Transcript of Mr Uhuru Kenyatta's Status Conference February 5, 2014 at The Hague
Transcript (Day C061) 3 February
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ROYALCOMMISSIONINTOINSTITUTIONALRESPONSESTOCHILDSEXUALABUSE
PublicHearing CaseStudy22(DayC0061)
Court3.3,CountyCourtofVictoria250WilliamStreet,Melbourne
OnTuesday,3February2015at10.00am
BeforeThePresidingMember: JusticeJenniferAnnCoateCommissioners: MrRobertFitzgeraldAM
MrAndrewMurray
CounselAssisting: MsMariaGerace
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1 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Goodmorning,MsGerace.2
3 MSGERACE: Goodmorning,YourHonour. Couldwestart4 thismorningbycallingwitnessZephaniahWaks,please.
5
6
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1 A. Yes,yes,"I"insteadofa"U".2
3 Q. Andtheninparagraph64thewords"thatmyfamily4 faced"shouldbe"my"ratherthan"may"?5 A. Yes.6
7 Q. Saveforthoseamendments,isthecontentofthis8 statementtrueandcorrecttothebestofyourknowledge
9 andbelief?10 A. 100percent,yes.11
12 Q. BeforeItakeyoutoyourstatement,MrWaks,youare13 thefatherofMannyWaks,whoweheardfromyesterdayand14 alsothefatheroftwootherboyswhowereabusedwhilst15 theywerestudentsatYeshivahCollege?16 A. Yes,correct.
1718 Q. Andyouarethefatherofhowmanychildren?
19 A. Seventeen.20
21 Q. AndyouhavebeenpartoftheChabadLubavitch22 movementfromthetimeofyouryouth;isthatright?23 A. Icametoitlater,butforthelast45yearsorso.24
25 Q. AndpartoftheYeshivahcommunityfromthetimeyou26 movedtoAustralia;isthatright?27 A. Evenoverseas,thewholetimesincethenfrombefore
28
I
left
Australia.
29
30 Q. Andwasacentralpartofthatmovementyour31 involvementwiththeYeshivahCentreinMelbourne?32 A. Yes,ofcourse. Welivedrightopposite. Webought33 theplacethereespeciallyforthat. Thekidswentto34 schoolwithoutcrossingtheroad. Allthefacilitieswere35 there,thesynagogue,theschool,boysandgirls,mikveh.36 Everythingwasthere.37
38 Q. Didallofyourchildrenattendschoolatthe39 Yeshivah?40 A. Yes. CanIaddsomethingtothatbecauseit's41 somethingthatpeopledon'tcompletelyunderstand. Asa42 memberoftheChabadmovementyoureallyhadtosendyour43 childrenjusttothatschool. InMelbourne,eventhough44 therewasatleastoneotherschoolthatwouldhavebeen45 suitableonareligiouslevel,sociallyitistotally46 unacceptabletodoit. Soanysuggestionthatyoushould47 havetakenyourkidsoutoftheschoolordonesomething
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1 else,itwouldhavemeantleavingAustralia,notjust2 Melbourne. There'snowhereelseyoucouldsendyourkids
3 toschool. Itwasn'tanoption.4
5 Q. Wasanaspectofthefaith,theultraOrthodoxfaith6 withinChabad,thatyourchildrenshouldbeeducatedina
7 particularwayreligiously?8 A. Yes,notevenjustreligiously,butparticularly9 withintheChabadframework,veryparticular.
10
11 Q. Afocusinthewayinwhichreligiousstudieswere12 undertaken?13 A. Correct.14
15 Q. Andafocusonthewayofpracticeofdaytodayfaith16 ofstudents?
17
A.
Exactly.
A
particular
emphasis.
Exactly.
18
19 Q. Sowasitexpected,isthatyourevidence,that20 parentswhohadchildrenthattheywantedtorearwithin21 theultraOrthodoxortheChabadcommunityeducatedthemat22 aChabadinstitution?23 A. Only,andRabbiGronerwasveryballisticaboutpeople24 whotookkidsout. That'sabsolutely Iknowone25 particularcase,Ihadonekidthatlearntsomewhereelse26 butonlybecausehewasexactlyinanagegroupwherehe27 couldn'tyetgototheoldergroup,YeshivahGedolaiswhat28
it's
called,
and
he
didn't
have
a
class
at
his
age
group
29 learningonlyreligiousstudiesintheschool. Sothere30 wasnooption. Theycouldn'tdoanythingelse. Sohewas,31 unwillinglyorwhatever,butallowedtogosomewhereelse32 withoutanymajorproblembeingraised. Butnobodyelse33 coulddoit. OneotherpersonthatIknowdiditbecause34 ofaveryinterestingreasonwhy,buthesentthekidsto35 Adass,theotherultraOrthodoxschoolinMelbourne,andhe36 wasessentiallyoutoftheChabadcommunityeventhoughhe37 wasstillChabadandsomeofhiskidswenttolearnin
38
Chabad
institutions
overseas
afterwards,
but
within
Chabad39 Melbourneitwasjustdespised.
40
41 Q. Whatwouldyousaytothesuggestionthenthatit42 wouldappearthattobepartofthecommunitytherewere43 expectationsonmembersaboutthewaytheydidcertain44 thingsandoneofthemiseducatingtheirchildrenwithina45 Chabadschool?46 A. There'sexpectationsonalmosteverything. That's47 fairenough. It'snotlookedatasaparticularlyonerous
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1 thingwhenyouarepartofthatgroup.2
3 Q. Justifyoucouldhelpusunderstandalittlebit4 aboutwhatitmeanttobeChabad. Wherewasthefocus5 withinChabadon,say,religiousstudiesoradherenceto6 OrthodoxpreceptsorthewayinwhichChabadapplied7 Orthodoxprecepts? Couldyouhelpusunderstandwhatthat8 meantformembersofthecommunityonadaytodaybasis,
9 forinstance?10 A. Okay. Again,togetitclear,theschoolandthe11 centreisreallybrokenupintoprobablythreegroups.12 TherearepeoplethatarehardcoreChabad,withlongbeards13 andeverythinglikethat. Thentherearepeoplethatare14 stronglyreligiousandthentheyattendthesynagogueand15 everythinglikethat,buttheyarenotChabad,buttheydo16 sendtheirkidsthere. Thentherearepeoplealso,groups
17
from
within
Melbourne,
they
really
aren't
affiliated
with18 Chabadatallandsomeofthemaren'tevenreligiousand
19 theyalsosendtheirkidstothatschool. Sothereare20 threegroupslikethat. Sowithinthegroupthatare21 actuallyhardcoreChabad,thereisaparticularapproachto22 Judaismwhichisbasedverymuchonaverystrict23 interpretationandfulfillingthecommandmentsandJewish24 lawandeverythinglikethat,withaparticulartwistof25 verymuchintooutreach. It'savery,youknow,niceidea26 andpeopletakeitveryseriously. Havinganopenhouse,27 dealingwithpeoplethatarenotreligiousandtreating28
them
very
nicely,
not
looking
down
on
them,
as
some
other
29 groupsdo.30
31 There'sstillanelementofcomplacencyandfeeling32 youareabithigher,butingeneraltherewasdefinitelya33 goodsidetoitofgoingoutandbringingotherpeople34 closetoJudaism. ThelateLubavitchRebbewasvery35 strong,thataftertheHolocaustyoureallyhadtodo36 somethingwiththelittlebitthatwaslefttokeepJewsto37 beJewish,otherwisethewholethingwoulddieout. Sohe
38
was
very
much
into
that,
that
even
people
at
their
own39 expenseofdoingwhattheywoulddoandotherpeople
40 learningalotanddelvingintotheJewishlawandstudy41 it,hewouldbeplacingtheemphasisongoingoutin42 outreach,goingandlivinginplaceswheretherewereno43 otherJews,veryfew,noamenities. Ihaveakidnowin44 Americalivingonacampus. Therearenoamenitiesinthe45 townandthereareJewishstudentsthere. Thatiswhyhe46 hasgonethere. Butthattypeofthing.47
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1 Q. Whenyousaidearlier,yousaidthe"late2 Chabad/Yeshivah",wereyoureferringtothelateLubavitch3 Rebbeandhisfocusofoutreach?
4 A. Yes,hewasverystrongonthat,morethananyother5 personandmorethananyotherLubavitchRebbe. Buthe
6 reallyputtheemphasisonthat,onoutreach.7
8 Q. Andwasyourunderstandingofhismissiontocreate9 theoutreachfocustoprovideandstrengthentheJewish
10 movementaftertheHolocaust?11 A. Yes.12
13 Q. Andwhenyoudescribeoutreach,doyoumeanboth14 charityaswellasbringingpeopleclosertoJudaismordo15 youmeanbringingpeopleclosertoJudaism?16 A. Whateverisrequiredtobringpeoplecloserto
17
Judaism.
Other
groups
did
place
I
would
say
a
stronger18 emphasisoncharityandvisitingthesickandeverything
19 likethat. Hereeverythingwasgearedtowardsthat,ina20 goodway. I'mnotevensayingitinanegativewayatall.21 Thepeoplethatdiditatleast,theleadersI'mabitmore22 scepticalaboutnow,butthepractitionersweredoingitin23 a theyfelttheyhadtodoitanditwastherightthing24 andtheyunderstood.25
26 Q. SothefocuswasonstrengtheningtheJewish27 community?28
A.
Yes.
29
30 Q. BringingpeopleclosertotheJewishcommunity?31 A. Jewsthathadlosttheirwayorhadneverbeen32 educated,peoplewhohadcomefromRussiathathadnever33 hadachancetodoanything,peopleborninAustralialike34 myself. Icametoitatage20,let'ssay,exactlyfrom35 thattypeofthing,someonewhohadgoneout. Aprofessor36 ofmathematicsinSydney,Iwenttoatalkofhisand37 that'showIbecameinvolved. Ihadbeentotallysecular
38
until
then.39
40 Q. IntermsofbringingthemclosertoJudaism,wasthe41 focusofthemovementtobringthemclosertoOrthodox42 JudaismaspractisedwithinChabad?43 A. Correct.44
45 Q. Earlierinyourevidenceyoudescribed,perhaps46 loosely,yourowndescriptionofhowpeoplewithinChabad47 were Ithinkyouusedtheword"hardcore",thosemore
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1 moderateormiddleoftheline,andthosewhoperhapswere,2 whatevertheirmanifestationoffaithwas,alittleless3 thanmiddleoftheline. Whenyouhadyourchildrenatthe4 YeshivahCentre,sogoingbackwhentheywereyoungerand5 wereatschool,wherewouldyouhaveclassifiedyourself
6 withinthatcategory?7 A. Rightuntilvery,veryrecentlyIwashardcoreChabad,8 totallyintoeverything. WhenIwasintheprivatehearing9 Istillhadalongbeard. Ihavespecificallytakenitoff
10 nowandthatmakesastatement. I'mnothardcoreChabadat11 allnow.12
13 Q. Whendidthatshift,thatchangefromhardcoreChabad?14 A. Formyself?15
16 Q. Foryourself?
17
A.
Over
these
last
four
years,
once
I
realised
that18 peopleweren'tgoingtochange,anditwasn'tjustthe
19 leaders,thecommunitiesthemselvesweren'tgoingto20 change,Ijustreallywasn'tinterested. SoI'mstilla21 practisingOrthodoxJew,butnotinthatstrainanymore.22
23 Q. Whenyousaythelastfouryears,areyoutalking24 abouttheeventsthatyoudescribeinyourstatement?25 A. Correct.26
27 Q. FromthetimeofMannyWaksdisclosinghisabuse?28
A.
Correct.
29
30 Q. JustbeforeItakeyoutoyourstatement,couldyou31 helpustounderstandwhatitmeant,thedaytoday32 practiceforyouwithinChabad,withinthehardcorearea,33 whatwasthefocusofeachdayorwasthereaparticular34 focusinthewaythefaithwasexercised? Couldyouhelp35 ustounderstandwhattheinvolvementintheYeshivah36 communitymeant?37 A. Theprayerinthemorningisanhour,let'ssay,let's
38
say
for
hardcore
people.
Prayer
is
stressed.
