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Witness: Hisam Choucair

Statement No: 1 (For 'Phase One')

Date Statement Made: 28 November 2018

THE GRENFELL TOWER PUBLIC INQUIRY

Witness: Hisam Choucair

I believe the facts stated in this witness statement are true:

Signed: .gglitEnsfitz>.

I, Hisam Choucair, a male, , currently of, will say as follows:

1. I make this statement as a Core Participant of the Grenfell Tower Public Inquiry (the 'Inquiry').

The evidence contained within this statement is within my own knowledge unless otherwise

stated. Where any statement is based on matters of information or belief I will state the

relevant source.

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2. This statement is my statement of evidence relevant to phase 1 of the Inquiry. I have

additional evidence to give relevant to phase 2 of the Inquiry and reserve the right to add to

this statement at a later stage.

3. My name is Hisam Choucair and I am the brother of Mrs Nadia Choucair and the son of Ms

Sirria Choucair. I am the third oldest child in the Choucair family. I once had a beautiful

sister, Nadia, and a loving, caring, beautiful Mum, Sirria, whose lives have been robbed from

us and deprived of our love. I lost six members of my family in the fire at Grenfell Tower.

4. I have an older sister, Sawsan, who resided with my Mum in Flat 191 Grenfell Tower, but

thank God she was not there on that night, 14 June 2017, otherwise she would be gone too.

5. I have an older brother, Nabil, who is married to Malak, who is the sister of Bassem Choukair.

Bassem was the husband of my sister, Nadia. Nabil and Malak have three beautiful children.

6. I was engaged to my wife, Kona, in 1996. Bassem, who is my cousin, got engaged to Nadia

in the same year and went on to marry Nadia in 1998. I married Kona in 1997 and we have

two children, (now agedl l) and (now )

7. I still remember to this day Kona, myself, Bassem and Nadia walking as couples together in

a village called Nahle in Lebanon. I have lived in the Royal Borough of Kensington and

Chelsea since I was born. I resided with my parents in a spacious two bedroomed ground

floor flat in Redcliffe Gardens — Flat 7, 90-92 Redcliffe Gardens, London, SW10 9HH, but

shortly after the birth of Nadia we moved into a larger flat. We moved into a three bedroomed

spacious flat on the third floor of 90-92 Redcliffe Gardens, being Flat number 14. We had a

secure tenancy with the Family Housing Association. That housing association was located

at 1 Bolton's Place, London, SW5 OLP.

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8. In my (first) 'phase 2 statement' I will set out in detail the history of how my sister and later

my mother ended up living in their flats on the 22nd floor of Grenfell Tower as of 14 June

2017.

Flat 191 and Flat 193 Grenfell Tower

9. I am fully familiar with the layout of both Flat 191 and Flat 193 and exhibit to this statement

two diagrams, one of each of their flats, which I mark HC1 (Flat 191) and HC2 (Flat 193)

10. I recall that Nadia and my Mum's flat were both situated on the 19th floor when you used the

lift and that the entrance to the building before the refurbishment was via the Lancaster West

entrance.

1 1. I visited my Mum and sister on many occasions prior, during and after the refurbishment. I

also stayed in Grenfell Tower for a period of about four - five weeks with my children in Flat

193. The TMO were informed by Nadia and Bassem that I was staying there. It is another

reason why I became very familiar with the Tower.

Before the refurbishment:

12. Prior to the refurbishment, the pipes for the central heating ran underneath the tiles in my

Mum's flat, so when the heating was turned on during cold days it sometimes got like a

sauna. The water tanks and pipes connected to it were situated in the storage cupboard in

the sitting room, top left-hand corner. The windows at the time were sliding windows with

mosquito nets in between.

13. Also before the refurbishment, I recall a security office that was visible from the main

entrance on the ground floor, which was fitted with many CCTV screens. I only actually saw

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the security guard a couple of times when I visited. I asked my sister about this and she said

that he would be 'doing a patrol'.

14. I observed that the building had an integrated alarm system. However, this moved during

the refurbishment. I never had an issue with the bell or fob system from when it was situated

at the Lancaster West entrance.

