Dam atSouher. Coss [1 ULY 185.JAddress-iv. Reply. 85

Ntqzslatibe asstltbI1 mJfonday, .1st .July, 18965-

Ssrenythen ing of TelegisqA line on tie North- WVestCoast-Dans at Southern Cross, aud the ractsleadiny *hereto-rExport Ditties Mt-peal fill;

third readiny-Address-mt-Iteply1 ,-a4joe rpeddebaie--Adjur-nntu

THE SPEAKER took the chair at 7.30 p.m.

STRENGTHENING OF TELEGRAPH LINEON\ lNORTH-WEVST COAST.

MR. TRAYLEN, in adeordance with notice,asked the Premier, whether the Governmentproposed to take stops to strengthen thetelegraph line on the North-West coast, inthose places where it is liable to be washeddown by floods, so sas to keep an opencommunication by cable with England eTaBroome.

TnE PREMIER (Hon. Sir 1. Forrest)replied that the responsible Minister hadthe mattes- under consideration, but feeredthat nothing wore could be done in thematter. Every effort was being made tomake the Service efficient.

DAMIS AT SOUTHERN CEOS.St AND RACESLEADING THERETO.

Mu. GEORGE, in accordance with notice,asked the Director of Public Works:-

1. What quantity of water had been im-pounded in each dam at Southern Crossdaring the recent rains.

2. Whether it was correct tbat the racesleading thereto had been made in materialwhich, frout its nature, is porous, and per-mits the water to escape before reachingthe dams.

3. Whether the Department contemplatedlining the races referred to with cement orother material suitable for the purpose.

4. If so, when would this work be. carriedout.

Tn DIRECTOR or PUBLIC WORKS(Hon. H. W. Venn) replied as follows:-

1. There are two dams at SouthernCoes,and the quantity of water impounded in oneof them during the recent rains was 290,000gallons, and none in the other one.

2. There are no rockc mounds at SouthernCross, as in the case of most of the other

reservoirs, and the catchinent races leadinginto the tanks had neessarily, therefore, tobe cut through porous ground, as the ujioleof the ground in the vicinity is porous, andit was consequently never expected that anywater would get into these tanks other thanin exceptionally heavy downpours; but it ishoped that in exceptionally heavy down poursthey wiUl catch some water, and one of themdid actually catch 290,000 gallons during therecent rains.

3. Whether lining the catebmpat. raceswith cement, or laying earthen ware pipes ortroughs in them, would be of any materialbenefit, is aL question which was raised soiueshort time back, and is now being carefullyconsidered.

4. 1 cannuot say at present exactly whatwill he done, or when ib will be done, isit will depend upon the reports which I likvucalled for on the subject.

EXPORT DUTIES REPEAL BILL.

Read a third time, and transmitted to theLegislative Council.

ADDRES9-TIN-ItEFLY TO THEGOVERNOR'S :SPEECH.

ADJOenNID uEAaTv.

Mr. ILLINGWORTH; Mr. Speaker-I donot think that any honorable in emiber has tinyreason to complin, so far, of any want ofliberty that has been ranted to him in thediscussicat of thifs Address-i-Reply. I notionthat there is a tendency, and has been of latea growing tendency, on the part especially ofMinisters, and indeed Of Reuses generally, tocurtail the debate on the Address-in-Reply,the idea being that it is somiething of thecharacter of a waste of time. tut I do notthink, Sir, that here that has been the ease ;and I am glad of it, for I look upon thu debateupon the A ddress-in -Reply as occupying verymuch the same place in regard to the gene-ulpolicy of the Government, in our Parlia-mentary procedure, that the second readingdebate occupies in connection with ab Bill, andthat it is wclclated to save a considerableamount of time later on. I notice that inSouth Australia, where their Parliament atthe present moment has reached soniewhsitthe same stage as wve have to-day-that is,they are in the act of discussing the Address-in-l1eply-I notice that in that colony 38members have already spokern to the Address,

Dams at Southern Cross [1 JULY, 1895.]

86 Address-ia-Reply.[AS BL.Adrs--Rp.

and one of them has spoken for four hours. Ican assure this 'House it is not my intention tospeakk for four hours to-night. (Murmurs ofsatisfaction.) I think, however, it is desirablethat a considerable amount of latit-ude shouldhe given in this debate on the Address-in-Reply, iD order that the actions of theMinistry may be brought under generalreview. It must be remembered that for aboutseven months of the year the Ministry havea free hand. They do exactly what theyple.-ae, without any criticism whatever, so faras Parliament is concernod; and, although sofar we have had perhaps but very little Causeto complain in reference to Ministers in West-ern Autstralia, the timne may come when wemay not hare such perfect Ministers ais wepossess to-day. The time may come whenthere may he defects of administration. Thetime may come when things may be done of acharacter during the recess, by those in office,that may call for the censure of Parliament.Possibly, therefore, it is as well that Parlia-ment should retain hold of its right of review-ing the actions of Ministers during the. recess.Without any further preliminary remarks, Idesire, Sir, to enter at once upon the workwhich is before us, and that is to deal withthe Address-in-tteply to His Excellency'sSpeech. The first thing that suggests itself tome in this Speech is that it pertains some-what to the definition we used to have in ourschool dlays of a geometrical line-lengthwithout breadth. I think I might use thewords of Lindsay Gordoi in regard to it, andsay it is mostly " froth and bubble." O)r Imight apply to it an expression which anothergreat writer, Charles Dickens, puts in themouth of one of his characters, when he saidthat what he knew and what he didn't knowwould make a good book, especinally what hedidn't know. I will say the same of thisSpeech:- what is in it, and what is not init, would make a first-class Governor'sSpeech, especially what is not in it.Surely, never before in the history of Par-liaments was ever so much language put intothe mouth of a Governor, with so little in it.Looking at it, boiled down, it amounts tosomething like this: Ministers have to re-port that there has been an increase of re-venue, bringing the year's rdeenue up to overa million. In thle next place, they have toreport that they have raised a loan at 341 percent., which realised a premium of £3 is..441. per cent, In the third place, they have

to report that, during the recess, five repre-sentatives, including thle Premier himself,went to Hobart to attend the Federal Council,but that the Ministry do not believe inFederation. Next, they have to report thatour railways have attained this position: thatthey are paying not only their working ex-penses, but also the interest on their firstcost. 'Next, they report that they intend toremove the Railway Workshops from P're-mantle to the Midland Junction, And thatthey are going to build A, branch of the RoyalMint, aund are also going to reduce thefreights on our railways. Then they tell usthat they are going to bring in the MunicipalDill, which this House passed List session,nd that they are geimg to revise the Mining

Lawsi, and that they are going to appointInspectors of Mines, that they arc going toamend the Electoral Act, that they are goingto repeal the export duties on pearls andsandalwood, that they propose to abolishthe Ecclesiastical Grant, and that theyhave alreay surveyed the railway to Bridge-town. rhe sum total of the whole of thislong Speech m ay be thus boiled down; ad Iwant, briefly, just to look au it ats it standsIbefore us. T'here is an under current goingthrough the whole of this Speech which Ithink Ministers must have got from para-graphs which have appeared in sonmc of urnewspapers-a, Sort Of c(nbtant and never-ending laudation and gratulation, which re-mindsi me of a friend of mine who went toSydney. After being there for several daysand being asked about fifty times what hethought of their harbour, and putting on asomeowhat cynical expression when asked thesame question by one gentleman, that gentle-man turned upon him, and said " You don'tseema to appreciate our bjeautiful harbour.""Well, " thle answer was, " I think you havegreat reason to be proud of your harbour, butwhat I object to is to your eternally talkingabout it, as if you had dug it out yonrselves "Now, Sir, I have no objection whatever to themost being made of the fortunate circum-stances in which Ministers are placed justnow in this colony. 'Truly, " The lines havefallen to thema in pleasant places, and theyhave a goodtly heritage, " which we all rejoiceto see, But what I object to is this everinsi-ing talk, this eternal choruts Of congratulation,as if the present prosperity were due to theaction of the Ministry. Let usi leek, at thefirst cause for congratulation that comes up

[ASSEMBLY.] Address-iu-Reply.

Addrss-n-Rptp [1 ULY 185.JAdress-vq-Rcply. 87

in this Speech: we are told that the revenuehas increased to a illion. Very well.What about that? When we werediscussing the Estimates last year I made thisremark, which appears in Mansard, on page810. Speaking of the estimated Customsrevenue, I said: " Tihen we come to theCustoms, which is the source of the direct

taxation of the people. Here we ex-peeL to receive a revenue of £424,000,

"according to these estimates. I am not a"prophet, nor the son of a prophet, but if this"macjnt does not come out by the end of the"year at £550,000, instead of £424,000, I shalllibe very much surprised." Now, any business

mnan who watched the signs of the timies couldhave told the Premier that there would lio avery much larger revenue than ho eitimiated,and he was told so at the time in this House,Of course it is a good thing for us to have allthis money. We are all pleased to hear aboutit. But supposing there hud been a mis-estimate On the other side ? Supposing- theTreasurer had been £200,000 deficient in hiscalculations, instead of having a surplus of£X200,000 V I say if the TIreaury cannotestimate its; revenue (in estimating a mattcrof at million) within one-fifth of the wholeamount, there umust he something wrong.We are now pledged in this House to theborrowing of aL million and a hlf of money,a~nd whaitIwat to emphasise isthis: If theTreasurer had last year led us to suppose thatinstead of a revenue of £83,000, which washis estimated revenue, we were going toreceive a million, I venture to say thatthis House would not have sanctionedthe borrowing of so large a sum as £1,500,000,There was no necessity whatever to haveborrowed it. I therefore cout it as adefect on the part of the Ministry, 'ratherthan us a subject for congratulation andadulation, that they have under-estimatedthe country's revenue by upwards of a quarterof a million. I think it is to their discreditrather than to their credit that they were sofar out of their reckoning. I think they oughtto have been in ab position to have given us anearer estimate of what the public revenuewats likely to bie, so that we might have beenin a position to have formed a judgment as towhether it would be wise or otherwise to haveproceeded with the raising of so large aloan as that of a million and a halfof money, wvhen it tunis out there wan nonecessity for it. Looking at this perpetua'

adulation of the Ministry that has been goingon ever since they have been in offie, it ap-pears to me that if one-tenth of the plrise thatis lavished upon them by their friends and ad-mirers were true, a grateful public ought tohave started a guinea subscription and raised agolden initLzeut to the Forrest Ministry.

