Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 3 NOVEMBER 1942

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

840 Comm. Constitutional Convention. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

TUESDAY, 3 NOVEMBER, 1942.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. E. J. Hanson, Buranda) took the chair at 11 a.m.

QUESTIONS.

TUBERCULOSIS CASES.

Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) asked the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs-

'' How many persons are at present suffering from tuberculosis in Queensland~''

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, Ithaca) replied-

'' The number of persons at present sufferi~g from tuberculosis in Queens­land 1s not available, but the num­ber of such cases notified during 1940-41 and 1941-42 is as follows:-1940-41-Brisbane, 395; outside Brisbane, 216; total for State, 611. 1941-42-Brisbane, 340; outside Brisbane, 209; total for State, 549."

CONTROL OF VENEREAL DISEASE.

Mr. MANN (Brisbane) asked the Secre­tary for Health and Home Affairs-

'' 1. Has his attention been directed to the statement reported to have been made by Alderman W. Howard in the "Courier­Mail" of 29 October, that the number of persons suffering from venereal disease has grown alarmingly~

'' 2. What action is the Department of Health and Home Affairs taking to cope with this problem~"

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, Ithaca) replied-

''1. Yes.

'' 2. The question of venereal disease con­trol has at all times exercised the officers of the departm·ent responsible for these duties. Queensland legislation and control are far ahead in this respect of any of the other Australian States, and this fact was admitted at a recent Conference of Pre­miers in Canberra. It was brought under my notice in July last that the notified incidence of venereal disease was on the increase, and a conference was called for Thursday, July 30, 1942, at which the State Health Department, the Commonwealth Department of Health, the U.S.A.F.I.A. and U.S.N., the Australian Forces (Mili­tary, Air :B'orce, and . Naval), Women's Organisations, and the Dermatological Department of the Brisbane Hospital were represented. The whole question of venereal disease control was dealt with, and as a result we have received particulars of the sources of infection in a great number of instances. Action is taken in

Main Roads Acts Arndt. BUZ. [3 NovEMBER.] Suppl;y. 841

respect of every one of these, and the per· sons named (if located) are ordered up for medical examination, and if found to be suffering from venereal disease, are detained for treatment. Since the end of May, 157 Detention Orders have been issued in Brisbane in this connection, as against 22 for the corresponding period of 1941. The legislation of this State form'ed the basis for the issue of the regulations issued under the National Security Act, 1939-40, and which came into operation on September 1, 1942, under the title 'The National Security (Venereal Diseases and Contraceptives) Regulations.' One of the most important provisions of these Regulations is the power given to the Commissioner of Police when authorised so to do by the Director­General (as Chief Health Officer (Queens­land) under the Regulations in question) to issue a warrant authorising any constable named therein to apprehend the suspected person who fails to present himself or her­self for medical examination at the time and place specified in any order issued in this respect: if the suspected person refuses to submit for examination he or sh~ may be detained in a hospital ~r other smtable place for such period as the Chief Health Officer directs. The Chief Health Officer ~s authorised to notify any medical officer m the Naval or Military Forces or of the Arm'ed .Forces of His Majesty or any Power allied or associated with His ~a.jesty in any war in which His Majesty Is engaged <:f the name of any person of the Forces m Australia who is suffering from venereal disease. As mentioned in the Annual Report, the notifications received during _19~1-42 do not truly represent the actual mcr.d~nce, as the great majority of me~ of mr~rtary ages, which are the ages whr~h pr?vrde means of infection, are on servrce wrth t~e A.I.F., the A.M.F., or other Defence bodres. At the present time there are 89 women in detention fo~ treatment for venereal disease-SO in Brrsba:r;e and nine in four outside centres. Recog;:rrsed prostitutes and amateurs behavmg .as prostitutes are segregated from young guls of the more unfortunate type. Infected girls who are not of these types are treated without being detained The . new Lock Hospital building no~ nearr_ng C?mpletion, will provide fo-/ wider classrficatron and segregation of various types of women.''

MAIN ROADS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

INITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. H. A. Bruce, The Tableland): I move-

''That the House will, at its next sitting resolve itself into a Committee of the Whol~ to consider of the desirableness of intro­ducing a Bill to amend the Main Roads Acts, 1920 to 1939 in certain particulars, and for other purposes.''

Motion agreed to.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (PUBLIC AIR RAID SHELTERS) LOANS BILL.

INITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. H. A. Bruce, The Tableland): I move-

'' That the House will, at its next sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the desirableness of intro­ducing a Bill to provide for defraying the cost of constructing public air-raid shelters in the areas of local authorities, and for other purposes.''

Motion agreed to.

SUPPLY.

RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE-ESTIMATES-. SIXTH ALLOTTED DAY.

(The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Brassing· ton, Fortitude Valley, in the chair.)

EsTIMATES IN CHIEF, 1942-1943.

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE AND STOCK. CHIEF OFFICE.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) (11.6 a.m.): I move-

" That £92,555 be granted for 'Depart· ment of Agriculture and Stock-Chief Office.' ''

The amount asked for this year is £10,174 less than the appropriation for last year. Salaries show a decrease of £5,594 and con­tingencies generally a decrease of £4,580. Of course, the reduction in salaries is brought about by enlistments and the impossibility of further recruitments to the department and obviously expenditure on contingencies' which is based on the number of officers wh~ have to be serviced, also declines.

Mr. WALKER (Cooroora) (11.7 a.m.): I realise that Queensland, with the other States of the Commonwealth, and as a matter of fact the British Empire, is undergoing a ter­rible ordeal owing to the prevailing war con· ditions, and allowances must be made for this in any discussion of the Estimates. I observe that the votes for this department with the exception of two, have greatly decreased. Some officers, of course, have been taken from sub-departments and are being PlJ:id from t?-e votes for. the Emergency Sup­plies Commrttee and Miscellaneous Services both of which show large increases. Thi~ transfer and loss of staff must make the working of the department difficult, because it is well known that officers who work in one branch for a long time get into what may be termed a groove of efficiency, which makes for the smoother operation. Taking it by and large, the total for this department has increased by approximately £24,000, for which no doubt war conditions are in the main responsible.

It is difficult to analyse the position of ou:r agricultural industries inasmuch as the report of the department has not been presented. Naturally, it contains much information of

842 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Committee. officers from to meet war no end of

value to members of the Enlistments and the transfer of one sub-department to another conditions must have caused trouble to the Minister's work, preparation of his report.

including the

Some time ago I had the pleasure of read­ing the Minister's ~peech on food supply­I had not the pleasure of actually hearing it in the Chamber-and I was astounded to learn the results of the investigations he has made. It was an outstanding speech and gave much food for thought. I recall that he dealt with food supplies for the fighting forces in comparison with the civilian popu­lation, and of course, I agree with the hon. gentleman that our children and growing youths must receive sufficient nourishing foods if at all possible.

The monthly publication of the "Queens­land Agricultural Journal' ' has ceased and a llome-garden edition has h'oon substitute'l fo!· it. The journa1 was ,-ery well got up and contained much invaluable information for farmers, particularly articles dealing with the combating of diseases and ]:est• in plants and stock. We fanners miss it very much, but the home-garden edition also helps us very much. In travelling by rail it is surpTising to see the number of vegetable patches in the back yards of dwelling houses abutting on the railway line, and the results of the industry of station-masters who are now growing vegetables instead of ornamental trees. Till comparatively recently in the city of Gympie one could see untidy back yards but to-day neat vegetable plots have taken the place of many of them. All this shows that the people realise that in growing vegetables they are helping themselves and the war effort. One does not see so much of this about Bris­bane, no doubt because the railways bring supplies from the surrounding country dis­tricts. I deplore the loss of the ''Queensland Agricultural J omnal.'' I understand it was a matter of economy, but I trust that economy will not mean the curtailment of the valuable information we still receive as to the control of diseases in plants and stock. If that work slips back, it may be many years before we are able to make up the leeway.

I should like information from the Minister as to whether tick and buffalo-fly infestation is spreading in this State.

}lr. CHAIRMAN: Order! Discussion of those matters will be permitted when we are discussing the Trust and Special Funds.

Mr. WALKER: I understood that we have always been privileged to deal with these things when discussing the Chief Office vote. I thought it was generaliy understood that one c~uld say a~ much as possible when dealing w1th the Ch1ef Office vote and so curtail dis­cussion on the subsidiary votes but I bow to your ruling. '

I have noticed that our primary products in general have decreased in the last two years. This is a grave situation, and1 to my way of ~hinking, the gr~at~st d:crease. has taken place m one of the prmc1pai mdustnes of this State

-butter production, which is worth approxi­mately £9,000,000 a year to us. Since 1939 the value produced has decreased by £3,350,000. Two things can be blamed for this. The first is that the return to the producer is not adequate and the second is the great number of enlistments that have taken place from this industry. It must be remen;bered that whilst the basic wage has ?een n:creased to the workers in secondary mdustnes there has been no increase in the return to the farmer, who also has to pay the ~igher prices for foodstuffs, for we must adm1t that when the basic wage is increased the price of food and everything else goes up with it.

The Commonwealth Government established a committee to go into these questions, but we have had no redress. I have often won­dered why the workers in industry have not followed the example set by om primary pro­ducers. The primary producers of Queens­land. do not go on strike. If they had not recerved the extra 3~d. a lb. for their butter, as recommended by the committee and they had gone on strike, I should hate to think what the position would have been here, but we m the country do not believe in strikes" On the other hand, if the tramway men had not received the extra few shillings they sought some weeks ago they would have gone on strikP immediately. The farmer does not strike; he tolerates these adverse conditions, and he should have more consideration. Of course, the Commonwealth Government have granted some relief by making £2 000 000 availa~le for the whole of the butter pro­duced m Australia, but we are still struggling under the burden of high costs, low incomes, and sho;·tage of labour. This year our butter production may be even lower. It is impor­tant that it should be increased because as the Minister knows, England is asking 'for 70,000 boxes this year. We must not lose sight of the fact that the people of England must be fed and their health maintained. We are all fighting for the one cause and as far as it is possible to do so, we should b~ on the one footing where food supplies are con­cerned. Engiand has lost her Danish and Russian butter and is forced to rely chiefly on Canada and Australia. For that reason our production will have to increase and it is likely that in order to keep up th~ supply to England we shall have to introduce ration­ing here. Our people should not mind that when they remember the deplorable conditions under which the people of England are living to-day.

Another big factor in the decreased pro­duction is that the dairy farmer is really working at a loss. I venture the opinion that if returns were .ohtained 'from t·he thl'ee biggest factories in Queensland it would be ~ound that the annual return to the dairyman IS less than the basic wage. In addition, his rent is high, and he has numerous other extra expenses that go to make his lot almost unbearable. There are 17,000 fewer dairy­men in Australia than there were before the war, and I feel confident that the reasons I have outlined are responsible for that. It

Supply. [3 NOVEMBER.) Supply. 843

is essential that our production be increased, and I hope one of the first things our Minister will do will be to improve condi­tions, speed up production, and so set an example to the Australian States as to what can be done to help Great Britain in her trouble.

I arrree entirely with the Minister's refer­ence to the fact that the wage-earner in the city enjoys a minimu~ wage, pl"ll:s overtime, whilst the farmer recmves a max1mum wage and no minimum. That is perfectly true, and it is essential that something be done to rectify this anomaly.

The Minister agreed to receive a depu_ta­tion of potato-growers to d~s~uss the ~xatwn of a maximum and a m1mmurn' pnce for potatoes. I should like to know whe~her he has taken any action in this directwn. I was pleased to see that many peop~e ~ad volunteered to go to agricultural d1stncts within easy distance o.f Brisbane at the wee~­ends to help gather crops and do othm; ~gri­cultural work but I should like the Mm1ster to encourage 'that practice in the other cities of the State.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: I launched that idea last night.

llr. )V ALKER: I am pleased to hear that. I am not surprised, because I know the Minister is alive to all the needs of the situation. The work is voluntary and we cannot expect the people concerned to do the laborious work customarily done by the hard­working farmer. The volunteers are not used to such work. However, common sense will prevail and the volunteers will do the work they are capable of doing in comfort. Great Britain has adopted a policy of intense culti­vation, and we could adopt it here, too, if we could get enough men for the purpose. What I mean is, that if land in England is not being put to its best economic use it is taken away from the ho,lder and put to a better use. Of course, we should not dream of doing that in Queensland, but there are considerable areas in the Burnett V alley, the Mary Valley, and other big agricultural dis­tricts that are used only for the grazing of stock. Although the raising of stock is important, the increase of agricultural pro­duction is of great im'portance, too, and it is a pity that a considerable area of this rich alluvial country is not being used to its utmost capacity.

Queensland usually does not produce enough wheat to meet its own requirements. Surely, something can be done to overcome the shortage~ We are at an advantage com­pared with the South from the viewpoint of wharfage and freight dues. We could grow a great deal more wheat, but unfortunately the return to the grower is not made suffici­ently attractive. At the moment some pri­mary producers are getting a better return by using their land for grazing purposes. If the land could be brought under wheat by the payment of a better price for the commodity we could probably double our population in the districts affected. Indeed,

we could grow a considerably greater quan­tity of all cereals than we do at present, b~t we are all doing it. In some instances th1s is because of war conditions, particularly the shortage of labour, due no doubt to some extent to the fact that the high wages paid in the cities attract labour from' the country.

For instance, the tobacco consumption ~n Queensland is about 6,000,000 lb. _and m Australia; about 25,000,000 lb. Now, m 1932, less than 10 years ago, Queensland produced 2,303,000 lb. and in 1940-1941 produ~ed 2,281,000 lb. There must be somethmg wrong there. It is a pity that we should have to send money from Queensland to oversea countries for the purchase of tobacco. No man and certainlv no Northern man, can tell m'e 'that we have not big areas of suit­able tobacco land in the Marceha district, round Dimbulah and the Walsh River, capable of producing more tobacco than is grown there to-day; why then are we importing so much tobacco when we know that a reasonably good living can be made out of the industry to-day~ It has had the necessary protection, as well as sympathetic administration. I do not often quote the Moore Government, as some hon. members opposite do until one positively gets a headache, but there is one action of that Government that I am pleased to quote. In 1931 the Moore Government imported from America enough seed of leading varie­ties of tobacco to plant 15,000,000 acres of land and it was sold to the grower at cost price. In 1930-31 they distributed 500,000 seed­lings direct from Government seed-beds. They also arranged for the distribution of 4,000,00_0 seedlings in 1931-32. As a result of expen­ments in the Mareeba district over 500 tobacco farms were made available in 1931 under homestead-leasehold {;Onditions. Much similar land near those leaseholds is available for tobacco-growing. If the industry was enlarged we could produce our own require­ments and obviate importations from the United States of America and other coun­tries. I should like to see something done in that direction, because the industry is a good one and should be fostered in every way. The experiments I speak of were started by the administration that prooeded the Moore Government, and when I was appointed Secretary for Agriculture and Stock I continued them in conjunction with the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research and endeavoured to foster the indus­try in every way.

Then take the cotton industry. The Aus­tralian' cotton-spinning mills used 350,000 bales including imported cotton, in pre-war year~. Only 13,000 bales are produced in Australia. There is something wrong there. Admittedly there is not as much money_ in cotton-growing as there is in tobacco-growmg, or wheat-growing, principally because in cotton we must ·compete with an article grown under black-labour conditions in countries where it it produced for almost a song. Nevertheless, we do our best to grow cotton under Aus­tralian conditions. Here is my point: in 1929-1930 we produced l1,031 bales of cotton, and in 1940-41, the year before the war spread to the Pacific, we produced l1,400

84.4 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.]

bales. The latter figure excludes the Burde­kin River crop, estimated at 4,000 bales. There is much similar land in the Burdekin that can be devoted to cotton-growing. In fact, the same a pp lies to many districts, such as the Burnett.

Potato-growing in Queensland has never approached the level where it should be. 1t should be one of our principal crops, but we have never grown sufficient for our own con­sumption, and year afteT year we have impoTted enormous quantities from the South. We have the necessary land in our rich river fiats and suitable conditions for growing large quantities. I admit that in the last few months our people have recognised the importance of potato-growing, but seed has been costly, notwithstanding that £10,000 has been made available by the Common­wealth for the purpose. The average annual production of potatoes in Queensland for the 10-year period from 1927 to 1936 was 17,385 tons and }he average imports \Yere 18,581 tons or 218,714 bags. The average annual exports for the 10-year period from 1927-28 to 1936-37 were . 623 tons ( 9,340 bags) and the net annual Imports 17,957 tons. These figures show that there is room· for greater production.

The Minister spoke quite plainly in his speech and said that soldiers should be asked ~o ~-educe their ra_tion of potatoes. I am mclmed to agree With him, particularly when the present ration interferes with the infant and other life of the eountrv. I think that \Ve are making too much noise ab0ut potatoes and th~ ~·ation for our soldiers. I agree with the Mmister that the soldier can be maintained under waT conditions without eating 12 oz. of potatoes a day. Mr. Speaker and I are samp!€s of men who have not eaten a potato for 12 months. We went through the Boer War campaign together without any potatoes -except what we pinched now and again. (Laughter.) I think it would be agreed that we are as physically fit as any other men of our age. As a matter of fact our main issue over there was biscuits-th~re was no bread and tinned meat-and the biscuits had become very hard from lying out in the sun f?r n;onths. ! have seen dumps of boxes of biscmts covenng a space as big as Parlia­m'ent House.

A comparison of prices over a number of years is a good index as to how we are progressing in agriculture. It is interesting to notice the price of things to-day compared with what we paid for similar articles 40 years ago. When I was a boy we got a 2-lb. loaf of bread for 3d.-and the :flour had to come from South Australia-and to-day we have to pay 5d. for it. Beef was 2d. a lb.; to-day it runs from 9d. to 1s. a lb. A suit of clothes cost £3 or £4, to-day a similar one costs about £8 to £10, and some men are giving as much as £12 or £14 for a suit. I admit the worker has greater comfort now, but the point is: is he any better off~ I know he does not work so hard now, but on the whole is he any better off~ All those high prices are passed on to the unfortunate

farmer, who cannot pass on anything because there is a maximum price for everything he produces. In the early days one could get an imperial pint of beer for 6d. in Gympie, although it had to come by road from Mary­borough, or part of the way by road from Brisbane when the railway line only went to Oaboolture, and to-day one gets a little bit of a nobbler for 7d. or 8d. In 1914-15 we used to argue about the cost of the three '' B 's ''-beef, bread, and butter-but the high prices of to-day show that although the arguments then used carried much weight, they were not sound. \Yhy do we Ilot use them to-day or admit the fallacy of them~

The administration of the Department of Agriculture and Stock, in my opinion, is as good as we want it to be, and that is thTow­ing no small boquet. I think the Minister has done wondeTful work. The additional work that has been placed on his shouldeTs has made the burden too heavy for one man. Yet he and his staff have carried out their duties very successfully, and the affairs of the department aTe quite satisfactory.

I ask the Minister to go into this question of producing at a reasonable price so that we can get a greater numbeT of people on the land and produce here all that we require. Look at the market for onions, for example, yet about 4,000 tons a year have been coming into Queensland.

ilfr. COLLINS (Cook) (11.33 a.m.): At the outset I wish to compliment the Minister on the excellent work he is doing in connec­tion with food production and other things for the Federal Government. I was very pleased to hear the former SecTetary for Agriculture and Stock pay a well-deserved tribute to the Minister-that he believed the administration of the department left nothing to be desiTed. I think that is a very fine tribute from a former Minister-particularly one who sits on the opposite side of the Com­mittee. I am fully in accord with what he said. The Minister is one of the most ener­getic and sincere workers for the welfare of the farmers that we have had for many years. No matter where one goes through the farm­ing districts, the people speak in the highest terms of his activity, sincerity, and fairness.

There is a tremendous amount of urgent work in connection with agriculture. I have just returned from the North, where the problems facing the farmers are very serious. The shortage of man-power has been largely responsible for the difficult position in which they find themselves in preparing their land for crops. I have three in particular in mind, cane, maize, and tobacco. Oanegrowers are experiencing great difficulty in obtaining sup­plies of fertiliser, and although the Minister is doing all that is humanly possible to get it, the fact is that it does not exist. I believe, therefore, that it would be an excel­lent idea to abandon the present system of growing cane from assigned land only and break up new land, without increasing the total area of the grower. A farmer may

Supply. [3 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 84&

have a farm of 150 acres or 200 acres, but llis assigned area may be only 50 acres, and consequently he cannot make use of the remainder of his land for cane production. If he applied to his local sugar-cane prices board-and he can under the Regulation of Sugar Cane Prices Act-for permission to grow his cane on any part of the farm, and that permission was granted, he could break up new land that would not require much fertilising. That would be a considerable help at the present time. Moreover, it would make for the advancement of agriculture in the cane districts i11asmuch as the grower would probably use his present cane land for the growing of fodder crops or grass, or cotton, or mauritius bean. He could thus save fertiliser and renew his land, and would not be doing an injustice to anybody. For the life of me I cannot understand why the men in the industry have stuck so religiously to the principle of assigned areas of land, when really it is tons of sugar that is the only factor in the industry. It is tons of sugar one has to sell and not assigned acres of land. I believe that if every farmer was given a certain tonnage of sugar and was permitted to grow the necessary cane on what­ever land he wished to use, so long as he supplied the cane to the mill within his own area, it would mean a great advancement in the prosperity of the people and an expan­sion of agriculture.

lUr. Brand: Give them definite stability?

Mr. COLLINS: It would give them defi­nite stability. I cannot see any argument against that. I have heard many pers~ns say that it cannot be done, and that they want assigned areas. I believe the onlv reason ·why they want assigned areas is that they may grow more and more tons of sugar, which, in the past, has only helped to destroy the price for their sugar. At the present, on aecount of the war, things are in a state of flux, and this would be an excel­lent time for the farmers to get onto a sounder basis as regards the using of land. I commend that suggestion to the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock as one means of meeting the difficult position that obtains in relation to fertiliser, which is necessary on old land if it is to grow the cane to produce the same quantity of sugar as in the past. In the past the growers have been pulling their own legs by trying to produce more sugar at large expense for fertiliser, believing that they would be able eventually to get an increased assignment, and thus get a little more for themselves at the expense of the rest of the industry. I believe the time is opportune for a change.

There should be an investigation into the supply of kerosene to enable maize-growers to plough their land. On account of the man­power shortage harvesting has been delayed, farmers themselves having had to pick a great deal of their maize, work that is ordinarily done by paid labour, and are late in cleaning up and ploughing. Usually this is done with horses on the Atherton Tableland. Some of

the farmers have tractors, but the majority, I believe, take the sensible view that it is not right for them to be growing horse-feed in the shape of maize and using kerosene or petrol for the ploughing of the land when the use of horses would be more economical.

At 11.42 a. m.,

Mr. MANN (Brisbane) relieved the Chair­man in the chair.

Mr. COLLINS: The condition of the labour market has altered that practice. Farmers cannot plough their land with horses because they have not the time. If a man is to prepare his land for the following year's crop, his ploughing must be finished by the end of November at the outside. When I was in North Queensland the kerosene position was very bad indeed. There were no stocks at Cairns. I took the matter up with the Minis­ter and he has informed me that certain supplies will be made available even if they have to be diverted from other areas that do not need it so urgently. My point is that unless the farmer can get that kerosene now it will be of no use to him, even if he can get unlimited supplies later on, because the land must be ploughed now or no crop will go in. As a matter of fact, I believe there will be a big reduction in planting this year because of that. I commend the Minister for what he has done, and I impress upon him the urgency for following it up closely in order to see that supplies of kerosene, oil, and grease are made available on the Atherton Tableland at once in order that the ordinaq plantings may be made. Of course, I think that even if the Minister does the best he can, it will be impossible to supply enough kerosene. The position is serious and quick action is important to the farmers. Unless that land is put under maize it will lie idle, weeds and rubbish will grow, it will deterior­ate, and men will leave it. No matter how serious the war position is, we cannot afford to allow that land to lie idle for a year.

The hon. member for Cooroora spoke eloquently about the tobacco industry of North Queensland, and all that he said is true. He is deserving of some credit for having done much to foster that industry when he was Secretary for Agriculture and Stock. To-day many people are making a good living from tobacco-growing. The price is better than it was, but one thing that it needs to ensure success is irrigation to offset the indifferent rainfall in the drier areas. I know many farmers who have gone to the trouble of ploughing their land, fertilising it, raising seed, and having everything to the stage when all that was needed was an inch or two of rain, only to lose the whole crop because none fell. With an expenditure of about £300 or £400 to establish a communal water supply for those farmers, all possibility of crop failure would be eliminated.

Irrigation is essential to the successful growing of tobacco. There are great possibili­ties for it, but so far very little has been done. Certainly a great deal more can be done. I know that this is a bad time, when we are at war and when labour is scarce, and

846 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

when materials are almost unprocurable, to make irrigation proposals, but I have advo­cated this ever since I have been in this Assembly, and very little has been done.

There is an almost unlimited area of good tobacco land behind Cooktown on the Laura River, where an adequate water supply could be obtained. There are probably tens of thousands of acres of the very best tobacco land there. One of the best Mareeba growers, Mr. Howell, who carried out experiments at lVIareeba for the Commonwealth Government before tobacco-growing became established there, spent £1,500 on developing land on the Laura, and he tells me that he is con­vinced that some of the best tobacco land in Australia is to be found there. I do not know how true his statement is, but he assures me that he is more satisfied than ever that some of the best tobacco land he knows of exists in that area. What better scheme for the settlement of men on the land can be found than this~ I know of none, so long as the price is fixed at a level that will return a good living to the man who will pioneer the industry and settle a section of the country that is now virtualy uninhabited.

One excellent feature of this suggestion is that all the land up there belongs to the Crown. There is no need to resume any for the settlement of our soldiers. I was sorry a little while ago to see that a move had been made by the Returned Soldiers' League-and it was taken up by the ''Telegraph' '-to repurchase estates for the purpose of settling soldiers on the land. We should use the public estate for the settlement of soldiers on the land because we have an unlimited quan­tity of it, if roads, railways, and water facili­ties are made available. The Crown land could be made available for settlement at less cost than repurchased estates, because repurchasing of estates simply means that we are taking someone off the land who is using it and putting on someone else who does not know so much about it. The estates repurchased after the last war should be suffi­cient evidence, if any were needed, of the fallacy of using repurchased estates for land settlement when so much land belonging to the Crown is lying unused.

I notice that the department has ceased pub­lication of the 'Queensland Agricultural Journal." That is a pity, because it con­tained very valuable information of interest to farmers generally, but I have no doubt that the Minister was actuated by very weighty reasons.

Mr. Nimmo: There are many other publi­cations that might easily have been cut out rather than that one.

Mr. COLLINS: That is so. Digressing for a mojllent, I know that the Department of Mines has ceased to publish the ''Queens­land Mining Journal. ' '

The Secretary for Mines: The war has caused us to cut out a great many things.

Mr. C'OLLINS: I have already said so, and I am not criticising the department for the action it had to take. However, I was

about to suggest that the Department of Agriculture and Stock should publish a hand­book on agriculture. I do not know whether it has already published one; if so, I have not seen it.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Yes, we published one last year.

Mr. COLLINS: I did not know of its existence. I mention the publication of a handbook on agriculture because I know the valuable information that was contained in a handbook published by the Department of Agriculture in New South Wales. It con­tained up-to-the-minute information relating to all crops and their cultivation and it was a handy book of reference for the farmers. It is important that we should put a similar book of reference in the hands of our farmers because after all agriculture is a study and a science, and there are thousands of agricul­turists who do not study their peculiar prob­lems sufficiently. A good agriculturist, for instance, needs some knowledge of plant biology and soil chemistry. Of course, he requires also patience and perseverance, but they are natural with him, and knowledge of soil, crops, fertilisers, and similar matters has to be acquired. It is to these that the agriculturist in Queensland will have to pay more attention in the future than in the past. He will have to give closer attention to farm economy. I believe that in the dairying indus­try alone we could increase the production of butter, cheese and milk by 50 per cent. with­out milking another cow or using another acre of land, simply by improving our farm economy. Of course, I know it is not easy to do it in Queensland because this State is not in the happy position of being able to grow the same good pastures as they can grow on the dairying lands in Victoria, Southern New South Wales, or New Zealand. Queens­land's conditions are tropical, and soft pas­tures will not flourish here as they do there. Nevertheless, I am strongly of the opinion that even with our climate by growing maize and fodder crops belonging to the maize, sorghum, and the millet family, and by using silage and a plentiful supply of lucerne, green and as hay, we could improve our dairying economy to such an extent that the farmers would not be in the parlous position they are in because of low production. I believe that the price for the product has to be increased beyond the existing price, too, but an increase in price is not the basic solution of the dairy· man's problem; the basic solution lies in an improvement in farm economy.

Just how we are going to carry out that reform or show the farmer the best way to stop his present losses and get a better pro­duction I do not know. The officers of the department have done much very good experi­mental work. Sufficient has been done to justify more of it, if we are to get the best results. It would be good economics for the department either to establish a State farm or, if it does not wish to do that, nominate demonstration farms in recognised dairying districts, such as the Atherton Tableland, as guides to what could be done under efficient methods with the department's advice. The department could guarantee the owner returns

Supply. (3 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 847

equa.l at least to those of the, period before his farm was used as a demonstration farm, and in this way it could show how more pro· duction could be obtained from each cow by following best known practice. Dairymen could visit such a farm and see for them· selves the improved methods followed to get better returns.

I am not suggesting that the daiTy farmer is not an efficient man. He obtains the most he can from his land under present conditions, but it is our duty to make him more dricient. He is part and parcel of an important industry. lt is our duty to give the greatest consideration to the human factor. Gatton College, under RCientific conditions, produces over 300 lb. of butter-fat per cow per year, whereas the average production of our dairy­men is not half that quantity. The average farmer has similar natural conditions to those at Gatton College. Some of his land may not be quite as good, but much of our dairy land is quite as good. Of course, the livestock is not as good as that at Gatton College, but it can be improved. The imple· ments and labour of the average dairyman, too, are equal to those at Gatton. All that is needed to be shown our dairymen is how to increase the returns he now obtains from his cows. 'rhe Government have done very good work in helping him to build silos, but that does not go far enough. Ensilage is a good enough feed to keep cows in comlition, but you will not get increased production from it. The cold fact about dairy fm·ming is that it is a very intricate calling, and requires careful study. It is our duty, there· fore, to find out how we can help the man on the land to obtain greater production.

If the price of butter is increased to any great extent it will to some degree be driven off the market, because it has a strong com· petitor in margarine. No Government would be right in preventing the sale of maTgarine if it was made from commodities gro,.·n in this country, and contained the nutrition values available in butter. Again, there may be thousands of poor families who could afford to buy margarine but not butter, and I would not be one to deprive them of the opportunity to do so. The higher we put the price of butter the more we shall tend to force butter off the market.. Australia is the best market for our butter, and the more we have to export overseas the higher the price people in this country will have to pay for what they eat, and the less the quantity that will be used locally. That is one of the most serious and important matters affecting the dairying industry. I know the Minister will give due consideration to that phase of the problem.

Doubtless, during the war it will be diffi· cult to give effect to some of my suggestions, but we must not allow the war to lower our production. On the other hand, the war should be used as a driving force to improve our methods of production.

Mr. BRAND (Isis) (12 noon): This may be the last occasion on which the Minister will submit his Estimates to the Committee. He has recently been offered the position of

Federal Director-General of Agricultural Production, and he may accept it. I believe the Federal Government have made the offer to l1im, and if he accepts it he will carry away with him from this Parliament the best wishes of every hon. member \Yho has sat with him in this Chamber.

Honourable ])!embers: Hear, hear!

lUr. BRAND: I have admired the hon. gentleman's earnestness in the work of his department. His sincerity of purpose, his strong powers of direction and decision, and his capacity for hard work will stand him' in good stead if he accepts the great position offered to him. I believe his acceptance of it would be a good thing for Queensland because we have many agricultural industries here that require sympathetic attention. WB know that m1cler the new set-up due to the war the Commonwealth Government have virtually all the powers required for the development of our agricultural production and other things, and the Minister's kno\r· ledge of problems peculiar in Queensland will enable him to place our case for greater aiel and consideration before the authorities.

We haYe recently been informed by the Federal authorities that they require a certain production from this State. I think they have laid down 600,000 tons of sugar for Queensland alone, 60,000 tons of butter, 13,500 tons of cheese, about 8,000,000 bushels of wheat, three times as much tobacco as we are growing, and an unlimited production of cotton.

A Government ~Iember: And peanuts.

JUr. BRAND: And peanuts. All these great industries are found in this State. When these target production figures were submitted to the Minister it is no wonder he thought a miracle would have to happen if he was to reach them unless there was a different set-up. I believe there must be a different set-up if we are to reach the targets required from this State during the war period, but it is oUT duty to see they are realised. I believe that if more sympathy was extended to the primary producer it would make this production possible. It is essential that the Federal Government show more sympathy than they have.

I think one of the greatest blots on the Minister's record is the recent decision by his department to destroy cream at Dalby that could have been made into butter, and the terrible calamity that happened to the onion-growers recently when, through the advice of an officer of the department of a Labour Government, they suffered a reduction in the price from £50 to £13 10s. a ton.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: On the advice of an officer of the Labour Government~ Who~

Mr. BRAND: The Commissioner of Prices, Mr. Lindsey. We found out that the declaration of the Commonwealth Govern· ment laying down £13 10s. a ton for onions was made on the advice of Mr. Lindsey, the Commissioner of Prices in this State.

848 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Are you positive on that point~

Mr. BRAND: It has already been declared in this Chamber.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: That does not make it true.

