4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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this post was submitted on 14 Apr 2015

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Please do not vote orcomment when youcome from externalsubreddits.My sister killed on hermission by the MissionPresident's Wife in Portland(self.exmormon)submitted 5 hours ago by [deleted]

I have been debating onwhether to post this or not. It'sobviously a sensitive issue. Idecided that I want to dowhatever I can to warn otherfamilies that these conditionsexist out in the mission field.My sister was enjoying hermission in Portland lastsummer. After receiving someneeded dental surgery she wassent back to work being amissionary for The Church ofJesus Christ of LatterdaySaints. The dentist warned herto contact a doctor if she feltunwell because infection was anunlikely but real risk. When myhard working sister began tohave pain in her mouth shesought permission to see adoctor through the missionpresident's wife. This is worldwide protocol for missionaries.

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You aren't supposed to seekmedical help withoutpermission from your missionpresident. My sister's requestwas denied. She was told totake some aspirin and continuethe work. My sister asked to seea doctor three times over thecurse of 2 weeks. Each time herrequest denied. My sisterreached out to us, her family,through her weekly emailsasking us what we thought sheshould do because she was inpain. Many of us told her toplease go to the doctor rightaway. But, our Momencouraged her to be obedientto the mission president's rules.Anyone who is familiar with themission field rules knows thatobedience without question isdrilled into young missionariesminds. My sister chose to dowhat the mission president'swife instructed. Maybe shebelieved that the missionpresident and wife were led byspiritual inspiration. Maybe mysister thought she would begoing against God by going tothe doctor. Maybe my sisterwas just scared. Finally, thepain got so bad to handle thatmy sisters mission companiontook her to the emergencyroom. Infection had taken holdof my sisters body. She wasseptic and admitted into thehospital for 2 days beingtreated with antibiotics throughan IV. We didn't know if shewould survive that first night.She seemed to be doing muchbetter after medical

4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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clear

intervention and her doctorsreleased her from the hospital.But the infection had held ontoo strong. Within 48 hours ofbeing released from thehospital, my sister passed awayin her missionary apartmentbed while she was asleep. Shedied from infection because hermission president and his wifewouldn't allow her to see adoctor when she was in pain.My brothers went to Portlandand confronted the missionpresident and his wife. Theywere extremely defensive andthey yelled at my brothers toleave them alone. Some of us inthe family want to presscharges. It is difficult to goagainst the church. They canpay for very skilled lawyers. Ourmom doesn't want to pursueany action against the missionpresident because she believesthat maybe it was God's will. Idon't agree.

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Please do not vote or commentwhen you come from externalsubreddits.[–] Mynamesnotsister 1086 points 5 hours ago

Please pursue legal action. Take this story to thepress. Your family may be able to prevent atragedy like this from happening to someoneelse's sister. I am so sorry for your loss.permalink save give gold

Please do not vote or comment when you come from externalsubreddits.[–] firemeboy 484 points 4 hours ago

PLEASE remember that litigation in this situation is not selfish. The church will not

best

4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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change unless there is a reason. Unfortunately, your sister's death is likely not reasonenough. A multimillion dollar lawsuit, and bad publicity WILL give them a reason, andWILL cause change.

Do it for your sister. Do it so this doesn't happen again.permalink save parent give gold

Please do not vote or comment when you come fromexternal subreddits.[–] Ua_Tsaug Fluent in reformed Egyptian 103 points 3 hours ago

Exactly. Even if you don't care about publicity or money, this could do somethinggreater: save innocent people's lives.permalink save parent give gold

[–] [deleted] 2 hours ago*

[deleted]

[+] videogameboy76 comment score below threshold (4 children)

[–] xoanan 62 points 2 hours ago

I've heard when they get sued, they will try to use guilt to reduce the amountsought, be saying things "We will need to pay this with consecrated tithing funds.Shouldn't you be asking for less?" Please don't let them do this to you. You need tosend a message loud and clear that this should ABSOLUTELY never happen again.The safety of all missionaries should be paramount above the work they're doing.permalink save parent give gold

[–] youngseaguy 16 points 2 hours ago

It doesn't even matter if you win. Lawsuits like this are a deterrent and are likely tolead to a change in policy even if it loses in court. It is also an effective way to movethis up the chain within the church. This sounds like the bad actions of two people, Ivery seriously doubt the church condones denying medical care, and the church justmight change policy to prevent it from happening again.permalink save parent give gold

[–] ghodfodder 1 point an hour ago

I think the church instructs MPs to minimize healthcare expenses that thechurch would have to pay. I was also discouraged by my MP from seekingmedical care when I was on my mission.permalink save parent give gold

[–] [deleted] 2 hours ago*

[deleted]

[–] beerob81 2 points 2 hours ago

I don't think she needs to verify this.permalink save give gold

[–] irondeepbicycle I'm riding on a tapir, doing flips and shit 3 points an hour ago

They could use the money to set up a scholarship in OP's sister's name.permalink save parent give gold

4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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[–] tomdarch 2 points an hour ago

Work with your lawyer to get an amount that is appropriate for the situationregardless of it being mission/church related. The the wife of the owner of acompany strongly discouraged an employee from seeing a doctor when it was clearlystated by a dentist that she should do so if she felt pain, and refused repeatedlyover two weeks, that would be very, very serious.

Insist on an amount appropriate for the situation, and use the money to establish orcontribute to a charity in your sister's honor and memory that she would havesupported.

It is insane and appalling that over18s on missions would need permission to see adoctor when they are having clear problems such as pain. A requirement to informthe officials with the mission is silly and inappropriate, but would be an importantimprovement over the current, obviously dangerous approach.

I can't begin to express how sorry I am for your and your family's tragic loss.permalink save parent give gold

[–] eastupward 1 point 42 minutes ago

The power of intimidation. If it happens to one, it happens to others. This storymakes me sick.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Endlessintegrity 1 point 1 hour ago

I believe this is in GODs real scheme. To boycott these assholes!permalink save parent give gold

[–] matt2001 137 points 3 hours ago

As a retired physician, I generally look for reconciliation. However, what you're reportinghere is indefensible. The mission president and family get maids, health care and amansion to live in. The poor kids get shit. The church needs to be held accountable this has to change. I'm also curious why she died two days after discharge. That is a redflag. I saw her picture and felt great sorrow that her life was cut short, and for what?My condolences to you and your family.permalink save parent give gold

[–] ShadeA2 7 points 1 hour ago

I agree . This cannot be swept under the rug and forgotten . This makes me angryto see this negligence happen. If tooth related ( which is most of the time ) Thiscould have been prevented with a Simple tooth extraction or root canal.

As a dentist working in a hospital setting I see patients everyday with facialswellings and infected teeth. Any swelling related to decay or abcess MUST be takenseriously. These infections can spread very quickly in a matter of hours especially inyoung children. Antibiotics will not fix the underlying cause and with overuse canpotentially make the situation worse. I am deeply sorry for your lose. Please reachout and let us know how we can help.permalink save parent give gold

[–] DreadPiratesRobert Former Elder Dread 3 points 1 hour ago

4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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Yeah, I'm just an EMT, but I feel like someone being discharged then dieing twodays later from sepsis is a huge red flag for the hospital as well. OPs attorneys willlikely sue everyone involved, and with good reason.permalink save parent give gold

[–] SoulSherlock GREEK: apostates, meaning runaway slave 2 points 59 minutes ago

Church medical insurance for missionaries is a joke. The handful of times I sawhealthcare providers were in lousy conditions and the care was awful (and I servedstateside). I really hope that the OP pursues litigation, and takes care of theirfamily. This is heartbreaking.permalink save parent give gold

[–] matt2001 1 point 44 minutes ago

They have 80,000+ kids now. That is a big responsibility. They should spare noexpense in caring for them. The Church relies on the faithful to just bow theirheads and not rock the boat.

My daughter served in the Peace Corps. She had excellent health care and aliving stipend. What a difference.permalink save parent give gold

[–] ghodfodder 2 points 57 minutes ago

What does the red flag suggest to you? That the physicians were negligent or thatthe church insurance pushed to get her released early?permalink save parent give gold

[–] matt2001 3 points 49 minutes ago

That needs to be explored. Some questions come to mind.

1. If she was septic, was the cause discovered abscess, osteomyelitis?

2. Was the treatment appropriate and adequate?

3. Was she followed by ID?

4. Did an oral surgeon sign off on her care?

5. Was the insurance company pushing for early release? Follow up?

6. Why would someone be denied access to medical care for weeks?permalink save parent give gold

[–] ARthUrpHilIpdenu It's not a secret combination, it's a sacred combination. 99 points 4 hours ago

This could very easily get the upvote momentum to reach r/all...that would make itpretty public.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Ua_Tsaug Fluent in reformed Egyptian 87 points 4 hours ago*

Especially if it gets linked to /r/bestof. That usually attracts a lot of people.

Edit: Fuck it, I'm linking it.permalink save parent give gold

[–] [deleted] 2 hours ago

[deleted]

4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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[–] Ua_Tsaug Fluent in reformed Egyptian 9 points 2 hours ago

Your points are valid. But I didn't want to criticize her too heavily right now,since (if she's telling the truth), is going through a terrible loss.

As far as verification goes, I saw several posters who talked about a storythey read about a missionary's death in Oregon. Maybe they can providemore information. If OP does take legal action or goes to the media, thenshe'll be forced to provide evidence.permalink save give gold

[–] relevantlife 13 points 1 hour ago*

Here is a missionary blog from last year.

The second post from May 28th seems to CONFIRM the story. In casethe "so called" church contacts this missionary and requests she take herblog down, here is a screenshot of the post.

Also, this obit:permalink save parent give gold

[–] [deleted] 1 hour ago

[deleted]

[–] Pickleburp Broke mission rules and survived to tell about it. 4 points 2 hours ago*

I've been looking, there's nothing. I found a list of missionary deathsfrom car accidents, CO2 poisoning, other accidents/issues. Sometimesmore than one article. Nothing about a missionary dying in Portland,Oregon mission anytime in the past five years.

EDIT: Did find some info, very interesting that there's nothing from Utahpress on it. Maybe because the family isn't from Utah. If this is legit, OPshould take it public. Even the LDS News page for the Portland missionhad no information.permalink save parent give gold

[–] bt2184 2 points 2 hours ago

This is starting to look like a hoax post. I hope not, but there aren't any newsstories verifying the story.permalink save give gold

[–] relevantlife 3 points 1 hour ago

http://crystalboatright.blogspot.com/

The second post from May 28th seems to confirm the story.

Also, this article: http://www.frontiersman.com/obituaries/samanthalierley/article_4f319f90e94911e398790019bb2963f4.htmlpermalink save parent give gold

[–] beerob81 1 point 2 hours ago

You seem to be posting this often in here. Almost like you're protecting thechurch....permalink save give gold

4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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[–] laughingeconomist 1 point 2 hours ago

If you'll look in my post history you'll see I frequent /r/exmormon a lot.permalink save parent give gold

[–] beerob81 3 points 2 hours ago

I'm just shitting with you. This post is totally bogus. I don't thinkanybody would deny a missionary medical access after a surgery.permalink save parent give gold

[–] laughingeconomist 4 points 2 hours ago

If it matters, someone did provide me with the sister missionary'sname and I was able to verify at least the basics of the story, soI'm removing my comments.permalink save parent give gold

[–] INeedFreud 1 point 1 hour ago

So what you're saying is you're a church spy. Are you on thestrengthening church members committee?permalink save parent give gold

[–] laughingeconomist 0 points 1 hour ago

I'm on a committee so super secret that you've neverheard of it. ;)permalink save parent give gold

[–] WyG09s8x4JM4ocPMnYMg 2 points 1 hour ago

Hello from /r/allpermalink save parent give gold

[–] The_Last_Y You want religion, do you? 72 points 4 hours ago

I would happily donate to your fees.permalink save parent give gold

[–] childsbeardthepirate 60 points 3 hours ago

I will be more than happy to donate to a kickstarter fund for attorneys fees as well.OP if you see this, and you decide in the future to pursue legal action make itknown. We are here for you. No one should ever of had to go through this.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Daenr 25 points 3 hours ago

I too would donate for legal feespermalink save parent give gold

[–] dsngltn 12 points 2 hours ago

Me to.permalink save parent give gold

[–] ta9g 12 points 2 hours ago

Me threpermalink save parent give gold

[–] zempter 10 points 2 hours ago

4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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please link to the kick starter if you do.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Sadsquatch 1 point 1 hour ago

You can't kickstart for legal fees.permalink save parent give gold

[–] MeatCommerceAgent 1 point 1 hour ago

Me toopermalink save parent give gold

[–] veryangryj 1 point 56 minutes ago

I would also absolutely donate.permalink save parent give gold

[–] mormonapost8 34 points 3 hours ago*

Seconded. This is such a terrible story and sadly it's not an isolated event. Whatever theofficial policy of the church, mission president's wives typically assume a de factomotherly role in the mission field that usually includes overseeing health problems. I'maware of a case of a missionary who had to undergo double hip replacement surgeryafter his mission because the mission president's wife continually insisted he keepworking despite terrible pain. If I remember correctly, most of the cartilage in his hipshas deteriorated and his bones were grinding together at the joint. This was in amission that required a lot of walking.

It's ridiculous and flatout irresponsible for mission presidents or their wives or anyonewho is not properly trained to be giving medical advice to kids that are not only givingtheir full time to the church but paying for it. The church and individuals should be heldaccountable.permalink save parent give gold

[–] truthdelicious Alma the Sexy 7 points 3 hours ago

Could he himself sue, or would the family have to be on board? Sounds like that latterain't happeningpermalink save parent give gold

[–] AngryPurpleTeddyBear 2 points 2 hours ago

There are a couple different ways a wrongful death suit could proceed in this case,depending on the laws of the state involved. It's possible that OP alone could bringthe suit on behalf of the sister's estate. Unfortunately for OP, that decision oftenrests with the deceased's heir(s)/named executor, and I doubt OP's sister had a will.Absent a will, the administration of the sister's estate will most likely fall to theparents, and it doesn't sound like they'll be willing to pursue a lawsuit.

Source: Am lawyer.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Mynamesnotsister 1 point 1 hour ago

Am I naive, or can he sue for loss of sisterly companionship?permalink save parent give gold

[–] AngryPurpleTeddyBear 2 points 1 hour ago

4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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Again, depends on the state and which causes of action are recognized, butit's highly unlikely. First, many states don't even recognize loss of consortiumclaims. Second, among those that do, most just recognize maritalrelationships as the basis of a claim a small minority also recognize parentchild relationships, but I can't think of a single state off the top of my headthat independently recognizes sibling relationships as the basis for loss ofconsortium claims.

Some other states include loss of consortium as an element of damagesincluded in a wrongful death cause of action, but again, that would have tostem from a wrongful death claim brought by the representative of OP'ssister's estate, which (as I outlined above) will most likely be OP's parents.

TL;DR You're not naive, but it's highly unlikely that OP could independentlybring a claim for any loss of consortium with his sister.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Mynamesnotsister 1 point 1 hour ago

Thanks for answeringpermalink save parent give gold

[–] [deleted] 2 hours ago

[deleted]

[–] eternigator 15 points 2 hours ago

When I contacted friends who served in the Portland mission during the sametime period, they said that they had heard nothing about a missionary in theirmission dying.

