Zodiac- Discussion Between Zodiacs

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11/6/13 11:22 AMThe Tropical and Sidereal Zodiacs: A Discussion.

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Dame Astrology

October, 2002

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The Tropical and Sidereal Zodiacs

A Discussion

IntroductionUnless they are astrologers, not many people know that two “different“ zodiacs are the basis of the twomajor forms of astrology being practiced in the world today. One, called the sidereal zodiac, is used, ingeneral, in eastern countries, like India. Herein it is referred to as “Eastern” astrology. Hindu or Vedicastrology use the sidereal zodiac. As I understand it, older, “ancient” astrologies--Chaldean, Egyptian--were also sidereal.

The other, called the tropical zodiac, is practiced in the Americas, Europe, Australia, and parts of Africa.Herein it is referred to as “Western” astrology.

The most obvious difference between them today is that the tropical zodiac is about 25° ahead of thesidereal one. Since each sign is only 30° long, it means these two astrologies are almost a whole signapart. So, for instance, if you were born in the West and your tropical sun is at 15° Cancer, in the East ,that is, sidereally, it is at 20° Gemini, 25° earlier.

The same thing happens to all the planets in your chart--in the East, they drop back almost a whole sign.Ditto for signs on the cusp of Angles and houses.

Two conditions remain the same in both systems. The planets themselves stay in the same houses, and

they retain the same aspects, that is, their relationship to each other remains the same. Everything has justchanged signs.

Considering that signs play a prominent part in astrology (see footnote 1, at bottom), this situationdeserves more reflection. How did the West end up with a different system than the East? Is theirdifference one only of sign, or is more involved? What implications does the co-existence of two differentsystems have on astrology as a whole? Is astrology so flexible that both systems can be equally valid?

Are you so flexible you can be a Cancer in the West and a Gemini in the East?

In order to better understand how this split came about, let’s start with a short tour of past astrological

habits.

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Contemporary FociPeople usually start out, then continue with the zodiac they culturally inherit. So, only a small number of Western astrologers practice sidereal astrology, using the zodiac of the East. The remainder (about 99%I’ve heard) are tropical astrologers using the system they inherited. I do not know, but suspect the same is

true in the East, but reversed. They are mostly sidereal astrologers. Tradition, habit, lack of comparative

literature, and other life obligations curtail astrologers’ investigation of the “other” zodiac.

Some Western astrologers are not even aware a sidereal zodiac exists. Of those who are, some think of itas a completely different zodiac. That is the case, I believe, with Chinese astrology, which defines some of its constellations differently from ours, giving it, in that sense, a different zodiac. But tropical and siderealuse the same constellations, they just approach them differently. When I buy software which, with asimple conversion factor, allows me to switch back and forth between tropical and sidereal signs, it meansthe software makers (astrologers) recognize the signs, and therefore the constellations, are being definedthe same way (footnote 2).

Some astrologers--those who know about both zodiacs--think the difference between sidereal and tropicalastrology the same as the difference between Fahrenheit and Celsius temperature readings. It is true: atany one time a specific degree in one zodiac always equals a specific, but different, degree in the other. If I am given the exact location of the sun in one, with the (date, time and) conversion factor I can find theexact location of the sun--and all the planets--in the other. In that way, the comparison between Fahrenheitand Celsius holds true. Their difference condenses to a simple matter of conversion. Every one is familiarwith this kind of simple difference: in the United States we still use measurements involving quarts, miles,inches, etc., while much of the rest of the world has switched to the metric system. Changing miles tokilometers, if bothersome, involves simple conversion.

In astrology, however, each 30° segment--that is, sign--has a ruler. A ruler is a planet--usually one of the

standard nine or ten--which “represents” the sign, that is, there is a kind of intimate connection betweenthe sign’s meaning and the way its planetary ruler functions astrologically. So, for instance, we in theWest state that venus "rules" the sign Taurus. Both, in turn, are correlated with the constellation fromwhich the sign took its origin (footnote 3). Established qualities of each ruling planet were fundamentallyinvolved in generating descriptions of the signs they ruled. So, again for instance, astrology has longknown that mercury forefront--that is, on or ruling an Angle--often sponsors writing, communicating, andrecognized intelligence. In traditional astrology, mercury rules Gemini and Virgo. Therefore, the signsGemini and Virgo should, in their description, be essentially mercurial--different because they are

different signs--but mercurial.

Since East and West differ in the sign they assign to the same 25° degrees of each 30°, they differ onrulers defining those 25°. They should, if signs really have rulers, differ enormously on the signdescription generated by those rulers. That has not been the case. Each purports to represent its differing25° segment as, for instance, “Gemini,” ruled by mercury, description generated by mercury. Of course,there have been some radical differences because East and West approach their astrology differently basedon cultural differences. But here we want to ignore that and concentrate only on the fact that their twoadjacent signs share the same 25° which have different rulers. And perhaps I am incorrect about Eastern

practices, but in the West, when a tropical astrologer tries to examine sidereal astrology, he continueswithout compunction to apply tropical descriptions to his sidereal signs. Then he concludes they "don'twork." That is what we are trying to look at here.

Signs have rulers. And, unless astrologers are willing to say signs do not have rulers, when the second,tropical zodiac was created--especially as separation between same signs of each zodiac became greater--





it was through signs and rulers that one of the two forms of astrology suffered the consequences.

Most astrologers approach this dilemma--if they approach it at all--empirically. They examine charts castboth ways. At some point, they decide, “I prefer X zodiac.” Empirical observation is usually a goodapproach. In this case, however, most astrologer’s end up preferring the zodiac they culturally inherited--which they studied first, when they were the least educated about their subject. Preferring what theystarted with does not mean they have to be biased. It just raises the suspicion they might be.

And experience has taught me that Western tropical astrologers tend to dismiss outright as irrelevant

discussions comparing the two zodiacs. Therefore seeing and learning is constantly being finessed in favorof what already is, tradition. Nothing moves. Examination of the fundamentals of astrology such as signs,with multiple examples, is not irrelevant. It is highly instructive.

To further understand these different systems, we need to look at their inception. Before doing that, Iinclude a short history of how I--the writer--got myself embroiled in practicing a form of Easternastrology in a Western bailiwick.

My Journey from Tropical to SiderealMostly self-educated in astrology, my grasp of it is variable. My research over the past twenty-nine years,however, has been both intensive and extensive, and has yielded impressive results. For the last nineteenyears (now twenty-nine) I have used only the sidereal zodiac. Before that, for ten years I did tropicalresearch. My results, and years of musing about it, constitute my qualifications for writing this paper. I amnot an expert on either zodiac. I can, however, make some sensible statements about their practicaldifferences.

I became interested in sidereal astrology after some one loaned me his collection of Cyril Fagan’s sidereal

articles, written over twenty-some years, from the magazine American Astrology. Fagan, now deceased,was an Irish civil servant. He was also an astrologer well-versed in astronomy and Egyptology. Followingreading Fagan, I experimented for months with both zodiacs. After that I switched permanently to thesidereal one.

My switch from tropical to sidereal astrology was an uncomfortable experience, as can be any radicalchange of perspective. It was uncomfortable, but reasonable. How was it reasonable? I did not, as oftenoccurs with astrologers trying to evaluate these two zodiacs, jump--using our example of change inCancer sun to Gemini from above--from using the tropical definition of sun in Cancer to using the tropicaldefinition of sun in Gemini. My experience of switching to sidereal astrology was reasonable because I

reverted to rulers as the key to sign descriptions. In encountering any sign, instead of going by its usual(we could say “cook-book”) description, I asked, “what are the qualities of this sign’s ruler?” That way Idid not fall into a variation of what Fagan called the homonymous error (footnote 4). Still, it was not easy.With time, however, signs resumed some of the reputation--today found so puzzling--they had centuriesago.

Doing it that way, of course sign meaning agreed with ruler meaning because that is, by definition, what Istarted with. Beyond that, however, signs produced consistent results: writers really do have suns, moons,and nodes in Gemini, a mercury-ruled sign associated with the 3rd house and communication; psychicsreally do have suns and moons in Pisces, a neptune-ruled sign associated with the 12th house of concealedor atypical matters. And Sagittarian lights, ruled by jupiter and associated with the 9th house of non-

mundane mind, produce explorers, jurists, clergy, philosophers, and, yes, horsemen. (The connection isdistance from the ordinary and the perspective it can produce.)





One zodiac (the tropical) is linked to the solar year; the other (the sidereal), to the sidereal year.Precession is also the basis for “Ages,” one of which was referred to often in the 60s as “the Age of Aquarius.” Of course, people using the tropical zodiac should not speak in terms of Ages since theirzodiac eliminated the precession that creates them. But they do.

Practical DifferencesThe Sidereal Zodiac has origins which disappear in the mists of antiquity. Also called the Fixed zodiac, italigns, and keeps aligned, each sign with the constellation from which it took its name. In factoring inprecession, signs of sidereal astrology are tied to the sidereal year. Because of that, relative to the samedate (a solar calendar phenomenon) each year sidereal astrology’s signs are gradually slipping backwardfrom Taurus to Aries to Pisces, etc. 0° Aries is an easy point for comparison. Sidereal Aries has movedslowly backward relative to the Spring Equinox. In 1702, sidereal 0 Aries occurred at 6:45:06 p.m. ESTon April 10. In 2002, three hundred years later, sidereal 0 Aries occurred at 5:58:28 p.m.. Eastern DaylightTime on April 14, four calendar days later. So, on April 10, 2002, the sidereal sun was at 26 Pisces.

