Ivan Fandino - CTL Matador of the Year 2012 andAnniversary Lunch Guest of Honour

Club Taurino of LondonNumber 210 January/February 2013

Ivan Fandiho at Ascot and

Left: Ivan, Nestor Garcia and Mark Rayner study the form. Above: Ascot group•;- -

Herbert Wiese and David Penton with Ivan

Helen Windrath and Ivan

!-u Left:PhilipEdgeand NoelChandlerat theAnniver-saryLunch

Above: Ivan dis-plays his Matadorof the Yeartrophy

Left: Ivan withClemencia Wiese

Below: Lunch attendees at the Rubens Hotel toast their guest. Ivan receives his Club badge from Brian Harding

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the CTL's Anniversary Lunch

Ivan withSecretaryGeneralAndrewMoore (left)and withPublicRelationsOfficer MikePenning(right)

Left: Retired Secretary General Brian Harding with special award

One of the Anniversary Lunch tables

Novillero David White and Lucv Burman Rosannah Smith

Above: LennyFreedman, InmaGarcia- Colavi-das and JennyKimber

Right: JennyGodwin andJanet Fisher

DavidBuckingham Tovin and Martin Schwitzner with Ivan

Left-right thisrow: DianaWebb, JimWatson, Steven& LouiseChurch, RandiWeaver andPenny Penton

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Apart from the author's observations while visitingthe exhibition, this article draws heavily from theexcellent book produced in conjunction with it whichincludes many illustrations of prints that are in theBritish Museum's collection but for which there wasnot space to display. Entitled Renaissance to Goya -Prints and Drawings from Spain, it has 320 pages with350 colour illustrations. Objects from the museum andmany other institutions are discussed alongside thepaintings and frescos to which they relate thusrevealing the central role prints and drawings had inthe visual culture of Spain. By Mark P McDonald andpublished by The British Museum Press, it costs £25.The plate numbers quoted above are taken from thisbook.

Interview with Ivan FandihoAndrew Moore

Ivan Fandino visited London in November, to attendthe CTL's 53rd. anniversary lunch as principal guestof honour. He travelled with his long-standing friendand manager, Nestor Garcia. They returned to Madridshortly after the lunch held at the Rubens Hotel onSunday 25th November.

We prepared the visit well in advance. Mark hadasked me to propose the idea over the summer, and Imanaged to raise the idea first with Nestor Garcia inBilbao in August. Nestor said without hesitation thathis matador would be pleased to come to London andthat, at present, there were no other commitments inthe diaries for the CTL's anniversary weekend. Headded, however, that the plan might have to bereconsidered if a significant contract were to arise forour weekend. And, I confess, that became my chiefworry for many weeks. But all of us (I mean both theguests and the Committee) thought that the risk wasworth running, and all worked out well in the end.When my wife and I made our way to Terminal 4 ofMadrid airport on Friday 23rd November, there wereIvan Fandino and Nestor Garcia, ready and waiting inthe lounge, for the flight to London.

Accompanying Nestor and Ivan to and from Londonwas a great experience for me and for my wifeMalena too. I had never been able to spend so muchtime talking about toros with a super-star such asIvan, nor with such a manager as Nestor. I learntmuch about many things, particularly the personalityand aspirations of Ivan, about the relationship

between a matador and his manager, and about theprofessional problems within the world of the bulls:the rivalries, the disappointing moments, a certainlack of solidarity and the sheer difficulty of makingthe grade (or being sufficiently lucky) in such acompetitive profession.

I was impressed by Ivan's mental and physicaldisciplines. His focus on the subject of bullfightingwas intense. He was modest and reserved during non-taurine conversations, but there was no stopping himwhen the conversation shifted back to the bulls. Hisemphasis on physical fitness was notable. He likes torun at least 15 kilometres each day, in addition toexercising and toreo de salon. (He does not, by theway, use or like gyms). He is a very simple eater:absolutely no sugar, minimum fats and no alcohol. Idouble-checked on that: he and Nestor confirmed thathe never drinks alcohol, except for one single glass ofwine with his cuadrilla in October, to celebrate theend of the season. One of his hobbies is cooking, butall the dishes he prepares are simple, traditional andlow in fats. His other great hobby is riding, and horsesin general.