I did a bit of googling and found rumors of a sister missionary in the Vancouver, WAmission dying under the same circumstances. The Vancouver, WA mission containsPortland. So I'm not totally writing off the story but I'm still not totally believing iteither.

What I'm saying is that let's not all go after OP and accuse them of being a liar.Nobody's doing that yet but your comment is rising quickly. This has been linked onr/bestof and reddit likes a good witch hunt.permalink save give gold

[–] Pickleburp Broke mission rules and survived to tell about it. 2 points 2 hours ago

No one is going after OP, /u/laughingeconomist is just urging caution.permalink save parent give gold

[–] laughingeconomist 4 points 2 hours ago

I know, I was one of the first ones posting those urges of caution. I'vedeleted them now that I've received verification of the basic story details.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Ua_Tsaug Fluent in reformed Egyptian 1 point 1 hour ago

I actually very much appreciate the caution and skepticism, by the way. Idon't want you to feel like you should be chided for offering a differentview (especially since we often criticize tbms for only looking at one point

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of view).permalink save parent give gold

[–] eternigator 2 points 2 hours ago

I said in my comment that nobody is going after OP. Yet. The problem isthat comments like laughingeconomist's can quickly lead to witchhuntsagainst the OP. Especially when a meta sub like /r/bestof gets involved.That's why I'm urging people to be cautious in the other direction too.permalink save parent give gold

[–] [deleted] 2 hours ago

[deleted]

[–] eternigator 1 point 2 hours ago

I agree completely. I just made my comment because I've seen this sort ofsituation become a witchhunt against OP.permalink save give gold

[–] relevantlife 1 point 1 hour ago

Here is a missionary blog from last year.

The second post from May 28th seems to CONFIRM the story. In case the "socalled" church contacts this missionary and requests she take her blog down,here is a screenshot of the post.

Also, this obit:permalink save parent give gold

[–] eternigator 1 point 1 hour ago

Yep, that's the person who I found the rumors about. But I don't think thatwe should be posting her name here. OP deserves some privacy, in myopinion.permalink save parent give gold

[–] greeken0612 Porn Shoulders 3 points 2 hours ago

Is this the one about Argentina?permalink save give gold

[–] laughingeconomist 1 point 2 hours ago

That's the one.permalink save parent give gold

[–] BibliotecaDeBabel 7 points 2 hours ago

I agree. Pretty surprising that there is no trace of this death on the internet.permalink save give gold

[–] jurroot BYUI do 13 points 1 hour ago

http://www.frontiersman.com/obituaries/samanthalierley/article_4f319f90e94911e398790019bb2963f4.html

http://crystalboatright.blogspot.com/permalink save parent give gold

[–] DrAminove 2 points 1 hour ago

4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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Also, this discussion on an exmormon forum.permalink save parent give gold

[–] veryangryj 1 point 51 minutes ago

Ugh. The cognitive dissonance in these is disgusting.permalink save parent give gold

[–] [deleted] 2 hours ago

[deleted]

[–] BibliotecaDeBabel 5 points 2 hours ago

Ditto. There are plenty of websites that track missionary deaths, andconsidering this was just last summer there is no way it wasn't covered.Unless, the conspiracy theorist in us assumes that the church asked thefamily to stay hush.permalink save give gold

[–] truthdelicious Alma the Sexy 3 points 2 hours ago

We should be skeptical for sure, but I don't think that discussing or gettingmad about something like this makes us look bad. If the church weretransparent, we wouldn't have to rely on such unverified information. Wedeal with what we have. The real culprit is the church that makes sure tocoverup all of its warts.permalink save give gold

[–] [deleted] 2 hours ago

[deleted]

[–] truthdelicious Alma the Sexy 1 point 2 hours ago

Yeah, but the otherside is way worse. Think of all the 3 nephite,miracle, and "I convinced 300 of the any opposers" stories we hearabout all the time.permalink save give gold

[–] nothanks132 3 points 2 hours ago

Please repost this as a top level comment to allow it rise to the top.permalink save give gold

[–] Captain_Blue_Shell 1 points 2 hours ago

She was septic and admitted into the hospital for 2 days being treated withantibiotics through an IV. We didn't know if she would survive that first night.She seemed to be doing much better after medical intervention and her doctorsreleased her from the hospital. But the infection had held on too strong. Within48 hours of being released from the hospital, my sister passed away in hermissionary apartment bed while she was asleep. She died from infection becauseher mission president and his wife wouldn't allow her to see a doctor when shewas in pain.

Yeah, that's complete and utter BS. If she was in sepsis and receiving IV antibiotics,there was no freaking way in the world that a hospital would have let her go homeafter two days.

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permalink save give gold

[–] PresidentNEWSROOM 6 points 3 hours ago

I wish I could upvote this umpteen times!permalink save parent give gold

[–] Ah_Q 2 points 1 hour ago

Attorney checking in.

Sue the fuck out of the Church. Name the MP and his wife as defendants as well.permalink save parent give gold

[–] IM_A_BIG_FAT_GHOST 1 point 35 minutes ago

I've noticed that OP deleted most of their posts...sorry for attaching to the topcomment but I feel that I need to say something. I was a Mormon missionary inJohannesburg South Africa in 1996. I had a medical emergency and experiencesomething very similar to what OP was talking about. The church needs to change theirstandards on how to treat medical conditions for missionaries. Praying about a superserious nut infection is not the answer. Seeing a church doctor three times and havingthem deny you the medical attention that you need is depressing. I actually brokemissionary protocol so that I could get sent home... ended up being rushed to surgeryin the United States once I arrived. I have personal experience in this and I would behappy to answer anybody's questions on the issue.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Raveo 2 points 1 hour ago

A law suit against what? His sister was free to go to the hospital at any time shepleased. What exactly would he sue them for?permalink save parent give gold

[–] Ua_Tsaug Fluent in reformed Egyptian 4 points 1 hour ago

I think you're underestimating just how brainwashed missionaries are. They get"obedience" drilled into their heads constantly. At some point, they trust theirleaders more than themselves, and they treat doubt like it's a weakness (as in, youdon't have enough faith). If you've served a mission, you should know what this islike. If you haven't, take it from a returned missionary: missionaries arebrainwashed in the truest sense of the word.permalink save parent give gold

[–] hamsalad 1 point 1 hour ago

Imagine this scenario: a Walmart employee experiences sharp, excruciating pain inhis abdomen. He tells his supervisor that he needs to go to the hospital. Hissupervisor denies the request and tells him to go to the hospital at the end of hisshift. The employee dies of sepsis as a result of acute appendicitis.

The employee certainly could have left early for the hospital, but didn't due to fearof losing his job. This would almost certainly result in a multimillion dollarsettlement. One thing every manager of every stripe learns: if you exercise yourauthority, you own the consequences.

Of course, this is an unrealistic scenario because even a Walmart supervisor knows

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you don't deny sick people medical attention.permalink save parent give gold

Please do not vote or comment when you come from externalsubreddits.[–] tennder 274 points 5 hours ago

Honestly, I would go to California and get Gloria Allred. Get as much PR and buzz about thestory as possible. the church may have very skilled, polished, expensive attorneys at KirtonMcConkie, but their weak spot is bad publicity. Just make it a circus with media events andnew stories and internet traffic and they would buckle and settle out of court ASAP.permalink save give gold

[–] MorticiaSmith Joseph tried to send Gomez on a mission. 140 points 4 hours ago

People bash her, but many years ago she pro Bono helped my mother keep her jobwhen her employer tried to Fire her for being pregnant with me. All it took was adropping her card on the desk saying next time we are bringing our lawyer.

I've got a pretty soft spot for her.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Latin_Lover 75 points 4 hours ago

It's not about settling or about money! That's what i would like to think op is thinking.The money should be the last thing in mind. What is more imoprtant is to show theworld how the church neglets it's missionary's and members and people in general. Thisshould turn into something more, he should do it for his sister and peace of mind!permalink save parent give gold

[–] tennder 25 points 4 hours ago

the post asked if they should pursue legal action. Legal action will get messy andexpensive quick with the church. Aside from shedding light on the story andhonoring the sister that died needlessly, it will help others being pressured intogoing or feel their child wants to go without acquitted assurance that they would betaken cared for while there. IF the legal case does its job; than yes, the church willsettle ASAP cause they know they are being shown in a horrible light they cantrefute. Its not about the money, correct. But the question was about legal avenuesand those end quickly with settlement if this is done correctly.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Latin_Lover 14 points 4 hours ago

Of course taking any action against a huge corperation has it's financial cost,although if enough evidence is presented any attorney would pick the case upand a third party would get involved to pay off while the case is settled. I thinkit would be taken care by the lawyer, anyone can see that the president was atfault it shouldn't be hard to make a case, although making the othermissionary's come clean about the whole deal could prove difficult. though themedical facility were she was treated should have records about her conditionsand they are forced to give up medical information if it is so needed for court, itshouldn't be hard to convence the doctor to stand in court and present hisfindings, it should be easy for him to show continued neglet, as well as i'am

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aware that op said he had email's regarding her and her continued situation.This case should be easy to file and get a settlement, the thing is now is how opwill go about it. It will cost money, but there are organizations that can helpwith that while the case is settled and to me it seems that op has this case, it'supto him and his family to see what actions they take if any. you are correctregarding your concerns!permalink save parent give gold

[–] vh65 Addicted to Truth and Tea 6 points 3 hours ago

But part of the settlement could be changing procedures to have a doctor orregistered nurse hotline for missionaries, with that person making treatmentauthorizations rather than untrained MP wives.permalink save parent give gold

[–] why_the_lies 35 points 4 hours ago

Yes, and not just neglect, but encouraging naive obedience, making one believe thatdivine will, or leadership 'inspiration', trumps ones own reasoning. The fact that OPsmom could say maybe it was Gods will is evidence of that type of 'faith'.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Ua_Tsaug Fluent in reformed Egyptian 13 points 4 hours ago

Precisely, and it's this type of "faith" that gets innocent people killed.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Echo1883 23 points 3 hours ago

Thats why you demand WAY too much to settle. That way they are forced to eitherpay some stupid amount of money (im talking 500 million) or they are forced to goto court. You can make it so that they can't settle since it simply too much money,and then you get to parade it around the courts for as long as possible while themedia has a hayday with it.permalink save parent give gold

[–] takatori 7 points 3 hours ago

Heyday, actually but now I wonder where the word came from ...permalink save parent give gold

[–] Echo1883 4 points 3 hours ago

Apparently its from back in like the 1500's and it was originally "heyda"which was an exclamation of surprise or happiness. Just googled "heydayetymology"... lolpermalink save parent give gold

[–] AlphaEnder 0 points 2 hours ago

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heydaypermalink save parent give gold

[–] graspingreality 28 points 4 hours ago

This. I got into a tussle with one of the for profit arms of the church once and implied Imight go public with our dispute. I got a call from a KM lawyer and we settled things

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within a few minutes. They absolutely do not want bad publicity.permalink save parent give gold

[–] HANEZ 1 point 2 hours ago

What happened?permalink save parent give gold

[–] morenfin 1 point 1 hour ago

not op, but I'd assume they had him sign an NDA as part of the settlement. I'dbe very surprised if they didn't.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Faith_is_ignorance Hitch slapped 1 point 1 hour ago

You can bet your ass this won't be on the local ksl.com site because this isn't "faithpromoting".permalink save parent give gold

[–] sethra007 139 points 5 hours ago

When my hard working sister began to have pain in her mouth she sought permissionto see a doctor through the mission president's wife. This is worldwideprotocol for missionaries. You aren't supposed to seek medical help withoutpermission from your mission president.

NeverMo here. First, I'm horrified on your behalf, and so very, very sorry for your sister andthe loss your family is dealing with. My heart goes out to all of you and you have mydeepest condolences.

Now:

What the actual fuck? Why?! What possible reason could they have for having such a rule?!permalink save give gold

[–] ARthUrpHilIpdenu It's not a secret combination, it's a sacred combination. 84 points 4 hours ago*

Missionaries go on the church's health insurance, so visits must be approved to becovered. It also acts as a filter to prevent overuse, and I'm sure there's financialpressure to keep use low.permalink save parent give gold

[–] sethra007 60 points 4 hours ago

Missionaries go on the church's health insurance...and I'm sure there's financialpressure to keep use low.

I just felt my stomach twist in knots....permalink save parent give gold

[–] Ua_Tsaug Fluent in reformed Egyptian 40 points 4 hours ago

They really want to protect their own investments. Missionaries are sometimesdenied to even go on missions if they are too overweight or have certain medicalconditions.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Echo1883 21 points 3 hours ago

investments

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cringepermalink save parent give gold

[–] Echo1883 6 points 3 hours ago

And people sometimes ask why I believe the COLDS is a cult.... They pull somereally fucked up shit with missionaries. Lots of other stuff too, but missionariesseem to get it the worst.permalink save parent give gold

[–] filologo 1 point 2 hours ago

I remember reading some stories about people who left the UnificationChurch and thinking about how similar they were to most of the things Iwent through on my mission. As a normal member my experiences couldn'thave been more different, but as a missionary it was shocking how close theywere.permalink save parent give gold

[–] kolobs_bitch 24 points 2 hours ago

Can confirm. Had to have my appendix removed while on a mission in Europe. Aftera few weeks, mission prez sent me to an ob/gyn who said I just needed to takesome hormones. After three more weeks (of horrendous pain), went to see adifferent doctor. Was admitted to the hospital that night and operated onimmediately. The surgeon said my entire insides were infected. Parents were nevertold about it until I called them because I wasn't getting better. Area prez refusedto send me home to see a doctor until my parents threatened him. It was the firstand only time my parents took my side against someone in the church. They werescared for my life. Frankly, I was too. But I did finally get better. It just tookmonths instead of weeks.permalink save parent give gold

[–] kolobs_bitch 17 points 2 hours ago

Also stateside doctor said I might not be able to have children after what hadhappened to my insides. Thankfully, he was wrong.permalink save parent give gold

[–] L0neKitsune 1 point 1 hour ago

This absolutely terrifies me because my appendix blew 3 month after I wassupposed to leave for my mission. Luckily I decided to not go on my mission andstopped going to church instead.permalink save parent give gold

[–] thelinchpin 15 points 4 hours ago

In Europe, we paid cash for missionary health expenses then sent Missionary Medicalthe bill, who would then bill the missionary's insurance company. Missionarieswithout medical insurance received the care they needed acutely but were senthome if there was anything that would require more chronic care.

In the mission office, the "sacred tithing funds" were spent like a bottomless wallet.Because whenever we needed more money, we just requested more money, and

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we'd get it.permalink save parent give gold

[–] kolobs_bitch 10 points 2 hours ago

Copying my comment from above. I served a mission in Europe 197980. Had tohave my appendix removed during that time. After a few weeks of initial pain,mission prez sent me to an ob/gyn who said I just needed to take somehormones. After three more weeks (of horrendous pain), went to see a differentdoctor. Was admitted to the hospital that night and operated on immediately.The surgeon said my entire insides were infected. Parents were never told aboutit until I called them because I wasn't getting better. Area prez refused to sendme home to see a doctor until my parents threatened him. It was the first andonly time my parents took my side against someone in the church. They werescared for my life. Frankly, I was too. But I did finally get better. It just tookmonths instead of weeks.permalink save parent give gold

[–] curious_mormon Truth never lost ground by enquiry. 7 points 3 hours ago

On my misison, the office elders before me did that too. Suddenly the missionwas audited by salt lake, and they were no longer office elders.permalink save parent give gold

[–] dsngltn 24 points 4 hours ago*

Here is a comment by a TBM who is trying to tread carefully while expressing some ofhis concerns with how the church provides health care for its missionaries.

