all this kinda stuff, all my life. So I'm really blessed in that regard.

Nia: Did you both grow up in the Bay?

KB: I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. In fact I was in New York. When I was a teenager, I was songwriter/front-person for a band called NastyFacts. We were a punk band. So we put a little record out back in the day and I would run around playing it at CBGB's and at Max's Kansas City and joints like that.

Nia: And this would've been approximately when?

KB: This would be around 1978.

Nia: Oh wow.

Celeste: In New York.

KB: In New York, during that. So that was my upbringing. I also managed that band. I was the front person, manager, I wrote the songs -

Celeste: - got gigs...

KB: I got us gigs. And I didn't think anything about it. It was just like natural, it was just what I wanted to do. I just wanted to make it happen.

Nia: I have so many more questions! (laughs) Maybe some day we can do a part 2, just talk about punk rock. (laughs)

KB: I would love to. Because that was some - that was a crazy time. Right when it happened! I was a teenager and I was out, I was gay, and I was trying to figure out... I was probably 15, I was 16 when we got signed. We got signed and put out a little record.

Nia: Who signed you?

KB: An indie label called Jimboco.

Nia: Okay.

KB: You can actually still find - The band was called NastyFacts, one work. And you can google us and you'll see pictures of me with my -

Celeste: - still has the same style! (laughs)

KB: I kinda still wear them...

Nia: Same style fashion wise or music wise?

KB: More fashion wise.

Celeste: The spirit of punk -

KB: The spirit of punk is in me. I've called myself a queer blues musician now. I queer the blues. I've been doing that since like 2006.

Nia: And you have the blue hair to match. (laughs) Which they can't see.

KB: Yeah. That attitude and DIY and don't think about what other people are saying about you kinda attitude that I got from being a young punk has never ever left me.

Nia: Yeah. I'm really glad you brought that up. Because I feel like, I'm a person of color who was politicized within punk rock and anarcha-punk activism, and my being brown and being punk there are certain things that I've had to... like, one sort of detracts from the other.

KB: Right.

Nia: But the DIY ethic totally sticks with you and also is super crucial to getting shit done with very little resources.

(*snaps*)

KB: Thank youuu.

Nia: Which is what so much of QPOC and QPOC art activism in particular are doing.

KB: Are about. That's what we have to be about. Right. Well, Queer Rebels comes from Celeste and I feeling like there were not enough spaces for queer and trans artists of color to a) get any gigs, b) get any respect, and c) get paid! Get recognized for creating this incredible art that we create. We cannot help it. That's what we do – we create.

Celeste: Especially those who are doing experimental work or those who are doing works that are challenging or provocative. Or works that really tie into history.

KB: So we came up with the idea of Queer Rebels to create space, to create a platform, to create an opening for queer and trans artists in the world. Because you look around, you just don't see

it. It's not like we're brand new. It's like, you know, queer artists of color have been around forever. What inspired us initially was the Harlem Renaissance and the energy that the LGBT community brought to that movement, really sparked us to start with Queer Rebels of the Harlem Renaissance. Our project has grown since then. But that is so important for folks to know the history. We need to know about our history. Especially with all the stuff that's going down right now.

Celeste: Oh, yeah.

KB: We all need to realize and recognize that we've been through - This is a struggle that is ongoing. It's been happening a long time. But we've always been there in the forefront. With art. And it's really needed during these times of struggle. We need to be able to lean back on something that we've created, and what we're saying to our community. That's what's...

Anyway, that's where we're at, is trying to get that point across. And just trying to get our art out there. Not just for us, but for the community. There are so many artists who are SO talented, and folks need to know that. And that's where we're at. Getting the word out there.

Nia: Do you want to talk a little bit about your work as an individual artist?

Celeste: Oh, sure. Yeah. I grew up in Seattle. Riot Grrl was a little bit before my time, but definitely influenced me. Moved to Olympia and finished school at Evergreen State College. So was around a lot of what was happening there, like the secret cafes, or all the drag shows, and rock operas, and things that were happening -

KB: What’s the time frame?