I gained a lot of information about Ivan's last twoseasons, 2011 and 2012, the seasons that brought himso much fame and success in such a short space oftime. Readers of La Divisa will be familiar too withthose successes: the four brilliant afternoons inMadrid in 2011 (the goyesca on 2nd May with bullsof Carriquiri, the substitution for Curro Diaz on 14thMay, the Cuadris on 2nd June, and the mano a manowith David Mora in October). Then his even moreextraordinary season in 2012: 22 performances in 1stcategory rings, 5 appearances in Madrid, 2 encerronasin Bilbao and Valencia, and many successfulafternoons elsewhere, cutting ears from bulls of bothdifficult, "hard" ganaderias - such as Fuente Ymbro,Victorino Martin, Adolfo Martin, Moises Fraile, andAdelaida Rodriguez - as well as from "easier"ganaderias, and even one indulto. By mid-October2012 he had cut 67 ears from 129 bulls in 58 corridas,earning him number 3 place in the listings.

His programme in Britain was busy. The priority ofcourse was the anniversary lunch with the memberson the Sunday, but when he learnt that there might besome free time on the Saturday, he and Nestorexpressed interest to me in seeing British racinghorses, in action and at close quarters. TheCommittee's response was to arrange a day for Ivanand Nestor at Ascot race-course on the Saturday. Itwas a brilliant idea, one hundred per cent successful,and for which Ivan and Nestor were truly grateful.Mark even arranged a VIP box for the guests and theCommittee (and at no cost to the membership). It wasa fabulous day. We had a perfect view of the finalyards of each race, an excellent Anglo-Indian buffetlunch, snacks and champagne for everyone, plusplenty of time to talk about the bulls at leisure withour guests, in the quieter moments (though thereweren't many of these). The weather was poor - greyand cold and rainy - but the races were exciting. Theatmosphere at Ascot was electric. So much aficion

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The turning point: Ivan with Carriquiri bull in Madrid'sLas Ventas, 2 May 2011

(for horses) amongst so many people, Nestorobserved. Reminiscent of a good day in Las Ventas!

The lunch has been well described elsewhere by ourSecretary General. Suffice to remind readers that itwas brilliantly organized by Mark, David and otherson the Committee, and was well attended, by over 110guests. Our guest of honour did his level best, withinthe short time available, to meet as many people aswanted to talk to him, and to sign as many photos ormenus as he could. He seemed genuinely impressedby the enthusiasm, knowledge and friendliness shownto him at the lunch. He was impressed by thenumbers. He spoke eloquently after dessert, sayinghow much our aflcion impressed him too. He bravelytried English roast beef, horseradish sauce, and evenYorkshire pudding, which amazed him. He baulked atcranberry sauce, however, despite my pleading.

Ivan fitted in a bit of tourism, on the evening of hisarrival. Malena and I took him up Victoria Street toWestminster Abbey, to Westminster Bridge and theHouses of Parliament, and then up Whitehall to seeNo 10, the ministries and the Cenotaph (still decked inbeautiful red poppies), Horse Guards Parade, and thenup to Trafalgar Square and the National Gallery.Tired, we finally took refuge in a Spaghetti House inSt. Martins Lane, to eat mushroom risotto (one ofIvan's favourite dishes).

Early on the Sunday morning Ivan did his earlymorning run in St. James's Park. He told us heenjoyed the lake, the trees and gardens, and thepelicans, and seeing the cavalry horses again. Nestor,independently, sought out the Changing of the Guardsceremony at Buckingham Palace. However, therewere rather too many tourists there for comfort. Hesaw more of the palace than the guards.

