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READERS of Manushi know that it notonly describes the realities of women’slives but also seeks to change thoserealities. It advocate’s rights and permitswomen to communicate with each otherabout their problems. Manushi’s formatand spirit are new, but it represents a longand distinguished tradition in Indianjournalism that goes back into thenineteenth century.

Early Indian women’s magazines, in anumber of languages, championedwomen’s education, condemned socialcustoms that kept women subservient andencouraged women’s self espression. Aschampions of women’s rights, however,these publications have a mixed legacy.They portrayed the ideal woman as skilfulwife and nurturing mother, educated butwholly domestic, the helpmate to theeducated, middle class man. Education forwomen was seen as contributing to thatideal, not as preparing women for careersoutside the home (except for teaching), noran independent existence. From acontemporary viewpoint, it is easy to seein this ideal of womanhood the basis forwomen’s continued subordination withinthe patriarchal family. Examined in theirhistorical context, however, these women’smagazines were brave pioneers, expandingthe frontiers of women’s roles andconsciousness at a time when thosefrontiers were severely limited.

I propose to examine this mixed legacyin the cases of several women’s magazinesin Urdu, publications that I read in thecourse of doing historical research onMuslim women in India in the late

nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.Tahzib un-Niswan of Lahore, founded in1898, Khatun of Aligarh, which ran from1904 to 1914, and Ismat of Delhi, foundedin 1908, raised important social issues andhelped enlighten and alleviate the isolationof women in parda, while promoting anideal of competent domesticity. In so doing,these magazines were not very differentfrom women’s magazines founded byHindu social reformers in Hindi, Bengali,and other languages. Patriarchy and social

gradually the number of subscriptionsincreased to some 300 or 400 after fouryears. Publishing a women’s periodicalwas a difficult and certainly not lucrativeenterprise, and the fact that Tahzibsurvived into the 1950s is due largely tothe talents and energies of its founders.

Mumtaz Ali (1860-1935) was from afamily with a tradition of religious learning;his father was in government service inthe Punjab. As a youth, he had one year ofschooling at the Deoband madarsa before

Examined in their historical contexti these women’smagazines were brave pioneers, expanding the frontiers of

women’s roles and consciousness at a time when thosefrontiers were severely limited

Urdu Women’s Magazines In The EarlyTwentieth Century

by Gail Minault

reform were symbiotic, regardless ofreligious community.Tahzib un-Niswan

Sayyid Mumtaz Ali and his wife,Muhammadi Begam, launched the Urduweekly newspaper for women, Tahzib un-Niswan, in 1898. Tahzib was not the firstUrdu periodical for women, but it was thefirst to survive. The success of thenewspaper was surprising, for when thecouple began publishing it, they mailed itout free of cost to names on the civil list,hoping to enlist subscriptions. Many oftheir prospective subscribers respondedby returning the paper to sender, often withobscenities scribbled on the label. It wasnot an auspicious beginning. After a fewmonths, Tahzib had only 60 or 70subscribers, but the couple persisted, and

going to Lahore for an English education.In Lahore, he became involved in religiouscontroversy, at first simply listening to thedebates among Christian missionaries,Muslims, and Arya Samajis that took placein public squares, but later joining in thedebates himself. As an adult, he used hisskill in debate to address his fellowMuslims on the subject of women’s rightsin Islamic law.

His work Huquq un-Niswan(“Women’s Rights”), emphasised that theposition of women in Islamic law wastheoretically much higher than theircontemporary status was in fact. Thecause of this discrepancy, he felt, wasadherence to false customs that had beengiven the force of religion. The key to thereform and advancement of the Muslim

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community, therefore, was to combatwomen’s adherence to superstitiouscustoms, but also to challenge men’s viewsconcerning women’s rights. Women areequal souls before god. Thus, keepingwomen in ignorance and isolation is not arequirement of Islam, and to think that it isbetrays a lack of understanding of religionas well as a fundamental mistrust ofwomen, which is destructive of family life,of human love, and of all that the Prophet’smessage stood for in a dynamic, justsociety. To support his point, Mumlaz Aliargued in the clear and logical style forwhich he became known: “The questionis: Does the ability to do things [requiringphysical strength] give men truesuperiority or nobility or give the male sexexclusive claim to those qualities? Ourreply to that question should be quiteclear... Both sexes have nobility, excellence,and both are needed to complete theother... A donkey can carry more on its backthan a man, but that does not mean thatthe donkey is superior to the man. By thesame token, man cannot establish hissuperiority [over women] on the basis ofthis argument.” Huquq un-Niswan(Lahore, 1898: 7-8)

