Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruThe National Assembly for Wales

Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings

Dydd Mercher, 4 Chwefror 2009Wednesday, 4 February 2009

04/02/2009

CynnwysContents

4Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

23 Cwestiynau i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog Dros yr Economi a ThrafnidiaethQuestions to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport

43 Sefydlu ac Ethol Pwyllgorau Establishment and Election of Committees

44 Cynnig i Ddirymu Rheoliadau Atal Llygredd Nitradau (Cymru) 2008 Motion to Annul the Nitrate Pollution Prevention (Wales) Regulations 2008

50 Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Plant a Phobl Ifanc ar Dlodi Plant yng Nghymru: Ai Addysg yw’r Ateb? The Children and Young People Committee’s Report into Child Poverty in Wales: Eradication through Education

73 Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig: Addysg Bellach Welsh Conservatives Debate: Further Education

100 Dadl Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru: Dyledion Personol yng Nghymru Welsh Liberal Democrats Debate: Personal Debt in Wales

121 Cyfnod Pleidleisio Voting Time

129 Dadl Fer: Cymraeg Ail Iaith: Gweledigaeth, Tocenistiaeth a Methiant?Short Debate: Welsh Second Language: Vision, Tokenism and Failure?

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr.Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.

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In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation of those speeches has been

included.

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Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) yn y Gadair.The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m. with the Presiding Officer (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) in the Chair.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf y Cynulliad i drefn. The Presiding Officer: I call the Assembly to order.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau CymdeithasolQuestions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Achievements in the Ogmore constituency Llwyddiannau yn Etholaeth Ogwr

Q1 Janice Gregory: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Assembly Government’s health and social services achievements in the Ogmore constituency? OAQ(3)0926(HSS)

C1 Janice Gregory: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am lwyddiannau iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn etholaeth Ogwr? OAQ(3)0926(HSS)

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Edwina Hart): I am pleased to report that the Bridgend health and social services community, of which Ogmore is a part, was one of the highest performing areas in Wales against my key delivery targets for 2007-08 and is on track to deliver my targets and standards again in 2008-09.

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Edwina Hart): Yr wyf yn falch cyhoeddi mai cymuned iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, y mae Ogwr yn rhan ohoni, oedd un o’r ardaloedd a berfformiodd orau yng Nghymru yn ôl fy nhargedau darparu allweddol am 2007-08 a’i bod ar y trywydd i gyrraedd fy nhargedau a’m safonau eto yn 2008-09.

Janice Gregory: I thank you on behalf of my constituents for the wonderful work that has been carried out in the Ogmore constituency, in primary and secondary care, in the Princess of Wales Hospital. You will be aware that there have been great achievements in that regard, and we have seen considerable improvements. However, there is a strong feeling in the Bridgend area that a dialysis facility at the Princess of Wales Hospital is an urgent priority.

Janice Gregory: Diolch ichi ar ran fy etholwyr am y gwaith gwych sydd wedi’i wneud yn etholaeth Ogwr, ym maes iechyd sylfaenol ac eilaidd, yn Ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru. Byddwch yn ymwybodol bod pethau mawr wedi eu cyflawni yn hynny, ac yr ydym wedi gweld gwelliannau sylweddol. Fodd bynnag, mae teimlad cryf yn ardal Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr fod angen brys am gyfleuster dialysis yn Ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru.

Edwina Hart: We have agreed an additional investment of £2.5 million in 2008-09 and nearly £7 million in 2009-10 for dialysis extension projects across Wales. Some of the areas that we are looking at are in your constituency. Further work is being undertaken to look at whether the location should be in Baglan or Bridgend, and I will make a formal statement when the network has discussed this and made its recommendations to me.

Edwina Hart: Yr ydym wedi cytuno buddsoddiad ychwanegol o £2.5 miliwn yn 2008-09 a bron £7 miliwn yn 2009-10 ar gyfer prosiectau ehangu dialysis ledled Cymru. Mae rhai o’r ardaloedd yr ydym yn edrych arnynt yn eich etholaeth chi. Mae gwaith pellach yn cael ei wneud i weld a ddylai’r lleoliad fod ym Maglan ynteu ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr, a byddaf yn gwneud datganiad ffurfiol pan fydd y rhwydwaith wedi trafod hyn ac wedi cyflwyno’i argymhellion i mi.

Alun Cairns: Minister, there is no doubt that the Princess of Wales Hospital has been one

Alun Cairns: Weinidog, nid oes amheuaeth nad yw Ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru wedi bod

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of the best-performing hospitals in Wales for a considerable time, but complementary to the services provided by the national health service are social care and social services provided by the local authority. Do you concur with the views of the Welsh Local Government Association and leaders of local authorities in Wales that the amount of money that they have received for functions such as social services is miserly, and that that will have a detrimental effect on health care overall, because of the complementary way in which they are supposed to work together? As a result of the lack of funding, the difficulties that will exist in constituencies such as Ogmore, Bridgend, Gower and every other constituency in Wales mean that they will not be able to deliver their objectives and achieve your goals.

yn un o’r ysbytai sy’n perfformio orau yng Nghymru ers tro byd, ond yn ategol i’r gwasanaethau a ddarperir gan y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol mae’r gofal cymdeithasol a’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a ddarperir gan yr awdurdod lleol. A ydych yn cyd-fynd â sylwadau Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ac arweinwyr awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru fod yr arian y maent wedi’i gael ar gyfer swyddogaethau fel y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn grintachlyd, ac y caiff hynny effaith andwyol ar ofal iechyd yn gyffredinol, oherwydd y modd cyflenwol y maent i fod i gydweithio? O ganlyniad i’r diffyg cyllid, bydd yr anawsterau sydd mewn etholaethau fel Ogwr, Pen-y-bont, Gŵyr a phob etholaeth arall yng Nghymru yn golygu na fyddant yn gallu cyflawni eu hamcanion a chyrraedd eich nod.

Edwina Hart: I like the expression ‘supposed to work together’, and I suppose that that is the issue in the relationship between health and local government, because some do work well together and manage within their budgetary allocations to provide a first-class service. If only that were so across Wales. The Deputy Minister for Social Services, in dealing with the inspectorate’s report on social services in Plenary last week, mentioned some of the concerns that we have across Wales about the ability to deliver services. I do not think that it is necessarily a financial matter—it is a matter of will.

Edwina Hart: Yr wyf yn hoffi’r ymadrodd ‘i fod i gydweithio’, ac mae’n debyg mai dyna’r cwestiwn yn y berthynas rhwng iechyd a llywodraeth leol, oherwydd y mae rhai’n cydweithio’n dda â’i gilydd ac yn llwyddo o fewn eu dyraniadau cyllidebol i ddarparu gwasanaeth o’r radd flaenaf. O na bai hynny’n wir am Gymru benbaladr. Soniodd y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Wasanaethau Cymdeithasol, wrth ymdrin ag adroddiad yr arolygaeth ar wasanaethau cymdeithasol yn y Cyfarfod Llawn yr wythnos diwethaf, am rai o’r pryderon sydd gennym ar draws Cymru ynglŷn â gallu cyflenwi gwasanaethau. Nid wyf yn credu mai mater ariannol ydyw o reidrwydd—mater o ewyllys ydyw.

NHS Services Gwasanaethau GIG

Q2 Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on proposals to improve the delivery of NHS services in South Wales Central? OAQ(3)0876(HSS)

C2 Andrew R.T. Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am gynigion i wella darparu gwasanaethau GIG yng Nghanol De Cymru? OAQ(3)0876(HSS)

Edwina Hart: As you are aware, we are in the middle of consultation on proposals to change the structure of the NHS in Wales. These proposals aim to improve the delivery of NHS services across Wales, including in South Wales Central.

Edwina Hart: Fel y gwyddoch, yr ydym ar ganol ymgynghori ynghylch cynigion i newid strwythur y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru. Mae’r cynigion hyn yn amcanu at wella darparu gwasanaethau GIG ar draws Cymru, gan gynnwys Canol De Cymru.

Andrew R.T. Davies: One of the prerequisites of a good health service is an appreciation of the skills balance of the workforce, ensuring that we retain the staff

Andrew R.T. Davies: Un o ragofynion gwasanaeth iechyd da yw gwerthfawrogi cydbwysedd sgiliau’r gweithlu, gan sicrhau y byddwn yn cadw cydbwysedd y staff. Sylwaf

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balance. I notice in today’s press that you have announced a programme to bring in new staff and to train new midwives in particular. However, of critical importance is the retention of existing midwives and attracting health staff who may have left the service for family reasons or career progression into other fields. What measures has the Assembly Government taken to ensure to ensure that these staff can be brought back into the NHS so that best use can be made of the skills that they have?

yn y wasg heddiw eich bod wedi cyhoeddi rhaglen i ddod â staff newydd i mewn ac i hyfforddi bydwragedd newydd yn arbennig. Fodd bynnag, mae’n hollbwysig cadw’r bydwragedd sydd gennym eisoes, a denu staff iechyd sydd efallai wedi gadael y gwasanaeth am resymau teuluol neu i ddatblygu gyrfa mewn meysydd eraill. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi’u cymryd i sicrhau y gellir dod â’r staff hyn yn ôl i mewn i’r GIG fel y gellir defnyddio’r sgiliau sydd ganddynt yn y ffordd orau?

Edwina Hart: I totally concur with your comments about how it is important to retain staff in the NHS and to encourage them to come back if they have left for any reason. We offer retraining opportunities in the NHS, and there is further work that can be done in this area. I would be more than happy to take this up with my professional advisers and other groups to look at what further work we could do to enhance the prospects of people who want to return to the NHS.

Edwina Hart: Cytunaf yn llwyr â’ch sylwadau ynghylch pwysigrwydd cadw staff yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol a’u hannog i ddod yn ôl os ydynt wedi gadael am ryw reswm. Yr ydym yn cynnig cyfleoedd ailhyfforddi yn y GIG, ac mae mwy o waith y gellir ei wneud yn y maes hwn. Byddwn yn fwy na bodlon codi hyn gyda’m cynghorwyr proffesiynol a grwpiau eraill i weld pa waith pellach y gallem ei wneud i wella rhagolygon pobl sydd am ddychwelyd i’r GIG.

Chris Franks: I have been contacted by constituents who feel a sense of betrayal over the closure of the day service at the minor injury unit in Mountain Ash Hospital. What assurances can you give with regard to health services in the Cynon valley prior to the opening of the new hospital? You will be aware of the failure of Cwm Taf NHS Trust regarding the recruitment of staff. What commitments can you give regarding services, following the closure of Llwynypia Hospital minor injuries unit and wards at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital and the Prince Charles Hospital over Christmas?

Chris Franks: Mae etholwyr wedi cysylltu â mi sy’n teimlo’u bod wedi eu bradychu drwy gau’r gwasanaeth dydd yn yr uned mân anafiadau yn Ysbyty Aberpennar. Pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi ynglŷn â gwasanaethau iechyd yng nghwm Cynon cyn agor yr ysbyty newydd? Byddwch yn ymwybodol o fethiant Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Cwm Taf yng nghyswllt recriwtio staff. Pa ymrwymiadau y gallwch eu rhoi ynglŷn â gwasanaethau, yn dilyn cau’r uned mân anafiadau yn Ysbyty Llwynypia a wardiau yn Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg ac Ysbyty’r Tywysog Siarl dros y Nadolig?

Edwina Hart: You paint a very bleak picture of health services in your area, which is not true. We have made great improvements in healthcare in that area. There will obviously be issues around staff recruitment. We must look at the issues around minor injury units in terms of whether they work and what we do with them, but I am confident that the trust is finding a way forward through all these issues. We also have to look at the massive amount of money that is being put into that area, which will lead to further improvements in services.

Edwina Hart: Yr ydych yn creu darlun du iawn o wasanaethau iechyd yn eich ardal, a hwnnw heb fod yn wir. Yr ydym wedi gwneud gwelliannau mawr mewn gofal iechyd yn yr ardal honno. Yn amlwg bydd cwestiynau ynghylch recriwtio staff. Rhaid inni edrych ar y cwestiynau ynghylch unedau mân anafiadau i weld a ydynt yn gweithio a beth a wnawn â hwy, ond yr wyf yn hyderus fod yr ymddiriedolaeth yn dod o hyd i ffordd ymlaen drwy’r holl faterion hyn. Rhaid inni edrych hefyd ar y swm anferth sy’n cael ei roi i mewn i’r ardal honno, a fydd yn arwain at welliannau pellach mewn gwasanaethau.

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Jenny Randerson: You may be aware of the case of my constituent, Peter Ataou, who has been protesting outside the Assembly today. I hope that I can give you good news on his case. By some strange coincidence, following the publication of the story of the protest, yesterday afternoon, the local health board rang him up and said that his appeal for the life-prolonging drug Revlimid, otherwise known as lenalidomide, had been granted. Mr Ataou has fought for six months on this case. It started with the unedifying spectacle of the trust and the LHB arguing about who was responsible for paying for this drug. Will you look again at this issue? In the light of the fact that LHBs and trusts are about to merge, it is truly stupid that they are arguing about who is responsible for payment. In the light of your letter about this drug, which was received last week, could you issue guidance to LHBs that they should, if you like, anticipate the result of the draft guidance that the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has already issued, which we fully expect to be implemented in April, which states that this drug should be made available to sufferers of multiple myeloma, because it will help to prolong their lives?

Jenny Randerson: Hwyrach eich bod yn gwybod am achos fy etholwr, Peter Ataou, sydd wedi bod yn gwrthdystio’r tu allan i’r Cynulliad y prynhawn yma. Gobeithio y gallaf roi newyddion da ichi am ei achos. Drwy ryw gyd-ddigwyddiad rhyfedd, wedi cyhoeddi’r stori am y brotest brynhawn ddoe, cafodd alwad ffôn gan y bwrdd iechyd lleol i ddweud bod ei apêl am gael y cyffur ymestyn bywyd, Revlimid, a elwir hefyd yn lenalidomid, wedi’i chaniatáu. Mae Mr Ataou wedi bod yn ymladd yr achos hwn ers chwe mis. Dechreuodd gyda dadl gywilyddus rhwng yr ymddiriedolaeth a’r bwrdd iechyd lleol ynghylch pwy oedd yn gyfrifol am dalu am y cyffur hwn. A wnewch chi edrych ar hyn eto? Gan fod byrddau iechyd lleol ac ymddiriedolaethau ar fin uno, mae’n hollol wirion eu bod yn dadlau dros bwy sy’n gyfrifol am dalu. Yng ngolau eich llythyr am y cyffur hwn, a ddaeth i law yr wythnos diwethaf, a allech roi cyfarwyddyd i fyrddau iechyd lleol y dylent, os mynnwch, ragweld canlyniad y cyfarwyddyd drafft a gyhoeddwyd eisoes gan y Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros Iechyd a Rhagoriaeth Glinigol, y disgwyliwn ei weithredu’n llawn ym mis Ebrill. Mae hwnnw’n dweud y dylid sicrhau bod y cyffur hwn ar gael i bobl sy’n dioddef gan myeloma ymledol, oherwydd y bydd yn help i ymestyn eu bywydau?

Edwina Hart: On a personal level, we would all be pleased that this matter has been resolved to your constituent’s satisfaction. The case has provided me with interesting information about how things work or do not work in the NHS with regard to these issues. I am happy to say ‘yes’ to both points that you have raised.

Edwina Hart: Ar lefel bersonol, byddem i gyd yn falch fod y mater hwn wedi’i ddatrys er boddhad eich etholwr. Mae’r achos hwn wedi darparu gwybodaeth ddiddorol imi am y modd y mae pethau’n gweithio neu ddim yn gweithio o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol ynglŷn â’r materion hyn. Yr wyf yn hapus i roi ateb cadarnhaol i’r ddau bwynt a godwyd gennych.

Ailstrwythuro’r GIG NHS Restructuring

Q3 Paul Davies: Will the Minister provide an update on NHS restructuring in Wales? OAQ(3)0906(HSS)

C3 Paul Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am ailstrwythuro’r GIG yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0906(HSS)

Edwina Hart: The proposals to restructure are ongoing until 25 February, when we will have had all the consultation papers in.

Edwina Hart: Mae’r cynigion ailstrwythuro yn parhau tan 25 Chwefror, pryd y byddwn wedi cael y papurau ymgynghori i gyd i mewn.

Paul Davies: I declare an interest in that my Paul Davies: Yr wyf yn datgan buddiant gan

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wife works for Hywel Dda NHS Trust. fod fy ngwraig yn gweithio i Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Hywel Dda.

You have made it clear that restructuring the NHS is vital in order to streamline its management and to invest the efficiency savings in delivering improved healthcare to patients. Restructuring and streamlining the management of any organisation will include reducing staff costs. However, I am told that there will be no redundancies in the trust covering my area, because it is not Assembly Government policy to make people redundant. That could lead to staff ending up without a job and being continuously paid by the taxpayer. In the circumstances, will you explain what the purpose of restructuring the NHS in Wales was if the Welsh Assembly Government cannot reduce staff management costs and reinvest in front-line public services?

Yr ydych wedi dweud yn glir ei bod yn hanfodol ailstrwythuro’r GIG er mwyn symleiddio’i drefn reoli ac i fuddsoddi’r arbedion effeithlonrwydd i roi gwell gofal iechyd i gleifion. Bydd ailstrwythuro a symleiddio rheolaeth unrhyw sefydliad yn cynnwys lleihau costau staff. Fodd bynnag, dywedir wrthyf na fydd dim diswyddo yn yr ymddiriedolaeth yn fy ardal i, am nad polisi Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yw diswyddo pobl. Gallai hynny olygu y byddai staff heb waith i’w wneud ac y byddai’r trethdalwr yn gorfod eu talu’n barhaus. Dan yr amgylchiadau, a wnewch chi egluro beth oedd pwrpas ailstrwythuro’r GIG yng Nghymru os na all Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru leihau costau rheoli staff ac ailfuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus rheng flaen?

1.40 p.m.

Edwina Hart: Obviously, the restructuring is a long-term game. It will be some time before we know how we will deal with some of the very difficult issues, which I talk about every day, and how management will work. On the other hand, I have made it clear that I would not want to see large-scale redundancies. I would prefer to see natural wastage as we change the system. At this particularly difficult time, I would not want to be talking about redundancies in the NHS.

Edwina Hart: Yn amlwg, gêm i’r tymor hir yw’r ailstrwythuro. Bydd cryn amser cyn y byddwn yn gwybod sut y byddwn yn ymdrin â rhai o’r materion anodd iawn y byddaf yn siarad amdanynt bob dydd, a sut y bydd y rheoli’n gweithio. Ar y llaw arall, yr wyf wedi gwneud yn glir na fyddwn am weld dileu swyddi ar raddfa fawr. Byddai’n well gennyf weld gwastraff naturiol wrth inni newid y system. Ar yr adeg arbennig o anodd hon, ni fyddwn am siarad am ddileu swyddi yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: It is clear why restructuring had to take place—the old system was not working. It seems strange to me that the Conservative Party, which complained about the old system, now wants to retain it. Added to that, it is now advocating redundancies; at a time of recession, the Conservatives are telling us that there should be redundancies in the health service. Are you as surprised as I am—

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Mae’n amlwg pam yr oedd yn rhaid ailstrwythuro—nid oedd yr hen drefn yn gweithio. Mae’n ymddangos yn od i mi fod y Blaid Geidwadol, a gwynodd am yr hen drefn, bellach eisiau ei chadw. At hynny, y mae’n awr yn annog dileu swyddi; ar adeg o ddirwasgiad mae’r Ceidwadwyr yn dweud wrthym y dylid dileu swyddi yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. A ydych yn synnu gymaint â mi—

The Presiding Officer: Order. It would be helpful if a question was asked of the Minister, who has no responsibility, as far as I am aware, for the Welsh Conservative Party.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Byddai’n fuddiol pe gofynnid cwestiwn i’r Gweinidog, nad oes ganddo ddim cyfrifoldeb, hyd y gwn i, am y Blaid Geidwadol Gymreig.

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Rhodri Glyn Thomas: I just asked if she was as gobsmacked as me about their comments.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Gofyn a wneuthum a oedd hi wedi’i syfrdanu gymaint â mi gan eu sylwadau.

Edwina Hart: There was a general understanding across the Chamber that we needed to look at reforming the structures of the national health service. At the end of the day, I want to ensure that we maximise the potential of staff. I do not want them to feel vulnerable during this period. We will see the benefits of a reduction in administration costs and streamlining over a number of years. It will be done gradually through natural wastage, which is right and proper.

Edwina Hart: Yr oedd dealltwriaeth gyffredinol ar draws y Siambr fod angen inni edrych ar ddiwygio strwythurau’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Yn y pen draw, mae arnaf eisiau sicrhau y gwnawn y mwyaf o botensial ein staff. Nid oes arnaf eisiau iddynt deimlo eu bod yn agored i ddioddef yn ystod y cyfnod hwn. Cawn weld manteision lleihau costau gweinyddu a symleiddio dros nifer o flynyddoedd. Fe’i gwneir yn raddol drwy wastraff naturiol, sy’n iawn ac yn briodol.

Jonathan Morgan: For many patients throughout Wales, the restructuring of the NHS should mean better, more efficient, services, with better access to the latest treatments and modern drugs that are approved by NICE. Since your announcement two weeks ago that the drugs Sutent, Nexavar, Avastin and Torisel would be funded in Wales, how many patients have started the courses?

Jonathan Morgan: I lawer o gleifion drwy Gymru gyfan, dylai ailstrwythuro’r GIG olygu gwasanaethau gwell, mwy effeithlon, a gwell gallu i gael y triniaethau diweddaraf a’r cyffuriau modern sydd wedi’u cymeradwyo gan NICE. Ers eich cyhoeddiad bythefnos yn ôl y byddai’r cyffuriau Sutent, Nexavar, Avastin a Torisel yn cael ei hariannu yng Nghymru, faint o gleifion sydd wedi dechrau’r cyrsiau?

Edwina Hart: I do not have those statistics available.

Edwina Hart: Nid yw’r ystadegau hynny gennyf wrth law.

Jonathan Morgan: There is a very good reason why you do not have those statistics available. You have decided to cancel the funding for the Welsh analytical prescribing unit, which monitored how new, modern medicines were being rolled out throughout Wales. How do you expect to get the figures when you are cutting funding to the unit that does the monitoring?

Jonathan Morgan: Mae rheswm da iawn pam nad yw’r ystadegau hynny gennych wrth law. Yr ydych wedi penderfynu atal y cyllid i uned ragnodi dadansoddol Cymru, a fyddai’n monitro’r modd y câi meddyginiaethau modern newydd eu cyflwyno’n raddol drwy Gymru gyfan. Sut yr ydych yn disgwyl cael y ffigurau a chithau’n cwtogi’r cyllid i’r uned sy’n gwneud y gwaith monitro?

Moreover, although NICE has today announced that Sutent is to be funded by the United Kingdom Government, the other three drugs, Nexavar, Avastin and Torisel, will not. How does that sit with the announcement that you made two weeks ago? The people of Wales will want to know whose decision stands: yours, or the NICE decision.

At hynny, er bod NICE wedi cyhoeddi heddiw y telir am Sutent gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, nid felly y tri chyffur arall, Nexavar, Avastin a Torisel. Sut mae cysoni hynny â’r cyhoeddiad a wnaethoch bythefnos yn ôl? Bydd ar bobl Cymru eisiau gwybod penderfyniad pwy sy’n sefyll: eich penderfyniad chi, ynteu penderfyniad NICE.

Edwina Hart: The NICE decision complements my decision, and my decision stands in respect of all the drugs.

Edwina Hart: Mae penderfyniad NICE yn ategu fy mhenderfyniad i, ac y mae fy mhenderfyniad i’n sefyll mewn perthynas â’r cyffuriau i gyd.

Mick Bates: In your consultation last week Mick Bates: Yn eich ymgynghoriad yr

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on the future of community health councils in Wales, you placed significant importance on engaging with all citizens at a local level. This service is already delivered in Montgomeryshire by the excellent Montgomery Community Health Council. It represents everyone in the county at all levels of the NHS. Your consultation proposes one CHC for the whole of Powys, with two area associations, which will undertake the functions at the current CHC level. Then they will advise the Powys CHC about what is happening at the local level. Do you agree that this proposal will only add a further bureaucratic layer to the system, and is no improvement at all on the current set-up? In fact, it may even threaten the ability of the CHC to represent people at a local level.

wythnos diwethaf ar ddyfodol cynghorau iechyd cymunedol yng Nghymru, yr oeddech yn rhoi pwysigrwydd sylweddol i ymgysylltu â dinasyddion ar lefel leol. Darperir y gwasanaeth hwn eisoes ym Maldwyn gan Gyngor Iechyd Cymuned rhagorol Sir Drefaldwyn. Mae’n cynrychioli pawb yn y sir ar bob lefel yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Mae eich ymgynghoriad yn cynnig un Cyngor Iechyd Cymuned i Bowys gyfan, gyda dwy gymdeithas ardal, a fydd yn ymgymryd â’r swyddogaethau ar lefel y cyngor iechyd cymuned presennol. Wedyn bydd y rheini’n cynghori cyngor iechyd Powys ynghylch yr hyn sy’n digwydd ar y lefel leol. A ydych yn cytuno na wnaiff y cynnig hwn ddim ond ychwanegu haen fiwrocrataidd arall at y system, ac nad yw’n welliant o gwbl ar y drefn bresennol? Yn wir, gall hyd yn oed fygwth gallu’r cyngor iechyd cymuned i gynrychioli pobl ar lefel leol.

Edwina Hart: Thank you for those comments. I trust that you will make them formally to me as part of the consultation process. This is a very open consultation on the role of CHCs, and seeks to improve their role and function across Wales to reflect the new structure with the LHBs. I welcome all comments of that nature.

Edwina Hart: Diolch am y sylwadau hynny. Hyderaf y byddwch yn eu cyflwyno’n ffurfiol i mi fel rhan o’r broses ymgynghori. Mae hwn yn ymgynghoriad agored iawn ar rôl cynghorau iechyd cymuned, sy’n ceisio gwella’u rôl a’u swyddogaeth ar draws Cymru i adlewyrchu’r strwythur newydd gyda’r byrddau iechyd lleol. Yr wyf yn croesawu pob sylw o’r natur hwnnw.

The Health of Children and Young People Iechyd Plant a Phobl Ifanc

Q4 Lorraine Barrett: What is the Welsh Assembly Government doing to promote good health among children and young people? OAQ(3)0919(HSS)

C4 Lorraine Barrett: Beth y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ei wneud i hybu iechyd da ymhlith plant a phobl ifanc? OAQ(3)0919(HSS)

Edwina Hart: A range of actions are outlined in the children’s national service framework, and the food and fitness implementation plan. For example, 90 per cent of schools are involved in the Welsh network of healthy school schemes, over 100 schools have benefited from cooking bus visits, and the MEND obesity management programme is being piloted.

Edwina Hart: Mae ystod o gamau wedi’u hamlinellu yn y fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol i blant, a’r cynllun gweithredu ar fwyd a ffitrwydd. Er enghraifft, mae 90 y cant o ysgolion yn ymwneud â rhwydwaith Cymru o gynlluniau ysgol iach, mae dros 100 o ysgolion wedi manteisio ar ymweliadau’r bws coginio, ac mae rhaglen rheoli gordewdra MEND yn cael ei pheilota.

Lorraine Barrett: We can all appreciate that a good diet is important to children and young people, but so is exercise. While this may not directly come under your portfolio, would you join me in congratulating organisations such as the Windsor Lawn

Lorraine Barrett: Gallwn i gyd werthfawrogi bod deiet da yn bwysig i blant a phobl ifanc, ond felly hefyd ymarfer. Er efallai nad yw hyn yn dod yn uniongyrchol dan eich portffolio, a wnewch chi ymuno â mi i longyfarch cyrff fel Clwb Tenis Windsor

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Tennis Club in Penarth, which has recently undertaken a £70,000 refurbishment scheme because it has seen such an increase in the number of young people and children taking up the sport of tennis—I hope to see some future champions among them. Do you agree that it is exercise and good health that will ensure a nation of healthy young people?

ym Mhenarth, sydd wedi ymgymryd â chynllun adnewyddu gwerth £70,000 yn ddiweddar am ei fod wedi cael cynnydd yn nifer y plant a phobl ifanc sydd wedi penderfynu rhoi cynnig ar chwarae tenis—gobeithiaf weld rhai o bencampwyr y dyfodol yn eu mysg. A ydych yn cytuno mai ymarfer corff ac iechyd da fydd yn sicrhau cenedl o bobl ifanc iach?

Edwina Hart: It is important to recognise the links between health, fitness and other associated issues across portfolios. I join you in congratulating that organisation.

Edwina Hart: Mae’n bwysig cydnabod y cysylltiadau rhwng iechyd, ffitrwydd a materion cysylltiedig eraill ar draws y meysydd portffolio. Ymunaf â chi i longyfarch y mudiad hwnnw.

David Melding: I was interested to read about the MEND scheme—Mind, Exercise, Nutrition…Do It!—which is aimed at seven to 13-year-olds and their families to encourage better nutrition and more exercise, as well as wellbeing in terms of good mental health. If this scheme is successful, could it be applied to those between the ages of three and seven? Habits are often established in early childhood that can endure throughout childhood and adolescence and beyond to adult life.

David Melding: Yr oedd o ddiddordeb imi ddarllen am y cynllun MEND—Mind, Exercise, Nutrition…Do It!—sy’n anelu at blant a phobl ifanc rhwng saith a 13 oed a’u teuluoedd i annog gwell maethiad a mwy o ymarfer corff, yn ogystal â lles o ran iechyd meddwl da. Os bydd y cynllun hwn yn llwyddo, a ellid ei wneud yn berthnasol i blant rhwng tair a saith oed? Caiff arferion eu sefydlu’n gynnar yn ystod plentyndod yn aml, a pharhau drwy weddill plentyndod, blaenlencyndod ac ymlaen i gyfnod oedolyn.

Edwina Hart: I will look at the point that you raised, as it is interesting. I will ask the officials concerned and the chief medical officer to review your comments, which are perfectly valid in the context of encouraging good habits.

Edwina Hart: Byddaf yn ystyried y pwynt a godwch, oherwydd y mae’n ddiddorol. Gofynnaf i’r swyddogion dan sylw a’r prif swyddog meddygol adolygu eich sylwadau, sy’n hynod ddilys yng nghyd-destun annog arferion da.

Val Lloyd: I am sure that you will agree that the ‘One Wales’ commitment to provide a family nurse in every secondary school will promote good physical and emotional health in children and young people. Independent research was commissioned to ask children and young people about the provision of a family nurse, summarised in the Cazbah report, indicated exactly what those children and young people wanted from the proposed new service.

Val Lloyd: Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch y bydd un o ymrwymiadau ‘Cymru’n Un’, sef darparu nyrs deulu ym mhob ysgol uwchradd, yn hyrwyddo iechyd corfforol ac emosiynol da mewn plant a phobl ifanc. Yr oedd y gwaith ymchwil annibynnol a gomisiynwyd i holi plant a phobl ifanc ynghylch darparu nyrs deulu, sydd wedi’i grynhoi yn adroddiad Cazbah, yn nodi’n union yr hyn yr oedd y plant a’r bobl ifanc hynny am ei gael o’r gwasanaeth newydd arfaethedig.

The initial consultation of professional stakeholders closed in early December last year. Can you give any indication of the overall findings of that consultation and their possible implications for the development of the provision of the family nurse?

Daeth yr ymgynghori cychwynnol ymhlith rhanddeiliaid proffesiynol i ben ddechrau mis Rhagfyr y llynedd. A allwch roi unrhyw syniad o ddarganfyddiadau cyffredinol yr ymgynghori hwnnw a’u goblygiadau posibl ar gyfer datblygu’r syniad o ddarparu nyrs

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deulu?

Edwina Hart: The consultation was particularly successful. I am not sure about the term ‘family nurse’ any more; perhaps ‘school nurse’ is more appropriate given their links to the wider community.

Edwina Hart: Bu’r ymgynghori’n arbennig o lwyddiannus. Nid wyf yn siŵr am y term ‘nyrs deulu’ bellach; efallai fod ‘nyrs ysgol’ yn fwy priodol o gofio’u cysylltiadau â’r gymuned ehangach.

We are currently sifting through the various strands of information that have come in on this issue, and I will be happy to update Members when I have further information to impart.

Yr ydym wrthi ar hyn o bryd yn mynd drwy’r wybodaeth a gawsom am y mater hwn, a byddaf yn fwy na pharod i roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i Aelodau pan fydd gennyf fwy o wybodaeth i’w chyflwyno.

Jeff Cuthbert: Last Tuesday evening, I, along with other Assembly Members, attended an Asthma UK function organised by Sandy Mewies. Asthma UK is particularly concerned about asthma in schoolchildren. Do you agree that it would be enormously useful for your officials to work with DCELLS officials so that teachers are adequately trained to identify and assist children who have asthma problems so that the negative impact on their education is minimised?

Jeff Cuthbert: Nos Fawrth diwethaf, yr oeddwn i, ynghyd ag Aelodau eraill o’r Cynulliad, yn bresennol mewn digwyddiad Asthma UK a drefnwyd gan Sandy Mewies. Mae Asthma UK yn bryderus iawn ynghylch asthma ymhlith plant ysgol. A ydych yn cytuno y byddai’n hynod o ddefnyddiol i’ch swyddogion weithio gyda swyddogion APADGOS er mwyn i athrawon gael eu hyfforddi’n ddigonol i adnabod ac i helpu plant sydd â phroblemau asthma, er mwyn i’r effaith negyddol ar eu haddysg fod mor fach â phosibl?

Edwina Hart: You make a good point, and Asthma UK has made the same point to me and my officials. I will take it up in my discussions with the Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills. We can do a lot more in the education system to help people with particular problems so that they do not miss out on educational opportunities.

Edwina Hart: Mae gennych bwynt da, ac y mae Asthma UK wedi cyflwyno’r un pwynt imi a’m swyddogion. Byddaf yn rhoi sylw i’r pwynt yn fy nhrafodaethau gyda’r Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau. Gallwn wneud llawer mwy yn y system addysg i helpu pobl sydd â phroblemau penodol fel na fyddant yn colli cyfleoedd addysgol.

Gwasanaethau Deintyddol Dental Services

Q5 Paul Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of dental services in Wales? OAQ(3)0905(HSS)

C5 Paul Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ddarparu gwasanaethau deintyddol yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0905(HSS)

Edwina Hart: Access to NHS dentistry has improved since the new dental contract was introduced. Currently, 19 out of 22 local health boards report no access difficulties and have dental practices in their areas accepting new NHS patients. In Pembrokeshire, some 30,000 new patients have been placed with NHS practices since April 2006.

Edwina Hart: Mae gallu cael gwasanaethau deintyddol y GIG wedi gwella ers cyflwyno’r contract deintyddol newydd. Ar hyn o bryd, mae 19 o blith 22 o fyrddau iechyd lleol wedi dweud nad ydynt yn cael anawsterau wrth geisio cael y gwasanaethau hyn, ac y mae ganddynt bractisau deintyddol yn eu hardaloedd sy’n derbyn cleifion GIG newydd. Yn sir Benfro, mae tua 30,000 o gleifion newydd wedi cael lle mewn practisau

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GIG er mis Ebrill 2006.

Paul Davies: The Minister knows that I have raised the plight of dentistry in Pembrokeshire on several occasions. Pembrokeshire has had one of the lowest ratios of dentists per head of the population in Wales. In recent months, I have received several letters and e-mails from parents who are concerned about shortfalls in orthodontic treatment. I have also heard from several constituents who have either had to wait years or pay hundreds of pounds for their children’s orthodontic treatment. I am sure that the Minister will agree that it is unacceptable for parents to be forced to pay for their children’s treatment. Minister, what action is the Welsh Assembly Government taking to address this issue, particularly as it affects my constituency?

Paul Davies: Gŵyr y Gweinidog fy mod wedi tynnu sylw deoeon at sefyllfa ddeintyddol sir Benfro. Mae sir Benfro wedi bod ag un o’r cymarebau isaf yng Nghymru o ran nifer y deintyddion y pen. Yn y misoedd diweddar yr wyf wedi cael nifer o lythyrau a negeseuon e-bost gan rieni sy’n poeni am ddiffygion mewn triniaeth orthodonteg. Yr wyf hefyd wedi clywed gan amryw o etholwyr sydd naill ai wedi gorfod aros blynyddoedd neu dalu cannoedd o bunnoedd am driniaeth orthodonteg i’w plant. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog yn cytuno nad yw’n dderbyniol bod rhieni’n cael eu gorfodi i dalu am driniaeth i’w plant. Weinidog, pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn eu cymryd i fynd i’r afael â hyn, yn enwedig fel y mae’n effeithio ar fy etholaeth i?

1.50 p.m.

Edwina Hart: The issue of orthodontics is note restricted to Pembrokeshire, as concerns have been expressed across Wales. It is one of the ongoing issues being discussed by my dental working group, and I will be happy to update you if it comes up with any further recommendations to me on that. It is important to recognise that there are medical needs in relation to orthodontics and not just cosmetic issues. We need to recognise that point, particularly in relation to children.

Edwina Hart: Nid yw problem orthodonteg yn gyfyngedig i sir Benfro, oherwydd mae pryderon wedi’u mynegi ledled Cymru. Mae’n un o’r problemau parhaus sy’n cael eu trafod gan fy ngweithgor deintyddol, a byddaf yn fwy na pharod i roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf ichi os bydd y gweithgor yn cynnig unrhyw argymhellion eraill imi ar hynny. Mae’n bwysig cydnabod bod yna anghenion meddygol yng nghyswllt orthodonteg, nid materion cosmetig yn unig. Mae angen inni gydnabod y pwynt hwnnw, yn enwedig yng nghyswllt plant.

Nerys Evans: Bûm yn siarad yn ddiweddar â thrigolion Angle a Hundleton yn ne-orllewin sir Benfro, sy’n gorfod teithio i Abertawe i gael gwasanaeth gan ddeintydd y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Golyga hynny siwrnai o ryw bedair awr i gyd, ac mae hynny’n lot o beth i deuluoedd â phlant bach. A gredwch fod hynny’n dderbyniol, ac a wnewch chi edrych ar yr achosion penodol hyn er mwyn gweld beth gellid ei wneud o safbwynt darparu gwasanaeth deintyddol yn fwy lleol?

Nerys Evans: I have recently been speaking with the people of Angle and Hundleton in south-west Pembrokeshire, who have to travel to Swansea to access a national health service dentist. That is a round trip of some four hours, which is a lot to ask of families with small children. Do you think this is acceptable, and would you be prepared to look at these specific cases to see what can be done to provide dentistry more locally?

Edwina Hart: As we understand from Pembrokeshire Local Health Board, six dental practices in the region are taking new patients. The practices are in Haverford West, Pembroke Dock, Whitland, and there

Edwina Hart: Fel y deallwn gan Fwrdd Iechyd Lleol Sir Benfro, mae chwe phractis deintyddol yn y rhanbarth yn derbyn cleifion newydd. Mae’r practisau yn Hwlffordd, Doc Penfro, Hendy-gwyn, ac mae tri yn

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are three in Milford Haven. Therefore, I think that we are addressing some of the issues, and it is important that your constituents make contact with the local health board to see whether they can attend a dentist closer to home.

Aberdaugleddau. Felly, credaf ein bod yn mynd i’r afael â rhai o’r problemau, ac y mae’n bwysig i’ch etholwyr gysylltu â’r bwrdd iechyd lleol i weld a allant weld deintydd yn agosach at eu cartrefi.

The Health Portfolio Y Portffolio Iechyd

Q6 Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on her priorities for expenditure in the health portfolio for the next two years? OAQ(3)877(HSS)

C6 Andrew R.T. Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ei blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y gwariant yn y portffolio iechyd dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf? OAQ(3)877(HSS)

The computer must have liked the name ‘Davies’ in selecting the first six questions.

Mae’n rhaid bod y cyfrifiadur wedi hoffi’r enw ‘Davies’ wrth ddewis y chwe chwestiwn cyntaf.

Edwina Hart: We like the name ‘Andrew’, you see. My priority is to ensure that the NHS and social services are sufficiently resourced to deliver safe, effective and efficient services to patients and those who need continuing care. My spending plans for 2009-10 are designed to continue the development of high-quality services despite the challenging financial outlook.

Edwina Hart: Yr ydym yn hoffi’r enw ‘Andrew’, wyddoch chi. Fy mlaenoriaeth yw sicrhau y caiff y GIG a’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol adnoddau digonol er mwyn darparu gwasanaethau diogel, effeithiol ac effeithlon i gleifion ac i’r rheini y mae angen gofal parhaus arnynt. Mae fy nghynlluniau gwariant ar gyfer 2009-10 wedi’u cynllunio i barhau i ddatblygu gwasanaethau o safon uchel, er gwaethaf y rhagolygon ariannol heriol.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Thank you, Minister. Yesterday, in her statement on schools for the twenty-first century, the Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills highlighted the crossover of departmental working required to create community schools, and she highlighted where the health department could work with the education department in providing facilities within community schools. Could you give us a taste of the sort of discussions that have gone on with the Department for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills to create a better community aspect in the whole range of public services that education and health can work together to provide?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch ichi, Weinidog. Ddoe, yn ei datganiad ar ysgolion ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain, tynnodd y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau sylw at y gorgyffwrdd mewn gweithio adrannol sy’n ofynnol i greu ysgolion cymunedol, a thynnodd sylw at lle gallai’r adran iechyd weithio gyda’r adran addysg i ddarparu cyfleusterau mewn ysgolion cymunedol. A allech roi syniad inni o’r math o drafodaethau a fu gyda’r Adran Plant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau er mwyn creu agwedd gymunedol well yn yr holl amrywiaeth o wasanaethau cyhoeddus y gall yr adran addysg a’r adran iechyd weithio gyda’i gilydd i’w darparu?

Edwina Hart: It is essential that there is more cross-Government working than ever before, as well as working with other organisations to achieve economies of scale, particularly if we are undertaking new developments. A great deal of discussion has

Edwina Hart: Mae’n hanfodol cael mwy o weithio ar draws y Llywodraeth yn awr nag erioed o’r blaen, yn ogystal â gweithio gyda chyrff eraill i sicrhau arbedion maint, yn enwedig os ydym yn ymgymryd â datblygiadau newydd. Mae llawer iawn o

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been going on at official level about how we can create capital projects to combine health and education. There are no firm specifics that I could outline to you at this time, but I will obviously keep Members apprised of any future developments.

drafod wedi bod ar lefel swyddogol am y ffordd y gallwn greu prosiectau cyfalaf er mwyn cyfuno iechyd ac addysg, Nid oes manylion pendant y gallwn eu hamlinellu ichi ar hyn o bryd, ond byddaf yn amlwg yn rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i Aelodau am unrhyw ddatblygiadau yn y dyfodol.

Helen Mary Jones: Minister, you will be aware that, across Wales, front-line staff, particularly in accident-and-emergency units, have been under a great deal of pressure because of early winter pressures. Are you confident that the new health bodies will have sufficient resources when they come into being to be able to plan adequately for winter pressures in future and to do what they can to ameliorate this problem, which we face on an annual basis?

Helen Mary Jones: Weinidog, byddwch yn gwybod fod staff rheng flaen ledled Cymru, yn enwedig mewn unedau damweiniau ac achosion brys, wedi bod dan bwysau mawr o ganlyniad i’r pwysau ar ddechrau’r gaeaf. A ydych yn hyderus y bydd gan y cyrff iechyd newydd, pan ddônt i rym, ddigon o adnoddau i gynllunio’n ddigonol ar gyfer pwysau’r gaeaf yn y dyfodol, ac i wneud popeth yn eu gallu i wella’r broblem hon, sy’n ein hwynebu bob blwyddyn?

Edwina Hart: I wish to begin by putting on record our thanks to the staff in the accident-and-emergency departments across Wales, who have had a very difficult time because of the increase in demand due to traditional winter pressures, and, with the bad weather, there will now be other issues as well. When we talk about the demands on accident-and-emergency units, we must recognise that, when the population has respiratory issues, flu and various viruses, it has an impact on the staff available to deal with these issues in these departments. I hope that the local health boards will look at the way in which they deliver this sort of care. It is essential that they maximise the use of their resources in that area and talk imaginatively about proposals on how to avoid taking people into accident-and-emergency units, including how people can be dealt with at home and what sort of advice they will receive. There is sufficient money in the system, but a much better co-ordinated approach is needed than currently exists.

Edwina Hart: Hoffwn ddechrau drwy gofnodi ein diolch i’r staff mewn adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys ledled Cymru, sydd wedi cael amser anodd iawn oherwydd y cynnydd yn y galw o ganlyniad i bwysau traddodiadol y gaeaf. Ac oherwydd y tywydd gwael, bydd problemau eraill hefyd iddynt ddelio â hwy yn awr. Pan fyddwn yn siarad am y galw ar unedau damweiniau ac achosion brys, mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod, pan fydd gan y boblogaeth broblemau anadlu, y ffliw ac amrywiol feirysau, mae’n cael effaith ar y staff sydd ar gael i ddelio â’r materion hyn yn yr adrannau hyn. Gobeithio y bydd y byrddau iechyd lleol yn ystyried y ffordd y maent yn darparu’r math hwn o ofal. Mae’n hanfodol iddynt fanteisio i’r eithaf ar ddefnyddio’u hadnoddau yn y maes hwnnw a siarad yn ddyfeisgar am y cynigion am y ffordd i osgoi mynd â phobl i unedau damweiniau ac achosion brys, gan gynnwys sut y gellir delio â phobl yn eu cartrefi a pha fath o gyngor a gânt. Mae digon o arian yn y system, ond y mae angen dull cydlynol llawer gwell na’r hyn sy’n bodoli ar hyn o bryd.

Peter Black: Minister, you will be aware of the dreadful performance figures for the ambulance trust that were published today. How will you be using your budget to try to address that performance and turn it around?

Peter Black: Weinidog, byddwch yn gwybod am ffigurau perfformiad ofnadwy yr ymddiriedolaeth ambiwlans a gyhoeddwyd heddiw. Sut y byddwch yn defnyddio’ch cyllideb i geisio mynd i’r afael â’r perfformiad hwnnw a’i wyrdroi?

Edwina Hart: I do not think that there is a budgetary issue with the ambulance trust. It

Edwina Hart: Nid wyf yn credu mai problem cyllideb sydd gan yr

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is a question of the management of the service in many areas. I have invested the capital that has been requested of me by the ambulance trust—a great deal of additional capital has gone in over the years. The figures are dreadful, but it has also experienced a very difficult period, and we must acknowledge that those front-line staff have had a difficult time over the past few weeks. It is very easy to look at the figures and criticise, but at the end of the day, we are working with the trust to try to make improvements. I wish that the improvements were happening more quickly than they are, but I think that we will make progress over the next 12 months.

ymddiriedolaeth ambiwlans. Mae a wnelo’r ffigurau hyn â’r broses o reoli’r gwasanaeth mewn llawer ardal. Yr wyf wedi buddsoddi’r cyfalaf y mae’r ymddiriedolaeth ambiwlans wedi gofyn imi amdano—mae llawer iawn o gyfalaf ychwanegol wedi’i ddyrannu iddynt dros y blynyddoedd. Mae’r ffigurau’n ofnadwy, ond y mae’r gwasanaeth hefyd wedi wynebu cyfnod anodd iawn, a rhaid inni gydnabod bod y staff rheng flaen hynny wedi cael amser caled dros yr wythnosau diwethaf. Mae’n hawdd iawn edrych ar y ffigurau a beirniadu, ond yn y pen draw yr ydym yn gweithio gyda’r ymddiriedolaeth i geisio gwneud gwelliannau. Byddwn wrth fy modd petai’r gwelliannau’n digwydd ynghynt, ond credaf y byddwn yn gwneud cynnydd dros y 12 mis nesaf.

Peter Black: Thank you for that answer, Minister, but, as I understand it, there are two capital bids from the ambulance trust that have been with your department for the best part of a year. One is for £5 million for investment in new ambulances, and there is a further bid for £35 million. If you will not give the chief executive the resources that he is asking for, how can you blame him for the problems that he encounters?

Peter Black: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog, ond hyd y deallaf mae eich adran wedi cael dau gais cyfalaf gan yr ymddiriedolaeth ambiwlans am ran helaeth o’r flwyddyn. Mae un cais yn gofyn am £5 miliwn i’w fuddsoddi mewn cerbydau ambiwlans newydd, ac mae cais arall yn gofyn am £35 miliwn. Os na rowch yr adnoddau y mae’r prif weithredwr yn gofyn amdanynt, sut y gallwch ei feio sy’n dod ar ei draws?

Edwina Hart: I do not think that I apportioned blame to any individual in my last response. I think that I indicated that I thought that there were management issues within the trust, which is probably the case in general. To be clear, many business cases come into my department. By the time that we have them done correctly, there will have been much to-ing and fro-ing. I will not needlessly spend public money on things unless I am absolutely convinced that the case is made. That is my job and my duty. I will not be deterred by all of this mischief- making about the ambulance trust and the idea of trying to put a line between us and the trust. I will not put up with it. Ultimately, I will look at business cases, as will my officials, and if they stack up, I agree business cases. That is my position. As far as I am concerned, the ambulance trust has resources to make it function and it should get on and function.

Edwina Hart: Ni chredaf fy mod yn bwrw’r bai ar neb yn fy ateb diwethaf. Credaf imi nodi fy mod yn credu bod problemau rheoli o fewn yr ymddiriedolaeth, ac mae hynny’n wir yn gyffredinol, fwy na thebyg. I fod yn glir, daw llawer o achosion busnes i’m hadran. Erbyn inni gwblhau’r rhain yn gywir, bydd cryn dipyn o fynd a dod wedi digwydd. Ni fyddaf yn gwario arian cyhoeddus yn ddiangen ar bethau oni bai fy mod wedi fy argyhoeddi’n llwyr fod yr achos wedi’i gyflwyno. Dyna yw fy ngwaith a’m dyletswydd. Ni fyddaf yn cael fy rhwystro gan yr holl godi cynnen hwn ynghylch yr ymddiriedolaeth ambiwlans a’r syniad o geisio tynnu llinell rhyngom a’r ymddiriedolaeth. Yn y pen draw, byddaf yn edrych ar achosion busnes, fel y bydd fy swyddogion, ac os byddant yn gwneud synnwyr byddaf yn cytuno ar achosion busnes. Dyna yw fy swydd. Yn fy marn i, mae gan yr ymddiriedolaeth ambiwlans yr adnoddau i weithio, a dylai fwrw ati i wneud hynny.

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Peter Black: Do you not think that the response times make that business case for you? What about the problems at accident-and-emergency departments where ambulance are queuing up to offload patients and where patients, on some occasions, have to wait for up to an hour or more before they can get off the ambulance? Do you not think that there is a business case that needs to be considered in respect of the ambulance service?

Peter Black: Oni chredwch fod yr amseroedd ymateb yn gwneud achos busnes ichi? Beth am y problemau mewn adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys lle bydd cerbydau ambiwlans yn gorfod aros eu tro i ollwng cleifion, a lle mae’n rhaid i gleifion, ar rai adegau, aros hyd at awr neu fwy cyn y gallant adael yr ambiwlans? Oni chredwch fod yna achos busnes y mae angen ei ystyried o ran y gwasanaeth ambiwlans?

Edwina Hart: The business cases for the ambulance trusts are being considered properly by my department. When they come to me, I deal with the issues that arise from them. There are difficulties with certain accident-and-emergency departments—not all accident-and-emergency departments—about discharging patients from ambulances. Those are matters that we are dealing with within the national health service and the trusts.

Edwina Hart: Mae’r achosion busnes dros yr ymddiriedolaethau ambiwlans yn cael eu hystyried gan fy adran yn briodol. Pan ddônt ataf, byddaf yn delio â’r materion sy’n codi ohonynt. Mae anawsterau gyda rhai adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys penodol—nid yr holl adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys—ynghylch rhyddhau cleifion o gerbydau ambiwlans. Mae’r rheini’n faterion yr ydym yn delio â hwy o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol a’r ymddiriedolaethau.

Lesley Griffiths: You will be aware, Minister, that last month saw the end of an European Union consultation on health tourism. The consultation added a whole new meaning to the term ‘cross-border healthcare’. Proposed EU policy in this area, and other areas, such as telemedicine, patients’ rights and rules on drugs, will place a huge onus on the national health service in Wales in terms of planning, managing and, importantly, the funding of these services.

Lesley Griffiths: Byddwch yn gwybod, Weinidog, fod ymgynghori gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd ar dwristiaeth iechyd wedi dod i ben fis diwethaf. Yr oedd yr ymgynghori’n rhoi ystyr cwbl newydd i’r term ‘gofal iechyd ar draws y ffin’. Bydd polisi arfaethedig yr UE yn y maes hwn, a meysydd eraill, megis telefeddygaeth, a hawliau a rheolau cleifion gyda chyffuriau, yn rhoi baich anferthol ar y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru o ran cynllunio a rheoli, ac yn arbennig o ran ariannu’r gwasanaethau hyn.

With more and more EU-wide health policy in the pipeline, is it time that we looked into the apparent disconnect between health being a devolved issue and the fact that decisions on health policy emanating from Brussels remains a reserved matter in London?

Gyda mwy a mwy o gynlluniau polisi iechyd ar y gweill drwy’r UE, a yw’n bryd inni ymchwilio i’r diffyg cysylltiad honedig rhwng y ffaith fod iechyd yn fater datganoledig a’r ffaith fod penderfyniadau ar bolisi iechyd sy’n deillio o Frwsel yn dal yn fater i Lundain?

Edwina Hart: It is a complex area because there are 27 countries involved in the discussions on some of these European health issues. I have discussed these issues with officials and we do not anticipate a large patient flow affecting Wales from any changes that happen. We will continue to be involved in discussions with the UK Government about the negotiating position

Edwina Hart: Mae’n faes cymhleth gan fod 27 o wledydd yn rhan o’r trafodaethau ar rai o’r materion iechyd Ewropeaidd hyn. Yr wyf wedi trafod y materion hyn gyda fy swyddogion, ac nid ydym yn disgwyl y bydd llif mawr o gleifion yn effeithio ar Gymru oherwydd unrhyw newidiadau a ddigwydd. Byddwn yn parhau i gymryd rhan yn y trafodaethau gyda Llywodraeth y DU ar y

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that we have in Europe about all matters that will affect Wales, Welsh citizens and Welsh budgets.

sefyllfa negodi sydd gennym yn Ewrop ynghylch pob mater a fydd yn effeithio ar Gymru, dinasyddion Cymru a chyllidebau Cymru.

Mental Health Treatment Triniaeth Iechyd Meddwl

Q7 Eleanor Burnham: Will the Minister make a statement on mental health treatment in Wales? OAQ(3)0902(HSS)

C7 Eleanor Burnham: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am driniaeth iechyd meddwl yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0902(HSS)

Edwina Hart: Mental health will continue to have a high priority and will be the specific responsibility of the vice-chair and a designated executive director of the new local health boards. Current resources will be protected and I expect significant progress towards full implementation of the national service framework over the next three years.

Edwina Hart: Bydd iechyd meddwl yn parhau’n flaenoriaeth uchel ac yn un o gyfrifoldebau penodol yr is-gadeirydd a chyfarwyddwr gweithredol dynodedig y byrddau iechyd lleol newydd. Caiff adnoddau presennol eu diogelu, a disgwyliaf y bydd cynnydd sylweddol tuag at weithredu’r fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol yn llawn dros y tair blynedd nesaf.

Eleanor Burnham: I am particularly concerned about dementia. Some of my colleagues and I were at an important conference on dementia held in north Wales recently. It was very moving. In view of the fact that the Alzheimer’s Society has called the UK Government’s dementia strategy a huge letdown, will you clarify how you view dementia treatment, along with the Welsh Assembly Government’s take on it? Also, will you provide clarification on the two crucial issues of the Welsh Assembly Government’s treatment of research, and of the review of the use of drugs, including anti-psychotic drugs?

Eleanor Burnham: Yr wyf yn poeni’n benodol ynglŷn â demensia. Yr oedd rhai o’m cyd-Aelodau a minnau mewn cynhadledd bwysig ar ddemensia a gynhaliwyd yng ngogledd Cymru’n ddiweddar. Yr oedd yn emosiynol iawn. Yng ngoleuni’r ffaith fod y Gymdeithas Alzheimer wedi dweud bod strategaeth Llywodraeth y DU ar ddemensia yn siomedig iawn, a wnewch chi egluro eich barn am driniaeth ar gyfer demensia, ynghyd â barn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad am hyn? Hefyd, a rowch chi eglurhad ar ddau fater hollbwysig, sef ymdriniaeth Llywodraeth y Cynulliad â’r gwaith ymchwil i’r driniaeth, a’r adolygiad o ddefnyddio cyffuriau, gan gynnwys cyffuriau gwrthseicotig?

Edwina Hart: I will not comment directly on what anyone said about the UK Government’s strategy on dementia services in England. However, we have our own working group to look at these issues with the voluntary sector, which will hopefully have outcomes that will be generally welcomed in terms of how we take our strategy forward.

Edwina Hart: Nid wyf am roi sylwadau uniongyrchol am yr hyn a ddywedodd unrhyw un am strategaeth Llywodraeth y DU ar wasanaethau demensia yn Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym ein gweithgor ein hunain i ystyried y materion hyn gyda’r sector gwirfoddol, a bydd i hynny, gobeithio, ganlyniadau a gaiff eu croesawu’n gyffredinol o ran y ffordd y byddwn yn hyrwyddo’n strategaeth.

I do not think that it would be prudent for me to comment on drugs regimes, although issues are raised by relevant lobby groups and organisations about the importance that they place on drugs needed to treat dementia. It is a high priority. When you look at the

Ni chredaf y byddai’n ddoeth imi roi sylwadau ynghylch trefniadau cyffuriau, er bod materion yn cael eu codi gan grwpiau lobïo a chyrff perthnasol ynghylch y pwysigrwydd a roddant ar y cyffuriau y mae eu hangen i drin demensia. Mae’n

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number of citizens that are likely to be affected by dementia, and the impact that that will have on service provision across Wales, you will see that we have to be mindful of what more we need to do in this area.

flaenoriaeth uchel. Pan edrychwch ar nifer y dinasyddion y mae demensia’n debygol o effeithio arnynt, a’r effaith a gaiff hynny ar y broses o ddarparu gwasanaethau ledled Cymru, gwelwch ei bod yn rhaid inni gadw mewn cof beth yn fwy y mae angen inni ei wneud yn y maes hwn.

Gareth Jones: Fel y gwyddoch, Weinidog, mae Comisiwn annibynnol y Ddeddf Iechyd Meddwl wedi datgan bod y cyfleuster i’r henoed bregus eu meddwl ym Modnant, Llandudno, yn anaddas i’r diben o ddarparu gofal i gleifion mewnol. A rennwch fy mhryder fod ymddiriedolaeth Conwy a sir Ddinbych wedi gadael i hyn ddigwydd o ganlyniad i ddiffyg buddsoddiad?

Gareth Jones: As you will be aware, Minister, the independent Mental Health Act Commission has stated that the elderly mental infirm facility in Bodnant, Llandudno, is not fit for the purpose of providing in-patient care. Do you share my concern that the Conwy and Denbighshire trust has allowed this to happen as a result of insufficient funding?

A ydych chi hefyd yn rhannu fy siom bod natur argyfyngus y sefyllfa wedi rhwystro ymgynghori gyda gofalwyr a’u teuluoedd? A fyddwch chi’n edrych ar hyn, Weinidog, i weld beth ellir ei ddysgu?

Do you also share my disappointment that the critical nature of the situation has prevented consultation with carers and families? Will you look into this, Minister, to see what lessons can be learned?

2.00 p.m.

Edwina Hart: I had representations on this issue when I visited your constituency recently, Gareth. I was particularly concerned that carers had not been consulted on these issues. I thought that just holding a meeting and expecting people to turn up rather than talking first hand to carers about their requirements was not very good at all. I have spoken to regional officers and told them that I expect carers to be at the heart of discussions about respite requirements. There was no clear understanding there about what facilities would be available and what facilities were required. It is easy to say, ‘We have six beds now, and that’s all we require’. However, when you consider the number of carers now and the increase in the number of patients with dementia, they should be planning services and looking at how many more respite beds they will require.

Edwina Hart: Cefais sylwadau ar y mater hwn pan ymwelais â’ch etholaeth yn ddiweddar, Gareth. Yr oeddwn yn pryderu’n arbennig nad ymgynghorwyd â gofalwyr ar y materion hyn. Nid oeddwn yn teimlo’i bod yn beth da o gwbl cynnal cyfarfod a disgwyl i bobl ddod, yn hytrach na siarad yn uniongyrchol â gofalwyr am eu hangenhenion. Yr wyf wedi siarad â’r swyddogion rhanbarthol, a dywedais wrthynt fy mod yn disgwyl i ofalwyr fod ynghanol y trafodaethau ynglŷn â gofynion seibiant. Nid oedd dim dealltwriaeth glir ynglŷn â pha gyfleusterau a fyddai ar gael a pha gyfleusterau a oedd yn ofynnol. Mae’n hawdd dweud, ‘Mae gennym chwe gwely yn awr, a dyna’i gyd sydd arnom ei angen’. Fodd bynnag, pan ystyriwch nifer y gofalwyr yn awr a’r cynnydd yn nifer y cleifion sydd â demensia, dylent fod yn cynllunio gwasanaethau ac yn ystyried faint yn rhagor o welyau seibiant y bydd arnynt eu hangen.

Therefore, I understand your concerns and I am particularly concerned about the criticism of the way that health matters have been dealt with previously in north Wales. Lessons seem not to have been learned by some individuals in positions to which they have

Felly, yr wyf yn deall eich pryderon, ac yr wyf yn pryderu’n arbennig am y feirniadaeth o’r ffordd yr ymdriniwyd â materion iechyd cyn hyn yn y gogledd. Nid yw’n ymddangos bod gwersi wedi eu dysgu gan rai unigolion mewn swyddi y penodwyd hwy iddynt,

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been appointed regarding the importance of having a proper consultation with communities and people in the front line. Those lessons have not been learned in this instance, and I have made my views clear through my regional director.

ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd ymgynghori’n iawn â chymunedau a phobl yn y rheng flaen. Nid yw’r gwersi hynny wedi eu dysgu yn yr achos hwn, ac yr wyf wedi gwneud fy marn yn glir drwy fy nghyfarwyddwr rhanbarthol.

Jonathan Morgan: While we look forward to the publication of the Assembly Government’s dementia strategy, can the Minister confirm whether it is her intention to ensure that people in Wales get a quicker diagnosis? If we look at the league table for how quickly a diagnosis of dementia is achieved, in Germany, for example, a patient waits nine months, in Italy, 11 months, and in Britain—including Wales—a patient waits an average of 36 months. That is unacceptable and we should be doing whatever we can to reduce the waiting time for a diagnosis of dementia.

Jonathan Morgan: Tra ydym yn edrych ymlaen at gyhoeddi strategaeth demensia Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, a wnaiff y Gweinidog gadarnhau ai ei bwriad yw sicrhau bod pobl yng Nghymru yn cael diagnosis cyflymach? Os edrychwn ar y tabl cynghrair i weld pa mor gyflym y rhoddir diagnosis o demensia, yn yr Almaen, er enghraifft, mae claf yn aros naw mis, yn yr Eidal, 11 mis, ac ym Mhrydain—gan gynnwys Cymru—mae claf yn disgwyl 36 mis ar gyfartaledd. Mae hynny’n annerbyniol a dylem wneud beth bynnag a allwn i leiahu’r amser aros am ddiagnosis o demensia.

Edwina Hart: I hope that that will be one of the key areas of the strategy that is discussed, and it is an issue that we have to grapple with. It is important to get a swift diagnosis so that you can get on with any treatment or put arrangements in place to deal with your condition.

Edwina Hart: Gobeithio y bydd hynny’n un o feysydd allweddol y strategaeth sy’n cael ei thrafod, ac mae’n fater y mae’n rhaid inni fynd i’r afael ag ef. Mae’n bwysig cael diagnosis cyflym fel y gallwch fwrw ymlaen ag unrhyw driniaeth neu sefydlu trefniadau i ddelio â’ch cyflwr.

Ambulance Response Times Amseroedd Ymateb Cerbydau Ambiwlans

Q8 William Graham: Will the Minister outline what steps she is taking to improve ambulance response times in South Wales East? OAQ(3)0879(HSS)

C8 William Graham: A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu pa gamau y mae’n eu cymryd i wella amseroedd ymateb cerbydau ambiwlans yn Nwyrain De Cymru? OAQ(3)0879(HSS)

Edwina Hart: I have taken numerous steps to improve response times in South Wales East, including through additional funding for the provision of vehicles, recent approval of the business case for digital equipment, including the automated vehicle location system, and provision of additional £2 million in revenue for the recruitment of paramedics and control room staff.