Mr. BRAND: The Commonwealth Pri<!es Commissioner has said it. It is a great P_Ity that these things happen. I ~m not gomg to accuse the Minister and his department of being a party to that, because I know he would not recommend anything of the sort. These are the very things that would cause a decrease in production rather than the increase we are aiming at.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Sto?k: Actually half my time is t_aken up undomg foolish decisions of that kmd.

ltr. BRAND: I believe it. Th~t. is what I was coming to. I believe the Mmister has had to undo certain things that have been done by officers; particularly of the Common­wealth Government, who do not s~em to understand the position. Whatever assist~nce was subsequently rendered to the omon­growers was rendered as the result of an appeal from the growers and the Department of Agriculture and Stock of thi~ State to ti:e Federal authorities to recogmse that this industry was deserving of more sympathy.

I recognise the tremendous production figures that we have been asked to :each. I believe the Minister has been trymg very hard to establish new industries in this State to provide the things we have not got and which, owing to the fortunes of war,, we are no longer able to import from countnes cl51se to us. Queensland is capable of producmg many of our pressing requir~~ents_to-d~y. The variation in climatic conditions m different parts of the State ensures the growing of almost all classes of primary products. In addition to wheat, sugar, wool, and beef, we should be able to produce enough rubber, tea coffee cocoa, and other tropical pro­dudts to m'eet our requirements. Of course, I realise that one of our most pressing pro­blems is to discover petroleum, but rubber is very important to the industrial life of our people and our war effort. The Minister has done a fairly good job in endeavouring ~o discover indigenous vines and plants that Will produce som'e form of rubber. I understand that close to Charters Towers a vine has been discovered that will produce rubber. I hope my information is correct and that after t~e experimental stages we shall be able to begm a new industry, but I hope the hon. gentle­man will not lose sight of the fact that in North Queensland there are large areas capable of producing the ordinary commercial rubber, and if we must produce in Australia I do not think the people of Australia will balk at paying a price that will aEow pro­ducers to pay a reasonable standard of wages. I realise that a long period must elapse before rubber trees become productive, but we should start as soon as possible, the Commonwealth Government to recognise their obligations in

any responsibility accepted by the Queens­land Government in launching out on such an industry.

I compliment the Minister on endeav~uring to establish what may be a very good mdus­try for Queensland. The production of. derris can be of great importance to Australia. ~t produces a non-poisonous insecticide that IS a substitute for arsenic. In recent months much consideration has been given to the growing of vegetables, but owing to the many pests that beset them it is necessary to have a solution with which they can be sprayed. Derris dust, which to-day cannot be imported, will supply this need. Already the Minister has established this plant in North Queens­land, and I commend him for it. I under­stand he is experimenting with the root of. the plant in various parts of the State to ascertain where it will thrive best. If we are able to supply a material that will keep vegeta:bles free of pests we shall have done a great service to Australia, because the difficulty of finding non­poisonous solutions for spraying of vege­tables is very great. As hon. members know, we in this Parliament have had to pass legislation prohibiting the use of poisonous solutions on vegetables, and if we can produce a non-poisonous solution for the eradication of pests on vegetables we shall have done a great service, not only to our own people, but to mankind in general. As is well known, a considerable number of people have been injured in health because certain solutions have been used on vegetables. There is much to be done in these times. All must help, and those who criticise should be pre­pared with constructive suggestions to help those who are charged with the responsibility of _producing the things required by the natiOn.

The hon. member who has just resumed his seat referred to the many difficulties con­fronting the pride of Australian agricultural industries-sugar industry. This great industry is in need of all the help that can be rendered to it. Of course, its chief diffi­culties are not the concern of this depart­ment, but the Minister could help it by obtaining the fertilisers that are necessary to its welfare. I understand that representa­tives of the sugar industry have had many important conferences with the Minister in an endeavour to settle upon the right type of fertilisers to use in order that they might achieve the production target expected of them', and I am led to believe that at long last we shall be receiving some supplies of nitrate. We know that we cannot obtain all the fertilisers needed for cane-growing, but the Minister's representations have resulted in the supply of certain nitrates for Queensland, and, although th8i price is high, the important point is that we have been able to get some. Perhaps as the weeks go by we shall be able to get more.

Failing an adequate supply of suitable fertilisers, I believe that areas of land that are not under cane in the various mill areas to-day will have to be cultivated if we are to produce the amount expected of us. I am

Supply. [3 NovEMBER.] Supply. 849

sa~isfied that in every mill area there is enmgh new land that is capable of produc­ing the required amount of cane without fer­tili:ers. I know that the man-power position is 1erious, and I am confident that it will bemme even worse, for we must remember tha; the war must have first call upon all avaliable man-power, but every opportunity shodd be given to those remaining in the ind]stry to produce sugar in the best possible way. This can be achieved by amending our la»s to permit of the transfer of assign­meuts to new land. The organisations in the incustry, and the officers under the direction of the Minister have agreed to transfer as,ignments from worn-out lands to fertile lards on the grower 's farm, if the laml is anilable. The transfer of assignments, how­ev:Jr, makes it difficult to control production, and as farm peaks are established in the industry we should adhere to them especially in these times. There are many problems to be dealt with, and whoever may be Secre­tary for Agriculture and Stock I hope that the Government will give the industry the sympathetic consideration and that help it expects and deserves in order that it may play its part in helping Australia and the Allied Nations.

I hope that before the Minister leaves his department he will give some consideration to the problems that will affect the wool industry after the war. We know that under the present system Df appraisement of wool our clips are paid for by the British and Australian Governments at a certain price. There may be differences of opinion as to what that price should be. Already in Eng­land the consumers of wool are looking for­ward to the time when the present system of appraisements will come to an end and the open market will be restored, so that there will be a tendency to reduce the price of WDol throughout the world. I know, and you know, too, Mr. Mann, that buildings are being erected in Brisbane £or the purposes of stor­ing wool, and while that wool will be of con­siderable importance to us economically it will have an unfavQurable effect upon the wool to be produced in the immediate post­war years, and I hope that whatever influence the State Government may be able to use in the direction of helping the industry, they will recognise the importance of maintaining its stability by continuing the existing appraisement system. I believe that the appraisement system is the one best suited to the industry. It is one under which the prices fixed for wool are not as high as those that have ruled in the past under the open­market system, but at least appraisement has made for stability and enabled the producer to earn a reasonable living. He has sounuer means of carrying on his business_. than formerly. We know, too, that although some people engaged in wool production have made fortunes, many have been ruined, and there was a time when it was even doubted whether the industry could be carried on successfully.

The primary producers have been asked to produce more cottDn and tobacco, and I believe that we might more easily achieve

our targets by a favourable adjustment of the price factor. I believe that the payment of a reasonable price for cotton would be the means of bringing about the production of larger quantities than hitherto. I should like to impress upon the Minister that, apart from the production in the Burdekin area, the crop this year will not exceed 9,000 bales. That is not a satisfactory state of affairs. We should bend our energies to making the industry a big one for Queensland, but we do not seem to be getting anywher,e near filling the cotton requirements of Australia. If the Burdekin continues in cotton production it may help to meet existing difficulties, but more help than is given to-day is required. For instance, to-day the price. of cotton lint is ls. 3d. a lb., but if 2s. a lb. for cotton lint was paid it would make. very little difference to the. price of the finished garment worn by t~e consumer,. because there is really very httle cotton m a cotton garment, but it would be all-important to the producer. I suggest to the Minister that he try to induce the authorities to agree to the payment of Sd. a lb. for seed cotton, because in that way I believe we should be able to produce large quantities in Queensland. Evidently Queens­land is suited to the production of cotton. Of course, I am not unmindful of the fact that the man-power problem is acute, but if the producer was offered a satisfactory price it would be found that farmers all over the State would immediately begin to break up land happy in the knowledge that it would pay them to do so. I know the Minister can wield very telling influence with the Federal authorities, and I hope that he will do so on behalf of the cotton producers. When he last asked the Federal authorities for ls. 3d. a lb. for lint the cost of imported lint was ls. ,5:d. a lb. landed in this country. The pro­ducers in Australia were asked to pay better wages, and be content with a lower price than that paid for imported cotton.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND EMPLOYMENT (Hon. T. A. Foley, Nor­manby) (12.24 p.m.): The note struck by the hon. member who has just resumed his seat with regard to cotton is attracting the attention of many thousands of people in the ?lectorate I represent, and in the cotton-grow­mg areas generally. Experience over a num­ber of years has shown that the yield from cotton on the average has been so very small that the average grower finds that he can­n~t make a success of the industry compared With other crops at prices ruling to-day.

I am not going to advocate any particular price for cotton. I am going to suggest that the Minister give eonsideration to a thorough investigation of this industry with a view to inducing the Federal authorities to revise the price agreed on for the duration of the. war and one year thereafter. We have over the years established a price-fixing system for the sugar industry, and so built up a tropical industry in Queenslan:d that Australia is proud of. That is due, principally, to the price that the Commonwealth authorities and the States agreed on. The consuming public also contribute their quota without complaint.

850 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

I can recall the time when the price of cane was lls. a ton, and the best price that could be obtained on analysis was round about 22s. 6d. a ton. The sugar industry was then a starving industry dependent on cheap labour. The canecutter worked 12, 13, and 14 hours a day to get a reasonable-sized cheque. He worked like a slave at the low price that the sugar farmers were able to pay at the time. To-day the reverse is the case. Land values in the industry are high and conditions pros­perous, while workers, instead of getting 22s. 6d. a week and rations not fit for a kangaroo dog-as then given to mill hands­get an award rate of wages and decent rations. The canecutter is thus enabled to get a reason­able return for his labour. The same could

-- Acreage.

--

1933-34 .. .. . . .. .. 68,203 1934-35 .. .. .. .. .. 43,397 1935-35 .. .. .. . . .. 54,947 1936-37 .. .. .. .. . . 62,200 1937-38 .. .. .. .. .. 52,692 1938-39 .. .. .. .. . . 66,470 1939-40 .. .. .. .. . . 41,212 1940-41 .. .. .. .. .. 61,365

It will be noted that the average yield over the years I have mentioned has been exceed­ingly low, working out at approximately 300 lb. of cotton to the acre. That has been due to climatic conditions and pests of all descrip­tion, and the effect is shown in the decrease in the number of growers.

In 1932-33, when the Labour Government were elected, we found just on 600 share­farmers in the Callide Valley alone in receipt of rations. They were unable to put in their crops owing to unfavourable climatic condi­tions that had operated for the three seasons prior to that date. We introduced what was known as the Cotton Production Relief Loan Scheme whereby advances could be made to farmers to enable them to put in their crop, attend to it, and harvest it. It is rather interesting to note the amounts advanced and the number of farmers to whom adyances were made during the years from 1932-33 to 1941-42. The figures are as follows:-

Numbers Amount Assisted

Season. Advanced. Farmers. Share Total. Farmers.

£ 1932-33 28,886 607 138 745 1933-34 16,573 452 108 560 1934-35 11,462 154 218 372 1935-36 15,723 176 286 462 1936-37 14,317 81 369 450 1937-38 26,277 156 549 705 1938-39 22,576 92 492 584 1939-40 36,B51 132 593 725 194Q-41 66,671 284 1,011 1,295 1941-42 61,971 271 842 1,113

£300,807 2,405 I 4,606 7,011

The figures show that immediately the average farmer could do without cotton-growing, he dropped it in favour of the more remunerative dairying, which has developed greatly in that

be said to a lesser extent of the farnBr in the dairying industry. As a result of thorough investigation, organisation, md representation by the right authority, the industry has been built up to such an extmt that to-day, notwithstanding the abnornal times, a measure of stability exists, and 'ro­duction is much above the consuming ab'lity of the people of Australia in normal tines. But the cotton industry is still laboming along.

I desire to point out from some figure! I have compiled just what the average yield has been in this State and what it works cut for each individual farmer. These figuJes are-

Yield Per Gross Value Per Yield. Acre. Value. Acre.

Lb. Lb. £ £ 8. d. 17,718,000 260 283,000 4 3 0 26,924,000 620 397,000 9 3 0 20,785,000 378 378,000 6 18 0 19,199,000 309 330,000 5 6 0 11,793,000 224 319,000 6 1 0 13,688,000 206 437,000 6 10 0 11,528,000 279 308,000 7 9 0 15,869,159 257 424,377 6 2 0

area in the period I have just referred to, leaving the share-farmer as the main cotton­producer in the district.

I have had some figures taken out by some of my officers relating to share-farmers­although that term is really a misnomer because in most cases the man concerned takes an area of 30 or 40 acres, falls it, clears it, and plants cotton, and harvests the crop, if any, and the land then reverts to the owner, who plants Rhodes grass on it.

The following particulars apply to the case of an average share farmer on first year scrub land:-U sua! acreage .. Time spent on share farm

(March-September) Cost of preparation ..

Picking cost ..

Purchase of bales

30 acres. 30 weeks.

Scrub burning £1 per acre, planting seed 1s. 8d. per acre, labour 2s. per acre, cultivating 3, cultivations average, number is one, 5s. to 6s. per acre (equal to £1 9s. 2d. per acre).

14s. 6d. per 100 lb. (average).

5 at 4s. 3d., equalling £1 ls. 3d.

Purchase of bags and twine £1. Cartage . . . . . • 3s. to 6s. per bale,

averaging 4s. 6d.,

Average per acre crop 15 bales-£3 7s. 6d.

250 lb. at 5!d. a lb. guaranteed.

Gross return to share farmer £164 Is. 3d., equal to £6 lls. 3d. per week.

Production and harvesting costs total £103 lls. 3d.

Of the work involved, the average share­farmer would carry out-

£ 8. d. All clearing 30 0 0 Half crop picking 27 3 9 All cultivating 8 5 0 All planting 3 0 0

£68 8 !)

Supply. [3 NovEMBER.] Supply. 851

The average share-farmer gets in an aver­age season a net return of £130 for a period of 30 weeks. His receipts would be £164 1s. 3d., and he would be obliged to pay out (not including his keep) £35 2s. 6d., leaving £128 18s. 9d. = £4 5s. ll~d. a week without food. In other words, he gambles on the chance of the crop, and the average return over a period of years would be in the vicinity of the basic wage.

To give now an illustration of a share­farmer going onto cultivated land, I come to these figures-U sua! acreage .. Time spent on share farm Cost of preparation ..

Picking costs Purchase of bales . . . . Purchase of bags and twine .. Cartage .. . . .. Gross return to share farmer

30 acres. 30 weeks. Ploughing £1 to £1 10s.

per acre1 harrowing 3s. to 3s. 6d. per acre, planting seed ls. Sd. per acre, labour 2s. per acre, cultivating, 3 culti­vations, one in lieu of chipping and thinning, 5s. to 6s. per acre.

14s. 6d. per lOO lb. £lls. 3d. £1. £4 ls. Od. £196 17s. 6.d.

The average share-farmer would carry out work-

Ploughing Planting .. Half cultivating Half picking ..

His receipts would be Less

Net

£ s. d. 7 10 0 3 0 0

12 7 6 32 12 6

£45 10 0

£ s. d. .. 196 17 6 .. *45 0 0

.. £151 17 6

* Not including his own keep.

From this amount he has to feed himself, and is expected to pay to the farmer on whose land he was share-farming-on whose culti­vated land he planted-a percentage accord­ing to the agreement entered into between them.

These two illustrations, which have been carefully compiled, give hon. members some indication of the returns the average farmer or share-farmer could expect from cotton­growing under present conditions.

Mr. Nicklin: And the whole of the return is dependent on weather conditions.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND EMPLOYMENT: As the Leader of the Opposition points out, the return is dependent on seasonal conditions. Though the season may have been ideal for cotton-growing, and the grower visualises the harvesting of a good crop, I have frequently seen bugs, sap-suckers, and other pests attack the plants.

Mr. Dart: Do they irrigate ae all?

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND EMPLOYMENT: There has been irriga­tion of cotton in the Theodore area for some years, and although it is possible under ideal conditions to get as high as 2,000 lb. of

cotton to the acre with irrigation the average in the Theodore area, where the growers have had years of experience, was approximately 1~ bales an acre per year, and, consequently, taking the costs involved and the charges for water, the farmer irrigating his land is not much better off than the grower who gets a reasonable return by way of dry farming. It appears that with time and the improve­ment in cultivation methods there may be some improvement on the figures mentioned, but I have given the Committee an outline of the position that faces us to-day.

The approximate average guaranteed price for certain high-quality cotton of certain grade and staple is 15d. The average for last year was approximately 12.5d., according to the report of the Cotton Board, which can be seen in the Auditor-General's report. The fact that this industry has already passed the £250,000 mark, even under the conditions I have outlined, is at least an indication that a return can be won from this commodity that will give more encouragem'ent for the growing of cotton. If that was done over a period of years, I feel confident that as a result of their experience farmers would be able to improve their methods of cultivation and be able to produce the quantity of cotton even with a lower price for the·ir products.

It takes years to learn these things by experience, even .agricultural experts who have been conducting experimental farms have gained their knowledge only after years and years of experience in the actual cultivation of the soil in producing this or any other

. crop. I suggest, therefore, that the Secre­tary for Agriculture and Stock have the matter thoroughly investigated with a view to determining whether the industry can carry on with the present price for cotton, or it is desirable that an increase be made. If it is found that the problem: will be solved by improved cultivation methods, then I sug­gest that the Minister circularise all farmers with a view to teaching them the best methods of cultivating this important crop. At least, I suggest that an investigation be made to ascertain where the difficulty lies and what can be done to place this industry on a better footing than it occupies at. present.

Mr. CLAYTON (Wide Bay) (12.45 p.m.): In a primary-producing State such as Queens­land, the department we are now discussing is the most important of all State activities, and I am sorry to see that, there has been a reduction in the staff from 215 to 183. Of course, I realise that that has been brought about by a desire on the part of many officers to go and do a bigger job than they can do in the department, and I give them credit for that. The increase in the amount voted for this department seems to be an indication that the Minister is going to be more enthu­siastic about land matters this year. I have been in this Chamber with him for many years now, and I must admit that he has been very sympathetic to the primary producers-except for the buffalo-fly tax-and he has been enthu­siastic a.bout his work. I have occasion to

852 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

approach many Ministers on various matters, and I have found that the present Secretary for Agriculture and Stock has not only listened but helped me to help my constituents, and he has always given me a fair deal.

This department is important because the success of this State lies in the development and prosperity of our primary industries, and I trust that when this war is over steps will be taken to establish secondary industries here to treat our raw products. If that is done, we shall be doing something in the interests of primary production and the State. In pass­ing, might I mention that it is unfortunate that we have not the report of the depart­men:t ~ However, I suppose' it is because the Minister has been busy and with his reduced staff he has not been able to compile it. The report was always read with the keenest interest by those associated with agriculture.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: The difficulty has not been with my depart­ment but with the Government Printer. The report has been over with the Government Printer for some time.

)[r. CLAYTON: Then I shall have to transfer the blame to the Government Printer.

To-day farmers are leaving the land, and that serious aspect of our agricultmal life calls for the most urgent and earnest con­sideration. The man on the land has expeTi­enced adverse seasonal conditions arising from recurring droughts, and although he and his wife and family have laboured long and patiently to the best of their ability, they have not been able to increase the produc­tivity of the land because of the acute short­age in man-power. That is a very serious problem', indeed. Had we given it greater attention in the early stages of the war we might have been able to overcome some of our difficulties. However, I know the Minis­ter is doing all in his power to bring about increased production, but how can we increase production if we are not given the man-power requisite for the purpose. Man-power is short, and so farmers are leaving the land. The position is becoming more serious every day. The low price for primary products has contributed very largely to this unpleasant and unfavourable aspect of our agricultural economy.

Let me illustrate the effect that the short­age of man-power is having upon primary pro­duction to-day. I cannot do better than quote the speech delivered by Mr. Francis, Federal member for Moreton, as published in Federal '' Hansard'' of 30 September, 1942. He said-

'' The Port Ourtis Co-operative Dairy Association Limited has seven butter fac­tories, which are situated at Bundaberg, Gladstone, Rockham·pton, Mackay, Wowan, Biloela, and Monto, and cheese factories at Bracewell and Theodore. The general manager of this association, Mr. Wilson, stated that the number of suppliers reached its peak in February, 1941, with a total of 3,694. Twelve months later the number had decreased by 116. Mr. Wilson said-

'The shortage of man-power on farms is now becoming more apparent as Jlmny people who had share-farmers cannot now get them. As an instance, Mr. Willert, of Berajondo, who has three dairy farms of about 100 cows each. run by share-farmers, has closed one dairy, is closing another in August, and may close the third one later.'

That is a very serious situation. Mr. vVilson proceeds-

' Mr. A. Dougall, of Miriam V ale, is closing his dairy, and he told me that other people in his district are going to close down and only graze cattle for the meat­works. Many farmers are reducing the num'ber of milking cows in their dairies, owing to members of their families being called up and the scarcity of labour. A Mr. Jense, Coast road, Bundaberg, is an example--sons called up, reducing from 40 to 10 cows.'

If a dairY herd was reduced from 40 cows to 10 co>>~s it would be hardly worth one's while using th_e yards and separators, and especially the milking machines. Mr. Wilson goes on to say-

' Mr. G. B. Mouatt, chairman of direc­tors of our association, whose farm is at Mungungo, carried 60 dairy cows, and will now reduce 25 through shortage of labour. Many other instances can be recorded if necBssary. The butter price, to a great extent, enters into this question of labour. The dairying industry is noted for the low wages paid to farm workers. Farmers cannot pay good wages on the price they receive for butter. My opinion is that, with a better price for butter, production will increase. If farmers are to receive a price comparable with that paid in other industries, and appropriate to the hours worked, the price of butter should be 2s. per lb.' ''

In that connection I should like to explain very clearly that if the wages paid to farm workers are low it is because the primary producers are not paid enough for their pro­duct by the consum·ers to enable them to pay better wages to their workers.

Again in that connection I want to say very pl~inly that members of the Country Party on this side of the Chamber were sorely disappointed at the action o.f Mr: ~cully, the Minister for Commerce, m dec1dmg to give a subsidy of £2,000,000 to the dairying industry instead of giving the mone:y: by way of a straight-out grant to the mdustry. I as a dairyman, know what the primary p~oducer is up against when he is receiving 1s. 1d. or 1s. 2d. a lb. for butter. Some­thing should be done to see that the primary producer, especially the dairyman, has greater opportunities. We must consider the rising costs of everything he requires. I have not been able to cultivate my farm because I cannot obtain the man-power, and the cost of everything I have to buy is rising. Those costs have been increasing year by year. Then we must take into consideration the

Supply. [3 NovEMBER.] Supply. 853

hours a man, his wife, and children aTe com­pelled to work in the dairying industry. All the factors I have m'entioned make his con­ditions such that he cannot afford to pay the wage for necessary labour. I am hope­ful that the Federal Government-! think the Minister will when he goes down to Can­berra. as I understand he will-will be impressed by the representations of the indus­try, and that they will do something worth while for it. Take, for instance, the dairy­man, who has bought a property on terms. The price of butter decreases, but his encum­brances on the property do not. One can imagine his plight. His mortgage sleeps with his wife and himself, so to speak, and he eventually rtalises that he would be much happier in the city working for a fixed wage and fixed hours. It is for that reason that I quoted extracts from the Federal '' Han­sard'' to show what is happening to people in our dairying districts. Hardships occa­sioned by weather conditions, low prices for his product, and labour conditions have forced many of our dairymen off the land into the cities.

I as a primary producer and a dairyman am unable to work my tractor and rotary cultivator to produce the food necessary for my stock. I cannot obtain the necessary labour to use those im'plements. The position has become very serious. Employees realise that they are better off working in the cities and towns on the basic wage and with a 44-hour week, and cannot be induced to return to the country to work on the land. That makes the farmer wonder whether it is worth while working the land and whether he would not be better off with the higher wage ruling in the cities. vVe must conserve fodder to provide against recurring droughts. If a dry spell should occur in the next thTee or four months what would be the position of our dairy herds~ We certainly might be able to keep them alive, but we should not obtain from them the production we ought to get. If we were able to engage labour we should be able to conserve fodder to keep our cattle alive, but if we are com­pelled to neglect the conservation of fodder who will be able to pay £12 a ton for feed to keep his herd alive~ Even if one were able to buy fodder at that price, a cow could eat its head off in no time, so to speak with fodder at that price. '

At 2.15 p.m.,

The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair.

Mr. CLAYTON: I know the Minister has been keen on pasture improvement, and I can assure hon. members there is much room for something to be done in that connection. I have seen some of the experimental pasture plots that have been laid down. We should be pleased to get advice from the experts in the Minister's department in the matter.

I now turn to the other side of the picture -the eradication of noxious weeds that are to be found in the pastures of the dairying industry. As the Minister knows, when the noxious weeds get into land adjacent to the pasture-improvement plot, they are a great

menace, and something should be done to eradicate these noxious weeds, which are retarding the progress of the dairying indus­try. Some of these pests are not confined to the pasture lands of the dairying industry but are found in abundance in our forestry reserves which are upstream from the dairy fiats.

Jir. lUalwr: Real seed beds.

lUr. CLAYTON: ~bsolutely. What I should like to see 1s more co-oTdination between the Secretary for Public Lands, who controls the Sub-Department of Forestry, and the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock to see if something cannot be done to prevent the seeds of these noxious weeds from being carried downstream to the dairy lands. These noxious weeds adversely affect the fiavouT of the cream and the butter, which diminishes the am·ount of our first-quality butter for export or home consumption; therefore, it is imperative to see they are eradicated and that only the best grasses are feel to our dairy herds. Not only forestTy areas, but reseTves and roads controlled by the local authorities are infested with these pests, which are allowed to go to seed and thus infest clean areas. Owing to the lack of man-power, we are not able to keep our pastures free of these weeds. Not only is Noogoora burr a serious menace to our pasture lands, but when it Teaches the four-leaf stage it becomes poisonous. Something must be done to pro­tect our dairy herds.

Mr. Nimmo: Pull it up.

ltfr. CLAYTON: I should like to see the hon. gentleman do a day's work pulling it up. He would pull up. (Laughter.)

Lantana is another menace to the dairying industry. I should like the Minister to pay attention to what I have to say in regard to mat or carpet grass, a curse that was intro­duced into this State some years ago. I can assure the MinisteT that if something is not done to prevent mat grass from spreading as it is now spreading the position will become very serious. One may be able to fatten bullocks on it but one cannot get milk from cows that graze on it. My property is on the bank of the Mary River and there I can see it spreading, cutting the paspalum and a sort of couch grass right out. It will become a serious menace to the dairying industry, and I ask the Minister to see whether something can be done to get rid of it.

The Minister has been interested in the pro· pagation of the lantana bug. I know his efforts to establish it in the northern part of the State have been successful, but, unfor­tunately, very little progress has been made in South Queensland. The hon. gentleman was good enough to give me two colonies with with which to experiment, but owing to the wet conditions prevailing during the winter the bug has not proved a success up to the present.

I take this opportunity of congratulating Mr. Reid, the editor of the ''Queensland Agricultural J ou'rnal.'' I have read the publication over a long period, and can

854 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supp~.

assure hon. members that it is full of infor­mation that benefits primary producers. Mr. Reid also gives very interesting informa­tion in his Sunday morning talks over the air, and in the interests of the people of the State I trust the Minister will permit Mr. Reid to continue his good work.

In conclusion, I must express the hope that the Minister will be with us for some time to come and his services available to us. If he decides to leave this State, a Minister now sitting on the front bench may take his place.

Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (2.23 p.m.): I notice that a Director of Agriculture is to be appointed by the Commonwealth Government. Of course, I do not know who is to be appointed to the position, but I think that the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock in Queensland is well suited to the position. L always speak of a man as I find him, and I must say of the hon. gentleman that he is very energetic and has always shown a considerable interest in his work. In fact, it may be said that he has specialised in it. I am wondering who will replace the hon. gentleman if he accepts the position now offering. I know of only about one member on the Government benches who might fill the bilL However, I wish the hon. gentle­man well wherever he goes. Of course, I do not wish to be rid of him at all while the present Government are in power, at any rate. He has done good work.

I always look forward to reading the report of the department, and I am sorry it is not available to us at present. In answer to the hon. member for Wide Bay, the Minister stated that the Government Printer was too busy to print it in time. Had the hon. gentle­man telephoned me I could have arranged for the report to be printed in Toowoomba with­out any loss of time. I should like to have the report. I wish to read of all ma:tters pertaining to the department, particularly the activities in the North, where I have not been abie to travel recently. However, I am not going to blame him under the circum­stances.

Subject to weather conditions, and, of course, several other conditions, the wheat yield of the Darling Downs and Maranoa is estimated at 5,500,000 bushels. Queensland's consump­tion, taking into account the extra popula­tion, is approximately 7,000,000 bushels. Con­sidering these facts, I most strongly object to any restriction of wheat planting, at any :rate in Queensland. I realise that all these things have to be propped up, so to speak. The day will come when nothing, sugar or anything else, will be propped up, but that day is not yet.

The Secretary for PubUc Lands: Sugar is not propped up.

Mr. YEATES: That is beside the ques­tion. I have my idea about that.

Mr. Maher: I shall deal with the Minister privately. (Laughter).

Mr. YEATES: I feel t:hat it was a ter­rible mistake to restrict wheat-growing in

Queensland. I know the Minister was over­ruled by Mr. Scully 's department.

Tile Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: There is a very interesting story about that and I shall tell it when I get up.

~Ir. YEATES: I know that the Minister has tried to do many things for Queensland, but has not been allowed to do them. He has been prevented by the Federal Government, but he did the best he could, and I care not whether his label is Labour or anything else. The point is that he has done good work.

llir. Clayton: He is not King O'Malley.

lUr. YEATES: We can deal with the King 0 'J\Ilalley people later. When we are forced to import wheat from the Riverina, our railways have to be used to transport it, and, God knows, the railways are working hard enough now. They are doing a big job, working night and day, sending as many as 60 trains past certain stations-which I need not name here-in 24 hours.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: And we did not bring any wheat from the Riverina.

llir. YEATES: We are causing trouble by not allowing our men to plant enough wheat to supply our needs.

I come now to the dairying industry in which the producers are living-as you know, Mr. Brassington, having heard all the speeches this session-on the bread-line. I know it. Their income is far too low, and although I do not propose to labour the question of the long hours they work I do know that their hours are long, that their children often milk the cows before going to school, and then fall asleep in school, and I regret that exceedingly. Their position is indeed serious and the Government's proposal to grant a subsidy is no way of relieving their burden. The only solution to this trouble is to grant a higher price for the product, and I am sure the average person in this country is just as willing as I am to pay that higher price. We are all workers, and, when I say that I refer to the manual labourer, the man who is using a pick and shovel, the engineer, the hewer of coal, the fireman in the railway, in fact everyone in the community. We are all willing to pay Is. lld. a lb. for our butter. During the 1914-18 war we were paying up to 2s. a lb. and more for it, and no-one grumbled. I realise that if we increase the price by 3d. or 4d. the farmer gets only half of that because of the 50 per cent. exported and sold at a low rate, but I am not satisfied with present prices. I know our Minister has done his best, and if he goes I hope whoever follows him will ask him for a 24-hour conference in order to study the matter and evolve some way of doing something for the dairying industry.

The next subject to which I wish to refer is the cotton industry. Cotton is required for certain purposes to-day, and I remind hon. members that it is essential that some steps be taken to increase production. We must not lose sight of the fact, however, that £20,000, more or less, was spent on a cotton

Supply. [3 NOVEMBER.) Supply. 855

ginnery at Dalby about 15 or 20 years ago, but the industry has moved away, and I should like the Minister to give us the history of that ginnery. Certain politicians asked us to grow more cotton. The farmers grew it, that money was spent on the ginnery, and to-day there is nothing there but fiat land, just a plain with a few box trees. Something is wrong and I should like to know what it is.

I notice from the Estimates that £240 is required for the caretaker at the Hermitage farm. ~What are we doing there~ Are we using it for some new purpose 9 If not, let us lease it to somebody or sell it. Do some­thing about it, do not just have a caretaker.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: I shall tell you privately, but not publicly, but I can assure you that there is very sound reason for having a caretaker there.

lUr. YEATES: I am glad to hear ii:, and I believe the Minister when he tells me any­thing. I have confidence in him, which is more than I can say about everyone, especially some of those persons in the Feueral sphere, whom I can mention to-night, all being ~well.

I should like to know what rent is being paid for Bayard 's buildings, just over the bridge, where the Bureau of Rural Develop­ment is housed.

I do not know whether the hon. member for Wide Bay has been specially favoured by the Minister in the matter of colonies of lantana bugs, but I should like some for liberation on the Toowoomba range to see if they will destroy the lantana there.

That is all I desire to say on the vote. I look forwm·d to the replies by the Minister ant! especially those relating to the bigger things, such as dairying, wheat, and the cotton needed for army purposes.

:il'Ir. M:AHER (West Moreton) (2.34 p.m.): I regret that I find it necessary to have to drop a stick of bombs on the Minister to-day. The occasion arises out of the action of an inspector m1der the jurisdiction of his department in wantonly destroying eight cans of cream at Dalby as punishment of three cream-suppliers who had the temerity to send their cream to the Dalby butter factory, where they had been supplying it for years and in which they were shareholders.

The SecrMary for Agriculture and Stoek: Do you think that is the whole story~

}fr. M:AHER: I know the whole story. It arises out of the zoning conditions laid down by the Minister under which these men, Messrs. Willacy, Bridgewater, and Muller, who live 12 to 13 miles from the Chinchilla cheese factory, were singled out--

Tlie Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: No.

