AU 683Interviewee:Interviewer:

Title:

McCarty, Nick HindsMcCarty, William Bonner (Bill), Jr.

An interview with Nick Hinds McCarty, January 2, 1964/ interviewed by William Bonner (Bill) McCarty, Jr.

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W. B. McCARTY, JR.'S INTERVIEW WITH NICK H. McCARTY - JANUARY 2, 1964

WBM - All right, this is January 2, 1964. We have with us in our home on CraneBoulevard, the third oldest living son -of the family. Nick, we're glad to haveyou with us tonight and wondered if we could interview you and ask you to pointout things of interest that happened in your early childhood - things thatyou've heard from members of our family - things that you think would be ofinterest - things that you have heard already since you have heard all threetapes up to this point - make any corrections or comments where you feel thatthe facts have been deviated from. Nick, how old are you?

NHM - Bill, first it's a pleasure to be here. It's a nice home, and I told Isabelshe's a dandy housekeeper. It's very nice to be here indeed. I'm 64 years old.

WBM - Nick, what does the H stand for in your name?

NHM - Hinds, H I N D S.

WBM We're glad to have you over from Texas with us this New Years period. Howold were you when your mother died?

NHM - Bill, I don't remember exactly. I was quite young. Levi, I don't rememberthat. I'm seven years older than Levi and, if my memory serves me correctly,she passed away when he was just a few months old. I could be mistakenabout that because it's been so long ago and I'm pretty dumb and stupid and 60something years is a long time for me to remember but with this other stuff itis interesting. I enjoyed it thoroughly, but I would like to bring up one littlesuggestion that Will and Joe did not bring to the attention of this thingand that is that our mother, so I was told many times, was the originator ofthe consolidated schools. Now of course they didn't have any school buses.They didn't have anything back there at that time and they had a bunch of littleold one house, one room schools, and I think Jud Holman, if I remember correctly,used to teach at one of those little old things and they'd be about six orseven miles apart.

WBM - Where, located in Carroll County?

NHM - In Carroll County and one of them was about two or three miles from where wewere born and Mrs. Agnes Patton, I don't remember if she taught there or not,but anyhOW my mother, she got busy and went to see all of those people.She drove a buggy and she built this enormous school. At that time it was agreat school and she had, oh I think seven or eight teachers in it and all ofthose kids, they closed up those other schools, and some of them came inbuggies and some rode horses, and I remember old Hinds Jumper used to ride ahorse about eight miles. This was something that was tremendous and is, as Iwas told, it was the first consolidated school. She died without knowingit. Mrs. Agnes Patton, I saw her many years ago and she lives down in Summit,Mississippi. There's a wholesale grocery down there and her son worked there ashead bookkeeper, and he had heard his mother speak of me and I had to goby there and see Mrs. Agnes Patton since she hired the school teachers so Iunderstand it.

WBM - Well that's real interesting. I did not know that.NOTICE

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NHM - Well I thought that Will or Joe, one would probably bring it up, but Mrs.Agnes Patton, she will verify it, as she did for me, and she told me some thingsthat I didn't know because I was so small, as I say, I didn't remember much.

WBM - Well you were so small you really didn't remember your mother before shepassed away.

NHM - Yes I remember her and my father died, pappa died I believe about a yearafter that. I don't remember the dates but it wasn't long I know that.

WBM - Do you remember him?

NHM - Oh yes.

WBM - Well what happened to you after his death?

