lets start our discussion with understanding the Natural archetype and its evolutionary intentions as it relates to human

consciousness.. Then we can get into how souls evolve through the archetype and the various ways it can be dysfunctional thru

karmic experience and collective distortion.

Id like to start with this quote from Martin Buber (Austrian born Jewish philosopher)

Egos appear by setting themselves apart from other egos; persons appear by entering into relation to other

persons. Martin Buber

This captures one of the core intentions of the Libra archetype, to become a socialized being.

In the natural wheel of the zodiac Libra is the first sign that initiates (Cardinal) consciousness into the transpersonal upper half

of the chart. The personal ego self is formed and refined in the lower half of the chart and after the adjustments made in Virgo,

the self emerges above the horizon to grow beyond its limitations. Thus, Libra is a sign of objectification, learning to really

know and hear others viewpoints, understand their needs etc..and learning about oneself through relationship (comparison /

contrast / relativity)..

Libra is ruled by Venus in (what I call) her outer nature. The inner side of Venus is expressed thru her rulership of Taurus: our

relationship to ourselves, which directly affects our ability to relate to others. This also may be another way of understanding

Venus in her changing cycle as morning star (yang) and evening star (yin). Ideally, when our relationship to ourselves (Taurus)

contains a healthy dose of self-worth and we have the self-sufficiency to identify and fulfill our personal needs, this is naturally

reflected in the way we enter relationships; not looking for someone to fulfill us but to share of ourselves in equality.

Relationships become the focus in Libra and the evolutionary intention of this archetype is to learn equal relatedness. Venus as

ruler of the heart chakra also contains this natural truth that we say so commonly, you cant truly love someone else, until you

love yourself I do believe that the law of attraction is also part of Venuss rulership here, as her natural expression of beauty

and grace commonly associated with Libra.

JWG points out that Libra is commonly misunderstood as inherently balanced, when in fact it is evolving towards balance and of

itself represents extremity. By swinging between extreme opposites, like a pendulum, balance is eventually found. This desire

for balance is also expressed in Libra as seeking, harmony , equanimity and peace.

Libra as the sign that covers the descendant of the chart naturally also represents the Persona or Mask self. The ascendant of

the chart (Naturally covered by Aries) represents the instinctual self while the descendant is the face we wear when we go into

society and is created with more consciousness and thru subconscious social conditioning.

Ok lots to be said about just those few points, so lets start there again with reflections upon the Natural or one might say

empowered Librian Archetype.

i, wanted to participate on this thread. What comes to mind for me about the Libra archetype is the issue of giving and also

receiving. It seems to me that in an empowered expression of this archetype the person would be able to withhold giving in

situations that only promote a dependency upon him or herself, and also truly know what another person needs, not what he or

she thinks the other person needs (listening to the reality of others as it exists for them).

In other words, so often in the archetype, because of an underlying need to be needed, the person does not know how to truly

give to others in a way that does not sustain a dependency upon themselves, and only perpetuates the experience of not having

their own legitimate needs meet because of the mutual codependency (projected needs and expectations) that is created by such

a dynamic (this creates the extremes and imbalances within the Libra archetype). The person may also not be able to receive

what comes their way because of their own unconscious projected needs and expectations (displaced emotions) and may feel

that no matter how much they give they are not given to in ways that they truly need. Again, it is the issue of equal giving and

receiving, and the underlying need to be needed that need to be address in order to create equality and balance within

relationships (purge the extremes). In an empowered state, the Libra archetype will manifest as a person who has strong and

healthy boundaries within relationships (knowing when to give and when not to), and would not change or adapt (compromise or

compensate) or his or her natural identity within relationships or society in order to gain acceptance or approval. The person

could maintain his or identity within relationships and in society in this way, and serve as a natural counselor to others who

knows how to give to others in the ways that are truly needed.

Devai Patricia and Deva,

We always talk about Libra in one-to-one "relationships" - but I thought another expression of Libran empowerment could be how

one deals with others in a group situation, of any size.

A well developed Libran would naturally see the "different perspectives" of others - the ability to see many different points of

view. There would be a natural acceptance and enjoyment of diversity, that would engender a feeling of goodwill among the

group.

In this way, the Libran archetype is in line with the Natural Law of "sharing, giving and inclusion" since it does not seek to

dominate with it's own ideas, but is willing to really listen, and to accept the variety and diversity of ideas...so that everyone gets

a chance to express themselves - and each individual's particular point of view is respected.

For this reason, for example, I imagine that this quality of "acceptance" would work rather well in a group situation, so that

harmony, balance, grace and a spirit of cooperation is maintained. Of course, this quality would be essential for peace in the

socialized world.

I guess this is why Saturn (organization, structure) is said to be exalted in the sign of Libra.

Let's hear from the others! hanks for the clarification for Libra/Aquarius.

Libra seeks involvement with a wide variety of people - not all at once like in a group situation - but rather with separate

individuals. This can lead to a great variety of friends, and to intimate and committed relationships.

Libra learns about its own individuality through a compelling need to compare its own beliefs, values, and personal nature with

the diversity of many other individuals.k so lets start to look at Libra as it relates to the individual expression and how it gets

complicated or distorted based on personal karmas and/or collective experience.

My personal observations show me that two main themes arise, Co-dependency

and Denial.

Lets start with co-dependency .

Co-dependency is generally a learned way of relating that stems certainly from

prior life conditions and early familial conditioning. At the heart of this complex is

the idea or belief that love cannot be given and received freely, but is based on

conditions I need to change or you need to change.most commonly

expressed as I need to change you. The person who engages in relationship

with this as their leading edge is usually acting from a subconscious need to be

needed. Relating back to Venus as the ruler of Taurus something is amiss in

their relationship to themselves! There are a lot of psychological dynamics at

work here. Projection of suppressed or subconscious needs: a compulsive

adaptability ( often a long karmic history involved, of conforming to others

expectations) and forming unrealistic images of those we relate to (not seeing

them for who they are, but who one wants them to be).

Im going to quote from my Libra chapter on this.. Basically because I wrote it

already and no need to write it again

(Start Quote)

When Libra is a part of the karmic signature, all sorts of complications in

relating come into focus in the current life to be worked on and healed.

Ultimately, as we remember and heal past relational wounds, the journey back

to the self (Aries) happens. As we further integrate the Aries/Libra axis, self love

becomes the foundation of our ability to have healthy relations. A natural

quandary of the Aries /Libra polarity that beckons us to further integration is,

how to have the freedom to be ourselves and still be in relationship. It takes a

lifetime, even many lifetimes, to learn how to be fully yourself with another

person, to be able to be open and not lose your center but also simultaneously

not to be too self focused so that others cant get in. To accomplish this is a

balancing and synthesis of the Aries polarity of (Self-Identity-Independence), the

inner side of Venus/Taurus (self-reliance), and Venus/ Libra (reaching beyond

the boundary of the self). A further intention of Venus/Libra is to form

relationships of equals, being neither greater/lesser, dominant/submissive,

dependent/independent, or various other roles and polarities we can get involved

in.

Not every relationship between two persons is an I-Thou, nor is every

relationship with an animal or thing I-It. The difference, rather, is in the

relationship itself. I-Thou is a relationship of openness, directness, mutuality,

and presence. [ie..a relationship of equals] . I-It, in contrast, is the typical

subject-object relationship in which one knows and uses other people and things

without allowing them to exist for oneself in their uniqueness

Martin Buber - Philosopher 1947

We can start to imagine now all the ways relationships that are I-it based can

go wrong.

Two people coming together with I-it scripts will never see each other outside

of the mental construct they believe, think or want the other to be. We have to

consider that, Eros aside, Venus/Libra, is an air sign, and falling in love or lust

with what one thinks the other is and not a whole person, is a self-deceptive way

to avoid growing beyond oneself and entering into real relationships! The I-it

relationship is in fact a relationship with oneself; it is not a dialogue, but a

monologue. In this kind of relationship one person is more a satellite to the other

than an equal partner. But it can also be subtler than that. Even the person who

appears to be the caring, supportive one can have an I-it script going on. The

other is an it to be fixedto fulfill an unconscious need to be needed, or further,

to use the other and fixing his or her problems as a way to avoid ones own

problems. This is a learned pattern of relating commonly called co-dependency.