Tropical astrology, according to Cyril Fagan, originated among the Greeks over a period of severalhundred years, being mostly systematized by the 1st century BC (footnote 6). Today’s tropical astrologywas established around 139 BC when a Greek named Hipparchus “invented the modern version of thetropical zodiac with the equinox fixed in Aries 0 degrees to facilitate the measurements of the positions of the fixed stars in the equatorial system, that is, in Right Ascension and Declination, which are essentiallytropical coordinates. But it was left to Poseidonius, c. 80 BC, and Geminus, c. 70 BC, to systematizeHipparchus’ new fiducial--Aries 0 degrees--into the modern version of the tropical zodiac.” (Origins, p.11 )

The Tropical Zodiac (also called Moving) keeps its 0° Aries linked with the calendric Spring Equinox. In

basing its signs in the solar year, tropical astrology, therefore, disconnects the signs from the

constellations from which they were derived. The consequences of that cleavage did not occur overnight.It occurred slowly, accruing over centuries. Now, about 2000 years later, each tropical sign is almost onewhole sign ahead of its own constellation, but they have stayed linked with certain dates. In 1702, tropical0° Aries occurred at 9:11:40 p.m. EST on March 20. In 2002, tropical 0° Aries occurred on March 20 at3:15:13 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time. The date is the same. (The time varies for a number of reasons.)

Below is a table of dates for when 0° Aries occurred (or will occur) in each zodiac:

2102 2002 1702 1602 1502 1302 980

Sidereal April 16 April 14 April 10 April 9 March 29 March 28 March 25

Tropical March 20 March 20 March 20 March 20 March 11 March 12 March 14

Notice the jump--in both--between 1502 and 1602. During that time our calendar must have undergone anon-standard change. After 1602 tropical 0 Aries occurs only around March 20.

As stated above, the current difference between the two zodiacs is now about 25°. At 12:01 a.m. EasternStandard Time on January 1, 2002 the tropical sun was at 10 Capricorn 35’ 50” while the sidereal sun wasat 15 Sagittarius 50’ 01”. This is the same sun we all see. It is just regarded as in different places by thetwo zodiacs. The sidereal sun--speaking in terms of the order of the signs from Aries to Taurus to...Pisces--is almost a whole sign behind the tropical one.

Disagreement--not great--exists about exactly when the tropical and sidereal zodiacs coincided. Itsponsored two main, slightly different conversion factors for going from tropical to sidereal positions and





vice versa. The one I use is named the Fagan-Bradley, and also the Fagan-Allen, SVP (Sinetic VernalPoint).

Since separation between zodiacs occurred in small increments over a long period of time, consequencesof their divergence have been subtle. If an astrologer lived to age 70, additional separation between thezodiacs during his lifetime was only about 58 minutes and 20 seconds--not even a whole degree. Peoplecannot perceive such a slight difference with their senses.

Why It Is Difficult to Evaluate the Difference Between ZodiacsTradition and habit—inertia—in both systems, however, are not the only reasons impartial examination of tropical versus sidereal astrology has not occurred. Another, major reason exists.

Astrology everywhere appears to produce three main types of astrologers. One type consistently bases hisastrology on principles of planets, houses, and signs. I suspect he is more left- than right-brained, and ismore scientific. A second type is psychic, and might be considered more right- than left-brained. Looking

at the chart he gets, from somewhere, information about the individual. The third type is intuitive, andcloser to right- and left-brained. He works with astrology as mandala, as pattern, but his inferences from itare based on astrological principles.

Of course, it is not that simple. Any individual astrologer may represent two or more types.

Among these three types exists another which could almost be considered a “fourth type.” The main factabout this last type as a type is his chart sets up his success. His methods vary. He may be psychic. Hemay be intuitive. He may be using astrological principles. He may believe he is using astrologicalprinciples. He may also not be using them. He may or may not be able to make intelligible--that is, trulyacceptable—to other astrologers his reasons for the interpretations which, over time, led to his successful

career as an astrologer.

This little fact, that it is our astrology which ultimately sponsors our success, does not just apply toastrologers. It applies to every one. But it is not possible to know that is true until you have an astrologicalmethod which "exposes" that fact. This one does, without exception, and there are many examples inpapers throughout this site. Traditional astrology--birth charts using either Eastern or Western zodiacs--does not. The conception chart has to be added to the birth (see Method and Home Page, links at bottom.)

One more fact about the fourth “type” of astrologer. He exists in both systems, sidereal and tropical.Indeed, his type is represented in all categories of fortune-telling (as well as all areas of success).

This fact, that it is possible to be a successful, even a very successful, practicing astrologer using either

system is the suspicious fact. Any scientist would consider it an odd fact, embarrassing and requiring

investigation. And any astrologer who interacts with his astrology in terms of at least hoping to arrive atmeasuring classes of conditions and events such that they produce statistical significance, should also findit, if not embarrassing, at least troubling.

As the saying goes, however, “one cannot argue with success,” so astrologers, essentially in two camps,go on about their business. They have been doing it for centuries. Because each system generates successfor individual astrologers, most on each side are naturally led to infer, “Mine must be the right zodiac.”Astrologers, however, are also often aware of the success of astrologers using the other system. I do not

know how sidereal astrologers in sidereal countries respond about tropical astrology, but tropicalastrologers of the West, when confronted with the existence of both zodiacs, almost always have the same





response. In this age sponsoring stress on political correctness, they say, “Both zodiacs work.” And forthem that is the end of the matter.

Each tradition has gifted astrologers. Each has brilliant ones. Both have produced all four types of astrologers (probably in fairly equal representation relative to cultural acceptance) with varying degrees of success (also probably in fairly equal percentages), so how can either of their results be an index of theirzodiac’s superiority?

What they mean, of course, is “both zodiacs work” when astrology is countenanced as an art.

All astrologers’ results--individual readings and the success or failure which follows from them--are, infact, tainted by their own charts. Think about it. If astrology "works" (and it does, but you have to findthat out for yourself), then astrologers themselves cannot be an exception to the rule. So, whateverproduces success (or lack of it) in any other field--assuming there are specific significators for same (thereare)--must also produce it for each astrologer. Therefore, individual results from both sides are exquisiteexamples of the observer (the astrologer’s own chart) being an unnoticed part of the experiment, that is,influencing his results. In fact, if the astrologer’s chart contains the proper signature for success, he can beusing any number of differing, contradictory, and even senseless astrological “principles” on which hebases his predictions, and he will still be successful. Our corner of the universe is set up always to honor

the astrology of success.

A simple story will have to serve as my minor example of this phenomenon. Astrologers rarely commenton other astrologer's results in print. Several years ago one successful astrologer stated in print she couldnot see the third marriage of a media celebrity foreseen in the celebrity’s chart by a second, alsosuccessful, astrologer. Using astrological principles, the former simply could not figure out how the latterhad been successful in predicting that third marriage. Well, the third marriage, indeed, occurred. It wasn’t“in” the client’s chart in terms of sound astrological significators. (By sound I mean that they would besuch that almost all astrologers would agree that when they occur they imply a marriage or close

relationship.) The astrologer who was successful in predicting the marriage was successful not because of the soundness of her astrology, but because of the “soundness” of the significators in her chart for hersuccess as an astrologer. Whatever her reasoning, she was bound to come up with the right prediction (aslong as her own chart was not temporarily afflicted at the time). One way to put this is that her astrologyrepresents a "union card" from the universe for just such success.

This has nothing to do with work. Throughout history both successful and unsuccessful individuals havebeen known to work hard all their lives. In general, success also involves many more social obligations("work") than does failure, so it is silly to take a position that any one is successful only because of hisastrology.

Using only the birth chart and tropical astrology, now deceased French astrologer Michel Gauquelin did a

study looking for correlation of people's profession with planets "on"--I believe only--the Midheaven. (Ihave not actually read his published results, but seen references to them in astrology articles). His resultswere unprecedented, but they hardly made a dent in astrology's potential. Neither zodiac has produceduseful research that is statistically significant. At least, very little. How do I know that? Just like people inother careers and avocations, some astrologers are connected to prominent individuals in the sciences. Oractually are prominent scientists. If the astrologers had important, statistically significant results,astrology would be an integral part of the sciences. It is not.

Neither tropical nor sidereal astrology has authored an astrology of classes of conditions and events so

that other astrologers, duplicating their method, could diagnose with it. Neither has produced an astrologywith which any practitioner could, for example, tell parents (or their health representative--we do not want





to sponsor illness) their child is prone to schizophrenia. Prone not because the astrologer predicted it, butbecause it was an objective possibility for that child. Neither has had its results, its findings, itsunderstanding of the nature of the cosmos and the place of man in it correlated with and used by theexploding sciences of mind, behavior, medicine, criminology, and all the other human sciences.

That is a shame, because astrology has a lot to contribute to all of them.

To go any further in our understanding of the difference between tropical and sidereal zodiacs, we need totake a more comprehensive and practical look at signs and their rulers, especially since ruler descriptions

are correlated with sign descriptions.

Corruption of the SignsRulers have an important part to play in astrology, so let’s play with them for a minute. If I remove theactual name of each sign, and in its place put its ruler, we’d have 30° segments which look as follows :

Remove SignNamed Replace with Ruler forSign

Aries Night (footnote 7) Mars

Taurus Night Venus

Gemini Night Mercury

Cancer Moon

Leo Sun

Virgo Day Mercury

Libra Day Venus

Scorpio Day Mars*Sagittarius Jupiter

Capricorn Saturn

Aquarius Uranus

Pisces Neptune

*Some astrologers consider pluto rules Scorpio. Perhaps both mars and pluto do.

Ignoring for the moment the difference between day and night rulers (footnote 8), we would have 60°ruled by mars, 60° ruled by venus, 60° ruled by mercury, and 30° each ruled by sun, moon, jupiter, saturn,

uranus, and neptune. Instead of saying, for instance, “mars is in Taurus,” it could be stated “mars is invenus,” that is, mars is in a venus-ruled sign. “Sun in Gemini” would translate to “sun in mercury.”“Jupiter in Pisces” would come out “jupiter in neptune.” It is a bit awkward, but a better astrology wouldresult from it than one using no, or confused, rulers. But even for this scheme to work, each 30° of signwould have to be where it should be.

