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SPIRO T. AGIlE"il---~--T"dE VICE PREsrrii~rr' S SPEE;CliES

__December 3,-1970New York City

William F. Buckley, Jr.Vice-·Prezident Spiro T. Agnew

t/b..'V.I. :B-Ilckley: l-Ir. Spiro Agnew' is"Vice President of the United Ste.tes,. vhose speeches

over ~ courBe of a sine.le year have made' him an international figure, denounced recently

.f.,tin Pddng as the

, .'god of pie.gue, a.dored by, ~.udd.le,PIlcrica; reviled by eastern icaboord

I vo~ld be di6appointed~ i~ ve

P_~d I'do not doubt that he spends 'hours composing the most ear~shatterin~

libercl.s -- so;:r:e of whom are disposed to make room for him on tha.t holy pillar of

obloquy l/hich, up until now,; vas occupied s.l~ne by Sene-.tor Joe N:cO>.I:t~. It is

:!'~ehion'?.ble a..':long th~ literati to e,ay of the Vice Pre3ident now-ade.ys that he is

merely a. be.d joke. By ini'erence one reasons that ylilliaza Fulbrieht is a good jolo::c., 't ~~VJ-I1..- •

In fac~ both ere entirely serious men., and since an ac~ident of fate vo~ld prope~

;".,...1:clir. Agn~\1 t-9Athe Pre~iclency, it is "Worth one's vhil:e to' con-sider hicrand his thoughts

at least as seriously es he desires that lI'e should do..-:.--",,:C::.) llould learn tcle.y from l'~. Agnew :that. he .is in5ensible to ,the art, or even to the sP9rt

~ of P9litics.~""hJ\ ..,,~/ .,)_.. _:. '.. '.. : .. alliteratio3s -- for no other'reason than to torture the editors o~ Toe New York Times,

a profession ~2ich I find entirely patriotic. (Laughter) I should like to begin by

as}~ng ~IT. Asaew v~at is his reply'to the most frequ~nt criticism leveled against hi8,

namely, that he is clividing the countrj.

Vice Pres _: I hear this ve~- frequently, 1I,r. Buckley. It seems as though I never go on" '

e prograill that I don't get this question. And the answer is quite obvious when you con-

.. ~Jder_ the entire arena of,Aillerican polit~~s end our adversarj sfstem --,~hich is Qasic-., , .

I

. -ally that when people run aeainst each other for public office, they don't go around'

complimenting each other; they attempt to indicete'~~at, they h'?.Y~_.~better,solutionto

, the problems of the COU-'ltry; .;kd in 'doin~ so, they "1rr.ply; a:t least;- and sometimes very

. forcefully, that the' opponent has no solution~d, in fact, ree.11y is quite inept for.J ' , '

":f:, ' '. ~\,-_;! ._ tb.~ job 'Which he is seekins_ SO~ha.v~ an adversarJ'syste,:; - politics is a contest;

~1-"', ~ .•-

! ....~.. ~~ have a competitive society.: thank God for that. And vetre going to continue to compete

, ...ith each other. There isn't any such 'thing "as a,divisive aspect to ca.'11paigning-,over and'The copyright laws of the United States (Title 17, U,S, Code) governs the making of photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted matefial. If a user make:, a request for, or later

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---7illTurtlleririfcirmation, contact Director, Hoov~r~nstitution1iltlrary and Arthives, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-601Q. , '. ; ,

nivers~y,

- ... -,,,' ----~.© ~oard 'of Trustees of the Leland Stanford ~r. University.

above the natural divisions that result in a campaign•. Mo~t Pre·sidents· are -elected with

·---ariyhow.--A.71d the- who1e"process is e process of se1ec~ion which implies in

means~ha~45~were'a~vided at the tine of

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fit, ·-:---··~55~ or' less 'or-the 'vo"te, -which

.. ' .:_ leads to certain divisions among the, electorate. Toif, doesn't meCl·n that we should, of

necessity, exacerbate.tensions .between people, but it does mean that we must avoid tl1e

tendency that's eulogized by the liberal philosophers of today to "a1WaYs -seek- a benign-

. :.: ~--- nothing solution to the hard prcblernz ve face. And -we should alw-ays avoid, they say,

1nclicating our differences. I fInd the.t l/"hen you do the.t you don' t solve any prob1e~s;

people va1k away fro:u each other thinking they're in agreeruent, only to find they're

.really not.

. }til'. Buck.ley: Well, how do y~~" aCC01..mt fo~ the fact that you -- ve1~ uniq~e1Y,

on ever,fbody' s mind where you.,._._ •• _ _ _.. _~4

don't "ask you e.bcut ita program that they...-~~

mind ~-A \illy should it be.. ' . ., .

maybe -- but you very distinctively have brou~ht this particular charge to the surface.r. .( " )--..·,':::;.,J-'··!ou r-ay th?.t you ~7e ·neyer been on

ere concerned but not on everybody's mind where ot~er people engaged in politic3 are

concerned"?'.

Vice Pres.:-

I-;uppcse -I'm the fore~ost articulator of thedes·truction· of liberal -,

----·---~ogr..a at -then:oi3.ent,--and ··there ere very- fe-.r people On the public scene who attack t..."he

~acrosanct institutions -- some of ~hich you nlentioned in your opening re~arks. And

when you do that -- ~hen you imply that tt's entirely possible 'that t~ese;r~position5'---"

. ,

cera Pav1Ovian·reactiOn.

}I."t". Buckley:

'. Vice Pres.:

Uh-bLl.~J Ztv -----

And thc:re e1'C' refiexe9-1 to attack the t!Source of the heresy. - I happen to be it.

~01it~C5 to peop1~ ~ho 5pe~~ robustly, provided they speak from the left point of view,

._ ~ ---'-- l-'...r •. Buckley:/, " .'---(-- ,

~;~,)J .

Well, do you think that a speciel,dispensation attaches in American

but not from the other.

Vice Pres.: Oh,I ~hlnk that';~entir~ly true.,----. .

Some of' the things that I Rave b.een

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© B?ard .of Trus~ees of the Leland St~nforc(Jr. Univer~ity.

