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Minding the Gap:Objective Advice for Navigating Generational Differences

Sarah E. Madsen

TrueNorth Companies, L.C.

500 First Street SE Cedar Rapids, IA 52401 (319) 739-1163 [email protected]

Sarah E. Madsen is Corporate Counsel for TrueNorth Companies, L.C. in Cedar Rapids, IA. As Corporate Counsel, Ms. Madsen provides guidance to all of TrueNorth’s business units, including employee benefits, risk management, transportation and general company operations. She is responsible for managing TrueNorth’s legal department operations, as well as performing substantive legal work in the areas of insurance coverage/claims, litigation, agent and broker matters, regulatory compliance and oversight, privacy, contract review and negotiations, real estate and intellectual property matters. Prior to joining TrueNorth, Ms. Madsen was Counsel for ACT, Inc. and was a Partner for a national litigation firm, where she practiced financial services and commercial litigation. Ms. Madsen is the immediate past Chair of the DRI Young Lawyers Committee.

Minding the Gap: Objective Advice for Navigating Generational Differences ■ Madsen ■ 3


I. A Survey of Veteran Lawyers on Interactions with Young Lawyers ...........................................................5A. What are young lawyers “doing right” to ensure a successful career? ................................................5B. What are young lawyers “doing all wrong” if they want to succeed? ..................................................6C. What “young lawyer” habit/personality trait causes you the greatest frustration? ...........................7D. How do you believe young lawyers could better assist you in your practice? ....................................7E. What could you do to best help young lawyers to succeed? (Do you do it?) ......................................8F. Have you ever asked a young lawyer “what can I do to help you?” .....................................................8G. What one piece of advice would you give a young lawyer who you thought might

take over your firm/company someday? ...............................................................................................9 II. A Survey of Young Lawyers on Interactions with Veteran Lawyers .........................................................11

A. What are veteran lawyers “doing right” in their interactions with young lawyers? .........................11B. What are veteran lawyers “doing all wrong” in their interactions with young lawyers? .................13C. What “veteran lawyer” habit/personality trait causes you the greatest frustration? .......................15D. How do you believe veteran lawyers could better assist you in your practice? ................................16E. What could younger lawyers do to better support veteran lawyers? (Do you do it?) ......................18F. Has a veteran lawyer ever asked you “what can I do to help you?” If so, how did that affect you? ...20G. What one piece of advice would you give a veteran lawyer on how to engage young lawyers? ......21

Table of Contents



Firmly rooted in the confusion caused by the generational gap, there is a stereotype of young law-yers that demands attention. It is the all-too-common misperception that all young lawyers are casual, enti-tled technophiles, who depart from the office before sundown in pursuit of a “work-life balance.” That their resumes reflect a lack of loyalty and commitment because they may have worked at several firms during their short careers. And they lack the ability to communicate with others, unless it is via text, tweet or social media.

Those who perpetuate this stereotype are often those who were once young lawyers themselves. They are veteran lawyers, who are likewise stereotyped for being so entrenched in their pursuit of professional and financial success that they have forgotten how to find joy. Who believe achievement is based upon hours billed at their desks. And who believe that “doing it right” requires doing it themselves.

Sadly, my description of these exaggerated stereotypes is not simply a creative writing exercise. Rather, these are some of the real opinions held by a sample of real lawyers who I interviewed when conduct-ing my not-so-scientific research on generational differences. Participants in my research included lawyers of all ages and stages in their careers, from firms and corporations big and small, and from every region of the country. Each was generous and candid in providing their opinions. Of course, you are cautioned that these are their thoughts and opinions, which include generalizations based on their unique experiences.

So, you may be asking, “Why do the opinions of other lawyers matter to me?”. Good question. They matter because much of your success in your career is dependent upon what others think of you. If you are a young lawyer, your workload may be managed by a veteran lawyer. That same veteran lawyer may also be the person who controls your access to clients, and who may ultimately determine your partnership fate.

Veteran lawyers who believe the opinion of younger lawyers are not critical to their success are miss-ing key perspective in their pursuit of success. Young lawyers are the next generation of the profession. They can teach veteran lawyers a great deal about how to use technology to streamline trial preparation, grow their networks, and present arguments in a more compelling manner. Generally speaking, they also have a greater understanding of holistic wellness, which allows them to better cope with the physical, emotional and psycho-logical pressures we all face in the practice.

With that, I encourage you to consider the responses I received to the surveys I extended to both vet-eran and young lawyers. The insights and perspectives of these lawyers might serve as conversation starters or simply unsolicited advice that may inform your personal decision on how to chart your own professional course. Either way, you will never know how to use the opinions of others to your benefit unless you first understand what those opinions are.

I. A Survey of Veteran Lawyers on Interactions with Young Lawyers

A. What are young lawyers “doing right” to ensure a successful career? • Young Lawyers are doing everything in their power to get as broad and as diverse set of substan-

tive experiences as possible. Their career paths will take many twists and turns and those young lawyers who have had many different types of experiences will be best suited to make the best career decisions for themselves at each turn.

6 ■ Young Lawyers ■ June 2017

• Young Lawyers network well and understand why networking is important. You never know when a relationship that you develop today will turn into business or other opportunity down the road. You have to put yourself in as many different situations to get known and connect with people. The more you are seen, the more that you will be thought of in the future. Due in large part to social media, they are connected across the country also.

• Young Lawyers are extraordinarily competent at legal technology, and see new ways of accom-plishing tasks.

• Taking ownership of their matters and their practices. They are asking for opportunities and seeking feedback.

• Most are hardworking, ambitious, and anxious to learn and grow.

• Younger lawyers have a better sense of self and more outside interests than veteran lawyers. This will allow them to have longer careers, longer marriages and better adjusted children.

B. What are young lawyers “doing all wrong” if they want to succeed? • Waiting for the phone to ring. I think the worst thing a young lawyer can be doing today is wait-

ing for someone else to determine the direction and trajectory of their professional development. Young lawyer should seek out work in their firms, and development opportunities outside of their firms (i.e. bar associations, alumni networks, and pro bona organizations).

