The following transcript of

M.J. Frawley’s interview

on

Memories and Music (broadcast July 19, 1981)

was created by the Sudbury Public Library as part of a

Summer Canada Project

in 1982.

J

SUDBURY PUBLIC LIBRARY

.. . 1

"MEMORIES & NUSIC " INCO LTD . CIGr1

ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

INTERVIEWEE : M. J . Frawley POSITION :

DATE : INTERVIEWER: Gary Peck

TRANSCRIBER : TAPE Nm1BER :

Bonnie Savage 140

DATE OF TRAN : Hay 1982 sur-mER CANADA PROJECT

TIID1E : The Frawley family dating back to the 1880 ' s .

G. P . Hello, I ' m Gary Peck , your host on Memories and Music, presented Sunday at 1 :00 p . m. by Inco r'letals Company . This week my guest will be M. J . Frawley , and we ' ll be talking about the Frawley family one of Sudbury ' s early families dating back to the 1880 ' s . Join M. J . Frawley and myself Sunday at 1 :00 when Inco Metals Company pre ­sents Ivlemories and Music on Stereo 92 . 7 CIGM FM .

G. P . Today on r1emories and Husic our guest is H. J . Frawley . Mr . Frawley has been a resident of the community since 1915?

M. F. 1915 .

G. P . 1915 , and certainly the Frawley name is wel l known in the history of Sudbury , with , - was it John Frawley I think , - who was here really right at the very begin­ning • •••

tv'j . F . Yes .

G. P . • •• • one of the Frawleys . Your uncle . Before we begi n our interview with M. J . Frawley , we ' ll turn the program over to Doug HcLaughlin , our music host .

UmSIC)

G.P . M. J . Frawley is our guest on Memories and Husic , and welcome to the program Mr . Frawley .

H. F. Thank you .

G. P . Mr . Frawley , as I indicated at the onset , the Frawley name is a name , I think , well - known in the community , and certainly one of your uncles was here , really at the onset . Would you mind telling us how the family ·

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came to Sudbury area . I imagine it , - Sudbury was not the first community in Canada that they arrived at .

No , my grandfather , and his wife , and grandparents came over from Ireland and they settled in Washington . Then they went from Washington to Montreal , and subsequently from Montreal to Sheenboro , and he was , - started off as a teacher , a carpenter , and then he ended up in Sheenboro back teaching school , and he taught there for twenty- seven years until he died . My dad was named James , and he had a brother John , another brother P . S ., Patrick Simon , and a sister Bridget were living in Sheenboro at the time . My uncle John was working out of Ottawa for a firm of provisioners , taking orders , sending them back , and then they would be filled and delivered as the C. P . R. made its way across the west . When he came to Sudbuxy and he thought he would like to get into business but he couldn ' t find any property but he did happen to hear that the Jesuits had some property so he went to see them and subsequently he rented a property from them where the Royal Bank is today which would be at the c orner of Cedar and Durham . And he set up a first retail store outside of Cochrane ' s at that location in a tent , and he had as his partner a chap by the name of Tough , who was another old time ••••

T - 0 - U - G - H?

That ' s right , yeah ••••

Tough •

•••• and he was a prospector ••••

So the two of them were quite ••••

• ••• and my uncle also was a prospector and he did pros­pecting too .

Which uncle would that be?

Uncle John .

John .

So he knew this Mr . Tough , so they set up a business .

And you mentioned he had difficulty securing property . Did C. P . R. own most of the property?

Well C. P . R. had most of it tied up I guess the rest of it was bush , and maybe the only clear property that

FRAWLEY ••• 3

wouldn ' t entail a lot of work was this one that he got through the Jesuits ••••

G.P . Right .

M. F. • ••• on a rental basis .

G.P . The family tradition have it that he really came in with a pack sack on his back and started ••••

l'-1 .F . Well more or less I would say , yeah . , ~ 0; 1~ l' \. J

G. P . Did he select Sudbury , I wonder consciously or was it just because the railway was heading west and that it looked like there ' d be a future in travelling with the railway and setting up in certain communities .

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I think that ' s rather safe to say that because when he came here , - like Cochrane was here but of course Cochrane in those days was a great supplier f or the C. P . R. eh , being in the hardware business for my dad .

Frank Cochrane was here before John Frawley?

Yeah , I would say yeah .

Did J ohn Frawley or any other uncles or your father ever talk about early , early Sudbury and what it was like when they first arrived? Did John ever , for example ?

Not that much . No I never did hear him talk that much about it you know .

G. P . No . What kind of a business did he have ?

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Well my uncle P . S ., he set up a general store .

P . S . Frawley?

Yeah , right .

\'ihere was that located?

Right at , - where the Frawley Block is now , - at the corner of Elm and Durham , and my dad and my uncle John then , worked for him subsequently in that department store or general s t ore you might say . So they worked for him there at the beginning .

So John Frawley , as you mentioned , the fir st one here began in a tent ••••

Right .

