Romulan Campaign Archive 2008

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 07:31 pm: Edit

Update on Battle 6.17, end of turn 4.

screenshot

After a long lay-off, Dale and I are back at it. Only got through one turn today, which was fairly uneventful. Opposing fleets maintained a range in the high teens, turning in and out on each other in sort of a zig zag, with the Feds launching another big drone wave. The Roms eventually broke left to open the range, and the Feds took a long range phaser shot on the SUP. The outstanding crew on the Genghis was telling, and the SUP took a total of 9 internals on two volleys through its down #1. Screen shot shows the end of turn 4, after EOT repairs.

Quick notes: - F-15s are running low on drones. Each has one Type-I left, and a full load of dogfights. - Fed photons are now available. No Fed plasma yet fired. - Roms have one S-torp available, and the remainder of the heavy torps are on the second turn of arming. - Roms are down to three fighters (on deck on the SUP, reloading).

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Jeremy,

I'm not fully familiar with your campaign rules but, I thought a ship had to have a crew quality rating of 1500 to be considered OC?

B^)

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 - 09:53 pm: Edit

George, see (U7.93). Outstanding Crews have a crew quality rating of 1400+. 1500 is the starting crew quality of a OC ship, per (U7.92). We each started the campaign with three ships with outstanding crews (at 1500 crew quality). Genghis has ended up below 1500 due to crew transfers and casualties, but at 1448, she still has an outstanding crew.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 12:36 pm: Edit

Dale and I have made a deal that he can substitute up to 2 SPA+ in his production schedule for KDRs. He really wanted to give them a try, but had no effective way to get the hulls. There is a good chance we will see one or two of those beasties in the next campaign turn. Pl-D racks should be a big help in drone defense.

Me, I look forward to several FFBs and my prototype DW next campaign turn.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Have you and Dale agreed that Dale can do that in every year's production, or just one or a couple year(s)?

Only reason I ask is because historically, the Romulans didn't get very many D5 hulls throughout the course of the war (I think the total was only 3, but it may have been 1 or 2 more than that...see KDR ship description and history leading up to the battle at Oxvind V).

Even in a free campaign, unless there is actually Klingon and Romulan players who are allied, it seems to me you'd want to limit the number of Klingon hulls the Romulans get. Initial allotment based on my knowledge of "history:"

1 C9 3 D7C 4 D7 (1 received late...Y182) 9 D6 (all types) 3(4?) D5 15 F5 (all types) 12 E4 1 T6

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 04:54 pm: Edit

3 D5 in exchange for the 3 Sparrowhawks.

And I think the history says neither got a good deal in the trade.

And I am near positive it is 2 (or maybe 3) tugs.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Worry not Fed fans. Dale only gets two KDR hulls as subs (in the same or different years, but the max number is limited to 2). Our original intent was no additional Kestrels, but the starting year of Y169 precluded the inclusion of the KDR (introduced much later) and I both want to see the historical unit get some play.

I think the KDR is a pretty good trade for a standard SPA+. Two Pl-S and two Pl-D racks give him a good squadron support unit, combining extra long range plasma and short range drone defense, at the expense of Pl-Fs. Of course, the downside is limit variants (and no modularity) should he need them. In small numbers, I don't think it will make a huge difference, but I do think its a good build for him.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 07:17 pm: Edit

I can always get at Kestrels by spending my "flex points", but truth is, that's a waste of them in most cases. It's tough to throw away enough flex points to buy a CON out of hide, just to get a different brand of CW for "flavor".

2 KDRs is all I need for flavor. They aren't BETTER in the big scheme of things than a SPA+, just different.

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 08:05 pm: Edit

Rich, F&E OOB gives the following: 1 KC9R 3 KRC 3 K7R 6 KR 3 KRM (would have been D6->KR originally) 2 KRT 4 K5L 8 K5R 3 K5S (no idea if these were originally F5S or not) 12 K4R

With some D4s and F4s not shown and the 3xKDR being exchanged during the war. The Romulans are capable of building a production line for more KDRs (though it's hard to see why they would).

On-topic: Nice to see. The two subs sounds like a great way to allow a little experimentation with a different class.

By Joe Stevenson (Alligator) on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 08:47 pm: Edit

Quote:

The Romulans are capable of building a production line for more KDRs (though it's hard to see why they would).

I'd only want to if I could make KDR carrier variants.

Why you ask?

To get around the wacky 8 factors of the SPB.... it makes the fighter equivalents work out easier with an SUP-B or CNV

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 09:46 am: Edit

In fleet action the KDR is clearly better than the SP-A+. Saying they aren't is a bunch of hoohey.

Strategically the SP-? is obviously better.

I agree its a bit of a wash, but the poor Roms need as many heavy torps as they can find.

By John Carroll (Jcwl) on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 10:39 am: Edit

Jeremy and Dale,

More battle updates less F & E talk...

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Larry,

I disagree with you (and agree with Dale). The KDR is simply different not better.

It is true that the second plasma-S plus the short range power of the D-racks are nice, but to pay for that, the KDR:

1. Has less battery power 2. A higher cloak cost 3. Less P1 4. P3 arcs that aren't as useful 5. smaller hull and tracks - fewer "free" hits 6. More vulnerable to Mizia against its heavy weapons 7. Is slightly more expensive

And there might be more...that's just off the top of my head. All of the positives and negatives, when examined in totality, suggest a unit that operates differently, and may be more or less desirable depending on the battle, but cannot be generally seen as "better" than a SpA+.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Another thing to keep in mind is the size of our typical battles. 5-6 ships is the norm. If you packed a bunch KDRs into a big fleet, the S-torps would start to really add up. Biggest difference for our purposes might be in Rom base assaults (where big torps are critical). But we're only talking two ships across the entire Rom fleet. Pretty small percentages.

The Roms typically have to resort to something bigger to get pairs of S-torps (FH, SUP, etc) on a single ship, so the KDR (and the KRB) is a real economical way to get big torps in numbers. So yeah, its an advantage of the design. As are the D-torps. And with other ships to cover it, it probably is a force multiplier. But so are the SPF and SPJ. I see this a no different (actually less obscene) than those two ships.

Bottom line, two KDR's is not a huge deal, but they will help the Roms if used properly. Of course, I will seek to abbreviate their life as much as possible.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 12:57 pm: Edit

John, we have tenative plans to continue battle 6.17 on Saturday or Sunday. Dale is also trying to get Far Stars turn orders processed, so we might only sneak in a turn or two.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 08:56 pm: Edit

Battle 6.17 to continue Sunday, noon EST.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 02:46 am: Edit

Somtime around noon anyway. One needs one's coffee...

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 03:07 pm: Edit

Just once, I'd like the narrow salvo to miss.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Battle update. Got through one more turn of 6.17 today. Feds fired another long range salvo, hitting the SPC this time. Again, the narrow salvo of proxes from the CVB hit (now 3 for 3!), as well as one standard and two proxes from the destroyers. Between the photons and the follow up phasers from range 25, two warp, a Pl-F, 2 Ph-3s and a cargo hit on the SPC (pretty amazing).

Following the shot, the Roms turned back in the pursue the Feds, who turned off to the right to reload. Half the F-15s landed early in the turn to reload. The Roms skillfully cut through the drone wave with some well placed T-bombs. At this point, there are six more drones in the air between the fleets, which are about 20 hexes apart.

Next turn, the Feds will be running to load the first turn of photon charges, while the Roms will finish loading on their remaining plasmas. Might turn out to be an uneventful chase, but things will get exciting by turn 7.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 10:56 am: Edit

In Squadron action the increased vulnerability to mizia is almost meaningless. Look at the battle history.... You either take no internals, 3-5 internals, or enough internals that the Fed fighters are going to come mug you if you don't stop arming weapons and run away. (maybe not disengage, but stop fighting)

I agree with Jeremy 100%. The KDR is a great ship. The Rommies need the help. Feds are just too brutal in squadron and fleet engagements.

Send the KDRs against the CVB and CVAs. Those F-14/F-15s might just get a

surprise if the D racks go into defensive mode and suddenly they are facing 8 some plasma Ds when they were planning on mugging something with their gatlings.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Then the F14s drop chaff, het and come back 8 or so impulses later...

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Exactly. Which is why the D-racks are more for intercepting SOME of the redonkulous number of drones the F15s can chuck. Personally, I tend to use G-IIs to engage Fed fighters, since the F torps ingore chaff...

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Yes, Pl-Fs are far better at getting a fighters attention.

That said, getting a fighter to drop chaff in the face of a Pl-D may not be a bad thing depending on the situation. If it buys time for your weapons to recycle, then it is probably worth it.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 01:29 pm: Edit

6th Fleet Operations Report

Federation shipbuilding underway for completion by Y175 (this is the current "plan" - other ships may be converted as the strategic situation warrants):

Complete NCV Ranger Complete NAC Spruance Complete DW Oldendorf (Prototype) Complete FFB Gunter Prien Convert DNa+ Star Empire to DNG Convert CC+ Constitution to CB Convert FFGa Arleigh Burke to FFB Convert FFGa St Vincent to FBE Transition VF-2 to F-18s and consolidate with VF-82 as VF-2 Bounty Hunters for service on Ranger

Outstanding Challenges: 1. The Federation 6th Fleet has insufficent scouts to support eight operational battle squadrons and one independant survey ship. The Romulans possess a qualitative scout superiority that places many Federation squadrons at a disadvantage in a heavy EW environment. 2. Julius Caesar, Star League, Enterprise, Scharnhorst, Kearsarge, and Prince of Wales all require upgrades to be brought up to current fleet standards (CVA+, DNG, CB, NCLa+). This will require critical heavy units to be place in reserve, potentially stalling any Federation advance in the Romulan territory. 3. The carrier escort force remains barely adequated to support the operation of a heavy carrier, four strike carriers, and a light carrier. Frigate conversions will be

available to cover near term or emergent shortages, but as frigate hull inventory falls due to attrition, the need for war destroyer escorts will increase. Additionally, the majority of the existing escort force lacks full Aegis but current escort inventory allows no opportunities to place ships in reserve for refit. Additional pressure to accelerate full Aegis conversion may be exerted by any future Romulan carrier production. 4. The CVS/CVB ships, forming the backbone of the carrier force are beginning to show their age. While they remain excellent fighter operations platforms, they do not possess the power to maintain fleet speeds and EW in the evolving combat environments. More powerful carriers, exemplified by ships like the new Ranger can bridge this tactical gap, and allow existing CVS hulls to be converted to the CB standard, preserving the number of available command hulls. The CF Wolverine has been identified as under-utilized and may be a candidate for fast carrier conversion. As the transition to new carrier types occurs, it may be necessary to transition some existing F-18 squadrons to heavy fighters now under development. The CVB Nimitz will be retained as long as possible to support its unique F-15 fighter group.

Strategic Priorities: 1. Hold the existing battle line, allowing no repeated penetration by the Romulan Fleet into the Federation interior. 2. Eject the Romulan fleet from the Federation border area and launch a counteroffensive in Romulan space. 3. Upgrade the fleet to a standard capable of matching or exceeding developments in Romulan shipbuilding technology and production.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Cool report, Jeremy. It's almost like you were in the Navy and knew something about this subject. ;)

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 03:19 pm: Edit

Jeremy

Was wondering if as more DWs come on line will you be considering converting the DDs and variants to DEs to help solve the escort problem.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Maybe. There are two DD+ hulls out there that are prime candidates for conversion to something a bit more versitile. Priorities at this point are probably DEA/DAR, DDG+, SC+. The problem with the DE is it has the same speed problems the CVS has, and the SC+ is almost as expensive as an NSC. May still convert to DEs though, just to help the near term shortage in escorts so I can get the others refited to Aegis. DDG appeal will go up in a few turns when fast drones start showing up.

Of course, there is a certain appeal to hanging on to them as DD+ hulls for future base assault or defense battles. I like my DDLs though, so if I'm going to convert

something, the DD+s are the most likely victums.

