COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO ALLEGATIONS OF POLICE INEFFICIENCY IN KHAYELITSHA AND A BREAKDOWN IN RELATIONS BETWEEN THE COMMUNITY

AND POLICE IN KHAYELITSHA PHASE ONE

Faisal Abrams and Hanif Loonat

Date: 4 February 2014 Source: Pages 1393-1471 of Commission t ranscr ipt

MS BAWA: We worked very wel l dovetai l ing the two witnesses yesterday so we are going to give i t another shot today. We have Mr Hanif Loonat and Mr Faisal Abrams is giving evidence. COMMISSIONER: Good af ternoon Mr Loonat, thank you very much for making yoursel f avai lable to the Commission and for your extensive statement. We are gratefu l to you for i t . You are aware of course that the pro ceedings of the Commission are in publ ic and that your name and that the evidence that you wi l l give may wel l be made publ ic as a result of the Commission’s report - both as a resul t of the Commission’s report and through the media. MR LOONAT: I am aware. COMMISSIONER: Good. Do you have any object ion to that at a l l? MR LOONAT: No object ions. COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. I understand that you wi l l be test i fying in Engl ish, is that correct? MR LOONAT: Correct . COMMISSIONER: And do you have any object ion to taking the oath? MR LOONAT: No. HANIF LOONAT: (Sworn States) COMMISSIONER: Good. Did you want me to swear in the second witness as wel l whose statement I am just quickly t rying to f ind here? MS BAWA: Yes please. COMMISSIONER: I don’t seem to have i t . I t has got lost between al l my papers. Can we hold that over for a minute and you can lead Mr Loonat in the meant ime. Thank you. Thank you Mr Loonat. EXAMINATION BY MS BAWA: Mr Loonat you are current ly sel f -employed? MR LOONAT: That is correct . MS BAWA: And you had been appointed as the Western Cape Community Pol ice Board Chairperson in 2001. MR LOONAT: 2011. MS BAWA: 2011 - sorry. Could you br ief ly expla in your appointment and the removal f rom the board subsequent thereto? MR LOONAT: I was elected in July 2011 at a specia l ly cal led meet ing. This meet ing had been cal led by the Provincia l Commissioner to f i l l the vacant posi t ion; eventual ly suspended by the Provincia l Commissioner in July 2013, re instate d with

al l charges dropped f ive days af ter a new board was elected at a specia l general meet ing in September 2013. MS BAWA: Okay. Now could you expla in to the Commission what is your involvement and background with CPFs? MR LOONAT: I have been involved in CPFs ever s ince i ts instatement, i ts establ ishment in 1995 on instruct ion of the then most honourable late President Nelson Mandela. I sat in Commissions where the working committee had to put pol ic ies together out in Pretor ia under the then Commis sioner Fivas so I have been involved in th is posi t ion ever s ince then to the suspension and the removal of my of f ice. MS BAWA: You had held execut ive posi t ions on the CPFs in Actonvi l le , Alberton and Benoni is that correct? MR LOONAT: That is correct . MS BAWA: And then in 2005 you re located to Cape Town and you became a member of the Lansdowne CPF? MR LOONAT: That is correct . MS BAWA: You then became the chairperson of the Lansdowne CPF in 2007. MR LOONAT: That is correct . MS BAWA: And you held that posi t ion unt i l you were appointed as the Nyanga cluster chairperson in 2009. Is that correct? MR LOONAT: Correct , that is correct . MS BAWA: Now in your statement you describe and I wi l l put the background to you, how the uniform Const i tut ion of the CPFs came about. Can you br ief ly expla in that process to the Commission? MR LOONAT: I th ink the Western Cape was one of the f i rst provinces that had i ts own independent Const i tut ion. The establ ishment of th is Const i tut ion took place over many - I am sure my col league would know - over two years. I t was wel l over two years with consultat ion with both the community based members, the Department of Community Safety and the South Af r ican Pol ice Service and that is the product that we have today as the Const i tut ion of the Western Cape. COMMISSIONER: Thank you Ms Bawa. Thank you Mr Loonat. As you are going to be referr ing to a col league for conf i rmat ion I th ink i t is appropriate to swear h im in at the moment. Good af ternoon Mr Abrams and welcome to the proceedings of the Commission. MR ABRAMS: Good af ternoon. COMMISSIONER: And thank you very much as wel l for the statement you’ve made to the Commission . . . ( intervent ion) MR ABRAMS: The pleasure is mine. COMMISSIONER: You heard me describ ing to Mr Loonat that the proceedings are in publ ic and that both your evidence and your name may be made publ ic. MR ABRAMS: Yes. COMMISSIONER: And you have no object ion to that? MR ABRAMS: Absolute ly not . COMMISSIONER: Thank you and you are going to test i fy in Engl ish when you do test i fy? MR ABRAMS: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Alr ight , do you have any object ion to taking the oath? MR ABRAMS: No. FAISAL ABRAMS: (Sworn States) COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much and in these circumstances I th ink i t wi l l just be helpfu l for you to just indicate where answers are coming f rom so that the t ranscr ipt ion may be clear, but thank you very much indeed. I wi l l hand back to Ms Bawa. MS BAWA: Now Mr Loonat whi lst you personal ly have s ome dif f icul t ies with the uniform Const i tut ion you accept that i t is a Const i tut ion that is accepted in the Western Cape? MR LOONAT: I accept i t , yes. MS BAWA: When i t comes to the establ ishment of CPFs ul t imately the statute regulates how CPFs is to be establ ished and “the statute” I mean the South Afr ican Pol ice Act which we wi l l cal l the SAPS Act just for short and that contemplates that the responsib i l i ty or the duty to establ ish CPFs l ies with the Provincia l Commissioner of pol ice subject to the direct ion of the MEC for Community Safety, a lr ight , and that responsib i l i ty in terms of the Consti tut ion is delegated to the stat ion commanders of the var ious stat ions. MR LOONAT: That is correct . MS BAWA: Now Mr Loonat te l l us a l i t t le b i t about th e experiences of how CPFs get establ ished in pract ical terms? MR LOONAT: CPFs have to be establ ished f rom the bottom up, f rom a bottom up approach. You wi l l f ind that street commit tees are f i rst set up with neighbourhood watches of which a sector forum which is now cal led the sub -forum has to be formed and the sub-forum in each precinct is cut up into sectors and these sectors then get together. The chairpersons of these sectors then assist in the establ ishment of the CPFs. The CPF covers the whole po l ic ing area for example if you take Lansdowne i t is cut up into three sectors and i t has then a chairperson that runs the precinct . Those three sector chairpersons then have to report to th is part icular chairperson. Lansdowne then belongs to a c luster wh ich is cal led the Nyanga cluster. I wi l l use i t i f i t is f ine with you for my explanat ion purposes. I t is then - the Nyanga cluster has nine precincts with in i t so what happens the nine chairperson - I am sorry, I said n ine. Seven chairpersons then meet to e lect a c luster chairperson. The cluster chairperson would then be in charge of the seven precincts with in the cluster. The Western Cape has 25 clusters. The 25 cluster chairpersons then get together under the instruct ion of the Provincia l Commissioner where a committee, an execut ive commit tee is e lected to represent the 25 sectors / c lusters, I am sorry, in the province. MS BAWA: Okay but i f we go back to the start, when we elect th is sector who gets to e lect the representat ive in the sector? MR LOONAT: Al l organisat ions with in the sector. MS BAWA: And how does i t get determined what the organisat ions in the sector is? MR LOONAT: I t is the duty of the sector manager to ensure that a l l organisat ions al l businesses, any ent i ty that fa l ls i n that, including school governing bodies, sport ing coaches, that are with in that sector gets registered under the South

Afr ican Pol ice Service and they then get informed of the intent ion to establ ish the sector. MS BAWA: Now you ra ised two th ings, when you refer to the sector manager are you referr ing to the SAPS sector manager? MR LOONAT: Yes, that happens to be a SAPS member. MS BAWA: Okay and when you ta lk about “registered under SAPS”, what are you referr ing to? MR LOONAT: They need to register with the precinct of the area. MS BAWA: And how do they get to register with the precinct? MR LOONAT: I t is important that the sector manager goes about doing that . Yes, i t goes through a prof i l ing process where each business is prof i led by the said ent i ty. MS BAWA: So the sector manager compi les a l is t of organisat ions and businesses or interest groups in the sector and through that process a sector representat ive is then elected f rom the community? MR LOONAT: A sector execut ive is, yes. MS BAWA: Okay. Now are those the same as what you referred to as community pol ice sub-forums? MR LOONAT: That is now cal led the sub -forums, yes. MS BAWA: I t is cal led sub-forums so your CPF structure starts with your bot tom -up community and businesses, your community members, they become your sub -forums. Those sub-forums feed into your CPFs. Your CPFs feed into your c luster and your c luster feed into your board. That is how the structure grows? MR LOONAT: That is how we do i t . MS BAWA: Alr ight . Now who can at tend CPFs meet ings? MR LOONAT: I t is encouraged that the sub -forum chairpersons, the neighbourhood watch coordinator, the vict im support coordinator, the counci l lors of the area, the pol ic ing of the said precinct , metro pol ice, the three t iers with in metro; that is law enforcement pol ice and the other departments. There are three departments in that so that at tends i t and any interested part ies. I t is open to the publ ic. In fact the publ ic is a l lowed to at tend CPFs meet ings al thou gh they don’t have vot ing r ights. MS BAWA: And how are CPF meet ings meant to be made publ ic? How does the ordinary person in the street get to know about the CPF meet ing? MR LOONAT: There is a standard process that we encourage in the Western Cape where we ask for a def in i te week and day of the month. In the Western Cape we say the f i rst week must be al l sub -forum meet ings, the second week al l CPF meet ings, the th ird week al l c luster meet ings and the fourth week is your provincia l meet ing. MS BAWA: Okay and how successful has the establ ishment of CPFs been general ly? MR LOONAT: Good in the Western Cape. MS BAWA: And in other provinces? MR LOONAT: There are chal lenges in some of the provinces but in the Western Cape we have done remarkably wel l in establ ishing CPFs. MS BAWA: And what are the - I mean Sect ion 20, the Const i tut ion contemplates

the establ ishment and then Sect ion 18 of the SAPS Act sets out some of the responsib i l i t ies that l ie with CPFs but in pract ical terms now that we ha ve had some of these CPFs up and running or a number of them what are the main tasks that CPFs are meant to do? MR LOONAT: The two most important tasks is obviously to bui ld a re lat ionship as intended by our honourable late President Nelson Mandela, is to bui ld th is re lat ionship between the South Af r ican Pol ice Service and the community. That is the main and the most arter ia l progress that we are to establ ish in CPFs but in the other end we’d have an oversight responsib i l i ty over the South Af r ican Pol ic e Service and other law enforcement ent i t ies and there are many other purposes. I mean they need to - over and above the bui ld ing of re lat ionship between the two ent i t ies they need to make sure that communit ies are regular ly being informed of cr ime trends, cr ime on a regular basis. They need to come up with projects that would counter and combat these types of cr imes in those areas. MS BAWA: Now you have had some experience speci f ical ly with Khayel i tsha but before we turn to Khayel i tsha there is someth ing cal led an annual safety p lan. Could you te l l us a l i t t le b i t more about i t? MR LOONAT: I t is obl iged that every stat ion has a safety p lan drawn up for the f inancia l year and what happens is, i t is done through a process where the stat ion commanders has to inform certa in - in fact the NGOs that I said that has to be registered, the businesses of the area, in conjunct ion with a l l these groupings a plan has to be then put together to establ ish a safety plan that is going to help that part icular precinc t in the combat ing of cr ime for that part icular year. MS BAWA: Are you - there is a lways a legal concept cal led “ in consultat ion with” in other words you prepare something in consultat ion with the part ies and then there is something that we do “af ter consultat ion” and that means when it is done deal and almost a done deal but we are now going to consult wi th you. What ro le does CPFs play? How would you categorise given the example I am giving you? MR LOONAT: No i t is very c lose to my heart . I t is something that I have been ra is ing since my chairpersonship in t he Western Cape that i t is common pract ice that the South Af r ican Pol ice Service does not ensure that the ent i t ies that I have just ment ioned earl ier get invi ted. So what happens is th is product is being put together by the South Af r ican Pol ice Service an d that the CPFs in most cases - I am not saying in major i ty, in a l l of them, but I would say in a major i ty of the precincts that th is is a common pract ice that the stat ion commander puts together - with her team puts the product together and gets i t rubber stamped by the CPF chairperson without giving them an opportuni ty of making any inputs and that has been something that I have been ra ising over years of my chairpersonship. MS BAWA: Do you have any personal knowledge as to how i t was done at the three Khayel i tsha precincts? MR LOONAT: I am not too sure if i t was done in these three precincts. MS BAWA: Now Mr Loonat we have been - you have not seen i t . I have not shown th is to you but we have asked SAPS to provide us with the minutes of the CPF meet ings f rom 1 January 2010 and we have been given roughly the minutes provided for the period 1 January 2010 t i l l roughly August 2012, both in re lat ion to the three pol ice stat ions as wel l as in re lat ion to the cluster and I had an

