Folder 9/22: Binder #2-Summaries of notes and tape transcripts

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4/13/71 2:45 p.m.Pres iden t , H (Haldeman), E (Ehrlichman)

1. Pres iden t - JE Hoover conversa t ion Eas te r w/Pres ident

1. Boggs th ing shou ldn ' t g e t hi m down

2. were fos t e r ing defense

Boggs s ick

3. V o l u n ~ e r e d : a n y t ime I 'm a l i a b i l i t y I'll l eave

I want you r ee lec ted in '7 2

Pres iden t : I passed it o f f

4. Attacks make me tough

5. Praised Wed. Speech

6. Raised he l l re Kleindiens t te s t imony r e i nves t iga t ion

o f FB I

A/G g r e a t

RK (Kle indiens t ) not

(AG phoned me t h i s a.m. to f ind ou t what was said - - JEH (Hoover)

memo 4/12 cu t ; Mardian ou t o f domestic in te l l igence & impl ied;

JEH (Hoover) bugged some a t P r e s i d e n t ' s reques t )

Pres iden t - r eas sur ing - - b u i l t him up

2. Psychopathic - - must go

G Sh in , H (Haldeman)out



2 .

4. IRS & Barth (JC appointment)

With HRH(Haldeman) only - -

5. Conversat ion with J . Edgar Hoover

Sun. and /o r Monday

- Cut Off Mardian I n t e l l . (memo to 12)

- Elec. su rve i l l ance a t Pres iden t ' s reques t

- Known only to JEH (Hoover) and Sul l ivan

- Using Pres ident as t oo l



\I ,---

TRANSCRIPT OF A RECORDING OF A PORTION OF

A HEETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT NIXON, HALDEMAN

AND EHRLICH!1AN ON JULY 6 , 1971



MITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

HITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

7

( ' - - - - -But , uh , they a r e , of course , t hese obviousl eaks t h a t go back in to th e Halper ins , o r t h e

o r Larry·Ly.nn o r th e r e s t o f them and t h a t ' swhat t hey 've been \ 'lOrking on ove r th e weekendand I'll have a b r i e f in g on t h a t today .

John, would you l ike - - do you t h ink it wouldbe w e l l to p u t , uh , to p u t uh, fo r you t o p u t

some -- oh , maybe t h a t isn't t he p lace fo r it.

Maybe th e p lace fo r it's up in a commit tee o f

Congress . Let Ichord and h is bea r c a t s goa f t e r it. Uh, what I 'm g e t t i n g a t is, t h a t , uh ,

you 've go t th e El l sberg c a s e . I , I 'm no t soi n t e r e s t ed i n g e t t i n g ou t and i n d i c t I n g peopld

and then having our mouths shut . I 'm more

i n t e r e s ·ted in f rankly , g e t t i n g th e s t o r y o u t , se e

th e po in t? Th a t ' s even on th e El l sberg th ing .

I 'm no t so sure t h a t I 'd ~ o u l d . t h a t I 'd wanthim t r i e d , conv ic t ed \'7e had to do t h a t because

h e ' s admit ted -- but as long as we c a n , uh - -

Well , uh, \'7e have El l sberg back in to some o f

our domes t i c Cowmunists .

Have you?

Yes .

You r ea l ly have?

Yup.

.Domestic Communists - - nm<l, t h a t s t h a t s g r e a t .

Th a t ' s the kind o f t h ing we need.

Tha t ' s r i gh t . And \<le' re p u t t i n g t he s to ry to g e t h e r . He' s been, a t tended meet ings ou t in

Minnesota and, uh , fo r t h i s cownunis t lawyer i na trial o u t t h e r e and we' re pu t t ing all t h a t

t o g e t h e r . We're g e t t i n ' - -

I s t h a t , i s t h a t th e r e s u l t o f Hoover o r th e

Defense Depar tment , do you th ink?

You mean th e informat ion?



NIXON:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

HITCHELL:

NIXON:

HALDEMAN:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

HALDEMAN:

MITCHELL:

HALDErJ!AN :

MITCHELL:

HALDEMAN:

NIXON:

HALDEMAN:

NIXON:

8

Yeah.

It, it came o u t o f a U.S. Marshal o u t i nMinnesota who, uh . • .

Oh?

• recognized th e guy and recognized h is

background

Gre a t

• and had, had him under su rve i l l ance a tone o f those meet ings .

1-00 Hmm. r-----Shouldn' · t somebody g e t a t - - I assume the;-------'

keep th e f i l e s on a l l those t aps when we wererunning a l l t hose people through.

You know t h a t ~ s

Halper in

This - - In l i g h t of t h i s , some o f t h a t s t u f f may

be a h e l l of a l o t more meaningful now

I

than it was then .

I , I , I ' ve had them reviewed in the Bureau.

There were a l o t of conversa t ions wi th Sheehanin them, to my r eco l l ec t i on .

Were t he re?

I th ink the re were. I may be ,vrong b u t I su re

th ink t he re was. And nobody would agree - -(s evera l t a lk in g a t once)

In l i g h t o f c u r ren t h i s to r y who's g o t th e t imeto r ead it. I haven' · t , I n a tu r a l l y n e v e r s __,v__any o f t h a t s t u f f . < = = ~ ___- - - -



HALDEHAN:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

EHRLICHIvlAN:

NIXON:

EHRLICHMAN:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

9

Well some of it may have been gobbledy gooka t th e t ime bu t it may

Well , a , Bob i s r i gh t . You hever know \vhatthose t aps mean

No .

. u n t i l it r e l a t e s t o . . •

No.

And they ' re being r e V i e ~ something.

John, d o n ' t you th ink t h a t , uh, we cou ld g e t

our se lves in to a , in to a dilemma if Hardianbegins to develop evidence on t h i s conspi racy

and \'1e want to go on a non- lega l approach -e i t h e r leaks or through th e Ichord committee .I f it, if it ge t s too - - if, if, th e Jus t i ce . • _

too f a r down th e track Ie-----U n in t e l l i g ib l e ) . too much in th e

predominance so to speak in the development o f

t h i s - -

Well , it's my idea t h a t v,e should on ly pick

o u t th e hard cases to t r y where we kno\v \'1e canconv ic t ions .

John what i s your f ee l ing on - - speaking o f

hard cases , now- -

uh. Or, a re you, do you sayt h a t you ' r e gonna, t hey ' r e having a grand ju ry

do you, d id somebody t o l d me t h a t Cheean o rSheehan - -

EHRLICHVurn: Yeah, Mardian t o ld me t h a t .

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

Well , we're running a grand ju ry in , in Bostonwhich doesn ' t necessa r i ly r e l a t e to a n y b o d ~ . I see .

It r e l a t e s t o th e o v e r a l l c a se .



NIXON:

llITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

10 (NOW, on Sheehan. Le t ' s t a lk about t h a t . I st h a t smart? J u s t , j u s t being qu i te candid .I s it smart to go a f t e r Sheehan? My f ee l i ng ,

o ff th e top of my head, i s to convict t ha tson of a b i tch before a commit tee.

Shehan?

~ 1 a k e h im th e (unin te l l ig ib le) Here 's the

po in t . Uh. L et me say t h a t , uh 1 e t me, l e tme recap in my own mind the whole a t t i t ude onth e whole th ing on t h i s . F i r s t , and desp i te

a l l th e beat ing and so for th you've t aken , youd id th e r i g h t , we've done exac t ly the r i g h tth ing up t h i s po in t . You had to g e t t h a t case

to cour t . It had to go to the Supreme Courtand when you r ead those , ' ' 'hen you read t he , th e

th e opinions- -

as even Scot ty Reston agreedit, it gave them goddam little comfor t .

This i s th e general census in the ne\'TSpapers now

which I th ink i s r i gh t .

Righ t , t ha t ' s r i gh t .

• which I th ink i s r i g h t and gr ea t .

But my po in t i s t ha t it had to be done. On t he ,on th e other , on the next p o in t , however, I th ink

t h a t having done t h a t and now, now, we've got to

cont inue t o p r o t ec t th e secur i ty o f these , these

th ings - - having in mind our mvn secur i ty - - b u t ,

not recognizing t ha t there i s , in my view, Ith ink there i s - - I , I won ' · t say t he r e , bu t

t h e r e ' s very, it seems to me , pr e t t y good evidenceo f a consp i racy . Do you f ee l the r e ' s a conspi racy?

Well , yes .

I d o n ' t j u s t d o n ' t know.



15

EHRLICHHAN: Yeah.

MITCHELL: No . I \ ' louldn' t \';ant him to t e s t i f y becauseif he d id , he 'd ask fo r immunity and t h a t ",ouldbe th e end o f it.

E H R L I C H ~ f f i N : Tha t ' s r i gh t .

MITCHELL: And we can ge t th e tes t imony ou t , ",e know

E H R L I C H ~ f f i N : You can never , you can never g e t Sheehanexcep t on th e tes t imony o f uh witnes ses

MITCHELL:

HALDEMAN:

on t he , uh \ ' lel l , uh, on th e committee o r ontes t imony of o th e r s , o th e r s , l imi ted , and so f o r t hand so on.

\'1ell - -

A ll we'd have to do g e t maybe somebody who

received th e s tu f f .

EHRLICHI1AN: Plen ty o f peop le , people have been convicted

wi thou t (unin te l l ig ib le) it's a t e r r i b l e l e s son .

MITCHELL: Sheehan, Sheehan 's wife was one o f them. She ' s

go t a qu i te a po l ice r ecord including shop l i f t i ng

dO\'ln here in Washington.

UNIDENTIFIED: Well, I suppose , '(unin te l l ig ib le)

HALDENAN: She has no expec ta t ion .

"J..,MITCHELL: No , n o ~ of them have any immunity e x p l i c i t o r

(unin te l l ig ib le)

NIXON: We're we're

EHRLICHHAN: vie're going to have t o ga ther t h i s informat ion

in t h a t ' s ava i lab le to the Pres iden t .

MITCHELL:

EHRLICHMAN:

MITCHELL:

A ll r i gh t . Dick Hoore has been working o n ~ s o m e of t h i s . He' s got a lo t o f th e backgroundmemoranda.

H e ' l l be (unin te l l ig ib le)


EHRLICHMAN: He c a n ' t (unin te l l ig ib le)

MITCHELL: Yeah.



7/10/71Pres iden t , H (Haldeman), E (Ehr1ichman), RMW

Explain to Whituer

Close to home

Fur ther from Univ.

No commercial advantage to anyone

Se l l to \ ' lh i t t ier

Nixon In s t i t u t e fo r World Peace

In a Quaker College where it belongs

Thru GSA

Tota l ly per sona l fo r po l . papers

Be kept t he re , r i o t here

Here: Museum

Library

s p l i t up papers

OK to s p l i t up

Whit t i e r - - quan t i ty land

parking

no t prox. to Pres iden t

2. Conf. res ide

A conservat ive center

3. Make use in terchangeable

w/Whi t t ie r



2.

9. Ellsberg a t Sper l ing GP

Tonken Gulf

McNamera t apes

While consu l tan t to JC o f S

10. Rogers - - should be t apping more - -

11. Re grand jury - -

Don' t worry re t aps on discovery re Wtts(White House orwitnesses)

12. Goal

Do to McNam, Bundy, JFK, e t c . th e same

des t ruc t ive job t h a t was done on Herber t

Hoover yea r s ago

LBJ Angle - - the Kennedy people be i nher i t ed - -



7/12/71 11 a.m.

President, H (Haldeman), E (Ehrlichman)

1 . Straub - - check him re IReferred I .1

3. Pendleton s i te for l ibrary

Holding out zoo

H (Haldeman) out

NW#:36514 Docld:31443854



NW#:36514

2.

Mardian In

1 . Re National Securi ty taps

Especia l ly Specia l Coverage Taps

Beecher

Sheehan

Hedrick Smith

Overhearings would be disc losed

Referred

HRH (Haldeman)In

Pres iden t

2. Southern D i s t r i c t o f New York

Whitney N. Seymour, J r .

Summer In terns

Dis loya l

Lindsey-types

Including North Seymour

3. M(Mardian):

a number c£

documentso ut

NSC has

H (Haldeman) has

4. H (Haldeman) recover documents from Haig

S. Pres iden t - - ok. obtain an d dest roy a l l logs

Docld:31443854



3.

6. Tel l Hoover to des troy

7. M (Mardian): Ordered only to go with grand jury

shor t of newspaper

Witnesses o r newspaper

Indictments

Await in s t ruc t ions from Attorney General

Now a t t ha t po in t

Can make Sheehan (? ) Ellsberg cases now

8. Pres iden t - - Let the Committees

East land

Ichord

Hit the papers

9. E.G. Congress iona l f ight CBS

Don ' t c a l l newspapers before grand jury

10. 10 year Sta tu te of Limitat ions

Espionage

An inadequate s t a tu t e

Need to inqui re re law i s adequate



4.

11. M (Mardian): Quest ion i s Ichord

East land more dependable

Has bes t lawyer

K l e ~ n d i e n s t and M (Mardian) to Sen. E (East land)

President requests him to

Do it soon

12. FB I going a l l ou t now

13. We'l l no t deny Ichord th e s t u f f

Get East land in too

14. Haig re turn documents to FBI

Then to RM (Mardi an ) fo r des t ruc t ion

Haig r eques t the FB I (Sull ivan) to des troy a l l

spec ia l coverage

Sul l ivan wi l l con tac t Mardian

15. 20% of source documents missing (Ellsberg)

Can ' t be found in Government f i l e s

16. Mathias - - d i d n ' t de l ive r h is documents

17. Pres iden t phone c a l l

18. Gelb the pr inc ipa l co-conspi ra tor



10/2/71

HWarning o f worry

Sul l ivan a t FBI - - wi l l blow big

Top guy wi l l come ou t bad

Po l i t i c a l foo tba l l major propor t ions

Other s ide wi l l use it

And Sul l ivan wi l l s ing

We should s tand loose



TRANSCRIPT OF A RECORDING OF A PORTION OF

A fillETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT NIXON, JOHNMITCHELL f u ~ D JOHN EHRLICHMAN ON OCTOBER 8 ,

1971, FROM 10:04 A.H. TO 10:46 A.H. IN

THE OVAL OFFICE



1

MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT NIXON, t1ITCHELL AND EHRLICHMANON OCTOBER 8 , 1 9 7 1 , FROH 10:40 A.H. '1'0 10:46 A.I'I.

MITCHELL: .

PRESIDENT:

},1I'l'CHELL:

EHRLICHHAN:

MITCHELL:

EHRLICHMAN:

PRESIDENT:

EHRLICHI-lAN:

PRESIDENT:

H r. Pres iden t , tw o o the r quick t h ings

if you have another moment.

Sur e .

We have t hose , uh, t a p e s , logs and sofo r th over in Mardian ' s sa fe on t h a tbackground i n v e s t i g a t i o n , wire tapp ing

we d id on Kiss inge r ' s s t a f f , th e newspapermen and so f o r th . Hoover -- uh,those were given to Hardian by Sul l ivan

before he l e f t .

We have a l l the FBI ' s cop ies .

Yeah. Dh. Hoover i s t e a r in g th e p lace

up over the re t ry ing to g e t a-t 'em and,uh, o f cours e th e defense i s t h a t l1ardian,Mardian has them because you di rec ted himto have them. Th e quest ion i s , should\"le g e t them ou t of Hardian ' s o f f i c e before

Hoover blows the sa fe o r , and br ing 'emover here and pu t 'e m in John ' s cus todyI th ink John ' s cus tody, which I th ink

"lould be th e appropr ia te th ing to dobecause t hey ' r e p a r t o f the o v e r a l l inves -t i ga t i on o f uh, th e Pentagon Papers ~ n ~ n _ n _________th i s Hhole mess. (- - - - -My impres s i on from t a l k in g to Mardian i s t h a tHoover f e e l s very insecure ' ' ' i thout havingh is own copy of those t h ings because , o f

course t h a t gives him l everage " , i th

Mitchel l and with you

Yeah. (• and because they I re ille g a l . Nm" ,he doesn ' t have any cop ies and he has agen t s

a l l o v e r t h i s town i n t e r r o g a t in g peop le ,

t ry ing to f ind o u t Hhere they a r e , - - He' s

go t Hard ian ' s bu i ld ing under s u r v e i l l a n c e

He doesn ' t even have h is o"m, uh - -

...



2

MEETING B E T ~ V E E N PRESIDENT NIXON, NITCHELL AND EHRLICHM-ANON OCTOBER 8 , 1971, FROH 10:40 A.H. TO 10;46 A.M.

EHRLICHr-1AN:

PRESIDENT:

EHRLICHMAN:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

EHRLICHMAN:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

l<1ITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

NITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

NOw, se e , we've go t 'em. Sul l ivan sneaked

'e m ou t to Mardian.

NO\,1 why th e h e l l d i d n ' t he have a copy, t oo?

I f he does , h e ' l l b e a t you over th e headwith it.

Yeah.

(- - - -Oh .

I th ink t h a t it's ve r y we l l s t r u c tu r e d

where it is, b.u t t he imp- - , th e • • •

He ' s g o t ( u n in t e l l i g ib l e )

• • • c r unch , th e crunch i s t h a t they

sh o u l d n ' t be in M ar dian ' s hands becausehe would suspec t what Mardian mi g h t do

with them v is a v is Hoover .

Mardian ' s i n J u s t i c e , youfve g o t t a g e t

them o u t o f the re . Do \,ie have them in

my hands , then?

Sure , s u r e .

Why d o n ' t we j u s t say th e P r e s i d e n t wantsthem in h is own hands and I 'm ge t t i ng ,

t r y in g to g e t some from Helms in my own

hands . Why d o n ' t we say it t h a t \ ' lay?

An d Hoover knows damn ' '7ell I 1m n o t going- . : : . - - - - -.

to do any th ing : ( ...___Wel l , Hoover \'lOn' t come and t a lk to meabout it. He j u s t g o t h i s , uhf G -,Gestapo a l l o v e r th e p lace .

Yeah.

I f , if he does, I 'm j u s t gonna say t h e y ' r e

over here .

Who w i l l , Vlho \ " i l l , Vlho \v i l l do t h i s . You 'veg o t in mind?



NW#:36514

___________________

MEETING BET\\,EEN PRESIDENT NIXON, HITCHELL AND EHRLICHHANON OCTOBER 8, 1971, FROM 10:40 A.H. TO 10:46 A.l1.

EHRLICHMAN:

PRESIDENT:

EHRLICHMAN:

PRESIDENT:

EHRLICHMAN:

PRESIDENT:

EHRLICHMAN:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

EIIRLICHMAN:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

Sure .

J u s t say t h a t 'ltTe ,.,ant them. P u t them

in a spec ia l s a f e .

I ' v e g o t , I 've g o t a place I can p u t ' em.

But no t to mention, you tell Hoover .

No , I , I would say t h a t if 'ltTe d o n ' t tell

Hoover anything. I f Hoover comes to Johnwhich i s what Mardian ' s been t e l l i n g himto do

Yeah.

then John can say t he P r e s iden t h asthem and, J u s t i c e .

Th a t ' l l , that'll t u r n him o f f .

Referred

Uh , Mr. Pres ident , Mr. Hoover is t e a r ing

up t h a t damn p lace o v e r t he r e and , uh , wehave, as I know it's a d i f f i c u l t problem.Uh , b u t I want to tell you t h a t I ' v e g o t

to ge t him s t r a igh tened ou t which may l e a dto a h e l l o f a conf r on ta tion un le s s we

f ind another say • • •

Yeah.

because he has p r a c t i c a l l y s h u t o f fHardian from the Bureau • • •

Docld:31443854

3



4MEETING BET\\,EEN PRESIDENT NIXON, NITCHELL AND EHRLICHJl.1ANON OCTOBER 8 , 1971, FROM 10:40 A.N. TO 10:46 A.M.

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

HITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

I unders ta nd.

• • . and uh, I do n I t kno", how \.;e go

abou t it, Vlhether ,,1e r econs ider Mr. Hooverand h is e x i t o r whether I j u s t have to

bear down on him. Lead to a conf ron ta t ion

o r what , uh - -

Well , as I to ld you, I w i l l s t a r t o f f t h a tp r a c t i c e . He says t h ink it's r i g h t . Hesays I know whenever you - - you 've g o t t a g e t

r e - e l e c t e d ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) . I f you t h ink

t h a t my presence i s going to be r ea l l y harmf u l , he s a y s , I w i l l r e s i g n . Th a t ' s apr e t t y , p r e t t y n ice wa y o f say ing I d o n ' t

th ink I am harmfu l . He was t a l k in g about

h is suppor t on th e Hi l l and so fo r th andso on.

v\1ell, su r e .

