U.S. v. District Council 90 Civ. 5722 11.07.11 Conference

8/3/2019 U.S. v. District Council 90 Civ. 5722 11.07.11 Conference

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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

2 ------------------------------x

2

3 UNITED STATES,

3

4 Petitioner,

4

5 v. 90 CV 5722 (RMB)

5

6 DISTRICT COUNCIL, et al.,

6

7 Respondents.

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8 ------------------------------x

8 New York, N.Y.

9 November 7, 20111

9 11:12 a.m.

1010 Before:

11

11 HON. RICHARD M. BERMAN,

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12 District Judge

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13 APPEARANCES

14

14 BEN TORRANCE

15 TARA LaMORTE

15 Assistant United States Attorneys

16

16 DENNIS WALSH

17 Review Officer

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18 MINTZ LEVIN

18 BY: BRIDGET ROHDE

19

19 SCOTT WEISS

20 Attorney for Michael Bilello (also present)

20

21 CARY KANE LLP

21 Attorneys for Carpenter's Committee

22 BY: ANDREW M. KATZ

22

23 McELROY DEUTSCH

23 Attorneys for GCA24 BY: MARK ROSEN

25 (Continued on next page)

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 APPEARANCES (Cont'd)

1

2 DeCARLO, CONNOR & SHANLEY

2 Attorneys for District Council

3 BY: BRIAN F. QUINN

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4 LATHAM & WATKINS LLP

4 Attorneys for United Brotherhood of Carpenters

5 BY: KENNETH CONBOY

5 NATHANAEL YALE

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6 RAYMOND McGUIRE

7 Attorney for Carpenters Industry Benefit Funds

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8 ALSO PRESENT: ELIZABETH O'LEARY

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1 (In open court)

2 THE COURT: So this I think is the date we scheduled

3 the last time for an update as to where things stand. The

4 issues that are typically on the table are elections, delegate

5 and district council, perhaps we can hear about that; bylaws, I

6 don't know if there's much to say about that; the CBA

7 negotiations, probably something to say about that;

8 restructuring perhaps and funds perhaps.

9 But I guess the elections probably we'd start with and

10 see where things are standing with that.

11 REVIEW OFFICER WALSH: Good morning, your Honor.

12 Dennis Walsh, the review officer.

13 I report that we are on schedule for the district

14 council officer elections. We have met the schedule for the

15 local union delegate elections. Each of the local unions has

16 elected delegates who are ready to be installed to consider

17 whatever collective bargaining agreements have been negotiated

18 by the UBC on behalf of the membership. And I understand that

19 there is a draft of the document that describes the labor20 management corporation, which is going to be presented by

21 counsel to me and to the government and to concerned parties

22 for review.

23 So from my perspective, the collective bargaining

24 process can be put to a vote whenever the supervisor is ready

25 to present those agreements, which I understand include five


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1 major associations. So there is significant progress in that

2 respect. And from my perspective, this has been a very

3 dedicated process and we are ready to install the new

4 government of the District Council of Carpenters on January 11,

5 2012.

6 THE COURT: Great. Anything with the bylaws, anything

7 to talk about that?

8 REVIEW OFFICER WALSH: Judge, the bylaws are settled.

9 They will be in full force and effect when the new regime and

10 the delegates are installed.

11 THE COURT: So they'll apply in January, so to speak.

12 REVIEW OFFICER WALSH: Yes.

13 Just some particulars on the election, the ballots

14 will be mailed on November 21. We will be holding a debate at

15 the Javits Center at 5 o'clock p.m. on November 16, which is

16 next week, and all members are of course invited to attend that

17 and make up their minds about the in-person presentations of

18 the candidates.

19 We also held the essay component that was described in20 the election rules, and all of those candidate essays are

21 posted on the district council website in the public section so

22 that any interested person may view them.

23 THE COURT: I guess Mr. Conboy.

24 MR. CONBOY: Good morning, your Honor. Kenneth Conboy

25 of Latham & Watkins for the UBC.


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1 As Mr. Walsh has just indicated, Judge, we are hopeful

2 that by the close of business today, what the UBC hopes will be

3 the final detail draft of the collective bargaining agreement

4 will be distributed to the five owner associations. This has

5 been the subject of very intense detailing.

6 As your Honor will recall, there have been some MOUs

7 of record that have been signed and, in fact, the delegate body

8 voted to approve those; but we all understood that prior to the

9 submission of detailed CBAs to both the review officer and the

10 government that we were really not going to be in a position to

11 ultimately come to the Court to have the Court's review and

12 response to this program.

