McCoy, Harold Lee | Testimony transcript 11-20-13

Transcript of the Testimony of Harold Lee McCoy

Date: November 20, 2013Volume: I

Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: December 1, 2013

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078

Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]

Internet:

Harold Lee McCoy In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

417-358-4078

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.

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IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

HAROLD LEE McCOY

Taken on Wednesday, November 20, 2013, from 2:22 p.m. to

3:20 p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC,

626 S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper,

State of Missouri, before

SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,

a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and

for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.

Harold Lee McCoy

In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

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APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE

Loraine & Associates, LLC

4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300

Osage Beach, MO 65065

[email protected]


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S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn

Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by

SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and

afterwards reduced into typewriting.

It is further stipulated that the signature of the

witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of

said witness shall be of the same force and effect as

though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.


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I N D E X

Page/Line

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4

E X H I B I T S

(sic) - typed as spoken

(ph.) - phonetic


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1 HAROLD LEE McCOY

2 Having been first duly sworn and examined,

3 testified as follows:

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:

5 Q. Sir, for the record would you tell me your

6 name?

7 A. Harold Lee McCoy.

8 Q. And, Mr. McCoy, can you give me a little bit

9 of your background so we can identify you for

10 the Council?

11 A. I am a retired employee of the City of Joplin

12 with 46 years of service, was Public Works

13 Director and Deputy City Manager for about 30

14 years, filled in as City Manager every time

15 he left town.

16 Q. As a City Manager, in that position with the

17 City of Joplin, what is the role that a City

18 Manager should appropriately follow?

19 A. Well, I see the budget as an annual directive

20 to the Council, by the Council to the City

21 Manager, to outline the policies and scope of

22 the goals or the Council for the year. And

23 he should be carrying out the directives of

24 the Council. He can initiate things, but

25 they have to bless them or whatever.


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1 Q. Okay. So you're saying that the City Council

2 should be setting the agenda for policy

3 matters?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you believe that is occurring with this

6 City Manager?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And how do you know that, sir?

9 A. He developed his own agenda, does his own

10 thing. I still communicate with staff. He

11 tells the City Council that he has money set

12 aside for projects that the Council has never

13 endorsed, never given the approval of, and

14 says fund balances are set. And I use that

15 as an example. It is his responsibility to

16 run the City, but at the same time he has the

17 responsibility of getting the guidance from

18 the Council on a routine basis, and I don't

19 see that happening.

20 Q. And you've observed him through the nine

21 years that he's been here?

22 A. Yes, I worked with him three months before I

23 left after he came and, yes, from

24 communications with the staff and his

25 observations, yes, that's my point of view.


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1 Q. All right. Would it be fair to say do you

2 feel that the style of management that this

3 City Manager has exhibited which you believe

4 is improper as I understand it, do you

5 believe it has contributed to this split on

6 the Council and the problems that the Council

7 is having?

8 A. Definitely.

9 Q. That's a yes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you explain at all for the record later?

12 A. Yes, basically he has developed pay plans

13 that have divided the Council because of his

14 goals that he brings forth are not

15 necessarily what are broad based in the

16 community and has divided the Council. And

17 there's been Councilmen say that we have the

18 support of the influential rich people in the

19 community, one sector of the Council does

20 that, and that tends to divided the Council.

21 Q. If I can do you have an opinion as to the set

22 of Council people that have appealed to

23 so-called rich people of the community versus

24 the ones that are serving everyone in the

25 community, can you identify that sector for


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1 me?

2 A. Sure, the ones that are broad based are I'm

3 going to call the 5, which are Golden

4 Scearce, Rosenberg, the Mayor, the young lady

5 I can't think of her name.

6 Q. Raney?

7 A. Yeah, Raney. Then the others are Morris, the

8 ex-Mayor Shaw, and the other fellow.

9 Q. Woolston.

10 A. Woolston and I can't think of his name. I

11 apologize.

12 Q. I think you're talking about Glaze.

13 A. Glaze.

14 Q. And Seibert?

15 A. Seibert, right.

16 Q. So the special sector that you have described

17 as representing so-called rich as opposed to

18 the broad based group is also the group that

19 favors the City Manager?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Is that by design of the City Manager?