Uh , as o f th e moment t h a t i s t r ue t h a t heought a r e s i g n , fo r a l o t o f r ea sons heoughta r e s i g n , in my view i s he oughtar es ign whi le he ' s on t op , before he b e

comes an i s sue in th e cur ren t , th e l e a s t

o f it i s he ' s to o o l d .

He' s g e t t i n g s e n i l e , a c tu a l l y .

He should ge t th e h e l l o u t o f t h e r e . Now

it may b e , which I kind o f doub t , I d o n ' tknow, maybe, maybe I cou ld j u s t c a l l himin and t a lk him in to r es ign ing .

S h a l l I go ahead \.;i th t h i s conf ron ta t ion , t h e n ,

on t h i s uh a v a i l a b i l i t y of the agents and

t h e i r ma-ter ial?

Sure .c

and th e S e c r e t S e r v i c e .

I th ink you should

I th ink we should .

And then -- H e l l , let's, let's ru n t h a tby ( u n in t e l l i g ib l e \.;ith noise) then . Wel l ,



5

MEETING BETvlEEN PRESIDENT NIXON 1 HI'rCHELL AND EHHLICHMAN

ON OCTOBER 8 1 1971 1 FROH 1 0 : 4 0 A.M. TO 10:46 A.r,1.

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

NITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

lUTCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

I mean l I 'm wil l ing to take it on i f we

have to do it. There , the re , t h e r e ' r esome problems in it I mean, the dayHoover goes, why he goes ou t - - you see ,

it's l i ke a l l these people t h a t say, \ ' iel l ,

th e he 1 1 , they have g o t Agnevl, change and,and a ce r t a i n area p o l l shows t h a t Agnew

a t the presen t t ime would be l i a b i l i t y morethan an a s s e t a t a ce r t a i n per iod of t ime.

We know t h a t Agne", c a n ' t l eave t h a tt i c k e t unless he does . Can ' t do it. And

th e same i s t rue of Hoover - - if I f i r ed

Hoover, if you th ink we've go t an upr i s ing

and a r i o t now ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e with no ise )

would be t e r r i f i c Edgar Hoover has got to go .I f he does go, he ' s g o t to go o f h is own

vo l i t i on - - t h a t ' s what we g e t down to ,and t h a t ' s why we' re in a he l l o f a problem.And a t t he p resen t t ime , I don f. t th ink 1

John, I th ink h e ' l l s tay u n t i l he ' s 100

years o ld . I th ink he loves it.

I th ink h e ' s j u s t a

He loves it.

H e ' l l s·tay til he I S · bur ied t he re .

Immortal i ty . Th e way h e ' s , th e way he ' shandl ing t h a t depar tment - - uh • . •

Yeah.

t h i s , t h i s s tu f f ' s gonna break . • •

Yeah.

around it.

Well , can I , uh, can we do, uh ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e )

I 'm w i l l i n g t o f i gh t him, bu t I don ' t .

You see , I t h ink we've go t to avoid the

s i tua t ion where he - - he could l eave ,v i th ab l a s t t h a t i s ( u n in t e l l i g ib l e ) I d o n ' t th ink

he , · , i l l . I th ink he ' s so damn p a t r i o t i cand he knows very w e l l t h a t (un in te l l i g ib l e ) . .

He's no t he ' s no t gonna b l a s t u s . ( ....

_____



6

11EETING BETllJEEN P R E S I D E i ' NIXON , MITCHELL AND EERLICHNAN

ON OCTOBER 8, 1971, FROM 10:40 A.M. TO 10:46 A.M.

PRES IDENT :

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

HITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

HITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

HITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

EI-IRLICH.t-'lAN:

fo r us , but I 'm , on the o th e rhand, you can 't have him go o u t o f th e re

murru':>ling. \\ 'hat do you "Tant to do? Imean, if you th ink you want him o u t ,

I'll play the game \ ' lith you, to g e t himin here and - -

You f e e l t h a t h e , he \vi ll n o t t a ke th e

scenar io th a t we've t a lked abou t

fo r the b ig hur rah on January 1 , . • .

life 11 .

• let's say, wi th somebody i n the re inth e meantime .

I so r t a , I went a l l round with him. Isa id it might be b e t t e r to do t h a t , t r y in g

to s t a r t a t the o th e r end. J u s t c o u ld n ' t

run th e r i sk s \vith th e e l ec t i on .

Haybe 've oughta l e t , mayb e "Te oughta

let some o f these Indians loose over t h e r e

and s t a r t t ea r ing 'e m up a little b i t .

Well , maybe a f r i end o f h i s i n t h e p r e s s

oughta " , r i te t h a t . They ' v e go t th e gu t s

to do it. A Dic k ' i l s o n , peop le l i ke t h a t .Hoover ough ta do t h i s a t th e peak o f h is

ca ree r . In o the r words , it's l i k e Lou

Gerhig and a l l the g r e a t guys you knmv -

Bob F e l l e r - - th e ones t h a t you remember,are the ones , you knm'l, who d i d n ' t p lay

t h a t e x t r a year . Th ey s t ruck o u t . Th eygo t ou t Ted 1;ifilliams d i d n ' t ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e )

Is th e re any s uc h person t h a t ' s t h a t

c lose to Hoover?

Damned if I knmv.

The, uh - - our , our t ime f rame, : I t h in k , i s vet i g h t because of Su l l ivan i s s i t t i n g o u t

t h e re and " ' i th a h e l l o f a l o t of inform a tiQ..n.

C



HEETING BETI'7EEN PRESIDENT NIXON, IH'fCHELL AND EHRLICHHAN

ON OCTOBER 8, 1971, FRO N 10: 4 0 A.M. TO 10:46 A.M.

!-1ITCHELL:

EHRLICHHAN:

MITCHELL:

EHRLICHMAN:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

r.lITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

EHRLICHtv!AN:

MITCHELL:

I wonder i f De Lo ach could go and t a l k t o

him.

There ' s bad blood th e re , I 'm t o l d .

No .

I s n ' t th e re?

I d o n ' t know. I d o n ' t know. I d o n ' t know

t h a t the r e ' s anybody. Dick Ber l in? lV-a n -tto t ry him? He 's been awful ly c lose to

Hoover through the year s .

I d idn ' t r ea l i ze t ha t .

Oh h e l l y e s . Close f r i end s . Dick alway s

usefu l and t ha t he, he j u s t oughta g e t

ou t o f the re and John, in the meantime,I d o n ' t th ink John oughta handle th e

conf ron ta t ion . What do you th ink?

Yes, s i r .

You s t a r t it, you s t a r t itt and thenmaybe I can s t ep in and tell him t h a t

t h i s (unin te l l ig ib le)

I got {unin te l l i g i b l e with noise}

One l a s t po in t t h a t ( u n in t e l l i g ib l e ) no


UNIDENTIFIED: Shor t , shor t , b r i e f .

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

One l a s t po in t . Th e y ' r e going to mee twith Peterson and, uh . • •

Yeah.

Flan igan .

Right .

For Chr i s t ' s sake , we 've got to ge t

t h a t Sta t e Depa rtmen t from c u t t i n ' youto p ieces , uh, Kennedy should go over the re

and s e t t l e t h i s t h ing as they j u s t d o n ' thave t h i s b a ck f i g h t in g .



MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT r:IXON I HITCHELL AND EHRLICHMAN

ON OCTOBER 8 , 1971, FROH 10:40 A.H. TO 10:46 A.H.

PRESIDENT:

HITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

EHRLICHblAN:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

Yeah, yeah . Because ( u n in t e l l i g ib l e )

we c a n ' t ( u n in t e l l i g ib l e ) I guess , w e l l ,

( un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) . Everybody has a( u n in t e l l i g ib l e )

Goodbye, Mr. Pres iden t .

Ne l l , Char les ton l I .ssociates in th e c i t y ,

Yeah.

~ f u a t ' r e you going do ( u n in t e l l i g ib l e )

when I g e t a l l th e press in here and a l l .Thank you very much, John. Have a good

t r i p t o ( u n in t e l l i g ib l e )

Yes, s i r . You, too .

Thanks. I apprec ia t e your coromin' in .

Right .

8



S ~ G R E : r .. ' .: . ;! "'. :' . " . " .

TRANSCRIPT OF A RECORDING OF A

MEETING IN THE OVAL OFFICE B E T ~ V E E N PRESIDENT NIXON and JOHN EHRLICHMAN

OCTOBER 25, 1971 from 12:35 to

2:05 p.m.

I .I '/1II



2

(uninte l l i g ib l e ) . I , it might be, it mightbE Ci-::'-va i l tCigeous I guess.

Ehrl ichman. (Uninte l l i g i b l e )

President . I can see , fo r example , why we had to do en t i r e(uninte l l i g i b l e ) I t was bas ica l ly an i ssue .tha t could have been a h e l l of an i s sue , otherwise .

Ehrlichman. Yeah, yeah.

Pres iden t . Revenue shar ing , I th ink was ju s t something wej u s t did '"

Ehrlichman. Defens ive - -

President . (Unintel l igible)

Ehrlichman. Defense

Pres ident . Jus t to be doing something, to be t ry ing

Ehrlichman. Well , it's, it's our answer to the problemso f the c i t i e s , the farms

Pres iden t . Problems of the (unin te l l ig ib le ) and a l l t h a t ,as fa r as the average guy i s concerned, it d i d n ' tmake much, uh, it d i d n ' t make as much headway.I \vonder th is year i f , ah, we rea l ly want to goon a new, a grea t new i n i t i a t i ve , I wonder, Iwonder, I - -

Ehrlichman. W e l l - -

Pres ident . I ... you see , the poin t tha t I , uh, r a i s e andincid en ta l ly , t h i s i s re la ted also to ourproblem on Hoover. I read h i s , I mean yourmemorandum. That ' s a very good fe l lm 'l , is it Liddy?

Ehrlichman. Liddy.

Pres iden t . Smart , i s n ' t he?

Ehrlichman. Yeah, very.

Pres iden t . Hust be conserv at ive as h e l l

Ehrl ichman. Con servat ive?

Pres ident . Smart. How'd he get , why'd ge t in the ~ u r e a u ?



3

Ehrl ichman. Dh, he \ ' lUS Hoover 's ghost wr i t e r . Dh , did al o t o f Hoover ' s speeches . (uninte l l i g i b l e )

Pres iden t . And Hoover f i red him?

Ehrl ichman. ~ n d , uh, no, no, he go t d i s i l l u s i oned . And,uh, he , he put in fo r a t r ans fe r and \ve foundhim over in , uh- - -

Pres iden t . Let me t e l l you what I have a fee l ing on ~ C - - - - It's a way ou t th ing . His , h is a n a l y s i s L ~ ~ Hoover from a psychological s t andpo in t i strem endously percept ive . We may have on ourhands here a man who wi l l pu l l dmvn th e templewith him, including me. I don ' t th ink he wouldwant to , I mean he considers himsel f a pa t r i o t ,bu t he now sees himsel f a s McCarthy d id , Bensond id , and perhaps Agnew does . • •

Ehrl ichman. Yep.

Pres iden t . • . . now ...

Ehrl ichman. Yep.

Pre s iden t . • • . a s , he sees himsel f as an i s sue r a the r than

the i s sue \-lhich i s th e grea t . . •

Ehrl ichman. v 1 e l l - -

Pres iden t . . • . weakness of any po l i t i c a l man.

Ehrl ichman. Ordinar i ly I would no t , . • •

Pres iden t . Hickel did .

Ehrl ichman. . •• ord ina r i ly I \vould not have sen t you th e rwhole p iece , • .

Pres iden t . I heard the whole th ing

Ehrlichman . . . . ut I wanted yo u to ge t t h a t bui ldupt h a t t h i s guy g ave you.

Pres iden t . That piece would make a br i l l i an t , b r i l l i a n t piece

fo r a magazine, anyway . He makes - - ac tua l ly ,and th i s i s - - ge ts dmm to your o the r poin t ,i n t e r es t ingly enough , a s t ronger case fo r no t doingsomething on Hoover than doing something.



Ehr l ichman.

Pr es i den t .

Ehrl ichman

Pr es i den t .

Ehr l ichman.

Presio .ent .

Ehr l ichman.

Pr es i den t .

Ehrlichman.

Pr es i den t .

4Hummmm, mmm

NOw, t h e r e ' s something in between[noise]

There must be

You see , f i r s t o f a l l , t he , a f t e r , let's supposewe, we, we g e t Hoover in and I convince him wec a n t t , o r , you know, or de r , no way I 'm gonna sayI d i d n ' t ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) C-----------

\_--Yeah.

Now, j u s t l e t me run t h i s by you, j u s t occurredto me r i g h t now, t he he l i cop t e r t he devious way

t o g e t a t a very en t i r e d i f f i c u l t problem.We do t h a t , t hen Hoover, through a l l o f h is

ope r a t i ves , ' v i I I p i s s on anybody t h a t ''Ie sendup t he r e vlho o th e r name. And I d o n ' t th ink hewi l l approve any o the r name. Tha t ' s my guess .

You have th e f ee l i ng maybe t h a t. he might approvePat Gray, i s t h a t cor rec t? ( - - - - - -

Well , I , uh, I th ink P at h2s a b e t t e r chance than

most .

Yeah, But look, so you, so I send P a t Gray 's name

up, then you come to something e l se . You' re gonna

come in to one of the h e l l e s t , damnedest Senateconf i rmat ion f i gh t s you ever saw, who i s P at Gray?HOvl i s he qua l i f i ed? He's a Finch , a s tooge /a

Nixon s tooge , now I agree he i s n ' t , you should havehave a proper Bure2u, if you have somebody fromth e Bureau, t h e y ' l l say you should have somebodyfrom ou t s i de . And then , uh, Ramsey Clark w i l l berecommended.

[Laughs]

No , I 'm ser ious .

Ehrl ichman. I know, I know.

Pr e s id e n t . NOvl, t h e r e ' s a \'lay to ge t around it. Tha t we

defuse th e whole god-damned th ing . Hoover made a ·very i n t e r e s t ing p o in t , he sa i d , r e g a r d l e s s o f wh o

wins in '72 , he says , I'll probably be ou t . And



5

o f course he ' s r igh t . Why doesn ' t he

announce now t h a t I am, t h i s i s my l a s tyear in th e Bureau, I am submit t ing myr e s i gna t i on e f f ec t ive on Janu ary 1 s t , 1972 ...

Ehrlichman. Hmrom m l l i ~

Pres ident . • •• so t h a t th e new Pres ident , I mean, th e

Pres iden t who's e l e c t ed , s o t h a t I w i l l no t

be an i ssue in the campaign. The Pres ident

w i l l s e l e c t him, they , e l e c t anybody t h a t

he wants . Now, let's look a t t h a t fo r amoment. The weakness in it i s t h a t we'vestill go t a , an i n e f f i c i e n t FB I to screwaround with fo r a year . I 'm no t su re ",e cando a h e l l about , a h e l l o f a lo t about the

e f f i c i ency of the FB I in a year anyway. Uhf

t h e , uh, th e o t he r weakne ss i s t h a t presumablyHoover ' s enemies \ 'lould b e so fu r ious a t havingth e i ssue removed they would cont inue on it.

But it's pr e t ty hard to take on a man when hesays "Now, I ' v e , I , I t h ink I ' ve had it. I ' vedone my job and a t th e end o f t h i s , I , I mightgive th e new Pres ident , whoever he i s , vlhetherit's Pres ident Nixon or it's ,uh, t he o t he r

P r es i den t , I "lant them to knm'l t h a t t h i s , t h i si s t h a t I 'm going to t ake th e Bureau ou t o f

p o l i t i c s .

Ehrlichman. Uh huh.

Presiden ·t . Now from Hoover ' s s tandpoin t , he j u s t , he hasto r ea l i ze t h a t he can ' t s tay fo rever . He hasto r ea l i ze t h a t , th a t th e new pres id e n t , th a t a t ,uh, 78 year s o f age - - i s t h a t what he would bethen?

Unident i f i ed He's 77 now.

Ehrlichman. I d o n ' t know, I forget .

Pres ident . Anyway, uh, t hen , t .he th e advantage o f t h a t i st h a t uh, wel l , 'tlhat I 'm more concerne d aboutthan any th ing e l se t h a t I , I d o n ' t th ink vIe t a l ked

thro ugh adequate ly (uninte l l i g i b l e ) o f ge t t i ng

Hoove r ou t . It's going to be a problem. I shouldth ink th e confirm a t i on p ro jec t would be one t h a twould make th e Supr eme Court look l i k e , uhf youknow - -



6

Ehrlichman. Yeah.

Pres ident . Whatcha doin ' about c i v i l r igh ts?

Ehrlichman. Wiretapping and

Pres ident . ~ i h a t do ya ask about wiretapping.

Ehrlichman. Yeah.

Pres ident . What i s t he , ah on Hoover - - look up Hoover ' sname and age.

UNKNOWN. Hoover 's age?

Pres ident . Don ' t c a l l th e FBI to f ind ou t , j u s t , j u s t lookit up. I think it's 76 or 7 , I would , ' ,ant to

. knm.., month of bi r thday . Ah, now, you, l e t ' s let's

look a t t h a t in terms o f , uh,

Ehrlichman. One th ing that'll happen - -

Pres ident . No, I don ' t know, I don ' t know, maybe it won' t v.'Ork r

but I , I guess , I guess , I , t h a t , I th ink t h a t wecould ge t Hoover, I th ink I could g et Hoover to

res ign i f I put it to him d i r ec t ly t h a t withou tit he ' s going to be hur t p o l i t i c a l l y ,..,hich I happento bel i eve if you do it otherwise . But I t h i nk if

he r e s i gns , and I th ink , he ' s going t o , I d o n ' t

th ink he ' s going to l i k eit, I

d o n ' t th inkI

I th ink t h a t your conf i rmat ion i s going to be onehe l l of a job . And yo u want to remember whoeverwe appoint , uh, i s appointed a t th e , '7ill of the

Pres iden t anyway. (unin te l l ig ib le )

They can (unin te l l ig ib le ) i f we l o s t the e l ec t ion .

Ehrlichman. Sure. You -take the pos i t ion tha t y o u ' l l pick hYs

successor if you ' r e e l ec t ed .

Pres ident . Yes.

Ehrlichman. In other words , there ' d be no, uh , campaign i ssue

t he r e .

Pres ident . Right , t ha t ' s r igh t . I 'm not wil l ing to suggestit now, who's it gonna be . I'll s t a t e only t h a tit's not gonna be Ramsay Clark . (unin te l l i g ib l e )Tough. You kncv7, j u s t say t h a t ' s an i s sue , t h a tthe FB I should not be an i ssue in the campaign, 've ' 1pick the very bes t poss ib le man we can ge t a t t h a t

t ime. And t h a t ' s it. ' j ' - ~ D ~ - - ~p. , t I .. . I~ , ; ; ,-,..., <.' , ; • __



7

Ehrlichman. Uh, huh. Uh, huh.

Pres ident . In a fe w . - -

Ehrlichman. Then he becomes a lame duck d i r ec to r .

Pres ident . Correct . So? How much a re you going to dowith the FBI anyway in a year?

Ehrlichman. He can ' t

Pres ident . You c a n ' t do it. It's a h e l l of a job. Ican see it as a - -shake up. I f he becomes

a lame duck d i r ec to r . But al so he mightbecome a lame duck d i r ec to r . Everybody,

maybe, t ry ing to l e t the old gu y go ou twithout piss ing on him . • • •

Ehrlichman. Yeah

Pr es i den t . . . • and say, look here , l e t ' s •••

Ehrlichman. Yeah.

Pres ident . . . . and he t r i e s to keep, he becomes a little

wild-eyed, maybe, j u s t t ry ing to , you know\fuat kind of a , i nc iden ta l ly , what kind of aman i s Su l l ivan , inc identa l l y? I , I don ' t knowhim.

Ehrlichman. Well , I don ' t know him a t a l l , they t e l l me he i s

Pres ident . I thought you d id knm'l him.

