STATE LIBRARY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA

J. D. SOMERVILLE ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

OH 834/16

Full transcript of an interview with

TERRY LAWRENCE

05 July 2007

by Tony Rogers

for the

BUREAU OF METEOROLOGY ORAL HISTORY

PROJECT

Access for research: Unrestricted Right to photocopy: Copies may be made for research and study

Right to quote or publish: Publication only with written permission from the State Library

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OH 834/16 TERRY LAWRENCE

NOTES TO THE TRANSCRIPT

This transcript was donated to the State Library. It was not created by the J.D. Somerville Oral History Collection and does not necessarily conform to the Somerville Collection's policies for transcription. Readers of this oral history transcript should bear in mind that it is a record of the spoken word and reflects the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. The State Library is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the interview, nor for the views expressed therein. As with any historical source, these are for the reader to judge. This transcript had not been proofread prior to donation to the State Library and has not yet been proofread since. Researchers are cautioned not to accept the spelling of proper names and unusual words and can expect to find typographical errors as well.

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AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT

BUREAU OF METEOROLOGY

History Unit

Interview with

Terry Lawrence

Interviewer

Tony Rogers

5 July 2007 at Stirling SA

Interview number: 07044lawrence

The History Unit is a volunteer group of experienced researchers and writers assisting the Bureau of Meteorology

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Interview with Terry Lawrence on 5 July 2007

Interviewer: Tony Rogers

Interview number 07044lawrence

Tony Rogers This is Tony Rogers talking to Terry Lawrence in Stirling on the fifth

of July 2007 as part of the project to celebrate the centenary of the Bureau of

Meteorology in South Australia. Thanks for talking to us Terry. I’ll transcribe the

recording and let you have it in written form and also give you a CD of it so you

can check it for correctness. Now you’ve been with the Bureau for quite a long

time you’ve just been telling me. Tell me about when you started and why?

Terry Lawrence Why I started?

Tony Rogers Mmm.

Terry Lawrence I was a Clerk in the Department of Commerce. I went there to

Canberra in 1939. I left in early ’41 and went to the War. I came back and started

in Commerce in February ’46. I then - I was one of three fellows - after the war we

were all finding it very difficult to settle down. I’d been married in the interim and

housing was very scarce so I said I’ll . . . I saw an ad in the Commonwealth

Gazette for the Weather Officers and I said to this other fellow, Giddy Stevens,

“This looks like our type of job” so we went and saw our boss in the Commerce

Department and he said “Well, I’m so glad to get rid of you,” he said, “I’ll give

you a good recommendation.”

Tony Rogers Now you said you were married already - when did you get married?

Terry Lawrence 1946.

Tony Rogers Right after the War?

Terry Lawrence Yep. February - I was discharged - no, no I was discharged in

February ’46 and I got married in June ’46.

5

Tony Rogers Okay. So this was your old girlfriend from before the War was it or a

new girlfriend? [laughs]

Terry Lawrence It was an old girlfriend who I met in 1939 . . .

Tony Rogers Yes.

Terry Lawrence . . .and during the War I re-met her again in Sydney . . .

Tony Rogers Oh, okay.

Terry Lawrence . . . and it went on from there.

Tony Rogers Where was your home then before?

Terry Lawrence In Adelaide.

Tony Rogers You grew up in Adelaide, yes.

Terry Lawrence No, no, I didn’t grow up . . .

Tony Rogers Oh no, sorry.

Terry Lawrence I came to Australia in about 1927 . . .

Tony Rogers Yes.

Terry Lawrence . . .and my father was working on the Railways in Willochra, so we

went there. I went to school there, I went to school in Oodnadatta and Kingoonya

and then High School. I came down here then and went to High School.

Tony Rogers Oh, okay.

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Terry Lawrence From High School I joined the Adelaide Electricity Supply

Company and in the meantime, in conjunction with the Leaving, I’d sat for the

Commonwealth exam. They offered me a job in Canberra and away I went.

Tony Rogers Then you moved to the Bureau and you started with the Bureau in

1948.

Terry Lawrence Yep.

Tony Rogers And what happened then?

Terry Lawrence After the course was finished I was placed into Archerfield. I went

to Brisbane with my wife and we stayed in the Hotel Canberra, which I think was

a joke on with one of the fellows in the Bureau because it was a temperance hotel.

