SPI 245 How Sol Orwell Builds Successful …...This is Sol Orwell, founder of Examine.com, number of...

SPI 245

How Sol Orwell Builds Successful Businesses by Solving His Own Problems

December 21, 2016

Show NoteS: http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/session245

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Pat: ThisistheSmartPassiveIncomepodcastwithPatFlynn,session

number245.

(Singing)

Announcer: WelcometotheSmartPassiveIncomepodcast,whereit’sallabout

workinghardnow,soyoucansitbackandreapthebenefitslater.

Andnowyourhost,itwasMavisBeaconwhotaughthimhowto

type,PatFlynn.

Pat: Hey,what’supeverybody,PatFlynnhere,thankyousomuchfor

joiningmeinthesecondtolastepisodeoftheyear,andI’llhope

youstickwithmebecausenextweekwehaveaspecialepisode

wherewe’regoingtobecombiningsomeofmyfavoritemoments

fromSPIpodcastepisodesof2016,buttoday,I’mreallyexcited

becausewehaveaguestontheshowwhoI’verecentlybeen

introducedtobyanumberofdifferentpeople,anumberofmy

colleagueshavebeensaying,“Pat,yougottagetthisguyonthe

show,he’sawesome,he’sjustlikeyou,verytransparent,verymuch

justtellingitall,andverymuchapersonwhoreallycaresabouthis

audience.”AndsoI’mveryhappytowelcomeSolOrwell,hence

theBluesBrotherssongatthebeginning,butit’sspelledS-O-L,

notS-O-U-L,butanywayIthoughtthat’dbefun,andyouknowhow

cornyIgetsometimes.

Butanyway,SolOrwellisthefounderofExamine.com,healso

blogsatSJO.com,he’salsoagamerlikeIwas,andjustanall

aroundgreatguy,andjustinthistimethatI’vegottentospeak

withhimhereonthisepisode,I’vereallygottentotakealikingto

himandhiscontentonhiswebsite.Ithinkyou’regoingtobevery

pleasedbecausehe’sgotalotofgreatthingstoshare,he’sbuilt

massivebusinesses,buthasdoneitinaverytransparentway,and

whatalsoisreallycool,andthethingIloveabouthimisthatyou’ll

hearhimtellastoryaboutcookies,andIcandefinitelyrelateto

that,solookoutforthatattheend,orneartheendofthisepisode.

Anyway,there’sonemorethingI’mgoingtomentionbeforeweget

rightintotheepisode,andthisisanapology,andthatiswherewe

http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/

http://smartpassiveincome.com/session245


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actuallyhadsometroubleonSkype,inrecordingthisepisodeand

wehadtoswitchtoZoom,Zoom.us,butinswitchingtoZoom.usto

recordthisepisode,Iforgottochangemyinputfromthecomputer

hardwaremicrophonetomygoodmicrophone,theHeilthatIuse,

torecordthepodcast.Soyou’regoingtohearit,it’sgoingtosound

likeI’minaroom,andthere’salittlebitofecho,andthat’sbecause

it’susingmycomputer’smicrophonenotmygoodmicrophone,

buttheconversationwasjustsogreatandyoucanstillhearit,it

stillsoundsfine,butitjustdoesn’tsoundlikeitnormallydoes,and

that’sbecauseIjustmadethemistakeofnotswitchingover,so:big

lessontoallyoupodcastersoutthere,beforeyourecord,especially

ifyouswitchupplatformsmid-conversation,makesureyouusethe

rightmicrophoneandinputforyourcomputerandshow.Anyway,

thankssomuchguys,Iappreciateyoustilllisteningthrough,so

yeah,herewego.ThisisSolOrwell,founderofExamine.com,

numberofotherwebsitesaswell,andbloggeroveratSJO.com.

Herewego.

Pat: What’supguys,PatherewithSolOrwell,I’msohappytobetalking

withhimheretoday,he’sgotatonofinformationtoshare.Butbefore

wegettothat,Sol,welcometothepodcast,thanksforbeinghere.

Sol: Dude,thanksforhavingme.

Pat: So,I’msohappythatourgoodbuddy,Maneesh,whowasonthe

previousepisodeoftheSPIpodcastconnectedus,becauseI’m

justsothankfulforalotofwhatyou’vedone,andalotofwhat

you’reputtingoutthere,I’mactuallyveryinspiredbyitall.You’ve

createdExamine.com,youblogatSJO.com,andyouhavealotof

experienceandIwanttodigintoallofthat.Beforewegetintothat,

whydon’twejustkindofhaveyouintroduceyourselftoeverybody

andsharekindofhowyougottowhereyou’reattoday?

Sol: Forsure.So,IbasicallytelleverybodythatI’mlivingtheimmigrant

dream.ThequickversionofitisthatI’methnicallyKashmiri,which

iswhatPakistanandIndiakeepfightingover,it’swherecashmere

comesfrom,soIwasborninPakistan,attwo,wemovedtoSaudi

Arabia,spentafewyearsinJapan,backtoSaudiArabia,andthenI




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didmyEighthgradeinHouston,beforeweproperlyimmigratedto

Canada.PartofmyentireyouthwasalwaysbeenthatIincredibly

independent,forexampleIwasnotbornSolOrwell,Icompletely

changedmynamebecausetheideathatsomeoneelsenamedme,

evenifitwasmyparents,wasjustabsolutelyunacceptabletome.

MyentirethinghasalwaysbeenthatIbuildbusinessesaround

thingsI’minterestedin.YouandIbothknowthatthere’salotof

moneyonline,youdon’tneedtobethisgiantcompany,right?

Itdependsonwhatyourmotivationsare,minehavebeenmore

towardshowcanIhavefunwhilestillmakingmoneyatthesame

time?In‘99iswhenIgotseriousaboutit,Igotintovirtualcurrency,

ingameslikeEverquest,WorldofWarcraft,andthensincethenI’ve

hadsuccessinLocalSearch,Ihadafiveyearhiatus,Iwasinthe

StatesandArgentina.AndthenfiveandahalfyearsagoIstarted

Examine.com.