Edwina Hart: Yr wyf wedi cymryd nifer o gamau i wella’r amseroedd ymateb yn Nwyrain De Cymru, gan gynnwys sicrhau cyllid ychwanegol i ddarparu cerbydau, cymeradwyo’r achos busnes o blaid cyfarpar digidol yn ddiweddar, gan gynnwys y system awtomataidd i leoli cerbydau, a darparu £2 filiwn yn ychwanegol mewn refeniw ar gyfer recriwtio parafeddygon a staff ystafell reoli.

William Graham: Thank you for your answer, Minister, which provides some reassurance. However, you know that the statistics show that ambulance response times in south-east Wales are truly appalling. In Torfaen, 17.9 per cent of ambulances arrived on the scene within the eight-minute target.

William Graham: Diolch ichi am eich ateb, Weinidog, sy’n rhoi rhywfaint o dawelwch meddwl. Fodd bynnag, gwyddoch fod yr ystadegau’n dangos bod amseroedd ymateb cerbydau ambiwlans yn y de-ddwyrain yn wirioneddol ofnadwy. Yn Nhor-faen, 17.9 y cant o gerbydau ambiwlans a gyrhaeddodd y

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That is a shocking reduction on the previous month’s figure of 38 per cent. I know that you are not complacent in this matter, and I appreciate that the staff are doing their best. However, these figures are prior to the recent poor weather. Can you indicate when my constituents are likely to see some improvement in the ambulance service in south-east Wales?

fan a’r lle o fewn y targed o wyth munud. Mae hynny’n ostyngiad dychrynllyd o’i gymharu â ffigur y mis blaenorol o 38 y cant. Gwn nad ydych yn hunanfodlon ar y mater hwn, ac yr wyf yn gwerthfawrogi bod y staff yn gwneud eu gorau. Fodd bynnag, mae’r rhain yn ffigurau cyn y tywydd gwael yn ddiweddar. A allwch ddweud pryd y mae f’etholwyr yn debygol o weld rhyw welliant yn y gwasanaeth ambiwlans yn y de-ddwyrain?

Edwina Hart: As you know, we had a discussion last week about the difficulties in Powys in Kirsty Williams’s short debate. We all acknowledge the geographical difficulties that areas such as Powys have to deal with. However, that cannot be an issue in south-east Wales, when you consider how close together the towns are, and the quality of the roads for access. To be honest, William, it is difficult trying to find out why these problems are occurring all the time. We continue to have discussions with the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust. The new head of the NHS in Wales, Paul Williams, has made it a key priority to deal with the ambulance trust in order to secure improvements in the service. We are particularly concerned by some of the failures in south-east Wales and cannot see any reason for them. I am also concerned that in south-east Wales services are moved from one area to another to deal with problems in towns such as Newport, which means that other areas—I saw this on a visit with Trish Law—are left out of the equation. It is not satisfactory.

Edwina Hart: Fel y gwyddoch, cawsom drafodaeth yr wythnos diwethaf am yr anawsterau ym Mhowys, yn nadl fer Kirsty Williams. Yr ydym i gyd yn cydnabod yr anawsterau daearyddol y mae ardaloedd fel Powys yn gorfod delio â hwy. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n broblem yn y de-ddwyrain, pan ystyriwch mor agos at ei gilydd yw’r trefi, ac ansawdd y ffyrdd mynediad. A bod yn onest, William, mae’n anodd ceisio gweld pam y mae’r problemau hyn yn digwydd drwy’r amser. Yr ydym yn dal i drafod gydag Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Gwasanaethau Ambiwlans Cymru. Mae pennaeth newydd y GIG yng Nghymru, Paul Williams, wedi gwneud delio â’r ymddiriedolaeth ambiwlans yn flaenoriaeth er mwyn sicrhau gwelliannau yn y gwasanaeth. Yr ydym yn pryderu’n arbennig ynglŷn â rhai o’r methiannau yn y de-ddwyrain, ac ni allaf weld dim rheswm amdanynt. Yr wyf hefyd yn bryderus fod gwasanaethau yn y de-ddwyrain yn cael eu symud o un ardal i’r llall i ddelio â phroblemau mewn trefi fel Casnewydd, sy’n golygu bod ardaloedd eraill—gwelais hyn ar ymweliad gyda Trish Law—yn cael eu gadael allan. Nid yw’n foddhaol.

Mohammad Asghar: Minister, you have already answered part of my question in your response to William Graham. The situation in south-east Wales is serious. I have read reports that part of the problem is due to ambulances queuing to let patients off at hospitals.

Mohammad Asghar: Weinidog, yr ydych eisoes wedi ateb rhan o’m cwestiwn yn eich ymateb i William Graham. Mae’r sefyllfa yn y de-ddwyrain yn ddifrifol. Yr wyf wedi darllen adroddiadau mai rhan o’r broblem yw bod cerbydau ambiwlans yn gorfod aros i ollwng cleifion yn yr ysbytai.

By the main entrance of the Royal Gwent Hospital, there is a zebra crossing and an entrance for public vehicles on the same side, so ambulances are probably in a queue with other vehicles, which is not acceptable. Every minute that patients spend in an ambulance is a minute that we are playing with their lives.

Wrth ymyl y brif fynedfa i Ysbyty Brenhinol Gwent, mae croesfan sebra a mynedfa i gerbydau cyhoeddus ar yr un ochr, felly mae cerbydau ambiwlans yn debygol o fod mewn rhes gyda cherbydau eraill, ac nid yw’n dderbyniol. Mae pob munud pan fydd cleifion mewn ambiwlans yn funud pan ydym

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At the other end of the road, there is a main gate with a bar on it, through which ambulance do not enter. Why does the Royal Gwent Hospital not use that entrance just for ambulances? The same situation may exist in other hospitals. It could be possible to bring in ambulances through a different entrance, saving time and lives.

yn chwarae â’u bywydau. Ymhen draw’r ffordd, mae prif glwyd a bar arni, ac ni fydd cerbydau ambiwlans yn mynd drwyddi. Pam nad yw Ysbyty Brenhinol Gwent yn defnyddio’r fynedfa honno ar gyfer cerbydau ambiwlans yn unig? Efallai fod yr un sefyllfa’n bod mewn ysbytai eraill. Gallai fod yn bosibl dod â cherbydau ambiwlans i mewn drwy fynedfa wahanol, gan arbed amser a bywydau.

Edwina Hart: I will not comment on the logistics of how the Royal Gwent Hospital works. The chief executive of the NHS has written to all the organisations concerned to require an action plan by 27 February that focuses on several specific issues, including the improved management of demand, patient handover—which is the key issue that you talked about—ambulance response times, accident-and-emergency services and discharge planning, because they must all come together. We must acknowledge that improvements need to be made quickly in these areas; it cannot always be mañana in terms of the responses that we receive. They must all work actively together, because, ultimately, you should not say that it is the responsibility of the ambulance service or the trust—it is the responsibility of every part of the health service to work together.

Edwina Hart: Nid wyf am sôn am logisteg y ffordd y mae Ysbyty Brenhinol Gwent yn gweithio. Mae prif weithredwr y GIG wedi ysgrifennu at bob corff dan sylw i ofyn am gynllun gweithredu erbyn 27 Chwefror sy’n canolbwyntio ar amryw o faterion penodol, gan gynnwys rheoli’r galw’n well, trosglwyddo cleifion—sef y mater allweddol y soniech amdano—amseroedd ymateb cerbydau ambiwlans, gwasanaethau damweiniau ac achosion brys, a chynllunio ar gyfer rhyddhau cleifion, oherwydd rhaid iddynt i gyd ddod ynghyd. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod angen gwneud gwelliannau’n gyflym yn y meysydd hyn; ni ellir bodloni ar mañana bob amser o ran yr ymatebion a gawn. Rhaid iddynt i gyd gydweithio’n ddiwyd, oherwydd yn y pen draw ni ddylech ddweud mai cyfrifoldeb y gwasanaeth ambiwlans neu’r ymddiriedolaeth yw hyn—mae’n gyfrifoldeb ar bob rhan o’r gwasanaeth iechyd i weithio gyda’i gilydd.

Emergency Mental Health Cases Achosion Iechyd Meddwl Brys

Q9 Kirsty Williams: Will the Minister make a statement on out-of-hours provision for emergency mental health cases in Wales? OAQ(3)0883(HSS)

C9 Kirsty Williams: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y ddarpariaeth y tu allan i oriau ar gyfer achosion iechyd meddwl brys yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0883(HSS)

Edwina Hart: A local 24 hours a day emergency on-call system, providing medical assessment of all emergencies—primary care or the criminal justice sector—is available across Wales, covering patients requiring detention or admission to hospital under the Mental Health Act 1983. The community advice and listening line is also available 24 hours a day.

Edwina Hart: Mae system leol frys o fod ar alwad, sy’n darparu asesiad meddygol o bob achos argyfwng—gofal sylfaenol neu’r sector cyfiawnder troseddol—ar gael 24 awr y dydd ar draws Cymru, i gwmpasu cleifion y mae angen eu cadw neu eu derbyn i’r ysbyty o dan Ddeddf Iechyd Meddwl 1983. Mae’r llinell gymunedol cynghori a gwrando hefyd ar gael 24 awr y dydd.

Kirsty Williams: Carers of individuals with mental health issues in south Powys continually raise with me the issue of a lack of emergency care in the community.

Kirsty Williams: Mae gofalwyr unigolion sydd â phroblemau iechyd meddwl yn ne Powys yn codi gyda mi’n barhaus fater diffyg gofal brys yn y gymuned. Rhaid i deuluoedd

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Families and individuals have to choose between staying at home without support or entering an in-patient setting. What they would like is short-term emergency care beds where people can go in a crisis and receive support until they are feeling well again, but not on an in-patient basis. What can you do to help Powys to achieve such services, which should surely make up part of any modern mental health service in this country?

ac unigolion ddewis rhwng aros gartref heb gymorth ynteu fynd i sefydliad ar gyfer cleifion mewnol. Yr hyn y byddent yn ei hoffi yw gwelyau gofal brys dros gyfnod byr lle gall pobl fynd mewn argyfwng a chael cymorth nes byddant yn teimlo’n iawn eto, ond nid fel cleifion mewnol. Beth allwch chi ei wneud i helpu Powys i sicrhau gwasanaethau o’r fath, a ddylai, ‘does bosibl, fod yn rhan o unrhyw wasanaeth iechyd meddwl modern yn y wlad hon?

Edwina Hart: I think that Powys Local Health Board accepts that its out-of-hours service is not as robust as that offered elsewhere, and it now has a detailed three-year mental health plan, which has received executive approval, to try to bring these strands of work together. The main priority is 24-hour support and that needs to be addressed in this particular area. Powys has itself recognised this, so we can hope that there will be improvements, but you are right that it must be of enormous concern to your constituents in south Powys.

Edwina Hart: Credaf fod Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Powys yn derbyn nad yw ei wasanaeth y tu allan i oriau cyn gryfed ag a gynigir mewn mannau eraill, ac mae ganddo erbyn hyn gynllun iechyd meddwl manwl am dair blynedd sydd wedi ei gymeradwyo gan y weithrediaeth, i geisio dod â’r llinynnau gwaith hyn ynghyd. Y brif flaenoriaeth yw cymorth 24 awr ac mae angen rhoi sylw i hynny yn yr ardal neilltuol hon. Mae Powys ei hun wedi cydnabod hyn, felly, gallwn obeithio y bydd gwelliannau. Ond yr ydych yn iawn fod hyn, mae’n rhaid, yn peri pryder enfawr i’ch etholwyr yn ne Powys.

Janet Ryder: North Warwickshire and District Doctors-On-Call provide out-of-hours services for Flintshire and Wrexham, and has trouble getting psychiatric specialists to deal with emergency cases. In some cases, that means that triage nurses and GPs are dealing with patients who are threatening suicide. Clinical staff say that they are finding that much of the out-of-hours service goes on mental health care. What are you doing to ensure that we have psychiatric specialists available around the clock?

Janet Ryder: Mae Meddygon Ar Alwad yng Ngogledd Swydd Warwick a’r Cylch yn darparu gwasanaethau y tu allan i oriau i sir y Fflint a Wrecsam, ac y maent yn cael anhawster i gael arbenigwyr seiciatrig i ddelio ag achosion brys. Mewn rhai achosion, golyga hynny fod nyrsys brysbennu a meddygon teulu yn delio â chleifion sy’n bygwth hunanladdiad. Dywed staff clinigol eu bod yn gweld bod llawer o’r gwasanaeth y tu allan i oriau yn mynd ar ofal iechyd meddwl. Beth yr ydych yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod gennym arbenigwyr seiciatrig ar gael o fore tan nos?

Edwina Hart: Thank you for that question. In light of the concerns that you have raised about that specific area, I am happy to ask officials to look specifically at the cases that you have raised, because this is a big and an increasing problem. People now expect this type of service and need to access it quickly, so I am happy to have further detailed work done on that.

Edwina Hart: Diolch ichi am y cwestiwn hwnnw. I ymateb i’r pryderon yr ydych wedi’u codi am yr ardal neilltuol honno, yr wyf yn hapus gofyn i’r swyddogion edrych yn benodol ar yr achosion a godwyd gennych, oherwydd mae hon yn broblem fawr a chynyddol. Mae pobl yn disgwyl y math hwn o wasanaeth erbyn hyn, ac mae angen iddynt allu ei gael yn gyflym, felly yr wyf yn hapus cael rhagor o waith manwl wedi’i wneud ar hynny.

Jonathan Morgan: Minister, you are Jonathan Morgan: Weinidog, yr ydych ar

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currently the middle of a review of low and medium secure units in Wales, and those units have a role to play in looking after the more vulnerable or difficult cases involving people who suffer from a mental illness. One of my concerns is that there could well be—we do not have the figures and I do not think that you have them either—large numbers of people who being looked after out-of-country. I have been told of one family, for example, that is travelling some distance from south Wales to Norwich to visit a family member in a medium secure unit. Will you ensure that that review looks at future provision so that more families and more young people, and adults in particular, who being looked after in these units can be looked after more closely to home?

hyn o bryd ar ganol adolygiad o unedau diogelwch isel a chanolig yng Nghymru, ac mae gan yr unedau hynny ran wrth ofalu am yr achosion mwyaf bregus neu anodd yn ymwneud â phobl sydd â salwch meddwl. Un o’m pryderon yw y gallai nifer fawr o bobl—nid yw’r ffigurau gennym ac ni chredaf eu bod gennych chi ychwaith—sy’n cael gofal y tu allan i’r wlad. Dywedwyd wrthyf am un teulu, er enghraifft, sy’n teithio gryn bellter o dde Cymru i Norwich i ymweld ag aelod o’r teulu mewn uned diogelwch canolig. A wnewch chi sicrhau bod yr adolygiad hwnnw’n edrych ar y ddarpariaeth i’r dyfodol fel y gellir gofalu am fwy o deuluoedd a mwy o bobl ifanc, ac oedolion yn arbennig, sy’n cael gofal yn yr unedau hyn yn nes i’w cartref?

Edwina Hart: That is absolutely essential for a whole range of services that we deliver. We should not expect people to travel hundreds of miles; we should be able to provide services closer to home, as sustainably as we can. I will be pleased to ask my officials to see whether we can garner any information on this, because these placements will be paid for, so there must be a payment trail. I shall see what work I can dig out on that, because it will be a matter of concern for Members across the Chamber.

Edwina Hart: Mae hynny’n gwbl hanfodol ar gyfer ystod eang o wasanaethau yr ydym yn eu darparu. Ni ddylem ddisgwyl i bobl deithio cannoedd o filltiroedd; dylem allu darparu gwasanaethau’n nes i’r cartref, mor gynaliadwy ag y medrwn. Byddaf yn falch gofyn i’m swyddogion weld a allwn gasglu unrhyw wybodaeth am hyn, oherwydd telir am y lleoliadau hyn, felly rhaid bod trywydd talu. Edrychaf i weld pa waith y gallaf ddod o hyd iddo ar hynny, oherwydd bydd yn fater sy’n peri pryder i Aelodau ar draws y Siambr.

2.10 p.m.

Cwestiynau i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog Dros yr Economi a ThrafnidiaethQuestions to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport

Rail Travel Teithio ar y Rheilffyrdd

Q1 Jeff Cuthbert: Will the Minister make a statement on support for rail travel in Caerphilly? OAQ(3)0862(ECT)

C1 Jeff Cuthbert: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am gefnogaeth ar gyfer teithio ar reilffyrdd yng Nghaerffili? OAQ(3)0862(ECT)

The Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Rail improvements for Caerphilly, specifically the Rhymney valley line, are identified as a priority area in my forward rail programme. These include additional services as well as a new station at Energlyn.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Mae gwelliannau rheilffordd ar gyfer Caerffili, a llinell cwm Rhymni yn benodol, wedi’u dynodi fel maes blaenoriaeth yn fy mlaenraglen rheilffyrdd. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys gwasanaethau ychwanegol yn ogystal ag adeiladu gorsaf newydd yn Energlyn.

Jeff Cuthbert: Thank you for that answer, Jeff Cuthbert: Diolch ichi am yr ateb

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Minister. On this occasion, I will not talk to you about the importance of longer trains on the Caerphilly Rhymney valley line. I would like to ask you instead about the possibility of new passenger services on the Taff-Bargoed line, particularly between Bedlinog in my colleague Huw Lewis’s constituency and Ystrad Mynach in mine. That line is currently well used for the transporting of coal from the Ffos-y-Fran development in Merthyr and further pressures may be put on that line, which could lead to the dualling of the line or more passing loops. Do you agree that it would be sensible, if that is being planned, to also look at the possibility of installing passenger services between Bedlinog and Ystrad Mynach?

hwnnw, Weinidog. Y tro hwn nid wyf am sôn wrthych am bwysigrwydd trenau hirach ar linell cwm Rhymni, Caerffili. Hoffwn eich holi yn hytrach am bosibilrwydd cael gwasanaethau newydd i deithwyr ar linell Taf-Bargod, yn arbennig rhwng Bedlinog yn etholaeth fy nghyd-Aelod Huw Lewis ac Ystrad Mynach yn fy etholaeth i. Caiff y llinell honno ei defnyddio’n dda ar hyn o bryd i gludo glo o ddatblygiad Ffos-y-Frân ym Merthyr, a gall y bydd pwysau pellach ar y llinell honno, a allai olygu deuoli’r llinell neu ddarparu mwy o ddolennau pasio. A ydych yn cytuno y byddai’n synhwyrol, os yw hynny’n cael ei gynllunio, edrych hefyd ar bosibilrwydd sefydlu gwasanaethau i deithwyr rhwng Bedlinog ac Ystrad Mynach?

The Deputy First Minister: I want to look at all opportunities to expand passenger services. The forward rail programme identifies several areas where we hope to introduce them over the next few years. The particular proposal that you have in mind is not part of that programme. Therefore, there is currently no budget allocation for those extra services. However, over time, as we make more and more rail infrastructure improvements, we will be looking to see how much further we can take services. Your proposal will be looked at in that context.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr wyf am edrych ar bob cyfle i ehangu’r gwasanaethau i deithwyr. Mae’r flaenraglen rheilffyrdd yn nodi nifer o ardaloedd lle’r ydym yn gobeithio’u cyflwyno dros y blynyddoedd nesaf. Nid yw’r cynnig penodol sydd gennych mewn golwg yn rhan o’r rhaglen honno. Felly, nid oes dyraniad yn y gyllideb ar hyn o bryd ar gyfer y gwasanaethau ychwanegol hynny. Fodd bynnag, gydag amser, wrth inni wneud mwy a mwy o welliannau i’r seilwaith rheilffyrdd, byddwn yn edrych i weld i ba faint ymhellach y gallwn fynd â gwasanaethau. Byddwn yn edrych ar eich cynnig chi yn y cyd-destun hwnnw.

William Graham: Deputy First Minister, I ask you to be slightly proactive for once in terms of the Ystrad Fawr Local General Hospital, construction of which, as you know, has just begun. It will be important to have a co-ordinated link between buses and rail to enable patients to reach the hospital. I ask for your assurance on that.

William Graham: Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, gofynnaf ichi fod ychydig yn rhagweithiol am unwaith yng nghyswllt Ysbyty Cyffredinol Lleol Ystrad Fawr. Mae’r gwaith o’i adeiladu, fel y gwyddoch, newydd ddechrau. Bydd yn bwysig cael cyswllt cydlynol rhwng bysiau a threnau i alluogi cleifion i gyrraedd yr ysbyty. Gofynnaf ichi am y sicrwydd hwnnw.

The Deputy First Minister: The proposal needs to come to me, initially, from the local authority. If that proposal is put to me, I will consider it in accordance with the usual procedure and the other priorities that we may have.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Mae angen i’r cynnig ddod ataf, yn gyntaf, oddi wrth yr awdurdod lleol. Os cyflwynir y cynnig hwnnw imi, byddaf yn ei ystyried yn unol â’r drefn arferol a’r blaenoriaethau eraill a all fod gennym.

Mohammad Asghar: It is good news that there are positive developments planned for railways in south-east Wales. Will you

Mohammad Asghar: Mae’n newyddion da fod datblygiadau cadarnhaol ar y gweill ar gyfer rheilffyrdd yn y de-ddwyrain. A rowch

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provide an update on when the new station at Energlyn is likely to be built?

chi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf inni pryd y mae’r orsaf newydd yn Energlyn yn debygol o gael ei hadeiladu?

The Deputy First Minister: The proposal is referred to in our forward programme. It is part of the programme that we have outlined and has been approved in principle. The proposal within our programme is to look to building the new station in the financial year 2010-11. The question then, having built the station, is whether there will be an opportunity for extra services to be introduced. I am working with my team to see how we could release funds in order to develop those services.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Cyfeirir at y cynnig yn ein blaenraglen. Mae’n rhan o’r rhaglen yr ydym wedi’i hamlinellu ac mae wedi ei chymeradwyo mewn egwyddor. Y cynnig yn ein rhaglen yw ystyried adeiladu’r orsaf newydd ym mlwyddyn ariannol 2010-11. Y cwestiwn wedyn, ar ôl adeiladu’r orsaf, yw a fydd cyfle i ddarparu gwasanaethau ychwanegol. Yr wyf yn gweithio gyda fy nhîm i weld sut y gallem ryddhau cyllid i ddatblygu’r gwasanaethau hynny.

The Economic Crisis Yr Argyfwng Economaidd

Q2 David Melding: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Assembly Government’s response to the economic crisis? OAQ(3)0853(ECT)

C2 David Melding: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ymateb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i’r argyfwng economaidd? OAQ(3)0853(ECT)

The Deputy First Minister: Through the economic summits, we have introduced targeted and practical measures to address the immediate impacts of the global economic downturn and to create the foundations upon which we can build for the recovery. The next economic summit will be held in north Wales on 6 February.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Drwy’r uwchgynadleddau ar yr economi, yr ydym wedi cyflwyno mesurau ymarferol wedi’u targedu fel y gallwn fynd i’r afael ag effeithiau uniongyrchol y dirywiad economaidd byd-eang a chreu sylfeini y gallwn adeiladu arnynt i’n cynorthwyo ar gyfer yr adferiad. Cynhelir yr uwchgynhadledd nesaf ar yr economi yn y gogledd ar 6 Chwefror.

David Melding: Minister, you will have heard the announcement today that Panasonic is to cut 15,000 jobs worldwide, half of them outside Japan. We are a major recipient of jobs from Panasonic, with 1,000 employed in Cardiff, including at the European research and development base, and 500 in Newport. There is every possibility that all of those jobs will be preserved, and let us hope that that is what happens. However, do you agree that you have been dilatory in not bringing forward a manufacturing strategy? When announcements such as this are made, it shows the weakness of your position.

David Melding: Weinidog, byddwch wedi clywed y cyhoeddiad heddiw fod Panasonic yn mynd i gwtogi 15,000 o swyddi ar hyd y byd, hanner y rheini y tu allan i Japan. Yr ydym yn cael llawer iawn o swyddi oddi wrth Panasonic, ac mae 1,000 yn cael eu cyflogi yng Nghaerdydd, gan gynnwys y ganolfan ymchwil a datblygu Ewropeaidd, a 500 yng Nghasnewydd. Mae pob posibilrwydd y caiff y swyddi hynny i gyd eu cadw, a gadewch inni obeithio mai dyna a fydd yn digwydd. Fodd bynnag, a ydych yn cytuno ichi fod yn araf yn peidio â chyflwyno strategaeth gweithgynhyrchu? Pan wneir cyhoeddiadau fel hwn, mae’n dangos gwendid eich sefyllfa.

The Deputy First Minister: I am not sure that a manufacturing strategy in itself does anything practical to try to deal with the issues that you have highlighted. Rather than

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Nid wyf yn siŵr a yw strategaeth gweithgynhyrchu ohoni’i hun yn gwneud dim byd ymarferol i geisio delio â’r problemau yr ydych wedi tynnu

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talk about the need for another strategy, we should congratulate the Government on taking prompt, efficient and swift action to address the impact of the downturn. As you will know, David, at the last summit, we announced that capital projects would be brought forward. We have also introduced the ProAct scheme. We have brought forward the payment of bills. We are also meeting the European Commission to talk about structural funds and increasing the intervention rates. We have made an announcement on apprenticeships. That is the kind of action that the people of Wales want, not another strategy.

sylw atynt. Yn hytrach na sôn bod angen strategaeth arall, dylem longyfarch y Llywodraeth ar weithredu’n ddi-oed, yn effeithlon ac yn gyflym i fynd i’r afael ag effaith y dirywiad. Fel y gwyddoch, David, cyhoeddasom yn yr uwchgynhadledd ddiwethaf y byddai prosiectau cyfalaf yn cel eu symud ymlaen. Yr ydym hefyd wedi cyflwyno’r cynllun ProAct. Yr ydym wedi cyflwyno’r cynllun talu biliau. Yr ydym hefyd yn cwrdd â’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd i drafod cronfeydd strwythurol a chodi’r cyfraddau ymyrryd. Yr ydym wedi gwneud cyhoeddiad ar brentisiaethau. Dyna’r math o weithredu y mae ar bobl Cymru ei eisiau, nid strategaeth arall.

David Melding: I am sure that the people of Wales will note that you do not feel that a comprehensive and strategic approach is always necessary to weather the extraordinary economic circumstances in which we now find ourselves. Do you reflect the despair of the First Minister, who said that he had no idea how long the recession would last? Even the more pessimistic international commentators, such as the International Monetary Fund, now believe that the recession is likely to go into 2010, then stabilise, and then we will see some slow growth. Do you not agree that the rational thing for your Government to do would be to assume that that is the likely scenario and to get ahead with the strategies, so that, when the recovery starts in 12 or 18 months, you will have some idea about where you want Wales to go?

David Melding: Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd pobl Cymru yn sylwi nad ydych yn teimlo bod angen dull strategol a chynhwysfawr bob amser i ymdopi â’r amgylchiadau economaidd eithriadol sy’n ein hwynebu ar hyn o bryd. A ydych chi mor ddiobaith â’r Prif Weinidog, a ddywedodd nad oedd ganddo syniad am faint y byddai’r dirwasgiad yn para? Mae hyd yn oed y sylwebyddion rhyngwladol pesimistaidd, megis y Gronfa Arian Gydwladol, bellach yn credu bod y dirwasgiad yn debygol o bara tan 2010, wedyn yn sefydlogi, ac yna y gwelwn ychydig dwf araf. Oni chytunwch mai’r peth rhesymegol i’ch Llywodraeth ei wneud fyddai rhagdybio mai dyna yw’r sefyllfa debygol a bwrw ymlaen â’r strategaethau. Felly, pan fydd yr adferiad yn cychwyn ymhen 12 neu 18 mis, bydd gennych ryw syniad i ba gyfeiriad yr ydych yn dymuno i Gymru fynd?

The Deputy First Minister: I wish that there was something in your question about your plan for what we should do. The only thing that I have heard from the Conservative Party is that it wants me to adopt a strategy. Which actions do you think I should be undertaking? Allow me to make clear what we think: it is important that we protect our skills base. That is essential for us to meet these targets as we go forward. What we have done is put substantial sums of money into the ReAct and ProAct schemes and into new apprenticeship schemes. That is the kind of action that the people of Wales want, not talk about strategies.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Byddai’n dda gennyf petai rhywbeth yn eich cwestiwn ynghylch eich cynllun chi ar gyfer yr hyn y dylem ei wneud. Yr unig beth yr wyf wedi’i glywed gan y Blaid Geidwadol yw bod arni eisiau imi fabwysiadu strategaeth. Pa gamau yr ydych chi’n credu y dylwn eu cymryd? Gadewch imi wneud yn glir ein safbwynt ni: mae’n bwysig inni ddiogelu ein sylfaen sgiliau. Mae hynny’n hanfodol er mwyn cyrraedd y targedau hyn wrth inni symud ymlaen. Yr hyn yr ydym wedi’i wneud yw buddsoddi symiau sylweddol yn y cynlluniau ReAct a ProAct ac mewn cynlluniau prentisiaeth newydd. Dyna’r math o weithredu y mae ar bobl Cymru ei eisiau, nid

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siarad am strategaethau.

Lesley Griffiths: As you have just stated, this week, we will see the fourth all-Wales economic summit to be held since last October. From the first summit, when the embryonic ProAct scheme was first mooted, with the aim of helping to save Welsh businesses and jobs in all parts of Wales, it took just a matter of weeks to get it up and running. Do you agree that, through that scheme, along with others such as ReAct, the single investment fund, the small single investment fund, and www.sell2wales.com, the Government is doing all that it can to support the Welsh economy under these extremely difficult circumstances globally?

Lesley Griffiths: Fel yr ydych newydd ei ddweud, yr wythnos hon cynhelir y bedwaredd uwchgynhadledd economaidd ar gyfer Cymru gyfan ers mis Hydref y llynedd. Ar ôl yr uwchgynhadledd gyntaf, pan drafodwyd cynllun cychwynnol ProAct am y tro cynaf gyda’r nod o helpu achub busnesau Cymru a swyddi ym mhob rhan o Gymru, ni chymerodd ond ychydig wythnosau i gael y cynllun ar ei draed. A gytunwch fod y Llywodraeth, drwy’r cynllun hwnnw ynghyd â chynlluniau eraill megis ReAct, y gronfa fuddsoddi sengl, y gronfa fuddsoddi sengl fechan a www.gwerthwchigymru.com, yn gwneud popeth a all i gefnogi economi Cymru dan yr amgylchiadau eithriadol anodd byd-eang hyn?

The Deputy First Minister: It is important to recognise that ReAct and ProAct are tailored, made-in-Wales schemes, and we feel that they address some of the underlying problems that we have in our economy. During the last recession, there was such a reduction in our skills base that we were unable to meet some of the demands and challenges of the upturn when it came. What we want to do is protect our skills base as much as possible so that, when the upturn comes, we have the skills to take advantage of it. We want Wales to be placed at the forefront of demand when the upturn comes.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Mae’n bwysig sylweddoli bod ReAct a ProAct yn gynlluniau wedi ei teilwra a’u gwneud yng Nghymru, a theimlwn eu bod yn mynd i’r afael â rhai o’r problemau sylfaenol sydd gennym yn ein heconomi. Yn ystod y dirwasgiad diwethaf, cafwyd cymaint o leihad yn ein sylfaen sgiliau fel na allem ymateb i rai o ofynion a heriau’r cynnydd pan ddaeth. Yr hyn y mae arnom eisiau ei wneud yw diogelu ein sylfaen sgiliau gymaint â phosibl, fel y bydd gennym y sgiliau, pan ddaw’r cynnydd, i fanteisio arno. Mae arnom eisiau i Gymru fod ar flaen y gad pan ddaw’r cynnydd.

Jenny Randerson: You said in your last sentence that we need to be placed at the forefront when the upturn comes. Do you not share my concern that the strong likelihood of job losses at Panasonic will hit the very sector that we should be encouraging and developing for the future? Do you not share my concern that we, as a nation, have not yet developed a strategy to encourage and make much more secure those niche industries that are at the forefront of technological development, which provide highly paid and highly skilled jobs?

Jenny Randerson: Dywedasoch yn eich brawddeg olaf fod angen inni fod ar flaen y gad pan ddaw’r cynnydd. Onid ydych yn pryderu fel finnau fod y swyddi a gollir yn Panasonic yn debygol iawn o daro’r union sector y dylem fod yn ei annog a’i ddatblygu ar gyfer y dyfodol? Onid ydych yn pryderu fel finnau nad ydym, fel cenedl, eto wedi datblygu strategaeth i annog a diogelu lawer yn well y diwydiannau arbenigol hynny sy’n arwain y ffordd ym maes datblygu technolegol, ac sy’n darparu swyddi crefftus iawn sy’n talu’n dda iawn?

The Deputy First Minister: No, I do not accept that point, because at the forefront of the Government’s policy is the need to have more research and development capacity to commercialise research. We are working

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Na, nid wyf yn derbyn y pwynt hwnnw, oherwydd y mae’r angen am fwy o gapasiti ymchwil a datblygu i fasnacheiddio ymchwil wrth wraidd polisi’r Llywodraeth. Yr ydym yn gweithio’n galed

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very hard to implement the proposals that came forward and the action plan that we have introduced to action the Gibson report. I accept that, in going forward, the Welsh economy needs to capture more research and development capacity and to commercialise it, so that we have more spin-off companies from our universities and elsewhere. I accept that that is the challenge, but this Government is well placed to meet that challenge.

iawn i roi ar waith y cynigion a ddaeth gerbron a’r cynllun gweithredu yr ydym wedi’i gyflwyno i weithredu adroddiad Gibson. Derbyniaf fod angen i economi Cymru, wrth symud yn ei blaen, sicrhau mwy o gapasiti ymchwil a datblygu a’i fasnacheiddio, fel y bydd gennym fwy o gwmnïau yn deillio o’n prifysgolion ac o fannau eraill. Derbyniaf mai dyna yw’r her, ond mae’r Llywodraeth hon mewn sefyllfa dda i ymateb i’r her honno.

2.20 p.m.

Jenny Randerson: Deputy First Minister, may we deal with the specifics of the Panasonic case? Can you tell us what contact you have had with the company, either today or before today? Can you give us any further information on how you are working with the company? It will have come as no surprise to people who have been observing the state of the global markets generally and applying the lessons learned to Wales that this highly valued flagship company—an incomer in the 1980s that has been so loyal to Wales—is at risk. That will not have come as a surprise, Deputy First Minister. What work have you and your officials done with the company to alleviate any pressures on it?

Jenny Randerson: Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, a gawn ni ddelio â manylion achos Panasonic? A allwch ddweud wrthym pa gyswllt a fu rhyngoch a’r cwmni, naill ai heddiw neu cyn heddiw? A allwch roi unrhyw wybodaeth arall inni sut yr ydych yn gweithio gyda’r cwmni? Ni fydd yn peri syndod i bobl a fu’n arsylwi ar gyflwr y marchnadoedd byd-eang yn gyffredinol, ac yn rhoi’r gwersi a ddysgwyd ar waith yng Nghymru, fod y cwmni blaengar uchel ei werth hwn—a ddaeth yma yn yr 1980au ac sydd wedi bod mor ffyddlon i Gymru—mewn perygl. Ni fydd hynny wedi peri synod, Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog. Pa waith yr ydych chi a’ch swyddogion wedi’i wneud gyda’r cwmni i leddfu unrhyw bwysau sydd arno?

The Deputy First Minister: Panasonic valued and still values its relationship with Wales. I know, because I met company representatives only a few months ago, during my visit to Japan. I also appreciate that the company has invested in research and development as well. I am not in a position to respond directly to the point that you have made today, but I will make Members aware of any response that we need to make as a Government, and I will make that letter available to all by publishing it in the Library.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr oedd Panasonic yn trysori ei berthynas â Chymru, ac mae’n dal i wneud hynny. Gwn hynny, oherwydd cyfarfûm â chynrychiolwyr y cwmni ychydig fisoedd yn ôl yn ystod fy ymweliad â Japan. Yr wyf hefyd yn sylweddoli bod y cwmni wedi buddsoddi mewn gwaith ymchwil a datblygu yn ogystal. Nid wyf mewn sefyllfa i ymateb yn uniongyrchol i’r pwynt yr ydych wedi’i wneud heddiw, ond byddaf yn rhoi gwybod i Aelodau am unrhyw ymateb y mae angen inni ei wneud fel Llywodraeth, a byddaf yn darparu’r hwnnw i bawb drwy ei gyhoeddi yn y Llyfrgell.

Gareth Jones: Yn gwbl groes i’r negyddiaeth a glywsom gan y Torïaid yn gynharach, yr wyf yn falch o gael dweud bod ymateb Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un i’r dirwasgiad economaidd byd-eang wedi ennill clod o sawl cyfeiriad. Yn wyneb ein cyllideb

Gareth Jones: In complete contrast to the negativity we heard from the Tories earlier, I am pleased to be able to say that the One Wales Government response to the global economic recession has received plaudits from many quarters. Given our limited

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a’n pwerau cyfyngedig, ni ddylid diystyru’r hyn a gyflawnwyd hyd yma. A wnewch chi, Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, amlinellu manteision posibl y prosiect Rhwydweithiau Menter newydd ar gyfer busnesau yn etholaeth Aberconwy?

powers and budget, we should not underestimate what has already been achieved. Will you, Deputy First Minister, outline the possible advantages of the new Enterprise Networks project for businesses in the constituency of Aberconwy?

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Cefais y fraint o gyhoeddi’r cynllun hwnnw pan oeddwn yn y gogledd, yn Llandudno, a rhan o’i fwriad yw sicrhau bod cwmnïau bach mewn sefyllfa i ennill cyfran well o’r farchnad. Y cyngor a gawsom gan sawl arbenigwr yw y bydd cwmnïau bach mewn sefyllfa well na chwmnïau mawr i’n tynnu ni allan o’r dirwasgiad. Wrth gwrs, gan fod cynifer o gwmnïau bach yng Nghymru, dylem allu elwa ar hynny. Bydd y gronfa honno’n helpu cwmnïau i fod yn fwy cystadleuol o lawer yn etholaeth Aberconwy, yn ogystal ag etholaethau eraill Cymru.

The Deputy First Minister: I had the privilege of announcing that scheme in north Wales, in Llandudno, and part of its purpose is to ensure that small companies are in a position to secure a larger portion of the market. The advice we have had from many experts is that small companies will be in a better position than large companies to pull us out of the recession. Of course, as there are so many small companies in Wales, we should benefit from that. That fund will assist companies to be far more competitive in the constituency of Aberconwy, as well as other constituencies in Wales.

Angela Burns: Jobs are hard to come by and, on Monday, in Pembrokeshire, a company called Preseli Construction Ltd had to shut its doors with the loss of 70 jobs. It will also affect a further 20 sub-contractors who depend on it. The reason it had to shut its doors was because its bank turned around and said that it no longer wished to support companies in the construction and building industry and therefore wanted to withdraw the company’s £350,000 overdraft facility with immediate effect. Preseli Construction tried to negotiate paying it back over a couple of months, but the bank was not having any of it. That is one company.

Angela Burns: Mae’n anodd cael gafael ar swyddi, a dydd Llun yn sir Benfro bu’n rhaid i gwmni o’r enw Preseli Construction Cyf gau ei ddrysau, a 70 o swyddi’n cael eu colli. Bydd yn effeithio hefyd ar 20 o isgontractwyr eraill sy’n dibynnu arno. Bu’n rhaid iddo gau ei ddrysau am fod ei fanc wedi dweud nad oedd yn dymuno cefnogi cwmnïau yn y diwydiant adeiladu ac adeiladwaith mwyach, a’i fod felly am ddileu cyfleuster gorddrafft y cwmni o £350,000, a hynny ar unwaith. Ceisiodd Preseli Construction negodi ei ad-dalu dros ychydig fisoedd, ond yr oedd y banc yn gwrthod yn llwyr. Dyna un cwmni.

Another company in my constituency, which I am not at liberty to name this afternoon, employs more than 100 people and has exactly the same problem, so those jobs are also in jeopardy. There is also another company that employs 25 people that is in the same position. That is more than 250 people who all work in Pembroke or Pembroke Dock. There is one common denominator and that is the bank: HSBC. In my opinion, it is just using the credit crisis as an opportunity to rationalise its books. It has not been affected by the sub-prime market in the same way as other banks, it is fairly fireproof, and it still has an excellent rating with Standard and Poor’s.

Mae cwmni arall yn fy etholaeth—nad oes gennyf hawl i’w enwi y prynhawn yma—yn cyflogi dros 100 o bobl, ac mae ganddo’r un broblem yn union. Felly, mae’r swyddi hynny hefyd mewn perygl. Mae cwmni arall sy’n cyflogi 25 o bobl hefyd yn yr un sefyllfa. Dyna ichi dros 250 o bobl sydd i gyd yn gweithio ym Mhenfro neu yn Noc Penfro. Mae yna un ffactor cyffredinol, a hwnnw yw’r banc: HSBC. Yn fy marn i, mae’n defnyddio’r argyfwng credyd fel cyfle i resymoli ei lyfrau. Nid yw’r farchnad eilaidd wedi effeithio arno fel y mae wedi effeithio ar fanciau eraill—mae’n gymharol ddiogel, ac mae ganddo o hyd gyfradd ardderchog gyda Standard and Poor’s.

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I will tell you exactly what I would like you to do, Deputy First Minister: ask the Wales leader of HSBC to come to your office to have a meeting with you. I would be delighted to attend such a meeting. I have asked the bank for a meeting myself, but it will not even bother to return my telephone calls—I cannot get through its call centres. People’s jobs are being lost. I know that you are holding economic summits and that everyone is concerned about this issue, but these banks are riding roughshod over ordinary people who will find it exceptionally difficult to get another job. This affects about 250 jobs in Pembrokeshire that will be pretty impossible to replace in the next few years. I urge you to call that bank in to see you, and I would be delighted to provide you with all necessary information to enable you to do that. Its arrogance is beyond belief.

Mi ddywedaf wrthych yn union beth yr hoffwn ichi ei wneud, Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog: gofyn i arweinydd HSBC yng Nghymru ddod i’ch swyddfa i gael cyfarfod gyda chi. Byddai’n bleser gennyf fod yn bresennol mewn cyfarfod felly. Yr wyf wedi gofyn am gyfarfod gyda’r banc fy hun, ond nid yw hyd yn oed yn trafferthu dychwelyd fy ngalwadau ffôn—ni allaf fynd ymhellach na’i ganolfannau galwadau. Mae pobl yn colli eu swyddi. Gwn eich bod yn cynnal uwchgynadleddau economaidd a bod pawb yn pryderu am y mater hwn, ond mae’r banciau hyn yn ddidostur wrth bobl gyffredin, a fydd yn ei chael yn anodd iawn cael swydd arall. Mae hyn yn effeithio ar oddeutu 250 o swyddi yn sir Benfro, swyddi y bydd yn bron yn amhosibl cael rhai yn eu lle yn y blynyddoedd nesaf. Yr wyf yn eich annog i ofyn i’r banc hwnnw ddod i’ch gweld, a byddwn wrth fy modd rhoi ichi’r holl wybodaeth angenrheidiol i’ch galluogi i wneud hynny. Mae haerllugrwydd y banc y tu hwnt i bob rheswm.

The Deputy First Minister: Thank you for your question and for the passion with which you expressed the feelings of your constituents, which is commendable. We were extremely disappointed to hear of the difficulties experienced by Preseli Construction Ltd. As you said, the construction industry has been particularly affected by the global economic downturn. We have measures in place and we have brought forward capital projects to assist the sector, but I understand your point that one of the major problems facing such companies and others is the lack of liquidity. That is a major drawback. We have had a dialogue with the banks in Wales to try to get them to lend more. It is important that we continue that dialogue, and I will draw your comments to the attention of the particular bank that you mentioned. If we feel that its response is not sufficient, we will consider your request to hold a meeting.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Diolch ichi am eich cwestiwn ac am eich angerdd wrth fynegi teimladau eich etholwyr—mae hynny i’w ganmol. Yr oeddem yn hynod siomedig clywed am drafferthion Preseli Construction Cyf. Fel y dywedasoch, mae’r dirywiad economaidd byd-eang wedi effeithio’n sylweddol ar y diwydiant adeiladwaith. Mae gennym fesurau ar waith, ac yr ydym wedi cyflwyno prosiectau cyfalaf i gynorthwyo’r sector, ond deallaf eich pwynt mai diffyg hylifedd yw un o’r problemau mwyaf sy’n wynebu cwmnïau o’r fath a chwmnïau eraill. Mae hynny’n rhwystr enfawr. Yr ydym wedi cael deialog gyda’r banciau yng Nghymru i geisio’u cael i roi benthyg mwy. Mae’n bwysig inni barhau’r ddeialog honno, a byddaf yn dod â’ch sylwadau i sylw’r banc penodol y soniech amdano. Os byddwn yn teimlo nad yw ei ateb yn ddigonol, byddwn yn ystyried eich cais i gynnal cyfarfod.

Angela Burns: Thank you very much for that, Deputy First Minister; I appreciate it. I wish to add one more point, namely that I have looked at the books of the three companies that I mentioned, and I know that they have assets that outweigh their liabilities. By anyone’s standards, that makes

Angela Burns: Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am hynny, Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog; yr wyf yn gwerthfawrogi hynny. Carwn ychwanegu un pwynt arall, sef fy mod wedi edrych ar lyfrau tri o’r cwmnïau a grybwyllais, a gwn fod ganddynt asedau sy’n fwy na digon i dalu eu dyledion. Yn ôl safonau unrhyw un, mae

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them okay to deal with. All three have been dealing with HSBC for over five years, and the other common denominator is that the bank manager, who knew them all well, retired last year. The companies now have to deal with a bloke in a call centre, either in Carmarthen or Swansea. It is almost as though the bank were issuing a fatwa on these types of businesses as well as businesses in the transport industry. The time has come for some tough talking with the banks, because I do not think that they are listening.

hynny’n golygu ei bod yn ddiogel delio â hwy. Bu’r tri chwmni yn delio â HSBC ers dros bum mlynedd, a’r ffactor cyffredin arall yw bod rheolwr y banc, a oedd yn eu hadnabod i gyd yn dda, wedi ymddeol y llynedd. Nawr rhaid i’r cwmnïau ddelio â dyn mewn canolfan alwadau, naill ai yng Nghaerfyrddin ynteu yn Abertawe. Mae bron fel petai banciau yn gosod fatwa ar y mathau hyn o fusnesau yn ogystal â busnesau yn y diwydiant trafnidiaeth. Mae’n bryd cymryd camau cadarn gyda’r banciau, oherwydd nid wyf yn credu eu bod yn gwrando.

The national papers report the same. Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown say that they have lent the banks all these moneys, but they are not listening, although I appreciate that HSBC has not had much in the way of Government funding. These banks want to do business in Wales, but if they want a long-term future, it is about time they put some commitment into social enterprises and the people of Wales, and not treat us in this way. At some point in the future when times are good, they will want us to bank with them, to have our money, but we want them to support us now when times are bad. I urge you to be ultra tough with them, because I think that their behaviour is despicable.

Yr un yw neges y papurau newydd cenedlaethol. Dywed Alistair Darling a Gordon Brown eu bod wedi rhoi benthyg yr holl arian hyn i’r banciau, ond nid ydynt yn gwrando, er fy mod yn sylweddoli nad yw HSBC wedi cael llawer o gyllid gan y Llywodraeth. Mae’r banciau hyn am wneud busnes yng Nghymru, ond os ydynt am gael dyfodol tymor hir, mae’n hen bryd iddynt roi rhywfaint o ymrwymiad i fentrau cymdeithasol ac i bobl Cymru, nid ein trin fel hyn. Rywbryd yn y dyfodol pan fydd pethau’n dda, bydd arnynt eisiau inni fancio gyda hwy, i gael ein harian, ond mae arnom eisiau eu cefnogaeth yn awr a phethau’n anodd. Erfyniaf arnoch i fod yn hynod gadarn gyda hwy, oherwydd credaf fod eu hymddygiad yn warthus.

The Deputy First Minister: Thank you again for putting your comments on behalf of your constituents in the way that you have. I will undertake to contact the bank about the particular issues that you have raised. I give you that undertaking. If we feel that that action is not sufficient, we will arrange a meeting with the bank. However, it is a wider issue. You mentioned a particular bank, but it is more widespread than that. We will need to have discussions with the representatives of the whole banking sector in Wales, because the issue of businesses’ liquidity has to be addressed.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Diolch ichi eto am gyflwyno’ch sylwadau ar ran eich etholwyr fel y gwnaethoch. Addawaf gysylltu â’r banc am y problemau penodol a godwyd gennych. Yr wyf yn addo hynny ichi. Os teimlwn fod y cam hwnnw’n annigonol, byddwn yn trefnu cyfarfod gyda’r banc. Fodd bynnag, mae’n fater ehangach. Yr oeddech yn sôn am fanc penodol, ond mae’n fater ehangach na hynny. Bydd angen inni gael trafodaethau gyda chynrychiolwyr y sector bancio cyfan yng Nghymru, oherwydd rhaid mynd i’r afael â phroblem hylifedd busnesau.

The High-speed Rail Link Y Cyswllt Rheilffordd Cyflym

Q3 Sandy Mewies: Will the Minister give an update on the operation of the high-speed rail link from Holyhead to Cardiff? OAQ(3)0874(ECT)

C3 Sandy Mewies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am weithredu’r cyswllt rheilffordd cyflym rhwng Caergybi a Chaerdydd? OAQ(3)0874(ECT)

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The Deputy First Minister: The express Holyhead to Cardiff rail service, y Gerallt Gymro, launched on 15 December, provides improved journey times and a first-class service. Customer feedback has been very good, with Arriva Trains Wales receiving favourable comments on the service.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Mae’r cyswllt rheilffordd cyflym rhwng Caergybi a Chaerdydd, sef Gerallt Gymro, a lansiwyd ar 15 Rhagfyr yn golygu amseroedd teithio gwell a gwasanaeth o’r radd flaenaf. Cafwyd adborth da iawn gan deithwyr ac mae Trenau Arriva Cymru wedi cael sylwadau ffafriol am y gwasanaeth.

Sandy Mewies: We are all pleased that the Assembly Government is improving transport links between north and south Wales, but there is undoubtedly more work to do. For example, the air link that runs between Anglesey and Cardiff, which you know well, is very well used but is also heavily subsidised. In the opinion of many, a third point to the triangle is needed, based in north-east Wales. Will you continue to investigate the possibility and benefits of having a base at Airbus UK in Flintshire, which will contribute to the economy and the well running of businesses in Wales?

Sandy Mewies: Yr ydym i gyd yn falch fod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn gwella’r cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth rhwng y gogledd a’r de, ond mae mwy o waith i’w wneud heb os. Er enghraifft, defnyddir llawer ar y cyswllt hedfan rhwng Ynys Môn a Chaerdydd—gwasanaeth yr ydych chi’n gyfarwydd iawn ag ef—ond mae hefyd yn cael llawer o nawdd. Ym marn llawer, mae angen cornel arall i’r cynllun, a honno yn y gogledd-ddwyrain. A fyddwch yn parhau i edrych ar fanteision a phosibilrwydd cael canolfan yn Airbus UK yn sir y Fflint, a fydd yn cyfrannu at yr economi ac at redeg busnesau’n dda yng Nghymru?

2.30 p.m.

The Deputy First Minister: You are right to say that the air link is extremely well used, and the train service is also receiving a good response. People are finding that services are better and faster, which is of great benefit to them. I was not involved in the original decision on the air link, but my understanding is that consideration was given to having a link in north-east Wales, but, for whatever reason, at that time, it was not possible. However, I will certainly go back to my officials and put your point to them to see what response we might receive now.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr ydych yn iawn i ddweud bod defnyddi mawr ar y cyswllt hedfan, ac mae’r gwasanaeth trên yn cael ymateb da hefyd. Mae pobl yn gweld bod gwasanaethau’n well ac yn gyflymach, ac mae hynny’n fanteisiol iawn iddynt. Nid oeddwn yn rhan o’r penderfyniad gwreiddiol ynghylch y cyswllt hedfan, ond caf ar ddeall fod y cyswllt yng ngogledd ddwyrain Cymru wedi ei ystyried, ond, am ba reswm bynnag, bryd hynny nid oedd yn bosibl. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn sicr yn mynd yn ôl at fy swyddogion ac yn cyfleu eich pwynt iddynt i weld pa ymateb a gaem yn awr.

Eleanor Burnham: Yr ydym i gyd yn gwerthfawrogi unrhyw welliannau i’r cysylltiadau rhwng y gogledd a’r de. Mae llawer o bobl yn teithio o’r de i’r gogledd yn wythnosol. A ydych wedi gwneud ymchwil i faint o bobl yn union sydd yn gwneud y daith honno? Yr wyf yn siŵr bod y nifer llawer yn uwch ers i’r Cynulliad gael ei sefydlu.

Eleanor Burnham: We appreciate any improvements in north-south links. Many people travel between north and south Wales every week. Have you undertaken any research to ascertain exactly how many people undertake that journey? I am sure the number is much higher since the Assembly was established.

Yr ydym yn gresynu at y ffaith nad yw’r gwasanaeth yn llawer o werth i ni yn Wrecsam ac at y ffaith bod amryw o broblemau wedi bod ar y gwasanaeth cyflym

We regret the fact that the service is not of much use to us in Wrexham and that there have been many problems with the new early morning high-speed service. There are some

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cynnar newydd hwn. Mae pryderon am ansawdd y gwasanaeth gan fod pobl wedi gorfod aros amdano. Digwyddodd hyn yn y Fflint, er enghraifft, lle cafodd un Aelod broblem am fod y trên yn hwyr ar y diwrnod hwnnw. Byddem yn gwerthfawrogi unrhyw beth y gallech ei wneud i wella trafnidiaeth, gan ei fod yn peri pryder i ni i gyd.

concerns about the quality of the service because people have had to wait for it. This happened at Flint, for example, where a Member encountered a problem as the train was late on that day. I would appreciate anything that you could do to improve transport, because it is a matter of concern to us all.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod am y cynnydd sylweddol a fu, sy’n uwch nag a ragwelwyd, yn nifer y bobl sydd yn defnyddio ein trenau. Mae hynny’n wir am y gwasanaethau de-gogledd, y gwasanaethau yn y Cymoedd a’r rhai mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o broblemau gyda’r gwasanaeth newydd. Yr wyf wedi defnyddio’r gwasanaeth fy hun ac, ar yr adegau hynny, cyrhaeddodd ar amser, ac yr oedd yn arbennig o dda. Os oes problemau wedi bod, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai Trenau Arriva yn fodlon ystyried hynny. Y realiti bellach yw bod gennym wasanaeth o ansawdd uchel sydd yn mynd o’r de i’r gogledd, ac mae gennym hawl yng Nghymru i gael gwasanaeth o ansawdd rhwng y de a’r gogledd sydd yn cymharu ag ansawdd gwasanaethau sydd yn mynd i rannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Gyfunol. Teimlaf fod y cam pwysig yr ydym wedi’i gymryd yn un adeiladol. Yn sicr, byddwn am edrych i weld faint mwy o wasanaethau y gallwn eu darparu ar draws Cymru, oherwydd rhaid inni geisio ymateb i’r cynnydd yn nifer y teithwyr.

The Deputy First Minister: We are all aware that there has been a substantial increase, which is higher that predicted, in the number of train users. This is true of north-south services, services in the Valleys and those in other parts of Wales. I am not aware of any problems with the new service. I have used the service myself, and on those occasions the train arrived on time and the service was excellent. If there have been any problems, I am sure Arriva Trains would be prepared to consider the issue. The reality of the situation ar present is that we have a high-quality service between north and south Wales, and we have the right to expect such a service in Wales, comparable with the standard of services travelling to other parts of the United Kingdom. I feel the important step that we have taken has been constructive. Certainly, we shall consider how many more services we can provide across Wales, because we must try to respond to the increase in the number of passengers.

Janet Ryder: The past 10 years of devolution have seen rail services to the largest town in north Wales, Wrexham, double, from 21 to 42 trains a day, and those include direct services to Cardiff and London. The new high-speed express to Cardiff continues that trend, and it will certainly increase in potential once it can be directed through Wrexham. Do you, like me, want to see those further developments made, so that we can have a proper, integrated public transport system in that area?

Janet Ryder: Dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf ers datganoli gwelwyd gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd i Wrecsam, y dref fwyaf yng ngogledd Cymru, yn dyblu o 21 i 42 trên y dydd, ac mae’r rheini’n cynnwys gwasanaethau uniongyrchol i Gaerdydd ac i Lundain. Mae’r trên cyflym i Gaerdydd yn parhau’r patrwm hwnnw, a bydd yn sicr yn cynyddu’r potensial pan fydd modd ei gyfeirio drwy Wrecsam. A oes arnoch chi, fel finnau, eisiau gweld gwireddu’r datblygiadau hynny er mwyn inni gael system cludiant cyhoeddus briodol ac integredig yn yr ardal honno.

The Deputy First Minister: We have made the point more than once that we would have taken the service through Wrexham had that

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr ydym wedi gwneud y pwynt fwy nag unwaith y byddem wedi mynd â’r gwasanaeth drwy Wrecsam

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been possible. Network Rail has confirmed to us that the timetable is not workable, because of path conflicts along the route with services operated by four companies. However, we are keeping this under constant review, including the future availability of an express train path via Wrexham. We are undertaking the feasibility study, funded by Network Rail, into improving the railway infrastructure between Wrexham and Chester and, when that work is completed, there will be no question but that this service will go through Wrexham.

petasai hynny’n bosibl. Mae Network Rail wedi cadarnhau nad yw’r amserlen yn ymarferol, oherwydd gwrthdaro ar y llwybrau gyda gwasanaethau a weithredir gan bedwar cwmni. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn adolygu hyn yn gyson, gan gynnwys y cwestiwn a fydd llwybr trên cyflym ar gael drwy Wrecsam. Yr ydym yn cynnal yr astudiaeth ddichonoldeb, sy’n cael ei hariannu gan Network Rail, i wella’r seilwaith rheilffyrdd rhwng Wrecsam a Chaer, ac ar ôl cwblhau’r gwaith hwnnw bydd y gwasanaeth hwn yn sicr yn mynd drwy Wrecsam.

Band Eang Broadband

C4 Paul Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am ddarpariaeth band eang yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0861(ECT)

Q4 Paul Davies: Will the Minister give an update on broadband provision in Wales? OAQ(3)0861(ECT)

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Ym mis Rhagfyr, cyhoeddais y byddai chwech o ardaloedd sydd heb fand eang yn cael eu cysylltu â band eang o dan y contract presennol sydd gennym gyda BT. Byddwn yn dal ati i geisio dod o hyd i atebion er mwyn cysylltu mannau eraill sydd heb fand eang. Byddwn yn ystyried defnyddio technolegau amgen hefyd.

The Deputy First Minister: In December, I announced that six not-spot areas would receive broadband under the existing BT contract. We are continuing to work on identifying solutions for connecting other not spots. We will also consider the use of alternative technologies.

Paul Davies: Yr wyf yn falch o glywed y bydd chwe phentref arall yn gallu derbyn y gwasanaeth hanfodol hwn. Fel mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn gwybod, mae nifer o ardaloedd yn fy etholaeth i sydd yn methu â derbyn y gwasanaeth hwn. Dan yr amgylchiadau, a all y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog ddweud wrthym pryd y bydd y Llywodraeth mewn sefyllfa i allu buddsoddi mewn rhai o’r ardaloedd yn fy etholaeth i ac yn wir mewn ardaloedd eraill drwy Gymru sydd yn methu a chael mynediad o’r fath?

Paul Davies: I am pleased to hear that six more villages will receive be able to this vital service. As the Deputy First Minister knows, there are many areas in my constituency which cannot receive this service. Under the circumstances, could the Deputy First Minister tell us when the Government will be in a position to invest in some of the areas in my constituency and in other areas throughout Wales that cannot access such service?

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr ydych yn dweud nad ydym yn buddsoddi, ond mae gennym gontract gyda BT ac yr ydym yn cyfrannu at gostau cysylltiadau newydd. Mae gennym ddealltwriaeth gyda BT ynglŷn â chwe ardal ac, yn naturiol, yr ydym am ystyried a ellid cynnwys ardaloedd eraill. Gobeithiaf y gallwn wneud datganiad pellach yn fuan.

The Deputy First Minister: You say that we are not investing, but we have a contract with BT and we contribute to the cost of new connections. We have an understanding with BT about six areas, and naturally we wish to consider whether other areas can be included in the scheme. I hope we will be able to make a further statement before long.

Lesley Griffiths: Last week, the EU Lesley Griffiths: Wythnos diwethaf,

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announced proposals to reallocate €5 billion of agriculture money into other areas of rural investment. Of that, €1 billion will go towards improving broadband internet connections in a bid to improve competitiveness, growth and employment. Member states will be responsible for approving the reallocation and then applying for the money when it becomes available. Will you ensure that the Welsh Assembly Government asks the UK Government to back this redirection of resources in order to give Wales an opportunity to access the funding?

cyhoeddodd yr Undeb Ewropeaidd gynigion i ailddyrannu €5 biliwn o arian amaethyddol i feysydd buddsoddi gwledig eraill. O’r arian hwnnw bydd €1 biliwn yn mynd at wella cysylltiadau rhyngrwyd band eang mewn ymgais i wella cystadleurwydd, twf a chyflogaeth. Bydd Aelod-wladwriaethau’n gyfrifol am gymeradwyo’r ailddyrannu a gwneud cais wedyn am yr arian pan fydd ar gael. A wnewch chi’n siŵr fod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn gofyn i Lywodraeth y DU gefnogi ailgyfeirio adnoddau er mwyn rhoi cyfle i Gymru allau cael y cyllid?

The Deputy First Minister: If European money is available, it would be foolish not to make that application, and clearly we would want to do so. The crucial point here is that the not-spots that we are addressing involve first-generation broadband. It may be that, by the time that programme comes on stream, the next generation of broadband will be more readily available. If there are ways to speed up both programmes, that would be of immense benefit for rural Wales, although we have to remember—I think that it was Jenny Randerson who made this point—that there are not-spots in some of our urban areas as well.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Os oes arian Ewropeaidd ar gael, byddai’n ffolineb peidio â gwneud y cais hwnnw, ac yn amlwg byddem am wneud hynny. Y pwynt allweddol yma yw bod yr ardaloedd heb fand eang yr ydym yn rhoi sylw iddynt yn golygu band eang y genhedlaeth gyntaf. Efallai erbyn i’r rhaglen honno ddod ar waith y bydd y genhedlaeth nesaf o fand eang ar gael yn haws. Os oes ffyrdd i gyflymu’r naill raglen a’r llall, byddai hynny o fudd mawr i gefn gwlad Cymru, er bod yn rhaid inni gofio—credaf mai Jenny Randerson a wnaeth y pwynt hwn—fod yna ardaloedd heb fand eang yn rhai o’n hardaloedd trefol hefyd.

Kirsty Williams: As Paul Davies just outlined, individuals and communities in Brecon and Radnorshire continue to be unable to access broadband, which has a huge impact on businesses, as well as a social impact—people are unable to access resources for homework, for example, or to take advantage of cheap prices via the internet. You say that you hope to announce further not-spot conversions before long, but could you give my constituents some kind of timescale for addressing these not-spots?

Kirsty Williams: Fel y mae Paul Davies newydd ei amlinellu, mae unigolion a chymunedau ym Mrycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed sy’n dal i fethu cael band eang, a hynny’n cael effaith enfawr ar fusnesau, yn ogystal ag effaith gymdeithasol—mae pobl yn methu cael adnoddau ar gyfer gwaith cartref, er enghraifft, neu i fanteisio ar brisiau rhad dros y rhyngrwyd. Dywedwch eich bod yn gobeithio cyhoeddi trawsnewid rhagor o ardaloedd sydd heb fand eang cyn hir, ond a allech roi rhyw fath o amserlen i’m hetholwyr ar gyfer mynd i’r afael â’r ardaloedd hyn sydd heb fand eang?

Secondly, a Westminster report of last week announced that there should be a universal service obligation for broadband by 2012; what are the consequences for rural broadband services in Wales?

Yn ail, cyhoeddodd adroddiad o San Steffan yr wythnos diwethaf y dylid cael rhwymedigaeth gwasanaeth cyffredin ar gyfer band eang erbyn 2012; beth yw’r canlyniadau ar gyfer gwasanaethau band eang gwledig yng Nghymru?

The Deputy First Minister: I hope that there is progress on the issue of universal service

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Gobeithio bod cynnydd ar fater rhwymedigaethau

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obligations. However, I would not want to wait until 2012 before taking action, and I can tell you that we are currently in discussions with BT about locations in Powys, which would cover your constituency, and I hope that we can progress quickly, as I indicated earlier, although it is difficult for me to give a precise date.

gwasanaeth cyffredin. Fodd bynnag, ni fyddwn am aros tan 2012 cyn gweithredu, a gallaf ddweud wrthych ein bod yn cynnal trafodaethau gyda BT ar hyn o bryd ynghylch lleoliadau ym Mhowys, a fyddai’n berthnasol i’ch etholaeth chi. Gobeithio y gallwn symud ymlaen yn gyflym, fel y dywedais yn gynharach, er ei bod yn anodd imi roi union ddyddiad.

Y Llywydd: Tynnwyd cwestiwn 5, OAQ(3)0854(ECT) yn ôl.

The Presiding Officer: Question 5, OAQ(3)0854(ECT) has been withdrawn.