IThis imaposing structUre should have four ofthe Ministers artistically placed, one onechl corner, and the Preieir standing aloftin the midst of thoem, looking over thewhole, with somnething of the proud air whichI can imagine Nebuchadnezzar to have as-srumod when lie cried out " Is not thisgreat Babylon which I have builded 7" Thatseems to be the feeling of the presentMinistry. For the ]Last six mnonths there hasbeen one perpetual talk. in some quarters, ofthe success and prosperity of this countryarising free' the eflforts of the Ministry. Sir,I think it is right to say and to point out thatso far as the success aind prosperity and theexpansion of the revenue of this colony, is

concerned, the Ministry has no more to dowith it than the man in the moon ; and pos-sibly not so munch, if that ancient gentlemanhas as much to do with influencing theweather as some people say he has, for thercknt rains3 have done; as much and more forthis country than ainy Ministry can hope to do.[ndeed I ami reminded of the words of OliverGoldsmith.-

"How smell of all that huiman hearts endureThat pars which laws or kings can Cause 11r

cure!I"The men who have made this country greatand prosperous are not the Ministry, but themen who have taken their lives in their hands,going forth into the waterless desert prospect-ing for gold. These men have done, and aredeing, wore for Western Australia thantwenty Ministries ; and, if there is to be anyludation, if there ani to be gratulations and-congratulations exchanged, let us give honourto whom honour is due. Let us give it to thehardy and undaunted men who have foughtthe battle, and won our prosperity for us.Let us, give it to the men who, by theirenergy and their self-sacrifice, and theirpersistent efforts, have raised the revenueof the country froze X414,313, which it was in1890, to the pr'esent totail of over a million. Iin not prepared to give the Ministry veryinuch praise or to offer them mnuch congratula-tion on the part they have played in bringingab~out this satisfactory result. Another point

Address-in-Repty. [1 JULY, 1895.]

88 Addross-tn-Replt. [ASSEMBLY.) Address-in-Respyv

which is broughit up in this Speech, as havingcontributed to the country's success and itspresent position, is the fact that Nye have beenable to raise a Loan at 3 per cent at a premiumof £93 Is. 4d. What is there that we should gointo ecatacies over in this, when we find thateven defeated and dishonoured China can suc-coed in raising its millions, in the presentcondition of the money market? While onthis point I askc permission to read a line or twofrom the money article that appeared in theArgus, as late as the 22nd June last. 'Thewriter Rays:

The brand upward inoivenientitt Colonial Govern-mont, securities has continued during the postbaweek,the individual advances ranging from * to 2. Wehave got back to the halcyon (d., s of colonial cre-dit, owying partly to the extraordinary dearth offirst-class securities in London, and partly to thesteady regularity with which the public obligationsofthe colonies have been sot. The British invest-ig public recognise that one of the greatest fina,,-.i., convulsions of modern times has not post-poised the payment of interest for a single dlay.At present, borrowers in London cn obtain theuse of money at the small charge of 1 per cent, perannum. And there is over JM,OO,OO of gold andbullion it. the Bank of England,

Mr. A. FoRREsT:; You can't get money inWestern Australia at .1 per cent.

ME. ILLINGWORTIL Then locok again atpoor- discredited Victoria, which is so snuck" down in the dumps." That colony has latelymade larger advances in ita bonds than layother Australian colony. We know this is notin consequence of any special prosperity en-joyed by Victoria. On the contrary. lt isbecause of the vast amount of money that isseeking investment in London. Now, I ask,why under such favorable circumstances asthese, did not the Ministry raise the whole oftheir loanP Why is it that they have goneupon the market with something like one-halfinstead of the whole, of their loan ? -If theyhave acted upon the advice of their financialadvisers in London, that. will be to mea sufficient reason ; but, if they haveacted upon their own advice ad con-trary to the advice of their financial advisers,I think they are to blame. In any case itseems to iwe there is nothing to get excitedabout in our having raised this lomain thepresent state of the money market, at theprice we did, when poor unfortuniate Chinahas been equally successful, and is ablae raise £SO,OC,OOO if she wants to. Yet this isput in the Governor's Speech as somethingwhich this great colony ought to be proud of,and somnething which was 'considered worthyof finding a place in this Speech, with its great

length without breadth. The next poiut Idesire to rotor to is the question of FederationWhat the Ministry have to tell us about thismay be briefly stated thus:" Five of us wentto Hobrt"-I suppose the Premier paid theexpenses; I preset he paid them out of hisown pocket; if he did, of course we have noright to complain, but if he comes here andasks the public to pay I think we have reasonto complain, because what the Premier tells us,in effect, is this, " Five of us went to Hobartto take part in the Federation Conference, butI am not in favour of Federation; we simplywent to Hobart for a trip, without any desireor intention of throwing in our lot in theiu-terests of Federation." That is somethingwhich I cannot understand. But that is theposition assumed by the Ministry towardsthis great question. Apart front that, I regretthat the leader of the Opposition-it is knownI an, not an Oppositionist myself-who has re-cently been to the other colonies, seems tohave imagined that the few people he caine incontact with expressed the feeling of the wholecommnunity amongst which ho moved, ilhen hetold us the other day, that no interest wastaken in this question of F~ederation in theother colonies. Why, Sir, in a speech whichSit' John Downer made, only a few days ago,he says that Federation is the greatest questionin Australia to-day. It is not so very longsince that we had Sir Heary Parkos lhesre, andeven the Premier was carried away by theeloquence of the "grand old snan" onthis ques-tion of Federation, and gave us to understandthat ho was in favour of it. If we read hisspeech at Newcastle, and other speecheswhichhe made hero before that, ho made us believehe was strongly in favour of Federation. Yethe comes to this House now, and puts it in themouth of the Acting-Governior that ho is notat all in favour of Federation.

THE Punnsa&: No, no!Mu. ILLINOWORtTE: That is what the

Speech says.THE Pnia, No, no;j read it correctly.Mu. LLLINGWORTI{: I am quoting the

Speech.TuE PnnREIcE: Quote it then, The Speech

does not say so.Ain. ILLINGWORTH: That is how I

understand it. I think, Mr. Speaker, I had thepleasure of meeting you for the first tune at adinner in the Queen's Hall of the ParliamentHouses of Victoria, when this question ofFederation was discussed. On that occasion

AddessinRepy.El.JUL, .~9.JAddress-ia-&epli. S9

the Bon. James Service said there was a lionin the path of these colonied federating, andthat lion was the question of the Customstariffs, and that Federation must either killthat lion or that lion must kill Federation.At a later dinner, at which I think you, Sir,were also present. Sir Henry Parkes said thatthe lion was only a poor harmless oppossum,that could be easily snared out of the way. Iventure, however, to suggest that the lion is

still in the path. I venture to suggest thatthe real question upon which Federation willhave to be fought is the question of the Tariff.lBnt 1 do think, inaismuch as I beieve we areprepared to make seome sacrifices in order tomnake Australia a united nation, it is uselessfor us in this colony to attempt to arrest thetide of public feeling in that direction. It isuseless for us, with our little handful of peopleout here in the West, to suppose that we canput hack the clock which is going to strika thehour of the birth of a great Australian Em-pire! It cannot be done. Federation, is inthe air. Federation, as Sir John Downerecently said, is the great question for Aus-

tralia to-day:- and it will be carried outwhether Western Austraiia consents or not.

MRl. A. Fonnes8T: We do not want it yet,at any rate.

Ma. lLLINGWORTH . As to the questionof whether weowant it here or not, the dufficnityin our way will probably be the difficultyreferred to boy Mr. Service--the tariff question.But I venture to suggest that this questionof the tariff is not so much of a lion, after all,as some people imagine. True, we reeive alarge amount of revenue through the Customs,but it is not wholly upon goods that aremaannfactunred or produced in the othercolonies. More than half of this revenue, Iventure to suggest, is derived fromn goods thatare first imported into the other colonies, andthen sent here. If that be so, inasmuch as theidea and intention of Federation is inter-colonial free tradeand free interchange ofproducts between the various coloties andprotection against the outside world, thenthis bugbear of the tariff is not such a greatobstacle as some people imnagine. Most of thegoods that come to -us, even from SouthAustralia or from Victoria, New South Wales,or Tsiunainia, are goods that have been firstimported to those colonies from other countries,and these goods will stil have to pay duty ;so that all we should lose (as regards thisquestion of the tariff) would be the duties in

respect of goods which are the products of theother colonies. It is time, I submit, that thesewretched fiscal barriers were broken down.It is tim e that we cherished a proper patrioticfeeling with regard to the potentiality,of an Australian united nation. What wasSwitzerland before the federation of hercantons ? What was Amenrica, before her Statesbecame united ? W hat was Can3ada before theStates of that Dominion federated P And whatwill Australia be until her Colonies unite inthe bonds of Federation ? Simply four or fiveseparate proviaces, each raising barriersagainst the other, nd demanding a toll fromits neighbours. I admit there are difficultiesin the way, but what great question was eversettled without meeting with difficultiesP Thesattitude I want to see this House and thisMinistry assume towards Federation is not tomeet the ndvanues made by other colonies inthis direction with a rebuff, but to be preparedto extend one hand to them and to say to themathat we are ready to join them upon an equit-able boass Depend upon it, when the othercolonies are prepared to take this step, thewisest position for this Parliament and this

country to assumei is to be ready to makea sucha promise. Instead of the Ministry beingadverse to Federation they should he in favorof it., so lon g as we can obtain it on equ itableterms. If it be so- I do not think it is, hut ifit be so that the people of this colony are notyet prepared for Federation, then the soonerthe leaders of public thought endeavour toeducate them to this grand standard thebetter, and we expect the Forrest Ministry tobegin to teach them their first lesson, insteadof throwing cold water upon the movement,as is done in this Speeeh. The next thing weare told is that our rilways are paying theirway. That is absolutely the heat piece of newsin the whole Speech,--if it is to he credited.CAN Rew Marsia: Question.) My friendquestions it. So do 1f. 1 very much questionit. If the figures were properly analysed, andthe various items charged to their properclaims, I doubt very much if it can he shownthat our railways pay as we ars told they do. Ido not believe it. I have a lively recollection ofthe Loan Bill of last session, a Loan Bill whichamongst other things was to borrow money tobuild a washstand at the Fremantle railwaystation. Oh, I have not forgotten it. Toborrow money in England, to build a wash-stand at the oldest station we possess l I tellyou I have not forgotten it, and I am afraidl

Address-in-Reply. ri JULY, 1895.]