22 A. Yes, he recruits them and their support.

23 Q. Not necessarily to the benefit of the City or

24 the public in general then?

25 A. No, it is not.


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1 Q. And you're willing to say that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Have you known of his management style being

4 aggressive to the point where he's abusive to

5 public employees?

6 A. Yes, his point of view - I was talking to one

7 of the staff members who filled in at the

8 central garage for a short time and his

9 comment to him was, you don't discipline your

10 employees enough. He's very negative towards

11 employees.

12 Q. This would be Mr. Rohr?

13 A. Mr. Rohr. And I don't know if you've talked

14 to a rank and file person called Mike

15 Hartley. He had written a letter out there.

16 He has worked directly with the City Manager

17 on projects, capital projects, and he kind of

18 ramrods them out of the Engineering

19 Department, and has a very negative letter

20 he's written. He's retiring the first of the

21 year.

22 Q. Mr. Hartley is?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would he talk with me?

25 A. Oh, yes, I think he would talk with you.


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1 Q. How would I get hold of him?

2 A. Just call City Hall Engineering Department.

3 Q. What is his position?

4 A. Engineering Tech is his official title, but

5 he is overseeing several major construction

6 projects even when I was there and recently.

7 Q. He would be a long time employee then?

8 A. Oh, yes.

9 Q. Knowledgeable, you'd say?

10 A. Oh, yes, very knowledgeable.

11 Q. The fact that he's not an engineer, but an

12 engineer tech, would that have significance

13 to you in this regard?

14 A. Yes, because I think he's a rank and file

15 kind of employee, not a professional, and his

16 comments to Mark Rohr were I'm doing this for

17 the City, I'm not doing these things for you.

18 Mark thanked him one time doing it and

19 that's his statement to Mark. His letter

20 you'll find talks about the City Manager's

21 agenda is to promote the City Manager, not

22 anything else.

23 Q. Do you know of any other employees that their

24 actual performance has been affected by the

25 City Manager's personal agenda?


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1 A. Yes, you can talk to Steve Curry in the Parks

2 Department.

3 Q. Steve Curry?

4 A. Uh-huh, and he will explain to you about the

5 City Manager's conduct, about the development

6 of the sports complex, and the fact that he

7 had set a grand opening date and they were

8 supposed to get the facility done. And

9 recently they just spent $40,000.00 redoing

10 the tennis courts because he wouldn't wait

11 for the subgrade to dry out before they paved

12 it.

13 Q. Just a total neglect of the money involved?

14 A. Right, his attitude is I've set this date,

15 you will. I don't care about the facts.

16 Q. Who is Steve Curry?

17 A. Steve Curry is head of the Maintenance

18 Division in Parks.

19 Q. Did we talk to him? No. How do you spell

20 that last name?

21 A. C-U-R-R-Y.

22 Q. You think he'll talk to me?

23 A. Yeah, he'll talk to you.

24 Q. Who else might I talk with that would talk

25 concerning this agenda of the City Manager's?


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1 A. You can talk to Jack Schaller.

2 Q. I have.

3 A. Okay. He will tell you that. Have you

4 talked to Steve Cope?

5 Q. No.

6 A. I would suggest you might want to talk to

7 him. He was the building official and in my

8 opinion was well qualified and the City

9 Manager went after him, well, shortly after

10 the City Manager came because Steve Cope told

11 him program wouldn't work for redevelopment

12 because Steve had been involved in similar

13 programs before, and shortly after that he

14 went after Cope.

15 Q. Do you know the City financial person?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How does she fit into this pattern? That's

18 Leslie.

19 A. Leslie Jones. Well, different name, Haase

20 now. She's had to carry out the City

21 Manager's desires. At one point I would

22 suggest as you would suggest to the Council

23 that they have an auditor's transfer of funds

24 to capital improvement accounts. The City

25 has numerous funding accounts and they


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1 transfer money like from transportation funds

2 to a central capital and leave it there or

3 they loan money from different funds and they

4 don't always get transferred back like they

5 should, and that means it can be misused or

6 used for projects not what they were intended

7 for.