Scroll down to "Health Care For Missionaries: Usually Great, But Some ImprovementMay Be Needed".

A few notable quotes:

In a second and more serious case, a missionary's repeated requests to see a doctorwere allegedly denied by a wellmeaning mission president's wife. She thought thepains in his side might be due to inadequate fluids and recommended drinking wateror Gatorade. He had appendicitis. Fortunately, the missionary is OK now, but Iunderstand that he was worried and unsatisfied with the recommendation from themission mom. His health could have been protected better by making it easier to seea doctor.

And

The mission's screeners had believed the injury to be minor and would not authorizea visit to a physician, even after a couple of concerned local members called variousparties to intervene for the elder. However, Xrays confirmed that the missionary'sinjury was more serious than the mission president's wife and a remote Churchdoctor had recognized, and confirmed that a higher level of care was needed. In fact,the missionary will require surgery (relatively minor, fortunately).

permalink save parent give gold

[–] Tyopa 21 points 3 hours ago

Why on God's green earth is a Misson president's wife giving diagnosis'? Hell nursesin general can't even give diagnosis', and if they do and get it wrong they get their

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asses sued off.

I dare say there's a serious problem with a religion when they care more about theirquarterly statement than human lives.permalink save parent give gold

[–] dsngltn 9 points 3 hours ago

I think this is a pretty standard operating procedure though out the church. Thesick missionary talks to the MP's wife and she passes that info on to a churchdoctor for a recommendation.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Tyopa 2 points 1 hour ago

And why that is a standard procedure confounds me. Like having a missionaldoctor care for the rest of missionaries sounds infinitely smarter.permalink save parent give gold

[–] INeedFreud 2 points 1 hour ago

Hashtag deathpanelspermalink save parent give gold

[–] dsngltn 54 points 4 hours ago*

It's 100% a financially motivated policy. The church is self insured so any medicalexpenses incurred by missionaries are paid by the church. There were many cases onmy mission where missionaries were told to just take over the counter medications todeal with problems they should be seeing s doctor over.

One of many examples I can think of was an elder who was taking a box of Imodium ADa day due to constant diarrhea and painful cramping that lasted for months. This was astateside mission so this was not some bug he picked up in a foreign country;something was wrong with him. He was always on the phone with the MissionPresident's wife asking for permission to go to a doctor, but the answer was always no. Iguarantee you that OP's story is not the only example of someone dying while on theirmission due to the church worrying more about expenses than missionaries.permalink save parent give gold

[–] sethra007 29 points 4 hours ago

It's 100% a financially motivated policy. The church is self insured so anymedical expenses incurred by missionaries are paid by the church. There weremany cases on my mission where missionaries were told to just take over thecounter medications to deal with problems they should be seeing s doctor over...I guarantee you that OP's story is not the only example of someone dying whileon their mission due to the church worrying more about expenses than they aremissionaries.

I'm speechless. I'm absolutely speechless.permalink save parent give gold

[–] desertrat22 27 points 4 hours ago

As I understand, if the missionary has family coverage, they remain under thatprivate coverage, in which case medical needs and appointments are none of the

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church's damn business IMO.

If the missionary is uninsured, then they would fall under the church insurance.

The problem here is that we have adults (missionaries) being treated likekindergartners asking for permission to go take a leak.

So horribly wrong and terribly tragic in this situation.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Paradox760 7 points 3 hours ago

My family had very good medical coverage. Before I left for my mission, mybishop told my Mom to take me off so I could "receive care and instruction underthe advisement of the Church." It's also free, so I think lots of people opt to useChurch insurance.permalink save parent give gold

[–] GeneticsGuy 1 point 38 minutes ago

This is weird, as I went on my mission and just had double insurancecoverage. No one ever told my family or myself to discontinue my insurance.There is such a thing has having double coverage. Very common. I've neverheard of anyone being told to cancel their coverage and just have one?permalink save parent give gold

[–] Paradox760 14 points 3 hours ago

I can absolutely confirm this. I had several medical problems on my mission, and Ioften had trouble getting permission to see a doctor. My mission president's wifeexplicitly told me that the church instructed them to prevent doctors visits unlessabsolutely necessary in order to keep costs down.

I can understand a large organization trying to prevent costs that are completelyfrivolous. However, they have put the decisionmaking power in the hands of peoplewho do not have the medical knowledge required to make such decisions. Mymission president's wife demonstrated this repeatedly. She would frequently makeludicrous assumptions about my medical conditions.

At one point my companion received a serious head wound. Blood was literallypouring out of his head, and we were unable to stifle the bleeding. He soon becamelightheaded, and then began blacking out. I called my president's wife to inform herthat I was taking him to the ER. She told me not to go. She told me that headwounds usually bleed a lot, and that it was nothing to worry about. I insisted that Iwas taking him to the hospital, and told her that she had better have the insuranceside taken care of. Guess what? It turned out to be a serious injury! She laterthanked me for disregarding her and taking care of him.

People like this should not be responsible for these decisions. Being able tomemorize a few medical facts is not a reasonable qualification. More importantly,there is no guarantee that the people in these positions are capable of makingimportant decisions for others. This is especially true when they are pressured bytheir leaders to save money for the church.permalink save parent give gold

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[–] dsngltn 8 points 3 hours ago

The problem is exacerbated due to the fact that Mormons are taught frominfancy to be obedient to church leaders. It's not like an normal job whereemployees have some ability to pressure management to provide better healthcare. Missionaries (including me when I was one) felt it was a sin to activelychallenge church leaders.permalink save parent give gold

[–] articulett 1 point 1 hour ago

Plus there's this idea that "God" is watching out for you... and so you have tohave "faith" or else he might not help you out. If you don't get better it'syour fault for not having enough "faith".permalink save parent give gold

[–] gilbertgrappa 1 point 1 hour ago

Colon cancer? Crohn's disease?permalink save parent give gold

[–] dsngltn 1 point 1 hour ago

I don't know. He never saw a doctor then went home several months later. Ididn't stay in touch with him.permalink save parent give gold

[–] hissho1 14 points 4 hours ago

Compliance. Obedience makes for good compliant robot soldiers.permalink save parent give gold

[–] onlythecosmos 3 points 3 hours ago

To save moneypermalink save parent give gold

[–] HANEZ 2 points 2 hours ago

Why? Answer: $$$$

Everything needs approval by the church leadership. Out of toilet paper and need to goto the store, but its not your "preparation day", that needs to be approved. Of courseyou will be talked to about not using your half off day to get things done.

I once got an ingrown toe nail. Pretty common for missionaries. Walking all day in dressshoes will do that. Had to be "mission approved". Doctor was luckily a member, andmost likely giving the church a discount. Anyways the doc had connections and I didn'thave to wait for a follow up for a procedure.

We rode our bikes home. Yes, that's right, after a foot procedure biked home with a fullbandage on my foot. Foolish right? Well, I was young and naive, of course no oneoffered to help. I sure as hell didn't have enough money to take a bus. Our allowancewas $120 a month in the early 2000's.

I was suppose to rest for a week, but I started working within a day or two. Your arespecifically taught that if you want baptisms / conversions you need to be faithful,obedient and work hard. Jesus cant bless you with baptisms if you don't work. Peoplessalvation are on your hands. That's a huge responsibility for a young person.

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Also, a little off topic. I also got into a car accident while on the mission. We werespecifically trained to remove our name tags after car accidents. We didn't want peopleto take advantage of the situation and think the church had money and take them tocourt.permalink save parent give gold

[–] GeneticsGuy 1 point 40 minutes ago

If this is true, this is pretty negligent. As a former Mormon missionary, this is reallyweird though. If we needed medical attention we never needed to seek permission, wewent and got it. Usually this meant calling and informing them we needed medicalattention on the way or after the fact, but we never had to call and get permission.

I'd also like to point out that it is required to take care of any serious dental work beforeyou can even get approved for a mission. This means you need a dentist that clears youand says you will not need any Dental work while you are on your mission. Thus, manypeople it is often a requirement to get wisdom teeth removed before a mission. If therewere any more serious dental issues that required her to get much needed dentalsurgery, this would have been fairly easy to see. I am serious about this though, thechurch will not approve you to go on a mission with a bill of dental health withdocumentation from a dentist that you DO NOT NEED and will not need any anytime inthe next couple of years. So, this story kind of raises a weird red flag for me... Can OPexplain how she was approved to go?

Also, why would you need to ask the mission president's wife for permission to see adoctor? That is just weird... At the end of the day, you listen to the mission presidentand only the mission president, not the mission president's wife, as she is not themission president. Often she'll chat and talk and give advice and share her personalfeelings and testimony, but she makes zero decisions regarding what to do within themission. This is just how it is laid out. That is why I find it really weird that she wouldbe calling the mission president's wife. I suppose it COULD be something weird like themission president thought he was being nice by letting the female missionaries chatwith his wife in place of him for other issues? I don't know...

Also, this story seems kind of sketchy that even though she may have seemed to havebeen doing better, she wasn't and the hospital released her. Really? Since when dohospitals offer a discharge before checking elevated white blood cell levels and otherscreens and when they see them being too high, which they would have here, theywould not have released her?

Look, maybe this story is true, and if it IS true, absolutely you should take legal action,and this is coming from a Mormon former missionary. But, I am also saying that as aformer missionary, there seems to be a lot of weird things about this story that don'tmake a lot of sense. Can OP link an article mentioning the missionaries death? In SaltLake City, the official church news publishes any and all deaths that occur from peoplewhilst serving on their missions. I'd assume you could find local news articles too. But, Iam struggling to find any news at all about any missionary deaths relating to this girl.There WAS a sister missionary killed recently, in 2015, just early March that died of anE. Coli infection in Argentina. But, nothing about this girl... I checked back 3 years ofMissionary death records, and even searched local news in Oregon where this

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supposedly happened, but I can't find anything.

I am keeping an open mind, so if OP can link something validating this then I willbelieve it, but I can't find anything...permalink save parent give gold

Please do not vote or comment when you come from externalsubreddits.[–] questionr 93 points 5 hours ago

We had an Elder almost go blind in one eye because the mission office wouldn't let him goto a city to see a specialist. For days he was in agonizing pain while the mission nursereassured us that the eye drops she recommended would work. Finally, we stuck him on abus and called the mission office and just said, "He's coming. Find a real doctor." They didfind a doctor, and it was a good thing. The eye drops the mission nurse wererecommending were actually making the missionary's eyes worse, and he would have goneblind in one eye if we hadn't disobeyed the mission rules.permalink save give gold

[–] outofthewoods 40 points 3 hours ago

Lots of stories of missionaries not getting medical help at sickrms.com

I'm thinking of writing up my own story to put on there as well.

Sad to think that missionaries are actually dying so the church can save a bit oddmoney.permalink save parent give gold

[–] TomLambe 1 point 1 hour ago

Sad but not surprising.permalink save parent give gold

[–] ReasonIsMyReligion 1 point 1 hour ago

The eye drops were probably essential oils.permalink save parent give gold

[–] ohokyeah Fear finds an excuse while truth finds a way. 131 points 5 hours ago

I am not a lawyer but I wonder if you have grounds for a civil negligence suit.permalink save give gold

[–] ReturnAndReport 35 points 3 hours ago

I don't know. I'm not a legal scholar myself, but she was an adult and wasn't undersignificant duress not to go to a doctor. She just took someone's counsel not to. Notsure there's a great case here.

Edit: For the record, I think it's fucked up beyond comprehension that they told her notto go to a doctor. But I'm just saying in not sure there's a case for negligence. Theyaren't her guardians.permalink save parent give gold

[–] zqwefty 26 points 3 hours ago

Eh, I would argue that 20 years of indoctrination and brainwashing constitutesduress.

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permalink save parent give gold

[–] ReasonIsMyReligion 3 points 1 hour ago

Good luck proving that in court though. That's all that matters from a legalstandpoint.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Snarfthedstroyer 4 points 2 hours ago

Not hardly. Voluntarily staying in and adhering to the rules of a religion is in noway anything that gets close to "duress." If this story is true and accurate, itcomes down to one adult, who was free to go to a doctor or leave altogether atany time she wanted with no threat at all over her choosing to follow the rulesshe volunteered to operate under. It's too bad she died, but "the president's wifekilled my sister" is beyond hyperbole. OP's sister chose to ignore her medicalproblem until it was too late. That's no one's fault but her own. Sorry if that'scold.permalink save parent give gold

[–] zqwefty 3 points 1 hour ago

I don't think it would hold up in court, but when you're living in thatsituation it feels as though you are under duress, especially if she had neverquestioned her faith in the past.permalink save parent give gold

[–] taco_roco 1 point 1 hour ago

I guess the most important thing then is to investigate the policiesthemselves.

If the people who 'employ' you (is that the proper way to word it?) requireyou to seek permission before actually getting help, and these are the peoplewho cover your health insurance in the first place, there might be somethingthere.

And on the other side of that, if she had gone without their permission,would they have refused to support since she 'broke the rules'?

From a allegedly legal definition I found

Duress also exists where a person is coerced by the wrongful conduct orthreat of another to enter into a contract under circumstances thatdeprive the individual of his or her volition.

permalink save parent give gold

[–] Nick12506 2 points 1 hour ago

Voluntarily

I wouldn't say the first 18 years of the indoctrination were voluntary.permalink save parent give gold

[–] lightQuantum 10 points 2 hours ago

I'd say she certainly was under significant duress not to go to a doctor. Themissionary handbook the rules dictating all of these missionaries' actions on page50 states:

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"If you need medical care, call your mission president immediately. He will knowwhere the best medical care can be obtained. Visits to a physician or other healthcare professional should be authorized in advance by your mission president or hisrepresentative."

When missionaries accept their callings, it's pretty much a contract to follow therules.permalink save parent give gold

[–] TomLambe 2 points 1 hour ago

So are we thinking certain doctors have deals with missionary presidents?"I'll cut you a check if you send all your sick/injured missionaries my way.""Okay sure, I'll write in the handbook that they have to ask me which doctor tosee."permalink save parent give gold

[–] Ua_Tsaug Fluent in reformed Egyptian 2 points 1 hour ago

They usually try to get an LDS doctor to perform the service at a discount (orfor free). I saw this numerous times on my mission. One of my companionswas given free dental care by a mormon dentist. I saw a mormonchiropractor who didn't charge. It appears as though they try to do this inorder to lower the expenditures out of their own pockets.permalink save parent give gold

[–] AngryPurpleTeddyBear 3 points 2 hours ago

Lawyer here would depend on where this all took place. There are definitely somestates with legal precedent more friendly towards the church in instances like this,and others that give a fair amount of weight to the religious authority exerted.

