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Transcript of the Testimony of Michael Seibert

Date:November 15, 2013Volume:I

Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: November 30, 2013

Holliday Reporting Service, IncPhone: 417-358-4078

Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]

Internet


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Michael Seibert In Re: Joplin Critical Investigati

417-358-4078Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.

Page

IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

MICHAEL SEIBERT

Taken on Friday, November 15, 2013, from 3:40 p.m. to 4:16

p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626

S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of

Missouri, before

SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,

a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and

for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.


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APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE

Loraine & Associates, LLC

4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300

Osage Beach, MO 65065

[email protected]


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Page

S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn

Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by

SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and

afterwards reduced into typewriting.

It is further stipulated that the signature of the

witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of

said witness shall be of the same force and effect as

though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.


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I N D E X

Page/Line

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4

E X H I B I T S

Exhibit #A. . . . . . (not identified)

Advice of Rights

Note: Exhibits in separate binder

(sic) - typed as spoken

(ph.) - phonetic


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1 MICHAEL SEIBERT

2 Having been first duly sworn and examined,

3 testified as follows:

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:

5 Q. State your name.

6 A. Michael Seibert.

7 Q. Mr. Seibert, you're on the City Council?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. You know that I was retained by the City

10 Council as a whole, it wasn't just part of

11 you, but as a whole, and my job was basically

12 three areas and collateral damage that arises

13 out of those questions if that happens. The

14 first question was what, if anything, did Mr.

15 Woolston do wrong. The second question,

16 what, if anything, did Mr. Scearce do wrong.

17 And the third question is how did the famous

18 note come from Manager Rohr's desk. And he's

19 very concerned about that and I think I would

20 be, too, if it was a note off my desk. So

21 those are the three issues and now there have

22 been some collateral issues that have come

23 up, I will not bore you with those details

24 until I submit my report, but I will be

25 submitting a report hopefully in Chambers in


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1 closed meeting and you all can grill me, it

2 will be a chance for me to talk with you

3 guys, so I've got to be a little bit careful

4 what I say to you. Having said that, Mr.

5 Seibert, tell me anything you know about any

6 of those issues or any collateral issues that

7 involve the divided board that appears to be

8 or the circumstances surrounding employees or

9 whatever.

10 A. Well, the first issue around Mike Woolston,

11 you know, I knew that this issue had been

12 brought up by others on the Council and they

13 had brought it to the City Attorney's

14 attention, Brian Head, to be reviewed and a

15 decision rendered, and then Council received

16 a confidential memorandum from Attorney Head

17 stating that he had thoroughly reviewed this

18 and saw no conflict of interest or no

19 impropriety on Woolston's part, but did

20 caution that moving forward we'd make sure if

21 he needed to recuse himself or not make a

22 vote that those were things that we needed to

23 make sure that we did properly. So I looked

24 at this accusation by Benji or Bill or

25 whoever wanted to bring that forward as, you


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1 know, just a way to kind of move the target a

2 little bit. But that's, you know, I took the

3 information that the City Attorney gave me as

4 face value, that this has been vetted by the

5 City Attorney and that the concerns that have

6 been brought forward were of nonissue, and

7 that's kind of where I --

8 Q. That's all you know about that issue?

9 A. Uh-huh.

10 Q. Are you a realtor?

11 A. No, I'm a drug rep.

12 Q. That's hard to see how you could get involved

13 in any of this.

14 A. Nope.

15 Q. Unless some of these guys are on drugs.

16 A. That could be.

17 Q. Yeah. I didn't say that. Mr. Seibert, in

18 regard to number two, Bill Scearce, how long

19 have you known Mr. Scearce?

20 A. You know, I've known Bill most of my adult

21 life. Not well, just know who he is. The

22 only exposure that I've had to Bill over

23 those years was some of the different

24 businesses that he's owned. One was for a

25 period of time I knew he owned an Army


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1 surplus place.

2 Q. Are you approximately - what age are you?

3 A. I'm 55. So he's the age of my parents.

4 Q. There you go. I understand. So that's what

5 you meant most of your adult life.

6 A. Right. And to say we're friends or

7 acquaintances, minimal or very, very little.

8 Most of my exposure to Bill has been through

9 Council.

10 Q. How long have you been on the Council?

11 A. I'm finishing up - well, it will be six years

12 in April.

13 Q. First six years?

14 A. Pardon me?

15 Q. Is this your first?

16 A. Well, I fulfilled a vacated Council seat for

17 about 18 months and I'm almost finishing up

18 my first four year Council term.