Ehrlichman. No , I never , I , I d o n ' t think I 've ever met himor i f I have I only met him on very shor t

Pres ident .

acquaintance. /

He seems to me,an d capable .

from the descr ip t ion , he ' s honest(

Ehrlichman. - - thought fu l . Uh, he ' s as tu t e , uh, uh, a verysens i t i ve guy, uh, apparent ly very wel l -spoken andhas , uh, very s t rong , uh, loya lties , running down

i nto the personnel of the Bureau. And, uh, uh, a t

one t ime had an enormous amount of power over the r e ,dele gate d by Hoover.



8

Pres ident . Oh, d i d n ' t Sul l ivan do some of the i n t e l l ig encew.ork for Hoover - -

Ehrlichman. Oh, yes .

Pres ident . And u s .

Ehrlichman. Sure

UNIDENTIFIED: Tha t ' s r igh t , s i r . He wil l be 77 nex t b i r t hday ,

which i s January 1s t .

r r e s iden t . Fine. Now, you see , there it i s .

Ehrlichman. Yeah

Pres ident . No, no man in h is r igh t mind can say a t 78 the

Pres ident of the United Sta tes ought to beappoint ing hi m as d i r ec to r of the FBI.He's too o ld .

Ehrlichman. Yeah. Uh, Sul l ivan wa s the man who executeda l l of your ins t ruc t ions fo r the sec re t t aps .

Pres ident . So he knows a l l of them.

Ehrlichman. Oh, I should - -

Pres ident . Wil l he r a t on us?

Ehrlichman. Uh, it depends on how he ' s t r ea ted . It's

dependent , it's, see , uh, uh

Pres ident . Ca n v,e do anything fo r him? I th ink we b e t t e r .

Ehrlichman. What he wants , of course , i s vindica t ion . He'sh e ~ s .been bounced, in e f f ec t , and what he wantsi s the r igh t to honorably r e t i r e and so on. Uh,I th ink i f yo u did anything fo r Sul l ivan , Hooverwould be offended, r i g h t nOVl , it would have to bea pa r t of the arrangement , whatever it i s , t h a tSul l ivan could be given an assignm en t somevlhere

e l se in the Government. And, uh -·-

Pres ident . Out of the Governme

n t . Yeah, held be a h e l l ofan operator, . •

Ehrlichman. We could use him

Pres id en t . He'd do a good job.



NW#:36514

9

Ehrlichman. We could use him.

Pres ident . Hmm, Mitch and I agree

Ehrlichman. We could , we could use hi m on o t h e r t h ings .

Pres iden t . Liddy ' s not on your committee?

Ehrl ichman. He's got , he 's go t a fund of informat ion and,uh, uh, could do, uh, could do a l l kinds of

i n t e l l i ence and o ther work.

Pres iden t .

Ehrlichman.

Referred

Pres iden t .

Ehrl ichman.

Pres iden t .

Ehrlichman.

Pres iden t .

Ehrlichman. He'd be very, he 'd be very qua l i f ied fo r t ha t

kind of a (un in te l l ig ib le ) .

Pres iden t . Hoover upsets me.what he ca l l s i t ?

" Is the sun dm-m"? i s t h a tThat 's h is favor i te term.

Ehrlichman. Yeah, and, and, uh, he s t r i c t l y in Mardian ' sor b i t . You see he t r ea ted with the

Pres ident . Mardian 's the "Lebanese Jew"

Ehrlichman. (Laughs). Ya see t h a t .

He's t r ea t ed with the enemy so , uh, and he has .

Sul l ivan del ivered the papers to Hardian t ha t

are unbel ievable "ha t I 've go t up in ray sa fe .A ll the ins ide documentn.

[PAUSE]

DocId:31443854:



10

Pr e s id e n t . Wha-t do you lean to a t th e moment?

Ehrl ichman. H e l l , I l ike your i dea . I , uh , h a v e n ' t hada chan ce to th ink it a l l through.

Pre s id e n t . vlel l , d o n ' t me n t i on it to anybody.

Ehrl ichman. Wel l , I won ' t .

P res id e n t . Th e d i f f i c u l t y i s th a t I have dec ided a f t e rour agonies over th e Cour t t h a t from now on ,

and i nc i den t a l l y t h i s i s th e main reason fo r

no t submit t ing it t o t he Bar in advance. We ' reju s -c p lay ing every th ing very c lose to th e ves -cand you know, v.7e, it's i nev i t ab l e around h e r e

( un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) it d o e s n ' t a f f e c t you so

much asit

does Kiss inger , of course , uh , to

Presiden-t .

a ce r t a in e x t e n t ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) Pe te rsen andth e r e s t , , , ,here 19 ou t o f 25 bureaus d id yousee t h a t , in Washington sa id t h a t th e b a c k

grounders "7ere, uh, qu i t e o f f th e b e a t and -sof o r t h and so on . Wel l , f i ne , let's n o t havethem.

[7 MINUTE DELETION)

Well , d ig r e s s io n , l e t me say t h a t I t h in k -chat

th e b e s t way to do here i s t o - - I f e e l it wouldhelp us to , as we g e t c l ose r to e l e c t i o n , t h e i ron ly i n t e r e s t i s to , it seems to me t h a t every

t ime we, it ge t s o u t th e f a c t t h a t some poor

a g e n t over here ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) say wel l t h a twas our l a s t scandal .

Ehrl ichman. Yeah. I saw t h a t .

Pres ide n t . Nho could poss ib ly have done t ha t ?

Ehrl ichman. Wel l , you see th e problem.

Pr e s id e n t . Some guy ,.,ho' s t i r e d .

Ehrl ichman. Some l ow- leve l guy, in th e NSC • . •

Pr e s id e n t . Yeah.

Ehrl ichman. • .. could have been c a l l e d - - -

Pr e s id e n t . Why th e NSC, might have been over in , uh ,

McGregor ' s shop.

Ehr l ichman. It could could have been .



14

Pres ident . (Uninte l l ig ib le)

Ehr l ichman. I th ink th i s .

Pres ident . Princeton study?

Ehrlichman. . t h i s Princeton th ing i s gonna g e t in to

the fo lk lore and i t ~ s gonna become a p a r tof the givens . It's gonna be a p a r t o f t he ,

o f the es t ab l i shed f ind ings .

Pr es i den t . Well , when w i l l t h a t happen?

Ehr l ichman. Well , t he , th e end of t h i s month.

Pr es i den t . They to ldme

t h a t - - wel l ,it's

a very l e f t i s hgroup.

Ehr l ichman. Oh, it i s , it's s tacked , j u s t stacked

Pr es i den t .

Ehr l ichman.

Pr es i den t .

·Ehrlichman .

Pres ident .

Ehr l ichman.

Pr es i den t .

Ehr l ichman.

Pr es i den t .

Ehrlichman.

Pr es i den t .

So

Uh

So we l e t a man be c ruc i f i ed by a s tacked j u ry .

No, I th ink

(Uninte l l ig ib le)

No, I th ink if h is r e s igna t ion were in handyou could af ford to defend him. And I th ink

you can a f fo rd to do a lo t of th ings fo r himas a l ame duck as you get in to the c ~ ~ p a i g n which w i l l be apprec ia ted by h is f r i ends andw i l l be v i r t u a l l y unc r i t i c i zab le . And, and,and I see th a t as a r ea l - -

Do some th inking about it

I "Till , I "Till

. . and I'll tell you what wi l l happ e n.Then you ahd Herb and, and Mitchel l and I

wi l l t a l k about it.

Okay

There ' s only the th ree . There ' s only one o th e r _ _ _ _ _one t h a t I might bring in on it i s Hoore. e--His , h i s P . R. judgment i s no t i n f a l l i b l e bu t

it , he has goo d antenna . C !l. .: j ;CvtC.,.,'· J 1



15

Ehrlichman. Yeah

Pres iden t . he has a good f ee l

Ehrl ichman . Yeah

Pres iden t . And he doesn ' t l eak .

Ehrlichman. Yeah. A ll r igh t , wel l , I won ' t , I won ' t sayanything to the tviO of them, but , uh, when

you ' r e ready, why, uh, we 'll ta lk .::;.bout it.

Pres ident . Well, what I meant i s , f i r s t , yo u give it

your judgment.

Ehrl ichman. Yeah.

Pres iden t . Oh, wai t a minute. You could , no, I'll t e l lyou what you could do. Don' t run it byMitchel l because I need to do t h a t or I shouldf ee l t h a t , t h a t t h i s i s no t , I don t \>mnt himto f ee l tha t t h i s idea i s coming from somebodye l s e , Mitchel l th inks he has to go, bu t I

would l ike fo r you to kick it around . Do youth ink you should kick it around with Moore o r

do you j u s t want to make - -

Ehrlichman. Let me do t h i s . Let me l e t Moore read Liddy 's

a r t i c l e and, uh, uh, I ' ve g o t a copy of it - -Pres iden t . Let me g e t it o u t o f my f i l e .

Ehrlichman. Okay - - and then I'll,

Pres ident . He can read my copy.

Ehrlichman . . . I'll ta lk to Hoore .

Pres ident . I und er s tand . Right .

Ehrl ichman . I ' ve go t the only other copy of th i s .

Pres ident . And, uh, then Hoare?

Ehrl ichman . nn d then , l e t Dick and I - - Dick and I ' ve t a lked

about Hoover 's problem befo re . He's very con-cerned about it.

r



20

Ehrlichma n. S u r ~ .

Pres ident . these are Pres iden t i a l appointme n ts

Ehrlichman. Sure.

Pres ident . appare n t l y , aren ' t they .

Ehrl ichman . Well, they ' r e d i r - - , they ' r e appointe d by th eDirector as a prac t i ca l mat te r , o ld Ronney and,uh, the Hi l l have a lo t to do with th e appoin t

ment o f these guys.

Pres ident . But j u s t th ink of t ha t .

Ehrlichman. Yeah.

Pres ident . they \von' t have to c l ear Civ i l Service

Ehrlichman. That ' s r igh t .

Pres ident . And inc iden ta l ly , I am, I am cont inuing t h a ti s sue .

Ehrlichman. Yeah, yep, yep. It has . .President . Anything come ou t of tha t?

Ehrlichman. it has g ive n

Pres ident . . o r .

Ehrlichman. t ha t disc ip l ine t ha t t h i s fellow t a lk sabout , uh, t ha t in te rna l d isc ip l ine t ha t , t ha thas been so impor tant to the success of t ha tth ing . Uh, wel l , lemme, lemme think about it

and I'll t ry and make a list of the negat ives ,

i f there are any and drop you a note on it.

Pres ident . There are negat ives , j u s t don ' t drop me a note

Ehrlichma n. All r igh t .

Pres ident . . we 'll t a lk about it.

Ehrlichman. All r igh t



Pres ident .

Ehrlichman .

Pres ident .

Ehrl ichman.

Pres ident .

Ehrl ichman.

Pres ident .

.;-,. (--- j- . ::--'7" ~ l . - ~ - " - r ; : = - - :

.-.., .

We' l l t a lk about t h i s and th e n, w e ' l l t a lkbout t h i s wi th you, Moo re , and w e ' l l have,

uh, and Mitche l l , and, uh, no more. J u s tthose .

Yeah.

And then maybe \ve' 11 move the damn th ing .

A ll r i gh ty .

It'd be gr ea t if he would do it. But whatthe h e l l would he do, '<lh a t the h e l l , whatcan he say to t h a t though? I f he ' s a lameduck.

Ah , t h a t it would impai r h i s , impai r h is use -

fu lness i s the one, i s the one th ing t h a t occurs

to me. And it would be hard fo r him to main-t a in i n t e rna l d i s c ip l ine if everybody knew

he wa s leaving and so on and so for th bu t

h e l l , everybody knows he ' s leaving now, yo uknml, it's j u s t a quest ion of t ime. And they

a l l , they a l l now a re on one s ide o r ano ther

of e i t h e r cont r ibut ing to o r slowing down

h is depar tu re . And t h e r e ' s a , t h e r e ' s an e r n a ~ war going on there .

Get t ing back to the t ax t h i ng .



1/8/73

Re FB I cur ren t s t a tu s ?

Gray c a n ' t c u t it need to change - - de t e r i o r a t i on

Ruth may not have the s t a t u r e & mist ique

- - - - - - ~ - - ~ I - -

Pres iden t th inks Gray n o t able enough - - lacks the energy

Have to f ind ano the r pos t fo r Gray

Pres iden t th inks he could do Bonn (or OEP No)

Keep it open fo r him

Thorough run th ru on appointments - - sub Cab

Don ' t be too hard on our f r i ends

Soon as we ' r e ready - - have a go on appointments



DRJ\.F\

SECRET

Transc r ip t o f a Recording o f a Conversa t iono f February 16 , 1973 between P r e s id e n t Nixon,John Ehrl ichman and L. Pa t r ick Gray fromapprox imate ly 9:08 to 9:39 a.m. in th e OvalOff ice - I

,

8ECRET

- - - ----------------- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

~ I /7



SECRE=f:

Transc r ip t o f a Recording o f a Convers at iono f February 16 , 1973 b etween Pres iden t Nixon ,John Ehrlichman and L. Pat r i ck Gray from

approximately 9:08 to 9:39 a.m. in the OvalOffice

Pres ident :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Ehrl ichman:

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Unin t e l l i g i b l e .

Hi. How a re you.

Mr. Pres iden t . How a re you s i r ?

How are you? Nice to see you.

You look gr ea t .

Fine. How're you fee l ing?

Good.

Fine .

Mean, nas ty .

(Laughs)(Un in te l l ig ib le ) a b i t happy •

That ' s cause I go t you up ear ly t h i s morning?

A little b i t ea r ly .

Let me ask you, j u s t how i s your hea l t h , uhf

(unin te l l ig ib le )

Good.

You had your operat ion?

It's good, Mr. Pres iden t . I cal l ed t h a tth ing Sunday morning when we wakened to goto Mass, I to ld Bea, I sa id t h a t damnobst ruc t ion i s back and t ha t ' s exac t ly

,.;hat it was. Th e re was no evidence o ftumor s , no cancers , the re wa s j u s t a s imple

adhesion around th ere .

In o the r words, as fa r as your ab i l i t y to

work and everything, why, no quest ion need

SECRET- - - ------ - - -------------- -------



February 16 , 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m. S L ; G R E T ~ 2

Pres iden t :

(cont . )

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pr e s id e n t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

be r a i s ed , in o th e r words y o u ' l l pu t in the

long hours and a l l .

No, I 'm still doing it - - d id it r i g h t in

the hosp i t a l the day a f t e r th e opera t ion ,

I brough t my execut ive a s s i s t a n t up ands t a r ted r i g h t away.

L et me ask a couple o f o the r th ings , uh ,·having to do with , uh, "7hether we decide

here , uh - - as you probably a re aware, uh,what t h i s , if you were to be nominated,and uh, I th ink , of cour se , I ' ve t a lked to

John Mitche l l , about t h i s , (un in t e l l i g ib l e ) .

Uh , you, obvious ly op en up, before ad i f f e r en t committee than the Ervin Commit tee,the whole ~ ' 1 a t e r g a t e th ing . Now th e quest ioni s , uh, whether you f e ~ l t h a t tha t , uh,t h a t , t h a t you can handle it, whethert h a t ' s a good th ing , bad th ing and sofor th - - what I mean i s , the Watergatecommittee , even though it has these ,

( un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) and th ree wonderful j ack

asses on it and so for th . It w i l l be badenough t he r e , your committe e would haveKennedy, and Tunney on it.

Righ t .

They'd l i ke to make, uh, uh, make qui te adea l about th e th ing . What I 'm ge t t i ng a ti s t h i s , uh, I 'm not concerned about th e

substance, about th e f ac t s coming o u t . I am ,

a l l I 'm, a l l , I 'm thinking is, uh, whether it's

to the i n t e r e s t o f everybody concerned to

have, uh, the uh, man who i s to be nominatedfo r D irec t o r o f the Bureau be badgered andso for th on whether it's good fo r us to havet h a t s to ry to ld twice before tw o commit tees ,uh, e t c e t era . So, uh, \vhy d o n ' t you give meyour judgment on t h a t . You must have thought

about it.

Oh, yes .

You must have thought also o f the kind o fa s to ry you 'd have to t e l l when you 'd beexamin ed on it. withou t being l im i t e d to

Watergate , they would probably ask you abo u t

such th ings as , do you know about any o t he r

SECRET



NW#:36514

February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m. SECRET

3

Pres id en t :(cont . )

Ehrlichman &Pres ident :

Ehrlichman:

Pres iden t :

Ehrlichman:

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres ident :

\

things t h a t th e Bureau's done, have you ~ - - - _____ _go t in to t h i s domestic wire tapping, wherei nc iden ta l ly , paren th - - , paren the t i ca l ly ,whatever you ' re hear ing, it's t ime to s t a r tge t t ing out the t r u th there which i s , i s ,heighten the evidence t h a t i s on hand.It's the Robert Kennedy Admin is t r a t ion ,Jus t i ce Department, when the re were over ahundred a year . It's been c u t down to avery small amount. Then, I would be n o t

tha t defens ive about it. I 'd say, yes ,

we have to do it because, uh, th i s involves

the poss ib i l i ty o f , uh, v i o l e n t groups t h a twe've got t h i s what happened to Wallace,(un in te l l ig ib le ) j ud ic i a l judgment.

(Uninte l l ig ible )

He can t e l l a s t rong s to ry .

Yeah, say , look, what do you want us todo about t h i s? Do you want to l e tg e t shot? I

Referred

I th ink the Bureau's been very s tup id , I mustsay , and a lso

We, uh .

A ll th i s domestic wire tapping, it isn't

j u s t , uh, it's anything to do with th eUnited Sta tes and so for th , and o f cyou can (un in te l l i i b l e ) .

s e c u r ~ t y , uh, the , t h e r e ' r e a h e l l o f a l o t o f people ,

these v i o l e n t groups, who would th rea ten

these uh, th e J e ~ . , s and a l l the o ther saround, the Arabs. '

Um - hum.

Ei ther one, e i the r ; s ide , you know, t he r e ' st h i s v i o l e n t Jewish Committee t h a t wants to

k i l l the Arabs and th e Arabs want to k i l l the

Jews and Chr i s t , t hey ' r e - -.D.o c l d : 31443854

, ,c ._ ' • .- ' ' - : ~ ' • • - - = , , ' ! ' ~ : ' - : " : ' \ : : - - -

QCPOJ:T



February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m. S E C R E ~ 4

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pr e s id e n t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Terrorism i s , i s a t r ag ic problem.

Terror i sm, h i jack ing i s another t h in g .

And you've go t to ge t in to tha t . Right .

Some o f t h a t requ i res wiretapping. Higherand your au t hor i t y , your , your r e spons ib i l i t yin h i jack ing , your r e spons i b i l i t y fo r , uh,t h i s . I th ink t ha t you 've go t to ge t , andI want , John and me fo r next t ime.(unin t e l l i g i b l e ) I 'm al ready h i t t i n g . Idon ' t be l ieve we should be defens ive .

F i r s t o f a l l , we ' re do in ' l e s s . Second,it's uh, it's, uh, it's extremely necessa ry .

We must n o t be denied the r i g h t to use the

weapon. The i dea t h a t we're wire tapping al o t o f p o l i t i c a l groups i s b u l l s h i t • .

Th a t ' s r i g h t and t h a t , simply no t - -

L e t ' s , let's g e t back to the fundamentalp a r t o f it.

It's, it's the o the r - -

You know t he , you know the , you know the

mood o f th e Congress , as you know they ' r e ,t hey ' r e panicked , depres sed , by Watergateand so for th . What should we do, would it

hur t o r help for you to go up the re and bemashed about tha t?

Uh , I th ink probab ly , Mr . Pr e s id e n t , I 'm theman t ha t ' s in the bes t · posi t ion to handlet h a t th ing .

Why?

Beca.use I ' ve cons i s t en t ly ·handled it fromthe ou t se t , before Judge S i r i ca ' s o r d e r came

to p lay , when we were. t a lk ing only procedureno t subs tance , and I handled a l l kinds o fques t ions from a l l kinds o f press peop le andthen when Si r i ca shut the va lve , why I had to

shu t up, even on, uh, th ings procedura l . I ' v ebeen in t ima te ly connected with it. I ' ve beenresponsib le for qui te a b i t of the uh,

decis ion-making i n s o f a r as the Federa lBureau o f Inves t iga t ion i s concerned. If ee l t h a t I would have taken a gr ea t e r bea t ing

had no t the Ervin Committee been es t ab l t shed

S E C R E ~



February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.