In modern psychology it is understood that co-dependency springs from the

conditions and roles one played in ones family. It is often our childhood (Libra

natural square to Cancer) and then social conditioning (Libra natural square to

Capricorn) that we are not to be accepted as we are, but need to change or

conform to some other standard or anothers needs to gain acceptance or love.

When we are raised this way ourselves, the model is then in place in our

subconscious that this is the only way to have a relationship.

Venus as ruler of Libra has Neptune as the higher octave conditional love that

has the potential to evolve to unconditional love. Further, Neptunes relationship

to Venus would ultimately lead one to the awareness that the primary

relationship is that with the Divine, which is the true source of unconditional

love. Without this connection, we find ourselves looking for love in all the wrong

places. Our experiences with our first care-givers (parents/family) form the

blueprint about love that colors our mode of relating; think of the natural square

to Cancer (Mother) and Capricorn (Father). Below is a list of unspoken family

rules that shape the way that relationships are expected to happen within the

family, which have been identified as childhood causes of adult co-dependent

behavior. In parenthesis I added some Venus/Libra correlations.

Its not okay to talk about problems (Pleasing aspect of Venus)

Feelings should not be expressed openly; keep feelings to yourself (Socially

adaptive mask/denial)

Communication is best if indirect; one person acts as messenger between two

others; known in therapy as triangulation (non-direct distorted form of being

heard or hearing)

Make us proud beyond realistic expectations (conforming to expectations)

Dont be selfish (Denial of Aries polarity)

Dont rock the boat. (Further denial of Aries polarity)

Above all be NICE!!! (Libra desire for peace and harmony)

http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/codependency.htm

(End quote)

Ok so theres some food for thoughtcan you relate??? Hahaha what do you

think?

My personal observations show me that two main themes arise, Co-dependency

and Denial.

Lets start with co-dependency .

Co-dependency is generally a learned way of relating that stems certainly from

prior life conditions and early familial conditioning. At the heart of this complex is

the idea or belief that love cannot be given and received freely, but is based on

conditions I need to change or you need to change.most commonly

expressed as I need to change you. The person who engages in relationship

with this as their leading edge is usually acting from a subconscious need to be

needed. Relating back to Venus as the ruler of Taurus something is amiss in

their relationship to themselves! There are a lot of psychological dynamics at

work here. Projection of suppressed or subconscious needs: a compulsive

adaptability ( often a long karmic history involved, of conforming to others

expectations) and forming unrealistic images of those we relate to (not seeing

them for who they are, but who one wants them to be).

Im going to quote from my Libra chapter on this.. Basically because I wrote it

already and no need to write it again

(Start Quote)

When Libra is a part of the karmic signature, all sorts of complications in

relating come into focus in the current life to be worked on and healed.

Ultimately, as we remember and heal past relational wounds, the journey back

to the self (Aries) happens. As we further integrate the Aries/Libra axis, self love

becomes the foundation of our ability to have healthy relations. A natural

quandary of the Aries /Libra polarity that beckons us to further integration is,

how to have the freedom to be ourselves and still be in relationship. It takes a

lifetime, even many lifetimes, to learn how to be fully yourself with another

person, to be able to be open and not lose your center but also simultaneously

not to be too self focused so that others cant get in. To accomplish this is a

balancing and synthesis of the Aries polarity of (Self-Identity-Independence), the

inner side of Venus/Taurus (self-reliance), and Venus/ Libra (reaching beyond

the boundary of the self). A further intention of Venus/Libra is to form

relationships of equals, being neither greater/lesser, dominant/submissive,

dependent/independent, or various other roles and polarities we can get involved

in.

Not every relationship between two persons is an I-Thou, nor is every

relationship with an animal or thing I-It. The difference, rather, is in the

relationship itself. I-Thou is a relationship of openness, directness, mutuality,

and presence. [ie..a relationship of equals] . I-It, in contrast, is the typical

subject-object relationship in which one knows and uses other people and things

without allowing them to exist for oneself in their uniqueness

Martin Buber - Philosopher 1947

We can start to imagine now all the ways relationships that are I-it based can

go wrong.

Two people coming together with I-it scripts will never see each other outside

of the mental construct they believe, think or want the other to be. We have to

consider that, Eros aside, Venus/Libra, is an air sign, and falling in love or lust

with what one thinks the other is and not a whole person, is a self-deceptive way

to avoid growing beyond oneself and entering into real relationships! The I-it

relationship is in fact a relationship with oneself; it is not a dialogue, but a

monologue. In this kind of relationship one person is more a satellite to the other

than an equal partner. But it can also be subtler than that. Even the person who

appears to be the caring, supportive one can have an I-it script going on. The

other is an it to be fixedto fulfill an unconscious need to be needed, or further,

to use the other and fixing his or her problems as a way to avoid ones own

problems. This is a learned pattern of relating commonly called co-dependency.

In modern psychology it is understood that co-dependency springs from the

conditions and roles one played in ones family. It is often our childhood (Libra

natural square to Cancer) and then social conditioning (Libra natural square to

Capricorn) that we are not to be accepted as we are, but need to change or

conform to some other standard or anothers needs to gain acceptance or love.

When we are raised this way ourselves, the model is then in place in our

subconscious that this is the only way to have a relationship.

Venus as ruler of Libra has Neptune as the higher octave conditional love that

has the potential to evolve to unconditional love. Further, Neptunes relationship

to Venus would ultimately lead one to the awareness that the primary

relationship is that with the Divine, which is the true source of unconditional

love. Without this connection, we find ourselves looking for love in all the wrong

places. Our experiences with our first care-givers (parents/family) form the

blueprint about love that colors our mode of relating; think of the natural square

to Cancer (Mother) and Capricorn (Father). Below is a list of unspoken family

rules that shape the way that relationships are expected to happen within the

family, which have been identified as childhood causes of adult co-dependent

behavior. In parenthesis I added some Venus/Libra correlations.

Its not okay to talk about problems (Pleasing aspect of Venus)

Feelings should not be expressed openly; keep feelings to yourself (Socially

adaptive mask/denial)

Communication is best if indirect; one person acts as messenger between two

others; known in therapy as triangulation (non-direct distorted form of being

heard or hearing)

Make us proud beyond realistic expectations (conforming to expectations)

Dont be selfish (Denial of Aries polarity)

Dont rock the boat. (Further denial of Aries polarity)

Above all be NICE!!! (Libra desire for peace and harmony)

http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/codependency.htm

(End quote)

Ok so theres some food for thoughtcan you relate??? Hahaha what do you

think?

My personal observations show me that two main themes arise, Co-dependency

and Denial.

Lets start with co-dependency .

Co-dependency is generally a learned way of relating that stems certainly from

prior life conditions and early familial conditioning. At the heart of this complex is

the idea or belief that love cannot be given and received freely, but is based on

conditions I need to change or you need to change.most commonly

expressed as I need to change you. The person who engages in relationship

with this as their leading edge is usually acting from a subconscious need to be

needed. Relating back to Venus as the ruler of Taurus something is amiss in

their relationship to themselves! There are a lot of psychological dynamics at

work here. Projection of suppressed or subconscious needs: a compulsive

adaptability ( often a long karmic history involved, of conforming to others

expectations) and forming unrealistic images of those we relate to (not seeing

them for who they are, but who one wants them to be).

Im going to quote from my Libra chapter on this.. Basically because I wrote it

already and no need to write it again

(Start Quote)

When Libra is a part of the karmic signature, all sorts of complications in

relating come into focus in the current life to be worked on and healed.

Ultimately, as we remember and heal past relational wounds, the journey back

to the self (Aries) happens. As we further integrate the Aries/Libra axis, self love

becomes the foundation of our ability to have healthy relations. A natural

quandary of the Aries /Libra polarity that beckons us to further integration is,

how to have the freedom to be ourselves and still be in relationship. It takes a

lifetime, even many lifetimes, to learn how to be fully yourself with another

person, to be able to be open and not lose your center but also simultaneously

not to be too self focused so that others cant get in. To accomplish this is a

balancing and synthesis of the Aries polarity of (Self-Identity-Independence), the

inner side of Venus/Taurus (self-reliance), and Venus/ Libra (reaching beyond

the boundary of the self). A further intention of Venus/Libra is to form

relationships of equals, being neither greater/lesser, dominant/submissive,

dependent/independent, or various other roles and polarities we can get involved

in.