19 Q. I'm with you.

20 A. But back to say I'm a friend of Bill's or

21 have known Bill, it's just, you know, very -

22 we knew who each other were or we'd say hi,

23 but to say we ran in the same circles, we did

24 not.

25 Q. And no social?


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1 A. No, if it was it was by happenstance, not --

2 Q. Okay. Now there's been some discussion about

3 him being potential indictment charge for

4 gambling or something. What do you know about

5 that?

6 A. Not a potential indictment. He was

7 interviewed by the FBI and it was my

8 understanding that there was no indictment

9 through the FBI investigation. He just

10 had --

11 Q. Some information?

12 A. He just had a role. He just had a role. And

13 to me depending upon what that role was, you

14 know, I think that speaks to the ethics of an

15 individual. And now recently, more recently,

16 and I think almost more pertinent than what

17 he did back during this period is how

18 truthful he's being currently right now about

19 his recanting of his participation in the FBI

20 investigation. Which is why I feel like as a

21 Council we were in a position where we needed

22 to also request the FBI file so we could see

23 for ourselves what kind of involvement, what

24 kind of answers he was giving to their

25 questions and now we have to compare that to


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1 the answers that he's giving us right now and

2 to me that's kind of where we are.

3 Q. Well, the FBI report, I'm just going to say I

4 don't have it and the City doesn't have it.

5 A. But our request of you is to do everything

6 you can to try to get --

7 Q. And I've instructed Mr. Head as the City

8 Attorney, you know. I'm appointed on a

9 specific issue, but he's an official of this

10 city and he has guaranteed me that he will -

11 I've given him a name of general counsel and

12 I've asked them to address that to see what,

13 if anything, he can do to help expedite that

14 information. I will tell you as an ex-U.S.

15 attorney, I was an assistant for five years,

16 and I can tell you that FBI reports are

17 extremely difficult to obtain, and the reason

18 they are is for the reason here stated, what,

19 if anything, does it mean that the FBI

20 questioned him. I've been questioned by the

21 FBI.

22 A. Sure.

23 Q. So what does that mean?

24 A. Sure.

25 Q. It means nothing. And so what I'm saying is


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1 we even have a better source, a better

2 source, Lane Roberts, and Lane won't talk.

3 A. Well, I think he - will he answer any

4 questions?

5 Q. No, he wouldn't answer the pertinent

6 questions.

7 A. I understand that. I understand why he's

8 probably not doing that, but --

9 Q. That's the best source. I mean he's read the

10 report he says.

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. But now you're my boss and some day you're

13 going to have me in front of you just as

14 you're in front of me, and the question

15 really is, and I don't want to get into

16 specifics, but I will say that I had two

17 people that should have information that

18 don't give me anything. Does that mean they

19 don't have any information? Does it mean - I

20 don't care what it means, it means I don't

21 get anything and that's somewhat impeding

22 this investigation. Now certainly I've

23 questioned Mr. Scearce as I'm questioning

24 everyone about all three of these items, but

25 credibility. Yeah, I kind of laugh a little


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1 bit because we're accusing a politician of

2 lying and I think to myself, oh, is that

3 unusual? And unfortunately it is not

4 unusual.

5 A. Right.

6 Q. So I'm troubled with why I can't get the real

7 information from people that supposedly have

8 it. If it's an ongoing investigation it

9 would not be an ongoing investigation against

10 this particular man because it would have

11 resulted in nothing or it would have resulted

12 in an indictment. So that doesn't happen.

13 So if it's an ongoing investigation on

14 interstate crime and snitches are mentioned

15 and stuff like that they're never going to

16 give me that report. They're not going to

17 give anybody that report. They won't even

18 give that to your senator probably. Now one

19 of your guys had a good idea, send a letter

20 out, I'm going to have Brian send that letter

21 out and I'm going to copy in the guys we vote

22 for. Now if that doesn't work I don't know

23 what will.

24 A. Right.

25 Q. And I suspect it won't.


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1 A. And I understand what you're saying, but you

2 have to walk a mile in this Council's shoes.

3 We have spent a long time building the public

4 trust, especially post tornado, and within a

5 very short period of time this current

6 Council has really destroyed the public

7 trust.

8 Q. I agree that your Council as a whole is not

9 operating the way a Council ought to be

10 operating.

11 A. I completely agree.

12 Q. And whether or not that is one side or the

13 other side is one of my issues. Who among

14 these people are guilty of splitting this

15 Council and why. I mean why is that

16 happening? It's certainly to the detriment

17 of the City.

