1 S UPERIOR COURT O F CALI FORN IA

2 I N AND FOR THE COUNTY O F SACRAMENTO

3 - - -oOo- - -

4 I n r e the Mat t e r o f :

5 APRIL BERGER ,

6 P e t i t ione r ,

7 vs

8 ROBERT SAUNDERS ,

9 Respondent .

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) ) )

1 0 ____________________________ )

CAS E NO . 0 6 FL0 4 4 1 5

DEPARTMENT 1 2 1

0\ f? .:.\'\ l ! 21 �ll

�i \.:.:... .. ::Y U )J

1 1 RE PORTER ' S TRANSCRI PT OF PROCEE D I NGS

1 2 BE FORE THE HONORABLE THOMAS M . CEC I L , JU DGE THEREOF .

1 3 MAY 8 , 2 0 0 9

1 4 - - - ooo- - -

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1 7 For the Pet i t ione r :

AP PEARANCES

1 8 LAW OFFICE OF RICHARD J . SOKOL 7 8 0 1 Fo l s om Boul evard . , # 1 0 6

1 9 Sacrament o , C a l i forn i a 9 5 8 2 6 B Y : Rich a rd J . S o ko l

2 0

2 1 For the Respondent :

2 2 ROBERT SAUN DERS , I n P ropr i a P e r sona

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2 8 Reported By :

---oOo- - -

ANGELA L . WESTON , CSR No . 11658

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CHRONOLOGI CAL I NDEX

-- - ooo - - -

MAY 8 , 2 0 0 9

W I TN E S S E S CALLED BY THE PET I T I ONER :

VAN BEVEREN , ELA INE:

D i r e ct e xami na t i on by Mr . S o ko l C ro s s - exami na t i on b y t h e Respondent Redi r e ct e xamination by M r . S o ko l

BERGE R , APR I L :

D i rect exami na t i on b y M r . S o ko l C ro s s - examinat i on by t h e Respondent Redi rect examinat i on by M r . S o ko l Recr o s s -examinat i on b y t he Respondent

- - - ooo - - -

Page No . :

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3 9 53 9 4 9 7

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS----------�

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SACRAMENTO , CALI FORN I A

Apri l 8 , 2 0 0 9 , MORN I NG S E S S I ON

- - - ooo - - -

Proceedings i n t h e M a t t e r o f BERGER v . SAUNDERS ,

5 Case No . 0 6 FL 0 4 4 1 5 , came on regu l a r l y t h i s day before the

6 Honorable THOMAS M . CEC I L , Judge o f the Supe r i o r Court o f

7 Ca l i forni a , f o r t he County o f S a crament o , Department 1 2 1

8 thereof .

9 The Pet i t i oner , APRIL BERGER , was repr e s ented by

1 0 RI CHARD SOKOL , Att orney a t Law .

1 1 The Respondent , ROBERT SAUNDERS , wa s rep r e s ented

1 2 by h ims e l f , I n P r op r i a Per s ona .

1 3 The f o l l owing proceedings were then had, t o wit :

1 4 - - - ooo - - -

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THE COURT : Al l r i ght , t h i s i s case numb e r

0 6 FL 0 4 4 1 5. Ap r i l Berger i s pre s ent with coun s e l , Mr . S o ko l ,

and Robert S aunde r s i s here a s we l l . Let me j us t go through

a coup l e o f ba s i c s here ; back on October 1 o f ' 0 8 I s i gned a

1 9 t emporary r e s t ra ining o rder b a s ed upon the de c l a rat i on s that

2 0 were s ubmi t t ed with t he app l i ca t i on and the app l icat i on

2 1 i t s e l f , and cont r a r y to leaving i t i n t h i s Depa r tment , I

2 2 cont i nued t h e matt e r for i t s f i r s t not i ced hear ing t o

2 3 October 1 5t h , 2 0 0 8 i n Department 1 2 3 , and I undoubtedly did

2 4 that due t o the fact t hat t h i s case wa s moving f o rwa rd in

2 5 1 2 3 w i t h Judge B a l onon and had active l i t igat ion going . I t

2 6 appe a r s that s ince t hat t ime Judge Burge r - P l avan cont i nued

2 7 the r e s t r a ining o rder i n p l a ce unt i l November 1 7 th ; Judge

2 8 Burge r - P l avan cont i nued i t i n p l a ce on November 1 7 th unt i l

SACRAMENTO OFFI C I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------- 1

1 January 1 2 t h o f t h i s yea r ; on Janua r y 1 2 t h it was cont inued

2 in p l ace unt i l March 9 t h b y Judge U l lman ; and on March 9 t h

3 i t was s e t f o r t r i a l today b y Judge Gary .

4 So I have the o r i ginal app l i ca t i on f o r the r e s t raining

5 orde r ; I have a s upplemental dec l a r a t i on fi led on

6 October 1 4 t h o f ' 0 8 by M r . S o ko l on beha l f o f h i s c l i en t ;

7 and I have an answer that wa s f i l ed by Mr . S aunde r s on

8 October 1 4 th o f ' 0 8 . Mr . Saunde r s , do you have the

9 supp l ementa l dec l a ra t i on t ha t was f i l e d by Mr . S o ko l ?

1 0 THE RES PONDENT : Not with me .

1 1 THE COURT : But you got i t ?

1 2 THE RES PONDENT : I b e l i eve s o .

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THE COURT : And , Mr . S o ko l , you rece ived a copy o f

t h e a n s w e r that was f i led on October 1 5t h ?

MR . SOKOL : Y e s .

THE COURT : My unde r s t anding i s that there i s a

1 7 crimi n a l cha rge pending ; Mr . S aunde r s , i s that correct ?

1 8 THE RES PONDENT : M i s demeanor , um-hmm .

1 9 THE COURT : Cr ime . Don ' t care whether i t ' s a

2 0 felon y o r mi s demeanor , i t ' s s t i l l a c r ime . And

2 1 notwi t h s t anding that charge pending , you w i s h t o go forward

2 2 toda y ; i s t hat co rrect ?

2 3 THE RES PONDENT : Abs o l ut e l y .

2 4 THE COURT : Okay .

2 5 THE RES PONDENT : The j udge had no aut h o r i t y t o do

2 6 what he d i d , Your Honor .

2 7 THE COURT : We l l , whateve r , not t h e i s s ue . The

2 8 i s sue lS you have a c r iminal charge pending . The i s sue i s

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1 that perhaps t he event s which surround t hat part i cu l a r

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crimina l cha rge may have s ome impact on thi s particular

hearing , this part i cu l a r orde r . The i s s ue that I ' m r a i s ing

i s your r ight not t o incrimi n a t e your s e l f , and I ' m h e reby

5 advi s ing you that i f in fact t e s t imony i s e l i ci t ed and you

6 t e st i fy w i t h regard t o t he event s t hat occurred on that

7 part icular dat e , those particular a spect s o f your t e s t imony

8 may come back t o haunt you in your criminal t r i a l , i f you

9 have one . S o I ' m advi s ing you o f your con s t i t ut i ona l r ight

1 0 t o rema i n s i lent a s t o those event s . That may h amper your

1 1 abi l i t y t o de fend yours e l f aga i n s t thi s part i cu l a r dome s t i c

1 2 vi o l ence r e s t r a i n ing order . Notw i t h s tanding a l l o f that ,

1 3 you w i s h t o go f o rward?

1 4 THE RES PONDENT : Ye s , Your Honor .

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THE COURT : Mr . S o ko l , f rom your s i de a s the

moving part y , what witne s s e s do you have ?

MR . SOKOL : I have my c l ient , Apr i l Berge r , and

the chi ldren ' s a t t o rne y , who wa s pre sent for s ome o f thi s ,

who i s pres ent in Court .

THE COURT: And , Mr . Saunde r s , your witne s s e s are

2 1 whom?

2 2 THE RES PONDENT : Rut h S aunde r s , Fa i t h Saunde r s ,

2 3 St even Saunde r s , Danny Ave l a r o r Jo s e Dan i e l Ave l a r .

2 4 THE COURT : And your s el f .

2 5 THE RES PONDENT : Ye s .

2 6 MR . SOKOL : Move to have a l l witne s s e s excluded .

2 7 THE COURT : Al l witne s s e s that are pre sent in the

28 court room a r e excluded t o the hal lway . As you are needed

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1 you w i l l be ca l l ed in b y the ba i l i f f .

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(Wh er eupon a l l potent i a l witne s s e s exited the courtroom . )

THE COURT : I ' m j us t curious , a l l the peop l e that

5 you name d , Mr . S aunde r s .

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THE RES PONDENT : Ye s .

THE COURT : The i r purp o s e i n t e s t i fying i s what ?

THE RES PONDENT : Evidence .

THE COURT : Got t o do bett e r than that o r they

10 won ' t be te s t i f ying .

1 1 THE RES PONDENT : O ka y , we l l , in s ome c a s e s they

12 were actua l l y on the s cene o f s ome s ituations .

1 3 THE COURT : Wel l , l e t me be c l e a r , Mr . S o ko l i s

1 4 go ing t o be l imit ed t o the even t s and the incident s that are

1 5 l i sted i n h i s app l i ca t i on .

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THE RES PONDENT : Correct .

THE COURT : As oppo sed t o s ome vague s e r i e s o f

18 things that I don ' t know about that a ren't in t h i s document .

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THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .

THE COURT : Or event s t hat t o o k p lace a ft e r t he

2 1 restraining o rder was s e rved on you , whi ch o f cou r s e can ' t

2 2 be i n the app l i ca t i on .

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THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .

THE COURT : S o unl e s s t h o s e f o l ks h ave s omething

2 5 to do w i t h the incident s that are in t h i s report , I ' m not

2 6 go ing t o be hea r ing evidence about them, which will ma ke

2 7 the i r t e s t imony s omewhat unnece s s ary . But we ' l l get there

28 when we get there .

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THE RES PONDENT : They are pertinent t o the

r e s t r a ining o rder and facts and actual s ituation s .

THE COURT : We l l , you can s a y t ha t a l l you want -­

THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .

THE COURT : - - but you s t i l l have t o convince me

when i t come s t ime to ca l l t hem .

THE RES PONDENT : O f cou r s e .

THE COURT : Mr . S o ko l .

MR . S OKOL : Ye s , Your Honor . I would l i ke t o

ma ke -- a s k f o r s ome j ud i c i a l not ice o f certain thing s , i f I

coul d .

THE COURT : And they a r e ?

MR . SOKOL : Fi r s t o f a l l , the court orde r i s s ued

by Judge Bal onon on 9 - 2 4 o f ' 0 8 for Mr . S aunde r s t o have a

comp l ete p s ychol ogi c a l eva lua t i on . S econd o f a l l , t h e

mot i on f i l e d by Mr . S aunder s on 4 - 2 2 for a h e a r i ng on

5 - 1 8 - 0 9 in whi ch he refuses to undergo p s ycho l ogi c a l

eva l uat i on b e c a u s e i t i s a p s eudo s c i ence , de s p i t e seve r a l

orde r s . T h i rd , t he court order i s sued b y Judge B a l onon on

9 - 2 4 - 0 8 t hat M r . Saunde r s have l eve l -three s upe rvi sed v i s i t s

o n l y w i t h the two chi ldren , two t ime s a wee k , f o u r hou r s a t

a t ime . And l a s t l y , t h e findings a n d o rders o f Judge Gary

i s s ued on 3 - 9 - 0 9 that Mr . Saunde r s was in direct contempt ,

that he i s unstable at present , that further vi s i t s w i t h the

chi ldren woul d be det r imenta l t o them, t hat h e refused the

court o rder t o l eave the court , t ha t h e a s s au l t e d the

ba i l i f f i n open court and wa s a r re s t ed and s ent to j a i l .

THE RES PONDENT : Obj ect ion , Your Hono r . Much o f

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------- 5

·,....._..,·

1 Mr . - - what Mr . Sokol s a i d i s facts not in evidence , and

2 s ome o f what c ame out o f that f i rs t dat e , S ept ember 2 4 t h ,

3 2 0 0 8 , c ame f rom a previous incident in the o f f i c e o f -- Law

4 O f f i c e o f E l a ine Van Beveren , who phys i ca l l y a s s au l t ed one

5 o f my daught e r s and mys e l f , and attempted t o a s sault my

6 other daughte r , and t he next day we went to Court and s he

7 she l ied . And Judge B a l onon , without loo king at any

8 evidence , and violat ing Canon 3 0 ( 2 ) , went ahead and j us t

9 b e l i eved what she s a i d , rather t han ca l l for an

10 inve s t i ga t i on or look into t he mat t e r any furthe r .

1 1 THE COURT : The reque s t for j udici a l not i ce i s

1 2 t a ken unde r s ubmi s s ion unt i l I can det ermine whether it ' s

1 3 relevant . The obj ect ion s are noted , mos t o f which a r e not

1 4 proper obj ect ions t o a reque s t for j ud i c i a l not i ce . I know

1 5 that they a r e not i n evidence , that i s why he i s a s king for

1 6 j udi c i a l not i c e o f court document s .

1 7 Mr . S o ko l , who i s your f i r s t witne s s ?

1 8 MR . SOKOL : E laine Van Beveren , t he ch i l dren ' s

1 9 attorne y .

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THE

THE

THE

THE

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COURT :

WITNESS :

COURT :

W I TNES S :

CLERK :

We l come .

I ' ve never been up here , Your Honor .

I t ' s about t ime .

Right .

Would you p l e a s e rai s e your r i ght

2 5 hand . Do you s o l emnl y state t hat t he t e s t imony you are

2 6 about t o g i ve in the cause now pending be fore t h i s Court

2 7 sha l l b e the t ruth , the who l e t ruth , and nothing but the

2 8 t rut h ?

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record .

THE W I TNESS : I do .

THE CLERK : P l e a s e state your ful l name for t he

THE W I TNESS : E la ine Van Beveren .

THE COURT : Mr . Sokol , your witne s s .

ELAINE VAN BEVEREN ,

cal led a s a witne s s on behal f o f the Pet i t i one r , a f t e r f i r s t

being dul y sworn , t e s t i f ied a s f o l l ow s :

D I RECT EXAMINAT I ON BY MR . SOKOL :

Q . Ms . Van Beveren , are you an attorney l i ce n s ed t o

pract ice l aw i n t he State o f Ca l i forni a ?

A . Ye s , I am .

Q . Were you appointed a s the attorney for the two chi l dren

in the matt e r be fore the Court r i ght now ?

A . Ye s , I was .

Q . And were you p re s ent w i t h the chi l dren on

Sept embe r 2 3 r d , ' 0 8 , the evening before the 9 - 2 4 - 0 8 hearing

concerning the r e s t raining order against Mr . Saunder s ?

A . Ye s , I was .

Q . Did anything occur at t hat meet ing with the c h i l dren ?

A . Y e s . Dur ing that meeting I was meet ing w i t h the t wo

chi l dren and t he father in order t o d i s c u s s s ome o f t h e i r

preferences a s regard t o t he i r s chedu l e and ext ra cur r i cu l a r

activit ie s , a n d f a t h e r became very agitated, I t h i n k with

some o f my que s t ion s about - - about the act ivi t i e s the

children want ed t o parti cipate in and my sugge s t ion that

perhaps he could share in those activit i e s , and he s t ood up

at the confe rence table in my o f f i ce and started pounding

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS ----------- 7

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the table , ye l l ing that mother i s a l i a r . Th i s was i n f ront

of the two chi ldren . They were loo king a t me w i th huge eye s

3 and very anxious about - - ne i t h e r o f them moved and they

4 were c l e a r l y gett ing ups e t j us t b y t he - - j us t b y the t one

5 in the room .

6 And I l eaned out the door to my conference room and a s ked my

7 s t a f f t o ca l l mother to come and p i c k the g i r l s up . I don ' t

8 know whether o r not M r . Saunde r s could hear me , he w a s

9 seated on the oppo s i t e s ide o f the conference t a b l e . And he

1 0 started moving around on the other s ide o f the conference

1 1 t able , both g i r l s were moving a round on the other s i de o f

1 2 the conf e rence table . One was seated next t o him, the other

1 3 was s tanding a t a d i f f e rent s ide o f the tabl e . And h e

1 4 started t o l eave the conference room, and I was at t h e

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doorway o f the conference room going out t o my recept i on

a rea , and he s hoved me back against the doo rj amb . I reached

out t o try to hold onto one of t he g i r l ' s a rms , and he

1 8 turned a round and came a t me again and s hoved me aga i n , and

1 9 my s t a f f a t t empted to intervene . She came runn i ng around

2 0 from he r de s k t o t r y to a s s i s t , and he s hoved h e r awa y . And

21 I f i na l l y j us t let h im go w i t h the g i r l s because I could see

2 2 that they were be coming ext r eme l y ups e t . I w a s a fr a i d for

2 3 h im t o drive w i t h t he g i r l s because o f how agitated he wa s ,

24 and I was re a l l y concerned about him driving away with them

2 5 i n the ca r .

2 6 I did f o l low t hem out t o the ca r , and I l eaned i n the

2 7 p a s s enger s i de o f t he car and t o ld t he g i r l s i t was f ine ,

2 8 eve rything was f ine , and that they wou l d be o ka y , and a s ked

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1 i f the y were all r ight going with the i r dad , and the y s a i d

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they were . And I s a i d o ka y , and , you know , eve r ythi n g i s

o kay , you know , everyone will b e fine , and I l e t them go .

My sta f f had called 9 1 1 . The pol i ce came - - I b e l i eve it

5 wa s a s he r i f f ' s o f f i ce r , I ' m not sure wh i ch a gency a r rived

6 r i ght a fter M r . S aunde r s had le ft, and reported to them what

7 had h appened . He a s ked i f I wanted to f ile any charges and

8 I s a i d no , that I think he wa s j u st trying to move me out of

9 the way . I don ' t thi n k he would have attac ked me

1 0 nece s s a r ily but for h i s des i r e to get out o f my o f f i ce , take

1 1 the g i r l s with h im and move me out o f the way . Becau s e I

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wa s a s I ' m sure he perceived , in the way , and I wa s

trying to keep - - I was trying to hold onto one o f the g i r l s

s o he couldn ' t ta ke them . S o I did - -

Q . Did you a s k h im not to ta ke the children?

A . I don ' t recall i f I s a i d don ' t ta ke the children . I t

1 7 wa s e xtreme l y - - it w a s e xtremely e xplo s ive at that time . I

1 8 was fearfu l for them and I - - I was j u st try i ng to r each out

1 9 and h o l d on . One o f the g i rls wa s already too far p a s sed

2 0 me , and that ' s - - I didn ' t want to get i nto a phys i c a l mat ch

2 1 o f pulling on the s e g i rls , s o I let - - s o I didn ' t try to

2 2 deta i n them o r hang onto them, and he l e ft with them . I

2 3 don ' t reca l l i f I tol d h im that I didn ' t want him to ta ke

2 4 the g i rl s .

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Q .

A .

Did you ca l l Dr . Berger?

I c a lled a fter the fact . My sta f f called . I niti a l l y

2 7 w e wanted t o l et h e r know what h a d happened because I wanted

28 to be s ure , number one , that the girl s got b a c k to he r

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1 s a fe l y . They were due t o be r eturned t o her that evening ,

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and s o I wanted t o ma ke sure that i n fact t he g i r l s did get

exchanged l a t e r that evening , and they did get exchanged

later that evening . And I a l so wanted h e r t o know what had

occurred because I a s s umed the g i r l s wou ld be upset .

Q . And t h i s wa s on t he evening before the hea r ing on 9 - 2 4

of ' 0 8 ?

A . Correct .

Q . Were you pre s ent in court at the hearing on 9 - 2 4 - 0 8 ?

A .

Q .

Ye s , I wa s .

Wa s M r . S aunde r s pre s ent a t that he aring?

A . Ye s , he w a s .

Q . F i r s t o f a l l , a t the evening before did M r . S aunde r s

appear t o you t o b e out o f cont ro l ?

A . Abs o l ut el y .

THE RES PONDENT : Obj ect i on , Your Honor .

THE COURT : Why ?

THE RES PONDENT : E s sent i a l l y t hat woul d be s omeone

1 9 ma king a j udgment . What de f i n e s out o f cont r o l ? M s . Van

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THE COURT : That i s fine .

THE RES PONDENT : and M r . S o kol - -

T H E COURT : S u s t a ined . You want to reph r a s e the

2 4 que s t i o n , Mr . S o ko l ?

2 5 MR . SOKOL :

2 6 Q . You did answer ye s , could you t e l l u s what you mean by

2 7 that ?

2 8 A . H e was shouting and hitting the tab l e with his f i s t .

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He was s hout ing very l oudl y , she i s a l i a r , your mot h e r i s a

l i a r . He was s a ying i t i n a l oud enough vo i c e that I wa s

becoming f r i ght ened for the g i r l s . I was not yet anxi ous

for mys e l f . I t didn ' t occur t o me that he woul d s hove me .

When he pus hed me into the door j amb I wa s surp r i sed at how

6 very s t rong he i s . He h a s a great deal o f s t rength i n h i s

7 a rms , and I w a s s tunned and very surpr i s ed at how

8 thre a t en i ng that s i tuat ion got s o qui c k l y . I w a s - - we were

9 t a l king p e a c e ful l y , and then suddenly he s t ood up and was

10 appearing t o b e very unable t o cont rol h i s ange r .

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Q . At the hearing the next day when you were present and

Mr . S aunde r s was pre s ent , did the j udge t ha t day ent e r

r e s t r a i n i ng orde r s against h im in your p r e s ence ?

A . I do not - -

Q . Did he o rde r

A . I do not recal l .

1 7 Q . Let me reph r a s e i t .

18 A . Okay .

19 Q . Did h e ente r o rder s concerning the chi ldren ?

20 A . Y e s , he did . I had - - I had reque s t ed i n t he cour t room

2 1 at that t ime t h a t t he o rders I had been going t o reque s t be

2 2 modi f ie d such that there be s ome orders i n p l a ce regarding

2 3 supervi s e d v i s i t s , which I had not been int ending t o

24 reque s t . I ' m - - I need t o s a y for t he Court I am because

25 I ' m not a l l owed o r requi red t o t e s t i fy a s t o my r o l e a s

2 6 mino r s ' coun s e l , I ' m uncomfortable w i t h going beyond t h e

2 7 bounda r i e s o f what I should be t e s t i fying t o , other t han the

28 inci dents that I witn e s s e d that would r e l ate to t h i s

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restra ining orde r . I --

Q . We l l , l e t me rephra s e t hat t hen . Were you pres ent when

the j udge o rdered that t here be no contact between

Mr . S aunde r s and the chi ldren , other than superv i s ed

cont a ct ?

A . Y e s .

Q . Were you made aware that immedia t e l y a f t e r the hearing

he went t o t h e s chool and t r i ed t o cont act the chi ldren ?

A . Ye s , I wa s t o l d t ha t , and I a l s o - - my s t a f f con f i rme d

that with the s choo l .

Q . Okay . We re you p re s ent i n t he court on 3 -9- 09 when

Mr . S aunde r s was invo lved i n an a l t e rcat i on i n court ?

A . Ye s , I wa s .

Q . How was h e behaving a s you obs e rved him?

A . Very s imi l a r l y t o t he way he behaved in my o f f i c e on

Septembe r 2 3 rd . I t w a s that s ame e s c a l at i on o f volume o f

h i s voice , a n d h i s a n g e r a n d a g i t at ion seemed t o b e j us t

increas ing very qui c k l y , whi ch i s what I witne s s ed i n my

o f f i c e in S ept ember , and I wa s at t hat point not s urpri s ed

at what occurred because e s s ent ia l ly that s ame behavior had

occurred directed a t me .

Q . Wa s he found i n di rect cont empt b y the j udge ?

A . Ye s , he was .

Q . Did he follow the j udge ' s order s at that t ime t o l eave ?

A . No , not at a l l .

Q . Did he a s sault the bai l i ff - -

A . Ye s , he did .

Q . -- that was attempting to handcuff him? Was he

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a r r e s t e d ?

A . Ye s , he was .

Q . Do you be l i eve t hat he s hould undergo a comp l e t e

psychol o g i c a l examinat i on b e f o r e he i s a l l owed anyt hi ng

othe r than s upervi sed - - any contact with the chi ldren?

are w e ?

T H E COURT : That i s r ea l l y not why we are here ,

THE RES PONDENT : Than k you , Your Hono r , I was

about t o state that .

MR . SOKOL : That i s fine .

THE RES PONDENT : Appreciate that .