But how could he best bring about thekind of change in attitude that headvocated? Writing a learned treatise suchas Huquq un-Niswan would reach only afew, well educated Muslims. The answer,Mumtaz Ali decided, was to reach womenwith an enlightened message. They neededto know what rights they had in theshariat. They could inherit property, andtherefore needed enough education to beable to manage it. Further, they needed tobe aware of contemporary ideasconcerning child rearing, health, nutrition,budgeting, etiquette, and so on.

Respectable Muslim women in the1890s did not usually go out to school,but a number of parda observing familieshad a tradition of home instruction. Whatwas missing was useful reading material.A woman who had nothing appropriate toread might relapse into illiteracy. A

newspaper written in simple Urdu,designed with women’s needs in mind,would help make women better wives,mothers, homemakers, and more devoutMuslims. Educated men whose desire foreducated wives was emerging at that time,would also respond positively to a moreenlightened home life, and their attitudes,too, might change.

Mumtaz Ali was aided in founding hiswomen’s newspaper by his wife,

Muhammadi Begam. This remarkablewoman is usually viewed simply as herhusband’s help-mate, but she was a strongpersonality in her own right. She waseducated at home, together with hernumerous brothers, and when they wentoff to school, she continued to learnsomewhat haphazardly from theirtextbooks. She learned to write letters inorder to stay in touch with her sister whenthe latter married and moved away. She

Some pages from “Ismat”

4 MANUSHI

managed her father’s household and caredfor the younger children when herstepmother was away visiting relatives.When she married, she continued hereducation under Mumtaz Ali’s tutelage,even as they founded their journal. Shemothered his two children from a previousmarriage, managed his household, andeventually bore their own son. MuhammadiBegam also served as editor of Tahzib un-Niswan and was, in addition, the authorof several novels, a cookbook, a manualof housekeeping, and books of etiquette.She died prematurely in 1908.

During its first decade, underMuhammadi Begam’s editorship, Tahzibaimed at reaching the parda observingwoman at home and meeting her need foruseful reading matter and broadenedhorizons. Articles discussed education,household management, gave goodadvice to the daughter-in-law on how toget along with her mother-in-law, and soon. A constant theme was the reform andsimplification of custom, the need toeliminate wasteful expenditure on rituals,dowry, ornaments. Mumtaz Ali’s views onwomen’s rights in Islamic law were alsoserialised in the paper.

Tahzib classified itself as a newspaper,so it carried a lot of news items, notices ofwomen’s meetings, of fundraising drivesfor schools, and summaries of speechesby women to women’s organisations. Theweekly format made possible a lot of give-and-take between the journal and itsreaders, in the letters to the editor section.One letter, for example, discussed thereasons why girls should learn English:“Nowadays, many girls are keen to learnEnglish, but their parents are displeasedby this. They feel that girls have no reasonto learn English, since they are not goingout to work in an office. They don’t realisethat boys who learn English also wouldlike wives who know English. It is myopinion that this is the reason why so manyunfortunate women sit home alone... Also,if they knew English, they could contactthe men in their offices in event of an

emergency...” (Tahzib un-Niswan, 4 April1907: 170.)

The style of this, and of the paper ingeneral was straightforward andconversational. Tahzib struck a balancebetween popular format and reformistsubstance. It maintained a clarity of stylewith a content that was both practical andedifying.

Later volumes of Tahzib reflectedwomen’s increased level of education andvariety of activities outside their homes.The style became somewhat morecomplex; the vocabulary expanded.Reports of women’s organisations andspeeches proliferated. In one such report,Mumtaz Ali commented: “Ever since thefounding of the Muslim Ladies’Conference four years ago, we have beeninterested in it, and always hoped that itwould be able to do something for reformin the community. I always thought,however, that it was premature... and anumber of people thought I was againstthe conference for that reason. But I am itswell-wisher... What do I mean when I saythe conference is premature? I mean that agreat deal of unusual and hard work willbe necessary or it will not be successful.”(TN, 6 April 1918 : 221-22.)