18 A. Oh, I agree. I agree.

19 Q. It's at a very bad time, too, because

20 everybody in the world thinks poor Joplin,

21 everybody has got their heart out in their

22 hand and we're allowed to slip through.

23 A. That's one of the reasons that I would really

24 like for this to come to a resolution, and I

25 would like - whether - I personally think the


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1 way Mr. Scearce is wired there is no way he's

2 going to step down and there's not enough

3 votes because of the relationship that he has

4 on Council and the lifelong friends he's got

5 on that Council and the number of votes

6 you've got to get in order to remove somebody

7 from Council, there's no way that that's

8 probably going to be achieved. So what

9 you're going to see is an even further divide

10 within this city of civil leaders and

11 residents banding together probably and

12 putting a petition together and vote him off

13 in the next election.

14 Q. I mean my civics tell me that when somebody

15 does something bad the result is they can't

16 get re-elected. Now I've seen Mr. Clay in St.

17 Louis keep getting elected and I know

18 personally from the U.S. Attorney's office

19 that that should probably not have happened.

20 A. But, see, Scearce isn't going to be elected

21 anymore. He's done. He's done. But he's

22 causing problems, he's causing the City to go

23 on a course that is not beneficial to the

24 City. And those are my opinions and they're

25 shared with a lot of other people, but I


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1 think part of what could possibly come from

2 this would be the level - you know, if enough

3 information came out to contradict some of

4 his earlier statements and earlier things

5 that he's said then there could be enough

6 momentum based on that for these people to

7 come forward and say, you know, I'm ready to

8 get signatures.

9 Q. And it's a political process.

10 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is about the

11 best thing we can get.

12 Q. I don't know of any other way we can do it.

13 A. No, and unfortunately from his standpoint if

14 you've watched his history the only time he

15 comes with a little more, he becomes a little

16 more forthright is when he's cornered. When

17 he is forced to - when he is put in a

18 position to be more forthright. The last

19 time he did that was when we hired you. Two

20 days later he calls the Globe and says, well,

21 I really did participate in that or I did

22 have knowledge of that.

23 Q. He said I had knowledge?

24 A. Right, but that only happens when he is

25 forced to.


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1 Q. Okay. I'm going to go back to see what I

2 think is - maybe I should put pressure on

3 that Police Chief to say whatever he will

4 say. I mean I can do that and come back to

5 you guys and say, yeah, I think this guy

6 should be fired if he doesn't cooperate. And

7 I've had that discussion with him and he

8 said, well, I can't contribute. Well, he

9 says he'd step down before that. I don't

10 know, maybe he would.

11 A. He's a pretty honorable man. And that's the

12 --

13 Q. How did this situation develop? See, that's

14 what I'm wanting to know, how did this

15 situation develop? Well, there's this note

16 issue.

17 A. It goes back further than that.

18 Q. I mean there's a note and I've got a guy

19 pretty mad about the note being taken off his

20 desk he says, and I don't blame him. I think

21 I'm to the bottom of that, I think, but we'll

22 see.

23 A. What this gets down to in my mind --

24 Q. See, I don't know anybody.

25 A. I gotcha. I gotcha. And the problem is that


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1 there is knowledge of this investigation, his

2 activity in this organization, and it's a

3 criminal activity that he was condoning and

4 he was accepting rent from, and all that was

5 tried to be done I know through the Globe's

6 request for this FBI file was to be able to

7 get that information out there before an

8 election so citizens could make an informed

9 choice. And we just had delay, delay, delay,

10 delay, and now he's breezed past his last

11 election and so he's clear of that.

12 Q. Thank God I didn't delay it.

13 A. All I'm saying is that's the history. I mean

14 there have been so many people that said, you

15 know, if people just knew the history here

16 would they have elected him.

17 Q. And the question I keep going back to, is if

18 there's somebody that's got information why

19 don't they give it to me? Maybe there isn't

20 any information. Did that thought ever come

21 to you?

22 A. Oh, sure.

23 Q. I just can't understand why I've got two cops

24 that don't have anything to say, won't even

25 contribute. There's other people that won't


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1 contribute to this process.

2 A. Can Brian give you any legal guidance for

3 that?

4 Q. I have a lot more legal guidance than Brian

5 has on this issue. I know what I can do. I

6 can recommend that they bring him in and he

7 either answers or he suffers the loss of job.

8 Would you guys do that? I don't know. I

9 doubt it. And then it's nothing. But if you

10 did it --

11 A. I mean is there a way that the information

12 that he would reveal be limited to discussion

13 in a closed session of Council?