I'm planning a number NACs and NSCs over the next few turns, as well as a DWA or two. That should help both areas quite a bit.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 03:57 pm: Edit

An alternative for the CF is the CFS from I think CL26 or 27 if you dont use it as a carrier

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Doesn't everything with Aegis get a free software upgrade on Jan 1 Y175?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Jim, full Aegis requires a refit, which we have always treat in this campaign as requiring yard time. Based on the SSDs, it is definately not free. I realize in F&E and some campaigns its just sort of hand waved away, but unless I've missed something in one of our converstions, Dale and I haven't elected to do it that way.

An alternative might have been to allow the refit across the board with the Feds just paying the total BPV, but we haven't discussed that option. The reality is, even if I wanted to, I cannot afford to give every escort Aegis right now without surrending some of the above conversions, and I'm not likely to have the funds for across the board refits for several campaign turns. The truth is, facing what amounts to small numbers of large plasma torps, having lots of full aegis ships doesn't help much (it would be huge vs the Klingons). The biggest advantage is in the world of early seeker identification, and in many cases, one ship per group will probably be enough. So, for now, my goal is to get enough full Aegis ships out there to give each carrier group better seeker identification. I'll have two ships (an NAC and the FBE) in Y175 and I should have a couple more in Y176 (likely an NAC and DWA). So it should not take too long to get there.

I haven't talked to Dale about making this a software upgrade (just paying the cost as available without a refit away from the front), so maybe we'll adjust, but for know, that's the scoop.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 06:39 pm: Edit

For now that is.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 03:02 am: Edit

The NSC is better against Romulans than SC+ due to power. SC+ is competitive on the western front due to number of channels. However, the NSC is a very big ship that will take up a lot of command points. Probably the DD hull is best used as an escort.

I am pretty sure that full aegis is just a software upgrade and is part of the Y175

refit, though it is not free in BPV terms. I will try to find documentation for this. I don't think there are any cases where there are other SSD differences between the full and limited aegis versions of an escort that wouldn't otherwise be part of the Y175 refit anyway. OTOH if you are treating the Y175 refit as requiring yard time...

I do agree on the limited usefulness of full aegis vs. plasma, however after Y175 you will be facing increasing numbers of plasma-D and you will wish you had it, for ID purposes if nothing else.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 03:20 am: Edit

Yes, the Y175 refit requires yard time. As it stands, any refit requires yard time. At this point, it is not likely to change in the campaign, as there has been a lot of "water under the bridge".

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 03:24 am: Edit

As for Romulan build schedules, I have two worked out and really need a third. One centers around building a KVL "out of hide"; the other centers around building one of my two SPAs as "heavy hawk", as is allowed, and make it a SUP-B. Another obvious build would be the FHT w/BP, but as Jeremy hates that ship, and has been so accomodating with the KDR issue, I'm not inclined to build it except in desperation. (Being forced back a line would probably count as desperate straights.)

I will provide more detail later; but as the "Attacker" in an Admiral's Game, I always have to wait till the battles are done, as any ships that retreat/disengage must spend the following turn in Reserve (and this is the ideal time to refit/convert them).

I basically didn't know which ships would get their "plus" refit until I knew which ships were forced off the line the following turn, for example.

Now that my ships are all refitted, for the most part, this is not as large an issue, but still has an effect.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 07:40 am: Edit

Quote:

I do agree on the limited usefulness of full aegis vs. plasma, however after Y175 you will be facing increasing numbers of plasma-D and you will wish you had it, for ID purposes if nothing else.

I disagree. Limited aegis *cannot* identify plasma. Full aegis can automatically (or reliably) ID plasma at range, which is an incredibly useful ability. Rom fleets

can usually lob enough plasma to exceed a scout's ability to detect at range.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 08:14 am: Edit

Well, I didn't find anything proving that limited -> full aegis is merely a software change, but D13.24 specifies it is part of the Y175 refit.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 09:30 am: Edit

Gents, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying about Aegis. I'd of course love to have the fleet fully refitted, and its clearly better to have it than not to have it. Problem is, right now (as of the start of Y175), I have an escort force of 11 ships, two of which have Full Aegis. To refit the rest, even if yard time was no factor, I'd need 87 RPs (BPV) to make it happen. That would mean, in effect passing on almost every one of the conversions above. Or put another way, no DN+ to DNG upgrades and no CC+ to CB upgrades. As I see it, as useful as Full Aegis is, is not so useful that I should leave my command ships obsolecent to get it.

Plasma ID has yet to be a really problem in the campaign. I can't think of any cases where I really got spoofed by ambigious plasma targeting. In the size fleets we're dealing with, its unusual to see more than 10 or so plasmas on a given turn, so getting them all ID'ed isn't much of a problem, especially for the SC+. But, if Dale switches to carriers, like the SUP-B he mentioned above, that will likely change. The need for Full Aegis ships will increase, and I may have to adjust.

On a related subject, one of the things that has played into my shipbuilding decisions is planning for some key future builds. The most significant - BCG in Y177 and BCF Y178 - cost more than I have available in those years without saving up for them. So, in my spreadsheet, I've kept a running economic tally of expected funding in those years, based on current and planned construction, so I can keep enough points "in the bank" so they can be built on time.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 10:28 am: Edit

Jeremy how do you determine the amount of income you will receive from turn to turn?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Ed, its a fixed amount, with a small variable amount from survey work. The fixed part of the economy (with one increse to off set growth in ship costs):

Y169-Y175 : 550 RPs a turn. Y176+: 600 RPs a turn.

In addition we can gain up to 18 additional RPs if we hold a survey ship out for a

survey assignment. I've been using a CLS. If a ship is assigned, we roll 3 dice at the end of the turn and take the total. Those RPs are added to the available RPs that turn. So far, I've made 28 RPs on survey over three turns, which may not sound like much, but it does add up.

550+ RPs per turn sounds great, but we also have a fixed production schedule (with a few substitution rules) that must be built. For example, this is a quick review of the Feds:

Y170-175: 2xNCLa, 2xFFG, +160 BPV (550 BPV total) substitutions: can replace NCLs with DDs can complete 1 NCL as a NCA in Y175 can replace FFGs with a DW and FFB in Y175 (prototypes)

Y176+: 2xNCLa, 2xDW, +166 BPV (600 BPV total) substitutions: can complete 1 NCL as a NCA each turn can complete 1 DW as a HDW each turn can replace 1 NCL with DDX each turn can replace 1 DW with FFX each turn

So, as you can see, there are not a lot of flex points available each turn, and they have to be used for not only special ship construction (DNs, CC, etc), but conversions, refits, and fighters. The Roms, with there more expensive ships, actually have fewer flex points per turn, but have the ability to make one of their two required SPA builds a heavy hawk. Works out as a nice balance that way. Funds get tight quickly, but Dale and I did this to ourselves deliberately.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 05:36 pm: Edit

I've placed your old Archives from July-December, 2007 into a group Archive.

Jean WebMom

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Thanks Jean.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 03:18 pm: Edit

After much delay, game starting back up today. Of course Jeremy's having brown-outs in his area, so we'll see how much we can get done.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Well, that was fun, but at least it's over.

The Roms swam through "the kitchen sink" at speed-27 on Turn 6, getting poked by Swordfish drones and harrassed by drones and Plasma-Fs. Nothing but shield

damage was scored, the #5 on the KRB was reduced to 4 boxes. Clawing for every inch of ground, the Roms ended the turn at range-11 from the bulk of the Fed fleet, and had launched a plasma swarm on 6.30 (5x S, 1x G). Much of this was psuedo, but of course the Feds didn't know this.

Having been run up to the map edge, the Feds took "The Shot" on 7.1, hitting with EVERY. SINGLE. PHOTON. At range-11, the proxes/standards did over 60 internals on the SUP-A when combined with ph-1s. The Roms were on the last hex of the oblique, so they chose to fire early lest I turn in and get behind them or force a head-to-head suicide march.

The Romulan fleet then turned IN, bulling the Fed up against the map edge. At this point it was a near-suicide run, but I was willing to lose this ENTIRE GROUP to kill that !%!$^!#$^!@~#%@ CVB.

To cut to the chase, the Feds, having emptied their guns, ran off the map to avoid M.A.D., and lived to fight another day, having crippled the SUP-A and killed more than half its fighter group. The only meaningful damage the Roms inflicted was the loss of the Armor on the ECL; the rest of the damage it took was easily repairable, but the armor loss means it will probably remain in reserve next turn.

A Romulan victory, but an extremely painful one. Jeremy flew a GREAT game, and his dice luck made up for any prior "photon whiffs"... if a torpedo missed, it was few and far between.

For me, it was all about patience and just making like Rocky Balboa as the Feds sniped and wailed away at long ranges at my fleet.

ADRIAN...!

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 06:28 pm: Edit

arrrgh... I thought you guys had called it for the day at the end of turn 6. (saw you both save and everyone was leaving)

I SOOO wanted to see that turn 7.

B^)

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 06:32 pm: Edit

I could have accepted MAD and turned in, but looking at the situation strategically, it was better to badly cripple the SUPA and escape to fight another day than to get the CVB blown up.

Dale had me in a bind with good positioning. If I overloaded and he turned off, I'd be left a slow speed with no ability to chase and fire. If I loaded proxes or standards, he could turn in, and outgun me at range 5-8.

Bottom line, I could have stayed, and killed three Rom ships (the SUP, SPF and KRB), but I would have certainly lost the CVB, and potentially all three DDs along with the crappy ECL. I decided to not take that kind of gamble just yet. We will not know if this was the right decision until the next campaign turn.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 06:33 pm: Edit

George, aside from the big shot on impulse one, it was a non-event. The Feds were off map a couple of impulses later.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 06:34 pm: Edit

Wait...that means Dale gets the win and the Feds fail to push the line back. Because the next two games look like walkovers (one apiece)

Or am I missing something?

B^)

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 06:43 pm: Edit

Jeremy, have you considered reversing the roles of your ECL and an SC, converting the SC into an escort and the ECL into a scout?

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 06:44 pm: Edit

There's many a slip 'twixt a cup and a lip, Sentinel. ;)

We'll see how it goes. I had people telling me this last battle was untenable for the Roms - and I admit it DOES suck getting nailed with proxes at range 12+ while trying to swim through HUGE drone swarms just to get a shot. But for the Roms, it was all about sucking it up and taking the pain, in exchange for the moment when I finally got the Feds up against a map edge with plasmas hot.

That said, in terms of losses, the Feds definitely got the better end of this stick.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 06:46 pm: Edit

Sheap: Jeremy's choice is probably influenced by the Poor Crew on said ECL. ;)

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Campaign webpage updated with Battle 6.17 results, including crew quality experience points and battle stars. Link above in the topic header (if you've viewed the webpage lately, you may need to refresh).

Two battles left in the campaign turn. Dale only needs one more win to stay on this defense line. I need to fight hard to either get cripples, or force individual ships to disengage. No more big carrier groups, just lots of raw firepower. Should be fun!

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 09:40 pm: Edit

Strategically, I think if Jeremy actually wanted to win the defense line, he would have pushed the battle to high intensity and destroyed the Superhawk (at the probable loss of the CVB). But he probably does not really want to win the defense line and have to push into Romulan space, fighting a zillion Romulan bases and dealing with being on the wrong side of the retreat-reserve rule. In a "single sided" campaign where pushing the Romulans out would mean victory, fighting to the death here would have been an obvious choice.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 11:23 pm: Edit

It would do Jeremy little good to win the defense line and advance with a fleet that would only be pressed back... breaking the back of this CVB group would have gone a long way to lessening the Fed war machine for future turns.

The question now is, which battle to play next? 6.19 promises to be brutal and probably short. 6.24 may be a long sub-hunt style battle.

The Roms need one more win to hold the line, but even so, cannot afford to disengage in either, considering said ships will be forced into reserve next turn.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 04:28 am: Edit

Wow.

Haven't seen a Fed 'Hail Mary' in a looooong time.

Nice fight.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 10:51 am: Edit

Its really bad to fire the photons on Impulse 1.

I agree with Jer deciding it was time to go. Dale had him in a bad position.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 11:07 am: Edit

Yeah, I generally hold photons until I "see the whites of their eyes", or the enemy fires and turns off. In this case, if I wanted to bail out, I had to fire immediately. To keep him in arc, I was probably going to need to turn in on imp 2, which would have committed me to a blood bath.