• Young lawyers seem to over-value (if not rely on) technology in marketing; there is no substitute for building long term personal relationships and becoming involved in an organization.

• Being short sighted in your actions and not protecting your reputation and image. You should dress and act for where you want to go in your career not where you are now. Many young law-yers seem more interested in making a fashion statement then making a career statement. When in a work situation, your outfit should not speak before or louder than you do. Young lawyers should be very careful about oversharing on social media. Things that show poor judgment will follow them.

• Not taking personal responsibility for their own careers and depending on firms to do it for them. You need to develop your communication skills, executive presence, organization skills and networks. These are things that you need to be successful whether you are in-house or out-side counsel. If your firm won’t help you, you should invest in them yourself.

• Some seem to feel entitled that opportunities should come without any hard work or are not realizing the value of occasional face to face communication.

• In my experience, young lawyers work through their lunch hour and don’t take advantage of net-working opportunities within and outside their law firms.

• Many young lawyers do not proactively seek mentors, even if they have to go outside their firms to do so.

• Hanging with their peers rather than more experienced lawyers. The more time spent in the company of more experienced lawyers, the more opportunity to learn and advance.

• Not investing in face to face or personal contact.

• Spending the time to understand the business of law firms (if in private practice).

• Not understanding that this is a client driven business. All lawyers – regardless of age – must be willing to forgo personal activity if a last minute assignment comes up.


C. What “young lawyer” habit/personality trait causes you the greatest frustration?

• The lack of communication that exists sometimes, particularly when a young lawyer gets under water or in trouble. We have all been in those situations. Veteran lawyers would rather young lawyers know when and where they are having trouble, then they can all work together to solve the problems.

• Casual dress in the workplace. The law is a profession, not a day job. Look the part. Take it seri-ously. If you dress casual, you tend to take a casual approach to the job. Don’t think older lawyers don’t notice......they do, whether they say something or not. Clients notice it too.

• Not listening. Not taking responsibility when things go wrong. You will not be judged by your mistakes, but how you handle those mistakes. Making excuses and finding someone to blame is not helpful. Finding solutions to the problem is how you will be remembered.

• Failure to treat work for clients like it is as important to them as if it were their client. Young law-yers do not realize what a privilege it is to be entrusted with clients. It is our livelihood.

• With the advent of online legal research, it is easy for lawyers (especially young lawyers who are doing much of the legal research) to tailor even their initial searches so much that they lose the for-est for the trees. Starting with a general treatise and working down toward specifics would provide young lawyers with a greater grasp of the subject matter and produce better reasoned analyses.

• Reluctance to own the result. Young lawyer (actually, all lawyers) need to worry about the out-come, not just whether they are doing what they have been asked to do.

• Young lawyers’ assumption that super busy senior lawyers will seek them out and ask to mentor or help them.

• Handling the task rather than handling the case.

• Lack of understanding that this profession demands a work ethic.

• One that has personally annoyed me if dealing with young lawyers who act like they are still in college. They drink too much at firm outings, come to work hung over, etc. I think some young people tend to treat business social settings the way they treated social settings in school.

D. How do you believe young lawyers could better assist you in your practice?

• Be more proactive. Don’t wait for me to identify issues. Identify them first and offer suggestions as to how to solve them.

• By offering tips on the use of technology

• Be 100% client focused.

• Think two steps ahead.

• Get things done early, not at the last possible moment.

• Keep up with what’s going on in the law. Be efficient in the work you do.

• Developing and pursuing their own professional growth plan.

• Be available and provide me with their opinion of what should be done with a case. I believe it is the young lawyer’s job to provide opinions and options and the partner’s job to either accept or reject the opinions and/or options.


• Learn more about why I do what I do, not just how I do it. Just as we lawyers need to learn about our clients” business, young lawyers need to learn about the business of the practice of law, as well as the skills we use to practice.

• Young lawyers can help with technology!

• I see writing skills in decline, particularly in proofreading. Instances of unfinished work being submitted to me (or worse, directly to clients) are becoming more common. Work should always be presented in a final version that has no typos, butchered cites, or grammatical errors. Proof-reading means more than just conducting spellcheck.

E. What could you do to best help young lawyers to succeed? (Do you do it?)

• I try to challenge young lawyers working with me to do more than what is typically expected of a young lawyer at their particular age/experience level. I have been there done that. I have taken deposition, drafted motions, counseled clients, and taken depositions. I look for opportunities where I can give those experiences to junior lawyers, and with my guidance, see if they are up to the challenge.

• Don’t just preach or give cookbook recipes for how to accomplish tasks......EXPLAIN the strategy of things.

• Act as a mentor. Look for opportunities to help them develop their professional skills. Be avail-able to answer questions and give advice. Take opportunities to share experience and advice.

• Delegate responsibility but supervise. Yes I do.

• Explain why I do what I do. What are the business considerations that impact choices made, relationships with clients? Explain why I make edits to written work product. Demonstrate how to take and defend depositions and try cases. I do this when time permits. It’s easier to remem-ber to take the time when the young lawyers is asking for the input and willing to put in the extra time, often after hours to get it.

• Mentoring and teaching.

• I need to take more time to ask them how I can be helpful and what they would like to do with their career – not everyone wants to be a partner at a law firm

• Invest in their careers by investing in the organizations that will give them a great career; Allow young lawyers to become leaders; Provide them feedback and suggestions on their work in a positive way so they will improve. I try to do all three.

• Invest in their future. That includes having them meet clients, taking young lawyers to outside counsel meetings, and helping young lawyers see the big picture. Yes, I do this with my young lawyers.

• They need more feedback, both positive and negative, to know what they do well and where they need improvement. I try to do it, but do not do as well as I could. I am just not available enough to mentor as well as I would like.

F. Have you ever asked a young lawyer “what can I do to help you?” • All the time. I frequently talk to the young lawyers in my firm. I have also gotten a bit of a repu-

tation in the community where associates from other firms seek me out from time to time. I


enjoy sharing my love for the profession with young lawyers and I am happy to help wherever I can.

