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Episode #46 Jessica White Plume (Completed 07/16/21)Transcript by Rev.com

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Speaker 1 (00:00:07):

You're listening to the journey on podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick is a horseman trainer, international clinician and author, whose mission is to help people achieve a deeper connection with their horses through his transformational training program. Just be causing that. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the junior on the podcast.

Warwick Schiller (00:00:35):

I'm your host, Warwick Schiller And you know, as this journey goes on for me, I feel like my intuition has Been developing a little bit more and I've had a couple of podcast guests too, Where I Just had a feeling like that would make good podcast guests. And

Warwick Schiller (00:00:57):

Here a while ago I was contacted by a Lakota horse woman by the name of Jessica White plume. And Jessica is a, um, she has a PhD in psychology, but her and her husband do, uh, a lot of like equine-assisted therapy type work on the reservation in North Dakota. And, and, um, just when she, she messaged me and I was fascinated by her her journey. And so I, I thought she would be a great podcast guest. And so we've, we've, uh, had her on the, I did the interview with her and it was, um, deeply moving for me as you'll find out here in a minute. And, uh, I just, yeah, it was it's amazing conversation and it just really probably reiterated to me that my intuition than I thought I I've never really had is, um, is growing stronger because I had, you know, I had some intuition to think that Jessica would be a great podcast guest and she was that, but there was something else that happened in his podcast that I think I really needed as well. So, um, I'll let you guys listen to the podcast and make your own joy, your own conclusions. But, uh, I, uh, I, I think you guys will get as much out of this conversation with Jessica as I did Jessica White plan, welcome to the journey on podcast.

Jessica White Plume (00:02:35):

I'm really excited to be here. So pleased to meet you.

Warwick Schiller (00:02:39):

Oh, I'm pleased to meet you. And so excited. You're on the podcast now, you know, most of my podcasts guests I have on here, I ha I know, I don't know a fair bit about them before they come on. And that makes it a little bit easier, but I know very little about you. Um, you know, you contacted me a while ago on a Facebook messenger and said that you, uh, you'd been listening to the podcast and you're kind of interested in my journey and where things are going. Cause it's, it resonates with you. So why don't we start there and talk about what that little conversation was about?

Jessica White Plume (00:03:16):

Sure. Yeah. You know, I I'm at this stage in my life and we'll probably talk about earlier stages, but, you know, I listened to a lot of teachers and speakers and, and lots of fields like yourself and, and a fair amount of trainers. I mean, there's so many, so many good trainers out there, but, um, I came across yours and I just really enjoyed it and felt like it was, um, really different, you know, and just appreciated how you were so honest and open about, uh, kind of taking a new look at everything that you're doing anyway. I just thought you were so spot on. And, um, I tried to make it a habit now, you know, I'm a pretty comfortable place in life. And sometimes there's that programming when you come across something awesome that, you know, wow, it's really neat for someone somewhere out there.

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Jessica White Plume (00:04:10):

And sometimes I catch myself from like, you know, that's, that might be reachable, whether it's like a workshop with the, my favorite author or, you know, like yourself, you're on messenger. Like I could send them a message. What's the worst that could happen, you know? And, and to my pleasant surprise, you answered. And yeah, I really loved what you were doing, especially, um, you know, I resonated with a lot of learning that I'm doing anyway, and also of course, with kind of our indigenous views of horsemanship and horses and, um, um, you know, a more holistic approach to things and relationship-based approach. And it was just really, um, I wanted to contribute to that energy, I guess, whatever journey you're on. I feel like it's a good momentum to try to add, add my little 2 cents into. So I'm excited, you answered,

Warwick Schiller (00:05:03):

Uh, I'm excited for this. It'll be more than 2 cents. So you, uh, I Oglala Lakota, is that correct?

Jessica White Plume (00:05:12):

Yep. I am. Um, my name is , my Lakota name. I'll have to introduce myself that way. I'm from the Tetouan Luhr D, which is the seven bands of the, where they're called the Sioux now and the pay band, which is in the Manderson wounded knee, South Dakota area. And my, uh, family name is watching Scott, which is white for, so that's where I'm from, where I was raised. Um, that's my place, but, um, I'm also now married up here in North Dakota and I'm happily transplanted with my, my family here, but I was actually born in Germany and, uh, my dad, so my dad is Lakota and he joined the army, like many kind of displaced native men, you know, they couldn't hunt, they couldn't, you know, be warriors and, and they needed jobs. So many, um, many, many native men enrolled in the army.

Jessica White Plume (00:06:09):

So there's lots of half German and have different, you know, biracial native kids out there. And so I was born in Germany and I started riding there. I have very few memories cause I wasn't there very long, but I did start writing there in Germany. And, um, I remember doing some counts, writing a little pony that would kind of like stop hard and I roll off sometimes and I did some vaulting, which was really good for balance, you know, and just a super cool thing you can do in Germany. A lot of people have vaulting lessons. Yeah. So that was really, uh, start with horses. And then when I was pretty young, like maybe seven-ish, my mom brought me to South Dakota to meet my dad. And, um, she wanted me to know my dad and you know, our culture and everything. And um, so this was really a big pivotal moment.

Jessica White Plume (00:07:06):

So I met my dad and he had prepared a horse for me, you know, he knew I was coming and I was, I get on my horse, but I didn't know English and they didn't know German. So I had, there was a translator or something. And I said, well, where is the riding area? Where do I ride? Like, because in Germany there's not as much space. And there's like arenas. And I said, well, you know, where's my writing area. And he just like swept his arm across these rolling Hills. And that was in the miles. And he said, this is all our land. You ride wherever you want to ride. And I insisted on staying. I told my mom I wasn't leaving anymore. So I stayed with my dad. I stayed with my dad there. Yep. So that's how I got to stay in South Dakota and lived with my dad there.

Jessica White Plume (00:07:54):

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We're pretty, um, pretty active in our traditional ways. And he's a, you know, fluent speaker and my aunts and uncles are, and horses are just a big part of our, um, our lives and our culture and um, where we are. Um, it was just a huge, huge part of my upbringing. Gosh, that's a understatement. So there on the reservation, I don't know if you know about the pine Ridge reservation. It's very poor. It's like statistically, you know, the poorest county in the nation and super high risk and, you know, lots of things there that are, um, you know, maybe not good, but also just equally powerfully good things. So our language is really strong or cultures are really still intact. We have a lot of horses, we have a lot of Buffalo. Um, and, um, so I feel like I just had a really rich upbringing and kind of all of those ways.

Warwick Schiller (00:08:56):

Um, so your father was in the army, um, then your mother had you, but he w he left and come back to the U S

Jessica White Plume (00:09:05):

Right? Yeah. They had split when I was still a baby. I don't really remember that. So I was with her in Germany and he was here, but then she wanted me to come back and know him and

Warwick Schiller (00:09:16):

Wow, that's amazing. And so how old were you then when you came back?

Jessica White Plume (00:09:20):

I was really young, like six or seven maybe. And it was maybe eight was a huge jump because again, I didn't know English. So you only spoke German. I only spoke to her and when she left, she didn't really want to associate with my dad. So she left. So I didn't really have anybody to speak German with. I learned English super fast and like a, you know, a short time cause I had to go to school, but the horses of course were our meeting ground. Like all my family, I just thought it was so cool. This little, you know, blonde kid, Alex's daughter from afar shows up, but she look at her, she could ride a horse, you know, it's so great. Um, so it really was like our, our meeting place and they kind of continued to be my, um, my way to be happy and stay healthy through some, some pretty tough times. And of course also have a lot of fun. We have a lot of like traditional horse games and things like that, like at the powwows or just at our own land, we have Lakota war, pony races. And so of course that's super fun and, um, kinda allow me to have some success as a, as a kid who was facing some also some challenges, you know?

Warwick Schiller (00:10:32):

Um, well, I imagine it would be very hard to be seven years old and then live with one parent and then leave with another one that you've, you don't really know how was that?

Jessica White Plume (00:10:43):

It was, yeah, I mean, it was, I remember distinctly remember meeting my dad what I remember as meeting him when I was seven or eight, you know, and like I recognize him. So I felt like we had some kind of connection, but of course he doesn't know English or German, I didn't know English. And, um, yeah, it was quite something. And, um, you know, he was orphaned and his parents were in boarding school, you know, all that historical trauma stuff. So he didn't really have parents. He didn't really know how to parent, but he was just such a, such a special, powerful, phenomenal, amazing person. And, um, we had a really strong emotional connection. And so we kind of connected through, through horses

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being outside. They kind of let me do a lot of stuff where it could have been really strict with the gender roles.

Jessica White Plume (00:11:38):

So I, I would leave of course always riding or go cutting wood or like he was, he, uh, he was a director for the parks and recreation for the tribe, the Oglala Sioux tribe. And we had a lot of Buffalo, the tribe had a lot of Buffalo, so would round up Buffalo on horseback. And in hindsight having kids now, I'm like, wow, that's pretty cool. I don't know if I do that with my kids, but it was, it was really, like I said, it was in some ways really, really hard, but now of course I don't regret a moment of any of it, you know, um, because of course it makes me who I am now and, and brings me to this place and my family. And I mean, I would never change a minute of it. God forbid I ended up in a city somewhere. I mean, no offense to city folks, but I'm just really happy. Everything was how it was, I guess it couldn't be any other the wave. So

Warwick Schiller (00:12:35):

Yeah. Yeah. I think everything happens for a reason and we end up where we're supposed to end up, but so we're going to, I'm going to Bumble through this a little bit because, you know, I grew up in Australia, but I think even if I grew up in America, I think the way history is taught in schools is we didn't really get nobody get the full story or, you know, the real story. And so you just, you know, you hinted at your, you said your father was basically off the new set about the boarding schools. So was that, uh, you know, they just recently had the older, the stuff in Canada with the graves and stuff. And so I've been reading a little bit about that. Was it the same here too, where they took, uh, native kids away from their parents and put them in boarding schools? Is that what happened?

