Folder 9/21: Binder #1-Summaries of notes and tape transcripts

8/3/2019 Folder 9/21: Binder #1-Summaries of notes and tape transcripts

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4/13/71 2:45 p.m.Pres iden t , H (Haldeman), E (Ehrlichman)1. Pres iden t - JE Hoover conversat ion Eas te r w/Pres iden t

1. Boggs th ing shou ldn ' t ge t hi m down2 . ,We were fos ter ing defense

Boggs s ick3. Volunteered: any t ime I 'm a l i a b i l i t y I'll leave

I want you ree lec ted in '72Pres iden t : I passed it o ff4. Attacks make me tough5. Pra i sed Wed. Speech6. Raised h e l l re Kle ind iens t tes t imony re i nves t i ga t i on

of FBIA/G gr ea tRK (Kleindiens t) not

(AG phoned me t h i s a.m . . o f ind ou t what wa s sa id - - JEH (Hoover)memo 4/12 cu t ; Mardian ou t o f domestic i n t e l l i gence & impl ied ;JEH (Hoover) bugged some a t Pr es i den t ' s request )Pres iden t - reassur ing - - b u i l t him up2. Psychopath ic - - must goG Sh in , H (Haldeman)out


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2 .

4. IRS & Bar th (JC appointment)With HRH(Haldeman) only - -5. Conversa t ion with J . Edgar Hoover

Sun. and /o r Monday- Cut o ff Mardian I n t e l l . (memo to 12)

Elec . su rve i l lance a t Pre s iden t ' s reques t- Known only to JEH (Hoover) and Sul l ivan

- Using Pres iden t as t oo l


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TRANSCRIPT OF A RECORDING OF A PORTION OFA MEETING B E T ~ ' m E N PRESIDENT NIXON, HALDENANAND EHRLICHNAN ON JULY 6 , 1971


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MITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:MITCHELL:NIXON:MITCHELL:NIXON:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

MITCHELL:

7 (----But , uh, they a r e , o f course , these obviousl eaks t h a t go back in to th e Halper ins , or th eo r Larry -Lynn o r th e r e s t of them and t h a t ' swhat they 've been working on over th e weekendand I'll have a br i e f ing on t h a t today .John , would you l ike - - do you th ink it wouldbe wel l to pu t , uh, to put uhf fo r you to p u tsome -- oh, maybe t h a t i s n ' t t he p l ace fo r it.Maybe th e p lace fo r it's up in a committee o fCongress . Let Ichord and h is bear ca t s goa f t e r it. Uh, \-']hat I 'm ge t t i ng a t is, t h a t , uh ,you 've go t the El l sberg case . I f I 'm n o t soin te r e s ted i n ge t t i ng ou t and ind ic tng peopldand then having our mouths shut . 11m morei n t e r e s t ed in f rankly , ge t t i ng th e s t o r y o u t , seeth e po in t? Tha t ' s even on t he E l l sbe r g t h i n g .I 'm n o t so sure t h a t I 'd would. t h a t l i d , ,]anthim t r i e d , convicted \ve had to do t h a t becausehe ' s admit ted - - bu t as long as \1e can , uh --Well , uh, v]e have El lsbe rg back in to some o four domest ic Cowmunists.Have you?Yes.You r ea l ly have?Yup.Domestic Communists - - nmv, t h a t ' s t h a t s g r e a t .Tha t ' s th e kind of th ing we need.Tha t ' s r i g h t . An d \V'e're pu t t i ng th e s to ry t o ge t he r . He 's been, a t tended meet ings o u t inMinnesota and, uh, fo r t h i s communist la \vyer i na trial ou t t he re and we ' re put t ing a l l t h a tt oge t he r . We're g e t t i n ' - -I s th a -t , i s t ha t th e r e s u l t of Hoover o r th eDefense Department , do you th ink?You mean th e informat ion?


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NIXON:MITCHELL:

NIXON:MITCHELL:

NIXON:HITCHELL:

NIXON:HALDE.r-T..AN:

NIXON:MITCHELL:HALDEHAN:

rUTCHELL:H A L D E ~ t ! A N :HITCHELL:HALDEMAN:

NIXON:HALDEM..i\N :

NIXON:

8Yeah.It, it came o u t of a u.s. Harshal ou t inMinnesota who, uh . .Oh?

. recognized th e guy and recognized h isbackgroundGrea t

and had, had him under su r ve i l l ance a tone o f those meet ings .Mm Hmm. r---Shou ldn ' t somebody g e t a t - - I assume t h e ~ keep th e f i l e s on a l l those t aps when vle wererunning a l l those people through.You know tha-esHalper inThis - - In l i g h t of t h i s , some o f t h a t s t u f f ma ybe a h e l l of a l o t more meaningfu l nowI

than it was then .I , I , I ' ve had them reviewed in th e Bureau .There were a l o t of conv e r s a t i ons with Sheehanin them, to my r eco l l ec t ion .Were there?I t h i nk t he r e were. I may be \,lrong bu t I suret h i nk there was. And nobody would agree - -( severa l t a lk ing a t once)In l i g h t of cu r r en t h i s to ry who's go t th e t imeto read it. I haven ' t , I na tu ra l ly neve r sawany o f t h a t s t u f f . (-=---------


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HALDEr-1AN:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:MITCHELL:NIXON:MITCHELL:

9Well some o f it may have been gobbledy gooka t th e t ime bu t it mayWell , a , Bob i s r i gh t . You hever know \"ha tthose t aps meanNo .

un t i l it r e l a t e s to . . .No

And t hey ' r e being r e V i e ~ something .EHRLICHMAN: John, don ' t you think t h a t , uh, He cou ld ge tourse lves in to a , in to a dilemma if Mardian

begins to develop evidence on t h i s con sp i racyand \ ' le want to go on a non- lega l approach -e i t h e r leaks o r through the Ichord committee.I f it, i f it ge t s too - - if, i f , if th e Ju s t i c eNIXON: too fa r down the t r ack - :( '"EHRLICHMAN : (Unin te l l ig ib l e ) . too much in th e

MITCHELL:

NIXON:

predominance so to speak in th e development o ft h i s - -Well , it's my idea t h a t we should only pickou t th e hard cases to t ry where ",e knO\v \ve canconvic t ions .John what i s your f ee l ing on - - speaking ofhard cases , no>v - - uh. Or, are you, do you sayt h a t you ' r e gonna , they ' r e having a grand j u rydo you, did somebody t o l d me t h a t Ch eean o rSheehan - -

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah, Mardian to ld me t h a t .MITCHELL:

NIXON:MITCHELL:

Well , we're running a grand ju ry in , in Bostonwhich doesn ' t necessa r i l y r e l a t e to a n y b o d ~ . I see .It r e l a t e s to th e ove r a l l case .

-


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NIXON:

11ITCHELL:NIXON:

MITCHELL:

NIXON:MITCHELL:NIXON:

MITCHELL:NIXON:

10 c _- -ow, on Sheehan. Le t ' s t a l k about t h a t . I st h a t smart? J u s t , j u s t being qui te candid .

I s it smart to go a f t e r Sheehan? My fee l ing ,o f f th e top of my head, i s to convic t t h a tson o f a bi tch before a committee.Shehan?Hake him the ( un in te l l ig ib l e ) Here ' s thepo in t . Uh. Let me say t h a t , uh 1 e t me, l e tme recap in my own mind th e whole a t t i t ude onth e whole th ing on t h i s . F i r s t , and despi tea l l th e bea t ing and so for th you 've t aken , youd id th e r igh t , we've done exact ly th e r igh tth ing up t h i s poin t . You had to g et t h a t caseto cour t . It had to go to the Supreme Courtand when yo u r ead those , \vhen you r ead the , th eth e opinions - - as even Scot ty Reston agreedit, it gave them goddam little comfor t .This i s th e genera l census in th e newspapers nowwhich I th ink i s r igh t .Right , t ha t ' s r igh t .

which I th ink i s r i g h t and gr ea t .But my poin t i s tha t it had to be done . On t h e ,on th e o the r , on the next po in t , however, I th inkt h a t having done t ha t and now, now, we've got tocont inue to pro tec t t he secu r i ty o f these , t heseth ings - - having in mind our own secur i ty - - b u t ,not recogniz ing t h a t there i s , in my view, It h ink the re i s - - I , I won ' t say t h e r e , bu tt h e r e ' s very, it seems t o me, pre t ty good evidenceof a conspiracy . Do yo u f ee l there I s a conspiracy'?Well , yes .I d o n ' t j u s t d o n ' t know.


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15EHRLICHNAN: Yeah.MITCHELL: No . I wouldn ' t want him to t e s t i f y because

if he did , he 'd ask fo r immunity and t h a t wouldbe th e end o f it.E H R L I C H ~ ~ : Tha t ' s r igh t .MITCHELL: And we can get the tes t imony out , \'1e knm'lE H R L I C H ~ f f i N : You can never , you can never ge t Sheehan

except on the tes t imony of uh witnesses

MITCHELL:HALDEMAN:

on t he , uh \'Tell, uh, on the committee o r ontes t imony o f o th e r s , o the r s , l imi t ed , and so fo r thand so on.Well - -A ll we'd have to do ge t maybe somebody whorece ived th e s tu f f .

EHRLICHMAN: Plen ty o f people , people have been conv ic tedwithout (un in t e l l i g ib l e ) it's a t e r r i b l e l e s son .

MITCHELL: Sheehan, Sheehan 's wife was one o f them. S h e ' sg o t a qui te a po l i ce record inc lud ing shop l i f t ingdo\'ln here in Washington.UNIDENTIFIED: Well , I suppose, '(un in t e l l i g ib l e )HALDE lfJAN : She ha s no expecta t ion .MITCHELL: ;,.J-..,No, n o ' ~ of them have any immunity e x p l i c i t o r(un in t e l l i g ib l e )NIXON: We're \ 'Te ' reE H R L I C H ~ 1 A N : We're going to have to ga ther t h i s in format ionin t ha t ' s ava i l ab l e to th e Pres iden t .MITCHELL:

E H R L I C H ~ : MITCHELL:

A ll r i g h t . Dick Moore has been working on someo f t h i s . He's got a l o t o f th e backgroundmemoranda.H e ' l l be (un in t e l l i g ib l e )(un in t e l l i g ib l e )

EHRLICHMAN: He c a n ' t (un in t e l l i g ib l e )l1ITCHELL: Yeah.


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7/10/71Pres ident , H (Haldeman) , E (Ehrlichman), RMWExpla in to Whi t t :e r

Close to homeFur t he r from Univ.No commercial advantage to anyoneSe l l to Whi t t i e r

Nixon I n s t i t u t e fo r World PeaceIn a Quaker Col lege where it belongs

Thru GSATota l ly persona l for pol . pape rsBe kep t t he re , r i o t here

Here: MuseumLibrary

S p l i t up papersOK to s p l i t upWhit t i e r - - quant i ty l and

parkingno t prox . to Pres ident

2. Conf. r e s id .A conservat ive center

3. Make use in terchangeablew / ~ ' l l i i t t i e r

~ - - - -


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2.