SECRET 5

Gray:

( con t . )

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

and t h i s i s always a p o s s i b i l i t y the re

t h a t you ' re no t going to g e t too muchf lack befo re Judic iary . I th ink you 'd ,

I th ink I 'm going to take the , uh, expectedhea t from, uh, Kennedy, Bayh, Hart , Tunney,t h a t group, uh, b u t I d o n ' t th ink it's goingto be near ly as severe as it would have beenhad not the Ervin Committee been es t ab l i shed .

I th ink t ha t ' s where it's a l l gonna, uh,hang o u t and I 'm not ashamed fo r it to hango u t because I th ink th e Admin is t r a t ion hasdone a h e l l o f a f ine job in going a f t e rt h i s th ing and I t h ink we ' r e prepared to

p r e s e n t it in j u s t t h a t l i g h t . Now if youbring somebody e l se i n , uh, you can bea t tacked , uh, as , uh, ducking th e i s sue ,

t ry ing to pu t a new boy in so he can go upthe re and say, " I d i d n ' t have anyth ing to

do with t h i s . This happened on Gray 's watch.Get him back here and l e t him t a lk about i t . "

I th ink it's a th ing \.;e ought to meet headon, on every f r on t .

(Un in te l l ig ib le ) Let , l e t me say , what ,what , what kind o f s tory could you t e l lwhen they say you , t h a t you d i d n ' t go i n t o ,t h a t we had a very in tens ive i nves t i ga t i on ,

we ran down a l l l eads , who'd you t a lk to ,yes we, we quest ioned a t very grea t l eng th ,

took sworn s t a t emen t s .

Did you swear in s ta tements?

Yes, yes , we d id .

And t h a t members of the White House s t a f f - why d i d n ' t you ques t ion Haldeman? What doyou say to tha t?

Per fec t ly good reason we d i d n ' t quest ion

Mr . Haldeman. Because no agent , even the

case agent r i g h t a t the lowest l eve l , f e l tt h a t any t r a i l led to Mr . Haldeman. He did

no t recommend t h a t a lead be se t ou t to

in terview Mr. Haldeman. Th e f i e ld superv iso r

did not . The c i r cu la t ion char t s d id no t .

The Bureau superv i so r d id no t • • •

It d id , leads d id lead to others?

SECRET



February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.

SECRET 6

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

It d id lead to o t he r s .

(Un in te l l ig ib le ) and so f o r t h .

And we went a f t e r them.

( un i n t e l l i g i b l e )

This i s one I had

You ques t ioned Mitche l l .

S i r? Yes, s i r .

Yeah, Mitchel l was quest ioned.

Oh, thank you.

You quest ioned Stans and so f o r t h .

Yes, we, Stans , th ree t imes, Mitchel l once.Bob Haldeman no t a t a l l . I 'm not r ea l lyaf ra id o f t h a t th ing because I ca l l ed

th o se agents in a t the end o f t h a t f i r s tweek and j u s t gave them unsh i r ted h e l l andto ld them to go and go \" i th a l l the vimand v igor p o s s ib l e . I fur thermore ca l l ed

Larry O'Br ien t h a t Saturday morning andI sa i d , "Mr. O'Br ien , I hear the r e ' r esome rumors around t h i s tOvln t h a t the FB I

i s n o t , uh, pursuing t h i s with v igor . "And, he s a i d , "No, oh no," he sa id , "Let me

assu re you we ' r e very happy with what you ' re

doing." So, I ' m gonna lay t h a t on t h e i rbacks and o the r th ings l ike t h a t . I , I d o n ' tf ear t h a t inves t iga t ion a t a l l , Mr. Pr es i den t .

~ v h a t e l se do you th ink , they wi l l r a i se?

Morale in the Bureau, and so for th and soon?

Well , I th ink t h e y ' l l do t h a t bu t I th ink we

can shoo t t h a t down eas i ly because I ' v ego t a l l kinds o f , uh, l e t t e r s from the f i e ld

t h a t I wouldn ' t l e t come to you. I s topped

them. They t r i e d to , uh, respond to t h i sc r i ti c i s m t h a t morale i s bad. It's ac t ua l l y

higher than it's ever been in the Bureau.

SECRET



February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m. SECRET 7

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Ehrl ichman:

What other s i tua t ion , fo r example, uh,

you see , you haven ' t been able to doanything o r have you, up to th i s po in t ,

about the l eaks , (nois e ) vou know are a l lcoming from th e Bureau, t h a t the whole (s t o ry , ' t l e ' ve found i s coming from the - ----Bureau.

Well , I 'm no t completely ready to buy tha t ,Mr. Pres ident . We have done something. I ' vebeen wiping people ou t o f t he r e , you know,l ike th e Assyrian on the foe . I wiped ou t

a whole d iv i s i on .

(Un in te l l ig ib le ) Do 'tTe have, do we haveany que s t ion about t h a t le aks, those leaks

coming from the Bureau?

No.

Yeah, Pat and I ta lked about t h a t ,(un in t e l l i g ib l e)

(

Pres ident : Tha t i s n ' t what our , t h a t i s n ' t \'lhat our ,

ou r , our Time magazine guy says , he ' s gota, d i r ec t channel to th e Bureau.

Ehrl ichman: Tha t ' s r i gh t .

Gray: Well , he probably has . Sandy Smith used to

t a lk to a l o t o f guys in th e Bureau and I

won ' t t a lk to the S.O.B. anymore because i fhe lays the cards down.

Pres iden t : This i s very high.

Gray: No. We l a id the c ards on th e t ab le andt ha t ' s low - - th ree t imes, ' r i g h t . Laid'e m r i gh t ou t the re . Gave the same cards

to Newsweek and each one wrote , wroted i f f e r en t ly and I j u s t sa id no more to t h i sclm'ln and I won ' t , I \'lon' t deal with him.

Pres iden t : Well .

Ehrl ichman &

Pres ident : (Un in te l l ig ib le )

Ehrl ichman: The re i s no two ways about it •••

SEGRET ,



February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.

8

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Gray:

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Smith has wri t t en s t u f f t h a t i s t r ue , r i g h t

o u t o f the Bureau

There , the re i s no c------• • • r i g h t o u t o f the Bureau.

• quest ion about t h e i r get t ing

Yeah • • •

th e uh, uh, t he , t he informat ion • .•

Yeah.

o ff the 703 's o r whatever those forms

a r e , •

Yeah.

the inves t iga t ion summary forms.

So they

302 's?

Yeah.

And, uh

Because, I would say if they were f a l s e ,

then I would j u s t say it was t ime to • • .

There ' re some t h ings . . (

. . • bring those th ings to an end. Butt h i s i s a case ,.,here they have t rue i n f o r -

mation and I say wel l damn it, somebody fromthe Bureau. Do you th ink Pe te rsen ' s of f i ce

pu t s - i t ou t?

Uh, Mr. Pr e s id e n t , you have to r ea l i ze t h a to t he r people t han , than we g e t the 302 'sand I have p u t some pre t ty s t rong con t ro l s

on our disseminat ion and our account ing . And,I d o n ' t say t h a t it's not poss ib le it can

come from the Bureau, it i s poss ib le .

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February 16 , 1973f rom 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.

9

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres id en t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

1i"el l, l e t me ask you t h i s , fo r example ,d id you fo llm-l through on th e , uh, d i r e c t ive

which I unders tand was g i ven t h a t everybodyin th e Bureau was to take a l i e de t e c to r

t e s t as to whether , uh, what p a r t they p layedin the wire tapp ing o f my plane in 1968, hast h a t been done?

No, no t h a t d ir e c t ive was no t g i ven ou t .

(Well , it's given now .

Yes s i r .

Yeah. NOW, uh, what , what happened t h e r e ,

wh o dropped th e b a l l on t h a t ?

I don ' t know, o f it, Mr. Pres iden t .

Do • • •

Yeah. There , t h a t cha r ge has been around ,whether it's t rue or no t , I don ' t know bu t ,

uh, th a t i s to be , uh , th a t has to b e , t h a thas to be, uh, th e IV'ashington Sta r has th e

s t r a i gh t s t o ry , uh , uh, Johnson k i l l ed i tin the S t a r , uh, bu t it ha s to be ch eckedou t , ju s t fo r t he , fo r t he , fo r th e i n t e g r i t yo f th e Bureau.

I checked ou t some o f the a llegat ions t h a t

John Dean gave me on Bromley, uh, Smith ,I

guess th e book 's name i s and what th eywere doing on Anna Chennau l t and hm., theyt r i e d to uh, uh

But th ere wa s a wire tap , th ere was a phonewire tap fo r sure and the re was an a l l ega t i on

t h a t • • •

On you r p l ane , s i r ?

Hoove r to ld me

Mm.

• t h a t th e Bureau tapped my p lane • • .

Urn hum.

SECRET




Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

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Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

in 1968 and he to ld Mitchel l the same

th ing .

Um hum.

Now I want everybody in the Bureau who hasanyth ing to do with wiretapping a t t h a t t imequest ioned and given a l i e de tec to r t e s t .

Um hum.

• . . no t because I 'm t e l l i ng you t h i s bu t

because the a l l e g a t i o n ' s been made and the

S t a r ' s been running the s to ry

Righ t .

• .• and we wanta knock it down. Don ' t yoube l ieve you should?

Oh , su re . But I h a v e n ' t

(Un in te l l ig ib le )

I d i d n ' t have any d i r ec t ive l i ke tha t , Ihad some ques t ions from, uh, from John Dean

about Bromley Smith, Anna Chennault andcompany.

I unders tand . I 'm no t making charges , bu t

I do know t h a t t h a t has come up. A ll we do

i s to play it very •••

I wouldn ' t p u t it pas t them to do it.

I wouldn ' t p u t it p a s t Johnson.

No .

It's no t t ry ing to do him in b u t it i s veryimportant t h a t it be knm-m in the Star andI th ink th e Star i s \vorking with onemagaz ine ,

I d o n ' t know which one, t h a t it be known,t h a t t h a t ' s being inves t iga ted , so t h a t wej u s t d o n ' t say , oh no, the Bureau d i d n ' t doit. I know the , uh, I know the Bureau ' s

sens i t iv i ty on tha t , bu t , uh, are the samepeople t h a t do wire tapp ing fo r the Bureau now,

are th ey the same ones you had in '68?

8EGRE:-T



February 16 , 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.

SECRET 11

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Ehrl ichman:

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

We th ink , uh , we th ink , Mr. Pres iden t ,

t h a t if such an order came, it came toDeke De Loach from Lyndon Johnson and t h a tit •

Well , t hen , De Loach must b e brought in andp u t on a

Yeah, if Deke go t it, he gave it.

A ll r i g h t , he used to have it, he ' s gonna. l i e d e t ec t o r a l so .

Urn hum.

He's o u t , I know, b u t h e ' s still go t t a take

one . I mean, t h i s has got ten -- I want t h i sd o n ' t you agree , John? We've go t to g e t

to th e bottom o f th e damned t h ing .

Well , I wanta , you know •••

I 'm no t gonna be in here denying it fromhere unless the Di rec to r o f th e FBI t e l l sme t h a t it's been che cked.

Right .

The FBI cannot be above, uh, th e law on t h i s

th ing .

Oh, I know it, no, if t h i s \vas done we 'veg o t t a look in to it and if, even if th e

a l l ega t i on i s the re we ' ve go t ta look in to

it.

Was F e l t the re in those days?

No. He was n o t a t , uh, he may have beenin th e Bureau, I s h o u ld n ' t answe r that tooqu ick ly .

Who, would you p u t , uh, who, who do youth ink would be a f a u l t o f e i t h e r th e se cond

man over t h e r e . U h . (--=------I t h in k , I t h in k , Mr. Pres iden t , t h a t , uh,my, my recommendation to you nmv would beto con t inue F e l t b u t I th in k what I ' v e go t

SECRET




Gray:(cont . )

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Gray:

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

to do i s , and which I 'm in t he proc ess ofdoing , i s come up with an overa l l p l an tosubmit to you and you and I should discu sst h a t p lan .

The only problem you have on F e l t i s t h a tthe l i ne s l ead very d i r ec t ly to him, a ndI c a n ' t be l ieve it, b u t they lead r i g h tthe re and, uh, and, uh - -

Well , you know we've t r i ed to t r ap him


• •• the t r ap i s , th e t r ap i s , se t t r aps

around to see if we, to see if we can turnsomething up and, uh, and uh - -

c

Well , why d o n ' t you g e t i n the fel low t h a t ' smade the charge, then.

Well , maybe t h a t ' s (unin te l l ig ib le)

Of course h e ' s , o f course h e ' s , he ' s no t

a newsman, on th e o t he r hand.

No .

He's a lav;yer

Th a t ' s r i g h t .

• • • fo r Time.

I know who he i s ·, Mr. Pres iden t .

• •• and, uh, w e l l .

I knew the r eason , I knew the a l l ega t i ons

ex i s t ed and I t h in k , I th ink one th ing

Mr. P r e s id e n t , I vlOuld l i ke to say to you,because I be l ieve I must say it to you,those , those people over the re a re l i kelittle o ld l ad i e s in t enn is shoes and they ' veg o t some of the most v ic ious v ende t t a s going

on and t h e i r gossip m i l l i s • • •

In the (un in t e l l i g ib l e )

SECRET



February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.

13

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

In the FBI.

In the FBI.

Sure , it's a , it's the damnedest • . •

It's eaves by eaves ,

e l s e .

Tha t ' s r i g h t .

ha t ing everybody

I have been hear ing - - what about th i s fel lowSul l ivan , good, bad o r ind i f f erent? Would

you br ing him back? Would t ha t ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e )

(-:-:----I wouldn ' t br ing him back , a t a l l , I wouldn ' ttouch him a t a l l .

Why not?

His f i r s t words when he came back to Washington,in response t o ques t ions from some of thepeople in the Domestic In te l l igence Divis ion

as to why he was here , in tw o words , "Forrevenge ." B i l l Sull ivan was a very d i sappo in ted

man when Hoover, uh, pu t Deke De Loach in th e

posi t ion as Ass i s t an t to the Direc to r .

He f i r ed , I mean, yeah.

••• Hoover d i d n ' t l i ke him.

Di dn ' t l i ke him and he began a t tack ing

Hoover. Uh , th e guy, the guy i s too nervous ,h e ' s , he ' s no t a r t i cu la te a t a l l , •.

Coming back to , coming back though to F e l t ,uh, it would be very , very d i f f i c u l t to , uh,have a F e l t in t h a t posi t ion withou t havingt h a t charge cleared up.

I . . .And, i nc i den t a l l y , l e t me say t h i s , t h i s i s ,

th i s i s alsoa

d i r ec t ive , you should takea

l i e de t ec t o r t e s t on him.



February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a ~ m . SECRET

14

Gray:

Ehrl ichman:

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Ehrl ichman:

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

You want him • .

(Un in te l l ig ib le ) accounts .

You want him •

You're wi l l i ng fo r him to t ake a l i e de t ec t o rt e s t , a r e n ' t you?

Sure .

Why shou l dn ' t he?

I ' ve taken, uh, h e l l , I ' ve

Has he ever t aken one?

(I d o n ' t know.

Have him t ake one. Nm'l, t h a t charge hasbeen made, John you prepare the ques t ions ,

you know, t h a t have been made. Ha s heta lked to Time magazine? Uh, t h i s and t h a t

and the other th ing and h e ' s to do it o r

he i s n ' t going to ge t the job. That ' s the

way it has to be . You see , the th ing i st h a t the r e ' s a l a c k o f disc ip l ine ove r the re

a t the presen t t ime. And we've , - - t ha t ' sp a r t o f the problem, the morale , t h a t ' sp a r t of the problem with l eaks .

In the FBI, Mr. Pres ident?

Sure , t h i s s tu f f · d idn ' t leak \'lhen Hooverwa s t he r e . I ' ve never known o f a leak when

Hoover was t he r e . I could t a lk to him in

t h i s of f i ce about everything. And the

reason i s tha t , it wasn ' t because th eyloved him, bu t they feared him. And they 've

go t to fea r the man a t the top and t ha t ' swhy I 'd ge t it again - - And Hoover 'd l i ede t ec t those guys, I know t h a t he , he evend id it to Lou Nichols once, because o f

charges made he l eaked. You've got to playit exac t ly t h a t way, you've got to bebr u ta l , uh, tough and respected , uh, because ,

uh, the , uh, - - we c a n ' t have any kind of are la t ionship with th e Bureau, which i s



February 1 6 , 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.

15

Pres iden t :

(cont . )

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

necessa ry , you know, here , we can ' t have

any kind o f a r e l a t i onsh i p unless we cant r u s t it and I ' v e , uh, •••


• •• I used to have, and I , and I wouldexpec t with t he , the Direc to r in th e fu tu re

to have a r e l a t i onsh i p - - with Hoover ,he ' d come in abou t every month, he ' d bethe re a t b r e a k f a s t o r he 'd come in here .

He'd come in a lone no t \vith the AttorneyGenera l . I 'd t a lk about th ings . I used to

have him - - my c o n ta c t with him, it w a s n ' t ,

you know he 'd always sa id t h t he d i d n ' t wantme to des igna te one person he ca l l ed , heca l l ed on th ings and, uh, r a i s ing h e l l aboutHelms and the Agency, CIA, and th e Sta te

Department, and so for th . Much o f it wasextremely va luab le bu t - - and it neverleaked ou t o f here , you know t h a t he wasgiving me the s t u f f t h a t he had. And het a lked - - uh, Ehrl ichman wa s my con tac t .

Ehrl ichman wi l l be in the fu tu re , you 'vegot ta have one man • • .

Urn hum.

• • • t h a t w i l l no t t a lk .

Urn hum.

I wouldn ' t th ink o f having it to go, uh,bu t , uh, anybody e l s e .

I cou ld use Dean b u t he ' s too busy on o t he r

th ings so I

John , th e p o in t i s

( un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) r e s t .

• •• The r eason , P a t t h a t th e r e l a t i onsh i p

o f th e Di r ec t o r , t o the D ir e c t o r and Pres i den t

i s l i ke the r e l a t i onsh i p o f th e Pres iden t and

th e Commander, uh, uh, and the Chairman o fthe J o i n t Chief s .

Righ t , I unders tand.



February 16, 1973

from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.16

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

I , uh, as you know, uh, Mel Lai rd , uh ,

i s , uh, very tough on t ha t , bu t , uh, hed i d n ' t - - he always wanted to be in \'l i th

th e Chie fs , and uh, - - and, uh, j u s t

yes te rday , tw o days ago, I brought Moorerover , d i d n ' t l e t anybody from the NSCs t a f f come in . (unin te l l ig ib le) l'iTasn' ta h e l l o f a l o t we wanted to t a lk abou t

t h a t they cou l dn ' t have heard , b u t I d i d n ' ttell 'em. The reason was t h a t I found t h i ssummer, fo r example, a t a t ime when r i g h ta f t e r we had th e May bombing, t h a t I hadp u t o u t severa l d i r ec t i ves to con t inue to

s tep up the bombing because I kne,'l t h a t

t h i s , t h a t was about the t ime to do it,

to pu t the p ressu re on t o b r ing about the

n e g o t i a t i o n . And Moorer to ld me t h a t hes e n t over a t l e a s t twelve recommendationst h a t never reached my desk because Lai rd

d i d n ' t , 'lant to go forward on it. Now,

goddawn it, t h i s i s no t going to happen.NOW, with th e Bureau, it's the Pr e s id e n t

t h a t ' s the D ir e c to r , no t t h a t you have the

Attorney Genera l as t h e D i r e c to r . Nowhaving s a id t h a t , though, we c a n ' t do it,

we canno t do it, un les s t h e r e ' s t o t a lcommunication and t o t a l d i sc i p l i ne in t h a tBureau. And, h e l l , I th ink if we p ick up

Time magazine and see t h a t something 's Cl eaked ou t , e i t h e r o u t of the Bureau -- _____- - - - -I unders tand l eak ing ou t o f th e CIA, those

goddamned cook ie -pusher s - - bu t if it l eakso u t o f th e Bureau, then the . . ,hole damn place

ought to be f i r ed . Real ly , it shou ld , u n t i l ,j u s t move them a l l o u t to the f i e ld . I , Ith ink you 've g o t to do it l i ke t h ey d id

in th e war, you say whenever you know, uh,you remember in v70rld War I I , uh, th e Germans,uh , if they went through t hese tmvns andthen one o f t h e i r so l d i e r s , a sn ipe r h i t oneo f them,they 'd l i ne up the whole goddamnedtown and say u n t i l you t a lk you ' re a l lge t t i ng sho t . I r ea l ly t h ink t h a t ' s whathas to be done. I mean I don' t th ink youcan be Mr. Nice Guy over t h e r e .