THE COURT : Anyt h ing e l s e , Mr . S o ko l ?

MR . SOKOL : Nothing , Your Honor .

THE COURT : M r . S aunde r s , do you have any

que s t ions of M s . Van Beveren?

THE RES PONDENT : I do a s k that h e r ent i re

t e s t imony be thrown out , she h a s comp l e t e l y p e rjured he r s e l f

and my witne s s e s wi l l share s ome o f what s h e s a i d .

four witne s s e s i n t he courtroom - -

I have

THE COURT : I ' m sorry , you are g iving a spe ech .

Do you have any que s t i on s ?

THE RES PONDENT : Y e s , i n fact I do .

CRO S S -EXAM I NAT I ON BY MR . SAUNDERS :

Q . Ms . Van Beveren , do you reca l l that when we were having

a conve r s a t ion at the table that I men t i oned the fact about

the import ance o f the g i r l s ' r e l i g i ou s educat ion and

upbringing and the fact t hat it was being given short

shrift?

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MR . SOKOL : Can we have a t ime l i ne ?

THE COURT : I bel ieve we are t a l king about

S eptemb e r 2 3 rd .

THE RES PONDENT : Ye s , t han k you , I ' m s or r y .

Q . S ept ember 2 3 rd , 2 0 0 8 i n the meet ing i n your o f f i ce .

And I r e ca l l that you didn ' t l i ke my l ine o f que s t i oning and

you a t t empted to end the mee t i n g within t he f i r s t f ive

minut e s .

MR . SOKOL : Obj e ct i on , there i s no que s t i on .

THE RES PONDENT : I ' m get t ing to the que s t ion .

Q . And I was t he one that went ahead and s a i d I don ' t

t h i n k that there needs t o be any - - you know , we may not

agree on everything , but t ha t doe s n ' t mean that we c an ' t

cont i nue on i n our mee t i ng ; do you reca l l me s aying that ?

A . Not those exact words , but I reca l l the gen e r a l drift

o f that . I t w a s not exact l y a s you ' ve j ust s t at ed .

Q . Okay . Do you reca l l me s a ying , when you s a i d about the

g i r l s - - about the g i r l s p l aying soccer and that you s a i d to

me that you ' d l i ke to see me attend that , and I s a i d I would

be g l ad to do that i f o n l y t he i r mother would t e l l me where

they are p l aying soccer because I have no knowl edge a t a l l

about t ha t ?

A . I r e ca l l you saying that you would be happy t o attend

s ome of t he i r soccer game s .

Q . Um-hmm . And do you reca l l me a l s o stat ing that you

neve r got back to my forme r attorne y , T om Pena , and mys e l f

rega rding a n agreement - - wel l , ba s i ca l l y a p ropo s a l you

made at a Jul y 5 t h , 20 0 - - - I c an ' t reca l l the exact dat e ,

SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 1 4

1 but Jul y 2 0 0 8 confe rence , five -way conference , w ith

2 Mr . S o ko l , Apr i l Berge r , T om Pena , you and mys e l f , where you

3 o f fered an opp or t un ity for me t o switch my -- at t ha t t ime I

4 had Monday and - - excuse me , Tuesda y and Wedne sday

5 supe rvi sed vi s its w i t h my chi ldren , and you o f f e red f o r me

6 to switch my Tue s days t o Mondays t o accommodat e the g i r l s

7 attending Hebrew s chool , which t he y were s i gned up for and

8 had attended for many yea r s , and that in o rder - - and i f s o ,

9 then they could p l a y soccer on Tue s days or do s ometh ing e l s e

1 0 on Tuesda y to accommodate that , and you wou l d never - - and

1 1 the que s t ion I have i s do you recal l never getting b a c k to

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Mr . Pena and mys e l f regarding t ha t propo s a l ?

A . No , I a lways g ot back to Mr . Pena . And t hat i sn ' t the

way the conver s ation went .

Q . Um-hmm .

A . Onl y p a rtia l l y .

Q . Okay .

A . You made a lot o f statemen t s i n that one s entence .

Q . O ka y . We l l , Mr . Pena - - by t he way , Mr . Pena to l d me

that he never rece ived - -

MR . SOKOL : Obj e ct i on , h e a r s a y .

THE COURT : S u s t a ined .

2 3 THE RES PONDENT : Okay .

2 4 THE COURT : Do you have a que s t i o n ?

2 5 THE RES PONDENT :

2 6 Q. Let ' s s e e , e s sent ia l l y s o do you reca l l what you s a i d

2 7 t o me when I mentioned t o you that I wa s mo re t han

2 8 w i l l ing - - which I had s a i d a l s o in Ju l y at the Jul y 5th

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meet i ng - - that I was more than w i l l ing , and I r e i t e rated

that point i n our meet ing on Septembe r 2 3 rd i n your o f f i ce ,

I woul d be mor e t han w i l l ing t o , again , swi t ch my Tue sdays

t o Monday s so the g i r l s could go t o Hebrew s chool becau s e

t h e y had expre s s e d a de s i re t o d o i t a n d they had always

l oved going and t he y had f r i ends and they had not s e en t he i r

f r i ends f o r a wh i le ; do you reca l l me s t a t i ng that ?

A . Y e s .

Q . Do you reca l l at s ome po int during our conve r s a t i on

wher e we ba s i c a l l y had a verbal d i s agreement and - - do you

reca l l that ?

1 2 A . On which occa s i o n ? I don ' t know what you are r e f e r r ing

1 3 t o .

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Q . We l l , de f in i ng s ever a l d i f f e rent t h i ng s , seve r a l

di f fe rent p o i n t s you r a i sed .

s i de - -

I mean , wa s o n t h e opp o s i t e

T H E COURT : I ' m s o r ry , l et ' s back up . I be l i eve

Ms. Van Beve ren wanted you to c l a r i f y are you s t i l l t a l king

about S eptembe r 2 3 rd .

THE RES PONDENT : Ye s . I ' l l de f i n i t e l y l e t you

know f o r sure when my l ine o f que s t i oning get s to s omething

e l se . Thank you for c l a r i fying t ha t , Your Honor .

Q . Do you r e ca l l that we had s everal d i s a greemen t s about

2 4 s ome o f t he i s sue s that came up ? I mean , we we r e p r e t t y

2 5 much on oppo s it e ends ; do you r e ca l l t ha t ?

2 6 A . Actua l l y I t hought we were do ing ve ry we l l . Aft e r the

2 7 init i a l object i on that I made a t the very beginning , which

2 8 you re f erenced - - kind o f lumped with s ome oth e r things that

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 1 6

1 I don ' t agree with , I thought we were actua l l y doing qui te

2

3

we l l at di s cus s ing those i s sue s .

Q . And do you reca l l a t whi ch point , o r what s tatement

4 perhaps w a s made , that our di sagreement got t o what you ca l l

5 more he a t - - - the event s gett i ng mor e he ated?

6 MR . SOKOL : I ' m not s ure I unde r s t and the

7 ques t i on , Your Hono r .

8 THE RES PONDENT : I n othe r words , she s a i d t hat I

9 got out o f cont r o l , I banged on t he t ab l e , I --

1 0 THE COURT : Are you a s king h e r i n h e r opinion what

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t r iggered your be coming out o f cont ro l ?

THE RES PONDENT: We l l , I wasn ' t out o f cont r o l .

THE COURT : S o why don ' t

THE RES PONDENT : I n other words , she perce ived to

be me changing my pattern o f behavior i n that me et ing .

THE WITNE S S : I reca l l we were t a l king about

1 7 Hebrew s choo l , and you were t e l l ing me how behind the

1 8 chi l dren were , and we - - I a s ked you about the p o s s i b i l i t y

1 9 o f you home scho o l i ng t hem t o s ome ext ent because the days

2 0 were not wor king out because o f the con f l ict w i t h socce r ,

2 1 the soccer t e am they were on , and we were d i s cu s s ing that ,

2 2 and the s ta t emen t s that you s t a rt ed ma king about Ms . Berger

2 3 being a l i a r r e a l l y didn ' t f l ow f rom t he conve r s at i on we

2 4 w e r e having . W e w e r e d i s c u s s ing Hebrew s chool and what

2 5 po s s ib l e opt i o n s there would be . I f they could not change

2 6 days unt i l a t l e a s t a ft e r soccer s e a s on , what other opt i ons

2 7 there were , and you t o o k me comp l e t e l y b y s u rp r i s e b y

2 8 s t anding up and s t a rt ing t o shout that she i s a l i ar , and

SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT REPORTERS --------- 1 7

1 that did not f o l l ow for me w i th the di s cus s ion we were

2

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having . But i t was r eg arding Hebrew s chool and t h e s ch edul e

s o t h e y wouldn ' t g e t any further behind .

4 Q . Do you reca l l that I had s ent you an e -ma i l and a l s o

5 that I wa s - - di s cus sed about having been s t opped by the

6 execut ive di rector o f t he Hebrew re l ig i ous s chool and one o f

7 the teach e r s who stated that the g i r l s were behind and t hat

8 they were having - - and they we re having prob l ems and they

9 loo ked l o s t and they were con fused and they couldn ' t

1 0 pa rt i cipate at t h e s ame leve l a s the other chi l dren who had

1 1 been there eve r y wee k , and i n the f i r s t t hree wee ks o f

1 2 s chool they had a l ready mi s s e d at l e a s t ha l f the i r c l a s s e s ?

1 3 MR . SOKOL : Obj e c t i o n , compound que s t i on .

1 4 THE RES PONDENT : I can s imp l i fy i t .

1 5 THE COURT : Ove rrul e d . You can answer the

1 6 que s t ion .

1 7 THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Honor .

1 8 THE W I TNES S : I don ' t rememb e r eve r y s ingle

1 9 statement that you j ust made , but absolut e l y the gene r a l

2 0 the general conclus ion t hat you are s a ying , ye s , I do reca l l

2 1 you ma king that statement to me i n gener a l , not word f o r

2 2 word .

2 3 THE RES PONDENT :

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Q . O ka y.

A . And a t that point we a l s o we re t a l king about the fact

that , unfortunate l y , they have one parent who is Jewi sh and

one p arent who i s not and that that doe s create the need fo r

s ome compromi s e , whi ch i s di f f i cult .

SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 1 8

1 Q . Do you reca l l that t he o f fer that you made at the

2 five -way mee t i ng in Jul y s up e r s eded Apr i l Berger enr o l l ing

3 the g i r l s in s occer s chool; do you recal l that ?

4 A . No , I don ' t have the power t o ma ke a p ropo s a l o r t o l a y

5 down a s chedu l e that h a s to be f o l l owed. I do reca l l u s

6 d i s cu s s ing your reque st f o r a change i n days and d i s cu s s ing

7 the fact that that should be con s i dered and eve r yone ne eded

8 t o s e e what they could work out . I do reca l l the

9 discu s s i o n , but I don ' t have the powe r t o ma ke agreements

1 0 and ma ke things j us t change . That i s not my r o l e a s mi nors '

1 1 coun s e l .

1 2 Q . We l l , I would l i ke i t j udi c i a l l y noted f o r the r e co rd

1 3 that you did ma ke a p ropos a l , and nothing was de cided . I

1 4 b e l i eve you did state , t hough , that you woul d have t o t a l k

1 5 t o Apr i l and ma ke sure t hat t h i s works out f o r eve r ybody

1 6 unl e s s --

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A . Apr i l was p r e s ent . I ' m s orry .

THE COURT : I t ' s not a proper s ub j ect f o r j udicial

not i ce . I gue s s I ' m a l i t t l e concerned a s t o the impact or

the import o f this l ine o f que s t i oning . I ' m not sure what

t h i s h a s to do with why we a re here . I mea n , a r e you

t e l l i ng me it ' s your p o s i t ion t hat h e r behavior warranted

your behavi o r ?

THE RES PONDENT : No . I don ' t be l i eve that my

2 5 behav i o r wa s out o f contro l , f i r s t o f a l l .

2 6 THE COURT : We l l , why don ' t we get t o that inst ead

2 7 o f a l l the anc i l lary i s sues .

28 THE RESPONDENT: I ' m jus t trying to ma ke s ome

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point s here f i r s t t o ma ke sure i n that way , but I ' l l be glad

to cut t o t he cha s e .

Q . Ms . Van Beveren , do you remember when - - when we were

at the meet ing do you r emember your behavior e xc a l a t ing? Do

you remember your demeanor changing? Do you remember you

ra i s ing your voice a t me ?

A . F i r s t o f a l l , I ' m not sure i f we were b a c k t o the Jul y

me eting o r t h e S ept ember mee t ing .

Q . Excu s e me , l et me c l a r i f y that . Septemb e r 2 3 rd , 2 0 0 8

i n your off i ce .

A . I remember becoming f e a r fu l o f what was going t o happen

next .

Q . When we a r e having a me r e d i s cus s i on?

A . Not

Q . How could you be fearful o f a di s cu s s i on ? And we had a

ve rb a l d i s a gr eement - -

A . I wa s n ' t f e a r ful at that t ime .

Q . - - you know .

A . I wa s n ' t fea r ful unt i l you s tarted s hout ing and

pounding the t ab l e .

Q . I have a que s t ion for you , which hand did I use t o

pound t he tabl e ?

A . I have n o i dea .

Q . Rea l l y ? I n t e r e s t ing . And how hard did I pound the -­

supp o s e d l y did I pound t he t ab l e ?

A . Loud - - hard enough t ha t t he crayon s , the r o l l -up

crayons t hat were on the t ab l e that the g i r l s had been

co l o r ing with , were jumping a round, and hard enough that

SACRAMENTO O FF I C I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------2 0

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1 both g i r l s were s t a ring at me and l oo king very f e a r f u l o f

2 what wa s g o i ng t o happen , and hard enough that I w a s

3 becoming fea r fu l and opened t he doo r t o the con f erence room

4 to t e l l my s t a f f that I needed he r t o ca l l - - the g i r l s were

5 to be returned t o M s . Berger that evening a ft e r our mee t i n g ,

6 and I c a l led - - a s ked my s t a f f t o ca l l he r .

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Q. Let ' s s e e , a s I reco l l e ct what happened w a s tha t -­

MR . SOKOL : Obj ect i on , i rr e l evant .

THE RES PONDENT : Okay . I can only a s k que s t i ons ?

THE COURT : For now .

1 1 THE RES PONDENT : O ka y , that i s fine , and t hen when

1 2 I am my own witne s s I can do whatever l a t e r , o ka y . Thank

1 3 you , for c l a r i f i ca t i on regarding tha t , Your Hono r .

1 4 Q . Do you remember me s aying t o the g i r l s - - you s a id at

1 5 some point the meet ing i s ove r , and I s a i d , f ine , o ka y ,

1 6 g i rl s , l et ' s l eave , and you s a i d to me - - do you r e ca l l

1 7 saying t o me I ' m t e l l ing the j udge about you tomor row?

1 8 A . I don ' t r emember , but I mos t l i ke l y woul d have s a i d

1 9 that . Ab s o l ut e l y .

2 0 Q . You mos t l i ke l y would have s a i d that ?

2 1 A . Y e s . I ' m sure I woul d have t o l d you that I ' m going to

2 2 t e l l the j udge .

2 3 Q . Do you r emember tha t I s a i d that I ' m going to t e l l the

2 4 j udge about you ?

2 5 A . Something t o that e f fect , not tho s e words .

2 6 Q . O ka y . And then do you remember me saying t o the g i rls

2 7 a s we got up and I - - do you remember me pushing my cha i r

2 8 ba c k and pushing my - - against the t ab l e to be ab l e t o push

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back s o that I could get up f r om the t ab l e because I wa s a l l

t h e w a y under t h e t ab l e e s sent ia l l y ; d o you r emember me

doing t ha t ?

A . You had a l ready s t ood up and were pounding the t ab l e at

s ome point . I don ' t remembe r exa ct l y when you pushed your

cha i r b a c k .

THE RES PONDENT : Your Hono r , can I obj ect t o --

when I ' m a s king a l ine of que s t i oning ?

THE W I TNES S : That i s my r e c o l l e ct i o n .

THE COURT : Sur e , and I ' l l i gnore i t .

THE RES PONDENT : O ka y . We l l , o ka y , fine , but I

t ot a l l y obj ect .

THE COURT : There i s not h i ng t o obj ect t o .

THE RES PONDENT : Okay .

THE COURT : You know , people t e s t i f y a l l the t ime .

THE RES PONDENT : Okay .

THE COURT : You don ' t l i ke t h e i r t e s t imony , put on

your t e s t imony when i t ' s your turn .

THE RES PONDENT : No p roblem . Thank you , Your

Hono r .

Q . Let ' s s e e , do you r e ca l l me t e l l i ng my daugh t e r s , o ka y ,

g i r l s , l et ' s go ?

A . Y e s .

Q . Could you t e l l in your own words what happened next

immediat e l y when - - a ft e r I t o l d the g i r l s that we ' re

l e aving , l e t ' s g o , we a r e leaving?

A . I wa l ked t o the ent r yway o f t he conference room t o

where m y s e c r e t a ry wa s s eated at the recept ion t abl e , and

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------2 2

1 you s t a rted t o come a round the conf e rence table with one

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3

g i r l , I be l i eve , in f ront and one behind you , I ' m not

exact l y s ure where they were p l aced , and a s you approached

4 me , you s hoved me aga i n s t the doo r j amb o f my confe rence room

5 o f fice . There i s a wooden divider between the recep t i on

6 de s k that i s i n the ent r y of my o f f i ce next t o the

7 conference room opening , I wa s shoved part l y against the

8 doorj amb and p a r t l y against that . You wa l ked out , I reached

9 out for one o f the g i r l ' s a rms and did in fact have aho l d o f

1 0 one o f the g i r l ' s a rms a t that point , and you t urned a round

1 1 and pushed me again and s t a r t ed h i t t ing at me with both

1 2 arms , and I do remember that .

1 3 Q . The s uppos e d incident that happened when you were

1 4 bloc king my e x i t from the o f f i c e - - f rom the o f f i ce

1 5 conference room that I s uppo s ed l y pushed you , which hand did

1 6 I use t o supposedly push you?

1 7 A . You used both hands . You were h i t t i ng me with both

1 8 hands , and you u s ed your body a s we l l t o shove me out o f the

1 9 way . When you t u rned a round the s e cond t ime , I wa s more in

2 0 front o f the wooden partit ion wal l than i n the doo r jamb , and

2 1 you pus hed me again , and you then pushed my s ecret a r y a s

2 2 we l l .

2 3 Q . And the cane I u s e a s an a s s i s t ance devi ce , that I

2 4 a lways keep down o n the ground s o I c a n s tand erect , where

2 5 wa s that at the t ime when I was pushing you w i t h both hands ?

2 6 A . I have no i dea .

2 7

2 8

Q .

A .

I woul dn ' t think so .

I was t rying to reach f o r your daugh t e r

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS ---------2 3

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MR . SOKOL : I wonde r i f we can have none of t he s e

s i de comment s by Mr .

THE COURT : We l l

THE RES PONDENT : Sor r y , Your Honor .

THE COURT : Mr . S aunde rs s e ems to thin k that h i s

chuc k l i ng a n d h i s smi rking a n d hi s s ide comment s a r e

bene f i c i a l to h i s c a s e .

THE RES PONDENT : Sor r y , Your Honor .

THE COURT : Let me a s sure you they a r e not .

THE RES PONDENT : Sor r y , Your Honor .

Q . M s . Van Beveren , when you s a i d t hat I c ame out s ide and

pushed you a s e cond t ime or pushed you out s i de your off ice a

1 3 s e cond t ime , and , a ga i n , a s I u s e my crane a s an a s s i s t ance

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device and I need that to s t and sol i dl y , whe r e was my cane

at the t ime when I s upposedl y wa s pushing you with both

hands ?

A . Fi r s t of a l l , I didn ' t s a y i t was out s ide my o f f i ce , so

I ' m not sure how to respond to that .

Q . O ka y .

A . That i sn ' t what I s a i d . I s a id out s ide the con fe rence

2 1 room .

2 2 Q . So out s ide the conference room . And whe r e wa s I

2 3 facing? Wa s I f a cing to you or against you ?

2 4 A . You were wa l king away f rom me and you t u rned and came

2 5 at me , and I have no idea wher e your cane was .

2 6 Q . Did I s a y anything to you be fore I s uppos edl y c ame at

2 7 you ?

2 8 A . You were spea king , I don ' t reca l l what exa c t l y you

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s a i d .

Q . And where w e re my daugh t e r s at the t ime that I was

speaking a t you ?

A . One of them wa s i n f ront of you going out the door to

the office , the other one i n i t i a l l y wa s between u s .

Q . Do you reca l l tha t - - what I did a ft e r I wa s spea king

at you ? Do you reca l l me turning a round and having my back

to you ?

A. I do , and t a king the g i r l s out with you , and I a l lowed

them to l eave . I didn ' t t ry to stop you .

Q . Do you r e ca l l me having my b a c k turned towa rd you , my

cane on my - - in my l e ft hand , p l anted f i rmly to the g round ,

and you l unged a ft e r my daugh t e r Laura and pushed me

mult ip l e t ime s , and when I b loc ked - - and a s I blocked your

path so t ha t you coul dn ' t get at he r ?

A . There a re s o many que s t i on s , I have no idea how to

answer ye s or no to t ha t .

Q . Ve r y s imp l y , do you rec a l l me having my b a c k turned

towa rd you w i t h my cane f i rml y p l anted on the g round?

A . I don ' t h ave any idea wher e your cane wa s .

Q . Do you reca l l me having my back towards you ?

A . Y e s .

Q . Do you reca l l lunging a ft e r Laura , and me b locking you

from doing that ?

A . Ye s .

Q . Do you r e ca l l whe re Jul i a , my daughter Ju l i a , was at

the t ime ?

A . One of the chi ldren - - and I ' m going to s a y now - - at

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS ---------25

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''--._./

the t ime in S ept ember I knew for sure whi ch was Laura and

whi ch was Jul i a . I ' m going t o s a y r i ght now I ' m he s it ant t o

s a y that o n the chance - - they are twins and the y l o o k a

great dea l a l i ke . They are ident i ca l twin s , I be l i eve .

And I b e l i eve that I reached for Laura - - actua l l y , I ' m not

sure i f I reached for Laura o r Jul i a . One o f the g i r l s was

in f ront o f you furthe r away f rom me , my s e cretary actua l l y

reached f o r that chi l d , I reached f o r the o n e between u s ,

and you turned a round , pushed me awa y , that i s when you

pushed me away the s e cond t ime , and then you t urned and l e ft

with the g i rl s . I s topped t rying t o reach for e i the r chi l d .

I then fo l l owed you out s ide a ft e r you had got ten f a r enough

ahead o f me that you woul dn ' t f e e l that I was t r yi ng to

i nt e r f e re , and I went and t a l ked t o the g i r l s through the

pas senger s i de o f the car . I opened the pa s s enger door and

t a l ked to them i n the back s e at .

Q . Do you re ca l l my daught e r , Laur a , a f t e r my back wa s

turned t o you and you w e re pushing me t o t r y t o get t o he r

when you lunged a ft e r her , do you r e ca l l he r s a y ing , why are

you being so mean , why are you being so mean to my daddy , we

don ' t want you a s our a t to rney anymore ?

A . No , the y did not s a y tha t , n o r did I push you .

Q . O ka y . Then how were you able t o t r y t o get p a s sed me

to get to Laura when you lunged t owards her i f I was

blocking your way ?

A . One o f the g i r l s wa s s t i l l between the two o f u s , I

reached out with my hand and he l d onto her hand and a rm ,

lower a rm , and l e t g o o f he r when you pushed me away .

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS ---------2 6

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Q .

A .

Q .

With my bac k turned toward you ?

No .

Wh ich hand did I u s e behind me ?

A . I ' ve e xp l a ined t h i s . You pushed p a s sed me i n i t i a l l y to

go out of the con ference room door . I reached for one of

the g i r l s , you t u rned to me a s e cond t ime and s hoved me

aga i n s t t he divider between my reception i s t des k , we were

out s i de t he conf erence room door at that point but s t i l l

ins ide my o f f i ce door , and I l e t go o f h e r a rm when you

shoved me the s e cond t ime , and then you l e f t with the g i r l s ,

and your b a c k wa s to me when you l e ft with the g i r l s .

Q . Do you reca l l that i t wa s Jul i a who wa s a t t empt i ng to

come out of the confe rence room because s he had gone back

there becau s e she - - obviou s l y she was a f raid of what was

going on and you pushing h e r fathe r , and that you grabbed

1 6 he r by the a rm a n d you w e r e twi s t ing h e r a rm a s she was

1 7 t rying t o get away f rom you ?

