Rohr, Mark | Investigation testimony
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Transcript of Rohr, Mark | Investigation testimony
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Transcript of the Testimony of Mark Rohr
Date: November 5, 2013Volume: I
Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
Printed On: November 13, 2013
Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078
Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]
Internet:
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Mark Rohr In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
417-358-4078Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.
Page 1
IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION
SWORN STATEMENT OF
MARK ROHR
Taken on Tuesday, November 5, 2013, from 1:52 p.m. to 3:10
p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626
S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of
Missouri, before
SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,
a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and
for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.
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APPEARANCES
MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE
Loraine & Associates, LLC
4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300
Osage Beach, MO 65065
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S T I P U L A T I O N
IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn
Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by
SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and
afterwards reduced into typewriting.
It is further stipulated that the signature of the
witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of
said witness shall be of the same force and effect as
though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.
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Mark Rohr In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
417-358-4078Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.
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I N D E X
Page/Line
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4
E X H I B I T S
Exhibit #A. . . . . . . . 5-9
Advice of Rights
Exhibit #12 . . . . . . . 7-10
Memo
Note: Exhibits in separate binder
(sic) - typed as spoken
(ph.) - phonetic
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Mark Rohr In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 MARK ROHR
2 Having been first duly sworn and examined,
3 testified as follows:
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:
5 Q. Sir, for the record we briefly talked outside
6 earlier and I introduced myself and you
7 introduced yourself and we talked a little
8 bit about what we're doing here. I'm going
9 to give you what is Exhibit #A, it's called
10 an Advice of Rights. Basically it's part of
11 the Garrity investigation and it reads as
12 follows: "Advice of Rights. I wish to
13 advise you that you are being questioned as
14 part of an official investigation by the City
15 of Joplin. You will be asked questions
16 related and specifically directed to the
17 performance of your official duties of
18 fitness for office. You are entitled to all
19 the rights and privileges guaranteed by the
20 laws of the Constitution of the State and the
21 Constitution of the United States, including
22 the right not to be compelled to incriminate
23 yourself. I further wish to advise you that
24 if you refuse to testify or to answer
25 questions relating to the performance of your
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Mark Rohr In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 official duties, you will be subject to 2 departmental charges, which could result in
3 your dismissal from your official duties. If
4 you do answer, these questions may be used
5 against you in relation to subsequent
6 departmental charges, but not in any
7 subsequent criminal proceedings. I have read
8 and fully understand the Advice of Rights as
9 it appears above. This information has also
10 been read to me prior to answering any
11 questions." Did you understand what I just 12 said?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you understand vaguely what the Garrity
15 matters are about?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You are City Manager?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you have any legal training?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Having said that, sir, I would like you to
22 print your name and then sign it, date it,
23 and we can proceed.
24 A. (Witness complies)
25 Q. Print it and sign it.
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1 A. (Witness complies)
2 Q. All right. Sir, have you complied with my
3 request?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Prior to coming in here today,
6 sir, you handed me a one page document. Is
7 that true?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I'm going to have that marked as Exhibit
10 Number #12. Is this the document that you
11 handed me?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. All right. Sir, would you explain what this
14 particular document is?
15 A. It's a copy of a memo or email that I got
16 from the Building Maintenance Supervisor, and
17 I had asked him who had the keys that could
18 access my office and that he would be the one
19 that would be in a centralized position to be
20 able to know who all had keys, and he
21 provided that list to me and I thought it
22 might be helpful to you. And that's in
23 reference to the post-it note, the
24 disappearing post-it note situation.
25 Q. Yes, so just to recant a little bit or just
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1 to further explain that, we have eight people
2 that have been listed on here as people that
3 could have access to your desk?
4 A. He mentions I think narratively three others
5 down below the list.
6 Q. Hertzberg, Schaller, and Tim Nyander. Now
7 these are people that generally I see
8 maintenance, custodian, custodian, custodian.
9 What is an IS?
10 A. Information Systems. I.T.
11 Q. Oh, the same thing would be true with Morris
12 and Kent?
13 A. Yeah, both of those guys are I.T. or IS?
14 Q. Building Knox Box?
15 A. That's the Fire Department access in case
16 there's a fire. There's kind of a master
17 box.
18 Q. But that would be not be to your office?
19 A. I believe what he's trying to say there is
20 that there will be a copy of that in that
21 Knox box.
22 Q. That's kind of disconcerting.
23 A. Yeah, there's more people on that list than I
24 thought. There was a mystery and there didn't
25 appear to be anyone force their way into the
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1 office so that leads me to believe that
2 someone used the key.
3 Q. David Hertzberg, who is he?
4 A. He was the Public Works Director. He was
5 demoted recently, I should say reassigned, he
6 was reassigned to another position and he's
7 working on CBG related activities for the
8 City in response to the tornado.
9 Q. What is CBG?
10 A. CBG, Community Development Block Grand.
11 Q. Is he an employee of yours?
12 A. Yes, he's still employed.
13 Q. What about Jack Schaller?
14 A. He resigned recently. He is no longer
15 employed.
16 Q. Who is he?
17 A. He was the Assistant Public Works Director.
18 Q. Under Hertzberg?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And who is Tim Nyander?
21 A. He was a parallel position or comparable
22 position with Jack underneath David. He
23 retired from the City I think last November
24 and works someplace in northern Arkansas now.
25 Q. Underneath David Hertzberg?
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1 A. Hertzberg.
2 Q. This list of people would be germane inasmuch
3 as you have a claim that somebody took a
4 certain note off of your desk. Was it off
5 your desk or in a secure location?
6 A. I believe it was on the credenza behind my
7 desk. I have a window behind my desk and
8 there's a table there that has my computer,
9 has some books on one side, then it has some
10 post-it notes and business cards on a stack,
11 but it's located right behind my desk so not
12 necessarily on my desk but right behind it.
13 Q. Sir, I'm going to hand you what's been marked
14 Exhibit #1, today's date, and see if you can
15 identify what that is? It's a copy
16 obviously.
17 A. It looks like a note. It could have been the
18 post-it note.
19 Q. We're making reference when you say the
20 post-it note, this information on Exhibit #12
21 here is people that you think had possible
22 access to your what I would call private or
23 secure area, and would this be a copy of the
24 note that --
25 A. All I know.
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1 Q. Let me finish my question.
2 A. Sure.
3 Q. Would this be a copy of the note that has
4 allegedly disappeared from your office?
5 A. Could very well be. And what I mean by that
6 is I've not seen the note. Mr. Scearce made
7 a reference to a note at a press conference
8 that he held.
9 Q. You have not seen this note before?
10 A. No, that's not what I'm saying. I don't know
11 if this is the note that he was referring to
12 in the press conference. I'm assuming since
13 it's in the context that you're asking me
14 that it is, but I don't know that for sure.
15 The fact that he mentioned it, there was a
16 phone number, her phone number on it.
17 Q. Who is her?
18 A. Carol Stark is the Editor of the paper.
19 Q. Is this in your handwriting?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Everything on here is in your handwriting?
22 A. It appears so, yes.
23 Q. So I understand what you're saying. You
24 don't know if this is the note, but this
25 looks like your handwriting and it looks like
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1 a note that contains all the necessary
2 ingredients. Would you agree with that?
3 A. Yes, I'm assuming this is the note he's
4 referring to. This is in my handwriting,
5 this looks like the post-it note that I had
6 on my credenza behind my desk. I don't know
7 if this is the note he was referring to in
8 the press conference.