Ivan was a charming person. I was impressed by hishonesty, his ambition to be the best, and hisdetermination not to follow a more traditional,"easier" career path. He is far removed from thepublicity-seeking "Hola" group of matadors. Heremains close to his parents and to his sister. He lovesthe countryside and dislikes spending too much timein big cities. He lives in Guadalajara, not Madrid orBilbao, and trains a lot in a remote ganaderia inCiudad Real province. I asked him about hisretirement aims - obviously not a priority for himnow - and he said these will definitely be to remain inthe country. But at the moment his mind focusses onMadrid, and his ambition to exit through the PuertaGrande, which he had so been so near to achieving onseveral occasions in 2011 and 2012, but never quitemade.

Shortly before leaving the hotel on the Saturdaymorning, I interviewed Ivan for about 30 minutes. Mytranslation of that interview follows.

Ivan: many thanks for giving this interview, which isfor the members of the CTL and their bi-monthlypublication: La Divisa.

To begin with, is it fair to say that the 2011 was aturning point in your career? And, if so, whatcontributed most to that turning-point?

The turning point was the bull of Carriquiri that Ikilled in the 2nd May goyesca in Madrid. My careerchanged on that day. That bull marks the "before" andthe "after" in the career of Ivan Fandino. Many othersthings happened of course afterwards: my substitutionof Curro Diaz in the corrida of El Montecillo on the14th May, in which I cut another ear. Then the corridaof Cuadri where I was on the point of opening thepuerta grande. Then that fourth afternoon in Madrid inthe autumn, the mano a mano with David Mora,which was an epic afternoon. I think those were thefour cardinal points of my 2011 season. There weremany other important triumphs in 2011, but if you askme to select the moments that made Ivan Fandino intowhat he is today, it is those four afternoons in Madridin 2011.

So Madrid - with its difficult and demanding public -is still a decisive plaza?

Yes, of course. Precisely because its public is sodifficult, and because things are so complicated for atorero in Madrid. A triumph there is very significant,more so than elsewhere. The repercussions in theprofessional world are greater because it is so difficultto triumph in Madrid.

The Madrid public is known to be very special. Whatis the key to a succeeding there?

I wouldn't call it a "special" public. It's rather a"demanding" public ("un publico revindicativo"). Itdemands a kind of toreo that has purity and truth, andhonour. When a torero shows those qualities in thering, the Madrid crowd will surrender. When Madrid

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sees a torero who is committed, who is doing truethings, then the crowd appreciates that torerounconditionally. They want a torero who directs allhis efforts and energy to performing pure toreo.That's when Madrid surrenders to a torero.

Could you comment on the great faena you gave tothat bull Mulillero of Adolfo Martin this year inMadrid, on 2nd June. The one that went so well on theright horn, but one section of the public demandedthat you try the left. You acceded, it did not work, youlost the ears and a probable puerta grande.

Yes, the public wanted to see the bull with the lefthand. What happens is that often we toreros see thingsthat the aficionado misses. I had already passed thatbull once or twice on the left horn, and saw that it didnot have the length of charge nor the "transmission"that would allow me to maintain the emotionalintensity of the faena. But the public asked me to usethe left hand, and I felt obliged to do what theyrequested. I think that, looking back, they repent that.But we should remember that when you are inMadrid, there are things that you have to do. Thefaena did decline at that point. But I don't blame thepublic. The real reason why I lost the ears is that mykilling was poor. Circumstances are oftenunfavourable. What you must do is overcome them. Itwas an accumulation of problems: the switch to theleft horn, my bad use of the sword ... everything justsuddenly went downhill.

How different it all was on your subsequentappearance in Madrid, with that valdefresno on 6thOctober, the one that was protested, but you sawsomething in it, gave it distance and created a greatfaena, changing the attitude of the full plaza in a flash.