NHM - After his death I was farmed out to Lexington. I went on a train with AuntFannie, and we called him Uncle Bud, Uncle Levi McGee, my mother's brotherand boy, I was ugly and freckled face. Nobody wanted me and you couldn't blamethem for that. I went back with Aunt Fannie and Uncle Bud and Henry McGeeand I stayed with them and they lived out on Pine Grove Plantation, andthen I boarded with an old man by the name of Roach, Mr. and Mrs. Roach. Theyhad a son Russell about my age, and I went to Lexington school for several yearsand I remember Will paid them $3.00 a month, I believe it was, for my room andboard, but I had to help to tote the coal in and make the fire and all that junkwith the son and then after that, I went to Hemingway and lived with Annis.Her name was Annis McCarty Holman. She was pappa's sister, and I went to schoolat Hemingway for several years and then after that I went to MississippiA&M forabout two years and then I didn't run off. I didn't have to run off. All I hadto do was walk off. But I went to Akron, Ohio, and then from there I went toCleveland, Ohio, and worked for Mr. H. C. Baker, and I used to make Ford motors.We made 120 Ford motors in 24 hours, and we thought we were setting the woods onfire, and he didn't know the circumstances and then my uncle got sick andWill wrote me and told me to come home, that Uncle Bud was going to pass awayand he was asking about me, and I bought an Indian motorcycle and I startedfrom Cleveland, Ohio, on that darn motorcycle, and I got down there about 60-70miles and I got tired of that thing, and I put it in a crate, and I shipped it toJackson, and I caught a train and came on in.

WBM - Well did you have a wreck with that motorcycle before you left it?

NHM - A wreck. No, not then, but I did have a wreck. I was coming, we used to ridein this, they had a garage in this Ford plant that went from street to street,and you can cut your spark all the way off and just turn your gas on, that'd makethat thing roar in that building and then I'd hit that thing right quick,turn.,my throttle, your throttle worked with your, hands and when I did, itthrew·me back and I was laying on my back with my hands back over, well overmy shoulder, I couldn't get up to the throttle to cut the thing off and thatthing was just flying When it hit the street. It jumped the street and ran upa tree and the motorcycle, it tore it all to pieces, but I fixed it up againand I brought that thing to Jackson. I don't know what ever happened to it.

WBM - How old were you then about that time when you came back, you say Uncle Bud,Uncle Bud McCarty?

NHM - No, Uncle Bud McGee.NOTICE

rms material may be,rc\ected by copyright.,,,. !Title 17 U.S. Code).WBM - Bud McGee, I see.

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NHM - They called him Mr. Levi you see, and oh Bill, I don't remember but after thatI went to the University of the South, Sewanee. I went there two years, and thenI did a hitch in the Army in that thing, the Officers Training Camp, and theypaid us $30 a month there, and I made a mistake because I had been toMississippi A&M and I knew the Manual of Arms and all of that junk to themilitary outfit and then at Sewanee there were about 160 boys and they saidanybody that had any military experience step two paces forward and I'dlooked around and I was the only joker and I walked up two paces and man theyliked to have marched me to death. I had to show those fellows how to keep stepand how to do all of that stuff and Bill another thing too, you know we weretalking about, I was thinking about Sewanee, and I used to go to, my roommatewas a boy named Leslie Wright. Leslie was from Greenwood, and I had never met,we called him Spech up there - he used to deliver special delivery lettersin Greenwood and we belonged to the same fraternity, Delta Tau Delta, atSewanee, and we were roommates and, as I've said, the bookkeeper that gotkilled up there working for pappa and Uncle Ben was his uncle.

WBM - That's at Rising Sun?

NHM - That's at Rising Sun and

WBM - Was killed?

NHM - Yes and he was the bookkeeper, and I didn't know that until he found outwho I was and he told me because his mother had told him and he told me thathis mother told him that Whitworth shot pappa and Uncle Ben.

(There's a long period here that is not able to be deciphered)

NHM - And when he moved down here from the country they drove a bunch of cattle downhere all the way from Hemingway to Jackson.

WBM - Good night!

NHM And I don't know how long it took them but man two or three of them they claimedthey gave out and they'd die on the road, a bunch of them, they didn't get hereat all. Poppa hired some men and they walked, they walked every foot of theway from Hemingway to Jackson with those cattle. It was a pretty good pieceof land, I don't know, and there was a great big home I.remember that and:.ithad a bathtub and a toilet in the house and that was up town. They had one9f those old bathtubs with the claw feet on it, stood up about 6" off of the floor.

WBM - What ever happened to that old home, do you know?

NHM - Bill, I wouldn't know now. Poppa, when he moved here, he, I guess you call itbUck horn. They had a bunch of great big oak trees and he fretted that they'dhave-ja storm or lightning would strike a limb and fall on the house or something.I don" t know his reason, but he had those things cut back.

NHM - On McTyere Street.

