Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 19 SEPTEMBER 1934

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Sugar Experiment Stations, Etc., Bill. [19 SEPTEMBER.] Question. 221

WEDNESDAY, 19 SEPTEl'ilBER, 1934.

J\Ir. SPE.\KER (lien. G. l'ollock, G1· ·oory) took the chair at 10.30 <t.Jll.

I;-.;TEREST ox SAY12\('S B.\XK DEPQ~.ITS OF

~ \J_. )JUCIXES.

JI.Ir. KK'\NY (!'auk) asked the Home

" In reference to thC' decision of the pr(•sent GoYennnont di2contiuuc the practice of crediting on abori-ginal~ clcpo~it, 3n t hP SaYings Dank to the indiYidual depositors, \dwt the total interest on snch for 1933-34, and for what was the n1onoy used lll{~nt?"

The I-ICJ:\IE SECHETAHY (Hon. E. J\il. I-Ianlou. !thaca) replied--

"£5,316 12s. 6-d. (a) The indnstrial and social development of the aboriginal settlements; (b) medical and food relief to indigent aboriginals in the country an cl on scttlcrn<:nts; (c) rnedical survey and treatment of the nomadic blacks."

llir. JY!organ.]

222 Precedence of Go1·ermnent [ASSK\fBLY.] Business on 'Thursdays.

PAPERS.

rrhe fo~lowing papers Wf'l'C laid 011 the b ble, and ordered to be printed:-

Annual Hcport of ihe Under Secretarv for J\Iin0s for the year 1933. ·

Thirh-second Annual Report of the C~m:rnissioncr of Ta-;:c:s on the O[JCrations of thP Incorne Tax Acts during the year 1933-34.

Nineteenth Annual Report of the Comrnissioncr of TaxPs on the operations of the Land Tax Acts during the year 193-3-34.

Rtport by GoYcrnn1cnt A11alvst and Chief Inspectm of Explosh-cs for the ~-car 1933--34.

r:l~he follo\\-ing paper~ \YL'l'C' lnid ou the table:-·

Ore\· r in Co·1ncil undrr " The Cou l't ~\.et of 1921."

Fortv-~ixt h .._\r:r:l1a 1 Report ili r <·i or.> of Quce11sland I.Irni!ccl.

of thc Trustees,

PRECEDEc-JC!<~ OF CO<;ERXi\IE:\'T llCST:'\TESS OX THL'RSD.",_,_ YS.

The PRE:I.IIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Jfac 1.·a,11): I nlOYo-~

" That during the remainder of this session, nn le~s ctlwl"~·i~c ordered Govr~rnrrW11t b~1sjnc··..; do tak...; prec~dcnc~ on _l_hnr'rlny llt each w0ek."

M•· ... MOORE (clnliiun.:;) [10.3:1 a.m.]: I lbnk H n.the;· eoon thus t.o curtail the I~nvdegC's of rrle!JJbcrs of th1_J :House. Par­liament a-djourned in December last year and <lid not meet agam until the middle of A_ug-u>3t of this year; and I cnnnot sec anv Yltal urgency for this <·urtnilment of th;, pl'1YilPge:-:, cnjoy~d by DlC!nbcr :.. It appear . .:; 1·athcr extraordmarv to me that a Labour GoYC'l'nrnPnt \>IJO 110:-5c as the chanlp1ons of fr~·e ·"]H~c-cl~ ~nc1 opeu dif:'cussion, shon1d cur·­tail the pnnlcges of members of this House on C\"el'y possible oc.casion. It was a Labour Go,-ernment who introduced the svstem of double davs on the Eotimates. Thev also mtrodLlCed th~ restriction of the debate en the Addre" m Reply to four de.':s. unlc·.s otherwise ordered. This motion i~ ·anotl1cr instance of this restriction. PriYate nwni­Ucrs' . day affordl:l an occasion to memb;rs to brmg forw":rd subjects-sometimes acacle· rrnc. or sometimes snch as rnav fornl ih: basts of future lcgisla tion in 'this Hou '·C.

I can hardly understand why the r-rivate members on the opposite side of the Ilonsc should a'\ree to the curtailment of th<e pri vi­logos YYlnch they ha,·e tho right to enjoy. After all, these ]ll'lnlog·w; have become ours b_y custom, and a curtailn1Pnt on one OoJCa­Slon fonns a precedent, and such precedents are \"cry often used by the following Parlia­D18nt., ' hatover Gorcrn:nPnt n1av be jn pO\Yt'r. }.his and othe!' priYileges l~f1YO brcn '\·;on clnr1ng D long' 1wriod of rears. PriYate J1Iomhcrs' cla:v giycs to priYa.to ll10111l1ers of ~hi~ IIon_sc tl~e right to briug- for.· ard sub­Ject.-". wluch the;· nHty. not ha Ye an oppor­tunl\Y to ach·anc0 c}unng the con.:idcration of Go..-PrnnlC1lt l)lFllnc~ . I cannot undpr­sb1nc1 tht~ rea on for this t 1.tln:r!'e. which ~is a1.1 P!ldcayo·n· to \vhi_ttl_(' a--.·ay th,< priYilcge~ of the. m0mbcrs of _thH .Ifoll~t'. I ( 111 imagine that 1f the Prc:tncr vvcro in onp0~~ition he would be strenuon" in hi." ro·~cntn1cnt nt f'uch a sugge~tecl curtallrnent of the privi-

rMr. Moore.

l0ges of members of Parliamf'nt. rrhe P·cc­mier shonlL! be one of the first to uphold tl1cm. :.vrembrrs wl1o arc c1Pctf'd to this 1Ionse }JftYf1 errtain ri£rhts. some of ,,·hicl:J! arc set ont in the StA.ndinQ." Ord0rs. and some pri,·ileg·c.;:; gn1nec1 b.v cu.-.;1-orn and others c-rc--:+:-d }Jy the Go,·onrolent of the day. ~\ft('f all, becan:".C ihe CoYcrnrncnt happCn to ]JaYP a n1<liorit:v. n1ust cn?l'Y lnerribE'r sit­ting b0hind tLat CfoYC'rnmcnt .'uplncly agrc'l to the rPn:o,·al of thn'"C' priYikgc~? IviernbPrs ~itting 1'C'hind the Governmc:nt 1HlYe the

rip:ht tn l1ring- forvYard pri,-atf' nwrn­hns;nr ,.::; as '"~"C' on thi;;: sid(\ and in

pa:-t hnyc availcd thcrn 'lYr~ of it. )fan;7 n1attcr·" brong·ht for- an1 on priYate n~C'tnbcr~' da rni~ht not me('t \Yith the

.nn·oy ,] of th0 C~o-.enlllH hut Ilf'\'('rfhc-1P~S mi~~ht conbin thi1.t rnct witll t1w apprOYf\l of public. and wcrD of m·:' to tlw people yy]JO elected the n.

The SEC'tETAHY FOR LAnoeR Axn I;.,riJT:rST"RY : ThC' tin10 of th(' 1Iotl'C i~ lBLHtJ1,- wast0d in !J:Frilc ['Ol:tic::tl propag-anda. .

-:\'f,· rrnitc nnd('l':~tnnd the CalJil;C't F flY c1i''C'n~.;:ion, fo1· durinu· Ccrt1_.in mnonnt of critici.-:;n1 n1a': ~tgainst t.lH'lll; but that clo('s n'ot ro~·o\~e the Govc1·nt~10nt P. ju~tiflt'd in st!fii11g cnttc1sm. I 1-hink there w::- s one other ocrasion y; hen l vvas

ln th~s 1Im_l.SP O'' \Yhich privatr m.en1-w.>; >Cl:{· out cntireh·. and thrq-, "\'3~

y-h~n Pa.rliarnPn.t rnC't very late ju.st aft0r an clcction-~about

Tn tho~n circnn1 ,tanccs po:-.;:ibl:­there waR a jnstifteation for the action. but I can re!nC'rnhcr well that on a 1nore recent oc< asion the prcRent Premier obji'ctccl \"cry Rtrong·lv to the pri,·ileges of this House being curtailed, and sug~esting if ii v-,Tas necessary for the Go<·ermnent to get on with the busi­ness thev should have met earlier anrl that there had been ample opportunitv for them to do so.

I record my protest on this occasion. It is not directed to a prevention of discussion on any particular business that Vil3~ coming forward, but to the whittling away of th-e rights and priYileges of members· of this House which they have enjoyed for many ~·ears. That is wrong in principle. I do not anticipate that mv protest will hayc any effect, but I saY that it is the dntv of the Govmnment as· well as the Opposition to cndeaYonr as far as possible to see that men elected by the people to Parliament have sernrcd that ample and free opportunity which has been acquired by custom or throngh the Standing Orders to enable them to Ycnti­]nto any gi:icYanrP in this J-To 1Jse or bring forwarfl subjects the di ru<>sion of ~,·hich rna;r be in the interests of this H olFC and the people outsidf'. PriYatc members' da~v giyes an opportunity for di. cues ion of subject, that mav be of interest io this Ilo!Fe, but ilre ceri:ainlv of interest to the people. It is wrong that so earlv in thf' se~:;:ion l11i::; right should be ('1Hl!1.11Pd \Yhen there is 1~0 nrgcnt nPc'·~~itv for doing_· ,'30. The Premier has not said th0rc \Y<~s an'{ vital 1ll'Q'f'nc v for it. and on the state o.f the• bnsi{lco::~-J;apf'l~ for to-da.v thPrc to be no real nq!·enc:-~. 'Mo~~t of f- 110 for clisrtF .ion are sn1all Bills and re non-cont0nt;ous llleRSHl'€'8.

1\fr. KEKJ\'Y (Cook) [10.43 a.m.]: The Premier hn.~ g-i\'f'll tho llonsP no reason \Yh:;7 hP i~ rnoving this n1otion nt this stage and the only conclusion I cfln arrive at is

Precedence of Government [19 SEPTEMBER.] Business on Thursdays. 223

that he wi,lws lo .sliflo discus -ion on the n1olion 1vhich I haYo 011 the bns1ne"'s-sheet~

in vje\Y of i11 the ratu of

011 C: OYC'l'Dilit'llt lon_ ll~ 1 )Jp

int•_l'(·d ncnv char~ Pd to

p an iu;;;tn;ctio!l "tn the Co\-crnlnenL to :~•!e-h raic; L) 4 l'C'l' cent."

under lll,Y intportanciJ to Qneeu··land and partirular1,y to n1y electors. The l)rcrnicr evidently has recognised its ii1lportance inasHlnch as he rcccntl:, lTirrdc the ~tatnrH'JJt that lnL're:-:-t rate in qnestion "·ould Le reducccl 1 per cent.

~1Ir. SPK.\KEll: Onler! The hon. HH:lnbcl' rnust kno\v that cYcry Sp(~aker '\Yho has Leen in charg. of the debates in this Hou" h;b rulPd that no hon. member is entitled to disn'"• under the hca.ding of one n1otion, another motion 1vhich is already on the bnsiness-sheet. The hon. member will bo cn1 it led to giYe reasons wllv the rnotion moved l>:v the Premier be not agreed to, bnt under cover of that he is not entitled to dis­CH.'?S another rnotion on the businf''is-shoct.

l\Ir. KENl\JY: I had no intention of dis­cus~ing the rnotlon because I knew you would rul<', Mr. Spcak0r, that it could not bo dis­eu;;;sed. I \vas mercl:v pointing ant that tho PremiPr wos aware of the value of the motion and that consequently his action was taken with a view to stifling a debate on the matter. 'vV e ou this si do of the House are not content to allow the Government to take the busine"s of this House completely into their own hands. We have rights as private members, and as an Opposition it is our intention to preserve those rights.

The SECRETARY FOR p CBLIC LAXDS inter­jected.

:\It-. KEI\~NY: I know that the Deputy Leader of the Government would give us no rights.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order!

Mr. KEKNY: Although our rights appear to be comparatively few !hey arc still such that meml.Jcrs on the Government side of the Hou shnnld be prepared to join us in pro­tecting those rights. If they arc content to pennit tlw Pren1ier to stifle discu .. -;ion in their own pnrty roon1 nnd preve11t their exercising their right~ in ~hi, House, we are not prepitred to be ·' YYhippcd up" by the PrmniE'r in the sa1ne way. This is ol1o of those rights that haYe been granted to this and othPr Pal'iianH?nts o....-cr a. rnnnlJer of years. Such action as has been t<1 ken by the Premier has not been taken so f a.r as n1y knowledge goes, since 1920. In 1920 I'arlia­tnent n1et in November, aftE~r the elections in October of that vcar. There was thus an .argun1m;t in fa;·voul: of GoYernrnent lJnsincss at once taking precedence. \IV e ha YG just met. Only last week we aclj ournecl in order

that members conld take pa1't in a political cetmpaigll. 'fhat should not ha.Ye been necf's­sorv. \Ye on this sido did not ,pnt the adj~Jurnn1c11L nnJ if GoYcrnment business is ::o it could }J<:t Ye been brought for-\Yart1 that \\"C'C'k. 1~p the present \\ ,, ha re not had notice of from the Prernicr tLat tbis }1ousc on Fridav to Llcal \Y:th Uo\"Cl'lJHltnt I am ciuito prepared to sit each week, COlllUl_f'L 111:; i._hj~ bu~i-JJ: ":3 1s so at tho dwPt I find of

cc:;-LC) 1·· n r_1 L ,:..;t f't·ssion, hon, y, ill }'( l ·'lkc-t. t\YO ll10tions (TC 1110YC.d by J:tclnLcr,. 011 the side for dis-

c!' Y. Both Ycero Yit'~v to l)olitical

days, I suppo::;::.c, \Yore 11art.:, in order

cal1itctl out of those motions. \YPr" working up an elcc­

To·day, when v·c havo of irnporta.ncc, '\VD .are

told in clroct is to be ,stifled. ~.Icmhcr7-; oE tho otl1cr ;,,id(' of tl~P Ifou:-.e should l.Jo !he last in the Y~orld to cndcavoUJ' to ::;::.tiflo cl]:"cu~sion. Tb0v clainJ to be the clwwpions of free speech. and the rip:hts of the indiYi.daal. The Leader of the Oppooi­tion has alreadv reminderl thrl Home that the GoYcriunent ,:, ere rospons.ihlo for double rlavs on the Estimates and the shortening of· the time it !I owed for the debate on the Aclclrcss in Reply. Tho:' \core also respon­sible for initiating- the proxy Yote a.nd for the lbC of the " gag " in this Chamber.

l\Ir. SPEAKER: Order !

:\fr. KE:'\KY: I desire to point out that the Labour Government hitYe decided that they will not giYe to members of this House the right of having· their priva.to members' dac If one daY \vas allmn•d I "·ould not ob]ect ·O much, -;,wl the withdrawal of even that one clay is to my mind evidence of a desire on the pa.rt of the Government . to stifle discussion on a motion with whwh they do not agree. If hon. members oppo­site desire to use private me1nbers' day merely to indulge in political propaganda, we do not. l\1anv matters of vital concern to the primary r)rocluccrs and to the com­rnunib· as a ''hole can be listed for clJscus­sion i~ tbis llonsc on private men1bers' day. I hold that mv notice of motion comes ,,-ithin that c:tte,~ory, and the Premier, even at this late stage, would be wise to recon­<iclcr his decision and allow hon. members at l<'ast one ditv in which to discuss a matter initiatP.d by a"' private rnen1ber. There is no doubt that manv other matters brought fonva.rcl for discussi~n ill provide an ample opportunity to hon. rncmbors to discuss the sul.Jject-matter of mv notice of motion, but that would entail tho sacrifice of a debate unon rnanv other ....-ital matters that merit a~lequate discussion. However, I suppose that \ve are expected to sacrifice our rights in thitt direction in order to satisfy the wishes of the Pn'mier and his part}'. My notice of motion is of vita.! concern to the primary procluc.crs of Queensland and there is no j11sti'1cation for sidestepping it at all. If Govennr1ent mernbers are not prepared to join 'Yith the Opposition in protesting ngainst this denial of their rights then I warn them that their action will be used against them at a later elate.

1JJ1·. Kenny.]

224 Precedence of Government [ASSEMBLY.] Business on Thursdays.

l\1r. CL_\ YTON (Wide Hay) [10.45 a.m.]: vVe have hem·d many complaints from time to time about the action of Governments in depriving pri,·ato members of their rights and pri ,-ilogcs in this House, but to-day the Uovcrnment sec fit to sink the destructive axe still further by depriving them of the opportunity of debating, for even one day. a matter initiated by a private member. The opening of Parliarncnt was dc1aycd to allow tho Premier to be at the helm, and that del a v was occasioned bv the fact that he took .. a health hip ovc•rscas. Parliament \VLts rdso fldjonrnC'd fol' 011e w<'rk to enable GoYC'rnrnc·nt n1cn1 bcrs to ta kl part in the rcc·ent Fedc ·al clrct1on iu an en~

to 'Yin tht' Senate rwt I think I think

tl10 attcnt mernhcl s to t11c rc1narks that \Yerc~ rnado by rncmb-_,rs of iho prC:'Pilt Go\ t'l'lltllent IY}Jcn in op])0-1-ticn when the then Pret11icr 1novcd .a. Tnotion ~irnil<lr to \Yhich has bC'on mo\ cd by the l'r c•micr In 1931, the la~t =· 0-ar of the Yloorc C~ovnrnment, Par­li:l_ment a:;';r;nlbled on 21st .July, but the rnot1on that G OYC'l'lnncnt business do take pt'Ccr'dcnco on Thursday aftcruoons \Yas not nw~.~cd until 2nd Sept~mbcr. PriYato Jnmn-

were n1lo\Yccl <U11p1e· tin1c in ·which to and di::::cuss various nu1ttcr.3 of im-

portance: they had op)lortnnitJ to use .a. priYi1ege that Pnjoycd by hon. rncrnbors for ul:'nv years. On that ocul~.ton pri,-atn rnP111Lei·s "\YC're allowed to exercise th(~ir privih:.~o o\-er a. period of seYcn or eight week~., nnd it is interesting to recall the remarks of flrG(Pst that were utter<'d when the then Deputy Premier moved a motion simllar io the ono 'vhic!1 has been moved to-day. The then Leader of the Opposition, now the Premier of the State, said-

" I rise to oppose tlu· motion. In moving the motion the Deputy Leader of the Government said that ho made no apology for so doing-another indication of the machine-like soullces character of the policy carried out by the present Go­vernn1ent.''

Talk about soulless character ! \Vhy thoro is no soul a.t all in the Premier in bringing forward this motion at this stage and thereby depriving hon. members of the opportunity, for cycn ono day, of voicing opinions on a matter initiated by a private member. Further on ho said-

" Parliament should protect its rights. Private n1om bors' business can be made very valuable. There are occasions on record whore Bills of groat value to thfl people of this Strrte have been based on discussions which took place on pri­vate rnen1bers' Jay."

Further on, >Yhon protesting against the priYilea·e being taken from him~he seeks to take it from us to-day-he said-

" I am sure that the Premier would not argue that the (:}o ... Tcrnnlent should hrtYe control of all the business brought before this I-Iouse. }iembers o[ Pa.rlia­rncnt should hrLvc tlw rirrht to initiate cliscnssion on rnattcr~:; affrcting pubhc iutcrcst; and the c,uTying of a tnotion of this killCl. after onlv two da'·s haYC Lecn al1o-,yed to privc;tO nH:rr1berS, is an outragL' on the principle of control of F arliament by the members thereof,

and I am entirely opposed to it at this juncture.''

[JIT. Clayton.

Mr. Speaker, you will also remember the remarks of prote~t uttcrnd by the hon. n1crnbet for Grcgor:v on tha.t occasion, and the p;-csent Home Secretary had this to say-

"It is ncarlv tirnc hon. rncn1bers rcGJiscd the irnp;l'tancc of priYa.tc D1Ctn­bers' dn,v. The hon. nren1bcj_' who has just spoken-"

th<:Lt "'>Yas the hon. mmnbor for I,~is-·~ is c•ntirely \Vron:~· wlwn l1c says pri­vate rnembcrs arc proYidec1 later in the

\\·i th the sarnc opportunity and that they have on vrivate

n1crubcrs' da""":~."

1[e ,,,-cnt on vigorously to protest. against the rnution, There is n lso a nice little titbit fi'cnn ihu for Labour awl l11dustt::.

·'I My

I•

to great oxtt'1lt and thiK afternoon reference

tna de to soniC of the hnruaue and lJL'nc·ficiid lcgi~1ation \\ hjch 1'. <JS i•titiuted by priYah~ -rnorubcrs. In vic\Y of the YCL'\' fc'\\. pl'lvilcgcs \Yhich 1nc~mbers of tlw· Opposition ln1 ve had sincu the ach-cut of the present GoYCl'lliTH'nt, 1ve \""ould be foolish to allow this motion to go through without vo1c1ng our pro­test."

I e-ntirely concur with tho3e vie\vs of rnen1bcr~ of the present LalJour l\:Ii11istr_v. I cntcJ' my cm)Jhatic protest against the n1otion.

Mr. R. ::\1. KING (Logan) [10.56 a.m.]: I join with tho Leader of the Ol>position and hon. members on this side of the House in recording n1y opposition to the rnotion submitted by the Premier. The qnotations from S)Jeeches delivered by members of the Govcrnnwnt, which have boon read by the hon. member who has just resumed hi< scat, show that thoro must be a tremendous lot of political hypocri:-.1· :-tJ.~Jongst hon. n1cm­bers opposite. It shows, too, that when a certain party is in power that they are only too prone to make use of ;.>recedents estab­lished by another party which had pre­viously been in office. Speaking broadly, during the long occupancy of the Treasury benches by a Labour ::VIinistry from 1915 till 1929, many of the traditions and pri vi­le,:es of Parliament were ignored. \Ycll­establit-:hPcl forrns o.nd usages ,,·ere b·rushcd rrside and prececlc•nls established clc')Jite the protests that \vcrc made. It se ·mod extra­ordinary a few years ago that '' lwn the party who established those precedents \Yere on this side· of the House thov should take exception to a succeeding GoYoionment'~ Inak­ing use of the precedents they tho-losch·e' o<,tablishcd. and it is also extmorclinary that now thcv should once more resort tu them. Member~ of Parliament should all rccog-­ni~o that \YP H re pntitlc'd to certain rights and privileges. There are certain rights, forn1s, aud usages in eonl)edion \Vith \Yhich it 1s dangerous to e:-:-t.:~bi i;;]i. ]1l'C' cdc'nt.;:, be ... 1usc tlwy giYo an Oppo~ition the right to uwJce H"C of tho~c y,·hcn in turn thc.y are as a Gorcrnrnent, not xith,tamling that they may m•ver have thought of establishjng such precedents, and

Precedence of Government [19 SEPTEl\IBER.] Business on Thursdays. 225

thus interfering with the rights of hon. mem· hers. It is therefore a great pity tlmt there has been a tleparture from the beneficial traditional practices of the House simply for the sake of expediency. Any party temporarily in the control of the reins of Coyernment should dee<11 it their bounden duty to uphold tlw rights and pri,·ilcges. tho traditions, and usages of the House and see that nothillg is do11e to establish pre­cedents \Yhereby hon. nwmbcr~ are dcpri,-ed of those priYilcges. forn1s, ancl usnf_~e-, which haYe been ostaLlif.llwd for so many years.

::\fr. EDV{ATIDS (K1uanyo) [10.58 a.m.]: The Prctnier is wrong in lllOYing this motion. a· the statements he made on behalf of his pa rly in this House in 1931 clearly prove. Nothing !ws happened sinc0 to cause hirn to change his rni11d on such qn important mai,ter. One thing itself -that is, that the Premier fears thing frig·htful will happen if the continued any length of ti111e, and the of the Federal election impels him to finish thi, .. sr"ion as quickly as possible. That is the only possible reason foe his n10Ying this motion. The statements read bv the hon. member for ·wide l3ay show that the Jhe­mier and his colle;-t]Ucs were once opposed to hon. mcrubcrs being cleprivL'c1 of the right to 1nalu: u,.;e of priYate nwrnhers' day. The:v used all the argurncnL that could be used against its elimination. ·what could hne happened in the meantime to make the Pro· mier feadlll and seized with the clesin; to bring the session to a close as quickly a, pos>rble?

I think that you, l\Ir. Speaker, wiil ag-ree that }lJ'iYa1e rrcnlLL'rs' da:v al'fords an oppor­tunity to elirninatc the !_JartJ f(~PliHg wllich animatls n1ost hon. ncen1hcrt:. _l.t lca~t, for a time, tl1at party feeling i::; allo\\·ed to wane and fr~quently matters of Yital iutcrc_t to thP country are clisf'nsscd in a Sllirit of tolcrntion. Frorn tlnt v~)int of Yicv,· alonn it is desirable that the rirrhts of lJOn. lm'm· bcr~ in rpgar.d lo priY;_~l<' Illelllbcr:-;' day should not be cnrtailt•rl. If this motion is ea nice! it "~ill mean that no O]l portunity will be giYen to bring fonYanl matters that n1ight po"-sibly bo of frrr-reaching irnportancc to the• State. 1 thncfore that the PrcnJiol' \vithclraw n1otion. Th(' hon. rnPnlbor fol' Cook ~avc notice of •~ 1notlon fur tbe ri1·st private nu~rnbcrs' rby to cli;o:;cuss the advisabilitv of the Government's rcdnc-ing the interc<t ch,nged by the ,\gricul. tural Bank. It to be noted that the Premier has derided to redt:ce that interest ra tc a ftcr tb c 1st ,] an uary next.

i\h. SPK.\ KER : Order 1

l\lr. ED\Y ARDS : I »ill not continue on those linet'; I am Jncrcly pointing out the in1portancc of this quP-tion.

J\lr. SPEAKER: Order!

:\Ir. EDW~'l.RDS: l\'o one kno\n '\·hcther there wi1l be a general reduction.

l\Ir. SPEAKER: Order!

Mr. ED\Y \RDS: \Yhcthcr there will be a general n'duction of intercot or not.

l\lr. SPEAKER: Orrlcr! If the hon. nu:mbcr persists in r11s1·cgarding my call to ordPr a.nd in discnsqing a rna tt0r \,'ith whic·h ho knows he is not entitled to deal. he will. Y:itl1out fu1·tlwr warning, be asked to resume his seat.

1934-r

11r. EDWATIDS: From the standpoint of the important questions I have mentioned, the Pre1nicr is absolutely wrong in intro­clLwing this motion [ say quite dcGnitcly that, g.'ncral!y speaking, hon. rr1C111bcrs on t ho back Government benches arc mabng a jok" of this Parliamr'nt. That is to be denlorccl. I-It'rc. whc11 we might haye son1o opi1ortunity of discussing quo:;:.tions of grave lmportanro to tho llCoplc of (lueensland, frcr•d frum the spirit of part:v politics. the· opportunit~~ is denied us. \Yh:v is that? \Yhat ans\nT coHld tho Pr(-')l1Iicr giYo to that question this 1norning, :"~~cing tlu~t ho hirnsclf dcfinitclv ndvouLtcr1 tho contiuuance of nrivate 1110inbcrs' day vd1cn he spoke on a. prcYious occ.a~ion.

SlY~\ YXE (.lfimri) [11.5 a. m.]: One charges 'vhit h the }Jub~ic rnake the pa.rlianwutary sy~tcrn that

i~ a nwrc party n1nrhine in no oppol'tnnitv is given for the of iiJitiat.iYe bv indiYidunl rncrnber:o;, aud llOS­siblv that "is on· of tho rog ons \vhv in. n cCnt year the~ prestige of PadimncntS has l1een lo1:ren:J. Thf~ al1olition of priYate n1embcrs' dav is a step tO\\tl!'(ls ju~tif:ving this opinion." The opportLmity to di,·uss qacstious of irnportance on priYatc Il1f'm~ lll'rs' clav is one thnt is highlY valued otnd ha::; Leer; productive of rnnch g,ood in tiu1cs gone by. I know that jn recent year t.·wo rc ... o1ntions nlOYcd bv private n1Cn1bcrs haYe rc--ultr cl in the pa..;sitgr~ nf nppropriatc h xis­latlou bY thi~ Parliarnent. 1 tni~dJt, for t":rtmplc." rd"r to the adYocacy of the com~ pnL:mry u~P of pO\Yer alcohoL and to ~-he snggo~t.ion put fonnud on another occas1on that the costs of litigation might with ac1Yantagc he consirleraLly rcducecl. These arc but hYo in!'tancrs whc~·c suggestions that haYe cn1anatcd fron1 priYatt~ n1cn1h0rs have ~ater on been {T\~stulliscd in l0gisla-tion that was bPncficial to the public. I cannot eo ally good rr'aSOll ''"h:v tll8 priYilc,gcs of pri­vate mC'mbcr,, 'honld be t;tken a\vay. If this motion is put into dfC'ct it \Yill bo e'tablishing a clangcorous prcccdent which ,., ill be used by futmo CoYernmcnts as a reason \Yhy pri,:.atc rncnlbPrs' day should be elirninatl~d. In Yiew of those facts I think nwmbcrs on both sides of the I-Iou c should YOtc against the l'ldolution.