And I made the mistake of asking the girl on the desk where the bar was. Anyhow

I went and saw the people in the Bureau, the Brisbane Bureau and they said,

“Right, you start at Archerfield.” I said “Righto” and they said, “There’ll be

another Forecaster there so he’ll introduce you into it.” So I said “Righto.” So I

went to do the first shift and he was there. The next time I went, he was not and I

got thrown in the deep end and I think that happened to many people. And from

there, when at Archerfield there were light aircraft and Ansett ANA in those days

were flying from there. Then they all transferred to Eagle Farm and I went to

Eagle Farm and I stayed there until 1953. I applied to go to Port Moresby because

I knew that Cloncurry was coming up and after about five years you were likely to

get moved. I certainly didn’t want to go to Cloncurry and I thought Port Moresby

would be better because I’d been there during the War of course. So we all went to

Port Moresby and I stayed there until 1961, almost seven years.

Tony Rogers Oh, okay. How did you find Port Moresby?

Terry Lawrence Oh I loved it because it was the first time in my whole life that I’d

had a house to myself and my wife was working and we had a houseboy do the

work and I had a daughter and a son at that stage and they went to school there

and then my daughter was one of the first pupils in the new High School.

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Tony Rogers Oh, okay.

Terry Lawrence So then we came back to Adelaide in 1961.

Tony Rogers Yeah, before I get on to that, when you were in Port Moresby who else

was there? Was that when Joe Hobba was there?

Terry Lawrence No, no, he was not there. He’d gone by then.

Tony Rogers Oh, he’d gone by then. Who was there? Do you remember?

Terry Lawrence Oh god, no.

Tony Rogers It doesn’t matter.

Terry Lawrence No, there was a Keith Winters there who’s just died recently - I'm

trying to think who the OiC was. But anyhow I enjoyed it there because, as I say, I

had a house, even though there were five houses on six blocks and it was pretty

crowded. You were sort of in each other’s pockets and that caused a certain

amount of friction but a lovely view over the harbour and the DCA Club was just

down the road. We used to work from three till midday and midday till about six

and that was it for the Weather Officers. The Observers, you know, worked for the

24 hours and there were two Weather Officers and an OiC.

Tony Rogers So it was a good life?

Terry Lawrence It was a good life and I enjoyed it although, unfortunately my wife

became sick there. Anyhow then I came back to Adelaide in ’61 and - I’ll revert

back - when I was in Port Moresby they advertised for Weather Officers to go to

Butterworth and I applied but nothing happened. So I came back to Adelaide. I

think it was about February or thereabouts and in early November the Bureau rang

me up and said would I be prepared to go to Butterworth at short notice and I said,

“Yeah, I’ll go tomorrow.” Anyhow I spoke to my wife and she said yes, so I flew

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up to Port Moresby with Qantas first class, which was great. They came up by ship

later and I stayed there. My wife was unfortunately taken ill towards the end of my

tour so she came back earlier and I came back in ’61 to Adelaide. Then I got

promoted and went to Western Australia to the airport in Perth and that was in

early ’65. I lasted five months there because, in the meantime, while I was there I

got a letter from the JG GP saying that my wife was very ill. She had complete

renal failure and the only place that you could get dialysis and treatment was in

Adelaide. So I wrote to the Bureau and explained the circumstances and they said

“You can come back to Adelaide if you take a demotion” and I said “Okay.” So I

did that and came back to Adelaide and I was there for five years. Then in June

my first wife died and in November 1971 the Bureau rang me up and said “Would

you be prepared to go to Butterworth?” and I said, “Yes, I’ll go tomorrow if you

like”.

Tony Rogers And where is Butterworth?

Terry Lawrence This is Malaysia.

Tony Rogers Oh, okay yes.

Terry Lawrence In the Airforce. The first time I went there I had a medical exam

and went before a board and they said you know, etcetera, etcetera and the fellow

said “I notice that you’re a rating in the navy, why?” and I said “Oh I was

probably young and stupid.” Anyhow I went back to Butterworth then in ’61 and I

stayed there till ’71, I stayed there till February ’76. You can normally do two or

three years. I did three years and I knew that the whisper was that they were

having a bit of difficulty in getting someone in the Bureau so I wrote to them and

said I’d be happy to stay another year.

Tony Rogers Now were your kids with you?

Terry Lawrence Oh no. My younger daughter was going to boarding school down

here you see, but my two elder children were - they were out, they were gone. One

was in Western Australia and the other was here in Adelaide. So I got another

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year’s extension and then the Bureau wrote to me and said “Would you stay for

another three months” and I said “Yes, I will” and I was - there’s only two people,

John Roberts and myself that have ever done two terms at Butterworth and I came

back to Adelaide and I stayed there until I got promoted into a PTO. Do you know

what a PTO is?

Tony Rogers No.