Now that the two zodiacs are 25° apart, one of them--assuming again at least one of them is correct--is introuble concerning rulers. The 30° segment tropical astrology views as the 30° of Aries, ruled by mars,coincides with 25° (out of 30°) which sidereal astrology views as Piscean, ruled by neptune. 30° of tropical Taurus, ruled by venus, is viewed as 25° of sidereal Aries, ruled by mars. If signs and rulers have

meaning and real value in astrology--I think they do--one of these zodiacs is assigning the wrong ruler to

most of its signs. Moreover, it is not even getting most of its signs right. Put in a table, the overlap looksas follows:





30° Tropical Ruled By = 25° Sidereal Ruled By

Aries Mars = Pisces Neptune

Taurus Venus = Aries Mars

Gemini Mercury = Taurus Venus

Cancer Moon = Gemini Mercury

Leo Sun = Cancer Moon

Virgo Mercury = Leo Sun

Libra Venus = Virgo Mercury

Scorpio Mars* = Libra Venus

Sagittarius Jupiter = Scorpio Mars

Capricorn Saturn = Sagittarius Jupiter

Aquarius Uranus = Capricorn Saturn

Pisces Neptune = Aquarius Uranus

Currently approximately the last 5 degrees of tropical astrology and the first 5 degrees of siderealastrology share the same sign. So, they share only five degrees associated with the same constellation andruler. Some one born in the past 100 years with sun tropically at 27 Taurus, then, would have his sun at 2Taurus sidereally. The signs are the same, just the degree differs. But what about those other 25°?

Stated first in terms of the 5° they do share, of the 360 degrees of the zodiac, comprised of twelve 30-degree signs, tropical and sidereal astrology assign the same ruler to 5° (in each sign that still coincides)x12 (signs) = 60°. That is 1/6 of the entire 360° wheel! What about those 25° they don’t share? Theydisagree over rulers for the other 5/6 (83%) of the 360 positions of the zodiac, or 300°!

Really, should both zodiacs work? How are you feeling about being both a Cancer and a Gemini?

Tropical Astrology and the Results of Sign CorruptionOver the nearly 2000 years since the inception of the tropical zodiac, tropical astrologers--gradually butdefinitely--began passing sign descriptions from generation to generation as a description. In this way, intime, tropical astrologers stopped thinking of the sign’s ruler as the referent for the sign’s description. Byfailing to retain the ruler as the referent, each tropical sign became more and more corrupted bydescriptions using two different rulers (from the two differing signs their one sign was now covering) .

Why? Well, astrologers are observers. In observing individuals, they noticed, for instance, that their

Taurean man was stubborn (or bull-headed, from Taurus the bull). They thought about bulls they had seenin bull fights, or in pictures, or even just heard about, so they thought, “well, stubborn, that is a bullishquality.” Mules are stubborn; bulls can be dangerous. Anyway, tropical astrologers added stubbornness--atrait that belongs to Aries (sidereal sign, mars-ruled, afflicted mars quality) to their sign description of Taurus (tropical sign, venus-ruled, venus is appeasing, not stubborn). Repeat that process for theirTaurean man who, though usually placid (venus), was to be feared when he finally did get angry (mars).They were using two rulers to describe one sign.

This addition of qualities of rulers not associated with that sign had to happen only several times before

sign descriptions were corrupted. Two thousand years allows a lot of time for such variations.

When the difference between zodiacs was small--only 5 or 10 degrees, tropical astrologers were still 90-95% correct in their sign descriptions. That’s pretty good. Besides, planets, houses, and Angle emphasis





helped counterbalance the confusion caused by sign corruption. Later, however, as the two zodiacs weresplit by fifteen degrees and more, they became less correct. They became fifty per cent (or more) incorrect

about signs and rulers.

It does not make that much difference that corrupted sign descriptions are used in tropical readings. Afterall, their sign descriptions are corrupted in the right direction, that is, based on adding in valid non-rulerdescriptions. What difference, really, does it make if it is moon in Scorpio or moon in Sagittarius which

may sponsor savagery as long as it is one (the non-corrupted for sidereal astrologers) or the other (thecorrupted for tropical astrologers)? Sign names are just words. Even if they are different, if theirimplications are dependable, then whatever name the astrologer uses is of little consequence.

But the consequences of sign corruption do not stop with sign descriptions containing mixed rulers. Thesemixed rulers are sometimes actually antagonistic, so the description containing them is not onlyerroneous, it is sometimes absurd. Below are some more examples:

he (the astrologer) has noticed individuals with Cancer suns and moons are writers! I assumein making that statement he is putting emphasis on the alleged Cancerian love of home.Writers often write at home. Hmmm...so, that means love of home equates with being awriter. In fact, those Cancer suns and moons are sidereally (at least 25° of them) in Gemini.

Gemini is ruled by mercury, which is correlated with the 3rd house, both correlated withspeaking, writing, and communication.

...that Libra is the sign of love and war. Libra is the sign naturally associated with the 7thhouse, the house representing partnerships like marriage. Perhaps the tropical astrologerthinks, “well, fighting certainly occurs in marriage, so that makes sense--Libra rules love andwar.” Libra, however, is ruled by venus. Unafflicted venus demonstrates generosity,affection, magnetism, tenderness, appeasement, and aesthetic (harmony) appreciation.Afflicted, it exhibits traits involving distortion of those qualities, like stinginess, coldness,

hard-heartedness, and jealousy. Fighting occurs in all kinds of relationships; Libra should notbe made to bear the brunt of it. Of course, jealousy can lead to “war.” War, however, is notcarried out by venus, it is carried out by mars. We had some venusian "wars" in the 1960s.They were called love-ins.

But, says the tropical astrologer, look at all those generals with sun in Libra (see footnote 8). Mars in Libra does lead to fighting (mars) in close relationships (Libra). I am not sure allthose generals do have their tropical suns in Libra. My first and only tropical astrologyteacher (Charles Jayne) said that was the case. If generals really have more suns in Libra thanin other signs, might it not be because those general's suns are sidereally in Virgo, a mercury-

ruled sign? What, you might ask, has mercury to do with war? Well, generals usually comeout of academies of higher learning, like West Point. Virgo--and mercury--is involved in thecapacity to analyze, to be a tactician. Even if we look at Virgo as the sign correlated with“service,” Virgo fits generals. They may be lords over their men, but they are at the absolutecommand and service of their president. They are tacticians in war because of their angularmars (or mars-ruled Angle). If it is Angular, they must use it or get used by it. Beinginterested in fighting and war--a general--is one way to use Angular mars.

Scorpios are very fair-minded (venus) and vindictive (mars). Or, he will say, “when madeangry, watch out for Scorpios (who are usually nice guys).” (Notice the similarity betweenTaurus/Aries and Scorpio/Libra in combining passive, receptive venusian qualities in the

same sign with active, assertive mars qualities?) Their tropical Scorpio is mostly a siderealLibra. Libra is venus-ruled--a peacemaker if not an out-and-out appeaser--hence the fairness





attributed to “Scorpio.” Libra (venus), in fact, not only inclines to fairness, that is, balance, ithas trouble with true Scorpios (or Leos, or Pisces, or...) for whom fairness is not a mainconsideration in life. Libras are always equalizing others and not all individuals are obliginglyequalized.

Because, for instance, Leo is a fire sign, a fiery temper is often attributed to its natives, that is,those with sun in that sign. “Don’t mess with her, she’s a Leo.” One woman I know--a

tropical Leo, sidereal Cancer--fought a lot. But, she had moon opposition mars across thehorizon. What she was fighting about was the schooling of her children in a parent-runschool. Individuals with unafflicted sidereal sun in Leo are not so scrappy (afflicted fire sign)as they are dignified. Their dignity is based on their powerful experience of the value of theirown identity.

I would like to go on, but cannot for several reasons. First, I seldom hear tropical speech any more. I donot read tropical astrology, but might if I could even find an astrology magazine these days. These twodeficiencies have impoverished my inventory of selections on which to comment. Second, most of thetropical astrology articles (from journals) I have read in the past decade have been ones highlighting

planets, not signs. Planets have not been corrupted. Third, once past the sign of Scorpio, planets rule onesign only, and furthermore, except for jupiter ruling Sagittarius, are outer planets. It is trickier seeing signcorruption in signs ruled by outer planets than in those ruled by planets of personality. Based onstatements made by tropical astrologers in the past, however, I have a few questions and comments aboutthem:

Citing explorers: Are they explorers because they are (tropically) Capricorns and--like thegoat--need something to pit their physical skills against? Do they require hardship, that is,going against their saturns (Capricorn’s ruler)? Or, are they explorers because they are(sidereally) Sagittarian, ruled by jupiter, and their growth (jupiter, the greater benefic) in liferequires they expand somewhere, why not the arctic? Is exploring a 9th house (jupiter-

affiliated) or 10th house (saturn-affiliated) matter? Exploring often involves hardship anddanger. It always involves leaving behind the mundane, which is a Sagittarian, 9th housematter. And, fair question do explorers have some other quality mixed in with their specialinterest in nether regions. I think so, like forefront mars/uranus, the planetary combinationwhich sponsors courage and daring. Without both would they otherwise become involved inone of the other 9th-house interests, like law, philosophy or religion?

Is the Capricorn really just interested in power, or is his power a by-product of somethingelse? Is it power, or control, that is Capricornian?. Both? Which is correlated with saturn?What do we know about saturn besides “he” gives us some of life’s hardest (and best-learned)

lessons? We know that at saturn, coming into incarnation, life becomes limited, taking onboundaries. It takes on a definite form, locating one uniquely in time and space andparticularity. So, there is some relationship between Capricorn and form. Well, if one has tohave a form, it makes sense that controlling it would be better than it being out of control.The same would apply to organizations. Controlling them--properly, optimally--wouldcertainly lead to better outcomes. And better experiences. Those, in turn, could lead to a senseof power. So, Capricorn likely has some relationship to both control and power. ButCapricorn's negative potential (the control freak) comes from its less than optimal use. Itcomes from emphasis on over-control, usually to compensate for being out-of-control in some

other area of life.

Aquarians and Pisceans are equally non-personal and ungraspable to individuals with suns inearlier signs. So, what difference does it make whether they are ruled by uranus or neptune?





