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Drink Tea,
Eat Cake
Talks and Dialogues on
Non-duality and Liberation
Richard Sylvester
with a foreword by Tony Parsons
Non-Duality Press
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DRINK TEA, EAT CAKE
First English language edition published October 2011by Non-Duality Press
Originally published in 2011 by Verlagsgruppe Random House GmbHunder the title: Wer braucht eigentlich Nirwana?
Richard Sylvester 2011 Non-Duality Press 2011
Richard Sylvester has asserted his right under the Copyright, Designs
and Patents Act, 1988, to be identified as author of this work.All rights reservedNo part of this book may be reproduced or utilized in any form orby any means, electronic or mechanical, without prior permission
in writing from the Publisher.
Non-Duality Press | PO Box 2228 | Salisbury | SP2 2GZUnited Kingdom
www.non-dualitypress.com
Isbn: 978-1-908664-01-3
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To Tony, Claire, Jen and Eckhard. You have all inspired this
book in different ways.
I do nothing. I never think that I am the one who must see to
it that cherries grow on stalks.
C. G. Jung
Memories, Dreams, Reflections
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vii
Contents
Foreword by Tony Parsons ...................................................ix
Introduction .........................................................................xi
1. Love In A Fur Coat ..........................................................1
2. The Lost Sutra Of Lord Buddha .................................... 91
3. Spiritual Anarchy ........................................................ 171
4. What About Love? ...................................................206
5. There Are A Thousand Different People
Inside Your Head. .......................................................232
6. The Hotel Kitsch ........................................................257
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ix
Foreword
During the last decade the terms non-dual and Advaita have
been used for a multitude of publications, teachings and com-
munications of all kinds which, in my view, do not have anydirect relevance to the real meaning and dynamic that those
words point to. The titles non-dual and Advaita attempt to
describe the principle of wholeness, unicity or that which is
already at one.
A unified reality in which there are not two or there is
no other surely confirms the illusory nature of separation. If
separation is illusory, then any attempt to not be separate is
rooted in a dualistic perspective. So the basic principle of any
teaching which attempts to transform an illusory state of being
separate into a state of at-oneness is based on the belief in a
divided reality and cannot therefore claim to be non-dual.
It is rare to find a communication on this subject that isnt
anything other than a dualistic and therefore prescriptive teach-
ing of becoming. It is rare to find a spiritual message that isnt
anything other than a blueprint for personal effort and change.
It is rare to find a work that is devoid of any agenda to satisfy
the seekers need to be given a path or a purpose to follow.
However, Richards latest book is just such a rarity, together
with his previous works.
In Drink Tea, Eat Cake everything that is expressed aboutthe nature of non-duality has a fundamental principle run-
ning through it. Every response to a rich variety of questions
points unwaveringly towards the non-dual perspective. He
shares his experiences of his previous trip to Germany together
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with interesting and usually relevant stories. The reader is car-
ried along and inspired by an expression that comes out of a
deep and rich experience of life with all of its complexity andhumour. As the reader progresses through the book a recogni-
tion can arise of a constancy and an uncompromising integrity
that speaks directly of something other There is a sense of
a resonance that is beyond the words and the meaning that they
seem to carry.
He responds to questions about death, the natural state of
being, the guru game, the nature of love, the difference betweennatural and neurotic feelings, the attraction that the seeking
mind has for struggle and complexity and much more.
Here is a book to savour, to chuckle with and to keep and
refer to as a rare work of undiluted non-dualism.
Tony Parsons
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xi
Introduction
One day my German publisher, Carl, who was in London to
attend a book fair, phoned me and suggested we meet up. So
on a Sunday afternoon I travelled up to London and we spenta couple of hours talking and drinking coffee in the bar of the
Radisson Hotel in Covent Garden.
My second book about non-duality, The Book Of No One
was due to be published in Germany the following spring and
Carl proposed that I come to Germany at that time and give a
series of talks to publicise the book. He would accompany me
around the country and act as my interpreter. Usually I dont
travel very far from my home in Kent, except for regular trips
to the mountains and coasts of Wales, but this sounded like it
might be fun so I agreed. When he was back in Germany, Carl
phoned me again and suggested that we record all the meetings
during my tour and that I edit the transcripts into a third book.
What you have in your hands, or on your lap, or on your coffee
table or duvet, or on the bus or train, or lying next to you on the
grass on a sunny day in the park, is the result.
I visited seven cities in nine days, travelling between each by
train and as you will read becoming ill between the fourth and
fifth cities, Berlin and Hamburg. This added a little unexpected
excitement to the tour. So this book is what it is. Each chapter
is a record of a different meeting, except there was no record-ing equipment at my last venue so that one is missing, apart
from a couple of stories that I remember telling there and have
included here. As each meeting was in a way an introduction
to non-duality there is necessarily some repetition. During the
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RICHARD SYLVESTER
tour I was treated most generously, put up in hotels, taken to
restaurants and bars and driven from railway stations to hotels
and from hotels to talk venues in cream-coloured Mercedestaxis.