:\Jr. RGSSELL (Jlumilion) [11.7 a.m.]: I wonld like the Premier to giYe hon. mem­bers some valid reasons as to \Yhy this priyi]cge should b,~ abrogated.

The PRE7UER: I will do that all right.

::VIr. HUSSELL: The Premier contented hirmelf bY mm~ing the motion, and by so doing I clo not think he shmYed sufficient courtesv to the H ouso. If the Premier had pnt fo;ward Yalid reasons we might have Lc•'n inclined to ap;rec \v-ith him. There a-re t.imPs when private 1nembcrs' business should be ·-et a:cicle in order that urgent matters may receiYe the attention of the lion:-;c; but l run afnud, .as \Yas ~rud by r1nothrr hon. n1crnbcr. that the privi!eu;cs of Parliament are being whittled awa:·. \Ye have the spectacle year after year of the oTadual ~lirninntion of rights of Il1Crnbcrs ~[ the House bv the Cabin et. 'I' he C:abinet rules the roo3-t ~and n1cn1bcrs supporting the GoYernmont hav-e little to sav. It is a pity hon. n1ernbcrs sitting Lchinrl fllc Govcrrunent do not (~xprc~~ their vic~.Ys more frcquciitly. l think this privilege, \\hich is highly prized

JJir. Russell.]

.226 Preccdenc" of Government [ASSE:.\IBLY.J Business on Thursdays.

in otlwr parts of the Empire. should not bo set asiJc unless Yery good reasons arc add uccd.

I do nut SC'C anv rt.:rson for rcrnoving this privilege so earlY in the sc,,sion. I a_d1nit that at tin1cs the diEcussions on pnvatc .tnernber~' da.y have bnen futile a.nd v~·ithout result; hut t'tu•rc is no reason \vhy n1cmbcrs should not he rdlo\ved this privjlego i:n order -that rnatters of public in1porta:nco rnav be discus~.scd. I \Yould like to sec pnvato n1c1nbPrs encouraged to utilise ihis privilcgt~ n1or0 than thcv ha vc clone. \ll the ln the I-Iousc {~ not jn tht1 sole nH~uJbers of the Cnbinct. There arc other hon. n1c111bers in this }louse experienced in rnauv rnatll'J'-, and I think their counsels shon'!d b" Ji,tPnod to, After all. th~ object of :P<nlian1ent is to eua·ct legislation for the good the ,,.hole community and rho ll10l'C' the interests of nH'nllJcrs the bcttc>r it <S for the State. I trnst the Pro· rnicr 1Yil1 ~ee his wav clear not to proceed \Yith tllis 1notion a1lc1 thus allo,~. priYate U1CillL( l'': an opportunity to utili::;e the priYi­lcgc tlwt !hey htlno enjoyed so long. To­\li.'at·J~ the c]o...:c of the session. if there vverA a conr:·c':;;tioll of busincs ". 110 one "\vou1d

to it abol i<hcri for the time ; bnt if nloti\)l1 is carried to-day

a b1e<~, prcooclent ,.-ilJ :_ Cl'<·1tcd and ;::U{'C( L-:I"OYcrnnwnrs 1nay use their poln~r to abroba.tt' priYate n1nnbe!'s' Jay alto­gC'tllC'l'.

I think hon. 1ncmbcrs should c}tcrish this priYilcr~e. I, for one. wonld hesitate to dcpri \·c 1nmnbers of Parlian1e11t of privi­lf'gt ~ that ha n) been enjoyed for generations. \-\~l1iL"t I 1\·ns in London I had the priYilego of listening to a cldJnt(' on private n1en1~ bers' l~ay Rncl it ]lrOY('d rnost interesting. ThP hen. lYJE'nlbcr IYho introduced the lnea­sun~ gaYe th< llouso Ycry good information, and n Y'~ry iu!'-tructivo dolJato ensued. 1 thiuk "" might emulate tho :Mother of Parliaments.

l hopcl t.ho Premier will not proceed with the motion now. If he wishes to bring it .on at a later stage of tbe session the Opposi~ tion 1nay agree ·with hint.

:\Ir. ::'\BilVIO (Oxlcy) [11.11 a.m.]: I clcsiro to reord 1ny protcf:t against this motion. Hon. members in this House-members of the Opposition at any rate-ha.Ye few privi· legps in the initiation of bn:::inc:is. I feel that at lc•ast tho motion now on the shoct shonld be dealt with bv thD House. The priYilcgc of private nlernhcrs should not be Y\hittlcd awav. Thev should have the opportunity of bringing 'matters qefore the Chambc1· and have them discussed to the advanbige of the Statr. To-day hon. nJ.Clll­bers haYe no opportunity of discussing cer­tain rnattcrs. The regulations unde-r tho State Transport Act. for example, were laid on the table of the House but hon, members had no Oflportunity to discuss them. In Yiew of fact that the GoYcrnor's Spooch djscloscs no leg-islation of any in1port-ance is to bo brought before the House this se~sion ~ ntl seeing "that the Ecssion has prqc­tically only just commenced. there is no justification for the motion. It seems to me to be just a method of curbing members of the Opposition, A motion by the hon. 111ember fm Cook already on the business· shePt, has done •Yonderful work already. Rcall,·, it has aohie.-ed its object. Nm·er­thPless, we desire to discuss it. JYianv other .matters eocdd also be brought forward.

[i~h. Russell.

I vent,ure to sa v the Premier would be •vell achiseci either ·to withdra'" the motion or have it amended. I do not intend to wasto the time of the Home. ])<•cause I feel that it \Yonld be futile as the 1najority arc agair:st u::;. I do enter n1v protc,si, and to ClnphaslsO it, 1 rrloYe the f0lltnvinp: arncndrncnt :-

" Add to the motion the •vords-' proYidet! that this sha 11 not apply nntil thf' n1otion alreadv on tilt: businc'·,s-::.hc{'t has been- dispo.:~cJ of.'"

:Ylr. DEACON (!'unninuham) [11,12 :, .. m.]: I support the rpac..onablt: rt.Ju0nd1ncnt mo,~C>cl b,· tlw hon. mPmbcr for Oxlcy. After all, there is a motion on the br: ,]ne.ss-:·dwct in the na1ll0 of the Lm1. n1ernber for Cook, which is of thP intc'J'(•st to eYc-ry man 111 the cou11trv. be. at lea,t, cliscn' ~ [ clo not t-bink I am 1·oo Dltt('h. [ Ctniic understand that th0 Pn•micr iEJ dP:-:;iron:· of haYing busi­nr;,,s pnt tllrough tlh' I-1ou.:;-c- e~:)cclit1ous~y, Lut at t!Jc .lmc time I think it t.\·ould be 1v1se to c1<·fpr his 1Dotion until cli~·posa] of the rnotion a]l'c:-~dv 011 tl·c~ I he "Will o·i\"()- COn ·" 1m•·.t•n><

\\'c haYC' ~1wa,yr~ ll.l'P called priYate nlclnbcrs' it i;) rather too PJrlv in this our priYilc"!C in thi's re3pcf·L to be takr'u <r·· ~t.v, e pncially \Yhen ,._-c already haYe a n:oiion on the .o;hQeL

Mr. 1\IAX\n<:LL (J'oowong) [11.13 a.m,]: I de~irc to support ;-;onw opiniC?ns that h<_n-_o hCE'll ('XTHC'"·l'd in COllnPciion With the Jll'lYl­h'ge~ o{ priyatc membo·r~. b:lt I want to ,t:ay frst thut thPre 1s a tcndt<ncy 011 the part of the Goycrnment to filcl1 frmn private Inf'n1-

bcrs the ri£dJt and pri ,-jkge~ to ·which t1H:C-Y arc ju-tl;, ~ntitled. \Y·e ~.s law-nbidi1 .~; c_iti-

rnu"t prot' 't ap;am't !he hnllymg of hon, nH•mbcrs on the other side.

In one ~ens c. l:o\YPYC'l'. the· re~olution niOYcd bv the Prerniei' can l1c said to haYo done a yast antount of good. lH'canst' it has exposf•d to the pulJlin th(' incou~i:::tcr!f'Y of. hon. lllC"tll­

her~ oppo~,,ite. The 01 l]H -nt1on 1s a tyoccc:,_ sitv to thi' IIoncC', \Ye haYo pract1c Jly onlv conlntcncr-d this :-~(·ssion, but lJOt\vith­f'-tcu\ding that fact y, c hrrd an adjournnu~nt for one vn:ek for a pnrpo'3c I do not propcsc to discus:-', and no\\ \YL' ;:ue nH~t ag::1in f~1r t.hc purpOse of ran·ying on the lntsinc·;:;:-:; of this Stale, At pre"Jllt I am not concerned \\ ith tl1c rncriL::~ or c:crru'rits of the re- olution brought f~rv;ard b~~ t_hc hon.J rncr:>1lwr. f\~r Cook. It 1s the prltlctplo of .!10 t rrnncr 2

proposal thnt I am c-oncerned •virh. \\"<:have r1glJts as l)riYatc nletnbers. and I dC'·;;1rc t~ protc•st against the withdra\nll ,,f, any o! tho"' rights. I lw.-e a dim rcrollcctwn that when tho LaLour GoYennncnt "~ere' 111 po,xcr sonH.' YC'<ll's <J,Q'O an hon. lllClnbcr on that sidG intC<rj~cted dnrin~ n dpbute: " \Yhat is the good of wu.-til_lg by?nr t_ime on that? Yo}~ are onlv wa'·,tntrr tlw tune of the IIouse. l-Ion. 1n'ombcrs o71 the Govennncnt side 1nay bo of tho .smnc opinion this morning, but thev must rPco~·niso that ITlCJTib('rs arc here to clo their job. and ''e on this side at least are doin(r it. \Ye are not Yllaf'hincs, nor arc ''e tools ~to he used at the whim or caprice of a lead,,c \Ye do not ea~·. as was said by a supporter of the pre,ent Government, " \Ye haYc n1ade up onr nnnds 1n caucus that tho Bill is going throug'h as it is. and it is going throngh.n

Mr. W. T. KrxG: \Vho said that?

::\Ir. SPEA KEH: Order!

Precedence of Government [19 SEPTE~IBER.] Business on Thursdays. 227

Mr. JI.L'cXii ELL: Permit me to draw the attention of the :\1inistor for Transport to something- which appeared on pago 598 of " Hansard \) for 1931. The ~1oore GoYl'rn­mrnt at that tirrw harl permitted private rnember~' dav to continnc. It was not until certain husinCss and rnotion~ on the busincs">­papcr \Vere dispo .eJ of that any attcn111t \Yas Inadc to take away the pri\·ilcgc. rrhP hon. rncrnber for ~lunclingburra, 110\Y ~lini.;;tcr for Transport, :::noYcd an anwnchnont. to a motion whid1 cl ea it with the prccoclenro of GoYennnent businc;;;:9 on Thur:::.daY. It "\Ya·;;

111 thc-:e tenns- , " A del to the motion the "or cl

p1·ovi<lcJ thct this shall not operate until the lllOtioa;.; And ::11ncnchnf'nt alrr-'ldv 011 1lte hu~lnc~s-:;-hPct arc dis­pc:scd ·of.' •J

The hon nH'rnbcr for Oxlev l1vs .:::omP1-Yl1at :--in1i!ar HlucndruPl~t, I t dl hmw-.ti··· {'lain, the YOte of for TraJL·D01:1" in fayour of it. dai1ncd ttat the ad ion of the ycrnnwr:t \Ya~ y;:rong, bnt two ~\TOllg-S Hot 111akt' u ri2·ht. On tl1·1t cKca-.;ion l10n. nleln­br•r< oppo;itc> \'.·ere f'ighting for what they tC'l'nJPd tl!Pir lni,~iJr•gC'~. lmi I haYe already poi11tPcl out that th<•y had 1 IH'Il <'lljoved for :-onH~ tirnc the right to discnsfl c0rtain Inattcrs initiated Ly rwi\ ate lll{'Dlbcr:::;.

The ho;l. uicmlwr for 1-Tlrani 1Jas referred to tht• ttood rc·-..u1ts that follO\Yed some clchate::; 0,1,1 priYJ.tc nwrnhers' cla;~. I protest nlo:-;t \~igoroi...l-J)' against the aiten1pt of thn Pn'nJiPr to pl'CYcnt priYatt' !llClllbl'rs frotn initiating rnatters that undoubteJ]y would bC' for the intcrc'-1-~ of the c-oinJnunitv as a \\·hole. ·

The PHE:\1TER (Hon. iY. Forgan Smith, Jlac!. 7.1/) fl1.20 a.m.]: The rca,ons for mov· ing- the re:o:;o]ution arc obYiou~. Tllf'rP arc Bill, on the bu><incc,o-dwet which tlw Go­YPrllHlrnt nr-:: nuxious that Parliarncnt should con:->id(•r, but then: i~ no btrsinp:.:;s undf'r thn heading of private mctnbC'r_,./ day. There­for(', it is unnece~sarv to continue a svstem that eYidcntl'- is 11ot required at the p;osent tin10.

ThP Leader of the Opposition ann other hon. nwmbcrs opposite \Yho haYe spoken haYe prote~tcd again:-st thi::; motion being n10Y0d at this datt•. \YIH•n the Leader of the Opposi­tion \Yas Pn•niit•r hP lltovccl a situiJur rnotion in three succes:-ive !·c.1rs. one on 2nd Sep­tember and the oliH•r on 3rcl September, EO that tbero i::-~ nothing ne"\V in bringing forward a motion of ihi< kind at this >tag-c. It is claimed that an adequate opportunity is not giYen to briug forward idejs. I cio not think the, Opposition could OYer bo charged \Yith haYing· advanced an:,~ new idt'as. EYel"\' mcrrtller in this liouse must rcali~e that -chulng the prescilt sc~':,ion, in both the Address in Hepl:v debate and the debate on tlw Appropriation Bill. we had the spectacle• of thr same bundle of notes being passc<l from to member of the Opposition·- ,-ith exception of about twu hon. Illcn1b0r::;--and rchn.:",h-:- d in diff('rpnt ways. Tlu•re is ample oppo1·tnnity under the forms of this Ho us>' to discn" e _·en- Bill that conws before it. The va.rlous !3tag('s of ~ Dill giYe ample opportunit·.- for the fnllest and freest discussion. During the Address in Rcvl~- <h'hate, ·which has fust been conJ­pleted. thr ><tme bundle of notes \Yas pas,0d from hand to hand, each member of the Oppo~it~on giving it a. dif£ere11t ver3ion--

JI.Ir. KEx~;y: That is a deliberate lie.

:\Ir. SPEAKER : Order !

The PREMIER: And placing his own· conE"truction upon it.

:Jfr. SPEAKER : Order ! I ask the hon. member for Cook to withdraw his remark and .apologise:

JI.Ir. KExxY: T cannot help thinking that it is a delillerato lie.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I a,k thn hon. member to do as I l'l'quirc. l ···ould not insi:-:-t that this b(; done \\'C'l"l' iL not that sorrL~ bon. nJclnbers iu1agino thnt thc•y can u~,'~ tllo:-:e \Yards and bv Inc1elv v ithc1ruwing them close the episode. c

:\Ir. GO!liHEY ::\IORG.\1\: \Yhv does the Prc. lllJer iu::;i~t on telling lies? -

:Hr. SPEAKEH: I ask the hon. member to ,, ithJrn\Y--

~'"Lr. I{E.\'XY : The rulPs of thi, JiousL de1nand that l shall. That is the onlv reason l ~. .

:\lr. SPK'\.KER: Order~ 1Ir. }\_l·:X~Y: I obe~.T your ruling.

:\!r. SPE_-\KER: Order I a .k ihe hon. Il!Cniber to "'.Yithdra\v and apologisc-nnl·c~c:rYcdly.

:\Ir. KExKY: I have told you that I am quite prepared to do it i11 nccorrlance \Yith the ruk·. of the House. I \Yithdraw a11d apologi::e.

Jl.lr. SPEAKER: Order ! I no\Y ask the hou. 11wmber for 7\hu·illa to \Yithdrrtw and apologise.

:\lr. CODFHEY :\10RGAN: \Yhat for?

~1r. SPE_.:\ TCER: For "' \Yhy doe~ the Prcrnier insi~t 011 telling 1 "

:.\lr. ConeREY )~OHGAX: I think ,~on shoulc~ al~o i. all upon the Pre1nier to \YiThdra\V his 6tatcnlf.::--nt. lie h~ts no 1norc rig]Ji than a.11y other hon. lllC'tnber to in1pntc !lJotivc~. The PrPnJ.iPr P.hould condurt l1imsdf properly a:-' lrHtcb as anyone ebe.

:\Jr. SPEAKEH. Order~ I ad< the lion. n1cmbPr for :\lurilla to vYit]vdraw nnd ::~polo~ g1se. It will ·.aY" a lot of trouble if he does.

~.I r. GonFHEY SpeakC'r, it will 8aYe a \Yithdrav;,' and apologi::-c.

~-\.s :you :-;Ll \. J\.lr. of troubk. 1 will

J\ll·. R. M. KEG : ::..rr. SpcakN. I ri"' to a pcJint of order. Pn':nif'r l1a" lll<.ttlc ccrtu.in are offen~i~-(-~ to hon. IrlC'Hlhers on inchl-dillf., ruy,.-eH. He-charged hon. me:nbcr~ on this ;-ic:('. Jn;-~clf amonfr the ntnnbcr, \Yith n ~i11g- in the ( nun"0 of their speeches notes tbat hacl been possed ronn:J from hon. fll('mber to hon. nteatLcr for ihc purpo~r- of ar_!ruiug- thr caP-e of_ thr: Opposition on the Ad<hess in RPplY. I for one lLrd no notes, and if you look llt mY speech )OU will find that r' made no r·cfL•r­Ul> 1 to anything previonsly refcned to h:v orhcr speakers on this :;:.ide.

}Tr. GonFH2Y l\IoRG.\~: I had no nutcP-, either.

}·!r. R :'\1. KTXG: T challenge !)Jc Premier to find in my speech an~· extract frmu notP:-:.

:\Jr. SPEAKER : Order ~

l\fr. H. l\I. KrxG: The Premier has made remarks \Yhich are of1'ensiY0 to rne. ancl I a"k t}lat, you call upon hin1 to \Yithdraw them.

}Ir. TZEXXY: And avologi c. '!\Jr. GoDFREY 2'.10RG.\CI: He should apolo­

gise, too.

Hon. W. Forgan Smith.]

228 Precedence of Government [ASSK\IBLY.] Business on Thursdays.

}'.lr. SPEAKEU : Order ! Hon. members nm~t obey wy call to order. I am sure• that the Premier ''ill accc•pt the denial of the hon. n1crnbrr for Logan.

The PREl\IIElt: Yes, Mr. Speaker, accept the denial of the hon. member for Logan. I did except certain Iron. nwmLers of tlw Opposition.

A_s I said, there was an1ple opportunity on the Addrcs.J in Heply for hon. members to adY<Hlcc nc\v ideas. TJl.~ Appropriation Bill, 2'\o. 1, aim gaye tho wicle·t posoible scope for discussion. K ext \YC~'k, po,-.:sibl:v on \Yednesday. the Budg·ct will be brought do\l"ll. and a 'ull and complete clebate will be llO"iblc on it. C\'o l'l"Jtriction will be• irnp()c:;cd on anv hon. rnernber as to \vhat hl' .-d10nlcl ,-;.ay, Or on any id('as lw n1ay pro-lllnlgate. Thf're is 110 time limit on that <lclntc>. li'urt110nnorc, on tho E:.:;tinlah:' in Chief t'to same opportnnitv So far a,. (]Pbat:c is c':mccrncd there a1uple oppor-tnmty for debate under the forms of the Hou;c. and hon. memLer', if so disposed, tnll have everv opportunitY of Ycntilatin(r their idPa...;. l ~lJOl·:oonallv h~Ye no dc8ire t~ curtail the riQ·l1ts of ar~v hon. 1nombcr in t!Ji~ Uou-w ·wi{h rcganl t~ pr1Yatc nw111bors' day. If any hon. nH•mbcr ]l!Jts fon1·ard a sonncl ic!Pa that is in the interests of tho country it will rccei,·c the fullest and most complete consideration bv the GoYernrnent.

JUr. I\::E~XY: Isn't n1~~ ~;1otion ~ound? Tl:c PRE:'v!IEH: l:nforlimateh-, some hon.

l11Cllll)('l' . .:; arc singnl:Ll'l:v han·cn ·of ic1oa8. ~lr. ( 'o;STELLO: )~ ou arc rcfc·rrino· to vour

on n parLy, I snppos'~~? 0

•

Th0_ Pl\E~,aER:. This is a charge which cannot u( Ltid agaln.·t the GoYPl'lllllCllt. If fton. lllPlll bers OppO':,itc ha 'et; llO 110"\Y icl_eas SHJ'C'ly ; Lo Gon::nuucnt c.1nnot be blamed for tlut ~ It has been Sllggestod that this nlotloll was hrougl1t on to preYent discu~sion on the n1otion v,-}Jich is nov;- on tho bnsine:-s­shcct, ancl tlw amendment rnoyecJ !Jy the hon. n1e1nb('r for Ox:ley n1akes provision that 1hat lllotion shall be .discuc-ed. That qul'.;;tiou c~1 n be a.rr1ply (libcussecl on the Budget, because it deals vvith a 1nattPr IYhich is ah·cady proYidecl for in that Bndget. As I announced about a fortnight ago the Bndgct ptoYides for a rednction in int0rcst {'lmqle-...; ln::tclc b:v the GoYCl'Illncnt. not onlv to h.)lTO\Yers from iJJC AgTicnli-nral Bflnl~. but a!;.;o in respect of 1vorkcrs' dwellings. '

Mr. KEc-;c-;y: '\fl'. Speaker, on a point of ordct--

}'.Ir. SPEAKER: Ord,,r ~

:\lr. KEXXY: Is thr Premier m order in .dlscu~ inp: a. motion that is on the busines.'3-sheet'! You pnlkcl n1c up foe doing ~o.

:;\Ir. SPE--::\I{EH: Tho hon. n101nbcr rnav safe!:,· lean, tho preserYation of order to m~. The J?rPlniPr Is end ea' curing to give 1·casons why 1t is not nec0~•sary to discu~'3 it.

01 .·o~tno"' idnmEns: Ah 1

::',Jr. SPEAKER: Order! The Premier will not ],c allowed anv more liberties than any otlwr l1on. rncmbe~~.

The PRE'\1TER: 1 haYe no desire to take an_,~ n1orc liberties than anv other hon. mern­ber. I think I know the Standing- Orders better_ than n1ost hon. n1embers, and I kno\v that I _a1n no~ transgr_cssing the Standing Orders 1n rnak1ng ITIPntlon of the matter to W~lich I tun refe~rring. I an1 dealing now \nth the amPnrlment rrwYed bv the hon. member for Oxlcy. It prm·ides that my

[lion. TV. Forgan Smith.

n1otion shall not operate until a rr1otion now on the business·,hl'et has be~n moYod. I am cndeaYouriug to point out why the auwud~ mont shonld not be supported by hem. rnem· bcrs. J\Jy rea:-;on is that son1e tin1e ago, on behalf of the Govcrnnwnt, I announced that "\\T propose to rC'ducc certain interest charge::< by 1 per cent. The Government Jtayo alrc:td~· done all, and more than all, that is pro1·idcd for in the motion. There· fore. it ,,~onld Le rncrclv a wa:-tc of tirne to discus~ it. It "·ill be ·Ill"OYided for in the Budget. rrhat is an adequate reason for nlOYing th0 re"olution that I }JaYC placed before thP 1--fou'if-'. anc1 i also an an1ple reason whY tho · amendment should be rcjert0rl. ~ln eonclu-.ion. I repe,.t that if anv hon. n1nrnber of this I-Iouse has ideas thtlt [ll'O \YOrth rJUiting forv anl in the_ pUl>lic intcn_~:-tt. tho-.o ideas will alv.-ay_., l'f'Cl'lYe the fullest con>ideration hy ihc GoYcrnnlPnt.

Mr. GODFREY ::\IOHGAN (Jiu.r£1/a) fl1.30 run.]: Notwithsta'lding the fact that the Premier ha·" been described as one of the ten principal statcemen in the \Yorld, we havo listened to.da~: to ono of the most nndif!niried ancl paltr_;~· speC'che':) eYel' rn.:tde bv am· member of this Ilousc. First o~ all,· the hen. gPntlcrnan in:;;ulted CYery hon. member on this side of the House. Tlw hon. gentleman does that rctwat<•dly. ri'hf'l'(' are rncnJbCl'S Oll this ~~(lf~ who l)OS5'0SS just a-3 nnlCh brain~ as the PrPrrlier----

Gon:HX}lE:\T MEc.BERS: \Yho arc they?

:\fr. Sl'EA KER : Order ! I '"k the hon. rnetubcr to deal \Yith the an1enchnont.

:\Ir. GODICREY i110ltGA2\: I v.ant tho Pre111ier to know "\Yhat vvc think--

The PHDITEH: I don't \\Ol'l"\' what you thillk.

:\lr. GODFREY 1\IORGAN: And I don't care "\Yhat you think.

:\[r. SPE \KER: Order! The hon: mem· ber v:ill b:' given one 11\orc opportunity to dcnl "\Yith the arncndrncnt. ·

'\Ir. GODJCREY l'IIOHG_\.N: Why does the Promic,· not do tho correct thing, if he is n'ali~Y sincere in his remarks, and abolish priYate rnernbcrs' day for al1 tirno? \Ye kno\Y that the opportunity to di~russ irnport­ant questions 011 such a day is a privilege enjoYI'd not only in this Parliament but also in the Mothl'r of Parliaments. The 1 'rPmicr knows, despite \Ylmt he says, that n1a11Y 1naUers canuot be discussed in the deba~tes on the c'l.ddress in Rep'y. the FiJJancial Sta,tPnlcnt, and in other debates, and that no opportunity is given on those occasio11s to ascertain clcarlv tho vie,vs and opinions of hon. Inerubcr::~ ~on a particular qne,tirm. The Premier has ctated that the h011. member for Cook could giYe all details incidental to hi,, proposed motion on other occasions, bnt the hon. gentlernan kno\YS perfectly \Yell that, unl0ss on privab~ n1en1-bcrs' day, "\Ye \vould haYe no opportunity of sccnring a divi::)ion, to test the fec1ing of hon. members, on the question of the desira· bilit!· ot· othenYise of reducing- the interest on loans to farmers and olhen. The real reason for the l'remier's motion is that the hon. gcntlernan want" to burke discussion bv the hon. me m her for CoDk and other h;n. members on this 'ide of the Honso in order that ho mav save the faces of many countrv rPlH'f'seut~tivc,-3 on the Governill('nt side. ~Thl)- hon. gent!cman does not desire that the;; should be called upon to vote

Precedence of Government [19 SEPTEMBER.] Business on Thursdays. 229

against a reduction of interest to farmers .and others. Tho hon. gentleman is afraid of a vote. \Ye know perfectly well that such mattms as have been mentioned can bo referred to in the debates he specified, but ihev arc onlv some of the hundred and one diff.crent ::;.uVlccts that are discu~."led, and no opportunity is given to test the feelings of the HonA1 on such an important question as that on \Yhich notice of motion has been given b:· the hon. member for Cook. "\ro the Gon'rlnncnt n1C1nbcrs "\vho represent counh·, const itucncics ganw to see that tho countr\~ people get a fair spin the sarnc a-1 ot!H•ro '!

Mr. FoLEY: You look aflc,· youre.olf and lea ,~o us a] one.

:VIr. GODFRF.Y 1110RGc\N: I ean look after nwsclf much bcttn than the hem. "member 'eau.

J\Tr. S l'EAKER: Orclo,· !

Mr. GODFREY M ORGAN: It does not :tnat.tcr '.\ ho the rnc1nher is; his pr]yjlcgcs ate curtaiiocl by the motion now being dis­cus~ecl. EYcrv hon. 1nPn1ber vvho Yotc·s in fayour of thi~ rnotion is Yoting dgainst a right aucl priYilcgc of a rnen1ber of Par:ia­mont.

The SECRl~TARY FOR PrBuc L.\XDS : You ga1·e us the worst spin that an Opposition eYer had in Queensland.

