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IN PARTNERSHIP WITH

NATIONAL LIFE STORIES LIVING MEMORY OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY Harvey Stimler Interviewed by Milenka Jackson C410/113

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Fl4l8 Side A

This is the National Life Story Collection, the Living Memory of the Jewish Community, the

second generation interviews. This one is with Harvey Stimler, on l3th May, l99l, and the

interviewer is Milenka Jackson.

My name is Harvey Stimler. I'm the son, the first-born son of Barbara and Leonard Stimler,

who originally come from Poland. They came, my mother's being a survivor of the

concentration camps, met my father here, in England, in London, and by consequence, I was

born on l2/lO/49, and since then, a whole array of things have been happening, and I've got

two children of my own, one of which, the son, he's now ll in June, and we have a daughter

who is just 8. And, more than that, I can't add on that particular side of things.

Have you a brother or a sister?

Oh yes, I do. I have a brother who's, he's six years younger than me. I'm actually 4l, I'll be 42

in October, so he's, as I say, he's, he's 36, as near as dammit, yes.

And what's his name?

Stuart. Stuart Stimler.

Were either of you named after any relatives of your family?

I believe that my, my, actually my, my, I have a middle name as well, which is Jacob, and I

think, as far as I know it, that both of my names are named after my grandparents. I'm not

sure which one was relating to which one, but certainly it ...

And were those grandparents who died?

Yes.

In the Holocaust?

I, I don't know whether, I think at least one of them would have been. I think possibly it

might also have been a grandparent of one of my parents as well, I'm not entirely certain

about that, but they are of origin from, from family.

So what, what was the first indication you had that there was something different about your

family?

I think perhaps it was, perhaps at the early stages of, of ... let me think ... when I was at

infants school, perhaps.

What age would that be?

I would think my earliest recollection, I would have thought, perhaps 6, 7, something like

that, perhaps. One of the things I noticed particularly so, was that my mother was fairly

highly-strung, and has been so, or fairly neurotic.

And in what way did that show itself when you were small?

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I think just, basically, I suppose, lack of patience with certain things, and perhaps, over-

reactivity, over-sensitivity to, perhaps, slightly emotional situations regarding things, seeing a

film, perhaps, on TV or something like that. And ...

What would she do if she saw ...

Well, I think, obviously, if it was a sad scene then perhaps she would start to cry more easily,

more quickly than most would at that particular situation. Let's see, what other situation can

I tell you? Well, also the fact, I think, initially, I recall, because she had it removed quite

some time ago with the ... she had a number tattooed on her, on her forearm.

You actually saw that as a child, did you?

I do recall seeing that, yes.

Do you remember feeling curious about it?

Yes. I think I was, obviously, more conscious of it than, than most. Most children of my

age, the fact that other children's parents didn't have this mark, and the fact that my ...

Do you remember what you felt?

I think ... I suppose, at that age, because I wasn't really understanding of the situation and the

circumstances as to how it arose, perhaps that of embarrassment, perhaps. I don't know. I

would have thought that was that.

And did you ask her?

Yes I did, actually, I think. Or I do recall her telling me.

What did she say?

She told me exactly what it, how it actually had come about.

Do you remember what she said?

Well, that, that it had been tattooed on to her by, by the Germans in the last war, while she

was actually in the camps. It was a form of, their form, if you like, of identification, and, and

that was all that I knew, basically, of it. I know that she had it removed, and I think,

psychologically, it was very beneficial to her, and I think she needed that. Also, the fact that

she had a nervous breakdown, I think about ten years after the War, I do recall.

So what age would you have been when she had that?

I must have been about, I suppose about that age, 8, perhaps 7, something like that.

And how did the nervous breakdown manifest at home? Or did she just go straight to

hospital without you knowing what was wrong?

I must confess my recollections of it are not as strong ... but I do recall her being in

convalescent home, I do recall actually seeing her in convalescent home. That's about as far

as it really goes.

And who looked after you while she was there?

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Well, actually, friends of my parents, very close friends. Also, funnily enough, survivors of

the camps themselves. And, in fact, I remember, I recall them very very well, actually, and,

in fact, both of them have actually died since. And, let me see what else I can tell you.

Can you remember what you felt while she was away in hospital? Were you anxious?

Well, I would have thought so, yes. I must be able to ... I can't remember specifically what I

actually felt.

And your brother would have been born by then?

Yes. Yes, I think he was just, he was fairly young, yes.

And so would he have been with you, with these friends?

Now, let me think. Strangely enough, I don't recall him being there with my friends, so I

don't know whether all this might have happened before he was born, or, perhaps he was very

very young. But I do recall that he, he suffered immensely. I, actually, as a child, very very

young, when I was very young, suffered with asthma, right up until, I suppose, about the age

of 8, and it was a psychological asthma.

Was it?

Yes. And I literally just sort of grew out of it very very quickly. With my brother it was

quite, it was slightly different. He, he suffered with asthma, but he also suffered very very

badly with eczema, and I do remember that very distinctly. I think, actually, Stuart is a, he's

more, a more neurotic person. He has, if you like, more of the tendency, or the character, of

my mother. So, by consequence, I think he, it tended, it affected him, to affect him more.

Do you and he talk about it now?

Not really, no. No, I don't think we've actually discussed ...

So you've never discussed, you and your brother, these things?

Not, not actually with him, no. I have actually related to, I don't know how or why, the, the

information to my children, because, ironically, Stuart is a very, he's a very ... he is also very

neurotic, but he's also a bit of a hypochondriac. But then I think it might be that he generally

is ailing in his own way. I don't know. You can't specifically say, "That is what he's

suffering from." But he definitely is ailing. Personally, I haven't been suffering with

anything really, until about, until I was 39, three years ago, when, unfortunately, I've been

diagnosed as being suffering from Multiple Sclerosis.

Oh my goodness!

And that's suddenly taking it's toll, in it's own way, and it's been affecting me in different

ways over the last three years.

Dreadful.

Yes, absolutely. I'm finding it very difficult to come to terms with it, basically, because it's a,

a readjustment of one's lifestyle, whereas before now, I was anything but a hypochondriac,

but now, and, in fact, I always used to frown upon Stuart being one, but now I've virtually

fallen into that, that category.

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Yes, yes.

I would say virtually, it's a definite certainty. I've become much more conscious of what's

happening to me, because, I suppose, it's effectively a consequence of it. And also, not

knowing what's going to happen next.

Did you find it difficult getting up the stairs today?

Not too bad, actually.

Not all that easy?

I, I have to tax my energy very cautiously, and I can manage certain things in certain ways.

At the present moment, I am going through a sort of a minor state, altered state, but I think,

I'm a sort of believer that if you carry on, that hopefully it'll just pass in it's own time, and,

hopefully, things will be okay. But it's a bit difficult to predetermine, that's the only problem

with it. So, it has taken it's toll. It's, over the last three years, it's attacked me, I should

think, about seven times, in different ways. Some more dramatically than others. But,

fortunately enough, I'm pleased to say, that it has subsided, in it's own way. But it's no

guarantees, as it were, that the next attack could be a more permanent one, even though it

might seem very similar to the previous one, so it's, it is a little bit difficult to pre,

predetermine in any way.

And then there's the worry of supporting your family.

Absolutely, yes. Ironically enough, my brain is still sort of active in it's own way, and

wanting to do things, and having the ambitions, but my body is sort of slowing me down, and

not allowing me to do those things, which is ... it's very frustrating. That's, I think that's the,

that's the only way to describe it. Absolutely.

Does it feel like a sort of "last straw"? You know, after all you've had to struggle through

with the family?

Almost. Almost. I must confess, sometimes I sort of, I seem to think to myself, you know,

there's, there's got to be a better existence than this! And obviously one gets involved in

one's children and so on, and, and so I snap out of it. But sometimes you feel very

despondent. Very despondent.

Yes. Yes.

It's very tough on my wife, particularly so. I think the toll is taking very strongly upon her.

She hasn't had, actually, anything of a life of it either. Her father died when she was very

young, she was only about l2, I think, and had to contend with a, a very undesirable

stepfather. And she was looking for all sorts of security, which I can understand. And she

found it in me, up until I was 39, and then, suddenly, both of our lives changed. I think,

actually, when you get something like this, it's, you've almost, you're almost experiencing a

bereavement, because what's happened is, you, you've lost the person that was originally, and

you've got somebody who's slightly different. (LAUGHS)

You're bereaved of your health, in a way, aren't you?

