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Scriptures and Doctrine :: Last Days Doctrine

Last Days Doctrine - posted by letsgetbusy (), on: 2005/8/11 16:29Please try to stay on topic with this, brothers and sisters.

I am somewhat familiar with the end times doctrines that are used in the Left Behind series. I have heard two people thatI respect tell me that there are errors in the line of thinking that is in current, popular end times teaching.

Please present flaws of the current end times teaching with Scripture only, please(no opinions of modern prophets).

Re: Last Days Doctrine, on: 2005/8/12 9:39So i take this is a Pre-trib/mid/post discussion.

Here are a few scriptures. (I'll let the scriptures speak for themselves, using highlights (bold,underline, itatlics))

**Scriptures are in different versions to show what the greek/hebrew says without quoting all the greek and stuff, if youhave a problem with the translation then go to www.blueletterbible.org and check out the orginal language yourself...**

Rev. 3:10 (AMP)

10 Because you have guarded and kept My word of patient endurance , I also will keep you from the hour of trial (testing) which is coming on the whole world to try those who dwell upon the earth.

Proverbs 10:30 (KJV)30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

John 17:15 (AMP)15 I do not ask that You will take them out of the world, but that You will keep and protect them from the evil one.

Acts 1:9-12 (NASB)

9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.

11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.

Zech. 14:4-5 (NASB)

4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount ofOlives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!

1 Thess. 5:15-16 (NASB)

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15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Cor. 15:50-54 (NASB)

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raisedimperishable, and we will be changed.

53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

Rev. 10:7 (NASB) 7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, asHe preached to His servants the prophets.

Rev. 11:15-19 (NASB)

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,

17 saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and greatÂ— and for destroying those who destroy the earth." 19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Rev. 16:17-21 (NASB)

17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

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20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

John 6:39 (NASB)

39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

I hope this is clear enough.

If you need commentary for me to connect the dots...i ask that you RE READ IT SLOWER, and compare the scriptures. God bless

Re: Last Days Doctrine, on: 2005/8/12 10:35The list of posttribulationalists.

Jay Adams

William Albright

Archibald Alexander

J. A. Alexander

Henry Alford

Oswald T. Allis

S.J. Andrews

Matthew Arnold

Francis Asbury

G. L. E. Bachmann

H. A. Baker

Glen Barker

David Baron

Freeman E. Barton

Don Basham

Clarence Bass

Walter Bauer

J. Sidlow Baxter

Richard Baxte

W. J. Ern Baxter

George Beasley

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I. T. Beckwith

J. A. Bengel

Donald E. Benson

G. Fred Bergin

Louis Berkhof

G. C. Berkouwer

J. H. Bernard

Robert Besancon

Peter Beyerhaus

E. H. Bickersteth

W. E. Biederwolf

R. V. Bingham

Del Birkey

T. R. Birks

C. Y. Biss

J. Allen Blair

Friedrich Bleek

Horatius Bonar

William Booth

David Brainerd

Al Brickner

Thomas Brightman

Michael Brigmond

J. A. Broadus

Charles Brokenshire

J. W. Brooks

John Bunyan

Thomas Broughton

David Brown

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Lionel Brown

W. G. Brown

F. F. Bruce

William Burgh

Clarke Burkhalter

Herbert W. Butt

John Calvin

Robert Cameron

Edward J. Carnell

B. H. Carroll

Buddy Carroll

Johnny Carroll

Alexander Carson

Thomas Chalmers

Robert Chapman

R. H. Charles

T. K. Cheyne

Thedor Christlieb

John Chrysostom

W. W. Church

Adam Clarke

Dwayne Clymer

Edmund P. Clowney

Harry Conn

W. J. Conybeare

Charles T. Cook

Ed Corley

J. J. Van Costerzee

Miles Coverdale

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William Cowper

Wiliam E. Cox

Gerald Cronk

Henry Craik

Thomas Cranmer

Dan Crawford

Herman Cremer

William R. Crews

Alexander Cruden

William Cininghame

Donald Curby Sr.

G. H. Dalman

Harvey E. Dana

Lennard Darby

Carles Daubuz

Adolf Deissmann

Franz Delitzsch

Doug Dernier

Joe Doores

Norman F. Douty

Charles Duplisey

H. A. Ebrard

David Ebaugh's

Alfred Edershiem

Jonathan Edwards

John Eloit

C. J. Ellicott

E. R. Elliott

William J. Erdman

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Charles R. Erdman

J. A. Ernesti

M. J. Evans

Patrick Fairbairn

A. R. Fausset

Howard Ferrin

Eric Fife

C. G. Findlay

Woodrow Finger

Charles Finney

Charles Fisher

John Foxe

Wayne Frair

August Francke

Henry W. Frost

George H. Fromow

Alexander Fuller

Daniel Fuller

Eugene Garner

Christian Garret

W. Ward Gasque

Oscar de Gebhardt

C. E. George

Don Gifford

John Gill

C. N. Goodwin

Charles Gore

James R. Graham

W. M. Greathouse

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Jack Green

S. G. Green

E. Gresswell

Paul Grubb

H. Grattan Guinnes

Robert H. Gundry

Donald Hagner

Robert Haldane

Henry H. Halley

Floyd Hamilton

R. Laird Harris

Everett Hasper

James Hastings

Roy E. Hayden

C. Headlam

Shel Helsley

William Hendriksen

E. W. Hengstenberg

Carl F. H. Henry

Matthew Henry

Edward Hildebrand

Herschel H. Hobbs

A. A. Hodge

Charles Hodge

Jesse Hodges

J.C. K. von Haufmann

Kim Holt

Edward Horne

Kenneth Horner

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F. J. A. Hort

Frank Haughton

Thomas Houghton

W. F. Howard

J. S. Howson

Henry T. Hudson

Archibald Hughes

Philip Hughes

John Huss

W. H. Isaacs

Frank Jackson

Paul G. Jackson

M. W. Jacobus

Orson Jones

Robert E. Jones

Russell B. Jones

Adoniram Judson

Kenneth Kantzer

Arthur D. Katterjohn

Karl F. Keil

S.H. Kellogg

H. A. A. Kennedy

E. Sidney Kerr

Kenneth Kirkland

T. F. D. Klieforth

John Knox

C. Norman Kraus

D. H. Kromminga

R. B. Kubel

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Abraham Kuyper

George E. Ladd

Donald Lance

J. P. Lange

Hugh Latimer G. V. Lechler

R. C. H. Lenski

Donald Lero

C. S. Lewis

H. G. Liddell

H. P. Liddon

J. B. Lightfoot

John Lillie

David Livingston

E. J. Lohmeyer

C. S. Lovett

William G Lowe

John Luchies

James S. Lucus

Lawrence Lunceford

C. E. Luthardt

Martin Luther

J. Gresham Machen

H. R. Mackintosh

Bruce N. McPherson

Dave McPherson

Norman McPherson

Walter A. Maier

C. D. Maitland

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S. R. Maitland

Dan Mantey

J. C. Maris

Peter Marshall Jr.

H. L. Martensen

Walter R. Martin

Henry Martyn

Cotton Mather

Kenneth Maurer

Philip Mauro

Jack McAlister

Richard McCartney

Robert M-Cheyene

James H. McConkey

Alexander McLaren

Raymond McLaughlin

S. I. McMillen

A. H. McNeile

Robert McNeill

John McNichols

Robert McQuilkin

Joseph Mede

Phillip Melanchton

H. A. W. Meyer

A. Berkley Mickelsen

Jessie Mills

George M. Milner

Robert Moffa

John Warwick

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Don Montgomery

Dale Moody

G. F. Moore

William Moorehead

G. Cambel Morgan

Leon Morris

Robert Morrison

H. C. G. Moule

James Moulton

Ernst Mueller

George Mueller

Andrew Murray

Iain H. Murrray

Eberhard Nestle

Benjamin Newton

Sir Isaac Newton

John Newton

Roger R. Nicole

R. L. Nissley

Dr. Harold J. Ockenga

W. O. E. Oseterley

C. Von Orelli

J. Edwin Orr

John Owen

Franics Paget Ian Paisley

Joseph Parker

Blasise Pascal

John G. Paton

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Leory Patterson

J. Barton Payne

James Payne

A. S. Peake

Duane Pederson

Tom Peters

J. B. Phillips

M. Pinault

E. J. Poole

A. W. Post

Gerald Primm,

Bernard L. Ramm,

Leonard S. Reid,

Robert G. Rayburn

Donald Reckart

Gary Reckart

Jr. Douglas Reddick

Paul Rees

Alexander Reese

W. Harry Rimmer

J. C. H. Rinck

A. T. Robertson

M. F. Roos

Goerge Rose

Marvin Rosenthal

W. J. Rowlands

Larry Joe Ruley

R. J. Rushdoony

J. C. Ryle

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William Sailer

George Salmon

Ed F. Sanders

Dr. Adolph Saphir

John Scanzoni

Francis A. Schaffer

A. Von Schlatter

Herman Schultz

Anderson Scott

Robert Scott

Thomas Scott

J. J. Scruby

Michael Servetus

E. Shackleton

John T. Sharrit

Peter Shebley

T. T. Shields

Teignmouth Shore

Charles Simeon

A. B. Simpson

Emory Simmons

David Smith,

George Smith

Larry Smith

Oswald Smith

Jimmy Smithson

Henry Soltau

A. Souter

Charles H. Spurgeon

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J. M. Stifler,

John R. W. Stott,

A.H. Strong

Moses Stuart

C. T Studd

Ray Summers

J. Grant Swank Jr.

H. B. Swete

Francis Steele

Iain Tait

Richard Taylor

W. Therodore Taylor

Merrill C. Tenny

J. H. Thayer

J. W. Thirtle

William C. Thomas

D. A. Thompson

Arthur Thrush

Bud Tingle

C. Von Tischendorf

J. H. Todd

Alan Toms

A. M. Toplady

Edith Torrey

Samuel P. Tregelles

Robert VanKampen

William Varey

Henry Varley

Geerhardus Vos

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C. T. Walrond

B. B. Warfield

G. Henry Waterman

Issac Watts

A. S. Way

Cary N. Weisiger III

G. Christian Weiss

Charles Wesley

John Wesley

Nathaniel West

Henry G. Weston

R. F. Weymouth

William Whiston

W.S. Whitcombe

Frank H. White

George Whitefield

William Wilberforce

Roger Willaims

Robert Dick Wilson

G. B. Winer

Richard Wolffm

A. Skevington Wood

C. Stacey Woods

Paul Woolley

C. H. H. Wright

James Wright

H. L .Lindsay Young

Robert Young

Ronald Youngblood

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Theodore Zahn

Samuel Zewmer

Ulrich Zwingli

Non PreTrib - David Wilkerson

Re: My Burden., on: 2005/8/12 10:55The Resurrection of the Elect ... "Scripture Must Interpret Scripture".And Scripture never contradicts Scripture... From the O.T. to the New.

The parable of the Harvest, the Net, the reaping Angels and "the Last Day".

Mat 13:37-43 He answered and said to them, He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; Mat 13:38 the field is the world; the good seed are the sons of the kingdom; but the darnel are the sons of the evil one. Mat 13:39 The enemy who sowed them is the Devil; the harvest is the end of the world Mat 13:40 Therefore as the darnel are gathered and burned in the fire, so it shall be in the end of this world Mat 13:41 The Son of Man shall send out Hisangels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who do iniquity, Mat 13:42 and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:43 Then the righteous shall shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 13:47-50 Again, the kingdom of Heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea, and gathered some of every kind; Mat 13:48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the badaway. Mat 13:49 So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just, Mat 13:50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. . ; and the reapers are the angels.

Notice below in Matt.24 & Mark 13 ... again, the "angels" mentioned above are doing the same below, in these Gospel accounts.

Mat 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give herlight, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. {Compare Matthew 24:30 to Rev 1:7 Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the kindreds of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.}

Mark 13:23-27 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you All things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken, and then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory, and then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-27 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken, and then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. { The sun, the moon etc. "Before the Day of the Lord", Joel 2:10 & 31 & 3:15~ Acts 2:20 and Isaiah 13:9-13 ~ Ezekiel 32:7 & 8 ~ Matt 24: 29 ~ Mark 13:24 ~ Luke 21:25 ~ Rev. 6:12}

2Thess. 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto h

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im, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the LAST DAY.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.

Joh 6:54 Whoever partakes of My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY.

{Dan 12:13 (written to Daniel himself) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.}

So Then we must ask ourselves ...

How many times is He coming in Glory, Coming in the Clouds, and Coming with His Angels and as a Thief ?

According to the Scriptures... He's only Coming 'Once' with or as, all of the above, and according to all verses, both O.T.& N.T. pertaining to "That Day" ... that is when we are resurrected. At "The First" Resurrection - Rev.20:4-6

Those of the first Church, the Jews, knew this from the O.T. and knew that Day, as referred to as "The Day of the Lord" or "The Last Day" (as Martha did in Jn.11:24)- A Day of BOTH "Reward and Judgment", simutaneously.

~ Jesus Coming in Â“GloryÂ” ~

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

2Thess. 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Thess. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shalldestroy with the brightness of his coming:

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ

Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True,

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and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

~ Jesus Â“Coming in the CloudsÂ”.


Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of mansitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1Thess. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

~ Jesus Â“Coming with His AngelsÂ“.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. ~Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; ~Matthew 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. ~Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among thejust,


Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him

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also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

~Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


1Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.{verses 3-10 are actually one sentence.}

~ Coming "as a Thief."

Matt 23:43, Luke 12:39, 1 Thess 5:2 & 4, 2 Pet 3:10.{Read All of 2Pet.chpt.3} Rev. 3:3 & 16:15

One Coming, One Resurrection of the Righteous... at His Coming.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

There are only Two resurrections mentioned in the entire Bible.

The resurrection of the All the Righteous ~ "the 'First' Resurrection" - Rev 20:4-6.

And the Second Death is the after the Millenial Reign - Rev.20:10-14. Not three or four resurrections.

Jesus tells us, it is at the "Last Day".

1Th 4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain -> { Strong's - #4035 = Leavearound or Survive} until the Coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. 1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain -> {#4035 = Leave around or Survive} shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to 'meet' the Lord { As He descends/returns and those who had died previous, coming 'with' Him, vs.15 & Jude 1:14} in the 'air'. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. {He'll and we'll be returning to earth, as we meet "in the air" to reclaim the earth and reign with Him.}

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Re: - posted by JaySaved, on: 2005/8/12 11:50If Chrisitans are not raptured before the Tribulation, what are they doing during the Tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 says:"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Wrath used here is "Orge" which means..."anger exhibited in punishment."

It is the same word used in Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to fleefrom the wrath to come?

My question, is the "wrath to come" the Tribulation?

Re: Last Days Doctrine, on: 2005/8/12 11:57Dear Letsgetbusy,

I owe you an apology here.

I just re-read your post and saw you had asked for Scripture only.

I'm sorry I posted that list, but I immediately thought of the many Classic authors, and also of the Earliest of the Early Church Father's writings on this topic.

I have their quotes too, but now that I've re-read your original post, I'm not sure if you want anyone posting the ECFs on this.

I wait your reply on that, this is your thread and I want to respect that you originated it and where you want it to go ... andI will also stay with Scripture only, if I post again.

What had happened to me was, I once sat at my table, back in '85, because of something Keith Greene had just said back then on this issue, and with just my Bible alone, with cross-references in it and my Strong's concordance, I just stayedthere all day, determined to find out, "Why all the controversy ?" and asked the Lord to just "lead me as a little ignorant child", because I was PreTrib and didn't know any other way to believe, but was hearing things from Keith and others at that time and finding Scriptures that made me doubt what I had believed and taught for years prior. But I didn't want 'anybody' to tell me what to believe and wanted only God's Word to speak for itself ... as I now appreciate, you do also. I'm sorry again that I didn't catch that part at my first reading of your post.

I sometimes have to read everything a couple of times.

Anyhow, what I did was, go from Genesis to Rev. and was determined to write down every single reference to "the last days" and all that entails, and I did, and put every single reference in my notebook. (Talk about writers cramp :-o ). All the while praying and sweating bullets, that maybe I had been wrong for all of those years (and taught it too, to others). The fear was awesome, but the end result of that day was Unbelievabley mind boggling.

But anyhow, Now thank God for computers, I have that old list on file.

If or when I'm able (physically) to post again, I'll put them up and try to make it more ship-shape topically.

I'm sorry again and Thanks ahead for pardoning my mistake.

Annie

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Re:, on: 2005/8/12 12:11Wow, what a HUGE LIST, i knew of, about 6 of those people.

Quote:-------------------------If Chrisitans are not raptured before the Tribulation, what are they doing during the Tribulation.-------------------------

I truly don't know that much about the whole 'future' and what it entails. But I believe (no scripture)it's just the same as it is today, but 'more so' (due to 'harsh' times ahead). (Witnessing, Making Disciples, and Holding/Standing Firm on THE Faith thru persecution).

I was reading a Psalm in a devotion. And this helped me and gave me yet 'another' comfort when looking towards the harsh, tough future we are going thru.

Psalm 91:5-10 (NASB)

5 You will not be afraid of the terror by night, Or of the arrow that flies by day; 6 Of the pestilence that stalks in darkness, Or of the destruction that lays waste at noon.

7 A thousand may fall at your side And ten thousand at your right hand, But it shall not approach you.

8 You will only look on with your eyes And see the recompense of the wicked.

9 For you have made the LORD, my refuge, Even the Most High, your dwelling place.

10 No evil will befall you, Nor will any plague come near your tent.

Re:, on: 2005/8/12 12:21JaySaved,I hope you don't mind if I answer this ... It's just that as I posted mine, I saw yours right then.

The wrath you quoted is the general wrath on all the unsaved, as seen in other type verses.

The Tribulation is not "the Wrath" ... The Wrath starts with the Vials Rev 15:1&7 and 16:1.