11Ir. GODFREY MORGAX: No. The J\Ioore Gon,·nment did restrict the Opposi­tion to ::-orne cxcnt. bnt that Government delinih'l~- allowed private members several opportunilies of bringing forward resolu­tions for discu~~ion on priYatc lllC'nibers' dav. On the other hand. the Premiel' pro­po~es to abolish private merubcr"' day with­<)Ut gi,·ing an opportunity even for dis­cu"sing the nul tter in respect of which notice of rnotion has been giver1. The Moorc Government allmvcd a certain num­ber of days for priYato n1ernbcrs' businesp, Simply because the Premier wanted to have a holiday at the [WO]Jlc' s e'<pcnse is no r0oson wlF.- Parliament sbonld not have been calle~l together earlier. Surely the Deputy Premier was 'apable of conducting the business of this House during the few weeks the. Premier iYould ha Ye boon absent? I' the Premier the only pebble on the beach ·1 Is he the onlv membn· of the GoYcrnment \vho possesses brain". and abilit0-3UHicicnt to conduct and control the business of this House'! Evidently hon. m em be'" vppo~ite were afraid to meet Parliament, for they thought they would be devoid of sufficient brains without the presence of the l'r<>mier. lion. members of the Opposition were prepared to come to this House and do their work, but becmise the Pn'mier was awav on a holidaY thov could not do it. :(Go~·ernnwnt inter,:uption.)

Mr. SPEAKER: Order I

lllr. GODFREY J\IORGAN: One of the reasons whv the Premier desires to e1irn­inate THivate 1110n1bcrs' day lir~s in the fact that. Pctrliamcnt met later t!mn usual and he is desirous that we should get through the business hcfore Christmas if possible. I am not concerned whether we do or not. I do not mind if the Premier brings us back after Christmas, for wo haYo work to do and we are under a duty to do it. (Govern­ment interruption.)

Mr. SPEAKER: Order !

Mr. GODFREY MORGA:i\': This Parlia­ment should not have to sit to suit the convenience of the Pren1icr or .any other individual. So far as you arf:) concPrned, J\1r. Speaker, the Premier is only an ordinary member in this House. He is an ordinary indi,-idnal so far as the people of Queens­l;and ,are cqncerncd, notwithstanding the high and important position which he occu­pie :l. Hon. rnernbers ought to meet jn this I-Iouso and carr:/ ont their duties irrespec­tiYc of vvhethcr the Prcn1ler is .a:way or not. \Vo haYc [Jrivilcges, and I think we should protect tl-:osc privileges. rrhis rnotion will be a t1vo-cJgcd SIYord, because after next P 1cction there will be another G-oyernment. (Government interruption.) The Federal election f-igllres arc indicatiYe of a change. The l'remier 'vill L-LYll ereatecl a precedent, by doing sotrwthing tlHlt lw::;- never been done before in this :Padian1ent, or vorha.ps in any other Parliament in the world­abolishing private members' day l}cfore an Op[lortnnity has been given for the con­sideration of one resolution of \Vhich notice has bef'n giYCll. The Preruicr cannot deny that assertion, nor justify himself by stating that the :'vlom·c Gm·crnmcnt did certain thing':). The :\'Ioorc GoYcrnrncnt did not :tnove a similar n1otion until soYeral \Yeeks had elapsc'd and when c\·ory opportunity had been afforded private members of taking ,:dvaniavc of this privileg·c. If they did not desire to do so it \Vas not the fault of the Govel'llllWnL J\'Iembcrs of this Opposition have ::LhYays taken aUvantage of the privil­l(~ge C'Onfcrred on thern Uy privah_, members' day and should not be de[Jrivcd of it. The Premier is cvitlcntlv <tfr:cid of tho resolution of which notice 1;as been giYen and the consequences of its discus~ion, and he does not wjsh to he.,yr~ a di,~ision on it becauso it ·would con1promi.c;e country n1ernbcrs on the Government side.

Mr. KEXJ'\Y (Cool,) [1L40 a.m.]: I am surprieed ,,t the atguments of the Premier as to why this amendment shou!J not be accepted. I 1·cgret I had to trangrcss the rules of the Hm1se in order to protect mysel£ fronr the hon. gout1ernan's rc1nark in regard to pnpers being lwndcd round. I can rnakc rny O\Vll speech in my own way. I cann~t do better th>Ln qnoto the I'rcmier's own connnents when he suprwrted an an1endrnent similar to the one >vhich has been moYed b_,. tho hon. meml:)er for Oxley. At page 599 of " Hansard " of 1931, he is reported .a9 saying-

" It has been stated by the Deputy l'temier that hon. members are always given au opportunjty during the session to discu" the matters alreadv on the bnsine'.s-shc· .. t. That is true;· but the Minister cannot quote any precedent for priYat.e rr1r:rnbors'- busine~s being cut out entirelv after onlv two afternoons haYe been devoted to !t. The quotation by the hon. member for \Vide Bay indicates that in the year to which he refers it was not until late in October that a. sirriilar rnotion was n1oYecL In any event, to put fonYard a Cf1'30 like tl1at is like saying that, if one n1an is guilty of com­n1on assault, GoYern1nent Jnembers are entitled to commit murder."

Con! cl anything ho more definite than that? \V e are only asking for the right of dis­cussing the motion on this business-sheet for one day, yet \VC ate denied it l

foi1·. Kenny.]

230 Precedence of Government [ASSE:J1BLY.] Business on Thursdays.

I quote now the remuks of the Secretary for Public Instruction, when speaking oil the sarrw arnendmcnt on the same day-

" I. ask you, JY1r. Speakcr1

to say dor11ntel:v whether; during the debates this se:-5sion, any hon. member can refer to anv rnatter 1.Yhich is on the busine~"':,s­shoct ·to be debated. You haY-;, ruled on nurncrous occasions thJ..t that is uot pobible; and that is the rollson why we arc asking the Secretary for Public ln­~truction no\v to give us an cxtl'a dav to rlispo"' of the matter listed for priYate lllClnLcr;:'J' day.''

-S::..-ou ha,-p ruled in the san1c '''av this n1orniug. ~Ir. Speaker, and vonr rnlir~o· will ~tan d. l al wa \·s dC'sirc to obey youe r~ling, <uJd the: cfrcc:t iJJcreforc is that lwn. lllcrnLcrs <-ll'l' dcLnrrcd frorn di::;cussittg this qn.· ·tion dtn·ing t.hi~ .-;es~ion.

::\Tr. SPE"\KKR: Order~ Tl1~ hon. mem­ber can OYC'l'COlllC his dlfficultv Lv \vithdra\V* ing the 111otior. · ~

::\ir. KK'\::\Y: I hoYe no d~'i,·e to \Yith­draw th1' HJotion. It is i11 the interests of the people of Qun'll'::laud. The Prcrnit'r has rcf('rrcd to-da\- to action that if.; to Le taken by the lioYN;irl!Cl"f. lmt the a~tion he ha:' referred to cloc•s not fit in with t!1c rnotion at all. lt takP< dl'cet 0•1 th" bt .] a nnary of JH xt year·, aud therefore doe:-- not corne within the ambit of tho motion, "hi eh refers to the pruent time. Its passage is urgently IJcceo.;~ar.v Hl the 1nicrcst.'i of thio.; State for the sake of those people who arc being pr•nnli~cd.

ThP Jlreinier states tl1at w.c 'an discuss t.his qnc~tion duriug the debates on tho Esb­matc,. \Yell, J\lr. Speaker, we shall haYe

rnany questions to di~cuss during thosn Ill:v mYll elcetorate is one of the

largest in QueeH..,lancl, and cornprises a. bra11d1 of cYcry industry~ operatiug in the StatP. Que~tious pertaining to tho~e indus­tries and the effr•ct of Uovcrumcnt legisla­tion Oil thcrn. in addition to its effect on the i11dividnal. ·will ari,.c, a11d therefore i. shall h" .1blc to discus:, the Yital question­the suLjert-InnttE'r of rnv rnotion-onlv bv t.hc ~·~"rific:C of some• other (udustr,,· or pa~·t 0£ n1y p]ectorrrte. \Ylwn I look at the ruling giYcn b.·.- pr~ viou...; Speakers and referred to by ~vou, ~.Ir. Speaker, I am reminded that I shall be dclmrred from dist:u ..... sing this question the11. You, l'.h. Speaker, tell nw i hat l can oYer­come n1v difficulty ln \Vithclrawincr mv nJotion {nnn tlH• b~u;in(_~::-~.c:JH'f't, but t havO .a l'P~pcm~ibility to ruy clectoratl'. and I haYP a n':.;;ponsibilit7 to Qneensla11cl as an intelli­gent metnbN of this lious<'. (Government laughter.)

The Premier has said that no new ideas art· brought fon\ nrd bv Hlenl1JC'l'S of the Oppns:tion. Thi~. evidor~tly. is a nev", idea, an idea that agitates the Pr('rnier ~o ver:· n1uch t!J;ti lJe -i::: e:---JclPaYoln·ing to stifle dis­cu,Qion therPOll. He objected when in the Oppo-ition that two day,; W<'rt' not sufficient for thP discn- ·,ion of the business of private nwmbers. Dcs1•it" his statenwnt that this is not a l1('W idea, the Pren1ier is acting on rny adYicc-only in a small way, I will admit. but sufficir•ntly to shmi· the Yital imparlance of the idut. \Yhen •ve have the Premier di~<·ns~ing n, question liko that. I can do no better than quote his own words. Xo doubt the Premier will be tempted to gag this motion throngh. lmt I would like to r<'mind him of "hat he had to say iu reference

[Mr. Kenny.

to dealing 1vith a certain arnondmcnt; "After an amendment like that is moved, it is t·eferred to the Deputy Premier to hint that he \Yill a11ply the ' gag,' by saying. in <•!fed, '\Ye do llot intend to allow tlte Oppo­sition to discuss any matters that they care to initiate.' "

l am hoping the Premier will remcmbee tho:·)U rcn1arks, because eYell tho Oppos1bon to-day recognise the vital neccs ity of ~he unH'nchuent being en rricd and tlw n1obon f'tanding in IHY lHUlle bcillg discus~ecl. If the umcncln1cnt be carried we f'hall have an opportunity of doing SE'l'Yicc to ou1· _State, tu our dcdoratcs, a11d to the jndustnes \Ye

l'l'lW;,:;;cnt. The Pretnicr f'hould throw his JJJind back to the tiu1e vdH'n he \vas a rnember of the OplJo:-)ition and declared that rjghts were being filched fron1 his party, although n woiion l1acl Lecn nnclPr discus~iou for t.1vo da: s. \Ye han• not had an opportunity of di~cn:-3sing this n10t.ion for one day. \\~hat lnl::-:in, 'd is thPl'( of such vital irnportancc

n1otion had to be rrioved 110\V? The could llJOYf' io-n10lTOW 1norning that

ihe Iiousc sit ou J?ridan:; for the rcrnainder of the ·;;io11, LuHl vv~" on this wonld 01l]l}lOrt that llJOiioiJ in order that busi-t:C'" of this Slate conld be clonp nncl the iPtet·c,b of the people protPctcd. \Ye could then have an opportunity of discu~:-.ing· ITIY motion and showing the JWOple of Quccns­latlll exactlv v here the Cmcrnrueut stand ou the que~bon. \Ye desire to kuo\Y dofi~ nitrlv '"·hero nJelnbL'l'S of the Govcrn1ncnt .Part\.· do stand. \.Y c aro 11ot concerned \vith l1ow ·cabinet will whip up Gm·ernmcnt mem­bct·s, bnt the pPoplc in the country should know exactly tlJC opiHlons of GoYt'rnment membcrs-th:d is, if thP·: have individual opiuions. If discussion be stifl(•d no»· in the manner suggested thpre will be no further opportunity for anothPr twelYe months. It will make a difference to the people to the extent of the amount of the penalty for t\reh·c 111onths. Jf the P1-;1nier is prepared to sacrifice these people for twelve months­t•ot six months. as he ,,aid-then the respon-sibilitv on him. and the countrv mem-bers o.f party. I appeal to those member& of tlw Goycrr:1nPnt Party 1vho represent eountrv electoratPs at least to stnnd up to their opiDions and SU!'lJOrt the Opposition in their demand that this motion be dts­cus;-;eJ. for at least one day.

Mr. GLEDSO::-,r (Ipswich) [11.48 a.m.]: AftPr listening to the tirade from hon. members oppositP, I am prompted to quote ,, little further from the s;oeechcs that were dPliwrcd in 1931 during a similar debate. Speaking in thls 1-.fouse on 2nd Se11tcrnbor, 1931. the hon. nwmbr>r for Cook, who then sat in GoYcrrnneut, sn id~

"Hon. members opposite fill the pages of ' I-1ansard' 1vith propaganda which theY hope ,,·ill as.oic•t them to fight the -con.1in0"' Plcctions. Thev do not oft\ ___ 'r a single b ronstructive sugg-estion, .und it would bo better if the House proceeded to real business instead of allm,·ing the· time to be wasted."

J\Ir. EDWARDS (Xanango) [11.49 a.m.]: I hope the Premier will be broad-minded onoug·h to accept the amendment. and therobv allow the motion standing in the name "of the hon. member for Cook to bn discussed. The Premier has already stated that the interest rates charged by the Agri­cultural Bank will be reduced by 1 per cenL

Precedence of Government [19 SEPTEMBER.] Business on Thursdays. 231

as from 1st January, 1935, llllt interest rates are not the onlv matter eo ttainod in the 1notion standing, in the natne of the hon. membN for Cook. The Agricultural Dank trar1sacts it;-3 business on various bases.

:VIr. SPEAKER: Order! The Lon. mem­ber will not be in order in discussing tlwt matter.

Mr. EDIYARDS: The Premier has argued that the rnaltcr ha:; alrcndy bcL'll dealt vvith, and I uru cndeaxouring to point out that, onl~, one }IJl'ticular colltained in the rr1otion has been dcult "\Vith. Surely, I arn in order in st<1ting that the Prern·:cr's r~:tnark is not correct 1 :\luch of the busine ,~ already con­ducted by the Agricultural Da11k has becu carried out 011 a. 6 per cent. bai3is, and \VO

arc una warP IYhethc!' the proposed rPduction in int.ure~t ratr s is to be mcuh~ applict!ble to the• \:ltuk of the busine".-; tl~ansar·Ll't.l by the l>a,.L. luerest rates have lwen reduced by otlH•r financial ini3t.ltutions as a Jnt:a5tue of rPliel tu the snffcring conlnlunity. It is highi_; iw)lortant that we should be allmYed an OlJportuuity to cli~ ;u:Js the n1otion stand~ ing iu tl10 nanu_~ of the hon. Inernber for Cook, nnd with that object in view I trust that Premier wilJ see his wav clear to ac-cept a1neudmont. ~

Mr. BELL (Stculliy) [11.52 run.]: I rise to Oflpo:::o the ruutiou 110w bL'fore the Honsc. Before 1 \\ ,:s elected to this C'lu_u11 her I ~.,as told that I \vonld meet with many surpricos here, and I candidlv admit that l have met with t>'.O t.~is 11101~ning. Tho fir.:-;t ];-; the 111oticn JDOYPd Ly the Prernier. JJetore l \VIl' cie ·tul to l'arliamu1t I hold the Yiel\ that priYate nw1nbor,,' day 11rovided 1nmuLcr8 with an opportunity of initiating a discnssion upon a subject-matter which would be of an undoubted advantage not merely to my O\Yn electorate but to tho who:c of Queensland. I mny not possess the sarnc oratorical abilit~- as son1e hon. mcn1~ bers in this HoLISe, ·but I did enter this Chamber in a spirit of co-operation with a -desire to rnake suggestions for the a<:;.::)istanco of the Go .. ernment and for the bcnl'iit uf th0 countrv as a \Yholc. I nn1 well a \Hlre that n1m1y~ ~nggcstions that e1:nanato frorn tho Opprhition arc not acceptable to the GoYcnuucnt in povYer. Ilowevcr, our sug­gestions arc of a constructiyo nature, and rnav bo of some use to them. The Premier stated during his speech that hon. members would lw,-e an ample opportunity during tho debate on tho Financial Statement to ~iscuss many subjects. The only weakness In thnt contentiO!l is that tho Government can approYe or ignore any suggestion from this side of the House, but when a motion is initiated by & private rne1nbcr, a11cl a Yoto is taken and a diYision called, hon. members mu .t declare themsehes one way or the other.

The socoml matter in which I have been surprised, and I regret having to refer to it, is the way in which the Premier attributed ceria in condnct to nwmbo1·s of tho Opposi­tion. I an1 sure tha.t ''Then the hon. gentle~ rnan n•flp~~t.s he will agree with me that it was unworthy of a gentleman holding such a. high position. . I can only . hopo that it Bhpped out llllWlttiugly. I sincerely trust that the hon. gentleman will not again cast such a slur on the 0[1)10sition. I can for ono refute the statement as not being correct.

The> I'RE)JIEH : I said, with about two exceptions.

l'ir. R. :\I. KING (£oga11) [11.55 a.m.]: I de:'iiro to 1nakc a final appeal to the Premier to give further considcr>ttion to this ques­tion. \Yhat doe', tlH' Opposition's request n1oan? It 1neans pract.ical1y ouly i wo hours' discus.sion ln the \vholc ;],_ssion. 'l'hat is all \VC are asking for. \Yhon the Prmnicr v....-as in opposition he said that we should not be able to fmd a precedent whore less than two days ,,-·ere allo\ved to discu~d rnoUons moved by pl'iYate n1embcrs. lien~ we arc not allowed PYCn ono d:w! \Ve aro establishing another precedent of 11 ch:uactcr which the Pretuicr on a pre\-ious occasion :-;rrongly oppo:wd. ancl \Yonlc1 D~ain oppose if he W£'1'8 . ~jtti.ng on tbis sicl~~ of the :House'. I lH'PVIOusl:- con~ demrwd tl1e practice of ostablishin5 pre­cedent" \Yhich are unfair and. n:Hca~oaa.hle. This Jll'PCedt'nt ~cts up tbo right of a GoYern~ 1nent to prohibit ab:-)o1utPly a.ny di~t nssion of llriYato ntctnbc•rs' bu~,i11c ~s. That _is a priYlh•ge \\ hicl1 huB cxi~tl·d ~ll ihis 1-lousc for uut.ny c·t_Ld':'i, and one wh1eh \Ill\' do 110t de~'il'l' tO lOse. \Yben a prer:edcnt is c~tab­bshed bv 011e GoYernmciH no ono can blan1e a u future Govenn11Pnt fol' follo'''ing it. This Hous" should lw carcfnl in "tab-

pl·c-·cdcnts, b:>eause precedents 011 bv futnrc Govt:rlnneuts, and

one i~ daniProu~. I appeal to tbc Pn'Inier to alLow 1he discu :;;ion to take placP. There

one rnotio11 011 the buslncs.s-shcet. will probalJly start at 11 o'clock

the JIJornin_w; and cease ni 1 o'cloek in the afternoon. That would overcome the bitter fcPling prevailing at the. pre>ent time and 12 ivc- <L go()d deal of satlsfactlon, not only to Opposition members but to Government IllC'lnbu·s as ·well.

:\Ir. J. G. BAYLEY (Tl'!!"'nun) [11.58 a.m. J : If wo con ,idcr the speeches m ado by the nH'tllbC'l'S of the GoYern1nent when they v;,rcr0 in oppo::-itiou and cmuparc- the111 wit.h the spce~hes made b· hon. members to-day rt will b0 fonnd that t}w whole House is unani­Dlons in its jndg1nent as to depriving hon. HlCrnbcrs of t.ho 011110rtunity to bring for­ward ma.ttcrs which they regard as import­ant. Thcr£'forr, we as niernl}et·s of this l-[ouse should cudeavour to cuTivo at so1ne arrungctnLut \vhcrc:by private 1110n1bcrs' clay is retained. The position is. anJ must alwav- be, that the GO\-ernmcut are the best jncl!£c of ,,-hat additiona.l time is needed for tho calT" ing out of GoYcrntncnt business. ~\1 uvb tronblc has arisen because too rnuch tin10 has been given to private n1en1bers. I nnclcrotand thCLt under the Sessional Order rn·i \ate rncn1 hers' busine~s C"ln be di'3cussed in tho forenoon of each Thnrsday. Gm-crn­mcnts hrrYe decided, and wisely so, that after a cQrtain period no rnoro time should be Ppcnt in the di.scussion of private llH'lnbers~ lmsiness. V\hen the Leader of the Opp0sition "." s Leader of the Government he so dccitlocl and so did aJl Leaders of Gov-ernments iH the past. The Sessional Order could be r.ltc'recl so that private rncmbers' business could come on every third Thm·bday. It m a.·,- bo that each Govornm~nt will sco its wa~' clear to prr-en-e that day for private mom bcrs' business. It is far better that tho private member should have the third Thursday thro11ghout the entire. se'"sion than ostensibly to have each Thursday at his disposal only to find a few \ved:s after the commencement of the see,ion that he has been depriv-ed of tho privilege altogether. I wonld suggest. that the Standing Orders Committee, which is composed of hon. mem­bers from both sides, should be called

Mr. Bayley.]

232 Precedence of Government, Etc. [ASSE11BLY.] Primary Produoers'. Etc., Bill.

together to sec if some modus Yivcndi can­not bo arrived at whereby this privilege 'Yill be retained for private members. l'i'e all want it. l'\o one could have been more ardent in the advocacv of his claims than tlw Premier himself, and I think it will be apparent that all hon. members desire the pri\·ato mctnbers' da!~ to continu<'. I sug­guest that the Standing Orders be amended.

The PnD!lER: 'l'hero is something to be said for that.

l\lr .. J. G. BL\YLEY: vYo conld reduce the number of days to what the House couider.; to br an irroc1uciblo mini1nun1. T!Jorc­aftt:r it could he an unvvritten la\v that 110

GoYL'rnuicnt could d2priyc an~ hon. 1ne1n­bcr of l1i:::; privjlt go in this connection.

::Ylr. GouFHEY MOHGA:-<: \Yhv sl1ould the Go,·cJ·nnicnt dclHiYf' n1cn1befs of their rights? \\'c have rjghts.

Mr. J. C. DAYLEY: Of courcc. 'n' ha.ve rights.

Mr. GomnEY NloRG\:-;: We should insist upon them.

:Ylr. J. G. B.\ Y LEY: But when the hon. n1ernbcr \Ytl~ n rnornber of tho Government ho and his fel!mv members decided that no fnnhcr time 'hould be given for the discus­siou of pri--rate nrorubcrs' bLlsiness.

::\Ir. GoDFREY l'lioHGAX: Only after scycral clays.

::Yh. J. G. BA YLEY: Of course. So that the prcscpt Pn'rnior and the past Prcn1ier arc botl_t ~irnH'f:-1 in this J'C'::pcct, it being Dnly a quPstJon of d0grec between tltc'm.

I luwe no desire to deprive hon. members of their privileges; in het, I would go farther and suggc ',t that this lloll'O adopt the practice followed in other HousE.'" of Pal'li.arnPnt 1vhero 011 each day of ::;itting, when the question is put from the Chair, '· 'I'hat the House do now adjourn," hon. m ern ben; have the pri \·il0go of speaking to the molten. To my mind that is an excel­lent idea, bcrausc 1Yh(~n :1n ho11. member has some good point to bring forward that he .does not think is sufficiently important to mtroduco on the debate on the Address in Reply or on Supply, he would have an opportunity of doing so. 'fhe Standing Orders Committee might also take that matter into consideration to sec whether provision could not be made where'w on the question "That the House clo" now adjourn " being put from the Chair, hon. members havo ihe right of addressing them­selves to tlw Chctir for a few minutes.

Question-" That the words proposed to be added (Jir. Ximmo's amendm,nt) bo so added "-put; and the House divided:-

AYES, 24.

:i\'Ir. Barnes Doyley Bel! Br"nd Clayton Co8tel!o Daniel Deacon Edwards Fad den Kenny King, R. M. Maxwel!

[Jh. Bayley.

Mr. Moore Morgan Nicl<lin Ilu':·')ell Sparkes Swayne Tozer '\Valkcr Wicnholt

Tellers: Maher Nin1mo

NOES, 28.

Mr. Barber Brassington Bruce Bulcoek Conroy Cooper

Mr. Hynes Keogh

Copley, P. K. Copley, W. J. Dash Foley Funnell Gledson Hanlon Hanson Hayes

PAIRS.

King, W. T. Larcombe L!ewelyn Mul!an ()'1\ede Pease Smith Waters Williams

Tellers: Gair Taylor, G. C.

AYES. NOES. Mr. Sizer Mr. Wel!ington

Taylor, C. Coliins Plunkett Bedford Peterson Stopford

Resoh-ed in the negative. Qur,tion-" That the rccdution (2~1r.

~\'mith'::i motion) be agreed to "-put; and the House clivic1oc1 :-

Mr. Barber Brassington Bruce Dui cock Conro:: Cooper Copley, P. Dash Folcy Funnell Gair Gledson Hanlon IIan::;on Hynes

:\Ir. Barnes Bayley Bell Brand Clayton Costello Daniel Deacon Edwards Fad den KennY King, R. M. l\1aher

AYES.

Mr. Wellington Collins Bedford Stop ford

AYES_, 28.

Mr. ICeogh King, w. T. L;-ucon1be Llewelyn l\Iullan O'Keefe

K. Pease Smith Taylor, G. C. Waters \\Tilliams

Tellers: Copley, w. Ha yes

l\QES, 24. l\Ir. i\Iaxwell

l\Ioore 1\{orgar:. Nimmo Russell Swayne Tozer Walker \\'i'"'nh'llt

TrUcts: Nicklin Sparkes

PArRS. NOES.

l\Tr. Sir,er Taylor, C. Plunl\.ctt Peter· :m

Resoh·cd in the affirmative.

J.

PRr\L-'I.RY PRODUCJmS' CO-OPERA-TIVE ASSOUATIO:\S \CTS A::\IEND­ME~T BILL.

IxrTL\TTO" r:-. Cmr;nrTTEE. (Jir. Han"an, Jiuranda, in the clwi1'.)

The SECRETARY FOE AGRICULTURE (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) [12.12 p.m.]: I Il1QYC-

" That is is desirable that a Bill be in trod uccd to amend ' The Primary Pro­dncers' Co-operatlYc A:-;::;ocintions Act:=-:, 1923 to 1926,' in certa,in particulars."

Two principles are im-olved in this Bill. Thf' f\rst is the matter of co-operatiVe organisations, a.nd the second is a n1attcr affecting dairy companies; To deal ,,-,th them in the Ol'der in 'vh1ch they occur m the Bill, it is necessary to state in respect of

Primary Producers', Etc., [19 SEPTEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 233

tho first that at the inc0ption of pooling in Qucemland it was not anticipated that the diversion of supplies fron1 co-operative as~odations or the prevention of co-opel·ative associations frmn getting supplies \vould have any grayc effect on thern, b.Y reason of t_ho fact that the la\Y required that the supplies shonlcl go to the pool. At the prcoent time, howcYC'r, we 1ind that ·where a comrnochty 1s pooh~d tl1at it is incurnbont under the law to sc·ncl all of that commodit:- to the pool. For in.;;innce ·wheat lllUSt go to the 1.vhEat pool, 111aizc to tho rnaizc pool, pranuts to the peanut pool. As every con1tuochty rnust be eent to its own llool, it is quite obYiou'3 that tho:3o people in a particular industty vvl10 may df'~irc to found a co-operative associatinn 1nill for the particnlar con1n1oJity, e.g., a flour 1nill, rnaize milL p;luco:;:e rnill, or peanut plant, caunot register under tt1e Prin1ur.~- Producers' Co-operative .. Associa­tions Acts because tlJOee Acts provide fnr direct SU}lnliC's as h·orn the producers. \\·c thus have~ the paradox, inYoluntarily, of voluntar~- as;;;ocintions not bei11g able to be bound or rr·:ri;-;tererl bccau~c a preYious law interYC'lles and deflects the product to another source. I do l!Ot think that tl1at was eYE:r the intPHtion of the men interested in -co-operation or in t.hc pooling systen1 as it exist•· in Quc-nsland to-day. This matter ..can1e to a heacl \'-·hen a vcr:· large body of people C'~ldcaYonrecl to becorrw registered under the Prilnar ·/ Prorluc0r"' Co-oncratiYe A~sociaiions .:\et~. a flour Inill \Yhirh, 1: under­stand. \\as to llc situat(•d at rroowomnba. Be1icYing in co-op{~rat!on-T b~~lievc that every ITH'lnlH'l' in this Honsc bclieYcs in the practic~} of co·o}lerntion-] gasL very can~­fnl rttiention to the matter of the registra­tion of the proposed 118\\. organisation. I found that it \YL' incapable of being regis­tercel hccamc it,. euppliers could not suppl.-: to it. anrl nndcl' the law had to RUppl} to the ·wheat Hmud. _\i this shLge a rleacl-end \vas reached.