opportuni ty to look at that . Would you be surpr ised if I said to you that there was very l i t t le i f any and in some cases no discussion of an annual safety p lan? MR LOONAT: I am not surpr ised at a l l . In fact i t is vindicat ing on what I have just said. MS BAWA: Now why is i t important that the community have part ic ipat ion or have insight into the safety p lan? MR LOONAT: In most instances I need to inform the house here that at most t imes i t is the community that knows about the cr ime trends and the cr ime that is purportedly taking place in those precincts. SAPS would not have a recordal of every cr ime that takes place because many of these cases they go unreported for reasons known to a l l of us. I mean people tend to have th is no t rust at t i tude against the South Af r ican Pol ice Service so they feel that they do not have to report the cr imes that are perpetrated on a dai ly basis, so the best people to make inputs in the compi lat ion of that product would obviously be the community based members represent ing the communit ies at the CPF but i t is unfortunate that they aren’t being ut i l ised construct ively and purposeful ly. MS BAWA: So if I take that a l i t t le b i t further the pol ice through the cr ime stat ist ics may determine where the hotspots are in the area but i f they had go tten the input of the CPFs those hotspots might take on a completely d i f ferent d imension because the community might have a dif ferent percept ion of where the hotspot areas are to what the pol ice would have. Is that what you are t rying to say? MR LOONAT: Def in i te ly. That is exact ly what I am trying to say. MS BAWA: Okay now in re lat ion to these safety p lans what is the role of the cluster commander? MR LOONAT: The cluster commander ensures that these safety p lans are reached to h is of f ice before he goes to the Provincia l Commissioner. He studies them and i t obviously helps him in the combating of cr ime in obviously resourcing in many ways human resources vehic les and al l other i tems that are necessary for the stat ion so you would know exact ly how to p lan his cluster when he gets these documents. MS BAWA: Alr ight , and would you expect the cluster commander - there is a lso a c luster CPF forum. Would you expect that the cluster commander would deal with these annual safety p lans at the cluster CPF meet ings? MR LOONAT: That is what should be happening. MS BAWA: And if you have a cluster commander that hasn’t met for months in any given annual year what would the impact of that be? MR LOONAT: That in i tself is a great in just ice to that commu nity i f that has happened. I t should not be a pract ice where a month passes without a c luster commander having a meet ing with h is c luster chairpersons so i t is real ly important that he meets on a regular basis, at least once a month. MS BAWA: We have been provided with an af f idavi t f rom a pol ice of f icer, a captain who has been responsib le for the record keeping of minutes with regard to the Khayel i tsha cluster community pol ice forum board and th is is found in Bundle 4 , under the “c luster command documen ts” and i t is i tem 10 and I want to read you an extract f rom th is af f idavi t .

“The f i rst meet ing of the cluster board took place on 1 Apri l 2010 and the AGM held on 11 Apri l . The f i rst of f ic ia l meet ing was held on 13 May 2010. A meet ing did not take place during June as a result of too many apologies that were received and a quorum could not be reached. Thereafter meet ings were held on a regular basis. I t was however during the months of November and December 2010 that Ms Bassier, whom had been our chai rperson was re-elected as provincia l chairperson and no meet ings took place.” “So where we go f rom July we have meet ings, August, September, October, we don’t have November and December. The chairperson then gets replaced but they don’t have meet ings duri ng December and January because it is fest ive season and I want to come back to that issue. Meet ings are then not held in December and January because i t is fest ive season and then meet ings are not held in March, Apri l , June and July because the cluster commander was not present to steer the commit tee. The major general who had been act ing at the t ime then held a meet ing in May, so we don’t have December, we don’t have January, we don’t have - we have February, we don’t have March, we don’t have Apri l . W e have May. We don’t have June. We don’t have July and then we have a newly appointed cluster commander with whom you have experience who comes in during August 2011, but no meet ings are held as f rom September to January 2012. So now we have got nothing for September, October, November, December, January and then certa in decis ions get taken at the meet ing in August where i t was decided to hold meet ings every second month and the EXCO to meet in between. Meet ings were also cal led but could not be held as a result of other commitments by stat ions as wel l as s imi lar dates for meet ings which were the same as stat ion CPF meet ings. During the meet ing held in February 2012 i t was found that certa in members were not fu l ly cooperat ing and th is needed to be dealt wi th by the Major General who tr ied to revive the CPF by cal l ing a steering commit tee to l i fe to reach a conclusion regarding the reason for non -meet ings. This was done and there is a report at tached to which I am going to refer. Thereaf ter there were n o meet ings held for the months of March and Apri l 2012. There was a meet ing held in May or was scheduled to be held in May but i t had been cancel led as a result of non-attendance of the chairperson as wel l as poor at tendance. The Major General fe l l i l l dur ing that t ime and yet again we had problems in th is regard as the Colonel handled al l these aspects. No meet ings were thereafter held in August and December 2012 as a result of the abovement ioned issues and the fest ive period we did not have a meeting.” “We are now into 2013. I th ink I can count on one hand how much meetings we have had. No meet ings were held in January, February, March 2013 as the steering commit tee met qui te a few t imes and reached a conclusion. A meet ing was held in June 2013 but not July as

i t was the by-month. They were now meet ing every two months. Another meet ing was then again held in August 2013. Now that is our cluster CPF in Khayel i tsha.”

What are your comments? MR LOONAT: I am not surpr ised at a l l . I t is one of th e reasons why myself and on behalf of the board we did ask General Ndlovu at the t ime that we needed to have elect ions which I am sure you subsequent ly - I don’t know i f you’ve ment ioned i t , that we had a re -elect ion of new members onto the cluster for the Khayel i tsha cluster. MS BAWA: Now is i t common if you have properly funct ioning CPFs that you have such a dysfunct ional c luster CPF? MR LOONAT: I f ind i t st range that the chairperson could not make i t and the meet ing has been cal led of f . You obviou sly have other members with in the cluster board that could take over the ro le of chairpersonship. You’ve got the deputy chair . In the case of the deputy chair not making i t then obviously the secretary can then chair the meet ing and obviously i f any of t hose three are not there then you don’t have a quorum so in the absence of just one person I f ind i t st range that they could not have a meet ing. MS BAWA: Wel l that is the factual s i tuat ion. What is your view on CPFs taking the view, as I understand i t we have peak season, the fest ive season is the peak season for cr ime and SAPS has told us that repeatedly but we have CPFs who don’t funct ion during fest ive season. Is that the norm in how CPFs operate? Mr Abrams looks l ike he wants to comment in re lat i on thereto. MR ABRAMS: That is def in i te ly not the way CPFs should be funct ioning whether i t is f rom cluster level or r ight down to sub -forum level. CPFs the Consti tut ion is very c lear with in the CPF. We have a cycle of 12 months start ing f rom the f inancia l year to the end of the f inancia l year. So clear ly in what you are saying there is a dysfunct ional i ty with in that process and strangely in view of the absenteeism of certa in chairpersons not avai l ing themselves at c luster meet ings they are avai l ing themselves at provincia l board meet ings so I f ind that a l i t t le b i t conf l ict ing in view of the absence of not having any meet ings. I f there wasn’t any meeting I th ink there is a great dysfunct ional i ty with in the Khayel i tsha cluster. MS BAWA: Now I am not going to take you to the minutes of the actual CPF meet ings but the same kind of p icture emerges i f one looks at the actual CPF minutes for the stat ion. Alr ight , you ment ioned in your af f idavi t that the members of the forums may upon the invi tat ion of the re levant commander at tend management meeting of the service for the durat ion of d iscussions re lat ing to community pol icy issues and you ident ify those meet ings as being the “stat ion cr ime combat ing forum meet ings.” What can you te l l me about those? MR LOONAT: In fact we encourage al l our chairpersons to at tend those SCCFs. I t is I th ink s ince my removal i t has now moved to a Tuesday but i t used to be every Monday at every stat ion where the stat ion management team si ts and then discloses the cr ime of the week before and a th ing then is put together where th is management team with the help of the chairperson of the CPF then come up with a p lan to combat the cr imes that has af fected that area for the week so we

encourage and in fact insist that our chairpersons at tend and si t in a l l those meet ings. MS BAWA: Wel l we have been provided with the minutes of the meet ings for 2012 for SCCF bodies in Khayel i tsha. One of the stat ions and I stand under correct ion but I th ink i t is Harare invi te local businesses. The other two stat ions have nobody present but SAPS members. I understand that these meet ings are actual ly regarded as conf ident ia l operat ional meet ings? MR LOONAT: You are correct . I f ind i t st range that business attends these meet ings when only CPF chairpersons or h is delegate can attend those meet ings because you are discussing issues that are extremely conf ident ia l . MS BAWA: Wel l I must be honest wi th you Mr Loonat, I looked at the minutes. I have great d if f iculty in f inding extreme conf ident ia l issues at these minutes, but that is a debate not to be had with you. So i t is contemplated that there is an exchange of informat ion between the CPFs and t he stat ion about patterns of cr ime in the community. Is that correct? MR LOONAT: Correct . MS BAWA: And what is the impact of that i f there is a breakdown in that communicat ion? MR LOONAT: In fact i t is a great d iscredit to the community concerned when there is no re lat ionship between both ent i t ies. For many reasons and one most important ly is obviously that i t is a proven fact that 70% of your cr ime are resolved with informat ion that comes f rom the community and the community re lay th is informat ion through your CPFs then i f there is no partnership or there is no re lat ionship you are actual ly cut t ing of f an integral part of the partnership in the combat ing of cr ime in that area. MS BAWA: Okay. Now you have yoursel f vis i ted Khayel i tsha Pol ice St at ions, is that correct? MR LOONAT: Yes. MS BAWA: Which pol ice stat ions in Khayel i tsha have you vis i ted? MR LOONAT: Al l three of them but most of my vis i ts were Lingelethu -West and obviously Harare. MS BAWA: Okay and you have also been part of patro ls in Khayel i tsha? MR LOONAT: Yes, very of ten. MS BAWA: Now you gave evidence of a patro l that occurred in Easter 2012. Can you te l l us what happened with that patro l? MR LOONAT: This was a jo int in i t ia t ive taken with the Department of Commu nity Safety and the board where we decided that we were going to implement a project : “Safe Khayel i tsha Easter Weekend” and i t was an extremely successful one having the two ent i t ies coming together asking the South Af r ican Pol ice Service to a l low th is p roject to take place in Khayel i tsha and I would l ike to applaud General Ndlovu in her absence now that she has been transferred for cooperat ing so extensively and assist ing us making i t a successful one. The fact that I have ment ioned that the year before that we had 23 murders in th is area with in that same period; that part icular weekend we only had a single murder for Khayel i tsha in i ts ent i rety and th is year again where we did not have the project taking place we had 17 murders.