Don't think that I had completed my analysis of thatbull by the time I began the faena. What happens isthat when you have a positive attitude, you can oftentransform something bad into something good. In thecase of the valdefresno, it was never really clear evenwith the horses, and the bull always went on walking("andando"). It wouldn't stop; it never committeditself to a cape. The best thing to do in thosecircumstances is to give distance to a bull. It allowsyou to take stock, and develop your ideas clearly. Andyou cannot believe my own surprise when, on givingit 20 metres of distance, the bull suddenly charged.The public applauded the spectacle. I just made a beton that bull, and it worked. I gave it distance,benefitted from the inertia of its charge, and created aspectacle that the public were not expecting. Thepublic was taken by surprise, and that's what changedtheir mood.

Moving from Madrid to Bilbao, could you saysomething about your home plaza? Do you think it'sas demanding as Madrid?

I have always considered the Bilbao audience to be"torista", in the sense that they like a large bull. Butthey are also "torerista" at the same time. They don'tsimply stick so much to traditional norms

("canones"); they allow their feelings to rule a bitmore. They do like a big bull however! It is one ofthose plazas where the bulls are the largest. But it's apleasure to do the paseillo in Bilbao. The Bilbaopublic is highly sensitive, and when you are enjoyingyour work with a bull in Bilbao, they appreciateeverything you do. They evaluate your work fairly.They judge you in the light of the bull that you havebefore you. That's nice for us toreros. In thosecircumstances, you feel very comfortable. You canexpress yourself.

One of the most worrying and negative moments ofyour 2012 season was the encerrona in Bilbao on 16thJune, the concurso de ganaderias. What happened thatday, and what went wrong?

It was an accumulation of circumstances. Because ofthe way I understand toreo. I am not a conformist sortof person. I want an aficionado to be really interestedin going to see me in the plaza. I don't want to be atorero who looks for an easy life ("toreroacomodado"), with easy programmes, or easy bulls("toros faciles"). I want to contribute to the professionI have chosen.

When I finished the 2011 season, with my higherpublicity ratings, I felt an obligation to do somethingfor the aficion, to do something different, somethingthat people had been demanding for some time, andsomething had not been done for some tune. The ideaarose to kill six bulls in Bilbao, of three differentencastes. Originally I had asked for a corrida of only 3ganaderias: two from Alcurrucen, two from FuenteYmbro and two from Adolfo Martin. In the end, thatidea was not approved. An alternative idea, to kill sixbulls from six different ganaderias and differentencastes, was virtually imposed on me. I accepted it,rather reluctantly, though I knew that if the ideaworked out well, it would be a historical landmark. SoI accepted. You have to bet in life if you want to winin life. Of course, you run the risk of losing. But ifyou never lay a bet, you never know if you will win ornot. I did it with the best of intentions. I thought thiswould be an opportunity for aficionados to see whatthey have been wanting to see in the fiesta, to provethat you don't have to just have corridas that centre onjust four or five ganaderias, throughout the season,that there are many other encastes which will allow atorero to create a spectacle, and do important lidia.

Imagine my surprise when I arrived at the plaza to seethat the plaza was not fall. Not even two thirds,probably not even half fall. For me that was a realblow ("batacazo"), after all the effort of preparation.To kill six bulls in Bilbao is anything but pleasant fora torero, and to see that the aficion had not responded:that was a blow. Then it began to rain, and theempresa proposed cancelling. It was really hard totake things forward that day. Psychologically andsentimentally, it was a real challenge. No one hadgiven me any help, in any way, before that corrida. Iwent ahead with it to satisfy myself that I was able toovercome difficult circumstances. And all torerosknow that on occasions you may lose your bet, but

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you have to pick yourself up and to press on ahead.Then you must also remember that I delivered apinchazo to the victorino whose ear I was on the pointof winning. There was an accumulation ofcircumstances that prevented the afternoon fromturning out as I would have wanted.

Many - myself included - admired the care withwhich you handled all the details of the lidia thatafternoon in Bilbao, particularly the care and attentionyou gave to the suertes de varas. Can that approach beextended to other plazas, and on other occasions?