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G. P . • ••• and do you recall what he was selling? General merchandise?

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Well general merchandise .

General merchandise ••••

Yeah right .

• •• • and then when P . S . Frawley arrived a little later , he set up a store on the corner . Then John and your dad worked with him at the time?

That ' s right , yeah .

How long wa s it before your dad and P . S . Frawley arrived? Would it be four years ?

Well yeah , my uncle John came here in 1884 and my dad carne in 1886 . It was two years difference ••••

Two years •

•••• and I ' d say P . S . came probably at the same time or maybe within a couple of years .

And your sister, - rather their sister?

\vell she would have come up probably when my dad came here to set up house for my uncle John .

Uncle John .

Yeah .

They probably came \I/ith the encouragement of John , I suppose , who was here and •• ••

Oh yes ••••

G. P . • ••• encouraged them to ••••

r1 . F . • ••• I would say so .

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M. F.

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• •• • come to the area .

Right , yeah .

VVhat was , - well if your uncle John who was the first one here , - what kind of an individual was he ? Was he a businessman really , and was that his interest through­out b is life ?

FRAWLEY ••• 5

M. F . Yes , he was a primarily a businessman. He was a pros­pector as well , and he viaS a very studious type of person and he was a supplier after those years he was a supplier for quite a few years for the Separate School Board , and representing different firms for school desks and school supplies that they used in the classrooms . Blackboards and what have you . So he was a real busi­nessman really .

G. P . And your other uncle , Patrick Simon?

1I1 . F . Well. •••

G. P . He ' s more a businessman than a prospector?

M. F . Oh yes , much more so .

G.P . Your father , was he a businessman as opposed to a pros ­pector as well, in other words were all the Frawleys in •.••

M. F . Yeah , well he was in business along with my uncles but then he left that and he \'lent and he got a farm . And he operated a farm on Lasall e Boulevard .

G. P . Where was that farm located?

M.F . Just this s i de of the New Sudbury Shopping Centre .

G. P . That far out?

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Yeah , and he had 320 acres there , and he kept that ' til about , - well they moved in here shortly before I was born , - let ' s see , in ' 15 .

In other words , he had a farm out there prior to 1914 , ' 15?

Right , yeah .

In that area?

Yeah .

Dairy farm , agricultural?

No , we had , - grew some crops , then they had sheep . That ' s what it was , - it ended up to be a dairy farm , -but he never had that many cattle per se , or he never operated as a dairy farm , but he went and sold it to somebody who did .

Who operated i t as a dairy farm ?

FRAWLEY ••• 6

M. F . Right .

G. P . Do you recall the name who he sold it to?

M.F . I think the name is Anderson 's ••••

G. P . Anderson ' s?

M. F . • ••• Dairy I think .

G. P . There were a number of farms out there weren ' t there?

1'1 . F . Oh yes quite a few . On both sides of Lasalle .

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Where was , - did your father have his house when he moved into Sudbury? Do you recall?

Yeah , 1,I1ell the first , - when they moved in here , - they lived , - there was Xavier Street , which is off Notre Dame , and then there was , the next street was Louis Street , where the Laberge Lumb er Company was . Now in between the two of them , there was a lane , they call Laberge Lane , and there were a few houses just off of Notre Dame on that Lane . They lived there to begin with . They lived there for a few years and then they moved over to Louis Street and that would be across ~rom , - right about where the Holiday Inn is today . It was across from the old original French Grey Nuns Convent , which is still there today . It ' s , - there ' s a few government buildings t here , government offices in that location .

That ' s south of St . Anne ' s Road?

That ' s south of St . Anne ' s Road .

Ye s .

Yeah .

Right , I think I know the location .

So the house would be very much in the location of the lobby of the Holiday Inn today .

G. P . mmhh , right . Did P . S . Frawley also live in that area? General area?

M. F . Yeah , he lived down the street . He lived right next to my uncle John .

G. P . And they were on what street?

FRAWLEY ••• 7

M. F . And they were on Notre Dame .

G. P . On Notre Dame ?

r1 . F. Ri ght .

G. P . Notre Dame would ' ve had a little differ ent course than it has today , would it not ?

M. F . Oh yes , yeah . Yeah , you came up , you came up by the old Cit y Market , you came across the tracks , and you veered a very sharp right , t hen you were on Notre Dame . That Vias the beginning of Notre Dame .

G. P . You grew up in that area then didn ' t you?

M. F . Yes , - well no ••••

G. P . No?

M.F . • ••• because they moved from there , then they moved over to Cedar Street , and we lived , - there was a row of what they call tenement houses , - and there was five at t ached houses , and that would be r i ght in the location where t he Capit ol Theatre is today . Well that ' s where I spent most of my childhood when I was going to s chool .

G. P . You ' d still have contact over , - along Notre Dame though with your uncles ther e I suppose ••••

M. F. Oh yes definitely .

G. P . • ••• because they remained in that area , did they?

r1. F . They remained there , yeah .