'.e .~a1led ~n joke and Beri~~~y are much worse' than· the utterances 1've made. I remember

. ~~~ld~ ~ne· of ~·political opponents during the Presidential cacpaign made sOme ver£..'-

.- ····-·serious charges against me -- he called me e. two-bit hack politician -- s~~1e very UD-

,pleasa.nt things. I ~e.~ no editorials spout into being immediately following that •. ·1

During the course of a diplonatic trip to Asia, Senator Fulbrtght referred tome as_.- .. - . .. ·AJ··~ome sort ofsnart-)tLec. I didn't see any editorials written about that, although I

.:. -vas siI!l9ly oyer there trying to do my job as a z:epresentative of Illy c01..t..'1try. So there

is an obvious bias in ·favor of left-wing vilification and against any exposition on the

part or the right.tJdR

~l~. Buck1ey:~/You say that lOU saw no editorials chiding your critics for excesse~. In

co~e you. praise so c02pletely the P~lerican press as recentlf as

the 'World, stands ~'1iquely well qualified and uniquely at-

loo~tthe speech, J siEply said that the ~ierican press, co~-

the light cf' that, how

a couple ~~ekS ago?

. ':c.._ Vice P:r:es.: h'ell, ii{ou

__. p~.!.eC!-~o the.. ?ress .::round.

ten~ts to do its job in a proper fashion. ~ne kind of press w~'re ~peaking about, in­V.;e.-

~luding the electronic media, is what I call ~ national P!ess.-- the centralization of'

p01icr in the ha!1~s of E.· fe-.r n:edia, loco.ted· moetly. here in the r;,-"sh:t.n$ton~!{ew York a:ds,

--..- .-- vhich has E.n impact. '~:.y beyond the press th=.t's scattered throughout the country. No~

. . . a~J

the press}· as an entity in the United states, I think, tries to do an excellent job)A1.t...

. think .they're fairly well rOU!"1ded. And I thin..~ they're very independent. But when you

--_._.-··get· into- this "little cabal here tha.t revolves ar-oun§.. the netw-orks, and The Times and The

Washin~on Post, you don't get ~uch of a diversity of opinion.

r ,I''._­..;

~~.!

Mr. Buckley: Well, but why 181t that -- or how do you accoun~_~~~_the exercise of

influence by the eastern seaboard liberal press on the press throughout the country

which press, a moment ago, you said had not come out and defended you against extta-. .

ordinarY' ,charges made against ·you ·on a counle of occasions? _ /}. J . ~-u• , W F 13: tIP~r..,u~.)

Vice Pres.: No, I \,"B.S referring mainly to tb~ational pre&s ;,'\ I wasn't referring to

.,

the press· throughout the countr,r. I ~-as referring to the press the centrali~ed}

© BOard of Trustees of the Leland Stanford ~r. University.

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. p~werful press that's normally referred to. as-the national media.

e':-:-~-':':-_Mr•. Buckley": - .-Yes ~ -Well,teil--me-thi~; 1-1r~ Vice Pre:;ident, do you think it likely- that.

-'--:in due course the right wing in kerica wlllachieve a kind of pole:nieal e:;Lual1ty,that.

we' will be permitted to speak as freely as people who speak on the other side

you see a continuing .imbalance in standards?

·or do

--Vice Pres.: Well, let me say first, I don't consider rrifself part of the rightwlng; 1_

thln.lc I'm properly considered af> part of the .center.. Labe:l:-s are very difficult .. ¢.e

some judgments in the course of rr::y political career -- actions 'Thieh 1've taken walch

have been characterized by my detractors as flaming liberal.

I think they were sensible. I thin}~ ~~~e of th~ things

I don't think they were;~~'fl t:f!~1.-,

1've been sa,fing noy~~~~ E::l'e

,;';'1 tt,.?...cv compatible with the thinking of' people who -consider' themselves very conservative .are

.till sensible. Whet has happened to'liberal-~servativePhilosO~~faras I

C-· ---can see is t"tlat what is liberal is far diff~rent today than what used to be litJeral.a--..J)

61~: __~::Wh_~n_ .~ .was _?ounty Ex~~utiveJ\Ifought_very ha~d for pUb~iC ~~c~mmodations .i~ my county

_ lin:tch 'badb~a 3% Negro pQpulation because I vas. convinced it w-s.s the right thing to

.do') fnere ..-ere a lot of people who said. I -was very liberaJA YThen t fought for fairtV • eu . ~. /"1:;;... ~4J

hO\.l~ing ElZ ~ povernor of the 'ta,t~Jbecau~eI believed in tha~ they th..."'-Ut;ftt I \---as-

liberal. I still believe in these things and ~ill support ther;;' ju.t I cannot, by

any stretch of the imagination, support the kind of disruption and anarchy that's

happening in the name of the left throughout the country. So ~eie'r to look at ·~b.e----===--:--qucsti"ons--and make my decis·lom.- on--:-the' basis of vhat is ·the sensible and fair way to

treat that particular problem. If it happens to fall in with the conservative philosophy,

then I' ~ consen-ative on that question. If it happens to fall.i~with the liberal

pbiiosoph;r, ~liberal on that question.-r-. (Station Break) <'-'/J.. ..)\ . ) . . 1IJJ.e PjI,J;~.1-'.- - Mr. ~ck1ey: jtsn.' t. one trouble with your analysis that it simply accepts as axiomatic

,,-:pJ., ~$'

..,. thB.t eveIything;,JYou do is :sensible?

Vice Pres.: Well, I think that's a fair critici:!lm. Cer-tainly, everything' I do f'rom

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- © Board -of Trustees of the Leland". Stanford Jr. University

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'. my'vieWl'oint is sensible. If it weren't, *-Ot::'lj be in pretty bad shape..-. "I

IloTJ, I'm~~ ....

-==~'8ure(t1iat ~Dy of the th-tugs I do; from other people's vierzpoints,· are not sensible at-., .'. ..

- ···--·all. But ~e must have faith in our OTJn conclusions c.nd in our o#!l·conv.ictions. I..~ok try to do that, and I don't mean to say that ~;never have been ~Tong; I've been ~7ong

. oor 00 • ,,,,",

many times, but the only criterion that I can exercise is rr~ o,m analysis bf wha~5

the proper thing to do, and in that I have faith in n~ sensibilities.

I'll". Buckley: Ye~but lett s ·otr.r to retrieve. the point on which you touched, but~which now you seem to·· be ret~eatint::!;it, or is it not true, that people who speak

rroffivhat is roughly considered to be the right tend to be criticized for excessive

-- for any excess in their, utterance.s --" where~"s people who speak from the other point. a2tJ.-Y..vZ; S/J;!<Y -UeC:Z~~.. , wFf>: A!J-u1 l~U <.fl-..er o

,,--' '-.!~ a..9tc..--~,of V~CY~oJjot 'CrG.3'&-tell~t· : tf 0 • t7 t/ ~ UVice Prel> ~ : I p.gree vith that.:

. t:UjJV1~~J(_'" ¥rr. Bl1.cld.eY:/l Nou, what I'm asking you is, is it possible that people will becoille, as.