You asked, what will we be doing during the Trib.Well in Rev. 6 we see the souls of them who had been killed, asking God When He will repay those who killed them, andGod says, when the rest of your brothers are killed as you were. Then in Chpt 7 we see a whole company in Heaven. Those are they who had been killed for Jesus.

Many will be beheaded and killed for the testimony of Jesus, the rest will be "guarded" in the Greek, and used to "do exploits and win many to righteousness (Daniel)" and "survive" then to be caught up at the First Resurrection of Rev. 20:4-6.

The only place that Mid-Trib and Post-Trib folks differ, is in that most overlap the Trumpets with the Vials... which doesn'taffect their diffences enough to make it worth much of a disagreement between them.

I have lots of friends on all sides. And we have very friendly talks and even joke with each other and it has never split us,but I think an honest query into God's Word on this is healthy.

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Someone once asked, If I'm wrong, what do I have to lose, but if you're wrong, what will you have to lose.

I'd rather be ready for anything (like what Chinese Christians have to go through), because even my PreTrib Pastor buddy preaches about the coming persecution in this country.So if it's only used to just get Strong in the Lord and the Power of His Might and cause us to cleave all the more to Him by Faith ... then we've lost nothing, to be ready for Anything.

My personal feeling is that Once the 7th angel sounds his trump ... we are caught up in the air and all the vials are poured out really rapidly.A day of both Reward and Judgment, is all it says from the O.T. to the New.

Jesus said, as "birth pains" it will come ... which start off slow at first then increase in frequency and intensity, the closer to the end we come.

So "unless those days be shortened, no flesh would survive".

There will be those, who have not taken the Mark,but that are not truly Regenerated, that will live on earth during the Millenial reign, obviously, or else, who would be doing all the pro-creating during that time ... won't be us in our Glorified bodies, who rule and reign with Christ for those first 1000 yr.s.

I'm hoping I can get Jay's permission to post what the disciples of the Apostle John wrote.They do a much better job than me.

God Bless ya.

Re: - posted by JaySaved, on: 2005/8/12 12:21Interesting. I am not calling you the devil (lol) but this is the scripture the Devil used to Tempt Jesus.

Psalm 91:10 no harm will come to you; no plague will come near your tent. 11 For He will give His angels orders concerning you, to protect you in all your ways. 12 They will support you with their hands so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

Anyway, forgive me if I am straying away from the subject, but I have always wondered why Jesus would keep Christians in the Tribulation, just to call them in the air to meet him, just to bring them right back down.

I plead ignorance here, I just don't understand.Thank you for letting me ramble a bit.

God Bless

Re: - posted by JaySaved, on: 2005/8/12 12:25The thing that gives me peace, is knowing that Jesus is my Lord! Whether I am around during the tribulation or not, as the old hymn goes "my hope is built on nothingless than Jesus Blood and righteousness!"

Amen

Re:, on: 2005/8/12 13:12

Quote:-------------------------Jaysaved:Interesting. I am not calling you the devil (lol) but this is the scripture the Devil used to Tempt Jesus.

Psalm 91:10 no harm will come to you; no plague will come near your tent. 11 For He will give His angels orders concerning you, to protect you in all your ways. 12 They will support you with their hands so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

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Anyway, forgive me if I am straying away from the subject, but I have always wondered why Jesus would keep Christians in the Tribulation, just to call them in the air to meet him, just to bring them right back down.

I plead ignorance here, I just don't understand.Thank you for letting me ramble a bit.

God Bless-------------------------

Hi JaySaved, If that first part of your post refers to what I said about being "guarded" during that time ... that is God's Word there, that Ireferred to.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keepG5083 thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

"Keep" - #G5083 means "to guard, as a warden, to watch over" and it was the same terminology that John used in his verse "Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

Same exact greek phrasology from the same author of both books. It doesn't mean "get them out and away from ...." ... but in the greek it means to "watch over & guard" ~ A.T. Robertson

2nd you asked, "Why are we being "caught up in the air".. ?

Because that's what He said would happen.

1Th 4:15-17 For we say this to you in the Word of the Lord, that we the living who remain/survive to the coming of the Lord will not at all go before those who have fallen asleep. Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again First. Then we who remain/survive alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to 'meet' with the Lord in the air. And so we will always be 'with' the Lord.

When HE "Descends" He's coming back 'for good', and we will be included in the armies that meet with Him & them(those dead, who get their glorified bodies first) to then take back the earth.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.

I'm sure the Lord would have more than just "ten thousands" of His Saints, if every righteous man since Genesis on to 'That Day', were all coming back down 'with' Him. We're 'the rest' of the army that joins them in the air.

"The meek shall inherit the earth"

In my book, wherever Jesus IS, that's where I want to be, whether I've gotta die to see Him in Heaven or go through till the end, to see Him Return/Descend/Come Again, etc.etc.

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Re: - posted by Eli_Barnabas (), on: 2005/8/12 13:35Good Scriptures you posted there, YeshuaIsMyGod. Let me add something:

First of all, ALL of Matthew chapter 25 is escatalogical. In Matthew 24 he is speaking to His disciples about the end, thenin chapter 25 he carries on by using parables to explain Himself better.

This is the key verse for chapter 25 (taken from the sheep and the goats parable, for this parable explains the prior twomore clearly):

Verse 46 - "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

The point in all the parables are:-Christ returns-Christ separates-The End

I hope this is clear.Blessings,-Eli

Re: - posted by Eli_Barnabas (), on: 2005/8/12 13:43Also, this entire 2nd chapter of Thessalonians is absolutely vital:

2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that theday of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in thetemple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the be

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ginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Re: - posted by letsgetbusy (), on: 2005/8/12 22:58Thanx for the answers. BTW Annie, that's a great list. To be honest, when I first got saved and started teaching Sunday School, it seemed as if the Scriptures clearly stated things about the "son of perdition" coming first, etc. But then I hear all the pre-trib stuff that is so popular. But after a while it seems like a bandwagon.

I like what Kent Hovind said about it. He stated that he was pretty pre-trib in his theology, but what man's idea of tribulation is, and what the Scripture's idea of tribulation is, may be two completely different things. He says things like, 'Oh no. No hot water.'

His video about the latter days is pretty shocking, but kind of makes fun of our American ways. Like how freaked out so many would be if there was suddenly no electricity, etc. If one-third of the stuff is true, the one world government is, and has been, well underway.

Dangers of Evolution Part A: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4546&commentView=itemComments

Dangers of Evolution Part B: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4547&commentView=itemComments

I really like what Hovind said concerning the "New World Order." Someone would say to Kent, 'Did you know there are Russians soldiers being transported into America.' To which he would reply, 'Great. Learn Russian so you can win them tothe LORD.' He pointed out that none of the disciples were concerned with what the Romans were doing in the New Testament.

Re: Wow !, on: 2005/8/13 1:57Hey Letsgetbusy, (hey means hi, down-yonder here :) You've brought out some very powerful points, whether you knew it or not.

In that other thread today, I gave a website that is so informative and looks at or in the 'right places' of the forming of 'things'... yet her Links and maybe even she for that part, are or may be Pre-Trib. BUT, what they and many other very excellent sites that "watch the world and the Signs of the times" are doing is, Exactly what Jesus commanded us to do ... to'Watch' the Signs. Beautiful !

I was trying to say in that other thread today, that "the revealing" spoken of in Daniel 12, was ONLY for those of that onegeneration that Jesus said, "would see the fulfillment of ALL these things", that He had just told them would happen and to watch for.

That's why I have so many Pre-Trib friends, because they are not so silly, as to think we won't, at the least, see Persecution big time, within our lifetime.

And the beauty of it is, and why we never fuss with each other, is because of what was said in Daniel 12. And what Jesus said about "Watch the signs".

No matter "What" a person presently belives, if they are open and humble before God and just obeying as He said, and are Watching ... then all they've read in The Word and read on their last days news sites, etc., will be opened to them (re

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vealed) as these actual events begin to take place.

What Keith Greene had basically said way back was, "be open to either scenario", so that's what made me interrogate God and His Word on this subject ... I wanted Truth and nuttin' but ,,,, and felt, Only God and His Word, can give 100% innerant Truth.

The pre-trib belief only entered the Church back mostly around 1826 and on. Before that, you won't/couldn't find an Author on earth who believed or taught it.

I'm a weirdo for documenting and proving things out to the extreme, so I went around the world, so to speak, to find out where these different beliefs came from ... because as Keith said, I want to "stay open".Open for God to show me, Either Way.

I'd personally would rather "Get Outta Here", ha ... I guess that's why, after that day at my kitchen table with notebook, I fought at first and said "NO GOD, THIS CAN'T BE." (honestly) and I didn't get a computer or internet, until 2002 ... so only my friends looked at the verses and saw it too.

I had no books or anyone to teach me this stuff. I was totally alone with my new found discovery and felt I was the only kook on earth.

It wasn't till about 1999 or 2000, that I found out that a whole bunch of folks were out there believing what I was seeing. I couldn't believe there were such people, cuz I had been so totally alone, for the most part, from '85 until about 2000 with what I believed, because of what I saw the O.T. and N.T. were saying on this issue.

Never read a Post or Mid Trib book until 2000, so all that I believed by myself, for 15 yr.s really exploded on me, when I began to read more Scholarly-Acedemics type books on the topic.

Then the second big explosion in my life, was to get a computer in 2002 and find tons of these post or mid trib folks all over the place .. Ha !

T'ain't fun being alone with something for that long. :-?

I'd have to say, one of the more Scholarly-Acedemically better of those sites is ...http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/index.html#posttrib

He's got the ECF, the "Origins" of the belief, etc. etc.

Like I said, Mid-Trib doesn't bother me, as long as they know that "we are gathered at His Coming" and don't have two comings.

Whether they want to overlap seals, trumpets, and vials, doesn't matter worth the discussion.We'll find out soon enough.

But the main point that I wanted to say, is that the point you brought out, that those Pre-Trib sites that give out "News" reports, etc. to confirm the signs of the times, are sites I frequent regularly. But they give out good daily news.

They're in my favorites, so if I can dig-em out, I'll post them here. I think one was Harpazo, or something like that.

It isn't "old age" that's killed my memory, but a disease ... I'm sorry ... But Thanks for Bearing with me.

His Love to you letsgetbusy !

Annie

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Re:Dragging a post over from another thread., on: 2005/8/15 0:54First, I really enjoyed both YeshuaismyGod and Eli's posts too, Very much ,,, Thank you for them. Very edifying.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yours in bold - mine not.

Annie,

I need to do more work on this topic anyway, but I'd like you to agree or disagree with the meaning of the term 'tribulation'. Jesus tells the disciples, 'in the world, you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world' (John 16:33).

Oh Lord Yes. Ain't that the truth Sister.

This clearly tells me that Jesus Himself, through faith in Him, is going to help me overcome the world (1 John 5:1 - 6). Also, in Ephesians, there is a recurring theme of 'children of disobedience' who are going to face 'the wrath to come'. In these texts (and probably others too) 'tribulation' is attributed to the adversary, and 'wrath' is attributed to 'God'.

Right on Sister. The tribulation is the "wrath of Satan" and the wrath of God is the Vials Rev 15:1&7 and 16:1.

About us "overcoming the world" as you've said here, Yes Mam, that is why it is mentioned so much in Rev. 2 & 3 of the characteristics of "The Overcomers" .... Amen.

Those who God chooses to "survive and remain" till His coming ... yes, He will "guard". Not meaning that it will be a piece of cake, because that word "survive" is pretty self-explanatory. "The Survivors" in Real Time/End Times :-) . Tough Bunch ! And God's MERCY knows what we can take (With Him), and knows which should go which way. He is full of Mercy toward us - Always.

If Christians are still around when wrath is being poured out on children of disobedience, they have nothing to fear from God, only, to be prepared for tribulation from Satan - who has been causing tribulation most especiallysince Jesus came (and believers lined up with Him).

Amen !!!. Sounds like Overcomer talk to me Sister ~ Alleluia.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keepG5083 thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

"Keep" - #G5083 means "to guard, as a warden, to watch over" and it was the same terminology that John used in his verse "Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

Same exact greek phrasology from the same author of both books. It doesn't mean "get them out and away from ...." ... but in the greek it means to "watch over & guard" ~ A.T. Robertson

Can you explain why, then, when the 'great tribulation' is discussed, a cloud of confusion seems to descend and people (believers) talk as if God is going to send the wrath on them, when there is no evidence for this?

Pretty much, just "American Christians" are like this. Or those just living in the "free world".

Also, it might be interesting to notice, that even during the Vials, that they are poured out on or effect "ONLY those who have worshipped the beast, taken His number or worshipped his image." Meaning, there will be those here still on earth, who have not done any of those three things.

I listen to International radio and I hear people, who I know are not "fully" Christian, who say, "Under no circumstances, will they take the mark or worship the beast.", and they're dead serious. But though they're not Christian,Christians, ther

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e will be those here on earth, obviously, who stay in their flesh, and come to Jerusalem, to worship the REAL Christ, besides the 1/3 of Israel, that are Chosen for Salvation "at" His appearing.

They are the ones who are not given a Resurrected Body, but will be alive to live through the Millenial reign.

What is difficult or wrong or confusing about this simple separation between the two main reasons for distress which may be faced on earth by unbelievers and believers?

Sad question, literally. Makes my heart sink, literally also.

What's made it difficult, is that it WASN'T DIFFICULT prior to about 1826, as was said earlier on in this thread. No one taught pre-trib before that period. But since that "OUT" has been grabbed at, by the majority, "That's" what's made it "difficult" for folks to face.

With Darby and Scoffield, etc., shelling out that doctrine and spreading it to America,,, well, folks just grabbed for it and so that by 1909, No other teaching was allowed at The Prophecy Conferences. Very sad.

Re:, on: 2005/8/15 3:28I think something AMAZING that God gave me was the Seven Bowls and the Seven Trumpets are EXACTUALLY THE SAME. They are the SAME events, just described differently. 1 and 2 don't look alike (last time i remember) but 3-7 sound almost word for word the same.

I'll leave you all with that... G-d bless

Re: From dragging post from another thread., on: 2005/8/15 4:52Have you ever been ready to hit the hay for the day, and suddenly a bunch of Scripture comes rushing into your head,and with an urgency ?

It was asked above in that thread/post ... Quote:-------------------------What is difficult or wrong or confusing about this simple separation between the two main reasons for distress which may be faced on earth by unbelievers and believers? -------------------------

Well, that question stuck in my head/heart/spirit or whatever, like a knife, and I couldn't shake it ... then suddenly the Scriptures starting coming to mind and I shook at the thought of it (not in fear - but at the thought, that brother would betray brother or 'friend', etc.)

These were the verses that came ....

Quote:-------------------------Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And 'then shall many be offended', and 'shall betray one another', and shall hate one another. Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues/churches (G4864),and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

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Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.-------------------------

These are why people are afraid.

It's one thing to think, "of course the 'world' will hate us and turn on us", but when Jesus says that it will be some of the "Church" that "turn you in", that is too heart crushing to even come near the mere thought of that happening. It's beyond the mind's ability to comprehend or grasp.

As Paul and Peter said, as long as you obey the laws of a land, are not violent, and in your own life, are a pacifist .... then God will Bless you with the parts above I did not put in Bold font. If you are persecuted "just" for your beliefs and NOT because you are violent, then that is dead wrong on their part for doing so.

We need the faith of Paul and the other's to get through the horror of what is coming upon this world. Almost every single O.T. prophet was killed and the same for the Apostles and Lord only knows, how many from the First Church on, right up until today, in other countries right now.

I will die for Christ and His Truth ... hear that right now.And do not feel as some crazy "patriots, etc." out there, that I should have or use a gun or anything like that, to stop what's coming. It's NOT Scriptural to be a "zealot"... like Barrabus or try to "take over the country". Hog-wash !

Jesus went to the slaughter as a Lamb, and so should we, if it ever comes to that.

What's coming has been foretold by our Loving Savior and King, and you folks decide "who" you will follow. Christ or a man !

Compromise on that decision, for Temporary 'safety' and wind up losing Eternal Life.

Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Every ministry under the sun, except for those that we've all talked about, the feel good ones, are saying we will see persecution and judgment ... even in last month's Billy Graham Decision magazine, he wrote about the coming judgment, and he's an easy going sorta guy.

And Richard Wurmbrand, who this site carries, warned of the coming persecution to the American Church !

That's why I liked that devotional by Oswald Chambers, that I posted one day. I'll have to look up what date that was, about "Jesus, commited Himself to no man, because He knew what was in the heart of man". Amen to that !

It was one of the best writings about that Scripture verse I've read.

If brother betrays brother, JUST to protect themselves, or just because they just don't agree with someone else's "thoughts only", then woe unto them ... that "is" eternal damnation for them.

I'm sorry for sounding so harsh, but God has laid this on my heart, just as strong as my Love for my own flesh and blood.

The absolute need, for the "Fervent Love" for the Body, is what will make us decide, what we will be willing to do, no mat

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ter what happens. Look at Corrie ten Boom's testimony, from beginning to end, to understand what I'm trying to say with this post.

Put His Body First, above yourself, in all things, because it IS HIS BODY, and all your future decisions should be brought to GOD, with 'that fervent Love' always in heart & mind.

Jesus said, My Kingdom is NOT of this world.

Pray hard for the Body of Christ, through-out the world. And Love Them.That will determine your Eternal destination.Be a Daniel.

Bless those with a heart for Him and Him only.

Annie

Re:, on: 2005/8/15 11:23Hi Annie,

I see you've been busy answering my questions. Thanks. And WOW what a last post you've made!

This whole thing about being betrayed by one's own household has been nagging at me, ever since I realised it was thechief priests who led the elders and the Pharisees in the cry of 'Crucify'. This is also why John was there at the crosswith Mary....

John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith untothem, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.