Other articles revealed that womenwere indeed receiving education in Englishas well as Urdu, and the paper printed thenames of women passing their BAs, MAs,and medical degrees, with warmcongratulations and exhortations to otherreaders to go and do likewise.

Articles began to appear on thecontemporary political scene, the eventsof world war I, noncooperation, andswadeshi. Women started collecting fundsfor political purposes: the Khilafatmovement and Turkish relief. In one appealthat combined these causes, Nazar SajjadHyder, wife of Syed Sajjad Hyder, herselfan Urdu novelist and short story writerand the mother of the contemporary Urduwoman novelist, Qurratulain Hyder, urged: “I am not asking you to give rupees but...give up foreign cloth and wear only

swadeshi...The day is coming when we willbe ashamed to go out without wearingkhaddar. Instead of burning your foreigncloth, send it to the Smyrna [Turkish Relief]Fund to be given to Turkish women whoneed warm clothes for winter.” (TN, 29October 1921 : 689-94.)

Readers also sent in travel accountsand descriptions of the haj pilgrimage.Literary criticism appeared. And a numberof younger women contributors began totake issue with the strictures of parda, withpolygamy, and with unilateral divorce. Bythe 1930s, the readers of Tahzib had comea long way.

Tahzib overcame initial opposition andsucceeded because it met a felt social need.Mumtaz Ali, after all, was not the onlyeducated Indian Muslim male of his timewho desired a more enlightened home life.Nor was Muhammadi Begam the onlyliterate Muslim woman of her time wholacked a source of news and an outlet forself expression. Tahzib articulated animpulse for reform of custom, of religiousobservance, and of household practicethat was essentially patriarchal. The desiresand opinions of men were behind theeffort, and the institution of parda and thesubordinate position of women in thefamily were in no way challenged. Further,the emphasis on the reform of custom infavour of scriptural religion challenged acultural realm in which women wererelatively autonomous.

Still, Mumtaz Ali’s attitudes, based onhis published interpretation of Islamic law,were remarkably egalitarian and hispartnership with Muhammadi Begam wasa close and creative one. Tahzib’s ideal ofdomesticity may now seem dated, but inthe first decades of this century, itsadvocacy of women’s education and ofbroader imaginative horizons for womenin parda were in advance of the times.Khatun

Another husband and wife who wereactive in the movement for women’seducation and who started a magazine forwomen were Shaikh Abdullah of Aligarh

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(1874-1965) and Waheed Jahan Begam(1886-1939). Shaikh Abdullah was aconvert to Islam who attended AligarhCollege, established a law practice in thattown, and married the educated sister ofone of his classmates. In 1904, they startedthe Urdu monthly Khatun as the journalof the Women’s Education Section of theAll-India Muslim Educational Conference.Shaikh was the secretary of the EducationSection, and the main purpose of thejournal was thus to advocate schools forgirls, especially the Abdullahs’ project tofound a girls’ school in Aligarh.

The Abdullahs established AligarhGirls’ School in 1906, and by 1914 hadraised money and built a hostel totransform their local school into a boardingschool, with clientele coming from a widerarea.

Waheed Jahan Begam devoted herenergies to running the school andsupervising the hostel. The school, whichstruggled to survive at first, later expandedto become the Women’s College ofAligarh Muslim University.

Khatun provides importantdocumentation for the history of Muslimwomen’s education. The Shaikh exhortedhis readers to found local associations toraise funds and start girls’ schools. Herecorded fundraising drives and his ownspeeches and reports to the annualmeetings of the Muslim EducationalConference. In one particularly interestingeditorial, cast in the form of a dialoguebetween himself (Editor) and a supporterof education (Hami), the Shaikh asked :

“Editor : From your words, am I tounderstand that you are a firm supporterof women’s education?

Hami: Why not? Anyone whoopposes women’s education in this dayand age is either illiterate (jahil) or mad(diwana).

Editor : But not being opposed towomen’s education is quite a differentmatter from supporting it... I simply wantedto ask if you were truly a supporter ofwomen’s education, or whether you were

simply among those who refrain fromopposing it.

Hami: (frowning) Please repeat yourquestion. I am not sure I understand.