Mr. M:AHER: Singled out from 30 other suppliers in that part of the district--

The Secret.'lry for Agriculture and Stock: They were not.

:il'Ir. JliAHER: To send the milk to the Chinchilla cheese factory despite the fact that within three or four miles of Chinchilla there are cream suppliers who have not been called upon by the Minister under the zoning plan to supply milk to the Chinchilla cheese fac­tory.

'l'he SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE ANn STOCK: Mr. Brassington, I rise to a point of order. The hon. member for West Moreton has said that three persons were singled out.

.!Ur. Brand: He has the right to say that.

The SECRE't'ARY FOR AGRICULTURE ANn STOCK: He has not the right to say that. The statement is objectionable to me because it is untrue, and I ask that it be withdrawn.

JUr. Brand: An hon. member has the right to make his own case.

Tl!e SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: It is not true.

The CHAIRJUAN: Order! I ask the hon. member for West Moreton to withdraw the statement.

.il'I~·. MAHER: I must obey the Chair and withdraw the statement. The fact remains that only three in 30 suppliers in that area were asked to supply milk to the Chinchilla cheese factory, so that there is not a great deal of difference in the use of terms. If they were not actually singled out with delibera­tion, at least only three in the area were asked to send their milk to the Chinchilla cheese factory, while all the time there are dairy­men close to the town of Chinchilla who are permitted to send cream to the butter factory. Anybody who has had any experi­ence of a cheesEJ factory will know that it is a fairly arduous job to send milk daily over a long distance to a cheese factory. Milk is more bulky than cream, and it requires more cans to transport it. The tedious job of sending milk seven days a week to a cheese factory soon becomes irksome to suppliers. I had some experience myself some years ago, in conjunction with my partner, Mr. Wilkin­son. We were optimistic enough to think we could make some money by starting a cheese factory in the Yelarbon district. We had the option of starting in the town or out in the settlements where milk was pro­duced, but on listening to the businessmen in the town who wanted to see the town go ahead, we were persuaded to erect a cheese factory in the township itself. That was the rock on which we foundered. ''A new broom sweeps clean,'' and in the beginning there were many milk-suppliers who brought in their milk over considerable distances but after two or three months the enthusiasm shown in running in with horse and cart and utility began to wane and before long it became apparent to us that there was only a short life ahead of our factory. After running that factory for 12 months we found a man who was more optimistic than we were and he bought us out. I can assure you we were glad to get out, and all that Mr. Wilkin­son and I got out of that cheese factory was

856 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

experience. It illustrates my point that it is not fair to make people bring milk a long distance. I ask the Minister: was it a right thing to make a demand on these three sup­pliers, who live 13 miles from a cheese factory at Chinchilla, to take their milk into Chin­chilla whilst he allowed other dairymen to ~eparate their milk and supply cream to a butter factory, notwithstanding that they were living nearer to the town of Chinchilla~ How does he explain the justice of a zoning scheme of that kind~

When these proposals for zoning areas in the Chinchilla district were first m!lde, the J·andowae butter factory, a branrh of the Darling Do,vns Co~operativc Dairy Company, telegraphed to the Director of Dairying, Mr. Rice, inviting him to visit the district, inspect it, and go into matters associated with zoning on the ground before anything definile was decided. Mr. Rice did not make the visit as requested in the invitation. Instead he sent this rather peremptory telegram-

'' Action being taken to fill vats at Chinchilla.''

That was almost a snub to the Jandowae factory, which made a perfectly sensible pro­posal to Mr. Rice to go up and inspect the position on the spot and go into the question of anomalies in zoning, but the invitation was not accepted. The men associated with the Jandowae factory held out the olive branch by asking for an inspection of these matters on the spot. I have not the slightest doubt that to-day the Minister recognises that butter is No. 1 essential in zoning. He knows that interests not only in this city but elsewhere in Australia engaged in processing cheese are urging him to bring pressure on these men to supply milk for the processing of cheese. He is listening to those manu­facturers.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Mr. Brassington, I rise to a point of order. The hon. member said he understood that certain manufacturers were bringing pressure on m'e so that cheese could be manufactured. If that is so, I resent it and ask that it be withdrawn.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ber made a suggestion that the Minister resents as being unfair to him. I ask him to withdraw it, and endeavour to conduct this debate in such a way by avoiding personalities.

Mr. MAHER: It is fair public criticism.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I am asking that the hon. member withdraw the state­ment.

Mr. MAHER: I do not know, Mr. Bras­sington, whether you can justly ask for with­drawal. I am entitled to express my point of view. That is the way it was represented to me.

The CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. MAHER: In addition I feel it is fair cri tic ism. '

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. member to withdraw that term.

Mr. lUAHER: Mr. Brassington, I do not think you are quite fair'. I shall have to comply with your request, but, after all, surely I am entitled to say that the Minister has given ear to the pressure of the manu­facturers.

The CHAIRlliAN: Order! I ask that the hon. member withdraw that term.

Mr. lliAHER: Very well, I withdraw. At the same time, that is the feeling which is abroad, and that is the way it was repre­sented to me.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: And you have prejudice enough to believe it, eh W

llir. lliAHER: Very well,. I wit~draw. in this Chamber in the past m relatiOn to Bills brought in by the Minister in the interests of manufacturers who wanted smaller brands on hides. He did not then study the interests of the cattlemen who wanted to retain the usual bigger brands on their hides.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: They got a higher price for their hides.

JUr. MAHER: They did not. The Minister listened to the manufacturers and tam~ers and dealers in hides then, he would not hsten to the interests of the graziers who produced them.

These three m'en were asked by .the .dairy inspector at Chinchilla to send theu m1lk to the cheese factory at Chinchilla. When ~r. Willacy got that request he as~ed the .car~Ie; of milk who passed his way mt? Ch1~ch1lla to call for his milk. The earner d1~ ~ot call and the milk was left lying at the s1dmg thr~-quarters of a mile from the farm for a week. When the carrier called again he and Mr. Willacy had some words. The ~esult was that the carrier did not call agam at all. Having, regard to that fact Mr. Willacy-an old-time supplier and shareholder of .the Dalby factory-decided, as he had to hve, and the licensed carrier on the run between his property and the Chinchilla cheese fac· tory had declined to take his milk because of those words-which was quite understandable in the circumstances-to send his cream in to Dalby along with that of his neighbours, Mr. Bridgewater and Mr. Muller. The conse­quence was that the cream reached the fac­tory and the dairy inspector promptly dem~nded possession of it. The manag:er of the factory was not disposed to let ~1m have it, and the result was that the dauy inspector got in touch with the police and brought down a constable and demanded the cream'. Apparently he took that drastic action under instructions from Brisbane. It is reasonable to assume that the Minister had something to do with the instruction upon which he acted. He was then given posses­sion of the cream, and instead of having it returned to the suppliers in good order, or instructing the manager of the factory to arrange for its disposal elsewhere, he imme­diately put cochineal into the cream, which made it unfit for human consumption, and only suitable for pigs. Here, during a time

Supply. [3 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 857

of austerity living as demanded by the Prime Minister and all right-thinking people in Australia, and when the Minister had informed the Committee that he wants to speed up butter production by 50 per cent., and when there is a demand for butter for the fighting forces and for the civilian population, when the United Kingdom: is in urgent need of butter, and the armies of the Middle East have urgent need of butter we have this waste of cream, the content~ of eight cans.

The SecreltiiJ'y for Agriculture and Stock: Were they full cans~

Mr. MAIIER: I have no information on that point.

The Secre,tary for Agriculture and Stock: You seem to be well informed. I was won­dering whether you were misinformed.

Mr. MAHER: I did not inquire whether they were full cans. In view of the season there is every reason to believe they would be close to full-some would be full, and other perhaps would not be far off. So we ~an asse~s. t~e loss to the suppliers as being m the VICimty of £10 to £15 according to test and quality. These men' are forced to bear a loss of that kind. I did not hear from the Minister whether he intends to com­pensate them--

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: I do not intend to compensate them.

Mr. MAHER: That was a loss to the supplier and a loss to the State. Why did the Minister authorise an action of that kind~ He. has power under the Dairy Produce Acts to Impose a fine up to £100 or imprisonment for six months, or both on anybody who defies the regulations. '

Tlte Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Tell me where this is in the Dairy Produce Acts, and I will be pleased.

Mr. ~IAHER: Mr. Willacy was informed by the dairy inspector that if he did not comply that was the penalty. I did not look up the Act, but it seems reasonable to assume there is some punishment for defiance of the regulations.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Your statement in that regard is about as vague as every other statement you make.

J\Ir. MAHER: Does the Minister say there is no fine or imprisonment for defiance of these regulations~ The hon. gentleman knows full well that what I say is truP. He was not satisfied with that drastic power. He could have brought these men before the court for disobedience of the law; he could have had them fined, or if he felt it was serious enough he could have had them imprisoned.

The Attorney.Geneml: How could he?

Mr. }IAHER: He could have had them fined. There is the law. If they break tpe law they are liable to be punisheu in accord­ance with the offence. 'l'he hon. gentleman stands condemned for his action in this

regard. He says it is the law, that they have defied the law. There are some things that transcend the law. There have been men who resisted injustice. If you want obedience and acceptance of the law there must be an element of justice in the law, and in the administration of the law_; and I say the elements of justice ;yere lacking in the administration o:l' the law in this case. That sort of thing leads to revolution, to insurrection, to civil disobedience. There are many instances in history in which that happened. There is the Boston tea inci­dent, and the Eureka stockade. There have been illegal strikes in this State, and I did not hear the Minister getting up and demand·· ing the destruction of the property of the illegal strikers. On the. contrary, he fre­quently condoned these stnkes. The moment three dairy farmers, already hard-pressed by low prices and dry weather, send their cream to the Dalby factory because the carrier refuses to take it to the Chinchilla factory the Minister steps in and uses his power harshly and causes this cream to be de~troyed and lost to them. I say it is unJust, and I protest against it.

I cannot see any justice whatever in forcing men to send milk 13 miles to a cheese factory when there are men closer to the factory who could better afford to send it there. The regulations are wrong. Why did the Minister refuse to allow Mr. Rice to go and look into the matter on the spot and give a common­sense decision~ These things are irritating and provoking to the dairy farmers and, goodness knows, they have enough to irritate and provoke them under present-day con­ditions. They aTe a long-suffering class of people, and the Minister should know that. His action was tantamount to putting a red rag up to a bull and making for trouble and civil disobedience, and showed a lack of sympathy with men struggling on the land. On behalf of these three men I express the ho.pe that the Minister will do the right thing and refund to them the cost of the cream that he has wantonly destroyed: good foodstuffs that the nation wants· above all things today.

Tile SECRETARY l<'OR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) (2.52 p.m.): I cannot allow the remarks of the former Leader of the Opposition to go unchallenged. The hon membe~ made a pro­vocative speech without any knowledge what­evPr of the full facts of the case, or, if he has this knowledge, he has very cleverly taken out those things that support this ca.se, to present a case with the characteristic guile of the unscrupulous advocat('.

)Ir. JUAHER: I rise to a point of order. I object to the term whereby I have been likened to an '' unscTupulous advocate.' ' I am a. very honest and faiT advocate in this Parliament.

The SECRETARY l<'OR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I did not say that you were. I w:tid, ''like-''

llfr. ~fAHER: I should like the Minister to withdraw the remark, Jlilr. Bra.ssington.

858 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw that remark.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I certainly withdraw it, Mr. Brassington, but I thought one would be entitled to use a simile or a metaphorical form of expression in this Chamber. However, I take definite exception, as I took exception to it at the time, to the hon. member's remark that I have designed cheese-production in this State in order to promote the interests of certain manufacturers. May I tell the hon. member that I have continuously and inces­santly checked up on the work of the manu­facturers and on more than one occasion I have had certain manufacturers on the mat, because they have not been doing the fair thingW The answer to the question put up by the hon. member is: that cheese that is urgently required to be canned for our :fight­ing forces in the tropics is not being canned in the volume required for this purpose. Permit me to inform the hon. member through you, Mr. Brassington, that our cheese-canning programme is several hundred tons in arrears. Would that suggest there was any collusion, as hinted at by the hon. member for Aubigny? Would it not more amply suggest that while I have an essential responsibility and duty to carry out the things I am pledged to do the hon. member for West Moreton is willing to jettison the interests of those men overseas who are :fighting for him equally as they are :fighting for me 11 He is ·willing to say there is something sinister, something wrong some­thing underhand, something undergro~nd in these things. The suggestion is not worthy of the hon. member a11d I rose to rebut it in a very emphatic manner. I can assure the hon. member that so long as the military services tell me they require canned cheese that cheese will be canned, if it is within my power to have it canned. I can assure the hon. member that I have taken steps against at least one of the cheese-canners to see that he does the right thing. It is generally known that it was I who made the recommendation to the Commonwealth Govern­ment to forbid the canning of :filthy cheese. I made that recommendation and stood by it. I made that recommendation because certain of the canners, one in pa.rticular, was not playmg the game.

There must be a balance in these things. We start off on the footing that although butter is required, cheese is no less urgently required. I scaled this thing down to the lowest possible volume and I :find I have to get 13,500 tons of cheese out of this State to fulfil the minimum obligations that we have to discharge. 'Will the hon. member say that I should not regard that as a duty~ Would the hon member suggest that I should be false to them? vV ould he .suggest that I could g-et 13,500 tons, which I shall get this year, by making an appeal to the suppliers to produce this quantity voluntarily~

Does the hon. member forget that we are waging a war for our existence, not a war for territorial gain, not a war for the personal grandem of our race and our people, but a war for our very existence~ In the waging of this war for our existence, it

becomes absolutely imperative, absolutely essential to exercise powers that have never been exercised IYefore. I have said in this Chamber, and I repeat, right in the middle of our bloodiest conflict that our Empire has ever kno·wn, that I do not like conscrip­tion, that I am not happy about having to conscript supplies of milk for the manufac­ture of cheese, but so long as it is necessary to produce foodstuffs in a given volume, and so long as it is necessary to take whatever action one may take honourably in order to achieve that objective--

J'!Ir. Edwards: That was wrong.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND S'.I'OCK: The hon. member does not know the full story.

l'\Ir. Edwards: It was wrong.

The SECRETARY l'OR AGRICULTUR.E AKD STOCK: I have had a good deal of experience in these matters, and I know, as you know, Mr. Bmssington, that there is only one way in which you can achieve these results. 'l'here must be co-operation and there must be good will.

Let us take the story of these eight ill­fated cans of cream. The amount involved was not the total capacity of eight cans of cream. The story lying behind the whole thing is a great deal deeper than the mere physical addition of cochineal to the cream contained in a can. The story goes back to the very roots of the production of milk for cheese. Every company in Queensland, with the exception of the Darling Downs Co-opera­tive Dairy Association, came in willingly and voluntarily. Can you say that they were all wrong, Mr. Brassington, and that the Darling Downs Co-operative Dairy Association, with its silent sabotage of national requirements, was right~ The Darling Downs Co-operative Dairy Association, as I shall show, was abso­lutely and morally responsible for whatever damage may have been inflicted on 8 gallons of cream.

JUr. Decker: Why put it on the man?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Let me unfold my own story, and the hon. member will learn, if he does not know already, but I suspect that he probably does know.

The Darling Downs people said, ''Why should ~-e carry the whole of the obligation because our territory is the main cheese terri­tory in the State~''

Mr. Sparkes: They do carry a bigger obligation for cheese production.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE ANH STOCK: They do, but I said, "You will not be required to carry an obligation that it is out of proportion to your capacity to carry,'' and that is why I carried t_his campaign far beyond the confines of Darhng Downs.

lUr. Sparkes: How much cheese is pro­duced outside the Downs~

Tile SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: A very large volume, indeed,

Supply. [3 NoVEMBER.] Supply. 859

is being produced outside, as the hon. member knows. The Darling Downs Co-operative Dairy Association has not a monopoly of cheese production on the Darling Downs. Roughly speaking, there are 50 factories on the Darling Downs that are entirely beyond the control of the Darling Downs Co-opera­tive Dairy Association. It might interest the hon. member to know that the biggest individual cheese-manufacturer in Queensland to-day is at Warwick.

~Ir. Sparkes: That is the Darling Downs.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Warwick is beyond the ter­ritory of the Darling Downs.

Mr. Sparkes: No. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE

AND STOCK: Of course it is beyond the territory of the Darling Downs Co-operative Dairy Association.

lUr. Sparkes: I am talking of the Darling Downs area.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: And I am talking about the territory under the control of the Darling Downs Co-operative Dairy Association.

The position then developed that the Dar­ling Downs people said that they would silently sabotage this thing. If proof of this is required, it is to be found in the fact that at a recent meeting of the Darling Downs Co-operative Dairy Association, one Thomas, the manager of that association, put up the proposal that they should fight the department. The words he used to my own officers were, "It is coats off and a fight to the finish.'' I. put it to you, Mr. Brassing­ton, if a law is right or wrong-and in this instance the law is right-can any individual challenge it~ The law must be upheld. The basis of democracy, of government, of our civil progress, of our very life and civilisa­tion, is found in that axiom that the law must be upheld, and when the law is not upheld it is brought into contempt, ana when the law is brought into contempt you then have those civil disobediences that have been suggested so pointedly by the hon. member for West Moreton.

And so the Darling Downs Co-operative Association decided, as an association and as a directorate, that they were going to fight. They nre not fighting the department. The men who advised them may have had a griev­ance against the department. I have no doubt thnt it has a grievance against the department. The advice was not ac1vice against the department, but the advice was, ''Let us do som'e Fifth Column work in relation to the need for the production of cheese.'' Fifth Columnists may be found in unsuspected places. So they carried a resolution.

Mr. Sparkes: I do not think that is fair.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: It is true. Let me tell the story and hon. members can judge for them­selves. I do not make it a practice to over-

state my case or to condemn or attack any­one. Hon. members can rely upon it that what I am saying is true. They carried a resolution that they would instruct their manager to continue to lift for the Dalby factory the cream that was the subject matter of this argument. There is no doubt that many sinister little things developed. It may not be ungenerous, and it may not be untrue to say that the little things that developed in relation to the cartage of that milk go a little deeper than >Yas suggested by the hon. member for West Moreton.

Jir. Brand: Is ic true that they refused to carry the milk~

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: There may be a ~tory behind that. My department served an ordwa:y notice under the Dairy Produce Act _requ_u­ing these three people to deliver then m:lk for the manufacture of cheese to the Chm­chilla cheese factory, which had recently bee_n erected. There is this to remember, and It is one of the sad things, that for years, during the whole of my association with ~,he Chinchilla organisation and the Darlmg Downs organisation, that Darling Do":ns organisation, nn alleged c?-operat:ve organisation, has through the achon of Ill­advised directors alwavs endeavoured to stab the Chinchilla organi"sa tion in the back, always endeavoured to smash the Chinchilla organisation, and always endeavoured to steal supplies from the Chinchilla factory. In the old davs it subsidised carriers to go to the Chinchilla area to steal supplies from the Chinchilla factory.

JUr. Sparkes: What about the Mary­borough factory and its practice~

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: That was stopped, but the Darlin<Y Do1vns association is one that we have 1?ad to stop by force of _law, not. by moral suasion. It is the only dmry orgamsa­tion in Queensland that has repeatedly, con­tinuously, definitely anr~ deliberately refnsed to recognise the reguu~ments. of a ":ar period. Can anyone JUshfy a httle prac~ICe like the following~ I awarded the _Darlmg Downs organisation a zone round Its. cen­tralised factory. When I did that I behe;ed I was doing it to step-up cheese supphes. Proof of that is found in the fact that the Cheese Expansion Committee voted cert::'in large sums of money for the purpose of bmld­ing a cheese factory in Toowoomba. \Vhen thi~ cheese factory, costing seveTal thousand_s of pounds, was built and equipped any ordmary man with average' intelligence would have said, ''There is a set-up for the manufac­ture of cheese in vouT centralised factory in Toowoomba. '' A. priority order. h~d to be obtained in order to have the bmldmg con­structed and the equipment supplied. Then the milk zone 'vas given. 'What happened~ This was used simply as a pretext so that milk could be got. Mind you, there was no question of not wanting the law to be obeyed in that regard. Milk wns obtained from this zoned area, not for cheese-making, but for the purpose of sending it to the Brisbane

860 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

market to undercut Brisbane prices, to under­cut the prices being obtained by legitimate suppliers of milk to Brisbane.

lUx. Sparkes : Do you know that the farmers were not agreeable to that W

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I am glad that the hon. member has said that, because it shows that here is a director of an association who is completely out of touch and out of harmony with its suppliers. But no-one can tell me that that is a justifiable thing. It is on all­fours with the matter we are discussing.

To return to the case of these three people. We served the ordinary orders upon them. My officers called on them and they refused to obey the orders. I think all hon. members know that und·er that very drastic Act-the National Security Act-I hold a delegation from the Minister for Commerce, Mr. Scully, issued under a regulation of that Act. Although I have held that very drastic power for a couple of years, to the best of my knowledge I have used it on five occasions only. This action was taken after we had used our own State resources on this matter. I served a signed order under the National Security Regulations requiring these three p·eople to deliver their milk to the Chinchilla factory for the purpose of helping to fill the vats. What was their answer W Their answer was to transfer their delivery notes. A National Security order was served on them requiring them to service the Chinchilla cheese factory. They adopted the subterfuge-and it was a subterfuge-of transferring their delivery notes in two cases at least to their wives or daughters, or transferring their farms, or something like that, so that they had no milk to deliver. You can see how long this could have gone on. The hon. member for \'Vest Moreton talked about prosecution. These men could have transferred their delivery notes or farms day after day and week after week; for as long as there W!as population in Queensland they could have continued to do so.

Mr. II'Laller: That is fantastic.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTUR.E AND STOCK: It is not fantastic. They did transfer. That is the reason why the National Security order was served upon them.

Mr. JUaher: I do not blame them when you consider the circumstances.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: The hon. member is putting up his case and saying there was no alter­native. Had these people been permitted to get away with this-and make no mistake about it, it was a definite and deliberate try-on by the manager of the Darling Downs Dairy Association-to see how far he could go.

Mr. Maher: I do not think that is right.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I think it is right. He said that the coats were off, and "We will fight you to a finish.''

Mr. Maher: Whom did he say that to?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: To my officers, and there is strong corroborative evidence. The manager of the association telephoned the manager of the Dalby branch factory, who was instructed, if necessary, to use force.

Mr. lllaher: That was denied in Dalby.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Mr. Ladewig-I have abso­lute faith in him-tells me that is true. I believe Mr. Ladewig, who is a trusted officer of the department. I have had close associa­tion with him and I have found him to be a man of well-balanced judgment.

lUr. lUaJ1e:r: Do you chink the executive of the Darling Downs Dairy Association would counsel force to be used against the Govern­ment~

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Yes, I think this man is crazy enough to do anything to achieve his purpose.

The purpose obviously was that these men should continuously transfer their holdings, and there was to be no person on whom we could serve an order. Day after day they could transfer the delivery notes. In fact, they could keep this practice going for weeks and months, in the course of litigation. This was one of those instances, in which it became necessary, because the law was being defied, and open defiance was being encouraged to take drastic action. Let me assure the hon. member that I had no desire to take this action. For days and days I tried to find a way out. These people have confirmed my statement because the Darling Downs Dairy Associatidn through its manager was telling these people, ''We will take full responsibility for any action that is taken.''

Mr. Brand: Were you made aware of the fact that the carter would not carry the milk~

The SECRETARY l'OR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Yes, there is a story about that also. The story obviously was that the carter was instructed not to carry th·e milk by the Darling Downs Association.

Mr. lUaher: That is putting a wrong construction on it.

Tlte SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I am telling the story, as I know it and as I believe it to be. Let me continue, in spite of the special pleading. Two or three days ago the chairman of the Darling Downs Association came to me and said, ''Can we see you?'' I said, ''What do you fellows want to see me about~ Why do you want to see me~ You fellows have got· to obey the law, and if you will not you fall foul of the law, as you will do if you keep on in the way you are doing. I am prepared to meet you when you decide to obey the law." They sent me back a message that Hley were desirous of obeying the law. They regretted the things they had caused to be done.

As an indication that the Darling Downs Co-operative Association was definitely and

Supply. [3 NoVEMBER.] Supplz 861

deliberately mixed up in this thing, I might mention that a day or so after we had con­demned the cream, but not destroyed the cream, the Darling Downs Co-operative Asso­ciation, above the signature of the chairman of directors, sent me a copy of a letter it had sent to the Dalby manager instructing him not to take delivery of the cream sup­plies from these three men. The fact that only a few days after it instructed that these supplies be not taken delivery of at Dalby is obviously and clearly an indication that before that it told its manager to take delivery.

Mr. Sparkes: Why?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: To break the law, to defy the law, to bring the law into contempt, to hamper the war effort, to carry out their own desires, rather tha_n become one of a ~o-operat.ive coherent whole, doing a job it 1s essentml should be done for the wellbeing of the dairying industry, our troops, and everybody else concerned. Let m:e say to the hon. member that I have a meeting with the Darling Downs Co-operative Asso­ciation at 5.30 this afternoon, and I believe ~t will tel~ me it has approached this thing m an entirely wrong way. I have definite evidence of its culpability in regard to this thing; and in view of all the circumstances r have outlined the hon. member must admit that it was just simply a try-on to see how far it could go, what action we should take, how good the law was, and how powerful the National Security regulation was. I reiterate that there could be no question, when you had to choose between the observance of the law-a big, broad, essential, fundamental question upon which we all stand-and the destruction of 170 lb. or 180 lb. of cream, the 180 lb. of cream obviously had to go. I had no alternative, in view of that set-up but to destroy it. '

Mr. Maher: I think you acted very wrongly and wasted good food.

The SECRETARY l'OR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I am noc concerned with what the hon. member thinks but I am vitally concerned about two 'fundamental points that have tremendous importance and significance to me, if they have not to the hon. member. Those two points are : (a) that th~ war effort is to be serviced, and I am not gomg to run away from my duty in that regard; and (b) the law has to be vindi­cated, and I am not going to be derelict in that regard.

Mr. Spar.kes: The department made some very silly mistakes.

The SECRETARY l'OR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I do not agree at all. The hon. member talks about silly mistakes, but he forgets the difficulties of zoning. Zoning would be an impossible thing if we struck many instances like this, in which the hon. member apparently applauds the action taken by the association.

Mr. Sparkes: It is not in my electorate.

'J'he SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: He seems to be very much interested. I think it is in the electorate of the hon. member for Dalby. The hon. mem­ber for West Moreton must admit, in view of all the facts, that he was completely ill­informed.

JUr. Ma.her: Not at all; I am right on the spot.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: The hon. member may have honestly assumed that the case was as it was supplied to him, but I have filled in the gaps. His story runs parallel to mine, but I filled in the gaps between his story and mine, and so we get a complete picture of the whole thing. And those gaps are signifi­cant things. Let me examine some of them. The hon. member did not mention that we had sent notices to these people to do this thing according to the legislation, and we served National Security orderls-Common­wealth orders-on these people to do this thing. Neither of those points was made by the hon. member. Perhaps the hon. member was not aware of it, perhaps he was not aware of the existence of these funda­mental facts. Obviously, once the hon. member is aware of these fundamental points, he must agree with me that early, vigorous, and determined action had to be taken to uphold the law.

Mr. Edwards: Would it have been wrong to commandeer the cream~

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Will the hon. member show me where my authority lies~

Mr. Edwards: Under the National Security regulations.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: The National Security order does not give me power to commandeer; the National Security order gives me power to divert dairy produce or the products of a dairy farm to a point.

Mr. Brand: You could have made another order.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: But I do not make National Security Orders. The Commonwealth Govern­ment makes these and I am only used for the purpose of carrying out that order, a war­time order, a law that has the force of law emanating from the Commonwealth Govern­ment. I should be loth to believe that the hon. member for West Moreton would suggest here or anywhere else that that law should be flouted and war-time legislation disregarded.

Mr. Edwards: It gives you power to direct. You could have directed that it be sent to the Red Cross.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: There is a fundamental question in regard to that. Why should I give another man's produce to the Red Cross~

Mr. ]}laher: You destroyed it.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I did not destroy it.

862 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. Maher: It did not even reach the pigs; you let it go to waste.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: It was pur in the cold store at the factory and returned, so far as I know, to the producers.

Mr. Maher: You check up.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: That is my information, that it was returned to the producers. In order that it would not go bad it was held for a week, I think, in the cold stores at the Dalby factory.

Mr. Brand: There is the point about zoning-a man 13 miles away, whereas there are others closer in.

The SECRETARY :FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: There is not much signifi­cance in that. These people are on a good road, and there is a conveyance from that point to the factory. The hon member will appreciate the fact that he, for instance, might be producing 2 miles from a cheese factory, but owing to road and transport conditions-, might not be able to get to it in wet weather. He will appreciate that it is not only the distance from a cheese factory that determines its accessibility. It is deter­mined by reliability of transport under all conditions, good roads and things of that kind. In any zoning system it is obviously necessary to study the roads. Hon. members will agree with me that vats must be filled. We have to get a minimum of 13,500 tons of cheese.

Mr. Maher: What is your minimum of butter-the No. 1 essentiaH

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: The hon. member is not translating that entirely correctly.

Mr. Mahe,r: You have got to get it.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I should not expecc the hon. member to translate it correctly because, obviously, he cannot be fully informed in these matters. As far as I think I am at liberty to tell the hon. member-there are certain limitations and certain confidences-the story as I know it, is this: E•ngland requires 40,000 tons of cheese from Australia. She has asked us for that. A certain agreement with a cer­tain price was entered into then, because the margarine resources of England were cut out, and I think I am correct in saying that no margarine is going to England at the present time, and England must have vegetable or animal fats-wars are won or lost on the availability of animal and vegetable fats­England asks us to increase our butter supply, but states that she still wants cheese.

}fr. Ed-wards: But not the same quantity.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE ANn STOCK: Obviously, England could not get the same quantity, and another figure was fixed. I do not know I am at liberty to disclose the figures. However, that was a reduction on the amount required ol"iginally. It is fairly generally known that to-day England is in a real danger so far as fats

are concerned. There is no margarine, and the English people are fed with margari_ne. Their butter ration is 2 oz. a week, and I thmk that if they get 1 oz. of butter they can get 2 oz. of cheese. They can take their ration out in cheese or butter as the case may be and consequently England recently asked that we step-up our butter production. But do not believe that that absolves us from our obligation as to cheese. England still wants cheese.

Mr. Sparkes: But not so much.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Certainly not so much, but cognisance must be taken of the fact that the demand in Australia and the demand for the near East are going up all the time. When this original figure of 40,000 tons was fixed there was no American army in Australia, and we had not the Pacific commitments of the extent we have to-day. It was fixed on the set-up of a couple of years ago.

)Ir. Edwards: But they broke it down from 40,000 to 10,000 tons, and that is a tremendous difference.

Tile SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I do not know whether ic is 10,000 tons, and neither does the hon. member.

JUr. Edwards: Yes, I do.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: The point is that as the English potential is going down our own requirements are going up materially. Hon. members know that the canned-cheese pro­gramme is absorbing a tremendous volume of our cheese. They know that canned cheese can go into places whm:e butter cannot. go. Hon. members will realise that cheese 1s .a concentrated food, and the whole story 1s that although we were required to produce 20 000 tons under the Imperial contract, and in' spite of the alterations in t~e Imperial contract, we have to produce, m order to fulfil our obligations, not less than 13,500 tons.

The scaling down from 20,000 to 13,500 tons does allow of some relaxation, and more than one hon. member knows that when we had to get that 20,000 tons we had to be a little more arbitrary than we are to-day, when we have to get only 13,500 or 14,000 tons. I prefer to put the figure at about 14,000 tons, to be on the safe side. When we had to get the 20,000 tons, and .wherl: we. had to he arbitrary, we probably drd hrmg m so~ne people to whom the supply was a hardshrp, but since it has been sealed down from 20 000 tons to 13,500 or 14,000 tons-I prefer th~ 14 000 tons-then it is obvious that those people' who are suffeTing real haTdship can he dropped out. They are being dropped out and I am endeavouring to get my cheese with a minimum amount of hardship. The case of all suppliers is taken into considera­tion.

The hon. member has raised only one more question with which I desire to deal. He asked why Mr. Rice, the Director of Dairy­ing, did not go up. Mr. Rice has been con­nected with this work for many years.

Supply. [3 NoVEMBER.] Supply. 863

Mr. ~Iaher: But he does not know each little district on the Downs, with its road­ways and network of roads.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: He does. Mr. Rice knows the Downs as well as the hon. member knows this building. I have three or four cheese officers up there, competent, reliable men who were specially selected for the work they are doing, and if they cannot do their work the only thing to do is to get rid of them. Mr. Rice is a very busy man. He has a tremendous obligation with a depleted staff. The dairying staff, like every other branch of the department, is depleted.

~Ir • .!Ualler: The tone of the reply was disagreeable in answer to a courteous invi­tation. ;t~:;;[l

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I did not desire that Mr. Rice should go up. Mr. Rice has many more important things than this to do.

Mr. I\Iaher: You get these troubl()s because of lack of attention.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND S'l'OCK: I have men there in whom I have complete faith, and because I have complete faith in those men I am not going to cause my Director of Dairying, in these parlous times when I require him to be close to me, because we have to make decisions of a far-reaching character in regard to foodstuffs, contracts, and that sort of thing, to go up there. I require to have him by me almost incessantly. The hon. meml:)er suggests that it was an impudent reply. I suggest that it was an impudent demand.

