COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

PROFESSIONAL LICENSURE COMMITTEE PUBLIC HEARING

STATE CAPITOL HARRISBURG, PA

RYAN OFFICE BUILDING ROOM 2 05

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 2 016 9:31 A.M.

PRESENTATION ON HOUSE BILL 1357

STATE LICENSURE OF PLUMBERS

BEFORE:HONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLE

JULIE HARHART, MAJORITY CHAIRROSEMARY BROWNJIM CHRISTIANAGARY DAYKEITH GILLESPIEDAVID MILLARDJAMES SANTORACURTIS SONNEYHARRY READSHAW, DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN TINA DAVIS JARET GIBBONS WILLIAM KORTZ

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Pennsylvania House of Representatives Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

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COMMITTEE STAFF PRESENT:WAYNE CRAWFORD

MAJORITY EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR MAUREEN BEREZNAK

MAJORITY RESEARCH ANALYST ANGIE KELLY

MAJORITY LEGISLATIVE ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT

KEONTAY HODGEDEMOCRATIC LEGISLATIVE ASSISTANT

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I N D E X

TESTIFIERS

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NAME PAGE

WALTER KRZYZANOWSKI PRESIDENT,PLUMBERS LOCAL #690............................ ..... 8

MICHAEL MCGRAWEXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,PENNSYLVANIA PLUMBING-HEATING-COOLING CONTRACTORS ASSOCIATION........................ .... 14

JOHN KANESECRETARY-TREASURER,PLUMBERS LOCAL #690............................ .... 18

JOHN CUMMINSPRESIDENT,J.W. CUMMINS PLUMBING, INC..................... .... 23

MARTIN O'TOOLEBUSINESS MANAGER,PLUMBERS LOCAL #27............................. .... 27

KEVIN GLASSONPRESIDENT,MCINTYRE PLUMBING & HEATING................... .... 29

REPRESENTATIVE JIM CHRISTIANAPRIME SPONSOR OF H.B. 1357 ..................... .... 59

WILL SEILHAMER PRESIDENT,ASSOCIATED BUILDERS AND CONTRACTORS, INC., CUMBERLAND VALLEY CHAPTER...................... .... 63

RICK BLOOMINGDALE PRESIDENT,PENNSYLVANIA ALF-CIO........................... .... 75

KEVIN CLARKEIMMEDIATE PAST PRESIDENT,BUILDING OWNERS AND MANAGERS ASSOCIATION, PITTSBURGH...................................... .... 83

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SUBMITTED WRITTEN TESTIMONY

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(See submitted written testimony and handouts online.)

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P R O C E E D I N G S

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MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Good morning, everybody.

ALL: Good morning.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Glad to see you all here

on this wonderful breezy morning.

We do have a room in the Irvis Building. It’s

Room G-50 that if you would like to sit down and be

comfortable, you may attend there. There will be monitors

that you can watch the hearing if you’d so like. So feel

free to just go on down to G-50. Or if you’re comfortable

and we’re not obstructing the fire codes, you may stay.

That’s okay.

Now, the prime sponsor of the bill is going to be

late, so when he comes, I will introduce him, and I know he

does want to say a few words. He had snow in his area, so

he’s got a little bit of a late start and it was a little

rough coming in. But he will be here hopefully.

And the hour of 9:30 a.m. having arrived, I would

like to call to order this meeting of the House

Professional Licensure Committee to order. I also would

like to address my counterpart, which is Chairman Harry

Readshaw. He is my counterpart on the Democratic side.

And, Mr. Readshaw, if you would like to say a few words to

the group, you may do so.

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DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN READSHAW: Thank you, Madam

Chair.

I would just like to take a few minutes to

obviously welcome and thank everybody for their attendance

today. It’s a nice crowd, a good crowd. I’m sure

everybody’s concerned about the topic. And a particular

thanks to those who will be testifying. So once again, our

great thanks for your attendance and for those who are

going to testify. And I’m sure we’ll have a very

informative hearing.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.

Okay. And the first order of business, I would

like to ask -- now, we’re going to do it this way, a little

bit different. I’d like to ask each of the Members of the

Professional Licensure Committee to introduce themselves

and state where they’re from. Okay. And we’ll start down

with you, Representative Kortz.

REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everyone. My name is Representative Bill

Kortz. I’m from Allegheny County, 38th District.

REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: Good morning. Curt

Sonney. I represent the Fourth Legislative District, which

is eastern Erie County.

REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Good morning. Rosemary

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Brown. I have Monroe and Pike Counties, which is the 189th

District.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Good morning. Jamie

Santora, Delaware County, the 163rd Legislative District.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Good morning. Tina Davis,

Bucks County. And welcome.

DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN READSHAW: Representative

Harry Readshaw, Allegheny County, 36th District.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Julie Harhart, 183rd,

Lehigh, Northampton Counties.

REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Gary Day, the 187th

District, Lehigh and Berks Counties.

REPRESENTATIVE MILLARD: David Millard, 109th

District, Columbia County.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Now, we are

holding this public hearing to take testimony on House Bill

1357 finally after four times that I know I had to cancel

the Committee meeting. And I do apologize for that, but it

couldn’t be helped. And this legislation establishes a

State licensing program for plumbers.

So I welcome and thank all of you for coming.

And, as I said, the prime sponsor is not here yet, but when

he arrives, I will introduce him.

But we will start with the first panel, and if

you would all please, the first panel, come and sit at the

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table there. Take those chairs. And it’s Walter -­

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Krzyzanowski.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Krzyzanowski. Okay.

You’re the President of the Plumbers Local 690; John Kane,

Secretary-Treasurer, Plumbers Local 690; Martin O ’Toole,

Business Manager, Plumbers Local #27; Michael McGraw,

Executive Director, PA PHCC, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling

Contractors Association; John Cummins, President, J.W.

Cummins Plumbing, Inc.; and Kevin Glasson, President,

McIntyre Plumbing & Heating. Welcome, gentlemen.

Okay. So I believe each of you are going to give

testimony? Okay. So I don’t care how you start if you

want to start on this end or this end and just go right

through, and then after everybody gives their testimony,

then we’ll open up for questions, okay?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Good morning, Madam

Chairwoman, Chairman Readshaw, and the Members of the

Licensure Committee. Thanks for hearing our testimonies

today.

This is the testimony of Walter Krzyzanowski.

I’m the President and Executive Director of the Plumbing

Contractors and the Union Affiliated Contractors of Local

#690. I’m also a licensed master plumber in the City of

Philadelphia #2749. I’m a member and trustee of Plumbers

Union Local 690 in Philadelphia. I am a member of the

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Executive Committee of the State PA PHCC and I’m a past

two-term President of that organization. I’m a former

President and owner of Krzyzanowski Plumbing, Inc., a

commercial plumbing company in Philadelphia, PA.

My name is Water Krzyzanowski. I am the

President and Executive Director of the Plumbing

Contractors and the Union Affiliated Contractors of

Plumbers Union Local #690 in Philadelphia. Thank you for

hearing my testimony and accepting my written testimony in

support of House Bill #1357, the State licensure for

plumbers.

My involvement in the plumbing industry is very

extensive, dating back almost 50 years. I have been

involved in every and all areas of the plumbing industry

from design, installation, sales, education, and now

leadership. I am now and have always been extremely proud

to hold the title of master plumber and follow in my

father’s footsteps through a proud plumbing business, which

he started in 1956. I am proud to say that my son, a

third-generation master plumber, now runs this company. I

have another son well on his way to becoming a master

plumber as well.

My knowledge of the plumbing industry is not what

we’re here to discuss today. What we are here to discuss

is the benefits of passing the legislation before you

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today.

Plumbing is often taken for granted. People

stand in front of their sinks, turn on the faucet, and

expect to find clean, safe water to drink, bathe in, and

wash their clothes in, and a whole host of many other

things without ever knowing the amount of technology and

work that is involved to make this happen. They also

expect the sink, bathtub, washing machine, and et cetera

will drain, without again ever knowing what it takes to

dispose of waste in a safe, healthy, responsible manner

without contaminating our environment.

Plumbing installations and repairs done

incorrectly could not only sicken people and pets but cause

loss of life. Through dangerous and illegal cross

connections in drinking water systems performed by

untrained, unlicensed, and unskilled people could have a

devastating affect on the health and safety of masses of

men, women, children and pets alike. This is evident in

the unfortunate situation that now exists in Flint,

Michigan, and many other areas of our State and country

that never make it into the media.

If passed, this legislation would add a

significant layer of protection for all consumers and

residents of the Commonwealth. It would enhance the State

Attorney General’s registration of contractors and would go

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a long way to ensure the health, safety, and economic well­

being of everyone, especially the elderly portion of our

population, are protected.

This legislation is supported equally by

organized labor and open shop or nonunion portion of the

industry. The people representing these interests are

extremely proud of the relationships developed and mutual

respect shown in coming together for the common goal of

protecting consumers and protecting business interests of

all plumbers and plumbing contractors in the Commonwealth

of Pennsylvania.

This legislation would not disrupt or change any

existing practices of job or work permitting. This

legislation would not disrupt or change any existing

practices regarding jurisdiction or work assignments.

Pennsylvania is one of only six States in the

country that currently does not have a statewide license

for plumbers. It puts Pennsylvania plumbing contractors at

a disadvantage on several levels. Because Pennsylvania has

no uniform or consistent manner of licensing plumbers or

plumbing contractors, it is extremely difficult and in most

cases impossible for Pennsylvania contractors to perform

any work in the States that border Pennsylvania, who all

but one have statewide licensure.

Conversely, plumbing contractors from the

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surrounding States have the ability to enter Pennsylvania

and perform plumbing projects due to the fact that mostly

every township and municipality in the State of

Pennsylvania will recognize the credentials from these

States because of their statewide and state-mandated

plumbing license. These contractors come in from out of

State and often do not pay all of the taxes that

Pennsylvania-based contractors pay on a daily basis, such

as State and local taxes and local sales taxes.

Pennsylvania contractors employ local workers,

your constituents, and support the local and State economy

on a daily basis.

There is also an economic component to this

legislation. If passed, this legislation could be

responsible for millions of dollars on an annual basis in

licensing fees. As proposed, the State Board of Plumbing

Contractors would oversee licensing and be a self-

sustaining board. Under this legislation, only an $85,000

appropriation is being requested, which will be paid back

by the State Board. The additional monies could certainly

be put to good use by the State for programs such as after

school programs, daycare, and assistance to the elderly,

just to name a few.

While most areas of the business sector complain

about too much government in business, the plumbing

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industry is an industry asking for more government

interaction, recognizing it would benefit consumers and

business interest alike. Under this legislation, plumbing

contractors would be required to purchase only one license

to perform work in the State of Pennsylvania, as opposed to

purchasing sometimes thousands of dollars’ worth of

licenses to perform services in each borough, township, and

municipality. This alone would represent a significant

cost savings to consumers.

Under the grandfather clause contained in this

legislation, careful consideration was given not to

adversely affect any person or persons currently providing

plumbing services that do not otherwise have any licensing

rules in the area of the State in which they work in.

Today or in the future, the Licensure Committee

may hear testimonies, views, and opinions from other groups

or organizations that represent little or no plumbers or

plumbing contractors. Although these groups have a right

to be heard and a right to their opinions, the plumbing

industry has met and considered the concerns of all groups

that have expressed concerns and have made many language

changes to the legislation over the last 10-plus years to

accommodate the concerns raised by these groups.

The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania requires State

licenses for many things from hairstyling, cosmetology,

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auto sales, interior design, and massage therapist, just to

name a few. Just about every trade or business that

requires a State licensure has a State Board. Recent

legislation was passed to ensure things like styling hair,

selling automobiles, and the training of hunting dogs are

done correctly. The plumbing industry feels that it is

time to regulate and oversee something that can sicken or

even kill you or a member of your family.

