TD153[2009]-D3-IRC-RPP

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Transcript of Proceedings

QUEENSLAND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS COMMISSION

HEARING

MS G K FISHER, Commissioner

No TD/2009/153

INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS ACT 1999

S74 - REINSTATEMENT

QUEENSLAND INDUSTRIAL EDUCATION UNION OF EMPLOYEES vDJARRAGUN COLLEGE

CAIRNS

..DATE 09/03/2010

CONTINUED FROM 05/03/2010

..DAY 3

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The Law Courts, George Street, Brisbane, Q. 4000 Telephone: (07) 3247 4360 Email: [email protected]

RELEASED TO PARTIES AND

PUBLIC


Date: 9 March, 2010Attachments - NO

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THE COMMISSION RESUMED AT 9.15 A.M.

COMMISSIONER: Good morning. Can I just take the appearances again to assist the reporters.

MR VAUGHAN: Vaughan P, representing the applicant.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

MR POLLARD: May it please the Commission, Pollard, initial C of Jones Ross, representing the respondent and with me I have Ms Jean Illingworth, the principal and CEO of Djarragun College.

COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Vaughan, is there any issue with Ms Illingworth being present?

MR VAUGHAN: Yes, we would like to raise an issue with that, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, go ahead.

MR VAUGHAN: Particularly on the basis that she's a witness and she would be present for the cross-examination of all our witnesses prior to giving her evidence.

COMMISSIONER: So you're asking that she not be present for the period that your witnesses give their evidence, is that-----

MR VAUGHAN: That's correct.

COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr Pollard, what's your view?

MR POLLARD: Commissioner, we have - my respondent is - is my instructor - Ms Illingworth is my instructor in relation to these matters and we do require her present to give us instructions based on evidence which may - may arise. Now, I don't know that it's a contested issue that a person is entitled to hear their accuser and in - in all of the evidence Ms Illingworth is certainly the accused, as it were, however-----

COMMISSIONER: Well, I wouldn’t have thought that was the case, given that we're actually dealing with the dismissal of somebody-----

MR POLLARD: Well, yes, but, in any event, Commissioner, Ms Illingworth is - it is certainly necessary that she be here to give me instructions throughout the hearing of the matter.

COMMISSIONER: Well, Mr Pollard, it - it would be the case that if I were to permit Ms Illingworth to remain, then it

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does become the question of weight that I can actually give to her evidence, given that she would have heard all of the evidence of the applicant's witnesses and Mr Vaughan would be entitled to make submissions that I shouldn't, in fact, place too much weight on - on her evidence, given that she was present, notwithstanding that she was here as the instructor.

MR POLLARD: Commissioner, I would suggest that such submissions would - would only go to any evidence in reply that Ms Illingworth leads following the giving of - or hearing of the evidence of the other side, given that her - she hasn't actually tendered a statement in relation to the matter as far as her evidence.

COMMISSIONER: Well, in all of the matters that I've done, Mr Pollard, where the instructor has remained and is a witness and the applicant is - is open to make submissions on the - the matter of - of the weight of the evidence that can be given to the person who was the instructor because of their presence in the courtroom.

MR POLLARD: Yes-----

COMMISSIONER: If you're prepared to take the risk that Ms Illingworth's evidence might be - not have as much weight as might what otherwise be given if she wasn't present, then that's a matter for you.

MR POLLARD: All right. Okay, Commissioner, I - I - I take that point and what I'll do is I'll just - may I quickly confer with my client?

COMMISSIONER: Sure. Can I say, I understand the need to have an instructor, it just is an awkward situation when the instructor is probably one of the key witnesses as well.

MR POLLARD: Indeed, Commissioner, the leadership team itself is - there - there isn't actually a member of the leadership team which isn't given evidence in relation to this matter and so therefore that's going to make getting instructions nigh on impossible. The only suggestion - the only alternative would be that I have somebody present who - who may have knowledge, but certainly not firsthand knowledge of the issues and that's going to leave the respondent severely disadvantaged in relation to providing adequate and appropriate instructions and accurate ones.

COMMISSIONER: Well, at this stage I'll allow you to take some instructions on the matter.

MR POLLARD: Commissioner, I've - I've discussed this with my client and what - what she's going to do is contact the college and see if - on short notice - we can make alternative arrangements for another instructor to attend.

COMMISSIONER: Did you-----

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MR POLLARD: But I'm not - whilst it does disadvantage us, I'm not keen to delay proceedings and I - I don't see any - any problem with commencing. I've certainly been given full instructions in relation to cross-examination of Mr Duncan. I don't anticipate that there's going to be any new evidence adduced that we haven't been apprised of to this point, so on that basis, we - we should be right to proceed.

COMMISSIONER: All right, well, until a new instructor arrives, if there is matters - and if Ms Illingworth is - is outside and you need to take some instructions on the matter, we'll deal with that at the time. So, effectively what I'm saying is, until such time as a new instructor arrives, if there is going to be one-----

MR POLLARD: Okay.

COMMISSIONER: -----and you need to talk to Ms Illingworth and she's outside-----

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: -----you just need to ask the question, okay?

MR POLLARD: Yes, thank you.

COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr Vaughan.

MR VAUGHAN: Thank you, Commissioner, just to outline some brief facts of our claim in respect to Mr Duncan prior to calling him in to give his evidence, Mr Duncan commenced his employment at Djarragun College as head of secondary on the 27th of January 2009. Mr Duncan's employment conditions are contained in his contract of service, which was annexed as annexure 1 to his original statement and the Djarragun College certified agreement 2007 was - which was annexed as annexure 6 to that same statement.

Mr Duncan - Duncan was dismissed by correspondence dated the 27th of June 2009 with the effective dismissal date being the 14th of January 2009 - sorry, 14th of July - I apologise - 2009 and again, that was annexure 2 to the first statement. Attached to the correspondence was a copy of a probation assessment, which was conducted in his absence and that was dated the 25th of June 2009, annexed as annexure 3 to the same statement.

Mr Duncan is a teacher of considerable experience, he's been employed as a teacher for 41 years. He holds a diploma in teaching primary and special needs, a graduate diploma in special education, a certificate in deaf teaching, a diploma from the Australian Association of Teachers of the Deaf, an associate diploma of business and is a registered teacher in three States and Territories in Australia.

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We submit that Mr Duncan performed his duties competently at all times and wherever there are any issues in respect of his performance, that there are legitimate and reasons of mitigating circumstances around that and we allege that Mr Duncan's dismissal was unfair and in contravention of section 73 of the Industrial Relations Act 1999.

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COMMISSIONER: Okay. So, you're going to call Mr Duncan?

MR VAUGHAN: Yes, please.

KENNETH WILLIAM DUNCAN, SWORN AND EXAMINED:

MR VAUGHAN: Thank you, Mr Duncan. Would you mind just explaining to the Commissioner your position-----

COMMISSIONER: Well, we might just get Mr Duncan's full name and address first-----

MR VAUGHAN: Okay.

COMMISSIONER: -----to identify?-- Do I sit or stand or-----

No, remain seated, thank you?-- My name is Kenneth William Duncan, and my current address is 16 Callistemon Drive, Katherine, Northern Territory.

MR VAUGHAN: And if you could just confirm your position at the college when you were employed there?-- I was employed there as head of senior secondary.

Thank you. And you were initially appointed to that position, and then partway through your employment you became responsible for the vocational educational training. Could you tell us when you took on the VET responsibilities at the college?-- Well, thinking about in school terms, we have four terms in a year, and I was only at Djarragun for two terms, terms one and two, so I started doing VET probably halfway through term one. Prior to that was the Vimal Shankaran, the current assist principal, was doing it, and he was helped by a

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Chris Chigeza and by Linda McKeown, who were sort of admin assistants.

Thank you. And how was it determined that you would take on the responsibility of that?-- It was just announced that, you know, in an admin meeting - we have admin meetings once a week.

So, you didn't apply for that particular role specifically. It was announced - that became part of your role?-- Yes. When I - originally I applied to come to the college as a teacher, as a maths, science, learning support teacher, and just at or immediately prior to the interview I was told that, would I be interested in just having the - the position of head of senior secondary, so it was the same interview, so I said, "Yes."

COMMISSIONER: Mr Vaughan, I'm reluctant to intervene, but I will.

MR VAUGHAN: Mmm-hmm.

COMMISSIONER: We have a number of statements that Mr Duncan has prepared. Are you proposing to tender those statements?

MR VAUGHAN: Sorry. I didn't realise that the formality required that. Of course, yes.

COMMISSIONER: Yes. So, perhaps if we could show Mr Duncan, there's his initial statement, and then there's, I think, four statements in response. The statements in response that I have received have not been signed. I don't know whether you have signed copies, or whether we need Mr Duncan to sign them.

MR VAUGHAN: No. My apologies, Commissioner. It's our intention to have those signed in the box, if that's okay.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. So, do you have the bundle of statements there for Mr Duncan?

MR VAUGHAN: I do.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. If you can just give them to my associate, and then we'll get - give them Mr Duncan and ask him to attest to the documents.

MR VAUGHAN: Okay. So, that's his original statement.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. Can I just take you to your first statement, Mr Duncan. The one that I have is signed by you and dated the 15th of January 2010. Do you have that before you?-- You'll have to give me a minute, your Honour.

It's headed statement of Kenneth William Duncan. The others are headed statements in response?-- Yes, I have it.

XN: MR VAUGHAN 3-7 WIT: DUNCAN K W

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Okay. Now, do you have all of the attachments with - with that document there?

MR VAUGHAN: I have the attachments - for that question.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. We better just give it to you just to make sure that everybody is working off the same page.

MR VAUGHAN: Okay. Now - where's the attachments to the first statement-----?-- Your Honour, do I sign these other statements?

COMMISSIONER: Not - not at the moment.

MR VAUGHAN: That's - that's for the first statement, that's for the second statement. Both are in respect to Jean.

COMMISSIONER: So, I think, Mr Duncan, perhaps everyone could just - are all the attachments there? We've got - whilst they're numbered in your statement, they're actually marked as A, B, C, D, E and F-----

MR VAUGHAN: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: -----so have we got-----

MR VAUGHAN: I've actually put tags on those to-----

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR VAUGHAN: -----remedy that.

COMMISSIONER: All right. So, Mr Duncan, the statement which is signed and dated by you on the 15th of January 2010 with all of the attachments, is your original statement in these proceedings; that's correct?-- Yes, that's correct.

Mmm-hmm. Are there any additions or changes, corrections that you wish to make to that statement?-- No, there isn't.

Okay. Are the contents of that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?-- Yes, they are.

It'll be marked as Exhibit 1.

ADMITTED AND MARKED "EXHIBIT 1"

COMMISSIONER: Could I take you to your statements in response. The first statement in response is to Jean Illingworth, do you have that?-- Yes, I do.


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Are there any changes, corrections, additions you wish to make to that statement?-- No, there isn't.

Mmm-hmm. Are the contents of that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?-- Yes, they are.

Okay. Could you please sign and date that statement? I'll make that statement - pardon me - as Exhibit 2.


COMMISSIONER: The next statement I have in the bundle is the response statement to Mr - Mr Tekoa Tafea, is that the correct pronunciation?-- Yes.

Do you have that one? Are there any changes, corrections, additions, you wish to make to that statement?-- No, there isn't.

Are the contents of that statement are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?-- Yes, they are.

Could you sign and date that, and I'll make it as Exhibit 3.


COMMISSIONER: The next statement in response is a response to Mr Shankaran's statement. Do you have that before you?-- Yes, I do.


Mmm-hmm. Are the contents true and correct to the best of you knowledge and belief?-- Yes, they are.

Would you sign and date that statement, and it'll be marked Exhibit 4.


COMMISSIONER: The next statement I have in response from you


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is the one from - in response to Matthew Curtis. Do you have that before you?-- Yes, I do.


Are the contents of that statement true and correct to the best of you knowledge and belief?-- Yes, they are.

Marked Exhibit 5.


COMMISSIONER: Okay. Now, ordinarily, Mr Vaughan, that would comprise the evidence of the witness - evidence-in-chief. I take it there are matters that you want to raise with witness?

MR VAUGHAN: The matters that I was going to raise were to re-assert some of the matters that have been already covered in the statements, so if - if you're happy to accept that in it's primary form-----

COMMISSIONER: Well, I - I have the statements. If you - as per the directions order, if you want to elicit any further evidence, then you need to seek leave to do that.


COMMISSIONER: So, I'm asking you, I guess, whether you're seeking leave to do that.

MR VAUGHAN: The only additional matter that isn't expressly covered in the statements relates to Mr Duncan's purchase of an investment property. Now, it may not seem relevant at this stage, but it will become clearer as we go forward that we - one of the arguments that we'll be relying on is that - that Mr Duncan was that - that Mr Duncan was unaware of concerns about his performance and, in fact, just a few days before he received his dismissal letter he purchased an investment property.

COMMISSIONER: Mmm-hmm.

MR VAUGHAN: And so I was just going to ask-----

COMMISSIONER: Okay. Well, perhaps we might lead up to it in this way; we'd better establish from Mr Duncan what it is that he's seeking out of this application; whether he's seeking reinstatement or whether he's seeking something else. We'd also best establish what Mr Duncan's been doing since his dismissal and the income.


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COMMISSIONER: And then I think we can lead into the investment property on that basis.

MR VAUGHAN: Okay. Mr Duncan, is - is not at this stage seeking-----

COMMISSIONER: Look, you'd better ask him the question, he's the one giving the-----

MR VAUGHAN: Okay.

COMMISSIONER: -----evidence.

MR VAUGHAN: Sorry.


MR VAUGHAN: Mr Duncan, if you could just explain to the Commissioner what we're seeking; are you prepared to return to your position at the college if - if the Commission was to reinstate you?-- Initially I was, but I think it - it's been too long now and plus there's been too many statements which I think are - are false. I couldn't work in that environment. I also note that the CEO, Ms Jean Illingworth has said in her statement she can't work with me. So therefore, I'd have to say honestly that, no, I do not want to return to that college.

COMMISSIONER: So you're seeking the alternative of compensation?-- I am, your Honour.

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

MR VAUGHAN: Mr Duncan, have you made any attempts to mitigate your losses in terms of seeking alternative employment since your dismissal?-- Yes, because prior to my termination I purchased a - a second property. I had to keep the payments up, so immediately I'd received my termination letter, I applied to go teaching in the Northern Territory and was successful in getting a short three month's contract. I had to wait until the school holidays finished in the Northern Territory which was a gap of some weeks. Then I had to pay my own way up there and - and - and that of my wife and dog and we weren't allowed to take up furniture, or crockery, or cutlery 'cause we flew in, flew out. We had to purchase that up there. The costs of living up there is quite high, you know, as far as buying of food and other items. After that contract terminated after three months, I was then successful getting another three months one in a different place in the Territory. That finished on the 11th of December and since then I've been unemployed as far as contracts go; I'm just doing what they call - what's called a Territory Remote Relief; I sit at home, wait and some remote school give me a


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ring and say, "Come and teach a class", one week, two weeks. Currently at the moment we're on about week 7 of the school term and I've been working three weeks out of the six. So I've had a diminished income. Also, unfortunately, there's been a couple of deaths in my family which necessitated us having to fly back from the Territory which has been expensive; if I'd been living in Cairns, still at Djarragun, of course I wouldn't have all the expenses; I'd simply be in Cairns. I've had to maintain our house in Cairns by getting the lawn mowed instead of me mowing it; you know, it's just a small cost at $50 a fortnight, but it's there. I can't rent the place because I'm doing these small contracts, so therefore the house is sitting idle. So I've been under some sort of financial penalty for being for being terminated at Djarragun.

Okay. So in summary there's compensation for an amount in terms of a period where you weren't employed, that period being relatively short considering your successful attempts to seek a temporary contract? But obviously there were associated expenses in terms of relocating household goods, et cetera?-- Yes, that's correct.

COMMISSIONER: Anything else?

MR VAUGHAN: We - we would obviously need to finalise a - a full schedule of - of costs. Did - was that to be submitted at this stage, or at the end of the proceedings? Sorry - sorry, not costs, sorry, losses.

COMMISSIONER: It - losses, yes. Don’t - don't panic, Mr Pollard.

MR VAUGHAN: Don't worry.

COMMISSIONER: I’m assuming, Mr Pollard, you might tease out a bit more some of those matters in terms of employment-----

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: -----in your cross-examination?

MR POLLARD: Yes, I will be.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, I think if you - they - they will need to be quantified.

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Some of which may be able to be done by oral evidence, but I think it would useful for both the respondent and for the Commission if we could have a - a printed document setting out exactly what it is that you're seeking.

MR VAUGHAN: Okay.


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COMMISSIONER: Okay? Nothing else for the moment?

MR VAUGHAN: Not for the moment, thank you.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. You'll have the right to re-examination after Mr Pollard has finished his cross-examination.


CROSS-EXAMINATION:

MR POLLARD: Thank you, Commissioner. Good morning, Mr Duncan?-- Morning.

Mr Duncan, I'm - I'm going to be asking you, well, quite a number of questions this morning. I'll just make myself ready; I apologise if I'm taking time. Mr Duncan, you say in your statement that your probationary period came to an end on 27 April 2009; how did you deduce that your probationary period came to an end on that date?-- I'm not quite sure of the exact date that you just said, the 29th of April but-----

No, I said 27 April?-- 27 April.

Well, in your statement you were quite specific about-----?-- Okay.

-----27 April; how did you deduce that it was the 27th of April?-- Well, I'd been asked the question by my teachers in the senior secondary, namely a, Jan McGrath and - and Paula Byrne, whether they'd passed their probation. So I went and saw the CEO, Ms Jean Illingworth, and said, "My teachers want to know have they passed their probation". And Jean then said, "Ken, Djarragun is a caring college. We're not in the habit of sacking people. Of course all of your staff, including yourself have passed your probation." So I went back straightaway and told the girls that they'd passed their probation.

Okay?-- You see at that-----

Ms Illingworth is going to give evidence that that conversation never took place; are you aware of that?-- No.

I put it to you that that conversation did not actually take place?-- I say no, it did take place.

Thank you. Mr Duncan, you say that you've never received any warning in relation to your performance of work at Djarragun College; is that correct?-- That is correct.

You have seen the evidence provided by Ms Illingworth and Mr Shankaran saying that you were in fact counselled in relation to your performance. I put it to you that your assertions that you were not counselled is not correct?-- That is incorrect.

Evidence will be adduced later on that those meetings did in fact take place with a witness present, so I put it to you again that those meetings did take place and that your evidence in incorrect?-- That is incorrect.

COMMISSIONER: Are you able to advise who the witness was?

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MR POLLARD: Well, the witnesses were - it wasn't just Ms Illingworth, it was also Mr Shankaran, so it was-----

COMMISSIONER: Mr Shankaran was the witness?

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

MR POLLARD: That's correct, yes.

COMMISSIONER: And do we have any dates for those meetings?

MR POLLARD: There in the evidence of Illingworth and-----


MR POLLARD: -----Shankaran and I was going to get - I - I - look, Commissioner, I'll actually go into more detail in those in a minute because I've actually got-----

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

MR POLLARD: -----specifics, so-----

COMMISSIONER: That's all right.

MR POLLARD: -----yes, there-----

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR POLLARD: -----will be specific dates.

COMMISSIONER: Sure.

MR POLLARD: Mr - Mr Duncan, you - you also assert that you have never seen any performance management process, or guideline, or any policy in that nature at Djarragun College; is that correct?-- Yes, that's correct.

I put it to you that those documents are in fact freely available at the college and that in fact were in your office when Mr Curtis took over in your role after your departure; what do you say to that?-- I never saw them in my office.

They were actually contained on a disc that was part of your software and record keeping in your - well, such as it was, in your role at Djarragun College when you left; so I put it to you that in fact you did have actual possession of those documents?-- I never saw a disc.

Thank you. But that's not the question I asked, is it, whether you saw a disc; I asked you whether you actually had possession of that document?-- I never saw a disc and I never had possession of that document which dealt with performance appraisal.


Thank you. Now, you - you in Exhibit 4, in paragraph 4 of Exhibit 4, you say that Mr Shankaran is incorrect when he says that 10 year - year 12 students had gained their QCE qual and you say, in fact, only one student gained their QCE. Given that you had actually left the college at that time, how did you ascertain that only one had gained it?-- No. No. That's incorrect. Mr Shankaran's statement in paragraph 4 related back to 2008.

Okay?-- And I came in 2009.

So how did you ascertain that only one student had passed the QCE in 2008?-- Because I heard him say that to Ms Illingworth and I also - as I said, at an admin meeting - and I also - that's when I heard it. I also checked with the teacher in charge of the QCE, Linda McKeown and she said Vimal was wrong that there was only one student who actually passed their QCE, and then at an admin meeting later on Jean then said that she would email Vimal and find out exactly what the truth was.

So you say that Ms McKeown was in charge of the QCE?-- Yes, all the record keeping.

COMMISSIONER: And just so that I'm clear, the QCE is?-- Year 12 certificate.

MR POLLARD: Now, Mr Shankaran is going to give evidence that in fact more than one student passed their QCE and, in fact, they may have passed their QCE some point later because of catching up with other subjects that they - that they took subsequently. So I put it to you that more than one student passed their QCE?-- Well, I left at the end of term 2. My conversation with Ms Illingworth, with Linda McKeown, would've been at the end of term 1.

Well, you said - no, I'm sorry. You said before that you overheard. You didn't actually say you had a conversation. So my question to you now is, did you have a conversation - a direct conversation with Ms Illingworth and Mr Shankaran in regard to the QCE or did you overhear a conversation?-- No, I never had a conversation with Mr Shankaran-----

Thank you. So you overheard?-- No, I did not. I had a direct conversation with Ms McKeown-----

No, no. Please-----?-- -----and I had a further conversation-----

COMMISSIONER: No, no. Mr Pollard-----

MR POLLARD: Mr-----

COMMISSIONER: -----he - he did in fact say he overheard a conversation and then had a conversation.

MR POLLARD: Yes, I was going to get to that in a minute.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.


MR POLLARD: So your conversation with - with - was with Ms McEwen but it was not with Ms Illingworth or Mr Shankaran?-- I had a separate conversation with Ms McKeown after I heard in our admin meeting Mr Shankaran saying that we had 10 students pass the QCE in 2008.

Thank you?-- Which I thought was false.

Right. Now, Mr Shankaran is going to give evidence that he discussed with you on a number of occasions complaints that were raised by students in regard to your teaching style. Is it your evidence that those conversations did not take place?-- No, that is correct. No conversation took place between Mr Shankaran and myself as regard my teaching style. All our conversations were entirely jovial, friendly, to do with work and nothing to do with, say, diminished performance or anything like that.

In those conversations that were jovial, friendly, did Mr Shankaran ever suggest alternative ways of being engaged with the students?-- No. Quite often, I helped him with planning for his lessons.

Right?-- So the reverse was true.

Well, I'm - I'm - I put it to you that that's not correct. I put it to you that Mr Shankaran in fact tried to assist you engage your students?-- That is incorrect.

I put it to you that Mr Shankaran and Mr Tekoa Tafea entered your - your classroom on occasion and found students asleep?-- On occasions, Mr Tekoa's come in my classroom and he has said to me, "Mr Ken, your kids are all working well and they're doing - they're happy." Mr Shankaran and I moved freely between each other's classroom and I can't recall any time that students have been asleep when he's walked through.

Can you recall a time when they've been asleep at other times?-- No, I can't.

Mr Shankaran's going to give evidence that on one occasion he entered your classroom and in fact one student was asleep, lying down on a side table with a hat over his head?-- Well, that's incorrect.

COMMISSIONER: So - is that in the evidence - the statement that I've got from Mr Shankaran?

MR POLLARD: It's - it's going to be adduced at - as a response to the evidence put in by Mr Duncan. I'll be seeking leave to adduce further evidence on these points.