8 Q. You've been a City Manager in this very City.

9 A. Right.

10 Q. I've already heard something about a culvert

11 at the fire station. Do you know anything

12 about that?

13 A. No, that would have been afterwards.

14 Q. And I've talked with Leslie. She seems to

15 justify some of these things.

16 A. Well, I'm talking about millions of dollars,

17 I'm not talking about a single culvert. I do

18 know that the Public Works Department had to

19 go out and bail out both new fire stations

20 and rework the subgrade, put storm water

21 things in them, but the Public Works did that

22 because they were, quote/unquote, over

23 budget.

24 Q. So you're using public people to build what

25 normally would be contracted out?


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1 A. Contract, right.

2 Q. And that was because of the expenditure --

3 A. Right, was over budget.

4 Q. -- was over budget. Are you suggesting that

5 Leslie is not properly watching these

6 transfer of funds by the City Manager?

7 A. I don't think she has a choice. I think she

8 has to do that or she won't have her job.

9 Q. You would recommend that City auditor

10 position, City finance maybe not be under the

11 City Manager? Is that my understanding?

12 A. No, I'm suggesting that the outside auditor

13 go back and trace all these transfers that

14 are taking place, and this is a lot of work

15 by the way to do this, and see if the money

16 is being used properly.

17 Q. And your belief is that the funds are not

18 being fully repaid?

19 A. Or misused.

20 Q. And would these be funds that were created as

21 a reason for special taxes or something like

22 that?

23 A. All of them are special taxes that come in to

24 an assigned fund and then transferred out.

25 It's not unusual to make temporary loans from


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1 one fund to another because of cash flow, but

2 it should be transferred back and I don't

3 think it's happening.

4 Q. That misuse of funds actually would give the

5 person in charge of that to the City Manager

6 more money than he budgeted?

7 A. That's exactly right, and let him do projects

8 that he couldn't fund otherwise.

9 Q. Is there a possibility in your opinion based

10 on your prior situation as being a City

11 Manager in this City, and just your knowledge

12 of the community, is there a chance that the

13 City of Joplin could be running into severe

14 financial problems in the future?

15 A. The City has the general fund which is the

16 major fund that runs the police, fire,

17 general administration, and those type

18 things. Prior to the Public Safety Tax being

19 passed a few years ago it's been in trouble

20 since 1983 because we get with the property

21 tax for all practical purposes and trade

22 property tax for a transportation sales tax

23 which took money out of the general fund and

24 transferred it over here for roads, and that

25 fund has been in trouble since that time.


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1 Leslie will tell the Council from time to

2 time they don't have money. In that fund

3 they don't have money to do things that they

4 want to do and that's where I think that the

5 City Manager is transferring money around to

6 get his way on certain things. And if the

7 police and fire continue on their present

8 path long term I see the Public Safety Tax

9 not being able to carry them 15 years down

10 the road or 20.

11 Q. So you will see a financial problem?

12 A. I was here when the first sales tax passed,

13 they went and build many capital projects and

14 tried to catch payroll salaries more

15 up-to-date, but in time the growth of the

16 City is greater than the increase in the tax

17 so you end up in a dire situation down the

18 road. You outgrow your revenue.

19 Q. Because of the service?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. Is there any long range planning? Is anybody

22 looking at that long range planning aspect?

23 A. No, there is not.

24 Q. And certainly the City Manager isn't?

25 A. No, in fact --


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1 Q. He should be, though.

2 A. In fact, my last budget I worked on I showed

3 the Council a 3 year projection out because

4 my last year here the Council was in dire -

5 we had to cut out all capital expenditures

6 because the previous City Manager had spent

7 14 million dollars more a year for 3 years

8 straight then what our revenues were.

9 Q. What's your explanation of what this guy

10 spent, the City Manager?