13 As your Honor remembers, there are two crucial

14 components in the overall part of the CBA with which the Court

15 is concerned. One is the formulation of the labor management

16 committee, which was first referred to by Judge Haight in the

17 controlling order here. And, indeed, that broad reform, the

18 labor management committee, was in its initial format actually

19 recommended by the UBC to the United States attorney at the20 very beginning of this trusteeship. So, very much detail has

21 now been developed and on our side decided that this is in fact

22 the appropriate substance for this agreement.

23 I do want to just mention that my colleague Brian

24 Quinn, who is counsel to the district council here on the

25 matter, and my other colleague, Raymond McGuire, have in fact


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1 taken the lead in formulating the necessary detail in the

2 documents that are going to be circulated today. It is our

3 hope that we will have or there may be some additional further

4 reaction to these documents by the contractor associations. It

5 is our hope that the delegate body can in fact be briefed on

6 and then called upon to vote with respect to the CBA drafts as

7 soon as possible, and we are simultaneously sending copies of

8 these papers to the United States attorney and to the review

9 officer.

10 THE COURT: So I think I missed something. You

11 mentioned there were two key components that I'd be concerned

12 about. One was the labor management committee. I don't know

13 that -- I must have missed the second one.

14 MR. CONBOY: I'm sorry. I think I actually omitted to

15 reference it, Judge. I apologize.

16 THE COURT: No problem.

17 MR. CONBOY: The second is of course the

18 anticorruption mechanisms that are hopefully going to be

19 availing in terms of providing the critical protection to the20 funds, and that being of course the compilation of data

21 generated by scanning devices and ultimately imposing a formal

22 legal record accessible to all as to what hours were worked and

23 what money is owed as of what date. And then, of course,

24 there's going to be the subsequent follow through so that we do

25 not have the very serious derelictions that were exposed when


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1 the U.S. attorney began and ultimately successfully concluded

2 his investigation of the senior district council leadership

3 and, frankly, to a secondary extent, those charged with

4 identifying, recording, and collecting moneys that in many,

5 many cases never found their way into the coffers of the funds.

6 So those two core issues I believe are in reasonably

7 broad and detailed final form, and we are hopeful that we will

8 have quick responses from the contractors and we can then

9 proceed to the delegate body to get their necessary vote.

10 THE COURT: If you had to estimate or guesstimate,

11 what would you see as the timetable?

12 MR. CONBOY: Would you mind, Judge, if I asked

13 Mr. Quinn to give you the estimate?

14 THE COURT: Not at all.

15 MR. CONBOY: Because these gentlemen have been the

16 ones who have really been focused on this.

17 MR. QUINN: Good morning, your Honor.

18 Your Honor, I would be estimating, but the contracts

19 will go out this week. We'll get feedback from the contractor20 associations hopefully quickly, work on any issues that there

21 may be between them, and if there are no significant issues,

22 then get that wrapped up, then get it to the delegates. I

23 would think with the holiday coming up, probably not until the

24 end of the month or the early part of the following month.

25 THE COURT: What happens, they get it or they --


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1 MR. QUINN: Well, hopefully get it to them, it can be

2 explained to them by the administration, and then have a vote.

3 THE COURT: I see. Okay. Restructuring, is there

4 anything?

5 MR. CONBOY: Your Honor, I believe as we indicated

6 last time the restructuring program is concluded.

7 As you know, there were some thoughts about

8 millwrights, and my understanding is that we are not proceeding

9 at this time with respect to the proposed millwright program.

10 And I believe the rest of the program has, with the

11 very critical modification that your Honor heard about last

12 time, i.e., continuing to contain the dock builders operations

13 within the geographical boundaries of New York City, so that

14 obviated any discussion -- remember we had extensive comments

15 about the economic impact of going across the Hudson River.

16 That has been essentially decided against. So I really don't

17 think there is going to be any further issues associated with

18 restructuring at this time.

19 THE COURT: Okay. Is there anything new to talk about20 about the funds then?

21 MR. McGUIRE: Raymond McGuire for the funds, your

22 Honor, a few things.

23 As you know, the trustees oversee the pension,

24 annuity, training, and welfare funds. And we're constantly

25 monitoring the pension and welfare funds through our investment


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1 adviser, IFS; and with respect to the pension funds, attempting

2 to identify alternative investments with low correlations to

3 the stock market; with respect to the annuity funds, we're

4 always looking for better performing funds to make available

5 for the self-choice exercise by the carpenters participating in

6 the fund.