9 Q. Okay. Let me share this with you. I have
10 been given this copy subject to my 11 questioning and investigations from your City
12 Attorney. This is a copy of the note that he
13 had so I assume - I don't know if that's the
14 same. I haven't talked with Mr. Scearce or
15 Mr. Woolston or any of those people yet, but
16 this is what I have been provided so I'm
17 assuming since it's in your handwriting that
18 this is a note that came from you. Is that a
19 safe assumption?
20 A. I think that I wrote this and this was on my
21 desk or my credenza at some point. How the
22 City Attorney got it I don't know.
23 Q. Let me say this. This is what I've been
24 provided. And I'm going to ask you to
25 translate this for me. I mean I think I can
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1 read it. I obviously see the name Stark, but
2 I want to go on the first line and we can do
3 this simply, I guess. I'm going to mark
4 numbers on each line. Sir, I see at least
5 what I have number is 8 lines. Would you
6 look at that and have I marked 8 lines and
7 does it make sense? Can you go line by line
8 and tell me what it says?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What does line 1 say?
11 A. "Address was".
12 Q. What does line 2 say?
13 A. "Carol Stark extremely" or I guess
14 "extremely" could be considered line 3. It's
15 kind of straddling them.
16 Q. "Address was", what does that have reference
17 to?
18 A. I'm not sure. I don't recall specifically
19 what it was referencing. Carol Stark is the
20 Publisher of the paper.
21 Q. Has she talked with you specifically any
22 time?
23 A. Yes, she asked me questions.
24 Q. About this?
25 A. With respect to Mr. Scearce and Mr. Scearce
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1 asking for a meeting in my office in March
2 with the City Attorney and the Police Chief.
3 I think she and I talked on more than one
4 occasion.
5 Q. Her name is referenced on line 2?
6 A. Carol Stark, yes.
7 Q. And that's in your handwriting. Line 3 looks
8 like that word that you said is "extremely"?
9 A. "Extremely".
10 Q. Line 4, what does that say?
11 A. "8/12/13".
12 Q. And what is that in reference to?
13 A. It's a date, I'm assuming.
14 Q. What does that say back there?
15 A. "Helpful".
16 Q. Is that all it says? Line 5, what does that
17 say?
18 A. "Contributing to a continual criminal
19 enterprise".
20 Q. What is that in reference to?
21 A. I believe in the past, I don't know if that
22 came up during a conversation with her, but
23 that would have been the alleged charge that
24 would have been attributed to Mr. Scearce's
25 behavior.
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1 Q. And the charge would be this matter involving
2 Lovett bookmaking, I guess?
3 A. Yeah, I'm not sure if - there's two guys that
4 were involved in that that were charged whose
5 names were in the paper. Lyle and Lovett.
6 I'm not sure which one was the one that
7 rented space from Mr. Scearce. It may have
8 been Lovett, it may have been Lyle. I can't
9 remember specifically.
10 Q. The next line, number 6, what's that word?
11 A. "Lovett".
12 Q. And what's the last combination of words on
13 that line?
14 A. "Criminal enterprise".
15 Q. Line 7, what does that say?
16 A. "FBI request issues".
17 Q. What does line 8 say?
18 A. "Surrounding".
19 Q. Do you know what "surrounding" means?
20 A. I mean I think it's part of this observation,
21 but it may have been part of the conversation
22 that I had with her.
23 Q. So this might be some kind of notes that you
24 took with the conversation with Carol?
25 A. Yeah.
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1 Q. And that would be Stark?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I am particularly interested in the
4 "contributing to criminal activity". I mean
5 I think you would probably be interested in
6 that yourself. That's an interesting phrase.
7 A. Yes, it is. What I understand it's a legal
8 charge. I'm not expert.
9 Q. Do you know of the existence of an FBI
10 report? Have you seen it?
11 A. I've never seen it, no, sir.
12 Q. Does Carol Stark know of the existence of an
13 FBI report?
14 A. She knows of the existence. I don't know if
15 she's seen it. They made a public records
16 request. That was the gist of the
17 conversation was that they had a request in
18 for well over a year now for that file and
19 she was doing an article on Mr. Scearce and
20 this conversation surrounded that article and
21 the meeting that he held in my office in
22 March.
23 Q. And that meeting in March, there's a date on
24 here of 8/12/13. What's significant about
25 that?
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1 A. I would imagine that's probably on or about
2 the time that we had the phone conversation.
3 Q. With whom?
4 A. Carol.
5 Q. Carol and you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the meeting in March, was that March
8 before this audit?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What was significant about that meeting?
11 A. Mr. Scearce had called for that meeting with
12 the Police Chief and he asked for it through
13 the City Attorney so the four of us were
14 present in my office.
15 Q. So the Police Chief, yourself, the City
16 Attorney, and Mr. Scearce?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What was the nature of the meeting? Why did
19 Scearce want that meeting?
20 A. He was upset that the Police Chief had told
21 me about circumstances surrounding him based
22 on the FBI investigation.
23 Q. So what had the Police Chief told you?
24 A. He told me some of the issues surrounding Mr.
25 Scearce's involvement with that.
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1 Q. What were those issues?
2 A. I don't know that I can say that. I was told
3 that I can't.
4 Q. By whom?
5 A. The Police Chief.
6 Q. Well, I'm doing an official Garrity
7 investigation. Now would be a good time for
8 you to tell me what he said because I'll have
9 him here soon.
10 A. Am I allowed to say that if that runs afoul
11 of restrictions in the law? I've never seen
12 the file. All I know is that he was
13 apprising me --
14 Q. Let me explain something to you. What we're
15 doing I'm not doing a criminal investigation.
16 I'm doing a civil investigation of what the
17 City knows. The only way I can find out what
18 the City knows is talk to the City employees.
19 A. Sure.
20 Q. Then the City knows what the City employees
21 know. And one of the things that I want to
22 know about is what the Chief told you and
23 therefore you have a choice of not telling me
24 or choosing to tell me, you have the choice
25 of telling me or you can stay mute.
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1 A. I'm not being contentious.
2 Q. No, I know that. I'm explaining.
3 A. I don't want to violate a law in telling you
4 to do so because then that puts me in the
5 trip bag. I have no problems at all and
6 would have liked to early on told everything
7 that I know and I was told that I couldn't do
8 it until the file itself was released and
9 then me talking about it would be mute
10 because it would be all in the file.
11 Q. Well, one of the things I'm going to tell you
12 today is when you leave this room you're not
13 to talk about what we talked about, okay?
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. And I'm going to tell that to everybody that
16 comes through the door.
17 A. And I don't have any problems with that.
18 Q. But I am going to tell you that I'm going to
19 talk with the Police Chief and we're going to
20 find out why he thinks I can't know about
21 that. And one of the things that I'll be
22 doing is making a recommendation based on
23 what recommendations I can do, I can discover
24 facts, I can have people refuse to tell me
25 those facts and they then can be disciplined
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1 by whatever the body is, or they can tell me
2 stuff and the stuff that they tell me if it's
3 something they shouldn't be doing they can
4 get fired. It's not a good scenario.
5 A. I would love to tell you, but I just don't 6 want to get myself in trouble by doing so.
7 Q. Well, you're going to get in trouble by not
8 doing so because I need to investigate this.
9 A. I'd like to have some professional counsel
10 before I do so. And I'm a little troubled by
11 to me the issue is how did the note get
12 removed, not what's in the note.
13 Q. Well, we're going to look into that. I'm
14 going to look into that. One of the things
15 I've been asked to do is find out both of
16 these councilmen's involvement in certain
17 issues. You know as well as I do what I'm
18 supposed to be doing here, the City Council
19 gave me three matters to talk about, and I
20 don't think there's any secret about it. It
21 was in the newspaper before I even got here.
22 A. One of them was the nature of the
23 disappearance of the post-it note.