Yes, but remember we have a bit of a problem here.In a concurso de ganaderias you can't expect a toro toenter the horse three or four times and then lastthrough a long faena de muleta. You have toremember that a bull - if it is wild ("bravo") - uses upan enormous amount of its strength in the suerte devaras. You may like to see a bull fully with the horses,but you can't pretend that three entries to the horsewith three puyazos can then be followed by a faena oftwenty or twenty five muletazos. That's practicallyimpossible. And the problem is that if you don't cutears after that, you appear under-valued("desprestigiado"). It's a double edged sword. If youdo the lidia as it should be done, you run the risk ofyour work going unrewarded. So if we could findsome way of evaluating, hi a balanced way, the suertede varas with the corresponding faena de muleta, thenwe may have made some progress. You mustremember that in a concurso de ganaderias you willsee how bulls perform with the horses, but you willnot see the kinds of faena you see in normal kinds ofcorrida.

Would reductions in the size of the puya allow us tosee more entries into the horse?

Yes, you could reduce the size of the puya. But youwould also have to make sure that presidents nolonger have the freedom to choose, at their will, whento change the suerte. Otherwise we toreros will bedisadvantaged. But if you can balance and arrangeboth these things, then yes: I don't think there wouldbe any problem.

What about the tercio de banderillas. Does it retainany importance in today's lidia?

I assess many bulls during that suerte. Many bullsdefine themselves in the suerte de banderillas, and formany reasons. Firstly you can watch a bull gallopingtowards a man who is only holding two banderillas:the bull is hardly obliged in any way. Then you alsosee the bull forced to charge a cape, low. At onemoment the bull feels in control of things, the nextmoment he is being submitted in three low lances.Those circumstances allow you to study the bull'scommitment, the bravura of its charge, the conditionof its charge, for example, if it charges away from thecentre line, or if it charges cutting in. It is animportant suerte for me. It's a good opportunity forthe bull to improve ("irse para arriba"), and arrive atthe muleta with depth ("fondo") and restored energy.

But there are so many extra cape-passes in the suertede banderillas.

That depends. It depends on the lidiador that you havein your cuadrilla. If you are skilled with the cape, andyou have a good physique, then there's no need togive an excessive number of cape passes to a bull.Everything can be measured ("dosificado"). Itdepends on the quality of your cuadrilla.

Does the suerte de banderillas ever have a positiveeffect on the bull?

Yes, of course. That's why they used to callbanderillas the revivers ("avivadores"). The bull maycome away from the horses, feeling sleepy and lowafter losing in that struggle. Then bull may liven up.When it feels the sting of the banderillas, its urge tocharge comes back again.

If you were in charge of the Commission now lookinginto the fiesta, what changes would you recommend?

Well, everything needs to be studied carefully. I am aclassical person, in everything, and I like toreo as it istoday. However, I am not in favour of bulls being solarge, nor do I favour such a long puya. Perhaps theseareas could be reviewed. Perhaps we could reach amiddle path here, one in which bulls are not so large,nor are puyas quite so long. But let's remember whatmustn't be changed. The basis of a bullfight is to havea bull that moves - to have a brave bull, one thattransmits to the tendido - such that spectators in thetendido feel they could not possibly do themselveswhat is being done in the ring, and what they arewitnessing, is something really special. As long as

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you retain those two things, all other things may bestudied, and hopefully modified if it is for the good ofthe fiesta.

The bulls you face tend to be bulls that give plenty ofemotion, in contrast to what many call "commercialbulls".

Yes, but I don't really talk about a "toro comercial". Idon't define things in that way: one of thosecommercial bulls can be as "bravo" as any of theothers. The thing is that circumstances have allowedbulls to be moulded towards today's kind of toreo -bulls that can endure forty muletazos, and muletazosthat can be given without too much effort. That'sprobably why so often today's spectator, sitting in thetendido, feels bored, and that what's going on the ringlooks easy.