Terry Lawrence Principal Tech Officer Forecasting. They’re the fellows that

supervise all the Aviation Forecasting in the region and I got promoted to that and

went to Darwin in the end of ’79 and I was there until ’78. I went there until I

applied to go to Brisbane as the position was vacant in Brisbane and I went to

Brisbane in early ’80 and I retired in November ’82.

Tony Rogers In Brisbane?

Terry Lawrence In Brisbane. My wife comes from Brisbane.

Tony Rogers Okay. When did you meet her?

Terry Lawrence I met her in Butterworth. She was a nurse in Butterworth . . .

Tony Rogers Oh, okay.

Terry Lawrence . . . and we got married in Butterworth. So I had a house then and

my daughter came over a couple of times.

Tony Rogers Okay. So your first wife died after getting ill when you were in Port

Moresby. Do you think this was connected with the lifestyle there or . . . ?

Terry Lawrence Yes.

Tony Rogers I mean Joe Hobba’s wife died when he . . .

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Terry Lawrence My wife’s illness goes back to her childhood.

Tony Rogers Oh, okay.

Terry Lawrence She had kidney trouble in those days.

Tony Rogers So we can’t blame the Bureau.

Terry Lawrence Well no, you can’t blame the Bureau but I felt that the Bureau

wasn’t that sympathetic when I wrote to them and said that she was ill and we had

to come back. But apart from that, the Bureau, as far as I was concerned, treated

me very well because I had two terms at Butterworth, which I enjoyed very much.

I enjoyed the lifestyle in the Bureau except when I came back. After Butterworth I

was down at Adelaide Airport for a while and then they transferred us all into the

Forecasting into the Bureau. When I was doing Aviation Forecasting and Public

Weather Forecasting and I didn’t like that very much.

Tony Rogers Why not?

Terry Lawrence Well, because you worked like a drover’s dog. You really worked

hard there. There were no computers or anything like that in my day and

everything had to be hand-written and you were writing lots and lots of forecasts

hand-written and it was hard work and you didn’t have the. . . In the Aviation

offices in the airport, you had time to relax and things like that and it was more

face-to-face, you spoke to the pilots and things like that. If I go back in the early

days of Forecasting in the Bureau, in Aviation Forecasting in ’48 onwards, we had

practically no aids at all and to be classed as a good Forecaster you had to have

excellent PR skills because they’d come in and say “Bloody terrible forecasting.”

If they liked you, you could get away with it but if they didn’t like you . . . But

then, you know, as this time in the Bureau there’s more and more aids and things

like that, but I left before the computers came in. Oh, they’d probably just started

then and that made a tremendous difference. But I did, I enjoyed my life there in

the Bureau very much I got on well with everybody . . .

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Tony Rogers What did you like particularly about it?

Terry Lawrence I liked the fact that I could travel, go around, and that it gave me

the opportunity to go to places that I would never normally go. And also I liked

the face to face interchange with the pilots and that that gave you an opportunity to

get - you know when I was in Moresby I got given the odd trip over to Ley or over

- I went over to Kokoda and the weather went crook and I had a weekend in

Kokoda and things like that. Also - you weren’t sort of tied down in any area and I

enjoyed it very much and the people with whom I worked with were pretty good,

most of the time. When I was in Archerfield I was thrown in the deep end but

fortunately the Observer I had with me had been in the Bureau for some time, a

war-time fellow and it made it much easier.

Tony Rogers What was the worst - what was the worst part about the Bureau for

you?

Terry Lawrence I beg your pardon?

Tony Rogers What was the worst part of the Bureau from your point of view?

Terry Lawrence Ah, well I’ll put it this way. I started off as a Weather Officer and I

got promoted three times and each promotion I had to win on an appeal and I think

I was the only person in the Bureau that ever did that. I had to hide the record and

when I was promoted to a PTO I won that on an appeal, when I was promoted to

Weather Office Grade 3 on appeal and Grade 2 on appeal. They gave us an

automatic promotion to Weather Officer 1 after we’d been there for a while.

Tony Rogers Why was that?

Terry Lawrence I didn’t like some of the hierarchy. [laughs]

Tony Rogers Okay. Any particular ones?

Terry Lawrence I didn’t like Mr. Bill Gibbs, very much.

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Tony Rogers Okay.

Terry Lawrence I felt that he gave . . . Although I enjoyed it, the Weather Officers -

he promised Weather Officers things that he couldn’t . . .

Tony Rogers Couldn’t deliver?

Terry Lawrence That he couldn’t do.

Tony Rogers Where was he based?

Terry Lawrence He was the Director . . .

Tony Rogers In Melbourne?

Terry Lawrence …in Melbourne, yeah.

Tony Rogers Okay.