Not every relationship between two persons is an I-Thou, nor is every

relationship with an animal or thing I-It. The difference, rather, is in the

relationship itself. I-Thou is a relationship of openness, directness, mutuality,

and presence. [ie..a relationship of equals] . I-It, in contrast, is the typical

subject-object relationship in which one knows and uses other people and things

without allowing them to exist for oneself in their uniqueness

Martin Buber - Philosopher 1947

We can start to imagine now all the ways relationships that are I-it based can

go wrong.

Two people coming together with I-it scripts will never see each other outside

of the mental construct they believe, think or want the other to be. We have to

consider that, Eros aside, Venus/Libra, is an air sign, and falling in love or lust

with what one thinks the other is and not a whole person, is a self-deceptive way

to avoid growing beyond oneself and entering into real relationships! The I-it

relationship is in fact a relationship with oneself; it is not a dialogue, but a

monologue. In this kind of relationship one person is more a satellite to the other

than an equal partner. But it can also be subtler than that. Even the person who

appears to be the caring, supportive one can have an I-it script going on. The

other is an it to be fixedto fulfill an unconscious need to be needed, or further,

to use the other and fixing his or her problems as a way to avoid ones own

problems. This is a learned pattern of relating commonly called co-dependency.

In modern psychology it is understood that co-dependency springs from the

conditions and roles one played in ones family. It is often our childhood (Libra

natural square to Cancer) and then social conditioning (Libra natural square to

Capricorn) that we are not to be accepted as we are, but need to change or

conform to some other standard or anothers needs to gain acceptance or love.

When we are raised this way ourselves, the model is then in place in our

subconscious that this is the only way to have a relationship.

Venus as ruler of Libra has Neptune as the higher octave conditional love that

has the potential to evolve to unconditional love. Further, Neptunes relationship

to Venus would ultimately lead one to the awareness that the primary

relationship is that with the Divine, which is the true source of unconditional

love. Without this connection, we find ourselves looking for love in all the wrong

places. Our experiences with our first care-givers (parents/family) form the

blueprint about love that colors our mode of relating; think of the natural square

to Cancer (Mother) and Capricorn (Father). Below is a list of unspoken family

rules that shape the way that relationships are expected to happen within the

family, which have been identified as childhood causes of adult co-dependent

behavior. In parenthesis I added some Venus/Libra correlations.

Its not okay to talk about problems (Pleasing aspect of Venus)

Feelings should not be expressed openly; keep feelings to yourself (Socially

adaptive mask/denial)

Communication is best if indirect; one person acts as messenger between two

others; known in therapy as triangulation (non-direct distorted form of being

heard or hearing)

Make us proud beyond realistic expectations (conforming to expectations)

Dont be selfish (Denial of Aries polarity)

Dont rock the boat. (Further denial of Aries polarity)

Above all be NICE!!! (Libra desire for peace and harmony)

http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/codependency.htm

(End quote)

Ok so theres some food for thoughtcan you relate??? Hahaha what do you

think?

I am grateful to learn more and more about Libra. Pluto recently crossed over my descendant into my 7th house (not too fun

really) and my progressed Sun is now in Libra. I also have Mars in Libra natally and can attest to the projection and adaptability

to please, mostly when I was younger. Now I'm quite skilled at meditating and creating balance with varying groups or one-on-

one settings when I truly honor my needs and others.The above points stood out because they remind me of someone I know

who, in relating to others, is "completely selfish - always rocks the boat - and is not always nice." She does not display the co-

dependent qualities you mentioned, but seems to have gone completely in the opposite direction! What do you make of this?

What childhood behaviours would have caused her to become so selfish?

Here is a quote from that website you posted:

"As adults, codependent people have a greater tendency to get involved in relationships with people who are perhaps unreliable,

emotionally unavailable, or needy. And the codependent person tries to provide and control everything within the relationship

without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves up for continued unfulfillment.

Even when a codependent person encounters someone with healthy boundaries, the codependent person still operates in their

own system; theyre not likely to get too involved with people who have healthy boundaries. This of course creates problems that

continue to recycle; if codependent people cant get involved with people who have healthy behaviors and coping skills, then the

problems continue into each new relationship."

I found it interesting that the codependent person keeps setting themselves up for continued unfulfillment through involvement

with the wrong types of people. It would be important to see through this pattern, in order to change it.

The control freak behaviour gives a false sense of 'relationship.' In their giving too much to the needy person, they are really

seeking control - the classic unbalanced and unequal relationship.All of this makes me think of the collective. Because how many

people are codependent! Loads. It's like an epidemic in our culture. Also the Neptune in Libra generation comes to mind. This

is time the term codependency came to be and all the self-help books began to come out or was that the next generation?"

As I understand it, the term 'co-dependant' became popularized in the mid to late 80's. Not that people weren't co-dependant

before that!! But you can say it emerged into the collective conciouss as something taht was now identified and needed tobe

worked on. The astrological marker that I see at that time is actaully Pluto finishing up it's transit thru Libra and enetering

Scorpio. Those archtypes alone point to the evolutionary intention to 'transform ways of relating' This also applies to the 7th

house Pluto transit that you are having. So you can be enetering a period where unhealthy relationship patterns will become

clearer to you with the intention of creating new ways of being in relationship.

JWG also says about this transit that old partners (and past karmic mates) can also re-eneter your life during this time.. of

course the larger intention is not to replay the old patterns but to intitiate a new cycle (with new repsonses) to old relationship

issues. It's good to notice how the archtypes affect us in our perosnal lives, to see the patterns etc.. i thinkit makes us all

potentially better counselers :-)

Congrats on 'getting a handle' on some of your early life 'projection and adpatability' issues!you said....

"The above points stood out because they remind me of someone I know who, in

relating to others, is "completely selfish - always rocks the boat - and is not

always nice." She does not display the co-dependent qualities you mentioned,

but seems to have gone completely in the opposite direction! What do you make

of this? What childhood behaviours would have caused her to become so

selfish?"

My first thought is what is her chart? Does she have an emphasis on Libra or

Aries..1st/7th house. She sounds more Arian (the polarity of Libra). That kind of

'selfishness' can have lots of diffrent roots ( karmic and childhood) It may be a

survival mechanism...'If I don't fight for myself noone will" The aries archtype

often has -learning thru confrontation- as part of its lessons. People that form a

complusive sort of selfishness often fear at the core (again from a variety of

circumstances) that they will never be able to get what they want. One main

diffrence between this sort of imprint and the Libran co-dependant type is, the

'selfish' one often knows what they want but either feels they can get it easily

(frustration)and/or without a fight or a fuss...while the Libran type often dosn't

have a clue about what they want and what thier needs REALLY are. Hence why

this issue is distorted for them in relationship. Until that basic understnding

occurs for the individual, they will keep creating and being drawn to those

unhealthy relationships.

.. Um, Is it ok that I used an "exclamation mark"? I was just sharing how I felt about that quote- that I thought it was funny. But

if I offended you please let me know.

Also let me know if you are comfortable with this emoticon , if not I wont use it- I just want to make sure about that because I

was going to use it, but then though that I should ask you first in case I use it and it makes you uncomfortable. I'm really not

attached one way or another, so you can feel totally ok just being totally honest. No matter what I accept you.

...

Oh god, I play that role way TOO easily. gotta shake it out now...

Here is another aspect of distorted Libra. I'm quoting this from an up and coming e-book that is in its editing stages:

"I once had a friend who told me he secretly desires to be kidnapped. I wondered how the Libra archetype manifested in his

chart. It ends up he has a full seventh house as well as a few inner planets in Libra. Why from a Libra point of view would any

soul wish to be kidnapped? First of all, in such a situation, there is no need to make any decisions for one's self. With no

decisions to make there is no possibility of being rejected or disapproved of by anyone. Second of all, its a distorted way of

feeling needed...

... The famous indecisiveness of Libra is rooted in a deep need to make decisions in such a way that will please everyone.

Confusion about any decision is unconsciously rooted in a need to please and be accepted by other people. When Libra realizes

that any decision it makes is fine, that it is worthy of love and acceptance no matter what choices it makes, then it can develop

the Aries polarity by way of learning to trust its own instinctual impulses."

Pleasingly,

Ari Moshe

This thread has given me so many great insights into my own and others' Libran

behaviour patterns.

