DISTRICT ST. JOHNS RIVER WATER MANAGEMENT 1...
Transcript of DISTRICT ST. JOHNS RIVER WATER MANAGEMENT 1...
1656
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
ST. JOHNS RIVER WATER MANAGEMENT REGULATORY MEETING
HIGHWAY 100 WEST PALATKA, FLORIDA 32178
May 10, 1994 2:45 p.m.
Items 126 and 127
Application by Coy Koontz
Members of Governing Board present: PATRICIA T. HARDEN, Chairman LENORE McCULLAGH, Vice Chairman WILLIAM SEGAL, Secretary REID HUGHES JOE E. HILL JAMES H. WILLIAMS DENISE M. PRESCOD
Members of Staff present: KATHRYN MENNELLA, General Counsel TONY COTTER LIZ JOHNSON JEFF ELLEDGE CHRIS SWEAZY HAL WILKENING JOHN WEHLE HENRY DEAN CHARLES MYERS
DISTRICT
ALSO PRESENT: Bill Fogle, for Applicant Coy Koontz, Applicant
1.
21 REPORTED BY: Mary K. Shotts, RPR, Deputy Official Court Reporter
22
23
24
25
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1657
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2 '(
May 11, 1994 2:45 p.m.
MR. ELLEDGE: Getting back to the regulatory
agenda, items 126 and 127, they are found in the
addendum. This is an application by Coy Koontz to
construct a commercial development in the
Econlockhatchee Basin. The project involves the
filling of 3.4 acres of wetlands and .3 acres of ....".
uplands in the Riparian Habitat Protection Zone of
the Econ River System for commercial development.
We are recommending denial of this permit
application for reasons that I will state.
First, I'd like to show you pretty much where
this property site is in terms of the basin. You
can see it's on State Road 50 just east of the
eastern extension of the East-West expressway. The
Econlockhatchee River is where on this, Liz? Can
you put your finger on where the river runs?
MS. JOHNSON: It joins up with the Econ over
here, over here in the corner.
MR. ELLEDGE: And this is a little tributary to
the Econ. This is on State Road 50 and it's east of
the East-West Expressway. Next, Liz. The project
site consists of both forested and herbaceous
uplands and forested and herbaceous wetlands.
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242 ~.":
1658
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
The green cross-hatched area is wetlands, all
in the Riparian Habitat Protection Zone of the Econ.
The area at the upper part of the drawing, that's
got the black cross-hatching, is the area proposed
to be developed. The read and blue areas are
uplands. The red is uplands that are within the
Riparian Habitat Protection Zone and the blue areas
are other uplands. As you can see, they're ~
proposing to develop approximately 3.7 acres, I
believe, there towards the upper part of the
drawing. And the little roadway is actually a
cul-de-sac that runs off of State Road 50. This
property does not front directly on state Road 50.
It fronts on this little access road. Thanks, Liz.
In reviewing this project against our permanent
criteria we've got both the MSSW and the dredge and
fill permits here. Both of our rules address
wetland impasse. The surface water permitting rule
requires that applicants demonstrate that their
proposed surface water management system will not
adversely effect the functions that wetlands provide
to fish and wildlife.
In the dredge and fill rule there is a seven
part public interest test. One of those public
interest criteria is that the projects will not
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1659
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
'. 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4
adversely -- well, addresses the conversation of
fish and wildlife. In reviewing this project we
found that the project is going to result in the
loss of 3.4 acres of wetlands and also
some adjacent .3 of an acre of upland that are RHPZ.
This will adversely effect the conservation fish and
wildlife of the Econlockhatchee Basin and will
adversely affect the functions that wetlands provide
for fish and wildlife.
In addition, in the dredge and fill criteria we
found that it will adversely affect the condition of
these wetlands and their ability to -- it will
adversely affect the functions being performed by
these areas in the current condition of these
functions. Therefore, the project without
mitigation does not meet our permanent criteria.