MS BAWA: How do these patro ls actual ly work? What needs to be in p lace for community patro ls to work? MR LOONAT: I would l ike Faisal to answer that . MR ABRAMS: Well in the f i rst p lace community the CPFs has got neighbourhood watches that belong to the CPF in a l l the sec tor so the neighbourhood watches would be coordinated throughout a l l of the CPFs with in Khayel i tsha at that weekend. Invi tat ions were also extended to other CPFs to come and assist over that weekend. To ment ion i t was the areas of Delf t and the areas of Els ies River. Those members were present at Mitchel ls Pla in over that weekend to assist and that - there were over 250 members including the Khayel i tsha community that assisted with that patro ls over that specif ic Easter weekend. MS BAWA: And was the assistance obtained f rom SAPS on that weekend? MR ABRAMS: Well the assistance f rom SAPS was making members avai lable f rom the precincts that would be a team that would walk with us. Some of them would be reservists. Some would be members that is on shi f t that would walk with us over that specif ic weekend. MS BAWA: And what was the part ic ipat ion of SAPS in the actual patro ls? MR ABRAMS: Well not throughout the whole Easter weekend did we get the fu l l support of SAPS. The f i rst evening which was on the 5 t h of Apri l we had a good cont ingency of SAPS members with the team of volunteers of the neighbourhood watches and that actual ly started to dwindle as we ended on the 9 t h of Apri l . In other words the presence of the pol ice started to get lesser. MS BAWA: And what was that at t r ibuted to? Why was that so? MR ABRAMS: Well I th ink i t was at tr ibuted to members being on leave, members being on sick leave, members not being at work, those were some of the reports we received when we asked where the members are. That was the feedback that was given to us. MS BAWA: Now both - Mr Abrams whi le I have got you there, both you and Mr Loonat have vis i ted Khayel i tsha pol ice stat ions and you have had experiences there. Can you te l l the Commission a l i t t le b i t about your experiences? What have you seen about the pol ice stat ions, the members, the vehic les? MR ABRAMS: Well in my experience and th is is as I have under oath said just the t ruth, in some areas you would f ind members - and th is is my observat ion . A lesser ranked member would disrespect a member h igher ranked. There just doesn’t seem to be that d iscip l ine. When you ment ion that , you know, i t is not real ly taken seriously. The observat ion of . . . ( intervent ion) MS BAWA: Mr Abrams can I stop you for a moment. I know you have had experiences with Khayel i tsha, with pol ice stat ions across the province or across the City. Can we restr ict the evidence you give to the experiences you’ve had in Khayel i tsha specif ical ly so that i t avoids us having to have a bat t le a b i t later . . . ( intervent ion) MR ABRAMS: I am speaking specif ical ly of Khayel i tsha. MS BAWA: Okay. MR ABRAMS: I am not ment ioning any other precinct in my evidence that I am leading here. I t is specif ical ly Khayel i tsha where vehic les were parked in the yard. Some vehicles had a puncture and the vehic le was inoperable. When you quest ion

that you get a long answer in terms of why that vehic le is there and the process and where they have to take the vehic le to have i t re paired. In my opin ion I mean to change a tyre certa in ly is not a t ra in smash to have that vehic le back into the community to service the community. Those are some of the observat ions and some of the comments that was made and brought to the at tent ion of the cluster commander. MS BAWA: Mr Loonat could you? MR LOONAT: Yes, I would l ike to say that i t was shocking to see on an Easter weekend that one sector van had to be used for two sectors. I mean that is unusual especia l ly in a t ime of Easter where we f ind people f requent ing shebeens in a l l hours of the night . I t was important that we had vis ib i l i ty, pol ice vis ib i l i ty and i t was not existent for reasons as ment ioned by my col league due to absenteeism. In fact one of the stat ion of f icers ment ioned to me that many of h is members had stayed away unoff ic ia l ly without informing them. I t was with undue leave and they didn’ t even inform them they are not coming back to work for that weekend. MS BAWA: And what d id you do with the informat ion that was r e layed to you? MR LOONAT: I t was carr ied over to the cluster commander. MS BAWA: And what happened subsequent to that? MR LOONAT: We did - I d id not fo l low i t up. I lef t i t in her good hands. MS BAWA: So Mr Loonat when you are advised of problems, let ’s take Khayel i tsha for instance and a problem at the pol ice stat ion is ra ised with you, what do you do with that knowledge? MR LOONAT: I have to ra ise i t ; procedural ly I have to ra ise i t wi th my cluster chairperson as a cluster - as the provinc ia l chairperson because I cannot overr ide the cluster chairperson. I f the cluster chairperson does nothing about i t then I have to then speak to a c luster commander and if the cluster commander does nothing about i t then I go to the provincia l board and f rom there i t obviously reaches the Provincia l Commissioner. MS BAWA: So on Easter weekend when you had communicat ion with the then cluster commander about the informat ion that was re layed to you and you got no - d id you get any feedback on i t? MR LOONAT: No. No feedback at a l l . MS BAWA: And what d id you do having not received any feedback? MR LOONAT: To date nothing. MS BAWA: Why not? MR LOONAT: I th ink I am to be blamed, because I d id not ask for a feedback on the said. In fact what happened is for that durat ion there was no cluster chairperson at tending meet ings, provincia l meet ings. That is exact ly why we had to get a board put together and put in p lace to replace the board that was not funct ioning at the t ime. MS BAWA: Now you say in your statements that the neighbourhood watches are much stronger and more inclusive than the CPF structures. Why do you say that? MR LOONAT: That is f rom my experience that weekend. We found very view of the execut ive members of the CPF part ic ipat ing in that walkabout. I t was al l neighbourhood watch members only. MS BAWA: And I know Mr Abrams has a part icular view about that . What k ind of

t ra in ing do you require to be given to neighbourhood watches and CPFs and what k ind of t ra in ing have they been gett ing? MR ABRAMS: Well f i rst and foremost neighbourhood watches are given the legal f ramework in terms of their dut ies. They are given the legal f ramework in terms of the Const i tut ion of the universal uniform Const i tut ion of the Western Cape. T hey are also given an induct ion with regards to themselves taking care of themselves and taking care of each other. There is a number of but most of the induct ion and the t ra in ing that is given is more documented than pract ical . MS BAWA: Okay and who g ives the t ra in ing? MR ABRAMS: The Department of Community Safety at one stage gave seven days t ra in ing which the neighbourhood watches would get t ra in ing at Chrysal is. That was reduced to two days t ra in ing. I t was reviewed and i t was given over a period of two days and therefore I am saying to t ra in neighbourhood watches with in two days i t is inadequate in order to real ly become funct ional in your dut ies as a neighbourhood watch patro l ler. You have got two days and al l our people taking into account are not people that has got academic backgrounds or that has got matr ic cert i f icates. I t is people that are f rom the normal man in the street so two days for that type of t ra in ing / legal f ramework, and people go there because they are going to get a cert i f i cate and they are there to make sure that that is what they have achieved. Something to say I have been part of the system. MS BAWA: I understand besides the DOCS the City a lso does t ra in ing with neighbourhood watches. Do they st i l l do that? MR ABRAMS: Yes I am aware that City a lso gives t ra in ing and their t ra in ing lasts over a period of one day which is a lso just another f ramework and again i t is a l l the f ramework of legal jargon. Again in view of the City and the Department of Community Safety saying there used to be and I want to put th is in the past tense. In the beginning when the City was busy with their t ra in ing for neighbourhood watches there was conf l ict . One had a l ime jacket. One had a navy blue or a royal b lue jacket and because of being tra ined and th is t ra in ing in the beginning was arranged by local counci l lors there was conf l ict amongst the neighbourhood watches in the sense that i t would take a month for the neighbourhood watches of the department to be resourced. I t would take a we ek for the City’s neighbourhood watches to be resourced so that conf l ict of having resources would be amongst them and then obviously when you come with a l ime jacket and you come without the introduct ion and the playing f ie lds real ly being level led there was conf l ict and it would in certa in areas would lead to conf l ict. Even amongst themselves they would f ight with each other because of th is agreement just because of a colour, just because you belong to the City and you belong to the DOCS. I want to take the statement further and say we have been able through ef forts of the provincia l board to br ing the two together where we have, an agreement, a l though not fu l ly part ic ipated by the Department of Community Safety and I have got records and emai ls to that ef fect where I have t r ied to faci l i tate both part ies to come to the table so that we can have an understanding. The Mayoral Committee Mr J P Smith was very accommodat ing and he al lowed his faci l i tator Charl Vi l joen to f i rst communicate with CPFs whenever there is t ra in ing. That e l iminated the conf l ict and today when we have patro ls i t is not about the yel low, i t is not about the blue.

I t is about the community going out there. MS BAWA: But in your view Mr Abrams what k ind of t ra in ing should you be giv ing to CPFs and neighbourhood watches? That is what interests us. What with your experience should they be gett ing? MR ABRAMS: I think t ra in ing should be ongoing. I th ink t ra in ing should be in order to a l low people to understand their ro les and their funct ions which i f one looks at the two di f ferent t ra in ings you wi l l see that one speaks more, the City’s t ra in ing would speak more to ident ifying what they cal l the “broken window”. The department would concentrate more on the legal part . I would educa te my community in order to have the necessary resources to ensure that we do not just go out on patro ls as a group but we al low our communit ies to become the eyes of our streets with in our streets and that is where we wi l l st rengthen the community involvement as neighbourhood watches, where we wi l l be able to reduce cr ime, where we wi l l have access to immediate intervent ion. MS BAWA: Now Mr Abrams CPFs manage their own f inancia l af fa irs. Does any of the t ra in ing that they have been given to date involve how those f inancia l af fa irs should be managed? MR ABRAMS: Well that is part of the t ra in ing that should be given. I th ink in view of anyone that deals with money should have a background of at least being able to deal with f inances. There are a lot of CPFs, a lot of CPFs that are made up of the normal man in the street . I t is not at torneys. I t is not accountants. I t is the normal women and men in the street that form part of the CPF. These people are untra ined and the t ra in ing to def ini te ly be involving, where i t involves money should be concentrated in t hose areas where there is t reasurers e lected or project of f icers or managers. Those people should have dif ferent t ra in ing than the normal induct ions that is being given so that accountabi l i ty of any funds can be then accounted by them. MS BAWA: Okay. Now i f we come to resources what should they be resourced with? MR ABRAMS: The resources that is required f rom al l CPFs would be at least an of f ice, at least a te lephone or a cel l phone; at least a computer so that they can record and col lect their own data; have access to the internet, be able to d isseminate the normal newslet ters with in the community so that the community can be informed. The resources that they are also going to need is money. You can’t have people working on an empty stomach sit t in g at meet ings f rom six o 'c lock unt i l whether i t is n ine o 'c lock without at least giving them a cool dr ink or something to eat . So those are some of the shortcomings of some of the resources. Other resources that would possib ly be needed would be your two -way radios; would be your torches, would be your b icycles. Yes, we are being provided with that , but the process of i t , i t is taking too long. Again a s i tuat ion that is open for debate. MS BAWA: Mr Abrams we did an inspect ion at the Harare, L ingeleth u-West and Site B Pol ice Stat ions. They are burst ing at their seams. We have sixteen detect ives sharing rooms. We have the pol ice i tself being under pressure in having to deal with cr ime. I mean surely we can understand that i t is not a lways easy to say that you must give the CPF space at the pol ice stat ion. Do you have

any comment? I am rais ing th is speci f ical ly in the context of Khayel i tsha. MR ABRAMS: I ful ly understand where there is a s i tuat ion where detect ives are having to share faci l i t ies t hat obviously the f i rst prerogat ive of the stat ion commander would be to ensure the funct ional i ty of the pol ice stat ion. Somewhere i f we have to have a smal l faci l i ty, remember that i t can be a shared faci l i ty because the CPF wi l l only be in there once or twice a week and certa in ly arrangements can be made to accommodate that . I t shouldn’ t be a t ra in smash. MS BAWA: Now we ta lked about having access to money. The one lacuna that seems to be amongst th is myriad of legis lat ion that is being there to gov ern f rom the Const i tut ion down to the SAPS Act is nobody says who is responsib le for funding CPFs. I t a l l says that the Provincia l Commissioner is responsib le for establ ishing i t . The Const i tut ion places an obl igat ion on the province for promot ing community re lat ions but nobody says out of whose budget th is must come. MR ABRAMS: Well I th ink i f one looks at the Const i tut ion of the country in Sect ion 206(3) i t is very c lear that who should be responsib le for CPFs. Furthermore i t becomes the responsib i l i ty of the Department of Community Safety to ensure that we are resourced in terms of induct ions etcetera, etcetera. MS BAWA: Wel l Mr Abrams if the Department of Community Safety says they have assumed that responsib i l i ty but legis lat ively and in law there is nothing which compel them to have that responsib i l i ty. MR ABRAMS: Well then the Const i tut ion - certa in ly I am not reading the Const i tut ion correct of that Act 206(3). MS BAWA: Sorry I don’t have mine with me. COMMISSIONER: Sect ion 206(3) says: “Each province is ent i t led: (a) to monitor pol ice conduct;