Hindsight might prove this to have been a bad decision, and perhaps I should have accepted a battle of annihilation, but from where I sit today, I think it was a good decision.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Monday, February 11, 2008 - 11:57 am: Edit

Bump.

And recommend 6.24 next...closer fight.

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 05:09 pm: Edit

4 weeks since the last bump.

AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGH!

I need my fix!

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Jeremy and I are trying to arrange some time this weekend.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Did anything ever get done or plans to that effect for anytime in the near future?

Just curious...and I also wanted to be the one to be your 1500 post on this thread...

B^)

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 04:49 am: Edit

Monthly bump

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 10:45 am: Edit

I miss this one so much, it gets a double bump...

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 09:07 pm: Edit

Guys, we haven't given up on it, but I admit, running the Far Stars has taken up most of my SFB time of late. Combined with that dreaded Real Life(tm) stuff, we haven't been able to progress on this recently.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 08:08 pm: Edit

6.19 has begun!

By John Carroll (Jcwl) on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Hallelujah, I think...

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 09:18 pm: Edit

The Roms came out of the gate at speed-20, 6 ECM. They launched ECM plasma before entereing firing range and adopted EM also, netting 13 ECM total in an effort to blunt the "unanswerable Prox shot".

The Feds took "The Shot" on 1.19 at the K7B Finality, firing narrow salvos of proxes off both NCLs, and a narrow salvo of standards off the Enterprise. All shots hit on a 1-2 due to ECM; none of the narrow salvos hit. They fired, rolling a 6, 3 and 6 - no hits.

At that point the Feds took a sharp turn and headed for the map edge,

announcing disengagement. The Roms were undamaged, fully loaded, and closing.

After discussion, the Feds also decided to disengage in 6.24, since they no longer had any ability to push the Roms off the defense line. The Feds held the line, and the Roms managed not to be completely repulsed. Strategically, it was a dead tie, 4 to 4 out of 8.

Jeremy and I will work on our next strategic turn orders and press on with the next turn, hoping to fly another battle SUN or MON...

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 11:35 pm: Edit

It's kind of a benchmark of our battles in this campaign now that a lot is decided on the inevitable, early narrow-salvo photon shot by the Feds. The last couple battles they hit hard early, caving in the shield on a cruiser, and throwing Rom forces into disarray. This time it didn't pan out, but remains a difficult dillema for the Romulans, and one they can't answer for at range-30.

Likewise, Fed frustration with Romulan high-EW levels continues.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Saturday, May 24, 2008 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Romulan Builds/Construction for T6:

The Romulans built a Royalhawk to act as a command ship, and a SPC+ to replace scouts forced into reserve. A pair of Seahawks were built to fill retreat slots, while the only two remaining Romulan K5Bs were converted to KFRs. A pair of SKAs were converted to SKFs to help fill empty scout slots, and the SKE Keeper received its refit to gain full aegis (SKEA).

I had originally wanted to build a replacement KVL this turn, but that was pure whimsy, and with the temporary loss of both the SUP-A and the entire CON fleet, I needed more hulls on the line. I'm not a big fan of the KFR, but this is the time to give it a whirl, and hope it is worth the investment.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Saturday, May 24, 2008 - 10:40 pm: Edit

Posting for Jeremy, since we talked... even though I'm starting to feel like I'm talking in an empty room here. ;)

Federation builds: NCV Ranger NAC Spruance DW Oldendorf FFB Gunter Prien DNa+ Star Empire ->DNG CC+ Constitution ->CB FFGa Arleigh Burke ->FFB FFGa St Vincent ->FBE

FFGa Theodore Roosevelt ->FFRy+ FFL+ Togo -> FFSy+ FFL+ Rommel -> FFLy+ FFGa Guderian -> FFGya (The "y" is the no cost Y175 refit. Adds a reload of drones only)

We've compared notes and seen what the next turn will look like. Jeremy will update the page tomorrow, but it looks very similar to this last turn. The Roms fielded 5 battle fleets and 3 retreat fleets out of neccessity. The weakest of these fleets ran into the CVA Julius Caesar group, so that won't be much of a battle - the Roms will most likely retreat there.

That makes four Rom retreats, and four battles... of which the Roms must win three to stay on the line. I think three of the battles favor the Roms, if only slightly, and the fourth is a dead heat, as far as we can tell. But as I'm fond of quoting, 'There's many a slip twixt a cup and a lip'. We'll see! Stay tuned.

By John Carroll (Jcwl) on Saturday, May 24, 2008 - 11:30 pm: Edit

I am just glad to see some action here again

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 01:55 am: Edit

Go Feds.

Glad to see the games are going again. Very fun reads.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 09:17 am: Edit

New Campaign Turn Posted!

Dale and I will be getting battle 7.20 started tomorrow. First time I've gotten to fly a CB in a very long time, and the first time I think I have ever actually faced a Royalhawk. Should be fun.

As far as Fed strategy, I could have put some more power on the line this turn, but I really wanted to get the Star League and the Enterprise into the shipyard for refits. I knew the Roms would have a number of ships in reserve this turn, so I figured I'd never get a better chance. At some point, I need to get the Ceaser into the yard as well, but I haven't figured out how I'm going to do it.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 12:17 pm: Edit

7.20 is the battle we figure is closest to an even match. So of course we're

starting with that first.

This'll be my chance to see how the HFA performs. For those not in the know, it's a Star Fleet Times ship, available in the archive off the website. Basically, it's a Falcon with the "King Eagle" type upgrade - 30 warp, 36 mauler batteries, 2x F-torp, and 30-point square shields.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 03:49 pm: Edit

7.20 has begun!

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 04:02 pm: Edit

Jeremy's internet keeps fizzing out and we can't get through any IA without losing

the connection.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 06:38 pm: Edit

We got through T1 and are in the thick of T2. This one is... interesting.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 07:56 pm: Edit

T1: The CS+ Prometheus unleashed 4x standards at range, nailing the SKF with two, doing 14 to the #2 shield after reinforcement.

Massive phaser fire then evaporated the ECM plasma protecting the Heavy Falcon Mauler on 1.32.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 08:02 pm: Edit

T2: Feds fire 8 OL photons and 10 ph-1 at the HFA, hitting with 7/8 photons and a good whack with the ph-1s, leaving the HFA a wreck.

The K7B Valiant returns fire with 2x S, 2x F bolt, plus 5x ph-1 at range-10 at the DDL Ghengis. Both S's hit, and moderate internals are scored. The DDL attempts to HET away to avoid Mizia, but breaks down and tumbles.

Drones later kill the HFA, while a t-bomb from the K7B Valiant wipes out 6 scatterpack drones.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 09:43 pm: Edit

Was the Heavy Falcon Mauler the HFA?

Has the DDL Ghengis survived (had to read C6.55 to see what effect tumbling has)?

This battle certainly does sound interesting. Again I thank both of you for the effort you are putting in to post the results of these battles.

By Jonathan Biggar (Jonb) on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 11:38 pm: Edit

So much for having fun with the HFA.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 12:17 am: Edit

Feel the hot photon love....

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 12:56 am: Edit

Oh yuk.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 06:55 am: Edit

Indeed. Dale and I discussed it last night. As it stands now, only 11 crew units remain from the original crew of the Genghis (Dale was getting tipsy last night and couldn't spell). Not enough for them to crew another DD as an outstanding crew. At this point, they are likely to just be high quality destroyer crew replacements.

Genghis is still alive. After tumbling, she stopped with her bow to the Romulans. In an act of defiance, she fired here Pl-Fs (reals and pseudos} into the on rushing Roms. The Roms turned off (I'd like to think in part because of the plasma). The DD is down 9 power, and still has a photon (ready next turn), 2xPl-F (carronades), and 3 Ph-1s, as well as one shuttle (obviously a WW). She is hurt, and stopped, near an enemy fleet, but she still has some fight left in her. I don't have any illusions about saving the ship, but she will not go down without a fight.

The Constitution and the rest of the Fed fleet are hooking back around and could make another battle pass next turn. The Prometheus and Czar Alexander IV have photons ready.

Dale and I may get one more chance to play this week, but I have to give everybody fair warning. I'm going to be on official travel from 1-18 June, so no computer access. Its likely this battle will not see much more action until late June or July. Plenty of time to ponder the death of the Genghis.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 09:40 am: Edit

I wish Dale could make it to Origins. Talk a cool side show.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:42 am: Edit

Jeremy, doesnt the one CS have a legendary Dr. on board. If so the crew units could be brought to him I believe and be cured. there are several conditions in which the Dr. can cured killed units.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 11:06 am: Edit

Ed, I might be able to cure a few, but I'm not sure it will be enough to matter. I'll look into it, but even if possible, I'd have to physically get back to the Genghis. At the moment, she is isolated with the rest of the Fed fleet, which is heading directly away (currently about 10 hexes or so), and the three remaining Rom cruisers are sitting more or less in between. Getting back to transporter range

may take a while, and I suspect the Roms will be finishing off the DDL before I get the chance. That said, weird things can happen in a battle (witness turn 2 of this one)... you never know.

BTW, what happened to the DDL was extrememly rare. With the OC, her breakdown rating was 4-6, so a 1 in 6 chance she would breakdown on that HET...and it happened. Then a 1 in 6 chance she would tumble...and it too happened. THEN the damage roll for internals due to tumbling resulted in the worst possible result of a "6". The odds of that happening are 1 in 256!

"Some days the bar gets you."

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 11:30 am: Edit

You knew you were in trouble though after the photon rolls, the gods of dice were looking to get even.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 01:34 pm: Edit

I think if the Fed DD fails a HET there are special rules that says the saucer goes

into a flat spin and the engine flies off..... but I could be wrong.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 01:43 pm: Edit

ROFL.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Well, that •••• near happened. It went for a spin for 16 impusles, and half the engine was destroyed in the process. Not as dramatic, but pretty close to exactly

what Larry described.

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 03:08 pm: Edit

The joke 'house rule' in my old group was that a Fed DD that fired 4 overloaded photons on the same impulse did an immediate involuntary HET (/somersault).

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 06:46 pm: Edit

I don't think I've ever seen a Fed DD (even the +awr version) LOAD 4 full OVs.

On a side note I watched a bi-plane stall and go into a flat spin above my pasture on Saturday. Gave me quite a fright (cause I was out in it...) but he recovered.

Here is to hoping the Ghengis doesn't eat 6 F torps between now and when the fleet can get back to protect her.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Larry,

With the plus refit and the WS3 rules, a DD+ can definitely have loaded and move with 4 full OVLs...once. After it's initial shot though, it's usually back to standards or small OVLs.

Only exception I can think of to that is a DD+ with a Legendary Engineer on board.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 09:48 am: Edit

One other way is to add the XP refit on 2 of the AWRs. The OSC that this one had allowed you to save power to do other things with.

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 11:59 am: Edit

I have a friend who did it in a game outside our normal group. They didn't think the DD was worth anything... then when they realized it'd been sitting still for two turns he had a nice 8-hex zone that stayed magically clear of the enemy....

As I recall, it was a multi-sided battle, so you can imagine the kind of havoc that kind of 'pushing people around' caused....

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Yet another testament to the long-known notion that the FEAR of the photon is much worse than the photon.

Hmmm...I bet they teach a class on that at the Klingon Academy...how a commanding officer develops, but then copes with, that fear...

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 09:12 am: Edit

As expected, Dale and I are not going to get back to this before I go on travel. I don't expect any more progress on this campaign until sometime after Origins (I'm back in town on the 19th, but I have to get minis packed, scenarios preped, etc before I head to Columbus).

To leave everybody something to chew on, here's a question. When Dale and I wrap the current game up, which battle do you want to see us play next (7.17, 7.19, or 7.22 - see the hyperlink in topic header)? And what tactics do you recommend? Each of these is an interesting matchup with different tactical flavor. Any thoughts?

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:16 am: Edit

7.19, that KRT has to go, it has been a pain long enough. You are a little short on Photons, but with the extra power ratio you can maintain a speed that will make it difficult for the torps to catch you. It might mean Dale will bolt more, although he seems to be doing that more already. It will be an interesting electronic warfare battle.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 11:29 am: Edit

While I agree with Ed's comments on the KRT, and would be interested to see that battle (gotta love fast Freddies), I think 7.22 poses the most interesting and unique challenge.