The applicant proposes mitigation to preserve the
remaining part of this parcel, the Southern part of
the parcel, which is approximately nine -- is it 9.2
acres of wetlands and the adjacent uplands, a little
over 10 acres total.
The staff in reviewing this mitigation plan has
found that it does not offset the loss of functions
provided by the 3.7 acres that are being developed.
Now, you can put up the next. We have
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1660
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
suggested to the applicant ways for this project to
possibly meet the criteria and I'd like to go
through and discuss a couple of those. The on-site
mitigation does not meet the rule requirements. We
would suggest that development of up to .7 of an
acre of the wetlands and .3 of an acre of the
uplands at the northern part of the parcel could be
accomplished and meet our criteria with the --preservation of the remaining portion of the parcel
of mitigation. That's one option for permitting
this project.
Other options for permitting would all include
off-site mitigation. We've got a couple of examples
of parcels in which off-site mitigation could occur.
The first parcel is the Hal Scott Preserve. This is
a district owned piece of property on the
Econlockhatchee River in Orange County. This shows
you the relationship of this parcel to the proposed
project site. It's approximately four, four and a
half miles southeast of the project site. There are
on the Hal Scott Preserve some existing roadways on
which culverts have been crushed and become
ineffective. The replacement of these culverts
could enhance the hydrology in the systems and
provide some enhancement of the wetlands and uplands
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1661
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
o
on the Hal Scott parcel.
The next alternative is on the Demetree
property. This shows you the relationship of the
Demetree property to the project site. Again, it's
north, northeast of this project site approximately
six or seven miles away, several miles north,
northeast and I believe the Demetree property is in
Seminole County.
In any event, in the Demetree property there
are existing ditches that connect the wetlands and
adversely -- we believe they adversely affect the
hydrological condition of those wetlands. These
ditches could possibly be plugged or otherwise
restricted to restore the hydrology of the wetlands
system. We would recommend that if there were an
off-site mitigation plan developed and proposed for
this site that it resulted in the enhancement of 50
acres or more of wetlands that that could in
addition to the preservation that the applicant has
proposed be adequate to offset the impacts of this
proposed project and could make this project
permitable.
We just wanted to make it clear to the Board
that we have looked at alternatives for this project
site. There are ways that the project could become
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
)
1662
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
I
permitable with adequate mitigation or by reducing
the impact on the project site or some condition of
those two.
We have informed the applicant of some of these
alternatives. The applicant has not responded in
writing as required by the dredge and fill rule of
whether or not they would implement any of these
alternatives.
I have Liz Johnson here who is the ES reviewer
in this project, if you have any questions of her.
Pat also is here and Kathryn Mennella and Tony
Cotter have worked on the staff report as well, if
you have any questions of them or myself. We have
the applicant here. The applicant's agent Bill
Fogle is here to address the Board as well.
Are there any questions of the staff? Yes.
MR. SEGAL: Mitigation options that you have
offered, you have any idea what the costs are?
MR. ELLEDGE: No. We have not prepared an
estimate of the cost on these sites. I think it
would be very minimal. We're talking about putting
some culverts in, a roadway on one property and
flooding some ditches on the other side. It would
be very minimal cost. Those would have been
coordinated with the district and would be subject
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1663
• 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
to your approval since those are district lands.
But we've tried to find some options that we thought
were practicable for the applicant to perform and we
feel that they would be practicable.
MS. HARDEN: Okay_ No more ,questions at the
moment. Mr. Bill Fogle requested to speak.
MR. FOGLE: Good afternoon. My name is Bill
Fogle, and I'm a civil engineer, president of Civil .-:.
Design Group in Orlando, Florida. Address is 401
South Rosalind Avenue, Suite 200. I've been
retained by Mr. Coy Koontz to represent him both in
the dredge and fill permit and service water
management permit application before the Board.