Gas

15. On more than one occasion during the refurbishment — and even after the fire, I could smell

gas from the main road all the way up to the main entrance of the tower. When this

happened, the smell was so strong that it would make you feel light-headed and would give

you a severe headache. Nadia and my Mum always complained of this feeling. I recall that

the main contractor doing the work at the time was National Grid and Transco and that they

were still there after the fire. National Grid were dealing with the works underneath the

bridge, I think this is called Station Walk. Transco were dealing with the upper end of the

works on Bramley Road. They continued this work even after the fire.

16. I cannot be sure of the exact dates but I think that the problems existed even up to one or

two months before the fire. Nadia had told me that she reported the smell of gas to the TMO

on numerous occasions and that they were aware. The gas works took place on Station Walk

and St Ann's Road and underneath the walkways.

17. Nadia complained on numerous occasions of feeling dizzy and of dizzy spells due to what

she described to me as the smell of gas in the building and from outside. This was during

the refurbishment in 2016.

18. Nadia's youngest daughter, Zainab, suffered from asthma and used an inhaler. This

furthered Nadia's concern about the gas she could smell.

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Roads surrounding Grenfell Tower:

19. St Ann's Road was constantly being dug up and was closed for many weeks — even after

the fire.

Entrance to the Tower/fob system:

20. On many occasions while visiting our family and using the main entrance opposite the bin

area, I would push the bell to my Mum or to Nadia's flat and the buttons would be jammed.

21. Due to certain bell buttons being jammed, I would have to call my mum or Nadia to come

downstairs and to physically let me in by manually releasing the exit button inside the main

entrance.

22. When the fob system was working, it would show a green light and automatically release the

door entrance via the lifts, but you would only have 10 seconds to get through the lift entrance

door. If the lift door was not accessed within the 10 seconds, you would either have to use

the stairs to get up the 22'd floor or go back and re-ring the bell. The main entrance door

needs to be closed for this to work. This was frustrating because there were many occasions

when the front door would release but the door to the lift area remained locked with the red

light showing.

Lifts and Stairwell:

23. The entrance to the lift area would often not open even when the green light came on via the

fob system to gain entry. I would sometimes have to give the lift door entrance a hard barge

with the side of my shoulder; sometimes once or twice. I was quite shocked by this, bearing

in mind the building had quite recently been refurbished.

24. I recall during the refurbishment there being a square piece of cardboard, A4 size, which

looked like it had been laminated as it had a shiny cover and it had written on it with a black

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marker "in the event of an emergency fire do not use the lifts". This sign caught my attention

on entering the building in the area where the lifts were and when exiting. It was a cheap

contractor's temporary sign written by hand and was stuck on with blu tac between the two

lifts on the ground floor.

25. My mum lived on the 19th floor prior the refurbishment. After the refurbishment, the 19th floor

became the 22nd floor. Because of the change in floor numbers, I wasn't used to the lifts'

floor number after the refurbishment. I always used to push "floor 19" when getting into the

lift and it would drop me off at the wrong floor. I would then have to use the stairwell to get

to my mum's floor which I would describe as narrow, dull, dirty and had poor lighting.

26. I believe that there were about 8 to 9 steps per floor and there are two sets of steps between

each floor. Each step was so close to the next one that it would even be difficult for me to

walk down them in ordinary circumstances. I can't imagine how difficult it would have been

in a fire to walk or run down at speed without tripping over. I also understand from using the

stairs what it would have been like for someone who had a disability.

27. I was also aware of a couple of centimetre gaps that there were between some of the stairs

at the edges and on numerous floors. I think that was higher up because the concrete on

the lower floors was right to the edge of the wall.

28. There was a time when I pushed the wrong floor button by mistake. It took me to the upper

floors, I ended up going to floor above where my family lived without realising. When I exited

the lift, I observed a roof access door. It was a solid black metal door with no way of getting

through it as it required a key that one of the people who ran the building would have, for

example the caretaker or perhaps a fire brigade officer.

29. I remember walking back down the stairs and trying to find the floor that my family lived on

and feeling confused as I had not understood that I was just one floor above my family. It

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took me some time to find my mum's floor as I got confused and lost my bearings. This was

due to the change in floor numbers., I remember observing on the upper floors lobby area

that the pipes were not boxed in or covered with relevant fireproof material.