'0 0 U- 0

_._!".o ~esult ~ ?c:.~~:l~~~ _Oiffi, ~terprise, that they will come to a.ccept utterances) that

. come in ~ro~ a different~t of the ~olitical spectrt~~, to the point where they will~;

.per.:nit you to be a~J.0utspokep~as oh, Franklin Delano Roosevelt', 0 lias penaittedft<t?-e/ ~. ~ -<J.R-A!-'"

Vice Pres.: I don't thip..k:so~~otunt:!.l ve Bee P. better --..Inlore diver6lty in the:iE "

---attitudes of the people ~ho are promulgating public opinion.

Mr. B-u.ckley: And '\that are ~-e going to do about that?- .

Vice Pres.: Well, I think I've tried to point out in my speech in Des Koines and in~~ ~

------other speechesthst there is a need for a bet~er meld of opinion,,;!;n the .media.-1 I

think there ~~s a poll not too long ago, ~~esp~ctednational P01I~ that indicates

d~ most of the opinion is liberal. : I think .' -<t~Of the ~Titings of particular com­

Jnentators~cron...1d.te, Mr. Se~areid, and otherl39A ;±.e leave nO doubt that they con-·

81der themselves liberal. I made a s~gestion no~ too long agog~~apswe ought

to know more about their biases and prejudices by examining them,on such a program asC~'..'

"1\we have here, to develop their viewpoints in some depth}

to the ideaj ~eVerybodyknows whe.....-e ~ fitand.

~d they reacted quite hostilely1t,J.-e.e;J 0

I said,..{ yes, as "£c::r as what

you .'W'2.nt to say and the subjects you want to touch -- that' 5 true -- but it' 8 a litt1e

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© Bo.ard of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University

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y~. EucY~eJ: . Wel~. !s it possible' that they would consider this unprofessional in= Ua.:t:

the light of the fact that they fieureA they have some sort of formal obligation to

Is.imply present the news; now, all of us knOH that in the presente.tion, of' the n~Ys it AJ,

~

~ possible -- ~s e.·mctt~ fact, it's almost impossible not to be tendentious_

Under the circur"stances, it's

l<tontana. before one finds out

required to wait until a Mr. Huntley resigns to go to__;£;.yd~ .

explicitly Wha~llY believes. B~t it's not hard

to infer, is it?

Vice P-.ces.: Well, they take the position th2.t, aside from the reporting of the ne'\>TS, ad".J:./' J- '

they venture,c;. COlill!lentary, ~opinion cor:l.I:lentary, from time to time -- and this is

enouGh, to f}.ve the people an idea o~;:;;e they stand. I don't thin."- it is. becaUfie the..J

subje~ts they select to identify their posture on are of their o~n choosing; I Dlight

\Tant to kno;; ..here the:r stand on something they've' never talked about. And I think"

the people ought to have this knowledge because of the trereendous p0\oTer of' the net-

~orks and the nm~ber of vie~ers that are reached each evening.

Mr.B....lckley: NOioi, when you say that people ought to have this, it reminds me that

a year or so ago ~hen you la~Ulched your attack on the television network; people. . . .' ;:..f .

I ... re5Ponde~. with some pain. For instance, ?4r. H~r.ing, here in New York~ said, '"Agnew's

-- -:-- disgraceful attack against Letr:orktele'o"i.sion officially leads us as a 'nation into anmost

. ugly ere? of ~~q~fierceso!:les'l.ppression and intirrldation -- the beginning of the end for'

us

of

50S a nation. His terrible and fraudulent evaluation is the most shoc}:...ing use ever .. " : ~~~ J'./A,~")if ma_-'/~ef ~.~Z;~

political. power." Now" I'm not suggestin~~~tlbut I do l ..ond~

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f;e....-.....v~' .

thi~; when yeu say, people should have a right to interrogate Cronkite -- people should

have a right· to examine what are the biases of people who control the networks, are

yeu suggesting J.egislation, or simply that the force or~::;'l1i;ed'! -z;~~~;

© Board of Trustees of the Leland, Stanford Jr. University.

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Vice Pres.: I've 'made it very clear I'm not ~ugge5ting legislation or any other de-

vice' that could :be linked to censorsilip in any fashion. \-.!hen I\fIJkaedJ~b'J,!-!d-61 -

~r~~14y a beiter phrase vould be to say th~t it .ould be fair,

say people "should,",-,,""\

it ?- 5 proper that

people --

~rr. Buckley: Or desirable.

_. Vice .Pres.: or desirable, ye5. I vouldn't suggest I 'l1ouldn' t Ir~nda.te that -. .J

but I think the fact that they have avoided that st8.nds o~ its o~m as souevhat of a

question as to their desire to have their o~~ conclusions minutely examined.

J.-1r. Buckley: P.nd ,;by-is itr~t because they have son;e vested interest in a" :;

continued dissimulation?

Vice Pres.: I'm not sure of the reason. I think there's a basic hostility to the

I doo't~peech.particularly, because of th~t

Now, perh~ps if one of the network presidents sug-,

a.J A vY~in sone E'.reas. I am sort of t~ rete l!ob~ofgested it, it bould receive accolades

- -a~-the e:ectro~ics medi.um/~ television,

fact that I ~ade the suggestion.

think 'it's ce~£l-~cd. I think it has improved teleyision. It may have increased their

~~il e little bit. ~~t I can see some inprov~~ent as a result of what was said.;-:;/-.

~1r. Buckle,r-: I ho..., a yery sophisticated .euY ~ho is high up in the hier.:rchy ,. the-

press here in Nc-,; York who says that he thinks you he.ve literally become sort of ad~

broodinso~ipresence; i.e.'Aeditors don't feel the old freedom to specify a news

~tory or to ~pecifJ a particular ~nd of coveraee for a particular kind of event be-

cause they feel the.t the legions are likely to protest.1 inYoking Agnew•. Now, I should

thia~ that you would be delighted to hear this, aren't you? .

,J-'.

Vice :Pres.: Yes.1 I. thin.~ anything that stimulates the public to .examine very critically' ... ,,,,-. . .:..'

.- what COllies out of opinion that 15 videly diszeminated in the media is desirable.

Mr. ~~ckley: So to the extent that'you are responsible for that, you are pleased.

Vice ~res.:~:m generally pleased with the resultz o~ that speech. I doo't want to

'---"~any question in your mind about.that._ I think it ~s done a.lot of good) and ~'ve

~r~a lot of people in the me~ia, them5elve~, say it's done a lot of good.

