Sunni - Shia Debate 2014 Abu Jaiyana Vs Ahmend Zulfiqar Ali January 1 – 4 2014 at Facebook.com

8/13/2019 Sunni - Shia Debate 2014 Abu Jaiyana Vs Ahmend Zulfiqar Ali January 1 4 2014 at Facebook.com

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Mainstream Islam (Ahlus-Sunnah) Vs.

Shia Sect (12ers Shias) Debate 2014

January 14, 2014 at Facebook.com

https://www.facebook.com/groups/173322239409219/permalink/591258720948900/

"Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali Abu Jaiyana please have a choice in these three topics forour debates:

1) Who are true Muslims - Shia or Sunni?...See More

Like ShareUnfollow Postabout an hour ago Nur Haifah Umpa MasacalandAbu Rashad Cusainlike this.

Abu JaiyanaAhmed Zulfiqar Ali We have to post first our presentations in Shia Vs Sunni Where IsThe Truth group, then we can repost here in your group.December 31, 2013 at 7:31pm Edited Like

Abu Jaiyana Here is my proposal, subject to your approval:

FORMAT:

PART I

1. Presentation of Arguments by Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali2. Presentation of Arguments by Abu Jaiyana

PART II - Cross-Examination

3. Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali to ask questions to Abu Jaiyana (5) questions maximum

4. Response by Abu Jaiyana

5. Abu Jaiyana to ask questions to Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali (5) questions maximum

6. Response bycAhmed Zulfiqar Ali

PART III - Rebuttals

7. Rebuttal by Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali
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8. Rebuttal by Abu Jaiyana

PART 4 - Conclusions9. Conclusion by Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali10. Conclusion by Abu Jaiyana

DEBATE RULES:=============================1. Presentation of arguments should not exceed 2000 word count (This can be checked by Microsoftoffice word count).

The post for the presentation of Speaker should not exceed 500 words which would be posted beforethe presentation of Arguments. This 500 word count is not part of the 2500 word count limit for thePresentation of Arguments

In case Facebook refuses to accept a 2500 word count post at the same time, the debater/poster isallowed to divide his response in two or three posts right after the other but should not exceed the

word count limit. Once posted, no editing is allowed.

2. Cross-exam questions should be limited to 5 questions maximum and all questions should notexceed 500 words. All 5 questions are to be posted at the same time by the questioner.

3. Responses to all questions should not exceed 2000 words

4. Rebuttals should not exceed 2000 words

5. Conclusions should not exceed 1500 words

6. No edition of posts is allowed. Violation to this would render the violator lost by default or bytechnicality.

7. Both Debaters is given 24 hours to reply. Failure to do so the Moderator/Admin will automaticallydeclare him lost by default.

8. Links posted as reference/evidence is included in the word count allotted for each debater.Scriptural quotations should be indicated, book, chapter, and verse/s.

9. No ad hominem (personal attacks) shall be allowed or posting of porno photos or anythingindecent, or disrespectful to any faith or religion.

10. Since there is no Debate Moderator both debaters are expected to follow the format's sequence,and the rules correctly and in good faith.

11. Any violation to the above format and rules will render the violator lost by default.

The rules shall take effect as soon as Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali has posted his self-introduction and openingarguments.December 31, 2013 at 7:34pm Edited Like 1


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about an hour ago Like1

Abu JaiyanaNote: The Shia RafidaAhmed Zulfiqar Alidid not fulfill his words that he would re- posthis posts in the special debate group created ( Shias often lie - they simply call it taqiya).

So the debate is now being continued in their forum. Thanks for the Admin for pinning the debatethread - I hope it will not be deleted just like my last debate with him in their other forum.

about an hour ago Like

Abu JaiyanaAhmed Zulfiqar Ali

DEBATE: Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali (Shia of Prophet Muhammad(s)) vs Abu Jaiyana (Sunni of umar al-khatab)

This is the agreed topic of the debate:

"Are Shias true Muslims?:

Affirmative : Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali

Negative : Abu JaiyanaLike Unfollow Post 1142 December 31, 2013 at 10:18pm

58 minutes ago Like

Abu JaiyanaAhmed Zulfiqar Ali Abu Jaiyana here is my presentation of the TopicJanuary 1 at 2:22am Like 3

Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali A) Bismillahi Rahmani Rahim

I begin in the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah the Lord of the universe.

To Allah alone we seek help, mercy and forgiveness. And we seek refuge with Allah from the evil ofour own souls, from our bad deeds and from misguidance. Whomsoever Allah guides will never be ledastray, and whomsoever Allah leaves astray, no one can guide. I bear witness that there is no godworthy of worship but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and Last Prophet. I bearwitness also that Allah had chosen 12 Caliphs/Imams/Teachers to function as Guidance to the rightpath after the death of Prophet Muhammad(s) - the first was Imam Ali(a) and the 12th is ImamMahdi. They are all from the purified ahl-Bayt (Family) of Prophet Muhammad(s)Pease and Blessing of Allah be upon Prophet Muhammad(s) and the 12 Caliphs/Imams/Guides from
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his purified ahl-Bayt.

My presentation in this debate is all about showing to those who are truth seekers that Shia Muslimsare the true and best Muslims in this planet because they are in the right guidance. Why they are inthe right guidance? The answer is because after the death of Prophet Muhammad(s) they followedonly the 12 authorized Caliphs/Imams/Teachers/Guides from the purified Family of our believedProphet Muhammad(s). They never followed any people who are not unauthorized, misguided orhaving lack of Islamic knowledge. About Islam and its doctrines, the Shia Muslims only listened andfollowed the 12 purified members of the ahl-Bayt who are the genuine successors of ProphetMuhammad(s). These 12 will function as next Masters of the Ummah (acting as Caliphs, Imams,Teachers, Guides, etc. of the ummah).

These 12 Imams or 12 Caliphs from ahl-Bayt are the only authorized teachers of Islam after the deathof Prophet Muhammad(s). They will teach us the genuine Sunnah of Rasul(s) and to interpret for usthe difficult verses of the Quran. About the question of what is true Islam and what is the correct/trueaqeda, the Shias never listened to those people who are not authorized by Allah swt to teach Islamand its aqeda. That is why among those people who claimed to be Muslims in this planet only those

Shia Muslims who followed (i.e. Shias) the 12 Caliphs/Imams/Teachers/Guides from ahl-Bayt are inthe right path - hence they are the only true Muslims of the ummah.XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxJanuary 1 at 2:47am Like 4

57 minutes ago Like

Abu JaiyanaAhmed Zulfiqar Ali B ) Illegitimate Sects of Islam Had Emerged Only After the Death ofProphet Muhammad(s):

Take note that there were no sects or sub-groups of Islam during the lifetime of ProphetMuhammad(s). During his time, there is only one Islam. The divisions and sects of Islam came onlyafter his death. The main reason is that after his death, Islam is under the mercy of every Muslim whowanted to preach Islam with their own knowledge and own understanding about the Quraan andSunnah of Prophet Muhammad(s). Their own teachings and interpretations constitute what theyclaimed is the Islam of Prophet Muhammad(s). The danger is that If they have wrong interpretation orlack of true knowledge, their so called Islam is then a mixture of truth and falsehood or bidaah Islam.We know is that those unauthorized teachers and interpreters outside the purified ahl-Bayt differedvery much to each other. They have different opinions or interpretations of the Quran and Sunnah ofProphet Muhammad. Their differences in opinion and interpretations of the Quraan and Sunnah is the

main reason why there are many sects or groups in Islam that came out after the death of ProphetMuhammad(s).