14 Q. Sure, this is closed. Now I would take this

15 down to protect me so that somebody doesn't

16 say, Mr. Loraine, you cheated. I don't want

17 that. We can't have that. But what we can do

18 is agree that this particular segment, that

19 these reports and frankly I don't think these

20 reports go anywhere. I think I ought to

21 retain them frankly. That's what I think.

22 But Council is my boss. I don't mean to be

23 give and take, but you're my boss, and I'm

24 sitting here asking you questions so I've got

25 to try to be honest with everybody.


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1 A. I appreciate that. And I don't have --

2 Q. So you really can't help me really on two?

3 A. No, because I have no first-hand knowledge.

4 Q. Right.

5 A. I have other than the information that's out

6 there in the community --

7 Q. Mr. Rohr came in here. He didn't have any

8 first-hand knowledge either.

9 A. Huh-uh. Oh, I know.

10 Q. Well, you know, he didn't have any knowledge

11 for me on this issue. I'm a little bit

12 disturbed by that.

13 A. Well, I mean --

14 Q. The only sources I got is nobody has got any

15 knowledge for me. That is a little

16 frustrating.

17 A. Well, I understand that, but I also know and

18 respect Chief Roberts that, you know, --

19 Q. Chief Roberts is Chief Roberts. He'll either

20 tell me there's something there or he won't.

21 If he would just say, hey, this guy was the

22 source at one point of the investigation, but

23 he can't say nothing. I mean, come on.

24 That's malarkey. As an Assistant U.S.

25 Attorney and as an investigator I don't buy


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1 that. You know what, that throws a rumor out

2 and let the rumor do the indictment.

3 A. Right.

4 Q. So if there is something there I'm doing my

5 derndest to get to that bottom. But you know

6 what I will be able to do? I will be able to

7 tell you here's - hell, I've probably

8 investigated, I don't know, thirty people so

9 far. I've got some more to go. Some people

10 won't help me. I thought I had Mr. Lovett,

11 the actual crook. He agreed to testify to

12 me. He told me something on the phone. I

13 said, well, can you come in because I don't

14 want to take anything from him. He talked to

15 his lawyer and his answer is, no, he can't

16 come in, he doesn't want to talk about any of

17 those things anymore. He already served some

18 time. I thought who served some time would

19 be good. You know, what else has he done?

20 But, you know, I can't get anybody to talk to

21 me and that's really frustrating to a guy

22 that --

23 A. To me --

24 Q. But, you know what, I can't make him come in.

25 A. No.


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1 Q. But I can make Mr. Roberts come in. Why

2 won't he tell me?

3 A. Well, I think --

4 Q. Well, it is not a matter of what we think.

5 He won't come in.

6 A. There's some extensive information that is

7 known out there, it's not been revealed to

8 me, and if we can't get it out and nobody

9 will --

10 Q. You know what, do you know what you have

11 done, though, it's out there. I mean if this

12 guy had to run for another election I doubt

13 that he could ever get elected.

14 A. It's not that. You know, I can tell you from

15 the input that I get in my interactions with

16 people around this city they're embarrassed

17 by his actions, they think it's deleterious

18 to the city. The last thing they ever want

19 is for him to be Mayor and so those are --

20 Q. Well, that won't ever happen.

21 A. You can't say that.

22 Q. He can't get elected again.

23 A. We don't elect the Mayor publicly.

24 Q. I know, but can he get elected? I mean I

25 thought you said he was in his last term?


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1 A. A Mayor is elected every two years --

2 Q. Does he have a four year term left?

3 A. Correct, he's finished - this next April

4 he'll be halfway through his four year term,

5 and every two years as seated Council elects

6 the Mayor from within so --

7 Q. You know who the two guys are I wouldn't

8 elect? Do you know the two guys I wouldn't

9 elect?

10 A. Who is that?

11 Q. I wouldn't elect Woolston and I wouldn't

12 elect him. And you know why? Because

13 there's just too much out there.

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. Everybody is throwing mud at the whole

16 Council because of this.

17 A. Right.

18 Q. That's a shame. You guys work hard. You

19 don't get paid anything. You're busting your

20 --

21 A. I can tell you I was with Woolston for three

22 or four days straight right after the tornado

23 in the command center. I've never seen

24 somebody more committed to this town, to this

25 Council, and at the same time, you know, a


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1 number of other Council members had other

2 issues going on and they were, you know, they

3 were dealing with other things and they only

4 got re-engaged when they wanted to get

5 re-engaged. And there's been a lot of hard

6 work done and --

7 Q. I understand, but you know what, I'm not

8 looking at that issue.