J\Ir. ::'.IooRE: How did tho \Varwick Far­mers' 1Iill get on?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICuLTURE: It does not come into the picture in this regard. I thought that po"ibl.v the pro­eeduro adopted by that mill fumislwd a solu­tion, but I \YUS informed that it is not a co-opoYatiYc mill. It uses the word "eo­operati,·c," Lut it is not o1igihJe for rcgis­tratioE under the Primary ProducPrs' Co-op­eratiYe Associations .l~_ctf'. \Yhen I came to inquire into the matter I found that the pro­posed now organjsation could not be regis­tered under the Pl'lmary Prodnccr8' Co-op­erativ<' Associations Acts. a]l(l that it could be registered only under the Companies Act. For reasons that I ncecl not discuss at this junctul'e, it was not favourably dispo-ed tO\Yards rcglstration under the Con111anics Act. A subsequent deputation \Yaitcd on me and told me that the\- had all the machinery ready-not the mill machinery, but the moral machinerv. if one mav use that term-for the estah.lishment of a· flonrmill. 'Thev also informed me that t!Jev could mOYO no fur­ther until tlco organisation was registered. Tbcv asked me to register it, but I refused to 1:ep:ister it at that juncture, because the Act did not give me po\\ er to do so. Had l registered it there is no .doubt that the regis­tration \YOtJld haYe been subject to a certain challenge that might have been succeccsful. Quite obYioush- ono cannot allow people's zeal and enthusiasm to run away with their judgment and ignore the legal requirements

of th<> State. A later deputation met me and asked if I would regard the suppliers to a pool as being Sll}Jpliers direct io a co-op­cratiYe association. :Rlt.hcr one of tvvo things lwcl to be done-either the pool board had to bP set on ono side so that t.ht..: growers coulcl sunply direct to the co-operative asso­ciation, or the pool board had to be regar·ded as a11. integral part. of the co-opcratiYe orga­ni~ation. I agrred to the latter conrsc, and I i hen rnndc inqu~r-ies in oihcl' dir0rt.ions. I di"'OYNCcl that this principle could with aclvamage bo applied not only to people 1d10 contr-mplated the e tablishment of a Hour mill but alm to othn people-for instance. the Xorth,~rn n1aiz0~rowe1s, \Ybo arc contemplating tho establishrnent of a gl UCO~l' rnilJ.

Mr. ]\lOOHE: vYonlcl ovorv !.':rQ\Y('J' of wheat be financially re,,ponsiblc to \'11e m ill'!

The SECH.KL\RY FOR AGIUCuLTUHE: Ko, he mno't first rocei1·o hio allocation of share capit·al. The Leacher of the Opposition has rai"ccl a Ycry interesting point. I should not n":,ard CYorvbody \Yho supplied wheat to the Wheat l3oard as being financially li,blc m· re -ponsible fGr the estal>lishnJCnt of the co-otwratiYe flour mill. I am making no alteration in tiro c.cpital reqniremeub in that regard, nor do 1 11ropose that t.lu•r0 should l10 anv fmancial affiliation a.s lLt.v;een the bo.orcl.on the one hand and the co-operatiYo mill on the other.

Mr. GODFHEY :\TORG"U: The co-operative mill must bm- from tho \Yhoat l3oarcl in the san1e \,·ay as" auy othe1· pl'ivatc rnill.

The SECHETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Exactly. The organi~ution concerued \Yas anxious to bP registered under the Prirnary Producer./ Co-operative A .. ssoclations Acts, \Yhirh of course confer on prirnrrl'y producing organi~at.ions adYantages that arc not '\Yithin the ambit of tlw Companies .Set. 'The prin­ciple is an f'ntirely sound one, because I think th0rc is a distinct affiliation between pool boards on the one hancl and co-opera­tion on the other, ancl it is desirable that the two should work as closely as po:,cible in harn'ony one with the other.

'The otlwr matter contained in the Bill is perhaps smnewhat 1noro controYcrsial. Hon. rnembcrs \Yill renlcntbcr that fron1 t.in1o to iin10 the co-operative dairy Pxccutives and associations hanl raised the question of the e!fect of the existenc·' of cash orders in the dairying indu:3tl'~T. Deputations haYe n1ct me over the last two years asking that dairy factories and co-operati \·e a~sociations ha.-o 'omo relief from \\hat they vrery unre­senecllv term the cur'c of orders issued on fad·orics. The 5:J'""tc-n1 operates some­what in this way: Indi1ciclualo selling, shall we s.ty, 1notor cars, \Yireles·~ sets, sowing mac11inFd, or any other con1n1odity not being a dairying comn1odity. or anv rcquireu1ent for the dairying industry. w..tndcr down through ihc dairying country, eon1o in con­tact with the people ancl cay. "·would you not like to buv a \Yircless sot or a motor car?" oe whatCvcr it n1a:-~ be. ThP person says. "·well, I h<>Yo not got the money to do so.n The Yendor repli(!S, "There is no difficulty in that regard; you can give an order on the factory on Yonr crenm cheque, and eyerything will be well."

:\Ir. EDWARDS: The Agricultural Bank does it, too.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The Agricultural Bank does it in collabora­tion with its clients. Many clients prefer

Hon. F. W. B1ilcoclc.1

234 Primary P1oduce1·s', Etc., [ASSE:\IBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

that the bank ·.hould get a lien on their crccnn cheques through the co-operative dairy ascociation than be put to the trouhle of making remittances at regular periods.

J\fr. KE)!XY: The Commissioner of Taxes does it, too.

The SECRETARY FOH AGHICULTURE: The Con1n1issioner of rraxes is not under discussion.

Mr. EDWARDS: Sometimes the dairy farmer luts less than £1 to keep his family for the month aftn all deductions are made from his cheque.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRWL.::L'ITHE: There does seem to be some real reason 1-vhy co-opc~raii\·e associations should be relic.-eJ of the duty of bl•ing dcbt.collccting agencies agaiust their \Vi;,h. ~They are uo~v aln1ost entirely clebt-collcctlng ag~ncics. I know one o1· two factories who are con1-pellcd to employ a staff to look after this phase of their business. Co·operative dairy associations '' ero never designeJ for that 1vork. The systcrn has grown to LJo .a source of serious en1barra~sn1ent to co-operatiyc a-:isociarions generally, and its abuse is not in th, roal interests of farmerb thernsclvcs. Ono phase that should consider is that there is always type of indiYidual who weakly submits to the bl-andishments of the seller of a commodity on the time·pa•,ment prirh.:iple, and neYL'l' takes into collsidera­tion hi" capacity to pay. lie ahvays believe" th>tt the factory 1Yhero ho sends his crcarn \vill nlC'et these obligations, and to some extent he is relicYOL! of worry at the tiruc of purchasing an expensive article which he cannot afford to Lmv. If the obli­gation w0rc impowd definitely on him he might probably look at the matter more critically, and say, "\Vel!, I don't handle the n1oncy, aud v·on't risk it." Ge:~erally, this practice has assurncd alar1niug propor­tions, and (].airy as::.ociations desire that some limit should be placed on it. The Council of Agriculture, at its ]ac..t annual nrcct.ing, una11 irnousl.v pa-;;sed a re~o!ntion asking for the legislation which I am iuitiat. ing.

Mr. GoDFREY J\IORGAX: You practically sav that som0 farmers are not ce1publo of ha.ndling their own money.

The SECRETARY FOR AGlUCULTURE: I do uot admit that; it is stupid to say so. 'What I do contend is that a farmer should be made responsible for handling his money in his own way without delegating tlw pay· nrout of hh corr1n1itrnents to an authority which should not be created a dcbt·collect­ing agency.

Mr. MOORE: Does this Dill apply to eyerything, including croarn separators?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: If cream separators arc purchased through the factory it will be all right. I am not rnaking this Bill as s'Aeeping, or as arbitrary, as some hon. members seem to think. This Bill does not seck to say tlwt no orders shaH be given on any dairy a,ssociation, but at the present tirne it is con1pulsory on dairy associations to honour such orders whether thPv desire to do so or not. The directors rcq;1iro son1c po,ver to say v;.:hat orders shall and what shall not bo honoured, and conse· quently we are reposing a discretion in the directors.

Mr. GoDVREY MoRGAN : Will this Bill appl.'~ to case, .,·here the farmer desires to purchase a few milking cows?

[Hon. fi1 • W. B1tlcock.

The SECRETARY FOHAClUCULTCHE: That will rest with the directors of the lac· tory, who will initiate their own policy in that rog;ard. If they think it desirable to honour .-::uch orders, ·,\ e1l aud good; that is. not our concern. I believe that factories do not desire to honour all orders.

The next pba~c of the que~tion i;;; that the Bill provi1los that, ;d1erc orders are honoured, a charg(~ 111a> b_ lllacle for collec­tion. Many people have raised tl1c point that, seeing that they do not take advan· bgo of the time~ payment system and do not O'iYe orders on the dairv association•,, thcv ~hould not be charged l;y the management ·with anv of the co~t of rn.aintaining a staff to admmister that side of the busines5 in "hi eh, of course. the,, are not interested. Some people are inclined to dcl0gato all thci'r business to the dairy association, and' if the time of the bookkeepers. clerks. and auditors is taken up thereby this Dill autho· rises a charge to be 1nade for that \York. It is obvious that where service is giYcn service should be paid for, and that people 1vho do not use that senice should not be compelled to pay for those p0oplc who arc getting it. That is one of the fundamental principles of the Bill.

I haYc gi,·Pn particular~ of thP principles contained in this Dill. Both arc the result. of l't~prcsentations n1ade by influential sections of the con11nunity concerned.

Mr. 'YALKER (Cooroom) [12.3~ p. 'n.]: I ha-:c listciH'd attC'ntin·h to the· ~,Iiui:-tt'r's ('Xp~anation of the b' o~ jrnportant amend­ments involYed in this Hill. I ta!<e it that the ~linlstr:r ha~ s •-cured the op~nion of the Crown L.aw OHil i; on the tir::;t point­namely the l'l'moYal of the disability that" interfl'l:C?-d with ihe po\~Cr of suppliers of. a pool connnodity to fonn a co-op~ratiY!~ association to prnce.:;;s that COJllrncHllty. 1 cannot undl'l'"i-and the bon. gc'ntlenHUl say­ing that the \\'"at\""ick 1nill is not a co-opcl·a­tivc concern nndcr the prc~C'nt ~:\C'ts, anrl I chould hctYC thought that allY slight dis­abilitr that llli~ht haYo exi,tt•~l in that cotuH'ciiou. cuulrl

0

haYc been oYc-rcon1c y, irh­out. ihe nCccssitv of this an1011d1ng lr~·ls1a­t.ion. IlowC'vcr. ·if the lcJ<J l opinion is that it. is necessary then I lllU~t natural1y ~upport it.

T'hc ~erond proposal i~ an inll)Ortant one and is of far-rcachiJJg· in1portance. \Yhcn I '' ..ts ;\Iinistcr I kriow that the Cotton Hoard had one per _on doing no other_ w~;rk than attending to c.ash orders and snn:_ae bnsirwss. 'Vhen Mr. \Yt'hst<>r, tho keen rnanagcr of that board, 1nadc rcpr~'scntl.­tion::; to nrc I gayc tlH~ board 11rotcc:bon. by regulation, bearing . in rnlnd that notl~1ng f:hould be clone to hu1llor iho t.nw functions of the board in the prodttction of cotton. In the d.airYing indnstry there is a sy,jtcm. in vogue of purchasing scpnrator~. cream cans etc. under hirc-nurcha:-:;o agrf"cments, and' I \V~uld ljkc to · haYf' the- ::\Iinistc1·'s assurance that uothi11g" will be~ done to. int0rfere with the <t>"Jotunce that is thus giY<'n to tht' proJncPr~. 1L by l'C:'-Olli~ion at the annual lll('(;ting- of a dairy associauon, an instruction is given that tbc Uo[lrcl Gf dircrtors n1av continue to finance the pnr­rha.;e of tl~c V ad lclc I ha-:c lllCntionC"d, or collect Jcbts clue to Yarious agencies. will cficct to the association's \Yishcs be gi\·on ':

The SECRETAlW FOR AGRICULTL'RE: That i& provided for in the DilL

Primary Producers', Etc., [19 SEPTEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 235

Mr. \YALKER: That makes it much e<<'l0r. :\Iol'covcr, it will safcgunrcl tho position of the director~ concerned. In nuvv di:::tri('ts particularly \VC do not want to han• an.' interferen<·: at all.

The SECHETAHY FOR AcRICPLTrRE: The matter is entirely m the hands of tho oe!i rectors.

Mr. \L\LKER: If that be> ,o, and tho .. director~ pa~,,. certain rc::;olution:;:;. are we 110t getting back to \Yhcro ~YC' ·were?

The SECRETAUY FOH AGHICT'L'fl'Ric: Thoro is vcrv little ditfercllce betwPcn this amend~ ment , and the regulation \'vhich you issued in rc-;pect of thP Cotton Board, C'x<. -,~pt that this js legal ancl yours was uot.

Mr. \L\LKER: At any rate, I gave the Cotton Boarrl the proh•ction they desired.

If \\'f' procPPd on sun11d 1irws and bv Jaw protect tlw ho:v<h from bt?com ing · clc bt coll('etors agaln:-:t their \Yi~hc". we sha.ll be -doing son1c goocl; Lnt if it is a que~tlon mere!.' of the board of directors saying "'\Vl \Yill do this or tbat," then we a1·e nH'rcl~' getting back to \Yhcre we are to~cla:·.-. I hop0 the :\cinistcr ,.-ill elaborate on the points _l haYc DH'lltioned and guard against 'COnfus1on.

J\Ir. G(JDFREY :\10RGXN (Jiurilla) [12.36 p.u1.]: Tlw 1\linistcr has gmrwns.y given u . .;; a good l'xplanation of the contPnts of this Bill. 8o far "s the hon. gentleman intends to a~si~t in thr establishrucnt o£ a co-opcratiYc flour r11ill I an1 wlth him, bccau~.: -Llw tinw i:-) rlpe for the estnblish­nwnt of cO-OJH'!'atiYc~ mills, not only in ono partlcular C·~nto? but throughout· Queens~ land. (l:..;r (·xperieuce of co-opcratiYc bnttee factoric;;:.; has convinced us of the great bene­fit they confer on the pri1nar:;. producer. Hou. nu•nilwrs ,;-ill n•1ne1nber the tn~ain1ent l'(~CC'i\-('d farr11cr:-; ·who, in the early days, were to the> control of the pro-prietary conlpanies; but {~YcntuallY ilw farnH'l'~ cOJlferred aud took control Or thi~ section ~f th;~ir indn.s.iry.,, and ~o-day_ they arc renp111g tue he11efn. J here IS no Jndus­t.ry in Qneen-:lancl to-day where the producer

ns great a Jnca;;;-ure of value for ns i11 the cnRe of the dair",-ing

and that is attributable to" the fGct that lh• O\Yns lhe factory, and any profits re~nJting fron1 its Ol)Crat.ion"i an=~ dis­tribute<! bY ''·ay of bonus to tlu, share-holders. - ·

lion. memLers arc a>Yarc that the mills haYe been 1naking cxorbibtnt profits out of tho consumers of ilour and those primary producers \Yho arc purchase>rs of pollard and bran. It sccrns to 1nc to be an extraor­dinary thing, and it is not gencrall~v kno\vn, that the pou1t1·y farmer has to pay from £1 5s. to £I 10s. a ton more for bran and pollard than the primary producer has to pay for it in other States. l'coplc in this State are also obliged to pav £2 a ton on ~n a v0ragc. n1orc for flour fhan t.he pe~ple m the Southel'll St"tes. The people in this Strtte arc compollod to pay extortionate price>s to the local mill<ers owing to the fact that we ha,·c no fair competition. The n1illcrs are a united body-a corporation, trust, or combine; call them what you like -and they agree amongst themselves not to compete \vith one another, and to sell the flour, bran, or pollard at ccrt,in prices. I think the co-operative mill >viH succeed in abolishing the system that is operative to-day, and for that reason I welcome it.

I think \Yhen one mill is established in Toowoom ba we shall find that mills will be established in other parts of Queensland, uncl cYentually all the flour, bran, and pollarcl used in Queensland >Yill be mann­f,durcd by co-operative mills. In the bntto-r indu:--:.trv to-dav onlv ono or two private butter ~factorieS are 'in operation.

1Ir. S'\Y.\YXE: 'l'he same thing applies to sugar.

:llr. GODFREY 110RGAX: It appliPs to that illdu .. ~tr,\- right up to tlw raw-sugar stage, but whPn it goe"' to the rl'flllery it pas:-5CS i11to tlJc hunch; of a big proprjctarv ronilJine, one of the greatest tr·usts an(:l corubine'i in Australia. 'fhPre is no doubt the; get exorbitant prolits. That is wher·c that includrv fails. I would like to we the sugar indnstry go furth~'r tl1an jt has and take cont1·ol of the refineries.

The SEC:RETAHY FOR AGHICl'LTCHE: This alteration will enable them to do that.

?vir. GODFREY 110Rl~A:"\: I am Yery plea.::icd to know that it -will. The systern I iwYc in mind would enable the producers of sug·ar to control it frorn when it left t hl'ir Lu·n1s in tho shape of suga-1·-cane until it reached the icacUlJS of the consun1erJ. I think the quicker we get rid of tl·ust' an<l combines in industrv the Letter it will

for the primary prodt;cers. I have never a friend of the trusts and combines

ancl I hope I no>'Cl' shall. I ihiuk the pri­HHU'Y producer should get the greatest ruea­~'111'0 of Yahw llOS.:Jjblc fro111 his labour, for he i' re:::-puusiLle for the raw n1at(~rial on vvhich the trutib anc1 co1nbinns live. The prlnuLry producer rccciYcs little or nothing for his product, yd we find the members of com­bines li ·, iug on the fat of the laud. They haYc elaborate homes and many of them nwko trips OYersoas, and they :i'rc enabled to do that ov;ing to the fact that the farmer has not complete control of the machinery \\·hid1 handles his product. His control is 1iruitccl to a certain stage; CYcrHuaJ.y hjs product is taken over and he is left at the mercy of the exploiters. It is only human llaturc to e-xploit. Fortunately, the butter industry is not in Lhat position. To-day batter fat can be tmcod from the time it lt•aYes the farm until it reaches the con· ~1uner Pithcr in Australia or Urca,t Britain. En'rything that it is possible to get out of that industry is obtained. There is, per­haps, one way in which there could be an i1nproven1ent, and that is, in economy in Inauageruent. Our butter factories aro up· to-c1ato and, I aru given to understand, arc equal to those i11 any other part of the v·orld. Gc11erally speal:ing. the n1anagcnwnt is good, but there could Lo son1o irnprovc­mcnt. CH course, that matter is entirely ill the hands of the fll'imary pl'OclllCel'S thom­sC!YPs, inasmuch as the eledion of the cl i rectors is in their hands and they thereby wield tho pm.-cr of removing those who do not giye sati;.,£actlon. I should like to ~eo ih{~ otbor prirnar:v inc1ustrics in Uw same or a si1nilar position a~ the buttC'r inclu:-:;tr,v of this Sta.he. Dy this moans the farmer would rocei.-e everything possible for his labom and the consumer would be able to purchase the article at the ]o\Yest prico possible. Tho person engaged m any rural indu:-trv is entitled to a fair and reasonable profit, ;lOt just a bare li.-ing. He has always got his nose to the grindstone, and in many

lVlr. Morgan.]

236 Primary Producers', Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

cases, is not getting a decent living. In fact ther0 arc a great nurnbcr of iu~tancc; where hl~ i~ noi PYC'n g('tting a fair liYing. An extraordinary state of affairs is disclosed when ono compares the condition of tho farmer with that of the individual whq handles the primary product. The la.tter gets more than a fair living; in fact, one f-inds hirn in possession of a limousine in a position to travel m·erseas. C<nnpar:e the roey life of that individual with the exist­ence of the unfortunate farmer who works sixteen hours a day for se;-cn davs a week. I ha.Ye alwavs bc'on outspoken and I now express tbe opinion that I am in accord with the measure. especially if it will enublo tlw whc rtgrmYers to establish their own flour n1ills. Thp day i~ not fa1· distai:( whc•n, under prop0r llHtnagt1 1Hent and con­trol, we d1all have in Qupen,-Jand tho wheat grown in this State n1aunfadurcd iut.o flonr by our o'vn co-opci·a.tiYc 1nill:-~.

There is one matter on which I \Youlcl like the Sccrct,~ry fot· Agriculture to enlighten nw. At the pre~ent niornent. I unde1·stand, a co-operative flour 1nill cannot purchru;e supplies fron1 tho \Yhcat Board.

The SECRETARY FOR AomcnirGnE: The wheat. has to be sent to the \Yheat Board a!Hl therefore, und<'r the Act• .. the mill could not obtain supplies, inasmuch as the share­holders have to be suppliers.

::\Ir. GODFRE Y Jl.iORG A:'\: The Bill does not allO\Y the grower to send his pro­duct direct to the mill. The Bill provides that the wheat mmt first of all be sent to the pool.

The SECRE'rARY FOR AGRICCLTCRE: 'l'hat Is so.

Mr. GODFREY MORGA:'\: Aud as regards the whPat pool, the co·operative flour mills will be in tl'e same position as any other flour mill?

The SECHET.\RY FOH AGRICCLTCRE: That is so.

Mr. GODFREY 1\IORGA:'\: The co·Opera­tiYe mill will be able to purchaso its supplic-; from tlw pool·;

The Sr:cnETARY FOR AoHICI'L'n:nE: At the prc~cY"!t tinH\ O\ving to tho opPrations of the pre;m:t ~'l.cts, they are not able to do that. ThPv. c;annot rcgi:-::tcr as a co-operative a~soc1abon bee a use tltcv cannot conform with the rpquiroments of the Acts.

:Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: In accord­ance with the present Acts they could not be r0gistcrcd as co-operative associations.

Th<' SECRETAHY FOR AGRICLLTFRE: Under the ]l!Y·"cnt Ac(s, no. The proposed measure gtvcs a power to enable that to be done.

:VIr. GODFREY MORGA:'\: I have been given to nnderstand, that dm·incc all these ;y_ears, the \Y ar,vick flour 1ni ll ~,·,'as o a co-opera­tive concern.

Tho SECRETARY FOR AGRICT:LTURE: Not ·within the n1oaning of our Acts.

1\Tr. GODFREY MOHGA~: Xeverthelcc,,s, they have been able to purchase wheat from whore they cl0sire.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICCLTGRE: That is E'O.

Mr. GODFREY MORGA::'\: The co.opera­tiYc flour mills \Yill be able to obtain a certain quantity of ,,·heat from Southern suppliers?

[1111'. Morgan.

The SECRETARY FOR AoRICCLTcRE: As the· gTO\vcrs of the wheat will be the share­holders in the mill they will probably not obtain supplies from the South.

Mr. GODFREY MORGA~: In the event of the necessity arising there will be noth­ing to preve11t the co-operative mills from acquiring a supply of Southern wheat for blending purpo'<oo. It is recognised that in order to obtain the best quality flour there should be a blending of a certai11 proportion of Southern wheat. During the period that the Queensland flour millers refused to pm·­chase wheat from the ·wheat Board and con­tillued to use Southern wheat, the bakers throughout the country districts discovered tlmt it was practically impossible to make a decent loaf of br.ead with the flour that was· then supplied. It was only afte1- Queensland and Southern wheat were blended that a suitable bakers' flour was obtaim'd. '.fhat cxpcrieHcc praYed conclusi\ cly that it is necc:-sary to grow a cPrtain quantity of wheat in Queensland for blending purposes.

Dealing with the other matter mentioned by the Minister, he will haYe to be ve;·y ca1·eful inde(1 d, otherwise con~idPrahle trouble will bo cxpcrif'nced. Tht> directors of the butter factories aro noiY to be the solo judge' of whether an order by a fanner upon his cream cheque should be honoured. If they consider ~hat an order on a cream cheque for a wireleso set, gramophone, or a. piano is an ord2r !or something that the farmer can wet! do without, they will be in a position lo say that they \Yill not hono''l' the order. If an ordPr is given in respect of the purchase of a fw,,· milch cows, a ;:eparator, or son1ething e .. ;;sential to the indu&~# trY so that the farmer can earn on his pc;rsuit and increase his milk su]}ply, the din~ctors will be in a position to look favour­ably on snch an order. So that the farmer will be able to give an order on his cr-e·1m cheque in cerlain ca,es. It really means that the farmer or his \Yife, or both, arc to be protected from the "go-getters" who traye) the country pu~hing th1 sales of \Yirclc sots, pianos, and other things.

'Th0 SECRETARY FOR AGRICGLTCRE: I think so1ne protection is ne-cessary.

Mr. GODFREY ::\IORGA:\': Protection is nc<·escan but it should not be confined to­the farn;ers alone. Speaking from my expcrieuce s.s ::'vlinist"r in charge of the Rail­\Yay Dcpartn1ent. I \vas astound('cl at tllc number of orders ginn by railwaymen on the department. The ~ame can be 'aid of other departmc,nts of State. The Government are no'v n-:ally saying to the fanner, "'You are incapable of handling your money, and you arc incapable of making a wise decision as to what yon shall bu:·," but me- experience in the Railway Department tells me that this form of protection should be extended to the employees of the Railway Depart­ment, and perhaps to the employees of many olher Government departments. \Yhen I was JI.Iinistcr for Transpmt I was astounded at the amount of money deducted from the salaries of railway employees to meet orders giYen on their ~alaries. I \vas a;:.tnnnded at the numbc~r of orders which came to me for my signature as head of the dcl1artmcnt. In my opinion. many of the things purchased by the raihvay C'Inployccs were quite unnecPssary, but I ~upposc each individual is entitled to dispose of his mOJwy as he thinks fit. In thi' Bill \YC say in effect that

I'nmary Producers', Etc., [19 SE:PTEl\IBElt.] Acts Amendment Bill. 237

the farmer is incapable of deciding jmt how his. cream cheque shall be spent, and we are gmng to protect hin1 fro1n tl1c induccn1ellt:1 held out to hittl or his \\if<' Ly people YYllO

tra>el the conutry districts in the hope of ~e_lhug gramophone "1, pianos. rnotor cars, or wrrelc'•S sets. \Ye say in effect. "You will not be allmved to gi>e an order on your cream cheque for the purchase of a motor car, becau3c such a thing js unneccsasry for you."

The SECHEI'ARY FOR AGlliCl'LT"CRE : \Y c do not say that at all.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAX: That is what the Bill says, in effect. Th, factorv direc­to~·s arc to be given complete discretion in tins matter The inference is th,tt the din"> tors of the butter factories ha>·e come to tJw, ~onclusion that the dairy farmers are spend· 1ng qu1to a lot of 1nonev on things that arc really unnecessary. ~

Mr. CLAYTON: \Yhv shollld the farmer not hayc the same righ-ts as an,· pm·chnser in the citic•,? 'Why shou lrl he not be able to purchase a wireless cet?

;\Ir. GODFH.EY MOHGA:'--1: That is a point we ;teed to di,,~nss. \Ye must get dmYn to tm tacks. The ::\Iiniiitcr b" this Bill says that if a farnlf'r p;iYes an· order foe· somdhrnv. of that c!Pscription it JJccd not be recogn1sod b,~ the clair~, as:-ociation upon -which it is g-i,~en, yet nO sucl1 action is proposed in othPr di'rcetions includinrr the public serYico, -where the pr;tct1cc is i~ yoguo dail.v. Orders giYC'tl bv pnblic scr­Yflnts on th0ir salaric,:, arc honOured for the benefit of Hw comnaw.- concerned. \Y c arc O\~idcntly f!Oing t~ cl~scriminato by saying that the farmer is not capable of spending lus n1oney, and vet do nothino- in so far as the city wage-eai'ner is conccr7H~d.

The SECRETARY FOH AGRIOCLTCRE: You will look a little lees ridiculou, if You oniv wait until you read the Dill. " "

1\Tr. GODFREY MORGAX: Mv rPmarks nre based on the explanation giY.cn b:v the ::Vlm1ster. He sard that a clause in the Bill would giYo director,, of a dairv association poiYCr to say \Y~1ether an order: giYcn by a farmer upon hrs crPam cheque >Ymtld be rccogmscd or not. \V c ha Ye to look at the principle of the thing. whcth0r it is rig·ht ~'? dictate to a fanner 1vbo purchasc•s on t1mc-payn1ent and say to him, H Yon are 110t

capable of spending the monev you are getting for your cream.''

The SEC'lET.\RY FOR A.GRTCULTCRE: That is an abscn·d way of putting· it.

l\Ir. GODFREY MORGAC'\: The action of the GoYcrnrncnt can he put in that \ray.

