Interview wi th HARRY SUSKIND Page 1 By M. July 19 ......Interview with Harry Suskind Page 2 A....

In terview wi th HARRY S U SKIND By M. Fr i ed rich J u l y 19 , 1976

Ta p e Side In te rview

A . o n the boa rd o f the Bayden S t re e t Se t t l emen t . . .

Q. Oh !

Pa g e 1

A . . a n d they had a mee ting o f the p e r sonne l commi t tee , a n d 1 1 m o n tha t . I t

wa s the kin d o f thing you co uld n 1 t r u s h .

Q . Y e s sir . We l l , 1 1 11 j u s t s ta r t

A . A s a s ta r t of f , 1 1 11 a s I u nd e r s tood the l e t te r , i t wa s f rom 1925 .

Q . Y e s si r . To the p re s en t .

A. To the p r e se n t . Y ou 1 ve ju s t come f rom the mee ting

period . Why did they . . . ?

Q. Why 1925?

A . Y eah . Why

Yeah , a fif ty-yea r

Q . ( U nin tel l ig ib l e ) · Ra b bi Ro s e n be rg 1 s boo k tha t mo re o r le s s i s a n a de q u a te

"�ocument of some problems "t:ha t s to p s a t 1925 .

A. We l l , a c tua l ly , you know, the mo s t in t e r e s ting p a r t o f the histo ry of the

J ew s in Roche s te r wa s be fore 1925 .

Q . Yes sir . 1 1 ve read the boo k . I t is a f a s cina ting s to ry o f the two diffe re n t

communi tie s .

A . You see , 1925 . . . you k now , the a rea taken u p by the bulk o f the J ewish

popu l a tio n wa s r a the r 1 imited in i t s s cope . An d they s ta r ted dis a ppea ring

f rom tha t a rea , a l o t of i t a bo u t 1925 . N o t too l ong a f te r Wo r l d Wa r I .

Q . Oh, I thought i t wa s m u ch l a te r tha t the J o seph Ave n u e . . . a s a . . . .

( A. No , no t the re sid e n tial pa r t o f it .

Q . N o ? The b u sine s s

A . The bu sine s s p a r t came much l a te r . In fac t , a bo u t . . . it wa s disin tegra ted·

I n terview wi th Ha r ry S u s kind

A. (Con tin u ed ) a l l tog e the r a t tha t time of the rio t s . I n 1 964 .

Q . A l o t of peop l e have s aid tha t the re we re e l emen t s of a n ti- s emitism in the

rio t s them s e l ve s . don ' t know , is tha t co r re c t o r . ?

A . Y e s , I think tha t the . . . tha t ' s whe re t he p romo t e r s of the rio t s

a l o t o f them ha d some thing on , you know? The c o l o r e d peop l e who we re the

in s t rumen t s of the rio ting , do n ' t think tha t they we r e so positive l y a n ti-

s emitic . The re we re a l o t of them rea l ized tha t the J ewish p eop l e we r e very

m u ch conce r ned with the co l o red p ro b l em , and did a g rea t dea l towa rd .

towa r d a l l evia ting , I mea n , t rying to . D u ring 1 9 . . . oh , wha t wo u l d be the

d a t e ? ( U nin te l l igi b l e ) the di rec to r of the B ayde n S t ree t Se t t l emen t whe n

he fir s t came a f te r M r s . J a rdone resigned . I t m u s t have been . . . wha t da te

did the . . . of the Wo r l d Wa r I I ? Nine teen

Q . The U ni ted S t a te s 1 94 1 to ' it5 .

A . A ro u n d the re . l n tha t p e rio d . Of cou r se , a n ti- semi tism wa s q uite a n a c tive

p rob l em a t that tim e bec a u s e the Hit l e r regime , you know , the Ge rma n s who

sid ed to a .grea t e x t e n t wi th the Nazi Ge rmany. B u t the co l o red p ro ba b l y we re

con tamina ted with tha t p roba b l y . B u t a c t ua l l y , I neve r . . . they simp l y

a ccep ted the J ew s a s p a r t a nd p a r tia l o f the thing tha t they we re revo l ting

again s t . B u t i t wa s n ' t the p rima ry thing .

Q . I t ju s t ha ppened tha t they we r e . .