90 Addi-css-in-.llply.EASM t.jdrs-i-

that a good many items of that character havebeen debited to loan moneys that ought tohave been debited to the profit and lossaccountof our railways, and that this is one way inwhich our railways are said to pay. I hope itis not so. Ii shall rejoice greatly if it turnsout to be that our railways have really reachedthis standpoint, that they not only pay theirworking expenses, bitt also the interest andsinking fund upon the loans raised for theirconstruction. If that is so, I think themanagement of our railways is deserving ofthe very highest credit. If it be proved thatsuch is actually the ease, it will go a long wayto do away with the hundred and one ob-jections that are raised against the management of this department. If it can be demon -strated that our railways have really reachedsuch a standard that they not only pay theirworking expenses but also provide the interestand the sinking fund upon the capital expend-ed in their construction, then we have reacheda standard which no other Australian colony,except perhaps South Australia, has beenable to reach yet. I only hope it is true. Thenext thing we are told in this Speech is thatthe Government intend to move the RailwayWorkshops from Fremantle to the MidlandJunction. I anm not surprised at it. In thespeech I made in the course of the debate onthe A ddross-in-Reply last year, I told theHouse that the Government had purchased apiece of land for that special purpose, and Iwas told it was very good land for the purpose,and for a dozen other purposes. I have takenthe trouble since the House last met, to godown tolookat the other proposed site, atRockyBay-a site that has been sneered at. Now[Cam not going to speak of the part of RockyBay that hus been cleared. There has beensome misapprehension on this point. Tihatpiece of ground that is levelled down and is nowin the hands of the engineer in charge of thebreakwater, is not the piece of ground I am re-ferring to, but a piece of ground to the nor'-west, up towards the line, where there are up-wards of 10o acres of land that can easily beobtained by the Government, and which caneasily he levelled, and I take it thait 50 acres ofland would be sufficient for the purposes ofRailway Workshops for the next fifty years.The whole of that other land, which is nowbeing levelled down, can be used for storagepurposes. I say this: if the Government aregoing to take these Workshops to the M1idlandJunction they are going to perpetrate the

greatest political job that ever has been per-petrated in this colony, They are going to dothis for some purpose which I cannot under-stand at present, bitt I appeal to all sensiblemen whether the removal of these workshopsto this site is desirable, expedient, or ad-vantageous in auy way that will justify suchremoval. Ucere we have at the present time acrossing at WiIlia u:-street, in the centre of theCity of lerthi, with eight lines of rails alreadyacross it ; here we aire, also, with only one lineof rails between Fremantle and Perth, and itis now proposed to bring the whole of the goodsand material which will be required for rail-tray purposes, right through the city,and acrossthat William-sitreet, crossing, wvhic~h is alreadya menace Lo human life. What will it be withadditional traffic caused by the haulage ofmaterial for the Railway Workshops ? Whatwill it be with the mass of goods carriedover it, and that will have to be carried overit, if these shops are placed at the MidlandJuaction P What also w ill become of the singleline of rails between here ad Fremantle ?Already the volume of business done requiresthe duplication of this line, but it theseshops are removed to Guildford, and all therailway material is it to be hauled 22 miles in-land, we shall require something more that aduplication of this line. I am not an engineer,nor do I pose as an engineer, but it strikes inethat the Government will require two sets ofmetals for themselves, to carry their own rail-way material, which means the constructionof 44 miles of railway for the express putrposeof these Workshops, and it will mean the haul-age of thousands of tons of material over 22miles, which there is no necessity for. Isthere any reason beneath the sun why such athing should be done ?

THE HON. W. E. MAnmioN; Not the slightest.Mat. I LLINGWORTH Certainly not.

There is no reason whatever for it, beyond thefact that Mr. Affison Smith has recommendedthis site ; and I venture to say that Air.Allison Smith did not recommend this siteuntil the Oovernment had beught the land.We know how these things are done. I do saythis, that a grave and serious mistake is pro-posed to he made by the Government, and, ifthese Workshops are taken to the MidlaudJunction, the time is not far distant whenthey will have to be brought hack again, at theexpense probably at £l10,OOC to this country.I know my f rielnd, the leader of the Opposition.does not agree with we in this mutter, because

ASSB.hiul'y.j Address-in-Replqj

Address-i n-Reptij. [I JULY, 189&.) AdA rcss-in-Repip. 91

he was a member of the Commission that oncerecommended this site. Nor will my friend onthe right (Mr. Ijoton) be in accord with me,because he also was at member of that Com-mission. However neees. ary it may be toremove those Workshops from theirpresent site, no earthly reason has beenshown in this House why they should be takento a ste that will necessitate all the railwaymaterial required for these shops to be takenright through the streets of the city. Theremay be some reasons, as I said when the sub-jecit wait under discussion last year. and I sayit again now-there may be soine reason forremoving these Workshops from their presentsite. In fact, they must be removed. That isimperative. Hat it is not imperative that theyshould be removed to the Midland Junction. Isay that again, and I do call Upon the Ministryand upon the members of this House toseriously and earnestly consider this question.It is not a party qunestion, because the Govern-menitthemselves sayit isnot so. It is agoodjob perhaps for the Government that it is nota party question. Members are therefore freeto act upon their own judgment in this matter,and I ask them to consider what is involved incarrying the whole of the future traffic in con-nection with these workshops right throughthe streets of the city. That is the mainobjection I see to the whole thing. I am notspeakinig in the interests o' Fremantle. I amnot conni~cted in any way with Fremantle.N,-r am I speaking in the interest of any pal-ticular district. I do not stand uip in my placehere to argue questions of this kind in theinterest of any particular district. I am look-ing at it as a national question. I mnay bemistaken, but that is how I view the ques-tion, and I say in all seriousness and ie allearnestness that the Government, if they per-sist in their intention of removing these,works to the Midland inaction, will commita huge blunder, and do a piece of work thatwill have to be undone, sooner or later, atgreat expense to the country. For this rea-son, I appeal to this House not to have itdone. The next matter brought tip in thisSpeech is the proposed establishment of abranch of the Royal Mint. Now. I supposethat, being a representative of a gold-miningdistrict, I ought to sujpport this proposal ofhaving a Mint in Western Australia. Well, Ifind that Queensland heads the list of Austin-ban Colonies lust year for the output of gold,with its 695,000 ounces. Yet Queensland has

no Mint. Sydney has a Mint, but I am~ notquite sure it has ever paid its way. I do notthikin it has. [AN RONy. lEsnss: The SydneyMint pays.] Possibly; bnt the other onedoesn't, nor is it likely to. I an alluding toMelbourne. In the greatest but one of thegold-yielding colonies-for Queensland, itsI say, took the lead, for the first time, lastyear-the Mint does not pay. Yet it is nowproposed to start one in Western Australia.I like the idea in one sense. There is a grandshow of hopefulness about it. There is some-thing expansive and noble in the conception.It says, in effect, that this colony of ou rs is

oing to be the largest gold-producing colonyof the group, if not of the whole world; and Iare glad to think that may be true. But Ido say this: we must be prepared, if we acceptthe views of the Government in this matter,-we must he prepared fer a distinct financialloss. A Mint will not pay. The question ofprestige, perhaps, is worth something.-Whether itis worth whatthis Mint will costuisanother question; bitt I suppose we shall havean opportunity of discussing this questionlater on. Another matter touched upon inthe Governor's Speech is the proposed reduc-tion of railway rates. Well, if they are goingto reduce the rates on the Southern Cross andthe Mullewat Railways, I am with them. ifthey intend to bring down the present penalrates upon the goldfields' lines, and reducethem to the level of the rates charged uponour other lines, [ shall be with them. But ifthey are going to continue the penal rates onthe Southern Cross and the Mullewat Railways,and reduce the rates on the lines to Hunburyand other districts in that direction-if theyare simply going to reduce the railway ratesfor produce upon what my friend on my rightcalls "spud " railways, then I think this Houseshonld carefully consider the proposal, because,if our railways are paying now-which is adoubtful question, to my mind-but, if theydo pay. I should like to see the Commissionerof Railways keeping them in that condition.But that won't be the case, if he lends himselfto this principlo: that because a district hasproduce which the settlers cannot bring tomarket and make it pay, they therefore shouldhave their railway fireights almaost free. If hecommits himself to that principle he will goastray, and hc will find that his railways, ifthey pay now, will not pay by-and-bye. Thatprinciple has been tried in the other colonies,but what has been the consequence 9F1Their

02 Addrcss-in-Bepiy. [ASSEMBLY.) .Address-in-Reply.

railways havebeen overloadedandbronight intoa ruinous condition, and the very people theywore intended to help have not been helped.If the producer, whether it be of " spuds" (asmy friend here suggests) or of wool. cannotproduce it and bring- it to market and inake itpay, without these trifling reductions which theRailway Department are going to give him, Ianafraid lie will not succeed when thesesmall reductions have been made in the rail-way rates. Something else is required.

AN HON. MEMBERn: It will be a help.Ma. LLLINGWORTH : It may be a help.

but it will only be to help them to linger outa miserable existence. The next thing weare promised in the Speech is a Mlunicipal Bill.We dealt with that Bill lust session, and as itis coming before us again, I need not now dwellupon it. Then we tire promised an amendmentof the law relating, to gold-urining,-ameasurewhich members on this side and on the othersideot the House have most strongly advocated.I hope it will be a good Bill. I hope it will,amongst other things, reduce the fee for aminer's right to 10s., and that there will be aconsiderable reduction in other fees. I alsohope it will have a provision that people willnot have to pay for surveys before they gettheir work done; and a lot of other things.We may take it for granted, I think, that itwill be a go d Bill. [ believe the Ministryhave carefully enquired into the whole subjectduring the recess, and that it will be a goodand useful measure. If it is, 1 shall supportit. T always support their good things.I would always support the mlinistry ifthey were right. I am only sorry they arcnot often right. If they show themselvesa good Ministry, I shall always support them.I lannot an office-seeker. I nannot concernedin the question of the coming in or the goingout of Ministries. Some meaobers may be. Ifthey are, let them try it. In any Speech thatI make in this House, or in any vote I give, Ishall not be influenced by any consideration asto whether Ministers stand or fall. If a voteof mine happens to turn the balance in puttingany Ministry out, I shall be prepared to do myduty in ay position which the country callsme to. But as for seeking office, or giving avote for the mere purpose of putting a Minis-try out, I am not going to do it, in tnis Houseor in any other Parliament. There is oneother point in the Speech-for which I commendthe Ministry, and that is their promise tobring in a Bill dealing with the regulation

and inspection of mines. TIhis is anexceedingly necessary and important Bill.Already accidents have occurred in ourmnines, and the deeper these mines go downthe larger wvill be the mnmber of accidents wemay expect;j and I hope that drastic measureswill lie used for the protection of men engagedin these perilous undertakings. We nextcome to another measure of importance to thefuture of this country, and that is the pro-muised amendinent of the Electoral Act.While on this point, I ask the attention ofthe House to a few figures which indicate thenecessity forna rpforns of the present Act, andwhich I have taken from the Registrar-General's own office. I find there were in thiscolony on the 31st March last, 57,574 males.I exclude females because we have no femalestiff rage here yet. Out of these 57,574 males,about 88,000 are over 21 years of age. That isto say, there are 38,000 adults who ought tobe voters, and I think I may say that about20,000 of these are upon our three principalgoldfields. These three goldfields' electorateshave three representatives in this Houme, andthey have 1,162 voters all told. So that outof 20,000 men on our goldfields who ought tobe voters, there are only 1,162 who possessthat privilege, and these 20,000 have onlythree members representing them in thisHouse. I regret there is not, in connectionwith this promised amnendmsent of the Elect-oral Act, a declaration in favour of the re-distribution of seats, and I hope that beforethe session closes the Ministry will see theirway clear to remedy this great defect..But to return to these figures. Ifind there are only 13,384 voters onrolls in the whole colony. That is, when thisHfous was elected. We have 20,000 adults onthe goldfields alone, yet we have only 18,384enfranchised voters in the whole colony. Themembers of the present Ministry sit forelectorates representing an aggregate of 552voters, and they all had a walk over. Theyhave never once had to contest a seat. TIhernare eleven other members in this House (one-third of the whole number) who in theaggregate represent 887 voters, whereas myfriend the hop., member for Perth represents947 voters. Surely there is something wrongabout that. Eleven members representingonly 887 clect~r, and one representing 947electors IThen I find there are 17 members in

this House-a clear majority-who sit for3,519 voters, and every one of these 17 members