(b) to receive the ef fect iveness and ef f ic iency of the pol ice service including receiving reports of the pol ice service;

(c) to promote good re lat ions between the pol ice and the community; (d) to assess the ef fect iveness of vis ib le pol ic ing; (e) to l ia ise with the cabinet member responsib le for

pol ic ing with respect to cr ime pol ic ing in the province.” So you are saying i t is that provis ion that should be interpreted? MR LOONAT: Commissioner i f you don’t mind if I could come in. My col league is referr ing to (c) of that what you have just read. How could one then be doing just ice to that part icular part of that recommendat ion if they are not being funded? I mean I am not going to be putt ing money f rom my pocket into an organisat ion that means nothing to my family; so obviously I need to be funded to be successful and to be obviously doing just ice to that part icular c lause. MS BAWA: So if I understand the evidence, i f you are going to promote good re lat ionships between the pol ice and the community then and is that your obl igat ion with that Const i tut ional obl igat ion you must ef fect ively fund to get that obl igat ion and if you are not doing i t through CPFs you must do i t in other ways to promote that good re lat ions. Is that what I understand you to be saying? MR LOONAT: Absolute ly, absolute ly.

MS BAWA: Now if we ta lk about funding as I understand i t the people who take part on the CPF give up their t ime. I t is not a salary job, is that correct? MR ABRAMS: That is correct . MS BAWA: So what would we need funding for? MR ABRAMS: Well current ly . . . ( intervent ion) MS BAWA: Besides the resources, we’ve covered resources. MR ABRAMS: Can you just repeat? MS BAWA: In Khayel i tsha what would you need funding for? MR ABRAMS: Well I th ink in terms of the Khayel i tsha si tuat ion there is a process which the Department of Community Safety has in p lace current ly but I fa i l to see that that funding module is a successful module under the circumstances. In the past i f you need funding, funding would be if you need to have a workshop, i f you need to have a workshop for t ransformat ion of understanding the happenings with in your community and you need to educate as a CPF certa in ly you are going to need, not a R 1 000, not R 2 000 but a project proposal. To who do you send that project proposal to in order to make a successful change with in your community, so that is the monies that could be used with in your community to br ing that t ransformat ion of change not only change with in the cr iminal system but a lso the change with in the socia l system. MS BAWA: Now Mr Abrams the programme you are referr ing to is the extended partnership programme and both you and Mr Loonat are on record here and in publ ic has not been in favour of the EPP pro gramme. Could you te l l us what your d i f f icul t ies are with the EPP programme and I wi l l put i t to you in th is way f rom where I am standing i t now seems as through the EPP programme the department has organised a template. They have tra ined members of the community who are members of the CPF to take that template, to do certa in inspect ions of pol ice stat ions far more regular ly than what the department could do with their resources and to report that back to the department which then becomes part of a furthe r report that goes on to the nat ional inspectorate or the Provincia l Commissioner. I t seems as if there is method in that madness, to put i t that way. What are your d i f f icul t ies with that project and I might be doing i t an in just ice in that br ief summary but that seems to be the way i t is operat ing. COMMISSIONER: Ms Bawa before the witnesses answer that quest ion, could you remind us where that is in the bundles, the EPP? MS BAWA: I am going to ask Ms Dissel to do that. COMMISSIONER: Oh okay. MS BAWA: I am of f l ine at the moment. ( ta lk ing in background) COMMISSIONER: Mr Osborne to you know? No he doesn’t . MR ARENDSE: No I wouldn’ t know. I was simply going to add that Mr Loonat is cr i t ical of the EPP in h is af f idavi t and I suppose that is where the - but I personal ly a lso did not . . . ( intervent ion) COMMISSIONER: No-no i t is just that I thought whi le the point is being made i t would be easier i f we are looking at the EPP, which I have looked at before, but I can’t remember where i t is . MR ARENDSE: Because i t is some kind of a scorecard and i t is cr i t ical of how . . . ( intervent ion)

COMMISSIONER: I t is in order to get funding you have to do a range of d i f ferent th ings. MR LOONAT: Yes. COMMISSIONER: Is there anybody who has got reference to i t in the bundles; that knows about i t ; otherwise we wi l l just proceed? MR LOONAT: I see the department is here Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: Oh that is r ight , I am just looking to see if they have. MS ADHIKARI: I f I might there is a copy of a specif ic memorandum of understanding signed with the Khayel i tsha CPF and that is in bundle . . . ( intervent ion) COMMISSIONER: Yes we are aware of that . I am actual ly looking for the EPP i tsel f . I understand the Khayel i tsha memorandum - I am understanding f rom 2013 . . . ( intervent ion) MS ADHIKARI: Wel l that sort of detai ls, i t is a concrete example of that and I can look for the actual . . . ( intervent ion) COMMISSIONER: Okay thanks Ms Adhikar i , i f you could f ind i t whi le the evidence is going that would be most helpfu l, thank you. Ms Bawa would you l ike to go ahead? MS BAWA: Yes. MR LOONAT: Commissioner, can I just for the record ask to ment ion another sect ion of the SAPS Act that would assist us, that would assist us in whose responsib i l i ty the CPF is lying. I t would be Act, the South Af r ican Pol ice Service Act 68 of 1995 Sect ion 18, where the service shal l in order to achieve the objects contemplated in Sect ion 215 of the Const i tut ion l ia ise with the community through community pol ice forums. Obviously I mean you don’t expect the South Af r ican Pol ice Service to expect the community based ent i ty to be f inancing a project of that nature, so obviously somebody has to f inance i t . COMMISSIONER: I t wi l l be helpfu l i f that lacuna were f i l led s omewhere and more specif ical ly they wouldn’ t have - I am sure i t would . . . ( intervent ion) MR LOONAT: Exact ly! COMMISSIONER: I t would avoid some conf l ict . MR LOONAT: That is i t . MS BAWA: So Mr Abrams you were about to te l l us what the dif f icul t ies are that you f ind with the EPP programme. MR ABRAMS: I th ink the EPP programme . . . ( intervent ion) MS BAWA: Just excuse me Mr Abrams just a minute. MS ADHIKARI: Ms Bawa my apologies, I have located t he conceptual f ramework i f that is the document that you are looking for. I t wi l l be found in Bundle 2 Fi le 3 , the Department of Community Safety documents. I t is under Fi le 11 of those documents I th ink. COMMISSIONER: 10. MS ADHIKARI: Fi le 10, my apologies and i t is i tem number 37. COMMISSIONER: 37 thank you very much. MS BAWA: Sorry Mr Abrams. MR ABRAMS: No problem. The EPP programme in i ts ent i rety is - I do not d isagree with the programme in i ts ent i rety. I th ink i t is a tool tha t can be useful

but not for the purpose that we have as CPFs. I t is a tool that can be useful . I t is a tool that can possib ly be br inging t ransformat ion. The problem that I have with the EPP programme is that i t would appear i f and th is is my understand ing, my percept ion that our CPFs of f ie ldwork is now with the Department of Community Safety get t ing a certa in amount of money for a certain amount of work done. I f that work is not done there is no payment. MS BAWA: But isn’ t that how l i fe works? You work, you get paid? MR ABRAMS: Well th is is an organisat ion that is voluntary, so whi le we are subjected to a voluntary organisat ion that must be paid, yes, I ’ve got no problem, you must work to earn money but here we have got a s i tuat ion that we have to do a certa in amount of report ing to ensure that a certa in amount of people is not necessari ly employed by the department to do that work which we are now doing as CPFs. MS BAWA: Wel l Mr Abrams let me understand that , th is money that is being paid for th is oversight that is part of the EPP programme, who gets the money? MR ABRAMS: The CPF gets the money. MS BAWA: So the member of the CPF who is doing the task is doing a f ree task in their personal capacity for the interest of the CPF who then gets money f rom the department? MR ABRAMS: Correct . MS BAWA: That is how i t operates? MR ABRAMS: Correct . MS BAWA: And that money then becomes the CPFs to use for whatsoever purpose the CPF wants to use i t? MR ABRAMS: That is correct . MS BAWA: And the CPF then doesn’t have to account to DOCS how they use the money because DOCS can just i fy that they have ef fect ively paid for a product which is the result of the inspect ions at the pol ice stat ion and the CPF can then do with the money as they see f i t for their community. That is how I understand the programme to work. MR ABRAMS: That is convenient ly so yes. MS BAWA: That is so, and that takes care of DOCS’ d i f f icul t ies in account ing for audit ing purposes what their money gets used for and i t takes away the CPFs di f f icul t ies in having to provide very compl icated account ing requirements for purposes of DOCS. Now where is the dif f icul ty? MR ABRAMS: Well the dif f icul ty is that when you are looking at in terms of the amount of moneys that CPFs a re earning. MS BAWA: Okay so what do they earn per month? MR LOONAT: Well i t can be anything between R 1 000 to R 3 000 a month. I t can be anything between there. I t could be nothing ei ther. MS BAWA: So the nub of the object ion is that the money which emanates f rom the EPP programme isn’ t suf f ic ient to sustain the kinds of act ivi t ies which the CPF should be engaged in? MR ABRAMS: Absolute ly. MS BAWA: That is the nub of i t? MR ABRAMS: Absolute ly.

MS BAWA: Okay now is there anything which stops the CPF f rom putt ing in a proposal or a funding proposal into the department for any workshop or project that they wish to run or is that avenue not open? MR ABRAMS: Well I have not engaged in any of the meet ings or I have not - there has been no informat ion that has come forth that such a proposal can be done f rom CPFs to the department or for specif ic programmes. However I am aware that there are organisat ions that can do that . However therefore the EPP programme in the past we had an administrat ion fee contr ibuted to CPFs that was an administrat ive of which the Department of Community Safety said they had di f f icul ty in having to t rack the audit ing of those monies, therefore they have introduced a EPP programme and as I have said before th e EPP programme is not a bad programme but in order for CPFs to funct ion, in order for CPFs to do what they do in terms of c ivi l ian oversight in terms of what they have to do with in the communit ies to br ing change, to br ing partnerships together, you are n ot going to be able to do that even i f you earn yoursel f the fu l l complement of the R 3 000 a month. You are not going to be able to do that . First you are going to resource yoursel f wi th possib ly a computer second -hand because you won’t get something for R 3 000. Then you would have to wait for the next month unt i l you can get a pr inter and so forth and so forth. By the t ime we would have lost so much with in our communit ies in terms of sharing informat ion; in terms of br inging construct ive change to our communit ies so therefore I am - i t is on that basis that I say the programme is not as ef fect ive as what i t should be. MS BAWA: Okay, i t does seem that i t is thus to the prejudice of the poorer communit ies in terms of t rying to establ ish a CPF because i t might be a programme that would work more successful ly in a more af f luent community that doesn’t require the same kind of resourcing. MR ABRAMS: Absolutely there are CPFs in af f luent areas that doesn’t even want to part ic ipate with in the EPP programme. MS BAWA: But what is the solut ion Mr Abrams because we are interested in f inding out how do you go about equipping and resourcing and support ing a wel l -funct ioning CPF in an area l ike Khayel i tsha? MR ABRAMS: Well i f i t is about accountabi l i ty in terms of f inances then I th ink a programme of accountabi l i ty in terms of t ra in ing those ident if ied persons in terms of proper management with in the PFMAs then people should get that resources so that to ensure that whatever monies is then contr ibuted to th ose communit ies is accountable. Secondly I would say that i f a project proposal for communit ies is given to the department or any other whether i t is to SAPS or to the department or i t is our - seems to be our two homes that we are somet imes divorced f rom , but be that as i t may the changes that we need to br ing in our communit ies is to ensure that there is enough funding that is introduced in areas where there is a need for change where we see there is a cr isis to ensure that the CPFs and organisat ions which is in that communit ies must take responsib i l i ty and accountabi l i ty for the administrat ion of that funds. MS BAWA: Mr Loonat not that I misrepresent but is being said but you do make the point in your af f idavi t that when programmes are put in p lace and money is given over that the appropriate checks and balances be put there. I have one last