• Yes.

• Yes all the time.

• No, but it’s a great suggestion. I’m on it!

• Yes, frequently. I greatly enjoy mentoring younger lawyers. Helping them develop is truly rewarding.

• Yes, but not often enough.

• Yes. Last week I did damages research for a young lawyer to assist her before trial. It is all part of being client focused.

• No, but I often have conversations with my young lawyers about what it takes to succeed. I will now also ask this question.

• Good question. I have used words like that a couple of times, but not exactly. Maybe I should start doing that more often.

G. What one piece of advice would you give a young lawyer who you thought might take over your firm/company someday?

• Take control of your own destiny. Don’t wait for others in your firm/company to decide it for you. If you think you might want to be a leader one day, let the firm/company know. Ask questions about the business side of things. Do your own investigation about the business operations. Offer to take on administrative responsibilities.

• Listen and observe five times more than you talk, because you learn far more about yourself, your firm, your partners, and the legal world that way. Ask questions.....people will tell you things.

• Be invaluable...the go to lawyer, with your own client base, your own referral network, your own future. I tell every young lawyer to put themselves in a position where they can leave, so that the choice to stay and grow with our firm is just that, a choice by both sides.

• Learn the business side of practicing law. They don’t teach these things in law school but it’s very important to understand the business side of the practice.

• Be physically in the office when their partner is so they are available for assignments and to dis-cuss case strategy issues.

• If you don’t look out for your own development who will?

• Act like an owner today. Walk in my shoes. Worry my worries.

• Find not only a mentor but a sponsor, someone who will put you up for opportunities and advo-cate on your behalf

• Because I am helping my young lawyer, they have an obligation to nurture the next group of young lawyers who are coming up behind them. That is my expectation!

• Learn how to get business and how to keep it. You have to know what clients want the most and also how to provide that to them.

• Those who are eager to do what it takes to get the job done and are team players will be success-ful. Not all projects or jobs are fun, but you will get more recognition if you’re willing to do the


mundane and do it with as much enthusiasm and attention as the more exciting jobs. Be true to your word. When you say you will do something, so it and do it well. Develop a reputation as one who can be relied on to do a good job and do it when you say you’re going to do it. Strive for excellence.

• Get involved in organizations that can help you develop. Look for ways to meet people and develop relationships with people in their own experience level. Look for leadership opportuni-ties to give them a chance to lead groups, get up and speak in front of people. Look for ways to develop an expertise and do a good job so they stand out. Being willing to work on projects no matter how boring without complaining.

• Start by developing a reputation within your firm as a bright lawyer who takes ownership and works hard. Then make yourself essential to the lawyers you support and their clients. Then develop the ability to grow there and with your own clients.

• Develop a niche.

• Think like an owner from day one.

• Work hard and always over-deliver. Never say no to a project. You get out of the profession what you put in, so go all in!

• Never sacrifice your ethics. It’s the client’s case, not yours. Don’t become so invested that you sac-rifice your objectivity or, worse, your integrity.

• Get a mentor, if possible more than one.

• Limit the times you eat alone. Not every project is an emergency. Relationships are more impor-tant than just about anything else.

• The practice of law is a marathon, not a sprint. Plan long-term.

• Max out your 401K/IRA contributions.

• Support your co-workers and subordinates. It doesn’t hurt to be the friendliest person in the office.

• Be generous with giving credit and stingy when assigning blame.

• Balance work and life.

• Give back to the community.

• Turn in your time sheets on time.

• Never speak ill of the profession or do anything to tarnish it. It’s a privilege to be an attorney; act accordingly

• Admit when you’re wrong and learn from your mistakes.

• Never present a problem to a supervisor or client without thinking through and recommending the potential solutions.

• Remember that success is fleeting and failure is not permanent.

• Volunteer to attend trials, hearings and other significant events for free. The learning opportu-nity is priceless.

• Practice the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you have them do unto you. In other words, treat others – including opposing counsel – not as they treat you but as you would want to be treated. To do otherwise would make your ethics dependent upon the other person, and ethics should never be outsourced.


II. A Survey of Young Lawyers on Interactions with Veteran Lawyers

A. What are veteran lawyers “doing right” in their interactions with young lawyers?

• Be mindful of the fact that the younger generation of lawyers works differently and has a differ-ent mode of accomplishing things; it doesn’t make young lawyers any less hard working.

• When veteran lawyers take the time to mentor and pass on their craft. I especially appreciate veteran lawyers who are cognizant of changes and challenges in the legal market (i.e. clients not willing to pay for multiple attorneys to attend things, limiting associate opportunities) pass on advice regarding how, as a young lawyer, I can get the opportunities I need to be able to develop skills to grow my practice in the right direction.

• Despite being tremendously busy, veteran lawyers are always available for a conversation.

• Allowing young lawyers to take active roles in litigation despite decreased filings and fewer opportunities to appear in Court, take depositions, etc. I know some firms where senior lawyers handle almost all of the hearings and depositions because there are fewer and fewer to be had. Veteran lawyers who allow associates to get their feet wet in these areas are making a huge differ-ence in the careers of young litigators.

• Answering direct questions when asked.

• Not being condescending; recognizing the benefit of a young lawyers’ perception; offering advice based on experience

• Direct, hands-on mentoring. Taking young lawyers to interact with clients, other lawyers, judges, etc.

• Some veteran lawyers ask for associate input during client meetings and don’t shy away from having associates advise the clients directly. This instills confidence in the associates both for themselves and by the clients.

• Substantive legal work: Giving meaningful opportunities to younger lawyers, such as expert depositions and trial work. A veteran lawyer who takes the time to explain a case, the likely legal issues, and the overall strategy is the ideal lawyer to work with.

• Teaching younger lawyers how to organize a file, work with a secretary, paralegal, and other team members.