G. P . Did they call that area , the Flour Mill area?

M. F . No .

G. P . Borgia?

M. F . The Flour Mill is a way up ••••

G. P . North?

M. F . • ••• Borgia was across the tracks , so it was no specific name for it .

G.P . No specific name for it .

f1 . F . . No but it was close by the St . Anne ' s Church .

FRAl.:lLEY ••• 8

G. P . Right . We ' re going to break at this point , and turn the program over to our music host . When we come back , we ' ll continue our conversation about early Sudbury .

1'1 . F . Thank you .

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(MUSIC )

r1 . J . Frawley is our uest today on Memories and Music . Mr . Frawley , you were born in 1915 , and I think you indicated you , - were you born along Cedar Street or you moved t o Cedar Street when you were fairly young?

I moved to Cedar Street when I was fairly young , yes .

What was that , - what area was your house located? I think ••••

Well there was a row of t enement houses , - or actually 7.her e was about f ive in a row , - we were in about the cent er one , and that would be right where the Capitol Theat re is now because they were sold , - that property was sold , - and they were demolished , and they put up the theatre , - t he Capit ol Theatre there , - and started building it in 1929 , and completed it in ' 30 .

Houses came down at that time ?

That ' s right , yeah .

What was that part of Cedar Street like , when you were a youngster? You know today , it ' s r eally a commercial area isn ' t it?

Oh it ' s very , - that par t was a little bit commercial but as you went farther down ••••

Right .

• ••• from the corner of Lisgar on , it was very residential .

Entirely r esidential?

Right , yeah .

'!ho were some of the f amilies who lived along , along t hat commercial area , for example .

Well ah ••••

Near where you were living anyhow .

Near where Vole \!Jere living , it ' s prett y hard to ••••

FRAWLEY ••• 9

G. P . The Howey ' s for example , lived down at the far end did they not?

M. F . No I can ' t just remember now where they were .

G. P . No .

M. F . I know one of our neighbour ' s name was Perry . He worked for the C. P . R. , he was a locomtoive foreman or some ­thing ••••

G. P . Right .

I'l . F . • ••• for the C. P . R., and ••••

G. P . Well you mentioned there 1J.lere a few businesses in that area .

M. F . Yeah .

G. P . What would they be? Banks and ••• ~

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Well , just up the street-from us , there was a litt le flower shop , where there is .an optical shop today , called Rowan , R-O- W- A- N, florists , - he was there , and then where Boot ' s Drug Store is , that was the Acme Drug , and then previous to that it was the VJalton Drug . But I remember it best as Acme because it was Walton quite a few years before . Then just down the street f rom us , there was the fJi cCullough Block was right on the corner .

What corner would that be?

The IvlcCullough Block is right \I/here the post office is today . On the corner of Lisgar and Cedar .

And Cedar .

Right .

That ' s where t he , - that ~I/as the I>'lcCullough Block?

That was the McCullough Block .

What was in the McCullough Block .

Now in the McCullough Block there were apartments above , on the main level there was Scales and Roberts earlier , and then after them was one of the electric companies , -I think i t was Canadian General Electric , and next to them was a , - I remember it as a funeral par our , -Downey ' s .

FRAWLEY ••• 10

G. P . Downey ' s Funeral Home in that area?

M. F . Yeah, right , yeah that was right there , and next to them there was a very nice house there . I t was owned by a I'-lr . Beath who was the jeweller .

G. P . Jeweller . Are we now going up Elm Street?

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We ' re going , - we ' re in that block just down from the Capitol Theatre ••••

Oh I see •

•••• in between ••••

Along Cedar?

Right .

So Beath had his home along there?

Beath is in there yeah , and then there was another frame house there that was owned by , - latterly it was Simpson , - from Simpson to Dow .

G. P . vas Cedar Street paved? Do you recall it being a dirt street?

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Yeah , - ah no , - it was a ••••

You don ' t recall it as a dirt street?

No I don ' t , no .

And you wouldn ' t recall Elm as a dirt street ?

No .

Durham probably not as dirt ?

No .

What were some of the , - what about Elgin , - was that paved?

Pretty vlell those were main roads as I remember them ••••

So , that whole area was paved as you r ecall it?

Yeah , right .

Where did you att end school?

FRA\o/LEY ••• 11

M. F. I went to the Little Red School House , - that ' s the D' Youville Orphanage now . I was there I think the last year it operated . So I went there and then I want ••••

G. P . What year did it cease operating?

M.F. Well see I was , - 1915 , - I just started , - like you used to start school when you were seven eh , - so when I went there , i t ' d be ' 22 .

G.P . ' 22 .

M. F. I say it ' d be in that neighbourhood , ' 23 ••••

G. P . When it stopped as a separate , - or as a s chool?

M.F. School , right , yeah .

G. P . You called it the Little Red School House ••••

M.F. Yeah .