I agree with what has been written by others (also tropical astrologers): it is difficult to justifyuranus’ individualism with Aquarius’ conformity. Aquarius is naturally associated with the11th house of groups. While some groups may subscribe to far-out ideas, usually themembers within them are highly conforming to their group's principle ideas. Uranus isindividualistic, but it is seen as the ruler of Aquarius. Individualism and conformity appearcontradictory. What we get, however, when we combine them is oddball (uranus) groups(11th house), that is, special interest groups, which is what almost all groups are. They allow

the safety of belonging while sponsoring the daring of differences. They also allowindividuals to experience cooperation (for a purpose) and the value of other identities whileretaining most of their own. The 11th house--groups--be it Alcoholics Anonymous, birdwatchers, astrologers, or UFO enthusiasts--enable that. Even with that, however, the oldattribution of both saturn and uranus as rulers of Aquarius has a lot more appeal than justuranus.

Uranus at its highest sponsors intuition, not psychic phenomenon. So, uranus (but maybe notAquarius) should be prominent in the charts of inventors, “free-thinkers,” revolutionaries andreactionaries, and it is. Neptune sponsors psychic phenomena, fantasy, and mind flexibility.

So neptune (and Pisces) should be prominent in the charts of psychics, movie stars, creativeindividuals, weird or off-beat people, and psychotics. And it is.

I covered some of my observations about Pisces and neptune in the paper about psychics.Here is a link to that paper: Paper on Psychics

This process of the mixing up of signs and rulers occurred in tropical astrology for all the signs. There wasnothing wrong with astrologers’ observations. It was their premise--that they were talking about qualitiesof one sign--which was arguably incorrect.

The above is the case for individual astrologers and individual readings. When, however, it comes to

research on groups sharing the same sign or its ruler--writers, for instance--sign corruption makes animpressive difference. It means that even if tropical astrology did research which found, for instance, a lotof people with mercury-influenced Angles and 3rd houses are writers, thinkers, and public speakers, itwould fail to find the other indicator of those groups--prominence of Gemini lights. Its Geminis havebecome Cancers. One or the other, that is, Gemini lights or forefront mercury, and sometimes both, shouldbe prominent in the charts of individuals who think-write-speak for a living or beloved avocation.

The same failed correlation would occur for all the signs and the planets ruling them.

And, unfortunately, because both zodiacs produce the whole gradient from brilliant, very successfulastrologers to those who are merely aspiring to be astrologers, both sides have acquired an ingrained,nearly unconscious belief that the traditional chart--sidereal or tropical, birth only, without harmonics-

-should be able to produce the science of astrology. For them, from generation to generation it has been amatter of finding the "right" parameters to measure the trait or event in question. Somehow they havenever really arrived at questioning the very tool--the standard tropical or sidereal chart--they have beenworking with.

Some IllustrationsIt would be useful to illustrate with some partial charts from this method which reconnects signs and their

rulers. Of course this is not the only useful astrological approach. Astrology is a very big discipline, withincredibly creative practitioners. Right now, however, we are exploring the virtues of this particular

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method and that little thing called "reproducible results." So, the examples...

First, a few words about this type of example.

In the partial charts shown below, birth planets and their harmonics are inside the circle. Conceptionplanets and their harmonics are outside the circle. Color coding also identifies planets and houses. For anexplanation of this whole approach, go to “About This Method,” link just below. Empirically-derived

rules for reading those same charts also has a link below. For those who do not want to read them, there isthis reminder: this method uses only conjunctions, applying and separating squares, and oppositions.

Planets satisfying those relationships with each other are called “in a set together.” Orbs for sets whenthey include lights is 5°. When they do not include lights, 2°. Birth planets and their harmonics rule onlybirth houses. Likewise, conception planets and their harmonics rule only conception houses.

The following links expand on the principles and procedures of this method: About This Method, andEmpirically-derived Rules for Reading Charts. And, of course, the Home Page contains the discussionoutlining the suitability for research of this method. Here is that link: Home Page.

I add, traditional astrology achieves with its aspects what this system achieves with harmonics. Harmonicsare the more thorough of the two since they pick up relationships not recognized as aspects by traditionalastrology. Here is a simple example: astrologer C.E.O. Carter once wrote that he suspected that every 10°

was an aspect. In the 7th chart (using the 9th harmonic) it is. With the 9th harmonic, a difference of 10°between two (non-harmonic) planets generates a square with their harmonics. The next 10° (20°)generates an opposition (two squares added). The next 10° (30°), the other side of the square, 270°. Andthen it starts all over again, always generating squares. In a method like this, in which only 90° (or itsmultiples) relationships of planets to each other are considered, Carter’s statement becomes true--in the

7th chart.

Here is another, smaller example using a less regular aspect from traditional tropical astrology. Using

either tropical or sidereal astrology, I have a semi-quintile (36°) between birth sun and neptune. The 10thharmonic (used to generate the 8th chart), yields their conjunction. The conjunction is recognized as valid

by this method; the semi-quintile is not. So this method does "recognize" a semi-quintile, but only in the8th chart.

I wouldn't wax prolific over sun conjunct neptune inside a chart unless it was on or ruled an Angle. But if some one's astrology started with (non-harmonic) venus and jupiter in a (close) semi-quintile aspect, theirharmonics would be conjunct. If that conjunction also fell on an Angle (MC or Asc), it would make apowerful statement for that individual of good fortune (conjunction of the greater and lesser benefics) formatters related to the 8th chart.

We have come to the examples. The following show partial charts of astrologers, but a few non-astrologers are included. Emphasis is on displaying Gemini and Virgo lights and/or forefront mercury.

Mercury is forefront either when on an Angle, or when lighted and with a planet that rules an Angle. We

are also interested in whether or not these influence 3rd houses, either through actual rulers, or through

mercury in its affiliation with the 3rd house. Part of the signature, for instance, for a poet, is a set in the7th chart which includes light/mercury/venus which must influence an Angle and a 3rd house. Toinfluence an Angle, the planet can either be on an Angle, or in the same set (aspect) with a light andinfluencing an Angle through a ruler. Except for the sun, moon, and nodes, and mercury when it rules anAngle, planets not lighted and not on Angles fall into the background of a chart. "Background" implieslittle expression of that planet until it is brought forefront by progressions. When a progressed Angle hits

that planet, it "lights it up" and brings it into expression. Lights themselves express regardless of whetheror not they are on Angles or even influencing Angles.

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Also below, Pisces and neptune, sponsors of psychic abilities, are haphazardly represented. (Manyastrologers have psychic abilities, we are just not tallying them here.) Benefics, sponsors of success, areusually omitted. The 7th chart is used because, along with the 10th chart, it contains the most socialinformation about the individual. It would have been nice to include everything interesting in each chart,but that would have been far too confusing. I did it too often as is.

There are 35 charts. One more comment: birth and conception Angles are shown in all charts independent

of their importance in terms of aspects. Some times they are important to the point being made, andsometimes not. They are included for orientation and easy spotting of their signs and rulers. House cuspsare listed just below each chart.

Tracy AbbottAstrologer and Writer

Harmonic Chart for the 7th House

Placidus: c11--2Lib, c12--26Lib, c2--20Sag, c3--26Cap b11--29Sag, b12--27Cap, b2--15Ari, b3--13TauComments: Abbott has moon conjunct NN and both harmonic suns in Gemini. (Not shown:B7 mercury,

at 7 Sagittarius 11, aspects B MC and B Asc. C mercury at 25 Capricorn 55 conjunct c7 uranus, closely

squares harmonic saturn and neptune in Aries, and closely squares b mars in Libra, with c mercury rulingC MC and c7 saturn ruling c 3rd.) The sun/venus/jupiter conjunction in Aquarius in c 3rd/b 12th houses isinteresting. It is not that I think lights in Aquarius represent astrology--they might have more to do withgroups (11th), or humanitarian interest (Aquarius), or free-thinking (uranus). Their occurrence in keypositions in astrologer’s charts makes them worthy of reflection, especially if we consider Aquarius co-ruled by saturn and uranus, one of the other conditions seen often in astrologers’ charts. Abbott has both.

Albert Aboucassem

Astrologer, Writer, and LecturerHarmonic Chart for the 7th House





Placidus: c11--26Pis, c12--4Tau, c2--0Can, c3--24Can b11--15Cap, b12--17Aqu, b2--2Tau, b3--27TauComments: c7 mercury in his moon/mercury/pluto conjunction in Virgo (square B MC) rules C Asc in b

3rd house Note there are two lights there because c mercury, as ruler of C Asc, also acts like a light.Lights energize sets. More lights means more energized.

Helio AmorimAstrologer, Teacher, Author






Placidus: c11--19Can, c12--21Leo, c2--2Sco, c3--28Sco b11--21Sco, b12--23Sag, b2--16Aqu, b3--14PisComments:C mercury in the set b7moon/B MC/b7 mars/c7 moon rules C Angles (and therefore also actslike a light). C7 mercury is conjunct NN in Leo and also rules C Angles. His c sun is at 9 Aquarius 42conjunct b SN.

Stephen ArroyoAstrologer, Possibly Best-Selling Astrology Author of all Time






Placidus: c11--8Can, c12--8Leo, c2--1Lib, c3--1Sco b11--2Cap, b12--0Aqu, b2--22Arim b3--18TauComments: B Asc is conjunct mercury. C MC in Gemini is conjunct NN in Gemini. C mercury in Scorpiois conjunct SN and rules C Angles (and also a light), but especially C MC in b 3rd house. C7 mercury

conjunct moon rules C Angles. These all show emphasis on communicating. The two b moons conjunct jupiter in Capricorn and square b venus do not rule an Angle, but b venus rules b 3rd house and co-rules b2nd (18 of 26°). In this set I failed to show b7 NN at 28 Libra 24 and c7 venus at 29 Cancer 35. The latter

rules c 2nd house.