Based on what I know of lawyers and plaintiffs who have gone up against theMormon church, they'll fight you tooth and nail, and they've got way more resourcesthan any individual family. If OP's family brought a suit, I bet the church couldcome up with a pretty significant argument that the majority of the fault lay withOP's sister for not choosing to just exercise her free will and go to the doctor. Thechurch will then lowball a settlement offer with an NDA and then bury OP's family inlegal fees until slightly raising the settlement offer so that OP's family feels like it's arelief to just be done with the whole affair. OP's family will walk away from years ofemotional strife with a relative pittance, and it'll be a big question mark as towhether it'll actually have been worth it.permalink save parent give gold

[–] IamGrimReefer 1 point 1 hour ago

their best hope is probably an out of court settlement.

don't forget her mother told her not to see the doctor, so she could become a codefendant. situation is fucked.permalink save parent give gold

[–] taco_roco 1 point 1 hour ago

Just reposting this here but I did find a definition that may support durress

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Duress also exists where a person is coerced by the wrongful conduct or threat ofanother to enter into a contract under circumstances that deprive the individualof his or her volition.

So I guess it depends on how contract is defined and how the consequence ofbreaking the rule/policy are seen by the Court.permalink save parent give gold

[–] memecompoop 2 points 1 hour ago

I'd say they have a suit against the doctor/hospital as well. You don't release a septicpatient after two days.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Ah_Q 2 points 1 hour ago

Lawyer here. This needs to be a lawsuit.permalink save parent give gold

[–] laughingeconomist 59 points 2 hours ago*

Edit: I can't verify all of OP's story, but at least the basic details appear to be correct.

1) The mission is different.

2) Sister missionary did die last summer after complications of the same surgery, it waskept hushhush and other than a few mentions on missionary blogs, there are no moredetails.permalink save give gold

[–] filologo 8 points 2 hours ago

Yeah, you are right. We should be a bit skeptical until we have more proof.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Aftunnels 12 points 2 hours ago*

If true, the situation as described by OP is really awful and they have my condolences.Having said that, I do agree with you. We need to tread lightly until this is verified tosome degree.

Edit: Looks like it may have been verified to some degree. The mission isn't in Portland,but is nearby. Really sad.permalink save parent give gold

[–] QuickSpore Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the cureloms of war 9 points 2 hours ago

Agreed.

Many of us here are aware of the policy. Many of us have suffered due to this policy. Butjust because the story is plausible, doesn't mean it actually happened.

If real I have nothing but sympathy for the OP. But I do have doubts about whetherthis actually happened or not.

OP If you are unwilling to provide any kind of identifying information to the sub as awhole, could I recommend contacting the Mods or a trusted powerposter like/u/Mythrin and providing this to them?permalink save parent give gold

[–] CasinoDandy 's sword of flaming steal 6 points 1 hour ago*

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Thought I would post the text from the blog in case for some reason it got takendown

There is No Such Thing as the End

It is so hard to express the way I feel at this moment. A couple of days ago wereceived news that a Sister in our mission was in the hospital because of an infectionfrom a root canal. She had never been my companion but we had met and becomegood friends. The next day we had a specialized sister training and she wassupposed to be discharged from the hospital and possibly make it to part of themeeting. However at lunch time we received the news that this dear Sister was nolonger with us and she had pass on.

...I didn't believe it as first, I thought someone was playing a joke. Slowly yet surelythe reality struck. My dear friend, Sister XXXXXXX has moved on. The next coupleof hours were a blur, between tears, hugs, singing and testimonies; the spirit was sostrong, comforting and supporting me in this hour of need. God does not dorandom. In those few hours spent among the other Sisters, I could feel my Saviorsarms around me as I struggled to comprehend what really had just happened. I alsolearn some very important things that I knew, but now I really know.

"Our Heavenly Father...knows that we learn and grow and become stronger as weface and survive the trails through which we must pass." President Monson

The news we received yesterday has to be one of the biggest trial I have faced outhere on my mission. My eyes have been opened to the reality of life, and also the toenabling power of Christ atonement. Because of Him, there is no such thing as theend. Our loved ones may have passed on, but this is not the last time that we willsee them. Christ broke the bands of death and we will one again be reunited withthose that we love and miss. Also we are never alone. Christ has promised us, "I willnot fail thee, nor forsake thee" and I know that He stands by His promises.

Christ not only suffered for our sins, but He also suffered for our infirmities. Or ourpains, our sorrows, our hurt, what ever it is that we have felt, are feeling, or willeventually feel. He has been through it before. He can hold us in His arms andcomfort us in these times of need. I know this is true because I have felt it.Yesterday when I needed Him, He was there. Through the actions of so manydifferent Sisters I was comforted and strengthened.

"And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bindhis people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filledwith mercy, according to the flesh how to succor his people according to theirinfirmities." Alma 7:12

Christ lives! I know that He lives and that He is there for each and everyone of us. Ifelt His loving embrace yesterday multiple times. Our times is so short here on thisearth. So remember "Be a little kinder, hold your loved ones a little closer, tell themyou love them more often, do not take for granted the time you have, remembercontention is useless, commit to do all you can today to follow Jesus Christ" becausewe never know how much time we really have.

‐With Love,

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Sister XXXXXX

Posted by XXXXXXXX at 4:42 PM Wednesday, May 28, 2014 No comments:permalink save parent give gold

[–] I_said_I_wouldnt 2 points 1 hour ago

It's probably a good idea to post the text because the blog may crash with allthis traffic, but I think it would be kinder to redact the names. OP probably hadher reasons for not providing the specific location and obituary link etc (if it wereme, those reasons would include not wanting to have my name outed on redditwhile I was simply asking for advice on a legal question).

Respectfully, I think you should consider redacting the names until such time asOP decides to declare her sister's name.permalink save parent give gold

[–] CasinoDandy 's sword of flaming steal 2 points 35 minutes ago

Hi There

I take your point and have modified my comment accordingly.

It seems the post itself has been deleted, but I have still made the changesso that anyone in my comment history won't see it, however unlikely.permalink save parent give gold

[–] I_said_I_wouldnt 1 point 24 minutes ago

Thanks, I appreciate your validation of my opinion very much. :)

Unfortunately the whole thing seems to have spun out of control,probably way beyond what OP was expecting. She deleted her twitteraccount and I suspect she'll take a step back from social media in generalbecause it's pretty easy to find her.

I really hope she's okay. This tragic event was bad enough, but toaccidentally doxx yourself online by providing searchable informationbefore you're ready... well... I really hope she feels safe confiding in herfamily to get through this, and then hopefully a lawsuit will bring someclosure for all of them.permalink save parent give gold

[–] jurroot BYUI do 4 points 2 hours ago

http://crystalboatright.blogspot.com/permalink save parent give gold

[–] laughingeconomist 3 points 2 hours ago*

I agree completely, and if OP provides the verification to the mods then I would bemore than happy to remove all of my comments on this thread.

Edit: Verification was found.permalink save parent give gold

[–] tyler611 4 points 2 hours ago

I have a close friend serving there now. I will ask her if someone died recently.permalink save parent give gold

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[–] laughingeconomist 3 points 2 hours ago

Someone already provided me with some evidence it happened in a differentmission than the one that OP stated, but it appears to have happened.permalink save parent give gold

[–] tyler611 2 points 2 hours ago

Good to know! Thank you.permalink save parent give gold

[–] too_much_to_do 3 points 2 hours ago

This definitely needs to be higher. Tragedy if true but let's not put the cart before thehorse.permalink save parent give gold

[–] SammyJankins 2 points 2 hours ago

Can any details be shared on how it was verified?permalink save parent give gold

[–] laughingeconomist 6 points 1 hour ago

Yes. Someone sent me links to multiple mission blogs that mentioned the death of asister missionary as a result of complications of mouth surgeries. The obituarieswere very vague and there were no news stories about it.

So the verification is that a sister missionary did die and it appears to have beenkept hushhush. It is plausible that the rest did happen, but there is no verificationon that.permalink save parent give gold

[–] SammyJankins 3 points 1 hour ago

Thank you. It's odd because usually missionary deaths generate news articles.The fact that this one did not, stinks to high heaven IMO.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Fishing_Idaho Sundays are for fishing 1 point 1 hour ago*

I just stumbled on those same links. There's also a thread on RFM from lastOctober discussing that woman's death from oral surgery.

Edit: The timeline would fit too.permalink save parent give gold

[–] drpeterfoster 2 points 2 hours ago

Everybody loves to hate. There is no proof of this story, and facts don't add up. Dyingtwo days after release from a hospital after IV antibiotic treatment sounds verysuspicious... She surely would have been on prescription antibiotics for at least a weekfollowing release, so relapsing into sepsis would be very unlikely.

OP needs to verify.permalink save parent give gold

[–] laughingeconomist 7 points 1 hour ago

There are several mission blogs that mention a sister missionary dying aftercomplications from oral surgery. The obituaries for that missionary are vague, as are

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the mission blogs, and there was apparently no media coverage. Members in thearea where it happened heard rumors, but nothing concrete.

My conclusion is that the basis of the story is correct, but the details might not be.But could be true. If you would like links to the mission blogs PM me.permalink save parent give gold

[–] KodosKang1996 1 points 2 hours ago

OP seems to indicate that it is 'worldwide protocol' to go through the missionpresident's wife for these medical clearances. This is simply not the case.permalink save parent give gold

[–] I_said_I_wouldnt 3 points 1 hour ago

The next sentence after the portion you're quoting from is, "You aren't supposed toseek medical help without permission from your mission president."

She's not saying that going to the mission president's wife is protocol, she's sayingthat you have to go through the presidency to get permission. And maybe shegeneralized when she said "worldwide", but she's not wrong to imply thatmissionaries have to go through their leaders before seeking medical treatment.

I've seen the same thing mentioned dozens of times on r/exmormon and my bfexperienced a very similar trauma with delayed treatments and accusations ofhypochondria for a severe illness while on his mission.permalink save parent give gold

[–] KodosKang1996 1 point 1 hour ago

Yes, getting medical clearance is a worldwide protocol. I just wanted to clarifythat it's not a requirement to involve the mission president's wife.permalink save parent give gold

[–] I_said_I_wouldnt 2 points 1 hour ago

Ok.

If she had put a colon between "This is worldwide protocol" and "You aren'tsupposed to seek medical help without permission from your missionpresident.", it would have been clearer the sentence preceding was justpart of telling what happened, rather than being tied to the protocol remark.

We're all on the same page now.permalink save parent give gold

Please do not vote or comment when you come from externalsubreddits.[–] YoungModern 83 points 4 hours ago

Please try to contact Peggy Fletcher Stack about this. She could bring media attention thatshames the church into settling.permalink save give gold

[–] ARthUrpHilIpdenu It's not a secret combination, it's a sacred combination. 32 points 3 hours ago

I emailed her a link to this post. Others doing so wouldn't hurt.

pstack@sltrib.com

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https://twitter.com/religiongalpermalink save parent give gold

[–] Fast4ElizabethSmart 2 points 2 hours ago

I thought you meant "email Peggy STACK!!" (Like "right now")permalink save parent give gold

[–] Jesin00 6 points 1 hour ago

That's "stat".permalink save parent give gold

[–] YoungModern 2 points 1 hour ago

Be kind. I don't know if you downvoted, but I'd like to let people know thatthere's no cause for downvotes, only gentle correction.permalink save parent give gold

Please do not vote or comment when you come from externalsubreddits.[–] 4blockhead Λ [M] 54 points 2 hours ago*

Moderator's statement: We assume good faith posting, and have no reason to doubt theveracity of the OP. However, the subreddit has no independent means of fact checkingthese statements. The basic facts of where and when are left to others, including mediaresources with fact checking abilities. The OP has asked whether to pursue this as a legalmatter and has received input on both sides. Please, do not add additional context beyondwhat the OP has provided without providing proof, or contacting the mods first.permalink save give gold

[–] jurroot BYUI do 11 points 2 hours ago

http://crystalboatright.blogspot.com/permalink save parent give gold

[–] 4blockhead Λ [M] 7 points 1 hour ago

I think this weighs towards believing the OP. Again, we give people the benefit ofthe doubt. The community expressed skepticism, and this doesn't provide iron cladproof. However, I think this information should stand. It is a public blog post thatshows that sister missionaries do pass away on their missions, and sometimes, itmay go relatively unnoticed by the media. Again, the moderator team is notweighing in certifying that this is the exact case, etc.permalink save parent give gold

Please do not vote or comment when you come from externalsubreddits.[–] truthdelicious Alma the Sexy 0 points 2 hours ago

can you post this to the top? Everyone is overreacting to a unverified story.permalink save parent give gold

[–] 4blockhead Λ 2 points 2 hours ago

Not that I know of.permalink save parent give gold

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[–] FearlessFixxer Evil Apostate/Regular Dude...depends on who you ask 68 points 5 hours ago

I am tearing up reading about this.

Absolutly unacceptable!

The church has a responsibility to make sure missionaries get medical.

If I am you, I sue their asses off.

Have you spoken to a lawyer?

Btw. Was there any media coverage of your sister's death?permalink save give gold

[–] jdovew nullius in verba 45 points 5 hours ago

I remember reading about your sister, but hearing your experience just further emphasizeshow broken the system is.

You should absolutely sue.permalink save give gold

[–] SammyJankins 22 points 4 hours ago

Where did you read about it? I can't seem to track down a news article about it.permalink save parent give gold

[–] jdovew nullius in verba 18 points 4 hours ago

Someone here linked a story about a sister missionary in Portland dying on hermission. I assume it is the same person, but I may be wrong.permalink save parent give gold

[–] SammyJankins 5 points 3 hours ago

Do you mean 'here' as in /r/exmormon? Can you tell me a timeframe or anykeywords to help refine my search? I searched the aubreddit, but I haven'tfound it yet.permalink save parent give gold

[–] jdovew nullius in verba 5 points 3 hours ago

Yeah, I thought I read it here on the sub, but I can't find anything either.Hmmmm, maybe I read it somewhere else and am remembering wrong.permalink save parent give gold

[–] danish_lamanite More Jewish DNA than the Native Americans! 41 points 5 hours ago

IANAL: Sue! I am so sorry, but this is gross negligence and there is no excuse for it.Hopefully, this leads to churchwide changes in medical care procedures for fulltime youngmissionaries. I did finances (e.g. paying medical bills) in the mission office for eight monthsand saw some hypochondriac missionaries try to game the system to get out of doingmiserable work. But I saw just as many missionaries with real health problems including afew that had gone far too long before getting treatment. My MP and his wife were prettyreasonable, but I could see how it could become yet another leadership roulette game withdevastating consequences.permalink save give gold

[–] curious_mormon Truth never lost ground by enquiry. 10 points 3 hours ago

We had a 90 year old doctor / former stake patriarch who would cure cancer spots with

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a blow torch and other oldschool medicine. Our MP's wife was amazing though. She wasfurious, and things changed almost immediately once she found out.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Zelph_ 35 points 3 hours ago

I am an attorney, but I am not licensed in Oregon. In most states, both the parents andthe siblings are able to sue for wrongful death if the person was not married. You need to atleast consult with an attorney who is licensed in Oregon. Please PM me if you need areferral to a good attorney and I will find you someone who will speak with youfor free.permalink save give gold

[–] RdawgTheProgrammer Young Apostate 2 points 1 hour ago

Why is this not higher up?permalink save parent give gold

[–] dsngltn 14 points 3 hours ago

The Sick RM's website, just to show that this is not an isolated incident, but a deliberateLDS Church policy.permalink save give gold

[–] greeken0612 Porn Shoulders 5 points 3 hours ago

Reading these stories is absolutely disgusting. How the hell does anyone still have their"faith" after being treated like that from mission presidents, companions and family?permalink save parent give gold

[–] Wantmytithingback 24 points 4 hours ago

This needs to receive media attention. Please go public with this.permalink save give gold

[–] Moruitelda 12 points 1 hour ago

I'm a civil defense lawyer and think that a lot of inappropriate lawsuits are filed by peopletrying to make a buck.