We have to take note that there Are People Who Are Authorized By Allah As Guidance of the Ummah.So to avoid misguidance of the ummah after the death of Prophet Muhammad(s), Allah must haveauthorized some people as next Masters of the Ummah to act as the Caliphs/Imams/Teachers/Guideswhom the people must be obeyed after the death of Prophet Muhammad(s). They must be chosen orauthorized by Allah to ensure the Ummah have still sure guidance to the right path after the death of
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Prophet Muhammad. They will teach the correct aqeda of Islam. They will teach us the genuinesunnah of Prophet Muhammad(s). As for the proof of the existence of these authorized people, Allahin the Quraan had testified:

O' you who believe! Obey Allah, and Obey Apostle and Those from among you who are givenauthority (by Allah)."(Quran 4:59)January 1 at 2:48am Edited Like 5

Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali C) Only Allah swt Will Choose People To Act As Guidance of The Ummah After TheDeath Of Prophet Muhammad.

Shias believe the Only Allah will choose who are the Guidance Of The Ummah. Shias believed that our12 Caliphs/Imams from ahl-Bayt were chosen by Allah swt for that purose. But no any single sunniwho believe or will claim that their caliphs or imams were chosen by Allah swt.

The belief that only Allah swt will choose or authorize People to guide the ummah are imbedded in theQuran. There is no ayat in the quran telling us that the Guides of the ummah were chosen by the

people. All are chosen by Allah swt:

1) Holy Quran 32:24"And We appointed from among them some Imams who guide by our authority since they werepatient and believed firmly in Our Signs."

2) Holy Qur'an 21:73.

And We made them Imaams (leaders), guiding (mankind) by Our Command, and We inspired in themthe doing of good deeds, performing Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and the giving of Zakat and of Us(Alone) they were worshippers.

3) Holy Quran 13:7"(O' Muhammad!) You are but a Warner, and for every community there exists a Guide (i.eImam/Calip/Teacher of Islam)."

4) Surah Maryam, Verse 58:

Those were they unto whom Allah bestowed His Grace from among the Prophets, of the offspring ofAdam, and of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Nuh (Noah), and of the offspring of Ibrahim(Abraham) and Israel and from among those whom We guided and Chose (i.e. the chosen 12Caliphs/Imams/Guides from ahl-Bayt).

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57 minutes ago Like
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Abu JaiyanaAhmed Zulfiqar Ali D) Shias Are The True Muslims Because They Followed TheAuthorized Teachers of Islam

Authorized Teachers of Islam means they are authorized guidance to the right path of Islam after thedeath of Prophet Muhammad(s). Following them will surely make you a true Muslim. Like the ShiaMuslims, all sects of Islam had at least claimed to be Muslims. But others like among the sects of thesunnis will claim that they are the only true Muslims. Here I will show that the true Muslims are theShia Muslims because they followed the 12 Caliphs/ Imams from Ahl-Bayt who are authorized by Allahswt as teachers and interpreters of the Quran and Sunnah. Those who followed the Quran andSunnah as per their own interpretations and reject the interpretations from the purified 12 Caliphs/Imams from ahl-Bayt of Prophet Muhammad(s) can never be a true Muslims. They can be calledmisguided Muslims or incomplete Muslims because they did not follow the 12 Imams/Teachers fromahl-Bayt of Prophet Muhammad(s). Because the only people who are our true guidance to the rightpath after the death of Prophet Muhammad(s) are only the purified members of the ahl-Bayt ofProphet Muhammad(s).Proof that Only the Ahl-Bayt of Prophet Muhammad(s) are our Guidance to the right path are thefollowing:

1) Tirmidhi, Volume 6, Chapter 31, Hadith No. 3788:Zaid bin Arqam, narrated that the messenger of Allah . said: "Indeed, I am leaving among you, thatwhich if you hold fast to them, you shall not be misguided after me. One of then is greater than theother: (First is) The book of Allah is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and (the second is) myfamily, the people of my house (ahlul bait), and they shall not split until they meet me at the hawd, solook at how you deal with them after me." (Sahih).2) Sahih Muslim, Book 031: Hadith # 5920

A narration attributed to Yazid b. Hayyan reports:I wentalong with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side,Husain said to him: Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger(may peace be upon him) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayerbehind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from

Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent myage and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah'sMessenger (may peace be upon him), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narratedo not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca andMedina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now toour purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death)from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but

I am leaving among you TWO WEIGHTY THINGS that if you will follow you will never go astray: the

one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allahand adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second arethe members of my ahl-bayt (household) I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.

He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of hisfamily? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of hisfamily are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereuponhe said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the
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offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaidsaid: Yes."

Take note of this: As per the above hadiths just quoted, ONLY THE AHL-BAYT OF PROPHETMUHAMMAD(S) ARE OUR GUIDANCE TO THE RIGHT PATH. THOSE WHO ARE NOT FROM AHL-BAYT

ARE MISGUIDANCE. SHIA MUSLIMS ONLY FOLLOW THE 12 IMAMS FROM AHL-BAYT, THEREFORESHIAS ARE THE TRUE MUSLIMS.

SUNNIS DID NOT FOLLOW THE 12 IMAMS FROM AHL-BAYT AFTER THE DEATH OF PROPHETMUHAMAMD(S). THEY HAVE NO IMAMS FROM AHL-BAYT WHO WILL TEACH THEM THE CORRECTISLAM AND GENUINE SUNNAH OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD(S), THEREFORE SUNNIS ARE NOT TRUEMUSLIMS. THEY ARE DEVIATED FROM TRUE GUIDANCE BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO 12CALIPHS/IMAMS/TEACHERS/GUIDES FROM AHL-BAYT.January 1 at 2:51am Like 5

54 minutes ago Like

Abu JaiyanaAhmed Zulfiqar Ali E) Total Numbers Of Allahs Authorized or Chosen Masters Of theUmmah (ie. Caliphs/Imams/Guides/Teachers) Should Be 12 People Only:

Shias are true Muslims because we have 12 Caliphs/Imams/Guides/Teachers from ahl-Bayt. Sunnisare not true Muslims because they have no 12 Caliphs/Imams/Guides/Teachers from ahl-Bayt .Our proofs That Islam has Only 12 Caliphs/Imams/Guides/Teachers are the following:

1) I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamicworld)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) willbe from Quraish."( Sahih Bukhari: Judgments (Ahkaam),Volume 9 Book 89 Hadith # 6785)

1) Sahih Bukhari 89.329Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He thensaid a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

2) Sahih Muslim Book 020: Number 4477, 4478, 4480, 4481, 4482, 4483:Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "The (Islamic) religion will continue until theHour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh.

3) Sunan Abu Dawood Book 36: Number 4266 :

The Prophet said: "This religion remains standing until there are twelve vicegerents over you, all ofthem agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh."

4) Sunan al-Tirmidhi Chapter of Fitan, 2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225:The Prophet said: "There will be after me twelve Amir (Prince/Ruler), all of them from Quraysh."

Shias have 12 Caliphs all chosen by Allah swt while sunnis have only 4 caliphs all chosen by somepeople. Therefore Shias are the true Muslims.


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Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali F) The Word Being Used Will Tell us Who are True Muslims

After the death of Prophet Muhammad(s), those who followed the 12 Imams/Caliphs/Teachers/Guidesfrom ahl-Bayt are called Shia. The word Shia is used in the quran and hadith. It is being used by Allahswt describing the followers of Noah(a) and Moses(s) and being used by Prophet Muhammad(s) todescribe the followers and supporters of the 12 Imams from ahl-Bayt.The Word Shiah In The Quraan:1) Allah (swt) in the Holy Qur'an states this fact by saying: "Wa in-na Min Shi-ah tihi la-Ibarheem"(and one of his - Prophet Noah's, Shi'ahs/followerWas Prophet Ibraheem). Holy Qur'an (37:83).