Yes. Well, that's, that's right, bereaved of your health, and by consequence you, you

experience character changes, by consequence, in, in both respects. I think it's, it's very ... I

find it difficult to retain a sort of constant attitude of "Oh no, it'll be all right", and, you know,

"Everything's going to be fine, and it's all a bowl of cherries, and it'll be all right", because,

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sometimes, it just, it gets so uncomfortable, and unbearable, that it's very difficult to do that.

Very difficult. And, the person who feels the brunt of it is, is my wife. And the kids, to a

certain extent. But they are very conscious of it. I think, in their own way, it's going to affect

them in their adulthood, I suppose, eventually, having sort of, that feeling of not knowing

directly, but indirectly, a sense of insecurity, which, I hope, is not going to affect them too

much. I'm doing my damnedest and I'll try not to let it happen.

Yes. But it's extra disappointing because I'm sure you had to overcome a great deal in your

childhood and youth, you hoped to provide something better for your children, and now you

find yourself almost putting them in the same position you were in.

Yes, absolutely, yes. Only for a slightly different, you know, something totally different.

Yes.

Which is, is even more devastating, really. But there's always hope, I suppose. One has to

sort of keep one's chin up, so to speak, and keep going! (LAUGHS) That's the only thing

one can do.

What attitude are your parents taking to your illness?

Well, I think, almost to a point of, I suppose, well, they are very concerned, that's

understandable. They're very very concerned. In fact, my father, I don't know, he ... I think

it's almost unfair on him really, because he's running around, and he, you know, helping my

wife, myself, and so on, to make things better and easier for us when, really, things should be

easier for him, because he's now at retirement age, and he should be taking life much more

easily. But, instead, he's, thank God, he's, he's very very well, and he can, he can actually do

a certain amount that it's a little bit scary as well, because I don't want to put him to stress and

strain in his attempts to assist me. But I think it's, it's something where ...I know my father's a

person that, he likes to, to keep going, and want to do things, which, I think is absolutely

crucial for him. It's unfortunate that it has to be something like this, in order to preoccupy

him. But he does, he's, he's very good like that, actually, I must say. He's got a lot of

patience. In fact, sometimes, in some ways, his failings as a parent himself, have sort of,

have taught him something, I suppose, to a certain extent, where he's totally, his attitude is

totally different towards his grandchildren, in other words, my children, because he feels, I

suppose, a greater, a certain contentment, I suppose, the fact that he is a grandfather, but

obviously, there is the sting in the tail, the fact that I'm not as good and well as what I should

be. But ...

Do you feel they pinned great hopes on to you?

Well, I think, without being too bombastic, I think I was the apple of their eye, and, you

know, initially, with everything that I've ever done, I've always sort of excelled at it. But

now, with this, it's taken the wind out of my sails, and, by consequence, I think it's, it's

obviously taken the wind out of their sails, re. the confidence that they had in me as well.

Because here they saw a perfectly healthy individually, suddenly, I suppose, disintegrating.

Not literally, but slowly but surely. Which, I think, must be, must be very upsetting because,

okay, I know the way I'm feeling, but they don't, and they have to try and imagine it, which is

probably a lot harder. It's much much harder for them.

And you're not able to communicate to them what you're feeling?

I can describe it, but I think it's like, it's like with anything, if you described a picture to

somebody over the telephone, it doesn't have the same impetus as when you actually show

them a photograph there and then in front of them. The picture tells a thousand words!

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(LAUGHS) But, in this instance, it's, it's very difficult to describe. I think the trouble with

MS is the fact that it, it has this effect of lowering your inner strength, stamina, and

endurance, and it's almost, you tell yourself, almost, that you'd like to snap out of it.

Yes.

But ... and blow the cobwebs out, and that's exactly what I did when I first, when it, at the

onset of it all. Even after the first attack, I still didn't come to terms with it. I still, to be quite

honest with you, I still haven't really come to terms with. I still have to align and adjust my

lifestyle, because it's very hard. Very hard. You tend to sort of, you tend to push yourself,

thinking that it's just, oh, "You'll get rid of this. You've got to overcome it." And most

things, you know, when you do feel the, a certain tiredness, when you're, you know, you're

not feeling particularly wonderful, but you get inside a squash court, and you start bashing a

ball around and you feel, you feel much better after it. But, in this case, it doesn't work like

that at all! On the contrary, you fall into a pile of, of nothing, in a very short space of time.

Is there a parallel with the difficulty in you telling your parents how you feel, with them

having any difficulty telling you how they felt, in your childhood?

I think, I think there has been a certain restraint, as far as my mother is concerned, about

what, all the things that have been happening, or had happened to her, basically because, I

suppose, perhaps they didn't want to psychologically affect us.

So you noticed this scar when you were a little boy. What did you learn next, after that?

I did actually, one got to know about the various things. I think my parents did tell me, or my

mother did tell me of certain things that had happened to her, and what the, the effects it had,

it had upon her. I think it was a very generalised outline, but it was sufficient to convey

certain things.

What age would you have been then?

It's a very good question. I couldn't really tell you exactly. I would think ... Actually there's

one thing, it's funny how certain things do stick in your mind. I think it's something that,

possibly, my mother didn't realise that she was actually saying at the time, or realising the

consequence of it. In fact, I've got a scar on my forehead, which was a chicken pox scar, and

I remember my mother saying to me, she said, I can't, it wasn't just coming outright with it, it

was something that related in some particular way, but what she actually had said to me was,

"If, if you were in the concentration camp with a scar like that, you would have ended up ..."

or a scab, it was a scab, like, "that you would have ended up in the gas chamber." So I, I

remember, actually, after that, I remember picking it off, because I didn't want this thing on

my head! So, I don't know whether she actually realised it, the consequence of what she

actually said. And perhaps there was a consequence of a lot of things that she might've said,

but that particular one just, it just sticks in my mind.

Did you know what the gas chamber was then?

Yes. Yes, I did. That's why I had ....... ( ??CANNOT HEAR - both speaking together)

What did you feel, what did you feel about this?

Oh, that there was a certain, that there was something to be scared of, something to be very

very conscious of, to be very aware of. I think what my parents were trying to, perhaps more

my mother than my father, were trying to reflect upon me was the, the fact that, that such a

thing has happened, and it should never be allowed to happen again, because one of the

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things, the reasons why, perhaps, that it did happen, was because Jews themselves tend to

forget, or dismiss the fact that they are Jews, and then it takes somebody like an Adolf Hitler

to come along and remind them as to what they are, and who they are, and where they came

from! (LAUGHS) And I think that self-recognition, that's the thing they did reflect upon me,

and I've tried to do the very same to my own children. Not perhaps in the same way, but, in,

in the respect that there is a form of anti-Semitism around and abouts, and it's no good trying

to dismiss what you are, and that you've got to recognise, and be proud of what you are, and

not ever dismiss it and sweep it under the carpet and be ashamed of it at any point in time.

And what Jewish life did you have in your home, to carry out this theory of your parents, that

you must keep it alive?

Well, I think ... I was Bar Mitzvahed, I did my Mufta (?? sp.) and Haftorah (?? sp.). My

brother also did the same.

Did you have Friday nights?

Oh yes, yes.

And Saturdays?

Absolutely. Not as regularly as we should, on a Saturday, but Friday nights, certainly. No

question about that. And ...

Was it a happy, happy gatherings? Or, what was the atmosphere?

I think it was quite family-orientated. I think the basic thing, perhaps where there might have

been, I wouldn't say dishevelment, but an altered feeling about, about the, the unification of

the family bond, was perhaps when I started to go out with girls, and that sort of thing, and

would rather have been going out on a Friday night with my friends, who weren't, perhaps,

might not have been, some of them weren't Jewish, than having to be stuck, or trapped in on a

Friday night! And, obviously, looking back on a reflection, I, I realise this, that I think, I

think, then again, it's, it's a natural feeling, and hopefully I'll try and understand it in my own

kids! (LAUGHS)

When you were younger, and you had these gatherings, normally, in a family where this

background doesn't exist, it would be happy. Did you ever feel an atmosphere behind it?

Well, the sense of sort of ...

A more doomlike feeling.

A gloom and ...

Yes.

And sort of ... ... No, not really, no, I don't think so. I don't think so.