Later, I realised that of course (no pun intended ;-) ) because Mary's cousin Elisabeth was married to a priest, not only John the Baptist but John the disciple (who was related to the High Priest's family) were related to Jesus. So He was betrayed by His own. Judas was just a very important pawn who finally made a bad choice, but, which was completely in keeping with scripture. (Was he Simon the Pharisee's son?)

Completely off topic, this means that after Judas died and the eleven were with Jesus when He gave the great commission, there were TWELVE APOSTLES - the Great Apostle - the Chief Cornerstone - there, those who had been together from the start. New Jerusalem foundation? 8-)

I said it was off topic. Just wanted to share the thought. :-o

Re:, on: 2005/8/15 13:43Ha ~ God has sure given you a brain, huh ?

Thank God, and that you are using it for Him.

I found that Oswald Chambers Devotional that I mentioned above and I love how He did it, without making people "cynical" or 'suspicious', yet nailed Christ's meaning to a tee.

Oh, and I added a devotional on Adversity that's good. On that site, they give other Topicals, on the left side, that are of the same topic that you're on.

God Bless ... TTYL.

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July 30 The Teaching of Disillusionment

Jesus did not commit Himself to them . . . , for He knew what was in man Â—John 2:24-25

Disillusionment means having no more misconceptions, false impressions, and false judgments in life; it means being free from these deceptions. However, though no longer deceived, our experience of disillusionment may actually leave us cynical and overly critical in our judgment of others. But the disillusionment that comes from God brings us to the point where we see people as they really are, yet without any cynicism or any stinging and bitter criticism. Many of the things in life that inflict the greatest injury, grief, or pain, stem from the fact that we suffer from illusions. We are not true to one another as facts, seeing each other as we really are; we are only true to our misconceived ideas of one another. According to our thinking, everything is either delightful and good, or it is evil, malicious, and cowardly.

Refusing to be disillusioned is the cause of much of the suffering of human life. And this is how that suffering happensÂ— if we love someone, but do not love God, we demand total perfection and righteousness from that person, and when we do not get it we become cruel and vindictive; yet we are demanding of a human being something which he or she cannot possibly give. There is only one Being who can completely satisfy to the absolute depth of the hurting human heart,and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord is so obviously uncompromising with regard to every human relationship because He knows that every relationship that is not based on faithfulness to Himself will end in disaster. Our Lord trusted no one, and never placed His faith in people, yet He was never suspicious or bitter. Our LordÂ’s confidence in God, and in what GodÂ’s grace could do for anyone, was so perfect that He never despaired, never giving up hope for any person.If our trust is placed in human beings, we will end up despairing of everyone. http://www.rbc.org/utmost/index.php?month=07&day=30

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August 2 The Teaching of Adversity

In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world Â—John 16:33

The typical view of the Christian life is that it means being delivered from all adversity. But it actually means being delivered in adversity, which is something very different. "He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide underthe shadow of the Almighty. No evil shall befall you, nor shall any plague come near your dwelling . . ." ( Psalm 91:1,10 )Â— the place where you are at one with God.

If you are a child of God, you will certainly encounter adversities, but Jesus says you should not be surprised when they come. "In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." He is saying, "There is nothing for you to fear." The same people who refused to talk about their adversities before they were saved often complain and worry after being born again because they have the wrong idea of what it means to live the life of a saint.

God does not give us overcoming lifeÂ— He gives us life as we overcome. The strain of life is what builds our strength. If there is no strain, there will be no strength. Are you asking God to give you life, liberty, and joy? He cannot, unless you are willing to accept the strain. And once you face the strain, you will immediately get the strength. Overcome your own timidity and take the first step. Then God will give you nourishmentÂ— "To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life . . ." ( Revelation 2:7 ). If you completely give of yourself physically, you become exhausted. But when you give of yourself spiritually, you get more strength. God never gives us strength for tomorrow, or for the next hour, but only for the strain of the moment. Our temptation is to face adversities from the standpoint of our own common sense. But a saint can "be of good cheer" even when seemingly defeated by adversities, because victory is absurdly impossible to everyone, except God. http://www.rbc.org/utmost/index.php?month=08&day=02

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Re: The Last Days - O Chambers comment, on: 2005/8/15 15:08Annie,

Had recently read the one about disillusionment and was greatly comforted by it and felt vindicated in practice. It'simpossible to quote just one or two sentences....

Quote:-------------------------The same people who refused to talk about their adversities before they were saved often complain and worry after being born again because they have the wrong idea of what it means to live the life of a saint. -------------------------How did he know? So true of my own experience, I'm gobsmacked! :-?Quote:-------------------------If you completely give of yourself physically, you become exhausted. But when you give of yourself spiritually, you get more strength. God never gives us strength for tomorrow, or for the next hour, but only for the strain of the moment. -------------------------This principle of strengthening as the strain grows is exactly what happens in other fields of human endeavour. I think of women with heart conditions; in pregnancy, if going to be ok, there is a certain stage quite far on, when the heart will either cope, or not. We come to many 'points' when we have the choice of whether we will draw on the Lord's strength, or, capitulate. May He find us ever trusting Him for strength as we need it.

Re:, on: 2005/8/15 15:43Hia dorcas,

Ya sure have some good gobsmacking times with Him, don't ya ? Praise the Lord !!! :-D

Again, I just thought of Stephen. He was only chosen to take care of the widows and "serve tables", even though, Just for that job, the person had to be "full of the Holy Ghost and Wisdom" (imagine that.), while the others would give themselves to "prayer & ministry", but then, almost 2 whole chapters are dedicated to Stephen ... and it's such a testimony, of how any of us, can trust God to be there for us, when persecution comes.

I've gotta put some of those chpt.s down.

There's so much to see and glean from these.

Act 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples were multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. Act 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. Act 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. Act 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. Act 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the HolyGhost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: Act 6:6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them. Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith. Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. Act 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen. Act 6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake. Act 6:11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God. Act 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council, Act 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against thi

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s holy place, and the law: Act 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us. Act 6:15 And all that sat in the council, looking steadfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel. {'The Glory' God promised 1Pe 4:14 - upon those going through persecution}

Then he preaches to them for the whole of chpt. 7 and ...

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, {Jesus STOOD UP just for Stephen - Wow !}Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. {Loving & Forgiving our persecutors - Phew !}

Act 8:2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

Mists up the ol' eyeballs, huh ?

God BLESS ya Dorcas.

Re: Last Days Doctrine, on: 2005/8/23 17:12

Quote:-------------------------I am not unfamiliar with Daniel and we have been in Joel's 'last days' since the day of Pentecost. To create an eschatological timetable from Daniel and then to build in an expectation of a different kind of Christianity for the 'very' last days has been discussed in these threads from time to time. It is an abberation of orthodox hermeneutics and is to be resisted. If there are specific references in Daniel to such things which I have missed I would ask you to point them out for us all.-------------------------Emphasis mine.

"an abberation of orthodox hermeneutics and is to be resisted" ..... Says Who ???

Not The Word of God and That's for sure.

If one thinks we've been in the "Last Days" since Pentecost and also believes that those who go through The Tribulation as Saints/Elect, are no different or will be no different, then they've been all these miserable days, since Christ rose ... then this surely needs addressing.Now would be the time, I would say. Because that would explain a lot of things around here, of why there is no desperate searching out on certain issues.

I'm going to start with just the term "The Last Days".Hope you can follow, because I don't have time to simplify it anymore. Some of it you will have to Search Out yourself.

"The Last Days"

What, Which, When.

Acts 2:16 ~ "But this is ....."

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Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.Act 2:16 But235 "this"5124 is2076 that which was spoken2046 by1223 the3588 prophet4396 Joel2493

****In verse 16, Peter is saying that 'this', the "manifestation" that you are seeing, is not Drunkeness, but "this" {"this" being a "Demonstrative Pronoun" meaning, 'this' particular "manifestation" that the crowd was seeing.} is spoken by the Prophet Joel.

Then he goes on to tell, what they are seeing presently, at that moment and backs it up with their own Scriptures, so they'd understand what they were seeing ... the "this" Peter was referring to in verse 15 & 16... the explanation of the visible/audible "manifestation" of Pentecost .......

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

****The nest two verses are Future Tense ........

Act 2:19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:{ Mal_4:1-6}Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lordcome:

{ Joel 2:10 & 31 & 3:15~ here in Acts and Isaiah 13:9-13 ~ Ezekiel 32:7 & 8 ~ Matt 24: 29 ~ Mark 13:24 ~ Luke 21:25 ~ Rev. 6:12}

(Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken) ETC.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in thetop of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

1Jo 2:18 Little children,3813 it is2076 the last2078 time{HOUR}5610 and2532 as2531 ye have heard191 that3754 antichrist500 shall come,2064 even2532 now3568 are1096 there many4183 antichrists;500 whereby3606 we know1097 that3754 it is2076 the last2078 time{HOUR}.5610 ****Check out what all your commentaries in e-sword or whatever you have, says about this verse. It would take up a whole page here.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you****Peter here speaking of the age of grace and the last days for the Temple and it's sacrifices for sin. The days of the N

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ew Covenant. Hebrews speaks to this in 1:2, 8:8,10 & 10:16Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also hemade the worldsBut Peter in his 2nd Epistle speaks that .... 2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days ..... And thewhole of that chapter is future tense.

The O.T. Jews, knew what the Last Days meant .... it was when all heck would break out and then Messiah would cometo deliver them, physically .... that is why some were dissappointed with Jesus' First appearance. They thought He'd deliver from the Roman occupation.

If you cross-reference Matt. 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 with the O.T., you'll see plainly that these Jews knew what "those days" would be like and what things would help them to see that they were "in" those last days. Just type in "those days" in your Bible search program. Look especially at Jeremiah's list.

Do a Search on what the earliest of the Early Church Father's had to say about the days ahead and what type of "Christians" we will need to be in order to be Overcomers. Those who sat 'under John' the Apostle.

The only two verses in the entire Bible, that may use the terms, "last days" or "Last times" for ..... "since Jesus had come" are, Heb 1:2 and 1Pe 1:20 ...... but these are not used in the eschatological sense of 'THE Last Days' ( or "those days"), that the rest of Prophecy speaks of, future tense (though not future tense necessarily for us anymore.) - in both the Old and New Testaments.

It would also be a good idea to do a full Commentary search on Heb.1:2 and 1Peter 1:20, to understand how the words "time past and last times" are used in reference to the dispensation of Grace and not eschatologically.

There is an eschatological "time-table", that started Ticking, when Israel became a nation.From that point on, Jesus warns us to "watch" the signs.The "signs" are all through the O.T. Prophets and the N.T..

If we are not 'watching', we will not receive the needed 'revealing' that God had promised to those who stayed "awake".

Jesus said, the last days would be the worse the world has ever seen or ever will see. How could your average Christian get through this horror that is about to come upon the earth ???

To say that the Last Days Overcomers, are "no different" than your average Christian, is the "abberation of orthodox hermeneutics and is to be resisted."

And though I'd much rather forget this issue and move unto more pleasant issues, for the sake of The Church, whoeverthey are, I can't.

This issue of what it will take to be one of the "Overcomers" of Revelation, NEEDS to be address and none too soon.

amen.

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Re: Last Days Doctrine, on: 2005/8/24 3:22Part 2 ~

What must the End Time/Last Days Saints/Elect 'endure' in order to "Overcome". {Partial List Only}

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mat :{starting at vs 4} 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations formy name's sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as Godsitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Mark {starting at vs. 5} 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those daysMar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. !

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let (him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains

Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Mar 13:24 But in those days, 'AFTER that tribulation', the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Mark {starting from vs 5} 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

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Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Luk {starting with vs 8} 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape< {flee on one's own} all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. Amo 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, andby flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be helped with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was{Mark 13:19} since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever. Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and swore by him that liveth forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a

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half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

{Verse 6:11 fulfilled in 7:14}

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

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Re: Last Days Doctrine, on: 2005/8/25 12:54Corrie Ten Boom - on going through the coming Tribulation.

CORRIE TEN BOOM COMMENTS ON THE VIEWS WHICH ARE POPULAR TODAY. SHE EXHORTS US TO PREPARE OURSELVES SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST AND IN THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR THE COMING TRIALS OF OUR FAITH. SHE TELLS OF THE CHINESE CHURCH BEING UNWARNED AND ILL-PREPARED FOR THE PERSECUTIONS THAT BEGAN IN 1949 UNDER MAO TSE TUNG'S RED GUARDS. (Mat.24:4-5) TODAY'S POPULAR PROPHECY TEACHERS ARE SIMILARLY FAILING TO PREPARE COMFORTABLE WESTERN CHRISTIANS TO TAKE UP THEIR CROSS AND TO WITNESS AS OVERCOMERS IN THE COMING TRIBULATION.

Miss Corrie Ten Boom was a Dutch survivor of the Nazi Concentration Camps, and a lifelong missionary. Corrie was a believer in facing tribulation. She was one of the many people who were persecuted in concentration camps during the World War II. Her family was murdered before her eyes, but though her life was threatened, God led her through that terrible time. She lived to testify all over the world of how God brought her out of that time of trouble. In the worst days in the concentration camp she and her sister Betsy discovered that "there is no pit so deep that the Presence of God is not there with us". In an interview titled "Prepared for the Coming Tribulation", Miss Corrie Ten Boom held very definite view concerning this. In the following message she shared a plea for the saints to prepare themselves for the possibility that at some point their faith may be tested. It serves today as a timely warning to us in the comfortable and complacent western church as we approach the threshold of the endtime drama.

Here is her exhortation to us from a letter she wrote in 1974................

"The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are Â‘overcomers.Â’ Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things can change for others.

My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of lovingJews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room. We may have been the Lord's only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." We too, are to be overcomers Â– bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting "Hallelujah! Hallelujah!" for I have found where it is written that Jesus said, "He that overcometh shall inherit all things: and I will be His God, and he shall be My son." This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive Â– but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick. "Yes, the Lord will heal me,", Betsy said with confidence. She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day. It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy's death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus. There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution. In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated Â– raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly, "We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,how to stand when the tribulation comes,

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Â– to stand and not faint."I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it. We are next. Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation." Then I write it down and learn it by heart. (EditorÂ’s note: Wonderful idea.)

When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, "Nothing could be any worse than today." But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time, a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.

Â“If you be reproached (suffer) for the name of Christ, happy-blessed are you; for the Spirit of glory and of God (the same Glory and Spirit of God that rested over The Tabernacle in the O.T.) will rest upon you. On their part He is evil spokenof, but on your part He is Glorified.Â” 1 Peter 4 : 14I found myself saying, "Hallelujah! - Because I am suffering, Jesus is Glorified!"

In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation" (IÂ‘ll fly away, etc.), but in China and Africa etc., tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was theresome of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered. The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, "Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? WillI be the next one?" The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood. "When I was a little girl, " I said, "I went to my father and said,"Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a marty for Jesus Christ." "Tell me," said Father,"When you take a train trip to Amsterdam,when do I give you the money for the ticket?Three weeks before?" "No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train." "That is right," my father said, "and so it is with God's strength. Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ. He will supply all you need Â– just in timeÂ…" My African friends were nodding and smiling. Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people begansinging, Â“In the sweet, by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore.Â”

Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed. I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago. But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life. Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

How can we get ready for the persecution?

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~ First we need to feed on the word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

~ Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History, but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive and sitting at the right hand of God.

~ We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

~ In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other. But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting. The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian's life.

Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too an a little bit afraid when I think that after all my years, including the horrible nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also. But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No,you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down.

"Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him", for I know that to all who overcome, He shall give the crown of life. Hallelujah!Â” -Corrie Ten Boom-1974

Re: End Times Stuff., on: 2005/8/30 8:34Corrie Ten Boom spoke well and I know others who speak much better than me.

Another great one,

Matthew 24 by R. C. Ryle

Also good to read by Ryle, 'Matt. 25' and 'Occupy Till I Come'.

Re: - posted by JaySaved, on: 2006/1/10 9:57I recently posted about 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. I did that because I was in a situation like Grannie Annie spoke of...I just want to know the truth. I have believed in a Pre-Trib rapture my entire life..until last week.

I feel that God has opened my eyes to the truth of a Post Trib rapture/second coming.

For me, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3was what did it for me.

1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

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Jesus will not return and we will not be gathered together to him until the apostasy and the antichrist is revealed.

Re: - posted by ccchhhrrriiisss (), on: 2006/1/10 12:07Hi JaySaved...!

To date, I am uncertain as to the "rapture" -- especially whether it will be a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. Someministers, like David Wilkerson and Chuck Smith, hold to the traditional pre-trib notion of a "catching away" before the "wrath of God" is poured upon the Earth. Look at the Times Square Church homepage and click on the Statements of Faith, including other articles on their website concerning the issue), as well as a study written by Calvary Chapel founder Chuck Smith:

http://www.timessquarechurch.org/about/statementoffaith.htm

http://www3.calvarychapel.com/hope/library/smith-chuck/books/ccd/08_rapture.htm

I do not at all believe in the idea that the Rapture is meant to save Christians from persecution. Persecution is not the "wrath of God." Rather, it is the wrath of man (or men influenced by the kingdom of darkness). However, there are someverses that seem to indicate that God will "keep us" from the "hour of trial" that will come upon the entire earth. Whetheror not that this indicates that God will take us out -- or protect us while here -- is a matter of debate or opinion.

Currently, I lean toward a belief in a "rapture" and a belief that it will take place "pre-trib." While the "man of perdition" might certainly be revealed before such a "rapture" takes place, his true identity will still be a mystery, at least to the world, since "if it were possible, he would deceive the very elect."

But I like what Keith Green said once, "Pray for a Rapture -- but prepare for the Tribulation." You can't go wrong if you are ready for both!

:-)

Re:, on: 2006/1/10 15:11Hi JaySaved and Ccchhhrrriiisss :-) ,

I liked what you noticed Jay, in your own thread on Thess.., where you mentioned that you are noticing a lot of "that day"mentioned.