Let's
say
39 it'sanhourinthemorning. LaterinthedayIworked40 fromhome,soIwouldnormallygo,Iwouldhaveanotherone41 ortwohoursofJewishlearningduringthedayandit's42 rightacrosstheroad,sothat'sanothertwohours. Inthe43 afternoonservice,anotherthreequartersofanhour.44 Ioftenusedtolearnbetweentheafternoonandtheevening45 serviceandthenthenightservice. Intheafternoon46 there'sanotherhourandahalf,twohours. Soit'savery47 significantpartoftheday. Imighthavedoneabitmore
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1 thanotherpeoplebecauseIhadtheluxuryofworkingfrom2 home,butmanypeoplewouldhavehadaverysimilarthing.
3 ThenyouhavethefocusoninvitingpeoplefortheSabbath.4 Wehadanopenhome. Itwaswellknowninthecommunity.5 Mywifewasinvolvedin evenatthetimewhenshewas6 bringingupallthekidsshewasheavilyinvolvedinthe7 women'sorganisation. Shewasthepresidentatvarious8 times. Sheusedtoorganisemanyofthefunctions. She's9 averygoodorganiserandverycharismatic. Thatwasour
10 wholelife. Welivedthere. Allourfriendswerefrom11 there. SometimesIusedtobeasked,"Doyouhaveany12 peopleoutsidethecommunity? Doyouhaveanygentile13 friends?" Isaid,"Ireallydon'thavetimeforit."14 Idon'thaveaproblem,butthere'snotime.15
16 Q. WoulditbefairthentodescribetheYeshivahCentre
17
and
the
various
activities
undertaken
in
the
Yeshivah18 Centretohavebeentheepicentreformanyoftheir
19 daytodaylifewiththeChabadcommunity?20 A. 100percent. ThepeoplethatIwouldcallhardcore,21 thatwouldbetheirepicentre. Exactly. Theirkidsare22 allgoingtoschoolthere. Inmanycasesbothparentsare23 teachingthere. Alltheiractivitiesarethere;exactly.24
25 Q. Justbecauseyouhaveraisedacoupleoftermsthat26 perhapsoutsideofthecommunitymaynotbewidelyknown,27 youtalkedaboutShabbat?28
A.
Yes.
29
30 Q. Couldyoutellusalittlebitaboutwhat 31 A. TheSabbathisfromFridaynightuntilSaturdaynight.32 Youdon'tdriveinyourcar. Youdon'ttravel. Youdon't33 useanyelectricalappliances. It'sjustforprayer,34 learningandbeingwiththefamilyandeatingplenty.35 That'swhatit'sfor,andit'sthetimewhenyouhave36 guests. Sowealwayshad wehaveatablethatseats37 about20people,whichevenatthetimewhenwehadmany
38
less
children
that's
when
we
got
it
because
we
would
often39 haveatablewith20,25peopleatthetableonaFriday
40 night. Peoplethathaveneverhadachance notjust41 friendsatall;therewouldalwaysbepeoplewhohad42 nothingtodowithJudaismintheirpast. Sothatwouldbe43 thefocusoftheSabbath.44
45 Q. Intermsofthedinner,isthatsomethingthat's46 referredtoastheShabbatdinner?47 A. Yes.
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1
2 Q. AndisthatthecommunalaspectoftheShabbatdinner,3 invitingguestsandIassumebeinginvitedinturntoother4 people'shomes
5 A. Wewereneverinvitedbecauseofthenumberofkids.6 Untilalmosteverybodylefthome,wewereneverinvited,7 ever,anditwasn'tbecauseweweren'tfriendly.8
9 Q. Youjustcouldn'tbeaccommodated,isthatright?10 A. Yes,itwasverydifficult.11
12 Q. Atleastthenfromyourperspectiveinvitingpeople13 over 14 A. Yes,it'sfunnyyouaskthat. Itwasahighlight,the15 firstinvitationwegot,youknow,wasonlyafewyearsago16 whenweonlyhad,let'ssay,twokidswithus.
1718 Q. Youwerealittlebiteasiertofitinthen?
19 A. Mmmhmm.20
21 Q. Butthataspectofcommunityaspractisedbyinviting22 peopletoShabbatdinner,isthatanimportantaspectof23 beingwithintheChabadcommunity,thesenseofconnection24 withothers?25 A. Yes.26
27 Q. Andthesharingofthatreligioustimewitheach
28
other?
29 A. That'sright,becauseItoldyouinChabadit's30 outreach,sothat'stheperfecttimetodoit. Coming31 along. Seeingthecandles. Everybodyhastimetosit32 togetherandtalk. Soitisaveryauspicioustimetobe33 abletodooutreachinaverynaturalway. That'swhy34 Iparticularly Fridaynightisaparticulartime. Wedid35 itperhapsalittlemorethanothers,butmany,manypeople36 doit. It'saverywidespreadthing.37
38
Q.
All
right,
Mr
Waks,
I
will
take
you
to
your
statement.
39 BeforeIdothat,YourHonour,couldItenderthestatement40 ofZephaniahWaks,27January2015.41
42 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Exhibit225.43
44 EXHIBIT#225STATEMENTOFZEPHANIAHWAKS45
46 MSGERACE: MrWaks,couldIaskyoutoread,please,part47 ofyourstatementfirstlystartingfromparagraph3andup
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1 toandincludingparagraph10,stoppingjustbeforethe2 disclosureofabusebyKramer,please?
3 A. MyfullnameisZephaniahWaks. Mydateofbirthis4 22June1949. IammarriedtoHayaWaks. Wemetatthe5 headquartersoftheChabadLubavitch(Chabad)movementin
6 CrownHeightsinBrooklyn,NewYork,UnitedStatesof7 America. WemarriedinIsraelin1974. Ourfamilythen8 movedtoSydneyin1984andthentoMelbournein1985.9 UponmovingtoVictoriamyfamilyandIlivedinStKilda
10 EastdirectlyacrosstheroadfromtheYeshivahCentre11 Melbourne. Ourfamilyhomeiscurrentlyonthemarketfor12 sale.13
14 HayaandIhave17children,comprisedofsix15 daughtersand11sons. AllofmysonsattendedYeshivah16 CollegeinStKildaEast,Melbourne. YeshivahCollegeisa
17
Jewish
day
school
for
boys
run
by
the
Yeshivah
Centre.18 YeshivahCollegeandtheYeshivahCentresharethesame
19 grounds.20
21 Threeofmysonsweresexuallyabusedbymembersof22 theYeshivahCollegeandCentrecommunity. Myeldestson23 MannywasabusedbyDavidCyprysand[AVP]. Twootherof24 mysonswereabusedbyDavidKramer,orRabbiDavid25 Kramer 26
27 Q. MrWaks,couldIaskyoutojustslowdown,forpeople28
following
and
also
those
recording?
29 A. Sorry,sorry. Thebusinessabouttherabbi,youare30 goingtoaskmeaboutthatlater,areyou?31
32 Q. Iam,yes?33 A. Ifirstbecameawareofallegationsofsexualabuse34 againstCyprysinlate1991orearly1992,whenDetective35 DonahuefromtheVictoriaPolicechildexploitationsquad36 rangme. HetoldmethatManny'snamehadcomeupin37 relationtoaninvestigationintoCyprysandheaskedmeto
38
speak
with
Manny
with
a
view
to
finding
out
if
he
knew39 anythingaboutCyprysandtoletMannyknowthatthepolice
40 wereinterestedinspeakingwithhim. Ididspeakwith41 Manny,whosaidhewasnotinterestedinspeakingtothe42 police. IassumedthatMannywasawitnessinrelationto43 anassaultonanotherboy. ItoldDetectiveDonaghuethat44 Mannydidnotwanttospeakwithhimandleftitatthat.45
46 NotlongafterwardsIbecameawarethatCypryshad47 beenchargedwithindecentlyassaultingaboywhohadbeen
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1 atschoolwithManny. Irecallthatthebarristerwho2 representedCyprys,RobertSeifman,wasacongregantatthe
3 YeshivahSynagogue. ThechargeandthefactthatCyprys4 receivedagoodbehaviourbondwaswidelyknownandtalked
5 aboutintheYeshivahcommunity.6
7 Q. Thankyou. MrWaks,Idon'tknowwhetheryouhavehad8 theopportunitytoseethepseudonymlist,buttheperson9 yourefertointhisparagraph10,theboywhoyouhad
10 heardabouthadbeenassaultedbyCyprys,wasthatthe11 witnessreferredtointheseproceedingsas[AVR]? Doyou12 haveacopyofthepseudonymlistinfrontofyou?13 A. Yes,butIdon'tevenknowwho[AVR]is.14
15 Q. Okay.16 A. Itrings I'mprettysurethatthat'sthename,yes.
1718 Q. SodoIunderstandthenwhenyousayherewhatyou
19 heardwasthataboythathadbeenatschoolwithMannywas20 aboywhohadbeenassaultedbyCyprys?21 A. Yes.22
23 Q. Butyouweren'tpreciselysurewhoitwas?24 A. Ididn'tknowthepersonandIthinkthekidsall25 said theyprobablysaidhisnameatthetime. But26 Ididn'tknowthepersonandIdon'tthinkhewasinthe27 classwithanyofmykids. Ihadsixboysinarow,so28
I
had
kids
in
classes
with
a
lot
of
people
but
I
don't
29 thinkhewasintheclass. It'snotsomeoneIknew.30 Iwouldn'thaverecognisedhim.31
32 Q. Didyoucomeacrossthisinformation,thisknowledge33 thatCypryshadbeenchargedandreceivedabond,justbya34 conversationinthecommunity?35 A. Correct. Itwaswidelyknown. Itwasnotknownby36 everybody,Ibelieve,butitwasknownverywidely.37
38
Q.
And
even
to
the
point
of
knowing
what
he
actually
got
39 whenhewenttocourt;isthatright?40 A. Yes.41
42 Q. Andthiswasataboutthetimeofthecharge;isthat43 whatyouaretalkingabout?44 A. Yes,somethinglikethat,yes. Yes,ifitwasexactly45 thenoramonthlaterorsomething,itwasaroundthen.46 I'mprettysureweknewaboutitbeforehewenttocourt47 andeverythinglikethat. I'mprettysure.
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1
2 Q. AnddidyouknowRobertSeifman?3 A. Ididn'tknowhimpersonally,butIdidn'thavea4 particularlygoodopinionofhim,no.5
6 Q. Leavethataside.7 A. Okay,sorry.8
9 Q. Butyouknewwhohewasfromthesynagogue,didyou?10 A. Yes,Iknewhewasinthe....11
12 Q. Yes?13 A. Justthathelookedlikeabarristerthat yes.14
15 Q. Wewon'tgothere.16 A. No,wewon'tgothere.
1718 Q. CanItakeyoutoparagraphnumber8,please. Inthis
19 statementyouamendedittoread youwantedtosay20 somethingaboutDavidKramer,referringtohimasRabbi21 Kramer?22 A. Sorry,justwhatIsaidbefore,whenIsaidwhat23 Ithoughtofhim,Ididn'treallyknowhimbeforethat,but24 whenIheardthatsomeonedefendedthatguyinthatwayand25 gothimoff,thatmadeaverystrongimpressiononmeat26 thetime. EventhoughIdidn'tknowanymore,Iwasvery27 troubledbythat.28
29 Q. Allright. Iunderstand. Itwasn'tpersonal,just30 therole?31 A. No,Ididn'tknowhimatall.32
33 Q. Thankyouforclarifying. Canwecomebacknowto34 DavidKramerandlateroninyourstatementyousaidyou35 wantedtorefertohimasRabbiKramer?36 A. Yes.37
38 Q. WhatdidyouwanttotelltheCommissionaboutthat?39 A. Well,becausethishasbeenpartofthe whenthings40 havecomeouthesuddenlybecomesunrabbiedandthisis41 somethingallovertheworld. ShouldIlookonlyatyou42 or 43
44 Q. No,feelfree.45 A. Itisveryimportanttounderstandthatinthe46 Yeshivahitselfandeverywherejustaboutintheworldthey47 trytoafterwards suddenlyarabbiisnotarabbiand
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1 theywillfindatechnicalreasonwhyhedidn'tpracticeas2 arabbi. Buthewasarabbi. He'scalledrabbi. Hewas3 knownasrabbiatschoolandit'sabsolutelywidespread.4 HewasknownasRabbiKramer. Hehadordination. He
5 wasn'tpractisingasarabbiandthereareplentyofpeople6 likethat. Butforallnormalconnotationsit'sjust7 tryingtogiveasnowjobonpeopletonotcallhimrabbi,8 andit'sparticular. It'snotanomission,it'svery
9 particular. It'sallpartofthisthing,inmyopinion,of10 denyingliability,whitewashing. "It'snotus. It's11 somebodyelse. He'snotarabbiandhe'snotthis. It's12 somebodyelse." It'snot,"Wewouldneverdothistypeof13 thingandwedon'tallowit." Andit'sjustincorrect.14
15 Q. Socertainlyatthetimeyoutaughtyourchildren,you16 andyourchildrenasfarasyouareawarealwaysreferred
17
to
him
as
Rabbi
Kramer?18 A. Yes. Wewerepersonalfriends,sowewouldhave
19 calledhimDavidaswell. Buteverybodyreferred hewas20 knownasRabbiKramer.21
22 Q. Ithinkyougointothatlateroninyourstatementas23 partofthesurpriseforyouinthedisclosuresbecauseat24 thetimeRabbiKramerwasyourfriend?25 A. Correct.26
27 Q. Andyouhadalottodowithhisfamily?28
A.