Addns-inRepy [1JUL, 185.]Address-in-Repy. 93

may be relied upon to support the Govern-mnent. A clear majority in this House, whomay all be relied upon to support theGovernment, only represent in the aggregate3,519 voters. With these 17 members, and thefour Ministers having seats in this House, wehave 21 members (or nearly two-thirds of thewhole House) representing in all only 4,071voters. These are the nmajority who ril thecountry, and who control the expenditure ofthis million of money which the 80,000 peopleof the colony were taxed to produce duringthe past year. These 80,000 people are payingtaxes, and those who vote the money, onlyrepresent 4,071 voters. These are facts.Members may smile, but they are stern facts,and they bear upon the question thatit is time we had a redistribution ofseats, as well as electoral[ reform. t say itis high time there was a redistribtion of seats,when we look at these figures. I hope in anycase that the amended Electoral Act will atany rate benefit in somne measure the thous-sands of hard-working and honest mueu whoare toiling to make this country great andprosperous. Surely these men have a right te avote, and they ought to get at vote, and I hopethe Ministry will give them a vote, Of coursethey will all vote for the Ministry. The Pre-mier tells us they are all well fed, wellclothed, and contented; and, that being so,how can they do otheiwisethan vote for the pie-seat MinistryF The Premier has told us morethanance that he is in favor of manhood suffrage,and that he is not afraid to trust the people.Let uis have some practical evidence of thefaith that is in himi. Let him give the peoplea vote -the people who are tucking this countrygreattand prosperous. Let thema have a voicein the administration of the country. Lectthem have sonic voice in the dispcual of thetaxation which they themselves raise. Nextwe come to another question-tariff reform.

I am surprised att this Government stating inthis House that they do not intend to repealthe Stockr Tax. TI there is one thing the Min-istry t ught to do they ought to be prepared torepeal this tax. But there is not ah word aboutit in this Speeh, though the Premiertold us the other day the Govern-mient did not propose to repeal it.The Premier thinks, I suppose, there is nonecessity for repealing it. He says the peopleare well-fed and contented, though they arepaying 10d. a lb. for rump steak! Has itcome

to this, that we have gone back to the Roman

period, of "bread nd jam F?" Will theProuder, with his majority Of 17 at his back,rapresenting 4,071 voters, tell the people of thiscolony that they ought to be happy and con-tented while the price of meat is as I havestated? Or will he tell the people of thiscolony that they ought to be content ;whenonly 13,000 out of 88,000 of them who areentitled to a vote possess at vote ?

AN Moo Msmxs Why don't theyregister P

MR. ILLLNGWORTH: How can theyregister under such an Act as we havenow in force ? A man has in some casesto be about six years mn the colony beforehe can get on the roll. When we havethe question of repealing the export duty onpearl shells and sandalwood, which we havealready disposed of. I give the Governmentcredit for bringing in that Bill. Thea wrecome to the proposal to abolish the leclesi-asticidl Grant- a proposal which has mny com-plete, sympathy. I am quite prepared, as I be-lieve other members are, to be liberal with theChurches, butlI do think it is time we got ridof this objectionable grant, and f hope theGovernmnent will make one vote of it Find bedone with it. We have plenty of nioney, thePremier says ; therefore let us; pay thin debt,if it is a, debt, and see the end of it. There isoe other point to which I must take -ax-ception, referred to in this Speech, and that isthe survey of the Bridgetown Railway, whichthe Government has undertaken during therecess. I am not going to Speak against therailway; that is niotthe point. We shall talkabout that at the right time. But I do say itwas an improper thing for the Ministry, dur-ing the recess, to continue the survey of thisBridgetown Railway, whee they knew that amajority in another place absolutely dee'aredagainst the railway last session, and -whenthey must he aware of the constitutional diffi-culties with which we were confronted overthe same railway-difficulties which nearlylauded us in a very serious and critical posi-tion. Yet, while Parliament was in recess,the Ministry took upon themselves to continuethe survey of this railway, well knowring itwas caculated to cause friction between thetwo Houses, and to bring about a stateof things we ought to very muchregret. I hope that members in anotherplace wvill have the good sense to passover this indiscretion on the part of theGovernment. liut it was an indiscretion, -all

Address-in-Reply 11 JULT, 1895.)

94 Address-in-Repiij. [ASSEMBLY.] Address-i n-BeptV.

the same.-though I trust it isan indiscretionthat will not occur with any future Govern-ment that may come into power. I do not sup-pose I shall live to see any other Governmentin power except the Forrst Government. Idonot expect it. Nothing will shift them. Thereis arother question of considerable importanceto the City of Perth and to other towns of thecolony-the question of sanitation. I do notintend to occupy the time of the [louse mannyininutes further. nor to go into the question ofsanitation. But I would point out again thatI believe the Government would save somehundreds of thousands of pounds to thiscountry, and ninny valuable lives, if they tookthe trouble to investigate the Liernur systemof sanitation. Deep drainage could be dis-pensed with if that system were adopted, as Ipointed out lat session. if Perth is to waituntil deep drainoge is introduced, T san afraidthere will be hundreds of lives sacrificedbefore it is accomplished. Why not adoptthis Liernur system which has proved sosuccessful in Europe, and which could beintroduced here at far less cosit to thecountry than any system of deep drainage.So much for what is contained in theGovernor's Speech. I will trespass on thetime of thefHouse only for a moment wbile Irefer to what in my opinion ought to havebeen in the Speech-the Ministry's sins ofomission. First of all there ought to havebeen something said upon the question ofEduction. I say distinctly the present educa-tional system of this colony is a dishonour to it.']heme are no high class institutions, there areno cil logos or universities here availablefor the youth of the colony, and we ought tosee that the standard of oar educational systemnis raised to its highest possible degree. I amnot speaking of one side of the question or theother at present, but I say the children of thiscolony ought to receive a good system of edu-cation, and the Government ought to take thequestion up, and, the system ought to be anational one,-fmre, secular and compulsory.But the Government seem to be afraid to fucethe question. Why ? Never in the history ofParlia at has a Government had the advan-tages which this Government possesses. I'heyare absolutely secure.

Mn. SiinrsoN: They may die.Ala. ILLINOWORTR: Die! 'rho Forrest

Ministry will never die. They only ren-struct. They have 17 members (which is ams~ority) who will vote with them under a],

most all circumstances. T em not quite sturewhether they will all 1,e prepared to do so onthiseducation question, but almost on all sub-jects they may rely upon that majority. Theyhave a splendid opportunity in bringing inliberal and broad legislation into this House,legislation which would beto theirlhonor for -alltime, and legislation which it weaker Ministrywould have the utmost difficulty in carryingthrough. Now while things are flourishing.while the conmunnity is at peace, while thefinances of the country are everything wecould desire, and while the Ministry have thepower in their hands,-aiow is thu time theyought to deal with the great questions whichthe country requires thenm to deal with. Theyhave the power to do so, and they have theability to do so-I will say that; hut they havenot the inclination. No Ministry will ever be insuch a good position to deal with these greetquestions as are the present Ministry. NoMinistry will be in such a good position to dealwith this education question, andl. regret theyhave not, up to the presentlbad the courage toface it. I hope that, if not this session then atthe next Session, they Will nettle it for all time.Then there is another question, which, thoughperhaps not of so much importance to thewhole country, is still of considerable import-anice to a large number, and that is the ques-tion of Civil Service reform. Of course I aaware that we have a Commission sitting, andwe hear somec very strange things about thatCommisson. This, however, is not the timeto discuss those things. But we have heardsonme very strange ruinours, about that Com-mission, of ways that are devious and dark,and of things that we do not at allcomprehend. But I think the Ministry,while they are strong ought to bringin some measure dealing with this(luestion of Civil Service reform. The Service,we know, is not in a satisfactory condition.Look at the reports of the Auditor-General.Look at the condition of things at Coolgardie,and the vast amount of money irregularlydealt with in those parts. Look at the num-ber of irregularities that have occurred in theRailway Department, in connection with thefunds of the dcpartnent,-all of which affordample proof that things are not going onsatisfactorily in the Civil Service of thecolony. We also know that members of theService themselves are not content, and can-not be content, under the present system.Therefore, I tr-ust that the Ministry, if not

Addessin-eyl. 1 JLY,189.1Addres-inReFZy. 95

this session, will, later on, deal with this ques-tion also, while they are able to deal withit as a strong Ministry, with a large majorityat their backs, and they are in at position todeal with such reforms. They cannot bieafra id of being defeated,-certeinly not in thisRouse, until at any rate we have a generalelection, and perhaps not tlmnl. I am notanxious myself to see them defteated. I havenot the slightest anxiety upon the question.All I want is good Government, and I don'tcare who arc the Government. Th-ere aresomet questions which I do earnestly urge theMinistry to consider. Amongst others I havealready mentioned is the question which haslargely agitated the other colonies-the rela-tion of capital and labour. Now is the timefor dealing with such questions here, whilethings are quiet. We all hope that atstime goes on we shetll have importantmining industries in our midst, and thou-sands of men employed on our goldfields,and, sooner or later, the question of strikes willbecome a serious question here as in othercountries. Now then is thle time for theMinistry to deal with such questions, wheneverything is favorable to their solution, andthey may prevent the distressing state ofthings that have been witnessed in the othercolonies. Thbe present Ministry are strongenough to deal with it, or to carry anythingthey like. A gentleman of say acquaintancein this City Said to ice the other day :-"If theForrest Ministry brought in at Bill to enactthat what hasi hitherto been black shouldhenceforth bevwhite, and that what has hithertobeen white shall in thle future be black,they would bie able to carry it, with themajority they have ait their back to supportthem." That is wha~t this gentleman told me.I do not say so mnyself, but it was said to methe other day.

Mn. A. FoRRaS'r Name.MR. ILLINGWORTLI: I will not name. Hie

was an intelligent and honorable gentlemen, amuau of education and high culture. Thcnthere is another question I should like to re~ferto. It relates mainly to the Premier's Depart-ment. Some time agouastrong aniti-Asiaticagitation took place in this colony, and publicmeetings, attended by soine 2,000 men in Perth,and about 1,600 mon at Fremant!e, were heldprotesting against Chinese and Asiatic immi-gration, and a deputation was appointed towait on the Premier, who refused to receivethe deputation. (The PaRrsa:u No, no.)