24 Q. Well, if you want me to be more specific,
25 "The conduct of the Mayor Pro Tem Scearce
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1 involving lease of a building to an
2 individual convicted of bookmaking.
3 Specifically it was the desire of the City
4 that Loraine request the file held by the
5 Federal Bureau of Investigation regarding
6 Scearce's conduct and provide a report of the
7 same to the Council members. Two, facts and
8 circumstances surrounding release of
9 information related to Mr. Scearce's conduct
10 including but not limited to the handwritten
11 note referenced by -"
12 A. Say that again. Could you slow down?
13 Q. "Facts and circumstances surrounding release
14 of information related to Mr. Scearce's
15 conduct including but not limited to the
16 handwritten note referenced by Mr. Scearce in
17 City Manager's Rohr's handwriting. Number 3,
18 the fact and circumstance in an ethical
19 consideration surrounding the involvement of
20 Council member Woolston with Charlie Kuehn,
21 Four State Homes and subsidiaries and related
22 entities, and the City's master developer
23 Wallace-Bajjali with respect to the purchase, 24 sale or leasing of real estate for current
25 and future developments."
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1 A. Who wrote that?
2 Q. This? I don't know. It was in the newspaper
3 and this is my contract.
4 A. That's a direct quote from the newspaper?
5 Q. It is. And it's also my contract.
6 A. I remember the discussion at the Council
7 meeting it was the nature of the
8 circumstances of the disappearance of the
9 post-it note.
10 Q. That's one of the things that I'm looking at
11 here that I just told you.12 A. Well, but I mean we're concentrating on
13 specifics on the post-it note which I think
14 is not the primary issue. The primary issue
15 is in my mind a crime was committed. It was
16 sitting on my credenza in my office and Mr.
17 Scearce ended up with it. Now how did that
18 happen?
19 Q. I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell
20 everybody how that happened at the end of
21 this investigation, but one of the things I
22 need to do is I need to have answers to the
23 questions. If everybody came in here and
24 said what you said I wouldn't be able to tell
25 anybody anything.
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1 A. I'm not trying to be pretentious, I just 2 don't want to commit a crime by telling you
3 what --
4 Q. Well, guess what, I just told you when we 5 read this thing that you signed that you
6 can't be committing a crime if you reported
7 the information. Do you want to read this
8 again, Exhibit #A? Read it again.
9 A. (Witness complies) So you're asking me to
10 tell you specifics of what the Police Chief
11 told me?
12 Q. I'm asking you to tell me everything the
13 Police Chief told you. And will you comply
14 with my request?
15 A. And I'm not subject to any criminal charges?16 Q. That's what it says.
17 A. Okay. Then I guess I'll tell you everything
18 I can tell you.
19 Q. I think you should, but I'm not your lawyer.
20 Okay, let's talk about the question what did
21 the Police Chief tell you about Mr. Scearce?
22 A. He told me that he had involvement, business
23 involvement with an illegal bookmaking
24 operation, and that he rented his space in
25 the early 90's I believe for a four year time
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1 period for an illegal bookmaking operation.
2 Q. Mr. Lovett?
3 A. It was either Lyle or Lovett.
4 Q. Okay. What else did he tell you?
5 A. That Mr. Scearce facilitated expansion of the
6 bookmaking operation because I guess it was
7 doing well and needed other amenities and
8 things to enable it to operate in the growing
9 manner that was apparently taking place.
10 Q. Okay. What else?
11 A. And that he told me that he wanted me to know
12 and he thought the Mayor should know in light
13 of any potential charges that could be
14 brought against Mr. Scearce and against the
15 City in an unfavorable light.
16 Q. And these are all things that the Police
17 Chief himself told you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What's the Police Chief's name?
20 A. Lane Roberts.
21 Q. I'll be talking to him soon. What else did
22 he tell you?
23 A. That Mr. Scearce admitted to those facts to
24 the investigators thinking that the statute
25 of limitations had expired.
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1 Q. You mean the federal investigators?
2 A. I believe it was the FBI and there were some
3 local people that were assisting in it. I
4 don't know who they are.
5 Q. You don't know anything --
6 A. I know one guy's name was Altic.
7 Q. Who?
8 A. Altic, James Altic.
9 Q. What does James Altic do? How do you spell
10 that name?
11 A. I think it's A-L-T-I-C, or T-E-C.
12 Q. What does he do?
13 A. He used to work for us and was assisting the
14 FBI investigation. He has since retired.
15 Q. City policeman?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Is he still available?
18 A. I think so. I think he's the Chief at one of
19 the smaller cities.
20 Q. Would Lane Roberts know where he is?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Let me have his name again so I can get that
23 name down. Do you want to spell that again
24 for me?
25 A. I believe it's A-L-T-I-C or T-E-C, one of the
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1 two.
2 Q. And he was an investigator for the City of
3 Joplin?
4 A. He was an officer. I'm not exactly sure what
5 capacity. He was helping in the
6 investigation. He may have been an
7 investigator. I'm not real sure.
8 Q. Okay. Is there anything else that you can
9 remember that the Police Chief told you
10 concerning the investigation of Mr. Scearce
11 by the FBI?
12 A. Nothing that I can recall at this point.
13 Q. Did the Police Chief tell you what his source
14 of his information was?
15 A. No, I don't remember. He may have. I assume
16 it was directly from the investigation.
17 Q. But you don't recall as you sit here now?
18 A. He did mention that he had asked the FBI for
19 permission to convey the limited
20 circumstances of the investigation to me and
21 the Mayor.
22 Q. Who was his contact with the FBI?
23 A. He may have mentioned it, but I don't
24 remember. I know they change cases quite a
25 bit.
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1 Q. They do. In this article, "Joplin Mayor Pro
2 Tem Accuses City Manager of Bully Tactics.
3 City Manager Releases Response". This is the
4 dispute between you and Scearce?
5 A. He called a press conference I believe
6 because he knew the article was going to
7 appear in the paper on Sunday and he called a
8 press conference that Friday and directed
9 charges at me, and once I found out what he
10 said I responded.
11 Q. What was your response?
12 A. I don't remember exactly what I said, but I
13 basically refuted his allegations, that I
14 wasn't the one behind the article. The Globe
15 had been looking into this for in excess of a
16 year and that I had conversations with them,
17 but I didn't prompt the article, that they'd
18 been working on it for quite some time and
19 that she asked me about it and I responded to
20 her questions and we talked about it.
21 Q. This would have been Carol?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you tell her what you told me?
24 A. I didn't tell her anything about the FBI
25 restrictions.
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1 Q. You just said that you had some information 2 that involved him?
3 A. Her main thrust was the March meeting because
4 it had the appearance of Mr. Scearce trying
5 to cover up and admonish the Police Chief for
6 doing what he did through me.
7 Q. Here is a quote, "He has stated to many that
8 he wants to be Mayor," making reference to
9 Mr. Scearce.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. "He will not be able to do so if I tell all
12 that I know regarding the circumstances." I
13 assume that's your quote?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. "Additionally having a strong personality
16 sitting in the City Manager's chair would
17 prevent him from imposing his version of the
18 good ole boy network system government that
19 has held Joplin back in the past." If the
20 claim holds up when the article appeared in
21 the local paper on Sunday and even more so
22 when the FBI's records are it says, "In a
23 statement Mr. Scearce claims to be a fair and
24 honest person. Citizens of Joplin will have
25 an opportunity to decide if that claim holds
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1 up when the article appears in a local
2 newspaper on Sunday or even more so when the
3 FBI records are released."
4 A. Exactly.
5 Q. This is an article I'm reading in reference,
6 it's called Exhibit #2 in this investigation,
7 but it's something that you're aware of?