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. ..... Mr. Buckley: Ifell., no", ~iven the fact that we've ~':d" yo:ut:nu"i~:::1:r' ..'~-- ,--"--people complaining about the same kind of' thing, it ~ hi6torically interesting that

there should have been a response to the way you said it -- when there w~sn't a

response to,the ~~y people said it, pre-Agnew) :;light? I mean, Eisenhower criticized

the press. As a n:atter of fact, 50 cUd Humphrey, so did Adlai Stevenson • •'i6a.::C" -.-

Vice Pres.: ~ never in a speech, I don't think, that was dedicated solely to that~ ~

purpose." I don't-thinYA~

!o!.r. Buckle.:r: Is that. what Ill3.de it

Vice Pres.;.: I think that)~ t;"hatlprobablrJ got the e.ttentio~, and then they say fit

'When they got the advance copies of' the speech to put it on live television in prime

time

ii

~~ybe it was .in the interest of beingit.

isn't it?

a:t:"got very good ratings ~that particular hour.

That's kind of ~asochistic,

~vf.~JI don' t

Av.hy they did

!olr. Buckley:/--­

"-':_--- -Vice Pres.: -- ,,-ell,. -td ~ _fl" totn~ly fa~rJA yr~ate ....~e~ _i~ _~::-s _it

l'!r. Buckley: You don't think it \R.B the sort of unyielding 'luality of the rhetori.c

tb~t bad this particular effect -- tl1at you were willing to be ~~. Bad- Guy in the. - , h'~' ~

sense th~t SO;'1.~ other critic5 h~tr'tnl t be,cn~ U~I.U ! '. _. .

-"Vice Prc5.: Well, if you ,,-ant a candid opinion, I tbink they grossly misinterpreted-. . IP. -

public opinion; ;Ind they probably thought that after ~nished with tbis speech,

there would be legions rushing to the defense of the television industry, instead of

.:: -,.

: Mr. Buckley: Uh-hm., uh-hm. So that --

Vice Pres.: I've had SOille of the~ tell me that's true.

;:--"" >"

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Mr.' Buckley: There's a fellow out in Honolulu~ apparently the ovmer of' a rad~L r

~ o)~~.:'~~~;:':}J

ststicu, ;;ho himself handled the calls e.:t:ter your speech between~A~ ~i:'c."~

the :morning~;ipp~rentl~people do that in Honolulu--~ end~astonished to find

out, to his o·~ satisfaction, that these ~eollle were in a position to demonstrate- " V2£:e \~~/_~~ _~-L: oJa-f~____aX .. -_ c., _ _O~-.r

the bias ~ his own l5tati0r;l/"~oA about tt!001J.n the morning,t:laybe after tea or for

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© Board ~f Trust~es of the Leland 6tanford Jr. Unive~sity.

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-e _~· ..Vhatev~r re~~on.~ .he si~:=~ c~Pitula~ed9:'He said,

- --that the response signified to peopie1~ho had been

--~~ia~~~ha~ they ~ere~n fact~iased.{ Vice Pres.: I would E-ay :titi~nat' s pre~ty true.

(Station Br~ak) .~

I give up •. In other ~ords, you assurr,e

insensible to the fact of their own

J...----....V~. Buc}~ley: }~. Agnew, I ~~d like to ask you, if I may, ~bout a broader aspect of

- ··--the problem ~e've be~n discussing. It is, r think, pretty widely accepted that the

division between the t:JO c~jorparties in AT.~rican history is not either a verf clear­

~ut·(UYiSion, or a yer:r Sh~rp division, except at certein climactic points in history;

~ ~hen one or the other party_ eniliodies a profOUnd philosophical difference that has

C·!.

arisen in P..:i:erica that needs to be '~~ouzht mit.) sO;i~etinlcs in very harsh terms. Histor-

ians generally point to 1800, 1832, 1860~ 1932, as mO!Jlents ~hen that hapliened.. UOrT,

when that happens, as I u~derst~nd it, you get one party that takes -- that digs. its

:feet in a.nd· insists, .fo:::' instance, as the Republican Party did. in 1860) on an es~en-

tially Abolitionist co~se9 no....' would 'you understR.nd that t-he Republican Party emerges~

in 1969.1' 70,' -(1, in a .....""?_y that had not been anticipate~as the party of ~I!le-rican ..

~urviv~l)_ end that the other partieD are cast, in this mo~ent of crisis, as parties. - . _. . . uh.-t-lL - .

--·that aren't :pre?ared to share tbat historical responsibility .pi' the Republican Party.

Therefore., they -w-ill f~azment]~;;y will be torn by dis~enSiO~~yvil~ seek a

conSensus which is essentially anti--anti-klericao, vieh'"ed in historical perspective.-------_._----_ ..... _. __._------~--. _. ------_._-_ .. ---- ... _..

And this is really ~cause of the genuine_underlay of excitement over ~hat you are

Vice Pre:;.: Hell) I wish I could .say that the Republican Pc.rti:·~.a.s-fairl.r unifie3.- ...--"

.in its opinion. I assume that you ~re .really referring r.ore to -- in your evaluation

, .I- :

'-.... !now to the postur~ of the Republican Party in matters of foreign policy than any- .

th~.ng else. J.~ I correct in that?

Mr. Buckley: No.

Vice Pres.: You're not.

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© Board of Trustees of~-€Iand Stanford Jr. Universit~ ..~ .#J-'i~volve5' that in part., ~m9. :1 t -involves" domestic policy. Tne

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whole idea of Constitution~lprocess) I understan~ to b~ at the center of your indict-

--ment- of the demonstrators.

~elective disob~dience. Now, I consider this to be a great crisis in the evolution'

----of American politics.

Vice Pres.: Yes.

~fr. Buckley: Al'1d you haye emerged a3 a centrist, around whom people~tending to rally, ~ho.believe that that is the basic issue.

J-----Vice Pres.: Well, I thin}~ it js a ve17 ioportant is~ue but I still can't say I

ld.sh I could sa~~ I can't saY-t that thinking 'within the Republican Party is

sufficiently crystellized in one direction to reakeus ascendant in this regard. ISm

afraid. that Ae have just as ~any confused thinkers about what is permissible in thei.~'

_,!~Y o~ .exceptions to our Constitutional and la~·rfU1 society as the other party. The.vv.

dif~e~ce lies in the fact that ¥e don't have as reaDY of theDl. The'p~rties overlap,l~

as you indicated, e.nd the overlap that goes into--the irresponsible left that vould

have u.s forget our lawful traditions, e..n~e p~rt of ~ party tha~ overlaps is

~ch'sill~lier than 'the part .~the other party --" the other major !lartYIf

that overlaps.