The universal motto of the plumbing industry

dating back to the 1800s is "The plumber protects the

health of the Nation." We as professional plumbers feel

the same sense of duty as our elected officials to protect

the public. Please help us in our mission in passing House

Bill #1357.

Thank you for allowing me the time to express my

views and opinions and the views and opinions of my members

and the entire plumbing industry. Respectfully submitted,

Walter Krzyzanowski.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you,

Mr. Krzyzanowski.

Who will go next? Would you mind stating your

name?

MR. MCGRAW: Michael McGraw.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you, Michael.

MR. MCGRAW: Madam Chair, Chairman Readshaw, and

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Members of the Professional Licensure Committee, my name is

Michael McGraw, and I am the Executive Director of the

Pennsylvania Association of Plumbing-Heating-Cooling

Contractors, PA PHCC. I am also a master plumber.

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to

provide you my testimony in support of H.B. 1357.

As you will hear today and from other written

testimonies submitted to this Committee, there are many

reasons, and they are all reasons which only make sense,

that this be legislation in the Commonwealth. First and

foremost reason, plumbing contractors should be required to

have a license to provide plumbing services to the

consumers of this Commonwealth is to protect the health,

safety, comfort, and environment of Pennsylvanians and the

millions of visitors each year who come to Pennsylvania

because of its history.

Safe drinking water and proper disposal of

sanitary waste cannot be provided by the average person. I

am sure that in your professions there are many variables

and extended education needed to hold the titles that you

have, and the average person would not know those

variables. Sure, some people decide to represent

themselves in the court of law, do their own taxes, work on

their own vehicles and cut their own hair, but that does

not make them lawyers, accountants, auto mechanics or

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beauticians. Why? Because in Pennsylvania you cannot

provide these services without having received a degree or

license that says you are qualified to provide them.

Plumbing is no different. The average person may

be able to repair certain plumbing problems, but ask that

same person how many fixture units can my house sewer

handle, what is the maximum temperature a water heater can

deliver hot water at my faucet before requiring a mixing

valve, what is the maximum distance for a trap arm before

you need a vent, and what is the difference between a vent

stack and a stack vent? Just as in your professions, they

would not know the answers because these people have not

been properly trained and educated on the safe installation

and operation of an entire plumbing system.

Plumbing installed incorrectly can injure,

sicken, and even kill people. The plumber’s motto, as you

just heard is "The plumber protects the health of the

Nation,” and we are very proud of that as professional

plumbing contractors.

Pennsylvania borders New York, Ohio, West

Virginia, Maryland, New Jersey, and Delaware. Only one of

these States do not require a plumbing license. Out-of­

State plumbing contractors cross the bridges and State

lines into Pennsylvania and are bidding on and doing work

in our State. They are taking jobs away from Pennsylvania

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contractors who do not have the same ability to cross the

same bridges and State lines to bid on and work in those

States because they will not recognize a Pennsylvania

plumbing contractor as a qualified and professional

contractor because they do not possess a State plumbing

license. It doesn’t seem fair, does it?

This is not a level playing field. With a State

plumbing license, we would have the ability to refuse out-

of-State contractors if that State did not reciprocate with

us. Don’t we want our contractors to be given the same

opportunity across State lines that Pennsylvania gives out-

of-State plumbing contractors in Pennsylvania?

This legislation, once enacted, would generate an

estimated $2 million every year in additional revenue to

the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. We are only asking for

an $85,000 appropriation which would pay itself back in the

first year of enforcement.

This legislation may be new to some of you, and

it is not so new to many of you sitting up there. This

legislation has been around the last five legislative

sessions, and that is 10 years. In those 10 years, the

plumbing industry has met with and sent many letters to

Senators and Representatives seeking support of statewide

licensure for plumbing contractors. We have met with many

special interest groups, and over those 10 years we have

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amended language, we went from a "practice act" to a "title

act," extended effective dates, and expanded the

grandfather clause.

I represent all open shop plumbing contractors.

As we do not agree with all labor policies and labor does

not agree with all our policies, but when there is

something that we both agree on which will benefit our

contractors, and more importantly, as I mentioned before,

protect you, your families, and the rest of the

Commonwealth, we come together and lobby together. I ask

that you would support this legislation for all the right

reasons, not because you are a Republican, a Democrat,

labor-friendly, not labor-friendly but based on the facts

presented before you here today.

Thank you for allowing me to present my

testimony.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you, Mr. McGraw.

Who next?

MR. KANE: I guess I’ll do it.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Would you please

state your name?

MR. KANE: Good morning. My name is John Kane,

Business Manager of Plumbers Local 690, City of

Philadelphia and the surrounding area.

Good morning, Madam Chair --

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MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Good morning.

MR. KANE: -- Chairman Readshaw, and the Members

of the Professional Licensure Committee.

I’ll try to be as brief as I possibly can because

I do understand it is petition time and it’s a hectic time

of the year for you.

It gives me great pleasure to be here today to

discuss the importance of the plumbing license bill. And

let me stress the word "our." In all my years, I can’t

think of any industry coming together like our plumbing

industry. You have both union and open shop contractors

joining together and leaving our differences at the door

for two reasons: consumer safety and also our plumbing

industry’s future.

My plumbing career began in 1979. I always

wanted to be a plumber because my grandfather was a plumber

and he was killed in a ditch in 1958 before I was even

born. As a registered apprentice plumber with the City of

Philadelphia, in 1983, after serving four years as an

apprentice, I passed the Philadelphia journeyman’s test. I

was proficient in the trade and graduated to the status of

journeyman plumber. In 1991, I continued my education to

become a master plumber by passing a detailed pipe sizing

diagram and fixture unit value chart. This may sound Latin

to you, but in our industry, when you achieve this title,

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you also earn respect.

I continue to be a registered master plumber in

the City of Philadelphia, #4190. I am also certified in

backflow, brazing, Gastite, process safety management,

foreman training, first aid CPR, and rigging and signaling

just to name a few. I just recently just got my OSHA 10.

Why do I tell you all of this? Because it’s

important for you to understand that I chose to make this

my career and to become the best plumber I can be just like

thousands of others throughout this Commonwealth. When you

look across this table, we represent thousands of plumbers

in this great State. We represent union and open shop

contractors. We came together to put our differences to

the side and realized as plumbers it is our job to protect

the health of the Nation.

Our concerns happen to be for the people you

represent, your constituents, the consumer. It is alarming

what can take place when an unlicensed or unqualified

individual is hired. I am here today warning our elected

officials if we continue to go down this road of allowing

unlicensed plumbers to perform plumbing, we will continue

to have more cases of Legionnaires’ disease over the next

few years. Just this past summer, there was a

Legionnaires’ case at West Chester University where my

daughter attends.

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Erin Brockovich, the legendary consumer advocate,

recently reported Pennsylvania has 16 cities complaining

about its drinking water. And we recently just saw what

took place in Flint, Michigan.

Speaking of Flint, Michigan, I would like to make

you aware of the fact that 18 cities in Pennsylvania

reported higher levels of lead exposure than Flint. And

let me say that again, and I want to be perfectly clear

with this, 18 cities in Pennsylvania reported higher levels

of lead exposure than Flint. Flint, Michigan’s level of

lead was 3.21 milligrams per decaliter. The 18 cities are

Allentown, 23.1; Altoona, 20.4; Scranton, 19.4; Johnstown,

18.3; Reading, 16.1; Easton, 15.8; Bethlehem, 14.3;

Chester, 13.7; Wilkes-Barre, 13.2; Lebanon, 12.9; York,

12.4; Harrisburg, 12.6; Erie, 12.1; Williamsport, 12.0;

Norristown, 11.8; Lancaster, 11; Philadelphia, 10.7; and

Pittsburgh, 8.3. I’d like to remind you Flint, Michigan,

was 3.21 micrograms per decaliter.

I’d also like to let you know that I congratulate

the 400 brothers and sisters of the plumbing industry from

Lansing, Michigan, who donated their time to change our

faucets and water filters to the residents of Flint,

Michigan.

I also want to let you know that over the past

years our colleagues here have worked with other trades and

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the labors in particular in Philadelphia to make sure that

they were comfortable what we have, and they are.

In closing, I congratulate my colleagues for all

their hard work. I would ask our elected officials to

understand and recognize our plumbing industry. Whether

it’s union, whether it’s open shop, the Commonwealth of

Pennsylvania is in desperate need of a statewide plumbing

license.

That being said, I thank you for allowing me to

testify today. Respectfully, I request your support for

House Bill 1357. Thank you.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you, Mr. Kane.

And, Mr. McGraw, I agree with you. This is not a

partisan issue, not a Democrat, not a Republican. That’s

why we’re having this hearing today and we have a whole

mixture here of Democrats and Republican who are very

concerned about drinking water in their areas. And

listening to what testimony you just gave, I don’t know,

should we be drinking water or -­

MR. KANE: Look what I’m drinking.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Bottle of water?

MR. KANE: That’s right.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: But I would like to

announce also the presence of Representative Keith

Gillespie, who just entered; and the prime sponsor, Jim

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Christiana, who made it all the way in from Beaver County

through the snow. Now, Jim, if you like, you can give your

opening remarks, and then we’ll continue.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Well, I think the

best advocates for this bill are those sitting at the

table, so I won’t stand in the way of their testimony for

very long. But I want to thank you, Madam Chair, for

having this hearing and being so accommodating and having

such an extensive list of testifiers.

I’d also like to thank Chairman Readshaw for his

continual work with your office and Members on both sides

for having these hearings and making sure that the

Committee is well versed on the issue. And I do think this

Committee is a great example -- under your leadership,

Madam Chair and Chairman Readshaw’s leadership, this

Committee is a great example of bipartisanship time and

time again because a lot of these issues almost unanimously

get resolved on a bipartisan basis, and that’s a testament

to you and the minority Chairman as well. So thank you,

and I look forward to the testimony. And gentlemen, thank

you for being here.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you,

Representative.

Okay. Who’s next?

MR. CUMMINS: Madam Chair, my name is John

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Cummins. I’m a plumber over in Allegheny County. Chairman

Readshaw, Members of the Professional Licensure Committee,

thank you for hearing our testimony today.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: And can you speak into

the mike? Is it on?

MR. CUMMINS: Yes.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Yes. Okay. Don’t be

bashful -­

MR. CUMMINS: I won’t be.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: — just right there.

MR. CUMMINS: Not my strong suit.

I’m here today as a plumber from Allegheny

County. My name is John Cummins. I own J.W. Cummins

Plumbing. I’m located in Freedom, Pennsylvania, which is

in Beaver County. I have owned and operated my business

for 25 years.

I am also the President of AMPAC, which is the

Associated Master Plumber of Allegheny County. AMPAC

operates a plumbing school, which currently enrolls 230

apprentices in our apprenticeship program. This

apprenticeship is a four-year program, and the students are

required to obtain 576 passing school hours in conjunction

with 8,000 working hours to be eligible for the Allegheny

County Journeyman plumber’s exam. I also hold a chair on

the Allegheny Plumbing Advisory Board as one of two of the

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master plumbers of record. I can sit here and speak for

over 2,000 plumbers in Allegheny County and journeymen.

I have come here today as a concerned business

owner and a resident of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania in

seeking support in the passing of House Bill 1357.

In Allegheny County, I possess a master plumber’s

license. I also have certifications in ASSE backflow

prevention, DOT gas line installation, NASSCO sewer line

inspection. All of these certifications are required to

perform work in the community in which I service. However,

there is no State plumbing license or requirements outside

of a handful of communities at this time to protect the

consumers in the State of Pennsylvania.