9 A. Oh, I understand. I understand. But for you

10 to say you wouldn't re-elect Woolston --

11 Q. Well, I wouldn't. If I was on the Council I

12 wouldn't elect either one of these guys. Why

13 ask for more problems?

14 A. Oh, no, I don't think Woolston wants to be

15 Mayor.

16 Q. I don't think he would be.

17 A. No, no, no, no, no.

18 Q. But you know what I'm saying to you, I've

19 been at this for a long time, since 1971, and

20 I wish people would not give me any windows,

21 but I want facts. That's what I want is

22 facts.

23 A. And I appreciate that and that's what - given

24 our position with this we didn't have many

25 other choices.


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1 Q. No, you guys are at the end of the road.

2 A. I mean this was the most logical thing that

3 --

4 Q. I mean that's the issue.

5 A. No, I don't think they will. I think there

6 will be people that will take this and

7 they'll come to the conclusion that people

8 that won't come forward to talk had something

9 that they didn't want to reveal for good

10 reason, and I think they will infer, right or

11 wrong I think they'll infer guilt through

12 that.

13 Q. Well, you know what, and the finder of facts

14 can do what they want. You're the finder of

15 fact really.

16 A. But I think it will go beyond Council, as it

17 should. I think this will probably motivate

18 some of the business leaders and some

19 citizens to come forward with a possible

20 action against Scearce, which is about all

21 that's left out there because like I said he

22 won't step down, they'll have to drag him

23 off, and he won't do that, and there's not

24 enough votes to get him off because of the

25 relationships he's got on Council. That's


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1 about the only thing that we could do because

2 there was so much being brought out in the

3 press and the press wasn't getting anywhere.

4 Q. The press has already gotten what they need.

5 They've got this issue out in front of

6 everybody.

7 A. But they couldn't get what they wanted. They

8 couldn't get the FBI report. And it wasn't

9 our position, if we hadn't requested it,

10 also, to sit there and be supportive of the

11 press, we needed to have our own request out

12 there.

13 Q. And I am going to promise you that has

14 already been requested.

15 A. And that's fine. That's all we could do.

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I realize, and I know a number do, that we

18 have a limited opportunity, a limited role in

19 this.

20 Q. Yes, we do.

21 A. And this is the best thing that we can do

22 given the circumstances, we can debate and

23 lament, but this is --

24 Q. You know what I'd like to say about this is

25 that if the FBI really had something, either


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1 they're politically motivated, which I can't

2 believe that Mr. Scearce has any control or

3 authority over the FBI agent, I don't know

4 anybody that does including the Assistant

5 U.S. Attorneys. They operate within a vacuum

6 and, man, they're tough. So having said that

7 if there was something there they'd get a

8 quick indictment they would have done that,

9 because an indictment usually means a

10 conviction.

11 A. Honestly I have no doubt that he's not - he

12 probably has not had - he has not - what he

13 did rose to the level of a criminal

14 indictment. Does it rise to the level of

15 ethics violations for someone who sits on the

16 City Council? Possibly. And I think here's

17 the link that people would like to know right

18 now. Are the things that he's denied true or

19 false today? The things that he's out there

20 talking about, is he truthful to the voters

21 in his answers? And if they can find that

22 he's not truthful today about his answers of

23 what he did for most people that's an ethics

24 violation today, not ten, twelve, fourteen

25 years ago.


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1 Q. Twenty.

2 A. Whatever. That's the point. If you have the

3 moral background, if you have the moral

4 makeup that you can just sit there and not

5 tell the truth then --

6 Q. I think certainly credibility is always an

7 issue.

8 A. And that's where it's going to lie --

9 Q. That really lies in the voting booth.

10 A. Absolutely. And there's no voting

11 opportunity. There is if they want to do a

12 recall, and there might be enough through

13 this that may or may not motivate them.

14 Q. Recall work in a - because I've never looked

15 that up.

16 A. I think there has to be a percent of

17 signatures based on the last election, I

18 think, or the last cycle and then you have to

19 meet that level of signatures and then it's

20 placed on the ballot.

21 Q. That would be city wide?

22 A. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

23 Q. That would be a large number.

24 A. Just depends on how motivated people are.

25 And we can't control that and we shouldn't


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1 control that.

2 Q. Probably not. Well, is there anything on

3 number three that you can give me?