Did your parents manage, did your mother manage to be cheerful?

Oh yes, yes.

Or did she suffer from depression a lot?

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No, she didn't ... the only time, as I say, when I vaguely recall, but I don't, I can't remember it

that specifically, was when she actually had a nervous breakdown, and that's the only time.

And you don't know what, what happened in the nervous breakdown? Whether she had

anxieties, or depression, or ...

I think she had anxieties and depressions prior to it. I don't really, I can't specifically recall

them very well.

No. How was she after that?

She seemed to be, I mean, as far as I recall, vaguely I think, as far as I know, she was all right.

I think, actually, one of the main things that helped her was the fact that when she was

actually, when my father had his factory and so on, that she was actually in there and helping

him, and, I think, preoccupation of mind was, was the key to sorting things out.

Yes. Did she seem very anxious about you and your brother? Now, your brother wasn't very

well anyway.

She was, actually. I think she was very concerned about Stuart at the time, because he,

obviously, was seeming to be suffering more than I did. Yes, I do recall her being, sort of,

you know, sort of upset about that, and making reference to it. What particular reference, I

couldn't tell you exactly, but I do recall that.

And what about in general, did you feel she was a mother like other mothers? Or did you

feel she was different?

I did feel that she was different in, in perhaps, not so much from her, things that had actually

happened to her, I think it was more, perhaps to a certain extent in that respect, but, possibly,

more from the fact that she actually had come from Poland, and I think children are more

conscious about these things, the fact that she had an accent, and so on and so forth, and

perhaps her, her words weren't quite as well formed as what they should have been. And

perhaps I was, perhaps, conscious of that, and perhaps embarrassed by it. But I think as

children tend to do that sort of thing, they do tend to feel and think these things.

Did she manage to mix with the people around you?

As far as I know, yes. She had a fairly good circle of friends ..................................(??

CANNOT CATCH REST OF SENTENCE - both talking together)

And what nationality would the people around be?

There were a number of Polish friends that she had, or has.

This was in London, wasn't it?

Yes, oh yes, absolutely. All in London.

Which part of London was it in your early youth?

Um ... oh

Wasn't it Cable Street she was at at one time?

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Yes, that's right. Yes, that's right. Originally that's where I, I think I initially started my, my

life, as it were. And then they moved directly out of Cable Street straight away, to (sorry

about this, it's just at the moment I've got a, an altered sensation in my neck, and it sometimes

itches me like crazy! I'm sorry about that.) But, yes, and then they moved to Kilburn Priory.

And I remember a little more about that .............. (CANNOT CATCH REST OF SENTENCE

- both speaking at same time)

So there were quite a lot of different nationalities in those areas?

Yes. Oh, absolutely, yes.

Do you feel it was an area in which she felt at home?

I think so. I think she did, in her own, in her own way, as it were. She had actually met

other mothers at the clinics, when going with their, you know, with me, and, at that time, and

obviously made friends in that particular way as well.

So she was reasonably outgoing? She was able to mix?

Oh yes.

You didn't feel that your family was shut away, or anything like that?

Oh, she was very ... she always has been a very sort of sociable person. Never, never

withdrawn. She's always managed to restrain, you know, maintain a good social

environment for herself. I think she, she also is very active, always has been active socially

as well, you know, getting involved in charity organisations and things like that, which, I

think, is quite, quite important really.

Were you at a Jewish school?

No, I wasn't actually at a Jewish school. I went to, I think initially, I went to Brent (?? Braint

??) Croft, no, I didn't actually go to specifically any Jewish school.

So they believed in sort of letting you mix with a normal environment?

Yes. I think to assimilate with, and not sort of, tend not to alienate, and ghettoise, to a certain

extent, which I think, because obviously my mother's experience of ghettoism was

(LAUGHS) ... not from the sort of cultural or social point of view, but purely from the, from

the, her experiences of Warsaw, and the Second World War. But, no, she tended to, I think,

assimilate, very well, actually.

Do you want to say something about your father?

About my Dad? Let me think. Well, he's a very caring person. I think one of his basic

things have been that he, he's very much a person that, he's very capable, very very capable.

Does, can and has done many things. He can adapt to just about anything, and handle it, and

do it. But I think one of the basic problems there, of course, is the fact that, perhaps, he

probably would have liked to have involved himself more with the family environment and

background, but couldn't, because he was very busy building a business.

What was his factory?

The manufacturing of ladies wear.

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About cloth, cloth garments?

Cloth, yes. Ladies clothing and so on.

And he built that up from scratch, by himself?

Yes, absolutely, yes.

Where did he come from?

Also from Poland.

Yes. But he hadn't been in the camps?

No. No, not as such, no. He had actually ...

But he was Jewish?

Oh yes. Yes. Absolutely.

So how did he avoid being involved?

Sorry, how do you mean?

Well, he didn't get, he wasn't at the camps, was he?

No.

How did he manage that?

Do you know, I'm not sure exactly of the whole story, but I do know, at one stage, he was

actually involved in smuggling or something like that! Contraband of some description.

And I'm not sure whether this was before Russia had actually signed the pact with the Allies,

and he was captured in the midst of all this, and taken in by the, by the Russians, and spent a

lot of time in Siberia.

I see.

And he managed to get away from there.

And was he in Siberia during the War?

Not, I'm not sure whether it's possibly the early part of it, but he ended up in the Polish Army,

and was fighting in Monte Casino, and Lord knows where! (LAUGHS) All over the place!

I see. And how, how did his experience, how did his experiences show, compared with how

your mother's showed?

Um ... let me think. I think he also was, possibly, short-tempered, but then, I don't think, it

wasn't entirely him. I think it possibly might have been instilled by my mother initially, and

then he would reflect anger.

You mean that your mother irritated him?

Possibly irritated him into...

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I see.

Into doing, say if I had done something wrong, as a child, she would actually tell him, and

then he would then possibly react.

I see.

I that's about the only way to describe it really.

How do you think they got on?

I think they've, over the years, I think they've gotten on very well, despite the ups and downs

which they've had, I think. But then everybody has ups and downs, I think, but, I think, in

spite of that, they've done exceptionally well.

So what did you learn about his experiences when you were small?

Let me see. He had told me about the various incidents that ...

End of Fl4l8 Side A

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Fl4l8 Side B

Yes, he was telling me a story about an incident where he, he was under tremendous fire from

the enemy, and he remembers seeing his grandfather, who had been deceased for a while, and

had somehow shielded him away, you know, shielded him from, from the, the danger that,

that he was under, under the subjection of. And, various, you know, little things like that, I

suppose.

How did you feel?

Oh, very interested, and quite curious about it all, actually.

Did you feel he was quite a hero?

Yes, I did, actually, yes. Yes, no question about it that, obviously he had made his, his

................. (?? CANNOT UNDERSTAND - could be debuted as in debut??) a mark in, in the

War, and had done what he could, and had done it well.

Did you feel somehow he had overcome his circumstances? Whereas, did you feel more that

your mother was more of a victim?

Yes, although I think my mother was more, more helpless to the circumstances. But then,

having said that, I wouldn't say that entirely, because I think my mother admits herself that

when she was living with her parents, that she would catch the nearest, the very nearest cold

that was going around, and so on. Whereas, how she ... she can't believe it herself, as to how

she found the strength, and the ability, to survive the years that she had under those

conditions. Because she said, she would catch, as I say, the minutest little thing, and yet she

managed to survive.

And you felt quite a lot of skill and ingenuity went into surviving, do you?

Yes. Oh yes, I think there must have been. I think more than she actually had given her

credit, you know, for, for herself, in many respects, I think. Because, I'm, actually, I must

say I'm looking forward to, to reading, or hearing the tapes, whichever have been prepared by

her, because, to find out more exactly as to what, what she had to say about it all, because I'm

sure ... the unfortunate thing is, in spite of the fact that they are my parents, the fact that I

don't think we've ever really had the time, somehow, to sit down and specifically direct the

line of thoughts, and concentration to this, this particular issue.

Do you think that it's been avoided, rather than not, not real time?

I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think so. Maybe perhaps, as far as I, as far as I could

tell, or feel, that I don't think, it never was a situation where I'd actually be, sort of, "Now,

what happened here? Come on, tell me", and there was any sort of holding back on them to

telling me anything that I actually wanted to know. I never actually quizzed them, or

questioned my mother that much about it, because I didn't want to, effectively, upset her

about it. And I felt that when she did talk about it, that she would get actually upset. And,

from that point of view, I've, you know, I've felt perhaps the point of avoiding it.