The Heads of the Valleys Blaenau’r Cymoedd

Q6 Leanne Wood: Will the Minister make a statement on economic development in the Heads of the Valleys? OAQ(3)0863(ECT)

C6 Leanne Wood: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ddatblygu economaidd ym mlaenau’r Cymoedd? OAQ(3)0863(ECT)

The Deputy Minister for Regeneration (Leighton Andrews): The Heads of the Valleys programme is making significant progress towards its goal of bringing real change to the region through physical, social and economic regeneration. I have announced the success of several projects in gaining support from convergence funds, including the job-match programme and tourism projects.

Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Adfywio (Leighton Andrews): Mae rhaglen Blaenau’r Cymoedd yn symud ymlaen yn sylweddol at ei nod o ddod â newid gwirioneddol i’r rhanbarth drwy adfywio ffisegol, cymdeithasol ac economaidd. Yr wyf wedi cyhoeddi llwyddiant nifer o brosiectau o ran cael cymorth gan gronfeydd cydgyfeirio, gan gynnwys rhaglen paru swyddi a phrosiectau twristiaeth.

Leanne Wood: Do you share my concern that none of the principal towns in the Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council draft plan are in the Rhondda valleys? The principal towns will be able to attract additional investment. What discussions do you intend to have regarding the regeneration of the Heads of the Valleys with Rhondda Cynon Taf council? I have recently been contacted by an unemployed builder from Ferndale in the Rhondda, who has complained that RCT Homes is using external contractors although the original intention was to procure local contractors to carry out the work. Will you investigate this claim and intervene to ensure that local procurement is prioritised in Heads of the Valleys regeneration?

Leanne Wood: A ydych chi, fel finnau, yn pryderu nad oes yr un o’r prif drefi yng nghynllun drafft Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf yng nghymoedd Rhondda? Bydd y prif drefi’n gallu denu buddsoddiad ychwanegol. Pa drafodaethau y bwriadwch eu cael ynghylch adfywio Blaenau’r Cymoedd gyda chyngor Rhondda Cynon Taf? Cysylltodd adeiladwr di-waith o Lynrhedynog yn Rhondda â mi’n ddiweddar gan ddweud bod Cartrefi RCT yn defnyddio contractwyr allanol, er mai’r bwriad gwreiddiol oedd caffael contractwyr lleol i gyflawni’r gwaith. A wnewch chi ymchwilio i’r honiad hwn a chamu i mewn i sicrhau bod caffael lleol yn cael blaenoriaeth wrth adfywio Blaenau’r Cymoedd?

Leighton Andrews: The Assembly Member for the Rhondda has also been contacted by the same builder, and has already made representations to RCT Homes on that issue. Specifically in respect of ministerial responsibilities, I have met recently with the

Leighton Andrews: Mae’r un adeiladwr hefyd wedi cysylltu ag Aelod Cynulliad Rhondda, ac mae eisoes wedi cyflwyno sylwadau i Gartrefi RCT ar y mater hwnnw. Yn benodol yng nghyswllt cyfrifoldebau Gweinidogion, yr wyf wedi cwrdd â’r cyngor

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council to discuss regeneration, and a number of towns in the Rhondda, including Treorchy, Ferndale, Porth and Tonypandy, are named as key settlements in the local development plan.

yn ddiweddar i drafod adfywio, a chaiff nifer o drefi yn Rhondda, gan gynnwys Treorci, Glynrhedynog, Porth a Thonypandy, eu henwi fel setliadau allweddol yn y cynllun datblygu lleol.

2.40 p.m.

Treorchy, Treherbert, Maerdy and Ferndale are wards covered by the Heads of the Valleys programme. Ferndale, for example, has received £1 million from the programme in respect of a number of environmental and traffic improvements. Also, a holistic area regeneration plan for Treorchy is being developed by RCT council. One of my officials attended a recent meeting, which was held in Treorchy to discuss that regeneration plan.

Mae Treorci, Treherbert, Maerdy a Glynrhedynog yn wardiau sy’n dod dan raglen Blaenau’r Cymoedd. Mae Glynrhedynog, er enghraifft, wedi cael £1 filiwn gan y rhaglen ar gyfer nifer o welliannau amgylcheddol a thraffig. Hefyd, mae cynllun adfywio ardal gyfannol ar gyfer Treorci yn cael ei ddatblygu gan gyngor Rhondda Cynon Taf. Bu un o’m swyddogion mewn cyfarfod yn ddiweddar yn Nhreorci i drafod y cynllun adfywio hwnnw.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Do you accept the important role of further education colleges in helping people to access increased economic activity in the Heads of the Valleys and the wider South Wales Central area and uplift their skills? Why has no further education or higher education provider been invited to your economic summits, and will that omission be rectified for the fourth summit, which is to be held next week?

Andrew R.T. Davies: A ydych yn derbyn swyddogaeth bwysig colegau addysg bellach wrth helpu pobl i allu cael mwy o weithgarwch economaidd ym Mlaenau’r Cymoedd ac ardal ehangach Canol De Cymru a gwella’u sgiliau? Pam nad oes darparwyr addysg bellach neu addysg uwch wedi eich gwahodd i’ch uwchgynadleddau economaidd, ac a fydd y cam gwag hwnnw’n cael ei gywiro ar gyfer y bedwaredd uwchgynhadledd a gynhelir yr wythnos nesaf?

Leighton Andrews: The economic summits engage with a wide variety of different actors in the Welsh economy and a wide variety of issues has been discussed at the economic summits so far held, including the skills agenda. The Deputy Minister for Skills is planning to attend the economic summit to be held on Friday. It is through the work of the Department for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills that we have advanced the extensions of the ReAct programme and created the ProAct programme.

Leighton Andrews: Mae’r uwchgynadleddau economaidd yn ymwneud ag amrywiaeth eang o gynrychiolwyr yn economi Cymru, ac mae amrywiaeth eang o faterion wedi eu trafod yn yr uwchgynadleddau economaidd sydd wedi cael eu cynnal hyd yn hyn, gan gynnwys yr agenda sgiliau. Mae’r Dirprwy Weinidog dros Sgiliau yn bwriadu bod yn yr uwchgynhadledd economaidd a gynhelir ddydd Gwener. Drwy waith yr Adran Plant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau yr ydym wedi symud estyniadau rhaglen ReAct ymlaen ac wedi creu’r rhaglen ProAct.

Amddiffyn Swyddi Protecting Jobs

C7 Paul Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am yr hyn mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ei wneud i amddiffyn swyddi yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0860(ECT)

Q7 Paul Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on what the Welsh Assembly Government is doing to protect jobs in Wales? OAQ(3)0860(ECT)

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Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Mae dogfen a gyflwynwyd i’r uwchgynhadledd economaidd ddiwethaf yn amlinellu’r hyn mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i ymateb i’r dirwasgiad. Ers hynny, cafwyd cyhoeddiadau pellach ynglŷn â buddsoddi £48 miliwn yn y cynllun ProAct.

The Deputy First Minister: The document presented to the latest economic summit outlined what the Government is doing to respond to the recession. Since then, there have been further announcements about an investment of £48 million in the ProAct scheme.

Paul Davies: Yn eich ateb i David Melding, dywedasoch fod y Llywodraeth am amddiffyn ein sail sgiliau. Yn ddiweddar, mae’r Asiantaeth Safonau Gyrru wedi penderfynu peidio ag ehangu ac adleoli canolfan prawf gyrru yn Hwlffordd. Yn wir, bydd yn cau’r un bresennol, a bydd hynny’n ergyd enfawr i’r ardal. Byddai sefydlu’r ganolfan newydd yno’n dod ag effaith bositif ehangach ar yr economi’n lleol drwy greu ac amddiffyn swyddi angenrheidiol. O dan yr amgylchiadau, ac o ystyried eich bod yn Weinidog dros drafnidiaeth a’r economi, pa drafodaethau gawsoch gyda Gweinidogion Prydain ar y mater hwn, sy’n effeithio nid yn unig ar fy etholaeth i, ond ar Gymru gyfan?

Paul Davies: In your response to David Melding, you said that the Government wants to protect our skills base. Recently, the Driving Standards Agency decided not to expand and relocate the driving test centre in Haverfordwest. In fact, the current centre is to be closed, which will be a huge blow to the area. Establishing the new centre there would have a wider positive effect on the local economy by creating and safeguarding essential employment. Under the circumstances, and given that you are the Minister with responsibility for the economy and transport, what discussions have you had with British Ministers on this issue, which affects not only my constituency, but the whole of Wales?

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Nid penderfyniadau’r Llywodraeth hon yw’r rhain. Mae nifer o drafodaethau wedi eu cynnal â’r adrannau a’r asiantaethau priodol yn Lloegr. Gallaf ysgrifennu atoch ynglŷn ag union fanylion y cynllun yn Hwlffordd. Gallaf eich sicrhau bod nifer o drafodaethau wedi eu cynnal. Yn naturiol, yr ydym yn gresynu at golli unrhyw swyddi ar adeg o ddirwasgiad.

The Deputy First Minister: These are not the decisions of this Government. We have held a number of discussions with the relevant departments and agencies in England. I could write to you with the exact details of the plans in Haverfordwest. I can assure you that many discussions have been held. Of course, we regret any job losses during a recession.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Mae sawl un wedi nodi bod y dirwasgiad economaidd yn effeithio ar etholaethau pob Aelod. Effeithiwyd ar fy etholaeth innau, fel y mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn gwybod. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iddo am yr hyn mae ei adran yn ei wneud i gynorthwyo pobl sydd wedi colli swyddi, yn benodol yn Llandybïe a Chapel Hendre, lle mae llawer o gwmnïau traddodiadol a theuluol sy’n gallu gwneud penderfyniadau’n gyflym. Gallant fod mewn sefyllfa i geisio sicrhau eu bod yn ymestyn eu gweithgareddau. A wnaiff y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog ymrwymo i roi pob cymorth i’r cwmnïau hynny, yn enwedig mewn sefyllfaoedd lle mae angen cefnogaeth ariannol y banciau arnynt?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Several people have noted that the economic recession affects every Member’s constituency. It has had an effect on my constituency, as the Deputy First Minister will be aware. I am grateful to him for the work done by his department to assist those who have lost jobs, specifically in Llandybïe and Capel Hendre, where there are many traditional and family companies that can make decisions quickly. They might be in a position to try to expand their activities. Will the Deputy First Minister commit to giving every possible support to these companies, especially when they need financial support from banks?

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Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn cydnabod eich pwynt am bwysigrwydd cwmnïau bach. Mae sawl un yn ein cynghori mai drwy gefnogi nifer o gwmnïau bach y gallwn ymateb yn gyflym i’r newid hinsawdd yn yr economi pan fo’n cryfhau.

The Deputy First Minister: I acknowledge your point about the importance of small companies. Many have advised us that it is by supporting a number of small companies that we can respond quickly to the changing economic climate when the upturn comes.

Mae nifer o gynlluniau eisoes ar waith, cyn belled ag y mae gwarantu benthyciadau yn y cwestiwn. Mae hynny’n dod drwy BERR ar hyn o bryd. Mae’n Llywodraeth ni yn gofyn a oes rhywbeth y gallwn ei wneud. Gallaf roi sicrwydd ichi ein bod yn edrych yn ofalus ar unrhyw gymorth pellach y gallwn ei roi yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf.

There are many schemes in place already, as regards guaranteeing loans. This happens through BERR at the moment. Our Government is asking whether there is anything we can do. I can assure you that we are looking carefully at any further support that we can give over the coming weeks.

Y Llywydd: Trosglwyddwyd cwestiwn 8, OAQ(3)0900(ECT), i’w ateb yn ysgrifenedig.

The Presiding Officer: Question 8, OAQ(3)0900(ECT), has been transferred for written answer.

Busnesau Bach Small Businesses

C9 Nerys Evans: Beth mae’r Gweinidog yn ei wneud i gefnogi busnesau bach yng Nghanolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru? OAQ(3)0894(ECT)

Q9 Nerys Evans: What is the Minister doing to support small businesses in Mid and West Wales? OAQ(3)0894(ECT)

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr ydym yn gyrru agenda ‘Cymru’n Un’ yn ei blaen drwy ddarparu cymorth amrywiol i fusnesau a mentrau, gan gynnwys y gronfa fuddsoddi sengl, er mwyn eu hannog i dyfu.

The Deputy First Minister: We are driving forward our ‘One Wales’ agenda, providing a range of support, including the single investment fund, to encourage enterprise and business growth.

Nerys Evans: Ymwelais yn ddiweddar â sawl busnes yn ardal Dinbych-y-pysgod gan drafod nid yn unig y dirywiad byd-eang presennol ond yr economi’n fwy eang a’r dirywiad a fu yn yr ardal honno cyn y dirwasgiad presennol. Mae nifer o fusnesau wedi gadael yr ardal a nifer o’r buddsoddiadau yn cael eu canolbwyntio yn nhref fechan Arberth gerllaw. A wnewch chi gytuno i ymweld â Dinbych-y-pysgod gyda mi er mwyn trafod â’r bobl fusnes hyn ynghylch eu pryderon?

Nerys Evans: I visited several businesses recently in the Tenby area to discuss not only the global downturn, but the economy more widely and the deterioration in the local economy prior to the current recession. Several businesses have left the area and investments are being concentrated in the small town of Narberth nearby. Would you agree to visit Tenby with me to discuss their concerns with these businesspeople?

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Mae rhywun yn ymwybodol iawn fod sefyllfa argyfyngus yn wynebu nifer o fusnesau bach, yn enwedig mewn rhai o’n trefi. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r ffordd y mae’r wasgfa’n effeithio arnynt. Os yw Nerys am estyn gwahoddiad, byddwn yn sicr yn ystyried hynny’n ofalus ac yn edrych am amser cyfleus yn y dyddiadur i allu mynd i Ddinbych-y-pysgod. Yr wyf am

The Deputy First Minister: One is very aware that a number of small businesses are facing a critical situation, particularly in some of our towns. I am aware how the credit crunch is affecting them. If Nerys wishes to extend an invitation, I would consider it carefully and look for a convenient time to visit Tenby. I want to give an assurance to people who represent these areas that the

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sicrhau cynrychiolwyr ardaloedd fel hyn fod y Llywodraeth yn ymwybodol iawn o’r problemau sydd yn wynebu pob rhan o Gymru ac y byddwn yn gwneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i’w cynorthwyo.

Government is very aware of the problems facing all parts of Wales and that we will do everything within our powers to assist them.

Angela Burns: May I invite the Deputy First Minister and Nerys to a meeting that has been arranged in Tenby with a range of businesses. Pembrokeshire County Council and the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park will also be there to discuss this issue and to talk about what we can do to regenerate Tenby, both in terms of its economy and its tourist trade, which has been badly affected? I will send you both invitations and it would be useful for you to be there, Deputy First Minister, especially since all the main players are coming.

Angela Burns: A gaf fi wahodd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a Nerys i gyfarfod sydd wedi’i drefnu yn Ninbych-y-pysgod gydag ystod eang o fusnesau? Bydd Cyngor Sir Penfro a Pharc Cenedlaethol Arfordir Penfro yno hefyd i drafod y mater hwn ac i sôn am yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud i adfywio Dinbych-y-pysgod, o ran ei heconomi ac o ran ei thwristiaeth, sydd wedi cael ergyd galed. Anfonaf wahoddiad atoch eich dau, a byddai’n fuddiol ichi fod yno, Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, yn enwedig gan fod y prif chwaraewyr i gyd yn dod.

The Deputy First Minister: It is difficult to give a response without knowing the date and seeing what other commitments I have. When Assembly Members extend invitations, it is not always possible to arrange to attend within a matter of days. However, under the current circumstances, it is possible to be a bit more flexible. I will certainly want to check that. There are certain aspects of your question that are probably better directed to the Deputy Minister for Regeneration. He and I will need to discuss the invitation and decide on the most appropriate way of responding.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Mae’n anodd ateb heb wybod y dyddiad a gweld pa ymrwymiadau eraill sydd gennyf. Pan fydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn estyn gwahoddiad imi, nid yw bob amser yn bosibl imi drefnu bod yno o fewn ychydig ddyddiau. Serch hynny, dan yr amgylchiadau presennol, mae modd bod ychydig yn fwy hyblyg. Yn sicr, byddaf am weld a yw hynny’n bosibl. Mae ambell agwedd ar eich cwestiwn y byddai’n well ei chyfeirio at y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Adfywio, mae’n debyg. Bydd angen iddo ef a minnau drafod y gwahoddiad a phenderfynu beth yw’r ffordd fwyaf priodol o ymateb.

Mick Bates: Minister, you used the word ‘enterprise’ and mentioned the need to look into areas, and, may I suggest, there is a need to build start-up units? If you come to Llanidloes in Montgomeryshire, you will find that we have had units there for over 18 months. Only one of the six units is occupied. What are you doing to make sure that where the Government has property, it is used to encourage business start-ups or any other possible enterprise? It seems to me that you are not investing enough money in marketing Government property.

Mick Bates: Weinidog, defnyddiwyd y gair ‘menter’ gennych gan ddweud bod angen ystyried meysydd, ac adeiladu unedau cychwyn busnes, os caf awgrymu? Os dewch i Lanidloes yn sir Drefaldwyn, gwelwch fod gennym unedau yno ers dros 18 mis. Un yn unig o’r chwe uned sydd ar waith. Beth yr ydych yn ei wneud i sicrhau, lle bydd gan y Llywodraeth eiddo, ei fod yn cael ei ddefnyddio i annog pobl i gychwyn busnes neu unrhyw fenter bosibl arall? Mae’n ymddangos i mi nad ydych yn buddsoddi digon o arian i farchnata eiddo’r Llywodraeth?

The Deputy First Minister: I do not accept that proposition at all. The Government is keenly aware of the need to stimulate the economy in all parts of Wales. Business start-ups are an important part of that. I can assure

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Nid wyf yn derbyn y gosodiad hwnnw o gwbl. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn hollol ymwybodol fod angen iddi sbarduno’r economi ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Mae cychwyn busnesau’n rhan

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you that we are doing everything possible not only to market the properties that we have, but to market all parts of Wales as open for business and investment.

bwysig o hynny. Gallaf eich sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud popeth a allwn, nid yn unig i farchnata’r eiddo sydd gennym, ond i farchnata pob rhan o Gymru a dweud eu bod ar agor ar gyfer busnes a buddsoddi.

New Business Start-ups Busnesau Newydd

Q10 Huw Lewis: What support is the Welsh Assembly Government offering to encourage new business start-ups in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney? OAQ(3)0898(ECT)

C10 Huw Lewis: Pa gefnogaeth y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ei gynnig i annog pobl i gychwyn busnesau newydd ym Merthyr Tudful a Rhymni? OAQ(3)0898(ECT)

The Deputy First Minister: Under the Flexible Support for Business programme, we provide a start-up businesses service to match customer requirements. The £36 million-worth, EU-funded start-up service offers a range of support for individuals to start up in business.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Fel rhan o’r cynllun Cymorth Hyblyg i Fusnesau, yr ydym yn darparu gwasanaethau i fusnesau newydd sy’n cyd-fynd ag anghenion cwsmeriaid. Mae’r gwasanaeth gwerth £36 miliwn sy’n cael ei ariannu gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn cynnig amrywiaeth o wasanaethau i gynorthwyo unigolion i sefydlu busnesau newydd.

Huw Lewis: Now, more than ever, the Assembly Government needs to do all it can to ensure that businesses get the support that they require, whether for new companies or for well established companies that need extra support. My constituency of Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, alongside others throughout Wales, is suffering from the harsh realities of the current economic downturn. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the business support staff who work so hard all-year round and particularly during this difficult period. I pay special tribute to all the staff at Flexible Support for Business and Venture Wales, based in Merthyr Tydfil. How is Flexible Support for Business working in my constituency to increase awareness and take-up of the scheme? What is the current uptake for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney?

Huw Lewis: Yn awr, yn fwy nag erioed, mae angen i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad wneud popeth yn ei gallu i sicrhau bod busnesau’n cael y cymorth y mae ei angen arnynt, boed yn gwmnïau newydd ynteu’n gwmnïau sydd eisoes yn bodoli ac arnynt angen cymorth ychwanegol. Mae fy etholaeth i, sef Merthyr Tudful a Rhymni, ynghyd ag etholaethau eraill ledled y wlad, yn dioddef yn sgil gwirionedd creulon y dirywiad economaidd presennol. Achubaf ar y cyfle hwn i roi teyrnged i’r staff sy’n rhoi cymorth i fusnesau. Maent yn gweithio mor galed drwy’r flwyddyn ac yn enwedig yn ystod y cyfnod anodd hwn. Rhoddaf deyrnged arbennig i holl staff Cymorth Hyblyg i Fusnes a Menter Cymru, ym Merthyr Tudful. Sut mae Cymorth Hyblyg i Fusnes yn gweithio yn fy etholaeth i gynyddu ymwybyddiaeth o’r cynllun ac i annog mwy i fanteisio arno? Faint sy’n ei ddefnyddio ar hyn o bryd ym Merthyr Tudful a Rhymni?

2.50 p.m.

The Deputy First Minister: I cannot give you the precise figures today for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, but I will write to you with those. The whole point of introducing Flexible Support for Business was—rather than trying to fit companies into the

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Ni allaf roi’r ffigurau manwl ichi heddiw ar gyfer Merthyr Tudful a Rhymni, ond ysgrifennaf atoch i’w rhoi ichi. Holl bwynt cyflwyno Cymorth Hyblyg i Fusnes—yn hytrach na cheisio gwthio cwmnïau i ffrâm draddodiadol

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traditional straitjackets of Government schemes—to achieve a bit of flexibility to tailor a programme to the needs of an individual business, whether it be for a start-up business, an existing business that wants to expand, or for attracting inward investment to an area. That is why Flexible Support for Business is attracting the interest of other parts of the United Kingdom. However, I can assure you that the Government is also very conscious of the fact that, although Flexible Support for Business was originally introduced in order to stimulate growth and investment, in areas such as Merthyr Tydfil, Rhymney and other parts of Wales there are a number of companies that are now in survival mode. We must do what we can to try to assist those companies to meet the challenges of the downturn.

cynlluniau’r Llywodraeth—oedd creu ychydig hyblygrwydd er mwyn teilwra rhaglen yn ôl anghenion busnes unigol, boed yn fusnes sy’n cychwyn o’r newydd, yn fusnes sy’n bodoli eisoes ac sy’n awyddus i ehangu, ynteu er mwyn denu mewnfuddsoddi i’r ardal. Dyna pam mae Cymorth Hyblyg i Fusnes yn denu diddordeb rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Unedig. Fodd bynnag, gallaf eich sicrhau bod y Llywodraeth hefyd yn ymwybodol iawn, er bod Cymorth i Fusnes wedi’i gyflwyno yn y lle cyntaf er mwyn sbarduno twf a buddsoddi, mewn ardaloedd megis Merthyr Tudful, Rhymni a rhannau eraill o Gymru, fod nifer o gwmnïau erbyn hyn yn brwydro am eu bywyd. Rhaid inni wneud yr hyn a allwn i geisio cynorthwyo’r cwmnïau hynny i ymateb i heriau’r dirywiad.

William Graham: I welcome Huw Lewis’s conversion and more vocal commitment to the business sector. However, has the Minister’s department been working more closely with the UK Government to ease the burden of tax and regulation, particularly on small businesses, in this time of recession?

William Graham: Yr wyf yn croesawu tröedigaeth Huw Lewis a’i ymrwymiad mwy llafar i’r sector busnes. Serch hynny, a yw adran y Gweinidog wedi bod yn gweithio’n fwy clos gyda Llywodraeth y DU i liniaru’r baich trethi a rheoleiddio, yn enwedig ar fusnesau bach, yn ystod y dirwasgiad hwn?

The Deputy First Minister: Yes, we have been. We made representations to the UK Government on the issue of, for example, empty properties. Of course, we were successful in that because, although the full scheme has not been introduced, 70 per cent of companies in Wales will benefit from the introduction of the scheme. We also made representations on business rates generally. As I think the First Minister made clear in answering questions, within our budget, we are unable to introduce a more enhanced scheme, but we are putting £21 million a year into the scheme and we made the case on both of those issues. We want to make it clear that, in addition to making those representations, we are working very closely with the Department for Business, Enterprise, and Regulatory Reform to make Welsh companies aware of the help that is available as a result of the announcements made a few weeks ago. We want Welsh businesses to be able to benefit from any help that is available, from the Welsh Assembly Government, the UK Government, or even the European Union.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Ydyw. Cyflwynwyd sylwadau i Lywodraeth y DU ynglŷn ag eiddo gwag, er enghraifft. Wrth gwrs, buom yn llwyddiannus yn hynny oherwydd, er nad yw’r cynllun llawn wedi’i gyflwyno, bydd 70 y cant o gwmnïau Cymru’n elwa o gyflwyno’r cynllun. Cyflwynwyd sylwadau hefyd ynglŷn ag ardrethi busnes yn gyffredinol. Credaf i’r Prif Weinidog ei gwneud yn glir wrth ateb cwestiynau na allwn, o fewn ein cyllideb, gyflwyno cynllun gwell, ond yr ydym yn bwydo £21 miliwn y flwyddyn i’r cynllun, a llwyddwyd i gyflwyno’r ddadl ynglŷn â’r ddau fater hynny. Yr ydym am ei gwneud yn glir ein bod, yn ogystal â chyflwyno’r sylwadau hynny, yn gweithio’n agos iawn gyda’r Adran Busnes, Menter, a Diwygio Rheoleiddio er mwyn i gwmnïau Cymru wybod am y cymorth sydd ar gael o ganlyniad i’r cyhoeddiadau a wnaed ychydig wythnosau’n ôl. Yr ydym am i fusnesau Cymru allu elwa o unrhyw gymorth sydd ar gael, gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, gan Lywodraeth y DU, neu hyd yn oed gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.

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Sefydlu ac Ethol PwyllgorauEstablishment and Election of Committees

Y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Carwyn Jones): Cynigiaf fod

The Counsel General and Leader of the House (Carwyn Jones): I propose that

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 21.1, yn sefydlu pwyllgor, y cyfeirir ato fel Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth Rhif 4, i ystyried y cynigion deddfwriaethol a gyfeirir ato gan y Pwyllgor Busnes. (NDM4123)

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 21.1, establishes a committee, to be known as Legislation Committee No. 4, to consider legislative proposals referred to it by the Business Committee. (NDM4123)

Cynigiaf fod I propose that

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 10.3, yn ethol Lorraine Barrett (Llafur), Joyce Watson (Llafur), Bethan Jenkins (Plaid Cymru), Paul Davies (Ceidwadwyr), Mike German (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol) a Kirsty Williams (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol) fel aelodau o Bwyllgor Deddfwriaeth Rhif 4. (NDM4124)

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 10.3, elects Lorraine Barrett (Labour), Joyce Watson (Labour), Bethan Jenkins (Plaid Cymru), Paul Davies (Conservative), Mike German (Liberal Democrat) and Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat) as members of Legislation Committee No. 4. (NDM4124)

Cynigiaf fod I propose that

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 21.1, yn sefydlu pwyllgor, y cyfeirir ato fel Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth Rhif 5, i ystyried y cynigion deddfwriaethol a gyfeirir ato gan y Pwyllgor Busnes. (NDM4125)

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 21.1, establishes a committee, to be known as Legislation Committee No. 5, to consider legislative proposals referred to it by the Business Committee. (NDM4125)

Cynigiaf fod I propose that

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 10.3, yn ethol Alun Davies (Llafur), Lesley Griffiths (Llafur), Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru), Mark Isherwood (Ceidwadwyr), Darren Millar (Ceidwadwyr) a Mick Bates (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol) fel aelodau o Bwyllgor Deddfwriaeth Rhif 5. (NDM4126)

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 10.3, elects Alun Davies (Labour), Lesley Griffiths (Labour), Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru), Mark Isherwood (Conservative), Darren Millar (Conservative) and Mick Bates (Liberal Democrat) as members of Legislation Committee No. 5. (NDM4126)

Y Llywydd: Y cynnig yw bod y cynigion yn cael eu derbyn. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, caiff y cynigion eu derbyn.

The Presiding Officer: The proposal is that the motions be agreed. Is there any objection? I see that there is not. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the motions are therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y cynigion.Motions carried.

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Cynnig i Ddirymu Rheoliadau Atal Llygredd Nitradau (Cymru) 2008Motion to Annul the Nitrate Pollution Prevention (Wales) Regulations 2008

Mick Bates: I propose that Mick Bates: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 24.2:

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 24.2:

agrees that the Nitrate Pollution Prevention (Wales) Regulations 2008, laid before the Assembly on 9 December 2008, be annulled. (NDM4115)

yn cytuno y dylid dirymu Rheoliadau Atal Llygredd Nitradau (Cymru) 2008, a gyflwynwyd gerbron y Cynulliad ar 9 Rhagfyr 2008. (NDM4115)

The Presiding Officer: This is another first, I believe.

Y Llywydd: Dyma ni unwaith eto’n gwneud rhywbeth am y tro cyntaf, mi gredaf.

Mick Bates: Yes, I believe it is. Mick Bates: Ie, mae’n debyg.

I am pleased to bring forward this motion to annul these regulations today, because over the past few weeks we have had much debate about a variety of EU regulations, such as those on electronic identification and equine identification, and now it is nitrate vulnerable zones. I hope that we will continue to see more debate in the Chamber about new and amended EU regulations, and at the earliest possible stage in the preparation of legislation.

Yr wyf yn falch cyflwyno’r cynnig hwn heddiw i ddirymu’r rheoliadau hyn, oherwydd dros yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf yr ydym wedi dadlau’n helaeth ynglŷn ag amrywiaeth o reoliadau’r UE, megis y rheini ar dagiau electronig a dogfennau ceffylau, ac yn awr, dyma ni’n trafod parthau perygl nitradau. Gobeithio y byddwn yn dal i gael rhagor o ddadleuon yn y Siambr am reoliadau newydd a rheoliadau diwygiedig yr UE, a hynny cyn gynted byth ag y bo modd wrth baratoi deddfwriaeth.

I wish to make it clear that, in proposing this motion, I am not seeking to avoid addressing genuine pollution issues arising from agriculture. The reason for proposing the motion is that, in this instance, I do not believe that the action chosen is appropriate or that the best and most cost-effective measures available to deliver the required effect have been selected. I wish to raise specific concerns about the appeals mechanism in the regulations.

Dymunaf ei gwneud yn glir, wrth gyflwyno’r cynnig hwn, nad wyf yn ceisio osgoi mynd i’r afael â’r problemau llygru gwirioneddol sy’n codi yn sgil amaethyddiaeth. Y rheswm dros gyflwyno’r cynnig yw nad wyf yn credu, yn y cyswllt hwn, fod y camau a ddewiswyd yn briodol na bod y mesurau gorau a mwyaf cost-effeithiol sydd ar gael wedi’u dewis er mwyn cyrraedd y nod. Dymunaf fynegi pryderon penodol ynglŷn â’r mecanwaith apelio yn y rheoliadau.

Turning to the science, it is widely argued that the EU drinking water standard of 50mg per litre for nitrate in the nitrate directive is based on weak science and that recent research has shown that blue baby disease was not caused by nitrate levels in water. Ecological problems linked to nitrate have so far proved to be relatively rare in UK waters, a very different situation from the serious problems experienced in, for example, the Baltic and eastern North seas. Against this background, the benefits to be obtained from

I droi at y wyddoniaeth, dadleuir yn gyffredinol fod safon dŵr yfed yr UE, sef 50mg y litr ar gyfer nitradau yn y cyfarwyddyd nitradau, wedi’i seilio ar wyddoniaeth simsan a bod ymchwil ddiweddar wedi dangos nad lefelau’r nitradau mewn dŵr a oedd yn gyfrifol am glefyd y babanod glas. Hyd yn hyn, cymharol ychydig broblemau ecolegol cysylltiedig â nitradau a gafwyd yn nyfroedd y DU, sefyllfa wahanol iawn i’r problemau difrifol a gafwyd yn y môr Baltig, er enghraifft, ac yn rhan

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the implementation of this directive appear to be slight.

ddwyreiniol môr y Gogledd. A hyn yn gefndir, ymddengys mai ychydig fanteision a ddeuai yn sgil gweithredu’r cyfarwyddyd hwn.

Nitrates are a valuable and important nutrient for farmers, and therefore farmers have no desire to use them indiscriminately or wastefully. In fact, nitrate fertiliser use has declined by over 25 per cent during the last decade. Circumstances change when agricultural practices are changed, and this leads to a reduction in nitrogen leaching, Livestock numbers are falling, and nitrogen fertiliser use has declined by 40 per cent from the peak in 1987. Other key drivers are research and development in crops; crop utilisation has increased with new varieties. Agri-environment schemes and across the board cross-compliance rules, introduced in 2005, also play a part in reducing nitrogen.

Mae nitradau’n faetholion gwerthfawr a phwysig i ffermwyr, ac felly nid yw ffermwyr yn awyddus i’w defnyddio’n ddifeddwl neu’n afradlon. A dweud y gwir, yn ystod y degawd diwethaf, bu gostyngiad o fwy na 25 y cant yn y nitradau a ddefnyddir yn wrtaith. Bydd amgylchiadau’n newid wrth i arferion amaethyddol newid, ac mae hyn yn golygu llai o drwytholchi nitrogen. Mae nifer y da byw’n gostwng, a bu gostyngiad o 40 y cant yn y nitrogen a ddefnyddir yn wrtaith er pan oedd yr arfer hwnnw yn ei anterth yn 1987. Pethau eraill pwysig sy’n sbarduno newid yw ymchwil a datblygu ym maes cnydau; bu cynnydd yn y cnydau a ddefnyddir wrth i fathau newydd ymddangos. Mae cynlluniau amaeth-amgylcheddol a’r rheolau trawsgydymffurfio cyffredinol, a gyflwynwyd yn 2005, hefyd yn cyfrannu at leihau nitrogen.

This regulation proposes a closed period during which the spreading of slurry will be banned. This has two very serious impacts on farmers: as well as observing the closed period for slurry spreading, farmers in nitrate vulnerable zones will have to make massive investments in new infrastructure to store the stuff.

Mae’r rheoliad hwn yn cynnig cyfnod gwahardd, ac yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw gwaherddir taenu slyri. Caiff hyn ddwy effaith ddifrifol iawn ar ffermwyr: yn ogystal â chydymffurfio â’r gwaharddiad ar daenu slyri, bydd ffermwyr mewn parthau perygl nitradau yn gorfod buddsoddi arian mawr mewn seilwaith newydd er mwyn ei storio.

I will give you three examples of why I think that this is unnecessary. According to figures in the consultation, the storage of slurry will increase ammonia emissions from spreading manure by 9 per cent. We already know from experience in the Netherlands that farmers will inevitably be forced to empty their slurry pits on the first fine day after the winter spreading ban comes to an end. Therefore, instead of slurry being spread little and often, when soil and weather conditions make it safe to do so, it will all be unloaded at once, creating not only the most almighty stink but also, if heavy rainfall was to follow soon afterwards, the most almighty pollution risk. We therefore argue that there is not sufficient justification for the introduction of these regulations.

Rhoddaf dair enghraifft ichi i ddangos pam nad oes angen hyn. Yn ôl y ffigurau yn yr ymgynghori, bydd storio slyri’n golygu cynnydd o 9 y cant yn yr amonia a ollyngir wrth chwalu tail. Gwyddom eisoes o brofiad yr Iseldiroedd y bydd yn anochel fod ffermwyr yn gorfod gwagio’u pyllau slyri ar y diwrnod braf cyntaf ar ôl diwedd y gwaharddiad ar daenu yn y gaeaf. Felly, yn lle bod y slyri’n cael ei daenu fesul tipyn ac yn aml, pan fydd cyflwr y pridd a’r tywydd yn golygu ei bod yn ddiogel gwneud hynny, caiff y cyfan ei ddadlwytho ar unwaith, gan greu nid yn unig y drewdod mwyaf ofnadwy, ond hefyd, petai’n bwrw glaw’n drwm yn fuan wedyn, y perygl mwyaf ofnadwy o lygredd. Dadleuwn felly nad oes digon o gyfiawnhad dros gyflwyno’r rheoliadau hyn.

I praise the hard work done by the farming Yr wyf yn canmol gwaith caled undebau’r

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unions in campaigning against these regulations, particularly the NFU, which came to the Assembly last summer to raise awareness of the issues.

ffermwyr yn ymgyrchu yn erbyn y rheoliadau hyn, yn enwedig yr NFU, a ddaeth i’r Cynulliad yr haf diwethaf i godi ymwybyddiaeth o’r problemau.

I raise specific concerns in relation to the appeals process. I am concerned that these regulations, as they currently stand, will not allow farmers to make proper appeals against the designations. I understand that the planning inspectorate will hear appeals on behalf of the Welsh Assembly Government, but the Welsh Assembly Government website states that this could change. I would like to hear clarification from the Minister on that particular issue.

Codaf bryderon penodol ynglŷn â’r broses apelio. Yr wyf yn poeni na fydd y rheoliadau hyn, fel y maent ar hyn o bryd, yn caniatáu i ffermwyr apelio’n iawn yn erbyn y dynodiadau. Deallaf y bydd yr arolygiaeth cynllunio yn gwrando apeliadau ar ran Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, ond dywed gwefan Llywodraeth y Cynulliad y gallai hyn newid. Hoffwn glywed eglurhad gan y Gweinidog ar y mater penodol hwnnw.

Some appeals are likely to be highly technical in nature. Will the planning inspectorate have that highly technical knowledge to make crucial and important decisions on appeals? The planning inspectorate must be at arm’s length from the Welsh Assembly Government, in order to provide an independent appeals mechanism so that farmers and growers can challenge the evidence base for new designated and older nitrate vulnerable zones. It is also essential that there is unfettered access to the appeals mechanism, with no prior screening of appeals by the Welsh Assembly Government, and that all appeals can go forward for consideration by the planning inspectorate. It is vitally important that everyone who wishes to have access to an oral appeals hearing is able to do so. The deadline of 31 March 2009 for the submission of a written appeal is very tight.

Mae rhai apeliadau’n debygol o fod yn dechnegol iawn eu natur. A fydd gan yr arolygiaeth cynllunio y wybodaeth dechnegol fanwl honno i allu gwneud penderfyniadau hanfodol a phwysig ynglŷn ag apeliadau? Rhaid i’r arolygiaeth cynllunio fod hyd braich oddi wrth Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, er mwyn iddi gynnig mecanwaith apelio annibynnol fel y gall ffermwyr a thyfwyr herio’r sylfaen dystiolaeth ar gyfer parthau perygl nitradau a ddynodir o’r newydd ac ar gyfer parthau hŷn. Mae’n hanfodol hefyd fod modd i bobl ddefnyddio’r mecanwaith apelio’n gwbl ddilyffethair, heb i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad sgrinio apeliadau ymlaen llaw, a bod modd i bob apêl fynd gerbron yr arolygiaeth cynllunio i’w hystyried. Mae’n hollbwysig fod modd i bawb sy’n dymuno cael gwrandawiad llafar i’w hapêl gael gwrandawiad o’r fath. Nid yw’r dyddiad cau, 31 Mawrth 2009, ar gyfer cyflwyno apêl ysgrifenedig yn rhoi fawr i amser i bobl.

There is clear evidence in Wales that nitrate levels are falling. It is sad that these regulations will be yet another burden on our fine industry. However, I hope that some of the issues raised during this debate, and on the appeals process in particular, will be addressed and that, eventually, we can minimise the impact of these regulations on the agriculture industry in Wales.

Mae tystiolaeth amlwg yng Nghymru fod lefelau nitradau’n gostwng. Mae’n drist fod y rheoliadau hyn i fod yn faich arall eto fyth ar ein diwydiant clodwiw. Serch hynny, gobeithio y rhoddir sylw i rai o’r materion a godir yn ystod y ddadl hon, ac i’r broses apelio’n benodol, ac y gallwn, maes o law, liniaru effaith y rheoliadau hyn ar y diwydiant amaethyddol yng Nghymru.

3.00 p.m.

Brynle Williams: It is a great pleasure to support my colleague, Mick Bates, and the Liberal Democrats on this matter. As far as I

Brynle Williams: Mae’n bleser mawr gennyf gefnogi fy nghyd-Aelod, Mick Bates, a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn y cyswllt hwn.

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am concerned, this legislation is another example of the idiotic regulations that have come to this country. Once again, we are gold-plating them. As Mick has pointed out, when it becomes open season on slurry spreading, if we have heavy rain after it is spread, it will just pour out over the land. This is not acceptable. The present system is working. You have heard the evidence that Mick has plainly put forward—nitrate levels are dropping.

Yn fy marn i, enghraifft arall yw’r ddeddfwriaeth hon o’r rheoliadau hurt sydd wedi dod i’r wlad hon. Unwaith eto, yr ydym yn eu heuro. Fel y dywedodd Mick, pan ddaw tymor y gwaharddiad ar daenu slyri i ben, os cawn law trwm ar ôl ei daenu bydd yn llifo dros y tir. Nid yw hyn yn dderbyniol. Mae’r drefn bresennol yn gweithio. Yr ydych wedi clywed y dystiolaeth a gyflwynwyd yn blaen gan Mick—mae lefelau nitradau’n gostwng.

Mick has gone through the regulatory aspect, but I would like to concentrate a little more on the common sense aspect of this. The latest expansion of nitrate-vulnerable zones has been done on the basis of less than convincing evidence, and it will mean massive costs for the farm businesses affected. Yes, I am standing up and saying that a massive cost is being imposed on farm businesses. No doubt, the Minister will say that it is a cost that these businesses will have to stand, but there is no evidence to prove that we must do this, with nitrate levels dropping. In previous expansions, the extra regulatory burden was backed by grant aid support being made available, but, this time, there will be no support for compliance, and many farms cannot afford to comply and will face going out of business.

Mae Mick wedi sôn am yr elfen reoleiddio, ond hoffwn i ganolbwyntio ychydig mwy ar yr elfen synnwyr cyffredin yn hyn. Mae’r ehangu diweddaraf ar barthau perygl nitradau wedi’i seilio ar dystiolaeth nad yw’n darbwyllo, a bydd yn golygu costau aruthrol i’r busnesau fferm y bydd yn effeithio arnynt. Ydwyf, yr wyf yn sefyll ar fy nhraed ac yn dweud bod cost aruthrol yn cael ei gorfodi ar fusnesau fferm. Mae’n sicr y bydd y Gweinidog yn dweud ei bod yn gost y bydd yn rhaid i’r busnesau hyn ei dwyn, ond nid oes tystiolaeth i ddangos ei bod yn rhaid inni wneud hyn, gan fod lefelau nitradau’n gostwng. Pan ehangwyd parthau o’r blaen, darparwyd cymorth grant i gyd-fynd â’r baich rheoleiddio ychwanegol, ond y tro hwn ni fydd cymorth ar gyfer cydymffurfio, ac mae llawer o ffermydd na allant fforddio cydymffurfio a byddant yn wynebu posibilrwydd mynd i’r wal.

Mick made reference to evidence from the NFU last year. A gentleman from Stackpole Farms Ltd came in, which milks some 1,200 cows. This has been said in the Chamber before. He is on what is called the New Zealand system, where the cattle are mostly kept outside. They are kept indoors for only four weeks of the year. However, the law says that he must provide storage for five and half months. That will mean 1.5 or 2 acres of land, or possibly more. That brings me to another question that arose last week, namely planning costs. I understand that the application is made according to square footage. You have to apply for planning permission for a slurry store of 2 acres—that is quite feasible with large dairy herds—and you are looking at somewhere between £5,000 and £10,000 for the planning application alone. I am sorry, but that does not make sense. There is also the appeals

Cyfeiriodd Mick at dystiolaeth a gafwyd gan Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Amaethwyr y llynedd. Daeth gŵr bonheddig o Stackpole Farms Cyf i mewn, busnes sy’n godro tua 1,200 o fuchod. Dywedwyd hyn yn y Siambr o’r blaen. Mae’n dilyn yr hyn a elwir yn system Seland Newydd, lle cedwir y gwartheg y tu allan gan mwyaf. Fe’u cedwir dan do am bedair wythnos y flwyddyn yn unig. Er hynny, dywed y gyfraith ei bod yn rhaid iddo ddarparu mannau cadw am bum mis a hanner. Bydd hynny’n golygu 1.5 neu 2 erw o dir, neu fwy o bosibl. Mae hynny’n dod â mi at gwestiwn arall a gododd yr wythnos diwethaf, sef costau cynllunio. Deallaf fod y cais yn cael ei wneud yn ôl y droedfedd sgwâr. Rhaid ichi wneud cais am ganiatâd cynllunio ar gyfer storfa slyri o 2 erw—mae hynny’n eithaf posibl os oes buches odro fawr—a byddwch yn wynebu cost rhwng £5,000 a £10,000 am y cais

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situation, which Mick has alluded to. We have planning inspectors sitting in judgment on matters of which they do not have any experience. This is a very important issue; it will not affect the whole of Wales, but it will affect the major dairy herds and milk producers. We are losing enough of them as it is. These regulations are disproportionate, costly and unnecessary, and the Welsh Conservatives fully support their annulment.

cynllunio’n unig. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, ond nid yw hynny’n gwneud synnwyr. Dyna’r sefyllfa o ran apeliadau hefyd, fel y mae Mick wedi cyfeirio ati. Mae gennym arolygwyr cynllunio sy’n barnu ar faterion nad oes ganddynt brofiad ohonynt. Mae’r mater hwn yn un pwysig iawn; ni fydd yn effeithio ar Gymru gyfan, ond bydd yn effeithio ar y buchesau godro a’r cynhyrchwyr llaeth mwyaf. Yr ydym yn colli digon ohonynt fel y mae. Mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn anghymesur, yn gostus ac yn ddiangen, ac mae’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn llwyr o blaid eu dirymu.

The Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing (Jane Davidson): It is probably useful for me to point out at the beginning of my contribution that member states do not have an opt-out on environmental directives. We have the option of either applying the action programmes throughout our natural territory or in specific areas. I think that I can bring a little balance to this debate by pointing out that Northern Ireland chose to apply this throughout its territory 100 per cent; England has gone for a catchment-led approach and modelled 70 per cent; Scotland is at 25 per cent, and Wales has gone up 1 per cent, from 3 per cent to 4 per cent. That indicates that we have made a fair, proportionate and evidence-based response to the implementation of this nitrates directive.

Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai (Jane Davidson): Mae’n debyg ei bod yn fuddiol imi ddweud ar ddechrau fy nghyfraniad nad oes hawl gan aelod-wladwriaethau i ymeithrio o gyfarwyddebau amgylcheddol. Mae’r dewis gennym un ai i gymhwyso’r rhaglenni gweithredu ledled ein tiriogaeth naturiol neu mewn ardaloedd penodol. Credaf y gallaf roi ychydig gydbwysedd yn y ddadl hon drwy ddweud bod Gogledd Iwerddon wedi dewis cymhwyso hyn ledled ei thiriogaeth; bod Lloegr wedi dewis dull wedi’i seilio ar ddalgylchoedd ac wedi modelu 70 y cant; mae’r Alban ar 25 y cant, ac mae Cymru wedi codi 1 y cant, o 3 y cant i 4 y cant. Mae hynny’n dangos ein bod wedi ymateb yn deg, yn gymesur ac ar sail tystiolaeth wrth weithredu’r gyfarwyddeb nitradau hon.

The regulations were laid before the Assembly on 9 December 2008, and I point out to Members that, if this annulment motion were to be carried, the European Commission would consider us to have failed to implement the directive adequately and would be highly likely to commence infraction proceedings. It has done so in other member states already. We consulted widely in 2007 and 2008 on that designation of only an additional 1 per cent in the nitrate vulnerable zones and on our detailed action programme proposals. Those proposals followed a rigorous scientific assessment of surface water quality in Wales conducted by the Environment Agency. Therefore, our small, but appropriate, additional designation is on the basis of evidence. Every effort is now being made to help farmers and landowners to understand the requirements of

Gosodwyd y rheoliadau gerbron y Cynulliad ar 9 Rhagfyr 2008, a thynnaf sylw Aelodau at y ffaith y byddai’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, pe derbynnid y cynnig hwn o blaid dirymu, yn barnu ein bod wedi methu â gweithredu’r gyfarwyddeb yn ddigonol ac y byddai’n dra tebygol o gychwyn achos o dor-dyletswydd. Mae eisoes wedi gwneud hynny mewn aelod-wladwriaethau eraill. Buom yn ymgynghori’n helaeth yn 2007 a 2008 ar y dynodi hwnnw ar 1 y cant yn ychwanegol yn unig yn y parthau perygl nitradau ac ar ein cynigion manwl ar gyfer y rhaglen weithredu. Yr oedd y cynigion hynny’n dilyn asesiad gwyddonol trwyadl o ansawdd dŵr wyneb yng Nghymru a wnaed gan Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Felly, mae ein dynodiad ychwanegol bach, ond priodol, wedi’i seilio ar dystiolaeth. Gwneir pob ymdrech yn awr i helpu ffermwyr a thirfeddianwyr i ddeall gofynion

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the regulations, and all farmers and landowners in existing and newly designated nitrate-vulnerable zones have been notified and informed of the guidance available on the action programme measures and on the appeals processes.

y rheoliadau, ac mae’r holl ffermwyr a’r tirfeddianwyr yn y parthau perygl nitradau presennol a’r rheini sydd wedi’u dynodi o’r newydd, wedi cael gwybod am yr arweiniad sydd ar gael ar fesurau’r rhaglen weithredu ac ar y prosesau ar gyfer apeliadau.

The right to appeal against the inclusion of land within NVZs can be exercised up to 31 March 2009 in Wales; the deadline in England was 31 January. The scope of the appeals is also wider, because we are allowing owners and occupiers of lands included in previous NVZs, in 1996 or 2002, to be included, whereas in England, the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has limited the right of appeal to land within the newly designated NVZs only.

Gellir arfer yr hawl i apelio yn erbyn cynnwys tir mewn parthau perygl nitradau tan 31 Mawrth 2009 yng Nghymru; y terfyn amser yn Lloegr oedd 31 Ionawr. Mae cwmpas yr apeliadau’n ehangach hefyd, oherwydd yr ydym yn caniatáu cynnwys perchnogion a deiliaid tiroedd a gynhwyswyd mewn parthau perygl nitradau blaenorol, yn 1996 neu 2002. Ond yn Lloegr mae Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig wedi cyfyngu’r hawl i apelio i dir o fewn y parthau perygl nitradau sydd wedi’u dynodi o’r newydd.

The point that if we annul these regulations the European Commission will consider that we have failed to implement adequately the nitrates directive and will commence infraction proceedings against us is a critical one. The commission won both previous cases taken to the European Court of Justice. An annulment of the regulations would leave the UK, and Wales in particular, open to criticism by the commission. We may be compelled to undertake another round of consultation, designate more land in Wales as nitrate vulnerable zones, and apply more stringent standards. We, as the Assembly Government, want to ensure that we comply with European legislation that protects our natural environment while, at the same time, ensuring the best outcome for those most affected. We have done that.

Mae’r pwynt y bydd y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, os dirymwn y rheoliadau hyn, yn barnu ein bod wedi methu â gweithredu’r gyfarwyddeb nitradau’n ddigonol ac yn cychwyn achos o dor-dyletswydd yn ein herbyn yn un hollbwysig. Enillodd y comisiwn y ddau achos blaenorol a ddygwyd gerbron Llys Cyfiawnder Ewrop. Byddai dirymu’r rheoliadau’n gadael y DU, a Chymru’n benodol, yn agored i feirniadaeth gan y comisiwn. Gallem gael ein gorfodi y gynnal cylch ymgynghori arall, dynodi mwy o dir yng Nghymru’n barthau perygl nitradau, a defnyddio safonau mwy caeth. Yr ydym ni, fel Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, am sicrhau ein bod yn cydymffurfio â deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd sy’n diogelu ein hamgylchedd naturiol gan sicrhau, ar yr un pryd, y canlyniad gorau i’r rheini yr effeithir arnynt fwyaf. Yr ydym wedi gwneud hynny.

Mick Bates: I appreciate what the Minister had to say about the implementation differentials that exist within the UK and throughout Europe. However, have you considered the effectiveness of the current regulations, particularly the winter ban on spreading slurry? That is counter-productive. For example, an organic farmer, whom your Government is trying to encourage—I think that we would all sign up to that—will have to store this slurry or spread it thickly before the ban comes into effect. While I understand what you have said, you do not appear to

Mick Bates: Yr wyf yn cydnabod yr hyn a ddywedodd y Gweinidog am y gwahanredion gweithredu a geir o fewn y DU a ledled Ewrop. Fodd bynnag, a ydych wedi ystyried effeithiolrwydd y rheoliadau presennol, yn enwedig y gwaharddiad yn y gaeaf ar daenu slyri? Mae hwnnw’n wrthgynhyrchiol. Er enghraifft, bydd ffermwr organig, y mae’ch Llywodraeth yn ceisio’i gefnogi—credaf y byddem i gyd yn derbyn hynny—yn gorfod storio slyri o’r fath neu ei daenu’n drwchus cyn i’r gwaharddiad ddod i rym. Er fy mod yn deall beth yr ydych wedi’i ddweud, nid

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understand the practical impact of the regulations. That consideration is vital to an industry that performs such an important role in Wales.

yw’n ymddangos eich bod yn deall effaith ymarferol y rheoliadau. Mae ystyriaeth o’r fath yn hollbwysig i ddiwydiant sydd â rhan mor bwysig yng Nghymru.

You did not take the opportunity while you were on your feet—I was hoping to intervene to ensure that you did so—to clarify the particular point on your website about whether the Planning Inspectorate will deal with appeals. It is important that the industry knows that. I can see you nodding, Minister, so I put it on record that clarification has been received that the Planning Inspectorate will deal with appeals. Thank you for that. I hope that, when we undertake regulatory appraisal of all such legislation, its practical impact is well understood. At this time of recession, Governments should do everything possible to encourage business growth, not hinder it.

Ni ddaliasoch ar y cyfle tra oeddech ar eich traed—yr oeddwn yn gobeithio ymyrryd i sicrhau y gwnaech hynny—i egluro’r pwynt penodol ar eich gwefan am y cwestiwn a fydd yr Arolygiaeth Gynllunio yn delio ag apeliadau. Mae’n bwysig i’r diwydiant wybod hynny. Gallaf weld eich bod yn nodio’ch pen, Weinidog, felly, cofnodaf fod eglurhad wedi’i roi y bydd yr Arolygiaeth Gynllunio yn delio ag apeliadau. Diolch i chi am hynny. Gobeithio, pan ymgymerwn ag arfarniad rheoliadol o bob deddfwriaeth o’r fath, y deellir ei heffaith ymarferol yn iawn. Mewn cyfnod o ddirwasgiad fel hwn, dylai Llywodraethau wneud popeth yn eu gallu i hybu twf busnes, nid ei rwystro.

Y Llywydd: Y cynnig yw derbyn y cynnig. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod gwrthwynebiad, felly gohiriaf y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

The Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? I see that there are objections. I will therefore postpone the voting until voting time.

Gohiriwyd y bleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.Vote deferred until voting time.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (Rosemary Butler) i’r Gadair am 3.08 p.m.The Deputy Presiding Officer (Rosemary Butler) took the Chair at 3.08 p.m.

Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Plant a Phobl Ifanc ar Dlodi Plant yng Nghymru: Ai Addysg yw’r Ateb?

The Children and Young People Committee’s Report into Child Poverty in Wales: Eradication through Education

Helen Mary Jones: Cynigiaf fod Helen Mary Jones: I propose that

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, the National Assembly for Wales:

yn nodi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Plant a Phobl Ifanc, ‘Tlodi Plant yng Nghymru: Ai Addysg yw’r Ateb?’ a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 18 Tachwedd 2008. (NDM4128)

notes the report of the Children and Young People Committee ‘Child Poverty in Wales: Eradication through Education?’ which was laid in the Table Office on 18 November 2008. (NDM4128)

I am pleased and privileged to present this report formally to the Assembly this afternoon. I thank all involved in its preparation, starting with the committee members, who have all shown huge commitment. It has been a lot of work for a small number of people—we are a small

Yr wyf yn falch cyflwyno’r adroddiad hwn yn ffurfiol i’r Cynulliad y prynhawn yma, ac ystyriaf hyn yn fraint. Diolch i bawb a fu’n ymwneud â’i baratoi, gan ddechrau gydag aelodau’r pwyllgor. Mae pob un ohonynt wedi dangos ymroddiad enfawr. Bu’n waith mawr i nifer fach o bobl—pwyllgor bach

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committee. I am particularly grateful for Members’ willingness to undertake rapporteur visits, such as that which we undertook to the On-Track project in the Rhondda. When we are seeking the views of children and young people, it is important that we go out to meet them as well as inviting them in to meet us. Members have been very willing to undertake duties over and above what is required.

ydym ni. Yr wyf yn neilltuol o ddiolchgar am barodrwydd Aelodau i ymgymryd ag ymweliadau fel rapporteurs, fel ein hymweliad â’r prosiect On-Track yn Rhondda. Pan fyddwn yn ceisio barn plant a phobl ifanc, mae’n bwysig inni fynd allan i gwrdd â hwy yn ogystal â’u gwahodd hwy i gwrdd â ni. Mae Aelodau wedi bod yn barod iawn i dderbyn dyletswyddau yn ogystal â’r hyn sy’n ofynnol.

I also take this opportunity to thank Eleanor Burnham, who recently stood down from our committee, and Ann Jones, who has been acting as a regular substitute for Lynne Neagle. Both have made a major contribution to the preparation of this report and to the committee’s work in general.

Daliaf ar y cyfle hwn hefyd i ddiolch i Eleanor Burnham, a ymddiswyddodd o’n pwyllgor yn ddiweddar, ac i Ann Jones, sydd wedi bod yn gweithredu fel dirprwy’n rheolaidd dros Lynne Neagle. Mae’r ddwy wedi cyfrannu’n fawr at baratoi’r adroddiad hwn ac at waith y pwyllgor yn gyffredinol.

3.10 p.m.

I also thank all the staff who support our committee—the clerks, the research team and the legal team—we could not do our work without them, and we are grateful to them all. We are also grateful to all those who gave evidence, including the Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills, the Minister for Social Justice and Local Government and the Deputy Minister for Regeneration, all three of whom were generous with their time and information. I thank representatives of local government, the teaching unions and the children and young people’s organisations, and am also grateful for the academic input that we received. I also put on record the committee’s thanks to Huw Lewis, who was very helpful to us in the early stages of our deliberations. I am particularly grateful, as we all are, to the children and young people who gave evidence. Their testimonies were sometimes painful to hear, sometimes controversial and always challenging. They gave us their time and they told us their truths, with honesty and courage. Their experiences have been a major influence on the development of this report, and as a committee we are indebted to them.

Diolch hefyd i’r holl staff sy’n cynorthwyo ein pwyllgor—y clercod, y tîm ymchwil a’r tîm cyfreithiol—ni allem wneud ein gwaith hebddynt, ac yr ydym yn ddiolchgar iddynt bob un. Yr ydym hefyd yn ddiolchgar i bawb a roddodd dystiolaeth, gan gynnwys y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau, y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol a’r Dirprwy Weinidog dros Adfywio. Rhoddodd y tri ohonynt yn hael o’u hamser a’u gwybodaeth. Diolch i gynrychiolwyr llywodraeth leol, yr undebau addysgu a chyrff plant a phobl ifanc, ac yr wyf hefyd yn ddiolchgar am y cyfraniad academaidd a gawsom. Yr wyf hefyd yn cofnodi diolch y pwyllgor i Huw Lewis, a oedd o gymorth mawr inni ar ddechrau ein trafodion. Yr wyf yn neilltuol o ddiolchgar, fel yr ydym i gyd, i’r plant a’r bobl ifanc a roddodd dystiolaeth. Yr oedd eu tystiolaeth weithiau’n boenus i’w chlywed, weithiau’n ddadleuol a bob amser yn heriol. Rhoesant o’u hamser inni a dweud eu gwirioneddau wrthym, yn onest ac yn ddewr. Mae eu profiadau wedi bod yn ddylanwad mawr ar ddatblygiad yr adroddiad hwn, ac yr ydym fel pwyllgor yn ddyledus iddynt.

I do not feel the need to take the Assembly’s time to set out the background and our reasons as a committee for undertaking this review. The facts about the scourge that is child poverty have been well rehearsed in this

Ni theimlaf fod angen cymryd amser y Cynulliad i egluro’r cyd-destun a’n rhesymau fel pwyllgor dros ymgymryd â’r adolygiad hwn. Mae’r ffeithiau am felltith tlodi plant wedi’u trafod yn helaeth yn y Siambr hon

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Chamber on many occasions over many years. However, it may be worth explaining why we decided to focus on the Government’s delivery through the education service. We did so because schools are the one public service that touches the lives of all of our children and young people. It seemed to us, therefore, that that was the right place to start our scrutiny, as a committee, of the Government’s delivery on its child poverty commitments. Overall, we identified some good and innovative practice that was making a huge difference and we identified some areas of concern, but, above all, we found a lack of strategic co-ordination from the Government. I therefore very much welcome the Government’s decision to accept, or accept in principle, all of our recommendations; we are grateful to the Ministers for that. I have been left, however, unsure how, and, frankly, unconvinced that, the actions or proposed actions outlined in some of the Government’s responses, where it is accepting our recommendations in principle, will deliver the outcomes that we, as a committee, seek and that we believe that the children of Wales who are living in poverty need. I will raise some of these concerns in this debate today, in the hope that Ministers will be able to provide clarity and reassurance, either today or at a later date. I only have time to touch on a few of these concerns, because I want to have time to respond to this debate, therefore I will be raising some of them in writing with Ministers.

lawer tro dros flynyddoedd lawer. Er hynny, gallai fod yn werth egluro pam y penderfynasom ganolbwyntio ar yr hyn a ddarperir gan y Llywodraeth drwy’r gwasanaeth addysg. Gwnaethom hynny am mai ysgolion yw’r unig wasanaeth cyhoeddus sy’n cyffwrdd â bywydau pob un o’n plant a’n pobl ifanc. Ymddangosai i ni, felly, mai hwnnw oedd y lle priodol inni ddechrau ein gwaith o graffu, fel pwyllgor, ar y modd y mae’r Llywodraeth yn cyflawni ei hymrwymiadau ar dlodi plant. Yn gyffredinol, nodwyd rhai arferion da ac arloesol gennym a oedd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth aruthrol, a nodwyd rhai meysydd a oedd yn achosi pryder, ond yn anad dim cawsom fod diffyg cydgysylltu strategol ar ran y Llywodraeth. Oherwydd hynny, yr wyf yn croesawu’n fawr iawn benderfyniad y Llywodraeth i dderbyn, neu i dderbyn egwyddor, ein hargymhellion i gyd; yr ydym yn ddiolchgar i’r Gweinidogion am hynny. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn teimlo’n ansicr sut, a dweud y gwir, y bydd y camau gweithredu neu’r camau gweithredu arfaethedig a ddisgrifiwyd yn rhai o ymatebion y Llywodraeth, lle y mae’n derbyn egwyddor ein hargymhellion, yn sicrhau’r canlyniadau a geisiwn fel pwyllgor ac y credwn fod eu hangen ar blant yng Nghymru sy’n byw mewn tlodi. Nid wyf wedi fy narbwyllo o hynny. Byddaf yn codi rhai o’r pryderon hyn yn y ddadl hon heddiw, gan obeithio y bydd Gweinidogion yn gallu cynnig eglurhad a sicrwydd, un ai heddiw ynteu yn y dyfodol. Nid oes gennyf amser dim ond i gyfeirio at rai o’r pryderon hyn, oherwydd yr wyf am gael amser i ymateb i’r ddadl hon. Felly, byddaf yn codi rhai ohonynt drwy ysgrifennu at y Gweinidogion.

I will begin with recommendation 6, on non-recurrent funding. The Government accepts this recommendation in principle, but its detailed response is rather too complex. I ask the Government today whether it will or will not make such non-recurrent funding contingent on the local authority’s being able to show how the resources will help it to tackle child poverty. I would also be grateful if the Minister could give us a timeframe for the consideration of monitoring arrangements and outcome setting that is referred to in the Government’s response. This recommendation is specific, and we feel that

Dechreuaf gydag argymhelliad 6, ar ariannu nad yw’n rheolaidd. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn derbyn egwyddor yr argymhelliad hwn, ond mae ei hymateb manwl braidd yn rhy gymhleth. Gofynnaf i’r Llywodraeth heddiw a fydd yn gwneud ariannu felly nad yw’n rheolaidd yn amodol ai peidio ar allu’r awdurdod lleol i ddangos sut y bydd yr adnoddau’n ei helpu i fynd i’r afael â thlodi plant. Byddwn hefyd yn ddiolchgar pe gallai’r Gweinidog roi amserlen inni ar gyfer ystyried trefniadau monitro a phennu canlyniadau y cyfeirir atynt yn ymateb y Llywodraeth. Mae’r argymhelliad hwn yn un

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it needs a more specific response. penodol, a theimlwn fod angen ymateb mwy penodol iddo.