9. El lsbe rg a t Sper l ing GPTonken GulfMcNamera tapesWhile consul t an t to JC of S

10. Rogers - - should be tapping more - -11. Re grand ju ry - -

Don ' t worry re t aps on d i scovery re Wtts (lvh i t e House o rwi tnesses )12. Goal

Do to McNam, Bundy, JFK, e t c . th e samedes t r uc t i ve job t h a t was done on r b e r t Hoover years agoLBJ Angle - - the Kennedy people be i nhe r i t ed - -


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3.

6. Te l l Hoover to des troy7. M (Mardian): Ordered only to go with grand jury

s h o r t of newspaperWitnesses or newspaperInd ic tmentsAwait in s t ruc t ions from Attorney GeneralNow a t t h a t p o i n tCan make Sheehan (?) El l sberg cases now

8. Pres iden t - - Let the CommitteesEast landIchordHit the papers

9. E.G. Congress iona l f i gh t CBSDon' t c a l l newspapers before grand jury

10. 10 year Sta tu te of L imi ta t ionsEspionageAn inadequa te s t a tu t eNeed t o inqu i r e r e la w i s adequate


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4.

11. M (Mardian): Quest ion i s IchordEast land more dependableHas bes t lawyerKletndienst and M (Mardian) to Sen. E (East land)Pres iden t r eques t s him toDo it soon

12. FB I going a l l ou t now13. We' l l n o t deny Ichord the s t u f f

Get East land in too14. Haig re tu rn documents to FB I

Then to RM (Mardian) fo r des t ruc t ionHaig r eques t the FB I (Su l l ivan) to dest roy a l ls p e c i a l coverageSul l ivan wi l l con tac t Mardian

15. 20% of source documents missing (Ellsberg)Can ' t be found in Government f i l e s

16. Mathias - - d i d n ' t de l i ve r h is documents17. Pres iden t phone c a l l18. Gelb the p r in c ip a l co-consp i r a to r


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10/2 /71HWarning o f worry

Sul l ivan a t FBI - - wi l l blow bigTop guy wi l l come ou t bad

Po l i t i c a l foo tba l l major propor t ionsOther s id e wi l l u se it

And Sul l ivan wi l l s ingWe should s tand loose


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1MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT NIXON, MITCHELL AND EHRLICHtviANON OCTOBER 8 , 1971, FROB 10:40 A.M. TO 10:46 A.H.

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:~ l I T C H E L L :

EHRLICHt-lAN :MITCHELL:

EHRLICmmN:

PRESIDENT:EHRLICHMAN:

PRESIDENT:

Mr. P r e s i d e n t , tw o o th e r quick t h ingsif you have another moment.Sur e .We have t h o se , uh , t apes , logs and sofo r th ove r in Mardian ' s sa fe on t h a tbackground i n v e s t i g a t i o n , wire tapp ingwe d id on Kiss inger ' s s t a f f , th e news-papermen and so f o r th . Hoover -- uh ,those ",ere given to Mardian by Sul l ivanbefore he l e f t .He have a l l the FBI ' s cop ies .Yeah. Uh. Hoover i s t e a r in g th e p laceup over the re t ry ing to g e t a t 'ern and,uh , o f course the defense i s t h a t Mardian,Mardian has them because you d i r e c t e d himto have them. The ques t ion i s , shouldwe g e t them ou t of Hard ian ' s o f f i c e befo reHoover blows th e sa fe o r , and br ing 'e move r here and p u t 'ern in John ' s cus todyI th ink John ' s cus tody, \vhich I t h ink'vould be th e appropr ia te th ing to dobecause t hey ' r e pa r t of the o v e r a l l i n v e s -t i ga t i on o f uh, th e Pentagon Papers ~ a ~ n _ d ~ ________t h i s whole mess. C

------y impress ion from t a l k in g to Mardian is t h a tHoover f ee l s very insecure \v i thout havingh is own copy of those th ings because , o fcourse t h a t gives him l everage wi thM i t c h e l l and with you Yeah. and because t hey ' r e i l l e g a l . NOW, -he d o e s n ' t have any cop ie s and he has a g e n t sa l l o v e r t h i s town i n t e r r o g a t in g p e o p l e ,t ry ing to f ind ou t where they a r e , - - He ' sgo t Mardian ' s bu i ld ing under s u r v e i l l a n c eHe doe s n ' t even have h is own, uh - -


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2MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDEN'r NIXON I HITCHELL AND EHRLICHr.-t.ANON OCTOBER 8 , 1971, FROM 10:40 A.H. TO 10:46 A.M.

EHRLICmm.N:

PRESIDENT:EHRLICHMAN:

MITCHELL:PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

EHPLICHMAN:MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:PRESIDENT:

l1ITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:NITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

Now, see , we 've go t 'em. Sul l ivan sneaked'em ou t to Mardian.Now why th e h e ll d i d n ' t he have a copy , t oo?I f h e does , h e ' l l bea t you over th e headwith it. (Yeah.Oh.I th ink t h a t it's very wel l s t r u c tu r e dwhere it is, but the imp-- , th e He's go t ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) . c r unch , th e crunch i s t h a t theysh o u l d n ' t b e in M ar dian ' s hands becausehe would suspec t '' 'ha t Mardian migh t dowith them v is a v is Hoover.Mardian ' s i n J u s t i c e , you 've g o t t a g e tthem o u t o f t he re . Do vJe have them inmy hands , then?Sur e , su re .Why d o n ' t we j u s t say th e Pr e s id e n t wantsthem i n h i s own hands and I 'm g e t t i n g ,t ry ing to g e t some from Helms in my ownhands . Why don 't vle say it t h a t ' 'lay?And Hoover knows damn ' veI l I 'm n o t goingto do any th ing. ' t.,-....:::...-----Well , Hoover won ' t come and t a lk to meabout it . He j u s t go t h i s , uh , G-,Gestapo a l l o v e r the p l a c e .Yeah.I f , if he does, I 'm j u s t gonna say t h e y ' r eover here .\-vho w i l l , Vlho \ ' l i l l, vlho , . ; i l l do t h i s . You'vego t in mind?


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4MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT NIXON, MITCHELL AND EHRLICHHANON OCTOBER 8, 1971, FROM 10:40 A.M. TO 10:46 A.M.PRESIDENT:MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:PRESIDENT:

MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:MITCHELL:PRESIDENT:MITCHELL:PRESIDENT:

I unders tand . and uh, I don ' t kno,"l how ''1e goabout it, Hhether we reconsider Mr . Hooverand h is e x i t or whether I j u s t have tobear down on him. Lead to a conf ron ta t iono r what, uh - -Well , as I to ld you, I wi l l s t a r t o f f t h a tpr ac t i ce . He says th ink it's r i g h t . Hesays I know whenever you - - you 've go t t a g e tre -e lec ted (unin te l l ig i b l e ) . I f you th inkt h a t my presence i s going to be r ea l ly harmfu l , he says , I w i l l re s ign . Th a t ' s apr e t t y , p r e t t y n ice way o f saying I d o n ' tth ink I am harmful . He wa s t a l k i ng abouth is suppor t on th e H i l l and so fo r th andso on.Well , su re .Uh, as of th e moment t h a t i s t r ue t h a t heoughta re s ign , fo r a lo t of reasons heoughta re s ign , in my view i s he oughtar es ign whi le he ' s on t op , before he b ecomes an i s sue in th e cur ren t , the le a s to f it i s he ' s too o ld .He 's ge t t i ng sen i l e , ac tua l ly .He should g e t th e h e l l ou t o f t he re . Nowit may be , which I kind of doub t , I d o n ' tknow, maybe, maybe I could j u s t c a l l himin and t a lk him in to re s ign ing .Sha l l I go ahead 'v i th th i s conf ron ta t ion , t hen ,on t h i s uh ava i l ab i l i t y of the agents andt h e i r ma-terial?Sure . ( - - -

an d the Secre t Serv ice .I th ink you shouldI th ink we should.And then -- " le l l , l e -t ' s , let's run t h a tby (unin te l l ig ib le \vith noise) th e n. Wel l ,


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5MEE'rING BETltlEEN PRESIDENT NIXON , HITCHELL AND EHHL ICHMANON OCTOBER 8 , 1971, FROM 10:40 A.M . TO 10:46 A.M.

MITCHELL:PRESIDENT:MITCHELL:

PRESIDENT:MITCHELL:PRESIDENT:MITCHELL:PRESIDENT:

MI'I'CHELL:

I mean, I 'm wi l l ing to t ake it on i f weh ave to do it. Th e r e , t h e r e , t h e r e ' r esome problems in it I mean, th e dayHoover goes , why he goes ou t -- you s e e ,it' s l i ke a l l these people t h a t say , w e l l ,th e h e l l , they have g o t Agnew, change a n d ,and a c e r t a in area p o l l shOvls t h a t Agnewa t the p r e se n t t ime vlOuld be l i a b i l i t y morethan an a s s e t a t a c e r t a in per iod o f t i m e .We know th a t Agnei'] c a n ' t le ave t h a tt i ck e t un les s he does . Can ' t do it. Andth e same i s t r ue o f Hoover - - if I f i r edHoover , if you th ink , ']e' ve g o t an u p r i s i n gand a r i o t now ( u n in t e l l i g ib l e w i t h no ise )would be t e r r i f i c Edgar Hoover has g o t to go.I f he does go I he ' s g o t to go o f h is ovmv o l i t i o n -- t h a t ' s ,,h a t we g e t dO\m to ,and t h a t ' s why we' re in a h e l l o f a prob lem.An d a t the p r e s e n t time, I d o n ' t t h i n k ,John, I t h ink h e ' l l s t ay u n t i l h e ' s 100year s o ld . I th ink he loves it.I th ink h e ' s j u s t aHe loves it.H e ' l l s t ay til he ' s bur ied t h e r e .I mmor ta l i t y . The wa y h e ' s , th e way h e ' shandl ing t h a t dep ar tment -- uh Yeah.

t h i s , t h i s s t u f f ' s gonna break Yeah.

around it.Wel l , can I, uh, can we do , uh ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e )I 'm w i l l i n g to f i g h t him, b u t I d o n ' t .You se e , I th ink ,-le' ve g o t to avoid th es i t ua t ion ,-,here he -- he cou ld l ea \re wi th ab l a s t t h a t i s ( u n in t e l l i g ib l e ) I d o n ' t t h i n khe Hi l l . I th ink h e ' s so damn p a t r i o t i cand he knows very \'le l l t h a t (uninte l l i g ib l e ) . .He's n o t , h e ' s n ot gonna b l a s t u s . ___________


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6t1EETING BETilJEEN PRESIDn:T NIXON, MITCHELL AND EHRLICm,2'1..NON OCTOBER 8, 1971, FROM 10:40 A. M. TO 10:46 A.M.