1 8 MR . SOKOL : Compound que s t i on and - -

1 9 THE COURT : Ove r r u l ed . You can answer the

2 0 que s t ion .

2 1 THE W I TNES S : I woul d neve r have twi s t ed e i ther of

2 2 t hos e chi ldren ' s a rms . I did t r y t o hold onto one o f t hem

2 3 so that you coul d not t a ke t hem f rom my o f f i c e . I wa s very

2 4 f r ightened for t h e i r s a f e t y and the y were very f r i ghtened .

2 5 THE RES PONDENT :

2 6 Q . Let ' s s ee , do you reca l l a ft e r I wa s abl e to get the - -

2 7 my daught e r s away f rom you and out your con fe rence room that

28 you ran a fter us as we were heading to t he car and t hen you

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS ----------2 7

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threatened me ? Do you reca l l what you s a i d ?

A . I wa l ked s o s l ow l y and ca lml y f rom my o f f ice out t o

your c a r w i t h t h e int ent o f ma king s u r e t h e g i r l s ' f e a r

woul d decre a s e a n d acting ve r y c a lm a n d t e l l i ng them

ever ything wou ld be f ine and a s ked i f they were o ka y to go

with you . They s a i d ye s , and I s a i d o ka y , you ' l l be f ine ,

I ' l l t a l k t o you late r , and it wa s very very c a lm . I did

not run out of my o f f i c e . I t - - you were wa l king away from

my o f f i ce t owa rd the car , I don ' t even know that you could

have seen what I wa s do ing , but I wa s wa l king very s l owly

and c a lml y .

Q . I f ind i t intere s t ing t hat -�

MR . SOKOL : Obj e ct i on .

THE COURT : Have a que s t ion?

THE RES PON DENT : Okay, o ka y , sure .

Q . I f my daught e r s were runni ng to my car and I wa s

wa l king very f a s t a s fast a s I c o u l d out o f your o f f i ce

and I wa s wa l king very f a s t t o get away f rom the s i t uat i on

and you , how cou l d you catch up t o u s ? I f you were wa l king

c a lml y and t rying t o ma ke sure that eve r ything was c a lm , et

ceter a , e t cetera , how were you abl e to do that , because we

had a b i t o f a l e ad upon you , a nd the daugh t e r - - and my

daught e r s , who p l a y socce r , run very qui c k l y ?

A . Fi r s t o f a l l , your daugh t e r s we ren ' t runni n g , but ,

s e condl y , they were s e a t ed i n t he back seat o f the c a r by

the t ime I got t o t he p a s s enger door and opened it .

Q . Do you reca l l sa ying s omething -- t hreat ening me in

f ront o f my daugh t e r s r i ght n e a r my car before you we got

SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT RE PORTERS ---------2 8

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to the ca r ?

A . No .

Q . Okay . You don ' t reca l l s a ying that you are going to

lose your v i s i t a t ion with your daughte r s ?

A . No .

Q . Saying that in f ront of them? Okay . Do you r e ca l l

w i l d l y opening the c a r door and s t i c king your head in and

ha l f your body and s aying, g i r l s , do you f e e l s a fe , do you

feel s a fe with your fathe r , do you feel s a fe enough to drive

with your fathe r ? Do you reca l l those words ?

A . Ab solut e l y not , and I didn ' t s t i c k hal f my body i n ,

but , ye s , I opened the p a s senge r door , a s I ' ve a l ready

t e st i f i ed , I l eaned i nto the c a r and a s ked them if they were

okay to drive with you , and they said ye s , and I told t hem

eve rything wou l d be f ine . And I rema ined c a lm and they both

answe red me and I c losed t he door and b a c ked away so you

could drive of f .

Q . My que s t ion actua l l y wa s do you r emember w i l d l y opening

the car door ?

A . No .

MR . SOKOL : Obj e ct ion , i t ' s a con fu s ing que s t ion .

THE COURT : Appa rent l y not , s he answered i t .

THE W ITNE S S : No .

THE RES PONDENT :

Q . Let ' s see , going back a few s e conds -- a coup l e of

minut e s , do you remembe r t e l l ing your s e cretary to c a l l

t h e - - t o c a l l t h e g i r l s ' mot h e r ?

A. Yes .

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS ----------2 9

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28

Q . And then a s we were l eaving do you remember ca l l ing

your - - t e l l in g your s e cretary to cal l 9 1 1 ?

A . Y e s .

Q . Be fore you s t ated t hat you had c a l l e d the - - I pounded

the tabl e , I j umped up , you wal ked out of the -- tow a rds the

out s i de -- heading towa rds the out s ide your confe rence room ,

you told your s e cretary to c a l l t he g i r l s ' mot he r ?

A . Y e s .

Q . Now you j us t s t ated that - - you answered that you

cal led t hem a f t e r . So which i s i t , did you c a l l t hem be fore

we l e ft the confe rence room or a f t e r t he con f e r ence room?

A . I t e s t i f i ed at the beginning that be fore you began to

l eave the con fe rence room I l eaned out my con fe rence room

door and a s ked my secretary to ca l l M s . Berge r . I n a low

voice . I don ' t know i f you even heard me i s what I s a i d .

Q . I heard - -

A . A f t e r you w e r e t rying to l eave m y o f f i ce w i t h t h e gi r l s

i n that a g i t at ed s t at e , she was a s king s hou l d I ca l l the

pol i ce , s hould I ca l l 9 1 1 . S he had a l ready c a l led 9 1 1 , and

I s a i d , ye s , ca l l 9 1 1 . She had a l r eady done it because s he

was t hen f r i ghtened a s wel l .

Q . Do you reca l l my daugh t e r Jul ia s aying anyt h i ng to you

be fore she l e ft your of f i ce ?

A . I don ' t reca l l spec i f i ca l l y what e ither g i r l s a i d at

that point . I was tot a l ly focu sed on you and what I was

doing and what you were doing .

Q . The next day i n Judge Balonon ' s court do you r e ca l l --

do you reca l l t h e s t a t ement t ha t you made a n d you s a i d - -

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS ---------- 3 0

1 you didn ' t deny that you l unged a f t e r my daugh t e r Jul i a

2 excu s e me , l e t me phrase t ha t a s a que s t ion . Do you

3 remember in t he court room the next day not denyi ng when I

4 made s t a t emen t s of what you did and your behavior and

5 your - - your - - you phy s i ca l l y a s sault ing one of my

6 daughters and a t t empt ing to a s s au l t my other daught e r and

7 phys i c a l l y a s s au l t i ng me ? Do you r emember not denying that

8 you your behavior towards my daughte r s ?

9 A . I absol ut e l y denied that charact e r i zat ion of my

1 0 behavior . Absolute l y denied t hat . Didn ' t occur .

1 1

1 2

Q .

A .

Do you remember you s a ying onl y that he pushed me ?

Wha t do you mean by onl y s aying he pushed me ? I did

1 3 s a y you pushed me .

1 4 Q . Ri ght . How many t ime s that day did you - - on September

15 2 4 th did you say t ha t I pus hed you ; do you r e ca l l ?

1 6 A . I have no i dea how many t ime s I was a s ked . I have no

1 7 idea .

1 8 Q . We l l , I can r e f r e s h your memory , you s t ated that once .

1 9 Let ' s s e e , a l so on that dat e do you reca l l a s king that my

2 0 daughte r s - - a s ked Judge Balonon that my daught e r s h ave to

2 1 go to therap y because of t he i r fathe r s t re s sed t hem out ?

2 2 A . The chi ldren were s upposed to be in coun s e l l ing with

2 3 Penny Hancoc k . I recal l stat ing that I f e l t the g i r l s

2 4 needed to s e e the i r couns e lor a ft e r wha t they ob s e rved .

2 5 That had t o b e f r ight ening for them .

26 Q . And why had they not been in - - i f they were s upposed

2 7 to be i n coun s e l l ing with Penny Hancoc k , why were they not

2 8 in coun s e l l i ng with Penny Hancoc k ?

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MR . S OKOL : Obj ection , cal l s for conj e cture .

THE COURT : More important l y i t ' s not r e l evant to

these p roceedi ng s .

THE RES PONDENT : Okay .

Q . Do you r e ca l l a s king Judge Ba lonon t ha t Penny

Hancock -- when my daugh t e r s di d see Penny Hancoc k , that

Penny Hancoc k not be a l lowed to be s ubpoenaed a t a l l ?

A . Ms . Hancoc k agreed to be a therap i s t for the g i r l s on

the condit ion that s h e be a l lowed to be t he i r con f ident i a l

therap i s t a n d not be s ubpoenaed . That i s p a r t of the order

appoint ing her a t her reque s t , and eve ryone agreed to t hat .

Q . Wel l , not everyone ; I didn ' t . What was your fear of

or concern of not having Penny Hancock be s ubpoenaed , i n

l ight of the f a c t of - - that t h e r e was a n a l l egation by a

parent of a chi l d , who a t that t ime had j oint l e g a l cus tody ,

of a n a s s a u l t on a c h i l d ? What wou ld have been - - what was

your f e a r of not having Penny Hancoc k be subpoenaed to be - -

A . I had no fea r , i t wasn ' t my reque s t .

Q . Um-hmm .

A . I t was Ms . Hancoc k ' s reque st so that she coul d mai n t a i n

a con f i dent i a l r e l a t ion ship with her two pat i ent s .

Q . And what happens in l ight of a s i tuation that occurred

i n your o f f i ce t hat i n -- when my daughters wou l d mee t with

Penny Hancoc k and i n the - - at the in-t a ke s e s s ion t hat they

woul d t e l l h e r spec i f i c a l l y what - - they woul d t e l l h e r

about t he i n c i dent that occurred with you a n d then what

happens regarding her not be i ng abl e to be subpoenaed?

MR . SOKOL : Obj e ct ion , "what happen s " ca l l s for

SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT REPORTERS ---------3 2

1 conj ecture .

2 THE COURT : We l l , i t ' s rea l l y not r e l e vant to t h i s

3 proceeding . I ' m not quite sure - - I mean , i f you have a

4 prob l em with the condi t ions of Ms . Hancoc k ' s appointment ,

5 then f i l e a mot ion .

6 THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm . We l l , Mr . Sokol i s

7 t rying to s uppre s s my abi l i t y to f i l e mot ion s . That w i l l

8 have to be t a ken up in another s i tuat ion .

9 THE COURT : I - - okay .

1 0 THE RES PONDENT : I onl y f i l e d one to date .

1 1

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1 3 Q .

THE COURT : Anyway , not an i s sue for me toda y .

THE RES PONDENT : Oka y .

Did my daugh t e r s ever t e l l you that they phoned me

1 4 a ft e r that dat e twice and my daugh t e r s told me - - both my

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daught e r s told me that they spoke to Penny Hancoc k ?

A . I can ' t t e s t i fy a s to what thos e g i r l s have told me ,

I ' m t h e i r a t torne y .

Q . Okay . We l l , I ' l l get to t hat l a t e r when I get to

t e st i fy . Let ' s see , do you a l so recal l inc ident s where I

b rought to l ig ht s i tuat ion s that my daught e r s were i n where

I voi ced my concern of things t hat they had s a i d , and one

where t h e y one of m y daugh t e r s was phys i c a l l y a s s aulted

by a c h i l d i n t h e i r s chool at Apr i l Berger ' s home , and I wa s

ve ry conce rned about i t and I was rea l l y di smayed by Ap r i l

not addre s s i ng t h e i s sue and blowing i t o f f a s i f it wa s

me re l y a matt e r of - - you know , it wa s no b i g dea l ? Do you

remembe r me doing t ha t and do you r emember I sent you an

e-ma i l about tha t ?

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 3 3

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3

THE COURT : Let ' s b a c k up .

THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .

THE COURT : We are h e re on a dome s t i c v i o l ence

4 r e s t r a i n i ng orde r .

5 THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .

6 THE COURT : Ms . Van Beveren i s not a l i s ted

7 protected p a r t y , nor coul d she be .

8 THE RES PONDENT : Ri ght .

9

1 0 partie s .

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1 2

THE COURT : The chi l dren are l i sted a s protected

THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .

THE COURT : She h a s t e s t i fied ' a s t o h e r ve r s i on of

1 3 the event s that occurred that day . You obvious l y have your

1 4 own ver s i on that you a r e going t o t e s t i f y t o .

1 5

1 6

THE RES PONDENT : Ye s .

THE COURT : I ' m not qui t e sure why M s . Van Beve ren

1 7 needs t o be here any l onge r .

1 8 THE RES PONDENT : We l l

1 9 THE COURT : We are not going t o be l it igat ing

2 0 he r - - the value that she adds to t h i s c a s e o r the det r iment

2 1 that she adds t o t h i s case by being minors ' coun s e l . We are

2 2 not going t o b e l it igat ing any e f fort on your part t o r emove

2 3 he r . We are not l i t igat ing the par ame t e r s o f Penny

2 4 Hancoc k ' s couns e l l ing o f your chi ldren . We are not dea l ing

2 5 with cus t ody o rde r s whi ch are a l ready i n pl ace . Why are

2 6 we - - why don ' t we move on ?

2 7 THE RES PONDENT : We l l , Your Honor , the r e a s on why

2 8 I ' m c on t i nu i n g my l i ne o f que s t i on i n g i s b e c a u s e o f t he f a c t

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 3 4

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1 that I have evidence that goes t o there being supp re s s i on o f

2

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evidence and a cove rup on Sept ember 2 4 th at the h e a r i ng with

Judge B a l onon that would spe a k t o the t ruth o f what actually

4 occurred that day i n h e r o f f i ce . S o I j ust want ed t o ma ke

5 sure that i t - - t hat i t ' s stated i n h e r l ine o f que s t ioning

6 so that I can - - I didn ' t know f o r sure who - - other than

7 he r a s king f o r Penny Hanco c k t o be - - not t o be a l l owed to

8 be s ubpoenaed

9 THE COURT : Excu s e me , that wasn ' t her t e s t imony .

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THE RES PONDENT : Right . Right .

THE COURT : Wel l , don ' t s a y r i ght , that was n ' t her

1 2 t e s t imony .

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THE RES PONDENT : Okay .

THE COURT : Her t e s t imony wa s that Penny Hanco c k

a g r e e d t o be t he therap i s t

THE RES PONDENT : Right .

THE COURT : - - on t he condit i on that she not be

1 8 subpoenaed .

1 9 THE RES PONDENT : Um-hrnrn .

2 0 THE COURT : That i s d i f f erent than s a ying that

2 1 minor s ' coun s e l a s ked that that be a condit ion .

2 2 THE RES PONDENT : O ka y . O ka y , fine . Thank you ,

2 3 Your Hono r , f o r c l a r i fying t hat . Now I do have one

2 4 que s t i on , i t ' s p robab l y my l a st .

2 5 Q . Ms . Van Beve r e n , wa s I contacted at a l l , g i ven the fact

2 6 that I wa s - - s t i l l had j oint l e g a l cust ody , and a s you s a i d

2 7 befo r e , y o u wanted Penny t he g i r l s t o g o into t he r ap y

2 8 with Penny Hancock pr1or t o S eptembe r 2 4 t h , did you contact

SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 3 5

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me regarding that o r do you reca l l Apr i l Berger cont act ing

me a t a l l as far as my i nput into t hat , g iven the fact that

I - - a s a having j oint l e g a l custody I had a r i ght t o be

cont acted and con s u l t ed in choo s ing who my daugh t e r s could

and wou ld s e e ? Do you reca l l me be i ng contacted at a l l or

my attorney Tom Pena at that t ime being cont acted?

THE W I TNES S : Do you want me to a n swer that ? I

feel that i s part o f - - I don ' t see any h a rm i n what I woul d

s a y , b u t i t ' s part o f m y role a s minor s ' coun s e l .

THE COURT : You know , I don ' t know anyth i ng about

t h i s c a s e . Answer the que s t i on i f you woul d .

THE W I TNE S S : I know that the cho i c e o f coun s e l

w a s d i s c u s s e d w i t h t he attorneys for b o t h p a r t i e s .

THE RES PONDENT :

Q . R i ght .

A . And Mr . Pena would be abl e to ver i fy that .

Q . Um-hmm .

A . As t o t h e f i n a l s e l ection o f Penny Hanco c k , I know that

I de f i n i t e l y woul d have s upported h e r s e l e c t i on a s mino r s '

coun s e l - - o r a s a therapist for the chi l dren i n my r o l e as

minor s ' couns e l . My rea soning for who wa s p i c ked and who

wasn ' t by the j udge , I h ave -- I did not have cont r o l ove r

t hat . You ' d h ave t o a s k the two att orneys , your a t t o rney

and M s . Berger ' s attorney , what obj e ct ions o r s upport they

had i n s e l e c t i ng Ms . Hancoc k . Al l I did wa s di s cu s s the

mat t e r with M s . Hancock t o see if she would be w i l l ing t o do

i t , and she w a s w i l l i ng unde r the p arame t e r s that I h ave

stated a l ready , and an orde r w a s dra ft e d to meet those

SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 3 6

1 guide l i ne s that s he reque s t e d . And - -

2 THE COURT : Period .

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THE RES PONDENT : O ka y .

THE W ITNES S : I don ' t know what e l s e I can s a y .

THE RES PONDENT : You answered the que s t i on . Thank

6 you . I gue s s I have no more que s t ions for Ms . Van Beveren .

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THE COURT : Mr . S o ko l .

MR . SOKOL : No que s t i on s . I have one .

THE COURT : What ?

MR . S OKOL : One .

REDI RECT EXAM I NAT I ON BY MR . SOKOL :

Q . At s ome point you were reaching for the g i r l s ; had you

c a l l e d -- or a s ked the secretary to ca l l the kids ' mother at

that t ime ?

A .

Q .

P r i o r t o that , ye s .

And why were you reaching for t hem?

1 7 A . So t hat he couldn ' t t a ke t hem f rom my o f f i c e . I wanted

1 8 to keep t hem there for mother t o p i c k up at my o f f i ce .

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Q .

A .

2 1 wa s .

Why did you want that ?

Because I w a s a fr a i d o f h im driving them a s up s e t a s he

2 2 Q . Thank you .

2 3 MR . SOKOL : I have no other que st ions .

2 4 THE COURT : I have one que s t i on . Were the

2 5 daught e r s brought t o your o f f i ce by the i r fathe r ?

2 6 THE W I TNE S S : Y e s .

2 7 THE COURT : Wa s the p l an at t he out s e t for the

2 8 father to t a ke them when he l e f t ?

SACRAMENTO O FF I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 3 7

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THE W ITNES S : Y e s .

THE COURT : And then l a t e r that n ight there was

3 going t o be an exchange ?

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THE W ITNES S : Correct .

THE COURT : O ka y , thanks . I unde r s t and the

6 l ands cape . You are excus ed .

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1 4 way .

THE W I TNES S : Thank you , Your Honor .

THE COURT : Let ' s t a ke a b re a k for t en mi nute s .

THE RES PONDENT : Than k you , Your Honor .

THE W ITNES S : Am I free to l eave , Your Hono r ?

THE COURT : As f a r a s I ' m conce rned .

MR . SOKOL : Y e s .

THE COURT : Let ' s ma ke it f i fteen minut e s , by the

1 5 ( Whe r eupon a b r e a k was t a ken in t he proceedings . )

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THE COURT : Mr . S o ko l , who would you l i ke t o cal l ?

MR . SOKOL : Dr . Apr i l Berge r .

THE COURT : Come on up .

THE CLERK : P l e a s e r a i s e your r ight hand . Do you

2 0 s o l emnl y s t a t e the t e s t imony you are about t o give i n the

2 1 cause now pending be fore thi s Court sha l l be the t ruth , the

2 2 whol e t ruth , and nothing but the truth?

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THE W ITNES S : I do .

THE C LERK : P l e a s e be s e a t ed and s t a t e your f u l l

2 5 name for the r e c o rd .

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THE W I TNE S S : Apr i l Ann Berge r .

THE COURT : Thank you . Mr . S o ko l .

MR . SOKOL : Thank you , Your Honor .

SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------3 8

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APRI L BERGE R ,

c a l l e d a s a w i tn e s s on beha l f o f t h e Pet i t i one r , a ft e r f i r s t

being dul y sworn , t e s t i f i e d a s fol l ows :

D I RECT EXAMI NAT I ON BY MR . SOKOL :

5 Q . Dr . Berge r , you f i l ed the r e s t ra i n i ng o rder i n t h i s

6 case ?

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A .

Q .

Ye s , I did .

Why did you do s o ?

A . I wa s a l a rmed b y the behavior - - e s ca l at i on o f behavior

o f my chi ldren ' s fathe r in the attorney ' s o f f i ce , and I was

a fr a i d for my and t he i r s a fet y .

THE COURT : Mr . S o ko l , can I a s k a que s t i on , the

que s t ion that h a s been s ort of i n the ba c k of my mind s ince

the moment I reviewed t hi s ; I s igned t h i s on October 1 s t , I

s i gned i t because I wa s a l a rmed a t the s i tuat i on involving

the chi ldren b a s ed upon the a l l egat ions and the a l l eged

1 7 conduct vi s -a - v i s minor s ' couns e l . You have cu s t ody orde r s

1 8 in pl ace , a s I unde r s t and i t you have supe rvi s ed vi s i t a t i on

1 9 in p l a ce , why i s there a need f o r a r e s t raining orde r ?

2 0 MR . S OKOL : Wel l , becaus e the custody orde r s wi l l

2 1 prevent h a rm t o t he chi l dren , but my c l i e nt - - hope ful l y

2 2 my c l ient does need r e s t ra i n i ng o rder s becau s e o f t h e

2 3 viol ent behavi o r o f M r .

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beca u s e

T H E COURT : O f what ?

MR . S OKOL : Of Mr . S a under s .

THE COURT : Wel l , i t bet t e r be against h e r

T H E RES PONDENT : I - -

SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT REPORTERS ---------3 9

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THE COURT : -- you know , E l a i ne Van Beve ren i s not

going to be a protected p a rt y .

MR . S OKOL : I unde r s t and .

THE COURT : The kids are a l r e ady protected . So I

j u st want t o ma ke sure we are a l l on t he s ame page here .

MR . SOKOL : Ye s .

THE COURT : Okay .

MR . SOKOL :

9 Q . Dr . Berge r , in t h i s matt e r we re you orde red t o go to

1 0 anger management with Jac k Love and with Mr . S aunde r s ?

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A . Ye s , we were .

THE RES PONDENT : Obj e c t i on , Your Hono r , that i s

inaccurat e . I t wasn ' t i t wa s coup l e s coun s e l l ing , not

anger management .

THE COURT : Mr . S aunde r s , when i t ' s your t u rn t o

a s k que s t ions you c a n correct h e r in t hat f a s h i on .

THE RES PONDENT : O ka y . Thank you , Your Honor .

apologi z e . I ' m new t o t hi s , I ' m not sure o f a l l the

1 9 procedure s . I appreciate your di rect ion .

2 0 MR . S OKOL :

2 1 Q . What , i f anything , happened at those - - that mee t i ng

2 2 with Mr . Love ?

2 3 A . I n our s e s s i on s w i t h Jac k Love , Bob wa s - - Robe rt

2 4 Saunder s wa s cont inua l l y verba l l y aggre s s ive , j umped at

I

2 5 acro s s the cha i r s between us , pointed finge r s , enough t ime s

2 6 where M r . Love a s ked him t o s top s ever a l t ime s . He r e fused

2 7 to s t op , he kept lunging , poi nt ing , cur s i ng me t o the point

2 8 where Jac k Love ended the s e s s ions , told me t o go to my car

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 4 0

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and leave and that Robert wa s t o s t a y in the room unt i l I

was s a fe l y i n my c a r and gone . And he ended the s e s s ions

a ft e r that because he t hought t hat -- I a s sume t hat they

were not fruit ful because o f the con t i nued aggr e s s ion and

ye l l ing a t me .

Q . O ka y . And did he s a y go t o your ca r ?

A . H e s a i d g o t o your car . I want you t o s t a y here , I

want you t o go t o your c a r and l eave .

Q . Did he keep Mr . S aunder s there ?

A . He kept him there i n h i s o f fi ce unt i l I was gone and --

Q . And why i f you know , why did h e keep h im there and

let you l eave ?