2) The second time Qur'an uses the term Shi'ah is about the follower of Prophet Musa (as) when theywere still captivity in Egypt. This is how the Holy Qur'an says it: "Fas-ta-gha-tha hul lazee howa minShi-ah tihi...." ( the one who was the Shi-ah/follower of Musa (as) asked him for help...). Holy Qur'an

(28:15).The Word Shiah in Hadiths:1) Holy Prophet [s] said to Ali [as]:

O Ali! You will come infront of Allah. And your Shia will be pleased and liked (favourite) and yourenemies will be tied up infront on him in anger. And then Ali placed his hands behind his head on hisneck to demonstrate in the manner his enemies will be tied up.

Sunni reference: Sawaiq al Muhirqah, page 5192) The Prophet (SAWA) was asked by Ibn `Abbas about the verse of Allah in the Quran, And theForemost Ones are the foremost ones: they are the ones brought near to Allah [Quran 56:10,11], towhich he replied, This refers to Ali and his Shi`ah - they will be the foremost to enter Paradise, theones brought near to Allah through His Magnanimity over them.[Amali al-Tusi, p. 72, no. 104]

But there is no word sunni mentioned in the quran and hadith. That is bidaah word used bymisguided Muslims. Allah and His Prophet never used that word sunni. Allah never called a singleindividual as sunni. So even from the name itself, the Shia Muslims are the true muslims and sunnisare not true Muslims but fakes.

END OF MY PRESENTATIONJanuary 1 at 2:55am Like 5

54 minutes ago Like

Abu JaiyanaAhmed Zulfiqar Ali Now its your turn Abu Jaiyana. You can transfer all my posts also toyour debate group if you likeJanuary 1 at 3:01am Like 4


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Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali Abu Jaiyana I will post my presentation in your own debate group after you postyour presentation here.January 1 at 9:49am Like 2

Abu Jaiyana hahaha, i really smell something fihsy here.

Last night, a special debate group was created for our debate, and my opponent joined the group andthe rules and format of the debate was presented andwas agreed upon by my opponent by way of no objection.

Now, he still cant depart from here why??January 1 at 11:10am Like 1

Abu Jaiyana He already have made an ad hominem and a strawman fallacy for me by labelling me assunni of Umar etc.

That is his pathetic way of telling us that he is not really followers of the Ahlul Bayt of the Prophet

s.a.w. but the Ahlul Bayt of Ibn Sabaa, the hypocrite Jew who founded Shiaism.January 1 at 11:10am Like 3

Abu Jaiyana Anyway, he promised to post his presentation in that special group when after I haveposted mine here. For the sake of having this debate done, I will again concede to his fishy andchildish demand.

The format and the rules of this debate are there in that special group and was agreed upon. Thatmeans that the posts here are mere dummies.

We will presumed that the rules and the format of the debate will be followed by my opponent.

My presentaion starts in my next post.

Thank youJanuary 1 at 11:11am Like 2

53 minutes ago Like

Abu JaiyanaAbu Jaiyana I begin by mentioning the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Salutations to our beloved Prophet Muhammad s.a.w., to the members of his noble family, to hisnoble companions, and those who follow their footsteps until the Last Day.

After that:

Greetings to all readers; as-salamu alaikum to all the Muslims, and good day to the Shias, and to allnon-Muslims.


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The topic of this debate is very important and critical especially for the Shias. Many, if not all of them,think that they are the true Muslims despite being a minute splinter group, or a small fraction of theMuslim Ummah. Many people also think that they are one of the sects in Islam.

However, after thorough study and scrutiny of the belief system of the Shias (Twelvers Shias), itclearly shows that they are not even among the Muslims, but they belong to another religionaltogetherShiaisma pseudo-Islam i.e. FAKE ISLAM.

A BIG DISPUTE ABOUT THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE RELIGION ITSELF

Argument # 1SHIAISM TEACHES A FALSE FOUNDATION OF ISLAM i.e. Imamat

What Is Islam, What Are Its Religious Foundations?

Muslims since the very beginning have been taught about what Islam is and what are its foundationsor pillars. In a famous, and authentic hadith, the Prophet s.a.w. said that Islam is based on the

following:

1. To testify that there is no deity worthy to be worshipped but Allah, and that Muhammad is theMessenger of Allah,2. To establish the prayer i.e. the 5 obligatory daily prayers,3. To pay the Zakah i.e. for those who are able,4. To perform Hajj in the sacred house i.e. in Makkah5. To fast in the month of Ramadan

Also, in another very famous hadith called the hadith of Jibreel a.s. when the Prophet s.a.w. wasasked about what Islam is, he enumerated the above-mentioned pillars. In the same hadith, he wasalso asked about Iman, and Ihsan and he enumerated what are those, and they are famous andknown to every Muslim who has studied the basics of Islam.References:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 47Sahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0001

However, later group who is believed to be founded by a mushrik Jew, Abdullah Ibn Sabaa, hasmodified the above-mentioned prophetic teaching about the foundations of Islam, and they inventedthe so-called doctrine of Imamat.

From this doctrine of Imamat, the noble companions especially the major companions, and the wives

of the Holy Prophet of Islam are being abused and cursed by this group, and from Imamat, the Shiascommitted a MAJOR SHIRK which made them be declared as not just non-Muslims but MUSHRIKS orpolytheists. In this doctrine of Imamat, the Shias couldnt see that what they are doing is Shirk.January 1 at 11:11am Like 3

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Abu JaiyanaAbu Jaiyana What Is Imamat (Imamah)?

It simply means that AFTER THE DEMISE OF THE PROPHET S.A.W. THERE WILL BE 12 INFALLIBLE

(ERROR-FREE) INDIVIDUALS WHICH ARE DIVINELY APPOINTED BY ALLAH TO BE THE CALIPHS OFTHE MUSLIMS, AND THOSE WHO REJECT ANYONE OF THEM IS A KAFIR.

In Shiaism religion, it is an USOOL-Ud-DEEN or foundation, pillar, of the religion i.e. Pillar of Islam.

In order for us to prove that this doctrine of Imamat is a made-up teaching about the pillars of Islam,here are my challenges to my opponent during his rebuttal in sha Allah:

1. Give us an authentic hadith from the Prophet s.a.w. in which he said that Imamat is one of thefoundations or pillars of Islam.

2. In case you reject our hadiths, as most of the Shias do, then give us an ayah/verse of the Quranwithout any addition which says that after the Prophet there will be 12 infallible persons and thatMuslims should follow them.

Ladies and Gents, most of the Shias reject the agreed upon authentic books of hadith of the Muslimsbecause if they dont, then their Imamah is FALSE.

It is so because many of these hadith in no certain terms, explicitly indicates the legitimacy of theCaliphate of Abubakr As-Siddiq and the clear indications of the inclination of the Prophet s.a.w that

Abubakr should be his successor, though he left it to his companions to decide the matter. It is anIslamic way of consultation called SHURA.

Moreover, Ali bin Abi Talib r.a. admitted that the best persons after the Prophet is Abubakr As-Siddiq,and then Umar Al Farook r.a.that is in a very clear/unambiguous words of Ali r.a.

Examples:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 20:

Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya: I asked my father ('Ali bin Abi Talib), "Who are the best peopleafter Allah's Apostle ?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar. " I was afraidhe would say "Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person.


The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died,another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs whowill increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?" Hesaid, "OBEY THE ONE WHO WILL BE GIVEN THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE FIRST. Fulfil their (i.e. theCaliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put undertheir guardianship."
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The Prophet said, "Amongst the people preceding you there used to be 'Muhaddithun' (i.e. personswho can guess things that come true later on, as if those persons have been inspired by a divinepower), and if there are any such persons amongst my followers, it is 'UMAR BIN AL-KHATTAB."

Compare with the following hadiths:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 7Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 11Sahih MuslimBook 031, Number 5878Sahih MuslimBook 031, Number 5879Sahih MuslimBook 031, Number 5877Sunan Abu Dawood Book 40, Number 4632Sunan Abu Dawood Book 40, Number 4635

Everyone who knows the basics of Islam that Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim (Sahihayn) are the bestbooks of Hadiths for the Muslims, and then Sunan Abu Dawood.