8 You're aware of this article?
9 A. I will say that's an accurate depiction of my
10 comments in response to this press
11 conference.
12 Q. So what is it that you believe that if he
13 runs for Mayor --
14 A. He doesn't run. He's appointed.
15 Q. And who is he appointed by, the other --
16 A. Council members.
17 Q. -- Council members. So if he's appointed to
18 Mayor you believe that you have information
19 that will discredit him to the extent that --
20 A. I think it's out. Mr. Scearce admitted, he
21 calls it clarifying, but admitted to the
22 paper a week ago Friday, he didn't use the
23 word lie, but that's what everyone thinks,
24 that he did know about the gambling operation
25 when he was on record to the Globe and the
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1 Council saying he didn't.
2 Q. He claims not to have known at the time that
3 he leased to the guy?
4 A. Yeah, he claims not to have known at all.
5 Q. Ever?
6 A. He's splitting hairs. He's trying to create
7 a nuance, a distinction. When did he find
8 out, I don't know, but he was on record
9 saying he had no idea that there was a
10 gambling operation there. And then a week
11 ago Friday I was out of town, apparently
12 towards the end of the day the Globe put out
13 an article saying Mr. Scearce printed a
14 clarification where he acknowledged he knew
15 there was a gambling operation in there.
16 Q. At some point?
17 A. That he had been on record before on one
18 occasion saying that he was not aware there
19 was a gambling operation.
20 Q. Do you have a copy of that article that
21 you're making reference to that he made the
22 admission?
23 A. Sure.
24 Q. I'm going to give you a sheet of paper here.
25 I'll take that back. Maybe if you will
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1 follow-up giving me --
2 A. I'd be glad to do that, but it's also
3 available at the Globe.
4 Q. Well, you know, anything that will help me.
5 I've got a couple of dozen people to talk to.
6 A. Yeah, I'm sure knowing the players as I do
7 that you're getting a sculpted scenario.
8 Q. Well, I'd hope that we can get information
9 from you that will --
10 A. Well, not just me. There's other people.11 Q. When you say knowing the people who are you
12 making reference to?
13 A. The Globe asked the following Sunday in I
14 think the letters to the editor for his
15 resignation for betraying the public trust
16 for lying about that.
17 Q. Has Carol Stark talked with you recently in
18 the last couple of days?
19 A. No.
20 Q. I asked Carol Stark to talk to me. She
21 wouldn't do it. Why is that?
22 A. I have no idea.
23 Q. I think if she's got some information that
24 would help me on this case that she'd be
25 happy to do that. I would think that. I
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1 mean she can say some of my sources are
2 private or whatever, but in any case she
3 wouldn't talk to me and I'm kind of troubled
4 by that. Do you know her well?
5 A. I mean I know her to see her on the street
6 and chitchat with her, but it's not like we
7 --
8 Q. No social?
9 A. No, never.
10 Q. Are you married?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What is the relationship between Mr. Woolston
13 and you?
14 A. He was Mayor during the storm and I was
15 obviously City Manager. I respect him. I
16 think he's a very honest man, a very
17 straightforward man, a very good Council
18 member. He's a very good man. Other than
19 that --
20 Q. No social?
21 A. No social. I mean if we're at a downtown
22 event and he's there we may sit together for
23 awhile. It's not like we make plans to go
24 out drinking together or anything like that.
25 Q. Has the Police Chief told you that he has
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1 some kind of power to keep information from
2 the rest of the board or from the Council or
3 from you or from the City Attorney or
4 something? Does he claim to have some kind
5 of --
6 A. He's never said that or implied that. I
7 personally thought he was pretty judicious in 8 how he went about releasing information. He
9 just thought the City would be in a very 10 embarrassing situation should charges be
11 brought if the two top officials of the City
12 weren't aware of anything that was going on
13 with respect to Mr. Scearce, and this has
14 been going on for years. This has been going
15 on for five years.
16 Q. Are any of those mayors aware of these
17 allegations?
18 A. I mean you'd have to ask them. I don't
19 remember the exact conversation, but they
20 knew that there was an issue and that Mr.
21 Scearce was somehow involved with the
22 investigation.
23 Q. Who are the mayors you're making reference
24 to?
25 A. Gary Shaw, Mike Woolston, and the current
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1 one, Mayor Kean, Colbert-Kean.
2 Q. Has your Police Chief initiated his own
3 investigation on Scearce?
4 A. No. Maybe it's just your nature as an 5 investigator you have to do that, but Lane
6 Roberts is a very honorable man and in my
7 estimation there isn't any fault to be laid
8 in his lap. He was doing what he thought he
9 needed to do to convey information to us so
10 that in the event that charges were brought
11 or something embarrassing would happen with
12 respect to Mr. Scearce that we weren't caught
13 flat-footed.
14 Q. Why wouldn't Chief Roberts be interested in
15 investigating a matter like that?
16 A. Because this was part of an overall federal
17 investigation that encompassed a lot of
18 different things and a lot of different
19 people, not just Mr. Scearce. Mr. Scearce 20 was a part of it. I couldn't characterize
21 the percentage of it, but this wasn't about
22 investigating Mr. Scearce, it was a broad
23 investigation and this developed as a result
24 of it and he would have to get into the
25 specifics because this wasn't just about Mr.
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1 Scearce.
2 Q. Mr. Woolston was involved in a company called
3 Pro 100?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. What was his involvement in that Pro 100?
6 A. He was just a salesman my understanding.7 Q. And the broker in that was Charlie Kuehn?
8 A. No, Mr. Kuehn is not a principle in Pro 100.
9 He's with the company I think is called Four
10 State Homes.
11 Q. Who were the principles in Pro 100?
12 A. Nick Kanakis, there's Dee Kassab, there's
13 another guy, I don't remember his name, an
14 older gentleman. There used to be four.
15 Doris Carlin is the fourth, but she's
16 separated. I believe there's just three now, 17 but I don't have any intimate knowledge of
18 Pro 100 and how they operate.
19 Q. Go through those names again for me.
20 A. Dee Kassab.
21 Q. You might help me a little with the spelling.
22 A. D-E-E K-A-S-S-A-B. Nick Kanakis, N-I-C-K
23 K-A-N-A-K-I-S. There was another gentleman,
24 I can see his face, probably in his 60's, but
25 I don't remember what his name is.
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1 Q. Did Pro 100 work on the land acquisition for
2 the Land Bank?
3 A. Not to my knowledge.
4 Q. Who does Charlie Kuehn work for?
5 A. I think he works for himself. He's got his
6 own business.
7 Q. That's that Four State Homes?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And has he worked for your Land Bank?
10 A. I don't think he was working for them. He
11 had acquired property I would assume for his
12 own purposes in advance of that and at a
13 certain point he developed a relationship
14 with Wallace-Bajjali, and what the nature of 15 that relationship is I'm not sure. I'm not
16 privy to that.
17 Q. How did this buying this real estate, how did
18 it all come about? What do you know about
19 that?
20 A. The City hired a master developer,
21 Wallace-Bajjali, out of Texas and the purpose 22 was to work on different projects some of 23 which had been developed and presented in the
24 past within the City, some of them were new
25 of their creation that they presented a list
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1 to Council. And any time following a natural
2 disaster when you try to do bigger type
3 projects it's a real challenge to aggregate 4 the property necessary so the City used the
5 JRC, the Joplin Redevelopment Corporation, as
6 the means to acquire that property, and that
7 property in turn would be sold to the master
8 developer so the projects can proceed. So I 9 think Mr. Kuehn had bought some of the
10 property early on and at some point formed
11 some kind of relationship with
12 Wallace-Bajjali so that the property that was 13 needed in the areas that he had already
14 acquired could be used for some of the bigger
15 projects.16 Q. Did Charlie Kuehn make a profit on that?