A . I a s sume because he feared for my s a fe t y t o u s l eaving

both t o the par king lot a t the s ame t ime . B y t h i s t ime I

wa s sha king and crying and a l a rmed b y the

Q . Why were you sha king and c rying a t t ha t t ime ?

A . Because he was j umping out o f h i s cha i r , cursing me ,

s aying things were a l l my faul t , j abbing h i s finger a t the

a i r a t me , i n the o f f i c e of Jac k Love .

Q . We re you s ub s e quent l y r e f e rred t o Karen Harold?

A . Ye s , we were concerned [ s i c ] t o Karen Harol d .

Q . B y whom?

A . B y the Court , I be l ieve unde r E la ine Van Beveren ' s

sugge s t ion .

Q . I s she a con f l ict coach ?

A . Con f l ict coaching .

Q . What , i f anything , happened the r e ?

A . During those s e s s ions M r . S aunder s cont inued t o

SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 4 1

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verba l l y berate me and ye l l a t me , point h i s finger at me ,

j ab , s a y that things were a l l my fault . She would nume rous

t ime s t e l l h im t o s top , that wa s n ' t fruit ful for con f l i ct

management . S he woul d , on ever y s e s s ion , h ave h im s t a y in

the room and h ave me go t o my car f i r s t , or at l e a s t she

woul d s omet ime s fol low -- she woul d ma ke sure I got i n my

car and l e f t f i r s t during those s e s s i on s .

Q . Did you become f e a r fu l when he wa s shout ing and ye l l ing

at you ?

A . Y e s , because o f the degree o f h i s behavior s e emed t o

be come mo re b i z ar r e a n d more aggr e s s ive .

Q . At s ome point did you - - you own a home , do you not ?

A . Ye s , I do .

Q . And M r . S aunde r s l i ved with you a t t ha t home ; i s t hat

correct ?

A . Ye s , he did .

Q . At s ome point did you a s k h im t o l eave ?

A . I a s ked h im t o l eave ; h e refused t o do s o . There wa s

a - -

T H E COURT : Excuse me , Couns e l , c a n w e at s ome

point get to s ome decade s , yea r s , month s or s omething? I

have no idea when Jac k Love wa s invo lved , I have no i de a

when Karen H a r o l d w a s involve d , and I have n o idea when

these people l ived togethe r o r what she is about t o t e s t i fy

to .

MR . S OKOL : Thank you , Your Honor .

Q . The anger management with Jac k Love wa s done when?

A . I bel ieve i t was previous t o the S eptembe r date .

SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------4 2

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Q .

A .

Q .

A .

Septembe r o f ' 0 8 ?

Ye s , it w a s previous t o that by seve r a l months .

Okay . And Karen --

Karen Harol d . We were s e e i ng h e r during a f t e r Jac k

5 Love , t hen we were refe r red t o Karen Harold . S o we s aw he r

6 probabl y - - I ' m not sure o f t he exact dat e s , but , you know ,

7 Jul y , Augu s t , Septembe r , becau s e on one o f those i n c i dent s

8 Ka ren Harold was s ending repor t s on how our s e s s ions were

9 going for the court , and a ft e r the S ep t embe r 2 3 rd inc ident

1 0 i n E l ai ne ' s o f fi ce Robert l e ft a vo i ce ma i l on Karen

1 1 Harol d ' s t e l ephone l ine t hat she t ra n s c r ibed and made

1 2 ava i l ab l e f o r the court , I be l i eve i t ' s i n the document s ,

1 3 that Robe rt s a id t o t he e f fe c t that he had been s crewed by

1 4 the court , that E l a ine had a t t a c ked him and h i s chi l dren and

1 5 i t a l l j u st went to h e c k i n a handbas ket and i t wa s a l l

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E l a i ne ' s faul t .

Q . So t h i s i nvolvement with M s . Harold wa s s omewh e r e

a round S eptembe r - - Jul y to S eptember o f ' 0 8 ?

A . Ye s .

Q . And when the l a t e s t thing I was a s k i ng about , when you

a s ked M r . S aunde r s to l eave your hous e , when wa s tha t ?

A . I a s ked h im t o l eave my house i n Jun e o f ' 0 6 , a round

that t ime , a ft e r we had been t hrough three ma r r i age

coun s e l o r s . The l a s t of whom, Barba ra Goldbe rg , sugge sted

to me for my s a fe t y that I s hould end the re l a t i onship , that

there was no -- be in my and t he chi ldren ' s b e s t i n t e re s t .

I a s ked Robert t o l eave on my own ; he r e fused t o do s o . I

remember one inc ident a r ound t hat t ime i n Jun e / Ju l y o f ' 0 6 I

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 4 3

1 wa s i n my kitche n , Bob was at the r e f r i gerat o r , the g i r l s

2 were i n a very back bedroom, and I s a i d , you know , i t

3 doe s n ' t h ave t o be thi s way , j us t p l e a s e l eave . He refused

4 t o do s o , became real l y ve rb a l l y aggre s s ive . He s l ammed the

5 r e f r i ge r a t o r door and l unged at me , and I b e l i eve he would

6 have h i t me , except for my daught e r Jul i a came f rom the back

7 o f the bedroom on her s coot e r and s a i d , daddy , daddy , don ' t

8 ye l l at mom, s t op s creaming a t my mothe r , don ' t h i t my

9 mothe r , s omething t o those e ffect .

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Q . Did he swear a t you at that t ime ?

THE COURT : Jus t s o we are c l e a r , the incident she

i s t e s t i f ying t o i s not in t h e app l i ca t i on , s o I ' m not going

to con s ide r i t .

THE RES PONDENT : Than k you , Your Honor .

THE W I TNE S S : I t h i n k i t i s .

THE COURT : No , page 2 o f 2 , DV- 1 0 1 , s t a r t s o f f

with "When I t o l d Robert t h a t there wa s a court order

requ i r i ng h im t o l e ave , " and I woul d sugge s t that what you

are t a l king about preda t e s a court orde r .

THE W I TNES S : Okay .

MR . S OKOL :

Q . At some point did you t e l l Mr . Saunde r s that you had

obta ined a court order for h im t o l eave ?

A . Ye s , I d i d , and those were s e rved on him . They s t ayed

2 5 on our porch for a numb e r o f days wher e he wal ked ove r them .

2 6 On Jul y 1 s t I l e f t with the chi ldren and c a l led the

2 7 she r i f f ' s department because there wa s an evi ct i on not i ce

2 8 for him and he w a s re fus ing t o l e ave . The she r i f f came , my

SACRAMENTO O FF I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 4 4

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1 mother wa s there , I l e ft with t he chi l dren s o they didn ' t

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have t o w i t ne s s t h i s . My mom c a l led a l o c k smith t o change

the l o c ks , and Bob re fused to l eave unt i l the s h er i f f told

h im he had t o l e ave . He got two or three bags o f h i s

belongings and l e ft and t h e l o c ks were changed . He t o l d my

mothe r he woul d b r e a k i n and he cursed her .

THE COURT : Okay, t h i s - - t h i s i s hears a y . I

mean , i f you want t o c l ean i t up , fine , but j us t s o we are

clea r , I ' m going to i gnore anything that is not admi s s ible .

Q .

MR . S OKOL : Thank you , Your Hono r .

THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Honor .

MR . SOKOL :

Aft e r that - - s o he did not l eave volunt a r i l y ?

A . He did not l eave vo l unt a ri l y . The sheri f f ' s department

enforced the evict ion not ice and he l e ft --

Q . Than k you .

A . -- with the sher i f f .

Q . S i nce that t ime h a s he been abus ive ve rba l l y o r

phys i c a l l y w i t h you ?

A . I n the court -orde red anger management s e s s ions with

Jac k Love and with Karen Harold .

Q . O ka y . Did he come t o your wor k a t any t ime ?

A . Previous t o me - - a round the t ime that he was evicted,

Jul y , he came to my office and screamed and ye l l ed and

banged on f i l e cabine t s in f ront o f my co -wor ke r s .

THE COURT : I don ' t b e l i eve that i s i n t h e

2 7 appl i ca t i on .

2 8 THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Honor .

SACRAMENTO OFFIC IAL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 4 5

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MR . SOKOL : I t h i n k that - -

T H E W I TNE S S : I t ' s i n the court r ecord , t hough ,

t hat I have witne s s s ta t ement s .

THE COURT : I don ' t care . I t cou l d be a po l i ce

report , i t could be a convict ion .

MR . SOKOL : I s the - -

THE COURT : Ju st s o we are c l e a r , a DV app l i ca t i on

i s f r amed b y the app l icat ion , p l u s whatever events occurred

a ft e r i t wa s s e rved -- or actua l l y what ever event s occurred

a f t e r it was f i l e d .

MR . SOKOL : O ka y .

THE COURT : So that - - I mean , that i s only f a i r

to Mr . S aunde r s .

Hono r .

MR . SOKOL : I have no prob l em with that , Your

THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Hono r .

MR . SOKOL :

Q . The rea s on I ' m a s king t h e s e que s t ions i s my que s t i on t o

Dr . Berger i s i s that behavio r cons i st ent w i t h what h a s been

t e s t i f i ed t o s o far f rom his point of view?

A . Ye s , h i s behavio r .

Q . Have the chi ldren been s ub j ected to ye l l i ng by Mr .

with threats and anger d i s p l a yed in the i r pre s ence b y

Mr . S aunde r s ?

MR . SAUNDERS : Obj e ct ion , Your Hono r , he i s

l eading t he witnes s .

THE COURT : Susta ined .

MR . S OKOL :

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Q . Have the chi ldren been p r e sent when Mr . S aunde r s did

any yel l i ng o r s creaming ?

A . Ye s , they have .

Q . Now , were you - - you heard t e s t imony o f t he chi l dren ' s

attorney here ; on 9 - 2 3 - 0 8 , the day before the hear ing , did

you receive a ca l l from the chi ldren ' s attorney?

A . I had nume rous me s s ages on my ce l l phone .

Q . From?

A . From her of fice , E l a ine Van Beveren .

Q . Were you fearful , based on those me s s a ge s , for t he

chi l dren ?

A . Ye s , I wa s , but by t he t ime I rece ived t hem , the i r

pate rna l g randmother had del ivered t hem back t o me about a

ha l f hour l a t e .

Q . And why a r e the children l i s ted a s p rotected p e r sons in

the r e s t raining orde r ?

A . I a s ked for them to be l i s ted a s we l l because

immediat e l y after Judge Ba l onon ' s s upervi sed l eve l -t hree

vis i t s , Bob l e ft from the Court , went to the s choo l , and was

t a l king with the chi ldren about what happened . I had been

there a t the s ame t ime i n Chri s t i e Va l e [ phone t i c ] , t he

principa l ' s o f f i c e , g iving h e r the new court orde r s , and she

didn ' t rea l i ze he was there a l ready t a l king with the

chi ldren when she a s ked them t o come into her o f f i ce .

Q . When wa s t h i s ?

A . T h i s w a s on Jul y - - S ep t embe r 2 4 t h , ' 0 8 .

Q . And thi s i s a ft e r t he o rde r s were made that he - ­

A . The s ame

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Q . - - the supervi sed - -

A . That s ame - - immedi a t e l y a ft e r l eaving court , t hat

a fte rnoon at s chool .

Q . Wa s Mr . S aunde r s pre sent in court when the j udge

o rde red no contact , other than -- other than s upervi sed

cont a ct with t h e chi ldren?

A . He was .

THE COURT : Coul d I get s ome c l a r i f i ca t i o n f rom

you , Mr . S o ko l , was Mr . S aunder s repre s ented at t hat t ime ?

MR . SOKOL : I don ' t hone s t l y rememb e r . I be l i eve

he had an a t t o rney . He has had , I t h i n k , four now , s o I

can ' t r emember .

THE COURT : Okay, we l l - -

MR . S OKOL : He mu st have had an a t t o rney .

THE W I TNE S S : I bel ieve - -

T H E RES PONDENT : Y o u r Hono r , I wa s n o t repre s ented

by coun s e l . My couns e l , Tom Pena , had s ub s t ituted out , I

b e l i eve , that morning o r t he evening before .

THE COURT : Let me j us t - -

THE RES PONDENT :

record regarding that .

I can get s ome paperwo r k for the

you .

THE COURT : Pro p e r p e r the minute o rde r . Thank

MR . SOKOL : Thank you , Your Honor .

Q . Was there a point a ft e r t h i s 9 - 2 4 - 0 8 hearing that

Mr . S aunde r s a t t empted t o contact the chi ldren ?

A . That very a ft e rnoon on our home answering ma chine there

wa s a me s s age , on S eptembe r 2 4 t h o f ' 0 8 , from Robert t o the

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1 g i r l s s a y ing p l e a s e conta ct me , contact my fami l y , you know ,

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you know the phone numbe r s .

que s t ion

produced

kind o f

T H E RES PONDENT : Obj ect i on , Your Honor .

THE W I TNE S S : I immediat e l y

THE RES PONDENT : Hearsay evi dence . I - - I

why Mr . S o ko l and M s . - - and M s . Berger have

phone records t hat would a l lege to - -

THE COURT : Let ' s b a c k up . The purpo s e o f

t e s t imony i s not for t h e t ruth o f what she i s

not

t h i s

t e st i fy ing t o , i t ' s for the impact , i f any , on h e r own state

1 1 of mind . Give me one s e cond becaus e I t h i n k i t wi l l help i f

1 2 I read t h i s incredib l y long order here . Ho l d on a s e cond .

1 3 I j us t want ed t o ma ke a point , the o rde r s o f

1 4 S ept embe r 2 4 t h , not t o c r i t i c i ze a c o l l eague , which means

1 5 I ' m not c r i t i c i z i ng a c o l league , do not p revent Mr . S aunde rs

1 6 from cont a c t i n g h i s chi l dren , by phone a t l e a s t . B y

1 7 imp l i ca t i on they certainly prevent h im from phys i c a l l y being

1 8 with h i s chi ldren , but unl e s s s omebody can point out t o me

1 9 where on t h i s three-page handwritten order there i s a

2 0 proh i b i t i on against h im phoning them , e -ma i l ing them ,

2 1 t ext i ng t hem - - I obvious l y unde r s t and how t h e s e department s

2 2 work and I do under st and t he l imitat ions of l aw and mot ion

2 3 hearings and t he d i f f i cu l t y o f t rying t o w r i t e out orde r s ,

2 4 but t he DVRO w a s not i n place on Septembe r 2 5 th o r 2 6t h or

2 5 what ever dat e we are at now . I t was n ' t i n p l a c e unt i l

2 6 October 1 . S o I j u st wanted t o point that out .

2 7

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THE RES PON DENT : Thank you , Your Honor .

MR . SOKOL : I ' m t a l king about t he court order

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i s sued by Judge Ba l onon on 9 - 2 4 , Your Honor . That i s what

we h ave been t a l king about .

THE COURT : That i s what I j us t read . Show me

where i t s a y s t here i s no contact a l lowed .

MR . S OKOL : Where i t says s o l e l e g a l and s o l e

phys i ca l cus t ody to moth e r .

THE COURT : Where doe s that s a y he can ' t t a l k to

h i s chi ldren on the phone? All I ' m saying i s if that had

been the de s i r e , s omebody s hould have r a i s e d i t at the t ime .

MR . SOKOL : O ka y .

Q . Were you in court on March 9 t h when Mr . S aunde r s wa s

present w i t h Judge Matt Gary ?

A . Ye s , I wa s .

Q . And what - - did you obs e rve the behavi o r o f

Mr . S aunder s a t t ha t t ime ?

A . Ye s , I d i d .

THE RES PONDENT : Obj e c t i on , Your Honor , I ' m t rying

to wonde r why that they are con s t ant l y b ringing that up . I t

s ounds l i ke t h e y are on a f i shing e xpedi t i on t o - - what doe s

that have t o do w i t h the r e s t r a in ing order which was f i led

by Apr i l Berger because she s omehow said - - she made

a l l egat ion s that she f e a red f o r h e r s a fe t y and we l l -being ,

et cetera , e t cetera ? What doe s that have to do w i t h court ,

I had no cont act w i th h e r ?

THE COURT : Mr . S o ko l , would you l i ke to re spond?

MR . SOKOL : Ye s , Your Hono r . The behavi o r - - the

que s t i on that - - that was a p re l iminary que s t i o n , the

fo l low-up que stion was did you obs e rve his behavior at that

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t ime and wa s t ha t the behavi o r about whi ch you comp l a ined in

your re s t ra i ni ng o rde r ?

THE W I TNE S S : Yes .

MR . SOKOL :

Q . We re you pre sent when the Court o rdered that he go

though a ps ych o l o g i c a l t e s t ing , complete ps ycho l og i c a l

t e s t ing ?

A . Ye s . Y e s , I was .

Q . Do you know whether o r not that h a s occurred?

A . To my knowl edge i t ' s not occurred s ince i t wa s o rdered .

Q . Are you a fr a id o f M r . S a unde r s before he gets

psych i a t r i c t reatment ?

A . Y e s . T h i s i s not the p e r s on I met ten ye a r s ago .

Q . Are you a fr a id f o r your chi l dren ?

A . I ' m a f r a i d for my chi ldren a s wel l .

Q . Have you - - ha s Mr . Saunder s attempted t o a l i enate the

children from you ?

A . Ye s , he h a s .

Q . I n what way?

A . I n nume rous ways . He h a s t o l d them i n Van Beve ren ' s

o f fi ce , a s s he j ust t e s t i f i e d , that the i r mother i s a l i a r .

Penny Hanco c k h a s t o l d me that he h a s a s ked t hem t o ca l l him

after t he r e s t ra ining orde r , he has t o l d them t o t a ke not e s

on me .

THE RES PONDENT : Obj e c t i on , Your Hono r , hea r s a y

evidence . Whe re are the fact s ?

THE COURT : Fi r s t o f a l l , the obj e c t i on i s

s u s t a i ned , but i t ' s s u s t ained p r ima r i l y becaus e it ' s not

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THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Honor .

MR . SOKOL :

Q . Are you reque s t ing that t h e s e t emporary r e s t ra i n ing

orde r s be come pe rmanent r e s t r a ining orde r s ?

A . I am .

Q . Prot ect ing you , t he chi l dren , f rom -- your s e l f , your

home , your o f f i ce , the s choo l and the l e a rning cent e r ?

A . I am .

Q .

A .

What i s the l earning cent e r ?

The l e a rning cent e r i s a math and tutoring p l ace t hat

1 2 the g i r l s were r e ce iving math tutoring a t .

1 3 MR . S OKOL : Thank you . I have no further

1 4 que s t ions .

1 5 THE COURT : Ju st t o b e c l e a r , a t s ome point a l ong

1 6 the road here s omebody s hould h ave modi f i ed t h i s r e s t ra ining

1 7 orde r , even i n i t s t emporary s t at e , t o a l low b r i e f and

1 8 peace ful conta ct for court-ordered vi s i t at i on . So

1 9 theoret i c a l l y - - anyway , I ' m j us t pointing that out . I t ' s

2 0 neve r been done . I t should h ave been done a l ong t ime ago .

2 1 THE RES PONDENT : Than k you , Your Honor .

2 2 MR . SOKOL : I t ' s been reupped seve r a l t ime s and

2 3 it ' s - -

2 4 THE COURT : We l l , you know - -

2 5 MR . SOKOL : I know what the Court i s s a ying , but

2 6 the orders app e a r to s a y t hat t here should be no contact , by

2 7 imp l i ca t i on .

2 8 THE COURT : Yeah . You know , i t ' s a common

SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 5 2

1 prob l em .

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MR . SOKOL : Cert a in l y

THE COURT : Obvi ou s l y I ' m pre s uming that

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vi s i t a t ion h a s t a ke n p l a ce . Maybe i t h a sn ' t .

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MR . SOKOL : Supe rvi s e d . Now none , but

THE RES PONDENT : S i nce S ept ember 2 4 th .

THE W I TNES S : There - - a s o f March 3 rd there i s no

conta ct w i t h t he i r fathe r at a l l .

THE RES PONDENT : March 9 t h .

THE WITNE S S : March 9 t h , excuse me .

THE RES PONDENT : Judge Gary ordered - - h e ended my

1 2 supervi sed v i s i t a t ion without me r i t and j us t i f i cat ion .

1 3 THE COURT : O ka y . S i r , your witne s s .

1 4 THE RES PONDENT : O ka y . Thank you , Your Honor .

1 5 Fi r s t , l e t me s a y I obj ect t o Apr i l ' s t e s t imony . She h a s

1 6 commi tted mul t ip l e count s of p e r j ury . And rega rding h e r

1 7 hears a y evidence , I have no abi l i t y t o que s t ion the people

1 8 Apr i l a l l eged I mi sbehaved i n front o f , Jac k Love , who we

1 9 s aw i n l a t e Spring 2 0 0 8 , I be l i eve i t wa s two v i s i t s with

2 0 him, and I ' l l que s t ion h e r about that , and then a l s o Karen

2 1 Haro l d , the s umme r o f 2 0 0 8 . I a s k that h e r t e s t imony

2 2 regarding Jac k Love and Karen Harold be thrown out .

2 3 THE COURT : The obj ect i on i s over ru l ed . To the

2 4 extent that there ' s hea r s a y , i t ' s admi s s ib l e a s t o h e r state

2 5 o f mi nd , not t o the t ruth of the mat te r . As to what she

2 6 pe r s ona l l y witne s s e d , you can c r o s s -examine h e r .

2 7 THE RES PONDENT : O ka y . Thank you , Your Honor .

2 8 CRO S S -EXAM I NAT I ON BY THE RES PON DENT :

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Q . Apr i l , do you reca l l that in Jac k Love ' s o f f i ce when --

do you reca l l Jac k Love stat ing t hat often - - the f i r s t t ime

we were there , t hat often i t ' s di f f i cu l t regarding when

c a s e s a re going on for thi s p roce s s t o wor k ? When there are

active c a s e s going on usua l l y h e - - do you reca l l what he

said about t ha t ?

A . I r emember a conve r s at i on , s omething t o the e f fect that

t h i s is a cont ent i ous case and t hat i t w i l l make it

d i f f i cu l t for us t o get progre s s , but , you know , I ' m here to

h e lp you and -- s omething a l ong those l i ne s . I don ' t

rememb e r h i s exact s t a t ement .

Q . You a l l e g e that there w a s one t ime , the s econd t ime we

were there , that I j umped up , I -- you know , did whateve r ,

that there was t h reat ening behavior t owa rds you , whatever

you a l l e ge ; do you reca l l what - - exact l y what Jac k Love did

1 6 at that moment , i f anything?

17 A . He wa rned you seve r a l t ime s t o s t op your agg r e s s ive

1 8 ye l l ing , f inger-pointing behavi o r , t o s t op . You refused to

1 9 do that , s o he s a i d I ' m ending thi s s e s s i on , the s e s s ion i s

2 0 ove r . Apr i l , I want you t o go t o your c a r . Robert , you

2 1 stay here . I ' m ending our s e s s i on . And that i s when I l e f t

2 2 and you s t a yed i n the o ff i ce .

2 3 Q . So your t e s t imony i s t ha t what he s a id w a s that he

2 4 ordered me t o s t a y there and for you t o l e ave f i r s t ; i s that

2 5 what you are s t a t ing?

2 6 A . He did t e l l me t o g o f i r st and for you t o s t a y there ,

2 7 that i s my r e co l l e c t i on .

2 8 Q . Okay . I t wasn ' t that he gave - - do you reca l l h im

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giving u s a choice a s t o who coul d leave f i r s t a ft e r he

ended - - de c ided t o end the s e s s i on because he f e l t that we

3 would not ma ke progre s s given t he f a ct t hat we were i n

4 l i t i ga t i on , an ongo ing l it iga t ion? Do you reca l l that he

5 gave us a choi ce a s t o who woul d l eave f i r s t and s t ated that

6 i t doe s n ' t mat te r , e i th e r way ?

7 MR . SOKOL : The que s t ion conta i ns an awful lot o f

8 s i de i nnuendo s . I wonde r i f h e cou l d s impl y a s k the

9 que s t ion .

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1 1 Q .

THE RES PONDENT : Sure .

Do you reca l l that what Dr . Love actua l l y did was o f f e r

1 2 u s a choice a s t o who could l eave f i r s t and i t didn ' t mat t e r

1 3 who , e i t h e r one o f u s , i t ' s up to u s ?

1 4 A . I don ' t r emember him exact l y g iving us a choice . I

1 5 know h e l o o ked a t me and s a i d , go t o your c a r , and t o l d you

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t o s t a y there .

Q . What wa s s t ated i n the mee t i n g with Dr . Love ?