There is a lively and sophisticated interest in non-duality
in Germany, just as there is in England. This is not true of
every country. When my first book, I Hope You Die Soon, was
published in France, I was warned to expect low sales and no
royalties because, according to my informant, They are still
into urine-drinking yogis there. I have no idea if the commentabout yogis is true but I can confirm that the prediction about
royalties proved accurate.
A friend who kindly read this book as it was being com-
pleted commented that its likely readers would include seekers
who are ready to stop. Certainly if you are still heartily enjoy-
ing your spiritual search, it is probably best that you put down
this book right now and also make a mental note never to go to
a talk on non-duality, not even once. If what is written here or is
spoken at a talk is really heard, that will be the end of spiritual
seeking and your head will be in the tigers mouth. Then there
will be no escape.
Spiritual seeking can, of course, be great fun and very
entertaining. It can provide us with hope, meaning and pur-
pose, a comforting circle of like-minded friends, the company
of charismatic teachers and gurus and a means of disposing of
our surplus income. It can also give us an excellent way of struc-
turing much of the time that we have between birth and death
and provide us with almost endless opportunities to travel to
exotic destinations equipped with arms full of vaccinations and
rucksacks full of diarrhoea pills.But seeking also guarantees that we do not find, because it
takes us away from presence. As long as we are looking for the
secret of enlightenment over there in some far away place and
some future time, we cannot notice that this is already it right
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xiii
INTRODUCTION
here, right now. This is already that which we seek, the prom-
ised land, the hoped-for paradise. But the person can never see
this. This can only be seen when the person falls away. Whenthe self is there, muddying the view with its neuroses and its
incessant shouting for attention, then it cannot be seen that this
is it and this is sufficient.
These seven words, This is it and this is sufficient, are the
most simple way I have ever found to sum up liberation. When
oneness is seen, which can only happen when the person is not
there to see it, then it is realised not only that this is all thereis, but that this is enough. When the grimy veil of the person
is not there diminishing and taking for granted the everyday,
and clamouring for something more exciting to happen, then
the ordinary becomes transformed into this wonderful play of
consciousness.
Seeing oneness is the end of searching, because when the
everyday is seen as a miracle there is no need to search for any-
thing else to spice up life with. The leaves rustling in the wind,
the texture of a dogs coat as it is stroked in the park, the taste of
fresh coffee on the verandah of the caf are seen to be enough.
This is why, although liberation has no necessary implications,
there tends to be relaxation and a profound enjoyment of simple
things when the person has dropped away.
Many of us today are breaking away from the old adversarial
habits of religion and seeking for the common inner core that
we feel must lie at the heart of all religions and spiritual paths.
We are no longer focussing only on the astonishingly colourful
surface differences. We are trying instead to find the shared
hidden truth beneath. Something, we feel, must connect images
as disparate as the crucifixion, Ganesh the elephant-headedGod, Father Sun and Mother Moon, the communion supper,
Kali with her necklace of human skulls, mandalas, whirling Sufi
mystics, Golden Buddha statues, medicine wheels and Isis the
River Goddess.
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RICHARD SYLVESTER
Non-duality, oneness, lies at the still centre of all religions
and spiritual paths, although it is rarely acknowledged and
has been little spoken about throughout history. Although weare each born into wholeness, at an early age we acquire self-
consciousness, and in that process a sense of separation and
loss arises. Somehow we feel that we have been thrown out of
paradise, and whether this is recognised consciously or not, we
spend our life trying to make ourself whole again so that we
can re-enter paradise. We have wonderful imaginations and an
enormous capacity for telling stories, and the great evolutionarytree of religions, of spiritual paths, of the sagas of prophets and
gods and holy men and holy madmen, is the result of our forlorn
and hopeless search.
Our search is hopeless because we never lost paradise. The
paradise which we seek to re-enter is always with us, but hidden
by the presence of the separated self. We do not need to find
paradise, we need to lose our sense of separation to see that this is
already it. But the separated self is unable to lose itself, precisely
because it is a false self. The false self is unable to see reality.
The eye cannot see itself
Except as a pale reflection in a mirror.
The self cannot find itself
Except as a pale reflection in a dream.
Nevertheless, uncaused and unprompted, the false self can drop
away and in that death of the person wholeness, unity, non-
duality can be seen again. The false self may drop away while
the individual is still alive but it need be of no concern if it does
not, because at the death of the body there is only liberationin any case. I am writing these words five days after the death
of Ramesh Balsekar, who wrote, What does death ultimately
mean? It means the end of the struggle of daily living. It means
the end of duality.
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INTRODUCTION
In the seeing of non-duality (in liberation which is the same
thing) it is seen that there is no person with autonomy and
responsibility who makes choices about something called theirlife. It is also seen that everything arises out of nothing, that at
the heart of this wonderful manifestation there is emptiness.