17 A. I don't know what the circumstances are, sir.
18 Q. How did Charlie Kuehn get connected with
19 Wallace-Bajjali?20 A. I think they just met organically. I'm not 21 sure who facilitated that and how that
22 actually happened. You'd be surprised in a
23 town the size of Joplin how many connections
24 are made just on the street so I don't know 25 how that happened.
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1 Q. Do you know if this Lovett is around? I
2 understand he actually did some hard time.
3 A. I don't know, there were three bookies that
4 were involved. I don't know any of them
5 personally, I don't believe I've ever met any
6 of them. There's one that's in poor health
7 in Las Vegas and there's two that are still
8 local, Lyle, one of them is named Lyle, one
9 of them is Lovett, and then there's a third
10 one.
11 Q. That's the guy in Vegas?
12 A. I think it probably is, but I don't know that
13 for sure.
14 Q. You've never met or talked with any of them?
15 A. They could have been at one of those
16 gatherings when I first got here, it could
17 have been in a Kiwanis club, I may have done
18 that, but I wouldn't recognize them if they
19 ran me over in a car.
20 Q. Who contacted Wallace-Bajjali from the City?21 A. Wallace-Bajjali was having their meeting at a 22 convention type setting with Chris Crossland
23 who is one of the sons of a noteworthy
24 construction company when the tornado hit and
25 they were off site somewhere and Chris had to
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1 excuse himself because he got a call because
2 his mom's home was impacted and that's how
3 they found out about Joplin. Then from there
4 it went to the Chamber of Commerce and Rob
5 O'Brian, and from there it went to the City.
6 Q. Rob?
7 A. O'Brian, who is the President of the Chamber.
8 Q. The City and the Chamber have some kind of a
9 relationship?
10 A. The Chamber does the economic development
11 activities for the City. They contract with
12 them.
13 Q. You actually pay them money to do that?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. When you say Bajjali contacted the City who 16 did they contact?
17 A. Wallace-Bajjali, the introduction with 18 Wallace-Bajjali was made through the Chamber 19 to the City.
20 Q. And who at the Chamber?
21 A. Mr. O'Brian.
22 Q. And what's his first name?
23 A. Rob.
24 Q. How do you know Rob?
25 A. I work with him every week.
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1 Q. Daily?
2 A. Not daily.
3 Q. And he was officially President of the
4 Chamber at that time?
5 A. He is. He's the professional. He's not the
6 Chamber - they've got a Chairman of the
7 Board, but his title --
8 Q. Like Executive Director or something?
9 A. Yes, he's my equivalent.
10 Q. So you guys work fairly closely?
11 A. Yeah, probably once a week, maybe once every
12 two weeks.
13 Q. Are you social friends with him?
14 A. No, we've never done anything socially.
15 Q. So who brought the Wallace-Bajjali company to 16 the attention of the board? Would it be you
17 or was it --
18 A. Of the board being the City Council?
19 Q. Yes, the City Council.
20 A. I guess probably me, yeah.
21 Q. Was Rob participating in that?
22 A. Yeah, the first meeting that I remember was
23 they were in town and over at the Chamber and
24 Rob had invited me over and that's where I
25 met him and that's where they sold their
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1 wares. That's where they said here's what we
2 do, here's what we can do. We went through a
3 competitive process eventually for our FPs
4 and I think there were six firms that
5 submitted and Council through that process
6 chose Wallace-Bajjali.7 Q. Who were the other firms?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. Is there a record of that?
10 A. Yeah, I'm sure.
11 Q. Do you know what rose Benji Rosenberg, Dr. 12 Benji Rosenberg, he's on the Council, what 13 role did he have in this development program?
14 A. He's the Council liaison, which means he
15 attends the meetings but doesn't cast a vote.
16 He's kind of an ex officio member.
17 Q. So he would actually shovel diplomacy back
18 and forth between the two entities?
19 A. Yeah, I guess that's the theory.
20 Q. How long has he been doing that?
21 A. Oh, I think from the get go. I mean I don't
22 know when he was appointed to do that, but I
23 think all throughout the whole
24 Wallace-Bajjali experience, the 25 Wallace-Bajjali/City experience I believe he
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1 was the liaison.
2 Q. He seems to have some kind of complaint about
3 Mr. Woolston. Are you aware of any of that?
4 A. Yeah, I mean that was after Mr. Woolston
5 initiated discussion related to Mr. Scearce a
6 meeting or two later Dr. Rosenberg brought up
7 concerns that he had related to Mr.
8 Woolston's experience with Wallace-Bajjali 9 and various property sales.
10 Q. So am I getting the impression someway that -
11 you know, I don't know any of these people.
12 I'm getting the impression that Rosenberg is
13 not a fan of Woolston then?
14 A. I say that's probably safe to assume.
15 Q. That's your impression?
16 A. Dr. Rosenberg is good friends as he stated in
17 the paper with Mr. Scearce.
18 Q. Do you get along okay with Rosenberg?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Let me back up on that question. I don't
21 want to put you in a bad spot. Let me ask
22 you this question. If I talk with Rosenberg
23 he's not going to be critical of too much of
24 what Scearce has allegedly done?
25 A. I'm assuming on my part that he wouldn't be.
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1 I don't know, you'd have to ask him.
2 Q. Just trying to get a feel for the players.
3 And I will talk to him.
4 A. Sure.
5 Q. What about Golden. He's on the board?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Would he be in a similar situation?
8 A. He's friends with Benji and Mr. Scearce. I 9 believe he and Dr. Rosenberg went to school
10 all the way through together. They're the
11 same age.
12 Q. How many people do you have on your City
13 Council?
14 A. Nine.
15 Q. I've got four identified there. I've got
16 Woolston, Golden, Rosenberg, and Scearce.
17 Where are the rest of them? Who are the
18 other five?
19 A. Morris Glaze, Trisha Raney, Mike Seibert,
20 Gary Shaw, and Mayor Kean.
21 Q. I'm sorry, the second one was?
22 A. Trisha Raney.
23 Q. Let's go down to Morris Glaze. What's your
24 perception of where does Morris Glaze fall on
25 this he/she did it deal? What's your
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1 impression? That's all I'm asking.
2 A. My impression would be that he would think
3 Mr. Scearce has some issues.
4 Q. So he would be a Woolston guy, is that right?
5 A. If I were venturing a guess I'd say yes.
6 Q. What about Raney?
7 A. She seems to be good friends with the Mayor.
8 I've never asked her her opinion on it. If
9 I'd venture a guess I'd say she'd probably be
10 sympathetic to Mr. Scearce.
11 Q. That's the present Mayor?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Where would she fall?
14 A. Well, maybe I'd better back up. When the
15 current Mayor was picked it was 5 to 4 and it
16 was the Mayor, Trisha Raney, Scearce,
17 Rosenberg, and Golden that voted for her, so
18 if that tells you anything.
19 Q. What's the Mayor's name?
20 A. Mayor Colbert-Kean. But I mean you'd have to
21 ask her what her opinion is on the subject.22 Q. We will. I'm not going to put you out there
23 all by yourself, I'm going to be talking to
24 all these people. But I mean you're part of
25 the reason why I'm here.
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1 A. Sure.
2 Q. So I start with you.
3 A. Right. I don't have anything to hide, I just 4 don't want to make them mad at me. They
5 deserve to be able to respond to their own
6 questions.