And this help~ us to e gr~at extent. But I really can't reacll the conclusion thatth:JC 1~~-'

this issue~ vhat ¥e referred to in the last campaign as the social issue, is going to

- ~·:-be of the I:;osentou.5 essista!lce to·theRepublican Party that it'might be, 1.1' ve didn't

have so n~ny spokesmen in our mrn house who are ,rilling to al~-ays look to sone way to

ratbI!al.ize and excuse this unconstitu~tonal conduct. We had. it here in this jtat~~' -. JrfV er-- '.ae had it -i-rlqui te a fev places around the count~y. The reaction seems to be -- well,

~ don't egree with ~hat they're doing, but I can' understand vhy the~'re doing it~( " fJ .~~Lf ~e IIR1S:t be tolerant of what they're doing. Of.:course, my- views about dissent a.re vell .

f[':; ~.-...'~,' known; ~I'~ve vritten one definitive article that _~s published in The New-York TimeE

..J

~n:Y;!ich I said that there is just no 'vay to have social disobedience civil clisobedier.

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© Board of Trustees of !he Leland .StanfDrd Jr. UniversitY'..

-1.t-un,~vithout.being1able to dr~.the line between that and lawlessness •. There just isn't any

... .....ltoay to do the.t. I can sYIJ1pa.thize during the bus boycotts -- people. breaking the la.w

about s~~ndipg in the back of the bus. Tn~y were acting directly against the law. they

{were demonstrating against. 'But when you have civil disobedience that relates to the

breaking of a law that has nothing to do with a grie-vance) ~uch as lying down in the)~

then there ~s no way to substantiate

that kind of conduct. So we have to take a very strong positionJthat civil disobedience,

whether it's non-violent as they say) or whether it's violen;~wrong, and it's

disruptive of'

fro:lt of tha.t

the rights of' others. If so~eone ~alked in this studio

camera so~s progra:n couldn't be shown) h:~~now and stood in

be acting very

non-violently, but he certainly ~ould be af?ecting the rights of a lot of people.

r-· ..... .l-a-. Buckley: He would certainly el.'lbarrasS a lot ~f raembers of. your staf:f~.Lg,Ughter)C.! .. ' _.-_..__.... -- - ---- - .Well) I aeree ~~th you'lOJ~ but Professor Rarry ~Uf:fa, for instance, wrote,in reviewing

~i- - .----. -'.' .. -- --- ..... -- - - ,_.__., ~.::fC;~f2_" - ...:. -- .. - ..------ .-... - ,." _..~•.-.... -"-' ...._- - .

~" .your book) a Y'e-::r interesting thin~ He said., II I predict that e.s this ca;:rpe.ign '.learWC"...,.')./ •

progresses," this 'b3- Co fe'..! months ago, "m.."\ny Democrats will begin their a.ddress by

denOtmcing }~. Agnew; ~hile.deYotin~ the rc~~indcr of their speeches to paraphrasing. .

him." (~t1.shter) NOH,- he \-'e.S se.ying so!!!ething extremely shrewd, in mY judgment; he.._--- -. __••__ ._-.~- - ------ ---.. -. ---' ;., --'.--- ••• _._-._~.-:-.--_ - ••••• *

~'C.s saying that your st~nce on'civil disobedience and your stance'on constitutional

process, and your stance on the necessary institutionalized forills,that.lie between

"

people in both par~ies as essential to the survival of the nation. Under the circ~~

Btences) they will discharge their partisan re~uirements by denouncing you. Toey will

.then pro~eed to appeal to the same constitu~ncy that you have aWa~ene~,us~ngthes~e

tt\

b<:>.dges and denouncing me for what I \-"3.S saying about la~ and

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Vice Pres.: uk saw that during the campaign ;,-hen they ran around pinni~~ on sheriff's

order~ ~heless, movi~g~ . .

to compensate for the obvious need for them. to correct their past statements in this

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© Board.of Trust.ees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.

}~. ·Buckley: . Well if this is so) then would you be villing to predict that the" ?

crisis is over'gecause normally when you face such crises as I pointed out to.you a

·r·e regard. He had it happen in D"...any states.

-l~·

.{moment ago, you've got a situation where the pol6,ri:.,ation does c·ontinue, and then,. .

ev:entually, one side or the other has to really tritunph - - ;Thether through the use of

the use of political might, a.s in 1932'0ould you ~ay that ,That. .c.----' ""\ ../ .

s~ying and what Nixon has been saying --7and others have been saying~

force as in 186o, or~tv~J

·you~ been

has now.been acknowledged as having a transcendant appeal, so th~t the Democratic

Party is going to re-shape itself around those same axioDS?

Vice Pres.: It doesn't work that .~y, unfortunately. ~~~t happens,these roatters co~e

to a crisis;~hea~~g a ~ampaign in a highly adversary, partisan climate;o ~.o.) 1- . a4 . .

0;'-«; .' '-i(ni can see the direction) and jihen the ca.!i.\po.ign is over',1it all subsides back into a.

( big POOll.~platitud.es again. And that's ;,.here we are naY'. \ore're back into the.

more be?ign climate that follows our elections) and the

any real solution. Tnere ~on't be as much attention to

subject will be dropped without

i~~se~uentlY} those who",\ - ..

might be forced to teke a position one ~~y or another viII be able to avoid that position

J -----until next ti~e when all that went before will. be forgotten, and ¥e ~ll have to fight

the oattle az~in. ~~at's vhat's happened over the past five or six years. Every time

it cones to a big crunch because of some outrageous act of violenc~ ~~ because of a

csspa1gn}or something tl1at points up the differences -- puts the matter in· a hostile}_.--- - -- -

compare.tive status~ ~e get some move~ent in the direction that you indicate. But then

\ihen.lte fall back into_ this business of taiking about .the ple.titude~ oJWhat the pa.rties-t; ... . a.JJ (/

a~e supposed to be doin~ ~ cure of the social ills or. humanity,.iall of the bureaucratic

l~ngua~e surfaces instead or the hard t~ths) le'~e·t.he~ck in th~ same old rut again.

I sense ve'rego!ng back into that rut again.

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© ·Board .of Trustees of the Leland Stanford ~r. University.

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'~. Bu~kley: ~~. Vice President, "do I und~rstend you to s~y that, in your opinion,

lit ver~li~tlc of pe~nent value has been lc~rned from the disruptions of the last, ~e~,

years, and from the can~aign of 19707 .~ peopiz ·are already seen as slipping back-tJld i,v.

into their old "rays --4 there~ as much toleratic)TI as there w:lS So year or trio ago of

c~pus violence and the res~ of it?