On recommendation 11, with regard to teacher training, we received clear evidence that good intentions by teaching staff were sometimes hampered by a lack of awareness, and that, sometimes, that lack of awareness could have devastating consequences for the children at the receiving end. It is vital, therefore, that school staff are enabled to understand the effects of poverty on children’s lives and on their ability to learn, and are enabled to mitigate those effects. I urge the Minister to assure us today that this will be included in future teacher training. Surely we do not need further consultation to demonstrate that this is a must.

Ynghylch argymhelliad 11, gyda golwg ar hyfforddi athrawon, cawsom dystiolaeth bendant fod bwriadau da ar ran staff addysgu yn cael eu llesteirio weithiau gan ddiffyg ymwybyddiaeth, ac weithiau y gallai diffyg ymwybyddiaeth o’r fath arwain at ganlyniadau dinistriol i’r plant y mae’n effeithio arnynt. Mae’n hollbwysig, felly, i staff ysgolion gael eu galluogi i ddeall effeithiau tlodi ar fywydau plant ac ar eu gallu i ddysgu, a’u galluogi i liniaru’r effeithiau hynny. Anogaf y Gweinidog i’n sicrhau heddiw y bydd hyn wedi’i gynnwys mewn hyfforddiant i athrawon yn y dyfodol. Does bosibl fod arnom angen ymgynghori pellach i ddangos bod hyn yn rheidrwydd.

With regard to recommendation 12, on the national workload agreement, which was accepted in principle, we received much evidence of excellent practice and commitment from schools and individual teachers, and the effects of that good practice can transform the lives and chances of children. We also heard some—I stress that it was a minority—of the ‘our job is to teach, and just that’ approach. Children cannot learn if they are tired, hungry or feel humiliated and alienated. We must ensure that the workload agreement, under which some staff are rightly awarded for pastoral specialisms, is never used as a reason for other staff to see pupils’ welfare as somehow not being their concern. I am very glad that the Government accepts our recommendation in this regard in principle, but it is less than clear from the detailed response what exactly the Government will do about it. I hope that the Minister will be able to clarify that today.

O ran argymhelliad 12, ynghylch y cytundeb cenedlaethol ar lwyth gwaith, a gafodd ei dderbyn mewn egwyddor, cawsom lawer o dystiolaeth am arferion ac ymroddiad rhagorol gan ysgolion ac athrawon unigol, ac mae effeithiau arferion da o’r fath yn gallu trawsnewid bywydau a chyfleoedd plant. Clywsom gan rai hefyd—a phwysleisiaf mai lleiafrif oeddent—a gredai mai eu gwaith yw addysgu, a hynny’n unig. Ni all plant ddysgu os ydynt yn flinedig, yn newynog neu’n teimlo’n benisel ac wedi’u dieithrio. Rhaid inni sicrhau na chaiff y cytundeb llwyth gwaith, lle caiff rhai staff eu gwobrwyo’n briodol dan ei delerau am arbenigaethau bugeiliol, fyth ei ddefnyddio fel rheswm i staff eraill ystyried nad yw lles disgyblion rywsut yn fusnes iddynt hwy. Yr wyf yn falch iawn fod y Llywodraeth yn derbyn egwyddor ein hargymhelliad ar hyn, ond nid yw’n eglur yn yr ymateb manwl beth yn union a wnaiff y Llywodraeth yn ei gylch. Gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog yn gallu egluro hynny heddiw.

Perhaps most important of all for turning the Government’s undoubted commitment to the principle of ending child poverty into real changes for poor children now is our recommendation 4. In that, we ask for the publication of targets for each ministerial portfolio, for the publication of an annual report on the progress made towards those targets, and an annual debate in the Assembly so that we can monitor progress. Again, the

Efallai mai’r peth pwysicaf oll o ran troi ymrwymiad sicr y Llywodraeth i egwyddor dileu tlodi plant yn newidiadau gwirioneddol i blant tlawd yn awr yw ein hargymhelliad 4. Yn hwnnw gofynnwn am y gyhoeddi targedau ar gyfer pob portffolio gweinidogol, cyhoeddi adroddiad blynyddol ar y cynnydd a wnaethpwyd tuag at y targedau hynny, a dadl flynyddol yn y Cynulliad er mwyn inni allu monitro cynnydd. Unwaith eto, mae’r

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Government accepts the recommendation in principle, but the detailed response sets out what the Government has already done or was intending to do anyway. I must say to the Minister that the committee knew all that already. The Ministers and their colleagues were very generous in providing information about current action and future plans, and we were grateful for that, but we concluded that we needed to go further and that we needed more clarity. We asked you to present your targets more accessibly, to publish your progress more clearly, and to bring forward an annual debate at which we could all, as an Assembly, test you. If you feel that there is no need to do that, we must accept that; it is your privilege as a Government to reject committees’ recommendations, but this is too specific to be accepted in principle and not in its entirety. I ask that the Cabinet committee on children and young people looks at this recommendation again and decides either to accept it or to reject it. It is much too specific for an in-principle acceptance.

Llywodraeth yn derbyn egwyddor yr argymhelliad, ond mae’r ymateb manwl yn gosod allan yr hyn y mae’r Llywodraeth eisoes wedi ei wneud neu’r hyn yr oedd yn bwriadu ei wneud beth bynnag. Rhaid imi ddweud wrth y Gweinidog fod y pwyllgor eisoes yn gwybod hynny i gyd. Yr oedd y Gweinidogion a’u cyd-Aelodau’n hael iawn wrth ddarparu gwybodaeth am y camau cyfredol a chynlluniau’r dyfodol, ac yr oeddem yn ddiolchgar am hynny. Ond daethom i’r casgliad fod angen inni fynd ymhellach a bod arnom angen mwy o eglurder. Gofynasom ichi gyflwyno’ch targedau mewn ffordd fwy hwylus, i gyhoeddi’ch cynnydd yn fwy eglur, ac i gyflwyno dadl flynyddol lle y gallem oll, fel Cynulliad, eich rhoi ar brawf. Os teimlwch nad oes angen gwneud hynny, rhaid inni dderbyn hynny; eich braint chi fel Llywodraeth yw gwrthod argymhellion pwyllgorau, ond mae hwn yn rhy benodol i’w dderbyn mewn egwyddor ac nid yn ei gyfanrwydd. Gofynnaf i bwyllgor y Cabinet ar blant a phobl ifanc edrych ar yr argymhelliad hwn eto a phenderfynu naill ai ei dderbyn ynteu ei wrthod. Mae’n llawer rhy benodol i’w dderbyn mewn egwyddor.

After undertaking this piece of work, our committee was left in no doubt about the genuine concern of the Government and all the Ministers from whom we took evidence as individuals about the effects of poverty on children’s present lives and future prospects. It could not have been clearer. We also did not have any doubt about the genuine wish to see change. Of course, we acknowledge that many of the levers needed to tackle child poverty, such as taxation, the benefits system and the setting of the minimum wage, are not—unfortunately, in my personal opinion—in our Ministers’ hands. However, we found a real need for much stronger strategic direction and drive. The Government’s response to our report suggests that concrete steps are being taken towards delivering that direction and drive, but we remain concerned about the speed and vigour of this direction of travel.

Ar ôl ymgymryd â’r darn hwn o waith, nid oedd amheuaeth gan ein pwyllgor am bryder gwirioneddol y Llywodraeth a’r holl Weinidogion y cawsom dystiolaeth ganddynt fel unigolion am effeithiau tlodi ar fywydau presennol plant a’u rhagolygon ar gyfer y dyfodol. Ni allasai fod yn gliriach. Nid oedd amheuaeth gennym ychwaith am y dymuniad gwirioneddol i weld newid. Wrth gwrs, cydnabyddwn nad yw nifer o’r elfennau y mae eu hangen i fynd i’r afael â thlodi ymhlith plant, fel treth, y system fudd-daliadau a phennu’r isafswm cyflog—a hynny’n anffodus, yn fy marn bersonol i—yn nwylo ein Gweinidog. Fodd bynnag, gwelsom angen gwirioneddol am gyfeiriad a grym strategol llawer cryfach. Awgryma ymateb y Llywodraeth i’n hadroddiad fod camau pendant yn cael eu cymryd tuag at sicrhau’r cyfeiriad a’r grym hwnnw, ond yr ydym yn yn bryderus ynghylch cyflymder ac egni’r cyfeiriad hwn.

Our education system could and should be the vehicle that mitigates the worst effects of poverty in children’s lives now, and gives

Gallai ein system addysg fod yn gyfrwng sy’n lliniaru effeithiau gwaethaf tlodi ym mywydau plant yn awr, a rhoi’r offer iddynt

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them the tools to climb out of poverty for the future. Each child has only one chance. We know what needs to be done. We know what works and what does not work, and we cannot, as a political community, make these children wait any longer. I look forward to the debate, and I am grateful to all those who have participated in this review.

gefnu ar dlodi ar gyfer y dyfodol, a dylai wneud hynny. Un cyfle’n unig sydd gan bob plentyn. Gwyddom beth y mae angen ei wneud. Gwyddom beth sy’n llwyddo a beth nad yw’n llwyddo, ac ni allwn ni, fel cymuned wleidyddol, wneud i’r plant hyn aros ddim hwy. Edrychaf ymlaen at y ddadl, ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i bawb sydd wedi cymryd rhan yn yr adolygiad hwn.

The Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills (Jane Hutt): I am very grateful for the thorough work of the Children and Young People Committee in producing this important report on the implications of child poverty for education in Wales. At the outset, I want to underline the Assembly Government’s total commitment to eradicating child poverty and our recognition of the key role that education has to play. During the autumn, we also received a series of recommendations from the child poverty expert group that was chaired by Huw Lewis, which also stated that the starting point for any inquiry into child poverty ought to be the field of education. I want to assure colleagues that both sets of recommendations—those from your committee, Helen Mary, and from Huw’s expert group—will have a significant impact on the development of future Government policy. I will respond in more detail in writing if we cannot cover all the points today.

Y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau (Jane Hutt): Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iawn am waith trylwyr y Pwyllgor ar Blant a Phobl Ifanc wrth gynhyrchu’r adroddiad pwysig hwn ar oblygiadau tlodi plant i addysg yng Nghymru. Ar y cychwyn, hoffwn bwysleisio ymrwymiad llwyr Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i ddileu tlodi plant a’n cydnabyddiaeth o rôl allweddol addysg. Yn yr hydref cawsom hefyd gyfres o argymhellion gan y grŵp arbenigol ar dlodi plant dan gadeiryddiaeth Huw Lewis, a ddywedodd hefyd mai addysg ddylai fod yn fan cychwyn i unrhyw ymchwiliad i dlodi plant. Hoffwn sicrhau cyd-aelodau y bydd y ddwy gyfres o argymhellion—y rheini gan eich pwyllgor chi, Helen Mary, a chan grŵp arbenigol Huw—yn cael effaith sylweddol ar ddatblygiad polisi’r Llywodraeth yn y dyfodol. Byddaf yn ymateb yn fanylach yn ysgrifenedig os na allwn ymdrin â’r holl bwyntiau heddiw.

The Assembly Government is unique in the UK and is in the vanguard of European countries in basing its policies and programmes on the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. It is a matter of civil and human rights that children should be free from poverty. It is a fundamental issue not just of income or individual life chances, but of social justice. Back in 2005, we set out our strategy for tackling child poverty, ‘A Fair Future for our Children’. That strategy committed us to the eradication of child poverty in Wales by 2020—a commitment that was clearly reaffirmed in the present Government’s ‘One Wales’ agenda. I was pleased that Helen Mary’s introduction, as Chair of the committee that prepared this report, acknowledged some of the innovation that we have developed in Wales, seeking to enable children and families to break free from poverty.

Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn unigryw yn y DU ac mae ar flaen y gad ymysg gwledydd Ewrop o ran seilio’i pholisïau a’i rhaglenni ar Gonfensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar Hawliau’r Plentyn. Mae sicrhau bod plant yn rhydd o dlodi yn fater o hawliau sifil a dynol. Mae’n fater hollbwysig nid yn unig o ran incwm neu gyfleoedd bywyd unigol, ond o ran cyfiawnder cymdeithasol. Yn ôl yn 2005 amlinellwyd ein strategaeth ar gyfer mynd i’r afael â thlodi plant, ‘Dyfodol Teg i’n Plant’. Yn y strategaeth honno yr oeddem yn ymrwymo i ddileu tlodi plant yng Nghymru erbyn 2020—ymrwymiad a gadarnhawyd yn glir yn yr agenda ‘Cymru’n Un’ gan y Llywodraeth bresennol. Yr oeddwn yn falch fod cyflwyniad Helen Mary, fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor a baratôdd yr adroddiad hwn, wedi cydnabod rhai o’r pethau arloesol yr ydym wedi eu datblygu yng Nghymru, i geisio galluogi plant a theuluoedd i ddod allan o

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dlodi.

The report also underlines the complex and cross-cutting nature of the child poverty agenda and, although the majority of the recommendations fall within my portfolio, others clearly relate to those of other Ministers. That is why there has to be a joined-up response. As a Government, we accept all the recommendations in the committee report, because they directly reflect current or proposed Assembly Government policies and programmes.

Mae’r adroddiad hefyd yn pwysleisio natur gymhleth a thrawsbynciol yr agenda tlodi plant, ac er bod mwyafrif yr argymhellion yn dod o fewn fy mhortffolio i, mae eraill yn amlwg yn ymwneud â phortffolios Gweinidogion eraill. Fel Llywodraeth, derbyniwn yr holl argymhellion yn adroddiad y pwyllgor, oherwydd maent yn adlewyrchu polisïau a rhaglenni presennol Llywodraeth y Cynulliad neu bolisïau a rhaglenni arfaethedig.

3.20 p.m.

Most significantly, we agree with key recommendation 3, which calls for an updated and refreshed child poverty strategy and implementation plan for Wales. Its premise is that we must take account of new initiatives and changes in programmes such as Communities First, which was in the evidence that the Deputy Minister for Regeneration gave. Following an evaluation of our current child poverty policies and programmes, we have every intention of developing a new strategy, but most important of all is the implementation. Many policy initiatives contribute towards our child poverty agenda, but, understandably, they are often perceived as levers to improve the quality of education provision and learning outcomes in general. We need to proof these policies so that we emphasise the critical importance of child poverty and ensure that we maximise the benefits that all disadvantaged children and young people can derive from education.

Yn fwyaf arwyddocaol, cytunwn ag argymhelliad allweddol 3, sy’n galw am ddiweddaru strategaeth a chynllun gweithredu ar dlodi plant ar gyfer Cymru, a rhoi gwedd newydd ar hynny. Ei gynsail yw ei bod yn rhaid inni ystyried mentrau newydd a newidiadau mewn rhaglenni fel Cymunedau yn Gyntaf, a oedd yn rhan o dystiolaeth y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Adfywio. Yn dilyn gwerthusiad o’n polisïau a’n rhaglenni presennol ar dlodi plant, ein bwriad yw datblygu strategaeth newydd, ond yr hyn sydd bwysicaf yw ei gweithredu. Mae nifer o fentrau polisi yn cyfrannu at ein hagenda ar dlodi plant, ond yn ddealladwy cânt eu gweld yn aml fel dulliau i wella ansawdd y ddarpariaeth addysg a chanlyniadau dysgu’n gyffredinol. Mae angen inni sicrhau bod pwyslais yn y polisïau hyn ar bwysigrwydd hanfodol tlodi plant a sicrhau’r buddiannau mwyaf y gall pob plentyn ac unigolyn ifanc difreintiedig eu cael o addysg.

Developing the right policy responses is not enough to tackle the issue; we need policy, we need funding, which is the issue in recommendation 6, and we need legislation. The fact that we have introduced the proposed legislative competence Order relating to vulnerable children and child poverty addresses that issue, because it gives the Assembly the power to take forward Welsh laws, placing a duty on local authorities and other public bodies to do their part to ensure that all public institutions in Wales work together to reduce child poverty. I am working with my colleague, the Minister for Social Justice and Local

Nid yw datblygu’r ymatebion polisi cywir yn ddigon i fynd i’r afael â’r broblem; mae arnom angen polisi mae arnom angen cyllid, sef y mater yn argymhelliad 6, ac mae arnom angen deddfwriaeth. Mae’r ffaith ein bod wedi cyflwyno’r Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol arfaethedig ar blant a phobl ifanc sy’n agored i niwed yn mynd i’r afael â’r mater hwnnw, oherwydd mae’n rhoi’r grym i’r Cynulliad ddatblygu cyfreithiau Cymreig, gan roi dyletswydd ar awdurdodau lleol a chyrff cyhoeddus eraill i wneud eu rhan i sicrhau bod pob sefydliad cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn cydweithio i leihau tlodi plant. Yr wyf yn gweithio gyda’m cyd-

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Government, on how we can deliver the outcomes agenda that we talked about.

Weinidog, y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder a Llywodraeth Leol, ar y ffordd y gallwn gyflawni’r agenda canlyniadau y buom yn sôn amdani.

I want to give myself time to respond to other key points, but I will just say that I have been chairing the Cabinet committee on children and young people, which is designed to ensure that our cross-cutting responsibilities for children and young people are co-ordinated effectively across Government. To support that at a ministerial level, in line with your first recommendation, we now have a delivery group of senior officials from relevant policy departments focusing specifically on the progress made in delivering on the Assembly Government’s child poverty agenda. It is chaired by my colleague, Dr Brian Gibbons, and, as you called for, comprises senior officials to strengthen the child poverty unit’s work and to be responsible for delivering on the departmental child poverty targets that were set in ‘Eradicating Child Poverty in Wales’. That report puts great emphasis on the pivotal role of schools in mitigating the effects of child poverty.

Yr wyf am roi amser i mi fy hun ymateb i bwyntiau allweddol eraill, ond hoffwn ddweud fy mod wedi cadeirio pwyllgor y Cabinet ar blant a phobl ifanc, sydd wedi ei lunio i sicrhau bod cyfrifoldebau trawsbynciol dros blant a phobl ifanc yn cael eu cydgysylltu’n effeithiol ar draws y Llywodraeth. I gefnogi hynny ar lefel gweinidogion, yn unol â’ch argymhelliad cyntaf, mae gennym bellach grŵp cyflawni o uwch swyddogion o adrannau polisi perthnasol sy’n canolbwyntio’n benodol ar y cynnydd a wneir ar gyflawni agenda Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar dlodi plant. Y cadeirydd yw fy nghyd-Weinidog, Dr Brian Gibbons, ac yn unol â’ch cais mae’n cynnwys uwch swyddogion er mwyn cryfhau gwaith yr uned ar dlodi plant ac i fod yn gyfrifol am gyrraedd y targedau adrannol ar dlodi plant a bennwyd yn ‘Cael Gwared ar Dlodi Plant yng Nghymru’. Mae’r adroddiad hwnnw’n rhoi pwyslais mawr ar rôl ganolog ysgolion wrth liniaru effeithiau tlodi plant.

I also agree with the report that schools cannot do it alone, and that is where children and young people’s partnerships come in, providing a key mechanism. Through core aim 7 of the children and young people’s plans, local authorities working with their partners must set out the action that they have agreed to take to address child poverty and to have an impact on poverty among children and young people. That paves the way for the legislation that is coming forward.

Cytunaf hefyd â’r adroddiad pan ddywed na all ysgolion wneud hyn eu hunain, a dyna bwrpas y partneriaethau plant a phobl ifanc, i ddarparu mecanwaith allweddol. Drwy amcan craidd 7 yn y cynlluniau plant a phobl ifanc, rhaid i awdurdodau lleol sy’n gweithio gyda’u partneriaid osod allan y camau y maent wedi cytuno i’w cymryd i fynd i’r afael â thlodi ymhlith plant a phobl ifanc. Mae hynny’n paratoi’r ffordd ar gyfer y ddeddfwriaeth arfaethedig.

Therefore, we need to provide the direction, guidance, resources and legislation. I look forward to responding to the specific points made in the few minutes that I will have at the end of the debate.

Felly, mae angen inni ddarparu cyfeiriad, arweiniad, adnoddau a deddfwriaeth. Edrychaf ymlaen at ymateb i’r pwyntiau penodol a wneir yn yr ychydig funudau a fydd gennyf ar ddiwedd y ddadl.

Angela Burns: I also thank Helen Mary and those who participated in this, the witnesses who came forward, and the staff. I also thank the Minister for her response. Helen Mary said something incredibly important, which is probably the most important thing of all, namely that education is the best tool for escaping poverty, and that our children, poor

Angela Burns: Yr wyf fi hefyd yn diolch i Helen Mary a’r rheini a gymerodd ran yn y gwaith hwn, y tystion, a’r staff. Diolch hefyd i’r Gweinidog am ei hymateb. Dywedodd Helen Mary rywbeth hynod bwysig, y peth pwysicaf oll, mae’n debyg, sef mai addysg yw’r offeryn gorau ar gyfer dianc o tlodi, ac mai un cyfle’n unig sydd gan ein plant, tlawd

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or not, have one chance. Given that, I want to focus on two of the report’s recommendations, which concentrate on the interface between teachers and children.

ai peidio. O gofio hynny, hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar ddau o argymhellion yr adroddiad, sy’n canolbwyntio ar y rhyngwyneb rhwng plant ac athrawon.

Helen Mary talked about recommendation 12, which is that we ask the Welsh Assembly Government to undertake a review of the interpretation of the national agreement. Helen Mary commented that only a minority of witnesses felt that teachers’ best role in life was simply to teach and that is where the story ends. I have read back over the Record of Proceedings of a couple of our committee meetings, and I was left with a slightly uncomfortable feeling. I will not name names—and I have probably done enough of that today—but I will read out a small part.

Soniodd Helen Mary am argymhelliad 12, sef ein bod yn gofyn i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru gynnal adolygiad o’r dehongliad o’r cytundeb cenedlaethol. Dywedodd Helen Mary mai lleiafrif o’r tystion a oedd yn teimlo mai rôl orau athrawon oedd addysgu’n unig, a dyna’r diwedd. Yr wyf wedi ailddarllen Cofnod y Trafodion o un neu ddau o gyfarfodydd ein pwyllgor, a theimlwn ychydig yn anghysurus. Nid wyf am enwi neb—ac yr wyf wedi gwneud digon o hynny heddiw, mae’n siŵr—ond darllenaf ran fach.

‘However, the agreement focused on the work that you are asking them to do and relating that to teaching and learning rather than to other areas.’

Fodd bynnag, canolbwyntiodd y cytundeb ar y gwaith yr ydych yn gofyn iddynt ei wneud a chysylltu hynny ag addysgu a dysgu yn hytrach nag â meysydd eraill.

That was the theme of a couple of our committee meetings, and one in particular. There is reluctance among some in the profession, who say that their job is to deliver an educational standard, that is what we ask them and pay them to do, and so they will deliver their subject, which could be Welsh, English, mathematics, media studies or whatever. Perhaps the focus should not be on the form teacher or the subject teacher but on the child who is before them.

Dyna thema un neu ddau o gyfarfodydd ein pwyllgor, ac un yn arbennig. Mae yna amharodrwydd ymhlith rhai yn y proffesiwn, sy’n dweud mai cyflawni safonau addysgol yw eu gwaith, dyna’r hyn y gofynnwn iddynt ei wneud ac y talwn iddynt am ei wneud, ac felly byddant yn cyflwyno’u pwnc, a allai fod yn Gymraeg, Saesneg, mathemateg, astudiaethau’r cyfryngau neu beth bynnag. Efallai y dylid canolbwyntio ar y plentyn ger o’u blaenau yn hytrach nag ar yr athro dosbarth neu’r athro pwnc.

Minister, I do not know whether you have had the opportunity to read such books as A Child Called ‘It’, Damaged, or Unloved: The True Story of a Stolen Childhood, but I can tell you that the one thing that shines through them all—apart from the amazing courage of the children who make it through despite horrific upbringings and suffering neglect or abuse—is the fact that there has usually been someone who has signposted them to a better life, often a teacher. That person has noticed that the child has come to school looking gaunt or thin, that he or she smells, does not have the right clothes on, is sporting a bruise, will not talk, or is totally disengaged. That emphasises the importance of the pastoral care of teachers.

Weinidog, ni wn a ydych wedi cael cyfle i ddarllen llyfrau fel A Child Called ‘It’, Damaged neu Unloved: The True Story of a Stolen Childhood, ond gallaf ddweud wrthych mai’r un peth sy’n dod i’r amlwg drwy bob un ohonynt—ac eithrio dewrder rhyfeddol y plant sy’n dod drwyddi er gwaethaf magwraeth erchyll ac esgeulustod neu gamdriniaeth—yw’r ffaith fod rhywun fel rheol wedi bod yno i’w cyfeirio tuag at fywyd gwell, a hwnnw’n aml yn athro. Mae’r unigolyn hwnnw wedi sylwi bod y plentyn wedi dod i’r ysgol yn edrych yn welw neu’n denau, ei fod yn drewi, nad yw’n gwisgo’r dillad iawn, bod ganddo glais, nad yw’n fodlon siarad, neu ei fod wedi ymddieithrio’n llwyr. Mae hynny’n pwysleisio pwysigrwydd gofal bugeiliol athrawon.

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Bearing that in mind, recommendation 20 of the report talks about carrying out research into why the educational process seems to decline in the early years of secondary school. We took evidence from Professor Egan on that issue, and he contended that, at primary school level, children, particularly those from poor and deprived backgrounds, get so much intervention that, by the time they get to years 5 and 6, 80 per cent of them are on a par with the rest of their peers. However, when they hit secondary school and no longer have that one-on-one attention of somebody checking that they are okay, because they are older, and of trying to interact with their parents, a substantial proportion of that 80 per cent falls away again. Therefore, all the money, effort, time, planning and thought that has gone into early intervention to try to bring these children up and out of poverty just gets lost as soon as they get to secondary school. That brings me back to my point about how important teachers are to these children. Teaching cannot simply be a job about sums or languages and so on; teachers have to start paying attention to their pastoral role, too.

O gofio hynny, mae argymhelliad 20 yn yr adroddiad yn sôn am wneud gwaith ymchwil i’r rheswm pam yr ymddengys fod y broses addysgol yn dirywio yn ystod blynyddoedd cynnar ysgol uwchradd. Cawsom dystiolaeth gan yr Athro Egan am hynny, a honnai fod plant, mewn ysgolion cynradd, yn arbennig y rheini o gefndiroedd difreintiedig, yn cael cymaint o ymyriadau nes bod 80 y cant ohonynt ar yr un lefel â gweddill eu cyfoedion erbyn iddynt gyrraedd blynyddoedd 5 a 6. Fodd bynnag, pan ânt i’r ysgol uwchradd lle nad ydynt yn cael y sylw unigol hwnnw, neu lle nad oes neb yn gwneud yn siŵr eu bod yn iawn, oherwydd eu bod yn hŷn, ac yn ceisio rhyngweithio â’u rheini, mae cyfran sylweddol o’r 80 y cant hwnnw’n dirywio eto. Felly, mae’r holl arian, yr holl ymdrech, yr holl amser, yr holl gynllunio a’r holl feddwl sydd wedi eu buddsoddi mewn ymyriadau cynnar i geisio arwain y plant hyn allan dlodi yn cael ei golli cyn gynted ag yr ânt i’r ysgol uwchradd. Daw hynny â mi yn ôl at fy mhwynt ynghylch pwysigrwydd athrawon i’r plant hyn. Nid swydd yn ymwneud â symiau neu ieithoedd ac ati yn unig yw addysgu; rhaid i athrawon ddechrau rhoi sylw i’w rôl fugeiliol, hefyd.

I found that quite a stressful session, because we are fundamentally failing to use the people most important in the fight to eradicate poverty through education. Minister, if you take just one thing from the report of the Children and Young People Committee, I ask that you conduct that review into how the framework is being applied and undertake research to discover why so many of our precious children are falling by the wayside as soon as they reach secondary school. I am sure that Professor Egan’s contention will really come through in that research, namely that much of it is down to the fact that the focus is taken off them, and teachers are not able to pay as much attention to them, as individuals.

Achosodd y sefyllfa honno dipyn o straen imi, oherwydd yr ydym yn y bôn yn methu â defnyddio’r bobl bwysicaf yn y frwydr i ddileu tlodi drwy addysg. Weinidog, os cymerwch un peth o adroddiad y Pwyllgor ar Blant a Phobl Ifanc, gofynnaf i chi gynnal adolygiad o’r ffordd y caiff y fframwaith ei ddefnyddio, ac i wneud gwaith ymchwil i ddarganfod pam y mae cynifer o’n plant gwerthfawr yn syrthio ar fin y ffordd cyn gynted ag yr ânt i’r ysgol uwchradd. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd honiad yr Athro Egan yn dod yn amlwg iawn yn yr ymchwil honno, sef bod llawer i’w briodoli i’r ffaith fod y ffocws yn symud oddi arnynt, ac nad yw athrawon yn gallu rhoi cymaint o sylw iddynt, fel unigolion.

Christine Chapman: As a member of the committee, I was pleased to be involved in such an important piece of work. Tackling child poverty is one of the biggest challenges of this generation, and it is essential that that remains a political priority for us all. As members of the committee, we are all

Christine Chapman: Fel aelod o’r pwyllgor yr oeddwn yn falch cymryd rhan mewn darn mor bwysig o waith. Mae mynd i’r afael â thlodi plant yn un o heriau mwyaf y genhedlaeth hon, ac mae’n hanfodol i hynny barhau’n flaenoriaeth wleidyddol inni bob un. Fel aelodau o’r pwyllgor, yr ydym yn

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frustrated because lots of good ideas and words are written about child poverty, but we want to see things happening, and we want to engage with the implementation of this to ensure that things happen.

rhwystredig am fod llawer o syniadau a geiriau da yn cael eu hysgrifennu am dlodi plant, ond yr ydym am weld pethau’n digwydd, ac yr ydym am ymgysylltu â’r broses o roi hyn ar waith er mwyn sicrhau bod pethau’n digwydd.

3.30 p.m.

A most sobering thought is that, at the last estimate, about 170,000 children were in poverty across Wales, which is more than enough to fill the Millennium Stadium twice over. As we sit in the Chamber today, those children are leading disadvantaged lives, and if we do not do anything about it, they will grow up to lead disadvantaged lives. We need to think seriously about this.

Mae’n frawychus meddwl, yn ôl yr amcangyfrif diwethaf, fod tua 170,000 o blant yn byw mewn tlodi ledled Cymru, sy’n fwy na digon i lenwi Stadiwm y Mileniwm ddwywaith. Tra ydym yn eistedd yn y Siambr heddiw, mae’r plant hynny’n byw bywydau difreintiedig, ac os na wnawn ddim yn ei gylch, byddant yn tyfu i fyw bywydau difreintiedig. Mae angen inni feddwl o ddifrif ynglŷn â hyn.

As Helen Mary said, it was particularly important that we heard from the children and young people themselves. They spoke as they found, and as we listened to their experiences we were conscious of the significance of their evidence. We know that a child’s quality of life is influenced by many factors, one of which is education, and the committee chose to examine child poverty in relation to education because of its impact on all children. I would say that education is probably the most important aspect of a child’s life. Unfortunately, many children continue to get a raw deal, and those that are already vulnerable, and liable to social exclusion, find the scales tipped against them from the moment that they start school. Just as a good education can be a springboard to success, a poor education can be a life sentence to poverty.

Fel y dywedodd Helen Mary, yr oedd yn bwysig iawn inni glywed gan y plant a’r bobl ifanc eu hunain. Yr oeddent yn disgrifio pethau fel yr oeddent yn eu gweld, ac wrth inni wrando ar eu profiadau yr oeddem yn ymwybodol o bwysigrwydd eu tystiolaeth. Gwyddom fod nifer o ffactorau’n dylanwadu ar ansawdd bywyd plentyn. Un o’r ffactorau hyn yw addysg, a dewisodd y pwyllgor edrych ar dlodi plant yng nghyswllt addysg gan fod addysg yn berthnasol i bob plentyn. Byddwn yn dweud mai addysg, mae’n debyg, yw’r agwedd bwysicaf ar fywyd plentyn. Yn anffodus, mae nifer o blant yn cael cam, ac mae’r rhai hynny sydd eisoes yn agored i niwed ac sy’n debygol o gael eu hallgáu’n gymdeithasol yn gweld bod pethau’n mynd yn eu herbyn o’r adeg pan ddechreuant fynd i’r ysgol. Yn union fel y gall addysg dda fod yn sbardun i lwyddiant, gall addysg wael fod yn ddedfryd i dlodi am oes.

I will not comment on all of the recommendations—other Members have already done so, and I do not want to repeat their comments. I am pleased that there has been a positive response from the Government on some of these matters, but again, like others, I would like some clarification on some of them. One of the main themes to emerge from the inquiry was the need for a coherent, national strategic direction. The Government has said that work will begin on developing a new strategy, and I would therefore welcome some comments

Nid wyf am wneud sylwadau am bob un o’r argymhellion—mae Aelodau eraill wedi gwneud hynny eisoes, ac nid wyf yn dymuno ailadrodd eu sylwadau. Yr wyf yn falch fod y Llywodraeth wedi ymateb yn gadarnhaol i rai o’r materion hyn, ond unwaith eto, fel eraill, hoffwn gael eglurhad ar rai ohonynt. Un o’r prif themâu a ddaeth i’r amlwg yn dilyn yr ymchwiliad oedd yr angen am gyfeiriad strategol cenedlaethol, cydlynol. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi dweud y caiff gwaith ei wneud i ddatblygu strategaeth newydd, a byddwn felly’n croesawu sylwadau gan y

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from the Minister on when she envisages that work beginning, and on a timescale for implementation. I am concerned that time spent on putting together a new strategy will halt progress in reaching the interim target to halve child poverty by 2010, so although we need to evaluate the latest situation, we must not lose momentum on this.

Gweinidog ynglŷn â pha bryd y mae’n rhagweld y bydd y gwaith hwnnw’n dechrau, a beth fydd yr amserlen ar ei gyfer. Yr wyf yn pryderu y bydd yr amser a dreulir yn llunio strategaeth newydd yn atal cynnydd wrth geisio cyrraedd y targed interim o haneru tlodi plant erbyn 2010. Felly, er bod angen inni werthuso’r sefyllfa ddiweddaraf, rhaid inni beidio â cholli momentwm ar hyn.

Recommendation 4 refers to the need for a commitment to child-poverty-proofing of policies across portfolios, including the publication of annual targets, and an annual debate on the Government’s progress towards reaching them. Again, the Government’s response has been positive, but I would like further clarification on the timescale and the detail. It is essential that child poverty is everyone’s business; it is not just for certain departments, but for every portfolio.

Mae argymhelliad 4 yn cyfeirio at yr angen am ymrwymiad i brawfesur polisïau o safbwynt tlodi plant ym mhob portffolio, gan gynnwys cyhoeddi targedau blynyddol, a thrafodaeth flynyddol ar gynnydd y Llywodraeth tuag at eu bodloni. Unwaith eto, mae ymateb y Llywodraeth wedi bod yn gadarnhaol, ond hoffwn gael rhagor o wybodaeth am yr amserlen a’r manylion. Mae’n hanfodol i dlodi plant fod yn fater i bawb; mae’n fater i bob portffolio, nid i adrannau penodol yn unig.

Finally, we are aware that the recession will hit child poverty plans. Evidence from previous recessions shows that child poverty rises during an economic downturn, so I would welcome assurances from the Government that we will not lose momentum at this difficult time.

Yn olaf, yr ydym yn ymwybodol y bydd y dirwasgiad yn effeithio ar gynlluniau ar gyfer tlodi plant. Dengys tystiolaeth o ddirwasgiadau blaenorol fod tlodi plant yn cynyddu yn ystod dirywiad economaidd, felly, byddwn yn falch cael sicrwydd gan y Llywodraeth na fyddwn yn colli momentwm ar yr adeg anodd hon.

Kirsty Williams: I will also begin by thanking the Chair of the committee and its staff for the publication of the report. I also thank the Members who served on the committee, especially Eleanor Burnham, the Liberal Democrat member of the committee at the time that this work was undertaken.

Kirsty Williams: Hoffwn i hefyd ddechrau drwy ddiolch i Gadeirydd y pwyllgor a’i staff am gyhoeddi’r adroddiad. Hoffwn ddiolch hefyd i’r Aelodau a fu’n gwasanaethu ar y pwyllgor, yn enwedig i Eleanor Burnham, yr aelod o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a oedd ar y pwyllgor ar yr adeg pan wnaethpwyd y gwaith hwn.

As we have heard from Christine, a staggering number of children in this country are living in poverty—almost 170,000, which is one of the worst rates of child poverty in the industrial world. It means that at least 1 in 4 of our children lives in poverty, and almost 1 in 10 in severe poverty.

Fel y clywsom gan Christine, mae nifer syfrdanol o blant yn byw mewn tlodi yn y wlad hon—bron i 170,000, sy’n un o’r cyfraddau tlodi plant gwaethaf yn y byd diwydiannol. Mae’n golygu bod o leiaf 1 plentyn o bob 4 yn byw mewn tlodi, a bod bron i 1 o bob 10 yn byw mewn tlodi difrifol.

The families who gave evidence to the committee expressed proudly and eloquently what that means for them in reality. Before their lives have really begun, those children’s life chances are limited, their opportunities reined in, and their potential capped. Poor

Dywedodd y teuluoedd a roddodd dystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor, yn falch ac yn huawdl, beth y mae hynny mewn gwirionedd yn ei olygu iddynt hwy. Cyn i’w bywydau ddechrau o ddifrif, mae cyfle’r plant hynny mewn bywyd wedi’i gyfyngu, mae eu cyfleoedd wedi’u

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babies are literally smaller—they are born 130g lighter than children from richer families. The low birth rate is associated with higher levels of infant death and chronic disease in later life. Up to the age of 14, children from poor families are five times more likely to die in an accident, and 15 times more likely to die in a fire than a child from a richer family. These families often struggle to find even the most basic resources and necessities for their children; stuff that other children—my children—would take for granted. We are not talking about life’s luxuries, such as a birthday party or a family holiday. Families with disabled children reported having to cut back on food, and families reported their inability to provide adequate clothing or shoes for their children.

llesteirio a’u potensial wedi’i ffrwyno. Mae babanod tlawd yn llythrennol yn llai—maent yn cael eu geni 130g yn ysgafnach na phlant o deuluoedd cyfoethocach. Mae’r gyfradd genedigaethau isel yn gysylltiedig â lefelau uwch o farwolaethau babanod a chlefydau cronig yn ddiweddarach yn eu hoes. Hyd at 14 oed, mae plant o deuluoedd tlawd bum gwaith yn fwy tebygol o farw mewn damwain, a 15 gwaith yn fwy tebygol o farw mewn tân na phlentyn o deulu cyfoethocach. Mae’r teuluoedd hyn yn aml yn brwydro i ddod o hyd i’r adnoddau a’r anghenion mwyaf sylfaenol hyd yn oed ar gyfer eu plant; pethau y byddai plant eraill—fy mhlant i—yn eu cymryd yn ganiataol. Nid sôn yr ydym am bethau moethus bywyd, fel parti pen-blwydd neu wyliau i’r teulu. Dywedodd teuluoedd a oedd â phlant anabl eu bod yn gorfod gwario llai ar fwyd, a dywedodd teuluoedd eraill eu bod yn methu darparu dillad neu esgidiau digonol i’w plant.

There has long been shown to be a direct correlation between parental wealth and child attainment in the classroom. Any advantage that children may enjoy due to innate talent is, by the age of 6, overtaken by the advantages of coming from a richer family, and it is therefore appropriate that the committee looked at education, because schools are key in trying to balance out some of the inequality issues that these children face. I particularly welcome the recommendation to look at individual teacher training, providing more information to governors, and really getting schools to focus on the effects of poverty on a child’s learning experience.

Dangoswyd ers tro bod cysylltiad uniongyrchol rhwng cyfoeth rhieni a chyrhaeddiad plant yn yr ystafell ddosbarth. Mae unrhyw fantais y gall plant ei mwynhau oherwydd talent gynhenid, erbyn i’r plentyn fod yn 6 oed, yn cael ei goddiweddyd gan fanteision dod o deulu cyfoethocach, ac mae’n briodol felly fod y pwyllgor hwn wedi edrych ar addysg, oherwydd mae ysgolion yn allweddol er mwyn ceisio cydbwyso rhai o’r problemau anghydraddoldeb sy’n wynebu’r plant hyn. Yr wyf yn arbennig o falch gweld yr argymhelliad i edrych ar hyfforddiant athrawon unigol, darparu mwy o wybodaeth i lywodraethwyr, a chael ysgolion i ganolbwyntio o ddifrif ar effeithiau tlodi ar brofiad dysgu plentyn.

Recommendation 27 touches on the issue of resources. Schools need the resources to do the job properly. Yes, we can expect teachers to improve their skills and share best practice, but if their institutions lack the resources, there is little they can do. That takes us back to the old chestnut of how our schools are funded. The report into funding, which still lies languishing on a Minister’s shelf somewhere, showed this Government the way. The Bramley review made clear recommendations for funding for children who come from lower socio-economic backgrounds. As we know, the response to

Mae argymhelliad 27 yn cyfeirio at adnoddau. Mae ar ysgolion angen yr adnoddau i wneud y gwaith yn iawn. Gallwn, gallwn ddisgwyl i athrawon wella’u sgiliau a rhannu’r arferion gorau, ond os nad oes digon o adnoddau yn eu sefydliadau, nid oes llawer y gallant ei wneud. Mae hynny’n mynd â ni yn ôl at yr un hen broblem, sef sut y mae ein hysgolion yn cael eu hariannu. Yr oedd yr adroddiad ar ariannu, sy’n dal i hel llwch ar silff rhyw Weinidog rywle, yn dangos y ffordd i’r Llywodraeth hon. Gwnaeth adolygiad Bramley argymhellion clir ar arian ar gyfer plant dod o gefndiroedd

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the Bramley review was described by the Welsh Local Government Association as controversial, and it said that we would be better off staying with the status quo. I have said before that it is not our job to defend the status quo. It is only challenging if you feel that to be your role, and I do not believe that that is our role.

cymdeithasol-economaidd is. Fel y gwyddom, disgrifiwyd yr ymateb i adolygiad Bramley gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru fel un dadleuol, a dywedwyd mai cadw’r sefyllfa bresennol fyddai orau. Yr wyf wedi dweud o’r blaen nad ein gwaith ni yw amddiffyn y sefyllfa bresennol. Mae’n her dim ond os teimlwch mai dyna yw eich rôl, ac nid wyf yn credu mai hynny yw ein rôl ni.

If we want schools to take this agenda on, we have to give them proper resources. The opportunity to do so has been missed. It would have been much easier to do it when we had plenty of money coming to the block grant to dole out to local authorities. We cannot use that as a continuing excuse not to act on this issue, however.

Os ydym yn awyddus i ysgolion dderbyn yr agenda hon, rhaid inni roi adnoddau priodol iddynt. Mae’r cyfle i wneud hynny wedi ei golli. Byddai wedi bod lawer yn haws inni wneud hynny pan oedd gennym ddigon o arian yn dod i’r grant bloc i’w rannu i awdurdodau lleol. Ni allwn ddefnyddio hynny fel esgus parhaus dros beidio â gwneud dim ynglŷn â’r mater hwn, fodd bynnag.

Recommendation 4 calls on the Government to set clear targets and to monitor individual ministerial and departmental performance against them. The Minister says that she accepts this recommendation in principle, but for too long, this administration has been dealing with the principle of child poverty. We know that the Government, in principle, has set a goal of eradicating child poverty, but it is time for the Government to stop talking about principles and start acting with regard to practicalities by doing something about this situation, because these children cannot wait any longer. It is not just a matter of pulling up the drawbridges or of those children who have resources saying, ‘It’s not our problem’; if we do not adequately deal with this problem, each of us will continue to pay for these children’s underachievement for the rest of our lives. It is incumbent on us, indeed, it is in our self interest, to act and not simply deal in principles any longer.

Mae argymhelliad 4 yn galw ar y Llywodraeth i osod targedau clir ac i fonitro perfformiad gweinidogion ac adrannau unigol ar sail y targedau hynny. Mae’r Gweinidog yn dweud ei bod yn derbyn egwyddor yr argymhelliad hwn, ond mae’r weinyddiaeth hon wedi bod yn ymdrin ag egwyddor tlodi plant ers rhy hir. Gwyddom fod y Llywodraeth, mewn egwyddor, wedi gosod nod o ddileu tlodi plant, ond mae’n bryd i’r Llywodraeth roi’r gorau i siarad am egwyddorion a dechrau gwneud rhywbeth ymarferol ynglŷn â’r sefyllfa hon, oherwydd ni all y plant hyn aros ddim mwy. Mae hyn yn fwy na mater o gau’r drysau neu glywed y plant hynny sydd ag adnoddau’n dweud, ‘Nid ein problem ni yw hon’; os nad ymdriniwn yn ddigonol â’r broblem hon, bydd pob un ohonom yn dal i dalu am dangyflawniad y plant hyn am weddill ein hoes. Mae’n ddyletswydd arnom, yn wir, mae o fudd i ni’n bersonol weithredu, nid dal i drafod egwyddorion.

Huw Lewis: In the face of this global economic crisis, as the public battens down the hatches and prepares itself for the full onslaught of a recession, we should not allow the war on child poverty to be neglected in favour of short-term aims and priorities, no matter how urgent they may seem. In sending resources to the front line of the current economic battle, we must not allow ourselves to be outflanked. Tackling hardship today

Huw Lewis: Wrth wynebu’r argyfwng economaidd byd-eang hwn, a’r cyhoedd yn cau’r hatsys yn sownd ac yn paratoi ar gyfer effeithiau gwaethaf dirwasgiad, ni ddylem adael i’r frwydr yn erbyn tlodi plant gael ei hesgeuluso er mwyn cyrraedd nodau a blaenoriaethau tymor byr, ni waeth pa mor bwysig y maent yn ymddangos. Wrth anfon adnoddau i reng flaen y frwydr economaidd bresennol, rhaid inni sicrhau nad ydym yn

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must never be at the cost of even greater hardship following in the future. To do so is to risk all the progress that we have made since 1997.

anghofio’r frwydr yn erbyn tlodi. Ni ddylai’r gwaith o fynd i’r afael â thlodi heddiw fod ar draul caledi gwaeth fyth i ddilyn yn y dyfodol. Drwy wneud hynny byddem yn rhoi’r holl gynnydd yr ydym wedi’i wneud er 1997 yn y fantol.

Back in 2006, in my role as Deputy Minister for Social Justice and Regeneration, I was responsible for the ‘Measuring Success’ document, which set targets and milestones that needed to be hit on the path to our eventual aim of eradicating child poverty by 2020. The latest statistics show a clear improvement against these targets in a third of areas, and I welcome that progress. On the other hand, I am also frustrated that in 32 per cent of the indicators, we show little or no improvement as yet.

Yn ôl yn 2006, yn fy rôl fel Dirprwy Weinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol ac Adfywio, yr oeddwn yn gyfrifol am y ddogfen ‘Mesur Llwyddiant’, a oedd yn gosod targedau a cherrig milltir yr oedd angen eu cyrraedd ar y daith tuag at ein nod derfynol o ddileu tlodi plant erbyn 2020. Mae’r ystadegau diweddaraf yn dangos gwelliant pendant ar sail y targedau hyn mewn un rhan o dair o’r meysydd, ac yr wyf yn croesawu’r cynnydd hwnnw. Ar y llaw arall, yr wyf yn rhwystredig hefyd mai ychydig iawn o gynnydd, os o gwbl, sydd i’w weld hyd yn hyn ar gyfer 32 y cant o’r dangosyddion.

3.40 p.m.

I know that many of you here are just as passionate as I am about this issue and that you will share my frustration. We must redouble our efforts and recalibrate our focus in this area, because the dangers of not doing so truly do not bear thinking about. We all know that ensuring equality in educational opportunity and outcome, that is educational attainment disconnected from the accidental social circumstances a child finds himself or herself in, has long been recognised as a powerful tool in breaking the cycle of child poverty. I therefore welcome the renewed impetus that the report provides in this area.

Gwn fod nifer ohonoch yma’n teimlo cyn gryfed â minnau ynglŷn â’r mater hwn ac y byddwch fel finnau’n teimlo’n rhwystredig. Rhaid inni ymdrechu’n galetach ac ailbennu ein ffocws yn y maes hwn, oherwydd mae’n gas iawn gennyf feddwl am beryglon peidio â gwneud hynny. Gwyddom i gyd fod sicrhau cydraddoldeb o ran cyfleoedd a chanlyniadau addysgol, hynny yw, cyrhaeddiad addysgol heb fod yn gysylltiedig â’r amgylchiadau cymdeithasol damweiniol y mae plentyn yn cael ei hun ynddynt, wedi ei gydnabod ers tro fel arf pwerus er mwyn torri cylch tlodi plant. O ganlyniad, yr wyf yn croesawu’r ysgogiad newydd y mae’r adroddiad yn ei roi yn y maes hwn.

There is much to welcome in this report, and I pay tribute to the committee members for it. The appointment of a senior official responsible for measuring delivery against the targets we set out in ‘Measuring Success’ and the various new duties to be placed on schools and local authorities all represent positive steps. I am pleased that the committee has recommended that participation and consultation with teachers, trade unions and others should take place at the earliest possible stage of the policy process. This social partnership approach to

Mae llawer i’w groesawu yn yr adroddiad hwn, a rhoddaf deyrnged i aelodau’r pwyllgor a’i lluniodd. Mae penodi uwch swyddog i fod yn gyfrifol am fesur cyflawniad ar sail y targedau a bennwyd gennym yn ‘Mesur Llwyddiant’, a’r amrywiol ddyletswyddau newydd sydd i’w rhoi i ysgolion ac awdurdodau lleol, i gyd yn gamau cadarnhaol. Yr wyf yn falch bod y pwyllgor wedi argymell y dylai cyfranogi ac ymgynghori ag athrawon, undebau llafur ac eraill ddechrau cyn gynted ag y bo modd yn ystod y broses bolisi. Mae’r dull hwn o fynd

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the problem is a welcome step forward, and one that I would like to see echoed across all areas of Government and brought together as a coherent whole.

i’r afael â’r broblem drwy bartneriaeth gymdeithasol yn gam ymlaen, ac mae i’w groesawu. Hoffwn weld ei adleisio ym mhob rhan o’r Llywodraeth ac yn cael ei ddwyn ynghyd fel un cyfanwaith cydlynol.

I also note with interest the recommendations for a new child poverty strategy and the various areas for further research proposed by the committee. However, we must bear in mind that, although further research and statistical analysis may be useful, and, in some instances, essential, if we are to make it a measure of progress, we must ensure that it is not at the expense of delivery and real action.

Sylwaf hefyd gyda diddordeb ar yr argymhellion yn ymwneud â strategaeth newydd ar dlodi plant, a’r meysydd amrywiol ar gyfer rhagor o ymchwil a gynigir gan y pwyllgor. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gofio, er y gallai rhagor o ymchwil a dadansoddi ystadegol fod yn ddefnyddiol, ac yn hanfodol mewn rhai achosion os ydym am ei wneud yn fesur o gynnydd, rhaid inni sicrhau nad yw hynny ar draul darparu a gweithredu go iawn.

I fear too that the increased burden that some of the recommendations might place on local authorities will hit hardest in the places where deprivation is most acute—that is self-evident. With this in mind, I repeat my call—depressingly familiar to me, so please do not complain, because I have heard it more often than anybody else—to look again at the funding formula for local government so that it gives proper weighting to deprivation and need.

Ofnaf hefyd y bydd y baich ychwanegol y gallai rhai o’r argymhellion ei roi ar awdurdodau lleol yn taro galetaf yn y mannau lle mae amddifadedd ar ei waethaf—mae hynny’n amlwg ohono’i hun. Gyda hyn mewn golwg, yr wyf yn ailddatgan fy nghais—torcalonnus o gyfarwydd i mi, felly peidiwch â chwyno, da chi, oherwydd yr wyf wedi’i glywed yn amlach na neb arall—ar i chi edrych unwaith yn rhagor ar y fformiwla i ariannu llywodraeth leol er mwyn sicrhau ei bod yn rhoi pwysoliad priodol i amddifadedd ac angen.

When the political history of this recession is written, we should be sure in advance of at least one thing, that we will not be accused of repeating the mistakes of the last recession of the 1980s and leave behind us a damaged generation. To do that, our work to eradicate child poverty must continue and, because of the recession, we must redouble it. Although economies might recover, damaged kids do not.

Pan ysgrifennir hanes gwleidyddol y dirwasgiad hwn, mae o leiaf un peth y dylem fod yn siŵr ohono ymlaen llaw, sef na fyddwn yn cael ein cyhuddo o ailadrodd camgymeriadau’r dirwasgiad diwethaf yn y 1980au ac yn gadael ar ein hôl genhedlaeth sydd wedi cael niwed. Er mwyn gwneud hynny, rhaid i’n gwaith i ddileu tlodi plant barhau, ac oherwydd y dirwasgiad rhaid inni ymdrechu’n galetach. Er y gall economïau wella, ond nid plant sydd wedi cael niwed yn gwella.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I thank the committee Chair and all the committee members for conducting this very valuable work. As an Assembly Member, I have come to appreciate, having sat on other committees, that we are in a unique position in the way that we take evidence. Angela Burns and the Chair highlighted the fact that the committee was able to take first-hand evidence from children, parents and all providers in the education field—people with first-hand

Andrew R.T. Davies: Hoffwn ddiolch i Gadeirydd y pwyllgor a holl aelodau’r pwyllgor am y gwaith hynod werthfawr hwn y maent wedi’i wneud. Fel Aelod Cynulliad, yr wyf wedi dod i sylweddoli, gan fy mod wedi eistedd ar bwyllgorau eraill, ein bod mewn sefyllfa unigryw o ran y ffordd yr ydym yn clywed tystiolaeth. Cyfeiriodd Angela Burns a’r Cadeirydd at y ffaith fod y pwyllgor wedi gallu cael tystiolaeth o lygad y ffynnon, gan blant, rhieni a phob darparwr

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experience. That experience and evidence, brought together in such a report that offers recommendations, provide a route map, so to speak, for addressing the issue of child poverty and what education can do to lift people out of poverty.

ym maes addysg—pobl sydd â phrofiad uniongyrchol. Mae’r profiad hwnnw a’r dystiolaeth, a ddygwyd ynghyd mewn adroddiad o’r fath sy’n cynnig argymhellion, yn darparu trywydd, fel petai, er mwyn rhoi sylw i fater tlodi plant a’r hyn y gall addysg ei wneud i godi pobl allan o dlodi.

However, the real issue is what action the Government takes when reports such as this are published. I must say that I have stood here many a time over the past few months as various issues in the education field have come forward and numerous recommendations have been made—we were here last week discussing small schools, and just before Christmas we discussed the funding gap. The committee will have to revisit this to ensure that the recommendations are followed through. There are 27 recommendations, and many of the key ones are accepted only in principle. There must now be a follow-up process to ensure that the figure that Christine Chapman highlighted of 170,000 children in poverty in Wales begins to reduce. Yes, we can accept that we are in a very difficult financial climate, and that there will be a challenge for all budgets, but surely it is incumbent upon any decent and respectable society to ensure that everyone has equal opportunity and access to that opportunity. On that basis, we really will build a just society.

Fodd bynnag, y broblem go iawn yw pa gamau y bydd y Llywodraeth yn eu cymryd pan gyhoeddir adroddiadau fel hwn. Rhaid imi ddweud fy mod wedi sefyll yma droeon yn ystod y misoedd diwethaf wrth i faterion amrywiol ym maes addysg gael eu cyflwyno ac wrth i argymhellion niferus gael eu gwneud—yr oeddem yma yr wythnos diwethaf yn trafod ysgolion bach, ac ychydig cyn y Nadolig buom yn trafod y bwlch cyllido. Bydd yn rhaid i’r pwyllgor ddod yn ôl at hyn er mwyn sicrhau gweithredu’r argymhellion. Mae yna 27 o argymhellion, ac mae llawer o’r prif rai’n cael eu derbyn mewn egwyddor yn unig. Rhaid cael proses ddilynol yn awr i sicrhau bod y ffigur y cyfeiriodd Christine Chapman ato, sef 170,000 o blant mewn tlodi yng Nghymru, yn dechrau lleihau. Gallwn, gallwn dderbyn ein bod mewn hinsawdd ariannol anodd, ac y bydd pob cyllideb yn wynebu her, ond siawns nad yw’n ddyletswydd ar unrhyw gymdeithas weddus a pharchus i sicrhau bod pawb yn cael cyfle cyfartal a bod pawb yn gallu manteisio ar y cyfle hwnnw. Ar y sail honno, byddwn yn llwyddo o ddifrif i greu cymdeithas deg.

Turning to some of the recommendations in the report, I seek the Minister’s clarification and offer a comment on recommendation 27 in particular, regarding the allocation of resource. I raised this with the Minister yesterday during her statement. I used her constituency as an example because I think that it is a very good example. In a town like Barry, for example, you can find many of the indicators of poverty, and those that would attract funding or other levels of support. Sadly, because it is grouped together with the wider Vale of Glamorgan, as a local education authority area, all schools are excluded from many projects that could benefit schools in Barry. In terms of her new proposal for making resources available to areas, I would like to hear the Minister saying whether that will be on a school-by-school

I droi at rai o’r argymhellion yn yr adroddiad, gofynnaf am eglurhad gan y Gweinidog a chynigiaf sylw ynglŷn ag argymhelliad 27 yn fwyaf arbennig, sy’n ymwneud â dyrannu adnoddau. Codais hyn gyda’r Gweinidog ddoe yn ystod ei datganiad. Defnyddiais ei hetholaeth fel enghraifft oherwydd fy mod yn credu ei bod yn enghraifft dda iawn. Mewn tref fel y Barri, er enghraifft, gallwch weld nifer o ddangosyddion tlodi, a’r rheini a fyddai’n denu cyllid neu lefelau cymorth eraill. Yn anffodus, oherwydd ei bod wedi’i grwpio ynghyd ag ardal awdurdod addysg lleol ehangach Bro Morgannwg, caiff pob ysgol ei heithrio o nifer o brosiectau a allai fod o fudd i ysgolion yn y Barri. O safbwynt ei chynnig newydd i ryddhau adnoddau i’r ardaloedd hynny, hoffwn glywed y Gweinidog yn dweud ai fesul ysgol y gwneir

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basis, or whether it will be done through the old formula of using a local education authority basis. If we are to get under the skin of poverty and make sure that we lift children out of poverty, we must make sure that we get into the communities that require this resource rather than look on governance boundaries, and cross those boundaries to make sure that they do not act as deterrents.

hynny, ynteu a wneir hynny drwy’r hen fformiwla o ddefnyddio awdurdod addysg lleol fel sail. Os ydym am lwyddo i fynd dan groen tlodi a sicrhau ein bod yn codi plant allan o dlodi, rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn mynd i mewn i’r cymunedau lle mae arnynt angen yr adnodd hwn, yn hytrach nag edrych ar ffiniau llywodraethu, a chroesi’r ffiniau hynny er mwyn sicrhau nad ydynt yn gweithredu fel rhwystrau.

Many of the recommendations in the report refer to school meals, which is a valuable source of nutrition for children that also enables concentration in school. Jenny Randerson’s Measure on healthy eating is currently in progress. It is not just a matter of providing that meal; it is about providing the facilities within the schools to make sure that all children feel able to access a nutritional meal and balanced diet within schools. This is another resource issue. When we look at the children’s commissioner’s report ‘Lifting the Lid’, we see that many of the concerns that are raised about the infrastructure of schools are not necessarily about handling the individuals, the pupils and the age groups, but about the ability of school facilities to meet the aspirations of our politicians and school leaders.

Mae nifer o’r argymhellion yn yr adroddiad yn cyfeirio at brydau ysgol, sy’n ffynhonnell faeth werthfawr i blant ac sydd hefyd yn eu galluogi i ganolbwyntio yn yr ysgol. Mae Mesur Jenny Randerson y Mesur ar fwyta’n iach yn mynd rhagddo ar hyn o bryd. Fodd bynnag, nid darparu’r pryd hwnnw’n unig sydd dan sylw; mae’n ymwneud â darparu’r cyfleusterau yn yr ysgolion i sicrhau bod pob plentyn yn teimlo y gall gael pryd maethlon a deiet cytbwys mewn ysgolion. Mae hwn yn fater arall o adnoddau. Pan edrychwn ar adroddiad y comisiynydd plant ‘Codi’r Clawr’, gwelwn nad yw llawer o’r pryderon a godir am seilwaith ysgolion o anghenraid yn ymwneud â delio â’r unigolion, y disgyblion a’r grwpiau oedran, ond yn hytrach mae’n ymwneud â gallu’r cyfleusterau yn ein hysgolion i fodloni dyheadau ein gwleidyddion ac arweinwyr ein hysgolion.

I will close with the sentiments of my colleague, Angela Burns. One of the key factors in taking pupils forward in education is the pastoral nature of the education experience that teaching professionals can offer. When I was at school, each form had a school tutor and it was incumbent on the teaching profession to provide that pastoral care and that whole-school experience in caring for the individual. It came across forcefully and clear in Angela’s contribution that considerable work needs to be done on this angle, along with governing bodies. I note that the report highlights the importance of governing bodies and the need for training for governing bodies. We have a shortage of people putting themselves forward to become school governors in Wales. We must ensure that the whole joined-up school experience buys into this project.

Yr wyf am gloi drwy ategu barn fy nghyd-Aelod, Angela Burns. Un o’r ffactorau allweddol wrth fynd â disgyblion ymlaen mewn addysg yw natur fugeiliol y profiad addysg y gall gweithwyr addysgu proffesiynol ei gynnig. Pan oeddwn yn yr ysgol, yr oedd gan bob dosbarth diwtor ysgol ac yr oedd yn gyfrifoldeb ar y proffesiwn addysgu i ddarparu’r gofal bugeiliol hwnnw ynghyd â’r profiad ysgol-gyfan hwnnw wrth ofalu am yr unigolyn. Cyflëwyd yn rymus ac yn glir yng nghyfraniad Angela fod angen gwneud gwaith sylweddol ar y gogwydd hwn, ynghyd â chyrff llywodraethu. Sylwaf fod yr adroddiad yn tynnu sylw at bwysigrwydd cyrff llywodraethu a’r angen am hyfforddiant ar gyfer cyrff llywodraethu. Mae prinder pobl sy’n cynnig eu hunain i fod yn llywodraethwyr ysgol yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod yr holl brofiad ysgol cydgysylltiedig yn cyfranogi yn y prosiect hwn.

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Eleanor Burnham: As a former member of the committee, I would like to thank the Chair, Helen Mary Jones, the staff, all of the visitors who gave the most fantastic evidence, and also the people who allowed us to act as rapporteurs and join in their wonderful programmes.

Eleanor Burnham: Fel cyn-Aelod o’r pwyllgor, hoffwn ddiolch i’r Cadeirydd, Helen Mary Jones, i’r staff, i’r holl ymwelwyr a roddodd y dystiolaeth fwyaf ardderchog, a hefyd i’r bobl a ganiataodd inni weithio fel adroddwyr ac ymuno yn eu rhaglenni gwych.

It has been a real privilege to be involved in this very important report on child poverty, which I hope will not be put on a shelf. Unfortunately, the United Kingdom’s first children’s commissioner in his first annual report, of October 2008, described child poverty in Wales as a national disgrace. We know, from our own experience, that child poverty limits future life chances for enjoying the decent life that we are privileged to enjoy, whether in relation to enduring any kind of positive experience, be it family, social relationships, physical and mental health and wellbeing, and longevity. This can be seriously affected by the negative aspects that poverty pervades.

Bu’n fraint wirioneddol bod yn rhan o’r adroddiad pwysig iawn hwn ar dlodi plant, adroddiad yr wyf yn gobeithio na chaiff ei roi ar silff. Yn anffodus, disgrifiodd comisiynydd plant cyntaf y Deyrnas Unedig yn ei adroddiad blynyddol cyntaf, yn Hydref 2008, dlodi plant yng Nghymru fel gwarth cenedlaethol. Gwyddom, o’n profiadau ein hunain, fod tlodi plant yn cyfyngu’r cyfle mewn bywyd yn y dyfodol i fwynhau’r bywyd gweddus yr ydym ni’n freintiedig i’w fwynhau, boed mewn cysylltiad â dioddef unrhyw fath o brofiad cadarnhaol, boed yn deulu, perthynas gymdeithasol, lles ac iechyd meddwl a chorfforol, a hirhoedledd. Felly, gall yr agweddau negyddol sy’n treiddio drwy dlodi effeithio’n ddifrifol ar hyn.

I know a little bit about this from my vivid experience of teaching underachievers, who were wonderful kids but many of whom were from very impoverished backgrounds and were, as a result, underachieving, as described. It was a great education for me.

Gwn ryw ychydig am hyn o’m profiad cofiadwy yn addysgu tan-gyflawnwyr, a oedd yn blant ardderchog ond nifer ohonynt o gefndiroedd tlawd iawn, ac o’r herwydd yr oeddent yn tan-gyflawni, fel y’u disgrifiwyd. Yr oedd yn addysg wych imi.

I hope that the Minister will take on board recommendation 11 about teacher training to alert teachers to enable early identification and intervention.

Gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog yn derbyn argymhelliad 11 ynglŷn â hyfforddiant athrawon i ddeffro athrawon i allu adnabod ac ymyrryd yn gynnar.

We have the most amazing headteacher in the Wrexham area who Kirsty very kindly came to visit with me before Christmas. She is absolutely phenomenal; she engages completely with the being, the soul, and the whole aspect of a child’s wellbeing and future, which is well beyond what you would like to see in education.

Mae gennym bennaeth cwbl ryfeddol yn yr ardal yn Wrecsam, a daeth Kirsty yn garedig iawn gyda mi i ymweld â hi cyn y Nadolig. Mae hi’n hollol syfrdanol; mae’n ymgysylltu’n llwyr gydag ysbryd, enaid a phob agwedd ar les plentyn a’i ddyfodol, ac mae hyn ymhell y tu hwnt i’r hyn yr hoffech ei weld ym myd addysg.

3.50 p.m.

She is absolute proof of what Professor Egan told us about the transition phase being the most important phase and of the negative impact that it has on children moving from these wonderful schools, such as Ross Harris’s, to bigger, less friendly

Mae’n hi’n brawf diamod o’r hyn a ddywedodd yr Athro Egan wrthym mai’r cyfnod trawsnewid oedd y cyfnod pwysicaf a’r effaith negyddol a gaiff ar blant sy’n symud o’r ysgolion ardderchog hyn, megis ysgol Ross Harris, i amgylcheddau mwy, llai

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environments and who, consequently, fall by the wayside.

cyfeillgar a’r plant, o’r herwydd, yn syrthio ar fin y ffordd.

There are many wonderful recommendations that we have not got time to look into in great depth. However, I would like to mention one of them quickly. Recommendation 3 refers to refreshing existing programmes such as Communities First and Communities Next. While we are in the middle of the credit crunch, and because of the huge difficulties for local authorities that Huw Lewis so eloquently stated, we have to get better value for money. While Communities First is commendable in many regards, I feel that it does not dovetail or fit with other local authority programmes. Therefore, I suggest revisiting that, as per recommendation 3.

Mae yna nifer o argymhellion gwych nad oes gennym amser i edrych arnynt yn fanwl. Er hynny, hoffwn grybwyll un ohonynt yn gyflym. Mae argymhelliad 3 yn cyfeirio at adnewyddu rhaglenni sy’n bodoli eisoes megis Cymunedau yn Gyntaf a Chymunedau Nesaf. Tra’r ydym yng nghanol y wasgfa gredyd, ac oherwydd yr anawsterau aruthrol i awdurdodau lleol fel y mynegwyd mor huawdl gan Huw Lewis, rhaid inni gael mwy o werth am yr arian. Er bod Cymunedau yn Gyntaf yn glodwiw ar lawer ystyr, teimlaf nad yw’n asio nac yn cyd-fynd â rhaglenni eraill awdurdodau lleol. O’r herwydd, awgrymaf y dylem edrych drachefn ar honno, fel yn argymhelliad 3.

I also urge the Welsh Assembly Government as regards the other suggestions made. Jenny Randerson’s proposed Measure on healthy eating is going to be crucial. Let us be honest: there are many academic reports on the value of decent, good-quality food. As Mick Bates keeps reminding us, this would help local farmers as it should mean using the best-quality local produce. Many children do not appreciate the issue and value of having good-quality experiences relating to food. Conditions such as bulimia and anorexia coincide with problems that many of our children—particularly in poverty—have with food. I urge the Minister to consider this carefully.

Anogaf Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru hefyd o safbwynt yr awgrymiadau eraill a wnaed. Mae Mesur arfaethedig Jenny Randerson ar fwyta’n iach yn mynd i fod yn hanfodol. Gadewch inni fod yn onest: mae yna nifer o adroddiadau academaidd ar werth bwyd gweddus o ansawdd da. Fel y bydd Mick Bates yn ein hatgoffa’n barhaus, byddai hyn yn helpu ffermwyr lleol oherwydd dylai olygu defnyddio cynnyrch lleol o’r safon orau. Mae llawer o blant nad ydynt yn gwerthfawrogi’r mater a gwerth cael profiadau da mewn cysylltiad â bwyd. Mae cyflyrau megis bwlimia ac anorecsia yn cydredeg â’r problemau sydd gan lawer o’n plant—yn enwedig mewn tlodi—gyda bwyd. Anogaf y Gweinidog i ystyried hyn yn ofalus.

The Welsh Assembly Government and the Minister have shown that they do have a heart. However, we need action. As other Members have said, there are many wonderful programmes, but we have got to put our money where our mouth is. If you look at the report, it asserts that, more often than not, there are no financial implications to the recommendations. While appreciating what Huw said, we need to work smartly and more coherently. This is a matter as much of attitude as money. Therefore, please, this action is sorely needed. We do not want to leave a legacy, as Huw said, of having not done something positive to alleviate poverty in Wales.

Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a’r Gweinidog wedi dangos bod ganddynt galon. Er hynny, gweithredu sydd arnom ei angen. Fel y dywedodd Aelodau eraill, mae nifer o raglenni gwych, ond rhaid inni roi ein harian ar ein gair. Os edrychwch ar yr adroddiad, mae’n haeru, yn amlach na pheidio, nad oes dim goblygiadau ariannol i’r argymhellion. Er fy mod yn gwerthfawrogi’r hyn a ddywedodd Huw, mae angen inni weithio’n ddeheuig ac yn fwy cydlynol. Mae hyn yn ymwneud ag agwedd yn gymaint ag arian. Felly, os gwelwch yn dda, mae angen gweithredu hwn yn daer. Nid oes arnom eisiau gadael etifeddiaeth, fel y dywedodd Huw, o beidio â gwneud rhywbeth

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cadarnhaol i wella tlodi yng Nghymru.

The Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills (Jane Hutt): This has been such a valuable debate, following the evidence received by the committee. The children and young people’s commitment and the evidence that they gave was probably the most important aspect.

Y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau (Jane Hutt): Mae hon wedi bod yn ddadl mor werthfawr, ar ôl y dystiolaeth a gafodd y pwyllgor. Ymrwymiad y plant a’r bobl ifanc, ynghyd â’r dystiolaeth a roddasant, mae’n debygol, oedd yr elfen bwysicaf.

I welcome the recommendations, particularly in terms of the importance of teachers and their pastoral care. That will feed into our school effectiveness framework, our focus on professional skills, pedagogy, and the core skills that we have as part of our national children’s workforce strategy. We are disseminating good practice, and funding the Child Poverty Solutions—Wales project, led by the Welsh Local Government Association and Save the Children. We need local government to be at the forefront with us. This is a campaign to tackle child poverty. The monitoring and proofing are key, as Kirsty and Chris have said. And Huw, the global economic crisis is a time when we have to raise our voices. I will be attending the economic summit, along with John Griffiths and the Deputy First Minister. Children and education have to come first in terms of delivery. Funding is key, Andrew. Ensuring that our resources are targeted within universal services is why the issues around the Bramley report, our outcomes agenda, and about the formula are important. Finally, it is about strengthening the partnership between schools and local and national Government to achieve the best outcomes for our children and young people.

Croesawaf yr argymhellion, yn enwedig o safbwynt pwysigrwydd athrawon a’u gofal bugeiliol. Bydd hynny’n bwydo i’n fframwaith effeithiolrwydd ysgolion, i’n canolbwyntio ar sgiliau proffesiynol, addysgeg, a’r sgiliau craidd sydd gennym fel rhan o’n strategaeth genedlaethol ar weithlu’r plant. Yr ydym yn lledaenu arferion da, gan ariannu prosiect Datrys Tlodi Plant—Cymru, dan arweiniad Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ac Achub y Plant. Mae angen i lywodraeth leol fod ar y blaen gyda ni. Ymgyrch i fynd i’r afael â thlodi plant yw hon. Mae’r monitro a’r prawfesur yn allweddol, fel y dywedodd Kirsty a Chris. A Huw, mae’r argyfwng economaidd byd-eang yn adeg pan fydd rhaid inni godi’n lleisiau. Byddaf yn mynd i’r uwchgynhadledd, gyda John Griffiths a’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog. Rhaid i blant ac addysg ddod yn gyntaf o safbwynt darparu. Mae ariannu’n allweddol, Andrew. Sicrhau bod ein hadnoddau wedi’u targedu o fewn gwasanaethau cyffredinol yw’r rheswm pam y mae’r problemau gydag adroddiad Bramley, yr agenda ganlyniadau a’r fformiwla yn bwysig. Yn olaf, mae’n golygu cryfhau’r bartneriaeth rhwng ysgolion a Llywodraeth leol a Llywodraeth genedlaethol er mwyn sicrhau’r canlyniadau gorau i’n plant a’n pobl ifanc.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Chair of the committee, Helen Mary Jones, to reply to the debate.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Galwaf ar Gadeirydd y pwyllgor, Helen Mary Jones, i ymateb i’r ddadl.

Helen Mary Jones: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. You have made it clear that there are limits on my time as well. I will therefore not be able to respond to all the points that Members have made.

Helen Mary Jones: Diolch ichi, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Yr ydych wedi gwneud yn glir bod cyfyngiadau ar fy amser i hefyd. Ni fyddaf felly’n gallu ymateb i’r holl bwyntiau a wnaed gan yr Aelodau.

I welcome the Minister’s response with regard to the rights-based approach, which we all support, and the centrality of implementation. The committee very much

Yr wyf yn croesawu ymateb y Gweinidog o safbwynt y dull yn seiliedig ar hawliau, dull yr ydym i gyd yn gefnogol iddo, yn ogystal ag i’r canologrwydd gweithredu. Mae’r

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welcomes the forthcoming legislation, and we believe that those duties will be invaluable. However, we will still seek further clarity from the Government about those recommendations that have been accepted in principle; I will discuss this with other committee members, but, perhaps if we write to you in detail, Minister, we can ask you to come and see us again and talk us through this. I stress to Andrew R.T. Davies that our committee absolutely will not leave this alone. I can assure him, and maybe warn Ministers, that we will monitor the Government’s reaction and actual action on our recommendations. Members from across the Chamber have stressed the need to act. The commitment in words has been clear for a long time, as Huw Lewis said, and we need to turn those commitments into action, because as he rightly said, we cannot allow the current economic circumstances to distract us, and I am glad that the Minister concurred with him. He was also right to tell us that damaged children do not recover, and they cannot wait any longer.

pwyllgor yn croesawu’n fawr iawn y ddeddfwriaeth sydd ar y ffordd, a chredwn y bydd y dyletswyddau hynny’n amhrisiadwy. Er hynny, byddwn yn dal i geisio eglurhad pellach gan y Llywodraeth am yr argymhellion hynny sydd wedi eu derbyn mewn egwyddor; byddaf yn trafod hyn gydag aelodau eraill y pwyllgor, ond efallai, petaem yn ysgrifennu atoch yn fanwl, Weinidog, y gallwn ofyn ichi ddod i’n gweld eto a mynd â ni drwy hwn. Pwysleisiaf wrth Andrew R.T. Davies na fydd ein pwyllgor yn bendant ddim yn gadael llonydd i hyn. Gallaf ei sicrhau, ac efallai rybuddio Gweinidogion, y byddwn yn monitro ymateb ac union weithredu’r Llywodraeth ar ein hargymhellion. Mae Aelodau ym mhob cwr o’r Siambr wedi pwysleisio bod angen gweithredu. Mae’r addewid mewn geiriau yn glir ers amser, fel y dywedodd Huw Lewis, ac mae angen inni droi’r addewidion hynny’n weithredu, oherwydd, fel y dywedodd yn gywir, ni allwn ganiatáu i’r amgylchiadau economaidd presennol dynnu ein sylw, ac yr wyf yn falch bod y Gweinidog yn gytûn ag ef. Yr oedd hefyd yn iawn i ddweud wrthym nad yw plant sy’n cael niwed byth yn gwella, ac ni allant aros ddim hwy.

Angela Burns and others stressed the pivotal role of teachers, which is important. We ask a great deal of our teachers and schools, and it is right that our committee report stresses that they cannot do this alone; they need more help and support. We saw the importance of transition; it was good to hear Eleanor Burnham talking about a good example of a school working for and with children in poverty. However, we also saw during the process what works when it comes to transition. We know that the on-track approach works and that there is other good practice, but we now need for that to be replicated. We welcome very much what the Government is doing to share good practice, but I am sure that the Minister would agree that we need to go further than that, and, where there is reluctance to accept good practice, we will need statutory duties as well as the resources, as many Members have mentioned, to drive this forward.

Pwysleisiodd Angela Burns ac eraill rôl ganolog athrawon, ac mae hynny’n bwysig. Yr ydym yn gofyn llawer iawn gan ein hathrawon a’n hysgolion, ac mae’n iawn fod ein hadroddiad pwyllgor yn pwysleisio na allant wneud hyn ar eu pen eu hunain; mae arnynt angen rhagor o gymorth a chefnogaeth. Gwelsom bwysigrwydd trawsnewid; braf oedd clywed Eleanor Burnham yn siarad am enghraifft dda o ysgol yn gweithio dros blant mewn tlodi a chyda hwy. Serch hynny, gwelsom hefyd yn ystod y broses yr hyn sy’n gweithio pan ddaw’n amser trosglwyddo. Gwyddom fod y dull on-track yn gweithio a bod yna arferion da eraill, ond yn awr mae arnom angen i hwnnw gael ei ailadrodd. Croesawn yn fawr yr hyn y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i rannu arferion da, ond yr wyf yn sicr y byddai’r Gweinidog yn cytuno bod angen inni fynd ymhellach na hynny, ac os oes amharodrwydd i dderbyn arferion da, y bydd arnom angen dyletswyddau statudol ynghyd â’r adnoddau, fel y crybwyllodd nifer o Aelodau, i yrru hyn ymlaen.

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The image that Christine Chapman left us with of two stadiums, full of the children that we are letting down, will stay with me as a strong visual image, and it should stay with us all. Christine and others were right to stress that ending child poverty needs to be everyone’s business. We need our Government to ensure that it becomes everyone’s priority. Kirsty Williams’s contribution was very much welcomed, and I take this opportunity to welcome her in the Chamber as a member of our committee. She was right to remind us of the reality of the nature of the disadvantages faced by children growing up in poverty and she stressed the need for resources to follow priorities. I thank Eleanor Burnham once again for all her work on the committee, as well as for her contribution today. She has contributed a great deal to this report. We will miss her, although we welcome Kirsty Williams, who is taking her place.

Bydd y ddelwedd a gawsom gan Christine Chapman o ddau stadiwm yn llawn o’r plant yr ydym yn eu siomi yn aros gyda mi fel delwedd weledol gref, a dylai aros gyda ni oll. Yr oedd Christine ac eraill yn iawn i bwysleisio bod angen i roi pen ar dlodi plant gennym fod yn fater i bawb. Mae arnom angen i’n Llywodraeth sicrhau ei fod yn dod yn flaenoriaeth i bawb. Croesawyd cyfraniad Kirsty Williams yn fawr iawn, ac achubaf ar y cyfle hwn i’w chroesawu yn y Siambr fel aelod o’n pwyllgor. Yr oedd hi’n iawn i’n hatgoffa o realiti natur yr anfanteision sy’n wynebu plant sy’n cael eu magu mewn tlodi, a phwysleisiodd fod angen adnoddau i ddilyn y blaenoriaethau. Diolch i Eleanor Burnham unwaith eto am ei holl waith ar y pwyllgor, yn ogystal â’i chyfraniad heddiw. Mae hi wedi cyfrannu llawer iawn at yr adroddiad hwn. Bydd colled ar ei hôl, er ein bod yn croesawu Kirsty Williams, sy’n cymryd ei lle.

We have made specific recommendations, as a committee, and we are grateful to the Government for those that have been accepted clearly and unambiguously. However, we must stress that our recommendations are based on evidence; they are based on what we were told and what we saw. We know now, when it comes to tackling child poverty, what works and what does not. I completely take Huw Lewis’s point that we must not allow further research to hone and improve practice to be at the expense of what we already know makes a difference to children. Again, I return to that statement made by Huw Lewis: damaged children do not recover; they have one chance. We make them go to school. Can we think of any other state intervention into people’s lives of the same scale as insisting, quite rightly, that all our children access education? However, for too many of our children, in the end, that is failing them, because they stay trapped in poverty. We are all agreed around the Chamber that that is not acceptable. We all accept that the Ministers do not have all the tools, as I said earlier, at their disposal—they cannot change tax rates and they cannot set a more appropriate minimum wage, but there is a great deal that they can do. As a committee, we will continue to work co-operatively with our Ministers, and I thank them again for their

Yr ydym wedi gwneud argymhellion penodol, fel pwyllgor, ac yr ydym yn ddiolchgar i’r Llywodraeth am y rheini a dderbyniwyd yn glir ac yn ddiamwys. Er hynny, rhaid inni bwysleisio bod ein hargymhellion yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth; maent yn seiliedig ar yr hyn a ddywedwyd wrthym a’r hyn a welsom. Gwyddom yn awr, o safbwynt mynd i’r afael â thlodi plant, beth sy’n gweithio a beth nad yw’n gweithio. Derbyniaf bwynt Huw Lewis yn llwyr ei bod yn rhaid inni beidio â chaniatáu i ymchwil pellach i hogi a gwella’r arferion ddigwydd ar draul yr hyn a wyddom eisoes sy’n gwneud gwahaniaeth i blant. Unwaith eto, dychwelaf at y gosodiad hwnnw gan Huw Lewis: nid yw plant sy’n cael eu niweidio byth yn gwella; un cyfle sydd ganddynt. Yr ydym yn gwneud iddynt fynd i’r ysgol. A allwn ni feddwl am unrhyw ymyriad gwladwriaethol arall ym mywydau pobl i’r graddau â mynnu, yn gyfiawn felly, fod pob plentyn yn cael addysg? Er hynny, i ormod o’n plant, yn y diwedd mae hynny’n eu siomi, gan eu bod wedi’u dal mewn tlodi o hyd. Yr ydym i gyd yn gytûn o amgylch y Siambr nad yw hynny’n dderbyniol. Yr ydym i gyd yn derbyn nad oes gan y Gweinidogion yr holl gyfryngau, fel y dywedais yn gynharach, i’w defnyddio—ni allant newid cyfraddau treth ac ni allant bennu isafswm cyflog mwy priodol, ond mae llawer iawn y

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input into the report, but we will also—and I say this to you all—keep our eye on you.

gallant ei wneud. Fel pwyllgor, byddwn yn parhau i gydweithredu â’n Gweinidogion, a diolchaf iddynt drachefn am eu cyfraniad i’r adroddiad. Ond byddwn hefyd—a dywedaf hyn wrthych i gyd—yn cadw ein llygad arnoch.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is that the motion to note the report of the Children and Young People’s Committee be agreed. Is there any objection? I see that there is not. In that case, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno’r cynnig i nodi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Plant a Phobl Ifanc. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Gan hynny, cytunir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion carried.

Dadl y Ceidwadwyr CymreigWelsh Conservatives Debate

Addysg BellachFurther Education

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 and 2 in the name of Carwyn Jones, and amendments 3, 4 and 5 in the name of Peter Black.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1 a 2 yn enw Carwyn Jones, a gwelliannau 3, 4 a 5 yn enw Peter Black.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I propose that Andrew R.T. Davies: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. regrets the Welsh Assembly Government’s budgetary cuts to further education; and

1. yn gresynu bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi cwtogi’r gyllideb ar gyfer addysg bellach; a

2. believes that investment in the further education sector is particularly important during an economic recession when many people seek to retrain or improve their existing skills. (NDM4129)

2. yn credu bod buddsoddi yn y sector addysg bellach yn arbennig o bwysig yn ystod dirwasgiad economaidd pan fydd nifer o bobl yn ceisio ailhyfforddi neu wella eu sgiliau. (NDM4129)

4.00 p.m.

I will first deal with the amendments. We will not support amendment 1. Merely noting the budgetary challenges is nowhere near strong enough; we are calling on the Assembly to regret the fact that the Assembly Government has chosen, in these difficult economic times, to cut the funding to further education.

Ymdriniaf i ddechrau â’r gwelliannau. Byddwn yn gwrthod gwelliant 1. Nid yw nodi’n unig yr heriau cyllidebol ddim byd yn agos at fod yn ddigon cryf; galwn ar y Cynulliad i resynu at y ffaith fod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, yn y cyfnod economaidd anodd hwn, wedi dewis lleihau’r cyllid i addysg bellach.

We will abstain on amendment 2 in the name Byddwn yn atal ein pleidlais ar welliant 2 yn

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of Carwyn Jones. While we note the increase in capacity for apprenticeships, we ask the Assembly to note that these are provided through private training partnerships rather than further education. Some 95 per cent of places are provided through such partnerships, with only 5 per cent provided through the further education sector. This debate is about providing resources and purpose to the further education sector.

enw Carwyn Jones. Er ein bod yn nodi’r cynnydd yn y lleoedd ar gyfer prentisiaethau, gofynnwn i’r Cynulliad nodi bod y rhain yn cael eu darparu drwy bartneriaethau hyfforddi preifat yn hytrach nag addysg bellach. Darperir rhyw 95 y cant o leoedd drwy bartneriaethau o’r fath, a 5 y cant yn unig drwy’r sector addysg bellach. Mae a wnelo’r ddadl hon â darparu adnoddau a phwrpas i’r sector addysg bellach.

We shall support amendment 3, as it urges the Assembly to review the overall funding settlement for further education. That would be logical, given the moveable feast that we have at the moment in terms of the economy. In light of the representations that the Deputy Minister will undoubtedly have received from sectors within FE, we believe that a review would be sensible.

Cefnogwn welliant 3, gan ei fod yn annog y Cynulliad i adolygu’r setliad ariannol cyffredinol ar gyfer addysg bellach. Byddai hynny’n rhesymegol, o gofio’r sefyllfa ansefydlog ar hyn o bryd o ran yr economi. Yng ngoleuni’r sylwadau y bydd y Dirprwy Weinidog yn ddi-os wedi’u cael oddi wrth sectorau o fewn addysg bellach, credwn y byddai adolygiad yn beth synhwyrol.

Amendment 4 asks the Government to recognise the severe pressure faced by FE colleges and to provide a more coherent and stable funding stream. We believe the Government should move towards a three-year budget plan for further education colleges. The Government has a three-year funding plan in place, so why can it not have a more balanced and even-handed approach to FE colleges so that they can provide their courses and provide consistency in the level of educational attainment that they wish to deliver?

Mae gwelliant 4 yn gofyn i’r Llywodraeth gydnabod y pwysau difrifol sydd ar golegau addysg bellach ac i ddarparu ffrwd ariannu fwy cydlynol a sefydlog. Credwn y dylai’r Llywodraeth symud tuag at gynllun cyllideb tair blynedd i golegau addysg bellach. Mae gan y Llywodraeth gynllun ariannu tair blynedd, felly, pam na all gael ymagwedd fwy cytbwys a thecach at golegau addysg bellach fel y gallant ddarparu eu cyrsiau a sicrhau cysondeb yn lefel y cyrhaeddiad addysgol y maent yn dymuno’i ddarparu?

We will also support amendment 5 in the name of Peter Black, which refers to the need for permanent growth in skills training, which is in line with Conservative aspirations.

Byddwn hedfyd yn cefnogi gwelliant 5 yn enw Peter Black, sy’n cyfeirio at yr angen am dwf parhaol mewn hyfforddiant sgiliau, sy’n gyson â dyheadau’r Ceidwadwyr.

Today’s debate is a simple one. It is a debate about whether the Government supports the further education sector or not. Time and again, Ministers have stood in the Chamber to tell us about the importance of training and the capacity that they are building in training. However, when you go to the providers’ forum and speak to the principals and chairmen of the FE colleges, it appears not to be the case.

Dadl syml yw’r ddadl hon heddiw. Dadl ydyw ar y cwestiwn a yw’r Llywodraeth yn cefnogi’r sector addysg bellach ai peidio. Dro ar ôl tro, mae Gweinidogion wedi sefyll yn y Siambr i sôn wrthym am bwysigrwydd hyfforddiant a’r capasiti y maent yn ei greu ym maes hyfforddi. Fodd bynnag, pan ewch i fforwm y darparwyr a siarad â phenaethiaid a chadeiryddion colegau addysg bellach, mae’n ymddangos nad felly y mae hi.

What is further education in Wales? Further education is provided by 25 colleges and over 220,000 students attend further education

Beth yw addysg bellach yng Nghymru? Darperir addysg bellach gan 25 o golegau ac mae dros 220,000 o fyfyrwyr yn mynychu

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colleges in Wales. Of those students, 82 per cent are part-time students and 18 per cent are full-time students. Indeed, 7,500 students seek to attain their higher education undergraduate status via FE colleges. Some 75 per cent of all students who attend further education colleges are over the age of 19. With regard to provision for 16 to 19-year-olds, more people train through the FE colleges than through school sixth forms Therefore, they are an integral part of providing the educational portfolio and the educational attainment levels that we need in Wales.

colegau addysg bellach yng Nghymru. O’r myfyrwyr hynny, mae 82 y cant yn fyfyrwyr rhan amser a 18 y cant yn fyfyrwyr amser llawn. Yn wir, mae 7,500 o fyfyrwyr yn ceisio ennill eu statws fel israddedigion addysg uwch drwy golegau addysg bellach. O’r holl fyfyrwyr sy’n mynd i golegau addysg bellach, mae rhyw 75 y cant dros 19 oed. O ran y ddarpariaeth i rai 16 i 19 oed, mae mwy o bobl yn cael eu hyfforddi drwy golegau addysg bellach na thrwy’r chweched dosbarth mewn ysgolion. Felly, maent yn rhan annatod o ddarparu’r portffolio addysg a’r lefelau cyrhaeddiad addysgol y mae arnom eu hangen yng Nghymru.

Sadly, the Government fails to recognise this. It has delivered a real-terms budget cut of £3 million in its settlement for further education colleges this year. If you look at Fforwm’s request with regard to delivering increased capacity and meeting the demand among learners over the age of 19, it equates to a £20 million cut, because the budget provided by the Department for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills to further education has been cut by more than appears to be the case on the surface, despite DCELLS gaining an increase in its overall budget settlement. This is surely an unsustainable approach. It demonstrates inconsistency, and the Government’s lack of credibility in this field. There is inconsistency between what the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economy and Transport talks about and what the Deputy Minister with responsibility for further education is delivering.

Gwaetha’r modd, nid yw’r Llywodraeth yn cydnabod hyn. Mae wedi gostwng y gyllideb £3 miliwn mewn termau real yn ei setliad i golegau addysg bellach eleni. Os edrychwch ar gais Fforwm o ran darparu mwy o gapasiti ac ateb y galw ymhlith dysgwyr dros 19 oed, mae’n gyfystyr â thoriad o £20 miliwn, oherwydd mae’r gyllideb a ddarperir gan yr Adran Plant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau ar gyfer addysg bellach wedi’i chwtogi’n fwy nag a ymddengys ar yr wyneb, er i’r adran gael cynnydd yn ei setliad cyllideb cyffredinol. Mae hyn, bid siŵr, yn ffordd anghynaliadwy o fynd ati. Mae’n dangos anghysondeb, a diffyg hygrededd y Llywodraeth yn y maes hwn. Mae anghysondeb rhwng yr hyn y mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth yn siarad amdano a’r hyn y mae’r Dirprwy Weinidog sydd â chyfrifoldeb dros addysg bellach yn ei ddarparu.

Look at the Government’s record on including the further and higher education sectors in helping us to work through this economic crisis. Not one representative from the sector has been invited to your economic summits even though, time and again, Ministers have stood in the Chamber and said this is the main vehicle that will drive us out of the recession. Where was the further education sector, Minister? Where was the higher education sector? I doubt whether they were even on your horizon or on your radar. That must be corrected if your commitment to deliver a more sustainable further education sector in Wales is to be taken seriously.

Edrychwch ar record y Llywodraeth o ran cynnwys y sectorau addysg bellach ac addysg uwch yn y broses o’n helpu i weithio drwy’r argyfwng economaidd hwn. Nid oes yr un cynrychiolydd o’r sector wedi’i wahodd i’ch uwchgynadleddau economaidd er bod Gweinidogion, dro ar ôl tro, wedi sefyll yn y Siambr a dweud mai dyma’r prif gyfrwng a fydd yn dod â ni allan o’r dirwasgiad. Ble’r oedd y sector addysg bellach, Weinidog? Ble’r oedd y sector addysg uwch? Yr wyf yn amau a oeddent hyd yn oed ar eich gorwel nac ar eich radar. Rhaid cywiro hynny os ydych am i’ch ymrwymiad i ddarparu sector addysg bellach mwy cynaliadwy yng Nghymru gael ei gymryd o ddifrif.

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We are two years into the convergence funding programme, but, so far, not one farthing has been delivered to a single further education college in Wales. What a lamentable record from the One Wales Government.

Yr ydym ddwy flynedd i mewn i’r rhaglen arian cydgyfeirio, ond hyd yn hyn nid oes yr un ffyrling wedi’i darparu i ddim un coleg addysg bellach yng Nghymru. Dyna ichi record druenus gan Lywodraeth Cymru’n Un.

Look at the support that the One Wales Government offers disadvantaged families and families from financially-challenged backgrounds to attend academic courses in further education colleges. A 10 per cent cut in the financial contingency fund was delivered overnight to colleges last year because of financial pressures in the Department for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills budget. We have just had a debate on lifting children out of poverty and yet the financial contingency fund, which is made available to further education colleges to help with childcare costs, bus fares and so on so that people can make themselves economically active and enhance their skills and be proactive in the marketplace, received a cut from this Government. When you look at the education maintenance allowance for post-16 provision, the debacle that the department has presided over has left, on 1 January, 4,500 students still waiting this valuable grant so that they can further their academic activity. So much for caring and so much for social justice from this Government.

Edrychwch ar y gefnogaeth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un yn ei chynnig i deuluoedd difreintiedig a theuluoedd o gefndiroedd tlawd i fynychu cyrsiau academaidd mewn colegau addysg bellach. Cafwyd gostyngiad o 10 y cant dros nos yn y gronfa ariannol wrth gefn i golegau y llynedd oherwydd pwysau ariannol yng nghyllideb yr Adran Plant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau. Yr ydym newydd gael dadl ar godi plant allan o dlodi, ac eto mae’r gronfa ariannol wrth gefn, a ddarperir i golegau addysg bellach i helpu gyda chostau gofal plant, tocynnau bws ac ati, fel y gall pobl sicrhau eu bod yn economaidd weithredol a gwella’u sgiliau a bod yn rhagweithiol yn y farchnad, wedi ei chwtogi gan y Llywodraeth hon. Pan edrychwch ar y lwfans cynhaliaeth addysg ar gyfer darpariaeth ôl-16, mae’r llanastr y mae’r Llywodraeth wedi’i wneud wedi golygu bod 4,500 o fyfyrwyr, ar 1 Ionawr, yn dal i aros am y grant gwerthfawr hwn fel y gallant fwrw ymlaen â’u gweithgaredd academaidd. Dyna yw’r gofal a dyna yw’r cyfiawnder cymdeithasol gan y Llywodraeth hon.

This Government needs to show leadership to deliver a coherent strategy so that further education colleges can develop their courses and a sustainable pattern of education and can invest in their infrastructure and capacity to meet the goals in the way that many English further education colleges currently enjoy. If devolution is to succeed, people need to see real benefits in their everyday lives and the services around them, and when I talk to people in the further education sector and Fforwm, they tell me that they are falling behind their counterparts in England because of the lack of resources made available by the Welsh Assembly Government. Therefore, we also request that the Assembly Government gives serious thought to providing a three-year budget plan and commitment so that further education colleges can develop the coherent and joined-up planning that they

Mae angen i’r Llywodraeth hon ddangos arweiniad i ddarparu strategaeth gydlynol fel y gall colegau addysg bellach ddatblygu eu cyrsiau a phatrwm addysg cynaliadwy, a buddsoddi yn eu hisadeiledd a’u gallu i gyflawni’r amcanion fel y mae nifer o golegau addysg bellach Lloegr yn ei fwynhau ar hyn o bryd. Os yw datganoli am lwyddo, mae angen i bobl weld buddiannau go iawn yn eu bywydau bob dydd a’r gwasanaethau o’u cwmpas, a phan siaradaf â phobl yn y sector addysg bellach ac yn Fforwm, dywedant wrthyf eu bod yn colli tir i’w cymheiriaid yn Lloegr oherwydd y diffyg adnoddau a ddarperir gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Felly, gofynnwn hefyd i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad feddwl yn ddifrifol am ddarparu cynllun ac ymrwymiad cyllideb tair blynedd fel y gall colegau addysg bellach ddatblygu’r cynllunio cydlynol y mae ei

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desperately need in order to deliver. We want the Deputy Minister to explain why this is not being delivered to the FE sector when he responds to this debate this afternoon. I urge Members to support our motion.

ddirfawr angen arnynt er mwyn cyflawni. Mae arnom eisiau i’r Dirprwy Weinidog egluro pam nad yw hyn yn cael ei ddarparu i’r sector addysg bellach pan fydd yn ymateb i’r ddadl hon y prynhawn yma. Anogaf Aelodau i gefnogi ein cynnig.

The Deputy Minister for Skills (John Griffiths): I propose the following amendments in the name of Carwyn Jones. Amendment 1: delete point 1 and replace with:

Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Sgiliau (John Griffiths): Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Carwyn Jones. Gwelliant 1: dileu pwynt 1 a rhoi yn ei le:

notes that the Welsh Assembly Government recognises the budgetary challenges facing further education.

yn nodi bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn cydnabod yr heriau cyllidebol sy’n wynebu addysg bellach.

Amendment 2: insert a new point at the end of the motion:

Gwelliant 2: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

welcomes the recent Welsh Assembly Government announcement on additional funding for apprenticeships and ProAct.

yn croesawu’r cyhoeddiad a wnaed yn ddiweddar gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ynghylch cyllid ychwanegol ar gyfer prentisiaethau ac ar gyfer y rhaglen ProAct.

Jenny Randerson: I propose the following amendments in the name of Peter Black. Amendment 3: add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Jenny Randerson: Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Peter Black. Gwelliant 3: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

notes the impact the overall cut in funding will have on learners and urges the Welsh Assembly Government to review the overall funding settlement to FE.

yn nodi’r effaith a gaiff y toriad cyffredinol mewn cyllid ar ddysgwyr ac yn annog Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i adolygu’r setliad cyllido cyffredinol i addysg bellach.

I propose amendment 4: add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Gwelliant 4: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

recognises that the complexity of the funding mechanism for FE places severe pressure on colleges’ ability to plan ahead and calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to give serious consideration to move towards greater funding stability for FE.

yn cydnabod bod cymhlethdod y dulliau cyllido ar gyfer addysg bellach yn rhoi pwysau difrifol ar allu colegau i gynllunio i’r dyfodol ac yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i ystyried o ddifrif symud at fwy o sefydlogrwydd cyllido ar gyfer addysg bellach.

I propose amendment 5: add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Gwelliant 5: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to urgently explain why, at a time when there is a wide acceptance of the need for permanent growth in skills training, the overall FE budget has been cut in real terms while the overall Department for Children, Education,

yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i egluro’n ddiymdroi pam, ar adeg pan dderbynnir yn eang bod angen twf parhaol mewn hyfforddiant sgiliau, bod cyllideb gyffredinol addysg bellach wedi cael ei thorri mewn termau real a bod cyllideb gyffredinol

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Lifelong Learning and Skills budget has increased.

yr Adran Plant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau wedi cynyddu.

I thank the Conservatives for bringing forward such an important topic, about which I feel very passionately. It is relatively rare for people to feel that passionately about further education; Andrew’s passion is uncommon in itself. One of the great problems with our society and progress in our society is that we have consistently undervalued the sector that provides that opportunity for adult learning and learning for our older teenagers. It is crucial to our progress as a society. There is little doubt across the Chamber about the importance—both economical and educational—of further education, but it is also crucial that we accept the importance of FE to the development of greater social inclusion.

Diolch i’r Ceidwadwyr am ddod â phwnc mor bwysig gerbron, pwnc yr wyf yn teimlo’n angerddol iawn yn ei gylch. Mae’n gymharol brin i bobl deimlo mor angerddol â hynny am addysg bellach; mae angerdd Andrew yn anarferol ynddo’i hun. Un o broblemau mawr ein cymdeithas a chynnydd yn ein cymdeithas yw ein bod yn gyson wedi dibrisio’r sector sy’n darparu cyfle i oedolion gael dysgu ac i bobl yn eu harddegau hŷn gael dysgu. Mae’n hollbwysig i’n datblygiad fel cymdeithas. Nid oes fawr ddim amheuaeth ar draws y Siambr am bwysigrwydd addysg bellach—yn economaidd ac yn addysgol—ond mae’n hollbwysig hefyd inni dderbyn pwysigrwydd addysg bellach i ddatblygiad cynhwysiant cymdeithasol.

We brought forward our amendments in order to flesh out some of the crises that FE is facing and to ensure that these calls are not just about the role of FE in tough economic times, but in better times. There are two simple categories, which are equally serious. First, there is a crisis in revenue, shown by the £3 million cut in next year’s budget, which will have a direct impact on the sector’s ability to deliver the skills agenda. It is important to emphasise that this is made worse by the essential priority that FE colleges make further progress towards pay parity, in a year when they are facing a paid deal of roughly 2.5 per cent. Secondly, we must not lose sight of the deepening crisis in capital funding.

Daethom â’n gwelliannau gerbron er mwyn rhoi cnawd ar esgyrn rhai o’r argyfyngau sy’n wynebu addysg bellach, ac i sicrhau nad am rôl addysg bellach mewn cyfnod economaidd caled yn unig y mae’r galwadau hyn, ond mewn cyfnod gwell hefyd. Mae dau gategori syml, sydd yr un mor ddifrifol â’i gilydd. Yn gyntaf, mae argyfwng o safbwynt refeniw, a ddangosir gan y toriad o £3 miliwn yng nghyllideb y flwyddyn nesaf, a gaiff effaith uniongyrchol ar allu’r sector i ddarparu’r agenda sgiliau. Mae’n bwysig pwysleisio y gwneir hyn yn waeth oherwydd bod angen i golegau addysg bellach symud yn nes at gydraddoldeb cyflog, mewn blwyddyn pan wynebant gytundeb cyflogau o ryw 2.5 y cant. Yn ail, rhaid inni beidio â cholli golwg ar yr argyfwng cynyddol mewn cyllid cyfalaf.

4.10 p.m.

It is always tempting to focus on the school-building programme, but quite rightly, we now need to focus on the crisis in further education. The Webb report estimated that £200 million would be required to bring facilities up to standard and we are a long way from that; the Government is offering £27 million through one scheme or another and further education colleges are suggesting that £50 million would enable them to start making some progress. To put this in context,

Mae bob amser yn demtasiwn canolbwyntio ar y rhaglen adeiladu ysgolion, ond yn hollol gywir mae angen inni bellach ganolbwyntio ar yr argyfwng mewn addysg bellach. Amcangyfrifai adroddiad Webb y byddai angen £200 miliwn i godi’r cyfleusterau i’r safon ofynnol, ac yr ydym ymhell o wneud hynny; mae’r Llywodraeth yn cynnig £27 miliwn drwy ryw gynllun neu’i gilydd, ac mae colegau addysg bellach yn awgrymu y byddai £50 miliwn yn eu galluogi i ddechrau

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one college in the north-east of England has received £60 million, which is more than the budget for the whole FE sector in Wales over the last five years.

camu ymlaen rywfaint. I roi hyn yn ei gyd-destun, mae un coleg yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Lloegr wedi cael £60 miliwn, sy’n fwy na’r gyllideb ar gyfer y sector addysg bellach yn gyfan yng Nghymru dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf.

The problem that we have is that the Government’s rhetoric never matches its delivery. It talks about post-16 education and valuing skills, but it does not deliver in the budget. Around 70 per cent of those who will be in the workforce in 2020 are already of working age, so how on earth are they going to upskill to cope with the recession and the growing economy once that recession is over? How are they going to ensure that they are suitable for the workforce if they are not able to take part in further education? It is worth pointing out that the Government only funds further education for growth for 16 to 18-year-olds—it assumes that there will be a standstill in the number of students over the age of 18.

Ein problem yw nad yw rhethreg y Llywodraeth byth yn cyfateb i’r hyn y mae’n ei ddarparu. Sonia am addysg ôl-16 a rhoi gwerth ar sgiliau, ond nid yw’n darparu’r gyllideb. Mae tua 70 y cant o’r rheini a fydd yn y gweithlu yn 2020 eisoes yn oed gweithio, felly, sut ar y ddaear y maent i wella’u sgiliau i ymdopi â’r dirwasgiad a’r economi gynyddol pan fydd y dirwasgiad hwnnw ar ben? Sut y maent i sicrhau eu bod yn addas ar gyfer y gweithlu os na allant gymryd rhan mewn addysg bellach? Mae’n werth tynnu sylw at y ffaith mai ar gyfer pobl 16 i 18 oed yn unig y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ariannu addysg bellach ar gyfer twf—mae’n tybio na fydd symud yn nifer y myfyrwyr dros 18 oed.

Deputy Minister, you may have had those plans back in July, when you started looking at the budget, but the world has changed since then and the job of Government is to respond to change in a timely manner. Older people are not going to be able to upskill to compete if you do not go to the Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery to ask for additional money for further education. I agree with the motion that, in a time of economic recession, retraining and upskilling the workforce are more important than ever. I agree with John Denham that,

Ddirprwy Weinidog, efallai fod y cynlluniau hynny gennych yn ôl ym mis Gorffennaf, pan ddechreuasoch edrych ar y gyllideb, ond mae’r byd wedi newid ers hynny, a gwaith y Llywodraeth yw ymateb i newid mewn modd amserol. Nid yw pobl hŷn yn mynd i allu wella’u sgiliau i gystadlu os nad ewch at y Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus i ofyn am arian ychwanegol ar gyfer addysg bellach. Cytunaf â’r cynnig fod ailhyfforddi a gwella sgiliau’n bwysicach nag erioed ar adeg o ddirwasgiad economaidd. Cytunaf â John Denham,

‘When someone is facing redundancy…they need to know that colleges will be there to help them with advice and support as well as education and training.’

Pan fydd rhywun yn wynebu colli’i swydd... mae angen iddo wybod y bydd colegau yno i’w helpu gyda chyngor a chefnogaeth yn ogystal ag addysg a hyfforddiant.

I hope that you also agree with John Denham, Deputy Minister.

Gobeithio eich bod chithau’n cytuno â John Denham, Ddirprwy Weinidog.

Darren Millar: I am pleased to be able to contribute to this debate today. Its timing is absolutely perfect because given the current financial difficulties faced by people and businesses in Wales, we need to be talking about solutions to help them to get back on their feet and out of the recession. The FE sector will be critical in helping people to

Darren Millar: Yr wyf yn falch gallu cyfrannu at y ddadl hon heddiw. Mae ei hamseriad yn gwbl berffaith, oherwydd yn wyneb yr anawsterau ariannol presennol sy’n wynebu pobl a busnesau yng Nghymru, mae angen inni fod yn siarad am atebion i’w helpu i godi’n ôl ar eu traed ac allan o’r dirwasgiad. Bydd y sector addysg bellach yn

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upskill to get into the workplace, or to expand their skills base while they are in work in order to retain their jobs. Yet, at a time such as this, the Assembly Government is cutting the sector’s budget. When we met Fforwm last week, as the Welsh Conservative group, I was astonished to hear that a number of colleges were facing cuts in their budgets of over 6 per cent. How do you expect colleges to be able to continue to deliver the high-quality education that they are delivering—if you look at Estyn reports—when they are facing cuts of 6 per cent in their budgets? This is happening at a time when unemployment is rising faster in Wales than in any other part of the United Kingdom and currently stands at almost 7 per cent of the working-age population. Long-term unemployment was up by over 10 per cent between June 2007 and June 2008 and I assume that a far greater number of people would now count as long-term unemployed.

allweddol i helpu pobl i wella’u sgiliau i gael mynd i mewn i’r gweithle, neu i ehangu eu sylfaen sgiliau tra maent mewn gwaith er mwyn cadw’u swyddi. Eto, ar adeg fel hon, mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn cwtogi cyllideb y sector. Pan gyfarfuom â Fforwm yr wythnos diwethaf, fel grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru, fe’m syfrdanwyd o glywed bod nifer o golegau’n wynebu toriadau yn eu cyllidebau o fwy na 6 y cant. Sut mae disgwyl i golegau i ddal i allu parhau i ddarparu’r addysg o safon y maent yn ei darparu—os edrychwch ar adroddiadau Estyn—a hwythau’n wynebu toriadau o 6 y cant yn eu cyllidebau? Mae hyn yn digwydd ar adeg pan yw diweithdra’n codi’n gyflymach yng Nghymru nag mewn unrhyw ran arall o’r Deyrnas Unedig, ac ar hyn o bryd bron yn 7 y cant o’r boblogaeth sydd o oed gweithio. Cododd diweithdra tymor hir fwy na 10 y cant rhwng Mehefin 2007 a Mehefin 2008, a thybiaf y byddai llawer iawn mwy o bobl bellach yn cyfrif fel pobl ddi-waith dros gyfnod hir.

We must question the Assembly Government’s priorities on this front. If it is really committed to lifelong learning and to further education as one of the solutions to get us out of the economic mess that the Labour Party in Wales and at Westminster has got us into, then it has to ensure that further education is given adequate resources to do its job. Like many others in the Chamber, I have had individuals turning up at my surgeries who have been unable to access the training that they need or the support that they need when training, including for childcare. These are the people to whom we should be offering a helping hand into employment, yet because of your funding restrictions on further education establishments, they are constantly being put at the bottom of the pile. It is wrong, Minister, and you need to respond to this positively to ensure that the further education sector knows that it has your support.

Rhaid inni amau blaenoriaethau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn hyn. Os yw’n wir wedi ymrwymo i ddysgu gydol oes ac i addysg bellach fel un o’r atebion i’n cael ni allan o’r llanastr economaidd y mae’r Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru ac yn San Steffan wedi’n rhoi ni ynddo, yna rhaid iddi sicrhau y rhoddir adnoddau digonol i addysg bellach i wneud ei gwaith. Fel llawer un arall yn y Siambr hon, mae unigolion wedi dod ataf i’m cymorthfeydd sydd wedi methu cael yr hyfforddiant y mae arnynt ei angen na’r gefnogaeth y mae arnynt ei hangen wrth gael eu hyfforddi, gan gynnwys ar gyfer gofal plant. Dyma’r bobl y dylem fod yn cynnig help llaw iddynt i mewn i waith. Eto, oherwydd eich cyfyngiadau ariannu ar sefydliadau addysg bellach, cânt eu rhoi ar waelod y domen o hyd. Nid yw hynny’n iawn, Weinidog, ac mae angen ichi ymateb i hyn mewn ffordd bositif i sicrhau bod y sector addysg bellach yn gwybod eich bod yn ei gefnogi.

The fall-out is being felt by those who are at the bottom of the pile, which is the most worrying aspect of your cuts in the FE sector. It is the most vulnerable people who are not being given help. We have already heard about FE institutions in Wales having to

Teimlir yr effeithiau gan bobl sydd ar waelod y pentwr, a dyna’r agwedd fwyaf pryderus ar eich toriadau yn y sector addysg bellach. Y bobl sydd fwyaf agored i niwed yw’r rheini nad ydynt yn cael cymorth. Clywsom eisoes am sefydliadau addysg bellach yng Nghymru

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compete with institutions over the border in England. For example, in north-east Wales, Deeside College and the North East Wales Institute in Wrexham must compete with other FE and HE institutions over the border. However, they are managing to do so successfully despite the appalling settlements that you have given them. They must compete with institutions that get far more cash to invest in their colleges from the UK Government than you will ever provide.

sy’n gorfod cystadlu â sefydliadau dros y ffin yn Lloegr. Er enghraifft, yn y gogledd-ddwyrain mae Coleg Glannau Dyfrdwy ac Athrofa Addysg Uwch De Ddwyrain Cymru yn Wrecsam yn gorfod cystadlu â sefydliadau addysg bellach ac addysg uwch eraill dros y ffin. Fodd bynnag, maent yn llwyddo i wneud hynny er gwaethaf y setliadau ofnadwy yr ydych wedi’u rhoi iddynt. Rhaid iddynt gystadlu â sefydliadau sy’n cael llawer mwy o arian gan Lywodraeth y DU i’w fuddsoddi yn eu colegau nag y byddwch chi byth yn ei ddarparu.

The Welsh Affairs Select Committee published its report into cross-border higher and further education provision last month. It predicts the development of a downward spiral if Welsh higher education and further education continue to receive proportionately less core funding than English institutions. It concluded that it will result in a negative impact on the Welsh economy. If the committee can see it—which includes Labour and Plaid MPs—why can you not, Minister, and why will you not do something about it?

Cyhoeddodd y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig ei adroddiad ar ddarpariaeth addysg uwch ac addysg bellach drawsffiniol y mis diwethaf. Mae’n rhagweld dirywiad parhaus os bydd addysg uwch ac addysg bellach yng Nghymru’n parhau i gael cyllid craidd sy’n gyfrannol is nag a gaiff sefydliadau yn Lloegr. Daeth i’r casgliad y bydd yn cael effaith negyddol ar economi Cymru. Os yw’r pwyllgor—sy’n cynnwys ASau Llafur a Phlaid—yn gallu gweld hynny, pam na allwch chi, Weinidog, ei weld a pham na wnewch rywbeth yn ei gylch?

John Griffiths: Darren, are you aware that Deeside College is set to receive an increase of some 3.7 per cent in its funding for next year? It also has ambitious plans to merge with NEWI, the Welsh College of Horticulture and other further education institutions in north-east Wales, which will bring about the much better of resource that we all want to see.

John Griffiths: Darren, a ydych yn ymwybodol y bydd Coleg Glannau Dyfrdwy yn cael cynnydd o tua 3.7 y cant yn ei gyllid am y flwyddyn nesaf? Mae ganddo hefyd gynlluniau uchelgeisiol i uno â NEWI, Coleg Garddwriaeth Cymru a sefydliadau addysg bellach eraill yn y gogledd-ddwyrain, a fydd yn golygu defnyddio adnoddau’n well o lawer, fel yr ydym i gyd am ei weld.

Darren Millar: I welcome any additional cash to Deeside College or any other colleges on my patch; Coleg Llandrillo also received a small increase in its budget. I acknowledge that it is not all bad, but there are problems. Jenny Randerson pointed out very eloquently that there are single colleges in England that receive more funding than the total capital investment for the whole of Wales. You need to look at these sums again to ensure that the funding formula works in favour of the FE sector, rather than against it. I urge you to support our motion.

Darren Millar: Yr wyf yn croesawu unrhyw arian ychwanegol i Goleg Glannau Dyfrdwy neu unrhyw golegau eraill yn fy ardal; cafodd Coleg Llandrillo hefyd gynnydd bach yn ei gyllideb. Yr wyf yn cydnabod nad yw popeth yn ddrwg, ond mae gennym broblemau. Dywedodd Jenny Randerson yn huawdl iawn fod colegau unigol yn Lloegr yn cael mwy o arian na chyfanswm y buddsoddiad cyfalaf ar gyfer Cymru gyfan. Mae angen ichi edrych ar y ffigurau hyn eto i sicrhau bod y fformiwla gyllido’n gweithio o blaid y sector addysg bellach, yn hytrach nag yn ei erbyn. Pwysaf arnoch i gefnogi ein cynnig.

Jeff Cuthbert: I speak in support of amendment 2, tabled in the name of Carwyn

Jeff Cuthbert: Yr wyf yn siarad o blaid gwelliant 2, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Carwyn

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Jones. In the current climate of global recession, I do not think that anyone thinks that anyone else has it easy. All recipients of public funds have to tighten belts following the budget settlement that the Assembly received.

Jones. Yn yr hinsawdd economaidd sydd ohoni o ddirwasgiad byd-eang, ni chredaf fod neb yn credu bod pethau’n rhwydd i neb arall. Rhaid i bawb sy’n cael arian cyhoeddus fod yn ddarbodus yn dilyn y setliad yn y gyllideb a gafodd y Cynulliad.

However, I am glad to see that we have restated our belief that raising skills levels is a key priority. I am disappointed to learn of the 2.7 per cent reduction facing College Ystrad Mynach, of which I am a governor; however, I acknowledge that it has seen growth over previous years. I am pleased to see the harmonisation of funding for further education, sixth forms and adult learning. Moreover, the additional £87 million that has been provided over three years for post-16 learning, which includes the modern apprenticeships, is a substantial step forward.

Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn falch gweld ein bod wedi ailddatgan ein cred bod codi lefel sgiliau’n flaenoriaeth bwysig. Yr oeddwn yn siomedig clywed am y gostyngiad o 2.7 y cant sy’n wynebu Coleg Ystrad Mynach, sefydliad yr wyf yn llywodraethwr arno; yr wyf yn cydnabod, fodd bynnag, ei fod wedi gweld twf dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Yr wyf yn falch gweld cysoni’r gyllideb ar gyfer addysg bellach, colegau chweched dosbarth a dysgu i oedolion. Hefyd, mae’r £87 miliwn ychwanegol a ddarparwyd dros dair blynedd ar gyfer dysgu ôl-16, sy’n cynnwys y prentisiaethau modern, yn gam sylweddol ymlaen.

A further £20 million will be made available by the Welsh Assembly Government and European structural funds to protect apprenticeships during the economic downturn. The Assembly recently announced a further ProAct scheme, as has been mentioned, funded by the Welsh Assembly Government and structural funds to the sum of £48 million, which will allow businesses to upskill their workforce, making the most of the downturn to prepare for the upturn. FE colleges will also be able to access funds through the ProAct scheme and find apprenticeships by working with employers. We should remember that at the heart of ProAct are well thought-out training schemes. There should be significant opportunities for further education to work with employers in that regard.

Bydd £20 miliwn arall ar gael gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a chronfeydd strwythurol Ewrop i ddiogelu prentisiaethau yn ystod y dirywiad economaidd. Cyhoeddodd y Cynulliad fanylion yn ddiweddar am gynllun ProAct pellach, fel y dywedwyd, sy’n cael ei ariannu gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a chronfeydd strwythurol Ewrop ac sy’n werth £48 miliwn. Bydd yn galluogi busnesau i wella sgiliau eu gweithlu, gan wneud y gorau o’r dirywiad i baratoi ar gyfer yr adfywiad. Bydd colegau addysg bellach hefyd yn gallu cael arian drwy’r cynllun ProAct a dod o hyd i brentisiaethau drwy weithio gyda chyflogwyr. Dylem gofio bod cynlluniau hyfforddi sydd wedi’u cynllunio’n ofalus yn elfen hanfodol o ProAct. Dylai olygu bod cyfleoedd pwysig ar gael i addysg bellach i weithio gyda chyflogwyr yn hynny o beth.

The theme of collaboration is recurrent at the moment, with the continued development of the 14-19 learning pathways. The Proposed Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure will place a duty on local education authorities and colleges to collaborate, hopefully leading to the improved availability of funding, more effective co-ordination, the sharing of human and physical resources, and the elimination of duplication. It is crucial that the FE sector develops and improves links with employers

Mae thema cydweithredu’n un amlwg iawn ar hyn o bryd, gyda’r parhad yn natblygiad y llwybrau dysgu 14-19 oed. Bydd y Mesur Dysgu a Sgiliau (Cymru) Arfaethedig yn gosod dyletswydd ar awdurdodau addysg lleol a cholegau i gydweithredu, yn y gobaith y bydd yn golygu bod mwy o arian ar gael, cydlynu mwy effeithiol, rhannu adnoddau dynol a ffisegol, a dileu dyblygu. Mae’n hollbwysig i’r sector addysg bellach ddatblygu a wella cysylltiadau â chyflogwyr

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at this time. During previous recessions, the first budget to be cut in many organisations and firms was that for training and development. That must not happen this time around, or we will not be able to take advantage of opportunities when we come out of the recession.

ar yr adeg hon. Yn ystod dirwasgiadau’r gorffennol, y gyllideb gyntaf i gael ei thorri mewn llawer sefydliad a chwmni oedd yr un ar gyfer hyfforddiant a datblygu. Rhaid sicrhau na fydd hyn yn digwydd y tro hwn, neu ni fyddwn yn gallu manteisio ar gyfleoedd pan fydd y dirwasgiad ar ben.

4.20 p.m.

The Tories in Wales acknowledge that FE is important, especially in an economic downturn. I only wish that previous Tory Governments had felt the same. I dread to think what the infamous Secretary of State for Wales, John Redwood, would have done, the man who sent European funds back because he did not want them. We would have been without schemes like ProAct and ReAct—

Mae’r Torïaid yng Nghymru yn cydnabod bod addysg bellach yn bwysig, yn enwedig yn ystod dirywiad economaidd. Mae’n drueni na fyddai Llywodraethau Torïaidd y gorffennol wedi cytuno â hynny. Mae’n gas gennyf feddwl beth fyddai’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru cywilyddus hwnnw, John Redwood, wedi ei wneud. Dyna’r dyn a anfonodd arian Ewropeaidd yn ôl am nad oedd arno’i eisiau. Byddem wedi gorfod byw heb gynlluniau fel ProAct a ReAct—

Andrew R.T. Davies: Jeff, you look back time and again. We are currently in a crisis of the devolution era. As you well know, the Proposed Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure is unfunded. You were Chair of the committee that looked at the proposed Measure, and you agreed that. Do you not accept that a cut in funding to FE colleges is bound to have a detrimental impact on their capacity to provide places for students?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Jeff, yr ydych yn edrych yn ôl drwy’r amser. Yr ydym ar hyn o bryd mewn argyfwng yng nghyfnod datganoli. Fel y gwyddoch yn iawn, nid yw’r Mesur Dysgu a Sgiliau (Cymru) Arfaethedig wedi’i gyllido. Chi oedd Cadeirydd y pwyllgor a oedd yn edrych ar y Mesur arfaethedig, a chytunasoch â hynny. Onid ydych yn derbyn bod gostwng y cyllid ar gyfer colegau addysg bellach yn rhwym o gael effaith andwyol ar eu gallu i ddarparu lleoedd i fyfyrwyr?

Jeff Cuthbert: I realise that it is inconvenient to look back at the years of Tory Government—inconvenient for you, at any rate. You abolished the industrial training boards, and you abolished apprenticeships. You have done more than anyone to undermine training and development in this country for a generation or two, and I will not take lectures from you, given your previous performance. Schemes such as ProAct and ReAct would not exist if it were not for the action of the One Wales Government. The education maintenance allowance and the Assembly learning grant would not exist were it not for the intervention and action of Labour at Westminster and here in Cardiff. If you were in charge, I dread to think where we would be.

Jeff Cuthbert: Sylweddolaf ei bod yn anghyfleus edrych yn ôl ar flynyddoedd y Llywodraeth Doriaidd—yn anghyfleus i chi, o leiaf. Yr oeddech wedi diddymu’r byrddau hyfforddiant diwydiannol, a chi a ddiddymodd brentisiaethau. Yr ydych wedi gwneud mwy na neb i danseilio hyfforddiant a datblygiad yn y wlad hon am genhedlaeth neu ddwy, ac nid wyf yn barod i wrando arnoch chi’n traethu, o gofio’ch perfformiad yn y gorffennol. Ni fyddai cynlluniau megis ProAct a ReAct yn bodoli oni bai am weithredoedd Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un. Ni fyddai’r lwfans cynhaliaeth addysg yn bodoli oni bai am ymyriad a gweithredoedd Llafur yn San Steffan ac yma yng Nghaerdydd. Petaech chi wrth y llyw, mae’n gas gennyf feddwl sut y byddai arnom yn awr.

Jenny Randerson: I cannot let you get away Jenny Randerson: Ni allaf adael ichi ddianc

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with that. You know as well as I do that the Assembly learning grant was a Welsh Liberal Democrat initiative, a product of the partnership Government. However, that is beside the point.

ar hynny. Gwyddoch gystal â minnau mai cynllun y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol oedd grant dysgu’r Cynulliad, ffrwyth y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny nac yma nac acw.

The main point that I want to put to you is that I can see from your studiously written spiel that you have swallowed the Minister’s message 100 per cent. The issue is that FE is funded for growth only for the 16 to 18-year-olds. The other schemes may bring a little extra money to further education, but they may not. The key point is the basic strategy—

Y pwynt pwysig yr wyf am ei wneud yw fy mod yn gweld o’r truth a ysgrifennwyd mor ofalus gennych eich bod wedi llyncu pob gair o neges y Gweinidog. Y pwynt yw fod addysg bellach wedi cael arian ar gyfer twf ar gyfer pobl ifanc 16-18 oed yn unig. Efallai fod y cynlluniau eraill yn dod â rhywfaint o arian ychwanegol i addysg bellach, ond efallai nad ydynt ychwaith. Y prif bwynt yw’r strategaeth sylfaenol—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Could we have an intervention rather than a speech, please?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A gawn ni ymyriad yn hytrach nag araith, os gwelwch yn dda?

Jenny Randerson: The key is whether the Deputy Minister will fund further education for older students who need to reskill.

Jenny Randerson: Y pwynt yw a fydd y Dirprwy Weinidog yn cyllido addysg bellach ar gyfer myfyrwyr hŷn y mae arnynt angen dysgu sgiliau newydd.

Jeff Cuthbert: That intervention was so long that I have forgotten the point that you started with, to be frank. However, I do not accept your basic premise. The schemes that are in place for the benefit of learners have come about because of action taken overwhelmingly by Labour. Let us be clear about that: it was the report of Professor Teresa Rees that resulted in these initiatives.

Jeff Cuthbert: Yr oedd yr ymyriad hwnnw mor faith nes fy mod wedi anghofio’ch pwynt gwreiddiol, a dweud y gwir. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf yn derbyn eich gosodiad sylfaenol. Mae’r cynlluniau sydd wedi’u cyflwyno er lles dysgwyr wedi’u cyflwyno o ganlyniad i gamau a gymerwyd gan Lafur yn anad neb. Gadewch inni fod yn eglur ynghylch hynny: adroddiad yr Athro Teresa Rees a arweiniodd at y cynlluniau hyn.

Finally, Cameron’s Tories are still pushing for £2 billion-worth of cuts without stating where they would come from. I do not want to have to find out where those cuts will come from, and nor do the people of Wales.

Yn olaf, mae Torïaid Cameron yn parhau i wthio am doriadau gwerth £2 biliwn heb ddweud o ble y byddai’r arian yn dod. Nid wyf am wybod o ble y daw’r arian hwnnw, ac nid yw pobl Cymru am wybod ychwaith.

Jonathan Morgan: I always enjoy listening to Jeff Cuthbert’s speeches. He has merely confirmed in my mind, and in those of my colleagues, that we were absolutely right to table this motion. It is right that we look at the role of further education, celebrate what it has achieved, and look to what it might achieve in future. I agree with Jeff on one particular point, namely the ambition for greater cohesion in the role of further education in the Proposed Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure. In that context, I

Jonathan Morgan: Byddaf bob amser yn mwynhau gwrando ar areithiau Jeff Cuthbert. Mae wedi cadarnhau yn fy ngolwg i, ac yng ngolwg fy nghyd-Aelodau, ein bod yn llygad ein lle i gyflwyno’r cynnig hwn. Mae’n briodol inni edrych ar rôl addysg bellach, dathlu’r hyn a gyflawnwyd ganddi, ac edrych ymlaen at yr hyn y gallai ei gyflawni yn y dyfodol. Cytunaf â Jeff ar un pwynt yn benodol, sef yr uchelgais i gael mwy o gydlyniant yn rôl addysg bellach yn y Mesur Dysgu a Sgiliau (Cymru) Arfaethedig. Yn y

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want to make a few remarks. cyd-destun hwnnw, hoffwn wneud sylw neu ddau.

I am rather concerned with the health of the Deputy Minister for Skills. He is displaying the most worrying schizophrenic attitude towards further education.

Yr wyf yn poeni braidd am iechyd y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Sgiliau. Mae’n dangos yr agwedd sgitsoffrenig fwyaf ofnadwy tuag at addysg bellach.

Leanne Wood rose— Leanne Wood a gododd—

Jonathan Morgan: On the one hand, the Assembly Government says that the proposed Measure will support and develop FE, but, on the other, the Deputy Minister says that he is willing to cut the funding for further education. I find that quite astonishing.

Jonathan Morgan: Ar y naill law, dywed Llywodraeth y Cynulliad y bydd y Mesur arfaethedig yn cefnogi ac yn datblygu addysg bellach, ond ar y llaw arall dywed y Dirprwy Weinidog ei fod yn barod i leihau’r cyllid ar gyfer addysg bellach. Mae hynny’n rhyfeddol.

Leanne Wood: Will you give way? Leanne Wood: A wnewch chi ildio?