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

MR POLLARD: Thank you. Now, in paragraph 5 of Exhibit 4 and paragraph - subparagraph (b) you say, "It is true that we were enrolling students with very low literacy standards and by the


timetable expecting them to study board and board registered subjects." Then you say, "This is why I changed the timetables and classes, to accommodate the needs of our slow learners and also students who hopefully will gain a QCE." Mr Duncan, you say you changed the timetables here but elsewhere in evidence you say that you didn't have control over timetables. So which is the truth? Did you change timetables or did you have no control over timetables?-- Well, both answers are true, so maybe I - I can elaborate. When I came to the college the expectations of the students held by the administration were very high. Unfortunately, the students were not capable of doing the work that was expected of them, so we were following a timetable laid out by the CEO, Ms Illingworth, which only catered for virtually mainstream kids, not kids who were indigenous and struggling with literacy and numeracy. So - also, the idea of the college was to try and get kids to actually go through, get their QCE and go to uni. By having large classes of students studying QCE subjects were actually disadvantaging the more intellectually gifted students that we have. So therefore I sought permission from the administration at a meeting. I went through my ideas of changing our levels from two types of classes to three. So the old level was kids or students doing QCE subjects and students doing one which is registered with QCE at a lower level. They still counted as points towards their QCE.

But in-----?-- I wanted to-----

-----in respect of that, Mr Duncan, all you really did was change the name of those courses, didn't you?-- No, that's incorrect.

Because at the time that you started there was 11, 12, A and B, so A and B being the higher and the lower academic standard, and then Trade, which is basically the VET program. Now, the VET is vocational education and training, is it not? That's what that standards for?-- Mmm.

Okay. So when you started, that was already in place, wasn't it? It was already there. You just changed the name?-- No, it wasn't.

Okay. Well, I put it to you that that's in fact what - exactly what had occurred. You just changed the name. Everything else was exactly the same?-- No.

Okay. Thank you. Now-----

COMMISSIONER: Well, hang on. In fairness to Mr Duncan, he hadn't actually finished answering the question on the timetables. So Mr Duncan, I'll allow you to - to finish. I think we got up that you were changing from - to two types of classes and I think you were going on from there?-- Righto. Okay. Just going back in my mind. So when I started at the college we had two types of subjects being taught to the students. It didn't cater for all needs. I introduced - I introduced a third subject called Trade. In fact, I saw an email today from Ms Illingworth to me complimenting me particularly on the name of the subject called Trade. Right?


So we introduced the third one, which was simply a lower level which did not count towards the QCE but they could put that on their grade 12 certificate. So then - so that policy, I think, is now continued at Djarragun. They're offering three levels at Djarragun and all needs are now being met.

MR POLLARD: Yes, but what about the timetables?-- Well, the timetable had-----

That's just the names of the courses. What about the timetables?-- No, when you're - if you're thinking about 11 and 12 and each one is only doing two subjects, that's four strands. If you then bring a third one in, that means then you're doing six strands in a timetable so the timetable has to change to accommodate the needs of suddenly having six teachers on at once instead of four.

And you say that you - you made that change at what point during the year, during your term?-- I made that change with the permission of the administration, including Ms Illingworth, about halfway through term 1. We introduced Trade 1 and Trade 2.

Okay?-- Trade 1 being year 11 and Trade 2 being year 12.

Now, because of what you say was an introduction of a brand new course or subject you needed to amend the timetables?-- That's correct.

Thank you. Now, in relation to changing those timetables it's a consistent area that you - or consistent view that you hold, is it not, that Ms Illingworth was in fact in charge of the timetables and wouldn't let you do that?-- At the start of the year, Ms Illingworth did the timetable till about halfway through, till we decided to change it, and then we changed it - she allowed me to change it to incorporate the Trade subjects, and then-----

Halfway through, Mr - Mr Duncan, what do you say - halfway through what?-- Term 1, roughly week 5.

Halfway through term 1 in week 5. You say that Ms Illingworth approved you to change the timetables?-- That's correct.

Now, in your evidence you say that towards the end of term 1 where - you were in fact up to draft 10 of Ms Illingworth's timetables though. So how does that match with your assertion that you'd fixed the - you'd introduced new timetables midway through term 1 in week 5. Which is correct?-- Well, it's correct that Ms Illingworth got up to 10 amendments and she must have got up to 10 different drafts by the end of week - well, when - end of week 4. These drafts are coming out almost every second day.

Well, you said in your evidence, in one of your statements - and I'll just try and get to it so that it's - so it's accurate. You say in Exhibit 2 in paragraph 4 subparagraph (b), "After that time, Ms Illingworth produced her timetable and due to clashes between teachers in classroom it was


altered every couple of days by Jean. Until the end of term 1 we had got up to draft 10." Now, you're saying that midway through term 1 in week 5 you'd fixed it. You'd put in a new - a new class regime and a new timetable. You say Ms Illingworth agreed to let you do that. Now, in this evidence you're saying that that's not the case. Now, I put it to you that in fact it was your responsibility of head of secondary school to draft timetables, was it not?-- In a normal secondary mainstream school-----

No, Mr-----?-- Yes.

-----Mr Duncan, I'm asking you, as head of secondary school at Djarragun College, it was your responsibility to draft timetables and have them work properly, was it not?-- No.

Okay. Now - so you're saying it was not your responsibility but you said just before that by week 5 you'd fixed it?-- No, maybe I should elaborate a little here, if you'll just let me, without being so belligerent, but what I am saying is that at the start of the year Ms Illingworth said, "I will do the timetable, Ken. You don't know the kids. You're new here. You just look after senior secondary. I will do the timetable." And that's what she did, and that's what happened.

Well, I put it to you that that's not correct, Mr Duncan, because - and I'll - I'll - I will ask later on in - in - because this is - this is a rather - a new idea. But you're saying that Ms Illingworth was of the view that because of the children and you don't know the children, you couldn't do a timetable, but it's not really an issue about children, is it? It's a timetable. It's about classes and teachers available to teach them, isn't it?-- That's true. That's what a timetable is about.

Did - did you say that to Ms Illingworth at the time?-- No, I didn't.

No. I put it to you that that's in fact a fabrication and it's not the case?-- That's incorrect.

That conversation never - never took place, did it?-- That's incorrect.

Because it makes no sense. You're saying here that by - by week 5 you had introduced this new system and you'd - you'd drafted a timetable that - that met that new system's needs, and now, in another piece of evidence, you say that Ms Illingworth was drafting new timetables. There's no mention of this new - new system you'd put in place?-- No, you're losing me a little bit here. At the start of the term 1, Ms Illingworth was to devise the timetable. The reason it took so long was because of the airline strikes in the Torres Strait. We had trouble getting the boarders back, and also the numbers of the classes weren't determined.

Well, just-----


COMMISSIONER: Well - well - no, Mr Pollard. Can we just please hear from Mr Duncan because, like him, I'm not getting the opportunity to hear a full explanation. I think it would help us all if Mr Duncan could explain the timetable issue from his perspective and then we go back to some questions.

WITNESS: So starting sort of at scratch, at the start of the year, normally, when you go to a high school - and me - I came from Cairns High, you know, 1500 kids - and you - school starts with a timetable, but in this case Djarragun didn't start with a timetable because Ms Illingworth said, "This is the Djarragun way. We simply have to be flexible because there's airline strikes in the Torres Strait. We have to get the students back somehow. We don't know which students are coming. Students determine number of classes. We don't know." Indigenous students are always slow to enrol as well. They don't always turn up on day 1 of the school term. So with these factors in mind, we were - at least the first two weeks, my staff and myself - that was Ms Byrnes, Ms Jan Closier, Vimal Shankaran helped - we simply did our own timetable which meant all we could teach was English and maths. So the kids in the first two weeks had English and they had maths and we also started up VET on one day a week, and that was their school timetable. So between that we had to cover that. Also, there was a couple of lessons of pastoral care for boys and girls.

Mmm?-- In the meantime, of course other segments of the school- the middle school and the primary - had booked out placeslike the library, the art room, the media rooms, so wecouldn't actually book our senior secondary into those rooms,so the menu choices for a timetable for senior secondary wereextremely limited, which also made it a very boring timetablewhich - also complications for QCE, because if you're onlyteaching English and Maths and science, the QCE subjects, it'svery hard or nearly impossible to get an OP score, for onething, to go to university and very difficulty then also toget a full QCE statement unless you incorporate a lot ofsuccessful VET. Also at this time, after Miss Illingworththen introduced the first of her timetables and most of thekids were either doing high level Maths or lower level Maths,high level English and lower level English, I noticed thatstudents were out of the class, students were unhappy withcertain teachers. At this point also this, one of ourteachers had been away sick with appendicitis and notreplaced, so we were down a teacher at the start of the year.I realised that the students were out of the class because Italked to them and they couldn't understand the English, theycouldn't understand the Maths. Our students as a whole don'tlike doing homework; the boarders don't like doing homework,the day kids don't like doing homework, we had to sort ofsomehow get the work done in class, so therefore it seemed tome ideal that we actually introduce a lower level English anda lower level Maths - you could call it financial Maths, youcould call it ESL literacy or something like that, but weended up calling it Trade Maths. So we got permission fromthe admin meeting, I introduced it to the whiteboard soeveryone there, including the primary and middle school headof departments and Mr - Tekoa, everyone else thought it was agood idea, so therefore we started planning to run this extra


course which was called Trade Maths and also the easierEnglish. This necessitated, then, a slight change intimetable. So, where I said in Exhibit 2 paragraph 4(b),"Until at the end of Term 1 we got up to Draft 10", that'sprobably incorrect, it was probably about halfway through, sothat line there is probably incorrect, but we did get up toDraft 10 with Miss Illingworth's timetable. So at the endTerm 1, we then purchased a software program to actually dothe timetable. Miss Illingworth used to do it on Word, whichinvolved copious pieces of paper. And when I did theamendment to her timetable incorporating the Trade classes, ofcourse I had to do the same, copious pieces of paper. Bybuying - spending $3000, which the school did, we bough asoftware program which on a - went on a computer, it also hadthe advantage of giving out class lists so we could see whichstudents were in which class. It only worked, of course, onan IBM computer, so I was given an old laptop from the ITdepartment which ran the computer software. These timetablesthen - class lists were able to be printed out and put inevery classroom, on external notice boards, given to allteachers, and so were the timetables. Then at the start ofTerm 2 we were looking at timetables again, and because we gotup to Draft 10 of Miss Illingworth's I wanted to make sure itwas perfect because the students actually got confused, everyday they weren't sure which draft they were looking at, be itDraft 10 because at the top of each page is Draft 1, Draft 2,et cetera. So we ran my timetable for nearly two weeks, itwas the start of Term 2, I spent most of the holidays gettingthat draft ready, and then somebody had been to seeMiss Illingworth and said that the students were still runningon a flexible timetable, meaning it wasn't a first editiontimetable - we just call them flexible timetables - so overthe weekend she brought out her own timetable. Now, in manyways her timetable mirrored mine, but it was also superior tomine because she had the authority to overwrite the booking ofthe media room with the art teachers, so that our studentsthen could actually have an extra subject in their lessons.So they can now do - and they can now do instead of one day aweek VET, they could do two days a week VET; she split theYear 11 and 12s. This meant smaller classes for the VET.Prior to that we'd been running 11 and 12 combined together inVET classes then, they were getting too large. So with hertimetable, with her authority, she could split the VET classesand split the VET days. She could also overwrite the bookingof the media teachers by the middle school, who were using itjust for teacher release, given noncontact time, which meantour students then could study Maths, English, some could doscience, of course. And I got permission fromMiss Illingworth that those who didn't want to do science,there was an alternative which counted towards their QCE ofRoad Safety, and then they could do media, they could also dothe other VET subjects. So - and I then convertedMiss Illingworth's timetable, put it on - the software packageon the computer, then I could print out class lists and onceagain print out her actual timetable, which I then laminatedas I always did, and displayed it around the school and handedout to students, so that's about the set up of the timetableas it was.

MR POLLARD: Okay. Now, you said just before that in relation


to availability of rooms, that was an issue of concern, didyou not?-- I didn't say rooms. It's really subject choices.If you're in a high school, you expect to do six to eightsubjects, different subjects.

COMMISSIONER: Now, I think you're talking about the mediaroom, are you?

MR POLLARD: Well - and I was also just going to refer to hisstatement again in Exhibit 2. Exhibit 2, paragraph 4subparagraph (c) you say that there was difficulties withaccessing the library, HPE and art rooms for lessons?--That's correct.

And now, of course, you just added then the media room?--Well, that's - that is the art room.

That is the art room?-- Yes.

Okay. Why is it, in your view, that those rooms are notavailable?-- Well, under the first timetable that MissIllingworth brought out and under the amendment I did with theTrade, those rooms were already booked by the other segmentsof the school which was - Djarragun College is three groups,there's primary, middle school and senior secondary. Andbecause we'd taken so long to get our timetable up andrunning, only naturally the other side of the school, theprimary and the middle school, had booked out the library andbooked out the art room, which is also the media room.

Okay?-- So-----

So you're saying that - well, I'll break this down. What partof the school - which of the three - what part of the school,for example, had booked out the art room?-- That was done bymiddle school and that was used as a means of giving teacherrelease, you know, noncontact time for teachers, so that ateacher would take their class there, drop them off and goaway and do some preparation on their own.

What about the HPE sport room?-- Okay. The HPE was bookedout by primary school. The library was booked out by acombination of primary and middle school.

Okay. Well, I put it to you that that's not correct. Thereare 23 available slots in the library each week and they'renot all booked by primary and middle school. There werecertainly slots, many slots available for the senior school.I put it to you that allegation is incorrect?-- Well, that'sincorrect because although there may be slots available in thelibrary, it has to conform or fit the timetable of thesecondary. I mean, if you're doing English at, say, Mondayperiod 4 and you want to do research on a topic and you go tothe library and have a look at their timetable, you find outit's booked out by middle school or primary. But there maywell be several spare slots but they don't fit your Englishperiod.

Okay. I put it to you that the art room was available because


only middle school had access to that because primary schoolhas its own, so there was certainly availability in the artroom. So, I put it to you that your allegation that that wasnot available is incorrect?-- No, that's incorrect.

Thank you. HPE and sport room was available, I put that toyou that that room was available for four days per weekbecause it was only really used one day a week?-- No, it'snot the HPE room. That room was - well, that's sort ofincorrect too because - I can enlarge on that perhaps. At thestart of 2009, it was decided that we would offer CertificateII in Construction, so we talked to the students doingCertificate I and said come back next year - this is what I'mtold because I wasn't there - come back next year, enrol,become boarders and do your Certificate II in Construction.The students came back, that was the boys, and for the girlswho came back they decided of something in - I think it wascalled Day Care. Now when this - these are students now wecall Year 13 because they finished their Year 12, we also callthem TAVE, T-A-V-E. What happened then was they came back,they couldn't do their Construction II, Certificate IIConstruction because you had to be a registered building site,which the school wasn't. So, the kids were there, there wasno course to offer them, so it was decided they'd just hangaround the Certificate I construction tutor and join in hisclasses. The girls went to that HPE room that we're talkingabout and stayed there and used computers and did, supposedly,study toward their child-care certificate course. My point isthat in charge of the timetable was not actually to get theroom which was important, but also to get qualified HPE staffwho could actually take the lessons, and that's what Icouldn't get because the HPE staff, which consisted of twopeople, were fully occupied with primary school and also someVET classes and middle school.

Okay. So - but that's not what you said in your statement,what you said was the rooms just weren't available. So nowyou're saying the rooms may have been available but you didn'thave the staffing?-- Well, yes and no because I - if I can besort of that way. The room for - the HPE room was-----

No, Mr - no, sorry, Mr Duncan, I'm asking a very specificquestion about your statement. In your statement you say thatyou could not access the library, HPE and art rooms forlessons as the rest of the school had fully booked then. Now,I just said to you that they weren't in fact fully booked.

COMMISSIONER: Well, I think in fairness you should repeatwhat's in the statement, "had fully booked these specialistteachers."

MR POLLARD: "Had fully booked these" - yeah, okay, fairenough. But you could still access those rooms?-- Well, if Iwent to the HPE room with a class I'd have to find a teacherto take the HPE, and the trouble was my teachers already hadtheir full teaching load. Also the fact that there were thesehalf a dozen girls sitting in a corner of the room who were ayear - one or two years older than these students who wantedto use the room. So, although the room was only partially


occupied it's not an ideal teaching situation.

Mr Duncan, you said before that in relation to the timetableyou produced for Term 2, you said it was workable and it was -and it was fine and then it was basically overridden byMiss Illingworth?-- It that's correct.

Now, I put it to you that what in fact occurred was that yourtimetable, you had some teachers teaching a completely fullload with absolutely no spare periods and you had otherteachers teaching .5 of a load, even though they werefull-time teachers. Do you agree with that as a statement?--Well, can I elaborate on that before I say yes or no?

Yes, certainly?-- Okay. What you're referring to was anearly - a very early draft that I showed Miss Illingworth forher consideration where I wanted to make not one Trade classfor each year level but two, so in other words, we'd have - inMaths we'd have two high levels - one high level Maths, onemiddle level Maths and two low level Maths, and the same forEnglish. This is where that anomaly came through with thestaffing issue. But also once again it was a very boringtimetable, the kids were only just doing Maths, English andsome VET and some - the VET included the business studies. Sothat idea was scrapped by me and my staff and we neverreferred to that again. We then moved back to the currenttimetable that was running in early Term 2, that wassuperseded by Miss Illingworth's again, and that simply hadone high level Maths, one middle one and one Trade one. So toyour question, yes, that was an early draft proposal thatnever got put into effect. The one that put into effect isthe one that's probably still currently running.

Okay, thank you. Now, who do you believe was in charge of theVET before you started?-- What, at the start of the year whenI started? Miss Illingworth was always the top person incharge. She insisted that she be fully informed of everythingthat happened in VET, particularly student attendance, studentchanges to VET, details like this. So at the start of theyear, Mr Shankaran was in charge of the VET and he was helpedby a learning support worker, I guess, I can call him that,Chris Chigeza who was there in Term 1 for about two weeks.

So with regards to Mr Shankaran, who do you say was in chargeof VET in 2008? Do you say it was Mr Shankaran?-- It'd bethree people, I guess. It'd be Mr Shankaran as the head,underneath him would be this Chris Chigeza and with that alsowould be Linda McKeown.

Okay. Well, I put it to you that that's incorrect; thatMr Simon Cotton was in charge of the VET program prior to youremployment?-- Well, I have no knowledge of that, so you mightbe correct.

So what are you basing your assumption that it wasMr Shankaran who was in charge of the VET program?-- Becausein 2009 he was in charge of it.

Okay. Well, I put it to you that he was never in charge of


the VET program?-- Well, if you wanted to change a VETsubject you had to go and see Mr Shankaran and then - thisthen became word of mouth, so in Term 2 we actually tightenedit up and made it that if you wanted to change a VET subject,you had to actually fill in a form, then take that toMr Shankaran and get it signed.

Who told you that it had to be Mr - had to be approved byShankaran?-- Well, that was Miss Illingworth.

So you say Miss Illingworth advised you verbally or in writingthat Mr Shankaran had to be approve - had to approve thesethings?-- Both ways I believe, by e-mail and byadministration meeting. Mr Shankaran also was in charge ofkeeping tally of which students went to which VET subject, andat the start of the year in Term 1 this was a total shemozzle.We weren't sure which kids were legally - or had signed up todo which VET subjects. Students would tend to go to one theyfancy doing at the moment, they won't always go to the onethey initially picked and that were staffed form. So ifBuilding Construction is doing something interesting, it'squite likely that somebody else would leave their own VETsubject and go and join that one. So we needed up-to-datetime - not a timetable, we needed up-to-date lists of studentsfor each VET subject, and this was very difficult to get fromMr Shankaran at the start of Term 1 and it carried through, tobe quite honest, throughout Term 1 and Term 2.

Thank you. I put it to you that Mr Shankaran was never incharge of VET and that you were never advised that he had toapprove these changes?-- That's incorrect.

Okay. In paragraph 9 of Exhibit 4 you make a group ofstatements regarding issues, so I just want to take youthrough those and put some things to you. I may have alreadydone so, so if I repeat myself I apologise, but I just have tobe careful that I cover everything. I put it to you that inrelation to paragraph 9(a), a meeting was held betweenMr Shankaran and Miss Illingworth and yourself where you weregiven a warning?-- That's incorrect.

In paragraph 9(b), I put it to you that Mr Shankaran waspresent where you were given a verbal warning byMiss Illingworth?-- That's incorrect.

MR VAUGHAN: Commissioner, can we just confirm the - is theclaim that Mr Shankaran was present when there was a writtenwarning given?

MR POLLARD: Yes.

MR VAUGHAN: Thank you.

MR POLLARD: Sorry, no a third warning and then a verbalwarning, no, so not a written warning at that time.

COMMISSIONER: So it is - sorry, so in relation to 9(a), isthe third warning written or verbal?


MR POLLARD: It was a verbal followed up in writing is oursubmission - is our argument, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

MR POLLARD: Mr Duncan, was it standard practice at theDjarragun College for communication with teachers to be by wayof correspondence forwarded into their pigeon holes? Wasthere a pigeon - sorry, I'll start. Was there a pigeon holesystem at the college for communication with teachers?-- No.

There was no pigeon holes that you're aware of?-- Not thatI'm aware of.

Okay, thank you. I put it to you that there are pigeon holesfor each teacher where they receive communication from themanagement of the school. Yes or no?-- No.

No, thank you. You say that Mr Shankaran was never successfulin his attempts to register the subject Marine and Aquatics inparagraph 9(d). I put it to you that that subject was in - ora subject with a similar name was in fact registered up inuntil December 2008. Are you aware of that?-- No. Myunderstanding was, by conversation with Miss McKeown who is incharge of these registrations, that Mr Shankaran had tried onnumerous times and hadn't succeeded in getting his subjectapproved by the board. And also when I did mine for the firsttime and was unsuccessful, Miss Illingworth sent me an e-mailand said, "Ken, I'm sick and tired of all these knock backsfrom the board. Please do it and this time get it correct",which implied to me that she was sick and tired ofMr Shankaran's previous attempts to get it through.

Okay. I put it to you that in fact that subject wasregistered in 2008 and in order to register it in 2009, theonly thing that needed to be updated was the name and thenumber of the - the code number for the subject - for thecourse, I apologise. I put it to you that that was all thatwas required?-- No, that's incorrect.

What did you need to do to register it?-- I went and talkedto Linda McKeown, who's in charge of these registrations, andshe said it had to be a whole new registration. Vimal hadtried doing exactly that and got knock backed.

Okay?-- So everything had to be rewritten: What you weregoing to teach, how you were going to assess it, the number ofhours you do on each one; a total new submission.

Okay. I put it to you that you were asked to attend a meetingwith Miss Illingworth and Mr Shankaran at the end of Term 2holidays or during the Term 2 holidays for a discussion inrelation to your performance, or any meeting in fact?-- No,that's incorrect. Can I elaborate on-----

No. When you say that your contract "clearly shows I amemployed as a teacher with teacher vocations", I put it to youthat your contract actually employs you as head of secondaryschool. Was that in fact your position?-- My position was


head of secondary school but on my contract it said I wasemployed as a teacher with teacher vocation.

So as a head of secondary school, do you believe that that's amanagement position in the school?-- Sir Joe Bjelke-Petersenhad a saying, if you pay peanuts you get monkeys-----

No, Mr Duncan, I'm not interested in what Sir Joe said. I'masking you is a senior secondary - a head of senior secondaryschool a management position? Do you believe it's amanagement position?-- Well, if it was a management positionI would be totally in charge of everything to do with seniorsecondary. I wasn't. I had Mr Shankaran looking after VET,overseeing VET, I couldn't - timetable to use rooms like themedia room, the library, the HPE room, so when you saymanagement you mean you have to be the manager. And thatposition I was not seen as the manager, I was simply seen as asenior teacher in the secondary school and I was only beingpaid as a teacher in the secondary school.

So are you saying that your remuneration did not reflect thehead of secondary school; it only reflected a teacher at acertain level?-- That's correct.

And what level of remuneration were you on?-- Well, mycontract said that I was on Band 2, which is what's regardedas a - in Queensland a senior teacher, plus there was a slightpayment of some 7 000 for additional responsibilities.

Right. And that would be the head of secondary school?--Head of secondary school, plus looking after additional staff,the staff they had on board.

Okay, thank you. When you were interviewed for the positionof head of secondary school, did you make any comments inrelation to your experience and knowledge of VET programs?--Yes. I said I'd worked at Cairns High and I'd been trained inAQTF, which is the underlying factor of VET.

Okay?-- I also said I taught Maths and Science.

And did you say at that time that you would be - that you are- that - sorry, I'll start again. Did you say at that timethat you had the experience to run and implement VETprograms?-- I don't recall, but I certainly do believe inmyself that I can run VET programs, yes.

Okay. So it is certainly reasonable to assume that in thediscussion on VET programs you said - you may have said thatyou could in fact do that, you could run VET programs and youcould implement them?-- Yes, I believe that'd be a truestatement.