Editor : Janab! I merely said thatanyone who is a genuine supporter ofwomen’s education would want to supportit by his actions, words, writing, and so

Shaikh Abdullah and Waheed Jahan Begam

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on. And if he had money, he would alsosupport the effort with a donation.”(Khatun, August 1912 : 46-47.)

Waheed Jahan too gave an occasionalspeech or wrote about management of theschool. In one speech at a meeting ofMuslim women gathered to voice supportfor girls’ education, she mentioned thatwomen in Turkey and Egypt were beingeducated and could hold meetings, andthis had been beneficial to their societies:“When women meet among themselves,there will be more solidarity... Now there isa division between educated anduneducated women. Uneducated women,who do not go out, think that respectabilityis confined to the four walls of theirhouses. They think that people who livebeyond those walls are not respectableand not worthy of meeting. But God hasordained education for both men andwomen, so that such useless ideas can begotten rid of.” (Khatun, January 1906 : 7-8.)

The journal also contained muchdiscussion of educational matters,curricula, the pros and cons of teachingEnglish to women, the need for improvedtextbooks, the students’ need for fresh airand exercise (behind high walls so thatparda could be maintained), reports ofmeetings of women’s associations andschool committees, and speeches bywomen, including the Begam of Bhopal,the chief patron of Aligarh Girls’ School.Reporting on the Begam’s speech beforethe inaugural function of the hostelbuilding in 1914, Khatun noted that thedoors of the hall had stuck when she triedto open them, prompting her to quip thatthis symbolised the obstacles still facingMuslim girls’ education. (Khatun Feb.-March 1914 : 35, 44-54.)

Women’s views on educationappeared in its pages, but Khatun waschiefly addressed to the members andpatrons of the Muslim EducationalConference, that is, the educated elite ofthe Muslim community, largely men.Shaikh Abdullah wrote clearly and

persuasively in Urdu, but without manyconcessions to the need for a simplifiedstyle to reach a newly literate femalereadership. One exception to this

nothing. Everyone says that our gari [train/cart—the double meaning is intended] willreach its destination, but no one seems tobe willing to hitch it to an engine, or ahorse, or even a bullock and then everyoneregrets that the cart is sitting in one place.If this keeps up, we will never getanywhere.” (Khatun, August 1904 : 41-44.)

Khatun’s purpose was to promotewomen’s education. Providing women withuseful household information, tips onchildrearing, and embroidery patterns wasleft to publications closer to the style ofTahzib. Khatun fulfilled its purpose, butin 1914, with the opening of the hostel, theAbdullahs had a great deal to do to runthe boarding school, and so Khatunceased publication.Ismat

The third in this trio of early women’smagazines in Urdu is Ismat of Delhi,founded in 1908 by Rashidul Khairi (1868-1936), whose chief claim to fame was as anUrdu novelist. He was the nephew ofanother famous Urdu novelist, “Deputy”Nazir Ahmad (1830-1912). Rashidul Khairi,during his prolific career as a novelist,earned the nickname musavvir-e-gham(“portrayer of sorrow”) for hismelodramatic and extremely popularstories about the tragic lives of oppressedwomen. His earnings from his novelshelped him to finance Ismat, a monthlywhich was founded primarily as a literaryjournal, to encourage creative writing bywomen. It also contained a substantialamount of writing by Rashidul Khairi and

A title page of “Khatun,” 1908

observation simply proves the rule, for awonderfully idiomatic article by oneA.W.J. Begam from Delhi was in strikingcontrast to most of the other educationalarticles in the journal. “I have heard a lotof noise about the fact that the quest for

“Anyone who opposes women’s education in this day and age iseither illiterate (jahil) or mad (diwana)

knowledge has not reached Muslimwomen, and that they are not interested ineducation in any way. People makespeeches at meetings and write articles innewspapers... But if you ask them whatthey have done to spread knowledgeamong women... the answer is simply

other men, articles designed to promotewomen’s education and the respectabledomesticity so favored by social reformersof the day, whether Hindu or Muslim.