Mmm
hmm.
29
30 Q. IncludingcelebratingtheSabbath?31 A. Mmmhmm. Theywerebothfromoutoftown. Hiswife32 wasIsraeli,aswasmywife. Hewasn'taclosepersonal33 friendofminebecausehewasmuchyoungerthanme. Butwe34 werefamilyfriendsandthefamilieshadafewkidsofthe35 sameage. AsI'msaying,itwasparticularlyfromthe36 wivesandthefactthattheywerestrangersfromoutof37 townaswell. Theyhadonlyrecentlycome.38
39 Q. IfIcanaskyounowtogobacktoyourstatementand40 readusthatpartofyourstatementthatdealswiththe41 disclosurebyyourchildrenoftheabusebyRabbiKramer?42 A. OnFridaynightin1993Ioverheardtwoofmysons43 arguing. Iaskedthem,"Whatareyoufightingabout?" The44 elderofthetwoothersonssaidtomethatmyyoungerson45 "issayingthatRabbiKramertouchedhim". Kramerwasa46 teacheratYeshivahCollege,Melbourne. Atthistimemy47 sonswereagedapproximatelyeightyearsandnineyears
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1 old. Thisargumentoccurredasthefamilywereaboutto2 sitdownforourSabbathmeal. Iwasinastateofshock.3 Wedidnotdiscussthedisclosureoftheabuseanyfurther
4 atthistime. Kramerwaslovedandrespectedbyall5 membersofthecommunity. Hewasprobablythemostpopular
6 teacherintheschoolatthetime. Kramer'swifewasfrom7 Israel,asismywife,andourfamilywerequitecloseto
8 hisfamily. Kramerandhisfamilywouldvisitmyhomemany9 timesforSabbath,festivalmeals,etcetera. The
10 closenessofthefamiliesmadethisdisclosureallthemore11 shocking. Keepgoing?12
13 Q. Keepgoing,please,nextparagraph?14 A. Ilaterfoundoutafewweekspriortomyson's15 disclosuretomethathehadmadethesamedisclosuretomy16 wife. Mywifetoldmethis,butsaidthatthe"wordswent
17
in
one
ear
and
out
the
other"
because
it
seemed
so
odd
and18 sounusualtousatthetime.
19
20 Q. Thatmusthavebeenindeed,MrWaks,somevery21 difficultinformationforyoutoprocessatthetime,to22 haveyourchildtellyousomethingaboutsomeonewhoyou23 knewandrespected?24 A. Yes,well,whenIsayastateofshock,itwasshock25 notinthewaythatIwasshockedtohearthatthishad26 happened. Itwasshockalmost justshockof thefirst27 thing,IthinkIsayitlatersomewhere,aboutnotreally28
knowing
whether
to
believe
it
and
the
first
advice
we
29 soughtwaswhethertobelieveiteven,becauseitwasjust30 sounbelievable. Thatwastheshock. Notshockthatthis31 couldhavehappened;wedidn'tgettothatyet.32
33 Q. Itwastheshockofcoulditevenbetruethat 34 A. Yes,itwasmorejustshockthattheyweresayingthis35 andcoulditbetrue,butnotatthedepthof"thishas36 happened,howshocking,"notatthatlevel.37
38
Q.
I
think
you
go
on
now
in
your
statement
to
talk
about39 whatyoudidinresponsetothatinformation. CouldIask
40 youtotelltheCommission,please,readingyourstatement41 fromparagraph13andIwillstopyouataconvenienttime?42 A. Okay. OnSundaymorningIspoketotheschool43 principalofYeshivahCollegeatthetime,RabbiAbraham44 Glick,RabbiGlick. Itoldhimwhatmysonshadsaid.45 IcannotrecallexactlywhatIsaidtoRabbiGlick.46 IrecallhavingconcernsastowhetherI,oranyoneelse,47 wouldbelievemysons'account. RabbiGlicktoldmethat
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1 hewouldspeaktoKramer. Afewhourslater,RabbiGlick2 toldmethatKramerhadpartlyadmittedtowhathad3 happened. Thisadmissionwasahugeshocktome,
4 especiallygivenmyinitialconcernsastowhetherIor5 anyoneelsebelievedmysons'account.6
7 ThefollowingdayontheMondayInoticedthatKramer8 wasstillteachingattheschool. IconfrontedRabbiGlick9 andsaidtohim,"What'sgoingon? Howisitpossiblethat
10 he'sstillhere?" ShouldIcommentorjustread?11
12 Q. Yes,ifyoufeeltheneedtocomment.13 A. InthepreviousparagraphIshouldcomment,whenIsay14 ifanyonebelieved,ontheSaturdaynightwewerestillin15 thisstateofshockwhethertobelieve. Ispoketotwo16 verygoodfriendswhethertobelieveornot,psychologists.
17
They
said,
"Look,
we
don't
know
either,
but
you
should18 definitelyspeaktoRabbiGlickaboutit." Becausethe
19 questionwasevenwhethertodoanything. Anyway,they20 said,"Yes,itmaybetrue." Thatwasthat. Thenextone21 iswhenIsay,"Howisitpossiblethatheisstillhere,"22 sothatnooneshouldgettheimplicationthatIsaid"Why23 didn'tyousendhimaway?" No,Ijustmeant"Whyishe24 stillteachingattheschoolafteryouknowthis?" So25 IsaidRabbiGlickrespondedwithwordstotheeffectthat,26 "ThepsychiatristhasconcludedthatKramerallowedhimself27 tobecaughtbecausehewantedtobestopped. Thereis28
danger
of
self
harm.
So
we
can't
fire
him."
29
30 Ithoughtthiswasabsolutelyoutrageous. However,if31 Ireportedmatterstothepolice,Iwouldbeinbreachof32 theJewishprinciplemesirah. Ishouldagainpointout33 herethatitwasn'tthatIthought,"Iwanttoreportitto34 thepolicebutIcan'tbecauseit'smesirah." Thiswasthe35 reason;mesirahandthewholecommunityculturewasthe36 reason,notthatIsaid,"I'mgoingtoreportittothe37 police." Itdidn'tevengettothat. OfcourseIknew
38
that
a
crime
had
been
committed
here,
but
you
just
didn't39 gettothatstage. Iknowitishardforpeopleto
40 comprehendthis.41
42 Q. MaybeIcanexplorethatwithyou. Whenyousay"it's43 hardtocomprehend",isitthattheexpectationwasatthat44 timethatitwouldbedealtwith,ifitcouldbe,within45 thecommunity;isthatwhatyoumean?46 A. That'sputtingapositivespinonit. Iwouldsay47 justdoinganythingaboutitourselveswasanono. What's
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1 goingtobedoneisaseparatematter.2
3 Q. Whenyousay"doinganythingaboutit"yourself4 personally,doyoumeanthatyouneededsomekindof
5 permissiontodothatorthatyoufeltthatyouwouldneed6 toinvolvetherabbisbeforedecidingwhattodo?
7 A. Yes,yes,yes,theywouldhavetobetotallyinvolved.8 Itwasn'tjustamatterof,"Iwanttogotothepolice.9 Iwillgoandgetpermission." No. Itwouldhavetobe
10 somethingthat'sreallyagreedtobyeverybody.11
12 Q. Beforewegototheconceptofmesirah,soIcan13 understandthat,Ithinkwehavealreadyheardyour14 evidencethatatthistimeyouconsideredyourselfpartof15 perhapsthehardcoreormorestrictlyadherentwithinthe16 Orthodoxfaith. Andwehaveheardsomethatwouldmean
17
taking
direction
from
a
rabbi
on
lots
of
the
life
decisions18 thattheymadeonaneverydaybasis;"Whatschool? What
19 shouldIdo? WhoshouldImarry? WhatshouldIdowithmy20 work?" Wouldyouputyourselfinthatcategoryatthe21 time?22 A. 100percent. Again,toseparateouttwothings,the23 Hasidicmovementalsohas there'sthenormalconceptof24 Jewishlawwhereyouareaskingarabbiforalegalopinion25 aboutthings;daytodaythingsifyoudon'tknowthem26 yourself. Ifyouknowwhatthelawisaboutsomethingyou27 don'task. But,ifitissomethingthatyoudon'tknowor28
there
may
be
ambiguity,
you
ask.
Then
there's
a
separate
29 conceptamongHasidimofaRebbe. Itsoundsthesamebut30 it'snot. Rebbe. That'sthespiritualleaderofthewhole31 movementwhoispurportedtohavespecialspiritualpowers.32 Thereyouwillbeaskingmajorlifedecisions,before33 gettingmarried,even,"ShallIgooutwiththisperson?"34 Sorry?35
36 Q. Goon,please?37 A. "Thedoctor'srecommendedmetodothisoperation.
38
Should
I
do
it?"
Et
cetera.
Every
sort
of
major
decision39 inlife. Anything. Everything. Mywifeoncehadalittle
40 growthonherfinger,andthedoctorwantedtodoabiopsy.41 Sowewroteinforthat. That'salreadyamedical42 procedure,notjustgoingandseeingthedoctor. Wedidn't43 getananswer. Icheckedacoupleoftimestoseeifwe44 hadgotananswer. Therewasnoanswer. Sowedidn'tgo45 ahead. Thedoctorwasfurious. Hehadalreadybookeda46 room. Wedidn'tgoaheadanddoabiopsy. ThankGodthat47 was30yearsago. She'sfine. Butitwasdowntothat
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1 level.2
3 Q. WereyoureferringtheretotheLubavitchRebbe?4 A. Correct.5
6 Q. Wasitcommonthenforpeopleinadditiontoseeking,7 say,arabbi'sinterpretationofthelaw,Jewishlaw,to8 lookspecificallytotheLubavitchRebbeforguidancein
9 allofthosedaytodaydecisions?10 A. Again,it'snotthedaytodayones. Therearesome11 fanaticalpeoplethatmightdoiton weusedtoalmost12 jokeaboutit,thelevelsofwhatthey beforetheywent13 tothetoilettheywouldaskhim. ButI'mnottalking14 aboutthem. ThetypeofthingsI'msaying,beforeyougot15 anewbusiness,beforeyoumovedcountriescertainly.16 BeforewemovedbacktoAustraliaIaskedmanytimeswe
17
didn't
move
back
without
getting
actual
permission
and18 blessingtocomebacktoAustralia. Itriedformany
19 years. Allmajordecisionsoflife.20
21 Q. AndthereforeIassumethenthattheLubavitchRebbe22 hadagreatcapacitytoinfluencewhatwashappeningwithin23 thecommunity,firstlyhimselfthroughhislifetime?24 A. Yes.25
26 Q. And,secondly,mayIaskwasthereaparticular27 respectpaidtoemissarieswhohadbeenchosenbytheRebbe28
to
be
sent
to
the
community?