G. P . • ••• as a general term or was it referred to as the Litt le Red ••••

M. F. It was referred to .

G. P . It was , as the Little Red School House ••••

M. F. Yeah .

G. P . • ••• and it was red?

l'-'l . F . I can ' t say .

G. P . Can ' t remember?

H. F . No .

G. P . ' Cause as you know today , it ' s painted a cream colour isn ' t it?

M. F. Yeah , right .

G. P . You were there just the one year?

M. F. I was there the l a st year they ~ere in operation .

G. P . And then where did you ••••

H. F . Then I went to ••••

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G. P . • ••• transfer to .

M. F. • ••• St . Thomas , which is on Van Horne ••••

G. P . St . Thomas school?

M. F. • ••• which is not , - no longer there , - that ' s the fire hall is there now , - the new fire hall .

G. P . Oh , I see .

M.F. Right , and then they built St . Aloysius , which is up near the hos , - behind the St . Joseph ' s Hospital .

G. P . Wa s St . Thomas the separate school , - the main separate school prior to the build in of St . Aloysius ?

M. F . mmhh , right .

G. P . It was ?

M.F. Right .

G. P . And it was the one that followed the D' youville Orphan-age ••••

M. F. Right ••••

G. P . • ••• as we know it today •

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•••• yeah , right , and then I went to St ., - then I trans­ferred over to St . Aloysius , - and went there for the rest of my time in the seperate school .

Do you recall , - I suppose it was so long ago , - you wouldn ' t recall the teachers in that first school you went to , or do you recall much about the school ?

Oh yes , fairly , much there . There was quite a few Sisters at St . Joseph ' s in the school , and they had a convent behind the Church of Christ the King eh ••••

Right .

• ••• and so there was a Niss Price there , who , an old ••••

Sure .

I'-l . F . • ••• name in Sudbury . She was a teacher there ••••

G. P . Yes .

MoF . • ••• and I remember , - the Sister I remember very , very · much , is Sister Cecilia , which is an old name , and taught

FRAiVLEY .•• 13

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in this area for years ••••

Right .

• ••• and there was a Miss Kelly , I can remember her , Miss Kelly ••••

G. P . Right . That ' s another early name ••••

1. F . Yeah .

G. P . • ••• if it ' s the Kellys I ' m thinking of .

M. F . Right , right .

G. P . What was the school like inside? ltlhat were your class­rooms like?

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Well they were fairly good , fairly modern , and you had your regular blackboards and your seating was good . There vJas nothing backward about them at all .

No no no , but as we remember education at that ti e , everything was in straight rows and bolted down cast iron desks I assume ••••

That ' s right , yeah .

• ••• and people didn ' t get out of line too often I suppose ••••

No , no .

G.P . • ••• or they were ••••

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The only double seats that I remember was in the Little Red School House there . There were double seats in those , - in some of those classrooms .

Right , but no in the ••••

I'l . F . Not in the other area ••••

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In the other ••••

•••• and you were transferred to either St . Thomas or t o St . Aloysius . They were more modern then .

What did one do for entertainment as a youngster?

Well TJole , - there was hockey , and we made our own , - we skated on the creeks , - we didn ' t have the rinks ••••

No .

FRAWLEY ••• 14-

M. F. • ••• we used the creeks , and sleigh riding , and thi ngs like that , and what we call Kir kwood Hill , which is now where the YMCA ••••

G.P . That was Kirkwood Hill?

M. F. That was much steeper there . That was a real hill there

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and ••••

And you ' d slide down that ?

Ri ht , yeah, and right next to it , where the YMCA now is an open field , and that was ideal for the children , -the smaller children , - because they could go there with­out any problem at all . There weren ' t that many cars that you ' re talking about , there ' d be horse and wagons and sleighs and what have you in the win~er time eh?

mmhh .

M. F. But Kirkwood Hill was much steeper then than it is now .

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Right .

VIe were the older ones . We ' d be more brave . We ' d start at the tank and come down and hope we made the turn , and if we didn ' t , we ~ent straight on through down to Cedar and Larch Street eh .

ou hoped .

But fortunately if we made the turn then we ' d come right on down and we had a set of bob- sleighs and we ••••

That ' s 'f/hat I was wondering , if you had bob - sleighs ?

Yeah , we had bob- sleighs there and we could come down on the bob- sleighs and end up at Lawrence Drugs which is near the City Centre today .

mmhh . Your, - the area in which your uncles lived , -and in fact your f ather and mother lived for awhile , -is an area where there probably was a fair amount of flooding at times , was there not , in that general area with the creek overf lowing?

Not on our , - not there particularly ••••

No , not necessarily ••••

No .

• ••• where they are , but that general area?

FRAWLEY ••• 15

f1I . F . Yeah , well where it was primarily was at the foot of the hill where Church of Christ the King and St . Anne ' s Church is , that "'JaS a bad area there , because you had the creek coming along in there , and that ' s where you got your flooding . At one time , I remember going up to the second t ier on the Church of Christ the King property .