7 The training fund, we had a significant development.

8 The long-term director of the labor technical college which

9 runs both the apprenticeship program and ongoing journeyman

10 training retired. Martin Daly retired as of the end of this

11 month. And his interim replacement is the current director of

12 the labor management corporation, Elie Spicer, who has been

13 with the carpenters for many, many years as a worker and now an

14 administrator. We will be going out with advertisements and

15 appropriate media to identify and interview prospective

16 permanent replacements for Mr. Daly.

17 With respect to the welfare fund, the trustees

18 continue to struggle to figure out how to deal with escalating

19 medical costs and flat revenues. Technically, the trustees20 have deadlocked on this issue, but they're continuing to work

21 informally together to figure out how to deal with that issue.

22 That's all we have, your Honor.

23 THE COURT: Okay. That's all I really wanted to

24 cover.

25 Did anybody else have any comments first on this side


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1 of the audience? No.

2 Anybody in the audience want to be heard?

3 MR. LEBO: Good morning, your Honor. Bill Lebo, Local

4 45.

5 Your Honor, the only thing I want to address here is

6 the contract issues. Now, it's my understanding in the bylaws

7 that it will take place -- it will take effect in January,

8 sorry. The delegates, it states in there that the delegates

9 have the -- they have the right to decide how the contracts

10 will be ratified.

11 Now, I know at my local meeting this past October I

12 made a motion that our delegates, whoever was elected --

13 because at the time the elections were just going on -- whoever

14 was finally elected should stand up and let and tell the

15 delegates present at this contract negotiation meeting that

16 they feel or the local feels that the membership should have

17 final ratification of the contracts and they should make that

18 motion.

19 The motion was passed at the local meeting, and it's20 going to be interesting to see what comes of this because in

21 order to get a true consensus of what the membership wants -- I

22 haven't heard anything today about notifying the members of

23 what the negotiations came down to. We don't know what the

24 final issues are. And, by rights, we should so that we can

25 debate it on the floor and let our delegates know how we feel


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1 about it.

2 Now, the delegates at this point if they were just

3 given the issues wouldn't really know how the membership's true

4 feelings were about it so to get a true consensus would be a

5 ratification by the membership. And like I said, it should be

6 interesting to find out if our delegates do go ahead with that

7 because they do have that right in the bylaws.

8 Thank you, your Honor.

9 MR. CLARKE: Good afternoon, your Honor. Gene Clarke.

10 I'd like to show you what has never been dealt with,

11 the blue card. What it says -- I'm is going to leave this with

12 you when I go. Also, I have no intentions of signing it

13 because I do not adhere to extortion. That's one thing about

14 me. If you're going to steal from me, you better have a gun

15 and you better shoot me before you leave because that's what

16 it's about with me.

17 Now, I want to bring something to your mind. We have

18 a fellow IG, his name is Scott Danderson, who allowed Maurice

19 Leary to get away with misusing the out-of-work list even20 though he was in charge of it for ten years, okay. Ten years

21 he was in charge of the out-of-work list. Maurice Leary he let

22 go with a thousand dollar fine and he get to keep his pension,

23 everything. And on top of that, Leary went to work for the

24 state as a safety inspector, something, a Class C attendant in

25 the district council of carpenters, so he walked out the door


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1 with no problems.

2 We had another man who went down and protested three

3 years ago, Brian. He was angry, along with 400 people that

4 showed up for the demonstration outside of the council, and he

5 got up on the counter in the council. He was fined $25,000 and

6 thrown out of the union. His crime was not a crime because he

7 refused to sign this card and adhered to extortion and that's

8 exactly what this card represented.

9 This was the unity team, the unity team that put

10 together all this luxurious living, drugs, prostitution, you

11 name it, but they were raising the fine from $250 to 500. The

12 international rules at the time said you cannot raise it more

13 than 250. You cannot charge more than $250 fine. They did it.

14 They went. As a matter of fact, they took a hundred dollars

15 out of my money, last paycheck, last carpenter's check.

16 Now, the carpenters's vacation check is wages. The

17 only thing they're allowed to do is keep the interest from the

18 money that's collected for the vacation fund. And then the

19 check is sent to you because it's a taxable income, all right.20 That's part.