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WBM - This was in Jackson, just off Grayson Street?

WBM - On McTyere. MDAHNHM - And the only thing that I know, when I go by there, I can see one of those trees

now that's been buck horned you see, and I know that our house was back ofthat tree. I do remember that but whether that house is now there I don't knowBill, but it was a great big house ano I forgot how many rooms were in it

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but they were spacious - one of those old fashioned ones, and I believe, it wastold me, it's all hearsay, all of this is, part of it rather, but they claim thatJoel Johnson's place on North West Street, you know where that is?

WBM - Yes.

NHM - And I think poppa wanted to buy that. I believe that was for sale for $4,000from old man Joel Johnson and it had about five or six acres of land with it, butit was two story and my mother was kinda'a large woman and she lived in a twostory house and she said she wouldn't walk up and down those steps any more. She'dnever have a two story house so she selected the other.

WBM - How much would you estimate your mother weighed? That's the first time I'veever heard she was a large woman.

LqM - Bill, I wouldn't know. I imagine she would weigh 150 pounds or somethinglike that. I don't know how much she weighed. Now my poppa, my father, weighedabout 185 if my memory serves me correct about that.

WBM - Well tell me about your early work. Did you ever work for Jackson Mercantile?

NHM - Yes, I remember when they put a floor, this was an old barn you see, and they hada negro named Saul Thornton that used to deliver groceries and he'd delivergroceries in a wagon, in a spring wagon, and I was staying at the housethere and then after that, I don't know, but anyhow when I came back, I went towork for the Jackson Mercantile. That was when Jud Holman was the bookkeeper •.

WBM - This was while your daddy was still living?

NHM - This was when my father was living, yes, and after he died, getting back toJackson Mercantile, I came back to Jackson for some rhyme or reason and I startedworking for the Jackson Mercantile and that's now on Adelle Street and BernardMarsalis, you know Bernard, we were just kids and Bernard worked there too.We worked there at the same time, and I don't know how long we worked there,but I do remember that I stayed at the house and I believe Henry Holman, yesHenry was here and Henry and Jud slept in one bed. We had two beds in this greatbig room and then Will and I slept in the other bed and then, of course, thatother that's been recorded about the stores and how #6 got its name becauseit was the sixth store and then the rest of them were eventually changed back to,eonvert.ed into Jitney Jungles but Will opened that thing way back yonder when itwas open. I don't remember dates but I do remember that when, he used to runaround with this set of plans, a piece of butcher paper and he had that thingthen and Judge Stricker, so they told me, they were, had been family friendsfor ever, since I can remember, and they, that's when they got the name of JitneyJi~gle and Will decided on Jitney Jungle and then about that time when theWar was on. I remember when the War started and' Joe went to some army outfitand ~nry, he went down to Camp Shelby, and Henry would come back every now andthen. Boy his color was good - the army did him good. Before that he always had abad stomach and he'd have to go to Hemingway and spend a month or two up there butafter the stretch in the Army. But he was not here. I was shipping clerk and thenmoved, they got this old building on President Street, it faced PresidentStreet, and it went all the way back my near to Kennington's and they knocked ahole in that door back there to #6 and at that time I was shipping clerk. We hadan old truck.

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NHM - Yes, that's true. MDAH

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WBM - Well McCarty Holman had been formed then wasn't it?

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WBM When the warehouse was up on President, is that right?

NHM - Yes, that's right.

WBM - You were a shipping clerk then, you were back here then?

NHM - I was back here then.

WBM That was right after the War was it not?

NHM - That's right, that was after the War, and then old man R. H. Green, had R. H.Green Wholesale House, that's where the Russell Company is now, and he and PaulTatum of Capitol City Wholesale Company and Will and Jud, they startedworking on this Mississippi Motor Company and they, with all that bunchthere, they put up some money to get it started and then when the War wasover, I don't remember, but I do know that Joe got back first if my memoryserves me right and he opened up the Mississippi Motor Company and then afterthat Henry was discharged, came in from France, and he worked there with thatMississippi Motor and will and Jud were at the McCarty Holman Wholesale Groceryand then after that I was shipping clerk. I used to calIon the trade like allthe rest of them did. We called on the restaurants, and hotels, and then afterthat, while Henry was still in France, they bought this property down on MillStreet and then they got Walter Magee, W. C. Magee, contractor, to put up thatbuilding. He's the same fellow that built the Bailey High School. They builtthat place there where it is now, McCarty Holman, and then I worked there a yearand then I went to Texas and opened up some stores, I believe I had nine at one time.