Celeste: Oh, time frame. Late 90's, early 2000's. Roughly. So things had definitely shifted. But I think definitely I'm also inspired by the DIY ethos. Not waiting around for something to happen but going in and making it happen. Regardless of what kind of resources you have or don't have. Or what kind of support you have or don't have. (laughs)

Let's see, what else can I tell you. Yeah, so at Evergreen, I got my start in video and writing there. Basically we had unlimited access to the editing suites and to cameras and to all of that, which I really miss! I really wish you could have that at any other school. You didn't have to be a film major to get that kind of access. That's really what got me started in film, having that freedom to use the equipment and to experiment. I moved down to the Bay Area... My parents actually met in the Bay Area and lived here during the 60's and 70's...

Nia: Are they like what you would imagine a couple living in the Bay area at that time would be like?

Celeste: (laughs) Well... let's see. How do I describe...?

KB: They're a sweet, mixed race couple.

Celeste: Yeah... They were scholarship students. My dad's Chinese from Malaysia, my mom's Jewish from the Bronx. And gosh, they were... How can I describe them?

Nia: Ashkenazi Jewish or?

Celeste: Yeah, yeah. Eastern European. So these are all influences.

Nia: I think I’m really trying to ask if they are hippies.

Celeste: Oh, gotcha. Well I'll put it this way. My dad said he was a part-time hippie. (laughs) If that makes sense to you. They were going to free speech movement protests, and Joan Baez and Bob Dylan concerts, and Hendrix concerts before he got big. My dad was like, “He was really down to earth, you could just sit down and talk to him.” It's like, whoa, that must've been before he -

KB: Your dad knows quite a bit about music. He's talked to me about blues stuff, really interesting cat.

Celeste: Yeah. I know, it's so interesting. Our parents had these lives before we were born that we don't know. (laughs) Who'da thunk? There's a lot there. So actually this interest in history partly came from my own family and wanting to know more about what were these histories in my family. As well as the histories of queer and trans people of color, artists of color that have really been hidden or marginalized.

Nia: And when I've seen you perform, I think it's mostly been as a dancer. Is that your primary mode of artistic expression?

[There was a long pause here that got edited out.]

KB: If I might jump in, I think your primary mode is your writing. Your writing is incredibly strong and powerful.

Celeste: I think it's a tie between writing and film video. And then I have a background in dance, so.

Nia: I knew you were a writer because I saw you did some kind of Lambda Literary...

something?

Celeste: Yeah. I attended a Lambda Literary retreat earlier this summer which was amazing. Highly recommend it. And VONA. Which I would also highly recommend.

Nia: I did VONA too.

Celeste: Oh, okay.

Nia: Which VONA track were you on?

Celeste: I was in, most recently, with Faith Adiele in Travel Writing. Which was really [focused on] place and memoir. I would highly recommend working with her. She's awesome.

Nia: That's so cool. She taught at Mills but I never got to take a class with her.

Celeste: Oh, cool.

Nia: Okay, so going back to the Harlem Renaissance. What made you decide on that as a jumping off point? That was your first show, right?

KB: That was our first attempt at doing a show. We had no idea that it was going to take off, and that we would wind up doing it year after year after year. We're really blessed that that happened. What made us start with Harlem...?

Celeste: I think it really grew out of your performances, KB. Your performances as drag king of the blues, and as a cross-dressing blues performer. KB: That and being inspired by – knowing that there were so many gay folks during that time period. And that not enough people knew about that. And that they were happening, they went through the Great Depression... When we were coming up with these ideas of what to do, we were going through – there was the big economic downturn, and it just felt so like, wow, we've seen this before. And how did these artists back in the Harlem times, how did they deal with this stuff?

Just talking about that and thinking about it inspired us to create this homage production to highlight that queer energy that more people need to know about, and really just inspired us as we were coming up with it, as we're creating this whole show. So that's kind of where that came from. And there's so much inspiration there and more people needed to know. And apparently, we were right! It really took off.

Nia: Yeah. I feel like the Harlem Renaissance is the first Black queer history that I really know

about. And I know that Black queer history goes back further than that, but -

KB: So hard to find, though. So hard to find anything.

Nia: Right. It's like the Harlem Renaissance seems like the first time where it was really documented. And also, it seems like a lot of people that were involved were - I don't know if they were queer on the DL, or if it just wasn't documented... like queerness somehow escaped the history books.