21 Also, recently I just got this in the mail that we

22 have 81 percent pension, which to me is a joke because I have

23 people that tell me it's about 53. I don't know who printed

24 this up.

25 Also, I called up at the district council and I asked


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1 them about the building. How come there's no real estate?

2 It's Section 6 on assets. They told me, well, we don't know.

3 I said did you sell the building? I would like to know. No.

4 Well, they hung up.

5 Participate in loans, as we know, you can't take loans

6 from a pension fund, but it seems like they did. I see this

7 1457. So maybe Mr. McGuire could explain to me what this is

8 about. This is a joke.

9 THE COURT: What is it?

10 MR. CLARKE: I'm going to leave this with you also.

11 You can read this. Maybe you have nothing to do some day.

12 You'll get a kick out of it.

13 THE COURT: I'm not sure I quite got what your

14 specific question is about it.

15 MR. CLARKE: I'm going to leave it.

16 THE COURT: Okay.

17 MR. CLARKE: Now, also, a year ago April when I was

18 recuperating from cancer, I went down to the district council

19 and seen this fellow Valentine because the other guy didn't20 want to see me because I told him, I asked him how come you're

21 not firing people here? These funds are a wreck. I said get

22 these people out of here. He said -- next thing I go see

23 Valentine. I said to Valentine, listen, you got a guy, Forde's

24 cousin, who is shop steward -- Ryan Rabel. Why is he still

25 allowed to stay in this union? He's there as Forde's cousin


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1 and they won't touch him.

2 So, you see, nothing has changed. It's just the same

3 garbage going on. And you have four lawyers here

4 representing -- you know who they're resting? Doug McCarron.

5 That's who they're representing. They're not representing this

6 membership. This membership has no people representing them.

7 What they have is people from California. They got people from

8 here and there. And we got a Judge Conboy who was a loser last

9 time who should have cleaned the mess up but he's back on the

10 payroll for McCarron. So how long can we take this nonsense.

11 Oh, this, you can have this.

12 THE COURT: I'll make them court exhibits for today's

13 conference.

14 MR. CLARKE: The envelope is important where it came

15 from.

16 MR. WELLINGTON: Good morning, Judge. My name is

17 Calyx Wellington, Local 157, ten plus years in the local union.

18 Judge, I come here on behalf of the members at large

19 and with the full mobility crisis we had in the last court20 date, and I expect you to make a good decision on that where

21 the contracts will continue with or without full mobility. And

22 despite the fact that it will be on probation, it's still a

23 matter of concern to us.

24 So right now I want to say that the problem has arised

25 through vaguely through lack of professionalism on the


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1 contracts because of the data that I'm collecting from all

2 over, including international, according to my information,

3 London, England was one of the leading places in construction

4 for the most part of the time in the whole world. New York

5 City has bypassed it.

6 So we are not losing jobs, we are not suffering here.

7 We are just going through a phase of greediness which we call

8 misappropriation of funds from the contractors where they fall

9 short. And because of this, we have a lot of people who are

10 subject to fines in regards to bad construction.

11 But, really, the contract and the idea of the

12 contracts coming to Mr. Conboy giving us the two phase of the

13 recommendation committee by Judge Haight and the anticorruption

14 mechanism, simply I can tell you for fact that this is not a

15 done deal. That will not solve the problems in regards to

16 negotiations. I am a strong advocate for change. But when it

17 comes to security devices, which I clearly can use a hundred

18 percent, the contractor will still be able to manipulate me by

19 sending these guys to work in my absence. So I pray that20 everything is done well.

21 Thank you, Judge.

22 THE COURT: Anybody else?

23 MR. NEE: Good afternoon, your Honor, Patrick Nee.

24 In regards to the delegates ratifying the contract,

25 the word delegates were briefed on the contracts. I want to


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1 hear from somebody that we're going to get a full copy. Each

2 delegate will have in his possession a full copy of each

3 contract, and we'll have a time to read and review these

4 contracts before they're being ratified.

5 I'm worried they're going to try to push through five

6 contracts one session and take-it-or-leave-it kind of thing.

7 And if you can't take the time, you don't get a vote. So I'd

8 like to clarify that each delegate will have a copy of the

9 contracts and they're not going to expect it to get all this

10 done in one night.

11 THE COURT: Somebody could comment on the process. I

12 was trying to get at that before.

13 Mr. Quinn, is that you?

14 MR. QUINN: Well, your Honor, I'll discuss it with the

15 council about how they want to proceed with this.