7 Q. And they will.
8 A. Sure.
9 Q. So where is Seibert at?
10 A. I think Seibert would probably be sympathetic
11 to Mr. Woolston.
12 Q. And Shaw?
13 A. I think he'd probably be sympathetic with Mr.
14 Woolston, too.
15 Q. Seems like we have two camps?
16 A. Well, there's a lot of talk in town about a
17 divided Council so I think that's not a
18 stretch of the imagination, but that's where
19 we're at.
20 Q. Gary Shaw is a former Mayor?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Why is he no longer the Mayor?
23 A. Every two years in April after the April
24 elections when they seat a new Council they
25 collectively vote as a group on who they want
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1 to be Mayor and they pick that person. Gary
2 was the Mayor probably four or five years
3 ago, then it was Woolston, now it's Mayor
4 Colbert-Kean and they go through the
5 selection process. And it's usually a pretty
6 big deal.
7 Q. How do you survive under that condition?
8 A. Well, I've made it this far. I don't know.
9 I'm not sure. We try to do our best.
10 Q. How many contracts do you think we've bought?
11 How many pieces of property?
12 A. Property? I'd say 50 or so.
13 Q. Have you, yourself, done any review of these
14 properties whether Woolston --
15 A. Very cursory.
16 Q. Let me finish that question. Whether
17 Woolston was in any way out of line in
18 involvement in any of these property
19 acquisitions?
20 A. Have I personally investigated?
21 Q. Have you looked at any of the 50 transactions
22 to see if there was high prices paid or
23 anything?
24 A. No, I haven't looked at it that closely. I
25 mean there's just too much going on, too many
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1 things going on. I've got to recover from
2 the EF-5 tornado and everything involved with
3 that, work with the master developer, and run
4 the City at the same time and deal with
5 everything else I have to deal with so I've
6 looked at the agenda items as they've come
7 up, I've not plunged into it to any great
8 detail.
9 Q. Who would? I mean somebody has got to be
10 auditing these things.
11 A. I would imagine the City Attorney. He's the
12 legal advisor for all the JRC operations. To
13 what degree I don't know, you'd have to ask
14 him, but I would imagine he would look at
15 them more closely than anyone.
16 Q. Do you have any financial people involved in
17 this?
18 A. Yes, our Finance Director is part of the
19 process, too.
20 Q. Who is that?
21 A. Leslie Haase, H-A-A-S-E.
22 Q. And what is Leslie Haase's background?
23 A. She's a CPA.
24 Q. Do you know if she has done any review work?
25 Does she work for you?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Has she done any review work on these
3 contract prices or anything?
4 A. Well, what happens is Wallace-Bajjali will 5 present them to the City and the City will
6 put them on the JRC agenda. How closely they
7 look at them I don't know. You'd have to ask
8 them specifically.
9 Q. Who is they?
10 A. Leslie and Brian, the Finance Director and
11 City Attorney.
12 Q. As far as the set up on how all this got
13 going what the City Attorney's input into
14 that?
15 A. In terms of?
16 Q. Setting up the 353.
17 A. I think he's one of the primary people in the
18 whole process.
19 Q. I have gleaned from some sources in the City
20 that there's been complaints concerning the
21 City Attorney's involvement in some of the
22 early goings of the 353 Land Bank acquisition
23 period. Are you familiar with any of those
24 complaints?
25 A. Complaints about what he was doing?
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1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Not specifically. I know there's complaints
3 about him in general, but not about the early
4 part of the process anymore than the latter
5 part of the process.
6 Q. Did any Council members tell you that he
7 should have been involved and wasn't involved
8 in the early processes of the land
9 acquisition? Have you heard those
10 complaints?
11 A. No, mainly the complaints are that he - the
12 complaints I've heard is that he tends to be
13 on the negative side as it relates to
14 Wallace-Bajjali.15 Q. Why would that be?
16 A. I don't know. I mean it's kind of a deep
17 seeded issue. I've worked with him for nine
18 years and I have my own theories, but that's
19 the nature I heard as it relates to the City
20 Attorney to the redevelopment process, or
21 that he is perhaps a little negative on the
22 things with Wallace-Bajjali.23 Q. Just Wallace-Bajjali or --24 A. Yeah, he can be that way in other areas, too,
25 but I mean that was the nature of your
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1 question.
2 Q. There has been some discussion concerning the
3 Police Department's relevance in the affairs
4 of City employees. What has been your
5 observation as to the Police Department
6 investigating City employees?
7 A. I don't know of any of those concerns.
8 Q. You have no knowledge of that?
9 A. No. In terms of business activities?
10 Q. Well, I mean investigating them, yes. Not
11 only business, just in general City 12 employees. Does the Police Department look
13 into City employees' concerns?
14 A. I guess every situation would be different.
15 Q. You don't know of any general complaints
16 about that?
17 A. No, I don't know of anything. I think we
18 have a very professional Police Department,
19 very ethical Police Department. I don't see
20 any problems along those lines. There was a
21 situation recently at the Street Department
22 where we thought there were some issues
23 involving free maintenance and taking
24 materials and they were asked to look into
25 it, and the first night they looked into it
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1 they caught a guy taking stuff home.
2 Q. Did that result in criminal --
3 A. It was just a misdemeanor. They just caught 4 him.
5 Q. Was there a discharge or any kind of --
6 A. Yeah, we cleaned the whole department out.
7 We recently reorganized the whole Public
8 Works Department because there were a number
9 of different problems in there, and that was
10 part of the problem.
11 Q. You mentioned an ex member, one of the guys
12 --
13 A. Mr. Hertzberg, yes.
14 Q. Is that some of the result?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was that your investigation or the Police
17 Department?
18 A. It was kind of a combination. There were a
19 couple of major issues. There were 20 suspicions of theft that proved to be true to
21 some level through maintenance. Secondly
22 there were problems in the Building
23 Department with collecting fees for code
24 enforcement and for building permits.
25 Q. And not being properly accounted for?
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1 A. Right. And we looked into it. We think it
2 primarily was a management issue and that
3 management issue has been cleared up with
4 some of the changes we made.
5 Q. Double accounting now or something on it?
6 A. Daily deposits, part of the problem was the
7 deposits weren't getting from the Public
8 Works Department on the fourth floor to the
9 Finance Department on the third floor in a
10 timely manner, and things were happening so
11 quickly because of the tornado that they were
12 piling up and it just got sloppy.13 Q. What's your personal background?
14 A. I've been City Manager, December 2nd will be
15 26 years since this is the fifth city I've
16 managed, and I've been in Joplin 9 years and
17 5 days.
18 Q. Where are the other cities that you managed?
19 A. Newton Falls, Ohio; Washington Courthouse,
20 Ohio; Ponca Gordo, Florida; Piqua, Ohio; and
21 Joplin, Missouri.
22 Q. First Missouri municipal corporation job?23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. That was a yes for the record?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Did you have formalized training as a City
2 Manager?
3 A. Yeah, I've got a Master's Degree in Public
4 Administration, did an internship in the
5 first city that I worked for, then I was the
6 City Manager at the ripe old age of 27 so,
7 yes, I got some, but I learned a lot on the
8 job, too.9 Q. What school did you go to?
10 A. I went to Miami University in Oxford, Ohio
11 for undergrad, and Xavier University in
12 Cincinnati, Ohio for my Master's Degree.
13 Q. That includes ethics and legal backgrounds?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. When I asked you earlier if you had legal
16 training to the extent that legal overlaps on
17 city government I suppose you're aware of
18 when an attorney should be involved?
19 A. Sure, I had a one hour ethics class,
20 ironically enough, with a textbook written by
21 a guy named Rohr in my Master's program.