---Vice P-res.:. I w[ould think that if we don't h2.ve ar-;y very bad incidents for another

·six months that when suc~ incidents take place agai~~ if indeed they do, let's hope

they don't)~ but if they do;- ve'll have to fight the sa2e old battle again for

public opinion. Principally because the people who "Till surface il!ITilediately with

vhat is supposed to be the Anlerican reaction will not be the people who had to eradu-

£.Ily be heard through voices sucq as mine, and gradually per'meate the consciousness of

overruled by the' silent majority)

the liberal intellectuals who speak for P~~erica.

a~America in the initial i~stance until they're

'" .

Let's face it -- they spea};: for

~

they think t~eJ should continue to speak that ~ay.

~~. frucy~lcy: J~d you ass~e th~t they have not, the~lselve5, been frightened.

Vice Pres.: O~, no, they're not convinced, aDQ they're not frigl1tened. ~ney're as

(l.damant to tb3.t point or viev as they've ever been.

y~. Buckley: Well, doesn~t this gainsay so~e of ~hat we agreed on a mo~ent ago that

£. lot of tl1em feel that they can discharge their punctilious obligations to partisanship(!.;

by denoun¢r)s you, but they then proceed to say certain things th~t theY- wouldri't have~~ ~~:f -,

said a few years ago.A Teddy Kenne~ vas sounding ~~h±ng like~GolQ~raterup in. Boston.- I 'v&;t~

Vice Pres.: Tnere's some modification in their opinio~based on their discovering that

some of their previously held beliefs are incoffipatible-- indefensible, Lthink, is a

better-word.~ hard attack.--'BUt that's not only true-of~he~j~S true of· me,.,--'-

I assume it' 6 true. of you, if we have an interchange on some subject about which ~Te

1

'-_" . have a violent disagreement, and you score s02e heavj" points by bringing up thingsf..tt:;, . ' ~ . ~·tIl~/~ that I can't find an answer for, tftefl I may try to evade the thrust ,of your victoryJ

vhen I go back in seclusion to consider what happ~ned~Will re-m2.kemy argument

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he learn from thate>..-perience rather tha~ go back and re-groupopinion -- why shouldn'ta~

bis argw-:J.ents -"'""-'" you come

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©Bp-a-rd _ofTrustees '?! the Leland St~nford Jr. University.

J1f'.-to avoid that pitfall next timej1 I think that happens "to'them, too.

Mr~ Buckley: Assuming the ar~~ents are available for you, right?

Vice Pres.: Tnat's ri&lt.f--- -

}/.LT. Buckley: But..~~hat happens to the profess<?r, let's say, -"Who tends to believe

that ~o~stratiO:s, however violent, however agit~ted, must be respected on the

grounds that they really are episteffiological instruments by which you find certain

hidden truths that are not available to you by·the norual"devices? ~lliat happens

Whenr~~experi:nce~a year or tl.-olwith that kind or thing shows him tha~ his col­

lege, his university, is falling apart -- that.it i~ impossible, in fa~t, to exchange

.out saying the same old things yet one more time~

"~f35T.,e.,~~Vi,ce Pres.: I don't knO'tT wh~ but I th:i-nk in too many inst~nce~do~s. lie does go

th?back and re-group his argt~ent5bec~usehis whole world is based "eft the efficacy of

" (1.~ 1'-'"

his o;inions J and he doesu't like to have them Shot/t'n'll/ }ie Js not going to give

up tnat citad.el ,,'"!tbout e. fight to the bitter en~"j.eJ~ reinforc"ed by the completely.. ;1. -- -'----

•closed cOlli:lu!lity in ....hich he lives, where other opinions similfl.r to his seem to be- the. "".:.a

whole world, and he doesn't get a chance to really joustAany contravening inforillation.(A?-~'1-~ a./ ". ";;t;

He is~exuosed to tee repetition of the sa~e arglli~ents _~hat, in SOffie cases1

gets to theI J~

point "Where the fundenentals are not ev~n questioned ap~/TIor~. They ~re treated as

revealed tl~th, rather than something that is based on fact." "-

~.r. Buckley: Well, when yoU spoke" a IilQllient ago abou~ the ldea-th~ we haven't COlLe up

t

\

with

Vice

any solutions, do you have any solutions in mind?~ .

Pres.: I thi~~ we can only continue to expose ourselves~o-eachother; that's

:-the solution.1----." "