The Romulans have an old Eagle-style force that seems light compared to the other combat groups, but with THREE (!) OC-equipped ships in the mix, I'll be interested to see what they can do together. On the Fed side, he's got good defenses, but has a tough mix of slow and fast ships, combined with fighters with no WBPs. Moreover, it is in many respects a "Paper Tiger" -type of force, with over half of the ships being FF hulls.* Normally, that would be a HUGE disadvantage, but against this particular group of Romulans, who knows? It could really go either way.

I suppose the key to the battle for the Feds will be if they can pound down one of those KE to the point that it loses it's R-torp. That could break the contest. Also, EW is going to be a huge challenge for the Feds.

*Not that this is a criticism of the Fed FF itself, one of the finest frigates in the game.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 07:56 pm: Edit

I agree with Rich, of the four remaining choices 7.22 seems to be the most interesting to see the outcome.

7.18 - Save this one for last; if it comes down to one battle for you to advance into his territory next turn, this should put you in it.

7.17 - same as above; only reverse the roles, if Dale needs just one more battle to maintain the frontlines for next turn, he should play this one.

7.19 - I can see this one played if you were trying to quickill one of his command ships (or the tug) but giving the field before he pounds you in response.

7.22 - This one has alot more variables in it than it first seems. I like to see just how Dale would try to pull this one out.

B^)

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 01:34 am: Edit

Wow, it's been a long time since I was on this board. Glad to see SFBers are still kicking. I've always been envious of your spectacular campaigns, Jeremy & co.

I do have a question about your map, though. I presume greyed squares are unresolved battles, but I would have thought a red square denoted rom territory and a yellow a battle in progress. From the discussion, however, it appears you're fighting in 20 currently and 17 is as yet unresolved. Am I confused on color

coding, or is it a mistake?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 03:25 am: Edit

John, I need to update that map. The image on the map is from a point in the middle of the last campaign turn. Sorry about the confusion.

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Friday, June 20, 2008 - 12:14 am: Edit

Not a problem, I was just trying to figure out if I was looking at it wrong.

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 04:39 am: Edit

A quick question, if I may. With the FCR system giving a discount for the first fighter squadron and first PF squadron, how are you planning on handling the fact that the Roms will be able to get more attrition units in a battle for fewer command points?

Also, Jeremy, have you considered converting a CL to the drone bombardment version? It's one of the only really useful conversions of the CL hull, if I'm remembering correctly (it's been years since I last even cracked an SFB book).

In any case, I've been greatly entertained by powering thru this campaign from start to finish. Thanks for the effort you guys put into making it available to the rest of us!

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 05:18 am: Edit

Monthly bump

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, August 01, 2008 - 11:45 pm: Edit

We're planning to play some more of 7.20 tomorrow afternoon (EDT). I'm not expecting much more than a turn, but we'll see.

John, without giving away too many secrets, I plan to deal with Rom PF deployment in two ways - X-ships and Heavy Fighters. Dale and I working with roughly the same amount of points for new construction each year, but as we get to the Y180's he will have to make hard choices between X-ships and/or PFs. If he fields large numbers of PFs, he will not be able to match the Feds in X-ship count. It should roughly balance itself either way, but we have to get there first.

I've been tempted to convert the Macedonia to a CLD. I think the biggest obsticle has been nastalgia. I actually like having the only CL kiking around out there. The value of a CLD maybe too much to ignore however - we'll have to see. But I have considerd it.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, August 02, 2008 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Turn 3 of Battle 7.20 complete. Screenshot

Turn 3 saw more pain for the DDL+ Genghis. Attempting to back down toward the

map edge, she was hit by a Pl-F and 3 Pl-Ds through her #1. The ships is left with 6 power and very little she can do on the next turn.

The remaining Fed fleet ran out and phasered the inbound plasma from turn 2 (which turned out to be fake). They then turned back in to pursue the Roms.

Meanwhile the Roms circles around, opening the range a bit. Late in the turn, they turned north again, and launched more plasma. A Plasma-R and 2xPlasma-S are in the air and headed towards the Feds.

The CS+ Prometheous opened fire on the SKF at the end of the turn, hitting with 3 of 4 standard photons and doing an handful of internals. The remainder of the Fed fleet will be fully loaded and ready to fire on impulse 1.

Not sure when Dale and I will get to play next. I'm on travel for the next two weeks, and my not have internet access. If not, we'll try to get some more done in late August.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, August 03, 2008 - 08:44 pm: Edit

One of the things that affects the effectiveness of PFs is the deployment rules. If the PFs cannot be used without a PFT, then wrecking the PFT can put the PF flotilla out of service without having to actually defeat it.

With the limitations on fleet size in this campaign, if you have a PFT, you are probably also using it as your fleet scout. This limits the ways in which the PF flotilla can be deployed, as you have to send it somewhere you also need a scout.

An F-111M is about as good as a PF on a fixed map, as it is just as fast, almost as tough and while it has less firepower, it has a lot of drones. Many campaigns give the Federation extra megafighters if they don't use the Fed PFs. In that case, there's not really any deficit.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Sunday, August 03, 2008 - 11:45 pm: Edit

Well, you can also use casual PFs on Mech Links. But yes, in general you are right. Also, in our campaign, the "point of efficiency" is 6 PFs (1 Flotilla). You can pile more in, but the Flexible Command Rating System punishes you for it.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Sunday, August 03, 2008 - 11:47 pm: Edit

For the record, I don't think Romulans having PFs (and the Feds not) will UNBALANCE the campaign; if anything I think it will RE-BALANCE it. I know right now I am having a hell of a time fighting Fed carrier groups.

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 02:15 am: Edit

True, I'd fogotten how much plasma fighters suck.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 02:24 am: Edit

Yep. One of the reasons the Roms went relatively carrier-LIGHT and focused instead on as many cruisers as possible... trying to match G-SFs and G-IIs against F-15s and A10s doesn't pan out so well.

Not to say that I have no carriers, but to date, my largest carrier (aside from the SUP) is a SKB.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 12:16 am: Edit

Ouch.

Elllllliot.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 11:12 am: Edit

Battle 7.20 completed. Webpage updated.

Turn 4 ended up being far more decisive than Dale or I really expected. As turn 3 came to an end, it looked like the following turn would see an early prox shot at the down shield on the SKF Gladius. The Feds would then turn off and hold the range open against a charging trio of Romulan cruisers.

As I looked at the possibilities before we got started again, it became increasingly clear to me that I could not take the shot (backed up with enough EW) and have enough power to open the range. The more I looked at it, the more I became convinced it was time to "engage the enemy more closely". The Feds plotted speed 24 for the opening impulses, then a max-decel plot to the end of the turn (as I was going to need to E-decel and use WWs after quickly moving about a half-dozen hexes).

The opening impulses went as you might expect. The Rom cruisers started at speed 20, slipping away in an apparent effort to avoid overload range. The SKF turned in, killing 3 of 4 scatterpacks with scout channels and launching more plasma, along with more Pl-Ds from the Rom MRS mini-squadron. As the plasma poured in, it was clear the Feds were not going to reach the Rom cruisers, and they were going to need to E-decel as a group to avoid getting split up. The Constitution centerlined the Gladius and fired an alpha strike from range 4 (standards only), crippling the ship. The MRS squadron pounded the CB's #1 with Ph-3s, taking the shield down to just six boxes before they were wiped out with short range Fed phasers. The Constitution turned off and weaseled (avoiding an impact by 90 points of plasma) and Gladius HETed away.

The Rom cruisers now turned in, with the Fed fleet stopped and down to 6 of 14 photons still available. The Roms were equally short on plasma (PL-Fs only), but it was pretty even fight at this point - essentially NHK + 2K7R vs 2xCS + DDL. Dale and I now started holding our breath ... it was impulse 10...we would not exhale

until somewhere around impulse 24.

As the Roms turned in, they launched two PL-Fs. In response, the Feds launched 6 drones (mostly type-IVs with varying amounts of armor). The remaining scatterpack blossomed and its drones began moving through the fur ball that was the Fed fleet. The range continued to close...6 hexes, 5 hexes... The SC slammed the K7Rs with 6 points of OEW each. Now four hexes. The first Pl-F reached the Prometheus... a fake! Same with the second! The Feds wisely held their defensive fire for a better target. The Atlas and Czar Alexander IV could wait no longer. They opened up with 3 overloads, 3 standards, and 8 Ph-1s on the Valiant. Half the photons missed, but the damage through the K7R's #2 shield still totaled around 40 points, and she could not turn away. The ship-launched drones now reached the Rom cruisers. The NHK tractored 4 of them, and phasered down the rest. The Roms then slipped out, bringing the weak #1 shield of the Constitution to bear. Pl-F bolts and phasers pounded the ship for 30 internals. Meanwhile mizia fire from the remaining Fed ships hammered the Valiant, leaving it a burning wreck after two impulses.

The Roms had only a few offside Pl-Fs and a handful of phasers at the point, and the Feds were likewise pretty low on weapons (a few Ph-1s). I hoped the Roms would turn off to lick their wounds, but it was not the be. The NHK and both K7Rs turn in again, now at speed 28, and launched two more Pl-Fs at the CB. A single tac was not enough to turn the down shield away, the ship would take another 40 internals. It would have the power to escape, but with three photons and half its phasers destroyed, it was no longer a factor in the battle. The battered Roms continued on towards the remaining Fed ships. Five drones from the scatterpack slammed into the crippled Valiant, detonating the ship within range of both its Romulan sisters and the three target Feds. Low on weapons, the Marcus Tacitus and Reliance focuses their fire on the Czar Alexander IV, which now had a down shield facing them. The damage was horrific. While the ships still had some warp power, it was left with only 8 other boxes (including excess damage). In response, the Atlas did the last thing she could... she tractored the Reliance and the Prometheus! This slowed the K7R to speed 10 and kept her under the Fed's guns while the NHK sped through the Fed formation in route to the crippled Genghis. The turn ended with the Marcus Tacitus dropping two shuttles near the DDL. Still not ready to concede defeat, but now down to one good shield, she crippled both manned shuttles with phaser fire.

At this point, the battle was really decided. The Reliance, stuck one hex away from the Altas and Prometheus was doomed. She exploded in a haul of photon and phaser fire on the first impulse of turn 5. In a final act of defiance, she poured 5 ph-1s into the Genghis. The Gladius turned back in and finished of the Genghis with phasers, but was unable to deal with a handful of Fed drones, which killed her near the end of the turn. The remaining Feds accelerated to speed 10, with the Constitution and Czar Alexander IV hoping to disengage. The NHK circled, prepping her weapons.

Now on turn 6, the NHK would have none of it. She launched an enveloped PL-R at the crippled DDG. Phaser fire from the escorting CB could not stop 100 points of plasma, and the ship exploded off the CB's #2 shield. The NHK turned off, with the Prometheus and Atlas gaining speed, but falling behind in pursuit. Faced with fighting two strike cruisers, supported by a scout, the commander of the Marcus Tacitus knew he could do no more without sacrificing his ship. He could attack and possibly kill one of the strike cruisers, but it would likely cost the Empire his important flagship. He reluctantly ordered his helm to set course for Romulan territory.

The crippled Constitution disengaged as well, leaving the remaining Feds to hold the field. The CB would need a year in drydock to make repairs, and would not be available for combat in Y176.

This ended up a lot more bloody that it could have, but I think Dale and I saw how things were developing and were determined to "die with our boots on". I was lucky to save the CB, and had my photons been worse, I may not have killed as many Romulan ships. I expect Dale will be replacing the {Reliance} and Valiant with shiney new Firehawks next turn, and the Gladius is easily replaced with the one of his numerous other Skyhawks. The HFA was no doubt a painful loss, but he does have one more Falcon available. Its poor crew may not be much of a factor given the way maulers work. For my part, losing the DDG and especially the DDL (with an outstanding crew) hurts. Those ships are pretty much irreplacible at this point - DWs cost more FCR points in a battle line, and new DDs take up NCL slots in the shipways. Two more steps towards the extinction of the lollipop.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 11:23 am: Edit

Battle 7.19 up next. What can the Star Tiger do against the monster fleet led by the Behemoth!