In his 10th chart Arroyo has the same b moon in Capricorn square b venus in Scorpio plus : c10 venus at29 Aries 27, c10 jupiter at 29 Aries 53, and c10 moon at 26 Aries 35. Once again, none rule Angles, butc10 venus rules c 2nd house. He has b10 venus at 12 Taurus 29 square b10 jupiter at 11 Leo 06, withoutlight. B10 jupiter rules B MC, and b10 venus co-rules b 2nd house. All of the venus/jupiter sets are eitherabout success, or they are based on the assumption that in order to be "best-selling," one must have the

astrology that is favorable for making money, which demands a correlation of the benefics venus and jupiter and the 2nd house. They are strongest if they influence an Angle. Arroyo's do not, but he has anumber of them. They become angular through various progressions and returns.

Jane AustenOne of the First Published WomenHarmonic Chart for the 7th House





Placidus: c11--0Gem, c12--5Can, c2--23Leo, c3--18 Vir b11--7Can, b12--8 Leo, b2--26Vir, b3--25LibComments: b7 mercury, a light, in Pisces (ruler of B Angles) is conjunct c mercury (ruler of c 3rd house)in Pisces. C7 mercury in Aquarius conjunct SN square b mercury--same influences. NN in Gemini.

Dr. Douglas M. BakerAstrologer and Prolific Writer of Books Based on Alice Bailey


Placidus: c11--14Vir, c12--7Lib, c2--25Sco, c3--3Cap b11--20Can, b12--19Leo, b2--7Lib, b3--7ScoComments: b7 mercury, a light, in that out-of-sign conjunction of mercury/mercury/mars/neptune/NN





rules B Angles. B moon conjunction SN and also part of that set, co-rules b 10th house (20 of 36°). Cmercury is in c 3rd house in Aquarius.

Hans BaumgartnerAstrologer, Editor, Author, Publisher


Placidus: c11--14Ari, c12--27Tau, c2--18Can, c3--8Leo b11--7Vir, b12--1Lib, b2--18Sco, b3--25SagComments: The set including sun/mercury/jupiter in Taurus: b mercury (a light) rules B MC and b jupiterrules b 3rd house. The set in Leo in b10th/c3rd includes sun/mercury/mercury/mars/saturn/jupiter, whereb7 saturn co-rules b 3rd house (30 of 40°) and c sun rules c 3rd house. Note b7 moon in Virgo also in3rd/10th.

Faith BaldwinFirst Novel Age 6; Novels, Serials, Short Stories, Radio & Movie Scripts






Placidus: c11--28Pis, c12--8Tau, c2--4Can, c3--26Can b11--19Leo, b12--17Vir, b2--8Sco, b3--11SagComments: her b moon in Gemini is conjunct SN opposite mercury conjunct NN, with b moon ruling BMC. In her Scorpio set, c mercury (a light) rules C Asc, c neptune co-rules c 10th (28 of 36°), and b7saturn co-rules b 3rd (16 of 35°). She has b7 NN in Gemini, and a 3rd/10th house overlap.

Elbert BenjamineAuthor “Brotherhood of Light” Books






Placidus: c11--14Can, c12--14Leo, c2--6Lib, c3--6Sco b11--26Vir, b12--20Lib, b2--11Sag, b3--19CapComments: B7 mercury is in Gemini conjunct MC/mars/pluto. C mercury (in b 3rd in Aquarius and also alight) rules C Angles. C7 mercury (a light) in Pisces conjunct jupiter also rules C Angles. B sun in hisScorpio conjunction with mercury and mars rules B MC in c 12th house. He has an 8th/10th houseoverlap.

Arnold BennettNovelist, Journalist, ScreenwriterHarmonic Chart for the 7th House





Placidus: c11--3Cap, c12--1Aqu, c2--7Tau, c3--28Tau b11--29Tau, b12--5Can, b2--21Leo, b3--16VirComments: B mercury is part of the set in Leo (conjunct B Asc) in c 6th house and includes the Scorpio

planets and the ones in Taurus--two mercuries and two moons. B7 mercury is square b7 nodes. C mercuryco-rules c 3rd house (15 of 17°). Leo part--drama.

Tom Boardman, Jr.Editor, Publisher, Anthologist






Placidus: c11--13Lib, c12--5Sco, c2--30Sag, c3--10Aqu b11--16Sco, b12--6Sag, b2--14Aqu, b3--24PisComments: C moon is in Gemini. C MC opposes c7 mercury conjunct c uranus, ruler of c 3rd house. B7mercury in Pisces is in a set with b moon, c moon, c7 sun and b7 jupiter, with jupiter ruling B Asc.

Nick CampionAstrologer, Author, Elected President of British Astrological Association, 1994


Placidus: c11--28Ari, c12--9Gem, c2--28Can, c3--19Leo b11--16Vir, b12--9Lib, b2--27Sco, b3--6CapComments: B MC is opposed by a conjunction involving sun, c7 mercury, and jupiter in Aquarius. (Not





shown: b mercury in Pisces is in a set with moon and mars. C mercury, conjunct mars and jupiter in Aries,co-rules c 3rd house (19 of 30°). C7 mercury co-rules c 3rd house (19 of 30°). B and c7 moons are both inVirgo.

Johnny Carson

Comedian, 30-Year Host of the “Tonight Show”Harmonic Chart for the 7th House

Placidus: c11--27Leo, c12--24Vir, c2--15Sco, c3--18Sag b11--22Leo, b12--20Vir, b2--11Sco, b3--14SagComments: C moon, ruler of C MC, is in Gemini conjunct SN/mercury in Gemini. C7 moon, also ruler of C MC, is in Libra conjunct C Asc/mercury/saturn/uranus. B7 saturn in that co-rules b 3rd house (19 of

35°). C venus, ruler of C Asc, is in a set with two mercuries. B moon, ruler of B MC is conjunct jupiter.B7 moon, also ruler of B MC, is in a set with venus/node/neptune. His harmonic suns are in Pisces--likelysponsors of some of his marvelous goofiness.

A partial chart showing the Gemini influence in the 7th chart of comedian Robin Williams is in the paper

on compulsive talkers.

C.E.O. CarterAstrologer, Writer






Placidus: c11--9Sco, c12--27Sco, c2--4Aqu, c3--20Pis b11--4Leo, b12--2Vir, b2--20Lib, b3--22ScoComments: B7 mercury (a light) which is conjunct saturn and uranus, is ruler of B Angles. Also in that setare b7 moon in Sagittarius, and the conjunction of jupiter and saturn in Gemini, with jupiter ruling C Ascin b 3rd house.

Paul ClancyPublisher, Chief Editor, “American Astrology”






Placidus: c11--17Can, c12--17Leo, c2--8Lib, c3--9Sco b11--0Gem, b12--3Can, b2--24Leo, b3--21VirComments:Clancy has 3 suns and one moon in Gemini conjunct his C MC. His c sun is in Virgo. B7mercury is conjunct neptune in Capricorn, with mercury ruling b 3rd house. B Asc includes a setcomprised of nodes/c7 mercury/venus/mars/saturn/uranus, and maybe jupiter. C7 mercury (a light) rules C

Angles. B venus co-rules b 3rd house (24 of 33°).

Geoffrey DeanAstrologer, Sci-Fi Writer, Analytic Chemist






Placidus: c11--18Tau, c12--25Gem, c2--12Leo, c3--6Vir b11--27Pis, b12--13Tau, b2--8Can, b3--26CanComments: Dean wrote Recent Advances in Natal Astrology: A Critical Review 1900-1976., but Iincluded his chart because of his career as an analytic chemist. His c mars, ruler of C MC, is in Virgo in c

3rd house. C7 mars, also ruler of C MC, is in Capricorn. B Asc is in a set also involving NN inGemini/mercury in Pisces/uranus. I thought the set in Aries conjunct C MC representative of, among otherthings, the data comment he is a “personable and charming speaker” (Angular moon/mercury/venus).

Guy De MaupassantAuthor


Placidus: c11--17Tau, c12--24Gem, c2--12Leo, c3--6Vir b11--29Gem, b12--30Can, b2--18Vir, b3--17Lib





Comments: B7 moon is in Gemini conjunct neptune. B moon is in Gemini conjunct b7 mercury and cmars. All of these are in b 10th house, with c mars ruling C MC. C MC is opposed by sun conjunctmercury, mercury ruling c 3rd house. C Asc is conjunct mercury and venus and square neptune. C7mercury is conjunct uranus, and rules c 3rd house.

Doris Chase DoaneAstrologer, School Founder & Teacher, Much-Published Author


Placidus: c11--18Vir, c12--13Lib, c2--4Sag, c3--10Cap font color=blue>b11--16Sco, b12--6Sag, b2--15Aqu, b3--25PisComments: C sun is in Gemini conjunct venus and square node/mercury/jupiter (comprising a golden

benefic), with c sun ruling C MC and c7 jupiter ruling c 2nd house. C mercury in Gemini is in a set with bsun/c7 saturn in Gemini, with saturn ruling c 3rd house. Not shown: C Asc is in a set includingsun/mercury/mars/saturn, with saturn ruling c 3rd house. Mercury aspected by mars and saturn--as shows

up in the charts of many editors--appears to impel the individual to mental and verbal work.

Doane’s B MC is conjunct moon and neptune--she is perceived a “psychic,” (and probably is) a conditionconfirmed by her birth sun in Pisces on the cusp of b 3rd house. Jupiter rules B Asc in the conjunction of moon and jupiter in Aquarius.

Her 10th chart contains the following: b10 jupiter at 3 Aquarius 37, c10 venus at 0 Leo 55, and b10

mercury at 5 Leo 05. These are aspecting C Asc at 2 Scorpio 32.





Charles EmersonFounding Father NCGR; Editor, Astrologer


Placidus: c11--23Lib, c12--14Sco, c2--12Cap, c3--24Aqu b11--28Gem, b12--29Can, b2--21Vir, b3--21Lib

Comments: C Asc is in a set with b7 mercury/uranus/neptune (and progressed node). C MC is in a setwith sun/c mercury/venus/venus/mars/uranus, in which both venuses rule b 3rd, c7 uranus rules c 3rd, andc mercury rules C MC and c 7th. He has a SN/b mercury/mars conjunction in Cancer square jupiter/saturn.In his set comprised of SN/moon/uranus conjunct in Aquarius, c uranus rules c 3rd.