Terry Lawrence And eventually as things progressed more and they got more and

more aids, they blurred the distinction between the Weather Officers or the

Aviation Forecasters and the Meteorologists.

Tony Rogers A number of people have talked about the promotion policy or the

weaknesses of it. It seems to have been that quite a number of people felt that it

wasn’t entirely fair, partly from the seniority point of view apparently, and others.

Terry Lawrence Well, the seniority bit worked in my favour.

Tony Rogers Okay.

Terry Lawrence Because, as I say, I joined the Commonwealth Public Service in

1942 and one of the basis of appeals was seniority and equal efficiency so that

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worked in my favour but I do feel that in many cases there was a - if the hierarchy

was biased towards some people and not the others. If they didn’t like you - but I

enjoyed it and I felt I was very lucky to be in it.

Tony Rogers Now when you were in Adelaide - that was when Alan Brunt was

Director?

Terry Lawrence Yes.

Tony Rogers What was he like as a Director?

Terry Lawrence I didn’t have much to do with him actually.

Tony Rogers Okay.

Terry Lawrence He wasn’t one of a - now how can I put it? When I joined the

Bureau most of the people with whom I worked were like - after work they’d go

and have a drink and relax and things like that you know. There weren’t any

teetotallers and it was a fun place in which to work but in the Bureau it wasn’t

that. There wasn’t the close camaraderie that you got between Observers and

Forecasters in the aerodromes and out in the outstations. Oh Alan Brunt was all

right but you know, as I say, I didn’t have much to do with him. I’ve had more to

do with him since I left.

Tony Rogers Did you know Doc Hogan at all?

Terry Lawrence I did. [laughs]

Tony Rogers Okay, what did you think of him?

Terry Lawrence As I say, I didn’t have much to do with him because - but I can

remember I had to go and front him because he said I’d insulted one of the Tech

Officers.

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Tony Rogers Oh, had you?

Terry Lawrence Yeah, I had. My wife was very ill. She had complete renal failure,

she was going down - in those days she was having dialysis three times a week

and I would take her down at about 6 or 7 o’clock at night, leave her there and I’d

pick her up at 6 o’clock in the morning, bring her home then she’d be okay that

day and she’d be no good the next day and I’d take her back again, see. And I was

looking after my two kids, my younger daughter and my son and life was pretty

hectic and I was working shift work and the fellows used to - were very good

rearranging shifts and things like that but I was under a . . .

Tony Rogers Stress.

Terry Lawrence Well, yeah, I’d say that. But anyhow this fellow did something and

I said “You’re a bloody idiot” or words to that effect and he complained to Doc

Hogan. And I had to go and see the Doc and he said, “Did you say that?” and I

said, “Yes, he is a bloody idiot!” And he said, “That’s not for you to judge,

etcetera, etcetera. But apart from that I got on pretty well with him. I didn’t have

much to do with him.

Tony Rogers Did he understand that you were under a lot of pressure at that time?

Terry Lawrence Oh, I think so, yeah but one of the good things, you know, the

people with whom I worked at that time they were very good.

Tony Rogers Yes.

Terry Lawrence And I must admit that when my wife died and I got letters from the

people in Head Office in Melbourne and then, of course because I was a widower

and my kids. I had only had the one child and the Bureau had difficulty in getting

a person to go to Butterworth, I was happy to go because I got on very well in the

RAAF.

15

Tony Rogers You probably needed a change of pace and a change of venue at that

stage.

Terry Lawrence Yeah well, of course. When my wife died in ’70, all of a sudden I

was going from flat out to practically nothing. So I took a fortnight off and went to

Sydney and came back. But of all the places that I’d worked in I thought that the

outstations were much better.

Tony Rogers You said you’d spent time in Darwin?

Terry Lawrence Yes I did.

Tony Rogers When were you there?

Terry Lawrence I was there in ’78 and ’79 and . . .

Tony Rogers Okay. How did you like it?

Terry Lawrence I liked it too and Val was working.

Tony Rogers Did she like it?

Terry Lawrence Yes, she said it was hot and humid, but she’s a Queenslander you

see and we had a nice house and good neighbours and I enjoyed working with the

people in Darwin.

Tony Rogers Some people seem to have really enjoyed Darwin and other people

seem to have hated it.

Terry Lawrence I think that one of the things is that after you’ve been there a while

- is that there’s no outstanding features, it’s flat. The weather, from November

onwards is hot and humid, but the winter is magnificent.

Tony Rogers Is it?

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Terry Lawrence Yeah, magnificent winter. Lovely climate, nice warm days and

coolish nights. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed all the places I went too. I enjoyed Port

Moresby and that’s hot and humid as well but, as I said, I had a house there and

freedom.