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Thanks for the post. It is fascinating to watch these battles unfold; how the ships are flown and the tactics used.

This last battle was an interesting bare-knuckle fight. Where does this battle leave the two sides tactically and strategically?

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 08:35 am: Edit

Nice posting these battles...they are fun to read...nostalgic as from the old SFB days...a classic set of scenarios with fresh moves and tactics make for a good time.

Thanks.

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 06:34 pm: Edit

Wow, a bloodbath! Rare to see so many destroyed ships in a single battle in a campaign. Was there a strategic reason you both decided to go the distance on this one?

As always, thanks for the batrep.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 08:45 pm: Edit

John, we just kind of ended up there (at least from my perspective). As you can see from the end of turn 3, I was in one of those positions that makes you want to shot and turn off, but when I started looking at the consequences, I was going to be setting myself up for the Roms to run me over. All the pieces were in place for an early Fed prox shot, backed up with high EW, which would have led to a slow running speed over the rest of the turn. The Roms were low on plasma, but if they were willing to go a bit faster than the max Fed speed of about 20, they would have been able to catch up and be ready with a lot of big plasma on the following turn. As I looked at that situation, I felt it better to drive in and take my chances.

I do have to admit, I was surprised that Dale came in...I though he was going to leave me with nothing more than the shot at the scout. I suspect he felt like he had to do something in exchange for having the scout hammered. Otherwise, he would have ended up doing little damage in exchange for losing the ship.

Dale and I have both talked about how this sort of thing was going to happen eventually in the campaign. The fleets were getting stronger, and sooner or later, either the campaign was going to grind to a force-on-force stalemate or there was going to be some decisive battles. Something had to give eventually and it did here. We almost had this happen in battle 6.17 in the last campaign turn, but I wasn't ready lose the Nimitz and disengaged instead. This time, I felt like I couldn't avoid it, and as I said, better to "die with your boots on" than get cut to death running.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 10:38 pm: Edit

Jeremy,

Without giving away your battle plans are there some thoughts you can post how you plan to engage the K9R?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 02:38 pm: Edit

JRC,

I don't want to sell the farm, but some general thoughts...

I basically have fleet with two distinct parts in this one. The DNL, CF, and DDF form a small, fast squadron, while the NCLa and the CVL (w/ 6xF-18s), are a slower "base of fire" force.

I can operate the two groups together as a single fleet, with the NCL setting the pace, and the fast ships benefiting from all that excess power in the EW game. More concentrated firepower. The downside - the CVL has a hard time operating its fighters, and has work hard to keep up, limiting its power for EW.

The alternative is to break the fleet up, and see if I can create opportunities. The NCL and CVL are likely to catch hell, but it might open the door for the DNL or the other fast ships to get in and do some good work.

This campaign has given me a great respect for the K9R. It truely is an outstanding DN. The DNL is an odd duck. Its a great ship, but as a flagship, its no better to me than a CC. The fleet Dale has here is a real beast.

The other thing this campaign has confirmed for me (something I already believed)... the CVL is not everything its cracked up to be. Its the ultimate swiss-army-knife ship. A scout+carrier with roughly the firepower of a DDG. The problem is, it is shy on power to support all of those things, and you can get in trouble trying to do too much. It is hugely tempting to get some use out of its photons, but rearming them can leave the ship sucking wind. Its fat battery bank can bail it out once, but once that boost is gone, the ship can quickly become a big target. I really look forward to fielding my first NSC in the next campaign turn!

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 04:54 pm: Edit

Jeremy,

Thanks for the response. This battle will be fun to see how it plays out.

Hopefully the CF with the LWO will get some good shots in. The CF WOLVERINE and DDF TWO MOONS can have a second/third go at the KRT AQUARIUS. Isn't time for the age of Aquarius to end?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 06:52 pm: Edit

Yes, yes it is.

By Ezekiel P. Carpenter-Hyland (Admiral_Zekedak) on Monday, September 01, 2008 - 01:49 am: Edit

17.20 was indeed a bloodbath... but sadly for the Romulans. Shows how quickly things can fall apart in fleet battles even with sound game play.

As this was the most destructive battle so far, having ship losses greater than each full year except Y170, I’m apt to wonder what the strategic consequences will be. My take is that the Federation will now become more aggressive, pushing through lines 7 and 6 unless the Romulans can hold in costly attrition battles. Good news is a couple of Romulan victories, or a retreat to line 5, will finally put the Caesar into action. I’ll gladly wait another couple of years just for the chance

to see it go down.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, September 01, 2008 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Battle 7.19 is underway: Screenshot, end of turn 2

I got to admit, Dale and I are getting increasing frustrated with the Fed vs Rom matchup, mainly because of the feast or famine nature of dice dependent play...

Turn 1 was uneventful. The Feds and Roms closed on each other at relatively high speed. The Feds launched three SPs mid turn, and the CVL+ fell behind at speed 12, launching F-18s, while the rest sped ahead at 31. The Roms launched three MRS shuttles late in the turn. No fire was exchanged on turn 1, and the two fleets ended turn 1 about 12 hexes apart.

Turn 2 should have been decisive. The Feds started the turn at speed 31 (with a late decel to 16), with the CVL still trailing behind at speed 12. The DNL and CF launched MRS shuttles on impulse 1 (the CVL+ would launch its MRS a few impulses later). The Roms began the turn at speed 31 and would slow later to 20. The Feds were all running with high ECCM, the Roms relatively low mixes of ECCM and ECM.

The fleets reached range 9 and the Roms opened fire on the NCL. Dale bolted an R, 3 S, and 3 F torps, along with a bunch of phasers... and only did 44 points to the NCL's #1. All three S-torps and a F-torp missed. The damage in the screenshot is all the damage that ship would take this turn.

At this point, I'm feeling pretty good. All my photons are intact, and I'm about to hit range 8 with plenty of room to turn off and high ECCM. I'm going to get a monster shot on the K9B. Been waiting all campaign for this chance. Dale turns across my bow, forcing me to turn right. Range 8. I pull the trigger. 9 16-pt photons, 4 14-pt photons, 19 ph-1s. No shift, and a LWO on the CF. The K9B is going to be a smoking wreck, if it doesn't explode, right? Guess again...3 16pt photons hit (10 misses!), and the phasers score moderate damage. The K9B takes about 40 internals, and I'm ready to throw my hat. I'm glad no children were within ear-shot of my computer.

The two fleets turned away from each other. I circled my fast ships around to cover the CVL+, and Dale's Roms battled to get around a huge drone wave. I threw every drone I could (and the kitchen sink) to keep the range open. The CVL+ got a shot at the down shield on the K9B with prox torps and scored 4 more damage, which the DNL, CF, and DDF followed with 6 more from phasers at range 15. In all, Dale cut his way through 22 drones, with 13 still in his way at this point.

At this point, all I can do with the Feds is run for a turn. All of their guns are empty, and the Roms still have 5 S-torps and 3 2-torps ready to fire. I've

managed to beat up his flagship, but its way less than I should have done and his cruisers are all still fresh. The Kearsarge is hurting - she can run, or rearm, but not both. I'm not going to disengage just yet, but I clearly need to open the range next turn.

Thank the maker for drones. If the Feds only had photons to rely on in the battle, the CVL+ would be dead right now.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 01, 2008 - 09:18 pm: Edit

Frustrating is right. I'm so sick of trying to wade through scads of drones, and watching the Feds outrun or shoot down my plasma (or weasel it). Forces me to bolt, but my luck sucks, so that's a bad choice usually.

Even when the Fed has bad die luck, I still can't close the gap.

Feh.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, September 01, 2008 - 09:27 pm: Edit

Jeremy, Dale, I feel your pain. In both a Thunderdome campaign game and my current RAT game against Sheap I've rolled *really* horrible across several hundred dice. I'd say I'm in the second standard deviation - low side. Just very odd.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 01, 2008 - 09:46 pm: Edit

By the way, the above should be qualified that it's the matchup that is frustrating

- not flying Jeremy.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 10:47 am: Edit

That is really sad.

Live by the photon, die by the photon.

By Ezekiel P. Carpenter-Hyland (Admiral_Zekedak) on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Disengage ??? Madness !!!

This Federation Admiral is clearly made from a different metal than the one commanding 7.20. You have dictated the course of battle and, despite bad luck, positioned yourself to deliver a crushing blow on the Romulan command ship. Furthermore, you are in great position pull this maneuver again while the Kestrels swat away your bee swarm. I smell another crushing Federation victory in the making.

By the way, I'm rooting for the Romulans so this would be the worst possible outcome from my point of view. Sadly, I'm at a loss as to how they can overcome current Federation tactics.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 02:21 pm: Edit

I think the Roms need more anti-drone technology. Maybe some more escorts and fighters of their own. Plasma-D drogues will help when they become available.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 06:04 pm: Edit

The map extract doesn't give much idea of how much room the Feds have to run. This is a double map, isn't it?

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 06:20 pm: Edit

Well, they CAN do the cloak Yo-Yo.

Cloak out when the feds are at a decent range, double clutch the speed to make them lose lock on and then fade back in over the course of a dozen impulses or so.

Not very efficiant for the KRs, but good for the Rom built hulls.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 11:38 pm: Edit

Jim, the Feds are pretty close to dead center on a 64x30 hex map.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 12:45 am: Edit

I've said it before - the Fed drones are a pain, but I can deal with them.

What happens when they get speed-32 drones, that's another story. My only answer so far is PFs... which is why I tend to to be a little defensive when people want the Feds to get "compensation" for the Roms having PFs. ;)

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 12:52 am: Edit

But Dale, the Feds HAVE "compensation:"

It's the MA-20F.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 03:54 am: Edit

Yes, they do. But Megafighters are limited in our campaign, as they are in most campaigns. I will have far more PFs than the Feds have A20FMs.

That said, the Feds will probably have more X-ships, as I can spend my points on PFs, or X-ships, or a bit of both, but it all has to be paid for somewhere.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Which reminds me...rules question (yes, another one) headed your way via e-mail for Far Stars...

By Ezekiel P. Carpenter-Hyland (Admiral_Zekedak) on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 04:50 pm: Edit

I've been playing the PF campaign (version including starships) and have found the Romulan Starhawks to be amazingly versatile. I'm commonly off balance when facing them as each flotilla has been customized for fleet tactics. This flexibility more than makes up for generally lower plasma-F counts. The plasma-D versions also hold their own quite well in assault runs as they can achieve close quarters as well as any other PF. Centurions on the other hand seem a sad second. They have been best used against me in rolling or massed plasma fire on selected targets like isolated/spent ships or bases.

By Ezekiel P. Carpenter-Hyland (Admiral_Zekedak) on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Man, this campaign is really heating up. Such excitement is just begging for an account of the current round of battles.

7.17 Unplayed. Solid fleets. Looks like either fleet can have the day. 7.18 Unplayed. Modest Romulan fleet will probably flee before the might of CVAa Julius Caesar. Then again… 7.19 Battle in progress. Advantage appears to be with the Romulans. 7.20 Solid Federation victory. I weep for the fallen. 7.21 Romulans Flee 7.22 Unplayed. Interesting action with modest Eagle fleet vs. Fed CVS + many FFs. 7.23 Romulans Flee 7.24 Romulans Flee

Current Score: Romulans 0 Federation 4

Unless I’m mistaken, or the Romulans go for 7.18, the Federation needs to win only one of three battles to advance to line 6 and the Romulan base stations. Whatever comes, expect some all out fighting. I'm totally jealous of your awesome SFB action. Guess I'll just have to content myself with little PF campaigns. Rock on.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 08:01 pm: Edit

Have you guys decided what happens if the Federation pushes the Romulans completely out? I know the plan is to do a "double ended" Admiral's game, but which side (if either) is stuck with the "retreaters in reserve" rule?

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 09:57 pm: Edit

Well, either we will have the Feds on the attack, or we'll retire the campaign, depending. I think Jeremy and I are both leaning towards the former at the moment.