This emptiness has been realised and spoken about in many
traditions, in Buddhism, in Taoism and in Hinduism, for exam-
ple, and even in Christianity. Sometimes it has been spoken
about openly. Sometimes it has only been whispered about, for
there have been many times when it has been very dangerousto speak about this, because of the terrible power wielded by
priesthoods. Recently, however, there has been a new phenom-
enon. The views that there is no person who makes any choice,
and that everything arises out of emptiness, are now supported
by science.
Developments in neuroscience suggest strongly that there
is no possibility of there being a unified autonomous person at
the centre of our experience. Many psychologists now agree
that free will is an illusion. And quantum physicists give us a
picture of the universe in which even the smallest elements of
matter disintegrate into mere vibrating energy, in which every-
thing manifests, as it were, from sound. It is said in the Yogic
tradition that the root mantra Aum is the first and original
vibration of the universe. In the beginning was the word, and
the word was Aum.
Nevertheless, in spite of this coming together of science and
mysticism, the views of materialist science and of non-duality
about the nature of consciousness are diametrically opposed.
Science sees matter as primary, and conciousness as an acciden-
tal by-product of matter. It claims that we are essentially physi-cal structures which have developed consciousness by chance
because of the increasing complexity of the organisation of
cells, neurons, chemicals and electrical impulses in our brains.
In other words, without matter there is no consciousness. But
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RICHARD SYLVESTER
in liberation it is seen that there is only consciousness, which
is the same as saying that there is only emptiness out of which
all phenomena, including physical phenomena, arise. In otherwords, without consciousness there is no matter.
The physical does not give rise to consciousness. Conscious-
ness gives rise to the physical. Science can never discover this. It
can only be discovered by direct seeing when the person drops
away.
Nor, for all its instruments, can science discover that the
ultimate nature of emptiness is unconditional love.Finally, why is the title of this bookDrink Tea, Eat Cake?
When liberation is seen life tends to become less complicated.
All the stories that may have fuelled our life drop away and we
are left with the simplicity of this. In that simplicity, the small
and ordinary things in life may really be enjoyed. I am often
asked for advice and I usually refuse to give it. But if I were
to give advice, it would be to relax and enjoy whatever simple
things you like doing. It doesnt have to be drinking tea and
eating cake. It might be drinking coffee and walking round the
park. But until the everyday can be enjoyed, the miracle of this
is being missed.
In Zen they say Before liberation, hew wood and draw
water. After liberation, hew wood and draw water. I prefer
Before liberation, drink tea and eat cake. After liberation,
drink tea and eat cake. But they add up to the same. There
is no difference. Before liberation and after liberation, being
asleep and being awake, are the same thing.
An alternative title that was suggested for this book was
The Tigers Mouth, a phrase from Ramana Maharshi, who said
Your head is already in the tigers mouth, and there is noescape. Many people who come across nonduality find that
it gives rise to no interest in them and they go away, either
never to return or perhaps to return much later. But if you
come across nonduality and it seizes you, as it seized me, as an
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xvii
INTRODUCTION
inescapable obsession, then as Ramana said, Your head is in
the tigers mouth and there is nothing left to be done other
than wait until the tiger bites your head off.
A Note On Communication and Translation
Trying to communicate any idea, no matter how simple, to
another person is fraught with difficulty. The words that leave
my mouth or pen may not properly convey my thoughts andfeelings. The words that you then hear or read may mean
something a little different, or entirely different, to what they
mean to me. Somehow we try to move towards some kind of
shared meaning, but we will never really know to what degree
we achieve this. Essentially, in this as in all other ways, we each
live in our own reality. The universe that we inhabit is ours and
ours alone.
In trying to communicate about nonduality, the problems
become compounded. Nonduality is not an experience, it is not
a phenomenon of any kind. Rather, nonduality is that which
gives rise to all experience, while also encompassing all experi-
ence itself. Words describe phenomena. Words cannot describe
nonduality. Even the simple choice as to whether to use the
word nonduality or oneness or nothing or no-one or being
or consciousness or awareness proliferates confusion and gives
rise to a great deal of conflict and debate, even sometimes lead-
ing to web-rage, which is the internet equivalent of road-rage,
on internet forums.
Now, to add a little extra fun to the proceedings, let us
compound the difficulty even more by tossing in the furtherproblems of translating from one language to another, as hap-
pened on this tour. There has now opened up an even richer
field of possible misunderstanding. Consider poor Carl. There
are concepts in one culture that are lacking in another, as well
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RICHARD SYLVESTER
as allusions that are invariably lost in translation, summed up
by Eugene Ionesco who wrote The French for London is Paris.
And Carl didnt just have to translate my words into Germanfor the audience, and the audiences words into English for me.
There were also people in the audience who spoke English to
a greater or lesser degree. They would call out questions and
comments in English which I would answer, leaving Carl having
to intervene and stop us so that he could translate both of us
for the non-English speakers in the room. And sometimes Carl
would translate a question for me which he had not understoodin German and I did not understand in English, even though he
had translated literally what had been said. No wonder his head
hurt before the end of the tour.