Reading Rashidul Khairi’s novelsgives one a clue to his attitudes towardwomen, their education and

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enlightenment. An early work, Hayat-e-Saleha or Salehat, is the story of thebeloved and well educated daughter of anelderly man who, having lost his wife,remarries. The ignorant stepmotherdecides to marry off this daughter to herwastrel younger brother. Since her fatheragrees to the plan, the daughter alsoaccepts it. She makes an exemplary wifeand mother, but is unappreciated by herworthless husband. Her father eventuallydies, and so does she. The heroine, Saleha,even though educated, is ill used by herfather and husband, but she remainsdutiful and uncomplaining. Many ofRashidul Khairi’s heroines die, often ofconsumption. They are then honoured indeath, unlike in life. One begins to see whyhe was dubbed “the painter of sorrow,”and one suspects that the ghost ofRashidul Khairi lurks among today’sBombay film writers.

The first issue of Ismat containedstories, poems, several articles oneducation, one on housekeeping, adescription of the Taj Mahal, and severalletters of welcome. One of those letterswas from Waheed Jahan Begam Abdullah;one of the poems was by MuhammadiBegam Mumtaz Ali. The issue alsocontained a statement of purpose: Ismatwas a journal in Urdu for “respectableIndian women,” which would containedifying articles dealing with scientific andeducational subjects, literature, and usefulknowledge, but no political articles. It alsoaimed to “make the sanctuary sanctified”(haram ki harmat qaim rakhna) or “asthe English saying goes, to make the homea castle,” to “bring progress to the worldof women,” and to “advance the cause ofwomen’s literature.” (Ismat, June 1908,appendix.)

If one couples the name of the journal(Ismat means purity or chastity) with itsstatement of aims, and compares thesewith the plots of Khairi’s novels, onesenses a unity of purpose in his literaryendeavours. Ismat assumed the modesty,honour, and respectability, but also

passivity, of its readers. It viewed womenas the objects of a programme ofamelioration. The home was to become a“sanctuary” (the double meaning of theword haram is significant); progress andenlightenment were to be brought towomen.

Such a view of women is highlyconventional. It coincides with the visionof women in Khairi’s novels. No matterhow well educated and competent hisheroines may be, they are always dutiful,

even to the men who oppress them. Theyare victims, incapable of defendingthemselves because they are devoted tothe overriding ideals of obedience andfidelity. Some women criticised Khairi forthis aspect of his writings. In an exampleof the early literary criticism that appearedin Tahzib un-Niswan, a woman noted: “Hecaptures women’s idiom better thananyone... But his books, whose subjectsdeal with happenings that we see everyday are not very realistic... [He shows]

A cover of “Ismat”, February 1938

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women’s weakness and inferiority, but thisportrayal gives us nothing to build on orbe proud of. It shows what should bechanged without giving us any notion ofhow to get out of the situation... He doesn’treally help anyone [by showing] womenin a state of crying day and night.” (TN, 9July 1921 : 433-35)

To end the oppression of women,according to Rashidul Khairi, men had toundergo a change of heart. Consequently,in the early years of Ismat, unlike in Tahzibun-Niswan, there was little, if any,discussion of women’s rights in Islam.Rather, the journal contained articles andstories designed to inform women abouthow to make their husbands’ lives morecomfortable, what sorts of difficulties theywould encounter (and have to bearpatiently) when they married and went tolive with their in-laws, and so on.

In one article, entitled “Have OurWomen Made Progress?”, Rashidul Khairioutlined what he thought were importantindicators of change: “Let us simply lookat what are the differences between

important reason for the journal’semphasis on respectablity : Ismat hopedto avoid the kinds of moral objections andattacks that other women’s journals suchas Tahzib, had met. In this, it wassuccessful. Ismat’s circulation by 1912 hadreached 900, much better than Tahzib’sduring its fourth year of life.

To be fair to Rashidul Khairi, however,his concern for purity, honour, andrespectability was not a facade. Hismorality was highly conventional, but tochampion the cause of women’seducation, to urge women to expressthemselves in print, and to urge men toundergo a change of heart required a gooddeal of courage at that time.