Cyril FaganAstrologer, Author, Egyptologist

Even though Fagan’s chart was classified “AA,” (from Arthur Blackwell), other times, including one from

him, were so different I reluctantly omitted his chart.

Ken GillmanAstrologer, Author, Statistician, Editor of Considerations






Placidus: c11--2Sco, c12--19Sco, c2--21Cap, c3--8Pis b11--15Ari, b12--29Tau, b2--19Can, b3--9LeoComments: He has c7 moon in Gemini conjunct SN in a set with B MC/c mercury/saturn/pluto. Itspresence in c 7th house likely means as much about his contact with others--that is, it describes them--as itdoes about himself. The set with both b moons/b mercury/mars/saturn has b moons ruling B Asc, andmercury’s presence gives it a 3rd house quality. C7 neptune is in a set with sun/Nodes/jupiter, in which c7neptune rules c 3rd and b sun rules b 3. He has a 3rd/10th house overlap.

Robert HandAstrologer, Author






Placidus: c11--2Sag, c12--24Sag, c2--10Pis, c3--16Ari b11--3Ari, b12--13Tau, b2--8Can, b3--30CanComments: The set with C Asc includes moon/c mercury/mars/saturn, and both harmonic suns. C marsrules c 3rd, c saturn rules C Asc, and b sun co-rules b 3rd (28 of 29°). B mercury is in the set with venusand uranus, with b mercury (a light) ruling B Asc in Gemini. His other ruler of B Asc, b7 mercury at 18Taurus 02 is in a set with c7 moon at 15 Taurus 34 and c jupiter at 17 Taurus 56. B saturn, at 14 Taurus34, is also part of this set, but it is progressing away from his moon. These oppose his b sun (4th ruler) at

19 Scorpio 16 which is square c SN at 19 Aquarius 32. The Taurus planets are in c 4th house.

Axel HarveyAstrologer, Past Co-editor of Considereations






Placidus: c11--13Vir, c12--8Lib, c2--27Sco, c3--4Cap b11--8Ari, b12--20Tau, b2--13Can, b3--4LeoComments: B Asc is in Gemini conjunct b7 moon in Gemini. His b mercury (a light), ruler of B Asc, inCapricorn is in a set with c moon and b uranus. His set with c7 mercury in Pisces includes mars/saturn/SNand progressed neptune, with c saturn ruling c 3rd house. He has an interesting conjunction of B MC withvenus conjunct jupiter conjunct uranus in Aquarius--all opposite neptune.

Charles JayneAstrologer, Innovator, Author






Placidus: c11--17Can, c12--17Leo, c2--8Lib, c3--9Sco b11--0Gem, b12--3Can, b2--24Leo, b3--21Vir

Comments: c mercury is in a set with uranus, mars, and neptune, with uranus co-ruling b 3rd (30 of 36°)and mars ruling B Asc. He has a 3rd/10th house overlap.

Stephen KingAuthor






Placidus: c11--12Tau, c12--18Gem, c2--8Leo, c3--3Vir b11--26Ari, b12--4Gem, b2--25Can, b3--18LeoComments: C moon in Gemini rules C Asc. His harmonic suns are in Gemini. His c sun is in Virgo. Hisb7 mercury, co-ruler of b 3rd (19 of 31°) is conjunct SN. C mercury, ruler of c 3rd, is in conjunction withSN/mars in Scorpio, with mars co-ruling b 10th (26of 45°). His c7 mercury, ruler of c 3rd, is in a set with

sun and moon in Scorpio, with moon ruling B Asc.

Two conditions in his 3rd chart on June 19,1999 when he was struck by a car while walking along theside of the road near his home:(1) pb sun 24 Libra 43, b saturn 24 Cancer 07, pb1 mars 24 Capricorn, andpb1 saturn 24 Capricorn 36. His sun rules his b 3rd house (near environment). (2) pc1 mars (ruler of CMC) at 2 Gemini 20, pc1 saturn 3 Sagittarius 00, to b sun (ruler of b 3rd house) at 3 Virgo 23. Transitingsaturn was at 18 Aries 25 and NN at 19 Cancer 16, aspecting his C Asc at 17 Cancer 31.

Alan LeoAstrologer, Author






Placidus: c11--4Pis, c12--21Ari, c2--24Gem, c3--11Can b11--2Gem, b12--7Can, b2--24Leo, b3--19VirComments:B MC is in a set including node/node/b mercury/c mercury/venus in which b mercury rules b3rd and c mercury ( a light) rules C Asc in Gemini. C7 moon is in a set with mercury/mars in which c7moon rules c 3rd, b7 mars rules B MC, and b7 mercury rules b 3rd. He has a conjunction of moon/jupiter/neptune in Scorpio, with moon ruling c 3rd house.

Al MorrisonAstrologer, Author, Researcher






Placidus: c11--24Sag, c12--21Cap, c2--9Ari, c3--8Tau b11--17Cap, b12--19Aqu, b2--6Tau, b3--0GemComments: B sun is conjunct saturn in Gemini and opposite B MC. C MC is opposite b mercury inGemini. His b7 mercury in Aquarius rules b 3rd. In his set with c mercury is node/mars/jupiter/neptune inwhich jupiter rules B MC and mars rules B Asc. Moon and saturn in Virgo can be added to the latter, withmoon conjunct venus in Virgo, ruler of c 3rd house. C Asc is conjunct jupiter in Aquarius.

Ira Progoff Jungian Psychologist Specializing in Journal System

Harmonic Chart for His 7th House





Placidus: c11--22Can, c12--22Leo, c2--14Lib, c3--15 Sco b11--7Can, b12--17Leo, b2--30Vir, b3--30LibComments: Progoff has c7 moon in Gemini conjunct B MC/venus and square B Asc. B mercury (a light)is in Gemini conjunct b moon--mercury rules B Angles. B7 mercury in Libra conjunct sun squaremars/nodes: mercury rules B Angles and mars co-rules b 3rd house (30 of 34°). His two c mercuries (bothlights) in Libra are conjunct mars, and rule C Angles, while mars rules c 3rd. Jungian (?=neptunian?):both harmonic suns are in Pisces (conjunct SN) and b sun is conjunct neptune.

RamanujanMathematical Genius






Placidus: c11--28Pis, c12--1Tau, c2--27Gem, c3--25Can b11--11Ari, b12--13Tau, b2--8Can, b3--7LeoComments: LMR came up with this time from the given of “just after sunset.” What I mainly wanted toshow in his chart is his set with both b mercuries which includes jupiter/jupiter/neptune/saturn/saturn inwhich the mercuries (which are acting like lights) rule B Asc in Gemini and his c mercury (also a light),ruler of B Asc, is conjunct SN in Pisces and square B Asc. In an earlier paper I wrote mathematical abilityappears to be correlated (among other things so far) with mercury in Capricorn--to which, perhaps,mercury/saturn can be added. His mercury in Pisces probably helped him mathematically but notpractically since it is intuitive. Einstein had the conjunction of mercury to saturn in Pisces, a main reasonhe appeared so dumb early in life. It takes a while to grow into the dimensions (or dimensionlessness)

represented by mercury in Pisces when the individual is not, in fact, mentally deficient.

Vivian RobsonAstrologer, Mathematician, CuratorHarmonic Chart for the 7th House





Placidus: c11--2Aqu, c12--12Pis, c2--3Gem, c3--20Gem b11--20Gem, b12--22Can, b2--9Vir, b3--7LibComments:B MC and C Asc (conjunct) are in a set with c mercury/neptune/pluto/moon/saturn/node. In itc mercury rules c 3rd and c7 saturn rules C MC. B Asc is in a set with sun/b mercury/c7 mercury in which

c7 mercury rules c 3rd and b mercury co-rules b 10th (20 of 39°). C MC is in a set with moon/b7 mercuryin which mercury co-rules b 10th house (20 of 39°).

Lois RoddenAstrologer, Author, International Data Collector and Disburser






Placidus: c11--16Leo, c12--13Vir, c2--0Sco, c3--4Sag b11--3Sag, b12--22Sag, b2--18Pis, b3--23AriComments: Both b moons are in Gemini, one conjunct pluto. C MC is conjunct c mercury. C7 NN inAquarius conjunct uranus is in a set with b saturn and b mercury, with b saturn ruling B Asc. C Asc is in a

set with sun/b7 mercury/jupiter. C moon in Aquarius rules C MC. Sidereal placements throw her b suninto Taurus. Tropically it was in Gemini and likely considered sponsor of her involvement in datacollecting, writing, and a lot of communication with others.

Dane RudhyarAstrologer, Author






Placidus: c11--16Pis, c12--2Tau, c2--0Can, c3--19Can b11--14Lib, b12--4Sco, b2--28Sag, b3--12Aqu

Comments: C MC in Aquarius is conjunct moon/moon/b mercury and square b7 mercury and oppositionc7 mercury, with c7 mercury (a light) ruling C Asc and c moon ruling c 3rd house. C7 moon is in an out-of-sign conjunction with saturn and uranus in b 10th, with c moon ruler c 3rd and b7 uranus ruling b 3rd.

Chris Costner SizemoreRecovered Multiple Personality

Harmonic Chart for the 3rd House





Placidus: c11--25Pis, c12--3Tau, c2--30Gem, c3--23Can b11--2Gem, b12--4Can, b2--27Leo, b3--26VirComments: her (3rd chart part of her) schizophrenia is shown by

(a) B Asc conjunct b7 neptune in b 3rd house plus

(b) C Asc sun is in a set with mercury/mars/node with mercury ruling C Asc, giving her mars influence toan Angle and a 3rd house (to mercury). Her b sun in Pisces rules her B Asc in c 3rd house.

Although hers is the only multiple personality chart I have, I believe her “multiple” capacity comes fromher Gemini influences. C Asc in Gemini is conjunct NN and sun, which co-rules c 3rd house (20 of 27°).It favors (NN) mental (mercury) invention. C7 moon in Gemini rules c 3rd house. Does the NN conjunctpluto in Gemini represent a desire (NN) this incarnation to explore extremes (pluto) of Gemini?