You get the point, I hope. No need to labour it further.
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1
1. Love In A Fur Coat
Wherever possible, trains are the only way to travel. Unlike cars,
we dont need to drive them. Unlike aeroplanes, they dont suf-
fer from turbulence. So one sunny Friday afternoon at Colognerailway station my publisher, Carl, met me and whisked me by
taxi to my hotel. He then produced a tiny recording device and
began to study the instructions intently and, it seemed to me as
I watched him, with great puzzlement. As the main rationale
for this tour was to be the production of a new book from the
talks which I was to give, a lot seemed to depend on the effec-
tiveness of this very small device and Carls ability to work out
how to use it.
A few hours later Carl, who was also to act as my interpreter,
and I sat in the back room of a charming shop and therapy centre
which sold books, angel cards, little buddha ornaments, crystals
and incense. On the table between us was the dodgy-looking
recording machine. It was clear that the shop and centre was
being run as an act of love rather than from any real expectation
of making a profit. The small back room was already filling up
and the large Buddha statue in the corner had to be carried
reverently into the massage room next door to make room for
more living, breathing beings. The talk was given to a group of
knowledgeable, curious people, including the kindly lady who
owned the shop and a couple of young men who seemed toknow a lot about spiritual philosophy. Another lady, it quickly
became clear, was suffering from a deep emotional upset. She
continually wrung her hands, sighed deeply and talked animat-
edly to her neighbours. She seemed both unhappy and angry.
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RICHARD SYLVESTER
**********
Cologne Friday Evening
As I sit here I am thinking that I am the only person in this
room who doesnt know whats going on. That seems quite
appropriate to me.
I remember a time when I thought that I knew a lot, but
now I know very little, and I know less and less as time goes by.I hope that at some time in the future I will get to a point where
I know nothing at all.
By the way, Carl and I have not worked like this together
before. So this is a great experiment tonight.
Isnt this a lovely room? Isnt it beautiful? It has such a nice
energy.
(Someone comments rather impishly) Perhaps the Buddha should
be brought back in?
Yes, we could bring the Buddha back in but you might all want
your money back if we did that.
Perhaps you have come along to hear me speak about some-
thing, but as far as I am concerned I have come here to talk
about nothing. I mean that in a very literal way. I will talk about
nothing or the No-thing from which everything arises. I want
to suggest to you that when the person is not there, when the
self is not there, it becomes obvious that everything arises out
of nothing.
In a way, it is a puzzle why this isnt obvious when the personis there, but the reason for that is very simple. It is because the
person is blocking out the view of nothing. The person seems
so solid and it blocks out the view so successfully that nothing
doesnt get a look-in. Nothing doesnt get a chance to be seen.
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LOVE IN A FUR COAT
(To Carl) This is really an interesting experiment for me.
(Laughing quietly) I have a very bad memory so I am finding that
I cant remember the beginning of a sentence when we finallyget to the end of it together. The stopping and starting required
by this translation is extremely unusual for me.
What I will do is talk for a while and then we will have
questions and answers and some discussion. Having said that,
please interrupt me at any time if you want to ask a question or
make a comment or even an objection.
Lets get back to talking about nothing and everything,the nothing from which everything arises, and the everything
which arises from nothing. Traditionally, the metaphor of the
ocean and the waves is often used to explain what we are talk-
ing about here. Im sure that most of you know this metaphor.
The waves represent everything that is going on for the person
in everyday life, the stuff of our everyday experience. We all
know that at times this can be very intense, the waves can be
very choppy indeed. The ocean represents oneness, silence, the
stillness from which everything arises. While we are entranced
by the waves, while they seem to be the only thing that is going
on for us, it is impossible for us to recognise the ocean as well.
But of course we know that the waves are simply the ocean, that
there isnt any difference between the waves and the ocean. We
could say that the waves are the ocean waving. They are the
ocean saying Hi.
(Carl, laughing) In German, I am waving is different to the
oceans waves.
(To Carl, laughing) Oh, so we have a problem of translationalready?
(Carl, laughing) Yes, we already have a problem. OK, our experi-
ment has failed.
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RICHARD SYLVESTER
Then let me try another image. Imagine you are in a little boat
on the surface of the ocean. You have no chance of experiencing
the stillness of the ocean deep below you, because your boat isrocking up and down, just like life rocks you up and down. The
only thing that the person is usually aware of is the waves. This
is what life is like for most of us, most of the time. This is the
state of separation in which 99.9% of us live.
This state of separation doesnt arise straight away when we
are born. We are born into a state of unity with no awareness
of separation whatsoever. But after a while self-consciousnessand a sense of separation arise. They arise together, when we
are still very young.
In a way self-consciousness and a sense of separation are the
same thing. Think about what being self-conscious means. It
means that I become conscious of myself. I become conscious of
myself as separate from mummy, daddy, brother, sister, every-
one and everything in the space around me.