PRESIDENT: . fo r us, but 1 1 m, on the o the rhand, you can ' t have him go o u t of t he r emumbling. ' V ' h a t do you want to do? Imean, if you th ink you want him out ,I'll play the game with you , to g e t himin here and - -

MITCHELL: You f ee l t h a t he, he ,viII not t ake thescenar io t h a t we've t a lked abou'cfo r the b ig hurrah on January 1 , PRESIDENT: \vell .l>1ITCHELL: l e t ' s say, \vi th somebody in there inthe meantime.PRESIDENT: I so r t a , I \vent a l l round ,\,1i th him. Isa id it might be b e t t e r to do t h a t , t r y ingto s t a r t a t the o the r end. J u s t cou ldn ' trun th e r i sks with the e l ec t ion .MITCHELL: Haybe \ve oughta l e t maybe we oughtal e t some o f these Indians loose over t he reand s t a r t t ear ing 'e m up a little b i t .PRESIDENT: Well , maybe a f r iend of h is in th e pr essoughta wri te t ha t . They've got the gu t sto do it. A Dick Wilson , people l ik e t h a t .Hoover oughta do th i s a t the peak of h iscareer . In o the r words, it's l i k e Lo u

Gerhig and a l l the grea t guys you knmv -Bob Fe l l e r - - the ones tha t you remember,are the ones , you knmv, who d i d n ' t p layt ha t ex t r a year . They s t ruck ou t . Theygot ou t Ted Williams d i d n ' t (un in te l l i g i b l e )HITCHELL: Is the re any such person t ha t ' s t ha tc lo se to Hoover?PRESIDENT: Damned if I know.E H R L I C H ~ . A N : The, uh - - our , our t ime frame, : I t h ink , i s Vet igh t because of Sull ivan i s s i t t i ng ou tthe re and with a h e l l of a l o t of in fo rmat ion .

(


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MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDEN'I' KIXON , r-UTCHELL AND EH RLI CH t


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6

Ehrl ichman. Yeah.Pres iden t . {-vhatcha doin ' about c i v i l r ight s?Ehrl ichman. Wiretapping and ,ePres iden t . ~ ~ a t do ya ask about wiretapping.Ehrl ichman. Yeah.Pres iden t . What i s the , ah on Hoover - - look up Hoover ' sname and age.UNKNOWN. Hoover 's age?Pres iden t . Don ' t c a l l the FB I to f ind o u t , j u s t , j u s t lookit up. I th ink it's 76 o r . 7 , I would \'7ant to. knm" month of bir thday. Ah , nm", you, let's let'slook a t t h a t in te rms o f , uh,Ehrl ichman. One th ing that'll happen - -Pres iden t . No, I don ' t know, I don ' t know, maybe it w o n ' t work,but I , I guess , I guess , I , t h a t , I th ink th a t wecould get Hoover, I th ink I could g e t Hoover tore s ign i f I pu t it to him d i r ec t ly t h a t wi thou t

it he ' s going to be hur t p o l i t i c a l l y which I happento bel ieve if you do it otherwise . But I t h i nk i fhe re s igns , and I th ink , he ' s going to , I d o n ' tt h ink he ' s going to l i ke it, I don ' t th ink II th ink t h a t your confi rmat ion i s going to be onehe l l of a job . And you want to remeinber whoeverwe appoint , uh, i s appointed a t th e w i l l of th ePres iden t any\'7ay. (unin te l l ig ib le)They can (unin te l l ig ib le) i f we l o s t th e e l ec t ion .

Ehrl ichman. Sure . You take the posi t ion t ha t y o u ' l l picksuccessor i f you ' re e lec ted .Pres iden t . Yes.Ehrl ichman . In o the r words , t he r e 'd be no, uh, c ampaign i ssueth ere .Pres iden t . Right , t ha t ' s r i gh t . I 'm not wil l ing t o sugges t

it now, who's it gonna be. I'll s t a t e only t h a tit's not gonna be Ramsay Clark. (un in t e l l i g ib l e )Tough. You know, ju s t say t h a t ' s an i ss u e , t h a tth e FBI should no t be an i s sue in th e campaign, \"e' 1pick th e very bes t poss ib le man we can g et a t th a tt ime. And t h a t ' s it.


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10Presiden-t . Wha-t do you lean to a t th e momen t ?Ehrl ichman. v-vel I f I l i ke your i dea . I , uh, haven -t hada ch ance to t h i n k it a ll th rough .Pres iden t . He l l , d o n ' t mention it to anybody .Ehrlichrnan. Well , I won' t .Pres iden t . The d i f f i cu lty i s t h a t I have dec ided a f t e rour agonies over the Court t h a t from now o n ,and inc iden-t a l l y t h i s i s the main reason fo r

no t submit t ing it to the Bar in advance. ' -\Ie ' r ej u s t p lay ing every th ing very c lose to th e v e s tand you know, we, it's in ev i t ab le around here(unin te l l ig ib le) it doesn ' t a f f e c t you somuch as it does Kiss inger , of course , uh, t o

Presid en t .

a ce r t a i n e x t e n t (unin te l l ig ib le) Pe te rsen andthe r e s t , where 19 ou t o f 25 bureaus d id yousee t h a t , - in Washington sa id t h a t th e backgrounders were , uh, q u i t e o ff t h e b e a t and sofor th and so on . Well , f i ne , let's no t havethem.[7 MINUTE DELETION)Well , d ig ress ion , l e t me say t h a t I th ink t h a tthe b e s t way to do here i s t o - - I f ee l it wouldhelp us to , as we g et c l ose r to e l e c t i o n , t h e i ronly i n t e r e s- i s to , it seems to me t h a t every t ime we, it ge t s out th e f a c t t h a t some pooragen t over here (unin te l l ig ib le) say \-7ell t h a twas our l a s t scandal .

Ehrlichrnan. Yeah. I sa w t h a t .Pres iden t . ''''ho could poss ib ly have done t ha t ?Ehrl ichman. Well , you see th e problem.Pres iden t . Some guy who's t i r e d .Ehrl ichman. Some low- level guy, in th e NSC . .Pres iden t . Yeah.E h r l i ~ h r n a n . . ould have been c a l l e d - - -Pres iden t . Why th e NSC, might have been over in , uh ,McGregor ' s shop.

Ehrl ichman. It could could have been .


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Pres ident.

Ehrl ichman .Pres iden t .Ehrl ichman.Pres iden t .

""21""; ;.' "_ _ _

We' l l t a lk about t h i s an d th en , \ve 'll t a lk /"./about th i s \-lith you , Moore , and vle ' l l haveC/"uh, and Mitche l l , and, uh, no more. J u s tt hose .Yeah.And then maybe vle' 11 move th e damn th ing .A ll righty .It'd be g r e a t if he would do it. But \vhatthe h e l l \vould he do, what th e h e l l , \vhatcan he say to t h a t though? I f he ' s a lameduck.

Ehrl ichman. Ah , t h a t it would impair h i s , impair h is u s e -fu ln es s i s the one , i s the one t h ing t h a t occursto me. ll.nd it would be hard fo r him to maint a in i n t e r na l d i sc ip l in e if everybody knew

Pres iden t .

he was leaving and so on and so for th bu th e l l , everybody knows he ' s leaving now, youknow, it's j u s t a quest ion o f t ime. And th eya l l , they a l l now are on one s ide or anothero f e i t h e r con t r ibu t ing to o r slowing downh is depa r ture . And the r e ' s a , t h e r e ' s an i n t e r n a ~ war going on the re .Get t ing back to the t ax th ing .

" i ( ~ ; r" \ _ ;


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1/8/73Re FBI cur ren t s t a tus?

Gray c a n ' t cu t it need to change - - de t e r i ora t ionRuth may no t have the s t a tu r e & m is t iquePres iden t th inks Gray n ot able enough - - l a cks the energy

Have to f ind ano the r pos t fo r GrayPres iden t th inks he could do Bonn (o r OEP No)

Keep it open fo r himThorough run t h ru on appointments - - sub Cab

Don ' t be too hard on our f r i endsSoon as we ' r e ready - - have a go on appointments


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8E6REfTransc r ip t of a Recording o f a Conversa t ionof February 16, 1973 between Pres iden t Nixon,John Ehrl ichman and L. Pa t r ick Gray fromapproximately 9:08 to 9:39 a.m. in the OvalOff ice

Pres iden t :Gray:Pres iden t :Gray:Pres iden t :Gray:Pres iden t :Gray:

Ehrl ichman:Gray:Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :Gray:

Pres iden t :

Unin t e l l i g i b l e .Hi. How are you.Mr. Pres iden t . How are you s i r ?How are you? Nice to see you.You look grea t .Fine. How're you feel ing?Good.Fine .Mean, nas ty .(Laughs)(Un in te l l ig ib le ) a b i t happy Tha t ' s cause I go t you up ea r ly t h i s morning?A little b i t ea r l y .Let me ask you, j u s t how i s your hea l th , uh,(unin te l l ig ib le)Good.You had your opera t ion?It's good, Mr. Pres iden t . I cal l ed t h a tth ing Sunday morning when we wakened to goto Mass, I to ld Bea , I sa id t h a t damnobs t ruc t ion i s b ack and t h a t ' s exac t lywhat it was. Ther e wa s no evidence o ftumors, no cancer s , the re wa s j u s t a s impleadhes io n around t he r e .In o th e r words , as fa r as your ab i l i t y towork and everything, why, no ques t ion need

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February 16 , 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m. SECRET 2Pres iden t :(cont . )Gray:

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be r a i sed , i n o the r words y o u ' l l p u t i n th elong hours and a l l .No, I 'm still doing it - - d id it r i g h t inth e h o s p i t a l th e day a f t e r th e opera t ion ,I br ough t my execu t ive a s s i s t a n t up ands t a r t ed r i g h t away.L et me ask a couple o f o the r t h ings , uh,-having to do wi th , uh, vlhether we dec ideh e r e , uh -- as you probably are aware, uh,what t h i s , if you were to be nominated,and uh, I t h ink , o f course , I ' ve t a lked toJohn Mitche l l , abou t t h i s , (un in t e l l i g ib l e ) .Uh, you, obvious ly open up, before ad i f f e r e n t committee than th e Ervin Committee,the whole Watergate t h ing . Now th e ques t ioni s , uh, whether you f e ~ l t h a t t h a t , uh,t h a t , t h a t you can handle it, whethert h a t ' s a good th ing , bad th ing and sofo r th - - what I mean i s , th e Watergatecommittee , even though it has these ,(unin te l l ig ib le) and t h r ee wonderful j ack asses on it and so fo r th . It wi l l be badenough t h e r e , your committee would haveKennedy, and Tunney on it.Right .They'd l i ke to make, uh, uh, make qu i t e adea l abou t the t h ing . What I 'm ge t t i ng a ti s t h i s , uh, I 'm no t concerned about th esubs tance , a bou t th e fac t s coming o u t . I am ,a l l I 'm , a l l , I 'm th inking i s , - uh , whe the r it'sto the i n t e r e s t o f everybody conc e rn e d tohave , uh , th e uh, man who i s to be nominatedfo r D i r ec to r o f the Bureau be badgered a ndso fo r th on whether it's good fo r us to havet h a t s to ry to ld twice before tw o committees,uh, e t c e t e r a . So,uh, \vhy d o n ' t you give meyour judgment on t ha t . You must have though tabou t it.Oh, yes .Yo u must have thought a l so o f th e kind o fa s to ry you 'd have to t e l l when you 'd beexamined on it. Without being l imi ted toWatergate , they would probably ask you aboutsuch th ings a s , do you know abou t any o th e r

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February 16, 1973from 9;08 - 9:39 a.m. SECRET 3Pres ident :(cont . )

Ehr l ichman &

chings t h a t th e Bureau 's done, have yougot in to t h i s domestic wiretapping, whereinc iden ta l ly , pa r en th - - , p a r e n t h e t i c a l l y ,whatever you ' re hearing, it's t ime to s t a r tge t t ing out the t ru th there which i s , i s ,heighten the evidence t ha t i s on hand.It's the Robert Kennedy Adminis t ra t ion ,Jus t ice Department, when there were over ahundred a year . It's been c u t down to avery small amount. Then, I would be n ott h a t defens ive about it. I 'd say, yes ,we have to do it because, uh, t h i s involvesthe poss ib i l i t y o f , uh, v i o l e n t groups t h a twe've got t h i s what happened to Wallace,(un in te l l ig ib le ) jud ic ia l judgment .