A . What wa s s t ated?

Q . Yeah , what were t he kinds of things that were d i s cu s s ed

in t h e mee t ing w i th Dr . Love ?

A . He was t r ying t o get u s t o - - you know , I gue s s be - -

get a l ong and b e able t o di s cu s s and co-parent our c h i l dren

e f fe c t i ve l y without r a i s ing our voi ce s , accus ing each other ,

and point ing f inge r s , and that wa s t he purpo s e o f our v i s i t .

That was a f t e r you had been court o rdered t o see Ron Brown ,

an anger management therap i s t , and he ended t ho s e v i s i t s ,

and then the court ordered Jac k Love . S o he was our s e cond ,

and Ka ren Love w a s our t h i rd anger management .

SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------5 5

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THE COURT : Karen Harold?

THE W I TNE S S : Karen Haro l d , excus e me , w a s our

t h i rd court ordered -- I gue s s she ca l l s her s e l f a con f l i ct

coach .

THE RES PONDENT :

6 Q . R i ght , conf l i ct coaching . Ri ght , that i s what she

7 does . You t e s t i f ie d that there was a me s sage I l e f t on

8 Ka ren Harold ' s machine , voice machine , and that I made

9 negat ive comment s about the Court and that I s t a te d about

1 0 having the - - our daugh t e r s and mys e l f being a s s aulted by

1 1 we l l , a t t empt e d a s sault on one o f my daught e r s , but a s s ault

1 2 on mys e l f and one o f our daughte r s , b y M s . Van Beve ren the

1 3 n i ght before ; do you remember what e l s e I s a i d i n that

14 statement , why I couldn ' t ma ke it t o the mee t i n g that n i ght ?

1 5 A . I have a copy o f h e r report r i ght there on my de s k that

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you can read exact l y what s he t ranscribed your voice

me s s age , if you woul d l i ke . You l e f t t he me s s age on her

ma chine .

Q . Um-hmm .

A . And I have a copy on the de s k there o f h e r - -

THE COURT : The que s t ion wa s do you r e ca l l the

reason why he couldn ' t ma ke t he meet ing .

THE RES PONDENT : That i s r i ght . Thank you , Your

Hono r , for c l a r i fying that .

THE W I TNE S S : I don ' t reca l l the rea s on he

couldn ' t ma ke the meet ing . The g i s t o f i t wa s that he wa s

comp l a i ning that E l a i ne Van Beveren a t t a c ked h im and that he

had b ee n , quote , unquote , s c rewed i n court that day .

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THE RES PONDENT :

Q . Do you r e ca l l me stat ing a t a l l that the r e a s on why I

couldn ' t attend i t wa s that I was inj ured a s a r e s u l t of

E l a ine Van Beveren ' s a s sault on my person and that is why I

couldn ' t ma ke - -

A . I t h i n k there i s s omething in t here , t he fact that you

had been -- that it was the other -- you were a l leging the

other way a round , t ha t E laine a t t a c ked you , that you had

been s c rewed in court , and --

Q . That wasn ' t the que s t ion , though .

A . What w a s your que st ion?

Q . My que s t i on wa s do you reca l l that in the t ra n s c r ipt

from the phone c a l l t hat I s t ated -- do you reca l l that I

stated that I couldn ' t ma ke i t - - I woul dn ' t be ab l e t o

attend the s e s s ion t h a t n i ght with Karen H a r o l d a s a result

of being inj ured a s a result o f E la i ne Van Beve ren a t t a c king

me and having i n j u r i e s s u s t a ined from that a t t a c k ?

A . I b e l ieve there i s s omething t o that e f fect .

Q . O ka y , than k you . You a l s o stated t hat we went t o - -

t h e l a s t therap i s t w e saw wa s Barbara Goldber g , and you

ment i oned about t ha t ; do you know t hat Barbara Gol dberg

do you reca l l o r do you know that B a rbara Goldberg was cited

by the Behavioral S c i ence Board and fined for unprofe s s ional

and une t h i c a l behavior a s a r e s u l t o f the comp l a in t

que s t ion .

MR . S OKOL : Ob j e ction , i rr e l evant .

THE COURT : Overruled . You can answer the

THE W ITNE SS : Barbara Goldberg wa s t he t h i rd

SACRAMENTO O FF I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 5 7

1 ma rri age and f ami l y coun s e lo r we have gone t o a s a coup l e ,

2 and I b e l i eve what you are r e ferring t o i s a - - she wrote a

3 character refe rence for me that I wa s a good mot h e r for the

4 court , and you obj ected becaus e s he had said that your

5 name , and you didn ' t l i ke j us t that your name was i n the

6 report , a nd that you made a comp l aint t o the t he rapy board

7 on that .

8 THE RES PONDENT :

9 Q . Do you r e ca l l that I comp l a ined about anything e l s e

1 0 regarding my comp la i nt about Barbar a Goldberg , bes ide s the

1 1 fact that she violated the e t h i c s o f h e r profe s s ion?

12 A . I ' m not sure what you a s ked me .

1 3 Q . We l l , do you know t hat there wa s anyth ing e l s e s t ated

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i n my compl a i nt about Barbara Goldb e r g ?

A . I never s aw your comp l a i nt about Barba r a Goldbe r g .

Q . Do you reca l l in any o f the court records i n

1 7 de c l a ra t ions that I made whe r e I stated s omething about

1 8 f i l ing a comp l aint against B a rbara Goldberg and that I

1 9 stated a l s o about how I felt that s h e wa s one - s i ded i n

2 0 h e r - - we l l , actua l l y , do you know what h e r a t t i tude wa s

2 1 t owards me ver s u s you ? Do you r e ca l l any t ime reading about

2 2 that i n any dec l a r a t i on s t ha t I wrot e ?

2 3 A . I don ' t reca l l any dec l arat i on s . I know you had i s sue

2 4 with a l l three therap i s t s that we saw . I t h i n k you l i ked

2 5 the second one a l i t t l e better t han t he f i r s t and the t h i rd

2 6 one , becaus e the s econd one was a man , I forget h i s name ,

2 7 the f i r s t one wa s a woma n , and Barbara Go ldbe rg wa s a woman .

2 8 THE RES PONDENT : I ' m t rying t o f i gure out how to

SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT RE PORTERS ---------5 8

1 phra s e a que s t ion , becaus e I f e e l t hat she i s s t a t ing

2 that - - and I a s k Your Honor how t o do t hat . She i s s t at ing

3 a s i f that because the p e r son , the s e cond one , t he

4 t herap i s t , was a man , that I l i ked h im bett e r t han the

5 othe r s , a s i f t hat i s r e l evant . I mean , the fact of h i s

6 gende r me ant nothing to me .

7 MR . SOKOL : I ' m not sure what the que s t i on i s ,

8 Your Hono r .

9 THE RES PONDENT : I ' m not sure what t o think

1 0 beca u s e how - - I ' m concerned becau s e she being a woman who

1 1 f i led wha t I b e l i eve

1 2 THE COURT : I gue s s you coul d j u s t a s k h e r the

1 3 que s t i on .

1 4 THE RES PONDENT : Okay . Yeah , o ka y , thank you .

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Q . Why do you feel t hat I you know , what you s a i d i s

that I l i ked t h e s e cond one the s e cond therap i s t better

than the first o r t he third; why do you f e e l I l i ked the

second therap i s t bett e r ?

A . Because you t o l d me you d i d yea r s ago , t h a t you

l i ked -- you thought we made s ome progre s s with t hat

therapi st .

Q . Okay . Good answe r , thank you . Do you know o f

s i tuat ions o r t ime s whe r e Jul i a and Laur a , our daught e r s ,

phoned me t o t e l l me about - - a ft e r S ep t embe r 2 4 th that they

phoned me and -- to t e l l me about certain s i t ua t ions that

were going on , t o l d me about what they d i s cus s e d with Penny

Hancock and things of t hat s o rt ? Becaus e you s t at ed that I

c a l l e d , s o I ' m j ust t rying t o ver i fy the fact t hat whether

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 5 9

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or not you know that they phoned me ?

A . Penny Hancoc k t o l d me - - t ol d me that the g i r l s t o ld

her that they had continued t o ca l l you and they were t o

4 t a ke not e s on my behavi or , and that

5 Q . Real l y ? S o what you are s t a t ing i s that I c a l l e d them?

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A .

Q .

A .

I don ' t know who

Should have pul l ed t he phone records .

I --

9 Q . That wasn ' t my que s t ion . My que s t i on wa s do you have

1 0 know l edge o f the g i r l s ca l l ing me a ft e r - - you know , a f t e r

1 1 Septembe r 2 4 t h , o r actua l l y the - - and a ft e r the r e s t r a ining

1 2 order was i n p l ace ?

1 3 A . Penn y Hanco c k h a s t o l d me i n t he s e s s ions w i t h t he

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g i r l s that t h e y h ave continued to cont act you .

who phoned who .

Q . O ka y .

I don ' t know

A . Did I witne s s t hem ma king a phone c a l l , n o . Did I s hut

my phone o f f and get a cel l phone and l e ave it in my pocket

so that behavi or couldn ' t happen a ft e r t he 3 0 t h , ye s .

Q . Another que s t i on i s do you have knowledge o f the g i rl s ,

2 1 Ju l i a and Laur a , our daughte r s , t e l l ing Penny Hanc o c k the

2 2 t ruth about what occurred i n E laine Van Beveren ' s o f f i c e on

2 3 September 2 3 rd , 2 0 0 8 ?

2 4 A . As E l a i ne h a s s t a t e d , t he g i r l s go into her o f f i ce

2 5 without me . I w a i t in t he w a i t i ng room . Maybe the l a s t

2 6 s o I don ' t know what they have t o l d he r , j u s t what Penny has

2 7 t o ld me they h ave s a i d a s far a s - - s o I don ' t know what

2 8 their di s cu s s i on s w i t h Penny Hancoc k a re .

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 6 0

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Q . And a r e you aware o f a phone ca l l I made t o Penny

Hancoc k s t a t ing t o -- on a me s s age I l e ft he r , s t a t ing t hat

the g i r l s c a l led me and t o ld me t ha t they had t o l d h e r that

4 I wa s - - that Jul ia was a s s au l t ed by - - Jul i a w a s a t t ac ked

5 by E laine Van Beveren and I was att a c ked by - - and she

6 pushed daddy and then t ried t o grab Laura , and t h e y t o l d

7 Penny Hanco c k that , and are you awa re o f that at a l l ,

8 beca u s e I know the g i r l s are ve ry hone s t ?

9 MR . SOKOL : There i s an awful lot o f t e s t imony

1 0 going o n here .

1 1 THE WITNE S S : I know you cont acted Penny Hancock

1 2 a ft e r t he r e s t r a i ning o rde r h a s been i n e f fect , maybe a

1 3 month o r two b e f o re , because she ca l led me , she ca l l ed

1 4 E l aine Van Beveren , and s he c a l led Richard S o ko l ' s o f f i ce

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too , and your att orney a t the t ime , who I b e l i eve wa s

Mr . Bowman .

Q .

A .

THE RES PONDENT :

Y e s .

To - - becau s e she - - Penny Hancock was a l a rmed t ha t you

2 0 we re not to h ave contact with h e r o f fi ce and you had done

2 1 s o , and you had s a i d that your attorney Bowman had t o l d you

2 2 t o do that . And I know Mr . B owman s ince s ent a l e t t e r to

2 3 Ms . Van Beve ren and M r . S o ko l s t a t ing that you - - that he

2 4 didn ' t t e l l you t o ca l l , because he wa s awa re o f the orders

2 5 where no one - - you were not t o contact her i n the p revious

2 6 court o rde r s . S o , yeah , I know you cal led h e r a ft e r you

2 7 were not to .

2 8 THE RES PONDENT : Your Hono r , I ' m t r ying t o f i gure

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out where i t s a y s i n any court orde r s that I ' m not a l l owed

to h ave any cont act with M s . Hanco c k , and j u s t

T H E COURT : Not my i s sue .

THE RES PONDENT : - - ma ke a s t a t ement .

THE COURT : Not an i s sue toda y , s o don ' t worry

about i t .

THE RES PONDENT : Okay .

THE COURT : And by that I ' m not t e l l ing you feel

free t o contact M s . Hanco c k .

THE RES PONDENT : No , I unde r s t and . I have no

purp o s e to do i t . I mean , you know , I re l i sh the fact t hat

my daught e r s a re having t he rapy because they de f i n i t e l y need

it as a r e s u l t of what t he s i tuat ion has been .

Q . S o b a s i c a l l y who t o l d you that - - becau s e I know i t was

stated i n Court b y Mr . S o ko l , I t h i n k e i ther on March 9 t h or

prior to that , that I threatened Ms . Hancoc k and wha t eve r ,

and that I made s ome a l l egat i on s o r whatever . I mean , who

t o ld you that or did you hear the me s s age , the t ap e me s s age ,

or the e l ectronic me s s age , that I l e ft on M s . Hancoc k ' s - -

A . Penny c a l led me direct l y .

Q . Um-hmm .

A . I a l s o heard from Richard S o ko l ' s o f f i ce t hat you had

contacted her .

Q . Could i t have been me r e l y that I l e ft a me s s a ge to let

her know that what happene d , that the g i r l s had ca l led me

and t o l d me that they t o l d - - when we met with Penny Hancock

we told her what happened and Penny Hancock s t ated s omething

that I don ' t unde r s tand why t h i s is going on , i t s ounds l i ke

SACRAMENTO OFFIC IAL COURT REPORTERS --------- 6 2

1 your daddy i s a good daddy , I don ' t unde r s t and why t h i s i s

2 happening , and the g i r l s s a i d h e i s a good daddy , I don ' t - -

3 we don ' t know why t h i s i s go i ng o n , and - -

4 MR . SOKOL : T h i s i s s e l f- s erving t e s t imony, Your

5 Honor .

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THE COURT : I f you heard a que s t i on in there you

can answer i t .

THE W I TNE S S : I d idn ' t hear a que s t ion i f you were

a s king me s omething direct l y .

Q .

THE RES PONDENT : I ' m sorry , I ' l l rephra s e that .

I s i t po s s ib l e that the me s s age I l e ft on Penny

1 2 Hancoc k ' s machine was s impl y t o l e t her know that the g i r l s

1 3 had cont a cted me about what they t o l d her about the incident

1 4 that - -

1 5 MR . S OKOL : Obj ec t i on , ca l l s for conj uncture , Your

1 6 Honor , " i s i t pos s ib l e . "

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THE RES PONDENT : Okay .

Q . Did Penny Hanco c k t e l l you t ha t the gi r l s t o l d her what

happened i n E l a i ne Van Beveren ' s o f f i c e ?

A . Penny Hancock conta cted m e to s a y t hat a g a i n s t t he

agreement o f h e r being a therap i st , you h ad contacted her

and told her that your att orney told you to do s o , i n fact

gave out her ce l l numbe r , and s he was a l a rmed by that and

actu a l l y a s ked me if I could a s k Richard that she could be

included on the res t r a i ning o rde r .

THE RES PONDENT :

Q . I s i t pos s ib l e that I got Penny Hancock -- that I got

Penny Hancoc k ' s number f rom a l i s t from the Sacramento

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Supe r i o r Court t hat i s readi l y ava i lable t o anybody , a s she

is l i st e d as a - - you know , as an approved p s ycholog i s t ,

medi ator o r whateve r , j us t a s E laine Van Beve ren i s ? I s it

pos s ib l e that I got her name from a l i s t l i ke that ?

A . I don ' t know how you got h e r number . Al l I know i s

Penny Hanco c k t o l d me you got - - that you r attorney,

Mr . Bowman , had sugge sted you call and gave you the phone

number . I don ' t know how you got the phone number . That i s

what I was t o l d .

Q . O ka y . We l l , M r . Bowman i s not here to s t at e anyth i ng

about anything , s o I - - I ' m t ry i ng to t h i n k what I - - I

couldn ' t a s k a que s t ion regarding t hat . We l l , I wi l l . Do

you bel ieve that Mr . Bowman , a we l l - re spected pract i c ing

attorney before -- i n the f ami l y l aw court divi s ion , would

knowingly v i o l a t e a court orde r , i f there wa s one in p l ace ,

and g ive h i s c l i ent a phone number t o contact s omebody?

MR . S OKOL : My c l i ent ' s be l i e f is i rr e l evant to

these p roceeding s .

THE COURT : Actua l l y i t ' s not . Your c l ient ' s

be l i e f i s part and parce l o f h e r j us t i f i cat i on o r not f o r

the r e s t ra in i n g orde r .

que s t ion .

MR . SOKOL : As t o Att o rney Bowman .

THE COURT : Over ru l ed . You can answer the

THE W I TNES S : I woul d doubt that Mr . Bowman wou l d

give you the phone number . That i s what Penny Hancock told

me , t ha t your att orney sugge s ted Mr . Bowman s ugge sted

that . And I know Mr . Bowman p robabl y didn ' t agree t o t hat

SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT REPORTERS --------- 6 4

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because h e s ent a l e t t e r to both M s . Van Beve ren and

Mr . S o ko l s a ying he never gave you t he phone number and

knew , you know , that you were not to contact h e r , but you

did a nyway , but he wa s n ' t the one who gave you the number .

THE RES PONDENT : I ' m a l it t l e con f u s ed here , Your

Honor , beca u s e be fore it s ounded l i ke she t e s t i f i e d that he

told me t o contact her and -- or I s a i d that he t o ld me and

he gave me t he number or I didn ' t . I ' m con fu s e d .

THE W ITNES S : I don ' t know how you got the number .

Penny Hancoc k t o l d me she wa s a l a rmed becau s e you had

cont acted h e r , and i n your me s s age t o h e r you had s t ated you

had got t he numb e r from your a t torne y , Mr . Bowman . How you

got the number , I don ' t know . Al l I know i s you had been

orde red not t o contact her and you did .

THE RES PONDENT :

Q . Could you t e l l me spec i f i c a l l y what order s t ated

spec i f i c a l l y t hat Robert S aunde r s or Respondent is not to

have any contact what soever with chi ldren ' s the rapi s t Penny

Hancoc k ? I mean , how would I know not to cont act Penny

Hancock i f I had a concern about s omething? I mea n , i s

t here - - what whe r e i s i t s t ated spe c i f i ca l l y verbat im

that I am not to cont a ct Penny Hancoc k ? I me an , how would I

know that I couldn ' t do that ? I ' ve re spected - -

T H E COURT : Stop , s t op , s t op . You a s ked the

que s t ion .

THE RES PONDENT : I ' m sorry , go ahead . Than k you ,

Your Honor .

THE WITNES S : My under s t anding i s that Penny - -

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that M s . Hanco c k unde r s tood t ha t you a r e not t o contact her

by her agreement . That i s i n t he court , that she wi l l be a

therap i s t i f she can ' t be s ubpoenaed o r contacted by the

parent s i n the - - in the court document . I know s he wa s

a l a rmed when you cont acted h e r , and her unde r s t anding was

t hat you were not t o conta ct her .

THE RES PONDENT :

Q . My f o l l ow-up que s t i on i s how woul d I know what

agreement wa s made with Ms . Hancock if I had never b e en

privy t o - -

A . Becaus e i t ' s - -

Q . - - s e e i ng any informat ion?

A . Because i t ' s in the court document where she agreed t o

be minors ' coun s e l i f she coul d be n o t s ubpoenae d , that

there is l i ke a one-page attachment t o one o f the

proceedings in the court record .

THE RES PONDENT : I ' ve neve r s een that , Your Honor .

Al l I recal l i s s ee ing i n the minut e order that she was

Ms . Van Beve ren had a s ked that she not be a l l owed t o be

s ubpoenaed .

THE COURT : Once aga i n , j us t s o t he record i s

c l ea r , Ms . Van Beveren h a s indicated that was Penny

Hancoc k ' s r e que s t , not her r e que s t .

THE RES PONDENT : Right .

THE COURT : And what I can t e l l you from the

minute order is -- i t ' s on the l e ft s i de o f the pape r , it ' s

on page 2 , and i t s a y s "Ms . Hancoc k s ha l l not be

subpoenaed . " I f somebody want s t o share with me s ome other

SACRAMENTO O FF I C IAL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 6 6

1 o rde r that s a y s that M r . S aunde r s i s prohib i t ed f rom

2

3

cont act ing h e r in any way , s hape or f o rm , I s upp o s e t ha t can

occur . Pardon me , what I mean i s t hat i s an inv i t at ion to

4 you , Mr . S o ko l , i f you h ave such an orde r , I ' d be happy to

5 see i t . But t he bottom l ine i s - - two bottom l ine s ; number

6 one , I don ' t want Mr . S aunde r s l e aving here w i t h the

7 mis concep t i on a s to whether t he re i s an o rde r o r not . But ,

8 s e conda r i l y , i t ' s not r ea l l y r e l evant t o what I ' m doing here

9 today becaus e obviou s l y M s . Hancock f e l t that i t was a

1 0 vi o l a t i on o f a court orde r , and obvi ous l y t h i s witne s s fee l s

1 1 or f e l t that i t wa s a v i o l a t i on o f a court orde r , a l l o f

1 2 wh i ch i s r e l evant t o h e r f ea r , whether i t ' s rea s onab l e ,

1 3 unre a s onab l e , t rue or not . S o i f there i s a court o rder

1 4 that s a ys he i s not t o contact Penny Hanco c k o r some other

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prohib i t i on , s uch a s a l ocal rule - ­

MR . SOKOL : The o n l y doc - - -

THE COURT : - - i t woul d be bene f i c i a l to c l a r i fy .

MR . SOKOL : The o n l y document there i s i s t he

1 9 agreement by M s . Hancoc k to s e rve a s the chi ldren ' s

2 0 attorne y , s o l ong a s s he i s not in t he middle o f any court

2 1 proceedings - -

2 2 THE COURT : Okay .

2 3 MR . S OKOL : - - nor s ubpoenab l e .

2 4 THE COURT : What document ? And not child ' s

2 5 attorne y , c h i l d ' s the rapi s t .

2 6 MR . SOKOL : Therap i s t .

2 7 THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Hono r , for

2 8 c l a r i fying that .

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the f i l e .

THE COURT : I ' m not sure tha t I woul d have that in

MR . SOKOL : I don ' t know that i t ' s i n anyth ing

othe r t han the reta iner document . Aga i n , Your Hono r , I

don ' t have t he comp l e t e f i l e here , but I can t e l l the Court

that it was - - the communi cat ions as t o Penny Hanco c k were

from Penny Hanco c k expre s s ing her f e a r and conce rn that the

attorney had g iven her c e l l phone numb e r to M r . who --

M r . S aunde rs , who was ca l l ing h e r numerous t ime s , and she

felt --

THE RES PONDENT : Obj e ct i on , Your Honor .

Ms . Berger h a s s t ated t hat I only c a l led one t ime , and I

don ' t b e l i eve Penny Hancock h a s ever s tated that I ever

ca l l e d mo re than that one t ime . There wa s no need for me to

c a l l any mo re t han that one t ime .

MR . S OKOL : That woul d have been h e r appointment

document , Your Hono r . I ' m not s u re that that i s i n the

court f i l e , and I don ' t know i f I have i t here .

have a - -

I s e em t o

THE COURT : A t s ome point s ub s equent t o t oday - ­

f i r s t o f a l l , Mr . S aunde r s , d o you h appen t o have a copy o f

any s ort o f reta ine r agreement or - - we l l , l et ' s l e ave i t a t

that , with Penny Hanco c k ?

T H E RES PONDENT : No . No , I wa s p r e t t y much kept

out o f the l oop , even t hough I had j oi nt l e g a l cus tody .

THE COURT : We l l , a t some point , M r . S o ko l , l et ' s

s a y w i t h i n five c a l endar days o f toda y , could you p l e a s e

ma ke s u r e that Mr . S aunder s h a s a copy o f whatever agreement

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exi s t s s o he knows what the rules are ?

MR . SOKOL : Ye s , Your Hono r .

THE COURT : Okay .

THE RES PONDENT : Okay .

Q . Apr i l , i s i t pos s ib l e - - we l l , I don ' t want t o a s k that

que s t i o n , I know he w i l l obj ect . B y c a l l ing Penny Hancock

and v o i c i ng my concern of wha t the g i r l s t o l d h e r , and

knowi ng t hat there is a Penal Code and there is a mandatory

repo r t i ng code when an a l legat i on o f a s s au l t is made , i s it

poss ible - - we l l , I don ' t want t o say that again - - by

c a l l i ng Penny Hanco c k , did Penny Hancoc k state to you t hat I

t o ld h e r about - - ment i oned anything about mandat o r y

repo r t i n g ? Y o u know , h e r respon s i b i l i t y a s a manda t o ry

repo r t e r to repo rt Jul ia and Laura ' s a l l egat i on t hat they

we l l , you know , that - - what occurred, t he a s s ault t hat

occurred i n Ms . Van Beve ren ' s o f f i c e ?