11 A. I've not went down and looked at the detailed

12 budget, but I think that he has spent a lot

13 of money in the central business district,

14 promoting downtown which is what he does

15 typically in most communities, he promotes

16 downtown. But his goal is to build a Taj

17 Mahal at 1st and Main which is big money.

18 Q. What is that 1st and Main going to be? Is

19 that the theater?

20 A. Yes, theater and the rest of it, yes.

21 Q. You don't believe that makes economic sense?

22 A. It's a foolish investment. It's a poor

23 location. Everything you want to say about

24 it, it's next to a railroad track, a main

25 line railroad with 20 trains a day through


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1 there, there's 2 passing tracks sitting there

2 so trains stop and idle there, start up and

3 stop. It's just a terrible idea.

4 Q. This is the City Manager's idea?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that being pushed by Wallace-Bajjali?

7 A. No, I think the City Manager had this before.

8 I don't think Wallace-Bajjali -

9 Wallace-Bajjali's thing was to push the

10 library out downtown and do the medical

11 facility, but that's a dead issue now.

12 Q. They made money on it, though?

13 A. Oh, yes. Wallace-Bajjali is making money,

14 period, no matter what that is. They're not

15 going to lose money.

16 Q. Are you of the opinion that regardless of

17 cause, you know, taking adverse cause out of

18 the equation there's two entities that I'm

19 thinking of, Wallace-Bajjali being one, and

20 there's a contract provision to buy them out

21 rather than let them, or you can find cause

22 against them?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. Would you be of the opinion right now it

25 would be better to buy them out and get them


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1 out of the community than to continue the

2 relationship with Wallace-Bajjali?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would that also be the same opinion whether

5 we could find cause or not on Mark Rohr,

6 would it be your opinion to go ahead and buy

7 his contract out under worst case basis

8 rather than try to sit around and wait for

9 cause to fire him?

10 A. I think that he's been here nine years. It's

11 time for him to go.

12 Q. So you would say, hey, don't worry about the

13 cost there because the costs are going to be

14 so excessive the way it's going that it would

15 be better to pay the costs up front and get

16 rid of these entities?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that opinion is rendered to certainty

19 within your profession, is that true?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. As a City Manager?

22 A. Right, and my point here is Wallace-Bajjali

23 hasn't accomplished a dad gum thing.

24 Q. Where did they come from and who put them?

25 Do you know if Mr. Woolston was involved in


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1 analyzing whether they ought to come here?

2 My understanding he did some due diligence on

3 that.

4 A. Two Council members went to Texas to check

5 them out and I don't think their due

6 diligence was very --

7 Q. Who went?

8 A. Woolston, I think, and what's the lady's name

9 again?

10 Q. Would it be Trish Raney?

11 A. Trish Raney, yes.

12 Q. And they both - certainly Woolston has

13 benefited by that?

14 A. Yes, he has. Depending whose opinion it's

15 definitely a conflict of interest, his

16 activities.

17 Q. The perception of what he's doing, do you

18 believe that falls under scrutiny as well as

19 whether he's taking money on the side? I

20 mean it is the perception of conflict?

21 A. Yes, it is very definifitley so.

22 Q. And in a way, sir, would it be said that the

23 City requires 9 Councilmen?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. And we don't have 9 Councilmen in many


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1 instances here because Woolston, if he's

2 involved, he's taking himself out?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. So the City is not really benefiting from the

5 9 Councilmen?

6 A. He's not representing the people. He's

7 representing his own interests.

8 Q. And you believe that also to a certainty as a

9 City Manager?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you think that my job here is greater than

12 just looking at whether Woolston has gotten

13 any gain or whether Scearce has never rented

14 to a gambler, convicted gambler, you believe

15 my job is greater than that, don't you?

16 A. Oh, definitely so. I would like to see you

17 research the idea that Mark Rohr is abusing

18 his spouse, the City Attorney has the name of

19 the officer that made the call to the house,

20 and I would encourage you to talk to him. I

21 don't have his name.

22 Q. Do you know who that was ever? He's under --

23 A. He's under the Police Chief.

24 Q. Is the Police Chief a potential problem?

25 A. In my opinion the Police Chief covered for


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1 Mark on the incident, because people out in

2 public think that Mark is an abuser.