29 A. Yes,theywouldbe becausethere'saconceptin30 Jewishlawthatanemissaryisconsideredasthesender31 themselves,andthatwasverymuchstressed. Itbecamea32 problemsometimesifonedidn'treallyregardtheemissary33 asbeingonthesamelevelasthesender. Butthatwasthe34 game.35
36 Q. Andsowastheroleoftheemissarythentostandin37 theplaceoftheLubavitchRebbewithintheterritoryin
38
the
Chabad
community?
39 A. Yes,butagainitwouldn'tbeatthelevel you40 wouldn'tbegoingaskingtheemissarythesetypesof41 questions. ThatwouldbepurelyjustfortheRebbe42 himself,eveninpersonifyoulivedinAmericaorfrom43 hereitwouldbefaxorbytelephone. Itwasavery44 regularoccurrence. Youhavetounderstanditmeansall45 thesepeopleallovertheworld,tensofthousandsof46 people,askingallthesetypesofquestionseveryday.47
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1 Q. WehaveseensomeevidencethatsuggestsRabbiGroner2 wastheemissarysentbytheRebbetoMelbourne?
3 A. Yes,that'saveryinterestingthingand,without4 goingintointernalpolitics,thereissomedisagreement5 aboutexactlyhowthathappenedinthisparticularcase.6 RabbiGronerwasavery hewasverydeterminedtobethe
7 emissaryandIcan'tvouchforexactlythewayitwas. But8 heoriginallycametoAustralianotastheemissary. He
9 cameinadifferentcapacityaltogether. Hewas10 apparentlyheadmasteroftheschoolorsomethinglikethat.11 Thereissomecontentionastowhathappened,howhegotto12 beinchargeofthewholething.13
14 Q. Soinorderfortheretobecontention,therewasat15 leastapremisethathewasinfacttheemissary,although16 somepeopletooksomeissuewiththat;doIunderstandthat
17
evidence?18 A. Whenyousayapremise,atonestageitmorphed
19 whateveritwasmorphedintotheactuality.20
21 Q. Andtheactualitybeingthathewastheemissaryof22 theRebbeforMelbourne?23 A. Yes,atsomestagehedefinitelydidbecomethe24 emissary,yes.25
26 Q. Thesemajorlifedecisions,aftertheLubavitch27 Rebbe'spassing,whohadresponsibilitythenforproviding28
the
counsel
in
relation
to
these
major
life
decisions?
29 A. Thisisveryembarrassingforme. Essentiallyit30 brokeintotwocamps:thosethatsaidtheRebbeisno31 longerhereandthenIdon'tknowwhatalotofthose32 peoplewoulddo,andsomepeoplewentalongwiththeidea33 thathe'sreallystillaround,totally,andbyopening34 booksofhisyouwillgetanswers,especiallymanybooks35 werepublishedwithlettersofhis. So,theideawasthat36 youwouldopenabookandgetananswertoexactlyyour37 question. Peopleeventookittotheextenttheywould
38
say,
"The
Rebbe
told
me
to
do
this,"
and
I
would
have
to39 checksometimesifthepersonwasacertainagegroup,
40 whethertheyhadactuallybeenaroundwhentheRebbewas41 thereandtheRebbetoldthemtodothisoriftheyare42 sayingitbecausetheyopenedabookandtheyperceivedan43 answerthereontheirown. Butthere'sanabsolute 44 there'sabitofadichotomyastowhat'sgoingon.45
46 Q. CanIcomebacknowto 47 A. Thereisnophysicalperson,though,thatyougoto
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1 anymore. That'sarealproblem. Thereisnoleadership2 inthatrespect.3
4 Q. CanIcomebacktomesirah,butjustsaybeforeIask5 youtoreadonaboutthat,atleastatthetime,onceyour6 sonshadspokentoyou,youhadspokentoyourwife,you
7 thenspoketoapsychologistwhosaid,"Youshoulddo8 something,atleastspeaktoRabbiGlick,"andthenyou
9 spoketoRabbiGlickandhetoldyouthathewouldspeakto10 Kramerandhedoesthatandcomesback?11 A. Mmmhmm.12
13 Q. Atleastatthatstageyoufeelthatsomethingshould14 bedone,buteventhenfromyourownperspectiveisyour15 evidencethattherewasnorealabilityforyoutohave16 decidedyourselfjustthereandthentogoofftothe
17
police?18 A. Yes. Whenyousaynoability,Imeanitwasataboo,
19 likeincestoranythinglikethat. Itwasthatbiga20 taboo.21
22 Q. Canyoupleasegoonandreadforusalittlebitmore23 abouthowyoudescribemesirahandyourunderstanding?24 A. MesirahisaJewishprinciplewhichstatesthatone25 Jewishpersoncannotreportontheconductofanother26 JewishpersontononJewishauthorities. Ifyouwantto27 approachnonJewishauthoritiesorgotoanonJewish28
court,
you
need
to
receive
permission
from
your
rabbi.
29 Fromarabbi,reallyitshouldbe.30
31 Myunderstandingisthathistoricallymesirahapplied32 toavoidpersecutionofJewishpeopleatatimewhenJewish33 peoplewerenotaffordedafairtrial. Itisbasedonthe34 beliefthatbringingthe"dirtylinen"ofJewishpeopleto35 thebroadersocietywouldjustifyantiSemitismandbring36 shameandgriefontheJewishcommunity.37
38
A
person
who
breaches
mesirah
is
considered
an
39 informer,calledamoserorrodef. Amoserisstrictlythe40 personthat'sdoingmesirah. Arodefisevenmoregeneral.41 Rodefmeanssomeonewhoisliterallychasingaftersomeone.42 Sosomeoneischasingafteryoutokillyou,heiscalleda43 rodef. Chasingiswhatitmeans. Soamoserisconsidered44 apersonthat'schasingyoutokillyou. Now,onthis45 secondterm,soamoserisarodef. Rodefisamore46 generalterm. Infact,arodef,initsmostextremeform47 Jewishlawsanctionsthevigilantekillingofapersonwho
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1 breachesmesirah. Notjustmesirah,anyrodef. Thatmeans2 justbecauseapersonisdoingmesirahasifheischasing
3 afteryou,andanyonethat'schasingafteryoutokillyou,4 youcankillhim. Attheveryleast,thebreachofmesirah5 almostalwaysleadstoshunningandintimidationwithinthe6 Jewishcommunityandwouldalmostcertainlydamagethe7 marriageprospectsofyourchildrenasmarriageswithinthe8 Chabadcommunitywere,atleastthen,almostalways
9 arranged. Disapprovalofafamilybythecommunitywould10 havedireconsequencesforthemarriageprospectsofthe11 children.12
13 Soagaintomakeitclear,becauseithasthis14 backgroundofvigilantekillingevenifsomeoneisan15 rodef,evenifitisnotbeingclaimedthatthat Imyself16 wasnotinfearofthat,butthestigmaattachedtoitand
17
the
approbation
and
everything
attached
to
that
remains18 today. That'sveryimportanttounderstand.
19
20 Q. CanIaskyouthis,then. Labellingsomeoneamoser21 isnotsomethingdonelightly?22 A. No,ingeneral. Whenitisdoneseriously,no. It's23 very,veryserious. It'smorethancallingthemaratbag24 oraBoranothertypeofBoranfingB. It'sworsethan25 anyofthosethings.26
27 Q. Ifacommunitycametoviewsomeoneasamoser,was28
your
understanding
that
that
would
lead
to
community
29 ostracisation?30 A. Yes.31
32 Q. Aninabilityordifficultyingettingyourchildren33 married?34 A. Everything.35
36 Q. Affectingyourwork?37 A. Everything.38
39 Q. Affectingyourrelationshipswithotherpeoplewithin40 thecommunity?41 A. Everything.42
43 Q. CanIaskyoutoreadonfromparagraph19,please?44 A. ItwasunderstoodatthetimethatRabbiGroner,45 YeshivahandChabadingeneralwereallagainstreporting46 tothepolice. IshouldsayultraOrthodoxherein47 general,notjustChabad. MuchlaterIwasinformedbya
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1 friend,MosheNeubauer,thatRabbiGronerhadannounced2 thatnoonewaseventotalkaboutwhathadhappened.
3
4 Q. WithKramer?5 A. Yes. OnthatsamedayanotherparentandI sothis6 isthatMonday decidedtoholdameetingwithother7 parentsofchildrenwhowerecurrentstudentsofKramer.8 Wearrangedforthemeetingtobeheldatapproximately9 7pmatmyhouse. Wedividedthelistofparentsinhalf
10 andtelephonedapproximately15to20peopleintotal. The11 purposeofthemeetingwastodiscusswhetherthepolice12 weretobeinvolved. Weweregoingtodiscussputtingto13 theleadersoftheYeshivahCentrethatalltheparents14 wouldgotothepoliceenmasseifKramerwasnotfired.15
16 Soitwasn'ttosaywhetherthepoliceshouldbeinvolved.
17
It
was
to
say
en
masse,
decide
if
they
don't
fire
Kramer
we18 aregoingtogotothepolice. Thatwasthedecision.
19
20 Q. Atthistimewastheregeneralconcernbytheparents21 aboutthefactthatKramerwasstillteaching,obviously?22 A. Yes,that'swhytheywereallgoingto that'showwe23 gotthemeetinggoingandthat'swhatmadetheotherperson24 willingtocooperateandeverything,assaidlater. He25 deniesitnow. Butthat'swhythewholethinggotgoing.26 Everybodywasabitoutragedaboutit.27
28
Q.
All
right.
When
you
say
everyone,
how
did
they
come
29 toknow? Twoofyoursonshadtoldyouaboutwhathad30 occurred. Didyoucometoknowaboutothercomplaints31 against 32 A. Iimmediatelyheard,probablyonthatsameSunday33 Iheardaboutotherthings,anditgotoutimmediately34 becausehehadadmittedit,sotherewasnomoreany35 problemofallegationsoranything. Sothewordhadgot36 outprettyquickly,eventhoughmanypeopledidn'tbelieve37 it,evenafterhehadalreadyadmittedit. Irememberone
38
particular
person
I
went
to
in
the
learning
place
and39 Itoldhim,youknow,"KramerhasjustadmittedtoRabbi
40 Glick." TheguythoughtIwasmakingitup."It'snot41 possible. You'relying." Butitwasknownalreadyonthe42 Sunday. Sootherpeoplewouldhaveheardandthenmight43 haveaskedthekids. Idon'tknowhowitcameabout,but44 parentsstartedtoknow.45
46 Q. Yousayyoudon'tknowhowitcameaboutthatpeople47 cametoknowabouttheadmissions?
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1 A. About youmeanabouttheirownkids? Theymight2 havejustthought wemighthavejustsaid"There'smore3 kids,weknowaboutmorekids." Maybeeveryonethathada4 kidintheclassaskedtheirkids. Idon'tknowhowit5 camethattheseparentswereprepared,ifitwasbecause6 theyknewfromtheirownkidsorjustbecausetheyhadkids7 intheclassandtheysuspectedtheremaybeaproblem.8 Idon'trememberthatdetail.9
10 Q. Justbeforeyougoonfromthere,canIaskforthe11 documentattab208,OPP.3016.002.0105_ERtobebroughtup.12 Imightaskyouthis. DoyouknowapersoncalledRamon13 Lewis?14 A. Yes.15
16 Q. Haveyoueverseenthisdocumentbefore?
17
A.
No.
18
19 Q. PerhapsIwilljustreadthistoyou,MrWaks. This20 wasastatementpreparedbyProfessorLewisforthepolice21 intheinvestigationofRabbiDavidKramer:22
23 In1992,althoughIcannotrecalltheexact24 date,Iwasaskedbyamemberofthe25 YeshivahCentretospeaktoRabbiKramerin26 ordertodetermineifhehadacted27 inappropriatelytowardssomeofthe28
children.