MR . SOKOL : Your Hono r , I haven ' t been obj e ct ing

thus fa r , but t h i s is ca l l ing for hear s a y . I s uppo s e I

coul d have obj ected t hat we a r e get t ing the c h i l dren ' s

therapi s t invo l ved and that my cl ient h a s a p r i vi l ege t o

prevent a n y o f t hat , but I t hought w e w e r e g o i n g t o get

s omewhere and we are not , s o I would obj ect .

THE COURT : We l l , i t ' s hea r s a y and i t ' s not

relevant t o the DV .

THE RES PON DENT : Okay .

Q . Apr i l , do you reca l l that on June 2 6th , 2 0 0 6 you f i led

pape rwor k w i t h the Court , app l i cation for o rder and

supporting dec l arat ion , including fami l y l aw c a s e

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 6 9

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.. ..____.�

demo graph i c s i n f o rmat i on sheet , f o r new modi f i c a t i on o f

chi l d custody and v i s i t a t i on , where you f i l led that out , and

on every que s t ion where it s a i d p l e a s e che c k a l l boxe s that

app l y , and in the section - - s e c t i on 4 , sect ion 4 would

state cust ody change , you che c ked " ye s , " and B t hrough G

whe re i t s t a t e s dome s t i c v i o l ence , s ub s t ance abu s e , mental

he a l t h , cur rent o r previous C P S involvement , ch i l d

phys i ca l / s exua l abuse o r chi l d neglect you chec ked " no . "

MR . SOKOL : Excus e me , what was t he date again?

THE COURT : June 2 6t h , ' 0 6 .

THE RES PONDENT : Ye s , thank you , Your Honor .

June 2 6t h , ' 0 6 , and Apr i l had - - i t wa s with Judge S umner ,

and Apr i l Berger had attached a dec l a r at i on s t a t ing that " I

de c l a re unde r pena l t y o f per j ury under the l aws o f S t a t e o f

C a l i fornia t h a t t he forgoing i s t rue and correct " a n d t h e

s i gnature i s a f f i xed to t h e j udicia l counc i l form , a n d i n

her de c l a rat ion she didn ' t s ta t e anything at a l l , o t h e r t han

my r e s i s t ance t o being r emoved f rom the hou s e .

THE W I TNE S S : Yea h , i t t o o k t he p o l i ce t o r emove

you from my hous e .

THE RES PONDENT :

Q . Excu s e me , t ha t wasn ' t my que s t i on .

A . The que s t ion was ?

Q . My que s t i on wa s about the documentat ion that you f i led

and swore unde r pena l t y o f p e r j ury that wa s t rue , whi ch

stated that there was neve r any incident of chi l d abu s e ,

neve r any incident o f phys i c a l abus e , whi ch wou l d be t oward

you and the chi l dren of cour s e , and t h i s is a do cument t hat

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 7 0

'.__.....-

l you f i l l e d out . Al so no dome s t i c viol ence , no chi l d

2

3

4

5

phys i c a l o r s exua l abuse , no c h i l d neglect on my part , and

that is -- in other words , it was not an i s sue for t h i s at

a l l , and a l l you a s ked for wa s a cus t ody change .

A . I don ' t know what document you are refer r ing t o

6 exact l y , but I know your behavior h a s e s c a l ated s ince I had

7 you evicted from my hous e , enough that i t ' s a l a rmed me that

8 two years - - two and a ha l f yea r s a ft e r the document you are

9 r e f e r r i ng t o , that I fe l t a need to obt a i n a r e s t r a i ning

1 0 orde r aga i n s t you .

1 1 Q . I ' l l get t o that in a moment . A l s o on t h i s form, the

1 2 fami l y law c a s e demograph i c i n f o rma t i on sheet f o r new

1 3 modi f ic a t i on o f chi l d cus tody vi s i t a t i on , you a l s o checked

1 4 the box " no '' whe r e i t s a ys " Do you h ave a r e s t r a i n ing

1 5 against the othe r party now , dome s t i c v i ol ence r e s t ra ining

1 6

1 7

1 8

1 9

2 0

2 1

2 2

o rde r , eme rgency protect ive o rder o r c r imina l protect ive

orde r " ?

A . I n ' 0 6 I did not have one against you , s o i f I che c ked

the box that was accura t e . I didn ' t h ave i t unt i l ' 0 8 .

Q . Okay . And yet before you stated that s omet ime i n June

I -- in the kit chen I pushed you in the k i t chen of our

hous e . I n June 2 0 0 6 I pushed you i n t he hou s e , and Jul ia

2 3 came i n and , you know - -

2 4

2 5

2 6

A .

Q .

A .

I - -

- - s a i d s ome things ove r t h e r e regarding that .

Um-hmm .

2 7 Q . I ' l l have t o - - when my turn come s t o t e s t i fy I ' l l do

2 8 that . Do you a l s o know that i n your r e s t ra i n ing o rder you

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 7 1

1 a l s o c i t e d two othe r dat e s , you cited Apr i l 6 t h , May 6th ,

2 June 6th , three exact dat e s in a row i n t he yea r 2 0 0 6 ? Do

. 3 you r e c a l l whe r e you we r e on Apr i l 6th , 2 0 0 6 when I - - you

4 a l l eged that I , I b e l i e ve , punched you i n the a rm , l e ft - - I

5 t h i n k you s a i d l e ft a brui s e and I pushed you into a wa l l ;

6 do you reca l l where you we re ?

7 A . P r obab l y i n our hous e . We were having nume rous

8 argument s by then . U s ua l l y they are were j us t ve rba l l y

9 abus ive , occa s iona l l y you woul d push me . I do reca l l , and

1 0 it ' s i n my dome s t i c v i o l ence thing , that you had come i n - -

1 1 I t h i n k i t ' s number 2 o r 3 - - into the k i t chen , and Jul i a

1 2 came i n and b r o ke u s up and s a i d don ' t be mean t o mommy ,

1 3 don ' t h i t mommy , when you s l ammed the r e f r i ge ra t o r doo r .

1 4 remember those incident s .

1 5 Q .

1 6 A .

1 7

I w i l l get t o them - -

Your behavi o r e s c a l ated s ince then .

THE COURT : Excus e me , there i s no que s t i on . Do

1 8 you h ave a que s t i on ?

1 9

Q .

THE RES PONDENT : Yeah .

I a s ked h e r i f s h e reca l led - - wel l , I don ' t r emembe r

I

2 0

2 1 what I a s ke d , forget i t . I ' l l a s k thi s que st ion i n s t ead --

2 2 oh , yeah , i t had t o do with the three date s , doe s s h e reca l l

2 3 Apr i l 6 t h , May 6th and June 6th , whi ch are the dat e s that

2 4 she c l a ims - - which happen t o be the s ame exact dat e for

2 5 three con s e cut ive month s , t hat she a l l eged that I had , you

2 6 know , phys i c a l contact with he r , that I had a s s au l t e d her o r

2 7 whateve r , you know , does s he reca l l stat ing that - -

2 8 A . I did .

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 7 2

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Q . i n h e r re s t ra i ning orde r ?

A . I d i d d o that . I f i l led out that paperw o r k two and a

ha l f yea r s a ft e r tho s e .

Q . Um-hmm .

A . The c l e r k a t the counte r t ol d me j us t t o put the month

and t he yea r , s o I did .

Q . And what about the date , beca u s e I p e r s onal l y f ind i t

susp i c i ou s t h a t i t ' s t h e exact date ?

A . I cou ldn ' t r emember the exact dat e s becaus e i t w a s two

1 0 and a h a l f yea r s previou s .

1 1 Q . Right .

1 2 THE COURT : Ho ld o n a s e cond .

1 3

1 4

1 5

1 6

1 7

THE RES PONDENT : Yeah , I ' m s or r y .

THE COURT : Just t o be c l ea r , your memory o f her

document is inaccurat e . Her document shows 6 - 0 6 , 5 - 0 6 ,

4 - 0 6 , 7 - 0 6 .

THE RES PONDENT : I wasn ' t i n the hous e a t 7 - 0 6 . I

1 8 l e ft the hou s e Jul y 1 s t , 2 0 0 6 .

1 9 THE COURT : You are mi s s ing my point .

2 0 THE RES PONDENT : Go ahead .

2 1 THE COURT : You are c l a iming that she s a i d

2 2 Apr i l 6 t h o f ' 0 6 .

2 3 THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .

2 4 THE COURT : She didn ' t . S he s a i d Apr i l o f ' 0 6 .

2 5 THE RES PONDENT : O ka y .

2 6 THE COURT : You are c l a iming t hat s h e s a i d May 6th

2 7 o f ' 0 6 , she didn ' t ; s he s a i d May o f ' 0 6 . You a r e c l a iming

2 8 she s a i d June 6th o f ' 0 6 --

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 7 3

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becau s e I

THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .

THE COURT : - - and she wrote 6 - 0 6 .

THE RES PONDENT : Oh , o ka y . S o it w a s s e e ,

I thought i n the r e s t r a in ing o rde r i t s a i d

spec i f i c a l l y dat e s Apr i l , May , and June 6 t h - ­

THE COURT : No .

THE RES PONDENT : - - on those dat e s .

THE COURT : No , i t doe s not .

THE RES PONDENT :

Q . S o my que s t ion would then be , Apr i l , do you r e ca l l on

what day in Apr i l 2 0 0 6 t hat I a l l egedly a s s au l t e d you ?

A . I don ' t r e ca l l the exact day , and unde r t he adv i ce o f

t h e c l e r k a t the window , that i s when he t o l d me , j us t t o

ma ke i t the mont h . S o t hat i s why there i s no dat e , there

i s j u st a month and a yea r on my form .

Q . S o you remember being gone for p a rt o f that month in

Apr i l 2 0 0 6 ?

A . I don ' t . Gone wher e ?

Q . I ' m a s king you

A . I wor ke d , I went - -

Q . I don ' t mean wor k , I mean out o f t own . Not even i n

Sacrament o .

A . I - -

MR . SOKOL : What date are w e t a l king about ?

THE RES PONDENT : Somet ime i n Apr i l 2 0 0 6 .

Q . Because i t s ounds l i ke i t could have happened any t ime

i n 2 0 0 6 , s o did I a s s au l t you the ent i re mont h ? Did I

a s sault you one day i n t ha t month? Five minut e s i n that

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 7 4

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mont h ? I ' m l oo k i ng f o r c l a r i f i cati on f r om you .

A . I purpo s e l y l e ft the dat e b l an k because I could not

rememb e r the exact dat e . In gene r a l you were verba l l y

abu s i ve t o me , occas i ona l l y phy s i c a l l y abu s ive t o me , and i t

e s ca l ated s ince then whe re you had t o b e hauled o f f b y e i ght

ba i l i f f s March 9th o f 2 0 0 8 .

Q . And what doe s be i ng hauled by e i ght bai l i f f s on

March 9 t h , 2 0 0 8 - -

A . I t a l a rms

Q . excu s e me , 2 0 0 9 , have anything t o do w i t h you and

your dome s t i c v i o lence r e s t r a i n ing o rder that you f i led

over - - a lmo s t two and a ha l f years l a te r , a ft e r a l l eging

that there wer e n o incident s wha t soeve r when we were l iving

togethe r , and that i s rea l l y where I had cont act with you ?

What doe s that h ave t o do with anything rea l l y ?

A . I f e a r f o r my s a fe t y a s your behavi o r h a s e s c a l ated

1 7 s i nce w e l ived t ogether t o the point whe re you were t a ken

1 8 out o f the court room i n handcuf fs by e i ght b a i l i f f s . That

1 9 ma ke s me a l it t l e f e a r fu l .

2 0 Q . I s i t pos s ible that I wa s s t anding my ground and

2 1 expre s s ing my r i gh t s under the Con s t itut i on o f t h e s e United

2 2 States o f Ame r i c a regarding my court c a s e , and they are open

2 3 matt e r s before the Court , a s I had s tated t o Judge Gary , and

2 4 I wanted to - - f o r h im t o addre s s that , and s ince I was

2 5 repre s ent ing my own I didn ' t have anybody whi spering i n my

2 6 ear , s o that was my b e l i e f that a l l I could do was s t a y in

2 7 the court unt i l I had the ob j ec t i on s I made be ruled on and

2 8 my r i ght t o due p roce s s re spected?

SACRAMENTO OFFIC IAL COURT RE PORTERS ---------7 5

1

2

A . At the beginning o f the hearing you had a f ourth

attorne y , a woman who I forget h e r name , Ki r s t e n or

3 something l i ke that , s he was about nine months p regnant , and

4 you f i red h e r on the s t and in f ront o f Judge - - at t he t ime

5 she l e ft f o r the ba r , t he j udge a s ked you that h e wa s done

6 w i t h the c a s e , he was r emoving any v i s i t s that you could

7 have with the chi ldren , any contact at a l l , l et a l one

8 supe rvi s e d level thre e , and you refused to l e ave . He a s ked

9 you numerous t ime s t o l e ave and s a i d you woul d be in

1 0 cont empt o f court , and you s aid that i s f i n e o r s omething t o

1 1 the e f fect o f I want t o be i n contempt o f court . When the

1 2 b a i l i f f a s ked you t o l eave nume rous t ime s , you re fused to

1 3 get up . He t o o k your forea rm , you t u rned a roun d , you

1 4 s lammed t he ba i l i f f , s omebody pushed a button , e i ght more

1 5 ba i l i f f s o r thereabout ran i n . By thi s t ime I ' m hiding

1 6 behind E l aine crying , Richard S o ko l i s pu shing a cha i r

1 7 against you s o they could handcuf f you and t a ke you o f f to

1 8 j a i l . S o I t h i n k your behavi o r h a s e s c a l ated a l i t t l e b i t .

1 9

2 0

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Q . I have seve r a l court watcher s and anot he r witne s s e s

that can count e r that s t a t ement .

A . That i s what I obs e rved .

Q . Do you reca l l what -- l e t me get back to whe re I was

be fore ; do you r e ca l l t hat i n Apr i l o f 2 0 0 6 , at any t ime

during that month , that you were not even - - and the

2 5 childre n , were not in S acrament o , Ca l i fornia

2 6 A . I don ' t r e c a l l .

2 7 Q . - - f o r a port i on o f that month ?

2 8 A . I do not recal l whe re I wa s for a l l o f the dat e s ln

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------7 6

\ _____

1

2

Apr i l 2 0 0 6 .

Q . And do you reca l l a t any t ime i n our r e l a t i onship ever

3 r a i s i ng a hand t o me and e i t h e r h i t t ing me , punching me ,

4 pus h i ng me o r anything e l s e ?

5 A . I don ' t know what you a r e re f e r ring to . I don ' t

6 remembe r punching you , h i t t i ng you . You have t o be

7 speci f i c , a s k me dat e s , t ime s . I don ' t know . I don ' t

8 rememb e r h i t t ing you . I remember being verba l l y bat t ered

9 prima ri l y .

1 0 Q . Do you r e ca l l a t any t ime eve r cur s ing me a ft e r an

1 1 incident had occurred when our daughte r s were a l i t t l e b i t

1 2 younger t han e i ghteen months o l d where you had l e ft t hem in

1 3 the bathtub unat t ended , wa l ked out t he door w i t h s omeone who

1 4 had apparent l y f ound one o f our turt l e s , and t hen when I

1 5

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con f ronted you about that -- i n othe r wo rds , w i t h my s i st e r ,

my mother - - w i t h witne s se s , I should s a y , i n the house , my

f ami l y membe r s , and I s a i d t o you , Apr i l - - wel l , and I

s a i d , Apr i l , you l e ft the g i r l s unattended in the bathtub ,

you can ' t do that , and you l o o ked a t me and you s a i d t o me ,

go fuck your s e l f , no , I didn ' t , I didn ' t do that , go fuc k

your s e l f ; do you rec a l l stat ing t ha t ?

A . So we a r e t a l king what , e i ght yea r s ago ?

Q . When t he g i r l s were approxima t e l y s omewhe re between

f i fteen t o about s e venteen month s o l d ?

A . I don ' t r ememb e r cur s ing a t you . I r ememb e r that I did

the p r ima r y amount o f c h i l d care and I p robab l y wa s bathing

the chi ldren .

Q . Excu s e me , that wasn ' t t he que s t i o n .

SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 7 7

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""-�_...

A . What wa s your que s t i on ?

Q . The que s t ion was about you verb a l l y abu s ing me , and

when I vo i ced my concern about an incident of neglect --

A . Did you f i l e a C P S report on my neglect a t that t ime ?

que s t i on ?

THE COURT : Excu s e me , can you an swe r the

THE W I TNES S : What wa s your que s t i on , p l e a s e ?

THE RES PONDENT :

Q . Do you r emember that on - - a t a t ime s omewhere

between - - when t he g i r l s were about f i fteen t o

s eventeen months o l d , a ft e r y o u - - y o u w e r e giving t h em a

bath and you wal ked out o f the hou s e - - l e ft them unat tended

in the bathroom, you wal ked out o f the hous e , we had s everal

peop l e i n the house bes i de s mys e l f , you wa l ked out of t he

hous e , went with a man who found one o f your turt l e s , and

when you came back I confronted you , I spoke t o you , and I

s a i d t o you , Apr i l , you l e ft the g i r l s i n the bathtub , you

l e ft t hem unattended in the bathtub , and then you s a i d to

me , no , I didn ' t , and I s a i d , ye s , you did and I ' ve got

witne s s es , and you s a id go fuc k your s e l f ; do you r emember

stat ing t hat ?

A . I don ' t r emember s t a t ing t ha t .

Q . Do you remember g iving t hem a bath and wal king out o f

the house to g o with a man about a turt l e ?

A . I remember u s having many turt l e s , one o f which got i t s

leg chewed on , a man coming t o t h e house whi l e I w a s bathing

the g i rl s , I be l i eve you were t here , your mot h e r was there ,

your brothe r , your s i s te r , I don ' t know who e l s e , I r emember

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 7 8

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a s king e i t h e r you o r your mot h e r - - s omebody came t o get me

t o go t o the f ront door and they we r e in charge o f t h e g i r l s

in t h e bathroom, and I rememb e r going t o f ind t h e t u r t l e

with i t s l e g chewed o f f t h a t our n e i ghbo r h a d found .

Q . Okay .

A . We probab l y e s c a l ated into a verbal argument , but I

don ' t rememb e r t e l l ing you t o go F your s e l f .

Q . So you b a s i c a l l y I t h i n k t he que s t i on wa s a s ked and

answered .

THE COURT : That i s what we hope for .

THE RES PONDENT : Yeah , thank you , Your Honor .

Q . Anoth e r t h i ng wa s do you reca l l any othe r inc ident s

where you were verbal l y abus i ve t o me and had p e r s ona l l y

attacked me ?

que s t ion .

MR . SOKOL : Ob j ec t i on , i rr e l evant .

THE RES PONDENT : How i s that i r re l evant ?

THE COURT : Over ru l ed . You can answer the

THE W I TNES S : No , I do not .

THE RES PONDENT :

Q . Do you r e ca l l when I became di s ab l e d and a t ime - - and

at t ime s had to c rawl on the f l o o r and s t i l l - - and yet I

st i l l h e lped t o t a ke care o f our daugh t e r s and get t hem

ready for s chool ? Whi l e you coo ked brea kfa s t I he lped get

them dre s s e d ; do you reca l l my doing that ?

MR . SOKOL : Obj e ct i on , i rr e levant .

THE COURT : Susta ined .

THE RES PONDENT : Okay .

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS ---------7 9

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'-----''

Q . Do you reca l l that when I became di s ab l e d and we had a

f riend i n the hou s e , Danny Ave l a r ?

Hono r .

witne s s .

que s t ion .

MR . SOKOL : As s ume s a f a ct not in evidence , Your

THE RES PONDENT : We l l , i t wi l l be supported by a

THE COURT : Overru l ed . You can f in i s h your

THE RES PONDENT : Than k you , Your Honor .

Q . Do you reca l l why Danny l e ft our house when h e was

s t aying there to recuperate f rom surgery?

MR . SOKOL : Obj e c t i on , c a l l s for conj e cture .

THE COURT : Over ruled . I f you know the answe r you

can answer i t .

THE W I TNES S : Al l I remember i s Danny had b a c k

surge r y , s t a yed a t o u r hous e for a t ime . I can ' t remember

when , I can ' t remember how l ong he s t a yed , and I can ' t

remember why h e l e ft . I a s s ume becau s e we helped h im out

whi l e he wa s r ecove ring from back surge r y , I don ' t know .

THE RES PONDENT :

Q . Do you reca l l any i nc iden t s whe r e - - about your

treatment of me , your a t t i tude towards me , your s t at ement s

toward me when I wa s di s abled whi l e Danny Ave l a r was there

at the hous e ?

que s t ion .

MR . SOKOL : That i s broad, Your Hono r , obj ect i on .

THE COURT : Over ru l ed . You can answer the

THE W I TNE S S : I don ' t know what you a r e r e f e r ring

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to . I can r ememb e r Danny come t o s t a y w i th u s .

sure what you are a s king me .

THE RES PONDENT :

I ' m not

Q . Wha t I a s ked wa s do you remember ba s i c a l l y being - - I

can s a y nonempa thet i c , but that i s k i nd o f broad, and not - ­

not s ympathe t i c , but rea l l y ma king di sparaging comment s t o

me wh i l e I was - - when I was di s ab l ed and w i t h Danny Ave l a r

present ?

A . I don ' t r emember an incident that you are describing .

Q . O ka y . Get t ing b a c k t o that a l l eged incident i n June

when you s a i d that I sweared and ye l led at you and pushed

you into the k i t chen of the house we s hared , et cetera , et

ceter a , e t cetera , and you s a i d that Jul i a came i n ; do you

reca l l Jul i a coming i n on h e r s coote r ?

A . She had one o f t h o s e l i t t l e s coot e r thing s , I b e l i eve .

Q . Do you remember speci f i c a l l y what she s a i d ? She s a i d

o n e s ta t ement ; d o you r ememb e r spec i f i c a l l y what she s a i d ?

A . I know she was t ry i ng t o b r e a k u p a f i ght . Her exact

words I c an ' t quote . I know - -

Q . Do you remember speci f i c a l l y what I s a i d t o her ?

A . No . I wa s j us t kind o f g l ad she b r o ke t hings up

becau s e I t hought you were about ready to h i t me .

Q . So what you are s aying i s t hat we are having a verbal

disagreement and you are j ump ing to a conclus ion that I ' m

going t o h i t you ?

A . Becau s e you s l ammed t he r e f r i gerator door and you

charged me i n a l oud voice . I wa s fea r ful at that t ime ,

yes .

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 8 1

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Q . Do you r e ca l l me t e l l ing you seve r a l yea r s ago that I

have a prob l em h e a r ing a s a r e s u l t o f a l l e rg y p rob l ems with

my l e ft e a r s o s omet ime s I spe a k l oude r t han no rma l because

I can ' t hear the s ound - - I don ' t hear the s ound of my

vo ice , and a l s o because I ' m a lways s tu f f e d up and medicat ion

appa rent l y doe s n ' t help t hat s o s omet ime s I spe a k l oude r

than normal and t hat i t ' s pos s ible t hat you might t h i n k t hat

I ' m - - you know , I ' ve r a i sed my voice at you , but i t ' s my

norma l speaking voi ce because I have a h a rd t ime hear ing

from that s ide of my e a r ?

A . I don ' t know how your hearing i s . I know you h ave

comp l a i ned o f a number o f ma ladies ove r t he years and were

f requent l y unemp l oyed .

THE RES PONDENT : Excu s e me , Your Hono r , what doe s

that have t o d o w i t h t h e r e l evance o f anyt h i n g ?

T H E COURT : Just kind a cheap shot t o kind o f

throw i n there .

THE RES PONDENT : A coup l e o f them , yeah .