Yes. Yes. And did you feel upset yourself if you were confronted with her ....

No, not really. I would try and, in fact, I, I would find it relatively, I wouldn't say easy, but I

suppose I could find that I could put myself in an objective position about it, and, and observe

15

and listen, rather than become subject, which I think, obviously would express an emotion in

some way or another.

And what about your friends at school, did you tell them about your parents?

Yes. Yes, I did, actually.

Did you usually tell your good friends about it?

Yes. Actually, I think various, I would never make a point of avoiding the subject if, if

perchance it was to come up. In fact, in some respects, I think I've actually made a point of

mentioning it, even, you know, aquaintances that we have today. I would make a point of

mentioning it, because there is a certain pride in the fact that they managed to, well, that my

mother did, particularly so, managed to survive. I think that, in itself, deserves praise.

What about your brother, do you feel he dealt with it differently from how you have?

Well, I think my brother has dealt differently, it might sound crazy this, but, I've always

reflected on, and compared how people handle, or used to handle their parents, when they

were living with them at home. As far as Stuart was concerned, if there was a dispute, or an

argument, something which was to, to clarify in some way or another. My brother would tend

to argue it out, but I wouldn't do that, I had a totally different form of strategy! My strategy

would be, "Yes", "No", "I agree with you", and then just go out and do my own thing anyway.

Because I felt it was far better for them, and for me. I think Stuart became more nervous and

neurotic in his character, through trying to argue things out, in an attempt to prove his

individuality, if you like, or character, and I think it's more harmful. Has been more harmful

to him, than what it has to play it the way I have, which I feel is a much more effective way.

Do you feel, in a way, that this experience has added to the richness and strength of your

character? What you've had to handle with your parents, do you feel you've put it to good

use?

Yes, I suppose I have, actually. I suppose, in a way, it's, it's made me more, given me a more

relaxed way of, of conducting my life, if you like.

Now, when you say "relaxed", why would that be? Is it that you're able more to see things in

perspective of what's really a serious problem and what isn't?

Yes, I suppose that's, yes, that's feasible (?? This is what it sounds like - interviewer speaking

at same time)

And do you find you measure all events against the camps?

No. I wouldn't say that I would, actually. No. I, I have actually, I mean, I've seen

newsreels and so on, on television, etc., and it does obviously become, especially when you

see it visually, I think reading about it is one thing, and seeing it visually, I think, is again,

something else. I do realise and reflect upon the fact that, that part of this, and a considerable

majority of it, might have, and could have happened to my mother, but what I tend to do, is to

do just that. I see it on the screen, and somehow, there it is, if you know what I mean. But

what's, it, it still amazes me, actually, because, I mean, I think my mother was in captivity for

about four years, I think, some period like that, and the thing is, that's such a long time to be

under those circumstances. It's, it's, it's mind-boggling. In fact, it, it doesn't, doesn't really

register, actually, to be quite frank. I find it very hard to believe. I know it happened. I

believe my parents. I know it, I know it did. But the point is, and it happened, obviously,

not just to my mother, but to a whole load of other people as well. But it still, from the point

16

of view of the sheer horror of it, and this, the sort of the length of time of it as well. I mean,

if one is subjected to discomfort or unpleasantness for a day, or a couple of days, but for

years, to be living, sleeping, in that environment, all the time, is just, it's just unreal. It's just

unreal. It doesn't really, it doesn't really click, if you know what I mean. I think, actually, I

suppose, actually, I have learnt something about it, in some respects, and I should think, I

don't know, I haven't really spoken to my mother about it, I should really. I think, I have a

strong suspicion that she probably, it had contended with it, the way I've been contending

with my illness, to a certain extent. Because my illness is an on-going thing, and it's variable,

and so on, and it's, it is quite frightening and you just don't know, but you do get involved

with the things that you do, and I suppose, in the concentration camp there were certain things

they had to do, so they got involved in those, so the time passed. But I think you tend to put

yourself in a, in a remote, that the, that life doesn't quite have the full strength of reality. You

do the things as you do them, as you're supposed to do them, and you act in the normal way,

but they don't have the same intensity. And I think that's exactly what I've done with myself.

Yes, you mean as if your mind stays separate?

Yes, it's ... yes, it's like I'm looking through glass windows, if you like, and seeing the world

through these, these windows, called my eyes, you know, that sort of, that sort of thing. And

I think, I reckon that that's, that is how my mother and a lot of other people, I should think,

most other people would have handled it. Because to be sustained and confronted with the

reality of that horror, continuously, I don't think any mind can really take in. The only thing

that I find, I suppose, partially strange, is the fact that it, my mother's breakdown occurred

about ten years after the War. And I'm wondering why it took that long, if you know what I

mean?

Mmmm.

I suppose it's, perhaps it might have been just the degree of relaxation, the mind didn't have

time to really think about it, and then suddenly, now it's got time to think about it, and then

the full extent of the horror suddenly came to light, and it had to take it's toll at some point or

another.

Well, as you say, if a person switches off like that, maybe you do become unswitched later.

Mmmm, yes.

Maybe some of the terror is sat upon.

Yes. I suppose it's like when somebody actually is confronted with a, with a horrific, or

bereavement, or something, when somebody's told about somebody who's died or whatever,

and they pass out. And the reason why they pass out is because they cannot actually contend

with the reality of the situation at that particular moment in time. So the way the mind

works, it just switches off. It says, "I can't take this". Whoosh, and just switch off. And

then, when it's ready to come to terms with that particular problem, and other things, and life

generally, it'll then come back and switch that back on again. But I think that's an immediate,

it's a safety valve really.

Yes, yes. It's interesting that your illness has somehow given you an insight, hasn't it.

Mmm. Mmm. Yes. Yes. Actually, I haven't actually really realised this. In point of fact

it has. It's, it's given me that particular point, this, this parallel, because the duration of what

I'm going through, not that I should think it's anywhere near comparable to what my mother

went through, but it is in another way. MS doesn't, generally speaking, kill people, but it, it's

quite frightening, because you just don't know what's going to happen next. And I suppose

17

that's, basically what was happening the concentration camps. I mean, one minute you were

there, and the next minute you could've been gassed, or shot, or whatever. And your fear of

life every day. But then I suppose, if it's a consolation, I don't think it is a consolation really,

but the fact that your life is gone and that's it. And that's the end of it. It's not like they were

going to cut an arm off or something, and just leave you to survive, and try and ... it was

immediate. Well, I wouldn't say immediate, but it would have been relatively quick. It

wouldn't be sustaining ....

You feel with MS it's much longer?

Yes. It's a sustaining ...

Yes. And you don't, there's no, you don't see an end?

Exactly right. Exactly right. I mean, I still am telling myself that I, you know, I can't really

come to terms with it anyway. I find it very difficult to, to actually accept, but here it is, I can

feel it, I know that things are not quite what they should be, and that's it. But I'm oscillating

on this sort of wave of remoteness which is my safety valve, to enable me to carry on,

otherwise I wouldn't be able to. I've noticed there's things get better, the only trouble is with

this damned illness is the fact that it, as you get better, you, you start to get a sense of reality

again. It's amazing how the mind does that. It will eventually switch back into reality, and

you're feel more realistic about everything around you. No sooner does that happen,

something else happens. So then you start going back into remote again. So ...

You mean another physical symptom presents.

Physical symptom, yes, that's right, presents itself, and then you find yourself, you have to

slide back again, to, to be able to contend with it. Psychologically as well as physiologically.

Because the worst thing you can do is worry, because one of the things, they suspect, anyway,

they're not really sure, anyway, that it is a stress-related illness, but whether it is or not ...

What do you feel about that in terms of your own life?

Well, I suppose it's, it's an interesting point, really, because I've been married, what, l2, it'll be

l2, it'll be l3 years next March. I guess, I mean, I contracted the illness about, about the same

time.

What ...

That's only, I mean, I say two, it's about ten years after, if you like, but by being married ...

You mean you had some early symptoms, did you, all those years ago?

No, no, I hadn't actually had any symptoms whatsoever, it's all been totally new, to me,

anyway.

I see.

If they, if there were any symptoms, they weren't aware to me at all.

I see. When you said that you contracted the illness at the same time, what did you mean?