KB: Escaped isn't the word. I think that's the kind of stuff that they try to erase.

Nia: Right.

KB: They just don't want to admit that they were gay. Or whatever. The family of certain people after they've passed is like, you know, you don't have to talk about that part. Or whatever. So there's a lot of that. And that I think is part of what drove us to create Queer Rebels of the Harlem Renaissance. Although people do know a bit about the Harlem Renaissance having some gay energy, this and that, “Oh, Langston,” they know that name. But that's about it. And there's so much more. If you can dig deeper and find it. And that's the thing, it's really hard to find that info and histories.

Nia: Do you want to drop some names for people? You want to give people some homework?

Celeste: Oh yeah. (laughs)

KB: Sure.

Celeste: Definitely folks like Gladys Bentley, Ethel Waters...

KB: Richard Bruce Nugent...Celeste: Claude McKay, A'lelia Walker... [Who I] actually don't think was an artist but was famous for her parties.

KB: Yeah. Parties, and she was I think her -

Nia: What's gayer than being famous for your parties?

(laughter)

KB: Heyyy!

KB: She was also a mogul. I believe she was one of the first African American women who - I think it was in the hair products...

Nia: A lot of the first Black women making lots of money were -

KB: In hair care. Yup.

Nia: Yeah. Specifically like straightening products.

KB: Yeah, unfortunately. It is complex. Isn't it complicated! Ugh. But that's what's real. It's history. And we all need to really reach back and know our history so history does not have to repeat itself, you know. We really need to pay attention to a lot of stuff, just because of what's going on.

Celeste: Absolutely. I think there was this real push for historical amnesia for like, “Oh slavery was so long ago, that doesn't matter.” But of course it does. Look at what's happening.

KB: And it wasn't that long ago...

Celeste: No. It really wasn't that long ago.

KB: And they're pulling the same stuff again! It's just, come on now! But anyway. A lot going on.

Celeste: Definitely. All of this state violence and police shootings against Black people that really serve as lynchings, you know.

KB: Modern day.

Celeste: Yeah.

Nia: And just for context - not that anyone's going to forget this mass movement we're in the middle of - but as we're recording this, there's a huge demonstration happening in downtown Oakland. Today's the day of the Millions March, is that what it's being called? And it's not too long after the failure to indict both the killer of Eric Garner and the killer of Mike Brown.

KB: Intense times, right now.

Nia: Yeah... It's hard to transition from that.

KB: Right? It's just so much. So much. I've been feeling it. I just am feeling drained. Although I

want to be positive, and just want our art to get out there, I just want to be supporting the crowds who are out. They need support. In the sixties, there were always musicians and artists out there supporting the movement. And that's where I feel like queer and trans artists of color fit in to this whole scenario. We all need to be out there showing that we're here.

Celeste: Right. This art that is making change. There's definitely such a strong legacy of protest art that's specifically Black. I think definitely we want to tie into that. I think we're awful interested - I know we've mentioned Queer Rebels fest - we're interested in examining the spaces of tension and solidarity between different communities of color.

KB: Yes.

Celeste: I mean 'cause we're all under this "QTPOC" umbrella but really looking at -

KB: That works for some folks and that doesn't work for others.

Celeste: Yeah. And how do AAPIs [Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders] show up and support Black communities. Queer Black communities. How do we function together? We're really interested in looking at that and -

KB: Opening that dialogue. Continuing that dialogue, rather.

Nia: The big shows that you've done historically have been focused - we talked about this before - either specifically Black queer art, or Asian queer art, and as we'll talk about a little bit later, you're working on merging those things together.

KB: Well, with our experimental films, we've always merged.

Celeste: Yeah, that's true.

KB: The art film programs have always tried to draw from as many parts of our communities as we can, as queer filmmakers. We're simply trying to bring that more to the rest of the art that we're promoting, and tie it all together. And talk about how we work together. And how we create together, and how we are together in the world. And how... you know, help me out here -

Celeste: (laughs) Yeah. Definitely. It's interesting, I think I was telling someone, maybe it was Pam, that with Queer Rebels, our origin is coalitional. Like, you and I are a coalition. KB: Yeah.