I don't talk about a "toro comercial" and a "torotorista". There's an intermediate kind of bull, whichmay or may not be commercial, which may be toristaor not, but which makes demands on a torero. Thekind of bull that, in order to deliver the twentymuletazos everyone is waiting for, forces you to giveall you can. The kind of bull that asks a lot of you,that forces you to lay your bets and gamble, and to"step over" the line in the ring. I think that's the kindof bull we need today.

I think that toreros today - either those at the top orthose who aspire to the top - should believe that whenthey go to a plaza, they are not going there just to passthe time. They need to feel they are going there asheroes, for want of a better word. That they are goingthere to risk their lives. And to risk your life is not justto see whether a bull catches you or not. It is to knowthat each muletazo, or each series of muletazos,requires you to step over the line, to gamble. That'swhy you are what you are. You have to do somethingfor which people admire you. I think a lot ofmysticism has been lost in today's toreo. The result isthat things take on a lower value than the value thatthey should have.

Can you give me some examples of when you havestepped over that line and have gambled?

Well, I gamble practically every afternoon. I'm thekind of person who feels an obligation to cross theline every afternoon. I think your body will do whatyou have accustomed it to. You have a kind of life, ordevelop a set of customs. If what you do is to defendyourself, to get out of the line of a bull, to seek aneasier path, then that's because your sub-conscience isrejecting risk. And then on the day when you want togamble, you won't be able to. That kind of approachis alien to me. If you are a spectator who has bought aticket, you have the right to expect me to take risks.

If you want me to tell you about a bull where Icrossed the line without knowing what would happen,one of those moments which mark you for life - abefore and an afterwards - it would have to the bull ofCarriquiri, in Madrid on 2 May 2011. It was a very

demanding animal. It never submitted entirely to themuleta. It was an aggressive bull, with a great deal oftemper ("genio"). The bull was totally fixed on me atevery moment. I was correctly positioned in my place("colocado en mi sitio") but it kept looking at me,back and forth, time and time again. I crossed, andcited, then crossed further and cited again. Then Icaught its charge. I gave it 3 or 4 muletazos, then theremate. And after the first muletazo, it just neverstopped. That bull had the kind of anger and a sparkthat really gets through to an audience.

Before beginning your faenas, do you have anyformulas or plans in your mind? Do you composeyour faenas in advance?

Not really. If you've trained in the country, masteredyour toreo de salon, and done your tientas, and if youspend all of your day thinking about bulls, then yournatural instincts, and your personality, will inevitablyshine in the plaza. If you go out with something pre-determined and pre-planned in your mind, then yourwork will appear robotic and mechanical. A toreromust express himself. He must have acquiredtechnique, he must have become a real professional,but in his sub-conscience he is expressing himself.You can't just go around thinking about how tocorrect a defect. Rather you must try to put intopractice, in a natural way, all that you have learntduring training.

You are famous for your kills. Can you tell us aboutyour technique?

It is often said that to kill you must enter with truth,with your chest forward. I kill from nearby, with onlya few steps, with my chest set very squarely in frontof the bull, and with a great deal of truth. Manytoreros enter in a similar way, but they start the suertewith their shoulder advanced, and only then swivelthe shoulder, to present their chest. I present my chestfrom the start. My style has impact, and it allows meto save a step in the process. I have always killed inthat way, even as a novillero.

I attack at a very short distance from the bull. Ofcourse, when a bull does not collaborate, it is harderto kill my way, because you don't pass it with suchlength. My style of killing has its pros and its cons.But when my style works, my estocadas areresounding ("contundentes"), and they impress thepublic deeply.

How important is it to square the legs of the bullbefore entering with the sword?

It allows you to gauge the rhythm of a bull's finalcharge. If the bull is standing with one leg slightlyforward and one leg slightly back, it is hard tocalculate how it will approach you and with which legfirst. When the bull's legs are positioned together, itwill begin its charge with its shoulder blades togetherand with its chest forward. First it will move its chest,then it will move its legs. What you must do is ensurethat you have aimed the sword well - right in the

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centre - and that the sword is already beginning toenter at the moment that the bull begins to move.