I understood so. With regard to thissurplus revenue, of which we are allvery glad to bear, the Ministry havenot told us yet what they intend doing withit. I amn going to made a suggestion to them:lot them make a railway with it from PortHeadland to Marble Bar, so as to include theseother goldfields in our railway system, Hpeis au opportimity for the Ministry if theywant to embark upon a reproductive publicwork. I differ with the Ministry, however, iftheir idea is that this surplus revenue shouldbe expended on reproductive works only. Itis no borrowed money. t agree that ljqrrowedmoney should be expended on reproductiveworks, but sur-plus revenue should beapplied to workrs which are not noe-cessarily reproductive, lint which of courseare necessary and useful works. Dealing withall these questions as they stand before us Iregret that the present Ministry, with thepowers they possess, have not had the courageto face that liberal legislation which thisHouse and the country desire. They look atthings from too narrow a point of view. Theyimagine -that the few electors they re-present, and the few people who they meetfrom time to time, represent the true feelingof the country. But that is not the case, and,if this Ministry will not take upon itself to dothis necessary work which the country is look-ing for, the time will come--perhiaps not dur-ing my lifetime-but the time will comewhen this country will put in otheormen to do the work. With their majority,with their powers, and with their experience-and I suppose few uen canl surpass the Premiierin his experience of the requirements of thecountry-with all these advantages, I say thePremier of thle present Ministry ouight to beable to face any difficult question of legisla-tion, and he ought to be able to deal with suchquestions in at htoad and liberal spirit. WhatI call for ftow the Ministerial henches to-

night is that these things, some of which havebeen owitted from the Governor's Speech. butwhich the country desire-such as the re-distribution of seats, a proper Education Ac t,a proper Electoral Act, at good Mining Act, P,good Mines Act, a meware dealing with earlyclosing, and some measure dealing with capitaland labour, as well ats an effort to advance thegreat question of Federation, which shouldconvert these colonies into a great nation inthese Southern Seas-I ask them while theyare strong, while the finances ars flourishing,

[I JULY, 1895.1Address-in-Reply.

96 Address-ia.Ropiy. [ASSEMBLY.] Addressin.Replv.

and while all the circumestanceafre favourable,I ask them to approach and deal with thesegreat questions in a broad and liberal spirit.

MR. COOKWORTHY: 1 have come to jointhe chorus-

AN. HoN. Mana: Hallelujah!MR. COOKWORTHY: The chorus of con-

gratulation which has greeted the statementsput forward by the Ministry in Bis Ex-cellency's Speech. At the same time, I donot intend to go into ecstacies, though Iagree with the honorable member forNaunine in not wishing to see the ForrestMinistry go out of offie, and that is thereason why I support them. I am Dot pre-pared to impute all the success this colonyhas met with to the action of the Ministry,but I do say that the present Premier has metwith signal success. and hats shown muchjudgment and discretion in the managementof public affairs. That being the case, whyshould we not praise him when praise ishonestly due? Why should we not say tohim, " Well done! thou good and faithfulservant." It is very easy to find fault. Any-one can pick a hob in another's garment.But it is only right that praise should beaccorded to those who deserve well of theircountry. I certainly think Ilis Excellency'sSpeech is a very satisfactory statement ofaffairs, though I certainly an, not going intoheroics about it. It is something more than"length without breadth," as one hon,. mein-

her has described it. It is characterised bycommon sense, which is whiat the countrywants. As we have an overflowing revenue, itis, perhaps, only right that there should becertain reductions made in the Customisduties, and the proposed reductions will, Ithink, be of great benefit to the colony atlarge. Reference has, been made to the StockTax, and it has been said ,"Why not repealit?" I ask, why not repeal the duties oaagricultutral produce P Why not repeal theduties on chaff, corn, flour, and all thethe rest of such articles ? Are you prepared todo that? (An hon. member: Yes.) Thenyou way as; well have the courage of your con-victions, and propose it. If you repeal theseduties you way as well shut up the Southernline and all your agricultural railways, aadget rid of the small farmer who is trying hardto make a home for his family. We know verywell that without some protection the farmersof this colony would not be able to exist. itis all very well to talk about the high prices

that rule for certain articles of consumption-meat for instance, and to cry out for a repealof the Stock Ta. 'The producer does Dot getthe benefit of these high prices. What doesthe Stock Tax amount to, after all ? The smallfraction of a penny.

AN. HON. Mxnns: Then what is the goodof it?

Ma. COOK WORTHX:; Because, as, I havesaid, the farmers ciunot do without someamount of protection. They would not be ableto exist otherwise. As I have already said,you must not run away with the ideas for onemoment that it is the producer gets 10d. a lb.for his beef, or anything like it. If he gets3d. a lb., it is s much as he gets. It isthe butcher and the middleman who get thebenefit of the high prices. I am not blamingthe butchers. They do like we all do, thebest they can for themselves. If you want toremedy the present stale of things theremedy rests with yourseives. You masthave eo-operation; you will then havecheap meat. The fault lies with the peoplethemselves. If they adopt the co-operativesystem amongst themselves, and endeavour tokeep it u[, they will have their meat at areasonable price. But as for Freetrade, Ido not think the colony would care for it. Ibelieve I have the common sense of the colonyat my back, when I say that the people hereare not prepared for Freetrade. As forFederation, well, I don't think it wasvery much use for mnembers to go fromthis colony to Hobart to atten4 theFederal Council. except, perhaps, thatit afforded then, a very pleasantouting. But this colony, at present at anyrate, is not prepared for Federation. Whenthe proper time wimes, no doubt Federationwill come with it. It is said that withFederation we should have intercolonial frqe-trade. I am afraid the only benefit we wouldget from that would be that our colony wouldbe inundated with the worthless products ofVictoria and other colonies. If We go in forfreetrade, let us have freetrade with thewhole world, the same as the mother country,and not intercolonial freetrade alone, andhave all the scrubby products of our neigh-bours poured into our markets. The Govern-ment, I am glad to find, promise to make areduction in ou= railway ratesl. This will begood news to our farmers. Those who live ata distance from a market know very well that[lie present freights press very heavily upon

Ad ress 471 -Replyj. -1 JULY, 185 .] Adidress-in-Replqj. 97

pif ducers. 'There arc other thing-s besidos areduction of freight rates wvhich [ hope wvillbe introduced in connection with our railways,one of which is a better and simpler classifica-tion of goods. At present there are sevendifferent classes of goods, and, when you geta consignment note, you never know underwhich head to clssify your goods. I alsohope something will be done to acceleratethe speed on our railways. It has taken me8 1., hours to come 150 wiles. Five andfifty years ago I have done hundredsof wiles in India in the same time.I know railways where they can get nearlyaL thousend wiles in 12 hours and stop on theroad, but these are railways in the hands ofprivate companies ; they are not Governmentlines. I amn sorry the Government has notshown more firmness in carrying out theirpublic works during the recess. I am notgoing to commit myself, but T have one thingto say, however, with respec;t to what the bon.member for Nannine said just now. Jito saidthat thore would have to be something like12,000 tons of goods carried every year throughPerth from Frenmantle to the 11idlund Junc,-tion. Well, supposing there are 12,000 tonsof goods, does ho expect they will all remainat F rcnxantle ? Will they not have to bebrought through Perth, and be distributed allover the colony. If you have the workshopsat the Midland Junction, allI these locomotivesandi trucks will in duo course have to be re-paired, :ind then they will nut come throughrerth. Do hon. members underitandP These12,000 tons of goods would, it is said. bie landedat Frenmantle, a~nd would, of necessity, have tothrough Perth tot be distributed all over thecolony firomm Coolgardie: to Jlusselton. Ido notthink there is munch in the argument used bythe hon. member for Nannine, when hesaid that these goods and rolling stockwould have to pass through Perth,for he was evidently advocating the vested in-terests of Preman tle, which puts mu inimind ofa tale of Sidney Smith. Through the vigilanceof the police, the highway muon of HoituslowHeath were to he pub a stop to, but they plead-ed that their vested interests, a is Majesty'ssubjects, were being interfered with, and theyshould be considered. It is the same thingnow, but I would point out we have to considerthe interests of the whole colony- TheEngineer-in-Chief, who is the official adviserof the Government, thinks it is in the interestof the colony that the workshops should lie re-

moved. Ho has said be has no particular biasin favour of one plame over another. He onlygives a professional opinion as to which heconsiders the better place, and consideringthat opinion has been given, and that it isbacked up by the findings of a Commission, theonly thing that surprises me is that theGovernment have not shifted the Workshopsbefore now, for it would have greatly reducedthe expenditure on the Government railways.With regard to this question;1 whose opinionought we to take, so long as we belipve in hisability and honesty, but that of the manwho has to carry on the work P He oughtto know the hest way and the best placeto do it, and he says the Workshopsought to go the Midland Junction.I have cume up here to vote for theAddress-iu-Reply. I have been called a votingmaczhine, but I am not ashamed of my vote,and shall continue to give it honestly andfearlessly. I agree with the hon. member forNannine in this, that I think there is no showof getting the Forrest'Minietry out.

TssE oN. W. E. MA RMIONt Mr. Speaker-Sir, I cannot expect to receive from the hen.members of this Rouse such a pleasant hearingas my hoin. friend who has just sat down, forI sun afraid moy remarks will be somewhat dry.nd possibly tedious, and may not interest theHouse very much. Much bas already beensaid by seine hon. memibers in alluding to theSpeech. Some have thought it necessary tomake an apology for the length of theirremarks, while others have stated they con-sidered it a waste of time to refer at anylength to the Speech. I must say that Iincline to the latter opinion, that there is Veryoften a very great waste of time in discussingthis Speech, inasmuch as the greater portionof the items dealtwith.in it have on future oc-casicas; to be brought before hon. memhers fortheir consideration, and can then be dealt within a better way ; although on the other hand,very often the freshness of the debate is muchremoved and lessened by the length of thereniarks that are made upon these variousitems. Still I akgree ulso somewhat with whatfell From the bion, member for Nannine, thatthere are occasions when the time of the Houseis saved at a late period of the session by theremarks mde by hon. mesmbers when speakingon the Address-ia-Reply. Sir, some hon.members have referred in items of disparart-ment, more especially members on the otl,. cside of the Rouse, to the tone of the Speech of

98 Address-ini-Repty. [AML. drs-aRpp

H is Excellency the Administrator. I may saythat I scarcely know what those hon menm-bers .xpected from the Government. It isvery well known to them, as it is to most of usthat we cannot expect at each succeedingsession of Parliament the Government torepresent to us a bill of rare, such oswe had presented to us last session,They cannot always be bringingforward Loan Bills for a million or a millionand a quarter, nor can they always be offeringto us extensives schemes of public worksWhich involve the expenditure of enorwnonisums of money. They cannot always be pre-senting such bills of fare as these, and if hon.members expect them to do so, they must besomewhat disappointed, for the Governmentmust occasional.ly fall a little short of placingbefore hon. gentlemen such enticing dishes aswe have had placed before us in previoussessions, At the same time bon. membersknow that in what appears in the Speech,Ministers amt referring to events, some ofwhich are past, some 'that ate now takingplace, whilst in other parts of the Speech theyrefer to matters which are contemplated, andto schemes that they intend to bring beforehon. members. Therefore, I do not think theGovernment or any other bon. imemaber sittingon either side of the House, need apologiseeither for the length or the breadth orthe Speech, as one member put it, de-livered to us this session. The progressand advancement of the Colony is a matterwhich I need hardly dwell upon. because weare all well aware of the great and generalprogress that has heen made. The finances.we are told, are in a thoroughly satisfactorycondition, and the revenue for the year willfar exceed the estimate. We all know thatthe progress of the colony must of necessitylead to an increased revenue iit is satisfactoryto know that our anticipations were not mis-taken. The credit of the Colony is at the pre-sent time in an excellent condition. It is afact that at no previbas period during theexistence of this colcay, or indeed ever beforein the history of the other Australian Colonies,was it possible to realise £220, on the Londonmarket for our 4 per cent.. debentures. Theyare now selling in London and in the oldWorld at from £2119 to.£120. I think theGovernment and the Colony are to be con-gratulated upon the fact that our financialposition is so good, and our credit so high all]over the world. Reference is made to the

