Is It Really The Converter

2011

Seminar

Is It ReallyThe Converter ?

By

Mike SouzaATRA Technical Advisor

Torque Converter Rebuilders Association

GM 4T45E Engine Lugging Down.

TCRA

2011 Seminar

Engine lugging, Erratic Transmission operation may be caused by a Camshaft Position Actuator (CMP) and codes P0013 or P0014 Camshaft Position (CMP) Actuator solenoid control circuit. These codes cause the TCM to go into torque management mode.

Note: CMP Actuator Solenoid Changes The Timing Of The Cam Shaft For Fuel Delivery & Emissions

Camshaft Position Actuator

© 2011 ATRA. All Rights Reserved.

1

2002 Monte Carlo a 3.4L engine high line at start up afterrebuild. No codes present and the vehicle did not arrive with this symptom. Whenmonitoring the amperage to the EPC solenoid it was being commanded low .4amps. This explained the reason for the high line pressure.

After checking all possible causes by any engine load sensor. The question came upof “could the wrong stall speed converter cause this”? The tech noticed a higherthan normal stall speed when placed into gear. The original converter was checkedagainst the replacement rebuild and there was a difference. There are 4 differentconverter stall speeds for the late 4T65E transmission and only one is identified bymake and model shown in the chart below.

with and a complaint of

GM 4T65E High Line Pressure At Start Up.

TCRA

2011 Seminar


2

Note: all 4 converters have the same splinecount.

outside diameter, pilot diameter, bolt pad, and

Code Stall Speed Approx. Vehicles

JSFM 1700-1900 1991-02 Aurora, Bonneville, Royale, Intrigue,LeSabre, Park Ave, Reatta, Regency, Roadmaster,Riviera.

JTFM 1900-2100 1997-04 Century, Grand Prix,

JZFM 2200-2400 1990-07Impala, Lumina, Malibu, Monte

Carlo, Regal, Rendezvous,

JXFM 2400-2600 2001-02 Aurora, Bravada, Delta 88, Intrigue, Silhouette.

Delta 88,

Regal.

Century, Bonneville, Grand Am, Grand PrixSC, LeSabre, Montana,

Uplander.

TCC surge after vehicle has been driven a long distance and the transmission becomes hot enough. This complaint may be caused by a weak Pressure Control Solenoid (PCS). There may be no codes associated with this symptom.

After 2003 there is new Bosch type PCS, and one cannot be installed in place of the other. The solenoid connector figuration is the same. Care should be taken to use the correct solenoid application.

GM 4T65E TCC Surge After Long Road Test.

TCRA

2011 Seminar

Note:if the Bosch solenoid is replaced with a Delphi solenoid; soft flared shifts, and poor line rise will occur.

If a Delphi solenoid is used in place of the Bosch solenoid; firm harsh shifts and high line pressure will occur.

2000 - 02Delphi

#10478146

2003Bosch

#242258825


3

P0741, Excessive TCC Slip, No TCC Apply before or after overhaul. Orifice 9b is too small, not allowing enough TCC Signal-PWM oil to the TCC Regulator Apply Valve. Enlarge orifice 9b with .020” to .030”. This same symptom may appear after overhaul if debris restricts orifice 9b.

9b

GM 4T65E Excessive TCC Slip.

TCRA

2011 Seminar

Enlarge orifice 9b with .020" to no more than .030" drill


4

The torque signal regulator valve was updated due to sticking concerns. This update is a material update due to expansions and contractions in cold weather. This updated valve effects 2004 and up model years.