The texts are so explicit about the legitimacy of the Caliphate of Abubakr and the admission of Aliabout the superiority of Abubakr.

But for the Muslims, it is political Issue. Had the companions of the Prophet chosen Ali r.a. as the firstCaliph, we dont have any problem with it so it is not a major issue in the foundation of Islam.January 1 at 11:12am Like 3

Abu Jaiyana The Shias cant help themselves but to reject the authentic sayings of the Prophet s.a.w.though 90% of the Muslim Ummah accept them to be true. They say that those are false narrationscould be made up by the Ummayyad Clan.

The five pillars of Islam mentioned by the Prophet in those ahadith were/may be madeup ahadithby the Ummayyads. Let us ride this Shia argument for a while for the sake of argument.

Okay then, we will not use any hadith because they are not reliable as the Shias claim. However, wehave to agree that the Quran is our common and ultimate source of knowledge.

The Quran says that it is a book of guidance for the believers, therefore we could say that if there issomething important that Allah wants us to believe in or to do, He s.w.t. would have mentioned it inthe Quran, otherwise people could not be blamed for not believing of something they dont know

because Allah didnt mentioned it, especially if it is one of the foundations of the religion.

I can provide clear-cut verses from the Quran which mention Salah, Hajj, Fasting, Zakah, and etcetera, without making any minute interpretation that they are mandated by Allah. I will provide thoseayats in case my opponent would ask for them.

Now, let us turn the deal to my Shia opponentProvide for us a SINGLE VERSE FROM THE QURANIN WHICH ALLAH INFORMS/MANDATED THE MUSLIM TO FOLLOW 12 INFALLIBLE INDIVIDUALS


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AFTER THE PROPHET i.e. Imamat/Imamah.

Remember that particular this teaching in Shiaism is an USOOL-Ud-DEENit is a primary issue unlikethe Furu ud-deen. It has to be explicitly written in the QuranWHERE IS IT written???

If my opponent cant provide any verse from the Quran as requested, then know and understand thatTHEIR RELIGION IS A MADE-UP, CONCOCTED, PSEUDO-ISLAM RELIGION, and therefore Shias arenon-Muslims.

Notice folks that my opponent has already quoted ayats from the Quran which only Shias think that itis a verse for their Imamat doctrine, however as you have seen, NONE OF THOSE AYATS says afterthe Prophet there will be 12 infallible persons who are divinely appointed by God to be the Caliphs ofthe Muslims and that Muslims should follow and obey them.

What we need to see is a clear-cut verse just like the verses of Salah, Fasting, Hajj, Zakah, et ceterabecause they are the foundations/pillars of the Religion.

Even if I will not refute those ayats in my rebuttal, they would not mean anything to this debatebecause not one of those ayat says about the 12 infallible persons after the Prophet that Muslimsshould follow.

The Sahih hadith about the 12 Caliphs has been brought up again, but my opponent simply dug a holefor himself because only 4 of their Imams became Caliphs, therefore the prophecy about the 12Caliphs doesnt fit to their 12 Imams it is an evidence for the Sunnis, not for the Shias. I willexpound my response in my rebuttal in sha AllahJanuary 1 at 11:12am Like 3

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Abu JaiyanaAbu Jaiyana Argument #2Shiaism teaches and practices polytheism (Shirk)therefore they are Mushriks (polytheists), they are not Muslims because Shirk is the antithesis ofTawheed.

As I have mentioned in my argument #1, because of the false doctrine of Imamat, Shias became andclassified as not only non-Muslims but sadly Mushriks (polytheists).

Here are the evidences from their best book of hadith Al Kafiwhich is the Sahih Bukhari for the

Shia:

The Imams possess all the knowledge granted to the angels, prophets, and messengers. - Al-Kafi,p.255

The Imams have knowledge of whatever occurred in the past and whatever will happen in the future,and nothing is concealed from them. Al-Kafi, p. 260


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There is not a single truth possessed by a people saved that which originated with the Imams, andeverything which did not proceed from them is false. Al-Kafi, p.399

The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. Al Kafi volume 1 page 258

Muhammad Rida Al Muzaffar said in his book Faith in Shia Islam page 32:

We believe that like the Prophet, an Imam must be infallible, that is to say INCAPABLE OF MAKINGERRORS OR DOING WRONG EITHER INWARDLY OR OUTWARDLY FROM HIS BIRTH TO HIS DEATH,EITHER INTENTIONALLY OR UNINTENTIONALLY because THE IMAMS ARE THE PRESERVERS OFISLAM AND IT IS UNDER THEIR PROTECTION

Those polytheistic and false belief by the Shias are refuted by Allah in the Quran, and by the Prophets.a.w:

Al Quran 31: 34. Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends downrain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs, nor does anyone know what it is that he will earn on

the morrow, nor does anyone know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge andHe is acquainted (with all things).

Sahih Muslim Volume 9, Book 93, Number 476:

The Prophet said, "The keys of the unseen are five and none knows them but Allah: (1) None knowswhat is in the womb, but Allah: (2) None knows what will happen tomorrow, but Allah; (3) Noneknows when it will rain, but Allah; (4) None knows where he will die, but Allah (knows that); (5) andnone knows when the Hour will be established, but Allah."

So folks, who is telling the truth, Allah and His messenger s.a.w. or the Shias? I leave that for you todecide for yourselves.

I believe that ALLAH S.W.T. AND HIS MESSENGER S.A.W SPOKE THE TRUTH, while the SHIAS ARELIARS.January 1 at 11:12am Like 2

Abu Jaiyana Here is one of the many examples of the polytheistic rituals of the Shia:

Mustadrak al-Wasaa'il of al-Tabrasi, page 310:

Then you place your right cheek on the earth and you say a hundred times in prostration, "OMuhammad, O Alee, O Alee, O Muhammad, suffice me (in my needs) for you are both sufficers, and

aid me for you are both my helpers." And you place your left cheek on the earth and you say ahundred times, "Reach me (to deliver me)" and you repeat it many times, and you say, "(I seek)rescue, rescue, rescue" until the soul is disconnected, then you raise your head and through Hisgenerosity, Allah will fulfil your needs, if He wills.

We also know, and many Shias admitted that they call their Imams in their graves for helpthis is awell-known Shia practice. They simply call it tawasul. The 90% of the Muslim Ummah calls it as graveworship, not a tawasul.


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Allah, again refuted this type of worship in the Quran:

Verily those whom ye call upon besides Allah are SLAVES LIKE UNTO YOU; Call upon them, and letthem listen to your prayer, if ye are (indeed) truthful! 7:194

Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help 1: 5

So Allah here clearly has emphasized that when it comes to acts of worship that we should call on HimALONE. Those whom we call for help in our acts of worship besides Allah are but SLAVES of Allah likeus.

Therefore, the Shias are committing Shirk in their acts of worship by WORSHIPPING THE CREATION,i.e. their Imams, instead of the Creator, Allah.

There are so many stuff to be said about the religion of the Shias, but due to limited word count, thetwo arguments I presented above are sufficient enough to declare those who follow this polytheistic

religion to be not only non-Muslims but pure Mushriks.

Summary.

1. The Shias are teaching a false foundation (pillar) of Islam : the Prophet didnt ever mention whenhe was asked about what Islam is, and there is no explicit ayah from the Quran which says that therewill be 12 infallible persons after appointed by Allah as Caliphs for the Muslims.

2. Shirk belief of the Shias from their best hadith book Al Kafi, giving divine attributes to their Imams,and the Shia practices and rituals of asking help from the people of the grave instead asking help from

Allah alone as taught by Allah in the Quran.

Based on those facts, I conclude that Shias are not only pseudo-Muslims, but Mushriks in the literalmeaning of the word.

