Johnson, Daniel | Testimony transcript

Transcript of the Testimony of Daniel Johnson

Date: November 14, 2013Volume: I

Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: November 27, 2013

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078

Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]

Internet:

Daniel Johnson In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

417-358-4078

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.

Page 1

IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

DANIEL JOHNSON

Taken on Thursday, November 14, 2013, from 4:48 p.m. to 5:30

p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626

S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of

Missouri, before

SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,

a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and

for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.


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APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE

Loraine & Associates, LLC

4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300

Osage Beach, MO 65065

[email protected]


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S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn

Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by

SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and

afterwards reduced into typewriting.

It is further stipulated that the signature of the

witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of

said witness shall be of the same force and effect as

though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.


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I N D E X

Page/Line

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4

E X H I B I T S

Exhibit #A. . . . . . . . 6-14

Advice of Rights

Note: Exhibits in separate binder

(sic) - typed as spoken

(ph.) - phonetic


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1 DANIEL JOHNSON

2 Having been first duly sworn and examined,

3 testified as follows:

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:

5 Q. Sir, do you understand what this Advice of

6 Rights form is? Have you read it?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Basically I'm going to read it to you so you

9 can listen to it again. You are an employee

10 of the City and by law I've been commissioned

11 to ask you questions and you have to tell me

12 the truth. That's where we're at. "I wish

13 to advise you that you are being questioned

14 as part of an official investigation by the

15 City of Joplin. You will be asked questions

16 related and specifically directed to the

17 performance of your official duties of

18 fitness for office. You are entitled to all

19 the rights and privileges guaranteed by the

20 laws of the Constitution of the State and the

21 Constitution of the United States, including

22 the right not to be compelled to incriminate

23 yourself. I further with to advise you that

24 if you refuse to testify or to answer

25 questions relating to the performance of your


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1 official duties, you will be subject to

2 department charges, which could result in

3 your dismissal from your official duties. If

4 you do answer, these statements may be used

5 against you in relation to subsequent

6 departmental charges, but not in any

7 subsequent criminal proceedings." Basically

8 you have criminal immunity, but you have to

9 answer me and answer me truthfully. Do you

10 understand?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. All right. And you have printed your name,

13 Daniel Johnson, and you have executed Daniel

14 Johnson on Exhibit #A. Is that true, sir?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Mr. Johnson, can you tell me how long you've

17 worked for the City?

18 A. I started in May of 2005.

19 Q. And what is your position with the City?

20 A. I'm a Civil Engineer II.

21 Q. What department do you work?

22 A. Public Works Department.

23 Q. I assume you have Civil Engineer II. Are you

24 head of that department?

25 A. No, sir.


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1 Q. Have you ever been?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. And you're a graduate from an accredited

4 college and you have an Engineering Degree?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Do you have actually a P.E. stamp or

7 anything?

8 A. I have a stamp and I have a license.

9 Q. So you passed the exams necessary for

10 professional certification?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Sir, I've been directed to ask you questions

13 about your official duties. It's my

14 understanding that there was a matter

15 involving the creation of a sewer line that

16 you came up with to save the City substantial

17 money in front of a fire engine building, a

18 new fire engine building. Do you know what

19 I'm talking about?

20 A. I believe I do.

21 Q. Then explain the building. And there was a

22 question about whether or not a new piece

23 should be procured or whether or not an

24 engineering design would be sufficient on the

25 existing system. Is that a correct


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1 characterization of this problem?

2 A. That would be correct.

3 Q. And it's my understanding that you performed

4 your engineering responsibilities and came up

5 with a cheaper way to solve the problem?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. And the cheaper way would have been within

8 the standards of your engineering profession

9 or else you wouldn't have suggested it?

10 A. Yes, the meeting that I suggested the method

11 that I recommended as the engineer in charge

12 of the storm water systems the theme of that

13 meeting was we really don't have enough money

14 to build this fire station at this site, so

15 they looked at me and they said, we have to

16 follow Jack Schaller, the Assistant Director

17 at the time stated, well, Dan, what do we

18 have to do per our standards at this site to

19 take care of storm water? And what he meant

20 by that to me is if it was a developer

21 building a commercial building there they had

22 to follow certain standards and we would be

23 following the same standards.

24 Q. As the City?

25 A. As the City.


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1 Q. Why not?