This site is probably the most restricted site
and most regulated site acreage-wise that I've ever
run across in 23 years of doing business in the
state of Florida. A little example of the property
in question is aerial photograph -- I'll pass it
around so you can get a better look -- outlines the
parcel in question. Approximately 80 to 85 percent
of the site over the years has had increasing
wetland regulations.
The owner purchased the property in 1971 with
no environmental regulations. At the time he had
full use of the property. The advent of the initial
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1664
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
9
wetland regulations followed by the adoption of the
Warren Henderson Act, followed by the adoption of
the Econ rule which has put approximately 80 to 85
percent of the property regulated from any use.
The owner is not a commercial developer. He's
not trying to be a commercial developer. He's been
trying to sell this property for the last five years
that I know about. The only way we can make this a
viable piece of land that he can put on the market
and sell is to try and reclaim a portion of his
property out of the wetlands.
The portion of the property that we're trying
to reclaim is an area that lies north of an existing
powerline easement between Highway 50 and the
powerline easement. If you take a look on the
ecosystems the whole system out here has been
fractured. We have Highway 50 cuts it and we have
the extension of the East-West expressway cuts it
and we have a powerline cut through it. We've got a
25-foot wide canal going through it, a 10 by 10 box
culvert dumping water down the ditch on the west
side of the property. This whole area h~ been
extremely fractured over the years.
The advent of the additional regulations have
made any use of this property outside of the funded
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1665
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
10
wetlands absolutely impossible. The only hope this
property owner has is to try and reclaim a portion
of the property to do that we've instigated the
dredge and fill permit application to raise a
portion of this land above the several feet above
existing ground to pull it out of the high ground
water table that constitutes and supports the
wetland vegetation that's on-site. This area is a
100 percent out of 100. Your flood plain that we're
dealing with says there's not a flood plain issued
involved in our proposal.
Again, we have approved developments called
University Meadows and Huckleberry that both south
and west property lines that again fracture the
ecosystem. So let me go ahead and pass this around
where you can take a little closer look at what
we're talking about, and please pay a little
attention to how fractured that ecosystem is that
we're dealing with.
We have a another chart that basically shows
the upland portions of the site which are in the
orange and green similar to the exhibit that you had
up there. The cross-hatched area we have in here is
an existing powerline that's mowed once or twice a
month so that vegetations been eliminated. We have
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1666
• 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
11 "
a large ditch along the west property line. We've
had increased runoff from the north, from the south,
from the east that has all affected and damaged this
property.
Again, the remaining lands that we in 1971 had
100 percent usable property, now basically this is
the only thing that he can get to without building a
quarter of a million dollar crossing of the wetland ....".
to get to approximately one acre he has in the
corner.
He's been effectively right now regulated out
of any use of his property. He's come back and
said, okay, what can we do? Our first attempt is to
try and reclaim all the land above the 100-year
flood plain north of a natural slough that runs
through this location.
After preliminary meetings with the water
management district, we agreed to move to minimize
the impact. We pulled it north of the powerline
that basically cuts this ecosystem and isolates this
area already. In order to mitigate this damage, the
owner has agreed to dedicate a conservation easement
over 11 and a half acres of the remaining piece of
his property. Mitigation scheme would take forever
any development potential off the bulk of this
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1667
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
12 ~
property in order to gain some rights to develop the
front portion of this property that's adjacent to a
frontage road that was built as part of the
East-West Expressway construction.
The staff is basically recommending denial of
this for three reasons. One, it's a refusal by the
own~r to reduce wetland impacts or to increase
offered mitigation. How much do you wa~? He's
giving up approximately two-thirds of this property
and the most environmentally sensitive portions of
this property to mitigate 3.4. That's a almost four
to one'mitigation ratio that he's offered in this
application.