I spent the whole day developing more of my Aries side - and it was just great

and so empowering! Yes, I agree Ari, it doesn't matter what the 'decision' is, as

long as one just makes one.

I noticed the needy people who always seek me out - and how oh so

accommodating I am. The most amazing insight I've read here so far is this:

......the codependent person tries to provide and control everything within the

relationship without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves

up for continued unfulfillment.

That statement is great incentive to CHANGE the behaviour...so that one can

attract fulfillment in relationships, and not the same old unfulfilling ones.

All of this information and knowledge is pertinent to me at the moment since T-

Pluto is conjuncting my natal Venus, and I really am starting to change my

patterns.

TO USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION:

Go to the post that you wish to quote. Click on "Quote" in the top right-hand

corner. A "Post Reply" will open, and the Quote will be inserted. Scroll down

and start typing AFTER the quote. If an inserted Quote is too large, just edit it

down.

just discovered that there is a "Spell Check" function, found at the bottom of the Post Reply page. After you have typed a post,

just click on "Spell Check": spelling mistakes will appear together with correct spelling. Click on "Change."

so let me know if you are comfortable with this emoticon , if not I wont use it- I just want to make sure about that because I

was going to use it, but then though that I should ask you first in case I use it and it makes you uncomfortable. I'm really not

attached one way or another, so you can feel totally ok just being totally honest. No matter what I accept you.

...

Oh god, I play that role way TOO easily. gotta shake it out now...

Haha Ari...it takes a LOT more to offend me than an exclamation point or an emoticon! So exclaim away!!

Here is another aspect of distorted Libra. I'm quoting this from an up and coming e-book that is in its editing stages:

"I once had a friend who told me he secretly desires to be kidnapped. I wondered how the Libra archetype manifested in his

chart. It ends up he has a full seventh house as well as a few inner planets in Libra. Why from a Libra point of view would any

soul wish to be kidnapped? First of all, in such a situation, there is no need to make any decisions for ones self. With no decisions

to make there is no possibility of being rejected or disapproved of by anyone. Second of all, it's a distorted way of feeling

needed...

... The famous indecisiveness of Libra is rooted in a deep need to make decisions in such a way that will please everyone.

Confusion about any decision is unconsciously rooted in a need to please and be accepted by other people. When Libra realizes

that any decision it makes is fine, that it is worthy of love and acceptance no matter what choices it makes, then it can develop

the Aries polarity by way of learning to trust its own instinctual impulses."

Pleasingly,

Ari Moshehanks for sharing that Ari... Kidnapping does seems like a dark fantasy for Libra, I would wonder what other elements

are in the chart that might also lend to that..Scorpio, Virgo, asteroid Persephone? You make a great point about The

indecisiveness, which hasn't been mentioned yet and about how the Aries polarity is meant to balance that out. I also think of

Aries as a boundary where Libra maybe boundrey-less..which again points to Neptune as the higher octave of Venus. Libra needs

to learn the 'boundary of self' from Aries,which as you worded...the instinctual self and in fact that it is ok to even have a

self..which usually feels so foreign. Especially when it is a complex that has been brought in from other lives.

On that theme, finding anger (Aries) within the self is very difficult for them as it breaks all the rules of 'being nice'. But the

reality is when the instinctual self's boundaries have been violated in any way, anger is the natural first defense and it is that

denial of self that also sits at the bottom of such complexes.

A client comes to mind who regressed to a past life as a young Asian woman ( yes, talk about a culture where pleasing, niceness

and conformity is highly valued). Her life was fine as she followed her fathers orders as she was expected to do, and one day

when she was about 14 he called her into a room, pointed to (what she described as a fat, stinky fishmerchant or about 50 years

old) and said ' This is your new husband. In that moment her whole life changed and of course her instinct was disgust and rage.

Yet her conditioning and her head told her she needed to follow her fathers orders. So she shut down all her instinct, married

him, had children, eventually committing suicide in that life by jumping out a window. ( Violence against oneself - Aries turned

inwards)) All her natural libido and life force - Aries) had become so shut down and deadend, but as we know repressed and

suppressed energy does not go away..it becomes distorted and eventually comes out in that form. Her healing from that life

came from her ability to let all that suppressed rage out. That is an example of Sn Libra moving to Aries NN.his thread has given

me so many great insights into my own and others' Libran behaviour patterns.

I spent the whole day developing more of my Aries side - and it was just great

and so empowering! Yes, I agree Ari, it doesn't matter what the 'decision' is, as

long as one just makes one.

I noticed the needy people who always seek me out - and how oh so

accommodating I am. The most amazing insight I've read here so far is this:

......the codependent person tries to provide and control everything within the

relationship without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves

up for continued unfulfillment.

That statement is great incentive to CHANGE the behaviour...so that one can

attract fulfillment in relationships, and not the same old unfulfilling ones.

All of this information and knowledge is pertinent to me at the moment since T-

Pluto is conjuncting my natal Venus, and I really am starting to change my

patterns.

TO USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION:

Go to the post that you wish to quote. Click on "Quote" in the top right-hand

corner. A "Post Reply" will open, and the Quote will be inserted. Scroll down

and start typing AFTER the quote. If an inserted Quote is too large, just edit it

down.

thanks for the quote function help... I still can't seem to get small parts of the

text to show up and comment on it in different shaded boxes like I see on other

posts..anyone know how to do that?

Well as you mention... learning to say NO is also a big lesson for the Libra

type..and does represent a boundry of the self ( the Aries polarity). Again when

the Libra type gives themselves permission and musters up enough gumption to

first discover what it is they truly need and desire, that sets up the chain

reaction of recovery from too much adaptability. Another client comes to mind

who sat on her chair very proper and smiley, while she recounted an event of

being gang raped in a hotel hotel room. She ended this recounting of her story

with ' But thats ok, I'm over it now" and said the most famous libra line ' I'm just

fine". it had happened over 10 years ago and when she was asked how her

relationship history was she said ' Oh I haven't had one, I'm just perfectly fine

without that in my life".

I can tell you the 'denial defense' of this archetype is one of the hardest to work

with, you really have to develope the ability to 'pull' things out and not

push..because pushing will trigger the defense even more since it often mimicks

the same energy of the original violation. You need to be firm and soft at the

same time. Empathetic yet directive. When working with this type of denial what

is interesting (as in with all such defenses) if you are aware of yourself, you will

feel all the unexpressed emotion as your own. This is commonly called

Transference in counseling...which is appropriate to discuss in this archetype as

projection and mirroring are all a part of Libra and transference itself. So a part

of you will want to jump off the chair, or reach thru the phone and slap some

sense into them! That is exactly the energy you need to direct the client to get in

touch with in themselves. Getting them out of thier 'heads' and the 'I'm fine'

script contained there and into thier emotions and/or natural body reactions is

the way to wake up the slumbering empowerd Aries they need.

I spent the whole day developing more of my Aries side - and it was just great

and so empowering! Yes, I agree Ari, it doesn't matter what the 'decision' is, as

long as one just makes one.

I noticed the needy people who always seek me out - and how oh so

accommodating I am. The most amazing insight I've read here so far is this:

......the codependent person tries to provide and control everything within the

relationship without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves

up for continued unfulfillment.

That statement is great incentive to CHANGE the behaviour...so that one can

attract fulfillment in relationships, and not the same old unfulfilling ones.

All of this information and knowledge is pertinent to me at the moment since T-

Pluto is conjuncting my natal Venus, and I really am starting to change my

patterns.

TO USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION:

Go to the post that you wish to quote. Click on "Quote" in the top right-hand

corner. A "Post Reply" will open, and the Quote will be inserted. Scroll down

and start typing AFTER the quote. If an inserted Quote is too large, just edit it

down.

thanks for the quote function help... I still can't seem to get small parts of the

text to show up and comment on it in different shaded boxes like I see on other

posts..anyone know how to do that?

Well as you mention... learning to say NO is also a big lesson for the Libra

type..and does represent a boundry of the self ( the Aries polarity). Again when

the Libra type gives themselves permission and musters up enough gumption to

first discover what it is they truly need and desire, that sets up the chain

reaction of recovery from too much adaptability. Another client comes to mind

who sat on her chair very proper and smiley, while she recounted an event of

being gang raped in a hotel hotel room. She ended this recounting of her story

with ' But thats ok, I'm over it now" and said the most famous libra line ' I'm just

fine". it had happened over 10 years ago and when she was asked how her

relationship history was she said ' Oh I haven't had one, I'm just perfectly fine

without that in my life".