You couldn't be more right... from O.T. to New.

Nothing matters at all, but what God's Word says.

Times Square's SOF has the "cover all beliefs" sentence, that many have adopted. Mostly those who are 'not' pretrib, have this one in their SOF.

Quote:-------------------------#11 In the resurrection and final judgment of both the saved and the lost, the one to everlasting life and the other to everlasting damnation.-------------------------

But though it "seems" to cover all, it is actually NOT a pre-trib statement, because it has "the just and the unjust" 'receiving' at the "same time" .... just as the Bible says. {Matt 13,etc. etc. etc.)

David Wilkerson, himself, has not been pre-trib for many years. But as his representative in Texas told me ... he doesn't "go there", so as not to cause what usually happens when this debate begins.

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If it could just stay Scriptural and Historic (as in the ECFs, etc), then it would be an honest and fair discussion ... the "I think(s)" always lead to nothing,,, and mostly in God's eyes. He only cares what "Is Written".

As Tim Lahaye said, "You CAN'T prove pre-trib with Scripture". :-(

It is important 'what' we believe.

God would never leave us confused.

He wrote His Word for a child to understand.

Jay, I'd like to contribute to either this thread or yours on Thess... I feel, the time is short to share such things.

With His Love.

Re: - posted by ccchhhrrriiisss (), on: 2006/1/10 16:47Hi MeAgain...!

That is very interesting information about David Wilkerson. His Church's website (Times Square Church) indicates thatthe Church believes in the "Rapture" (see Article #4 of the SOF: "We Believe...In the blessed hope, the rapture of the Church at ChristÂ’s coming."). Since there are several articles still contained in the TSC Pulpit Series concerning references to a "pre-tribulation 'Rapture,'" I just assumed that Brother Wilkerson still held such a belief.

I have not read any of this latest books, particulary America's Last Call. Does anyone know whether or not he covers the issue of the "Rapture" in it? Has anyone heard any of his more recent messages on the subject? It would be quite interesting to confirm where Brother Wilkerson stands on this issue.

Thanks!

:-)

Re:, on: 2006/1/10 17:19Hia Chris,

Notice the words "at His COMING" ?

Biblically (again), there is only ONE "Coming".

{Smile}

You having been down in Texas and all, I could talk like an old cowboy movie and say ... "You calling me a liar there cowboy ?" :-P

I know for a fact he hasn't been pre-trib. Unless he's switched again.I called his Representative lady down yonder there in Lyndale, Tx. and spoke with her a good while about it years ago, because my husband was a Pastor too. She said, at that time, that David will not open that can of worms, for obvious reasons.

If he says that we are "raptured" (another word for the more Biblical word, "resurrected", AT Christ's COMING .... well, that is exactly what the Bible says and what all the posted Scriptures are saying on these 2 threads ... "Last Days Doctrine" and "2Thess2:3".When we See HIM, it will only matter what HIS Word says.

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On another subject .... THANKS FRIEND FOR YOUR PRAYERS OVER THESE MONTHS ~ GOD IS GOOD ~ AND HE'S A GREAT GOD WHO HEALS HURTS, OF 'ANY' KIND.

:-) Love to you Bro.

Re:, on: 2006/1/10 17:46How Many Times is Jesus 'Coming', 1-With His Angels2-With The Glory3-With The Clouds4-As a Thief ?

~ Jesus Â“Coming with His AngelsÂ“.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.~Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; ~Matthew 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but castthe bad away. ~Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon thethrone of his glory:

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.~Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


1Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with thetrump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. ~ Jesus Coming in Â“GloryÂ”.


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Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon thethrone of his glory:




2Thess. 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Thess. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

~ Jesus Â“Coming in the CloudsÂ”.


Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.



1Thess. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

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~Jesus "Coming as a Thief".

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

(Important Chapter) 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. There are countless verses that mention His "Coming".

I'll post them all soon and it will show where we get the belief that we are "Gathered AT His Coming"... and that there's only One Coming, called His Second Coming.

In His Love.

Re: - posted by jimp, on: 2006/1/10 17:59hi, there is only one really important,eternally imortant coming and that is that he comes into your life today and abides in you so that you escape the eternal tribulation. today is the day of salvation, take NO thought of tomorrow.jimp

Re: Take "thought" on this also ..., on: 2006/1/10 20:44God's Word speaks more of the Second Coming, than any other "doctrine", if you combine the Old and New TestamentScriptures regarding That Great Day of the Lord and what follows.

These are just a Small "portion" more of them.

Please know that there are many more, so He MUST want us to know and 'think' about It.

If this doctrine, was/is "this" important to God, it should be to us also.*******************************************

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; buthe will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. - Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like arefiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

- Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly,shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neitherroot nor branch.

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

~ Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye

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together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

~ Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are theangels. Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things thatoffend, and them which do iniquity; Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, lethim hear. ~ Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of everykind: ~ Matthew 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels,but cast the bad away. ~ Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked fromamong the just, ~ Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. CR Matthew 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. .................................................The above verses gives us a description of His Second coming - what is to take place at that time, on That Day. ~ Below will be more of the same.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Matthew 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon thethrone of his glory: Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

/93


Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Mark 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? Mark 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death. Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.


Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Luke 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Luke 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. Luke 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, theybuilded; Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

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Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, thereye may be also.


Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; {2:28-32} Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: Acts 2:19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lordcome: { Joel 2:10 & 31 & 3:15~ Acts 2:20 ~ Isaiah 13:9-13 ~ Ezekiel 32:7 & 8 ~ Matt 24: 29 ~ Mark 13:24 ~ Luke 21:25 ~ Rev. 6:12}Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom hehath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

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Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead,both of the just and unjust.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; Rom 2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the lawshall be judged by the law; Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

1Corinthians. 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1Cor. 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor. 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Cor. 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 1Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1Cor. 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 1Cor. 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 1Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1Cor. 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall beraised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Cor. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 2Corinthians 1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; 2Cor. 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph. 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph. 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

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Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Phil. 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ;

Phil. 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.

Phil. 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? 1Thess. 3:13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with thetrump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Thess. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Â“RemainÂ” from vs.s 15 & 17 = StrongÂ’s, - G4035 περιλείπω per-ee-li'-poFrom G4012 and G3007; to leave all around, that is, (passively) survive: - remain.

1Thess. 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Thess. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Thess. 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Thess. 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Thess. 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. {verses 3-10 are actually one sentence.}

2Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him, 2Thess. 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Thess. 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2Thess. 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Thess. 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Thess. 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

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2Thess. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Thess. 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Thess. 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Thess. 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1Timothy 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 1Tim. 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ

2Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. ~2Tim 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

2Tim 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2Tim 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2Tim 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

2Tim 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 2Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 2Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give meat that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.~Heb. 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end

Heb. 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb. 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the preciousfruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. James 5:8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

1Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire,

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might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ1Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ

1Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

1Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

2Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. 2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according tothe wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; {concerning this same subject of the last days }2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest {#4761-pervert}, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.******************

1John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.*******************

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. {Matthew 24:30}

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Include the Whole of the book of The Revelation, and major parts of the major and minor Prophets, Plus.

~ Marantha ~

Re: - posted by JaySaved, on: 2006/1/12 10:46

Quote:-------------------------hi, there is only one really important,eternally imortant coming and that is that he comes into your life today and abides in you so that you escape the eternal tribulation. today is the day of salvation, take NO thought of tomorrow.jimp -------------------------

I agree that we should not worry about tomorrow, but Jesus numerous times told us to Watch for his coming so that we would not be caught by surprise like a "thief in the night".

Re:, on: 2006/1/12 11:48Please delete this post (i didn't want to post)

Re: - posted by philologos (), on: 2006/1/13 9:55oops, sorry mispost.

Re:Hi Ron., on: 2006/1/14 0:49My heart skipped a beat when I saw you had posted here. Ha.

Thank God for retraction orders or whatever happened with you and my dear brother who almost posted above you.

I physically don't have the strength to post anymore, but I just wanted to say .... GOOD JOB ON 'THE GODHEAD' THREAD.

I was SO glad to see "Him" get predominance on Scriptures & Doctrine. Praise God - He's "sticky-ed" now. Glory !!!

Could ya just do this sick old bird one last favor Ron ? Could ya Capitalize the "G" in the title ? That would really be the cherry on top.Kudos.

Thanks again and all His Very Best to you and all here.

I'm on a Forum now for disabled folks and I can only do one Forum with my limits ... so I feel that's where the Lord wantsme.

Meet y'all One Day anyways and can't wait.

Much unending love for ya's all, with my thanks and prayers.

Me Again

/93


Re: - posted by CJaKfOrEsT (), on: 2006/1/14 1:55

Quote:-------------------------JaySaved wrote:If Chrisitans are not raptured before the Tribulation, what are they doing during the Tribulation.

-------------------------

Sorry for being a bit late. I think sometimes the simplest answers are the best. I'd say the Christians will be sufferinging.

"Yea and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." - 2 Tim 3:13

*Edit* - Why should things change now? *edit*

Re: - posted by Christinyou (), on: 2006/1/14 2:30Quote:

"God cannot get through to this age because of lack of power in the Church. So lack of revival is our fault. - Ravinhill"

God is not in the business of using the Church to do His work. He has all the power He needs to bring the Church intoline with His will. He is the One that has chosen to not allow individual Christians to know the truth of Christ in us theHope of Glory. Some are coming to this truth and the true Body of Christ is beginning to come forth. Not by the powerof the Church, but by the power of God the Father, who will complete the Good Work He has begun in His Children. Like Paul our greatest need is to know Christ and Him Crucified. Israel and the Church leaders can only lead us to oneconclusion, we cannot do it. God wants to give the believer the Power we already have. We just don't know how toallow it to come forth. That Power is the Son of God Born Again in a man that the Life of Christ may be his Life. We cando all things in Christ, but it has to be fully and without doubt Christ Himself that is in us that is doing the work throughus. Again like Paul we can only be Christ Person's by the Christ that is in us. Philippians 3:8-11 Yea doubtless, and Icount all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the lossof all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine ownrighteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God byfaith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being madeconformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

This is the key to all that God has for His Children, Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Not "the" Church but the Body of Christ His Church, and He has said the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it. PraiseGod and Amen.Revival is in each one of us and that revival is Christ and only Christ. Man can never do it but Christ did and can andwill. Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy waysacknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that istrue, and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

In Christ: Phillip

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Bro. Wilkerson and Times Square Church... - posted by ccchhhrrriiisss (), on: 2006/1/17 13:04Hi MeAgain...!

Quote:-------------------------I know for a fact he hasn't been pre-trib. Unless he's switched again.I called his Representative lady down yonder there in Lyndale, Tx. and spoke with her a good while about it years ago, because my husband was a Pastor too. She said, at that time, that David will not open that can of worms, for obvious reasons.-------------------------I was very inquisitive to learn about David Wilkerson's current position on the "rapture." So I wrote an email to Times Square Church asking if Brother David still believes in a pre-tribulation "rapture." The Assistant Pastor, Neil Rhodes, wrote me this morning:Quote:-------------------------Dear Chris,

Thank you for writing to Bro. Dave.Bro. Dave has never stated otherwise concerning the Pre-Trib rapture. He has often said his calling is to preach in such a manner as to keep people ready for the rapture. Times Square Church holds to the statement of faith of the AG.Trust this sets you at peace.

God bless,Pastor Neil Rhodes

-------------------------Of course, whether or not David Wilkerson believes in a pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib "rapture" has nothing to do with whether or not such an event will occur. There are alot of godly men and women that happen to disagree on this topic, as well as other issues that are not necessarily the "fundamentals of the faith." However, I hope this clears up his particular position on the subject just a little. The Assembly of God position holds firmly to a pre-tribulation "rapture" of the Church. According to the AG website, these are "non-negotiable tenets of faith that all Assemblies of God churches adhere to."

http://www.ag.org/top/beliefs/index.cfm

http://ag.org/top/beliefs/truths_condensed.cfm

I do not currently attend an AG church. However, the small church that I attend also holds the same Statement of Fundamental Truths of the Assemblies of God. Most of the teaching material that this particular church uses come from either the Assemblies of God or Calvary Chapel (both of which are pre-trib). However, this local church allows us room to "make up our own minds" on issues that are not detrimental to the faith. We all may not agree on everything, but we can all agree on the basic and most important issues of the faith.

:-)

By the way, you are still in my prayers. Please continue to pray for me as well.

Re: Bro. Wilkerson and Times Square Church... - posted by PreachParsly (), on: 2006/1/17 13:48Thanks ccchhhrrriiisss for the info on TSC and Wilkerson. I often wondered what his stance was.

Re:, on: 2006/1/18 7:39Chris, Once again I will state before God, that I spoke to a lady rep. at the Texas office years ago and she told me what Isaid on this previous page.

I won't repeat my history of knowing him for the 30 years and when he and Ravenhill wrote for Keith Green's Newsletter,and that we attended an A/G college, where my husband got his degree and at that time, we were told, we did not have to be Pre-Trib to be adherants to the SOF of the A/G and that my husband got his Minister's License from them.

I don't care what is being said about DW now, but I do not think it is fair to put on two suits to please the public.

I don't care what DW or any other man says anymore ... I only look at the Scriptural and Historic evidence, because I learned the hard way to not follow men. And now DW's rep who emailed you has convinced me of that more than ever.

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When someone is saved for 30 years or more as he has been, they should not be flip flopping around and hiding what they believe.

Ask David Wilkerson, who I considered a friend when we prayed together in Providence, RI many years ago, if he remembers Ann, who rebuked him in letter form back in the 80's for promoting Christian Rock in Keith Green's Newsletter and then he retracted and changed his view right after that also.

I trust God's Word and as you may remember ... John 16:13.

You saw that I didn't want to post here anymore, but since you went to so much trouble, I thought I would too.

See you when He Comes.

MeAgain/GrannieAnnie

Re:, on: 2006/1/18 17:45https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9121&forum=36&3

Please understand that pre-trib did not become a teaching in this country until after 1826, coming from overseas, and by1909 had entrenched itself into this country by folks like Scoffield, etc.

Look and see, it's not found in the Early Church Fathers and not found until the dates just given.

We must 'look for His appearing', we should and need to know what His Word says, 'Countless times' of "when" Hisappearing will be and that His appearing and Coming or Revealing are all one and the same event, when we aregathered unto Him in the air and He Returns for good with us.

That is all you will find in your search, Biblically and Historically.Not a verse pulled from here and there or what some teacher says ... but what the WHOLE Bible teaches on His Comingand the resurrection.

If your doctrine is off in this area, you will NOT have last days Discernment, to "count the number of the beast" Etc ... norhave the testimony of Jesus "which is the spirit of Prophecy" Rev.19:10,nor be prepared as Corrie Ten Boon's lettersays, a few pages back on this thread ... and will have thrown out such a tremendous amount of Scripture or Scripturalreferences and warnings, that it grieves the Holy Spirit of God unbelievably when we neglect that much of 'His' Word.

We only have two choices, "Believe what we want to believe" or open our Bibles and search from Genesis to Revelation, and write down every place that particular Doctrine of Christ's final return and the end days and the resurrection are mentioned and then sit back and look at All, and see.

I'm not posting this for entertainment purposes for myself and especially not to annoy anyone, but Pre-trib and Pan-Trib won't get you through. Only God's Word on the subject ... which we are commanded to know, if you read Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 ETC close enough, will show you from Jesus' lips Himself.

I get defensive sometimes about some things and come off hard to some but I'm no harder than other characters I've read about since time began who Loved God and His creation.

Love is not always sugary sweet and That, for folks who Know their Bible, should not have been needed to have been said.

Blessings.

/93


Re: - posted by Christinyou (), on: 2006/1/19 2:49This is what is called the rapture, 1st Thess 4: 17, which the word rapture is not in scripture. The word has been coinedby man from the words of "caught up" in :17, 726. harpazo KJVSLarpazw harpazo har-pad'-zo--from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull,take (by force). From Strongs concordance in the Greek.

Study the two parts of scripture and see that they are not for the same group of people. See the difference in times, onefor those that are asleep in Christ and those that are in Christ but still alive on earth, all caught up together with the Lord The other after the tribulation the caught up ones, by Christ Himself and the other by the angles He sends to gather afterthe tribulation. The caught up ones are with the Lord forever. See the difference in where they are. One with Christ inthe Clouds. The other, all tribes on the earth. Who are they on the earth, certainly not those that are with Christ.These are just a few of the differences in the two comings of Christ in His 2nd coming. Those that are already in Christare taking part in His 2nd coming already, and we are also resurrected with Him and our home is already with Him inHeavenly places. Blessed are those that take part in the first resurrection. We that are in Christ have only one thing left,that is our new bodies like His, which will come in the twinkling of and eye at the catching up at the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that yesorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them alsowhich sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are aliveand remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descendfrom heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall risefirst: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not giveher light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear thesign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of mancoming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of atrumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is just part of dividing the Word of God rightly. There are many more answers that the Holy Spirit will reveal if weonly ask. Even things we don't know or have not ever thought of.Jhn 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

1 John 2:28-29 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not beashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness isborn of him.

We are Gods children and we abide in Him. We are with Him before His coming, abiding in Him. This coming isespecially to judge Israel, and get God the Father's elect of the earth, and Christ ruling over the elect on this earth withthe Raptured in Christ with Him. It says God brings those with Him in two places, 1 Thess 4:14 and Rev 17:14 Theseshall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and theythat are with him called, and chosen, and faithful.

This is pre tribulation taking out of the Church the Body of Christ which is different from the rule on this earth over Israel and they proclaim the Gospel to all those on the earth after the tribulation.

In Christ: Phillip

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Re:, on: 2006/1/19 4:00The Definition of "rightly dividing the Truth" ... Quote:-------------------------We only have two choices, "Believe what we want to believe" or open our Bibles and search from Genesis to Revelation, and write down every single place that particular Doctrine of Christ's final return and the end days and the resurrection are mentioned and then sit back and lookat it All. Not a verse pulled from here and there or just what some 'teacher' says ... but what the WHOLE Bible teaches on His Coming and the resurrection.-------------------------

And we can also look at the Historic Evidence ...