He's not -- he's an elderly gentleman. He
needs to sell the property, and we're trying to get
enough that he can reclaim his investment in this
property. This is as close to a complete regulatory
taking case as I've ever seen. And the mitigation
that he's given is phenomenal. He's given up
two-thirds of his land in order to reclaim a
fractured distressed wetland system, but the State
says two-thirds of your property's not enough, so
you have to go off-site with 50 acres of additional
enhancement. That's ludicrous folks. That's almost
a 15 to 20 mitigation ratio that the state's looking
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1668
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
13 ~.
for distressed fractured system.
The second one was adverse impact to wetlands
habitat. Folks, this site has no wetland habitat at
all, has no benefit. It's fractured. It's cut.
It's surrounded by pavement and it's surrounded by
proposed and permitted development. There are no
wildlife benefits on this site. And how the staff
can say that we're damaging wildlife ben~its with
what's already gone in this area is beyond my
comprehension.
The third one is we haven't provided reasonable
assurances the project would not create a cumulative
impact. Again, your cumulative impact criteria is
relatively new. I don't understand it 100 percent.
But if somebody's willing to preserve two-thirds of
their site and perpetuate it forever to be allowed
to try to reclaim the property, we thought was an
absolute excellent proposal and should have been
reviewed and accepted by the staff.
We don't agree with your staff's environmental
evaluation on the wildlife habitat potential at the
site. We don't agree with their request for
additional mitigation in order to be permitted.
We've had a client that's owned the property
for 23 years, been damaged for years. Every
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 _ (904)329-0242
1669
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
regulation that's been adopted has taken another
piece of his property and another piece of his
development rights. It's gotten to the point that
you've taken it all, and this is basically his last
attempt to try and work within the system in order
to reclaim a portion of his property and reclaim his
investment in his land. Any questions?
MR. SEGAL: I'm somewhat familiar ~h that
piece of property to the north of it abiding Highway
50. Isn't that area fenced off? Like, didn't the
DOT kind of extend the fence there from an off ramp
of the expressway?
MR. FOGLE: A portion of it's fenced, most of
it's not. The road immediately north is Bonneville
Drive and the development immediately north is the
research park. A portion of the limited access
right-of-way is fenced.
MR. SEGAL: Is this kind of a window to Highway
50?
MR. FOGLE: Absolutely. The frontage road has
been constructed to the intersection of Bonneville
Drive. When the DOT bought limited access
right-of-way, they cut off its frontage and they had
to build an access road or frontage road to give
this property and the property over here access to
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 ~
(904)329-0242
1670
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Highway 50 or they would have had to buy the
property back then.
15
MR. SEGAL: But he was somewhat compensated for
that loss?
MR. FOGLE: Of course, but not for the entire
piece of property obviously.
MR. HILL: What's the condition of the wetlands
that you plan to give to the conservati~easement?
Is it just another distressed wetland also?
MR. FOGLE: Again, if you take a look at that
area, you will find a strip of wetlands that follows
the creek line. It's a little bit more
distinguishable maybe on this area.
MR. HILL: You talking about here or over here?
MR. FOGLE: If you can take a look, you can see
a strand of vegetation comes through here. That is
your classic wetlands. Everything above that or
beyond that is a mixed bag of upland and wetland
vegetation. What you need to preserve from a
wetland standpoint is this strand. We're not
proposing to take that.
The rest of the wetlands, especially this stuff
north of that powerline is extremely distressed,
limited habitat value. We've been in disagreement
with staff on the -- almost from the getgo on the
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 ~
(904)329-0242
1671
,a, .~
.... ~"' ....
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
16
value of this for wildlife and fish. We don't see
it. My environmentalist, Jim Morgan of Morgan
Environmental, done extensive reviews on-site and
basically sees no current benefit to fish or
wildlife on this property at all.
MR. HUGHES: I think basically you're
challenging staff's findings of fact.
MR. FOGLE: Absolutely.