16 THE COURT: How does it get posted, on the website or?

17 MR. QUINN: The issues raised by Mr. Nee, when I go

18 back today, I'll mention that, how do you expect to get this

19 done.20 THE COURT: Excuse me. And also a time frame so -- he

21 makes the right point that if you don't get something in

22 advance, you can't intelligently --

23 MR. QUINN: Right.

24 THE COURT: Thanks.

25 Okay, last speaker.


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1 MR. PASSERO: Good morning, Judge Berman. Joseph

2 Passero, Local 1556.

3 It's an issue for the delegates ratifying the

4 contract. Delegates are sent there to represent the

5 membership. That's what the delegate definition is. They're

6 not to act independently. For the delegates to vote on the

7 prospective collective bargaining agreement, these bargaining

8 agreements should be made available to the membership to review

9 and then the membership tell the delegates how they want it

10 voted, yes or no.

11 This can't be done in one day. This can't be done in

12 two days, because all the locals have meetings at different

13 times. All the delegates of the appropriate local should bring

14 the agreement back to their membership meeting, present it to

15 the meeting, allow the members to review it, and then the

16 members tell the delegates how they want them to vote. So it's

17 going to take a little bit longer than the end of the month.

18 THE COURT: I hear you. Essentially Mr. Nee's points.

19 MR. PASSERO: Yes.20 THE COURT: I got it.

21 MR. PASSERO: Thank you.

22 THE COURT: You bet. Yeah.

23 MR. WALSH: Good morning, Judge Berman. My name is

24 Bill Walsh, Local 157.

25 Just kind of echoing what was mentioned that the fact


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1 of the matter that we're in unchartered territory here with our

2 elections and the whole process that's being put in front of

3 us, I just don't see the reason why everything is being forced

4 on the membership in such a short amount of time, a short

5 window. It seems --

6 THE COURT: Like what?

7 MR. WALSH: Well, for instance, the elections. We

8 just had delegate elections, and we have a short timetable to

9 get things done. Mr. Walsh --

10 THE COURT: You mean the December elections?

11 MR. WALSH: Yes. And also the delegate election as

12 well, because we were given a small window to get signatures.

13 Mr. Walsh is doing a great job getting rid of the corruption,

14 unscrupulous people, but I believe that we're on an agenda here

15 that was almost pushed down our throats a little bit here

16 because things take time.

17 And, for instance, with the few members that just got

18 up before us, we need to see what's going on here. We know

19 other people have their agendas and what they're trying to get20 done, but you know what? If you want fair democracy and, you

21 know, you have to give us enough time to read what's going on,

22 to get the signatures that you need to run for office, to

23 perhaps correct, in my case, which I had a bad interview, I had

24 a bad day that day, and it turned out that now my name, Bill

25 Walsh, is like I've been vetoed to return for trustee. And


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1 many members are calling me up to find out if I'm involved with

2 all these bad people that have been down there. And for 25

3 years I have nothing but a stellar reputation, and I feel that

4 wasn't quite fair that one has a bad day, if I were happen to

5 re-interview -- I know Mr. Walsh has his agenda, but you got to

6 give us some time to move around here and really digest what is

7 going on.

8 This rumor is out there about -- this is kind of

9 addressed, I don't know if I could mention Mr. McGuire's name,

10 but a couple years ago there were a lot of checks that

11 disappeared. A fellow named Mr. Naselli that was taking checks

12 from the district council and cashing them through a New Jersey

13 check cashing place with his girlfriend. He ended up killing

14 her and committing suicide, and this all was under the watchful

15 eye of Stuart Grabois. And this was all posted in the

16 newspapers. This is not a secret. I was just curious does

17 Mr. McGuire know anything about this, what is being done to try

18 to find out about the actual checks and who was in charge of

19 that?20 And the main point I'm going to make here, your Honor,

21 is there were a lot of people that did the wrong thing, and I

22 don't really see many charges being given to the bad stewards

23 that were out there, the bad companies, and some of the

24 employees that work for the council are getting off scot free.

25 It's almost like crime pays. It's not right. I just don't


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1 see. I know the elections are No. 1 importance for everybody.

2 But you know what, that's a lot of things we have to clean up

3 from the past.

4 THE COURT: When did this Naselli thing happen?

5 MR. WALSH: I believe it was 2007, okay. And it was a

6 lot of money that was lost in the council.