Jonathan Morgan: Not at this point. I find it astonishing that the Deputy Minister expects FE to do more for students, to deliver more courses, to revamp its buildings, to employ more staff, and to work better with schools, but at the same time is happy to cut its budget, with some colleges losing up to 6 per cent of their budgets. As a result, those colleges will be sacking staff and reducing courses, and yet the Deputy Minister is willing to sit there and ignore those working in the FE sector who are telling him that what he is doing is absolutely wrong for the people of Wales and that there will be a generation of young people in our FE colleges who will be adversely affected as a result. He seems to think that cutting the budget for further education is the right thing to do. We know that FE colleges have cut 150 jobs in this academic year and that FE colleges have warned you that some courses will be cut as a result, and we know that you are not willing to match the ambition of your colleagues in London who wish to rebuild every FE college in England, which Scotland is also looking to repeat. However, you have told us—and you will no doubt tell us this again this afternoon—that this Labour-Plaid Government is supportive of the FE sector. We have not seen that support and commitment, and nor have the people working in our FE colleges.

Jonathan Morgan: Na wnaf, ddim ar y funud. Mae’n rhyfeddol fod y Dirprwy Weinidog yn disgwyl i addysg bellach wneud mwy dros fyfyrwyr, cynnig mwy o gyrsiau, adnewyddu ei hadeiladau, cyflogi mwy o staff, a gweithio’n well gydag ysgolion, ond ar yr un pryd mae’n hapus i ostwng y gyllideb, a rhai colegau’n colli hyd at 6 y cant o’u cyllideb. O ganlyniad, bydd y colegau hynny’n diswyddo staff ac yn lleihau nifer eu cyrsiau, ac eto mae’r Dirprwy Weinidog yn barod i eistedd yma ac anwybyddu’r rheini sy’n gweithio yn y sector addysg bellach ac sy’n dweud wrtho fod yr hyn y mae’n ei wneud yn gwbl anghywir i bobl Cymru, ac y bydd cenhedlaeth o bobl ifanc yn ein colegau addysg bellach yn dioddef o ganlyniad. Ymddengys ei fod yn credu mai torri’r gyllideb ar gyfer addysg bellach yw’r peth cywir i’w wneud. Gwyddom fod colegau addysg bellach wedi cael gwared ar 150 o swyddi yn ystod y flwyddyn academaidd hon, a bod colegau addysg bellach wedi’ch rhybuddio y bydd rhai cyrsiau’n cael eu colli o ganlyniad. Gwyddom nad ydych yn barod i efelychu uchelgais eich cyd-Aelodau yn Llundain sy’n dymuno ailadeiladu pob coleg addysg bellach yn Lloegr, rhywbeth y mae’r Alban yn gobeithio’i wneud hefyd. Fodd bynnag, yr ydych wedi dweud wrthym—ac yr ydych yn siŵr o ddweud wrthym eto’r prynhawn yma—fod y Llywodraeth Lafur-Plaid hon yn cefnogi’r sector addysg bellach. Nid ydym wedi gweld y gefnogaeth honno na’r ymrwymiad hwnnw, ac nid yw’r bobl

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sy’n gweithio yn ein colegau addysg bellach ychwaith wedi’u gweld.

The Government says that it is doing everything possible to try to resolve the economic crisis through its economic summits, yet it is deliberately excluding the further and higher education sector from those summits. Those two sectors have a massive contribution to make to the economic success of our nation. Only yesterday, Rhodri Morgan told us that a thriving economy needed a thriving higher education sector. They know that they have the skills and the ability to help the Government and the companies of Wales to pick us up out of this recession, and yet they are being deliberately ignored by you and the Assembly Government. I firmly believe that they should be a part of the economic solution, of the package of measures that you should be putting in place to pull us out of this recession. Even your Westminster colleague, John Denham, said the following last Thursday.

Dywed y Llywodraeth ei bod yn gwneud popeth posibl i geisio datrys yr argyfwng economaidd drwy ei huwchgynadleddau economaidd, ond, er hynny, mae’n fwriadol yn gwahardd y sector addysg bellach ac addysg uwch o’r uwchgynadleddau hynny. Mae gan y ddau sector gyfraniad enfawr i’w wneud at lwyddiant economaidd ein cenedl. Ddoe ddiwethaf, dywedodd Rhodri Morgan wrthym fod angen sector addysg uwch ffyniannus ar economi ffyniannus. Maent yn gwybod bod ganddynt y sgiliau a’r gallu i gynorthwyo’r Llywodraeth a chwmnïau Cymru i’n codi o’r dirwasgiad hwn, ac eto yr ydych chi a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn mynd ati’n fwriadol i’w hanwybyddu. Credaf yn gryf y dylent fod yn rhan o’r ateb economaidd, yn rhan o’r pecyn o fesurau y dylech fod yn eu rhoi ar waith i’n codi o’r dirwasgiad hwn. Dywedodd eich cyd-Aelod yn San Steffan, John Denham, hyd yn oed, fel hyn ddydd Iau diwethaf:

‘We know that now is the time to invest in skills and training to prepare people for the upturn. This would be the very worst time to cut public spending, as some are proposing.’

Gwyddom mai dyma’r amser i fuddsoddi mewn sgiliau a hyfforddiant i baratoi pobl ar gyfer yr adfywiad. Dyma’r adeg waethaf un i dorri gwariant cyhoeddus, fel y mae rhai’n ei awgrymu.

He and his officials clearly did not know what you had been planning for the further education sector in Wales. We have a golden opportunity to make better use of the expertise of our colleges and of the facilities that they have, to ensure that they are working alongside our companies to help this country to come out of this recession. I do not think that you are being ambitious enough, or that you are valuing FE as it should be valued. I agree with John Denham’s comments in the House of Commons last week; it is a great pity that you, Deputy Minister, seem to disagree with him.

Mae’n amlwg nad oedd ef a’i swyddogion yn gwybod beth yr oeddech chi wedi bod yn ei gynllunio ar gyfer y sector addysg bellach yng Nghymru. Mae gennym gyfle euraidd i ddefnyddio arbenigedd ein colegau a’r cyfleusterau sydd ganddynt yn well, i sicrhau eu bod yn gweithio ochr yn ochr â’n cwmnïau i helpu codi’r wlad o’r dirwasgiad hwn. Nid wyf yn credu eich bod yn ddigon uchelgeisiol, nac yn gwerthfawrogi addysg bellach gymaint fel y mae’n haeddu cael ei gwerthfawrogi. Cytunaf â sylwadau John Denham yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin yr wythnos diwethaf; mae’n drueni mawr, Ddirprwy Weinidog, eich bod yn ymddangos yn anghytuno ag ef.

Leanne Wood: I raise a point of order. Deputy Presiding Officer, I would be grateful for your ruling on the unparliamentary language that Jonathan Morgan used in his last contribution, particularly his use of the term ‘schizophrenic’. My view is that it is

Leanne Wood: Yr wyf am godi pwynt o drefn. Ddirprwy Lywydd, hoffwn glywed eich dyfarniad ar yr iaith anseneddol a ddefnyddiwyd gan Jonathan Morgan yn ei gyfraniad diwethaf, yn enwedig y term ‘sgitsoffrenig’. Yn fy marn i, mae’n

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unacceptable to use that term in a negative way, particularly from the Conservatives’ spokesperson on health. Using it in that context risks further stigmatising people who have mental health problems, and we are all acutely aware of such stigma. Therefore, I ask that you request the Member to withdraw that remark.

annerbyniol defnyddio’r term hwn mewn ffordd negyddol, yn enwedig gan lefarydd y Ceidwadwyr ar iechyd. Drwy ei ddefnyddio yn y cyd-destun hwn mae perygl y bydd pobl sydd â phroblemau iechyd meddwl yn cael eu gwarthnodi ymhellach, ac yr ydym i gyd yn ymwybodol iawn o warthnod o’r fath. Felly, gofynnaf ichi ofyn i’r Aelod dynnu’r sylw hwnnw yn ôl.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I believe that Jonathan Morgan referred to a ‘schizophrenic attitude’, and I do not class that as non-parliamentary language. I now call Nerys Evans.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Credaf fod Jonathan Morgan wedi cyfeirio at ‘agwedd sgitsoffrenig’, ac nid wyf yn cyfrif hynny fel iaith anseneddol. Galwaf yn awr ar Nerys Evans.

Nerys Evans: Nid oes dwywaith y cafodd ein sefydliadau addysg bellach setliad gwael yn y gyllideb ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf. Bydd y toriadau sydd wedi’u cyhoeddi yn peri cwtogiadau a goblygiadau mawr i’r sector addysg bellach yng Nghymru. Mae hwn yn digwydd pan fydd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn rhoi pwyslais mawr ar hyrwyddo’r agenda dysgu 14 i 19 oed, ond rhaid inni hefyd gofio ac ystyried y cefndir i’r toriadau hyn.

Nerys Evans: There is no doubt that our further education institutions were given a poor settlement in the budget for the coming financial year. The cuts that have been announced will result in cutbacks and have grave repercussions for the FE sector in Wales. This is happening at a time when the Assembly Government is placing great emphasis on promoting the 14 to 19 learning agenda, but we must bear in mind and consider the background to these cuts.

Byddai’n anodd i neb yn y Cynulliad beidio â chydnabod pa mor ddifrifol yw setliad ariannol Llywodraeth y Cynulliad eleni. Mae wedi cael setliad gwael gan Lywodraeth Lafur Llundain, sydd wedi’i ddiffinio gan fformiwla ariannol gwael o Lundain ac wedi’i gyplysu gan amharodrwydd Llywodraeth Llundain i ddynodi symiau canlyniadol Barnett i ni am brosiectau a gwariant sy’n dilyn blaenoriaethau Llundain, sydd ymhell o’n blaenoriaethau ni yng Nghymru.

It would be difficult for anyone in the Assembly to deny how serious the Assembly Government’s financial settlement is this year. It has received a poor settlement from the Labour London Government, which is defined by a flawed funding formula from London, coupled with an unwillingness on behalf of the London Government to allocate Barnett consequentials to us for projects and expenditure following London priorities, which are far from being our priorities.

4.30 p.m.

Rhaid inni hefyd gydnabod cynnydd yn yr arian ar gyfer dysgu oedolion yn ein cymunedau a chyfeirio at yr arian ychwanegol y soniodd Jeff amdano ac mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi ei gyhoeddi ar gyfer cynllunio ailsgilio pobl sydd wedi colli eu gwaith. Mae £48 miliwn ar gael ar gyfer hyfforddi gweithwyr sydd wedi’u rhoi ar waith amser byr oherwydd amgylchiadau economaidd. Hefyd, mae £20 miliwn i gefnogi prentisiaethau drwy arian cydgyfeiriant. Er mor werthfawr ac

We must also recognise the increase in funding for adult learning in our communities and refer to the additional money that Jeff mentioned and which the Assembly Government has announced to plan for reskilling people who have lost their jobs. A sum of £48 million is available for training workers on short-time work because of the economic situation. There is also £20 million through convergence funding to support apprenticeships. Even though that money and new funding is necessary and valuable, it

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angenrheidiol yw’r arian hwn a’r cyllid newydd hwn, nid yw’n cyfiawnhau’r toriadau enfawr yng nghyllidebau sefydliadau addysg bellach. Gofynnaf i’r Llywodraeth edrych eto ar sut y mae’r toriadau hyn yn cyd-fynd â’i blaenoriaethau i ymestyn yr ystod o gyrsiau ôl-16 a’i blaenoriaethau i’r agenda 14-19.

does not justify huge cuts in budgets for further education institutions. I ask the Government to revisit the connection between these cuts and its priorities for extending the range of post-16 courses and its priorities for the 14-19 agenda.

Wrth gloi, cyfeiriaf yn ôl at sylwadau a wneuthum ar ddechrau’r tymor mewn dadl arall. Rhagwelais bryd hynny y byddai’r Ceidwadwyr yn mynnu cael mwy o arian i bethau eraill. Ers dechrau’r tymor ym mis Ionawr, yr ydym wedi clywed, o feinciau’r Ceidwadwyr, alwadau am fwy o arian i lywodraeth leol, yr economi, ysgolion, strategaeth camddefnyddio sylweddau, y sector gweithgynhyrchu, adeiladu ysbytai, tsar canser, dysgu oedolion—

In closing, I refer to comments which I made at the beginning of term in another debate. I foresaw then that the Conservatives would demand more money for different things. Since the beginning of the term in January, we have heard from the Conservative benches calls for more money for local government, the economy, schools, the substance misuse strategy, the manufacturing industry, hospital buildings, a cancer tsar, adult learning—

Andrew R.T. Davies: If you check the Record of Proceedings, you will see that not once have I called for more funding, but I have also lamented the fact that the Assembly Government has cut the budget. I have asked that a three-year budget programme be put in place so that FE colleges can have consistency in their funding, and I have asked for leadership. I appreciate the fact that we are in a difficult financial climate, but this is not a debate about throwing money at a problem; it is about identifying—

Andrew R.T. Davies: Os edrychwch ar Gofnod y Trafodion, gwelwch nad wyf wedi galw unwaith am fwy o gyllid. Yr wyf wedi gresynu at y ffaith fod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi lleihau’r gyllideb. Yr wyf wedi gofyn am roi rhaglen gyllido tair blynedd ar waith er mwyn i golegau addysg bellach allu cael eu cyllido mewn modd cyson, ac yr wyf wedi gofyn am arweinyddiaeth. Yr wyf yn gwerthfawrogi’r ffaith fod yr hinsawdd ariannol yn anodd, ond nid dadl yw hon am daflu arian at broblem; mae’n ymwneud â nodi—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. You are making an intervention, not a speech.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Yr ydych yn gwneud ymyriad, nid araith.

Andrew R.T. Davies: The Government has cut finance, and we want it addressed.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi lleihau’r cyllid, ac yr ydym am fynd i’r afael â hynny.

Nerys Evans: You are missing the point; I am listing the things for which you have all called for more money. I have been through the Record; you go through it as well. I might be young compared to the average age of Tory Assembly Members, but I am still old enough to remember the cuts that your party made in education.

Nerys Evans: Yr ydych yn colli’r pwynt; yr wyf yn rhestru’r pethau yr ydych i gyd wedi galw am fwy o arian ar eu cyfer. Yr wyf wedi mynd drwy’r Cofnod; ewch chi drwyddo hefyd. Efallai fy mod yn ifanc o’m cymharu ag oedran cyfartalog Aelodau Cynulliad Torïaidd, ond yr wyf yn ddigon hen o hyd i gofio’r toriadau a wnaeth eich plaid mewn addysg.

Yn ôl at y rhestr. Gofynnwyd am fwy o arian i ddysgu oedolion, gwasanaethau tân yn sir Benfro, twristiaeth, Ysgol Gyfun Gwynllyw, llyfrgelloedd, system atal llifogydd, treulwyr

Back to the list, They have called for more money for adult learning, fire services in Pembrokeshire, Ysgol Gyfun Gwynllyw, libraries, flood defences, anaerobic digesters,

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anaerobig ac yn y blaen. Mae hyn oll tra bo’ch arweinydd, David Cameron, wedi addo cwtogi £5 biliwn o wariant cyhoeddus. I gael unrhyw hygrededd, rhaid ichi naill ai esbonio beth a dorrwch neu ymbellhau o addewid Cameron i gwtogi arian.

and so on. This all happened while your leader, David Cameron, promised cuts of £5 billion in public expenditure. To maintain any credibility, you must either explain what you would cut or else distance yourselves from the Cameron pledge to cut spending.

Mark Isherwood: David Cameron has pledged no reduction in spending for education or for other areas of expenditure. Of course, that does not match the spin, does it? After all, if you think that education is expensive, try ignorance. Student numbers in Welsh further education colleges have fallen by more than 10 per cent over the last three years. At the same time, work-based learning programmes in and out of further education colleges have been decreasing.

Mark Isherwood: Nid yw David Cameron wedi addo dim gostyngiad gwariant ar gyfer addysg nac ar gyfer meysydd gwariant eraill. Wrth gwrs, nid yw hynny’n cyd-fynd â’r gogwydd, nac ydyw? Wedi’r cyfan, os credwch fod addysg yn ddrud, rhowch gynnig ar anwybodaeth. Mae niferoedd y myfyrwyr mewn colegau addysg bellach yng Nghymru wedi gostwng dros 10 y cant dros y tair blynedd diwethaf. Ar yr un pryd, mae rhaglenni dysgu’n seiliedig ar waith o fewn colegau addysg bellach a’r tu allan wedi bod yn lleihau.

We are in this mess because this Welsh Government has cut funding in real terms, and this year, colleges have been forced to cut core funding to meet underfunded pay increases, and have made cuts over several years for the same reason. In fact, funding for students is now almost a quarter less in real terms than 16 years ago. For me, coming back to this in 2009, it is like ‘Groundhog Day’, because exactly the same concerns were being raised by further education colleges when I last spoke on this issue in 2005 as the then Welsh Conservative education spokesperson. Even worse now, however, approximately a quarter of further education college funding comes from other sources, which are now also under threat as college partners in the business sector are hit by the recession.

Yr ydym yn y llanast hwn oherwydd bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi lleihau’r cyllid mewn termau real, ac eleni mae colegau wedi eu gorfodi i leihau ariannu craidd i ateb gofynion codiadau cyflog sydd wedi eu tangyllido, ac wedi gwneud toriadau dros nifer o flynyddoedd am yr un rheswm. Mewn gwirionedd, mae ariannu ar gyfer myfyrwyr yn awr bron chwarter yn llai mewn termau real nag ydoedd 16 mlynedd yn ôl. I mi, i ddychwelyd at hyn yn 2009, mae’n debyg i ‘Groundhog Day’, oherwydd yr oedd yr un gofidiau’n union yn cael eu codi gan golegau addysg bellach pan siaradais ddiwethaf ar y mater hwn yn 2005 fel llefarydd addysg y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar y pryd. Hyd yn oed yn waeth yn awr, fodd bynnag, mae tua chwarter cyllid colegau addysg bellach yn dod o ffynonellau eraill, sydd hefyd dan fygythiad yn awr wrth i bartneriaid colegau yn y sector busnes gael eu taro gan y dirwasgiad.

‘The Mismanagement of Talent’ report by Phil Brown of Cardiff University and Anthony Hesketh of Lancaster University identified a strong case for placing more weight on the further education sector. That report was published four years ago. Wales must have parity of esteem, academic freedom and equality of opportunity to ensure that vocational, technical and academic education and training have equal status based on the needs of individual

Yn yr adroddiad ‘Camreoli Talent’ gan Phil Brown o Brifysgol Caerdydd ac Anthony Hesketh o Brifysgol Caerhirfryn, nodwyd achos cryf dros roi mwy o bwys ar y sector addysg bellach. Cyhoeddwyd yr adroddiad hwnnw bedair blynedd yn ôl. Rhaid i Gymru gael parch cydradd, rhyddid academaidd a chyfle cyfartal i sicrhau bod gan addysg a hyfforddiant galwedigaethol, technegol ac academaidd statws cyfartal ar sail anghenion dysgwyr unigol a’r farchnad waith.

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learners and the employment marketplace.

We congratulate the learners and teachers of Wales on their achievements, and we note that they would not have been possible without their hard work and the hard work of the trainers and leaders in our schools and further education institutions.

Yr ydym yn llongyfarch dysgwyr ac athrawon Cymru ar eu cyflawniadau, a sylwn na fyddent wedi bod yn bosibl heb eu gwaith caled hwy a gwaith caled yr hyfforddwyr a’r arweinwyr yn ein hysgolion a’n sefydliadau addysg bellach.

These achievements are all the more creditable given the difficult education environments created by Labour-led Welsh Governments, guided by utopian visions of a shiny, state-controlled, virtual-reality world in which success is measured according to the amount of taxpayers’ money squandered rather than on the amount of resources in schools and colleges in the front line of education. The shocking truth is that, after 10 years of a spend-more-deliver-less attitude by Labour-led Governments in Cardiff, the people of Wales now have poorer basic skills and lower prosperity than the people of any other nation or region in the United Kingdom.

Mae’r cyflawniadau hyn yn fwy cymeradwy fyth ac ystyried yr amgylcheddau addysgol anodd a grëwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru dan arweiniad Llafur, a oedd yn cael ei harwain gan weledigaethau iwtopaidd o fyd gloyw, rhithwir dan reolaeth y wladwriaeth, lle mesurir llwyddiant yn ôl faint o arian y trethdalwyr sy’n cael ei afradu yn hytrach na faint o adnoddau sydd mewn ysgolion a cholegau yn rheng flaen addysg. Y gwirionedd ysgytwol, wedi 10 mlynedd o ddull gwario mwy a chyflawni llai gan Lywodraethau dan arweiniad Llafur yng Nghaerdydd, yw bod gan y Cymry yn awr sgiliau sylfaenol gwaeth a ffyniant is na phobl unrhyw genedl neu ranbarth arall yn y Deyrnas Unedig.

Jeff Cuthbert: Far be it from me to avoid your utopia, whatever it may be, but if I was a college principal, of course, I would always be arguing for more money. However, if you think that the budget for further education ought to be increased, are you, as a political representative, going to tell us where it should come from?

Jeff Cuthbert: Nid fy lle i yw osgoi eich iwtopia, beth bynnag y bo, ond petawn i’n bennaeth coleg, wrth gwrs, byddwn yn dadlau’n wastadol am ragor o arian. Fodd bynnag, os credwch y dylid cynyddu’r gyllideb ar gyfer addysg bellach, a ydych chi, fel cynrychiolydd gwleidyddol, yn mynd i ddweud wrthym o ble y dylai ddod?

Mark Isherwood: Our next budget most certainly will tell you where it will come from. In fact, in Welsh further education colleges, the widening participation agenda that was introduced by the Conservatives has come to a stop. Staff now face the threat of further redundancies. Compared with England and Scotland, Wales has a higher proportion of adults of working age without qualifications. Over 55,000 young people who have left school in Wales under Labour—and now Plaid Cymru—are jobless, are not in training or education and are hidden from the official unemployment figures. In fact, Wales has a higher proportion of 19 to 24-year-olds in this category than any other UK nation. As the lost children of Wales report identified, as many as half the children in some Welsh schools were leaving education

Mark Isherwood: Bydd ein cyllideb nesaf, yn sicr ddigon, yn dweud wrthych o ble y daw. Mewn gwirionedd, yng ngholegau addysg bellach Cymru, mae’r agenda ehangu cyfranogiad, a gyflwynwyd gan y Ceidwadwyr, wedi dod i ben. Mae staff yn awr yn wynebu bygythiad mwy o golli swyddi. O’n cymharu â Lloegr a’r Alban, mae gan Gymru ganran uwch o oedolion o oed gweithio sydd heb gymwysterau. Mae dros 55,000 o bobl ifanc sydd wedi gadael yr ysgol yng Nghymru o dan Lafur—a Phlaid Cymru yn awr—yn ddi-waith, heb fod mewn hyfforddiant nac addysg ac ynghudd rhag y ffigurau diweithdra swyddogol. Mewn gwirionedd, mae gan Gymru gyfran uwch o bobl 19 i 24 oed yn y categori hwn nag unrhyw genedl arall yn y DU. Fel y nododd yr adroddiad ar blant coll Cymru, yr oedd

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disappointed and ill-prepared for employment. The report stated that schools inadvertently trained them in absenteeism, as they devised ways to escape what they saw as a raw deal.

cynifer â hanner y plant yn rhai o ysgolion Cymru yn gadael addysg yn siomedig a heb baratoi’n effeithiol ar gyfer cyflogaeth. Dywedai’r adroddiad fod yr ysgolion, yn anfwriadol, yn eu hyfforddi mewn absenolrwydd wrth iddynt ddyfeisio ffyrdd i ddianc rhag yr hyn a ystyrient yn sefyllfa o gael cam.

This is a betrayal of a generation. In responding to regret about further education cuts, this Welsh Government congratulated itself on announcing new funding for apprenticeships and ProAct, when it knows full well that only 5 per cent of this has gone directly to further education colleges. Further education colleges are having to cut post-19 education and training in order to fill the funding gap for 14 to 19-year-olds. Post-14 education and training must provide real choice and responsiveness to local economic needs. To achieve this, we must establish an effective regional structure within a strong national framework. We must liberate and empower, by letting go from the centre and by removing the culture of covert ministerial diktat. Our further education colleges are incorporated, self-governing bodies, and the role of Government should be informed facilitation, not direction.

Bradychu cenhedlaeth yw hyn. Wrth ymateb i resynu am doriadau mewn addysg bellach, ei llongyfarch ei hun a wnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru bresennol am roi datganiad am arian newydd ar gyfer prentisiaethau a ProAct, er ei bod yn gwybod yn burion mai 5 y cant yn unig o hyn sydd wedi mynd i golegau addysg bellach. Rhaid i golegau addysg bellach gwtogi addysg a hyfforddiant ôl-19 er mwyn llenwi’r bwlch ariannu ar gyfer disgyblion a myfyrwyr 14 i 19 oed. Rhaid i addysg a hyfforddiant ôl-14 roi gwir ddewis ac ymatebolrwydd i anghenion economaidd lleol. I gyflawni hynny, rhaid inni sefydlu strwythur rhanbarthol effeithiol o fewn fframwaith cenedlaethol cadarn. Rhaid inni ryddhau a grymuso, drwy ollwng o’r canol a dileu’r diwylliant dictad gweinidogaethol cudd. Cyrff hunanlywodraethol wedi’u hymgorffori yw ein colegau addysg bellach, a dylai’r Llywodraeth fod â rôl o hyrwyddo mewn modd hyddysg, nid cyfarwyddo.

We start our education by learning a little about a lot but progressively learn more and more about less and less and about how to think, not what. It seems that this Welsh Government, it predecessors, and its successive education Ministers have been the exception to this rule.

Byddwn yn dechrau ein haddysg drwy ddysgu ychydig am lawer, ond yn gynyddol byddwn yn dysgu mwy a mwy am lai a llai, ac am sut i feddwl, nid am beth i feddwl. Ymddengys fod Llywodraeth Cymru bresennol, ei rhagflaenydd a’i Gweinidogion addysg olynol wedi bod yn eithriad i’r rheol hon.

Peter Black: I listened carefully to Nerys Evans’s contribution. It is interesting that, whenever we have a debate about a particular subject such as education, we always get the same old refrain from Plaid Cymru about the dreadful settlement that we have had or about the awful Barnett formula. I totally agree with them but, unfortunately, we have a limited budget within which we have to work. It is all very well to say that we have not been given the money to deliver our priorities but we have a huge amount of money and the question we have to ask is: what are your priorities? Clearly, those

Peter Black: Gwrandewais yn ofalus ar gyfraniad Nerys Evans. Pryd bynnag y cawn ddadl am bwnc penodol fel addysg, mae’n ddiddorol ein bod bob amser yn cael yr hen fyrdwn gan Blaid Cymru ynghylch y setliad ofnadwy yr ydym wedi’i gael neu ynghylch y fformiwla Barnett ddychrynllyd. Cytunaf â hwy’n llwyr, ond, yn anffodus, cyllideb gyfyngedig yw’r un y mae’n rhaid inni weithio o’i mewn. Digon hawdd dweud na roddwyd yr arian inni i gyflawni ein blaenoriaethau, ond mae gennym swm enfawr o arian, a’r cwestiwn y mae’n rhaid inni ei ofyn yw: beth yw eich blaenoriaethau

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priorities are not education, nor skills, nor helping people back to work. That is evidenced by what we have in front of us, which is a real-term cut in further education funding, and by the impact that that is having on colleges all over Wales.

chi? Mae’n amlwg nad addysg na sgiliau na helpu pobl i ddychwelyd i’r gwaith yw’r blaenoriaethau hynny. Dangosir hynny gan yr hyn sydd o’n blaenau, sef gostyngiad mewn termau real yng nghyllid addysg bellach, a chan yr effaith y mae hynny’n ei chael ar golegau ledled Cymru.

This is a timely debate and one in which I am very pleased to be able to speak because, over the last few weeks, I have received many representations from further education colleges within my region of South Wales West. There is a huge amount of concern among FE providers about the financial restraints that they are facing as a direct result of the swingeing cuts that this Government has visited upon them. Swansea College is facing an unprecedented cut in core funding of 7.5 per cent. Neath Port Talbot College faces an equally serious cut of 5.5 per cent while Coleg Sir Gâr faces a cut of 6.92 per cent. Meanwhile, the Department for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills has received a 5.5 per cent rise. Where is that money received by the education department going, and why are further education colleges not being given their share of the money?

Mae hon yn ddadl amserol ac yn un yr wyf yn falch gallu siarad ynddi, oherwydd dros yr wythnosau diwethaf yr wyf wedi cael nifer o sylwadau gan golegau addysg bellach yn fy rhanbarth yng Ngorllewin De Cymru. Mae pryder enfawr ymhlith darparwyr addysg bellach am y cyfyngiadau ariannol sy’n eu hwynebu o ganlyniad uniongyrchol i’r toriadau llym a orfodwyd arnynt gan y Llywodraeth hon. Mae Coleg Abertawe yn wynebu toriad digynsail o 7.5 y cant mewn ariannu craidd. Mae Coleg Castell-nedd Port Talbot yn wynebu toriad lawn mor ddifrifol o 5.5 y cant, a Coleg Sir Gâr yn wynebu toriad o 6.92 y cant. Yn y cyfamser, mae’r Adran Plant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau wedi cael cynnydd o 5.5 y cant. I ble y mae’r arian hwnnw a gafwyd gan yr adran addysg yn mynd, a pham nad yw colegau addysg bellach yn cael eu cyfran o’r arian?

4.40 p.m.

Jenny Randerson referred to John Denham’s remarks and the extra money that is going into further education in England, specifically because of the recession that we face. It is equally necessary for this Government to respond in similar terms in Wales, if we are to help further education colleges to train up those people who need to be retrained if they are to find new employment.

Cyfeiriodd Jenny Randerson at sylwadau John Denham a’r arian ychwanegol sy’n mynd i addysg bellach yn Lloegr, yn benodol oherwydd y dirwasgiad yr ydym yn ei wynebu. Mae hi lawn mor angenrheidiol i’r Llywodraeth hon ymateb mewn ffordd debyg yng Nghymru, os ydym i helpu colegau addysg bellach i hyfforddi’r bobl hynny y mae angen eu hailhyfforddi os ydynt i ddod o hyd i waith newydd.

Everyone accepts that financial times are tight, but in the case of further education, the settlement must be viewed in an overall context. First, the pay parity deal of last year has put extra pressures on further education, which is something that further education has understood and shown it is willing to deal with in a fair way. It is ironic that this Government, which claims to support the union and socialist credentials, found it very difficult to help a deal to be reached as it tightened the purse strings as these

Mae pawb yn derbyn ei fod yn gyfnod ariannol tynn, ond yn achos addysg bellach rhaid ystyried y setliad mewn cyd-destun cyffredinol. Yn gyntaf, mae cytundeb y llynedd o ran cydraddoldeb cyflog wedi rhoi pwysau ychwanegol ar addysg bellach, ac mae hynny’n rhywbeth y mae addysg bellach wedi’i ddeall ac wedi dangos ei fod yn barod i ddelio ag ef mewn ffordd deg. Mae’n eironig fod y Llywodraeth hon, sy’n honni ei bod yn cefnogi’r elfen undebol a sosialaidd, wedi cael anhawster mawr i helpu cyrraedd

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negotiations were taking place. Just to maintain pay parity, further education would have to dish out almost £7 million extra in 2008-09 to fund an inflationary rise—that is if inflation remains low.

cytundeb wrth iddi dynhau llinynnau’r pwrs tra oedd y trafodaethau’n mynd rhagddynt. Er mwyn cynnal cydraddoldeb cyflog yn unig, byddai’n rhaid i addysg bellach rannu bron i £7 miliwn yn ychwanegol yn 2008-09 i ariannu codiad chwyddiant—hynny yw, os bydd chwyddiant yn parhau’n isel.

It beggars belief that, in a society where everyone accepts that we need to upskill the workforce, deal with the recession through diversification and increase provision for on-the-job training, we are slashing budgets for the institutions that are best placed to deal with these things. I wonder whether the Government will perhaps accept the view of the Welsh Local Government Association, which said that, if these cuts go ahead—and remember that this will hit sixth forms as well—authorities will have to make the choice between cuts elsewhere and telling some of the most vulnerable young people that they cannot receive their full entitlement. Taken together with the already-difficult local government settlement, this means that further education, which is already a cinderella service in funding terms, will be left facing what can only be described as a crisis.

Mewn cymdeithas lle mae pawb yn derbyn bod angen inni ddiweddaru sgiliau’r gweithlu, delio â’r dirwasgiad drwy arallgyfeirio a chynyddu darpariaethau hyfforddiant yn y gweithle, mae’n rhyfeddol ein bod yn lleihau cyllidebau’r cyrff sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i ddelio â’r pethau hyn. Ys gwn i a fydd y Llywodraeth efallai’n derbyn barn Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, a ddywedodd, petai’r toriadau hyn yn mynd rhagddynt—a chofiwch y bydd hyn yn taro dosbarthiadau chwech hefyd—y bydd yn rhaid i awdurdodau ddewis gwneud y toriadau rywle arall a dweud wrth rai o’r bobl ifanc sydd fwyaf agored i niwed na allant gael eu hawliau llawn. O gymryd hyn ynghyd â’r setliad llywodraeth leol, sy’n anodd yn barod, mae’n golygu y bydd addysg bellach, sydd eisoes yn wasanaeth sinderela o ran ariannu, yn cael ei gadael i wynebu’r hyn na ellir ond ei ddisgrifio fel argyfwng.

I wish to say a few words about the Government amendments. The Welsh Liberal Democrats are not prepared to support amendment 1. The amendment refers to the ‘budgetary challenges facing Further Education’. If further education faces budgetary challenges, it is because this Government has forced them upon it. It has not provided the money, and that is the challenge that further education faces. The Government is deliberately penalising further education because of the sector’s willingness to adapt to tough times in the past. One example is the way in which it dealt effectively with the issue of pay parity. Further education has gone a long way in meeting tight circumstances in the past, and this Government seems to believe that it can continually squeeze the sector with the expectation that it will continue to cope regardless. Of course, further education will continue to cope, but in the end something will have to give, and the people who are going to suffer are the people who benefit from the educational and training

Hoffwn ddweud ychydig eiriau am welliannau’r Llywodraeth. Nid yw Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn fodlon cefnogi gwelliant 1. Mae’r gwelliant yn cyfeirio at ‘yr heriau cyllidebol sy’n wynebu Addysg Bellach’. Os yw addysg bellach yn wynebu her gyllidebol, mae hynny oherwydd bod y Llywodraeth hon wedi gorfodi addysg bellach i dderbyn yr her. Nid yw wedi darparu’r arian, a dyna’r her y mae addysg bellach yn ei hwynebu. Mae’r Llywodraeth, o fwriad, yn cosbi addysg bellach oherwydd bod y sector wedi bod yn fodlon ymaddasu i adegau anodd yn y gorffennol. Un enghraifft yw’r ffordd y deliodd yn effeithiol â mater cydraddoldeb cyflog. Mae addysg bellach wedi mynd ymhell i ateb gofynion amgylchiadau llym yn y gorffennol, ac mae’r Llywodraeth hon, i bob golwg, yn credu y gall barhau i wasgu’r sector gan ddisgwyl y bydd yn dal i ymdopi er gwaethaf popeth. Wrth gwrs, bydd addysg bellach yn parhau i ymdopi, ond yn y pen draw bydd yn rhaid i rywbeth ildio, a’r bobl a fydd yn dioddef yw’r rheini sy’n elwa o’r budd y mae

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opportunities that further education offers. cyfleoedd addysg a hyfforddiant yn ei gynnig.

We are prepared to cautiously support amendment 2. However, we are concerned about the bureaucracy that surrounds the ProAct scheme and the fact that it needs to be fully rolled out. I expect that the Government will be able to do that as part of this. I have run out of time, but I hope that the Government will be able to respond to our concerns and deal with the budgetary crisis that further education faces by providing some additional resource so that it at least will not face the sort of cuts it faces today.

Yr ydym yn fodlon cefnogi gwelliant 2 gyda gofal. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn pryderu am y fiwrocratiaeth sy’n amgylchynu’r cynllun ProAct a’r ffaith fod angen iddo gael ei gyflwyno’n llawn. Disgwyliaf y bydd y Llywodraeth yn gallu gwneud hynny fel rhan o hyn. Mae fy amser ar ben, ond gobeithio y bydd y Llywodraeth yn gallu ymateb i’n pryderon a delio â’r argyfwng cyllidebol sy’n wynebu addysg bellach drwy ddarparu rhywfaint o adnoddau ychwanegol fel na fydd yn rhaid, o leiaf, i addysg bellach wynebu’r math o doriadau y mae’n eu hwynebu heddiw.

The Deputy Minister for Skills (John Griffiths): First, I wish to thank the Conservatives for tabling this important motion. There are concerns with regard to the further education funding settlement, as we all understand, and it is right during this economic downturn that these issues are aired. I thank all Members who have taken part in the debate and made many significant points.

Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Sgiliau (John Griffiths): Yn gyntaf, dymunaf ddiolch i’r Ceidwadwyr am gyflwyno’r cynnig pwysig hwn. Mae yna bryderon ynglŷn â setliad cyllido addysg bellach, fel yr ydym i gyd yn deall, ac y mae’n iawn yn y dirywiad economaidd hwn i’r materion hyn gael eu gwyntyllu. Diolch i’r holl Aelodau sydd wedi cymryd rhan yn y ddadl ac wedi gwneud nifer o bwyntiau sylweddol.

Obviously, the context for the debate is a very tight public spending situation. Some valid points have been made about Conservative plans to cut public spending. Given that the Conservatives tabled this motion, there are many questions for them to answer as to how spending could be maintained on training in further education and elsewhere in light of the scale of the public spending cuts they envisage.

Cyd-destun y ddadl, yn amlwg, yw sefyllfa dynn iawn o ran gwariant cyhoeddus. Mae rhai pwyntiau dilys wedi’u gwneud ynghylch cynlluniau’r Ceidwadwyr i leihau gwariant cyhoeddus. O gofio mai’r Ceidwadwyr a gyflwynodd y cynnig hwn, mae nifer o gwestiynau iddynt hwy eu hateb ynglŷn â’r ffordd y gellid cynnal gwariant ar hyfforddiant mewn addysg bellach a mannau eraill o gofio maint y toriadau mewn gwariant cyhoeddus a ragwelir ganddynt.

The Leader of the Opposition (Nick Bourne): I am grateful to John for giving way on this point. I have a letter from the First Minister telling me that he cannot project what the effect will be of the £5 billion worth of cuts that Gordon Brown is proposing in the financial year 2010-11. These are not cuts; it is forward spending where we are not spending as much. If you cannot project what your own cuts will impose, why on earth do you keep focusing on ours?

Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Nick Bourne): Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i John am ildio ar y pwynt hwn. Mae gennyf lythyr oddi wrth y Prif Weinidog sy’n dweud wrthyf na all ragweld beth fydd effaith y toriadau gwerth £5 biliwn y mae Gordon Brown yn eu cynnig yn y flwyddyn ariannol 2010-11. Nid toriadau yw’r rhain, ond yn hytrach blaenwariant lle nad ydym yn gwario cymaint. Oni allwch ragweld beth fydd eich toriadau eich hun yn arwain ato, pam ar y ddaear yr ydych yn dal i ganolbwyntio ar ein toriadau ni?

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John Griffiths: My point is that the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom and here portrays itself as the champion of public spending cuts and efficiency. That is the type of policy that you tend to put forward and the image that you want to portray. Therefore, there are difficult questions for you to ask in terms of the valid maintenance of crucial public spending in this area of further education and across the board.

John Griffiths: Fy mhwynt i yw bod y Blaid Geidwadol yn y Deyrnas Unedig ac yma yn ei phortreadu ei hun fel plaid sy’n hyrwyddo gostyngiadau mewn gwariant cyhoeddus ac effeithlonrwydd. Dyna’r math o bolisi yr ydych yn tueddu i’w gyflwyno a’r ddelwedd yr ydych am ei phortreadu. Felly, mae cwestiynau anodd ichi eu gofyn o ran yr angen i gynnal y gwariant cyhoeddus hollbwysig ym maes addysg bellach ac yn gyffredinol.

In any event, we currently have a tight public spending situation. It is in that context that we see this general 1 per cent cut for further education in Wales, which amounts to some £3 million, as has been said. That has to be put against an extra £20 million for apprenticeships and an extra £48 million for ProAct. The figure given earlier by more than one Conservative speaker of 5 per cent in terms of further education access around apprenticeships is not correct. The figure for work-based learning contracts in terms of further education access is, in fact, 20 per cent. I am confident that we will ensure that further education colleges, if they show flexibility and commitment, access that £20 million for apprenticeships and £48 million for ProAct, together with the extra money for ReAct, in a way that will help their financial situation and the skills needs of Wales.

Beth bynnag, mae gennym sefyllfa gwariant cyhoeddus dynn ar hyn o bryd. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw y gwelwn y toriad cyffredinol hwn o 1 y cant ar gyfer addysg bellach yng Nghymru, sef oddeutu £3 miliwn, fel y dywedwyd. Rhaid ystyried hwnnw yng nghyd-destun £20 miliwn yn ychwanegol ar gyfer prentisiaethau a £48 miliwn yn ychwanegol ar gyfer ProAct. Mae’r ffigur a roddwyd gynnau gan fwy nag un siaradwr Ceidwadol, sef 5 y cant ar gyfer mynediad i addysg bellach ar ffurf prentisiaethau, yn anghywir. Y ffigur ar gyfer contractau dysgu’n seiliedig ar waith o ran gallu cael addysg bellach, mewn gwirionedd, yw 20 y cant. Yr wyf yn hyderus y byddwn yn sicrhau bod colegau addysg bellach, os dangosant hyblygrwydd ac ymrwymiad, yn gallu cael yr £20 miliwn hwnnw ar gyfer prentisiaethau a’r £48 miliwn ar gyfer ProAct, ynghyd â’r arian ychwanegol ar gyfer ReAct mewn ffordd a fydd yn cynorthwyo’u sefyllfa ariannol ac anghenion sgiliau Cymru.

Christine Chapman: You will be aware of my concerns surrounding the settlement for Rhondda Cynon Taf, and particularly Coleg Morgannwg. Today, I have received a letter from the college principal outlining the difficulties. What discussions have you had with Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council and Coleg Morgannwg on this; and particularly on how the colleges can benefit from the £68 million ProAct scheme? I understand that Gordon Brown has praised the ProAct scheme in Wales and I know that he is looking at introducing this in England.

Christine Chapman: Gwyddoch fy mod yn poeni am y setliad ar gyfer Rhondda Cynon Taf, ac yn enwedig ar gyfer Coleg Morgannwg. Heddiw, yr wyf wedi cael llythyr gan bennaeth y coleg yn sôn am yr anawsterau. Pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael gyda Chyngor Bwrdeistref Rhondda Cynon Taf a Choleg Morgannwg ynghylch hyn, ac yn benodol ynghylch y ffordd y gall y colegau elwa o’r cynllun ProAct sy’n werth £68 miliwn? Deallaf fod Gordon Brown wedi canmol y cynllun ProAct yng Nghymru, a gwn ei fod yn ystyried ei gyflwyno yn Lloegr.

John Griffiths: I understand that Gordon Brown mentioned during Prime Minister’s questions today that the Wales ProAct scheme is an interesting and valuable model

John Griffiths: Deallaf fod Gordon Brown wedi crybwyll, yn ystod y cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Prydain heddiw, fod cynllun ProAct Cymru yn fodel diddorol a

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that will be studied in terms of its application across the United Kingdom. It is very encouraging given that we developed that in Wales and that it has that perceived value.

gwerthfawr ac y caiff ei astudio i weld a fyddai modd ei roi ar waith ledled y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’n galonogol iawn o gofio inni ddatblygu’r cynllun hwnnw yng Nghymru a bod pobl yn gweld ei werth.

I engaged, either by meeting or by video conference, with all of the further education college principals just yesterday to discuss this latest further education funding settlement. Among those represented was Coleg Morgannwg. We will continue the dialogue and partnership working in taking this forward. There will be a number of meetings at the colleges, including meetings to address how ProAct and the new apprenticeship moneys can be accessed and properly used. It is also true, Christine, that there is a 40 per cent deprivation uplift in the further education funding formula, which reflects the Welsh Assembly Government’s commitment to social justice and those colleges serving the most deprived areas.

Cysylltais â phennaeth pob coleg addysg bellach ddoe, naill ai drwy gyfarfod â hwy neu drwy gyfrwng cynhadledd fideo, i drafod y setliad cyllido diweddaraf i addysg bellach. Yr oedd Coleg Morgannwg ymhlith y rhai a gynrychiolwyd. Byddwn yn parhau’r ddeialog a’r gwaith partneriaeth wrth fwrw ymlaen â hyn. Cynhelir nifer o gyfarfodydd yn y colegau, gan gynnwys cyfarfodydd i drafod sut i allu cael arian ProAct a’r arian newydd ar gyfer prentisiaethau, a sut i ddefnyddio’r arian hwnnw mewn ffordd briodol. Mae hefyd yn wir, Christine, fod fformiwla cyllido addysg bellach yn cynnwys cynnydd o 40 y cant ar gyfer ardaloedd o amddifadedd, ac mae hynny’n adlewyrchu ymrwymiad Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i gyfiawnder cymdeithasol ac i’r colegau hynny sy’n gwasanaethu’r ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig.

As ever, many points were raised in this debate, but as time is limited I will not be able to deal with all of them. It is true that further education colleges are independent corporations that have funding from a variety of sources, including full cost recovery, the good relationships built with local employers, and partnerships with higher education. There are various avenues open to further education in terms of bringing in income. It is not all about what the public sector provides. We have brought forward £6.3 million in capital into the academic year to make sure that the downturn is addressed in terms of providing construction industry opportunities, but also to enable better capital spend on the refurbishment and small works that further education has planned.

Fel arfer, codwyd nifer o bwyntiau yn y ddadl hon, ond gan fod amser yn brin ni fyddaf yn gallu ymdrin â hwy i gyd. Mae’n wir fod colegau addysg bellach yn gorfforaethau annibynnol ac yn cael arian o amrywiol ffynonellau, gan gynnwys adennill costau llawn, eu perthynas dda â chyflogwyr lleol, a’r partneriaethau gydag addysg uwch. Mae amryw o lwybrau ar agor i addysg bellach o ran denu incwm. Nid yr hyn y mae’r sector cyhoeddus yn ei ddarparu yw’r darlun cyfan. Yr ydym wedi dwyn cyfalaf gwerth £6.3 miliwn ymlaen i’r flwyddyn academaidd er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn mynd i’r afael â’r dirywiad drwy greu cyfleoedd i’r diwydiant adeiladu, ond hefyd er mwyn galluogi addysg bellach i wario mwy o gyfalaf ar ei chynlluniau ar gyfer gwaith adnewyddu a mân waith.

In terms of capital, again, there are a number of sources available to further education colleges: the Department for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills capital; the strategic capital investment fund; possibilities of borrowing; and land sales, although they are obviously difficult at present. There are also other possible

O ran cyfalaf, unwaith eto, mae nifer o ffynonellau ar gael i golegau addysg bellach: arian cyfalaf yr Adran dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau; y gronfa buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol; posibiliadau benthyca; a gwerthu tir, er bod hynny, mae’n amlwg, yn anodd ar hyn o bryd. Mae yna ffynonellau posibl eraill hefyd. Mae a wnelo

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sources. Much of what we have planned is about the better use of scarce public resource, and that is where the transformation policy, the 14-19 learning pathways and the underpinning proposed Measure come into play, as does ‘Skills that Work for Wales’.

nifer o’n cynlluniau â defnyddio adnoddau cyhoeddus prin yn well, a dyna ble mae’r polisi gweddnewid, llwybrau dysgu 14-19 a’r Mesur arfaethedig a fydd yn sail iddynt yn berthnasol, a hefyd ‘Sgiliau sy’n Gweithio i Gymru’.

4.50 p.m.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Deputy Minister, will you give way?

Andrew R.T.Davies: Ddirprwy Weinidog, a wnewch chi ildio?

John Griffiths: I am not sure whether I have much time left, Andrew. I will take the Deputy Presiding Officer’s advice.

John Griffiths: Nid wyf yn siŵr a oes gennyf lawer o amser ar ôl, Andrew. Gofynnaf am gyngor y Dirprwy Lywydd.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. It is your time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Eich amser chi yw hwn.

John Griffiths: I am sorry, Andrew, but I think that I had better carry on. A variety of possibilities are open to FE colleges. The funding formula will be reviewed, and we have made that commitment. We will look at moving to three-year funding, as has been mentioned. We are very much committed to pay parity, and we are determined that that will be taken forward and sustained. This is about much better staffing arrangements and quality of provision in further education.

John Griffiths: Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Andrew, ond credaf y byddai’n well imi fwrw ymlaen. Mae amrywiaeth o bosibiliadau ar agor i golegau addysg bellach. Adolygir y fformiwla cyllido, ac yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i hynny. Byddwn yn ystyried symud at drefn ariannu tair blynedd, fel y crybwyllwyd. Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo’n gryf i gyflogau teg, ac yr ydym yn benderfynol o fwrw ymlaen â hynny a’i gynnal. Mae hyn yn golygu trefniadau staffio gwell o lawer ac safon y ddarpariaeth addysg bellach.

The economic summits—and one is being held on Friday—bring together businesses and trade unions. Adrian Webb attends as the chair of the Wales Employment and Skills Board, and he has a crucial role to play in terms of the provision of training. It is the case that we are determined to continue working with the further education colleges in Wales. We value our close partnership with them. There have been real improvements in terms of quality, which we want to drive forward. It is a tight, challenging public spending situation at the moment, but there are also considerable opportunities for further education colleges to play a major part in tackling the downturn. They can provide quality training through the difficulties of the current situation to ensure that Wales emerges fitter and stronger to develop and prosper when the upturn comes, building close relationships with local employers, responding to demand and being

Mae’r uwchgynadleddau economaidd—a chynhelir un ohonynt ddydd Gwener—yn dod â busnesau ac undebau llafur at ei gilydd. Mae Adrian Webb, cadeirydd Bwrdd Cyflogi a Sgiliau Cymru, yn eu mynychu ac mae ganddo rôl hollbwysig i’w chwarae o ran darparu hyfforddiant. Yr ydym yn benderfynol o barhau i weithio gyda’r colegau addysg bellach yng Nghymru. Yr ydym yn gwerthfawrogi ein partneriaeth agos gyda hwy. Mae pethau’n wir wedi gwella o ran ansawdd, ac yr ydym am fwrw ymlaen â hynny. Mae’r sefyllfa gwariant cyhoeddus ar hyn o bryd yn dynn ac yn anodd, ond mae cryn gyfle hefyd i golegau addysg bellach wneud cyfraniad o bwys wrth fynd i’r afael â’r dirywiad. Gallant ddarparu hyfforddiant o safon drwy anawsterau’r sefyllfa bresennol, er mwyn sicrhau bod Cymru’n dod drwy hyn yn iachach ac yn gryfach i ddatblygu a ffynnu pan ddaw tro ar fyd, drwy feithrin perthynas agos â chyflogwyr lleol, drwy ymateb i’r

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the skills drivers for Wales. galw a thrwy sbarduno sgiliau yng Nghymru.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I thank everyone who has contributed to this afternoon’s debate. It has been a lively and focused debate, and I will discuss a couple of the contributions. Jenny highlighted the inconsistencies and inequality between what is going on over the border in England and the resources that are available in Wales. Darren highlighted how north-east colleges are doing a productive job, but in a difficult and challenging environment, and they too are crying out for resource, despite having had a generous settlement from the DCELLS budget. Peter Black highlighted the other end of Wales, the South Wales West region, which he represents, where every single college is suffering a real-terms cut and yet is being asked to deliver training programmes in an era of recession and increased demand.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch i bawb sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl y prynhawn yma. Bu’n ddadl fywiog a manwl, a thrafodaf ambell gyfraniad. Soniodd Jenny am yr anghysonderau a’r diffyg cydraddoldeb rhwng yr hyn sy’n digwydd dros y ffin yn Lloegr a’r adnoddau sydd ar gael yng Nghymru. Soniodd Darren am y ffordd y mae colegau’r gogledd-ddwyrain yn gwneud gwaith da, ond mewn amgylchedd anodd a heriol, ac maent hwy hefyd yn crefu am adnoddau, er iddynt gael setliad hael o gyllideb yr adran. Tynnodd Peter Black sylw at ben arall Cymru, rhanbarth Gorllewin De Cymru, rhanbarth y mae’n ei gynrychioli, lle mae pob un coleg yn dioddef toriadau mewn termau real, ac eto bod gofyn iddynt ddarparu rhaglenni hyfforddiant a hithau’n gyfnod o ddirwasgiad a’r galw’n cynyddu.

Jeff was almost feeling the Minister’s collar and deciding which way it fitted so that he could fit into his chair, because it was the usual rant. As the Chair of the committee that looked at the proposed learning and skills Measure, he knows full well the financial problems that the proposed Measure faces. While there is widespread acceptance of its benefits if delivered properly, there are real concerns over its funding, and FE will be a critical component in the delivery of the learning and skills—

Yr oedd Jeff bron iawn yn cyffwrdd coler y Gweinidog ac yn penderfynu pa ffordd y mae’n ffitio er mwyn iddo allu ffitio i’w gadair, oherwydd cawsom yr un hen refru. Ac yntau’n Gadeirydd y pwyllgor a fu’n ystyried y Mesur arfaethedig ar ddysgu a sgiliau, gŵyr yn dda iawn pa broblemau ariannol y mae’r Mesur arfaethedig yn eu hwynebu. Er bod y rhan fwyaf yn derbyn bod iddo’i fanteision o’i gyflawni’n iawn, mae pobl yn poeni o ddifrif am y cyllido, a bydd addysg bellach yn elfen hollbwysig wrth ddarparu dysgu a sgiliau—

Jeff Cuthbert rose— Jeff Cuthbert a gododd—

Andrew R.T. Davies: I would like to let you come in, Jeff, but I only have four minutes, because this is a 55-minute debate. I apologise for that; I thought it was a 60-minute debate.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Hoffwn ganiatáu ichi ymyrryd, Jeff, ond dim ond pedair munud sydd gennyf oherwydd mai dadl 55 munud yw hon. Ymddiheuraf am hynny; yr oeddwn yn meddwl mai dadl 60 munud ydoedd.

I welcome Nerys, as the education spokeswoman for Plaid, after her early promotion to that role, following Janet’s departure from the education brief—as I understand it, she decided to leave the brief. during the scrutiny of the proposed learning and skills Measure. Nerys highlighted the devastating impact—and I think that those were her words—that these cuts will have on further education. It was a damning statement from the education spokeswoman of a partner

Croesawaf Nerys i swydd llefarydd addysg Plaid Cymru, a hithau wedi’i chodi i’r swydd honno’n fuan ar ôl i Janet ymadael â’r briff addysg. Fel y deallaf, penderfynodd roi’r gorau i’r briff yn ystod y craffu ar y Mesur dysgu a sgiliau arfaethedig. Tynnodd Nerys sylw at yr effaith ddinistriol, a chredaf mai dyna oedd ei geiriau, a gaiff y toriadau hyn ar addysg bellach. Yr oedd yn ddatganiad damniol gan lefarydd addysg un o bartneriaid Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un. Bydd y Cofnod yn

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in the One Wales Government. The Record will show that.

dangos hynny.

The entire debate was not about urging that money should be thrown at the problem, it was about delivering a coherent strategy, which we asked the Deputy Minister to deliver through a three-year budget—and, to be fair, in his response, the Deputy Minister highlighted that they were looking at that. It was a debate about delivering leadership, because FE has no place at the Cabinet table. John is Jane’s deputy, admittedly, but Jane deals with higher education and secondary education, and FE does not have a place at the Welsh Cabinet table, unlike in Westminster. I will let you intervene, John.

Serch hynny, nid dweud bod angen taflu arian at y broblem oedd hanfod yr holl ddadl. Yr oedd a wnelo â gwireddu strategaeth gydlynol, gan ofyn i’r Dirprwy Weinidog wneud hynny drwy gyfrwng cyllideb tair blynedd—ac, a bod yn deg, yn ei ymateb, dywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog eu bod yn ystyried hynny. Yr oedd yn ddadl ynglŷn â rhoi arweiniad, oherwydd nid oes gan addysg bellach le wrth fwrdd y Cabinet. John yw dirprwy Jane, mae hynny’n wir, ond mae Jane yn ymdrin ag addysg uwch ac addysg uwchradd, ac nid oes lle i addysg bellach wrth fwrdd Cabinet Cymru, sy’n wahanol i’r sefyllfa yn San Steffan. Gadawaf ichi ymyrryd, John.

John Griffiths: You misunderstand the way that the ministerial system works here, Andrew. Jane has ministerial Cabinet responsibilities right across DCELLS activity, including further education.

John Griffiths: Yr ydych yn camddeall sut y mae’r system gweinidogion yn gweithio yma, Andrew. Mae gan Jane gyfrifoldebau gweinidog yn y Cabinet dros holl feysydd gweithgarwch APADGOS, gan gynnwys addysg bellach.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I am glad that you clarified that, John. Fforwm told us that it felt that there is no voice for FE around the Cabinet table, but your words seem to imply that there is. There seems to be a breakdown in communication. If a serious partner organisation feels that its voice is not being heard, I know who I will listen to when it puts the arguments to me. My colleagues, Jonathan Morgan and Mark Isherwood, highlighted that Fforwm has been in the domain for the last three to four years, highlighting the unjust settlements that first the Labour Government and now the Labour-Plaid Government have delivered to FE.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Yr wyf yn falch ichi egluro hynny, John. Dywedodd Fforwm wrthym ei fod yn teimlo nad oes llais gan addysg bellach wrth fwrdd y Cabinet, ond mae eich geiriau chi, i bob golwg, yn awgrymu’n wahanol. Ymddengys fod nam ar y cyfathrebu. Os yw corff sy’n bartner pwysig yn teimlo nad yw ei lais yn cael ei glywed, gwn ar bwy y byddaf yn gwrando pan fydd yn cyflwyno’r dadleuon imi. Dywedodd fy nghyd-Aelodau, Jonathan Morgan a Mark Isherwood, fod Fforwm wedi bod yn y maes ers tair neu bedair blynedd bellach, yn tynnu sylw at y setliadau anghyfiawn a gafodd addysg bellach gan y Llywodraeth Lafur yn y lle cyntaf ac yn awr gan y Llywodraeth Lafur-Plaid.

In your response, Minister, you did not address the convergence funding deficit. Not a single farthing has gone to further education colleges in the first two years of that programme. You touched on the economic summits, and you touched on the representation. However, Fforwm is not there, nor is the higher education sector represented. Sadly, Minister, from your response today, I lack any confidence in your

Yn eich ymateb, Weinidog, nid oeddech yn sôn am y diffyg arian cydgyfeirio. Nid yw colegau addysg bellach wedi cael yr un ddimai goch yn ystod dwy flynedd gyntaf y rhaglen honno. Crybwyllwyd yr uwchgynadleddau economaidd gennych a chrybwyllwyd y cynrychiolwyr. Fodd bynnag, nid yw Fforwm yno, ac nid yw’r sector addysg uwch wedi’i gynrychioli ychwaith. Yn anffodus, Weinidog, o’ch

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ability to represent the FE sector and deliver the resources that it requires. The DCELLS budget received a 5.5 per cent increase and you delivered a £3 million cut to the settlement. It is a shame on DCELLS that it cannot act on the words that it delivers in public.

ymateb heddiw nid oes gennyf ffydd yn eich gallu i gynrychioli’r sector addysg bellach a darparu’r adnoddau y mae arno’u hangen. Cynyddwyd cyllideb adran y Gweinidog 5.5 y cant a thociwyd £3 miliwn gennych oddi ar y setliad. Dylech deimlo cywilydd nad yw eich adran yn cadw at yr hyn a honnir ganddi’n gyhoeddus.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? I see that there is objection. Voting will therefore be deferred until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw derbyn gwelliant 1. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod gwrthwynebiad. Byddwn yn gohirio’r pleidleisio felly tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisiau tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.Votes deferred until voting time.

Dadl Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol CymruWelsh Liberal Democrats Debate

Dyledion Personol yng NghymruPersonal Debt in Wales

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones and amendment 2 in the name of William Graham.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones, a gwelliant 2 yn enw William Graham.

Eleanor Burnham: I propose that Eleanor Burnham: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. notes that, as the country enters recession, personal debt remains at an alarming level; and

1. yn nodi, wrth i’r wlad fynd i ddirwasgiad, bod dyledion personol yn dal i fod ar lefel ddychrynllyd o uchel; a

2. calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to publish an action plan to tackle personal debt in Wales, which includes support for third sector organisations involved in assisting people in debt. (NDM4130)

2. yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gyhoeddi cynllun gweithredu i fynd i’r afael â dyledion personol yng Nghymru, sy’n cynnwys cymorth i fudiadau’r trydydd sector sy’n ymwneud â helpu pobl mewn dyled. (NDM4130)

I propose this topical motion on behalf of the Welsh Liberal Democrats. Sadly, our economic situation is dire. As the country enters into recession, personal debt remains at an alarming level, and we call on the Welsh Assembly Government to publish an action plan to tackle personal debt in Wales, which includes support for third sector organisations involved in assisting people who are in debt.

Cynigiaf y cynnig amserol hwn ar ran Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru. Yn anffodus, mae ein sefyllfa economaidd yn enbyd. Wrth i’r wlad lithro i ddirwasgiad, mae dyledion personol yn dal ar lefel ddychrynllyd, a galwn ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i gyhoeddi cynllun gweithredu i fynd i’r afael â dyledion personol yng Nghymru, sy’n cynnwys cefnogaeth i sefydliadau yn y trydydd sector sy’n cynorthwyo pobl mewn dyled.

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As I said, sadly our economic situation is dire. The International Monetary Fund has stated that the UK is suffering more than any other country in the developed world, and this revolves around personal debt, which is also linked with house prices spiralling, bubbles bursting, and so on.

Fel y dywedais, yn anffodus mae ein sefyllfa economaidd yn enbyd. Mae’r Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol wedi dweud bod y DU yn dioddef mwy na’r un wlad arall yn y byd datblygedig a bod hyn yn seiliedig ar ddyledion personol, a hynny’n gysylltiedig hefyd â phrisiau tai yn troelli’n uwch ac yn uwch, swigod yn byrstio, ac ati.

The number of home repossessions has trebled since last year. Last October, it was calculated that every 13 minutes in Wales, a homeowner was facing eviction. Can you imagine what that would mean for any of us here? It is absolutely appalling.

Mae nifer y tai sydd wedi’u hadfeddiannu wedi treblu ers y llynedd. Fis hydref diwethaf, dywedai’r ffigurau fod perchennog yn wynebu cael ei droi allan o’i dŷ bob 13 munud yng Nghymru. A allwch ddychmygu beth y byddai hynny’n ei olygu i unrhyw un ohonom yma? Mae’n gwbl arswydus.

The Welsh jobless total increased by 13,000 in the three months to February, taking the number of unemployed to 98,000. While the UK Labour Government has been passing millions of pounds to the banks and wasting £12 billion with a useless VAT reduction over Christmas, what have the Germans and the French been doing? They have been using a little bit more imagination. The German Chancellor has a much more creative, far-reaching and even eco-friendly scheme to give the equivalent of £2,500 to each person with an eight or nine-year-old car in order to upgrade or trade it up for a newer car. Why can we not use such imagination?

Cynyddodd cyfanswm y di-waith yng Nghymru 13,000 yn y tri mis hyd at fis Chwefror, sy’n golygu bod nifer y di-waith yn 98,000. Tra mae Llywodraeth Lafur y DU wedi bod yn trosglwyddo miliynau o bunnoedd i’r banciau ac yn gwastraffu £12 biliwn drwy ostwng TAW dros y Nadolig, a hynny’n gwbl ddi-fudd, beth y mae’r Almaenwyr a’r Ffrancwyr wedi bod yn ei wneud? Maent wedi bod yn defnyddio ychydig bach mwy o ddychymyg. Mae gan Ganghellor yr Almaen gynllun mwy creadigol, pellgyrhaeddol o lawer sydd hyd yn oed yn eco-gyfeillgar, sef rhoi’r hyn sy’n cyfateb i £2,500 i bob unigolyn sydd â char wyth neu naw mlwydd oed, er mwyn iddo brynu car gwell a mwy newydd yn ei le. Pam na allwn ni ddefnyddio’n dychymyg fel hyn?

Over a year ago, the Welsh Liberal Democrats tabled a debate on personal debt in the Chamber. However, it is a year later and here we are again, still waiting for the Labour-Plaid Welsh Assembly Government to take action. While we will support the Conservative amendment and recognise its merits, we will not support the Government’s amendment. Carwyn Jones suggests in his party’s amendment that we wait for the financial inclusion strategy. We have already waited two years. According to the Welsh Assembly Government’s website:

Dros flwyddyn yn ôl, cyflwynwyd dadl yn y Siambr gan Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru ynglŷn â dyledion personol. Fodd bynnag, flwyddyn yn ddiweddarach, dyma ni unwaith eto yn dal i ddisgwyl i Lywodraeth Lafur-Plaid y Cynulliad wneud rhywbeth. Er y byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr, ac er ein bod yn cydnabod ei ragoriaethau, ni fyddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant y Llywodraeth. Mae Carwyn Jones yn awgrymu yng ngwelliant ei blaid y dylem aros nes y strategaeth cynhwysiant ariannol. Yr ydym eisoes wedi bod yn aros ers dwy flynedd. Yn ôl gwefan Llywodraeth y Cynulliad

‘The Financial Inclusion Strategy for Wales sets out the Welsh Assembly Government’s

‘Mae Strategaeth Cynhwysiant Ariannol Cymru yn amlinellu gweledigaeth, polisi a

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vision, policy and plan to promote financial inclusion over the next three years.’

chynllun Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru er mwyn hyrwyddo cynhwysiant ariannol dros y tair blynedd nesaf.’