This
was
because
theperson
who
29 askedmetointerviewRabbiKramerwas30 tryingtoascertainifhehadsexually31 molestedanyoftheboys. Iwasaskedto32 dothisbecauseofmyinvolvementwiththe33 centreinthepast. Mybackgroundisin34 educationalpsychologyandIhadtrained35 someoftheirteachersandworkedwiththe36 Yeshivahschoolinothercapacities. This37 iswhyIwasaskedatthetime. Ican't
38
recall
the
person
that
asked
me.39
40 IwenttoRabbiKramer'shometheevening41 afterbeingbriefed. RabbiKramerlivedin42 anapartmentbuildingoppositetheYeshivah43 CollegeinHothamStreet,EastStKilda.44 Hisapartmentwas[redacted]. Ibelieveit45 was[redacted]. WhenIgotthereIwent46 insideandspokewithRabbiKramerinthe47 loungeroom. Ibelievethathiswifewas
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1 intheapartmentatthetimebutwasnot2 presentIspoketohim. Theconversation3 startedbymetellinghimwhyIwasthere
4 andIaskedhimifhehadanysexual5 involvementwithanyoftheboys. Rabbi6 Krameradmittedtomethathehadtouched7 theboysbuthewasquiteclearthatthe
8 boyshadinitiatedthetouchingandthatno9 harmwasdone. Heindicatedabeliefthat
10 theboyshadenjoyedit. Thetoneofhis11 admissionswerequitedisturbingtomeas12 Icouldseethattherewasnocontrition.13
14 WhenRabbiKramerstatedthathehad15 touchedtheboys,hedidn'tmentionthe16 numberofboyshetouchedbutIfeltlike
17
he
was
describing
a
number
of
boys
that
he18 hadtouched.
19
20 Iwentbacktothepersonwhoaskedmeto21 conducttheinterviewandtoldthemwhat22 wassaidbyKramertome.23
24 Wewillleavethat. Thatinfactseemstocorroborateina25 sensewhatyousayRabbiGlicktoldyou?26 A. Exactly.27
28
Q.
That
he
would
speak
to
Rabbi
Kramer
and
then
at
some
29 stagehecamebacktoyouandsaidthatKramerhadmade30 someadmissions?31 A. Heevenactuallyalsomentionedtomethat,"Kramer32 hadtoldme,like,itwasonlyabouthalfthepeopleand33 onlyabitofthingsandthattheboyshadinitiatedit."34 Heactuallytoldmethat. Glicktoldmethataswell.35
36 Q. AndthisconversationthatyouhadwithRabbiGlick37 wherehemadethoseadmissionswasontheSundaybeforethe
38
following
day
when
you
noticed
Rabbi
Kramer
still
at
the
39 school?40 A. Yes.41
42 Q. Andthatwasinresponsetotheadmissionandthen43 goingtotheschoolthenextdayandseeingRabbiKramer44 therethatledyoutospeaktoRabbiGlickandsay,"What's45 goingon? Howisitpossiblehe'sstillhere?"?46 A. Yes.47
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1 Q. Andhetoldyousomethingtotheeffectthattherewas2 someconcernaboutselfharm?3 A. Itwasthosewords. Theyhadbeentoldbya
4 particularpsychiatrist,whoIknowwhoitis. Ithinkhe5 hassincedeniedit,butanyway.6
7 Q. Allright. IfIcantakeyoubacktoyourstatement,8 please. Youwereabouttoreadthataspectofyour
9 evidenceyousayoccurredinthemeeting. DoIunderstand10 ittobethatitwasunacceptabletoyou,followingthose11 admissionsandthefactofthecomplaints,thatRabbi12 KramerwasstillattheschoolontheMondaywhenyouwent13 toseehimandthatalsoitwasalsounacceptablethat14 RabbiGlickdidnotappeartobepreparedtodoanything15 aboutit?16 A. Correct.
17
18 Q. Wasthatwhatledtothismeetingwiththechildren?19 A. Correct.20
21 Q. Ortheparents?22 A. Correct. Thespecificreasonofthemeeting,itwas23 to again,wewenttothisridiculousextremebecauseof24 theproblemofbeingworriedwhatwillhappen. Twopeople25 wereinvolvedinevencallingthemeetingandthenthe26 meetingwascalled,theexpresspurposewouldbethatwe27 woulddecidetothreatentogotothepoliceiftheydidn't28
get
rid
of
him.
That
was
all.
29
30 Q. Wasitthesensethatyoufeltthatifitwasa31 communaldecisionnoonepersoncouldbeblamed?32 A. Couldn'tbepickedoff,that'sright,ortherewould33 bemuchlesschance. Therewouldbesomanypeopleit34 wouldbealreadyproblematicalanditwouldbeknown,35 etcetera,etcetera.36
37 Q. CanIaskyoutoread,andIthinkyouwereaboutto
38
say
that,
actually.
"I
believe
that
if
we
made
the
39 decisionasagroup" Idon'tknowifyoureadit,butif40 youcanreaditfromthere?41 A. Ibelievethatifwemadethedecisionasagroup,no42 oneindividualwouldbeblamedforbreachingtheprinciple43 ofmesirah. Notjustmesirah,reallyit'swiderthanthat44 again;goingagainstthistaboo,whichincludedmesirah,45 obviously.46
47 Q. Butthetabooofgoingtothepoliceortaking
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1 somethingoutsidethecommunity?2 A. Yes,yes,goingtothepolice. Theparentwhohelped3 mearrangethemeetinghassincedeniedhisinvolvement.
4
5 Q. Keepreading.6 A. Shortlybeforethecommencementofthemeetingatmy
7 homeIreceivedatelephonecallfromHershCooper,Cooper,8 whowasaseniorlawyerandchairmanoftheBoardof9 ManagementoftheYeshivahCentreatthetime. Coopersaid
10 wordstotheeffect,"He'sbeenfired. Calloffthe11 meeting." IcannotnowrecallhowCooperknewofthe12 meeting. IbelieveCoopermadethistelephonecallto13 avoidmattersspreadingwithintheYeshivahcommunity,and14 tostopusreportingtothepolice. Afterthetelephone15 callendedwithCooper,Iimmediatelycalledallthe16 parentsandinformedthemthatthemeetinghadbeen
17
cancelled.
We
did
not
make
a
police
complaint
at
this18 time. IdidnottellRabbiGlickaboutmyconversation
19 withCooper. BecauseGlickalreadywasn'tinvolvedinthis20 wholeproceeding. Imean,Ihadgivenuponhim,soIhad21 noreasontoringhim.22
23 Q. AndHarryCooperwaswellknowntoyouatthetime?24 A. Yes.25
26 Q. Anddoyousayoneoftheparentswhowasinvolvedin27 this,inarrangingthismeeting,hassincedeniedhis28
involvement?
29 A. Yes.30
31 Q. Withoutnamingthatperson,didtheytellyou 32 A. Theydidn'tspeaktome. Theydenieditobviouslyto33 thepolice.34
35 Q. Someoneelse. Allrightthen. CanIjustaskyouto36 holdforonesecondbeforewemoveonfromthere.37 A. I'mnotgoingtodoit,butit'sjustashamethatthe
38
person
can't
be
named,
is
all
I
can
say.
39
40 Q. Justreadonforme?41 A. Sorry?42
43 Q. Justreadon?44 A. That's22. InowfeltthatIhadablackmarkagainst45 mynamewithintheYeshivahcommunityfororganisingthe46 meetingatmyhouse,andbeingtheinstigatorofthe47 possibilityofinvolvingthepolice.
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1
2 AttheendofthatsameweekInoticedthatKramerwas3 absentfromsynagogue. Kramerwasalsoabsentfrom
4 Sabbath,whichwasmostunusual. Itwascommonknowledge5 atthistimethattheYeshivahCentrepaidforMrKramerto
6 leaveAustralia,orRabbiKramer,andtraveltoIsrael.7 Thatwasthenextweek. ThefirstSabbathwenoticedhe
8 wasgone,notaround,butitwasonlythenextweekthatwe9 foundoutthathewasactuallyoutofAustralia.
10
11 Uponbeinginformedofthis,whenIheardthathehad12 actuallygone,IapproachedMrShmuelGurewicsz,whowasa13 goodfriendandtheprincipalofBethRivkahCollege14 Melbourneatthetime. BethRivkahistheJewishday15 schoolforgirlsrunbytheYeshivahCentreandisthe16 schoolmydaughtersattended. IsaidtoGurewicsz,"What's
17
going
to
happen?
He's
going
to
offend
in
Israel."18 Gurewicszrespondedwithwordstothefollowingeffect:
19 "No,no,no. Don'tworryaboutit. I'mlookingafterit.20 RabbiGronerhasmademeresponsibletolookafterit21 overseas,tomakesurethateverybodyknowsaboutitandhe22 won'toffendanymoreandwe'regoingtogethimtreatment23 andeverythinglikethat."24
25 ApproximatelysixmonthslaterIspoketoGurewicsz26 again. Irecallhesaidwordstotheeffect,"Kramer's27 beentoapsychologistandhe'sfinishedtreatment." Iwas28
doubtful
that
this
had
occurred.
The
reason
in
particular
29 Iwasdoubtful,Ihaddonealittlebitofresearchafter30 allthiscameoutandIsawsuccessratesoftreatmentand31 recidivismandeverythingandIwasextremelydoubtfulon32 thebalanceofprobabilitiesthatthiswastrue.33
34 IremainedconcernedthatKramercontinuedtoposea35 dangertothecommunity. Threetofouryearslater36 IvisitedIsraelandinquiredaboutKramer. Ispoketo37 peoplewholivedinthecitywhereKramerresidedand
38
eventually
received
his
contact
details.
I
telephoned39 Kramerandexpressedmyconcernthathecontinuedtoposea
40 risktothecommunityandIwantedtoconfirmthathehad41 infactreceivedtreatment. Ireceivedpermissionfromhim42 tospeaktohispsychologistinIsrael,andhesaidhe43 wouldactuallyspeaktothepsychologistandlethimknow44 thatIwasgoingtoringhimandhegavemehisnumberand45 everything. HesaiditwasAharonRabinowicz.46 ItelephonedRabinowiczandheinitiallydidnotwantto47 speaktome. Eventhoughheknewthathehadbeen
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1 contactedbyKramer,hestilldidn'twanttotalktome.2 Isaidwordstotheeffect,"Justanswermeonethingthen.3 Kramerhastoldmehe'sfinishedacourseoftreatmentwith
4 you. Isthattrue?" Rabinowiczlaughedandsaid,"Heran5 outofmoney." Apparentlyheonlyhadafewsessions.6 Like,itwasjustacompletejoke. Continue?7
8 Q. No,juststopthereforasecond. Iwilltakeyouto9 theconvictionofKramer. Oneofthethingsyousaidthere
10 inyourevidenceisthatyouasoneoftheparentswanted11 Krameroutoftheschool?12 A. Mmmhmm.13
14 Q. Whatdoyousaytoanysuggestionthatyouhad15 suggestedthathebesentawayorsentoverseas?16 A. Alie. Acompletelie,andnooneeverthoughtabout
17
it
at
the
time.
We
were
all
shocked
when
we
found
he
had18 goneoutofthecountry. Whatdidwethinkwasgoingto
19 happen? Wedidn'tthink. It'sridiculous. Didwethink20 theyweregoingtogotothepolice? Weprobablythought21 no. Idon'tknow;wedidn'tthink. ButIknowwewereall22 shockedandI'mfriendlywithaguywhosefatherownedthe23 apartmenthewaslivingin. Hedidn'ttellmeatthetime24 buthetoldmelaterthathehimselfwasshocked. Noone25 knew. Noonewasexpectingit. Noone. Hewentandtold26 hisfatherinlawontheThursdayorsomethinglikethat,27 "Guesswhat? Yourguy'sgone." Andtheguythatownedthe28
property
couldn't
believe
it
and
he
was
worried
what's
29 happenedtohistenant. Hetoldmethatthe30 fatherinlawspoketoRabbiGronerandRabbiGronertoldhim,"Don't31 worry,we'regoingtolookafterpayingforthe,youknow,32 thefactthatyoudon'thaveatenantnow. Wewilllook33 afterit."34
35 Q. ButthelandlordtoldyouthatRabbiGronerhadsaidto36 him
37
A.