Once separation has occurred, I have started on this great
adventure called Being A Person. All the adults, all the big
people around me, conspire to help me in this great adventure
of separation because they all believe in it too. They all believe
that they are separate and they even see it as their duty to help
me to become successfully separate. So they are very helpful
indeed, giving me what they think are great gifts, such as a
sense of responsibility, a sense of duty and of morality, perhaps
a religion, some rules so that I can become really good at this
business of living. They are like the faeries at Sleeping Beautys
christening, bringing her gifts. Some of these gifts turn out to
be very toxic.
Being A Person is ambivalent. It is fun, it is exciting and itis also a real pain.
Once I believe that I am an individual, I feel separate from
the world and of course that brings a feeling of vulnerability. I
will probably have been given a long list of instructions about
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LOVE IN A FUR COAT
how to become a successful individual, perhaps even a happy
individual, in spite of the evidence that nobody has ever man-
aged to do that before me.We all know what these instructions consist of. Here you
are, Richard, youre an individual. Get yourself an education, a
job, a relationship. Have children and get yourself a big car. Ill
have a Mercedes as we are in Germany.
(Someone shouts out) We like Bentleys better.
A Bentley! Get yourself a Bentley and you are really successful!
Once I am an individual, theres dissatisfaction to be over-
come, so the message that I can become successful is honey to
my ears.
(Carl looks puzzled. Richard turns to him. It turns out later that
he has unconsciously invented this rather sticky metaphor, thereby
setting Carl a considerable problem of translation.)
Honey to my ears doesnt work?
(Carl, struggling but doing his best to make sense of this) Honey
to my ears sounds paradoxical. We have music to my ears, but
honeys nice
O.k. Well stick with honey, though I am wondering if I have
just made that metaphor up.
Being a person, being an individual, automatically involves
dissatisfaction. As soon as there is a sense of separation, the
simplicity of this ( Richard gestures round the room to indicate theordinary and the everyday) is not enough anymore. But when we
are one month old this is enough, and if the person drops away
then suddenly this will be enough again.
Really that is it. That is all I have got to say. We could all
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RICHARD SYLVESTER
go home now. That really is the core of what this meeting is
about. When the person drops away, it is the return to paradise
because this (Richard gestures round the room again) is seen to beenough. It is seen that there is nothing missing in this, so how
could this not be paradise?
Another way of describing the sense of separation which
happens at such a young age, is that we are thrown out of para-
dise. This is what the biblical creation myth and many other
creation myths are about. Self-consciousness separates us from
oneness and then suddenly this is not enough anymore. We havegot to have this plus a Bentley or this plus a better relationship
or a better job or more money or a bigger house. We have got to
have this with a cherry on top.
When I use the word liberation, all I mean is the return
to paradise which happens when the sense of being a separate
person drops away. In this return to paradise, it is noticed that
this is already enough. This doesnt need anything added, it
is already the promised land. This is already what we are all
searching for.
It really is that simple.
So what are we doing here? What are we searching for in
this place? This (Richard waves his hands round the room), this
(Richard points to the wall), this (Richard embraces the space
around himself) is already the promised land. This is already the
fascinating stuff, the fascinating perfection, which we think we
are searching for. If we cannot see that, it is only because we are
searching for it and because we are in the way.
It should be obvious that as long as we are searching, we
cannot notice that this is already what we are searching for,
precisely because we are searching for it. Searching means weare looking for it somewhere else, so we cannot be noticing that
this is already it.
Look at this. (Richard takes a flower from a nearby vase and
strokes it.) Isnt it lovely? What could we possibly add to this
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LOVE IN A FUR COAT
flower through any kind of searching? It is perfect in itself.
What stops us from seeing its perfection is simply the sense
that I am a person with a responsibility for this terrible burdencalled my life.
I received an e-mail the other day from a woman in Amster-
dam who was celebrating the realization of hopelessness. It
might sound paradoxical to celebrate hopelessness but I would
like to suggest to you that hope is a terrible burden. Hope and
dissatisfaction are the opposite sides of the same coin. They
usually walk hand in hand through our lives. Dissatisfactionleads to hope. Hope almost invariably leads to dissatisfaction.
This woman expressed the wonderful relief that came from
realising her hopelessness. When we realise our hopelessness,
then so much of the burden that we carry through life can fall
away. (Richard gives a deep sigh to demonstrate this relief.)
But nevertheless she cant do it herself? She cant bring about this
relief herself?
No she cant. This is one of the most the frustrating things
about this communication.
People often ask me for recommendations, but I have no
recommendations to make. What is more, I dont need to make
any because, as you know, there are hundreds of teachers and
gurus who are happy to give you recommendations. You defi-
nitely do not need another person sitting here giving you yet
more recommendations.
But if I did have a recommendation it would be to relax.
Unfortunately, as you have just said, of course the person can-
not do that.
(Someone in the audience speaks in German for quite a long time.
Carl asks her) Shall I try to sum this up?