Jessica White Plume (00:13:27):

It was so once, um, the court on court, Indian wars were kind of finishing and, um, there were still some the, the, you know, if you look at the records, the intent was to just really get rid of all the natives, but there were some remaining. And so then the new policy was to assimilate them, excuse me. And the, the goal, the purpose of the boarding school, um, there were kind of commissioned by the government, but they were Catholic boarding schools was to, um, save the child and kill the Indian. So they, you know, took the children, they were babies and cut their hair and it was terribly abusive to say the least. And, um, and many ways, you know, physically abusive, sexually abusive, obviously they're just kind of earthing this massive number of bodies, children that were just killed and, you know, they didn't have graves or anything.

Jessica White Plume (00:14:28):

So it was, um, yeah, it was, it was really bad. And, um, you're right. I forget that a lot of people just were not aware. And so it would be shocking to, to be an American, you know, really, to come to terms with, I think it is hard for a lot of Americans to try to come to terms with, you know, this history with native peoples and some of it was unfair and, you know, the kind of the easy parts of the culture of the beautiful parts, the, you know, Indian running on a horse long time ago is everybody can love that, but it's hard to come to terms with the more difficult pieces. So I feel like that's a big part of, some of our work now is, um, teaching people how to be good allies. And there are a lot of non-native people, people from around the world who want to learn more and they're like, well, can I do anything?

Jessica White Plume (00:15:22):

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You know, what am I supposed to do here? And so that's kind of a, I feel like it's a big chunk of at least where I'm at is trying to, you know, not get stuck in a place of sadness and anger, but be like, well, the truth helps us to be, you know, open and honest with each other in reality, but also we want to move forward. And how do we do that? What does that look like? Um, so we spend a lot of our time doing, doing that. And again, the horses, um, help with that. They help with everything, you know, but that's a big part of it for me because I have to come into the world in a, in a centered kind of peaceful good, healthy way. And, um, aside from the programs that we do, you kind of have to start in the center, right? You have to start with yourself. And so the horse has helped me to go about things and projects and work and healing without being too overwhelmed with the challenges or, you know, the sad parts, but kind of focus on the good parts and the healing, you know?

Warwick Schiller (00:16:33):

Yeah. You know, I think it's actually quite similar in Australia. We had a thing called, uh, the stolen generation where they, they did the same thing. They, um, you know, that it took the children away from their parents and put them in, in boarding schools. There's actually a very good movie about that called rabbit proof fence. I don't know if you've ever seen rabbit proof fence, but

Jessica White Plume (00:17:01):

Yeah. Very, very similar. Yeah. And the colonization around the world, the stories are very, very similar. And I wondered about that too. I mean, like how that has been for you as an Australian. And, um, I wanted to go to Australia, you know, it just seemed like I've got just little tidbits from movies and media and whatnot about the Australian aboriginals and the, you know, the dream world. And, um, just trying to, I'd like to learn more about that and hear about it, but you're right. There's so many similarities. A lot of similarities. Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (00:17:42):

Yeah. You're probably not going to find much truth in movies, you know, that's like,

Jessica White Plume (00:17:45):

Right. Yeah. Same here. I can certain ones though, if someone's interested, there's, there's more documentaries now and good movie.

Warwick Schiller (00:17:55):

Yeah. And, and books, you know, I'm just listening about halfway right now through a book called, uh, no, the Wolf nor dog.

Jessica White Plume (00:18:07):

I heard of that, but I have not read it. You haven't, I might've heard about it from you on another podcast.

Warwick Schiller (00:18:12):

No, that's the first time I've mentioned that only just someone told me I've had several people tell me to read it and I'm just reading it now. And it's about a, uh, a white journalist who, for some reason he's drawn to interview a, I'm pretty sure he's a Lakota elder and lived with him for quite a while and, and, and gets the whole story out of him. And it's, and it's pretty fascinating because it's not what you, what

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are his views and not what I thought they'd be in. Uh, yeah. It's, it's very interesting, you know, like he, and I wish I had read it cause I was gonna I'm sure you'd understand if I talk about it, what he's on about, but this, this elder, you know, he's always complaining about how everybody wants to be and well, he used the term Indian, you guys, I'm going to get that.

Jessica White Plume (00:19:19):

Um, we use it, you know, it's, I mean, most people do. It's not

Warwick Schiller (00:19:25):

Correct. It's not really, I ran out of American.

Jessica White Plume (00:19:28):

Yeah. American or indigenous, you know, indigenous kind of means kind of belonging to the land.

Warwick Schiller (00:19:33):

Yeah. There's kind of covers every indigenous person from every country I'm going to get with native American here. But, um, so he says, you know, well, I'm going to quote him cause he says he knew, but he says, you know, all these people want to be Indian. And he says, well, the thing I like about you is you didn't show up wearing turquoise rings and feathers in your hair. And, and, and, and it was really interesting. His take on people that are attracted to the native American culture and the, the, the spiritual part of it and the connection to the land that he, you know, he says there, he says they trying to be Indian and that, you know, they didn't like that. And that's the, and that really kind of, I dunno, stopped me in my tracks a little, because there's all this cool stuff that I'm Ahmed I'm attracted to about a lot of indigenous cultures or all, and really, and you kind of the, yeah, that's cool. But you know, I, I, you know, we don't really have an, uh, an education and approach in appropriation and What's doable And what's not acceptable and what's not, and it's, yeah. Kind of threw me for a loop actually, because there's all this stuff that I'd like to, that I just find is like, you know, you've listened to some of the podcasts and I've got a huge, uh, interest in shamanism. So, you know, all types of, uh, indigenous healing and ways of knowing, I guess, and it's, it's fascinates me, but that book kind of stopped me like, oh, what am I supposed to be doing this isn't cool. Is it not cool. So do you have anything to say about that?

Jessica White Plume (00:21:30):

Sure, sure. I mean, first of all, it was pretty clear that you're kind of going by first do no harm. Like I don't want to be offensive to somebody. And so that's, it sounds like that's your way of being respectful to, just to just back off a little bit. Um, so I appreciate that as opposed to showing up today with the hairdressers. Just kidding. But, um, my take is that, um, I mean, I, I really get what he's talking about because it can get to the level of frustrating. There are lots of, especially in Europe, especially in Germany, there are lots of, um, pretend deacons and there are entire powwows and ceremonies. And

Warwick Schiller (00:22:11):

Could you just say the word pretend [inaudible] yeah, it's a, it's a word it's like, pretend Indian.

Jessica White Plume (00:22:17):

Yeah. It's like one to me, but you know,

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Warwick Schiller (00:22:19):

Really pretending isn't your word. Okay.

Jessica White Plume (00:22:22):

Okay. Um, and you know, it's kind of funny when they're doing powers, but they'll also try to do some really sacred ceremonies and that, you know, it's a dicey topic, but, um, more importantly, I think, um, I know a lot of people who have really, um, have really a lot of interest and compassion and connection with indigenous culture, but the thing is just to really, um, be respectful like you're doing, and I don't think you would ever be trying to pretend that you are Indiana or, you know, in any other indigenous group. So it's actually the way I see it as when I have that reaction, it's partly, you know, don't try to appropriate our stuff, but also like respect your own roots at the same time. Like I could be super excited about Aboriginal culture or, you know, Norwegian culture or whatever it might be.

Jessica White Plume (00:23:26):

Um, but you're not trying to be that you're just really showing respect and interest in it while maintaining your own. So me, I mean, I tend to be more of a lover than a fighter, but I would say I'm so excited work that you're interested in this culture and I'm happy, so happy to share and anything and let you know if something is appropriate or not, but also like, where are you from? And, you know, what are you everybody's indigenous to somewhere, you know, no matter what color you are, or you were at some point you were in some kind of clan or something tied to the land somewhere, you know? And so I feel like when somebody is just completely wrapped up in, there are people who are completely wrapped up in and really wanting to be native. It's almost a little sad, like, you know, thanks, but also find out where you're from.

Jessica White Plume (00:24:15):

You know, you probably have some, some cool cultural pieces too. And, um, that's kinda my view. And also generally, if you try to be respectful, um, you're not gonna offend as many people as you're probably worried about offending. So one thing that people do now, that's kind of a nice, um, it's something that everybody can do is find out who the indigenous people are that, um, are of the land that you're on. And so some people will actually open their talks or whatever they're doing. And just say, you know, I'm, so-and-so just want to acknowledge that this is the land of, you know, whatever tribe it is. And, um, we appreciate that. And then they carry on with what they're doing, you know?