Federal Council, and I shall touchupon that subject merely because I thinkit (Icairable to say a word or two on the princi-ple of lVoderation. I quite agree with whatfell from the hon. member for Perth, namely,that the question of Federation excites verylittle attention indeed in the other colonies,and certainly that is so in Western Australia.Throughout the whole of Australia it is cer-tainly not receiving the attention that it didseine years ago. I am also in accord. with thathon. member, when he says the time is notripe for us to consider thte question with aview to its future adoption,or that itsuits ourcircumstances to join with our sisters in otherparts of the Australian group, to form onegreat Australian nation. I am an Australianborn, a native of Western Australia, and allmy sympathies are with this great idea, batat the saute timec it seems to me the ideaof Federation is umore of a sentimental than apractical oae. I h-pe to live long enough, forI know I shall then live to a good old age, tosee this accomplished with great results.In no sense do I think it would bean immediate advantage to Western Aus-tralia, and that for many reasons whichare too long for mne to go into now. One isthat there is very little chance of any tariffbeing instituted that would suit the circums-stances or this colony. It would be to thedisadvantage of Western Australia, whilst itwould be of the greatest possible advantageto others mnembers of the Australian group toadopt Federation. now, According to theargument of the hon. member for Nannine,everything that is produced in the other &us-trulian Colonies would have to be admittedduty free. Hlow would that suit the manu-facturers of this colony.

Ma. MOnAN: Very Well.THiE Hfox. W. E]. MARMION: It might suit

the consumers of the colony for a short time,but would it suit the producing portion of thecolony ? The revenue of the colony would cer-Lainly suffer if everything produced or manu-factured. in rho other colonies were to be ad-mitted duty free. The duty on everythingfromn the outside world would be chargedas hitherto. This would be a directbonui to the other colonies as againstthe mother country. That is only sentiment,perhaps, but is it fair to treat the mothercountry, from whom wre have all sprung, inthat way? Is it fair to make a tariff ageinstall Rome-made articles, and distinctly in

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favour of our sister colonies? We might, per-haps, levy a tariff ,igainst other Europeancountries, indeed, all other countries in theworld, but why against the mother country,and in favour of the other Australian colo-nies? We know perfectly well that everymanufacture that could be started in WesternA ustralia would be strangled A its very birth,were the products of our neighbours admittedduty free. No industry in this colony couldlive, even for a limited period, and conse-qrtently I draw the attention of the consumerto this point. He mnight look upon the matteras a direct advantage, to be able to buy hisfood and clothes, and everything he needed,us cheaply as possible, but I would callhis attention to one fact, Unless he has,money to buy what he requires, cheapness is ofabsolutely no service tolhim. Unless you pro-vide himu with work he cannot secure whathe requires. But that is one, one of the thingsthat may be said on the subject of Federation,so far as the position of Western Australia isconcerned. One of the arguments used inthe other colonies is that we should federatefor purposes of defence, but suppose we didfederate for that purpose, and that there wasAn Australian force, how many of such menwould be available on this side of the Austin-lian continent? I venture to think thatshould any war take place, Western Australiawould have to take care of herself. Referencehas been made to Canada and other portions ofthe world, and we have been asked what theywere and what they did before Federation? 1consider the circumstances, are not an-alagans. Here we are on one side of a hugecontinent, with a very large tract of whatup to the present bus been considered unex-plored territory, aud With practically no landcommunication, and we might as well be inEurope so far as defence is concerned, as beconnected, as we aire, with the other parts ofAustralia.

Ma. Jas We could always fall back uponthe Darling Ranges.

Tus Hew. W. E. MAlION:- A very nicerange to fall back upon. 'Vhc honorable gentle-man might, but there are some people herewho would like to fight if there came thenecessity for it. Now, Sir, I think these argu-mients might be extended at great length andmight become tiresome, but I will not refer tothem further. I think the Government are tobe congratulated, and tbe country -too, upon

the fact of the completion Of the Mullewa andDonnybrook raLilways, and also the railway toBussolton. These are works that have beenconsidered necessary for a long time past, andthey have now become accomplished facts.We are told the Government have no reasonto regret their action, for these works are notonly proving useful, but are likely to become,if they have not already become, profitable.We are also told the railway from SouthernCross to Coolgardie is about to be started.We all know, that the contract has beenlet at a very low price, at so low aprice, indeed, that many who profess toknow something about the construction ofrailways, including some of the other tenderers,say that the contractors will be unable to carryont the work. I hope in the interests of thecontractors themselves, and in the interests ofthe colony, that these persons will be provedto have been in the wrong. The question pre-seats itself to my mind whethor we ought notin the future to give up constructing mnaeada-suited roads throughout the length and breadthof this colony, and go in for railways. If theycan be constructed at these low prices theywill he the cheaper in the long run, although,perhaps, a little more costly in the first in-stance. I believe this new contract will be agood test case us to whether or not railwa~yscan be constructed at these cheap rates.

Mn. OsonuEs What about the rollingstock?

TasE How. W. E. MABJ1ION: The questionof rolling stock, of course, hae to be con-sidered, but if the line is constructed at £500per muile less than the estimate given by theEngineer-in-Chief, or whoever has preparedthe estimate, then it leaves an extra £500 permile to be spent on rolling stock or to thegood of the colony. While on the subject ofrailways, I would like to say inoonnection withthe linefroin Southern Gross to Coolgardie, thatit is a, question for the Governiment to considerwhether they should not have a survey madeat once for an extension of that line to Ran-nan's, or to what is kuowil at the presenttime as Kalgoerlie. I have lately returnedfrom a visit to Kolgoorlie, and it seems to meonly right that the line of railway should beextended further to the eastward, though itmay not be due east and west, because it willtend to form another portion of that greattrunk line which must hereafter he con-structed right through to the border of SouthAustralia. With regard to the Collie coal-

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100 Address-in-Reply. [SE L3Alrs-nR$#

field and the deposit there, there is very greatdifference of opinion, though I think theobjevtions which some hen. members hadwere removed by the experience they had onthe occasion of a recent visit to the field. Wesaw-I do not wish to be funny-a coal seamor Something that seemed to he coal. Manywho had had their doubts before, bad theirdoubts removed on that occasion, and I believewhen the Government bring their Bill forward,they will have a large majority of members tosupport them. The progress ef the goldfieldshas been such as to almost startle one. It isonly about a month ngo that I returned froma pleasurable visit to the Coolgardie district.I had not been up during the 12 months pre-viously, and I found that a very great improve-meat had been made, not only in the town ofCoolgardie itself, but in the whole district.There wan a very large num ber of inhabitants,and there were signs of bustle and prosperityeverywhere ;and progress was evidently taok-ing place of every hand. All the authorities Imet or heard, or read of, agree that thereis a gneat future for the goldfields of WesternAustralia, and I think this Colony hasgreat reason to be thankful thatwe found gold, at a time when every-thing else, when our staple products, andall our industries, were at their very lowestebb. I do not know what we should have donehad it not been. for the discovery of gold, forit has changed everyting, and now theColony is on the full tide of prosperity. Popu-lation is increasing. Our imports have largelyicreased although, unfortunately, our exportshave not, exceptgold. These things, aided by (Ido not expect the hon. member for Nan nine toapplaud this sentiment) a wise and liberalGovernment, have foreed Western Australiaahead to the place it now holds-en unex-!Iinpled, unparalleled position in the historyof the Australian Colonies, probab'y if notin the history of any country in the world.Reference has been made to the AgriculturalBank, and souic hon. members have expressed

h le opinion it has not been worked as it shouldhave been. Of course, I know but very littleabout its operations, bat I have the pleasureof knowing its manager, and I believe inwaking the selection they did, the Govern-ment acted wisely and discreetly. My onlyregret in regard to that appointment is thatwe lost the prcsenee of Mr. Paterson from thisHouse, 'but if anything wouldd tend to maktechat less bearable it is the presence here of

such a gentleman as now represents the Mur-ray district. I think it would probably beweUl for the Government to consider, now thatmoney is at such a low rate of interest-

MEL. A. FORRxST: Are you Speaking fromexperience ?

THEHow. W. E.MARMION: lamanot speak-ing of my own experience, but now that the Go.vernment can borrow at such a low rate ofinterest, I think it well they should considerwhether they could not give the hardy pea-sants, as my friend calls them, some considera-tion by reducing their rate of interest, to say.5 per cent. a concession, that would be muchappreciated by a hard working class of people.There has been quite a chorus of congratula-tion on the progress of the Fremantle HarborWorks. So far as they are concerned they areprogressing rapidly, tnd as far as one canjudge, the work haR been carried out well andeconomically.

Ma. A. FORREST: flow do you know thatFTfr FloN. W. E. MAitMION : The hoii.

memiber for West Kiberley asks me how 1know. Well, I do not know that I am a judge,bat we are told by the Government, thalitisso,and I have sufficient faith in their veracity tobelieve that it is as they say.

lila. JArs : What do you think?THE RoNt. IV. E. MARMI ON: I will not say

what Ithink. As to the ordering of two otherdredges the Govarnmenthave done quite rightbecause if the work is to be carried out, thetooner it is done the lbetter, and the sooner weShall know if the work is going to be allit was represented it would be, end whether itwill do all we are told it will do. One thingwe shall know when it is completed, and whenall the money is spent, is whether Fremantlehas become a first-class Harbour, and a firstclass port of call, at which the Orient and P.and 0. Mail Steamers will call. If it is suc-cessful in doing that, then the Governmentand the country will have good cause for con-gratulation. Now, perhaps, it would he afitting time for me to say that the Clove i-mant.have promised they will use every endeavourto secure the 1. & 0., Orient and otherlarge ocean-going Steamers to cull at Fro-mantle, as soon as the Harbour is completed.