G. P . Of the , - oh , of the land itself?

~1 . F . Of the land itself yeah . In fact "'Ie lost a lot of personal property there . f'1y uncle had in the back shed where he lived up over Derno Electric ••••

G. P . Right .

f1I .F . • ••• and he lost a lot of personal things there from the family in that particular flood . Another area where it was bad , was down , - you mentioned Bor ia Street ••••

G. P . Yes .

M. F . • ••• in around there , ' cause the creek came through there again .

G. P. ·~ s you remember it , would you descr ibe the location of Borgia . They would be , - you said east of Notre Dame as we know it today . Around the C. N. station , in that general area?

M. F . Ivell if you came, - like as I mentioned , - if you came up the French Bank where the Surplus s tore was , and you , - right now in front of it , if you went across that intersection, - you ' d be running into City Centre . So you ' d be going right t h ough Bonimart , - Towers per se , you ' d go there for a short half block and then you would make a right turn , and that ' s Borgia per se , and it would be a block ••••

G. P . Right .

f1I . F . • ••• a longer block . But if before you did t hat , if you kept going straight , you went up over the Stobie tracks you vfQuld hit Not_ e Dame which ran parallel to Borgia Street and then it ended into Beech Street . It went up the hill past the churches .

G. P . Right . So that ' s the general Borgia area .

M. F . Yeah , so Notre Dame , it would be east of Notre Dame in those days .

FRAVJLEY • • • 16

G. P . We ' re going to break at this stage . We ' ll turn the program back to Doug HcLaughlin , and when we return we ' ll conti nue our conversation about early Sudbury .

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(MUSIC )

On Memories and Music today , our guest is M. J . Frawley . Mr . Frawley , you were talking a few moments ago , -during the break in fact , - about lemorial park , and we of course know that area as quite an attractive park in the city today , but it was always , - that vias always not th e case?

No , no , on that top there where Cambrian Ford had their garage behind the lane off of Larch Street , that used t o be the location of the Palace Rink . And the park , -Memorial park today , - was (unintelli gible ) below grade there , but it vias not , it was just full of alder bushes and paths and what have have you , and when we lived on Cedar Street and I went to St . Thomas School , we used to cut through the backyards and out onto Larch , and then cut through and come out at the Pal ace Rink and dO\m into the alder bushes and we ' d be out of sight then until we came up on Minto Street , and we ' d cross the bridge on Hinto and then go on through to Shaughnessy to St . Thomas school , which is Van Horne . That area was , - like I say , - was alders and the creek ran a l ong the border like behind the arena , the present city arena , and the creek _an along there , and after a few years , they straightened it up and cleaned it up and started to make it into a park and they used to use it for ball games and celebrations for July the first , May the twenty- fourth , and "'/hat have you , and that was the beginning of f1iemorial park .

So when we look at it today it certainly was very different in the past .

Oh , much more , much different .

Very different . Along Elm Street ther e must have been a number of changes over the years?

''/ell I can remember before the Mackey - they buil t the Mackey Block , - which when they built that it was five stories , that was the tallest building in the city .

Can you descr ibe the location of that f or perhaps some of t hem maybe who are • •••

That ' s right on the corner of Elm and Durham . That would be on t he • •• •

G.P . North- east corner?

FRAWLEY ••• 17

~1 .. • ••• north- east corner , and • •••

G.P. That was five stories and you indicated the tallest building in the community?

H. F . At that time when they finished building that yes .

G. P . Skyscraper .

1. F . Yeah , be ore that it was a singl e , spr ead out , and there was no basement .

G. P . What was located ther e before?

M. F . There was rocery stores, maybe a general store or something of that nature , but it was supported on pi les . And I can remember coming back from school and going in underneath , - you could go in underneath and wind away amongst the piles , - and then come back out onto right b~ the Montreal House , and then cut back into , -in the properties there and come at the back of our house , but that was Elm Street then , and then farther down of course , there was the Stobie Track right beside the Maki building property . The Stobie Track vms there with a trestle over the creek 'lhich came out of , - oh it went underground there under the buildings ••••

G.P . Ri ght .

M. F . • ••• and the trestle there , we used to f lip off that when we were kids , into the snow . That ' s how hi gh it was off of the base , - the bed , - of t he creek . Then t here was the Montreal House there , and just before the trestle there was a long wooden bridge over the creek which ended in the frame , - it looked like a garage , -and that ' s where my dad in the latter part of his i'Torking years , he was an agent for International Harvester and ~lassey Ferguson . But to get to his place you had to wall~ this , - over this bridge , - over the creek , and that would be behind the Frontenac Hotel right now .

G.P . Do you recall Jubilee Hall when it was in operation?

r-I . F . Oh yes, Jubilee Hall, yes . I can remember ••••

G.P.

M. F .

G.P.

M. F .

Very different from today ••••

Yeah .

• ••• what was Jubilee Hall , and really what did it look l ike?