2 A. We have to.

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. And he said what do we need to do here?

5 Well, I said it's good news. We have an

6 existing open ditch that runs diagonal across

7 half of the property. That would normally be

8 a hassle, but we don't even need that area.

9 We don't have to have anything on it and it's

10 already an open channel. Now I think for

11 maintenance we just put in a concrete bottom

12 in the bottom of the channel, we put an

13 outlet structure at the downstream end where

14 the water goes in an existing culvert under

15 the intersection, that controlled structure

16 meets my requirements for detention, and --

17 Q. Also gives you access to that canal?

18 A. And the whole thing is totally open. And

19 then we also remove even more of the dirt

20 around it to make it into kind of a pond area

21 and then we replant new grass. That way it's

22 easy to mow, it was a pretty cheap project.

23 Q. Cheap as being what would that project have

24 cost you from an engineer standpoint?

25 A. I would say the outlet structure and the pipe


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1 maybe $20,000.00.

2 Q. That was what you had projected and

3 suggested?

4 A. Yes, I was proud of myself. It was a good --

5 Q. Of course. Saved money for the City. Isn't

6 that your job to do that?

7 A. Yes, it is my job for the City and I would

8 have made the same recommendation if it would

9 have been a commercial project.

10 Q. So if you were representing the City and a

11 commercial building whether it be built there

12 you would have said the same thing?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Still lived up to your engineering standards?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Still maintaining what the purpose of the

17 storm water is, and getting the job done an

18 inexpensive as possible?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. What then happened?

21 A. At that point I looked over and I noticed

22 Mitch Randles was in the meeting.

23 Q. Who?

24 A. Mitch Randles, the Fire Chief, and Jack

25 Schaller, and there was some other folks


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1 there, Dave Hunt was there, but Mitch looks

2 over at Jack and he shakes his head and he

3 says, you know he's not going to go for that.

4 And Jack said - he looks over at me and he

5 says, all right, he said, the City Manager

6 wants the whole lot level and I said why? I

7 said you're talking about putting this into a

8 culvert now? I said one thing that's

9 following our own regulations. And Mitch

10 says, hey, I would be fine with an open pond.

11 Doesn't bother me a bit. I don't care. But

12 I'm telling you we've already met with Mark

13 once, he wants the whole thing smoothed off.

14 I said, well, for one thing it wouldn't be

15 meeting our standards and for another you are

16 adding a tremendous amount of money to this

17 project and the first fifteen minutes of the

18 meeting was complaining about the fact you

19 don't have enough money to build it.

20 Q. This was Mitch Stephens?

21 A. Mitch Randles.

22 Q. Randles.

23 A. And they said, look, they said we will take

24 your recommendations to Mark, we just don't

25 think he will go for it. And they said what


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1 would the cost be to put a culvert through

2 there? I estimated I said just the cost of

3 the materials alone would be $120,000.00, and

4 as it turns out when it was bid out and we

5 purchased the box culvert it was $100,000.00.

6 Q. So you were wrong by 20 grand?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. On the hard equipment?

9 A. That's just the cost of the box culvert.

10 Q. Would it be a private contractor to do that?

11 A. Well, it ended up to save money we used City

12 forces. We still had to rent pieces of

13 equipment that were big enough to handle that

14 large box culvert, specialized pieces of

15 equipment for the compaction around it, and

16 then also a lot of rock backfill materials.

17 Q. Can you give me a final cost in your estimate

18 as you're sitting here today?

19 A. I would estimate it as roughly as

20 $150,000.00.

21 Q. Okay. So would it be fair to say that you

22 could have saved the City, your employer,

23 $150,000.00 by designing this area the way

24 you intended to design it? Would that be a

25 fair statement?


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1 A. It would be about $125,000.00 because we're

2 going to have to put in a concrete channel.

3 Q. So $125,000.00?

4 A. $125,000.00. Yes, it would have saved

5 $125,000.00.

6 Q. I'm going to ask you to a reasonable degree

7 of certainty within your profession, this is

8 getting into your expertise, was your

9 standard that you had designed it, would it

10 have been according to the standards that you

11 understand you to be bound by, the way you

12 proposed to do it?

13 A. The way I proposed to do it was within our

14 standards, within meeting our own code.

15 Q. You said it was brought to Mr. Rohr. What

16 then occurred?