Soagain,it’salwaysbeenmoreformeaboutenjoyingmylife,more

thanjustlet’sgritandgrindandworkmorethan30hoursadayor

whatever,justsowecanmakeafewextradollarsorwhatnot.

Pat: Soreallyquick,thenamechangething,Ithinkpeoplearegoingto

beverycuriousaboutthat,becausethat’ssomethingwedon’thear

veryoften.WhatmadeyouchooseSolOrwell?

Sol: So,Orwellisprettyeasy,mybackgroundonmyfamily,hadabitof

apoliticalside,andOrwell’swritingsactuallyreallyopeneditup

forme.Ifwetakealittlecaveat,especiallywiththepoliticalseason

rightnow,1984wasmoreaboutgovernmentcontrol,andI’dargue

thatBraveNewWorldwasalittlebitmoreaccuratebecauseit

talkedaboutthatwewereoverwhelmedwithinformation,it’skind

ofhowweare.WhatOrwellreallyhitmewithwasAnimalFarm,I’m

notbigonquotesbuthisquotefromthatbookwas,“Allanimalsare

createdequally,exceptsomeanimalsarecreatedmoreequalthan

others.”Ithoughtthatwasaverypressingcommentaboutkindof

howthingsareandhoweveryonesometimesgiveslipserviceto

equalitybutsometimesyouneedtokindoffightforit.




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AndthenSol,honestlyenough,itwasjustsomethingthatwasshort

andeasytoremember,Ispentaboutayeargoingtopartiesor

events,pickinganewname,itwasalmostlikeanA/Btestofafirst

name,itwasfunny,inevitablypeoplewouldfindoutitwasn’tmy

realname,andthenacirclewouldformandpeoplewouldthrow

namesuggestionsatme,theworstoneIgotwasNigel.Tomeitjust

soundslikeanoldBritishdude,butattheendofthedaySolwon

out,andIkindofreallylikeitnow.

Pat: Verycool,Ithinkitmeans‘Sun’,also.

Sol: It’s‘Sun’inSpanish,it’saPeruviancurrency,it’sasalutationin

Scandinavia,ithas...EveninactuallyLatinAmerica,‘Sol’isshortfor

‘Soledad’,whichisafemale’sname.There’salwayssometimesabit

ofanoddlookwhenImeetsomepeoplefromLatinAmericawhere

theywereexpectingawoman,andinsteadtheygetme.

Pat: Verycool,thanksforsharingthat.Let’sgobackto...there’sso

manythingsIwanttogobackto,youmentionedWorldofWarcraft

andthatwassomethingIwashugeinto,I’mcurious,thatbeing

aroundthefirsttimeyoustarteddoingyourownbusinessstuff.

Whatwasyourbusinessrelatedtokindofvirtualcurrency,likewhat

wasthatlike?

Sol: Honestlyman,thosewerethegoodolddayswhenthingswerea

loteasier.Infact,itwaseasybeforeWorldofWarcraftcameout.So,

justtogiveasenseofscaleforpeoplewhodidn’tfollowMMO’s,

beforeWorldofWarcraftcameout,thelargestoneinNorthAmerica

wasEverquest,with450,000payingmembers,andthisislike15

to20dollarsamonth.WorldofWarcrafttookthat450,000and

theypeakedat14andahalfmillionpeople.Like,itwasalevelof

logarithmicscale,right,thatpeopleweren’tusedto.

Sobackinthosedaysoflike,Everquest,it’sprettysimple.You’re

abusyprofessional,you’vegot10hoursaweek,maybetoplay

online,youdon’thave50hourstogogettheSwordofDoom,so

peoplegotokidsthatareplayingfortoolong,andthey’vegot10of

theseSwordofDoomsandwerelike,“Hey,youknowwe’llpayyou




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fivebucksperSwordofDoom.”Intheirmind,they’relike,“That’s

awesome,I’mmakingsomemoneyandI’mplayingavideogame.”

Andthenprofessionalswouldcometousandthey’resaying,“Hey

IwanttobuythisSwordofDoom,”andwesay,“Sure,here’s500

bucks,it’sfor500bucks.”Thecost-benefitanalysisinyourheadis,

“ShouldIspend50hours,orshouldIjustspendthe500bucksand

getthedamnSwordofDoom,soIcanenjoytheendgamestuff?”

Themarketplacedictatedthatitwasneededandweweremore

thanhappytodoit.

Butwhatwedidwaswebasicallybuiltthelargestcontentwebsites

around.Weweregetting,Ithinkatitspeakwe’reataboutlike

300,000visitorsadayacrossourcontentsites,wehadthelargest

databases,wehadfansitesacrosstheentirespectrumofwhatever

thatlittlenicheofonlinegamingthatpeopleenjoyedsothatno

matterwheretheywent,theyknewthatiftheywantedtobuyvirtual

items,virtualcurrency,wewerethesourceforit.Itwaskindofan

originalplayoncontentmarketingwaybackthen.

Pat: Iactually,andIamnotafraidtoadmitthis,Ihavepurchasedstuffon

eBayrelatedtovirtualcurrency,virtualgoodsforWorldofWarcraft

backintheday,andImissthosedays.

Sol: It’sfunnythough,it’salsoevolvedwherethegamecompanies

finallywerelike,“Whyarewelettingtheseotherpeopleprofitfrom

it,”whenitliterallycoststhemonemillionthofacenttogenerate

anewSwordofDoomandsellitforhalftheprice.Themarket

kindofgotcrushedoutofit,butatitspeakwehadDiablo2.com,

wehadalltheacronyms,FFXIforFinalFantasyXI,MXOforMatrix

Online,DAOCforDarkAgesofCamelot,WildGold,EQPlatinum,

EverquestPlatinum,whatever.Itwasabitofawildwestbackthen,

anditwasalotoffuntobehonest.