WBM Who'd you go in with, Carl Faust?

NHM - Carl Faust.

WBM Did he have some stock?

NHM - Yes.

WBM - Who else had stock in those stores?

NHM Nobody. I put up $5,000 and he put up $5,000 and Will and Mr. Faust and Iwent down there and we inspected the location in Harlingen and we had $10,000~tween us and at that time why man you could open up a store for $10,000.The whole thing wasn't but 23' 6" wide and about 100' deep and they did welland we built that thing to about $150,000 and the records are down there at theoffice now if Mrs. Coffey can find them. But anyhow they talked me out of it.I didn't want to do it but they wanted to consolidate the thing with a wholesalegr9cery outfit, Walker Craig. Before that well will called me and wanted meto come to Shreveport to dismantle those Jitney Jungle stores so I bought theblast~d things and put, all the groceries and pineapples and peaches in egg cratesput the stuff in a box car and one'of them went to Weslaco, Texas. I'veforgotten where the rest of them went but I bought the Shreveport outfitthen Walker Craig Company they operated over Jitney Jungle stores.

and

WBM - What ever happened to Walker Craig?

out andNOTICE

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NHM - They let them go haywire, the wholesale grocery, and the old fashioned andthey, we used to give those boys a bonus and some of them used to make as highas $4,000, $5,000 a year bonus and the old man read one of those statementsand he found out where he was paying that bonus and he didn't see eye to eye withme and he say boy he wasn't going to pay nobody twice to work for him and I saidyou are going to tear down something in two minutes that it took me about eight

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years to build. I said you are going to tear it to pieces Mr. Bennett andthen he said well you've got to go tell them we're going to do away with thisbonus. I said I'm not going to tell them Mr. Bennett. I said I haven't got theheart. I said I think as much of a lot of those boys, much as I do brothers,and you can tell them but I said I tell you what you do, you just get my moneytogether and buy my stock and he said he didn't have any money and I saidI'd take your note. But anyhow why I sold my interest to Mr. Bennett. I hadstock, we had stock in Jitney Jungle and also Walker Craig but these, thereason he wanted those stores, to gyp them you see and they would, our boysthey knew, just like these fellows here, they knew what the merchandise wasand when they'd sell a Mexican a 100 pounds of sugar cheaper than they wouldus 30 bags, 3000 pounds, and they resented it, and they knew, we knew what wewere doing and they didn't. I said something to him. I said Mr. Bennettwe can't get by, you can't gyp them and they'd have those invoices for ArturoGarcia and the Mexican can't read and write and these boys they would read thoseinvoices and they'd see one sack of sugar for $5.80 and they'd see Jitney Junglethere with 30 sacks of sugar $6.10 and the thing just wouldn't work. I knewit wouldn't work but they outvoted me. I didn't have a say.

WBM - Well that was real unfortunate for you and I know it really

NHM - It hurt, you bet it did.

WBM - Made a difference in your life.

NHM Oh yes it sure did.

WBM To have to get out of that thing after you got it going. Did FranklinChrist work for you then?

NHM - Yes he did Bill. I gave Franklin the first job he ever had. Franklin camefrom Little Rock and his sister and husband traded at the Jitney Jungle andhe went down there and came to the store back in the wareroom where I had alittle old office, about 12' wide. I had, I believe, three stores at that

WBM - Was this in Harlingen now?