This one's not. Contact a lawyer. If the lawyer thinks you have a case, sue. This wasincredibly irresponsible and there should be consequences.permalink save give gold

[–] ladayen 2 points 1 hour ago

I dont understand on what grounds you would file a lawsuit though. They didn'tphysically restrain her and eventually brought her in themselves. She could have goneto a doctor at any point but choose not to.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Moruitelda 2 points 1 hour ago

Physical restraint isn't an element of wrongful death. But the law may vary by state,which is why they should see a local lawyer.permalink save parent give gold

[–] cloistered_around 21 points 4 hours ago

She was under extreme pressure not to see a doctor despite what she wanted, what most of

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her family wanted, and what her medical professionals wanted. One might even say she wascoerced not to see medical help.

I can't say what you should do, OP, but I'm so very sorry you've lost a sister this way. =(Condolences for your family's loss.permalink save give gold

[–] Latin_Lover 32 points 5 hours ago

Press charges, do it for your sister! They didn't even feel bad about what they did to yoursister! How many more missionary's will they kill. Start a fundraiser if you need money, iwill gladly donate!permalink save give gold

[–] TotesMessenger 20 points 3 hours ago*

This thread has been linked to from another place on reddit.

[/r/atheism] The darker side of Mormonism: /u/sadieswall tells a heartbreaking storyof how her sister, as a Mormon missionary, was denied permission from her leaders toobtain medical attention, which ultimately lead to her death.

[/r/bestof] The darker side of Mormonism: /u/sadieswall tells a heartbreaking story ofhow her sister, as a Mormon missionary, was denied permission from her leaders toobtain medical attention, which ultimately lead to her death.

[/r/undeleteshadow] [#19] My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President'sWife in Portland [exmormon] 379 comments

If you follow any of the above links, respect the rules of reddit and don't vote. (Info / Contact)

permalink save give gold

[–] UtahLegal I will go down 20 points 4 hours ago

Definitely a lawsuit. If you message me I can refer you to a good ExMo attorney in Salt Lakewho can handle that lawsuit. The problem is that if they are TBM your family may notsupport that and they would need to be the ones filing it.permalink save give gold

[–] The_Accountemist 19 points 5 hours ago

How terrible!! I agree with you, legal action should be made. I've heard, though, when legalaction is brought against the church, higher ups ask your bishop and stake president topester you to reconsider. It all makes it a huge dilemma.

I'm sorry to hear about your loss. I hope your mother can see how wrong the missionsystem is, even lethal.permalink save give gold

[–] sinistriel 20 points 5 hours ago

This kills me to read this. I finally got the help I needed for my ailment but the similaritiesin this are making me nauseous. My MP and his wife told me my condition was because Iwas sinning and it took awhile to get the help I needed. I'm so sorry for your loss.permalink save give gold

[–] superluminal LOUD LAUGHTER 15 points 4 hours ago

My MP and his wife told me my condition was because I was sinning

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Holy. Shit.

One of the worst things is how freaking believable it is. I'm glad you finally got the helpyou needed.permalink save parent give gold

[–] sinistriel 4 points 2 hours ago

Wasn't easy. I had to get my parents and stake president from home to get the ballrolling.permalink save parent give gold

[–] MissionPrez 19 points 5 hours ago

Oh my gosh. Something really should be done about this. There should be consequences,even if it is just public shaming.

On the other hand, I respect your right to choose how to handle everything. The mostimportant thing is your family do what is right for them.

Edit: you can still sue even if your mom doesn't want to. Just don't wait too late statute oflimitations.

I would talk to a lawyer. They'll do it for free, and you don't have to tell your mom. Just askthe lawyer what your options are.permalink save give gold

[–] whitethunder9 The lion, the tiger, the bear (oh my) 19 points 5 hours ago*

Sorry to hear about your sister. If you get the media involved and a good law firm, theywill pay up. Guaranteed. Their image is their god and they will not let you tarnish it oneway or another, even if it involves giving you a large settlement.permalink save give gold

[–] valadil 9 points 3 hours ago

Maybe it's gods will that you sue the shit out of them.permalink save give gold

[–] spacepenguin11 8 points 2 hours ago

Upvoted, but this is going to need some sort of verification.permalink save give gold

[–] jurroot BYUI do 6 points 2 hours ago

http://crystalboatright.blogspot.com/permalink save parent give gold

[–] RichardGANGSTAScot Ride or Die 15 points 4 hours ago

Remove this post and contact an attorney today.

This is a wrongful death case, especially if you have emails to back it up. The church willsettle. They don't want the bad press.permalink save give gold

[–] Jake451 22 points 4 hours ago*

The only thing that makes this fucking cult act with decency is the threat of publicshaming. This needs to be exploded into the mainstream media focusing on how a culture

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of extreme obedience for Mormon missionaries results in horrors of this kind. If it were me,I would sue not only the church but the MP and his wife personally. These monsters areunworthy of the power they hold over impressionable young people. NOBODY should havethe right to prohibit someone else from seeing a doctor.permalink save give gold

[–] lejefferson 13 points 4 hours ago

You need to inform the media of this story. People should know what happens to thesupposedly watched over by God missionaries. I have suffered life long medical issues fromwhat I went through on my mission. Don't go through this alone. Let your sisters death notbe in vain. This could help save the lives of countless other missionaries who have a boredUtah housewife in lieu of a medical doctor.permalink save give gold

[–] [deleted] 4 hours ago

[deleted]

[–] 4blockhead Λ [M] 3 points 3 hours ago

I am removing this at this point, because of nonconfirmation from the OP.permalink save give gold

[–] AviusQuovis CTR Confuse The Righteous 6 points 3 hours ago

I'm so sorry. You might get a more solid legal evaluation by posting to /r/legaladvice . youmight have to explain more of the churchspecific organizational oddities, but they givelegit advice. Make sure to include the applicable states in your post title.permalink save give gold

[–] sheepboy 7 points 3 hours ago*

This is terrible. Adding my personal story: On my mission (Australia 19981999) I crashedmy bike and banged up my knee which I thought was just surface abrasions and that Icould walk it off. A few hours later my knee had doubled in size so spent the following 34hours trying to call the mission home but couldn't get through. The next morning triedagain and got an answer (turns out they had the phone of the hook for a meeting andforgot to put it back on) and was told just to take painkillers and wait it out. Spent the nexttwo weeks in bed only getting out to struggle to walk to the toilet. After two weeks anothernearby missionary who had an established medical condition was going for a checkup at aprivate hospital so the MPs wife said I should go with him and have a my knee looked at.The doctor took less than a minute to say he needed to admit me. Tried calling the missionhome for the next hour to get approval and the doctor decided he would have to transferme to a public hospital which didn't require insurance approval so I could get the urgenttreatment I needed. Had an operation and spent the next week in hospital and a monthstaying with a local member. Was supposed to have regular checkups and rehab which MPswife said not to worry about and the doctor told me not to ride my bike for a few months sothought they would put me in an area with a car but MPs wife said I would just have towalk everywhere. Two months after the operation my knee was still inflamed and finally gotpermission to see the doctor again and I got a round of antibiotics which finally killed theinfection. To this day my knee is not 100% and randomly gives me pain but I guess I canat least be thankful I got out alive.

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I was very disappointed with my treatment 17 years ago but thought I was just unluckywith the phone calls but to hear this is common and has lead to death just makes me sick.The LDS church is disgusting and the whole world should know.

Edit: I would also happily donate to a legal fund if it comes to that.permalink save give gold

[–] ktall Just sitting here idolizing the Truth 6 points 4 hours ago

I can't believe they didn't apologize. Take this to the press!permalink save give gold

[–] TommyMonsoon Swipe Right. Match. #TinderMercies. 5 points 3 hours ago

I'm so sorry. So sorry. I'm sure you will make the right decision.

My brother also died on his mission (though not under similar circumstances) so I knowsome about the specific pain of losing a sibling that way. Please PM me if you ever want totalk.permalink save give gold

[–] MommaJo 6 points 3 hours ago

I hate the words God's will. Pisses me off no end.permalink save give gold

[–] jackmormon4023 5 points 3 hours ago

I am so sorry. The church should be sued so the system changes. By going after them youmay save someones life.permalink save give gold

[–] megustamucho26 5 points 3 hours ago

Press charges or stuff like this will continue to happen. On my mission I hadamoebas...what was I told to do? Drink Pepto bismol. Nothing happened. Called the missionnurses and they weren't worried about it at all, just said to continue the Pepto. A localmember lied and got me into a free clinic where they tested me, told me it was amoebasand what medicine to take. A small and insignificant example I know but TSCC doesn'twant to spend tons of money taking care of their own missionaries out there, which Ibelieve is shameful. This story is awful and my condolences to you and your family.permalink save give gold

[–] IchiroKertzec 1 point 2 hours ago

This is what I feel as well. People should never ignore doctor's advice for any reason, letalone be forced or religiously obligated to. Regardless of how one feels about the church,this is a policy that must change otherwise there will be more deaths like this. No onedeserves that. No one.permalink save parent give gold

[–] HircinesHandmaiden 6 points 1 hour ago

Your MOTHER...thinks it is GOD'S WILL her OWN DAUGHTER died from a PREVENTABLEMEDICAL CONDITION whose TREATMENT was denied to her. That is literally the farthestthing from God's Will!permalink save give gold

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[–] vyrtus 12 points 5 hours ago

That's so terrible. I'm so sorry for your loss. You should definitely sue them. Talk to alawyer. Negligence.permalink save give gold

[–] newnamemiriam 11 points 4 hours ago

Contact the Oregonian: http://www.oregonianmediagroup.com/contact/contactnewsteam/permalink save give gold

[–] sluttygrizzlybear 10 points 4 hours ago

Take this story to the press. Privately if you have to. People need to hear this and moreimportantly your sister deserves justice. I am so sorry.permalink save give gold

[–] OneMoreLuckyGuy ThisIsMyNewFlair.com 10 points 4 hours ago

Dude, this is a horrible story. And fuck the church's legal army.

They were in a position of authority over your sister, they denied her health care multipletimes, she died as a result of it. They need to be held accountable.

I'm so sorry to hear this story. But thanks for being willing to share it.permalink save give gold

[–] SammyJankins 5 points 4 hours ago

Were any news articles published about it? How long ago did this happen?permalink save give gold

[–] [deleted] 2 hours ago

[deleted]

[–] SammyJankins 3 points 2 hours ago

I think without at least some corroborating evidence we should be skeptical of thisstory. It's probably too late for this thread, perhaps a new post would be advisableto make people aware there is reason to doubt the story.permalink save give gold

[–] jurroot BYUI do 2 points 1 hour ago

http://crystalboatright.blogspot.com/permalink save parent give gold

[–] laughingeconomist 1 point 2 hours ago*

Maybe, someone just sent me a message and said that they heard about thisfrom a different source. If they can verify the story then I will delete all of mycomments.

Edit: Verification found.permalink save parent give gold

[–] JosephsMyth 4 points 3 hours ago

I wonder how many priesthood "blessings" were issued in lieu of much needed medicalintervention.permalink save give gold

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[–] anditwaslove 4 points 3 hours ago

Our mom doesn't want to pursue any action against the mission president because shebelieves that maybe it was God's will.

I'm sorry but wow. How brainwashed does one need to be to believe your daughter's easilypreventable death was "God's will"? Sickening. PLEASE take this story to the press. Make abig fuss until the church have no option but to answer your questions and change protocol.permalink save give gold

[–] Ua_Tsaug Fluent in reformed Egyptian 1 point 1 hour ago

Maybe it's some kind of coping mechanism? She doesn't want to believe the harshreality that faulty leaders prevented her daughter from getting the care she needed?Because then she'd admit that they weren't called of God, or that God wasn't watchingover her daughter, and going down that rabbit hole might be too much for her. She'drather simply believe it's all part of some celestial plan. That fantasy sounds so muchmore appealing than what actually happened.permalink save parent give gold

[–] timcharper 4 points 3 hours ago

I almost killed myself on my mission, I didn't seek the medical help I should have and wassick for >50% of it (with pneumonia, bronchitis, etc.). I've had many issues with my lungssince then, and wonder sometimes if they stem to not treating infections in my lungs. I amlucky that I didn't die. I kept saying, "my body feels dead, but my spirit has never beenmore alive", as if that's a good thing. Worse, I worked door to door, nearly a walkingdeadman, because I was showing my faith in god.

Holy shit I was delusional. It's probably why I have such an aversion to religion now,because (amongst many reasons) I think it taught me to think in a way that nearly killedme (and, put others at risk).

:(permalink save give gold

[–] PresidentNEWSROOM 4 points 3 hours ago

I have issues related to my concussions (two) on my mission. Mission president didn't wantme to see a doctor unless absolutely necessary. This was 20002002 and I still suffer theeffects from it (shortterm memory problems and anger/depression).permalink save give gold

[–] Nolongerindoctrinate 4 points 3 hours ago

Thanks for sharingpermalink save give gold

[–] filologo 4 points 3 hours ago

Oh wow. I am so sorry that you are going through this. Fuck that lady and fuck thisreligion.permalink save give gold

[–] ZeroStatic Korihor was the good guy. 5 points 3 hours ago

Like others have said, press legal charges and contact media. If not for yourself, do it forfuture missionaries who may end up in a similar predicament.

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[–] mechtech 4 points 3 hours ago

I'm jumping on the bandwagon at this point, but please do everything in your power toensure this won't happen again via legal action and getting this story out.

Do it for your sister, for your family, and for all of the future mormons that will findthemselves in similar danger.

The whole system needs to change. Having nontrained mission leaders control medicalpolicy is dangerous and leads to death.permalink save give gold

[–] B_Bast 4 points 2 hours ago

This is why atheism is a thing.permalink save give gold

[–] MightyTaint 9 points 4 hours ago

she sought permission to see a doctor through the mission president's wife. This isworldwide protocol for missionaries.

What the living fuck?permalink save give gold

[–] Ua_Tsaug Fluent in reformed Egyptian 12 points 4 hours ago

That's seriously how it is. I hurt my back pretty badly on my mission, and I wasn'tallowed medical attention until my mission president gave me the OK. They usually tryto contact members and get them to do it for free. I had one companion who got freedental care from an LDS doctor, and I saw an LDS chiropractor. It seems like TSCC willtry to weasel their way out of having to pay for anything if they can.permalink save parent give gold

[–] MightyTaint 4 points 4 hours ago

How this can't make members go "WTF?" is beyond me.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Ua_Tsaug Fluent in reformed Egyptian 8 points 4 hours ago

Unfortunately, most members will see this person as a "bad example" of what aMission President should NOT do, and overlook the deeper issue of makingmissionaries ask their leaders if they can see a doctor. It's beyond ridiculous.Even in basic training, (where you have to get permission to take a shit) themilitary will not make you ask someone else for medical attention, becausehealth and safety comes first! This just goes to show how little TSCC cares aboutits own salesmen by making their requests for medical attention to be arbitrarilydetermined by some fucking cult's lapdog.permalink save parent give gold

[–] thebumm 8 points 2 hours ago

First off, it is well documented that I defend the LDS church (on reddit) from undue hatredand bigotry. This post is NOT unearned hate. This is a very real and very big problem inmany large organizations, the LDS church being just that. It also is an issue I myself hadwith the Mormon church (similar circumstances, different tragic outcome).