Personally, I aim very much obliged to thePremier for the efforts he is makting to inducethese Steamers to call at Fremantle, but some-how I have this feeling or opinion, that it will

Inot require any effort on the part -3f theB rewmier, or the Government that Sits here

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now, or that may be sitting here in the future,if Fremantle given them the fuidities whichwe are told it is going to do, to induce them tocall without much pressure being brought tohear. I am sure it will be to the in-terest of these companies to call atthe Port for the central portion ofthe colony, where the gretest quantity ofgoods is landed, and where the largest num.-ber of passengers should be landed, althoughat the present time such is not the case. Itwill not require much effort to bring this about.if the Harbour, when it is completed, meets allthe requirements which I state it should do.And I may add that I shall never be satisfieduntil it does give ample facilities, and amplesafety at all times, and in all sorts of weather,for the largest steamers afloat. Then theGovernnment, and the Engineer-rn-Chief whodesigned it, will he heartily congratulated,because it will be a success. We -ire bold thatthe dredger has been working in PrincetsRoyal Harbour and that good work bas beendone. I1 am very glad to hear it. I am pleased,as representing Frcmnantle, that the Govern-ment. have done what I would term a gracefulact, by allowing this dredger, which was intro-duced for the purposes of the FremantleHarbour Works, to remnain so long at Albany,and I think the Albany people should begratified and pleased, because they have atharbour which they themselves mre almost asfond of smiling at, as are the good folk ofSydney who were referred to by the hon.member for Nannine. We hear a lot of theharbour at Albany, but unfortunately theyhave not much else of which to boast of,ereept one thing. They have their representa-,tive in this House, who is an ornament to itand a most useful representative.

MrLEAKE: lHe must be coining over.Mr. zFiriroN:- There is plenty of room for

YOU ovrer hereD-The Hos. W. E. IrIARMION: I notice

there has been very little reference madeon the other aide of the House tothe Midland Railway. This used to bethe bete noir of so many hon. members, so longas the Government were in difficulties con-cerning it, and while they were endeavouringto bring that great work to a successful issue.So long as there were financial difficul ties aris-ing, so long as there was a chance of twittingthe members of the Government, members onon the other side never tired ofdishing up the Midland Railway to damnage

the Government. The Midland Railway hasnow been completed, and trains are nowrunning between the Midland Junction andGeraidton. In a short time the line will be

ihanded over to the Company, a Complete andgreat work, making a chain of railway comn-munication betwe-n Albany in the South andGeraldwnu and Mullewa in the No] Lb. Ithink this a fitting opportunity to say,speaking personally, that I felt very muchgratified the other day to receive from theGeneral Manager an intimation than onaccount of my position as a. member in thisHouse. I was entitled to a free pass on that

Iline. I had the pleasure of thanking the

Manager, because it was a compliment I liedno reason to expect. At all events we maycongratulate ourselves upon the fact that the

action of the Government has caused thisrailway to be completed satisfactorily, andeven if the Company were to tail to pay theinterest on the debentures to-morrow, theGovernment have a very good security, in-asm..uch as they could take over the railway atthe low price of X500,000. With reference tothe establishment of a Mint in this colony, I

Iknow there is a great difference of opinion.Personally, I do not think it a matter of verygreat concern. I do not think it is going tobe a very costly thing in the first instance,and the annual expenditure need not be verylarge. It will bea a good thing if only for ouepurpose, and that is it will be a grand ad-vertisement for this colony to have imuprintedupon the sovereigns that go into the pocketsof the people all over the world, the fact thatthey were made in Western Australia. Wearc one of the greatest gold-producingcountries, if not the greatest in the world, andwhen the question of the Mint is brought up,it will probably receive my suipport, unlessthe arguments are very strong on the otherside. T see the Estimates of revenue andexpenditure will leave a l-arge balance in Favorof revenue this year. and the Governmentscent to be in some slight dilemma as to whatshould be done with the surplus. I havereferred to the continuation of the railwayfrom Coolgardie to Hannan~s. I do not knowwniether that is one of the works they will dowith the surplus, but it seems to me one ofthe most nsefnl works they could undertakewith it. I ask the Government to be cautiousanad careful as to the use of- these surplusmonies. Although some hon. members havesaid that we need not be too particular about

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spending monies of this elass-we could spendthem upon almost anything-I think weshould be very particular that we use them ina good and useful manner. I would not askthat they be expended upon some immediatelyreproductive work. I think telegraphic com,-imuication, is one of the works to which someof these surplus monies might be applied, andthere mme many other works that wil no doubtbe referred to when the expenditure of thinsurplus comes on for consideration. I do notdesire to take up much further time except, tosay I hope the Government will give due careto the expenditure of this money, because al-though everything looks bright before us now,there will come at time when we shall regretthe expenditure of this money, if it be spentunwisely or foolishly. Referring to the TariffBill which the Government have broughtdown, and looking atit only in acasual way, asI have not been able to do otherwise up to thepreseattimne, it appears they have gone in afairly right direction, in removing some ofthose duties. I notice their aim seem tohave been to follow the ideas suggested or putforward by the Trades and Labour Council,and this represents the numerous workingclasses of this colony. f think that is a goodidea to carry out, as far as is possibly consistentwith our needs, and so tong as we do not dotoo much damage to the revenue, and thusprevent our carrying out many necessary andtuseful works, we may well take the step in thedirection indicated. I notice particularlythree or four different items are mentioned.These item alone will make a difference ofabout £30,000 at least. Of course this is avery large sum, andt it must be bornein mind that X30,000 reduction in therevenue means an amount equal to the in-terest on nearly a million of money at 34 percent., and when we calculate the possibilitiesof an amount like that, if judiciously ex-pended, doubts may arise in the minds of someas to whether the working n= would notreceive more benefit by this £430,000 beingutilised in paying interest on a large amountof capital, expended in providing him withwork. These are questions too deep to go intoat this stage of the proceedings, but they willhave to be dealt with fully when the TariffBill comes en for consideration. The Govern.meait have been bold enough to deal with theEcclesiastical (Ira .t.

Mm-. SimnoN: Hear, hear.

Tax lies. W. E. MARMLON: Some lion.gentleman saks, "IHear, hear."

Mr. Sivirsoz,: They have a majority of theHlouse, with them.

Trim lie. WV. E. MARMION: No, not amajority of the people. They have never sue-~eeded iu obtaining a majority-always aminority. The good faith of the peoplethegood sense of the people, is against them, andin favouer of the Ecclesiastical Grant. I do not* lme the Government in endeavonring to do' way with these petty worries that are con.tandly being raised, this being one of them.

Qhere are already certain gentlemen in this!ous who attack the Government upon every,;osible occastion, and when the question of thisGrant has been brought forward. They haveaover succeeded in their attacks; they neverwill succeed for years to come. I think theGovernment arc to bea congratulated uponadvocating the payment of a large sum to thevarious Churches wh~o have been in receipt ofthis Grant. I do not care whether it is in one or'we instalments, but I di, h~ope the payment,,vhether one or two, will be ats large andliberal as this country can possibly afford tomake. If it be as it is suggested, spread overtwo instalmeonts, then I hope that each instal-meat will benashlage as if it were only to be oneinstalment. If the Government will do that,I am sure it will meet with general approba-tion. I do not care wvhat lion. members whohave spoken many say, orwhat may be said inthe future, the more liberal the Governmentis to thie Churches, the mere will they be con-gratulated by the bulk of the people of thiscolony, who largely appreciate the efforts ofthe Churches to carry the light of the Gospelthroughout the length and breadth of thisland. I think, however large the Grant maybe, the people generally will regret that itcould not be made larger. While on this point(and I only just refer to it, not carinig to dealwith an argumentative question), Iam pleasedthe Government have not referred to theEducation Question, because I do not see anynecessity for any reference to it, and the bulkof the people, I believe, would rather see theiquestion left untouched.

HieN. Mshnxmns: No, no.The HoN. WV. E. MARtMION : Sonme hon.

members say, " No, no.' Well, they lave theirown opinions. aend I have mnine, and when thetime arrives to expressi an opinion on thissubject, those lion, members will have an op-portunity of doing so. I am very pleased to

Address-i m-Reply. [1 JULY, 1895.] Address-inr-Reply. 103

find the Government have not thought properto deal with this question in a manner that Iknow hon. members on the oth~r side of theHouse hoped they would deal with it. Anincrease in telegraphic communication is rs-ferred to. I hope this work will be carriedout quickly. I think some of the surplusmonies could lie spent advantageously in thatdirection. While on this question, I may referto the telephonic communication. I ampleased to find, that the suggestion madesome time ago, that the terms, for telephoniccommnicaestion as between Perth and Fre-mantle should be raised, is not to be actedupon. I am glad the Government havechanged their opinion on that subject. Ithink there has been great laxity on thisquestion of telephonic communication as be-tween Perth and Fremantle. Why do theGovernment endeavour to force the groatamount of work that is now being donebetween these two places through one ortwo linesP Is there any reason why thereshould not be half a dozen lines, if needed,or at dozen, if the business demands it? Itwould really bo only the first cost of layin~gthese lines, and that would not lie verygreat. The staff would not need to belargely increased; and when we considerthe comfort and convenience of the peoplewho pay for this privilege, I say there isno excuse whatever for the Government notplacing more lines between Perth and Fre-mantle. I do not wish in any way to findfault with the staff. They aire as civil andobliging As it is possible for them to be, butthey have not the mleans of carrying- on thework. I hope the Government will providethem the moans, and then they will do thework satisfactorily. Reference is made tothe low price of oar staple products, andmore especially to the low price of wool.The price of wool shows the state of thepastoral industry in this colony, at the pre-sent time. It is only those hon. membersof this House who have to do with pastoralinterests who know the position of things.It is only those who have felt the shoepinch who know how hard it is to carry onstations, more especially in the North-West-ern parts of the colony at the present time.They are being carried on by somebody, butat a loss to everybody. I do not know anydirection in which the Government mightaist this great industry, which was the

support of this colony before the discovery

Iof gold, although the question deserves con-sideration at the hands of the Government.If anything can be done it does not matterwhat shape the assistance takes, so long asthe Government tries to assist the industryand alleviate the suiffering existing amongour pastoral population. They are at pre-sent suffering. They need every means

*of assistance that can be devised bythe Government, in every direction pos-sible, either in the remission of rents, or

*the reduction of rents, or even somethingmore lasting or of a more beneficialcharacter. I feel sure if the Government

*brought forward a Hill to grnt some help inthis direction, the good feeling, and the goodsense of lion, members and their knowledge ofthe difficulties that this great class are suffer-ing from at the present time, will lead thornto voce for it, and so assist the Government to%ssist those who are now suffering from thegravest possible difficulties. Now, sir, J cometo the point upon which no doubt hon. memn-

Ibeo- expect me to make some remarks-the pro-jected removal of the Government RlailwayWorkshops from Fremantle to the MidlandJunction. I have the assurance of the Ron.the Premier that this question will bebrought forward at at later stage of thesession by the Government, and that stopswill be taken to test the feeling of theflows upon it. I am, therefore, relievedfrom the necessity of doing anything that Imight otherwise have had to do in this partion-har direction, namely, to have moved 'anamendment, or anything of the kind in the in-tereists of theo colony generally, and the con-stituency, particularly, that I have had thehonour to represent for so many years. Ido not look upon this as the stage of theproceedings when I shall give the reasons

which should prevent the Governmnt frommaking what I consider will be the greatestpossible blunder. I will when the time arrivesendeavour to show that it will be to the ad-

Ivantage of this colony that the Workshops,though possibly itis necessary to remove themfrom their present site, should not be removedto any great distance from the port of Fre.mantle. TIhe main reason is that it would bemadness to do so, if it is possible-even by theexpenditure of a large sum of money, either topurchase or prepare, or level, or whatever isnecessary to be done-to acquire a piece oflad (even with a largeexpenditure of money)within Fremantle or a few miles distant from