Well, what I actually meant was the length of time. In other words, I've been married for, I

would have been married about ten years, which would have been the time when I first

contracted it. So I'm just wondering whether there's some sort of parallel.

18

Is that what the doctors say, that you contracted it about ten years?

No, not about ten years ago. The fact that I've been in a relaxed form, if you like, by being

married, and settling down to the marriage, as it were. I never really had the time, prior to,

when I was at home, or living with my parents, as it were, I had other things to worry about,

exams, and so on, and so forth, and making life, or preparing life for myself, as it were. But I

was just wondering if the fact that, that, as I said before, that it took ten years for Mother to

have a nervous breakdown, as to whether it's taken ten years for me to find the time to have

MS, if you like! Because, I think, they say that MS is an underlying thing with, with a lot of

people, with quite a considerable number of people, but it doesn't make itself apparent until

something actually happens. And, in my instance, you know, why did it actually happen at

that period? If you see what I mean.

Yes. Did you, do you feel as if there was some reason?

Well, one ... that's the trouble with this. It's the fact that you think in all directions, and for

hours on end, and you sort of wonder, how, when and why? And it's very very difficult to

come up with answer, because the mind in funny ways, the body works also, in equally

peculiar ways as well, I think, to a certain extent. It's very difficult to really decipher out a

true answer to the question.

I was really wondering whether you feel there's been long-term stress in your life?

Let me think. I suppose I've had my ups and downs. I think, actually, there was

considerable stress going through, you know, school and college, and stuff like that.

What did you study?

I was studying, actually, I was studying dentistry, originally, at the London Hospital. But

prior to that, it was all a bit of a trauma, because I had to re-take my 'O' levels, and my 'A'

levels and so on, and ...

You mean because you hadn't done well enough, or had done the wrong subjects?

No, I hadn't done well enough, basically. I hadn't, I hadn't really applied myself as well as

what I should've done. And I think, I don't know, dare I say it? I mean, it's very easy for me

to sit here and say, "Yes, possibly some of the problem might have lain with my parents."

And the reason why I possibly can say that, to a certain extent, is the fact that because their,

their over-enthusiasm to ensure that their child should become a professional person, if you

like, perhaps was too much, and overpowering.

Did you feel that you had to live out some fantasy for them?

To a certain extent, I think so.

Were you conscious of that all through your childhood?

Not that conscious, because it came fairly, relatively easily to me. It's just that when I went

to, to university and prior to that, I, I think I tended to allow things to sort of happen for me,

rather than my putting an effort into them.

Had you actually got an ambition to be a dentist?

19

Well, I did, but I ... the thing is, I mean, even now, I still think, "Oh, I wish I had studied

harder", or "I wish I'd gone into, and been a dentist", because I think I would have been very

good at it, I'm sure I would have been. But I think, I'm just wondering whether the, the initial

enthusiasm was of my own, or was it something that was instilled into me by my parents,

because it would have been good for me, if you know what I mean! (LAUGHS) Erm ... the

ironic thing is, at the end of it all, the, I feel that I would have, I regret it, that's the ironic

thing, and I wish I had taken my studies more seriously, and when I had to turn away from it,

and think, "Well, that was that".

You didn't get your exams?

No, I didn't get my exams. Unfortunately, I, I got two out of three on two separate occasions

which, and that's, you know, as good as a failure.

How many years did you do?

I was actually, I did the first year, but I re-did the, the first exam, which, which was traumatic

in it's own respect. But, by the time I'd realised the importance of the effort that was required

to pass the exam in the first instance, it really was too late. I was on my own, which was no

good. You see, I should have taken more seriously right at the onset, because the unfortunate

thing with dentistry is the fact that you, when you take a subject like that, is that you've, you

see, when you take an Arts subject, you can play around for the first year and a half, two

years, and then swat like crazy the last year, and come out with a Second Class, and that's it.

With dentistry, you can't do that. As soon as you start, you start in the October, and the

following June or July, you have to take exams. That's only nine months, and you've got to

be working like crazy, from that moment that you start. And if you don't, you've had it,

you're finished. And that's basically what happened there. I got into university, and I

thought, "I'm in! That's it!" And I sort of took a deep sigh of relief, and that was that, and

thought that will see me through. But, in fact, it needed a little bit more than that, just a little

bit! (LAUGHS)

So, what did you do after that?

Well, I went into all kinds of things, actually. I, I, sort of, I went into estate agency, I went

into, I was working for a contracts lift company, and I did all kinds of things. Once I'd

actually been out of college, it was very difficult for me to re-apply myself again. I went

back to study physiotherapy, because I thought, "Well, must do something medicinal",

because I was sort of that way inclined. But, unfortunately, I went there, and I just literally,

was solely relying on my previous knowledge, which wasn't really sufficient, it had to be

more directed into anatomy, and I wasn't prepared to, to apply myself. So that was

unfortunate, and a waste of time. So, in the end, I, I went into something, went into jewellery

manufacture and retail, which, actually, my brother was in manfacture. He told me

something about it. And I thought, "Well, I must get into something that I can adapt, apply

myself to, fairly quickly." So I did. And no sooner had I started, I got a gold licence, at that

time you needed a gold licence, a hallmark, and all kinds of things, and I was manufacturing,

and utilising myself, common sense, as it were, which helped me to, to manufacture and do

the things I wanted to do.

And did you like it?

Yes, I do, I do like it.

You're happy to do it.

20

I'm still, been doing it ever since, since l974, '75, some time like that. And I've got my little

shop in Mill Hill. And there's a certain academic aspect to it, because I do valuations for

jewellers and probate, and so on. So, from that point of view, it has, it had it's ... it's very

diversified.

So what is your disappointment when you say that you still wish you'd done the dentistry?

Well, because, purely from the medicinal side of it, I think, because of my dexterity with my

hands, but then again, looking at it by the same token now, I sort of regret, well, not regret, I,

I, it's just as well, because if I'd have gotten MS doing dentistry, which I probably might have

done a lot earlier, because the stress level of dentistry is much greater than what it is doing

jewellery. The jewellery, I mean, when you're doing somebody's repair, you can say, "Yes,

come back in a day or two", but you can't tell that to somebody with raging toothache.

They've got to be treated there and then.

But also it's physically very taxing, isn't it.

Yes. Very much so. So I think, from the stress point of view, it would have ...

And physical stress.

Yes. Physical effort is quite high. So it's probably, you know, for the, for the, overall, it's

probably for the best perhaps that I didn't go into it.

Do you feel these kind of, if you like to call them failures, let's say failures of exams, do you

think it was all part of any kind of a battle with your parents? Did you feel that you had to

rebel against their trying to get you into something that they wanted?

Um ... not, I wouldn't say that directly. I think it's more a case of, more to the point of my

wanting to take things in my stride.

Take things easily.

Rather than in any stress mode.

Or do you feel, on the other hand, maybe, were you a bit spoilt, and you thought, "I really

haven't got to make much effort"?

Perhaps that might have been true as well. Yes, I think it's probably ................ (CANNOT

HEAR - interviewer talking at same time)

You know, if you were so wonderful you were the light of their eyes, you only had to get into

these courses, and after that you were, you thought you'd sail through?

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I mean, that's a, that's a feasibility, actually. I think that's a

feasibility. Yes, on reflection, I think that's very probable.

What about your brother, did they not have those ambitions for him?

No. No, they didn't have the same sort of inclinations.

You felt it was somewhat dumped on you, do you?

It was more intensified upon me, yes. Unfortunately, I think with Stuart, he did try, in his

own way, but I think also, again, I think he, he was also, you know, it's like, it's like the film

21

says, "A bridge too far", and I think that's basically what it was as far he was concerned as

well. We were both, perhaps, my, my sights were higher than his, but his sights were also

relatively high. They wanted him to get his Gemological Association exams, because he was

obviously inclined towards the gemology, and jewellery. He was working for Philip

Andropus (?? spelling), for a spell, but that didn't actually materialise. I think the one thing

about Stuart is the fact that he finds it very difficult to work for people. So the only way to

rectify that problem, was for him to be self-employed, work for himself. He can't sack

himself! And that, I think, was the, the answer for him. But I think he's contented in his

own way. He's, he's married a girl who is, let me think, she's about, probably about four, four

or five years older than him. She's not interested in having children, which I think, I think in

a way, actually, Stuart would like to have had children, but they haven't had children. He got

married, five or six years ago. I think it's, he's contented in his own way, but it's, I don't think

he's really, he's not, I think he's financially happy, he's fairly secure, which is the main thing

really, but I think he'd like to be involved more, but he tends not to be. He tends to take

things as, as they come.