Pat: Thenyou’recreatingcontentaroundit,that’sawesome.Where

doyouthinkgamingisgoingnowandaretherestillwaystotake

advantageofsortofwheregamingisgoing,Ithinkvirtualrealityis

goingtobereallyimportant.Idon’tknow,whatareyourthoughts

onthat?




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Sol: Honestly,it’skindofcrazy,Idon’tknowifyou’veexperienced

the3Dmoviesthatthey’redoingwhereyoucanswivel360

roundtoseewhat’sgoingaround?Ihavehonestly...No,Ithink

creation,kindofliketakingwhatMinecrafthasdonebutbringinga

professionalismtoitandbuildingyourownworld,Ithinkthereisa

potentialifyouhaveacommonizedengineandyou’rebuildingthat

kindofstuff.Buthonestlyman,it’s...I’msayingthiswithallrespect,

itkindofblowsmymindwherethingsaregoing,andthere’smoney

instrategyand...It’seventuallywemorphedalittlebitawayfrom

virtualcurrencyandmoretowardsguides,becausethat’salways

true,itdoesn’tmatterifthegamingcompaniescomeintoit,ifwe

hadgoodguides,peoplewouldbuyit.Honestly,I’mmorecurious

abouthowitgoes,Ihonestlyhavenoidea.

Pat: Metoo.HaveyouseenWestworldyet?

Sol: Oh!LoveWestworld,it’scrazy,eh?

Pat: It’salmostlikewow,thiscouldactuallyhappen,andIfeellikethings

aremovingtowardthatmodel.Anyway,we’regettingwayofftrack

here,butIwouldlovetocontinuetalkingaboutthisstuffwithyou.

IalsowanttodigintoExamine.combecausethat’sbecomean

incrediblesuccessforyou.WheredidtheideaforExamine.com

comefrom,andhowdidyouscaleandgrowit?

Sol: SooneofmyfavoritearticlesisfromJasonFriedwhocreated

37signals/Basecamp.Thearticleisabouthowluckisreallya

functionofobservation,andthemoreyoukeepyoureyesopenthe

moreluckieryouare,right?Thekindof...That’salwaysbeenmy

approachtobusinessis,“Whatissomethingfrustratingme?”

SoIusedtobealotheavier,I’velostabout60pounds,there’s

toomuchicecreaminArgentinaandtoomanycookiesandpizza

inNewYork.AsIlostweight,Irealizedman,thesesupplement

companiesarerippingusoff,right?They’remisinterpreting

research,they’resellinggarbage,forexample,they’llsayhow

glutamineincreasesmusclemassby300%,that’strue,ifyoucan

getintothemusclecells,right?Ifyou’redoingitinpetridishes.But




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ifyouactuallyingestglutamine,yoursmallintestinesequesteredit

allforthemselves,soitneveractuallygetstoyourmuscles.They’re

technicallynotlying,butit’snotactuallypracticallytrue.Irealized,

therewasnosourcethatanyonecouldturntoforinformation

onsupplements.YoucouldgotoWikipedia,butlet’sbehonest,

Wikipediaforallofitsbenefits,thisiswheresomeofthewarts

comeinright?Whereyouneedexpertsgoingthroughthisbitbybit,

slowlybutsurely.

Itwasjustfrustration,IwasinColumbia,actually,hangingoutwith

twoofmypost-docfriends,andIwascomplainingabouthow

they’remisreputingscience,andtheysaid,“Listen,you’redoing

nothingwithyourlife,youbum,dosomethingaboutit.”Ishookmy

fistatthem,butthatwasit,right?Icouldn’targuewiththem,and

that’swhenIemailedmyco-founderandIsaid,“Hey,there’san

opportunityhere,youknowI’vedonethisstuffbefore,youknowI

knowmy...Whydon’twegetthisputtogether?Youonlyhaveto

focusontheresearchandI’lltakecareofeverythingelse,beitweb

design,beitmarketing,website,hosting,development,whatever,

andwe’llstartfromthere.”Andthatwasit,Imeantheoriginalsite

didn’tevenhavealogo,itjustsaidExamine.comwithtextinthetop

leftcorner.Itwasjust,let’sputitout,let’sseehowpeoplereacttoit

andthenwe’llevolveovertimewithit.

Pat: Howwereyouabletogettherightinformationforit?ImeanIthink

alotofpeoplelikeyoubackthenhavepainsthatyouwanttosolve,

andIthinkthat’swheremostpeoplesawit,becausetheydon’tfeel

likethey’reeitherqualifiedtodothatorwouldn’tbeabletofigure

outhowtodothat.

Sol: Youknowwhat?Honestly,sobeforeIdidthat,I’dreadFerriss’s

bookonThe4-HourBody,andI’dwrittennotesonit,andIputit

online,andIusedtobeonReddit,I’vebeenonRedditnowfor

about10years,soIputitupintheRedditfitnesssectionandthere

wasahugelypositiveresponse.Ithinkifyou’rehonestaboutwhat

levelyouknowandyou’rehonestlysaying,“Heylisten,I’mnotan

expert,I’mgoingthroughthisprocess,I’mjusttellingyouwhatI

learned,whatI’mlearning,andIhavenoexternalagendatothat,”




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peoplewillrespondverypositivelytoit.Iunderstandthatfearthat

youknow,you’renottheexpert,butIalwaystellpeople,“You’re

notheretoimpressyourpeers,right?You’renotheretoimpress

otherpeople,you’reheretogetthemessageacrosstothelay

person,orthecommonperson.”Andforthem,allofthisstuffis

toooverwhelming,beitfitness,youknow...YouandI,wecantalk

aboutwebdevelopment,wetalkabouthostingandallofthatjazz,

andhowsimpleitseems,butIwastalkingtoatraineryesterday,

andtheideaofhavingawebsitealmostmadehimshake.Andthis

islikeaguywhopicksupmassiveamountsofweightasifit’sno

bigdeal.