17 A. At the end of the predevelopment meeting Jack

18 and Mitch both said, look, we will try to get

19 by with the open pond. And they came back

20 and Jack said, okay, he wants us to put in

21 the culvert and he said and we're going to

22 use - I said whose paying for it? And he

23 said, well, we're going to use out of the

24 storm water fund, the storm water sales tax.

25 And I immediately pointed out that is not an


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1 approved project. That's not on the list of

2 projects approved by the voters, and he said,

3 yes, he said, I know, but Mark wants us to do

4 that. So he said, but I did win one

5 concession from him. I said, look, we've got

6 to try to do something to replace this money

7 and Mark said, we will sell in the future the

8 remaining pieces of property there that we

9 don't really need, we will sell that and the

10 money from that sale will go back to help

11 replace the cost of the box culvert. To

12 which I said I'm not an expert in the cost of

13 property, but I can tell you you only have

14 one driveway in and out off of

15 Schifferdecker, you're sharing it with the

16 Fire Department, and though it is on a corner

17 of a nice intersection it's still a terrible

18 lot and you're building it on very poor soil

19 conditions that we would have to disclose.

20 We couldn't sell it without disclosing the

21 fact that you're basically going to be stuck

22 with a pier design because we would get in

23 trouble if we didn't.

24 Q. What's a pier design, sir?

25 A. It's drilled piers for your foundation.


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1 Q. Okay. Costs a lot of extra money for the

2 buyer to build?

3 A. It does.

4 Q. And you knew that as an engineer that would

5 require piers at that location?

6 A. Yes, it's terrible, terrible property.

7 Q. So you disclosed that to Mark personally?

8 A. I did not. Jack Schaller and Mitch Randles,

9 they're the ones that went. I don't know

10 what took place at that meeting, I just know

11 the result coming out of that meeting was we

12 were building this very expensive box culvert

13 system with the one caveat that the future

14 sale of the remaining parcel would go back to

15 help replace that.

16 Q. And they told you that was Mark's suggestion

17 to use those funds?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now as I understand it the storm water fund

20 is a separate tax?

21 A. There's a sales tax, part storm water sales

22 tax.

23 Q. Doesn't that require Council vote to approve

24 a project under that?

25 A. It does.


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1 Q. And did you have Council - was that ever

2 brought to Council for vote?

3 A. You know, it was --

4 Q. At the time --

5 A. I'm having a hard time remembering whether I

6 brought to Council the purchase of the

7 $100,000.00 box culvert. I cannot remember

8 whether I brought that to Council. It should

9 have been. I can verify that.

10 Q. Can you get back with me?

11 A. Typically I would do a green sheet and take

12 it to Council.

13 Q. Well, but Council would not have known that

14 that was not necessary in that project?

15 A. No, they wouldn't.

16 Q. Would you have disclosed that?

17 A. Not if I wanted to keep my job.

18 Q. They would have said why would you do it the

19 expensive way as opposed to saving us money?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. So you did this under order of Mark Rohr

22 basically?

23 A. Passed through Jack Schaller, but yes.

24 Q. What's Jack Schaller's position?

25 A. He was the Assistant Director of Public


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1 Works.

2 Q. Is he gone?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did he get fired for this?

5 A. No, he left the City after the City Manager

6 demoted the Director of Public Works.

7 Q. Who was the Director?

8 A. David Hertzberg.

9 Q. Should I talk to Mr. Schaller? Would he

10 confirm what you've just told me under oath?

11 A. I believe he would have to.

12 Q. I mean certainly you would expect that he

13 would. Would he lie, for example, to me?

14 A. No, Jack wouldn't lie.

15 Q. How can you get hold of Schaller?

16 A. He now works for Olson Associates Consulting

17 Firm.

18 Q. Is he getting money from the City in his - I

19 mean would that affect his --

20 A. As a consultant, yes.

21 Q. So he may not want to talk about this?

22 A. He may not. That's true.

23 Q. Does he still get projects from Mark Rohr?

24 A. Yes. Well, we selected, myself and the other

25 consultants and the new Director of Public


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1 Works, we have selected Olson Associates to

2 do work for the City.

3 Q. Because they're capable of doing that

4 business?