Thank you. You, in your statement in response to Mr Curtis,which has been marked Exhibit 5, you say that in paragraph5(b) twice a week you'd print out new class timetables andclass lists. Now, these documents that you would print outand laminate and put up on the board, what was the reason thatyou did this twice a week?-- Okay. So, what we had was a


student enrolment which was very flexible. Normally in a highschool after, say, 13 days absence you would take a child offthe roll. This didn't happen at Djarragun, there was somesort of - whenever they - just simply taken off the roll.Mr Shankaran had the authority to change students' classes, soa student might be in one class in Year 11, maybe doing thehigher level of Maths, go and see Mr Shankaran and he'd changehim back to the middle level Maths. These are changes. Theteachers themselves needed to know exactly which childrenshould be in their room, otherwise it's very hard to maintaincontrol, the students would wander in and sit down and enjoy alesson. So to keep up-to-date, whenever I've receivedinformation from Mr Shankaran, I'd change the timetable, theclass lists and print them out again. Not to hand out to thestudents, the class list, but just to put on the wall and togive to the teachers for their information.

And so by putting it on the wall, who was that - what was thepurpose of putting it up on the wall?-- I'd put it on eachclassroom wall inside, and that was for the studentinformation so they would know which classes they were in, andI's put it outside on the two external notice boards for thebenefit of the students, and for the teachers I actuallyhanded them that. Plus, of course, it was handy for theteachers to look at the wall and see what class was followingthem, so they could do - clean the whiteboard or whatever, soit was to benefit both students and teachers.

Okay. So, when you - when you would come to put a new one up,you'd just take the old one down, put the new one up and thatwould be that?-- That's correct.

Is that correct?-- Yes.

Okay. So in your view, in your - it's your view, then, thatthe students would look for those things and that they'd lookat those class lists and timetables and they'd know where theywere supposed to go and that sort of thing?-- True, yes, butalso they'd also come and ask me verbally as well.

Okay?-- And sometimes I'd have spare copies of the timetableswhich they'd always lose and I'd hand them spare copies.

Okay. Well, I put it to you that that's not actually true, isit? Because the students would rip that stuff off the boardif it was there, wouldn't they?-- No, actually that'sincorrect. Djarragun College has a lot of respect in it.I've never seen this before in an indigenous community. I'vebeen probably 12 years in indigenous communities, in Aurukun,Pormpuraaw, Edward River in Queensland and so on. I've neverseen the amount of respect that indigenous kids had atDjarragun for the staff, for the furniture, for the grounds,like maintaining. Most Aboriginal communities are filthy, yetDjarragun there was no papers lying around or very - virtuallyhardly any papers, and this was a good thing to see.

Okay. Excellent. So, if Mr Curtis was to come in here andgive evidence about - because he's your successor in that role- and if he was to say that the students had no knowledge and


no experience in looking at those things on a daily basis or aweekly basis, you would say that is inaccurate. True?-- Iwould say that.

If he was to say that every time, for the first two months ofhis employment in the role, every time he'd put a timetable upit would be rip down so that they could just walk - and he'dhave to replace it five times a week, you would say that wasinaccurate?-- It all depends, where did he put it?

Well, on the class walls and on the same places you did, the external display boards?-- No. For the external display boards being in a corridor, not a corridor, a covered veranda - uncovered veranda - enclosed veranda, the wind blew along. We had these expensive display boards which couldn't take staples or drawing pins. They just weren't deep enough, so what I did for the display boards externally, I ended up using an electrical staple gun I bought from home and used the large staples. That was the only way to keep the wind away from the timetables. Inside the classrooms normal staples would - would secure them to the walls.

Okay. Mr Duncan, you say that you established a culture of attending classes on time. I put it to you that that's not correct?-- That is incorrect. I got to class on time, my teachers got to class on time and I went and saw the - where the kids brought their before school snacks from at the canteen, and also sought Tekoa and Vimal and we got it changed so that they weren't allowed to buy any hot food - any food or drinks after a certain time to allow them to get to class on time.

You also say that "I established the routine - the routine event which Mr Curtis is enjoying today." I put it to you that that is not correct, that Mr Curtis in fact had to establish that because you established nothing?-- Well, I put it to you that-----

No, you - I'm just asking and it only requires a "yes" or "no." I put it to you that you did not establish the routines that Mr Curtis is enjoying today because he had to establish them himself?-- That's incorrect.

Okay. Now, in your Exhibit 3 response to the statement of Mr Tafea you say you reject the claim that you did not know the students. You then say "Another example was when I turned up at school to meet students returning from Laura on a Sunday, and it was I who then drove a bus to Yarrabah community to return students to their various homes. I did not return until 6.45 p.m." I put it to you that you were actually rostered on to do that by Mr Shankaran. You were required to do it?-- That's incorrect.

You say you attended all sporting events held after the school at Djarragun College as a spectator. I put it to you that whilst you may have attended some sporting events, you never got yourself involved with the students at those events?-- Well, am I allowed to elaborate or just "yes" or "no"?


COMMISSIONER: Well, I think the question is put in a "yes" or "no" answer. Mr Vaughan has the right to re-examination to ask you to clarify any matters, so that might be the opportunity to elaborate at that point?-- That's incorrect.

MR POLLARD: I put it to you that when you attended those - those occasions, the sporting events, that you stood aloof from the students and that you did not at any time engage with any student at those events?-- That's incorrect.

You say that, "As the year 11 boys coordinator I marked the boys role each morning and got to know them quickly." I put it to you that you did nothing else to get to know these students"?-- That's incorrect.

Now, in relation to paragraph 6(a) of your statement in relation to Mr Tafea - response to Mr Tafea, you recall a conversation with Mr Tafea where he walked into your class one day in term 1 "where I had a class of 20 year 11s without support." Is that an unusual circumstance, that you would have 20 students without support?-- Yes.

So it's an unusual circumstance to have 20 children in a classroom learning maths on your own?-- At Djarragun, yes.

Okay. And he remarked, "Well done. Everyone is happy and working well." Now, I put it to you that Mr Tafea was trying to build up your confidence and was saying that as a positive thing. Would you accept that?

COMMISSIONER: Well, I'm not sure that Mr Duncan can comment on what Mr-----

MR POLLARD: Okay. Yes.

COMMISSIONER: -----Mr Tafea's motive actually was.

MR POLLARD: I withdraw the question. Yes, thank you. Now, you say in paragraph 7 of your statement "I dispute the statement that Mr Tafea tried to work with me to improve my management skills." Mr Duncan, did you believe that your management skills needed improvement?-- Yes.

Did you believe that your teaching style and teaching skills needed improvement?-- Yes, of course.

Okay?-- I mean, I'm a teacher, everyone has to improve. You've got to go with change, you can't just sit still.

So if I can just move on then to paragraph 10 of your statement. Now, you've also referred to this earlier on in evidence and - and this is where it actually is - is written down, is "At the start of 2009 our boarding numbers were down to 56 students due to students being unable to fly to Cairns from Torres Strait Islands due to airlines going into liquidation." What airline went into liquidation at that time, Mr Duncan?-- There was two based on Cairns. I'm not sure


of their names.

Okay. Well, I put it to you that that had absolutely no impact because another airline honoured the tickets and flew the students down?-- But not straightaway.

All right. Now, your - I need to understand this - this a little bit - in - in this statement you also make the - there's a sentence that says "In charge of enrolment, Mr Tafea then started enrolling students from indigenous communities who had very low literacy and numeracy skills." Now, I need to understand, Mr Duncan, how did - do you know how Mr - you've made a statement that - that is what he did. Do you know how this occurred?-- Yes.

How - how did it occur?-- Okay. From my experience in Cape York, there's a lot of private schools throughout Australia who are in competition for boarding students.

No. Sorry, Mr Duncan, if I could just stop you there. I'm asking you if you know because you've - you've made a statement here of what Mr Tafea did. How did you know this is what Mr Tafea did?-- Because Ms Illingworth told us at an administration meeting.

So at an administration meeting Ms Illingworth said, "Mr Tafea started enrolling students from indigenous communities who have very low literacy and numeracy skills"?-- No. What she said was, "Tekoa, stop enrolling these students with special education needs. We simply cannot handle them. They're taking too much of our teacher time to look after them."

So the special education needs, was that elaborated at the meeting or have you just decided here that that meant low literacy and numeracy skills?-- That is - special education needs means low literacy and numeracy skills.

Okay. So are you saying that the standard practice or the sort of standard - average student that you get for Djarragun College in any given year actually has high literacy and numeracy skills?-- I'm not aware of the data over the years, but what I saw in 2009 was, we were not getting the top students. They were going to other private boarding schools. In fact, we were offered most of Aurukun to come to us, but luckily I managed to talk Ms Illingworth and Tekoa out of listening to Mr Ian Mackie and taking these students from Aurukun.

Right. So you're saying that - well sorry you - you then refer to poor behaviour in boarding, and you - you refer to a number of issues there. Did you have any direct personal knowledge of these poor behaviours such as smoking drugs and sniffing aerosol?-- No, I just saw the students in my class who were sent home because they'd been caught sniffing aerosol once or twice, smoking - or drugs.

Okay?-- They were warned, then if they didn't improve, they were sent home.


But you're saying that that is a direct result of this airplane strike and Mr Tekoa - Mr Tafea just enrolling anyone?-- No. I think that's a direct correlation to the standard of students we were getting at that time from the indigenous communities.

Okay. Well, I put it to you that the standard of students has not changed, and at that time was no different to any other year?-- Well, in that case, the boarding supervisors weren't being as vigilant as previous years.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Duncan, what was your evidence about Aurukun and - and talking Ms Illingworth out of taking students from Aurukun?-- Oh, what happens, Commissioner, is that Aurukun is close to Weipa, so with the Noel Pearson statement about - quite correctly, that the only way for indigenous students to improve is to get them away from their homes, away from the vices you see around the town. So, in Aurukun, once a student's finished year six, all the better ones, they're vetted very carefully, are sent into Weipa to boarding houses run by the Education Department, Queensland Government. They have something like three houses there where they board these kids, and then on weekends or every fortnight they actually bus them back to Aurukun, which is about an hour and a-quarter in the dry season, and then they fly them back in the wet season. So, that's the pick of the crop, and those students then will continue staying and studying at Weipa High School. So, what you're left with then is kids who have low literacy and numeracy standards who go to Aurukun to year 10, may even start doing some VET in year 11 and 12, but they have nowhere to go, and these are the ones that Mr Mackie who, at the time, was the college principal of Weipa High School, contacted Mr Shankaran and said, "How about if I send you down 15 of these and put them up in our campus - the secondary campus at Wangetti Beach?" And, I've lived and taught in Aurukun, so I knew what those students were like, and I said to these people, "Look, don't do that because they're bringing with them all the bad behaviours they've learned in Aurukun and they'll influence the other people at Wangetti Beach." And, we also transfer kids between Wangetti Beach and Djarragun College-----

Okay. Just to - to stop you there. So, were these kids, they weren't - in the end taken by Djarragun, and they were the ones that you're referring to in terms of having poor behaviour?-- They are.

Okay.

MR POLLARD: Thank you, Mr - Mr Duncan. Now, in relation to your abilities to organise a VET program, it became abundantly clear - sorry, I'll rephrase that question - that - you were sent to a professional development in Brisbane were you not, which was related to the VET program?-- Yes, I was.

And when you were invited to - or, no - when you were advised that you were required to attend that professional development, what was your response?-- In that case I'll go.


Well, I put it to you, Mr Duncan, that you sent a - that you actually told Ms Illingworth, "I decline your offer"?-- Yes. Because the first time when the offer was made to myself and Ms Linda McKeown to attend an initial AQTF PD in Brisbane, and the title of that PD was called, I am the VET coordinator, what do I need in 2009. Now, I looked at that and said, well, I've done exactly that same PD when I was at Cairns High in 2003 it might've been. So, Ms McKeown has a daughter in Brisbane, so she wanted to go very badly, so I said to - by email to Ms Illingworth, that I declined. Ms Illingworth then said to me, "Ken, I think you should go as it will help as a refresher for you." I said, "In that case I accept." So, I went to Brisbane.

Okay. And the reason you - Ms Illingworth asked you to - to attend that PD was because of serious concerns she had about your abilities in - in relation to VET, wasn't it?-- I don't know.

COMMISSIONER: Well, I think you can ask whether she actually expressed that view to Mr Duncan-----

MR POLLARD: Yes, I was - yes, I was trying to.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR POLLARD: I apologise for the clumsy wording. Did she express concerns regarding your abilities as a VET coordinator manager of running that program?-- No.

Okay. And so when she sent you off to that professional development, there was no concern, in your mind, about your - your - your abilities and performance?-- No. I was pleased I had gone, because I got to know Linda McKeown. Both of us went for that day.

Okay. Now, in response to - in - in Exhibit 2, in response to Ms Illingworth's statement, you say that there was no formal three day induction process when you commenced. Now, I put it to you that that's not true. There was, in fact, a three day induction process, wasn't there?-- No.

There was a process conducted by Ms Illingworth and Mr Simon Cotton, wasn't there?-- No. The only induction I saw was for my staff one afternoon a week after school, and that was run by Ms Anne Hopworth I-----

Hopkins?-- Hopkins.

Okay. So you're saying that Mr Cotton and Ms Illingworth did not have any induction process at all at the commencement of your employment at Djarragun College in term one in 2009?-- Not for me, and not for my staff.

Okay. So, when Ms Illingworth comes in and I ask her whether there was, she - she's not telling the truth in that case?-- She'd be incorrect.


And if I was to call Mr Simon Cotton to give evidence in relation to that, and he said that, yes, he attended and in fact the Wangetti campus and Djarragun campus held it together and - with - with Ms Illingworth, you'd say he was incorrect in that as well?-- Well, I've no knowledge of it, put it that way.

Okay?-- I mean no-one even showed me where the toilets were when I went there, so I personally was not inducted.

Okay. I put it to you, if we go to paragraph 4, subparagraph (a) of your statement, you say that "Ms Illingworth said that she would devise a timetable once the boarders had arrived for school and settled down." I put it to you that Djarragun never waits for boarders. They implement a timetable at the start of the year, and that your statement is incorrect.

COMMISSIONER: This is Exhibit 2 paragraph 4(a)?

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Mmm-hmm?-- Well, I base my comment simply on what I heard from Ms Illingworth at the administration meeting.

MR POLLARD: Thank you?-- Until the college settles down, we won't have a timetable.

In relation to paragraph 4, subparagraph (h) - sorry, subparagraph (i) on page 3 of your statement, you say, "It was not possible for year 11 students to complete a certificate one and two in year 12, because the students were not doing enough subject hours per course." I put it to you that this may have been case because of timetables you developed?-- Well, that'd be incorrect.

Okay. And I put it to you that in previous years there was certainly enough hours per course, and the timetables were effective?-- I have - my only knowledge of previous years was that most students from - this is from Linda McKeown - most students in year 11 do not complete their certificate one.

Okay. Now, in paragraph (j) of your statement, you say that, "The number of students involved in marine studies diminished because of other subjects coming on-line." I put it to you that that's not the case. I put it to - Mr Duncan, could you respond to that, I put it to you that, in fact, these other subjects coming on-line had absolutely nothing to do with the reduction in your marine studies class?-- No. At the start of the year we got all the senior secondary together, and each teacher spoke about their different VET subject. Now, marine studies should not be a VET subject.

No, Mr - Mr Duncan, I'm not asking - I'm asking you, in your statement you say that marine studies had 20 students on roll, then you go on to say, "It gradually diminished as other VET subjects come online." Now, I'm saying to you that that statement is incorrect?-- That statement is correct.


Right. I put it to you that the reason your marine studies students declined was that - because you took them fishing; you didn't actually teach them anything of any value, that's the case, isn't it?-- No, that's not the-----

They-----?-- -----case.

-----got bored in your class; didn't they?-- That's incorrect.

Now, Mr Duncan, in - in the time that you had these students in marine studies in term 1 and 2, did any of those students get their radio licence - marine radio licence?-- No, they didn't.

Did any of your students get their outboard - their boat licence?-- No, they didn't.

Now, those are two things that you would - you would assume would be fairly standard things to achieve in a marine studies course, are they not?-- Yes.

And yet, in the first semester basically, term 1 and term 2, none of your students achieved any of those things; did they?-- That's correct.

Okay. I put it to you that that is directly because you never taught them any of those things; did you?-- That's incorrect.

COMMISSIONER: If you're moving on to a new point, Mr Pollard, we might take a break. If-----

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: -----you're still continuing on that one-----

MR POLLARD: Yes. No. No. No. I'll - I'll move on to another point.

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

MR POLLARD: Thank you, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Because we've been going for a little while, we might take 15, 20 minutes.

MR POLLARD: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER: We'll adjourn.

THE COMMISSION ADJOURNED AT 10.52 A.M.



KENNETH WILLIAM DUNCAN, CONTINUING:

CROSS-EXAMINATION:

COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Pollard.

MR POLLARD: Commissioner, before we recommencecross-examination, I just wanted to advise the Commission thatI'll be instructed for the remainder of today by Ms Jade MarieAllgood and for the purposes of the court reporter that'sJ-A-D-E, Marie, M-A-R-I-E, and Allgood, A-L-L-G-O-O-D.


MR POLLARD: Thank you, Commissioner. Mr Duncan, in paragraph(l) of exhibit - sorry, I just need to refresh my memory -Exhibit 2, the same document we were going over before thebreak, paragraph (l) you make some statements there about"submitting programs and students assessments each term toher". Now you then say, "I never received any comments fromher on my work or on what I was teaching." I put it to youthat the reason you never received any comments was becauseyou actually never submitted what Miss Illingworth asked youto submit in relation to the programs and studentsassessments?-- That's incorrect.

Right. Now, in paragraph (m) you comment about "in amainstream secondary school, reports are prepared from themain database" and you then go on to the process of that. "AtDjarragun all I was told was that reports had to be finishedby the end of school term. At Djarragun, our new maindatabase Denbeigh was not ready to process our reports, therefore we had to use methods used in the past. I was also told that even though I was not head of VET, I would have to prepare the VET reports." You were in fact head of the VET program, weren't you?-- No.

Okay. Now, in relation to the preparation of these reports,you say that you went and saw Ms Illingworth and said thatstaff were having troubles with the database. That's notcorrect, is it, you never went and saw Miss Illingworth aboutthat?-- That's incorrect.

Because the database you were using was the one from theprevious year which they'd already used, so there was noproblems with that one, was there?-- There were problems.

Okay. So you then say, "I also said that the 2009 reportcards would be better than the 2008 reports" and you make acomment about an error in the definition of a board subjectand a board registered subject. Now, Mr Duncan, I have with


me some - or a report from semester 2 in 2008. Commissioner,I'd seek leave to show Mr Duncan this report. I've got -given a copy to my friend - and it's not that one, it's thatone.

MR VAUGHAN: Commissioner, we've only just received thesedocuments this morning, so we haven't had an opportunity toreview the documents or Mr Duncan have an opportunity to seethese documents prior to this.

MR POLLARD: Actually - the reason we're submitting them now,Commissioner, is - and the reason we submit that this wouldnot cause any unfairness to the applicant is because Mr Duncanspecifically mentions in his statement about his recollectionsof those statements and a very particular matter in those - inrelation to these reports, so it goes to the fact that he saysthat he is intimately aware of what is in these reports. Now,we did provide them to my friend prior to the commencement oftoday's proceedings, and I accept that that's not a lot oftime in the normal course of events for my friend to receiveinstructions on it, but he'll certainly be able to receiveinstructions prior - at the end of the cross-examination andwe submit that the witness is most certainly - alreadyindicated that he's well aware of these reports and what's inthem.

COMMISSIONER: Well, I'm not certain whether Mr Vaughan isreally entitled to receive instructions at the end of thecross-examination-----

MR POLLARD: No, but - no, true.

COMMISSIONER: -----he's entitled to receive instructionsbefore any cross-examination really. And I'm not exactly surewhether Mr Vaughn's objecting to the tender of these documentsor whether he's just recording his concern.

MR VAUGHAN: Well, I am objecting to the tender of thedocuments, Commissioner, we haven't had an opportunity todiscuss these documents. When it's said that it was given tous before the proceedings this morning, it was given to me asthe proceedings opened and it was passed along this bench, sowe haven't had an opportunity to even review these documents,we object strongly that - they're not accepted.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Pollard, you've had the response statementsfor some time. It is very late in the day for this materialto be raised at - I mean, in fairness, it should've beenraised with the applicant well prior to today's proceedings.

MR POLLARD: Commissioner, I do accept that point. I was onlyprovided with this, to be honest, myself this morning. Theimportance of this is that it goes to the credibility ofMr Duncan's recollections and also his knowledge of thedocumentation, the processes of the college at that time. Wesay that there's no unfairness to the applicant, despite thelate - and we concede it is very late - provision of thismaterial.


COMMISSIONER: Well, I think the better course at this pointis I'm not going to make any ruling on the matter. I think,given the lateness with which you've provide it to theapplicant, at the very least Mr Vaughn should have theopportunity to see it, he should have the opportunity to takeinstructions from his member, which I accept is outside theusual course-----

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: -----of events. And then Mr Vaughn, afteryou've had that opportunity to digest the material and takesome instructions, I'll hear further from you as to yourattitude to the document.

MR POLLARD: Commissioner, if that is the course of actionproposed there is in fact two other documents which meet thatsame criteria-----

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

MR POLLARD: -----which we would obviously be seeking to tenderand which would also then follow the same course.

COMMISSIONER: Yes. I mean, I have reservations about thembeing introduced at this stage.

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: But in trying to be fair to everybody, I'llgive the applicant an opportunity to take some instructions onthe documents and then I'll hear further submissions from you,Mr Vaughn, as to whether they should be admitted or not. So,we'll stand the matter down for a short time.


COMMISSIONER: Mr Vaughn, as there now seems to be threedocuments, I'm not sure whether you've seen the other two, howlong do you think you might need?

MR VAUGHAN: Without having seen the documents it's verydifficult to-----

COMMISSIONER: I see, you haven't even-----

MR VAUGHAN: I haven't seen the other two that have beenreferred to. All I've seen are the ones that have been passedalong the bench at the commencement of these proceedings.Which ones are you referring to?

MR POLLARD: Well, if we take this off the record,Commissioner, we can sort this out and then when it comes backagain-----

COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, look, I'll stand the matterdown and we'll come back at - perhaps, if you could let myAssociate know but we'll give you, you know, as much time as


you need but we'll come back and check, say, in 15 minutes orso.


MR VAUGHN: Sure, thank you.

COMMISSIONER: Okay, we'll adjourn.

THE COMMISSION ADJOURNED AT 11.26 A.M.


COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Mr Pollard?

MR POLLARD: Commissioner, after reviewing the documentationagain and discussions with my friend and after takinginstructions, we've decided that we're not going to seek torely upon those documents.

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

KENNETH WILLIAM DUNCAN, CONTINUING:

CROSS-EXAMINATION:

MR POLLARD: Okay. Mr Duncan - I'm sorry, bear with me. Inparagraph (o) of Exhibit 2, you say that "prior to reporting Itried my best to get all secondary students photographed".How did you go about trying to do that?-- I went down to thesenior assembly and said, "Anyone who hasn't had a photograph,please wait outside and give me your names." I also got alist of names from the person who tooks the - takes thephotograph, a man by the name of Luida - Luido Coopers, and hegave me a list of photos of - missing from the database. So,I went and tried to find those kids and of course some of themweren't at school.

Okay. They were only - they weren't at school on that day youwent looking for them, or they were never at school again?--No, they weren't there on the days that I went looking forthem.

Okay. Who assisted you with the production of the end of term


reports - end of semester reports, I apologise?-- The wholeof secondary staff, except in the case of two teachers whowere given leave by Miss Illingworth to go on holidays.

Okay. And as head of secondary school it was yourresponsibility, wasn't it, the production of these reports?--Yes.

Okay. The quality of the reports was really up to you tomonitor and to manage?-- Yes.

Thank you. Now, if I could show the witness a report - andI'll refer to a couple, not many, Commissioner; and for thepurposes of the record, I'm going to refer at the start torecord number - report number 101 from Bundle 1.

COMMISSIONER: So, do I have these particular bundles as well?Am I able to easily find the report that you're-----

MR POLLARD: They were provided to you in order, ascendingorder, Commissioner-----

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

MR POLLARD: With Bundle 1 on the top and perhaps-----

COMMISSIONER: So - and the student number was?