Celeste: And we're trying to create this art together.

KB: And we're intergenerational!

Celeste: Yes, coalitional and intergenerational! (laughs) That's true.

KB: Somebody once said to us, "Wow, you are your mission statement."

Celeste: (laughs) I know!

KB: Like, well, yeah...

Celeste: We're connecting generations. (laughs)

Nia: Oh! I wanted to ask you about something you said. You said “QTPOC” is an acronym that works for some folks and doesn't work for others. I would love if you could say a little bit more about that.

Celeste: There are real differences in the history of anti-Black racism in this country versus the experience of Asian Americans, or the experience of Latinos. We are facing different variations of racism. It doesn't look the same. The history isn't the same either.

KB: No, but we're all going through this oppression, different types of oppressions, and if you really kind of break it down to the roots, and where it's coming from, it's not from each other, you know. Anyway we're trying to create spaces where we can gather together in ways that are not just in a bar. Where folks can get together and think and see some beautiful art and connect. That's been people from all across generations, ethnicities, whatever, we just want to pull it together. And our way of doing that is art. Because that's what we're okay at doing. Kinda sorta. (laughs) So we try to, you know, stick with what we know. And we know art. And we know love.

Celeste: 'We know art, and we know love.” (laughs) I love you KB.

KB: See?

Nia: Can we talk a little bit about Spirit, and the intentions behind that? First, can you explain what it is and then we'll go from there.

Celeste: Okay. Spirit is... We launched it in 2013. So it existed in 2013 and 2014. And it was a celebration of queer Asian, Arab, and Pacific Islander artivism.

KB: Queer and trans.

Celeste: Queer and trans, for sure. I think our first year we focused more specifically on Asian, and the second year, we focused more on being a broader bridge, and being Asian, Arab, and Pacific Islander. Wanting to look at contemporary art and also our different histories. I mean it's interesting 'cause here in the US we're really lumped together under that umbrella, but there's so many differences between the groups that -

Nia: I feel like it's actually fairly unusual to hear "Arab" lumped in with Asian/Pacific Islander. That seems kind of unique to the show. Do you disagree?

Celeste: Oh, no. I understand. From my perspective I'm definitely interested in where we intersect, and we are all facing Orientalism, or we're all together in this lens. And many of our countries have known war, from the war in the Philippines, to Vietnam, to Korea, to the many wars in the Middle East, in Iraq... I was really interested in bringing those experiences together, somehow, without flattening them out.

Nia: Do you both play an equal curatorial role in both of these shows? Or is it, one of you does more Harlem Renaissance, one of you does more Spirit?

KB: I think we help each other as Queer Rebel Productions. We kind of are blessed in that we work really well together, and we can play off of one another. I don't really feel like I can take [credit], like, "Oh yes, Harlem is my baby!" Like in a way, the Harlem show is my baby and then Spirit is Celeste's, but I think we help each other. I'm more comfortable with saying it's a Queer Rebel thing, than I am with, really saying that one or the other... But it's up to you, what do you think?

Celeste: I think it's both. I think it's both. It's both that Queer Harlem really grew out of your performances, and I am more comfortable playing a supportive role in that, and I'm trying to support the community but not be like, "Oh, let me tell you what to do" as an outsider.

KB: Right. And I absolutely feel that way about the Spirit event as well. But we also both bring different aspects to the table when we are creating events. We've come from different backgrounds, we have different experience, and different levels of experience. So we bring different elements. The way that we work it out together seems to work out. It seems to be okay.

Celeste: Yeah. (laughter)

KB: It's aaawriiight.

Nia: It's an impressive roster of artists that you guys have worked with. I was looking at it just before you came here. Some are folks who have been on the podcast, I'm happy to say.

Celeste: Oh, yay.

Nia: Ryka Aoki; Tina Takemoto I told you I just interviewed; Manish.Celeste: Oh yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Nia: How do you make curatorial decisions about both who you want to work with, and what kind of pieces you want to include in particular shows?

KB: Well...

Celeste: Well.

KB: We tend to go out and scout talent.

Celeste: Yeah. We really like doing that. We like to see what people's performances are like, or -

KB: - how they're connecting with their audience. How they are getting their art across. When performers really touch us, we're like, "Oh, we should get them!"