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Normally I would say go after legally speaking the Mission President because in allreality, he didn't check with anyone. He didn't check with God or the prophet or anyone, he(or his wife maybe) just denied the request. The request is meant to be out of respect forthe process and in no way is supposed to be stonewalled. It's supposed to serve asnotification rather than formally asking. That's abuse of power on MP's fault.

Normally. I think he will be protected by the church lawyers, so it has to be the church. Youguys have to. Even if we give the whole church the benefit of the doubt (like I mentionedabove, likely is just MP) they have to be made aware of this guy abusing his position andget him the hell out of there. These are young people that are being "guided" and if any ofthat socalled guidance is abused, more bad things will continue to happen.

TL;DR I defend the church at times, this is NOT one of those times. Go get 'em. Please,go after this.permalink save give gold

[–] tksmoothie 8 points 4 hours ago

Too much of this goes on with mission presidents wives playing doctor. I was feeling likedeath in Mexico at the beginning of my mission. Every time, 'elder TKSmoothie, drink morewater'. I of course was super obedient and trusted her counsel. With a 103 temp mycompanion finally took me to an emergency room in Mexico against the presidents wishes.Thyphoid Fever from all the bad water I was told to drink!

Bet part was dropping my pants for one of the giggly sisters in the ward to administerpenicillin shots in my bum :)permalink save give gold

[–] Iamstuckathope 8 points 4 hours ago

I'm so terribly sorry about this. First, I want to say that the Church should pay dearly forthis.

Of course I don't mean to give any legal advice through this comment and nobody shouldrely on this comment for anything, but this case would be simple/straightforward, but noteasy. There are a lot of factors at work, and I think a lot would depend on the specifics ofOregon law and the approach of the judge/jury.

The MPs wife was an authority figure, but does she have a special legal duty in this case?Did she indicate payment for services would be refused? Any explicit retribution if themissionary went to the doctor?

Is it reasonable under the law to rely on an untrained church leader for medical advice? Isthe implicit threat of discipline enough to count as coercion? Was the MPs wife giving clearorders, or was she giving a mere opinion?

The Church's behavior in this case is certainly disgusting, and knowing what I know aboutthe Church, I think the Church deserves to be slammed for this, but it would be a strangecase to litigate. If you could survive until trial, I imagine you could get a lot of sympathy forthe Jury, especially if you spelled out the idea that strict obedience is required to be withyour family after you die.

My guess is the Church's lawyers would push for a settlement. They certainly don't want toset a precedent either way. If your family wins, it shows the Church has a duty to provide

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good medical advice to missionaries and has liabilities for any failure. If the Church wins, itdemonstrates that missionaries should ignore the MP and take care of themselves.permalink save give gold

[–] MinsPackage 9 points 4 hours ago

Make back ups of all documentation of correspondence, emails especially. Do you have herjournal? What about the correspondence or blog posts or journal entries of her missioncompanion at the time. And I'm sorry, but your mom has lost it. God's will? Fuck that shit.permalink save give gold

[–] naked_potato Antitheist 7 points 3 hours ago

I don't know if I'll ever be able to express how much I hate this fucking organization.

Take them to court and fuck them with a cactus.permalink save give gold

[–] Ranaj 4 points 3 hours ago

THIS!permalink save parent give gold

[–] Kessee Heresiarch 9 points 3 hours ago

"..maybe it was God's will."

Holy. Shit. I. Hate. What. This. Cult. Does. To. Good. People.permalink save give gold

[–] morganizedreligion 9 points 2 hours ago

Looks like this story is legit...http://crystalboatright.blogspot.com/ A sister from the samemission in Vancouver, WA wrote this on her blog on May 28, 2014...sounds like this story.permalink save give gold

[–] dante2810 1 point 1 hour ago

Glad you found thisI kept searching and could not find any independent reference to this story.permalink save parent give gold

[–] [deleted] 4 hours ago*

[deleted]

[–] fa1thless Faith means not wanting to know what is true. [M] 4 points 4 hours ago

No personal information. We do not need a witch hunt.permalink save give gold

[–] CountVonNeckbeard 2 points 1 hour ago

What if she's actually a witch? We should hunt her just to be safepermalink save parent give gold

[–] fa1thless Faith means not wanting to know what is true. 1 point 1 hour ago

Then call hazel and grertyl and leave it to the pros.permalink save parent give gold

[–] DonttouchyourZelph 5 points 4 hours ago

Heartbreaking!

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[–] Frostgreen 3 points 4 hours ago

Sorry, my condolences. That lady should not be in that position, her ignorance has causedharm to otherspermalink save give gold

[–] tincanfurball 3 points 3 hours ago

I'm sorry for your loss. The church's emphasis on obedience, and the horrible situations itoften causes is absolutely disgusting to me.permalink save give gold

[–] Bennyboy1337 3 points 3 hours ago

Words can not describe. I really do hope you reach out and try to make this monstrousaction more well known, at best successful legal action can be brought against the churchand people will hear about this story nation or even worldwide. I really wish you the best ofluck, there are plenty of kind an caring people on this sub, ask us if you need any help.permalink save give gold

[–] jor_gen_sen 5 points 3 hours ago

Losing a sibling must be so painful, and I'm so sorry to hear of your loss. I'm no lawyer, butif medically trained and licensed professionals released your sister from the hospital, thenthey would be the ones who could be legally liable for her death. Not an untrainedvolunteer. I'm not defending the policy, but considering the timeline of events, SisterPresident is not legally liable.permalink save give gold

[–] seventhvision 4 points 3 hours ago

The church has been doing things like this for decades. They get away with it becausepeople don't like to sue a church. I don't know why, negligence is negligence. The churchwon't change unless people start standing up for themselves.

I would definitely take this story to the press. It's time to let the cat out of the bag.permalink save give gold

[–] raffastafarian 3 points 3 hours ago

I can't imagine how your mother could watch her child die of a treatable infection becauseshe was denied treatment, and then say it was God's will. That poor woman must bemiserable. I wish I could do something to help.permalink save give gold

[–] Venomade Delicious to the taste 4 points 3 hours ago*

That whole permission to go see the doctor rule is the biggest crock of shit I've heard. Ican't believe she was denied multiple times!!! Who the hell does that???!!! That is absolutenegligence and they deserve to be held responsible. I hope you find the means to seekjustice for your sister, she deserves it. She dedicates a year and a half of her life to thechurch and they take away the rest of it. FUCK THIS CULT.permalink save give gold

[–] cadetgwladus 3 points 3 hours ago

I'm so sorry about what happened. Whatever support you need, this community is here for

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you.permalink save give gold

[–] Debasers_Comics 3 points 3 hours ago

I have nothing constructive to add.

Fuck those twisted, monstrous freaks and every mewling defense that drops out of thefestering, cancerous assholes they call mouths.permalink save give gold

[–] eltiare 3 points 3 hours ago

This is fucking awful. There aren't enough swear words in the English language to say justhow mind numbingly awful this is. You should sue to keep them from doing this again. Thisisn't just about your sister, but to everyone else that they will do this to in the future. I'mso sorry for your loss. :(permalink save give gold

[–] MorCowbell 3 points 2 hours ago

My sincerest condolences first of all to you and your family. This must be a very difficult andstressful time for everyone involved and it took a lot of courage for you to post here.Secondly, pursuing charges on this man and women is the right thing to do; they are inclear violation of the law by neglecting the needed care your sister obviously needed. It'samazing that the mission's president's wife abused her power and the system your sisterfollowed, and in doing so ultimately caused her death. And then for your mother to justify itas an act of god is beyond comprehension.permalink save give gold

[–] pamelakd 4 points 2 hours ago

If you start a gofundme page to help with the financial costs of pursuing litigation I willgladly contribute. This should not be allowed to go unanswered for.permalink save give gold

[–] iasazo 4 points 2 hours ago

This is a very tragic story. One thing that seems very wrong that I don't see anyonementioning is her being released from the hospital two days prior to her passing. Was shestill septic when they released her?permalink save give gold

[–] CastigatRidendoMores 3 points 2 hours ago

TL;DR: I came very close to dying on my mission for similar reasons, but in my case itwasn't nearly so clearly due to bad judgment or worse. For one thing, we had an actualmission doctor.

I am an organ transplant recipient, and take medications that suppress my immune systemin order to keep my body from rejecting the transplanted organ. That means I get sickrather easily, I recover more slowly, and minor infections can lead to big problems.

So here's what happened: I got some nasal congestion that led to congested ears (yourinner ear drains into your nasal cavities, so the tubes can get blocked by mucus). My earsstarted to hurt, so I made a call into the mission doctor, concerned that they were infected.

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She asked some questions and came to the conclusion that it was almost definitelyallergies, despite me never having allergies before.

I trusted her judgment, as she was a doctor and I was not. The thing is, my suppressedimmune system also means less symptoms of infection it's harder for me to get a fever,for example. So the signs of infection she was looking for weren't all there, but the infectionwas.

Long story short, after numerous other calls the pain got so intense that nothing wouldmake it bearable. I spent a day in bed moaning, sleeping a couple hours off and on. Then Inoticed that the side of my face had swollen up, my ear an inch or two further out than itshould be. The doctor told us to go straight to the ER.

I was in the hospital for a week, with three different IV antibiotics. It took another couple ofweeks for the swelling to go down enough to drain my ear through the eardrum. Themission doctor came to visit me in the hospital, absolutely mortified and apologetic.

The moral of the story is: When it comes to your own health, don't blindly trust anyoneelse's judgment, even a doctor's. If you see a doctor and what they're saying doesn't seemright, press the issue. Get a second opinion if necessary. Doctors know way more than youdo about medical care, but they can't feel what you are feeling and sometimes they makemistakes.

And if you can't 100% trust doctors, definitely don't risk your own health on the advice ofsomeone without proper medical training. I can't believe the MP's wife was sounquestioningly confident in her opinion with that many calls. It never should have gottento that point.permalink save give gold

[–] repmack 5 points 2 hours ago

Interestingly enough I think I know about the story you're talking about. Are you sure yoursister wasn't serving in a Washington State Mission? Specifically was she in the southwestof the state right along the Columbia river when she got sick and passed away?permalink save give gold

[–] thebumm 4 points 2 hours ago

One more thing, OP. It's your mom's right to believe what she believes (that it's God's will)BUT it's your right and the rest of your family's to believe what you do. If you and the restof your family think this is worthy of legal action, go for it.permalink save give gold

[–] Themiffins 5 points 2 hours ago

Feel like a lot of people are ignoring the mom telling the daughter to listen to the presidentand his wife.permalink save give gold

[–] freedomthinker 3 points 2 hours ago

Very sorry for your loss. Unbelievable tragedy. You may have just become millionairesbecause you could sue the FUCK out of those inconsiderate FUCKS!!! Best of luck and againsorrypermalink save give gold

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[–] socratess 5 points 2 hours ago

So the big question is who's primarily responsible for the death ? Is it the MP's wife or theChurch ? Your comments please.permalink save give gold

[–] Jager4TheUndead 0 points 2 hours ago

Both in my opinion. She represents the church.permalink save parent give gold

[–] parachutewoman Guided by cureloms 8 points 5 hours ago

This is terrible. This is truly terrible. Sue them, so it doesn't happen to somebody else.permalink save give gold

[–] Ua_Tsaug Fluent in reformed Egyptian 7 points 5 hours ago

Holy shit, this story broke my heart. I'm so sorry that this tragedy that happened to youand your family. And you certainly are entitled to sue the scum responsible for using theirauthority to pressure your late sister in not getting medical care! Please contact a lawyer,they should not get away with this terrible crime that led to an innocent person's death.permalink save give gold

[–] foruntous 8 points 4 hours ago

I'm so very sorry for your loss and for the way your family was treated.permalink save give gold

[–] dante2810 9 points 4 hours ago

I am so sorry about your sister.I am sorry about your mother as well. I fear time will take it's toll as she tries to maintainthe illusion that this was "gods will" an not negligence by the MP wife.

I will be honest, legal action may not go anywhere. Lawyers will argue your sister was anadult and did not need the MP permission. And while we know what a mission is like, nonmember would have a hard time understanding why she did not just go on her own.

If you want to make sure something like this does not happen again, a media campaignmight be a way to go.The church fears bad press.When people ask the question "why didn't she just go on her own", the whole cult ideologygets exposed.

Only you or your family can know what is best way to handle the situation and whether youare willing to go public.

You are in our thoughtspermalink save give gold

[–] DogBones11 5 points 4 hours ago

Thank you for sharing your difficult story. You can help prevent something like this fromhappening to another missionary.permalink save give gold

[–] NotVeryUsefulTruths Eppur si muove. 8 points 4 hours ago

This is a terrible story.

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Sounds like the hospital also bears some blame; why did they release her?!

I wonder what godly wisdom initiated the policy where mission moms were qualified totriage medical care? I can just hear that discussion, about how 18 year old boys and 19year old girls aren't quite ready to determine when medical care is necessary and when itisn't, therefore go through a wise mission mom. In the meantime, have those young boysand girls go out and tell people the answers to all of life's questions.permalink save give gold

[–] ZapPowerz Ethical Hedonist 5 points 4 hours ago

Infuriating! Rage inducing! These horrible human beings need to be held accountable forcausing the death of your sister!permalink save give gold

[–] chanteusetriste 6 points 4 hours ago

Unless mission presidents or their wives are doctors... They are NOT qualified to diagnose!Sue the shit out of them, contact the media. Fuck what your mom said.permalink save give gold

[–] meateaterbc 6 points 3 hours ago

This is a policy that clearly needs to change. If you have a medical issue, it must be takenup with a health care professional NOT the wife of some old guy who some other old guysasked to be there.

Think of it like this if you had to ask your boss for permission to go to the hospital after aworkplace injury, that would be a clear violation of health and safety protocol. THIS IS NODIFFERENT.