Q . We l l , g iven the fact that Ms . Berger f i l e d t h i s

paperwor k with the Court o n June 2 6t h - - actua l l y , l et ' s

s e e , i t ' s l e t me see , orde r t o s how cause s omewhere

between June 2 6t h t o June 2 7 t h , if there were t h re e a l l eged

incident s p r i o r to you f i l ing t he pape rwor k and you a l l eged

that there were no inc i dent s on the fami l y law c a s e

demograph i c s , you a l l ege t h a t t h e r e w e r e n o incident s i n

your de c l a r a t i on , y o u know , w h i c h I would a s s ume that you

woul d have at that t ime , why did you not s t a t e t he

occurrence o f t h i s suppo sed event i n any o f t he court

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paperwor k on June 2 6t h t o 2 7 t h , 2 0 0 6 , whi ch would have been

a mer e 2 0 t o 2 1 days a ft e r three a l l eged incident s had

happened in seve r a l months before? You know , why didn ' t you

t a ke any approp r i a t e l e g a l mea s ur e s at the t ime ?

A . I did . I had the sheri f f evi ct you from the house

after you r e fu s e d t o l eave . I a s ked you to l eave f i r s t , you

didn ' t . I contacted Richard S o ko l ' s o f f i ce , he wrote you a

lett e r , l et ' s t a l k about t hi s , let ' s t r y to medi at e t hi s ,

get you out o f the hous e , you r e fused t o l e ave . S o I got a

court o rder t o h ave you evi cted . You wa l ked ove r the

paperwor k f o r several days unt i l the - - my mot h e r c a l l e d the

p o l i ce and the l o c ksmith to change the locks . I l e f t t he

house with the g i r l s t o a bi rthday party and you we r e

evicted f rom t h e hous e .

Q . Now , in c a l l ing t he pol i ce to have me evicted from the

hous e , from what the p o l iceman t o l d me and any paperwo r k

that I mi ght o r may not have seen , nowhere did i t ever state

t hat you were c l a iming t ha t I was phys i c a l l y abus ive t o you ,

phys i c a l l y a s s au l t i ve t o you , phys i ca l l y threat ening o r even

verb a l l y threatening or that in any way I was -- t h o s e t ypes

o f behav i o r s t o t he chi l dren

MR . SOKOL : Obj ec t i on , cal l s - ­

THE RES PON DENT :

Q . i t was me r e l y you want ed your house b a c k for

you r s e l f ?

MR . SOKOL : Obj e c t i on , cal l s f o r h e a rs a y . H e s a i d

what eve r the p o l i ceman t o l d me .

THE COURT : Ms . Berge r , prior to the evi ct i on or

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 8 3

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concurrent w i t h t he evict i on , any o f t he paperwo r k you ever

f i led a l l eged dome s t i c vio l ence o r abu s e of you or the

3 chi ldren ?

4

5

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THE W I TNE S S : Maybe not i n the paperwo r k , but - ­

THE COURT : That i s a l l I wanted to know .

THE W I TNE S S : I know I put i t i n the medi at i on

7 report f o r t he mediator i n advance , and I t a l ked about it i n

8 coun s e l l i ng .

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Hono r .

THE RES PONDENT : Than k you f o r c l a r i fying , Your

Q . I saw the mediat i on report s and I don ' t reca l l s e e ing

those a t a l l . S o my que s t i on i s how could you s e e d i f f e rent

medi a t i on repo r t s t han I saw?

A . You know the form they have you f i l l out with answering

a l l those que s t i on s when you f i r s t go t o medi a t i o n ?

Q . Um-hmm .

1 7 A . I n my answer t o those I di s cu s s e d what had happened in

1 8 our f ami l y .

1 9 Q . I do reca l l s eve r a l t ime s you s t a t ing about my j ob

2 0 h i s t o ry o r - - and refus i ng t o accept the fact that I was

2 1 disabled and you were ma king those point s at the mediator ' s ,

2 2 but I don ' t reca l l ever see ing any paperwo r k . Had I known

2 3 we were going to be delving into thi s , I would have brought

2 4 the medi a t i o n paperwo r k with me . That I don ' t reca l l t hat

2 5 i s sue - - an i s sue at a l l eve r c ame up with the chi l dren

2 6 regarding that , because I would t h i n k that how would I get

2 7 any v i s i t a t i on t ime with the chi ldren and why wasn ' t I put

2 8 on superv i s e d v i s i t at i on immedia t e l y i f there were

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a l legat i on s o f child abus e o r a s s au l t i ve behav i o r o r

threatening behav i o r t owards you , because I wou l d t h i n k that

the Court would go - - and an o f f i c e r -- you know , an o f ficer

o f the court o r a media t o r would go to want t o protect you

and the chi l dren immediat e l y i f that was t rue . I ' m

confu s e d .

THE COURT : I ' m confused too , but do you have a

new que s t ion becaus e she can ' t answer that one ?

THE RES PON DENT : Okay .

Q . Did you rece ive d i f fe rent mediat i on informat ion than I

did?

A . At t h e s ame med i a t i on I s upp o s e - - I know i n our s econd

round o f med i a t i o n - - I forget the woman ' s name , i t was a

b l a c k woman .

Q . A l i c i a Al l i s on .

A . Ms . Al l i s on , and I know you became s o verba l l y

aggre s s ive that t he s he r i f f came out f r om the h a l lwa y i nto

the room and a s ked if I wanted an e s cort t o my car f rom the

courtroom ' s mediation room ; I r emember t hat inc i dent . I t

wa s a woman s h er i f f , she a s ked me did I want a n e s co r t t o my

car because you had become s o l oud in your - - in our

medi a t i on with M s . Al i c i a - - I forget , Ke ye s , I be l i eve that

is her name .

Q . Al i c i a Al l i s on . Al i c i a Keyes i s a wonde r fu l s inger and

piani s t .

A . O ka y .

Q . Do you reca l l what I s a i d t o Al i c i a Al l i s on that led to

me s t anding up and what I s a i d , why I wa s l eaving the room?

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�

" A . A l l I know i s you j umped up f rom your <cha i r , I can ' t

rememb e r what we were di s cus s ing , you be came very l oud ,

sha king your a rms enough that from t he - - our c l o s ed o f f ice

with her , the sheri f f came out f r om the h a l lway t o interrupt

and a s k i f we needed a s s i s tance and did I need to be wa l ked

to my car by her o r not . I don ' t remember exac t l y what was

going on , other t han you had j umped out of your chai r and

were curs ing and waving your a rms .

Q . Now you are s a yi ng that I wa s cur s i ng . I nt e r e s t ing .

A . You were t a l king ve ry - - t he t one o f your voice

f r ightened me and you were t a l king very l oud . What you were

s a ying , exact thing s , I can ' t remember . I t a l a rmed t he

s her i f f enough that s h e came into t h e room .

Q . Do you reca l l A l i c i a Al l i s on ' s report where she made no

ment ion wha t soever of any cur s i ng of any kind , of any

t hreatening behavio r of any kind on my part , and do you

reca l l at a l l what she c l e a r l y s t a t e d , what i t s e emed l i ke

the problem w a s between you and me ?

A . Did I reca l l her s t at ing what ?

Q . Wha t - - what - - bas ical l y she was - - she e s sent i a l l y

was l eading t o a point o f - - t h e t ime that I st o od up and I

s a i d - - and what I s a i d about l eaving and why I wa s l eaving ,

and then she s tated in t he actual report , which i s i n t he

record by the way , e s sent i a l l y - -

MR . SOKOL : S ounds l i ke a hea r s ay , Your Honor .

THE RES PONDENT : O ka y , we l l , i t ' s i n t he record ,

though . And Apr i l , I woul d ima g ine , read the s ame report a s

you d i d , I d i d , m y attorney a t t h e t ime did . What s h e s a i d

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what wa s one o f t he p rob l ems that l e ad t o my get t ing up and

l eaving or one of t he rea s on s why I got up and l e ft .

THE COURT : Why don ' t you pretend that the

que s t ion is do you r emember why h e got up and l e ft .

THE RES PONDENT : Than k you , Your Hono r , for

c l a r i fying .

l e ft .

THE W ITNES S : I don ' t remember why he got up and

I rememb e r he -­

THE RES PONDENT :

Q . Do you r emember what I s a i d before I got up and l e ft ?

MR . S OKOL : Can s he f i n i s h h e r answe r ?

THE W I TNE S S : I don ' t rememb e r what you s a i d when

you l e ft the room , but you were a g i t a t e d , t a l k i n g in a

l a rge - - l oud vo i ce . I don ' t remember the words you s a i d .

THE RES PONDENT :

Q . Do you r e ca l l that I s a i d that I ' ve sat here for an

hour and a h a l f and I ' ve heard you disparage my fami l y and

my - - and - - one by one , and -- and I felt that you were

extreme l y ungrat e fu l f o r the fact t hat e ach of t h e s e people

have been h e l ped r ai s e our chi ldren , so t o spea k , by

a lways being there for t hem, and I ' m not going t o s i t here

and t o l erate t h i s t ype of -- I ' m not going t o t o l e ra t e t h i s

behavi o r anymo r e ?

A . I a l ready s a i d I don ' t know what you s a i d . I j us t know

you j umped up , were a g i t at e d , ye l l i n g enough that the

s he r i f f came f rom the h a l lway into our room . I don ' t

r emember what you s a i d , I j u s t r emember being a l armed and

be ing f r i ghtened by your behavi o r .

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS ---------- 8 7

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''----'

Q . S o your s t a t ement i s that t he s he r i f f came into the

room ; are you sure that is what h appened ?

A . You and I we re s it t ing i n the confe rence room in t he

down s t a i r s i n the medi a t i on , and the s he r i f f came int o the

room . She wal ked me out t o the ha l lway , you kept going

through t he thing , and she a s ked me at that t ime did I want

an e s cort to my car .

Q . S o i t cou l dn ' t h ave been that - - i s i t p o s s ib l e t hat --

excuse me , I don ' t want t o a s k that ques t ion becau s e I know

it w i l l be obj ected t o . When I l e ft t he room , a f t e r I

stated I ' m not going t o t o l e ra t e t h i s behavior anymor e from

he r , I ' m t i red o f my fami l y being disparaged, t h i s i s the

s e cond t ime i t h appened, do you reca l l t hat I s a i d I ' m

leaving and I went t o the doo r and I wal ked out and I was

out of the room?

A . I a l ready s a id I don ' t know what you s a i d , j u s t that

you j umped up , were agitated, you were c l o s e r t o t he door

than I wa s , I remember t hat , t hat your cha i r was c l o s e r to

the doo r , I wa s more in t owards t he wi ndow o f t h e room .

What you s a i d , I don ' t know , but I know you s a i d i t i n a

l oud , a g i t a t ed vo i ce and j umped up f rom t he cha i r .

Q . Do you know that it was I that met t he s h e r i f f in the

hal lway and the s he r i f f a s ked me - - a fema l e sheri f f , and

s a id what is going on , I said I ' m l e aving , and that wa s i t ?

And s h e s a i d - - you know , and I s a i d where i s t h e doo r , and

she s a i d ri ght there , and I s a i d thank you and that was i t .

You know , I have no knowledge o f a s he r i f f coming into a

room . S o no s h e r i f f came i n whi l e I was the r e . Do you know

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that I wa s the one that f i r s t met the sheri f f out s ide the

room becau s e she heard voi c e s i n the room, which was me

s t anding there - - s t anding up and s aying I ' m l eaving , and

then I wa s near t he doo r and s a id - - excuse me , I s a i d I ' m

not going t o t o l erate t h i s behavior anymo re . Then near t he

doo r , I opened the doo r and I s a i d I ' m l eaving , and that wa s

i t , I w a l ked out s ide . I have no knowl edge at a l l - - how

would I h ave knowl edge a t a l l we l l , l e t me b a c k up and

say do you know t hat that is what happened , that I

encountered the sheri f f i n t h e h a l lway before the s he r i ff

ever got even near the doo r o f the room?

A . I don ' t know what you s a i d t o t he s he r i f f .

Q . No , I ' m s aying but do you know that I encount ered the

she r i f f f i r s t ?

A . I a l ready t ol d you what I - ­

Q . Um-hmrn .

A . I don ' t know what you s a i d t o t he sheri f f , when you

encount ered he r . I know s he came to our room , whether you

opened the door f i r s t or s he opened the door f i r s t , I

be l i eve - - I don ' t know . I know she a s ked me did I want an

e s cort t o my car at t ha t t ime . What you s a i d t o her , I

don ' t know .

THE COURT : Let ' s s e i ze upon t h i s moment o f

t ranqu i l i t y t o brea k .

THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Hono r .

THE COURT : And we w i l l reconvene a t 1 : 3 0 . And

I ' ll ma ke the s ame o f f e r I made before we bro ke l a s t t ime ,

the court room i s going t o be l o c ke d , you are we l come to

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 8 9

1 l e ave a s much or l it t l e as you want , and we ' l l s e e you at

2 1 : 3 0 . �-3 THE RES PON DENT : Than k you , Your Honor .

4 THE COURT : You are wel come .

5 MR . SOKOL : Than k you .

6 ( Proceedings adj ourned . )

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SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS 9 0

1 SACRAMENTO , CAL I FORN IA

2 MAY 8 , 2 0 0 9 , AFTERNOON S E S S I ON

3 - - - ooo - - -

4 Proceedings in the Mat t e r o f BERGER v . SAUN DERS ,

5 Ca s e No . 0 6 FL 0 4 4 1 5 , carne on regu l a r l y t h i s day before the

6 Hono r ab l e THOMAS M . CEC I L , Judge o f the S upe r i o r Court o f

7 Ca l i forni a , f o r the County o f S a c ramento , Depa rtment 1 2 1

8 thereo f .

9 The P e t i t ione r , APRIL BERGER, was repres ented by

1 0 R ICHARD SOKOL , Att orney a t Law .

1 1 The Respondent , ROBERT SAUNDERS , wa s r ep r e s ented

1 2 by h ims e l f , I n Prop r i a Persona .

1 3 The f o l l owing proceedings we r e then had, to wit :

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- - - ooo - - -

T H E COURT : Al l r ight , you f o l ks ready ?

MR . SOKOL : Y e s , Your Honor .

THE RES PONDENT : Ye s , Your Hono r .

THE COURT : Then l et ' s con t inue whe r e we were .

MR . SOKOL : Your Hono r , you had a s ked me dur ing

2 0 the noon hour t o get you t he court o rder conce rning Penny

2 1 Hancoc k .

2 2 THE COURT : Actua l l y I a s ked you t o p rovide i t t o

2 3 h im w i t h i n f ive days , but I ' m g l ad you f ound it , i f t hat i s

2 4 what you found .

2 5 MR . SOKOL : I t ' s a court o rde r , he h a s a copy o f

2 6 i t . I t ' s the order o f 9 - 2 4 - 0 8 , that i s what i t s a ys , I ' m

2 7 wi l l ing t o give t h i s copy t o him . I t s a ys "As a r e s u l t ,

2 8 ne ither mot h e r nor father may initiate communications with

SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 9 1

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Ms . Hanco c k on any s ub s tantive custody o r p arent ing i s s ue s ,

nor a s k the c h i l dren t o share any informa t i on d i scus sed with

Ms . Hanco c k during therap y s e s s i on s . "

THE COURT : There you go .

MR . SOKOL : That i s the orde r . Here you go .

THE RES PONDENT : Than k you .

THE COURT : Thank you . Dr . Berge r , i f you want to

come back up . M r . Saunde r s , you wer e i n the mi ddl e o f

a s king ques t ions .

THE RES PONDENT : Jus t give me one moment , Your

Hono r , t o get back t o where I wa s . I app r e c i a t e that .

Q . Apr i l , when - - the p a s t seve r a l yea r s s ince our cust ody

s i tuat i on h a s gone on , do you reca l l that there were two

therap i s t repo rt s , and therap i s t s that we s at w i t h s t ated

do you reca l l that they s t a t ed t o u s that the g i r l s l ove

both of you e qua l l y , want to be with you both e qua l l y , and

i t ' s obvious that both of you l ove t he g i r l s ?

Q .

MR . SOKOL : Obj ec t i on , i rr e levant .

THE COURT : Susta ined .

THE RES PONDENT :

Do you reca l l that E l a i ne Van Beve ren s t ated that i n

o u r Jul y mee t i ng , t he f i ve -way conference whe r e t h e

a t t o rneys were t h e r e a n d y o u a n d I w e r e there , and that s he

stated that there were no problems o r i s sues between the

parents when exchangi ng the g i rl s , t he exchange s went we l l ,

and s h e j us t w i s hed there woul d be more communi cat ion

2 7 between you and me ?

2 8 A . I don ' t r emember that exact statement . The meet ing

SACRAMENTO OFF I C IAL COURT REPORTERS ----- 9 2

1

2

wa s , you know , an h our , hour and a h a l f l on g .

Q . Okay .

3 A . And i t wa s I don ' t know how l on g ago , s i x , e i ght - - a

4 year ago , s ome t h i ng l i ke that . I ' m not sure how l ong ago .

5 Q . Do you r e ca l l that i n mor e than 6 , 4 0 0 wo rds and more

6 than ten de c l a ra t ions and statement s , you never c l a imed

7 phys i c a l v i o l ence , phy s i ca l abu s e , dome s t i c v i o l ence ,

8 phys i c a l threateni ng behavi o r , et cetera , t owards you from

9 me unt i l you f il ed that r e s t r a i ning orde r ?

1 0 MR . SOKOL : As s ume s a fact not i n evidence .

1 1 THE COURT : S u s t a i ned . Mr . S aunde r s , I t h i n k you

1 2 have a l re ady ext racted f r om h e r t ha t nothing h a s been f i led

1 3 p r i o r t o thi s .

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THE RES PONDENT : What do you mean exact l y nothing

has been f i l e d ?

T H E COURT : What I mean i s she h a s n ' t f i l e d

anyt h i ng a l l e g i ng dome s t ic v i o l ence

THE RES PONDENT : O ka y .

THE COURT : - - p r i o r t o f i l ing t h i s DVRO .

THE RES PONDENT : I unde r s t and . Than k you , Your

Hono r , for c l a r i fying t hat .

Q . What do you c l a im i s your t rue mot i vat i on for f i l i ng a

r e s t r a i n i ng order against me and keepi ng our chi ldren , who

stated nume rous t ime s t hat they - - they l ove u s , I mean you

and me t ogethe r , what i s - - why woul d you go ahead and f i l e

a re s t ra ining o rder t o cau s e your daughters t o be s ep arated

from t he i r fathe r ?

MR . SOKOL : I a s s ume the que s t ion i s why did you

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 9 3

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f i le the r e s t r a i ning orde r .

THE COURT : True .

THE W I TNESS : I f i led a r e s t r aining order because

your behavior h a s e s ca l ated s ince I had you evicted f rom our

house on Jul y 1 s t , to the po i nt whe re I ' m f e a r f u l f o r my

s a fe t y unt i l you get p s ycholo g i ca l l y evaluated a s the Court

orde r ed s ince Septembe r 2 4 th , and approp r i a t e l y t re a t ed .

That i s why I s ought the r es t ra ining orde r , t hat your

behav i o r ha s e sc a l a t e d , and I did have in my - - I went to

look it up on my re s t ra ining orde r , that the inc ident with

the s coot e r is on t h i s page here . I t ' s in there .

THE COURT : Do you have any more que s t i on s ?

THE RES PONDENT : Y e s . Can I r e s e rve the r i ght to

reca l l h e r as a witne s s , Your Honor ?

THE COURT : Sure .

THE RES PONDENT : O ka y , I app r e c i a t e that .

l i ke t o e xe r c i s e that r i ght , Your Honor .

I wou ld

THE COURT : I ' m s o r r y , I got l o s t f o r a minute a s

t o whos e mot i on t h i s w a s . M r . S o ko l , you have any further

que s t i on s you want t o a s k your c l ient ?

MR . SOKOL : Ye s , Your Hono r .

RED I RECT EXAM I NAT I ON BY MR . SOKOL :

Q . Dr . Berge r , Mr . S aunder s has as ked you why you didn ' t

comp l a i n be fore you f i led thi s mot ion , o r why you didn ' t do

s omething about it I gue s s would be more part i cul a r ; wa s

there a t ri gg e r i ng event for you a s king and then having h im

ordered t o l eave the r e s idence ?

A . Y e s , there was .

SACRAMENTO O FF I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 9 4

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Q . What wa s t ha t ?

A . That wa s the inc ident whi l e he was s t i l l i n my hou s e ,

i t ' s in my o rde r , t ha t h e put both our daught e r s o r my

daugh t e r Jul i a on a t ime -out . I wa s i n Laura ' s room with

5 her . She cont i nued t o cry and comp l a i n about being on her

6 t ime - out , s i t t i ng by the door t o our f i r s t bathroom . He

7 couldn ' t s t and the sound o f h e r c rying . He - - Robert s ays

8 that he frequent l y ge t s migraine headaches whe r e noi s e s are

9 excruc i a t ing t o h im . She wouldn ' t be qui et .

1 0 Q . And what , i f anything , did he do ?

1 1 A . S o h e pul l e d down t he bath t owe l f r om the bar i n t he

1 2 bathroom and s hoved i t i n h e r mouth and t o l d h e r t o be

1 3 qu iet .

1 4

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Q . Shoved i t i n h e r mouth?

A . Pushed i t o n h e r face , shut up , shut up , be qui e t , I

can ' t t a ke i t . I j umped up f rom the othe r room , pul l ed h im

1 7 o f f , Bob , you are out o f cont r o l , s t op i t , s t op i t , you ' re

1 8 out o f cont r o l . Shor t l y thereafter there h a s been - - I

1 9 don ' t r ememb e r the exact dat e , I a s ked h im t o l e ave .

2 0

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Q .

A .

Q .

A .

Q .

A .

I s that incident

I t ' s in

-- de s c r ibed i n your - ­

Ye s , i t i s .

- - r eque s t f o r o rders i n thi s ca s e ?

Y e s . I t i s in my - - it ' s there . I t ' s there r i ght

2 6 under the incident i n which I couldn ' t r emember the exact

2 7 date with the r e f r i gerator door s l amming and h e r coming down

2 8 with h e r scoot e r .

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 9 5

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Q . And what w a s that about ?

A . That incident i s when I had t o l d him there were orders

for h im t o l eave , i t didn ' t have t o be l i ke t hi s , p l e a s e

4 f o l l ow the court orde r s to l eave my hou s e , and we were in

5 the kit chen , both g i r l s were in the back bedroom . I t r ied

6 t o do i t quiet l y , p l e a s e , it doe s n ' t have t o be l i ke thi s ,

7 and that i s when he s l ammed t he r e frigerator doo r that he

8 had opened and charged me and y e l l ed a t me enough whe re my

9 daught e r s could h e a r wha t we were d i s cu s s ing , and Jul ia came

1 0 down f r om the bedroom on her scooter t o t e l l him t o s top .

1 1 Q . I s that in

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A . That ' s

Q . -- the requ e s t for orde r s ?

A . That i s my i n i t i a l one . My paper - - i t keeps f a l l ing

apart becau s e o f the s t ap l e s , but i t ' s De script i on of Abus e

DV- 1 0 1 , p a g e 2 o f 2 , b o t h those incident s are de s cribed

1 7 t here .

1 8 Q . I s everyt h i ng you have t e s t i f i ed here t rue and correct

1 9 to the b e s t o f your abi l it y ?

2 0 A . Y e s .

2 1 Q . Do you want the r e s t raining order r e s t ra ining

2 2 Mr . Saunder s from your s e l f , t he children , t he hous e , the

2 3 o f fi c e , and a l l the things that you ' ve a s ked f o r i n thi s

2 4

2 5

2 6

2 7

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orde r ?

A . I do .

que s t ions

MR . SOKOL : Thank you .

THE COURT : S i r , do you have any addi t ional

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THE RES PONDENT : Y e s , I ' d l i ke t o - -

THE COURT : - - in l i ght o f h i s que s t ions ?

THE RES PONDENT : Ye s , Your Honor . I wou l d l i ke to

change what I a s ked for about before and addre s s t hi s . I

me an , f i r s t o f a l l , I would s a y I c l e a r l y wou l d l i ke Apr i l

Berger t o b e cha rged w i t h pe r j u r y .

THE COURT : I am not the prosecut o r .

THE RES PONDENT : I unde r s t and . One o f the key

things is the incident that s h e a l le ged t o - -

he r ?

THE COURT : Excus e me , do you h ave a que s t ion o f

T H E RES PONDENT : Yeah .

RECRO S S - EXAM I NAT I ON BY THE RES PONDENT :

Q . I f I did wha t you s a i d I did , which - - a l l e gedl y shoved

a towe l down our daught e r ' s t h roat , woul dn ' t she have

susta ined i n j u r i e s ?