A . I t ju s t hap pened . Yea h . And , you know , the id ea tha t a l l J ew s we r e rich

a n d they we re opp o s ed to rich peop l e. Tha t ' s my opinion . Ba r ry C rea ksaw

( s pe l l ing u n k nown ) c ame thin k we l 1 he se rved in Wo r l d Wa r I I . So ,

he came afte r Wo r l d . . a f te r the wa r wa s over .

Q . I n 1946 ?

A . P ro ba b l y a ro u n d the n . And a t tha t time , J ewi sh p eop l e ha d l ef t the ghe t to

a re a a round J o seph Avenue , O rma n d S t ree t , ( U n k nown) S t r ee t. They l e f t . A l o t

I n te rview wi th Ha r ry S u s kind Pa ge 3

A . ( Con t i nued) o f the p rope r ty had fa l l e n i n to the ha nd s o f the ba n k s by

v i r t ue of the fa c t tha t the ba n k s a t tha t t i me d i d n ' t have a com p u l s i on i n

the i r con t ra c to r of the mo r tgage s . Tha t they we re . . . ha d to be repa i d .

A l l yo u d i d wa s p a i d yo u r i n te re s t and the p rope r ty the n . when the J ew s

l e f t i t , they j u s t a ba ndo ned. Now , a l o t o f the rea l e s ta te a ro u nd tha t a rea

wa s a b so r bed by . . . the ba n k s who ha d the m o r tg a g e s . And why the s eve n th

a nd e i ghth wa r d i n tha t a rea wa s u sed by the b l a c k s , so tha t i s whe re

whe re . . . they se t t l ed the re . Whe n they s ta r ted b r i ng i ng i n b l a c k s to the

ag r i cu l t u ra l a rea a ro u n d Roche s te r , and when w i n te r t i me came , the y had no

p l a ce to go so the y come b a c k to the b i g c i ty . So· the re wa s a d em a n d fo r

ren ta l p rope r ty . P l a c e s whe re they cou l d l i ve. And by that t i me , the ba n k s

ha d t a ke n ove r a g rea t de a l of the p rope r ty a r ound J o seph Ave n ue , O rmand S t ree t ,

a nd they s ta r ted re n t i ng to the b l a c k s . Tha t wa s the beg i n n i ng o f the b l a c k

pop ul a tion i n tha t a rea . A n d wh i l e i t i s t r ue tha t

ne s smen s t a yed o n l ong a f te r tha t . I mean . .

Q . The re ' s s t i l l some bu s i ne s se s the re r i ght now .

. . you see , the b u s i -

A . No t m a n y , bu t the . . . the b u l k o f the pa r ticu l a r l y tho s e tha t d i d n't

own a ny p rope r ty the re , or they we re s i mp l y ren to r s o f s to re s , they got ou t

o f the re q u i c k l y . The othe r s by the v i r tue o f the fac t tha t they had rea l

e s t a te the r e a nd wa n ted to re scue i t i f they cou l d , s tayed on l ong e r . Spea k i ng

f rom pe r sona l expe r i e nc e . We s tayed u n t i l 1970 . Tha t wa s s i x . . . s i x yea r s

a f te r the v i o l ence took pla ce .

Q . You mea n yo u r . . . you r b u s i ne s s ?

A . ( A f f i rma t i ve r e s pon se) .

Q. I ' m not fam i 1 i a r w i th wha t yo u do .

A . We l l , I . we had a p a i n t s to r e on Joseph Ave n ue. A re you re l a ted to the

F r i ed r i ch ' s here i n Roche s t e r ?

Q. No . N o I ' m no t. 11m to ta l l y di f fe re n t fami l y e ntirely.

In te rview with Ha r ry Su s kind Pag e 4

A . I see. You a r e f rom Roche s t e r ?

Q. No , I ' m f rom San F ran s i s co.

A . Oh . (U n i n te l 1 i g i b l e)

Q. That's why I a s k a l o t o f s i l l y ques t i on s l i ke t h i s .

A . Yeah. knew t he F r i ed rich;s thoug h , t he

remem be r F rie d r i c h ' s . Abe F ried rich and Son .

. q u i te a bu i l d i n g o u f i t , i f

( U n i n te l l i g i b l e ) a l o t o f

bu s i ne s s wi th him: O f cou r s e , t h ey ' ve gone ban k r u p t n o t t o o l o ng ag o .