I ~ hoping to make quite a few ap~earances in the coming two years

r-\ nth professorial types in one enviroIllilent or anqther. It would be very nice if I',--

~~~ could" go on so~e camP.uses and talk the yay we're talking here, but I would assune~:¥

that, based on past ~xperience, until there's a better method of enfo~cing the-common

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© ~oard .of Trustees of the Lelan-d Stanford ~r_ University__

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elements of courtesy, that can't happen.of

-the kind

I have noWa~

of disruttionthat public speakers exe met

intention of exposing myself to

~~th on campuses up to this point.

I find it tptally against the concept of an intellectual atmosphere, and I don't intend

to try to think through a lot of th~t kind of disruption. ~~en I see, as ~ not~d in a

column recently, I thin..te it "''as a.t the University of- li!aryland, son:e professor said it9---- ~.A-~~

was perfectly all riebt for students to demonstrate and ~disrupt speakers --4after all,

this ~as a free countr~ :- well, there's such a thing as courtesy left in the ¥orld. It's

incredible to me that a person who is given a chair at a school Of.f~arning WOQld be ~o- LJl~

crass about common courtesy as to suggest that there's nothing liTOng with..jdisruption of

I ca.n, but /

institution.L

mean that you won't be able to go to any campus in ~~

ithe in~ediate future?

en interchange of opinion between two people, obs~rved by others. »~t that's the ~aY

~~/PQ"t;: - -it is. And_ it;s going to be a hard fight. - 1 Keep on fighting it wherever

~ - ~for a guerrilla theatre ~ SOcieI'm not goiog to E~low myself to be a prop.

lA1-1r. Buc}-.le.l: -Well, does tha.~ effect

tY'J!}Vice Pres.: hell, I think it depends a lot on whether the aCLmJnistrat±ea there and

whether the faculty there are willing and reaLly want toaAu!?, --

1P conducive to civilized discourse." !f they can figure.1

would be delighted to go at any time.

- I

provide an environment that·~

out some -..ray to do th.:l.t, I

lrlr. Buckley: Has anybody tried to -- that you know of can you remem1,er?sought

- Vice Pres.: I haven't really been ;:"./,'. after heavily as a campus speaker this year.I,

~1r. Buckley: Asdistinguished:fro~last year?~Ff3:L~ -J.~---Y

Vice Pres.: Or last ~ot since mY years as Governorj -r had made a fev campus-----_·- . ~----;_. -

appearances then. B-u.t this business of the SDS end the ~~I Nean:d.erthals hadn-, t

become quite so popular.

Mr. Buckley: Well, my information is that they are less popular this year than last •. ,,,,'

-~-

~.i/- Xow; as a practicai matter, could y~u go -to ~ college, h~ving previously in~ured

- --t..ltere would not be thiB kind o-f disruPtionr~SiI!lPlY isn,~ct feasible, is it?~

that

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('.Vice Pres.: Well, it iSJ based On, the general histor-.r of the institution. I gave a

~.__./o!!lI!1encement s.peec~ at, Ohio State, I think it was the year before last -- very little

disruption -- e big ~ut.door ;!omroencez~nt, one of the biggest universities in the country.~ .

It is possi~l:i I lient to Brigham Young University and made a~ appearanc~~~ I had

no trouble there. There~ places you can go) jne President vent to Kam~as State;~j~~C(J~-me V€--Vj-~ ,,~~a smaJ.~ minority that tried to interfere with his right to be heard, but the

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©-I;lo.ard of Trus!ees ·of the Leland Stanford :~r. University.

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. other students completely disavowed that. I think lie can with the help of the adrr~nistra­-:J.

tion, With the help of' the faculty and -- most of all -- with

. of opinion that would say aillong students, I don't necessarily

student opinion, the kind#

l/J?believe-t what this man saysj

C'~~.' ..

but I respect his right to say it, and! think I owe cit to myself to hear his arguments'.

. before I make up my mind. You see, there's. an anti-intellectualism in refusing to

listen to another point of view. It bespeaks an intellectual lleakness. It indicatest1A7

a hostility and.4inexperience and a lack of maturity that's just not hand-in-glove "iith

I :/I,~OL1.ee;e life. Tr::p ."ohY I would think the students, themselves, V.Oul~ become _t~r~~y i\

upset about "thisJ .tlfuile they can't be policemen, t~ey can cert.."l,inly make known toAcol­

lege authorities their disenchantment "d.th not being able. to hear from spokesmen of the

rie;ht. No~r, I egree ""-i~h. y~u);:tire1y, "When you sa.y the right is not allowed to f',~ea~~.~ne free speech movement at Berkeley, as ~~s.pointed out by John Coyne, i~ his veryL .". . -Y- "interesting book, 'Tne Kum~uat Statement, is not really a free speech movement because

the lefti5ts~Cleaver~ and people like that-are 'allowed t? speak, but.when a conservative~~~ k.~~.,;:t~..1,p. .

-··_·group tried. to get a forum at the seheol plaza, they~llmffue~to talk. They..._.._------.... -.---- - .---- _.'- . . =. -. .~ere S~lP1y dr~wned out by all sorts of ta~tics 0,1,ci.i~ruption~

. lJP'" . . ·tJ~ ~.Mr. Buckley': In the first place, I obViously E!..gree vith yoU; .but_. i,sn't it:a- fact that

,"" .

~<­~.

when a prominent political:figure is invited on campus to speak, he is invited less.'. ~): '.

because the student~ want tO,listen to his analysis than because they want to have the

f'lavor of him'? In your case, for, instance, I would doubt very much if a typical student

body inY!ting you to speak would be satisfied with_ you, "if you spoke out of the depths. ..' .

o'

of your knowledge. of vhat was Wrong With America~.-----.

They wettl.d be rather. di6aP!f~,-;;ed.'

0,- ©-Board ofTrus±e:es of the Lelan~ Stanford jr_ Univ~rsity

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to do is just

-1:1-

,.-dO~in; just as I'm sitting heref and say, all right,

youtve got to s~y -- what do you want to hear from me 7

J'vith y~~, 11"·y6u didn't::5l1p them a-few -- a little bombast, a litEle rhetoric'-1so on

and "so":f'o:th.

Vice Pres.: rlell, I don't thin..1< I ShOuld::speaY<c41 would like--~19o there a.nd stand up~r sit

0:!!!!t:.!:!~/" ~i--o 't~3J_.bereT am~-~ let's hear v~at

'-

w:.v It II talk about any subject you vant; It 11 give you my convictions; I'll give you

my conclusiqns, and you decide the f'orreat. Because that' s ho~" the interest could

really develop. I think the prepared speech would be not nearly 50 valuable as a

Q & A .session with students.o

Hr. Buckley: rTe~ ~an you anticipate what \rould l;le tile questions that such students

vould most likely ask you?uJtL' JtP

(_. _ Vice Pres.: Well, there would be sor::e t;':) utilize the

-.../;- a..:<P tt.Lo'l/ "I~-~

•to make a speech themselves, of' course. I~f~~~d be asked, I'm certain,' about Vietnam}

"'1'1 ->-- - JI"\~-, - 4'!- <{':<.. a/Jio.;d.! ~l:~~~.(.' . .' __ ' .;-

- . the right to dissent, why the social ~roble~s of the country had1i't'been 'fully solved,d./J-R./ ~u---e­

'Why there is still hunger in the .country, ....by we have people on welfare, why ",,"::' Te