Pres ident : (Unin te l l ig ib le)Ehrlichman: He can t e l l a s t rong s to ry .Pres ident : Yeah, say, look, what do you want us to

Ehrlichman:

Gray:Pres ident :

Gray:Pres ident :

do about th i s ? Do ou want to l e te t shot?Referred

I th ink the Bureau 's been very s tup id , I mustsay, an d alsoWe, uh .A ll t h i s domestic wiretapping, it isn'tj u s t , uh, it's anything to do with th eUnited Sta t e s and so fo r th , and o f c(un in te l l i ib le ) .

Urn - hum.Either one, e i the r ' s ide , you know, the re ' st h i s vio len t Jewish Committee t h a t wants tok i l l the Arabs and th e Arabs want to k i l l theJews and Chr i s t , they ' r e - -D.o c l d : 31443854 , ... . -Q C P C ~ T


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Gray:Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :Gray:

Terror i sm i s , i s a t r ag ic problem.Terror ism, h i j ack ing i s ano ther th ing .And you 've go t to g e t in t o t h a t . Right .Some of t h a t r equ i r es wire tapp ing . Higherand your au thor i ty , you r , your r e spons i b i l i t yin h i j ack ing , your r e spons i b i l i t y f o r , uh,t h i s . I t h ink t h a t you 've go t to ge t , andI want , John and me fo r nex t t ime .( u n in t e l l i g ib l e ) I 'm al ready h i t t i n g . Id o n ' t be l i eve we should be defens ive .F i r s t o f a l l , we' re do in ' l e s s . Second,it's uh, it's, uh, it's extremely neces sary .We must n o t be denied the r i g h t to use th eweapon. The idea t h a t vle' re wire tapp ing alo t o f p o l i t i c a l groups i s b u l l s h i t .Tha t ' s r i g h t and t ha t , s imply n o t - -L e t ' s , let's g e t back to th e fundamentalpar t o f it.It's, it's th e o ther - -You know the , you know the , you know th emood of the Congress , as you know t hey ' r e ,t hey ' r e panicked, depressed, by Watergateand so fo r th . \vha t should vle do, would ithur t o r help fo r you to go up t he re and bemashed about t ha t?Uh , I th ink pr obab ly , Hr . Pres iden t , I 'm th eman t h a t ' s in th e b e s t pos i t ion to handlet h a t t h ing .Why?Beca,use I ' v e cons i s t e n t ly ' handled it fromthe ou t se t , befo re Judge S i r i c a ' s o r d e r camet o p l ay , when we were t a lk ing only procedureno t subs tance , and I handled a l l kinds o fques t ions from a l l kinds of pres s people andthen when Si r i ca shu t the va lve , wh y I had toshu t up, even on , uh, th ings p rocedura l . I ' v ebeen i n t imate ly connected with it. I ' v e beenr espons ib le fo r qu i te a b i t of th e uh,decision-making i n so f a r as the Federa lBureau o f Inves t iga t ion i s concerned. Ifee l t h a t I would have taken a g r e a t e r bea t inghad n o t th e Ervin Committee been es tab l i shed

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February 16 , 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m. SECRET 11Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :

Gray:

Ehr l ichman:Gr ay :

Pres iden t :

Gray:

We t h ink , uh, we t h ink , Mr . Pres iden t ,t h a t if such an order came, it came toDeke De Loach from Lyndon Johnson and t h a tit .Wel l , then , De Loach must be brought in andp u t on aYeah, if Deke g o t it, he gave it.A ll r i g h t , he used to have it, h e ' s gonnal i e d e t e c t o r a l so .Um hum.He' s ou t , I know, b u t h e ' s still g o t t a t akeone. I mean, t h i s has go t ten - - I want t h i sd o n ' t you agree , John? We've g o t t o g e tto th e bottom o f th e damned t h ing .Well , I wanta, you know . I 'm no t gonna be in here denying it fromhe r e un les s the D irec to r o f th e FB I t e l l sme t h a t it's been checked .Righ t .The FB I cannot be above, uh , th e lavv on t h i st h ing .Oh, I know it, no, if t h i s was done we'veg o t t a look i n to it and if, even if th ea l l e g a t i o n i s t he re we've go t t a look i n toit.Was F e l t t he re in t hose days?No. He \vas n o t a t , uh, he may have beenin th e Bureau, I sh o u l d n ' t answer tha t tooqu ick ly .Who, would you p u t , uh, who, who do youth ink would be a f a u l t o f e i t h e r th e secondman o v e r t he re . Uh . C-------I t h i n k , I t h ink , Mr . Pres id e n t , t ha t , uh,my, my reconunendation to you nmv would beto con t inue F e l t b u t I th ink what I ' v e g o t

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February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m. &ECREf 12Gray:(cont . )

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:Gray:Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:Pres iden t :

Ehrlichm an:Pres iden t :Ehrl ichman:Pres iden t :Gray:Pres iden t :Gray:

Pres iden t :

to do i s , and which I 'm in the p ro cess o fdoing, i s come up with a n o v e r a l l c lan tosubmit to you and you and I should- d i s cus3t h a t p lan .The only problem you have on F e l t i s t h a tth e l i n e s l ead very d i r ec t l y to him, a ndI c a n ' t be l i eve it, bu t they lead r i g h tthe re and, uh, and, uh - -

l . ~ Well , you know we've t r i ed to t r ap h i m . -(Unin te l l ig ib le ) . th e t r ap i s , th e t r ap i s , s e t t r apsaround to see if we, to see if we can t u rnsomething up and, uh, and uh - -Well , \vhy d o n ' t you ge t in th e fellow t h a t ' smade th e charge , then.Wel l , maybe t h a t ' s (un in te l l ig ib le )Of course h e ' s , o f course h e ' s , he ' s n o ta newsman, on t h e o t h e r hand.No .He 's a l awye rTha t ' s r i gh t . fo r Time.I know who he i s , Mr. Pres iden t . . and, uh, wel l .I knew the r eason , I knew th e a l l e g a t i o n sex is ted and I t h ink , I th ink one t h ingMr. P r e s i d e n t , I would l i k e to say to you,because I be l i eve I must say it to you,thos e , those people ove r t he re a re l i kelittle o ld l a d i es i n t enn i s shoes and t hey 'vego t some of the most v ic ious vendet tas goingon and t h e i r goss ip m i l l i s . In th e (un in te l l ig ib le )

=

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Gray:Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :Gray:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:Gray:

Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :

In the FBI.In th e FBI.Sure , it's a , it's th e damnedest . . It's eaves by eaves ,e l s e .Tha t ' s r i gh t .I have been hear ingSul l ivan , good, badyou br ing him back?

ha t in g everybody

- - what about t h i s fe l lowor ind i f fe ren t? WouldWould t h a t ( un i n t e l l i g i b le )(I wouldn ' t br ing him back, a t a l l , I wouldn ' ttouch him a t a l l .Why not?His f i r s t words when he came back to Washington,in response to ques t ions from some of th epeople in the Domestic In te l l igence Divis ionas to \.,rhy he was here , in tw o words, "Forre.venge." Bi l l Sul l ivan was a very disappointedman when Hoover, uh, pu t Deke De Loach in th epos i t ion as Ass is tan t to the Direc to r .He f i r ed , I mean, yeah . . Hoover d idn ' t l i ke him.Didn ' t l i ke hi m and he began a t tack ingHoover. Uh, the guy, the guy i s too nervous ,he ' s , he ' s no t a r t i cu l a t e a t a ll, Coming back to , coming back though to Fe l t ,uh, it would be very , very d i f f i cu l t to , uh,have a Fe l t in t h a t pos i t ion withou t havingt h a t charge c lea red up.I . . .

And, i nc i den t a l l y , l e t me say t h i s , t h i s i s ,t h i s i s also a d i r ec t i ve , you should t ake al i e de tec to r t e s t on him.


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Pres iden t :(cont . )Ehrl ichman:Pres iden t :


Ehrl ichman:

Pres iden t :Ehrl ichman:Pres iden t :

Gray:

neces sary , you know, here , we c a n ' t haveany kind o f a re la t ionsh ip un les s we cant r u s t it and I ' v e , uh, . .Tha t ' s r i gh t . I used to have, and I , and I wouldexpect with the , the Direc to r in th e fu tu reto have a r e l a t i o n s h ip - - with Hoover ,he 'd come in about every month, he 'd bet he re a t breakfas t o r he 'd come in h e r e .He'd come in a lone not \'li th th e AttorneyGeneral . I 'd t a lk about th ings . I used tohave him - - my con tac t with him, it w a s n ' t ,you knm'l he 'd always sa id t h t he d i d n ' t ' 'lan tme to des igna te one person he ca l l ed , hecal l ed on th ings and , uh, r a i s i ng h e l l aboutHelms and th e Agency, CIA, and the St a t eDepartment , and so fo r th . Much o f it wasex t r emely va luab le b u t - - and it neverleak ed ou t o f he re , you knm'l t h a t he wasg iv ing me the s t u f f t h a t he had. And het a lked - - uh, Ehrlichman was my con tac t .Ehrlichman wi l l be in the fu tu re , you 'vego t ta have one man . Urn hum. t h a t w i l l n o t t a lk .Urn hum.I wouldn ' t th ink of having it to go, uh,bu t , uh, anybody e l s e .I could use Dean bu t he ' s too busy on o th e rth ings so IJohn , the po in t i s

(un in te l l ig ib le ) r e s t . The r eason , Pa t t h a t t h ~ r e l a t i onsh i po f the D ir e c to r , t o th e Direc to r and Pres iden ti s l i ke the r e l a t i o n s h ip o f th e Pres iden t andthe Commander, uh, uh, and the Chairman o fth e J o i n t Chiefs .Righ t , I unders tand.