3 Q. Have you ever heard of Mark abusing his wife

4 even in City Hall? Have you heard that?

5 A. If you would talk to Vicki Coots, his

6 secretary, she can answer that question

7 better than anybody.

8 Q. Will she talk with him?

9 A. Sure, she'll talk with you.

10 Q. I've been advised that she wouldn't.

11 A. You just tell her that I would recommend she

12 talk.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. And that she is under protection.

15 Q. Yeah. Could you help me maybe ask her if she

16 --

17 A. Yeah, I'll call her.

18 Q. Because if I call that may cause her

19 problems.

20 A. I'll take care of it.

21 Q. Okay. If you don't mind because I'm deeply

22 interested in that topic. To be honest with

23 you I didn't start out with that topic and

24 it's come up. It's come up consistently and

25 people aren't jumping right out here to tell


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1 me that either.

2 A. Well, the people in what I call the second

3 floor talk about seeing bruises on her. Have

4 you talked to Lynn Onstott? She's the Public

5 Information Officer.

6 Q. Never heard of her. Lynn Onstott?

7 A. Uh-huh.

8 Q. Public Information?

9 A. Uh-huh, her office is right across the hall

10 from the City Manager.

11 Q. Do you think she'll talk to me?

12 A. Yes. They hate Rohr. I'll just be honest

13 with you. In fact, if you go back and look

14 he's gotten rid of every department head

15 except one.

16 Q. Which is Lane Roberts?

17 A. No, there was a Chief before him and Lane

18 came in after that. The Public Health

19 Director is the only guy that's left.

20 Q. Who is that?

21 A. Names go.

22 Q. Well, let me direct your attention to

23 something else and it will come to you.

24 You're telling me that every head of every

25 department since Mark came has been replaced


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1 except one?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. And that's not the norm, I'll guarantee you

5 that.

6 Q. Once again your experience?

7 A. Right, and I will tell you if I'd stayed I'd

8 have been fired. I'll just tell you that up

9 front.

10 Q. Your what?

11 A. I'll tell you up front I would have been

12 fired if I'd have stayed.

13 Q. You would have?

14 A. Yes, I would have challenged and you cannot

15 challenge the man. If you say you're not

16 supportive of his position you're gone one

17 way or the other. That's this trumped up

18 deal in the Public Works Department.

19 Q. Ms. Haase has also supported Rohr on that

20 point that Cope needed to be removed.

21 A. I know, but my point very simply is the

22 software program they're talking about no one

23 knew about, and you're talking about the

24 Public Works Department during that era

25 probably had a budget of over 200 million


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1 dollars. And I'm not condoning them not

2 doing the billing. What I'm saying it's so

3 insignificant overall to the operation it's

4 not a major issue. I mean as I understand

5 there's money missing in the Police

6 Department right now and nobody is starting

7 the headlines over that.

8 Q. How much money is missing in the Police

9 Department?

10 A. I heard $6,500.00.

11 Q. Do you have any knowledge of where it is?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Maybe I need to talk to Mr. Lane.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you think Mr. Lane would be forthcoming or

16 is he too much in the pocket of Mr. Rohr?

17 A. My opinion Rohr is in his debt for him

18 covering for him, and whether you can under

19 sworn testimony will he talk, I don't know.

20 Q. Let me ask you this question. Were you aware

21 that Lane Roberts allowed some $35,000.00,

22 $40,000.00, something like that, to be not

23 deducted from his payroll? Were you aware of

24 that?

25 A. No.


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1 Q. That just disappeared. It has been paid back

2 according to Ms. Haase, but that was standard

3 operating procedure not to discipline him for

4 that. Do you believe that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. I mean every paycheck that came out would

7 have had deductions on the bottom of it?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. So if there's no deduction one would think

10 one would notice that?

11 A. You would call that to their attention.

12 Q. You would think so.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I kind of thought that myself, but I've never

15 seen one of your paychecks.

16 A. All you get is a stub and you get direct

17 deposit, so you get a breakdown of what your

18 payroll is.

