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SPECIAL REPORTS + MAHARASHTRA - INTERVIEWIBAL THACKERAY

I "Yes, I'm the remote control" NOTHING in his life has affectedShivSena chief Bal Thackeray, 69 , asmuchas the re- cent death of his wije Meenatai, whom he used to address as "Ma". So much so, that a man whom Maharashtra Chief Minister Manohar Joshi and other followers de- scribe as 'Hindu Hriday Samrat' has now turnedan agnostic. But even after discard- ing his rudrakshmalas and removingpic- tures and idols of Ganesh from his house, Thackeray has not forsaken his identity as a belligerent Hindu leader Surrounded by images of his wije, the Sena leader spoke to Senior Associate Editor M. RAHMAN about his hold over the Maharashtra Govern- ment, the rise of his son and nephew, rela- tions with the BJP, swadeshi and other issues. Excerpts from the interview:

Q. Wil l the Shiv Sena-BJP Govern- ment survive thefull term?

A. Yes, I'm quite sure about that. What they (the Congress-I) are doing is scaremongering, largely because of the court cases involving Manohar Joshi and four or five others. But no matter what happens, there is no danger to us because even if our number in the As- sembly gets reduced, there are around 1 7 to 20 independent MLAs who are completely with us.

Q. But doubts have also arisen because of your warning to inde- pendent MLAs t o stop "anti-government ac- tivities ".

A. I warned two or three of them, not all independents. It is like this-when I say something about Bangladeshis, Bangla Muslims, Jyoti Basu al- ways feels that I'm against Bengalis. That is the mistake they are re- peating here.

Q. Do you think ManoharJoshi will last aful l term?

A. He's doing very well. He's a very enthusiastic person, why should I disturb him unless something happens? There are two or three people who are also competent, but he's definitely more competent.

Q. But you keep pulling h i m u p publicly.

A. As far as the Government's poli-

'Even if Joshi is the chief

minister, he has to consult me as far as the

Government's policies are concerned.'

cies are concerned, even if he's the chief minister, he has to consult me. That he also knows. The airport MOU he signed with the Hindujas, for instance. My problem is that my people are poor, their immediate need is not an airport. Hous- ing, food and water are the priorities.

Q. So you hold the remote control i n your hand?

A. Yes, I am the remote control. Re- mote controls are the latest develop- ment in science. When the Congress was in power, nobody criticised the way Sharad Pawar would be summoned by the high command in Delhi. So why at- tackmy remote control. Remote control must be there because it is a Shiv Sena andnjp government, and we will control it from bothsides.Thechief minister has certain rights, like changing officials and bureaucrats, but when it comes to policies, if something goes wrong, I'llbe heldresponsible.

Q. Even appointments like that of the commissioner of Bombay Police are decided by you.

A. I can make suggestions. I've also studied the city, so to saveMumbaiIhave theright to say who is the right man tobe police commissioner.

Q. In your paper Saamna you've strongly criticised bu- reaucrats.

A. I'm definitely blunt about my thoughts. I will not tol- erate any bureaucrat who's pro-Pawar. If I come to know that any official is pro-Pawar, 1'11 see to it that he's kicked out. Bureaucrats should not play politics.

Q. The Sena and BP are also having prob- lems i n the coalition.

A. That phase is over now. A.But youcriticisedthe

BJP over the Kashmirpolls issue. A. On Kashmir, they opposed elec-

tions, but also said if elections take place they'll take part in it. If you ask me, 1'11 say, no elections till theKashmiiiPandits can go back and cast their votes. That's why I said the BJP is trying to eat sugar and chillies together.

Q. How would you deal with the Kashmir issue?

A. We should give the army a free hand. Now it's like giving them Sten guns without bullets. Pakistani extrem- ists have encroached upon our land, andit is our right to retaliate and protect our sovereign state. Shoot them, kill them. No dialogue, not even withYasin Malilt. People must feel the pinch that there is a government. Or we are help- less, raped by everybody. We have a prime minister, we have a home minis- ter, so why should we move like orphans without parents?