Please at least go speak to a few different lawyers about this. You could save others' lives.permalink save give gold

[–] randomapologist 2 points 3 hours ago

My God, I am so sorry. My heart breaks for you. I can't imagine such a senseless loss.permalink save give gold

[–] Ryguychu 2 points 3 hours ago*

I'm all for litigation! Please include the mission president AND the church. This is so messedup. Is anyone sending this story to news outlets? But yes, please verify the story somehow.permalink save give gold

[–] Myfriendthewitchdoc 2 points 3 hours ago

Assuming for a second it was "God's will", the behavior of MP and wife was still dangerousand unethical. Surely your mother can agree with that? What a horrible position for yourparents to be in. I'm so sorry for your loss, I wish you and your family lots of comfort as yougrieve. I hope you can all come to a good consensus about what to do as a family.permalink save give gold

[–] vdau 4 points 3 hours ago

When was this? My girlfriend's mom's best friend was the wife of the Portland missionpresident in the last decade.....permalink save give gold

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[–] [deleted] 3 hours ago

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[–] [deleted] 2 hours ago

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[–] [deleted] 2 hours ago

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[–] laughingeconomist 1 point 2 hours ago

I've found it mentioned on a few other forums, and it looks like youmight be right. I'll delete my comments.permalink save give gold

[–] jurroot BYUI do 1 point 2 hours ago

http://crystalboatright.blogspot.com/permalink save give gold

[–] laughingeconomist 1 point 2 hours ago

You'll note those comments were already deleted. Verification wasprovided.permalink save parent give gold

[–] 089786 The Oracle of Bullshit Mountain 3 points 3 hours ago

girlfriend here, checking in D:

This was after the mission president I knew (which is a relief, because he and his wifeare really kind people and would never deny someone medical help, especially since hewas a doctor!)

That being said, I am so sorry, OP! That is so terrible and it's even worse that yourfamily isn't united in confronting this awful reality.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Shill4Shekels 2 points 2 hours ago

http://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/32md9u/or_can_anyone_comment_on_the_possibility_of_a/permalink save give gold

[–] maowsers93 3 points 2 hours ago

It isn't God's will to force people to work for free in excruciating pain until they die. That isman's will. I'm so sorry about your sister. The people who treated her like that need to beheld accountable. You might see if you can contact someone with the ACLU or other civilrights groups who might be able to put you in touch with some legal council.

It's a stretch of a subject but I'd argue that manipulating someone into believing they haveto work in pain against their will is an infringement on personal rights.permalink save give gold

[–] [deleted] 1 hour ago

[deleted]

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[–] I_said_I_wouldnt 2 points 1 hour ago

I don't think we should post those things here. OP may have omitted the preciselocation in an attempt to slow the chance of her being outed. Her name is among thoseon the obituary it's basically like peripherally doxxing her (presuming this is the rightcase, which I believe it is).

If OP didn't want to share the obit or specifics while she was crowdsourcingr/exmormon's responses on this, we should respect that until she has a chance togather her thoughts and decide whether or not to pursue this legally.permalink save give gold

[–] siirna 3 points 1 hour ago

Our mom doesn't want to pursue any action against the mission president because shebelieves that maybe it was God's will.

There are not hurtful enough things I can say about that thing to convey how reading thismade me feel.permalink save give gold

[–] raezin 2 points 1 hour ago

Can we get this to the media, please? OP, please demand justice for your sister to protectother sons and daughters from the same fate. Back the church into a hot corner and forcethem to look at what they did like a dog in trouble. Wave this like feces under their nose.They must be held accountable.permalink save give gold

[–] Drainbownick 3 points 1 hour ago*

You need to take this case to an investigative journalist and get a story circulating, thenfollow up with a lawsuit once there is some media or public backlash against the church. Iam not against LDS, quite the opposite I have many good friends in the church and Irespect them as a whole despite the flaws of the organization (and the crock of crap theyare founded on) but this medieval thinking must be eradicated wherever it's found.

Edit: terribly sorry for your loss...don't be bitter at your mom, she's in denial...bitternesswon't help you cope. My heart goes out to you and your family.permalink save give gold

[–] sojuatheist 10 points 2 hours ago

I noticed a bunch of vanilla, nonconfrontational, nonsarcastic, sympathetic, regularcomments that were downvoted down there. I passed a bunch of votes around tocompensate.

To the TBM who thought it was a good idea to go through a thread like this and blanketdownvote everyone... Fuck. You. Go shove a Book of Mormon up your ass.permalink save give gold

[–] maowsers93 6 points 2 hours ago

I'm noticed the same thing and I'm upvoting everyone too. Why someone would gothrough a sensitive thread like this and blanket downvote everyone is beyond me.permalink save parent give gold

[–] guiglia 5 points 5 hours ago

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I'm so sorry to hear about this painful situation. I understand that it is a very sensitiveissue but think you are right to share your concerns with others to hopefully preventanother situation of this nature. Heartfelt sympathy.permalink save give gold

[–] desertrat22 6 points 4 hours ago

Heartbreaking so sorry for your loss. May you find in time whatever peace is obtainablefrom this horrific set of circumstances.permalink save give gold

[–] laineypc 5 points 4 hours ago

So very sorry for everyone involved. It wasn't god's will. It was bad policy, bad judgmentand overreliance on faith. One has to wonder if the mission president's wife would havemade the same decisions were it her own daughter. My thought is that the church policyneeds to be addressed and changed, and perhaps legal action is necessary for the church totake the problem seriously. I am a fan of the concept of restorative justice and mediation asI think it is ultimately more healing for all involved, but I don't have experience to backthat up. But mediation/reconciliation between your family and the mission president andhis wife, by a neutral (nonchurch) 3rd party is another option to consider.permalink save give gold

[–] CraigPaxton 6 points 4 hours ago

Thank you for sharing this important story. You NEED to take this to the Church OfficeBuilding. This needs to be a required lesson taught to the new and current missionpresidents so that this kind of negligence is NEVER repeated EVER.

I am so sorry for your unimaginable loss...and knowing that it was preventable had yoursister only listened to her own needs rather than her mission presidents wife...only makethis all the more tragic.

Please contact the church and make certain that your sisters death is not in vain. Otherscame be protected...if this tragic lesson is taught to all current and future MP'spermalink save give gold

[–] im26e4u 4 points 4 hours ago

What a tragic and unnecessary loss. I feel so very sorry. Do what you think is the bestcourse of action for the family, and I hope with time all can heal from this tragic loss.

Certainly the responsibility rests solely on the Mission President himself, not even the wife,he is the one ultimately responsible, and by extension the church he represents.permalink save give gold

[–] Unmormon1 4 points 4 hours ago

If Mom doesn't love her daughter enough to do anything, I'd at least track down everymissionary I could that knew her and make sure they're hearing the true story.permalink save give gold

[–] crispybaconsalad 4 points 4 hours ago

I would really like to see some sort of justice come from this.permalink save give gold

[–] JulieGrenn 4 points 4 hours ago

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My heart is broken for you and your family i'm so sorry. This makes me so angry, what doesit cost the church to let the missionaries go to the hospital?permalink save give gold

[–] murmalerm 5 points 3 hours ago

Not a cult /Spermalink save give gold

[–] TheWayoftheFuture ...the way of the future...the way of the future... 4 points 2 hours ago

Talk to an attorney. Forget about the chruchs' lawyers. Your attorney should take a case likethis on contingency so your attorney will get paid out of settlement proceeds or from thejudgment.

Please, please, please talk to an attorney in Oregon.permalink save give gold

[–] onlythecosmos 3 points 3 hours ago

I'm very sorry for this. I remember how on my mission they would do everything they couldto not let us see the Doctor. Press charges and go to the press, please. If you need helpwith donations I'm sure we can all help. Please keep us posted.permalink save give gold

[–] BadLuckRabbitsFoot 5 points 3 hours ago

This story needs to be brought to light and paraded out into the media. Just like manyother have said, the only thing that is going to make the church change and fix these issuesis if they're shown to be in a bad light. This HAS to at least get out. I'd suggest seeing ifyou can pursue some sort of legal action, and I hope you do, but I can understand if youdecide not to. But please, please, please, at least try to get this further into the publiceye.permalink save give gold

[–] BanetteTrainer 4 points 2 hours ago

If your mother ever read the bible she would know that a painful death for her child wasnever ever a part of the will of God.permalink save give gold

[–] razorwiredbliss 4 points 2 hours ago

This is standard procedure, and is complete idiocy. I never once went to my missionpresidents wife, as I knew she wasn't medically trained, and I don't count being a"mommy" and putting band aids on cuts to be sufficient to give her authority over everymissionary's health.permalink save give gold

[–] filmmaker30 7 points 5 hours ago

So so sorry for your loss. Horrendous. You should sue to make sure this doesn't happenagain.

Are there any lawyers out there? They have to have a real case right? Especially if the sistergot in writing? This is terrible. This is what happens when you take away people's ability tothink for themselves. Disgusting.permalink save give gold

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[–] silverfirexz 1 point 2 hours ago

Wow. I am so sorry for your loss. I think you should publicize your story, and pursue legalcharges. This behavior was negligent and should be prosecuted. The church, and thismission couple should be held responsible for their actions, and for the great harm they'vecaused. So that they don't do it again.permalink save give gold

[–] onemightyandstrong 1 point 2 hours ago

Negligence of missionary wellbeing is all to common. My exgirlfriend told me she was rapedon her mission because an AP was too cheap to buy her a private cabin on a train.permalink save give gold

[–] LDSRevelations 1 point 2 hours ago

So sorry for your loss. I was wanting to read more about what happened but can't seem tofind anything in the press about it. 2014 in Portland?permalink save give gold

[–] beerob81 1 point 2 hours ago

You sue them and the church as a whole. No questionpermalink save give gold

[–] socratess 1 point 2 hours ago

This is terrible ! A lawyer should look at the handbook and the LDS health insurance policy.For internationals (Germans) with superb health care that must be even more shocking. Notsure if there is negligence by the admin officer, but my core point is whether a health careapproval system is really allowed to let non professionals take on a responsible role in healthcare and overrule specialist medical advise just to save money ? This could be material for aclass action suit.permalink save give gold

[–] living_out 1 point 2 hours ago

Oh my God! I'm so sorry, and angry! Whatever legal action can be brought, ought to be,without question.permalink save give gold

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[–] darwinn_69 3 points 2 hours ago

Unfortunately I don't think you can sue. Unless they held a gun to her head she made herown decisions. However, getting this exposure is probably your best bet. Would bringingthis up to church officials so those people lose their job be an option?permalink save give gold

[–] socratess 1 point 1 hour ago

Can't get over it. They yelled ? What about saying over an over how sorry they are ? Havethey already been briefed by lawyers ?permalink save give gold

[–] CountVonNeckbeard 2 points 1 hour ago

Is this your sister OP?

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1393626,1393708permalink save give gold

[–] Merari01 3 points 1 hour ago

I'm so sorry for your loss.

Please press charges. These people are directly responsible for her death.permalink save give gold

[–] patriarchybasher 1 point 1 hour ago

There are some attorneys in Portland who have sued the LDS church over child abuse. Idon't know the name of the firm but the "get" what it's like to take on the LDS church andthey are not afraid to do it. It might be this case: http://www.prnewswire.com/newsreleases/childabusecoverupcostsmormonchurch3million71939217.htmlpermalink save give gold

[–] patriarchybasher 2 points 1 hour ago

Looks like the same attorney, David Slader, also sued the Catholic Church, but I can'tfind an internet presence for him. However, another attorney mentioned in the articlehas a website. Here is the story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wpdyn/articles/A312662004Jul6.html

And here is a link to William Barton's law firm:

http://www.superlawyers.com/oregon/lawyer/WilliamABarton/8531bd6d798949e5aee7265b7a8fe69c.html

I don't know anything about these guys other than that they have taken on bigdefendants, including the LDS and Catholic churches, but I'm thinking lawyers like thiswould love to take on this kind of case.permalink save parent give gold

[–] TomLambe 2 points 1 hour ago

This is unbelievable!You can't go to a doctor because God will be mad!?Fucking hell, I've heard it all now!Sorry for your loss.Sue the fuck out of the selfish, evil, manipulative wankers.Hit them in the purse strings, it's obvious that that's their main aim, you know, since

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they'd rather your sister earn them followers and money than receive medical help and live.permalink save give gold

Please do not vote or comment when you come from externalsubreddits.[–] Reprobates 3 points 1 hour ago

Sounds like it happened in Vancouver, Washington (across the river from Portland). Hasanyone contacted the local newspaper?permalink save edit disable inbox replies delete

[–] bt2184 2 points 1 hour ago

Most posts in here get my blood booing, but this is a whole other level of anger. How canthey leave medical decisions up to some random lady?permalink save give gold

[–] andthisiswhere riding that majestic tapir 3 points 1 hour ago

Probably a new mission president, and this is nowhere near the severity, but my brotheralso served in Portland. He had severe back pain and was given a similar run around andtold to 'do some stretches.'

Another brother served in Utah and had severe medical issues with his feet. When he camehome he had to have numerous doctor and specialist visits to repair the damage as theywere left untreated.

The lack of health care in missions is appalling especially considering the obedience cultureand the fact that these kids are sacrificing time and money. Few things make me moreangry about the church. I'm so sorry you have been a part of this problem.permalink save give gold

[–] AarBearRAWR 3 points 1 hour ago

I can't offer you any legal council, as I am not well versed in the law to do so. All I can offeras an exMormon myself, and a human being, is my sincere condolences and well wishes foryou and your family. No one should ever have to go through something like this. I am sosorry.permalink save give gold

[–] JohnnyReeko 3 points 1 hour ago

Of course this is a sensitive issue and I can't even begin to understand what you mustgoing through so I have restrained myself in what I was going to say. Instead, I'll just saythat this situation is just messed up, big time.

I'm not an exmormon, I just saw this on the front page and it made me really angryreading it, particularly your mothers attitude towards the whole thing.permalink save give gold

[–] Kumdogmillionaire 2 points 1 hour ago

Your mom killed her toopermalink save give gold

[–] makeswordcloudsagain 2 points 2 hours ago

Here is a word cloud of all of the comments in this thread: http://i.imgur.com/h2wbe4y.pngsource code | contact developer | faq

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permalink save give gold

[–] blindmormon “Whereas I was blind, now I see.” 3 points 2 hours ago

I'm so sorry for your loss.

:(permalink save give gold

[–] glaringoryx 3 points 2 hours ago

Hey, I had an almost exact same thing happen to me on my mission (with a less severeoutcome, obviously) but it did leave me maimed for life. I am an active member of thechurch, but this isn't a testimony issue but rather a irresponsible and dangerous policyissue. Please pm me if you want to talk, I am also willing to share my story if you file somesort of class action lawsuit (not a lawyer) to show a pattern of abuse. This is a policy that Iabsolutely hate, and would love to talk with you.permalink save give gold

[–] The_Man11 ...and the truth shall make you free. 3 points 2 hours ago

Something like this would be in the news and I'm not seeing it. I call BS until you have anews link.permalink save give gold

[–] jurroot BYUI do 3 points 2 hours ago

http://crystalboatright.blogspot.com/permalink save parent give gold

[–] big_dumb_jerk 1 point 2 hours ago

Sue. Now.permalink save give gold

[–] Jess_than_three 1 point 1 hour ago

That's so, so awful. I'm so sorry for your loss.permalink save give gold

[–] rushaz according to Mormonism, I'm going to hell. YAY! 2 points 1 hour ago

I'm curious to ask, is there any documented proof of this? news stories about it printedanywhere, obituaries, etc?permalink save give gold

[–] I_said_I_wouldnt 2 points 1 hour ago

There's an obituary and missionary blog posts online if you google with Vancouver, WA(which is very close to Portland). The details check out.

I'm bummed that OP seems to have gone offline while all the suspicion was swirling;she's going to be coming back to a shitstorm of innuendo when she gets back here.

OP, I am so sorry for your loss, and I support what people are telling you about takinglegal action. Please sue. This is unforgivable neglect, and you have the emails to proveit.permalink save parent give gold

Please do not vote or comment when you come fromexternal subreddits.