4 A. No, just from what I've heard. I mean I'd

5 like to know the answers.

6 Q. I think I've got the answer on that one.

7 You'll be happy with the answer. I mean

8 you'll be satisfied, I think. I don't know

9 if you'll be happy, but you'll be satisfied.

10 A. Well, my concern was if it was someone in the

11 City that helped facilitate that I have an

12 issue with that. If in some way Bill has not

13 been truthful about what's happened I have an

14 issue with that. But other than that I mean

15 I don't have an answer.

16 Q. Let me ask you the catch-all question. Is

17 there anything that I haven't asked you about

18 that you want me to look into?

19 A. You know, I know that there have been people

20 who worked for Bill that I encouraged to come

21 in and interview with you.

22 Q. Bill?

23 A. Scearce, yeah, that worked for him and I've

24 encouraged some folks that this is an

25 opportunity to have this conversation


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1 separate from the media that would give them

2 an opportunity if there were things they

3 would like to reveal or clarify, so hopefully

4 that's been done.

5 Q. I have had some input from that standpoint.

6 Anything else, sir? What we've talked about

7 here, this is your investigation, I would

8 like you to promise me to keep it in here,

9 what you've said, and I'm asking that of

10 everyone. There still is a couple of Council

11 members that haven't expressed any interest

12 to talk to me. I think one is Raney.

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. One is Raney and there's another one. Or

15 maybe not anymore. Yeah, I think I've got

16 everybody but Raney.

17 A. She's out of town.

18 Q. Well, I'll come back. I sure hope she'll

19 talk to me. She's one of my bosses, too.

20 A. (Indicating)

21 Q. What does that mean?

22 A. That means she can't record that.

23 Q. May the record show. I hope, sir, that I can

24 produce some kind of product that will bring

25 some kind of peace to this neighborhood.


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1 A. I don't think it will. I think what you will

2 be able to provide possibly is a direction

3 for people in the City to do, voters to do

4 something, not Council. Council doesn't have

5 enough I don't think to do anything.

6 Q. How long are you on the Council still?

7 A. I'm up for re-election in April.

8 Q. Are you going to run again?

9 A. I am.

10 Q. You've had a lot of fun and you want some

11 more?

12 A. It's too damn important right now. We need

13 better leadership within Council and a

14 direction and I want to be a part of it.

15 Q. I know the pay isn't very good.

16 A. I'm telling you, five bucks a meeting, two

17 meetings a month. That's a pretty sweet

18 retirement. No, you don't do it for that. I

19 grew up here, lived here all my life, and

20 we've got a once in a lifetime opportunity to

21 get this right and to get diverted and be

22 distracted with what we've got going on right

23 now and some of the thinking we've got with

24 some it's just very, very frustrating. But

25 that's why you have elections every two


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Page 3

1 years, too.

2 Q. I think somebody had some wisdom to say, you

3 know, if it gets to smelling bad you just

4 throw them all out and start all over. You

5 know, it doesn't seem to work that way on a

6 federal level, though.

7 A. No, it doesn't, but I think people are, at

8 least some people are watching more than they

9 did, maybe.

10 Q. You know, our framers said here it is, can

11 you keep it, and you know what, I want to

12 know how it managed to - and I'm just

13 speaking of history. I have an undergraduate

14 history degree and I went to law school, but

15 I wonder if we're at the end. I don't know.

16 A. No, I don't think we're at the end, I think

17 we just need to refocus on the basis. The

18 framework is incredible.

19 Q. Well, yeah.

20 A. The Bill of Rights and the things that went

21 in --

22 Q. Yeah, those guys were pretty smart. I don't

23 think we've got enough smart guys really in

24 today's government that I don't think they

25 could reproduce.


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1 A. Oh, I guarantee you.

2 Q. Look at the Obamacare document. We've got a

3 Declaration and a Constitution that probably

4 can be twenty pages or less, and we've got

5 one bill or one issue that's, what, 2,000,

6 3,000 pages. Does that tell you something?

7 A. Any time you add 16,000 IRS agents to enforce

8 your health care plan you've got something

9 else going on.

10 Q. Kind of frightening.

11 A. It's really frightening.

12 Q. We'd better get off the record here.

13

14 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED)

15

16

17


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Page 3

REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI

ss.

COUNTY OF JASPER

I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the

State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the

foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the

15th day of November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was

examined. That examination was then taken by me by

steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn

Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set

out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith

returned.

I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or

relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of

either party or of the attorney of either party, or

otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

_________________________

SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650