5 A. Well, and specifically Jack Schaller who was

6 handling key projects before leaving the

7 City, you couldn't grab another consultant

8 that could step in and do it as well as the

9 guy that was already running it.

10 Q. Right. So if I talk with Schaller there is

11 the possibility he wouldn't want to talk with

12 me. And I certainly don't have any right to

13 make him. I do have a right to make you

14 talk.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. And I have a right to make Mark talk, and I

17 have a right to as you know to discipline

18 somebody through the Council if they don't

19 talk with me, but I can't do that with Mr.

20 Schaller because he doesn't work there. What

21 about this other guy, Hertzberg, does he

22 still work for the City?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would he speak honestly to me?

25 A. Yes.


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1 Q. Do you know him?

2 A. David Hertzberg is honest to a fault and --

3 Q. Does he know about this situation?

4 A. Yes, he knows because I was pretty vocal

5 about everyone involved.

6 Q. I would think you would be upset.

7 A. Well, right.

8 Q. You know, it's your duty, I mean sworn duty

9 and you've got an engineering responsibility

10 and someone is stepping on your fingers.

11 Would that be a proper assessment here?

12 A. It is, and the thing that bothered me the

13 most about it is I have to go and require if

14 you were building an office in the City of

15 Joplin I would require you to follow our --

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. And no one wants to.

18 Q. No, of course not.

19 A. It costs you extra money.

20 Q. Absolutely.

21 A. In the interest of treating everyone the same

22 I would make you do it. I had to make

23 people, churches, commercial properties, you

24 know, development, I had to treat them all

25 the same and I pride myself on treating them


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1 the same so it was very aggravating.

2 Q. Well, it's against your sensibilities and

3 your professional responsibility. This guy

4 is sitting over the top of you basically.

5 Now you don't believe that Schaller and

6 Hertzberg made those decisions?

7 A. No, sir.

8 Q. You don't believe that the Fire Chief made

9 that decision?

10 A. No, sir.

11 Q. Would the Fire Chief support your position

12 that this is what happened?

13 A. If he was answering honestly.

14 Q. Does he still work for the City?

15 A. Yes, he does.

16 Q. Mitch Randles?

17 A. Uh-huh.

18 Q. Do you know Mitch Randles?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you trust him?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you contact him and ask him to come and

23 talk with me about this? Would he support

24 your position or is he going to support Mark?

25 A. I think he would support the position because


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1 --

2 Q. It's the truth.

3 A. Yeah, it's the truth.

4 Q. Well, you know guys lies, some guys lie?

5 A. Uh-huh.

6 Q. Is he directly under Mark at this point?

7 A. Yes, as Fire Chief.

8 Q. As you are?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You are admonished not to discuss anything we

11 talked about to anybody except if you will

12 take that lead for me and see if the Fire

13 Chief will confirm this matter. Would you do

14 that?

15 A. I can do that.

16 Q. I'm going to give you one of my cards and if

17 the Fire Chief would support your position on

18 this I would like to have the Fire Chief come

19 in tomorrow. I'd like you to have him come

20 in and talk to me at the end of the day,

21 maybe 5:00 o'clock or something like that.

22 Would you do that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I want to admonish you not to talk to anybody

25 else except the Fire Chief and maybe Mr.


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1 Hertzberg, if you can.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. Would you be able to do that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This is the topic I'm wanting to talk about.

6 Just tell them that if they don't - I mean I

7 can ask them to come in here, but there's no

8 sense of me asking if I'm going to have to

9 end up firing one of them for not talking.

10 A. Right.

11 Q. Do you understand what I'm saying?

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. So nobody else other than those two and they

14 cannot talk to anybody.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. Will you tell them that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I'd like to see them tomorrow, if I

19 could.

20 A. I can do that.

21 Q. All you have to do is they can come over,

22 they can get off work and come over and see

23 me at any time. Mr. Head is my contact, he's

24 the Attorney, the City Attorney, and if there

25 is anybody that gives anybody grief I call


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1 Brian Head, okay?

2 A. Okay. For instance, if one of them can't be

3 here like - if I find out that the Fire Chief

4 is out of town --

5 Q. Yeah, I'll talk to him some other time. But

6 I still don't want anybody talking about this

7 stuff.

8 A. Right.

9 Q. It's a very confidential matter. You can see

10 why?

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. Let's be honest about it, Mr. Rohr could fire

13 you?