I h a v e n ' t been. I th ink Mr. Pres iden t

The l eaks a r e , leaks a re occur r ing . There ' s

from some p lace .

SECREt=-



February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m. SECReT 17

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Ehrl ichman:

Tha t ' s r i g h t , from some p lace , bu t as to

d i sc ip l ine , I have done t h ings with regardto d i sc i p l i ne t h a t Mr. Hoover d i d n ' t dare

to do. I took on Grap, and I met him faceto f ace , and I threw him r i g h t o u t o f the

Federal Bureau of Inves t iga t ion .

Sure .

These guys know they can ' t l i e . • .


• to me l i ke they used to l i e to Hoover.

(un in t e l l i g ib l e ) . I 'm I 'm not

r ea l ly r e f e r r ing to t h a t kind o f s t u f f .

Mm hm.

Frank ly , I am r e f e r r ing to d i sc i p l i ne o f

the h ighes t s e n s i t i v i t y involving whatmay be p o l i t i c a l mat te r s .

Oh, I know.

. par t i san p o l i t i c a l mat te r s . But I ' vego t to know, fo r example, what ' s going on,uh, t h a t , uh, even , uh, now on occasion,

uh, let's suppose something on th e PentagonPapers leaks o u t , uh, l e t us suppose the r e ' sa l eak to a ce r t a in member o f the p r e s s .

I got ta have a r e l a t i onsh i p here where you

go o u t and do something and deny on a (s tack o f Bib les . ------Right .

Okay.

Right . And I unders tand .

You got ta g e t t h a t ' cause I d o n ' t haveanybody e l se . I c a n ' t h i r e some assho le

from the ou ts ide .

No. No.

The, the r e l a t i onsh i p i s a se l f - se r v i ng one

in a sense • . •



,-

NW#:36514


Gray:

Ehrlichman:

Pres ident :

Ehrlichman:

Pres ident :

Ehrlichman:

Gray:

Pres ident :

Gray:

Pres ident :

Gray:

Pres ident :

Ehrlichman:

Pres ident :

Gray:

Pres ident :

Ehrlichman:

Pres ident :

Ehrlichman:

Uh huh.

. . . and Hoover used to ca l l

Asser t .

And say, uh,here and uh

We knew fo r exam Ie l e t me t e l l

Referred

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - J Q r - n - d ~ s - o ~ - H - o - o - V - e - r ~ g - o - t - - J u s ( ~ ______ .. .

the information.

Very he lp fu l to us to know.

MIn hmm.

See what I mean?

MIn hmm.

Referred

MIn hmm.

See? That ' s the kind o f th ing t h a t we'vej u s t got ta know.

And, an d •

We l i ve in a dangerous world .

Oh, I know t ha t .

And, uh •••

That ' s th e enormously valuable pa r t o fth i s r e la t ionsh ip

Yeah.

fo r us.

Docld:31443854

SECRCT



NW#.!e!14

February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.

19

Pres ident :

Gray:

Pr es iden t :

Gray:

Pres ident :

Gray:

Pres ident :

That ' s th e kind o f th ing where you d o n ' twant to have t ha t done by F e l t o r whoever ,C=i s down the l i n e . I mean you j u s t , if - - - - - -_____you have to i den t i f y it, by , you say

Referred

Well , j u s t l ike I wa s t e l l i n g Chief(un in te l l ig ib le )

Referred

Ye s s i r .

• may be - - you it's t h a t s o r t o fth ing t h a t - - Hoover, of course , wa s a

gr ea t cops and armed robbers guy in throughth e whole e r a . He was over ly susp ic ious rac tua l ly . But t h a t helped a b i t , becauseas a r e su l t , he h a, - - he g o t us in fo rmat ion ,

which i s extremely he lp fu l , because you seethese p a s t four year s have n o t been aneasy - - we've had almost th e e n t i r ebureaucracy, including rnany in Defense who

were opposed to what we were doing inVietnam, opposed to Cambodia, opposed to

Laos , opposed to May 8th , it worked, ando f course when the whole t ime for the

December bombing, uh, we, uh, - -and inc iden ta l ly , most of the White Houses t a f f was aga ins t it. Uh, they d i d n ' t goo ut and yap about it bu t they were aga ins t

it. I unders tand t ha t . My poin t i s t h a twith the media 's aga ins t you, ' ' l i th th e

bureaucracy aga ins t you, uh, with th eprofessors , uh, with the church people andthe r e s t , l e t alone th e Congress , it's ahard .damn f igh t . Now a t th e pr e sen t t ime,

we've, uh, we've come through with t h a tbig i s sue , uh, come through r a t h e r wel l ,

and we have some a l l i e s from dif - - unexpectedsources dr iv ing the goddamned media r i g h tup the wal l . This POW ( u n i n t e l l i g i b l e )

(un in te l l ig ib le ) wel l - -Urn hmm.

L et me. t e l l you, there were t imes an-an-and

( s tu t te r ing) and, and, Lyndon Johnson to ldme th i s s a m ~ th ing, when I f e l t t h a t th e onlyr... -' w. _ _

LD 0 6 I C 1 . 3 1 4 4 3 6 ~ 4



February 16, 1973

from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.20

Pr e s id e n t :

( con t . )

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

Gray:

Pr e s id e n t :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

Gray :

Pr e s id e n t :

person in t h i s goddamned government ,,,ho

was s t and ing withme

was Edgar Hoover.He was th e only one.

Wel l , I was su re standing t h e r e with youa l l th e way th rough it.

I 'm su re o f t h a t , I 'm sure o f t h a t . Nowwhat d id I mean (unin t e l l i g i b l e ) . Now Id o n ' t mean j u s t coming in and say ing "Nowlook Mr . Pr e s id e n t y o u ' r e doin ' grea t . "

No, no.

He would o f t en do t h a t . But th e po i n t was

t h a t he wou ld break h is ass if he saw some

th ing t h a t was wrong, be ing done, if somebodywas p i s s i ng on u s , I mean, l eaks ,

Mm hmm.

••• uh, t h a t s o r t o f th ing . Not, n o t

i n t e r f e r i n g with th e r i gh t s o f the pr ess ,

n o t i n t e r f e r i n g , , , ith t he , you know, t he ,

you know a l l t h a t crap .

Righ t , r i g h t .

The t h in g i s , the th ing i s t h a t , t h a t in

your case -- you see , the d i f f i cu l ty with

having someone, who ' s a , who i s bas i ca l ly ,

as you a r e , a Nixon l o y a l i s t , and a f r i end ,

first o f a ll t h e y ' r e gonna r a i s e a l l kinds

of ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) about t h a t .

Sure , oh I know it.

Second, a Nixon l o y a l i s t and a f r iend

f ee l s g e n e r a l l y , and I ' v e found t h i s to bet r ue o f h a l f th e Cabine t - - h e ' s go t t a go ,o r bend over backwards to prove t h a t h e ' s

n e u t r a l .

Hm.

' ~ e c a n ' t have t h a t . Pub l ic ly you must dot h a t . Pub l i c l y . But , pr i va t e l y \"hat you 've

go t to do i s to do l i k e Hoover. Now, th e



February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.

21

Pr es i den t :

(cont . )

Gray:

Pr es i den t

Gray:

Pres ident :

Gray:

Pres ident :

Gray:

reason Hoover ' s r e la t ion with me was so

c lose , even c lose r than wi th Johnson, eventhough he sa w Johnson more of ten , wa s t h a t

we s ta r t ed work in th e Hiss case . He knew,t h a t , uh, he could t r u s t me , I knew Icould t r u s t him and as a r e s u l t , he to ld

me th ings t h a t , uh, l ike th i s wiretap

he to ld me about . (Uninte l l ig ib le)

Understand. My purpose in checking t h i swire tap bus iness i s n o t to pu t it out .

I d o n ' t in tend to pu t it ou t . But I damn

wel l want to know who did it. See what Imean? I want to know who th e Bureau to

use and , and I want it know, should weit, see then you may f ind t h a t whoever 'sthe gu i l t y one w i l l p u t ou t the s tory . • .

Urn hnun.

. • • and , t h a t , uh, t h a t , uh, he d id andt h a t , uh, , v i l l be use f u l . We'd l ike to

know such t h i ngs , t ha t ' s th e whole po i n t .

Not to j u s t . Of course , Johnsonshould n o t have have done t h a t .

No ques t ion about it.

Absolutely should n o t have wire tapped o r ,e i t h e r th e plane or the phones. The phoneswere done fo r su r e , we, even De Loach has

admit ted tha t . But th e planes , he deniesnow, Hoover to ld the plane , the cabin onmy p lane fo r the l a s t tw o weeks o f the

campaign, they Put it on the bas i s o f

Madame Chennaul t o r some goddamn th ing

were t apped. What the h e l l do you th ink

happened then? Every damn th ing we had - we d i d n ' t have any d iscuss ions about ,po l i t i c a l discuss ion , went to Johnson andyou kno\-, what th e h e l l he did with them,

gave 'e m to Humphrey.

Humphrey. Sure .

That kind o f a game i s a h e l l o f a game.

We could ge t , we could g e t pos i t ive evidenceo f t h a t , we could na i l Deke on tha t because

C'm su r e , from what checking I ' ve done on _-----

t h i s o t h e r th ing t h a t it came through Deke.



February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a .m.

22

Pr es i den t :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

Gray:

Pres ident :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

We j u s t \-lant to be su r e . We want to know

who d id it, you know. Well l e t me sayt h i s , the , the th e main th ing , th e mai npo i n t i s t h a t , uh, as I sa id , the uh, the ,

I th ink it's gonna be a bloody conf i rmat ion

Oh , I do, too .

I th ink , a l l r i g h t , I th ink , uh, \-le j u s twanted you to know t h a t if, if you do go

through it, you 've go t to be prepared to

take the hea t and g e t bloodied up. But i fyou do go through a bloody one, you do go

through a bloody conf i rmat ion let's remerrber

t h a t you ' r e probably going to be in probablyfo r j u s t four year s .

Tha t ' s r i g h t .

And they ' r e gonna throw you ou t and thenlet's do some good fo r th e country . As

you know, I would never ask the Direc to r

o f the Bureau to do anything t h a t wa s

wrong, I mean, b u t I am ce r ta in ly goingto have to ask the Di rec tor of the Bureaua t t imes to do th ings t h a t are going to

pro te c t the secu r i ty of t h i s count ry • •

No problem. (. • • t h i s country , t h i s , th i s bureaucracy,Pa t , you know t h i s , you known th i s Radfordone , too , it's cra\-ll ing with , Pa t , a tb e s t , a t b e s t un loya l people and a t wors t

t r easonab le people .

Treasonable people .

We have go t to g e t them, break them.

Right , I knm-l t h a t . I agree .

The wa y to g e t them i s through you. See?

I agree . I have no problems \ - l i th t h a t .

\'le have to pick up peop le , some peopleTha t ' s the pr i ce o f - -



. -- - ~ - ~

February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.

23

Gray:

Pres ident :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

I would l ike to .

would have s tuckI wish the one on Witten

the in fo rmant.

Witten - - Oh, Chr i s t , t h a t , I 'm not con-cerned .

Small po t a t oes .

It isn't the p ress t h a t bothers me, it's

th e people with in the bureaucracy t h a t

bother me. Those are the ones tha t the r e ' sno excuse fo r l eaks , r igh t? So, we, Ith ink , I th ink , under the c i rcumstancest h a t , uh, it seems to me j u s t , I ' ve aSkec(these quest ions only to be the d e v i l ' s ' - - - - - - - -

advocate , t h i s morning, uh, I th ink t h a t ,uh, if you, you got ta make the dec is ion ,

if you 've go t th e hea l th , if you've go t the

uh, t he , the , uh, des i r e , uh, and also if

you can , i f you f ee l t h a t you can have a ,

th e kind o f a r e l a t i onsh ip t h a t we had wi th

Hoover, which, o f course , we can ' t , weshou l dn ' t have had up to th i s poin t .

No.

And you c a n ' t have it (unin te l l ig ib le )

Well , except , from th e moment you ' r e

nomina te d , I th ink you 've got ta s t a r tc r ack i n ' th e \"hip, having in mind the (

f ac t , having in mind th e f ac t t h a t , uh, - - - - - -- - - -.....

always, th a t you d o n ' t \vant c rack anywhips t h a t are gonna force some bas tard

to go o u t and t e s t i f y aga i ns t your nomination .

.Tha t ' s r i g h t . Tha t ' s the th ing .

So you've go t t a be c a refu l . But the momentyou ' r e confirmed then I th ink we've got to

have the kind o f J; :elat ionship we had \"ithHoover. We had, I , on th e other hand, we

had , we knew everyth ing because I kne\"everybody and they were suppor t ing me.

But then I th ink we 'v e got to do t h a t ,you 've go t to \

·mtcheverything

aroundth e

wor ld , in your m"n shop , watch the p a p e r ~ and see (un in t e l l i g ib l e ) and when you th lnk

something 's n o t r igh t oh , fo r example, fo rChr i s t ' s sake , you can t a i l people , you know,

from t ime to t ime .



· ..

NW#:36514

Feqruary 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.

24

Gray:

Pr es iden t :

Gray:

Pr es iden t :

Gray:

Pr es iden t :

Gray:

Pr es iden t :

Gray:

Pr es iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Sure. Sure .

Suppose \'Ie' ve got some · j ackass i n t he

Sta te Department ~ a s s i s t a n t to the

Secre ta ry as we know i s a little of f , soyou t a i l him.

Sure, we can launch an - -

Righ t . You t a i l hi m because you ' r e lookingfo r t h e ' Referred I r igh t?

Because you ' r e doing it fo r h i s p ro tec t ion .

That ' s r igh t .

That ' s th e way Hoover did it.

Sure , an d those th ings can be done, canbe done eas i ly and, uh, can be doneper fec t ly on th e record , j u s t l i ke t h i sth ing was done here on •

Well , we th ink o f , uh, I th ink uh, th ink

uh, I ' ve t a lked , uh, I ' ve , we've had th e

Cour t keep t h i s very c lose ly he ld , a majorinvestment in it, John, uh, we know t h a tthe bloody uh, l o n e of the reasons , I 'dsay, as fa r as the Watergate, I 'd r a the r

throw it a l l out t he r e an d n o t be defens ive .

The other s ide o f the coin i s , we d o n ' t

qu i te do t h i s th ing (un in te l l ig ib le ) they ' r e

gonna c a l l you in onit .

That ' s r igh t . Sure .

I f , persona l , h o t t e r an d h o t t e r temper-Th e Ervin Committee w i l l c a l l you in .

Sure .

Uh, so , uh, so t ha t ' s the f ee l ing we have.Now the ques t ion i s , i s to I 'guess you andJ o h n ' l l work t h a t out , if, as to how andwhen the announcement should be made.

Yeah.

Docld:31443854

err " .. '

(



February 16 , 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m.

25

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:

Gray:

How're your r e l a t i ons with East land?

Very good. And was - -

I s he fo r you?

Very good, yes , I 'm pos i t i ve o f t ha t .

Yeah. Tha t ' s very impor tant . Shouldwho e l se should be informed? Hruska, a tl e a s t , Hruska?

Well we've h a v e n ' t to ld th e AttorneyGeneral y e t .

(Laughter)

Well h e l l the Attorney General , th e

Attorney General w i l l suppor t t ha t .

There ' s no quest ion about t h a t .Yes.

Well , w e l l , l e t us t a lk to him.

We, I th ink we can g e t most of th e clearances

uh, uh, I d o n ' t knmV' where East land i s a tthe moment.

Do you want me to t e l l him, e r P a t , do youwant me to tell the Attorney General?

I th ink t h a t ' d be good.

I'll tell him today .

A ll r i g h t .

So then what , when w i l l we announce though,I want to g e t it done - - what do you meanc learances?

Well , j u s t t h i s idea of contact ing East land

and uh, uh H r u s k a . . and uh, uh, I d o n ' t

know who e lse ge t s wel l ( u n in t e l l i g ib l e ) I

imagine they 'd be the only two.

That 'd be ( u n in t e l l i g ib l e )



· -. ...

February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a .m.

26

Ehr l ichman:

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

Ehr l ichman:

Pr es i den t :

Ehr l ichman:

Pr es i den t :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

Gray:

Pr es i den t :

( u n i n t e l l i g i b le ) the Appropr i a t ions

Subcommittee , uh.

Probably John Rooney's people and the

Senate s ide , too .

Well , why d o n ' t you Kle ind iens t w i l lbe coming to the Cabine t meet ing , could

you, and uh, could you and P a t meet now

and work o u t t h a t th ing?

Sure .

Because I want , time i s o f the essence .

I 'd l i ke to g e t t h i s done l i ke by t oday .

A ll r i g h t . Yeah.

We've go t to move (un in t e l l i g ib l e ) t h i smot ion ' s gonna l eak . This daron Gray ' s aleak e r . (Laughs)

Yes I am, Mr. Pr es i den t .

(Laughs )(Uninte l l ig ib le)

Nixon l o y a l i s t . (un in t e l l i g ib l e )

You're goddamn r i g h t I am.

Congra tu la t ions .



2/25/73

14:30 p hone

Talk ed to Ehr l i chman r e Times ' l a t e s t th ing on FBI s t u f f

Had names o f Brandon and Saf i r e

Ehrl ichman to ld Zieg le r j u s t s tonewal l it

Everything handled by Dean, Kle ind iens t , e tc .

Ehrl ichman and I s tay ou t o f it



~II



DRAFT

TRANSCRIPT OF A RECORDING OF A t1EETING

B E T w ~ E N THE PRESIDENT AND JOHN DEAN ON

FEBRUA..-qy 2 7 , 1 9 7 3 ,

FROM 3 :55 TO 4 :20 P . !1 .

SECR[T

0 \\ •-/

-



.! •

-I " .

TRA1JSCRIPT OF A RSCORDIl;G OF' _ ~ _ r-:2:::TmGBETHS:::::: TEE PRESID2lJT AND JO:i:: DE.".!: o;·!

F E B ~ U A R Y 27, 1973, ~ R O ~ 3 : 55 TO ~ : 2 0 ? ~ .

P R E S I D E ; ~ T :

DEAlJ:

P R E S I D E ~ :

DEAN :

PRESID:C:NT :

DEAN :

PRESIDS!';T:

DEAH:

E S I D ; : ; :

DEAN:

PRESIDEN T:

DEAN:

Good a f te rnoon , John, h o ~ a re you?

Pret ty good. '

I , uh, discarded s o ~ e ( u n ~ n t e l l i G i b 1 e ) won l t i n t e ~ r u p t us ( u n i n ~ e l l i g i b l e ) ~ h , uh, d id you g et your t a lk with K l e i n d ~ q n s t ye t?

I j u s t .had a good t a lk with him.

Yeah, f ine . Have you got him, .uh,pos i t ioned p roper ly , the uh- -

I th in k , I t h ink he i s .

( Uni n t e l l i g i b l e ) p r o p e ~ a h , has he t a1ke i

ye t to B a l ~ e r ?

N0 he hasn l t, he, uh, he cal l ed Sam Ervina n d of fe red to corne v i s i t with both he andBaker. And , uh , t h a t was done l a s t ~ e e k . Uh , h uh.

Bu t he t h o u ~ h t t h a t t iming would be bad to

c a ll Baker p r i o r to t l le j o ~ n t mee t in g . So

h e say s a f t e r I have t ha t j o i n t m e e t i ~ g , 1111 s t a r t work ing my r e l a t i onsh ip with

Baker .

We ll, Baker l e f t with me t h a t he wasgo in g t o, going to se t up a j o i n t mee'c.ing"l'le 11 , any-.·:ay ( u n i n t e l l i g i b l e ) . I see . SoKl e i nd i ens t has t a lked to , u ~ , uh , h eh as t a lked to Ervin and E r v i ~ sa id - -

. (un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) .