Having no regulations requiring education and

certified plumbers endangers the Commonwealth and the

residents of Pennsylvania as a whole. Our responsibilities

as certified plumbers are to provide safe drinking water to

all consumers, as well as to protect the environment, to

dispose of waste in a safe and ethical manner. The mantra

of the plumbing trade, as you’ve heard many times here is

"plumbers protecting the health of our Nation."

Under this proposed legislation, the revenue that

would be generated will financially influx into the

Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and the additional income can

supplement other government programs. The neighboring

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States require mandatory State licenses with continuing

education annually to conduct plumbing in their

communities. For example, Ohio plumbers whom have met

their State requirements can come into the majority of the

communities in the Commonwealth and perform work.

However, I am not permitted to go into another

State due to the lack of a nonexistent State licensing in

Pennsylvania unless I have taken that State’s certification

and earned their license. I am unable to reciprocate with

the surrounding States. It is very difficult to compete in

today’s ever-tightening job market with States that already

have this type of legislation as a requirement to perform

plumbing in their State.

It would level the playing field if the State of

Pennsylvania if we implemented a State license. The

protection to the residents of the Commonwealth by having a

State license will ensure that proper trained and education

and educated individuals will be installing and maintaining

the plumbing systems in our State.

I support the grandfather clause being

implemented to ensure that the current plumbers in our

State are able to continue as they have in the past, and

give them the opportunity to acquire the continuing

education that will be needed to meet the requirements of

the State licensing.

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In closing, I’m here today asking for your

support in the passing of House Bill 1357. This bill will

protect the communities in the Commonwealth, as well as

leveling the field for business owners like myself, and

ensure the safety of the environment. Thank you.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Next?

MR. O ’TOOLE: Madam Chair Harhart, Chairman

Readshaw, and Members of the Professional Licensure

Committee, I want to thank you for letting me do my

testimony today.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: And your name is?

MR. O ’TOOLE: My name is Martin O ’Toole, and I am

the Business Manager of Plumbers Local Union 27 in

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, for the last four years and a

member for over 30 years. Before that I served four years

in the United States Air Force as a plumber. I currently

sit on the Allegheny County Health Department Advisory

Board as Chairman.

I and many of my members hold certifications in

medical gas installation, brazing, ICRA, backflow

prevention installation and testing, DOT gas service

installation, plastic fusion and many more. Plumbers Local

#27 has approximately 1,200 Allegheny County licensed

active and retired plumbers.

Both union and non-union’s interests have been

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working on this bill for 10-plus years so that our industry

stays strong. We are one of six States in the country that

does not have a State licensing for plumbers who protect

the health of the Nation. But on the other hand, we make

sure your barber or hairstylist are licensed. To me that

is ridiculous. When a mistake is made in a plumbing

application, it could lead to sickness and death. When a

barber makes a mistake, you walk around for about a week

with a bad haircut.

This bill would protect the residents of the

Commonwealth and ensure that if they have a problem in

their plumbing systems, they will get a trained, licensed

plumber who has completed an apprenticeship and has moved

onto journeymen status, not some handyman who, last week,

was cutting hair.

Economically, this bill will help the

Commonwealth, contractors, consumers, and end users. It

will also create equality for Pennsylvania plumbers.

Pennsylvania boarders six States, of which five have State

licensing for plumbers. This allows bordering States to

come into Pennsylvania and compete for work but prohibits

Pennsylvania plumbers from working in their State, which

requires a State license. We need to fix this issue so we

can be competitive and keep costs down for the consumer and

the end users in Pennsylvania.

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We have many people that we’ve sat and talked

with, myself and with the Laborers in Pennsylvania and

western Pennsylvania, sat down before we brought this bill

to you to work with the Laborers in that because they had a

little bit of a problem with it. I gave them the bill, my

counterpart in western Pennsylvania, took it to his legal,

went over it, sent it back, and told me they are fine with

this bill and to go ahead and move it for us.

So in closing, I am asking for your support in

passing House Bill 1357. To me this is a no-brainer

because it’s better protection for the residents of the

Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And like I said before, the

plumbers do protect the health of the Nation. Thank you

very much.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.

MR. KANE: That is one lousy haircut you got,

though.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Yes, you know, being a

barber or a hairdresser, you get a bad haircut, they better

run, you know? They could be in danger.

Next is last but not least, Mr. Glasson.

MR. GLASSON: Good morning, Madam Chair. Thank

you for having us here today. And, Committee Members,

thank you. We know you guys should be home taking care of

some business at home, but you stayed back today for this

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hearing, and we greatly appreciate it.

My name is Kevin Glasson, and I am the owner of

McIntyre Plumbing, Ben Franklin Plumbing, the Punctual

Plumber, and One-Hour Heating and Air-Conditioning. I am

also a licensed master plumber in Bucks County. I passed

my master plumber’s exam in 1985 in Bucks County. I also

hold a master plumber’s license in the City of

Philadelphia, and I am a State of New Jersey-licensed

master plumber.

Also, I hold a State Director position for the

Bucks County area for the Pennsylvania PHCC, and I am a

member of the Associated Building Contractors, the ABC.

Also part of my community service, I have been involved in

the volunteer fire department for over 25 years. It has

been in our family. I’m one of five brothers and sisters

that have been down this road in the fire department. I

sit on the Board of Trustees. I’ve been there for 18

years. I have been the Chairman for the last three years.

Madam Chair, if it’s okay with you, with my

testimony, you know, if I sit here and try to read it, I’m

going to probably bungle it up a little bit. So if I

deviate, is it okay?

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Oh, absolutely.

MR. GLASSON: All right. I’d rather just talk

from my heart. I kind of know what’s here on paper so --

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MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: No, that’s fine.

MR. GLASSON: -- if you’re okay with that.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Absolutely.

MR. GLASSON: I just want to give you a little

bit of a background on myself. I come from 12 brothers and

sisters. We’ve had a tough time. I lost my father when I

was seven years old. My mother came down with multiple

sclerosis when she delivered our last sibling, and so times

were tough for us.

One of the things when I got into high school, my

brothers, they were all tradesmen. They all went to the

tech school in Bucks County. So I would like to follow in

their shoes. So back in the day, some of you guys, maybe

the younger guys may not know this, but back in the day we

used to go to home school for two weeks and then we go to a

trade school for two weeks. I wanted to take up a trade

but I thought I can go to the tech school because I can get

out of home school for two weeks and maybe that’s not as

bad as being in the home school. My home school was Bishop

Egan. Our trade school in Bucks County was the Bucks

County Tech School.

So when you’re a freshman in high school, you can

apply to the trade school and pick two choices in the

school. Back then, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. I

just knew I didn’t want to stay in home school every day,

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so I picked carpentry and small engine repair. So end of

freshman year I applied and, unfortunately, towards the end

of freshman year they send out letters if you have been

accepted or not. I received a denial letter, and I was a

little upset. I really wanted to go to the trade school.

As I said earlier, my brothers all were in the trade,

different trades.

So actually one day I was a little upset. I got

on my bike. I was off from Bishop Egan High School. I was

15 years old and I pedaled my way up to the tech school and

I went in and I asked if I could see an administrator. And

they put me in a room and I waited there. Two gentlemen

came in, Mr. Art James and Mike Schmeg. They were the two

administrators at the time at Bucks County Tech School.

So I told them that I was a little upset that,

you know, I didn’t get into the tech school and I wanted to

know if there was any other availability, other shops. And

they did. They told me that there was a few. The first

couple shops really weren’t my liking. One was baking, one

was horticulture, and one was cosmetology, and I really

didn’t see myself there. One of the last ones they said

was heating and ventilating. I said, you know, I think I

would be interested in that. At that time my brother Joe

actually was in that shop.

So Mr. James and Mr. Schmeg said, hey, you took

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the guts to come up here and question us. Would you like

to sit in the class? I said, you know, if you wouldn’t

mind, I sure would like it. So that day they took me down.

I sat in the class and I actually enjoyed it. I said, you

know, this is something I would like to take up.

I met the instructor that day, Bill Thistle. So

I went back to the office and I was able to go. They gave

me my letter. Sophomore year, instead of just being in

home school, we had two weeks of home school, two weeks of

tech school. I started my journey there in tech school.

And my instructor that day when we started, Mr. Thistle -­

you never know what life brings you. You never know what

person is going to touch your life. That gentleman that

day when I started, he took me under his wing for whatever

reason, maybe because my brother Joe -- currently, my

brother Joe is in the room with us today.

We just hit it off and this Mr. Thistle took very

good care of me. He knew that I came from a family that we

lost our father and there was 12 brothers and sisters. So

towards the end of my sophomore year, typically, they try

to place some of our students in co-op programs.

Typically, being a sophomore, you don’t normally get

picked. You have to be a junior or a senior. I

demonstrated a skill that I really liked this trade, and

Mr. Thistle went out of his way to get me a position with a

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company in co-op.

So at that point the gentleman that gave me my

first opportunity as a plumbing apprentice, I seen him, he

walked through the door about an hour ago, John McHale.

Mr. McHale was good friends with Mr. Thistle at the time

and that was my first real experience in plumbing. Since

then, I haven’t looked back. I served my apprenticeship, I

did my three years at tech school.

I also enrolled myself into the night program my

senior year in high school I finagled my way. I think back

then it was illegal if you were still in high school you

couldn’t go to night school but I got my way into night

school. I was a senior in high school. I went to school

at night. After that, I worked and I went to the night

school program. I served my four years of apprenticeship

in the night program. I took my journeyman’s test. I had

my journeyman’s license. When I was in the school in I

believe it was my fourth year, my instructor John McIntyre,

he was a master plumber in Bucks County probably at that

point for about 40 years, he was having some health issues.

It became a joke in the fourth year apprentice, hey, John’s

going to sell his business; is anybody interested in buying

it? I said, yes, I’ll buy it. I live at home. I have a

couple dollars saved up. It was a joke.

Well, as time went on, it became real. I bought

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my first company in 1983, and I had to serve another year

of my journeyman’s until I was able to take my master

plumber’s license. I took that, I was successful, I

passed. I made my last payment to John at that time, and I

owned the company.

From there, we moved on. Since I’ve been in the

trade since then I have purchased seven other plumbing

companies since I’ve got into this industry. As companies

came along, small companies that wanted to get out, we -­

myself -- when I say we, our company is a team, so when I

reference "we," it’s everybody in our company. We’ve taken

over seven companies and we’ve put them all together.

We’ve grown from 1983 when I first bought our first company

to today we have over 23 employees and a couple part-time

employees.

You’ve heard some testimony from my colleagues

here on some of the technical aspects, vent stacks, stack

vents, different things. Mr. Kane touched on the water

quality. We’ve talked on the economics of the bills, and I

would like to just dive into a little bit of the meat and

the potatoes. This comes down to the consumer. As I said

earlier, I hold my New Jersey State license. I took my

test in I think it was 1986 so -- I thought I was the young

guy on this board here, but they made me go last for

whatever reason.

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Speaking on the State of New Jersey license,

they’ve had that license since 1968, and basically it

protects the consumer, the constituents for you guys. We

can sit here and talk technical, but at the end of the day

there’s a lot of bad contractors out there. There’s a lot

of bad contractors out there. There’s a lot of people

going around saying that they’re plumbers and they really

are not.

Anybody can get a business card, put whatever

they want in the State of Pennsylvania. Some of my good

friends over in New Jersey, they call this the wild, wild

West. They can come over here, they can do electrical,

they can do plumbing, they can do whatever they want. But

in our bordering State New Jersey, you can’t. You have to

be a State-licensed electrician, you have to be a licensed

plumber, and just recently in the last year, you have to be

HVAC.

Over here, we need to make a serious change.