19 Q. Well, he knew he was getting a pension,

20 didn't he?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I mean everybody does. You weren't aware of

23 that?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you think that should have been at least


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1 brought to the attention of the Council,

2 shouldn't it?

3 A. I would think that internally a memo should

4 have went to the Council explaining what was

5 going on and that the situation had been

6 corrected and paid back.

7 Q. Would it be proper for a City Manager to put

8 a notation in that employee's file to that

9 effect? I mean it almost seems certain

10 dishonesty.

11 A. Yes. I think there should have been a note

12 put in the file to that effect, and there

13 should have been a written resolution of the

14 situation which should have been filed in the

15 employee's file. There should have been a

16 written document detailing how this was going

17 to be resolved.

18 Q. Well, I kind of thought that myself when I

19 heard it, but Leslie just kind of said that's

20 just standard operating procedure just to let

21 somebody pay that back and that was just the

22 end of it. She took the blame for that.

23 A. Well, she also when we annexed an area down

24 southwest of Joplin called Petro out there,

25 she forgot to notify them to withhold sales


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1 tax, and the business had to cough it up

2 themselves rather than --

3 Q. Was she disciplined for that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. That would have been Rohr's?

6 A. Yes. But you've got to understand, she is

7 his girl, or gal, however you want to put it,

8 and she does what he wants.

9 Q. She also says she's somewhat intimidated by

10 him.

11 A. I think that's a mild way to put it. I think

12 he intimidates everybody. That's his

13 management style.

14 Q. Do you believe that the vote to rid

15 themselves of Mr. Rohr that just went down

16 here about a month ago, I mean can you

17 explain how that could happen that they

18 didn't get rid of him when they had the

19 opportunity?

20 A. It's my understanding that the Mayor got a

21 loan or funding to open a restaurant through

22 the Chamber. No ill gotten money, but

23 there's a feeling that she was in debt,

24 indebted to him. There was also discussion

25 that some of her family members have been in


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1 jail and a phone call to the City Manager got

2 them out or whatever. I don't have that by

3 hard fact, I'm saying that's the rumor mill.

4 Q. Okay. Do you think that the Mayor is in a

5 position now to revisit that vote?

6 A. I think she ought to step down if that vote

7 takes place and let somebody else conduct the

8 meeting, and it's my understanding that if

9 she had voted there would have been another

10 Councilman vote with her, the vote with the 5

11 to make 6.

12 Q. Who would that have been?

13 A. Glaze. Glaze went to Council members and

14 told them if you'll support me on some issues

15 I want I'll support you on dismissal of Rohr.

16 Q. What is this matter that he wants supporting

17 on? Is there something illicit to that?

18 A. No, it's not illicit. He wanted some issues

19 like he wants a financial review of the City

20 and he wants --

21 Q. What's wrong with that?

22 A. Nothing with that. And he wanted several

23 issues to be reviewed by the Charter

24 Committee. And there was disagreement with

25 some of the issues that he had on it.


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1 Q. On the Charter?

2 A. On the Charter, but they're a long ways from

3 going to a vote.

4 Q. Let me ask you this question. This Charter,

5 shouldn't the Police Department be out from

6 under the City Manager? I mean this seems

7 like it's a bit of social abuse here.

8 A. Police Departments are always a problem

9 organization. We've had City Councils, the

10 Mayor go to the City Manager and say if you

11 don't fire the SOB I'm going to fire you and

12 hire somebody that will fire him. I'll tell

13 you that for a fact. And the City Manager

14 left. There's also an opportunity for abuse

15 in the Police Department indirectly reporting

16 to Council and you know from your past

17 experience that Police Departments are held

18 up higher on the platter and think they - if

19 he can convince the Council that they need

20 all the bells and whistles and the --

21 Q. Yeah, all the toys.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Lane is going to retire?

24 A. I heard January he's supposed to be out.

25 Q. And he's told me he didn't want to get


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1 involved to talk anymore about Councilman

2 Scearce. He's not going to tell me anything.

3 And if I recommend that he needs to tell me

4 of course under Garrity I can make him do

5 that, but the only thing that means anything

6 is if I go back to the Council and say the

7 guy won't talk, what do you want to do about

8 it, and they say nothing then we're done, you

9 know.