Upst airs at one t ime they did have classes up there .0 ...

FRA 'ILEY ••• 18

G. P . Yes , prior to the high school I think .

1'1 . F . Right , and another time , then they had gym , - I can remember having the rings and the horizontal oars and things like that for you could participate , - and down below was church . It was a church there before they built the Church of Christ the King , which before that was St . Joseph ' s • •• •

G. P . Right .

1'1 . F . • ••• back then , that was where my sister , my eldest sister , was married .

G. P . So they refer to St . Joseph ' s as being located where?

M.F. Church of Christ the King .

G. P . The same property?

1. I . Right , yeah . See it was St . Joseph ' s for a , - it started off when it went from the Jubilee Hall then they built the basement and operated there for quite a few years , and then they put the super structure up , but then there were so many churches around , called St . Joseph ••••

G.P . I see .

rvl . F . • ••• that I think it was Bishop Scolard in those days . He made a decision and the oldest church who was named St . Joseph retained the name , and the others no matter where they were in the diocese changed . So that ' s why they changed from St . Joseph to Church of Christ the King .

G. P . Well that ' s interesting because I ' ve never heard that story before .

M.F. Yeah , right .

G.P . Jubilee Hall had a cupola on top . If I recall , in other words it was not just a f lat roof , but there was an adornment on the top in the middle . Do you recall it?

M. F. No , really ••••

G. P . No •

. F . . . .. no .

G. P . That must have been , - I ' ve seen it in photographs , -but those must have been very early photographs ?

FRAWLEY ••• 19

H. F . Yeah , that ' s where fhchaud ' s Drug was after . Was where Jubilee Hall was .

G. P . At that location?

H. F . Yeah , right , yeah .

G. P . Moving a little farther west along Elm Street , one of the buildings that certainly is very vivid i n early photographs , is what they refer to as the Golden Ball . Do you recall that store at all ? With the big golden ball on top?

M. F . Well I was across ••••

G. P . That would be on , - oh where Bright ' s Wine is located on ....

H . ~ . Yeah , right , it ' s near where Kresge ' s , - Bright ' s Wines , yeah , it was Golden Ball , and that was next door to what they call t he Huron Chambers .

G. P . Huron Chambers . Associated with Fournier was it at one time ?

M. F .

G. P .

l'1 . F .

G. P .

H. F .

G. P .

M. F .

G.P .

r'l . F .

G. P .

N. F .

No ••••

No •.••

.... 1 can ' t say it was Fournier ••••

What was located in the Huron Chambers?

\rJell there was a , - at one time , - there was a ladi es miliner shop ••••

Yes .

• ••• and then there were offices upstairs . I think there was l avqers if I ' m not mistaken , lawyers .

And then ••••

Next to it then , would be •••• was what you call Qual ity '1eats ••••

Ri ght .

• ••• there was a grocery store .

G. P . Right . Do you know Eddy Palmer?

M. F . Oh yeah , I worked wit h Eddy Palmer in his cigar store ~

FRAvJLEY •• • 20

G. P . I intervie\'led Eddy Palmer oh about two months ago , and he worked of course as you would know , at Qual ity Meats for •• • •

r . F . Right .

G. P . • ••• for a number of years . A f i ne individual .

M. F .

G. P .

r1 . F .

G. P .

M. F .

G.P .

M.F .

G.P .

Yeah , we worked together in United Cigar Store .

This is a small world .

Yeah .

Anchor ing Elm Street up at the far corner would be the Balmoral I guess ••••

Right .

• •• • on the corner , and across where we have the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce , what ' s the earliest structure you recall on that corner?

\Vell that was a bank ••••

Right .

M. F . • ••• was it Trader ' s or ••••

G. P . Sterlin or Standard?

M. F . • ••• St erling , yeah , standard yeah , r ight . That was a bank . I don ' t remember anything previous t o that ••••

G.P . No .

lIi . F . • •• • but then it changed over from that to the ••••

G. P . That building t hat ' s there today , do you have any recol­lections as to when it was built?

M. F. No .

G.P . That was always there as you remember it ?

I1 . F . Yes , to my memory , yeah • •••

G.P. Right .

M. F . • ••• it was always t here , yeah .

G. P . And across the way, of course , that C. P . R. land through there hasn ' t changed too much has it •• • •

FRA 'lLEY •• • 21

f<l . F . No .

G. P . • ••• I think the telegraph office went up in 1912 and the freight sheds were there and •• • •

M. . And then if you went over the tracks then of course that was Producer ' s Row. You might say that was Gamble Rob­inson , Swift Canadian , all the produce and meat packers .

G. P . lffhere was this now? You say ••••

rll . F .

G. P .

M. F.

G. P .

M. F.

G. P .

r1 . F .

G. P .

Right over the lavln , - right as you went over , - well you know where the Discount Furniture is?

Yes .

Now that of course was Carload Grocery ••• •

I see •

• • •• but if you drove in there •• • •

Right .