MR . SOKOL : Ca l l s for conj ecture .

THE RES PONDENT : She i s a medical profe s s iona l .

THE COURT : The obj ection i s ove r ru l ed . You can

answer the que s t ion .

THE W ITNES S : I ' m a vet e ri n a r ian . A l l I know i s I

was very a l a rmed by your behavi o r . I was in the other room

down the ha l lwa y , your hand was on h e r mouth with a t owel

and she was c r yi n g , and I ran the f ive t o ten feet t o where

you were , p u l l ed you off her , and told you that i s i t , Bob ,

you know , you are out o f con t ro l . And you l o o ked at me l i ke

a dee r in t h e headl i ght , you were in a rage .

where you were .

I don ' t know

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Q . I sn ' t i t p o s s ib l e that you mi s read - - we l l , l e t me s a y ,

i s i t - - I ' m t rying t o t h i n k o f how t o b e s t phra s e i t .

Wel l , I ' l l s e e what h appens . I sn ' t i t p o s s ib l e that you

4 mi s re ad the ent i r e incident and were s everal rooms away and

5 didn ' t know about anyt h i ng about the exchange between Jul i a

6 and mys e l f ?

7 MR . SOKOL : Ca l l s f o r conj ecture .

8 THE COURT : Ove r ru l ed . I ' m s or r y , that i s not

9 what I meant t o s a y , s u s t a ined .

1 0 THE RES PONDENT : Okay .

1 1 Q . How i s i t p o s s ib l e how would with Jul i a and

1 2 Laura , actua l l y both o f them , l et ' s s a y Jul i a r i ght here

1 3 because you have an a l l egat ion rega rding Jul i a . How can

1 4 Jul i a have a s t rong bond and s t rong r e l at ionship w i t h me i f

1 5

1 6

I ever did such a t h ing t o he r ?

MR . SOKOL : As sume s a fact not in evidence .

1 7 THE COURT : Overruled . You can answer the

1 8 que s t i o n i f you are abl e .

1 9 THE W I TNESS : As I s a i d agai n , my de gree i s i n

2 0 ve t e r inary medicine . Animal s don ' t behave l i ke t h i s s o I

2 1 don ' t have any e xpe r t i s e in t h i s area . What I read i n the

2 2 pape r i s ch i ldren l ove people who mol e s t ed t hem, s o I don ' t

2 3 know how t o answer that ques t ion .

2 4

2 5

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2 8

Q .

Q .

THE RES PONDENT :

I unde r s t and wha t you s a id and s omet imes that i s t rue .

THE COURT : Do you have a que s t i o n ?

T H E RES PONDENT : Y e s .

Do you know that there - - do you know i f there are

SACRAMENTO OFFIC IAL COURT REPORTERS --------- 9 8

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1 expe rt w i tne s s e s that can a t t e s t t o the fact that chi ldren

2 who were - - a chi ld who wa s abu s ed a t the level you c l a im

3 that I abu s ed Jul i a , that can - - do you know that t h e y can

4 attest t o the f a ct that a chi l d woul d never go near that

5 parent , there woul d be vi s ib l e s igns ? Do you know about

6 that ?

7 MR . SOKOL : Obj ec t i on on a number o f grounds , Your

8 Honor . C a l l s for expert i s e o f t h i s witne s s , a s s ume s a fact

9 not in evidence .

1 0 THE COURT : The obj ec t i on s a r e s u s t a ined .

1 1 THE RES PONDENT : Okay .

1 2 Q . Do you know that the supervi sed v i s i t a t i on agency where

1 3 the g i r l s went h ave an exper t i s e that they can a s s e s s

1 4 whether o r not a child h a s been abu sed b y t he pa rent who

1 5 they have vi s i t at i on with?

1 6 MR . S OKOL : Obj e c t i on , i rr e l evant .

1 7 THE RES PONDENT : I - - go ahea d , Your Honor .

1 8 THE COURT : The obj ect i on i s over ru l ed . You can

1 9 answer the que s t i on i f you a r e abl e .

2 0 MR . SOKOL : And a s s ume s a fact not i n evidence .

2 1 THE COURT : That i s why I s a i d i f s h e i s ab l e .

2 2 THE W I TNE S S : I know the supe rvi s ed vi s i t s were

2 3 you exe r c i s e d , o f your e ight hours a wee k , ma ybe a coup l e

2 4 hours a wee k , and I know they are not p s ycho l og i st s ,

2 5 p s yc h i a t r i s t s . I know they dictate what happen s . Whether

2 6 o r not they di d any i n - t a ke , I don ' t know . I t h i n k t h e i r

2 7 j ob was j us t t o ma ke sure that the g i r l s had peaceful and

2 8 p o s i t ive int eract ions with you .

SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT REPORTERS --------- 9 9

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Q .

THE RES PONDENT :

They do h ave an expert i s e i n that and I was - -

MR . SOKOL : I don ' t know i f t h i s i s a que s t ion,

4 Your Honor .

5 THE RES PONDENT :

6 Q . I f you were s o concerned about Jul i a ' s s a fety o r

7 Laura ' s s a f e t y , why did you and your a t t o rney not ob j ect

8 t o - - not -- actua l l y a l l ow s up e rvi sed v i s i t a t ion at a l l and

9 not have comp l e t e l a c k o f vi s i t a t i on on my part , i f i t was

1 0 such an egregi ous incident a s you a l l e ged t o ?

1 1 A . That incident wa s one o f t h e c at a l y s t s that s ta r t ed me

1 2 t o h i re Richard t o get you evicted f rom my hous e . That was

1 3 i n Ju l y 1 st o f ' 0 6 that you were evicted from my hou s e , and

1 4 your behavi o r h a s e s c a l ated into be i ng increa s in g l y e r r a t i c

1 5

1 6

1 7

s ince t hen .

THE RES PONDENT : Excus e me , I obj ect , Your Honor .

She i s a vet e ri n a r i an , s he i s not a p s ycho l o g i st o r

1 8 p s ychiat r i s t , and h a s no expert i s e i n be ing abl e t o ma ke

1 9

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that a s s e s sment .

MR . S OKOL :

THE COURT :

have a new que s t i on ?

H e a s ked t h e que s t ion .

The obj ect i on i s ove r ru l ed . Do you

THE RES PONDENT : Yeah . Yes I do , Your Honor .

Q . I sn ' t i t pos s ib l e t hat the s ource o f Jul i a ' s up s e t wa s

you and not me ?

2 6 MR . SOKOL : Ob j ec t i on , c a l l s for con j e cture .

2 7 THE COURT : Susta ined . I t ' s vague a s t o t ime a s

2 8 we l l . We are not gett ing far w i t h thi s l ine o f inqu i ry ,

SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT REPORTERS -------- 1 0 0

1 Mr . S aunde r s .

2 THE RES PONDENT : I t ' s very t ough t o - - because

3 it ' s very p e r s ona l , because what happened - - the t ruth i s

4 ve ry f a r di f ferent from what she i s s a ying .

5 MR . SOKOL : I s t h i s a que s t i on , Your Hono r ?

6 THE RES PONDENT : We l l , I ' l l a s k a que s t ion .

7 Q . I s n ' t i t t rue that you are fab r i c a t i ng the ent i re event

8 a s i t happened? I ' m not s t a t ing that you didn ' t put Ju l i a

9 into a t ime - out and I went there l a t e r . I sn ' t i t i n fact

1 0 that you a r e fab r i c a t i ng the ent i re event a s you r e c a l l i t ?

1 1 THE W I TNES S : A s I r e ca l l i t you put Jul i a on a

1 2 t ime -out , and I t e st i f ied t ruthfu l l y a s my memor y a l l ows .

1 3 THE RES PONDENT : I gue s s I ' l l get my chance t o

1 4 spe a k about that l a t e r . Your Honor , I ' m j u st t r ying t o

1 5 f i gure out how t o dea l with a f a l s e accu s at i on , but I gue s s

1 6 a l l I can do i s a s k que s t i on s .

1 7 THE COURT : I t h i n k you ' ve done that . Why don ' t

1 8 we l e t h e r h ave her seat bac k .

1 9 THE RES PONDENT : Okay . I do a s k again t o r e s e rve

2 0 the r ight t o c a l l h e r back a s a witne s s l a t e r .

2 1 THE COURT : I unde r s t and . M r . S o ko l , do you have

2 2 anyt h ing e l s e you wanted t o add ?

2 3

2 4

2 5 the table .

MR . S OKOL : Submi tted , Your Hono r .

THE COURT : Ma ' am , why don ' t you have a seat at

2 6 Here i s my prob l em , I ' l l j us t cut t o the qui c k her e , I ' m

2 7 perfect l y wi l l ing t o s i t here for anoth e r two and a h a l f

2 8 hours o r s o and l i sten t o a l l M r . S aunde r s ' w i t ne s s e s , but I

SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS -------- 1 0 1

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don ' t rea l l y have an interes t i n doing that . Number one , I

t h i n k t h i s dome s t i c v i o l ence restraining orde r app l i cat ion

3 i s f l awed . I don ' t t h i n k i t cont a in s enough i n f ormat ion or

4 enough a l legat i o n s t o warrant the ma intenance o f a dome s t i c

5 v i o l ence re s t ra i n i ng order . I don ' t have t o find that

6 Mr . S aunder s i s t e l l i ng the t ruth o r M s . Van Beveren i s

7 t e l l ing t he t ruth about Sept emb e r 2 3 rd - - 2 2nd, excu s e me ,

8 to reach that conc l u s i on , because s h e i s not the protected

9 part y .

1 0 You f o l k s a r e obvi ou s l y engaged i n a war over cust ody and

1 1 vi s i t at i on that i n my mind rea l l y ha s nothi ng t o do with

1 2 t h i s dome s t i c v i o l ence r e s t ra i n ing orde r . I don ' t b e l i eve

1 3 Dr . Berger ' s t e s t imon y , qui t e frankl y . There a r e man y

1 4 things about her t e s t imon y that I f ind di f f i cu l t t o accept .

1 5 I t h i n k Mr . S aunde r s - - and I unde r s t and that peop l e don ' t

1 6 c a l l the p o l i ce and I unde r s t and that people don ' t

1 7 immedi a t e l y rush people t o t h e hospita l , and I unde r s t and

18 that peop l e don ' t document anyt h i ng and eve ryt h i ng that

1 9 happen s . But I don ' t unde r s t and and i t cannot be exp l a ined

2 0 how she can t a ke the s t and and t a l k about e s c a l a t i on and

2 1 then a f t e r l unch come in here and t a l k about what h a s got t o

2 2 be the mo st hor r i f i c event eve r , and s t i l l s a y that things

2 3 got wor s e and never have anything to report about

2 4 Mr . S aunder s abu s ing h e r , threatening her , cont a c t i n g her ,

2 5 viol a t ing the t emporary order o r anything e l s e . I don ' t

2 6 be l i eve her ver s i on o f what happened . And I am s t ru c k by

2 7 the f i l ing that was made on June 2 6t h o f ' 0 6 , and I can

2 8 unde r s t and pe rhaps the r e a s o n s f o r i t n o t i n c l u d i n g any o f

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t h i s i n f o rma t i on , not ca l l ing t he p o l i ce , and i n stead

pursuing this b y way o f a U PA and an evict i on .

6 2 2 0 o f the Fami l y Code dea l s w i t h t he r e a s on s why I woul d

i s sue a dome s t i c v i o l ence r e s t r a ining orde r . And I know

that there a r e p robab l y c o l le agues of mine a c ro s s the h a l l

who are going t o b e v e r y unhappy w i t h m y rul ing , but I

rea l l y don ' t care . I f h e h a s committed a c rime i n

Department 1 2 1 , s o b e i t . I f he ha s i n fu r i a t ed Judge

Balonon to t he p o int wher e he h a s done s omething in h i s

court ro om which h a s t r i ggered cus tody o rders and w i t h Gary

the c e s s a t i on o f vi s i ta t ion, so be i t , but I ' m not going to

a l l ow thi s t o become another a rrow in the quiver for t h i s

ongo i ng cus t ody batt l e .

I ' m sure that i f Mr . Saunder s had coun s e l , st i l l had

couns e l , he o r she woul d have a l ong conve r s a t i o n w i t h h im

about whe re he i s headed r e l at ive t o t he mot ion t hat he has

calendared for May 1 8 th . S o r r y , give me a s e cond - - i s n ' t

the h e a ring on May 1 8 th ?

THE RES PONDENT : Y e s , Your Honor .

THE COURT : I sn ' t the o rder for a p s ycho l og i c a l

eva l uat i on s omething t ha t wa s o rdered by Judge B a l onon?

MR . SOKOL : First by Judge Burge r - P l avan , repeated

by Judge Ba l onon seve r a l t ime s , and i t hasn ' t happened yet .

Ms . Van Beve ren - -

T H E COURT : I ' m s o r r y , I j us t wanted t o po int out

t h i s wa s s cheduled i n Judge Gary ' s depa rtment , whi ch i s why

I wa s pausing . I t ' s not even h i s orde r .

MR . SOKOL : But i t ' s there for

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that , the

THE COURT :

MR . SOKOL :

f i l i ng .

THE COURT :

MR . SOKOL :

THE COURT :

MR . SOKOL :

Okay .

I don ' t know i f t he Court h a s read

His f i l ing?

His f i l ing for

Have I read his f i l ing?

H i s f i l ing for - - h i s f i l ing f o r

8 the - - a s I s a i d in my - - be fore I even s ta rted t oda y , h i s

9 f i l ing f o r that cont i nued hea r i ng i s t o obj ect t o the o rder

1 0 that h a s been made s ever a l t imes for p s ychol o g i c a l

1 1 evalua t i on on the g rounds that p s ychi a t r y i s a f raud .

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THE COURT : I ' m s o r ry - -

MR . SOKOL : I woul d l i ke u s - - my c l i ent not to

1 4 have t o go t o another hearing . I a s k that a c a s e management

1 5 be put s o that h e doe s n ' t do another f i l i ng wit hout

1 6 agreement o f the Court , and i t ' s j us t out o f cont r o l , Your

1 7 Hono r .

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THE COURT : Okay , two things .

MR . SOKOL : Y e s .

THE COURT : Number one , h i s - - I wa s t rying t o

2 1 make a point , and my p o i nt rea l l y i s not s ome t h i ng that i s

2 2 cont r a r y t o your c l i ent ' s intere s t . The point that I was

2 3 going t o ma ke i s i f he had an att orney who wa s advi s i ng him

2 4 st i l l , he o r she woul d undoubtedl y be t e l l ing M r . Saunde rs

2 5 that t h i s part i cu l a r path that he i s t a king i s p roba b l y not

2 6 a path that i s des t ined to r e s u l t i n p o s i t i ve even t s

2 7 occu r r i ng w i t h rega rd t o p arent ing , t ime with h i s kids , et

2 8 cete r a . My gratuitou s c omment . Number two , h i s mot i on

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1 i sn ' t i n front o f me , s o I can ' t get r i d o f i t . Number

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three , unde r t he Fami l y Code I cannot order c a s e management

against t he part i e s ' j o int w i sh e s , and that i s the s t atute ,

4 de spite the cul tu re o f S a cramento County Sup e r i o r Court and

5 fami l y l aw . Number whatever I ' m on , three o r four , what you

6 probabl y should be do ing on May 1 8 t h i s sugge s t i ng t o

7 whoeve r i s h e a r ing t h i s case that a f i nding be made that

8 Mr . S aunde r s i s a vexat ious l i t i gant because that i s the

9 prop e r cour s e o f a c t i on , i f there i s a course o f act i on .

1 0 But we cannot force c a s e management on part i e s . And a l l o f

1 1 us i n t h i s b u i lding hope f u ll y n ow unde r s t and that that i s

1 2 the law . Pa rdon me , it ' s a lways been t h e l aw , but now

1 3 unde r s t and that t hat i s the way we are proceeding . The l a s t

1 4 thing that I did be fore I l e ft i n December was t a ke every

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case that I have unde r c a s e management , undo t hem a l l ,

unl e s s the peop l e had both cons ented , and I t h i n k every

1 7 other j udge o n the bench has done the s ame thing because we

1 8 don ' t h ave t he power t o do t h i s uni l a t e ra l l y .

1 9 I am not - - I want t o ma ke i t c l e a r , I ' m not un s ympathe t i c

2 0 t o your c l i ent ' s p o s i t i on b a s ed on what I ' ve h e a rd , but that

2 1 i s a di f ferent i s sue than the i s sue that i s being t r i ed in

2 2 front o f me , and that i s her - - I mean , s he i s ba s i c a l l y

2 3 t e s t i fying that i n June o f ' 0 6 , over two and a ha l f years

2 4 ago , a lmo s t three yea r s ago , t h i s event transpi red which

2 5 resulted in her evi cting Mr . S aunder s and s t a rt i ng t h rough

2 6 thi s three vol ume s et . And up unt i l Octobe r , i f I r e c a l l

2 7 correct l y , never had these a l l egations surfaced, neve r had

2 8 she s ought a DVRO , and only when minor s ' coun s e l get s bumped

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1 or bump s , or whatever h appened , i s t h i s s udde n l y s ome t hing

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that i s going t o come into the fore f ront .

MR . S OKOL : I respect ful l y d i s agree , Your Honor .

4 I know i t won ' t change your order but it seems t o me that i t

5 i s exact l y what has h appened . As the Court h a s - - j udge s

6 have made o rde r s he h a s reacted against those orde r s ,

7 cau s i ng more harm t o the chi l dren , more harm t o my c l i ent ,

8 and that h a s been a cont inuing cour s e o f conduct , a lmos t

9 ident i c a l , but i ncrea s ing s o much s o that h e now h a s no

1 0 respect for the Court o r the law and had t o b e hauled away

1 1 the l a s t t ime we were i n court .

1 2 THE COURT : L i ke I s a i d , I ' m not app lauding h i s

1 3 behavi o r . I ' m not appl auding h i s per formance . I ' m not

1 4 appl auding what occurred on S ep t embe r 2 2nd . I ' m j us t s aying

1 5 when you f i l e a DVRO you can ' t j ust l e ave g i ant gaps and

1 6 expect t hem a l l t o be f i l led i n , because he h a s a l l egedly

1 7 misbehaved i n the s ame way for two and a ha l f ye a r s . A s you

1 8 s a i d , i t ' s not going t o change my opinion .

1 9 But I certa i n l y hope that Mr . S aunder s i s not going t o be

2 0 around your c l i ent , not going t o be around her home , not

2 1 going t o be a round her j ob . Obvi ous l y she h a s made t ha t

2 2 perfect l y c l ea r , prett y sure Mr . S aunder s unde r s t ands t hat ,

2 3 and p re t t y sure t hat that i f t here i s any unwant ed cont act ,

2 4 any form o f haras sment , any form o f threat , s h e wi l l be

2 5 r ight b ac k in h e r e and t h i s t ime she wi l l document i t

2 6 qui c k l y and b e b a c k in Court .

2 7 MR . SOKOL : And a l l eged in addit i on a l l o f the

2 8 previous things t ogether w i t h the new - -

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THE COURT : She can a l l ege anyt hi ng she want s .

She can a l l e ge o l d thing s , new thing s , things that were l e f t

3 out . Many were l e ft out according t o h e r .

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THE RES PONDENT : Your Hono r , may I spe a k ?

THE COURT : Sure .

THE RES PONDENT : O ka y , thank you . I ' l l be brie f .

7 I f e e l t hat the who l e r e s t r ai ning o rder was j us t a gros s and

8 b l at ant att empt b y Apr i l Berger t o a l i enate my chi ldren from

9 me and keep them from me . I mean , I know that she had

1 0 prob l ems with her own fathe r over h i s h o s t i l e a t t i t ude and

1 1 ever ything l i ke that , and I kind o f f e e l l i ke I t o o k s ome o f

1 2 the brunt o f that . M y chi ldren and I have always shared a

1 3 l oving r e l at ionship and I have a mul t i tude o f w i tne s s e s

1 4 here , we wou l d b e here for days i n that ca s e , and I don ' t

1 5 want t o h ave t o do that , who h a s seen my chi l dren togethe r ,

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who h a s spent t ime with u s and l ived with u s and things o f

that sort , and , you know , I j us t f e e l t hat s h e i s not rea l l y

l o o king out f o r t he b e s t intere s t o f my chi ldren . I t ' s j ust

she is t rying t o keep t hem f rom me .

THE COURT : Fol ks , you are undoubtedly going to

have a long-cause hearing , r i ght ?

MR . SOKOL : We j u st had i t .

THE COURT : No , I mean on cus tody . I me an , a t

some point , y o u know, everything t h a t h e j u s t s a i d , a l l the

witne s s e s that a re out in the ha l l , and I ' m s u r e your c l i ent

2 6 h a s an a rmy o f her own . I mean , you are going t o have a

2 7 cust ody and vi s i t at i on hearing .

2 8 MR . SOKOL : I hope not .

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THE RES PONDENT : Your Hono r , can I ca l l on your

yea r s of expert i s e ? Al l I rea l l y want for my chi ldren and

3 mys e l f i s that t o be abl e to ma intain a r e l at i on s h ip with

4 them and see t hem and have them see me . I me an , i t breaks

5 my heart for my daughters to ca l l me months a go and s a y I

6 spoke t o one o f t hem and s a i d how a r e you doing and s he s a i d

7 not good , and I s a i d why , she s a id I can ' t s l eep a t n i ght , I

8 mi s s you daddy , you a lways t u c k me i n . And my other

9 daugh t e r g e t s on the phone and s a ys , daddy , I mi s s you , what

1 0 did w e do .

1 1 THE COURT : S i r , I ' m not - -

1 2 THE RES PONDENT : I s there s ome remedy for t hi s ? I

1 3 would be mo re than happy t o g o s omeplace with Apr i l Berger

1 4 upon your recommendat i on and t r y t o wor k through thi s s t u f f .

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I ' l l do a lmo s t anything for - -

THE COURT : I ' m not going t o ma ke any

recommendat ions . You f o l k s have gone through a mul t i tude o f

peop l e . You ' ve gone t h rough a mul t i t ude o f peop l e t hat you

s aw before you l e ft t he hous e in 2 0 0 6 , three i f I recal l ,

you ' ve been t o mul t ip l e peop l e s ince 2 0 0 6 . I don ' t have a

cure for what a i l s your relat i onship . I don ' t have a cure

for what a i l s the r e l at i onships that you have with your

chi l dren , i f i n fact you do . You have e x i s t ing court

o rde r s , I have nothing t o do with t h o s e court o rders .

THE RES PONDENT : R i ght .

THE COURT : I ' m not r e i n s t ituting cust ody and

v i s i t a t i o n , t h o s e o rder s s tand . They are made a c ro s s the

h a l l , including the order that you plan on f i gh t i n g on May

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1 8 th . I don ' t h ave a s olution . I don ' t know o f a

prof e s s i ona l - - I mea n , i f eve rything that i s a l l e ged about

those various peop l e b a i l ing out and r e fu s i ng to work with

you is t rue - -

THE RES PONDENT : I t ' s not .

THE COURT : -- I don ' t have a s o l ut i on .

THE RES PON DENT : Yeah , i t ' s de f i n i t e l y not t rue

about that .

THE COURT : I ' l l get you thi s in a s econd .

THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Honor .

( Proceedings concluded . )

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CERT I FI CATE OF S HORTHAND REPORTER

- -- oOo- - -

3 I , ANGELA L . WESTON , a Cert i f ied Shorthand Reporter

4 o f t h e State o f Cal i fornia , do he reby c e rt i fy that I am a

5 di s i nt e re s ted p e r s on herei n ; that I reported the forego ing

6 hear ing i n shorthand writ ing to t he b e s t o f my abi l i t y ; that

7 I thereafter c au s ed my short hand w r i t i ng to be t ranscribed

8 i nto t ypewr i t ing .

9 I further cert i fy that I am not o f coun s e l o r

1 0 attorney f o r any o f t h e part i e s t o s a i d hea r i ng , o r i n any

1 1 way int e r e s t ed i n the outcome o f s a i d hearing .

1 2 I N WITNE S S WHEREOF , I have hereunto s e t my hand t h i s

1 3 2 9th da y o f May , 2 0 0 9 .

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CAU S E : I n r e Mat t e r o f Berger v . S aunde r s

COURT : S a cramento Count y Court

JUDGE : Honorabl e Thomas M . CEC I L

DATE : MAY 8 , 2 0 0 9

ANGELA L . WESTON CSR No . 1 1 6 5 8

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