Warwick Schiller (00:25:01):

Yeah. Notice they've been doing that in Australia quite a bit lately. Um, you know, you just mentioned about, everybody's got to try it from somewhere like you you're descended from some way that originally had a connection to the land, you know? And so I, my, my father's originally, his ancestors came from Germany, but I've looked up the family tree on dad's side of the family. And I thought I was Jim, and, but I'm like five eights, Irish, a quarter English and an eighth German. So I've, you know, and if you think about Irish at some point in time, they were, you know, back before religion and all that stuff that were pagans and they worshiped that

Jessica White Plume (00:25:50):

Nature. Yeah. And I feel like that's really cool too, to learn more about it. And I, I feel like those things are really, they are tied to the land. So I would imagine if you spent some time there and, you know,

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maybe learn songs or something, you know, the song and the drums, there's always music and music has always vibration. And, um, and it always connects to the land, somehow the ceremonies, if you go back so that you're, we feel like, you know, your DNA is really connected to somewhere and it's not like you can't make a home anywhere around the world, but your DNA resonates with land somewhere. And in animals, like somewhere like we, our bodies really thrive well on Buffalo, you know, like, and we feel like that's, there's kind of a, there's a beautiful spiritual cultural piece, but it's almost like you're, you, can't separate, you know, the land from the culture, from the language it's, it's all tied. And there's a lot of meaning there. I don't even pretend to understand it all, but I know it's there and I appreciate it and try to, you know, live in awareness of, of those things a little bit, you know, as much as I can.

Warwick Schiller (00:27:10):

Yeah. You know, I think the thing that attracts me to indigenous cultures and, and, uh, and, and that I'm using the term indigenous here as in probably like, like non Western cultures, because, and the reason it attracts I'm attracted to indigenous cultures is because you're not that far removed from your connection to the land. Whereas, you know, like I've got, you know, five eights Irish on dead. So I'm not sure what I mean on mom's side, but, you know, you can't go to Ireland and, you know, it's, it's all industrialized, it's all, you know, modern society sort of thing. And I'm sure if you looked around, you could find it. But I think that's what attracts me to, um, you know, indigenous cultures and practices and stuff like that, because it's not, we're not that far removed. They're not that far removed from, from the way they were for thousands of years, you know, whereas, whereas with, you know, say my Irish ancestry, it's, it's, um, you know, it's a little, it's a little more removed, so it's, that's a, so I don't think my interest in, in like indigenous culture is like appropriation or whatever.

Warwick Schiller (00:28:30):

It's, it's just getting back to the root of who we used to be. And, you know, I, and it seems like there's just so many similarities. If you, if you think about, you know, I've had, I don't know if you listened to the podcast with Rupert Isaacson, but he was with the, the koi San bushmen in the Kalahari. And, you know, he's the guy that wrote the horse boy and he, you know, went on four different healing journeys around the world with his son, Rowan, you know, they went to a Sharman in Mongolia, went to a shaman in, you know, in, I think it was in Arizona. They went to one in, in Botswana and they also went to an Aboriginal healer in Australia. And the things that they did, the, the practices that they had, the, the shamanic practices they had were all very, very similar, but these are cultures that have been around for thousands of years and have never had any contact with each other really. And so it's, you know, it's, it's just ancient wisdom,

Jessica White Plume (00:29:38):

Right? It's interesting you use that term that, because we're one of the projects that I'm working on is not horses is, uh, we have modern round homes. So the people here where I live now with Amanda and the Mendota says, and they lived in earth lodges and there were circular round homes, and we kind of have modernized the earth lodge and they're like zero, you know, off grid, zero energy homes. And anyway, it's really exciting, but that's what we always say that they're so effective because of that ancient wisdom. And, you know, it was like people did this thousands of years ago without, um, machinery. And, but it's, you know, it's so much ancient wisdom out there about plants and just how things, um, can feed each other and support each other. And it's, yeah. You know, there's those practices that were really trained to hang onto and not, not lose a lot of them have been lost sadly, but a lot of them are still here.

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Jessica White Plume (00:30:41):

And so it's quite an effort to keep them and, um, and you kind of, can't separate them from language. So there's a lot of language revitalization going on. Um, but for me also, the land is just, uh, you know, it's its own. And we're fortunate, like you said, to have the land, even though we think, you know, the reservation is a small piece, 10,000 acres is a, is a lot for say in Europe, you know, our a hundred thousand acres. And so we can't, we can go walk, I can go walk for hours, you know, and, you know, meditate or acquire walk with my horse or whatever I need to do. And that, um, that healing is still there. My connection to that is I think you would appreciate it before, like a comment, um, that we had shared when I ride, it takes at least about an hour or two for me to start to feel different. And I even noticed my visual field going out a little farther, and it's like, almost like just coming into a place of nature and coming out of your head and, and Everett, a lot of people are talking about that in different ways, but, um,

Warwick Schiller (00:31:56):

One of the questions I was going to ask you in our, you know, Facebook messenger chats, you had said, and I've got it written down here, I've got some notes to like, get through these things. And it says, when she rides out into the country, her vision changes, so does it become, become sharper? Does it become clearer? Is it less, um, is it less like focused vision and a more broad vision?

Jessica White Plume (00:32:23):

Yeah. You know, it's one of those things I just started to pay attention to more recently, but I'm sure it's been happening all along. And the vision is an indicator of something happening. I'm sure throughout all of me, some kind of a shift, but, um, it comes from, from literally being really things in my head, you know, thinking about things past, present, or past future, not really in the present to, it might get a little more present and be like, you know, looking at my horse or, you know, right around my horse. And then eventually it's, it's like, it just notice the horizon. It's almost like you can feel the horizon. Um, and so it's like a, just more so of a broadening that is probably, uh, um, you know, it's just generally shift out of that, that cerebral place that we spend so much time in and away from the noise and the clutter and the concrete and, um, all those things that take us away from our natural state.

Jessica White Plume (00:33:25):

You know, we are animals. I don't know if that's the term we want to use, but it's not like we're separate from the earth and the other creatures. And in our Lakota way, we say those are nations. So it's the Buffalo nation. It's the horse nation. It's the standing silent nation, it's like all the plants and animals. And you know we're the two legged nation. We're all different nations, you know, living together. That's something that kinda struck me when I was listening to your work or watching one of the videos, you know, coming to a point where you really get the horse, you see them, you're responsive. And what struck me is we have a practice that we use called being a good relative.

Jessica White Plume (00:34:16):

Our stories say that long ago we would all talk to each other and we have all these stories about, Buffalo came and they said this and two legged, said something back. And we would talk to each other and learn from each other. And either they spoke different or we communicated different, but we were able to communicate on the same level. And now when we say being a good relative, it might be like, you know, like picking up your trash. You're not just trying to keep your yard clean, you're being a good relative to the earth, or to other animals who might need those places. My cousin just did a thing, I was kind of

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proud of her. One of my sister cousins yeah. Had to her younger sister, there were like a family, an argument or something going on, but she said the younger one was going to town.

Jessica White Plume (00:35:17):

She said, you don't bring back some fruit for them, because even though we're fighting, you still, you have to be a good relative and, you know, take them some food because they were mourning. They were in mourning as well. And, um, so that's kind of a concept that we have, and it strikes me that when you were, you responsive to a horse saying, Hey, this is concerning to me. Um, and not that you have to follow every women the horse might have, but you're responsive to their concerns. You know, you're paying attention and, um, considerate of it and, you know, reflecting on it and kind of strikes me that, you know, you're, you're being a good relative to the horse nation Warwick. So I appreciate that.

Warwick Schiller (00:36:04):

Wow. Um, you know, in, in that chat you just had, right. Then you were talking about, you know, when you ride out and you you're out there for a while and you, your vision changes. It's funny, I've got a book that I've read. I've talked about it on the podcast, quite a bit called calling us home. And it is basically about how to develop some shamanic practices and, you know, one of the, and it's all about going, you know, that he gives you a detailed description of what to do, but it's all about going out in nature. And, you know, he has, you go and sit in nature and observe night, just so cerebrally, but then you go out and you sit there and you listen to the sounds, but then you go out and you sit in nature and you feel with your body and you were talking about feeling the horizon.

Warwick Schiller (00:37:01):

And, um, you know, in that book, neither Wolf nor dog, the author spends a lot of time with this, um, native elder. And they, a lot of times they'll just drive out into, I forget what part of the country that we're in, but it was somewhere in your neck of the woods. Um, and they would drive out and they just stop in the car and just get out and sit there. And they do it a lot. And the, uh, the native elders said, so what are you, what are you doing? We're sitting out here in east lake. Oh, well, I think about things. And I, you know, he's kind of in his head about stuff. And then the, the, the night of go, I, the night of elder was saying that, uh, you know, it's more about feeling stuff, but there's one, one time they were sitting out there and he says, so what do you see the Nightingale?

Warwick Schiller (00:37:48):

This is, what do you see? And he goes, let's see, um, you know, there's a patch of grass every day. It gets she a bit. What do you see at the Pecha grass seems like just a bit greener than everywhere else. And he's like, well, what do you see? And then he's like, well, well, there's some, I think there's some Prairie dogs there. And then the elder goes on to say that those, you know, those Prairie dogs are our friends, because the reason that grass is greener, there is because there's a Prairie dog town so that the ground's full of holes. And when it rains, the water goes in those holes and the ground soaks up the rain more. And then that grass grows green. And that brings the animals that we can hunt. And so the Prairie dogs are our brothers. Like they help us, you know, it's just the whole, it's just the whole connection thing. I mean, that's, that's, I think that's my whole interest in all types of indigenous stuff is, is that, but I gotta not just a moment, quite a moment here. I recently went to, um, I flew down to LA for the day to have a energy healing session with, uh, a native Sharman. And what happened down there did more for me than anything I've ever done. And it got me to feel in talking to you here, my body's just going off

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Jessica White Plume (00:40:07):

Like waves and waves of stuff. Congratulations. You've been working on that. I know it's been a thing for, you know, it's been a thing for you for awhile.