As for the "retreaters in reserve rule", the turn the Romulans get pushed off the line, they are still the attacker, and so any retreating ships would be unavailable to defend the next turn - which kind of simulates the starting conditions wherein

the defender starts with half his fleet in reserve.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 10:01 pm: Edit

Yeah, IF (big if), I manage to push Dale back, he will not have any ships that retreated available on the next turn. Of course, in an ideal world for Dale, he will hold me this turn, and if necessary, he will put the minimum number of ships on the line next turn and retreat en masse, so the bulk of his fleet will be ready for a fight when I advance.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 05:58 am: Edit

Question:

Is the Fed fleet in 7.18 legal under the FCR system? There are 4 DD hulls present in the battle, without a leader hull, but all are listed as -6 FCR points each, without the normal surcharge for "leaderless"duplicate hulls. Some sort of rule excepting carrier escorts perhaps?

Cheers, Jason

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 06:40 am: Edit

Jason, yes, we treat all of the escorts as "led" by their carrier.

"A carrier’s escorts must be paid for in command points, even if the escorts are not present! However, a carrier’s escorts are also counted as being ‘led’ by that unit, so do not pay a ‘duplicate class’ penalty.

Escorts present without their carrier (due to logistics or the loss of the carrier) pay DOUBLE their normal FCR cost. They still count as their base hull size for the purposes of the Duplicate Class penalty."

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 06:25 pm: Edit

Thanks for the clarification.

Cheers, Jason

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, September 12, 2008 - 07:01 am: Edit

Screenshot from battle 7.19, end of turn 4

I'll post details later...heading out the door for work...

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, September 12, 2008 - 09:17 am: Edit

OK, the details...

Turn 3 (Wed night). This turn stunk on ice. I think Dale and I were a little too tired, and were certainly playing a little fast and loose. As planned, the Feds kept

the speed on and opened the range on the Roms in pursuit. Meanwhile, the Roms had their hands full with drones. In the confused firball, a single Type-IV drone got through and hit the KRL in the #5 shield. Dale was ready to throw his hat, and I don't blame him.

As the chase continued, the K9B sat as speed 0 and commenced repairs. The F-18s made an end run and began closing. Pl-Fs launched from the KRT forced an early drone launch, and most of the phasers were used up defensively. In the end, I managed to get 4 F-18s through, but as expected the K9B used a WW to shed the drones. By the end of the turn, the fighters had closed to range 3 on the big DN, under EM, and ready for an attack run.

Meanwhile, the Feds hooked back around behind a new drone wave. The KRL had lowered its #6 shield to beam out a T-bomb, and now had to turn away to avoid letting the Feds close to overload range. While Roms launched a big spread of plasma, the Feds answered with massed phaser fire on the KRL form range 15. The initial salvo scored well, and feeling greedy, the Feds turned to point the Roms near the end of the turn, bringing the offside phasers to bear. The second shot scored a few more points, but the Roms answered with ph-1s of their own and slammed the NCL through its down shield for 6 more points.

What a mess. Dale and both mad errors in this turn we shouldn't have, and the KRL and NCL paid for it. The bright side for Dale - his EDR and prime team repairs were 6 for 6 on the K9B warp engines.

Turn 4 (Yesterday afternoon). The carnage continued.

First the K9B - the ship began the turn by backing down at speed 10, and dropping a t-bomb. This did a nice job of killing of my last drone launch from the fighters. The F-18s closed to range 2 and popped out of EM in time to slam the K9B's front shield. They managed the damage you see on the screen capture - the K9B had a pretty goo brick up.

As for the rest, the Feds popped off 8 prox torps at the KRL's weak #5, scoring with only 3 (photons are now 6 for 21 in this battle). The CF floowed this with some more long rage phaser fire, which did score very well. The Roms returned fire and hammered the NCL again, destroying the drone rack I had just finished repairing.

From that point, the fleets turned away from each other. The big plasma volley turned out to be almost all fake, but it managed to suck my phaser capacitors down on the remaining ships. The NCL headed off to a quiet corner to lick its wounds while the rest of the fleet turned back south again. The Roms turned back in late in the turn, and the Feds answered with another drone wave (the one you see on the map).

Things end with the prime team make another successful warp repair! __________________________

As it stands now, the Feds have 4 overloads available on the CF and DNL, while the rest of the tubes are going to be reloading next turn. The 4 F-18s are still alive and harrassing the K9B, but they are empty on drones. By my count, the three Rom cruisers should all still have plasma ready next turn. The Rom fleet in in the northern half of the center of the map, NCL is up against the northern map edge, about 12 hexes from the corner of a 84x60 map. From there, I'll leave it to you all to imagine what the next turn might be like.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Friday, September 12, 2008 - 12:41 pm: Edit

Why would you send 4 droneless fighters to point blank on a DN? Are you tired of driving fighters around?

Its kind of a bummer you couldn't make the advantage stick, the K9 will be up to par pretty soon..... alibiet with a big maneuver restriction.

Eventually one of these volleys is going to connect in a HUGE way and that will be all she wrote. When you go 6-21, one of these days you go 15-21 and nuke something.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, September 12, 2008 - 12:46 pm: Edit

The problem I have is the fighters are completely cut off from their carrier. I used the fighters to buy my ships some time after the first big whiff, and this was the result. I'd love to get them back to the CVL+ (about 30 hexes away), but they need to find a way past the rest of the Romulan fleet.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Friday, September 12, 2008 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Yeah I saw that......

Without seeing how you got there, I'm not impressed by their deployment.

(Don't you love armchair wing commanders?)

By Douglas Jordan (Djordan) on Friday, September 12, 2008 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Jeremy:

I don't recall reading in earlier posts, but in this campaign, do you roll for weapon status for your bases? If so, have any been at weapon stat 0?

I've read of your reasoning to not use Starbases, in you opinion, without the newer base/shuttle rule, is a starbase that rolls weapon stat 0 the only way to kill

one in an admirals game?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, September 12, 2008 - 01:35 pm: Edit

Larry, if anything, you should be impressed that I managed to get them all the

way over their without getting them killed (yet)!

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, September 12, 2008 - 01:45 pm: Edit

Douglas, we don't roll for WS in this campaign. Both sides always start at WS-III. I've never been a fan of a random roll on WS in a campaign that is intended to replicate a full scale, war-time front. Lower WS is OK for units "behind the lines" or in peacetime, but once "its on", its unlikily to find a ship (or squadron) steaming around at the front with its pants down. Probably the only place I'd use WS in the Admiral's game is in the opening round, in an effort to produce the effect of a surprise attack.

The main reason we dropped Starbases in this campaign was scale. Because the FCR system we are using limits fleet size to roughly 5-7 ships, it is pretty much impossible to take on a Starbase. But to your question, I think it would be pretty hard for a full F&E level fleet to take down an alerted, well defended SB in a Admiral's game. Presumeably the SB will have the max number of defending ships, which makes any attempt at seige very difficult. I think the best approach for the attacker in an Admirals game with Starbases is to find ways to attrite enemy ships first. This will probably mean a series of successive battles where the attacker presses to get kills, with the objective of wearing down the defender to a point where he can't fully defend his bases. That's easier said than done, but I think its a better approach than suicide attacks on the "walls" of a heavily defended Starbase.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, September 12, 2008 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Quote:

The main reason we dropped Starbases in this campaign was scale. Because the FCR system we are using limits fleet size to roughly 5-7 ships, it is pretty much impossible to take on a Starbase. But to your question, I think it would be pretty hard for a full F&E level fleet to take down an alerted, well defended SB in a Admiral's game. Presumeably the SB will have the max number of defending ships, which makes any attempt at seige very difficult. I think the best approach for the attacker in an Admirals game with Starbases is to find ways to attrite enemy ships first. This will probably mean a series of successive battles where the attacker presses to get kills, with the objective of wearing down the defender to a point where he can't fully defend his bases. That's easier said than done, but I think its a better approach than a suicide attacks on the "walls" of a heavily defended Starbase.

Just to throw in my two cents, this SFB result is borne out in actual F&E play. The attacker has to go through *alot* more reserves than the defender to take out a defended starbase. Assuming relative average dice, the attacker must cripple two additional war cruisers every battle round relative to the defender. To make matters worse, unless you target the SB with SIDS, that pace will keep up almost indefinitely. However, if you do target the SB, the defender takes far less damage to his ships - meaning that by the time the SB goes down the attacker can end up with a whole messload of cripples and the defender with very little in the way of ship casualties.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, September 13, 2008 - 11:03 am: Edit

In other news, when Dale and I finally finish slugging through Y175, my intention is to introduce some F-101s in place of a portion of the F-18 force in the 6th Fleet. Some of the F-101s are going to be a simple stopgap until I get to F-111s, but the remainder will remain in squadron service aboard at least one of the Fed carriers. Right now, I'm leaning towards eventually making the Ranger a dedicated F-101 carrier, as its single shuttle bay door really hinders operation of a full 12xF-18 squadron.

By Y178, my intention is to have the CVA transitioned from A-10s to A-20s and to convert the CVS+ Nelson to a CB, with the Grim Repears transitioned to F-111s on a new NVH. Right now, I plan to keep the Yamamoto in its current split wing configuration, and hold on long enough to see the A-6D enter service with the Sunday Punchers. I realize the A-6 is not the best fighter out there, but I want to give the upgraded models from CL a shot before I'm done with them.

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Saturday, September 13, 2008 - 03:49 pm: Edit

I'm not familiar with the A-6D, what suppliment is it in? I can't find it in G2.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, September 13, 2008 - 07:24 pm: Edit

The A-6D was introduced in CL29, with additional history in CL30. YIS is Y178, replaces the A-6 drone rails with 4xspecial rails.

The main benefit of the A-6D is the massive, single turn launch rate using Type-IIIs. On Yamamoto, I plan to field 6 of them with a half squadron F-18Bs.

By Ezekiel P. Carpenter-Hyland (Admiral_Zekedak) on Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 08:58 pm: Edit

In my experience, SFB and F&E are totally different games with little common ground save backdrop. This is obvious as in F&F a Federation CA is a number 8 while in SFB it's 4xphotons, 6-8 phaser 1s plus possible phaser 3s (and associated charts), drones, all kinds of other boxes, shuttles, a speed with turning mode, lab functions... (you get the picture).

A clear example of this difference is fleet composition (the combination of all those boxes/charts/exc) and the effects that has on outcome. So let me pick on

maulers. How many ships have been crippled/destroyed by maulers in this campaign. I'll guess one or two, a small fraction of the times they have appeared. In F&E they do that every time, even with just 4-6 supporting ships. But I preach to the converted.

As far as Star Bases go, I'll leave that discussion to the term paper of some bright eyed ensign. (In case you didn't know, a lone SB will slaughter any 5-7 ship FCR fleet). Then again, this whole idea of ship limits is silly, just like the 100+ phaser 4 bracket. Didn't you know that just a few decades ago hundreds of Federation bases would send massed phaser fire into Romulan space??? Made those Star Base assaults so much easier.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 09:23 pm: Edit

I've gotten some good use out of my maulers, once I built "fighting maulers" with plasma, and combined them with the cloak.

As for a full FCR fleet being able to take on a lone, undefended SB, I think it could if you had the right mix of ships.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, September 15, 2008 - 10:06 am: Edit

I agree with Dale. A lone base (including a SB) is not nearly as menacing as a base defended by a squadron of ships. Without the threat of those additional ships, the attacking fleet can afford to settle into a favorable range and pound the base to death. Under the FCR system we're using, I could assemble a fleet with 18 photons an a big scout pretty easily - more than enough to prox a base to death from range 30. Fighters and PFs can help here, but they generally don't have the long range weapons or staying power to the job on their own. Of course, that never really happens. There are typically defending ships, and that's enough put the attackers on a clock the base can usually outlast. The 37-turn base assault in this campaign is proof of that.

As for "this whole idea of ship limits is silly", folks are welcome to see it that way, but without the cap Dale and I have put on fleet size, we would have never made this much progress on the campaign. After flying a couple 12-on-12 fleet battles, we would have been bored to tears and given up. We both have better things to do than spend an entire day trying to work through a single turn.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 15, 2008 - 11:53 am: Edit

Yes, in the case of the Roms, without the threat of ships, you could settle into a nice plasma-bombing cycle with a bunch of R- and S-torps from R15 at speed-0 with a big brick and use the cloak to hide when you aren't ready to shoot.