Do you feel the family background has contributed to that? Or do you think it's just how he's

made?

I think psychologically perhaps it has. Yes, it probably has, in it's own way.

Can you give me an example?

I couldn't be very specific on one particular thing. I think there, yes, there's, there is an

example. Well, relating to myself, I don't know if, and probably to Stuart as well. I'm sure

Stuart probably would agree with me if he was sitting here now. And that is, my mother

would, I would actually just complete my evening meal at home, at my parents' house, and

then I would go upstairs, and start to do some, to do study. And my mother would come up

with something like, "Oh, you must go upstairs and study."

To you?

To me.

Yes.

Just when I'm about to go up and do just that. And somehow, I don't know what it is, it

would just somehow grate on me, and I'd say, "Yes, I'm going up to study." But it would

somehow...

It took away your initiative?

It took away my impetus. The initial impetus was there, to go and do it on my own free will.

But because she'd actually piped up with that, it somehow would reduce my inclination.

And you feel that happened to him too, do you?

I think so, yes. I think so.

What about your father's success? What effect did that have on you both?

I think, the basic problem with my father's way of doing things, I think, I mean, obviously, it's

very easy for me to say, because I'm obviously going through my own, obviously I have faults

of my own. But, when I look at my father, I feel that the faults that he had, or, well, when he

22

was working, anyway, was that he tended to rely too much on doing things for himself, rather

than getting other people to do them for him.

You mean he couldn't delegate?

He couldn't delegate. I mean, he had people under him, which he had, had working for him,

but somehow it's, it was too much of "do it myself, because it'll save in the long run."

But you don't have that trouble?

I do to a certain extent, because, you know, they say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree!

(LAUGHS)

You feel other people are not so reliable?

Well, that's right. Sometimes nobody does it the way you do it, if you know what I mean!

(LAUGHS) And I find that time and time again. And it's, it's very frustrating, actually,

because it doesn't allow you to expand and diversify, because you're too involved in the red

tape.

And do you find that your business stays smaller because you do that?

Yes. Yes, absolutely. In fact I feel, I must say that I feel very frustrated with myself,

because I feel I should've expanded and done a lot more than what I have actually achieved.

And do you also feel that, in view of your illness, it would have been better to have delegated

more?

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

So that you could just do the mental management?

Yes, that's right. Especially now, now I'm in a cleft stick situation, because now the illness

has slowed me down as well.

Can you train anybody now?

Yes. Oh, I could do that, but it's, I wouldn't say it's too late now, it's ...

It's an awkward moment when you're not feeling your best.

Yes, yes. That's right. That's right. I can't give you my best shot.

And you think your brother's like that too?

No. I don't think he's as ambitious. I think if certain things were brought to his light,

brought to his attention ...

End of Fl4l8 Side B

23

Fl4l9 Side A

... of an attitude that I'll, I'll have lots of ideas about doing various things, but somehow, I get

so involved with, with, as I say, making a living, that I haven't got time to make a fortune!

So to speak! (LAUGHS)

Is this since you became ill, or have you always been like that?

I think I've always tended to be like that, but now it seems that I've got this additional burden

as well, which is, which makes it even more frustrating.

Now, is that different from how your father was in the factory? Do you feel he was a better

organiser than you?

I suppose, to a certain extent, he must have been a better organiser, but, at the end of the day,

I think, again, he also was guilty, or suffering of the same thing, that is, that he was so busy,

involved in manufacturing, and making up, and getting the orders out, ready for the

customers, that he never actually sat down and thought to himself, "Well, hang on a minute,

how much time has this taken? How much am I paying these people", and so on, and "how

much profit at the end of the day", that really, as to whether it really was a viable proposition

in the first place. And I think he was literally chasing his tail, as they say.

But you feel that his business wasn't all that successful, considering the effort he put into it?

I think it was at one stage, it was very effective, let's face it, I mean, obviously, he managed to

pay a mortgage and raise two children, and, etc., on it. But I think he could have done a lot

better.

Is he comfortable now?

I think he's, yes, he's, he's quite comfortable.

So he just made enough for a living and a pension?

Yes. But he ...

And no more?

He could've done an awful lot more, definitely. No question about it.

I see. Was it lack of business training? Or some character trait?

I think it probably might have been both of those things, actually.

Because you had no business training really.

That's right.

Except what you picked up from him.

That's right. Exactly right. Yes. I think that's probably true. I think that's probably true.

Yes, I think that, that both of those things actually apply. It's the business acumen. I mean

he, he obviously knew something of this.

24

But he needed basic training really.

I think he probably could have done with just a very fundamental grounding of some kind or

another, to, to enable him to realise certain things.

So you didn't really feel him looming over you as this incredibly successful figure, that was

somehow dwarfing you?

No. No, not at all.

There wasn't any of that feeling?

No, no, not at all.

And did he share his knowledge with you?

Oh yes. Oh, absolutely, yes. He was never mystical or mysterious about it. He would, he

would be quite open about all the things that were going on. And, in fact, at one stage, in

view of the fact that I was sort of ad libbing, if you like, in between all the things I was doing,

that to go into the business with him. But, on reflection, it's just as well that I didn't, because,

unfortunately, the business did, did go, it went bust at the end of the day, it did go into

voluntary liquidation.

What age was he when that happened?

He was, he must have been about, he must have been about, I would've thought, late fifties,

early sixties.

I see. So were you boys adult by then?

Oh yes. Yes.

Yes. He didn't need the money to support you.

No, no, no, no.

But how did he and your mother manage? There was sufficient left, was there?

Well, fortunately, it's not so much that. He has been involved in, in property investment as

well.

I see.

But, quite honestly, I think he could have done an awful lot more. He could have done an

awful lot more. I think this is the thing, actually. He was so involved with the business, and

trying to make it work, I think it was almost, in fact, he found it very devastating. I think it

had a tremendous psychological effect upon him, when he lost the business. It took him a

while to get over that. And it, I think, it's, it's something that I'm sure that he'll always, I

suppose, regret, in some respect. But, really, at the onset, when he first started, if he was

doing something totally different, he had actually been working as an engineer in the Army,

on tanks and on lorries, and that sort of thing, a mechanic, and coming to England, he would

have been far better off having stuck in with it, because there's always a demand for that.

And by now, he would have probably expanded quite considerably, because I've always been

interested in that, so probably study would never have come into it, actually. I probably

would have gone straight into his business, and that would have been that, without messing

25

about really, because ... I say "messing about", I mean, okay, they say whatever you learn is

never wasted, but if I had been directing that into his business as well, then it could have

grown together. And no doubt Stuart might have possibly have followed suit, I don't know.

And what about your mother, how active a part did she take in your father's business?

Oh, she was very active. But again, I think, making the same mistake. Not that she

shouldn't help him, because she did, she did precisely that, she stood by him, and she helped

him. And that was to assist in the manufacturing. She would actually overlock and stitch and

so on, garments (?? SAYS SOMETHING ELSE HERE - CANNOT CATCH - interview

talking at same time)

So was she rushing back and forth from home, looking after the home, rushing to the factory.

Yes.

Was it a big distance between the two?

A fair distance, from Harrow to Camden Town.

And did you feel she was a bit burdened?

She was, I think, to a certain extent. Yes, she was. Yes. I would have thought so.

And do you feel you boys had a bit less attention because the two were so busy? Or was it

almost a good thing to have a little less attention?

It probably might have been better for us, having the lesser attention. The only time I think

when it really affected Stuart, not so much me, was when he was younger, because I think, I

think his nervousness, and his problems, his eczema and asthma, was, was possibly, and

probably due to my mother's neuroses, I think. I think, I'm pretty certain of that, actually.

All you've desribed of her neuroses so far, is a bit short-tempered, a little bit impatient.

What, what do you call neurosis?