• Business generation: Taking the time to teach the practical side of the legal business, such as business generation. This involves taking younger lawyers to prospective client meetings and current client meetings. A practice in our firm, which is time consuming, but worthwhile is requiring all lawyers – regardless of years of practice – to draft an annual business plan. Also, if a younger lawyer has a prospective business opportunity, the good senior lawyers will accompany the younger lawyer to the business pitch. This adds some “grey hair” to the meeting, and offers a reliable foundation for the prospective client. Of course, the next step is making sure the younger lawyer gets the requisite credit if the meeting results in legal work. This varies by firm; the smart firms allow credit to be shared, or go to the younger attorney. This approach is good for the development of young lawyers, and the health of the law firm overall. Some firms are more short-sighted, which only hurts the growth and environment of the firm.


• Sharing their experiences – the good, the bad, and the ugly. I love when my supervising attorney tells me stories about how he used a certain tactic or approach to prevail on an issue. But, even more importantly, it’s important to learn about times when he completely failed at something or made a mistake. These stories (a) remind young lawyers that no one is perfect and even experi-enced attorneys make mistakes, and (b) help me to avoid making the same mistakes in my prac-tice.

• Including younger lawyers in decision making about the firm

• Respecting associates’ contributions. The most powerfully motivating and reinforcing experience I’ve had is a senior partner asking for my advice and thoughts on a matter (not just asking me to do a research memo).

• Treating associates with respect, passing along valuable information about interactions with judges and the “stuff they don’t teach you in law school.”

• While there are always exceptions to the rule, I think that for the most part, veteran lawyers are doing well when they treat young lawyers like colleagues rather than subordinates. For me, this means valuing diversity of opinion, treating young lawyers with respect, and identifying learning opportunities/inviting young lawyers to client pitches, firm-sponsored community events, court hearings/depositions/mediations where they can get “on the job training.” I also value those vet-eran lawyers that trust associates to do what they have asked without micromanaging them or breathing down their necks.

• Speaking to young lawyers with respect, genuinely caring about their input and insight, taking the time to explain the business aspect of the law in addition mentoring the young lawyer to be skilled in his or her practice area.

• In my experience, veteran lawyers are more than happy to re-count their favorite “war stories” with younger attorneys. Although sometimes tedious, the stories are generally reflective of how the senior attorney dealt with a particularly challenging or interesting set of circumstances. For me, hearing the stories and discussing them with the senior partners has helped shaped my development as a young lawyer.

• Giving constructive criticism and demonstrating how the partner prefers things to be done.

• Using examples – I always appreciate an example when I am doing something new, that way I know it will be done in the manner the partner or veteran attorney prefers.

• From my own experiences, I would say the best thing that veteran lawyers are doing is trying to better understand and capitalize on what makes young lawyers tick and operate. A good vet-eran lawyer (i.e. a mentor) must realize that younger lawyers are motivated by different means and typically have a dissimilar outlook (or goals). In our office the veteran lawyers truly strive to understand the younger generation and how to get the most out of us.

• Acting as actual mentors by offering practical advice

• Assisting young lawyers in meeting the right people

• Promoting young lawyers in front of people that matter (management, clients, colleagues)

• One thing I’ve benefitted from is being allowed to speak directly with the client and opposing counsel on daily developments in a case. This has allowed me to develop relationships, sharpen my communication skills, gain confidence in case management, and have a feeling of ownership and investment in the case.


• Involving young lawyers in strategic thinking about cases, not just doing the grunt work for the case.

• Explaining why they suggested certain revisions to writing assignments.

B. What are veteran lawyers “doing all wrong” in their interactions with young lawyers?

• Sometimes, veteran lawyers try to advance a position knowing that it is wrong but trying to bully the younger lawyer because they aren’t as experienced.

• Not accounting for changes/challenges in the legal market. Given the changes in clients’ billing requirements, associates no longer have some of the opportunities they have in the past to par-ticipate in trial or observe veteran lawyers in action.

• Not offering sufficient opportunities to young lawyers to allow them to grow outside of the writ-ing/research setting; underestimating the ability a young lawyer to engage new business or foster current client relationships

• Failing to set expectations. Be honest and forthcoming with your associate about exactly how you like things to be done and what your and the firm’s expectations are.

• Be mindful of the fact that our generation works differently and has a different mode of accom-plishing things; it doesn’t make us any less hard working. I just feel that millennials have more balance than some veteran attorneys, yet this sometimes is misconstrued or seen negatively.

• Not providing adequate information/setting expectations. Waiting until an evaluation to provide feedback/criticism instead of directly.

• Trying to placate and hold onto as employees those who are not worth employing.

• Communication. Some veteran lawyers fail to keep associates in the loop on critical issues. This ultimately makes it more difficult for associates and young lawyers to assist in a matter and stay up to speed on case developments. It can also result in confusion over expectations and responsi-bilities – leaving the potential for wrinkles in the handling of a matter.

• Not giving meaningful opportunities for young lawyers to engage in substantive legal work or business generation.

• Imagining business development now is like business development in their rise to partnership

• Assuming we don’t want to stay at our firm’s long term (too much talk of our career shifting gen-eration).

• Asking the loaded question of “do you have time for [this project]?” It’s difficult to turn down assignments even when you’re at or beyond a workable capacity. I think veteran lawyers may have forgotten or don’t realize that asking this question is almost certain to get a “yes” even when the younger lawyer should feel open to being candid about workload.

• Marketing has changed over the last 20–30 years. Veteran lawyers need to be mindful that young lawyers are actively trying to make connections in order to gain business, whereas many veteran lawyers got business passed down from other partner.

• Sometimes more senior attorneys task young lawyers with random assignments, i.e., pull this case, make a copy of that, search on Facebook for some random person, without explaining what the smaller task has to do with the broader project and/or initiative. Completing the small task


without understanding what the contribution is to the bigger picture can make younger lawyers feel excluded and inconsequential to the larger project.

• Lack of effort to connect.