Q. Bu t yo u r b u s i ne s s s tayed t he r e u n t i l j u s t a few yea r s ago ?

A . Yea h . We l l maybe maybe you knew I r v i ng C r e e k s fe l d , i f you say you come

f rom San F ran s i sco . He was t he D i rec tor o f t he Three K i ve r s M i s s i on

T h re e M i s s i on . . . The T h ree Mis s i on Se t t l eme n t Hou s e s . Have you hear d o f

them?

Q. I ' ve hea r d of them , bu t I d on ' t k now anyt h i ng .

A . An d h e was t he d i rector . H e l ef t Roc he s te r a n d wen t t o San F ran s i s co. The

man Huh?

Q. I th i n k h ave hear d o f h i m , yeah .

A. Now he wa s a ve ry act i ve man and did a t remendou s j o b of pu s h i ng t he c i ty fo r -

wa r d i n t h e ma t te r o f ho u s i ng. I thin k he d i d i t in San F ran sis co , too .

Becau s e I wa s o u t to San F ran sisco and he too k me o u t , me an d my w i fe and some

o t he r peop l e tha t were t he re f o r l un c h , fe l l ows f rom d i f fe ren t areas of .

1 i ke t he Catho l i c C hu rch , p r i e s t s we re the r e , and peop l e that we r e i n down

town in San F ran s i sco i n t he f i nan c i a l d i s t r i c t . Had a m i xed g ro u p there .

T,hey we re t he re fo r the l u n cheon tha t he had. Then they took u s o n a tou r .

We we re . . . whe re . where he ' s i de n t i fy i ng t he a rea as p o t e n t i a l nex t

s l um area in San F ran s i sco . Whe t he r he was rig h t o r no t , I d o n ' t k now .

i mag i ne he v1a s .

Q. We l 1 , some thing s i m i l i a r has hap pened in San F ran sisco (uni n te l l i g i b l e ) the

J o seph Aven u e . Did you g row u p on J o seph Ave n ue, may be?

I n te rview w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i nd

A . We l l , I was bo r n i n New Yor k , a n d I wa s bo rn i n New York i n 1 894 . T hat1 s

a l ong time . C ame to Roc hes te r in 1 900 . And l i ved , wh i l e we neve r 1 i ved

en t i re l y i n t he area , we were a l wa y s on t he per i p hery . We 1 i ved on C l eve l a nd

S t ree t , and we l i ved on J o sep h Avenue but q uite a wa y s down nea r C l ifford

Aven ue , a nd we 1 i ved on B ra d S t ree t . Tha t wa s a l wa y s around t he per i p hery

o f t he J o sep h Avenue area . Mo s t o f t he J ew s 1 ived i n t ha t a rea , a n d of co u r se ,

t hey came he re l ong befo re 1 925 . That 1 s why I sa y 1 925 i s ac tua l l y not t he

mo s t i n teres t i ng par t .

Q . I t may be a n a r b i t rary po i n t .

A . Yea h . And t ha t 1 s t he fau l t I found o f t he boo k t ha t . . ; wa s i t by Rab b i

Rosen be rg?

Q. Yes .

A . Because he d i d n 1 t have i t i n t here . He did n 1 t ha ve t he . . . wha t I fee l i s

t he rea l s u b s tan ce of t he J ew i sh popu l a tion i n Roc hes ter . Beca u se a f ter 1 925 ,

t ha t was a f te r Wor l d War I , t hey s ta r ted to em i g rate away f rom t he re . Pa r k

Aven ue a rea became impo r t a n t . I rondeq uo i t . . .

Q . I n t he ea r l y 1 30s .

A. Yea h . . . . became i mpo r tan t . Tho se were area s o f se t t l emen t o f J ew i s h

peop l e . B u t once t hey s ta r ted t o d i s pe r s i ng , a ] ]. t here was a t t ha t t i me was

a mat ter o f ,

t ha t 1 s abou t

t hin k , a bou t 20 , 000 J ews t ha t 1 i ved i n Roche s ter . g ue s s

. . roug h l y a bo u t the t i me . A n d y o u s t a r t d i s pe r s i ng t hem to

B r i g h ton and to I ron deq uoi t , you don 1 t have a ve r y t h i c k l y pop u l ated a rea .