GM 4T65E P0741 TCC Performance/Stuck Off

TCRA

2011 Seminar

Torque Signal Regulator Valve


5

Perceived TCC ProblemIntermittent Chuggle or Fishbite on Light Acceleration or at Highway Speeds with No Trouble Codes (DTCs)

Models:1995-1999 Buick Riviera

1995-2004 Buick Regal

1995-2005 Buick LeSabre, Park Avenue

1997-2005 Buick Century

1995-2001 Chevrolet Lumina

1995-2005 Chevrolet Camaro

1995-2005 Chevrolet Monte Carlo

2000-2005 Chevrolet Impala

1995-1997 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme, Ninety Eight

1995-1999 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight

1998-2002 Oldsmobile Intrigue

1995-2002 Pontiac Firebird

1995-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix

1995-2005 Pontiac Bonneville

(3800 V6 Engine “VIN K – RPO L36”)

Customer Complaint:

Customer may comment on an intermittent chuggle of fshbite on light acceleration or at steady-state highway speeds (typically 80-105 km/h [50-65 mph] with no PCM DTCs set). This

condition may lead the technician to suspect the TCC circuit or Torque Converter.

Cause:This condition may be caused by intermittent operation of the Throttle Position (TPS) Sensor.

Diagnosis:The hand held scan tool is not fast enough to consistently detect this condition during a snapshot. It is recommended to use a DVOM set to the min/max recording mode. Connect the DVOM at the TPS connector (positive lead to TPS feedback signal in and negative lead to TPS ground pin). Duplicate this condition by driving the vehicle. If the voltage dropout (less than 0.45V) is recorded

on the DVOM, replace the TPS sensor and re-evaluate the vehicle before continuing with otherdrivability or transmission diagnosis.

TPS Part Number: 24504798

GM 4T65E Perceived TCC Problem.

TCRA

2011 Seminar


6

2006 – 2007 Buick Allure, La Crosse, Lucerne, Rendezvous, Terraza

2006 – 2007 Chevrolet Impala, Malibu SS, Malibu Maxx SS, Monte Carlo, Uplander

2006 – 2007 Pontiac Grand Prix, G6 GTP, Montana SV6

2006 – 2007 Saturn Relay

A harsh shift or the Service Engine Soon light may be illuminated with codes P0742, P2761, P2764.

This may be caused by a damaged internal solenoid wiring harness. The Tan wire that is used for

the Torque Converter may be incorrectly routed around a metal retaining clip causing it to chafe -

the wiring.

Part # 24229643 Internal Wiring Harness

DTC P0742 and P2761 or P2764 After Overhaul

GM 4T65E DTC’s After Overhaul.

TCRA

2011 Seminar

P0742: TCC System Stuck OnP2761: TCC Pressure Control Solenoid P2764: TCC Pressure Control Solenoid Control Circuit Low Voltage


7

TCRA

2011 Seminar

LCT 1000 Lack Of Stall Speed In 4WD Range

Many technicians have commented regarding the operation of the Allison transmission on both the 6.6L Dura Max diesel and the 8.1L gas engine applications.

It has been noted that the torque converter stall speed is much lower when the transmission is in reverse range and the transfer case is in 4wd range. It is also common to see stall speed between 1000-1300 rpm while in reverse and 4wd range.

The 6.6L and 8.1L applications can supply too much torque to the front drive axle due to the transmission planetary torque multiplication available in reverse range. This excessive torque could cause the front axle to fail.

No repair should be attempted, as the vehicle is operating as designed. The 8.1L and 6.6L applications "torque manage" the engine torque output when the transmission is in reverse while in 4wd. This is accomplished by controlling the spark timing and or fuel delivery systems.

Allison LCT 1000


8

TCRA

2011 Seminar

LCT 1000 No Move Condition

A GM truck is towed to the shop with a no move condition and the PRNDL lights flashing.

When scanned with a capable scan tool there are no codes present and all scan tool data is normal.

Upon disassembly and inspection the sump is clean and there are no problems found.

This condition may be caused by a restricted solenoid feed filter located in the shift valve body.

Shift Valve Body

Solenoid Feed Filter


9

TCRA

2011 Seminar

LCT 1000 P0741 and/or P0218

C/K 2500 and 3500 TrucksSome customers may comment regarding the service engine soon lamp being on intermittently. In some instances the TCM will have a P0741 (TCC Stuck Off) and/or a P0218 (Transmission Fluid Over Temperature) set in memory. It is likely that the condition leading to the DTC’s will not be able to be duplicated unless the vehicle is put under a heavy load, such as towing a trailer up a steep incline at highway speeds. The DTC’s will set if the following conditions are met.