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Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :

I , uh, as you know, uh, He l Lai rd , uh,i s , uh, very tough on t ha t , bu t , uh, hed i d n ' t - - he ahlays wanted to be in \" i thth e Chief s , and uh, - - and, uh, j u s tyes te rday , tw o days ago, I brought Hoorero v e r , d i d n ' t l e t anybody from th e NSCs t a f f come in . (un in te l l ig ib le ) Wasn ' ta h e l l o f a l o t we wanted to t a lk abou tt h a t they cou ldn ' t have heard, bu t I d i d n ' ttell 'em. The reason wa s t h a t I found t h i ssummer, fo r example, a t a t ime when r i g h ta f t e r we had th e Hay bombing, t h a t I hadp u t ou t severa l d i r e c t i v e s to cont inue tos tep up the bombing. because I knew t h a tt h i s , t h a t wa s about th e t ime to do it,to pu t the p res su re on to br ing about th enego t ia t ion . And Moorer to ld me t h a t hes e n t over a t l e a s t twelve recommendationst h a t neve r reached my desk because Lairdd i d n ' t want to go forward on it. Now,goddamn it, t h i s i s n o t going to happen.Now, with th e Bureau, it's the Pres iden tt h a t ' s the Direc to r , not t h a t you have theAttorney General as th e Direc to r . Nowhaving sa id t h a t , though, we can ' t do it,we cannot do it, unless t he re ' s t o t a lcommunication and t o t a l d i sc i p l i ne in t h a tBureau. And, h e l l , I th ink if we pick upTime magazine and see t ha t some th ing ' s (l eaked ou t , e i the r o u t o f the Bureau -- _______- - - -I unders tand l eak ing ou t o f th e CIA, thosegoddamned cookie-pushers - - bu t if it leakso u t o f th e Bureau, then the whole damn p laceough t to be f i r ed . Real ly , it shou ld , u n t i l ,j u s t move them a l l o u t to the f i e l d . I, Ith ink you 've go t to do it l i ke they d idin the war, you say whenever you know, uh,you remember in vlorld War I I , uh, the Germans,uh, if they went through these towns andthen one o f t h e i r so l d i e r s , a sn iper h i t oneo f them, they 'd l ine up the whole goddamnedtown and say u n t i l you t a lk you ' r e a l lg e t t i n g sho t . I r ea l l y th ink t h a t ' s whathas to be done. I mean I d o n ' t t h ink youcan be Mr. Nice Guy over the re .I haven ' t been. I th ink Mr. P r e s i d e n tThe leaks a re , l eaks a re occur r ing . There ' sfrom some p lace .

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Gray:

Pres iden t :Gray:Pres iden t :Gray:Pres iden t :

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Gray:Pres iden t :


Gray:EhrlichIDan:

Tha t ' s r i gh t , from some p l a c e , b u t as tod i sc i p l i ne , I have done th ings with r egardto disc ip l ine t h a t Mr. Hoover d i d n ' t dareto do. I took on Grap, and I met him faceto f ace , and I threw him r i g h t o u t o f th eFedera l Bureau o f Inves t iga t ion .Sure .These guys know they c a n ' t l i e . (Unin te l l ig ib le ) to me l ike they used to l i e to Hoover .

( un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) . I 'm I 'm notr ea l l y r e f e r r i n g to t h a t kind o f s tu f f .MID hID.Frankly , I am r e f e r r i ng to d i s c ip l i n e o fthe h ighes t s e n s i t i v i t y involving whatmay be p o l i t i c a l mat te r s .Oh , I know.

par t i san p o l i t i c a l mat te r s . But I ' vego t to know, fo r example, what ' s going on,uh, t h a t , uh, even, uh, now on occas ion ,uh, let's suppose something on th e PentagonPapers l eaks ou t , uh, l e t us suppose t h e r e ' sa l eak to a ce r t a i n member of the press .I go t ta have a r e l a t i o n s h ip here where yougo o u t and do something and deny on as t ack o f Bib les . ( ..._____Right .Okay.Righ t . And I unders tand.You go t ta g e t t h a t ' cause I d o n ' t haveanybody e l se . I c a n ' t h i r e some as sho lefrom th e ou t s ide .No. No.The, th e r e l a t i o n s h ip i s a s e l f - s e r v in g onein a sense . .


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February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m. SECRET 18Gray:Ehrlichman:President:Ehrlichman:

President:

Ehrlichman:Gray:President:Gray:Presiden t :Gray:Presiden t :

Ehrlichman:Presiden t :Gray:President:Ehrlichman:

President:Ehrlichman:

Uh huh.. . . an d Hoover used to ca l lAssert .And say, uh,here and uhWe knew for exam Ie l e t me t e l l

ReferredL ....._ : - - - : - _ ~ - - : - ___ ....,j:-n-d-s-o--H-o-o-v-e-r.."..g-o-t--Jus (____the information.Very helpful to us to know.MIn hrom.See what I mean?MIn hrom.

Referred

MIn hrom.See? That 's the kind of thing t ha t we'veju s t got ta know.~ d , an d We l ive in a dangerous world.Oh, I know t ha t .And, uh That ' s the enormously valuable par t o fth is re la t ionshipYeah.

for us.

Docld:31443854


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February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m. 19

Pr es id en t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :Gray:Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :

That ' s the kind of th ing where you d o n ' twant to have t h a t done by F e l t o r whoever ,C= =i s down the l i n e . I mean you j u s t , if ------________you have to iden t i fy it, by, you say, ReferredWell, j u s t l ike I wa s t e l l i ng Chief(un in te l l ig ib le)

Referred

Yes s i r . may be - - you it's t h a t s o r t o fth ing t h a t - - Hoover, of course , wa s ag rea t cops an d armed robbers guy in th rough

the whole e ra . He was over ly s u s p i c i o u s ~ ac tua l ly . But t h a t helped a b i t , becauseas a r e s u l t , he ha, - - he g o t us in format ion ,which i s extremely helpfu l , because you seethese p as t four years have n o t been aneasy - - we've had a lmos t the e n t i r ebureaucracy , including many in Defense whowere opposed to what we were doing inVietnam, opposed to Cambodia, opposed toLaos , opposed to May 8th , it worked, ando f course when the whole t ime fo r theDecember bombing, uh, we, uh, --and i n c i d en t a l l y , most of the White Houses t a f f wa s agains t i t . Uh, they d i d n ' t goo u t and yap about it bu t they were ag a i n s tit. I unders tand t h a t . My p o i n t i s t h a twith the media ' s ag a in s t you, \.;ith th ebureaucracy ag a in s t you, uh, with th ep r o f es s o r s , uh, with the church people andth e r e s t , l e t alone the Congress, it's ahard .damn f igh t . Now a t th e p res en t t ime.,we've, uh, we've come through with t h a tb ig i s s u e , uh, come through r a the r w el l ,and we have some a l l i e s from elif - - unexpectedsources dr iving the goddamned media r i g h tup th e w a l l . This POW ( un in t e l l i g ib l e )(un in te l l ig ib le) well - -Urn hmm.L et me. t e l l you, there were t imes an-an-and( s tu t t e r ing) and, and, Lyndon Johnson to ldme t h i s same th ing , when I f e l t t h a t th e only

b 6 C l a . 3 1 4 4 3 8 ~ 4


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February 16 , 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m. 22

Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :Gray:Pres iden t :Gray:Pres iden t :

We j u s t \'lant to be su re . We want to knowwho d id it, you know. Well l e t me sayt h i s , the , the the main th ing , the ma inpo in t i s t h a t , uh, as I sa i d , the uh, t he ,I th ink it's gonna be a bloody conf i rmat ionOh, I do, too .I th ink , a l l r i g h t , I th ink , uh, we j u s twanted you to know t ha t if, if you do gothrough it, you 've go t to be prepared tot ake the hea t and ge t bloodied up. But ifyou do go through a bloody one, you do gothrough a bloody conf i rmat ion let's r e m e r r ~ e r t h a t you ' re probably going to be in probablyfo r j u s t four year s .Tha t ' s r i gh t .And t hey ' r e gonna thrm'l you o u t and thenlet's do some good fo r the coun t ry . Asyou know, I would never ask the Direc to ro f the Bureau to do anyth ing t h a t waswrong, I mean, b u t I am ce r t a in ly goingto have to ask the Direc to r o f the Bureaua t t imes to do th ings t h a t are going topr o t ec t the secur i ty o f t h i s country . No problem. c...._---... . th i s country , t h i s , t h i s bureaucracy ,Pa t , you know t h i s , you knm'ln t h i s Radfordone , t oo , it's ~ r a w l i n g wi th , Pa t , a tbes t , a t b e s t unloyal people and a t wors tt r easonab le people .Treasonable people .~ v e have go t t o g e t them, break them.Right , I know t h a t . I agree .Th e way to g e t them i s through you. See?I agree . I have no problems wi th t h a t .We have to pick up peop le , some peopleTh a t ' s th e p r i c e of - -


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r-- - - - - - - - - - - -- - - -- - ---- --- .- - - - - .. . ....February 16, 1973from 9:08 - 9:39 a.m. 26

Ehrl ichman:

Gray:

Pres iden t :

Ehrl ichman:P r e s id e n t :

Ehrl ichman:Pres iden t :

Gray:Pres iden t :

Gray:

Pres iden t :

(unin t e l l i g i b l e ) th e Appropr ia t ionsSubcommit tee, uh.Probably John Rooney's people and th eSenate s i de , too .Well , why d o n ' t you - - Kle ind iens t \vi l lbe coming to the Cabinet meet ing , couldyou, and uh, could you and P a t mee t nowand work o u t t h a t th ing?Sure .Because I want, t ime i s o f t he essence .I 'd l i ke to ge t th i s done l i k e by today .A ll r i g h t . Yeah.t '7e've got to move ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e ) t h i smotion 's gonna l eak. This damn Gray 's al eake r . (Laughs)Yes I am, Mr. P r e s id e n t .(Laughs)(Un in te l l ig ib le )

Nixon l o y a l i s t . (uninte l l ig ib le )You're goddamn r i g h t I am.Congra tu la t ions .


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2/25/7314:30 phoneTalked to Ehrlichman re Times ' l a t e s t t h ing on FBI s t u f f

Had names o f Brandon and Saf i r eEhrlichman t o l d Zieg l e r j u s t s tonewal l it

Every th ing handled by Dean, Kle ind iens t , e t c .Ehrlichman and I s tay ou t o f it


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DRAF'r

SECRET

TRANSCRIP'r OF A RECOPJJI,JG OF A HEETINGBETNEEN 'i'HE PRESIDENT AND JOHN DEAN ONF E B R U A . ~ Y 27, 1973, FROM 3: 55 'r o 4: 20 P .H .

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, --L. _---- ,-- _ _

TRA]:SCiUPT OF A R:':CORDIl!G OF l-. !;:;;:::TIl(GBET\7.s::::! ,}'EE PRESIDi'C:J'l' fum J O : i : ~ DE;l.!! 0,,1y E ! 3 ? ' 1 J f l ! ~ ~ 27, 19B , ~ ' R o n 3:t)5 TO 1):20 ! " ! ':.