MR. HUGHES: Now, do you have material today to
support your verbal allegations --
MR. FOGLE: Sure. We've submitted enough
environmental reports in our application to support
our position. Again, when you take a look at your
rules, there are no rules, there are specific facts
involved with what is a cumulative impact we've
seen, what is a viable wetland habitat. Those
things are mostly what is your opinion of that
matter. I've got opinions both my own and our
environmentalist that it's not a good habitat. We
have opinions on the water management district that
they are. There is nothing that says, hey, it's
number two class wetland with this kind of species
and it classifies it as good or bad. It's a
subjective matter that we're looking at.
MR. HUGHES: Well, I believe we're talking
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 -(904)329-0242
1672
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 .. 14 ''''-'.- ~--
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
17 ;,
about objective things here when we're talking about
wetlands, mitigation and so forth. Now, you've
presented to our staff people your findings from
your environmental people and they reviewed these;
this is what you're saying?
MR. FOGLE: Absolutely.
MR. HUGHES: They disagreed with the factual
information that you gave our staff peop+e --
MR. FOGLE: Sure.
MR. HUGHES: -- is that where we are?
MR. FOGLE: Again, it comes down to a
difference of opinion on the quality of that
wetland. Again, I'm trying to demonstrate in
relatively simple terms that I've got an expressway
on this side, a major road on this side, a powerline
cutting through here, two developments on two sides
of me, and what you've got is a narrow band of
wetlands surrounded by development. And I'm being
told that that's a significant wildlife habitat
benefit and that my construction of 3.4 acres of
filIon the north part of my property north of the
powerline is going to do damage to the wildlife.
Our expert said no way. There are no wildlife
benefits to begin with, let alone loose on this
property.
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 -(904)329-0242
1673
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 •' .,", 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
18 ~
MS. HARDEN: Can we hear staff's response,
please?
MR. ELLEDGE: The staff report spells out
wildlife benefits that we see in the wetlands. The
staff considers these wetlands to be a high quality
wetlands and uplands in the Riparian Habitat
Protection Zone of the Econ, which again impact in
these areas are presumed to be harmful, ~less the
applicant demonstrates -- demonstrates otherwise,
it's presumed to be harmful to the fish and
wildlife.
The -- not only -- I also wanted to point out
this powerline itself is not the type of powerline
where you have a road underneath it. That powerline
has actually a herbaceous wetland system underneath
the powerline. It's not a forested wetland that's
been cleared obviously, but it still is a wetland
herbaceous system in that area.
As to what the applicant consu}tant submitted,
Liz, did their consultant submit information that
there is no habitat value at all to this wetland
system? Did you get any such report, any surveys or
other information that demonstrated that? What did
you do get?
MS. JOHNSON: They did submit a wildlife survey
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 -(904)329-0242
1674
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
of the area and there were a variety of birds and
other different types of wildlife using the area
that was surveyed and they surveyed the whole site.
MR. ELLEDGE: So I think it's safe to say
there's a disagreement regarding the quality of the
wetland system. The staff believes that this system
is of high quality. I think there's also a
disagreement as to whether or not weha~ totally
prevented the use of this property. As I indicated
earlier, development of up to an acre of this
property could be mitigated on-site and development
of 3.7 acres as proposed could be -- could be
accomplished if off-site mitigation were also
included in the mitigation plan.
MR. FOGLE: Again, you do have a significant
mitigation plan already included in this proposal.
The man's given 11 and a half acres of wetlands
preserved from development. That is -- I don't know
whether staff agrees with it or not, but that is a
tremendous financial benefit to the State,
preservation of the ecosystem to how much can you
do.
We've taken a look at the economics of this
situation. The owner paid top dollar for this
property back in 1971. He's held it for years, and
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 ~.
(904)329-0242
1675
~ ... ' ~ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
20
I~
he's had 80 percent of his property regulated away
today and he has to come before a board and say,
look, I want to reclaim 3.4 acres of my property so
I can get my economic benefit back out of that
property. And we're looking at a system. All you
got to do is look at the aerial photographs, see the
road systems, powerlines and developments that have
been proposed here, and to say that it's-a viable
wildlife system is ridiculous. I don't know care
what expert looks at it, what staff reported.