14 A. Uh-huh.

15 Q. At this point if he finds out, and he will at

16 some point find out, it is my hope that he's

17 no longer in a position where he would fire

18 you and if he did it would possibly be

19 retaliation.

20 A. Right.

21 Q. So there's where we're at, okay? Any

22 questions?

23 A. I don't have any problem with that because

24 it's wrong, you know.

25 Q. A lot of money involved there that shouldn't


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1 have been. To the best of your knowledge

2 could you also find out whether or not you

3 did take that authorization?

4 A. Yes, I can find that out.

5 Q. There should be some kind of paperwork to

6 support that.

7 A. Yeah, I keep a file on the projects I bring

8 to Council. I cannot remember whether I took

9 it to Council. It's just under $100,000.00.

10 Mark could have approved it.

11 Q. Oh, he could have approved it? He had

12 authority to approve it?

13 A. If it is under $100,000.00 he can approve it.

14 Q. Without Council?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. But he shouldn't be approving it?

17 A. No, that only happens - we have made requests

18 occasionally to have Mark approve stuff

19 that's under $100,000.00 without going to

20 Council. Usually it has to do with being in

21 a big time crunch. And what typically when

22 we do it we say can you approve this, can you

23 sign that, and then we tell Council about it

24 at the following, whenever the following

25 meeting was.


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1 Q. Of course in this case it appears to me it

2 was about $125,000.00 additional.

3 A. But the purchase of the box culvert, the box

4 culvert, the precast items, that's just the

5 cost of the box culvert. Then you have

6 equipment rentals --

7 Q. Do they consider those separate items?

8 A. Yes, they'll all separate.

9 Q. So he may have jurisdiction to do that

10 without Council?

11 A. A lot of the other stuff - well, I know that

12 we didn't take the rental of equipment, I

13 know that didn't go to Council, and I know

14 that all of it because I said, look, I don't

15 have a project number, I can't issue a P.O.

16 without a project number, what project number

17 do you want me to use? And I emailed that to

18 Leslie Jones and said, look, you know this

19 isn't a project, it's not on the approved

20 list, how am I supposed to write a P.O. for

21 that? And she emailed back and said there's

22 a general number that we use. Typically the

23 general number is for stuff that just comes

24 up and usually it's small stuff or it's an

25 emergency repair, a hole that's fallen in in


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1 the street and it's because a pipe is broken,

2 we have to replace that pipe, it could be

3 $25,000.00, $30,000.00 to do that, you use

4 the general number to do that. Well,

5 typically I don't see anything that big on

6 the general number and so, yeah, and it makes

7 it hard. I've tried to put comments on each

8 purchase order so you know it went to the

9 fire station. Because if somebody came in

10 and said, well, how much did the fire station

11 cost, they wouldn't really know the number.

12 Q. Because that was not assigned to the

13 firehouse?

14 A. Yeah, unless an auditor was --

15 Q. Pretty sharp.

16 A. -- really sharp and looked at the - if he was

17 just looking at the purchases to that project

18 number he'd have one number unless somebody

19 told him, oh, by the way, all these purchase

20 orders here which you have to look through

21 one-by-one and kind of know which ones they

22 are.

23 Q. Would you be able to get that purchase order

24 for me, also?

25 A. Yes.


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1 Q. So we want a copy of the purchase order.

2 What was the other item I asked?

3 A. Talking with David.

4 Q. And there was another item.

5 A. Mitch Randles.

6 BY COURT REPORTER: Then whether you

7 brought it to Council.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Let's wait until you make

10 those notes. Hertzberg and Randles, see if

11 they'll confirm your suggestion that they

12 knew what was done to you in that regard.

13 And the costs that were assigned to the

14 general as opposed to the firehouse.

15 A. Okay, green sheet and P.O.s for fire station,

16 culvert.

17 Q. Will they have Mark's signature on them?

18 A. No, typically the Director of Public Works

19 does it.

20 Q. Who is the Director of Public Works?

21 A. At the time it was David Hertzberg.

22 Q. Did David ever tell you that this should not

23 have been done in this fashion? Did anybody

24 tell you that?

25 A. I would say this is completely wrong.


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1 Q. So you know yourself?