Isaid,“Listen,allyouneedtodoisgetonWordpress.com,create

anaccount,andjuststartwriting.”Andhedidn’tbelievethatit

couldbethateasy.Ithinkhonestlymakingstuffaccessibleisthe

mostimportantthingyoucando,andifyougoreallydeepintoa

topicandmakeitsomethingthatsomeonecanreadandlearnfrom

that,eventhoughtheymaynotlearneverything,iftheycanlearn

somethingfromit,you’vekindofalreadystartedrightthere.

Pat: Awesome.AndyourworkonExamine.comactuallylandedyouon

theadvisoryboardforArnoldSchwartzenegger,whichisjustkindof

randombutprettycoolfact.

Sol: Yeahthat’soneofthethings.Itrytoreallymakemyguysfamous.

Ifyougoonmy“About”page,I’mtheseventhpersonlisted,allthe

emailscomefromotherpeopleontheteamthathavetodothe

research.MostpeoplehavenoideaIownit.Thatthewastheone

thingIkeptformyself.AtthesametimeI’monthisdigitaladvisory

board,soIhaveaccesstohisemaillist,andhiswebsite,stufflike

that.Myresearchguyswouldn’tbeableto...

Pat: That’ssocool.SoyoucreatedExamine.com,youhavethisidea,

you’rehelpingout...Howdoyouevengetthewordoutthere?Isit

Redditthathelpedyouinitially?

Sol: Yeah,soReddithelped,right?Inthecontextof,peoplewould

comeonRedditandthey’dsay,“Hey,iscreatinebadforyour




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kidneys?”Andthenpeoplewouldanswerthequestionandthen

oneweeklaterpeoplewouldcomeback,askthesamequestion

andobviouslynotsearchforit.PeopleaskmealotaboutReddit,

andpartofwhatmakesRedditspecialisyouhavetobepartof

thecommunity,andifyou’repartofthecommunity,peopleare

morethanhappytolinktoyoursite.Idon’tknowifyoureadhow

Sweethome/TheWirecutterwasboughtfor30millionbyNewYork

Times,buttheygetmassiveamountsoftrafficfromRedditbecause

peoplesay,“Heywhat’sthebestrouterIshouldbuy?”Or,“Whatare

thebestspeakers?”Andpeoplehappilylinktothissite.Somany

peopleseeRedditassomekindofmarketingopportunity,butreally

it’slike,ifthere’sSubredditsthathaveaproblem,andyoucanhelp

solvethatproblemforthem,they’llbemorethanhappytolinkto

you.

WhenIfirststarted,Redditfitnesshadmaybe5000people,now

ithasIthink,5.5millionpeople,sothatdefinitelyhelped.Butat

theotheraspectofwhatreallyhelpedwaswhenweputoutthe

wordorwhenwedidnetworking,wewereveryparticularthat,

“Listen,werenotdoinganycoachingandwe’renotdoingany

consulting.”Soeveryoneelse,beitpersonaltrainersorregistered

dietitians,theylovedusbecausetheyknewthatiftheylinkedto

us,iftheysenttheircustomersorclientsorpatientsourway,we

wouldn’tbetakingitfromthem.Wehadasymbioticrelationship

withthem.Theyknewiftheytoldoneoftheclients,“Hey,goto

Examine.comtoreadifcreatineworkswithwheyprotein,”they

knowwewouldn’tthenontop,say,“Hey,youshouldjoinus,

joinourconsultation.”Fromtheverystart,wemadethisvery

cleardistinctionsayingwe’reSwitzerland,we’renotgoingtodo

coaching,we’renotgoingtodoconsulting,we’regoingtosell

informationdowntheroad,butthat’sit,nothingmore,nothingless.

Thatbroughtusalotofrespectintheindustry.

Pat: Ireallylikethat.Sowhenyouwerereachingouttootherstoshare,

wereyoutellthemthatexactly?“Hey,we’renotcompetingwith

you,we’reactuallyheretohelpyouandmakeyourlifeeasier”?

Sol: Absolutely,youknowwhat,honestly,alotofpeopleaskmeabout




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networkingandallthiskindofstuff,andifwekindofsegueinto

thatforasplitsecond,toomanypeopletakenetworkingas,“What

canyoudoforme?”Or,“Whatistheproblemthatyou’regoingto

solveforme?”Whereastome,networkingisreallymoreabout

buildingrelationshipsandbuilding...AndbyrelationshipsImean

likepersonalrelationships,right?Buildingfriends.Ifyougoto

somebodyandyousay,“Heylistenman,I’vebeenreadingyour

stuffforawhile,Isawyou’veneverwrittenaboutcreatineoryou

wroteaboutcreatinerecently,ifyouwantwedonetheresearch

here,butyoudon’tneedtoworryaboutyourcustomersoranything

likethatbecausethat’snotwhatwedo,wedon’tdothecoaching

orconsultingwithclientsoranythinglikethat,”theyfeelmore

comfortablewithyou.Theyknowyou’rereadingtheirstuff,they

knowyou’realegitimatefan,orreader,orwhateveryouwanttocall

it,andtheyknowyou’renottryingtohijacktheirtrafficforyourown

purposes.Peoplearevery,very,veryresponsivetousfromthestart.

Fromthat,theamountoflinkswe’vegotisalmostmind-boggling.

We’retoptenorfiveforOfficialCreatineGarciniaCambogiafor

example,whichiswhatDr.Ozrecommends,ifyoulookthatupon

aGoogleWebmastertoolsandyouseetheimpressionsforour

tophundredkeywords,Ithinkthelowestoneisabout40,000

impressions,andthehighestoneisatlike900,000.Itkindof

workedoutwellforeveryoneinvolved.

Pat: Atwhatpointdidyouknowthiswasgoingtobeasuccess,after

youstartedit?