30. I would only use the stairwell when the lifts were broken. I noticed that to the right hand side

of the main entrance door, there was another exit, it appeared to be a glass door. I never

used this exit and it was not used as an entrance door to the flats. This is another way of

getting out. I never noticed a caretaker or security guard in Grenfell Tower after the

refurbishments.

Doors:

31. I recall that there was one time when I visited my mum's flat after the refurbishment that all

the windows were closed in the flat and I locked the door by pulling the handle up, sat down

with my mum in the living room and after about 10 minutes the door just swung wide open

on its own as if somebody had pushed it open. I asked my mum "are Nadia's kids at home

or in your flat?" She replied "no". I then searched the bedroom, toilet and kitchen thinking

somebody may have come into the flat or broken in, but there was no sign of anybody doing

this. I observed that all of the windows had been closed in my mum's flat so I couldn't believe

how a draught could have come in from the lobby to force open what I thought was a fire

door (especially after the refurbishment). I remember that I locked the door again but this

time I put the chain on the lock.

32. I observed that on the new doors there were a couple of centimetres gap at the bottom which

did cause a draught to come in. Bassem put a draught excluder on the bottom of door of flat

191 and flat 193 from the inside because it was that bad.

33. Nadia had the same front door as my mum but the colour was red. Nadia experienced the

same problems with the doors not shutting properly and the draught that came in due to the

gap of a couple of centimetres from the bottom of her front door. I remember during the

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refurbishment, Bassem and Nadia showed me a long metal rod with numerous hinges

attached to it. It was from their door. They said it was taken off by the contractors because

the doors wouldn't close. This rod was approximately two metres in length.

34. 1 remember clearly that the front door to my mother's flat did not self-close properly. I

remember that for both my mother's and Nadia's flat that you had to raise the handle behind

you when closing the door to make sure that it shut properly. If you did not shut it properly in

that way, then it would open again by itself if there was a draft or somebody pushed it open.

35. I also noticed that the doors into the lobbies were lightweight but only on certain floors. This

was not the case on floor 22 as I remember the lobby door being strong and thick. I presume

that the lobby doors were fire doors but didn't pay much attention to this.

36. All the internal doors in both my mother's flat and my sister's flat were in place between each

room as far as I remember. I believe that the kitchen in Nadia's flat had sliding doors going

between the living room and the kitchen, but the rest of the doors were normal. However, in

my mother's flat, there was a section to the end of the kitchen that was open plan. This was

around lm long and was towards the window end of the kitchen. She did not have a false

wall in this part of her kitchen. There was just a sliding door in Nadia's kitchen which was

two-three metres long which acted as a false wall and the kitchen had a main kitchen door

attached to it.

Water pressure:

37. When I stayed at Nadia's flat for a period of four or five weeks after the refurbishment I did

observe there was a lack of water pressure especially from the taps in the kitchen.

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Windows and Ventilation Shafts:

38. One day I visited Nadia and the family in the evening. We were sitting down in the sitting

room, the TV was on and my children were playing with Zainab. So, there was a lot of noise

in the room. I suddenly heard a ghostly sound which managed to penetrate over all the other

noise in the room. It was like a wh0000000mm. It made me laugh, as it was unusual and it

was the first time that I had heard such a noise. I remember asking Nadia "Did you hear

that? What the bloody hell is that?" She replied, laughingly, that it was the air ventilation

shaft. She said "The lift usually breaks down when it makes that noise". I asked whether

she had reported to the TMO. She said yes, they were aware of it. I then said "It sounds

like the motor is working overtime". When I heard this noise all the windows in the living

room were shut.

39. There was another time when I came to visit Nadia. That day it was a bright clear day and

the sky was clear. I was sitting with Nadia in her living room. I heard a very loud whistling

breeze kind of a sound as if there was a draught. I couldn't believe what I was hearing and

I investigated it and where it was coming from. The first thing I did was to check that all the

windows were closed and that they were in fact properly closed, which they were. I detected

that the noise was coming from a certain window. I walked up to that window and opened

the palm of my hand in mid air and floated it across the panel of the window, but I could not

feel any breeze. I then looked under the panel and observed the whole panel from end to

end wasn't sealed properly and there was a big gap. I said to Nadia "Have you reported this

to the TMO?" She said yes she had. I then asked her "And what have they done?" She

said "They are going to send someone senior from the contractors that carried out the work

to have a look at it". I then said to Nadia "What are you going to do in the meantime?" She

replied laughingly "Cover it with sellotape". I could tell from looking at these windows at the

time that some of the windows were fitted ok and that some weren't. Nadia's flat was always

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cold but somehow on a sunny, humid day and with all the windows closed it could be like a

sauna.