MR POLLARD: No, not student number. Just the number we'rereferencing is Number 101. Perhaps it may assist if I cantell you the initials, HT.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR POLLARD: That matches what you have, Commissioner?

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR POLLARD: Thank you. Mr Duncan, if you could please lookat that report, there are a number of things in that report.Are you content that that report is of a suitable standard toshow to a parent of a student?-- Yes, I am.

You are content that there is on the front page no photograph,and you've already given evidence that you couldn't find thatstudent. But on the next page is another cover page. Andthen if you turn the next page, there's a blank page, and thenyou turn another page and then it's stapled in the top righthand corner, there's no - so, what part of that report do youbelieve is suitable for a parent of a student at the school tosee?-- Okay. I believe a parent of a student at our schoolshould be able to see what their student is doing in tworeporting formats, which is what this report card is made up.It's made of two different reporting formats. One is theiracademic subjects, that's the first one here, and the secondone is the one inside that you referred to as a second coverpage, which is our VET report card. Both of these for theparents will show them what their child is doing at school.


So you're saying that the format itself is dictated by thecourse that the student is taking?-- Would you mindexplaining that a bit further?

Well, you're saying that there's two - basically you're sayingthat there's two reports in one there; one report for theiracademic and one report for their VET subjects?-- Yes, fromtwo different databases.

Okay. So what about all the two blank pages?-- Two differentdatabases and we couldn't get the two databases to talk toeach other, therefore we couldn't get rid of the blank pages.

Well, I put it to you that that's not correct; that in fact itis not acceptable to send a report to a parent in that format.And I put it to you - well, I'll let you answer that onefirst?-- Okay. These report cards are meant to show thechildren's achievement, the students' achievement.

But they're also supposed to reflect the school, aren'tthey?-- They are supposed to reflect - well, anythingpublished by a school is a reflection on the school so-----

That's right. And that's a mess, isn't it?-- I don'tconsider it a mess. I think it's the best that we could dounder the circumstances.

But it's never happened before. We submit or we - I put it toyou that this is the first time that reports have gone out inthis format?-- I've no idea what happened in previous years.

Okay, thank you. So, if I could also direct your attention totwo other reports now - and, Commissioner, for your purposesI'm referring to Bundle 2, it's No 205 and the initials are AMand then Bundle 4, No 421, again the initials-----

COMMISSIONER: Where are the numbers written that you'rereferring to?

MR POLLARD: There should be - I provided your Associate witha list.

COMMISSIONER: I see, I haven't seen that. So, sorry, whatwas the first number?

MR POLLARD: The number was 205.


MR POLLARD: And the second number was 421. Do you havethose, Commissioner?

COMMISSIONER: I do.

MR POLLARD: Thank you. Now, Mr Duncan, before you you havetwo different reports for the same student?-- Yes.


How can you explain those two different reports for the samestudent?-- This one here is called - VET on the front.

Yes?-- And the other one here is called Senior.

Thank you. Now, your evidence before was that the reasonthere's blank pages was because the two databases wouldn'ttalk to one another?-- That's correct.

Have a look at the one labelled VET, could you please explainhow there are blank pages in that one, considering it onlycame from the one database?-- It came from the one database,that's true. But at the time we were doing the report cards,we didn't have the IT people who were competent there toassist, therefore we only had one IT person and he was - didhis best, but we couldn't do the formatting to get it writtenon these pages as you see it. The databases are not somethingvery simple, they're quite complicated.

But they'd been done in previous years, our evidence will bethat they've been done in previous years?-- True, by expertpeople who are currently on leave at that time.

Is it an expert issue to photocopy pages, Mr Duncan?-- No,anyone can photocopy.

So, if you were having those difficulties as - and we -assuming that this is an accurate reflection, of course, ifyou were having those duties - difficulties and given yourprofessional responsibility to provide reports that accuratelyreflect a professional education, could you not havephotocopied those pages and then assembled them in the correctformat?-- Yes, I could've.

But you didn't?-- No, I didn't.

Right. And this was a theme throughout - well, for virtuallyevery student in Years 11 and 12, wasn't it? You couldn't bebothered doing it?-- Not that I couldn't be bothered, that's- just that using the database this was the best we could do.

Well, clearly it wasn't because when I just said, could youhave photocopied these things and produced them in that way,assuming your allegation is correct, could this have beenresolved, you said yes. But it wasn't, so it wasn't the bestyou could do?-- Well, I never considered to use thephotocopier.

Right?-- And no-one advised me to consider to use thephotocopier.

So, you never considered making any effort to make these lookmore professional than what they actually do?-- Well, no. Iconsidered that this gave a reasonable explanation of howtheir child - the student, their child - did in VET. And thisone has an error of course inside it, with the wrong sportsacademy photo, but this one also gave - and on this second onehere, if you'll notice, which is called Senior, there's alsosome blank boxes there, right, and these are the boxes that we


couldn't get rid of on the database because not all studentsdo sport, not all do recreation, not all do marine and aquaticpractices.

And how do you explain the fact that one of the - that thewrong photo made it on the inside of that report?-- An act ofGod.

Well, no, it's just carelessness, isn't it?-- Carelessness?

An act of God isn't carelessness. Now, if we were to gothrough these reports, and I don't intend to for eachindividual one, but would you be - sorry, let me rephrasethat. Would you accept that similar errors and similar awfulformatting consistently reappear throughout every single oneof these reports?-- I accept that those reports on the tablein front of you would've been assembled in a similar manner tothe ones in front of me.

And they all contain the same formatting problems, and thereare reports in there that also contain the wrong photos ofstudents. Are you prepared to concede that?-- Yes, I'llconcede that.

Thank you, I am grateful because that means I don't have to gothrough all of them. Now, as the head of senior school thisdoesn't reflect well on you, does it?-- I don't think itreflects well on everyone.

Well, you were the one that put them together, Mr Duncan, youwere the one who was responsible for ensuring that they werean acceptable standard so-----?-- I wasn't-----

-----it doesn't reflect well on you, does it?-- I wasn'tresponsible for not getting the Denbeigh system up-to-date andrunning, I was not responsible for sending the IT people onholidays.

Mr Duncan, it was already accepted that the Denbeigh systemwasn't up and running and so therefore the old system wasgoing to be maintained, so this is the system that had been inplace for some years at Djarragun College. Now, that'salready correct to your knowledge because you said thatearlier, isn't it?-- But there's one other factor that youhaven't mentioned and that is this VET report was a database,a separate database devised by an IT guy called Ben, who leftat the end of Term 1 and no-one else could handle hisdatabase, it was extremely complicated.

Yes. But as I said earlier and as you conceded earlier, youmade no effort to correct that?-- Yes, we tried to contactBen in Toowoomba. Miss Illingworth offered to pay him to workon the database but he was busy with his new job.

Now - but - but that's all very well and good, but you were told, weren't you, about the process of double - printing on double pages and ensuring that there's no blank pages in the reports?-- No, I wasn't.


So you're saying that you were never told that there could be no blank pages on any report?-- That's correct.

Okay. Well, I put it to you that that's a lie?-- That's incorrect.

Now, with regard to these reports, it's clear - and - and you conceded before that you didn't actually extend yourself to - to - to make them of an acceptable standard-----

COMMISSIONER: No, what he said - he didn't photocopy them.

MR POLLARD: Yes. Well, he didn't even consider any alternatives. Yes. And - and that would've been extending yourself to - to try and resolve the problem, wouldn't it, trying to - I mean, you - you said this is not an acceptable standard, didn't you?-- No, I didn't. I said to an indigenous parent this would show them that their child has been to school and has a report.

Okay. So to a white parent, what would it say?-- To a white parent it would say the same thing, but also-----

But why did you make the - why did you make-----?-- I made the difference because I think it's important to note that these report cards are going home not just to people in town but to communities and many of the parents can not read or write.

But why does it make a difference-----?-- They would like to see-----

-----as to whether or not they're of an acceptable standard?-- Well, to people all over the world this would be an acceptable standard. There's their certificates. True, it's not printed, so somehow or other this was not on a - I don't know how you could've done this any way different. There's only one extra certificate there. But the point is, they are acceptable. This one-----

To you they're acceptable?-- -----their parents would like to see a photo because they go by photos but we couldn't get a - physically get a photo taken. Besides the fact that the man was - Ludo had given me the list of students to have photos taken. I'd been to see the students. Also, we were missing, strangely enough, a battery charger which ran the special camera and, therefore, there was difficulty taking photos at all anyway, till we bought a new battery charger which up - up to the end of term 2 hadn't arrived.

Okay. Well, I put it to you that that's not correct. Mr Duncan, are you - yes or no? If I say I put it to you that something - and in this case, I'll say I put it to you that's not correct - I do actually need a response?-- Okay. Well, I'm not quite sure how I can answer this. What I'm saying is true and you're saying that's incorrect.

Okay. You see, Mr Duncan, this - this - the nature of these reports, you say it's only the information which is important


and how it's presented is not, aren't you?-- I haven't said that.

But you just did before and when - when you said that, you know, "Yeah, it's blank and everything but it gives them the information" - right? Do you remember saying words along those lines?-- Yes, I did.

Okay. So you're saying - by - by saying that, you're saying that how it looks is not important. It's the information it contains which is important?-- No, I'm not saying that.

Right. So therefore you'd say that the way these look is important?-- Yes.

Okay. And you would say then that the way you prepared them was not of a professional standard?-- No, I disagree.

Okay. That's fine. Mr Duncan, do you recall being advised by Ms Illingworth that the reports should be provided to her in an unsealed envelope so she could review a sample of them?-- No, that was never said to me.

So what you did was you put these reports as they stand right here in a sealed envelope to be sent to the parents of the students?-- Yes. What I was given was blank paper with a special - a brand of paper. I was given a box of envelopes and I was given a box of sticky labels and all I'd do was do the report, sign it, put it in the envelope, put the sticky label on, put it back in the - seal it, put it back in the box and take it down the office. That was my steps.

And you were content to put your signature on it?-- Yes, I was.

The careless nature of these reports and how they've been put together actually reflects how you took your role at Djarragun College in total, doesn't it, just with complete carelessness?-- That's incorrect.

Total lack of interest?-- That is incorrect.

Presenting a report on a student like this, with absolutely no care taken in its preparation, really indicates a contempt for that student, doesn't it?-- That's incorrect.

It indicates a contempt for the - the school, doesn't it?-- That is incorrect. See, what you have to understand is high schools take reporting very seriously-----

Not you?-- I'm talking about high schools are taking reporting very seriously and what happens is the signature of the principal, the CEO, is always the last thing to go on the report, but in this case, these reports were given to me with the signature already on it.

Yes?-- So there's no back-up system at Djarragun College. There's no sort of supervision.


Well, I submit to you that the back-up system was in fact the - the requirement for you to provide them in an open envelope so Ms Illingworth could review them?-- But if that was the case, then why were - the 2008 reports had errors on the front page?

So you say. Now, what I'm going to do, Mr Duncan, now is go through the rest of your statement and just put some matters to you that, again, I may have done in the past, but just for thoroughness I - I must do again. The induction process in paragraph 5 of Exhibit 2, you say there was no induction process whatsoever. I put it to you that there was an induction process at the commencement of year 2009?-- There was, but one afternoon a week by Ms Anne Hopkins.

Right. I put it to you that there was a two or three day induction process conducted by Ms Illingworth and Mr Simon Cotton?-- True, but that started in term 3. I left in term 2.

I put it to you that that process is actually conducted once every six months and so therefore it was conducted at the commencement of term 1 and also at the commencement of term 3?-- I was not aware of it.

Okay.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Pollard, could I just interrupt for a moment? I appreciate what you're doing and I don't have a difficulty with that. My concern is, if you're going to elicit from later witnesses more specific information or if they've already provided it in their statements, then it's important that that specific information is-----

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: -----put to Mr Duncan.

MR POLLARD: Yes. In relation to the - the inductions, evidence will be presented later, Mr Duncan, that Ms Illingworth and Mr Cotton jointly conducted inductions at the commencement of 2009 over a two day or three day period?-- Yeah, but what I say in my statement is that I was never given a three day induction.

So you say that an induction may have taken place but you were not invited or you did not attend?-- I'm saying I have no knowledge of it.

Okay, thank you. The evidence that will be produced is that you were actually present at that induction.

COMMISSIONER: Well, I think then for - it's important if you are more specific. Where did it occur, when did it occur, what were the issues that were addressed. It might be that you're talking about different things. I don't know, but I - it's going to be really unfortunate if you elicit that evidence-----


MR POLLARD: Try and adduce something-----

COMMISSIONER: -----and then Mr Duncan - because once he's finished, he's finished.

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR POLLARD: Okay. Were you attending - were you at the college the - prior to the commencement of the term?-- I attended the college on a Wednesday prior to the commencement of term, to simply bring my paraphernalia in, and I walked in on a admin meeting, and everyone said, "Oh, you're here and please sit down." Then I met the admin people. I was not told that admin meeting was on. That was a Wednesday. I think I was there maybe one more day. Whatever we were required to be, there was something on the contract.

Okay. Mr Duncan, there's going to be evidence produced that on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday in the week before the commencement of term there was a series of meetings conducted which you were invited, and at those meetings issues regarding the management of the college, the college procedures and policies, were discussed and issues such as bullying were addressed?-- I have no recollection of those.

You have no recollection, okay. You've seen the evidence of Mr Shankaran and Ms Illingworth where they specified dates and times of meetings conducted with you in relation to your performance. Do you maintain that those meetings never took place?-- Well, as with this three day induction, I would like you to produce some sort of attendance record, or in the case of these meetings with Mr Shankaran and Ms Illingworth, I'd like some sort of documentation table, because I disagree that they ever took place.

Okay, thank you. That was actually the answer I was after. Mr Duncan, I'd like to show you a document, if I may? This was - this document has been provided to my friend prior to today's proceedings, Commissioner. It's a report produced by SVA Consulting. Now, Commissioner, when Ms Illingworth gives evidence tomorrow we'll be giving information on how this report was conducted, and who paid for it, and that sort of thing. Is it okay with you if I lead Mr Duncan, give him the opportunity to - to discuss this and-----

COMMISSIONER: Well, I suppose we should - well, subject to what Mr Vaughan might have to say.

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: I mean it can't be evidence at this point. It can only be marked for identification.

MR POLLARD: That's correct.


COMMISSIONER: And I'm not certain whether Mr Duncan is aware of it, or its - or of its contents.

MR VAUGHAN: Commissioner, we did receive this document, I believe, approximately a week ago. We're not quite clear of its relevance to the matter, but we're happy to hear some further explanation.

WITNESS: Are we getting confused, because about a week ago we got sent the secondary senior handbook, which is different to this one.

MR VAUGHAN: Is this-----

COMMISSIONER: I'm just very concerned that there seems to be - be a lot of documents being disclosed after the discovery process had-----

MR VAUGHAN: Is this the PowerPoint-----

COMMISSIONER: -----concluded.

MR POLLARD: Yes. Commissioner, if I could respond to that concern. It is obviously a valid concern, and it was - it was never intended to rely upon these documents, or even - or even it was never our consideration that they would be referred to in anyway by anybody. The - the concern from my client was that allegations had been raised in the - in the evidence in response regarding the effectiveness of the college, the results and the - of the students, and also the - the - where the students came from, and so on.

That hadn't been raised before and - as that was being given as a reason for the poor performance of Mr Duncan. Now, in response of that, or - or in - in response, our client was concerned that they be given an opportunity to provide evidence which contradicted that view. Now, it was never a consideration, and it was never a thought that prior to these replies, that Djarragun College results and its student make up was going to be an issue, but it subsequently turned out, during the evidence in reply. Not so much the evidence-in-chief, but in the evidence in reply, it was certainly made an issue.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Vaughan?

MR VAUGHAN: Commissioner, our statements in reply are simply statements in reply to the statements provided by the - the respondents. We haven't introduced anything new in those statements, and we do feel that production of documents, at this late stage, is unreasonable.

COMMISSIONER: So, what do you say this document that you've - proposing to take Mr Duncan through actually relates to, Mr Pollard?

MR POLLARD: It - it relates to his evidence that - in relation to the literacy levels of students coming into the school,


particularly his evidence which was only raised today in relation to Aurukun, and the evidence which was in the statement of reply in relation to the - Tekoa Tafea - sorry Tafea Tekoa's efforts to recruit students after apparent liquidation of airlines.

It also - in his response, it is clear, through the evidence, that he's - he's made a number of statements that it was a - the school was - was uncoordinated. The activities of teachers were - were being - were being run on an ad hoc basis, and the - the outcome for students was very poor, and we seek to admit evidence that counters that view.

MR VAUGHAN: Commissioner, it's also noted, as well, that the report was actually produced on the - the date that Mr Duncan's final probation meeting was conducted in his absence, so he was - wasn't part of the - the process in that regard. Furthermore, I'm not really sure quite how it establishes whether or not Mr Duncan's dismissal was harsh, unjust or unreasonable.

COMMISSIONER: Yes. Without having a look at the document that Mr Pollard's handed up, I really don't know how it bears on the issues that he says it's intended to address. We also don't have the authors of the report. I don't know - and as you say - I mean, I - I appreciate you might be eliciting evidence about the reason the report was done later. I - I just don't - I - I just have some concerns about how it's really meant to assist, Mr Pollard.

MR POLLARD: Commissioner, I - I take that point and - and I also accept that these - the documents that I have been attempting to adduce this morning have been produced very late in the day and were not part of the discovery process. So I accept that - that - that problem. Commissioner, given - given that statement, I'm - I'm prepared not to - not to try and enter it at this point.

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

MR POLLARD: Earlier on, Mr Duncan, you gave evidence that there was no pigeon holes for - for the - the staff?-- Yes.

There was no system of pigeon holes. Mr Duncan, I put it to you that there is actually a pigeon hole for the senior school in the administration centre?-- Yes, that is correct.

There - there is a pigeon hole. Okay?-- There's one pigeon hole for senior secondary.

And it was standard practice that one of the teachers, or indeed yourself, would go to that - that area each day and would get the mail for the secondary school and take it down to your office?-- There was no set procedures. If I was in the office I'd check that pigeon hole. You see, pigeon holes have to do with staff turning up - most schools have a pigeon hole for each staff member. Staff turn up, sign a book of attendance, check their pigeon holes, go and do their pre-day lessons-----


Okay?-- -----preparation.

So in the - regard to Djarragun College, there was a pigeon hole for secondary school?-- There was one set aside in the main office just for secondary-----

Right?-- -----not for individual teachers.

And on a regular basis, whilst there was no formal process - on a regular basis, a teacher or yourself would check that pigeon hole, take the mail down to your office and put it on your desk?-- That's correct.

And you would then go through that and identify mail for particular teachers and hand that to them?-- Yes, that's correct.

And you would identify mail addressed to yourself?-- Yes, that's correct.

Okay. And so a written warning that was produced and put in an envelope and placed in that secondary school pigeon hole would've made its way to you?-- Well, I never saw it.

Did you often have problems with mail not being provided to you?-- I wasn't aware of any not reaching me.

Okay. Just this one?-- Well, I don't know if it was ever put in there. It may not have been put in there.

Evidence will be produced from Mr Shankaran that he in fact put a white sealed envelope with your name on it into that pigeon hole for your recollection.

MR VAUGHAN: Commissioner-----

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR VAUGHAN: -----that's not in Mr Shankaran's statement at all, so I'm not sure how that evidence is going to be produced.

COMMISSIONER: I think that's - that's a valid issue and I think that's an issue we're going to need to have a conversation about fairly shortly because there seems to be quite a deal of evidence which Mr Pollard is proposing to call in-chief in addition to the statements which have been produced.

MR POLLARD: Yes. I expect so.

COMMISSIONER: Well, you can seek leave. Whether you're given-----

MR POLLARD: Yes.


COMMISSIONER: -----leave is, I think, a matter that we need to have that discussion about.

MR POLLARD: And that's - that's what I'll be - I'll be doing, Commissioner, and I daresay we'll - we'll have that discussion very shortly. Now, in relation to your earnings since you finished work at Djarragun College, you say that you had a three month contract in the Northern Territory at the end of the holidays. What was your earnings for that three month contract per week?-- Teachers get paid fortnightly.

Okay. Fortnightly?-- I'm guessing about $1900 a fortnight net.

Net. Okay. And what about your - the three month contract which took you up until the end of December 2009? How much did you earn per fortnight there?-- Slightly more; 20,050, something like that.

What, was that for the entire three month period or-----?-- No, no. Sorry, per fortnight.

Yes?-- Just over $2,000 per fortnight.

Was that net or gross?-- Net.

When you say you've worked three weeks out of six in 2010, Mr Duncan, how much do you say you've been earning - how much - well, sorry. How much do you think you've earnt in that three weeks?-- Well, the fortnightly net would be 2200 and I've worked - we've had three pays, if you like, six weeks. So out of 6,600 I've earned 3,300 net.

Okay?-- But bearing in mind I didn't get paid for six weeks over Christmas holidays, plus I didn't get paid for the other holidays.

Yes. No, no, no, that's - I accept that. All right. Commissioner, I have no further questions.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Vaughan.

MR VAUGHAN: Thank you. Just a few points of clarification if I may.

RE-EXAMINATION:

MR VAUGHAN: Mr Duncan, just to provide some further clarification around the marine studies - I think you were stopped at some point throughout the questioning and there was some issues raised in respect of the students and going fishing all the time and that you weren't actually teaching them that subject. Would you like to-----?-- Yeah, the-----


-----respond to that?-- -----point that Mr Pollard raised - I think if I address that first - was that I started with 20 students and then he states that due to my bad teaching or kids getting bored they left my marine studies and went to other subjects. So I'd like to clarify that a little if I may. I did start with 20 students but at the time the subjects they were offered - and for some unknown reason, marine education was put in as a VET subject. It shouldn't be. It's a board subject, a QCE subject. It should be taught on a timetable along with the ECL English and the maths. It shouldn't be on a VET day. Okay. So it's put on the - as a VET subject incorrectly, but bearing in mind that's happened, the reason as - as the school attracted publicity, favourable publicity, people came to school and offered to put on different courses - different VET courses for us, something to do with, say, trees, horticulture - not - I'm trying to get the name that means trees - anyway, it was the growing and looking after trees and becoming a cert 4 course. Then there was the nursing - two courses there, assistant in nursing and the AIN nursing, and these led to certificate 3 and 4 courses, and when you're a student, if you think of your community somewhere in the Cape, if you are a nurse or a nurse's aid you will have employment. So of course, they're valid courses. So for that reason, some of the better students who picked marine education, at my instigation, actually changed courses and went to these other ones. We had a plethora of different courses on but only a certain number of high quality students and it was better for them to think that Djarragun College promotes employment and so that's why I promoted the idea of leaving marine education and going that way. That left us then with a core of kids and then with the last timetable change Ms Illingworth then split year 11 from - separate to year 12 to do that. So instead of me having, say, 12 students left doing marine education made up of year 11 and 12, I cut that in half, so then I only had six students in year 11 doing marine ed and six, say, in year 12 doing marine ed, which wasn't a viable number by any means.

Thank you?-- Then the other points raised by Mr Pollard wasthat - marine radio. Now, I initiated that course, we gotonline and we started doing the course. When I left at theend of Term 2 we hadn't finished it. I got extensions twicefor the kids to allow them to extend, to finish that course.The reason I needed the extensions was mainly because of theirabsenteeism, they weren't there to do the course. As far asthe boat licence, boat licence is normally taught over oneterm and it's taught one whole day a week for one term.Djarragun College doesn't even have a boat, so that of coursemade it very difficult to do boating, so I left that untilnext - until 2010, which would be this year, because I waswriting a submission to get funding from the Gaming Commissionto buy boats. And also Ms Illingworth and Mr Cotton had puttogether a submission and got funding to actually go and pickup second-hand aluminium boats from Yarrabah and bring themback to school and, as part of VET courses, actually have theboys refurbish, and either sell them or use them ourselves asboats to train our future students in, so it was all sort ofin hand. But my question was when I said, "Did anyone get amarine licence?" The answer was no. "Did anyone get a radio


licence?" The answer is still no.

Thank you. Just moving on to some matters surrounding yourprobationary period, you received a letter from the collegewhich confirmed you as a permanent employee-----?-- Yes.