Sol: Ithinkwhenwehitaboutathousandvisitorsaday.Itoldmyco-

founder,Isaid,“Listen,wenowactuallyhaveresponsibility.”It’sa

soberingthoughtthatsometimespeopledon’tconsiderthis,where

youareimpacting-andI’msureyoucanappreciatethis-you’re

impactingathousandpeopleeverysingleday.Peoplearecoming

toyoursitetolearnfromyou,andwhatyousaymanypeoplewill

treatasgospel.Forbetterorforworse,howtheinternetworks,

peoplewillreaditandthey’relike,“Thissoundsright.”Sonow

we’reatabout2millionvisitorsamonthandit’sjustsomethingthat

it’salwaysinthebackofyourhead,that,“HeyIneedtomakesureI




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dothisright,becausethishasseriousimplicationsdowntheroad.”

Pat: Sohowhasthatmadeanimpactonhowyouapproachthecontent

thatyoucreate?

Sol: Man,honestly,we’vejustgottobecareful.Nothingweputoutis

half-assed,that’swhywehaveateam,that’swhywehaveabout

fivetotenpeoplethatcheckeverything,ourprimarysourceof

revenueissomethingcalled“Examine.comResearchDigest”which

actuallyturnstwoyearsoldtomorrow.Wehaveabout2500health

professionalsthattrustustoanalyzescientificstudiesforus.We

haveaboutateamof20,thatanalyzeseachstudyandmakes

infographicsoutofitorotherinformation,sowehavealotof

checksandbalancesthatwe’vebuiltininternally,tomakesurewe

doitright.

Soasanexampleofkindofwhatsetsusapart,andwhywe

canchargesomuchforourstuffisifwehavesomethingthat

haspossibleinteractionsinthebrain,wehavesomeonethat’s

aPharm.D,whichisadoctorinpharmacy,whospecializedin

psychiatricmedicine,whichmeansthatheisaspecialistindrug

interactionsinthebrain.Soanytimewehaveastudythat’sbased

onthat,wegotohimandthenheensuresthatwhateverwewrote

isaccurate.It’saseriousthing,butitalsoiswhatsetsusapart.It’s

muchharderforsomeonetojustcomeoutofthewoodworkand

say,“We’regoingtocompetewithExamine.com,”becausewe’ve

slowlybuiltupthatbrandandreputationthatwetakethingsvery

veryseriouslyandit’snotaonemanshow.

Pat: I’mlookingatyourstoreherebecauseI’msocurious,I’mnot

quitesureexactlywhatyou’resellingyet.Youguyshaveallthese

visitorsandstuff,Ithinkalotofpeople,evenpeoplewholistento

thisshow,theyhavealotofvisitors,they’renotmakinganymoney

yet,andI’mverycurioustoknowhow...Whatitisthatyouselland

whendidthatstart?

Sol: Right.Sowedidn’tsellanythingforthefirsttwo,twoandahalf

years.Iself-fundedit,obviouslyIhavealuxuryforthatbecauseI




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wantedtotakethetime,especiallyinsomethinglikesupplements

wehavetobeverycareful.Wesellthreethings.Firstly,wesell

guides.Soifyouwantyourmomto...Ifyourmomisworriedabout

anxiety,orshe’sworriedaboutherhealth,generalhealth,whatnot,

wesellguidesthatbasicallysay,“Listen,thisiswhattheresearch

saysonthesesupplements.”Shouldyoutakethisorshouldyou

nottakethis?Forexample,oneofourmostpopularonesissleep.

Andwesay,“Hey,lavenderisgreatforsleepquality,butifyou

wanttogotosleepyoushouldtakemelatonin,butyoushould

takemelatonin30minutesbeforeandyoushouldtakethismuch

dosage,notthatmuchdosage.”It’sveryspecificstep-by-step

instructionsonwhattotake,andwhatnottotake,andhowtotake

it,andwhentotakeit.

OurnextthingisourSupplementGoalsReference,whichiskindof

likethisgiant1200pagedocumentoftablesthatsays,“Allright,we

havealotofevidencethatshowsvitaminD,forexample,isgood

forbonehealth.Thesearethestudiesthatshowitandthisiskind

ofwhatwe’vebeenabletoanalyze.”

ButtherealbreadandbutterforusistheaforementionedResearch

Digest.Wehaveabout2500healthprofessionalsthatpaysus30

bucksamonthtolearnandstayuptodatefromus,astowhat

thelatestresearchissaying...Whatwe’vedoneiswehavea

massiveconsumersidetoit,butit’sthehealthprofessionalsthat

arereallyourbackbone,andthat’spartof...Again,thatsymbiotic

relationship,right?Theyknowtheycantrustus,andwearenot

goingaftertheconsumermarket.

Pat: Socool.CongratsonExamine.com,that’samazing.Youcanall

checkitout,I’mactuallygoingtobeexploringitbecauseI’minto

healthandfitnessrightnowtoo.Thatstartedasaresultofyour

experiencewithyourownweightloss,andwhatnot,sortoffulfilling

aneedthere,asolutionforoneofyourpains.What’sanotherpain

orproblemthatyouhadthatyouhadbuiltabusinessfor?

Sol: So,thepreviousoneforexample,theonethathaddonereallywell

wasLocalSearch,andhonestly,Ithinkthiswasin2003,before




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Yelp,orFoursquare,oranyoftheotheronesexisted,andmyex-

wifeandI,wemovedintoanewneighborhoodinTorontoandit

waslikethefirstcondointhatarea,andtherewasnowaytofind

outwhatotherbusinesseswereinthatspace.Soweactually...

ThisisbeforeiPhoneoranything,sowegotourdigitalcamera

out,wegotanotebookoutandweactuallywalkedaroundthe

neighborhoodandweindexed70differentbusinesses,69different

businesses,wetookphotos,wefiguredoutwhattheywere,andwe

justputthatinformationonline.Itwascalled...Theneighborhood

inTorontowascalledYorkville,andweweregettingIthink,maybe

threetofivehundredvisitorsaday,beforewefinallysaid,“There’s

anopportunityhere,let’sexpandtoToronto.”