Good

Not Good

Air Check

Look ForLeaks Here


10

TCRA

2011 Seminar

4L30E Multiple Tech Call Complaints

1998 Cadillac Catera with a TCC slip code P0740. Lockup felt fine, caused by wrong converter stall speed (too high).

1997 BMW setting code P0733 (3rd gear ratio) at a steady 3500 RPM. Replaced converter with a lower stall speed.

Isuzu Trooper with no lockup setting code P1870 (transmission component slipping). Transmission shifted into lockup but would run away under a load. The valve body gasket were swapped.

Isuzu Trooper with a complaint of a groaning or moaning noise going down the drive shaft during lockup apply. A ground wire was added from the frame to the Overdrive Housing. The tech got the idea to try this after exhausting all other options. The information in the ATRA 2000 seminar book about an updated ground wire from the O/D housing to the main case gave him the food for thought (shown on next page).

“Is it the Trans or the Converter”

“Trans or Converter”


11

TCRA

2011 Seminar

4L30E Multiple Tech Call Complaints


TCRA

2011 Seminar

4L30E Multiple Tech Call Complaints continued


Early units used a spadeconnector to provide solenoid ground. These units often suffered from bad grounds.

Isuzu offers a harnessthat provides a morepositive ground for thesolenoids.

Note:This ground wire update was an Isuzu correction for a no lockup condition with a code P1860. ATRA bulletin 468 (part # 8-96041-331-0).


12

TCRA

2011 Seminar

41TE (A604) TCC Chatter Or Cycle

Lock-up Control System Changes / Air Conditioner Compressor Engagement Complaints

In 1995, the lock-up control system was changed so that partial lock-up, or Electronically Modulated Converter Clutch (EMCC) apply would no longer occur under any conditions. This was done to eliminate TCC chatter. However, with lock-up now fully engaged (instead of being allowed to slip a small amount), the A/C compressor could be felt engaging and disengaging with a noticeable thump feel throughout the vehicle whenever the A/C was operating.

To correct this problem, all 1996 model controllers have been reprogrammed to allow EMCC (partial torque converter slip) to occur just before the A/C compressor is either engaged or released. This allows the TCC to slip through the A/C compressor engagement or release, then fully re-engage after compressor engage or release is complete. The torque converter therefore absorbs the thump of compressor engagement or release. If the TCM detects a rapid fluctuation of turbine speed during EMCC operation, it interprets this as TCC slip: DTC 73 is set, and partial slip, or EMCC operations are not allowed for the following 20 lock-up engagement cycles. After 20 cycles have completed, EMCC will once again be allowed.

If any part of a repair or service to a 1996 41TE or 42LE causes the torque converter to subsequently chatter during partial slip (EMCC) it will be detected and EMCC will be canceled. This will most likely cause a complaint of the A/C compressor engagement and disengagement being much more noticeable since the transmission work had been done. If a complaint of noticeable A/C operations occurs after transmission work is performed, with a DTC 73 in memory, it should be treated like a TCC chatter problem. Cooler flow should be checked, Chrysler 7176 ATF should be used, and all other steps necessary to diagnose TCC chatter should be performed.

A low A/C charge can also cause the TCC to cycle in and out of lockup. A/C clutch cycling causing the TPS to fluctuate.

EMCCEnabled

A/C Comp.Engaged

EMCCDisabled

EMCCEnabled

EMCCDisabled

A/C Comp.Disengaged

Time at appropriate speed for lock up......


13

Some Dodge pickups and vans may set code P0740. This can be caused by worn converter, valve body, solenoids or low line pressure. To increase line pressure in 4th gear, increase the boost valve plate hole (up to .069”) see figure below.

Another problem could be a broken Boost Valve Spring Retainer.

TCRA

2011 Seminar

42/46/47RE TCC Slip Code P0740

Boost ValvePlate Hole

Boost Valve Spring Retainer

Breaks


14

TCRA

2011 Seminar

Jeep RE Units No TCC Command

Some 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee vehicles with a 4.0L engine with a complaint of no TCC apply. The technicians first thought is a bad converter until the scan tool data reveals no command for lockup.