I can tell you the 'denial defense' of this archetype is one of the hardest to work

with, you really have to develope the ability to 'pull' things out and not

push..because pushing will trigger the defense even more since it often mimicks

the same energy of the original violation. You need to be firm and soft at the

same time. Empathetic yet directive. When working with this type of denial what

is interesting (as in with all such defenses) if you are aware of yourself, you will

feel all the unexpressed emotion as your own. This is commonly called

Transference in counseling...which is appropriate to discuss in this archetype as

projection and mirroring are all a part of Libra and transference itself. So a part

of you will want to jump off the chair, or reach thru the phone and slap some

sense into them! That is exactly the energy you need to direct the client to get in

touch with in themselves. Getting them out of thier 'heads' and the 'I'm fine'

script contained there and into thier emotions and/or natural body reactions is

the way to wake up the slumbering empowerd Aries they need.

h that's interesting. I checked it out- he does in fact have Persephone rx conj his Moon in the 12th. For him, this seems to

generally correlate with not having had a stable home/mother that he can depend on...

ibra natural archetype:

Venus's dual rulership of Libra and Taurus and how they support eachother

Is about socialization

Learning about oneself thru relationship (comparison and contrasting)

Equal relating

Not inherently balanced, but seeking balance

Persona or Mask

Listening to the reality of others

Equality in giving and receiving

Does not make others dependant on them

Clarity of self-identity and needs creates healthy boundaries

Sharing, giving and inclusion

One on one relating

Strives for harmony

Beauty and grace

Mediator

Individual expression when 'evolving' towards the natural archetype

(complications and distortions)

Co-Dependency and it's various dynamics and how it's patterns create continual

unfulfilling and disappointing relationships.

Over adaptability - Pleasing and 'being nice'

Need to be needed

Not 'seeing' others for who they are , but rather what one wants them to be

Conditional relationships (one needs to change, self or others to be loved)

Denial as a defense mechanism

Dosn't honor, validate or is out of touch with ones own actual needs, causing a

distorted perception of others needs

Living in a society that has an epidemic of 'co-dependency'

Is challenged with the need to transform relating on all levels

Fear of making decisions (indecisive) so relinquishes power to others

and

Various ways the polarity point of Aries assists evolution in this

archetype.

Empowers the instinctual self so one can...

Can create a healthy boundary, ability to say no.

Allows one to focus on self - will not compromise identity or needs

Anger as a signal (primal defense) from the instinctual self when boundaries

have been over-run (violated)

Anything I missed...anyone wants to add?

So a part of you will want to jump off the chair, or reach thru the phone and slap some sense into them! That is exactly the

energy you need to direct the client to get in touch with in themselves. Getting them out of their 'heads' and the 'I'm fine'

script contained there and into their emotions and/or natural body reactions is the way to wake up the slumbering empowered

Aries they need.Do you think that a state of 'depression' could be triggered when the Libran sees the truth of themselves? Not

clinical depression, but a very deep sadness. Is this what you mean about getting in touch with the emotions?

Imagine having been 'nice' all ones life, having given away ones power to others, and having let others take advantage of you

since you were directionless. I can see how Neptune can play into this since 'not wanting anything out of life' could be a safety

or escapist mechanism.

Anger could arise and be directed to the 'selfishness' of others who took advantage of the Libran. The Libran could feel used,

betrayed, discarded, and then slip back into the old behaviours, so the vicious cycle starts all over again.

I thought masochism correlated to Virgo, but it seems the distorted Libran archetype can suffer from this as well.

Since Venus is in Scorpio at the moment, I'll bet people are really getting in touch with these very issues.

Your quote:

Quote

've been thinking about this man I have been working with de-cluttering his home and feng shui (internal and external). He has

a lot of Pisces (Sun, Mercury, NN) with Saturn Neptune conjunction in Libra. So the Libra in his chart is very pertinent. He has

carried the Mr. Nice Guy syndrome for a very long time. I would like to post his chart as an example, and to discuss possible

scenarios what Patricia just recently described if that is okay with the group?

Do you think that a state of 'depression' could be triggered when the Libran sees the truth of themselves? Not clinical

depression, but a very deep sadness. Is this what you mean about getting in touch with the emotions?

Imagine having been 'nice' all ones life, having given away ones power to others, and having let others take advantage of you

since you were directionless. I can see how Neptune can play into this since 'not wanting anything out of life' could be a safety

or escapist mechanism.

Anger could arise and be directed to the 'selfishness' of others who took advantage of the Libran. The Libran could feel used,

betrayed, discarded, and then slip back into the old behaviours, so the vicious cycle starts all over again.

Hi Linda..

In my personal work i find that any deep change has a 'layer of sadness' around it. So when you do get in touch with something

and then change it, just as you said, there can come all those realizations of how long you let that pattern run your life..and

grieving that may be necessary. It is in my view it is healthy and a part of the process. It dosn't necessarily mean that someone

is going to slip back into the pattern...although everyone is diffrent. The other point you mention about anger...usually if

someone gets to that layer..it will help them initiate change. Remember Libra is a cardinal sign.

I thought masochism correlated to Virgo, but it seems the distorted Libran archetype can suffer from this as well.

Yeah...self cancellation for sure is a kind of massochism. But in Virgo the underpinning is guilt, in Libra it is often feeling

unworthy ( relating back to the inner side of Venus as ruler of Taurus)

essentially pointing one back to the need to work on the relationship with themselves as the basis for healthy relating.

Since Venus is in Scorpio at the moment, I'll bet people are really getting in touch with these very issues.

Yes I can relate.. I have Venus in Scorpio in the 8th...conj Neptune Don;t forget that Transiting Saturn is in Libra also.

Overly nice people can seem unreal, and selfish people are overbearing. Is there a middle ground? *Balance* Could the Cancer

or Capricorn energies be useful in the predicament that Libra finds itself in?

How does one knock sense into oneself?

[/quote]

Ii would say that the empowerd forms of Cancer (the emotional self and deep needs and being intouch with that) and capricorn

(another form of boundry and structure and ability to 'mature and parent oneself') certainly lend energy to the balancing that

needs to take place, but they are naturally square Libra, which to me indicates that those qualities also need to be conciously

worked on to integrate them. Polarity points and reaching for them and thier qualities contain the roadmap for working oneself

out of a particular archetypes quandries.Hi Wendy that would be fine. I just talked with a friend last night, who has been

embroiled in a 2 year co-dependant relationship who finally busted out of it!!! yeah for her!! She has a Neptune in Libra T-square

to just about everything in her chart as most of her planets and nodes lie on the Cancer/Capricorn axis.

All this Cardinal action in the transists is certainly waking some people up.

I'm wondering how projection fits in this archetype? Is projection an action? A Psychological state? Does it fit in the libra

archetype or is it a composite of a few of them?

These are my questions. Thank you Heather.

Hey all, great discussion here on Libra. Since communication is such a key part of relationships, I'd like to throw out the

question of Mercury in Libra/7th...I get the sense that, as if a distorted Libra weren't difficult enough, Mercury coming through

Libra could correlate with the majority of one's thought structures being oriented toward endless inner analysis and outward

communication patterns being geared toward keeping options open and/or not upsetting others - so, someone who is noticeably

indecisive and aloof. I'm also getting the sense that there could be a fear of commitment and difficulty in forming healthy, stable

relationships with others. Which raises another question - when we say an archetype is distorted, is it possible that that the

associated behavior/manifestation would be bleeding into other archetypes (i.e., fear of commitment being Scorpio)? Similarly,

on the other side, distorted Libra resulting in co-dependence really reminds me much of the Virgo notion of inferiority. Any

validity to that?