40. The ventilation shafts when I got out of the lift were very rarely cleaned. However, you could

tell when they were cleaned because the panel would sparkle on the 22nd floor. The fan

extractor in the kitchen in flat 193 was in the window panel but I don't believe that Nadia ever

got any benefit from it when it was turned on at the switch because the breeze was so strong

around the north west of the building it would jam the motor and the propeller inside the fan

extractor would end up just freezing.

41. I observed that the wind was strongest in the living room and all the way round to the kitchen.

There were times on a hot day when I would open the windows to let in the fresh air and the

windows would just slam shut. The sound of the draught that came from underneath the

panel of the window I would describe like the sound that Superman makes when blowing his

mouth to put out a fire or freeze something, but with a loud whistling sound attached to it.

The sound of the ventilation coming from the ventilation shaft didn't have a particular time or

a season as I heard it during the day and in the evening, but again I wish to stress my sister's

comment about this with reference to the lift.

42. I know that the windows were changed during the refurbishment. Before they were changed,

they were not good quality. You could hear a lot of noise from outside, I would often hear

sirens from outside when I visited. I didn't notice any gaps in the old windows either.

Day before the fire:

43. The day before the fire was the last time I saw my mum, Nadia, her children and Bassem.

My

children, and , had stayed at my mum's place overnight and had been

taken to school by Nabil from my mum's house in the morning. I went to go and see my wife,

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Kona, who was in . I remember she told me to get the kids because she had a bad

gut feeling that something was going to happen to them. I returned home from

with Kona and dropped her off at our house which is less than a mile away from Grenfell

Tower.

44. I then proceeded to Grenfell Tower to pick up my kids from my mum's flat at around 4pm. I

sat down with her for about half an hour. Before going, I then knocked on the door of Nadia's

flat, flat 193. I remember that Mierna and Fatima answered the door with Bassem close

behind them. I remember saying hello to them and chatting to them for about five minutes.

I remember speaking to Nadia as well who was trying to put Zainab to sleep as she wasn't

feeling well and had a temperature. Nadia told me to come in, but I said sorry to her and

that I would come another time because I was so tired. Of course, I did not know that this

would be the very last time that I would speak to them or see all of them.

Night of the fire:

45. It was a hot, humid day, during the month of Ramadan. I heard my phone ringing at about

2.48am. I remember thinking "Who would ring me at this time?" I am actually surprised that

I woke up at all as I am quite a heavy sleeper. On answering my phone my brother, Nabil,

said to me "Hisam, put on the TV. Grenfell Tower is on fire. I'm heading down there now."

46. I immediately turned on the TV, I think to Sky news and saw the Tower engulfed in a blanket

of flames from all angles. The flames were orange and yellow. I immediately shouted to

Kona to get the children up. I said the building where my mum's flat was on fire. Kona put

a jacket on the children and got dressed herself whilst we were al l panicking at the same

time. I remember putting my children in the double buggy and then running down the road

to the scene. I was panting as I was fasting. I could hear a helicopter in the sky and it

seemed to be in one position. I could hear that as soon as I left my flat. I was outside my flat

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within the space of five minutes. From the moment I left my flat, I tried to ring Nadia, my mum

and Bassem. I tried them one after the other. I tried to call them numerous times. They would

all just ring and ring.

47. I was getting closer to the Tower at this point. I remember hearing the sound of fire engines,

ambulances and police cars. I could also see National Grid or Transco vans, I cannot

remember which one it was specifically. I remember that the sound of the police helicopter

was getting stronger. When I got to the Westway, I saw ambulances parked all the way

down with their engines switched off. My brother, Nabil, and I had arranged to meet at the

Westway. Whilst running to the scene I called my older sister, Sawsan, and asked her where

she was. She said she was on the way but coming from Shepherd's Bush in a car. I arrived

at the scene at 3am. I recall this because I checked my telephone. Nabil parked his car and

got out. We rushed towards the Tower, pushing my children in the pram. It was chaotic.