So many tunes one sees swords placed perfectly in thecentre, but the bull doesn't fall.

There are some encastes that are very slow to drop.Others that will drop with just half an estocada. It's avaried picture.

Do you plan to follow the path you have followed todate, with regards to your choice of ganaderias?

Yes. I wish to continue to face a variety of differentencastes. The good thing at the moment is that I amable to choose my ganaderias. I don't have to acceptganaderias imposed on me. So my situation is ratherdifferent from those toreros who seek a morecomfortable path. And I don't want to be just anothertorero. I want to be the best. That's why I am where Iam. I am not a conformist kind of person: I am acompetitive person. I do not want to fall into thetemptation of becoming just like any other torero.Also, I know where I am now, and I know what I havedone to get to where I am, and the reasons why. If Ichanged from what I have been to date, I would nolonger be myself. I wish to hold on to my freedom, tomy way of thinking, to my ideology and to myconcept of toreo. I wish to defend them, at all costs.To be able to give back to the aficion and to myprofession everything what they have given me - andwith interest - is my greatest satisfaction.

What exactly is your concept of toreo?

My toreo is a toreo without easy options. It is a trueconcept of toreo. I wish to avoid any signs ofweakness, or softness or mistruths. I want everythingthat I do to be truthful. Everything I do must have areason.

My concept of toreo extends from holding the muletain the left hand, without help from the sword, tocrossing to the other horn, to advancing the exit legwhen the bull starts to charge. To present my chest asthe bull begins to charge. And to make sureeverything I do has maximum honesty and a truth.

Many people have thought that this approach is notpossible in every performance. But I am showingpeople that it is possible every day. To retain thatconcept of toreo, with bulls of all different encastes,with all bulls and in every plaza, confers enormousresponsibility on me. At the moment, it is simply notpossible for me to arrive at any plaza and relax in anyway. That's unthinkable. It would mean that IvanFandino is no longer Ivan Fandino.

It is difficult to sustain my concept of toreo, because itrequires considerable physical and mental preparation,and a high degree of commitment to the profession. Itrequires a 100 % commitment. There's no room foranything else.

My ability to maintain this approach is why mypersonality is valued today.

Can you tell us what the keys to your commitmentare?

The key is to be like this in your daily life. I value aperson doing what he/she wants to do, and does whathe/she dreams about. In a world where people aretiring of just conforming, or of just giving pats on theback, a true defence of one's personality is greatlyvalued.

What aspects of your personality are thereforereflected in your toreo?

Everything. The way I am, the way I follow my life'spath, the way I see things, the way I want to seeinjustices removed from the world, to do things theway I see them at every moment, to do what I thinkand feel at every moment. I will make many mistakes,and many will often not agree with what I do. But myrebelliousness - the way I rebel against things that areimposed on me - and my pursuit of truth, makes mefeel I am achieving what I want. And that's veryimportant.

English aficionados are asking to know more aboutthe so-called G 10. How has the G 10 affected torerosoutside the G 10?

The effects of the G10 on emerging toreros have beendisastrous ("nefasto"). They have not had any supportfrom the toreros that are controlling things at themoment, nor from the powerful people who designthe carteles. In my case, the G 10 situation affects theaficion: it has prevented them from seeing me incompetition with those right at the top. It hasprevented the cartels from opening up. They havestuck together in a small group, even preventingthemselves from being televised. People see the sametoreros in the same carteles everywhere, in all theimportant plazas. It means that variety has been lost.We see an accumulation of soporific performances.We have seen the same carteles over the past twentyyears, with the same toros. The result is that thetraditional competitiveness in the world of the bulls,has now gone. Aficionados are reduced to having toaccept what they are given. I think this is all verynegative for the fiesta.

What can we all do to maintain the Fiesta?