Andsotome,wegobackandtoit,anditkindofgrewfromthere,

wecangetintotheprocessofhowallthatworkedout.I’vebeen

nowspeakingaboutentrepreneurshipforaboutayear,I’mgetting

intothepetspace,I’veboughtPet.orgalready,honestly,the

opportunityisvast,Ithinktheproblemistoomanypeoplegotoo

broadoffthebeginning,whereasifwegobacktoevenExamine.

com,originallywewereonlybodybuildingsupplements.Then

wegotintofitnesssupplements,thenwegotintogeneralhealth

supplements,thenwegotintonutrition.It’seasytoseefiveanda

halfyearslaterthat,“Oh,look,they’resobig,andthey’vegotthis

hugeteam,”ifyoustartatthatonelittleniche,andyoudominate

thatniche,thenasyouexpandit’skindoflikeano-brainer,right?

PeoplealreadytrustyouforX,sothey’regoingtorelevantY,

they’regoingtofollowyoustraighttoY,toZ,andtheneverything

elseyoukindofgofromthere.

Pat: Ithinkacounterargumenttothatiswell,“Whatifyougotoosmall?”

Istheresomesortofwaytoknowifyou’reattherightnichesize?

Orhowwouldyougoaboutunderstandingwhereyou’reatina

nicheorsub-nichebeforeit’stimetopullthetrigger?

Sol: Honestly,Iwouldn’tworrytoomuchaboutthat,right?Wereadall

thesecasestudiesofpeopleofpeoplewithathousandemails

andbeenabletogenerate$50,000orwhatnotfromit,right?So

Ithinkagain,whenyou’rekindoftryingtofigurehowitworks,




14

peopleoverthinkeverything,theyover-complicateeverything,so

ifyouwanttofocusonjustBichonpoodledogs,goforit,there’s

enoughpeopleoutthere,thatifyoucangetthemonboard,you

cansellthemnutritionbooks,youcansellthemtrainingbooks,you

candoconsultations,youcantalkaboutactualreal-lifetraining,as

youbecomebetterandbetteratit.There’ssomuchstuffoutthere

thatonceyouestablishabeachheadinonelittleniche,youmight

notmakealotofmoneyfromit,butthenyoucanexpand.It’sso

mucheasiertoexpandthanitistobelike,“Oh,shit,nowI’vegotto

contract,andallthisaudienceIhadbeforedon’treallycareabout

Bichonpoodles,”forexample,they’regoingtoleaveme.Ithink

peoplegettoooverwroughtaboutthinkingaboutthebigpicture

rightoffthebat,butsometimesit’sokaytojustdiveinandfigureout

whatfeelscomfortable,figureoutwhatkindofworksinthatspace

andthenworryabout,“HowdoIexpandoutofthisonelittlespot?”

Pat: Anotherthingtoworryaboutwhenyou’regettingintoabusinessis

howdoyouknowit’sgoingtobeonethatpeoplearegoingtopay

moneyforexchangeforsomething?Canyouactuallyturnitintoa

business,whendoesitswitchfromahobbyjustforfun,toyou’re

actuallymakingmoneyfromit?Howdoyouapproachthesortof

vettingprocessofabusinessthatyou’restarting,intermsofits

buyability,intermsofrevenue?

Sol: Inthatcase,ifyoujustlookatwhatotherpeoplearedoinginthe

space.SoifIenterthepetspacenext,right,mythoughtis,“Okay,

I’mnotjustgoingtojustenterthegenericpetspace,Iwanttoenter

onespecificarea.”AsIlookoverthepetspace,Iseepettreatsare

veryhuge.Italk...Youknowwhat,honestly,ifyoujustmessage

people,andinsteadofsayingsomethinglike,“Iwanttopickyour

brain,”ifyoushowthatyouknowwhatyou’retalkingabout,and

you’recuriousabouthowtheyoperatethings,peoplearereally

reallyfriendly,andthey’rehappytotalk.There’snotalotofpeople

whoareinthisentrepreneurshipworldthatthinkofitasazerosum

game.Myentireprocessisseeinghowareotherpeoplemaking

revenue,andisitsomethingrelevantIcando?

Ontopofthatthough,educationishuge.It’sverypopularthese




15

daystodocertificationsandallthatkindofstuff,butthere’sa

reasonforthat.Ifyoubecomeanexpertinyourtopic,peoplewill

payyoumoney,adecentamountofmoneytolearnfromyou,and

thatkindofgoesbacktothesub-nichething,ifyoudominatethe

Bichonpoodlespace,there’senoughBichonpoodleownersthat

willcometoyouandsay,“Okay,youknowwhat,I’vegotaBichon

poodle,Icouldgotothisguywho’sgotamassivedogsitebutI

couldgototheguywho’stheexpertatBichonpoodles.”

IthinktoquoteKyleNewport’sbook,whichisactuallySteve

Martin’squote,“Besogoodtheycan’tignoreyou.”Andyoucando

thateasilyandinasmallenoughnichethatyoucanstartgenerating

revenue...Everyonewantstomakeahundredthousandoramillion

dollars,butifyoucanstartgeneratingtenthousanddollars,youcan

thengofromthereandfigureout,“WhatdoIdonext?”Or“How

doIexpand?”Or“HowdoIbringinmorepeople,howtomakethis

moreprofessional,howdoIexpandit?”Again,Ithinkstartingsmall

isalwaystherightway,therightapproachtotake.

Pat: Iagree.Ialwayssayfocusongettingthatfirstcustomer.Ifyoucan

getone,thenyoucangetten.

Sol: Plus,youcanstarttalkingtothosecustomers,andyoucan...It’s

funny,there’sallthislipservicegiventhesedaysthatyouneed

totalktocustomers,youneedtotalktocustomers,butIwould

wagermaybe1or2%actuallytalktothemonthephone.It’snotthe

samethingviaemail,ifthere’salag,youcan’taskinstantaneous

questions,talktothemonthephone.Ifyoutalktothem,theywill

usetheexactlanguagethat’sfrustratingthem,andtellyouexactly

whatthey’rereallylookingfor,andyourconversationmaymeander,

butthat’ssomeofthebestresearchyoucandoforwhatever

industryyouareentering,istalkingtothesehumanbeings,andthey

willliterallytellyou,“Thisismyproblem,pleasesolveitforme.”