May Allah guide them to the true Islam. Ameen!January 1 at 11:13am Like 1

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Abu JaiyanaAhmed Zulfiqar Ali Here are my Five questions for my sunni opponent Abu Jaiyana :

1. After the death of Prophet Muhammad, who among the companions being recognized anddesignated by Prophet Muhammad(s) as the GUIDANCE TO THE RIGHT PATH, to the extent that theProphet (s) recommended the Ummah to follow THEM so that the Ummah will never be misguidedafter him? Do you know who are those people designated as GUIDANCE TO THE RIGHT PATH afterthe death of Prophet Muhammad(s)? If you know other than the ahl-Bayt please show your proofsthey were explicitly designated as GUIDANCE TO THE RIGTH PATH.


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2) Do you have proof that Abu Bakar, Umar and Othman were being declared by ProphetMuhammad(s) as the Next Three Masters of the Ummah so that it will be obligatory for us to followthem? Are they belonged to the DIVINELY CHOSEN 12 Caliphs (as declared by Prophet Muhammad(s)to the Ummah] WHO WLL RULE ISLAM right after the death of Prophet Muhammad(s) till the Day ofJudgment?

3) Were the sunni caliphs like Umar, Abu bakar and Othman were purified by Allah swt and beingdeclared by Prophet Muhammad(s) as GUIDANCE TO THE RIGHT PATH to be followed by the Ummahafter his death?

4) The Practice or Sunnah of Allah as written in the Quran swt is that Allah is the One Who willchoose Leaders to function as GUIDANCE OF THE PEOPLE. Sunni aqeda stipulate that you have noguidance after the death of Prophet Muhammad(s) because you disregard and did not follow theDESIGNATED GUIDANCE OF THE UMMAH WHICH IS THE AHL-BAYT OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD(S).Considering your sunni aqeda that says after the death of Prophet Muhammad(s) there were noDESIGNATED GUIDANCE FROM ALLAH swt - then how can you reconcile it in your wild claim that you

are now in the right guidance? What is your basis you are true Muslims because you are in the rightguidance?

5) The ahl-Bayt were designated by Allah swt and His Prophet(s) AS GUIDANCE TO THE UMMAH. Butby having failed to show or not able to prove in your presentation that the followers of the Sunni cultof umar al-khatab have followed the 12 Imams from ahl-Bayt after the death of ProphetMuhammad(s), then how are you sure your Islam or aqeda you believed now are the right andcomplete ones? Who taught you (or from whom did you get your teachings) about Islam, aboutsunnah and about your aqeda?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxRemember this: We are only confident to be true Muslims if we did able to follow Right Guidance afterthe death of Prophet Muhammad.January 1 at 4:56pm Like 1

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Abu JaiyanaAbu Jaiyana Thank your for your questions.

ANSWER TO QUESTION #1

You are contradicting your own words by asking me who among the companions of the Prophet weredesignated as guidance to the right path, yet in your question #4 you already have said that in theSunni aqeedah there were no designated as guidance to the right paththat is your own fallacyyou are contradicting your own words heheheh.

Moreover, you committed a strawman fallacy by saying that in Sunni aqeeda, the Prophet didntdesignate as guidance to the right paththats 100% ignorance my friend.


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Here is what the Prophet have said: After me, cling to my Sunnah and the way of the rightly-guidedCaliphsSunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith #4590

Who are those rightly guided Caliphs of the Muslims, tell me if you dont know, I will gladly tell youokay?

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 11:Narrated Jubair bin Mutim: A woman came to the Prophet who ordered her to return to him again.She said, "What if I came and did not find you?" as if she wanted to say, "If I found you dead?" TheProphet said, "If you should not find me, GO TO ABU BAKR."

Ali bin Abi Talib r.a. himself said that Abubakr and Umar are the best people after the Prophet s.a.w.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 20:Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya: I asked my father ('Ali bin Abi Talib), "Who are the best peopleafter Allah's Apostle ?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar. " I was afraid

he would say "Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person.

Talqi al Kafi vol.2 p.428:The best among this Ummah after its Prophet is Abubakr, then Umar Said by Ali on a pulpit inKufa Iraq

Sahih Volume 5, Book 57, Number 34:

'Ali invoked Allah's Mercy for 'Umar and said, "O 'Umar! You have not left behind you a person whosedeeds I like to imitate and meet Allah with more than I like your deeds. By Allah! I always thoughtthat Allah would keep you with your two companions, for very often I used to hear the Prophetsaying, 'I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went (somewhere); I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar entered (somewhere); andI, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went out."'

So Im so sorry for your lack of information about Sunni sources. I will refute your hadith thaqalayn inmy rebuttal in case you will appeal to that.

Moreover, it is another STRAWMAN fallacy of yours when you say that Sunnis dont follow the purifiedAhlul Baytthats totally misguided assertion. We follow the Ahlul Bayt, but we dont cherry-pick whothe members of the Ahlul Bayt are.

In the Quran, in 2 ayats, Ahlul Bayt includes primarily the wives, then the children. But hey, Shiasabuse and curse the wives of our beloved Prophet especially his most beloved one, the Mother or the

Believers Aisha bint Abubakr.

The Quran testifies that the wives of the Prophet are Mothers of the Believers, but you Shias abuseand disown themtherefore you are not believers because no sane believer would abuse his/her ownmother.

In summary, your question #1 is based on a STRAWMAN Fallacy, ignorance of the texts, and


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ludicrously, self-contradictory statements of yours.January 1 at 9:10pm Like 2

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Abu JaiyanaAbu Jaiyana ANSWER TO QUESTION #2

Thats again another STRAWMAN fallacy no Sahih Sunni sources which says Abubakr, Umar, andUthman r.anhum are three masters of the Muslimsthat is your own fabrication my friendno bodycalls them the three masters, except you.

The Caliphate of Abubakr was decided and finalized by the Sahaba after mutual consultations amongthemselves, they have understood from the words of the Prophet that no one could excel Abubakr,and in one occasion when a woman asked the Prophet where should she go in case she wouldnt find

the Prophet (because of death), the Prophet ordered her to go to Abubakr Sahih Bukhari Volume 5,Book 57, Number 11.

You might argue that Ali was not there in the Shura, yes?

Had he been there he would surely vote for Abubakr because Ali believed and said that the bestpeople after the Prophet is Abubakr and Umar - Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 20, andTalqi al Kafi vol.2 p.428

Interestingly, Ali did give pledge of allegiance to Abubakr. Ali also named one of his sons as Abubakr.So it is clear that the person that you are promoting on, Ali, was actually an avid fan of Abubakr.

You just have to read our texts my friendyour cherry-picking approach to our texts wont help youat all.

What about the sequence of Abubakr, Umar, and Uthman?

Since Ali recognized the legitimacy of the Caliphate of Abubakr, then the Caliphss decision must berespected, because it is a commandment of the Prophet. He appointed Umar Al Farook due to thenecessity of the situation, and again Ali did agree to it and he loves Umar very much - Sahih Bukhari

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 26.

Ali also married his daughter Umm Khultum bint Ali to Umar. More to that he also named one of hissons as UmarWow! What a close family ties!!!

Were Abubakr, Umar, and Uthman qualified? I think so.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 24:Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet once climbed the mountain of Uhud with Abu Bakr, 'Umar and'Uthman. The mountain shook with them. The Prophet said (to the mountain), "Be firm, O Uhud! Foron you there are no more than a Prophet, a Siddiq and two martyrs.


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I can give you more prophetic prophesies about Abubakr, Umar, and Uthman if you likejust tell meokay?January 1 at 9:10pm Like 2

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Abu JaiyanaAbu Jaiyana ANSWER TO QUESTION #3

Define what is purified first because it is a broad termit could mean many things. If you arereferring to Surah 33, then you have to include the wives of the Prophet because they were the mainsubject of the whole passage.