quest ion before we put i t over for cross -examinat ion. When we look at Khayel i tsha specif ical ly and then we look at SAPS’ responsib i l i ty because we have been ta lk in g about 206(3) of the Const i tut ion, but the SAPS Act i tsel f lays the responsib i l i ty for the establ ishment of CPFs at the foot of the Provincia l Commissioner. What has SAPS done to fund CPFs? MR LOONAT: In fact I am aware that there are funds, look, d is tr ibuted f rom nat ional to a l l SAPS throughout the country. The nine provinces get a certa in amount of budget for programmes and projects in the combat ing of cr ime which in the Western Cape i t must be noted has never f i l tered down to the CPFs. Can I delve in the issue of the EPP and i t is important that I say why learned Mr Arendse has just ment ioned that I have been cr i t ical . I need to say why I am cr i t ical about the .. . ( intervent ion) MS BAWA: Go ahead Mr Loonat. MR LOONAT: Remember the EPP is an af ter the fact process. I t is af ter the cr ime has been commit ted that the CPF is f inanced on a project . I mean i t is - there I no reason for the CPF to be invest igat ing the South Af r ican Pol ice Service i f there is no cr ime. What is the Department of Com munity Safety doing with the funds they have in their possession to stop cr ime f rom happening? What is i t that they are doing proact ively? So that is my gr ipe and my cr i t ic ism of the EPP process. I don’t have a problem with the f inancing of our people. Yes, the quest ion is going to be ar is ing, I know, that I s igned of f the document. Wel l I was bul l ied into s igning i t for some reason but I wi l l ment ion that I am sure under cross-examinat ion. MS BAWA: I have no further quest ions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS BAWA COMMISSIONER: Thank you. We wi l l start wi th the complainant organisat ions and we have al located you ten minutes for th is witness. Then we’ l l move on to DOCS and then on to SAPS. MR HATHORN: Thank you Commissioners. Our quest ions have been covered already. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATHORN COMMISSIONER: Mr Osborne wi l l be next , we al located you twenty minutes Mr Osborne and then SAPS wi l l come next. MR ARENDSE: Yes, sorry Mr Arendse? COMMISSIONER: Yes sorry Mr Arendse? MR ARENDSE: Could we just have a one minute comfort break? COMMISSIONER: Yes, we could do that indeed. I t is twenty past three. Shal l we reconvene at just l i tera l ly two minutes, f ive minutes, twenty -f ive past three, okay. COMMISSION ADJOURNS: (at 15:20) ON RESUMPTION: (at 15:25) COMMISSIONER: We reconvene again. Mr Osborne you are going to have an opportuni ty now to put some quest ions to Mr Loonat. MR OSBORNE: Thank you Madam Chair. Advocate Adhikar i is going to deal with that a lso. COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms Adhikar i . MS ADHIKARI: Thank you Madam Chair.

MR LOONAT: I t is on behalf of? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Community Safety. COMMISSIONER: Just speak into the microphone otherwise i t is d i f f icul t for people to hear. MS ADHIKARI: My apologies. Thank you, is that bet ter? COMMISSIONER: Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS ADHIKARI : Mr Loonat and Mr Abrams, e i ther one of you can answer my quest ions. You ra ised the issue of t ra in ing of neighbourhood watches and you indicated that t ra in ing previously took place on a six or seven day, essent ia l ly a resident ial programme at Chrysal is Academy and you’re cr i t ical that the t ra in ing had now been reduced to two days, but I put i t to you that the reason why the Department of Community Safety changed the model of t ra in ing was f irst ly that the t ra in ing which took neighbourhood watch members out of their communit ies for f ive days on a resident ia l programme was not appropriate for every neighbourhood watch. Many people were employed and expressed dissat isfact ion they could not at tend a f ive day t ra in ing programme. The tra in ing that is now done is done on a modular basis and i t is ta i lored to each neighbourhood watch’s specif ic needs so a neighbourhood watch in a more resourced area might need tra in ing on a specif ic issue whereas a neighbourhood watch in Khayel i tsha for example might need tra in ing for a longer period on dif ferent modular issues. What is your comment on that? MR LOONAT: I don’t th ink we have a problem with the two day t r aining. What we are saying is that there should be an ongoing t ra in ing session af ter the two days. We should not be just having the two days and sending the people out into the f ie lds, so we are saying there should be empowering by means of t ra in ing furt her t ra in ing, maybe not immediately but two or three months later. In doing so you are going to be resourcing and tra in ing them in a manner that would be conducive to the areas that they do. We don’t have a problem with the two days. We understand in fact Gideon Maurice, chief d irector and myself had taken th is decis ion somet ime ago because we fe l t that i t was a burden on those that were - most of these members aren’t self -employed. We f ind that in the Western Cape the self -employed members of the community don’t part ic ipate in neighbourhood watches. I t is normal ly the employed members; the downtrodden members of the community that part ic ipate so we do understand. The two days is not a problem. We don’t expect the f ive consecut ive days t ra in ing so wha t we are saying is p lease have tra in ing, repeat t ra in ing with in the f i rst s ix months at least twice thereafter a lso on a weekend and we need to then look at the t ra in ing manual. The tra in ing manual tends to be outdated. I t doesn’t prepare our people for the eventual real i t ies of the f ie ld because i t does not corre late. What is pract ical ly in book form doesn’t apply theoret ical ly in the streets of Manenberg, Athlone and the l ikes of that . MS ADHIKARI: Thank you Mr Loonat. Now in terms of the EPP progr amme one of the areas which the EPP programme al lows CPFs to ident ify are their own specif ic t ra in ing needs and they are able to feed that through the EPP programme in respect of both the neighbourhood watch and the CPF. So would you agree that

that would then be an answer to your part icular concern with regards to ongoing t ra in ing? MR LOONAT: I suppose we could use the EPP in doing exact ly what I have said. I would agree with you. MS ADHIKARI: And Mr Loonat st i l l on the issue of t ra in ing you ra ised a concern around the need for CPFs to be t ra ined in regard to f inancia l compl iance issues. Is that correct? MR LOONAT: I t is yes, i t is extremely important that we tra in people that handled certa in departments of the CPF. I t is unfortunate that we ha ve secretar ies at the moment e lected in posi t ions that don’t even know how to take minutes so i t is important that the department puts aside a certa in amount of funds in empowering those part icular people in that department. MS ADHIKARI: Mr Loonat are you aware that through the EPP programme the department actual ly provides f inancia l t ra in ing to new members of CPFs when they become part of the EPP and before they are able to be fu l ly part ic ipat ing members of the EPP they in fact have to go through a cert a in level of t ra in ing and they have to demonstrate compl iance in respect of the f inancia l report ing requirements as wel l as the other report ing requirements in the EPP and that is part of their induct ion t ra in ing before they become fu l ly funct ional EPP mem bers? MR LOONAT: Mr Maurice is aware of my unhappiness with the in i t ia l - the in i t ia l implementat ion of the EPP was obviously with 32 stat ions and what happens in the process that many of the stat ions that are in need of i t are marginal ised. That was the second reason why I am unhappy and very cr i t ical of the EPP process because i t marginal ise stat ions precincts that were in need of i t and yet in fact most of the stat ions that received i t were not as much in need of i t as those that have been marginal ised. MS ADHIKARI: Mr Loonat are you aware that L ingelethu -West CPF was one of those 32 in i t ia l p i lot projects with the EPP? MR LOONAT: Which stat ion would that be? MS ADHIKARI: L ingelethu-West in Khayel i tsha. MR LOONAT: Yes i t was the in i t ia l f i rst 32. MS ADHIKARI: So Mr Loonat you’ve ra ised concerns with regard to the way that the Department of Community Safety deals with i ts functions and my understanding is what you were saying was that the department is not doing enough in respect of cr ime prevent ion but would you not agree with me that the South Af r ican Pol ice Services are in fact the ent i ty which is supposed to be at the f ront l ine of cr ime f ight ing and cr ime prevent ion? MR LOONAT: Yes, they are. MS ADHIKARI: Would you also agree tha t in terms of Sect ion 206 of the Const i tut ion which you referred to the department or the provinces are responsib le for monitor ing and oversight in respect of pol ic ing services? MR LOONAT: Yes they are. MS ADHIKARI: And so my quest ion then to you is how does that corre late with your cr i t ic ism of the Department of Community Safety not undertaking what I would consider a cr ime f ight ing or cr ime prevent ion funct ion when i ts Const i tut ional mandate is monitor ing and oversight?

MR LOONAT: I th ink i t shou ld not be our pr ime funct ion to be an oversight body because we bel ieve i f we proact ively invest in our communit ies in combating cr ime then we don’t have to be pol ic ing pol ice. We are forced to pol ice the pol ice because we are overburdening the pol ice wit h the cr ime that we experience on a dai ly basis so I bel ieve that the money should be invested proact ively, not react ively. MS ADHIKARI: But Mr Loonat I am sl ight ly confused here because the CPFs are establ ished in terms of the South Afr ican Pol ice Serv ices Act and Sect ion 18 of the South Af r ican Pol ice Services Act sets out qui te c lear ly the funct ions of a Community Pol ic ing Forum and as far as I read Sect ion 18 i t doesn’t corre late with what you are saying CPFs should in fact be doing. CPFs are meant to do monitor ing and oversight broadly and bui ld ing community re lat ionships between the South Af r ican Pol ice Service and the community. MR LOONAT: I t is one of the funct ions that you have just ment ioned. There are many other funct ions, i f you read that properly. I mean i t is obviously to bui ld re lat ionships between the South Af r ican Pol ice Services and the community. Now i f you are going to f ind that the members of the CPF are on a cont inuous basis - the word that the Nat ional Commissioner used, as “ i mpimpis” watching over pol ice during their existence i t is going to bui ld a stra ined re lat ionship so we are obviously going to lose the real purpose of i ts existence when we are going to become a pol ice of the pol ice and that is not exact ly the way of bui ld ing a re lat ionship. A relat ionship should be bui l t on mutual understanding and that can be only done by means of invest ing in a partnership that is going to be conducive for that part icular stat ion. MS ADHIKARI: So you agree that CPFs are impimpis? MR LOONAT: I f you are going to insist that the money should be used in us monitor ing pol ice on a cont inuous basis instead of proact ively part ic ipat ing as communit ies. MS ADHIKARI: Can I take that as a yes Mr Loonat? MR LOONAT: No, I am not saying i t is a yes. I am saying i f you are going to invest on a cont inuous basis and expect ing the CPF to be pol ic ing the pol ice and making that your pr ime expectat ion then obviously we are going to be seen by the South Af r ican Police Serv ice as impimpis which I th ink is not going to bui ld a re lat ionship that is warranted or that is expected of the system. MS ADHIKARI: Mr Loonat i f I can take you to the funct ions of CPFs, are you saying that i t is not a legi t imate funct ion of CPFs to con duct monitor ing and oversight of the pol ice? MR LOONAT: I t is one of the funct ions, not the pr ime funct ion. MS ADHIKARI: The other pr ime funct ion being the bui ld ing of re lat ionships with communit ies. MR LOONAT: That is exact ly the pr ime funct ion. MS ADHIKARI: Now Mr Loonat you have been quite cr i t ical of the EPP i f I read you correct ly but i f I can perhaps refer you to the memorandum of understanding in respect of the Khayel i tsha CPF. Now I would l ike us to get back to deal ing with Khayel i tsha’s speci f ic issue. Do you perhaps have a copy of that memorandum of agreement in f ront of you?