Pat: I’msohappyyou’resayingthis,thisissomethingIsayover

andoverandoveragain.Idon’tknowifyouknowthis,butI

actuallyreachouttotenpeopleonmyemaillist...Myemaillistis

approaching200,000atthispoint,butIreachouttotenpeople

amonth,andItrytogetthemonaSkypecallwithmeoraphone




16

call,todoexactlythat,tohavetheseconversations,andItellyou,

alotofthebestinformationthatI’veeverreceived,thatrelatesto

whatI’vedonewithmybusinessorwhatI’mdoingnext,comesand

stemsfromthoseone-to-oneinteractions.

Sol: Iloveit.Givemeanexampleofsomethingyou’velearnedinthe

pastmonthfromtheseconversations.

Pat: Thepastmonth,onewasrelatedtotheSmartPodcastPlayer,which

isasoftwarecompanyorproductthatIhave.Basicallysayingthat

itwasloadingtooslow,andtheywereveryveryadamantaboutthe

factthattheywouldprobablystopusingitifitcontinuedtoperform

likethat,whichledtofurtherconversationswithmyteamabout

performanceandoptimizationwhichledtosomechangesthatwere

madetomakeitfaster.Andnowpeoplewhowerecomplaining,are

saying,“Holycrapthisisevenbetterthanitwasbefore,whatdid

youdo?”AndIsaid,“Well,Ireachedouttosomebody,theytalked

abouthowthespeedwasslower,andweneverheardaboutthat

before,”andIthinkthisfirststep-

Sol: That’sawesome.

Pat: -Viaemailorsendittoasupportticket,orjustdealingwiththat

frustration,butwhengiventheopportunitytospeakup,theysaidit.

Sol: That’sawesome,Ilovethatexample.I’mgoingtousethatinthe

futureintalksforsure.

Pat: Speakingof,youdoalotofspeakingonentrepreneurshipright

now,whereareyougoingnext?

Sol: Foraboutthelastyear,Iusedto,inaway,andagainI’msureyou’ve

comeacrossthesepeoplewhodoaproductlaunchandtheymake

like$30,000offaproductandthey’relike,“I’manexpert,I’mgoing

toteachyounow,”wheretheygetlike500or1000visitorsaday

totheirwebsite,andthey’relike,“I’mgoingtoteachyouhowto

gettraffic,”andeventually,there’sahorrorstorybehindthis,but

eventually,there’sonlysomuchcomplainingyoucando,andIam

...Forpeoplewhodon’tknowme,Iamverymuchabout...stuff




17

likethecookielifeandthedesserts,andallthatthatyou’veseen.

Buteventuallyitbecame...Ihavedonethisnowfor17years.Imay

notbethegreatestoreventhetop100orwhatever,butIhave

somemodicumofexperiencethatIcanleverageandreachback

ontoandsay,“Thisiswhatworkedforme.”That’skindofwhat

broughtmeintothat,butagain,I’veneverlikedcoaching,I’venever

likedconsulting,soformeit’smorebeenanavenueofexpression.

IthinkI’vedonelike20,25talksthisyear,ordifferentevents,which

isveryintense,butpartofitisgettingtherepsin,makingsuremy

storycanbecommunicatedclearly,sowhenpeoplecometome

andtheask,whentheylistentome,they’llatleastwalkawayfrom

itthinking,“Icandothis,”or“Icanapproachthis,”or“Sol’slearned

thisovertheyears,Icanapplykindofthesamething.”

Even,forexample,asIalwaysharponpeople,don’tjusttalkto

yourcustomersviaemail,pickupthephoneorSkypewiththem

soyoucanactuallyseewhatitlookslike,whenthey’rehaving

aconversationwithyou.It’sbeenreallymorerewarding,than

anythingelse,butatthesametime,Ispeakininterestingplaces

forme,IusuallygolikeaweekearlyorIstayaweekextrasoit’sa

bitof...Itrytotravelabout100daysayear,soit’sacombinationof

vacationplusmakingactualimpactintheworld.Assmallasitmay

be,anactualone.

Pat: Ilovethat,Isawonyour“About”pagethattravelisreallyimportant

toyou,andyou’redoingthatnow,whichisawesome,andhelping

byprovidingvaluetoothersalongtheway,whichisgreat.Onething

IsawonyourblogthatIreallylikedwasthisseriesthatyou’redoing

calledtheAuditseries,Ithinkitwascalled?Andcanyouexplain

whatthatisandalsomaybesharesomeactualstuffbeforewe

finishuptoday,myaudience,theylovestuffthattheyjust...Once

theyfinishlisteningtheycanjustdo.Soifyouhaveafewofthose

nuggetstooffer,inrelationtotheauditthingthatyou’redoing.

Sol: TheAuditseriesisbasically,wehaveallthesetouchpointswithour

customersthatwemaynotrealizearetouchpoints,andreallyit’san

opportunityforustostepbackandsay,“Whatarethebestpractices

weshouldbegoingthrough?”Oneofthenicethingsabouthaving




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theselargesitesthathavealotoftrafficiswecandoalotof

intensivetestingreallyquickly.Wegetaboutfivetosevenhundred

emailsaday,wecaniterateonceaweekandhavealargeenough

samplethatweknow,“Heyisthisworkingoristhisnotworking?”