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NHM - It's in Harlingen so then I, he kept on and you know how they can fill you fullof bull - everything we buy we buy from Jitney Jungle so you've just got to givemy brother-in-law a job. He's just laying around the house and he's unhappy andthis, that and the other, coming from Little Rock, and I told him, I said Nolan,I said I don't need anybody, man we've got a full crew and well next day it'dbe the same old seven and six, I said send him in so the next day he broughtFranklin in. I don't know the salary we paid him, wasn't much though, about$15 a week, and I started him peeling onions and at that time we didn't mark thepric~s on cans and you had the numbers in your head and we had those, one cashregister up there and we had two Burroughs adding machines. We had two checkouts,one on one side and one on the other, and Franklin, I showed him how to peelonions, started him out there, and then he got to be a stock boy, stock man I\n DAHand he learned the prices and he had to remember those things. There wasn't !VIprice marked on a can or nothing. And he got to be quite good at it and wasn'tvery long before he was a cashier and then I opened another store, opened a storein San Benito where I live now, and I made him the manager of that storeand he did well and then I opened another store in Brownsville and I trans-ferred him to Brownsville and he managed that store and did well and then afterI got out of the Valley Jitney Jungle Company, he came to see me and wanted meto get him a job and I did with Libbey, McNeil and Libbey, on the road, fora Mr. Wolf who was the branch manager in Houston, Texas, and then I was in CorpusChristi one night and Isabel and Franklin came to my room in the hotel and said

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you've just got to get Franklin back in Jitney Jungle Nick, you've just got toget him back in the business, and I said well, I says Isabel, there's the phone,that's when it didn't cost but a nickel, I said you know plenty of people. Iknow that you're a smart gal, that's his wife, and she called Taylor RefiningCompany. Mr. Taylor, he's out of town, so she got another fellow, a lawyerand he worked for Lawrence C. Hill. Lawrence C. Hill was President of theTexas Power & Light Company and she introduced me over the phone the next morningand Franklin was managing the store for Butt, H. E. Butt, at that time, andhe had $160 if my memory serves me correctly, so then I told him that Franklinworked for our company and he'd handled many and many a dollar and I trusted himand he said well come on down to the office and I'll give you a check for$10,000, and I told him if he'd do that that I would ask the company, Jitney-Jungle, Incorporated to put him in busines so Jitney Jungle, Incorporateddid put him in business so they sent Mr. Hare down there to layout the plansand the store and the whole works.

WBM - This is in Corpus now?

NHM - Corpus Christi, a very successful operation. He's a very wealthy man.I'm very proud for him and his family.

WBM - Well Nick let me jump back, what do you remember about the first Jitney Junglestore #6, store #6, up there, you say you were working back there in McCartyHolman Company?

NHM - Yes I was shipping clerk Bill and we used to get that stuff up, there'd be acase of pork and beans and this, that, and the other, we'd put at the backdoor you see because the back of this Jitney Jungle #6 entered into the warehouse atthe back end you see.

WBM - I remember that. I was a little kid. I used to come down to the store, tothe warehouse there before it moved to Mill Street.

NHM - That's right. And the thing caught on fire one time and they called me in,I don't know why the fire department called me, and I went down there andthat thing had gone. We had it insured though.

WBM - The whole warehouse burned up? . NOTICEth,S material may beprotected by cOPyri "and waterfaWmtle'711s g t

, . r.Odpl~ - Yes and all the stock, see Jud and Will, all of it was smoked

damaged and

WBM - What about the store, did it catch on fire too?

NHM - No the store wasn't damaged at all, just the water and smoke. I think it wasone .~turday night, some time Saturday it caught on fire.

WBM - Well now let's see there when this' #6 was first opened up as a Jitney Jungleyou were there, Jud Holman was there, was he, he was there?

NHM - Yes, Jud was there.

WBM - And Dad was there?

NHM - Yes.

WBM - Was Henry there?

NHM - No Henry was in France.

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WBM - He was still in France7

NHM - Yes, Henry didn't know a thing in the world about Jitney Jungle until he gotback to Jackson, Mississippi and got off the train.

WBM - How much, how long after that first store was opened, that first Jitneyuntil he had returned, do you know?

NHM - How long was it? Bill I don't know. I do remember Brannon was managerof Jitney #6 and the thing took in $750 in checks and cash and he told willhe said Will, you've got half the money in Jackson. I do remember Brannontelling Will that.

WBM - Big volume store.