We all have to do things for the Fiesta, and not for ourpersonal interest. That's the problem. The problem isthat we don't have an organization or a structure, thatallows us to bring things together, for the good of theFiesta.

Is the declining number of encastes another factorbehind today's crisis and decline in the fiesta?

Yes, it's a negative factor, but we are all to blame. It'san old story: the toreros don't want to face thembecause they are not ganaderias with which one can

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easily triumph. The ganaderos who produce the high-selling product produce more because they know theycan sell them, and that their higher production willforce other ganaderos to reduce. This is onlyaggravated when the scarce products of theseganaderos are rejected at the plaza for lack of trapio.

Do you ever feel that really radical change is neededin the fiesta? What changes are needed to attractyoung people to the plazas?

I think we need to do things differently. I speak tomany, many people. We are antiquated. We retain thesame structures that existed in the 1930s and in the1940s. The bulls still attract a lot of people, but we arestill stuck with old promotion formulae - the poster of"6 bulls 6" stuck on the wall, with 3 matadores, etc.Methods of promotion must be modernized. Wecompete with national TV, with the cinema, withfootball and basketball, but promote ourselves withthe same methods used in the 1940s and 1950s. Bythe way, the fact that it hasn't all collapsed already,means that the Fiesta must have great strength.

Cost is a problem. A couple wanting to go to the toroswith, say, their two children, as a family outing, willgenerally have to find well over 200 euros.

But that depends on the plaza. Impresarios arecommitting injustices! How can it be that the cheapestseat in a temporary village plaza can cost more than aseat in Las Ventas? A seat in the andanada of LasVentas - in the summer when hardly anyone attends -costs around 3 euros, whereas I've been to villageplazas where the cheapest seat is 90 euros. How canthat be? It is quite unjust. Many impresarios are justnot aficionados. They can be more interested inhaving only 3 people going to the plaza, each paying

90 euros, rather than 6 people going and paying 45euros. They do not promote with the longer term inmind. They simply promote to be sure of making a

quick profit. But they should think of the longer termfuture of their business too.

Would it help to reduce basic costs in the Fiesta? Forexample, reduce the number of banderilleros in acuadrilla from 3 to 2, or of picadors from 2 to 1?

That's another question. We can of course look atthese questions, particularly in view of the presenteconomic crisis. But the unions of banderilleros andpicadors are strong, and they will look after theirinterests closely. As for impresarios, there reallyshould be greater union amongst them. They shouldencourage holders of abonos and their children, andother spectators, to continue to want to go to theplazas in future years, so that the numbers inaudiences increase in future years. Their only interestat present is to turn up at the taquilla and go awaywith a quick profit.

But how can one influence impresarios in that way?Their accounts have to balance at the end of theseason.

Yes, that is the problem. But we do need to get amessage to impresarios, that the long-term health ofthe Fiesta must have priority over short term profits.

Could a solution to the crisis lie in further reducingthe number of corridas and novilladas, but increasingtheir quality?

I'm not sure that's the solution. That's not the way totackle the problem of the impresarios whose sole aimis a short term profit. There should be some way ofobliging these impresarios to do something for thegood of the community, for the good of the Fiesta,and to ensure that people go on attending.

But, at the end of the day, impresarios must make aprofit.

Yes, of course: if there are no impresarios, then are nocorridas. They have to do their business. But if weconsider the times in which we are living, they shouldbe obliged to make some net contribution to theFiesta, rather than just go to the taquilla and walkaway with their profit.

I have talked about impresarios. However let's notforget many toreros, even ganaderos, in ourdiscussion today. We also should all be forced tocontribute something positive to the future of thefiesta. Indeed, it shouldn't be something that has to beasked. It should all come naturally.

Ivan: I regret we will have to end the interview, sincethe car has arrived at the hotel to collect you andNestor. I thank you for your time with me. The CTLwill be following your next season closely. We wishyou lots of luck and success, and we thank both youand Nestor for having made this weekend in Londoninto such a valuable and memorable occasion for us.

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