There are too many consumers today getting burned by bad

contractors. With this license, this would stop it. This

would give a layer of protection to the consumer, the

homeowner, the one that’s out there not knowing who the

legitimate contractors are.

If and when this bill is passed, you would be

doing a great service for your constituents. We’re not

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looking for this bill for the plumbing industry to be a

protected specialty. You know, this is not about us. This

is about the consumer.

I have a couple real case stories of the

consumers that I would like to touch on.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. But we are on a

schedule.

MR. GLASSON: Madam Chair, no problem. I

apologize. If I could just get through a couple quick -­

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay.

MR. GLASSON: -- real-life stories -­

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: And I know the panel

wants to ask questions, too, so thank you.

MR. GLASSON: Just recently, we received a call

in our office from a senior. She stated that she had no

hot water. She just had a unit installed, a gas water

heater by a contractor that she has not been able to get a

hold of. We dispatched one of our licensed plumbers to go

out. During his evaluation, he found that someone

installed a gas water heater in the basement of this lady’s

home, never connected the flue. Okay. This is a gas-fired

appliance, no chimney. Okay. Pretty much everybody kind

of knows carbon monoxide is a silent killer. This

contractor told the lady she needed to open her basement

window for the unit to operate properly, okay? She was

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complaining. She complained to our guys that she was

feeling ill. This was a prime example. This could have

been a fatal incident because a contractor put something

like this in and explained to her that she needed to leave

her basement window open. So these are the kind of real-

life stories that are out there.

Another real quick story, Madam Chair, another

homeowner had a broken sewer line under the house, okay?

The insurance company got involved. We have to come in and

jackhammer the area and dig up. They hired another

contractor that they thought was a licensed plumbing

contractor. He was not. The people had to move out of the

house for two days. The people came back, checked why the

job was being done. The next day they came back. The

house was robbed and there was hypodermic needles laying in

the living room, on the ditch, and they were gone. And

these are the kind of contractors that are out there.

With this bill, we will have a list of who the

licensed contractors are. There’s language in there to

protect the consumer and so forth moving along.

So, Madam Chair, with that, I hope you guys

understand this is just not about the plumbing trade. This

is about the consumer. We need to protect it. We’ve put a

lot of time and a lot of effort into training ourselves,

training our employees.

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So with that, I’d like to close. I thank you for

your time. I really ask for your support on this bill

moving it forward.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.

The panel would like to ask questions, so we will

start with Representative Kortz.

REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you, Madam Chair,

and thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony.

Mr. O ’Toole, I have a question for you, sir. In

your testimony I saw that you had mentioned that yourself

and many of your members hold certifications in the medical

gas installation and DOT gas service installation. That

sounds pretty serious. You’re talking about gas. Could

you explain a little bit of that, just what it would take

to get that certification and how serious that is?

MR. O ’TOOLE: Well, especially the medical gas is

very serious because that’s all in hospitals where you’re

working in a hospital. You’re dealing with all different

kind of gases from your oxygen, your medical air, your

nitrous oxide. So you have to know how to install it, and

there are so many steps to it. We teach our apprentices

over a six-month course on just getting medical gas

certifications and installation because you could kill

somebody. If you cross the gases in a hospital, you’ll

definitely kill somebody.

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Now, on the DOT side, that’s a gas coming into

your house, and gas that is coming from the street into the

house to where you need to be certified to be able to work

with the gas companies around the area. They just don’t

let anybody jump on them and put the gas lines in. That’s

what the DOT is.

REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay. And if I may follow

up, Madam Chair, if this bill would pass for licensing and

you would be allowed to reciprocate and go into some of the

other States, this sounds like a very specialty field.

This is like the next higher level of plumbing if you will.

You would be able to participate in the hospitals in West

Virginia per se and -­

MR. O ’TOOLE: As long as you have medical gas

certifications -­

REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Yes.

MR. O ’TOOLE: -- yes. You can go ahead, and they

are doing it. Yes, you do well work in hospitals.

REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay. Thank you, sir.

And I appreciate it. And I want to thank the prime sponsor

of the bill. It’s an excellent bill and I will be

supporting this. Madam Chair, thank you.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Since you all

want to ask questions, do you just want to come right

around? Okay.

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REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: Thank you, Madam Chair.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: That’s Representative

Curt Sonney.

REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: You know, first of all,

several of the testifiers, you brought up the water

quality, Flint, Michigan, and then you read a pretty

extensive list of Pennsylvania cities. How many of those

Pennsylvania cities do you know that today require you to

have a license with that municipality? Do you know?

He’s mentioned Philadelphia. I know the City of

Erie requires you to be licensed with the City of Erie.

I’m going to assume that most everyone on that list

requires the plumbers to be licensed within those cities or

municipalities, and so I guess it just kind of rubbed me

the wrong way that part of the testimony where you try to

allude that if you are licensed that these kind of things

can’t happen, and I can almost guarantee that plumbers in

Flint, Michigan, have to be licensed, and that didn’t stop

that from happening either. That is way above your control

to be able to prevent those things. And, quite frankly,

most of that is people doing stupid things.

I understand where you’re coming from with some

of this. I still have a little bit of a difficulty

understanding how, if you are licensed, that in any way you

can prevent that person from claiming to be a plumber and

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doing a lousy job and simply going to another neighbor or

another community and doing it again. These kind of things

have always existed because there’s no real way to enforce

that other than some authority tracking them down if they

can find them. And so do you know how many municipalities

that are in this Commonwealth require you to be licensed

today?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: We feel about a third.

REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: And it’s mostly the

cities, I would assume?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: The larger municipalities,

correct.

MR. MCGRAW: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: Yes. Yes. And so the

vast majority of the population has always been covered by

those municipalities, okay, we can say putting in

protections for their citizens, correct, that require

plumbers to be licensed.

And a lot of your testimony, talking about the

technical aspect of plumbing, and I absolutely agree, it

can be very, very technical. On the other side of the coin

in a residential setting, it’s -- quite frankly, on a

single residential home it is not that technical. When you

get into multiple larger homes, depending on where they’re

at, depending on the conditions, but I mean it becomes

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very, very technical. It does. And there’s no doubt that

you want somebody that is experienced and knowledgeable to

be able to perform that work.

Does not the Uniform Construction Code block a

lot of those unqualified people from doing shoddy work?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: No.

REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: So the Uniform

Construction Code today doesn’t account for any kind of

inspections on plumbing, and it doesn’t require that those

plumbing connections in the plumbing work is done in a

proper manner?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: It’s up to the individual

borough or township to adopt that rule for inspections.

And, Representative, if I may, the lead

contamination that Mr. Kane commented on is only one

component of levels of contamination that could be in

drinking water systems, especially in residential homes.

If plumbing systems installations are not done correctly in

the manner of coordinating the lines, when even a single

residential home is built, it could lead to bacterial

contamination within the drinking water system that will

remain there and not go away. That can remain there for

years and years and years unless those lines are properly

chlorinated during the installation process.

And I personally in all my experience doing

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installations over the years, I have never had one

inspector asked to see a report on the quality of the

drinking water in a residential home. That’s where you

have to fall back to the professional plumber that knows to

chlorinate that system. If somebody just wants to take a

step ahead and just solder his last joint, turn the water

on in that house and leave, it exposes the people in that

house to bacterial contamination.

REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: Yes.

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: So it’s not only in high-rises

and multifamily dwellings and commercial establishments.

It does become very technical even in single-family homes

to protect the health and safety of everyone.

REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: But again, you’re talking

about in new construction. If you can -­

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: I’m talking about anything.

REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: When you come in and do a

repair, I think that -- and believe me, I understand

exactly what you’re talking about, I do. What happens when

the city water system does a repair? Sometimes, they’ll

notify the people in the area, correct, to -­

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Correct.

REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: — boil your water, don’t

drink the water because the chlorine within the system will

clean it out, but you have to give it time, right?

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MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: And then mains are usually

flushed before it reaches the residents’ homes. The reason

that alert is often put out is just as another layer of

protection.

REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: I don’t want to stop and

I don’t want to take all the time here either discussing

these different aspects. I guess the end result for me,

today, is that I still don’t personally see where the need

is. And I say that because I’ve never heard of in my area

-- I’ve never had people complaining to me about getting

bad work, having bad problems with water, everything that

you’ve described. I’ve never had any of those instances

brought to me.

And quite frankly, I was a general contractor for

10 years so I do understand this quite extensively. And

within those 10 years I didn’t really hear of any of those

problems. Now, granted, I don’t walk in your shoes, okay?

So I can absolutely understand how you would hear of those

problems and I wouldn’t.

So that’s all I have to say at this point in

time, but thank you, Madam Chair.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you,

Representative Sonney.

Representative Brown?

REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Thank you, Madam Chair.

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And just to tag onto what Representative Sonney

was talking about a little bit, you mentioned -- thank you,

first of all, for all of your testimony. It’s very helpful

-- the mention of the lack of reciprocal agreement between

the States. Obviously, my district is on the border of

both New York and New Jersey in the Pocono region, so we

have a lot of influx in and out, a lot of commuters, a lot

of people doing business among those different States. So

it was mentioned that in even the prior question the

attractiveness to our municipalities of a licensed plumber,

one-third I think you said.

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Close to one-third.

REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Close to one-third. So do

you find that there is definitely a lean more towards the

licensed plumber? I mean, is it definitely taking away

business? Is it something that our New Jersey licensees

are coming in and taking significant business from us?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Representative —

REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: And then New York, too.

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: -- significant business on a

daily basis. I mean, if time permitted, we have many, many

people in the plumbing industry here in the audience today.

We’ve had 70-plus pieces of written testimony submitted

today in support of this bill, and I believe if we had the

time to read them, mostly everyone would have the

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reciprocity component and contractors coming in from the

bordering States taking our work. I would think almost

every one of those 70-plus written testimonies would have

that in there.

REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Okay. That’s something

that I think that I’ll be looking at very strongly, but

again, I still need some more information on that as well.

So thank you very much.

MR. GLASSON: May I have one second?

When we go over to New Jersey, they set up patrol

and they check trucks going over into New Jersey. So if an

unlicensed contractor from PA is going over to Jersey, he’s

getting caught. Guys from New Jersey coming over to PA,

it’s free game. I think out of this panel I’m the only one

that holds a New Jersey State license. Trust me, they

enforce the rule over there, very, very tight.

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: I believe Mr. McGraw can

elaborate if time permits that one of his members actually

had their truck confiscated at the bridge by the New Jersey

people.

MR. MCGRAW: And he had to pay a $10,000

privilege tax fee to them in order to get his truck back,

$10,000 he was fined. They were waiting on the other side

of the bridge.

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: But again, those contractors

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come into Pennsylvania every day.

REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Yes. And I’m amazed by

that type of enforcement because that’s difficult to do

just in general everyday life. But if I can get some more

information on that from any of you, I’d appreciate that.

Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Excuse me. I’m also with

the Jersey State police department, Pennsylvania State, and

Philadelphia. I belong to the New Jersey State Master

Plumbers Association, and we are actively prosecuting any

contractors in the plumbing industry that do not have a New

Jersey State plumbers’ license. You don’t have one in

Pennsylvania. I have my RCC, my ICC. Now, I have my New

Jersey State. My Philadelphia is generally to do

[inaudible], but New Jersey is actively prosecuting as we

speak.

George Burrell, who’s the plumbing inspector in

Camden, is the head of that region for our committee.

We’ll be meeting tonight, and actually, they’re going to

hear what I’m going to have to say about our meeting here

today, how it went.