The help she received from a dedicated and capable therapist is represented by her c jupiter on the cusp of b 7th house, and is part of indications she will recover (venus and jupiter on Angles). B3 sun (ruler of BAsc in c 3rd house) conjunct saturn in Libra square saturn/pluto in Capricorn impeded her ability toobserve and reason because it gave her some autistic tendencies.

Edwin SteinbrecherAstrologer, Metaphysician, Editor & Contributor, Aquarian Changes






Placidus: c11--8Leo, c12--7Vir, c2--28Lib, c3--)Sag b11--4Lib, b12--26Lib, b2--19Sag, b3--28CapComments: B moon and c sun are in Gemini. B7 mercury (a light), also in Gemini, rules B MC. Both cmoons are in Aquarius in b 3rd house and ruling C MC. Looking at this, I became more interested in hisPisces/3rd/9th influences (metaphysician): b7 moon in Pisces rules b 9th. B sun in Pisces co-rules b 9th(30of 38°). Its harmonic, b7 sun, co-rules b 9th, and is in a set with jupiter and neptune. B uranus, inPisces and co-ruling b 3rd house is conjunct b sun and c7 venus, ruler of C Asc.

Batya StarkAstrologer, Humorist, Great After-Dinner Speaker






Placidus: c11--1Gem, c12--4Can, c2--25Leo, c3--23Vir b11--17Pis, b12--28Ari, b2--26Gem, b3--17CanComments: B7 moon in Gemini rules b 3rd (and is in c 11th). B7 mercury in Gemini rules B Asc (still inc 11th). C7 mercury in Gemini rules c 3rd house (still in the 11th house). For 8th sign influence, c

mercury, ruler of c 3rd, and b moon, ruler of b 3rd house, are conjunct in Scorpio. Harmonic suns, inCapricorn, are square uranus/node/neptune and rule C Asc in b 3rd house. Her C MC is conjunct uranusand neptune.

Nikola TeslaGenius, Innovator






Placidus: c11--21 Scr, c12--10Sag, c2--2Aqu, c3--3Ari b11--17Cap, b12--19Aqu, b2--12Tau, b3--4GemComments: His harmonic chart for his 3rd house is interesting, too.

ConclusionIn this paper I have sketched my understanding of the difference between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs,

their inception, and, especially, their implications.

In discussing signs and their rulers, I have tried to remind others they have, and should have, a vital,unbroken connection.

In the 35 sample partial charts, I showed that the signs Gemini and Virgo, and their ruler, mercury, arepredominant and forefront in the charts of individuals such as writers, editors, publishers, public speakers,some types of comedians, and others involved in communication and analysis--all the purview of mercury. Within those examples it appears that the mercury that rules Virgo has more of amercury/mars/saturn quality than the one that rules Gemini, which appears more like moon/mercury.

Often, the strong presence of lights in Aquarius, and Aquarian Angles was also shown. I remember oncecounting them, however, in the 120 charts of astrologers I used to have. They did not occur as often asthey seemed to. Nonetheless, some of these examples indicate Aquarian emphasis for astrologers (lights,mercury, Angles, benefics) seems a potential part of their signature. Moreover, Aquarius of old, that is,ruled by both saturn and uranus, appears correlated with indications that if not Aquarius, then light (ormercury)/saturn/uranus influencing 3rds and Angles is part of the astrologer’s signature. Of course, bothcan occur. And also of course, in cultures without astrologers, they have to be representing some otherinterest or talent.

Aquarius also has some group implications, but Mankind consists of all kinds of groups for whichAquarius is likely not the signature. Aquarius as the complementary opposite of Leo probably holds more

promise for its group meaning, such as the generalization, "Leo is essentially egocentric, while Aquariusis essentialy other-centric."





The development of signatures for conditions is necessarily an ongoing process with an unknownendpoint. An earlier study showed a very high incidence (footnote 9) of mercury/neptune influencingAngles and 3rd houses in the 1st chart of astrologers, which I took tentatively as “right-brainedness,” or atleast that capacity if not its predominance. It may be that its presence in 1st or 7th chart is equally valid aspart of the astrologer’s signature.

One more comment: Individuals not used to so many planets could easily believe almost anything is

possible with these charts. Even now I sometimes experience that. Even now, after so many years, I doubtthis method. (It would not be all bad to discover I had been deluded for the past 19 years.) I can make itdisappear by pulling out a file especially for the same event, like auto or aviation accidents. Events areoften more planet- and ruler- than sign-oriented. It has taken longer to have confidence in signs (includingharmonic ones). Conditions--such as being a professional astrologer--are taking the longest of all. Thesignature for both events and conditions of necessity starts out partial, so they both start out incomplete.Conditions, however, usually include signs as well as planets and ruler influence, and may include morecharts than do events. Their signature could be incomplete for years and one would not know it. Only bystumbling upon some one supposed to share a condition, but who lacks it signature, can a signature revealits lack of completion.

DiscussionWestern astrology has accomplished a great deal in the past fifty years. Data collecting has beentransformed into an international cooperative effort. Important standards concerning its accuracy havebeen established. I understand a project to translate no longer extant astrology texts has transpired.Research with more traditional astrology, which I would know nothing about, has likely been ongoing.

For me, however, it is the data which is most important. With it, research--including my own--has becomepossible that was impossible fifty years ago.

This paper, however, is about the co-existence of two zodiacs--roughly Eastern and Western--and thecommon assertion they “both work.” I have tried to illustrate why that has appeared to be the case but, inmy opinion, is not. I re-iterate:

Both zodiacs do not work, but their divergence was so gradual that corruption of signs in tropicalastrology was difficult to see.

As long as astrology remains an art involved in individual counseling and prediction, it makes almost nodifference--unless he is a stickler for “correct” signs--whether the astrologer is using sidereal or tropical

astrology. One would think it would make more of a difference, but the sympathetic presence, intuition,and good counsel of the astrologer is probably more important than mere signs.

Individual astrologers in both camps have achieved great success. Their success, however, has less to dowith their choice of zodiac, or, for that matter their method, than it does their own charts.

If astrology ever expands from an art to include science--and that “if “includes the questions, should it?--it must find a method which exposes the success bias in charts of individual astrologers. As long as itequates individual success with truth it is in trouble scientifically.

Even as a science--that is, a system comprised of methods that produce consistent,reproducible results and better alignment of data--recognition of individual astrologers and

the science as a whole will still not be free from the success (and failure) factor in their owncharts. As a science, however, it will be able to correct itself better than it does as an art.

This is true in all fields, including all the other sciences. After all, Einstein was not only rightabout something, he had a chart with non-harmonic venus and (slow, secondary progressed)





jupiter on Angles facilitating his general life success. There is nothing better than venus and jupiter on Angles for doing that. His work, however, was tested by others for more than hispersonal success, and was thereafter admitted to the body of science.

If astrology ever makes the transition from art to an art-and-science, it must encourage research resultsfrom systems other than traditional ones. In theory that is the case, but in actuality it is not.

If astrology ever makes that transition, it must espouse the zodiac and methods which, among other

things, re-unite signs and their rulers so that one or the other, or both, appear prominent in charts theyclearly should be prominent in.

In the above context, it makes no sense to announce (as has happened--probably more than once),following some contest, that tropical astrology has proven itself superior to sidereal astrology (or viceversa). Neither astrology in their traditional form adequately measures effectiveness of either system.

The difference between the sidereal and solar year was inconvenient and messy. Therefore, in essence,those early tropical astrologers "eliminated" the sidereal year with respect to their astrology. In doing so,apparently, certain calculations were made easier.

Nature, though usually immensely regular and often beautiful in form, is not one hundred per cent regular.

Some cycles do not--though it seems they should--fit into other cycles. Another example different fromthe two “years” is: twelve lunar cycles do not fit neatly into either year.

Ages, and perhaps evolution itself, depend on not -circles, on some things not fitting exactly into someother things, or on repeating irregularities, such as 1 divided by 7. Such irregularities, then, would not be"mistakes"," or meaningless inconveniences, but--in some dimension--foresights.

Footnotes(1) Some astrologers do primarily planetary astrology. That is, they have de-emphasized signs and houses.Some have even eliminated houses, focusing on planets on Angles. But they are not the majority. Theirexistence, however, may be one indication of how unreliable some tropical astrologers have found signs.

(2) I have read that more than one sidereal zodiac exists in places like India. Since the constellations donot consist of 30° sections, nothing about zodiacs is entirely surprising, unless it is that ancient people sawfit to define constellations in the first place. Here I am only concerned with what I suppose to be the most-used sidereal zodiac.

(3) If you don’t like “rulers,” think of them as earthly ambassadors for the constellations. My point is thatsigns (not constellations) have rulers, and signs and rulers yield important astrological information.

(4) Confusing the sign with the constellation with which it shares the same glyph was the first part of thaterror. The second was reading tropical book descriptions for the previous sign (say, Cancer instead of

Leo) when switching from tropical to sidereal astrology. It cannot be meaningfully done.





(5) Since the separation of the two zodiacs occurs at about 50 seconds per year, a little mathematics showswhen Fagan-Bradley believed the two zodiacs coincided. The total number of seconds difference betweenthe two zodiacs on January 1, 2002 was 89,149. Using a 12-month year and a 30-day month, 89,149divided by 50” per year = 1782 years, 11 months, and 23 days. From January 1, 2002, that puts theircoincidence at January 9, 219 AD, which gets us fairly close to 221 AD, the date Fagan suggested.

(6) In writing about the zodiacs, I write as if only two--sprung full-blown from the head of some stellar

Zeus--existed. It is rarely that simple. The constellations are projections (already an artifact of sorts) basedon a certain reality. The zodiacs are out-and-out inventions based on those projections. For one thing,“constellations” are not 30° wide, but signs named after them are. Inventions may be musical, mechanical,psychological, religious, mathematical, or artistic. At the time of their inception, others see them asridiculous. In time, however, others add to them. Inventions that succeed become commonplace. Afterthey become commonplace, they acquire a history which makes their genesis appear monolithic. Theiractual history often shows that is not the case. Their truth was not obvious, and their usefulness did notbecome apparent overnight. If they do become commonplace, their truth remains just about asunquestioned by the majority as it was when they were considered ridiculous. Their actual history is

replete with ascents and plunges, false starts, being favored and ignored.