SotheAuditseriesisthesecustomertouchpointssuchasthe

thankyoupage.Orthe...Orsomethinglikethewelcomeemail,

whichpeopledon’tgivealotofconsiderationto,butthey’revery

impactfulbecauseifwethinkaboutyourownexperiencewith

anothercompany,thewelcomeemailorthethankyoupageare

someofthemostimportantones.Somyfavoriteone,andoneof

thefirstonesIwroteaboutwasthethankyoupage,whereit’slike

ifsomeonehasoptedin,andthey’vegivenyoutheiremail,they’re

incrediblyinterested.Butwhat’sfunnyisalmosteveryoneI’vecome

across,they’vegottheworstthankyoupages.Iteithergoestothe

default...oritjustsays,“Thankyou,checkyouremail,”andI’m

like,“Whereistheconversation?”Whereareyoucontinuingina

waytosellmewhoyouareorwhyIshouldbuyintoyourbrand,or

whatyoudo.

Someofourrecommendationsincludethankthem,remindthem

whytheyareatthethankyoupage,haveanopportunitytoconnect

withyouinadifferentplace,beitTwitterorbeitFacebook,and

thengivethemanotherCTA.Somethingassimpleasthat,will

makeanactual,actualimpactonyourbusiness.AndtheCTAcould

besomethingassimpleasinyourwelcomeemail,you’vegotthe

welcomeemailwhereyousay,“Wehavepeoplepickfromthe

threekindoftypestheyare,”andjustsegmentthemrightthere.

Segmentationissopowerful,andthatthankyoupageistheperfect

placetosegmentthem.Orofferthemasale,likewemakeabout

fivetotenthousanddollarsamonthonExamine.comjustfromour

thankyoupage,justoffering,“Hey,thankyouforsigningup,thisis

oursupplementgoalsreference,youcanbuyitnow,”andboom,

peoplebuyitenmasse.

Ifthere’sonethingpeopleshouldreally,reallyreconsiderhow

they’redoing,istheirthankyoupage,andtheirwelcomeemail,

whichisanextensionofthethankyoupage.Again,thankthem

forsigningup,tellthem...Settheexpectationsofwhatthey’re




19

goingtoreceive,givethemawayofcommunicatingwithyou,

again,peoplewanttofeellikethey’reconnectedwithyou,that’sall

peoplereallywantinthisworld,especiallywithsocialmediaand

allthatjazz,we’resodisconnectedrightnow.Andthenofferthem

asecondaryCTA,havethemdosomething,youdon’thavetosell

themsomething,buthavetheminteractwithyourbrandsothatthe

buy-inismore,sothatthetrusttheybuildwithyouisalotmore.

Definitely,definitelypeopleblowitontheirthankyoupageand

theirwelcomeemail.

Pat: Loveitman,thankyouforthat...Thankyousomuchforthat.Where

canpeoplefindoutmorefromyou?Whatwebsitesdoyouwantto

shoutout?

Sol: PrettymuchyoucanfindmeonSJO.com,that’skindofwhereItalk

aboutentrepreneurshipandkindofthemindsetthatIapproach,

andfromthereyoucanfindmeoneitherFacebookorTwitter,

IspendaninordinateamountoftimeonFacebookmostly,the

Cookielife,wherebasicallythisyearalone,IthinkI’vehad70

peoplesendmecookiesfromaroundtheworld,that’stheirwayof

showingappreciationforwhateveritisthatImuseoutthere.Just

sayhi,Itendtobeveryfriendly,Itrynottobite,don’tfeelshyabout

sayinghello.

Pat: Awesome,Ilovewhatyou’redoing,initiallywhenyousaidSJOI

hadconfuseditforSOJ,whichisaWorldofWarcraftreference,

StaffofJordan,that’showI’llneverforgetyourwebsitenow,SJO.

com.Sorryit’salittlegeekyreferencethere.Andthecookiething,I

lovethat,Isawsomepicturesofthatearlieronyourwebsite,Ithink

that’sgreat,that’samazing.Iusehandwrittenthankyounotesfor

thesamereason,justtovalidatethefactthatI’mactuallymaking

adifference,andyou’regettingcookiestoo,andIthinkthat’s

awesome.I’mgoingtosendyousomecookiesoneofthesedays,

andIlookforwardtothenexttimewegettochat.

Sol: It’sanabsolutepleasurebeingon,thanksforhavingme.

Pat: Thanksman,appreciateyou.




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AllrightI’mbackwiththegoodmicrophone,thankyouguys

forlisteningallthewaythrough,Iappreciateyousomuch,and

I’msuperthankfulforSolcomingontheshow,andintroducing

himselftoyoubecauseIthinkhe’ssomebodythatIthinkyoucould

definitelylearnalotfrom.AgainheblogsoveratSJO.com,youcan

checkoutExamine.comandseejustwhatthathasgrownto.It’s

becomesuchanamazingresource,I’vestartedtouseitmyselfto

lookupsomeinformationrelatedtothingsthatIuse,intermsof

supplementsandwhatnot,it’sbeenreallyreallyinformative,and

it’sjustsocoolthathe’sbeenabletocreatethesethingsbased

offofstuffthathefoundthatheneededtofigureoutonhisown,it

verymuchremindsmeofNathanBarryandhisConvertKit,which

wasverymuchbuiltbecausetherewerenogoodemailmarketing

toolsouttherethatwassuitinghisneedssoheendedupbuildingit

himself,andnowweallknowhowsuccessfulthathasbecome.

Thankssomuch,Iappreciateyou,andagain,lookoutfornext

week’sepisodewherewe’regoingtoberecappingsomeofmy

favoritemomentsfromtheSmartPassiveIncomepodcastin2016.

Canyouguesswhichonestheyare?Letmeknowwhatyouthink,

andletmeknowwhatyouthinkofthisepisodeandSol,overat

SmartPassiveIncome.com/session245.Thankssomuch,appreciate

you,I’llseeyouinthenextone.Bye.

Announcer: ThanksforlisteningtotheSmartPassiveIncomepodcastatwww.

SmartPassiveIncome.com.




21

ReSouRceS: Examine.com

SJO.com

Reddit

The4-HourBody




http://examine.

https://finconexpo.com

http://sjo.com

http://reddit.com

http://fourhourbody.com/


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