The SECRETAHY FOR AGRTClTLTcm:: It can· not.

l\Ir. GODFREY MORGA X: Of course. it can. Tho Bill empowers the directors of " da-iry association to sav whether an on-Icr giYeu l,y a farmer on .his crearn cheque to the retailer of a wireh•ss set should bo accepted or r1ot. The Go-,~erHnlont do not say that it. shall not; tbe\· are shirkinO' U:~·ir respon-;ibillty and p11tting it on th~ rh rectors. The Bill >Yill sav to the directors: " If you so rJpsire YOU nPfld not dorlucL the amoL~·ut of this ord~·r" fron1 -the farn1c~·'s crea1n cheque." The directors can ignore the ordpr altogdlHT and send the full._atnount of the cream cheque to the farmer concerned. I

rpcognise that if the directors, in t}]('ir wis­dotn. beli('YC that the ordf'l' i:, in re:-::.nr'ct oi somothi11g which y, ill a~sist the far:ner to incrrJa~e his productivity they can honour it, and at the same time, should thev so desire. make a charge to the Lurner for l~eep­ing his account. I :lf!Teo \vith the principle that if a, fanner gives an order on any dairv as~ociation. ancl that his action entails incre:_,sed work -and rcsponsiLiliiy on the staff of the association, the association shot1ld ha 1·e the ri n·ht to make a charo-o to the farn1cr for ~~wl1 \York. That is ;nl~~ equit­able in fairness to those suppliers 11ho do not lake adYantage of that method of finan· cing· their tramadion'·. That is merely vi1·ing effect to the principle that yy·e shoulci not expect people to do sometlti ng for us for nothing. An:' increase in the oYerltcad expenses iucurred by work of such a nature, tends to reduce the price fixed for cream.

The Bill is probably more importHnt than \Ye l'f'alisc froJn the introductory rc•n1arks of tlll~ 1\linistPr. \Ye cannot ahva~·s judg{~ the contents of a Bill merely by the remarks n1ade in introducing it.

i\[r. BARNES ( Wanriclc) [2.0 p.m.]: There are certain a~peci~ of this meaRuro on \Yhich I desire fon1o onlighton1nent, for the intro­ductory remarks of the Minister do not make clear to me the r0al scope of the Bill, par­ticularly in regard to co-operative flonr mills obtaining supplies of wheat. I gleaned from the intc,·jection made by the hon. mc1uber for JYlurilla that the proposed eo­operative mill >vill be under an obligation lo obtain supplies from the \Vheat Board in the usual wav. and the remarks of the Min­ister indicated to me that, hitherto, mills wore frt\e to obtain their supplies from individual wheatgTo ,·erii. In othe1· >Yorcls, I understand this Bill makes it obligatory npon a co-operative flour mill to deal through the State Wheat Board. That being· so, •vhy h:•s a miller been preYeutcd heretqfore from ohta.ining suppliu direct from wheat fanners? To mv mind there has been some missing link. Apparently. as the Minister inclicatcd. the air will now be cleared and the• position made plain that a co-operati>e 1ui1l is under an obligation to purchase sup­plies of "heat through the State Wheat Board. But what will he the position in a season \Yhcn the wheat crop is belov; uormal requirements? \Yould a co-operatiYe mill that is forced to go to other States for c'tl]lplies be obliged to conduct all ncgotia­tions through the State \Vhcat Board? It mav be sugg-csterl that such a position is unlikely to arise, but the Government should remember that a co-orlcrative flour mill will require to possess tllc sa.1nc freedom of action enjoyed by privately-owned flour milling ;ntere•ts to secure supplies from the Southern Siatc, IYhon there is a scarcity of wheat locally.

I was surprised to learn from the :\Iinister that. the \Varwick Farmers' Co-operative i.T!llmg Company is not a co-operative con­cern IYithin the meaning of the L~cts. for I haYc always understood that it wac as much a eo-operative cOIY'ern as the butter and other co-opArative ao::sociations \Vhjch co1ne within the ambit of those _\cts. Nor is it nntim.oly to rcn1ind hon. mc1nbcrs that thc·.:o co-opcratiYe concerns would not be in exist­cnc0 to-daY but for the financial assistance rendered i1y " dry" shareholders and pcr­mns not ~,ctually 11roduccrs of the commodity dealt with.

Mr. Bcwnes.]

:238 Primary Producers', Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

I happen to be the person who proposed the establishment of the \Yarwick Co-opera­tive Butter Factory, a.nd I am aware of the diflicnltic that were encountered in our efforts io sc•curo shareholders \Yith capital in order to commenr8 opcrahons. -~V\le \vere largc•ly dependent upon men who are to-day referred to as " dry " shareholders; and if it were not for the assistance rendered by these people the \V arwick factory \rould not b a vc been co1nnu:meed .as carlv as it \Yas. It ha~ been sugge--ted the~ \Varwick .Fanners' Co-opcratiYo :3.1illing Con1pany is 110t a co-opcratiYe association ·within the me-aning of the Acts; but in the true sense it is a co-o)wrative company, for the great bulk of the shareholders are farmers who tlro resident in and round \VanYick and the Allora districts.

R('ferencc tlS made this rnornlnp;, par-ticularly by the hon. member for l\lurilla, to the mi !ling interests and other concerns \Yhich were not co-operatiYe. It would be intercstiug io know at \Vhat stage of deYelopment wo would have arrivr cl to-clay if 110 companies had boon operating, and we ha cl been compelled to \Yait for the deYclopmont of an enterprise through the efforts of the indiYidual gro1v,- rs of \Yheat or producers of milk. I think a consider­able anwuut of gratitude is clLlO to those cnt,•rprior's "·hich lwYe been initiated by ploplc outside the pri1nary industries whose products they took; for they en a bled great co,otwrativo industries to be deYelopccl. l am a ware that the tendency to-day IS

tov:tlrds nationalisation. If everything is to be ~ociali:iecl, \Yell and good. Take the ·case of the moat industry. If you deal c·o-opera lively '' i th that industry your opt)rlttions rnust em brace also the \Yool indn,,try, became the cliifl'l'cnt pr~rts of tiro whole must be combined. I! the uncler­takillg i~ to be thoroug-hly carried out the product must be dealt with until it reaches the distributors. The shareholder, of the VVar\\-ick Farmers' Co¥opcratiYc :J\lilling· Con1pany 'vould be annoyed to learn ihat their cornpany has not bcou conslclcrcd a -co-operative concern.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICl:LTl:HE : I think they \Yf;re in operation before the Primary Producers' Co-operative A'"sociations .Acts came iuto operation. I do not thi11k they subscribe to tbc conditions in the Acts.

:Mr. BAR:'\ES: It appears to me that the second portion of the Bill will serve a Yery fine purpose. At tl1e s.ame time I think the Minister should be acquainted of the fact that many a clair'' farmer has been enabled to start a~' a l'l''ult of the as·;istance affordl'd to him bv butter factories. either in honour­ing on1('~rs mr them or -in supplying the payJYtent for dair~v stock. Sorne factories htlve gon" so far as to supply the dairy stor·k. It may be found essential to make a charg·c for the se-rvice, and I would point out to thf' halL member for JYlurilb that the R,ailwa.v Deparbncnt charges 2~ per cent. for collecting payments. I would be very reluctant to ~upport a suggt~stion that the dairyrnan who i::i d0.sirous of securing dairy cows should be under an obligtltion to pay 2~ per cont. on the payments that have to be made to the seller of the stock. It would be another bu·rdcn on a class of people who arc alrcad:· labouring under great difficul­ties.

It will be a very fine thing to have some deterrent against the facility with which

[ilir. Barnes.

Yarious articles are at present sold to them. .iVfany a piece of machinery has been pur­chased on orders given on butter factones and farmers have been induced to purchase n1an~T nnn<'cessary articles by the eaf-e "\Yith which orders could be gi,·en on ;;:.o,ne board or other for payment. As indicated by the Secretary for Agriculture, no doubt it will he \Yell for us to wait until the Bill is befor1~ tho liouse before ent('I'lng into an intensive examination of the provision.

:\cr. Ell\YARDS \.runrmgo) [2.13 p.m.]: I quite rcalioe the hostility of sornc of the factor: ~uppliers to any inctn·~ion iuto the reahn of th-=-·ir priYate business .. bnt at tho sun1e tirnf' I r·ocop:nisP that there is a reason ' hv thi.s amending Bill should be brought bdorc the House. Certain farmers are sometime,_, influenced by not too scrupulous Yf'ndors iuto purchasing artides by reason of the fact that all that is nf'cesBal'y is to giye order;:; for payn1ent on a factory .. Sueh Dll order may be gi,·cn \Yith the best mt<·n­tion, but r;hen the orcin has to be mot the farmer':-\ retnrn rnas Le oHly half "·hat it "·a:" \Yhcn Uw order~ ''us signed. Frorn n1y O\VJl cxperi1'11ce I know of nrany cas<:-s where, a ftcr the alllount to m Pet an onlc1' has been "·illdJcld, the farm0r has not haLl sufficient to purchase the needs for his wife and L1,111ily. During the initial stages of the opcr,~tion of this n1ea~1ue, the Secretary for Agricultnn' ,wuld be well ach·ic·cd to proceed carefully, but at the .wmc time I do thmk that the factories should haYo the power aL-:nluiclv to refuse orders.

The Sl;CHETAH1 FOH \GRTC CLTCHE: That is "hat the Bill JH'OYides.

Mr. ETHLUUJ:S: I qniie agree with the proYi~ion bccan~e it is r1nite nnder::..tandab1e that the conditions that obtained when an order ''"as gi Yen nw.y ha YC been Yastly diffcl'f'nt fron1 tho::;0 obtaining wlH~u the or~lcr has to be n1cot. A::; a 1nattcr of fact. o "1ng 1o inl]n'oYing concljtion.::<, .n1auy ;:~ fnrmc1: has bc~·n talk0cl into pqrcha:"tng Yanou., ar·1·1cl(·~, forg('tting altogct!Jer that at a later stage, O\' ing to drought or other unfor~:· een,calF•,.;;, hi~ clair).' cheque ntn;' be ffil.tch le~~, tnan he l.nt~c1pated. I undcrstaud thrrt undrr the propo.':-f·{l !neasure c..-cryonc "·ill. Lo on. the Eanlc fooring. I 1na.v f'.a:"' tbat tlH' ... \gncul­tural Bank has ccrtainlv not been backward in demanding it~ payJ~·lCnis. l arn afraid that. the position ha' uot been e, the Secre­tarv for A.gricu1tnrc has indicated. The ~\gi·icultural Bank, in n1any ca;Jcs, has demanclccl that a certain percPHtagc of the anlO"..mt to bo clue to the farn1Pr enclr rnont.h f'hall bQ 11aid to it. I coultl cltc rnany instances Yvlwro such procedure ha:s caused hardehip, especially when the bank has taken a~ rnuch a:i tv·;o-thirds of the an1onnt of the cheque.

The FOR a11y ca~c been I lnYe irnmodiatclv amount he reduc,•d. V

AGRICULTURE: \Vhen brought to mv notice imtructcd tl;at the

C\fr. E!l\VARDS: That is so. C~,ly remarks app1:, a\, 0 to tiro Collmli"ioner of Taxes. l\1allv diifrcultic3 b( set the farnung com­lllllllltv Jn re(rard to tl1c giving of these onlcr~·< and it "is prrl1aps a gooc1 th1ng that this Bill should become law. While I do not wislr to cnrtail the freedom of the mdr· yjdual to carry on his Oi':n priYate husi_ness in his own way I do at the sr.1ne t1111e, unilcr~tatnl tho. 'grave 'situ~tion that. indi~ yidnal farmers are placed m from bme to time. I think the measure embodies a good

Pn:mary Producers', Etc., [19 SEPTEMBER.] Acts Anundment Bill. 239

idee. but ne director, of rhe factoric will ba\'e to be YC'rv careful ind('t'd a:-3 to wlrat order~ they acc;'pt.

Mr. MOORE (Aubiuny) [2.18 p.m.]: I haYe no objection to the first part of the Bill which seeks to allow a primary pro­ducing orga-nisation, which secures its pro­ducts fron1 a pool, to be registered as a co-operative association under the Primary Producers' Co-operative .A.ssociations Acts. AnYoHo would think thaL the use of the •xo~:d ' 1 co-operative" was going to spell snccess, and that tho people associa.ted with a co-operative organisation \\'Ore to have an inf'mitel:, easier position by its mere use. As a n1att.er o£ fact, there \Yero tvYo co­operatiYe flour mills on the Downs, in addi­tion to the one at ·warwick. One was established at Dcllr: and farmers became shareholclf'rs. Another wa.s estctblished at Pittsworth. Both of them were failures am! en•ntnally they wore sold. I particularly rPr!lernbcr the Dalbv n1i1l because I V:."aS a shareholdt'r and I ~ as "'nrlln1o11cd for not pavi11g a call on my shares. These mills ' ere not the success that it was anticipated they wonlrl be. A flour mill cannot get out oi its difficulties merely by beiug- reg-istered as a co-opcratiYe association 'vith the right io secure wheat from a whellt board. How­c\·er, I sec no objection to that 11art of the Bill. People must learn from Pxperiencc. The m ill mcty be a success and it may not. That is a mrtitcr for the indiYiduals who subscribe tlw share capital of the undertaking con­C('l'lH?d.

The other part of tho BilL dealing with cc>h orders, is a total!;· different matter altogether. I &rn not in favour of pla.cing a fence of protection around only one sec­tion of the conununity.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRTOULTURE: You did precisely the same thing \vhen you passed the Primary Producers' Organisation and Marketing Ad of 1930. This is exactly the ~anw cl a use.

1\Ir. ]\100HE: I do not think the prin­ciple };, a good. one.

Tlw SECHETAHY ron AonrcuurrRE : You agr,~cd to it as Pren1ier.

:Mr. :MOORF.: I may haYe agTccd to all sort of thing:::, but I rnay no\V sec the follv of them. People do not always a-dher<; to the sarne opinion.

The SECHETAHY FOR AGRIOl.:LTLHE: I think it depcndc. on \\"hat side of the Cham­ber you sit on.

}Ir. MOOEE: No. If it is rig-ht to pro­tC'ct one section of the cornn1unit,y frorn the tin1c-pa=·1nent S) ;-;t.ern then the protec­tion should be C\Ctc'rldcd to all sections of the conununity. If it j~ \\ rong for a \vagc­enrncr or a primary prodllCcr or ,,l-ny other scctlon to jndulgc in the tirn(>payrncnt system then it is wrong for all, and protec­tion should be universal.

The SECRETARY FOU AomocLTuRE: This Bill does not prevent the operation of the tiu1e-payrncnt systom.

1\Ir. }100RE: Ko. but it prevents the indiYidual fron1 giving an order on his fa,·iorv. I do not snpposP that this Bill ,. ill be able to exclude properly stamped dormn0nts or ordt>l'S of a court?

:\Ir. \Y. T. KrxG: The time-payment system is bad throughout.

Mr. :\lOORE: I agree. The directors of factories aL'e to ha\·e the right to ,ay that they \vill not honour orders given by dairy fanners on their factories. The principle· does Hot appear to be right. If it is right that the directors of butter factories shall be allowed to decide what orders shall b& honomod then it is perfectly right to extend the same power to locccl authorities where a contractor working for a local authority gives an ordE'l' over his n1oncy in payrnent fer f:Oil1Cthillg he l'f'CjUircs. rrhcro is llO

difference. It is rerfectly right for a local authority to refuse--

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICCLTCRE: That rs­an entirely difieront case.

1\Tr. MOORF:: It is not an entirelv dif­ferent case. If th" hon. gentleman had been a member of a local authority h~ would kHow that all sorts of orders on a local authority arc given to rnake payrncnts on behalf of workers or contractors employed hv that body.

The SECHFT\RY FOR AGRICCLTUHE: The con­tracLOr is the ,-mployee of the shire for the time being) and there ie a limjtation on the amount that h9 can dra\v.

:\Ir. MOORE: There is no limitation on tho amount that he can draw after his work is finished. Tho contractor is entitled to the rnoncv that he earns in oxactlv the sarnc \Ya-- as the prin1ary producer wh~o smlLls in cream is entitled to the money that he earns.

The SECHETAHY FOR AGRlCuLTl"RE : The Dill does not prevent the farmer from get­ting his money.

Mr. NIOORE: Ko, but it e:rYos the directors of butter factories the~ right to decide whether they will honour any order given by the farmer to pay certain moneys out of the monev to which he is entitled. If it is right to p~·eycnt a dairy farrner fron1 giving an order on his OIYn n1011Cy then it is a 1 <> right to prevent a contractor or a. vYorkcr in any indu~try from securing the money to "·hich l1C' is entitled by giving an order thereon. You cannot stop the indi­Yidua.l horn being stupid, but if this is tlie right way to attempt it then it should be applied all round. \Yhy should a dairy farmer supplying a co-operative factory be placed in any dilforent position from any other mn,n in the C0111lTIUnitv? I cannot see \vlwre the difference comes· in. It seems to me that it is the principle that is aimed at.; that people a.re inveigle·] into purchas~ ing articles hen they cannot afforJ them merely because they are asked to pay a snud] .:unuunt dv.\·n and gi,-e an order on thC'ir earnings, .tg(!S, or \Yhnt is curning to them. and that nltirna.tcly places them in diifhllt.:c. The principle is jLJSt the same in the case of the railway ernployeP. tbc factory E mrlloyce, or any other employee.

The SECHET.\HY FOR AGHICCL1TRE: It IS·

opemting under the pool qoarck

Mr. J\IOORE: That is bccau.sc the Govern­nlcnt SCC'lH'O t hom:::e]Ycs br taking- a ]ien on monev in the hands of· the b~ard. The fann8r the ~ame principle. It '" ork;; all frorn hi<:~ point o£ YiPw. \Yhv ~hould Dill onerntc on one se,·tion of t'l-._~ corutrunitv a1ouc? \Yhnt the ~1iuistcr is doing h,Y this ·Hill 1·:. rnaking a v;atcrtight compartn1Pllt for one section of the com­nlunity only. If the tin1c-paymcnt systern

JJ.ir .. Moore.]

240 Primary Producers', Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

is wt·ong for one section, it is \\Tong for all sections. If orders giYen by people on rnoncy cor11iug to Uwnr place thorn in a clifficult position then it is wrong. It is ro11g that some l)eoplc should rnortgage their futuro in t!1e pnrchaso of oxpl'llSiYc articles that the;~ ~annot afl'ord, and if tho GoYcrnmcnt arc going to stop thern I quite agree with thc1n, bnt it is no gooJ singling out one section ancl sa~~ing, "It is \\Tong for you, but right for other;-;." Tbo dairy fanner '1Tho gl't~ a cheque fron1 a faciory for cream sup1)lied has just as 1nuch right a::) a ''rage-earner ho1v he shall disvoc o of it. If it is that a logal document should be honou1~ecl by a local authority or priYato employer, then it i~ perfectly rif,-ht that a dairy a:3suclation ~hould do the ,,an1e thing. I c11~itP J'tcognisc- that the principle ain1cd at is right, llut arc we biting off one corner of an act \Yhieh WP roe:og11iso is a legal act and saying- that one section shall be placecl in a diffcn::nt position to every other section of the comn1nnitv. I cannot see n1uch sense in that. I know vthat clerks in office;:;, banks, and in all sorts of omplo:ving agencies rnort­gag~' their future b) purchasing thiugs which arc wom out before the payments for them arc fini;::hccl. It would be a Yerv good thing to curtail their actions, but it i' not a good thillg to take one section of the co1nn1unity, as \\8 hare in this Rill, and say, "Bccau,e :you ha.ppen to -:ecnrn your n1oney hon1 a particular industry which i.s working under a co-opcraLivc A_ct vou arc going to he placed on a different footing from any other section of tho co1nmunitv .. , rTbat i, not ju,tilicxl. "

I qnito agree with the suggestion in the Bill ti1at if supplier::; io dairy associations are going to give orders they should contribute to the cost of illP \York entailed in n1eet.ing those orders. You can depend on it that B'TC'l'Y other hnsinc:-:;s ~oes to it that such SC1'Y~'ccs arc paid for.

Tb(• SECRETARY FOH i\GRTCULTLnu;: )r ou can­not make any charge for tho.:;c sPr\-iccs no\v.

:'dr. l\IOORE: They do it. The SECHETARY FOR AGRlccun:R~: If my

auditors get hold of any such practic 1 th.~t will be the end of it.

"C.fL MOORE: Obviously, a compan;;· would not lo:-:.c b·v such work. I canno1-. sec anv justificatim~ for preYenting a pcr~on, who ls prepared to pay for the scrYicP, from giving an orrh~r on his earnings in a f'mnpany or the company from accepting it. This matter should not" be -dealt 'Yith under this Bill. but under a time~paymcnt Bill which will opcralc in respect of all sections of tho corn1nnnity alike.

The SBCRETAHY FOR AomcuLTURE: Yon will acln1it that this Bill is going a long \Yay to doing that.

l\Ir. MOORE: I cannot see anv reawn for singlin(;· out the 1nan engaged uin dairy farmin~· because that happens to be his occnpation.

Mr" O"KEEFE: It is a good thing to make a start.

:\Ir. MOORTI:: If it is a good thing why not n1akc it universal?

The SECHETARY FOR AGRICULT"CRE: Have vou ever heard of section 92 of the Com­monwealth Constitution?

l\Ir. MOOHE: I ha Ye. That section may ha Ye a certain effect on trade between two

[Mr. Moore.

States, but tho time~payment system within tho State is the big question. Of course, a n1an n1ight set up a business oYer the borckr and sell in Queensland a pianola or some other instrument from Tweed Heads instead of fron1 Coolangatta; and if that 1vas 1·egarded as an interstar0 sale any o1·der mado for payment of the debt might have to be recognised. That, ho,vever, is not the point with which I am dealing; I am eoncPnwd 1norc 'Yith the principle. I syrnpa· thise with tl1c endeaYotu io rr1inirnise the oxpeme im~olved in those matters" but I do 11ot think it is \Yise to n1ake fish of one section of the communitv and fmd of another. In any eycnt, hovv~ can the GoYPrn­nwnt introduce legi:-:;lation t11at \vill over­ride ordinary COlnlnou law rights in respect of, :o,ay, garnishccs? It is quite 3n easy matter to r xccute a <locumcnt properly, ancl if the law is to be ob~wrved then any order n1aclo n1ust be hoHoured. _\s a mmnber of a local authority, I have tried to aYoid acrcpting ordnrs in respect of people who really had no right to g·i,-e them, but I found that the law had to be obe:vecl.

I donbt whether this measure will havo the 0ffect that the ::Ylinister anticipate~. and I object to tho principle of -dividing the connaun ity up into srnall sections, placing ono ~ection on an entirely different basis froill another. Otherwise there does not seem to be much in the Bill. I do not object to it. but I think a ;,rong method js being u""~ctL It would be going a long 'ntV to dealing~ ,.-ith the matter if the pro~ y]s~on were al)plicd to Dll sections of the COinlllllllity.

}l.lr~ LLEIYELY~ (Toou nom ba) r2.38 p.HL]: The !it ,t of the principles contained m thi Bill will meet with the approYal of the \vhcatgrowers esrwcially. and the second principle will have the concurrence of tltP n1ajorit.' of primary prcc1ucers in auy indthtn" It will be tTmomlH'recl that fol~ lov.·ing ·upon the agrrcrnc11t n1ade bct\Yccn the flonrmillcr·J and the State \Ylwat Board considcrJ blc contro\~('l :cv arose a.o; to tho profit., that the tnillcrs "''"ore re put eel to bo n1;~ 1 ~ing. That in~pircd the fPeling in the 111iwb of '\\hcatgTo\vers that. the tiulO \vas oppcrtnnP io establish a rnill of llwir own, an(l the \Yhcatgro"~.vcrs' association com­m('ncccl an agitation to achicn-c that objcc­tin•. Certain inqui1·ic::; ·,rero set in n1otion, ancl it was asePrtalnod tl1at no legal mar·h inery existed to permit of the establish­ment of a co~operati,~e flounnilL IIoweYer, this Bill r<'lum·~es the obstacle and paves tho wa,· for the establishment of snch a mill. Foi~ the la~t bYo years particularly, the ~,,~-h('atg·ro\Yers have disp1ayed a very keen intcn•st in this matter, and I submit with all difficl0m·e that those growers should have the opportunity of tooting the Yalue of co~op­cration so far as it affects their oY.n industry. In that way an opportunity would be gin,n to ascertain~ approximately at all cyents, just what profits aro macle bv f!ourmlllers, ha,-ing regard to the price paid to the wheat~ n-ro" er for his wheat an cl to the price that fhc ron~nmcr pays for the processed. article. If it harl no other ya]ue" the cstabhshment of a co-orwratiYc ilounnill wo111cl te"'-t, in a practical \Yay, whctlwr or not the millers haYe been making cxcossi\'C profits, and would Yinclicatc either the millers or the norsons "~ho bclicYc that the millers have been rccei,-ing g-reater profits than those to which thcv arc entitled. In that particular regard this Bill is welcome to every section

Primary Producers', Etc., [19 SEPTEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 241

of the com1nunity-·to the whcatgrower, see~ ing tlwt it \Yill enable hi1n to ascertain whether he is getting· the full market value for his con1modit:;T, anll to the con~uli:Cl', who will bo able to judge whether his iniPrc ,t~ arc being protected. In those mr­rumstniLee::; the Bill j-;- indeed \Yolcolno.

. Judging by the enthusiasm displayed by mall'\" of the \VhcatgTO\YCl'S around ri_loo­\\'OO!llba, I ohall ue surprised if the mill is not establiohccl .at a reasonably early elate. I understand that circulo.rs have been sent to tl1c various ·whcat.growers in an endea­YOUl' to o!Jtaiu the necessary capita.l, and so far satisfactory replies haYe been

The• ~ccond principle contained in thi~ Bill is one which must commend itself to hon. n1cmbers. Ilon. llH.'lUbcrs arc a1vaxo that we haYc a clas:3 of jnclividuals in the corn~ nlullity \Yhorn \YO de,.;ignato as "go~getters"; and their activities are particularly directed to the conntl·v districts. The hon. member for ::\Iurilla ,~~axed eloquent in a llenuucia­tion of tho exploiter. :\o Government mmn~ ber could have mctdc a more fitting speech on thi, problem than the hon. member for l\Iurilla. rnatle this rnorning, and I cornpli­tnent !Jiru 011 it. In 110 uncertain tern1s he denounced the "go-g-etters." The Leader of tho Opposit1on thi.~ afternoon rnade one remark, ·",dJ1ch in iihelf Yindic~t·,r~ the speech rnade by the hon. n1enrber for l\lurilla, and i~ s~tfiic·rent jw~tification for the ~linistc~r in inttoducting- this h'gislation. The lion. n1em­ber for Aubigny :aid, ';\Ye cannot 3top 3:11 indi l'idual from Leing stupid." That m itself should convince hon. members of the need for legi~lation that \vill protect any indi­vidual frou1 being stupid and haYing these things llUt OYl'l' hint b~~ the class of pCl'~OflS I ha\'e clc''~ig-natPcl as "go-getters." \V.c .realise that not only arc the prirnury pro~ ducer:-; <l fl'rcted ; thPre are other features ,,.0 slJOulcl not lose sig-ht of. I understand there is a buit('r factory not rnanv l;,ilc:.., frorn Brisbane, anrl the hor;. member: for Aibcrt \l'ill probaLly agree with me when I ~ay that in that factorv thete were three derks •.dwse time is occu];ied by checking these orders and arrann·ino· the amounts that have to bn paid to tl~' ;arious merchants. Is it right that a staff of clerks should be so engaged, and tht'ir scrYiccs be a charge against the suppliers? That is an added reason for this [1l'OYisiou in the Bill. I wolcom0 the Bill. I believe it is Jlopular amongst all cla'Sb of the farming community

Mr. PLU.'\KETT (.tlbc1·t) [2.40 p.m.]: For a consiclcmble time thoro has been an agita­tion b.v rcpre:"lcntatives of the dairying indus­try ~~~ith the object of securing son1e protec­tion for the factories. aml of rdiC\-ing them of the obligations to honour orders on ct·eam chequb. This practice has grown to such an extem during tho period of deprr·c,sion \Ye

haYe pa:-,~Pcl through, during the last two years, that to-day Cjnite a llU!llUer of prO­ducers have Loon forced to buy things they necded~and perhaps thing-s which they did not need~ancl to give as many as half a dozen assig-nment·, to the vendors on the various co-operative companies thev supplied.

In many cases they have thereby exhausted their monthly cheques t\Yice oYer. There arc people in the community, pro,·cnted by neces_:,ity, perhaps frorn purchasing for cash \vhat they think necessary~but which

they could do >vithout-who in a weak rnon1ent haYe signed orders on a factory ''hich tlwy had no po.''ciblc chance of meet­ing.

The SECHETARY FOR AonrcuLTl'HE: Some vvere not particularly concernc-ll as to whethc"' they could pay or not .