• Veteran lawyers should not assume that every less experienced lawyer is a millennial with an “I am special, I won’t work hard, I didn’t have to earn it or someone else can/should do it for me attitude.” Other pet peeves including interrupting me when I am speaking, writing off my time without talking to me about it first, and treating men and women differently. There is still too much of an old boys’ club in law firms and I see this most prevalently when a female associate is pregnant – many men still don’t know how to properly behave, will make snide comments or assumptions that a woman won’t work hard as a mom, or will assume that she wants off the career track because she is on the “mommy track”. Also, men who are interested in taking pater-nity leave are also discredited and chastised despite the fact that more and more professionals have two partners with equally stressful jobs and it is none of the firm’s business how they want to divide and share their family obligations. If veterans want to earn the respect of the next gen-eration, they need to trust us, give us some flexibility (whether it is in dress codes, face time at the office, parental leave, part-time hours, side benefits like pro bona credit, gym memberships or other wellness incentives) and give us real responsibility so that we can take ownership of our careers and our lives.

• Being vague or unclear. The best lawyers to work under are those who give clear direction on what product they need from the younger lawyer.

• Veteran lawyers who do it all wrong are those that take the stance that because they are the elder, the younger lawyer should simply adapt to them. While this may be true for writing styles, etc., it is detrimental not only to young lawyers’ development as a lawyer, but long term it will create animosity. As discussed supra, young lawyers function and measure success differently than vet-eran lawyers. Trying to force a young lawyer to adapt only cause’s problems.

• Telling war stories ad nauseam

• Making comparisons to when they were young and the way they used to do things

• Implying – or sometimes just coming right out and saying – that young lawyers lack work ethic (because they don’t want to sit in an office and bill 2000 hours a year)

• Making a young lawyer look stupid in front of a client or firm management (by shooting down their ideas or being hypercritical of their ideas/analysis)

• Many of the expectations that were put on previous generations of younger lawyers do not have continued applicability in today’s legal community. Specifically, many younger lawyers don’t place as much value on “optics” such as early/late hours and weekend work when it is not neces-sary to meet a deadline. When older lawyers express frustration that younger lawyers don’t sacri-fice enough in terms of work-life balance, it can feel condescending and is frequently simply not correct. Many younger lawyers work remotely at night or on the weekends, and end up billing as many or more hours as their predecessors and generating just as much work product, yet they get heckled about not “keeping up appearances” in the office.

• Setting arbitrary or imaginary deadlines without explanation, which can cause frustration when trying to balance competing assignments.

• Not being approachable – not being friendly and just sticking in their large offices waiting for the young lawyer to come knock on their door. Also assuming that young lawyers have the luxury of


having a spouse/partner that is available at the attorney’s disposal to handle the errands/necessi-ties of life. Sending numerous articles a day/per week to young lawyers “for consideration” with-out indicating how important/critical it is for review. Expecting young lawyers to find an exact factually analogous or on point case because of the mere existence of Westlaw/Lexis.

C. What “veteran lawyer” habit/personality trait causes you the greatest frustration?

• Giving associates the tiniest piece of a task without also giving them an opportunity to see the greater picture and learn. I like the opportunity to take on greater responsibility, have a greater understanding of all the moving parts in a case, and play a larger role in working up the case and strategizing.

• Lack of response/lack of availability to address client and case issues.

• Jumping onto conference calls with the client to discuss the status of things that they delegated to a junior lawyer. Often the veteran lawyers don’t monitor the day-by-day developments on the cases and won’t have a good idea of what’s going on when it comes time for status updates. Also not deciding whether they want to personally handle something or send the young lawyer until the last minute.

• Feeling that associates need to be tied to the actual desk at the office from morning until night in order to be productive or helpful.

• Lack of communication.

• Unintentional or even intentional loading of project assistance requests without encouraging frank discussion of workload.

• Waiting until an evaluation to provide feedback/criticism instead of directly.

• Being a bully.

• Micromanagement.

• Sending terribly written, stream of consciousness e-mails to clients.

• Resistance to change. Some of our more “experienced” lawyers have done things one way for a very long time and they are of the ideology that “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I think they also stick to what they know because it is comfortable to them and, in the twilight of their careers, they think “why change things now?” However, there are often new/different ways of doing things – especially with technology – that can make the litigation process more efficient and/or effective, and it’s very frustrating for young lawyers who want to employ those new methods to be told “no, that’s not the way we do things here.”

• Lack of effort to connect.

• Assuming some level of knowledge of terms of art when speaking to especially young lawyers.

• A resistance to use technology or new methods simply because they are uncomfortable/unaware with/of new methods.

• False deadlines, failure to identify and/or communicate entire scope of project or purpose of a project. Sometimes the end game is more critical than the research question you are answering – if a veteran lawyer says – I need you to answer this question quickly because I have a client call in two hours or because this issue is integral to the strategy I want to employ on summary judgment but doesn’t give you all the facts –you are destined to fail which doesn’t help anyone.


• Even assuming that I am part of the millennial generation, it is a grave mistake to simply stereo-type your expectations of that generation with young lawyers.

• When a veteran lawyer has an attitude that he or she knows best and, therefore, only his/her opinion matters. Basically thinking that he/she can’t learn anything from a young lawyer or that the young lawyer’s thoughts shouldn’t be given consideration.

• Lack of specificity in project objectives; not timely returning correspondence/final approval on project.

• One thing I have noticed is older lawyers discounting or criticizing a younger lawyer’s research methods because they do not line up with the older lawyer’s personal preferences. For example, if a younger lawyer uses Westlaw and general internet searches to get the answer an older law-yer is looking for, it should not be necessary to also make a trip to the library and pull the hard copy of a treatise to cross-check the issue, just because that is the way the older lawyer would have done it. Also, regarding drafting of court documents, after the older lawyer has a chance to review the initial draft and make any revisions needed, it is helpful for the younger lawyer to receive the revised draft at least 1 day prior to the filing deadline if possible. When a younger lawyer prepares an initial draft well ahead of the deadline and receives a marked-up copy at 4:00 on the date it is due to be filed, it shows a lack of regard for the younger attorney’s schedule and workload.

• Not staying current with rules changes or technology.