A fleet under our FCR limits could easily field 4-5 R torps.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, September 15, 2008 - 03:57 pm: Edit

For the Feds, the possibility that the Agincourt would enter the map and either:

1) Standoff 15 hexes behind the photon ships and send out an endless stream of drones while providing massive amounts of EW support would be killer.

2) Close to Range 15 from the base and hit the base with OEW while holding a big brick and keeping a ew drone in play...

By Ezekiel P. Carpenter-Hyland (Admiral_Zekedak) on Monday, September 15, 2008 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Nothing kills your free time like playing fleet battles with over 50 ships, something I attempted just once. Still, every Star Admiral would concentrate ships, particularly against Star Bases.

As far as game play here is concerned, I think the current FCR approach with 5-7 ships has worked really well. Each side has to make real choices that are not necessary with 10+ ships seen using command ratings. Excellent choice.

Ditto on excluding Star Bases. Having defending ships in the base battles, something that would be hard using FCR in Star Base assaults, has made for great action. While I hope the Romulans march on, it will be really interesting to see cloaked Base Stations in action. Might be a hard nut for the Federation to crack.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 15, 2008 - 06:51 pm: Edit

Depending on how this turn goes, it's a very real possibility the Roms will get driven back into their own space next turn.

And that's okay. Be nice to make the FEDS sweat the pain of having any

retreating ships go to Reserve for a full turn...

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 15, 2008 - 06:54 pm: Edit

As for playing fleet battles with 12 ships per side and scads of attrition units... ah yes, those were the days. When I was 23 and in college and could play 3 days a week, all day.

Now that I'm 40, working, and have a family, there's no bloody way.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Battle 7.19 complete.

Turn 5 didn't really go as anticipated. I planned on running from the Roms most of the turn (with roughy a speed 24-17-24 plot). The drone wave launched on turn 4 sort of herded most of the Roms to the south, which set up a good

geometry for the Fed fast ships to turn back in for a range 8 battle pass. The KRL had slipped off to the north, intent on forcing the NCL to disengage.

The Feds turned in and reached range 8. EW on both sides was pretty low. 2 of 4 Fed photons and a big phaser barrage scored 71 damage on the KRB. The Roms fired a spread of bolts (4xS,2xF) at the DDF...and they all missed! Our horrid dice luck continuing! Rom phasers wanged the DDF shield, but it was not enough to punch through.

In other action, the K9B finished off the remaining F-18s. Remote controls fortunately saved the pilots, but the CVL will be eating up most of its spares to re-outfit the squadron.

With three of five ships damaged, the Roms elected to disengage. The KRL forced the NCL to disengage as well.

Overall, a very frustrating battle. I think I played pretty well, but both Dale and I had pretty bad dice luck on some very big volleys. Hair pulling.

This will end the campaign turn. The Roms disengaged in the face the CVA again, and with sufficient victories to force the Rom retreat, the Feds chose not to risk the Star Empire and the Yamamoto. Final campaign turn results are posted on the web page (topic header).

While this is normally the end of the Admiral's Game, Dale and I plan to continue this campaign. The next turn will see the Feds launching an offensive into Romulan space in Y176. More to follow...

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 06:26 pm: Edit

When you miss with 6/6 plasma bolts at R8, it's time to leave.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 07:58 pm: Edit

I will confess Jeremy and I have both felt extreme frustration at the dice server. It seems to "clump" low and high rolls, such that you either hit really well, or really poorly, but rarely average.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 09:19 pm: Edit

Romulan builds for T7:

Turn Cost Unit Name 7 12 CON>CON+ Imperator 7 5 SUP-A>K Praetor Zajac 7 54 SPA>FHK Defiance 7 44 SPA>FHF Adversary 7 10 SPC>SPC+ Hunter 7 3 K5S>K5D Endeavor 7 2 KDR Deceit

7 2 KDR Treachery 7 -22 SEA Bravery 7 -22 SEA Fervently 7 54 PAM 3x PAM for BS

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 10:29 pm: Edit

Jeremy and/or Dale,

I just trying to understand this part of the game. Please tell me if I got this correct:

With the victories in 7.18 and 7.19, Jeremy is now allowed to press into Dale's territory next turn. However, the FED forces that were in 7.17 and 7.22 cannot participate because they withdrew from battle (they will be held in reserve); while all of the ROMULAN forces are available because they are on the defensive now.

B^)

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 10:54 pm: Edit

I can't find out what happened to them in previous messages. So, what happened to those two Kzinti hulls in Federation service back on Turn 1?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 11:48 pm: Edit

George,

Not quite. I'm still on the "offensive" through the end of the turn 7. So the Fed forces from 7.17 and 7.22 will be available to me. Likewise, Romulan units that disengaged in turn 7 will not be available on turn 8. After play on turn 8, I'm under the attacker's disengagement penalty. Dale and I feel this replicates the turn 1 state in the Admiral's game fairly well, and we decided to handle this transition this way some time ago.

Jon,

We dropped them as too much of a pain. Conventional Fed units replaced them in turn 2. _________________________

Fed builds for turn 7: NCF Manta Ray NAC Triton NSC+ Discovery DWC Isaac Hull DW John Paul Jones (named in honor of a FFG lost earlier in the campaign) DN+ Star League converted to DNG CC+ Enterprise converted to CB NCLa Scharnhorst converted to CLC

DD+ Attila converted to DDGy+(L) FFGa(L) Churchill refited to FFGya(L)

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 04:42 am: Edit

What dice server are you using? Can you tell me the link?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 06:44 am: Edit

David, Dale is talking about the dice in SFBOL. It really has been feast or famine in most of our battles. This last one, it seemed like it was almost entirely famine. I think Dale hit with something like 2 out of 10 bolts fired, and I hit with 8 out of 25 photons (and 3 of those only hit because of a legendary weapons officer). In all cases, the shots were taken from the 1-3 bracket with no EW shift, so the hit percentages should have been a lot better.

I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with the dice server. I know this can happen in real life too. But it is crazy frustrating, particularly when it is not just one or two heavy weapon volleys, but every one.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Something I forgot in my above post. A portion of the Federation F-18 force has been replaced with F-101s. Through spaceframe swaps between squadrons, VF-2, the Bounty Hunters will be operating from the NCV Ranger in F-101s in Y176.

Additionally, 6 F-18s from VF-101, the Grim Reapers, have been replaced with 3 F-101s. Their carrier, the CVS+ Nelson, is scheduled for conversion to a CB (name TBD) during Y176, so the squadron will conduct training operations from the Federation BATS Columbia for the next year (in other words, they are not going to be on the battle line). VF-101 is scheduled to receive its first 3 F-111 spaceframes in Y177 (replacing the remaining F-18s) and will be reassigned to the new construction NVH Hyuga. In Y177, Hyuga is expected to operate a mixed squadron F-101s and F-111s until additional F-111 fighters are available.

Plans for additional future fighter transitions are underway:

In Y177, VA-214, the Black Sheep will transition from 12 A-10s to 6 A-20s.

In Y177, VF-111, the Sundowners will transition from 6 F-18s to 6 F-18Bs.

In Y177, VF-154, the Black Knights will replace 3 of 6 F-18s with 3 F-18Bs.

In Y178, VF-84, the Jolly Rogers will transition from 12 F-14s to 12 F-14As.

In Y178, VA-75, the Sunday Punchers will transition from 6 A-6Bs to 6 A-6Ds.

In Y178, VF-154, the Black Knights will replace its remaining 3 F-18s with 3 F-18Bs, completing transition to the new fighter type.

All told, by turn 9 (Y178), the planned 4th Fleet fighter force is expected to be: 12xF-14A, 12xF-15, 12xF-18B, 6xA-6D, 6xA-20, 6xF-101A, 6xF-111.

All of this assumes that Dale doesn't blow up one of my carriers of course.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Quote:

In Y177, Hyuga is expected to operate a mixed squadron F-101s and F-111s until additional F-111 fighters are available.

Can the NVH even do this? I thought only A-20s and F-111s could be carried on mech links, whereas the F-101, being a "normal" heavy fighter and not a PF substitute, always operated from shuttle bays.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 08:10 pm: Edit

Sheap, this is a bit of campaign artificiality. We're restricted to replacing old fighters in existing squadrons with new ones at a rate of no more than 50% of the fighters on a carrier in a turn. We can swap fighters around once this transition in made, but its no help with F-111s. Dale and I agreed to this one time handwavium on the transition to F-111s. By Y178, the Hyuga will have nothing but F-111s, and the ackwardness will be over. We figure at least this will give us more opportunities to see the F-101 in combat.

Speaking of which, is the F-101 even available in SFBOL as a selectable fighter type? I've never seen a fighter SSD for one.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 08:13 pm: Edit

Turn 8 (Y176) matchups posted! See the link the campaign website in the topic header.

Looks like the strength of the Fed and Rom fleets are pretty much slamming right into each other. The CVA Julius Ceaser may finially get to earn its stripes!

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 08:38 pm: Edit

Another question; Those 'Battle Stars' are not explained anywhere that I can see. What do they do?

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 09:49 pm: Edit

The battle stars are just an honorarium, to show the times the ship has stood and fought in the line of battle. It has no in-game effect.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 09:58 pm: Edit

Wow, looking at these matchups, this promises to be a fun turn. I know Jeremy and I were both getting frustrated with the stasis or "status quo" of earlier turns - such that we even considered letting this one end with the Feds' repulsing of the Roms.

Having talked to Jeremy, 7.23 will be a retreat - the Rom ships will run for the map edge at high speed. With the cloak, the base will self-destruct before it can be captured. End of story there.

That leaves 7.17, 7.18, 7.19, 7.20, and 7.21 to be fought. Jeremy's expressed interest in flying 7.19 first, but that's just because he's happy he finally got the

Julius Ceasar into a fight.

By mutual agreement, we'll probably leave 7.18 to the last.

For campaign considerations, the Feds need to win 5/8 to advance - and have already won 3 by default. The Roms therefore need to win 3/5 remaining battles to hold the first defense line. The Roms cannot force the Feds back this turn, as they would have had to have won 6/8 battles (and have already lost 3 by retreating).

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 10:12 pm: Edit

BTW - input on any of the matchups left to fight are welcome (by both sides).

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 10:15 pm: Edit

Yep, 'Battle Stars' are just an honor we bestow on ships that have "earned their scars". Kind of quick way for folks to tell which ships have seen the most on-map action. This practice goes back to our first Admiral's game, so a few of the Fed hulls have battle stars from a previous life - most notably Julius Ceaser, which started out as the DN Alliance way back when, and the CL+ Macedonia.

Right now, the front running Fed veteran is the NCL Kearsarge. So far, she has survived five battles in this campaign earning her five battle stars. This is a tradition we barrowed from the USN. The top-earning battle star winner in US Navy history: USS Enterprise (CV 6) , which earned 20 out of a possible 43 battle stars in Pacific War.

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Friday, September 19, 2008 - 06:26 am: Edit

Well, I'd leave 7.20 to the end. It looks like a long and frustrating game in the making. Not as much photon firepower available, but lots of drones and gatlings. Looks to me (and my admittedly limited experiance) like it'll be a game of the Rom trying to get to R10 for bolting without running into drones, while the Fed tries to prox down a few shields at range.

7.21 looks interesting, simply becuase I'm curious how the KDRs will perform. 7.20 might have been better off for the Roms if they'd put the KDRs here and replaced them with the carrier group. No way of knowing what they'd have run into tho.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Friday, September 19, 2008 - 05:02 pm: Edit

I don't think we're going to do 7.19 first. I admit, I need some time to figure out what the frak to do against a CVA armed with two SWACs, when I'm flying a primarily-seeking-weapon race.

So it looks like 7.17 or 7.21 will be our starter. Honestly don't much care either way and will defer to Jeremy's preference.

As for 7.20, John, I disagree; for strategic reasons, I doubt this battle will be long (although with the dice luck involved, 'frustrating' could happen in any of these battles).