But it seems impossible that you wouldn't have to

have a State license to engage and everything. Plumbing

isn’t just about water lines and drain lines. To have

somebody come in that’s not licensed is really a serious

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[inaudible]. I’m more [inaudible] about the money

[inaudible]. If you’re honest, you’re [inaudible] for

business. There’s no problem there. Competition is not

going to hurt it. But at least give us a shot, permit us

for the job that everybody else can do that we can’t. A

Jersey plumber can come into Pennsylvania and can do work

under their license, but you can’t take that license of

yours and get into Jersey if you want.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Thank you. Are there

different requirements in different municipalities in order

to get a license?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Different insurances

and -­

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Insurances basically stay

consistent. Townships ask for minimum requirements. It’s

usually around $50,000 worth of general liability, which

mimics the State Attorney General’s registration.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: But there is not

necessarily a consistency -­

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: No.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: — on what it takes to

get a license in those municipalities?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: No, no consistency.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: And the companies that

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you represent in a sense -- I know you represent the

members, the men and women that work for these companies.

But how many municipalities could they be working in at one

time?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Well, I can share with you my

former company Krzyzanowski Plumbing that my son and my

wife currently run. Just to work in the Philadelphia and

five-county area, they spend on average of $6,000 a year in

individual licensing, and that is just to work in the

Philadelphia five-county area. If you expand that into the

outer parts of Bucks and Montgomery County, that could be

upwards of $10,000 just to work within a little bubble.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: And again, with all

different requirements?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: With all different

requirements.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Okay. So I’m licensed

as a real estate broker in Pennsylvania. I have one

license. It works for all of Pennsylvania. It doesn’t

matter if I’m in Pittsburgh, Delaware County, Philadelphia,

it doesn’t matter. If I do something wrong, I lose my

license to practice anywhere in the State. I can’t just

pick up and go somewhere else in the State.

What it sounds like to me, and just to make sure

I’m clear on this, they mess up here in, take my hometown

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Upper Darby, they could pick up and go to Bucks County and

really have no issue, just get a license in one of the

municipalities there and just go?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: They could go right next door

to Lower Merion, Upper Merion, and secure a license and a

permit and work in that jurisdiction.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Okay. All right.

That’s concerning.

From everything I hear so far, and I’ll listen to

both sides, of course, but I think we've been waiting way

too long for something like this. And I understand people

do not want to do licensure. We keep adding licenses, I

hear. It's not a good thing. But this sounds to me -- and

it is people's lives. It is. Now, you've got me thinking

because I run the sink in my bathroom and it's foggy, I run

the sink in my kitchen and it's clear, and so obviously

today now I'm thinking there's something wrong. And did I

have the wrong plumber doing something?

So from everything I can see, I'm going to

support this bill. I thank the maker of the bill for

getting it back on the table and the Chairwoman for

bringing this hearing up front here, and hopefully, we can

get moving on this right away.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you,

Representative Santora.

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I do want to say we do have everybody’s testimony

that they submitted, but we couldn’t get them into the

folders because there were so many of them. But we do have

them. Angie, are they in a box? So if anybody is

interested -- no, there’s more -- anybody interested, they

are there and you may help yourself, okay? Thank you.

Representative Tina Davis.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Thank you for your

testimony.

And Representative Santora asked the question

about the municipalities. I do have a question regarding

that. If I wanted to go to a township, do I have to show

them -- if I’m a handyman, do I get a regular -- what would

I get? Yes, just say it.

MR. MCGRAW: In relation to what you’re asking, a

handyman, as long as he is registered with Pennsylvania

with the Home Consumer Protection Act, he has $50,000 worth

of insurance, and he listed that he does plumbing,

electrical, carpentry, everything even though he never

learned all those trades but that’s what he claims he does,

they will issue him his permit.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Okay. So that’s scary.

MR. MCGRAW: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Especially for seniors.

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: It’s a very dangerous practice

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that most of the townships and municipalities are doing.

We as a plumbing industry have a committee that have been

actively visiting as many townships and municipalities as

we possibly can to educate them that the Home Consumer

Protection registration is simply that. It is not a trade-

specific license that proves proficiency.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Okay. I’ll be quick.

Does the Department Of Labor and Industry support

this bill in Pennsylvania?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Yes.

MR. MCGRAW: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Yes?

MR. MCGRAW: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: You met with them?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: As far as we know, yes. We

met several sessions ago. We haven’t met with the current

Secretary of Labor.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Okay. I’d like to see

their support.

The last thing I wanted to ask was we have a

summary where -- and we all have kids in our neighborhood

that did things in the past, and in the bill it says you

can’t be convicted of a felony unless it lapsed. There’s

three different things: Five years have elapsed from the

date of conviction, he’s demonstrated to the board -- could

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you just go over that? If someone is in rehab and they’ve

seen a year or two of sobriety, they wouldn’t be able to

get a license?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: I believe — see, that was

inserted -­

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: In this bill?

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: That was inserted in there at

the recommendation of the State of Pennsylvania and the

Commonwealth Department of Labor and Industry. I believe

that it goes to what level of the crime is. And I’m not an

attorney obviously, but there is felony first, second

class. There’s many degrees of crimes. Now, what we are

concerned with is, as Mr. Glasson said, someone like went

into -- and it was in your area, too, Representative

Davis -­

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Of course it was.

MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: -- someone went in and -­

someone that could expose the public to dangers. If

someone is convicted of larceny or a crime against a

consumer, I believe the State Board would certainly frown

on licensing that person.

Now, if it was a substance abuse issue, I believe

that that State Board would take that under careful

consideration because they cannot discriminate -- State

Board or no licensing board can discriminate against

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someone that would have a substance addiction as opposed to

a crime against a consumer.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Okay. Thank you. And I

support the bill.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Chairman Readshaw.

DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN READSHAW: Thank you, Madam

Chair. Just two brief comments.

The first comment directed to -- it’s not a

question; it’s just a comment -- Mr. Kevin Glasson. And I

don’t know whether this is significant or not, but I

believe you made a right decision in being a plumber

because I cannot even picture you as being a cosmetologist.

These hearings are a learning experience not only

for us but for those in attendance, and I just want to

point out one item, and I’m going to refer to Walter’s

testimony even though so many of you emphasized it and used

it in your testimony. On page 3, paragraph 4, when you

would explain Pennsylvania as one of only six States in the

country that currently does not have a statewide license

for plumbers, and you go on from there and then you state

the economic problems with not being able to go into other

States. I just want to point out, to me and I would hope

everyone here, that’s a very significant statement and

probably -- and I’ll speak for myself. I wasn’t aware of

that prior to this hearing. So thank you for stating that

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and restating that, and I thank you all for testifying.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Representative Millard.

REPRESENTATIVE MILLARD: Thank you, Madam Chair.

We call a plumber, sometimes we get the jack of

all trades and the master of none, and I think that you’ve

highlighted that today. And, Kevin, we share very similar

humble beginnings, so I do want to tell you that.

But I think it’s important for you as a

profession to let this Committee know -- and you touched on

it somewhat, but I’d like to see additional testifiers

maybe go a little bit more in detail -- that there’s

different types of pipes out there, there’s different types

of settings. What you’re highlighting is the safety and

health of incoming and outgoing at the same time. And

there’s different standards that have to be met, ANSI

standards, you can’t mix certain types of pipes together,

some are plastic pipes and different -- schedule 80,

schedule 40, schedule 120.

And in your educating your members, your

apprentices, I’m interested in knowing how long a time that

they have to be an apprentice before they become a

journeyman, before they become a master? So that’s my

question to you. Thank you.

MR. CUMMINS: Do you want to answer that?

MR. MCGRAW: You go ahead.

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MR. CUMMINS: In the Allegheny County program,

which I’m the President of, you’re required -- on the open

shop it is 576 school hours and 8,000 working hours before

you’re permitted to or you’re actually qualified to sit for

the journeyman’s exam. In Allegheny County, once you

attain your journeyman’s status, you must work under a

master plumber for two additional years before you’re

permitted to sit for the master’s test to open your own

shop is the standard operating procedure. In our class we

run through cutting pipe, threading pipe, soldering pipe,

sweating joints, pretty much all the fundamentals.

The simplest way I can describe being a plumber

is like you’re a doctor. Everyone has a general license,

but then you specialize. Most of the shops specialize

either commercial, industrial, service, maintenance,

repair, you know, large stuff. After you leave our school,

that’s where you go. You specialize in your trade, but we

make sure that you leave our school with the fundamentals

and a clear understanding of the trade.

REPRESENTATIVE MILLARD: Thank you. And I just

wanted to highlight to this Committee that this isn’t a

weekend venture here, that there’s a lot of time involved

here.

MR. MCGRAW: Right. And these programs -- our

program is the same in Delaware County, and they meet the

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Pennsylvania Department of Labor standards of

apprenticeship.

REPRESENTATIVE MILLARD: Thank you. Thank you,

Madam Chair.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.

Now, did you want to go last, Jim, because Jaret

had a question.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: [inaudible].

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Representative

Gibbons.

REPRESENTATIVE GIBBONS: All right. The question

real quick is just I know a couple of you mentioned about

-- I believe Mr. Kane and I think one other person

mentioned about with the Laborers having local support, but

I know I’ve seen stuff before coming out from the

International about having concerns. Could you talk about

that local support from the Laborers and kind of explain

that a little bit?

MR. KANE: I have no problem explaining that if

you’d like.

REPRESENTATIVE GIBBONS: And I don’t care who

does. I know it was mentioned by a couple people on the

panel.

MR. KANE: Going back a few years ago, there

seemed to be an issue with the local Laborers with us going

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over the bill. I sat down with Ryan Boyer, showed him the

bill, showed him what we were actually doing, showing him

how all the changes that we had made. He felt comfortable

at that time. Why the International is fighting us on this

is beyond me. So I know locally in the Philadelphia area

we’ve worked well with the Laborers over this bill, and

they felt confident enough that it was able to move forward

and they weren’t going to fight us on it.

MR. O ’TOOLE: I also sat down with Phil Ameris,

who runs the Laborers in Pittsburgh, western Pennsylvania,

and we gave him the bill and everything, and he went

through his legal and everything with it, came back, they

had a few suggestions with us. We brought it back to the

board, went over it, fixed it up a little bit for them,

sent it back to them. They read it. Phil had no problems

with this bill whatsoever. He told me he’s fine with it.

He did not understand either why both the east and west

were good with it and there was still a problem.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.

Representative Christiana.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Thank you, Madam

Chair.

Oftentimes, the goal I’ve seen while serving on

this committee, the goal of those that are attempting to

establish licensure is to prevent mistakes and bad actors

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within their professions from tarnishing the industry and

to establish a baseline of expectations for an industry.

And while I think my colleagues did say there's a

reluctance sometimes to establish new licensures for

certain professions, I will say that while there may be a

reluctance, I am adamantly against meaningless licensure.

And in my opinion, while some municipalities may have a

real "license" in their area, what we're attempting here is

a real licensure program that puts real expectations in

place not just for the consumer but for your profession.

That is what attracted me to introduce this bill.

And then on top of that the amount of compromise

that has taken place over the last 10 years is pretty

remarkable and how the industry has taken labor versus non­

labor and unions shop versus open shop, taken that debate

and completely thrown it out. I have to give you a

tremendous amount of respect for that.

You look no further than the bill in the makeup

of the board. The makeup of the board will be three

representing union shops and three representing nonunion

shops. And that's not a product of me; that's a product of

all of you working together over a number of years, and I

want to thank you for that.

I think it's extremely important, as you

mentioned from a consumer protection standpoint, that we

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act now for two reasons. One, I think the consumer without

a doubt understands and has a different level of

expectations when they call upon a plumber or they call

upon a licensed plumber. There’s no doubt I think that

changes expectations. And then when someone calls

themselves a licensed professional but it may not be as

meaningful as what we’re attempting to do here, I think

there’s a need to act right away. And somebody operating

in a pseudo-license by name only but not conducting

themselves in such a way I think is why we need to act

quickly.