-----of the college? Who did you request that letter from?--I requested it by e-mail to Ms Illingworth and she replied bye-mail that, "Certainly, Ken, I'll get it written and I'll askJune to do it." June at the time was her personal assistant,I think I could call her that. She said, "Unfortunately Juneis away sick but I'll give her a ring." After a week I neverheard anything, so I asked her again by e-mail and she said,"I'll ring June immediately and we'll get the letterpublished." Then in due course, in the pigeon hole of thesenior secondary I found this envelope with this letter sayingthat I was a permanent and full-time employee of DjarragunCollege.

Thank you. Just to provide some further clarification aroundthe fact that it's purported that you were the head of VET, Ithink you were responding to that by saying you weren't, canyou explain how those responsibilities came to be placed uponyou or claimed to have been placed upon you?-- I think it wasa case that it needed straightening out obviously, that's whyit was put on me. I think the paperwork behind VET wastotally missing. I think the people running VET at the timewere probably, in the true sense of the word, ignorant of theidea of VET and the idea of having evidence that the studentshave achieved things. By that I mean if you were doingbuilding construction, you had a digital camera and every timethey mixed a barrow of concrete, you'd take a photograph toprove that so and so can mix concrete, and the same forbuilding joins and so on. And the same has to apply of coursefor the other VET subjects. Some were done extremely well,such as hospitality was done extremely well, then of coursework education was done well. But other ones where some ofthe VET instructors had minimum education, such as furnishingand metal fabrication or engineering were done very poorly.

Thank you. Moving on to the issues around the reports, yousaid that there were problems with the database that was usedto produce the reports. Did you raise those concerns with theprincipal?-- Yes. And Jean, who is the sole person in chargeof Djarragun, simply made a gesture like, you know, fix it,you know, sort it out. At all times, my relationship withMiss Illingworth has been most cordial, I have no hesitationin going and talking to her because she is my superior. So,when I went to her on that - during the last week and said,"Look, we're not going to make the Wednesday deadline, mystaff's going to - my staff and myself are going to work inthe holiday time, it might even take us to Friday." But itturns out that we finished these reports on Thursday. Thetrouble with the database is - I was trying to say is the -Ben, who left us, was extremely intelligent and knew hisdatabases and he made up a special database of VET whichinvolved many different layers, which the average ITtechnician at Djarragun College, including myself just as ateacher who's taught database is - couldn't unravel. So whenit came to changing the databases, the problem we had with the


VET one, we brought back these poor kids called TAVE to doCertificate II. They couldn't be on this database becausethey've already done Year 12 and got the Year 12 certificate,so what we had to do was make up a special little report cardjust for the Year 13s, which showed their photograph and justrecorded their achievement, so the parents back in thecommunities can see a picture of their child, look inside andsee just a college statement that they have done some work atthe farm, building things and so on, so that's the way wemanaged that. That was the TAVE, or the Year 13 report card.With the other report cards, we just couldn't work out the wayof doing the formatting to get it back-to-back on the pages.And also because we were using an old database, which was thisone, the Senior one, trying to get this one to talk to the newVET one that was made up. And don't forget, also, we changedthe VET subjects, we had to change the subjects in thedatabase; and also in the Senior one, we also changed somesubjects there.

Mmm?-- What we - one good thing we did for the Senior one waschange the mistake that was made right at the start of it,there's a little page here somewhere which talks aboutachievements, and this was actually back-to-front in 2008.The description here where it talks about, on this singlepage, explanation of levels of achievement, what went out toall the parents, if they could read, was here, it says"Vocational Education Certificate courses, these courses willattract points towards a QCE." This is in 2009. But in 2008it said the reverse. So if the parents had read that theywould say, "My kids are doing VET and they won't get anypoints towards their QCE" which wrong, so it was reversed withthe nonregistered subjects. So we fixed that up, we could dothat. Then of course with the Year 12 subjects, which wasthis one, again the years - on their QCE they list things suchas the sports and other special subjects, which not allstudents did, but for the database we had to leave that in sosome students could get their achievements recorded. But forones who didn't do it, who didn't do marine education, forinstance, that had to be on the Senior one and not on the VETone. They had to say "not applicable" because they didn't domarine education for their Senior Certificate. So, with thenew system coming in, the Denbeigh system, which is - bringsus back to the way standard, mainstream high school orsecondary schools are run, this problem should not exist inthe future. But this particular time, this particularcircumstance it did exist.

Thank you. And in respect of the problems that wereassociated with the timetabling, would you say that theyexacerbated or adversely affected in any way the reportingprocess, or do you think it didn't have any effect?-- Well,just before the reports came out, we of course had to followthe new timetable that Miss Illingworth put out and that ofcourse changed subjects. So - because I, for instance, wasteaching 11 marine education, 12 marine education, 11aquaculture and 12 aquaculture, there was no time for me totake all those maths classes, so therefore other people had totake the maths classes and report on it. For the person whotook my maths class was Tekoa Tafea. So, for two reasons thenI wrote the report on the maths students for him. One was


that I knew the students, and the second one was that hislevel of English - English is ESL to Tekoa and he doesn't havethe capability to actually write reports, so I did that forhim. We also did the same for some of the VET tutors whoweren't literate enough to write their own reports, weactually wrote their reports with them, got them to talk toeither me or to Linda, sat them down and we wrote theirreports for them. So the timetable then did affect thesereport cards, yes.

Thank you. We heard that it's now being claimed, it seems,that one of the correspondence in respect of your performancemay or may not have been placed into a pigeon hole somewherein the school. Do - the college, or at the time, did thecollege have your current address on their files?-- Yes,because they sent the letter of termination by overnightexpress to me.

And you hadn't changed your address in the period ofemployment at Djarragun College?-- No, I still have the sameaddress.

And are the college - presumably, obviously they're aware ofyour college e-mail. Do they have any other e-mail addressesfor you?-- They would've had my wife's address because I dide-mail some timetables to Jean at her home, so she'd have mywife's e-mail address.

So it's reasonable to suspect that they could communicate withyou-----?-- By e-mail to me at home-----

-----by e-mail or-----?-- -----to my wife's e-mail or - I canlook up the college's e-mail at home by web mail, or theycould overnight express something to me and it'd be in myletterbox the next day.

Great. And the letter of dismissal that you did receive wasthat sent registered post?-- No, it was sent overnightexpress.

Overnight express, okay. Thank you, I don't have any furtherquestions.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Duncan, there's just a couple of matter thatI wanted to raise with you. In your statements - if I canfind it - you say that you've had considerable experiences asa teacher who worked in eight schools across two States. I'mjust wondering if you could just flesh that out for me alittle bit more?-- Certainly, Commissioner. I startedteaching in special education in Brisbane at the QueenslandSchool for the Deaf, which was a full-time institution fordeaf students behind the PA Hospital, if you know Brisbane. Itaught there for three years. Then I went to Mareeba, whichis just west of Cairns there, taught there as a teacher for acouple of years, then went up to Atherton as acting teacher incharge of their special ed unit at Atherton Primary School.Then I went back to Mareeba and became teacher in charge ofMareeba special ed for about 11 years. Got tired of specialed, went across to the high school and I - not then, I - so I


went across to the high school and I started up the firstspecial ed unit in a high school in Queensland, which was atMareeba. And because my students had - the primary school inMareeba were getting to be 18 and just too big to be aroundprimary school kids, so I started up the first special ed highschool unit, ran that for two years, then became just astandard - I just got tired of special ed and became astandard maths/science teacher in the high school. Taughtmaths/science up to Year 12, from Year 8 to 12 at Mareeba HighSchool for another three years. Went out to Dimbulah for fiveyears as acting head of curriculum. Dimbulah was preschool toYear 10 and about 250 kids; 60 of those second in Year 8, 9,10 and I looked after those students for five years. Then Icouldn't get a transfer to Cairns to join my wife, who hadmoved to Cairns to work, so what I did was I went to thedistrict office and asked for any casual work and they sent meto Aurukun, so I was at Aurukun for 12 months and becamedeputy principal there. After Aurukun I still kept mystandard - or my level as head of curriculum at Dimbulah.Then I went back to district office and they said, "With yourspecial ed, how come - you'd become a - why don't you becomean advisory teacher based at Parramatta State School andtravel throughout all of the Cape and Gulf helping out ourteachers who are teaching handicapped kids?" I did that for12 months. Then the chance of a position at Cairns Highbecame available, so - Cairns High is a very large highschool, it has 1500 students, so I went there as head ofdepartment of teaching and learning, and that got changedthroughout that - during that year to senior schooling, so thesenior schooling I was looking after - for the Cairns HighSchool students in Year 10, 11 and 12, which would numberabout 700, all of their work experience, their school basedapprenticeships, their school based trainees, also doing alltheir VET. This is when VET started back in 2003, so I didthe initial VET training then. And we set up all the VETcourses at Cairns High and I did professional development atCairns High and my getting things such as my Certificate IV inWorkplace Training and Assessment that you need to run VETcourses. Whilst there at Cairns High an opportunity came upto go to Pormpuraaw, which is the old Edward River Mission, asprincipal, that's the primary school years, preschool to Year7, so I went there for 12 months, then back to Cairns High foranother three years. And this time a permanent position cameup at Woorabinda, which is west of Rockhampton, and I was at -the principal there for three years, from Years 5, 6 - 2005through to 2007. I was the longest serving principal there.I retired from there and went up to Groote Eylandt in theNorthern Territory as head of middle school, teaching Years 7,8, 9 and 10 and looking after about 60 students. While I wasthere, that contract finished, that was a 12 months contract,and I was offered then two positions, one at TownsvilleGrammar as head of learning support and one at DjarragunCollege at the time as a maths/science learning supportteacher. Our grand kids are in Cairns, my wife wanted tovisit our grand kids, so I decided to take the Djarragun job.Just before the interview I was rung up by a person, who hasnow left, called Stephen Thomas and said that "the positionhas now changed. It's not maths/science learning supportteacher, it's now head of senior secondary. Are you stillinterested?" I said, "Yes, I still want to come to Cairns."


I got the position. Paid my own travel down to DjarragunCollege, which was about $2000 to uplift and started at thecollege.

Okay?-- Enjoyed myself at the college.

Thank you for that. Just in relation to your probationaryperiod, satisfactorily completing that, I think you said thatit concluded about the 27th of April and Miss Illingworthadvised you that both you and your staff had all passed theirprobation?-- Yes, verbally, I went to see-----

Yes. What was the context of that conversation?-- Well, thecontext was I had a teacher called Paula Byrne who wasextremely fearful that she was going to be terminated. Andthe reason is that she didn't want to do an in-service calledRock and Water Behaviour Management and nor did anotherteacher, Jan Closier. And Jean had said to us at an adminmeeting that she'd got permission from the school council tosack them both. And I said to her, "Please don't do thatbecause Paula is very experienced in teaching English and Janhas made a good effort with the library. We need both thesepeople here." I said, "Let me go back and talk to them." SoI went back and talked to them and both agreed to do the Rockand Water three day behaviour management seminar. But afterthat, Paula was fearful that she would be sacked and sheneeded badly a job, so she was worrying about her probation.That's why I went and asked Jean about myself and my staff,"Have we passed our probation? Can I say that they'vepassed." And that's when Jean said, "We are a caring college.We don't sack people."

So, do you know when that conversation occurred?-- No, Idon't know the actual date. I just went and asked her, then Iwent back and told them straight away that they'd passed theirprobation.

So was the conversation in Miss Illingworth's office, wasit?-- Yes, it was.

Do you know what time of day?-- Yes, in the afternoon.

Okay?-- Straight after lunch.

Okay. And it was just a conversation between you andMiss Illingworth?-- Yes, yes.

All right. In your cross-examination by Mr Pollard, there wasa reference to a meeting between Miss Illingworth andMr Shankaran and I think during the Term 2 holidays to discussperformance. There was - I think you were supposed to go to ameeting or something like that to discuss performance?-- WhatI noticed in my - one of Miss Illingworth's statements wasthat I expect - her words were, "I tried to catch up with youon Friday for a meeting," so I think that might be what you'rereferring to, Commissioner, "I tried to catch up with you onFriday for a meeting." And maybe that's when she wasprogramming Vimal to come in and be with her to talk to me.


I know at the time you wanted to elaborate on something aroundthat and Mr Pollard wasn't going to let you so-----?-- Yes,yes.

-----I thought I would give you an opportunity?-- Sorry, Ijust can't place what it was.

Okay. All right. No, I can't be of any further assistance onthat-----?-- No, thank you for that.

-----my notes aren't that flash on that subject. Are thereany issues arising out of my questions that you wanted tofollow up, gentlemen?

MR VAUGHAN: No, thank you, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: That concludes your evidence, Mr Duncan, thankyou for give that, you are excused and you can join Mr Vaughnat the Bar table if you wish?-- Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMISSIONER: Now, I think we'd better work out where thiscase is going because I have a few issues. Mr Pollard, itseems to me, as I said before, that you're wanting to elicitquite a deal of evidence in evidence-in-chief that wasn'tgiven in your witnesses' statements.

MR POLLARD: Commissioner, in many of the circumstances whereI said that, what I was referring to was statements that havebeen made already and filed in - from Jean Illingworth and theothers where they contradicted that of Mr Duncan.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR POLLARD: So I was saying that evidence will be adduced;that's what I was referring to. In relation to evidence that- in those circumstances. In relation to other evidence, Iwas referring to evidence which - or statements from Mr Duncanwhich, in reply, were brand new and which hadn't beendiscussed before and raised before; and at the time ofadducing that evidence I'd like to address those discretely.However, I'm not seeking to adduce evidence that we had anopportunity to do in our reply, where we replied to theevidence of Mr Duncan and others that we just didn't take theopportunity at that time. There's very - there is a number ofspecific allegations and comments made in the reply statementswhich I will be asking the witnesses Illingworth and Tekoa and- Tafea and Shankaran to respond to and to put in context.

COMMISSIONER: Well, can you give me an example?

MR POLLARD: Certainly. In relation to the timetabling, so ifwe look at his response to Ms Illingworth which I believe was


Exhibit 2-----

COMMISSIONER: Exhibit 2.

MR POLLARD: -----there's a discussion there about thetimetabling and why it was taking so long to formulateregarding the HPE and art rooms because of the specialistteachers, that was something that hadn't been raised before.In relation to the next paragraph, "At the end of Term 1Miss Illingworth asked me to write a new timetable", againthat - those matters weren't actually raised earlier, so itwould be seeking to clarify and expand on any information thatmay have been provided earlier to clarify those issues.That's the sort of thing we're looking at.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. Because I would have - well, I mean,then we've got the issue about a warning letter beingdelivered in a pigeon hole and you said you were going toelicit evidence about that. I mean, that should've been inthe witness statement as evidence-in-chief.

MR POLLARD: Yes, those sorts of issues, Commissioner-----

COMMISSIONER: I mean, if there's going to be evidence aboutMr Shankaran and Miss Illingworth being at a meeting andfurther evidence about a meeting with Mr Duncan and who saidwhat-----

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: -----and that wasn't in the evidence initially.

MR POLLARD: No, that's correct. Yes. No, I won't be - whenI was standing here at the time, Commissioner, I might'vegiven the - said things like that, but I'm not going to seekto try and introduce evidence which could've been introducedat the commencement but wasn't. All I'm going to try and dois respond to new allegations that were made in the evidence -what was supposed be evidence in response to give my clientsan opportunity to respond to that.

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

MR POLLARD: And I have to admit, I mean, even incross-examination there was a number of statements made todaywhich I'll be seeking leave to adduce her response to thathaven't been raised.

COMMISSIONER: Well, that wouldn't be surprising. Thatwouldn't be surprising, yes.

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: We might just have to monitor how it goes.

MR POLLARD: We will, yes. Yes, Commissioner, I expect so.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Vaughn, did you want to say something?


MR VAUGHAN: No, only that it would be useful to understand assoon as possible what areas Mr Pollard believed are newsubmissions being made by us. That's not been indicated to meprior to this hearing. I believe from our hearing, themention that we had last Friday, the direction was that weshould have a conversation about any matters in statementsthat were seen to be bringing in new evidence and might becontested.

COMMISSIONER: I thought that was objections to things likeopinion evidence and hearsay and the like.

MR VAUGHAN: All right, okay. Well, no conversation has takenplace prior to this hearing in terms of-----

COMMISSIONER: Well-----

MR VAUGHAN: -----what might need to be challenged in respectof any new evidence. So what I'm saying is I respect thatdecision, but we will also need to pick that up as we go alongas well.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, well, you can take some instructions fromMr Duncan as you go. I don't know, Mr Pollard, whether you'reobjecting to material which are in other statements ofevidence from the applicant's witnesses.

MR POLLARD: No, Commissioner. The particular evidence thatwe were going to take some issue with has been - is decided tobe withdrawn and not relied upon, so in relation to thataspect, no, there's not going to be any discussions on that.And I did advise my friend this morning that in relation tothat issue, as far as we're concerned, that was a closed book.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. All right. You'll have another witnessavailable after lunch, Mr Vaughan?

MR VAUGHAN: Yes, we will, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. Would 2 o'clock be satisfactory?

MR VAUGHAN: Yes, that would be fine, thank you.

COMMISSIONER: All right, we'll adjourn until then.


THE COMMISSION ADJOURNED AT 12.55 P.M. TILL 2.00 P.M.







THE COMMISSION RESUMED AT 2.02 P.M.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Vaughan, your next witness.

MR VAUGHAN: Yes, thank you, Commissioner. The next witness is Mr John McGrath.

COMMISSIONER: Actually, there's one thing I need to do before the next witness or else I'll get into trouble from my associate. Mr Pollard, you showed Mr Duncan three report cards in - during his evidence which were part of Ms Illingworth's statement, I think. They - they are in fact part of her statement?

MR POLLARD: Yes, they are, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. So we - we don't really need to mark those in any-----

MR POLLARD: Not until Ms Illingworth gives her evidence, no.

COMMISSIONER: Well, I think they were marked as - was it JT1 or something in her-----

MR POLLARD: JI reports-----

COMMISSIONER: JI. Yes.

MR POLLARD: -----I think they're marked in the statement as.

COMMISSIONER: So are you content for them to be left in that way or do you want to separately mark them just for identification so we know which ones were brought to Mr Duncan's attention?

MR POLLARD: Commissioner, what - what I was going to do when

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09032010 D.3 T(2)1/LWM(CAI) CAIR5 (Fisher Cmr)

I introduced the evidence of Illingworth is also tender the - this.

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

MR POLLARD: And - and I sought - I thought - or my thinking at that time was that this would then adequately identify those ones referred to.

COMMISSIONER: All right. We'll deal with it in that way.


COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thank you. We'll continue with Mr McGrath.

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JOHN VINCENT MCGRATH, SWORN AND EXAMINED:

MR VAUGHAN: Thank you, Mr McGrath. Would you mind just stating your full name for the Commission?-- John Vincent McGrath.

And your current address, please?-- 12 Endeavour Road, Arcadia, Magnetic Island, Queensland.

And your former position at Djarragun College?-- I was an information technology teacher of middle school and some senior classes.

Thank you. We'd like to present the statement of Mr McGrath.

COMMISSIONER: Is that your statement, Mr McGrath?-- Yes, it is.

The one I have is not signed and dated. I'm not sure whether the one you have is signed and-----

MR VAUGHAN: It's not, Commissioner.

WITNESS: No, it's not.

COMMISSIONER: Okay?-- I did sign and date two and send them down to the union but Phillip says they didn't arrive.

Okay. All right. Are there any changes, additions or corrections you wish to make to this statement?-- No, there's not.

Are the contents true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?-- Yes.

Okay. If you would sign and date that statement-----?-- Sure.

-----and I'll mark it as Exhibit 6.


MR VAUGHAN: Thank you, Commissioner. We'd like to-----

COMMISSIONER: That's the evidence of this witness, or do you - have you got further questions?

MR VAUGHAN: Only in respect to clarification from Mr Pollard's questions.

XN: MR VAUGHAN 3-64 WIT: MCGRATH J V

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COMMISSIONER: Okay.


COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Pollard.

CROSS-EXAMINATION:

MR POLLARD: Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you, Mr McGrath. I'll try and be brief. You commenced at Djarragun College in term 1 in 2009?-- That's right.

Did you attend any induction process in term 1 2009?-- No.

What - you say that you were employed for seven months?-- Yes.

And so therefore you were at the college at the commencement of term 3?-- Yes.

Was there any induction process in the commencement of term 3?-- Yes, there was. There was three days set aside for induction.

Okay. You say in your statement at paragraph 6 that - you say, "From my very first day it was obvious that Jean Illingworth was responsible for the school timetables." How was it obvious to you that Ms Illingworth was responsible for those timetables?-- Ms Illingworth emailed us with a - a short note and an attachment with the emails - with the timetables on it, and the short note would usually be some explanation as to what she had done and why she had done it.

Right. Did you ever see any timetables produced by Mr Duncan?-- I didn't see it but I aware - I was aware that it was happening.

How were you aware it was happening?-- I think Ken had told me that he'd been asked to do it, and this was approximately halfway through term 2.

So - then in paragraph 6 you say - that's over the page and - and page 2. In about the third sentence you say, "Ken was only allowed to do timetabling near the end of his tenure but could never get accurate data from Jean." How did you come into that knowledge?-- From discussions with Ken at the time and from discussions with other staff. Ken - as I understood at the time from those discussions, Ken was seeking information from staff as to what the subjects would be but the - the ground kept shifting. Jean would make new decisions on almost a daily basis and it became very difficult to


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produce that timetable. My interest was that I was in charge of the database that was trying to keep track of all of that and so I was trying to - trying desperately to get data for that database.


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Okay. And you say in paragraph 7 that Djarragun had employed a VET coordinator throughout 2008 and 2009.

MR VAUGHAN: Commissioner, I believe that we agreed earlier that that paragraph would be not referred to in the proceedings and that that was-----

MR POLLARD: It wasn't actually excluded before, it was-----

COMMISSIONER: I don't know anything about this, so-----

MR POLLARD: It's still in the evidence that has just been adduced.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, and if there was any objection or any clarification, that should have been done before. I mean, it's now part of the evidence.

MR VAUGHAN: Okay.

COMMISSIONER: If there's been an agreement to exclude it, that's one thing, but if there's not been an agreement, then it's there.

MR VAUGHAN: It's my understanding of the communications that happened prior to the-----

MR POLLARD: Well-----

MR VAUGHAN: -----hearing were that we had agreed on that point, but-----

MR POLLARD: I received an email that something would be done, and just before it wasn't, so I have to assume that this is the evidence that's being introduced and adduced. I - I assume that if - if - whilst there may be undertakings made by one party to another, that would have been followed up and a corrected document would have been provided. It stands that - I have to assume that this is the evidence that was intended.

COMMISSIONER: Or if not a corrected document, it should have been done before this was accepted as the evidence of this witness. Now, if there has been an agreement in-----

MR POLLARD: Well, can I correct that?

COMMISSIONER: Well, do you want to - do you two want to have a chat and work out what you're doing with this, or what's the situation because I-----

MR POLLARD: Perhaps that might be appropriate, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: All right. Do I need to stand the matter down for a couple of minutes?

XXN: MR POLLARD 3-67 WIT: MCGRATH J V

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MR POLLARD: No, we can just have a quiet-----

COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thanks.

MR VAUGHAN: Commissioner, we've agreed that we will retract that particular paragraph, paragraph 7 of the statement as agreed previously.

COMMISSIONER: Okay.


MR POLLARD: Perhaps if the witness would be then required to correct the statement-----

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR VAUGHAN: Sure, I apologise-----

MR POLLARD: -----with the-----

MR VAUGHAN: -----for not dealing with that matter before.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. And perhaps, Mr McGrath, if you could just initial that for me I would be grateful. Thank you.

MR POLLARD: Okay. Could I please ask the witness be shown the report number 101 that was shown to the previous witness? Is it there? Initials HT. That's it, yes. Mr McGrath, could you please just spend a minute or two making yourself - apprise yourself of that report. Now, just to - to set your mind at ease, Mr McGrath, I'm not going to ask you about specific material - factual content contained within that report?-- Mmm.

It's more general than that, so please don't think you need to memorise it?-- Okay.

Now, have you had an opportunity to review that, Mr McGrath?-- I hope sufficiently, yes.

Thank you. Okay. If you haven't, please let me know and we'll take some time?-- Okay.

Okay. Now, in your statement at paragraph 9 you say that you believe that most of the problems arose in regards to the reports due to the school adopting a new database at the start of the year. Then - you then go on to go into more detail about that database. Now, the evidence presented earlier from Mr Duncan or - or what was - sorry, I'll retract that. It was in evidence it is - has been stated that the new database was not used for the production of these reports?-- That's correct.