2 A. Yes, I know. I said you know this isn't

3 right. It's not fair to the voters because

4 they didn't approve this. I really don't

5 have a problem with telling the voters we

6 didn't specifically plan on using this money,

7 but we are. That I don't have an issue with

8 as long as you tell them through Council.

9 What aggravates me the most is the fact that,

10 one, we're not telling anybody about it, two,

11 the whole reason for putting in this stupid

12 culvert is just so the damn lot can be flat,

13 you know. It's to placate his whim on

14 appearances, you know, because he just

15 doesn't like the looks of a pond. Shit.

16 That's a lot of tax dollars, too.

17 Q. Let me ask you this question. Did you ever

18 talk with Rohr and tell him this was

19 inappropriate?

20 A. No.

21 Q. While we're on this topic I'm going to

22 diverge just a little bit. Have you ever

23 experienced Mr. Rohr's demeanor when he's

24 upset concerning dealings with people that

25 are under his supervision?


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1 reasoning is, you know, the only information

2 he gets about building folks is people

3 calling to complain. Well, I'm a contractor

4 and I'm mad about this or I'm mad about that.

5 Well, so he doesn't give them funding for

6 hardly anything, and yet that building

7 handful of people bring in through their fees

8 a tremendous amount of money and so it with

9 not enough people, not enough equipment,

10 almost no training. We'll all complained

11 about the lack of training. You can't get

12 into paper training.

13 Q. For any department?

14 A. Yeah, for any department. Anything in Public

15 Works is the only thing I know about. That

16 stupid software, our accounting software,

17 Navaline, you know, I've been there for eight

18 years and have never actually received

19 Navaline training. I'm able to authorize and

20 in the loop and have to approve requisitions,

21 big ones, and I have never received any

22 training on that software.

23 Q. Have you complained about that --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- to Mr. Rohr?


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1 A. Yes, and I have not - but Jack Schaller

2 stated several times that he did and David

3 Hertzberg said we need to spend more money on

4 this training. We need to do some training.

5 Q. It seems like he's wanting to save money, but

6 then you just gave me an experience where he

7 flaunted the saving of money?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In the project that you gave me?

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. Have you heard anybody complain about him

12 demeaning or screaming at employees? Have

13 you witnessed that?

14 A. I heard complaints about him being short with

15 employees and being harsh with employees, and

16 it's always the same ones, the ones that

17 actually have contact with him.

18 Q. Who are they?

19 A. You're looking strictly at your department

20 heads, your Fire Chief to a certain extent.

21 I don't get around him very often, but the

22 Fire Chief, definitely I see Dan Pekarek or

23 the Health Department, you know, Dan is like,

24 oh, boy, I'm meeting with Mark, oh, that's

25 going to be terrible. Jack Schaller, Troy


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1 Bolander, everyone that has to deal with him

2 just don't want to.

3 Q. And that's been your experience?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it a fear of losing a job, a fear of his

6 demeanor?

7 A. It's a fear of losing your job, a fear of his

8 demeanor, and also it's kind of his way or

9 the highway. I know Robert Lolley was very

10 uncomfortable with funding sources, what we

11 were being pushed to do with one of the

12 street scape projects.

13 Q. With one of the what?

14 A. Street scape projects. I know the very first

15 street scape project and the ones after that

16 until I finally stopped doing it the lights

17 that are out in the radius of the curve if

18 you go up to 4th and Main you'll notice that

19 there's streetlights at each of the four

20 corners. A couple of them I've been able to

21 move, but some of them are still right out in

22 the radius. That's because that's how he did

23 it in Peekwa (ph.) and he told us to do it

24 that way. We said that is a bad idea, we

25 don't want to do it that way.


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1 Q. Why is that?

2 A. You're putting it out in the radius so that

3 when trucks take a corner they hit it. They

4 can't take as much of a corner because it's

5 right on the radius and that's already a

6 tight intersection. The engineering staff

7 says, no, we don't want to do it that way.

8 We were overrode and that was back when it

9 was Rob Smith and David Hertzberg at the very

10 beginning.

11 Q. That was because of Mark?

12 A. That was Mark overriding the engineering

13 staff's recommendations.

14 Q. Mark is not an engineer, is he?

15 A. No, no. No, and it was all about - I mean it

16 wasn't even - you can't even appreciate how

17 the look was, but he was dead set on it out

18 in the radius. Since then we've probably

19 replaced a dozen of them where they've been

20 knocked over. If I were a truck driver and I

21 hit one of those I would sue the city. I

22 would lawyer up and sue the city, and I think

23 they would win.