We've got a severe disagreement on intent with
staff's evaluation on this track. And again, we
understand that we have to do mitigation, but my
God, how much more do you folks want? The owner has
taken this thing out, but he can't -- can't afford
to go off-site to mitigate anything else. It's
expensive enough for him to reclaim under dredge and
fill permit the 3.4 acres, and if he does get that
and he gets commercial values at today's rate, he's
barely out of that recouping his initial investment.
MS. HARDEN: As I understand this, your client
doesn't want to build anything, he just wants to
clear it and fill it to make it saleable; that's
what you're saying?
MR. FOGLE: The only way he can sell that
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1676
"
•~ ... '.' .. ' .. 1
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
21
property is to get around the wetland regulations.
The easiest way we found to do that is to get a
dredge and fill permit issued. He has no intent to
sell it to do a commercial development. It is
commercially zoned property, and hopefully he will
sell it to somebody who will do a commercial
development on the 3.4 acres. But he himself is
just trying to sell the property, has b~ for five
years, been unsuccessful because of the wetland
impacts and regulations that have been placed on
this property.
MR. HILL: What kind of development do you
think might go in there? What's that zoned for?
MR. FOGLE: It's a commercial zone. It's on 50
at an intersection, at a major interstate highway,
7-11, McDonald's, you know, Jiffy Lube, a little
strip center, there's a lot of possibilities.
MR. HILL: Isn't there a junkyard right down
the road or maybe it's a parts place?
MR. FOGLE: No, sir.
MR. HILL: I laid a 42-inch pipeline under that
string you're talking about one time years ago
before they had the expressway.
MR. FOGLE: They just designed a 120-foot
bridge to go over the adjacent piece of property, so
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1677
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
times they are changing.
MR. HUGHES: We're not in the economic
22
1& 77 tf
business. We're considering this environmentally
and scientifically, but I'm just curious when you
bought it back in 1971, what was the zone?
MR. FOGLE: What was the zone in '71?
MR. KOONTZ: Same zoning.
MR. FOGLE: Same zoning, commercial-in the
front and R2 in the back.
MS. HARDEN: Ms. Prescod's been waiting.
MS. PRESCOD: On that map that you have, yeah,
of the yellow and green portion that you want to
develop up there, what is the size of that?
MR. FOGLE: This is .42 acres of upland of
which that includes the Riparian setback zone that's
adopted with the Econ rule and we have 3.13 acres of
the wetland, defined wetland, of which about an acre
of that is already a cleared, mowed powerline
easement, totally stripped of vegetation.
MS. PRESCOD: And staff proposed a dry bottom
retention in there and I understand your people
rejected it. Could you give me some idea of why?
MR. FOGLE: This is a dry bottom retention pond
in the powerline easement as shown. One of the
staff's recommendations that we got at 5:30 Monday
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 ~
(904)329-0242
1678
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
23
night was the only time that we seen staff's
recommendation for off-site mitigation, was to
well, eliminate this and put some underground
storage up site.
Those underground infiltration systems for this
kind of site development probably would run to the
tune of about 180, $200,000, not economically
feasible for a tract this small with Ian .... at this
base price. And again what we're proposing was to
use already cleared, massively disturbed areas in
here for storing water retention. And it is a dry
pond that is designed, very shallow storage
departments.
MR. HILL: If you just got this information at
5:00 on Monday, would you be willing to go back with
the staff over the next month and renegotiate this
thing and try to come up with
MR. FOGLE: I've discussed that with the owner.
Basically what we think we presented is more than an
adequate mitigation plan. The owner is not
interested in looking to do any additional off-site
mitigation to try and resolve this. He's given up
two-thirds of his property.
MR. HILL: Well, I just asked a question.