MR LOONAT: No I don’t have one. MS ADHIKARI: Madam Chair I have an addit ional copy. Might I hand i t to Mr Loonat? COMMISSIONER: Is th is the MOU between the Khayel i tsha CPF and the Department of Community Safety? MS ADHIKARI: I t is yes. COMMISSIONER: Yes, you may hand that to h im. I t does already form part of the record but don’t ask me precisely which part of the record. We wi l l f ind i t in a minute. Thank you, Ms Adhikar i . Ms Adhikar i whi le that is being handed out could I just ask for the pu rpose of clar i ty is i t your c l ient ’s case that i t is not only a provincia l department that is responsib le for funding community pol ice forums or is i t your c l ient ’s at t i tude that i t should not be responsib le at a l l ; I mean could I just understand where the se quest ions are coming f rom? MS ADHIKARI: Madam Chair i t is qui te c lear that there is a lacuna in the legis lat ion as to whose responsib i l i ty i t is . At the present moment the Department of Community Safety v iews i t as part of i ts monitor ing and oversig ht funct ions to fund CPFs as wel l as broader monitor ing and oversight funct ions, i t has chosen to fund CPFs. I t doesn’t bel ieve that i t is legis lat ively obl igated to do so. COMMISSIONER: Thank you, I am sure th is is something Dr Lawrence wi l l be covering tomorrow. MS ADHIKARI: Indeed, thank you. Mr Loonat could you page to page 10 of the memorandum of agreement. That is the Annexure A. I t is a business plan for the Khayel i tsha CPF. MR LOONAT: I have got i t . MS ADHIKARI: Now i f you look towards the bottom of that page . . . ( intervent ion) COMMISSIONER: Sorry just a minute, I am sorry, just for the record, were these handed out - these memorandums? MR LOONAT: No it is the f i rst t ime I see that . COMMISSIONER: You’ve got one copy. How many copies did you have Advocate Adhikar i? MS ADHIKARI: My apologies. I do have other copies. COMMISSIONER: Alr ight , I have been informed i t is Bundle 2 3, Fi le 10 I tem 27 . Thanks Ms Dissel . You may have that . MS ADHIKARI: So Mr Loonat i f you look under the “key performance indicators” one of the f i rst ones re lates to the hold ing of community meet ings; another one maintain ing of databases of community organisat ions which are act ive in the area. Do you see that? MR LOONAT: Yes, I know, I do. MS ADHIKARI: And those act ivi t ies are direct ly l inked to Sect ion 18(1)(A) of the South Af r ican Pol ice Services Act, which ta lks about maintain ing and establ ishing partnerships. Do you see that? MR LOONAT: I do. MS ADHIKARI: I f you page over to page 11 st i l l under the same indicator in respect of Sect ion 18(1)(A) i t ta lks about issuing of community newslet ters as wel l as promot ing the SAPS brand. Do you see that?

MR LOONAT: Yes, we do. MS ADHIKARI: Then l inked to Sect ion 18(1)(C) i t ta lks about promot ing cooperat ion, one of the i tems, the key performance areas under that i tem ta lks about at tending meet ings of other stakeholders such as parole boards, NGOs etcetera to encourage cooperat ion. Do you see that? MR LOONAT: I do. MS ADHIKARI: Now there are a number of other s imi lar key performance areas l isted there so Mr Loonat i t would seem to me that your assessment that the EPP programme focuses sole ly on monitor ing and oversight is not correct i f one has regard to the key performance areas. They are fa ir ly evenly spl i t wi th regards to monitor ing and oversight as wel l as community re lat ionship bui ld ing, not so? MR LOONAT: Yes i t is . MS ADHIKARI: I have no further quest ions Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS ADHIKARI COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much Ms Adhikar i . Mr Arendse or is i t Mr Masuku? MR ARENDSE: Sorry Madam Commissioner is i t out turn? COMMISSIONER: Yes, i t is your turn yes. MR ARENDSE: Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE: Messrs Loonat and Abrams . . . ( intervent ion) UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mrs? MR ARENDSE: No, I said Messrs l ike addressing both of them at the same t ime ( laughter). I t seems to be pret ty clear f rom your af f idavi t Mr Loonat that f rom paragraphs 37 through to 42 that is where you ta lk about the establ ishment of provincia l community pol ice boards that CPFs are or is a SAPS responsib i l i ty. In fact you say in your af f idavi t that you had - obviously when you were chair of the board you represented the province at nat ional level , each of the nine provinces have a representat ive on the nat ional board. The national board is headed by an execut ive counci l and the nat ional pol ice Commissioner or her or h is representat ive si ts on the board with the nine provincia l chairpersons and then later on you say at paragraph 40:

“The Provincia l Department of Community Safety and the Nat ional Secretar iat are represented but they have no vot ing powers as they only have oversight powers.”

So I just want to say and put i t on record that i t is pret ty apparent f rom Sect ion 18 and f rom what you say in your own af f idavi t that the CPF in any area is a SAPS responsib i l i ty, not a DOCS responsib i l i ty. MR LOONAT: I wi l l te l l you what have we learnt ; i t is qui te a co ntent ious one. As a lay person . . . ( intervent ion) MR ARENDSE: Okay then you and I must leave that for another t ime. MR LOONAT: Yes, let ’s rather leave i t . MR ARENDSE: Not today. I am represent ing SAPS here and I am taking responsib i l i ty for the community pol ice forums. In fact your evidence and your af f idavi t states clear ly that the stat ion commander or the CPFs are responsib le for developing or devis ing an annual plan for the year and that must done by the

stat ion commander in consultat ion with the CPF? MR LOONAT: Yes, i t is a duty of the stat ion commander to compi le an annual pol ic ing plan. MR ARENDSE: And I would have thought given the current hopeful ly to be resolved soon dif ferences between DOCS and the SAPS especia l ly in the Western Cape that DOCS would have welcomed the opportuni ty to be part of that process to be involved in the development of an annual pol ic ing plan for a part icular area, but they are not . MR LOONAT: As far as I am aware I th ink - I don’t know. I stand for corre ct ion, I th ink the department has one plan of i ts own that they put together af ter get t ing al l , af ter col lect ing al l the informat ion f rom the CPFs in the 149 - now i t wi l l be 150 stat ions af ter the Lentegeur Pol ice Stat ion has been opened but up to last ye ar i t was 149 stat ions so I am sure they compi led - I am aware of them compi l ing their own safety p lan. MR ARENDSE: No I am not ta lk ing about their own plan. I am ta lk ing about the plan that is devised by the SAPS stat ion commander in consultat ion with the CPF according to your Const i tut ion. DOCS is not involved in that process. MR LOONAT: Yes, not that I know of . I don’t th ink they take part in any of those processes. MR ARENDSE: Is your complaint about the expanded part ic ipat ion programme or partnership programme is your complaint that that is used by DOCS as some kind of a spying mechanism? I th ink Ms Adhikar i used the word “ impimpi”. MR LOONAT: Yes that is the word the Nat ional Commissioner used in Parl iament. MR ARENDSE: Now what word do you use? MR LOONAT: I used the same word. I said that in terms of what the Nat ional Commissioner used we must not be seen, i t must not be seen that we are impimpis on behalf of the department because i t st ra ins the re lat ionship between the CPFs and the pol ice. Natural ly we are going to be seen to be the enemy of the pol ice when we do such acts. I mean for us to walk into a pol ice stat ion with the pr ime purpose of f inding out the faul ts of the pol ice i t is obviously going to s tra in the re lat ionship. MR ARENDSE: Uh-huh, but the pr ime purpose of the CPF is to make sure that the pol ice do their work. MR LOONAT: I t is one of the . . . ( intervent ion) MR ARENDSE: Because you represent the community. You want to see that they are combat ing cr ime, and that they are catching the cr iminals. MR LOONAT: There is a process, when you see something that is done wrong at stat ion level there is a process that you could re l ate th is fact to, is I mean obviously you are going to go to a meet ing and ra ise i t at a forum. We have al l these forums where we could ra ise i t , which I ment ioned earl ier, start ing f rom sub -forum r ight up to the provincia l board and which even goes up to the nat ional board which has been contested by the Department of Community Safety but whi lst i t is in existence we can go r ight up to the nat ional board and then nat ional Commissioner to ra ise our concerns. MR ARENDSE: Yes, so I understand you to say i t is not that that is not your ro le or one of your ro les is to p lay that oversight ro le that Ms Adhikar i referred to and

that you must look and observe what they do and what they don’t do but you say there is a part icular process that must be fo l lowed and that process is to ra ise i t in the appropriate forum which is a CPF meet ing with the stat ion commander? MR LOONAT: That is exact ly the way to do i t . MR ARENDSE: But then I don’t know who I am act ing for here today, but Ms Bawa put i t to you that qui te a few minutes were given to her by my cl ients and they don’t seem to ident ify many of the problems that have ar isen here in th is Commission of Inquiry to date. So what does that say that that part icular CPF or those CPFs are fa i l ing in their duty? MR LOONAT: Yes, that is one of the reasons, and the other reason is obviously they are untra ined to do the expected funct ions when elected into the posi t ion. Remember many of these people attend these AGM's and specia l ly cal led general meet ings, not expect ing to be elected. I t happens at the meet ing that your name gets nominated and then you accept the posi t ion so you don’t come there with the sole intent ion of being a fundi or a professional at what you are going to be addressing af ter being elected but in most instances this is exact ly what happens. Now th is is exact ly what happens in the pre -dominant ly areas l ike the Khayel i tsha’s, the Bishop Lavis ’ and the l ist go on, the At lant is ’s where these people are average people. They are not fundies in doing t heir funct ions. They need to be assisted. This is where the department lacks in af fording the opportuni ty to these elected members by means of t ra in ing af ter being elected. MR ARENDSE: Now Mr Loonat you and Mr Abrams I th ink i t is very c lear to everybody here so far th is af ternoon and i t comes through in your af f idavi t you both are very passionate about CPFs and the ro le that they play. You actual ly qui te r ight ly say that the whole idea behind CPFs is to t ransform the pol ice because before 1994 before the SAPS Act of 1995 there was no oversight other than NGOs in the communit ies but here we have a structure designed to actual ly work in partnership with the pol ice and to make sure that that oversight happens. MR LOONAT: Agreed. MR ARENDSE: Now what with due respect, what t ra ining do you need to see that th is part icular stat ion, because surely that is one of the f i rst th ings you are going to do as a CPF, you are going to see how many patro l vans have you got, how many members have you got, how many de tect ives have you got, how many other uni ts have you got. You are going to do al l those kinds of th ings l ike an audit . That you do at the f i rst meet ing l ike how many bats and bal ls and pads do you have before you can play cr icket . Now you do al l those t h ings so what t ra in ing do you need now to see: “Ah today or th is week there are three vans and I was at the meeting last month and now I see four vans. What is wrong? No, the tyre i f f lat is f lat . No, we don’t have any petro l . No, there are no dr ivers .” Or you have now heard because that is why you si t on the CPF, you heard in the community chi ldren are disappearing, people are complain ing that there may be a rapist on the loose - a l l those kinds of th ings. Now what t ra in ing do you needs DOCS or anyb ody to give you to ra ise those issues in a meet ing with the stat ion commander? MR LOONAT: I t is important, I mean unfortunately that over the years, over the 20 years of part ic ipat ion - in fact, sorry, 19 years of part icipat ion that I learnt to bui ld th is energy and th is knowledge in how to go about assessing pol ice, how to p ick up