The
son
in
law
of
the
landlord
told
me
that
he
rang38 RabbiGronerbecausehewasworriedtheguyhadsuddenly
39 disappeared. Sothefatherinlaw,worriedaboutnot40 havinghistenantnow. Idon'tknowifthefatherinlaw41 knewwhatthewholestorywas,buthistenanthasgoneand42 heringsRabbiGronerandsays,"Don'tworry,we'lllookafter43 payingwhateverwehavetopaybecausehehasdisappeared44 withoutbeingnotified." I'mbringingthisuptoshow45 nobodyknewhewasgone. Wesawhewasn'tinsynagogue.46 Wethoughtthatwasprobablybecausehewasembarrassedor47 somethinglikethat,butwedidnotknowhehadgone
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1 overseas. ThesuggestionthatIsaidthatisjustabsurd,2 especiallywhenyoulookthatafterwardswhatIdid3 physically,"Hey,he'sgoneoverseas. What'sgoingto4 happen?" Itjustdoesn'taddup. Iwastheonlypersonas5 farasIknowthatdidanything. SothatIwouldhave6 exactlybeenthatpersonwhichiswhat'sbeingclaimedby7 somepeopleispurelymalicious.8
9 Q. Youweretold,though,thatsomethingwouldbetaken10 careof,thatsomeonewasgoingtospeaktosomeone11 overseasor 12 A. Yes,Gurewicszwasgoingtodoitbecausehe'dlived13 inIsrael,hiswifeisIsraeli. HewasseniorinChabad,a14 wellknownfigure. Principaloftheschool. Hewouldbe15 theperfectpersontodoit,that'scorrect.16
17
Q.
I'm
going
to
ask,
please,
if
document
78
of
the18 proposedtenderbundlecouldbebroughtup. Itisdocument
19 OPP.3016.002. ItisastatementofHarryCoopermadeto20 thepoliceintheinvestigation. Haveyouseenthis21 statementbefore?22 A. No. Whenwasthismade?23
24 Q. It'sdated1December2011?25 A. Sothiswasmadeaftertheinvestigationstartednow,26 notthen.27
28
Q.
Yes.
Not
then,
no.
I
just
wanted
to
read
part
of
the
29 statementtoyouandthenaskyousomequestions:30
31 AtthetimeKramerwasteachingatthe32 school 33
34 ThisisastatementmadeinrelationtoDavidKramer:35
36 Iwasamemberandexecutiveofthe37 YeshivahCollegeanditsunofficial38 chairman.39
40 A. "Unofficial". Imean,whatIjoke.41
42 Q. MrWaks,isthisHarryCooperthepersonyouhave43 referredtoinyourstatementasHershCooper?44 A. Yes.45
46 Q. Doyoubelievethisisthesameperson?47 A. Itis,yes.
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35 understandingofthiswasthatitrelated
36
toinappropriate sexual behaviour. Neither
37
the parents,nor Rabbi Groner, ever
38
specifically
spelt out the particulars of
39
the allegedmisbehaviour.
40
41 Imetwiththree of the parents I met
42
withZephaniah Waks and [two other persons
43
who havebeenredacted]. They were very,
44
veryirate. They accused Kramer of sexual
45
molestationo the above children and
46
demandedthatthe school immediately sack
47
Kramerandget rid of him. I understood
1
2 Q. Youknewhimastheofficialchairman,isthatright?3 A. That'scorrect. Everybodydid.4
5 Q. Hisrolewastochairexecutivemeetingsoftheschool6 boardwhoweretheadviserstothedirectorofallYeshivah7 institutions,RabbiIsaacGroner. Theexecutivecomprised8 fiveorsixmembers. Anyway,thisisdealingwiththe9 complaintin1992. MrCoopersaysthefollowing:
10
11 Ican'trecallhowIfirstbecameinvolved12 withtheincidentsinvolvingKramer,butit13 waseitherPinchasAshorRabbiGroneror14 threeparentswhofirstnotifiedmeofan15 issuewithhim. Thosethreeparentswere16 ZephaniahWaks,[redacted]andIbelieve
17
[redacted].
I'm
not
sure
whether
I
spoke18 of[anotherpersonaswell]
19
20 A. ShouldIsaysomethingnow?21
22 Q. Iwillgiveyouanopportunity:23
24 Itwasthechildrenoffourofthose25 parentsthatwerethesubjectofthe26 complaint. Thechildrenwere[redacted].27 Idon'tknowtothisdaywhatKramerwas
28
actually
accused
of
in
specific
detail.
29 IthinkitwasPinchasAsh,thethen30 headmasteroftheprimaryschoolatthe31 YeshivahCentre,whofirstinformedmethat32 therewasanissuewithKramer,whohad33 beenaccusedbytheparentsofmessing34 aroundwiththeirchildren.My
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1 thattheseincidentshadoccurredinthe2 classroom,soIthereforebelievedthatit3 wasn'tactualsexualrelations.4
5 A. WhatcanItellyou? "Isaythatwasokay,becauseit6 wasnotactuallypenetration. Thatwasreallyokay".7
8 Q. Diditappeartoyouatanytimethattherewasalmost9 aminimisationofthecomplaintsthatyouweremaking
10 againstRabbiKramer?11 A. No,itwasn'treallydiscussed. But,Imean,no,12 Iwouldn'tthinkthatIthoughtaboutthat. Ijustthought13 thattheyweredoingtheircourseofactionforthereasons14 thattheyweredoing;notthattheywerethinkingabout15 whateverhappenedatall. Imean,theywerethinking,the16 wayIthoughtofitatthetime,thattheywereprotecting
17
the
school,
the
name,
the
institution,
everything
like
that18 andIliterallythoughtatthetime,"Bethekids,"ifyou
19 knowwhatImean. Couldn'tcareaboutthekids. "Weare20 protectingtheinstitutionatallcosts." Theyweren't21 goingintodetails. Noonewasthinkingwhathadhappened22 tothekids. Itwasjustthereaction itwasveryblack23 andwhite.24
25 Q. MrCoopersaysorsaidtothepolicethattheparents26 toldhimtheywantedthematterkeptconfidentialsothat27 thechildrenwouldnotsufferastigmainclass. Whatdo28
you
say
about
that?
29 A. Idon'trememberthatatall. Ifinditdifficultto30 believebecauseweknewandnotonlyweknew,afterwards31 I'vegotsomeonethatwasinaroomwhenCoopercameinin32 Groner'shouseandtoldhim,"Wehaveinvestigatedandwe33 found60victimsofKramer." Sotheyknewtheextent. We34 alreadyknewthereweremany,manyvictims. Sowhatstigma35 wouldtherebeifthewholeclasshadbeenmolested?36 Idon'trememberthatandIfinditalittlebitdifficult37 tobelieve.38
39 Q. Yourevidencewasthattherewasameetingofsome,40 what,20parentsplanned?41 A. Correct.42
43 Q. Andtheyallknewthereasonwhytheywerecoming?44 A. Ididn'tknowexactlyatwhatstage. Someofthem45 wouldhavenodoubtspokentothekids,theywouldhave46 heard,someofthemmighthaveknownabouttheirownkids.47
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1 Q. Wereyouinvolvedincallingparentsaswellto2 organisethismeeting?3 A. Yes,wesplitthelist,meand bytheway,Isee4 fromthatthattherewasobviouslyatleastoneother5 personthat'sadmittedmeetingCooperorCooperadmitsmet6 withhim. Sothatnodoubtwouldhavebeentheother7 person.8
9 Q. Andintermsofthepeopleyoucalledonthelist,did10 youtellthem,"Youneedtocometohaveameetingsowe11 cantalkaboutwhatwearegoingtodoaboutRabbiKramer"?12 A. Yes,Iwouldhaveexplainedtothemwearedoingit13 fortheexpresspurposethathe'sbeingsacked. Thatwas14 thepurposeofthemeeting.15
16 Q. Andifwegodowntoparagraph10,MrCoopersaidthis
17
to
the
police
at
the
time:
18
19 Inmymind,theparents'mainconcernwas20 immediateaction,andprotectingthe21 reputationsoftheirchildren. Theparents22 alsosaidthatiftheschoolwasnottodo23 anythingtheywouldcallanimmediate24 meetingofalloftheparentsofthekids25 intheclassinordertogetsomeaction.26
27 A. Idon'tunderstandwhatthishasgotto reputations28
of
their
children
and
getting
action.
I
don't
understand
29 howthetwothingsgotogether,actually.30
31 Q. Inanyevent,thesecondpartofthatevidencethat32 MrCoopergavetothepolice,that"theparentsalsosaid33 thatiftheschoolwasnottodoanythingtheywouldcall34 animmediatemeetingofalloftheparentsofthekidsin35 theclassinordertogetsomeaction,"thatstatementis36 consistentwiththeevidenceyouhavegiventoday,andin37 factwhatyoudiddo,yousetabouthavingameetingtoget
38
some
action?
39 A. Yes. Yes. Again,thenextsentence,"Theydidnot40 stateorimplythattheywantedthepolicetobeinvolved."41 Again,basedonwhatIhavetoldyouthewholetime,that42 reallywasn'tpartofthewholeequation,willwegotothe43 policeornot. Itwasonlygoingtobeusedasatool,as44 alastresorttooliftheydidn'tgetaction,theother45 action,whichmeantstoppinghimteaching,andwhatever46 elsewasgoingtohappen,wedidn'tthinkfurtherthanthat47
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1 Q. Youjustwantedhimoutoftheclassroom?2 A. Correct,asastart. Wedidn'tthinkfurtherthan
3 that. Itisnotthatwethought,"Wewillgethimoutof4 theclassandthenwe'llshiphimout,"or"We'llgethim
5 outoftheclassroomandwedon'tcarewhathappensto6 him." Wewereworriedwiththemostimmediatething,
7 becausethewayIthoughtofitwasthekidsnowknowthat8 theschoolknowswhat'shappened,somethingwhichhasbeen9 ahushedupthingforallthistime,theschoolknowsand
10 it'sbusinessasusual. Whatarethekidsgoingtothink?11 It'sjustabsurd.12
13 Q. IwillreadonfromthefollowingpartsofMrCooper's14 statement:15
16 Aftermeetingwiththeconcernedparents,
17
I
discussed
thematter
immediately
with
18 RabbiGronerandtoaminorextentwith19 RabbiAvrohomGlickandPinchasAsh. After20 discussingthematteratlengthwithRabbi21 Gronerandreviewingallofthealternative22 coursesofaction,RabbiGronerdecidedto23 actimmediatelyandremoveDavidKramer24 fromtheclassasrequestedbytheparents.25
26 RabbiGronerwasconcernedwhetheritwas27 propertoconvictthesuspectwithouta28
fair
hearing
and
whether
the
school
would
29 beliableforunfairdismissal. Inviewof30 thefactthatKramerwasarecentimport31 andhadnotiestothecommunity,andin32 viewofthefactthatthefourparents33 concernedwerelongstandingandreputable34 membersofthecommunity,Gronerresolved35 thattheircomplaintshouldbebelievedand36 Kramershouldgo.37
38
A.
I
have
a
couple
of
comments
there.
I
want
to
see
what39 happenedjustbefore. Isitpossibletogetahardcopy,
40 becauseIwanttogobacktothewordsthatwerewritten41 andIcan'tseethem.42
43 Q. CanMrWaksbegivenahardcopyofthestatement?44 A. ThisisthefirsttimeIhaveseenthisstatementand45 itisextremelyinterestingtome. First,I'mhappytosee46 thatI'mnowoneofthe"longstanding,reputablemembersof47 thecommunity"becausethat'sbeenchallengedinthelast
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1 adnauseamatthebeginning,tolethimgetitout,2 Ithoughtthatmightbeenough. Ididn'tunderstandenough3 aboutitinthosedays. Therewasanoffermade. It4 wasn'tpursued. Itwasjust,"Wouldyouliketodoit?"5 "No,Iwouldn'tliketodoit,"andIthinkImighthave6 givenareasonandthatwasit. Therewasneveranymore7 discussed.8
9 Q. Thatofferwasmade,nonetheless?10 A. Correct. WhenIthinkaboutitnow,apropercourse11 ofactionbythesocialworkerorthepsychologistofthe12 schoolwouldhavebeentosuggestthattheymetwithmeand13 perhapsdiscusseditwithme. Itwasverystrangetothink14 thataparentunderthesecircumstanceswouldimmediately15 knowwhattodoandknowtherightcourseofaction.16 Ithinkthereshouldhavebeensomeprovisionmadetospeak
17
to
the
parent
as
well,
not
just
the
child.
Anyway.