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RICHARD SYLVESTER
This is a strange experience for me. (Laughing) In my talks in
England I often feel that I dont know what is going on, but here
I feel it especially strongly.
(Carl to Richard) Ill try again. Nearly all people have problems
with fear. When you say that relaxation is to be recommended, then
of course it should be helpful on the way to salvation. Meditation
should be helpful as well in diminishing our fear and helping us to
continue on the way until were there. (Laughter from some mem-
bers of the audience who have begun to tune in to what Richard issaying.)
Where? What salvation? There is no salvation. Im not sure
what you mean by salvation but for some people salvation is the
Bentley of the spiritual arts.
(The speaker tries to clarify what she means.) When I meditate,
sometimes I get into a state of consciousness where I feel liberated
and thats when I feel I have had a taste of it.
But liberation is not a state. It isnt something that I can ever
feel. We could say that liberation is simply what is left when I
am not there anymore. We could equally say that everything is
liberation in any case, whether I am there or not.
However, I do have a past history of meditation, a very long
past history. Meditation can bring many wonderful experiences.
I would even say that it can be incredibly helpful to some people
in resolving psychological and emotional problems. In fact it
was incredibly helpful to me as a person.
I have also met people who hated meditation, who felt thatit never did anything for them. But whether we meditate or
whether we dont meditate, although those experiences can be
very profound, they nevertheless have nothing to do with what
we are talking about tonight. They have nothing to do with the
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disappearance of the person. We may meditate and the person
may drop away or not drop away. We may not meditate and the
person may drop away or not drop away.What we are talking about tonight has nothing to do with
any of the stories that the mind tells about cause and effect and
it has nothing to do with anything that we think that we are
doing. It has to do only with the dropping away of any sense
that there is a me. As the sense of me is a false sense, it cannot
make itself disappear. It cannot disappear itself. The false self
cannot realise reality.(Richard suddenly laughs heartily.) I have just realised that I
have no idea whether Carl is saying anything like what I am say-
ing. (Laughter) (To Carl) Perhaps you are talking about Marxist
philosophy.
So what you are describing as liberation is in effect totally independ-
ent of all circumstances.(It is one of the philosophically inclined
young men who has spoken.)
Yes, that is a good way of putting it. Cause and effect dont
apply here but the mind resists that idea intensely. The mind
both resists it and resents it because the mind is always trying
to work everything out, trying to lead us to some goal, and that
requires the operation of cause and effect. Of course in much
of life, cause and effect seem to work.
(The same young man) When the person drops away, does that feel
as if any identification with the body ceases? Because separation
comes from feeling imprisoned in the body.
There can be a complete dropping away of the sense of the per-
son, and of any sense of identification with the body as well.
Then what often happens is that the sense of being a separate
individual comes back, leaving a very disappointed and puzzled
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person who knows that something profound has happened.
They want to get back to it, yet they arent able to do anything
about that.This temporary dropping away of the person is sometimes
referred to as awakening.
Later, there can be another dropping away, a total disap-
pearance of the person. After some time what often happens is
that the sense of a physical location comes back, but the sense of
constriction or imprisonment that a person experiences disap-
pears. After that, the sense of physical location may hang aboutor not. Usually it does to some extent, but it is not important.
It doesnt matter.
This second disappearance, when the person does not
return, is sometimes referred to as liberation.
By the way, it doesnt have to happen like this. There dont
have to be two specific events like this. There can just be a
gradual gliding into seeing liberation.
You dont use the word God. You use the metaphor of the waves
and the ocean and the rowing boat. Can you say more about this
metaphor?
When liberation is seen, when the person has dropped away,
then the stillness and silence of the depths of the ocean become
obvious. The rowing boat of everyday life is still there and it
might still be rocking around, but there is also an awareness of
the stillness and the silence of the ocean.
When I say that the rowing boat is still there, I mean that
life goes on. Activity goes on. Stuff goes on happening. This is
the case unless liberation coincides with physical death.
Why did we drop out of unity and become enmeshed in duality?
Why do we have to suffer? Why do we have to go through all this to
get to where we want to go? (The questioner is genuinely puzzled.)
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There is more than one question there. Firstly, we are not going
anywhere or through anything.
All questions come from the mind, but Why questionshave a particular hold on the mind. The clearest answer I can
give is that there is no Why. What happens simply happens.
But lets say a bit more, while acknowledging the dangers of
asking Why questions.
We could say that oneness, non-duality, nothing, no-thing
simply delights in this stuff that is happening. In the traditional
descriptions in Advaita Vedanta, the word which is sometimesused to describe this is lila. We could translate lila as play,
game or sport. Just as we like reading novels and watching
plays and films, we could say that oneness likes this entertain-
ment.
Oneness is playful. This is the cosmic entertainment. This
is the play of oneness.
I realise that I have avoided your question about suffering. It
is up to you whether you want to come back to it. Have another
go at it if you like.
(With a smile) We dont need to do that.
O.k. (Richard smiles, perhaps with relief at not having to talk about
suffering).We will leave suffering for now.