Celeste: Yeah! (laughs)

KB: It's just something you feel, you know, like "Oh, yes! I am feeling them."

Celeste: (laughs) And then you make that face.

KB: Yes!

Celeste: We both do. (laughs)

Nia: You two are both based in San Francisco. But Spirit was not just a local artist show. You had people from all over. And maybe that was true for Harlem Renaissance as well?

KB: We've pulled a few folks for the Harlem show as well. But we do try when we are out and about, and when we do college events or when we do mix New York City to go as well, to see events, to see performers when we can. We try to just find queer and trans people of color artists, you know.

Celeste: And we're interested in bringing a balance between folks who are pretty established and folks who are emerging, and all over the spectrum, really. We really want to pull from all over.

KB: Yeah.

Celeste: I think having that mixture is really beautiful. Having people interact at different levels of their careers is important.

KB: Like having a Youth Speaks-type kid, like Joshua Merchant and then -

Celeste: He's incredibly talented.

KB: He is amazing! For someone who's so young. Amazing and so sincere. Then having Jewelle Gomez and getting to see two people like that interact backstage. It's little things like that that mean a lot to us with Queer Rebels. Because it is getting the art out to the audience, but it's also connecting the artist community. The generations don't have that many spaces where we can be in the same room just hanging out in a mellow way. Like backstage, everyone's putting makeup on, or whatever...

Celeste: Totally!

KB: You know, it's just a beautiful thing. It feels like it's really important.

KB: Yeah. We all know one another or have worked together and probably will work together again in the future. It's just an amazing time to be around. When I was in my twenties, there was nothing like this! There was nothing like this happening.

Nia: Even in New York?

KB: Yeah. I didn't know any other queer of color punks, period. I did not know not one, other than me. That was it. It makes me happy that we can be here doing this now. I wish there was something like this when I was younger, but there wasn't, so I'm very very excited to be a part of this.

Nia: Making up for lost time…

KB: Yeah. And putting stuff out there that I would've killed for.

Celeste: (laughs) I know! I think that's part of the vision, right. That's part of trying to fill that void, and trying to create these intergenerational spaces; these spaces for QTPOC experimentation and work that is - you know, we want work that's such a range. That's not afraid to be freaky raw or non-linear.

KB: Yeah, we're down with that.

Nia: Would you say that you have an emphasis on experimental art and video?

Celeste: Yes.

KB: In our hearts, for sure.

Celeste: For sure.

Nia: So your personal taste is more -

Celeste: For sure, for sure.

KB: The historical context is key. It's hella important. But, also the freedom that comes with experimentation, how inspiring.

Celeste: And that it is part of our tradition.KB: It is a tradition that goes way back. I mean, way back. Just step back a moment and think about Sun Ra, but go even way further back, with experimental African American stuff, or African in general. I feel like it's important that folks know that. Especially in the art world, I feel like there's very little space for experimentation when it's people of color artists. I just think that's bullshit.

Celeste: Yeah. Right, right. People need to know that we have these histories. That it's not just a white thing to -

Nia: - that we can be weird too.

KB: Not just that we can be weird too, but that we have been creating this experimental stuff -

Celeste: That we've been innovating.

KB: - that is really amazing and touches you. We have a history of experimental works that actually have substance and have some kind of spine, and have some thing going on.

Celeste: We're pushing both genres and format and content and pushing all of that, making work that's equally experimental and urgent.

KB: Exactly.

Celeste: That's socially politically urgent at this time. I think going back to our own stories and backgrounds, we have these histories that need to be told. Queer and trans artists of color, we've

for so long been erased or been made illegible. We're really wanting to uncover that. We're really wanting to shine a light on new artists and also look back at these histories that, it's like these artistic lineages that we are connected to, whether we know it or not.

Nia: I really appreciate what you said about the work being both experimental and urgent. That word choice in particular. I personally have a hard time with things that are abstract. (laughs) I like things to be super concrete, that's my aesthetic preference, I guess. I think sometimes because of the lack of urgency that I sometimes perceive from white performance art, I interpret it as nonsense (laughs) or self-indulgent, but what you're talking about is very different, and is explicitly political while at the same time being experimental.