• ••• on your right hand side where there ' s a restaurant now , - they call it the Galaxy • •••

Yes .

~'l . • ••• that restaurant used to be Swift Canadian , or then t here was Gamble Robinson , and there was Terrell Fruit which is an old name here too , II' - E - R - R - E - L -L , - he ran fruits that he had too .

G. P . So you referred to that as Producer ' s Row .

M. F. Ri ght .

G. P . iVas that a t erm that was used?

r·1 . F . No ••• •

G. P . That ' s just your ••••

~1 . F • • ••• that ' s just my own .

G.P . Right , right . I wasn ' t aware of that development •• • •

f'I . F . Yeah .

G. P . • • • • through there .

N. F. Oh it went right on through to the old Round House .

FRAWLEY ••• 22

G. P . Right on ••••

M. F . . The C. P . R .

G.P . • ••• right on down that far .

I-1 . F . That ' s right , yeah .

G. P . And along that section , - well of course one 0 the prominent buildings along Elm , - v[ould be the post office .

H.F . Right , oh yeah , I remember that ' cause I lived right behind it really , and the post office , and up above was the library .

G.P . In the post office?

M. F . Right , yeah .

G.P . That would be , - would it occupy a whole floor? Was it a fairly large library?

f1 . F .

G. P .

M. F.

G. P .

f1 . F .

G. P .

M. F.

G. P .

r'l . F .

Fairly good size yefu'1 . I would say it woul d occupy half because the customs were upstairs .

Cust oms . Well when you look back you know , through the history of this community , if you were to think about maybe half a dozen buildings that were real l y a credit to the community , very attractive buildings , post office would probably , - would it be on your list?

That would be a stand out I would say .

Right . What would be some of the others , you know if I can , - you know if you can just sort of think back over the years . Some of the others that are no longer here .

\'Jell ••••

It ' s hard to , - certainly the post office would be up there near the top , - or at t he top , as far as you ' re concerned .

Yeah , that \vould be the top of the list there , as far as I ' m concerned . It ' s pretty hard to pick the others . There are so many .

There were a number of fine residences though ••••

Oh yeah .

FRAWLEY ••• 23

G. P. • ••• '!J/eren ' t there , that are gone? Across from the President hotel \Vas a hospital , - I ' m not sure whether ,

M. F . That was before .

G. P . Yes , but did you ever hear of people referring to it as a hospital ? Was it pointed out to you as a hospital?

M. F . Yeah , I remember that because I spent a lot of time when I \Vas on Cedar Street ••••

G. P . Right .

M. F . • ••• \flhen I \Vas going t o school in my younger days , I delivered a lot of things for the Drug Store , the Acme Drug , and that ' s where Dr . Howey was up above , - he had his offices up above , eh?

G.P . In that old ••••

r·1. F . In the Martin Building which is occupied now by Boot ' s , Reitman ' s ••••

G.P . Yes .

M. F . • ••• that was , - that Acme Drug . Now Dr . Howey had his offices up above , so did Dr . Arthur , so did Dr . Cook , so did Dr . Dales ••••

G. P . Right .

M. F . • ••• and ••••

G. P . So you deliver ed to ••••

M. F . • ••• 1 delivered t hem and you know , I knew Tom Doyle and r10rl eYRace , which are old time , - they both worked at the old Acme Drug eh , and I knew them .

G. P . Right . i'ie ' re going to have to break at this point and we ' ll return in just a few minutes and we ' ll wrap the program up .

G. P .

1I1. F .

(MUSIC )

Today on Memories and Music our guest has been M. J . Frawley , and f1r . Frawley you ' re retired from Muirheads however in a real sense you ' re not entirely retired .

No I ' still there on a consulting basis and looking after advertising and any other things that might use my expertise .

FRAWLEY ••• 24

G. P . Sure . You worked there for how many years ?

r'l . F .

G. P .

M. F .

G. P .

~1 . F •

G. P .

M. •

G. P .

f1 . F .

G. P .

M. F .

G. P .

f1 . F .

G. P .

M. F .

G. P .

I ' m going on t wenty- nine .

Twenty- nine years ?

Right .

Now , the Muirheads have always been located along Elm Street?

That ' s right they have .

You mentioned that at one time it was , - they were involved with books as well . To my indication ••••

Originally the building was built by parties by the name of Baiki e , Mr . Bai kie , and Mr . Gill , and l''lr . Baikie ran a book store , Mr . Gill ran a jewellery store , and Nr . Huirhead Senior , Scotty , he worked for Baikie and t hen when Bakie decided to retire , he bought the business off of him , and on his death , his son Bill took over the book , - the book s tore , - but at that point in time , it was gett ing into office supplies , stationary , and there always had been school supplies . And on the other hand , the other part of the building there vias Gill , rvlr . Gill , the jeweller , he sold the property to his right hand man Bill Dorsett , and who in turn sold out to T. M. Palmer from ••••

Right .