PRESIDE:i'I':DEA1J:P R E S I D E ~ ' : T :

DEAN :PRESIDENT:

DEAN:PRESIDE!':T:

DEAH :

PRESID2; 'J T:DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN :

Good af t e rnoon , John, how a re you?Pre t ty good . 'I , uh, discarded s o ~ e (un in te l l i G i b l e )won t t i n t e ~ r u ~ t us ( u n i n ~ e l l i g i b l e ) uh,. u h , d id you g e t your t a lk with K l c i n d ~ q n s t ye t?I j u s t had a good t a lk with him.Yeah, f ine . Have you got him , uh,pos i t ioned prop e r l y , the uh- -I th ink , I t h ink he i s .( U n in t e l l i g ib l e ) ~ l y - - a h , has he t a lkedy e t to Bal(er?N0 he hasn t t, h e , vh , he ca l led Sam Ervinand of fe red to come v i s i t 1i th bo t h he andBaker . And , uh, t h a t was done l a s t ~ e e k . Dh , huh.But he thought t h a t t iming would be bad toca l l Bcker p r i o r to the j o i n t meeting . Soh e says a f t e r I have t h a t j o i n t meet ing,I'l l s t a r t working my r e l a t i o n s h ip withBaker .We ll , Baker l e f t with me t h a t he wa sgoing to, going to s e t up a J o in t meet ingwel l , a n y ~ a y ( un in t e l l i g ib l e ) . I see . SoKl e i n d i e n s t has t a lked to , uh , uh, hehas t a lked to Ervin and Ervin s a id - -. ( un i n t e l l i g i b l e) .Erv i n h2.S l e f t it danglin?; and sa id , tt I ' llb e back in touch ': ! i th you . tl Dh, I t h inkwhat , what d i s tu r b s ne a litt l e b i t aboutBaker wa s h is move to p ut h is own man 1n 2.SminorI ty counse l , so quic!(}:v, Hi t h o u t ?:1yconsu l ta t ion as he had p r o ~ i s e d c o n s u : t a t i o n .And I t m to ld t h i s man may he a d i s a s t e ~ h i m se l f , the mincc ' i ty counse l .

I.,': l ~ : : C c: oril-..,-fii)#,t L \. l:,. , h


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FTIESIDEIIT:DEAN:

PRESIDEJJT: .DEAH:PTIESIDEllT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:DEAN:

PRESIDENT:DEAN:PRESIDENT:

He i s ? What do you mean to , i s he- -?Well h 8 's a , we]] I c a n ' t knock a ~ e , he ' s30, h e ' s 30 year s o f aGc , h e doesnr t know'a t h ing about ~ a ~ h i n G t o n .

Yeah .So we 'l l have t o - -

2

Baker , Ba ker says t h a t he pu ts t};e bla:r:eon th e Hhi te I ~ o u s ' 2 . He S i l / S , : h ? . t . c h : : ~ < : . c a l l i t s h is nalre, Korolor; os cal leci hir., 2:1d su[;; gesteclsomebody e l se , t h a t was a ~ r e a t ~ i s t a k eCourse I d i d n ' t know any th ing about t h a t ~ ~ p p a r ' 2 n t ly . "Well Baker a p ~ a ~ e n t l y i s qu i te open In h isf e l i c i t y I I'!ant to counse l \. 'ith you all, andI d o n ' t want to move u n t i l I ' ve t o ld you ~ h a t I 'm going to do, and then he d id j u s t th e{ . t : V e : . L b l - : . 0U.L .., \ ' : c . ~ ~ u . l - : ~ ( ; 1 . . t 0 . CJ:LC;, ~ ~ H : ; _ . . I c . . wanted a Deet ing with you. Vh, secondly:t h a t , uh, he suggcs ted K l e i n d i e n s t as acondu:i. t ...Th a t ' s c o r r e c t .. .. and t he re i s hope, I t h ink t h a t , uh, he Day- t ry to keep an eye on t h i s th ing and not l e tit g e t in to a t o t a l c i r c u s up t he re .Who? Ba\(er.Baker , Baker might .Well t h a t ' s what he i n d i c a t e d , he i nd ica ted b u to f course , o f course with the regard to h i s ,uh, s i t u a t i o n , h is pos i t ion t h o u ~ h , and withre gard to K l e i n d i e n s t ' s pOSi t ion, I , uh , I sho okK l e i n d i e n s t up u b i t bu t ( u n i n t e l l i t i b l e ) r e a l l yi s t he , i s the fe l low who ' s ~ o i n g to ~ e t h ~ r t most ou t of t h i s ( u n i n t e l l i ~ i b l e ) i s Mitche l l .Said o ther s a rc [':onna g e t hur t too , bu t 11:1 t cheJ 1i s , ah , the r e a l problem 15 whether o r n o tMi t c h e l l Id l l - -u l l , ~ ~ e t !llm on per ju ry .

.......) i J .... \ ... ...' ,.," I'-t t ' . ~ t ."

II

I

II


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- - - - - - - - - - - ~ - - " " ' - - - - .

,>

FEBRUAny 27, ]973, FROM ~ : 5 5 4:20 P . ~ . DEAN:P R E S I D E ~

DEAN :PRESIDENT:

DEAN:PRESIDENT:DEAN:

PRESIDENT:DEAN:PRESIDENT:DEAN:PRESIDENT:DEAN:PRESIDENT:DEAN:

PRESIDENT:DEAN:

Hum.I sa id now l ook , ah, p e r j u ~ y damnhard t h ing to prove too , f c r t ~ ~ a ~ c l y . B ~ t , uh, if you, uh ( u ~ i n t e l l i g i ~ l ~ ) keep f r o ~ poppin ' o r ~ I sa i d , wel l , I , T, I t a l k e d(unin t8 : ! . l ig ib le) lUd ya eye r t a l j ~ to l;i t c : - : e ~ l about t h i s . Never has .No.He says he has never t a lked to him . . Did y c ~ go in to th e Mexican p a r t o f it with i n ~ ~ e n s t o r did you get ...H e l l , I ...... in to any subs t ance a t a l l?

II ' ve a lways , I ' ve a l w a y ~ braced K l e i n d i e ~ s t in th e p a s t abou t , you 1-:00';1 , the pO, tent ia limpl i c a t i o n s o f what t h i s whole i n v e s t i g a t i s nth e :Bureau C O ~ ! ( t u c ; ~ ( ; ; 6 ~ I'IIICl.l- i;he L: .U. f \ 1,l-UJ.(l2 :. 0,Off ice was doing ...Th a t ' s r i g h t .. ~ . w h a t th e trial meant ...Th a t ' s rig ht .. . . I t h ink t h i s cou ld ,com e to haun t . .Th a t ' s r i g h t .I f it ge t s o ut o f hand, I d o n ' t want to g e tin to a lo t o f s p e c i f i c s .Yeah.I , a t t h i s l a s t meet ing, I j u s t s a t with h i ~ and sa id Dick, I sa i d , 1'1 don 1 t h ink I ~ h t to b r i e f you on every th ing I know. I d o n ' tt h ink ...

Th a t ' s r i g h t . t h a t ' s th e way to proceed.you going down the wrong t r a c k ,to have to tell you Hhy."

' l ' -- . ..... - ~ " " , ' " ? '. . . . ,'_ 'oj . . . . ""-' 'i-.. ' ..s. ... ' - - ' f:

But if I seeI 'm f,olng


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.>

FEBRUt,HY 27, 1973, ! ~ R m 1 3:55 ':::'0 11:20 P.J.i.

PRESIDEllT:DEAN:PRESIDelJT:

DEAl"; :PRESIDSHT:

DEAN:PRESIDSln:flEAH:

Urn hum. Good, good. What did he ~ a y ? He sa jd , " I 2 . ~ r e e , t h a t ' s the l':ay i t s ) ~ , - . . . : i c . s tand."

'O n the Executive P1'iv11eg8 o : ~ e , I l-Jork:?_: ;,,-:..th,uh, ta lked to John Ehrlichmqn a l i t t l e 2 ~ ~ d e c i ~ ~ d t ha t the l a s t paragraph, ~ h i c h uh , 5 h ~ : : : d bemodif ied so tha'c, jot covers "':-lat I ) ~ : 1 , g h - : : :-_a':e t osay if I ~ e r e as%ed a t a p r e ~ s c o n f e r e ~ : 0 , h e ' l lind ica te what it, but in , in a nut she ! : , ~ h , r a th e r than simnly , f l a t ly say tha t I t ~ : . . ~ ~ t h e twhat we should sey i s uh, th2t uh, that ~ ~ , tha tth e uh, th a t m e ~ b e r s of the P r e s i d ~ n t ' u 5 t a f f Iwi l l not appear before a formal s e s s i o ~ =f theC.orn 1:1ission, com:r:i tt!2es. I-Io\'Jever) u n d e ! . ~ :;:':-':)per,appropr i a t e circ:u:-:Jsta.nces tha t uh, infc:-::-,a ldiscuss ions , or so fo r th , can be c o n d ~ 2 : 0 ~ toobtain informat ion and so for th an d so : ~ - appropria te , I Viant, ' I t e l l YCyU ,'ihat yC',: ' r e ,wh a t wetre up aga ins t , r i gh t here ' s . uh,Kleindienst , K l e i n d i e ~ s t has indicated ~ 9 , T cion: 1: ~ ' ! \ ' ! h ~ t h e r ' ]-e c1id to -vou, t i l=.: i . l :",he f e l t t ha t t h ~ b a ~ k - u p pOSition here 2 ~ o ~ l d bean executive sessior! o f the COi:'Hnittee. : - : c : I 'sa id , i e l l , t ha t '::; a he l l -of 2, di f f i c '..:::" ':: ':;hingth e , fo r the me". Il I sa id , If 1 th ink t ! : : : ' ~ ':; heposi t ion should be on e of a, tha t our ;:::-si'::ionshould be one of a , a, a so lu t ion . T h a ~ y o ~ can ' t - -" r i t,ten interro.-:;atories (unintell:";: ' . 'sle)which i s unl ikely , of the two conmi t tee - - I . uh,the , the ranking cO:-:Jmittee m e m b ~ r s and t ~ e couns e l , Questloning any member of the ' . : ~ i ':;eHous e s t a f f , you knoi'!, un der proper , yo-...: i'::-,O\'T>r e s t r i c t ions ...Urn hum. , .and so fo r th and so on. I pat t ha t to Sakeras "le l l an d , uh, ( u n i n t e l l i g i b l \ . ~ ) said ~ : : : ' : : 2 r , Balcer probG.bly , uh , probably \'Ic\nts to ge'::, fo rth e same reason tha t Ervin d o c ~ , because thepUblic'!. ty an d so fort! l , ",ants to haul ; : i theWhite House s t a f f and ...Urn.... put theln in ' the glare of th ose l i g h t s .' r rue.