Warwick Schiller (00:40:31):

Yeah. And, uh, uh, that, that right there has been coming the whole time. Me talking to you that, you know, there's certain things you've been talking about. And as you, as you say them, my whole body's been been buzzing. Oh, I'm almost having a bit of an out of body experience right here. Um, the, the guy I went and saw, you know, I don't know what he is. Uh, I think he's, I think he said, he's Lakota. I bet he, he has a yert, went in the, and sat down in front of him and he, um, it's like, he's psychic. I just sat down and he goes, okay, so you have problems with this and you have problems with this. And, oh, you you're very new work with animals and people in a, in a healing capacity.

Warwick Schiller (00:41:49):

Right. He just told me so much stuff that there's no, there's no way he could know that stuff about me, but we probably spent an hour there, him telling me different things and just reading my, you know, like, here's a, here's a, you know, he talked about like Chinese stuff too, because you talked about shakras and, and, you know, he said, this shock was stuck in, you know, right off the bat. He goes, zoom you a very sensitive, and you've shut that down. That's been shut down from a very early age. And, you know, he was just so spot on with everything he said. And, uh, he S he said, did you have any birth trauma? And he's the second person that asked me that recently a beginner, the other person was. And so I had called mom and I said, did you have a trouble, any trouble with, uh, with my birth? And she goes, no, not really. I said, so there's nothing odd about it. And she said, no, not really. Except he came out, face down instead of face up. And I told that to this guy. And he, and he said to me, even then you were hiding from the world.

Warwick Schiller (00:43:28):

No, there's, there's something that was, he said to me, he said that you've, you'll you'll. He said, my throat shocker. Is it like, you're you, you've got a lot to say that you've never been allowed to say it. And he said, you came out that way, that you, uh, you know, so, you know, you said you came out hiding from the world, basically. So if you guys at home, while I was talking right there, uh, Jessica was holding her hands up, like palms towards me. What were you, what were you doing there?

Jessica White Plume (00:44:32):

Um, so I was praying for you. Um, I mean, uh, always been a pretty, like I said, we practiced our culture a lot. I mean, prayer is a big part of everything we do, but, um, later in life, when you pay attention to things in the moment, more kind of just try to make it a habit. If I see someone having a moment or especially struggling with word, you know, they're having a moment, but they're also trying to talk about it's always hard and I'm just kind of praying for you. And so, and also, I'm sure you've heard of energy work and light, and I think those things are also similar. I guess they've all just somehow come together as a, as a practice for him. He just kind of sending good, um, healing and, um, just a little prayer of helping you with your, your words and working through what, you know, it's a powerful moment. It's a really, really powerful moment for you. And so I'm really glad you're on that. It's probably going to take some time to process everything, you know, your experience with that healer and, um, gosh, what a journey, huh? Big, big step in your journey.

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Warwick Schiller (00:45:58):

You know, I think you helped me through that because there was a point in time. There were part of me was like, you can't go there. You're on the podcast. I think this was the part that you helped me with, but there's a part of me that said, just let it go. Just, just relax. Just let it come.

Jessica White Plume (00:46:31):

Yeah. Well, I feel very honored that you did. And like I said, happy for you. And, um, you know, a big part of what, I mean, I wouldn't even say work, but I guess the movement, the programs, the horse stuff, even the therapy stuff. I have a, I have a degree. I have a doctorate in psychology as well. And in both worlds like the horse training world and the therapy world, very few people talk about spirit and prayer, even though like studies show studies show that like 90% of people believe in something, some kind of a God or something, you know, and, um, for whatever the different histories and institutions have been, we don't bring that into our daily practice. It's like a separate little piece we might or might not do privately, but we don't bring it into her. A lot of people don't bring it into their life.

Jessica White Plume (00:47:30):

And so, um, you know, something I try to work on, I don't know if that relates to, to your story, but, but from what I've heard, you've been on this journey a lot. You've been, you know, reaching out in so many ways and, and really just open to learning and humble. You know, one of our greatest, um, values as indigenous people is to be, is to be humble, not to be a great chief or a great anything, you know, the greatest honor in Lakota ways, cheer we Tasha, which is to be a common man. And, um, that's more of what people are striving for versus if somebody approaches you and says, um, you know, why I'm such and such. And I am a chief of something that might be a red flag because really, um, somebody else would likely tell you about them, if that was the case.

Jessica White Plume (00:48:22):

And so that might be something that I really appreciate you as well, or another reason why I appreciate you, because you're willing to say like, Hey, this was new to me. You know, I'm, I've done quite a bit and I've done really well, but I'm humble enough to say, wow, I can learn from this other field and this other person around the world. And sometimes like, I have a moment where I'm, you know, kind of lost and, um, that's where, you know, we all keep growing and learning and, um, that's real, you know, you're being, you're very real. And that moment was very real. So I appreciate it. And I think I've mentioned in a comment before that it helps everybody else too, to be a little more real as well. Your listeners maybe.

Warwick Schiller (00:49:15):

Yeah, that was freaking real. My body's gone off right now. So I'm going to, I might as well go full disclosure here cause I've disclosed it before. So I've talked about, um, whatever is you're doing and keep doing it. It feels good. So Jessica is going to hands up and her eyes closed. Cause I can see her, you know, we don't record the video of this, but we record the audio. Um, I've talked before about how I, one of the after a year or so of therapy and not getting anywhere. And I, I, um, read in a Tim Ferriss book, tribe of mentors, not travel. Was it travel mentors? I think it's travel mentors. No, it wasn't travel mentors. What was it called? Yeah, maybe it was a Tim Ferriss book about a, uh, a doctor here in Silicon valley. Not far from us that will, he will spin stem cells off.

Warwick Schiller (00:50:20):

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You pull fat out of your spins stem cells off and inject them in your vagus nerve and give you a complete emotional reset. And I'm like, you mean I don't have to go to therapy every week. And so I called that guy up and made an appointment with him. But in our conversation he said, oh, we're not going to, that's called a stellate ganglion block, but we're not going to do that. We're going to do something different to you. And I'm like, okay. So I go and read his office and he hooked me up to an Ivy of something called NAD. And NAD is a co-factor. I don't even know what a co-factor is, but you're born with a certain amount of this stuff. And as you age it depleted, and if you drank it depletes and I used to drink three beers a day for 20, 30 years, uh, more at times, and from what I've read since then, uh, this NAD helps with your, with your get.

Warwick Schiller (00:51:11):

And so you get the whole brain, heart gut thing and all that stuff was disconnected. So it's supposed to help with that. But then he hooks me up to an Ivy of ketamine. So it gives me a psychedelic trip on ketamine. And this was my first ever experience it's with psychedelics. Okay. And this is a doctor approved psychedelic trip. And it, you know, you supposed to go offline for eight hours and then paid hours later, your emotions is supposed to kick in, you know, your, your, your emotions are supposed to kick back into gear. Nothing happened for about 24 hours. And, but about 24 hours later, I was sitting in an airport sitting in San Jose airport. I had to go to, to Washington state the next day to do a, um, Aussie expo. And I was sitting in San Jose airport and all of a sudden, boom, there's this thing in my chest.

Warwick Schiller (00:51:59):

And it moved down around in my torso, in my solar plexus and moved around. It's like I had an alien in me and know like, what the hell is this thing turns out. Yeah, that's, I'd never had any bodily sensations in my solar plexus. I've had heartbreak and being in love in my heart. And I've had fear and dread and like in my belly button, like below that, and I get sort of thing, but it never had anything in the middle. And that was the first thing that got things in the middle, moving around. And it didn't last for that long, you know, maybe lasted it kept the weeks. Not even that, I don't think, but at least the, it gave me an idea of what was possible that you could have feelings in those places. And about four months later, I went to Florida and did a three-day Iowasca ceremony.

Warwick Schiller (00:52:45):

And the reason I got to do the Iowasca is because it is legal because you join this church. So it's, uh, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's legal. So the thing with the doctor was legal and then this thing was, um, legal because you join their church of mother Iowasca, it becomes a religious sacrament. So the government allows you to do it. And that I had a bit of a heart opening experience there, at least what I thought was one. And so that was quite helpful, but it went away after a while, not very long after. And then he, uh, January, he last year by micro-dosing some mushrooms for about days and that I had some really heartfelt sensations, uh, during that time. And so it's microdosing mushrooms. So you're not really, you don't have any psychedelic effects that you know of the world looks the same, but we've got a cat and she's not a friendly catching on unfriendly cat.

Warwick Schiller (00:53:43):

She's just a cat. Um, every night for the 10 days as microdosing the mushrooms, she would come up and sit in my lap on the couch and like suck up to my body. And if I got up to get a drink or whatever, I'd put her on the couch. And when I got back to on the couch, she'd get back on again. She's never done that before. Never done since. Um, and the reason I'm telling you that, oh, this stuff is because when I went

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to this, uh, native American shaman, he did a, uh, an energy healing ceremony ceremony with me, took me outside and had me stand facing the sun with my eyes closed and my palms facing the sun and did all sorts of, um, stuff during that and partway through it. I, um, I collapsed and threw up, and this was just because of the, the, uh, whatever he was doing with me. And, uh, but then, and this is the big kicker here. Then we went inside, back inside his yurts and he bought a lady in, because you've got to have some feminine energy for this next part, but I, um, smoked the Buffalo or the Bufo toad. I don't know if you know anything about that, but so the poison of the back of a Bufo turd, they dry it and it, and it's basic it's, um, MEO five DMT, I think, is what it is. So I think it's the world's most powerful hallucinogen.