An example of his writing, addressedto men, urging them to end their injusticeto women is the following passage fromTamaddun, another one of his journals.The tone is typically lachrymose : “Thestory of women’s rights is heartrending.Women are oppressed day and night andfind no relief from their fate. Blessed willbe that time when a spirit of sympathy [for

“Nowadays, women... recognise better the tenets of theirreligion, and that one of its most important commandments is

to seek knowledge.”

formerly and now in daughters anddaughters-in-law. Nowadays, womenrealise that their duty is not simply topopulate the world, but actually to bringabout some betterment... There is nodenying the fact that today’s wives aretrying to improve the condition of theirhomes. This is significant. They alsorecognise better the tenets of their religionand that one of its most importantcommandments is to seek knowledge.” (Ismat, October 1912, 2-6)

The didactic purpose of Ismat was asclear as that of Rashidul Khairi’s novels,and neither challenged traditional femaleroles or male authority. There was an

women] will spread [among men] upon theearth. Torment will change into paradiseand sorrows will change into happiness.Even when going to their graves,husbands do not recognise theoppression they have visited upon theirwives. Nor has news of the rights whichIslam has given them reached women’sears.” (Tamaddun, March 1913, cited inRashidul Khairi, Ismat ki Kahani (Delhi1936: 12.)

Rashidul Khairi would have beenhorrified, however, if women had starteddemanding their own rights. Confirmationof this point came in 1918, when theAnjuman-e Khawatin-e Islam, otherwise

known as the All-India Muslim Ladies’Conference, meeting in Lahore, passed aresolution condemning polygamy. Theresolution stated that: “...the kind ofpolygamy practised by certain sections ofthe Muslims is against the spirit of theQuran and of Islam, and that it is inimicalto our progress as a community”, andcalled upon women to exercise theirinfluence to end the practice.

Rashidul Khairi, much to the shock ofmany loyal readers of Ismat, attacked theresolution : “We regret greatly that wivesand daughters of respectable Muslimscould agree to such a thing... I am notmyself a supporter of polygamy, but for aMuslim meeting to make such adeclaration, in the presence of non-Muslims [some Englishwomen werepresent] only brings hatred upon Islam andhas a detrimental effect on the minds ofyoung Muslim girls. It also goes againstthe meaning of the shariat.” (Ismat, March1918: 8.)

The women were astonished, becauseRashidul Khairi had exposed the evils ofpolygamy in several of his novels and hadmade clear his own position that no mancould do justice to more than one woman,in the spirit of the Quranic injunction. Yet,when women themselves addressed theproblem and invoked the spirit of theQuran, as opposed to its letter, RashidulKhairi fell back upon the letter, saying thatsince Islam permitted polygamy, it wouldnot do for Muslim women to seek itsabolition. A number of women criticisedhim for his inconsistency, and yet hisstance is quite consistent with his positionthat men must be the reformers of societyand the improvers of women, not womenthemselves. His position is thus internallyconsistent, whether or not one agrees withit.

Rashidul Khairi’s writings overflowwith sympathy for the oppressed womenof the Indian Muslim community. Heregarded himself as a champion ofwomen’s rights within the Islamic tradition,and for his time, he certainly was. It took

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courage to expose the social evils that hedescribed in his works, such as polygamyand unilateral divorce. It took talent to doso and simultaneously to be one of thebiggest bestsellers in the history of theUrdu novel.

Rashidul Khairi with his wife and grandchildren, 1933

The modern reader may find hischaracters stereotypical, his plots maudlinand repetitive, and his view of womencondescending and patriarchal. But RashidKhairi was a pioneer. He founded hisjournal to encourage women writers, and

it did so, giving rise to many who went onto write openly about subjects that hesurely would have disapproved. Ismatmoved to Karachi in 1947 and continuedto appear from there until recently. Itspages contained the writings of many ofthe great Urdu women writers of thetwentieth century.Conclusions

The three Urdu women’s magazinesdiscussed here are only a few examples ofthe genre, though Tahzib un-Niswan andIswat both had very long careers andhence provide the historian with a gaugeof social and attitudinal changes over time.All three were started by men, two withthe close collaboration of their wives. Allthree championed women’s education anddefined greater enlightenment for womenin terms of competent domesticity ratherthan in terms of individual autonomy.When they addressed religious questions,they supported a scriptural standard ratherthan folk or customary practice, meaningthat they played down women’s rituals orcondemned them as superstitious.

In setting up social norms for women,these journals defined those standards interms that men could recognise. Womenaccepted such norms as well, but in theprocess may have surrendered somecontrol over their own sphere. The legacyof these socially reforming journals is thusambiguous. As women became educatedand as they read these journals andbecame more aware of the external worldand its values, their definition of what wasacceptable, or respectable, was moreclosely controlled by what men thought.It took several generations before a newerstandard evolve, but these earlymagazines at least gave women a placewhere their voices could be heard.