While, in part, it aims to improve financial awareness, it is not an action plan to tackle personal debt, which is why we have tabled this debate.

Er mai’r bwriad, yn rhannol, yw gwella ymwybyddiaeth ariannol, nid cynllun gweithredu i fynd i’r afael â dyledion personol yw hwn, a dyna pam yr ydym wedi cyflwyno’r ddadl hon.

5.00 p.m.

We believe that the people of Wales have waited far too long for any type of financial strategy. This week’s launch of a strategy to tackle personal debt was no more than the launch of yet another draft consultation, which will end in May. Some time after that, we will see a new document and, some time after that, we will debate that document. I feel a sense of déjà vu. In November 2007, the Government launched a financial inclusion framework consultation, containing five core themes. They were almost the exact same themes as those in the new consultation document. The response rate to the first consultation was dismally less than 40 per cent. The letter to consultees, dated November 2007, and with a final response date of December 2007, stated that, ‘Our plan’—that is, the Welsh Assembly Government’s plan—

Credwn fod pobl Cymru wedi disgwyl yn rhy hir o lawer am unrhyw fath o strategaeth ariannol. Lansiwyd strategaeth yr wythnos hon i fynd i’r afael â dyledion personol, ond y cyfan oedd hynny oedd lansio ymgynghoriad drafft arall fyth, a ddaw i ben ym mis Mai. Rywbryd wedyn gwelwn ddogfen newydd, a rywbryd wedyn byddwn yn trafod y ddogfen honno. Mae gennyf deimlad o déjà vu. Ym mis Tachwedd 2007 lansiodd y Llywodraeth ymgynghoriad ar fframwaith cynhwysiant ariannol, a oedd yn cynnwys pum thema graidd. Yr oeddent bron yn union yr un fath â’r rheini yn y ddogfen ymgynghori newydd. Yr oedd y gyfradd ymateb i’r ymgynghoriad cyntaf, yn ddigalon, yn llai na 40 y cant. Dywedai’r llythyr at y rhai yr ymgynghorwyd â nhw, dyddiedig Tachwedd 2007, a chyda dyddiad ymateb olaf o fis Rhagfyr 2007, fod ‘Ein cynllun’—hynny yw, cynllun Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru—

‘is to issue a draft Strategy document for public consultation in the new year’.

‘yn mynd i gyhoeddi dogfen Strategaeth ddrafft ar gyfer ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus yn y flwyddyn newydd’.

The original five themes remain in the newly-launched strategy consultation, apart from a one-word change. Will the same organisations be approached? What differences can they expect to see between the two documents? If there is little difference, how can you justify that to those whose houses have been, and will be, repossessed before a proper strategy to address personal debt is finally implemented? Spiralling household costs are affecting everyone. Why are people deserting Waitrose and Marks and Spencer and shopping in Aldi? Apparently, it is because you get better value for money. It is not only the ill-informed or the feckless who are at risk.

Mae’r pum thema wreiddiol yn dal yn y strategaeth ymgynghori sydd newydd ei lansio, ar wahân i un gair a newidiwyd. A fyddwch yn cysylltu â’r un cyrff? Pa wahaniaethau y gallant ddisgwyl eu gweld rhwng y ddwy ddogfen? Os nad oes fawr o wahaniaeth, sut gallwch chi gyfiawnhau hynny i’r rhai y mae eu cartrefi wedi eu hadfeddiannu, ac a fydd yn cael eu hadfeddiannu, cyn y caiff strategaeth briodol i ymdrin â dyledion personol ei rhoi ar waith o’r diwedd? Mae costau cartref cynyddol yn effeithio ar bawb. Pam mae pobl yn troi eu cefnau ar Waitrose a Marks and Spencer ac yn siopa yn Aldi? Mae’n debyg am eich bod yn cael gwell gwerth am eich arian. Nid pobl

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Experienced and skilled workers, regrettably, are losing their jobs, and many are now struggling to repay the debts that they have incurred. What about student debt? I have received many sad letters, which I have quoted before, from nice young people who are now in a mire of student debt, and have jobs that cannot possibly help them to start paying it off.

anwybodus neu ddi-glem yn unig sydd mewn perygl. Mae gweithwyr profiadol a medrus, yn anffodus, yn colli eu swyddi, ac mae llawer yn awr yn cael anhawster i ad-dalu’r dyledion y maent wedi’u cronhoi. Beth am ddyledion myfyrwyr? Yr wyf wedi cael nifer o lythyron trist, fel yr wyf wedi dyfynnu o’r blaen, gan bobl ifanc ddymunol sydd erbyn hyn mewn cors o ddyled myfyrwyr, ac sydd â swyddi nad oes unrhyw obaith iddynt eu helpu i ddechrau clirio’r ddyled.

This debate is about an action plan to tackle personal debt, not about access to financial services for those who may be excluded. Welsh local authorities have accepted over £1.6 million in rent payments on credit cards from their tenants in the past five years. That is appalling. Many people are financially illiterate. They do not understand what a 29 per cent annual percentage rate means, and do not have a clue about what the difference is between 2.9 APR and 29 APR or 290 APR. Sadly, many people do not understand what they are getting into when they use credit cards. Liberal Democrat research has revealed that councils in England and Wales are taking people to court far too quickly if they fall behind with their council tax payments. One million people received court summonses, while bailiffs were called to 600,000 properties. How scary it must be to have people knocking at your door to take away everything that you have, even your house. I cannot imagine anything worse. There is a need to review these procedures in our opinion.

Dadl yw hon am gynllun gweithredu i fynd i’r afael â dyledion personol, nid am allu cael gwasanaethau ariannol i bobl sydd efallai wedi eu hallgáu. Mae awdurdodau lleol Cymru wedi cael dros £1.6 miliwn mewn taliadau rhent ar gardiau credyd gan eu tenantiaid yn y pum mlynedd diwethaf. Mae hynny’n arswydus. Mae llawer o bobl yn anllythrennog yn ariannol. Nid ydynt yn deall beth mae cyfradd flynyddol o 29 y cant yn ei olygu, ac nid oes ganddynt syniad beth yw’r gwahaniaeth rhwng 2.9 APR a 29 APR neu 290 APR. Yn anffodus, mae llawer o bobl nad ydynt yn deall y goblygiadau wrth ddefnyddio cardiau credyd. Mae ymchwil y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi dangos bod cynghorau yng Nghymru a Lloegr yn mynd â phobl i’r llys lawer yn rhy fuan os ydynt yn ar ei hôl hi gyda’u taliadau treth gyngor. Cafodd un filiwn o bobl wysion llys, a galwyd beilïaid i 600,000 o dai. Rhaid ei bod yn ddychryn bywyd pan fydd pobl yn cnocio ar eich drws i gymryd popeth sydd gennych, hyd yn oed eich tŷ. Ni allaf ddychmygu dim byd gwaeth. Mae angen adolygu’r gweithdrefnau hyn yn ein barn ni.

Minister, things are not going to improve just yet. People need help now and the Government needs to act now. It is ridiculous that a whole year has gone by since the last debate, with nothing seeming to have improved. We challenge the Welsh Assembly Government to put its money where its mouth is, because we are talking about people in dire straits.

Weinidog, nid yw pethau’n mynd i wella eto. Mae angen help ar bobl yn awr ac mae angen i’r Llywodraeth weithredu yn awr. Mae’n chwerthinllyd fod blwyddyn gyfan wedi mynd heibio ers y ddadl ddiwethaf, ac nid oes dim wedi gwella yn ôl pob golwg. Heriwn Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i roi ei harian ar ei gair, oherwydd yr ydym yn siarad am bobl sydd mewn cyfyngder mawr.

The Minister for Social Justice and Local Government (Brian Gibbons): I propose amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones. Delete point 2 and replace with:

Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig (Elin Jones): Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones. Dileu pwynt 2 a rhoi yn ei le:

awaits the publication of the Welsh Assembly yn aros i strategaeth Llywodraeth Cynulliad

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Government’s financial inclusion strategy. Cymru ar gynhwysiant ariannol gael ei chyhoeddi.

Mark Isherwood: I propose amendment 2 in the name of William Graham. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Mark Isherwood: Cynigiaf welliant 2 yn enw William Graham. Ychwanegu fel pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

recognises the key role that banks, building societies and other lending institutions, including credit unions, must play in tackling the debt crisis.

yn cydnabod y swyddogaeth allweddol y mae’n rhaid i fanciau, cymdeithasau adeiladu a sefydliadau benthyg eraill, gan gynnwys undebau credyd, ei chwarae wrth fynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng dyledion.

As the inevitable storm clouds gathered, Gordon Brown told us that, thanks to him, Britain was well placed to weather the downturn. Now, as we have heard, the International Monetary Fund warns that Britain will suffer the worst slump of all advanced nations. The independent Institute for Fiscal Studies warns that UK Government debt will remain above pre-crisis levels for 20 years. Last year, citizens’ advice bureaux dealt with 292,000 client issues, of which 106,000 were debt related. In fact, Citizens Advice reports now that it is facing an explosion of inquiries about debt. My home county, Flintshire, has seen the number of people seeking help rise from 50 a week in 2007 to 192 last week, with the bureau in budget deficit and struggling for survival. This is at a time when Citizens Advice Cymru has raised concerns about proposals for the commissioning of community legal advice networks in Wales, as the loss of the single contract will be potentially terminal for the service in any given commissioning area.

Wrth i’r cymylau stormus anochel grynhoi, dywedodd Gordon Brown wrthym fod Prydain, diolch iddo ef, mewn sefyllfa dda i wrthsefyll y dirywiad. Yn awr, fel y clywsom, mae’r Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol yn rhybuddio mai Prydain fydd yn dioddef y dirwasgiad gwaethaf o’r holl wledydd datblygedig. Mae’r Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllidol annibynnol yn rhybuddio y bydd dyledion Llywodraeth y DU yn dal yn uwch na’r lefelau cyn yr argyfwng am 20 mlynedd. Y llynedd, deliodd y canolfannau cyngor ar bopeth â 292,000 o broblemau cleientiaid, 106,000 yn ymwneud â dyledion. Mae fy sir frodorol i, sir y Fflint, wedi gweld nifer y bobl sy’n gofyn am help yn codi o 50 yr wythnos yn 2007 i 192 yr wythnos diwethaf, ac mae’r ganolfan mewn diffyg o ran ei chyllideb ac yn brwydro i ddal i fynd. Mae hyn ar adeg pan yw Cyngor ar Bopeth Cymru wedi codi pryderon ynglŷn â chynigion i gomisiynu rhwydweithiau cyngor cyfreithiol cymunedol yng Nghymru, gan y bydd colli’r contract unigol o bosibl yn angheuol i’r gwasanaeth mewn unrhyw ardal gomisiynu benodol.

As amendment 2 states, we must recognise the key role that banks, building societies and other lending institutions, including credit unions, must play in tackling the debt crisis. The number of home owners behind with their mortgage repayments is up 24 per cent on last year, and, across the UK, the number of repossessions in the third quarter of 2008 exceeded 13,000, which is up 92 per cent on a year earlier, with Wales hardest hit.

Fel y dywed gwelliant 2, rhaid inni gydnabod y rôl allweddol y mae’n rhaid i fanciau, cymdeithasau adeiladu a sefydliadau benthyca eraill, gan gynnwys undebau credyd, ei chwarae i fynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng dyledion. Mae nifer y perchnogion cartrefi sydd ar ei hôl hi gyda’u had-daliadau morgais 24 y cant yn uwch na’r llynedd, ac ar draws y DU yr oedd nifer yr achosion o adfeddiannu yn nhrydydd chwarter 2008 dros 13,000, sef cynnydd o 92 y cant o’i gymharu â’r flwyddyn flaenorol, a Chymru’n dioddef waethaf.

Radio 4 reported that one fifth of the £9.5 Dywedodd Radio 4 fod un rhan o bump o’r

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million committed thus far to the Welsh Assembly Government’s mortgage rescue scheme had already been spent on helping just 30 households. However, the Council of Mortgage Lenders forecasts that there will be 75,000 mortgage repossessions this year, with up to 5,000 of those in Wales. The Council of Mortgage Lenders says that we need a much more ambitious package of measures to support homeowners and to address the worsening environment in what is expected to be a deep recession. The recent Council of Mortgage Lenders conference called for an honest assessment of the challenges facing the lending industry. It said that there are inherent conflicts in demands to improve the flow of funding, to be more lenient with borrowers, and to improve the capital position of firms all at the same time. Politicians of all parties must acknowledge that.

£9.5 miliwn sydd wedi ei rwymo hyd yma i gynllun achub morgeisi Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru eisoes wedi ei wario ar helpu 30 yn unig o aelwydydd. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Cyngor Benthycwyr Morgeisi yn rhagweld y bydd 75,000 o achosion o adfeddiannu morgeisi eleni, ac y bydd hyd at 5,000 o’r rheini yng Nghymru. Dywed y Cyngor Benthycwyr Morgeisi fod arnom angen pecyn llawer mwy uchelgeisiol o fesurau i gynorthwyo perchnogion tai ac i ymdrin ag amgylchedd sy’n gwaethygu mewn dirwasgiad y disgwylir iddo fod yn un dwfn. Galwodd cynhadledd y Cyngor Benthycwyr Morgeisi yn ddiweddar am asesiad gonest o’r heriau sy’n wynebu’r diwydiant benthyca. Dywedodd fod gwrthdaro anorfod yn y galwadau i wella’r llif benthyca, i fod yn fwy tirion wrth bobl sy’n benthyca, ac i wella sefyllfa gyfalaf cwmnïau, i gyd yr un pryd. Rhaid i wleidyddion o bob plaid gydnabod hynny.

I welcomed the new initiative from NatWest bank, in partnership with the Consumer Credit Counselling Service, to offer free, impartial financial guidance to everyone, including the customers of other banks and people without bank accounts. We must now call on other banks to follow suit. The courts have ruled that banks can only charge customers what it costs the bank to administer in bank charges, however, HSBC, for instance, charges £150 when a customer exceeds his or her overdraft limit and a further £25 for each direct debit that the bank then refuses to honour. That means that, for many customers, one step forward can mean two steps back. We must therefore look forward to pending court rulings on how much banks must refund customers and call on the banks to focus on individual customer needs in the meantime, given the current environment.

Croesewais y cynllun newydd gan fanc NatWest, mewn partneriaeth â’r Gwasanaeth Cwnsela ar Gredyd Defnyddwyr, i gynnig arweiniad ariannol diduedd yn rhad ac am ddim i bawb, gan gynnwys cwsmeriaid banciau eraill a phobl nad oes ganddynt gyfrifon banc. Rhaid inni alw’n awr ar fanciau eraill i wneud yr un fath. Mae’r llysoedd wedi dyfarnu y caiff banciau godi ar gwsmeriaid dim ond yr hyn y mae’n ei gostio i’r banc i weinyddu taliadau. Fodd bynnag, mae HSBC, er enghraifft, yn codi £150 pan fydd cwsmer yn mynd dros ei derfyn gorddrafft ynghyd â £25 arall am bob debyd uniongyrchol y mae’r banc yn gwrthod ei anrhydeddu wedyn. Mae hynny’n golygu, i lawer o gwsmeriaid, fod un cam ymlaen yn gallu golygu dau gam yn ôl. Rhaid felly inni edrych ymlaen at ddyfarniadau llys sydd yn yr arfaeth ar faint y mae rhaid i fanciau ei ad-dalu i gwsmeriaid a galw ar y banciau i ganolbwyntio ar anghenion y cwsmer unigol yn y cyfamser, wrth ystyried yr amgylchedd ar hyn o bryd.

Too many young people leave school with a low level of financial capability. The Minister for Social Justice and Local Government has announced plans to include financial education in schools. We do, of course, need to develop people’s skills and confidence in managing their own money.

Mae gormod o bobl ifanc yn gadael yr ysgol gyda lefel isel o allu ariannol. Mae’r Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol wedi cyhoeddi cynlluniau i gynnwys addysg ariannol mewn ysgolion. Wrth gwrs, mae angen inni ddatblygu sgiliau a hyder pobl i reoli eu harian eu hunain. Mae

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The Institute of Financial Services’ School of Finance has already established school-based financial qualifications aimed at 14 to 19-year-olds and available to schools and colleges throughout the UK. These are designed to help individuals understand finances and the influences that they have on everyday life. Where these have been introduced, students have shown a good understanding of personal finance, which contrasts with the findings of an Ofsted report in England, ‘Developing Financially Capable Young People’, which found that when personal finance education was taught across several areas of the curriculum, the result was often a lack of coherence. It also noted that the schools and colleges often failed to identify what they expected students to achieve at particular ages.

Ysgol Gyllid y Sefydliad Gwasanaethau Ariannol eisoes wedi sefydlu cymwysterau ariannol yn seiliedig yn yr ysgol, yn targedu pobl ifanc 14 i 19 oed, sydd ar gael i ysgolion a cholegau ledled y DU. Cynlluniwyd y rhain i helpu unigolion i ddeall cyllid a’r dylanwad a gaiff ar fywyd bob dydd. Lle mae’r rhain wedi eu cyflwyno, mae myfyrwyr wedi dangos dealltwriaeth dda o gyllid bersonol, yn wahanol i’r darganfyddiadau gan Ofsted yn Lloegr, ‘Developing Financially Capable Young People. Darganfu hwnnw, pan oedd addysg cyllid bersonol yn cael ei darparu ar draws llawer maes o’r cwricwlwm, mai’r canlyniad yn aml oedd diffyg cydlyniad. Sylwodd hefyd nad oedd yr ysgolion a’r colegau yn aml yn nodi beth yr oeddent yn disgwyl i fyfyrwyr ei gyflawni ar oedrannau penodol.

The Welsh Assembly Government’s draft financial inclusion strategy outlines support for post offices and credit unions to develop new services and affordable financial products, embracing a policy that was first proposed by Conservatives. However, if this is to become an effective alternative to loan sharks, we must tackle credit unions’ aversion to risk in the current climate, by providing access to underwriting expertise. Above all, if the Welsh Government’s strategy is to be effective, it must be delivered in real strategic partnership with the financial sector.

Mae strategaeth ddrafft Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar gynhwysiant ariannol yn amlinellu cymorth i swyddfeydd post ac undebau credyd i ddatblygu gwasanaethau newydd a chynnyrch ariannol fforddiadwy, gan arddel polisi a gafodd ei awgrymu gyntaf gan y Ceidwadwyr. Fodd bynnag, os yw hyn i ddod yn ddewis amgen effeithiol yn lle benthycwyr arian didrwydded, rhaid inni fynd i’r afael ag amharodrwydd undebau credyd i dderbyn risg yn yr hinsawdd bresennol, drwy ddarparu mynediad i arbenigedd tanysgrifennu. Uwchlaw popeth, os yw strategaeth Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i fod yn effeithiol, rhaid iddi gael ei rhoi ar waith mewn partneriaeth strategol wirioneddol gygda’r sector ariannol.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: As the Business Committee has decided that this was to be a 50-minute debate and I have a long list of speakers, I will limit the remaining speakers to three minutes each.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Gan fod y Pwyllgor Busnes wedi penderfynu mai dadl 50 munud yw hon i fod a bod gennyf restr hir o siaradwyr, byddaf yn cyfyngu’r siaradwyr sydd ar ôl i dair munud yr un.

Jenny Randerson: The people who come to mind at a time of economic crisis, when we talk about debt, are those who have been made redundant. However, it is important to think about other categories of people for whom debt is also a mounting problem. It is interesting that the Government’s initiative to help to eradicate personal debt includes financial education. The Government might, of course, start with the universities, because university students, on average, now leave

Jenny Randerson: Y bobl sy’n dod i’r meddwl ar adeg o argyfwng economaidd, pan fyddwn yn siarad am ddyledion, yw’r rheini sydd wedi colli eu swyddi. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig meddwl am gategorïau eraill o bobl sydd â dyledion hefyd yn broblem gynyddol iddynt. Mae’n ddiddorol fod cynllun y Llywodraeth i helpu dileu dyledion personol yn cynnwys addysg ariannol. Gallai’r Llywodraeth, wrth gwrs, ddechrau gyda’r prifysgolion, oherwydd mae

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with a debt of at least £12,000. We have a whole new generation, thanks to the Labour Government, that has come to accept debt of that size as a normal part of life. Many of them go on to struggle with the additional debts that they accumulate, with mortgages and so on, on top.

myfyrwyr prifysgol erbyn hyn ar gyfartaledd yn gadael gyda dyled o £12,000 o leiaf. Mae gennym genhedlaeth newydd gyfan, diolch i’r Llywodraeth Lafur, sydd wedi dod i dderbyn dyled o’r maint hwnnw fel rhan arferol o fywyd. Mae nifer ohonynt yn mynd ymlaen i frwydro gyda’r dyledion ychwanegol y maent yn eu cronni, gyda morgeisi ac ati, ar ben hynny.

5.10 p.m.

Looking at the information that one can find on debt and debt counselling, I noticed that the Consumer Credit Counselling Service states that the average amount of money that its clients have left to pay off debts has fallen to just £21 a month, compared with £130 five years ago. That shows you that debt is becoming a larger proportion of our income, and is becoming a more significant problem. Citizens Advice says that since 2007, it has dealt with more debt queries than it does queries on benefits and taxation—for the first time in its history. It says that there was a 60 per cent increase in the number of client issues in 2007-08 relating to mortgage and secured loan problems. There was a 36 per cent increase in the number of bankruptcy issues dealt with, a 25 per cent increase in water supply debt problems, a 19 per cent increase in credit, store and charge card debt problems and a 16 per cent increase in fuel debt problems, and that was before the massive hike in fuel prices. The 60 per cent overall increase in such queries in Wales contrasts with an overall increase of 35 per cent in England. In other words, things are becoming increasingly difficult in Wales.

Wrth edrych ar y wybodaeth y gallwch ei chael am ddyledion a chwnsela ynglŷn â dyledion, sylwais fod y Gwasanaeth Cwnsela ar Gredyd Defnyddwyr yn dweud bod yr arian sydd gan ei gleientiaid dros ben ar gyfartaledd i dalu eu dyledion wedi disgyn i ddim ond £21 y mis, o’i gymharu â £130 bum mlynedd yn ôl. Mae hynny’n dangos ichi fod dyledion yn dod yn gyfran fwy o’n hincwm, a’u bod yn dod yn broblem fwy arwyddocaol. Dywed Cyngor Ar Bopeth ei fod, er 2007, wedi delio â mwy o ymholiadau am ddyledion nag o ymholiadau am fudd-daliadau a threthi—am y tro cyntaf yn ei hanes. Dywed fod cynnydd o 60 y cant yn nifer y problemau cleientiaid yn 2007-08 yn ymwneud â morgeisi a benthyciadau gwarantedig. Bu cynnydd o 36 y cant yn nifer y problemau methdaliad y deliwyd â hwy, cynnydd o 25 y cant yn y problemau dyledion yn ymwneud â’r cyflenwad dŵr, cynnydd o 19 y cant mewn problemau dyledion ar gardiau credyd, cardiau siopau a chardiau talu, a chynnydd o 16 y cant mewn problemau gyda dyledion tanwydd, a hynny cyn y cynnydd enfawr ym mhrisiau tanwydd. Mae’r cynnydd o 60 y cant drwyddi draw mewn ymholiadau o’r fath yng Nghymru yn wahanol i’r cynnydd drwyddi draw o 35 y cant yn Lloegr. Mewn geiriau eraill, mae pethau’n mynd yn gynyddol anodd yng Nghymru.

Finally, I wish to raise the issue of people who face ill health, particularly cancer patients. Nine out of 10 cancer patient households suffer a loss of income or increased costs as a result of cancer. They are often unaware of the benefits that they are entitled to claim. They face terrific financial problems and pressures on the home at a time when they face ill health and are less able to cope with those financial pressures. As a

Yn olaf, hoffwn godi mater pobl sy’n wynebu afiechyd, yn enwedig cleifion canser. Mae naw o bob 10 o aelwydydd lle mae cleifion canser yn dioddef colli incwm neu gostau uwch oherwydd canser. Yn yn aml nid ydynt yn ymwybodol o’r budd-daliadau y mae ganddynt hawl iddynt. Maent yn wynebu problemau ariannol aruthrol a phwysau ar y cartref ar adeg pan fyddant yn wynebu afiechyd ac yn llai abl i ymdopi â’r pwysau

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society and a nation, we need to tackle the issue of public awareness and public information, and also to ensure that our citizens advice bureaux and other debt counselling services are empowered to provide additional help, and are not faced with the potential abolition through the system of co-ordination and the one-size-fits-all approach that is proposed in the community legal advice networks programme.

ariannol hynny. Fel cymdeithas ac fel cenedl mae angen inni fynd i’r afael â mater ymwybyddiaeth gyhoeddus a gwybodaeth gyhoeddus, a sicrhau hefyd fod ein canolfannau cyngor ar bopeth a gwasanaethau eraill i roi cyngor am ddyledion yn cael eu grymuso i ddarparu help ychwanegol, ac nad ydynt yn wynebu posibilrwydd cael eu diddymu drwy’r system o gyd-drefnu ac un-ateb-yn-gweddu-i-bawb a gynigir yn rhaglen y rhwydweithiau cyngor cyfreithiol cymunedol.

Huw Lewis: The credit crunch and its dramatic fall-out have brought personal debt to the forefront of our minds, but it is not a new problem. We should use this opportunity to tackle the issue head on.

Huw Lewis: Mae’r wasgfa gredyd a’i sgileffeithiau dramatig wedi gwneud dyledion personol yn flaenllaw yn ein meddyliau, ond nid yw’n broblem newydd. Dylem achub ar y cyfle hwn i fynd i’r afael â’r mater hwn ar ei ben.

Personal debt is an area intrinsically linked to financial inclusion and financial literacy—we have already heard colleagues mention that. If we want to tackle personal debt, we must make progress in those areas. Members will be aware of the fantastic work carried out by citizens advice bureaux across the country, and we must ensure that they have the resources that they need to respond to the inevitable increase in the demand for their services.

Mae dyledion personol yn faes sydd â chyswllt anorfod â chynhwysiant ariannol a llythrennedd ariannol—yr ydym eisoes wedi clywed cyd-Aelodau’n crybwyll hynny. Os ydym i fynd i’r afael â dyledion personol, rhaid inni wneud cynnydd yn y meysydd hynny. Bydd Aelodau’n gwybod am y gwaith gwych a wneir gan ganolfannau cyngor ar bopeth ar draws y wlad, a rhaid inni sicrhau bod yr adnoddau gofynnol ganddynt i ymateb i’r cynnydd anochel yn y galw am eu gwasanaethau.

The credit unions should also play a key role in any new strategies to promote financial inclusion, and should be given all possible help and support to allow them to expand their range of services and attract new members. It was great to see the new debit card account being offered to members of the Llandudno credit union, and all credit to it. I hope that this will be the first of many similar schemes across Wales.

Dylai’r undebau credyd hefyd gael rhan allweddol mewn unrhyw strategaethau newydd i hyrwyddo cynhwysiant ariannol, a dylid rhoi pob cymorth a chefnogaeth bosibl iddynt i ganiatáu iddynt ehangu amrediad eu gwasanaethau a denu aelodau newydd. Yr oedd yn wych gweld y cyfrif cerdyn debyd newydd yn cael ei gynnig i aelodau undeb credyd Llandudno, a phob clod iddo. Gobeithio mai hwn fydd y cyntaf o nifer o gynlluniau tebyg ar draws Cymru.

It is worth reminding ourselves of the other side of that coin—the loan sharks, the payday and log book loans, and the other rip-off schemes designed to prey on the poor and desperate, which are often deliberately targeted at deprived areas such as my constituency. At a time such as this, we will see an increasing number of people who are struggling to balance the family finances, are being refused credit by the banks and perhaps

Mae’n werth inni ein atgoffa’n hunain o ochr arall y geiniog honno—y benthycwyr arian didrwydded, y benthyciadau diwrnod tâl a llyfr log, a chynlluniau twyllodrus eraill a gynlluniwyd i fanteisio ar bobl dlawd sydd mewn trybini, sy’n targedu’n fwriadol yn aml ar ardaloedd difreintiedig fel fy etholaeth i. Ar adeg fel hon, byddwn yn gweld nifer cynyddol o bobl sy’n cael anhawster i fantoli arian y teulu, a’r banciau’n gwrthod credyd

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facing the threat or reality of redundancy, turning to these alternatives in a last ditch effort to get back on track. The fact is that the astronomically high interest rates of such lenders will only make things worse for those who are already struggling; those interest rate levels should be illegal. To try to prevent this from happening, it is our duty to get as much information as possible about the credit unions and other responsible lenders out there to people.

iddynt ac sydd efallai’n wynebu bygythiad neu realiti colli eu swyddi, yn troi at y dewisiadau amgen hyn mewn ymdrech olaf i achub y sefyllfa. Y ffaith yw na fydd cyfraddau llog brawychus o uchel gan fenthycwyr o’r fath ond yn gwneud pethau’n waeth i’r rheini sydd eisoes yn ei chael hi’n anodd; dylai’r lefelau hynny o gyfraddau llog fod yn anghyfreithlon. I geisio atal hyn rhag digwydd, ein dyletswydd ni yw sicrhau bod cymaint â phosibl o wybodaeth am yr undebau credyd a benthycwyr cyfrifol eraill yn cyrraedd y bobl allan yna.

When it comes to financial responsibility, the Assembly should lead the way. Since the beginning of 2008, retail deposits made to the Co-operative Bank have increased by 40 per cent, and it has seen an 80 per cent increase in the number of people opening current accounts. This spike in deposits has allowed it to increase lending to customers by 15 per cent, which is impressive when you consider the self-imposed freeze that we have witnessed from other lenders.

Wrth sôn am gyfrifoldeb ariannol, dylai’r Cynulliad arwain y ffordd. Ers dechrau 2008, mae’r arian sydd wedi ei adneuo gyda’r Co-operative Bank wedi cynyddu 40 y cant, ac mae wedi gweld cynnydd o 80 y cant yn nifer y bobl sy’n agor cyfrifon cyfredol. Mae’r sbigyn hwn mewn adneuon wedi caniatáu iddo gynyddu’r benthyciadau i gwsmeriaid 15 y cant, sy’n drawiadol pan ystyriwch fod benthycwyr eraill wedi penderfynu, ohonynt eu hunain, rewi benthyciadau.

It seems that many people are realising that there is an ethical and responsible alternative to the lending policies of some of the large high-street banks that have let down so many people. Perhaps it is time the Assembly followed suit and itself started banking ethically and safely.

Mae’n debyg fod nifer o bobl yn sylweddoli bod dewis arall moesegol a chyfrifol i’w gael yn lle polisïau benthyca rhai o’r banciau mawr ar y stryd fawr, sydd wedi siomi cynifer o bobl. Efallai ei bod yn bryd i’r Cynulliad ddilyn yr un drefn a dechrau bancio’n foesegol ac yn ddiogel ei hun.

Mohammad Asghar: I am grateful to my colleagues for their contributions to this debate on a serious issue facing not only Wales but countries all over the world. This situation is not down to us; these are imported problems, caused by un-audited and unconditional lending to various groups in America. We should be giving advice to the House of Commons on the steps that should be taken to save the houses of people in our communities. I mentioned not long ago a simple step that could be taken, namely extending the term of mortgages to reduce payments. Mortgages of 50 or 100 years could be given to families, and the payments would be one tenth or one fifth of what people pay now. If that happened, no houses would be repossessed in this country, but that action was not considered. Students should be entitled to relief on their loan repayments until their income reaches a certain threshold.

Mohammad Asghar: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’m cyd-Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau i’r ddadl hon ar fater difrifol sy’n wynebu gwledydd ledled y byd, nid Cymru’n unig. Nid ni sydd wedi achosi’r sefyllfa hon; mae’r rhain yn broblemau oddi allan a achoswyd gan fenthyca diamod heb ei archwilio i amrywiol grwpiau yn America. Dylem fod yn cynghori Tŷ’r Cyffredin am y camau y dylid eu cymryd i achub tai pobl yn ein cymunedau. Ychydig amser yn ôl soniais am gam syml y gellid ei gymryd, sef ymestyn cyfnod morgeisi i leihau taliadau. Gellid rhoi morgeisi 50 neu 100 mlynedd i deuluoedd, a byddai’r taliadau’n un rhan o ddeg neu’n un rhan o bump o’r hyn y mae pobl yn ei dalu’n awr. Petai hynny’n digwydd, ni fyddai unrhyw dai’n cael eu hailfeddiannu yn y wlad hon, ond nid ystyriwyd y cam hwnnw. Dylai fod hawl gan fyfyrwyr gael gostyngiad yn eu had-daliadau benthyciad nes bydd eu hincwm

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There are many suggestions that we could make to our senior politicians in London for laws that would mean that we did not fall into the trap of a credit crunch.

yn cyrraedd trothwy penodol. Mae yna nifer o awgrymiadau y gallem eu gwneud i’n huwch-wleidyddion yn Llundain am ddeddfau a fyddai’n golygu y byddem yn osgoi magl y wasgfa gredyd.

People are going to loan sharks and to different places because banks are not lending them money. There is a good old saying: out of debt, out of trouble. When people have been refused money by the banks, they will go anywhere to borrow money if they need it, and that is when loan sharks make their money, out of people who are then even further in debt. We must regulate the Financial Services Authority, because it is not only the banks. Most of the banking ombudsmen are employed by the banks. They protect the interests of banks, not of the public. Therefore, there are many changes that we must suggest to our senior politicians in London. The rules in this country must be changed so that we can get out of this recession.

Mae pobl yn mynd at fenthycwyr arian didrwydded a gwahanol leoedd am nad yw banciau’n rhoi benthyg arian iddynt. Mae yna hen ddywediad da: allan o ddyled, allan o drafferth. Pan fydd y banciau wedi gwrthod arian i bobl, byddant yn mynd i unrhyw le i fenthyg arian os oes arnynt ei angen, a dyna pryd y bydd benthycwyr arian didrwydded yn gwneud eu harian, gan bobl sydd wedyn mewn dyled ddyfnach fyth. Mae’n rhaid inni reoleiddio’r Awdurdod Gwasanaethau Ariannol, oherwydd nid y banciau’n unig sydd dan sylw. Mae mwyafrif yr ombwdsmyn bancio’n cael eu cyflogi gan y banciau. Amddiffyn buddiannau banciau y maent, nid y cyhoedd. Mae nifer o newidiadau, felly, y mae’n rhaid inni eu hawgrymu i’n huwch wleidyddion yn Llundain. Rhaid newid y rheolau yn y wlad hon er mwyn inni allu dod allan o’r dirwasgiad hwn.

The most important thing to implement is more confidence. We have not improved confidence in this country yet. Not long ago, one bank was making £5 million to £10 million profit a year and then, last year, it showed that it was making less profit so the Bank of England has thrown money at it—and for what purpose? For it to put in its pocket; it has not come up with any good reason why that bank needed the money. This is not the time to say, ‘He is suffering, she is suffering, or companies are suffering’; the Bank of England is trying to buy quality debts back to increase liquidity. What a stupid thing to do. Changes are needed, and we need to think seriously about this.

Y peth pwysicaf i’w roi ar waith yw mwy o hyder. Nid ydym eto wedi gwella hyder yn y wlad hon. Heb fod ymhell yn ôl, yr oedd un banc yn gwneud £5 miliwn i £10 miliwn o elw y flwyddyn ac wedyn, y llynedd, dangosodd ei fod yn gwneud llai o elw, felly mae Banc Lloegr wedi taflu arian ato—ac i ba ddiben? Er mwyn iddo ei roi yn ei boced; nid yw wedi meddwl am unrhyw reswm da pam yr oedd angen yr arian ar y banc hwnnw. Nid dyma’r amser i ddweud, ‘Mae e’n dioddef, mae hi’n dioddef, neu mae cwmnïau’n dioddef’; mae Banc Lloegr yn ceisio prynu dyledion o safon yn ôl er mwyn cynyddu hylifedd. Sôn am beth gwirion i’w wneud. Mae angen newidiadau, ac mae angen inni feddwl yn ddifrifol am hyn.

Nick Ramsay: I am grateful to the Welsh Liberal Democrats for bringing forward this important debate. It is important because it ties together two of the key issues facing us in Wales: the economic downturn and the growing problem of personal debt.

Nick Ramsay: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru am gyflwyno’r ddadl bwysig hon. Mae’n bwysig oherwydd ei bod yn cyfuno dau o’r materion allweddol sy’n ein hwynebu yng Nghymru: y dirywiad economaidd a phroblem gynyddol dyled bersonol.

The European Commission has said that Mae’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd wedi dweud

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Britain is facing a deeper recession next year than the United States, Japan or any other major EU economy. The First Minister has told us that Wales is better prepared to face a recession than any other part of the UK and any other country; in fact, we are the worst prepared. One reason why our recession is predicted to be deeper than anyone else’s is that we have such high levels of personal debt; they are the highest of any major economy.

bod Prydain yn wynebu dirwasgiad dyfnach y flwyddyn nesaf nag yn yr Unol Daleithiau, Japan ac unrhyw economi fawr arall yn yr UE. Mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi dweud wrthym fod Cymru wedi paratoi’n well ar gyfer wynebu dirwasgiad nag unrhyw ran arall o’r DU ac unrhyw wlad arall; mewn gwirionedd, ni sydd wedi paratoi waethaf. Un rheswm pam y rhagwelir y bydd ein dirwasgiad yn ddyfnach na dirwasgiad neb arall yw bod gennym lefelau mor uchel o ddyled bersonol; y rhain yw’r uchaf o blith unrhyw economi fawr.

Fifteen years ago, at the beginning of the last period of economic growth, UK households saved 8 per cent of their disposable incomes. Partly due to the surge in house prices, especially since interest rates were low, the attitude to savings has changed dramatically: bricks and mortar are now seen to be a better investment. The result is negative net savings rates from 2004 and more than £1 trillion in accumulated debt. That is a phenomenal figure. It has been mentioned by other Assembly Members, and I mention it again because it is truly breathtaking and it demonstrates the scale of the problem that we face.

Bymtheg mlynedd yn ôl, ar ddechrau’r cyfnod diwethaf o dwf economaidd, yr oedd cartrefi’r DU yn cynilo 8 y cant o’u hincwm gwario. Yn rhannol oherwydd yr ymchwydd ym mhrisiau tai, yn benodol am fod cyfraddau llog yn isel, mae’r agwedd at gynilion wedi newid yn sylweddol: ystyrir bellach bod brics a morter yn well buddsoddiad. Y canlyniad yw cyfraddau cynilion net negyddol o 2004 a thros £1 triliwn mewn dyled gronedig. Mae hwnnw’n ffigur aruthrol. Mae Aelodau Cynulliad eraill wedi sôn amdano, a soniaf amdano eto gan ei fod yn hollol syfrdanol ac yn dangos maint y broblem a wynebwn.

5.20 p.m.

I recognise that the Government has launched strategies involving financial inclusion champions, and I am sure that the Minister will mention those later. That is fine as far as it goes, but it does not go far enough. Education is the key to much of this, and we debated that earlier. Without education, we will not encourage people to think fiscally and in a more prudent way in years to come.

Yr wyf yn cydnabod bod y Llywodraeth wedi lansio strategaethau sy’n cynnwys hyrwyddwyr cynhwysiant ariannol, ac yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Gweinidog yn sôn am y rheini wedyn. Nid oes dim o’i le ar hynny fel y mae, ond nid yw’n mynd yn ddigon pell. Addysg yw’r allwedd i lawer o hyn, a buom yn dadlau hynny’n gynharach. Heb addysg, ni fyddwn yn annog pobl i feddwl yn gyllidol ac mewn modd mwy darbodus mewn blynyddoedd i ddod.

We also debated child poverty earlier and heard that a staggering number of children across Wales are growing up in relative poverty. Likewise, a staggering number are growing up in households that are weighed down by the heavy burden of debt. You cannot deal with the problem of child poverty unless you address the problem of debt facing the households in which they are growing up. My colleague, Mark Isherwood, spoke of the important role of Citizens Advice in dealing

Buom hefyd yn dadlau’n gynharach am dlodi plant, a chlywsom fod nifer ysgytwol o blant ledled Cymru yn tyfu i fyny mewn tlodi cymharol. Yn yr un modd, mae nifer ysgytwol yn tyfu i fyny mewn cartrefi lle mae baich trwm dyled. Ni allwn ymdrin â phroblem tlodi plant onid ewch i’r afael â’r broblem ddyled sy’n wynebu’r cartrefi lle maent yn tyfu i fyny. Siaradodd fy nghyd-Aelod, Mark Isherwood, am rôl bwysig Cyngor ar Bopeth wrth ymdrin â’r argyfwng

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with this crisis. I recently met with staff at my local citizens’ advice bureau, and I saw that it is at the sharp end, dealing with the economic downturn and the growing problems facing my constituents, as well as those of all Members.

hwn. Cyfarfûm yn ddiweddar â staff yn fy nghanolfan cyngor ar bopeth yn lleol, a gwelais eu bod wrthi’n ddyfal yn ymdrin â’r dirywiad economaidd a’r problemau cynyddol sy’n wynebu fy etholwyr, yn ogystal ag etholwyr pob Aelod.

A mindset has developed among students who feel betrayed by this Government; they feel that they are in debt and are likely to stay in debt, so they wonder what point there is in doing anything to get out of debt. Unless we change that mindset, people will not seek to get out of debt in the future. I do not feel that the Assembly Government has done anything like enough to tackle that problem or to support those third sector organisations that, along with the Government, are necessary to deal with this problem.

Mae meddylfryd wedi datblygu ymhlith myfyrwyr sy’n teimlo bod y Llywodraeth hon wedi’u bradychu; maent yn teimlo’u bod mewn dyled ac yn debygol o aros mewn dyled, felly, maent yn gofyn iddynt eu hunain tybed beth yw diben gwneud unrhyw beth i ddod allan o ddyled. Oni newidiwn y meddylfryd hwnnw, ni fydd pobl yn ceisio dod allan o ddyled yn y dyfodol. Nid wyf yn teimlo bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi gwneud hanner digon i fynd i’r afael â’r broblem honno na chefnogi’r sefydliadau trydydd sector hynny sydd, ynghyd â’r Llywodraeth, yn angenrheidiol i ymdrin â’r broblem hon.

Val Lloyd: As Eleanor said, we are in difficult economic and financial times, and that makes the topic under discussion all the more pressing. Like Eleanor, I welcome the Welsh Assembly Government’s consultation on financial inclusion, which was launched earlier this week. It combines suggestions for a range of issues from credit access to advice and education, while focusing on the institutions embedded in our local communities, such as post offices and credit unions. It is the potential of credit unions that I want to comment on specifically.

Val Lloyd: Fel y dywedodd Eleanor, yr ydym mewn cyfnod economaidd ac ariannol anodd, ac mae hynny’n gwneud y pwnc sy’n cael ei drafod yn fwy enbyd byth. Fel Eleanor, croesawaf ymgynghoriad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru am gynhwysiant ariannol, a lansiwyd yn gynharach yr wythnos hon. Mae’n cyfuno awgrymiadau am amrywiaeth o faterion o gael credyd i gyngor ac addysg, gan ganolbwyntio ar yr un pryd ar y sefydliadau sy’n rhan annatod o’n cymunedau lleol, fel swyddfeydd post ac undebau credyd. Potensial undebau credyd yr hoffwn sôn amdano’n benodol.

Credit unions originally offered a standard savings and loans account to the communities that they served, but, over the past 10 years, their service portfolios have diversified, expanding the range of financial products available to our communities, especially the financially excluded. That diversification has been supported by the Labour Government at Westminster, for example, through the growth fund of the Department for Work and Pensions, and through regulation changes, and by the Welsh Assembly Government, through the credit union strategy in 2002, and support for debt redemption and money advice schemes.

Yr oedd undebau credyd yn wreiddiol yn cynnig cyfrif cynilion a benthyciadau safonol i’r cymunedau yr oeddent yn eu gwasanaethu. Ond dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf mae eu portffolios gwasanaeth wedi amrywio, gan ehangu amrywiaeth y cynhyrchion ariannol sydd ar gael i’n cymunedau, yn benodol y rheini sydd wedi’u hallgáu’n ariannol. Cefnogwyd yr amrywio hwnnw gan y Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan, er enghraifft, drwy gronfa dwf yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau a thrwy newid rheoliadau, a chan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru drwy’r strategaeth undebau credyd yn 2002, a chymorth ar gyfer cynlluniau adbrynu dyled a chyngor ariannol.

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Recent research by Liverpool John Moores University shows that two thirds of credit unions relate their growth and expansion over the past 10 years to those Government policies, and I think that the Governments here and at Westminster deserve recognition for helping to create a stronger credit union movement. We can all point our constituents towards them, as they offer a lifeline that may enable them to move on through a difficult period.

Dengys ymchwil yn ddiweddar gan Brifysgol John Moores Lerpwl fod dau undeb credyd o bob tri yn cysylltu eu twf a’u hehangiad dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf â’r polisïau Llywodraeth hynny, a chredaf fod y Llywodraethau yma ac yn San Steffan yn haeddu cydnabyddiaeth am helpu creu mudiad cryfach o undebau credyd. Gallwn i gyd gyfeirio ein hetholwyr atynt, oherwydd maent yn cynnig gwasanaeth allweddol a all eu galluogi i symud ymlaen drwy gyfnod anodd.

The local credit union that serves my constituency was one of the first to set up child trust fund accounts, thanks to Assembly Government support. The child trust fund is an ideal way of teaching young people about savings and encouraging the savings habit through the use of tangible assets. It is a shame, then, that at the last general election I remember the Liberal Democrats’ manifesto planned to scrap the child trust fund. The credit union serving Swansea also operates a range of school initiatives, where the credit union is involved in financial education in primary and secondary schools, as well as encouraging savings. That is an important aspect of the child trust fund work, and work in schools: it encourages savings, and that is the other side of the coin when we talk about financial inclusion, not just lending.

Yr oedd yr undeb credyd lleol sy’n gwasanaethu fy etholaeth i ymhlith y cyntaf i sefydlu cyfrifon cronfa ymddiriedolaeth plant, diolch i gymorth gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad. Mae’r gronfa ymddiriedolaeth plant yn ffordd ddelfrydol i addysgu pobl ifanc am gynilo ac annog arfer cynilo drwy ddefnyddio asedau diriaethol. Mae’n drueni, felly, fod maniffesto’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn yr etholiad cyffredinol diwethaf, fel y cofiaf, wedi bwriadu dileu’r gronfa ymddiriedolaeth plant. Mae’r undeb credyd sy’n gwasanaethu Abertawe hefyd yn gweithredu amrywiaeth o fentrau ysgol, lle bydd yr undeb credyd yn ymwneud ag addysg ariannol mewn ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd, yn ogystal ag annog cynilo. Mae hynny’n agwedd bwysig ar waith y gronfa ymddiriedolaeth plant, a gwaith mewn ysgolion: mae’n annog cynilo, a dyna ochr arall y geiniog pan siaradwn am gynhwysiant ariannol, nid am fenthyca’n unig.

I am conscious of the time, so I will end by saying that, over the past 10 years, we have seen Labour Governments here and elsewhere continue to improve the support systems available for those who are financially excluded, and the recent consultation report continues the tradition of supporting the most vulnerable in these difficult times.

Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r amser, felly, dof i ben drwy ddweud ein bod wedi gweld, dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf, Lywodraethau Llafur yma ac mewn mannau eraill yn parhau i wella’r systemau cefnogi sydd ar gael i bobl sydd wedi’u hallgáu’n ariannol, a bod yr adroddiad ymgynghori diweddar yn parhau’r traddodiad o gefnogi’r rheini sydd fwyaf agored i niwed yn yr amseroedd anodd hyn.

David Lloyd: Nid oes dwywaith bod lefel ddychrynllyd o ddyled bersonol yn ein gwlad. Bu digon o drafod am sut y cyrhaeddom y sefyllfa ariannol ddybryd yr ydym ynddi. Yn awr yr ydym yn sylweddoli oferedd dibynnu ar brisiau tai artiffisial o uchel fel sylfaen i’n heconomi ac i fenthyca. Yn awr yr ydym yn deall pam ei bod yn

David Lloyd: There is no doubt that there is an alarming level of debt in our country. There has been enough talk about how we got into this dire financial situation. Now we realise the futility of relying on artificially high house prices as a foundation for our economy and for borrowing. Now we understand why it is important to regulate

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bwysig rheoli benthyciadau a morgeisi, a pham yr oedd ffin gadarn yn arfer bod rhwng banciau a chymdeithasau adeiladu, a honno bellach wedi mynd ers i bob cymdeithas adeiladu bron geisio dod yn fanc.

borrowing and mortgages, and why there used to be a definite boundary between banks and building societies. That has now disappeared, given that nearly every building society has tried to become a bank.

Felly, beth i’w wneud? O fewn y pethau y gall y Cynulliad eu gwneud, croesawaf y camau cadarnhaol a gymerwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru a Jocelyn Davies yn benodol i greu cynllun achub morgeisi. Mae’r Gweinidog wedi cyhoeddi ei strategaeth cynhwysiant ariannol er mwyn ymgynghori arni, fel y clywsom, ac arhoswn yn eiddgar am y canlyniadau. Teg yw nodi’r gwaith arwrol sy’n mynd rhagddo ar lawr gwlad, yn enwedig yn y sector gwirfoddol gan Gyngor Ar Bopeth a’i rwydwaith o ganolfannau sy’n cynnig cyngor am bopeth, fel y mae’r enw yn ei awgrymu. Dyled bersonol yw’r rheswm pennaf y mae pobl yn cysylltu â’r canolfannau am gyngor y dyddiau hyn.

Therefore, what to do? Within the levers at the Assembly’s disposal, I welcome the great strides taken by the Government of Wales and Jocelyn Davies specifically to create a mortgage rescue scheme. The Minister has published his financial inclusion strategy for consultation, as we have heard, and we eagerly await the responses. It is only fair to note the heroic work undertaken at the grass roots, particularly in the voluntary sector by Citizens Advice and its network of bureaux, offering advice on everything, as its Welsh name suggests. The main reason why people contact the bureaux these days is to seek advice on personal debt.

Wrth longyfarch Gyngor Ar Bopeth ar ei waith arbennig, rhaid nodi cyfraniad eraill yn y maes: undebau credyd, er enghraifft. Yr wyf yn aelod o undeb credyd Plaid Cymru, sy’n cynnig ffordd dda o gynilo a benthyg. Mae ffynonellau eraill, fel ein cynghorau sir, sy’n gallu helpu gyda biliau a dyled, a mudiadau gwirfoddol eraill megis Cristnogion yn erbyn Tlodi, sydd â swyddfa nid nepell o’m swyddfa innau yng nghanol Abertawe. Mae’r mudiad hwnnw’n darparu gwasanaeth arbennig i’r sawl sy’n cysylltu ag ef.

In congratulating Citizens Advice on its exceptional work, I must also comment on the contribution of others in this field, such as the credit unions. I am a member of Plaid Cymru’s credit union, which offers a good way of saving and borrowing. There are other sources, such as our county councils, which can help with bills and debt, and other voluntary organisations, such as Christians Against Poverty, which has an office not far from mine in the centre of Swansea. That organisation provides an excellent service to those who contact it.

Mewn hinsawdd ariannol ddu, mae angen arfogi ein pobl â’r addysg, y gallu a’r wybodaeth i ymdrin ag arian, i osgoi dyledion, a i ganfod cymorth pan fydd pethau’n mynd o chwith.

In this bleak financial climate we need to arm our people with the education, the ability and the knowledge to deal with money, to avoid debt and find assistance when things go awry.

The Minister for Social Justice and Local Government (Brian Gibbons): I am grateful to the Liberal Democrats for giving me this opportunity to outline the action that the Welsh Assembly Government is taking to respond to financial exclusion and overindebtedness.

Y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol (Brian Gibbons): Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol am roi’r cyfle hwn imi amlinellu’r camau y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n eu cymryd i ymateb i allgáu ariannol a gor-ddyled.

As other Members have mentioned, I launched the public consultation on the first financial inclusion strategy for Wales, ‘Taking everyone into account’. As Eleanor

Fel y mae Aelodau eraill wedi sôn, lansiais yr ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus ar strategaeth cynhwysiant ariannol gyntaf Cymru, ‘Mae Pawb yn Cyfrif’. Fel y dywedodd Eleanor yn

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said in her contribution, the strategy addresses a number of key, well established themes, such as promoting access to mainstream financial services, providing affordable credit and saving, offering access to money and debt advice, and helping people to improve their financial skills and maximise their income. Contrary to Eleanor’s claim, action is being taken on every one of those themes. Indeed, the strategy does not lack an action plan; as published, the action plan has 20 pages, with many of the actions outlined already having been taken by the Assembly Government and the UK Government.

ei chyfraniad, mae’r strategaeth yn mynd i’r afael â nifer o themâu allweddol, sefydledig, fel hyrwyddo gallu cael gwasanaethau ariannol prif ffrwd, darparu credyd a chynilo fforddiadwy, cynnig cyngor am arian a dyled, a helpu pobl i wella’u sgiliau ariannol a gwneud y mwyaf o’u hincwm. Yn groes i honiad Eleanor, mae camau’n cael eu cymryd ar bob un o’r themâu hynny. Yn wir, nid oes diffyg cynllun gweithredu yn y strategaeth: fel y’i cyhoeddwyd, mae’r cynllun gweithredu yn cynnwys 20 tudalen, ac mae nifer o’r camau a amlinellwyd wedi’u cymryd eisoes gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad a Llywodraeth y DU.

Huw Lewis and Val Lloyd will be pleased to hear that I announced a project worth £750,000 this week to extend and strengthen the credit unions in Wales. Working with convergence funding and match funding from the Welsh Assembly Government, it is hoped that that significant boost to the credit union movement will expand its capacity. As that particular round of funding runs out, we hope to develop work on the credit union movement based on recently commissioned research from the University of Wales Institute, Cardiff.

Bydd Huw Lewis a Val Lloyd yn falch o glywed fy mod wedi cyhoeddi prosiect gwerth £750,000 yr wythnos hon i ymestyn a chryfhau’r undebau credyd yng Nghymru. Gan weithio gyda chyllid cydgyfeirio ac arian cyfatebol gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, y gobaith yw y bydd hwb sylweddol i’r mudiad undeb credyd yn ehangu ei allu. Wrth i’r cylch penodol hwnnw o gyllid ddod i ben, gobeithiwn ddatblygu gwaith ar y mudiad undebau credyd sy’n seiliedig ar ymchwil a gomisiynwyd yn ddiweddar gan Athrofa Prifysgol Cymru, Caerdydd.

As an Assembly Government, we actively support the credit union movement. It is an important, historic achievement of which the One Wales Government can rightly be proud that we now have universal credit union coverage across Wales, which never existed previously. When I was in Eleanor’s region of North Wales just last week, I saw concrete evidence of what was happening there. As Huw Lewis said, the first Welsh credit union current account has been launched, and I was pleased to see colleagues from north Wales there. I was equally pleased to see, on the wall of the credit union in Llandudno Junction, a reference to the child trust fund and the fact that credit unions are able to accept child trust fund deposits—another achievement supported by this Welsh Assembly Government.

Fel Llywodraeth Cynulliad, yr ydym wrthi’n cefnogi’r mudiad undebau credyd. Mae’n llwyddiant hanesyddol, pwysig y gall Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un ymfalchïo’n briodol ynddo, gan fod gennym bellach undebau credyd cyffredinol ledled Cymru, nad oeddent ar gael erioed o’r blaen. Pan oeddwn yn rhanbarth Eleanor yn y Gogledd yr wythnos ddiwethaf, gwelais dystiolaeth gadarn o’r hyn a oedd yn digwydd yno. Fel y dywedodd Huw Lewis, mae cyfrif cyfredol undeb credyd cyntaf Cymru wedi’i lansio, ac yr oeddwn yn falch gweld cyd-Aelodau o’r gogledd yno. Yr oeddwn lawn mor falch gweld cyfeiriad ar wal yr undeb credyd yng Nghyffordd Llandudno at y gronfa ymddiriedolaeth plant a’r ffaith fod undebau credyd yn gallu derbyn arian y gronfa ymddiriedolaeth plant ar gadw—llwyddiant arall a gefnogwyd gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru.

5.30 p.m.

It is through such actions as diversifying the Drwy weithredoedd fel arallgyfeirio

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activities of credit unions—actions that we are actively promoting—that people will be better able to respond to the current economic crisis.

gweithgareddau undebau credyd—gweithredoedd yr ydym yn eu hyrwyddo—y bydd pobl mewn sefyllfa well i ymateb i’r argyfwng economaidd presennol.

We recognise the importance of post offices, and we have provided post offices with significant business rate relief over the past 12 months. In January of this year, we re-launched a refocused post office diversification fund. We are asking for submissions on the sort of services that could be delivered through post offices to help to tackle issues such as financial exclusion and debt.

Yr ydym yn derbyn bod swyddfeydd post yn bwysig, ac yr ydym wedi darparu rhyddhad sylweddol o ardrethi busnes i swyddfeydd post dros y 12 mis diwethaf. Ym mis Ionawr eleni ail-lansiwyd cronfa arallgyfeirio swyddfeydd post genym gyda ffocws newydd. Yr ydym yn gofyn am sylwadau am y math o wasanaethau y gellid eu darparu drwy swyddfeydd post i helpu mynd i’r afael â phroblemau fel allgáu ariannol a dyled.

Eleanor Burnham: Would it not be better, in that case, not to shut any post offices? What you are talking about is all very well for people who live near post offices, but what about the poor people whose local post offices have shut?

Eleanor Burnham: Os felly, oni fyddai’n well peidio â chau swyddfeydd post? Mae’r hyn yr ydych yn sôn amdano yn iawn i bobl sy’n byw’n agos at swyddfeydd post, ond beth am y bobl dlawd y mae eu swyddfeydd post lleol wedi cau?

Brian Gibbons: I do not think that the Assembly Government’s record on that can be criticised. We have made our view on that quite clear.

Brian Gibbons: Ni chredaf y gellir beirniadu record Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar hynny. Yr ydym wedi mynegi ein barn am hynny’n gwbl glir.

Over the past year, we have worked with the UK Government to put in place a team of financial inclusion champions who are working across Wales. We are also working with the UK Government on the all-Wales illegal money-lending unit to tackle the loan sharks that many of the contributions referred to. I am also very pleased that my colleagues in the London Government have been able to make available an additional £10 million, announced in the pre-budget statement, for Citizens Advice bureaux across England and Wales. As we speak, the decisions on how that money will be allocated to bureaux across both countries are being made public. This will complement the 36 face-to-face debt advisers that the UK Government has already supported in Wales.

Dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, yr ydym wedi cydweithio â Llywodraeth y DU i sefydlu tîm o hyrwyddwyr cynhwysiant ariannol sy’n gweithio ledled Cymru. Yr ydym hefyd yn cydweithio â Llywodraeth y DU ar yr uned i Gymru gyfan ar fenthyca arian yn anghyfreithlon i ddelio â’r benthycwyr arian didrwydded y cyfeiriwyd atynt mewn nifer o’r cyfraniadau. Yr wyf hefyd yn falch iawn fod fy nghymheiriaid yn Llywodraeth Llundain wedi gallu darparu £10 miliwn yn ychwanegol, a gyhoeddwyd yn y datganiad rhag-gyllidebol, ar gyfer canolfannau Cyngor Ar Bopeth ledled Cymru a Lloegr. Mae’r penderfyniadau sut y caiff yr arian hwnnw ei ddyrannu i ganolfannau ar draws y ddwy wlad yn cael eu cyhoeddi ar hyn o bryd. Bydd hyn yn ategu’r 36 o gynghorwyr dyled wyneb yn wyneb y mae Llywodraeth y DU eisoes wedi eu cefnogi yng Nghymru.

Reference has been made to the importance of financial literacy. In September last year we launched the first financial literacy curriculum. I had an opportunity to see that in operation in Whitchurch High School only on Monday. I was very pleased to see how the

Cyfeiriwyd at bwysigrwydd llythrennedd ariannol. Ym mis Medi y llynedd lawnsiwyd y cwricwlwm cyntaf gennym ar gyfer llythrennedd ariannol. Cefais gyfle i weld hwnnw ar waith yn Ysgol Uwchradd yr Eglwys Newydd ddydd Llun diwethaf. Yr

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pupils were interacting with it. However, on the point made by Mark Isherwood about whether the mechanisms are effective, we set up the Welsh unit for financial education to ensure that the type of education on financial literacy that children are receiving is totally fit for purpose and able to meet the challenges of the future.

oeddwn yn falch iawn gweld sut yr oedd y disgyblion yn rhyngweithio ag ef. Fodd bynnag, o ran y pwynt a wnaeth Mark Isherwood ynghylch a yw’r mecanweithiau’n effeithiol, sefydlwyd uned addysg ariannol Cymru gennym i sicrhau bod y math o addysg llythrennedd ariannol y mae plant yn ei gael yn gwbl addas a’i fod yn gallu ateb heriau’r dyfodol.

In north Wales, I had an opportunity to see the support given to the Barnardo’s young carers’ project in Flintshire, something that I am sure Eleanor would agree is welcome action on the part of this Assembly Government.

Yn y gogledd, cefais gyfle i weld y cymorth a roddir i brosiect gofalwyr ifanc Barnardo’s yn sir y Fflint, sy’n rhywbeth yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunai Eleanor ei fod yn weithred dderbyniol gan y Llywodraeth Cynulliad hon.

There is not time for me to deal with all of the points made. However, I wish to talk finally about the work that we are doing to promote benefit uptake. We already have a well established Better Advice: Better Health scheme operating across the NHS in Wales, but in April last year, we launched our £1 million council tax benefit uptake programme to help people to avail themselves of the £100 million of benefits that go unclaimed every year in Wales. Earlier this year, we gave details of a programme, with funding of £0.5 million over the next two years, to promote benefit uptake for families with disabled children.

Nid oes gennyf ddigon o amser i ddelio â’r holl bwyntiau a wnaethpwyd. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn sôn yn olaf am ein gwaith i annog pobl i fanteisio ar fudd-daliadau. Mae gennym gynllun sydd eisoes wedi hen sefydlu o’r enw Cyngor Da: Iechyd Da sy’n gweithredu ar draws y GIG yng Nghymru. Ond ym mis Ebrill y llynedd lawnsiwyd ein rhaglen ar ddefnyddio budd-dal treth gyngor, sy’n werth £1 filiwn, i helpu pobl i fanteisio ar y £100 miliwn o fudd-daliadau nad ydynt yn cael eu hawlio bob blwyddyn yng Nghymru. Yn gynharach eleni, rhoesom fanylion rhaglen, gyda chyllid o £0.5 miliwn dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf, i annog teuluoedd sydd â phlant anabl i fanteisio ar fudd-daliadau.

Nick Ramsay: You have just mentioned the Better Advice: Better Health scheme. In some cases, the amount of funding going to that has been frozen since 2002, has it not? Do you anticipate any increase in that funding to help to solve the problems that we were talking about?

Nick Ramsay: Yr ydych newydd sôn am y cynllun Cyngor Da: Iechyd Da. Mewn rhai achosion, mae maint y cyllid ar gyfer hynny wedi’i rewi er 2002, onid yw? A ydych yn rhagweld y bydd unrhyw gynnydd yn y cyllid hwnnw i helpu datrys y problemau yr oeddem yn sôn amdanynt?

Brian Gibbons: It has been frozen, but, as I said, we have also introduced an extra £1 million funding for promoting council tax benefit uptake and £0.5 million for families with children with disabilities. Taking that into account, the amount of money going into benefit advice in Wales has been substantially increased.

Brian Gibbons: Mae wedi’i rewi, ond, fel y dywedais, yr ydym hefyd wedi cyflwyno cyllid ychwanegol o £1 filiwn i annog pobl i ddefnyddio budd-dal treth gyngor a £0.5 miliwn i deuluoedd sydd â phlant ag anableddau. Gan gyfrif hynny, mae maint yr arian sy’n cael ei roi i gyngor ar fudd-daliadau yng Nghymru wedi’i gynyddu’n sylweddol.