10 A. I don't think that will happen.

11 Q. I don't think he'll talk is what I'm saying.

12 I think he'll just retire. I think that's

13 what he's looking for. That's what he told

14 me. He said he's not going to talk about

15 Scearce. I don't know if he's got anything

16 to talk about to be honest with you, but I

17 think the fact that he doesn't talk gives

18 this Rohr additional strength because there's

19 something that the Police Chief won't talk

20 about. Do you see what I'm saying?

21 A. I think he will incriminate himself on two or

22 three issues if he does that?

23 Q. Really?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The Police Chief?


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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Like what?

3 A. I think the cover-up of the spousal abuse,

4 how the City Manager got the information on

5 Mr. Bill, and these other things, you know.

6 Q. Let me ask you this. How am I going to find

7 what policeman that you think I need to talk

8 to?

9 A. Call the City Attorney. He's got the name.

10 Q. Head does?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Let's do that right now. Do you mind if I

13 take a break? Are you in a hurry?

14 A. No. That's fine.

15 (Short break taken 3:00 to 3:11 p.m., back on

16 record)

17 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) You said that Mr. Rohr has

18 suggested to the staff that nobody contacts

19 Wallace-Bajjali except through him?


21 Q. So the City Attorney can't make the phone

22 call or anything, huh?

23 A. Well, technically the City Attorney is not

24 the City Manager's employee, but the rest of

25 the staff, the planners, the engineers,


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1 they're not supposed to contact, they're

2 supposed to go through the City Manager.

3 Q. So really City Attorney Head would not know

4 about many of these meetings?


6 Q. So it keeps him in the dark and keeps a legal

7 oversight out of all these meetings, is that

8 right?

9 A. That's right. And then he won't know about

10 the problem areas until way down the road.

11 Q. Until they're problems?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. You know as a former City Manager that's not

14 the way to use the legal profession?

15 A. No, they have to play a key role in

16 everything.

17 Q. Whether you like them or not. I mean if

18 they're a detriment it's not an issue, it's

19 the viewpoint that they look at.

20 A. Well, and again I always felt they were a

21 great sounding board, just common sense

22 approach. Whether it was a legal question or

23 not they are a fresh point of view to bounce

24 things off of.

25 Q. By training they're very skeptical people.


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1 Negative, I guess. Mr. Rohr told me Mr. Head

2 was negative, you know, on new ideas and I

3 kind of thought that was a strange comment,

4 but that was his justification for keeping

5 him out of what he called new matters.

6 A. Right.

7 Q. That's not proper, is it?

8 A. No, it's not proper. In fact, recent issue,

9 the master developer brought something

10 forward and the City Attorney says my reading

11 of the tax code you can't do that.

12 Q. And that was the end of it?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Hopefully?

15 A. Hopefully.

16 Q. So what I'm hearing is that City Attorney

17 Head has told me that he's mentioned to the

18 Council that he is not included in a lot of

19 the meetings particularly with

20 Wallace-Bajjali in the early days. Have you

21 heard that comment?

22 A. Yes, I've heard that from Brian himself.

23 Q. And from a former City Manager's standpoint

24 that would be improper?

25 A. I think that's totally improper and you've


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1 got have them in the loophole.

2 Q. You're aware that your statements are going

3 to probably find their way into my report?

4 You know that?

5 A. I understand that.

6 Q. And so I'm looking at you as an expert in the

7 City Manager job because you have done that

8 before.

9 A. Right.

10 Q. I mean you would know more what a City

11 Manager is supposed to do than I would

12 because you are one. You know what I'm

13 saying?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So I rely heavily on your opinion and that's

16 why I'm asking. I'm not just after your

17 comments, I mean what we're seeking here from

18 you is these are legal opinions, these are

19 opinions that you would make in court under

20 oath?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. Okay. I appreciate very much your help in

23 this regard. Do you have an opinion, I don't

24 think I got to this, but do you have an

25 opinion on Woolston's involvement with coming


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1 before Planning & Zoning Boards and picking

2 up applications for a partner on projects?