::\Ir. PLU::\'KETT: I would not look at it in that light at a;!. I do know that quite a nnr11bcr of sn(·h orders huYe been signed in all good faith. The po.~ition is, that verv often these orders wuc oig-ned in a flush season or a period of high price•-;, whereas "ithin a few months pric0s fell to :-uch an e"'Ct.-).nt that there was no possible chance of their honouring their signatures. :Negotiations between the ~cllf'r and pur­chaser had then to be undc·rtakon, with the rcsu lt that it entailed considerable work in the books and accounts of the factory month after month, and year after year. I undPrstand that this Bi!l will not prevent factories from helping their producers to bnv something- that may be necded~for lnstancc', a ne'v s0parator, or sonrething of that nature. On occasions a fannPr desiring to pm·chasc a separator for tho dcn,lop­rncnt of his farrn can on]v do so if he is .allowed to giYo an ordt:r. on his factory. \Ye Und, hot\"O\"cr, that instead of purchasing articles nccr-,-,~ar.'l for hi-, industry, he is giving orders to insur._tllC(~ companies, pjano scllns. and a multiplicity of activities. Such people have be<'n YisiLing fanners and inducing them to purchase articles they could really do without. They glibly put fcn'\-'ard the argurneut tbat '; It \rill rncan onl,f a pound rL rnonth fr·orn you, and you can g-ive: rrn order on the factory for tint." Apart from its cficct on the dairy factories, this measure \l'ill protect the individual from himseli. lt will keep a number of persons fr·orn signing ordl'rs for artic~cs tht:y r·0a lly cannot afforcl to pa.y for, and from that point of vie\\' I know that the Beaudesr-rt Co~opcrative Cmupan~·, at least, \vill appreciate the protection this Bill will afiord. I, myself, support it so long a, it does not prevent the factories, of their O\Vn goodwill, a:->5isting any of their ?uppliers to purc-hase an~~ necessary artwlos to incrca:·w or impro\ c the production of their fanns.

Mr. MAHER (West Jioreton) [2.45 p.m.]: I do not think there will be any olJj ection from any member of this Committee to the propos:?cl amendment of the Primary l'ro­UucPrs' Co-operative _l\_ssociations ..._t\.cts along- the lines of gi,·ing the proposed co­operatiYc flonr mills the O)lportunity to become reg-istered in terms of the Acts. l!owcver, I forp·:;co a difficnlty confronting those who purpose establishing co-operative mills. These mills will oomo into competi­tion \vith priYate enterprise, but v.·hereas the priyat0 miller is entitled to buy his wheat on the cheapest mctrket the co-opera­tive miller will Le <'xpected to lmy his article in Queensland at the farmers' idea of Yalue. It will thus bo diflicult for the co-ope>rativc miller to market a profitable line in competition with privately controlled mills. Old established private millers have their own custom and it is going to be hard for co-operative mills registered under the aegis of these Acts to estaLlish them­selves unless thcv obtain a monopoly of the trade, like the· butter factories. To my

Mr. Mahet·.]

242 Primary Producers', Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment BiU,

mind it \\Oulcl be cxtrNnelv diflicult to make a succl -;s of the cntcrprisl~.

As to the prodsious of thi, Bill in rcb­tion to tho giving of order:S, I take a sornc­what different vic\v from those expl'(?S"cd by ~OlllO hon. tucrnbors this afternoon. l really sec no objection at all to the• time payrnont plan in busincsJ opora-:-~onf'. In fact, I consider it is an clerncnt in our n1odcrn systcu1 of buying and selling.

Nece~sarily, under such a sehcrne if sou1e security is asked for it usually t~kes t.h., forru of au order. These orders arc not issued on butter factories alone but thcv are also is,suL·d Qn sugar rnills: sa v"·n1i1: ,;, n1ining enterprise.-:-aLuo~t an v J iue of indu~try in IYhich largo boUies ~)£ nH'!1 arc employed. It 1\0uld be vcrv diflicLlit for men engaged in industries t~ secure cn~dit if. it \\ere not for the security in the dmpe of a caoh order. Take the case of a shearer. 1-:lc 1nay be a roarner who cornE':- into a. country township where he is not known and desires to oi.Jtain c-redit. 1£ it were not for the fact that he could giYe, and have accctJtcd, an or{]er on the station 1vhere hu was to shear he would not bo able to get the artrcle9 that he requrres. rrhe smne thino· applies iu other industries. I(no-wing th~ danymcn as 1 do, I cannot belicye that theso men would giYe ordero foolishlv. Surely there is a higher lm-el nf intclli­gouce amongst the dairymen of this State than is indicated by this effort on the part of the G m·ernment to preycnt them from ~iviug ef!octiY(-~ orders on a butter factory J

1 recogrn~e that these orders Jo create a. great deal of additional work on the part of tho managemcut of a butter factorY but that difftculty. could be overcome by [r{lpos­mg a collectwn fee. V cry freqwmtly I ha n) been called upon in nry OV\'Il business to honour orders, and invariably I cover the o\·erhcad expense invohed by a 5 per cent. collection fee, \vhich is chargeable against t.ho peroon who reaps the benc!it not the person who gives the order. '

Mr. H. :\I. KING: It is an a"ignment subject to stamp duty.

:Ylr. :YlAHER : It is an assignment of a man's rights, of so ruuch of his earnings. I hate to f"cl that some logislatiYo sanction could be imposed upon me to prevent me from writing a cheque or giving an autho­·nt,) or an order to so1neone to receive a curtain sun1 of rnoney. lf a nut.n signs an order it is tantamount to signing a cheque, and if a man is bUffioientl0 responsible to sign a cheque on his own account at a bank, surely . he is sufliciently intelligent and responc1ble to be able to sign an order authol'lsing a firm to receive paymcut for goods which he has rceei ved ! Take ihc case of a firm supplying a separator to a dairy farmer. A dairv fa·rmor mav lack £15 or £20 iu cash for" the purchas·~ of the sepa­rator, but 1d1en it is reprcsented to him that for a sruall interest charge ho can ha vu the benefit of monthly m· quarterly paynwnLl at about £3 a rnonth, ~pread over :five or six month,, to discharge his obligation there is nothing \V'l'ong \Yith the syste111 tha't vern1its him to get it. ~l good many dairy fermers :Yo:1lcl find it extrernely irk;-orne to carry on 1f 1t were not for that system.

The Smm:nRY FOR AGRIC'CLTURE: They will not be prevented from doing that under this Bill.

[JI,Jr. Maher.

::\ir. ::\lAHER: Thcv "-ili be prcnnt<•d fron1 gi\~ing all order" ou a butter factory in payment for these obligations.

Tho SECRETAIW FOR AGRIC'CLT'CRF.: Xo.

:\fr. GoDFREY :\lonG.\:-; : For a pianola.

:VIr. ::\LAIIER: That i• an extreme case. Not manv dairvmen to-da,· are able to buv vianola::; 'U.nd glYe orders On their faC'torieS. As a matter of fact, some of the cluirymen in my own electorate are receiving k'>s than the basic wage for their yearly dfort. The purchase of a piano la ol' the eiJtry in to a la·rge obligation of that kind \Yould be• an extreme case. vVe must as-;urne that a dairy fanucr is justified in giving an order on his factory. He is not forced to do it; he elects to do it of his own free will. vVhy should we in1pose legislative rc--trictions on him in this way'

As tho Leader of the OpyJOsition has logi­cally pointed out, if it is right to impose thew~ legislative restrictions on dairy fan11ers, it is equallv right to impose them on the employee in the sugar-mill, or the cane­cutter, or tho shearer, or the sawrnilling employee, or the employee in any other industr.Y who finds it ncces::;ary to secure credit from time to time. The best safe­guard he can have in this rP-cpcct is freedom. Thi~ is an atten1pt, I think, to interfere with the liberty of the people. and I find it very difficult to bring rn,,·sdf to cast a Yotc in favour of snch a principle. InYolved in thjs is the whole tin1c-pay1nent plan. ~1any fanners buy and H'1l fanlls to-day on the time-payment plan. A ca'e may arise vdwrc a vPndor of a far !11 rf'1Ltircs the protcclion of a butter factory in con­npction with the obligations o£ a ptnchascr. Again, there are caS('S -..yherc dairy farmers purcha,c dairy mttle itnd haYe not the cash to meet immediately their full commitments. Thev issue orders on the butter factories. whic.·h giYC"'l a rrwasun' of ~ecurit v to th(~ Yenclor of the cattle. I haYc seen 'scores of snch in~t<:mc('S \\·here in flush of a season a dair...-,·Inan. finding hn ~:rood feed. wants Clll additional ten or fifteen cuws, and is able to purchase them on the monthly instalment plan through the butter fadon- lf it were not for his abilih to do so he \muld find it pxtrcrn0ly difficult to purchase• the cattle, and would not be able to extend his enter­prise and pro,per. \Ye arc on very clan­gc•rou~ grou11d, and until I have cxan1ined the Bill furtlwr to sec how far this m•casure seeks to go, I \Yithhold fmther comment. 1 do not like the principle inYolvcd, as it "as explained b:- the Minister.

Question-" That the rcsolntion (21-fr. IJu/tock's motion) be agreed to "-put and fJ'tS'Cd.

The House re,umed.

The CHAIR:ul:-; reported that the Com­mittee had come to a n ,olution.

IV solution agreed to.

F!HST HEADH~G.

The SECRET.\RY FOU AGRICCLTURF. (Hon. 1<'. \Y. Bulcock, TJ'Jrcoo) pre·ented tho Bill. and moved-

" That the Bill be now read a first ti1ne."

QuL•stion pnt and passed.

Second re'"] ing- o£ the Bill made an Order of the Day for to-morrm\'.

Inker·rnan Irrigation Board [19 SEPTEl\IBER.] (Rates and Charges) Bill. 243

1:'\KERi\IA:'\ IRRIGATIOX BOARD (HATES A:-JD CHARGES) BILL.

I:-~1TUTWK nr Cmll\HTTEE.

(Jlr. HanBon, IJaranrla, in the chair.)

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA:'\DS (Hon. P. Pease, H crb crt) [2.59 p.m.] : 1 In on~-

" That it is desirable that a Bill be introd ucc-d relating to the rates and charges of the Inkerman Irrigation Board duly constituted under 'The \Yatn Acts, 1926 to 1931 ' ; and for other purpose·~.''

The object of the Bill is to make better rnoYision for charges made by the Inkcrman Irrig<ltion Board for clcctricit.v supplies. Thu Bill 1nakes such cost;.;; a charge upon the land', together "ith all the improH•ments and crop·c thcrcon, of th0 )JOrwn to whom the electricity is Htp})liccl in priority to liC?ns under " Tile Liens on Cro]ls of Sugar Cane Act, of 1931," but sLtbject to anY lien relating to hun1gant nnder the ;unending Act of 1933. The water rates are already a first charge upon the lands, hut the rates for el0ctricity charges are not secun,d under the existing ~\cL lt is only right that the fanners -who n0\\7 control it shollld havo the sa1nc coutrol oYer clectricitv as thev 110\V have oYer -water. V "

:Yh. :VIOORE (Aubigny) [3 p.m.]: I can­not see much objection to this Bill, except the cxttcnsion of the principle that if the Governntent :"npply auything tJ1cy take a charg·c upon i.he land in priority to cvery­boclv el~<'. 1f th.' Govnnrm•nt baYo an -ent<;rprisc which supplies clect'l-icity I do not sec that tlwv arc entitled to a ciaim in priori t~.- to any L0dy oho su pp l~.~illf! the ~arr1e farmer. Because a boarcl happFns to be rnoro or less a goycnuncntal euterpri;:;:e I cannot H'C ,vhy it should be phtc,cd in a preferential position. I '}Uite rccogHise that "~hen it is a quc..;;tion of pun111ing water, and the jndividual ha:-:; rates to pa:v and jncurs a liabilit': to the CrmYn, the Cro,Yn tries to protec~ itself, but I 'vould like to know how far this principle is likely to Pxtend. First of all, it starb with water ·rates. then it goP-~ to furnig,cnts, and 1101v to electricit.v; and the etfcct is to place the ordinarv traJer SUJ1lllying goods or S(~l'YlCC'S In ~1. continuously ·::orse position. It will reach the point whcTc traders supph·ing goods or son-ices to the farmers in that area will insi:3t upon being paid cash, rather than rank fourth or fifth for purpoecs of payment. The GoYcrnmcnt arc not justified in asking to bc pI a red in a better position than any section in the communitv. The Govern­ment arc not entitled to 'take undue risks with public money, but if they do take undue risks, what justification have they for placing themseh-es on a preferential basis? In a Bill svonsored by the Sccretwry for Agriculture and discussed to-day, the Go­vernment nre in::;isting that any order made by the Crown must be honoured bv the cHrcrtor.s of a clairy association whcthe1: they like it or not. At the same time the Go­vernment C'XJWct the ordinary tradeT to take all the ri:-ks of business and to rank in an inferior position to that of the Crown when it comes to a question of payment for goods or scryices. It seems to me that the Go­vernment arc unduly protecting themselves, instead of taking the precautions that the ordinary trader has to take. It is entirelv wrong io allow an instrumentality having a

compkte monopoly to aYoid makino- ordi­nary l)usincss inYetstigatlons before ~upply­ing goods or services and then to bo placed in a superior position to all other creditors. I do not altogether agree "ith tlw Bill, but I realise that it is n1crd,· C''(tPnding the principle already adopted regarding 'fumi­gnnts and \Yater. 1\everthelc::;.:s, it is under­nlining the ,,,hole basis of private busine~s, and places privatt' tradr•rs in a disadvanta­geous j){Ji3ltion.

i\Ir. DEACOX (Cunningharn) [3.6 p.m.]: It appears that hon. members will haYo to eec thie Bill in print in order to ascertain its effect, Llccausc the l\Iiniske has put for­\Yard hanllv anv reason •hv it is dcsi1·able to introduce it. I dare say that we shall find that it will gi.-e the 1\linistcr more twwer tban \VC anticipate. Ko ~rood reason has been put forward b.- the l\linistcr why the Bill shonld be brought in, nor <tn:.-thing said as to the good t}Jat \Yill :re:-;ult frorn its operatioll.s. The lnkerrnan irrigation ~·~hcu1c been a. very costly exporirnent for the .. An onorrnons arnount of moue,, has wasted there, principally as a result of the rnaladministration of the LalJoar C:ovcrnrnent.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LAKDS: I\ot this Government.

rlfr. DE"\l'O"': After all this Gm-ern­rrls:>Ht is the successor of pl:OYious Labour Go1·ernrnents. \Vhen on the public plat­fonn ITl0nllJc-rs of this GoYennnent have boosled that they arc still the same old La.l)()~_u· .P~rt:'· and they ha Ye spoken proudly of wnat their predecessors did. Thev sav '· \Yn <:ne going. on in the good old ~:\·ay.;' If they [W on m the good old wav they followec! 111 reg-ard to Inkcrman it .,:ill co~t rh. is State a trcn1endous a1nou~t of money ' It hout a~-(V l'Psult. The hngo expenditure of monc~- that hns occnrred in the Inkerman irrigaii~n schOI?JC, 'Yithont showi11g any good result, 1s tragic. \Ve want to know from the :\Iinistcr whether there is anv intention on. his part to go on in the goo~(l old way "ithout showin, any result for~ it.

TlF~ SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LA~DS: Is that "-hat you did'

:\Ir. DEACCX: Ko. The SECnE'LiRY FOR Pl:BLJO LA~m;, : IV e will

not do anythiug of that sort.

}Ir. DEACON: The hon. gentleman may nut. Is not the .:\Tini~ter a. 1ncn1ber o£ a C01-ernment who succeeded other Labour GovcrnmcntF, haYing the~ sa1ne ideas and opinions . and beliefs? Row is he ea pable of ln1~,wmg- whether he is doing right or wrong: I gn·e the hon. gent.lcrnan credit for h':ving tho ]JO'it of intentions, but what has h1s pctrty done m the past? The JHin­ister may do just as badly. I can only hopo that he will do better. I c-tn assm·e hm that he can rolv on members of the Oppmition to giYe l;im all the a'·'·istance thE'y possiblv can in i1nprovinrr his n1casure and that tlul.t as~ist:nw(~ will bf~ n1ore genuin~ and our ach·ico will be better than he wiJI get fron1 his own party.

::'clr. GODFREY l\IORGAI\ (Murilla) [3.11 p.m.]: ::\Iy objection to this measure is that I foe! that its operation ma-·. amount to a form of repudiation. At tho present time the first charge on the Inkerman lands is the cost <;f the fumigants, and the second the. elect ne power dues, whilst any private mdll'tclual or trader who has lent money to

Mr. Morgan.]

244 Townsville Water, Etc., [ASSE:\IBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

the settlers comes third. The Minister i3 now introducing f1 Bill \\hich "·ill have the efl'cct of placing those poop le fourth instead of third. That mity be all right as to fntme tran actions, but I think it is quite wrong to ttpply it to past trans­actions. To take a way from those people the rie:lit thev have at present would bo rernuliat1on o{ a. serious Ilaturo. T'he Min­ister should not introduce a Bill that will g·ive the Government priority OYer all liens thnt may be in operation at the present time. I have no objection whateYcr to giving the Gonrnnwnt the prior right in futuro, but I clo obj cct to their taking a preferential posi­tion o\·er already existing creditors. The hon. gentleman in charge of the Bill would be well advised to accept an amendment of that cl,wsc, at any rate. I shall reserve furt.her comments until I see it, although I do know the contcnto of the Bill to some extent.

Quc,tion-" That the resolution (Jir. I>tnsr:'.~ motion) be agreed to"- put and pasc.ed.

The House resumed. The CnAimiAc-1 reported that the Com­

mittee had come to a rcso:ution. Resolution agreed to.

FmsT READING.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, Hcrbcrt) presented the Bill, and mm·ed-

" That the Bill be now road a first tin1e."

Question put and passed.

Second reading of the Bill mado an Order of the Day for to-morrm,·.

TOIY="SVILI.E WATER ArTliORITY (W \TERWORKS APPROVAL) ACT Al\IEKDC\lENT BILL.

I)!lTIATION IN C01DflTTEE.

(Jir. Hw' on, Bu, mula, in the chair.)

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC L U'\DS (Hon. P. Pease, H erlnrl) : I move--

" That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced to amPnd 'The Townsvillo \Yatr•r Authority (\\" aterworks Am1roval) Aci of 1926 ' in a certain particular."

Tho position is that when tlw original Bill \Yas fran1ed there ''7 as inserted in it an indPmnitv clause similar to that in other enactnwrits. but it is now found that the wording of the section protf~Cts the council or anv conirPctor who works under the provisi.ons of the Act from any liability in c0rtain r0spccts. Rec,-ontly flood da1nagc occurred in "\Yorks carriPd out under this l1d at To•. nsYille. An accident took place and considerable damage resulted. A nnmbcr of \Yorkmen lost valuable tools. \Yl1cn the ma,tter was taken before a court of ju~ti'~A it, was found that unrlcr the inclmunity clause, as set ont in the original Act. ihe lo er, had no ridJh. \YhatcYcr right' thcv ma;· have had under ihc \Yorkcrs' Compensation Ach and the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Act \Ye re CJ bc.:olntel:~ abrogated. Th( an;cncllng Bill sedcs only to n•medy this cJ, feet.

:\Ir. MoonE: Is it made retrospecti,-e?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: There is no rdrospcctivity.

[Mr. Morgan.

J\Ir. :\IOORE (tt~bigny) [3.18 p.m.J: I do nnt 'cc any obji><,tion to the BilL .b a n1attcr of fact, it \Yas not recogni:~cd when the present Act went through that this gcncraJ indcn1nity clause \YOuld go a~ far as it has done, and certa-in persons hayo mriercd, but it seems to be hardly just that a particubr section of the community should be singl.od out for attention \Yhcn the Act is being amended.

Sect ion 4 of !he principal Act is all-embrac· ing. It provides that no one shall be Pntitled to any con1pensation in respect of any damage, loss, or expense occasioned from the construction of \vorking- of the \vatcnc orks. It has been discoYercd that cerhin employees of the TownsYille water auihoritv were unable to obtain compen,ation for loss that they suil'crecl, and th<' Bill has been inlro~ elm c-d to giyc them thu same rights as are enjoyed by other sections of the community. I remPrnber that when the Bill wa-, gomg throug·h Parliament in 1926 the question was raised as to ,. hether certain pL'ople would be deprived of their riparian rig·hts-as to whether certain peoplC' who had rmrehased and paicl for certain v;,ratcr rigl1t~ WPrc to Le denied those rights altogether. I mm·ed an a1ncndment dc>aling \\ ith the matter, and so thr~ \Yards, " Subject always lo the para­Jnount rights of the Comn1issioner of I n·jga­tion and \Yatl'r Supr1ly" ere included. That gaye the people concerned the rrgl:t to exercise th0 power:-:; cont::uncc1 H1 the Irn­rration Ads. It meant that if there wa~ any ~listurbanco of their riparian rights the Tm' nsYillo water authoritv woulcl havo to cornpen,"ate them. If Ul~\-· amcndrncnt, had not lwen accepted these people \Yould Jwve bren dcpri'T'd of rights in IHO},nrt;.T that they had purchased from the Cro,m. The indcmnitv section proYide:3 that 1~0 rnatter what c1a'rnago or lo~s rnay accrue t0 the indi,-iclual through the action of the J'owns­Yille \valer anthori(y thev shall not he able to scr·ul'C any <:ornpcTisation whatc',·cr. These people thus ·,ye-re dcpriYC'd of their connnon law r-io'ht that is aYailab]c to [Ul'T othe'" citizen .. -' ~_A_ fiood occnrred and a cert'ain Pec­tion of t1Je con1mnnity:- suffered los<;;. and darnasre, bnt thcv were unaLle to obtain anv ~-ompcn~'ltion' \Yhatcvcr. They 'vould ha~·e been able lo do so had they been able to C''Ccrc·is.C' their ordinarv eoiTI!· on la\V right~. The GoYcrmncnt l11~YC re_~ognised that llwy snficrecl an injustice. and have introduced this Bill to remedy the matter f;O far ac; that particular f::ertion of the com­nlnnih- is concen1Pd. But \Yhv "honid this sectio1~ be sing-led out? If the,;. people ha Ye suffprcd an injustice nnder an Art paf'~cd in 1926, then other people wa'' a ]eo mffer an inju~tice by reason of ]oss or da!nago that n1av be {'ausccl bv the Towns,-illn \Yater ant.horitv. Thcv '":ill not be able to 'ecurc any cnn;p"n,ation at all. The Bill tlwrcfore hardlv p;ocs far enough. If you sa~v to one s0rtion of ihP ronHnunitv, " \Y c rr~ .Jgnisc thnt von ha,-c suffered a~ lnjn~tire, an(1 vve will ~Iter that position so f:1T ns ·vve ran eo that th0re will be uo injustice ill the futnrP," then the ~'a1no should be said to all other sections of the community who may s~dfPr a si1nilar Joss or darnage. If another SPction of the conu:nnnity 1s IiabJe to ]o:;~ or darnap;P through the operation of nw water authority. then it alm shonld be in a position to npply to the courts for compensation. The jndiYiduals

Hotel Theodore Lease [19 SEPTEMBER.] Enabling Bill. 245

who are snbjoct to the principal Act are deprived of their connnon law rights which arc a\·ailable to other members of the com­rnunit:'i-~, and tl1e Goyornrncnt arc not justi­fied in amending the Act to protect only one section of the conrmunitv. Certain other individuals \vi!! still l1e unable to claim com­pcn"ation for d:unage arising frorn care]e1's­noso on the part of the water authority. The GnYernmcnt arc quite preparc(1 to pro­tect owe section o£ the community, but they insist that another section of the con1rnunity mu t take the ri,k. lf the principle of the Bill is right for ono section then it is right for all sections. If it is right that an ordinary constructin~ authorit:v shall be liable for loss or damage arjsing out of negligence 01' carelessness then the rJ'o \ IlSYille water authority should also bo subject to the same law. \Yhv should the Townsvillc> water authority be phcccl in a different category from other people, and "·hy should ono section of the con1n1nnity bo giv0n n pro­tection that is denied to another section of the COD1ll1Ullity?

Question-" 'Ihat the resolution (J£r. Pease'"' motion) be agrerd to ''-put and rms<.;:ed.

The House rc-umccl. The CH.nmrAx rcportcd that the Com­

n1ittee had como to a resolution. Resolution .ag1·eed to.

lfiRST READIXG.

The SECRET~\RY FOH :PUBLIC LA'JDS (Hon. P. Peace, ll crbcrt) prPscntcd the Bill, ancl mm·cd--

" That the Bill be now read a first time."

Qu-"stion put and passed. Second reading of the Bill made an Order

of the Day for to-morrow.

HOTEL THEODORE LEASE E:'\~\.BLI'JG BILL.

IxrTHTIOx IN CoM2\IlTTEE.

(J£r. Hunson, JJuranda, in the chair.)

The SECRETAEY FOR PUBLIC LAXDS (l-Ion. P. l'casc, Herbri'l) [3.27 p.m.]: l ll10VC--

" Tlmt it is desirable that a Bill bo introduced to enable th0 Commissioner of Irrigation a11d vYatcr Supply to lease the hotel known as ' The Hotel Theo­dore,' to provide that the lessee thereof shall be a licen oerl victualler under the Liquor Acts, and for other purr)oscs."

This is another formal Bill. The motion really c•xplains the Bill itself. Under tho provisions of the Irrigation and vVater Snpplv Acts an accommodfLtion house was erectc~l at .Theoclore. In May, 1930, this accommodation hou>'e. which was still under the Irrigation and \Yetter Supply Acts, was com·erted into a hotel. Previously this Act gaYc the Cornruissioner power to n1anage the hotel, but no power to lease it. It is con­sidered that the presEmt arrangement, wherchy the present occupant-that is, the nutnagl're"s-is ans•.vcra blo to the Comrrris­f.ioncr is not satisfactory, and the object of this Bill is to rectify this anomaly. It is proposed to take steps to improve the accom­modation for travellers at Thcodore. but without this Bill the Commissioner would be callc<l npon to furnid1 all the neccssar2 mone;· and still carry on as the controller

of the hotel. That is not desired. The intc~tion is to lease the hotel.

:\fr. GODFREY ::\IORG.IN: Will it then be entircb· m1dcr the same conditions as any other l10tel in the State?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: At the present time it is not, but when this Bill becomes law it will.

At 3.29 run., Mt·. GLEDSO){ (lpswir-h), o11e of tho panel

of Tc1nporary Chalnnen, rclicycd the Chair­rnan in the chair.

::Yir. ::\IOORE (A ubigny) This Bill pro-vides a further illmta.tion of how the occuiHtnts of the Treasury benc-hes desire to get a wa:: from the IIOlicy of the Labour Pa1 ty in connection 1vith liquor l'eforrn­namely, State trading with a \ iew to ulti­mate prohibition. This is the ono hotel in all the State that is coutrollecl exclu,ivoly bv the Government, and the Government want to lease it to someone else. It is significant that this is the Ja,t of the State enterprise, which were established by the previous Labour Administration with such a flourioh of trurnpek vV e were told when thcv were introduced that the Government iutc~nded to divert the profits into the pockeLs of the people instead of into the pockl'ts of a few of the people. Hon. mem­bers opposite held out what advantages won! cl accrue to the taxpayer, . fmm this policv. and how taxation would be reduced. After a trial of State enterprises this is the la't one ihat exists, and notwithstanding the plank of the Lal1our p,nty of Shtte liquor trading 'vith a YiP\V to ultiu1ate prohibition, the GoYernrnent arc now seeking to sell the lca:'lc to sorncone else. The remarkable thing to me is that after having proved to them­seh·e·c how unsuccessful these State enter­prises arc, members of the Government still retain tlw .socialistic plank of their platform and advocate it at election time, extolling the benefits to bo doriv<•cl tiH•refrom.

:'c;r. ·WATERS: \Yhat arc you worrying about?

Mr. MOORE: I am not worrying, Hon. members opposite should worry for being such hypocrites.

::Ylr. vYurms : I rise to a point of or-der, Mr. Gloclson. The Lo:~dor of the Opposi­tion has referred to hon. mcrr1bcrs on this side as " hypocrites." That rernark is ofien­sive to me and I ask that the hon. member withdraw.

Mr. ~IOORE: I did not mean to be per­sonally ofl'ensivo to the hon. member, but when his platform ach·ocates State c'ontrol with a view to prohibition and he does not adhere to that platform, then I clo not know what descriptio11 can be given to his conduct. vVe remember how the Labour Party tried tho experim0nt of Stete sawmills, which they claimed would r<·Lluco the price of building. But we recall that the Labour Government abolished that ancl other ontcr]lrises because they found that their socialistic policy had failed. In those circumstances, why do hon. mem­bers OJ!llc .. ite at election time aclYocate tho nationalisation of l}anking and everything­else?

Tlw SECRET.IHY FOR Pc:nr.rc L~NDS : There is nothing about that in the Bill.

::\fr. ::\IOORE: But tho same principle is there. The hon. gentleman says that ho

JJh. JJJ oar e.]

246 Hotel Theodore Lease [ASSEMBLY.] Enabling Bill.

agrees with the principle of State trading and his o»n policy refers to State trading with a Hew to prohibition. How far olf the " Yiow " is, goodness only knows ! It is like the objective of the Labour Party; it m>ty be put into practice in 100 years' time or 300 years' time.