That's correct. Okay. So it was a database that had been used


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previously, the databases that had been used previously for those reports. Is that correct?-- That's right, yeah.

Okay. Now, concerning the format of that report, how it looks, that sort of thing, are you content that - as - as a professional educator are you content that that would be of a suitable standard to be shown to parents of a student?-- No.

No. Okay. Now - okay. No problem. I'll leave it at that. You say in paragraph 10 that Ms Illingworth had concluded in late term 2 that the senior program would be completely revamped?-- Mmm-hmm.

What do you mean by "completely revamped"?-- The issue at the time seemed to be as - as it was discussed by Ms Illingworth and by staff, and you can imagine there was a great deal of discussion at the time, but a very quick decision was made by the principal. The - the issue seemed to concern the teaching of English, that many of the students were feeling that the English program was too academic and - and not interesting and found it too difficult, and the talk at the time amongst the staff and from Ms Illingworth was that a number of students were - were dropping away and certainly the school was losing numbers at the time, and almost without warning the principal met with the students and the staff and redesigned the subjects that were being taught, the student groupings and which teacher would be in front of each class. This was with about three or four weeks left to go before the end of term 2, at the very time when everybody was trying to write reports. So that was an exceptionally difficult thing for everybody and as the database administrator was trying to get the Denby database to a position where we could write our reports on it, it became obvious that that very move made that impossible.

Okay. You say in paragraph 11, in the second sentence you say "It was an ongoing concern to me that people were being dismissed without any formal procedure being followed"?-- Mmm.

Who was dismissed without any procedure being followed?-- In term 1 there were two people dismissed and in term 2 there were a further six that were dismissed.

So you say that there was eight people dismissed in total in term - in - in the first semester?-- Yes.

Term 1 and 2-----?-- Yes.

-----of 2009?-- Yes, that's right and another five resigned during that time.

Now, in relation to the people who were dismissed how do you know that there was no formal procedure being followed?-- A number approached me immediately. They - they would talk to anybody who would listen really and I think people knew that I'd been in schools for, you know, quite some time. I didn't look young and I was obviously experienced, so certainly - a


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very good example, a - a woman, a wife of one of the existing staff members had been asked to teach, I think, certificate I in nursing. She was dismissed on the last day of term 1. It was a shock to her. She - she - there'd been no warning she said. There'd been no documentation. She simply got what became famous at Djarragun as "the white envelope."

So she - that's what she - that's what she told you?-- Yes.

Okay. You’ve got no other information or evidence to that. That’s just what you heard from the terminated employee?-- Yes.

Thank you. Okay. You say in paragraph 13 you've, "Served as a school principal in the government sector and in my opinion Ken Duncan is a highly effective teacher" and so on. Did you attend any of his classes?-- I occasionally strolled in on Ken's classes. I - in order to get from where I was teaching, down to the staff room or down to the library, I had to pass Ken's classroom. His door was usually open and I - I could see. We do tend to observe each other. Teachers don’t work in a vacuum and having been a principal and a deputy principal for a long time, it's just something I watch anyway.

But you didn’t actually spend any length of time with Mr Duncan in his classrooms?-- I didn’t sit in Ken's classroom and monitor them.

No?-- I did visit his classroom to talk to him on occasions and was able to observe on those occasions what was happening.

Did you see any of his lesson plans?-- No, I didn’t ask to see those.

Okay. You say in paragraph 14, when you arrived in January 2009, "I was shocked to see the state of the administration" and then you say, "The principal was a micro-manager without organisational skills"?-- Mmm.

How did she micro-manage you?-- How did she micro-manage me? The - the level of her micro-management was that in seeking to change class groupings, change which class you are teaching and the content of that class was almost a daily issue. It was a - a standing joke at the school that you arrive on a Monday morning to - to look at the new timetable to find out which class you might be teaching, you would learn that the curriculum that you were teaching was - was somehow to be quite different to anything you'd - I'd - I'd envisaged it to be. Even when I was teaching set Vet courses, it would be made clear to me that something else was expected which didn’t fit any of the Queensland curriculum guidelines. It was a - was a - a new novel area. The micro-management - it was clear that Ms Illingworth controlled every decision in the school. None - no decisions were made by anybody else. The movement of-----


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Well, it's - it's been - it's been stated that before that in fact Mr Shankaran was in charge of one area and Mr Tafea was in charge of another area and-----?-- Mmm.

-----Ms Illingworth was in - well she's in charge of two campuses over a - a large school. So, it's not in fact the case to say that she was in charge and that - manage everything, is it because she did devolve tasks to others?-- No, no, she didn’t actually. The - with the one exception of Tafea who did have responsibility for student discipline. If - if a student misbehaved, Tafea had the authority to remove that student from the school. Now, I don’t think there are any other exceptions. An example was that where a table needed to be moved from the library - it was offered to a teacher in the primary school - the principal intervened and spoke to the librarian and said that no piece of furniture in the school was to be moved without her direct permission. And that was typical of the running of the school.

But that’s - that'd be just asset management, wouldn’t it. Knowing where everything is. I mean that’s - that’s just a standard-----?-- It's not a - it's not a standard principal's task, no. Particularly when there was an - an - an assets manager in the school.

You’ve - you’ve made a very strong statement at the end of your evidence. You say, "I concluded that Djarragun was not a suitable place for professional teachers"?-- Mmm.

"And not a good place for kids and issued my formal resignation"?-- Mmm-hmm.

Now, with that statement are you - does that align with the reputation with the reputation of Djarragun College? That it's not a good place for students or professional teachers?-- I think Djarragun has two reputations. One's the public fund raising reputation and a great deal of - of time and attention - a great deal of class time is devoted to that. Classes will be stopped if there are visitors coming and visitors come frequently and that reputation is based on performance, song and dance by the students. It's based on having a very clean school and Ms Illingworth emphasised that. It was a role of staff to pick up rubbish around the school and she emailed us quite directly about that. Threatening our employment if we didn’t pick up rubbish around the school. There was a great deal of money attracted to Djarragun like I'd never seen in any other school before, but what was happening in educational terms, no normal educational outcomes appeared to me to be - being met.

Mr Duncan earlier said that the VET program at Djarragun College had a fantastic reputation. He said, "It had such a good reputation that many, many people were attracted to the school to offer their services and to commence programs"?-- Mmm.


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Now, that - that doesn’t exactly correlate with the view you're putting forward, does it?-- Well, I think it does. As I say, there are - there are two personas to Djarragun. One is a - one is a public and very well cultivated reputation and a great deal of attention is given to that and I would say that Ms Illingworth is brilliant at that side of - of the running of the school. But in terms of what was actually happening with students, then it wasn’t measuring up in the same way. And what was happening in the VET area, was that there are a great number of unqualified staff delivering subjects sometimes which they knew very little about and were ignoring any of the normal VET procedures for the running of those programs.

So, you're saying - and I haven't seen this in your statement earlier, but you're saying that many of the people who produce or who present courses at that - at that college are actually unqualified?-- Yes, that’s why those schools run VET courses, because you don’t need qualified teachers for them.

So, you're saying they're not qualified teachers, but you're not saying that they're unqualified to present the courses that they're presenting in VET?-- Well, they were unqualified to present VET courses, because normally a minimum requirement for VET - there - there are two - one is that you have your Cert IV in - in curriculum delivery and assessment and the second one is that you, as a minimum, have at least that qualify - that qualification that you're presenting. So, if you're doing a Cert II in horticulture, you should have a Cert II in horticulture, or above. Now, that wasn’t the case there.

Well, if - if that’s the case, how is it then that the college actually passed its audit when it was audited later in the year-----?-- Mmm-hmm.

-----for its VET programs. It passed the audit. Now, if it had had unqualified people teaching these courses, they couldn’t have passed an audit saying that it was all hunky-dory, could it?-- Well, I wasn’t there when the audit was conducted. I'd gone, so I - I don’t know how that happened.

Right?-- Any - there had been attempts to let the education department know that a great number of unqualified people were taking classes at Djarragun which under normal conditions, they should not have been doing, but there seemed to be a bit of a lack of interest in - in that.

Okay. So, if when Ms Illingworth and Mr Shankaran and Mr Tafea - they were to come in and - later in these proceedings and I was to ask them whether there were any unqualified people presenting these courses, are you saying that their answer would be "yes"?-- I - I can't anticipate what they would say.

All right?-- But I - I would say I don’t - I don’t know whether they would know what the requirements are. I think


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that might be a little bit of the issue.

So, you're - you're saying then that in your opinion, Mr Shankaran who as being said was in charge of this - the VET program, for example, of - that’s the evidence from earlier on - he wouldn’t even know what the requirements were for the teachers conducting these courses?-- I'm saying I don’t know, but it's a possibility.

All right. Now, it says in paragraph 14 of your statement regarding the micro-management issue of - of that you say Ms Illingworth has you say, "This had been recognised in an earlier review of her performance and attempts had been made to put in place campus principals to fill this obvious gap"?-- Mmm-hmm.

How did you become aware of this?-- Of the review - specifically through the IEU.

So, you were told by union who - when you say you were told by the IEU, who in the IEU told you?-- Dee, the local union organiser.

Right?-- Mmm-hmm.

Right?-- And that was-----

Clearly-----?-- -----was confirmed by a member of staff as well.

Who?-- Linda McKeown-----

Okay?-- -----confirmed that.

Right. Okay. So, really all of your knowledge in relation to these alleged shortcomings at the college came from others and not from your own observations, putting aside the issue that you say about the timetables and so on. Really you heard this from others. You didn’t actually know it for yourself?-- Well, I could see and hear a great deal myself-----

Yes?-- -----and attended meetings which became very, very clear.

Okay. Well, about the qualifications, then, of the VETteachers-----?-- Mmm.

-----how did you become aware that they allegedly didn't havethe qualifications?-- Well, it began in my own area, which isInformation Technology, there were - there were three of usteaching VET courses in that area and in discussions with theother two, it was quite clear that they did not have thequalifications.

Did they tell you they didn't have qualifications?-- Yes,


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they did, yeah. They told me what - what their qualificationswere, what their background was, we - we talked at greatlength together. And we talked about what was required toteach VET and we tried to make some changes to conform withthe procedures. I became friendly with a number of otherteachers in the VET area and had discussions with them about -people were concerned about the VET audit that had been playedup in the school and people were concerned about their ownqualifications and what the requirements were. I obviouslyhad some knowledge in that area, so people did sometimes seekme out.

Okay. So, you're saying that if we were to go and seek outthose qualifications and the records regarding thequalifications of these teachers, those records woulddemonstrate that they did not have the formal qualificationsrequired to teach a course in a school on VET subjects?--Absolutely, yes.

Okay. So, Mr McGrath, were you aware that Djarragun Collegepays for all VET teachers to get their training and assessmentcourse. Is that a qualification?-- I'm aware that towardsthe end of Term 1, a session was run at the school for anumber of people to get their Cert IV, yes.

So, is it then that maybe for a portion, they might not havehad that qualification but they had it by the end of Term 2?--That Cert IV allows you to assess your subject and deliversome teaching skills, it - it doesn't then qualify you toteach the subject. You should also have the appropriatequalification yourself, or higher, and for a lot of peoplethat was the issue, they didn't - they didn't actually havethe qualification themselves.

But to teach a VET course - and please, I need to understandthis just in my own mind so I'm not being deliberatelyobtuse-----?-- Okay.

A VET course, for example if I wanted to teach baking, all Iwould need would be a trade qualification as a baker and theCert IV in training and assessing. Is that right?-- It's notcompletely right because the normal path to get a trade in -as a baker would be that you might well have done aCertificate I, then a Certificate II, then a Certificate III,then a Certificate IV, perhaps a diploma, and then you wouldbe a baker. Now, if I wanted to teach baking to prospectivebakers I - and if I wanted to teach Certificate I I would'vehad to have done and completed Certificate I or higher. If Iwant to teach Certificate II, I must have Certificate II orhigher.

But you-----?-- I can't just be a baker.

Well, with the greatest respect if I have, as I said, aqualification as a baker, so you've completed anapprenticeship, you've got those things?-- Sure.


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You're a qualified baker?-- Yep.

If I wanted to teach baking as a VET course, I would then onlyneed to add to that the Cert IV in training and assessing?--If I have the qualification or higher-----

Yes?-- -----then I only need to the Cert IV, that's right.

Right?-- To deliver VET, yes.

Right, right, okay?-- And the difference is-----

So it's not - it's not the situation where somebody who has aformal qualification in a trade area, which is largely what welook at in VET courses, isn't it? Construction, hairdressing,hospitality?-- That's the assumption that is normally made.That didn't apply at Djarragun.

Okay, I'm lost. The VET area at Djarragun College was -included hairdressing?-- Mmm.

It included hospitality?-- Mmm.

It included construction?-- Yep.

Furniture making?-- Mmm.

So those areas all have apprenticeships?-- Well, do they?

All areas - well, the apprentice furniture maker, apprenticescarpenter, apprentice whatever?-- Do - well, do you knowthat? Because I think in some of the - some areas in theschool it is very questionable and I think furniture makingmight be specifically one of those.

Okay?-- I know about - I do know about hairdressing and Iagree with you. I think in the construction area, I think.Now, you would really have to check it but you may well beright. But you may not be right.

Okay?-- You should not take it for granted at Djarragun. Thedifficulty here is in - when VET courses were originally putinto secondary schools, they were the preserve of TAFE andthey were run by qualified tradespeople with years - sevenyears' experience minimum and the appropriate qualifications.And then we were allowed to run them in secondary schoolsunder very type provisos and those provisos were that theperson had a Cert IV, so that they could assess, and secondly,that they did have a background in that trade and they had toat least the equivalent level that they were teaching. Now,at Djarragun that was being ignored to some - to some degree.

Okay. Well, I'm going to suggest to you that that's not -well, I'm going to put to you that that's not in fact thecase.


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COMMISSIONER: You'll just need to respond to that in someway, Mr McGrath?-- Well, I believe it is the case.

MR POLLARD: Okay.

COMMISSIONER: Or - is it is the case or it was the case whenyou were there?-- I believe it still is the case because manyof those people are still there.

MR POLLARD: Okay. Okay. Now, you make - in regard to anumber of statements, Mr McGrath, I formally have to put somethings to you?-- Sure.

When I put these things to you they only require a yes or a noanswer?-- Okay.

Now, I put it to you that it was in fact Mr Duncan'sresponsibility to manage the timetabling at the college?--No.

I put it to you that Mr Duncan was not in fact an effectiveteacher?-- We're dealing with a double negative here. Ibelieve he was an effective teacher.

Thank you. In regard to that report I showed you before, theformatting of that report - no, sorry, I've already done that,I don't think I need to do it again. No, I have no furtherquestions at this time, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr Vaughn?

MR VAUGHAN: Thank you, Commissioner.

RE-EXAMINATION:

MR VAUGHAN: Just a couple of brief points, Mr McGrath, thankyou. You were jointly responsible for the database in respectof - at the time. Is that correct?-- Yes.

And you note in your statement that you became aware ofproblems with that database?-- Yes.

And did you discuss those issues and concerns with theprincipal?-- Yes.

What was the principal's response?-- There were tworesponses. The initial response was, "We will make everythingall right. It will happen."

MR POLLARD: Excuse me, your Honour, Commissioner, I don'tactually know that this was raised in cross-examination. I


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didn't actually ask Mr McGrath any questions about approachingMiss Illingworth or about the database itself, so I questionwhether it can be raised in re-examination.

COMMISSIONER: Are you - sorry, are you referring to -Mr McGrath's evidence did touch on the database used forreports and teaching of English. Are you talking about thator are you talking about something else?

MR VAUGHAN: No, I was talking about the database forproducing the reports.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. So just be clear about what it is thatyou're asking so I can be certain that it was raised incross-examination.

MR VAUGHAN: The question that we're raising is whether or notthose concerns that were discussed earlier were raised withthe principal.

COMMISSIONER: So the concerns about the database being usedto prepare the reports, is that what you're asking?

MR VAUGHAN: I think it was more in terms of the generalconcerns about the adequacy of the database.

COMMISSIONER: Well, I'm not sure the extent that that wasreally raised in cross-examination.

MR VAUGHAN: Okay. All right, I'll take that point -question, thank you. The only other matter I was going toraise was the - it was raised at the beginning that youresigned from your position at the college?-- Yes.

As you will be aware that a number of the claims are thatresignations were happening as a result of Mr Duncan. Can youjust confirm whether or not you're-----

COMMISSIONER: Well, I'm not sure that that was raised incross-examination either.

MR VAUGHAN: Okay. I've got no further questions then, thankyou.

COMMISSIONER: Mr McGrath, can I ask you to clarify something?When Mr Pollard was talking to you in relation to paragraph 10of your statement - this is the change of classes and the like- you gave an example of what you said was a quick decision byIllingworth regarding the teaching of English. There was - Ithink students were concerned that it was too academic, toodifficult, so Ms Illingworth decided that she would redesignthe course content. Do you remember giving this evidence?--Not - not exactly that. She didn't redesign the coursecontent, she redesigned the program of the senior school. Itinvolved maths classes, English classes; a number of thingswere included.


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Yeah, the student groupings, the teachers-----?-- Yes, yes,that's right.

Yes. And that occurred, I think you said, about three or fourweeks before the end of Term 2?-- Mmm.

Then you went on to make a comment about that caused adifficulty with the database?-- Mmm.

I just couldn't link what you were saying about the change inEnglish to the database?-- Right.

So if you could just join the dots for me?-- Okay. The oldway of doing reports in schools is that you hand write them.

Yes?-- Each teacher does that. The more modern way, whichsaves everybody a great deal of time and it allows you tostore them forever, is that you have a database which has thenames of the students, their home addresses, their parents'names, a photo, and the idea is that each teacher enters thedata for their subject against a class list, so the databaseshould show early on that there is a class, perhaps say 11Adoing maths, their class teacher is Mr Duncan, he enters thedata for each of those students, submit the criteria data andat the end of it all, the database administrator simplypresses print and out it all comes. Now because the classes,the class groupings and the timetable kept changing we couldnever get that information onto the database. We could neveractually say at any point that we had a list of students in11A doing maths and that - who the class teacher was becausethere's actually - to get that data on is probably about sixto eight weeks of intensive work by a data entry person andthe database administrator, so we didn't ever get to the pointwhere we could get that data and say, "Well, it's here, it'sknown, it's on the computer." In most schools that data wouldbe entered at the end of the previous year, in your planningfor next year you do it or you do it over the Christmasholidays, so on Day 1 it's all set up. You don't make changesfor the rest of the year, except very slight ones.

And did that problem impact on the quality of the reports thatwere issued?-- Hugely. It - it meant that the Denbeighdatabase system on which all our student data had been enteredwas unusable for this process. So late, very very late inTerm 2, with me pressing very hard, I was very conscious thatI was going to be blamed for the - the mess of - you know,luckily Ken got blamed in the end - I thought I was going tobe blamed as the database administrator, so I was speaking toeverybody I could. What happened in the end is that themiddle school effectively went back to a funny little databasethat they'd created themselves. The primary school, thecoordinator of that actually typed them all up by hand herself- and a lot of kids. The senior school, we tried to revert totwo databases that had been in existence in 2008, so the datawasn't current, photos weren't current, the students were inthe wrong year levels. There were two databases at that time,


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one was for VET subjects - one of the staff had created thatbut he'd left the school by then - and the second one was forthe more general subjects like English and maths. Now, theywere reverted to so late in Term 2 that it was absolutelyclear that not only did staff not know what subjects they werereporting on, whether it was the ones they'd been teachingright up till then or the new groupings, they didn't have adatabase that was usable to produce them on. Their solutionwas really to try and use the databases, which is what'shappened here, or to write them by hand. And writing them byhand, probably for a school like Djarragun, would be to - tolose a lot of face. Yeah.

Okay. Are there any questions arising out of mine?


FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION:

MR POLLARD: Mr McGrath, my instructions are that it was infact - my instructions are that it was the staff of the Seniorschool who decided what went in because they knew thedifficulty level, they knew what - they knew what thestudent's level was at. It wasn't Ms Illingworth, it wasn'tanyone else; it was the staff of the Senior school. How doyou respond?

COMMISSIONER: When you say went in, what was written on thereports? Is that what you're saying or-----

MR POLLARD: The class lists, the class lists themselves?--The class lists?

Yes?-- The - the difficulty for all of those staff memberstaking those brand new classes halfway through Term 2 was thatthey had no idea who was meant to be in front of them andthere was so much uproar about it. Because in an indigenousschool like that, attendance is a major issue. Even when youhave class lists you still have people - students coming andgoing at an alarming rate. To not have any idea who was meantto be in front of you because no-one had been able to produceclass list, because the principal had done it and moved on tothe next issue and hadn't, you know, done the detail-----

Mr McGrath, is the - in regards to these class lists, as yourefer to, were the students tested before they enteredDjarragun College or at the commencement, were they tested?--I believe the primary school students are tested. I'm notsure about the secondary.

Okay. Well, I put it to you that secondary school studentsare tested to assess their ability level in each area?-- Thatmay well be the case at the start of each year but Djarragun,at the start of Term - Term 1, it was quite clear that whatwas there was a whole new group by and large from the previousyear, they'd come in from other schools and, at the end Term1, a lot of them stopped coming. Term 2, it was a whole lotof new students-----

No, no, Mr McGrath, I'm sorry. What I said was at thecommencement of the year in 2009-----?-- Yeah.

-----the secondary students are assessed or tested to theirability level. That's what I'm putting to you. That's whathappens, isn't it?-- Well, I can't say that it does or itdoesn't.

Okay?-- I would be very surprised if that was the case.

So what I put to you is that it's in fact the staff of thesenior school who develop these class lists, taking intoaccount the results from these assessments. What you'resaying about Ms Illingworth doing it on an ad hoc basis is

FXXN: MR POLLARD 3-80 WIT: McGRATH J V

just untrue?-- Well, I think you're gaining your instructionsfrom someone who was actually ill at the time and not at theschool. The - it was quite clear that the principal did it,and the principal did it without reference to any tests. Itwas - it's a judgment.

Thank you, I have no further questions based on that,Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Vaughan, did you have any further questions?

MR VAUGHAN: No further questions, thank you.

COMMISSIONER: Mr McGrath, thank you for giving your evidence,you are excused. You can either remain in the courtroom or goabout your business as you wish?-- Thank you.

Thank you?-- Will I leave this statement to-----

Yes, yes, my Associate will collect that.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Vaughan, do you have another witness?

MR VAUGHAN: Thank you. Commissioner, the next witness isMs Irene Hocke.

COMMISSIONER: Now, is there anything in this statement that'sto be omitted by agreement or otherwise?

MR VAUGHAN: No, not on this occasion, thank you.

MR POLLARD: No, Commissioner, no you.

FXXN: MR POLLARD 3-81 WIT: McGRATH J V

IRENE LINDA HOCKE, ON AFFIRMATION, EXAMINED:

COMMISSIONER: Thank you, please be seated.

MR VAUGHAN: Thank you, Ms Hocke. I wonder if you could juststart by confirming your full name to the Commission,please?-- Irene Linda Hocke. And while I was at the school Iwas known as Irene Linda Weiland.

Thank you. And your full address please?-- 37 CurrawongStreet, Bayview Heights.

And your former position at the college?-- I was the programmanager for the health and well-being programs.

Thank you. And, Commission, if I may just pass this statementup to Miss Hocke. Thank you?-- Okay, that's-----

COMMISSIONER: Could you just confirm that that is yourstatement?-- Okay, so just look through the whole thing?

Yes-----?-- Yeah.

-----just look through it, yes?-- Yep, that looks like it.

Are there any changes or corrections, additions that you wishto make to that statement?-- Not - not from what I can see.I mean, it looks like the one that I provided.

So the contents are true and correct-----?-- Yep.

-----to the best of your knowledge and belief?-- Yes, yes.

Could we just ask you to sign and date that witness statement,So just today's date?

Yes, that's fine, thank you?-- Which is the 9th - 10th - 9th- 10th?

It's the 9th?-- The 9th, okay.

And the statement's marked Exhibit 7.


MR VAUGHAN: Thank you, Commissioner.COMMISSIONER: That's the evidence of this witness?

MR VAUGHAN: That's the evidence, that's correct.