I think some, in certain instances, not always, but in certain instances, she would find an

inability to, to be relaxed when she needed to be, if you know what I mean. Difficult to

unwind. And I think that's, I think the art of relaxation is, is a definite art, there's no question

about it. She would ... let me think. There was one instance, I remember, when a friend of

mine had a, a Spitfire, he'd just been given, just bought for him. And I used to share my, my

mother's car, which I used to use, and I was saying, "Yes, Mum, please, I'd like to get a

Midget or something like that", because obviously it's a young boy's dream to have a, a

convertible car. And she got so, I mean, obviously I might have been pushing the point,

perhaps, I don't know, I couldn't tell you exactly, but, but my friend was there at the time, she

said, "I can't drive around sitting on the floor." And she was literally sitting on the floor.

She said, "I can't drive around like this, you know." Expressing her anger, if you know what

I mean. And my friend and I sort of looked at each other, although my friend actually, was

very understanding, actually. He really understood my mother. He was very very

sympathetic. And he would never, he would never mock, or never take, make, make fun of,

or amuse, make amusement out of it. He would always be very understanding. And, because

he saw ... I did as well, but the thing was that it gives you an idea of, sometimes she would

over-express herself, which I think is understandable.

Yes. Do you find yourself making allowances for her?

26

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Yes. Did you ever feel that you had to be extra good? That you mustn't put extra pressure

on her?

Well, the way I, I think, when I mentioned before about not actually arguing with her. I

would never argue with her. Never. Stuart would try. And I think he ...

You didn't want to stress her?

That's right. And I think, at the end of the day, I think it took it's toll upon him, because he

could never win. There was no way.

You mean there was a moral pressure?

There was no way that he could win an argument. If there was some difference of opinion

about, not necessarily, I'm not saying about a political situation, or something like that, it

would have been relating, or regarding to going out on Saturday night. And she would say,

"No, you've got to do your homework", or something like that, or whatever. Or there'd be

some possibility or condition. Rather than argue the condition, I would just agree. And I

would just go out and do my own thing anyway, whereas Stuart would try and argue the

point. And, by doing that, I think he found it very very difficult.

Do you mean, when you say you couldn't win the argument, do you mean because the moral

virtue was always on her side? Because of what she'd been through?

No. I don't think it would be so much that. I think it was just, dare I say it, sort of self-

opinionation, and ...

You mean she had to be right?

Yes. That's, that's about the size of it, I think, yes, yes. No question about it. I think it

would be initially from her, as I say, I think before about, with my father, because then she

would set my father up. He would be, you know, he would be quite casual about, and calm

about the whole thing, and then she would gee him up. "Look, you've got to tell him..."

And it would "Yes, okay", and then he would sort of be convinced by the argument, and then

he would join in on her side. Which I, which is, I think only right, really. As a parent

myself, I find I'm doing exactly the same thing, because my wife is also, she's also fairly

highly-strung, she's not, she's not very calm, but ...

Do you feel that your mother and father were able to go on learning from experiences, or do

you feel what they went through, sort of held them a bit rigid in some ways?

No, I don't think so. I don't think so, actually. I think that they were relatively open-minded.

I think they might have had, within Anglicised circles, as it were, a possible barrier there.

For instance, if there would be a joke on the television, or on the stage, or theatre, they

wouldn't understand it. It just wouldn't register because there's a certain, you have to have a

certain understanding of, or command, it's not so much command of the English, I think,

actually, my father, particularly so, was more conscious of, of the English language.

It's more relating to the events that people are talking about, terms of reference, in other

words, isn't it.

Yes, yes. Absolutely. Terms of reference.

27

And you need them from your childhood onwards.

Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And if you haven't got that, it doesn't matter how many years

you've been ...

You need to share your schooldays with your peers that you're living with.

That's right. Absolutely. I think it's also, there's certain things that it just, it'll just be water

on a duck's back to, to my parents, because they just will not understand it. And even if you

explain it,

It's, they've no contact, because of their generation, the sharing of the War in Britain, was a

very unifying experience, whereas they shared a horror, over there.

Yes, that's right. Especially the fact that my, I think my mother was, was very, quite young,

mid-teens, from her, as far as her experiences of the War are concerned, so, I think those are

quite an impressionable time of one's life anyway, and to have that put upon you, instead of

the normal social environment, it's quite, it's quite devastating. Quite devastating.

So would you say that your parents don't feel wholly at home here, really?

Oh well, I wouldn't say that, no. On the contrary, I think, my father particularly so, he's very

pro-English, and ...

But it's that inner feeling of not sharing the background?

Well, I think he feels an inferiority.

Does he?

Yes. I think he feels an inferiority about that. I don't think he'd, he'll do his damnedest to try

and learn around, how to get round it, in order to be in with the lads, so to speak. But there is

definitely a sort of a gap of some description, on the odd occasion. It's not there very often,

but there is, there is one there.

And we were talking about your mother going to the factory, and working hard. What do

you think she felt about that? Did that help her to integrate with people, women of her own

age? You know, did it help in some ways, going and working there?

Yes.

And also, of course, helping your father to maintain the family.

Yes there was, yes, I think it did certainly help her in, in many ways really. The only thing

is, of course, that being the boss's wife, obviously had, she had that barrier to contend with,

but other than that, I think it was, it was of benefit, because there's nothing worse than if she

was to be at home thinking. That's about the worst thing that anyone can do, sit and think!

(LAUGHS) Yes, from that point of view, certainly, I think it was very, very therapeutic for

her.

Well, we're going to talk a little bit about the extended family now. How many who survived

of your grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins?

Of my, my aunts, let me see.

28

How many brothers and sisters did your mother and father have?

Well, my, my mother was an only child. My father had a younger brother, and he's got two

sisters. He had a younger brother and two sisters. Unfortunately, the younger brother didn't

survive.

And he went to the camps, did he?

Yes. Yes.

Does your father know what happened to him?

Um ... I don't think he does, no. He doesn't know specifically. My two aunts, they are living

in Israel at the moment.

Have you been to Israel?

Oh yes, oh yes, absolutely, yes, certainly.

What do you feel about that?

Well, we'd, Jackie is also, my wife, she's very enthusiastic about Israel too, and we're going,

hopefully, this coming August.

And does it help to have, have relatives in a, you know, a Jewish State, and does that give you

a feeling of some solidity?

Oh, absolutely, yes. No question about it. No question about it.

Did your parents consider going there?

What, for living? To live there permanently?

Mmmm.

I think they have seriously given it serious thought, but I think they're, I don't know, perhaps

that might be because of what's been happening with me now, that they might have second

thoughts.

Do you mean they'd even thought of going at this age?

Mmm, yes, I think they would. They would, certainly.

Because of your father's sisters being there?

Yes, I think that, and also the, the inspiration of, of Israel. They're very pro-Israeli.

Yes, yes.

And we've got quite a lot of family besides. Cousins of my parents on my father's side,

mainly.

In Israel?

Yes.

29

Yes. So are there more family in Israel than there are in England?

Now, let me think. There is more in my father's side in Israel, but there's more on my

mother's side in England.

So, who have you got on your mother's side here?

On my mother's side, she's, they're not actually survivors, because my mother's, she's a

mother's, my mother's mother, her, her cousin was living here for quite a number of years.

And she's originally from Poland as well, and she, she had, or has, she's died since, but she's

got ... let me think ... one, two, three, four, I think there's four children, of which they've all

got several, you know, various kids and so on.

Yes. And these all live in England?

Yes. Oh yes.

And are you in contact with all of them?

Well, we see them on, you know, Bar Mitzvahs, and weddings, and that sort of thing.

And do they live in London?

Yes, yes. The majority of them do.

So you do feel as if you have a family network?

Oh yes. There is certainly an environment of family around us.

But do you feel any lack of family at all?

I think the only lacking, lacking, that I miss, if you like, well, I oughtn't say miss, because I

never actually had, would be grandparents, I suppose.

Yes. Now did they die in camps?

Yes.

All of them?

On my mothers side, yes. On my father's side, I'm not entirely sure. I think also, possibly.

Also possibly.

Do your parents talk about that?

My mother has talked about with, when she had to look after her mother.

In the camps?

In the ... not in the camp, in the, in Warsaw, in the Ghetto. She says that her father was

literally, one day, a knock on the door, and they just took him away. That was that. But, as

far as, as far as on my father's side, not known as such. I'm not sure exactly what happened

to his mother and father.

30

He hasn't talked about that much?

No. He hasn't really talked about that.

Is he less forthcoming than your mother about his background, or just as much?

I think he's probably more forthcoming, relating to his personal exploits, if you like, but not,

not so much relating to what happens in the family.

You mean he's more likely to tell you the ways he used to overcome things.