Mr. I\Ialler: I do not say it was impu­dent. I say that the tone was not agroo,able--­' 'Action has been taken to fill the vats at Chinchilla'' in answer to an invitation to go up.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: Mr. Rice is one of my most courteous officers. Mr. Rice is not a man who errs on the side of discourtesy at any time, and I repeat that in these times, in which you cannot have two men doing one man's job, I certainly am not going to have the senior executive officers of my department chasing round to check up on the work of other officers, unless I personally have reason to believe that the work of those officers requires to be checked up, and in this instance I do not think it did.

That, Mr. Brassington, is the story as I know it. Those are the factg, and I am inclined to say that on the facts of the case the hon. member has built a pathetic aunt sally that has no foundation whatever, and due regard to all the facts surrounding this case will show that there was no justification for any action other than the action that was taken. And before I sit down I want to assure the hon. member that I have no inten­tion of awarding any compensation to the parties concerned.

Mr. IIL\HER (West Moreton) (3.33 p.m.): I am disappointed at the reply that

the Minister has given to the material points I raised. I am not concerned with any differences between tlre Darling Downs Co­operative Association and the Minister; they do not come into the matter. The two specific points that count are (1) the wanton destruc­tion of good food on the Minist·er 's instruc­tions, and (2) the faults in the system of zoning whereby men 13 miles from the Chinchilla cheese factory were forced to send their milk to Chinchilla while other suppliers clos·e in were allowed to separate their cream and send it to a butter factory. They are obvious faults in admin~stration, but the Minister skipped over those. Then the Minister said he had no intention whatever of compensating the suppliers who becaus'O of his unjust decision had their cream des­troyed, which was something of value to the State under present conditions. That is the Minister's attitude.

A large and representative meeting of dairymen was held in a hall at Jandowae at which the follov.ring motion moved by Mr. Hoare and seconded by Mr. Braunholtz was carried unanimously:-

''That a telegram be sent to the Minister for Commerce (Mr. Scully) stating that in the opinion of this representative gathering of dairvmen of the J andowae, W arra, and Brigalo:;v districts the destruction, by order of the Minister for Agriculture and Stock, of eight cans of cream, representing 800 gallons. of milk or 400 lb. of butter, at the Dalby factory on 23 Octoher,. represents a wanton waste of valuable foodstuffs.''

When a big gathering of dairymen assembles at J andowae to make a protest of that kind can it be altogether wrong~ From what the Minister has said, it would appear that there was some friction between his department and the Darling Downs Co-operative factory, but that does not cover the specific points I have raised. I am not concerned about the dis­cussion between the Minister and the Darling Downs Co-operative factory. I know nothing of it. What I am concerned with is the injustice meted out to three struggling dairy­men whose cream was destroyed and for which they are to get no compensation. I am con­cerned too with the unsound administration arising out' of the zoning conditions whereby men situated some distance away from the Chinchilla factory are directed to send their milk to that factory, while others close to the cheese factory are not obliged to do so. On those points the Minister stands condemned.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE ANJ) STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) (3.36 p.m.): Had the hon. member for West Moreton not left the Chamber while I was debating this question~-

Mr. I\Ialler: I had to leave to answer a trunk -line call.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I cannot help that. I do not know why the hon. member left the Chamber but he was certainly out of it. Now, when he' returns, he suggests that I did not reply to the specific things mentioned by him. Now that lre is in the Chamber again, may

864 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

I repeat my reply~ He suggested that the cream was destroyed by the order of the Secretary :for Agriculture and Stock. That is not true. I did not order that this cream be destroyed.

Mr. Maher: You ordered that the cochi­neal be put into it.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: No, I did not.

Mr. Maher: Then, who did?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I require my officers to see that the law is carried out. There is a State law in relation to this matter, and, more important still, there is a Commonwealth law in relation to it, too.

Mr. Maher: There is no law to say that :food must be destroyed.

The SECRETAR.Y FOR. AGR.ICULTURE AND STOCK: The law had to be carried out. The hon. member can glibly say that the whole thing had to be brought into contempt, that the law was to be disregarded, and that the people concerne<i were to be allowed to have their temporary triumph. That is really the hon. member's argument.

Mr. Maher: I did not say that at all.

The SECRETARY FOR. AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: The hon. member talked about the :fact that some people were close to a :factory and some were away :from it, under the zoning system. I:f the hon. member will read my speech in '' Hansard'' he will find my complete answer to that contention.

Mr. TURNER. (Kelvin Grove) (3.39 p.m.): I wholeheartedly agree with the views expressed by the hon. member :for Isis concerning wool appraisement, and I sin· cerely hope that we shall never revert to the system of selling wool by auction. I took up a similar stand a week or so ago in connection with the sale of fish. I have had a good deal of experience of the sale of wool by auction, and I can confidently say that the appraisement system is the fairest. No bigger ramp was put over the community than the sale of wool by ttuction. I say that because I know that "Vhen the buyers representing the various conntries-France, Germany, Italy, Japan, and the other countries, go into the auction room and desire to buy a certain line of wool they arrange beforehand that one buyer buy the entire lot and then split it amongst all who require parts of it. That practice prevents the price from being forced up, as at an on1inary auction sale. These bnyers agree on the highest price they will bid for a lot, and split it up between them afterwards. That has been a bone of contention with the wool-brokers for many years. The wool· brokers have been able to get some redress, but not sufficient.

JUr. Edwards: Your own Government counsel that principle in the timber industry.

The CHAIR.MAN: Order!

Mr. TURNER.: They do nothing of the kind. This is just an arrangement between the wool-buyers. The wool-buyers control the wool sales.

Itlr. Edwards: You should examine the timber-sales method.

Mr. TUR.NER: I know a good deal about wool sales, but I know nothing about timber sales. I say quite plainly that the wool­buyers have got the wool industry in Aus­tralia, particularly in Queensland, in their own hands. They only attend wool sales in Brisbane when they decide to come here. The wool-brokers can put our wool up :for auction only when the wool-buyers intimate that they will come to Brisbane.

ltlr. Decker: They come from all parts of the world.

Mr. TURNER: Does not everyone else know that~

Mr. Decker: Apparently you do not.

Mr. TURNER: These wool-buyers are representatives of firms in other parts of the world, but in point of fact are residents of Melbourne and Sydney. They come to Queens· land only when it suits them. It is not very long ago that the wool-brokers decided that they would not feed these people like fighting co.cks. Previously they had supplied them' w_rth hot meals-:-hot breakfast, lunch, and dmner. Then r:f they did not get a par· ticular seat in the train they would not come. If they did not get a window seat there were ructions. They are the greatest lot of humbugs anyone could be associated with. The hon. member who interjected has walked out of the Chamber because he does not want to hear the truth about the position.

I sincerely hope that when the war is over the present wool-appraisement scheme will continue. Furthermore, I hope that the wool now stored in Queensland-it is held in many stores, but I am' not able to say how many, or how many have been built since the \Yar bee a use of the lack of transport­will be manufactured into woollen goods in Australia, particularly in Queensland. We shall then be able to use up much of the cotton we heard so much of in this debate. We shall then cease bothering about overseas markets for our wool. I have sufficient knowledge and information to know that in the best suit worn there is only :from 1 to 1:i lb. of scoured wool, the rest of the material being cotton.

I:f our wool can be processed in Australia it will make more work :for our people, and less shipping space will be required to trans· port it overseas. "Why has our wool not been scoured in Australia before being sent over­seas~ There have been severe losses in ship· ping, and when the war is over there will not be sufficient shipping space to ship our wool now held in the many stores overseas. I sincerely hope that, in order to conserve shipping space and develop this continent, those interested in the wool industry will take steps to establish our own woollen manu­facturing industry in this and the other States

Supply. [3 NovEMBER.] Supply. 865

of Australia, and send the manufactmed material to the other side of the world. That is preferable to sending the raw pro­duct to the other side of the world and its being returned here at a fabulous price. That, together with the many concerns that handle our wool, gives an idea of the racket that exists. It would be better if the producer paid more attention to the manu­facturing side of the industry than appeal­ing to the Goyernment for help either in a reduction of laud rents or other t1irec­tions in parlous times. The apprai~c1nent scheme will give the producer a higher priec and more satisfaction, not only to the man engaged in the industry, but to all com·emed.

Jir. HECJ{ER (Sandgate) (3.45 p.m.): I congratulate the Minister on the way in which he administers the department. I have much sympathy with him, particularly during these trying times when we are trying to increase production without having the full powers to give scope to our organising ability. I know many of our difficulties arc caused through the war and the effect of zoning. When the change came in the daiTy­ing indusb·y from cream to cheese it 1vas obvious that there would have to be ~ome compulsion, because it was obYious there would be many objectors to the seheme. Although the Minister has had a great deal of trouble over this matter, I think in the case of the cream condemned at DalbY the deparhnent 1ms wrong. I know that the pro­I'Ocation was such that one would be tempted to take drastic action-particularly if the statement of the Minister about the director of the Darling Downs Dairy Association is true.

Jir. Power: But do you disbelieve it?

.Ur. DECKKR: 1'\o. If we accept that part of the statement as being absolute!~" true, then the provocation was extreme, but I cannot agree with the action taken, because it penalised the producer of the ere11m.

)fr. Power: He broke the law,

Jlir. HECKER: He may have broken the law, but if he was induced to do so by some other authority, and in view of the fact that he had trouble with the canier who wonld not take his daily milk to Chinchilla, we have to put ourselves in his position. It 1vas the only other action possible-to extract the cream and send it to the Dalby factory. If ::\fr. Thomas proYoked the farmers to do that, action should have been taken against ::\fr. Thomas.

Tile Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Action is being taken against Mr. Thomas under the National Security regulations.

)Ir. ll:ECKER: This is purely the case of eight cans of cream. If there is any other action against Mr. Thomas it is outside the point I am arguing at present. At times, when it is 11ecessary to increase production, we should temper our judgment. If the farmer had wished he could have put the Government in a predicament. Suppose he sent cream along a couple of days afterwards and the same action was taken by the authorities, and

1942-2 E

suppose that action was repeated. I think it would have aroused such a feeling in the dairying industry that the Government would have had to adopt other means of overcoming the difficulty. The problem was one for the Government as well as the farmers, and I do not see why we should have destroyed the cream. 'rhe Minister must recognise that it was a mistake to do so, because it proyoked every supplier in that arPa. It may have been possible to confiscate the cream and co1wert it into butter. That would have been something worth while.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Can you show me where I have any power to do it under any State legislation or Common­IYealth order?

Jir. DECKER: I understood the Minister to say he had extreme powers un,1er the Xational Security regulations, and hi~ action \Yas taken under those regulations. :;: think the Minister and his officers shou'd haYe tempered their action by not destroying the cream. It was made unfit for human con­sumption; therefore, to all intents :md pur­poses, it was destroyed.

'l'he Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Do you approve of anybody's telling the manager to resist my officer and U"" force­if necessary~

~rr. nECKER: No, I am with the hon. gentleman there. But suppose we agree with ihe :\finister on that point, that does not get 0wav from the ultimate result to the fanner who' supplied the cream. He is re::lJ~~ the pa11'n in the game.

The Secretary for Agriculture aml Stock: If there is any compensation, the duty to compensate is on the Darling Downs Co­operative Dairy Association, which assured these people it \\'ould accept full responsi­bility. I contend it is on the Dariing Downs Co-operative Dairy Association to ace cpt full responsibility.

lUr. DECKER: If that is so, somebody other than the farmer is really seeking the trouble. and, therefore, if the Darling Downs Co-operative Dairy Association does not recoup the farmer for the loss of the cream, it would be a wise gesture on the part of the Government to recoup the farmers for the loss of their pTOduce.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Pay them for breaking the law~ Let us get this point clear: there is a fundamental issnc here-compensate men for breaking the law~

::\'Ir. DECl{ER: Yes, under the conditions. You take one case only, but assume we have this second case of a farmer who cannot convey his milk to the cheese factory at Chinchilla, a farmer who has not the means for doing that, what would you expect him to do? That is a fair question. What \vould the hon. gentleman expect that farmer to do with his milk f Feed it to the pigs~

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Do you not think the story goes deeper than that~ I can assure the hon. member that there was something much deeper than just

866 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

the mere statement that the carrier did not take his milk.

lUr. DECKER: I will admit that probably there is some very sound reason for it all. 'There must be something at the bottom of it all, but that meraly brings more prominently to our notice the fact that there are always two sides to these things. There could be the instancE in which the farmer was not able, OYen if Le so dasired, to take his milk to the Chinchilla factory. 'rhere may be influ­ences of which we know nothing that would stop hhn from taking his produce to this factory. The points are only half covered. There a11 two sides to this squabble. I have no desire to become too deeply implicated in the martel'. hut viewing the matter as an outsider should say the responsibility rested on one man, on Mr. Thomas, if the statenLnts made by the :Yiinistar are b·ue, or on the other hm\d on the carrier for not carrying out his contract for the delivery of that milk to the factory. For the life of me I cnmot see why the·· fanner should be the butt of both sides.

Tl!e Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: He \Yas ·,-iJling to thrmY in his lot with Mr. Thomas and defy the department.

)fr. IfECKER: I will not admit that at niL TJH re is no CYidence that he has thrown in his with Mr Thomas.

'l'lw Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: \\'hy did he transfer the clelh·erv of his milk when ),ad a National Secllrity" Order seryecl Dn him

lUr. DECKER: A man will do anything in Dn extr,_mitv. If we \Yere in this man's place and coufd only giYe our milk to the pigs because we could not get it to the factory, what should >Ye do? We should take strong :lctio:J to get rid of the 1t1iJk nnd possibly do :· s he has done, thinking it to be the sensible thing. Probably he has bePn nch-isecl tha: by transferring his supply to anothe'" ffctory he will escape the repercus­sions of the law. Of course, I do not lmo\1'. but the point is that the >Yhole thing lem,es a bad :fi :J:,-,Jur in the minds of the dairvmen and th public. Dairying has \'rlrious problems.

At 3.55 p.m.,

:Jir. DUNSTAN (Gympie) relieved the Chairman in the chair.

:ilr. IIECKER: The zoning problem is a big one. I am not criticising the Minister in this ,,cnnection, because I think he has a .ioL thvt none of us em·y. The industry must bP looked at from a number of angles. There are the problems of dairymen who supply milk for cheese production, some of their own volition and some against their will. Then there are those who supply cream to butter- factories. Other dairymen produce milk for distribution as milk to the public, either os warm or cold milk. All these sections of dairymen haYe their own problems and it is a difficult matter indeed to satisfy all. Dairymen within practicable radius of n large city and supplying milk for consump­tion tbcTein are confronted with a very big

prohlem, and in any argument as to the supplying of milk for production of butter or cheese these dairymen get only >Yhat may be termed the left-over. For instance, take the tn:etropolitan area of Brisbane. How can there be a r·egular supply of milk to the public without bringing in milk from districts in which butter factories may he located J A quantity of milk to augment the city supplies comes regularly from Dayboro '.

As the Minister has pointed out, we have eYen had milk coming from Toowoomba in order to fill the shortage in our city supply. Much of that is unnecessary, especially in times of war. In fact, it is a pity that milk has to be transported at all in these days, and it >Yould not have to be transported if the dairnuen who were supplying milk for distri­butio_n amongst the people got a better deal.

The dairymen ronnel the city have compara­th·elY small areas. 'rhey are trying to keep theit: herds as large as possible in order to produce as much milk as they c_an for _the city, but they have to put up With varymg conditions. They have good seasons, drought seasons, and fair seasons. In bad times they haw to feed extensively to keep up produc­tion. but we are not getting the supply bec~use the dairyman is not getting a price that is profitable to him. He can produce by feeding even if the season is adyerse, l~ut the main factor is price. ·when the pnce received for his milk is lower than the cost of feeding and pToducing that milk it is onl;· reasonable that they should go out of the industry, and, as these producers go out, so we have to make greater calls on the counh·;' districts for supplies. I know the Minister has giyen attention to the matteT. I know, too that the Commissioner of Prices has been bro'ua-ht into it, and that he has promised some" relief, but in my opinion the increase should fluctuate. It should go up as times are bad and costs increase. Even if it meant an extra 2}d. or 3d. a quart in the price the dairy­man should not be asked to produce at a loss. Then there are times of plenty when the dairnnan has not to feed to the same extent, nnd "in those times the price could come down. The price should rise and fall like a baro­meter, according to the season and the con­ditions. In order to make that system success­ful it is necessary to be in constant touch IYith the producers, hut most of them round, the citv keep books and can giYe accurate statements as to the cost of prorluction and distribution. All factors are knO>Yn, and T think some consideration should be giwn to the scheme.

As a matter of fact, I feel that price-fixing for the whole State, especially that done throno-h the Commonwealth Government, has had a" detrimental effect upon prodnction. In m'" opinion, production is an integral part of the war effort, and that being so, it is a great pity that the wonderful organisation we ha•·e here with our own department under the direction of the capable Minister, is not made more use of by the Commonwealth when sReking necessary information for price-fixing purposes. If they did that the~· would have a true appreciation of the problems con­fronting our produceTs. If we had a close

Supply. (3 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 867

liaison between the Commonwealth and the State I feel that with our department developed to the extent it is by officers and a Minister who are conversant with the problems, we could help the Commonwealth to a much greater extent to lift production, but when we put restrictions on men at the direc­tion of the Commonwealth Government, when they take away his plant, when they fix his price at a low level and rob him of his man­power, I think the State has an insurmount­able difficulty confronting it so far as any uplift in production is concerned.

)Ir. 1IULLER (Fassifern) ( 4.1 p.m.) : As the one responsible for the dog fight that has taken place this afternoon between the Minister and the hon. member for vV est ::Vforeton, I should like to say something in connection with this diversion of milk pro­duced for cheese to the Chinchilla hutter fadory. On Wednesday last I asked the ::VJinister the following question:-

''In reference to the destruction of eight cans of cream at the Dalby butter factory was it not possible and desirable to enforc~ compliance with the law regarding diwrsion of supplies without resorting to such uneconomic waste~''

The 1\finist~r gave a lengthy reply, the first p;ut of whrch reads-

' 'The eight cans of cream referred to were not destroyed but condemned. This action was only taken after repeated orders issued on certain suppliers had been treated with defiance and contempt.''

It goes on-

'' A harmless colouring matter was added to the cream, which was then returned to the owners.''

I asked that question, not because I wanted to embarrass the Minister or anybody else, but because I felt that the reported state­ments would have a bad psychological effect in om· country districts. 'ro me it savoured pnrely of communistic ideas to seize a person's neam and destroy it.

I do not know any of the three suppliers concerned, and I should not know them to-mmTow if I met them. However I have received a letter from Mr. Willacy; and it appears to me that he is a fair-minded man. Perhaps the Minister was within his rights in diverting the supplies of milk to cheese factories in certain areas for the purpose of increasing the output of cheese. J\lr. Willacy says that on 8 Se11tember he was asked to divert his supplies to Chinchilla as from 14 September, and he goes on to say that for the week following no carrier had called for his cream. He goes on to say, further, that he has supplied the Dalby factory with cream for 20 years, and that he failed to see how he was committing an offence against the law. Whether it was an offence against the law or not I cannot say, but what I was chiefly con­cerned about in directing the question to the Minister some days ago was why the Minister should have destroyed the cream. Mr. Willacy in his statement to me says that the cream

had not been returned to him at the time of writing, which was 29 October, 1942. In his letter he says-

'' Referring to to-day's news re cream destroyed at Dalby factory on the 23rd, it was stated that a colouring matter had been put in it and returned to owners. It is six days and no cream has arrived. 'l'he cans came back on Monday. ''

That knocks the Minister's argument right out that the cream had been returned to these people.

)lr. lUaher: And it proves that my state­ment is con·ect.

~Ir. lUULLER: The Minister says that it was not destroyed, that some colouring matter was added, and that it was returned to the owners. Of course, that would pre­vent them from sending it to the Dalby factory or to any other factory, but it would be useful as pig feed. :iYlr. \Villacy said, in writing the letter, that a week after the cream was seized it had not been returned. In other words, the cream must have been cor,fiseated.

'l'he Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: According to my information the cream was put in the cool room at the Dalby factory and returned to the suppliers as speedily as possible with the outgoing service.

)Ir. :JH.:LLER: If the Minister made inquiries, 1 think he would be satisfied that .:Ylr. \Villacy was a fair~minded man. He has not engaged in any caustic criticism. He simply points out that these suppliers were situated 13 to 16 miles from the C'ninchilla factory, and he goes on to say that thm·e were other suppliers in the Chinchilla distriet within one to five miles from the Chinchilla cheese factory who are not supplying milk to the fac­tory. Naturally he ha£ the right to ,,sk why he should be couscripted to carry his milk ]::) miles hy road to a factory while living within one to five miles of the :ne not supplying milk to it. It is hard to see any equity in the matter at all.

I have already said that the }\![inister had some justification in diverting milk to e heese factories to increase the output of cheese but I do not think it was ever intended by the Commonwealth Government or the control committee, or the State Department of Agri­culture and Stock, for that matter, that sup­pliers should he asked to carry milk over long distances for cheese-making purposes. Only a few weeks ago, in the absence of the hon. member for Aubigny, l met a deputation from h·is electorate who were desirous of seemg the .\iinister or the Director of Dairying in con­nection with the diversion of milk to cheese factories. I want to say right away that .:Ylr. Rice, the Director of Dairying, received them very courteously, and listened atten­tively to all they had to say. The chief point made by one member of the deputation was that he was asked to carry milk 26 miles to the Chinchilla cheese factory. E\·ery practical man knows that it is uneconomic to do that. In addition, he told Mr. Rice that it had to be carted over bad roads, and that he hac1 little or no help whereby he could carry the

868 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

milk within the prescribed time. Therefore, it will be seen that the Minister's officers in the district either did not know their job or were throwing their weight about in a direction it waB never intenJed. I do not know whether the Minister knows all that has been done, but these men are willing to give evidence to the effect that they have been asked to carry milk as far as 26 miles Dver bad roads to a cheese factory. Again I say that any practical man would say that that was uneconomic, that it was never intendeu and never expected of the suppliers.

So far as I can see, what has actually happened in this locality is that there has been a bit of a dog fight going on between the Darling Dmvns Association and the Chinchilla Association concerning the supply O·f milk. There is no question about that. However, l want to say right here that I have not come here with a brief for one, Thomas, as the Minister put it, or for anybody else.

I n alise that the Darli11g Downs Dairy Association has not in other 'vays always played the game with other dairy as_socia­tions-I am going to concede that pomt to the Minister, because that is perfectly true. It seems to me, though, that here we are selecting three specific persons in an area and di vertin~,; their milk to the Chinchilla cheese factory. I am not responsible for what Pither the directors of the Darling Downs Asso(·iation or their general manager is doing, but lvhnt.~ver it is that should be no justifica­tion for selecting these three people and r1estl'oying their product. After all, they are the losers. It might be argued that the loss is not very much, amounting to only eight cans of cream. The point is that the action was wrong in principle, and people are wondering what is going to happen and what powers the Minister has. The Minister, in reply to the hon. nfember for 'Vest Moreton, said he had no other means of dea1ing with people who offended against the law. What power has the hon. gentle­man under the Act "·e passed last session dealing with the diversion of supplies from a buttc;· to a cheese factory~ Under that tlw ::\Iinister had constitutional methods of dealing with offenders.

'l'he Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: We exl·luded milk from that legislation. All they had to say was that this milk was intended for human consumption, anc1 we had no power to interfere,

Jir. )fULLER: It all seems very irregu­lar ]'C..rtienlarly to take up an attitude that th~ products of growers in a primary imlus­try should be destroyed in order that the provisions of an Act should be enforced. I do 11ot like the idea. So much coercion is being exercised in the primary industries that the people are becoming panicky. I do not want to rake over dead bones, but let us recall what happened a couple of years ago in connection with the transport of bananas from the South Coast to Er is bane. It is not so murh a question of what these banana­growers lost through being prevented from transporting their goods to market as the fact that under these regulations they could

be deprived of carrying their own goods to n1'arket over the King's highway. It was a very drastic step to take. We now find in the Chinchilla district the Minister instruct· ing his officer to seize eight cans of cream and destroy their contents. People in the coun­try, on reading that in the daily Press, won-der what will happen next. ·

The Minister's reference to the mistakes that have been made by the Darling Downs Assoeiation does not enter into this argu· mrnt; it is a separate matter altogether. I regret that the Minister and his officprs handled the matter in the wav they did. Their action will not tend to help the· Chin­chilla Dairy Association. As a matter of fact, it is likely to play right into the hands of the Darling Downs Association. There seems to be a good deal of sentiment in matters of this kind. It will be thought that these three men have been picked out and persecuted. Mr. \Yillacy said that only three people in that locality had been selected to supply the Chinchilla factory, and is at a loss to understa.nd why.

lUr. :!llaher: Three selected out of 30 suppliers.

)Ir. )IlJLLER: The dairy inspector in the district said that these people were to delinr their milk to the Chinchilla f_actory whether thev likc(1 it or not. Adm1ttedly :\Ir. Thomai's attitude has not helped. 1 belie,·e if Mr. Thomas made that thrt':lt th~t he "·onld defy the departmental officers 1t

"ould not help his case. Mr. Willacy tells 1ne that he has supplied cream to Dalb;" continuous!> for 20 years, and at a moment s notice was told he must not do so any longer. Nevertheless, his neighbours were a llo,ved to do so· therefore the action seems to have been ~·ery high-handed. Mr. Willary states that with an inch of rain it would be impossible to get milk from his dairy. There again it does not appear wise t.o ~ave called on him to supply niilk to Chmdnlla: vVe must remember that the manufacture of cheese becomes uneco110mic when m·iJk is <·anied over a long distance, but when milk is :wailable from a shorter distance it is a different matter.

A good deal of the present trouble is attributable to the establishment of chePse factories in districts unsuited for the pur· pose. Here again we must remembe~· that these people should never have been gwen a license to work that factory as they would be obliged to draw on another association.'s ar.ea for supplies. The Minister wns lookmg f~r trouble. I mmt to give the Minister cred1t for much good work in his department, but I believe he has made the most serious blunder in his career in his dealing "·ith this Chil_l­chilla business. Comment in the country lS

more critical than I have heard for a long tim·e. People are wondering how the hon. gentleman got these powers, and if he possesses them they wonder if they have any rights as free people.

It would be unfair of me if I did not mention, as the Minister has said, that the Darling Downs Dairy Association has been

Supply. [3 NovEMBER.] Supply. 869

receiVmg milk and selling it in the Brisbane area for domestic purposes. The result was that the dairy farmers within a reasonable distance of Brisbane were prevented from marketing their supply at a reasonable rate. The cheese price was lower than that for domestic milk, with the result that they could buy cheap milk and place it on the Brisbane market. No doubt every endeavour is made to stabilise the price for the producer of milk in the Brisbane city area-we give the Minister credit for that-but we do say it is very regrettable that he has taken this high-handed stand at Chinchilla, because it has undone some of that good work.

Dming the last six months we have had evidence almost every week of the interference bv this Government and the Commonwealth Government with primary industries. While we have to concede that during war-time control is necessary up to a point, neverthe­less the effect of any Government officer's :fixing of prices below the cost of production must mean a reduction of output. One of the things I am very concerned about to-day is the supply of food. As a national effort in the interests of the war, we should be doing everything possible to produce food. 'The Government profess to be concerned about inflation, but we already have inflation in a very acute form. Everyone knows the note issue in circulation has been increased by slightly more than 100 per cent. since the outbreak of the war, and the result is more money is in circulation than there are goods for sale and prices are inflated as a result. A few da:;-s ago tomatoes brought £4 4s. a case in :Melbourne, and that was because supplies of foodstuffs are short and money is plentiful-or the note issue is plentiful. It does not necessarily follow that the wealth vf the country has increased because of these things, that is, as a result of the increase in money and prices; on the contrary, it has had the reverse effect, and production is declining ewry day. The chief cause is price­fixing, which has the effect of creating panic in industry. A few days ago I noticed that Mr. Scully said nobody would be allowed to market pigs that had not reached 90 lb. in weight. That is in line with the attitude of the Minister in connection with the destruc­tion of cream. Fancy telling a pig farmer thn:t he is not to sell his pigs until they reach 90 lb.! It makes them wonder whether the Govemment are running the indush-y. In the eyes of the practical man that statement vf l\1 r. Scul1y 's is unreasonable and stupid. In many cases they might not have sufficient feed if they kept them till they reached over 90 lb. and in many others it is important to sell them before they reach 90 lb. Fancy interference of that kind and fancy upsetting people in that way!

The Secretary for Pui;Hc Lands: It had something to do with the export of pork~

~Ir. 1\IT;LLER: No. I take it Mr. Scully's idea in fTaming this regulation-a silly regulation-was to increase the quantity of bacon a1·ailable-if the pigs were slaughtered when they were young they would not yield as much bacon as if they were permitted to

develop further. In theory that may sound all right, but to a practical pig farmer the thing is quite stupid and it could not be enforced. There are periods when they have no feed to give the pigs. The effect of such a regulation would be that the man engaged in general farming would say, ''I don't want to have anything to do with pig-growing while these regulations exist.''

A few days ago a Meat Commission was appointed over the heads of the Australian Meat Board. It seems remarkable that this commission should comprise people selected from outside the members of the board, who understand the job. The members of this commission were not selected from amongst cattlemen or graziers. :Mr. Scully 's object is to reduce the prices of cattle to the gro\ver. I am not arguing whether the distributor is getting a fair price for retailing meat or not. A great many of our fatteners are buying stores on existing market prices with the best intentions.

They :ue obliged to do so. They are obliged to buy stores, but when these cattlt> are readv to be marketed there is the serious danger that they will receive for the fattened stock less than they paid for them as stores. If \Ye are to increas·e production of foodstuffs it is necessary to give greater liberty to our producers. The;r require some security in their business, but if the Government will int,erfere and send officers into districts taking over this and that and destroying it to make them comply with this and that regulation, or :fix prices for produce at much below cost of production there can be only one result: production will decrease. This argument could he nsecl in connection with all our products. Onions, potatoes, and other things have already been discussed here. If the Govern­ment \~·ant to do a good tnrn for the consumers aml also to encourage people to produce foodstuffs they should leave the producers alone, and production will then be such that the position will right itself automatically.

I ha1·e made this statement previously, but it is i\·orth repetition: the real wealth of a nation is not the notes in circulation, but the nlue of the goods produced and the only method whereby there will be an incentive t01vards increased production is to leave people alone, thus giving them some security. If the Government want to do anything to increase primary production, now is their opportunity. They will be doing a national service. At the present moment, parts of the country are having good rain, but the greater part of that water runs into the sea. I realise perfectly wen that at the pregent time there is not the man-power for irrigation schemes, but pnparatory work could be undertaken. It would be sound business for the Govern­ment to make a number of surveyors available to survev our fresh\mter streams for the purpose of irrigation schemes.

The Secretary for Public Lands: We have all that data now. Surveys haye been made.

Mr. IIIULLER: It may have been done in two or three districts, but I can mention

870 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

seYeral districts in which farmers have irriga­tion plants along creeks, but can get water for only three weeks, when the creeks are pumped dry. Would it not be wise to prepare to weir these creeks, thus providing water for those who are willing to grow foodstuffs for the nation~ These are one or two matters ~hat require urgent attention.

(Time expired).

Jir. DART (Wynnum) (4.23 p.m.): Although I represent a fairly large city area, I represent also a large farming community, who do dairying and poultry-raising.

I listened with great att·ention to the explanation given by the Minister about the destruction of certain cream sent to a factory at Dalby, but I cannot bring myself to decide that the Minister was right. As the debate proceeds the greater the information we obtain, and I think the hon. gentleman must haye come into the Chamber unprepared with sufficient information to giYe us all the facts to ·enable us to arrive at a judgment on the matter. The law may permit of r·ertain things, but I think the action he took was morally wrong. A man who was a good, honest worker came under conditions that perhaps others in this Chamber know nothing about. He was not able to get any payment for his services to the war effort. His product was not returned. Vlf e ha Ye been told this by the hon. member for Fassifern. The Minister on the other hand informed us that it had been returned. That shows that he has not full knowledge of what happens although he endeavoured to make an explanation to the Committee. As I say, the longer the c1ebate proceeds the more information we get.

Jir. Collins: How do you know he is not right~

Jir. DART: I saw the letter signed by the gentleman that >vas sent to the hon. member for Fassifern, so that I lmow the information given by that hon. member­that as late as six day ago he had not receiwd his cream-is correct. The cream cans came back, but contained no cream. The Minister stated that all the cream was returned.

Jir. Collins: He had his information from his officers.

Jir. DART: He got information from his officers, but the man who was actually an interested party did not rec·eive what the Minister said he had received.

It is very wicked to destroy anything. I remember the time when a person who emptied a tank of water was guilty of an offence, because to allow pure drinking water to go to waste in this country is a crime. Here we have a waste of cream at a time when nothing should be wasted. The cream was destroyed in that something was put into it that made it unsuitable for domestic use. It could then be given only to animals.

I am very sorry indeed that this has happened, because up to the present the Minister has always endeavoured to do what was right in the interests of the primaq producer. I have supported every Bill he has

introduced, because I have felt that they were desirable, and I trust that he will reconsider this matter calmly and decide to award com­pensation to the unfortunate dairymen in this. instance. I am sure the action that has been taken so far does not meet with the approval of the citizens of this State, and a fair compensation should be awarded to the owne1·s of this cream. For all we know, these farmers may be labouring under extreme diffi­culties. They may owe considerable amounts on their farms. They may be relying on their children to help with the milking. We do not know all the things that may have· happened.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: It is obvious that you do not know all the things that have happened.