This isn’t just we’d like to have this. This, in

my opinion, is we need to have this because of what Jamie

Santora was mentioning that different municipalities can

have different regulations and different expectations and

may not have any, and I think it is time that the State

step in.

And so in my opinion if folks are wanting to make

a better product, I’m more than happy to continue to find

ways to compromise and make this bill better, but inaction

in my opinion only protects the bad actors, it only stops

our folks from going into our surrounding States and

competing for business. Instead of being fined, let’s just

allow you to go in and compete and show the rest of the

States that we’ve got the best talent in the region. And

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like my colleague on the other side of the State, I want

you to be able to go into Ohio and other places, as well as

those that aren’t from Beaver County and want to go into

other States.

So I appreciate all of your testimony, I

appreciate the compromise, and most of all, I appreciate

the passion and dedication to act now and act meaningfully

because that I think is what really should drive this

conversation. This isn’t so much I want but a need because

of the consumer protection. So thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the latitude.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.

Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your

presentations. Believe me, I’ve learned a lot. So, I

mean, if we have any questions, we know how to contact you

I hope, and naturally, you definitely know where we’re

located.

But since all the Committee is not here, I would

also recommend that you may talk to some of the Members,

both sides, to see what support you have to move this bill

and whatever needs to be worked on and changed because I am

known not to run bills unless they’re absolutely solid.

Otherwise, I don’t feel it would be right to run it and

have it fail. So any work that needs to be done on that

and you have the numbers to come out of Committee, I’d like

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the feedback on that.

But thank you very much for your -­

MR. KANE: Thank you.

MR. O ’TOOLE: Thank you.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: — for your testimony.

Okay. Our next testifier is William Seilhamer. It’s

President of the ABCs, Cumberland Valley Chapter. That’s

the Association of Builders and Contractors. Bill?

MR. SEILHAMER: Good morning.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Good morning.

MR. SEILHAMER: And thank you for having me here

this morning.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Absolutely.

MR. SEILHAMER: Good morning, Chairman Harhart

and Chairman Readshaw and other Members of the House

Professional Licensure Committee. My name is Will

Seilhamer, and I am the President and Chief Executive

Officer of the Cumberland Valley chapter of the Associated

Builders and Contractors based out of Hagerstown, Maryland.

We have members throughout West Virginia, Maryland, and

Pennsylvania.

In addition to my current role with ABC, I

previously worked as a licensed plumber for more than 44

years, holding a master license in Maryland, West Virginia,

and Virginia. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with

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you today about House Bill 1357.

The Associated Builders and Contractors is a

national construction industry trade association

representing nearly 21,000 chapter members. Founded on the

merit shop philosophy, ABC and its 70 chapters help members

develop people, win work, and deliver that work safely,

ethically, profitably, and for the betterment of the

communities in which ABC and its members work.

ABC’s membership represents all specialties

within the U.S. construction industry and is comprised

primarily of firms that perform work in the industrial and

commercial sectors. Within Pennsylvania, ABC currently

represents roughly 1,500 member companies across five

chapter regions.

The issue of a State plumbing licensure structure

is one that is of particular interest to our members since

a large majority of them are either engaged in the plumbing

industry themselves or are general contractors who

routinely utilize the services of plumbing professionals.

Because of this strong connection to the trade and our

association’s commitment to excellence across the skilled

trades in general, I want to make it very clear that ABC is

open to and supportive of a responsible, equitable,

statewide licensing structure for the plumbing industry.

Not only would statewide licensing improve the protection

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of consumers by establishing a minimum standard for

industry practices, but it would expand the growth

potential for our skilled trades, who could potentially

operate under similar standards throughout the entirety of

northeastern United States.

First, there are a few issues with the bill that

we have some concern with and things that you may have

already talked before I was able to get into the hearing,

so I apologize if I’m repeating some previous concerns.

First, this bill would do nothing to ensure a

minimum standard for the work performed by professionals

who opt not to label themselves as licensed plumbing

contractors. With myriad alternatives to choose from, such

as home improvement contractor or general contractor,

plumbing professionals who specialize or perform solely in

plumbing work could easily skirt the standards set forth

for licensed plumbing contractors.

Additionally, a number of local governments

across Pennsylvania already have licensing structures in

place such as the City of Harrisburg, the City of

Lancaster, Allegheny County, and the City of Philadelphia.

Each licensing structure carries a different set of

requirements for the applicant, ranging from a nominal fee

all the way to a complex competency testing mechanism.

Under H.B. 1357, individual municipal structures

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would be mostly eliminated. However, local governments

would still be permitted to charge businesses and

professionals a fee on top of the fees that would already

be required from the Commonwealth. This, in effect, would

impose increased fees on an aging industry rather than

reducing the economic burden.

While it is systemic of the issues created by the

Pennsylvania Construction Code Act, H.B. 1357 would also

allow additional restrictions within the City of

Philadelphia and Allegheny County where plumbing services

are tied to customized standards for those municipalities.

Not only does this concern erode the nature of a statewide

licensing structure, but it also creates a sharp divide for

industry professionals who practice within those

municipalities. Plumbing professionals within those

municipalities face a far greater burden than professionals

in neighboring areas just a few miles away.

House Bill 1357 creates other economic burdens on

the industry statewide by requiring fees of unspecified

amounts on virtually any individual who performs plumbing

activities. While a licensing fee on established

professionals would be dedicated to enforcement efforts, it

is particularly troubling that the bill assesses a fee on

apprenticeship plumbers.

You have a written copy in front of you. I'm

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going to skip over a few of these paragraphs because I

don’t need to read everything for you that you have in

front of you.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: No, that’d be fine

because we are running over so -­

MR. SEILHAMER: Yes. One of the major benefits

for ABC members, particularly in border areas and

especially for my area; I cover southern Pennsylvania near

the Maryland border, and our eastern chapter covers down

through Delaware and parts of Maryland -- would like to

work in the State of Maryland, so this reciprocity

agreement would be essential for our members to ensure that

they can bid in other areas such as Maryland, coming up

here to perform work.

Some of the concerns are that Pennsylvania right

now would allow Maryland to come up here. Your standards

are not as strict as they are in Maryland. I know you’re

addressing some of these in the bill, which is fine, but

there are some issues that may require additional training

for you to be able to come into Maryland and work as a

plumber.

For one thing, our journeymen plumbers, when they

go to take the test, have to prequalify as a backflow

prevention specialist before they can sit for the test.

There’s no mention of that in here. So even though you

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have a journeyman card up here or a master’s license, you

would not be able to reciprocate to Maryland until you’ve

met those standards for backflow prevention, and that is an

essential part of the health care for any -- for

residential and commercial buildings today.

Other than that, the reciprocity agreement would

have to be worked out between the two States. I’m sure

your Department of Labor and so forth could do that, and I

think that would be a great benefit to both of us.

With that, we’re in favor of the bill with some

minor changes, and we look forward to working with you or

the Committee to specify any way we can help you,

especially in the bordering States.

So thank you for allowing me today, and if you

have any questions, I’ll try to answer them.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Representative

Santora.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: So you are in favor of

the bill overall; you just have some issues with it?

MR. SEILHAMER: Yes, sir. Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: That’s compromise?

MR. SEILHAMER: And I think they could be worked

out.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Because one of the

things I hear up here all the time is if you don’t

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compromise, you get nothing done. And I feel like what

I’ve heard is that this bill has taken a lot of compromise

over 10 years and has gotten to a point where multiple

groups support it, including members of your own

association.

And that’s why I’m just a little confused by it.

If we can improve anything, we can get to that first step,

this has been going on for so many years. We’ve got to get

to that first step, and those compromises -- we’re going to

have to take a look at it, but I’d like to -- I’ll read

your testimony in more depth and I’ll talk to the maker of

the bill and try to understand where you’re coming from.

But when I read the bill I think overall it’s a good

compromise bill.

And the reciprocity piece of it is one of my

biggest concerns. Now, I’m just -- and I know I’m just

going to go off here a little bit, but I am sick of

companies from other States coming in here and taking our

jobs. We need to make sure that our men and women are

working. That’s our number one responsibility. So union,

nonunion, labor-friendly, this is a good bill and we’ve got

to work together to get it done quickly.

So thank you for your testimony. I look forward

to reaching out to you and trying to figure out what it is

that would prevent you from fully considering support of

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this bill.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Representative

Christiana.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Yes. Thank you for

your testimony and taking time, just a couple follow-up

questions.

You had mentioned that there are -- you almost

sounded concerned that the bill didn’t go far enough as far

as the regulations, that we may need stricter regulations

in place to compete with Maryland. Is that correct? So

you think the bill should go further?

MR. SEILHAMER: Well, I’m not sure what the -­

some of your training programs may cover the backflow

prevention, and I’m sure they do in one way or another. I

know our local chapter teaches it. But it’s actually a

requirement in Maryland before you sit for the test that

you have that certification. So you may already have it in

some form. I know there’s training available for it so it

would just have to be added to the bill to be able to

reciprocate.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Then you sounded like

there was some reluctance to allow the biggest two cities

in the Commonwealth to put stricter regulations in place,

higher expectations because it actually -- in the bill it

says that Philadelphia and Pittsburgh basically, who

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provides or will provide plumbing service in either a

county of the first class or a county of the second class

shall further be subject to any licensure requirement of

the respective county. So if they have additional

expectations, they would have to meet that. And you don’t

feel that that’s reasonable considering the magnitude of

that population and their level of expertise that they do

have?

MR. SEILHAMER: I’ve never worked in the City of

Philadelphia or Pittsburgh so I’m not familiar with all the

specific regulations, but I understand that they are more

strict than they are out in the rest of the State.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Which you would think

is a good thing? I guess my question is you would support

-- it sounded like you supported going even further but

then were opposed to the two biggest municipalities then

from doing it. Go ahead.

MR. SEILHAMER: I’m not opposed. I would like to

learn a little more about it so I understand how the rest

of the State is going to work with those larger

municipalities that have their own regulations now. They

may be stricter than what you have in the bill today. I’m

not sure.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: And regardless, I

think even if they are, I think what we’re attempting to do

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here is to set a baseline of expectations, and if we have

to, once we -- which would be taking this issue 1,000 miles

and then we can talk about maybe improving it in the

future, but in the name -- as I mentioned earlier, in the

name of making a better product that we should -- you know,

inaction because we need to make a better product or go

further. I’m very reluctant to do that. So I look forward

to your specific recommendations on how we make the bill

better, but I do want to thank you for you pushing for the

bill and supporting it with some minor changes.

I guess, just could you generally go over the

areas or the specific concerns that you have so that we can

work on resolving them or at least getting you an answer -­

MR. SEILHAMER: It’s pretty much in my testimony.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay.

MR. SEILHAMER: One of the biggest things is to

be standardized across the State and you can’t skirt the

issues, that the smaller contractors that would consider

themselves as a home improvement contractor be held to the

same standards as everybody else.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: But I don’t think

we’re regulating those, right? We’re only saying -­

MR. SEILHAMER: Like I say, I missed some of the

testimony before I come in, so you may have already talked

about it.

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REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: No, I guess my thing

would be if we're not licensing -- we're licensing

plumbing, plumbers. To deem yourself a licensed plumber in

Pennsylvania, you have to meet these expectations. If you

don't meet those expectations, I don't think we're saying

you can't call yourself a plumber or provide plumbing

service, right?

MR. SEILHAMER: I think I heard someone mention

when I first come in the door that if you have a home

improvement license, that that license covers certain parts

of electrical, plumbing, HVAC, that sort of thing. I don't

know how much that actually teaches a plumber under that

home improvement license.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: In the name of time

-- but I will -- I just want to say on the record, though,

that I look forward to working with you on specific

recommendations on the bill and would like to get to a

product that you can be totally in support of, but I

appreciate your efforts thus far.