Anyway, if the titles of the three men which are given to them by the Prophet himself doesnt meanpurity for you, then I dont know what would. Examples:

As-Siddiq for Abubakr which means the quickest to believe. Allah also mentioned him in the Quran asthe (Have no fear for Allah is with Us) Surah 9:40

Al Farook for Umar The distinguisher between right and wrong. The Prophet also said that Satanwould run away from UmarWhat a noble person he is indeed. That is why Ali had said so manylofty things about Umar.

Dhun-Noorayn for Uthman which means Owner of the Two Lights, etc.

By the way what was the special name given by the Prophet to Ali r.a. which Ali loved very much?


I like this question because it is self-defeating

If it is indeed the way of Allah to appoint leaders for the people despite clear guidance from theQuran, then the question is for youWhere is it in the Quran that Allah said that after the Prophet,there will be 12 infallible individuals and that Muslims must follow them?

You are guilty of using the ayat of the Quran out of contextAllah did choose Prophets, andMessengers before the finality of the final message. But there is nowhere in the Quran that Allah saysthat He will appoint 12 infallible leaders after the Prophethad He did so, we surely would have

found it.

What is more interesting in this false assertion of the Shias is the fact that those whom Allah hadappointed (supposedly) did not became leaders of the Ummah. Some of them were prisoners of theCaliphs, and they didnt become Caliphs at all.

Do these mean that Allahs will was frustrated, defeated by the people?? This is but ludicrous Shiatheory!


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Moreover, Al Hassan r.a. who was supposedly appointed by God according to the Shias, heSURRENDERED the Caliphate to Muawiyah for whatever reason for whatever reason, why would asupposed divinely appointed Caliph surrender the Caliphate to an evil person?

Furthermore, the supposed first Caliph Ali r.a. did give a pledge of allegiance to Abubakr, and namedhis son as Abubakr.

This Shia theory makes God, and His supposed chosen people very, very bad:

1. Gods will didnt materialize. God willed that His supposed 12 infallible people will be the Caliphsafter the Prophet but it didnt happen. His will was frustrated by the will of His creation. Very funny!

2. Those supposed 12 infallible Caliphs appointed by God after the Prophet s.a.w. turned out to beemasculated people; instead of fighting for their divinely given position, they gave pledge of allegianceto their supposed enemies instead, gave up their claims of Caliphate and resorted to taqiya in order tosave their skinsdidnt God know this before He appointed them???

What a BLASPHEMOUS yet ludicrous doctrine indeed!

Oh, my basis that I am a true Muslim is irrelevant to topic of this debate. Even if I am not a trueMuslim, that would not make Shias true Muslims which is the topic of this debate.

Anyway my basis is that I am following a belief system in which its foundation are clearly written inthe Quran, and explicitly mentioned by the Prophet in many sahih ahadith, and I dont commit shirklike you do.


You really dont understand the topic of this debate, or you simply dont know how to debate, do you?

The topic of this debate is NOT about proving that Sunnis are true Muslims, hello!!!

The topic of this debate is about proving that Shias are true Muslims, and I am in the negative side,so my task is to provide evidences why Shias are not Muslims, and to refute your claims for the Shias.

Had the topic be like this Who arethe true Muslims, Sunnis or Shias? then you would be correct ofsaying that I did not make any argument for the Sunnisbut that is not the topic of this debate myfriend.

It seems that you dont understand the topic of this debate which you yourself had suggested

I seriously doubt that you could understand English very well, with all due respect to you.January 1 at 9:11pm Like 2

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Abu JaiyanaAbu Jaiyana Cross-exam

1. You confirmed the correctness of my argument in my presentation that Imamat in your religion

means to believe in the 12 Infallible persons divinely appointed by Allah after the demise of ProphetMuhammad s.aw.

I will reiterate my question in my presentation.

Give us a single ayah from the Quran without any addition that Allah did appoint your 12 infalliblepersons after the Prophet s.a.w.

It is an USOOL Ud-Deen in your religion, so it must be explicit in the Quran just like Salah, Zakah,Fasting,a nd Hajj.

2. Our belief about the (5) pillars/foundations of Islam even without resorting to any hadith can beexplicitly seen in many ayats of the Quran. I can give you those ayats if you need them. Furthermore,the Prophet s.a.w explicitly enumerated those 5 foundations/pillars of Islam in many sahih ahadith. Itmust be so because it is of prime importance in understanding the religion.

Anent to that, my question to you is this:

Can you provide any authentic hadith in which the Prophet said that the Usool/foundation of Islam areTawheed, Nubuwah, et cetera and Imamah?

3. Do you agree with what your prominent scholars say in their books such as:

AL HUR AL'AMILY in Alwasa'el , volume 20, page 104AL TABRASI in Mustadrak Al Wasa'el, volume 3, page 532SHARAF'DEEN ABDUL HUSSAIN MOSAWY in The book of Al Muraja'aat , Muraj'ah number 110

AYATOLLAH AL KHOMEINI in Al- Hukumah Al-Islamiyyah page 72

that Al Kafi is the best book of HADITH of the Shias because it is the most accurate and its hadiths areauthentic (Saheeh)?

If your answer is yes, then thank you.If your answer is No, then my Question is what the best ofhadith in Shiaism is, and what is your scholarly evidence for it.

4. You quoted the prophecy of the Prophet that there will be 12 Caliphs after him, but he emphasizedthat they will be from the Quraish which surely include people not from the Ahlul Bayt because theAhlul Bayt is but a mere fraction of the Quraish Clannot all Quraish are members of the Ahlul Bayt.

In connection to that Prophecy, how many of your 12 Imams became Caliphs of the Muslim Ummah?

5. Would you confirm that in Shiaism, Shias ask help from their Imams in their graveyards and youdont consider it as Shirk but merely a kind of tawasul to the pious dead people?
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Quran, my opponent is demanding that in order for the Shia of Imamate to be true, the 12 Imams ofthe true Muslims should be explicitly stated in the quran. He just exposed his ignorance by demandingthat. It just shows that he do not know that all genuine aqeda of Islam is just generally mentioned inquran and the details were given only by Prophet Muhammad(s). For example, Allah in the quran toldus to pray, yet there is no mention in the quran that prayer is composed of 5 phases having 2, 4, 4, 3and 4 rakaats. Those details of the prayer were given only by Prophet. Same with other aqeda such asfating, hajj or Imamate. Allah mentioned in the quran He would appoint Imams but the detail of thatImamate was given only by Prophet Muhammad . That is why we can read in the hadiths that Islamhave 12 Imams/Caliphs until Day of Judgment. Those fake Muslims are expectedly ignorant of thedoctrine of Imamate because they reject the 12 Imams from ahl-Bayt and follow instead those peoplewho are not our guidance to the right path. No wonder fake Muslims like my opponent are of coursemisguided people.

The reason why sunni cult is so ignorant of the concept Imamate is because they replace it with thefake caliphate founder by umar al-khatab. Sunnis simply disregard the 12 genuine Caliphs from ahl-Bayt and followed fake caliphs. True Muslims have 12 Caliphs as per the divine Leadership or Imamateof true Islam of Allah and His Prophet (s) while the fake Muslims have only 4 caliphs ( 3 fakes and 1

genuine) as per the fake islam founded by umar al-khatab.

Answer to Your Question #2:

This question is related to #1, hence my reply to #1 applies in this question #2. Both Shia and Sunnihadiths testifies the doctrine of Imamate. Imamate simply means Leadership In Islam. ThisImamate is composed of 12 Imams from ahl-Bayt in the genuine Islam. These 12 Imams are called 12Caliphs in the hadiths collection of sunni cult and I already quoted them in my first presentation.