We are also taking forward a wide range of programmes to tackle these issues. The

Yr ydym hefyd yn hyrwyddo ystod eang o raglenni i ddelio â’r materion hyn. Mae’r

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mortgage debt relief scheme, which my colleague Jocelyn Davies is taking forward, is one example. That fund has been increased on two occasions in the past six months. Colleagues will also be aware that Jane Davidson, as the Minister with responsibility for energy, is also looking at the home energy efficiency scheme to ensure that it is more fit for purpose and more specifically targeted at fuel poverty, rather than purely on energy sustainability.

cynllun cymorth ar gyfer dyledion morgais, sy’n cael ei hyrwyddo gan fy nghyd-Aelod Jocelyn Davies, yn un enghraifft. Mae’r gronfa honno wedi’i chynyddu ddwywaith yn y chwe mis diwethaf. Bydd cyd-Aelodau’n gwybod hefyd fod Jane Davidson, fel y Gweinidog sydd â chyfrifoldeb dros ynni, hefyd yn edrych ar y cynllun effeithlonrwydd ynni cartref i sicrhau ei fod yn fwy addas ac yn wedi’i dargedu’n fwy penodol ar dlodi tanwydd, yn hytrach nag ar gynaliadwyedd ynni’n unig.

Therefore, in conclusion, the Welsh Assembly Government is taking a wide range of action to address the debt faced by people in Wales. We do not take the view that if it is not hurting, it is not working. Our duty is to stand by people in these difficult circumstances and provide them with a range of support to allow them to survive the present economic downturn.

Felly, i gloi, mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn cymryd amrywiol gamau i ddelio â’r ddyled sy’n wynebu pobl yng Nghymru. Nid ydym o’r farn nad yw’n gweithio os nad yw’n brifo. Ein dyletswydd ni yw bod yn gefn i bobl mewn amgylchiadau anodd o’r fath a rhoi amrywiaeth o fathau o gymorth iddynt fel y gallant fyw drwy’r dirywiad economaidd presennol.

The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats (Kirsty Williams): I begin by thanking all of my colleagues in the Chamber this afternoon for their contributions to the debate. Undoubtedly, as Mohammad Asghar said, we face a world economic crisis, but one factor that has affected the ability of Britain and Wales to respond to the crisis, and which has aggravated the crisis in the United Kingdom, is the high level of indebtedness that many Welsh and British families face. For the first time in my 10 years as an Assembly Member, I am regularly dealing now with constituents with repossession problems. That demonstrates that, as times become difficult for families, and as people lose their jobs, their ability to respond to the crisis is undermined by the fact that they are overstretched and have relied upon high house prices to sustain their standard of living. Now that things are tough and they may be in danger of losing their jobs, they have no savings to fall back on and, instead, find themselves trying to service high levels of debt without the wherewithal to do it.

Arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Kirsty Williams): Dechreuaf drwy ddiolch i bob un o’m cyd-Aelodau yn y Siambr y prynhawn yma am eu cyfraniadau i’r ddadl. Yn sicr, fel y dywedodd Mohammad Asghar yr ydym yn wynebu argyfwng economaidd rhyngwladol, ond un ffactor sydd wedi effeithio ar allu Prydain a Chymru i ymateb i’r argyfwng, ac sydd wedi dwysáu’r argyfwng yn y Deyrnas Unedig, yw lefel uchel y ddyled y mae llawer o deuluoedd yng Nghymru a Phrydain yn ei hwynebu. Am y tro cyntaf yn y 10 mlynedd ers imi fod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad, byddaf yn delio’n rheolaidd yn awr ag etholwyr sydd â phroblemau ailfeddiannu. Mae hynny’n dangos, wrth i deuluoedd ddechrau mynd drwy gyfnod anodd, ac wrth i bobl golli eu swyddi, fod eu gallu i ymateb i’r argyfwng yn cael ei danseilio gan y ffaith eu bod mewn gormod o ddyled ac wedi dibynnu ar brisiau tai uchel i gynnal eu safon byw. Gan fod pethau’n mynd yn anodd yn awr a hwythau mewn perygl o bosibl o golli eu swyddi, nid oes ganddynt gynilion wrth gefn, ac yn hytrach cânt eu bod yn ceisio cynnal lefelau uchel o ddyled heb fod ganddynt fodd i wneud hynny.

Many contributors to the debate, including Mark Isherwood, Huw Lewis and Val Lloyd, talked about the issue of support and advice

Soniodd llawer un o’r rhai a gyfrannodd i’r ddadl, gan gynnwys Mark Isherwood, Huw Lewis a Val Lloyd, am fater y cymorth a’r

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for individuals who find themselves in this situation. The Welsh Liberal Democrat motion refers to that, and support from the third sector is particularly important. Many people have talked about Citizens Advice and voluntary organisations within their constituencies that can assist people who find themselves in this situation. However, the reality is that many third sector organisations are looking at potential cuts in their budgets, particularly from local authorities. Legal services grants are being reviewed, and that could, potentially, destabilise existing advice services. The ability of these organisations to raise funds from the private sector is also diminished.

cyngor a roddir i unigolion sydd yn y sefyllfa hon. Mae cynnig Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn cyfeirio at hynny, ac mae cymorth gan y trydydd sector yn neilltuol o bwysig. Mae nnifer wedi sôn am Gyngor Ar Bopeth a chyrff gwirfoddol yn eu hetholaethau sy’n gallu helpu pobl sydd yn y sefyllfa hon. Er hynny, y gwir amdani yw bod llawer o gyrff y trydydd sector yn edrych ar doriadau posibl yn eu cyllidebau, yn enwedig gan awdurdodau lleol. Mae grantiau gwasanaethau cyfreithiol yn cael eu hadolygu, a gallai hynny ddadsefydlogi gwasanaethau cynghori sy’n bod yn awr. Mae gallu’r cyrff hyn i godi arian o’r sector preifat hefyd yn llai.

Darren Millar: As well as the issue of cuts by local authorities, there are cuts in donations from individual donors. The cross-party group on faith recently received presentations from Christians Against Poverty, an organisation that is helping to tackle the debt crisis exclusively with donations from individuals who attend churches. The ability of people to give during these difficult economic times is also affected. Would you urge the Government to encourage people not to stop giving to these organisations at such times of crisis?

Darren Millar: Yn ogystal â mater y toriadau gan awdurdodau lleol, mae toriadau mewn rhoddion gan roddwyr unigol. Cafodd y grŵp trawsbleidiol ar grefydd gyflwyniadau’n ddiweddar gan Christians Against Poverty, corff sy’n helpu mynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng dyled gan ddefnyddio’n unig roddion gan unigolion sy’n mynychu eglwysi. Mae effaith hefyd ar allu pobl i roi yn ystod y cyfnod economaidd anodd hwn. A fyddech yn annog y Llywodraeth i gymell pobl i beidio ag atal eu rhoddion i’r cyrff hyn mewn cyfnodau o argyfwng o’r fath?

Kirsty Williams: You are right, Darren. However, it is not just individuals who find it more difficult to contribute; you will see that the ability of companies to contribute to local charities is severely curtailed at present. Therefore, organisations such as the Brecon Advice Centre are facing a double whammy, with the statutory sector and individuals or private companies not giving them funds.

Kirsty Williams: Yr ydych yn iawn, Darren. Fodd bynnag, nid unigolion yn unig sy’n ei chael yn anos cyfrannu; gwelwch fod gallu cwmnïau i gyfrannu at elusennau lleol yn llai o lawer ar hyn o bryd. Felly, mae cyrff fel Canolfan Gynghori Aberhonddu yn wynebu ergyd ddwbl, gan nad yw’r sector statudol nac unigolion neu gwmnïau preifat yn rhoi arian iddynt.

In his thoughtful contribution today, Huw Lewis talked about the role of credit unions in helping to defend people against the sharp practices of those who look to profit out of other people’s misery. The Government is right in saying that much has been done to increase the profile of credit unions and the services that they have on offer. Those credit unions are still only reaching a relatively limited number of the population, and they need more help to market their services and to develop the volunteer base to reach more people.

Yn ei gyfraniad meddylgar heddiw, soniodd Huw Lewis am ran undebau credyd wrth helpu amddiffyn pobl rhag ymddygiad amheus y rheini sy’n ceisio elwa o ddioddefaint pobl eraill. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn iawn wrth ddweud bod llawer wedi’i wneud i dynnu sylw at undebau credyd a’r gwasanaethau y maent yn eu cynnig. Nid yw’r undebau credyd hynny ond yn cyrraedd nifer cymharol gyfyngedig o’r boblogaeth o hyd, ac mae arnynt angen mwy o gymorth i farchnata’u gwasanaethau a datblygu sylfaen ddigonol o wirfoddolwyr i gyrraedd mwy o bobl.

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I do not know, Oscar, whether or not politicians in London are senior to us. You kept referring to them as our senior colleagues, but I do not accept that premise. However, you are right in saying that they need to get a grip on the banking sector, which is something that Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown are continually failing to do. We have lent the banks millions and billions of pounds and they need to repay what the Government has done for them by treating their customers and individuals more fairly than the current situation.

Ni wn i, Oscar, a yw gwleidyddion yn Llundain yn uwch na ni ai peidio. Yr oeddech yn cyfeirio atynt o hyd fel ein huwch gydweithwyr, ond nid wyf yn derbyn y rhagosodiad hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, yr ydych yn iawn wrth ddweud bod angen iddynt gydio yn y sector bancio, sef rhywbeth y mae Alistair Darling a Gordon Brown yn methu’n barhaus â’i wneud. Yr ydym wedi benthyca miliynau a biliynau o bunnoedd i’r banciau ac mae angen iddynt dalu’n ôl am yr hyn y mae’r Llywodraeth wedi’i wneud drostynt drwy drin eu cwsmeriaid ac unigolion yn decach nag a wneir yn awr.

5.40 p.m.

As Jenny Randerson pointed out, indebtedness affects a whole cross-section of Welsh society; no-one is exempt from the difficulties that are facing us at the moment. That is why we are disappointed by the Government’s response to date. We believe that levels of personal debt should have been addressed as a matter of urgency. In November 2007, the Government launched its first financial inclusion framework consultation, saying that a strategy and policy would arise from that. It has been years in the making. This week’s launch was little more than a retread of what the Minister first announced in 2007. Little has changed in the five key points that he highlighted, and the consultation that will come out in May will receive responses from the very same people who responded to the first consultation in 2007.

Fel yr eglurodd Jenny Randerson, mae dyled yn effeithio ar drawstoriad eang o gymdeithas yng Nghymru; nid oes neb yn cael ei eithrio o’r anawsterau sy’n ein hwynebu ar hyn o bryd. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi ein siomi gan ymateb y Llywodraeth hyd yn hyn. Credwn y dylid bod wedi delio â lefelau dyled bersonol fel mater brys. Ym mis Tachwedd 2007, lawnsiodd y Llywodraeth ei hymgynghoriad cyntaf ar y fframwaith cynhwysiant ariannol, gan ddweud y byddai strategaeth a pholisi’n deillio o hynny. Mae wedi bod ar y gweill ers blynyddoedd. Nid oedd y lawnsio yr wythnos hon yn fawr mwy nag ailadrodd yr hyn a gyhoeddodd y Gweinidog yn gyntaf yn 2007. Nid oes fawr ddim wedi newid yn y pum pwynt allweddol y tynnodd sylw atynt, a bydd yr ymgynghoriad a gyhoeddir ym mis Mai yn cael ymatebion gan yr union un bobl a ymatebodd i’r ymgynghoriad cyntaf yn 2007.

I am afraid, Minister, that your reaction to this particular aspect of the credit crunch belies the attitude taken by the Government as a whole. We could have been doing something about this in 2008. We could have been laying the foundations of a strategy that could respond to the difficulties that people face now, at the height of the credit crunch; instead, we are sending out another consultation paper. The only comfort for the people who are losing their homes during this crisis is that they could, perhaps, build a new one with the paper that is coming out of the Government and this Minister’s department.

Mae arnaf ofn, Weinidog, fod eich ymateb i’r agwedd benodol hon ar y wasgfa gredyd yn mynd yn groes i ymagwedd y Llywodraeth yn ei chyfanrwydd. Gallasem wneud rhywbeth am hyn yn 2008. Gallasem osod y sylfeini ar gyfer strategaeth a allai ymateb i’r trafferthion y mae pobl yn eu hwynebu’n awr, yn anterth y wasgfa gredyd; yn lle hynny, yr ydym yn dosbarthu papur ymgynghori arall. Yr unig gysur i’r bobl sy’n colli eu cartrefi yn ystod yr argyfwng hwn yw y gallent adeiladu un newydd, efallai, â’r papur sy’n dod oddi wrth y Llywodraeth ac o adran y Gweinidog hwn. Mae’r papur

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That paper is coming out instead of actual policies that people so desperately need at this time.

hwnnw’n dod allan yn lle polisïau gwirioneddol y mae ar bobl eu hangen yn daer ar hyn o bryd.

We have a huge amount to learn from the situation in which we find ourselves, and I hope that the latest in a long line of consultations will finally lead to the Government taking some proactive steps in this area. We can no longer afford to respond to consultation documents; we need the Government to act on them.

Mae gennym lawer iawn i’w ddysgu o’r sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi, a gobeithio y bydd y diweddaraf mewn cyfres hir o ymgynghoriadau’n arwain o’r diwedd at gymryd rhai camau rhagweithiol gan y Llywodraeth yn y maes hwn. Ni allwn fforddio ymateb i ddogfennau ymgynghori bellach; mae angen i’r Llywodraeth weithredu arnynt.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is that amendment 1 be agreed. Is there any objection? I see that there is not. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, amendment 1 is therefore agreed.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw bod gwelliant 1 yn cael ei dderbyn. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, caiff gwelliant 1 ei dderbyn.

Derbyniwyd gwelliant 1.Amendment 1 carried.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is that amendment 2 be agreed. Is there any objection? I see that there is not. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, amendment 2 is therefore agreed.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw bod gwelliant 2 yn cael ei dderbyn. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, caiff gwelliant 1 ei dderbyn.

Derbyniwyd gwelliant 2.Amendment 2 carried.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is that the motion as amended be agreed. Is there any objection? I will take silence as agreement; is there any objection? I see that there is. In future, you will need to speak up. Therefore, the vote will be deferred until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw bod y cynnig fel y’i diwygiwyd yn cael ei dderbyn. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Byddaf yn cymryd yn ganiataol bod tawelwch yn golygu cydsyniad; a oes gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf fod. Yn y dyfodol, bydd gofyn ichi siarad yn uwch. Felly, gohiriwn y bleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.Votes deferred until voting time.

Cyfnod PleidleisioVoting Time

The Deputy Presiding Officer: It was agreed that voting time would be at 5 p.m., but we are past that time. Therefore, does any Member wish for the bell to be rung? I see that no Member does.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Cytunwyd y byddai’r cyfnod pleidleisio am 5 p.m., ond mae’r amser hwnnw wedi mynd heibio. Felly, a oes unrhyw Aelod yn dymuno i’r gloch gael ei chanu? Gwelaf nad oes.

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Cynnig NDM4115: O blaid 14, Ymatal 1, Yn erbyn 31.Motion NDM4115: For 14, Abstain 1, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJames, IreneJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriSargeant, CarlThomas, Rhodri GlynWood, Leanne

Ymataliodd yr Aelod canlynol:The following Member abstained:

Cairns, Alun

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.Motion defeated.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4129: O blaid 31, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 14.Amendment 1 to NDM4129: For 31, Abstain 0, Against 14.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, Lorraine

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, Nick

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Chapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJames, IreneJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriSargeant, CarlThomas, Rhodri GlynWood, Leanne

Burnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment carried.

Gwelliant 2 i NDM4129: O blaid 36, Ymatal 9, Yn erbyn 0.Amendment 2 to NDM4129: For 36, Abstain 9, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineBates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, Lesley

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Hart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJames, IreneJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRanderson, JennySargeant, CarlThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, KirstyWood, Leanne

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol:The following Members abstained:

Bourne, NickBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenRamsay, NickWilliams, Brynle

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment carried.

Gwelliant 3 i NDM4129: O blaid 14, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 31.Amendment 3 to NDM4129: For 14, Abstain 0, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, Brynle

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, John

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Williams, Kirsty Griffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJames, IreneJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriSargeant, CarlThomas, Rhodri GlynWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment defeated.

Gwelliant 4 i NDM4129: O blaid 14, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 31.Amendment 4 to NDM4129: For 14, Abstain 0, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJames, IreneJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, Sandy

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Morgan, RhodriSargeant, CarlThomas, Rhodri GlynWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment defeated.

Gwelliant 5 i NDM4129: O blaid 14, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 31.Amendment 5 to NDM4129: For 14, Abstain 0, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJames, IreneJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriSargeant, CarlThomas, Rhodri GlynWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment defeated.

Motion NDM4129 as amended: that Cynnig NDM4129 fel y’i diwygiwyd: bod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. notes that the Welsh Assembly Government recognises the budgetary challenges facing

1. yn nodi bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn cydnabod yr heriau cyllidebol sy’n

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further education; wynebu addysg bellach;

2. believes that investment in the further education sector is particularly important during an economic recession when many people seek to retrain or improve their existing skills;

2. yn credu bod buddsoddi yn y sector addysg bellach yn arbennig o bwysig yn ystod dirwasgiad economaidd pan fydd nifer o bobl yn ceisio ailhyfforddi neu wella eu sgiliau;

3. welcomes the recent Welsh Assembly Government announcement on additional funding for apprenticeships and ProAct.

3. yn croesawu’r cyhoeddiad a wnaed yn ddiweddar gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ynghylch cyllid ychwanegol ar gyfer prentisiaethau ac ar gyfer y rhaglen ProAct.

Cynnig NDM4129 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 40, Ymatal 5, Yn erbyn 0.Motion NDM4129 as amended: For 40, Abstain 5, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineBourne, NickBurns, AngelaChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynDavies, PaulEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneIsherwood, MarkJames, IreneJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMelding, DavidMewies, SandyMillar, DarrenMorgan, RhodriRamsay, Nick

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Sargeant, CarlThomas, Rhodri GlynWilliams, BrynleWood, Leanne

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol:The following Members abstained:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorRanderson, JennyWilliams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y cynnig fel y’i diwygiwyd.Motion as amended carried.

Motion NDM4130 as amended: that Cynnig NDM4130 fel y’i diwygiwyd: bod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. notes that, as the country enters recession, personal debt remains at an alarming level; and

1. yn nodi, wrth i’r wlad fynd i ddirwasgiad, bod dyledion personol yn dal i fod ar lefel ddychrynllyd o uchel; a

2. awaits the publication of the Welsh Assembly Government’s financial inclusion strategy;

2. yn aros i strategaeth Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar gynhwysiant ariannol gael ei chyhoeddi;

3. recognises the key role that banks, building societies and other lending institutions, including credit unions, must play in tackling the debt crisis.

3. yn cydnabod y swyddogaeth allweddol y mae’n rhaid i fanciau, cymdeithasau adeiladu a sefydliadau benthyg eraill, gan gynnwys undebau credyd, ei chwarae wrth fynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng dyledion.

Cynnig NDM3140 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 31, Ymatal 12, Yn erbyn 1.Motion NDM3140 as amended: For 31, Abstain 12, Against 1.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelod canlynol yn erbyn:The following Member voted against:

Davidson, JaneSargeant, CarlJones, CarwynHart, EdwinaMorgan, RhodriHutt, JaneDavies, AndrewGibbons, BrianJones, Helen MaryJones, GarethJones, ElinJones, Ieuan WynDavies, JocelynJones, Ann

Isherwood, Mark

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Gregory, JaniceLloyd, ValMewies, SandyAndrews, LeightonGriffiths, JohnGraham, WilliamFranks, ChrisWood, LeanneThomas, Rhodri GlynEvans, NerysLloyd, DavidAsghar, MohammadCuthbert, JeffLewis, HuwChapman, ChristineGriffiths, LesleyBarrett, LorraineJames, Irene

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol:The following Members abstained:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y cynnig NDM3140 fel y’i diwygiwyd.Motion NDM3140 as amended carried.

Dadl FerShort Debate

Cymraeg Ail Iaith: Gweledigaeth, Tocenistiaeth a Methiant?Welsh Second Language: Vision, Tokenism and Failure?

Gareth Jones: Yr wyf wedi dewis siarad am ddysgu Cymraeg fel ail iaith yn y ddadl fer heddiw er mwyn tynnu sylw at ddifrifoldeb y sefyllfa mewn nifer o ysgolion ledled Cymru, ac at yr angen i godi safonau. Mae teitl fy araith—gweledigaeth, tocenistiaeth a methiant—yn adlewyrchu’r gwahanol nodweddion sy’n amlwg mewn dysgu Cymraeg fel ail iaith. Yn sicr, mae gweledigaeth: gweledigaeth sy’n tanio athrawon Cymraeg mewn ysgolion ledled

Gareth Jones: I have chosen the teaching of Welsh as a second language as my topic for my short debate today, to draw attention to the severity of the situation in many schools across Wales, and to the need to raise standards. The title of my debate—vision, tokenism and failure—reflects the various aspects of teaching Welsh as a second language. There is certainly vision: a vision that inspires Welsh teachers in schools throughout Wales, many of whom work

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Cymru, a llawer iawn ohonynt yn creu gwyrthiau o dan amgylchiadau anodd.

miracles under difficult circumstances.

Fodd bynnag, nid ar chwarae bach yr wyf wedi dewis y geiriau ‘tocenistiaeth’ a ‘methiant’ ychwaith. Y gwir amdani yw bod diffygion difrifol yn y ffordd y dysgir y Gymraeg yn ein hysgolion. Nid y fi yn unig sy’n datgan pryder am y sefyllfa. Un rheswm dros ddewis tynnu sylw at y pwnc yr wythnos hon oedd y ffaith fod adroddiad Estyn, arolygiaeth Ei Mawrhydi, wedi cadarnhau llawer o f’amheuon pan gafodd ei gyhoeddi’r wythnos diwethaf. Gadewch inni edrych ar rai o’r pethau sy’n cael eu dweud yn ‘Adroddiad Blynyddol Prif Arolygydd Ei Mawrhydi dros Addysg a Hyfforddiant yng Nghymru 2007-2008’.

However, my decision to use the words ‘tokenism’ and ‘failure’ was not taken lightly either. The fact of the matter is that there are serious shortcomings in the way the Welsh language is taught in our schools. I am not the only one to voice concerns about the situation. One reason I have chosen to highlight this topic this week is because Estyn, Her Majesty’s inspectorate, confirmed many of my suspicions when it published its report last week. Let us look at some of the things that are said in ‘The Annual Report of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Education and Training in Wales 2007-2008’.

Dywed yr adroddiad: mae safonau dwyieithrwydd disgyblion yn is nag yn y medrau allweddol eraill; mae’r addysgu mewn Cymraeg fel ail iaith yn waeth o lawer na phynciau eraill, ac mae’n waeth yn awr nag yn y gorffennol; ac mae 84 y cant o ddisgyblion uwchradd yng Nghymru yn astudio Cymraeg fel ail iaith, gyda nifer y disgyblion sy’n astudio’r cwrs TGAU llawn mewn ail iaith yn dal i ostwng. Hoffwn bwysleisio’r pwynt hwnnw, oherwydd yr ydym yn sôn am boblogaeth uwchradd o 138,000 o blant ar hyn o bryd.

The report states that: the standards of bilingualism among pupils is lower than that in other key skills; the teaching of Welsh as a second language is far weaker than is the case with other subjects, and it is worse now than was the case in the past; and 84 per cent of secondary school pupils in Wales study Welsh as a second language, with the number of pupils studying the full GCSE second language course continuing to decline. I wish to emphasise that point, given that we are talking about a population of 138,000 of secondary school pupils at the moment.

Dywed yr adroddiad ymhellach: adroddwyd y llynedd fod rhai diffygion pwysig mewn bron i hanner y gwaith; eleni mae diffygion pwysig mewn dwy ran o dair o waith disgyblion mewn Cymraeg fel ail iaith. Mae fy ffigurau yn amcangyfrif bod hynny’n effeithio ar 91,000 o ddisgyblion yn ein hysgolion.

The report goes on to state that: it was reported last year that there were serious shortcomings in almost half the work; this year, there are serious shortcomings in two thirds of the work of pupils studying second-language Welsh. According to my figures, I estimate that thst affects 91,000 pupils in our schools.

Mae’r rhain yn ganfyddiadau difrifol o fethiant ac yn codi cwestiynau difrifol am ein gallu fel Cynulliad i wireddu ein gweledigaeth o Gymru ddwyieithog, fel y’i hamlinellir yn ‘Iaith Pawb’. Mae’r weledigaeth yn mynd yn ôl i ddyddiau ymhell cyn sefydlu’r Cynulliad. Mae’n deillio o’r ymgyrch lwyddiannus i gynnwys dysgu Cymraeg fel un o bynciau craidd y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol yng Nghymru o Fôn i Fynwy. Fel rhywun sy’n falch o osod y Gymraeg uwchlaw buddiannau pleidiol, yr wyf yn cydnabod y gwaith pwysig a wnaed

These findings identify serious failings and raise serious questions about our ability as an Assembly to realise our vision of having a bilingual Wales, as outlined in ‘Iaith Pawb’. That vision goes back to the days long before establishing the Assembly. It stems from the successful campaign to include the teaching of Welsh as a core subject in the national curriculum in Wales and throughout Wales. As someone who is proud to place the interests of the Welsh language above party-political matters, I recognise the important work done by the Under-Secretary of State

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gan Is-ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ar y pryd, Syr Wyn Roberts, wrth sicrhau hyn. Yr oedd cam o’r fath yn gwbl angenrheidiol i gyflawni’r nod allweddol o wneud ein pobl yn gwbl ddwyieithog; nod sydd wedi ei ymgorffori fel un o egwyddorion sylfaenol y Cynulliad.

for Wales at the time, Sir Wyn Roberts, to secure that. Such a step was entirely necessary to achieve the crucial aim of making our people truly bilingual; that objective is enshrined as one of the Assembly’s fundamental principles.

Datblygwyd y sylfeini a osodwyd yn y cyfnod hwn yn nyddiau cynnar y Cynulliad. Gwnaed adolygiad pwysig o sefyllfa’r iaith Gymraeg gan y Pwyllgor Addysg cyn 16 Oed—ac yr oeddwn yn aelod o’r pwyllgor hwnnw ar y pryd. Cafwyd tystiolaeth gan ddisgyblion nad amharodrwydd i ddysgu’r iaith, ond, yn hytrach, brofiadau gwael a diffyg cyfeiriad a chefnogaeth a oedd yn eu dadrithio.

The foundations laid during that time were built upon in the early days of the Assembly. An important review of the state of the Welsh language was carried out by the Pre-16 Education Committee—and I was a member of it at the time. Evidence was given by pupils that it was not their unwillingness to learn the language that was to blame for their disillusionment, rather their bad experiences and a lack of direction and support.

5.50 p.m.

Credaf fod yr amser wedi dod inni holi’n hunain a yw’r gofyn statudol yn ddigonol. Mae’n sicr bod rhai ysgolion yn gwneud yr isafswm posibl er mwyn cydymffurfio â’r gofynion. Yr hyn y mae’r ysgolion yma’n ei wneud yw dewis cwrs byr, cyfyngedig yn y Gymraeg, sy’n anochel yn arwain at statws eilradd i’r iaith yn yr ysgolion hynny. Fel y dywedodd golygydd y Daily Post yn ei erthygl olygyddol yr wythnos diwethaf:

I believe the time has come to ask ourselves whether the statutory requirement is adequate. It is clear that some schools are doing the bare minimum required to comply with the requirements. What those schools are doing is choosing a short, limited course in Welsh, which inevitably leads to the language being seen as having second-class status in those schools. As the editor of the Daily Post said in his editorial last week:

‘Welsh class becoming second class in schools’.

‘Welsh class becoming second class in schools’.

Mewn sefyllfaoedd fel hyn, mae’r staff Cymraeg yn cael eu hynysu, ynghyd â’u disgyblion, fel bod y Gymraeg yn dod yn estron yn yr ysgol yn hytrach nag yn rhan ohoni. Mewn geiriau eraill, er gwaethaf gofynion y cwricwlwm, nid yw’r Gymraeg yn cael ei hystyried yn greiddiol i’r ysgol, ond yn hytrach fel rhyw atodiad mympwyol sy’n isel o ran blaenoriaeth. Mewn gormod o achosion, nid oes gan gyrff llywodraethol ein hysgolion y diddordeb na’r ewyllys i newid a gwella, ac nid oes gan awdurdodau y grym i ymyrryd ac maent yn amharod i herio’r sefyllfa a chasglu gwybodaeth berthnasol.

In such situations, staff teaching Welsh are isolated, along with their pupils, so that the language is seen as being alien in the school rather than a part of it. In other words, despite the requirements of the curriculum, the Welsh language is not considered to be at the heart of the school, but rather an arbitrary afterthought with a pretty low priority. In too many cases, the governing bodies of our schools have neither the interest nor the inclination to change and improve, and authorities do not have the power to intervene, and are unwilling to challenge the status quo or gather the relevant information.

Mae rhai unigolion ac ysgolion yn ceisio’u gorau, ond yn aml mae’r diffyg cefnogaeth yn llesteirio ac yn lladd yr egni a’r ewyllys i lwyddo a dyfalbarhau. Mae pob math o esgusodion yn hwylus ac yn barod iawn—

Some individuals and schools do their best, but all too often the lack of support hampers them and drains their energy and determination to succeed and persevere. All manner of excuses are readily peddled—a

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diffyg adnoddau, diffyg athrawon, diffyg amser, diffyg galw, rhy anodd a rhy drafferthus—ac yn aml mae’r rhain yn ddigon dealladwy. Fodd bynnag, gadewch inni wneud un peth yn glir: pe bai’r diffygion hyn yn cael eu dyfynnu mewn perthynas â’r Saesneg neu fathemateg, byddai’r ysgol o dan fesurau arbennig.

shortage of resources, of teachers, of time, a lack of demand, it is too difficult, or too much trouble—and they are often understandable. However, let us make one thing clear: if those same problems were being cited in relation to the teaching of English or mathematics, the school would be subject to special measures.

Dywedodd Estyn y llynedd mor wael ac anobeithiol oedd y sefyllfa, a gofynnais sawl cwestiwn am y mater. Flwyddyn yn ddiweddarach, ble yr ydym? Fel y dywed Estyn—ac nid myfi—mae’r sefyllfa yn gwaethygu; ond cofiwch, rhan o’r darlun a gawn gan Estyn. Mae’r sefyllfa yn druenus, ac yn gofyn am fesurau arbennig ar frys. Yr unig gorff a all sicrhau newid bellach yw Llywodraeth Cymru. Gadewch inni atgoffa’n hunain o’r hyn sydd gan gytundeb ‘Cymru’n Un’ i’w ddweud.

Last year, Estyn stated how bad and desperate the situation was, and I asked many questions at the time. A year later, where are we? As Estyn says—and not I—the situation is deteriorating; but bear in mind that we get only part of the picture from Estyn. The situation is lamentable, and urgently requires special measures. The only organisation that can ensure change now is the Government of Wales. Let us remind ourselves of what the ‘One Wales’ agreement has to say.

‘Mae’r Gymraeg yn eiddo i bawb yng Nghymru, ac yn rhan o’n treftadaeth, ein hunaniaeth a’r lles cyhoeddus sy’n eiddo i ni i gyd. Byddwn yn gweithio i sicrhau y gall mwy o bobl, yn hen ac yn ifanc, ddysgu Cymraeg a’i helpu i ffynnu fel iaith fyw mewn cymunedau lu ledled Cymru.’

‘The Welsh language belongs to everyone in Wales as part of our common national heritage, identity and public good. We will work to ensure that more people, young and old, can learn Welsh and encourage it to thrive as a language of many communities all over Wales.’

Wrth i ‘Cymru’n Un’ gyfeirio’n benodol at addysg, dywedir hyn.

With specific reference to education, ‘One Wales states the following.

‘Rhaid i blant allu cael y cymorth a’r adnoddau sydd eu hangen arnynt, a dilyn cwricwlwm sy’n ysbrydoli ac yn hyrwyddo cyrhaeddiad.’

‘Children must be able to get the support and resources they need, and follow a curriculum which inspires and encourages achievement.’

Gellir dweud â sicrwydd nad yw hyrwyddo cyrhaeddiad yn rhywbeth sy’n digwydd o safbwynt dysgu Cymraeg fel ail iaith, a rhaid inni weithredu yn ei gylch.

It can be said with some certainty that encouraging achievement does not happen in the teaching of Welsh as a second language, and we must remedy that.

Fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Menter a Dysgu, yr wyf yn benderfynol o wneud rhywbeth i fynd i’r afael â’r sefyllfa, a bellach mae’r pwyllgor wedi sefydlu grŵp rapporteur i’w hadolygu, gyda’r bwriad o lunio adroddiad ac argymhellion yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth unigolion, yn enwedig ein disgyblion. Byddaf yn gwahodd sylwadau am y pwnc amserol yma ledled Cymru’n fuan, ac yn paratoi adroddiad manwl yn y man.

As the Chair of the Enterprise and Learning Committee, I am determined to do something to get to grips with this situation, and the committee has now established a rapporteur group to review it, with the aim of drafting a report and recommendations based on the evidence of individuals, particularly our pupils. I will invite comments on this timely issue from across Wales soon, and in due course I will prepare a detailed report.

Yr wyf am bwysleisio nad cyfrwng i daflu I want to emphasise that this will not be an

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bai fydd hyn—yr ydym ni lle’r ydym ni—ond yn hytrach i adnabod y tir cyffredin a sut y medrwn gymell ein hysgolion, yn gynradd ac uwchradd, eu llywodraethwyr, ein hawdurdodau lleol a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i weddnewid yr hyn sydd angen ei weddnewid. Yr wyf yn gwbl sicr y bydd yn rhaid wrth newid agwedd go sylfaenol. Mae’r sefyllfa fel y mae nid yn unig yn methu ein plant, ond mae’n eu troi yn erbyn y Gymraeg. Mae’r difaterwch ar bob lefel yn hyn o beth yn dorcalonnus ac yn anfoesol.

opportunity to apportion blame. We are where we are. However, we will seek to find common ground and ways of urging our schools, primary and secondary, their governors, our local authorities and the Assembly Government to transform what needs to be transformed. I am convinced that a fairly fundamental change in attitude will be needed. The status quo not only lets down our children, but turns them against the Welsh language. The apathy that exists on all levels over this is heartbreaking and immoral.

Fel y gwyddoch yn iawn, mae enghreifftiau o ddisgyblion sydd wedi mynychu gwersi Cymraeg ar hyd eu gyrfaoedd ysgol—pum mlynedd mewn ysgol gynradd a phum mlynedd arall mewn ysgol uwchradd—ond sy’n methu cyfathrebu yn y Gymraeg o gwbl.

As you well know, there are examples of pupils who have attended Welsh classes throughout their school lives—five years in primary school and another five in secondary school—but who cannot communicate in Welsh at all.

Wrth groesawu’r LCO arfaethedig sy’n rhoi hawl i’r Cynulliad ddeddfu i ddyrchafu statws yr iaith yr wythnos hon, rhaid inni gofio—a dyma oedd geiriau’r Gweinidog ddoe—na all unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth sicrhau dyfodol y Gymraeg os na fydd yr iaith yn cael ei dysgu’n fwy effeithiol i’n plant yn ein hysgolion. Fel y gwyddom, nid fydd yr LCO arfaethedig yn ychwanegu at y niferoedd sy’n siarad y Gymraeg, ond gall weddnewid pethau. Gyda Chymraeg fel ail iaith, gall hynny ychwanegu’n sylweddol at y nifer sy’n siarad yr iaith.

In welcoming the proposed LCO this week that gives the Assembly the right to legislate to enhance the status of the language, we must bear in mind—and those were the words of the Minister yesterday—that no legislation can safeguard the future of the language unless it is taught more effectively to our children in our schools. As we know, the proposed LCO will not increase the number of Welsh speakers, but it could transform the situation. With Welsh as a second language, it could make a significant contribution to the number of Welsh speakers.

Llawn bwysiced â deddfwriaeth yw’r angen i gymell a gwobrwyo. Mae angen ailymweld â’r weledigaeth, ail-lunio ein dyheadau a’n disgwyliadau a chreu awyrgylch lle mae cyd-ddealltwriaeth a chyd-barch o’r hyn ydyw dwyieithrwydd. Mae angen trawsnewidiad o’r diffeithdra negyddol, docenistaidd bresennol i gyfundrefn addysgu ddeinamig, bywiog a hyderus. Efallai ei bod hi’n bryd inni roi’r gorau i wahaniaethu rhwng dysgu cyfrwng Cymraeg a dysgu ail iaith, gan y gellid dadlau nad oes ffin rhyngddynt mewn gwirionedd. Onid datblygiad ieithyddol yw’r hyn yr ydym yn anelu ato?

The need to encourage and reward is just as important as legislation. We need to revisit the vision, re-examine our aspirations and expectations and create an atmosphere in which there is understanding and respect for what bilingualism actually means. We need to transform the negative, tokenistic wasteland that exists and create a dynamic, vigorous and confident education system. It may be time for us to stop differentiating between the teaching through the medium of Welsh and second-language learning, since it could be argued that there is no boundary between them. Is not linguistic development our aim?

Fel y dywed y prif arolygydd, os ydym o ddifrif ynghylch rhoi cyfle gwirioneddol i bob person ifanc brofi treftadaeth ddiwylliannol Cymru, rhaid inni wynebu’r

As the chief inspector states, if we are serious about giving every young person an opportunity to experience the cultural heritage of Wales, we must face this

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her o sicrhau bod pob plentyn yn cael cyfle i ddysgu a defnyddio’r Gymraeg. Dyna’r unig ffordd o gyflawni’r weledigaeth o greu Cymru ddwyieithog. Fel y dywedais mewn papur a baratois i UCAC bedair blynedd yn ôl, pan fydd ysgol neu awdurdod yn methu, cymerir camau eithriadol i’w hadfer. Wrth ymateb i her y prif arolygydd, mae angen i ni fel Cynulliad gydnabod methiant y gyfundrefn addysgol bresennol a chymryd camau eithriadol i wella safon addysg Gymraeg ein plant.

challenge of ensuring that every child has the opportunity to learn and use the Welsh language. That is the only way we will achieve the vision of creating a bilingual Wales. As I stated in a paper which I prepared for UCAC four years ago, when a school or authority fails special measures are taken in order to put things right. In responding to the challenge posed by the chief inspector, we as an Assembly must recognise the failure of the current system and take special measures to improve the standard of teaching Welsh to our children.

Dyna’r cyfan sydd gennyf i’w ddweud am y pwnc hwn, Ddirprwy Lywydd, ond yr wyf yn deall bod Nerys Evans am ddweud gair. Nid wyf wedi cael cais gan neb arall i siarad, ond os yw Eleanor Burnham am wneud cyfraniad, mae croeso iddi wneud hynny.

That is all I have to say on this subject, Deputy Presiding Officer, but I understand that Nerys Evans wishes to contribute. I have not received requests from anyone else, but if Eleanor Burnham wishes to contribute, she is welcome to do so.

Nerys Evans: Mae tystiolaeth cyfrifiadau 1991 a 2001 yn dangos yn glir mai’r gyfundrefn addysg sy’n ysgwyddo’r baich o gynyddu sgiliau iaith pobl Cymru. Mae’r gyfundrefn bresennol yn methu, fel yr ydym wedi clywed gan Gareth. Nid yw dysgu’r Gymraeg fel ail iaith yn llwyddo i greu siaradwyr rhugl. Credaf fod y term ‘ail iaith’ ei hun yn beryglus ac yn creu diffyg hyder ymysg pobl ifanc Cymru. Symud ar hyd y continwwm iaith tuag at ruglder yw’r nod wrth ddysgu Ffrangeg neu Almaeneg yn yr ysgol, ond nid dyna’r nod gyda’r Gymraeg. Yr ydym yn buddsoddi amser ac adnoddau i ddatblygu sgiliau iaith, ond nid yw’r continwwm iaith yn bodoli ac nid yw’r bobl ifanc yn croesi’r bont. Mae nifer fawr o ysgolion yn rhoi dewis i blant i eithrio’u hunain o ddysgu’r Gymraeg, ond, fel y dywedodd Gareth, pe bai ysgolion yn eithrio’u hunain o addysgu mathemateg neu Saesneg, byddai’r Cynulliad hwn yn trafod gosod mesurau arbennig. Yn ôl ymchwil Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg, yr oedd 8,500 o bobl ifanc 15 oed yn honni eu bod yn siarad Cymraeg yn 1991; 10 mlynedd yn ddiweddarach, dim ond tua 5,000 o’r un sampl sy’n honni eu bod yn medru’r iaith. Faint o’r sampl hwnnw a fydd yn parhau’n ddwyieithog erbyn 2011? Cytunaf â phwynt Gareth Jones mai nid rhoi bai yw diben codi’r pwnc, ond ceisio cyfle i gael gwared ar y term ‘ail iaith’ a datblygu sgiliau iaith pobl ifanc er mwyn creu siaradwyr rhugl.

Nerys Evans: The evidence of the 1991 and 2001 censuses shows clearly that the burden of increasing the language skills of the people of Wales falls on the shoulders of the education system. However, that system is failing, as we have heard from Gareth. The teaching of Welsh as a second language is not succeeding in creating fluent Welsh speakers. The term ‘second language’ in itself is dangerous and creates a lack of confidence among young people. The aim with the teaching of French or German in schools is progression along the linguistic continuum towards fluency, but that is not the case with the Welsh language. We invest time and money in the teaching of language skills, but the language continuum does not exist and young people are not moving forward. Many schools give children the choice of opting out of learning Welsh, but, as Gareth said, if schools were to opt out of teaching mathematics or English the Assembly would be considering putting special measures in place. According to research conducted by the Welsh Language Board, 8,500 young people in 1991 claimed to be Welsh speakers; 10 years later, only 5,000 of the same sample claim that they are able to speak the language. How many of that sample will still be bilingual by 2011? I agree with Gareth Jones that apportioning blame is not our aim, but rather to do away with the term ‘second language’ and to develop the language skills of our young people in order to create fluent

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Welsh speakers.

Eleanor Burnham: Diolch, Gareth. Teimlaf fod hyn yn beth doeth iawn a chredaf, yn bersonol, y dylem anelu at fod yn hollol ddwyieithog y dyddiau hyn. Yr ydym yn gwybod am bobl sy’n siarad llawer mwy o ieithoedd—mae bod yn amlieithog yn hollol naturiol ar y cyfandir. Yr wyf yn teimlo’n gryf y dylem ymdrochi plant yn y Saesneg a’r Gymraeg ar hyd eu gyrfa ysgol yng Nghymru. Pan yr oeddwn yn dysgu plant a oedd yn tangyflawni, nid oedd rhai ohonynt mewn ysgolion Saesneg yn gallu siarad Saesneg hyd yn oed ac, yn wir, mewn ysgolion Cymraeg, nid oeddech yn siŵr pa iaith yr oeddent yn ei siarad hanner yr amser. Yr wyf yn teimlo’n gryf fod angen codi safonau addysgu’n gyffredinol a gwneud gwersi’n hwyl er mwyn i bob plentyn allu siarad Cymraeg a Saesneg yn y Gymru ddatganoledig gyfoes.

Eleanor Burnham: Thank you, Gareth. I believe you have presented a cogent case, and I believe, personally, that we should look to be entirely bilingual these days. We know of people who are multilingual, which is quite natural on the continent. I firmly believe that we should immerse children in English and Welsh throughout their educational experience in Wales. I used to teach underachieving children and found that some of the pupils at English schools could not even speak English, and, indeed, I was not quite sure what was being spoken half the time by some of those attending Welsh-medium schools. I feel strongly that we need to raise the standards of teaching generally, and to make lessons fun so that every child learns to speak Welsh and English in the modern devolved Wales.

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Y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau (Jane Hutt): Diolch yn fawr i Gareth, Nerys ac Eleanor am eich cyfraniadau. Yr wyf hefyd yn falch o gael siarad yn y ddadl, gan fy mod am symud ymlaen gyda’r materion pwysig hyn.

The Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills (Jane Hutt): I thank Gareth, Nerys and Eleanor for your contributions. I am also pleased to speak in this debate, as I wish to move forward on these important issues.

The Welsh Assembly Government is fully committed to the goal of ensuring a genuinely bilingual Wales. We envisage a country in which our citizens can live their lives through English, Welsh, or through both languages. Such language choice is an important component in the provision of quality services for all our learners, and we recognise and emphasise those aims in ‘One Wales’ and in ‘The Learning Country: Vision into Action’, which is my department’s publication.

Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi ymrwymo’n llwyr i’r nod o sicrhau Cymru wirioneddol ddwyieithog. Rhagwelwn wlad lle gall ein dinasyddion fyw eu bywydau yn Saesneg, yn Gymraeg, neu drwy gyfrwng y ddwy iaith. Mae dewis ieithyddol o’r fath yn elfen bwysig wrth ddarparu gwasanaethau o safon uchel i bob un o’n dysgwyr, ac yr ydym yn cydnabod ac yn pwysleisio’r nodau hynny yn ‘Cymru’n Un’ ac yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu: Gweledigaeth ar Waith’, a gyhoeddwyd gan fy adran i.

I welcome the fact, Gareth, that you will establish a rapporteur group in the Enterprise and Learning Committee, because I am sure that it will be a useful guide to me and my department. I hope that my response to this debate today will help to provide an agenda for scrutiny and consideration.

Yr wyf yn croesawu’r ffaith, Gareth, y byddwch yn sefydlu grŵp rapporteur yn y Pwyllgor Menter a Dysgu, oherwydd yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn rhoi arweiniad defnyddiol i mi a’m hadran. Gobeithio y bydd fy ymateb i’r ddadl hon heddiw yn helpu darparu agenda ar gyfer gwaith craffu ac ystyried.

My department is actively involved in implementing relevant policy, and it is

Mae fy adran wrthi’n weithredol yn rhoi polisïau perthnasol ar waith, ac mae hynny’n

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important—I am sure that your rapporteur group will do this—to look at the broad nature of the development work across different phases of education, including initial teacher training and teachers’ continuing professional development. A whole range of approaches need to be sustained. It requires strong partnership working between Government departments, Estyn, local authorities, schools and our other partners, and I was pleased to hear that you envisage young people playing a part in helping us with this work.

bwysig—yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd eich grŵp rapporteur yn gwneud hyn—er mwyn edrych ar natur eang y gwaith datblygu mewn gwahanol gyfnodau addysgu, gan gynnwys hyfforddiant cychwynnol athrawon a datblygiad proffesiynol parhaus athrawon. Mae angen cynnal ystod eang o ddulliau gweithredu. Mae angen partneriaeth gref rhwng adrannau’r Llywodraeth, Estyn, awdurdodau lleol, ysgolion a’n partneriaid eraill, ac yr oeddwn yn falch clywed eich bod yn rhagweld y bydd pobl ifanc yn gwneud eu rhan ac yn ein helpu gyda’r gwaith hwn.

Schools have a pivotal role to play, and over the past two decades substantial steps have been taken to support learners to develop Welsh-language skills. Welsh second language is a statutory subject in the national curriculum, and from September 2008 Welsh-language development is one of the key areas of learning for the foundation phase. That is a new development in early years education, and we must see how that can make a difference. On GCSE results, in 2007-08 24 per cent of those taking the full Welsh second language GCSE achieved grades A* or A, compared with 12 per cent in English language. Similarly, 71 per cent achieved grades A* to C, compared with 61 per cent in English language.

Mae gan ysgolion ran ganolog, ac mae camau mawr wedi’u cymryd yn ystod y ddau ddegawd diwethaf i gefnogi dysgwyr i ddatblygu sgiliau Cymraeg. Mae Cymraeg ail iaith yn bwnc statudol yn y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol, ac er Medi 2008 mae datblygu’r Gymraeg yn un o feysydd dysgu allweddol y cyfnod sylfaen. Mae hynny’n ddatblygiad newydd ym maes addysg y blynyddoedd cynnar, a rhaid inni weld sut y gall hynny wneud gwahaniaeth. O ran canlyniadau TGAU, yn 2007-08 cafodd 24 y cant o’r rheini a oedd yn dilyn y cwrs llawn TGAU Cymraeg ail iaith raddau A* neu A, o’u cymharu â 12 y cant yn y cwrs Saesneg. Yn yr un modd, cafodd 71 y cant raddau A* i C, o’u cymharu â 61 y cant yn y cwrs Saesneg.

That is to be welcomed, but, as you say, there are huge challenges at each phase of education, which was highlighted by Estyn reports. Estyn’s discussion paper, ‘Transforming Schools’, refers in particular to how the new foundation phase could provide a unique opportunity for the next generation of Welsh learners to become fully bilingual. It reiterates the fundamental point that improving the ways in which learning and teaching meet learners’ individual needs will help more learners to be motivated to realise their potential. In terms of early years education, it is the easiest and most natural time for children to begin the journey towards becoming bilingual. Early years education is key to meeting the ‘Iaith Pawb’ target that more five-year-olds should be able to move into Welsh-medium or bilingual primary schools. So, we are committed to expanding access to Welsh-language early years settings.

Mae hynny i’w groesawu, ond, fel yr ydych yn dweud, mae heriau aruthrol ym mhob cyfnod addysgu, a thynnwyd sylw at hynny mewn adroddiadau gan Estyn. Mae papur trafod Estyn, ‘Trawsnewid Ysgolion’, yn ymdrin yn fwyaf penodol â’r ffordd y gallai’r cyfnod sylfaen newydd roi cyfle unigryw i’r genhedlaeth nesaf o ddysgwyr Cymraeg ddod yn gwbl ddwyieithog. Mae’n ailddatgan y pwynt sylfaenol y bydd gwella’r ffyrdd y mae dysgu ac addysgu yn diwallu anghenion unigol dysgwyr yn helpu ysgogi mwy o ddysgwyr i gyflawni eu potensial. O ran addysg y blynyddoedd cynnar, dyma’r adeg hawddaf a mwyaf naturiol i blant ddechrau ar y daith i fod yn ddwyieithog. Mae addysg y blynyddoedd cynnar yn allweddol er mwyn cyflawni targed ‘Iaith Pawb’, sef y dylai mwy o blant pump oed allu symud i ysgolion cynradd Cymraeg neu ddwyieithog. Felly, yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i ehangu mynediad i sefydliadau blynyddoedd cynnar Cymraeg.

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From September of last year, the foundation phase curriculum, which was rolled out for three to seven-year-olds over a four-year period, with an emphasis on play and active learning and story and structured activities, is designed to encourage language learning and positive attitudes towards learning. Welsh-language development is called that because that is what it is; it was going to be called bilingual skills, but it was changed to ‘Welsh-language development’, which is an important indication of our commitment.

Ers Medi y llynedd, mae cwricwlwm y cyfnod sylfaen, sy’n cael ei gyflwyno’n raddol i blant o dair i saith oed dros gyfnod o bedair blynedd, ac sy’n rhoi pwyslais ar chwarae a dysgu gweithredol a stori a gweithgareddau strwythuredig, wedi’i gynllunio er mwyn annog dysgu iaith ac agweddau cadarnhaol at ddysgu. Gelwir datblygu’r Gymraeg wrth yr enw hwnnw gan mai dyna beth ydyw; yr oedd i gael ei alw’n sgiliau dwyieithog, ond cafodd ei newid i ‘ddatblygu’r Gymraeg’, sy’n arwydd pwysig o’n hymrwymiad.

It is one of the seven areas of learning within the foundation phase curriculum. It will offer many children in English-medium school settings their first real exposure to the Welsh language, and a starting point to begin to communicate in Welsh and to develop bilingual communication skills. It will promote the ‘Iaith Pawb’ long-term goal for children under the age of five to have sufficient exposure to Welsh to be able to move into Welsh-medium or bilingual schools. That is now being developed. In 2008, the Welsh-language development guidance was sent out in the foundation phase and, in May of this year, we will produce DVDs to support practitioners in assessing learners against national standards, and I am sure that that will be useful evidence for your rapporteur group.

Mae’n un o saith maes dysgu cwricwlwm y cyfnod sylfaen. I lawer o blant sydd mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg, hwn fydd eu cyswllt gwirioneddol cyntaf â’r iaith Gymraeg, a bydd yn fan cychwyn i ddechrau cyfathrebu yn Gymraeg ac i ddatblygu sgiliau cyfathrebu dwyieithog. Bydd yn hybu nod hirdymor ‘Iaith Pawb’ o sicrhau y bydd plant dan bump oed yn cael digon o gyswllt â’r Gymraeg i’w galluogi i symud i ysgolion Cymraeg neu ddwyieithog. Mae hynny’n cael ei ddatblygu yn awr. Yn 2008, dosbarthwyd canllawiau datblygu’r iaith Gymraeg yn y cyfnod sylfaen, ac ym Mai eleni byddwn yn cynhyrchu DVD i gefnogi ymarferwyr wrth asesu dysgwyr ar sail safonau cenedlaethol, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd hynny’n dystiolaeth ddefnyddiol i’ch grŵp rapporteur.

The school curriculum for seven to 14-year-olds was revised from September last year. There is much greater emphasis now on learners’ acquisition of skills, and we have new guidance for teachers in every national curriculum subject area, including Welsh first language and Welsh second language. Primary and secondary schools have new resources for curriculum subject areas, and the material provides guidance for teachers on best practice and the exemplification of standards. We have provided a new in-service training pack for years 6 and 7 that targets best practice in developing learners’ higher order writing skills in Welsh and English and higher order reading and writing skills in Welsh and English at key stage 3 to key stage 4. That went out to all secondary schools in January, and it has been well received.

Diwygiwyd y cwricwlwm ar gyfer disgyblion o saith i 14 oed o fis Medi y llynedd ymlaen. Mae llawer mwy o bwyslais yn awr ar gael dysgwyr i feithrin sgiliau, ac mae gennym ganllawiau newydd ar gyfer athrawon yn holl feysydd pwnc y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol, gan gynnwys Cymraeg iaith gyntaf a Chymraeg ail iaith. Mae gan ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd adnoddau newydd ar gyfer meysydd pwnc y cwricwlwm, ac mae’r deunydd yn cynnig arweiniad i athrawon ynglŷn â’r arferion gorau a chyfres enghreifftio safonau. Yr ydym wedi darparu pecyn hyfforddiant mewn swydd newydd ar gyfer blynyddoedd 6 a 7 sy’n targedu’r arferion gorau wrth ddatblygu uwch-sgiliau ysgrifennu dysgwyr yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg ac uwch-sgiliau darllen ac ysgrifennu yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg yng nghyfnodau allweddol 3 a 4. Anfonwyd y

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pecyn at bob ysgol uwchradd ym mis Ionawr, ac mae wedi cael derbyniad da.

On teachers’ assessments, we now place importance on giving teachers confidence and support, and we are giving them the resources to secure that teacher assessment at key stages 2 and 3, and that will particularly benefit Welsh second language provision.

O ran asesiadau athrawon, yr ydym yn rhoi pwyslais yn awr ar roi hyder a chefnogaeth i athrawon, ac yr ydym yn rhoi’r adnoddau iddynt i gwblhau’r asesiadau athrawon hynny yng nghyfnodau allweddol 2 a 3, a bydd hynny o fudd penodol i’r ddarpariaeth Gymraeg ail iaith.

The statutory assessment at the end of the key stage 2 covers the four core subjects of Welsh first language, English, mathematics and science and, from the school year 2009-10, Welsh second language will be included in statutory arrangements for teacher assessment and reporting to parents in year 6. That is a huge step forward in further raising the profile of Welsh second language in primary and secondary schools.

Mae’r asesiad statudol ar ddiwedd cyfnod allweddol 2 yn ymwneud â’r pedwar pwnc craidd, sef Cymraeg iaith gyntaf, Saesneg, mathemateg a gwyddoniaeth, ac o flwyddyn ysgol 2009-10 ymlaen bydd Cymraeg ail iaith yn cael ei gynnwys mewn trefniadau statudol ar gyfer asesiadau athrawon ac adrodd i rieni ym mlwyddyn 6. Mae hynny’n gam mawr ymlaen i wella delwedd Cymraeg ail iaith mewn ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd.

Over the course of this year, we will provide additional support for year 6 teachers of Welsh second language by providing new, optional resources aimed at building teacher confidence. That is one of the big issues, so it is about teacher confidence and providing higher standards of teaching and learning where support is needed.

Byddwn yn rhoi cymorth ychwanegol i athrawon blwyddyn 6 sy’n addysgu Cymraeg ail iaith eleni drwy ddarparu adnoddau newydd, dewisol gyda’r bwriad o roi mwy o hyder i athrawon. Mae hynny’n un o’r prif faterion, felly, mae’n ymwneud â hyder athrawon a darparu dysgu ac addysgu o safon uwch lle mae angen cefnogaeth.

Moving on to key stage 3—I have more evidence to give you, but we do not have time for it tonight—by the summer of this year, 52 per cent of Welsh second language departments will have received external moderators’ reports highlighting strengths in teacher assessment and any areas for attention. We are working with the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and its quality assurance group to ensure that local authorities and their schools have this evidence base on which to work together to address issues raised in these reports.

Gan symud ymlaen i gyfnod allweddol 3—mae gennyf fwy o dystiolaeth i’w rhoi ichi, ond nid oes gennym amser heno—erbyn yr haf, bydd 52 y cant o’r adrannau Cymraeg ail iaith wedi cael adroddiadau gan safonwyr allanol yn tynnu sylw at gryfderau mewn asesiadau athrawon ac unrhyw feysydd y mae angen rhoi sylw iddynt. Yr ydym yn gweithio gyda Chymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Addysg Cymru a’i grŵp sicrwydd ansawdd er mwyn sicrhau bod gan awdurdodau lleol a’u hysgolion y dystiolaeth hon i’w defnyddio fel sail i weithio gyda’i gilydd a rhoi sylw i faterion sy’n cael eu codi yn yr adroddiadau hyn.

Therefore, there is the will to do this, and there has been change, and much of it has happened in the last year. That will have an impact, but it may take some time before we see the results. In 2008, the percentage of pupils achieving the expected end of key stage 3 attainment at level 5 or above was

Felly, mae yna ewyllys i wneud hyn, ac yr ydym wedi gweld newid, a llawer ohono yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Bydd hynny’n cael effaith, ond mae’n bosibl na fydd y canlyniadau i’w gweld am ychydig eto. Yn 2008, yr oedd canran y disgyblion a oedd yn cael cyrhaeddiad disgwyliedig lefel 5 neu

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higher than that for the previous year. We have also seen progress in terms of level 5 plus.

uwch ar ddiwedd cyfnod allweddol 3 yn uwch na’r ganran yn y flwyddyn flaenorol. Yr ydym wedi gweld cynnydd hefyd gyda lefelau uwch na 5.

We have also responded to teachers’ concerns about the existing Welsh second language GCSE. They said that it was not relevant to the world of work in later life and that it was not motivating students. Therefore, we have piloted two revised GCSEs in Welsh second language, and they include tasks that are up to date and relevant to the workplace, and a choice of pathways for teaching and learning of the language, one of which is distinctively vocational, which links to our 14-19 learning pathways. We are addressing the issues raised in Estyn’s 2007 report on the Welsh second language GCSE, and we will debate the Estyn report next month.

Yr ydym hefyd wedi ymateb i bryderon athrawon ynglŷn â’r cwrs TGAU Cymraeg ail iaith presennol. Yr oeddent yn dweud nad oedd yn berthnasol i fyd gwaith yn hwyrach mewn bywyd ac nad oedd yn ysgogi myfyrwyr. Felly, yr ydym wedi treialu dau gwrs TGAU diwygiedig mewn Cymraeg ail iaith, ac maent yn cynnwys tasgau sy’n gyfredol ac yn berthnasol i’r gweithle, a dewis o lwybrau ar gyfer dysgu ac addysgu’r iaith, un ohonynt yn amlwg yn alwedigaethol, sy’n cysylltu â’n llwybrau dysgu 14-19. Yr ydym yn rhoi sylw i’r materion a godwyd yn adroddiad Estyn yn 2007 am y cwrs TGAU Cymraeg ail iaith, a byddwn yn trafod adroddiad Estyn y mis nesaf.

Teacher training is critical. We have a lot of measures to boost the supply of Welsh and Welsh-medium teachers. Eligible post-graduate students who train to teach Welsh in initial teacher training receive a £7,200 training grant while studying the course. They may also be eligible for a £2,500 teaching grant if they take up a post teaching their subject and complete their induction. Undergraduates who train to teach Welsh may be eligible for placement grants of £1,000 supported by the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales. We have to do this to motivate and support, and at each phase of a learner’s education there are a number of issues. Eight new Welsh second language commissioning projects are due for delivery this year, with four more providing new resources to schools and, under the Better Schools fund, local authorities have access to multi-million pound grants to enhance and support learning, teaching and assessment.

Mae hyfforddiant athrawon yn hollbwysig. Mae gennym nifer o gynlluniau ar gyfer cael mwy o athrawon Cymraeg ac athrawon cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae graddedigion cymwys sy’n cael eu hyfforddi i addysgu Cymraeg mewn hyfforddiant cychwynnol athrawon yn cael grant hyfforddi o £7,200 wrth astudio’r cwrs. Gallant hefyd fod yn gymwys i gael grant addysgu o £2,500 os byddant yn cael swydd yn addysgu eu pwnc ac yn cwblhau eu cyfnod cynefino. Gall israddedigion sy’n cael eu hyfforddi i addysgu Cymraeg fod yn gymwys i gael grantiau lleoliad o £1,000, sy’n cael eu cefnogi gan Gyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru. Mae’n rhaid inni wneud hyn i ysgogi a chefnogi, ac mae nifer o faterion yn codi ym mhob cam o addysg dysgwr. Disgwylir y bydd wyth prosiect comisiynu Cymraeg ail iaith newydd yn cael eu rhoi ar waith eleni, a phedwar arall yn darparu adnoddau newydd i ysgolion. Yn ychwanegol at hyn, dan y gronfa Ysgolion Gwell, bydd awdurdodau lleol yn gallu cael gwerth miliynau o bunnoedd o grantiau i wella a chefnogi dysgu, addysgu ac asesu.

6.10 p.m.

In conclusion, although I have acknowledged the challenges, there has been achievement, and we have made changes that are now

I gloi, er fy mod wedi cydnabod yr heriau, yr ydym wedi cyflawni llawer, ac yr ydym wedi gwneud newidiadau sy’n cael eu rhoi ar

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being implemented. Further progress is required to further raise the status of Welsh second language in schools; we cannot have headlines that suggest that a Welsh class is second-class. We must ensure progression in the development of skills across the key stages. I have mentioned teacher training, and I have also said that we must motivate our learners and support our teachers. This is will be part of the important work that we are doing in the consultation on our Welsh-medium education strategy, and in the delivery of ‘Iaith Pawb’, and as we reflect upon the important developments with regard to the proposed legislative competence Order on the Welsh language. Diolch yn fawr.

waith yn awr. Mae angen rhagor o gynnydd i roi mwy fyth o statws i Gymraeg ail iaith mewn ysgolion; ni allwn gael penawdau sy’n awgrymu bod dosbarth Cymraeg yn eilradd. Rhaid inni sicrhau cynnydd wrth ddatblygu sgiliau ar draws y cyfnodau allweddol. Yr wyf wedi cyfeirio at hyfforddiant athrawon, ac yr wyf hefyd wedi dweud ei bod yn rhaid inni ysgogi ein dysgwyr a chefnogi ein hathrawon. Bydd hyn yn rhan o’r gwaith pwysig yr ydym yn ei wneud wrth ymgynghori ynglŷn â’n strategaeth addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac wrth gyflawni ‘Iaith Pawb’, ac wrth inni fyfyrio am y datblygiadau pwysig yng nghyswllt y Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol arfaethedig ar yr iaith Gymraeg. Diolch yn fawr.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings today’s business to a close.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 6.11 p.m.The meeting ended at 6.11 p.m

Aelodau a’u PleidiauMembers and their Parties

Andrews, Leighton (Llafur – Labour)Asghar, Mohammad (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Barrett, Lorraine (Llafur – Labour)Bates, Mick (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Black, Peter (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Bourne, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Burnham, Eleanor (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Burns, Angela (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Butler, Rosemary (Llafur – Labour)Cairns, Alun (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Chapman, Christine (Llafur – Labour)Cuthbert, Jeff (Llafur – Labour)Davidson, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Alun (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew R.T. (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Davies, Jocelyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Davies, Paul (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Elis-Thomas, Dafydd (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Evans, Nerys (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Franks, Chris (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)German, Michael (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Graham, William (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Gregory, Janice (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, John (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, Lesley (Llafur – Labour)Gibbons, Brian (Llafur – Labour)

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Hart, Edwina (Llafur – Labour)Hutt, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Isherwood, Mark (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)James, Irene (Llafur – Labour)Jenkins, Bethan (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Alun Ffred (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ann (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Carwyn (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Elin (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Gareth (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Helen Mary (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Law, Trish (Annibynnol – Independent)Lewis, Huw (Llafur – Labour)Lloyd, David (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Lloyd, Val (Llafur – Labour)Melding, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Mewies, Sandy (Llafur – Labour)Millar, Darren (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Jonathan (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Rhodri (Llafur – Labour)Neagle, Lynne (Llafur – Labour)Ramsay, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Randerson, Jenny (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Ryder, Janet (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Sargeant, Carl (Llafur – Labour)Sinclair, Karen (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Gwenda (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Rhodri Glyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Watson, Joyce (Llafur – Labour)Williams, Brynle (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Williams, Kirsty (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

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