Warwick Schiller (00:55:32):

Uh, and so he, I smoked that and it was the craziest thing, because I talk about these, these ego death things. And, you know, some people have that NY Wesco, I didn't have that, you know, the ego death to where your soul and your body is separate and you you're actually without a body and you experience not necessarily an antibody experienced, but you don't have a body. And I didn't have that NIO Wesco, but I had it with the, with the blue photo thing. And it was just basically, this might sound wacky to some people, but I was pure energy. You spirit. And it really hasn't gone away. It's been lessened at times. I mean, it's been, what day is it today? It's Monday. It's been about 10 days now. I guess I did that on a Thursday. Um, and it really hasn't gone away. My body's been buzzing since, but there's been something about, it's no lose. What's going on now started with what you were talking about before. Just listening to you, talking about what you were talking about. I'm trembling all over right now. Wow.

Jessica White Plume (00:57:58):

Wow. Yeah, I'm really, I'm really happy for you that you're finding these people, you know, at the time that they're meant to come to you. And it's been a long time that you've been holding these emotions. So it's gonna be a lot, it's going to be a lot. And I, I wouldn't even pretend to have any comment on that, that journey of yours, just that I'm, I'm happy for you. And it does. I do believe it goes all the way back. I mean, you know, you're a spirit, the way we believe is that you were a spirit already, and then you chose, you know, you were amongst the star people, the star nation, and you chose to come down where you did and when you did. And so when you talk about birth, that's really special because of those things. But also I sought out a, um, a midwife, you know, to do home birth, um, for a lot of reasons, just as far as the medical practices that I didn't love so much.

Jessica White Plume (00:59:04):

And, um, and because to us, it's a spiritual experience, you know, you're like bringing a spirit into the world and I'm kind of dampens it when you've got monitors and strangers all up on your body. And not that, you know, a lot of births can be beautiful wherever they are. Of course they are, you know, it's sacred no matter where you are, but, um, but we felt like finding a midwife and we did. And with our first birth, there was some kind of complication. And we, well, I shouldn't say some kind of complication actually, since we're talking about it, the first one I thought, okay, I got this great midwife. She came and she did our prenatals. Um, she was amazing. It was so, um, supportive and just really happy with all the journey, but come time for birth. I had seen all the movies and I was like, you know, I'm tough.

Jessica White Plume (00:59:58):

I'm the cowgirl, I'm strong. I can endure pain, you know? Right. And so I had this toughness mentality about it, but I was, I was also happy, you know, but by and large, I was going to tough out these contractions and stuff and in between then, uh, so she stayed with us, but we ended up having to go

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into the hospital for the birth. I was still able to have, you know, a natural birth, but she was there the whole time. And she was a very powerful person, you know, she's Christian, but very prayerful, genuine person. And so, you know, her and my husband were there the whole time and it was really special. But between that one and the second birth, I had read a lot more about, you know, there's this midwife history and books. And, um, they really talk about visualization and, and letting go, you know, not being tough, but that's the opposite of what you need to do.

Jessica White Plume (01:00:56):

You need to be open, you need to be more open than you've ever been until I had a baby out. Right. And so I had to let go of the idea of being tough and, um, of course being open and, you know, had a little mantras about where we're happy, you know, we're welcoming, you, we're happy that he's coming, because if you think of a contraction, that's baby trying to come out, you know, and you're like, oh no, there's another contraction. Or that's a message. They feel that. And so, um, I had is like, you know, we're happy you're coming. And, um, childbirth is doable, like, cause you know, you're not going to die. So I'd mantra mantras. And I had kind of visualizations and, and a lot of prayer and my husband is a very prayerful person as well. Um, so you know, all of that combined with our second birth, it was really, really beautiful. And I, I hope more people are able to have that kind of birth. It was really beautiful. Like I'm not kidding. It was great. And, um, it's interesting. You should mention that about your birth process. Cause just because we can't remember, it doesn't mean things aren't happening, you know? Um, um,

Warwick Schiller (01:02:07):

Yeah, well that was the second person recently. I forget who the other one was, but someone else said, I feel like there was some, some birth trauma on, I can't remember who the hell it was, but, um, but that whole letting go thing, um, that's the thing with the, when I did the, the, uh, Bufo toad stuff, like, right. Like it hits you like boom, within 15 seconds you are fully in and only lasts about half an hour. Um, but right at the start, there was, there was a split second of when, you know, you feel like your body's going away, that there's, that there was that split second of bracing up like, no. And then I just was like, I was like, just, I wasn't even like words in my head, like just let go. But it was like, but that's basically what it was.

Warwick Schiller (01:03:08):

I was like, let go. And since I did that, I started re looking on online, like, you know, on YouTube about, cause I didn't know much about this before I went there. Um, and I find out that Mike Tyson, if anybody's ever seen Mike Tyson these days and he's like this half in the light and being, it was the Bufo toads smoking that, that did it to him. There's a, you know, he does, but he does an interview with Joe Rogan and, and he's talking about how, but he fought it because he's a fighter, you know? Um, he, he fought it. He, and, and it's interesting. My Tyson, like, you know, he was the most fearsome man on the planet sort of thing, but listen to some of his interviews and just stuff. He's just a scared little boy.

Warwick Schiller (01:04:03):

And yeah, he said, he, he really fought it, but when he let go, I was like, oh God, he let go of all the, the he'd been holding onto for forever. And, um, you know, I didn't know what happened with, I don't know what ha yeah, I don't know what happened with me, um, because it wasn't like, I, I, I don't remember. I remember the start where I just turned into pure energy. I was just, just vibration this and such a

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massive vibration. It's not like tiny vibration does it was full on, but then I don't remember anything after that until I woke up out of it. But when I woke up out of it, I had dried tea is all over my face.

Warwick Schiller (01:04:54):

So I think there's a lot of stuff that I'd, I'd held onto, um, uh, that I let go of. And it was, it was coming out of that. It was so we'd like they play this music while you're, while you're under the influence of it. And I mean, a year, so a year, it has got a round perspex dome in the middle of it. And so, and I'm laying on the floor and the exact center of this. And so when I start to come to there's, this music playing and I can smell, and there was a lot of tobacco in the, in the, um, ceremony and, you know, I w I can smell the tobacco. And then I, my eyes kind of flutter open. I'm looking up through this tobacco smoke at the sun in the killer perspex dome. And the, the, the chairman, the healer guy has got it.

Warwick Schiller (01:05:45):

I don't know, it's an Eagle's wing or an owl's when you're not sure, but all the feathers are still attached and he's kind of wafting that smoke over me, you know, and in some movies they've got it. Right. Cause I'm like, I've seen, this was like watching nine 11 happened in real life when the plane crashed in the building, it's like, I've seen this movie before them and their special effects are so good at work. Isn't yeah. And it was horrifying, but on the other hand, it's like, yeah, I've seen that before, but it was coming too from this, this journey. Um, there's it was just like, in some movies you've seen my eyes kind of open up and there's smoke and it's looking at the sun through the smoke. And the, I don't know, like I said, I don't was, uh, an Eagle wing or if it was a, I don't think it would be an, a rave and I don't think it was black.

Warwick Schiller (01:06:36):

It might've been an owl can't, I'm not sure, but just the waving of that. And then I looked this guy in the eyes and he just smiles at me. And then I clinic close my eyes and have a bit of a, and at the time my body was buzzing to where I could feel like there was waves of energy, but I could feel there was no longer I was back in my body, but my body could feel everything in the room it was. And then as I came to that lessened more, and as I became more conscious and got back in my head more, that basically kind of went away and, you know, driving away from there. Cause you're 20 minutes after the sermon, you can drive off. It's not, it doesn't link very long, but driving away from there, I was, I was kind of half thinking, well, that was amazing, but I wonder how long it's going to stick around like kind of like the Iowasca sort of thing.

Warwick Schiller (01:07:33):

And it's, it's actually, you know, as I've meditated each day and stuff it's, it's gotten, it's not powerful as it was when I was coming out of the ceremony, but I mean, it's, the energy is, is stronger and stronger each day. You know, I think it was the right thing at the right time. We had just had, I don't know if you've listened to the podcast with Carrie lake, but we just had a here at our place for six days. She did a three and a half day retreat with eight people, plus Robin and I, and then she took the day off and then she was, she did two days privately with Robin and I on Tuesday, Wednesday. And then when she got done Wednesday, I drove to the airport and flew to LA and did that thing the next day. So I think I was, I think I was really primed for it as well.

Warwick Schiller (01:08:24):

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Cause Carrie was really about getting, getting into your body and feeling the world, not seeing, not thinking about the world, but that's feeling the world and an intuition and, you know, asking, asking spirit for guidance and then feeling the answer with your body and, you know, I didn't feel like, um, yeah, I've got it. It's all good after Carrie was here, but I think doing that for five or six days and then doing the, the healing with the Sharman and then the, then the, the Bufo ceremony. Um, yeah, I think it was right place, right time. And then, then talking to you definitely right place, right time, like this, something about the things you've been sharing that have just been hitting. It's funny, it's, I've always thought that, you know, you would, when you get this, you would feel it just in your torso, but like I can, my whole body is like a tuning fork right now. It's crazy.

Jessica White Plume (01:09:26):

Hopefully you have time to take some time after the podcasts and, you know, have some quiet time and, and, uh, I dunno, have some time with what's happening and, uh, be in that space as they say these days and see what you want to take with you. And I think I will definitely have to do that. Yeah. Because it's so easy to just step away from those pivotal moments that we have and then jump back into the modern world and, you know, be like, oh, that was a neat thing for that moment. But you know, like, and I believe that long time ago they live more so like that on a regular, everyday functional basis and a little, maybe less so in the, in the brain than we are now.