The History of Pre-Trib Developmenthttp://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/index.html

Letter from Ruth Graham about book by Dave's 30 years of Research into the Origins. http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/ruth_graham_letter.html

Others weigh in on Dave's Researchhttp://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/scholars.html

Barnabas (40-100): "The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches...for the whole time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger....That the Black One may find no means of entrance..." (Epistle of Barnabas, 4).

Clement of Rome (40-100): "...the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'Speedily will He come, and will not tarry'; and, 'The Lord shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look'" (I Clement, 23).

Hermas (40-140): "Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire , will be purified by means of it....Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints..." (The Pastor of Hermas, Vision 4).

Polycarp (70-167): "He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead" (Epistle to the Philippians, II).

Justin Martyr (100-168): "The man of apostasy , who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians..." (Dialogue With Trypho, 110).

Melito (100-170): "For with all his strength did the adversary assail us, even then giving a foretaste of his activity among us which is to be without restraint..." (Discourse on the Resurrection, i, 8).

Irenaeus (140-202): "And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight" (Against Heresies, V, 26).

Tertullian (150-220): "The souls of the martyrs are taught to wait ...that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God..." (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, 25).

Hippolytus (160-240): "...the one thousand two hundred and three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains" (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).

Cyprian (200-258): "The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of the Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..." (Epistle, 55, 1).

Victorinus (240-303): "...the times of Antichrist, when all shall be injured" (Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John, VI, 5).

Lactantius (240-330): "And power will be given him to desolate the whole earth for forty-two months....When these things shall so happen, then the righteous and the followers of truth shall separate themselves from the wicked, and flee into solitudes" (Divine Institutes, VII, 17).

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Athanasius (293-373): "...they have not spared Thy servants, but are preparing the way for Antichrist" (History of the Arians, VIII, 79).

Ephraim the Syrian (306-373): "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." (Sermo Asceticus, I).

Pseudo-Ephraem (4th century?): "...there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one ..." (On the Last Times, the Antichrist etc., 2).

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): "The Church declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive...it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself ready beforehand" (Catechetical Lectures, 15, 9).

Jerome (340-420): "I told you that Christ would not come unless Antichrist had come before" (Epistle 21).

Chrysostom (345-407): "...the time of Antichrist...will be a sign of the coming of Christ..." (Homilies on First Thessalonians, 9).

Augustine (354-430): "But he who reads this passage , even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichristshall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church..." (The City of God, XX, 23).

Venerable Bede (673-735): " follow the reign of Antichrist" (The Explanation of the Apocalypse, II, 8).

Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153): "There remains only one thing----that the demon of noonday should appear, to seduce those who remain still in Christ..." (Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16).

Roger Bacon (1214-1274): "...because of future perils in the times of Antichrist..." (Opus Majus, II, p. 634).

John Wycliffe (1320-1384): "Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev. iii" (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wickliff, D.D., p. 155).

Martin Luther (1483-1546): " is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church..." (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).

William Tyndale (1492-1536): "...antichrist preacheth not Peter's doctrine (which is Christ's gospel)...he compelleth all men with violence of sword" (Greenslade's The Work of William Tindale, p. 127).

Menno Simons (1496-1561): "...He will appear as a triumphant prince and a victorious king to bring judgment. Then will those who persecute us look upon Him..." (Complete Writings..., p. 622).

John Calvin (1509-1564): "...we ought to follow in our inquiries after Antichrist, especially where such pride proceeds to a public desolation of the church" (Institutes, Vol. 2, p. 411).

John Knox (1515-1572): "...the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarn of dangers to come,so many years before they come to pass...to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist, The Whore of Babylon" (The History of the Reformation..., I, p. 76).

John Fox (1516-1587): "...that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church...to disturb the whole Church of Christ..." (Acts and Monuments, I).

Roger Williams (1603-1683): "Antichrist...hath his prisons, to keep Christ Jesus and his members fast..." (The Bloody Tenent, of Persecution, p. 153).

John Bunyan (1628-1688): "He comes in flaming fire and...the trump of God sounds in the air, the dead to hear his voice..." (The Last Four Things: Of Judgment).

Daniel Whitby (1638-1726): "...after the Fall of Antichrist, there shall be such a glorious State of the Church...so shall thisbe the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the Mark of the Beast..." (A Paraphrase and Commentary,

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p. 696).

Increase Mather (1639-1723): "That part of the world was to be principally the Seat of the Church of Christ during the Reign of Antichrist" (Ichabod, p. 64).

Matthew Henry (1662-1714): "Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace shall be kept by Christ in an hour of temptation " (Commentary, VI, p. 1134).

Cotton Mather (1663-1728): "...that New Jerusalem, whereto the Church is to be advanced, when the Mystical Babylon shall be fallen" (The Wonders of the Invisible World, p. 3).

Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758): "...continuance of Antichrist's reign did not commence before the year of Christ 479..." (A History of the Work of Redemption, p. 217).

John Wesley (1703-1791): "'The stars shall...fall from heaven,' (Revelation, vi. 13)....And then shall be heard the universal shout...followed by the 'voice of the archangel,'...'and the trumpet of God'...(I Thessalonians iv. 16)." (The Works of theRev. John Wesley, A.M., Vol. V, p. 173).

George Whitefield (1714-1770): "...'while the bridegroom tarried,' in the space of time which passeth between our Lord's ascension and his coming again to judgment..." (Gillies' Memoirs of Rev. George Whitefield, p. 471).

David Brainerd (1718-1747): "...and I could not but hope, that the time was at hand, when Babylon the great would fall and rise no more" (Memoirs..., p. 326).

Morgan Edwards (1722-1795): " has hitherto assumed no higher title than 'the vicar general of Christ on earth'..." (Two Academical Exercises etc., p. 20).

John Newton (1725-1807): "'Fear not temptation's fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. Thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour will soon be past'" (The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol. II, p. 152).

Adam Clarke (1762-1832): "We which are alive, and remain...he is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found on earth when Christ comes to judgment" (Commentary, Vol. VI, p. 550).

Charles G. Finney (1792-1875): "Christ represents it as impossible to deceive the elect. Matt. 24:24. We have seen that the elect unto salvation includes all true christians." (Lectures on Systematic Theology, p. 606).

Charles Hodge (1797-1878): "...the fate of his Church here on earth...is the burden of the Apocalypse" (Systematic Theology, Vol. III, p. 827).

Albert Barnes (1798-1870): "...he will keep them in the future trials that shall come upon the world " (Notes on the New Testament, p. 94).

George Mueller (1805-1898): "The Scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostacy shall have taken place, and the man of sin...shall have been revealed..." (Mrs. Mueller's Missionary Tours and Labours, p. 148).

Benjamin W. Newton (1805-1898): "The Secret Rapture was bad enough, but this was worse" (unpublished Fry MS. and F. Roy Coad's Prophetic Developments, p. 29).

R. C. Trench (1807-1886): "...the Philadelphian church...to be kept in temptation, not to be exempted from temptation..." (Seven Churches of Asia, pp. 183-184).

Carl F. Keil (1807-1888): "...the persecution of the last enemy Antichrist against the church of the Lord..." (Biblical Commentary, Vol. XXXIV, p. 503).

Henry Alford (1810-1871): "Christ is on His way to this earth ..." (The New Testament for English Readers, Vol. II, p. 491).

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John Lillie (1812-1867): "In his days was to be the great----the last----tribulation of the Church" (Second Thessalonians, pp. 537-538).

F. L. Godet (1812-1900): "The gathering of the elect ...is mentioned by St. Paul, 1 Thess. 4:16, 17, 2 Thess. 2:1..." (Commentary on Luke, p. 452).

Robert Murray McCheyne (1813-1842): "Christians must have 'great tribulation'; but they come out of it" (Bonar's Memoirs of McCheyne, p. 26).

S. P. Tregelles (1813-1875): "The Scripture teaches the Church to wait for the manifestation of Christ. The secret theory bids us to expect a coming before any such manifestation" (The Hope of Christ's Second Coming, p. 71).

Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890): "...the approaching day is the day of Christ, who comes...for final judgment" (Commentary on Hebrews, Vol. II, p. 183).

C. J. Ellicott (1819-1905): " 'to meet the Lord,' as He is coming down to earth..." (Commentary on the Thessalonian Epistles, p. 66).

Nathaniel West (1826-1906): " is built on a postulate, vicious in logic, violent in exegesis, contrary to experience, repudiated by the early Church, contradicted by the testimony of eighteen hundred years...and condemned by all the standard scholars of every age" (The Apostle Paul and the "Any Moment" Theory, p. 30).

Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910): "He will keep us in the midst of, and also from, the hour of temptation " (The Epistles of John, Jude and the Book of Revelation, p. 266).

J. H. Thayer (1828-1901): "To keep :...by guarding, to cause one to escape in safety out of" (A Greek-English Lexicon ofthe New Testament, p. 622).

Adolph Saphir (1831-1891): "...the advent of the Messiah...to which both the believing synagogue and the church of the Lord Jesus Christ are looking..." (The Epistle to the Hebrews, Vol. I, p. 96).

M. R. Vincent (1834-1922): "The preposition implies, not a keeping from temptation, but a keeping in temptation ..." (Word Studies..., p. 466).

William J. Erdman (1834-1923): "...by the 'saints' seen as future by Daniel and by John are meant 'the Church'..." (Noteson the Book of Revelation, p. 47).

H. Grattan Guinness (1835-1910): "...the Church is on earth during the action of the Apocalypse..." (The Approaching End of the Age, p. 136).

H. B. Swete (1835-1917): "The promise , as Bede says, is 'not indeed of your being immune from adversity, but of not being overcome by it'" (The Apocalypse of St. John, p. 56).

William G. Moorehead (1836-1914): "...the last days of the Church's deepest humiliation when Antichrist is practicing and prospering (Dan. viii:12)..." (Outline Studies in the New Testament, p. 123).

A. H. Strong (1836-1921): "The final coming of Christ is referred to in: Mat. 24:30... I Thess. 4:16..." (Systematic Theology, p. 567).

Theodor Zahn (1838-1933): "...He will preserve...at the time of the great temptation ..." (Zahn-Kommentar, I, p. 305).

I. T. Beckwith (1843-1936): "The Philadelphians...are promised that they shall be carried in safety through the great trial , they shall not fall" (The Apocalypse of John, p. 484).

Robert Cameron (1845-1922): "The Coming for, and the Coming with, the saints, still persists, although it involves a manifest contradiction, viz., two Second Comings which is an absurdity" (Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p. 16).

B. B. Warfield (1851-1921): "...He shall come again to judgment...to close the dispensation of grace..." (Biblical Doctrine

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s, p. 639).

David Baron (1855-1926): "(Tit. ii. 13), for then the hope as regards the church, and Israel, and the world, will be fully realised" (Visions of Zechariah, p. 323).

Philip Mauro (1859-1952): "...'dispensational teaching' is modernistic in the strictest sense...it first came into existence within the memory of persons now living..." (The Gospel of the Kingdom, p. 8).

A. T. Robertson (1863-1934): "In Rev. 3:10...we seem to have the picture of general temptation with the preservation of the saints" (A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, p. 596).

R. C. H. Lenski (1864-1936): "...it shall be kept untouched and unharmed by the impending dangers " (The Interpretation of St. John's Revelation, pp. 146-146).

William E. Biederwolf (1867-1939): "Godet, like most pre-millennial expositors, makes no provision for any period between the Lord's coming for His saints and His coming with them..." (The Second Coming Bible, p. 385).

Alexander Reese (1881-1969): "...we quite deliberately reject the dispensational theories, propounded first about 1830..." (The Approaching Advent of Christ, p. 293).

Norman S. MacPherson (1899-1980): "...the view that the Church will not pass into or through the Great Tribulation is based largely upon arbitrary interpretations of obscure passages" (Triumph Through Tribulation, p. 5).

This Month from Decision Magazine by Billy Grahan: "If the world should fall into perilous times, if the Antichrist should arise to mislead and destroy, or if we should witness the full unveiling of the Apocalypse in our midst, we can rest completely in Christ. Those who come to Him in faith and humility belong to Him, and nothing can remove us from His eternal kingdom. We are secure in His love."

Re: - posted by Christinyou (), on: 2006/1/19 14:57These truths from scripture are not choice, they are revelation. The more I read scripture the more I understand and until the Church divides Israel from The Body of Christ, Pre tribulation of the Rapture will always be a mystery. We cannot commingle Law and Grace and we cannot commingle Israel, the wife of God with the Body of Christ His bride. A wife is not an offspring of the Husband, but a son is an offspring of the Father who needs only to chooses a bride for His only First Born, the chosen being all son's and daughters betrothed to Jesus Christ. The difference being created beings and because of the fall of Adam, offspring of Satan, by choice. New creatures in Christ, direct offspring of the Father by Birth of the Incorruptable Seed of the Father which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. When this dividing of the Word is understood then the only choice for the Parousia is The Rapture before the tribulation. The dead in Christ brought in the clouds and caught up together with those that are His that are not dead in Christ but alive in Christ and they will be changed in the twinkling of and eye and Christ will take us home to the Father's House and so shall we be with the Lord forever.

I don't read to many others works, I must be shown and approved by the Holy Spirit Himself what Truth is and so far He has never let me down. The more He teaches the more the Plan of God becomes brighter and brighter. We can chase other men's folly but we know when the other men are in line with the Truth because the Holy Spirit is one in them and we have fellowship in presenting every man perfect in Christ. Christ in us is different from anything ever known before theCross. We must seek Him and Him alone and His Righteousness will lead us to our Father's House where we already have a place prepared for us.

In Christ: Phillip

Re: - posted by ccchhhrrriiisss (), on: 2006/1/19 15:53Hi MeAgain...!

Great list of comments and sources! Thanks for posting. It is quite thought-provoking!

:-)

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Re: - posted by Christinyou (), on: 2006/1/19 23:37This is the definition of rightly dividing the truth. John 14:25-31 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet presentwith you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you allthings, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace Igive unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye haveheard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I gounto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come topass, ye might believe. Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing inme. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise,let us go hence.

There is only One that rightly divides the truth in us and that is the Comforter, The Holy Spirit Himself changing our oldmind to the new Mind Of Christ that we now possess. "ARISE, LET US GO HENCE."

1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with theflesh the law of sin.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Cr 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and there be no divisions among you; but ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

In Christ: Phillip

Re: Chrisinyou, on: 2006/1/20 0:57Ya see, this is what I mean about "picking and choosing what 'parts' of Scripture we choose" and Not Looking at theWhole.

We were discussing a "Doctrine" here of Eschatology.

You keep talking about rightly dividing, and then go off on JUST the work of the Holy Spirit.

The verse you keep on about, "rightly dividing" starts with - "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

John 16:13 was always my signature, so I don't disagree with the verses about the work of the Holy Spirit, BUT no where does it negate the absolute necessity to study and the only way to 'study' God's Word properly is to get every Scripture reference on the topic, from Genesis to Revelation and Study what they 'all' say when all looked at together. They'll form a clear puzzle picture.

A verse here and there, is what cults etc. do.The Jesus only people say, the Holy Spirit can only give you the revelation of the Doctrine, even though I gave them 22 pages of Scripture denying Oneness. We as Christians, must do better with our "Doctrine" forming. In fact, that part is a commandment and warning, that cannot be ignored.

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How would you prove the Deity of Christ ?By finding every verse in the entire Bible that proves it ... not by telling someone that the Holy Spirit told you so. (only)

The definition in the Greek of "Doctrine" is "Teaching" ... "Teaching" is what God has left us a Bible for.

The definition of "Heresy or Heresies" in the Greek is .... "Choice ... to choose for oneself ... the Opinion chosen".

So God is saying, Everyone "chooses" what exactly they "want" to believe.

The Holy Spirit is 100% Inerrant and Trustworthy BUT we are not.

So that is why, God did not just leave us the Holy Spirit to indwell us,(because we can "choose" to not listen to Him on a certain leading, etc.) but He left us an entire book to Study ... but then we just "choose" what we believe ... by picking outthis verse and that verse and out of context of it's surrounding Verses or Chapters, instead of finding every verse from Genesis to Revelation on that topic.

HE 'is' trustworthy, we are not ... so we must Study ... Test all things ... seek out the matter ... be diligent in our searching for Truth ... and so forth.

Hermeneutics, Exegesis and Apologetics and sometimes even Church History are necessary to fulfill 2Ti 2:15. And that is what Paul was trying to tell Timothy there.

Take Care friend.

Re: Last Days Doctrine, on: 2006/2/19 12:48The last days are over, there are no last days. The New Testement is useless without the Old Testement. The OldTestement confirms the New and thus we need the Old to learn what the New is saying and vise versa.

Before Pentecost, before Jesus and John the baptist, a few hundred years before they came on the scene there was aprophet named Joel who prophesied of the coming of the LORD in the last days. Lets read it.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and yourdaughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.

If you notice something here that nothing is mentioned here of the "last days".

But Peter who was in the Spirit on the day of Pentecost interprets Joels prophecy to be of the last days.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sonsand your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Here is another one to look at. Everyone believes that Elijah is coming in our future to prepare the way of the LORD.

From the old we have:

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

From the new we have:

Matthew 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall preparethy way before thee.

Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Here is another:

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall

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befall you in the last days.

Look what Jacob had to say about the last days concerning judah referring to Jesus Christ.

Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; andunto him shall the gathering of the people be. Genesis 11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto thechoice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:12 His eyes shall be red with wine,and his teeth white with milk.

I want you to take notice of this foal and the ass's colt.

Matthew 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a coltthe foal of an ass.