7 And Mr. Clarke brought up some numbers about our

8 benefits funds, how well they're doing now, but two, three

9 years ago they weren't doing well, and I'd like to know where

10 that money came from to replenish everything. According to

11 this Hollow Metal situation -- that's the name of the pension

12 fund. You know what, I'm in 25 years. Maybe I'm ignorant, I

13 never heard of that until I got the letter last week. So I

14 don't know what this Hollow Metal fund is and who did that and

15 where that came from.

16 One last thing, that blue card is still being

17 circulated among the membership and I thought that was supposed

18 to be suspended.

19 THE COURT: The which?20 MR. WALSH: The blue card. On my job, many members

21 come from New Jersey and they came up to me and showed me the

22 card still, and I wrote letters to the council and didn't

23 really get a response back. And I'm just curious. I thought

24 that process was suspended until we figured out what was going

25 on with that.


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1 Thank you, your Honor.

2 THE COURT: You bet.

3 Mr. Walsh, could you comment on that blue card? I'm

4 not sure I understand that issue.

5 REVIEW OFFICER WALSH: It's been a long-running issue

6 with many of the members. It was a program instituted by the

7 Forde regime which at least in theory sought to compel one to

8 do one's picket duty and that if you did your picket duty, some

9 $500 that was withheld would then be paid to you.

10 There was a demonstration a couple years ago, which

11 was well-attended, which did get out of hand and led to the

12 arrest of one of the members who did jump up on the security

13 desk. He was brought up on charges and, in essence, turned

14 into a poster boy for the authority of the Forde regime. He

15 was convicted, he was heavily fined, and he was expelled from

16 the union.

17 I've always been very sympathetic to Mr. Brennan's

18 plight, and I have told the UBC that I thought it was a

19 situation that they should revisit, perhaps in the general20 president's office. Mr. Brennan has since filed a lawsuit,

21 which I believe is active here in the Southern District under

22 the LMRDA, and I also let my opinion be known to the UBC that I

23 think that is a lawsuit that should be settled rather than

24 district council moneys being expended going forward.

25 But the program is very controversial. It is very


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1 unpopular amongst a significant percentage of the membership.

2 THE COURT: Yeah.

3 MR. HOLLNESS: Good morning, your Honor. Gauntlett

4 Hollness.

5 I wanted to reiterate something about what Mr. Walsh

6 said about the district council employees. It's almost like

7 whatever they do, seem to be they get away with just a slap on

8 the hand and that's it.

9 I remember back when the out-of-work list rule was

10 changed. It was a ruling by the court where any changes to the

11 bylaws must go through the court. And Mr. Thomason went ahead

12 and changed the out-of-work list rules in order to accommodate

13 his friends, the contractors, to give them that request system.

14 At the time when it happened, it seemed like more corruption

15 more than anything.

16 And at this time now what they're trying to do is

17 implement something what they call full mobility where the

18 companies would have a hundred percent of their guys with just

19 one oversight from one shop steward in regards to how many20 members are going to be on the job site working. So I don't

21 understand how one person can be overseeing all those people.

22 When the company is telling them to do something, they're not

23 going to go against them. That is their job. That's the

24 bottom line.

25 So how is it you're going to have a system put in


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1 place where it takes away fairness from the general membership,

2 where as it is right now, I'm not working, many members I know

3 are not working, and the minority sector there are many people

4 not working simply because they do not know a lot of

5 contractors, they do not know a lot of foremans, don't know a

6 lot of owners and they're not working because of that.

7 I was just running in the recent election, the

8 delegate election, and the cutoff vote for becoming a delegate

9 to the council was 465. I got 464 votes. And a lot of members

10 came down to support me. They were not able to vote simply

11 because their dues was not paid up because they haven't been

12 working for months on, months off, where the other members are

13 able to work full-time in one job and leave and go to another

14 job and do overtime, no questions asked.

15 I want to know where is the brotherhood in this union

16 where you're going to tell me I'm your brother where you can

17 work 180 grand a year and another member over there working 20,

18 25 grand. Where is the fairness? And for the company to sit

19 there and say that they want full mobility to have their guys20 go to work, they know their friends, the one that lives in

21 their neighborhood, the one that lives down the block from

22 them, their brother-in-law. That means a guy like me will

23 never work. That's the bottom line.

24 Just like I'm not working right now. I work five

25 weeks, okay. I work 25 days. Even that out-of-work list is


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1 25-day rule where you work 25 days, not even enough to pay you

2 benefit for one quarter to take care of your kids. It's not

3 even enough for one quarter to get your medical benefit to

4 pay -- I don't understand. Where is the fairness?