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FEBRUARY 27, 1973, FROM 3:55 TO 4:20 r.M. 5PRESIDEnT:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:DEAN:

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:

DEAN:PRESIDENT:DEAN:PRESIDENT:DEAN:

Vh, t h a t we cannot have. That we cannot h a ~ e . On the o the r hand, we c a n n o ~ have a s tonewal l ,uh, so t ha t it appears t ha t no t l c t t i ~ ~ them. And so I th ink we've got to be in i' pos i t i on t o , d id ya d iscuss t h i s ; ' ; i th i ~ e i n d i e ! l s tas to what the posi t ion ~ o u l d be on t h a t point?That , I th ink , J c h ~ , i s th e impor tant t h i n ~ t h2 tKle ind iens t has go t t a s tand Cod damn firm on.I d id , I t a lk ed to D i c l ~ a.bDut t ha t . I sa idt h a t , uh, " (he , t h e r e ' s a staternellt for thcoming.I don ' t know the t iDing on it."Yeah.The Department w i l l i s sue . I sa id t h a t , it'sfor tunate the c o ~ L e x t it's coming ou t in , becauseClark Mollenhoff so l i c i t ed the s t a t emen t in apress inqui ry t h a t ' s comins out in unre la tedcontext and no t r e l a t ed tc Waterga te per se .

And so that'll be out soon and t ha t w i l l def inewhat the ou te r pe r ime te rs a re . It a lso g ives - -Have Kle ind iens t say - t ha t nobody from the WhiteHouse s t a f f w i l l t e s t i f y befo re a committee.Tha t ' s r i g h t .Of cour se , t h a t doesn ' t he lp much a t a l l .Well, under normal c i r cumstances , if they ' r e - -. . . if they were nornal .Tha t ' s the , there ' s little, uh, s l i de in there .And t h ~ n what, in a prar i t i ca l mat te r I to ld fern

. would probably happen, would be much l ike the

. Flanigan s i tua t ion where t h e r e f s an e x c h a n ~ e andt he , the i s sues become very n a r r o ~ as to th einformation t h a t f s sought .


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FEBRUARY 2t, 1973, FROM 3: 55 TO 4:20 P . ~ . 6

P R E S I D E I ~ T :

DEAN:PRESIDENT:DEAN:PRESIDEHT:

DEAN:PRESIDEnT:DEAN :P R E S I D E ~ l T :

DEAN:

PRESIDENT :

DEAN:

PRESIDENT:DEAN:

Hel l , you \'lOrl,:ed " , i th , uh, if : lou'd t a l l ~ - : ; d toJohn E h r l i c h n a ~ , you ~ o r k c d a t r e v i ~ i n g ~ ~ 2 t l a s t parag,raph.Helve done t ha t .Oh, you've al ready ~ o r k e d with him on t h a t .Urn hum.And, uh, wel l , a f t e r I see h i s , uh, t h i sCard ina l Midi (phonet ic) t ake se abou t , 'I think f i ve , we ought to ge t r id of h i ~ inabout , ah, f i f t een or twenty ~ i n u t e s . Youmight br ing it down and, uh, you 've got it\ ' l r i t ten al ready?Yes, s i r .Then l e t me take a look a t it again .Dh huh .And w e ' l l approve the s ta tement , I d o n ' t wantt o - pu t it out r i ~ h t n o ~ becuase 1 , I , j u s tdepend s (un i r i t e l l i g ib l e ) I decide to do on t he ,do on t he , the_ press th ing .It'd probably be eas i e r no t to have thoseques t ions in your press conference p er se .I , I , would pr e f e r , t h a t ' s what I want to ~ o , i sto have t h i s s t a t e ~ e n t c o ~ e a f t e r the pressconfer ence , to say , if they ask anything aboutit, t h a t " I ' ve covered tha t in a sta ter1ent t h a tw i l l be i ssued tomorrow on Execut ive P r i v i l e g e .It ' s very compl ica ted (un i n t e l ! i g i b l e ) ttat's"'hat I had ln !:lind . I 'd r a the r not be o u e s t i o n N onth e stater.1ent. .Mollenhof f h imse l f wi l l debate you r i g h t t he r eon the sub j ec t .Righ t . So I'll say I ' m cover ing- -And I did t a lk to Mollenhoff yes te rday a t , uh,~ " ' - S I re quest .RoM-'s.


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FEBRUARY 2'7,_ 1973, FRO!'l 3 : 55 TO 1;:20 P.i-1 .

PRESID:::!!?:DEAN:

PRESIDEllT:DEAN:

PRES IDElTT :DEAN:

PRESIDENT:DEAN:

PRESIDENT :DEAN:PRESIDEl'lT :

DEAN:PRESIDENT:DEAt'):

. . . (u nin te l l ig ib le ) \"ant to 1001-: j.n th0 c a s ~Te l l h i ~ r want to look in the case ~ n d I ~ a d an exter.ded disCL:ssion ,.;1 tr: i , i r. onExecut.ive Pl'iviler:s- question . 0:- C O \ ; ' 3 ~ : .,di f f e r s somel,'hat '1'02 i'i),erc ,:e' re CO:i. LnG ,:; ',but he a g ~ e e s t h ~ t c e ~ t a i n l y the P r e ~ l r l e n t ~ a s the ler;al autJlori ty to do ~ 1 : 2 t and nr: agree.salso that it's , uh, it's--Well, in h is case , I mean what was t a l k i ~ ~ about?We l l , he ~ a y s , he thinks tha t a l l ~ h i t e E e ~ s e s t a f f should be ready to run up to th0 Hil l andt e s t i fy and he asked ...(Un i n t e l l ig ib le ).. . as to what they ' re doing an d i t ' s a rare~ c e p t 5 . c ~ ' : : ~ ~ t ~ ? P ! ' ~ s i d ' 7 ; ! t i) -nr{\l: -ps t.hepr i v i l ege . I s2.id , !lClark, that ' c. get to ::::::th e other W2.y around . The s t a f f can ' t o p c ~ a t e i f th ey ' re going to be queried on eV8ry b ~ ~ of communication tn",:!, ha d '.'lith the Pr


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They, o f course , w i l ~ uh, t hey , they , they , Iguess , we, we would not ~ o T ~ a l l y c l a imExecut ive Pr iv i l e g e f o ~ C a ~ i n e t o f f i c e r s would.we?Uh, no s i r . OnlY, only 1n, say th e r a ~ c i n s t a n c e s where we ha?c a l ready , where t ~ e y ' ~ e going fo r i n f o r ~ a t i o n which should be pr o t ec t e d .I nves t i ga t i ve f i l e 3 , uh, c l ~ \ s s i f i e d n a t e ~ i a : ! . 0::"say , a id progra;r:s 0 : ' s o ~ e t l l i n g , ,:11e:1 \'ie d:'d .:!. tin the l as t - - IRS f i l e s . Those are the i n s t a n c 9 sin which we 'v e done it .Yeah.And theyl re q u i t e , uh, t r a d i t i o n a l ~ n d , a ~ d ahould be e ~ p e c t e d by the Congress ~ h e n t ~ e y goa f t e r i n fo rmat ion l i ke t h a t .I t h i nk , I t h in k went over to K le in d i e n s t , Isa id ju s t to show you how th e worm t u r ns here ,What we went t h r o u ; ~ 1n th e H1 5 S casco ~ n e r e . we were , i n v e s t i g a t i n g , n o t , uh, esp ionage bya po li t i c a l , what o ~ e p o l i t i c a l organizat : 'onaga i ns t ano ther , but a charge o f e s p i o n a ~ e a g a in s t the Unit ed St a t e s of America , wt ich wasa h e l l o f a l o t more se r i ous . And in t h a t case ,th e Department o f Jus t i ce , the White House, th eFBI to t a l ly s tone i', a l l ed th e committee. The FBIwould no t f u r n i s h any i n fo rmat ion and here th eFBI had a chance to f u r n i s h i n fo rmat ion to t h i scommit tee .Yes.That l s according to G r a y ~ r i gh t?Righ t .A ll r i g h t . The Dep?-rtr::ent o f Jds t i ce r e ~ u s e d to g ive us any informat ion a t a l l and o f c o u r ~ e th e White House used Execu t ive Pr i v i l ege a ~ d the p r e s s was all on t h e i r s ide . You see t h a t,';as ...Tha t ' s r i g h t .


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But you, o f course , know th e inc iden t o f h i s , uh,( un in t e l l i g ib l e ) t he , the famous inc iden t o f thebugging o f our plane . ' . rhat 's r i g h t .which, uh, maybe-- , they r ea l ly knm.; i s t r u e . Andyou know th e in s t an ces t h a t they t a lk about , aboutt he , uh, a bout our bugging, th e FBI s tu f f , b e l i ev eme, I know ex ac t l what thos e \'Tere

Referred

Urn hum. Now t hey ' r e so - -And then , o f course , the other th ings involved l eak so u t o f th e NSC, where we , they bugged f la ig, Lake,o r Halper in , I mean. But t h a t \"a5 a l l .T h a t ' s r i g h t .We were as l im i t ed as h e l l , I mean Hoover, goodGod, we could have used hi m f o r ev e r . He' s , h e ' s - b u t Johnson had j u s t apparen t l y , j u s t used them a l lth e t ime fo r t h i s s o r t of th ing .T h a t ' s what I 'm l earn ing .t h i s -- T h er e ' s more and more o f

r!II

r

Ivho's, who,'s, who from th e FB I i s t r y i n g t o p u t o u t t h i s s t u f f on us? C __

(jIi

God, I t hought , I wish I knew, Mr. Pres i d en t , uh.You d o n ' t b e l i ev e it's a - -I ' v e heard t h e r e ' r e , t h e r e ' r e s ev e r a l names t h a t a rebant.ered o.round. I , I t r i e d fo r example, to t rack th e l ehfYou d o n ' t th ink it's Sul l ivan? ;.N, no, I , I conf ron ted Sul l ivan , as a mat t e r o f f a c t ~ '--1r i g h t a f t e r t h i s , I s a i d , " B i l l , " I s a i d , uh, I

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ca l led hi m in to my o f f i c e , I sa id , "I want -to tellyo u \"hat: Time Nagazine sa id they have." Ilis re


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. . . i t was there once he cam0 in , which i s notfactu a l .Well, there w e r e n ' ~ any.T h e r ~ w e ~ e none there when he came in .Well, thre e years ~ g o tha t th i s happen ed . . .That 's r igh t .. . . and there hasn ' t been a God damned ti;.j_nr:s ince;That ' s correct .Right.That 's correct .Another thing yo u can say . too. John .t he fact that a l l th is ha d to do with the war ...I knoH .. . . and now the war i s over .Now - -Now Johnson, on the other hand, went bugginghis pol i t ica l . opponents , and every son-of-a ,everything you can i ~ a g i n c . We'Ve b een, th a t ' st he problem , we ' re get t ing a rea l bum rap, a r e n ' tl'le?