Tony Rogers So anybody - when you were in Darwin, is anybody who was in

Darwin then still around down here now?

Terry Lawrence No I don’t think so.

Tony Rogers What’s it like for the wives. You know when you're outside of a major

city, in a sense the wives are almost married to the Bureau as well, in some ways.

What’s it like for them?

Terry Lawrence Well, yeah, I think that’s very true that the wives associate with the

other wives in the Bureau, but, fortunately, my wife always worked. When we

went up to Port Moresby she worked there and so she had other people that we

met through her and we knew all the DCA people there as well and of course

when I was in Eagle Farm that was the same. There were the DCA people there

and of course all those fellows were practically all ex-RAAF and so they were all

ex-servicemen and you got on quite well with those people. I know some of the

wives didn’t like it, but I think it was just an individual thing. If some wives hated

moving, they didn’t like it much at all. My children, my two girls especially, if we

moved anywhere and we moved quite a bit, they made instant friends. My son was

a bit more reserved and he didn’t like it that much but he eventually got on. When

I first went to Butterworth, my elder daughter was going to High School so she did

it by correspondence. My first wife didn’t work up there. She wasn’t completely

deaf and she was an excellent lip-reader so they had a place up there that looked

after deaf children and she taught them sewing and things like that. So she had

something to occupy her with, whereas a lot of the others didn’t and some of them

found it boring and others played lots of sport and stuff like that.

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Tony Rogers One of the things you mentioned in passing was that when you were at

the airports there was a really good relationship between the Observers and the

Meteorologists and Forecasters, which was not as good in the sort of regular

Bureau?

Terry Lawrence No, because you didn’t see them a lot. I mean when you’re at the

airport you work side by side and you normally came to work, you started at the

same time, you left at the same time and you got to know them pretty well. And

after-hours when we knocked off we’d go and have a drink and things like that.

Much more camaraderie between the staff in the outstations than in the Bureau

because the Bureau - they had clerks and they had all kinds of people there and

there were many more people and so there was not the close-knit relationship

there.

Tony Rogers Because in the main office, the odd Observer seems to feel that the

Forecasters are a bit up themselves.

Terry Lawrence Oh, I feel that’s probably true in the Head Offices and places like

that - in the city offices, but I don’t so much in the outstations. Of course one of

the fellows that was up in Butterworth with me he’s in the Head Office, a fellow

called Ward Rooney. He’s a Senior Forecaster there and one of the other fellows

that I talked into going to Butterworth - Burden (?) is going to be the new

Regional Director in Western Australia.

Tony Rogers Oh, okay. Oh you talked him into . . .?

Terry Lawrence No, I talked him into going to Butterworth.

Tony Rogers Oh, okay. Yeah, because I saw that [unclear] now when did you retire?

Terry Lawrence I retired in ’82, November ’82. So I’ve been retired a long way.

Tony Rogers It is quite a long time isn’t it, I suppose. Heavens, when you think

about it. What do you miss about it? Anything now?

18

Terry Lawrence Oh no, I don’t think I miss anything. One of the fellows that I was

on the course with in ’48 lives in Adelaide and he and I see each other at

Frosterley meetings and things like that.

Tony Rogers Who’s that?

Terry Lawrence Nev Morris.

Tony Rogers Oh, Okay.

Terry Lawrence Nev and I used to room together.

Tony Rogers Oh, really? Where did you room together?

Terry Lawrence In a pub on the edge of Carlton.

Tony Rogers Oh, okay.

Terry Lawrence Oh yeah, we had some funny times together.

Tony Rogers This is in ’48?

Terry Lawrence This was in ’48 yes.

Tony Rogers Well he’s quite a lively guy, isn’t he?

Terry Lawrence Oh yes, a funny man.

Tony Rogers Why?

Terry Lawrence Why? If he hasn’t got anything to worry about, he worries why he

hasn’t got anything to worry about.

19

Tony Rogers Any stories about Nev?

Terry Lawrence Yeah, he spent a lot of his time in Townsville. I didn’t know him in

those days but I knew him when we came down here to the airport. Oh I got on

quite well with Neville. Well, fortunately, I got on well with most of them. The

odd one I didn’t get on too well with but . . .

Tony Rogers Do you know Morrie Moncrieff much?

Terry Lawrence Yeah, only when I went into the Bureau. He was the Senior Clerk

or something there, yeah.

Tony Rogers Because he must have started about the same time that you did – he’s a

bit younger I guess?

Terry Lawrence Oh, he’s much younger than me. I know he didn’t go to War, I’m

sure.