The problem is some of these vehicles were not programmed to command TCC apply. There is a flash available for this concern. TSB 18-028-04 will reprogram the TCM to command lockup. The only model affected is the 2004 (WJ) Grand Cherokee (Domestic Market Only) with a 4.0L engine.

2004 Grand Cherokee

The torque converter lock-up feature is allowed to occur once the 42RE transmission has engaged 4th gear at speeds greater than approximately 77 km/h (48 mph), or if overdrive is turned off when 3rd gear is engaged at speeds greater than approximately 47 km/h (29 mph).

The difference in engine speed when the torque converter lock-up feature is enabled or disabled may be approximately 100 - 300 RPM. An enabled torque converter feature may improve vehicle fuel economy dependent upon how the vehicle is operated.

4.0L Engine


15

TCRA

2011 Seminar

545RFE TCC Shutter After Rebuild

After overhaul on a 2006 or later Dodge truck with a Multi Displacement 5.7L Hemi engine may have a complaint of TCC shudder during lockup apply.

This may be caused by installing the wrong converter. There are three converters for the 545RFE transmission.

1: 3.7L & 4.7L Medium Stall smooth clutch lining outer style damper springs 2: 5.7L Hemi Low Stall grooved lining clutch outer style damper springs 3: 5.7L Hemi MD Low Stall grooved clutch lining inner style damper springs

The Multi Displacement engine is designed to drop from 8 cylinders down to 4 cylinders in approximately 40 milliseconds during highway driving with no load.

Some rebuilder’s use either damper style with the grooved clutch lining on either 5.7L Hemi type engine with the correct stall. The smooth clutch lining will cause a shudder during part lockup (shown on next page).

Medium Stall Low Stall

Grooved Clutch LiningOuter Or Inner Damper Spring

Assembly

Smooth Clutch LiningOuter Damper Spring

Assembly


16

Medium Or Early Type Low Stall

TCRA

2011 Seminar

545RFE TCC Shutter After Rebuild continued

Late Type Low Stall(MD)

Early & Late (MD) Type Low Stall (Grooved)Medium Stall (Smooth)


17

TCRA

2011 Seminar

Thermal Element FunctionSome technicians may be confused as to how the hydraulic cooler bypass system works. At times when the Thermal Element or Fluid Cooler Bypass Sleeve may stick and cause internal component failure without setting temperature codes.

This same problem may also set an intermittent TCC code P0741.

4/5R44/55E 5R55N/W/S Intermittent P0741

4/5R55E Thermal Bypass Valve

5R55W/S Thermal Bypass Valve

5R55N Thermal Bypass Valve

Thermal Element Opens Between150 F & 170 F

There Are Some Aftermarket Kits

That Supply A Block To Keep

The Fluid Cooler Bypass Sleeve Stroked In The Normal Temp

Position


18

TCRA

2011 Seminar


4/5R55EThermal Valve Function

(Lockup Released)

Cooler

INOUT

NO FLOW

Cooler Line

Fittings

FrontLube

CenterLube

RearLube

Transmission Temperature Cold

Plug

Cooler LimitValve

Pump Bushing Lube

TorqueConverter

FLOW

Line Pressure

TCC Solenoid

OFF

Orifice

ThermalElement

Fluid Cooler Bypass

COLD


19

TCRA

2011 Seminar



(Lockup Released)

Cooler

INOUT

FLOW

Cooler Line

Fittings

FrontLube

CenterLube

RearLube

Plug

Cooler LimitValve

Pump Bushing Lube

TorqueConverter

FLOW

Line Pressure

TCC Solenoid

OFF

Orifice

ThermalElement

Transmission Temperature Normal

Fluid Cooler Bypass

WARM Thermal Element Opens Between150 F & 170 F


20

TCRA

2011 Seminar


(Lockup Applied)