XN: MR VAUGHAN 3-82 WIT: HOCKE I L

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Pollard?

CROSS-EXAMINATION:

MR POLLARD: Good morning, Mrs - is it Hocke or-----?--Hockey, yeah.

Okay, thank you.

COMMISSIONER: And we've actually moved to the afternoon.

MR POLLARD: Yes, we have. I'm sorry.

COMMISSIONER: I think that happened while you weren'twatching. Yes.

MR POLLARD: I've entered the strange time zone. Mrs Hocke,I'll try and be brief, I do have a few questions. And due tothe procedural requirements of court, I'm going to have to puta few things to you and I'll start that by saying "I put", youknow, and then make a statement?-- Yep.

When I do that, all I require is a yes or no answer. Thankyou. I notice that you've got an extensive amount of exterior- experience teaching indigenous students across the schoolsin Queensland. Now, have you noticed in your experience, achange in the way indigenous students are educated in schoolsin Queensland in the previous, say, ten years?-- Change asin-----

Okay. The attitude towards educating indigenous students, theway courses are presented first, for example?-- Yep.

We'll start with that on a basic level?-- Yep.

The way courses are presented to indigenous students, have younoticed a change in that over the previous ten years?-- Yes.

Okay. Have you - in your experience, and given yourbackground, is it different now to what it was, for example,when you went to school?-- Yes, absolutely, yep.

Absolutely, okay. Now, the education that's provided atDjarragun College, the methodology they use and so on, wouldyou say that that is similar to the way it's being presentedin other educational institutions for indigenous students?--No.

No? Okay. In what way do you say it's different?-- Well, inmy experience as a teacher, the way that schools normallyoperate you have a program that's set by the school in termsof what's expected to be taught.


Okay. Well, if I could just - sorry, I'll stop you there?--Yeah.

I know you're trying to answer me and I'll give you thatopportunity-----?-- Yep.

-----but just in relation to that bit so I don't forget, whenyou say a program, are you talking about a particularsubject?-- As in an educational program? It's for thedifferent year levels-----

Yes?-- -----and then for specific subjects.

Okay?-- So I mean, you've got standard curriculum, that'staught in all Queensland schools, that's a requirement of allschools, including independent schools, up to Year 10, fromprep to Year 10. And then from Year 11, then it changes sothat they don't necessarily have to still follow the standardcurriculum. But there is - there are different options thenfor the students.

Okay. So the program's, then, for those different options?--Yeah.

Where are those programs - where - if I was to start up aschool tomorrow-----?-- Yeah.

-----where would I get a program like that from?-- Well, Imean, obviously you'd go and look at what the expectations arefor Queensland firstly, so you'd go to the EducationDepartment and look at what the Education Departmentrequirements are, then you'd look at any other requirementsthat are in place in Queensland for students. And thenspecifically for indigenous students as well, because theEducation Department and Government usually have policies andprograms that are specifically directed for indigenous peopleand indigenous students.

Yes?-- And then within the school system, the school thentakes that on board and looks at, well, what do we want to setas priorities in terms of the - the educational outcomes wewant to achieve with this school with the students here? Andusually that involves the teachers, it includes the wholeschool community, it includes parents. It's not somethingthat's done in isolation or by one person, it's - it's asystem, it's a whole approach, so you-----

But if you wanted to-----?-- -----you identify what theeducational outcomes you want to achieve for that year forwhatever the grade level is for each area, subject area. Soyou've got - if you've got students who are doing coresubjects, then of course you've got to comply with what therequirements are within Queensland.Mmm?-- If you've got students who are doing noncore subjects,then of course the school will - will set the direction forwhat they'd like to see achieved for - by students at the endof the year, so there has to be some continuity of learningover a period of time.


Yes?-- And, yeah, that's usually what happens in schools.

Okay. Now, in relation - what - I understand what you'resaying about the school deciding what educational outcomesthey would try to achieve and so on?-- That's right.

But in relation to a particular program, now you said youtaught health?-- I did teach health, a program as such. WhatI was originally employed to do was to be a manager ofprograms-----

Right?-- -----health and well-being programs across the wholeschool.

Yes?-- When I got there, then my role changed. After thethird week at school I found out that I was teaching and so Itaught English, I taught health - what else was I doing? Andthen there was some, like, computer IT sort of programs thatthey wanted me to do with the kids.

Okay. Now, in relation to the individual courses, let's moveon to a course, so a course in - for example, using somethingyou taught, health?-- Yeah.

Okay. Using a course like that they're actually available,aren't they? They have to be approved or registeredsomewhere, don't they, those courses? You can't sort of makeup one as you go?-- That's, that's - well, usually whathappens is the school sets the direction, so the school -senior management - and usually by the principal, led by theprincipal that says, "Working together with the staff, this iswhat we're going to do for health." And they develop what theprogram is going to be for health for that particular year foreach year level, so that is how - from my experiences that how- that's how schools normally operate.

Yes, and I accept that. But what I'm trying to understand is- and please forgive me, I'm not usually this dense, it's late- but the subjects you teach in relation to that program,okay-----?-- Mmm.

-----they're approved by a body, aren't they, the subjects?You can't just sort of teach anything?-- It depends on whatsubject it is. Like if it's non - a noncore subject-----

Right?-- Like if it's a school subject, the school can decideon what it is that they want to teach, especially in Year 11and 12. But from prep to Year 10, there's a standardcurriculum that all kids - all students up to Year 10 inQueensland must be taught.

No, I accept that, I accept that point. But what I'm tryingto get to is-----?-- Yeah.

-----the school doesn't make up the subjects that are beingtaught in relation to one of these other programs in Year 11and 12, do they? Because in these programs, they're actuallyaccredited by a body, aren't the, in order to get thequalification?-- It depends on what it is. If it's - not


health, if it's a - if you're talking about training packagesprobably-----

Yes, so-----?-- So if you've got, like, the VET subjects.

Yes?-- So they're the Vocational Education Training subjects,they have to meet national accreditation requirements.

Right?-- And there's training packages that - for eachindustry area, there's training packages that sit with - underthat, so depending on what qualification the - the student iswanting to achieve, they will do a certain training package.

Okay?-- And, yes, you have to comply with what therequirements are of that, which are quite strict.

Yes?-- It's a national standard right across Australia. Andthen you'd have to put in place systems and also have teachersor trainers with specific qualifications and they have to -it's quite strict, so they have to meet certain criteria to beable to teach those particular or train in that particulararea and deliver those competencies in the training packages.

Okay. Did you know any of the VET teachers at all? Did you get to know any of them in your time there?-- I knew - I knew some of them. I mean, I was only there for the three months and I was pretty busy, so it's really hard to sort of try and - you know, when you're teaching, it's pretty full on, so it's hard to get to know everybody, but I did know - I did get to know, yeah, a few of the teachers who were - who were also delivering some of the VET subjects.

Okay. Did you ever get around to discussing what qualifications they had and that sort of thing?-- Well, I don't know if I specifically discussed any of that with anyone, but I guess you make the assumption when you work in an institution like - you know, a-----

No. Well, that's-----?-- -----place that delivers-----

-----that's okay?-- Yeah.

If you didn't, that's okay. I understand. That's fine. That's fine. You - you say in paragraph 10 of your statement that's on page 3 that you were aware of issues with the senior school timetables?-- Yep.

And then in paragraph 11 you say, "Senior staff were advised that the principal was making changes to the timetable." My question to you is - is, firstly, when were you advised that the principal was making changes to the timetable?-- Well, I guess I only found out that I was teaching in the third week and so, of course, you know, the - the - the thing that you do - and because I was also - sorry, I was also attending the - we had regular school assemblies with the senior students, so you'd go along and usually the announcements were made on assembly about, you know, what kids were doing and in the first three weeks you - the - the timetables were still being


sorted out and the announcement would be made on assembly by Ken and whoever else was there and I think Jean was - the principal was also part of those assemblies - that we would be advising the kids there, "Oh, this is what we're doing today", and then timetables - temporary timetables would be put up outside my office-----

Yes?-- -----'cause I was in the senior school section-----

Yes?-- -----and the kids would come and have a look there at what was on for the day or in their program for the week, and - yeah, that sort of changed a few times and we were still waiting for the timetables to be given to us by Jean because they'd gone up to her.

Okay. I put it to you that Ms Illingworth was not responsible for the timetables but instead Mr Duncan was responsible - I'll do this in - in - sorry, that wasn't fair. I put it to you that Mr Duncan was responsible for making up the timetables. Do you accept that?-- Yes.

Okay. My - I've been - sorry. I put it to you that Ms Illingworth only put out timetables towards the end of term - term 2?-- No, that's not true.

No. Okay. So you say that Ms Illingworth was putting out timetables from when?-- From when I started teaching classes, when I was given classes to teach, which was the third week, and I guess I became more aware of it because I was required to teach and I - we would be getting emails regularly from Ms Illingworth to say what the timetable was and there was regular changes.

Okay. Now, you - you also say that you saw Mr Duncan putting up timetables outside your office?-- Yeah. Well, the kids were - we were told on assembly when there were changes made and if there were changes kids were advised on assembly what was happening for the day with their classes, and then also the timetables were put up and I know they were put up because I'd go to my office - the timetables are right there next to my office and they'd fall down on the ground and I'd pick them up and put them back up again, and the kids were always piling up outside of my office and I'd - I'd have to go out and ask them to settle down and be quiet 'cause I was trying to do some work or, you know, tell them to move on and go to class and whatever.

Okay?-- So-----

So what I'm trying - I suppose what I need to understand is - you say Ms Illingworth was sending out new timetables all the time?-- Yeah.

How often?-- Well, it was regularly, like once a week at least, and sometimes I'd have to follow up because I'd see that - I'd find out from other teachers, "Oh, yeah, we've got a new timetable", and I'd say, "Oh, I didn't get one", so I'd have to follow up and find out if there was any changes to my timetables with the students.


Okay. So Ms Illingworth was sending them out by email regularly through the week-----?-- Yep.

-----what was Mr Duncan putting up on the noticeboard?-- Copies of those timetables.

So he was putting up copies of Ms Illingworth's-----?-- Yeah.

Sorry - Illingworth's-----?-- Yep.

-----timetables-----?-- Yep.

-----not ones that he'd developed?-- No. No.

Okay?-- 'Cause we were still waiting on them being finalised by Ms Illingsworth.

Okay. When you say in paragraph 15 of your statement on page 4 - you say, "In seeking advice on what was a set program for senior students not enrolled in core subjects." What do you mean by that?-- Sorry, where are you looking?

Sorry, paragraph 15-----?-- Fifteen, yeah.

It's the third sentence?-- "In seeking advice" - yeah.

Okay?-- Okay.

So what do you mean by "set" - what was the set program-----?-- Yeah.

-----for senior students?-- As - as I referred to before, at most schools the school sets out what the - what's going to be taught over the year, whether it's from the curriculum, or if it's not from the curriculum, then in terms of what the school identifies as - as subjects that they want to teach. So the school subjects, I guess, if you want to call them that. So usually, when you start at a new school you find out, well, what are the expectations of this school to - in - in delivering the education programs within that school. So whether it's standard curriculum or whether it's the additional subjects, you find out what the expectation of the school - school is, and most schools that I've taught at have those there for you, so you can just go and get a hold of that resource, have a look at it, and say, "Oh, yeah, I can see what I'm expected to teach, what the - by the end of this term. I can plan what the kids are going to do, you know, in term 1, in term 2, in term 3 and so forth." When I arrived there - and because of the way that I was sort of plonked into the teaching with a expectation - I didn't expect to teach at all, I wasn't prepared, I didn't know what I was supposed to do, so I had to find out. So I had to talk to teachers. I went and spoke to my supervisor, my immediate supervisor, Mr Shankaran, and he - he sort of said, "Well, you're going to be" - you know, "Here's - here's some stuff you can go and have a look at", so I was directed to certain things. There was the school website which sets out, you know, some broad


sort of objectives and goals to achieve, which is - doesn't give you specific stuff in terms of, like, content, what you're supposed to teach in a program over a - a year period or - and, you know, how you can then determine what you're going to teach at a - on a semester by semester basis. So there was-----

Yes. You said that that - that goes to-----?-- There was nothing-----

That goes to paragraph 18 of your statement, but what I'm-----?-- Yeah, so - so that's-----

-----particularly asking though, in relation to paragraph 15-----?-- Yeah.

-----sorry, is - you say that there's no set program for these - sorry. The set program for - for senior students not enrolled-----?-- Not enrolled-----

-----in core subjects?-- Yep.

I suppose, first of all, if I could ask: what are core subjects? What do you refer to as core subjects?-- Core subjects are the subjects that students do in year 11 and 12 if they want to receive the Queensland Certificate of Education.

So that's, for example, maths, maths 1, science, English-----?-- Yeah, and then-----

-----those sorts of academic subjects?-- Yeah. Yeah, and then-----

Non-VET subjects?-- Yeah, that's right, and the ones that they can get towards the - the score - or points towards going on to tertiary education if that's what they want to do.

Yes, okay?-- I mean, all of this was new to me as well because I hadn't taught in high schools before. I'm a primary-trained teacher, but I-----

So this was your first experience of a high school?-- In high school. But - but I do - I have worked with high school students before in high schools in Far North Queensland, but not specifically in a teaching role as such.

Right?-- I've taught primary school and I've taught in VET.

Okay. Okay. Now, I put it to you that your - your statement that there was no consistency or continuity of learning for students for program - for - for - as the programs were not planned or coordinated. I put it to you that that statement is incorrect. You need to respond to that?-- Well, I don't - I disagree.

Okay. Now, we go back to these programs and something - so on for non-core subjects, et cetera, in paragraph 18 of your


statement and where - and this, again - you just referred to it then in an answer to a previous question. You said that you were directed to websites and other - other resources. Now, you say in the last sentence of that paragraph - you say, "The planning and policy documents I was able to access were not helpful and did not clearly set out what content was required", and so on?-- Mmm-hmm.

So, the planning and policy documents, they were there, but you're saying they weren't clear?-- That's right, so I'm specifically referring to the website, like I said before, they - they set broad objectives, they set out, look, all the visionary stuff, all the stuff that you want to achieve at a higher level, but when you - when you look at coming down to what is actually going to be delivered in the classroom, there was no clear direction in terms of, okay, well, in year 11 and 12 health, for continuity of learning, you're going to start - okay, if we want the kids to be able to, you know, by the end of year 11 and 12, to have achieved certain things in health, we're going to start them here and we're going to work them right through. So that any teacher who comes into the school - a new teacher like myself or Ken, you will be able to pick up whatever - you know, is there and say, "Oh, yeah, I can see what I need to do" and you take that away and you plan accordingly so that you can work the kids from here...to here..., so that by the time they go through year 11 and year 12, they would have achieved, you know, all of these things and there's continuity there, okay. So, the resources that I was directed to were - all schools have resources, every school has huge amounts of resources, you can go to the library, you can - teachers buy their own resources, school collects a range of resources that they think would be great to assist a teacher in delivering a learning program, but a learning program identifies what you're going to achieve over a long period - you know, longer term and specific objectives, so you use those resources to support that program. You don't just sort of direct a teacher and say, "Oh, there's - there's resources for health, go away an work out what you're going to do for health".

Well - well, I put it to you that Mr Shankaran had actually written all of that - all of that material that you-----?-- Yes, and he provided it to me, but there wasn't much in it, it was one page.

Okay?-- Yep.

So, your - your evidence is that the material that was provided by Mr Shankaran in relation to that was one page?-- Absolutely, it's - I've never seen that kind of planning before, it was - yeah, I - that's why I sort of thought, "Well, is this how you deliver health at Djarragun College, well"-----

Okay. Well, I - I put it to you that that's not correct, it is actually in a lot more detail than that?-- Well, he only provided me with a one page document and then he referred me to some of the resource material that the school had gathered-----


Okay?-- -----as well.

COMMISSIONER: Sorry, can I just interrupt-----?-- Yep.

-----just while we're on that point. If you were - if you had have walked into another school and been asked to - to teach health, for example-----?-- Yeah.

-----what would you have been expected - what would you have expected to have been provided with?-- Well, I would have expected quite a comprehensive planning document that sets out what - I mean it - it would probably show what the whole school would do for health, so you would start - so - because this is the prep to - to VET or TAVE campus, you would have set out a - a continual program that starts, so that when - as the kids come through, they - you're - you're developing them, you're building them, you're growing them, but I couldn't see how this - this was the case with Djarragun. So, if you went into a school you would be able to say, "Well, what are the year and 12 - 11 and 12's doing?" "Oh, yep, this is what they're doing for health. There you go". You take that away as a teacher and you plan - you prepare your planning material from that. So, you plan on a term by term basis or whatever the requirement of the school is.

So - so if you were given a folder of information, what would you expect to be in that?-- Well, you'd expect to see, like, some - like a rationale that explains, well, why are you teaching health? What - what's important for that school. You'd have, like, aims and objectives of what the - what the - what's going to be covered. You'd have specific content that the school has said, "Well, we think that this is pretty good for our school, because it meets the - the needs of our students, it meets the needs of the community and - and what we're trying to achieve here and where we want the kids to go". So you'd have something that is quite substantial - it's quite comprehensive that sets out - and it - and it would even identify, like, strategies, resources, you know, and - and breakdown year by year what - at each year level would be covered for that particular subject.

And a one page document that you say you were given-----?-- Mmm.

-----what did it address?-- Well, that's only just for - that's only just for, like, on - I think it was a term.

Mmm-hmm?-- And it was just - basically it's - it's just set down lesson by lesson what was going to be done in week 1, week 2, week 3 or whatever it was, you know, of the term or - with this - the classes that I had. So, I don't know what that is, that just shows you - that - that's just the limited - you know, it gives you just a limited picture of what the kids are doing, it doesn't fit in with the comprehensive sort of picture of what - where the kids are all going to - you know, where we're heading to as a school, as a whole, what are our priorities for that? You know, I didn't see anything like that.


Thank you. Sorry, Mr Pollard.

MR POLLARD: Thank you, Commissioner. Paragraph 19 you say - you make a number of statements in paragraph 19 - you've got that there?-- Yep.

Now, if I could just go to the discussions you had with teachers. You say "Moving around of teachers to different classes was something that occurred often from the comments made to me by a number of my colleagues in senior school, including Ken Duncan"?-- Mmm-hmm.

So, there were other teaches apart from Mr Duncan who were saying that they were moving around a lot?-- The kids were being moved around from class to class. Kids were often sort of asking to be moved-----

Well, it doesn't say - it says "the moving around of teachers to different classes"?-- Well, whether you move teachers or students, it's the same thing, you - you don't have the same class. So-----

Right?-- -----kids - kids or teachers are moved, the - the - the thing is, if kids are continually moved or teachers are continually moved, then you're not going to be able to achieve any kind of continuity of learning or the kids are going to be - you know, it creates - leads to behaviour problems, motivation problems, kids are wondering what's going on, kids need to have structure, regardless of how old they are, but in a school especially, they need to know where you're going with it and what they're going to be achieving at the end of, you know, the time that they spend there.

So, you're saying that there was no structure at Djarragun?-- Well, I saw little, you know, I was very concerned about a lot things.

Okay. Now, in relation to paragraph 20, you say - well, in relation to paragraph 20, who do you say is responsible for the circumstances that you describe in paragraph 20?-- Senior management and the responsibility lies, at the end of the day, lies with the principal. The principal is the accountable officer.

It didn't - you don't believe that there was responsibility to the head of senior school?-- Well, I said senior management, so that means all people - all - all staff who are in that role, but to say that one person was responsible for what I saw at the school of - and, you know, Mr Duncan being there for just sort of six months, I find that very difficult to understand.

Okay. You then say in paragraph 21 that "Whilst at the school I also learnt it was common practise to terminate teachers and staff". How did you learn that it was common practise?-- Well, just by - by talking to my colleagues at school at - on campus-----


But they presumably hadn't been terminated?-- Pardon?

They presumably hadn't been terminated?-- Who presumably hadn't, the people who had left?

The people who were talking to you?-- No, no, that - not - yeah, they hadn't been, but they knew of staff who had been just suddenly terminated or people who had resigned. The high - the turnover of staff was very high.

So - okay. So, you understood - if I could just break this down a bit - you understood that teachers had been terminated in the past?-- Yes, yes.

Right. And you understood teachers had resigned in the past?-- Yes.

Okay. But you hadn't spoken to any of those teachers?-- No, but while I was there the - the head of Wangetti Campus, he - he'd left, so I'm assuming - I assumed he resigned, he went to another job. And there was another staff that resigned while I was there. Ms Illingsworth told me that staff had previously resigned just before I got there, so I knew that there was a number of people.

Sorry, I - I don't mean to be rude-----?-- Yeah, yeah.

-----bear - bear with me. You just said that the head of Wangetti Campus left?-- Yeah.

When - when do you say that occurred?-- I think it was at the end of term, he'd got a job at Yarrabah State - State High School.

Right. So, you say that his resignation from Wangetti to go to Yarrabah is an indication of-----?-- I didn't say that, I just said - you just asked me the question, did people resign and did they - get terminated and I just said "yes" and I just gave you some examples.

Okay. Sorry. You mention at paragraph 22 about inconsistency in disciplinary matters?-- Yep.

And you - you say you raised this with Mr Shankaran?-- Yep.

What - what issues, in particular, did you raise with Mr Shankaran? Was there any examples? Was there specific students?-- Yep, yep, okay. There were students who were not attending classes, so there was - I had - on my roles there were a number of students that hadn't been to classes for a long period of time and then some of them would show up. And then when we had things, like, you know, students who are going - participating in the cultural activities with the Laura Festival or the - going away for sports, such as rugby - or some kids went down to Sydney for a hair expo - some of these students that I were aware of who were in my classes that I'd had issues - issues with, in terms of their


attendance and also their performance in class - I mean bear in mind I only had them for a short period of time, but during that period of time, you know, you - you expect your students to perform to a certain level when they come to school and you're there to support them and when they - when they don't - I mean obviously, you know, behaviour management is all part of teaching and when it comes to their behaviour and they're not performing well or they're not cooperating and they're creating dramas in the classroom for yourself and other students, then you look at, "Well, what - what is the school doing about this as a whole?" I mean of course you look at yourself in the classroom, "What are you do - how do you manage that?" But you also have a whole of school approach, which is what most schools do. In the school, when I raised the issue of kids not attending and I - and/or performing in class with Mr Shankaran and I said, well, you know, "Here are some kids that I know that are supposed to be on the list to go to the Laura Festival for the cultural activity, they're in the dance team or they're in the band or whatever. We need to seriously think about do these - do these students go? Because they should not be doing these kinds of activities where it's seen as a - you know, as a fun thing to do away from school, you don't have to work hard, you can go out and have - hang out, have a good time with your friends, whatever, and, you know, there's not - no - so there's no consistency there in terms of how do we manage students' performance at school and how do we manage students' behaviour? And I've raised that a few times. There was - there was a list put together by Mr Shankaran of the students that were going and it was announced a number of times on assembly - whole school assembly and pointing out to those students, "If you - if you don't perform in class, if I'm getting bad reports from your teachers or whatever, then you're not - you might not go to the festival". But in the end all of those students went. So, for me, how do you - how do you hold a student accountable for their - their behaviour and their performance in school if you're just going to say, "Well, okay, it doesn't matter what you do, you can do whatever you want".

So you would disagree with an assertion that the Laura Festival was actually a reward for attendance and only those who had good attendance records went?-- Sorry, say that again?

I said you would then therefore disagree-----?-- Yeah.

-----with an assertion that the Laura Festival was treated as a reward for attendance records and those who had poor attendance records were not permitted to go?-- Well, of course, because they didn't follow through. I mean they said to those - to all kids, all the students, "We're keeping an eye on, you know, students in senior" - or whoever were participating in these activities - out of school activities - "you're - you're performance at the school contributes towards whether you will actually go and participate in these activities or not". But regardless of whether they participated or not, they still went.

Now, how do you know that Mr Tafoa - Tafea, I apologise-----?-- Yeah.


-----Mr Tafea and Mr Shankaran had not provided their results for the report cards when they went for the Laura Festival?-- Because we had a senior staff meeting and they had gone to the festival, they'd left and we were all getting all our report cards ready. We were having conversations in Mr Duncan's office about what needed to be done, what was still outstanding from teachers.

Mmm-hmm?-- And it was - and the teachers who had provided the information, because we were assisting him in putting the report cards together and these teachers were mentioned as teachers that we were still waiting on information from regarding the student assessment and results.