So , t he J ew i s h peop l e . . . k i nd o f being . . sepa ra ted , t hey d i d n 1 t boow

eac h o t her l i ke t hey u sed to when t hey were i n the J o sep h Aven ue area i n t he

g het to t hin g . l t 1 s ve ry i n teres ting . B u t , came to Roc he s te r i n 1 900 , i n

Ma r c h, and I remember J o sep h Avenue f rom t hat per i od . Tha t wa s rea l l y a ve ry

exci t i ng t i me . Of co u r s e , I was on l y a l i t t l e k i d t hen when I f i r s t came .

I n te r v i ew w i t h Harry S u s k i nd

A . ( C on t i n ued ) B u t as I g o t o l de r an d g o t t o unde r s tan d mo re , I rea l ized t ha t t h i s

was rea l . . . rea l l y beau t i fu l . Becau se here we re peop l e t ha t were com i n g over

. eve ry d ay t he re we re new peop l e com i ng over f r om Eu rope . After a l l , t ho s e

t ha t came f rom R u s sia , t hey had a he l l of a t i me o f i t there . T hey c ame ove r

here , and w h i l e t he i r econom i c cond i t i on was j u s t as bad in t he beg i n n i ng , a t

l ea s t t hey had p ro spec t s of i mp rov i n g t heir 1 ives . An d t hey d i d . I remember

t ha t . . . o h , a l on g abou t n i ne . . . w hen I g rad uated f rom p u b l i c s c hoo l , i t

m u s t1 ve been 1907 , I t h i n k . . . 1 907 , t ha t wo u l d have made me . . .

Q . S i x teen o r seven teen ?

A . A bo u t that . N o . 1 907 . no , it was l a ter , becau se g rad ua ted f rom p u b l ic

s c hoo l when wa s t h i r teen yea r s o l d , an d t ha t wou l d . t hir teen year s , t ha t

wou l d make i t We l l , l 9071 s w hen I g rad uated p u b l i c s c hool , and 1 911 ,

h i g h s c hoo 1 . I was abo u t a yea r a t Eas t H i g h Sc hool , 1 9 11 . Oh , I never g ra-

d uated . What ed ucat i on I g o t , I g o t a f t e r t ha t . B u t , you know , k i d s were a

l ot mo re am b i t io u s , and t hey knew i f t h ey d i d n 1 t make g ood , t hey were in rea l

t ro u b l e . W hen t he Jews f i r s t s tar ted com i ng to Roc he s ter l ong a bou t t he t i me

t ha t we came her e , a l t houg h my fat her was neve r a tai l o r , bu t a big ta i l o r i ng

ind u s t r y was he re .

Q. Yes sir .

A . And , i f a man h ad an y k i n d of a n abi l i ty a t a l l , he was . he was emp l oyed .

An d t here were a 1 o t of s u b . . . t here were e i t her t he b i g s hop s , you k now ,

l i ke M i c hae l S tern s1 we re i n bu sine s s t hen , Hic key F reeman , an d oh I can1 t

remember t hem a l l . T here were a l o t of t hem . And t hen wha t they d i d , t hey

s u b l et . T hey made t he emp l oy . t he impo r tan t t h i ng s i n t he i r s hops 1 i ke

c u t t i ng t he c l o t h and get ting t he s u i t ready t o be made , and t hen t hey wou l d

de l i ve r i t to t he . to t he ta i l o r s hop s , s ma l l s hop s , s u b-con t rac to r s , an d

t hey wo u l d f i n i s h whateve r t hey1re d o i ng . I f t hey were mak i ng coat s or ves t s,

I n terview wit h Ha r r y S u s kind

A . ( Con tin ued ) o r pa n t s , t hey were a l l in dif feren t s hop s . I n sma l l s hop s . T he

fa c t o f t he ma t ter , one of m y boyf rien d s wa s , now l on g dea d , his fa t her had a

tai l o r s hop on Su l l ivan S t reet . l t 1 s o f f o f J osep h Aven ue . T hi s side of

C l ifford Aven ue . . . one s t ree t . And , oh , t here were some some s ho p s

t ha t were s o we l l - known , you know . A n d J ew s ha ve a ha bi t o f m a y be . . t hey

find some t hing funny in ever y . . . i n ever y j o b . T here wa s one s hop on P r yor

S t reet who wa s which wa s r u n by a ma n who , he wa s a s uc ces s f u l J ew . He

had money a n d a big s hop , a n d it wa s q uite a pump kin . And , it wa s in teres ting .