Yes.

Rather than tell you of sorrows.

Yes, absolutely.

Or bad things that happened.

Yes, yes. Yes, I think that's, that's true.

Have you read much about the camp experiences in books, besides what you've heard from

your family?

I have read a little bit in various places. I must confess I'm, I'm not very inclined towards

reading, basically because I find, I just don't enjoy it. I suppose it must have been, when I

was studying, the last thing I fancied doing was reading, because when you're reading all day,

and now that I'm actually manufacturing jewellery, because it's close work all the time, again,

it's, it means a busman's holiday! The nearest I get is just playing computer games!

So when you get family gatherings, weddings, Bar Mitzvahs, and so on, all the relatives are

gathered together, and you feel reasonably as if you have a reasonably normal, or do you feel

as if there's big gaps?

No, I don't actually feel an alienation at all.

And what about your parents, do you think they feel huge gaps?

I should think that they must do. I would have thought so. I would have thought so, mmmm.

Now, you mentioned that you've told your, you've got a boy and a ...

A little girl, yes.

And a girl. And their ages were?

Marcus is, will soon be ll, Tamara's 8.

And have you named those children after anybody in the family?

Well, Marcus, funnily enough, is, is a sort of partial derivation from, of the name of Michael,

which is Jackie's original father's name.

Now, Jackie doesn't come from a family who has lost people in the Holocaust?

31

No, no, no. Not at all.

No. But she's Jewish?

Yes.

Yes.

And Tamara is, it's just a name that we've taken, actually Tamara is ...

Well, it's Russian, isn't it. I wondered if you'd got it from anything to do with your father?

Not as such, no. It's just a name, it also means palm trees, or something, in Hebrew, if I

remember correctly. And that's it, really!

Yes. And they're what age, did you say?

Eight and ll.

Yes. And you've already told them some things about ...

Oh yes, yes, they've had to relate to it in some instances.

You wanted to integrate them into it, quite young?

Absolutely. I mean, in, in many ways, I like them to, I think it's important that they should

have some idea as to what had happened as far as their grandparents, you know, not their

grandparents, but their great-grandparents.

Yes. And do you find that, in the school they go to, the children are aware of it? Or, or does

this, is this unique to them.

I think it's, it's going to be unique to them. I think the other kids in the school possibly might

know a little bit about seeing a documentary on television, but that's as far as I think it would

go.

It's not a Jewish school?

No, no, it isn't. Tamara's school is, is a lovely little Girls School, actually, well, girl and

boys, young, up to the age of 7 for boys, but for girls, they're allowed to on till a later age.

But a lot of Jewish kids go to the school.

And what Jewish practices do you have? Do you, do you do Friday nights?

We do Fridays.

And Saturdays?

We do Fridays ...

You don't work, or anything at all?

Well, I do. I do work on Saturdays, unfortunately.

You do.

32

Unfortunately, it's one of my busiest days, effectively, so it's a necessary evil, I'm afraid.

But we do Friday nights.

Do your parents come?

Oh yes. We do an alternate, they come to us and we go to them.

Where do your parents live now, actually?

Not far from me, actually, in Stanmore, which is, I suppose, about two miles, it takes five

minutes in the car.

Do they enjoy the children?

Oh, very much. Yes, very much, yes. In fact, they, the children join in, too. The thing

about, I think, to a certain extent, I don't know if it's entirely true, but I'm sure it's partially

true, is that, because they are of Continental origin, I think they have a much more open

affection for the kids than, than Jackie's mum, and parents, well, and her stepfather. Her

stepfather obviously, I can understand not being that involved, although he's quite, he is quite

involved with them, to a certain extent. But my parents are very very involved with them.

And do you feel they were able to be warm to you, as if they had had no, no, no troubles? I

mean, did it stop them in any way from being able to express warmth to you, as children?

Yourself?

No, I don't think so. No. I think, I think on the contrary, it might be quite the reverse, if

anything. I think it might have been an over-cautious, you know, temperament, really, or

nature.

And over-indulgent, do you think?

I think perhaps, perhaps to a certain extent, with caution, perhaps.

But they were quite protective, were they?

Yes. Oh yes. I think probably, going back to the educational thing, the fact that they were

over-zealous, regarding wanting their children to do well, and go to university, etc., especially

so when, when some of their counterparts or contemporaries of, their children have achieved

those particular aims, which made it even more unpleasant for them.

Yes.

I think it's an understandable thing because we're sort of, sort of going through the same thing

ourselves now!

Did you have any feeling of suffocation? As if all this suffering and all this need for you to

do well was a bit heavy?

I think it possibly, to the extent where, you know, to be told about, "Oh, you must work and

so on", because it's, you know, in order to be something in life, and all that sort of stuff. It

might probably have been humdrummed a little bit, yes. I think that's, that's more or less ...

But did you feel a sense of, you know, being a little stifled? A little bit pressured?

33

Yes. Yes. I think so.

And your brother too?

Oh yes. Yes, I think we both, both feel that. There's no question about that.

If your brother were here talking, do you feel that he would be able to talk as freely as you

can? Or would say similar things?

I think he might, I think he might exercise a bit of restraint to start with, perhaps, but after a

while, I think he might tend to relax. I think it's purely, I think it would be his sort of mood

at the time, really. He is a bit more, I wouldn't say neurotic, but he is a bit more emotional, if

you like. But, having said that, I think he would, I think he would be capable of discussing

things quite openly, yes.

What about your wife? What attitude does she have to what's happened to your parents?

Some of the British Jews have not been very understanding.

No.

I've been told.

No. I think she's very, she's very sympathetic to it and understands it. She, she has said

herself, many a time, as to, she doesn't know how, you know, my mother actually managed to

contend with what she had, had to contend with, over the, the time.

Have you been to Poland at all?

No, I haven't, funnily enough. It's something which I think should, you know, I should do.

Do you want to go?

I think I should do, yes. I think that's something that ... I think I'd like to go, perhaps, with

my wife, and not with the kids, perhaps, I think at this stage, anyway. I don't think it would

be really, you know, very good for the children.

Has your mother been?

Oh yes, yes. They went not so long ago, actually, about a year or so ago, I think, with my

father. Yes, which ... I was quite surprised that they actually wanted to go. I think, I

suppose it's to see, and look at their original roots, and see how things have changed.

Yes.

And your own children are well?

Marcus suffers with allergies, rather profusely, actually. House dust and all these other

things, he tends to be rather sensitive to. But otherwise, he's a very healthy, very good

swimmer. Tamara, Tamara doesn't seem to suffer with anything, actually! She seems to be

fine! No allergies or anything like that.

Can you tell me how you feel, on the whole, your life has been affected by the Holocaust?

Well, it has a, it has a hold, you know. Let me think. Well, I think it's, it's obviously, I

think, affected my childhood in certain ways, by the fact that my mother, having, obviously

34

having a nervous breakdown, I think that must have affected me in some certain way or

another. I can't be specific as to how, but it must have done. I also suffered with asthma, so I

should think that probably, as it was a psychological one, that would be inclined to be due to

that.

And you're recovered from that, did you?

Yes, yes. What else?

Your philosophy of life?

Oh, my philosophy! (LAUGHS) Well, it's very, it's a bit difficult to say, really, because

being, I suppose, having a slight remote feeling at the moment, regarding my own personal

problems, enables me not to see things in their true realism anyway. But, as far as, I suppose,

the fact that my parents being over-zealous and concerned about my education, perhaps if

they hadn't been, I might have possibly succeeded in a profession, rather than what I'm

actually doing now.

You feel this to be inferior, what you're doing?

I do, in a way, yes. I feel that I should've been, I should've been involved in something much

more, er, er, professional, if you like.

Do you think that's because of this Jewish attitude to professions?

Could possibly be. It's just that, that I had, I had actually, experience of being, of doing, just

pre-clinical at dental school, and the fact that, had I been enabled to go further into the

clinical, that I'm sure I would have been very good at it. Had I not experienced that at all,

then I think, maybe, yes, I might have been inclined to agree with you on that score.

You feel your true abilities haven't been fully stretched?

Taken to the, gone to the fullest extent, no. It's ...

And your status, you feel, is not the same?

Yes, I suppose, well, yes, that goes automatically, really. But the main thing is the fact that

I'm not getting, if you like, the job satisfaction that I should be.

Do you feel that you would have done more for humanity ...

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