JUr. DART: We know that the Minister did not know what actually happened because he was under the impression that the cream had been returned.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Do you suggest I should compensate the men for breaking the law~

JUr. DAR'r: The :\finister has broken the law many a time but the police have not arrested him.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Just answer my question. Do you hold that a man should be compensated after having broken the law?

J'Ir. nART: The Minister should do the sensible thing, and I think that in this case justice was denied. this man.

The Secretary for J.griculture and Stock: Did he, or did he not, break the la\d

lfr. DART: I am not even certain that this man was compensated to the extent of having his cream returned. The Minister broke the la"\\. by saying that the eream had been retlnned when we know that it "\Yas not sent bacl' to the farm.

I did not rise to speak on this subject, but when I saw the injustice that this primary producer was suffering I thought it m1 duty to point out that we are opposed to tlns type of action. I wish to deal now ·with the Minister's leaving this State. vVe shall all miss the excellent work he has been doing.

Mr. 'l'urner: Who said he is leaving?

lUr. DART: It has been reported that he is leaving, and I trust that his representa­tions down there will result in reasonable prices to primary producers. The present system of price-:fi::cing .is absurd. T~e Commonwealth's attitude 1s not at all desu­able and I hope that if ever the Minister goes to the Federal Parliament--

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: I have no intention of going to the Federal Parliament.

Mr. DART: The Minister now says thae he has no intention of going. I am pleased that he is remaining to continue his good work here, and I hope that this incident will be a warning to him not to interfere

Supply. [3 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 87l

1\·ith primary producers in the way he hae done.

I was pleased to hear the Minister's pro· posal that all residents of the city who had any spare ground should put it under vege­tables. By doing so they would be aiding the war effort tremendously. Although people may have grown vegetables in their own backyarcls for their own personal use, they have indirectly helped to augment the sup­plies that are required to maintain the fight­ing services in a healthy condition. 'The J\[inister therefore gave very sound advice 1vhen he urged all householders to prepare a garden plot in their backyards. However, I should like to go a step further in the matter and to stress the importance of having a good water supply. Nearly every home in the large cities has an adequate town water supply, but my point is that there is need for greater irrigation facilities in the State.

The TK'UPORARY CHAIRI'UAN: Order! The hon. member will not be in order in dis­cussing the subject of irrigation on this vote.

ii'Ir. UART: It is impossible to grow good vegetables either for domestic or marketing purposes without a plentiful supply of good water. However, if I am not in order in cliscussing the subject of irrigation I shall content myself with saying that if more Yegetables are to be produced, more 1vater 1vill have to be conserved.

At one time fruitgrowers were compelled to pack their fruit in new cases, but owing to 1var circumstances new cases were hard to get and the Minister, in his wisdom, deemed it necessary to pass special legislation per­mitting the use of second-hand cases under the control of a committee, with licensed dealers to handle them.

At 4.35 p.m.,

The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair.

)Ir. DART: The Minister was very wise because second-hand cases are serving a very useful pmpose to-day. Quite a number of fruit cases from 'Tasmania, Victoria, and other places, used principally for the packing of apples, were very suitable as second-hand cases. I trust that thP good work by the Minister will be continued. His efforts are appreciated by the fruitgrO\ring industry. However, there is one aspect of the matter that calls for special attention. It was the practice of the fishermen to buy a large number of second-hand apple cases in which to pack their fish for market, but since the sale of these cases has been controlled bv the committee fishermen are not allowed to ·have ~ny of them.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ber is not in order in discussing that ques­tion on this vote. He will have an oppor­tunity of discussing it on a more appropriate vote.

3Ir. DART: I am pointing out that it was the practice of the fishermen to use second-hand fruit cases to pack their fish. 'The control of second-hand fruit cases is ,,xercised by the Secretary for Agriculture

and Stock, and I have been asked by the fishermen to ask the Minister if he will make a certain n um her of these cases avail­abfe to them for fish-packing purposes. I hope the Minister will give favourable con­sideration to that request.

'The poultry industry is a very important one in Queensland. I believe that 70,000,000 dozen eggs are required this year, which will mean that the poultry farmers will have to give considerable attention to the feeding and care of their birds.

The Secretary i'or Agriculture and Stock: Is that the Queensland quota~

JU1·. l}ART: That is the quota for Aus­tralia. Hon. members can see how important it is that the utmost attention be given to the poultry industry in Quee~sland,_ because it will be expected to contnbute Its share towards the attainment of the quota. 'There­fore I ask the Minister to give favourable consideration to the matter of supplying the poultrymen with an adequate quantity of shell grit. 'There is a shortag~ at the moment. I raised the matter some time ago, but I think the :'11:inister was in the South.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: 'The hon. member knows that I was respon­sible for having a supply of shell grit made available.

Jir. HART: Yes. I thank the Minister for his efforts and I want to tell him that :ve shall be very grateful for f_urther s_upphes later on. I know that he realises the Import­ance of the poultry industry, and !hat he will see that proper care is taken of It.

It is necessary, too, for the depart~nent to concern it3e1f >vith the fcTtilism· reqmred for the manY crops that are grown in this part of queei1sland. The Secretary for ~abour and Emplovment gave us a lengthy disserta­tion on ~otron-growing, but he only told us how cotton was produced on ,-irgin soil _or scrub law1s, which we all know (1o not reqnue fertiliser. Yet the figures he pToduced show~d that the returns from cotton grown on tlns lan•l w~s not suflicient to gi\·c a Jiving to tlw gruwrrs. Tic advoeate(1 approaching· the Federal Government for an increased pnce. I would impr~ss on him how much more important it is tn make fertiliser available to help in growing cotton on lands othGr than scrub bnds. 'The Secretary for Labour and Emplovment said the retmns he gaYe were from <('otton roughly plante(l in scrub land an<l tiHe•l. 'The quantity now produced is not sufficient for om requirements. 'l'here­fore, if gro,vers -were assisted by 1naking fertiliser avnilable to them it 1vou1(1 be for the benefit of the nation.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: You do not use fertiliser for cotton-growing.

J;fr. ][)ART: As food in the shape of fertilider is so necessary for our plant life it seems strange that our scientists have not yet produced a suitable fertiliser for cotton­growing. I will leave that aspect of the sub­ject to the Minister. I trust he will do his best in the interests of our primary pro­ducBrs, who are the backbone of the country.

872 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The city men have to depend on them for their food and clothing. That being so, both city and country interests should work hand in hand. I am satisfied the labourer should get his full award rate for his labours, but I also want the primary producer, his wife, and family to get not less than the basic wage, together with a fair return on his capital outlay in the shape of machinery and plant. If we could all agree on that we should have a better and more contented nation. We ought to attempt to do onr best in the interests of all and not al1ow little brushes such as we have had on this vote prevent us.

Mr. SPARKES (Aubigny) (4.43 p.m.): I have no desire to take the part of the Darling Downs Co~operativl• DaiTy Associa­tion or its manager. The Dnrlin~: Downs area produces 83 per i'ent. nf the t<·i~ll crcan1 produeed in Queensland.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: 1 t takes in more than the territorv covered by the Darling Downs Co-operatf,-e Dairy Association.

JIIr. SPARKES: I am concerned only "· ith tl1e people IYho liYe in the Darling Downs mea. They are the iwr<1e'3t~working and best settlers in Queensland. The ~Iinister has told us that they hrJ\·e beer• powlised rur the action of the manag('T oi tLc Dar­Jing _l)ovnls Co-oper:1ti\'C Dairy .. .t\.sst-..<.·i::~tion, hut I think it would haYe been mme diplo­matic for him to have ]'unished the manager, llot the poor unfortunate eol·kY. Thnt is the point that is wonying me. · If what the Minister has told us-and we mast arcept lns statc1nent as corre, t-the lll~U12ger of the ;,ssoeiation is at fault.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Ami thc; directors.

Jir. SPARK}~S: That is only about half a dozen persons; I am concE'rned with the people. \Yl1:' dill the J\Tinister penalise the men who supplied the cream;

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Ha Ye you ever heaHl of accessories?

_1\Ir. SPA.RKES: The Minister must recog­mse that 111 the ehange from neam' to milk certain hardships mnst occur. He will prob­ably ag~ee that in some instances it is prob­a hly eas1er to take cream or milk 15 miles oYer a good road than seYcn miles on a bad road.

These troubles have occurred on the Darling Downs. In many instances it was probably pin-pricking cases like this that brought about the trouble. The hon. gentleman has had deput::tions and I have made personal repre­sentatwns about these self-same things. There is one instance in which people who live within a few miles of the Jandowae factory were told to send their products to Chinchilla. The Minister knows that is wrong, and I believe he has rectified it. If the Minister had handled this matter more tactfully and had approached the individual himself the result would have been different.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock : Do you not think the individual was approached'

:llr. SP ARKES: He was approached in a certain way. I still say he has been made the scapegoat, even on the hon. gentleman's own statement of the facts.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: You know the story better than most men in this Committee.

lUr. SP ARKES: I know the story.

Tile Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: You know Toowoomba has been out to assassinate Chinchilla for years.

~Ir. SP ARRES: I know the story quite well. 'rhe hon gentleman knows we have not heard the whole of this story.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Yes, yon have.

lUr. SPARKES: I am not going to con­done any action opposed to the law. I realise we should uphold the law. Is the law upheld in every other direction by every other work· ing person~ If it is proper to punish a farmer for breaking the law is it not right to punish workers for illegal strikes~

'J'he Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: I have a responsibility in one direction.

::Ur. SPARKES: I maintain that there is no difference between the two thing's. The illegal striker is ju,,t as much at fault as the man who does not comply ·with the Com­monwealth regulations, and he shonld be dealt with just as drastically. 'rhat is what I want to get at. 'rhe hon. gentleman by his silence shows that he agrees with me.

The Secretary for Agriculture rnul Stock; I have a responsibility in one direction, but no power in another. It is no good trying io attach a power to me I have not got.

'filr. SPARKr:S: The hon. gentleman is not prevented from speaking his opinion. He may have a responsibility in one direction, as a Minister,, but ns an Australian he has a responsibility in the other dir~ction. .As a member of this Government he 1s allowmg it to go in another direction.

The CHAIR.:~IAN: Order! I ask the hon. member to keep to the question before the Committee.

lUr. SP ARRES: I am, Mr. Brassington. We are discussing the imprisonment-

The CHAIRMAN: Order! We are not discussing strikes.

Mr. SP ARKES: I bow to your direction, but to my mind it is a strike in a sort of a way. The hon. gentleman referred to it in his speech as something of that sort.

The Secretary for Agriculture ami Stock: I said it was a deliberate evasion of the law.

Mr. SPARKES: Sabotage in evading of the regulation; in other words, breaking the law. What I am trying to point out is that there is no difference between the person who breaks the law in one direction and the

Swpply. (3 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 873

person who breaks the law in another direc­tion, one breach affects the supply of food­stuffs for the soldiers and the other the supply of ammunition or other war material for their use.

'fhe Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Do two wrongs make a right~

~Ir. SP ARKES: No, but if one who does w-rong is not punished and the other is punished, it does not help matters. If it is right to punish the unfortunate producer, surely it is right to punish the other fellow~

'l'he CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ber is at liberty to discuss the case raised by the hon. member for West Moreton, but he cannot discuss industrial strikes under this vote.

)Ir. SPARKES: I have no intention of discussing industrial strikes; I was trying to discuss the breaking of the law.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: You are on very thin ice.

3Ir. SP ARKES: I am on perfectly sound ground. I should like to see the same treat­ment meted out to those who break the law in other >vays. I ask the Minister through you, Mr. BTassington: is the person who is supply­ing milk foT cheese on a reasonably good wicket compared with the cream-producer?

The Secretary l'or Agriculture and Stock: Yes.

3Ir. SP ARKES: The hon. gentleman knows that 1 d. rise is not a fair an<l reason­able thing. I know the district very well, and I know that because of the condition of the roads transport is a very difficult matter. No matter h-ow he may endeavour to compel people to deliver their milk or cream to cer­tain factories, unless there is a road over which this milk or cream could be transported all the compulsion in the world would not shift the product after a rainfall of 4 inches or 5 inches.

The Secretary l'o:r Public Works inter­jected.

lUr. SP ARKES: The hon. gentleman has not built all the roads in the world yet. These producers are considerably handicapped as regards taking their milk to be manu­factured into cheese. Getting the milk away is an every-day job. Wh-y did they not go in fOT the change voluntarilyW Through you, Mr. Brassington, I ask the ~Vlinister: is it not easier in nine cases out of ten to produce cream than milk~ In that district it is, as the hon. gentleman well knows. Certainly, there are some localities in which there are good roads, but immediately one has to leave the good road one has to encounter 200 or 300 yards of black soil that can be a nightmare to a man with milk.

In a remark by way of interjection to-day the Minister stated that the farmers are not all behind the movement of the Darling Downs Co-operative Dairying Association. It is against their own interests, and they showed

tliat by their attitude at a shareholders' meet­ing, at which the hon. gentleman is fully awar0 they refused to pass the balanc~­sheet.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: And reduced the fees of the directors.

Mr. SJPARKES: That was by way of a caning for the directors.

'fhe Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Still the point is: if it is wrong and indefen­sible from any point of view and although it may be opposed to the wishes of the suppliers, it still goes on.

::llr. SPARKES: Nevertheless, the fact remains that this trouble arose,, because certain officers of the Minister's department are not properly conversant with the condi­tions. I recommend the hon. gentleman to mak_e a personal trip through these districts to see what some of the producers have to put up with. I ask him sincerely to do that before he takes anv further drastic action. I know and he kno~YS that a matter similar to that which he has just condemned is continuing. If these people are to be treated in a similar wav it will cause a heap of trouble. He should analvse the trouble and treat it diplomaticall~·-

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: There is a limit to all forms of diplomacy.

ll'Ir. SPARKES: Surely the Minister realises that the conditions warrant a thorough investigation?

The Secretary fo1• Agriculture and Stock: What is the answer when a fellow says-

Mr. SPARKES: The hon. gentleman will have a much longer period of time to speak than I have. Therefore, I think he should permit me to make my speech in my own wav and I will endeavour to allow him to ma.ke his. I have been away for a week and the hon. gentleman appears to have gone astray during that time.

'l'lle Secretary lor Agriculture and Stock: Tell me the diplomatic answer when a man says that it is coats off and war to the end.

The fH.HRlUAN: Order! I think if the hon. member will address the Chair and address the Minister through the Chair, the d:ebate might proceed more smoothly.

lUr. SPARKES: I was endeavouring to do that. The statement was not made by the supplier.

The Attorney-General: It was made by the representative of the supplier.

Mr. SPARKES: It was not made by t:he reprr~entative of the supplier.

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: It wa3 made by a man who usurped the rights of the suppliers, the rights of the directors, and the right to make laws.

Mr. SJP ARKES: The hon. gentleman is trying his best to put me off the track. I know that what I am saying is hurting him:, and he wants to divert me as much as possible,

874 SuppLy. [ASSEMBLY.] Comm. Constitutional Convention.

but the truth must come out, in all fairness to those people who are doing a good job. To hear the Minister speaking to-day one would think that the people on the Darling Downs who are providing this milk were nothing less than a lot of Fifth Columnists, and I resent that.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE ANn STOCK: I rise to a point of order. That is an entirely unwarranted assumption. I wish to repeat that the people on the Darling Downs are doing an excellent job, and I ask that the remark of the hon. mem­ber be withdrawn.

The CHAIRlUAN: Order! I think the hon. member for Aubigny should accept the Minister's statement that he diu not use that statement in Committee to-day, and that he did not imply that the people on the Downs were Fifth Columnists.

)ir. SP ARKES: I accept the ~inister's assurance, but when listening to hJS remar~s to-day I really did think that that _w:"s t;s opinion. I am glad to hear the ~1mster. s denial because these people are domg a b1g job. They have already done a big jo?,. and they are continuing to do it under d1flicult conditions, especially those \Yho have been forced into producing milk for cheese, and I do hope that it will be possible to give them a little more encouragement.

The other day the Secretary. ~o! . Public Works said, after I had been cnt1c1smg the wages paid to munition workers, and compar­ing them with the rates of pay for soldiers, that some encouragement must be given to these people. If that is so, then surely some encouragement should be given to those who are producing an essential need~ Surely they should be given a remunerative return f As far as I can see, the producer has been get­ting the hea' y cud of the stick all the way through, and getting it by means of a hit on the back of the head. Certainly he has had no encouragement. vVhy, even the present subsidy is nothing but a sop. It does not help the industry in any way. I do not knO\Y what the Minister thinks of it, but in my opinion its ramifications are such that it will bP almost unworkable.

l\Ir. Pie: It is working in Canada and America.

1\Ir. SPARKES: The hon. memper wants to be careful, for he is now gettmg a long wav from an industry that he knows. If he likes to come up and put in a week or two oR a dairy farm I venture the opinion that he will have a great deal more knowledge at the end of that week. He will have a lot more knowledge and a lot less flesh.

It is my candid opinion-and I believe that the Minister 11grees with me-that the onlv wav to help the industry is to give a straight-out rise to the producer and let the consumer pay for it. If that had been done there would have been less trouble and fric­tion.

rrogress reported.

COMMONWEALTH CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION.

RESUMPTION OF DEBATE.

Debate resumed from 30 October (see p. 840) on Mr. Cooper's motion-

'' That the paper (Invitation to C:onsti·­tutional Convention) be printed.''

l\Ir. RIORHAN (Bowen) (5.1 p.m.) : At the outset I wish to pay a tribute to the speeches that were made on this debate last week. Everyone who has spoken has attempted. to place the case as the State sees it in the· most competent manner possible.

The proposals that have been brought down by the Federal Attorney-General for the setting up of a convention with a view to holding a referendum during a time of crisis, a time of war, and a time when people's minds are unsettled, are wrong. I am strongly opposed to the proposed alterations, and I wish to say that I intend trying to put the matter from the point of view of the layman rather than that of an expert on con· stitutional matters. I \\"ish to examine them from the point of view of the man who expresses an opinion to another in the street.

I oppose the proposals, firstly because I believe that the Federal authorities now have ample power to do what they propose doing by way of the Bill that is being introduced by the Federal Attorney-General. Dr. Evatt and his Govemment may be actuated by the very highest motives, but this is not the time to seek important constitutional changes while the entire forces of democracy and con­stitutional government are ranged against a ruthless aggressor who would seek to alter· our constitutional practice by imposing his will upon us.

Let us analyse the position in a clear, logical, and common-sense way. What would be the position to-morrow if the Common­wealth Government decided to submit the question to the people in the form proposed~ It has been admitted quite candidly by Dr. Evatt that the forthcoming constitutional convention will be only a kind of advisory council and the Government will not be bound to accept any decision or adopt suggestions made there. Another important point is that the Commonwealth Government have told us in advance who our representatives at the conference shall be--the representatives of the States shall be the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition-but who knows that in any State there may not be someone more competent to advance the ideas of the State than the Premier for the Government and the Leader of the Opposition for the Opposition parties f The very fact of the Commonwealth Government's selecting our representatives in advance makes me suspicious right away. I am opposed to the holding of a referendum on such an important matter as the substitution of a new Constitution for the existing one-not an amendment of the Constitution-in a time of war. The whole thing savours of snide politics. I say quite candidly, regardless of whom it offends or pleases, that the taking of a referendum in

Commonwealth [3 NovEMBER.] Constitutional Convention. 875

.a time of grave emergency such as we have

.at the moment, when hundreds of thousands .of our men are engaged in the fighting services overseas and thousands of our own kith and kin are in prison camps in Germany, Italy, and other countries, is wrong and that it will not give a true reflection of the opinions {)f thP people of Australia. It is Pspecially wrong in view of the fact that our people aTe desperately engaged at the moment in fighting for the retention of democracy in Australia, as opposed to the ideas of those who would destroy constitutional government. (Hear, hear!) It has already been said by a high and responsible Federal Minister, that it is in time of war that the Government can pass contentious legislation through Parliament.

Mr. Maller: Who said that?

l.\Ir. RIORDAN: I am not in a position to say, but I know the statement has been made in this Chamber over and oveT again.

lUr. IIIa.her: By the ex-Premier, but he did not mention the name of the Minister.

)Ir. RIORDAN: The hon. member does not know, because he was away c;hasing Herefords in his electorate last week and the week before. He is only repeating what he has heard. He has hardly had time to read '' Hansard '' containing the debate on this subject on Friday last. The entire concep­tion of constitutional government and the whole of our democratic rights can be destroyed by the insertion in the appropriate Bills of the words, ''To achieve economic security and social justice.''

lU'r. Illaher: Have you abandoned those principles~

lUr. RIORDAN: I believe in economic security and social justice, but any attempt to deprive the people of their constitutional and democratic rights, of their right of an appeal to the High Court and of their rights as bestowed on this Parliament and the Parlia­ments of the democracies in accordance with Magna Charta, savours of the very worst phase of Fascism. I do not care whether the hon. member, who is seeking to gain political honours in the Federal sphere, agrees with me or not. I suggest that he should review the course that he previously adopted in this Chamber.

Mr. Brand: To whom are you referring?

IIIr. RIORDAN: I am referring to the former Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Brand: We are amused to think that it is the Labour Party that is seeking to do these things.

IIIr. RIORDAN: I am not concerned about whether it is the Labour Party or any other party. I am speaking as a private citizen and I am: sponsoring the rights of the people. In a matter like this it is the duty of every citizen, especially one who is in Parliament, to take a stand against the action of any pol'itical party that would seek to deprive the people of something they hold dear and precious.

Honourable Members: Hear, hear!

lUr. RIORDAN: Fourthly, I believe that the proposals contained in the Bill introduced by Dr. Evatt, if given effect to in their present form, would be the greatest piece of J?ascist legislation ever attempted to be foisted on the people of Australia. I say that after having given a great deal of thought to them. Anyone who attempts to take away the demo­cratic rights of the people, either wittingly or unwittingly, should be told that. In this respect the Federal Attorney-General is making a grave mistake.

Mr. Brand: Do you think there should be an appeal to the people on all proposed alterations to the Constitution~

lUr. RIORDAN: There should be an appeal to the people before any part of the Constitution is altered. The greatest safe­guard democracy has, and what it is fighting for, is the right of appeal to the High Court of Australia. I want to tell those who pre­viously applauded the action of the Federal Government in enacting uniform-tax legis­lation and said that it was in accord with Labour's plank of unification, that that plat­form does and always has provided for the right of appeal to the High Court of Aus­tralia, so that if Dr. Evatt or anyone else did something that was in conflict with the Constitution there was the right of appeal to the High Court-which these proposals destroy. Dr. Evatt 's legislation would not enable that approach to the High Court to be made. It would enable Parliament to alter the Constitution "to make laws for the pur­pose of carrying into effect the war aims and objects of Australia as one of the United Nations including the attainment of economic security and social justice in the post-war world, and for the purpose of post­war reconstruction generally.''

'l'he Hon. W. Forgan Smith: He has not defined what that means.

Mr. RIORDAN: That is so. It is merely a high-sounding phrase that could be intro­duced in regard to anything.

Let us take these proposals to their logical conclusion. Look at some of the countries that have suffered in consequence of these all-embracing powers having been granted to their Government. First of all take Ger­many. What happened there prior to the advent to power of Hitler~

Mr. Dart: Revolution.

lUr. RIORDAN: Of course, revolution. There was an attempt by democratic govern­ments to govern. The continuous push of such organisations as that controlled by Hitler caused the Government to declare that a state of emergency existed in order to obtain drastic powers, which ultimately placed Hitler in the unassailable position he enjoyed. Those powers were granted in response to the cry, "Down with the Red terror! " Hitler came to power in consequence of the state of national emergency that was declared by the President of the day. What happened in Austria~ There existed a set of provisional councils and great socialistic cities in that

876 Commonwealth [ASSEMBLY.] Constitutional Convention.

country. Those were destl'oyed in conse­quence of the same cry being uttered-'' Down with the Red Government'' and ''Peace and good government for Austria.'' What pre­ceded the fall of constitutional government in France' Specious words again that there must be good government for the peace and good order of France. That led to Petain 's coming into power, then Darlan, and then Laval. The present set of circumstances in France was brought about because a state of emergency was declared there. They did not have the same constitutional safeguards that we possess in Australia.

These powers in Australia are being sought by the ambitious. There is only one thing that is worth while in Australia. That is the democracy and freedom we enjoy. There is no country on earth that enjoys the same freedom no matter what advocates of the svstems of other countries may say. I have heard it said in this Parliament that Russia enjoys greater freedom, but there is one thing that we enjoy that Russia does n?t enjoy and that is political freedom. Russ1a may Jmve greater economic liberty, and she may be a great nation, but there is ~ne tl~ing her people do not enjoy that Austmlla en.Joys and that is political liberty. One the other hand we have not economic liberty.

I view these proposals very seriously. I think first of all that whatever might be said about their merits or demerits, there is plenty of power within the Constitutions of the Commonwealth and the States to do all the things Dr. Evatt seeks to do under hiR Bill. What is there to stop it~ First of all, you get some very high-flown phrases such as "Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom from want, and free­dom from fear.'' Does not the prespnt Con­stitution give the people at least the first two-freedom of speech and freedom of religion~ As to the third freedom, there may be some who have suffered through the economic disabilities of the present sys­tem, but we have a greater freedom from want in this country than in any other coun­try on earth. The last one is, freedom from fear. The thing this Bill has created in me is fear. What is the true motive of the Bill~ Why should the Federal Government want these proposals put into effect~ There are words and phrases, but if the Govern­ment want to do the things Dr. Evatt says they intend to do by this Bill the Constitu­tions of the States and the Commonwealth give them power to do these very things.

Dr. Evatt has not told us what is his limita­tion. In the letter and the copy of the Bill I received from Dr. Evatt he did not tell me of any of them. In all the things that he has asked for there are no limitations. All these proposals can be overcome by. the National Security Regulations and the Judg­ment recently given by the High Court in the Uniform Taxation Case. There is sufficient in those to show that these powers are not necessary for the post-war recon­struction. The people who should be con­sulted in these matters, the people who should be taken into the confidence of the

Government are the States, in order to learn their opinion about the matter; and in co­operation with the Commonwealth they could do the things Dr. Evatt wants to du. Does anyone suggest that could not be done by asking the Premiers of the various States to _meet f They did not do that; they merely brmg down a Bill.

Another thing that makes me suspic.ious about the Bill is that one of the most vital precedents of party politics is decision by caucus, irrespective of what party it may be, and this Bill has never been before the party caucus at Canberra. This Bill has been brought down by sanction of the Cabinet and presented as a Bill, and has never seen the light of day in caucus. I sav that quite definitely. I got that from six or seven members of that party. It ie something that makes me get up in this House in a very sorry state of mind at having to attack the members of my own political party; at the same time I think I should be lacking in my duty-it will not perhaps be the most palatable thing I could say to my electorate-if I did not sav here that everything on these lines sm'ells to the high heavens to me. You have only to take a few of the things that have be(m preceding­these new resolutions. Let us take the state­ment Senator Keane made at the time of the Uniform Taxation Case. Prior to the hear­ing, when discussing the proposals in the­Senate, Senator Keane made a statement along these lines-that if the judges of the High Court of Australia stepped in the way of the Government and the proposals they now had before Parliament the' would have to be either removed or disciplined. Hon. members all know that that statement went throughout the length and breadth of Aus­tralia .. The ve~·y court he challenged to dG that drd step m the way of the aims and objects of the Commonwealth Gonrnment. because it gave a judgment, in keeping with the law, that the Government were entitled nn~er the defence power, to do as they wer~ domg. That is the beauty of Queensland and other States' taking the matter to the High Court.

The statement was made tha.t these proposals might be a good thing during a time of war, but altogether unsound during a time of peace. Dr. Evatt, in an address to the Con­stitutional Club in Sydney recently, said that those who would stand in the way of the fulfilment of his proposals should be '' ruth­lessly swept out of our way." Fancy any­body inviting the highest representatives of the people in this State to a convention and before the meeting giving a preview of the Government's intention of ruthlessly sweep­ing out of their way anyone who stood in their way! The whole thing to me appears a sham.

JUr. Maher: Are you quite sure he said that~

Mr. RIORDAN: He was reported in the Press as having said it. It has not been denied, and, therefore, I can assume that he did say it.

Commonwealth [3 NovEMBER.] Constitutional Convention. 877

Hon. W. Forgan Smith: It has not been eontradicted.

Mr. RIOR.UAN: Are these the words of members of a party that provides for an appeal to the High Court in matters affecting the constitutional rights of the people or are they the words of people who seek power for themselves~ I will say this for them: they may ba doing this in the very best interests of the war, but they are leaving themselves open to a very gm ve suspicion.

Another matter that makes me suspicious of these proposals is that vital principles of the Labour Party are involved. Has Dr. Evatt askad for the abolition of the Senate~ That would be in keeping with the platform of his party. He has not done so, because many of his personal friends possibly are back­ing the measure that has been brought down for submission to a referendum. But hon. members must not forget that though they do not ask for po1ver to abolish State Parlia­ments or the Senate the inclusion of the >vords ''social justice and economic security'' will empower them to abolish the Senate or Stat·e Parliaments at any time. It would be much preferable and much more honest on the part of those responsible for the bringing forward of the"e proposals if they had submitted to the people a question on tlw abolition of State Parliaments. This Bill in its very e'sence means that State Parliaments are to go and we shall be here drawing our salaries absolutely for nothing. We shall have no right of say in the community and shall be relegated to bumbledom. It must never be forgotten that the men overseas are fighting for a victorious end to this war to preserve for them constitutional government and democratic principles and rights. What will the Commonwealth he in the hands of a Government or Govermnents without any Constitution~ I ask hon. members: 1vhat will the postion be~ Shall we not be relegated to the mere standing of the Balkan States prior to the 1914 war, when those States had no Constitution~ Was that not the cause of the war in the Balkan States~ Various parties came into power, but the masses were the last to receive consideration. A similar posi­tion can be brought about in this Common­wealth without the legislation that at least surrounds politicians and so preserves the con­stitutional rights of the people.

It[r • .Maher: You are getting fantastic.

Jir. RIORDAN: It may app·ear fantastic to the hon. member, who intends to seek Federal honours, although I think he will still have ahead of him the job of being hon. mem­ber for \V est Moreton. I give as my honest opinion that if this measure is brought before the people and carried it will not be long before there will be a Fascist dictatorship in Australia.

lUr. Mall er: You are overstating the case.

Mr. RIORDAN: The hon. member does not overstate a case at any time, does he, particularly when it affects himselH On this occasion I am stating a case for the people I represent. I have received letters from members of the fighting forces who are

alarmed at the trend of what is taking place in many sections of the fighting services, where officers and other persons come forward and have been openly advocating for a con­sid·erable time that after the conclusion of the war unless they get their rights as they see them they should take them.

That position should not have arisen, but that statement is being made in the various camps of our fighting forces in Australia. I have in my possession letters from men who are genuinely alarmed at the statements that have been made. It is no good the hon. member for \V est Moreton 's saying that I am overstating my case. I am merely stat­ing the case as I see it.

Recently, upon reading the debate-and this may please some hon. members opposite and possibly many people outside-I found that with all this reference to the adoption of the Statute of Westminster >Clause 3 of the Bill that was adopted by the Federal Parliament reads-

" It is hereby declared and enacted that the Parliament of a dominion has full power to make laws having extra-territorial operations.''

Does the adoption of the Statute of West­minster give the Commonwealth Government the right to legislate for conscription f~r service overseas, outside the mandated tern­tories of Australia, of any person who may be subject to a call-up~

Jir. Brand: If the Government so deter­mine.

}Ir. RIORDAN: Upon reading the report of the debate I find that Mr. Menzies drew attention to the Government's present power to legislate for conscription for service over­seas of men who may be subject to call-up.

lUr. Pie: It is clear that they have it.

J)lr. RIORDAN: Is not this again a viola­tion of some of the principles of the party to which I belong~

Jir. Jiaher: You would be opposed to it?

lUr. R.IORDAN: I should be most emphatically opposed to it.

l\Ir. Jiaher: Yet you want the Americans to come here and fight for us.

.Mr. R.IORDAN: I am not concerned about whether the Americans or anyone else comes here. I am emphatically opposed to the adop­tion of any Act unless its meaning is explained fully to the people. If they had been honest about the thing, they would have said, ''This means that we can legislate to send outside the mandated territories of Aus­tralia men who are called up.'' That would have been the honest thing to do.

}fr. Brand: The p·eople would not have passed the endorsement of the Statute of Westminster.

}fr. R.IORDAN: I do not know whether they would agree or disagree, but if they would not approve of it that is all the more reason why this proposal should uot have

878 Commonwealth [ASSEMBLY.] Constitutio:nal Convention.

been carried through Parliament without a full explanation by the Minister as to just what is meant.

Dr. Evatt is a brilliant man who has stepped down from a very high place in the ,community, and I think he may be actuated by hone~t motives, but we must not lose sight of the fact that the Senate is not going to be abolished, the adoption of clause 3 means the conscription for service overseas of people who may be called up in Australia, the High Court is to be swept out of the way, and all this is being done by a Federal Government who owe some allegiance to their party and their platform.

What does Dr. Evatt seek to achieve~ A referendum will only divide the people at the most critical time in Australia's history. 'rhe soldiers who are fighting for constitutional government and democracy will not be able to give a proper vote 01: express a proper opinion because they will have no opportunity of having the pros and cons put before them fully and clearly. Then there are thousands of men who will have no vote ail all because they are prisoners of war in the various countries of the world. Despite all this it is proposed to foist upon us, by using 'the golden bait, ''Social justice and economic security,'' on a sharp-pointed hook, some­thing that in my opinion is the first step towards Fascism in this country.