3 A. I think it is on the - it's probably

4 improper, but that's going to be - as the

5 City Attorney once said you don't even want

6 the appearance of wrongdoing.

7 Q. So the point is why would a Councilman go

8 down and pick up a zoning application change

9 for Mr. Kuehn? Why would he do that unless

10 it was to influence the person that's the

11 zoning authority that he has interest somehow

12 in this matter?

13 A. I think he's trying to use his position to

14 influence.

15 Q. That's what that would be, isn't it?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. And that would be improper?

18 A. That's improper. You can't do that.

19 Q. So not only is we're losing the supervision

20 of one of our Councilmen when these conflicts

21 occur, but we're also perhaps some how

22 influencing zoning personnel or applications

23 or something that special treatment should be

24 given those particular applications? Do you

25 agree with that?


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1 A. That would be the appearance. Even if it's

2 not happening that is the appearance.

3 Q. To the employees?

4 A. And to the public.

5 Q. And to the public. Mr. Kuehn won't come down

6 and talk to me. Do you find that unusual?

7 A. Doesn't surprise me. Doesn't surprise me at

8 all.

9 Q. If there is something - I can't make him come

10 here, he's not a City employee.

11 A. Right.

12 Q. But the point is if he reads what my mission

13 was in the contract I was supposed to look

14 into the potential self dealings and problems

15 that Woolston would have particularly with

16 the company that Kuehn - Kuehn, is that his

17 name, yeah - owns or is involved in, and once

18 Mr. Kuehn read that he wouldn't even talk to

19 me. He left and got his attorney and his

20 attorney called me and then the attorney said

21 he's not going to come back. So do you think

22 there's any implication for that or is it

23 just we ignore that issue?

24 A. Well, I think by him not willing to talk

25 gives more credence to the conflict of


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1 interest.

2 Q. You believe that's a proper inference?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Because I was thinking that, you know, let me

5 get on, you don't have to incriminate

6 yourself, but everybody coming in voluntarily

7 I don't see why he wouldn't. So that's my

8 thinking. Do you think I'm right on that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. I appreciate you bouncing off because

11 I've been kind of puzzled by that issue. Are

12 there any other thoughts that you have that

13 we have not discussed today?

14 A. No, I don't think so. I pretty well covered

15 them.

16 Q. Do you believe that Steve Curry, Steve Cope -

17 even if Steve Cope has some other negative

18 issues with his employment according to

19 Leslie you still believe that the improper

20 management technique to drop the tidbit in

21 the newspaper against Steve and his upper

22 management people is an improper method?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It's meant to intimidate and to scare?

25 A. Plus it gives the insinuation that they


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1 personally profited, which was not the case

2 at all.

3 Q. All right. And Curry, what do you think he

4 can tell me?

5 A. Tell you about his personal dealings with

6 Rohr on a central garage after the head

7 mechanic was fired, because he filled in for

8 a short period.

9 Q. Do you know anything about Mr. Rohr canceling

10 a Goodyear contract to purchase tires because

11 he didn't get what he wanted?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You don't know anything about that, okay.

14 All right, sir, have we covered it?

15 A. Yes, we've covered it.

16 Q. I really appreciate you coming in here. I

17 hope that some day that some of your thoughts

18 will come across to the Council because I

19 think they need to, don't you?

20 A. I think so. I think after nine years it's

21 time for him to go.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. Thank you.

24 Q. Thank you, sir.

25 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED)


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1


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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI

ss.

COUNTY OF JASPER

I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the

State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the

foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the

20th day of November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was

examined. That examination was then taken by me by

steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn

Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set

out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith

returned.

I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or

relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of

either party or of the attorney of either party, or

otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

_________________________

SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

McCoy, Harold Lee | Testimony transcript 11-20-13

Documents

Transcript of McCoy, Harold Lee | Testimony transcript 11-20-13