Hi all.. I'm back :-)

To adress Will and Mountainhealer... Projection is also strongly correlated to Aquarius..in the concept that thought creates reality

( of course limited by many factors), If you think of the dual rulership of Aquarius (Saturn and Uranus) it becomes clear. Such

broad portraits of human posychological processes i think are hard to stick in one archetype...as projecting ones unfulfilled

emtional needs is a part of Cancer...for example. So as it realtes to Libra...the natural ruler of the descandant of the zodiac

wheel... is where the PERSONA..or MASK is created. It is opposite to the instinctual self (Aries and the ascendant)and is

conditioned by sociatal, familial and realtionship expectations. it is the PROJECTED idea of oneself. People often identify

themselves with thier persona, yes we often need one to fuction in certain roles.

Our variuos personas are created with more consciousness so they can be said to be constructed by us.

In my observations people are often less aware of the qualities of the sign on the ascendant in themselves ( yet others see it so

clearly in them). I feel it takes up to the first Saturn return to CONSCIOUSLY begin to appropriate the qualities of the ascendant

into ones psyche.

Mercury coming thru Libra as Will mentioned can have that indecisive quality, for all the reasons he mentioned. Libra and

mercury both having a dual nature.

Quote from: _will on Sep 28, 2010, 08:30 PM

do understand what Will was saying, but I'm sure he will clarify his question to

you.

I think he's saying that some of the archetypes can be very "similar" in their

distorted expression. For example, Libran self-cancellation is quite similar to

Virgoan masochism, and Scorpionic self-destruction. That there is a similar

"theme" running through the distorted expressions.

And also, when one distorted archetype gets activated, will then lead to, bleed

into or trigger another archetype (like a domino effect).

Hi all.. I'm back :-)

To adress Will and Mountainhealer... Projection is also strongly correlated to Aquarius..in the concept that thought creates reality

( of course limited by many factors), If you think of the dual rulership of Aquarius (Saturn and Uranus) it becomes clear. Such

broad portraits of human posychological processes i think are hard to stick in one archetype...as projecting ones unfulfilled

emtional needs is a part of Cancer...for example. So as it realtes to Libra...the natural ruler of the descandant of the zodiac

wheel... is where the PERSONA..or MASK is created. It is opposite to the instinctual self (Aries and the ascendant)and is

conditioned by sociatal, familial and realtionship expectations. it is the PROJECTED idea of oneself. People often identify

themselves with thier persona, yes we often need one to fuction in certain roles.

Our variuos personas are created with more consciousness so they can be said to be constructed by us.

In my observations people are often less aware of the qualities of the sign on the ascendant in themselves ( yet others see it so

clearly in them). I feel it takes up to the first Saturn return to CONSCIOUSLY begin to appropriate the qualities of the ascendant

into ones psyche.

Mercury coming thru Libra as Will mentioned can have that indecisive quality, for all the reasons he mentioned. Libra and

mercury both having a dual nature.

Quote from: _will on Sep 28, 2010, 08:30 PM

Which raises another question - when we say an archetype is distorted, is it possible that that the associated behavior/

manifestation would be bleeding into other archetypes (i.e., fear of commitment being Scorpio)? Similarly, on the other side,

distorted Libra resulting in co-dependence really reminds me much of the Virgo notion of inferiority. Any validity to that?

Thanks,

Will

[/color]

Not quite sure what your asking here...would it be possible to restate it? Or does anyone else get the gist of it?

atricia - I will try to rephrase the question. So, if you look at an unhealthy manifestation of Libra where there's this

indecisiveness - a fear of making decisions - I see that as an inability to commit, or put differently a fear of commitment. And

fear of commitment might be stated as a fear of entrapment (unable to commit to any single viewpoint). Fear of entrapment, as

JWG indicated, would seem to be a Scorpio thing (Aries natural inconjunct Scorpio). Now I do get the sense there might be a

difference between Libra and Scorpio flavors of the fear of entrapment - the former being related more to the fear of committing

to a single viewpoint in order to keep things open/harmonized/balanced and the latter being a fear of commitment in

relationships due to having its trust violated. In the Libra archetype of indecisiveness, there is also the idea that indecisiveness is

the same as giving away power to others, powerlessness, which is also Scorpio. I don't mean to muddy the waters or start

making up my own untested theories/correlations, but can't help but notice the overlap of this common themes between the two

signs.

Similarly, if you look back toward Virgo, there is this idea of masochism where the person is always doing for others while

ignoring his/her own needs. This sounds much like the definition of co-dependence in relationships (Libra/7th) as defined on the

link from an earlier post (http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/codependency.htm) where "the codependent person tries to

provide and control everything within the relationship without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves up

for continued unfulfillment". There again you see this common thread between codependence (distorted Libra) and Virgo

(unfulfillment - that Virgo sense of the inner void/lack and subsequent drive for perfection).

I wouldn't expect Libra or any other sign/house/archetype to fit nicely into its own little, perfectly defined box - this is the totality

of consciousness we're talking about after all . But I was wondering if the distorted form of Libra would bring out more of the

qualities of neighboring signs. If so, then from a practical counseling perspective, would that prove useful in identifying and

formulating the right words of guidance for a client? I mean, wouldn't the advice be at least slightly different for someone who is

feeling and acting masochistically as reflected in Virgo/Pisces versus what you might tell someone who has become codependent/

masochistic as reflected by a distorted Libra/7th house influence?

Hope this hasn't caused more confusion or the need for a new thread (happy to bump this to its own topic if need be).Hi Will...

well i think you answerd your own question. In EA we always try to get to the bottom line...so lets just say for example...

Massochism is a psychological response/ distorted defense..whatever you want to call it... how it was formed, and the reasons

why, would be the flavor. So yes..Massochism in Virgo's bottom line is guilt, maybe in Libra = feeling un-worthy (or self-

cancellation as over adaptability) also can be called massochistic behavior. Scorpio isolating itself beacuse of fear of vulnerability

and exposure , yet deeply yearning for connection can loosly be called massochistic. But yes lets not muddy the water... and lets

understand that the way JWG described the massochistic complex is in general belonging to guilt and the Virgo archetype.

And absolutly YES... in huge emphatic way, the words you use, the counseling you offer is different based on the bottom line, of

how that complex formed for THAT individual. Archetypes paint broad brushstrokes IN GENERAL, in practice with the individual

psyche it is unique and personal.

If you were counselling someone who's main complex is guilt (ie Virgo) and tried to tell them to stop comparing themselves to

others (more Libran)..even though that may be a behavior they have...that may not be the root of the complex for that

archetype and for them. Getting to the bottom line...the guilt, will help unravel the complex. That is the crux of good

counseling..listening to what is really being said ;-) (appropriate to mention in our Libra discussion)!!

[/quote]

Patricia - I will try to rephrase the question. So, if you look at an unhealthy manifestation of Libra where there's this

indecisiveness - a fear of making decisions - I see that as an inability to commit, or put differently a fear of commitment. And

fear of commitment might be stated as a fear of entrapment (unable to commit to any single viewpoint). Fear of entrapment, as

JWG indicated, would seem to be a Scorpio thing (Aries natural inconjunct Scorpio). Now I do get the sense there might be a

difference between Libra and Scorpio flavors of the fear of entrapment - the former being related more to the fear of committing

to a single viewpoint in order to keep things open/harmonized/balanced and the latter being a fear of commitment in

relationships due to having its trust violated. In the Libra archetype of indecisiveness, there is also the idea that indecisiveness is

the same as giving away power to others, powerlessness, which is also Scorpio. I don't mean to muddy the waters or start

making up my own untested theories/correlations, but can't help but notice the overlap of this common themes between the two

signs.

I can see how in a sort of stream-of-concsiousness-way you can get from fear of making descisions equating to fear of

commitment is sort of like fear of entrapment...but to me they are not the same thing and have diffrent underlying causes.

IE..from the past life experience...a fear of making decisions can stem from - having made a mistake, which resulted in trauma,

having taken in so many viewpoints one dosn't know what to think anymore (these two also correlate to Gemini)

or in Libra, trying to please all sides. This is vastly diffrent than say fear of entrapment which can be the literal past life

experince.. for example held as a sexual slave or similar scenario and having lost oneself in that kind of traumatic expereince.

Similarly, if you look back toward Virgo, there is this idea of masochism where the person is always doing for others while

ignoring his/her own needs. This sounds much like the definition of co-dependence in relationships (Libra/7th) as defined on the

link from an earlier post (http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/codependency.htm) where "the codependent person tries to

provide and control everything within the relationship without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves up

for continued unfulfillment". There again you see this common thread between codependence (distorted Libra) and Virgo

(unfulfillment - that Virgo sense of the inner void/lack and subsequent drive for perfection).