Er v i n has l e f t it d2.nglinp; and sa id , " 1 11 1b e ba ck in touch I'lit)-) yo u . 11 Uh , I t hink

wh a t , what d i s t u r bs me a l ittle b i t aboutBaker ~ a s h is move to pu t h is own man 1n asmi nor i ty counse l , so quickly , without ~ ~ y c on s u l ta t ion as he had p romised consu: t a t ion .fi nd I ' m to ld t h i s r.:<.:.n may 'ne a d isa s tec

h imse l f , the mincc ' i ty c o u n ~ ' 0 l . ( . .. ,.- .. ." .. ) '. ., " .'

' "> i = ( I . ~ I _ i

t ... J. !'-- \.,.i L \ b .. l



r -(

FEBRUARY ~ 7 , 1973, F R O ~ 3:55 TO ~ : 2 0 P . M. 2

rHESIDEliT:

DEAH :

PRESIDEnT: '

Dio:AH:

PRESIDEIlT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT :

DEAN :

PRESIDENT:

He i s ? What do you m e a ~ to , i s he--?

Well a , we] l I can ' t knock he ' s30 , h e ' s 30 yea!.·s o f aGe, he doesn r t lmo;·,ra th ing about ~ 3 u h i n G t o n . Yeah.

So w e ' l l have t o - -

Baker , Baker says t ha t he puts the blameon the \ ' lhite HousC!. He says , " ; : l t , c h , : ? : ; ~ a c a l i t s h i s nalEe. K o r o l o ; o s c a l l c ci hiT:' 2 ~ d 5ubgest e dsomebody e l se , th a t was a s r e a ~ ~ i s t 2 . k eCourse I didn 't know any th ing about t h a t ~ ~ p p a r e n .. .

Well Baker a p ~ a ~ n t l y i s qu i te open in h is

f e l i c i ty I \'lClnt to counsel '· . 'ith you all, andI d o n ' t want to move u n t i l I ' ve to ld you whatI 'm going to do, and then he d id j u s t thel · t ; V t ' . l ~ t : : ' 3 u . i . ~ \ ':0 . :;' l ; u i . . " ; ~ ( ; · 1 . 4 ~ : (J:l.C, ~ ~ h ~ . .lC ~ 1 ( ; ' wanted a ~ e e t i n g with you . Uh, secondly:

th a t , uh, he sugges ted Kle ind iens t as aconduit ...

Th a t ' s cor r ec t .

• . . and the re i s hope, I th ink t h a t , uh , he may

- t ry t o keep an eye on t h i s t h ing and no t l e tit g e t in to a t o t a l c i r cus up t h e r e .

Who? Bake r .

Baker, Baker mig h t .

We l l t h a t ' s whClt h e ' i n d i c a t e d , he i n d i c a t e d b u t

o f cou r s e , o f c ourse wi th the regard to h i s ,uh, s i t u a t i o n , h is pos i t i on though, and with

r egard to Kle ind iens t ' s pos i t i on , I , uh, I shookKlein d i ens t u p 2. b i t b u t (un i n t c l l i t i b l e ) r ea l lyi s the , i s the fel low who's ~ o i n ~ to r e t h ~ r t mo s t ou t o f t h i s ( u n i n t e l l i ~ i b l e ) 10 M i t c h e l l .Said o the rs are: f,onna ge t hu r t too , bu t I ~ i t c h e l l i s , ah , the r e a l problem 1s whether o r not

Mi t c h e l l wil l - -u l l , ~ ~ c t hi m on p e r ~ } u r y

).,,\ I _ J . < . _ •••

.- " {

, ! l' . " .... "



FEBRUARY 27. 1973, FROM 3:55 4:20 P . ~ . 3

DEAN:

P R E S I D E ~ :

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDEr!T :

-DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

Hum.

I said now lock, ah, p c r j u ~ y ¥2ry damnhard thing to prove too, f o r ~ ~ ~ ~ c l y . B ~ t , uh, if you, un ( u ~ i n t e 1 I i g i ~ 1 ~ ) keep f r o ~ poppin' o r ~ I sa id , well , I , I , I ta lked(unin tel1i[!;ible) clid ya eyer t a l i ~ to I·iitcr;e:!..:!.about t h i s . Never has.

No.

He says he has never ta lked to him.go into the Mexican par t of it withor did you get . . .

Hell , I .... . . in to any substance a t al l? I

; Did

i ' ~ l e i n c . ~ e n s t

I 've always, I 've a l w a y ~ braced Kleindienstin the past about , you lmo:'!, the pO,tentialimpl icat ions of what th i s whcle inves t igat i snthe :bureau c O : ! l - t u ( ; ~ e d ; \,:IW_l- l;he u . .::>. Hl- l -u:ci ' l2:, ' : : ,

Office was doing . . .

That ' s r ight .

• .• what the t r i a l meant . . .

That ' s r igh t .

... 1 th ink th i s could come to haunt: . .

That ' s r ight .

I f it gets out of hand, I don ' t want to getinto a lo t of spec i f i cs .

Yeah.

I , a t . t h i s l a s t meetin&I jus t sa t with h i ~ and said Dick, I sa id , '-' I don ' t th ink I ou:::;:-:,tto br i e f you on everything I know . I don ' tth ink . . .

That ' s r igh t .

• .• t h a t ' s the way to proceed .you going down the wrong t rack ,

to have to t e l l you why."

But i f I seeI ' m [,;oin[,;;



FEDRUt.HY 27, 19'73, ~ c n O : · 1 3:55 ':::'0 11:20 P.f·i.

PRESIDEl1T:

DEAN:

PRESIDr:;I ·TT :

DEAN :

PRESIDEWi' :

DEAN:

PReSIDENT:

DEAN:

Urn h u ~ . Good, Good. What dld he ~ a y ? He Gaid, " I agree, tha t ' s the ";ay i t s ; ~ , · . . . : l c i stand."

"On the Executive Privi lege O i l e , I '·lO rk,,_:. -..-::..th,uh, ta lked to John Ehrlichmqn a l i t t l e ~ ~ ~ d e c i c i ~ d th a t the l aGt p2.r2f,;:-'aph, d ~ i c h , uh, sh ·".:::":: 8emodified 1)0 t h 2 . ~ i t covers I ' lh2. t I lo.j.;:;h-: : ~ = - - : e tosay if I ~ e r e a s ~ e d a t a p r e ~ s c o n f e r e ~ : 5 , he 'l lindic ate what it, but in , in a nut she! : , ~ h , rath er than simply , f la t ly say tha t I t ~ : : . . ~ % t ha twhat we should say i s uh, thut uh, that ~ ~ , tha tthe uh, that ~ e ~ b e r s of the r r e s i d ~ n t s t a f f I

wi l l not appear before a formal s e 3 s i o ~ ~ : th e

COP.',,1lission., cOJ.1o::ittees. HOI'lever, u n c . e ~ ' :::-':)per,

appropr ia te cirC:U:-:2st2nces that uh,j _ n f C : - : - : - l ~ l

discu ss ions , or so for th , can be c o n d ~ 2 : ~ ~ toobt ain information an d so for th and so : ~ - appropr ia te , I Viant, ' I t e l l you ;',hat yc : \ r ~ , what we're up aga ins t , r igh t he re ' s , u ~ . Kleindienst , K l e i n d i c ~ s t has indicated ~ ~ , "r ' don: t l(!J'o','! \ · ' ! h ~ t ; i ; e I " ll e ciic1 to you , t n = - ~ ' l L ~ } he f e l t that t h ~ b a ~ k - u p posi t ion here ~ ~ c ~ l d bean execut ive sessioi'! of the CO;:;lnit'cee. . ~ _ ; : 8 . I 'sa id , IIl:;e l l , t hQt '::; a be l l -of 2. diffic'..:::"t thingthe) fo r the me". 11 I sa id , H I think t i : : . ' ~ :;ne

pOSit ion should be one of a , that our p=si t io"should be on e of a , a, a solution. . T h a ~ youcan' t--\';ri t· t en in terl'oo;a to r ie s ( \lnin. te 12.::.. ;::"s Ie )which i s unl ike ly , of the two c o n ~ i t t e e - - I , uh,

. the, the ranking cO:-:2mittee m e m b ~ r s and : ~ e counsel , QuestioninF, an y T:lember of the : : , i - : e House s t a f f , you know, under proper , y o ~ k ~ o w , r es t r ic t ions . . .

Urn hum.

... and so for th and so on . I pitt t ha t to 3 a l « ~ r as ,·;ell and, uh, u n i n t e l l i g i b l l ~ ) said 3" ' :' :er ,Baker probably, uh, probably w ~ n t s to fo rthe sane reason tha t Ervin docs, becaUSe thepublic'i .ty and so fort l l , ;olants to haul c.:;':i : ' ti1eWhite House s t a f f and .. .Urn.

... put them in the glare of thos e l i gh t s .

True .



' .e ' . .._

FEBRUARY 27 , 1973 . FROM 3: 55 TO 4:20 r.M. 5

: . PIIESIDEHT:

DEAN:,

PRESIDEHT:

DEAN:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT :

DEAN:

PRESIDENT :

DEAN :

PRESIDENT :

DEAN:

Uh , t h a t we cannot have . That we cannot h ~ ~ eOn th e o t h e r hand, n n o ~ have a ston0W 2 l1 ,

u h , so t ha t it a;:Jpears t h a t \·;e ' re n o t letti:-_I;them. And so I t h ink go t to be in i

· pos i t ion to , d id ya d i sc u s s t .his '- lith iGeir!':lie!·l s t ,

as to what the Dos i t ion ':!culd be on t h a t p o in t?That , I t h i n ~ , ~ c h ~ i s the impor tan t t h i n ~ t h a tKle ind iens t has g o t t a s tand God damn f i rm on.

I d id , I t a lked to Die:: a.bout t ha t . I sa id

th a t , uh , "Che, the!'e ' s a s tatemel1t for thco: :dng.

I d o n ' t YJ10W th e t l r: , ing on it . "

Yeah.

Th e Depar tment w i l l i s sue . I sa id t h a t , it ' s

fo r tuna te th ec o ~ t e x t it 's

coming o u t in , becauseCla rk Mollenhof f s o l i c i t e d th e s ta tement in ap re ss inqu i ry t h a t ' s comins ou t in unre la ted

cont e x t and no t r e l a t e d to Waterga te p e r se .

And so that'll be ou t soon and th a t w il l d e f i n e

wha t t he ou te r pe r imete r s a re . It a l so g i v e s - -

Have Kle ind iens t s a y - th a t nobody from th e WhiteHouse s t a f f w i l l t e s t i f y befo re a c ommi t tee .


Of cour se , t h a t d o e s n ' t he lp much a t all.

Wel l , und e r normal c i r c u m s t a n c e s , if th e y ' r e--

. . . i f they were n o r n a l .

Th a t ' s t h e , th e re ' s li ttle . uh , s l i de in t he r e .

And th e n wha t , in a p r a 6 t i c a l m a t t e r I to ld ' ernwoul d probably happen, would b e much l ike th e

F l anigan s i tu a t ion where t h e r e ' s an e x c h a n ~ e andth e , the i s sues become very narrow a s to th e

i n format i on t h a t ' s s ought .

. ~ , . . ~ .. ....

( ...f ~ ~ , . ' ~ ...



. ,..

FEBRUARY 2t, 1973, FRon 3:55 TO 4:20 P . ~ . 6

P R E S I D E I ~ T :

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDEnT :

DEAH:

PRESIDEnT :

DEAN:

PRESIDEl'!T:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT :

DEAN:

PRESIDENT :

DEAN:

'<Jell, you \'lOrked "l i th, uh, if ~ . ' o u ' d t a l l : e d toJohn Ehr l i chnan , you ~ o r k c d a t r ev i s i ng t ha t

l a s t para;.::;rap!:l.

i' le 've done t h a t .

Oh, you 've a l ready worked with him on t h a t .

Urn hum.

And, uh, wel l , a f t e r I see h i s , uh, t h i sCa r d i na l Midi (phone t i c ) t ake ce abou t , 'I th ink f i ve , we ought to g e t r id o f h i ~ Inabout , ah , f i f t e en or twenty r i n u t e s . Youmight br ing it down and , un, you ' ve go t it

i ' l r i t ten al ready?

Yes, s i r .

Then l e t me tal(e a look a t it aga in .

Uh huh.

And w e ' l l a p p ~ o v e th e s t a t emen t , I don ' t wantto put it out r i g h t now becuase I , I , j u s tdepends (un in te l l ig ib2 . s ) I decide to do on t he ,

d o on t h e , the. press th ing .

I t ' d probably be e a s i e r no t to have t hose

ques t ions in your press conference per se .

I t I t would p r e f e r , t ha t ' s what I want to do, i sto have th i s s t a t e ~ e n t come a f t e r th e press

c onference, to say , if they ask anything aboutit , t h a t " I ' ve cover-ed t h a t in a s ta te r . en t t h a twi l l be i s sued tomorrow on Execut ive Pr iv i l ege .

It' s ~ e r y compl ica ted ( u n i n t e l ~ i g i b l e t h a t ' swh a t I .had in mind . I ' d r a t h e r no t be ques t ioned ont he stater .1ent .

Mol l enhoff h imse l f will deba te you r i g h t t he r e

on the s u b j e c t .

Ri gh t . So I ' ll say I 'm c o v e r in c - -

And I d id t a lk to Mollenhoff yes te rday a t , uh,gOf,epa ' reques t .

RoM.''i.



,. EBRUARY ?r, 197:1, FRO:·! 3:55 TO 1::20 P .i·1.

PRESID::::n'l':

DEAN :

PRESIDEnT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDEW.L':

DEAN:PRESIDEW!':

. . . (unin t e l l ig ib le ) I,ant to 100Y.: in 1 ; h ~ cas=.

Tell h i ~ I want to look in the case ~ n d I tadan extended discL:ssion ": i tr hin on t ~ , ' , Execut.ive I ' r ivl lef0 quest ion. 0::- cou":,:: , r" ,

dif fers sOTEel·,ha t fro:;; ,,'bere "Ie ' re cc:r. LnG 0<':,but he a G ~ e e s that cer ta in lv the P r e ~ l r l e n t ~ a s the lega l au thor i ty to do t ~ 2 t and h0 aGreesalso that i t t s , uh, i t ' s - -

Well, in h is case , I mean what was t a l k ~ ~about?

Hell , he says, he t.hinks th2.t a l l \ ' : h l ~ ; e Ec·,.;.::;es t a f f should be ready to run up to th e Hil l and

t e s t i fy and he asked ...

(Uninte l l ig ib le ) .

. . as to what they ' re doing and it's a rare~ : : c e p t i ~ : : . . : : ~ - = ~ t ~ · : P ~ t . ? s i d - = : ! t "i n1 r 0 1'r .. s t : h ~ pr iv i le ge . I sa id , flClarv., that ' s f . C ~ to ':)5

the other way a r o u ~ d The s t a f f can ' t o P 0 ~ a t e i f th ey 're going to be Queried on every bi ' :

of cOJTtITlut:ication they :1ad '.-lith the Pr<:::side:;':; . 11

That 's r iGht .

Hansfield, h i ~ s e l f , Nr. President, has reC0c;nizedt ha t com,-, '.);ticaticr.s betv.'een you alld your s':::=.:::f

are protec ted . He said th i s in a policy s t a t e ment befo re they i ssued th i s reso lu t ion un '::hereon, uh, having confirmable ind iv idua ls a g ~ e e they'd t es t i fy before they are confir::!ed.

(Pause )

Hell . .•

I 'm- -

. . . as fo r confirm able individu a ls are c o ~ c c ~ n c d ) th ey ' re a l l a v a i l a b l ~ for te3timony though .

That ' s r iGht . I t ' s no problem there .

I t ' s no problem there .

'There 's not a Ci veO'·.·I2.y by any me::'l);, on th",-t .

i" .

• !



r

FEBRUARY 21, 1973, FROM 3:55 TO : 2 0 8

PRESIDt:HT:

DEAN :

PRESIDENT :

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN :

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DE AN:

They, o f cour se , w i l ~ uh, they , they, they , Iguess , we , we wouJd not n o r ~ a l l y claimExecut iv e Pr iv i l ege f o ~ Cabinet of f ic e rs ~ o u l d .we?

Uh, no s i r . OnlY, only if in , say th e r e ~ e ins tances where we h a ~ e a l reedy , wh e re t ~ e y ' r e going fo r i n f o r ~ a t i o n which should be p r o ~ e c t e d . I nves t i ga t i ve file::: , uh, C l E ~ s s i f i e d ! ' 1 a t e r i a ~ 0 : '

say , a id progr2:-r.s or sc:::etlling , ,·:l1e:1 "i 8 d id it

in the l as t - - IRS f i l e s . Those are th e ins tanc9s

in which we ' ve done it.

Yeah.

And t hey ' r e qu i t e , uh, t r e d i t i o n a l and, end

ahouldb e

expected by the Congress whent ~ e y

goa f t e r informat ion l i ke t h a t .

I th ink , I th ink Ken t over to Kle ind iens t , I

silid ju s t to ShOI" you ho1'! the i·;orn t u r ns ~ e r ' e , wnat we went through in the H1SS cesc . ihe r e ,we were, i nves t iga t in g, no t , uh, espionage by

a po l i t i c a l , what o ~ e p o l i t i c a l a n i z a t ~ o n aga i ns t another , but a charge of esp ionase

aga i ns t the United Sta t e s America, w ~ i c h wasa 'h e ll of a lo t more ser ious . And in t h a t ca se ,

the Department of ' J u s t i c e , the Hhit e HOUS 2 , t l ~ o FBI t o t a l ly s ton ewa l l ed th e committ ee . The FBIwould no t fu rn ish Eny information and here the

FBI had a chance to furn i sh information to t h i s

committee.

Yes .

That ' s according to Gray, righ t ?

Righ t .

A ll r i g h t . Th i Department o f Jds t i ce r efu sedto give us any informat ion a t a l l and o f c o u r ~ e the Whit e House used Execut ive Pr iv i l ege andthe p ress was a l l on t he i r s ide . You see tha t

"ras . . .

That ' s r i g h t .

. ,



FEBHUARY 27. J97.L._ 1"]\01-' 3:55 TO 11:20 :).:,: __ 9

PRESIDENT :

DEP.N:

PRESIDENT :

Di'::AJr:

PHESIDEHT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

T'"\""",,,,"."r ..'JJj l"1 . . l . ' I .

PRESIDENT :

DEAN:

.PRESIDENT :

DEAN:

P'RESIDENT :

DEAN :

PRESIDENT :

DEAN:

. . . tha t ";28 e , t ha t ! s , SU2'e it ' s ;d lO::;e 0;': i t ~ ,b-einr:; gored . 1:0',: h!:re you got so-ca l ledcspionClge Involvi!lt; 2. p ' . ) J . ~ . t : i c 3 . 1 on::a!li%2',::"0::and, uh, so now ( u n i ~ t e l l i G i b l eWe l l , you k ~ o w I ' ve been . . .

(Un in te l l i g ib l e ) .

. . . an d in , in , uh, dOi!lC BOHle checkinG'

I to ld Dick a u ~ i n t e l l i G ~ b l e ) . That ' s W h 2 ~ our Democ::'2tic f r iends c:id \'Ihen '-ie Here try:::':--.,;to ge t information.

Lyhdon Joh!lson, uh , was probably the, uh,

greates t 2buser of the P3l , I 'm told by peopl e ,some of the old hands o ~ e r there .

He us ed it for e v e r y t h i ~ ;~ ! ; .. -

But didn ' t he use i t against the press?

He . . .

That 's ah--

. . . it against the press , he used it

against his own par ty , uh , back in ' 64 when t ~ e Wa l t e r Jenkins thing broke, uh, he had highof f i c i a l s of the FBI out t r y i n ~ to s t r o n g - a r ~ a docto r to sa y tha t th:::'s m2n had a bra intumor, uh, Walter Jenki!ls , he also ,th en , tu r !led hi s , the FBI loose on the G o l d ~ a ~ e r s ta f f , uh , th is sor t of thing i s s t a r t ing tose ep . . •

, Uh, '-/ho' kn 01'1 S ?

. . • out no'..,.(

Is it ge t t in g out?

Uh, I 'm sorry. (Unint e l l ig ib le ) .

:



..,,;\, :C ._ .

FEBRUARY 27, 1973, FROH 3:55 '1'0 4:20 P.M. 10

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

•EAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

• PRESIDEN'f:

DEAN:

', .-. .........