So you heard that - you heard that from Mr Duncan?-- From the teacher - yeah, from Mr Duncan, but from the teachers who were in that meeting when we were there.

Okay?-- And I'd actually heard it from another staff member as well and it was a bit of a joke.

Okay. Now, in regards to the making of the - of the report cards, you say in paragraph 26 on page 7, "Other difficulties senior school teaching staff found in the preparation of report cards was that the software program used by the school for the report cards was difficult and time consuming to use"?-- Mmm.

Now, was that a new program that you're talking about there, was that one that had not been used before, to the best of your knowledge?-- To the best of my knowledge I think it was used before and it had created problems.

Right?-- And we were all - well, I mean Ken was relatively new and so was I, so we were learning how to use it. We didn't have any support unfortunately, the IT person who was supposed to assist us wasn't there, had gone on holidays.

Well, the evidence was that there's - there's actually two databases, would you agree with that? There's one for the core subjects, as you've referred to them and there's one for the VET programs?-- Yes.

Okay. And so the person who - the evidence that has been presented is that the person who did the VET program database was absent?-- I'm - I'm not really clear on the role of the person that you're referring to, but-----

Right?-- -----from my understanding there was an IT person who helped us with everything and he wasn't there. The other person who was left at the school didn't really - he wasn't familiar with the software and he couldn't really help us much. So we had to try and struggle through on our own.

Okay, could I please ask that the witness be shown the report number 101. Now, just so you know, Ms Hocke, we're not referring to student's names here-----?-- Yep.


-----we're just referring to a number?-- Mmm-hmm.

And I'm not going to ask you anything about that individual student, okay?-- Yep.

But if you could please spend some time getting yourself acquainted with that particular report?-- Yep.

Don't feel the need to memorise any particular facts or figures, it's just general questions I'll be asking?-- Yeah.

Okay. Now, you've been in schools for a long time, is that a report that you would feel comfortable sending home to a student's family?-- As - how it looks now?

Yes?-- No.

No. A comment was made earlier that many - that we have to consider - in previous evidence it was said that we have to consider that these are going to Indigenous families, where they probably can't read or write anyway, would you agree with that statement?-- That - that this is acceptable to go to those parents because they can't read or write?

Yes?-- Of course not.

Right. All right, I'll just leave it at that. Did you ever raise the role or attendance situation that you - you talk about in paragraph 28 - just towards the bottom of that paragraph you say you raised a situation with Mr Shankaran?-- Yep.

Did you raise that with Mr Duncan, who was the head of the senior school?-- Yes, I asked Mr Duncan what happens with the roles, with the students who are on the roles and haven't been in attendance for most of the term and Mr Duncan advised me that the principal - or administration had advised that we just leave them on the role until further notice, until they tell us what to do about it. Because it's usually up to, you know, the administration, in terms of how do we manage that.

Okay?-- And we didn't get - well, I wasn't told what I needed to do, so we just left them on the role.

Okay. Now, in relation to paragraph 29 of your statement, you say - and now, this is on page 8, if I could take you to page 8. And the third sentence and it starts with, "The times that he did not show up a non teaching staff member would have to take his"-----?-- Yeah, yeah.

-----"class"?-- Yep.

And you're obviously referring there to Mr Shankaran-----?-- Yeah.

-----Mr Vimal Shankaran?-- Yep.


And you're saying that when he did teach - sorry no - and - and you question his - his effectiveness as a teacher and-----?-- Yep.

-----and so on?-- Yeah.

Would it surprise you if I was to suggest to you or say to you that he has the best attendance record in the school?

COMMISSIONER: Well, personally or of students?

MR POLLARD: Pardon?

COMMISSIONER: Personally or of students?

MR POLLARD: Of - of students, his attendance record - the attendance record of his classes of students attending class-----?-- Yeah, that would surprise me.

-----is the best in the school?-- That would surprise me.

Okay?-- Because my office is right next to his classroom and I wouldn't think - it's very rare that I'd see the class full.

Okay?-- He'd probably have the same attendance as most of us.

In fact, you're saying - your evidence is that, given this - this - this standard you say of his teaching and so on, that the - the students become disinterested, disassociated with the class and-----?-- Of course.

-----and just cease to attend?-- Well, if students are sitting in class and it's boring, it's repetitive, it's the same old stuff, there's no variety, there's nothing interesting, we all know as teachers, kids get bored pretty quickly, I mean, you know, we've got to compete with the internet and all the modern stuff and if you don't make it interesting, what child - what student would want to come and sit in your classroom.

Yes, yes. And that's - yes, good point. So, if we were tosay, as I said before, that his - his classes have the bestrecord of student attendance in the school, that wouldindicate that he is an effective teacher and that he is makingit interesting, isn't it - wouldn't it?-- Well, from what Isaw with my eye - my own eyes - I mean, you can look atrecords, records - anybody can put anything in a record, butfrom what I actually physically saw while I was there, hisattendance in his classes were about the same as everyoneelse's.

Okay. Now, in paragraph 30 you say at - the last line is,"Mr Ken Duncan cannot be held to be solely responsible for thecollege's operational shortcomings." But he has to be heldsomewhat responsible, doesn't he?-- We're all responsible.

But as a senior manager, as you described him before, he hasto hold a higher level of responsibility than, say,yourself?-- He would have responsibility, absolutely, what


was expected of him in his job.

Okay, okay. In your experience, and obviously your clear andobvious interest in indigenous education, you would havedirect knowledge of the educational outcomes from otherindigenous schools across Queensland, wouldn't you?-- Notnecessarily specifically indigenous schools, but just in terms- like, schools in the State, in the system where you have asignificant number of indigenous students. I mean, therearen't that many schools that are just specificallyindigenous.

No, okay, that's fair enough. And so the educational outcomesfor indigenous students in schools across Queenslandhistorically has not been high, has it?-- There's been lotsof issues.

Yes?-- Yeah.

Yes. But, for example - no, I won't go there, no. But wouldit then surprise you to find that Djarragun College inprevious years and currently has probably - has a comparablyvery high level of educational outcomes compared to otherschools across Queensland and the Northern Territory?-- Yes,that would surprise me.

Okay. Okay. So it's your evidence that as far as you'reconcerned from what you saw, the educational outcomes for thatcollege would be at a below standard-----?-- Yeah.

-----level?-- Yes. I had kids in my class who could barelyread or write.

Yes?-- So, I think that's below the educational standards inschools in other parts of Queensland.

Yes.

COMMISSIONER: When you're asking the witness to compareeducational outcomes, are you talking about schools which havehigh populations of indigenous children or-----

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: -----are you talking generally?

MR POLLARD: No, I'm talking - I'm talking for those schoolswho are either solely indigenous or have very high levels ofindigenous students.

COMMISSIONER: In both the private and public sectors?

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Did you understand that that was the questionthat was being asked of you?-- Not really, but the thing is -okay. In terms of indigenous education around the State, ofcourse indigenous students are behind in - in lots of areas


but - you know, I don't like generalising because not allindigenous students have problems with numeracy and literacyand the basic things in school. A lot of the students we haveat - we had at - we have at Djarragun are from the remotecommunities, from Cape and Torres Strait-----

MR POLLARD: Yes?-- -----and a lot of them have English as asecond or third language, right, so they struggle because theyhave - they speak an indigenous - an Aboriginal English or aTorres Strait Creole at home, so they come to the school andthey really struggle, and they've struggled in primaryschools. So the kids that were in Senior, who have come all -come from the communities, who would've gone to school in thecommunities, would've had literacy and numeracy issues atprimary school anyway. Right.

Yes?-- And a lot of indigenous students do have those kindsof issues, but not all indigenous students have those issues.So in terms of what I saw there, it would be comparable to theschools in the - in the Cape and - and probably some of theones in the Torres Strait, like the outer islands.

Yes?-- Especially if you're looking at literacy, numeracy andwhat level the kids are at.

Yes?-- And, you know, that's - that is somethingunfortunately that's a bit more complicated than sort ofsaying, you know, it's - it's the fault of one school or oneteacher. I mean, it's quite complex.

Yeah, I fully agree with you?-- Yeah, yeah.

I'm not trying to sheet home the problems of indigenouseducation to Mr Duncan?-- Yeah, yeah.

All I'm trying to understand and trying to elicit is whetheryou would - whether you would - if you were provided - sorry, I've got try and focus correctly. Actually, I thinkthat's - I've probably got what I needed, yeah.

COMMISSIONER: Well, I mean, I must confess I'm a little bitconfused because I think then the witness might've beenconfused about the question when you were asking herabout-----

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: -----the educational outcomes of Djarraguncompared to others.

MR POLLARD: Yes, okay, I'll- yes, yeah.

COMMISSIONER: Just, "Would you be surprised if they hadbetter results" or whatever it was. I wasn't certain that wewere on the same page?-- I said I would be surprised - yeah, Isaid I would be surprised because I - I've been a - in otherschools where indigenous students have achieved really highly.


MR POLLARD: Yes?-- I've been involved in programs wherestudent have gone on to tertiary education and have reallyexcellent results and I did not see that at Djarragun. Imean, I couldn't see how the programs and the way that it wasstructured how they could achieve it in the systems that theyhad there. I was very concerned about that.

Okay, okay?-- So I'm very doubtful of them - achieving at ahigh level.

And that's compared to those other like schools?-- State-----

-----in the State?-- Because I've worked mainly in Far NorthQueensland-----

Yes?-- -----and we have the highest number of indigenousstudents in the schools-----

Yes?-- -----yes, I would say that I've seen other schools doway better.

Okay. Thank you?-- Yeah.

Commissioner, I have no further questions.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Vaughn.

MR VAUGHAN: Thank you, Commissioner, just a couple of pointsfor clarification.


RE-EXAMINATION:

MR VAUGHAN: There was some discussion and questions aroundthe turn over of staff at Djarragun and I believe you saidthat the turn over was high?-- Mmm.

Can you just confirm whether it's your belief that the turnover was in any way attributable to Mr Duncan's performanceand work?-- No, I don't think you can attribute it to oneperson. No way.

Okay, thank you. And you mentioned that you didn't believeMr Duncan should take sole responsibility for the shortcomingsof the college in respect of all the matters that you've beenraising, but you did say that he should take someresponsibility, along with others?-- Yep.

Could you maybe just elaborate on that a bit further just toexplain who those other people are?-- I think, like, if youlook at senior management who are in charge of, you know, theoperations of the school, the direction that's set, ensuringthat, you know, you've got adequate staff in place, adequatesystems in place, timetables, educational programs, all ofthat, we're all responsible as teachers, as professionalswithin the school system. But you have to have the leadershipwithin the school to make sure that, yeah, we all know whatwe're doing, we know what the priorities are, we know whatwe're working towards and that wasn't there. And it's notKen's responsibility alone to do that. That - that needs tocome from the principal down through the - the whole - thewhole of the school.

Sure. Thank you?-- Yeah.

And on that basis, then, would you say that it -Ms Illingworth is justified in dismissing Mr Duncan?

COMMISSIONER: No, no, no-----

MR POLLARD: Excuse me, no, I object to that.

COMMISSIONER: -----no, you can't ask that question.

MR VAUGHAN: Okay. No further questions.

WITNESS: I don't know that I can answer that so-----

No, you're right. Ms Hocke, thank you for coming and givingyour evidence, you're excused and you may go about yourbusiness. We might just take a quick ten minute break.

THE COMMISSION ADJOURNED AT 2.38 P.M.

RXN: MR VAUGHAN 3-101 WIT: HOCKE I L

THE COMMISSION RESUMED AT 2.56 P.M.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Pollard?

MR POLLARD: Unusually I stand first on this occasion.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR POLLARD: There is a preliminary matter that my friend hasasked that I address prior to the introduction of Mr Thorpe.I forwarded correspondence to your office and ccd it to myfriend earlier regarding the statement of Miss Linda McKeown.Given the - and also contained a statement of Miss McKeown.Given the fact that the offending paragraph was not adducedand was struck from the statement earlier, I'm not going toseek to rely upon that statement, obviously. However, therewas a number of questions - or a number of answers which cameout in cross-examination, which I certainly wasn't expecting,where certain conversations were alleged to have been had withMiss McKeown and certain statements were alleged to have beenmade by Miss McKeown which we submit are materially important.I have not had an opportunity to get instructions fromMiss McKeown or the college on those conversations. However,I would like to foreshadow that it is highly likely that I'llbe seeking to introduce Miss McKeown as a witness tomorrow inrelation to those statements only, which were adduced in crossexamine - or which a result of cross-examination earlier.Now-----

COMMISSIONER: That was particularly in relation toMr McGrath's evidence, was it?

MR POLLARD: There was two witnesses, Commissioner. Mr Duncanmade - provided two answers which mentioned Ms McKeown, andMr McGrath certainly mentioned a comment, a conversation thathe had with Ms McKeown. None of those conversations ordiscussions were foreshadowed at any point in any of thematerial that's been provided up to this point. I've spokento my friend, and I'll leave their view to be discussed byhim, but I'd certainly be seeking leave to adduce thatadditional evidence tomorrow.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Vaughan?

MR VAUGHAN: Thank you, Commissioner. Yes, we would like toobject to the request, if made of course, that - on the basisthat the three issues, as we understand them to be, related toMr Duncan stating that Linda McKeown had said that once Jimpassed the QCE - is that correct?

MR POLLARD: Yes.

MR VAUGHAN: Which we think can - isn't materially importantand can be dealt with through evidence given by the fourwitnesses that are intended to be called tomorrow, along withthe other two matters that have been raised relating to the

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Vimal Shankaran registering marine aquatic and the review ofthe - the principals in the college in respect of JohnMcGrath. So we don't think that they are materially importantand we think that they can be dealt with responses from thewitnesses that are being called tomorrow.

COMMISSIONER: And you want a decision at this minutebecause-----

MR POLLARD: No, Commissioner, I wanted to foreshadow with youwhat my request was going to be. I wanted, first of all, toadvise that we won't be relying upon the statement that's beensubmitted previously. I'm not seeking an answer here and nowon this point, because obviously I'll only be seeking toadduce the evidence tomorrow. And I actually haven't evenspoken to Ms McKeown yet, so I don't know whether in fact Iwill be. All I'm foreshadowing is that it is likely following- having consideration for the evidence that's been providedthat is new to us, that may occur.

I - I wanted first of all to advise you that we won't be relying upon the statement that’s been submitted previously. I'm not seeking an answer here and now on this point, because obviously I'd only be seeking to adduce the evidence tomorrow and I actually haven't even spoken to Ms McKeown yet, so I don’t know whether in fact I will be. All I'm foreshadowing is that it is likely, following - having consideration for the evidence that’s been provided that - that is new to us.


MR POLLARD: That may occur.

COMMISSIONER: Okay. And the issues that Mr Vaughan identified were the three issues that you were going to ask Ms McKeown about?

MR POLLARD: That’s correct, yes.


MR POLLARD: Yes. And those - those three discrete points. I was not going to seek to introduce any other evidence at all. It was on those three points. And in relation to - in response to what my friend said about there being able to be handled through evidence of others, with respect, they can't, because they weren't privy to those conversations and really without the evidence of McKeown, all we have is a he said, she said. We submit that by allowing Ms McKeown to give evidence in relation to those conversations, the Commission will then be able to may have a greater opportunity to make a decision based on credit and other things in - in relation to that evidence.

COMMISSIONER: Well, obviously I'm not going to give you a decision at the moment. I'll need to reflect on what's been said. However, can I say this, Mr Pollard, in the event that you decide to call that witness to address those three issues, I would require you to give an outline of the evidence orally

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before Ms McKeown gives that evidence, so that Mr Vaughan is aware of the evidence that will be given and has the opportunity to take instructions. I'm not saying I've made a decision on the point, I'm just saying, if I decide to allow you to do it then you will be required to make an oral statement about what the evidence of Ms McKeown will be.

MR POLLARD: Certainly, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Mmm-hmm. All right. Can we proceed with Mr Thorpe?

MR VAUGHAN: Yes, please. Thank you.


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MICHAEL JOHN THORPE, SWORN AND EXAMINED:

MR VAUGHAN: Thank you, Mr Thorpe. Could you just start by confirming your full name for the Commission, please?-- Michael John Thorpe.

And also your address, please?-- 20 Pioneer Street, Manoora.

Thank you. And your former position at the college?-- Head of the VET department.

Thank you. And if I could, Commissioner, just hand up this statement.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Thorpe, that’s the statement that you’ve made in this matter?-- Yes.

Yes. Do you wish to make any amendments or corrections, additions, to the statement?-- Not at this stage, no.

Are the contents true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?-- Do you want me to read right through?

Well, it's your statement. You'd better - if you're telling me it's-----?-- If it's the same one that I had, well it's very close, yeah.

Mmm-hmm?-- Sorry, I didn’t bring my glasses.

Okay. So, the contents are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief, yes?-- Yes.

Okay. I don’t have a signed copy, so we might ask you to sign the document that you have and I'll make the statement as Exhibit 7.

MR VAUGHAN: Is it - sorry, Commissioner. Did you say Exhibit 7?

COMMISSIONER: Exhibit 8, I think, isn't it.

MR VAUGHAN: I believe it is.

COMMISSIONER: Yes.


COMMISSIONER: Is that the evidence-in-chief of this witness?

MR VAUGHAN: It is, thank you, Commissioner.

XN: MR VAUGHAN 3-105 WIT: THORPE M J

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Pollard?

CROSS-EXAMINATION:

MR POLLARD: Thank you, Commissioner. Mr Thorpe, in your statement you say that you're employed in the position of head of Vocational Education Training for nine days?-- Yes.

And how many days did you actually spend on campus?-- Probably seven and a-half, eight.

Seven and a-half or eight?-- Yes.

Did you spend a day at Wangetti?-- Spent half a day at Wangetti, yeah.

Did you spend a day at Kuranda?-- Spend half a day at Kuranda.

Okay. Did you spend a day at Yarrabah?-- No.

No. Did you spend a day at Cairns State High School?-- No.

Did you spend a day at any other educational facility?-- I just probably spent hour to two hours at the Smithfield High School.

Two hours?-- Roundabout, yeah, on the way to - on the way to there I dropped into Smithfield High School.

Okay. Mr Thorpe, I put it to you that out of your nine days, you actually attended the college for four days; is that correct?-- No.

No. So, if someone was to come in and give evidence at a later point and suggest or say that you spent more time outside the college, than you did on campus during your brief nine-day occupation of your position, you would disagree with that?-- I would disagree with that.

Okay. In paragraph 6, you say that - and this is on page 2 of your statement - it's - and I'm going to refer specifically to the last sentence starting on the third, fourth line - at the end of the fourth line - you say, "However, in my pre-interview with Ms Illingworth, I was informed by Ms Illingworth that she had undertaken the role as head of VET but was now too tired and overworked to give the position its much needed attention." I put to you that Ms Illingworth was never the head of VET; is that yes or no?-- Well, I put to you that she is the head of VET.

Okay. I put it to you that that is incorrect?-- No.

Okay. I put it to you that she never said that she was too tired and overworked, to give the position its much needed attention?


COMMISSIONER: Sorry, are you agreeing with that statement or - when you're nodding your head - you have to give an audible answer?-- Okay. No, I'm disagreeing. That’s what Ms Illingworth said to me-----

MR POLLARD: Okay?-- -----in our chat, yes.

Okay. I put it to you that it is incorrect to suggest that there were no records or documents in relation to student class lists for VET at Djarragun College?-- Which section are you on?

That’s paragraph 9?-- Yeah.

I say - I - I put to you that that statement - that paragraph is entirely incorrect?-- Well, I disagree that you're disagreeing that it's incorrect.

COMMISSIONER: In effect, what you're saying is what you have in the paragraph 9 is correct?-- Is correct, yes.


COMMISSIONER: It's hard to respond to a negative sometimes, mmm.

MR POLLARD: It is?-- On my behalf, my negative?

COMMISSIONER: No, his negative?-- Yeah, thanks.

Mr Pollard's, not his-----?-- Yeah, thanks.

Mr Pollard's negative, yes.

MR POLLARD: Your understanding - in paragraph 14, you say that your understanding was that Ms Illingworth had been the VET sector coordinator for some time. I put it to you, Sir, I'm sorry, no. I'll ask you, how did you come to the conclusion that Ms Illingworth was the VET sector coordinator?-- Which one you on again - 10?

No, the paragraph 14?-- Paragraph 14?

Yes. Paragraph 14, the second sentence there. It starts "My - my understanding was that Ms Illingworth had been the VET sector coordinator for some time"?-- Well, that goes back to the number 6, the same question.

So you're saying that - that your understanding came from that discussion with Ms Illingworth. Okay?-- That's - Ms Illingworth mentioned to me that she'd taken over the position because it needed a lot of attention and it was dropping, and that she was looking for a head of a VET and to single out the position, that's why she made the position head of VET. There wasn't a head of VET before me. There was just a coordinator of VET. So the position became where I was offered the head of VET and that she had undertaken the role.


Now, in your, you say, seven and a-half days at the college-----?-- Eight.

I'm sorry, I thought you seven and a-half days?-- Approximately eight. Probably eight, yeah. More to eight, but I didn't single - I've never singled it out to two hours on a half a day, but it would probably be eight days.

Okay. So in your eight days at the college how much of that was actually during term time?-- During-----

Term time?-- Well, every day would have been during term time.

Well, what if I suggest or say to you that you started your employment in the last week of term?-- As in start the last week in - where the students were there?

Yes?-- Yes. The second week I was there there were still the students there and there was still all the teachers there, all the staff were there. The official school holidays started the week after I - which would probably - you'd find that in any school calendar that you get - which would tell you that because they were still doing school records when I was there. Students hadn't received their grades or anything and all - all students - the majority of the students were there still.

I put it to you that given your very brief tenure you're in absolutely no position to comment in any way on the - in dealings or interactions or dealings with staff at Djarragun College?-- Most people would probably think that as well after eight days, but-----

Thank you?-- -----during those eight days I did have interviews with all staff members, a majority of staff members. I'm a trained professional in the - in the position and, yeah, I think after eight days after anyone could - most people who are trained would form a professional opinion on what's going on there, yeah.

Okay. Now, the evidence of Mr Curtis you address in paragraph 20. You - this is on the last page of your statement, paragraph 5. You say that you agree with his statement that the administration paperwork for the senior school was primarily non-existent. Now, you agree with that statement in - in relation to the VET sector, is that correct? That's - that's what you're saying there?-- That's what I can deal with, is the VET sector.

Yes. And you're saying that there was no to limited existing data for the four or five years of VET operations?-- From my time there the evidence that I was shown there was nothing.

Okay?-- There was nothing on the - in the office, there was nothing in files, there was nothing in - on E copies, E files, no nothing-----

Okay?-- -----that I was offered.


Now, you then say in a nutshell - you - you then quote Mr Curtis?-- Yep.

And then you say "In short, Mr Curtis' statement supports a lack of historical internal data for not only the VET sector, but also the secondary school." Now, you just said you can't actually comment on the secondary school, so you agree that you can't - you don't actually know about the secondary school?-- I'm only supporting Mr Curtis' statement.

Okay?-- Mr Curtis made the statement, not me.

I put to you that Mr Curtis is actually saying - referring to the period that Mr Duncan was in charge and not the previous four or five years?-- In charge of-----

The VET sector and secondary school?-- In charge of - I was on the understanding that Campbell's a coordinator and had limited to a month that he was - my understanding was that Vimal was - there was Simon Cotton, then Vimal, Ken was given a very brief tenure and then Ms Illingworth who told me that she'd taken over, but; yeah, I support him. That's what Mr Curtis said. There was no - I can't comment for the secondary school. I'm only agreeing when Mr Curtis said he actually - Mr Curtis is actually saying here that there was no data.

All right. Commissioner, I have no further questions.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Vaughan?

MR VAUGHAN: Thank you, Commissioner. I have no further questions.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Thorpe, thank you for coming and giving your evidence. You are excused?-- Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMISSIONER: Mr Vaughan, that concludes the evidentiary case.

MR VAUGHAN: That's correct, Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, we might finish there for today then and we'll commence with your witnesses tomorrow, Mr Pollard.

MR POLLARD: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: As I mentioned to you on Friday, I have a matter listed at 9 o'clock in the morning. It will be in this room and we will commence this hearing at 10 a.m. The commission will adjourn until then.


THE COMMISSION ADJOURNED AT 4.15 P.M.TILL 10.00 A.M. THE FOLLOWING DAY


TD153[2009]-D3-IRC-RPP

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