18
19 Q. Allright. Butinanyeventtheschooldidoffer20 counsellingbut,leavingasidewhateverreason 21 A. Yes,itwasn'ttakenup.22
23 Q. Iwilljustreadon:24
25 IrelayedtheinstructiontoRabbiAshwho26 carriedoutthedismissalofRabbiKramer.27
28
Then
I
read
from
15:
29
30 IwasthencontactedbyDavidKramerwho31 vigorouslyprotestedhisinnocenceandsaid32 therewasawitchhuntagainsthim. Itold33 himthatasfarastheschoolwasconcerned34 inaccordancewithRabbiGroner's35 instructionsthatwewerenotpreparedto36 takeanyrisksinviewofthefactthat37 fourparentshadcomplainedagainsthim.38
39 Kramersaidthatitwasn'ttrueandthathe40 wouldfighttheunfairdismissal. Igave41 himachoice. Theschoolwaspreparedto42 payhisticketbacktoIsraelifheleft43 immediately,orhecouldstayandfightthe44 schoolandbeartheconsequences. Inother45 words,hecouldproveunfairdismissaland46 getdamages,ortheallegationswouldbe47 sustainedandhewouldgetnothingandface
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1 legalaction.2
3 Haveyouheardthatbefore,MrWaks?4 A. Neverhearditbefore. Itanswersmyquestionof5 suddenlynowwhythiswholethingisbroughtin. Inmy
6 opinion,it'sjustacomplete thisnowgivesareasonwhy7 theygothimoutofthecountry. Theywerejustdoingit
8 toprotectthemselves. Ithinkit'swonderful. I'msorry,9 I'mextremelycynicalaboutthis. Neverhearditbefore,
10 no.11
12 Q. NotwithstandingRabbiKramer'sprotestationsof13 innocenceatthetime,youknow,don'tyou,MrWaks,that14 whenhewasultimatelyextraditedbacktoAustraliaand15 couldnolongerescapethecharges,hepleadedguilty,did16 henot?
17
A.
Correct.
But
I
don't
even
understand
this
whole
thing18 becauseeverybodyknewthathehadalreadyadmittedhalf
19 thestuff. Howcanheprotest infact,thisactually20 backsupmycynicismjustnow. HowcanCooperreallywrite21 thisnonsensewhentheguyhasadmitted? Whywouldn'the22 justtellhimback,"Butyouadmitted." Hesaysit'sa23 witchhunt,unfairdismissal. Whatunfairdismissal? "You24 havealreadyadmittedeverythingtoGlick." Howcouldthis25 wholestorypossiblybetrue,really?26
27 Q. Wereyouawarethattheschoolhadpaidfor 28
A.
After
the
event,
yes.
I
also
note
here
in
17:
29
30 Hebeggedmetolethimstaytowinduphis31 affairs,andtravelback 32
33 Andeverything. Ionlyfoundoutayearagothatinfact34 peopleintheschool,highuppeople,hadhelpedhimsell35 allhisthingsandeverythinglikethat,alldonesecretly.36 Onlycertainpeopleknewaboutit. AsItoldyou,thebulk37 oftheschoolcommunity,everybodywasshockedwhenhe
38
left.
But
people
related
to
and
involved
with
the
high
up
39 peoplewereinvolvedinhelpinghimsellhiscar,sellhis40 furniture,someofthemevenboughtthethingsthemselves.41 That'swhysomeofthembecamesomalicioustowardsme.42 TheymusthavethoughtIknewaboutitandIdidn'tknow43 aboutitatthatstage. Ionlyfoundoutmuchlaterthat44 someoftheworstoffenderstowardsmewerepeoplewhowere45 involvedinactuallyhelpinghimdisposeofhisproperty46 beforeheleft. Soherewenowhaveamagicalreasonwhy47 theydidthis. Thiswasallconnectedwithunfair
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1 dismissalandeverything. Isitjustbogglesthemind.2
3 Q. Allright. Iwillleavethatstatementforthe4 moment. Youweregoingoninyourstatementtotalkabout5 theconvictionofKramer,butIwilltakethatpartofthe6 statement. YousayKramerresidedinIsraelforseveral
7 yearsandhewasinfactthen hedidtraveltothe8 UnitedStateswhereheabusedanotherchildandwas9 convictedofthoseoffences,servedasentenceandthen
10 chargeswerelaidmuchlaterinAustralia. Hefought11 extradition,asyouknow,andthenpleadedguiltytothe12 offencesagainstyoursons,twoofyoursons,andwas13 sentencedtoimprisonmentforthoseoffences.14 A. Mmmhmm.15
16 Q. Anditwouldappear,ifIgobacktoMrCooper's
17
statement,
that
in
fact
after
he
left
Australia
he
tried
to18 seekemploymentinnorthernIsraelasateacher. If
19 Icouldreadparagraph19ofMrCooper'sstatement:20
21 Sometimelaterwereceivedacallfroma22 schoolinnorthernIsraelenquiringabout23 Kramerasaprospectiveteacherandwe24 advisedthemnottoemployhimandthathe25 hadleftMelbourneunderacloud.26
27 Ifthatisinfactwhatoccurred,thatsomeonewastold28
that
a
teacher
had
left
under
a
cloud
rather
than
telling
29 anotherschoolthathehadbeenaccusedofsexually30 assaultingchildrenandhehadmadeadmissions,whatdoyou31 thinkaboutthat,MrWaks?32 A. Again,themindboggles. Iwasintouch Ihadsome33 relativesandthenafriendwhoIgotinvolvedintheplace34 hewaslivinginIsrael. It'snotexactlynorthernIsrael.35 Idon'tknowifhewasinvolvedeverasateacherthere.36 Hewascertainlyinvolvedasamajorcharismaticfigurein37 thesynagogueandinchargeoftheyouthgroupinthe
38
synagogue.
I
eventually
convinced
this
friend
of
mine
who39 livedthereofwhathadhappenedhere. Heatthebeginning
40 couldn'tbelieveit. Hecouldn'tbelieveitbecausethe41 guywassocharismatic. Hewastheguywhocalledpeople42 uptothereadingoftheTorah. Hewasamajor,respected,43 reputablefigurethere. Theycouldn'tbelieveit. This44 guy,friendofmine,actuallytoldtherabbithereandthey45 couldn'tbelieveiteitherbecausetheysaidiftherehad46 beensomeproblemlikethistheywouldhavebeennotified47 byAustralia. Forgetaboutaschoolringingup. Therewas
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1 alsoalltheseotherthingsofyouthgroups,contactwith2 kids;nothingwaseverdone. Ittookafewyearsbefore3 theyactuallybelievedthatanythinghadhappened.4
5 It'smyimpressionnowthatthat'sonlybecausehe6 actuallyoffendedandactually Iknowonevictimofrape7 ofhisinIsrael. SoIjustfindthis Ifindit8 offensive,thisthingthattheywererungupandtheytold9 themandthenheleftandtheydidn'temployhimor
10 whatever. Itwasjustacompletelackofdoinganything11 whilehewasthere.12
13 Q. Wewillexplorethatlaterinthisinquiry,MrWaks.14 AfterthetriptoIsraelthatyoutalkaboutandthen15 speakingtoRabbiKramer'spsychologist,wasthatthelast16 thingyouhadtodowithRabbiKrameruntilthe
17
investigation
much
later
on?18 A. I'mnotcertain. No,it'snotthelasttime. No,it
19 definitelywasn'tthelasttime. Atonestageoneofhis20 victimswasinthearmyinIsraelandhestartedtoget21 thoughts actuallyverymuchasMannydescribedyesterday22 afterwardsinthearmyandeverythinglikethat. He23 startedthinkingoftheideaofactuallyexposinghimin24 Israelorgettinghimtogoback somethinglikethat.25
26 Soagainwehadeitherdiscussionsorspoketopeople.27 Idon'trememberwhattheoutcomeofitwas. Ithinkin28
the
end
he
didn't
want
to
proceed.
But
there
was
29 definitelymoremovementandthought. Idon'tknowhowfar30 itgot. Idon'trememberiftherewerephonecallsmadeto31 people. Ithinkatonestagemaybethreatsweremadeto32 Kramer,"Ifyoudon'tcomeforwardyourself" Idon't33 rememberwhereitwent. Buttherewasdefinitelyanother34 periodbetweenthosetwotimes. ButIdon'tknowwhatcame35 ofit. Intheendnothingcameofit.36
37 Q. IaskedyouearlieraboutRamonLewisandyouhavegiven
38
some
evidence
that
you
spoke
to
some
psychologists?39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. Washethepsychologist?42 A. Himandhiswife. Ididn'twanttosaytheirnames.43 Theywereverygoodfamilyfriends,aswellasbeing44 perfectpeopletospeakto:aprofessorofpsychologyanda45 practisingpsychologist. Theywerejustreallyasshocked46 asme,exceptthattheygavethe,"Okay,youreallycan't47 takeitasnothing,"buttheyweren'tanymoreconvinced
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1 thanIwasthatreallyanythinghadhappenedbecauseitwas2 justsounbelievable. Thethingwas,"Isitokayevento
3 goandspeaktoRabbiGlick? Thisisjustsofarfetched.4 Shallwedoanythingaboutit?" "Yes,youhavetogoand
5 dosomethingaboutit."6
7 Q. Wearenowgoingtomoveontothepartofyour8 evidencethatdealswithManny'sdisclosureofabuse.9 Inotethetime.
10
11 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Yes. Perhapsit'sanappropriate12 timetogiveMrWaksabreak. Sowewilltakea15minute13 breaknow.14
15 SHORTADJOURNMENT16
17
MS
GERACE:
Your
Honour,
just
before
going
back
to18 MrWaks,couldItender,please,document208,whichwas
19 thepolicestatementofProfessorRamonLewisreDavid20 Kramerdated24May2011.21
22 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: 226.23
24 EXHIBIT#226POLICESTATEMENTOFPROFESSORRAMONLEWISRE25 DAVIDKRAMERDATED24MAY201126
27 MSGERACE: CanItenderthedocumentattab78,whichis
28
the
statement
of
Harry
Cooper
to
the
police
dated
29 1December2011.30
31 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: 227.32
33 EXHIBIT#227POLICESTATEMENTOFHARRYCOOPERDATED34 1DECEMBER201135
36 MSGERACE: CanItendertwodocumentsthatwerereferred37 toyesterdayinevidence,onebeing32,extractsfrom38 CommitteeofManagement;minutesoftheYeshivahCommittee39 ofManagement. TheywerereferredtolateinMrWaks's40 evidence.41
42 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: 228.43
44 EXHIBIT#228EXTRACTSFROMCOMMITTEEOFMANAGEMENT;45 MINUTESOFTHEYESHIVAHCOMMITTEEOFMANAGEMENT46
47 MSGERACE: Iwillleavetheremainingtender. MrWaks,
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1 canInowaskyou,please,togiveyourevidencetothe2 CommissionaboutManny'sdisclosureofhisabuseandask3 youtoread,please,paragraphs30,31and32ofyour
4 statement?5 A. InDecember1996,afterthecommencementofOperation6 Paradox,acommunityawarenesscampaignagainstchild7 sexualabuse,mysonMannytoldmethathehadbeen
8 sexuallyabusedbyamannamedDavidCyprysfor9 approximatelyoneandahalfyearswhenhewasan
10 adolescent. IunderstandthatCypryswasapproximately11 20yearsoldatthetime. Cypryswasasecurityguardat12 theYeshivahCentreandthelocksmithattheYeshivah13 College. Cypryswasalsoinvolvedinafterschool14 activitieswiththechildren,includingmartialarts.15 Cypryshadunfetteredaccesstotheentirepremisesofthe16 YeshivahCollegeandYeshivahCentre.
17
18 Atsomestageinthe1990sItriedtorestrict19 Cyprys'saccesstotheYeshivahpremisessothathewould20 onlybeallowedtobethereduringprayertimes. Icannot21 nowrecallifthiswasbeforeorafterMannytoldmethat22 hehadbeenabusedbyCyprys. Idrewupadocumentfor23 CyprystosignrestrictinghisaccesstotheYeshivah24 premisesessentiallytoprayertimesonly,butCyprys25 wouldn'tagreeanddidn'tsign. Irecallspeakingtoother26 membersofthecommunity,includingRabbiGlick,aboutthis27 matter. RabbiGlicktoldmethatRabbiGronerwasalso28
against
such
restrictions.