MR. SEILHAMER: Absolutely. And like I mentioned

in my testimony, I have a master license in three States,

Virginia being one of the most strict. The test I had to

take for that is much harder than any other test I've ever

had to take. But the continuing education requirement is a

good thing, keep up with the changes to the code and that

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sort of thing, so I believe in that.

And I owned my own business for 26 years, and

every employee I hired, I hired either from a trade school,

right out of high school, and when they came to work for

me, they had to go through the apprenticeship program, and

I paid for it. So I believe in education, and I believe in

having a good, well-trained workforce. That’s what built

my company, and that’s what I believe in. So I think

you’re on the right path. It could be tweaked a little

bit, and we’re willing to work with you to do that.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay, Jim. You’re

willing to do that, then?

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I’d be more than

happy to. Thank you.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Thank you,

Mr. Seilhamer.

MR. SEILHAMER: Thank you.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Anybody else have

questions before I -- thank you very much for your

testimony.

Abraham -- is it Amoros -- had to leave, so the

testimony that he has is in the packet, so you can read

that because I guess he had to be somewhere.

We also have Rick Bloomingdale. He’s the

President of the AFL-CIO. And if he’d step forward,

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please.

MR. BLOOMINGDALE: Well, I’m sure you’ve heard a

lot of what I’m going to say, so -- our panel of plumbers

behind me, but I’ll go through it quickly. It’s all in

your -- know many of you need to get back to your

districts. You’ve got constituents who, I’m sure, want to

talk to you and you’re here in Harrisburg, and I appreciate

your taking the time to have this hearing. So again, it’s

three or four pages. I’ll read through it and then be

happy to answer any questions.

But good morning, Chairperson Harhart and

Chairman Readshaw, Members of the Committee. My name is

Rick Bloomingdale. I’m the President of the Pennsylvania

AFL-CIO, and here today on behalf of our affiliated labor

organizations representing over 800,000 members.

Thank you very much for this opportunity to

present testimony regarding House Bill 1357, the State

licensure bill for plumbers.

Pennsylvania is one of only six States in the

country that currently does not have a State license for

plumbers. Each of the States bordering Pennsylvania has a

State license, and because our State does not have a State

license or any other consistent method of licensing

plumbers, Pennsylvania contractors cannot cross State lines

into the sister States to bid or secure work on projects in

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these States. It’s very difficult for Pennsylvania

contractors to qualify and test in these States.

Conversely, most municipalities and townships in

Pennsylvania recognize and grant licenses to contractors

from the surrounding States with the knowledge that the

person has to meet all the requirements for their State

licensing structure.

A key component of this legislation is

reciprocity. This legislation would put Pennsylvania

contractors on a more nearly level playing field and give

the Commonwealth a mechanism to deny out-of-State

contractors the access in Pennsylvania if their home State

does not offer the same benefit to Pennsylvania

contractors.

The protection of current jobs and revenue

streams is very important to the Pennsylvania AFL-CIO, and

we trust that this legislation in no way jeopardizes them.

We certainly don’t envision this bill as jeopardizing

current plumbers’ jobs because of a very liberal

grandfather section that’s contained in H.B. 1357. Persons

currently installing plumbing in most cases will receive a

license without testing.

This legislation would not disrupt or change any

existing practices of work, jurisdiction, or job

assignments. We hope it would not disrupt or change any

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existing practices of job or work permitting. If a task

currently does not require a plumbing permit, the

requirements would not change under this legislation. To

be clear, H.B. 1357 deals only with who is legally

permitted to call themselves and advertise themselves as

licensed plumbers, and of course we believe those are the

folks who go through our accredited plumbers apprenticeship

schools, some of the best in the Nation, paid for by our

unions and their workers. This concept is supported by the

Pennsylvania AFL-CIO.

There are some noteworthy economic aspects to

H.B. 1357. Many companies spend thousands upon thousands

of dollars on an annual basis to purchase licenses in each

and every township, borough, and county in which they do

any kind of work. Under this legislation, one would pay

for one license that would be recognized statewide. This

would be a significant cost savings to the contractor,

consumer, and end user. If passed, this would potentially

generate millions of dollars annually for Pennsylvania in

licensing fees. However, we need to ensure that these fees

are shared with local governments that may lose fees as a

result of this act and that these fees are used to hire

inspectors to guarantee the safety of affected worksites.

Now, just to add an addition here, too many times

we’ve seen revenue streams moved around and we lose the

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ability to hire folks, right? They say, well, got this

money now; we’re going to put it somewhere else. We’ve got

to make sure that the money to issue the license, do the

training, that we continue to have the best system in the

State for our plumbers who want to work in this State.

Home Improvement Contract registration within the

State Attorney General’s Office is improved under this

bill. An additional layer of protection for all consumers

would be added. Consumers would have the ability to verify

by way of a State website if a person is licensed and

qualified to provide the services they are offering. It

would stop the dangerous practice by some townships and

boroughs of issuing permits to persons with an HIC number

and not a trade-specific license. This practice exposes

the consumer to great economic, health, and safety risk.

Indeed, in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania a

person is required to have a State license to cut, style,

or braid hair, for example, but in the plumbers’ trade,

although piping systems can be done incorrectly and end up

putting the health of many people in jeopardy, in

Pennsylvania, there is no regulation. This legislation

will help to ensure that the rights, health, safety, and

economic well-being of all citizens of the Commonwealth of

Pennsylvania are protected.

The plumbing industry across the State has worked

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for over 10 years to obtain a consistent method for the

licensing of plumbers. The universal motto of the plumbing

industry worldwide is and has always been "the plumber

protects the health of the Nation." Plumbers, as

professionals in their craft, feel the same sense of duty

to protect the public and the environment as do our elected

officials.

And by the way, I would just add that they take

incredible pride in the skill and the work that they do to

provide services for the citizens of Pennsylvania, and as

many of you may have seen, over 300 plumbers went to Flint,

Michigan, for free to help folks install filters and other

safety devices to make sure that their water is as clean as

it could be. And I thank you for this opportunity to

appear before you. Any questions?

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.

MR. BLOOMINGDALE: I told you it’d be quick.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Any questions? Jim?

Representative Christiana, do you have any?

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Jim’s fine.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Jim’s fine?

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Jim’s fine.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Well, thank you

very much for your -­

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I just have one quick

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one.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Oh, well, you said you

were fine.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: No, no, I was saying

-- you said, Jim, Representative Christiana -­

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Oh, oh, I’m sorry.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: — Jim is okay.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay.

MR. BLOOMINGDALE: So do you have a question?

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Thank you. Yes, I

wasn’t going to let you -- that was a good try, though.

You almost got rid of me.

Mr. Bloomingdale, just one follow-up to something

you alluded to. Both parties boast about the tremendous

opportunities in the skilled trades today from an

employment perspective, and whether you’re a plumber, a

steam fitter, across the board there’s a tremendous amount

of opportunity. Both parties are actually bragging about

that.

And when compared to the opportunities facing

students that are coming -- graduates from higher education

that are coming out with hundreds of thousands of student

loans and that degree may not even land them a job right

away, when compared with that and the opportunities in the

trades, it is becoming even more apparent the opportunities

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that are associated with the skilled trades. And

professionalizing this industry, as you had kind of alluded

to, in growing that opportunity in the skilled trades

starts with a statewide licensure, correct? I mean, if we

want to professionalize it and grow and grow the

opportunities, we must have a statewide licensure.

MR. BLOOMINGDALE: That's correct, but they're

already professionals. You don't need -­

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Correct.

MR. BLOOMINGDALE: -- to -- I mean, these guys, I

can't say -- I always call the building trades,

apprenticeship schools, it's like college for people who

are good with their hands not just their minds. If you've

ever been to any of their training centers, the amount of

knowledge that you have to have, I mean, these are

incredibly smart men and women who go through these

apprenticeship programs, but they're incredibly skilled

with their hands as well.

So, yes, we have the best-trained members in the

United Association -- well, I guess they're standardized so

I can't say in the country but certainly in Pennsylvania.

And their skills -- if you have a plumbers union card in

Pennsylvania, you can go to any State in the Nation and be

a plumber in that State as well because that card is as

good as that license. But in Pennsylvania we've got some

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quirks that we’ve got to figure, and I agree with you that

that’s a long way to saying yes. We need a statewide

license.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: And I agree with you.

They are already professionals doing some of the best work

in the country, but there’s no way in Pennsylvania to

identify them separately than those that -­

MR. BLOOMINGDALE: No.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: -- are not operating

at the talent level that they are. And so this is a way

for them to identify themselves and differentiate

themselves and as well as I think get a bill that should

have been put in place a long time ago but interest groups

weren’t as willing to compromise, and I think that’s a

credit to your members, as well as the previous gentlemen’s

members for getting this bill to this point, and a credit

to the gentlelady for being so tough on both sides to

compromise and get to the table. So thank you for your

testimony.

MR. BLOOMINGDALE: And thank you, Representative.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you,

Mr. Bloomingdale.

MR. BLOOMINGDALE: Thank you.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: That was easy, huh?

Our next testifier is Mr. Kevin Clarke. He is

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the immediate past President of the BOMA Pittsburgh.

Hello. Welcome.

MR. CLARKE: Thank you. I’ll keep my comments

brief.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: I appreciate it.

MR. CLARKE: Sure. And I will acknowledge that

you have my testimony, so a brief background on who I am

and who I represent. And good morning, everybody. Thank

you, Madam Chair, Chairman Readshaw. Glad to be here, rest

of the Committee Members.

As you said my name is Kevin Clarke, and I’m the

immediate past President of the Building Owners and

Managers Association of Pittsburgh, more commonly known as

BOMA. I’m also a past member of the Pennsylvania State

Review and Advisory Council Collaborative.

BOMA Pittsburgh, founded in 1919, is a federation

of BOMA International, which was founded in 1906. We’re a

very old, established organization. We have 17,000 members

who manage more than 10 billion square feet of commercial

properties in the United States that provides space for 44

million jobs. Together with BOMA Philadelphia and BOMA

Harrisburg, Pennsylvania BOMA chapters encompass 500

members and represent more than 100 million square feet of

built environment.

The impact of the commercial building industry to

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Pennsylvania on an annual basis includes contributing over

$7 billion to the economy, over $2 billion in new taxable

earnings, and supports more than 145,000 jobs annually.

And a lot of those jobs are with plumbers. And we are

happy to do that. We rely on the plumbers industry to

provide safe, secure, and code-compliant systems in our

building so we can provide a safe environment for our

owners and tenants and occupiers and services that support

those operations.

BOMA’s a big supporter in the code environment.

We helped develop the International Code Council back in

2000 and helped develop the new I-Codes, and we rely

heavily on the code environment to help us in our

operations and building of new buildings. So we’re very

sensitive to how the codes are adopted. That’s why I was

involved in the IRAC Board.

So not getting into too much, but I wanted to let

you know that today I’m here in opposition of House Bill

1357, and I’m in opposition for the following reasons:

We do agree that there should be government

oversight on the certification of plumbers and plumbing

contractors, and we recommend that the same result could be

easily achieved by following the existing process that’s

already established for the construction industry through

the Office of the Attorney General.

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We have a problem with the establishment of a

Plumbing Board because the authority that is developed, as

stated in Section 302.6 of the bill is ambiguous and will

allow the board to overreach authority beyond the law’s

intent and affect the current code. We’re worried about it

affecting the current code adoption environment, which

would deliver confusion out in the field between architects

and builders on what they should be doing and what we hire

them to do to build a space and put in plumbing systems.