NHM - Big volume. He got $750 - got half the money in Jackson and Armour & Companyhad a truck with about eight negroes with these trombones and came up and downCapitol Street you see hollering going to Jitney Jungle - that was the opening.I don't think we had an ad in the paper or nothing but that thing took in $750that day and Brannon, man he couldn't believe it, but I imagine that Henry,Bill, if my memory serves me right, that it was about I'd say six or eight monthsthat thing had been there before Henry was released from France because I knowwe were wondering why they didn't send him horne. The war was over you seeand when Henry carne back why he was always good with figures and he went tothe Mississippi Motor Company, that thing was around there on South, it was onSouth State Street, some place in there, yes I know it was, and then he went -in there and then I don't know how long Henry stayed at Mississippi Motor., buthe carne on back to Mccarty Holman Company, I remember that. We had moved to MillStreet.

WBM - No, I don't think you moved to Mill Street until '28.

NHM - Well those plaques out there, I got those for Will, you see I orderedthose things.

WBM - Well one of them says 1928.

NHM - It does, well that must have been, bound to have been when it was.

NHM - Yes.

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~M - ~at was later on.

WBM - Well Nick you..

NHM - We operated out of that old house and we had no siding and we'd unload acar 6~ flour MDAH

WBM - On Mill Street in the old house?

NHM - No, the one on President Street - we had the freight cars since we boughtin car lots.

WBM - Had to truck it up there?

NHM - Truck it up there, handle it three or four times, you see, had to get itout of the car and put it on the truck and haul it to the front of the oldwarehouse and then take the stuff on the inside.

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WBM - Well Nick anything else you want to mention or

NHM - About the name McCarty, this is amusing. I have a friend down there in Texasand his name is, you know you asked somebody if it was ever "thy" and all theMcCartys or McCarthys are Catholics and this bird he's got a M c Car thyand he's done everything in the world pe could to get that changed to M c Car t yand I said Mac, why are you ashamed of that "h" in it and he said Nick tellyou the truth. Some of my folks back in Ireland, they stole a horse or somethinglike that, and said they put that "h" in there to recognize him you see. Yesthat's the reason he's got to spell it M c Car thy.

WBM - Is that right, well I never heard

NHM - Yes he said they won't let me drop the "h" because some of his folks stolea horse or something back there in Ireland.

WBM - Well Joe referred to one of the McCarty boys going to San Marcos, Texas.Have you ever been to San Marcos?

NHM - Yes, oh yes.

WBM - Did you ever know any of those McCartys out there?

NHM - No, no but when I was in Harlingen some of them came to the warehouse goingto Brownsville and they told me that they were McCartys and they were kinto us and they knew all of those people out there in Hemingway.

WBM - Where is San Marcos? What's it near?

NHM - San Marcos, Bill, is not too far from San Antonio.

WBM - Uh-huh.

NHM - And they've got a, it's an oil outfit there, they've got it seems to me likea thing where they drill an oil well out there and instead of turning an oilwell it was hot water and it's mineral and for people, I thought about Jud, the,that water is mineral and they've got those pools and they have trained nursesand they put bathing suits on those patients and to lay in that water you knowbecause it burns you. It's mineral you see.

WBM Kinda like Hot Springs. MDAHNHM - That's right but this is mineral and the water is hot coming out of there

and this old well it flows day and night coming out a gusher there abouta 6" casing and then just gushes out day and night. Those people are still upthere. One of them's name is Will, Willie, yes one of those McCartys is namedWillie. .

WBM - Well did you know anything about the Kansas group? NOTICEThis material may beprotected by COpvriqh'law (Title 17 .

WBM - Well is there anything else that you want to straighten anybody's conversationout?

NHM - No I didn't know. I had never heard it.

NHM - No Bill as I say a lot of this stuff I'm quoting is hearsay but a lot I doremember.

WBM - I'll keep a record of all of this.

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NHM - Well it's really nice. It was interesting and I sure enjoy hearing all ofthis stuff because those people you know, we are very closely knitted,Aunt Lela, Ben, and all the families and it's been a pleasure being here in yourlovely home again Bill, and I enjoyed every bit of it.

WBM - Thank you Nick and we'll sign off tonight. Goodnight.

NHM - Goodnight.

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