It will be a sorry day not only for Queens­land but for the whole of the smaller States if the proposals of the Commonwealth Govern­ment are put into effect. I feel sure-and I say this with all confidence-that if the pro­posals are put before the people in their present form they will be rejected by an overwhelming majority.

If thev want to abolish State Parliaments why not' have the courage and the honestv t~ put the issue to the people in that wayW There should te no necessity to have nicely-worded phrases or sugar-coated pills in order to bring ahout eueh changes. Let the persons con·­cerned put the matter honestlv before the people. They are not doing that, and they are not attempting to do it. They have ignored their own party and they have ignored the common-sense view of the people of Aus­tralia in Reeking to hold a referendum in a time of crisis such as this country is going throuf!h.

What has a system of centralised govern­ment done? Centralised government has done more than anything else to devitalise other countries in the world, and it may do the same in Australia. Australia is a large con­tinent that is crying out for development par­ticularly in the less-industrialised State~, but a preponderance of politicians in Victoria and New South Wales can at all times keep these States in subjection.

Let me give a few reminders to hon. mem­bers to impress upon them what the proposals mean. First of all, I wish to draw attention to the neglect of Queensland-especially the northern part of Queensland-and of the Northern Territory by a previous Federal

Government from the viewpoint of defence. There was a controversy in the Press in which it was said that it was possible to get only four trucks on the Darwin wharf, and, because of the concentration of shipping, the waterside-workers were holding a stop-work meeting in Darwin when the ,TapR arrived. 'rhat is a lie. The men were at work on the wharves. There are many hundreds of water­side-woTkers who were killed in the raid whilst seTving their country by attending to their work. However, there are people who say that the waterside-workers were holding a stop­work meeting at the time of the raid, but the people who say that are telling a deliberate untrutl1.

l\'[r. necker: They were actually work­ing on the wharf.

l\Ir. RIO RH AN: Yes, and on the boats. Some of the men never had a chance to get back to the wharf. They were actually killed while doing their work. However, there are people going round the country maligning the men who are doing a very good senice for Australia. Let me draw attention to the state of affairs that existed just before the present Federal Labour Government came into office. According to ~1r. Ward, the Federal Minister for Labour and National Sen·ice, the whole of North Queensland was to be evacuated. Of course, his statement has been very viciously challenged, but I know and other hon. members know that the women and children in the North were evacuated as far as possible because they could play no part in tlte war effort. They were the only people to leave the northern part of Queensland and the northern part of Australia because they were the only ones there to leave. If the attention and development of the N ortheru Territory can be taken as a guide to what may be expected in the development of the State under a centralised form of govern­ment, then God help the smaller States of Australia.

Let me refer, too, to the raw deal handed out to Queensland in the recent appointment of the Australian Meat Board, or Commis­sion. An hon. member referred to it this afternoon. \Vhat is the personnel of the board f One of the most able and practical men in the marketing of meat is to be found in Queensland in the person of Mr. Sunners, the chairman of the Queensland Meat Industry Board. There is another very competent man in New South Wales in tlle employ of the New South Wales Government. These people were overlooked, and in their place was appointed a Mr. Bowater, a representative of V esteys, one of the biggest meat concerns in Argentina, a country that owes no allegiance to Australia or the Empire. Then there is a Mr. Taucred, another representative of big vested interests. Our own men were over­looked. What representation was given to the unions~ Mr. N eumann, who was Federal secretary of the Australian Meat Industry Employees' Union, was never consulted nor considered, nor was his committee consulted or considered. The Federal authorities saw

Commonwealth [3 NovEMBER.] Constitutional Convention. 879

fit to appoint Mr. Tierney, the secretary of the Meat Industry Employees' Union in New South "\V ales.

From my point of view, the main points toot may be apposite to the proposed con­stitutional amendments are-

1. Giving the Commonwealth absolute power may ''provoke a central despotism capable of stifling all liberty' '-the wry thing 1ve are fighting against to-day.

(2) History provides shocking examples of hoi\ centralisation has ''enslaved and deYitalised'' whole nations, to sa;: noth­ing of contemporary eYents in Germany, Italy, anu France.

(3) ''Efficient administration,'' as ·we all know, may easily become another name for a centralised, gutless, heartless, and mechanical bureaucracy of the worst tape-bounu type. •

( 4) A proper system of local goYcmment -especially as Australians have a whole continent to develop-1vould be the best safeguard of national institutions, particu­larly the institutions that stand as a guarantee of our individual freedom.

I believe that all the proposals placed before the Federal Parliament by the Pederal Attorney-General aro capable of fulfilment within the constitution of the Stute and .B'cderal Labour Party. I believe also that no good purpose can be served during a period of war by introducing matters that are both controyersial :md contentious. \Ye could easily visualise what may happen. We could haYe the most deplorable disunity in the community without achieving any good purpose.

"\Vhen the time comes for the submission of these proposals to a referendum 1 hope that the people will see that they are over­whelmingly defeated.

)fr. BRAND (Isis) (5.42 p.m.): The pro­posals submitted to us through the good offices of the Premier arc the proposals of the Commonwealth Labour Go,·ermnent. They arc not the proposals of the Peder~l Attomey-General, Dr. Evatt. Dr. EYatt IS

merely the instrument of the Federal ~overn­ment. Naturally these proposals, 1Yh1ch con­cern the Parliament of Queensland, must haYe careful consideration by this Parliament. I look upon the Constitution as the birthright of the electors in that its heritage is free to all people, and the GoYernment can ~nly enact legislation within that Constitution. That gives the Constitution its great strength. When we contemplate changes in the Consti­tution we must take care to see that the rights of the people are not endangered.

It has been contended by the members of the Queensland Labour Party that the Federal Labour Govemment are threatening to amend the Commonwealth Constitution in a way that will deprive the people of their sovereign rights and make easy the overthrow of democracy in Australia in post-war years; in other words, to make the way easy for

the setting up of Fascism or Communism. I do not know how they establish that con­tention, but to say the least it is a very serious criticism of any political part;' in Australia to-day. Every political party has shown quite conclusively that it is actuated by the best of motives to maintain the flemocracy we are fighting for both here in Australia and overseas. We are fighting against Fascism, and the setting up of any dictatorial political movement that would deprive our people of the freedom demon·acy gives us.

These proposals, too, have been state,) by Queensland Labour Ministers to be :t viola­tion of ~ab our's platform, which, by the way, prondes for unification. It m~ty he so; I do 110t know. H has been suggested that 1t 1rould be more honest for the Federal Government to take a referendum on the abolition of State Parliaments.

~Ir. Yeates: That would be the honest thing at the proper time.

~Ir. BRAND: I will not say that would he the best thing to do. The hon. rnembcr for Mackay is a recognised leader of poli­tics in Australia to-day. He is personally acquainted with the personnel of the Federal Labour Government. His criticisni of their proposals, together 1vith that of the Premier, are com·incing, and show that Queenoland at least cannot trust the Pederal Labour Gowrn· ment, a Government who would seek to rleny Queensland her sovereign right to presen-e and control legislation, and remove constitu­tional safeguards so as to open the way for a system of Fascism or Communism in" A us· tralia. , If tlwt vieiY is accepted, thev are not a bovernment who cleserv0 any considera­tion from Queenslanders.

'l.'he Secretary for Labour and Employ. ment: Are you 1:rying to work in party politics~

~Ir. BRAND: I think I heard the hon. gentleman mtrocluce something in his sneech about the Moore Government. He doe~ not like it thrown back at him.

Tile Secretary for Labour and Employ­ment: I did not mention the Moo re Government.

3Ir. BRANJ): The hon. gentleman did mention the Moo re Government; let him read his speech.

I agree that no Government have any right to alter the Constitution in any way except by referendum of the people on the alteration. The hon. member who just resumed his seat holds a similar opinion. These proposals will have to go to the people by way of referendum after they have been discussed by the representatives of the various Parlia­ments at the proposed convention.

Have we not reason to fear any Labour Government in regard to tampering with the Constitution~ What has been our experience of referendums in Queensland~ Hon. members will remember that on 5 May,. 1917, the Labour Government of Queensland sought the

880 Co·;nnwnwealth [ASSEMBLY.] Constitutional Convention.

opinion of the electors by way of referendum on the abolition of the Upper House. The result was as follows:-

For 116,196 Against 179,105 :\1ajority against 62,909

Notwithstanding that overwhelming vote against the abolition of the Upper House the I~abour Government abolished the Upper House without taking a further referendum. The change was effected by parliamentary control.

The Attorney-General: After a mandate had been got from the people at the elections.

JUr. BRAND: The hon. gentleman who has interjected knows very well that the aim of his political party is the abolition of the Senate-the only body in the Federal Pm·lia­ment to protect the States of Australia.

JUr. Copley: You are not making a party­political issue of it W

iUr. BRAND: No. A Bill to formulate proposals and give greater powers to the Commonwealth Parliament has passed the first reading and will be submitted to a convention consisting of representatives of the Common­wealth and State Parliaments. with equal representation from each side of the House. I am not going to agree that that is a proper representation for any alteration of the Constitution.

Tlie Secretary for Public Instruction: You should have been invited; you are repre­senting your own party; I think you are annoyed.

)}fr. BRA:Nn: I am not annoyed. This Parliament will be represented by the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition­two men who know the opinions of their rf'spcctiw parties. Both hon. gentlemen have stated their case to this Parliament. The Leader of the Opposition has plainly stated that >vhil8t he is not in fa,:our of the sweep­ing chang"s asked for by the Commonwealth Government he believes the Commonwealth Government should have some greater powers. As I understand the situation, all the political parties of the Commonwealth are agreed that some alteration-some extra powers-are neces· san- to enable the Commonwealth to legislate for. the peace, order, and good government of Australia in the post-war years.

The Constitution is a legal instrument that requires careful consideration and the Premier will have the advantage of being able to obtain legal interpretations from officers of the Crown Law Department. The presence of the hon. member for Murrumba, the Leader of the Opposition, is also important, and he, too, should be entitled to independent legal opinion.

Mr. Copley: Are you going to join his party again~

lUr. BRAND: The hon. member is being facetious.

llir. Copley: I think it is pretty obvious.

l'I'Ir. SPEAKER: Order!

}Ir. BRAND: The hon. member is becoming very facetious. The Leader of the Opposition is at least entitled, as the Premier will have the benefit of advice from the Crown Law Department, to have legal repre­sentation provided by the State. I will not say that the hon. member for Kurilpa wou!i! not be a good counsel for him.

}f.r. Copley: If you could get back to that party they would be pleased to have you back. They are very sorry that you are out of the party.

Jir. SPEAilER: Order!

Jir. Copley interjected.

:ur. SPEAilER: Order ! The hon. m em­ber for Kurilpa must observe my call to order, otherwise I shall have to denl with him.

lUr. BRA:Nn: I believe that some altera­tion in the Constitution is necessary. 'rhe Commonwealth requires some additional powers. 'l'he leader in the Brisbane ''Courier­Mail'' of 30 October coincides verv well with my ideas when it states- ·

''While the State Parliament will be expected to give very close attention to this particular proposal, which \\'Ould virtually eliminate the High Court as a custodian of constitutional rights, it should also consirler alternative means of adapting the Constitution to serve the requirements of post-war reconstruction.

''What additional powers, if any, will the Commonwealth Parliament need after the war~ and

''How can it be invested with them without impairing any of the constitutional safeguards which have well served both States and citizens for 40 years'"

Jir. Nimmo: Do you not think that if the Commonwealth asked the people for the powers separately they would get· them~

.:lir. BRAND: I disagree with the sug­gestion that the Commonwealth should be vested 1vith powers that would override the Constitution if Parliament declared such an Act was for the purpose of achieving economic security and social justice, but I am conYinced the people would demand that some alteration take place. In the post-war years the people, especially the returned soldiers, will not be satisfied with the condi­tions that prevailed after the last great war. I believe that when Dr. Evatt said that things would be swept aside he made the statement that the pledges given to the soldiers must be honoured by the Government and those disagreeing with the granting of the requisite powers to do so would be swept aside.

I have read Dr. Evatt 's statement sub­mitted to us. As older members of Parlia­ment know many Bills taken to the first­rearling stage in a Parliament have never been placed on the statute-book, and I believe that this Bill was taken to that stage merely as an agenda to be placed before the repre· sentatives at the proposed convention. It

Commonwealth [3 NovEMBER.] Constitutional Convention. 881

:must be kept in mind that both the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition will deal with the matters set out in this Bill as an agenda for discussion, and no person in his wildest dreams will think that the Bill will go to the electors in its present form. We, as parliamentarians, must endeavour to submit to our delegates something that will be satisfactory to both the Commonwealth and the States.

lUr. Ilunstan: There are some basic principles still to be observed.

l\Ir. BRA~D: I recognise that, but Dr. Evatt has said that his Government and the Parliament of the Commonwealth have accepted the clauses contained in the Atlantic Charter.

The Secretary for Health and Home .Affairs: It is easy enough to accept that.

:::\Ir. BRAXD: The Atlantic Charter states the war aims of the United Kations, and it makes pledges to the world and to humanity.

Tile Secretary for Health and Home Affa.irs: H is as full a freedom as any­body would expect.

JUr. BRAXD: Clause 4 of the Atlantic Charter says-

" They-that is, the United Nations­will encleavour, with due respect to exist­ing obligations, to further the enjoyment of all States, great or small, victor or nmquished, of access to all raw materials of the wor Id needed for economic pros­perity.''

How is the Commonwealth going to comply with that when the six States control the raw materials~ I realise that it is going to be Yrry difficult indeed to carry out that "charter.

The Premier: The most important thing in that cLimection is the tariff, and the Commomwalth already controls the tariff.

lUr. BRXND: The provrswn of raw materials for all countries in the world, whether victor or vanquished, is not going to l.Je easy for the Commonwealth Government unless "some additional powers are given to it. It will need some powers other than those held under the Constitution at present.

JUr. Collins: The Commonwealth Govern­ment have no power to-day to deal with unemployment.

lUr. BRAND: They certainly have not, -but they should have power to deal with that, because that, after all, is a Common­\YBalth matter.

Various opinions have been expressed by hon. members as to what powers should be ·given to the Common wealth. When speaking in :Melbomne in 1934, the Hon. \V. Forgan :Smith said-

'' I am entirely in favour of central power being invested in the Federal Government. I do not suggest for a moment that the whole of the Common­wealth of Australia should be controlled

and administered from Canberra. Such a proposition would be absurd and entirely impracticable. But I believe in the centralisation of that authority in the :E'ederal Government with the delegation of powers by that Government in turn to provincial authorities, which would haV'-' local autonomy in carrying out the func-tions delegated to them.'' .

The Leader of the Opposition has indicated that he believes that certain powers should be given to the Commonwealth Government. For instance, I see no reason why we should not give them exclusive powers over the health of the communitv. What need is there to. have two .bodies cor'itrolling the health of tins country rf that work can be carried out satisfactorily by only one~

Since federation social services have been expanded enormously and Queensland has done much in that direction, but there is no reason why the Commonwealth Government s~ould not shoulder S?me of the responsibili­tres . for them especrally those relating to pubhc health. I cannot see why there is any need for two public-health authorities when the Commonwealth Government could very reasonably be expected to deal with this national problem under a system wherebv it could delegate some of its powers to ~the States.

Then t.here is the very controversial subject of taxatwn. Only recently the High Court of Australia expressed the opinion that the laws passed by the Commonwealth Parliament to give it the sole right to collect income tax for the period of the war and 12 months thereafter was valid. I think the law is a good one, and I am of the opinion that it is welcomed by the people of Queensland and of Australia generally. Are we not entitled to say that the Commonwealth should con­tinue to be the sole income-tax authority in the post-war years and perhaps for all time'! I am of the opinion that such powers should be included in the Constitution by means of a referendum submitted to the people. At the forthcoming constitutional convention the Leader of the Opposition may press the point that the Commonwealth be given power to carry out a uniform-tax plan for the Common­wealth for all time. Although we as members of Parliament may have differences of opinion upon the subject, I think the opinion should be expressed at the forthcoming convention that the present plan should remain in force long after the war is over and that the Commonwealth Government should be the sole authori~y to collect income tax throughout Australia. That would be a good thing for Queensland, too.

Mr. Power: In your opinion.

Mr. BRAND: It would be a good thing for our secondary industries, because the success of secondary industries depends largely upon a uniform tax for Australia. How often have entrepreneurs declined to establish new industries in Queensland because the tax burden was lighter in Victoria than in Queensland and so chose to establish their industries in Vietoria and to manufacture

882 Commonwealth [ASSEMBLY.] Constitutional Convention.

their goods there, which were afterwards exported to Queensland and sold in this State, through agents. As Queensland produces a great deal of raw material this State has a right to expect every consideration whereby it will be able to use its own workers to produce its own goods for its own use. That} matter is closely associated with the subject of arbitr;;,tion and employment. Here again we have two systems of arbitration in Queens­laud-the Federal system and the State system. I have yet to learn that the people operating under a Federal award desire to transfer to the jurisdiction of the State. Personal1y, I think the State system is the better, but the subject is of national import­ance and one for mature consideration.

. A few yea1:s ago Queensland and Australia, m common w1th the rest of the world, suffered from what was described as an economic de-pr~ssion. The people are firmly of the opmwn that 110 other depression should be allowed to overtake Australia or any other part of the world.

Mr. Power: No more Moore Government nnd no more depression.

Mr. BRAND: I cannot see how we shall be able to avert a depression unless the Commonwealth Government are given the power to do so. Since 1930 Queensland has had to pay very close and earnest attention to the subject of unemployment. The matter is of national importance, and it is one that the States have tackled in order to make the necessary adjustments leading to economic stability.

It may be said that this State did more than other States, but the fact remains that from 1930 until now unemployment has shown an equal decline in every State. There is no unemployment to-day, and there should not he any in the post-war period if power suffi­cient is granted to the Commonwealth Govern­ment. Why should we not recognise these facts when we are considering the proposals submitted to us in an agenda for a confer­ence arranged by the Commonwealth Govern­ment~ The Commonwealth Government can more adequately deal with unemployment than the States. They control the Customs, excise, and bounties. They control the tariff with which the development of industry and employment is wrapped up. A transfer of such power to the Commonwealth Government would not affect this State. In fact, it will do all States a service by making the laws respecting employment uniform. It is said, and I believe, we have a great future, and that being so we must have faith in our National Parliament to handle questions that concern the good of all people within the States. I see no objection to the Common­wealth Government's being granted that power.

Then there is the very important question of irrigation. It would not be possible under the system that the State has to work under to-day to carry out any complete irrigation system. Dr. Bradfield has submitted a big irrigation scheme, but it is beyond the financial capacity of the State. The system

of irrigation that he proposes is a national one, and, therefore, if it is to be giv<Jn effect to it must be carried out by the Commonwealth Government. Why slwuld not the Common­wealth Government be granted that power'!' We cannot say that we have carried out any really valuable irrigation work since we have been a Parliament. Certainly, we have carried into effect several small schemes such as the Theodore and the Burdekin schemeR, but we really have no progress to show in irrigation over a long period of years that would tend to water our wonderfully fertile lands during the periodic droughts we experience. The Commonwealth can tackle such a question in a national wav as will enable us to fill this land with prosperous people. Irrigation is certainly a matter that should be dealt with by the Commonwealth Government.

Then there is the important subject of repatriation. I have heard it said that Queensland did a very good job after tl1e last war in repatriating our soldiers who fought on the battlefields. In my opinion Australia did a very bad job. I have found no body of public opinion that would like a similar policy in the repatriation of our men in the coming post-war years. They look for something better. That something must be within the province of the Commonwealth Government. The Commonwealth Govern­ment possess the necessary powers for the defence of Australia and to enlist men for the fighting services; therefore, that Govern­ment should repatriate them. I know that after the last war the Commonwealth Govern­ment found money and all'owed the States to settle the soldiers. but we have very little Ruccessful repatriation to Jshow for it. Admittedly the question is a very difficult one.

)fr. Muller: Would you not recommend: that the Commonwealth Government do it through the States~

Mr. BRAND: If the Commonwealth had full power they could delegate them to the various States.

Then we have the very important question of transport. At present we have six controls in our railway systems in Australia. The railwaYs are a national utility. They are doing , a great job to-day, particularly in Queensland in the great help they are giving to the war effort. The railwaymen generallv are doing a great job and they will do an equally great job under the control of thE' Commonwealth.

I could go on and say that education and many other such services could be made a national matter. There are many questions of great interest for consideration at the coming convention, and I believe that by amendments of the proposals we could decide on something that would be acceptable to the people.

The Statute of Westminster has been brought into the discussion, because of certain action taken by the Commonwealth Parlia­ment. I maintain that if the endorsement of the Statute of Westminster had been sub­mitted to the people of this country it would

Commonwealth (3 NOVEMBER.] Constitutional Convention. 883

have bee11 turned down by ten to one. I believe the people of this country were quite satisfied that Britain had never on one occasion refused to recognise our decisions.

The Attorney-General: Who passed the Statute of Westminster~

Jir. BRAND: The British House of Commons passed it and submitted it to the various dominions for their ratification, and it has only now been ratified in Australia. We were one of the last to ratify it, but had we not done so we had the satisfaction of knowing that if a Fascist Government were set up in Australia we could appeal to the British Government or the British Throne for some relief from it. The war aims of the people of Britain are such that they would not permit the setting up of a Fascist State even in any of their colonies or Dominions. We now completely control our destiny. Taking the Statute of Westminster with the proposals that have been submitted to us they provide the Commonwealth Government with sweeping powers to do everything they decide to do without any appeal to the High Court or British Throne. If a republic was contemplated those powers would be a dan­gerous control.

As far as I am concerned, I do not agree with the proposals as they have been sub­mitted to this Parliament through the Premier. I believe that some extra powers should be conferred on the Commonwealth Government, and I think the representatives <Jf this Parliament are entitled to amend the present proposals at the convention at the end of this month. I believe they will,. and I beliew that the temper of the present Federal Government is such that if we are not able to arrive at an agreement on these proposals they will submit them to the people as they are, and maybe, in view of what has happened in Cairns over the week-end, the people may accept them. I say to the delegates of this Parliament, ''Do all you ·can to ,,mend the proposals, at the same time protecting the powers that we should rightly possess in this State.'' I believe the Common­wealth Government will agree to suggestions ~ubmitted from this Parliament. As I said before, the convention will consist of an equal number of representatives of political parties and the same responsibility will lie on each. I believe the Leader of the Opposition, believ­ing that there should be some concession of powers to the Commonwealth, has a greater responsibility. I believe both delegates in this State will carry out their mission with advan­tage to the people of Queensland, always bearing in mind the need to raise a sBlf­reliant people in this country with faith in Bach other who will work for the betterment ,of mankind generally.

JUr. DECKER (Sandgate) (7.32 p.m.): I recognise that post-war reconstruction is a tremendous problem that will face the 'Commonwealth Government when the war ends-and I believe that will be in the very near future.

None of us can quibble at the points Bnumerated in the suggestions of the Com­monwealth for the amendment of the Con­:stitution. I think they have our support.

None of us, for instance, can quibble at the freedom they speak of. The way in which those things are to he implemented, however, is a different matter altogether.

I realise that the Commonwealth should haYe the help of all the States and of the people of the Commonwealth in post-war reconstruction, but we can all differ as to how these objects should be accomplished. I am against the centralisation of power, parti­cularly to the extent of having the Common­wealth Government handling most of the problems now dealt with by t)J.e States. The problems of each of the States would be uppermost in the minds of its representa­tives, and it would not be possible to obtain the necessary general support for the pro­gress of schemes affecting particular States. 'l'he larger States would have such a pre­ponderance of representation that the problems of a State such as Queensland, with its smaller representation, would be lost sight of. Looking at the matter broadly we ask ourselves: what have the Commonwealth Government done up to date to be worthy of our complete trust and confidence in hand­ing over the reins of government to them~ We have had sufficient illustratit>ns over the vears to know that we cannot achieve better progress in a State than by ;having represen­tations in a State Parliament working in the closest collaboration with a central Commonwealth authority.

We cast our minds back to separation in 1859. When we broke away from New South Wales we had a population of 23,500, but immediately a Government was set up in Queensland the colony attracted people to it. Immediately a Government is given to a people the opportunities are enormous, as it is a guarantee of progress by way of their own local instrument. So to-day the popula­tion has increas·ed by over 1,000.000. That speaks for itself. But what do we find in the Northern Territory~ There is a population there of less than 9,000. Yet it is a large area with great possibilities, but really all the Commonwealth Government have done has been to appoint administrators. There has been no real progress, no results in that area. We find politicians in the Federal arena making statements on populating North Queensland, but what are these representa­tives doing to populate the Nort;hern Territory under their control1 That appears to be of minor importance to them. It is to be regretted that the population of the Northern Territory is not large enough as to warrant its having a State Government. If it was established, people would be immediately interested in that territory, and it would progress. There is no doubt that centralisation retards the progress of a State, and t)J.e Commonwealth Governments of the past as well as of the present have not been broad enough in their views and interests to help the States in solving the problems of rehabilitation, and so on.

Reverting to the period after the last, war, we find the Commonwealth Government, for want of foresight, made a tremendous problem in all of the States of the finding of employ­ment for discharged soldiers. Demobilisation

884 Commonwealth [ASSEMBLY.] Comtuutional Convention.

was too sudden. The principal interest of the Commonwealth Government appeared to be to dismiss men from the services and flood the labour market with men looking for jobs that did not exist. That was a fatal mistake. One of the iirst duties of the Federal Government faced with the rehabilitation of soldiers is to take progressive action to meet the position. I have given some thought to this matter, and suggest the following as an outline:-

1. That the Commonwealth Government should arrange to have a gradual demobilisation of troops;

2. That quick discharge should be given to members of the forces able to re-establish themselves in civilian occupation;

3. That generous leave concessions be given to enable members of the forces to investigate their home possibilities of employment.

By that means we can support these mem­bers of the armed forces-that is the arm;y, navy and the air force-until they can obtam emplbyment or we can create employment for them. If it is not possible to do that ove.r a period we should establish at the same tn~e vocational training so that these men Will be available for new occupations that may be offering in this country.

~Ir. Taylor: What would you train them for~ Give us some idea of that.

:Jir. DECKER: I have said alrea?Y th?-t we can train them in t~ose v::eati~ns .m which we can see that opemngs Will exist for them. Furthermore, the return of . these I~ en and thPir wholesale discharge fro;n the. army will mean that all of those soldiers Will ?e looking for employment in the it;dustnal field and such a position may anse that the ~nly way out of the d~fficulty \Yill be to establish a voluntary standmg army through­out the Commonwealth. That would be an excellent way of absorbing th.ese n;en, who are deserving of every conside~·ahon, for then they would at least have a JOb. After all if we are to preserve the peace we must ha~e power to do it, and the scheme I sug­gest must have some merit in that respect alone. In any ease, I put it forward not as a hard-and-fast proposal, but merely to point out what should be the Commonwealth's object in rehabilitation. The Commonwealth should consider these major principles and lay down rules and depend then on the help of the States to carry them out.

I remember that last year we passed an Act called the Co-ordination of Employment Facilities Act. I denounced it as being impracticable because I could see at once that this matter should be treated on a national basis. I think the State was very hasty in passing that Act because it looked as though the States were rushing to outdo each other in proposing schemes for post-war reconstruc­tion and planning, although there may be some advantages to be gained from it in that if the State can collaborate with other States, using this Act as a basis, it may be possible to develop a uniform Act for the

whole of Australia, under which the States, through the central Governm·ent, could play their part in dealing with post-war problems. I do not see how the Common· wealth Government can handle these post­war problems without the collaboration and co-operation of the States. In fact, I do not think it is possible for a central GoYernment to do it.

Mr. Collins: They do not suggest that they can.

Mr. DECKER: They do suggest that they can, as I shall point out later.

When our representatives meet to discuss this matter they should take every stand possible to preserve Queensland's rights and to foster Queensland's int~rests, and to point out that it is not possible to deYelop the States through a ce11tral political body without the aid of State Governm·ents. 1 make no claim for the continuanc? of State Governments, because any man who says that State Governments should go has not con­sidered the matter deeply, otherwise he wonld realise that State Governments are essential to the progress of the respective States. \Ve have to be broadminded and see to it that these proposals are put bef.ore the people in such a way as to prevent their losing si~ht of what the effect will be. We must remmd them of what it means to give up their. bir.th­right, their heritage, and the ConstitutiOn that has meant so much to the development of the State in the short time that has elapsed since the granting of separation in 1859.

Again, we have no cause for thanking the Commonwealth Government for implementing its National Security regulations dealing with our local industries, the primary-pro­ducing industries in particular. The way in which that matter has been handled is a shame. We are essentially a primary-produc­ing State, and we should point out that the problems associated with primary produc­tion are not separable from the war effOTt. We all know that a war cannot be conducted satisfactorily unless every industry that is essential to an efficient war effort is working smoothly. The primary-production field is not working in harmony with the war effort at the moment. No-one can tell me that the present system of iixing prices through a Commonwealth price-fixer can be satisfactory, or, still less, is giving entire satisfac­tion to the primary producers of Queensland. It clearly shows that everything has not been taken into consideration and that the people concerned did not haV'e the interest of the State warmly at heart'. Under their system of price-control or price-fixation little or no help has been given to the producers to encourage them to increase production, and yet that is an important aspect of the matter. Coupled with it, and of no less importance, is the subject of man-power. Can any of us honestly say that we are satisiied with the way in which the Commonwealth Government have controlled that matter 't Has it not been handled badly, because the States were not consulted~ Men were taken indiscriminately from primary and secondary

Commonwealth [3 NovEMBER.] Constitutional Convention. 8817

industTies regardless of the loss that has occmred in production, which we cannot afford to-day.

Then there are the petrol restrictions. They may not be too severe so far as they relate to the supply of petrol needed by farmers for l'Unning their petrol-driven machines, but the authorities have lamentably fallen down on the job by imposing restrictions upon petrol required by farmers for their own tractors and tTanspDl't services required to help in increasing production. More considera­tion should have been given to that phase of the subject with a view to increasing pro­duction considerably. Under the National Secmity Act the Commonwealth Government have commandeered machinery and farming implements belonging to primary producers and in this way they have retarded produc­tion. After considering all these factors we are forced to the conclusion that had the States been consulted before the appropriate National Security Regulations were adopted, the position would have been better than it is now. Primary production is inseparably linked with the war effort and that is a point to which paramount consideration should be given by the central Government. That con­sideration has not been given. When the war is over the countries that have taken part in it, especially those in Europe, will be short of food supplies and before any scheme of rehabilitation can be put into effect to a useful extent foodstuffs will be required by the people in those impoverished countries. 'rherefore, it should be clear to everyone that now is the time to build up reserves of foodstuffs, otherwise misery, starvation, and death will follow in the wake of the war. Therefore, it behoves us not to slacken primary production. It is our duty now to produce enough foodstuffs to supply civilian and army needs and the needs of England and other countries dependent on Australia as a source of supply, but above all it is our duty to build up reserves to feed the people in the impoverished countries when the war is over and the world is turning to peace. Therefore, increased primary production is not only a part of our war-time effort, but it is also linked with our post-war reconstruction plan,. and so we should produc·e the maximum amount of foodstuffs now instead of waiting till the war is over. If we can take that long view we shall save ourselves consider­able trouble and anxiety.

On looking through the Bill introduced by Dr. Bvatt, we see many honey-coated phrases such as freedom of speech and expression, religious freedom, freedom from want, and freedom from fear. I ask all hon. members, and for that matter, the people of Australia: do we not understand that to be the very foundation of our present democrac~·~ What is there new in that~ Do we not as democrats expect the right to enjoy freedom of religious worship, freedom of speech and expression, freedom from fear, and freedom from wanU I take it when such matt·ers are included in the Bill and clearly enumerated in that way, it can only be regarded as a honey-coated point intended to obscure an unfavourable background.

The Premier: They are only true so flU' as we are willing to give them to other· people.

~Ir. HECKER: That is exactly t:he point; Clause 3 of the Bill says-

'' All the powers conferred upon thEi Parliament by this section may be exercised notwithstanding anything contained else~ where in this Constitution or in the Con· stitution of any State and shall be exer· cisable as on and from a date to be pro" claimed by the Govemor in CounciL''

That clause has a veq wide implication and deserves more than passing attention, because it is one that can either build up or drag down a Constitution. In my opinion it breaks the Constitution. If the government of Australia is controlled by a party that has not democratic principles actuating it, it can break the Constitution.

'l'be Premier: It really breaks seven' Constitutions, the Commonwealth Constitution as well as the six State Constitutions.

Itir. nECKER: That is so.

When Dr. Evatt presented the Bill to Parliament he did not hide that point from Parliament, the States, or the people, for we find that he stated definitely-

" It is proposed that the Parliament should have power to make any law which• in its own declared opinion will tend to· achieve economic security and social justice, including security of employment and the provision of useful occupation for all the people. I desire to make it perfectly clear that the amendment I propose wil1 give the decision to Parliament itself, and no person will be able to challenge the validity of Parliament's decision.''

E'ancy giving that authority to the Common" wealth Government! Any one of us would know that it would not only be making an alteration or addition to the Constitution ae proposed but adding to it by regulations under the preceding section. All the safeguardS' would be gone, because under these powe:rs1 as the Bill discloses, nothing can be done to thwart the intention of Parliament. It is not an exaggeration to say that under this Bill, and under the cloak of its clauses, a Government need not hold an election, nor any referendum in the future. They could continue in office until they thought the time had arrived when it was advisable to have a change.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: They might be slow thinkers, too,

Itll'. DECKER: Probably they would be slow thinkers.