JUr. \Y ATERS: It is a good bogey for you to use.

Mr. MOORE: \Ye have no necessity to use bogies; wo need onl7 refer to what the Labour Government have t1ctually done.

Mr. \Y.ITEHS: That is "hY the Queensland Labour candidates have secured a majority in the Senate.

Mr. l\IOO.RE: The hon. member is talk­ing tnuch too soon. There is uothing Inuch to crO'iV a bout in Labour's position in Queens­land at the pi-e·-cnt time.

I do not object to the Government getting rid of all tlH .c Strcte onterprisc•s, because i!lC L-{oYernnH.:nt ahvays cornpcto on unfair terms v;ith private business. I do not object to the Dill, but I want the people of Queens­bud to uuclcrst;t"d that the ach-ocacy of hon. mcr>tbers oppooito outside this Chamber undergoc.:; a 1·adical change when they are faced \Yith the problcn1s of govel'lHncnt. Having rcco"nisod that tho principle is wrong, the ~.linister is quite right to do as he is doing. 1\ly main objection is to the fact that he and his co!luagues will con­tinue to humbug the people outside.

::\Ir. DEACON (Cunningham) [3.35 !Lm.]: This is a 111easurc on vvhich I can congratu­late the ~lini.·"ter, for it is a. clear indication to me that the hon. gentlcmall has seen tho error of l1 is party's v. ays and i~ no\Y con­vincccl that the capitalist syc·tmn of society is not a::. black as tho hon. gcntlen1an at one tinw belien•d it to be. \\' o ren1on1ber how the Thcodorc ''C'1t1enwnt \Vas ono of the n1ost cxtra-;-agaHt YC'niurr•s oYer undertaken by

· La.bour Government. It seemed to lw the wish to establish n settlement quite regardlc of oxpcu~e, and off-hand it is dii-ficult to say just how much money was \VaSLl'd. 1 know -,vhen tho :\loore Govern­mtmt took control, the building knmn1 as " The liotcl Thcodoro " \vas leased as a boanling-houso. No liccn~ed victualler's license was available, although probably there >Yvre some unlicensed hotels on the settlement. (Laughter.) I think a fair arnouut o£ loss \vill be suffered on th8 tran~a.ction, nevertheless I a,groc \Yith the Minister that is the best thing to do.

Thi· SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIC LAXDS : vVhy didn't yott do it?

1\lr. DE.ACON: It was leased as a board­ing-lJOusc. In my time had they boeu able to get a. lic<msc quickly it would have heen leased. I congratulate the Minister on his return to the ways of capitalism and his determination to get rid of a bad bargain.

:Mr. WIENHOLT (Fassifcrn) [3.37 p.m.]: I have listened to the explanation offened by the JYiinister, but I am not quite sure >Ylwt tl1u w<act position of the hotel is at tho present time. I unde-rstood the hon. Minister to say it was only an accommoda­tion hou-c-. but. if it is leased, will it now become licensed ?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : It has not a license at the present time.

::\fr. WIE~HOL'I': Does that not raise the whole liquor question? My views entirely

[Mr. 1Hoore.

favour temperance, but I realise that licomed victuallers have rights, and I have nevm· desired that they should be treated unfairly. If this is a cas<' of a hotci that is not licensed, and 1s now going to become a licensed victualler's hotel, then that proceccliug must conflict >Yith my tem­perance vie1.vs. If it "'\ve-re already a bcensed hotel, coutrollod by the Commissioner of Irrigation and Water Supply, and the Min­ioter desired to lease it to a private con­cern, I vvould uot, perhaps. object; but I do emphatically object to startiug an alto­gether new lic2nscd victuallcr'cl hoteL I deqir<e to ask the Minister if a vote of the residents in the neighbourhood of Theoclorc has been takon? Have they been comnlted as to whPther there should be a liconsLd vic­tualler's hotel in Theodore or not'!

The SECRETAHY FOR PUBLIO LANDS : ::\' o, not at Theodore.

::\Ir. WIE.:'\HOL'I': I am not in fa your of starting a now liccnsl:d hotel there in this way.

J\fr. GODFREY .::\IORGAK (Jturi!/a) [3.40 p.m.]: I desire to lear!1 from tho .Yiin­istor whether the IntroductiOn of tins Bill will ncecssitate an alteration of the Liquor Acts. Is it the intention of the Minister to place this lwtel. which is at present under the colltrol of the .Con1mis::;ioner of Irrigu­tion and \Yater Supply, in such a way that it can b8 leased to ~OlllC individual?

The SECUET.IRY FOH PUBLIC L.l::-iDS: Exactly the same as the hotel at Babinda.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAC\f: And it will conform to the regulations that a]Iply to auy hotel in existence at the present time?

The SECRF.T,IRY FOR PuBLIC LAxm~: 'l'hat is so.

Mr. GODFREY ::\IORGAN: I desire to congratulate the J\linistor and thl' Labour Gon_'rHnJcllt on the change of Yicw indicated in this Bill. It is not often l am able to congra tulatP the Secretary for Public Lands o-r the Government, but I do so on this occasion. This Dill demonstrates that the/ hav-e abandoned all thought of State cnter­priSl'S; ;wd no doubt the people of Queene­land will be delighted to learn that thet·e IS no political party in this State thlt desires to iutrocluce State enterprises. Past expen­('IICC alrhouo-h costlv to the pcoplc of Que~nsland, i~ better than experience gainetl in any other way.

The SEcHETARY FOR PUBLIC LA::-iDS: Noth­ing has been lost iu this industry.

Mr. GODYREY l1d0RGAN: There was a loss of £5,000,000 on State enterprises estab­lished dlHing the period of the Labour regime from 1915 to 1929.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIO LANDS : Thet·e was more than £5,000,000 profit derived from the Commonwealth Bank and State Insurance.

l\Ir. v\'. T. KrxG: We ne,·er lost £5,000,000.

l\lr. GODFREY MORGA~: The SLte Insurance Offlcn is in a different category.

The SECRET.\RY FOR PT;BLIC LANDS: vV e mu do a lot of rnonev in the Babinda State Hotel. "

1\fr. GODFREY YIORGA)[: The lo"s on State enterprises does not amount to quite £5.000,000, but the.t frgure is near enough. \ pproxirnatcly £5,000.000 has been added to

the national debt, which means that not

Hotel Theodm·e Lease [19 SEPTEMBER.] Enabling Bill. 247

only the people of to-da0- but also those who are unborn will be called upon to pay it.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC L.\ND~: In the same way as we arc called upon to pay £80.000 a year as a result of your railway sup0rannuation scheme.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAN: I accept the full n•spcmsibility and ahvays will do so. I will look upon it as one of the bc•st mea­sures introduced during the period that I was a, nwn1ber of the GoYcrnrnPnt. I aru not rcpnJiating tho ::<chcrnc. I arn proud of n1v association \Yith it. I vvas sorrv that it wd.s ever abolished. It should noYel: have been.

The SECRETARY FOR PTTRLIC L.\};DS : It \Vould have cost £10,000,0-80

The TK\:lPOlURY CHAIR::YIAN: Order!

.:\Ir. GODFREY MORGAN: The hon. gPntleman is leading nH~ on by interjecting. \Ylwn we came into power \VC found it nr.ccssary to abolish all the State enter­prises, but. notwithstanding, this one owe larnb rernains.

.:\h. CLAYTON (TT'irle nay) [3.45 p.rn.]: I arn uot g'Oin[( to offer an.v objection to the intmduction. of this Bill. but. hon. mr•m­bers on this sic!e will b,, inten•sted to sec the clauses, particularly the regulations clause. It is frequently found that tho posi­tion is then very different from the very simple proposal which the Bill appeared to bo on its introduction. It is pleasing to know that, at least. we• have scPn the end of the Shto enterprises, hut the Gm-ernment still contend that thev e,},oulcl move in the direction of nationali:ation of industrv. It would appear that on the ono hand th;,_. are trying to di::~pose of an indu~~try, and on the other their policy is one of nationalisa­tjon. The los;;;{~s in connection with State cntrrprisC's in QucPnsland an1ounted to about £4,400,000. They hac! a colo,sal impudence to mount the platform and advo­cate the nationalisation of banking. On one occasion there ·were seventy-two State butcher shops; after the lapse of fourteen y, ars the number wa'·· reduced to three or four. Had thev been ab~e to secure the control of banking. tlwv \Yould haYe closed do\\'Il as manv banks or branches of banks as they did biit.chcr shops. This would have been a very f'orious '!natter for Australia.

With rcfrard to their policy in the liquor trade, it would appear that they arc advo­< ates of State control. Here. howeYcr. thev bring forward a Bill \vhic-h take, a hotel from under State control and hands it oyer to printte ontcrnriS<'. It is knmYn that thev wcro succesf'ful 111 running the BaLincl~t State Hotel. but it must not be forgotten that in the management of that hotel the} did not compete fairl 0• with private enter­prise. They debarred anot,hcr indiYidwd frorn holding a licPnsc \;rithin a certain mi:cafrO of that hotr•l. They were thus able to make a success of it. The hon. member for Fmsifcrn has obtained the interesting information ft-om the Secretarv for Public Lands that. a lic0nst~ is to be t'aken in con­nection \Yith this hotel. and that thev do not intend to apply the clauses contained in the Liquor Acts in connection \Yith this matter.

The SECRETARY FOil Punuc L.\};DS: I never said that.

:\h-. CLA YTOX: There is an instance of the Government taking upon themselves the

povYcr to do a certain thing without con­sulting the wishes of the people in the area or taking a Yote of such people.

The SEcHF:TAHY FOH Prnuc LAXDS: I rise to a point of m·dor. I did not say wo wero not 1roing to apply the provisions of the Liquor Acts to that hotel.

1\Ir. CLAYTON: The hon. frentleman told us that there would be no poll taken m eonnection 'iYith this licensC'.

'rho SECTIETAHY FOH Pc;BLIC LA;.;ns: Xo. I said i hero had not been anv poll taken up till now. '

J\fr. CLAYTON: I stand corrected. The J\1inist0r has told u .. ; that thoro has bc'on no poll takon i!l connr~tion with th:·~ n1atLer, and T a1n go1ng to watch the Bill yerv care­fully to sec if any proYisiun is n1a·;1c for the takin1r of a poll in the futuro. I .-cnture to sav that \Yh('n the Bill cornec: alono- it will be found that the }linisto~· i" ;nly quibbling at the prewnt time.

The TKVrPOH.ARY CIL\.TR\IAN: Order f The hnn. mcruher is not i:n order in ~aying that the ~linister 1~.; q11iLbliHg .

:YII-. CLAYTOX: Very woll, I ,vill not Fay thnt ]J'P 'vas quibbling·, but I do not tltillk he \Yas g~Ying me• facts whf'll he replied to rn 0• qurr.'. I shall \Yatch the Dill Yery closc~ly. Seeing that this is an attcn1pt to ge~ rid of another State ent0rprlse, I mn not gou1g to oppo~c the~ re~olution.

Mr. COSTELLO (CrtrnarTon) [3.50 p.m.]: .\ lhis Bill ain1s to do awav with another piPcc of State trading I ani' not going to oppose it. I mll!crstand that the hotel is to bo ~old as a going conrcrn, and that the sale will be adn1rtisod in the pre,s. I hope lhat the sale will l'c advertised in papers circulating in Theodorc and di::·trict before auv contract is entered into or t0nder is aeCcptcd. La,.t year tbc Gcn-ernrn-cnt dis­posed of tl1oir State stores on soldier settle­ments. They sold approximatclv £10,000 worth of Government a 'sPiel for ·£4,000 on payment of a deposit of 5 per cent. The only adYerti~ornent in connccti0n -with that sale was a small paragraph in tho " Daily Stan­dard" in Brisba11e. I hotw that thP :VIinistcr will sit up and take some notice and sec that the sale of the hotel at Thcorlore gets -due publicity in thc1 local prO'·' so that the people intcrestPd v·ill haYc an opportunity of com­peting for the lict'nse. lea~c. and goodwill of the hotel. \Ye know that State enterprises praYed a ghastly experin1ent to Qnccn~1and, that they cost this Shtc £5,000,000. practi~ callv the whole of which has been lost. rtnd that we shall continnc to pay taxation in connection \Yith this expc,riJncnt :-.o long as \Ye arc a State'. ~'he very people re-:pon:-:iibk for StRtc cnicrpnsc:-~ \V('rt~ pr('parcd to fUtJ-·

port ::\Ir. Scullin and Mr. Lang--Thc SECUcT.\UY FOH PT:BLIC LANDS : That

is not in this Bill.

}Ir. COSTELLO: 1\fr. Gl0dson is in charge of the CornrnithY', and \vith him r<'sts the jJO\YPr to call n1c t-'o order, if necessary. The Ycry pr011le rnsponsible for State entcr­)ll'i"cs allied thern.,eh-cs \Yith Mr. SculFn and :Nir. Lang in an endPaYOUl' to nation~liise banking, but the wi--e people of the .day cast. their Yotrs against tho rlesires of :1Ir. Sc-ullin and Mr. La ng to take their ca.sh. \Ye \Yant no rnoro State enterprises in this country. Leave thc-.p n!attr>rs to priv<Jtf' cntcrpri~c, and the rwop!e will be Yen· satisfied indeed. J u~t one nwro \Yord : I do not v.;ant any

Mr. Costello.]

248 Land Tax Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

more sale, like the sale of tho State stores on soldier settlements last Year when the stores at A1nicns, Beerbnrru;u, and Gunno­win, worth £10,000, were sold for £4,000 on a 5 per cent. deposit.

Question-" That Pea.oe'.1 motion) be passed.

The IIonse resumed.

the resolution agreed to ''-put

(Jlr. and

The TE}!PORARY CHAIRi\IAN reported that the Committee had come to a resolution.

Resolution agreed to.

FIRST RE.'.DIKG.

The SECRETAHY FOR PuBLIC LANDS (Hon. l'. l'ea:oc, Herbut) presented the Bill, and JllOYed·-

" That the Bill bo now road a first tin1e."

Question put and pa' sod.

Second reading of the Bill made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

LA~D TAX ACT Ai\1ENDMENT BILL.

SECOKD READING.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­ST!lUCTION (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Drerner) [3.55 p.m.]: I move-

" 'l'hat the Bill be now read a second time."

After the nry full debate we had on the introductory stage :yesterday no further coln­ment will be necccsary.

Mr. ::\foam: \Vill you toll us something about it?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STROC'l'IO~: \Vhen the 'Treasurer com­piled his estimate of receipts for the present firmncial year and m ado a sta tomont to the Loan Council he included the amount that is expecl(•d to be raised by this ;;upee land tax.

Consequently, it is very necossaTy that tlns Bill bo passed so that the Treasurer's revenue expectations should be realised, otheewise it may be said that the Govern­ment have no dP,iro to keep faith with the Loan Council on this point. It is part of the revenue a.nticipated eluTing the yoar, and for that reason the Bill is necessary.

The reason or justification for a land tax is well known, and there is an anticipated revenue of £110,000 from this source. That is a.u arnount of rnonoy that the rrroasurcr cannot in these trying times afford to forgo. A prcYious Treasurer-not a Treasurer of a Labour Government-speaking on this very measure, said the situation demanded that the super land tax should be imposed for that particular financial yea.r, and the position was that it ·was expected that the State would not be able to meet its expendi­ture out of revenue. Therefore, in his opinion, all possible revenue that could be obtained should be obtained. He (the late Trcasm·er) regretted the circumstances, but because of the threatened dof1cit ho was obliged to reimpose the super land tax for that yeaT. The same may be srtid of this linancial year. It is expected that there will be a dc[icit. For that reason it is felt it would not be right for the Sta to to forgo that taxation.

[ll1r. Costello.

Mr. RUSSELL (Hamilton) [3.57 p.m.]: If the only justification for this Bill was, as the Minister explained, the a hwlutc necessity of raising £110,000, one might feel a little more sympathetic \1ith the Gm·ern­ment. but we have landed oursch-es in a rnost~ unfortunate position, that having put into eift'Ct a tax of au en1ergency nature for twdYe months only it has been re­Pnacted "".rca.r after vear and no serious cffo1·t has lice,;' made to, romoye it. If the Go­' crnmeut held tho l)clicf they say they do about land, that lf', if thev are of the epinion th t this unearned increment should be gradually appropriated b:; the Govern­ment, then their plan wo1dd be to increase f1o rate of trrx a11cl do awa.y with the snpcr tax altogether. They either believe lhat the present tax is high enough or they think that the irnposition of a Hll1l:r land tax will to FCJillO extent blind the e'ectors into believ­ing that it is rncrely a trn1porary tax, notM \Vithstanding that it has now a;;:srn1cd an air of permanency ancl must be looked upon as part and parcel of the land tax struck iE the first instance. I a gTec with the Troa~ surer that wo must try to balance our budget, but onr friends opposite have no inteni.io11 of doing that bccau~c, as already foreshadowed, 1hore \Yil! be a big delicit ._e;ain this year.

The SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC IXS-;"RUCTION : 1'\othing like the deficit vour Government \vcre rPspon;:;;ib1e for. "

l\lr. RUSSELL: The average deficit of the hon. uu~tnbor's GoYornrnent is a. greater aYeragc than our deficits.

The SEcRETARY FOB PGBLIC IxsTRGCTION : 'l'hctt is not correct.

1\lr. RUSSELL: You, l\lr. Speaker, will n-1t allow mo to discus" that question just no\\·. Yesterday the Minister said that the argnrncnts for and agairtst the irnposition of rt la!H:J tax had been worn threadl)at'C. The) arc I hrcadhare. IV e have all cndortyourcd to show the injustice of the land tax while the- Labonr Party, as we all know, are strong rtch·oca.tcs of land ta'<ation and land nation~ lisaljon. Those arguments have been wnn1 threadbare and the subject has been discussed frorll eYory angle" Nevottheless, the t.:=u.: is unjustiGcd to-day and is bearing Yery lH~<1Yi1y on industry.

\Ve know that the tax was first introduced for the main pnrpose of breaking Ut1 the large estate,., and inducing c1o~cr sottlomcnt 1

but it has failed to achieYe that objective. It has come to be regarded as roYonue tax~-as n rncans of dragging a few more shillings out of tho pockets of the taxpayers. It is purely a tax on industry, on capital, on assets. If its incidence ccere similar to that of income tax--if it were a tax on income or a tax on the rc•sults of industry­there could not be Yery much objection to it, but as it is imposed at present it inflicts an exceedingly heayy burden on capital and assets, to the extent that business people, pastoralists. manufacturers, and others arc harshly afTectcd. Evidently the La hour Prtrty haYe gone ·omcwhat cool on their original idea of expropriating this unearned increment hecau ,c the tax has stopped at a c·ertain rate. I presume they found that the tax did not act in the way they thought. At nil events, I cannot sec any large estates in Queen street broken up by the tax, and ,·pry few estates in the country have bcea affected in that \Yay. Nevertheless, we know

Land Tax Act [19 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 249'

that large freehold properties are feeling the burdc•n very severely, and the Govern­ment should tako early steps to mitigate the senrity of the tax. I should like to 'ee the tax abolished, but I admit that it would be too drastic a change to expect in the '""isting state of our finances. Some effort should be made to reduce the tax yearly uutil it is eventually wiped out. The M ooro GonrmnP11t had in mind the eventual aboli­tion of this tax, helievi11g that it was unjust. and for one year the t<Lx was not i1nposecl.

Queensland is a country of vast primary re .eurccs, and our first lino of attack on tlw prPseut dcpl'('S~iion is Hw fullc;;t pos.~;ible den,lopmcnt of our primary industries. \Y o lDust free tbosf: industries frorn taxation vdwrcn:~r "·c possibl.v can, expecting those interested in primary industries to boar their fair share oi ta'Cation. I do cerlciuly think that the incidence of this tax is sNiouslv affecting: smnc 1n·irnary industriP>. Tn tha~t connection tho hon. ntea1ber for Fas;:;ifrn·n sho1n:'d the t0rrible bnrden that is belng borne to-day by the cattle indn~tr~7 , an indus­trv that eventually mnst become the St•concl mcht important iilclnstry in Queensland if our anticipations with rPgard to chilled rneat arc realised. \Ye hnvc rnade a com­rnenccrncnt in this business, and we should remove every obstade that impedes pro­grf'> ~. \"'.ye haYO [1 il'CD18IldOUS C0111petition to face. notably from Argentina, where the industry has been Ycry well developed on cheap land, and "\Vhf're a Y(·r,y ra11id transit to the nHtrkets and the production of a c1as~ of cattle emincntlv wit able for the British public have phccci the indmtr_v on a highly satisfactory footing. \Ye have those handJ­caps to oyorcon1c .. and ·we rr1ust tackle the 'qu' ,tion · ,,riousl:·- Up to the present onl;,' experimental shipmcuts have been made, but thrsl. haYc b(~('ll vorv faymuablv corn­nlentcd upon. ~pyerth0lc~''i. we hayp, ~a Jong way to go, and every encouragement should be r-.iveJL taxes "hich retard the pro-gress of industry should ho remover.!. Otherwis0 , l"'/0 Inight as well throw in tho towel because we haYe no hope of com­peting 1.vith Argentina unless lYe can con­\'~neo the British public that they should g1ve us an absolute preference. ·whilst I admit the sentiment in the old country is strong in our fayour for greater trade \rlthin the Empire, still we on our part must do our duty hy them in the way of supplying a ~rst-cbs, article and providing for con­tiJluity of supply. Those are the two main factors that must be watched. Therefore, I recommend to the Gon•rnment the abso­lutP nece,,sit:7 of rcn1oving cYerv hnrden [)(Js,ible from this great industry ,(, that we can c!Pvt'lop thorn fully and give cmploy­rnf'nt to a large nurubor of 111Qn who to~dav are on the bread line. '

Then I ,. onlcl strc~s the neecs•,itv of afford­ing son1c reli0f to Qurensland bnsi;1c-ss people and n1anufadurers l\11o arc suffering undel' a wn big- loMl of taxation. \Ve have the Federal ancl Slate land taxes, and in adcli­tTon ycry heaYy rr1nnicipal tclxation. Bris­bane is the mo,st highly ratccl city in the Cmnmonwealth, and our busines:;; pc""lple find great dif!lcult': in competing w;th their riYals in Soutbern cities. ov\7 ing to the shorter \York~ng week and the higher 1vages operat­ing- lwrc, and in addition-and "'hich is just as important-therE' i a trentcndous growth in taxation. To-daY Jar.£!.'0 South~nl e1npor1u~ns 111-::c Anthony llo{·dern's and David

J ones's are transacting a trcn1endons business with Queensland customers through their mail order department. That is a very unsatisfactory state of affairs, and 1 think it will be admitted by hon. members on both sides of tho House that the trade in this State should be confined as much :tS

possible, nJl things being eqnal, to onr own local people. How aro these local firms to compete on an equal basis \\·hilst they ctre subject to this enormous rate of taxation?

Surelv the Government are a~~-arc' of this and re;lise l hat they should abandon tho field of lanrl taxation. if not at once then by m•:a11s of the abolition of the snpee land tax, and then latr>r on reduce by instal­ments the land tax itself. Tho party of which I arn a n1Plnbcr believes in tl!o renlOYa] of the land fOl' the reasons I have p11t ior-\vard; thero arc other'· The uHinufac-turors in this State 1vho aro cndcaYouring to build up the secondary industries, which will provide employment for our artisans and labourers, are not operating on an equal ha.-;i,, in the 1nattcr of conlpetition with Southern manufacturers. In this State we ha YC a shorter working- lvcck, hjgher rate of \Yage-:, and in addition u tren1cndoU'\ burden of taxation.

Mr. \V. T. KrxG: Are you opposed to the shor·tcr working week and the high ,,.ages paid here?

::\fr. RUSSELL: I will giYe tho hon. mem­ber my opinion of that when the question arise~. It. is rny desiro to ~·CO the working Ina-r: enjoy1ng the best conditions, and I also closne to keep as rnuch trade as we can in our O"\Yn State, and that is \Yhy I arn urging a reduction of taxation. If taxation wore reduced we might have a chance of provid­Ing rnoro cn1plo:.·rne-nt for our people. It n1ay be difficult for the Government to adjust thei'r finances. but I think thcv should show some oar~estness, in the matte'f of assi~bng every sect10n of the community. \Vhat chance has a Brisbane manufacturer of successfully com­peting with his riyal in Victoria? Kot the slightr ,t chance in view of the great disparity in regard to 1vagcs and hours and taxation. That is ono of the reasons whv I believe industrial conditions should be controlled by tbo Federal Government, for then undue competition in that regard ,,-oulcl bo ronlOYed. Our sccondarv industries are gradually dying out in th~is State, and are being concentrated in the mor0 fully popu­lated centres of Australia. Let us help those people by reducing taxation that is unjustly placed upon them.

Mr. W. T. KDiG: \Yhy don't you talk about the hours"

Mr. RUSSELL: The question before the House is the matter of the land tax. We an- not rlisccJssing an industrial problem. \Vhen the time arrives I am prepared to g-ive the hon. member the benefit of my YlC,VS.

Flll'thermore. I think the time has arrived in this State when we should talk about the reduction of ta,ation. As a g-eneral prin­ciple, other countries in the 'vorld are reduc­ing taxation. In 1931 the pe,ition in the mother country was EO desperate that it ''as considered by some of the pm,ers that Great Britain was going under. But the British people manfully tacklecl their pro­blems and have reduced taxation during the last few years to the extent of £40,000,000, and the result has been greater employment.

Mr. Russell.]

250 Land Tax Act [ASSE:11BLY.] Amendment Bill.

They are fmding more market• for their manufactured goods, and they are develop­ing the agricultural industry which attracts a great nurllbt~r of industrialist~ frorn the city. Those activities, aided by the reduction of taxation, aro putting Great Britain on her feet.

Of course, looking at the matter casually, one would consider that when we reduce taxation wo must make up for the loss of revenue in other directions. If we reduced this taxation I consider that tho dcficieuey would be made up by greater employment and n·t·catcr prosperity for the inhabitants of this State. I earnestly request the Go­\"ernment to take that matter iu hand at once.

A moment ago I stated that this tax. was unjust because its IllCldence ''as entnelJ different from that of income tax. Tho latter falls on income, in other words, on what ,_·ou earn von pay. This tax falls on a ma1;'s capital,· his assets. It has already been pointed out that even thoug·h a man suffers t\vo or three bad years in succession, and make:; no proiit out of his la.nd, he is called upon to pay this obnoxious land tax. There should be some provisions that the land tax should not be levied on the land unless the lnnd is showing some return-not that I am advocating that unimproved land or unclen·loped land be freed from this tax. 'Vhero tlw mn10r is not making an income or n1aking only an insufficient incorr1c I think some redress should be afforded in the direction of reducing tho rate of tax or wiping it out altogether until the land a"'ain becomes profitable. There is no r~ason >vh .. this tax should not be impo·,cd on princip'ies sin1ilur io income tax. There is no doubt that many of the large land­O\vners are feelin o- this tax very severely. They have no ,;hcrcwithal to pay their taxation bill. l urge upon the Go,·ernment the necc~sity of ail'ording thcrn sornc r~licf.

The Government might readily ask what would be our position? What tax would you inflict on the people in place of this? Of course. that is not our bu ·incss. W c arc here to point out to the Government their Nrors and it is for them to find the remcdv. I' am strongly of the opinion that tho p~rty opposite hold very \Yrong views in •regard to this land tax. \Y o know very well that thov take the point that the increment created by this community belongs to the community and not to the proprif'tor of the land. For a number of years I hrt vc heard such talk, but I have ncycr vet been able to ascertain what really is inc~C'lnont. rrake a pastoral holding, originall:. taken up in an unsettled area. Settlement eventually takes place round that property. ::-.!aturally its value increases. The proprietor is himself partly responsible for thee increased value of that land. Assum­ing for the moment that the contention of the Labour Party is right, and that tho community has created the extra value, this incr('a:Se 1n va~ue they talk about is :::;erne­thing that is Hot tangible. The owner gets no increa<e in the value of the property until it is actuallv sold. ~Were the tax levied on the am~unt realised >Yhen the property was sold, and the Government then claimed their share of the profit that might be quite acceptable, but taxing on this mvthical increment which is not in the owner'~ pocket or in his bank~something in the air-is something to which I take

[ M1·. Rnssell.

objection. That is where I object to the incidence of this land tax. It would be a. different matter if the Goycrnmont levied the tax at the point when tho land was sold. If they imposed a rate when the property was sold the tax would then not be so objectionable. VYe strongly object to the continuance of this super-tax, a.nd we honestly believe that were the land tax gradually wiped out it. would certainly br.ing about more prospcnty 111 our pn­!l1Ul'Y anc1 secondar~; industries, and place us i;1 the position cif being able to dovolop indmtr,· and thus compete in the markets of the' >Yorld with our goods. \Ye should then be able to place our products on the market at prices comparable with those of other countries, bc-aring in ~1ind th~t. wo have still to observe ccl'lalll comhtwns. This state of affairs can onl.v be brought about b\- a reduction of taxatiou, an(1 ospe­ciallv this land tltx. which is bearing so hca,~ily on tho primary a.nd secondary ind astrics.