spending ell t3is mone~~natiOnaldefense, and th~ usual ~uestious that see~ to be

of concern on the c~puse~. And I'm preparei to discuss those ~atters in SOUte detail

vith them.~

l-ti-. Bucldey: Bat ...-here you"re concerned, wouldn't they priLl3-rily say~' how dare you

dismiss as idiotic anybody who participated in the anti-Vietnam demonstrations -- and_ -' .. : - d:-<1.J '-'" ' .. '-- _..

how' dare you call everybody ",ho voted for the Hatfield-NeGov-ern Act an isolationist --_- () - - 7'17_":'- -1 .

.-!l-O c:rY1~ v/'....L .

and..f so forth? Is~t the kind 01" thing/!th~~ likelY.:~o~ at you? ."

Vice Pres.: Oh, I think some .of·that, certainly.If'

:}'fr. Buckley:' And you would reply?

()e

Vice Pres.: I vould reply that the peopl.e •....ho voted for the Hatfield-McGovern Resolu-." -aJ. .

tion ~~e . isolationists". because the.:(.~ step ~hat ,,-as pro~osed ~h wes simply

dlsecgaging us ~~thout eny 8afeguard~4 our comrnittments in ~ia/1 ;fnat's not a

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© Board:of TrustB~s of the Leland Stanford Jr. Univ~rsjty."

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0-'-'~~~ib~~_l{3.y,,t~ proceed"l?ased on our ,historical k.'1owledee of '-the North Vietnanese and, .,:,/' , " " a •..dJ~r'c

'" _,,__~h~t they':,ve done since fifteen years ag~'" /ifteen years ago they. liquidated the

North Vietnam~me:50,ooOassassinations took place to bring

agrari~n reform~~ fince that time they've been continuing their

8tructure of life in,.t,.j ,. about a so-called

__ .. .e.ggressive actions, and anyone who ha.s lTatched the course of negotiations kno~rs the/'re

not at all serious about trying to reach some reasonable solution to the problem. Yes,

I think I'm. prepared ,to 'answer these questions. Tnere's a widely-held misconception. . " IA)JLQ.f d-/

that I call students, "effete snobs." /niS Is ridiculous.' T'nis is typical of the-,

tactic o:f the media~;~re they strip qualifications from your remar~s as they

repeat them. I said that some of the deG10nstrators were encour~ed by an effete corps

It's pretty hard'to, /~,,.jJ~(.L-'4-<1

qualifications,?as-±-say:,

of ir~p'J,dent snobs; and I didn't say that the demonstr2.tors, themselves, ,:ere snobs/,tP4 '

~ut pretty soon It got to b<;r thet all.. of' them lTere snobs -- and-f the ne~t thing I knew~

C"" I: all students ..ere snobs) ).'1~ then all young pe9ple are snobs.

~J-:-~ ~co:p~ ":ith th~t 'thing ~-he; 'if::' picked up arid"rip·~a.ted'w'lth the, Jj1ftf' ~.a¥-JJ CRaL;~ uM;cx ",

_,,--=--:=~~ri:9ped ~~~Yf ~-:.=-.;-t happens today in the media. ,I can vouch for it •

. (Station Break)" u)~

lorr. B-u.ckl,ey: Mr. ,Agnew, taking into consic1eration that what you say becomes truncated

and Is thro'-ffi Ol.lt as. meaning 50mething different from what you actually said, and tak­,./\

Ipg into account all these di5tortions, it!s nevertheless true that ~ou have spoken

unusually. Now, Professor John Roche was once, not very long ago; the president of'.~~":"-,-=--.--- ... - -_. -, -~..,.-.- ~" - ' .- '~- -

the kiericans for Democratic Action; and he 'W-rotF) a month or two ago; he said, "in

fa~t, Americcns have always lOOked on politics as a body contact sport and were by 1969

'extremely bored' by the one-sidedness of the match. Into this'vacuUnl CRffie Spiro Agnew.

~c~L~lly, his first hard speeches were pretty m11d~ say, by comparison with any of

. "J FbR' B assauJ.ts on his opponents • .And by 19th Century stan~ards, lIT. Agney wouldn't even"'- .

;:~"~.....: have mad~ it into the big ring. But his Victims responded as though they were en route

>&-~___._"0 labor camps." Now, if I understand loIr. Roche, what~ saying Is that your code

of expressing yourself is in the Amer.ban tradition, but that people you are criticizing

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haven't had to answer

©-Soard,ofTrustees of the Lelanq Stanford Jr zniverSit_ - -~19- ". . -

up to the Herblockian style. Al'ld under the circUl:tstance_s, they

And is it or is it not true, therefore, that you are putting off so~e people who are

-.(natural allies of yours, as the result of the toughness of your rl1etoric? •

t:~'AU- Vice P-res.: lorell, I think t-ffi:-a-4-s- a possibility tha.t I e.::n alienating some allies

._IIl3.inly because __of_ the _trllncation _~ha~_!.c:>u._~_ntion, more than what I've said. I think

my speeches_bear sc~tiny as- entities and would ~ turn off my allies. But, taken

out of context, sectionalized, utilized in ways that vere never intended out of the

c::.

time frame, sonetimes -- they do have that effect. It's a risk I IiIUst take. But I

. "lttJ

, I.,must get the attention of my audience •• )Ge~ me give you an example __~~st night I gave

-n speech right here in Nev Yo~k before the Boys Clubs of Ar~erica -- a speech that I

thought ~as a good one -- one I worked on very hard and very long. I thought it said. ~r~

something concerning the new anti-cultllre, which I tgek pains to say did not apply

entirely-to yOUt11. It ~~5 generally called a- y6ut~ culture, but there were a lot of\Fo.73"

adults that s~pyorted it, and a lot of youth didn't. ~nat speech/n-e-conciliatory

frame as far as not EakiD3 a judgment about the propriety of the anti-culture, but

simply delineating its characteristics and stating the dangers that" we would undergo

as a nation if everjone took it up ~~erJon~ dropped out of-responSi~ilitY~~~_ :J Q.A..~~,J[",,--e'l -;)_

no-one wanted power; ;that speech attracte~no attention. It g0lnuy?e a qu~rter of a .

COllrrill1.N~w, if I had ~ritten that speech differently ~q if I had wi'itten that speech- -: - ---- ,-- - ---~---_-;:..J -- --__ ._

~ ,.in the h~rd edversary fashion of Des Moines, I would have received a great amount of

attention, a great emount of reporting of it, a great amount of co~entarf on it. So,

if you're going to ~e heard, you can't be heard b~wa~ing

'you've got to take certain risks of having them utilized

to get the point even before the public •

- - .. ---speeches in a vacuum, _~nd-

..:'l("~ ...

,<;' loir. Buckley: Well, -doe::? this mean that when you sit down to write e. speech that you

want very much to be e. resonant speech, ~ou so~etirees find yourselr building into it

that abrasiveness which people subsequently criticize because it's the only way to./ ----

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nmch#I've enjoyed very much.J .

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©~.oard ofTrustees of the Leland Stanford _Jr. University."

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--._--,-- - ... - -'---'-.draw attention to the speec·h?--·- -,--_.-

Vice Pres.: I thiru~ that's true. You do it unconsciously because you vant to hit hardr~u

with this speech. You want it to get some attention. ~.~want it to be provocative.

I wouldn't say abrasive, necessarily, but you ~~nt it to be provocativ:; ;t~d·i~ it1s

provocative- it will abrade some people. ~

J.!r. Buckley: Well, !-1r. Vice President, thank you/very

talkir.g with you, and I appreciate the candor o~ your anSlTer6. Thank you, ladies and

gentlemen.

Vice Pres.: Tnank you.

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