(But someone else in the audience refuses to let suffering go. After
all, it is a very juicy topic. So they jump in quickly.) No, lets go
back to it. No matter what kind of God is dreaming this up, lila
must be a very perverse game ...
Of course, yes.
a game played by a God who cant be normal himself.
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Well, I didnt bring God into this.
I mean God, consciousness or whatever power is playing thisgame.
Saying that it is a power playing this game is a very dualistic
phrase, isnt it? What power? It is you playing this game. You are
the one to blame. But if you want to address suffering directly,
we can do that.
(There is a murmuring consultation in the audience and they
decide to consent to addressing suffering directly.)
We wont get anywhere with it. No one ever has. But doomed
to failure though we are, we can have a try. (Richard speaks
somewhat ironically.) For thousands of years people have tried to
address whether there is any reason for suffering. Do you really
think we are going to be able to add anything to all of that great
philosophising tonight?
Of course, just as with many other questions, it is natural
for the mind to ask questions about suffering. As I say in this
very good book here, which I strongly recommend (Richard
holds up his own book to laughter and applause from the audi-
ence), ultimately all the many questions about suffering come
down to only three. Perhaps I should say that I havent been
able to think of another one. But tonight may be the night when
somebody finally thinks of a fourth question about suffering.
(Someone in the audience starts to get impatient at what they sus-
pect may be prevarication and asks rather insistently) So what arethese three questions?
(Richard faces this impatience with a mischievous grin) Perhaps I
will say what they are, perhaps I wont. Actually they are pretty
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obvious. You all know them yourselves and they also all have
very obvious answers for the mind.
The first question is What can I do about my own suffer-ing? We have already talked about some of the things we can do
to reduce our own suffering. We have talked about meditation,
for example. It is obvious that there are many different things
that we can do to alleviate our own suffering, if that is what we
are interested in doing. Of course we will never eliminate the
ultimate cause of our suffering, because the ultimate cause of
our suffering is me, the sense of I.We can meditate, we can have some psychotherapy, we can
take exercise, we can clean up our diet.
(In a flurry of misunderstanding, Carl asks Richard in English)
Did you mean clean up at home? What are you getting at with
diet?
I said Clean up our diet. Eat healthy food. I said nothing about
vacuuming the house. (Roars of laughter from the audience)
Seeing what we can do if we want to have a more comfort-
able life and reduce our personal suffering isnt rocket science.
It is amazing that in the bookshops so many hundreds of book-
shelves are groaning with tons of self-help books. I am sure that
each of us in this room could write our own self-help book. Go
to see my publisher (Richard indicates Carl). I am sure he will
throw them onto the market for you. (Hilarity in the audience.)
If this was a different kind of meeting, everybody could have
a pen and some paper and I bet that within a few minutes we
could sketch out a self-help book which would rival all the oth-
ers, like The Secretfor example.There is a lot that could go into this kind of book. (Rich-
ard starts to list some of the things that could be included with a
mischievous air.) For example, do something altruistic, be nice
to people. (There is laughter from the audience at this.) Give
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meaning to your life by getting yourself some kind of project.
Spend time in green places by which I dont mean repaint your
bathroom (much laughter). We know all of this intuitively, andas neuroscience makes more and more advances it is proved
scientifically as well. It is not abstract or wishy-washy or pink-
and-fluffy to say If you want to feel better, go and take a walk
in the park. We know that if we take a walk in the park it will
produce different enzymes, it will produce endorphins and our
brain-wave function will change to a healthier pattern.
That is just one of the three questions dealt with: Whatcan I do to alleviate my own suffering? We have got two more
questions still to go.
(Someone in the audience is not clear about whether to take this
seriously or not.) Youre kind of serious about what youre saying,
although youre kind of joking as well, right?
Serious about what?
What you just said about what we could do, like going to the park.
Yes, of course I am serious. Try it. Or get yourself a pet. That
will have similar effects. It has proven effects on brain-wave
function. Why do you think that people who keep cats or dogs
live longer? It is good for you to care for another living being. In
addition cats calm you and dogs make you take exercise.
The second question about suffering is How can I alleviate
the suffering of other people?
I am not even going to give you a list of what you can do
about this one, because it is so obvious. If we are interested inalleviating the suffering of others, there are lots of things that
we can do. Some of them are quite simple and you could start
them this very evening.
The third question about suffering, and by far the most
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intractable, is What is the meaning of suffering? That is the
one that most of the philosophical and religious books get writ-
ten about. If the mind thinks that this is a sensible questionto pose and wants an answer that will satisfy it, then the most
intelligent thing to do is to choose a religion or one of the spir-
itual stories. There is a vast array to pick from, but I suggest
that underneath all their apparent complexity, they are really
very simple.
Basically, all the religions and spiritual stories are able to
give you only two different explanations of suffering. One isthat God moves in mysterious ways and we cannot understand
his motives. Perhaps we shouldnt even ask questions about his
motives. This explanation often involves the idea that suffering
is good for us in some way or other.