Celeste: From looking back at our ancestors on Angel Island during the Chinese Exclusion Act to looking back at elders in Harlem during the 1920's, and everything between. These films looked at our current queer of color lives and our histories. And it was really, really tremendously well received in New York.

KB: Yeah, they treated us real nicely.

Celeste: I think people were hungry for it. I think because there isn't much of a space for queer and trans artist of color doing experimental work. Or there isn't much of a knowledge of that either.

KB: Right. Right. Even though that premiere at the 25th MIX was right after superstorm Sandy...

Celeste: Oh yeah, there were still subway stations shut down. Like you'd get up there and you're like, it's flooded.

KB: - no power...

Celeste: Yeah, Red Hook had no power.

KB: We didn't know if the MIX was really going to happen. But they were determined and they made it happen. And we also didn't think we'd get any folks because they gave us a Wednesday evening right after superstorm Sandy.

Celeste: And we're from out of town...

KB: It was our first time!

Celeste: Who knows who we are?

KB: Nobody knew. But because there is such a void, and there is an audience for queer experimental art, we packed the place. It was full.

Nia: So you had your own night. And it was marketed as being specifically QPOC.

KB: Yes. Absolutely. I think it was one of the first of QTPOC nights that MIX had ventured. I think it was one of the first.

Celeste: No, they had some past histories...

KB: Yeah, of films here and there. Hmmm. Maybe - Anyway we were very excited that it went off the way it did, considering the storm, and considering the state of New York at that moment.

Nia: Yeah, it's amazing that you had a packed house.

KB: But it makes sense! This touches us! What we do means a lot to us. And it's not just us. It's not just you and me.

Celeste: Mmmhm.

KB: There's an audience that's hungry for art.

Nia: And not just in the Bay.

KB: That's why we want to get this out there, you know.

Nia: Then you had a more recent film project or event called Ancient Future.

Celeste: Yes. We debuted it in New York at MIX again.

KB: MIX 27.

Celeste: Yes, MIX 27. And another packed and positive house. We're bringing it back here to the Bay area on Wednesday. Then we're also bringing it to Outsider Fest in Austin in February. Really excited because that's the first Outsider Fest that's happening. And it's multi-arts queer and trans art.

Nia: Oh, very cool.

KB: We're excited to be a part of that. So tell all your friends!

Celeste: Yeah!

Nia: That's February 18th to the 22nd?

Celeste: Yeah.

Nia: You also have a Bay show coming up in late spring, as part of the National Queer Arts festival, which I thought usually starts in June, but you said your event is in late May.

Celeste: Yeah. The very end of May. 28th and 29th, I believe.

Nia: Hopefully that'll be before everything gets too crazy! (laughs)

Celeste: (laughs) I hope so too!

Nia: I always get so overwhelmed at the the National Queer Arts festival, there's so much stuff I want to go to.

KB: There's so much happening.

Celeste: Yeah, it's a lot.

KB: But I believe we are opening the festival and we'll be opening the festival with our debut of the Queer Rebel Fest.

Celeste: Yeah! Really excited about that.

KB: First time trying to do this! Two days of Queer Rebels.

Celeste: (laughs)

KB: We're going to try to roll everything into two days.

Celeste: I think it's really exciting. I'm really excited to look at what are those spaces of separation and solidarity with queer and trans people of color.

KB: Absolutely.

Celeste: I mean, where do our histories connect, where do they diverge, in what ways historically have we been pitted against each other. Because they're all really important things to look at.

KB: And how to work together now. That's what we're going to try and do.

Nia: So I think this might have been before I started recording, but I think you described Queer Rebels Fest as combining the events that you've already done, being Queer Rebels of the Harlem Renaissance, Spirit, and experimental -

Celeste: - experimental films, Exploding Lineage...

Nia: But also moving from work that focuses largely on Black queer and Asian queer art to a more pan-ethnic QTPOC type of thing -

Celeste: (laughs) That mouthful, yes.

Nia: Do you want to talk a little bit about that? And how and why you made that decision?