No
one
else
was
prepared
to
do
29 anythingandIwastoldthatCypryswasnowcured,so30 Ileftitatthat.31
32 AssoonasMannytoldmeabouttheabusewereported33 ittothepolice. On17September1996Mannymadea34 statementtothepoliceabouttheabuse. Cypryswas35 subsequentlyinterviewed. Thepoliceinformedusthat36 CyprysdeniedManny'sallegationsandthatitwasacaseof37 Manny'swordagainstCyprys'sword,andthatthecasewould
38
remain
open
until
further
evidence
came
to
light.
The39 matterdidnotproceedanyfurtheratthistimebecauseof
40 alackofcorroboratingevidence.41
42 Q. MrWaks,youspoketoRabbiGlickaboutrestricting43 DavidCyprys'saccesswithinthepremises. Youcan't44 recallwhetherthatwasbeforeorafterMannyspoketoyou45 abouthavingbeenabusedby 46 A. Correct,Icannotrecall. ButIremembertheevents47 veryclearly.
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1
2 Q. Toexplorethepossibilitythatithappenedbeforeyou3 spoketoMannyorbeforeMannyspoketoyou,didyouhave
4 anyotherinformationthatsuggestedDavidCyprysshouldbe5 restrictedfromhavingaccesstotheYeshivahCentre?
6 A. Well,weknewabouttheearliercase. Everybodyknew7 aboutthat. Whyitwouldhavesuddenlycomeup,Ijust 8 maybeittookayearortwo,maybeIdidn'tknowaboutit9 instantlyatthetime,maybeit'swhenIheardaboutit.
10 It'sfeasiblethatitwasbeforethatitwouldhavebeen11 related. Howmanyyearsbeforewastheearliercaseto12 the 13
14 Q. In1992DavidCypryswasconvictedoftheindecent15 assault,andin1996yoursondisclosedtoyouthat 16 A. Fouryears. Itcouldhavebeenthatweonlyheard
17
about
it
two
years
later.
I
don't
remember
the
timeframes.18 Pureconjecture.
19
20 Q. OneofthethingsweheardfromMannyWaksyesterday21 wasofwhatareliefitwaswhenhedisclosedtoyouhis22 abuseandyouimmediatelybelievedhim. Itwasadifferent23 positionwithMannythanithadbeenwithyourearlier24 children?25 A. Exactly.26
27 Q. Earlierdisclosures?28
A.
That's
correct.
Even
though
people
think
it's
29 wonderfulthatIbelievedhim,butunfortunatelyitwasthe30 background,yes.31
32 Q. Wasittheearliercomplaintsbyyourotherchildren?33 A. Well,itwasn'tconscious,Idon'tthink. But,34 Imean,itwasnolonger itjustwasn'tlikethefirst35 time,especiallysinceIhadalreadyseenwhathadhappened36 afterwards;nothing. BythatstageIthinkIwouldhave37 alreadyknownthathewasoffending thatKramerwas
38
already
offending
in
Israel.
So,
you
know,
it
was
a
very39 differentsetofcircumstances.
40
41 Q. Whatwasitlikeforyouastheparenttohavetodeal42 withManny'sdisclosure?43 A. Thatwasworsethanthefirstcasebecauseitwasvery44 bad. IfeltIhadfailedhim. InthefirstcaseIknew45 thatthewhole probablythewholeoftwoclasses,maybe46 therewere60victims. HereIonlyreallyknewabouthim47 whenhetoldme,andI'dfeltIhadfailedhim,yes.
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1
2 Q. YouwereinvolvedinthedecisionwithMannyonthis3 occasionafterhisdisclosuretoimmediatelygotothe4 police?
5 A. Yes,itwasanobrainer. That'swhyIsaidbefore6 that theconceptof thiswasjust thetaboohadbeen
7 brokenandIdidn'tthinkaboutitasecondanymore.8 Ijustknewithadtobedone. Therewasno...9
10 Q. Wasthatinpartinformedagainbythisknowledgeof11 whathadhappenedwhenKramerwentbacktoIsrael?12 A. Thewhole yes,everything,andseeingthatnothing13 hadbeendoneandpeoplehadalreadychangedtheirstories.14 Isawhowithadbeendealtwith. Itwasn'tevena15 consciousdecision. Itwasjustassoonashetoldme,16 that'sit.
17
18 Q. Howdidyoureacttohearingthatthepoliceweren't19 goingtoproceedfurther?20 A. Iwasupset,butIunderstoodthem. Iknowhowthings21 weredone. Ibelievedwordagainstwordwasaproblem.22 Ijustdon'trememberifatthetimewewerethinkingit's23 strangebecausethere'sbeenthisprevioushistory;Idon't24 rememberhowwe ifweignoreditwhywewouldhave25 ignoredit. Maybeweeventoldthemandtheysaidthey26 can'tbringitin. Idon'tknowwhat. Itlookstomevery27 strangenowwhyitwouldn'tbeabasisofgivingabitmore28
weight
to
one
side
than
the
other.
29
30 Q. CanIaskyouyousaythatCypryswasasecurityguard31 attheYeshivahCentreandalocksmith. Wasthatsomething32 youhadseen?33 A. Yes,everyone ShomerSecuritywaswrittenupin34 Yeshivah. Itwascommonknowledge.35
36 Q. Didyouoftenseehimonthecentreornot?37 A. Allthetime. Yes,hewasalwaysaround. Hehadthe
38
perfect
alibi.39
40 Q. Leavingasidethat,butIjustwanttogobacktowhat41 yousawaroundthistime,andyoudescribingaround42 September1996,andI'maskingyouabouteitherthatperiod43 ortheyearsbefore,saybetween1992andnow,didyousee44 DavidCyprysthereatthecentre? Didhelooklikehewas45 standingsecurityoutsidethesynagogueorforthecentre?46 A. No,notlikeinthesedays,notlikelater. Hewas47 knownasthe notinthesamewayasalaterstagewhich
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1 Mannydescribedit. Hewasdoing theyhadsecurityon2 thepremises. Hewasthesecurity. ShomerSecurity,you3 wouldseethestickersupeverywhere. Andalsothekeys.
4 Youjustknew. Hewasaroundallthetime.5
6 Q. Didhehaveasortofroleasacaretakeralmost?7 A. Itwasalmostthatsortoflevelofhimbeingthere.8 Hewasthereallthetime,andespeciallyatoddhours,
9 yes.10
11 Q. Allright. Ithinkyouthengooninyourstatement12 todescribeManny'spublicstatementabouttheabuse,and13 I'mgoingtoaskyounowtoreadonfromparagraph33,14 please?15 A. InJuly2011Mannymadeapublicstatementthathewas16 sexualabusedasateenagerattheYeshivahCentrein
17
Melbourne.
18
19 BeforeMannymadethestatementhesaidtome,"I'm20 thinkingofgoingpublic,whatdoyouthink?" Thefirst21 thoughtthatIhadwasthatoneofmydaughterswasof22 marriageableageandIwonderedifitmightaffecther23 marriageprospects. HoweverIdidnotpreventMannyfrom24 makingthestatementbecauseIknewhowimportantitwas25 forhimtomakethestatementaftersomanyyears. Iwas26 notgoingtostandinhisway.27
28
At
the
time
I
thought
Manny
going
public
meant
just
29 talkingtopeopleaboutit. Ididn'trealisehemeant30 makinganofficialpublicstatementinthemediaand31 everything. IfIhadknownhewasgoingtomakean32 officialpublicstatementImayhaveexpressedmyconcerns33 tohimmorestrongly. Eitherway,Iwouldnothavestopped34 himfrommakingthestatement.35
36 AfterManny'spublicstatementIexperienced37 intimidationandisolationfromtheYeshivahcommunity.
38
I
felt
that
leaders,
members
and
many
then
friends
from
the
39 YeshivahCentrecommunitytalkednegativelyaboutmebehind40 mybackandwereveryunapproachable. Asdetailedbelow,41 IwasexcludedfromChabadcustoms,refusedspiritual42 blessingsbyseniorYeshivahleaders,physicallyassaulted43 inthesynagoguebyamemberoftheYeshivahcommunityand44 IlostmanypeoplethatIconsideredtobegoodfriends.45 IdetectedachangeinbehaviourtowardsmebyYeshivah46 communitymembers. IamnolongerapartoftheYeshivah47 community. However,Idonotfeelthatthiswasbychoice.
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1 Iamhappytobeoutofitnow,butitwasdifficulttoget2 tothatstage. DuringthetimewhenIwastryingtostaya3 partoftheYeshivahCentrecommunityitwasvery
4 difficult. Thattimewasparticularlydifficultformy5 wife,Haya,asshewasveryinvolvedinthesocialaspect
6 oftheYeshivahCentrecommunity.7
8 AssoonasMannywentpublicIwasconcernedaboutthe9 consequencesforourfamily. On11July2011Isentan
10 emailtoNechamaBendetattheYeshivahCentre shewas11 thegeneralmanageratthetime whichIaskedhertosend12 ontoeveryonewhoshouldseeit. IaskedfortheYeshivah13 leadershiptowritetothecommunitysayingthattheydo14 notblameMannyforgoingpublic,thattherestofhis15 familyhadnothingtodowithhimgoingpublicandnotto16 blamethem,andthattheyreallydowantpeopletofully
17
cooperate
with
the
police.
I
reinforced
this
request
in18 furtheremailsoverthenextfewdays,askingfor
19 unequivocalleadershiptotakethepressureoffmyfamily.20 AlthoughIreceivedbriefresponsesfromDonWolf,the21 communicationIhadaskedforwasnotsent.22
23 Q. CanIaskyounowaboutthat. Didyousufferan24 almostimmediateresponsefromthecommunityfollowing25 Manny'spublicdisclosureorthearticleappearinginthe26 newspaper?27 A. Yes. ThearticleappearedIthink cameoutThursday28
night
or
Friday.
We
were
in
Canberra,
where
he
was
living
29 atthetimebecausehehadwhat'scalledopsherenish,the30 firsthaircutatage3,andwewerethereforthatSabbath.31 Peopleimmediatelyconnectedthatwehadranawayforthat32 Sabbathbecauseitwasinthepaper. Totallynonsense,but33 anyway. SoIdidn'tcomebackuntiltheSundayorthe34 Monday. AssoonasIwalkedintothesynagoguethefirst35 timeIcouldjustfeelarrowsaimedatme,anditjustwent36 onfromthereuntilthefirstSabbathwhenIwasback. So37 thatmeansaweeklaterthatwasthefamoussermon.
3839 Q. Iwilltakeyoutothesermoninaminute. Interms
40 ofyourexperienceofcomingback,letmeexplorethata41 littlebitmore. Wasitsomethingpeoplesaidorwasit42 somethingpeopledidn'tsay? Didyouhavefewerpeople43 sayinghello?44 A. Both. Ican'trememberanyparticularthings,but45 peoplemadecommentstomebothactivelyandpassively,46 yes.47
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1 Q. Intermsofpassively,diditconsistofpeople2 perhapsnotsayinggoodmorningor 3 A. Yes,notsayinggoodmorning,lookswhichcouldkill,
4 becausethiswasreallymajor. Itwasthefrontpageof5 TheAgeanditwas TheAgeisnot it'sconsideredby
6 themanantiSemiticnewspaper,which shallIgoon?7
8 Q. Well...9 A. It'sveryamusingbecausethat'sbeenusedasa
10 reason,"WhydidhegotoTheAge?"TheAgewasnogood.11 TheJewishNewsisnogoodbecausethat'santireligious.12 Soitreallyturnsout,"Thereisnonewspaperyoushould13 havegoneto." Buteachthingwasusedateveryparticular14 stagetoattack,tovilify.15
16 Q. Didpeopletellyouorsay,"WhyTheAge?"
17
A.
They
may
have
had
reasons
or
not.
It
had
been18 antiIsraelatdifferenttimes. Whatever. Ireallydon't
19 know. AlreadyfromthatstageItrustedhisjudgmentin20 havingspokentothatjournalist,andsincemeetingher21 afterthatIknewshewasnotantiSemitic. Ihavenoidea22 aboutthepaper. Ididn'tbuythenewspaper. Idon'tknow23 it. Idon'treallyreadnewspapers. Ikn