Pump Bushing Lube

Cooler

INOUT

FLOW

Cooler Line

Fittings

FrontLube

CenterLube

RearLube


Plug

Cooler LimitValve

TorqueConverter

FLOW

Line Pressure

TCC Solenoid

ON

Orifice

ThermalElement

Fluid Cooler Bypass


LOCKUPAPPLIED


21

TCRA

2011 Seminar



From TCC Solenoid

Orifice

From Main Regulator

Valve

Pump Bushing Lube

CenterLube

RearLube

FrontLube

Rear LubeShuttle Ball

TorqueConverter

Cooler

INOUT

NO FLOW

Cooler Line

FittingsToSump

Line Pressure FromConverter Clutch

Limit Valve

FLOW

5R55W/SThermal Valve Function

(Lockup Released)

Converter ClutchControl

Valve

Converter Pressure

Modulator Valve

Exhaust

ThermalElement

Fluid Cooler Bypass

COLD


22

TCRA

2011 Seminar



From TCC Solenoid

From Main Regulator

Valve

Pump Bushing Lube

CenterLube

RearLube

FrontLube


TorqueConverter

Cooler

INOUT

FLOW

Cooler Line

Fittings


Limit Valve

FLOW


(Lockup Released)


Valve

Converter Pressure

Modulator Valve

ToSump

Exhaust

Orifice

ThermalElement

Fluid Cooler Bypass



23

TCRA

2011 Seminar




(Lockup Applied)


Limit Valve

Exhaust

Converter Pressure

Modulator Valve

Orifice

Cooler

INOUT

Pump Bushing Lube

CenterLube

RearLube

FrontLube


TorqueConverter

Cooler Line

Fittings

FLOW

FLOW


Valve

ToSump

From Main Regulator

Valve

From TCC Solenoid

ThermalElement

Fluid Cooler Bypass

LOCKUPAPPLIED


24

TCRA

2011 Seminar



From TCC Solenoid

From Main Regulator

Valve

Pump Bushing Lube

CenterLube

RearLube

FrontLube


TorqueConverter

Cooler

IN

NO FLOW

Cooler Line

FittingsToSump


Limit Valve

FLOW

5R55NThermal Valve Function

(Lockup Released)


Valve

Converter Pressure

Modulator Valve

ThermalElement

Fluid Cooler Bypass

Converter ClutchBack Pressure

COLD


25

TCRA

2011 Seminar


From TCC Solenoid

From Main Regulator

Valve

Pump Bushing Lube

CenterLube

RearLube

FrontLube


TorqueConverter

Cooler

INOUT

Cooler Line

FittingsToSump


Limit Valve

FLOW


(Lockup Released)


Valve

Converter Pressure

Modulator Valve

FLOW


ThermalElement

Fluid Cooler Bypass




26

TCRA

2011 Seminar


LOCKUPAPPLIED

From TCC Solenoid

From Main Regulator

Valve

Pump Bushing Lube

CenterLube

RearLube

FrontLube


TorqueConverter

Cooler

INOUT

Cooler Line

FittingsToSump


Limit Valve

FLOW


(Lockup Applied)


Valve

Converter Pressure

Modulator Valve

FLOW


ThermalElement

Fluid Cooler Bypass



27

TCRA

2011 Seminar

4/5R44/55E Engine Stall After Rebuild

4R44E & 5R55E

5R55W/S/N

Input Shaft

10” Inches

10 1/4” Inches

Engine stall after rebuild

Special care should be taken when rebuilding a 4R44E or 5R55E transmission. The input shaft on 4/5R55E is approximately 10” and the input shaft on a 5R55S/W/N is approximately 10 1/4”. If the longer shaft is installed in place of the shorter shaft the engine will stall on start up. Eventually you may get the engine to run and this will cause the tip of the input shaft grind off against the torque converter cover and dislodge metal particles through the transmission and cooling system. The installer may not notice the lack of end play between the converter and flywheel (flex plate) because the studs of will already be aligned in the flywheel and there would be no need to try and turn the converter. The part numbers for the correct Input shaft application are listed below.