This Parliament and those who represent us at the forthcoming convention should make a special point of the need for an possible safeguards lacking in the Bil1. The' two mairl safeguards for which our represetJ.• tatives should contend are a safeguard for' our institutions, and a safeguard :for out' Constitution. This Bill does not provide for either. Without them, where are we as a

886 Commonwealth [ASSEMBLY.] Constitutional Convention.

State, and where are we as a people~ I -venture to say that this Bill will not have the support of many Australian Parliaments.

I suggest, too, that those who are support­ing these amendments are imbued with the idea of some new order. I am certain that the principles of Labour cannot be put into effect under them, nor the principles of those opposing Labour. The whole proposal is so dangerous that it needs all our care, all our urging, and all our support to see that it is not implemented in this form. Let us do something through our ordinary State channels. We do not want to run this con­tinent as States. We want to take a bigger view. Questions will arise in which the Commonwealth should have additional powers and if it is found that under the present Constitution the Commonwealth lacks the rtecessary powers and it is necessary to have the assistance of the States, then we shoulil see to it that these additional powers are conceded so long as they do not conflict with the Constitutions of our States. Let the States he big enough to offer every aid possible to the Commonwealth Government. Let us all face the question of uniformity throughout the length and breadth of A us­tralia. If we do so we shall get somewhere. There will not be any need then to hold a referendum of 'the people. Such matters can be amicably settled with sound judgment by the States themselves in collaboration with the Commonwealth GoYcrmnent.

lUr. TAYLOR (Enoggera) (7.56 p.m.): Never before in the history of my political connection with the Labour movement have I ever witnessed a greater get-together pro­posal than I have witnessed in this Parlia­ment as a result of this Bill for a change or alteration of the Constitution of the Common­wenlth brought down in the Federal Pm·lia­ment by a Labour Government.

If one thing more than another \Yas to .force the working class of Australia to sup­port these proposals it is the fact that the representatives of Big Business and of the working class in Parliament are at last in the one camp. There must he a great deal wrong with the proposals from the point of view of Big Business. That alone would make it imperative for the workers to analyse the opposition of those opposing these constitutional alterations. To-day, we must realise that we cannot wait to give the supreme Parliament of the Commonwralth the powers it may find necessary to deal with the problems that will face this countrv when the war ends and we have to deal with post-war problems. It would he useless-I sav

definitely useless-to attempt to defer taking ~ :referendum of the people on proposals that would be found necessary to handle the sub­jects it would be necessary to handle as soon !lS the war ends. Do hon. members mean to tell me that after this war we shall have order and good government in this country unless the necessary powers are in the hands of the Federal Parliament~ Do they mean to tell me that it is possible to wait until you have to do the job~ There is nothing to my mind more necessary to-day than the proposal put

forward by the Federal Government. When I listened to the hon. member for Bowen make a statement to this House that the Federal caucus was not consulted about the Bill, I wondered if one Yoi0e was raised against it by the members of the Federal Labour Party who are alleged to have given that information to the hon. member for Bowen? Ha Ye we to believe that or just take it \Vith a grain of salt: If it is true, then the rank and file of the Federal Labour Party are as much to blmne as Dr. Bvatt in the eyes of the people who opposed the Bill for allowing it to go down to the If ousP without their having a say in it. I venture to say that a man like Dr. Bvatt, a recognised con­stitutionalist, and a man who has harl years of experience on the High Court of Australia, would not bring down a measure like this if he thought it was not going to be beneficial to the people of Australia who support the party for whom he brings down the Bill.

One thing comes to my mind Yory forcibly aml that is the fact that Dr. Evatt has had experience on the High Court; and if Dr. E\'att thought the High Court was a valuable and powerful instrument of judgment as far as the Australian people are conccn1er1, then Dr. E,,att would not want to nullify any of the pmYers the High Court may possess. Evi­dently, the experience Dr. Evatt had. on the High Court has led him to believe that the power to give effect to the will of the people should be vest eel finally in their representa­tives elected by the people to the Federal Par­liament. And what is wrong with thnt?

JUr. PIE: I rise to a point of order. Is it correct for any hon. member of this House to attack the High Court of Australia~

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I did not hear the hon. member for Enoggera attacking the High Court of Australia.

lUr. TAYLOR: Those are facts that can­not be denied. The man who has had experience in the judiciary is the very man who is sponsoring this Bill on behalf of the Federal Labour Party.

Let us see where we get to in regard to the party's programme. Here is the last known decision of the Federal Conference on Platform and Policy. Its objective is the socialisation of industry, production, distri­bution, and exchange. If it was going to be implemented by the measure now proposed by Dr. Evatt and the Federal Labour Party, that would necessarily bring together all the representatives of big business and the reactionaries who do not represent big business against the proposals. But there is no intention in the proposals submitted by the Federal Labour Party to the Commonwealth Parliament other than to carry out the planks of the platform that were agreed to at the Federal Convention held in Canberra in May, 1939. There is evident in some of these proposals the desire of the Labour Party in Australia to raise the ques­tion of State Parliaments and the reorienta­tion and reorganisation of Federal and State powers.

Commonwealth [3 NoVEMBER.] Constitutional Convention. 887

The Secretary for Public Lands: What is the date of the convention in 1939 ~

)!r. TAYLOR: May. It states here-

'' Amendment of the Commonwealth Con­stitution-'l'o invest the Commonwealt;h Parliament with unlimited legislative powers and authority to create (or re-order) the States or Provinces with delegated powers.''

That is the crux of the whole position as regards those who believe in State rights as against the rights of a Commonwealth GoYemment. of the people.

)Ir. Healy: Have you any objection to that?

lUr. TAYLOR: I have no object:ion to that, and I will support the proposal for that reason.

A Government 3Iember: It is not in the proposed amendment.

Mr. TAYLOR: It is. It is contained in the preamble, and also Part 1 of the Bill, which states that Parliament shall haYe full power-

'' to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth, its territories und all places under its juris­diction and control for the purpose of carrying into effect the war aims and objects of Australia as one of the United ?\rations, including the attainment of f,conomic security and social justice in the post-war world, and for the purpose of post+ \Yar reconstruction gRnerally. ''

That is broad enough to embrace the pro­posals contained in the Labour Party's plat­form. Permit me to point out, too, that the Bill includes this:-

''Without limiting the generality of the foregoing subsection, it is hereby declared that the power of the Parliament shall extend to all measures which, in the declared opinion of the Parliament, will tend to achieve economic security and social justice, including security of employment and the provision ond useful occupation for all the people, and shall include power to make laws with respect to''--

The Attorney-General: Social justice and economic security.

Mr. TAYLOR: I have heard that before from other places, but the fact remains that these proposals are necessary, not when the chaotic conditions are upon us and when tllis country and the world generally will be in a maelstrom of distress and poverty, not when there is an economic breakdown as the result of the bungling that has occurred in this war. We must be prepared and ready to grapple with some of the problems that will occur, and to get the results we need. Hon. members of the Labour Party on my left may be honest in their opposition to these pro­posals, but can they honestly and faithfully oppose them when they realise that the programme of the Labour Party has fOT years contained such a proposal as is laid down in this Bill~

The Secretary for Public Lands: Did you oppose the referendum in 1937 ~

Mr. TAYLOR: The introduction of ali! initiative and referendum is necessary, and could be brought about by the altered situa~­tion of the Commonwealth Government if int the interests of the people it was fonnd' necessary to do that. These proposals w1l1 not be brought into operation before they are considered by the people.

Mr. Sparkes: You want to take a referen· dum when the flower of our manhood is away W

Mr. TAYLOR: The fact remains that lt n·ill not be possible to take a referendum at nil when you want these conditions to apply. 'fhat is my argument. Do you mean to tell me that hon. members are going to sit round this Chamber and observe the world situation from a distance and act as they did after the last >YUr?

l\Ir. Pie: They have full powers.

llir. '1'AYIJOR: They have not full powers'.

l\Ir. Sparkes: The States are willing to give it to them.

iUr. TAYLOR: We know perfectly well that in a democratic country democracy is vested finally in an initiative and referendum proposal. '.rhat is the proposal, and one cannot esrape the fact that that 1s tnt<"­rkmona ey.

li'Ir. Sparkes: Do you believe in taking a referendum when the flower of our m~'nhood i~ a\vay?

li'Ir. TAYLOR: I believe in the taking of a referendum when those who at the moment are in charge of the affairs of the Common· wealth think a referendum is necessary in order to achieYe good government and to make necessary provision for dealing with post->var problems. It is all very fine for' hon. members to ask when, but the worker& in Australia have been waiting for almos% 40 years, ever since the establishment o! the Commonwealth, for something to be donB" to give them economic security.

Mr. li'I,uller: Who are the workers?

Jlir. TAYLOR: Every person who works with his hands.

1\Ir. Pie: Of course. We are all workers-,

l\Ir. 'l'AYLOR: And they have no-11 achieved anything of value by that long wai~. Quite recently, in fact only t'YO sesswns ago, the party to which I belong in this State found it necessary in the dying hours of the session to bring down the Public Safety Act.

ll'lr. Rjordan: For which you voted.

lUr. TAYLOR: I did not vote for it.

Mr. Riordan: You did so.

l\Ir. TAYLOR: I was not in the House~.

Mr. Riordan: You voted for it in caucus.

Mr. TAYLOR: I did not vote for it in! caucus.

§88 Commonwealth [ASSEMBLY.] Constitutional Convention.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ber is entitled to make his speech without interruption, and I am going to see that he makes it without interruption.

}lir. }faher: Give him a fair go.

lUr. TAYLOR.: The Public Safety Act gin's four persons-the Premier, the Treasurer, the Minister for 'l'ransport, and Ul8 Secretary for Health and Home Affairs­power to run this State. if they find it necessary to do so, without consulting either Parliament or the people.

]Ur. Riordan: That is not true.

}Ir. TAYLOR.: It is the only enabling Act of its kind in anv of the States of the Commonwealth, and it" contains ~lO provision for referring questions to Parliament. In face of that we find that members of tlns State Labour Party are opposed to the Federal Labour Party's having similar powers-with parliamentary preservations-because t_Lese constitutional proposals will take away from the States some of those things that the Commonwealth finds it necessary to have for itself.

Take the position 1ve arc in to-rlay as a result of the fact that the war is finding its wav to Australian shores. We find that the Fe.deral Government have found it neces­sary to take virtual control of the railwll:Y -;ervice, that they have to take owr then O>Yil tran,;port, that they han~ to tal'e over priee-Jixing through the N atiom,l Security regulations, and that they have to do man:v: other things. Where the industrial la>Ys of the State conflict >Yith the laws o1 the Federal Government, those l<'ederal laws o.-enidc the Btate laws. \Ve mu~t accept the fact that the po\vers of the State Parliaments of the :futme are going to be restricted-and they must he-in the interests of progress and prosperity. If we are going to restrict the activities of the State-and we must-then we have to enlarge the authority and activities of the Commonwealth Parliament, and that is all that these proposals seek to do.

JUr. Pie: They have full power to do nnything now.

jlr. Riordan: Fascism.

:ilir. TAYLOR: There is nothing Fascist in these proposals. 'rhe fact that these pro­posals are to be submitted to a referendum proves that they are not Fascist.

The hon. member for Bowen dealt with Germany and Austria, and said that simi­lar sets of laws were introduced there. I want to refer the hon. mem:ber to the last two years of the Weimar Republic, when the people of Germany were controlled by the clerical Fascist Party under the chan· chellorships of Bruning and Von Papen. They paved the way for Hitler in Germany, and in Austria the Austrian policy was being dic­tated by Monsignor Seipel. In Gedye 's tc Fallen Bastions" we have the following !ltatement-

'' I have had to attend many funerals which made news, but I hope I shall never

see anything as terrible as the mass funerals of those 7 5 Socialist victims of the Government of Monsignor Seipel, the Priest-prelate. The coffins lay on 75 tall catafalques at the gates of the Central Cemetery.''

lUr. R.iordan: Sectarian to the neck.

~Ir. TJ .. YLOR.: The hon. member intro­duced that. He introduced the subject of German.-. He abused Dr. E1·att and accused him of 'being a party to the introduction of Fascism.

jir. Rim·dan: You are sectarian up to the neck.

l~Ir. TAYLOR.: The hon. member com­pared Dr. Evatt with Lava!, Petain, Weygand, and other such European personalities.

jfr. RIOR.IUN: l\Ir. Speaker, I rise to a point of order. The statement by the hon. member for Enoggera that I compared Dr. Evatt with Petain, Weygand, and Hitler is a deliberate lie.

l\Ir. SPEAKER.: Order! First of all, I ask the hon. member for Bo\\"en to withdraw the term '' deliberata lie.''

I\Ir. Riordan: The statement is untrue.

liir. SPEAKER.: Order! I ask the hon. member to withdnnv the term.

l\lr. R.iordan: I withdraw the term. It is untrue.

1\Ir. SPEARER.: The hon. member for Enoggera must accept the statement by the hon. member for Bmven.

l\Ir. TAYLOR.: Mr. Speaker, I am going to say that the proposition contained in the Commonwealth proposals-

liir. COPLEY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a point of order. Has the hon. member for Enoggera accepted the statement by the hon. member for Bow en~

I\Ir. SPEAKER.: Order! I ordered the hon. member for Enoggera to accept the statement of the hon. member for Bowen.

lUr. TAYLOR.: I did accept it. I did not say that I did not and so it follows. (Laughter). The fact remains that the Com­monwealth proposals are ones that the people of Australia will endOTse.

Let me deal with the subject of the treat· ment of returned soldiers. The repatriation problem after the last war will be of pigmy stature compared with those it will be neces,;ary to solve in consequence of the present war. Before this war is over and before we reach a totalitarian basis of economy we shall have one-third of the popu­lation of this country working to keep the other two-thirds in the army and production for purposes of destruction, and that is an economic fact that is going to cause chaos, regardless of when the war is over. We cannot continue along normal legislative lines to deal with the abnormal position that will arise from the economic circumstances that will be creatPd not by Parliaments, but from the ever­changing conditions arising from the war.

Cornm~nwealth [3 NovEMBER.] Constitutional Convention. ssg

Those ever-changing conditions will make it necessary that the Commonwealth shall be regarded by all returning Diggers, their supporters, friends, and relatives as being the only authority with any right to provide proper repatriation conditions and if the Commonwealth is wise it will take OYer the sole responsibility of dealing with repatria­tion conditions and requirements.

I have heard hon. members refer to regrettable overlapping in control and to the confusion that exists in connection with man-power. Why does it exist~ Because at the Premiers' Conference the :B'ederal Govern­ment agreed to gi,·e certain powers to the States to he exercised by State officers who we1·e to be appoinil'd ns Depnty Directors of Man-power.

'l'he Secrt>tary for Labour and Employ­ment: The State does not control that.

l"\Jr. TAYLOR: The fact remains that l~ddie Wanl made the statement in the Domain in Sydney and he is Minister for Labour and Natioiu1l Scn-ice in the Common­>vealth Government.

'l'he Secretary for Labour and Employ­ment: What I say is contained in a regula­tion passed by Eddie Ward.

lUr. TAYI,OR: Tl1at may be. There has l1een nothing but oYel'lapping and confusion and I know that there is confusion every­where. 1 lwve pointed out on more than oiie occasion in this House just where that con­fusion exists.

I >vant to repeat that the proposed Common­wealth constitntiona 1 changes will be requiTed if the elected representatiws of the people in the :B'ederal Parliament are to retain control of tl1e army-if they do not watch out. Only to-day a statement appeared in the Press to the effect that army officers were either ignoring the instructions or 1·eque~ts of the :Minister for the Army and the c-ivil-defence authorities or they did not know their job, and theY \Ye re >Yarned by the Minister for the ATmy that if they did not hurry up and do their job they would find themselves outside the pale.

JUr. Riordan: Who made that statement?

::l1r. TAYLOR: It was made by Mr. Forde, Minister for the Army. I know perfectly well that confusion exists. I have in my possession correspondence that I received from a soldier who 1·eturned to this country from New Gninea a month ago. The corre­spondence from the Minister for the Army told me that that man wonld be found eventually and would be returned to Australia in a short time. That man was already in Australia! Mr. Forde could not get the information from the army authorities to give him the trne facts of the case. I have possession of both of those letters and I shall make use of them in the campaign later on.

}fr. Riordan: Did you go to the man­power office to get a man released from service~

Mr. TAYLOR: I have never gone there to get any man released from service.

1\lr. Maher: You definitely advocated a release of an engineer.

I\Ir. TAYLOR: That was because he was deliberately and definitely taken out of a protected industry and put to digging trenches and sweeping out huts.

I\Ir. Riordan: That is not a disgrace, is it~

JUr. TAYLOR: We want production for the army to-day and there are any amount of people who are not physically fit to go to the front who could do that type of work.

lUr. Riordan: Did you threaten any man that you would put him in uniform?

I\Ir. 'l'AYLO!l:: I have not, nor have I gone to the man-power office or Allied Work>O Council to obtain the release of anv man called up. What I have to say I 'say in this House as a representative of the people in the interests of the people who elected me,

The people of Australia are ready for thr suggested change in the Constitution. Th proposals will give to the :B'ederal Govern­ment the authority they require. The Cairno by-election is an indication of how popular the State Government have become. The fact is that a decision was given at Cairns on Saturday to a party of persons who have neither power nor force behind them. They :ne an unorganised body although there may be a group of people interested in their financial proposals. Those people \\·ent as (·omplete strangers into a political constitu­ency held by the Labour Party as long as I enn remember and practically took jt from them. Surely we must realise that the aver" age man in the street to-day wants a change.

A long-range view has been taken by the Commonwealth Parliament. A long-range Yie>Y of the position is ver: necessary to clean: np the anomalies of the past. The anomalies of the National Security regulations havL been praYed over and over again. Every day when >Ye pick up the papers we read that tht Pederal Government cannot control black marketing as they have not the aut!Hnity to do certain things in certain places.

JUr. Riordan interjected.

Jl1r. TAYLOR: I understand there art! certain limitations in regard to the rights of the people. The hon. member for Boweu was entil·ely wrong when he said that all the privileges and all the freedom of the people will be filched from them by these constitu­tional proposals. According to him, they have already been filched from them. There­fore, these proposals cannot do any further harm. They will tend to strengthen tbe hands of the Federal Labour Government.

Whatever may be the result of this war-' whether in two, three, four, or five years we win by force of arms, or whether >ve have to accept a stalemate, or a collapse as a means of settling our international differences-we shall not have the same set of conditions operating as we have now. I firmly believe that we have the spectacle to-day of the normal law implemented by the National

890 Commonwealth [ASSEMBLY.] Constitutional Convention.

Security regulations to clean up the position that exists not being able to do the job in a ,satisfactory way.

I want to point out finally that I believe the people will vote for these proposals for no othe~ reason tha_n that they have dis· eovered m no uncertam way how two political {'amps have been brought together as one !:Je~ause. His. Majes~y 's Opposition no longer exists m tins Parliament, for it is part aml parcel of the Government in control of the Parliament of Queensland.

. ~Ir. COLLlNS (Cook) (8.27 p.m.): I :oelr~ve w.e should approach this very important su?Je:t m ~n atmosphere of calm and quiet t)nn~mg, Without any hos1ility ancl 1vithout ·sllowmg any bitterness, because-and I think we all agree on this-it is the most important .constitutional proposal that has been brought before the people of Australia since the Com­;n~nwealth was inaugurated in 1900. I belieYc It IS far and away the most important Bill this <:otm trv. has seen since the beginning of federatron; and surely as reasonable sen­sibl;, thinking men we can approach 'a hi()' sub.Ject such as this 1vith broad Yision and fair min~s ~ It. is on these lines that I pro­pose to rlrscuss It as far as mv limited abilitv ,,-m allow me. · •

There has been, as we all know, a tTc­mendom change in the ways of living anrl the order of things during the last 4~ vcars. The Com.monwealth Constitution, as ac~eptcd nt the bme of federation, seemed to cover t;Hl whole of the wants of the people under tne then existing conditions, but tremendous -changes have taken place and we must realise that a Constitution that was adequate 42 y~ars ago ma~ not he altogether in keeping w1th . the re9mrements of a young and pro­gressive nation such as this. For that reason I belieYe we should address ourselves to the question: does the Constitution as it stands at <the present time give to the Federal Go\ern­ment and the State Gm·ei·nments all the power t.hat it is 11ecessary for all those Parliaments to have in order successfully to carry on the deYelo-pment of this country-including the resettlmg of the people who are to-dav on active service a'?d in war industries~ Looking npon the question from that point of view, I conclude that the Constitution as it stands to-day does not give the Federal Parliament the necessary authority.

You may say the Commonwc8lth Parliament -h.as all the authority it wants at the present trme. I contend that it has not. beeause it is necessary now to plan and provide for the future peace, for the settling of thousands of men and women in some form of employment after they are demobilised. The present Consti­tution unquestionably does not give the Federal P~rliament control over unemployment, which will be apparent as soon as the >Yar is over unless pre-peace planning is undertaken. There is nothing in the Federal Constitution as it stands that gives the Federal Parliament power to take control over the unemployed. They can do it in war-time, when there are no nnemployerl-when there is difficulty in getting

enough people to do the necessary work-but there is nothing in the Constitution as we saw during the 10 years following the 1929 depression, to give the Commonwealth Parlia­ment any authority to take control of what was one of the worst bugbears this country has ever had to suffer-unemployment. If what I state is true-and I contend that it is-then I say it is time we did alter the Constitution to give the Federal Government that necessary power.

It is not proposed to put the Bill into operation in its present form but merely to use it as a basis for discussion for the pur­pose of amending the present Constitution in order that it will be a much more v;orkablc Constitution than it is. I maintain that the States-and this has a direct bearing on the relationship of the States to the Common­wealth-have been virtually stultified since the operation of the Financial Agreement arri>·ed at in 1927, when the referendum was carried giving the Federal Parliament respon­sibility for the whole of the States' debts.

As it had the responsibility for the total amount of the State debt the Commonwealth has more representation on the Loan Council than any one of the States. The Loan Council has, first of all, to approve of any expenditure to he incmred by the States, and from long ancl painful experience we know that the States, working under that agree· ment, have never been able to cope adequately with the problem of unemployment. The reason is not far to seek when one considen the relationship between States and the Federal GoYernment. In the first place, under that agreement the Commonwealth assumes responsibility for the present debts of the States and any further debts the States may incuT. Yet the States, and they alone, hav( the responsibility under the present Constitu­tion of finding work for the unemployed. 'l'o do that they go to the Federal Parliament and ask for a certain sum of money to be expended in the States. As the lending authority the Federal Government looks at them askance and lends the States money for which the Federal Parliament is responsible without haYing any say as to how that money will be spent by the States. Is it a fair relationship between lender and borrower, or creditor and debtor~ Would any hon. member agree to lend a person £10 if he >Yas of a shifty or changing character, as are the States inasmuch as a Government can be turned out at a general election~ There ma;· be one type of Government in power to-da;· and another to-morrow. -w oulcl any reason­able person lend money or give a blank cheqne under those conditions. I contend that is the present set-up because of the Financia 1 Agreement between States and Common­wealth. That has proYed a very unsatis­factory set-up, and for that reason we shoul<l approach the problem of endeavouring to alter the Constitution to enable the Federn 1 GoYernment to cope with all post->Ynr problems.

If it is right, and I say it is right, to giw' the Federnl Government the authority, which

Commonwealth (3 NOVEMBER.] Constitutional Convention. 891

is virtually an unlimited authority, to prose­cute the war, that same Government must have the necessary authority for the planning of the peace, for this is not less necessary than winning the war. We ardently claim that if we win the war and lose the peace, our sacrifices have been in vain. The settling of our men in useful occupations after the war is just as necessary as prose­cuting and winning the war. If we are honest in that belief, and I think we are, should we not give the central Government, which is the Federal Government, whatever power is necessary to do tha H In saying that, I am not saying for one moment that the Bill as we have it before us is a perfect charter, is the right thing for us to give to the Federal Parliament, but it is an excellent basis for the discussions at the convention the Federal Government have called.

There comes into the picture very pm·tin­ently the adoption of the Statute of West­minster. As I understand it, it has conferred a complete status of nationhood on Australia and the Dominions. If that is so, does not that alter our relationship as a State with the Mother Country~ In the past the Mother Country has been supreme over the Common­wealth Parliament, but under the Statute of vVestminster that is not so. The Common­·wcalth Parliament is the supreme authority. We now have an altered relationship between the States and the Federal Government, and we must put our house in order to give effect to that altered relationship. Previously, if we thought our Constitution was being abro­gated we could appeal to the Mother Parlia­ment or the Privy Council.

'ro-day Australia is responsible pnrely and ~imply for her mvn affairs, and I cont.end that there is therefore an altered relatwn­ship between the State and Federal Parlia­ments, and we as sensible men must make due provision for it. The present set-up does not give the Federal Parlianl"ent the con­trol over the States that the i\Iother Par­liament had previously. 'l'he Act that was in operation previous to the Statute of West­minster was an Act of t!Je :Mother Parlia­ment, and we, as sensible men, haYc to Terog­nise that fact.

We come now to the next step. I believe I have made out a good case for a reorienta­tion of the Telationship between the States and the Federal Parliament, but it is said by many hon. membeTs of this Assembly t~wt the time is far from opportune for puttmg any amendment befoTe the people. I say that is an entirely wrong contention. If theTe were going to be no afteT·the-war pro­blems, I should not hesitate to suggest that it be left until after the war, but what sort of revolution, what sort of chaos, \\-hat sort of anarchy are you going to have im·mediately the war is over when the powers vested in the Commonwealth Government under the National Security Act no longer exist? What sort ofl chaotic conditions aTe you going to have when all the~e men in the fighting forces, all the men engaged in war work, and all the men and women who have been thrown out of their ordinary occupations, are sitting round the doorsteps of the six States

seeking for employment, and the States, even though they have the will to employ them, have not the power to do so because they do not control the money~ What sort of unholy mess are you going to have with all these· hundreds of thousands of men sitting round waiting for a job~ That will be no time for crying that we are giving too much power to the Commonwealth Government because,­under such a set of conditions, there will be no Government at all; it will be plain anarchy, and every sensible man in this Assem· bly must give seTious consideration to that. fact.

3'Ir. Plnnkett: Do you suggest that these­powers should be given to the Commonwealth Government?

l\Ir. COLLINS: I suggest that the Com­monwealth Government Tequire greater powers than they have at present, and that as sensible men we should get together and set our minds to the wOl'k of evolvmg ways of protecting ceTtain spheTes in _whic~ ~he State must operate, at the same time g!Vmg the Commonwealth necessary power to pre· pare anrl plan for the post-war reconstru~­tion in order to give effect to the ~Ula~tic Charter for which this nation is fightmg JUSt as much as anv of the other Allied nations, As it is no\\, 'it has signed its name to. a. pact to 1vhich it has not thr power to give effect. Is it reasotw ble for the Commonwealth Government, who have their responsibilities, to sit down and do nothing about post-war' problems~ Is it reasonable that they should simply say that this is a matter for the State, when we know that while the State may plan to carrv out public works it does not contToJ the fin:mce of the country, and is therefore unable to give effect to any works programme~ These :ne all questions to which those gentle­men wilo oppose the present constitutional alterations must apply themselves seriously.

If the po1vcr for which the Commonwealth'_ Govemment are asking is wrong, wh~t po~ve~, is right~ What is the right . re~atwnsh1p t·,

It is easy to pull down, but It IS hard to build up, and l have not th_e slightest doubt that all these arguments agamst the propo~ed chano·e were used when the States WCI'C gomg into "'the question of federation and part-: nership with one centra~ _Government. Th6 States felt they were giVmg away a great deal but we found in actual practice that they' have not given away very much. .In fact, they have not given enough authonty to any one Parliament to carry out any plan for the development of this country. lf hon, members want more evidence they have only to look at the vast empty spaces in Queens­land, without going to any other State. 1 have heard the cry, "Look at the Northern Tenitory. What have the Federal Govern­ment done for the Northern Territorv? '' I admit that the Federal Government have done very little indeed for the Northern Territory, but what have we as a State done for that great territory in North Queensland, the Gulf country~ We have no more people per square mile' in that tremendous area. of the Gulf country than they have in the Northern Territory.

892 Commonwealth [ASSEMBLY.] Constitutional Convention.

So not only the Federal Government can ibe accused of not successfully developing the ~~ountry. We are not populating this country -to anything like the extent we should if we ihope to hold it for the white race, and unless we wake up and unless we debunk ourselves ;and do soma straight thinking it will not be we who will develop this country, but some black or yellow race, and no decent true Australian would ever desire to see such a iiire and dreadful thing happen to a country like this, where we have the finest ideals of :any country in the world. We have the set-up to preserve our country and it remains to be Been whether we have the progressive spirit .cwd the intelligence to develop the great .country we are heirs to or whether we shall allow it to be developed by other people. Therefore, are \VC willing to agree to these amendments of the Constitution now, or leave lt until the men of the fighting forces are forced back onto us~ Then it will not be a dictatorship of our own desire, but a military dictatorship that will be forced upon us, something that this country does not want to see. There is no particular reason why that should happen, but if we are to avert such .chaotic conditions, no\\· is the time and now is the time to act.

How is it that \Ye can find so much objec­tion to these proposals on this side of the House, in •·iew of the platform of the Labour Party, which goes further than the proposed amendments of the Commonwealth Govern­ment! The platform of our own party, which was amended at a Federal conference at Canberra in May, 1939, sets out that we, the Labour Party, desire to invest the Common­wealth Parliament with unlimited legislatiYe powers and authority to create or re-order -state or provinces with limited powers. I -should not willingly agree to the wiping out ,of the States and the setting up of glorified shire councils, because I realise that this Parliament has a tremendous sphere of use­fulnes" if it is used to its fullest advantage, but can anybody reading this platform, ,sig-ncrl by our own members of Parliament, get :<way from the fact that our mvn platform goes further than the Commonwealth pro­posals, which arc practically word for word with the platform~ The platform goes further and saYs that we shall abolish the Senate. I contend that the Senate was set up for a very good reason, to safeguard small States, heca'\j.se there was the fear that otherwise the small States would be at a disadvantage compared with the two big States of New Elouth \Vales and Virtoria. For that reason tl.le framers of the Constitution wisely pro­Vlded that all the States should ha re equal ~·epresentation in the Senate, irrespective of whether it was a small or big one. The framers of the Constitution stretched a democratic principle for the benefit of the small States, which then agreed to come into -the union.

Mr. Piunkett: Do you think the Senate has protected the small States~

Mr. COLLINS: The Senate does protect the small States, but I am not foolish enough ;to say that the Senate is not conducted along

party lines and that the representatives have not voted according to party ideas, which is rather a pity. However, would anyone say that the senators returned by Queensland, Western Australia, or South Australia were going to sell their respective States, because their party might suggest they should do so~ I do not believe that men who are capable of gaining enough votes of the people to get into the S'8nate would be guilty of such an unworthy and unstatesmanlike act. I want to say to hon. members on this side and some hon. members opposite who are so fearful of the pTOposals by the Commonwealth, that they clo not go as far as our own Labour Party platform does. Seeing that the Common­wealth proposals are really a modification of Labour's own platform, I ask in all sincerity that we on this side of the House and hon. mem­bers on the other side, too, should approach the whole matter with calm, collected reason­ing and consider the problems confronting the Commonwealth Government and the problems confronting the States in order to see whde safeguards are needed and where they are not.

When the Labour Party in Queensland abolished the Upper House was not the main theme of the vilification hurled against this party that we were doing away with. the only Rafeguard against hasty and umnse legis­lation?

Are the proposals su bmittecl in this pro­posed referendum any more revolutionary than the State's proposals at that time? I ask any member of the Opposition and any mem· ber of my own side: have the elected rep­resentatives of the people in this Parliament done anything- detrimental to this State because ,,-e wiped out the Upper House? I do not say we should wipe out the Federal Upper House, but I do say that the argu· ments which could he used against a proposal to do so were used ag-a.inst us when we pro­posed to abolish the Legislative Council, and experience has shown that we ha vc do:r:e nothing detrimental to the people of this State bv wiping out the Upper House and thus gh:ing us greater power. If the people were asked if they would recreate that House there would be an overwhelming majority against it.

l'Ir. Nimmo: You have no basis for say­ing that.

l'Ir. COLLINS: There is the fact that since the Upper House was wiped out, with the exception of three years, a I,abour Govern­ment have been in power. I haYe too much respect for the wisdom of our people . to believe that they would tolerate the recreabon of the Upper House for fi\'e minutes.

But we are asked to giYe unlimited power to the Federal Government, and I agree that that power should belong to the people. But the people do not giYe any Fe~eral Govern· ment unlimited power. They give them that power for three years, and if it is found that the Government misuse that power, they can be swept from office. If they do a wrong to the people, the people will do so. Is that

Commonwealth [3 NovEMBER.] Constitutional Convention. 893

not a sound, sensible, democratic way of look­ing at the position~ We on this side of the House believe in the power of recall, but because a member of our party gets up and maybe temporarily displeases a number of people, should he be hurled out of Parliament or forced to face another election? I do not agree that that is right. We agree that three years is a reasonable term, and we are not handing to the Federal Government unlimited pon·er, "·e are lending them unlimited power for three years.