Warwick Schiller (01:10:18):

Oh, oh yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm reading a book now called, um, no, it'll come to me here in a second, but in that book, they talk about it at a west African tribe. And I think they called the Anglo E-way, but they don't think that we have five senses. They think we have nine senses. And one of the senses is, um, your balance balance is a sense and it's, and it's your connection to the direct center of the earth, like really falls straight down toward gravity, pulls you towards the direct center

Jessica White Plume (01:10:56):

Of the universe. Isn't this all with that. Right.

Warwick Schiller (01:11:00):

And if I thought about that, but, but they have a word that's called Sessa salami [inaudible] and it literally translates into English to feel, feel with the flesh inside. And like, when you go riding out, cross the Plains there and you get to where you can feel the horizon, that's what you're doing. And, you know, I've been stuck in my head for so long, you know, you kind of lose that, but now it's, this whatever's going on right now is, is, uh, it's very welcome. I

Jessica White Plume (01:11:40):

Like to imagine, like to be the optimist then that, um, it's not something that just, we can reminisce that, you know, people did do that long ago, but that even, you know, Western modern world whatnot, um, are eventually moving more in that direction. Like COVID had us all do a reset of how we spend our time. Right. And, um, and you see big institutes, like in my, when I was in graduate school, we studied, um, workplace wellness and the big, the big ones like Johnson and Johnson or whatnot, you know, they have flexible schedules and they have like walls and, you know, they're just an and all the different sectors, you know, it's green energy, there's all these different sectors that I, I like to think that the lines are getting blurred. You know, I was going to refer to English writing when I was a kid and more Western, but it's like, the lines are all getting blurred because I think we're all moving in the direction of

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just, you know, living a little bit more peacefully, um, kind of more holistically coming back into tune with what's important, you know, money is not made anybody really happy yet, you know, so, you know, I like to believe that shift is happening everywhere, you know, more or less in different timelines.

Jessica White Plume (01:13:04):

But, um, I like to believe we can all get back to a little more of that, um, experience that you're having and reconnection really with in theory, we could all have that, um, you know, and be able to function on that level of that powerful way that you've had, because you've dedicated, you know, you've put time into, like you said, finding the people and, um, making it a priority.

Warwick Schiller (01:13:32):

So I've been lucky with the people that found me, like, I didn't contact you remember?

Jessica White Plume (01:13:37):

Right. Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (01:13:39):

You contacted you,

Jessica White Plume (01:13:41):

But you were doing this stuff and, and, um, putting out these new messages that, that most quote unquote horse trainers don't so, uh, you did invite me,

Warwick Schiller (01:13:54):

But yeah. So you just mentioned, you know, when you were doing your doctorate, um, you know, you have a PhD in psychology, is that right?

Jessica White Plume (01:14:06):

Yup. I have a PhD in clinical psychology and a master's in public health.

Warwick Schiller (01:14:11):

Wow. And so I would imagine there's not too many people that grew up on the reservation that have a PhD in anything.

Jessica White Plume (01:14:23):

Yeah. Well, the education, um, attainment numbers, are they really, they're getting better. We have a lot of great tribal colleges and universities now, but, but in general, yeah, the graduation rates are, are less and there are not that many of us in the, and you know, at the doctoral level, in the, in these different fields. So, um, but you know, my family was very excited. I have family that just insist on seeing Dr. Jess every time they see me,

Warwick Schiller (01:14:52):

So they should. Um, and so what, what led you to that? You know, this is the journey on podcast. What was, what, how do you a journey led you in that direction?

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Jessica White Plume (01:15:03):

Uh, well part, yeah, or kind of all the deep, the Woolworths eight, but, um, because, uh, I've kind of asked that same question, like why me, you know, there are so many friends and relatives that are, that are brilliant and gifted and, you know, genius and you know, why am I here making it kind of, you know, successful ish. And, um, so, and, and there a lot of answers, I did have some really strong influential people that were super supportive, but I also did have some, some tough times, you know, I wasn't really living at home even when I graduated high school. And, you know, I missed like 60 days of my senior year. Um, like they were sending home letters saying they think I might not graduate, but, um, high school. But, um, so one thing that later came to me that I think you'll appreciate is I used to also sleep outside a lot when I was a kid.

Jessica White Plume (01:16:01):

And, uh, I just really liked it at the time. You know, I just, I just really liked it. And again, I had that a lot of autonomy, I guess, in that way, hands-off parenting will say, so I was just like, oh, take my blanket. I'm taking the dog. We're going to sleep outside. You know, we have this old deck, just a wooden deck thing on top of a big hill behind the house. So, um, and there were pain trees there and I had a dog and I would just, I just really liked sleeping outside. And, um, so most of the summer I would do that. And, um, so later on reflecting on things and learning more, you know, part of it was coming away from things that didn't feel comfortable. Uh, and so that was helpful, but it also later believing, you know, come to believe that, um, the power is the energy, the spirits.

Jessica White Plume (01:16:57):

What have you, they're always kind of working on you even when you were doing or they're working on you. So we believe in, you know, this, the spirit world is the star world, the star nation. No, I felt like they were teaching me, you know, I was under the stars and, um, they were helping me, they were teaching me things about, you know, life or living or, or something deep that I probably could never articulate. And, and same with the trees, you know, I'd listened to the pine trees and went through the Plains and we just had another teacher here recently, uh, an indigenous woman from Canada. And she talked about how the trees, no youth through the ground, through your feet, touching the ground. And, um, and they recognize you with their leave, something like that. So, you know, the trees were teaching me things too, even though I didn't know what I needed, but I just kind of followed the feel and, and I really do believe they were helping me. There's also science now about like the tree mitochondria.

Warwick Schiller (01:18:00):

Okay. Have you ever read the secret life of trees?

Jessica White Plume (01:18:04):

Yes, I have. Oh, wait, I might've been mixing it up with secret life of bees. I also do honeybees.

Warwick Schiller (01:18:10):

Oh, okay. Well, yeah, those are fascinating too, but I think it's called the secret life of trees, but it's about how the, the trees talk to each other. And I actually witnessed that in, in Africa that I was with a, uh, a lady that she'd been a safari guide in Africa for 17 years. And we were watching these giraffe and they walked up to these Acacia trees, you know, the flat top trees, like seeing the lion king, you know, and she said, so if you watch these giraffe, they're only going to eat that tree for not, you know, she told me

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a certain amount of time before they move on. And I said, why are the other giraffes like ecologists? Like they don't chew too much off one tree. She goes, no, no, the trees consents they're being eaten. And they secrete, uh, uh, nasty tasting 10 and they ended the leaves so that they don't keep eating them like really?

Warwick Schiller (01:18:59):

And she says, yes, but if you watch, when they leave that tree, they will walk past two other trees before they start grazing again. And I said, why is that? She said, because the trees can talk to each other and they can tell the other one that's drafts. He reading me. So the other ones I've already secreted that nasty tasting 10. And then the giraffes know from, from experience that I've got to skip a couple of trees because the next two tastes like crap as well. And then they started and was sitting there watching it, and then pretty soon the drafts leave those, that tree walk past two more trees and then start grazing. So, yeah. Sorry, carry on. But I just wondered. Yeah, that's, that's the stuff that fascinates me.

Jessica White Plume (01:19:39):

It was really a big aha moment for me, definitely when I realized that they were helping me and teaching me all the time, I was just laying there sleeping, you know, um, I also had, you know, a really strong family and, um, I had, uh, my German mother would really, was really big on reading. So even though I have very few memories, I remember reading for short, her reading to me a lot, of course, that helped as far as college though, I set out to do like, I'm going to be a doctor. I kind of just followed what was interesting. And I was pretty much on my own then. So I didn't have someone pushing me in any particular way. I just really enjoyed learning. I enjoyed school and psychology people tend to think of, um, psychopathology. So like, you know, um, depression or anxiety or someone getting treated, laying on a couch, you know, whatever it might be.

Jessica White Plume (01:20:35):

But psychology is really the study of behavior, all behavior. So healthy behavior, unhealthy behavior, humans, animals, it's all just like, why do we do what we do? You know? And I was kind of on that quest of, you know, why do we do what we do and why am I doing what I'm doing? And it was very interesting. And I just kind of, like you said, kept bumping into people that were really, um, really amazing, like connections with certain people that were inspiring. And they would kind of help me go on in different places and opportunities. So I kind of just followed feel and good people and connections and opportunities that came my way. And, um, and I also figured he, if I get a high enough degree, I can kind of do what I want and someone will pay me for it. Um, but it, wasn't never like intention of this is a particular job that I want.

Jessica White Plume (01:21:31):

And in fact, I really veered away from that. And, um, a few people have, have a similar story probably yourself to that. Um, because when you get that level of academia, it's a really, it's strong institution, like kind of a brainwash him. And I loved it, but you're also like, um, we go on this internship at the end of it. So the doctoral program had like four years of classes and practicum, and then you have a full year of internship. And then, um, you know, in that degree, it's a scientist practitioner. So you could either go into a clinical practice or you can be, you know, a professor in your field and publish, publish, publish, publish repairs. Um, and so I was, I went to a pretty prestigious internship in Florida, Gainesville, Florida, where the Gators come from Gatorade comes from, I learned. And, um, but it was so intense. It was really stressful, but really prestigious, you know, what it was kind of like, you have to prove your self as

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an intern and half die to be good enough to progress or something. You know, this institution isn't very healthy as far as wellbeing of the,

Warwick Schiller (01:22:50):

I was just going to say that this is in the psychology world, isn't it? It's like, that's everything they say these days not to do is, is it's gotta have, you know, you gotta have some self care and working yourself to death is not anybody.