MR. FOGLE: And he's given up the best and most
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 ~
(904)329-0242
) ,
1679
• 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
•
24
significant wetlands on that property for
preservation from here on out. The mitigation
ratios that staff are asking for dealing with what
we consider reclaiming here are excessive in our
argument.
MR. HILL: But you prefer to have this permit
turned down than to try for 30 more days?
MR. FOGLE: Again, my client has unQergone
bypass surgery. He needs to get out of town to rest
and recuperate, and hopefully would like to resolve
this matter with the board today.
MR. HUGHES: I have another. Would you say
that this was taken in 1990, this photograph. It
shows a ground-covering vegetation and tr~es and so
forth in 1990. Since that time you're alleging --
and I haven't been on the site, but you're stating
that these trees have been stripped and no longer in
the condition this photograph shows; is that
correct?
MR. FOGLE: If you take a look at the powerline
easement, it bisects the site that has been
stripped. It has been stripped for a number of
years. The rest of the site has been natural
vegetation since 1971.
MR. HUGHES: In other words, the site is still
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 _ (904)329-0242
1680
. '
•••••••••
~-
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
•
25
in the condition that the photograph here showed, I
mean?
MR. FOGLE: Yes, sir.
MR. HUGHES: Well, there's considerable tree
cover apparently from looking at this, and you're
stating it's stripped?
MR. FOGLE: I'm stating that the powerline that
runs through the center of the site a huadred feet
in width has been stripped of all the vegetation and
is basically mowed grass and mowed wetland
vegetation.
MR. HUGHES: Well, that's a very minor part of
it, would you say?
MR. FOGLE: Again, what we're trying to reclaim
is a minor portion of it north of that powerline,
totally isolated from the rest of the wetland
system.
MS. PRESCOD: I think my colleague is speaking
about the apartments and so on that you mentioned
MR. FOGLE: Again, Huckleberry development
approved to the south, they are proceeding with the
development. They have approved the conceptual
search, the water permit's issued. And the adjacent
development, University Meadows is a permitted
development up through phase one construction that
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 (904)329-0242
1681
• 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
•
26
has not started yet, but it is permitted and is
anticipated.
MS. HARDEN: Mr. Segal.
( ~ tl b
MR. SEGAL: Yeah. I'm sensitive to your
client's loss that he has suffered due to increasing
regulatory pressure since 1971. I've had a similar
problem, and it's no fun, but that's the facts of
life. And I keep hearing you suggest th.t he's
already giving up two-thirds of his property in the
back as mitigation, but apparently what I'm hearing
the staff say he's already lost that due to
regulation, and I just want to clarify that one
thing.
MR. FOGLE: I'd love you to put that same
statement to the court reporter. I'd love it.
lost it to regulation, by God, the State should
compensate him for it.
He's
MR. HILL: My point -- I don't want to cut it
short. They don't want to wait 30 days to try to
work it out, go over and get a bulldozer, fill up a
few ditches as mitigation off-site. They want to go
to court. If he got a lawyer, they ought to get
him, get on with it. I move the staff
recommendation.
MR. HUGHES: I second the motion. I second the
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 _ (904)329-0242
1682
r ,
• 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
•
27
motion .
MS. HARDEN: Motion's been moved and seconded.
Is there any further board discussion?
MR. SEGAL: It doesn't appear that the
mitigation of the staff is asking for what amounts
to too much -- too much money in view of --
MR. FOGLE: Well, how about having your staff
tell us? I mean, there's nothing we'd l~e today
than to get 3.4 acres, keep this thing out of court
and go our happy ways, let our owner recoup his
investment, sell his property.
I've done probably as much enhancement
mitigation permitting through the district. Our
costs are typically around $20,000 an acre for
enhancement on the four or five projects I've worked
on. I have no idea what the staff's filling a
couple of ditches in, but I've never worked on one
that's been that simple. You ask your staff what
the cost? They don't have an idea. My owner spent
-- is willing to give up a million dollars' worth of
potentially commercial property for mitigation.