5 Another thing I wanted to say, your Honor -- my head

6 is spinning in a way because I'm so ticked off -- and

7 especially when it comes to this district council employee

8 where they are able to what they will and push whatever agenda

9 the contractors want them to push. What about the membership?

10 The membership has been saying we do not want anything called

11 full mobility. Why is it still an issue? I don't get it. Why

12 is it still an issue? We have to instill fairness so

13 everybody, I'm a due-paying member just like everybody else,

14 and I want to get the fair chance to go out and work just like

15 everybody else.

16 What am I missing here? What am I missing? This is

17 supposed to be equal opportunity. I pay my dues as a member.

18 I get up, I go to work. You're not going to tell me that

19 carpenter over there is better than me. I do work, I do20 framing, I do whatever there is to do in carpentry. Because

21 I'm not working, is it because I'm not a good carpenter? No.

22 It's because I don't know the right people. There has to be

23 fairness. 50/50 needs to be reinstated just as it was before.

24 Pete Thomas went ahead and changed the rules for what

25 price, I don't know. What was the price for him doing


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1 something like that? He was willing to sacrifice himself in

2 order to give the contractors what they want.

3 They tell me about anticorruption rule.

4 Anticorruption, if there is a will there's a way. If they want

5 to get around whatever rules they put in place, it's almost I

6 say, excuse me, Judge, I don't want to say the word, but when

7 they went ahead and changed those rules, it's probably they

8 decided to hell with the court, but hell is not the word they

9 used. I guarantee you that much. Because these people are

10 getting a slap on the wrist whenever they do anything.

11 It has to be rules put in place. If you change this,

12 point blank, it's going to be five years in jail and that's it.

13 Forget all this wiggle room, you can get around this. Forget

14 all of that. This is becoming like a joke. No wonder why

15 these guys are doing these things, to hell with it, because

16 people do not take these things serious enough.

17 There's so many members out there losing their houses,

18 not being able to take care of their family, and all they're

19 talking about is full mobility because they want their people20 and friends to go to work and other people stay home. Come on

21 now.

22 THE COURT: Mr. Walsh, I'm not quite understanding how

23 these contracts ultimately get voted on. Maybe you can help me

24 with that.

25 REVIEW OFFICER WALSH: I think the principal point


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1 that Mr. Hollness makes is a very good one and we've touched on

2 this in previous sessions here in court. There's been a

3 tremendous amount of frustration during the period of the

4 supervision that what is essentially a political question has

5 been in the hands of the UBC. The question has to do with

6 whether the union as a political body wants to have a ratio of

7 members who come from the union and work on a job site, and

8 that is what Mr. Hollness is talking about, I believe, when he

9 talks about fundamental fairness and the concept of a

10 brotherhood.

11 There are those in the union who disagree with him,

12 who believe that those who are skilled and are skilled in

13 networking should have the opportunity to present themselves to

14 contractors who can select them and be able to employ whomever

15 they please rather than having a certain percentage forced on

16 them on a job.

17 So I think recognizing that, that was why we talked in

18 some detail at the last conference about the imperative of

19 having the newly elected delegate body take up the question of20 the parts of the collective bargaining agreement and whether in

21 fact it is the will of the membership to have full mobility or

22 to have a ratio of members who come from the hall.

23 So I think we've restored a measure of that political

24 process to the membership.

25 And Mr. Lebo and others have made the point that


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1 they'd like to see the input directly from the rank and file to

2 the newly elected delegates so that the delegates who do

3 ultimately vote on these propositions and on these CBAs have

4 the feelings directly from the rank and file of what they want

5 the carpenters union to be in New York City.

6 THE COURT: I got most of that. I'm trying to figure

7 out that process though in terms of so the delegate is there

8 obviously as the representative of the membership, right?

9 That's why they're the delegate.

10 REVIEW OFFICER WALSH: Yes.

11 THE COURT: But they make a good point that the

12 membership would also need to see these drafts or be able to

13 discuss these drafts before their delegates vote. And so I'm

14 not -- maybe it's not clear to all of you yet, but it's not

15 clear to me how that process is going to unfold mechanically.

16 REVIEW OFFICER WALSH: As Mr. Quinn said, he was going

17 to talk to the district council people.

18 My recommendation would be that there be full

19 disclosure so that we can have informed debate and there's no20 question as to whether anything has been forced upon people or

21 inadequately disclosed thus vitiating the decisions the

22 delegates make when they vote.