God , t he kin d of s to ries t ha t wou l d come o u t of t h a t s hop . T he experiences

made· news al l over town , you know?

Q . I n t he begin nin g , l i ke in t he 120s , t he ind u s t ries ( unin te l l igib l e) c ha n g e .

A . Yes . Yes .

Q . As we l 1 a s t he J ewi s h popu l a tion i t s e l f , I

A . We l 1 , wha t hap pened wa s t ha t j u s t p rior to Wo r l d Wa r I , t hey s ta r ted unionizing

in Roc hester . And t hen t he s t r ug g l e came on . And when t he wa ges g o t to a

poin t where t hey were wo r se t ha n t hey we re in , you know , wo r se a s fa r a s t he

own er s we re con cer ned a n o t he r c i ty , t hey go to a n o t he r cit y . An d t ha t 1 s

why t hi s town wa s we l 1 known fo r tai l o ring .

t he re among t he l ea de r s .

Q . I t wa s a maj or . .

t hink t his wa s . . . rig h t u p

A . A n d t he J ews , mo re o r l es s , s t a r ted d rif ting awa y f r om tai l o r in g . T heir

c hi l d ren s ta r ted g rowing u p . Boy s we re . . . gir l s t ha t we re . . g ra d u a t l ng

f rom s c hool . They were comin g o u t of co l l ege l awyer s , doc to r s . T he o l d fo l k s

cou 1 d n 1 t . cou l d n 1 t have t hei r c hi l d ren a s hamed of t hem . So , t he fi r s t

t hing t hey did wa s s ta r t moving to ha ve a new . a n d ou t Mon roe Aven ue .

I t wa s a s t r a nge t hing t ha t t here were a l ot o f J ewi s h bui l de r s t ha t deve l oped

a bou t t h a t time . An d they fo l lowed t he t rend . T hey s ta r ted bui l ding a round

I n te rv i ew with Ha r ry S u s k i n d

A . ( Con t i n ued ) Pa r k Aven ue , Mon roe Aven ue . I wou l d s a y t h a t n i ne ty percen t o f

t he p rope r ty t ha t wa s bui l t up a round Pa r k Aven ue between E a s t Aven ue a n d

Mon roe Aven ue , I wou l d s a y . . . t he re 1 s n o w�y of t e l l i n g exac t l y , bu t i t

seem s to me t ha t a l l t he p roper ty wa s bein g bu i l t by J ew i s h bu i l der s .

Q . I ta ke i t t here wa s n 1 t a n y pohibi t i on s o r res t r i c t i on s a g a i n s t J ews mov i ng

i n to t hose ne i g h bo r hood s?

A. Oh , t he're wa s no p u b l i c res t r i c t i on s , but t here wa s a l ot o f . we l l ,

t he re wa s a boyc o t t on t he J ew s i n many a rea s i n Roc hes te r . For i n s ta nce ,

B rown c rof t wa s a n a n t i . t hey wou l d n 1 t ren t o r s e l l . Mo s t of the p roper ty

wa s said to J ew s . I t wa s a res t r i c ted a rea . T he f a c t o f t he ma t ter i s t here

wa s a rest r i c ted a rea a t t he end of th i s s t reet ca l l ed Meadowbroo k .

Q . Mea dowbrook . Yes , l 1ve hea rd at t ha t . T ha t wa s on l y i n t he 1950 s when

A. Tha t1 s r i g ht . T h a t 1 s r i g h t .

Q . Have you been a s soc i a ted w i t h t he Bayden S t reet Set t l emen t fo r a l mo s t .

A . We l l , p r a c t i ca l l y s i n ce Wo r l d Wa r we l l , m u c h befo re Wo r l d Wa r I,

wa s . . . I got i n t here ju s t a bo u t i n t he l a te 1 25 . . . t he 1 20 s , o r t he

very ea r l y 1 30s . An d l 1 ve been i n i t ever s i nc e .

Q . You i v e seen a 1 1 t he c ha n ges . .

A . Hu h?