104! A&Lress-in-Reply. [ASSEMBLYJ Address-i a-Reply

Fremantle. It would be unwise, it would heinjudicious to remove the shops 22 muiles inland.I will defy bon. members to find any easein any of the.Auatralian colonies, and I defythe Government, or their professional adviser,to produce one instance in which any Austra-lian workshops have beea removed morethan a few miles from the seaboard.I know more than one instance where enorm-ous sums of money were paid for sites closeto the seaboard. There are other sites inthis colony as good as that at Midland Junc-tion, though I know it has ninny advantagesin its favour. I see alarge sum of money waspaid for that land, but there are pieces of landthat have more advantages which an bebought for email sums of money. The case ofNew South Wales will be brought before hon.members at the proper time. I know thequestion of vested interests is one upon whichhon. members awe fond of sneering, and at'which they are fond of poking fun. If I manyrefer to vested interests, I say it is wrong onthe part of the Government, if it can possiblybe avoided, where the interests of the countryare not injured but benefited, to do a violentinjury to the thousands of people who areliving at Fremantle-people who have growntipamid the vested interests there. It will bean act of cruelty, as well ast an impolitic act,to remove the workshops unless there are verysubstantial reasons for so doing, and Ife~el sure hon. members will, unless it is shownthere are strong reasons,-,nore thanan expenditure of pounds, shillings andpence, yea, more than the expenditure ofthousands of pounds, shillings and pence-willhesitate before supporting the Government inwaking even one great mistake during- thelong time they have occupied these benchies.I shall, when the time arrives, and the Govern-went-my friends with whom I was associatedso long-know perfectly ytell that I am fullyin earnest, and that no stone will be left un-turned by me to hinder them from removingthe Workshops from Frezuantle. I say thereare other places that can be purchased forvery little, and which can easily be madesuitable by the expenditure of smafl sumes ofmoney. If this were done it would entailnothing like the injury to the country, andthe expense would only be felt in the first in-stance; whilst the interest on the moneywould be more than saved in ten years by thedifference in the cost of haulag-- of the goodsrequired in the construction and repairs of en-

pines, wagg-,ons antI carriages; as oven the verytimber whichecomes by the coast would have tobe hauled 22 mliles to the Midland Janction, forthe erection of carriages. It will be shown atthe proper time that the interest repr-esents acertain amount per annume, which will bemnote than saved in a shsort period, and whichwould be otherwise lost by the haulage ofmany thousand of tons of goodsi and materialper annum. It is not merely a question ofhaulage in the present, but for the nest 50years, and during that time it will he ananntually rec-irring- expense, and an increasingquantity. During all time the Governmentwill be suffering, through the blunder they arenow about to make, and I ask bon. memberswho have not spoken on the subject to refrainfrom committing themselves in either direc-t ion, and to remember the Government havenot made this a party question, and membersare consequently allowed to use their discretionwithout fear or favor. Upon this one pointI would ask thet,, to vote honestly, and as theydeemn best in the interest of the colony. I askthemn to consider the colony, and also the con-stituency I have the honoer to represent-at constituency than which there is only onelarger; comprising as it does, one eighth of thewhole poputlation of this country. I say it hasa right to Ioe considered. Without attemptingto push Fremnantle down the throats ofhon. members, I hope they wvill consider itright to preserve the interests that exist atthe present time, the interests that have beenlooked upon as their own for so long- a time.I say I hope bon. members will hesitate beforesupporting the Government in this matter.In endeavouring to make this removal, theyare making a mistake, they are committing anerror, which they will only regret once andthat during the whole period of their lifetime,I will not say any more upon this questionuntil the proper time arrives. I see theGovernment intend to deal with Sanitationand the Water Supply for various towns, woreespecially, I prsuet, as regards the City ofPerth. I amt very pleased the Government areundertaking this work at a time when,the Treasury is overflowing. I think this avery opportune time to deal with this ques-tion, and while dealing with Perth, it will bewell to look a little further down the river-to Fremantle. I think the lion. the Premier,some little time ago, alinost promised that thepeople should have the water supply handedover to thenm. It was a kind Providence that

Addcssiu-iepy. 1 JLY,189.]Adress-in-Reply, 105

provided the Fremantle water supply. It didnot cost much in construction, but was almostlike the case of Moses when he struck therock. There is am enormous supply mivsilableat very little expense. 'rhe Government couldwell afford to hand it over to the townshipindeed they would not feel it. I hope thiswill be one of the questions considered whenthe subjects of Water Supply and Sanitationare brought before the House. I come now tothe question of the railways of the colony.There is no doubt much reason for con-gratnlation that the railways of this colonyare leaving a large surplus over and abovewhat is termed their working expenses andinterest on cost of construction. I wouldremind bon. members and the Govern-ment that a great deal of that revenue is be-ing derived from the Northam rd SouthernCross Bailway. I was one of those whoadvocated, both on the platform atFremantle and from my place in theGovernment, the charging of increased rates,because it was what was termed a goldfields'Line. It is a question for the Government now,however, to consider whether the time has notarrived for some reduction of those rates. Ithink the time has come when soine slightreductions should 1)0 made, anid if theGovernment lose no time in making thosereductions it would be a benefit not only tothe people of the goldfields, but to the peoplegenerally. One word further as to therailway accounts and the system that has beenin vogue. It is said the railways are payingnot only working e-xpenses, hut interest onthe used capital in their construction, If thisis the case it is one of the strongest argumentspossible for the reduction of charges, becauseif the railways that have only just beenconstructed through new country, are pay-ig interest on the cost of construc-tion, there is a screw loose somewhere.and the people are paying too much for thecarriage of goods on those railways. Butthere is another point that may explain thefact of a portion of the profit being derivedfrom the railways, and it is this: that duringthe last several years the railways of ourcolony have been almost wholly supported outof loan money. Nearly the whole of the ex-penditure on them has been made out of loanmonies, and all the new rolling stock has beensupplied out of loan money. Every littledeviation that has had to be made at variouspoints; ceey little addition'tbut ham been

made, has all been done out of loan, and hascome under one item or another of thevarious loan schedules ; therefore, thatwhich represents the upkeep of theserailways is not actually what theyhave cost. When the expenditure of loanmoney ceases, and when these lines have toaccount for actual charges-for every pennyexpended upon them in their upkeep-thebalance-sheet will not appear in so rosy a light.I would like to be assured that this is not so,because this is not the first time I have ex-pressed this opinion in this Chamber. Thereare many items in connection with expendi-ture on the railways that should be chbargedto railway revenue, which are charged toloan funds. I nam not finding fault, because itcc uld not be avoided uinder previously existingcircumstances. We must not suppose thatbecause railways actually cost so much nowto keep up, they are always going to cost the.same, for they will cost a great deal woredome hon. member referred to the question ofincreasing the speed upon out' railwnye, andno doubt., this is very desirable, particularlybetween Perth and Fremntle. The slow rateof travelling is simply ridiculous, and there isno reason why the journey should not be madebetween the two pIlces within half-nn-honr. Ihave alluded to the charges upon the SouthernCross line. I now allude to the chargesbetween the centres of population. I thinkany railway Showing the same Signs of beingreproductive - paying working expenses'and interest on the cost of construction-should be able to allow a reduction in thecharges particularly in the cost of a first-classticket. rhe matter off accommodation mightalso be very largely improved. I hope thesethings will be take-, into consideration by theDepartment and thatt they will do their best tomeet them. I think it is desirable, sas I said,to incresse the speed between Perth and.1're-mantle. One other thing I would say and Iant not laying blamue upon the Department, andit is that between Perth and Fremantle,though we have railways with carriages andtrucks running there have been no less thanfour or six carts carrying cargo between thesetwo PlaBees. I cannot nuderstand how it is pos-sible for these carts to pay, unless there issomething wrong in the management of therailway system. I am aware these carts givefacilities by receiving at one end and deliveringat the other, not afforded by the railway; butI firmly believe if a proper system were

[I JULY, 1895.]Addrcss-in-Rcply.

106 dA rss-i-liepip [ASEMBLllfidland Railway Loan Adi.

introduced, there would be an end atall events to these heavy carts carrying heavyloads upon the road between the City andPort, which costs hundreds of pounds to keepin repair, and which would otherwise last foryeatrs, if it were riot for the extraordinarilyheavy loads going upon it. I think some-thing should be done, and further faialitiesbe giveni to the public a~t a cheaper costthan can be done by these carte. Some hon.members say they are very ue! ali. So theyare, but I am firmly of opinion that if therailway system were fairly worked therewould be no necessity for these carts. I amafraid I have dealt with this matter at toogreat a length end have been tiresome. It is

difficult when one starts with a great questionto break fresh ground. I daresay I havesaid a great deal you have heard be-fore. I only hope that our deliberationswill result in its being one of those sessions

which will contribute to the future success ofthis colony.

Mu. JAMES: X beg to move the debate beadjourned until to-morrow.

Motion pitt and passed.

ADJOURNMENT,The House adjourned at 10.12 p.m. until 4

p.m. next day.

.Tuesday, 2nd July, 1895.

Imeportatioa of Fruit into ports north of ChamnpionBay-Post and Telegrpaph accominodation atllamloo Creek-Oprt ionc in connection wcithMidtanidRail nay LoanAci, £593-Irregularityin despatch of .fails for (Srvidton-Addess-in-Reply : Adjouned debate-A diournanent.

TWE SPEAKER took the ch air at 4 p.m.PRAYERS,

IMPORTATION OF FRUIT NORTH OFCHAMPION BAY.

Ma. KEEP, in accordance with notice, askedthe Premier, whether it was the intention ofthc Government, to ameand the existing regu-lmations regulating the importation ofapples, pears, quinces, &c., into ports northof Champion Bay.

THE PREMIER (Ron. Sir J. Forrest) re-plied that no representations had recentlybeen made to the Government on the subject.It was not advisable, so far as the Governmentwas informed, to alter the Regulations.

POST AND TELEGRAPH ACCOMMODATIONAT B3AMBOO CREEK.

Ma. KEEP, in accordance with notice, askedthe Premier,-

1. If he were aware that the business ofthe Post and Telegraph Department atBamboo Creek was at present being transactedand curried on in the back room of an Hotel.

2. Was it proposed to erect a Post and'Telegraph Office and Quarters at BambooCreek, at an early date.

Tan, PREMIER (Hon. Sir J. Forrest)replied, as follows:

1. Yes; there is no other place available.

2. Yes; as soon as possible.

MIDLAND RAILWAY LOAN ACT, 1893.

Mz. LEFROY, in accordance with notice,asked the Premier,-

1. What amount of land had been sold bythe Midland Railway Company since the pass.lug of "'Thec Midland Railway Loan Act, 1ISM,"and what sum had been received by theGovernment on account of same.

2. What amount arising from rents hadbe~en lodged with the Government.

106 Address-in-Reply. [ASSEMBLY.3