Q. You also called swadeshi "rubbish ".

A. Swadeshi must also have quality, not just quantity.You can't make rubber chappals with cardboard inside. First think of the product, then quality and then quantity. If you stretch the swadeshi idea too far, then you'll have to live in darkness, because the

INIIIA TODAY OECEMBLK 15.1995

electric bulb was invented by Edison. A foreign product should not kill my oroduct. To that extent swadeshi makes sense. Otherwise it is a multina- tional world today and one needs collaborations.

Q. Mailohar Joshi says foreign in- vestment is welcome irl all sectors, in- cluding ro~zsu~~~erprodt ic ts .

A. I would l i e to see what are these consumer products. If it's going to be for soap and things like that then it can't be allowed. I will not welcome any investor who is going to kill our industry here. I don't want history to be repeated. The East India Company came here for com- merce, and then they ruled the country for 150 years.

Q. W h y do you keep irlsistiilg that Pakistan should not play irz I~ldia?

A. Because they are not true players. They declare thatwhen they win against India. Hindustan, it's a victory of Islam. and when they start a match, they de- clare it's jehad against Hindustan. So I take them to be not sportsmen but my enemies, and an enemy cannot be al- lowed to step into my motherland.

Q. You [wed to criticise Cotlgress

leaders for propagating dynastic rule, but now you areprojectirlg your son Uddhav andnephew Raj as party leaders.

A. There is no at- tempt to project Ud- dhav or Raj in any way. They felt that mine was a lone fight, and that if they could contribute a little, it would be useful for me. If I wanted to make Uddhav a minis- ter, I could have done it a long time ago. But the man who himself avoided becoming chief minister cannot be accused of propagating dy- nastic rule.

Q. Dawood is the prime accused in the Bombay blasts case, and Raj has been quoted as saying that this Govern- ment should finish him.

A. I amnot going to discuss this mat- ter at all because I don't know whose hand was in the blasts. If tomorrow it is proved that even Sanjay Dutt had a hand in it, I will say hang him. If Dawood was

'I take the Pakistan cricket team to be my enemy, and an enemy cannot

be allowed to step into my motherland!'

involved. then the Gov- ernment should show some gumption and nab him with Interpol's help. Hang him if he was involved, and if he wasn't, release him.

Q. A weekly has re- ported that your name isat the topof Dawood's hit list.

A. My Shiv Sainiks have thrown a chal- lenge to Dawood that if you want, come here. rather than sit in Dubai and hire some s~ipari

killers from there. I am well protected by my Shiv Sainiks, they are my real bullet- proof jacket. They will not allow any- body to create any mischief.

Q. The person who issued the threat maintaiiledthatevenlsraeliprime min- ister YitzhakRabin was killedinspite of heavy security.

A. If that is so, then it can apply to Dawood also. What guaranteecan you give? When you point a finger at some- body, three fingers point back at you. and if anything happens to me this whole country will go up in flames. You can put it in writing and I will sign it. There will be anarchy. It is not that easy to finish me. And if they do it, Da- wood or anybody, we have a human bomb which will blast the country. And the civil war will start not in 1998. as I havepredicted. but immedi- ately. I have told my boys to be ready. They will go berserk if anything hap- pens to me. If they touch me it will flare up throughout the country. It will be disastrous for everybody, in- cluding Dawood.

Q. Is it true that you have turned an agnostic?

A. My wife was so pious. so devoted. soreligious.Butitcame tonothing. After shewent to aGaneshChaturthifunction in Bombay. we forgot the emergency bot- tle of her medicine and went to Karjat. Here was a test for gods and goddesses. It was the duty of God to remind her of the emergency bottle. If not, then you and your faith are led astray. When she needed it, the medicine was not there and we lost her. If the gods do not come to your help when you need them, then what's the use. I have removed all pic- tures of Ganesh from my house. But her picture will be there.

Q. But how can you still call your- self a Hindu leader?

A. My Hinduism is nationalism, not communalism. I am proud of being a Hindu.