Tony Rogers No, no he started in ’48. I think he was about sixteen then.

Terry Lawrence Yeah, yeah. Oh ’48 I would have been twenty-seven.

Tony Rogers Oh, really?

Terry Lawrence Yeah, I was born in ’21.

Tony Rogers Oh okay, you’re older than you look. [laughs]

Terry Lawrence That’s because of the good life I’ve led. [laughs]

Tony Rogers Yeah of course, of course. Good life, pure life. [laughs]

Terry Lawrence Not a pure life, no, no.

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Tony Rogers Oh okay. [laughs]

Terry Lawrence I don’t think I was the greatest husband in the world in my youth

but no, I enjoyed it. I thought I was very fortunate that I joined the Bureau.

Tony Rogers Okay.

Terry Lawrence I mean, okay let’s put it this way, Aviation Forecasting in ’48, you

know, in the ‘50s and early ‘60s you had very little to rely on except your own

feelings and things like that you know, the gut feelings and as I said, you had to be

a good PR person and we were also fortunate that most of the fellows that flew in

commercial aviation in those days were all ex-RAAF or RAF people and they

were very forgiving.

Tony Rogers Did you feel that you had a real responsibility?

Terry Lawrence Oh yeah. Yeah, I can remember pacing up a down a few times.

Tony Rogers Yes. What, if the weather changed or if you felt your forecast wasn’t

right, or what?

Terry Lawrence Well, there was an aircraft flying from Sydney to Brisbane and in

Brisbane the weather was terrible so we had Charleville as an alternative. You see

if they couldn’t get in then they’d fly to Charleville. So everything’s going on very

smoothly. Then the people in Charleville – the weather was very bad there and

they wouldn’t be able to land there. They were circling around in Brisbane and

one of them was on their way to Charleville, so the DCA people got the

groundsman out at Dalby or someplace and said “What’s the weather like there?”

and he said “Oh, it’s not raining”. They said “Right” and then they said, “What’s

the visibility like?” and he said “It’s dark” and they said “Can you see lights?” and

he said “Yes I can see lights”. So they switched the lights on and eventually the

fellow landed there and the fellow came back so that was okay but you had some

tense times. And in Moresby - Moresby was prone to fog in the mornings and the

QANTAS flight from Australia used to come up there and you had the odd tense

21

time, but it normally cleared by 9 o’clock and they couldn’t fly to Ley because

Ley on most mornings was not good and the . . . It’s very difficult to forecast in

the tropics if you’ve never been in the tropics before. You go up there and you’ve

got limited resources and as I say . . .

Tony Rogers Did you feel well prepared by the Bureau from the courses or was it

experience that made you a good Forecaster?

Terry Lawrence Oh I think that - In 1948 aviation - commercial aviation - was

expanding fairly rapidly. They didn’t have any people to Forecast so you did an

Observers course and from then you went straight into the Forecasters course and

they – I don’t know, I feel that they would have passed anybody. And away you

went and you learnt on the job. I mean, some people had a feel for it and were

very good Forecasters, much better than some of the others and some of them

were terrible but as I say . . . It wouldn’t happen today of course.

Tony Rogers So you went to Darwin, Butterworth, Brisbane . . .?

Terry Lawrence I went to Brisbane, to Port Moresby, Adelaide, Butterworth, back

to Adelaide. Then I went over to – in ’65 I went over to Perth, came back and in

the middle of ’65 I had a couple of months in Alice Springs relieving up there and

while I was in Brisbane I went out to Charleville relieving out there so I’ve been

around a bit.

Tony Rogers Oh you have.

Terry Lawrence And as I say, I’ve enjoyed it all.

Tony Rogers What was Alice like?

Terry Lawrence Oh, pfwoar. I was there at – a lot of the Aborigines were there in

those days. Life was pretty rough. Of course they were allowed to drink and they

don’t seem to - I don’t think their metabolism is right for the amount of drink they

do. But I enjoyed it there yeah, because fortunately one of the fellows that lives in

22

the village he was up there flying DC3’s – as a navigator on DC3’s doing mapping

for the Department of Lands, aerial mapping, so I got to know those people and

we had great times together.

Tony Rogers Would you do the same again if you had your life over?

Terry Lawrence Oh yes. Probably the worst time of my life was just after the War

when I got married and no housing and living with people and things like that and

living in half-houses and all that sort of thing and that wasn’t the best. But from

then on from when I went to Moresby – even when I went to Brisbane housing

was very difficult. Fortunately while I was in the Hotel Canberra we answered an

ad in the paper and we were fortunate enough to impress the people and they were

going away for three months and so we rented their house for three months which

gave us a bit of a break. And then I knew some people from Adelaide and they

told me of people that had half a house that was for rent. So I went on from there

on to there, but it was very difficult and eventually I – do you know Brisbane at

all?