Celeste: I think since our inception, we were interested in doing something of the like, doing something that was cross-QTPOC artistic exploration... does that make sense? It's such a mouthful. (laughs) We've always wanted to combine our events. I think also a desire for exploring what does “QTPOC” mean? It's a coalitional term, but how can we be a better coalition? I mean we all occupy different spaces in America's racial hierarchy, and we have different historical contexts here. We're really interested in looking at how do we support each other? How do we critique anti-Black racism within QTPOC spaces? How do we look at the erasure or invisibility of queer AAPI's and queer Arab people?

Oh, we just wrote an article! We just wrote an article that was for Ada, the journal of feminism, media studies, and new technology. It was called "Welcome to the Queer Rebellion" and it was actually on hacking the black-white racial binary. In it we were trying to talk both about the – especially given what's happening in the world – the violence and deadliness of anti-Black racism, and wanting to acknowledge and resist that and to simultaneously celebrate queer Black brilliance. And to also hack this racial binary that says some of us do not exist. How do we do that? How do we carve out more spaces for all of us?

Nia: Do you have answers?

Celeste: (laughs) More questions than answers! Way more questions than answers. It's such a both/and situation. Even in saying "hacking the black-white racial binary" we have to look at [how] deadly anti-Black racism is. Let me just say this, my dad grew up in a colonized country, survived a war, World War II, where the Japanese occupied southeast Asia and put people into internment camps, and all of that, came to Canada in the 60's, and has been through that, and is like, "Yeah, the US treats Black people the worst."

KB: And he's seen a lot.

Celeste: Yeah.

KB: We're at a point now where more people are able to acknowledge that, and see it for what it is. And hear us in what we've been complaining about and saying has been happening to us, forever. So you know, we're just at this point where we all need to be gentle and listening to one another and working together. I feel like that's where we're at.

Nia: Is there anything else that you want to plug or final thoughts that you want to rap on?

KB: Just that I'm really blessed and proud and excited to be working with Celeste because she's one of the -

Celeste: Awwww! (laughs)

KB: - her work ethic... she's gorgeous!

Celeste: Oh, what! (laughs)

KB: And so freaking smart. It's just amazing.

Celeste: Awwww.

KB: I'm a proud papa.

Celeste: I'm blessed to work with you, KB.

KB: Well, thank you.

(laughter)

Nia: I don’t know if you could hear that, but Celeste just kissed KB on the cheek and it was adorable.

Celeste: (laughs) Awww! I think we really play off each other well. I mean because KB has the vision, and has seen so much, and just has a lot of wisdom, has a lot of knowledge, that I think we're enriching each other. Our teamwork together on this is enriching what Queer Rebels is.

KB: Seriously. I could not do this without Celeste.

Celeste: I couldn't do it without you! (laughs)

KB: The chemistry together makes this little company work. Makes it happen.

Celeste: Yeah. I think it's a shared vision and seeing the same voids that we want to fill.

KB: And having the willingness to put that work in, that it takes to make things happen.

Celeste: Oh yeah. I would have to say, it's a constant hustle.

KB: It is constant! Nonstop.

Celeste: It is called “hustle hard”.

KB: All the time.

Celeste: That's called... We were just in New York presenting Ancient Future films, and we were also working on three grant deadlines. And we also saw family!

KB: - and my family's in New York so -

Celeste: - and we also saw a whole festival.

KB: Six days of films, three deadlines, and my family, and -

Celeste: Oh heyyyy!

KB: But you know. It feels so good when it works, that we put the work in. Because it's worth it. It's really worth it.

Celeste: I think in a lot of ways we're so blessed. We love going and presenting this art, we love going and talking at colleges, especially in the middle of nowhere! Especially where it's a total culture shock. And it's like, oh my god! This is next to a sun-down town... oh Lord!(laughter)

KB: But the college kids are always so glad that we made it out there. It's just worth it. It's worth it and really important.

Celeste: It really is.

KB: I feel like we're doing some important stuff, and that just really feels good to me.

Celeste: I love that we're artists and we're creating our own work and we're supporting others and carving out a platform for queer and trans artists of color. We've probably worked with more than fifty five different folks.

KB: Oh, definitely.

Celeste: Probably higher than that. And just wanting to get these works out there, get them seen, and get a platform for them, for all of us. Because we need it!