23 THE COURT: But in the nitty-gritty, how is that going

24 to work? Is there a day and two weeks later there's a vote or

25 there's a date a document is published and available on the


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1 website? You know, that's really what they're talking about.

2 REVIEW OFFICER WALSH: Within the schedule that the

3 UBC has discussed today, I think that would leave enough

4 time -- because I understand some of these CBAs have actually

5 been typed and we're going to get the draft of the labor

6 management document today -- that ought to leave, frankly, at

7 least two weeks where these documents can be posted on the

8 district council website in the members section and people can

9 start the dialogue and the debate about the essential terms and

10 they can communicate to the delegates, which would give them

11 ample time to have that discussion and meet the schedule that

12 Mr. Quinn talked about by having the delegates installed and

13 voting on these agreements by the end of November or the first

14 week of December.

15 THE COURT: Okay. So, Mr. Quinn, that all depends on

16 when the documents are available for public dissemination.

17 MR. QUINN: Yes, your Honor, and I'll bring up these

18 issues that were discussed today with council.

19 THE COURT: Okay. And so could you or Mr. Walsh or20 both of you send me a letter just indicating what you've agreed

21 as to when the documents will be public and when they'll be

22 posted in relation to when they might be voted upon?

23 MR. QUINN: Yes, your Honor.

24 THE COURT: Great. Anybody have anything else they

25 want to comment on?


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1 We said the last about three times already. You came

2 late. Let's go.

3 MR. FRANCO: Thank you very much, your Honor. My name

4 is Dan Franco, member of Local 157.

5 Several weeks ago, actually, the morning of the last

6 court conference, we put together a petition to have full

7 mobility denied for several reasons. As of this time I have

8 over 200 signatures against full mobility.

9 And the reasons why we're against full mobility is

10 because we see it as a way that the contractors are going to

11 have absolute control of the job site, that they're going to be

12 able to tell their workers what to do, and there's not going to

13 be too much recourse from the union side.

14 Some of the reasons why we want to have full mobility

15 denied is the circumvention of the out-of-work list. They

16 pretty much won't use it after they have full mobility. We

17 feel that there's going to be further acceptance of cash

18 payments by some of the members because they'll be pressured if

19 they're going to work, they're going to do what they're told.20 We feel that there's going to be additional health and

21 safety violations because the contractors are going to have

22 that much more leeway to get away with what they want to get

23 away with. We feel that they're going to enforce production

24 quotas on us, and they're expressly forbidden in our

25 agreements.


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1 We think there's going to be additional age, race, and

2 sex discrimination. We think there's going to be an increase

3 of hiding of faulty materials and poor and incomplete

4 workmanship.

5 And there are several other reasons that we think it

6 shouldn't be accepted is that when the steward is on the job,

7 he is the eyes and the ears of the union, and if he is going

8 get no assistance or very little assistance from the members

9 because they fear even more for their jobs and we have a

10 cooperating union with contractors or what we call very

11 contractor friendly, we feel that the steward is going to be

12 between a rock and a hard place even more so.

13 We just feel that the full mobility is the wrong thing

14 for our union. Thank you very much.

15 THE COURT: And what happened -- where did you present

16 the petition to?

17 MR. FRANCO: Individual members at my council for the

18 most part, on the job site, and wherever I see another member I

19 show them the petition.20 THE COURT: Do you want to present it here?

21 MR. FRANCO: If you were to accept it, yes, sir.

22 THE COURT: We'll take it. Is that your only copy?

23 MR. FRANCO: I have copies.

24 THE COURT: We'll make that a court exhibit.

25 MR. FRANCO: Thank you.


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1 THE COURT: All right. So I think that concludes our

2 work for today. When do you all think that another meeting

3 would be helpful?

4 REVIEW OFFICER WALSH: Judge, I expect that the

5 American Arbitration Association will be tabulating the ballots

6 by December 16. So we may want to have the results of the

7 election in hand and schedule a conference very shortly

8 thereafter.

9 THE COURT: That's a Friday. I could do the next

10 week, Tuesday or Wednesday. Why don't we say, if it works for

11 all, Tuesday is the 20th. How about 10 a.m. on the 20th.

12 Great.

13 Thanks very much. Nice to see you all.

14 o0o

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U.S. v. District Council 90 Civ. 5722 11.07.11 Conference

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Transcript of U.S. v. District Council 90 Civ. 5722 11.07.11 Conference