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[–] Reprobates 1 point 1 hour ago

Obituary link?permalink save parent edit disable inbox replies delete

[–] I_said_I_wouldnt 1 point 1 hour ago

I don't want to post the link, because I feel that OP would have included moresolid information if she had wanted to. But if you google the basic words of thestory with Vancouver, WA, there's a thread on exmormon.org that appears rightat the top. The first respondent posts the mission blog that talks about whathappened, and I googled the deceased sister missionary's name from there.

Sorry to be so backward about it, but I just don't think it's fair to doxx the OPovertly here. I'm betting she's going to be pretty horrified when she logs back inand sees how much of a runaway train this is, and I don't want to contribute toodirectly to her feeling vulnerable, as she likely will.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Burninator_89 1 point 1 hour ago

Lawyer uppermalink save give gold

[–] MarkyOchoa 2 points 1 hour ago

Wow that is some sick shit.permalink save give gold

[–] alansjenn Cheesecake... it's what's for dinner. 1 point 1 hour ago

My nephew is serving in Portland at this very moment. Wonder if I should bring this up tomy very TMB, very reactionary sister. Of course, she'll just agree while we're on the phoneand then blow it all off, because the church isn't capable of doing anything wrong.

I really hope you do file a suit, because your sister is one of whoknowshowmany the worldhas lost because of unfit leadership. It's not going to stop unless someone makes themresponsible.permalink save give gold

[–] Cistem 2 points 1 hour ago

fuck this shitpermalink save give gold

[–] exmo88 1 point 1 hour ago

The 'only' thing this church understands is $$$. Hit them where it hurts, then enjoy a niceretirement.permalink save give gold

[–] wheep 1 point 1 hour ago

But, our Mom encouraged her to be obedient to the mission president's rules.

Our mom doesn't want to pursue any action against the mission president because shebelieves that maybe it was God's will.

What the f is wrong with your mom? My mother was also hopelessly brainwashed, and wasso extreme that she was excommunicated.

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If you are going to sue, your mom should be sued as well.permalink save give gold

[–] almale12 2 points 1 hour ago

I am a retired attorney. I have a brother who served on a mission for LDS. I agree with theDr. In the post above. If you like, I will give you my phone # I will give you my opinion onthe legal options you may have.permalink save give gold

[–] DreadPiratesRobert Former Elder Dread 2 points 1 hour ago

Unfortunately this is the situation anytime you need to ask for medical care. I pickedsomeone up from a nursing home the other day (I'm an EMT), and he had asked for theprevious 3 days to go to the ER but was denied. He had pneumonia and was practicallydrowning in his own lungs.

Luckily, in my situation, there is readily available recourse (through the state healthdepartment). You still have recourse (through litigation). I'd suggest taking it. Nonmedically trained people should not be making medical decisions. You could possibly savethe lives of many missionaries.

Hell, even the worst insurance plans allows for ER visits. It'd be stupid not to.permalink save give gold

[–] sulosin just choose to have faith 1 point 1 hour ago

Prime example of how following "God's will" or "the Spirit" can be so screwed up.

I'm sorry for your loss.permalink save give gold

[–] fromkentucky 2 points 1 hour ago

Go to the Press and find a good national law firm.permalink save give gold

[–] Dtrain323i 1 point 1 hour ago

Scorched earth policy. Do what it takes to make them pay.permalink save give gold

[–] relevantlife 1 point 1 hour ago

Here is a missionary blog from last year.

The second post from May 28th seems to CONFIRM the story. In case the "so called"church contacts this missionary and requests she take her blog down, here is a screenshotof the post.

Also, this obit:permalink save give gold

[–] ignore_my_typo 1 point 1 hour ago

Edit out the part about your mom in agreement with the Missionaries if you plan to takethis to court.

You'd have a hard time convincing a jury that it was them that your sister was obeying andnot your mother. If your mom said she shouldn't go to the Dr. then your mother is just aguilty. It will be messy.

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[–] flip69 1 point 1 hour ago

The fact is that she was denied medical attention after repeated requests.

That is abuse, mistreatment and neglect the people who did this are responsible and thechurch by extension for endorsing them.

Strongly peruse legal action... do NOT be intoimidated by either the church or the threat ofthe lawyers. They have no power, if they did then they would be first in line for beingresponsible for your sisters death.

They are just going to try to cover their asses and pass the blame onto others if they can.Your sister did not deserve to die in pain... she did nothing wrong and was just born into areligion that attempts to control all their members every move.permalink save give gold

[–] astralboy15 0 points 3 hours ago

DISCLAIMER: I initially posted this, then deleted it out of not wanting to hurt anyfeelings. But the lack of any objective responses had made me to decide to bring it back.

Before you blame the mission presidents wife obviously the mission presidents wife haszero medical experience what did you sister actually die from? If it really was from anongoing infection which I find unlikely considering the story, hospitals don't tend torelease patients in any degree of sepsis the hospital would be the first place to cast astone.

Without having all the facts I find this story kind of like "mission president kills elderbecause he told them to go tracting and they knocked in to a serial killer." Did your sisterclearly articulate to the mission presidents wife that the doctor explicitly told her to seekmedical attention should see feel unwell? Did your sister not have a follow up appointmentwith her surgeon? And as an RM I understand that stigma, but, at the end of the day yoursister was an adult and the mission presidents wife really did not stop her from seekingcare, as is evidenced when she went to the ER.

I am sorry for your loss.

But try to consider the entire situation before you decide who to throw under the buss.Obviously I'm just quarterbacking from the information you provided, but, consider allaspects before you cast blame. I understand it must be satisfying to blame achurch/representative of said church when you or disaffected, but, I think you need to bemore objective in your evaluation of what happened specifically, what happened in thehospital and then after before you claim someone killed her.permalink save give gold

[–] 089786 The Oracle of Bullshit Mountain 8 points 3 hours ago

I don't think this is really the place to attack OP for misplaced anger.

Hospitals aren't without human mistakes and accidents. When an infection has beenbrewing for so long, it can be hard to know if it's totally gone. We don't have medicinedown to an exact science and a lot of medicine is just educated guesswork by doctors,which is why they can keep you in the hospital for so long, so they can monitor you forchanges. If anything, it's mostly the mission president and his wife's fault for sitting on

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their asses for so long while the infection got deeper and deeper into OP's sister.permalink save parent give gold

[–] astralboy15 1 point 2 hours ago

This is why I initially deleted the comment I'm not trying to attack the OP, justtrying hopefully get him to consider everything before he blames some missionpresidents wife. Maybe she had an adverse reaction to the antibiotics she was given?Maybe she died due to an unknown (and therefore untreated) medical condition shewasn't aware of? Maybe the instruments used in surgery were never properlysterilize and that is why she got infected? What if those instruments were infectedwith virus or an extremely antibiotic resistant bacteria? Maybe the surgeon usedunsterile technique and that is why she got infected? And the same goes for anynumber of ways she could have developed complications to IV meds in the hospital.

To say that the mission presidents wife killed his sister is not accurate; if she did diedue to complications from infection long story short, organ failure. Perhaps onecould claim negligence? I'm not familiar enough with the law to throw out any morespecific terminology. However, when some has had surgery, got a postop infection,was admitted to the hospital for 48 hours of IV antibiotics (which is NOT a long timefor someone who is septic..., discharged, and died 48 hours later...guess where thesmoking gun is?

Now try this:

[Mission presidents wives] aren't without human mistakes and accidents. Whenan infection has been brewing for so long, it can be hard to know if it's totallygone. [Mission presidents wives] don't have medicine down to an exact scienceand a lot of [what mission presidents wives do] is just educated guesswork by[limited experience and possible consultation with the mission/area doctor],which is why they can keep you in the [out working] so long, so they can monitoryou for changes. If anything, it's mostly the [surgeons/hospitals/admittingphysician] fault for [mismanaging the patient] while the infection got deeper anddeeper into OP's sister.

As many problems that I have with the church, and as much as I can love this subsometimes, it never ceases to amaze me the confirmation bias used by the postershere omg something happened to a missionary and I no longer like the church, it'sthe churches fault! Burn the witches!

Again, OP, I'm sorry for you loss, no one deserves to lose a sibling to suchcircumstances and at such an age. My thoughts are with you.

I've said my piece. I'm done with this thread.permalink save parent give gold

[–] 089786 The Oracle of Bullshit Mountain 3 points 1 hour ago*

I dont disagree with you I doubt the mission president OR his wife was tryingto be malicious. However, someone DIED. That is not something you can shrugoff as "I didnt know better!"permalink save parent give gold

[–] astralboy15 1 point 1 minute ago

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I agree. But those with greater training (in this case medical) should be heldto a higher level of accountability (the hospital/attending physician(s), thesurgeon).

For example, "sister soandso I have a backache" "ok, take some advil" ......boom, dissecting abdominal aorta, then rupture and death several days later could she really be expected to have any idea about any of that?

What we really need to know is exactly how much info MP wife had. Withoutthat this is a witch hunt. Maybe all she was told is "my mouth hurt"permalink save parent give gold

[–] truthdelicious Alma the Sexy 1 point 2 hours ago

I don't think he is. There was a grave mistake to decline care for sure, but theoutcome may or may not have been directly the fault of the MP's wife. Not that anyof this matters because it could be all made up at this point.permalink save parent give gold

[–] Captain_Blue_Shell 2 points 1 hour ago

I don't think this is really the place to attack OP for misplaced anger.

Yeah, this is the place to attack the LDS Church for misplaced anger.permalink save parent give gold

[–] thebumm 4 points 2 hours ago

Well, as a defender (normally) as well, the MOST I could say to this is the MP or MP'swife, not the hospital. You're asking for issues if you ignore constant pain, especiallysince the dentist the doctor directly related to said pain specifically mentionedseeking treatment if there was any pain. The hospital can only see and fix so much.They may be liable for something, but the root of the issue is indeed on the inactioncounteraction of the MP and wife.

So my thought here is MP and MP's wife secured their place under the bus, and seekinglegal action against them by way of the church is the only way to get them out and anyfurther damage stopped.permalink save parent give gold

[–] astralboy15 3 points 2 hours ago

Unless they didn't do anything wrong?

OP never gave us a real cause of death "infection" is ridiculously general. When youget septic you don't die from the fact that you have bacteremia meaning, bacteriain the blood, and 48 hours for a turn around on a blood cultures is ridiculously fast,really, so unless they were using some realtime PCR (which I HIGHLY doubt), thisstory doesn't sound like sepsis and its sequelae you die because you gethypotensive and go into multiple organ dysfunction. Which any noncriminallynegligent physician should be able to diagnose and obtain prompt treatment.

And what happened to her postoperative check, a pretty standard protocol followingsurgery.

To blame the mission presidents wife of being in the wrong we'd really need toassume that she had full knowledge of the situation how many mission presidents

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wives are trained in postoperative care? Wouldn't a nonmedically trained personsnatural assumption is "you are just having normal postoperative pain." Was themission presidents wife told of the surgeons postoperative precautions?

I see this situation as being the same as a boss who tells their employee to go aheadand take a couple of days off because they are feeling sick and then trying to suethe boss when that employee dies from complications associated with a ischemicbowel or something.

Its really easy to blame the church. That's the confirmation bias everyone is alwaysharping on about, right? It's harder to be objective.permalink save parent give gold

[–] thebumm 4 points 2 hours ago

No I see it as a kid who has been sick asking his teacher to go to the bathroomand the teacher saying no. The kid asking again and the teacher saying no, thenthe kid having diarrhea on the floor. Or your example of the employee/employer,the employer telling the employee to ignore symptoms and suck it up becauseit's a work day.

Health should 100% of the time trump anything else. If you are in pain afterany operation there are protocols in place. This one, the dentist said explicitly tosee a doctor in the case of pain, and that right, that action, was denied by theMP and wife. The protocol was ignored. If the MP/wife didn't know of thedentist's direction and protocols that's even MORE on them, because if they arein charge of "giving permission" to see medical professionals they should have allthe information before making a decision.

When I went to camp as a kid I was asked for my medical issues or allergies ormedication so this type of thing wouldn't happen. If there was an issue I wasasked if it was recurring, what my parents or doctors did in the past, and thehistory would be reviewed. When I said "My doctor said if X happens, I should doY" I was not told to do Z and forget it as this young lady was.permalink save parent give gold

[–] hitchcocklikedblonds 3 points 1 hour ago

Yeah, the MP and his wife are certainly at some fault.

If a young person comes to you and says they are in persistent pain, youtake them to the doctor. I teach university and I have sent students to thedoctor before because they mentioned a persistent pain or didn't look well.One of the kid's ended up having meningitis.permalink save parent give gold

[–] thebumm 3 points 1 hour ago

Health is just not something to take lightly on any level. As a person in arespected position to ignore something like that, or worse to dismiss it...just not good at all. It's one thing to take it serious and have the doctorbe the one to say "You're complaining, it's not a big deal" but to have aspecific plan in place from the doctor and to just dismiss it like that isindefensible. There could be more fault to go around (maybe the dentist,

4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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maybe the hospital) but the blame to me certainly has to go nearly all onthe MP and his wife.permalink save parent give gold

[–] hitchcocklikedblonds 2 points 1 hour ago

I agree. I teach young ADULTS and I would never stop one of themfrom leaving class if they felt ill or were in pain.permalink save parent give gold

[–] thebumm 1 point 1 hour ago

Not to pile on, but you had a point I didn't really touch on that I probably shouldhave addressed, and I apologize.

Your point that OP never specified a cause of death is valid. However, cause ofdeath in this case actually doesn't matter. What MP and wife did wrong in thiscase is deny access to a healthcare professional. While OP's sister's death couldbe completely unrelated to her tooth issues (not likely, but possible) a visit tothe doctor would have raised her chances of finding/addressing/curing anyproblem she may have had, if even slightly. The fact isn't that they didn't allowher mouth pain to be assessed, but that they didn't allow anything to beaddressed at all. That is bad on its own, whatever the autopsy finds. But yes, Ido believe the COD will be related and that makes it so much worse consideringhow much time and how many warnings were ignored and dismissed by those ina position of power and trust.permalink save parent give gold

[–] astralboy15 1 point just now

MPs wife allowed her to have surgery.

But bottom line, missionaries are adults..

And I hate to do this, but follow that logic is the mom also to blame? Surelythe mom had full disclosure on the situation and still said to not go to theDr...Just sayin'. If were casting blame, cast it fairlypermalink save parent give gold

[–] jurroot BYUI do 1 point 2 hours ago

http://crystalboatright.blogspot.com/permalink save parent give gold

[–] astralboy15 1 point 5 minutes ago

The whole thing or a specific post?permalink save parent give gold

[–] _hownowbrowncow_ 1 points 2 hours ago

"God's will"

/scans universe

To all: "Don't masturbate. And her she specifically must die or my entire plan fails"permalink save give gold

[–] UOUPv2 3 points 2 hours ago

4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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Poor Baxter...permalink save parent give gold

[+] drpeterfoster comment score below threshold (2 children)

[–] CherrySlush 3 points an hour ago

They didn't force her not to go. She did not go of her free will. Blame your mother aswell....permalink save give gold

[+] Hubertoi comment score below threshold (1 child)

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4/14/2015 My sister killed on her mission by the Mission President's Wife in Portland : exmormon

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