:36514

But you, o f course , know th e i nc iden t o f h i s , uh,( un in t e l l i g ib l e ) t he , the famous i nc iden t of th e

bugging o f our plane • • •

T ha t ' s r i g h t .

which, uh, maybe-- , they r e a l l y knm.,r i s t r u e . And

you know th e ins tances t h a t ·they t a l k about , aboutt he , uh, about our bugging , th e FB I s tu f f , bel ieve

me, I know exact ly what thos e \·rere .... J

Referred

Urn hum. Now t h e y ' r e so- -

And t h en , o f course , the other th ings i nvolved l eaks

o u t o f th e NSC, where vIe, they bugged Haig , Lake,o r Halper in , I mean. But t h a t was a l l .


We were as l imi ted as h e l l , I mean Hoover, goodGod, we could have used him fo rev e r . H e ' s , h e ' s - b u t Johnson had j u s t apparen t ly , j u s t uscd them a l lth e t ime fo r t h i s so r t o f t h i n g .

T ha t ' s what I 'm l e a rn i n g .

t h i s - - There ' s more and more o f

i

I o w . . - . , ~ r

III

.,

r

I~ ~ ~ ~ S ~ t ~ ~ ~ " ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ from th e FB I i s t r y ing to P C ~ = _ . J "

iGod, I thought , I wish I knew, Mr . Pr es iden t , uh.

You d o n ' t bel ieve it's a - -

I ' v e heard t h e r e ' r e , t h e r e ' r e s ev e ra l names t h a t a re

bantered <lround. I , I t r i ed fo r example , to t rack the < ! ~

You d o n ' t th ink it's Sul l ivan?G

s.::::::N, no, I , I confronted Su l l i v an , as a mat ter o f f a c t , ~ - - 1 r i g h t a f t e r t h i s , I sa id , " B i l l , " I sa id , uh, I

!r:

Docld:31443854



•

'. ",

FEBRUARY 27, 1973, FROM 3:55 TO 4:20 P.M. 11

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PP-ESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PP-ESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDEN'£ :

PRESIDENT:

ca l l ed him in to my o f f i c e , I sa id , " I want ·to tell

yo u \"h a t 'l'ime Nagazine sa id t hey have . " His r eu c

t i on was n ot t h a t o f a man who has leaked somethinaUh--

Yeah.

And then he he lped .

(Unin te l l ig ib le)

He t o ld me, he sa id , " I f t h i s ever comes down t.oth e very s h o r t s t r okes , " he sa id , "As f a r as I 'm

concerned th i s was Hoover and Sul l ivan . No on e e l s e .

And I 'm ready to s tand fon lard and t ake i ·t a t t h a t . "I s a i d , "Well, I d o n ' t th ink it's ever going to bet h a t because , uh- -

Well , what , why would it be Hoover and Su l l i v an , d idHoover o rd e r him to do i t ?

Hoover ordered him to do it.

In o r d e r to ah--

They d id t h i s - - so he could say I could c i t e examplesch ap te r and verse o f Hoover t e l l i n g me to do th ingsl ike t h i s . f

Now Sul l ivan knows t h a t t h e i r , it was t e r r i b l ~ ~ - - - - - - - ~ - - ~ l imi ted - - it was l imi t ed .


Referred


lm d t h a t I must say , I th ink \ ' fe did r eq u es t though ,d id we ~ ~ y f ind ou t the l e ak s , and so Hoover goesand, uh, bugs people .

Well , I , I th ink . .

That ' s the way to dO......1. L. •

• DEAN: .• • th e way it's postured now, uh, we can s tunewal lit, ah , Gray can go up there in h is confi rma t ionhear ings and h e ' s no t gonna have to bother with it,

because they 'd accused him in th e a r t i c l e of being ,s i t t i n g on th e top o f th e bugs .

rRESIDENT: Yeah.

:36514 Docld:31443854



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........

FEBRUARY 27 J J.973, FROM 3:55 TO : 2 0 P.M . 12

DEAN:

PRESIDEH'f :

DEAH:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEM::

PRRSTDENT:

DEAH:

PRESIDENT:

DEAH:

PRESIDEN'l':

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAH:

... it "Tas th ere once he caRe in , ,·rhj. ·ch i s notfactual .

Well , ther e weren ' t any.

T h e r ~ were none there when he carne in .

Well, three years ega t ha t th i s happened ...

That ' s r ight .

... and there hasn ' t been a God damned ti;.j.nr,s in ce.

That ' s cor rec t .

Tha t ' s cor rec t .

A n o t h e r t h i n ~ vo u can say. too. John.the fact that a l l th i s had to do with the war ...

I }cn Oi 'l .

... and now the war i s over.

No'll--Now Johnson, on the other hand, went bugging

hi s pol i t i ca l . opponents, and every son-or-a ,everything you can i sag ine . W e ' ~ e been , t h a t ' sthe problem, we're get t ing a r ea l burn rap, aren 't

we?

We ce r t - - , we are get t ing a t e r r ib le rap, ah- -

You stop to think ' of, we got r id , we Got ~ i d of the Army bu gs , ,·;e g o t , you lcnOl'.' t ha t Arny all ,

espionage busin ess , i n t e l l i ~ ~ n c e bUSiness,we got , you remember tha t?

Tha t ' s r igh t .

Ull, "ie'vc l inl i t ed :;he FB I thinr:s to nat iona lsecur i ty bugs , to vnry , ver y cer ta in few,probably to o few.

\'l e ' re , He ' r e n O ':I ( u n i n t e J . l i ; ~ l b l c ) .

. ..--



Pf:.ESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DE Z\N:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAi'I:

PRBSIDENT:

DEAN;

PRESIDENT:

DE.l\N:

PRESIDENT:

NW#:36514

13

Bu't somebody t s gonna ge t a shocl;: on e c1ay, and they t 11

\vonder ,,,hy we d i d n ' t bu g 'em, huh?

T ha t ' s r igh t . We a re ge t t i ng a bad rap.

Well , fo r example •

' l 'he f a c t i s - -

• as you lmm'l, as you knmv, Hoover d id bugN ar t i n , Har t in Luther King.

T ha t ' s r i g h t , I was aware o f t h a t a l so .

Well , Chr i s t yes , Hoover used to tell us about whath i s , ' ' 'hat a , a moral ly depraved sone - of - a - b i t ch hewas -- And Johnson probably ordered hi m to do it,

no w let's face it.

Urn hum.

So, ah , I don ' t , w el l you c a n ' t blame Hoover. I 'm sure

he d i d n ' t do it unless , ah , Johnson asked him t o ,bu t Johnson vlaS t h a t kind of a man, he used th e FBIa s h is own pr iva t e p a t r o l , b u t God, l"e 've been asc a r e f u l , I ' v e , I 've t a lked to Hoover any number o f t imes

b u t we've never ordered anything l i ke t h a t . But he'll

come in with h is little t h ings .

Referred

Johnson, ah • • •

Huh? '

Johnson, used the FB I to cover t h e , ah , NewJersey convent ion before he dropped o u t , o f f i c i a l l y ,he had a l l the delegates - -

He did?

T ha t ' s r igh t , which i s kind o f f a n t a s t i c .

Sul l ivan knows th i s ?



FEhRUARY 2? 1973. FROM 3 :5 5 TO 4 :20 14------

DEAlJ:

·PRESIDEwr:

DEA N:

P R E S I D S ~ ; T :

DEAH:

PRESIDSWl' :

DEAN:

P R E S I m : ~ ; T :

DEAN:

PRESIDEj·;'l' :

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDEI':'l' :

DEAN:

P R E S I D ; : : ; ~ T :

DEJ\.N:

PRESIDS;·)'=':

Urn hum, Sul l ivan 1s a t h - o f - k n o w l e d a ~ d th e ~ o r e I , you k n ~ w , s o r t o f ~ c n e r a l l y cha tw1th hir.1 about th e se r):'c .blcms, the more i t .

comes ou t he ' s th e ~ a n t h a t can al so do cument--

Why d id H o o v e ~ have a f i gh t with hin? It's ah e l l o f a mist ake fo r f io;ver to do t h a t .Sul l i v a n knows too ~ u c h . Th a t ' s r i g h t , ah .

Why d i d n ' t S u l l i v a ~ scuawk?

I th ink Su l l ivan probably i s l oya l to th e ...

... i n s t i t u t i o n - -

. . . th e i n s t i t u t i o n and d o e s n ' t ~ a n t - -S o ~ e b o d y over t h e r e i s no t , can he he lp yo u

f ind ou t who th e h e l l i s not? I s n ' t it a

p o s s i b i l i ;\ ' • • •

He adv ised - -

. .. th e guy t h a t - - T i ~ e don ' t t h ink it's h i ~ ?

(

Magazine ' s l awyer , you

He sp e cu l a t e s , and , th e specu la t ion i s gener a l l y ,

i s i t ~ e i the r Sul l ivan h imse l f , Mark F e l t , ~ h o · 1s - -

I know, the lawyer says t h a t .

Th a t ' s r i g h t . Ah, and th e o t h e r one i s a fe l low

Tom Bishop who i s now depar t ed , Kho was in

charge o f t h e i r pub l i c in fo rmat ion and where- -

Does he know abou t t h e s ~ t h i n ~ s , Hoover d i d n ' ttell people l i ke th a t, about fhese th ings .. .

No.

... d id he?

For example, the ' 68 th inB , I t r y - , was t r y i ngto determin e who might k n o ~ about t h ~ t . Yeah , ah ...



DEMJ:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIVt:NT:

DEAN:

PRESIDSNT:

DEM1:

P H E S I D : ~ N T : DEJ\N:

15

Hoove r , apparent ly ...

I.Ih, I guess .

... Hoover apparent ly to ld P at Coyne, P a t r f c ~ : Coyne, who used to be on the NSC s t a r r .

I, len 01'; , I know, I bel i eve , i s he still l iv :LnC?

I don ' t , I don ' t know the man.

} Ie t o ld Pat Coyne?

He- to ld Pat Coyne ; Coyne to ld R o c ] ~ e f e l l e r ;Rocke f e l l e r re layed t h i s to Kiss inger , t h i s wasone ch anne l t h a t might have it in a pub l ic

domain. The o t he r i s "ihen Sul l ivan to ok t h ~ r ecords , or a l l the documents in connect ionwith t h i s , ah , out o f h is of f ice , and out o f

. t hp 'Au ~ P ? \l j hp . 1 ') in s t rnt: ~ '= t ! ! ~ \ . ! ~ r . . ~ ~ ~ ' t ~ : ; . Fie ld Off ice to destroy a l l t h e i r r ecords ,

which they did . Ah, Hoover, inc ensed a t t h i s ,t h a t he couldn ' t r econs t r uc t , t ha t he d i d n ' thave th e records and cou l dn ' t get them f ro3Sul l iv an , t r i ed to have th e Washington ~ i e l d Offic e r econs t r uc t them , which theY c o u l d n ' t .As a r e s u l t o f t h ~ t movement and f l a i l i ngaround by Hoover, a lo t of people in the agencywere aware of what had happen ed and it was on

th e grapevine . .{ - ~ . . ; . . ; ; . . . - - - -

Oh, t h a t ' s when it happened then , th e n igh t

Sul l iv an l e f t , he took th e r ecords with him--

He took the records with him ...

A:1d t h a t ' the only rec 'ords there were?

• • • and t ha t ' s th e only reco rds there a re .

He did it out o f , uh, I mean, p issed o f f a t

Hoov e r .

No, ah , he wa s doing it to ...

P: 'o tect ...

. , . p r o t e c t , ah- - - ~ r ~ ? 7 ) ' + : = _ ~ ~ - ! . - - - - - - ~ - -



6 ""EBRUARY 2..1-1 1973-1 PROf·] 3 :5 5 TO 1 ~ : 2 0 P.E.

PRESIDe]-;T:

DEAN:

PRES I D::NT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAI-!:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAH:

PRESIDEHT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESI DeNT:

... th e Bureau.

No, he was doing it to pr otect th e WhiteHouse and the people over here .

Oh, oh, but 1' 0 1' Ch r i s t sakes, Hoover,(uninte l l ig ib l e ) .

I ::·.:::an )

(---........-Hoover never got his ha nds on the e c c r ~ s i swhat happene d. Sul l ivan has th em, S u l l i hadh i s , ah, h i s p i s s i ng ma t ch i t h Hcover a ~ ~ then

took th em wi th him a t that t ime.

I see .

And then he turned them ov er to Mardianult imately .

.1 SP.P. .

And--

That ' s how we got them.

And th en--

Where's Sullivan now?

Sull ivan is back a t Jus t ice in the DrugIn te l l ig ence (u n i n t e l l i g ib l e ) .

We owe him something.

We do . He wants to go back to the B u r e a andwork on, ah, dom es t i c , ah--

\"rhy is it that Gre.y doe.sD! t \':-ant hil!!?

I th ink Mark Fel t has poisoned Gray onth is i s s ue and I think onc e Gray- -

Hell , \'1110 in the he l l , sOi':ebody i s do:i.n ; :':'-!d-:

Fe lt in . You k n o ~ wha t , do you, do you ~ 2 1 i e v e the Time

a ~ a zl awyer? I s Pel t

i ~ ~ 2 : -1 1 ~ i b l e ) , 1s he cap abl e of t h i s sor t of ~ ~ ~ n g ?

" . . ; r ' . " - . -', .' · .. ' . .. •

~ , .



DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDEnT :

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PHESIDEN'r:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN :

17

Well , l e t me tell you where I ; where e l sc · I

heard t h a t from> 2.h> '·Ias Sandy S l ~ i th , a:1 , I h2.dt o ld , no t , no t th e lawye r bQt s o ~ e b o d y el seto ld F e l t was h is sourc e ...

Yeah.

... and t h i s came to Henry Pete r sen , ah , HenryPe te r sen ' s an o ld hand over . t he r e , as you know, .and, ah , b less h is sou l , he ' s a valuable man

to us. Ah--

Yeah. What d id h e say?

Ah, he sa id t ha t he wouldn ' t pu t it p a s t Fe l t

bu t , ah . the o the r th ing I was t a l k i ng to

Kle ind iens t about th i s wh e n ! was ov e r t he r e , h esa id if Fe l t i s the source ...

Yeah .

... and if we ge ts Fe l t way out of j o i n t we

are in se r ious t rouble .

'Cause h e knows so much?

He knows so much.

Hhat ' s he lenov.?

l don ' t know . I d idn ' t ask fo r spec i f i c s wi th .

ah , he s a id , one th ing , he sa id he could kno·ck.

Does he know about Sul l ivan s t u f f ? (

Yes, he knows about t ha t . I ca l l ed Fe l t , askedhim what he knew about it and he was, fo r

exampl e , very coo l ;·rh en I , I ~ ; a i d , "There 'S a

Time Magazine s to ry runn ing , Mark , ah , t h ~ t in '6 8 . . .

Yeah .

o r , or in ' 69 and '70 . . .

PRESIDEnT : Yes.

."< . "_.



,.' , , : : ~ - = - - - - - - - ' t·

FEBRUARY 27 , 1973. YPON 3:55 TO ~ : 2 ~ P.M. 18

DEAH:

PRESIDE!iT:

D E ! d :

DEAN:

PRESIDEnT:

DEAN:

PRESIDE!'iT:

DEAN:

PHESIDE;I'l' :

and so on and so forth. He sa id , uh, I saidl ITrue or false?" acJ. r.e s2.id., "rl.'rue , 11 I ; '&.1.( ,

"How do you knO'.·; t h ~ t ? and I se j_Q, " I ' v e ns-.,r0Y'

heard of tha t bei'o y·;; ." He sa id , "\ ' :c l l , j_f : . - 'ta lk to Bi l l SUllivan , h e ' l l t e l l a l l a touti t . " l!hen he did 11<:: ,. s o r ~ a [.en\.'::::>a1, hepainted a general p i c t ~ r e a b o u ~ it. Ah, butju s t cool as a c u c u : ~ : b e r about it . Ilh-- r---. .And \'Iha t does he 5 2 j 2 . b o u ~ 'rime, 2.gain, -

do es he, i s he gonna stand up fo r th e denial?

He says , "John, " h:? sa id , ah, I said "P i r s t

of a l l , I don't> I don 't believe t h i s couldhappen," I was r r o ~ e c t i n g us, as fa r 2.5 . . .

Yeah .

• . •doubt ing \'That he-had mid . He sa id , "1'lel!,John, as fa r as I'm concerned, our, our phone cal l .i s t o t a l l y off t l-:e record , \·,e never h2.d it, ! sotha t ' s a good on e to watch, jus t r igh t there ,

In other \'lords, you c2.n't blow the whis t le enFel t , j u s t l ike you can ' t hlm-, the ' l h i s ~ l e 0: ,

the son-of-a -b i t8h Qut there , the yeornan, inthe Jack Anderson case , r ight?

Tha t ' s r igh t , but there wil l b e c o ~ e ah, t h e ~ e ~ i l l corne a day when Gray ' s comfortably inthere , \-rhen other things come pas t , t;1a ah- -

Like vlh a t?

I th ink that Gray can , a t some point when, if

th i s sor t of th in g cont inues , once h e getsthrou gh his confirmation , I don ' t know why hecouldn ' t. himsel f s?y "1.' m gonna take a l i ede tec to r t e s t ahd I 'm gonna ask everybody inimmediate shop t o take on e Rnd then we're ~ o n n a go out and asle sorne of the o ther aGents to t < ~ k e them . . ,

Jus t for leakage.

. II ••• -as for leakar:c, because th i s ', t h l s onlyhurt s , ah , th is '.:i!ole inst : t tu t ion."

(P ause )



""-..,.'

FEBRUARY 271 1973,.FROM 3:55 to 4 : 20 P . M. 19

PRESIDr::,iT :

DEAN:

PRESID:S:!T :

DEAN:

DEAN:

PRESID::::rr:

DEAN:

PRESIDE,:,},: .

DEAN:

PRESID::::·!T :

DEAN:

PRESID2!lT :

Where do you, ah, do you stand on the ,

hO\·; i'Till ,·, e l eave i t on Kleindien s t hears , .with r e ~ a r d to the , that ' s ~ l a t t h c r e , ~ h , l e t

put it th i s way. You take t h ~ r e s pb i l i t y for Kl e indi ens t , I 'm gonna keepEhrlichman and H a l d e ~ a ~ out of i t - - ou t o f t h e i r - -any re la t ionsh ip with Kleindienst . You s h c ~ l d have it only , bu t you've go t to watch h i ~ a ~ d brace him- - , on th e Ezecutive ?r iv i lege t h i ~t ha t you, tha t yo u t e l l him what the l ine i s ...

I have, I have ...

. . . . an d where he 's to s tand .

I have to ld him an d I ' ve s:", I said "I t ' sgonna be i!7lport2.nt."

Didn' t he ra i se the idea of the i r hurrying theExecutive Session refusal?

No, he did not .

All r igh ·t . Be sure he knOHs ",hat the back up

posit ion is> which (unin te l l ig ib le ) , as Iunders tand it , if we went in there under properah, ah, res t r ic t io :1s , allol'.' , uh, t,,,o O D . m i t ~ e e members to come down . I s tha t what you would d o ~ I th ink we wo-, ought , if I think we ought to

dr aw the l ine a t writ ten in ter rogator ies . _ thi:::%th e posi t ion should be t ha t you were holdingnothing back, in fornatio:1 wi se .

That would b e sworn.

That ' s r igh t , that would be sworn, uh, yoube in a posit ion of p r o t e c t i n ~ any, anybody

around here .

That 's r igh t .

The information has to available . But togo up th ere and ~ 2 k e a circus out . of th eappearance o f . of p e o p l e ~ -Ri[;ht.

'" - I -Z!1'' ...:- ..



H U ~ R Y 2 7 _ ~ 1 9 7 3 , FROH 3;55 TO ~ 1 : 2 0 P.:·'I. 20

DZ1-iN :

Pl·:ESIDENT:

DEAN :

pm;:SIDENT:

D E . ~ N :

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

pnESIDENT:

DEAH:

PP.ESIDENT:

l\ h --

Good, 'veI l l e t me say about uh, abO'.lt F e l t , it

sounds as if he knows, it sounds as if maybe h e ' s

Kind o f \ 'latch it l i ke a ha' ...k , H r. Pr es iden t ("'_____

Yeah.

and I j u s t got to 'va tch him, <'.11, h e ' s too

c lose to P a t Gray r i g h t now .