22 Q. He wasn't related, I hope?
23 A. No, it's one of the most helpful classes I
24 ever had because he got you to see things
25 from the outside looking in and how it would
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1 appear in public and a firm belief that what
2 comes out eventually needs to come out
3 immediately.
4 Q. I have been advised that there has been some
5 effort to discipline you in the near past
6 here. What was that all about?
7 A. Well, it stemmed from the Public Works
8 investigation, and my own opinion is that
9 there were agendas at play, and that was an
10 opportunity to play out some of those
11 agendas. I had to step in and correct the
12 Public Works situation, and Mr. Hertzberg is
13 a fine man, a really good man, worked for the
14 City for over 30 years, but was challenged in
15 his current position, and I had to reassign
16 him as a result of it. And the whole effort
17 that you're referring to came as a result of
18 that.
19 Q. What was the nature of the charge that was
20 brought against you?
21 A. It really wasn't clearly stated. I remember
22 hearing Dr. Rosenberg saying in the paper
23 that he thought I was bullying employees.
24 Q. I saw some statement about bullying.
25 A. And I just thought it was interesting that
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1 I'd been here eight and a half years at the
2 time and that's the first time that ever came
3 up. And I think there's a fine line between
4 enacting discipline when it has to be enacted
5 even though it's distasteful and a charge
6 like that.
7 Q. Have you had any complaints against you with
8 the Human Rights Commission as an officer?
9 A. Never.
10 Q. Any sexual misconducts or anything?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. Have you had any domestic issues that are
13 public?
14 A. There was an inadvertent 911 call late last
15 year at my house by my stepdaughter, but that
16 was erroneous. It was a miscommunication and
17 it was an embarrassing situation altogether,
18 but it was investigated by Council and the
19 Police Department and found not to have any
20 merit.
21 Q. Both the Police Department and the City
22 Council?
23 A. The Police Department did when they were
24 there, and they talked to the people that
25 were involved and said, no, nothing happened
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1 here, it was just a mess.2 Q. Communication problem with you and your
3 daughter?
4 A. Well, yeah, yeah. And then Council had a
5 closed session in which that was discussed,
6 and the Police Chief was in there, and he
7 made what had happened that it was found to
8 be without merit.
9 Q. Is there a police report on that?
10 A. There probably is. There's a file that's
11 been requested by community activists, the
12 Globe, and another citizen in the community,
13 and nothing has ever come of it because
14 there's nothing to come of it.
15 Q. Have you personally seen that report?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Who has that report?
18 A. The Police Department would have it. I
19 wasn't part of the investigation either, but
20 I know how things work around here.
21 Q. Well, the discipline issue has come up so I
22 mean there's no --
23 A. How is that related to - I don't understand
24 how it's related to the other stuff.
25 Q. Well, I mean anything is related that it's
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1 fit for conduct. If you're fit for your
2 office it can get into health issues and
3 everything, you know.
4 A. But I'm not the subject of the investigation. 5 I'm just wondering how someone else brings 6 that up to your attention.
7 Q. Maybe it just developed here in discussion, 8 but the simple matter is I've just been 9 advised that the City Council has brought
10 some charges and I want to know the nature --
11 A. It wasn't really charges, it was something
12 that was discussed.
13 Q. Did they file official papers on you?
14 A. Who is that?
15 Q. The City.
16 A. No, not that I know. There's a file because
17 --
18 Q. Do you have a procedure around here for
19 complaints, you know, for investigating
20 employee discipline and things?
21 A. I believe the Police Department has a
22 procedure.
23 Q. Not the City itself?
24 A. There may be. I don't know. I don't get too
25 involved in that aspect of things.
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1 Q. Who is your H.R. person?
2 A. Dave Allgood.
3 Q. Has he been here for awhile?
4 A. No, he hasn't. He's only been here for
5 approximately a year now.
6 Q. Dave Allgood. Sort of like a lawyer's name,
7 beat them and cheat them, you know. I think
8 I'd change my name. I used to know a lawyer
9 named Tom Beetamine and his friend was
10 Charlie Cheatham. Beat em and cheat em.
11 Why would you become a lawyer with that name?
12 A. Find a different partner.
13 Q. For sure. When things like this are brought
14 up I would think there would be a policy that
15 would be clear and concise, due process ought
16 to be involved.
17 A. There is.
18 Q. Name clearing hearings.
19 A. Council in the past I think that's the big
20 source of problems in the nine years I've
21 been here, what is the role of Mayor as it
22 relates to the City as a whole, what is the
23 role of Mayor as it relates to Council, and
24 how does Council police itself. There was a
25 situation about five years ago when they had
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1 to remove a Council member for violating
2 charter.
3 Q. You're a charter?
4 A. Right, and that's one of the concerns that
5 they were asked from my recollection to look
6 into was Mr. Scearce making some phone calls
7 involving himself in the administration as
8 opposed to his role as legislative.
9 Q. Have any of those issues come - I mean there
10 are going to be recommendations I make in
11 this thing and it doesn't seem like the
12 process is very well defined to me.
13 A. No, it isn't. You're very right. And I
14 thought that was one of the things that
15 Council brought up, that's what I remember
16 hearing is some of his calls related to
17 bonding issues with our legal counsel in the
18 bonding authority where he in my mind was
19 working in the administrative realm.
20 Q. He being?
21 A. Mr. Scearce. The charter is very specific
22 about the administration of the City is under
23 the sole authority of the City Manager.
24 That's the fundamental premise of the form of
25 government is to remove politics from it.
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1 Q. What chapter do you think that is in in the
2 charter?
3 A. I don't remember chapter and verse.
4 Q. Could you get me - one of the things I'd like
5 you to make a note on is get me --
6 A. Sure.
7 Q. You can use that pen. I'm interested to know
8 what part of the charter deals with your
9 authorities and the Council's and the
10 Mayor's.
11 A. Sure.
12 Q. What I'm hearing so far is confusing.
13 A. That's where we get in trouble in Joplin.
14 I've been here nine years, I don't think I
15 know everything, but I've got a pretty good
16 resource base to reflect on, but we don't
17 stay in our lanes very well. We converge
18 into other people's lanes and that's where we
19 have problems. And as you recognize it you
20 don't have rules and procedures to deal with
21 the convergence of lanes and we've got to
22 hire investigators to come in and clean it
23 up.
24 Q. It costs money and there's headaches and
25 problems.
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1 A. Yes. And he'll tell you --
2 Q. He?
3 A. Mr. Scearce is perfectly entitled to ask any
4 question that he wants at a point in time
5 that an issue is advanced to Council, and if
6 he's not ready to vote on anything or he
7 wants to make a thousand phone calls at that
8 point he's perfectly entitled to that. In my
9 mind he is not entitled to make phone calls
10 that interrupt the administrative flow we're
11 developing the information to present to
12 them.
13 Q. Micromanaging of some sort?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Anybody else on the board doing that?
16 A. No, not that I'm aware of. And that was one
17 of the things that was mentioned that night
18 was his call to a lady named Laura who is
19 involved in our bond counsel, asking her
20 questions and she's like, you're who? What's
21 this about?
22 Q. What's her name?
23 A. Laura - I'll have to get that to you. She's
24 with a company that helps us bring out bond
25 issues.
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1 Q. Legal counsel or just bond counsel?2 A. I think she's got a legal background, but
3 works for a finance company.
4 Q. Would you make a note to yourself to give me
5 her name and phone number or something?
6 Where is she out of?
7 A. They are out of I believe K.C.
8 Q. Do you remember what company that is? Is it
9 Sterner or something?
10 A. I should know, but I've got tornado on the
11 brain.