It's phenomenal and it's not enough.
MS. HARDEN: Thank you.
MR. HUGHES: Let me ask him one last question
from me. We've gone over the same thing over and
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 ~.
(904)329-0242
1683
, ,
• 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
•
over again. We're asking the same questions.
You're giving the same answers, presenting the same
information. Do you have anything new to present?
MR. FOGLE: No.
MR. HUGHES: I'd like to hear anything new you
got, otherwise I'm ready to vote.
MR. FOGLE: Fine.
MR. HILL: I'm going to ask you one-mOEe time.
Would you pref~r this permit be turned down; is that
what you want or would you like to work for 30 days
and try to work it out and see if these minimum
costs they're talking about, see if you can afford
that?
MR. FOGLE: I've got specific instructions from
my client that the offer is as good as it can get.
It's an excellent offer, an excellent mitigation
plan to reclaim the preserved areas. We were hoping
that we would get at least some consideration, not
just saying, hey, we own it already, go out and do
something else in order to get a permit.
Understand that this mitigation plan is a
substantial benefit to the State with substantial
preservation of a significant portion of wetlands
for the State, and to throw it off and say now go do
something else is pushing the envelope.
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 ~.
(904)329-0242
1684
• 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
•
29 ')
MS. HARDEN: Thank you. Is there --
MR. ELLEDGE: I -- Madam Chairman, I wanted to
make a comment for the record before the vote in
response to some of the comments made by Mr. Fogle.
This application, the dredge and fill application,
you're required to take action on that today because
the applicant invoked a rule provision which allows
them to declare the application complete-essentially
to require action without considering any --
providing anymore information. So they have
basically forced us to take action today, and as
part of our responsibility in reviewing these
permits, we have provided them with options and
alternatives.
Based on the time that we've had, some of these
proposals were made recently, as Monday perhaps,
although I felt we had actually called and given
some of these last week. Oh, that's right. You
were out of town last week, but it was early this
week we provided them with some of these
alternatives.
They are required by the dredge and fill rule
to provide written responses to whether or not those
alternatives are practicable. It's therefore their
responsibility to make this analysis on whether or
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 ~.
(904)329-0242
1685
, .
• 1
~.. .~
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
• 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
•
not they have a practicable alternative. We believe
that their practicable plugging the ditches or
they're putting culverts in in rows on this other
parcel would be very economical approaches towards
mitigation.
The other thing I wanted to state is that we do
not believe that the mitigation has been proposed by
the applicant is acceptable. We don't beiieve that
it fulfills the requirements of the rule.
Essentially it allows the loss of one acre of
wetland for the preservation of three, a three to
one ratio. If you did that on every parcel of
property that was proposed for development the state
would lose 25 percent of its wetlands and that would
be an unacceptable cumulative loss of wetlands.
MR. FOGLE: Again--
MS. HARDEN: Excuse me. You're out of order,
sir.
MR. ELLEDGE: Excuse me, sir. Especially since
we've already lost hqlf of the wetlands of this
state to development of one type or another. So
that was the basis for our recommendation. I did
want to make a couple explanatory comments based on
comments that have been made. If there are any
other questions, we'll be happy to answer them.
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 -(904)329-0242
1686
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
31
MS. HARDEN: Are there any other questions?
All in favor of the motion?
J~ /1
(All board members responded by saying "aye.")
MS. HARDEN: Opposed? Motion carried.
(End of proceedings)
C E R T I F I CAT E
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF PUTNAM
I hereby certify that the following pages
constitute a true and correct transcript of my
Stenotype notes taken at the time and place
hereinabove stated.
Mary K. Shotts, RPR Deputy Official Court Reporter
E. WESLEY ELLIOTT & ASSOCIATES PUTNAM COUNTY COURTHOUSE
PALATKA, FL 32177 ~
(904)329-0242