• Be mindful of the fact that our generation works differently and has a different mode of accom-plishing things; it doesn’t make us any less hard working. I just feel that millennia ls have more balance than some veteran attorneys, yet this sometimes is misconstrued or seen negatively.

• Refusal to accept advice about the futility of certain arguments or activities.

• Inter-office mailing a redlined motion rather than meet with the young attorney to talk about it or call the young attorney on the phone to talk about it, especially if it is the first round of changes.

D. How do you believe veteran lawyers could better assist you in your practice?

• Helping younger lawyers develop their understanding and skills. I think this involves allowing associates to play a greater role in cases.

• Veteran lawyers need to find the time to slow down and teach. Too many young lawyers are thrown to the wolves and learn through questioning their peers or what they can find on the internet.

• Helping to develop industry knowledge. The legal side is often learned through experience and isn’t necessarily tied to a particular client (i.e. a motion to compel is a motion to compel whether it’s a construction case or a med mal case). But, industry knowledge (who are the major play-ers in the industry, what the legal are and business developments altering the course of a client’s strategy, what are the issues that are on the horizon) is something that is specific to a niche prac-tice or set of clients. The more a young lawyer can learn about the industry, the more effective they can be assisting the client on big picture issues and thereby take some of the burden off of veteran lawyers.

• Introduce me to clients.


• More emphasis on/mentoring regarding how to bring in clients. At my firm, they have their cli-ents they have had more many years, and have never really given me any training on how to bring in new clients.

• Offering to discuss their approach to regular tasks. For example, discussing their approach to preparing to take a deposition or an expert’s deposition.

• Giving us the opportunity to engage in significant tasks while we still have your help to guide us. What do I mean by this? A lot of veteran lawyers have worked very hard to get to where they are and they are at the top of their game. This, in turn, makes them reluctant to delegate signifi-cant tasks to younger lawyers. For example, some veteran lawyers insist on arguing all disposi-tive motions in court or taking all expert depositions. They sometimes let the younger lawyer come along for the ride, but do not let them take the lead. Then, when the veteran lawyer retires, the younger lawyer is supposed to start taking on these significant tasks without any real expe-rience in doing so, and without the assistance of the older lawyer. Veteran lawyers should give their younger associates more opportunities to do these significant tasks while the veteran law-yer boss/mentor is still around. That way, he can jump in to help if things go south and the young lawyer still gets the experience.

• Better mentoring and access.

• I think explaining their reasons behind the decisions they make with case strategy would be a huge benefit. We as young lawyers have the ability to learn from some great lawyers, but I think sometimes they don’t see teaching moments when the present themselves. If young lawyers bet-ter understood why a veteran lawyer is making decisions, it will help the young lawyers start making smart decisions earlier in their careers.

• Help give meaningful advice on getting business and understand ways of getting business for us may be different

• Include us! Bring us to client presentations, meetings, conferences, etc. We want to develop those personal relationships to continue the business once the veterans retire.

• Generally, I think staffing a case appropriately is important. Having the necessary team can help a case immensely. Showing concern/care for a young lawyer’s long term growth is very comfort-ing as well.

• Offer more guidance, more explanation, and more communication. Keep channels of communi-cation open and keep them both ways. Again, encourage open discussion on all issues.

• Being honest about deadlines and project expectations and asking young lawyers for their opinions. Not all projects are emergencies. Set parameters – do you want the waterfront, just one jurisdiction, a brief, a research memo, an email with case summaries and either give me the facts or identify where I can go find them on my own. Also, identify the why – I need this for an upcoming deposi-tion, for a client call, for an evaluation of an affirmative defense in an answer. The veteran lawyers that I work the best with ask me for my opinion and listen to me when I give it. They also are will-ing to change their minds if I have a convincing argument and/or educate me on why my position is wrong. I appreciate being trusted and valued, and we both learn this way.

• Everyone is always pressed for time, but I think young lawyers could really benefit from a men-tor/mentee relationship. For example, it has been very helpful in the past, for senior attorneys to review my deposition transcripts. The feedback I have received has helped sharpen my question-ing skills and it has enabled me to become more confident.


• I think a better focus should be made on business development. The mentorship relationships with regard to the practice of law happen naturally – we work on the same cases and get to watch veteran lawyers argue or take depositions before we start doing it ourselves. This creates a natu-ral guide to the practice of law. The business development piece is necessarily more restrictive because younger lawyers often are not involved in the initial business development interactions.

• Veteran lawyers can better assist younger lawyers in their practice by ensuring they have ample opportunities to get outside of their comfort zones and learn new skills. If a veteran lawyer can look at their case and identify smaller depositions and hearings that the younger lawyer can han-dle, it would help tremendously for the veteran lawyer to provide those types of opportunities.

• Mentor more on marketing.

• Introduce young lawyers to their clients.

• Provide opportunities for young lawyers to gain practical, even if not billable, experience (observing a trial, deposition, oral argument)

• Include young lawyers in decision making conversations, so that young lawyer learns the “why” behind a decision.

• Older lawyers can see better results by communicating clearly what the expectations for an assignment are at the outset, including the specific issues the younger lawyer should research, what type of response is needed (e.g., pleading/motion draft, memo, email, printing out the case on point, discussing conclusions verbally), the timeline for a response (with a realistic deadline), and any billing concerns for the client.

• Understand that the future is now. The world and practice of law are different, as is VLs’ approach to work (and life).

• Make sure that young lawyers are kept informed about the overall strategy and progress of litiga-tion.

• Absolutely – they are incredibly knowledgeable and have addressed many issues I have not. Rou-tinely rely on them for their years of experience.

E. What could younger lawyers do to better support veteran lawyers? (Do you do it?)

• I think younger lawyers could better support veteran lawyers by playing a larger role in strategiz-ing and working up the case. When an associate understands all of the moving parts, it is easier to spot issues than when working with just a very limited task/issue in the case. I try to play a larger role whenever possible, but my opportunity to do so is often limited by the assignments I’m delegated.