defaults with in the pol ic ing which I am sure if you speak to many stat ion commanders that have an interact ion with me on a cont inuous basis wi l l te l l you how professional ly I go about doing the ra is ing of my unhappiness being the provincia l chairperson I don’t only ra ise issues where I l ive. I ra ise issues at other stat ions too. I get complaints f rom people outside my residence, my place of residence. I bel ieve that DOCS can add value by t ra in ing these part icular individuals in how to go about f inding faul ts in the pol ic ing. They need to know what the legal i t ies are; what are the expectat ions of the pol ice. I don’t th ink many of our CPF members know that sector vans are sup posed to be patro l l ing the areas and not supposed to be si t t ing at the stat ion. Those that know sector polic ing wi l l know exact ly what I am ta lk ing about. The sector vans are not even supposed to be taking down statements. There is a Vispol van that is given that part icular ro le where the minute a sector van is being informed of a cr ime that takes place in a sector they need to cal l in the Vispol van to come and take the statement. He does not take the statement, but unfortunately a lot of the CPF chair persons don’t know these th ings, but I would pick i t up immediately i f I f ind a sector van parked of f at a residence I would knock on the door and say why. MR ARENDSE: But Mr Loonat okay, we can understand that , but one of the th ings members of the CPF would know is there is a lot of burglar ies; there is a lot of robberies. There are maybe too many murders. There are a host of cr imes being commit ted in the neighbourhood because you said one of the bodies that s i t on the CPFs when you were asked that quest ion would be neighbourhood watch persons. Now surely when you ra ise that at the meet ing and you say to the stat ion commander what are we doing about that and now your commonsense wi l l a lso te l l you but people say they phone but they are taking too long to come out or people say they phone and no-one is answering the phone; a whole host of th ings that ar ise f rom these complaints which you say process demands must be ra ised in the CPF meet ing. Do these th ings happen or don’t they happen? MR LOONAT: In most instances i t does happen but due to lack of knowledge l ike I ment ioned earl ier there are some stat ions that just fal l on the wayside with that where the funct ions aren’t exact ly in the manner you have ment ioned. MR ARENDSE: Now let ’s ta lk about the period when you the chairperson of the provincia l board because we heard in your exchange with Ms Bawa how th is th ing works f rom the bottom up and on paper i t looks great and at the province you sort of pul l everyth ing together and you can perhaps - the whole idea is a lso to detect where certa in cr imes are commit ted, which communit ies are under pressure and that k ind of th ing, isn’ t i t . You discussed these th ings. Now we have heard the evidence so far here in Khayel i tsha the rapes, the murders, ser ia l rap ists, the way women and chi ldren are being t reated, a whole host of horr ib le cr imes. One doesn’t see in your af f idavi t that th is has ever been escalated up to that level or any level where th is became a pr ior i ty d iscussion, whether i t is Khayel i tsha, whether i t is Manenberg, Heideveld, any one of our - Hanover Park, Langa, Nyanga, any one of our poor d isadvantaged areas. MR LOONAT: Advocate Arendse that was one of our shortcomings as the Western Cape community pol ice board I need to admit at th is forum that in the two years that I was the chairperson of the board there were many shortcomings with in the

organisat ion of which one of i t was the tota l neglect of stat ions and CPFs f rom stat ions l ike Khayel i tsha where we could have picked up the unfortunate c ircumstances that they f ind themselves in much quicker than the South Af r ican Pol ice Service but we did not , because we were too busy engaging in issues that weren’t the prerequisi tes of the forum i tself . MR ARENDSE: Yes, I mean I would have thought that one of the th ings that would come to your ears f i rst would be th ings that happened in the community. You read the newspapers, you l isten to the radio. You watch the TV. Now the Socia l Just ice Coal i t ion or one of these other groupings, they have a prote st march or you hear they are handing over a memorandum. What is your react ion to that as a CPF member? MR LOONAT: I am glad you use that example. I wi l l te l l you precisely what I d id . . . ( intervent ion) MR ARENDSE: I am not part icular ly glad . . . ( intervention) MR LOONAT: No-no i t is good we are using that example. I wi l l te l l you what I d id. The minute i t was ra ised at the board meet ing by Malusi who was the chairperson at the t ime we immediately inst i tuted three members to come to th is area and to have a meet ing with the complainants. At that t ime there wasn’t the establ ishment of the Commission so before the establishment of the Commission we had already cal led for the meet ing - where was i t , at the stat ion, at the cluster commander’s of f ices , of which the four complainants were invi ted and two only came to the meet ing. The other two for some reason or the other . . . ( intervent ion) MR ARENDSE: Is that the meet ing that was organised by Colonel W iese? MR LOONAT: That is the meet ing. MR ARENDSE: That is the meet ing? MR LOONAT: Yes. MR ARENDSE: But we also know - I don’t know about you Mr Abrams or both of you, you were also opposed to th is Commission being establ ished? MR LOONAT: At the t ime? MR ARENDSE: Yes. MR ABRAMS: I think at the t ime Advocate the impression that was gauged at that t ime that i t was more pol i t ical ly mot ivated so on that specif ics we were against i t . I t was not going to be good to tape the way forward for the community of Khayel i tsha if we are going to have to resolve these issues by having the pol i t ical part ies f ight ing amongst themselves for power with in Khayel i tsha so therefore at that stage because of the informat ion gathered i t was more pol i t ical ly dr iven than transforming the si tuat ion with re gards to get t ing to the root of the evi l . MR ARENDSE: Did you see a copy of the complaints? MR ABRAMS: No. MR ARENDSE: Why didn’ t you ask for a copy of the complaint and accept someone te l l ing you that th is is pol i t ical ly mot ivated? MR ABRAMS: We raised the quest ion. We requested that. I t was never forthcoming. We engaged. We tr ied to engage meet ings with the cluster commander at the t ime. No meet ings were forthcoming. We engaged thereafter with many other, with the CPFs of Khayel i tsha to ensure that there isn’ t any

mispercept ion with in the CPFs. We even part ic ipated with in a VPUU workshop with CPFs to ensure that they have got an understanding of what is happening with in the area and therefore a lot of other processes also mater ia l ised to ensure funct ional i ty of CPFs. MR ARENDSE: But how do you ensure funct ional i ty and processes and al l those nice words when you did not even look at the complaint to see what process you must embark upon, how you should go about embarking on i t and what to decide with the other CPFs? What were you going to do? MR ABRAMS: Respectfu l ly s ir we cal led for the meet ing. We requested the document. I t wasn’t forthcoming. MR ARENDSE: Now I am not going to go there, but I just want to put i t on record Madam Commissioner that Advocate Masuku consulted with both witnesses in advance of the court case and obtained af f idavi ts f rom them and they had sight of the complaints because that is what the court case was about. I t was about the SJC complaints and their subsequent supplementary complaints and about vigi lant ism and obviously they were consulted about their ro le as CPFs but I suppose i t is no longer re levant or germane to . . . ( intervent ion) COMMISSIONER: I th ink i t is only fair to the witnesses. MR LOONAT: Yes, i t is a point of c lar i ty. COMMISSIONER: To give them the opportuni ty to respond to that, which is part icular ly that Advocate Masuku consulted with the two of you in advance of the High Court case, f i rst ly, and secondly that at that stage you we re given an opportuni ty to see the complaints. MR LOONAT: I just need a point of c lar i ty, Advocate Arendse did you say that I s igned an af f idavi t? MR ARENDSE: No I d id not say that you signed an af f idavi t , in fact we have an unsigned af f idavi t of you rs here but there were other reasons why we decided not to put in your af f idavi t . MR LOONAT: An unsigned af f idavi t would not necessari ly mean i t is my af f idavi t . I t wasn’t s igned by me. MR ARENDSE: Wel l the point that I was making - No-no-no there is no signed af f idavi t . . . ( intervent ion) MR LOONAT: Just remember I had an informal d iscussion. I t was not a formal meet ing that I had with Advocate Masuku. I t was an informal meet ing. MS BAWA: May I come in here and for the sake of t ransparency al so go on record and say that both Mr Loonat and Mr Abrams was approached by the Commission pr ior to the High Court proceedings and simi lar ly consulted with us. Mr Loonat and Mr Abrams pr ior to consult ing with you had gone to great lengths to faci l i tate us being able to communicate with re levant people in Khayel i tsha on condit ion that i t wasn’t going to become a pol i t ical tool to be wielded against the people of Khayel i tsha so they were prepared to informal ly assist us as evidence leaders i f we were act ing in the interest of the people of Khayel i tsha and I undertook that I would do so on that basis and I th ink that i t is only fair in l ight of th is exchange that I p lace that on record. COMMISSIONER: I th ink i t might be useful as wel l at th is stage Ms Bawa whi le we are ta lk ing about the re lat ionship between the Commission and the CPFs i f you

could just account as to what the Commission did in re lat ion to the three Khayel i tsha CPFs. MS BAWA: Through Mr Loonat we had met with the cluster commander at the t ime where we faci l i tated in doing an in loco inspect ion in Khayel i tsha. Mr Loonat arranged for us to meet with a l l CPF bodies in Khayel i tsha and in L ingelethu -West, Harare and the one at Si te B. The posi t ion adopted by the CPFs was that there was a pol i t ical instruct ion that had come down that they were not to cooperate with the Commission. Mr Loonat had faci l i tated the meet ing and had lef t i t up to the respect ive CPFs to determine whether they were prepared to give evidence before the Commission. On al l three occasions both myself , Mr Sidaki , Advocate Sidaki and I th ink Ms Dissel was with for one of the meet ings, I th ink, the Lingelethu -West one that got out of hand, yes, with the CPFs, so the ro le that he - at that stage he was st i l l chairperson of the board. He had gone to great lengths to ensure that the re levant representat ives of the var ious CPFs in Khayel i tsha met with us as evidence leaders so that we could expla in to them what the mandate of the Commission was. They took a decis ion that they we re not prepared to assist us with our processes or to be part of the Commission on the basis of a pol i t ical instruct ion which had been given to them. COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Do you have any further quest ions Mr Arendse? MR ARENDSE: I do madam Chair . I th ink the point that I was making was that both witnesses had sight of the complaints when Advocate Masuku consulted with them. That was the point of the exercise. The other point I must put on record, we know f rom the .. . ( intervent ion) COMMISSIONER: Perhaps just before you f in ish that , let ’s just put that to the two witnesses, I mean they are ent i t led . . . ( intervent ion) MR LOONAT: Yes, can we just on a point of c lar i ty. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR LOONAT: Is Advocate Arendse saying - you see we need to know, is he saying that we had the document? COMMISSIONER: That you had the . . . ( intervent ion) MR LOONAT: We had knowledge of i t . I t was read out to us, but we did not have the document so I want to know i f he is asking “d id you have the document i tself?” COMMISSIONER: Mr Arendse could you pert inent ly indicate what you are assert ing and perhaps give the witnesses an opportuni ty to admit or deny that . MR ARENDSE: Wel l the point is Mr Loonat your f i rst answer was tha t you did not have sight of the complaints. MR LOONAT: I d id not have sight of the document. I had knowledge of the contents of i t . MR ARENDSE: The contents, so that is a d if ferent answer. Yes, so if you said: “ I did not see the document but I am aware of the complaints because i t was read out to me”, and your answer was no, you did not see the complaints. MR LOONAT: I d id not see i t . I heard i t . MR ARENDSE: I put i t to you that Advocate Masuku had consulted with you and that the complaints were ra ised with you. MR LOONAT: Yes . . . ( intervent ion) MR ARENDSE: Now I wasn’t there when he consulted, whether he now showed i t