• ••• North Bay , and that ' s the history behind that building .

So after a period of time Muirhead ' s really got our of books .

Oh yes . Books t here , - the only thing t hey carry now in a book line that maybe dictionaries or things of that nature . Bibles and that .

Right . Wolfe ' s , - was Wolfe ' s r eally the main book store in the community?

Ah yes , she was .

Really?

Ri ght .

Throughout the years .

FRAWLEY ••• 25

M. F. Oh yes .

G. P . vlliat line of work were you involved in prior to going with Muirhead ' s?

M. F . Well prior to that I was with the Sudbury News Service for six years . I was a magazine and pocket book distributor , and then before that I was with the United Cigar Store for ten years , and I started off when I came out 0 school just prior to that , I was with Duncan Brothers . I wor ed in the garage and the stock room , and then I was out on the r oad as a salesman because I had , - they were right next door to where we lived on Cedar Street , and when I was going to school I used to vlork there on hol idays and Saturdays and what have you , so I 'v'lorked in there as a full - time ·ob but I stayed t here for about a year and a half .

G. P. So you ' ve always wor ked downtown?

M. F . Ri ght , oh yes , yeah .

G.P. You enjoyed that experience I would imagine .

t-1 . F . Worked and lived downtown . The only time I eve_ moved out was when t hey sold the property to build the Capitol Theatre . We had to move , and the only place you could get , was up on Bloor Street ••••

G. P.

M. F .

G.P .

1. F .

G. P.

M. F .

G. P .

M. F.

vlliich wa s •• ••

• •• • now to us that was about the end of the world ••••

A long ways away .

• • • • and we stayed there for three months . vJe rented a place , and then we ot back downtown , ' cause we moved L to t he , - what they call the Delioza Apartments ,­which is on Larch Street across from the old Jackson and Barnard Funeral Horne . We stayed , - I stayed there ' til I got married and set up an apartment of my own and I was in Toronto for a year and then came back and I ended up in the D' Aloisio up in a small apartment , my wi fe and I in the same location .

Back to tha t same general area?

Right .

The advantage of working downtown I suppose , and living downtovJn , is that you get to meet so many people .

Oh yes , it ' s particularly the ten years primarily at fi r st when I started at the United Cigar Store and then

FRAWLEY ... 26

G.P.

1'1 . F •

in with f1uirhead ' s there it was , - but i n the ten years I was at the United Cigar Store , a l l the boys , - Copper Cliff and you name it , - we knew them all because that was a prime stop there . The streetcar stopped t her e and the boys went t o work on the streetcars and every­thing else .

Just like a reunion ..•.

Right .

G.P. . ... in many ways .

M.F.

G. P.

M. F.

G. P.

M. F.

Yeah .

Well looking back over the number of years that , - and you ' ve lived in Sudbury all your life , and your father was here for many many years , - certainly the community has changed considerably . What have been some of the more dramatic changes that you ' ve witnessed or that you recall over the l ast few years ? Changes that r eally stick out in your mind . For example the developments in New Sudbury , you know , - you ment i oned at one time your dad had a farm out there .

That ' s right , yeah .

Probably never ever thought t hat t hat would be part of Sudbury .

No , because when , - in those days \'lhen I was young my uncle had property on Notre Dame Street , and he had a stable and he had a horse , and he kept the horse and rig and the sleigh , and him and his sist er every Sunday , it was a must they drove out into the country .

G. P. And that was in •...

M. F. And they drove out into t hat area and that there was the country , you know , and so that was quite a thing . Another thing was I ahlays used to say I ' d never live to see the day that they would remove the streetcar , -or the r ailway tracks out of downtown Sudbury . But t hat has come about . And then aga in the old streetcars that was quite the thin when they had those going , because I remember going in and out Copper Cliff , or out that way , they had in the winter time , they had t he old s t ove , coal stove goi ng in there , and throw in another bucket of coal or something to keep the people warm .

G. P. That was an experience in itself .

FRAWLEY ••• 27

M. F . That ' s right , because I lived up in the ~est end and we used to have to open the United Cigar Store at six thirty in the morning , and t here was no buses . The only thing you could get , you walked or we used to cut over the hill by the Caruso Club and try to make that old Copper Cliff street car to get you into work .

G. P . Right .

H. F . Or you walked from there , right through past the Sudbury Brewery and what have you .

G. P . So you ' ve enjoyed Sudbury?

t1 . F . Oh very much .

G. P . I would i magine very much so .

M. F . Yeah , yeah .

G. P . Well we ' re going to have to wrap the program up and I must say I always welcome the opportunity of interview­ing people and the Frawley name is a name that I think stands out in the history of Sudbury with Frawleys being here very early in the history of thi s community . So for a number of reasons , it ' s been a pleasure to have the opportunity of talking with you today . Thank you .

H. F . Well it ' s a pleasure to reminisce and , very much so .

G.P . Tank you .

r1 . F . Thanks .