• Take initiative to acquire the industry knowledge on my own. I do some of this (admittedly could do more). But some of this is knowing where to start and young lawyers often need that initial direction.

• Set better expectations regarding case files and deadlines (this is something I am constantly working on).

• Being available and trying to take care of the grunt work on files.


• Stay hyper-organized. Again, they often don’t check in until the 11th hour and then need to be able to catch up quickly. I try and keep regular written updates not just for the client but for my partners too.

• Meet one-on-one with all of your supervising attorneys to see how you are doing and how we can add value to the team and better assist the clients. I started doing this at the beginning of the year and have received really wonderful feedback from my supervising attorneys. Not only have I gotten tips on how to better my practice, but it really shows initiative.

• Try to be the most organized person on the team, able to provide facts or documents quickly and efficiently.

• Communicate more thoughtfully. Our instant text/message/tweet generation talks more than they can handle, and often in more reactionary ways than they are comfortable with.

• Generally, keeping clients updated, cases updated, and showing that you are thinking about the case strategy, rather than simply going through the motions, is extremely valuable to a veteran lawyer. This practice also reflects well on the younger lawyer.

• Assist them in learning to use new technology where I can, and doing it for them where I can’t. (and yes, I do).

• Be understanding of their way of doing things, be proactive about asking how I can help them

• Young lawyers can help veteran lawyers by at least trying to stay one step ahead in the case and alert the veteran lawyer to deadlines and recommended tasks. Young lawyers should also take ownership of cases, but respect the veteran lawyer’s relationship with the client.

• I think taking initiative. I’m sure it would be so nice for a veteran lawyer to come to a young law-yers asking them to do x, y or z that they thought would benefit the case/client or firm and the young lawyer had already done it.

• Be more proactive.

• I think being organized and on-top of the cases I handle helps support the senior attorneys. Anticipating future activity and strategic planning on the cases, and discussing the initiatives with the senior can also be helpful so that they are up to speed on the status of the case and con-fident as to where it’s heading. I do the best I can to meet those objectives!

• Make better efforts to connect.

• Where I’ve been most successful in supporting veteran lawyers is by treating the case as though it were my own. If I’m waking up in the middle of the night worried about the case, then we’re on the same page and the veteran lawyer knows I have his/her back.

• I always try to anticipate the next step and I try to do it every day. Even if the assignment is – please research this issue – I want to know, how will you be using it and how can I format it to make it client ready or court-ready?

• Be proactive in seeking out opportunities and be proactive in moving a case forward by deter-mining a concrete plan of action and presenting the plan to the veteran lawyer in charge of the case.

• Try to better understand their position and recognize that they are not likely to change their pro-cedure.

• I constantly offer to help (infrequently taken up on it), especially with technology issues. Be available (yes I always made myself available and offered to assist).


• Always be available and willing to pitch in on a project.

• I try to anticipate other issues (outside the parameters of the assignment) that may have an effect on the client’s objectives in the case. I communicate these issues to the older lawyer and ask if they would like them incorporated into the assignment. If not, I will usually make a note that the issue came up and create a research folder on Westlaw for any relevant authorities that came up in my research, so that I can come back to the issue later if necessary.

• Be a go getter and be the first to open that door.

• Volunteer general assistance with matters more. I do sometimes, but I could always do more.

• Providing hard copies of motions for review rather than sending an email and being very formal in my email communications.

F. Has a veteran lawyer ever asked you “what can I do to help you?” If so, how did that affect you?

• Unfortunately, no. I think veteran lawyers are very busy with their own work and frequently for-get about training younger lawyers to someday be able to carry on the practice.

• Yes, and it made a huge difference in terms of professional confidence. I felt more assured that veteran lawyers were invested in my professional development and envisioned me as part of the team in the future.

• Not really, but I am not one shy to ask how I can help. I am sure if a veteran lawyer asked I would be eager to help.

• Usually I hear this more toward the youngest lawyers. Once you’ve been somewhere for a while, they expect that if you need help, you’ll seek it.

• Yes. It shows the firm cares about your future.

• Yes. It was amazing. It caught me off guard and I didn’t know how to respond, so the first couple of times I answered that I was doing fine. Now, if I need help on something, I’ll take them up on this offer.

• Not really. While it might have been said, I don’t think that there was much follow through.

• No, but our firm operates on an open-door policy and I have always felt comfortable approach-ing the senior associates and partners for advice and or questions. It’s one of the greatest strengths of our group in particular, that we constantly give feedback and bounce ideas off of one another.

• All the time. It is the most comforting, and at the same time, empowering thing someone can do.

• No.

• Not that I can recall, but I would love to have that conversation!

• Yes. It gave me the opportunity to expand my practice and participate in different aspects of a case a case that I am not ordinarily exposed to. I really appreciated the experience.

• Yes – although I think young lawyers should not be afraid to ask for help if the veteran lawyer hasn’t offered. When this question is asked however, the best thing a young lawyer can do is have an answer ready. Saying I don’t know won’t work. At a time when my practice had to change because of a change in the law making my work virtually obsolete, two veteran lawyers asked me this question and I said – I am looking for work in XYZ area. They put me in touch with those


in the firm that did that kind of work and/or their clients who wanted that service. I now have a great start on transforming my practice and will have relevant experience to identify myself with in the marketplace to clients of my own.

• All the time, particularly when there is a significant event on the horizon that I am handling (e.g. dispositive motion hearing, trial prep, etc.). It is helpful because it creates a natural opportunity to raise any questions or concerns. Not directly, but every annual review partners remind me to please let them know if I have comments, concerns, or need anything. I really appreciate it but feel like I need to be more proactive about actually doing that when I have a question come up. It is easy to become busy and solve the problem and move on rather than asking for help.

• Yes. Just the asking of the question gave me a sense of trust in the veteran lawyer and also made me feel supported – that I was not just another cog in the machine but someone they wanted to groom and advance. It made me even harder for that veteran lawyer, knowing that he would be both an advocate and a supporter for me.