Tony Rogers Not very well, but I have been there several times.

Terry Lawrence Yeah well I had a house at a place in Turnbull and this was still

when I was at Archerfield and on a Sunday to get from Turnbull to Archerfield to

start work at 8 o’clock I used to catch a train at Turnbull at about half past four in

the morning and get to Brisbane, buy a newspaper, walk from Brisbane down to

Woolangabba, read the newspaper there and a fellow from DCA would pick me

up in his car.

Tony Rogers Hmm. A bit of a major, major journey.

Terry Lawrence Oh yeah - then. Of course, the Bureau would eventually provide

transport, but in the early days, no. And of course, if they transferred you from one

place to another, they weren’t particularly fussy about providing housing for you.

One of the Observers from Eagle Farm was transferred to Charleville and there

was no housing and he said “I’m not going” and they said “Okay” and so he

23

resigned. They were pretty tough in the old days. When I left in ’82 I was

supervising all the Aviation Forecasters and the Observers in the outstations and

there was a fellow and I said “Right, you’re being transferred to Charleville” and

he said “Oh I can’t go to Charleville.” I said why not and he said “My wife’s

working.” I said “We’re not employing your wife” and then the union man came

to see me. He wasn’t too pleased. He and I didn’t get on too well together. That

was one of the reasons I took early retirement. Because in my day things were - if

you went, you went. The fact that your wife was working and you’d lose money if

you went to Charleville – there was a house provided for him and things like that.

It was a different world so I got out.

Tony Rogers Oh yeah, I can understand that.

Terry Lawrence Although things like that were pretty tough, other than that it was a

good life. I enjoyed it.

Tony Rogers Now, we should probably bring it to an end in a moment, but before

we do that I just want to ask about various people that we’ve been talking to and

things that have happened. You’ve mentioned Alan Brunt and you’ve mentioned

Doc Hogan and you were in Brisbane when you resigned, of course, or retired. So

you wouldn’t have known some of the people in Adelaide at that time I guess - not

particularly.

Terry Lawrence I retired in – retired from Brisbane and the fellow who was the

Regional Director in those days – he’s since retired and then went on and had a

new career as a TV Weather Presenter.

Tony Rogers Oh okay.

Terry Lawrence He was a Cadet Meteorologist when I was out at Eagle Farm.

Tony Rogers Oh okay and who was that?

Terry Lawrence I’m just trying to think of his name – Ray Wilkie.

24

Tony Rogers Okay.

Terry Lawrence Ray Wilkie, yes. I got on very well with Ray Wilkie. He – of

course, in the early days when he was out at Eagle Farm he was more interested in

the band in which he played rather than going to work.

Tony Rogers Did you know Errol Mizon when he was working?

Terry Lawrence No.

Tony Rogers No. What about Ed Morris? No, Ed Wilson I mean.

Terry Lawrence Yes, Ed Wilson I knew. Ed Wilson was down at the airport when I

was there.

Tony Rogers Oh okay. How did you find him?

Terry Lawrence Oh quite a nice fellow. He was one of those fellows I beat on

appeal.

Tony Rogers Oh okay. Oh dear. Did that cause tension?

Terry Lawrence No, we’re still very good friends.

Tony Rogers He was up in Darwin as well wasn’t he?

Terry Lawrence Yeah, well I was not in Darwin when he was there.

Tony Rogers No. I gather his wife didn’t like it up there.

Terry Lawrence No. Coral is not the type that would mix well with the wives of

some of the fellows.

25

Tony Rogers Why not?

Terry Lawrence Well I think – how can I put it? A lot of the Observers and some of

the Forecasters were – they liked to drink and carry on and things like that and

were – some of them were pretty rough and Coral was more refined and she

wouldn’t go for that at all. But who else did I know?

Tony Rogers Neville likes a drink.

Terry Lawrence Oh yeah, Neville and I used to get on very well together. Most of

the people who I knew in Moresby liked to have the odd booze and of course

when I was in the Airforce, liquor was a big part of the social life in the Airforce. I

can remember in the last term I was there they sent out a directive that they were

concerned about the drinking in the Airforce. Oh it was a bit of a way of life there

for quite a while but I enjoyed it up there because Val was a nurse and we were

both there together and we had a great life. Very artificial, but we had a servant, a

cook and a fellow who did the gardening and you could say to the cook “Well I’m

having six people for dinner tonight or tomorrow night” and she’d say “Okay” and

fix it and no problems. So in that way it was very pleasant, but it was very

artificial.