Again as a gentle reminder, we differ in many aspects of aqeda because we follow the 12 rightlyguided caliphs from ahl-Bayt but sunnis followed misguided imams and caliphs who are not from ahl-Bayt of Prophet Muhammad(s).January 1 at 11:43pm Like 2

48 minutes ago Like

Ahmed Zulfiqar AliThis is my rebuttal:

Bismillahi Rahmani Rahim

I ALREADY STATED IN MY PRESENTATION, PROPHET MUHAMMAD(S) DESIGNATED TWO WEIGHTYTHINGS. IF WE WILL FOLLOW THEM BOTH WE WILL NOT BE MISGUIDED AFTER HE WILL LEAVE USON EARTHTHIS ARE (1) THE HOLY QURAN AND (2) HIS PURE AHL-BAYT.

We Shia Muslims have 12 Imams/Caliphs/Teachers/Guides from ahl-Bayt that is why we are in theright path, hence we are the true Muslims. My sunni opponent has no Imam/teacher/Guide/Caliphfrom ahl-Bayt, hence his cult is just a joke. His cults followers are misguided, hence fake muslims.

Very sad indeed.

Now it is very clear that my opponents arguments and opinions have no value at all because hisopinions are all coming from those people who are not authorized teachers of Islam or not designated
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as guidance to the right path. He is not a follower of the 12 Imams from ahl-Bayt. His hadithscollections are not narrated via the 12 Imams of ahl-Bayt. His arguments then are not worthanswering, but for the sake of the readers I will answer them here nothing that I cannot answer themall due to the limit of words imposed by my opponent in this debate.

A)

My sunni opponent was very surprise I called him sunni of umar al-khatab that is because he is notaware that like umar, he also do not want to follow the 12 Imams from ahl-Bayt. He only want theQuran, reject the ahl-Bayt as caliphs because he is also dreaming to be one of the fake caliphssomeday. Now I will invite again my opponent to whom he should obey:Prophet Muhammad(s) or umar?

1) Prophet Muhammad(s) said we have to follow Quran and Ahl-Bayt:

The holy prophet(s) said: O' people! I leave behind among you two very important things that if youwill follow them you will not be misguided after me: the BOOK OF ALLAH, and my "AHLUL BAYT".

Sunni Reference:Sahih Tirmidhi, v.2 p. 308; Sahih Muslim vol.5 p. 272 and vol. 7 p.122; Sunan of Abu Dawud,p. 307and more than 30 other books of hadiths.

2) Umar said we have to follow only the Quran, NO NEED TO FOLLOW AHL-BAYT (hence Abu Jaiyanais a sunni of umar or follower of the sunnah of umar:

Ibn 'Abbas reports: When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whomwas 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which youwill not be misguided after me." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; sothe Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarreled. Somesaid "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray,"while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's

Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate thatAllah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement andnoise."

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol7:Book 70: Hadith #573

My opponents false argument that he is in the right path or a true Muslim is because the followers ofhis cult are in majority. He has a childish dream that if a cult has many followers then it is the truth asif numbers can make false a truth. But Allah in the quran knew that majority of people are misguidedand only few are in the right path. My opponent has the face to brag that his cult is the right pathbecause they are many or in majority, but Allah swt will expose my sunni opponent as just liar:

1) And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah's Path. Theyfollow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie. (Quran 6:116)


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2) Then I will come to them from before them and from behind them and on their right and on theirleft, and You will not find most (i.e. majority) of them grateful [to You]." (Quran 7:17)

The true Muslims are few or in minority because only few are thankful of the guidance of Allah swt:

1) And few (i.e. minority) of My servants are grateful. (Quran 34:13)

2) "We shall reward those who are grateful" (Quran 3:145)

Yesterday at 1:12am Like1

Ahmed Zulfiqar AliC)

My opponent raised the issue of Imamate because he is ignorant of it. His ignorance is a result of notfollowing the guidance of the ummahthe 12 ahl-Bayt Imams. Allah in the Quran had declared Hewill appoint Imams. But my opponent wants an ayat from quran stating there are 12 Imams of Islam.That request had expose him as ignorant . He does not know that Allah swt only give generalstatements and only Prophet Muhammad(s) will give the details. All the details of the aqeda of Islamlike tawheed, prayer, fasting, hajj, imamate, etc. are not mentioned in the Quran but only given byProphet Muhammad(s). As for the Prayer, he said prayers are 5; as for the Imamate, he said Islamhas 12 Imams, as for the fasting, he said it should be 30 days, etc.

If my opponent can give one ayat from quran that prayers are 5 only, that will be the time I will givehim an ayat that imams are 12 only. Lols.

D)

My opponent also brags his SUNNI hadiths as genuine. But those hadiths had reached to them not via

the 12 Imams of ahl-Bayt. His hadiths are all narrated from non-ahl-Bayt originators hence theoriginators of his hadiths are not authorized by Prophet Muhammad(s) as GUIDANCE TO THE RIGHTPATH. At best sunni hadiths in my own estimation only composed of 10% true and being used byShias as our evidence also, 30% mixture of truth and falsehood( Shias used the truth as evidence andreject the false) and 60% pure false (Shias will never used it as evidence). In this debate, myopponent used 60% false hadiths and I am using here the 10% truth from sunni hadiths.

The sunni hadiths stating that their first 3 fake caliphs are better than Imam Ali(a) are obviously afalse or fabricated hadith. Sunni caliphs were chosen by men but Shia Caliphs were chosen by Allahswt because only Allah choose Leaders for Islam. Example how Allah swt chose Moses and hissuccessor Aaron:

(Moses said: "O Allah) assign me a vizier from my family, (that is) my brother Aaron (Haroon)...,(Allah) said: "We granted your requests, O Moses.(Quran 20:29-36).

Allah, Exalted, also said:"Surely We gave the book to Moses and assigned his brother Aaron as his vizier.(Quran 25:35).

Allah also said:"... And Moses said unto his brother Aaron: Take my place among the people.(Quran 7:142).
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Base from the Quranic concept of Musa and Aaron were chosen by Allah swt, we know for sure thatImam Ali(a) was chosen by Allah THas ROUGH Prophet Muhammad(s) as the first Imam/Calip/Masterof the ummah:

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron (Haroon) toMoses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"

Sunni References:Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56, 5.700Sahih Muslim, Arabic, v4, pp 1870-71


Ahmed Zulfiqar AliE)

My opponent also had ridiculously insisting that abu bakar was hinted to be first caliph becauseProphet Muhammad(s) had said to a woman that if he is not around, then look for abu bakar. Justonly 1 woman being hinted or informed? What kind of hint or what kind appointment is that? If thathadith is true it obviously about his wife aisha. If a woman looking for aisha he can approach ProphetMuhammad(s) or her father abu bakar if he is not arround. That hadith is not related to leadership ofIslam. Only 1 woman and my opponent Abu Jaiyana knew the hint but the rest of the sahabas are notaware of that hint.

If Prophet Muhammad(s) want to appoint his successor, he would not hint it to a single woman but hemust announce it in public in front of all the sahabas like what he did in Ghadir Khum declaring Imam

Ali(a) as THE NEXT MASTER OF THE UMMAH. Prophet Muhammad(s) announced his successor inghadir khum the following:

1) The Messenger of Allah declared: "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (byAllah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both ofthem, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what theyhave over themselves?People cried and answered: "Yes, O Messenger of God.Then Prophet (S) heldup the hand of Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O God, lovethose who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."

Sunni references:Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43Khasais, by al-Nisai, pp 4,21al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397

2) Prophet Muhammad (s) said: "Ali is from me and I am from Ali and he is the guardian of everybeliever after me"
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Sunni references:Sunan Tirmidhi, volume 2, page 298. Mustadrak al-Hakim, volume 3, page 111. Sawaiq al-Muhriqa,page 122, published in Egypt .