I am going to tell you what convinced me that we are NOT in the last days and that the last days were 2000 years agowas Daniel 9:27

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause thesacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until theconsummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This is where the gap theory comes into play, it's in this verse of scripture. This is where they get the pre, mid and posttribulation whichever you fall under this is where they get the third temple rebuilt, the modern so called jew going back to animal sacrifices etc.. and God going back to the jews etc..and a host of other teachings all come from this one verse.

But my Father revealed to me that they are all in error, and that 'he' was confirming the covenant with many for one week was NOT an antichrist, but was Jesus Christ Himself. Because in the middle of His week he was slain on the cross, His atonement replaced the oblations and the daily sacrifice. But because the Jews continued on with their sacrifice they became an abomination in the site of God. And because of these abominations the LORD sent his army the Rome to destroy Jerusalam and made it desolete. Isaiah confirms this regarding the abomination;

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Ezekiel confirms this referring to God using an Army.

Ezekiel 29:19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army. 20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labour wherewith he served against it, because they wrought for me, saith the Lord GOD.

We need to seek these things out to see where these things fit, like the Bereans.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Are we going to believe what CNN and or what the Middle East is dictating to us, or are we going to believe the prophets, apostles and Jesus Christ on what they said?

The above scriptures are just the tip of the iceberg, there's a whole lot more.

Karl

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Tozers thought's - posted by crsschk (), on: 2006/2/19 13:51The Revelation is sobering, for it is a vision of judgment that is coming upon a sinful, selfish, violent world. John sees theSon of man appearing with clouds to Â“{swing} his sickle over the earth and reap the harvestÂ” (14:14-16). John musthave been greatly moved as he viewed the new heaven and the new earth God is preparing for His people (21:1-5). Hetells us of the river of life that flows forever and, beside it, the tree of life with its leaves for the healing of the nations(22:1-2).

I speak of these things as still future. Many Christians of past centuries insisted that all the events and scenes in theRevelation were already history, that none of the book was predictive. It is a gracious aspect of our evangelical Christianfellowship that we do not make uniformity in prophetic interpretation the test of Christian orthodoxy. As believers we donot sit in judgment of others whose views on these matters are not identical with our own. Determining the actual dayand hour of ChristÂ’s return to earth is not the occupation God has assigned to us. Our constant readiness to meet Himwhen He does return should be our most important consideration.

I have been studying these Scriptures for many years. I am prepared to give my answer to an ancient question: Â“Are allthese scenes in the Revelation history?Â” I can best answer with some questions of my own:

Has the sun yet turned black like sackcloth? Has the moon yet become blood red? Have the stars yet fallen from theheavens? (Revelation 6:12-13)

Has there been a time when the sky receded like a scroll being rolled up? Have the mountains and the islands beenmoved from their places? (6:14)

When did the earth experience an invasion of locust-like creatures whose sting killed a third of the worldÂ’s population?(9:1-11)

If the prophesied destroyer has already appeared and the seven angels of judgment have already done their work(chapters 8-9), would we not have known it?

Would there not be some notice in our history books if four specially commissioned angels and 200,000,000extraterrestrial cavalry had wiped out a third of earthÂ’s population? (9:15-19)

When was the abyssÂ—that bottomless pitÂ—opened to allow Satan to come forth again for a short time? (20:7-8)

No, I do not think all these events have taken place. On the other hand, I do believe that the Word of God tells us westand on the verge of the most dramatic and far-reaching developments since Adam stood up in the garden of Eden andEve stood by his side. I do not know all the details of the future. But I do know that our Lord is returning to earth. And inthat Day of our Lord, the Holy City will come down out of heaven beautifully dressed as a bride for her husband (21:2).We have in the Scriptures many appeals to be ready for that day. We are not to live just for now and for this world. Weare to live each day with a view of the world above! I am troubled because the church of Jesus Christ today does notseem to know as much about spiritual victory and rejoicing in the Lord as did our forefathers in the Christian faith andfellowship.

Within my own denominational background, I have read much and reflected often on the ministries of A.B. Simpson andthe joyful fellowship of those who associated with him in the late years of the nienteenth century. One of the godlyChristian brothers who joined with Dr. Simpson was an officer in the Savation Army, Russell Kelso Carter. He and thosesincere believers were so enthralled with the scriptural promises of ChristÂ’s ultimate triumph that Carter was moved towrite a gospel song that is still in our hymnal: Â“Jesus Is Victor!Â”

Congregations sang that message often in their services of praise, for they believed it was true. Jesus is Victor indeed!Kelso CarterÂ’s song depicts clearly and confidently the major themes that prevail throughout the book of Revelation:Jesus is victorÂ—His work is complete,Crushing all enemies under His feet.Jesus is victor; He died not in vain,Risen and glorified, Jesus doth reign!Jesus is victorÂ—without and within,Saving and keeping and cleansing from sin;Jesus is victor, O heavenly Dove,

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Come to abide and make perfect in love.Jesus is victorÂ—the heavens shall ring,Great king of terrors, where is thy sting?Jesus is victorÂ—weÂ’ll shout oÂ’er the grave,Glory to God, He is mighty to save!My word to you is this: Do not neglect, do not ignore GodÂ’s message to our race in this Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Look, he is coming with the clouds,and every eye will see him,even those who pierced him;and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.So shall it be! Amen.Â“I am the Alpha and the Omega,Â” says the Lord God, Â“who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.Â”Â“Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.Â”Â“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am theAlpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.Â”He who testifies to these things says, Â“Yes, I am coming soon.Â”Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.Revelation 1:7-8; 22:7, 12, 20

Jesus is VictorA.W. Tozer

Re: Bits of ECFs., on: 2006/2/20 15:10Take notice of the dates, if you're inclined toward Preterism or the likes of it.

The "man" of sin and the Saints and the Lord's Second Advent ....

~ Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165)

"Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, ...Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus."

~ Irenaeus: Discipled by Polycarp who was discipled by John. (AD. 120-202) "Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one , when this shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against. These men, therefore, ought to learn , and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. ... It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. ... But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this "man" comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: ... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, HE will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this "man" and those who follow "him" into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abr

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aham, Isaac, and Jacob."

" an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor a legitimate king in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless 'one'; as an apostate, iniquitous, and murderous, as a robber, concentrating in himself satanic apostasy, and seeking aside idols to persuade that he himself is God raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who doworship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians."

"And there is therefore in this beast, when "HE"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the LordÂ’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise...These haveone mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords, and King of kings...And they (Ten Kings) shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.Â”

"But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes 'we' may avoid him, being aware of who he is:...But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple in Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that Â“many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.Â”

"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of the Antichrist, and the destruction of nations under his rule; in (the times of) which (resurrection) the righteous shall reign on the earth...and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked 'one' (Antichrist)."

~ Hippolytus: Bishop of Portus, was a disciple of Irenaeus who was discipled by Polycarp who was discipled from John.(AD. 170-236)

"As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from AlexanderÂ’s time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ."

It is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time that impious one shall be revealed; and whence and from what tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stirup tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord shall be revealed from heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world shall be; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints is to be, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire...With respect to his name, it is not in our power to explain it exactly, as the blessed John understood it and was instructed about it, but only to give a conjectural account of it; for when he appears, the blessed one will show us what we seek to know... Wherefore we oughtneither to give it out as if this were certainly his name, nor again ignore the fact that he may not otherwise be designated. But having the mystery of God in our heart, we ought in fear to keep faithfully what has been told us by blessed prophets, in order that when those things come to pass, we may be prepared for them, and not be deceived. For when the times advance, he too, of whom these things are said, will be manifest...Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus, "A

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nd I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, ... And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpentÂ”...That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church.... These things then, being come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope."

"on account of his tyranny and violence. For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king. The Savior was manifested as a lamb; so he too in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Savior came into the world in the circumcision, and he will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. The Savior gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad, and he in like manner will bring together a people that is scattered abroad. The Lord gave a seal to those who believed on Him; and he will give one in like manner. The Savior appeared in the form of man, and he too will come in the form of a man. The Savior raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem."

"He ( Antichrist )will be harsh, severe, passionate, wrathful, terrible, inconstant, dread, morose, hateful, abominable, savage, vengeful, iniquitous. And, bent on casting the whole race of men into the pit of perdition, he will multiply false signs."

Â“When the times are fulfilled, and the ten horns spring from the beast in the last (times), then Antichrist will appear among them. When he makes war against the saints, and persecutes them, then may we expect the manifestation of the Lord from heaven.

"shall be sent through every city and country to destroy the faithful; and the saints shall travel from the west to the east, and shall be driven in persecution from the east to the south, while others shall conceal themselves in the mountains and caves; and the abomination shall war against them everywhere, and shall cut them off by the sea and by land by his decree, and shall endeavor by every means to destroy them out of the world; and they shall not be able any longer to sell their own property, nor to buy from strangers, unless one keeps and carries with him the name of the beast, or bears its mark upon his forehead. For then they shall all be driven out from place to place, and dragged from their own homes and haled into prison, and punished with all manner of punishment, and cast out from the whole world." These shall awake to everlasting life."

~ Lactantius (260-330)

"He ( Antichrist ) shall harass the word with an intolerable rule; shall mingle things divine and human; shall contrive things impious to relate, and detestable; shall meditate new designs in his breast, that he may establish the government for himself; he will change the laws, and appoint his own; he ( Antichrist )will contaminate, plunder, spoil, and put to death."

~ Tertullian (c. 160 - 225)

Â“...that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, and that the beast Antichrist, with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God...Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate on the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world ...Now the privilege of this favor (the resurrection) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints...Â”

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Re: - posted by Logic, on: 2006/2/20 21:08Healingwaters wrote:Quote:-------------------------Before Pentecost, before Jesus and John the baptist, a few hundred years before they came on the scene there was a prophet named Joel who prophesied of the coming of the LORD in the last days. Lets read it.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.

If you notice something here that nothing is mentioned here of the "last days".

But Peter who was in the Spirit on the day of Pentecost interprets Joels prophecy to be of the last days.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:-------------------------

Notice that Peter never finished that prophecie. It then goes on to say...Joel 2:30 "And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."Why did Peter stop where he did? Because That part has not yet come. therefore we haven't yet reached the "final days".

Quote:-------------------------Here is another one to look at. Everyone believes that Elijah is coming in our future to prepare the way of the LORD.

From the old we have:

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

From the new we have:

Matthew 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.-------------------------

Midrash interprets prophecy as a cyclical pattern of historical recapitulation (prophecies having multiple fulfillment), with an ultimate fulfillment associated with the eschaton, which is the final focal point of the redemptive process.There is going to be "anther Elijah" even after John the Baptist. I believe on of the two witnesses in Rev. 11:3

I am going to tell you what convinced me that we are NOT in the last days and that the last days were NOT 2000 years ago.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This is where the gap theory comes into play, it's in this verse of scripture. This is where they get the pre, mid and post tribulation whichever you fall under this is where they get the third temple rebuilt, the modern so called jew going back to animal sacrifices etc.. and God going back to the jews etc..and a host of other teachings all come from this one verse.

Quote:-------------------------But my Father revealed to me that they are all in error, and that 'he' was confirming the covenant with many for one week was NOT an antichrist, but was Jesus Christ Himself. Because in the middle of His week he was slain on the cross, His atonement replaced the oblations and the daily sacrifice. But because the Jews continued on with their sacrifice they became an abomination in the site of God. And because of these abominations the LORD sent his army the Rome to destroy Jerusalam and made it desolete. Isaiah confirms this regarding the abomination;-------------------------

I think is it the destruction of the temple that stops the "clock" if you will for there to be a week leaft in the prophetical cal

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anderThere is a week left to go that hasn't been fullfilled yet.Daniel 9:27 That ruler will have a firm agreement with many people for seven years, and when half this time is past, he will put an end to sacrifices and offerings. The Awful Horror will be placed on the highest point of the Temple and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him." That Awful Horror is th dome of the rock that is sitting where the Temple is to be. ButRev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. :2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

When they rebuild the new temple, they will leave out the outer court and I believe they will rebuild the dome right next to it when there is a "false peace".

did you know that works of excavation are still taking place under the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, whichundermine the foundation of both structures and threaten to make them crumble and fall. The destruction of both Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock, and the building of the Temple in their place, is one of the major goals of the Zionist Movement.

Most People who have the Pre-trib view aren't takeing in concideration the times that make up the whole tribulation. There is a time of "false peace" as I mentioned before, with the persecution of the True Church. then after that there is the time of "Gods' Wrath which we are not appointed to."

We, the Church go up in the rapture here...Rev. 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"I say this because of Rev 8:1 "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

hemiorion {hay-mee-o'-ree-on} with the root word of hora {ho'-rah} wich can mean season. The whole tribulation a a season. the mark of a 1/2 season is put there to tell us something. The seven seals are the "false peace" with the persecution of the True Church. Rev. 13:7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." which I also believe to be the fourth Horseman and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him: the False prophet ant the Anti-christ.

We are not raptured then because in Chapter 14 is the 144000 which equates with the 144000 in chapter 7, in that we are not yet raptured.God's Wrathe is that Chapter is in verse 7 of Chapt 14. "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour(season) of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." and verse 14-16 is the proof of God takeing us out of the way. as in Mattew 13: 24-30 & 37-43The seven trumets in which are the seven bowls, these are of "Gods' Wrath"

Re:, on: 2006/2/20 22:05Logic, have you looked at the Early Church Father's quotes above ?

Have you had a chance to read this thread at all yet ?

Just wondering if you see two "comings" of the Lord .... one to get us ... and then again to descend to earth ?

And two "resurrections" .... the one you say is in Chpt. 7 and then another in chpt 20:4-6, when Christ returns ?

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Re: - posted by Logic, on: 2006/2/20 23:18MeAgain wrote: Quote:-------------------------And two "resurrections" .... the one you say is in Chpt. 7 and then another in chpt 20:4-6, when Christ returns?-------------------------

Capter 7 isn't a resurrection as the one in Chapter 20:6. It would have to be in Chapter11:15-19.

Revelations interprates it'self to a point. You need to look at how some parts of revelation meshed with other parts.Remember the Bowl & the Trumpets are all in the 6th and 7th seal and the Bowls are all in the 6th and 7th trumpet.

You can't read Revelations as chronologicly linier in time from chapter to chapter although some chapters are. Some thing could happen at the same time or even overlap.

The sections are split into parts.The revelation Chap. 1The Letters to the Churches in chap.s' 2-3The throne room in chapt.s' 4,5The Horsemen Chapt;6:1-8, which coinsides with or overlaps with Chpt.s' 6:9-Chapt.11Then a whole new view or "sign" starts in Chapt. 12-14Then another view or "sign" starts in Chapt.s 15-22

Quote:-------------------------Just wondering if you see two "comings" of the Lord .... one to get us ... and then again to descend to earth ?-------------------------

Yes I do, but the rapture isn't a "comeing". It was His earthly rule that was His first comeing.His second comeing is when He come in the clouds with the Saints(us).

The Two Comeings:

Act 1:6 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" What the apostles were really asking was: We know that you are the son of Joseph(Suffering Servant), but when are you going to be the son of David(Conquering King)? When are you going to restore the kingdom the way David did?

Even John the Baptist could not understand this.Luke 7:19 "And summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, ?Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?"

the apostles, were unable to understand that it is one Messiah, but two comings.

In His first coming, the Lord Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of Joseph. In His second coming, He will be the Messiah, the Son of David, the conquering king who will fully establish the kingdom.

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Re: Last Days Doctrine - posted by TonyS (), on: 2006/2/20 23:41There are some questions I have for those who hold to the theory that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation (through for any length).

#1 is the thought that the Church must go through the Great Tribulation in order that the Church will be purified.

I heard a Minister years ago make the statement that to believe such a thing in essence is believing in a Â“Protestant purgatoryÂ”.

If it be true for this reason (among others) that the Church must go through the Great Tribulation to be purified, then does this theory hold that all of the Saints who have died must be raised to life and go through it also?

I have more questions, but will start with this.

tonys

Re: - posted by Logic, on: 2006/2/21 0:11TonyS wrote: Quote:-------------------------There are some questions I have for those who hold to the theory that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation (through for any length).

#1 is the thought that the Church must go through the Great Tribulation in order that the Church will be purified.-------------------------

The Tribulation is not to Purify. It is God time for Israel. The last week in Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Quote:-------------------------I heard a Minister years ago make the statement that to believe such a thing in essence is believing in a Â“Protestant purgatoryÂ”.

If it be true for this reason (among others) that the Church must go through the Great Tribulation to be purified, then does this theory hold that all of theSaints who have died must be raised to life and go through it also?

I have more questions, but will start with this.

tonys -------------------------

Answer is no.

What you call the tribulation is the whole seven years, They who are still alive only need to go through untill the sixth seal then the seventh seal will bring the seven trump. exetera. Read my last two posts post.

Re: - posted by TonyS (), on: 2006/2/21 0:56Logic wrote:

Quote:-------------------------The Tribulation is not to Purify. It is God time for Israel.-------------------------

I have always understood that the prophecy of Daniel 9 has nothing to do with the Church. This prophecy is for DanielÂ’s people, the Jews and His Holy City Jerusalem. There are several indicators in GodÂ’s timetable for Israel and one of G

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odÂ’s first purposes that can be determined during the 490 years is found in the phrase Â“to finish the transgressionÂ” which has to do with that nation living as God intended them to live. According to Romans 9, 10, and 11 this will finally take place when the remnant of Israel accepts Christ as their Messiah which takes place in Revelation 7, during the tribulation period.

I believe it important to realize the Prophets did not see any time element in their prophecies. They saw the events of thefirst coming of Christ and His return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords all as one major event.

tonys

Re:, on: 2006/2/21 3:50Hia Logic, I find this as confusing as HW's post on his thread, where he says in his post to me ... " these are just theories, no one really knows the truth of these subjects"

But then goes on to say to me, "no sense in arguing with me" and "than continue on in your ignorance".