There were people scattered everywhere just looking shocked, standing still. And some of

them were in tears. There was the noise of the helicopter and all the emergency services.

This made it hard to hear each other. The road was cordoned off by the police. Their officers

were shouting "get back, get back".

48. There was debris and pieces of the building falling off, reaching as far as St Ann's Road and

it was like black charcoal. I could see the Tower from a gap between the shop and the

railway bridge from the underground. I could see that the building was engulfed in flames

from all angles. However I couldn't see the lower floors from where I was standing It was

like the flames were gobbling up the building. The flames were whirling round the building

and they covered the tower like blanket. They were yellow and orange in colour. I believe

this was due to the design of the crown on the building. I could see flats on fire inside the

building from where I was. I could hear screaming in the background it was that loud. I

knew, having turned on the television prior to leaving the flat, and from when I arrived and

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saw the Tower from the bridge that the London Fire Brigade didn't have control of the fire. I

also noticed that the London Fire Brigade were not aiming any water pumps, or the water

was not reaching, from the middle floors to the top of the tower.

49. I could also see thick smoke coming out from the top of the building.

50. The debris that was falling from the building and the smoke made my eyes watery and sting.

I remember that I started to cough and that I could taste a plastic taste in my mouth. I

constantly tried to spit out the taste, but it remained in my mouth. There was also a smoky

uncomfortable feeling inside my nose that remained there despite me trying to blow it out. I

could also smell a strong smell of plastic, it was as if all sorts of materials were burning.

51. I told my brother, let's split up and see if we can get round the cordon by going through other

streets. I bumped into a very close friend of our family and was able to leave my children

with her. I told them to take the children away from the scene, despite them having already

seen the building on fire. The children were crying and I could see that they were getting

traumatised from what was going on.

52. 1 remember speaking to a police officer and requesting permission to be let through the

cordon having informed him that we had family inside the Tower and that we needed to

search rescue centres as people were being rescued and had run out.

53. The male police officer that I spoke to refused, so I requested to speak to his sergeant or the

person in charge. 1 now know that the person that came over to me at that point is Inspector

Nick Thatcher, who has recently given evidence at the Inquiry. I remember speaking to him

very clearly. I informed him that I was a family member of people who were trapped on the

22nd floor and that we needed to search the rescue centres. I said that we were not able to

get to them due to the roads being cordoned off. Inspector Thatcher refused to let us

through. I requested his shoulder number which he gave to me. I then said "is it sergeant

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[and then his number]?" Inspector Nick Thatcher then said as he was walking away "it is

Inspector actually". I remember feeling not listened to and that the police officer's comments

were cold, blunt and uncaring.

54. However, I didn't believe that it was right that I shouldn't go through the cordon to look for

my family so I sneaked under it after he had gone.

55. Afterwards, I remember searching a pub restaurant called The Garden Bar & Grill on

Bramley Road because I was told that survivors and casualties were in there. There was an

ambulance crew in there and they were treating about four people for smoke inhalation. I

could tell they had come from the Tower. Their faces were black and they were covered with

a red blanket. They had an oxygen mask for each of them. I think at least one person was

covered with a foil looking insulating material and seemed to be shaking with trauma and

shock. I walked up to each person and took a close look at them to make sure that they

were not my family. I must say at this point the hope that I had that my family were still alive,

or had been rescued, was starting to fade away. This caused me to panic.

56. 1 asked the ambulance crew if they had anybody from the 22nd floor and gave them our

family's names and surname. They said "no" but they told me that I should go to search the

other rescue centres. I think that it was at this point that I was given a list of five or six rescue

centres. I believe these were places which I had never heard of before. I will set out what

happened from this point forward in my (first) 'Phase Two' statement as I understand that

the matters I can assist the Inquiry with regarding the operation of the rescue centres and

how relatives of residents experience the authorities' response to the fire is a matter for

Phase Two.

Investigations and the public inquiry

57. I gave one statement to the police as part of their investigation.

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