We believe that if the States are disadvan­taged we imve power to go to a conference nnd recommend safeguards. I ask and plead 1Yith the reople of this country to be trusting in this referendum on the proposal it is pro· posed to place before them. I am not afraid ·of the po,·er of the people, but I am afraid of a section of hungry, hostile, workless people, 1Yhich is a position we may find our­oelves in if we do not take time by the fore­lock and plan for peace as we do for war, nnd the protection of our people in times of lJeace. If ''"e apply ourselves wisely to that undertaking, I maintain that we can succeed. vV0 can reorient the relations between State and Commomrealth, we can make a better Constitution, and bring about a better feel­ing between the State and J?ederal Govern­ments than we have. If there ever was a time, now is the time for this work to be done and clone urgently, when the fear is upon ns that we shall not be prepared when the peace comes. Chaotic conditions might be automatically set np if this war ends sud­denly and then the States, with six different Constitutions and six different Governments, ''"ould be asked to solve post-war problems, having no recourse with which to finance­except what might be granted by the Federal Government-and having no say as to how much money might be spent. That is not reasonable.

I ask this House to examine the proposal calmly, coolly, and dispassionately and then say, "\Ve have the opportunity of doing some­thing big, something worth while for this ,country, in an atmosphere of calm, clear, and collected reasoning.''

lUr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (8.56 p.m.): I approach this subject without any prejudice or bias, and apart altogether from the question whether we should or should not have State Parliaments; 12 hon. members have preceded me, and my task is to try to speak Dn this subject without trespassing on matters they ha.-e dwelt on. There is a job for me!

Queensland began its parliamentary system under letters patent from the British Govern­ment in 1859 and continued it under the Queensland Constitution of 1867. The Federal Convention was suggested by the late Sir Henry Parkes, a great Australian !states­man who died without any money-and that proves my statement pretty well. The follow­ing representatives attended a convention to formulate a Federal Constitution :-Sir Henry Parkes, Sir C. C. Kingston, Sir Edmuncl Barton, Eon. J. M. Macrossan (ex-Premier

of Queensland), Sir Thomas Mci!wraith (ex-Premier of Queensland), Hon. A. J. Thynne, Dr. John Cockburn (South Aus· tralia), Sir Samuel Griffith, Sir Geo. Dibbs, Mr. Alfred Deakin, Sir John Bmy (Chief Secretary, South Australia), Sir John Forrest.

Sir Henry Parkes was appointed President because he was the author of the movement and the convention met in Sydney on 2 March, 1891. The committee then met on the "Lucinda," a Queensland boat, on the Hawkesbury River to revise the final plan.

The question was debated by many bodies during the intervening years and a poll was taken in 1899 resulting as follows:-

Yes No Majority for "Yes"

377,988 141,386 236,602

With your permission, MT. Speaker, to show I have confidence in Australia-my native land-I shall read a few extracts from a special article I wrote for a weekly journal and which was published three years ago. It is as follows:-

''If I was appointed to guide the destinies of Australia I would say-

'' Realising that many mi~lions of squ~re miles of Australian terntory compnse desert countl·y, I would appoint a; small committee of experts, not all tJ:e?~r~ts, to thoroughly investigate. the possrbrhtres of bringing about some kmd of settlement in what we term 'the arid wastes.'

' 'Within reason, I do not acknowledge the word 'impossible.'

''Many projects are cl~ss~d as imp~ssible only for the want of th:nkmg capacrty to owrcome difficulties, whrch are placed in our path to try us out.

''I think very little of any leader who does not feel lonely if a working day pas_ses without some difficulty coming before hrm.

' '\Vhen I speak of the 'arid wastes,' remember I do not refer to the Northern Territory; I mean the_ deser_ts. Settle:r:ne~t of the Northern Terntory rs mere chrlcl s play alongside the other problem.

''Advisory Board.

''Besides leading scientists, members would be drawn from all parts of the world. The board would contain men such as our Dr Bradfield practical station pioneers of fa; outback Western Australia, as well as prominent men from India, Africa, and Egypt.

''The big problem, of course, would be water but I believe all these difficulties can be overcome at least so far as to populate a consicl~rable portion of what is known as the Australian desert. It may be found advisable to co-operate with some other friendly country in the matter of people.

"I would not hesitate to pay for b;ains when selecting the members of the advrsory board.''

894 Commonwealth [ASSEMBLY.] Constitutional Convention.

Another small extract is as follows:-

"I would aim at 14,000,000 inhabitants by 1960. This would be accomplished by increased natural birth rate and immigra· tion. ''

I have previously urged that we should have a War Advisory Council that would con­tain not only an equal number from each side of the House, but also the Premiers and the Leaders of the Opposition of the States who should be included at every third meeting at least.

Dr. Evatt 's Bill, which I have with me, is a subterfuge, a wolf in sheep's clothing. The powers asked for in sub-clause ( 3) are positively dangerous. Permit me to quote, Mr. Speaker, Sir John Latham, the pres~nt Chief Justice of the High Court. Speakmg on 17 July, 1931, on the Statute of Wes~­minster, and referring to clause 3, which 1s now accepted bv the Commonwealth, he said that it would not apply to the StateA, which are entitled to preserve such relations as they like with the British Parliament and the rest of the Empire. I refer particularly to the proposed section 60A, sub-section ( 3), Part VI., Chapter 1-

,' All the powers conferred upon the Par­liament by this section may be exercised notwithstanding anything contained else­where in the Constitution.''

That is enough for me. To my way of think­ing that kills it right away. If the desire is to get rid of State Parliaments, there is an honest way to go about it, and that is to ask the people by way of a referendum if they are in favom of State Parliaments, and to answer "Yes" or "No." I have an open mind upon that question, but this is not the tinYe to do that. It should be delayed until onr war troubles are dissolved. I do not care if the people should decide to abolish State Parliaments. My concern is to do the right thing by the people, but I say emphatically that this is not the right time to bring any referendum before the people. J<'or this statement I will give my reasons.

. In the history of any country there are hmes when a Government may be pushed into office, so to speak, on the issue of some burn­ing question that is really a side issue. It may be merely one out of 40 clauses of a policy, but in the excitement of the moment the people may elect a particular Government by a narrow majority. See the harm that can be done. Mr. Speaker. It is certainly not safe to hand over these powers to the Govern­ment. The Government, irrespectiYe of its label, could do anything, and there would be n?. appeal to the High Court by either a e1bzen or any authority in Australia to con­test the validity of an Act of Parliament.

The following is an extract from the findings of the Royal Commission on the Con­stitution of 1929-

,' Australia is one of the largest con­tinuous areas in the world under a single government; it includes many varieties of climate and soil, its population is unevenly distributed, and in four out of the six

States more than 45 per cent. of the population reside within the capital city or its suburbs. Large areas are very thinly populated, and of some it may safely be predicted that for a long period they will not be occupied by more than a very few people. The development of rural com­munications is still incomplete, and the legislation which has been enacted for the control of industrial conditions is still in an experimental stage.

"We think that the existence of these conditions furnishes a strong reason for the conclusion that the Federal svstem of government is the system br,,t suited to the needs of the Australian people at the present time. A central authOTity is neces­sary for the discharge of those functions ou which Australia should speak and act as a whole, e.g., defence and relations vdth other countries, and is desirable for the exercise of powers of legislation and administration \Yith respect to matters, e.g., weights and measures and coinage, in \vhich uniformity is convenient. But in our opinion the existence of self-governing units within the Rrea of the Commonwealth is also necessary. The advanta ·:re of an independent right of self-goverm~ent may not be so obvious to the residents of those States which are in close touch with the central authority, but it is of funda­mE'ntal importance to States which are situated at a distance from the seat of government, and which by reason of the sparseness of their popnlations haYe a Telatively small representation in the Com­monwealth Parliament. Where there are ~drqnate powers of self-governm:ent, there 1s scope for public spirit, local patriotism, and local knowledge, which would he lost if all legislath'e and administrati•·e fune­tions in Australia were absorbed in the central government. Again, the existence of the self-governing States does we b:l~eve, provide the best means of duper­vismg development and the best safe­guar~ against a disastrous experiment. !he 1m;portance of ronfining economic and mdustr~al experiments to limited areas \Yas em~has1sed by several witnesses. It is ob~wusly greater in Australia than in the u,_nted States, where the Constitution con­tams prohibitions which restrain both CoJ_Jgre~s and State legislatures ftom legis­latmg m certain directions.''

That is one important finding of the report of the royal commission which went into this matter very carefully.

Some people say '' 'rhe House of Commons has approximately 600 members,'' but I remind hon. members that this country is 25 times the size of the area represented by those members in the British House of Commons.

Mr. lUassey: Look at the difference in the population.

Mr. YEATES: But I am arguing now about the sparsely populated spaces and long distances, varying climates and conditions, and I urge the people not to rush into a

Commonwealth [3 NOVEMBER.] Constitutional Convention, 895

system of managing it through one central gm·ernment, but to take matters slowly. I submit that the Federal Parliament has enough power under the present Constitution to do this ,job, and Dr. E\·att 's proposals are too vague altogether.

llir . .:IIassey: A !:>lank cheque.

llir. YEATES: A blank cheque is the term nset1 by other speakers, and I think I am to be excused for repeating those words. I have been in business for 45 years, and I ask you J\Ir. Speaker: would I sign a blank chequ~ nnd then allow any Tom, Dick, or Harry to fill it in~ ·would any hon. member of this House do that~ I venture the opinion that not one of them would, whether he be business 11UU1 Ol' not.

I submit that ample po"·er exists alreadv u_nder the National Security Act and reguhi'­twns, and the operations of this Act could be extended for 18 months after the war or for so long a_s ':·as necessary to gi,·e employment or repatnntwn to all members of the fighting forces. In the_ meantime, post-war problems (·an be dC'alt w1th by round-table conferences between leaders of the Federal and State Go.-ernments. T?ey can get together at the proper tune, wh1ch is after the enemy has been put out of this country. I have ,expressed my opinion on the seriousness of the wnr position before, and I repeat that it 1s more than serious, it is positively ·dangcrot:s. I. have emphasised that strongly c:10ugh m th1s 9hamber on previous occa­swns when speakmg about the re-employment :md repatnat10n of those men ·who are now m the R.A.A.F., the navy the A.I.F. and the militia, also tile women' who are attached thereto.

When tLat is done,. if we find it is still neeessar)· to amend or alter the Constitution let us t~lk about the abolition of Stat~ Parliaments and such things as that. Let us talk about these things when the burglar has _been lncked out of the house. Would any ho1~. m~mber dabble with irrelevant things wlule Ins house was on fire or there was a burglar in it~ Let us get rid of the burglar first, IYh~ther th~ burglar is Hitler or Tojo or J\1ussohm. ~t w1ll be a mighty big job, and :11ake ;w mistake, I am not under-estimating 1t. ~e. a~e not fighting just for democracy -that 1s .Just an old saying-we are fighting to the death, nothing less than that.

I am not going to say anything harmful about Dr. Evatt personally, but there are some people in the Parliaments of Australia whom I do not trust, and in such cases it is 1wll to be on the alert. Dr. Evatt is starting «:mt on a trail that is littered with the political 1vreckage of past Administrations in Aus· tralia. If ! ohn Curt in, the Prime Minister, allows a referendum to be taken now in the wry depths of war, I know what is going to happen. It will fall fiat, and the quicker the better. I object .-ery strongly to a referen­du~l. at this time and for very sound reasons, wlnc11 I shall quote. I wrote them two years ago on another matter, but I do not want to be misunderstood now or any other time. I

object most strongly to the taking of a referendum at this stage for the following reasons:-

" (1) A large number of soldiers are o.-erseas and the thousands of prisoners of war will be debarred from 1·oting.

' ' ( 2) It would cause distraction in the public mind and strongly tend to divide the people when 100 per cent. of unitv is imperatiYe to win the war.'' •

It is very 1vrong to split the public on such a controYersial question at a time when the enemy is virtually breaking in at our front door. I regard the war position as being serious, indeed, as positively dangerous. I go further and say that a Federal election should not be held next year. I urge the Prime Minister, Mr. Curtin, to request the British GoYernment to pass the necessary enabling Bill to extend the term of the Australian Parliament for at least another year. Now that the Australian Parliament has adopted the Statute of W e~tminster, we may have the power to do that without a request to Great Britain. Let us follow Great Britain's example and immediately form an all-party national Government, the birth of which should synchronise with the launching of the £100,000,000 austerity loan. If it cannot be done to-morrow, then do it next week. These things can be done. In the forming of such a Government the members of the House of Representatives and the Senate should con· jointly elect the leader. These may appear to he little details, but I want to be careful that I am not misunderstood. They could then proceed on the basis of pooling the best brains to elect members to the Cabinet bY exhaustive ballot, taking each altemativel~· from the present Government and the Opposition sides of both Houses.

I acknowledge that the Senate is no"· a party House. Everybody knows that; even the school children know it. It is a party House, and I am sony that it is. I agreed with the hon. member for Cook when he said so. I know that the Prime Minister has a big job ahead of him and I sympathise ll'ith him, but sympathy and sentiment are not going to do these things. If a man is not strong enough he must go out. Mr. Curtin is an honest man, but he is on trial now. His answer to my suggestions will test his strength of character and his worth to the nation. I have talked with him on this sub· ject, but I am not going to give the con· versation.

No man, irrespective of the party to which he may belong, should not in any circum· stances allow the war effort to lag one point under 100 per cent. I care not who he may be, whether it is Curtin, Menzies, Fadden, or any· one else. The strongest leadership is impera­tive and the aim to make the war effort corn· plete should be removed altogether from party politics. Let us remember that it is no use locking the stable door after the horse has disappeared. We have been living in rt fool's paradise, and it is necessary that we should take the strongest measmes first to win the war and then to talk about matters

896 Commonwealth [ASSEMBLY.] Constitutional Convention.

of a purely do;nestic character. I do not care whom we may offend, whether it be party or leader. That is a meTe nothing. We must get the strongest man to lead us. If he is hiding his light under a bushel, so to speak, either in or out of the Federal House, it is time he was discovered. It is quite competent to include in the Ministry for a time at any rate one who is not a member of Parliament. The men and women in the fighting forces are trusting om political leaders. I have a personal interest in the war, as wBll as a great national interest, The mothers and fathers of the fighting forces haYe an anxious time just now. They are trusting their political leaders whilB their sons are fighting in the malaria swamps of New Guinea or in the ::\fiddle East or in the sands of Libya. We must not let them down. No Government can afford to do so, upon pain of being adjudged guilty of a dereliction of duty, no matter who they may bB.

I hate this idea of some members of the Federal House-I see it sticking out a mile, so to speak-of endeavouring to u~e the war to do certain things and obtain power. That must not be done. I quote the Minister for Labour and National Service in that matter, and I care not who disagrees with me. He has been repudiating his own Ministry. That is a matter for himself. I would remind hon. members that Mr. Lang has an idea of enter­ing Federal politics. If he does so, what shall we have then? We shall probably have a mixture of Communism and Fascism-Evatt, Lang, ·ward, and Co., Unlimited. That is possibly ·what it has come down to. ::\Ir. Cm·tin 's name will go down in historv as a great statesman if he will work alo~g the lines I have indicated. He should sav to his party as he addresses them in the par't:v room that he is going to walk straight out into an all-in national Government and will have no partyisms whatsoever until after the war, and at the same time ask his Deputv Mr. Forde to do the same. Th'"n he shoi1ld ask thos~ assembled in the party room who believe in him to follow him out. I guarantee if he did so, he would be able to form this kind of Government. The time to do so is now, in this period of national crisiR. Mr. Curtin ~houlcl take a stand. When I spoke to both Mr. Curtin and Mr. Forde in June, 1941, on this question I came away feeling satisfied that at least one of them, the Leader of the Government, Mr. Curtin, thought in his inner­most heart it was the proper thing to do, but. he was not game to clo it and risk a party spht. I say that there is no time like this, when we are right up against it-when we can metaphorically speaking, hear the front doo~ crpaking and footsteps reverbemting with the near approach of our enemies. \Ve are depen­dent to a very great extent on our political leaders to lead Australia out of this tenible war and at its conclusion to go on and triumphantly bring in measures to repatriate the members of our returning fighting forces.

Do away with this proposal from Dr. Evatt -it is far too vague. Discard it, altogether. When this goes to thB convention I want to see it shorn of its vagueness or, better still,

scrapped altogether. If this Bill of Dr. Evatt 's is not torn to smithereens or scrapped altogether, I will seriously consider enlist­ing the services and sympathy of the War Service League of Australia, whose head office is in Adelaide, and stumping the whole of Australia, Melbourne, Sydney, and every­where else. I can organise-r say that with­out any desire to bmg-and I shall be game to go round Australia and defeat this pro· posal with the help of many other people. W c will certainly defpat it. Moreover, if an election is pushed onto us next year whilP this country is right at death's door, so to speak, then I will give serious consideration to contesting a Federal seat-possibly my old love, ::\faranoa. If this Bill is persisted in I say it will be an awful risk for thi~ country, and I am not going to be a party to breaking down that great temple of archi­tecture-the Australian Constitution that ''"a'· built up by the men that I nameJ.

)£r. COPLEY (Kurilpa) (9.30 p.m.) : In the dying hams of this debate I do not desin' to detain the House at any great length, but I should like to express my views as a mem­ber of the legal professio11, and I hope the House will bear with me in some of the observations I am going to make. First, 1 am not going to buy into any issue introduced by the hon. member for Enoggera. I am noi going to go back to the days of Xero or anvonc elsr-not even to the da"s of the i\Icdcs and the Persians. I think we in this Parliament must not under-estimate the learned High Court judge who has stepped down from that eminent position to take a political office. We must not under-estimate• him in any way, because I feel cert~in he has now by the issue and bv the means he is adopting and the propaga~1da l!,, is using indting every opposition possible to tht' >iCheme so that he will have the Op[Jortunity of replying to it in his own \Y~.~'-

In the fhst place, I think ever;·hody realise~ basically that the sovereignty is in the electors, although legally the sovereignty of Parliament is the dominant char:Jcteristic of our political institutions. I do not know whether hon. members will bear v;ith me or not-I hope they will-but I think they will realise that federalism is the natural evolution of a body of States that desire union, but do not desire unity. The countries that accepted this form rather than the English form of Constitution include the English Federated Colonies, United States of America, the Swiss Confederation, and the German Empire. In every case there must be, or usually is, in federalism approximate equality of \Yealth, population, and historical bonds. Apart from geographical situation, which I think every hon. member realises is necessan. the basic principle of federalism is that each partner must have equal political rights and should maintain at least limited independence. That equality must be complete and that inde­pendence must be complete within its own sphere.

Dr. Evatt, the man who is proposing these schemes, is a member of the Australian Labour Party. He has been so for some time.

O()mmonwealth [3 NovEMBER.] Oonstitutio'IULl Convention. 897

I remember him when he represented Balmain in 1923. He was one of the intellectuals of the Labour Party and I know he must realise what he is doing to-day. I want hon. members to realise also that federalism leads to nationalism. I have no desire to ''knock'' Dr. Evatt or any member of my party, but I ask hon. members of this House: do they realise what happened when the German Empire came under one head~ What was the first thing done by Adolf Hitler when he got supreme control~ Was it not to abolish State Parliaments~ I will let hon. members examine it for themselves.

The Secretary for Public Lands: Trade unions.

Mr. COPLEY: I will not specially men­tion any section of the people. The people were robbed of their rights tho moment federalism became nationalism. The moment Adolf Hitler took over federalism or federa­tion in Germany he wiped out all the rights of individuals, State Parliaments, and eVf'ry­thing else; and I hate to say that a member of the AustraEan Labour Party would try to get powers to do the same thing.

l\Ir. l\Iaher: You do not suggest he is an incipient Hitler~

.ilir. COPLEY: I am not going to say anything on that point. I leave it to hon. members to draw their own eonclusions, but I, as a member of the Labour Party, while I have a voice, will not allow En1tt or any other individual to take away the rights that I regard as inherent in me, the individual right that I have to develop. When I speak of the right of the people I am talking of their individual rights, and I am only one of the people.

I speak in a general way. How many people in the British community hoard the word ''referendum'' 50 years ago~ How many members in this House to-night know the real meaning of the word ''referendum''~ The word is Swiss and it means really the principle under which Bills passed by both Houses in Switzerland must receive the sanc­tion and approval of the people voting on each matter. To-day we are following the Bunde­stadt because that system of administration has received some approval by the demo­cratic nations. A referendum is commonly recognised to-day as a people's veto, or, in other words, the right of veto in the people ..

Another essential feature of federalism is that there must be distribution of powers. A further feature is legalism. I have heard hon. members and also people from other parts of the world remm·king how wonderful it was that even an Act of Parliament could be questioned by the laws of the land. For instance, the uniform taxation laws. The Queensland Labour Party decided that that was wrong and what greater thing <>ould be concAived ~' The people, instead of revolting as thPv did in Canada in the days of the grandfather of their present Prime Minister, who led a revolt against the powers that be, accept the decision of the High Court judges, just as would be done in America or in other

1942-2 F

places where theTe is a federation. People other than English-speaking nations cannot understand that federalism means legalism.

Hon. members will bear with me while I read a statement made by Garran, one of the fathers of federation, who was appointed by the Federal Government in 1932 to pTeside over a committee to examine the Western Australian case for secession. In answer to Dr. Summerville, one of the legal advocates for the case of ·western Australia for seces­sion-for getting away from this federation that to-day we are trying to hold together, he said-

'' The suggestion (in paragraph _136 _of the Case for Secession) that the FmanCial Emergency (State Legislation) Act, 1932 indicates a probable extension of the Com­monwealth's taxing powers to cover control of State taxation is quite groundless. It is true that, after the fashion of legal plead­ing, the title of the Act calls in aid every­thing that could be thought of, on the spur of the moment, as a possible support -Taxation, Insurance, Banking, Corpora­tion &c. -The draftsman was evidently scratching round for a peg on w11ich to hang the Bill; but taxation was certainly a forlorn hope.''

This is the point-'' The poweT of the Commonwealth Par­

liament as to taxation is a power to make laws 'for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth' with respect to 'taxation, but so as not to discriminate between States or parts of States.' It can hardly be questioned that these words refer only to Commonwealth taxation, uniform throughout the Com­monwealth, for Commonwealth purpo_ses, and do not cover control of State Tnxatwn. Nothing in any decision of the High Court suggests a doubt of this; and indeed the principles of interpretation laid dO\Yil hy the Court make doubt impossible.''

That man wrote a book, which is in Parlia­ment House now and when laying down the principles of th~ Constitution, at page 590, when dealing with conventions as ~ar back as J 891, he referred to a speech by S1r Henry Parkes, who said-

'' I therefore lay down certain conditions which seem to me imperative as _a ground-. work of anything we have to do, and I prefer stating that these :first four resolu­tions simply lay down what app~a! to me the four most important conditiOns on \vhich we must proceed. First: 'That the powers and privileges and territorial righ!< of the several existing colonies shall remam intact, except in respect of such surrenders as may be agreed upon as necessary and incidental to the power and authonty . of the National Federal Government.' I thmk it is in the highest degree desirable that \V€ should satisfy the mind of each of the colonies that we have no intention to cripple their powers, to invade their rights, to diminish their authority, except so far as it is absolutely necessary in view of the great end to be accomplished, which in

898 Commonwealth [ASSEMBLY.] Constitutional Convention.

point of the fact, will not be material as diminishing the powers and privileges and rights of the existing colonies.''

That same man, who was a founder of federation, gives date, chapter, and verse for everything that happened, and in 1932 he was appointed on the secession issue in Western Australia. In 1932 he said that the Federal Government shall have no power to deal with States' right of taxation. We, here, as loyal citizens, accepted the Federal jurisdiction of the High Court, although a different court might have decided we were right.

All bc"1. members have a copy of the Bill proposed by Dr. Evatt, and I wish now to analyse parts of it. The clause that sets out the prcJ,osed section 60A of the Constitution, says th 't the Commonwealth shall have power to mccke laws for the attainment of economic secmity and social justice in the post-war >Yorld and for the purpose of post-war recon­structic n generally. As some advocates and lawyers do, he pretends not to restrict that power when he says-

'' \7ithmt limiting the generality of the for.going subsection, it is hereby declared that the power of the Parliament shall extend to all measures .... '

TheL ;,c is pretending to ('OYer it up and to limit +he aB-embracing provisions of the first s• etion. He pretends to limit it, but inste2 d he extends lt.

lUr. Conins: He goes further than that.

3Ir. COPLEY: I wanted to deal with genernl proYisions to-night. I did not want to dr:1l with some of the matters raised by the hon, member, bnt I shall deal with them if need b". C1ause 3, we find, provides-

'' All the powers conferred upon the Parliame;1t hy this section may be exercised nohvithstanding anything contained else­wh2re in this Constitution or in the Con­stitution of any State and shall bP exer­eisable as on and from a date to he pro­claimed by the Gcvernor-General in CouDcil. '

Kow, if lwn. members will look at clause 2 (h) v!e find reference to-

'' Fr2eoom of speech and expression.

'' Religions freedom.

''Freedom from want.

''Freedom from fear.''

I am 11ot going to deal with freedom from fear. "Who is the person here to-night who is afraid~ What fear have we except that our homes will be destroyed and our women­folk violated by the slant-eyed JapW That is the only fear we have. Dr. Evatt took his four freedoms from the Atlantic Charter, but that charter is not for the Australian people, it is not for you or for me. We are fighting to give those freedoms to the people in Europe. Dr. Evatt knows as well as I do that section 116 of the Constitution, passed in 1901, gives the right of freedom of religions

worship to every person in the Commonwealth. Why did he try to mislead the people of Australia by putting this kind of thing in the Bill W I wonder whether the man is sincere when he does that.

JUr. Pie: No, just lust for power.

llir. COPLEY: Then he talks about the encouragement of immigration, but he must know very well that it was laid down in Chung Feong Foy v. Musgrave in 1891 that the immigration restriction laws covered those things very well. Some people talk about the hoary-headed old judges of the High Comt not having the right to deprive them of this principle of legalism. When Jolmson and Walsh and others were to be extradited from this country, what was the instrument that stopped them from being wrongly thrown out of this country? Was it not the High Court~ (Hear, hear!) "Gnder these proposals if I wanted to make a state­ment and a law was passed to say that I should not and that it is to achieve economic security and social justice, I could not make it. If a law is passed to say that every member of this Parliament and every person in Queensland shall be extradited, what right of appeal have weW While the Constitution stands the High Court stands. Do you not think that clause 3 of the Bill is one of the areatest travesties of justice we could possibly have~ (Hear, hear!) Suppose ~~at Dr, Evatt and the Commonwealth authontle' decided that in order to achieve economic security and social justice State Parliaments must go, and there should not be a Federal election. What right of reply have any of us? And what right have \VC to exercise a \·ote ~ "\Yhere is our right and where are om· principles of freedom, and where i~ everything we hold dear~ If I am wrongly mcarcerated and Dr, Evatt decides that there shall be no Habeas Corpus Act in Australia, shall I have the right to ask a judge if I eannot be freed W Must I be thrown into gaol and kept there for years because no indictment is laid against me and because someone sa~'S that for economic reasons or something elsP I must stav there W What if I am impeached because oi the speech I am making to-night to appear at the Bar of the Federal House and no Act of indemnity is passed~ When' do I stand? What is my position if there is no right of appeal to the High Court~ Gentlenl'en, just think, where is Magna C'harta and >vhere is the common law if we have no right of appeal to the High Court of A_ns­tralia. I want to nsk hon. members to tlnnk what this thing really means.

Let me go further. There are 28 Federa 1 members from New South Wales in the Federal Parliament to-day, 10 from Queens­land and five from "\Vestem Australia. Sup­posi{lg the Commonwealth authorities decide under section 25 of the Constitution that for economic security and social justice Victoria and Ne>v South Wales shall have 100 members each, where is Queensland, where is South Australia, >vhere is Western Australia, and where is Tasmania~ Away back in 190~ Alfred De akin wrote a Tetter to the ''London Morning Post.'' In it he said the power of the purse was the power of gowrnment.

Commonwealth [3 NovEMBER.] Constitutwnal Convention. 899

Ever since section 87 of the Constitution was passed-the section that Sir Edward Braddon was responsible for and was called by Western Australia and other States the Braddon Blot, the blot on the Constitu­tion--

A Government l\Iember: The Braddon elause.

:\Ir. COPLEY: No, it was worse than that, it is known as the Braddon blot. 'rhat was the section that gave the Federal Government the right, first of all, to bite into the powers possessed by the States. It provided that "ithin 10 years certain things sl1ould be done. In 1909 certain arrangements were made between the Commonwealth and States. Had I the time at my disposal I would discuss the financial proposals under it. ~While I speak as a lawyer, I am not complaining about Dr. Evatt as a lawyer nor as a Labour politieian. He is one of the ablest brains Australia has ever seen. The J ames case c·ame before him. Y on all know that case, particularly my friends on the right who represent farming constituencies and know something a bout interstate trade. You all know, too, the decision of Dr. Evatt in that matter. The Privy Council went out of its way in that case to congratulate Dr. Evatt on his statement on State rights. In it he said that although he entered a decision against the States, he was bound by the ::\IcArthur case. The McArthur case was the case brought against the Queensland Government, :md is to be found in 28 C.L.R., page 530. The judgment of the Privy Council in the James case is reported in 56 C.L.R., page 1, and at page 50 it said this-it is one of the few cases in which the Privy Council has rver paid a tl'ibute to a judge of a Dominion c·ourt-

''The elaborate judgment of Entt J. in this case is of great importance.''

If any person can get a greater statement of the law as far as State rights are concerned, then I will be pleased to see it. He went further in the case of Anthony Hordern anc1 Sons, Limited, v. Amalgamated Clothing and Allied Clothing Trades Union of Australia, reported in 47 C.L.R., page 1, and with Mr. Justice Starke dissented from the decision of the High Court on State arbitra­tion Tights. If any hon. member cares to take this reference and read Dr. Evatt 's judgment in that case as well as that in the case of the King v. Vizzard ex parte Hill, .'10 C.L.R., he will find the best definition I can find of State rights. Dr. Evatt cer­tainly forgot his definition of State rights given in that case when he came along with these referendum proposals. That is by the way. If the Standing Orders permitted and hon. members cared to listen to me. I could continue for quite a considerable ·time on that point.

Hon. members should very closely examine sections 106 and 107 of the Constitution. There are also certain clauses in the pro­posed Bill that they need to analyse very carefully. They want to do so quietly and thoughtfully. It would ill-become me as a

member of the legal profession to come out very definitely and make blackguardly attacks on a member of the legal profession without very carefully analysing the position. In the few brief remaining moments at my disposal let me ask hon. members to look, for instance, at the Constitution Alteration (State Debts) Act of 1909.

Dealing with the proposals made on section 87, I do not know whether hon. members remember that William Morris Hughes first introduced the Federal income tax in 1917 and it was said to be only for the purposes of the war and was not to be con­tinued. If hon. members care to have a look at the Federal Taxation Commissioner's report of last year they will see that he stated that the day was not far distant when the Federal Government would be taking 20s. in the £1. I invite hon. members to look at it for themselves. He said the posi­tion could not go on. If Deakin was right in 1902, where do we stand to-day: You know what happened regarding the per-capita payments under the Financial Agreement and the Constitution Alteration (States Debts) Act of 1928. How much money has been paid back~ How much money have we received q Under the Constitution to-day there is no question that South Australia, Tasmania, and Western Australia received special grants. Even before the 1926 Act was passed, Tas­mania got additional payments- under the Tasmanian Grants Act of 1924. Western Australia was allowed five years to take all its Customs dealt with under section 87 of the Constitution. If you look at the Common­wealth Constitution there is one special pro­vision that you must not forget. The Act says that the Federal Government shall not discriminate between one State and another in taxation. That is under section 51 subsection (1). They have reduced the taxation rate of New South Wales, increased it in Victoria, and they have given New South Wales approximately £16,000,000, ancl they have given Victoria only £6,000,000 and increa~ed their rate of taxation.

Before I quote another case, I think it will be wise for me to show that under the Constitution there are really four sets of powers. The Commonwealth has exclusive powers and these are only some of them:---;­seat of government and acquisition of tern­tory, section 52 (i.) and 122; public service transferred section 52; Customs, section 90; military fo~·ces, section 114; coinage, section 115; and legal tender, section 115. As to concurrent powers 39 matters are mentioned in section 51, and 13 of these have been increased. Then there are certain residuary po,\·ers. We are dealing with some in our Estimates at the present time. Then, restricted powers cover rivers, railways, and taxation. I can give any hon. memb.er who wants any further information particulars of the sections.

I am going to urge as a member of the legal profession, for the main reasons I set out earlier in my speech-and I do not think I could say a harder thing to a member of my party than likening him to the world's greatest enemy, Adolf Hitler--

'900 Questions. [ASSEl\IBLY.]

JUr. Maher: You are overstating it.

Mr. COPLEY: I say that only from this point of view, as far as personal rights are concerned.

Jir. Maher: You are overstating it.

~Lr. COPLEY: If you read the book by Adolf Hitler--

JUr. 3Ial!er: I do not think there is any parallel.

JUr. COPLEY: I will take this point of ,·iew to the hon. member. 'rhe words ''economic security and social justice'' are in every second line in the book. I do not think the hon. member for West Moreton knows that these words were :first used bv Hitler in a speech he made at Nuremberg i'U 1923. In this speech he also said, "Forget the Y for Yictory; use the F for :fight.'' The next occasion, the second of his reported speeches. in which he used the phrase, ''economic secmity and social justice'' was at a meeting of bankers in Berlin. There is an attempt to follow some Fascist suggestion in these things, nnd we must not allow the Federal Govern­ment OT anyone else, because a Bill is con­sidered to be for economic security and social iustice, to put that above everything and to ileny to us the rights we were born to, and for which we are :fighting as outlined in the Atlantic Charter.

Debate. on motion of Mr. Brassington, mljourned.

'!'he House adjourned at 10.5 p.m.

Questions.