The other explanation of suffering involves the story of
karma. In the case of karma, the central idea is that we have
brought suffering on ourself, either as a punishment or as a
necessary learning experience.
Depending on the kind of personality that we have, we
might be attracted to one or other of these explanations for
suffering, to one or other of these ancient stories. But what I
am saying today is that perhaps it may be possible to notice that
they are just stories.
Here we are. This is it. This is known (Richard pats the
table). This is known (he touches the wall). This too is known
(he picks up the flower again). The rest is baseless speculation.
(Interjection from the audience) Dont touch the flower too much!
Its fragile! (Laughter)
And that is also known. (Richard puts the flower back in its vase.)
Stories about karma are exactly that. They are stories, sto-
ries that we tell in this, in presence. They are real. They are
real stories and sometimes they satisfy the mind. But what I
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am talking about here has nothing to do with satisfying the
mind. The mind will never be satisfied with this. The mind will
never be satisfied with nothing. You may have already noticedon many occasions that if you set up an argument between the
mind and nothing, the mind will always win.
I said earlier in this talk that I used to know a lot but now
I know very little and I hope that one day I will know nothing
at all. (Pausing, as if in deep thought) I said that as a kind of joke
but I also meant it.
(Richard stresses the next paragraph quite heavily.) Thesestories, such as I am suffering because of my karma, or even
better My enemy will suffer because of his karma (Richard
stays very serious, in spite of laughter from the audience) or God
is sending me suffering to test me are examples of what we
think we know. But when the person falls away, it takes all
these stories with it and it doesnt replace them with anything.
Instead of these stories, there is emptiness.
(Mischievously) Liberation is hell. Really. It doesnt give you
anything back. It simply takes these stories away. You could say
that this leaves freedom or you could say that it leaves hell. It
leaves complete anarchy, anyway, when all the stories disap-
pear.(Impishly) Liberation is the ultimate anarchy.
(Someone in the audience holds up a magazine.) I have an article
here. Its written by yourself.
I recognize the photo. What do I say? Remind me.
As a description of non-duality, you say that its nothing but the
divine.
I am happy that I said that, because of course there is nothing except
the divine. Everything is equally divine. If all the stories drop away
then how can anything be more divine than anything else?
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How can anything be less divine or more divine than this
glass of water? How can anything be more spiritual or less
spiritual than anything else? More divine, less divine. Morespiritual, less spiritual. That is duality. That is separation. It is
separation into divine and non-divine, into spiritual and non-
spiritual. These concepts can only mean something in the world
of duality.
(Richard speaks as if he wants to provoke the audience.) In
liberation we have complete anarchy. This makes nonsense of
all beliefs, and I do mean all beliefs, no matter whether theyare spiritual or non-spiritual. Now Im meditating so Im being
spiritual. Now Im in a bar so Im not being spiritual. (Richard
is surprisingly engaged with this point and emphatic.) Its complete
nonsense. (Now hes demonstrably amused by the next point.) Its
oneness meditating. Its oneness drinking in a bar.
(Richard becomes very serious again.) This excludes nothing.
As soon as you exclude something, you have duality. You have
oneness over here and something else which you have excluded
from it over there. (Now he speaks resignedly, yet in a relaxed
way.) But the mind cannot make sense of this. There will
always be something that the mind dislikes or finds distasteful.
As far as the mind is concerned, whatever it dislikes should be
excluded from oneness.
So according to what youre saying, all the stories in which we find
ourselves are also part of unity?
Yes, of course.
What I often try to do is to get out of the story or to find a betterstory. Or I try to manifest a better story, as recommended in books
like The SecretorTheCosmic Ordering Service.
(The audience roars with laughter but Richard stays quite serious.)
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This is what the person always tends to do because, as I said
earlier, the person is always dissatisfied with this. But what I
am talking about has nothing to do with trying to change this,because when the person is not there, this is already seen to be
perfect. So why would there be any impulse to phone up the
cosmic ordering service?
What Im puzzled by is this. When those authors say that you have
to order what you want, that you have to manifest what you want,
then what they are saying is also part of unity.
Yes, of course. It is unity expressing itself as a certain amount of
delusion. Delusion is just as divine as everything else.
Were all enlightened, but we dont know it?
I would not say that we are all enlightened. I would say that no
one is enlightened. There is no such thing as an enlightened per-
son, because liberation is only seen when the person is not there.
The seeing of liberation is completely impersonal. Libera-
tion may be seen here (Richard points in his own direction), but
it has nothing to do with me.
We tend to make a connection between the seeing of libera-
tion and the person who is reporting on it. Then we look for
something special in that person and eventually of course we
will be disappointed. If we think liberation has anything to do
with the person reporting on it, we will always feel let down
when we discover that they are quite ordinary, in fact just like
everybody else.
(Someone in the audience says in a strongly insistent way) But
you meditated for thirty years and then there were two events and
everything changed
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