O.K., so ... either "these are just theories", that he states "no one really knows the truth of these subjects", or not.But apparently he feels they 'are' theories, that someone really 'does' know the truth of and that one person is him.

I am quoting this 2006/2/20 13:16 post on this thread ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9606&forum=36&8

Now as far as my answer to this above post quote of HW's and anyone else's statements of "we can't know for sure" ... that's where we would be calling God's Word incomplete or that Eschatology has been "hid" from us as Christians.

What ???

If that were true, then Jesus and Paul lied to us when they said, they've told us all things.And to go one step further, when Jesus said the Spirit of Truth would lead us into all truth and even show us things to come. And Rev 19:10 defines the "testimony of Jesus" to be "the spirit of prophecy".

What type God would write so very very much from the O.T. to the New and devote chpts and chpts and a whole book, just to leave us in the dark ?

This is too sad.

Logic, you really didn't answer my 4 questions, and the Early Church Father's post, that no one seems to care a zip about.

I'm going to be gone until evening today, so I'll pray we can come together with some understanding here and not just quote some Internet Guru and post what we really see for ourselves in Scripture.

We have to stand before God ourselves with what we've believed and can't blame our Pastor's or some other ministry orperson for what we believe.

I'd recognise that definition of Midrash a mile away, so I'm asking you as a friend and brother to please ... let's look at JUST the Scriptures together and the same for all of us. Please let's just look at the Scriptures and not at what man is teaching or has taught.

I don't think that's being arrogant, or unreasonable ... I think it's just holy FEAR for what is happening to the Church and what will happen if we don't get back to being Bible Only people. I don't "teach eschatology", though if someone wants tothrow that at me, that's O.K., but all that I Like to do is just lay out every Scripture we can find ... in it's Context, that addresses the end times and just look at the Scriptures. There is no other way to form Doctrine.

Love you guys and I hope you know that.Love is not just a word to throw around ... Love hurts when it's His Love.

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Looking forward to TTYL,His Love and Peace,Annie

Re: TonyS - posted by CJaKfOrEsT (), on: 2006/2/21 5:24

Quote:-------------------------TonyS wrote:If it be true for this reason (among others) that the Church must go through the Great Tribulation to be purified, then does this theory hold that all of theSaints who have died must be raised to life and go through it also?

-------------------------

I'm reminded of a comment that Paris Reidhead made in his sermon ("https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid40") The Right Use of the Law. He said something to the effect of, "Don't go trying to put a 'why' where God only leaves a 'what'." It seems that many people won't believesomething that God says unless He appeals to their sense of logic.

If God was to lead His church through a tribulation, would He have to have a reason why? If He does, then was His reason for leading the medieval, chinese, and early church through theirs? Just a thought.

Re: - posted by CJaKfOrEsT (), on: 2006/2/21 6:22

Quote:-------------------------Logic wrote:Midrash interprets prophecy as a cyclical pattern of historical recapitulation (prophecies having multiple fulfillment), with an ultimate fulfillment associated with the eschaton, which is the final focal point of the redemptive process.

-------------------------

For more on midrash, in the context of end times, check out ("https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id5497&forum36#39895") The Future History of theChurch by J. Jacob Prasch.

Re: - posted by Logic, on: 2006/2/21 9:49CJaKfOrEsT wrote:Quote:-------------------------For more on midrash, in the context of end times, check out ("https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id5497&forum36#39895") The Future History of the Church by J. Jacob Prasch.-------------------------

I Love Jacob Prasch. He comes to my Church about twice a year. I've heard most every one of his teachings.He's a mid- tiber too, you know :-)

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Re: - posted by Logic, on: 2006/2/21 10:54MeAgain wrote:Quote:-------------------------I'm going to be gone until evening today, so I'll pray we can come together with some understanding here and not just quote some Internet Guru and post what we really see for ourselves in Scripture.

I'd recognise that definition of Midrash a mile away, so I'm asking you as a friend and brother to please ... let's look at JUST the Scriptures together and the same for all of us. Please let's just look at the Scriptures and not at what man is teaching or has taught.

but all that I Like to do is just lay out every Scripture we can find ... in it's Context, that addresses the end times and just look at the Scriptures. There isno other way to form Doctrine.

Looking forward to TTYL,His Love and Peace,Annie -------------------------

You mentioned the Early Church Father's, you are guilty of what you are saying about "internet gurus" or "what man is teaching or has taught."

doctrine: didache {did-akh-ay'}:1) teaching a) that which is taught b) doctrine, teaching, concerning something2) the act of teaching, instruction a) in religious assemblies of the Christians, to speak in the way of teaching, in distinction from other modes of speaking in public

You cann't just dicount everything that is said in theology that isn't directly in the Bibile. I posted that definition of Midrashbecause I really see it for myself in Scripture. What was quoted is a fact. It is good to listen to what man is teaching or has taught (like the early Fathers) because that is how God works, through other Christians.

My Pastor formed alot of what I believe today, but I also searched it out after he taught it. I do that to everything I am taught. I am sure that what you believe is from what another "man" has taught you.

If we can only look at the Scriptures, there is no need for this forum, because we(man) are teaching as we quote the scriptures.

Furthermore, I don't quote any "Internet Gurus". I only listen to men who has sound respected doctrine and who has integrety in there teaching and ministeries. If we can't quote them, whet are they doing going around the world in there ministery for. My paster is in south Africa right now teaching, would you call him some global guru? or the person whom I quoted? His, and all quotes I put on this forum are all valid as my own words because I would have said what they have said if I could have said it better. I only quoted it because He can put it alot better tham I can.

Re:, on: 2006/2/21 20:06Hi brother Logic,

I'll put yours in bold and I'll answer as best I can in regular font.

You mentioned the Early Church Father's, you are guilty of what you are saying about "internet gurus" or "what man is teaching or has taught."

I think the difference between the ECFs and today is Polycarp sat directly under John, Iraneous directly under Polycarp, Hippolytus under Iraneous, and within a close enough distance of the writing of The Revelation, whereas, our internet teachers, etc. have almost 1900 years away from first hand exposure to the Apostle and much has gone around and around in the doctrines since, and most especially Eschatology.

doctrine: didache {did-akh-ay'}:1) teaching

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a) that which is taught b) doctrine, teaching, concerning something2) the act of teaching, instruction a) in religious assemblies of the Christians, to speak in the way of teaching, in distinction from other modes of speaking in public

You cann't just dicount everything that is said in theology that isn't directly in the Bibile. I posted that definition of Midrash because I really see it for myself in Scripture. What was quoted is a fact. It is good to listen to what man is teaching or has taught (like the early Fathers) because that is how God works, through other Christians.

My Pastor formed alot of what I believe today, but I also searched it out after he taught it. I do that to everything I am taught. I am sure that what you believe is from what another "man" has taught you.

If we can only look at the Scriptures, there is no need for this forum, because we(man) are teaching as we quotethe scriptures.

Furthermore, I don't quote any "Internet Gurus". I only listen to men who has sound respected doctrine and who has integrety in there teaching and ministeries. If we can't quote them, whet are they doing going around the world in there ministery for. My paster is in south Africa right now teaching, would you call him some global guru? or the person whom I quoted? His, and all quotes I put on this forum are all valid as my own words because Iwould have said what they have said if I could have said it better. I only quoted it because He can put it alot better tham I can.

No offense to Pastor Randles at all brother ... I've only asked that we look at Scripture alone together.

Pastor Randles is part of the Apologetics Team and I respect him.

I also respect many many other men, and most all of the Classic Authors on this site ... but I may not necesarily agree with their eschatology.

I do not believe Tim LaHaye and he is a 'guru' to pre-tribbers, obviously.

So please don't take offense to a broad brush statement.

I agree with your posts and others, where we agree, so I have nothing personal against you ... and I think you may already know that.

As far as Midrash goes ... the sentence you gave regarding "prophecy" is true ... but that is not Only the belief of Midrash, but of most Protestant scholars also. The prophecies DO have multiple fulfillments. That is not an exclusive belief of just Midrashic interpretation.

Midrash, goes much deeper than just bringing this point out about prophecy ... much, much further... but that would be another thread, some other time.

Hope you understand, I wasn't singling you out with some of those comments this a.m..

Just would love to try to do eschatology with Scripture only and leave all else behind.I reckon that is what I could have just said, more simply.

Sorry for the upset.

Maybe tomorrow, if you want, we could do that.

God Bless ya brother.Annie the foolish Grannie

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Re:, on: 2006/2/21 20:55Oh praise God for you Logic,

Quote:-------------------------Notice that Peter never finished that prophecie. It then goes on to say...-------------------------

Yes your so right, but you have to remember that Jesus was cut off in the middle of His week. The first part of the prophecy was to be a witness that God confirmed the covenant with Abraham by sending the promise seed. The apostles were His witnesses that Jesus rose again. The final part of that prophecy that Joel spoke of was for the destruction of Jerusalem in the year of our LORD 70.

There is absolutely no reference in any scriptures anywhere that refers to a 2000 year gap. The closest gap theory that was possibly used using numbers in the book of Daniel was the year 1844. The Seven Day Adventist probably came up with this outcome and have squeezed all kinds of events into this year to make thier theory stick.

But than again we shouldn't be surprised at this as we see this all the time in our day, men trying to put a time and date on the Rapture.

I gotta go my internet time is just about up.

Thanks for the questions, they are very stimulating.

Karl

Re:, on: 2006/2/21 21:14This would be a problem ... to have limited internet time.

Is that why you've only answered on small quote from these two whole pages Karl ?

I've got questions on 'our' resurrection, on your thread and I'll also pose them here.

Do we get resurrected bodies or just plain resurrected (same thing), when the Lord Comes ?

Re: - posted by Logic, on: 2006/2/22 13:56Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause thesacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until theconsummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Do you think that this has come to pass already then since you said, that it Quote:-------------------------was Jesus Christ Himself. Because in the middle of His week he was slain on the cross, His atonement replaced the oblations and the daily sacrifice. But because the Jews continued on with their sacrifice they became an abomination in the site of God. And because of these abominations the LORD sent his army the Rome to destroy Jerusalam and made it desolete.-------------------------

Where does the Tribulation fit in then? Has this verse also come to pass?Jeramiah 30:7 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

Edited to add this link:http://members.aol.com/chursey/prewrath.htm"The Case for the Pre Wrath Rapture"

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Re:, on: 2006/2/22 16:23I've been posting on this thread since page one.

Me again came back on page 5.

Now, I've asked simple questions to two folks on here and don't get answers.It's usless to go on discussing something, that someone brings up, but won't come back and discuss or another doesn'tanswer questions but plows on with their posts.

I'll leave the best site I know of ~ http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/index.html#posttrib

Art Katz has some good articles too, just for another of many.

But, as God Word says, "People believe what they 'want' to believe" or what their 'favorite' teacher teaches them.

It appears that's how it is.

HW believes in Preterism.

Others believe what they've been taught.

God's Word says what it says, and I've tried from page 1 to Post what God's Word says.

I was 100% alone for 15 years with my belief until I read my first book on this subject in 2000 and then came on the Internet in 2002.... so I did not get this teaching from 'man'.

Because of a statement by Keith Green around 1985, I sat at my kitchen table and prayed, asking The Lord to show me,out of His Word only, when we are going to be resurrected ? I believed Pre-Trib for 9 years at that time.

I hand wrote every Scripture verse, or whole chtp.s Etc, from O.T. to New, that had anything remotely to do with the end times.

At the end, Not One Verse Contradicted another verse. Needless to say, I was quite set back and shocked.

I have tons of pages now, and haven't missed one verse in these 21 years of reading, to find out the answer.

I'll leave this with just these, as we are accountable to every Word of His that we hear ....

JUST 4 verses from JUST ONE Chapter of JESUS' Words .....

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

All His Best.Annie

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Re: - posted by Logic, on: 2006/2/22 18:28MeAgain wrote:Quote:-------------------------I'll leave the best site I know of ~ http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/index.html#posttrib

All His Best.Annie-------------------------

I know that you are a post-tribber, I have a question, do you say that His second comeing is with the Rapture as in He comes down in the cloudes as we are raptured to gether with Him at the Battle of Armagedon?

Please take a look here: http://members.aol.com/chursey/prewrath.htm

May I ask you to read this linked site carefully thruogh?Then tell me what you think, Please.

Quote:-------------------------Now, I've asked simple questions to two folks on here and don't get answers.-------------------------

OK, I'll show some verses that you bring up then I will bring mine that relates to yours.

Quote:-------------------------Mat 13:39 "The enemy who sowed them is the Devil; the harvest is the end of the world Mat 13:40 Therefore as the darnel are gathered and burned in the fire, so it shall be in the end of this world Mat 13:49 So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just"-------------------------This coinsides with:Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 4:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Quote:-------------------------Mat 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.-------------------------

This coinsides with:Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; :13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Quote:-------------------------John 6:39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the LAST DAY.-------------------------

The word day in greek can mean time in general, i.e. back in my day. look it up you'll see :-)

Quote:-------------------------Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.-------------------------

This coinsides with: Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clea

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n.This is his second comeing which cannot be confused with the rapture, as There are only two comeings, His Earthly life and The comeing with the saints. He comes with the saint and does not come down then raptures them. Notice we come with Him.

Re:, on: 2006/2/22 18:44My friend Logic,

I'll take it a step further into what I believe.

I did not leave that link there just for you ... and I need to stress something very very much more ,,,

I don't fully agree even with the link that I gave except that it is one of the more Acedemic sites out there, against Preand Preterism.

Having said all of that .... if you want to get into Greek, that I'd be more than happy to do but as far as you changing mymind from "what is Written" with websites etc., no, you will not ever change my mind from "what is written".

I can be a Post-Trib-No-Wrath believer as I see it, the Wrath is The Vials and I do believe we are resurrected at thesame time the Lord is "descending" as it is written and we are "caught up with Him in the AIR" and the vials of His wrathare poured out as we are in the air and about to return "with" the Lord to finish the job, so to speak.

The Wrath is the Vials,Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having theseven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the sevenangels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth forever and ever. Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice outof the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

AFTER the 7th Trump,Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, themystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. When we are resurrected as He Comes and the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdom of our God ... And thereis only ONE Resurrection of the Just and the judgment of the unjust who are alive and remain till He comes Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousandyears, Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive thenations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of themthat were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neitherhis image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ athousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I'll have to come back after KP to post more.

His Love.Annie

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Re:, on: 2006/2/22 22:57Hi Brother Logic, Finally getting back to reply to the post you wrote to me on the end of the previous page.

The only way I could see to do this was to put my replies here in bold print.

It looks a lot longer than it is, if you just look at the bold printed answers.

Quote:-------------------------Logic wrote:MeAgain wrote:Quote:-------------------------I'll leave the best site I know of ~ (http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/index.html#posttrib) Last Trumpet

All His Best.Annie-------------------------

I know that you are a post-tribber, I have a question, do you say that His second comeing is with the Rapture as in He comes down in the cloudes as we are raptured to gether with Him at the Battle of Armagedon?

I do not believe in using that NON-Biblical word "Rapture" because "that" word came into existance only in order to un-do the verses givenabove Rev. 20:4-6 .......... Our "being raised and changed" is called the Resurrection through-out the Bible.

You ask if "I say" we are "gathered" {you call it "raptured"} at His coming in the clouds to take part in the Battle ... I don't say it ... God's Word says that is the case. Looking at Just One chpt. you used ... Matt 13 ... could show that we are gathered at the same time of the Judgment.

All of this is "SEEN" by the inhabitants of the earth. "And 'every' eye shall see Him.",,,, As they "gather" to make war with Him and His Army. How else would they know to "gather" and have the "time to" gather, unless they had seen us for a while coming or seen us with Him in order to have the time to gather. How would they have time to gather against "us" unless they "see" .... Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and thekings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Please take a look here: http://members.aol.com/chursey/prewrath.htm

May I ask you to read this linked site carefully thruogh?Then tell me what you think, Please.

I did look at your Site, the first time you posted it. I wouldn't Not look at your link. Did you look at this whole thread yet ?

I have books and books by Pre-Wrath writers ... and you and I are not that far seperated ... but I'd rather we critiqued each other's posts thencritique other's websites. Do you see why ? Because your website guy says all Post-Trib people have us going through the Wrath and Godsays THREE TIMES that the "Wrath is the vials".

Now the problem we have is one that can only be "proved" by cross-referencing from the ENTIRE Bible, and that is ... do the trumpets overlap the seals and the vials. And if so where ? And where they don't "why" ?

The Seals do not overlap the Trumpets,,, but the seventh seal 'brings out' the Seven Angels with the seven trumpets ...Rev 8:1 & 2 ~ And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Quote:-------------------------Now, I've asked simple questions to two folks on here and don't get answers.-------------------------

OK, I'll show some verses that you bring up then I will bring mine that relates to yours.

Quote:-------------------------Mat 13:39 "The enemy who sowed them is the Devil; the harvest is the end of the world Mat 13:40 Therefore as the darnel are gathered and burned in the fire, so it shall be in the end of this world Mat 13:49 So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just"-------------------------This coinsides with:Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

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:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is comefor thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 4:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Quote:-------------------------Yes, I agree with you here, and it's not so much that 'I' agree, but any cross-referenced Bible or the such, will cross-reference Matt. 13s verses with those of Rev. 14. This "is" the reward of the just and judgment of the unjust all in ONE MOVE.... referenced as "That Day" or "The Day of the Lord" or "The day of our Lord Jesus Christ", etc. etc. from O.T. to New,,,, no matter where you look, it ALL happens "That Day". The rewards are with Him .... both for the just and the unjust .... everywhere you look, through-out the entire Bible.