Jessica White Plume (01:23:05):

Right. And I love if anybody by chance somehow connects with any of my teachers or they were amazing. I mean, I got to two amazing things and they were, they were great. They were great at what they did. And I appreciate all the experience, but at the same time, we were just so stressed and so overwhelmed. Like there was, I think, 12 of us and like half of us could be diagnosed as depressed seriously. So it was, um, it was a moment. And then I, but coming out of that setting, you get all these job offers. And it was definitely a moment where I then got these, you know, higher level job offers. And I was like, no, um, no, I really don't even want to career this. You know, I didn't, this is not what, how I want to spend my life. Even though again, I was around great people, good money.

Jessica White Plume (01:23:56):

Um, but my advisor in North Dakota, I had my doctorate from the university of North Dakota and my advisor was still there of course. And, um, she was working at the medical school and in grand forks. And I had said, I really, I kind of want to just come back to North Dakota. Can I do a postdoc there at the medical school? And she welcomed me back. She was a little bit like, you know, it was almost like a disappointing decision. Cause I have all these big, you know, doors opening for me and here I'm going back to North Dakota, but she did welcome me. And so I did a post-doc there, I was in back in grand forks. And, um, but up to this point, mind you up to this point, my academic school work life was completely separate. Like I was really good at school stuff and I could do, you know, walk and move in those circles.

Jessica White Plume (01:24:51):

You know, I can pass as white. So I didn't really have too much of the racism stuff hindering me either, unless I was talking on the phone and I told somebody my name, then it comes up. But anyway, that's another story, but, um, I was really good at school stuff. You know, the language, everything. And then separately, my home life, I had the horses, I had our ceremony as a header. You know, my family was all very separate. And um, so I kind of would take off this hat and put on my boots, so to speak. But in my, during the post-doc, the grant funds were running a little low and my advisor there said, well, let's have a little retreat, you know, to regroup ourselves. So we had a little, just a little day long retreat with our little department and, um, she's really awesome.

Jessica White Plume (01:25:43):

And so she, she really pushed us and said, what do we need to do in North Dakota? What does North Dakota need? And especially for native communities, because she was one who, you know, by her integrity and her reasoning, she said, if the people are showing the highest health disparities in our state happened to be native Americans. And that's where we need to really focus a lot of our work and try to make a better for them. You know, it's not about race, it's about serving your community. This is where the help is needed. That's where we're going to go. And what do we really believe will make a difference

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there? You know, not in terms of money or theory or whatever. No, she really kind of pushed us. And then I have this little Oprah moment of what came back to me was that, um, when I was young, growing up on horse, running around the Hills, like a little wild child on horses all the time, um, cause we were in the country.

Jessica White Plume (01:26:41):

So we were really lucky to be out in the country. We had our land, but there was a lot of kids in the, the housing we would call. So the government made these housing agencies and kind of put most of the natives there, but some stuck out in the Hills, like my, my family, and I'm going to refuse to go to the agency, but there is a lot of, um, you know, most of the kids are still in these housing, but they would walk like three miles, five miles to my house, my dad's place walk, you know, along the highway to go ride. And, um, and so we would all be riding out there and clearly remember us all running around, you know, bare back and just like happy and gifted, you know, skilled, um, enjoying life and, um, beautiful, no none. And those labels about high-risk kids, you know, and poverty and whatever.

Jessica White Plume (01:27:44):

It just didn't exist in that time when we were with the horses, you know, we didn't have drugs, we didn't have risks. We were just beautiful, free, happy, and healthy. Right. So that was my, my moment was that that is health. You know, that is psychology. It is mental health, it is physical health. It is, um, you know, even social connection. It is all of those things. And so, um, that was like, wow, you know, this I'm, I'm studying health. And I had felt like this was all just my own private little world, but, and meanwhile, the health field is struggling on how to help native communities. And so it all kind of came together that even though the health fields don't have the language for it, um, that this is our way of health and wellness. And, um, it doesn't have to be the horses, you know, it's also gardening.

Jessica White Plume (01:28:43):

It's also, you know, the drums, but my piece was with the horses that, you know, these things yeah. We need to come together. And so I started getting training and horse therapy and started trying to write, you know, working with communities, writing grants for, um, you know, native kids, um, who were like on probation, doing horsepower, basically doing horses for wellness and health. And, um, it was huge. It was this amazing moment because I really felt like, wow, I finally got what I'm supposed to meet is what I'm supposed to be doing MTM years later, you know, it was just a beautiful moment and it was scary. Um, cause I kind of had to step forward almost kind of like in a, in a leadership position. And I, I had a real moment of, I was talking, I had scheduled to be talking with the great Plains tribal chairman's health board, which is a gathering of all the tribal chair persons, um, and the great Plains.

Jessica White Plume (01:29:43):

And so that was just intimidating and I was yelling and I was, you know, again taught to be humble. And it was like, oh man, I don't know if I can do this. And, um, couple of things happen. So my, one of my uncles who was one of the chairman had said, you know, when you have something like that, so strong and passionate in you, um, it's not yours, you know, you're coming from the creator and you're meant to share it. Like you're not helping anybody by, by trying to play small. Like you're meant to share that. And, um, that really just hit me at that moment, you know, kind of when I needed to hear and what I needed to hear that, um, was a service to share, you know, what, what you've been given. And then also again, I went into the Hills and I had the moment with, um, I was walking, I like to walk in the Hills and I was just like, man, can't even remember exactly what I was asking or putting out, but it was something

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to the effect of, can I do this? And you know, it seems like a lot and I really got this powerful message back, you know, that we're all with you. Like, uh, again, all the nations, the plants, the horses were grazing over there. You know, you're not even doing this alone is the feel that came right back to me. You know, we're all, we're all with you doing this, you know? So it was, it was really beautiful time or powerful time. And then I met my husband and he was doing a horse therapy program out here.

Warwick Schiller (01:31:22):

He was already doing that. Oh, that's cool. Yeah.

Jessica White Plume (01:31:25):

We were out in really similar, separate, similar journeys. And then that's when we came together. And so we kind of do the work together now, but, um, but that's how we came together. Yeah. He was doing a program out here and some of the people I was working with when I to observe what he was doing here and here, and that's how we met. And now here we are with a bunch of horses and kids and chickens. And

Warwick Schiller (01:31:51):

So what's, what's the program as it stands now, what, what exactly are you guys doing?

Jessica White Plume (01:31:57):

So, um, gosh, as far as port birth, whole, there were, there's a lot happening here. We are. I don't even know if I could say it's there's the program because Fort Berthold, we first, um, worked, it was a really smaller program, but was a tribal court, the 77 program, but as a tribal employment. So we were able to do kind of like the, um, EAGALA type, equine-assisted learning with people, for employees training and people in, um, substance use programs and kids who were in, in the jail and the juvenile justice system. So it was a pretty small program, but people really were excited about it. And then it just to native people that just makes, as soon as you talk about that, it makes perfect sense. It's like, of course, of course we need to reconnect our kids with horses and you don't even really have to justify it unlike grant situations.

Jessica White Plume (01:33:01):

But anyway, so, um, so a small, but it was really taking hold and people, um, felt like that was absolutely what we needed for communities and kids. And so the tribe eventually went on and bought a really huge ranch, a big kind of a little bit, um, not, yeah, kept up to date, but I really big ranch property and it's called the healing horse ranch. So, um, and they've over the past, gosh, five, six years really built it up to host all kinds of events from, you know, I still do some therapeutic programs, but also, so it's rodeos, it's, uh, um, you know, barrel racing. There's like prayer weekend, it's a big, constantly operating ranch. They built a big indoor arena. There's a race track now for Indian relay, which is a whole different discussion for the races and such. So that's a huge, um, huge development is in terms of a statement that the tribe was making any investment that we believe in is called the healing horse ranch, you know, that we believe this horse culture and all the forms that it takes now is a big part of who we are and that's a big part of our healing.

Jessica White Plume (01:34:22):

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So that was huge. And then, um, I actually then went to work at the college at our tribal college, knew it [inaudible] college. And, um, our president there at the time was, um, just amazing and brilliant. And like-minded, who's actually a relative of my husband, but also, um, her family, like many like almost studying when you talk to here, we'll say when, um, my, when we were growing up, my dad, we all had horses. You know, horses were a huge part of our lives, but now we don't anymore. So it was kind of lost, um, with the colonization and the flood here, all of the bottom lands in this reservation, all of the grassland garden ranch lands, it was all flooded out. So it was like another wave of, of trauma that then took out the whole routing courses, everything. But, um, so people will talk about when I was young, my dad, but now it's kind of getting lost.

Jessica White Plume (01:35:28):

And so my, my boss at the college was one of those. She had all these memories and pictures of her dad on horse all the time, but her kids haven't had the chance. So she was all about bringing back the horse culture. And, um, long story short, I was able to go into, I was the only psychology doctor to run an agriculture department, but in our indigenous worldview, it makes all the sense in the world, right? Because horses are healing, gardens are healing, community is healing. Um, it is all psychology. It is all health. And so we, um, one of the programs that we started was as now operating as the only tribal college, um, associates degree in equine studies. So tribal kids or anybody can go to our college and get an equine studies degree. And one of the tracks is, um, like equine-assisted healing and learning, you know, and then the other one is natural horsemanship.