(7) This attribution of day and night to the planets mercury, venus, and mars, is Fagan’s, who starts his“day” with Libra, not Aries. I start mine with Aries, and prefer the reverse assignment.

(8) Rommel had sun in sidereal Libra. He was known for his fairness toward his men, never asking themto do anything he was not doing. He was hard on them, but no more than on himself. His C Ascendantconjunct mars in Virgo and square mercury (Sag) was excellent for martial (mars) tactical (mercury andVirgo) skills. Mars ruled his MC and 3rd house. So, he had an abiding interest (3rd house) in analyzed

(Virgo) action (mars). His c sun in Capricorn furthered his role as commander as well as his structuralanalysis. Rommel--like boxers, athletes and dancers--had a lot of mars in aspect to saturn within his chart,one indication such individuals live physically arduous lives.

Rommel’s tropical sun in Scorpio conjunct his B MC and south node makes sense for some one known asfearless. Leaving it at that, however, is the same as accepting the statement, “Rommel committed suicide.”He took the cyanide capsule, but only because he had to. In considering Rommel it is also necessary toaccount for his fame and tactical abilities. His tropical chart makes his Scorpio sun on the MC do all of it.

(9) I used charts of 100 astrologers and harmonic and non-harmonic planets. Results, stated in terms of percent were: using an orb of no more than 4°, a total of 79% of the astrologers had a mercury/neptune set;using an orb of 2° or less, 70%. Of the latter, 48% had influence through rulership to interior 3rd houses.

BibliographyFagan, Cyril, Astrological Origins. St. Paul, MN: Llewellyn Publications, 1971.

Data Acknowledgments

Tracy Abbott (A)

Birth: 12/09/1957, 12:41 p.m. PST, Los Angeles, CA. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Rodden quotes her by phone, 11/91





Conception: 2/26/1957, 1:13:36 a.m. PST, Los Angeles, CA

Albert Aboucassem (A) Birth: 7/30/1930, 10:30 p.m. EET, Alexandria, Egypt. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. IBAS 3/58; same in Church of Light file.Conception: 10/20/1929, 9:12:54p.m. EET, Alexandria, Egypt.

Helio Amorim (A) Birth: 12/06/1923, 9:50 a.m. BZT, Itapeva, Brazil. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Marcello Borges quotes him.Conception: 2/22/1923, 9:18:04 p.m. BZT, Itapeva, Brazil.

Stephen Arroyo (AA) Birth: 10/06/1946, 5:35 p.m. CST, Kansas City, MO. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Birth certificate in hand, Steinbrecher.

Conception: 12/24/1945, 11:57:06 p.m. CST, Kansas City, MO. CA

Jane Austen (A) Birth: 12/16/1775, 11:45 p.m. LMT, Steveston, England. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Eshelman quotes “Pioneer to Poet, a letter from her father announced birth as “beforemidnight.”Conception: 3/5/1775, 3:48:53p.m. LMT, Steveston, England.

Dr. Douglas M. Baker (B)

Birth: 12/31/1922, 1155 p.m. GMT, London, England. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and Mark

McDonough. David Fisher quotes his book, Esoteric Astrology, Part I.

Conception: 3/20/1922, 10:44:31 p.m. GMT, London, England.

Hans Baumgartner (A) Birth: 6/07/1906, 5:00 p.m. MET, Reichenberg, Germany. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Taeger Archives, a colleague.Conception: 8/306/1905, 1:24:52 a.m. MET, Reichenberg, Germany.

Faith Baldwin (A) Birth: 10/01/1893, 8:00 a.m. EST, New Rochelle, NY. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Church of Light quotes Blanca Holmes, 1943.Conception: 12/19/1892, 5:06:30 p.m. EST, New Rochelle, NY.

Elbert Benjamine (A) Birth: 12/12/1882, 5:55 a.m. LMT, Des Moines, IA. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Church of Light quotes him. Same in Sabian Symbols.

Conception: 2/28/1882, 7:38:46 p.m. LMT, Des Moines, IA.

Arnold Bennett (AA) Birth: 5/27/1867, 10:30 a.m. GMT, Hanley, England. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Paul Wright quotes Reginald Pound, Arnold Bennett , 1952, family bible.Conception: 8/18/1866, 8:54:32 p.m. GMT, Hanley, England.

Tom Boardman, Jr. (AA) Birth: 12/20/1930, 9:00 a.m. EST, Bronxville, NY. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Steinbrecher quotes birth certificate.





Conception: 3/09/1930, 1:25:33 a.m. EST, Bronxville, NY.

Nick Campion (A) Birth: 3/04/1953, 12:10 a.m. GMT, Bristol, England. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. LMR quotes his letter, 4/1993.Conception: 5/24/1952, 8:49:52 a.m. GMT, Bristol, England.

Johnny Carson (AA) Birth: 10/23/1925, 7:15 a.m. CST, Corning, IA. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. .Conception: 1/10/1925, 2:21:57 a.m. CST, Corning, IA.

C.E.O. Carter (A) Birth: 1/31/1887, 11:01 p.m. GMT, Parkstone, England. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Given by him in Symbolic Directions in Medical Astrology.

Conception: 4/22/1886, 12:48:21 a.m. GMT, Parkstone, England.

Paul Clancy (C) Birth: 6/29/1897, 8:45 a.m. EST, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden andMark McDonough. LMR quotes his wife, Joanne, time rectified by him.Conception: 9/20/1896, 6:47:24 a.m. EST, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Geoffrey Dean (AA) Birth: 12/30/1935, 4:30 p.m. GMT, Etham, England. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Birth certificate in hand from Charles Harvey.

Conception: 3/19/1935, 2:15:35 p.m. GMT, Etham, England.

Guy De Maupassant (A) Birth: 8/05/1850, 8:00 a.m. LMT, Dieppe, France. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Gauquelin 558, Vol. 6.Conception: 10/25/1849, 11:38:44 p.m. LMT, Dieppe, France.

Doris Chase Doane (AA)

Birth: 4/04/1913, 1:57 a.m. EST, Mansfield, MA. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and Mark

McDonough. LMR quotes her, 1964.Conception: 6/25/1912, 4:18:44 p.m. EST, Mansfield, MA.

Charles Emerson (A)

Birth: 7/26/1923, 9:19 a.m. CST, Omaha, NE. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. NCGR newsletter quotes him.Conception: 10/16/1922, 12:04:36 p.m. CST, Omaha, NE. CA

Cyril Fagan ( ) Birth: 7/26/1923, 9:19 a.m. CST, Omaha, NE. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. NCGR newsletter quotes him.Conception: 10/16/1922, 12:04:36 p.m. CST, Omaha, NE. CA

Ken Gillman (A)

Birth: 6/07/1937, 7:57 a.m. GDT, Leigh-on-Sea, England. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. David Fisher quotes him (from memory) to the Astrological Association.

Conception: 8/29/1936, 4:33:39 p.m. BST, Leigh-on-Sea, England.





Robert Hand (A) Birth: 12/05/1942, 7:30 p.m. EWT, Plainfield, NJ. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. From him in book, Planets in Transit.

Conception: 2/22/1942, 7:01:57 a.m. EWT, Plainfield, NJ.

Axel Harvey (A)

Birth: 2/06/1940, 2:33 p.m. EST, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden andMark McDonough. LMR quotes him, 2/1987, in Montreal, rectified by him from 3:00 p.m. in his BabyBook.Conception: 4/27/1940, 8:04:01 p.m. EST, Montreal, Quebec, Cananda.

Charles Jayne(A) Birth: 10/09/1911, 10:39 a.m. EST, Jenkintown, PA. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Church of Light quotes his own personal rectification of his own chart. SS has 10:43 p.m.

Conception: 12/27/1910, 2:55:12 p.m. EST, Jenkintown, PA.

Stephen King (A) Birth: 9/21/1947, 1:30:10 a.m. EDT, Portland, MN. From Considerations Vol. IX, No. 3, edited by KenGillman. Rectified by Gillman from 1:30 a.m.--from him.Conception: 12/09/1946, 8:14:50 p.m. EST, Portland, MN.

Alan Leo (B) Birth: 8/07/1860, 5:49 a.m. GMT, Westminster, England. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Data from his book, Esoteric Astrology.

Conception: 10/28/1859, 7:23:21 p.m. GMT, Westminster, England.

Al Morrison (A) Birth: 7/08/1916, 12:15 a.m. CST, North Little Rock, AR. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. LMR quotes him. Debbie Kempton-Smith quotes him for 12:17:29 a.m. CST.Conception: 9/29/1915, 5:17:47 p.m. CST, North Little Rock, AR.

Ira Progoff (A)

Birth: 8/2/1921, 10:00 a.m. EET, New York, NY. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and Mark

McDonough. Dobyns: from him to Jackie Morris.Conception: 10/23/1920, 5:44:17 a.m. EDT, New York, NY.

Ramanujan (B)

Birth: 12/22/1887, 6:20 p.m. IST, Erode, India. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. LMR quotes Robert Kanigel, The Man Who Knew Infinitiy, page 11, “just after sunset.”Conception: 3/11/1887, 12:20:16 p.m. IST, Erode, India.

Vivian Robson (A) Birth: 5/26/1890, 12:04 p.m. GMT, Birmingham, England. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden andMark McDonough. Fagan quotes Robson’s own chart rectified by him from 12:00 p.m., American

Astrology, 11/1963.Conception: 8/17/1889, 10:34:12 p.m. GMT, Birmingham, England.

Dane Rudhyar (A) Birth: 3/23/1895, 12:42 a.m. LMT, Paris, France. From Astrodatabank by Lois Rodden and MarkMcDonough. Rectified by him from “midnight to 1:00 a.m.. Leyla Rael quotes him. Also SS #810.

Zodiac- Discussion Between Zodiacs

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