to you, but typical ly lawyers would say: “Did you see th is document? We read it out to you”, and you go through the document. MR LOONAT: Okay just on the point of c lar i ty Commissioner we would l ike Advocate Arendse to know that we knew of the contents of the document but d id not have sight of i t . So maybe that would c lear the air. Okay just on the point of c lar i ty Commissioner we would l ike Advocate Arendse to know that we knew of the contents of the document but d id not have sight of i t . So maybe that would c lear the air . COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. So we can record that you knew of the content of the complaints that had led to the establ ishment of the Commission but you did not have a copy of them and you did not have sight of them. Is that - does that meet your purposes Mr Arendse? MR ARENDSE: That is f ine, that is f ine with me, because then i t takes me back a few quest ions, because I asked you, you now knew about these complaints, you knew about the contents of i t . What d id you do about i t? MR LOONAT: I cal led up that meet ing that you just ment ioned by Colonel W iese; that was the meet ing on my recommendat ion that was cal led up. MR ARENDSE: Now you also know i f you were aware of the content of the complaint that th is was just not a new complaint . I t went back. The or iginal e ight complaints go back to 2006, 2004, 2008. You are involved in the CPFs. You are involved in the structure. MR LOONAT: Advocate Arendse I was not involved at that t ime in the Western Cape. I am f rom Johannesburg or iginal ly. MR ARENDSE: You came to Lansdowne in 2005. MR LOONAT: In 2006. MR ARENDSE: So even if i t is 2006 these complaints go back . . . ( intervent ion) MR LOONAT: But I don’t deal, when you are at Lansdowne you don’t deal with issues outside your precinct . Remember when you are on the CPF you only deal with issues that at tr ibutes to the area you represent, which was Lansdowne. MR ARENDSE: When you were elected to the provincial board . . . ( intervent ion) MR LOONAT: I only came onto the provincia l board in 2011. MR ARENDSE: 2011 so okay at 2011 . . . ( intervent ion) MR LOONAT: And I was a PRO at that t ime. COMMISSIONER: Mr Arendse I just want to remind you about the t icking clock here. I am not sure how much more you have gone, but I am anxious. We have yet another witness to deal with th is af ternoon. MR ARENDSE: Madam Commissioner we are also si t t ing with two witnesses; we are also t rying to deal with two witnesses. I should not be long, but then subsequent ly you also became the chairperson of the Nyanga - that is in 2009? MR LOONAT: That ’s i t . MR ARENDSE: 2007? 2009? MR LOONAT: 2009. MR ARENDSE: 2009. Are you test i fying under oath that in 2009 you were not aware of the vigi lante k i l l ings even in the Nyanga area? Nyanga we know is cal led the murder capita l of South Af r ica. MR LOONAT: There could have been one of two that I can’t recal l at th is very

moment. MR ARENDSE: So you never d iscussed anything l ike vigi lante k i l l ings at your CPF meet ings or subsequent ly when you were the chair of the board in 2011? MR LOONAT: We treated each murder as a murder and not - when i t came to vigi lante k i l l ings, mob ki l l ings were mob ki l l ings, but i f you can look at the period that I was the chairperson of the Nyanga cluster I cannot recal l any of those murders taking place in that durat ion and I am sure if you do your homework you wi l l f ind that I wasn’t a chairperson during that per iod that any of those murders took place in Nyanga. MR ARENDSE: I have got . . . ( intervent ion) MR LOONAT: So I d id not have to deal with i t . MR ARENDSE: But my quest ion is when you were chair of the board in 2011 and unt i l you parted ways in 2013 was an i tem cal led vigi lante murders or k i l l ings never d iscussed with . . . ( intervent ion) MR LOONAT: We had an extensive discussion at a board meet ing when General Jaf ta, Major General Jaf ta ra ised i t wi th us and we then assisted the t roubled areas. Khayel i tsha was one of them. Khayel i tsha - there were one or two areas that was; Delf t was the other area. MR ARENDSE: So th is was ra ised you say in 2011 maybe you c an recal l which month or which meet ing and maybe we can get the minute of that meet ing, but i t was actual ly ra ised by General Jaf ta. MR LOONAT: Ja, not th is part icular; in general , she spoke about vigi lant ism in general , not Khayel i tsha in part icular. MR ARENDSE: Yes. No but your answer af ter that was then you specif ical ly came out here to assist and that was my next quest ion: to assist with what here in Khayel i tsha? MR LOONAT: To assist with the ra is ing of the issue by the cluster chairperson at the meet ing on the let ters that were sent to the cluster by the four complainants. That is when I came, we act ively as the board decided to come in to mobi l ise the said members of the neighbourhood watches and the CPFs. MR ARENDSE: So you were aware certa in ly of at least four complaints even before your consultat ion with my col league? That is what you are saying? MR LOONAT: I wi l l have to go back to that and see the dates. MR ARENDSE: No-no-no that is what you said, you spoke about the four complaints. MR LOONAT: No-no I wi l l have to see your col league had seen me af ter I was in formed or before. I don’t recal l at th is very moment. I don’t have diar ies here to say when I met your col league nor do I remember when those meet ings took place or when those issues were ra ised with us. MR ARENDSE: Wel l i t would be even worse i f that meet ing took place af ter the 28 t h November 2011 complaints were f i led by the SJC. MR LOONAT: None of th is happened in 2011. Most of these incidents and these meet ings took place in 2012; def in i te ly nothing in 2011. Even the meet ing with your col league was def in i te ly not in 2011. I t could have been in the lat ter part of 2012. MR ARENDSE: Mr Loonat why was there never any engagement with NGOs l ike

Social Just ice Coal i t ion or other NGOs when you were chairperson of the cluster Board? MR LOONAT: I t is the dut ies and the funct ions of the cluster to be engaging with the organisat ions. We only come in in the case of conf l ict and we are there to assist them and guide them in resolving the issues ra ised by the organisat ions or the ent i t ies, businesses of the local areas. MR ARENDSE: But again Mr Loonat you read the newspapers, you l isten to the radio, you watch the TV. You see there are protests. There are memora ndums. There are marches to the provincia l bui ld ing whether i t is the Pol ice Commissioner or to the Premier and people are protest ing about cr ime. Are you saying that as chairperson of the provincia l c luster Board you close your eyes and your ears to that? MR LOONAT: No it is ra ised; we actual ly ask . . . ( intervent ion) MR ARENDSE: Now i t is ra ised? MR LOONAT: No-no-no we asked the chairpersons of the area. You see what happens Advocate Arendse is at a board meet ing the pol ice give their input. W hen they give their report at a meet ing then we raise the issues. They would say: “These are the issues that happened.” I f there is chi ld abuse taking place in a certa in area, General Jaf ta at the t ime would then ra ise i t wi th us, and we would then inst ruct the chairperson of that c luster to mobi l ise the community in awareness campaigns so that is our duty, we guide. We do not go about doing the funct ions of that , I wouldn’ t be act ing as a c luster chairperson in a c luster when I do have al l fa i th - in good fa i th I mean I have respect for the person that runs the cluster. MR ARENDSE: Mr Loonat your whole approach is now contradictory. You say to Ms Adhikar i you need money to DOCS and f rom the pol ice and everybody so that you can be proact ive and not reactive. Now to be proact ive is to come into a meet ing. When you come into a soccer meet ing or a cr icket meet ing you say: “ I read about th is, I heard about.. . ” you don’t go to the Const i tut ion. You discuss i t , because i t concerns you. Why were these th ings not d iscussed when you read about i t ; when you heard about i t , when you saw i t on TV? MR LOONAT: I don’t understand Advocate Arendse. I have just to ld you the minute I heard i t we cal led a meet ing. Does that not te l l you that I have done something about i t? MR ARENDSE: But I don’t agree . . . ( intervent ion) MR LOONAT: Just remember th is is not my paying work. I mean I have got a family to feed. I have got a family to look af ter. I have to put bread and butter on my table. This is not my only work. This is my passion. I t is my contr ibut ion to the community and my fe l low-ci t izens in th is province. MR ARENDSE: No we are . . . ( intervent ion) MR LOONAT: So i t is not my pr ime that I work on this on a dai ly basis, when I have the opportunity I wi l l deal with the issues that I can. MR ARENDSE: We appreciate what you do, bel ieve me, people who of fer their t ime and their energy sel f lessly for the communi ty, but at the end of the day when you commit to doing th is job i t is your statutory duty to do that . MR LOONAT: I think I have done that . That is why I am on the wayside

. . . ( intervent ion) MR ARENDSE: I t is not a favour that you are doing anybody! Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE COMMISSIONER: Thank you Mr Arendse. Any re -examinat ion, Ms Bawa? MS BAWA: I have one quest ion. RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BAWA: Mr Loonat the Commission had been given a report which had been prepared by the cluster commander. The document is headed “Bundu Court” . I d id not show i t to you but they detai l 78 cases of vigi lant ism which the cluster commander had compi led a report on. Did she ever ra ise th is report wi th you or has i t been ra ised with the board during the t ime of your of f ice? MR LOONAT: In fact you have just now - never ever, but there is something that you have ra ised that I need to ment ion for the record. You used the term “bundu court” and that is exact ly the term used at the t ime when we dealt wi th this matter. Am I r ight , col league? We treated i t as a bundu ki l l ing and not as a vig i lante k i l l ing. MS BAWA: My second quest ion to you is dur ing 2012 the Nat ional Commissioner requested General Tshabalala to do a report on the three pre cincts in Khayel i tsha deal ing with inef f ic iencies and the breakdown in the community. Are you aware of th is report? MR LOONAT: Was that af ter h is vis i t to th is c luster? MS BAWA: Yes. MR LOONAT: We don’t know about the report but we know of h is vi si t to the cluster. MS BAWA: Was i t ever provided to you as chairperson of the provincia l board . . . ( intervent ion) MR LOONAT: Never, never. MS BAWA: Was i t compi led in consultat ion with you? MR LOONAT: No. MS BAWA: Okay. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS BAWA COMMISSIONER: Thank you. MR PIKOLI: Thank you Mr Loonat and Mr Abrams. I just want to refer you to Sect ion 18 of the SAPS Act, the six out l ined objects of the community pol ice forums and the board. I can ask you on anyone o f the six, I am going to just choose one, 18(1)(e): “On improving the t ransparency in the service and accountabi l i ty between the community”, how have you carr ied out th is funct ion? MR ABRAMS: In order to have transparency and accountabi l i ty and to bui l d that br idge to get there i t is important that the inst i tut ion the SAPS Act in i tsel f a l lows the independence of the organisat ion which is now cal led a community pol ic ing board. The independence of these organisat ions if we do an invest igation needs thorough invest igat ion because there isn’ t independence. We are st i l l held, we are not a l lowed, so there needs to be some form to a l low the community to be independent in view of the part ic ipation to make a contr ibut ion of t ransformat ion with in the system which we have now an af fordabi l i ty which we never had to bui ld a re lat ionship between the South Af r ican Pol ice Service and the community of

South Af r ica. MR LOONAT: Commissioner just adding to what my col league is saying i t is important that we real ise tha t whi lst there is an absence of us being independent, what happens is that we cannot serve our communit ies in the manner expected of us as per the document that you have just ment ioned so we need to get our independence. I have in fact requested in my inp ut that I was going to give today that the Nat ional Minister needs to take into considerat ion that we cannot a l low the South Af r ican Police Service to establ ish th is noble organisat ion because what happens is in most instances you wi l l f ind that stat ion co mmanders would go about performing their dut ies in establ ishing CPFs very deviously for one simple reason that they put in of f ice members of the community that they could contro l and in doing so th is is exact ly what happens that i t makes us inef fect ive and noncompl iant as per the expectat ions of the Const i tut ion and the act of the Pol ice Act so i t is important that we become independent f rom the day that we get establ ished. Unfortunately at the moment everyth ing that we do is in the hands of the Provincia l Commissioner and the Nat ional Commissioner and that has to come to an end because then we are as good as being police of f icers because we are being contro l led by those that we are purportedly supposed to be having an oversight over. COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much Mr Loonat. Thank you very much Mr Abrams. We are very gratefu l to you for the t ime and for the work that you have performed in re lat ion to community pol ice forums. There is no doubt that the system of community pol ice forums as the SAPS A ct contemplates requires part ic ipat ion of members of the community on a voluntary basis which as a form of publ ic service enriches the community more broadly but there is obviously an ongoing chal lenge to work out precisely what the ro le is. I th ink at th at stage you may stand down and with our thanks. WITNESSES EXCUSED