Again in your example there is a dfiffrent causative factor in Virgo it is service on overdrive...stemming from either guilt, or a

need to make something perfect. While in Libra it is stemming more for a weak sense of needing to be needed..and not knowing

what ones own needs are.

Gee i hope that helps?.....

Again in your example there is a different causative factor in Virgo it is service on overdrive...stemming from either guilt, or a

need to make something perfect. While in Libra it is stemming more for a weak sense of needing to be needed..and not knowing

what one's own needs are.'m hoping we can go a little deeper into this archetype by way of looking at an example below. I was

thinking about Libra's need to be needed, how it tries to please others, how it is overly nice, listens intently to others, puts others

up on a pedestal and plays the role of alter ego.....because it has no idea what its own needs are, and because its own

individuality has not been fully developed.

If I could use an example: Let's say a girl with a typical unskillful or distorted Libran archetypal expression finds herself

befriending a man, to whom she listens intently, is overly nice....and basically plays the role of 'friend.' She has no idea how to

deal with this man's attentions, so she reverts to the familiar and known: by being nice at all costs. She sees this man from

time to time, and so the so-called friendship goes on for a number of years. The girl is basically unaware how she has built a

friendship on sand (which is finally starting to sink), on 'social niceties,' and how in truth the friendship is very superficial and

quite unreal.

Years later, it turns out that the girl, now a women, through transformational events, finally realizes how she has built a "false"

friendship with the man, and how in fact the man is not "nice" at all; he's aggressive, self-centred, sadistic, and in fact a

woman-hater (!). All those years (perhaps out of unconscious fear and intimidation) she had pretended how important he was,

and had given all of her attention and praise to his ideas, and displayed interest in him and his life.

She suddenly realizes that underneath it all, in reality, she has no real feelings for this man whatsoever, not even in friendship.

In fact she REALLY dislikes him! Yet, he persists in the friendship, almost by force since it was SHE who created the illusion

(higher octave Neptune). She finds herself in an extremely awkward position: she cannot be false any longer, she cannot play

the game, and resentment and panic start to build. (I'm interested in hearing your views on this feeling of "panic.")

The man all the while had played the game for his own evolutionary reasons. He picks up on the truth and starts to get

intimidating and abusive, by dropping subtle humiliating comments her way. She starts to fear and loathe him, yet in his

presence maintains the "nice exterior" so as not to inflame him - for what else can she do? It seems a sinister cat-and-mouse

game has developed. Change and action are needed. But how?

My question is: how would you advise a client such as this on how to de-tangle herself from a friendship such as this. After

many years of playing the part of "friend" it turns out she does not want this man's attentions ever again. The cycle has

culminated, and the karmic connection has completed its course. Obviously assertiveness is needed; but since aggression could

easily arise in the man, what would be the best way to handle the situation?

Would it be necessary for the girl to develop her own "courage" (Aries polarity), muddle through, and learn her own lessons?

The counselor or astrologer can easily see how the situation arose, as well as the "answers," but since this is such a tricky and

potentially dangerous situation, what would be your specific advice?

Thanks.from what you wrote it is hard to gauge the situation as to how much 'danger' she is in, as opposed to how much is her

fear (which can feel darn real!!). I think that would be the essential point to help her weed thru. It seems to me from what you

wrote she most likely has a karmic connection with this guy, or he represents for her a karmic pattern, in which she went trance

like into a relationship in the past that ended up ...well lets say..no so good!! Hence the fear.

Good for her that she waking up to the dynamics and i would suggest she do further work on exactly what her hook was/is. WHY

is her pattern to be overly nice? How does this pattern realte to her current life expereince and conditioning? What is her

unconcious proijected need or expectation? What did she get out of the relationship? What qualities did he represent for her that

she needs to own? That kind of self awareness, will help to insure it isn't a continual pattern.

Yes it does seem that she needs to , as you said , get her courage and break the rules of nice-ness and extract herself from the

realtionship

Thanks for everything you wrote. I found it very interesting that one can go into a relationship in a trance-like way due to a

karmic pattern. The questions you provided will help to build self-awareness and ensure the pattern is not repeated.

We have a New Moon in Libra on 7th October, and the Venus/Scorpio Rx period will bring personal metamorphosis around

relationship dynamics, some of which could be examining betrayal, abandonment and violations of trust issues.

I just noticed that according to the Gemini Rising chart, USA will be experiencing its Saturn Return at 14.47 deg Libra in the

5th.Yes I described some of the dynamics of those karmic relationships in my book, equating Libran type as 'Fantasy

Bonds" ( more wistful, dreamy, longing, full of unrealistic expectations and promises) and Scorpio (compulsive, obsessive) , as

'Fixated bonds'. Interestingly John Bradshaw wrote about what he calls "Mystified Bonds" in (I think it was) "Healing the Shame

that Binds Us" as a foundation for co-dependant relationship. For him he equates that with dysfunction familial conditioning, for

me it stretches beyond that into the many lives of the soul. And yes for many who meet those they have unfinished business

with, the relationship can have a trance like quality to it. There is something deep in the soul that is desiring completion, and that

unconscious desire floods and takes over the consciousness. It's like being possessed by ones own unconscious complexes. But

that is how these complexes become conscious... and then can be worked on.

In EA we consider Libra to be the precursor to deep committed relationship that happens in Scorpio. To me Libra is more like

flirting with the relationship (the worm on the hook) where Scorpio is where one bites and gets hooked :-).So In Libra (with

Venus and Neptune's influence) a relationship can look and feel promising yet can turn out to have a very different reality.Extract

from your website: "Trauma experienced in the past will often cause a part or fragment of your total energy to remain 'frozen' in

the past. This is what Shamans and various indigenous traditions have described as soul loss or soul fragmentation. Working with

this 'frozen' part by re-experiencing it, serves to begin to thaw that energy. Once this process begins this part is worked with

further to move it into healing....this is in essence, soul retrieval work."

I'm sure many of us, and certainly myself included, have experienced our energy remaining "frozen" in the past. When you say

that we need to work with this frozen part by re-experiencing it, could mean different things, for example, a Venus/Pluto transit

will directly target the past life issues by bringing back key people from the past, while a regression therapy session will allow one

to directly re-experience these blocked energies within a controlled environment.

I have spoken to people who are fully aware of the frozen PATTERN as well as the need for HEALING. It seems that when

informing the client of all the Libran dynamics, patterns, and reasons for change and healing, that they will completely agree and

understand......yet they continue to repeat the pattern (!). The pull of the unconscious need, longing and expectation for the

Libran "relationship dream," is still operative, and still SO entrenched. I suppose the astrologer would have to keep drawing

attention to the lessons....and this could very well take a long time....so that the patterns would SLOWLY begin to improve and

change over time.

Is it possible that the need for healing oneself has also been pushed down into the unconscious? Perhaps it would take stronger

medicine: like a Pluto transit, or a cataclysmic event to bring about change?

Is wanting a fulfilling relationship a healthy and normal desire? That the person would be willing to "work" through it (Saturn in

Libra), to do what it takes to fulfill that desire?

Thanks. Hi Linda... From my perspective we are all working thru our karmas in our day to day life, and even though evolution

happens..for some it can be long and slow. Ones Evolutionary state has an effect upon how readily they respond to the divine

hints. Cataclysmic events for sure can speed up that process :-)

Personally I feel in our society too many people try to work things out in their

heads only.... in fact they live in their heads mostly. This is a patriarchal

bias...that the mind (masculine), specifically left brain- logic and linear thought

is superior to the emotions and body (feminine). When that left brain approach is

the only thing engaged, I feel that is when you see people spinning their wheels,

stuck in the same rut. That left brain 'monkey-mind' can spin out all sorts of

rationalizations, while not addressing or even FEELING what is really going on..

This is the main problem with most people they are in DENIAL of thier feelings.

That is why Cognitive-Behavioral therapy takes years (which is the standard

form of therapy in the US) and worse they medicate to numb the emotions.This

is what we as healers and counselors need to be aware of and work to

bypass...to get to the soft underbelly of any given complex. The left brain will

override the emotional response...this is the illness of western society, which is

mainly reductionist and rationalistic. ( I could on about this for days!!!)

This is what DH Lawrence had to say on healing...