12 Q. If you don't mind giving me that information.
13 A. Sure. That's what creates problems and
14 that's why the charter is so definitive about
15 this is what you do and this is what you do.
16 Where you get into problems is where they
17 overlap.
18 Q. There aren't a whole lot of city charters in
19 Missouri. I know Hannibal is one and it
20 caused problems up there, but I don't know, a
21 big city obviously, but there are not a lot
22 of little cities that are charters. It is
23 unique.
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. And I think you're right, there's got to be
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1 some clarifications. Let me review my notes
2 and see where I'm at.
3 A. Stifel Nicholas I think is her --
4 Q. Okay, I know that one. And that name was?
5 A. Laura, I want to say Delano, but I'm not a
6 hundred percent sure.
7 Q. I'm going to let you get that information
8 back to me.
9 A. I will.
10 Q. Delano, what do you think?
11 A. D-E-L-A-N-O, I think it is.
12 Q. I'm going to put a question mark.
13 A. I wouldn't bet my life on the last name.
14 Q. I don't think she will be a lawyer. I mean
15 she's not acting as bond counsel as a lawyer,
16 but she's probably putting the bonds and
17 stuff together.
18 A. Her main function is finance.
19 Q. Someone does the legal portion of that bond,
20 I don't know who it is, probably some big
21 Kansas City firm. But, yes, that would be
22 disconcerting, I suppose.
23 A. And the only reason I brought it up I thought
24 that was one of the things that was mentioned
25 at the meeting that the investigator was
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1 supposed to look into.
2 Q. Didn't say that in my contract, but I think
3 that --
4 A. How about the KOAM?
5 Q. The what?
6 A. KOAM.
7 Q. What's that?
8 A. That's a local news station. That was
9 brought up, too.
10 Q. Somebody from a local news station and
11 somebody from - it wasn't Carol, but somebody
12 called asking what I was doing.
13 A. Well, that had to do with Mr. Scearce.
14 There's an unwritten rule of Council that
15 once a majority makes a decision that the 16 minority accepts that decision and moves on
17 and it's business as usual. And in that
18 instance there were allegations made that the
19 day after a vote was taken on a contract
20 where he was in the minority opinion that he
21 initiated, according to them, a contact with
22 KOAM to continue to keep that issue alive.
23 Protesting the decision --
24 Q. What's the name of that?
25 A. KOAM, it's a local TV station.
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1 Q. And what was the name of the contractor?
2 A. Wallace-Bajjali. It was a Wallace-Bajjali 3 project.4 Q. What was the allegation?
5 A. It was the senior housing project, and 6 Council had voted on the night before. And I
7 believe - I believe Mr. Scearce was
8 descending a vote, alone descending a vote.
9 And I heard more than one person make the
10 allegation that after that he called them,
11 initiated the contact, getting them,
12 prompting them to investigate into the
13 situation deeper even after the vote was
14 cast, which is more - it's nothing illegal,
15 it would be more of an ethical issue as it
16 relates from Council to Council.
17 Q. I guess the City Council as such are elected?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. So you get into - I had a similar situation
20 one time in St. Charles where a guy was just 21 calling cops donut eaters. I mean, just - 22 and it was part of the local newspaper and he
23 was an elected official. And if he had
24 worked for the city he probably would have
25 been discharged from his duties, but, you
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1 know, he was an elected councilman. Those
2 guys have a lot of freedom of speech.
3 A. Yeah, I'm not saying he did anything illegal,
4 it was more of an ethical thing as it relates
5 to Council's business. I thought it was one
6 of the things that was supposed to be
7 investigated.
8 Q. Well, I didn't see that, but I did hear
9 something about a senior housing project.10 A. What I remember was --
11 Q. That's still going on, isn't it?
12 A. Yeah. What I remember is the Woolston thing
13 about property, there was the Scearce and the
14 bookie, there was the post-it note, there was
15 KOAM, and then there was a call interfering
16 with administration.
17 Q. Last two didn't get to me, but that doesn't
18 mean, you know, we won't pursue them. I'm
19 here.
20 A. I'm pretty sure that was mentioned on Council
21 floor.
22 Q. Let me get those. What was the other one?
23 A. Laura Delano.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Involving himself in administration. You
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1 don't necessarily have to repeat the source
2 because I'm sure that will come back on me if
3 you do.
4 Q. Well, I mean I do this - I have to do this in
5 writing. That's what that is. That's a
6 transcript.
7 A. What I'm saying is that I remember those
8 things being talked about on Council floor.
9 Q. Well, you can't be held accountable for
10 truth, can you?
11 A. You should be held accountable for the truth.
12 Q. Well, I mean if you say the truth you should
13 be okay?
14 A. Should be.
15 Q. Yeah, that's the theory on it. Who is Costa?
16 A. Costa Bajjali is one of the principles of 17 Wallace-Bajjali.18 Q. That's with Bajjali, okay. Can you think of 19 any names of anybody that I should talk to
20 other than what we've discussed, including
21 these last two issues, that you think I need
22 to talk to to do my job properly here?23 A. I don't know who is on your list.
24 Q. I mean just give me some names that you think 25 and I'll decide whether or not they're on -
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1 you know, I've got names already, but anybody
2 that's just central to this investigation?3 A. Maybe some people from Wallace-Bajjali. Gary 4 Box, have you got him on your list?
5 Q. What's his name?
6 A. Gary Box, B-O-X.
7 Q. Gary Box, okay.
8 A. Works for Wallace-Bajjali. He's in their 9 local office.
10 Q. Will he come? I mean I don't have authority
11 to talk to people that aren't out of the
12 city.
13 A. I don't know. He knows a lot about the
14 history of the city and he knows a lot about
15 what is going on now. I don't know what all
16 he knows. I'm not doing it to throw him
17 under the bus.
18 Q. No, it's not a matter. I mean he either will
19 talk to me or he won't, but if there is some
20 - I mean he may have names that I need to
21 know about, so yeah, Gary Box. Do you have a
22 phone number for Wallace-Bajjali?23 A. No, I can get that for you.
24 Q. Would you mark that down?
25 A. Yeah. Can I get a copy of that? I'm getting
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1 all these things for you. Can I just get a 2 copy of that some time?
3 Q. Sure. Absolutely. There is supposedly a
4 phone that the City has given me, I don't
5 know where the heck it is, but if everything
6 else fails you can call my office in Osage
7 Beach and you can get hold of me.
8 A. I understand you had to ask questions about
9 the content - we didn't talk a whole lot
10 about my office which is secured.
11 Q. We're going to talk some more about it. I'm
12 not done yet, but thank you for reminding me.
13 Is there anybody else that you think I
14 should talk to? Obviously it goes without
15 saying any of the people on your list that
16 you've given me are people I probably need to
17 talk with.
18 A. Well, some of those people - I mean I don't
19 know how it all happened. Some of those
20 people I think are extremely or would not be
21 capable of participating in that.
22 Q. Who would be? Put check marks.
23 A. Can I go off the record?
24 Q. No, you sure can't. If you don't want me to
25 talk to somebody don't give it to me. If you
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1 do want me to talk to somebody --
2 A. I mean there's only one name on there that I
3 would even think it would be possible. I
4 don't have any knowledge that they did.
5 Q. I understand that, but I mean if it's
6 somebody I ought to look at.
7 A. But if it's written down I'm going to pay
8 hell for that later on if it doesn't prove
9 true.
10 Q. You can't withhold the information from me so
11 you don't want to do that.
12 A. Well, I don't know, it's just --13 Q. I understand. Those are people that you
14 think might have --
15 A. No, I think most everyone there would not be
16 capable of that as a person. There might be
17 a name or two that might be, but I don't have
18 any