4R44E & 5R55E ……………………………. XL2Z-7017AA 5R55W/S/N ………………………………… XW4Z-7017AA

Special thanks to Deltran Transmissions in Delaware for this information


28

TCRA

2011 Seminar

4R75E TCC Cycle With O/D Cancelled 2006 Ford Crown Victoria with a complaint of lockup cycling in and out when overdrive is cancelled. With the transmission in overdrive mode (not cancelled) the lockup would work fine.

No codes present the vehicle seem to work fine. The intake air temperature sensor signal seem to slightly fluctuate during operation. Replacement of the air intake sensor fixed the problem.

Typical Integrated Intake Air Temperature (IAT) Sensor Incorporated Into A Drop-In Or Flange-Type MAF Sensor

Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor

(IAT) Sensor(Thermistor)

123456

PIN Function

1 IAT Signal

2 IAT Return

3 MAF Signal

4 MAF Return

5 Ground

6 Voltage Supply

Mass Air Flow (MAF)Connector


29

TCRA

2011 Seminar

5R110W TorqShift

No Lockup Before Or After Rebuild

It is very important to be absolutely sure this orifice is clear of debris, if this passage is clogged, main line pressure can’t get to the TCC solenoid.

This will prevent the TCC from locking-up and cause a number of codes that associate to TCC operation.

5R110W Solenoid Body

TCC Feed Orifice


30

TCRA

2011 Seminar

5R110W TorqShift

Stalling In Reverse Or When Coming To A Stop

TCC Solenoid # 3C3Z-7J136-BA

2005 E-Series, Excursion, F-Super Duty

Vehicles built between 10/1/2004 and11/30/2004 equipped with the Torqshift transmission, may exhibit an enginestalling or quits upon engagement into drive or reverse, or when coming to a stop.

Diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs) P1744, P0740, P0741, P0743, or P0744 may alsobe present. This may be due to a stuck torque converter clutch (TCC) solenoid.Verify the condition exists. Replace the TCC solenoid.

This could also be a cooler issue. Make sure you flush the cooler lines, replace theremote filter element and check the cooler flow. Clear codes, if any, and verifyrepair. Do not replace the torque converter or the pump assembly for this concern.


31

TCRA

2011 Seminar

5R110W TorqShift

TCC Stuck On

Before or after the rebuild and the TCC is on all the time killing the engine. Wecan modify a solenoid so that no oil is fed to the TCC control valve. If the TCC stilllocks up then we KNOW that this is going to be a hard part issue. This test willcompletely block oil from getting to the TCC solenoid.


32

TCRA

2011 Seminar

AW55-50SN Volvo TCC Cycling A late model Volvo with a complaint of TCC cycling after rebuild. This was caused by installing a set of 2 wheel drive planets into an all wheel drive vehicle.

There may or may not be any TCC or slip codes stored or malfunction indicator lamps illuminated. See chart below for planet pinion, sun and ring gear identification.

Front Ring Gear & Sprag Assembly Planetary Assembly

Always count the teeth on parts being replaced during overhaul.

Component Tooth Count Pinions

Front Ring Gear 89 Teeth

87 Teeth

99 Teeth

Planetary Assembly 8

9

Front Sun Gear w/o Hub 24 Teeth

27 Teeth

Front Sun Gear w/Hub 27 Teeth

Rear Ring Gear 83 Teeth

85 Teeth

Rear Sun Gear / Direct Hub 37 Teeth


These are the only available parts identifications at this time.

33

TCRA

2011 Seminar

AW55-50SN Volvo TCC Cycling Continued

Front InternalRing Gear & Sprag

FrontPlanet

FrontSunGear

Rear InternalRing Gear

RearSun Gear

Some Models The Front & Rear Sun Gears

Are Combined WithThe Direct Clutch Hub


34

TCRA

2011 Seminar

AW55-50SN Volvo TCC Cycling Continued

Front Ring Gear & Sprag Assembly

Planetary Assembly

Rear Sun Gear


35

Is It Really The Converter

Documents

Transcript of Is It Really The Converter