"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections. And it is not because

the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill. I am ill because of wounds to

the soul, to the deep emotional self and wounds to the soul take a long, long

time, only time can help and patience, and a certain difficult repentance, long

difficult repentance, realization of life's mistake, and the freeing oneself from the

endless repetition of the mistake which mankind at large has chosen to sanctify."

Is it possible that the need for healing oneself has also been pushed down into

the unconscious? Perhaps it would take stronger medicine: like a Pluto transit,

or a cataclysmic event to bring about change?

Is wanting a fulfilling relationship a healthy and normal desire? That the person

would be willing to "work" through it (Saturn in Libra), to do what it takes to

fulfill that desire?

This points to the basis of EA and other forms of soul healing work..only soulful

means, can heal soul wounds. And yes if the souls desire to break a pattern is

engaged, then that will become the leading edge.... one might say astrologically

that this is the meaning of a Pluto transit..to engage the soul. As EA counselors,

that is our challenge and gift we have to offer ...how to speak to that spark...

Since EA is a Plutonian based paradigm... thats what we do...engage the soul..

In my healing work I deal very little with the left brain as regression goes

directly to emotions and the subconciouss. The left brain only comes in later,

after the expereince, to help integrate the expereince. JL Moreno ( the founder

of psychodrama) would only let his clients talk 'about' their problems for 5

minutes..then he would say "Show me", "Act it out"..that was his way of

bypassing the left brain and engaging the body and emotions....based on the

understanding that the experience of something is greater than the knowledge of

it. In astrological counseling work I use imagery a lot, as that engages the right

brain. Hint....two very simple ways to evoke an image when someone is talking

'about' a problem is to get them to describe it with a simile ( It's "as if".... or

"It's like"....)

So using the example of your friend who is working thru her pattern , one can

ask her...to FEEL what it was/is that motivated her to become involved with this

guy. Lets imagine a response that she feels a deep longing inside...

ok...great...feel that longing and then It's "as if... ?" She responds "I'm a little

girl reaching out for daddy, as he's walking away from me" ... in my work I

would have her put out her arms, reaching and FEEL that little girl..now we are

close to the root of the issue. It is the wounded little girl ( past or present life)

that is holding the complex, not her adult self and often the emotion comes right

away. And then I will work from there. Too much to describe how to work thru

imagery etc.. here..and waaaay off track ;-0 I did a lecture at last years

NORWAC and designed imaginal Pluto journeys thru the archetypes of the

possible generations i had at the lecture (Cancer-Scorpio). The journeys were

designed to evoke the core issue of each, with an image and a feeling. And then

we worked to transform the image. I was amazed at how the participants took to

these little 5 minute journeys and how profound they felt it was. I am

considering doing a Cd Book of them. The psyche is soooo creative and works on

it's own healing (homeopathic principle) if given the right stimulus and container.

Speaking of containers....

I also want to point out that the way you are engaged with your friend is, I

assume, as a friend. And even though friends ask friends for advice.. they rarely

enact it as readily as they would if it comes from someone who they have sought

out to do a session with. Personally, I keep my friends, family and clients in

separate categories ;-0

Personally I feel in our society too many people try to work things out in their

heads only.... in fact they live in their heads mostly. This is a patriarchal

bias...that the mind (masculine), specifically left brain- logic and linear thought

is superior to the emotions and body (feminine). When that left brain approach is

the only thing engaged, I feel that is when you see people spinning their wheels,

stuck in the same rut. That left brain 'monkey-mind' can spin out all sorts of

rationalizations, while not addressing or even FEELING what is really going on..

This is the main problem with most people they are in DENIAL of thier feelings.

That is why Cognitive-Behavioral therapy takes years (which is the standard

form of therapy in the US) and worse they medicate to numb the emotions.This

is what we as healers and counselors need to be aware of and work to

bypass...to get to the soft underbelly of any given complex. The left brain will

override the emotional response...this is the illness of western society, which is

mainly reductionist and rationalistic. ( I could on about this for days!!!)

This is what DH Lawrence had to say on healing...

"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections. And it is not because

the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill. I am ill because of wounds to

the soul, to the deep emotional self and wounds to the soul take a long, long

time, only time can help and patience, and a certain difficult repentance, long

difficult repentance, realization of life's mistake, and the freeing oneself from the

endless repetition of the mistake which mankind at large has chosen to sanctify."

Is it possible that the need for healing oneself has also been pushed down into

the unconscious? Perhaps it would take stronger medicine: like a Pluto transit,

or a cataclysmic event to bring about change?

Is wanting a fulfilling relationship a healthy and normal desire? That the person

would be willing to "work" through it (Saturn in Libra), to do what it takes to

fulfill that desire?

This points to the basis of EA and other forms of soul healing work..only soulful

means, can heal soul wounds. And yes if the souls desire to break a pattern is

engaged, then that will become the leading edge.... one might say astrologically

that this is the meaning of a Pluto transit..to engage the soul. As EA counselors,

that is our challenge and gift we have to offer ...how to speak to that spark...

Since EA is a Plutonian based paradigm... thats what we do...engage the soul..

In my healing work I deal very little with the left brain as regression goes

directly to emotions and the subconciouss. The left brain only comes in later,

after the expereince, to help integrate the expereince. JL Moreno ( the founder

of psychodrama) would only let his clients talk 'about' their problems for 5

minutes..then he would say "Show me", "Act it out"..that was his way of

bypassing the left brain and engaging the body and emotions....based on the

understanding that the experience of something is greater than the knowledge of

it. In astrological counseling work I use imagery a lot, as that engages the right

brain. Hint....two very simple ways to evoke an image when someone is talking

'about' a problem is to get them to describe it with a simile ( It's "as if".... or

"It's like"....)

So using the example of your friend who is working thru her pattern , one can

ask her...to FEEL what it was/is that motivated her to become involved with this

guy. Lets imagine a response that she feels a deep longing inside...

ok...great...feel that longing and then It's "as if... ?" She responds "I'm a little

girl reaching out for daddy, as he's walking away from me" ... in my work I

would have her put out her arms, reaching and FEEL that little girl..now we are

close to the root of the issue. It is the wounded little girl ( past or present life)

that is holding the complex, not her adult self and often the emotion comes right

away. And then I will work from there. Too much to describe how to work thru

imagery etc.. here..and waaaay off track ;-0 I did a lecture at last years

NORWAC and designed imaginal Pluto journeys thru the archetypes of the

possible generations i had at the lecture (Cancer-Scorpio). The journeys were

designed to evoke the core issue of each, with an image and a feeling. And then

we worked to transform the image. I was amazed at how the participants took to

these little 5 minute journeys and how profound they felt it was. I am

considering doing a Cd Book of them. The psyche is soooo creative and works on

it's own healing (homeopathic principle) if given the right stimulus and container.

Speaking of containers....

I also want to point out that the way you are engaged with your friend is, I

assume, as a friend. And even though friends ask friends for advice.. they rarely

enact it as readily as they would if it comes from someone who they have sought

out to do a session with. Personally, I keep my friends, family and clients in

separate categories ;-0

he answer to these questions to me involves Neptune, the higher octave of Venus, Libra's ruler.

Patricia said she equates "the Libran type as 'Fantasy Bonds' ( more wistful, dreamy, longing, full of unrealistic expectations and

promises) ". To me that is the Neptunian higher octave of Libra's ruler, Venus, in action. We are seeking to fulfill all those

empty places within us, projecting (Libra) their idealistic resolution onto a mere mortal, who can never live up to all that entails.

Scorpio kicks in after we have drawn that person into our life close enough to see all the ways they are imperfect and are not

going to live up to our idealistic yearnings of what someone could be. This can gradually trigger the Neptunian archetype of

disillusionment, a very difficult experience. That is the natural inconjunct between the 7th and 12th houses, inconjuncts having a

Virgo-like crisis element to them. Potentially bringing growth through the analysis of what the crisis is and what its growth

intentions are.

Disillusionment - "dis" means "take away". Thus the actual intent is to remove illusions. When illusion is gone more of actual

reality is seen. However we are quite attached to our illusions, and their loss is often experienced as painful. Then in good

Neptunian style we tend to feel like a victim, either of the other person's failings, or of the unfairness of life to which we have

been subjected, rather than taking responsibility for having created and believed in things