We also have an issue with the establishment of

the Plumbing Board and the fees associated, as described in

the bill because obviously, as owners and operators of

buildings, those fees come down to us, so we are cognizant

of those costs and how it may or may not competitively give

us a disadvantage to other regions, other States, and help

maintain commerce and economic development in the area. We

need to be competitive. So any time there are fees that

are passed on to the building environment, it affects that

and we’re charged with making sure that we do the right

thing at the right time.

So for those reasons we have a problem with H.B.

1357 and would hope that you would reconsider your position

on passing the bill. And maybe -- well, not maybe, but we

would also like to be a supporter of any improvements to

the RAC process. We know that the Review and Advisory

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Council and the code adoption process needs some work here

in Pennsylvania. We feel that’s the proper way to control

everything downstream from the building construction and

development industry.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Thank you.

MR. CLARKE: Those are my brief comments. I’ll

be glad to answer anybody’s questions?

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Yes, absolutely. But

one thing, this is a public hearing, and we want to take

all the testimony, you know, everybody’s testimony. It

doesn’t mean it’s a sure thing for the bill to pass.

MR. CLARKE: Okay.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: There’s still work that

needs to be done, so let’s just make that clear, okay?

Anybody? Jim? Keith? Representative Gillespie?

REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: My mike is not

working, Madam Chairman.

And I don’t have a question for Mr. Clarke. I

was going through the packet here and I found quite an

array of pictures, and I’m wondering if anybody here was

responsible for those that I could maybe just have a one-

on-one with them because I have some questions regarding

whoever -- sir, if you could maybe touch base at the end of

the hearing, I’d like to go over some of these with you if

that’s possible.

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UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, sir.

REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Thank you, Madam

Chairman.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Representative

Christiana?

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Thank you, Madam

Chair. And thank you for your testimony.

I just have a couple follow-ups to your three

objections. You disagree with the establishment of the

Plumbing Board because of the costs will be passed along,

but you’re supportive of the code environment. I mean,

code changes have a significant financial implication,

right, so you’re okay with -- maybe even more substantial

depending on the changes than establishing a statewide

board -­

MR. CLARKE: The -­

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: -- could you further

explain how that cost gets passed on and how that’s going

to be meaningful.

MR. CLARKE: Well, certainly. Our support of the

code process, especially with the International Code

Council, is derived from the way that the ICC codes are

passed. They’re a large public hearing process, there’s -­

now it’s an electronic voting process that gives everybody

opportunity to put their ideas and their needs and their

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suggestions to develop model codes, it’s controlled by the

International Code Council, and BOMA’s involved in that

process, so we make sure that there aren’t onerous codes

that get passed down to the States, to the local

municipalities. So we feel that that encompassing

oversight of the codes, we’re comfortable with that.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay. But what does

that have to do with regulating the profession -- or, I’m

sorry -­

MR. CLARKE: It doesn’t have anything to do with

regulating the profession.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay. So my point is

then why bring that up as almost it’s an alternative than

to what we’re trying to accomplish here and why your

objections are somehow intertwined with the code

establishment process?

MR. CLARKE: Well, it’s they’re separate but

they’re related. Our problem is with the establishment of

a board and, yes, the main focus of the board is to have

oversight on how plumbers become journeymen -­

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Sure.

MR. CLARKE: -- masters. We don’t have a problem

with that, but the establishment of a board, it’s another

opportunity for that board -- and we’ve seen it in other

States -- to grow into a code establishment function.

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REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay. So then we're

into my second question, which is the authority of the

board -­

MR. CLARKE: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: -- the authority of

the board, which it seems to be your paramount objection,

right, because you said you support the idea of the

oversight on a certification of plumbers, just not through

the board process, and then you have concerns with the

authority of the board. So I want to talk about that.

Because the authority of the board, your objection to that

is based on the board somehow being involved in the code

enforcement -­

MR. CLARKE: Eventually, it would, not in the

bill, but by fact of establishment of that, there would

have to be other legislations coming afterwards to make

sure that that board doesn't grow into something other than

what H.B. 1357 -­

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: No, I -- this

slippery slope argument, though, we just talked about how

the code in the -- what we're attempting here, like two

totally separate issues, and now this is like a pathway to

the board -­

MR. CLARKE: To something bigger, right.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Right, which --

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MR. CLARKE: Right.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Listen, there’s a lot

of people with a lot of agendas in this town, but the

legislative intent I think would be very clearly defined as

that is nowhere near the intent, and the intent is what we

just spent a couple hours talking about. But I understand

your concern, and if there’s a specific way that you can

recommend that we don’t overstep or we put protections in

place that this isn’t a board enforcement authority as

well, I’ll be more than happy to take your specific

recommendations on putting the protections in place so this

doesn’t happen.

Do you do work with plumbers that are from

Maryland and New Jersey? Do they come in for your members

and do work in Pennsylvania?

MR. CLARKE: Well, I can’t speak for my

counterparts in Philadelphia and in Harrisburg, but in

Pittsburgh -­

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay, Ohio. I forgot

that you’re from the western part of the State. Do you

have plumbers -­

MR. CLARKE: Yes, that’s -­

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: -- that come in from

Ohio and do work in the city?

MR. CLARKE: From a plumber’s perspective?

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REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Yes.

MR. CLARKE: We stick specifically to BOMA

members, which are in the Pittsburgh area.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay. I guess —

MR. CLARKE: We do that because -- excuse me. We

do that because we want to make sure that the work that’s

being done is being done professionally, being done

correctly, so we use vetted providers.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: BOMA has a Pittsburgh

chapter but is a national organization, correct?

MR. CLARKE: It’s an international organization.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: International

organization.

MR. CLARKE: Made up of 94 associations out of

cities.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: And then Pittsburgh,

you’re saying, the plumbing work that’s done for you in

Pittsburgh is only Pittsburgh BOMA members or could it be

an Ohio BOMA member?

MR. CLARKE: I’m not sure I understand the

question.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I said the work being

done in Pittsburgh -­

MR. CLARKE: Right.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: -- you said was being

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done by -- your plumbing work -­

MR. CLARKE: Right.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: — in your facilities

is done by a BOMA member.

MR. CLARKE: Right.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: A Pittsburgh BOMA

member. Do you have a BOMA member that is from Ohio that

would come into Pittsburgh and do work?

MR. CLARKE: Well, that could be possible, but it

wouldn’t be practical out in the field because their costs

would be higher.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Because they have a

State license.

MR. CLARKE: Or the proximity.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay.

MR. CLARKE: Why would someone from Cleveland

drive to -- if our local plumbers here in Pittsburgh

couldn’t beat the price of someone coming out of State,

then that’s that particular vendor’s -- something we have

to talk about. It’s not about any law -­

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Yes, I guess —

MR. CLARKE: -- or any legislation that would

require that.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I guess I’m just

confused that if folks are coming in from Ohio and doing

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work in Pennsylvania for a reason, they would have -- and

your idea that a statewide license increases costs that

gets passed on, they would incur those costs. And so I’m

really skeptical of how much of a financial impact this

bill will have on your members. I guess I’m trying to

understand how to quantify that.

MR. CLARKE: Well, I don’t know the

quantification either, Representative. All I know is when

there’s government regulation that increases costs to a

certain industry, that cost gets passed down to the

consumer, and I represent a large consumer base. So

whether -­

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I can understand

that.

MR. CLARKE: -- it’s -- and I don’t know how to

quantify it if it’s -­

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: No, no —

MR. CLARKE: -- coming my way.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Hey, listen, I’m a

fiscal conservative. I completely understand. I guess my

follow-up question to you then would be what are the costs

of having an unregulated industry essentially from a

statewide perspective, an unregulated industry when we

can’t differentiate those that perform at a high level and

have years and years of expertise and have gone through

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training versus those who just hang out a shingle and do

shoddy work and then it ultimately increases costs because

somebody has to come back and fix it and redo it. I mean,

you would see those examples, right, where you have to

spend more because somebody did a poor job. And maybe not

with your members or your consumers, but you could see how

other consumers regularly have those consequences from

doing less-than-adequate work.

MR. CLARKE: Correct. I’m in the big environment

so we take a lot of effort in vetting who we use because we

don’t want to end up with having to do something twice or

more expensive.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I think this bill —

MR. CLARKE: So when we go out in the field -­

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: -- actually ensures,

I guess, that those like you have a better grasp on who

you’re hiring. And every consumer deserves the level of

protection that you deserve. The little old lady who’s a

widow and she calls a plumber, she should have an

expectation of what that means, and there’s no way for her

to do that. The same level -- you have a tremendous amount

of assets to you to really nail down what it is that your

expectations of a service. I think Mrs. Jones and little

Beaver deserve the same level of expectations when she

calls on a plumber, too.

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Thank you, Madam Chair.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you. One more

question. And Representative Santora.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: And I apologize. I just

got back. I had another commitment that I had made.

BOMA Pittsburgh, do you represent the surrounding

areas of Pittsburgh as well or just Pittsburgh proper?

MR. CLARKE: Our reach goes in the 10-county

western Pennsylvania region.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: So —

MR. CLARKE: We don't go to Erie -­

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: I got it. But there's

licenses that would be required in individual

municipalities?

MR. CLARKE: Correct.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: So the cost to obtain

all of those licenses would be less than one statewide

license?

MR. CLARKE: It's unknown. It's up to the

individual municipality, governmental organization, and the

businesses that are in that area.

REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Okay. And I come from

the real estate development world, 16 years, and one of my

concerns is the amount of companies coming in from out of

the Commonwealth. And I'm not talking Ohio, New Jersey.

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I’m talking South Carolina, Alabama, Kentucky, you name it.

And plumbers included in that. And it’s one area that,

again, it’s a major concern. It should be -- I don’t like

to use the word regulated but there should be a statewide

license required in order to perform in Pennsylvania. So,

again, I will support this bill. Thank you.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you. Thank you

all for your testimony.

And I’ve been listening to this argument and why

you’re concerned about this board being -- I’m assuming

you’re talking about the licensing board that would be in

place?

MR. CLARKE: Yes.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: And I do know, though,

being Chair and if it’s dealing with Professional Licensure

or any Committee, most of any increases or regulations, it

goes through a long lengthy process, it doesn’t always

happen, and I know any fees that go through any of the

boards, any board, does have to be approved and deemed by

let’s say Professional Licensure Committee. And I think

most the members who sit on this board are very

conservative and really look at that before giving the

approval of an increase. I mean, you have to really

justify why you need that increase before it’s approved.

Is that mainly what you’re concerned about?

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MR. CLARKE: Well, that’s only part of it. The

main concern is what other things this board will do

besides licensing and regulating the plumbers.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: I think that would be

controlled by the Legislature as well. I would think

that -­

MR. CLARKE: Right.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: — we would have to do

that. So that would be for other legislation and other

Committee meetings.

MR. CLARKE: Right.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: So —

MR. CLARKE: Okay.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Understood.

MR. CLARKE: Understood.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: I understand where

you’re coming from.

MR. CLARKE: Understood.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: But I do thank everybody

for attending this, and it was a very good meeting, I feel.

I thought everybody gave good testimony.

Representative Christiana, I think if you get all

the bugs worked out, well, you know the drill. You know

what you need to do.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I’ll get to work,

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Madam Chair.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay.

REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: And I’ll report back.

Thank you. I know what the expectations are, and I intend

to meet them. Thank you.

MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: And I know you will. I

know you will.

But anyway, I thank you, everybody, for coming.

And you have a good day.

(The hearing concluded at 11:36 a.m.)

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1 I hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings

are a true and accurate transcription produced from audio

on the said proceedings and that this is a correct

transcript of the same.

Christy Snyder

Transcriptionist

Diaz Transcription Services