3) "It has been revealed to me that `Ali has three exclusive merits: that he is the chief of the Muslims,the Imam of the righteous, and the leader of those whose foreheads radiate with the mark of faith."

Sunni references:Mustadrak al-Hakim page 138, Vol. 3. Kanz al Ummal, page 157, Vol. 6, is hadith 2628. Also quotedby al-Barudi, Ibn Qani`, Abu Na`im, and al-Bazzar.

4) "Whoever obeys 'Ali, obeys me, whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, whoever disobeys 'Ali disobeysme, whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah"

Sunni references:Kanz ul Ummal, hadith numbers 32973-32976,Mustadrak al Hakim Volume 3 page 123, Riyadh ul Nadira Volume 3 page 110

F)

My opponent quotes the hadith having Prophet Muhammad(s) recommending to follow the his sunnahand the sunnah of the rightly guided caliphs for our guidance to the right path. The sad fact is that myopponent does not know who are these rightly guided caliphs. He is imagining only 4 caliphs (3 fakesand 1 genuine). But the only people designated by Prophet Muhammad(s) as GUIDANCE TO THERIGHT PATH are only his ahl-Bayt. Therefore these rightly guided caliphs to be followed for ourguidance are no other than the 12 Imams from ahl-Bayt of Prophet Muhammad(s). These 12 Imamsare the genuine rightly guided Caliphs of Islam. They are the Caliphs of the true Muslims of no otherthan the Shia of Prophet Muhammad(s) and his ahl-Bayt.

G)

My opponent also attacked the true Muslims by barking to us using his ignorance andmisunderstanding about the knowledge of Prophet Muhammad(s) and the 12 Imams of the al-Ghayb/unseen. He said true Muslims are shirk because they believed Prophet Muhammad(s) and the12 Imams have knowledge of the unseen because he said only Allah knew the unseen. The ignoranceof my opponent hinders him to understand the Quran stating that only Allah knows the unseen butHe also share some knowledge of the unseen to his righteous servants (i.e. Prophet Muhammad and12 Imams) to whom He wills. Allah swt said:

"Who can intercede with Him except the cases He permits? He knows what is in front of them (the

Prophet and the Imams) and what is behind them, and they encompass nothing of His knowledgeexcept Whom He will.(Quran 2:255)For sure Allah swt had shared His knowledge of the unseen to His Messenger Prophet Muhammad(s)as stated in the Quran:

1) He (i.e. Allah swt) possesses the Ghayb and He does not discloses His Ghayb to anyone except tosuch a Messenger(i.e. Prophet Muhammad) as He is well-pleased with." (Quran 72:26-27).


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2) "And he (Muhammad) is not niggardly the Knowledge of the Unseen.(Quran 81:24).

As expected Prophet Muhammad(s) will these knowledge of the Ghayb/unseen to his ahl-Bay - thefirst of whom is Imam Ali(a), then he passed it to his son Imam Hassan(a) down to the 12th ImamMahdi(a). By that, the 12 Imams from ahl-Bayt had inherited the knowledge of ProphetMuhammad(s). That is why the first Imam Ali(a) was known as the gate of knowledge.

The rest of the 12 Imams would certainly inherit those prophetic knowledge whose source is Allahswt. As to the fact that the first Imam Ali(a) inherit the God-given knowledge, Prophet Muhammad(s)said:

Ali(a) said: The Messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him, said: I am the city of knowledgeand Ali is its gate. (see hadith in al-Tirmidhi and al-Hakim on the authority of Ali )


Abu JaiyanaRebuttal

I begin my rebuttal by mentioning the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Folks, our Shia friend Ahmed Zulfiqar Ali, did exactly what I said in my presentation.

First, he couldnt show a single verse from the Quran where it says that after the Prophet s.a.w. therewill be 12 infallible persons that Muslims must obey and follow. THEREFORE, my argument is true thattheir so-called USOOL-Ud-Deen i.e. foundation of the religion is false because it is nowhere mentionedin the Quran.

The mandates about Salah, Zakah, Fasting and Hajj are so explicit in the Quran WHY CANT WEFIND A SINGLE AYAH ABOUT A COMMANDMENT OF ALLAH TO FOLLOW 12 INFALLIBLE PERSONS

AFTER THE PROPHET S.A.W.?

Had the Shias included JIHAD, or MARRIAGE instead of Imamah, it would have been very acceptablebecause we can find explicit verses in the Quran in which Allah mandated the Muslims to dobutImamah, is nowhere in the Quran.

Second, I provided at least two sahih references wherein the Prophet s.a.w. explicitly enumerated theUsool-Ud-Deen (pillars of Islam) which are the Shahadatayn, Eshtablishing the Prayer, Giving theZakah, Performing Hajj, and Fasting during RamadhanI asked my opponent to show a single hadithin which the Prophet s.a.w. included Imamah in the Usool-Ud-Deen or pillars of IslamMYOPPONENT PROVIDED NOTHING!!!

THEREFORE, my argument is true that the Shia Imamah is a false pillar of Islam. It is an INVENTION,a LIE, a FALSE BELIEF that the Shias wanted to introduce to Islam.

14 hours ago Like

Abu JaiyanaWhat was the fallacy did he make?

He showed ayats from the Quran in which Allah informed us that He made Prophet Ibrahim a.s. a
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leader for the people and so were his children. From that ayah, my opponent alluded that Allah musthave appointed their 12 Imams after the Prophet s.a.w.

Folks, anyone who has a minute knowledge about argumentation could easily see the fallacy of theargument. It is a classic example of a logical fallacy called NON SEQUITUR. Non Sequitur fallacymeans the conclusion does not logically follow the previous statement.

Have you seen the BIG, BIG JUMP from Allahs making of Prophet Ibrahim and his children as leadersof the people to following 12 infallible persons after the last Prophet s.a.w?

Folks, the promise of Allah to Prophet Ibrahim a.s. that his children would also become leaderswas/has already been fulfilled by Allahall Prophets who came after Prophet Ibrahim were allIbrahims children, that is why he is called the father of faith i.e. of the three Abrahamic faiths,Juadaism, Christianity, and Islam.

The verse has nothing to do whatsoever about Allah mandating the Muslims to follow 12 infalliblepeople after Prophet Muhammad who is the last and final prophet of the children of Ibrahim.

Surah Al Ankabt:27 clearly states And we ordained amongst his progeny PROPHETHOOD ANDREVELATION.

So the leadership of Prophet Ibrahim means leadership in Prophethood; he is the leaders of thePROPHETS who came after him.

The verse doesnt say in any way shape or form that Allah would appoint 12 infallible people after theLast Prophet.

Therefore, appealing to those verses for the doctrine of Imamah is billions of miles away from beingtrue.

14 hours ago Like

Abu JaiyanaWhat is self-contradictory in his argument?

My opponent knows that the verse he showed was extremely vague as proof for their Imamah, so headmitted very sadly that a hadith is necessary for that verse to be understood clearly, and he went onquoting some hadiths from the Sunni sources which he himself criticized to be Umayyad fabrications.So he is using fabricated hadiths in order to clarify the verse which he knows to be an extremelyvague evidence for their Imamah doctrine.

Point #1Had the ayah he used to support their Imamah doctrine explicit, like the ayats for Salah,Zakah, Fasting, and Hajj, it would not need any hadith for further clarification.

That only simply means that my opponent is boldly, but shyly telling us that the ayah he put forwardas proof for their Imamah is vague.

Folks, ask yourselvesIs it logical that Allah intended to make one of the pillars of His religion unclearin His Quran? I dont think so!
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Point #2Fallacy of convenience, and cherrypicking fallacyusing other sources whenconvenient, pick what is convenient, but strongly reject the same when it is inconvenient.

Sunni hadiths are

Sunni - Shia Debate 2014 Abu Jaiyana Vs Ahmend Zulfiqar Ali January 1 – 4 2014 at Facebook.com

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