Jessica White Plume (01:36:29):

They want to focus more on the horsemanship or the healing communities part. So that's ongoing. I, well, I kind of, sometimes we collaborate, but I'm not employed by the college anymore, but we still collaborate and do like, we just finished, um, the third year of the bottom honoring the bottom lands ride. So when I was telling you about the flood, um, which was really a big changer in terms of this reservation here, um, displaced like 90% of the population, all the good, beautiful fertile land or the clan ship systems who broken. And it was a huge deal, um, because the army Corps of engineer flooded out everything. So it's, and it was really recent. It was like in the sixties, seventies, and it's still really a hard topic for people to talk about. And I grew up on the, I grew up on the right, I see all throughout my childhood, 1986 to now we had the chief big foot Memorial ride.

Jessica White Plume (01:37:38):

And it was a ride to heal from the massacre at wounded knee. So that massacre was, which is talked about in black elk speaks, but that might ask for her was really the last point of conflict between the us military and the tribes. And it was just so horrific. And that was the point at which I know black elk says the hoop was broken at wounded knee. And, um, it is not something you can sit, you know, in a therapist room and fix, or, or even in a gym or like we were just at a loss and, and they predicted it would take seven generations to heal from that, you know, that's where the whole seventh generation reference comes from. So, um, so in 1986, you know, my dad and some others got some spiritual instructions to go on this journey with the horses, right.

Jessica White Plume (01:38:33):

To get on the horses and go on the same journey, um, that big foot in his, his people came on from, um, standing rock all the way down to wounded knee where the massacre happened. So, and we right in the winter on the same days that they wrote. So we'd be like, you know, middle of winter, Christmas

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mornings, like a cup of soup, you know, we didn't even do Christmas, but we wrote and we froze. And then we got to wounded knee in 1990, you had, uh, a wiping the tears ceremony for something you're supposed to have a year after someone passed, but it didn't happen for all those people in the mass grave. So we had that wiping the tears ceremony, and it was really powerful. There's documentaries and stuff if you're interested, but it was really, really powerful. And, um, you know, just a way, or, I mean, like I said, it's healing, it's mental health, it's spiritual health.

Jessica White Plume (01:39:30):

And we did it with the horses and it would have just not been the same without the horses, you know, and that journey and that mileage on the horses, you know, after, like you said, after an hour after 10 miles of that rhythm with the horses, it reaches your spirit maybe more than it would if we had like a talking circle in a gym, you know, so we went on this journey with the horses many years and it was a huge, huge part of my upbringing. So being here now in Fort Berthold, in North Dakota, we had discussed, you know, having a ride for honoring the bottom lands here. Um, but it was so much more recent. And, um, and so we have, and we've brought, there are still very few elders alive who remember the bottom lines before the flood, but they are still alive.

Jessica White Plume (01:40:17):

And so we invite the elders and, um, having them share their stories, but after we ride and arrive, um, so in a way the horses have in those kinds of events, they just help us to process what we can't just like process on our own. And they bring an energy that's uplifting and make us feel okay about it. And, you know, just bring us back to back to the moment where you have to be when you're trying to proxy or something really, really difficult. And, and, and they make us feel proud and you know, all these things. So, um, that was one of the things that we did at the college there. Um, and of course we kind of always had ongoing outreach writing programs just to reconnect. The people in the kids are so many kids who want to ride all the time. Um, it's so now we have since then moved out to twin Buttes, which is the more, it's a Southern segment of the MHA nation.

Jessica White Plume (01:41:17):

The Fort Berthold reservation is in six segments. We are now, and that was all happening in the new town area, which is the main central hub of the reservation. That's where the big ranches and the college, but we have since moved out to this really, uh, the smallest and also super beautiful and amazing segment here called twin Buttes. And, um, so we're doing lots of things. Um, you know, we have, um, orchard garden, buffaloes, we have the honeybees, and of course we're doing the horse program as well. The, um, our Councilman here, actually his, he says his best friend growing up with a horse. And again, so he's all in huge support of it. So right now we're, we really just host kids and families riding at our house. But, uh, and we do like the, the bottom lines ride and we host races and games and things like that, um, to reconnect the, the worst culture, but in, um, North Dakota, a game changer is to have an indoor arena.

Jessica White Plume (01:42:25):

So right now we're in the process of building all those facilities, um, to have an indoor arena, so we can ride in a winter and an outdoor arena and a racetrack. And, um, you know, the vision that we all have, and our Councilman is definitely supporting is that it would just be the norm for kids to get off of school and go ride and it'll be riding around the community like they used to, um, or, you know, as much as possible, like they used to have trails all over. We'll have our own family, family days we'll have cultural

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events. Um, so that's kind of the, the vision and, you know, the tribe again has really embraced this and not just this tribe, but it's really a horse culture movement across the great Plains and the south and other places I don't know as well, but definitely across the great Plains, you know, um, there are programs all over that are recognized or they're just grassroots people.

Jessica White Plume (01:43:26):

You know, like my uncle was saying, you know, we're having a horse camp this weekend come on over. And, um, it's just really reclaiming, um, a way of wellness that is ours, you know, and it can be a lot of peoples, um, whether it's the horses or some other more naturally vibration oriented way of healing, that's happening all over. And it's really, really exciting. And it's good to hear about others because like, Hey, you're doing that. Oh gosh. Yeah. You know, maybe we can do that or nice to see you we'll see you at the next one. And, um, yeah, it's, it's kind of a movement happening all over.

Warwick Schiller (01:44:12):

I think it's amazing. I think there's a movement happening a bit everywhere actually, you know, like the conversations that we're having here and like the conversations I've had on the podcast, uh, I don't know. They just seem to becoming a bit more mainstream. I just feel like there's a shift and you know, like the internet is a good thing. Social media is a good thing and a bad thing. But I think like social media, if you, if you are interested in, in all this healing connection sort of stuff, it's out there. If you're interested in a whole lot of crap, it's out there too. But I really think that there's no reason to be isolated anymore, as far as having access to this sort of information or people who are interested in this sort of it's in this sort of thing, you know, without the internet, uh, you know, most people would not be aware of any of this stuff, but so I, yeah, I, I just think it's, um, the time that we're in, I think we're coming out of a, I dunno, coming out of a time and into a different time where I think everybody's healing and trying to heal the earth and have a connection with the earth.

Warwick Schiller (01:45:24):

And I think, I just feel like we're all starting to discover connection again, rediscover it, you know, like Carrie lake says w when she helps people, you know, I'm not, I'm not teaching you anything. I'm just hoping you remember what you were, you were born with. And we were born with that, that connection to each other and the nature itself. And I really think for me, it's been, you know, and for a lot of people that follow me, the horses is the first jumping off point because you can't, you know, you can't start to get this connection stuff with a horse and not have it go any further, you know what I mean? And then, then it goes to the trees and then, then whatever, and then people, and, or maybe in, you know, people first or whatever, but, you know, I, I really think the horses, uh, a huge part of just to, you know, just a way of connecting with nature and spirit and the whole bit. So thank you for your part in that. I think you guys are doing amazing work out there and just, you know, I know the tiniest bit of it, but, you know, there's just, there's so much trauma and healing from that trauma to that's needed. And I think what you guys are doing, or I'm hoping a lot of people with that,

Jessica White Plume (01:46:58):

Yeah. We see it happening. You know, sometimes you get impatient and you want maybe change or healing to happen faster, but, but it is, you know, we see it everywhere and we see it, um, from all kinds of places and disciplines and people like yourself. And yeah, I was just saying I'm really, really lucky to be born at this time where the shift is happening. Although I sometimes fantasize about being born long time ago, and you can just ride these Hills without ever hitting offense, you know, by and large, I'm

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really feel fortunate to be born at this time, you know, in the seventh generation and all this, all this shift is happening. Yeah. I think

Warwick Schiller (01:47:39):

You were born at this time for a reason. Okay. Yeah. I'm pretty sure we both were born at this time for a reason. So people want to learn more about, so the programs you guys are doing and, you know, maybe they can help it anyway. How do they, um, find out more about it?

Jessica White Plume (01:47:58):

Uh, well, let's see. I could share my email probably or share my phone number

Warwick Schiller (01:48:06):

On the podcast. Yeah.

Jessica White Plume (01:48:09):

Maybe on the website or something, but I would say, you know, email me or text me or call me. Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (01:48:16):

Okay. Well, it's been such a pleasure and an honor to have you on here. I, um, I dunno, I'm starting to, I've always thought I had no intuition, but I'm starting to get some, and I'm getting some intuition telling me that this is not going to be the last time we have anything to do with each other.

Jessica White Plume (01:48:35):

I hope you're ready. Thank you are right. Yes. I would love to keep in touch and yeah. Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (01:48:40):

I can see a trip to decode is in my future.

Jessica White Plume (01:48:43):

Oh, yay. Oh, yay. I see a trip to California.

Warwick Schiller (01:48:49):

Oh, well it's so thank you so much for not only the conversation, but for whatever you did for me back there a little while ago, because, uh, it's something you will never forget to thank you being for being a part of that.

Jessica White Plume (01:49:05):

Thank you. I feel blessed to have been a part of that, that moment as well. So thank you.

Warwick Schiller (01:49:11):

So, um, and you guys at home listening, thank you guys so much for joining us and, um, yeah, the aptly named journey on podcast. It's been quite a journey. This one. So thanks again, Jessica, take care.

Speaker 1 (01:49:27):

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Thanks for listening to the journey on podcast with work Schiller Warrick has over 650 full length training videos on his online video library at videos dot Wark, schiller.com. Be sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram, to see his latest training advice and insights.