Yeah.

fo r o ur i n t e r e s t s . (P a t Gray .i s a little na ive . I

Referred

Yeah. Well I th ink i t ' s - -

And he never ever has anyth ing ",rong, f ind ou·t somei n t e r e s t i n g f ac t s , b u t , ah , noth ing \',e ev e r used . I

mean we j u s t \vere awful c a r e f u l . Joe Kr a f t , o f

course , should have been bugged. I \>iould th ink th e

s o n - o f - a ~ b i t c h i s , ah , p r a c t i c a l l y an ag en t to th e

communists.

Wel l , ...,h a ·t you sa id about Bo b and John · t o o , I t h ink ,

as before th e e l e c t i o n , I t r i e d to only bother them o r

consume any of t h e i r t ime "'hen it was j u s t abso lu te ly

e s se n t i a l .

Right .

l\nd I th ink t h a t ' s th e way it's been.

T h a t ' s r i g h t , t h a t ' s r igh t .

He, ah

th l iden t i f i ed : (Unin te l l ig ib le) i s here .

pnr::SIDENT: Fine , f ine .

.,;. 1 ' "



FEDRUMW?7, 1973,1"1\0:13:55 t r ) 4:20 P.;-I . 21

PRESIDENT:

HALDEfilAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:

PRESID2NT:

I buzz ed twice , t h a t means they , fo r ' e ~ tocome in . (Uninte l l i g ib le ) buzz (u n i n t e l : l g i b l e )t ha t meailS .

ApparentJy the phDnes a r en ' t working p r o ~ ~ r l y . Oh f i ne , su re , sure , su r e , have 'em comer i gh t in . Right there

(Uninte l l ig ib le ",ith no ise )

Well , s i r , I'll ge t t h a t s t a t e ~ e n t onexecu t iv0 p r i v i l c ~ e . I f you CGuld, uh, if you cou ld , uh, do y c ~ r bes t to , uh, if you could keep me pos ted ~ ! 1 (un in te l J i g i b l e ) ~ v e r y t h i n g t h a t way you needto bu t pa r t i c u l a r l y with r e l a t i on to Kle ind i ens t .

Okay?



EXCERPT FRON

'rRi\NSCRIPT OF A TAPE RECORDING OF A

CONVERSATION BETWEEN PRESIDENT

RICHARD NIXON AND RICHARD l·mORE ON

APRIL 19 , 1973 FRON 3 :34 TO 5 :00 P .H .

FINAL



' .

21

],PRCL 1 9 , 1973 rJ.:.O;'l 3 :1, ::; 1> • r: .. TO ::;: 00 P ;·i ..----- - - - - - - - -----

1-1000RE:

P R E S I D E l ~ ' I ' :

BoonE:

PRt3SIDEN T :

E d ~ f a r Hoover \ iouldn -t do El l sb e r g

bccetuse Louis L!h, . ' i a r j ' : . the

(1auqhter t .: i lS ~ t . : t r r i d . . ! · ) . r . x : vIas a

fr iend of Hoov2r ' s . You kno'.'; ·the s ·tor :f

t h e r e .

1\.hh.

'The toy r.an. The da U:Jhter h'CtS l ' \ar r ied

to El l sberg ~ n d Edgar -- ju s t persona l ly

-- ju s t c o u l d n ' t br in0 h imse l f t o s e ti n to it. So \,,'e hact -to do 'sO!!\c-thing Cf"()-n---_El l sb e r g and, and t;;e c a p a b i l i t i e s -e...h e r e t o -try to g e t infornc: t t ion on t1w,----__El l sb e r g c a se . B ut no'.-] on t l l a t score .The re \'laS no bugging , I round . They hadth e FBI do buqqing once it q o t in to th e

ca se let r:::.e as sure vou , b u t , b u t 2_5

t a r as th e -- t h e r e \'7aS t h i s crazy-thing \,]herc ll UI'lt goes au t and b r 8 a } ~ s int .o th e p sy ch i a t rist ' s o f f i c e andh a s a pictur .e t a ~ e n . I Mean, I r .ean,uh f (unin 'c e l l i g i b l e ) look a t some f i l e s

and so f o r t h . B u t , Ehr l i chmun,Ehrl ichElan had no knowledge o f , o f t h a tp a r t i c u l a r t h in g . He d id n o t a p p roveany th ing l i k e t h a t ilnc1 so fo r th and

so on. And I d o n ' t ).:noH ~ ' l h a t -Dean 'st a l k i n ' abou t the P lurr .bers. I s t h a t

it? •



"

DRAF'r

TRANSCRIPT OF A RECORDING OF A lJi.EETING

BET'iVEEN THE PRESIDENT AND HENRY PETERSEN

IN THE OVAL OFFICE ON lI.PRIL 19 , 1973,

FROM 10:1 2 TO 11:07 A.M.

I N - C ~ i l l R A SUBMISSION APRIL 30 , 1974

U. S . V . EHPLICHMAN

-



PRESIDi::N'l' :

PETERSEN :

PRESIDENT :

PETERSEN:

PHESIDENT:

PETERSEN :

PRESID :;:<;NT :

.PETERSEN :

4/19/73 Presid e nt/Henry Pete r sen Ova l Off ice 10:12-11:07 a . m

Nr. Petersen i s here .

Fine . I'll be f in i shed - - - would you tell him t ha t(un in -t e l l i g ib l e )

You know I 'm so r ry . I ke e p th inking (unint e l l i g i b l e )

Morning, Mr. Pres id ent .

Come on in ( un i n t e l l i g i b le ) wanted to ge t you b ack in th e

cour t room. I wanted -to - tel l you - - (unint e l l i g i b l e ) which

I th ink probably should be (uninte l l i g ib l e ) in t h i s who l eth ing .

Yes, I need to know.

Well , th e problem ba s i c a l l y i s t h i s . This i s -the El lsbe rg

case . You rem embe r our l a te /d e a r depar ted f r i e n d , Edgar Hoovel

You w i l l r e c a l l - - you know how he h a n d l ~ d th e El l sberg c a se .

Per s ona l ly , it involved r-1arx. He \ ' las one of h is c los e3-cf r i e nds . Marx. Not th e Harx Bro ther s , -the -toy make r s .

Urn.

Marx's daughte r i s marr ie d to El l s berg and Hoo v e r j u s t kicked

and churned and sa id , "I 'm j u s t not going to inves t i ga t e t h i s

th ing . I c a n ' t do i t . " (Unin te l l i g ib l e ) This i s a t l ea s t ;'That\.,e go t through Mit c h e l l . Under the ciJrcumstance s , Henry, aninvest_igat ion VlaS under taken \·,ith a very , very small crew a tth e Wh i t e House. That ' s Hh ere the Hunt group -- no th in g in

t e rms of b reak- ins or anything was approved.

But s e e ing what -the se c ra zy bas ta rds have done s ince , andsee i ng what - - now -the inves t iga t ion a l so and -t h i s i s th e

hope fu l t h ing as f a r as th e prosecu t io n, they d i d n ' t d o adamn b i t of good. I mean a l l they go t , they go -t mo s t l y vlhutappeared in th e papers t h a t El l sberg had psych iat r ic problems;t h a t El l sb erg was a (un in te l l i g i b l e ) t o Henry Kis s inge r . Hewas one of h is s tuden t s a t one t ime . I -t was gui-te a , apparen t :t

qu i te a - -

Well , by th e t ime I te ll Pete r s - -



1)R8S IDENT :

2RESIDENT:

P.ET'E RSEN:

PRE SIDENT:

PE TERSEN:

PilESIDENT:

.:?ETER SEN:

}?RESIDENT:

PReSIDE NT:

PI':'l'ERSEN:

I!RESIDENT:

PETERSEN:

I):RESIDENT:

: · ~ ' E l

\<hat I th ink i s t h i s . N:n e o f it w i l l " i n i n t h erosecu t ion . Then a f t e r t ha t f i na l l y Hoover g o t i n to i t .

~ o w , \-ihen Hoover go t in to it -- it should nOH b e ':I ire t a pping .

Oh? c -e sa id the re was no ques t ion abou t -t h a t . I don ' -t know who

he wire tapped. But I mean t h a t na t iona l s ecuri- ty ta p s \'ier eused a -t - that t ime and then as you knolt; with th e hu l l aba l o ot h a t arose o u t t h e r e we k n o c ~ < o f f a l l o f t h o se tap s( u n in t e l l i g ib l e ) • I am q u i t e aware of th e f a c t t h a t \ 'l e d oa l o t of bus ines s in t h i s - f i e l d .

Yes s i r , yes s i r . And I d o n ' t knoH

I j u s t want you to know. I j u s t ,.,ant you to knm'l t h a t mypurpose - -

Yes s i r . We could hardly be ca l led ille g a l in t h i s f i e ld - - -

,My purpose in th e Hunt t h ing in ca l l i ng yo u i s s imply to s a yit i s , it was a na t iona l secur i ty i nves t i ga t i on . It i s no - r e l a t ed in any wa y to th e Watergate th ing .

Correc t

And th a - th e purpose o f it \>leS - --Well , i s the re any o ther - - you know I c a n ' t s t ay away f r omt h a t which I d o n ' t know.

Cer ta in ly . Did Hunt do anything e l se?

Is t h e r e any o ther na t iona l s ecur i t y s t u f f t h a t we could - -

Yes.

-- i nadver t en t ly g e t in to -through Hunt. (

Yes, you could g e t i n to o ther t h in g s . For e xam?le, Hun-t

\

Hunt involved in bugging, D.ppa re n t l y . He t r i e d , f o r examp l e ,on one occas ion , he ,.,as - - it was bas ic a l l y ( u n i n t e l l i g i b le )El l sberg pe r iod , you know, t h i s p l ace wa s l e a k i n g l ik e a s ie v e ,and you remember Kis s inger I S )Ja t i ona l Secur i ty p e op l e .

Ye s , s i r . I do.



!. ' ~ : ~ [ l g . R S E N :

' -:'_{ESIDENT:

'.' [ :TERSEN :

PRl::SIDEN'f:

ERSEN:

j)RESIDE(>IT:

I?E'.l'ERSEN:

.'_RESIDENT:

.!.'HESIDSNT:

... :'!'EP.SE 'N :

NW#:36514

3

'\Va had a hor r ib le t ime and f rank ly -the coun-t ry \ las in

jeopardy because I -- it ,-;as imp2rat ive t h a t onr sit'.:.::ttiontV'ith fore ign governments i:lnd 11 lo t of other::; -t ha t I 'd g-et

Hoover in und say, "Damn it, VIe' ve go t to (unintel l ig ibl . : : : ) ."

(Unin 'cel l i g i b l e ) fo r myse l f . You knm,' hOH Hoover ':las. Vou

know, bu-t he hated to get i n to ai1ything involving press . Sowhen you - - I -think though, qui te candidly , Hoover fo r

au should kn (' ed th e -_.

I remember th e s i t u a t i o n , b u t I don't . (uninte l l ig i .b l e )

I c a n ' t: t e l l you - -

I remember th e en t i re t h ing , I remember. I know \ ~ h o youmean bu t I cari.' t reca l l h is name, ei - ther .

Referred

-now a \-1 en lrs-c came In - 0 0 :Clce he usedto send t h a t s t u f f over here by t he car load. He used to

love t h a t s o r t of t h i ng . '.chat \ ' le di scont inued a l so . Hedi scont inued t ha t .

Well , I should say , Nr. Pres ident , j u s t coinc identa l ly t h a t

s i nce they t r ans fe r r ed th e In te rna l Secur i ty Divis ion to me ,

uh - -

You have (un in t e l l i g ib l e )

y e s ~ And I - I . But I 'm a lso

I d o n ' t know --

Th e a u thor i t y runs from you to th e Attorney Genera l .

Certa in ly •

The ' 'lay some o f it i s being exerc i sed i s only ( u n i n t e l l i g i b l e ) .

What?

'£he way some o f it i s being exerc i sed i s only ( \ . \nintel l igible) •I j u s t s e t up. I j u s t s e t up.

Docld : 3144385£) E { ~ (1 r"'T'~ . . ) , \\ J 'i '- '.. ..



.t . I . d ! ; E N

PETERSEN:

P. .RESIDENT:

pg'rERSEN:

l' lUWIDENT:

j;ETERSEN:

~ S I D E N T :

.",:")ETERSEN:

PHESIDENT:

NW#:36514

4

I d o n ' t want. th e damned th ing (uni n t e l l i g i b l e ) , youunde r s t and . I unders tand it S been k nockec1 o f f . I wc.n t

some - - I d o n ' t want ( un in t e l l i g ib l e ) unders tand you ' re

going a f t e r gangs ter s o r oth e r th ings l ike t h a t . It j u s tisn't Harth it.

No . :r am n o t t a lk ing about the na t iona l securi 'cy s t u f fin th e count ry . I am t a lk ing about e i t h e r fo re ign

i n t e l l i g e n c e s tu f f . I am holding some o f them up - - Iam hold ing some o f them up b ecause they have 'co be approvedby a Deputy somebody over ext t he S ta t e Department and \.;ea r e t i gh ten ing up ·th e procedure . T ha t ' s a l l .

The Pres i d en t approves ( un in t e l l i g ib l e )

I unders tand .

I don 't knmoT about th e Attorne

' - ~ _ " " ! " " " _ . . . . . , ~ " " ! " " " _ " : " " " " - = - _ ~ ~ ~ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -- nOyT, you havea lso heard about Joe Kraf ·t .

Yes, s i r .

You've r ead t h a t column. (Unin te l l ig ib le) was bugged, I t h ink .

But vlhat it involved were l eaks of na t iona l s ecur i ty documentsth a ·t had got ten in ·to Kraf t s columns and so f o r th and so on .Nothing came o f it as a r e su l t excep t t h ey , I t h ink , f i r edsomebody over h e re . Now t h a t - - nm·/ t h a t ' s an o th e r t h ing .

Right .

I j u s t ,,ranted you to know · that they a re inves.t.igati', but

i ·t i s miniscu le compared to \.;hat Johnson \,ras doing . You--youknow \vhat ! mean. As yo u know, it "Tas very heavy during t h a tper iod -- very , very heavy. And as Sul l ivan sen t a memorandumto me and it was pre t ty shocking. He 'de n t a f t e r Stevensonon th e Democratic Committee and a lso bugged o ur plane dur ing

th e c ampaign.

I unders tand .

Docld:31443854



/8 ',rEHSEN :

~ S I D E N T ;

5

Now I my po in t i s t h a t thd:t Cloesn 1 t -ju s t i f y i . ~ n ' l ~ h i n ( J 1\0'. ' /.

But in th e cas e of the Hunt t h ing , ~ o u u l a Hn2rl he '\"2\8 a t th e ii/n i ,te House dn d h e ',.Fi S ',lO::kins.r in t,bef i e ld of drugs . He worked on t h i s p a r t i c u l a r ac t i v i ty

and Liddy worked \'li ,th him as I unders tand. I t h ink L iddyd id t oo . This - - but f rankly , I r ea l l y d i d n ' t know t h i smyse l f u n t i l -this case c a l ~ e ou-t_ I s 3.id , ";,7ha t : L ~ th e

(exp le t ive removed) i s Hunt doi_ng?" I unde r s tand wha the , '7dS doing and I ,-Ould h ave app:::-oved a t th e 'cime b e cau se'\1'8 had. noth ing t h a t we could ge 't ou t o f Hoover. Hoover

d id conduc t th e inves t iga t ion and d id a he l l o f a good j ob.Hoover d id reCOl'nmena the inv e s t i ga t i on to ,the p:r.:osecution

on El l sberg ~ I ' h i c h I ' think i s probably sa fe . J don 't knOivif h e w i l l make it o r no t .

I d o n ' t know e i t h e r .

I hope so .

Incid 2 n ta l ly

I \>lan't you ,t o unders tand , that I have never used ,the word

na ' t ional secur i ty unless it i s . As f a r as ' da te rga te i sconcerned , o r any of 't ha t c r ap , you j u s t -,- b u t ' "'hen I

c a l led you th e o t h e r day I sa id I am no t going ,to l e t anys tone un turned and , that i s ,,,hat, you and I have g o t to 'L'.nder

s tand . But I am a.nxious to g e t one o:c 't\"O ,things r Henry 1

very impor tant . In 't erms of p r iv i l e g e ' l 'hat, you - - tha ' t

One. An y convers a't ions \Vi-!::h th e Pres iden t a re obvious ly

p r iv i l e g e d .

Yes, s i r . I unders tand t h a t .

Everybudy s h a l l h ave a mind and any conversa t ions - - and th e- in th e n a t i o n a l secur i ty area - - -you can as k a ny o the rs

around here -- you as k Dean - - Dean ' - - Ehrl ichm an and Ha l deman

if Hunt was involved in th e El l sb9rg - - and he was invo lved've c a l l e d it th e plumbing oper a-t ioD. An,d b a s i c a l ly i 'e Fas

leak",; Ex'om th e Nat i o n a l Securi , ty Cou n c i l which appeared in

,the co:Lumns and i ,t involved only - - and d id no't involve anyuh - - i ,t d id no t involve any uh - - any e l ec t ron ic d e v i c e ,

eV8sdr?pping, b u ~ it involve d a he l l of an inve s t ig r t ie l l ,o ne h e ll o f a lo 'c. '--..______

I i nd ica ted to you

,( s. .., t_ o') ..- .-Z>p(; ,.: .- ,



PRESIDENT:

T E R S

PRES IDENT :

SIDENT:

PETERSEN:

PRES IDENT:

}'I(ESIDEN'E:

l'I;:ESJ:D:2NT:

6

' l 'hac S as much as I know abou t it a- t t h i s -t ime.

I i nd ica ted to you th e t ~ e r day - -

I don r - know whe'cher Dean - - Dean ma y be qu i t e Iu mil ia .rwi th - th is because he "vas very much -- you kn ow what Imean, he ,vas s o r t o f in charge of t h i s kind o f a c t i v i tyand h2 may be f a m i l i a r wi-th it and he may no t b e but I h.::ivetri ed -to g e t t h i s so r t ed ou t . I have ju s t had -them on i c.

over here , as you know, wh a -t d id th e y do and ""ha t i s t h e r e --

as fu r as I am concerned , I d o n ' t mind anything coming ou -t ,b u t -- >,lant anything coming o ut on -the El l sberg -t h ing .

Right . (

We had t o doit

. I don -t want anything coming ou t on~ ' 7 h a t

we were doing with NSC . I d o n ' t Hant anthing coming o u t - what we ,-lere doing - - Hoove r (un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) Hoover(unin t e l l i g i b l e )

:( Inaudible )

(Uninte l l i g i b l e ) I am hoping f o r th e day when th e man Ihave in mind fo r t h a t job ge t s away from ,.;hat he -i s presen- t ly

doin g so I c an p u t hi m in b u t we have go t to g e t a man in

-there c::.nd f a s t . Imd I am going t o c l ean everybocy o u t 0:E th eBureau a t second l eve l Everybody.

W e l L ~ - - H e needs -- he ' s a little - - - -

You know you - - with a job l i ke h i s . (Unin te l l ig ib le )

I - t ' s no jo b anybody should run fo r , Mr. P r e s i d e n t .

What i s -tha t?

It's no t a jo b anybody should ask fo r o r r un f o r . Th e

r e s p o n s i b i l i-ti es a re almost as g r e a t us your O f f i c e .

You should know - tha t I f e l t t h a t you were -- . lOu came

h i g h ly commended. Mitche l l s a id Henry Pete r sen i s th e bes o guy fo r -the job .

In -this p r e s e n t d i f f i c u l t y , I am f l a t -te :ced .



'. " :....• . ') .

.. --) ~ ~ } : j ~

7

Well , it's R h e l l of a thing - - a very impor tun t th ing .

N r. P:;:csiden-t, ·the ot-:her c1i.iy I ind ica '::ed 'Ul11'!: \ 'iE: il:ld aprobl em ,-lith lcaks , an d e :3 you kno .", He do.

I t I-as shocking t:o me to see St.rachan IS ·test:ill,ony - - noth is l a t e s t tes · t imony \ '7here the U. S. A'L-:torney --

Hell" I think vie are going to ha've t:o do s o ~ n e - : : h i n g

(Unin te l l ig ib le ) verbatim - - verbatim (uninte l l i g ib le)l ega l i ty of t h i s thing (uninte l l i g i b l e ) . .

Folder 9/22: Binder #2-Summaries of notes and tape transcripts

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