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Friday, September 19, 2008 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Correction to the above post - The Roms need to win 4/5 remaining battles to hold the line. The Feds only need to win 2/5 to press on to the second Romulan defense line.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, September 21, 2008 - 08:21 am: Edit

Even though the Federation needs to win only two battles to advance (and probably will), all five are important. The more battles the Federation can win now, the harder it will be for the Romulan defense in the next round.

Don't fear the SWACs. Their EW capabilities are similar to a scout's, but they are easy to pick off with long-range phasers. When used in wild mode, they interfere with friendly weapons too, which makes them awkward to use. The dynamic is a little like a single drone using ship trying to employ wild weasels, but it affects the entire fleet. If a drone armed ship weasels, it loses all its own drones; if a fleet uses a SWAC, it loses most of its own drones too!

If the range is long enough that the drones get clear of the SWAC distraction field, then the slow speed of the SWAC may become a hindrance, as long-range battles are often also high-speed battles. Note that a SWAC cannot become wild while towed by tractor, though a SWAC that is already wild will not be voided (almost nothing can void a wild SWAC). Since a SWAC has a basic speed of 8, towing one limits you to 16.

While I've never flown a battle with two SWACs in it, it seems to me that "SWAC ping pong" is more of a theoretical tactic than a real one. With both SWACs on the same ship, it's going to be hard to get them separated enough to be effective, and the one-turn delay between wild activations makes the actual ping-pongery

difficult to execute. And if one of the SWACs gets picked off by phasers it becomes moot.

Brave Romulans might employ mine warfare against a SWAC. A Federation CVA group has a lot of trouble attacking a cloaked ship, whose minelaying capabilities are unaffected by the cloak. Unless there's also a combat variant cruiser in the fleet, the only weapons capable of hurting a cloaked ship will be the photons and ph-1s on the CVA itself, as neither fighters nor escorts have anything to fire at a cloaked ship.

The high cost of the SWAC may also be a factor. I'm not sure how you're handling this, but historically a SWAC costs as much as a frigate (in terms of money, though not in terms of shipyard or crew, of course). Simply allowing your plasma to destroy the SWAC may be worthwhile.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Sunday, September 21, 2008 - 03:57 pm: Edit

I'm not sure long range phasers will get the SWACS that easily. They will be a few hexes behind the CVA probably, and you will be nowhere near that CVA unless you are prepared to get smashed by drones. At best, you are talking a 16-25 shot. At that range, it will take most of the fleets phasers to down a SWAC. Sure, you probably down the SWAC, but 1 turn's phaser-1s is quite a price to pay for doing it. And if the SWAC somehow manages an EW shift against you (does it get small target bonuses?), you might not even blow it up.

By Ezekiel P. Carpenter-Hyland (Admiral_Zekedak) on Sunday, September 21, 2008 - 06:10 pm: Edit

I ran a CVA with 2 SWACS a couple of time while playing the scenario -Radey to the Rescue-. Yo-yo SWACs are not worth the trouble (silly flanking deployments) as getting seeking weapons to fly past escorts a second time is good enough. FYI, I lost the last game when one SWAC was was killed by sniping.

In this case, not having to worry about VPs or disruptor sniping, the Federation will probably be more willing to risk the SWACs. If they are held back and get too annoying, phaser-4 fire from the base will take one down even at range 25. At 60 points each I expect the Feds will just take free U0.0 replacements.

P.S. Can you revisit what happens when advancing through a line is allowed, but bases remains on that line? From what I remember garrisons are set up and battles can even be fought. The reason I bring it up is that the Federation may intentionally leave base stations alive once they qualify for advancement. This forces the Romulans to either soak off valuable ships or let the bases go down undefended.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, September 21, 2008 - 06:54 pm: Edit

I would think that wild SWACS would be much more useful against plasma than they are against drones, simply because of the much shorter range of plasma. Drones will keep closing on the SWACS for several turns, while the plasma fizzles

after a turn or less. With the Roms several hexes in front of the Feds, and the SWACS a few hexes behind, most of the plasma should run out before ever reaching a wild SWAC.

Then again, I've never actually flown with, or against, a SWACS, so my opinion

should probably be taken with a large crystal of sodium chloride.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, September 21, 2008 - 07:19 pm: Edit

On advancing past bases: The rules from the basic Admiral's Game apply. So, if I advance past a base (something I think likely this turn), Dale has the option of leaving ships behind as a garrison. I must then match the number of ships he leaves behind. Once that's done, I can choose to attack, and if I don't, Dale has the option to "sally" and break the seige. If he is successful, I will need to leave two additional ships behind to screen the base on the following turn.

On SWACs and battle 8.19: I will not give away the farm on how I plan to use the SWACs, but keep in mind that I'm attacking a base on a 2x2 map (84x60 hexes with the base in the middle). If I want to bring the prox torps to bear on the base, I need to get to range 30, and the Ph-4s start to be worthwhile at killing SWACs at range 25. Not a lot of margin.

Frankly, I'm really looking forward to using the CVA (and all the toys that come with it). In all of my play in SFB (been doing this on and off for 20 years now), I've only gotten to use a Fed CVA twice, and never against Romulans. As a result, ny personal experience with SWACs is really limited. We'll see.

As for SWAC replacements, I get 1 replacement per turn. So, its possible Dale could kill both in this battle, and even if the CVA is right back on the line next turn, it can only have one. Dale will be getting a similar deal when cloaked decoys become available in a couple of turns. He will get two immediately (at no cost), and one replacement every turn, assuming one of the original two is lost. I assume they will spend their time on his KEs (gods they are a pain to fight in cloaking fleets).

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, September 21, 2008 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Wow, cloaked decoys! I have never used one of those or even seen a battle that involved one.

They frankly seem of very limited use because they are so easily destroyed. It's easy to put ten points of damage on a cloaked ship. (It's ten, right?) Not to mention the limited speed.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 10:52 am: Edit

Yeah, I think cloaked decoys will be most useful with Dale's Eagle Squadron. They tend to spend a fair amount of time under cloak and at relatively slow speed. This

can create situations where fleets get in close, and the distraction of a decoy combined with tight manuevering conditions could be advantageous to the Roms. They would likely be of limited value on most of the Hawks (SPA and larger) and almost useless on a Kestrel (can't cloak and chew gum at the same time).

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 11:45 am: Edit

Actually, the one thing Kestrel's CAN'T do under cloak is go fast, so they could be of some use on Kestrels. But Jeremy's right, the best place for them is on a KE.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 04:16 pm: Edit

Base garrisons - finally a use for those billions of spare frigates! One is led to wonder what they're for, if not this.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Well, they're also for retreating when you have to put at least two ships in every system, but don't have enough to make a meaningful fleet. ;)

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Frigates - when you care enough to send the very best... but don't have the shipyard capacity.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 07:50 pm: Edit

I still think the Fed frigate, in numbers, can be viable against the Roms in this period. That may change once PFs appear, but for now, they still have pretty good firepower for their size, and a squadron of three under the FCR system can still be decent for the 15 points they cost. Odds are when you take three FFGs into a battle of the scale we have in this campaign, one isn't coming back, but they can give good service before they "take one for the team." Better to take FFGs along to take the hit than risk sacrificing hard to replace cruisers.

By Ezekiel P. Carpenter-Hyland (Admiral_Zekedak) on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 08:35 pm: Edit

While the Eagle fleets can use cloak tactics particularly well, ships of this generation appear to get a bad deal in the FCR system. The KE, for example, will cost 12 FCR to field while Hawk and Kestrel ship of equal or much greater BPV costs from 8 (KRB) to 10 (FHs) FCR points. Another example of a 12 FCR ship is the NH, which has the KE something like 190 to 140 in BPV. Apparently the KE upgrade kept all the old communications equipment, making it difficult to coordinate these vessels when in action. It's almost as bad for the WE at 9 FCR, while the BH might even be acceptable at 6 FCR. Then again some Hawk and Kestrel ships slightly outmatch Federation FCR equivalents in BPV, but the FCR is not about matching up BPV anyway. In any case the Federation should be thankful the Romulans pay such a high premium to field KEs.

Overall I like the way the FCR has played out, and despite my initial reservations when first seeing the Campaign Designers Handbook I would strongly consider using it. As you guys have so much experience with the FCR, can you give any examples where modest tweaking of this system might be called for?

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 09:11 pm: Edit

The WE costs 8 FCR in our system. But, I'm not building any new ones, and all the old ones have been bumped up to KEs.

The BH on the other hand is a GREAT DEAL at 6 FCR. If I had my choice I would build BHs instead of SKAs in this game. Best SC 4 ship the Roms have.

As for tweaking the system - we already did, by giving the formula a multiplier of 4 instead of the 5 the book recommends. Just to suit our personal style, in that we didn't want large fleets.

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 06:22 pm: Edit

Jeremy, that's because the Feds have the best FF in the game. There's ships that come close, but none really have that same combination of punch and 1/3 MC.

Though I do notice that DWs and FFBs are slipping into the lineup. Are we going to see the FFGs give way to them?

Actually, I'm surprised by the number of DD variants still in use, especially after you've lost a couple. Of course, 6 are DEs and 3 are SCs, which is probably why I hadn't realized how many there really were.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 06:38 pm: Edit

For several turns, Jeremy had the option to build DDs instead of NCLs, and chose to do so. The reason was simple: at 6 FCR each, they are a steal in the FCR system (as opposed to the 9 an NCL costs). Most of them are now DEs I believe, where they *just* fit in the FCR rules.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Indeed. Over the course of the game, I've passed up the chance to build four NCL hulls to build DDs instead. Of them, two were DERs to support carriers, and the other two were emergency DD+ builds to defend a Fed base. I'd still rather have the NCLs, but under the circumstances, it was the thing to do. The DE was the better choice as an escort than the NEC given the FCR system and the cost, and the base would have fallen without the DDs.

The FFGs is definately starting to give ground to the DW, and to a lesser extent, the FFB. I don't plan to use the FFB in huge numbers, and the DW is, in a lot of ways, very comparible to DDG+ or DDL+ (more photons, fewer ph-1s, fewer secondary weapons, same power) at a higher FCR. The real attractiveness of the DW is the ability to operate in squadrons that bring substantial photon throw-weight.

The DDs are going to continue to get rode hard. The remaining DDs are likely to see a new life as replacement for DDG/DDL loses, and eventually, the DDGs and DDLs may become replacement DEs. The DE/DER is a funny beast - more

firepower than it can really support with only 19 power. The result: no one really dares to get close to one, and it can't really run anything down...which leads to the ships actually having a pretty good survival rate if used a close-in defense ship for a carrier. Life may be different for the DEs escorting the CVA. I doubt we will see another new construction DD at this point, but I will use the #$@! out of the DDs I have.

I don't plan to phase out the FFG. They didn't see much action this turn because I'm trying to push a lot of mass into the line break through the Romulan front rank. However, I expect them to see a lot of use in future campaign turns.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 07:29 pm: Edit

Wish I could get some mileage out of MY frigates for anything other than retreat ships. Sadly, that's where the Feds/Roms differ. The Feds' "sweet spot" is in their smaller ships. The Roms, it's defniitely their big cruisers.

For actual firepower, the best FF I have is the two SNBs I have left. They haven't seen much action.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 07:31 pm: Edit

James,

I generally agree that the Fed FFG is the best frigate in the game, a deserved reputation.

But, just to be "technical," take a look at the WYN Barracuda FF...

I also give alot of credit to the Hydran CRU, but then it's really an FFL.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Dale,

The Seahawk ain't that bad.

I've always liked the K4B too...

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Seahawk-L...mmmmmmmm good

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 07:37 pm: Edit

The problem with the Seahawk (and K4B... heck, K5B and SKA too) is the short-range of the torps. F-torps can't be launched farther away than 10 on a closing opponent, and optimal launch range is 5.

The reason I value the SNB and, most especially, the BH, is the fact they have G-torps. In addition to RANGE, they also gain a lot of flexibility.

Meanwhile, the Fed FFGs can hang back at R30 and contribute prox volleys en masse. ;)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Well...that's why God made cloaks, right?