• Yes. It means a lot to know that someone is thinking about you and genuinely interested in you and your practice development. You could add this to the list of things that veteran law-yers can do to assist young lawyers with their practice. The impact of not asking this question is far greater and longer lasting. The last year at my firm was the worst since I started many years ago and NO ONE during the course of the year ever asked me if they could do anything to help. Maybe it was assumed that because I was a partner I was supposed to figure it out on my own, but the impact of simply asking someone how they are doing and if they need help is significant. It would have gone a long way with me for someone to just say “hey, it looks like you might need help, what can we do?” People want to feel like they matter and when you don’t ask them how they are doing or if they need help they feel like they don’t.

• Our managing partner asks this question with our marketing and development goals. It makes us feel part of a larger team and is proof of the firm’s investment in talent.

• No. That would be terrific.

• Yes. It opened the door to a mentor-mentee relationship.

G. What one piece of advice would you give a veteran lawyer on how to engage young lawyers?

• I would suggest that veteran lawyers mentor younger lawyers on how to build the skills they need to be able to advance in their careers. Opportunities are not the same as when veteran law-yers were starting out in practice. I think veteran lawyers should think about how to provide younger lawyers with the opportunities they need to one day become veteran lawyers.

• Take an individual interest. One of the best things a veteran lawyer did for me was come to my office and talk for half an hour about the different types of work I had been doing, who I had been working for, how I liked it and the opportunities for development in those areas. Before he left he gave me a handful of professional development ideas that he thought would be good for me – all of which were based on our conversation. Of course now, I will work for that partner whenever he asks and I regularly go to that partner for thoughts on professional and business development ideas.


• Ask them to engage! Ask for help with articles, cases; ask young lawyers to attend events and facilitate introductions. Be the one to reach out to a new lawyer that you don’t know, and main-tain an open mind when young lawyers have issues/questions.

• Again, take them places. I’d rather make up the hours later if I have a really good opportunity to learn first-hand from watching someone experienced do marketing or litigate.

• Teach the younger lawyer the important aspects of the law or the case. Communicate regarding expectations. Be supportive in case handling, but not too nice; fear is a great motivator.

• Young lawyers want to become better lawyers and are interested in learning from veteran law-yers. Veteran lawyers have information that is invaluable to a lawyer early in their career. When you are interacting with a young lawyer, make sure they understand your methods and pro-cesses. Invite them to ask you questions.

• Make the time to mentor younger lawyers.

• Engage in meaningful conversation. Talk to us because we want to know, but also be prepared to listen.

• Share things about themselves – even the most famous trial lawyer is less intimidating when you know she spills food on herself, hates popcorn, or cries at YouTube clips. Once younger lawyers can see the real person, they can better connect and .that will make working together easier.

• Stop treating “work-life balance” as a bad thing. Some of the “old guard” at my firm likes to talk about how “all these young lawyers want a ‘work-life balance,’ but I never had that.” They wax eloquent about how they worked their tails off to make the firm succeed and how they slept at the office, etc. However, these same exact attorneys will then turn around and tell you that they regret missing out on seeing their children grow up, and they wish they had spent more time with their families. Millennials get a really bad rap, and some of that is deserved. However, a lot of us are still willing to work extremely hard and do whatever it takes to see our firms suc-ceed. That being said, we do realize that there is more to life, and we want to spend time with our families. There is such thing as work-life balance, and veteran lawyers could try better to help us achieve that. After all, happy lawyers are productive lawyers.

• Start lawyers at an early stage to think about the “business” side of law. An annual business plan is a great way to get this process started. The law can be a grind, and having some perspective on personal growth and business growth is very valuable to the long road of a legal practice. One senior, successful attorney in my firm once told me that a law practice and clients are built “one brick at a time.” The law business is a slow process, but with time and patience, it can be a very rewarding career.

• Understand that the male-female gender role dichotomy is no more. Men change diapers and actually want to spend time with their kids, women have careers and do not perform 99% of the household/parenting duties anymore, and so on. I actually once had an older partner ask me, “What’s your wife doing about working...you know, long term?” I responded that she’d be work-ing, and he told me, “Maybe you ought to think about that,” (i.e. maybe you should put your wife in the kitchen). What’s hilarious is that she makes more than me!

• Talk to us – ask us questions, get to know us. Don’t just tell war stories, but identify opportu-nities and experiences that you think we might benefit from and invite us to join us at client pitches, or community or firm events.


• Respect even a young lawyer’s contribution, analysis, and viewpoint. Feeling valued as some-thing more than a Westlaw user is crucial to productivity and satisfaction.

• Keep your door open and maintain a positive can-do attitude!

• Make an effort to be interested in the fact that we are young lawyers and are “coming up” to your level. Train us to take over one day.

• Be mindful of the fact that our generation works differently and has a different mode of accom-plishing things; it doesn’t make us any less hard working. I just feel that millennials have more balance than some veteran attorneys, yet this sometimes is misconstrued or seen negatively.

• Let younger lawyers know that you welcome questions – an open environment is best for new lawyers who are learning. This will save a lot of wasted time – for the younger lawyer scrambling to try and figure out what you want/ mean and for the older lawyer on the back end who will not have to spend as much time repairing a product that could have been steered in the right direc-tion from the beginning.

• We are normal people who like normal things. Talk to us like an equal and you will find that we can actually carry on an informed conversation.

• Be interested in them. Learn about them and what makes them tick. Listen to their ideas. Truly invest in them and let them know that you are investing in them. If you see a young lawyer as a firm leader, tell him/her. Don’t assume they know.

• Be proactive in giving advice. Remember that marketing and networking is not an immediate return but a long game.

• Remember that you too were once a green young lawyer. Do not expect a young lawyer to know everything (or anything) and allow the young lawyer to feel comfortable asking any question.

• Involve young lawyers in your networking and marketing efforts – those opportunities are just as important as the opportunities to take depositions and appear in court.

• Be approachable and friendly. Organize an office event to get everyone talking and out of their offices. Also be patient – young lawyers have a different communication style and different life demands and often very different personal and professional pressures compared to what was faced by the veteran lawyers when they were younger.

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