:\Ir. SWAY?\E (Jfimni) [4.13 p.m.]: I am OlJIJO"'Pd to the ruirnposition nf tho sqncr lallr1 tax. I kuovv it i::o: argncd, per-

• rio·htlv. that the snJail Janaholrlor is afic~tccf b:' it, but I \Ycntld rcr~1ind hon.

l1H':mbcr:-o that the tax has <UJ ID1]10rta.nt

0ffc('t upon the \Yhole of the comrnllni~·Y· vrdl kncY\nl that out· pro~11; nty upon our ;1bility to e'l:pOrt and to

inc!Pbtcclm .. s, but c shall to 0xport in <'(lJlllH:tition with

on1· ri,,a}s Oil tl1e ruarket." of thp Vi.'orlcl 11nlc· s 'SC ha Ye a rt'a:;.;onab10 co;-:r. of pro­duction st:' ndard. \Y c n1ust 0ngagc in con1-petit ion v. ith .A.rg-cntina, in the. sn le of our hccf, a11d alihc;ugh \YG nw.y be n1 an advan­tageous position in 1 he f,alc of our ·wool, still there .._, e mu::)t nH'Ct a e:,_.j tain mnonnt of \VCH"lfl C01Ilp-.!t1tion. rrhis ta.\ DlllSt incYi~ably iucrPUSL' the co::-t of production, and my arf!mucnt is that it is folly to incrcam the coSt of 11roduction in this count.ry when it f:houlcl be otn· ain1 to trade with 11cople who in return ~'l1onld l1c onr cn~torncr~ on the other side of the world. The imposition of this tax will n~ake it incrch~lngly difficult for people to grO\V and export beef. \Vool, e-tc., for sale oYcr~eas.

There is anothn phase of the cattle indu,trv that ,;hcmld be comidered, and that is the breeding of stnd stock. ~\nyone who ha" livc'cl amongst the cattle of this St<ttO ,-j]l knmY that. generally speabng. the qnality of our herds is not "·hat it should bP, arHl if we nrc io engage succes~fully 1n the chilled meat b·ade, it will be nCC'CS'''ll'Y

to in1proYc oar standard of qnCLlity. ~lost of the ~tud stock properties of this Slat<' arp snbje(·t to thl:5 tax, an itcn1 of l~03t that mu't be added to tho cost of br,'cdmg the stock. All thc'C cost~ must he [lassed on to the buvc1'" of our meat. This is a wrcn1n· tin:1c tO incrt'ase the cost of produc­tion in anv wav whatever. I had hoped that the Gon•rnment, i11 fact all Gov{'l'Il· rncnts, "·oulcl ha.vc reduced taxation at the pre~cnt. tinH'. T~:1xation is Pxorbit_ant and crippling at an:v stage of procluct10n, and it i"' largeh the reason \vhy uncm1lloyment is so rife in this country. The pcc•ple "·ho \YonJd othc-rwi::-;c providC vvork for n1cn on rep1·oductiYc undertakings arc handica11ped by high taxation. It is inopportune to increase taxation at any time whether it be applicable to the small man or to the big man.

Land Tax Act [ 19 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 25I

Mr. MAXWELL (To01conq) [4.22 p.m.]: The statement made hy the Secretary for Public Instruction and Assistant Treasurer dealing with the reimpmition of this tax does not squam ,yith the remarks made by the Secrdary for Public Lands during his Yisit to the Xorth, as Deputy Premier, quite recentlY. The Secrctarv for Pnblic Instruc­tion stated that it ,,.a·s necc'-sarv to reim­po'e tho tax because of the )Josition of the finances of thP State-, and ber:t"!J~e the Tre-n~urPr had giYen a~"n1·ance::; to the Loan Council that certain thing; would bo clone. It be all right to make those staten1ents but. IYheu the ])r>puty Premier 'Yas in the Xorth--thnt is if the pn ·;s has rcportr"l hirn corrr•ct h-~hc mid that tlw Con·r·umeut had plenty of mouey and he inviLecl the people to gc•t in early and help thmnselves.

The SEc'R:t:TARY Fon Prnr.rc LAXDS: Can you not distin~ui:-h bch-rccn the Loan Fund Account and Consolidatell Reve11uo?

:\Ir. :',L\XIYELL: I can. I can distin­gnish bchveen prorni">c~ nmdP for certain purposes and the real fnct,, but. I cannot rccoucilc' tho .a.t'o·utnent adYancccl bv the SN-rl'tarv for PL~blic Instruction with the sugg(•-;tic~n made by the Sccrl'trtry for Public Land:; \YlH'n acti11g as Dcput.v Prernicr. During the; introduction of this rncasuro the hem. g-entlernan in charge of it indulged, not in oratory, but rathc~r talk of ::t strP{'t-corncr sort~ \Yhen he said, ""\..,.on (.ll'P taking np the cudgels ou belralf of your big Queen f't.rec•t rnPn." That i~ the custornarv talk that co:nPs front thC'::3C' hon. gpn(lcnlen. As~nnnlng that his charge was corroct-I dcnv that it is COlTcct.-thon IYho arc the big· Queen street men that lie talks ahout? EYcrv hnn. n1e1nber in this 1-TOl..l"<' k11ows full ,~cell thd there is not ono big indi,-idual laudholrler in Queen street. The big pro­port ion of the Lusinc~s site~ arc owned b.""·­conlpanies.

I l'C!uen1bC'r that the Treasurer, -rrhcn takiug OYt'r the rrins of Gon~nuncnt, pointed out the roudition of aJfrrirs not n1ercly in Queensland but throughout the length and brc~ch h of A nstralia, and became of that faei im'itcd the co-operation of these very busincs.:.; nwn \d1o1n he said they were trying to assist. 'l'hat is quite a different story from the one told when the Treasurer \\as on the hustings. TJw Diinistor in charge of the Dill y<•sierday. said it "as incorrect to "l:V that the Tnmsurer had promised in his Polic;, Speech to reduce taxation. I will r1uote ,,.hat the hon. gentleman then said~

"Hc•lid from the burden of taxation can be looked for in the dirediou of a policy \Yhich i-.: conducive to increasing cJnplo;pucnt, rcsnltiug in grenter indus­trial actiYities generally. Such a policy will be punuecl by the Labour Party."

Yet the Secretary for Public Imtmct.ion said tlw Trf'Jsuror n1ade no surh promise.

The SEcRETARY FOR PuBLIC IxsrnucTION : I quoted that almoet word for word.

Mr. MAX'VYELL: I say that tho hon. gentleman dJCl not quote the extract I gavo ,,.ord for word.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC INSTRUCTION : Almost.

Mr. JI.L\XWELL: The hon. gentleman quotr~d things not applieable to the matter, bLlt I have consulted the '· Standard " for the Treasurer's o\vn \Yords in his policy speech.

This leads me to the objective of the Labour Party, and a study of their objective generally shows the intentions of their policy. All that it is necessary for mo to do is to state that the whole ambition of the Labour Party is socialisation, and their endea Your is to bring that state of afiairs al)out by the taxation of cm11loycrs out of iudustry. \Ye haYc proof of that in this very city. Take our buildings and shops tbroughont the length and breadth of this city. I caunot di.,cnss that phase of this subject now. but I shall have something to sa v on it Ja<tcr on \Yhcn the E~tlrnates a re be,ill;:r d iscns~ ~.!d. I shall then bring ev1dcnco to show what t-he Gove-rnment ha' e done in pushir1g HH'n ont of inclmfry. The Govern­ment consider thrrt they are helping the State by pmsuing that policy. They are 11ot. The pionPers neYer made the country what it is to-clav to enable hon. members opposlu- to pur~~1o snch a policy, nor did tlwv do so with tho object of allowing· hon. rncrubcrs 011posito io exploit. it in the way they are doing by taxing the big man, as they term him, out of industry. 'VVo have proof again of ihu.t polio~· in the statement ma-clo hy :\Ir. (now Senator) l\IacDonald at the J~1nu Park Labour Convention in l\farch, 1923, who, in speaking to the objec-­iiYe, said--

" There \Vere ways of ga.ining their {'nds such as taxat-ion and competing the capitalist out of business."

That is what hon. members opposite are doing. It is no use their denying it. People are foolish enough to believe the piffle they talk that thev are out to help this State when at the same time they arc sticking the knife into them at every opportunity.

There is no need for this super tax. I propose to take up the lino of argun1ent adopted by our Leader and sho" that the revenue of the State is bt\0\ ant. That state­lHPnt is borne ont b.v a c'Ompa ri~on of the receipts in .July and August, 1934. as com­pared with tho corresponding months in 1933, increases being shown as follo\Vs :-

Incon1o tax Stamp duty H.a.i]wa:~ revenue ... Other receipts, excluding

£ 17,563 41.249

151,129

main road contributions... 29,845

These items <how that in tho first t'vo months of the present frnanoial year the im­proYement in the receipts amounted to £236.808. Yet wo find the Minister coming: into this House and telling us that tlm Treasurer gayo an a.s ,urancn to thP Loan Count il that. owing to the financial <lifficnl-­t ie"...; we were in, and because the finances. wnc not what they should be, it would be ncccssarv to re-enact the super land tax. ThiR gentleman did not tell the electors that on !h" hustings the other clay. He kept that statement for rmothcr occasion. vVe know yery '"ell, too, that this year the Goyernmeut are receiving £286.000 from the Cornn1onvvPa1th Govcrn1nenL for a specific purpose~equal to £47,000 in two month,.. In the face of the buovancv of thP rcYenue and the improYcment generally in the finances, I am perfectly j nstifiecl in following my leader in stating that there is no neee,sity for the re-enactment of tl11s super land tax.

\Vo know how Gon:-rnnicnt mcrnb;:rs loYG the pastoralists, the grazier', and the other big men. Hon. members opposite could not

JJJr. JJlaxwell.]

252 Land Tax Act [ASSEl\IBLY.] Amendment Bill.

occupy their present positions if we did not eeceiYe the rnonoy for go•;ernrncnt, and in that direction I desire to refer to the noport Gf the c·omnl issionor of Taxes. It is c>sti~ ma!Hl that the super land tax will yield £110,000, but if the GoYernment did not teimpo'O that tax I am certain thev \\onld lnako up the difference by receiving taxation through proper channels.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC Ie~STRcCnoe~ : \Vhat \I'Ould the proper channels be?

Jl.k 1\IAX\\'ELL: The Minister and his col lea g-ur·-, \\ ould cut o·.tt those that thev tefcr to a,s ·• the big- Queen street nlCil. ,u, They apparent!)~ OYerlook the fact that they arc referring to financial jnstitut.ions, drapery ostabh'h111ents. and mercantile houses that ornplo.v a tretncndous ntunber of men and \YOilll'U. Surely hon. InPrllb .rs oppo-;itn hnvc sufficient bu~ine·:.s acun1en to realise that there C'OLlle::; a tiu10 vdJCn taxation is so great ._bat LnsiHess activit~~ rnust be restricted. I and others know of cases \Yhcre dcpartnwntal managers of big cstablishn1cni<::, ha\·c not beon able to draw s~tlarics, or dra\\' to the extent of onlv half their u'ual salaries. in ordPr that the businessc, mig"ht continue and the employees be paid their usual wages.

\Ye !mow l!tc extent to which the Gon:rn-111Cllt arc ~p0nding loan n1oncy. \Yhy dicl the Govet't\luent 1iot keep the plodl(o ihev made to the (Woplc that they would' rcc;nc;, the bnrclcn of taxation? It is apparent that indiYidual rn<'lHLCl'S of the Caucus wj1l not al1ow the Go,·ennnent to do ''0. contc,nding that the fr<>chold tcnnn' of land must go lo make \\ ,JY for the leasehold svstPnL It is n1y pnrpo-;e. t J-day to PXlJoso hOn. nJelnb{'l'~ opposite in tlleir tnw colours and let the iJUblic kum\- just \vhat the position is. \Vhilst t.ho hon. gcntlc;nan \Vho acts as Assistant Trca:"urer ~ays, '' O·wing to the stringency of ihc fillalH'e.-; \NC hayo to roin1posc tile super land tax." the Gm,ernment of "hi eh he is a n1en1ber spend:-; loan monov lavishly. L{~t tne quote t!Jo following ]H'0:'~ staterucnt by the Treasurer on the 4th instant:-

" The~ Treasurv returns Fhowcd tlrat there \\as £290.000 Pxccss of rcYenuc over expenditure, ancl the apparent improve­ment oner the two months of 1933-34 was about £312.000, but the actual f1gurc was. in the vicinity of £170,000. The l'ecclpts contrnuccl to show cvid('nco of Lnovancy, and '~"Ore £237,000 in exc,css of the correcponding period of last year. Th€' a l110Unt rece1ved fro1n the Conunon~ \vealth inrludecl £47,700, being the quota for two months of the special p;rant of £286.000 made available for payment to the State during tho current financial year. rrht'l'e \YCl'C Y0l',Y gratif:vlng mcr':'"."'s of £41,000 in stamp duty receipts and £151,000 in rarlwav earn~ ings. Both i he se increasf's were ~vi donee of improved businesb conditions."

Let us analyse the position to see how the people lwve been ''relieved" of the burden of taxation. vYr· know that tho GoYennnent said thev \Yould not indu]rre in an~v starvation co:11pci::ibon; that th('v '~onld take the onlY course to provide more "employ~ 111ent, th£Lt coursC' being the lavisl1 spendin'?' of loan money. This is the ext0nt to which the Government hav0 honoured their pro­rnise to ease the burden of ta\ation. . Tho estimated revenue from snper land tax Is £130.000 per allnum.

The Sr·:cr:ETAHY FOR PUBLIC IxSTHcCTION : ]\' o, £110,000.

[Mr. Maxwell.

Mr. ::\L\XV\'ELL : I sh,t\1 accr;pt tho hon. P,'cntlenHLll's correction. Tbe position then IS-

Incorne tax, rates increased 25 per cent

SliVer laHd tax (rcin1posell) Fa,res ancl freights increased ... Motor transport fees imposed,'" Unemployment relief tax in-

creased

Total

£

270,000 110,000 325,000

58,929

878,710

£1.642,639 In addition to the improvement in revenue previously mcntioued, the unemployment relief tax for the t'.,"O months shmved an mcreace of £83,175, or at the rate of £499,050 per annum. 'l'he excess of receipts for the two months amounted to £101,135. In the face of those figures \Ye arc told by hon. members oppo,ite that unemployment has become a thing of the past. 1\lr. Speaker, I >vould that it were so. I \veuld thut every man, womnn, and child could enjoy a decent standard of living, and not the standard of living that is possible on £1 Os. 3d. or £1 7s. 6d. per \Yeek. Hon. members opposite on the hust­ings told the people of the many things they \voulcl do, but have they done them? The;- lwve novor done what the7 said they v;,Tould clu. 1-lon. rnen1 bcrs 011positc are try­ing to elope the people into the belief that they arc doing son1ething for them.

If it is true that the unemployed arc being absorbed, how can this increase in the unemployment relief tax be explained'? If the llumbcr of unemployed has been lc'5~ouccl to that extent, then this n1oncy has not been obtained decently. If the unemployed have been absorbed to the extent hon. -11embcT"" opposite ciaim, \Yhy has not the burden of relief taxation been reduced?

1 shall now quote the loan expenditure for the last three years, which was as fol!Dws :-

First yucr-1932-33 Secoucl year-1933-34 Third :year ( "' tima ted)

£ 2,188,022 3,166,481 4,400,000

It is eYidont that the policy of this Govern­Inont is to extract as 1nuch rnoney as pos~ siblo bv \VaY of tax<etion in addition to loan money; and splaoh it around in the last year of office \Yithout regard to Lho future.

l\Ir. W. T. KING: That is quite 1\Tong. :Mr. J\IAXWELL : lt is a ;~ rong thing to

do. During the flrst year of office this Government spent £2.000,0uO odd in the relief of uncrnploynwnt, and this year, when according to the Minister and the Treasur•,cr there has heen a vast improYe­ment in the unemployment (i"ures the expenditure amounts to £4,000,00u.

:Vlr. SPEAKER: Order ! I suggest the hrm. rnernbor revert to the question before the House.

l\Ir. MAXvYELL: I can vouch for the statements made by the hon. member for Oxlcy in regard to the valuations placed ou business premises. Ho cited one instance ~,diCro the pren1is.;''s of a certain company >Yore valued at over £30,000, but could not lJl' sold to-clav for £14.000. vVhat is the reason? L:ndot;btodlv the cause of this depreciation is dne to· the imposition of the land tax, super land tax, and also the

Land Tax Act [19 SEPTE~IBER.] Amendment Bill. 253

municipal taxation. I recollect drawing the attention of the ex-Promict·. l\1r. }lcCor­lnack, to an in~tance in this city, where one -of our business people paid £2,000 in water ratPs for the year, and he expressed astonish­ment at it.

The Assistant Tre<tsurcr remarked that hon. members of ihc 011position did not appear to nndPrstand that this was a tax upon the unimproved value of the land. Of course. \Ye understand that. A tax on the unl1np~rovcd value of land for services ren­.cJered rw:t:. be justified, and the local authori­ties are collecting such a tax. Tho burden ·of taxation hac. become so gre:;t that people are prepared to sell their property for con­siderable- ]C'c.s than the;· rmid for it, and sorne eYCn give it away.·- :-A- ccrt,1in cornpany Nectccl a building m BrisbaJH', not, of rour::e, as a charitable in~titution. but expect­ing to rccciYc a certain an1ount of into_r~_-st op the capital invested. Another firm m thrs 0ity, .qnitc c;apablo of placing a valne on the ::trncturc. s1gned a leaBe foi~ fonr years at £3.800 rent a year. I may say it is on a big block of land, and contalns various shops. The leas~ CXllircd at a tin1c ·when reub had dropped, but 1 lwy had clromwcl to such an extent that the con1pany could not cove>r the rates and taxes out the l'evenuc received. As a matter of fact resort had to be made to the court for relief under the :\Iortg·agors' Hclief Act. That is not 11n isolated instance. Let hon. nwmbere on the ·other· side take a walk round and sec the irnpo:::ing structures in the city ''"hich arc nov· tenantless, or practically so. Only the othN day tho building previously occupied b7 Hertzherg and Company was pnt up with. out a single bid. \Yhy was it necessary for tho~e pooplC' to clisf'ontinue business? BC>cau~c tA.xation V\'as so great thut it as impossible for them to carry on. How much longer is this state of affairs to be allowed to continue? Surclv the Go,·ernment can profit by past cxpet'.iencPs in the matter of State enterprises! They h11d an opportunity of abandoning the further imposition of this su.per land tax upon tho busine,,;s corn~ 111unit5·, and the.'? should have accepted it. I,et them remember that it is the last straw that breaks the camel's back. There has been nn1eh talk about business improving, yet I can dravv the attention of hon. rnern~ ber::.; to certain l1usiness houses 'vhcre bu·,·i~ ncss is 11ractically at a standstill, the greater number of the emplo;ecs baying been dis­pon-ed 1\ ith, and the business being carried on with merelv a skeleton staff. That is the -deplorable cor'ldition in which we' find cer­tain business men who have hel]1ed to make this citv of ours what it is. The Govern­ment l;a,·c made it impossible for these men to carry on. They have taxed them out -of business.

Hon. members in the party opposite should not be influenced by the claptrap of thei t predoces"ors. They ~hould not pm·suo a policy formulated vears and year.s ago by a section of the commnnitv. a section of men 1rho conlrl not visualise· the rcoults of thl'ir foolish actions. The public is begin­ning to realise the enormous burden of taxa­tion under which they labour, anrl this super land tax will be the last straw. The listeners to the Premier when he speaks on the hust­ings. m· at some public function, -,t·ill realise that the st.atc1nents he is making are not in accordance with facts. I remember that at cne function he said " Righteousness

exalteth a nation," but whv does he not practrse it? \Ve on thi~ side will Le able to tell the electors that they have not clone, and have 110 iutontion of doing, anything- to lighten their burdens. I sin· cerely trust wiser counsels will prcyail, and that the Government 1vill withdraw this measure .and allow us to progress towards pro,perity.

1\Ir. BRA:\"D (lsis) [4.47 p.m.]: The Sccrc­tar.v for Public Instructiou. in moYing· the H'cond reading of this Bill, seeks only to juslif_v the present me,,sure of land taxation, lmt we know that so far as he and his party arc concerned. their policy stands for land taxation to the point of extinction of private ownPrship. On that question there can be n sharp di\~i:.;ion so far as rr1Cn1bers of this IIou~c arc conc('rned. For ~0111e brnc 11·e on this side haYe taken the stand that lancl taxation is unjustified and is a f'l ass tax. If land taxation itself is a class tax, thi" Bill is iucrusiug the tax upon that clas" \1-hich O'vns the land by another 25 per cent. I haY< gPncrall'c found that people who cl0 not own land feel very plc >Sed indeed a__

in1posinv taxation upon those who do. l lmY(~ often wondered v;..·hat was the reason. \Ye werp told in tlw earlv stages of this tax th~t public policy clcmar~clcd it. bnt CX]Wri­cnco has sho1vn that that public need does not exist. and that the land tax that has been imposed in thi.s State has not been the In cans of arbicY ing the bur~ting up of those largo eetates that it was supposed to acco!1l­pli h. Consequently at a period such as illi<--

Thc SErRET.\ ut FOR Penuc I XSTRlTTIOx :

You li\·e in the Burrun1 district "·here the tax has had some effect.

l\Ir. BRAKD: The Minister knows that it has had no effect v. hatc,-cr in the Burrum district.

The SECRET.\RY FOR PcBLlC l'lSTnt:cTJO'l : Thf' country is closely settled, ancl at least cnc big estate has been subdi,-iclecl.

l\fr. BR \:'\D: \\ hich estate? The SECBET"\RY ron PuBLIO IKSTRUCTIOK :

At least one big estate.

}lr. BIL\ND: It is still there. It has not been burst up.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC I:;;sTnt:cTION: Thoro aro a number of farms thcr".

Mr. BRAXD : I do not think that land taxation "-ill over burst up that estate. \Yhatcver may be said about the bursting up of this ostato-I am not going- into that question just now-suffice it to say that these e:-:.tatcs are employing very mnn:v mon on useful work throughout the year. The most progrc-_.siye Goycrnrncnts in Australia to­clay realise that if we arc to balance out· Budgets and get out of the difficult positio11 in which we Hncl ourselves, we shall have to giyc re'icf to industry. I lhvc yet to learn of am· measures introduced bv the JH'<'SPnt Go,:crnrnent to proYiclo tangible relief to industry. 'There is one industry, the beef cattle industry, that cannot bear l.ancl taxation, let alone super land taxation. A very practical beef grower, the hon. mem­ber for Fa;,sifcrn, yesterday warned the Government that it would be necessary to take care of thi-. important industry. Every person in Queensland \Yill agree that the hon. member for Fassifcrn does know some­thing about the beef cattle industry. This industry, if given a chance, could employ

JJJr. Brand.]

254 Land Tax Act, Etc., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

9uite a large number of our people, but it IS ImpossJble for It to do so whilst Govern­ments. are prepared to p 1ace heavy imposts upon It. Durmg the regime of tho JI.IcCor­mack and the i\Ioore Government;; relief in the form of reduced land rcntals was gi,·cn to the pastoral lessee because of the fall in 1:hc price of wool and cattk but no relief has been given to the freeholders in the industry. The hon. member for Fassi­fern pointed out ycster.dav that the free~ holders in the cattle industt'}" would ha vc to plOHccr an:, agitation for relief for that industry, and that \Yill have to be done if the indu"Jtry is to cno-acrc in the production of chilled ~1eat and beef O;n:y. ten. days ago .a yunng selector in mJ: d1~tnrt. 111 addressing 11i1nself to t}J(' I~is Shire Council, sLatc>d- that rates and taxi's rcpresontecl a eo t of 10s. for cverv hrad of beef cattle on his holding. Hero is a young .L~ustral~an .labounng nncl0r great di"-abili­tirs try1ng to enrn a liYing frmn the land! Th,Tc can be· I,o douH that t-axation in all its phnscs is a heavy burden on the n1en engaged in thr> cattie iudustn. I would in1pre~s upon Government n1en1l~(~rs thP nf'ed of extending some relief to the frceho1dcr enf!aged in the cattle industrv. Ue is endeavouring to foster thi~ indu:3trv and with the aid of scientific invention to' make it a more important one. \Y c cannot hope for the Jndu,try to bo prosperous Linlcss we are prepared to give it some relief.

I _belic•vc that the people of Australia are an~1ous that q-ovcrnments ~hould giYe thjs rol1ef. There IS no doubt that on Saturday last the Lyons Governnwnt secured the endorsement of the people because they pro­mtsed to reduce taxation upon indnstr"v and upon the people, and I hope that the Jl~·csont State Government will make cYerv effort to give the freeholder in the cattle industry th<> relief that 11c desPnc•s. Assistance has already been extended to the leaseholder. but }he freeholder is surely entitled to ~ Sim11ar measure of relief .

. There is a trend to,;:arrb: reduction ju taxa­t.Jon throughout Anotral;a t<>daY. \Ye have hac! planners. of all dL ·cription_:_crcclit plan­ners and financial pla.nners-\·e:'killo· the suffragos _of tlw people h<1Ying as their bpolicY a recluctJOn of the burdP:~' of t.axatioll on induetry. It is true that th<'Y failed to secm·e the support of the people of Anstmlitt, b"t they have ccrta111ly I'sucd a challenge to the Gon:rnrnenh of Australia and shown that the~·e i-; a growing clan1our fo1· ~omc relief to 1ndus~ry to .enable it to cnlcrg-e fron1 its present Impossible position. The people in rny 9lectorate engagPd Jn tlw cattle inllustrv aro m a bad way and nee cl the rcl ief which v-rr>. !lro endeayouring to ~('CUrC' front the ~Iuuster. The i1nposition of this tax j;-:; not ;vise hom their point of view. ::-icithcr ;vill It benefit Queensland as a \Yhole. It. is true that it will prodEcc £ll0.00J to assist th" Tre~c:nrcr to !"Jab11ce his Budget, but \VO n1ust reahso that m order to balance our bnrhct It· I~"' nece~sary. to. haYO a pro~1wron~ and coutentP-d couutrysHlo and prospcrou~ inrlus­tr.\:- Ont;c our . in(lustries, particular!'" our prunary Indnstn('~, arc prosperous an'cl ihc people engaged in the1n arc making a Euc­ccss of them the Government con not onlY­hope to balrtnco their Dudget, but th;, poop!:C of QHoon:land \Yill obtain sonlf' relief fro1~1 ~he prr-ssuq:~ burden of unc·rnplovnH~nt. It I? our dt1ty as a Parlian1ent and ~reprc.::;enla­ttYCS of tbo l'l'Op]c to find nwan' whereby

[Mr. Brand.

we can give greater relief to those peoplv f'ngaged in industrv. Our dutv is not onlv to them but to the people of Queensland vvho are looking for some new ideas and relief to lift them from their present diffi~ culties.

I was hopeful when the .Pren1ier made such a glowing report of the finances, and especmlly \Yhcn the Secretary for Public Lands assured lho people that he hacl plenty of rnonev aYailablo for public "orks, and that the GoYernrnent wore looking for ways and u1eans to :-po11d it as quickly as possiblt', that IY8 \Yould have some roliPf frorn taxa­tion. \Ye hoph_1 that ho11. tne;nbers opposite, \vho prate as if th0y v:er!? wizards .of finance, vYotdd fwcl a way of fOYiug- that rol11~f to inclustr~· \Yhich it so greatly ueedcd. Right thro:1ghont th~ countr:'; to-day is a growing feeling of di.-;contPnt all GoYernnJents at thl' incr('a:::.ing of taxation placed upon the pcopl0. ::\o n1eJn­ber of the Gove1·nn1ent can tour the State \vithout rcrl1sin;r, that the prop]e are becotu­ing more and rnore restive under its increas­ing burdens. VVo had C\-iclenc·e of thrct YYith l'<''J1CCt to the bull tax. It i., the r1nty of tbe Treasurer to do all pmsiblc to give relief in that direction. "\ decision not to re-enact the super land tax. in itceH nnju.-ti­fted, ,~.ronld be a hen.rtcnlng gp:-;turc to t]Ie people engagml in the pastor d industry. ;yho have experienced great diffit nltit. for a nurnbcr of years.

Mr. DA'\'IEL adjournment of t!Je

Question put and passed.

I move the

Reonmption of debate made an On1er r,[ the Day for to-rno!TO\Y.

The House adjourned at 5 p.m.