We cer t - - , we are get t ing a t e r r i b l e rap , ah- -You stop to think' of, ',-1.e got r:id, \'! 0 Got r idof the fI. i"my bu g s , ;;e go t , you 1m0\'.' t ha t f \ . r ; ~ y a 11,espionage busines s , intel l iGence business ,we got , you r e m c r n b ~ r that?That ' s r ight .Ull , vie' ve l ind ted :;he YEI thinr.:,j to nat ionalsecur i ty bugs, to v0ry, very cer ta in few,probably too few.We're , we're now ( u n 1 n t e l l i ~ i b l c


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But somebody's gonna ge t a shock on e day , and t h e y ' l l\vonder why we d idn 't bug 'e m huh?' l 'hat I S r i g h t . \ve a re g e t t i n g a bad r ap .\ '7ell , fo r examp l e 'l'he f a c t i s - -

as you kn ow , as yo u knmv, Hoover d id bugMart in , Mar t in Luther King.T h a t ' s r i g h t , I \V'as awar e o f t h a t a l so .Well , Ch r i s t yes , Hoover used to tell us about whath i s , \vhat a , a moral ly depraved s o n e -o f - a -b i t ch hewas -- And Johnson probably ordered hi m t o do it,now let's face it.Um hum.So, ah , I d o n ' t , wel l yo u c a n ' t blame Hoover. I 'm surehe d i d n ' t do it unless , ah , Johnson asked him to ,b u t Johnson .. as t h a t kind of a man, he used th e FB Ia s h is own p r i v a t e p a t r o l , b u t God, ~ " e 'v e been asc a r e f u l , I ' v e , I ' v e t a lked to Hoover any number o f t imesb u t , , ,e 've never ordered anyth ing l i k e t h a t . But he'llcome in with h is little t h i n g s .

Referred

Johnson, ah . Huh?

Johnson, used th e FBI to cover t h e , ah , NewJer sey convent ion before he dropped o u t , o f f i c i a l l y ,he had a l l th e d e leg a t e s - -He did?T h a t ' s r i g h t , which i s kind o f f a n t a s t i c .Su l l i v an knows t h i s ?

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Urn hum, Sul l ivan i s a ~ e a l t h - o f - k n o w l e d ~ c a ~ d th e more I , you know , s o r t o f General ly c h a twi th him about th e se p ~ o b l c m s , the morecomes ou t he ' s th e man t h a t can a l so d08ument- -Why d id H o o v e ~ have a f i g h t with him? It's ah e l l o f a mis take r o ~ Roover to do t h a t .Sul l iv an knows to o ~ u c h . T h a t ' s r i g h t , ah .Why d i d n ' t Sul l ivan squawk?I t h in k S u l l i v a n proba t ly i s l e y a l to t ~ e ...... i n s t i t u t i o n - -. . . th e i n s t i t u t i o n and d o e s n ' t ~ a n t - -Somebody over t he r e i s n o t , can he he lp youf ind o u t who the h e l l i s not? I s n l t itp o s s i b i l i t y ...He a d v i s e d - -... th e guy t h a t - - T i ~ e Magazine ' s l awyer ,don l t th ink it's h i ~ ?

(you

He s p e c u l a tes , and , th e speCUla t ion i s ~ a l l y , i s i t ~ e i t h e r S u l l ivan h imse l f , Mark F e l t ; ~ ~ l O . is--I know, th e lawy e r says t h a t .T h a t ' s r i g h t . Ah, and th e o th e r one i s a f e l lowTom Bishop who is now depar ted , who wa s incharge o f t h e i r pub l ic in forma t Jon and ~ ' . ' h e r e - -Does he know abou t t h e s ~ t h i ngs , Hoover d i d n ' ttell peop le l i k e ttat, abou t these t h Jn g s ...No.... d id he?For example , the '68 t h i ng , I t ry- , wa s t r y i n gto de te rmine who might know abou tYeah, ah ... , ,',\':":':...... , .

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Hoover, apparent ly ...IIh, I e;uess.... Hoover apparent ly to ld Pat Coyne, Patr ickCoyne, who used to be on the NSC s t a f f .

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r kn01'I, I know, I bel ieve , i s he still l iv inG?I do n ' t , I don ' t know the Qan.He to ld Pat Coyne?He to ld Pat Coyne ; Coyne to ld R o c l ~ e f e l l e r ; Rockefe l le r re layed t h i s to Kiss inge r , th i s waso ne channel t h a t might have it in a publ icdo main. The o the r i s when Sul l ivan t eok therecords , or a l l the documen t s in connect ionwith t h i s , ah, out of h is of f ice , and out o ft l lP RUYJP?ll he . 1:30 i n 8 t ~ t : C ' ~ - t ; t ! ~ e , . r ! ! ~ ~ 2 . ! : g f : ~ ~ Fie ld Off ice to des t roy a l l t he i r records ,wh ic h they d id . Ah , Hoove:c , incensed a t thj ,s ,t h a t he c ou ldn ' t r econs t r uc t , t ha t he didn ' th ave the r ecords and couldn ' t get them fromSu l l i v a n , t r i ed to have the Washington ~ i e l d Of f i ce r econs t r uc t them, which t h ~ y cou ldn ' t .As a r e s u l t of t h ~ t movement and f l a i l i n garound by Hoover, a lo t of people in the agencywere aware of what had happened and it wa s on::-.:::.:.:----th e grapevine. (..____Oh , t h at ' s when it happened then , the n igh tSU ll ivan l e f t , he took the r ecords wi th him- -He took t he records with him . . .A ~ d t h a t the only r e c ~ r d s there were? . and t h a t ' s the only records there are .He d id it out o f , uh , I mean , piss e d o f f a tHoover .No , ah , h e wa s doing it tp . . .P : : ~ o t e c t . . .. protcc t , ah- - , r-:-'(

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. . th e Bureau.No , h e was doing it to pro tec t th e WhiteHouse and the people over he re .Oh , oh , but fo r Chr i s t sakes , Hoover ,(unin t e l l i g i b l e ) . I :::c: an J(Hoover never got h is hands on th e r e c c r ~ s i sNhat h appe n ed . Sul l ivan has tb


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Well , let me tell you where I ; where e l sc ' Iheard t h a t from. ah, was Sandy S ~ l t h , ah , I hadt o l d , no t , n o t th e lawyer b ~ t s o ~ e b o d y e lseto ld F e l t wa s h is source ...Yeah .... and t h i s came to Henry Pe t e r sen , ah , HenryPe te r s en ' s an o ld h and over the r e , as you know,.and, ah , b le s s h ~ s sou l , he i s a va l uab l e manto us. Ah--Yeah. What d id he say?A.h, he sa id t h a t he wouldn ' t pu t it p a s t F e l tbu t , ah , the o the r t h ing I Kas t a l k i n g toKle indi e n s t about t h i s ~ h e n I wa s over the r e , hesa id if F e l t i s th e source ...Yeah .... and if we gets F e l t way out of j o i n t wea re in se r ious t roub le .'Cause he knows so much?He knows so much.Hha t ' 5 he knm.;?1 d o n ' t know, I d i d n ' t ask fo r s p ec i f i c s wi t h ,ah, he s a i d , one t h i ng , he sa id he c o ~ l d knock.Does he know abou t Sul l i van s tu f f ? (Yes, he knows about t h a t . I ca l l ed F e l t , askedhim what he knew about it and he was, fo rexample, very coo l ;rhen I , I E;aid, II Ther e ' s aTime Magazine s to ry running , Mark, ah , t h ~ t in '68 . . .Yeah .o r , or in '69 and '70 . . .Yes.


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and so on and so for th . He saJO, uh, I said"True or false?" ar.:l r.e sa id , "True . 11 I sr.:!';:)""HOl'l do you k n o ~ tr.:::.t? l1 anei I s2.io , III'v e n0- .r 0! "heard of tha t be for'::: . 11 He said , "l::e ll, if YCclt a lk to Bi l l Sul l iv an , h e ' l l t e l l y o ~ 2.11 a tou ti t . 11 li her. he ' diei sor t , of a gener2.1 , hepaint ed a general picture about i t . Ah , bu tjus t cool as 2. c u c u : ~ : b e r 2.bm,it i t . Ah--.r----And wh a t does he say a b o u ~ Time, a ~ a i ,does h e , i s he g o n n ~ stand up for the denia l?He say s , 11 John , 11 r,,= sa id , ah, I sa id l I } ' i r s tof a l l , I don ' t, I don 't bel ieve th is couldhappen, 'I I ",as rro'.:ecting us, as fa r as . . .Yeah ." , doub t ing "ihat hs 'had sodd. He sa id , III'Tell,John. as fa r as I ' m concerned, our , cur phone c a l ~ i s t o t a l ly off tLe record , \',e never h2.d it , I! sot ha t ' s a good on e to watch, j u s t r i g h t there .In othe r words, you can ' t blow th e whis t le ODFe l t , ju s t l ik e you can ' t bIOI' ; the l l J i s ~ l e c :,the son-of-a - bi tch out there , the yeoman, inthe J a c k A n d e r s o ~ case, r ight?That ' s r i ght , but there \vil l becor.;e , ah , the::,e~ i l l co me 2. day w h e ~ Gray's comfortably inthere , \rhen othe r things come pas t . ti1a t ah- -Like \'That?I th ink t ha t Gray can, a t some poin t whe n , ifth i s sor t of th in g continues , once h e getsthrou gh h is c o n f i r ~ a t i o n I don ' t know why hecouldn ! t himse lf s?y l1I.' m gonna t al-::e a l i edetec t or t e s t ahd 1 1m gonna ask everybody in nyimmediate shop to take one and then ~ e ' r e cannago out and ask some of the oth er agents to takethem . . .Jus t fo r l eakage ,

. t t , , , 'as for le akaise: , bec auc;c t h i s , th t s onlyhur t s , ah , th i s ,.:);ol e in st i tution, l1(P ause )

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\'lhere do you , ah , \,:her'e do you 0 t 2 . r ~ d on the ,hO l'i I ' lill "I e l eave i t on Kleindien s t hear::;, ,with reGard to the, tha t ' s what t h e r e . ~ h , l e tput i t th is ~ a y . You take t h ~ r e s p c ~ s ibi l i t y for Kleindienst , l ' re gonna keepEhrlichman and H a l d e G a ~ out of i t - - o u ~ of th e i r -an y re la t ionship wi th Kleindienst . You s h c ~ l d ha ve it only, but you 've go t to watch h i ~ a ~ d brace him--, on the E ; ~ e c l ~ t i v e ? r i vi lege th: ' r :g,tha t you, tha t you t e l l him what the l ine i s . I have , I have ...... and where he ' s to s tand .I have told him and I I ve I said HIt IS 'gonna be i!7lportant. 11Di d n ' t he ra i se the idea o f t h e i r hurrying th eExecutive Session refusal?No, he did not .All r igh t . t e sure he knows what the back uppos i t ion i s , which (u nin te l l ig ib l e ) , as Iunderstand it , if we went in there under properah, ah, res t r i c t ions , allO\'I, uh, t\vO cODlTlit'.;eemembers to ' come down. I s tha t what you wo uld d o ~ I th ink we wo-, ou ght , if I think we ought todra\v t he l ine a t \,rritten in ter rogator ies . I th i,jthe posi t ion should be tha t you were holdingnothi nr; back, infor!7lation \


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1\h - -Good, we ll l e t me say about uh , abo'..lt F e l t , itsounds as if he kn ow s , it sounds as if muybe h e ' sKind o f \ll a tch it l i ke a ha..,k, H r. P res i d e n t ("-----Yeah.

and I j

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