Mat 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.-------------------------

This coinsides with:Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; :13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

No problem with cross-references these two neither. But ... we must continue on to the next verses of Matthew 24:30-31 and they are those you cross-referenced with Rev. 14 and as you said earlier and we both know .... The Revelation is not given in linear order and in some places, repeats itself. In this case ...Mat 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In this case ... Matt 13, these vs.s of Matt 24 and Rev. 14 are views of the same event, given in Rev 20.

Quote:-------------------------John 6:39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the LAST DAY.-------------------------

The word day in greek can mean time in general, i.e. back in my day. look it up you'll see :-)

You cannot use the Greek to exegete a sentence or the meaning of a sentence by just defining One word. You must look at the grammar of the whole sentence ... here we have to look at "AT THE LAST DAY" {εν τη εσχατη ημερα}. Even Martha knew what this statement meant, being a Jew, {John11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Same Greek expression, used only in John.} Being Jews, they all knew of the resurrection and "when" it would be, from their Prophets ... except of course the Sadducees who denied the Resurrection. The last verse of Daniel is just one place we see the end of the end days. The end is the end, which is the end of the end days. Daniel will rise with the dead in Christ first and then we which are alive and remain{Greek=survive}, will "meet" them in the air. The deadreceive their Glorified bodies as they "return" to earth "with" The Lord" and we "rise" to meet them, is what is written.

Quote:-------------------------Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.-------------------------

This coinsides with: Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.This is his second comeing which cannot be confused with the rapture, as There are only two comeings, His Earthly life and The comeing with the saints. He comes with the saint and does not come down then raptures them. Notice we come with Him.-------------------------

Yes, this "is the second coming", and "is" when those who are dead in Christ come "with" the Lord and we "meet" them 'together in the air'. 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain{survive} shall be caught up "together with them" in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air {as He Descends from Heaven with a Shout and the voice of the archangel and The Trump of God ... Compare Rev 10:7 with 1Th 4:16}: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is NO RAPTURE .... just The "FIRST RESURRECTION". Rev. 20:4-6

HA. I'm not yelling, believe me.

My "empathics" are not anger or yelling or like that ... they're just my pip-squeak emphatics.

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Maybe we're closing a gap here ? We're not 'that' far apart in many ways.Back to you brother.His Love and God Bless you.Annie

Re: ?, on: 2006/2/22 23:11 :-? Sitting here trying to figure out why the page got so fat ... wide I mean.

Guess I'm not very techie.

Does anyone see what I did wrong that made it so wide ?

Re: - posted by crsschk (), on: 2006/2/22 23:59Hi Annie,

Quote:-------------------------Sitting here trying to figure out why the page got so fat ... wide I mean.

Guess I'm not very techie.

Does anyone see what I did wrong that made it so wide ?-------------------------

Good challenge there...Took a few to figure it out, but it was the link with "The Last Trumpet", down a page or two. I took the liberty to "change" it into that shortened version. Sometimes the carry over from long links can cause the page to go "wide". Generally an excess of for instance ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ that continue and wrap to second lines will cause the same result.

In general, to do a link with a title if you click on the "URL" tab and paste in the link a second box will come up and you can "name" it a cooresponding title or refrence. Once you hit "OK" it will show up on the bottom of the box where you are typing and from there you can cut and paste it into place.

Just a heads up for anybody happening upon this.

Re:, on: 2006/2/23 0:33A very WELCOMED HEADS UP.

Wow, thanks Mike. I pushed the little "quote" botton by the smilies here at the bottom, to get the post I wanted quoted and that link was in there.

Thank you VERY MUCH. I felt so stupid and self-conscious leaving it like that ... almost called myself a chump again, but than Diane would have come after me. Ha

Ah I see, said the blind woman. 8-)

Thanks Mike. I will surely watch it now.

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Re: - posted by Logic, on: 2006/2/23 17:56MeAgain wrote:Quote:-------------------------

Hi Brother Logic, Finally getting back to reply to the post you wrote to me on the end of the previous page.

The only way I could see to do this was to put my replies here in bold print.

It looks a lot longer than it is, if you just look at the bold printed answers.

Quote:-------------------------I do not believe in using that NON-Biblical word "Rapture" because "that" word came into existance only in order to un-do the verses given above Rev. 20:4-6 .......... Our "being raised and changed" is called the Resurrection through-out the Bible. -------------------------

OK, I agree, I will use the word that we get the word rapture from in 1thes.4:17: ἁρπαγησόμεθα from the root of harpadzo {har-pad'-zo} to be being snached up. I will use the harpadzo.

Quote:-------------------------You ask if "I say" we are "gathered" {you call it "raptured"} at His coming in the clouds to take part in the Battle ... I don't say it ... God's Word says that is the case. Looking at Just One chpt. you used ... Matt 13 ... could show that we are gathered at the same timeof the Judgment.------------------------- Gods word sais that we Followed Him in Rev.19:14 and in 1thes 4:17 we are harpadzoed together with them who are dead in Christ, which shall rise first. v16You used that verse Matt 13, not me. I copeid it from on of your previous posts.

Quote:-------------------------All of this is "SEEN" by the inhabitants of the earth. "And 'every' eye shall see Him.",,,, As they "gather" to make war with Him and His Army. How else would they know to "gather" and have the "time to" gather, unless they had seen us for a while coming or seen us with Him in order to have the time to gather. How would they have time to gather against "us" unless they "see" .... Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and thekings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.-------------------------

They don't gather because they "seen us with Him" as you say. Rev 19:19 is Gods purpose and not the armies. You know that man always have other purposes for things instead of Gods' purposes. They come together for there own reasons in there own minds but God has a diferent purpose for that comeing together.Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.Rev 16:16 And it gathered(συνήγαγεν) them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." They are only gathered together and probly think that they are makeing that choice on there own.

They are comeing together for war against Israel first, then Jesus comes down before they even start. That is when they all join in unity to fight againstHIM.

Quote:-------------------------I have books and books by Pre-Wrath writers ... and you and I are not that far seperated ... but I'd rather we critiqued each other's posts then critique other's websites.-------------------------Me to.

Quote:-------------------------Now the problem we have is one that can only be "proved" by cross-referencing from the ENTIRE Bible, and that is ... do the trumpets overlap the seals and the vials. And if so where ? And where they don't "why"?-------------------------

I say they overlap because in the sixth trumpet

Rev.9:14 "Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates."

relates to: Rev 16:12 "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared." so the sixth trump. angle is for a specific time Rev. 9:15 "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared

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for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year,(for this purpose->) for to slay the third part of men."ANDIn the Seventh trumpet we see Rev. 11:19 "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." The Seventh Bowl we see in Rev. 16:18 "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.which is also in the Seventh Seal, Rev. 8:5 "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

Quote:-------------------------...Rev 8:1 & 2 ~ And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.-------------------------

That "silence in heaven about the space of half an hour" is actualy 1/2 a season(3.5 yeas of the whole season of the 7 year tribulation) becaus He uses the term hour for the term season also in these verses, see vv.s Rev. 3:10, Rev. 17:12, Rev. 18:10, Rev. 18:17, Rev. 18:19.

This 1/2 a season is spoken of for our understanding of a division of events. I see the Harpadzo in Rev. 7:9-17, then there is silence because of awe &reverance for what is about to happen, in other words God's wrath. The trumpets are also part of Gods' wrath along with the vials. Then you, also, actualy read when there is noise again in Heaven at the end in Rev. 11:15.

And you know that is the end because of Rev. 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Also by the seventh trump you haven't seen any vials yet, so, you know that these trumpets and vials do overlap.The vials are in the third woe inside of the sixth and seventh trump.

Quote:-------------------------Yes, I agree with you here, and it's not so much that 'I' agree, but any cross-referenced Bible or the such, will cross-reference Matt. 13s verses with those of Rev. 14. This "is" the reward of the just and judgment of the unjust all in ONE MOVE.... referenced as "That Day" or "The Day of the Lord" or "The day of our Lord Jesus Christ", etc. etc. from O.T. to New,,,, no matter where you look, it ALL happens "That Day". The rewards are with Him .... both for the just and the unjust .... everywhere you look, through-out the entire Bible.-------------------------

I have a question: If Rev.14:17-20 is the judgment of the unjust, How are there still 7 seals left to go. Would you agree that these verses of the vials are an analogy? If that, then v.14-16 is also an analogy for the Harpadzo.

Look in Rev.14:7 "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour(season) of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

If His wrath is to come then we should already be up, but it says in afew verses further that we are being reaped.

Think about this If Rev. 14:17-20 relates to the vials which are after the analogy of His winepress, the analogy of the wheat could be of the 144000.

I wrote a good post on the 144000 here: http://www.ucfm2.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11626It is my own writeng so please read it, it is an eazy read and only takes afew minutes.

Quote:-------------------------No problem with cross-references these two neither. But ... we must continue on to the next verses of Matthew 24:30-31 and they are those you cross-referenced with Rev. 14 and as you said earlier and we both know .... The Revelation is not given in linear orderand in some places, repeats itself. In this case ...Mat 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.-------------------------

this verse relates to Rev. 7:1 that in turn relates to the 144000, and if you have read what I wrot in that link, you would know that I found that 144000 isthe whole "Israel of God" that gets Harpadzoed in v.9-17. and you notice a great sound of a trumpet when the Trumpets are not yet sounded.

In this case ... Matt 13, these vs.s of Matt 24 and Rev. 14 are views of the same event, given in Rev 20.-------------------------

Yes, but not and the total end of it all.

Quote:-------------------------You cannot use the Greek to exegete a sentence or the meaning of a sentence by just defining One word. You must look a

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t the grammar of the whole sentence ... here we have to look at "AT THE LAST DAY" {εν τη εσχατη ημερα}. Even Martha knew what this statement meant, being a Jew, {John11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Same Greek expression, used only in John.} Being Jews, they all knew of the resurrection and "when" it would be, from their Prophets ... except of course the Sadducees who denied the Resurrection. The last verse of Daniel is just one place we see the end of the end days. The end is the end, which is the end of the end days. Daniel will rise with the dead in Christ first and then we which are alive and remain{Greek=survive}, will "meet" them in the air. The deadreceive their Glorified bodies as they "return" to earth "with" The Lord" and we "rise" to meet them, is what is written.-------------------------

This is the thing that bumps our heads :-? You know what I think? I actualy think we are so close to each other on this topic but only the slightest miniute distance of when the Harpadzo happens.

I see the Battle of Armageddon; when we(the armies which were in heaven Rev 19:14) follow him upon white horses(because we are already there with Him): there is more time between that and the gathering together with the dead in Christ to meet the dead who are already in the clouds(because they where harpadzoed first 1Th 4:16) and allo of us(dead and live) meet the Lord in the air.

and you, who see the dead in Christ and us who are alive to be caught up together in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air who is on a white horse; who is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Quote:-------------------------Yes, this "is the second coming", and "is" when those who are dead in Christ come "with" the Lord and we "meet" them 'together in the air'. 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain{survive} shall be caught up "together with them" in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air {as He Descends from Heaven with a Shout and the voice of the archangel and The Trump of God ... Compare Rev 10:7 with 1Th 4:16}: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is NO RAPTURE .... just The "FIRST RESURRECTION". Rev. 20:4-6-------------------------

This is where I see your problem. The "FIRST RESURRECTION" Notice the bold and spacificely the underlined words,

Rev. 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The first resurrection is for only those who actualy died as a witnes bcause those who had been harpadzoed and who were alive met Him in the air would not have had a resurection. we will only have been changed;

1Corinth. 15:51,52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, :52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And

The daed who are harpadzoed might not have been beheaded and would naver had to be chalenged to worshipp the beast or his image and to take the mark.

So, the first resurrection has to be diferent from the harpadzo.

Quote:-------------------------HA. I'm not yelling, believe me.

My "empathics" are not anger or yelling or like that ... they're just my pip-squeak emphatics.

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Maybe we're closing a gap here ? We're not 'that' far apart in many ways.Back to you brother.His Love and God Bless you.Annie-------------------------

I know you aren't yelling & I was never upset. I do think we are closing a gap here and I agree that we aren't far apart in many ways.Back to you sister

PSyou chaleng me and are actualy makeing me look harder it this and confiming my thoughts.

When I set out to study revelations, God told me to study with no preconceived ideas on anything but learn as I go. I am still learning.

Re: Last Days Doctrine, on: 2006/2/23 18:18Hia Logic, What's with being afraid to use the correct term, "resurrection" ?

I know why most folks are afraid of using the proper term that was used every where through-out the Bible, in the sense of the dead being raised, and then in the New, with those who are alive and survive being raised also... because they have to have two resurrections and they know the Bible doesn't support that theory.

Well, I'm not posting all of this to "confirm you in your set beliefs".

That would be a total waste of both of our time.Or at least a waste of mine.

We both know where we stand now, so let's leave it there.

You have two resurrections and that closes it for me. Not closes you from me, but just going on with this discussion is senseless.

You and I have to many other things we 'can' agree on, to go on with the timing of the resurrection, so if it's not offensiveto you if we end it here ... I'd enjoy reading your posts on other threads. Where we agree brings us closer.

God Bless brother and we'll just see each other when it happens ... how's that :-) .Thanks friend.Annie

Re: Last Days Doctrine, on: 2006/2/23 18:27Hey, ya know what I wanted to add ...

Although I think it is essential to a Christian to be ready to go through persecution and all heck breaking lose, as it has inmany other nations as we speak, I won't let this subject turn me away from someone I respect.

I love Watchman Nee, but from what I recall, he seemed to have FIVE raptures. I still love that guy and many other missionaries, Pastors, etc. that are friends to me, and they are not of my persuasion neither.

I think it's just that we need to be prepared for stuff to happen as Corrie Ten Boon said in her letter some pages back on this thread.

Thanks.

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Re: - posted by Logic, on: 2006/2/23 18:56MeAgain wrote:Quote:-------------------------

Hia Logic, What's with being afraid to use the correct term, reserection?

I know why most folks are afraid of using the proper term that was used every where through-out the Bible, in the sense of the dead being raised, and then in the New, with those who are alive and survive being raised also... because they have to have two resurrections and they know the Bible doesn'tsupport that theory.

You and I have to many other things we 'can' agree on, to go on with the timing of the resurrection, so if it's not offensive to you if we end it here ... I'd enjoy reading your posts on other threads. Where we agree brings us closer.

God Bless brother and we'll just see each other when it happens ... how's that :-) .Thanks friend.Annie-------------------------

Because the harpadzo isn't a reserection, it is a being snached away and those who are alive when that happens is not a reserection. It is only being changed, as I said.

Awe shucks, I was hopeing your responses, because I was still haveing fun. If I am wrong in any of my responces, can you correct me? :-)

Re:, on: 2006/2/23 20:25Hi Logic, most of what you posted last I cringed at, and I know when I'm being bated.You don't want me to "correct you", because you admitted that you are "confirming" your held beliefs through our talks. So no, I won't correct my friend.

Love you lots though. :-) Always.

Annie

Just found this - posted by Logic, on: 2006/3/8 16:11Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation,even tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed withwhite robes, and in their hands palm branches.

Reference. Lev 23:40,42 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days. :41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. :42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:

This is portraying the feast of booths which confirms the rapture at this time.Or if you don't like that word, it is the being caught 1Th 4:17

Re: Last Days Doctrine - posted by MSeaman (), on: 2006/3/8 16:58I am a member of an Assembly of God church. Our pastor holds to a pre-Tribulation Rapture, but I am not convinced of this. there are just some things that I cannot get together in my mind about it. I appreciate this topic because it has givenme a lot more input on the subject.

Thanks to all of you. :-)

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Re:, on: 2006/3/8 20:41Hia MSeaman, my husband and I met at an AoG Bible College and he was a AoG Pastor too ... but in 85 the Lord had me to sit down with 'just' the Bible and out came all that GrannieAnnie/MeAgain/me posted on here.

But they told us back in 79 at the College, that they didn't stand firm on pre-trib because they said, many of their Churches in the West were of other persuasions, so we were allowed to believe otherwise.

God BLESS.Annie

Re: Just found this - posted by GaryE (), on: 2006/3/9 0:37

{Quote} Logic

Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.

Reference. Lev 23:40,42 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days. :41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. :42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:

This is portraying the feast of booths which confirms the rapture at this time.Or if you don't like that word, it is the being caught 1Th 4:17.................................................

Perhaps this first day represents the rapture. You can also see the figure of Christ entering the city. It is definitely and interesting group of scripture when you consider types.

I just took a look and haven't read the thread. I'm not interested in debating it either since I don't think the Lord wants me to debate and I'm not that good at debating anyway. I could be right and proven wrong by a good debater. :-)

Re: Preterism, on: 2007/6/26 15:27I see preterism being addressed on some threads and thought that it may need to be looked at.

I don't know how far it will go as far as discussion, or how much I'd like to add besides this link below and ask 'that the tiny links at the very bottom of this Site's page be looked at', before any discussion evolves, so that we're being fair to oneanother and knowing both sides of the issue.

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/debate3.html

For new folks, most of the "Anonymous" posts on this present thread are still me, with my other sign on nickname, that I 'thought' I needed to have when I got a new email address and ISP account. Everyone knew who I was.Now I know that it was not - is not, necessary to open a new account if you change providers or come back on line after being off for a while.

Thank you anyhow - I didn't know where else to post anything on Preterism and also, due to my Settings, cannot start a new Thread.Maybe it was best for Last Days Doctrine to all be condensed on one thread after all, because all views have been here anyway. No sense in 40 more right now.

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To those who Long for and Love His Coming Again in Glory. LOVE!

Re: - posted by lovegrace, on: 2007/6/26 17:34

Quote:-------------------------MSeaman wrote:I am a member of an Assembly of God church. Our pastor holds to a pre-Tribulation Rapture, but I am not convinced of this. there are just some thingsthat I cannot get together in my mind about it. -------------------------

I'm with you on that.

Re: Just found this - posted by psalm1, on: 2007/6/26 23:02 Logic,Thank you for that. I had read that but never connected the 2! duhhhhh. ...David

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