Tony Rogers Did you use the Mess much?

Terry Lawrence Oh yeah, I used to go, but I was a member of the Plan Club and I

got to know a lot of people and Masonry is very – well in those days it was very

active in Malaysia . . .

Tony Rogers Oh okay. Why?

Terry Lawrence I think it was probably a bit of a status symbol.

Tony Rogers Oh okay.

26

Terry Lawrence I was a member of about three lodges and two in Kuala Lumpur

and I used to go down there about once a month and you meet people that you

wouldn’t normally meet. Of course we got to know a few of the plantation people

and they had a bit of a circuit. They were all either English, Dutch or ex-pats.

Tony Rogers Was this before Independence?

Terry Lawrence No, after Independence.

Tony Rogers Oh, after Independence. It was still a good life for the ex-pats was it?

Terry Lawrence Oh yeah, my word yes. When I first went there in’61,

Independence had sort of just – the ex-pats were - what shall I say? There was no

ill feeling towards the ex-pats in those days, but when I went back there the

second time it wasn’t as free and easy as it was. They also brought in this business

about the Ramaputras – the Malays. Every firm had to have a certain number of

Malays working for it and not as floor-sweepers but in the higher echelons as well

and that caused some resentment. But I felt I was very fortunate to go there twice.

Unfortunately the second time I went there the OIC was a fellow that had been

there before and he went to Perth and he died there.

Tony Rogers Now do you think – let me start again. You said when you started off

lots of people were ex-military, ex-RAAF. Do you think that affected the way the

Bureau operated or do you think it was just a thing that you found convenient?

Terry Lawrence No I think I just found it convenient. In the Department of Civil

Aviation I feel that they were practically all military and I think it did affect them,

but not the Bureau much.

Tony Rogers No? Because somebody has said that they thought it did. They said that

after the War the atmosphere in the Bureau was very militaristic, but on the other

hand the people that came – the people who were in the Bureau before the War

became part of the RAAF in the War because they were sort of sucked into it and

they were the same people when they came out.

27

Terry Lawrence They were in as civilians and . . . No I don’t think there was any

military–type discipline or anything like that. Actually I think it was pretty free

and easy. Not so much in the Bureau but in the outstations yeah, in the Airforce.

Very free and easy and the relationship between the Observers and the Forecasters

was good and also the relationship between - and the OiC was usually pretty good

as well.

Tony Rogers What about relationships with Melbourne? With Head Office?

Terry Lawrence [laughs] Not the best, not the best.

Tony Rogers Why not?

Terry Lawrence Well they did stupid things like – we used to get our fortnightly pay

in cheques and on at least two, probably more occasions, I can remember one

vividly, the cheques arrived and they were for four people in Townsville. So that

made it a bit difficult and they’d bring out edicts for the outstations that was

bloody ridiculous.

Tony Rogers Why? Because they didn’t understand it or . . .?

Terry Lawrence No, well they didn’t. I’m sure they didn’t understand the things that

– the way things happened in the outstations. We used to make our own rosters

and things like that and as long as the job was done and it was done reasonably

well, then most of the time the Bureau didn’t worry.

Tony Rogers Okay.

Terry Lawrence Also, while I was in Moresby I went to Manneson and did the

forecast for the Duke of Edinburgh.

Tony Rogers Oh okay.

28

Terry Lawrence That was quite an experience.

Tony Rogers Why?

Terry Lawrence Because I flew in a RAAF aircraft, a DC3 with all the people, not

the journo’s. The journo's came up in another one and we had an Observer there,

stationed there permanently in Manneson and we had a teleprinter service where

we’d get our forecasts and also all the weather data and the journo's were always

pestering you for . . . They didn’t realise that it was important for us to get weather

information and they wanted to send things and do this and do that. So relations

weren’t the best. Eventually they’d come over. When the Duke and his entourage

left the fellow came over and they said can we file our news and I was reading it

and they were saying “The Duke of Edinburgh and his entourage arrived in

Darwin in very fine conditions etcetera etcetera and were met by such and such”

and I said “That’s all bullshit” and they said “That’s true” and I said “Well what

happens if it’s raining” and they said “Well they’ll send us a signal and we’ll just

alter it”. So you can’t read everything in the newspapers.

Tony Rogers No I don’t think you can. Well shall we draw it to an end there, having

run the newspapers down?

Terry Lawrence And the Bureau.

Tony Rogers No we haven’t run the Bureau down. I think we’ve done well by the

Bureau. Anyway, I’m talking with Terry Lawrence in Stirling and we’ll close the

interview there.

End of Interview