24 Q. Doesn't make sense from an engineering

25 standpoint?


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1 A. Yeah, being an expert witness on that would

2 be very easy. You would look at it and say,

3 okay, you put a light right out at the

4 radius, right out on the corner.

5 Q. This is one of those, what do you call it,

6 radius section where your back tire of the

7 truck is going to top on it?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. That's designed, the radius?

10 A. You do expect the trucks, when they do the

11 turning radius on there you expect the trucks

12 to get over on it.

13 Q. So it's not a normal curb, it's a small curb?

14 A. It's a ramp, an ADA ramp.

15 Q. A ramp, okay.

16 A. And you smooth out the ramps on the corner

17 and sometimes you can't help that kind of

18 stuff, but this was just - and what tears us

19 up about that is I know that your average

20 public person drives through there and says

21 those idiot engineers. And it wasn't us. We

22 were overruled on that.

23 Q. Okay. You mentioned a name of somebody that

24 was really afraid of talking with him at a

25 meeting. What was that guy's name that you


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1 said?

2 A. I know that Robert Lolley was not real

3 thrilled with --

4 Q. Lolley? How do you spell that?

5 A. L-O-L-L-E-Y, Robert Lolley.

6 Q. What does he do?

7 A. He's in charge of the buses, the trolley

8 service.

9 Q. And he's a department head?

10 A. No, he's underneath Public Works. Actually

11 Operations.

12 Q. You'll talk to the Chief and Hertzberg about

13 what we've talked about on the other issue?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is it your opinion that was an illegal

16 use of that money?

17 A. Yes, because it wasn't brought up to the

18 Council.

19 Q. But you said you subsequently brought

20 something to the Council on it?

21 A. It sure wasn't explained.

22 Q. So you think that if it would have been

23 explained the Council would not have gone

24 along with it?

25 A. It depends on how you frame the explanation.


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1 If I was to frame the explanation, no, I

2 don't think they - if you went to the Council

3 and you said, well, we have two options. One

4 costs this much, one costs this much, and

5 this one results in this pond area next to it

6 and this one results in it being flat, you

7 know. For the amount of money they would

8 have said --

9 Q. Well, let me ask you this. Is there

10 something environmentally wrong with having a

11 pond?

12 A. No, no, that's what you want.

13 Q. I mean esthetically that would have been

14 pleasing?

15 A. Well, it's a dry detention pond. When it

16 rains it fills up with water, then it drains

17 off and it's just kind of a dipped in grassy

18 area. You drive around and see them all the

19 time, you just don't know it.

20 Q. So it's standard operating procedure as far

21 as you're concerned?

22 A. It's required.

23 Q. Standard?

24 A. Yes, standard requirement. In your city,

25 mine, St. Louis --


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1 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this question. Is

2 there something with the creation of the pond

3 would be a mosquito breeding area?

4 A. No, you control the amount of time that it

5 takes for it to drain.

6 Q. So you don't really see why Manager Rohr

7 would come to this conclusion? You don't

8 have a real reason for that?

9 A. He likes things to be - his preference is

10 everything mowed very neatly like a giant

11 golf course.

12 Q. I mean I realize that's his preference, but I

13 mean from a City Manager standpoint I mean

14 you've never been a City Manager, --

15 A. No.

16 Q. -- so from an engineering standpoint there

17 was no reason to spend the extra money?

18 A. Oh, absolutely not, you.

19 Q. And you did recommend against it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you still would recommend against it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And retroactively you would say if called to

24 a stand publicly you would say that was a bad

25 move and I was forced to do it?


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1 A. Yes, I didn't have any choice. I was ordered

2 to do it and I didn't like it.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you and I appreciate you coming

4 in here.

5 A. Sure.

6 Q. We're off the record.

7

8 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED)

9

10

11


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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI

ss.

COUNTY OF JASPER

I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the

State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the

foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the

14th day of November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was

examined. That examination was then taken by me by

steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn

Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set

out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith

returned.

I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or

relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of

either party or of the attorney of either party, or

otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

_________________________

SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

Johnson, Daniel | Testimony transcript

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Transcript of Johnson, Daniel | Testimony transcript