Q. You1 ve seen a l l t he c ha n ges .

A . Oh , l 1 ve seen t hem a l l . Yes . Yes . l 1 ve s een t hem a l l . Bec a u se 1 1 ve been

c i v i c m i nded a l l my 1 i fe , a nd a n d a t f i r s t , wa s very . . . very con -

cer ned a bo u t wha t 1 s hap pen i ng to t he b l a c k peop l e i n Roc hes ter a s t hey . . .

a s t hey em i g ra ted here . And I ven t u re to say t ha t I p roba b l y ha d a s m u c h to

do w i t h wha t wen t on i n t ha t re l a t i on s h i p between Jew and b l a c k . And b l a c k s

i n rel a t i on t o h i s econom i c 1 i fe a n d h i s soc i a l 1 i fe . So , i n t ha t I t a ke a

g rea t dea l of p r i de , beca u se l 1 ve . . . I t houg h t I recog n i zed t he s i t ua t i on

I n terv i ew w i t h Ha r r y Su s k i n d

A . ( Con t i n ued ) muc h ea rl i e r t ha n many o t he r peo p l ,e . T he fa c t o f t he ma t te r i s ,

i f yo u ' l l n o t i ce t ha t we ' re i n t he l i v i ng room . go t a p l a q ue f rom t he

U n i ve r s i ty o f Roc hes ter for h a v i ng hav i ng con t r i b u ted a l o t towa rd

deve l op i ng p u b l i c hou s�ng i n Roc he s ter . T he re had been an o r g a n i za t i on c a l l ed

Rochester Hou s i n g A s soc i a t i on , Pu b l i c Hou s i n g A s s ocia t i on . I ' m no t s u re if

I ' ve g o t t he n a me r i g ht . M r s . S i b l ey wa s a mem ber of t ha t . t hat g roup a n d

a l o t of o t he r p r om i nent peop l e , mos t l y yo ung peop l e , a n d t hey h a d been t r y i n g

to get Roc he s t e r i n t eres ted i n p u b l i c ho u s i ng . Roc he s te r i s one of t he l a s t

to pu t an y effo r t i n t ha t d i rec t i on .

Q . The Ha n ove r Hou ses a re t he f i r s t t h i ng t ha t come to my m i nd , a n d i s t ha t t he

same p rojec t ?

A . T h a t; s wha t g o t t he p l a q ue fo r . I ( un i n te l l i g i b l e) wa s a t t h a t t i me t he

d i rec tor o f t he set t l emen t , a n d I wo r ked ve ry c l ose l y w i t h h i m to get t h i s

accomp l i s hed . And I ' l l tei l you , if I . T hat wo u l d be a s to ry i n i t s e l f

to . . . to . . . how t ha t wa s a c comp l i s hed . I n t he f i r s t p l a c e , t he

t he a dm i n i s t ra t i on s i n Roches ter ha ve a l wa ys been rep u b l i ca n , u p to t h a t

t i me , i t wa s a rep u b l lea n c i ty . And i t was d u r i ng t he t i me when . . . t he

a dm i n i s t ra t i on was a t t ha t t i me . . we l l , a n y how , t he fede ra l governmen t was

get t i ng i n to i t . I .

Roos eve l t ' s adm i n i s t rat i on .

t h i n k i t was d u r i n g t h e t i me o f F ra n k l i n De l a n o re

And t hey had a r r anged . . . t hey had a set - up

fo r g r a n t i n g l oa n s , c rea t i n g t he pos s i b i l i t y o f p u b l i c hou s i ng deve l opmen t ,

a n d we we re i n t h i s t h i ng r i g h t u p to ou r n ec k s . We f i na l l y go t t he cou n se l ,

t he Roc hest er C i ty Cou n se l t o a g ree to bu i l d a p rojec t , wh i c h wa s ve ry good ,

bu t I w i s hed t hey h a d n ' t . T he rea son for i t i s t h i s: Be i ng a rep u b l i ca n

a dm i n i s t ra t i on , a n d s ho r t l y after t he fede ra l g overnmen t had come o n rec o rd

fo r p u b l i c ho u s i n g a n d had p rov i ded mon i es f o r i t , the s ta te d i d t he same t h i n g

. p rov i d ed f o r p u bl i c ho�s i n g . Bu t t hey had . t hey had s t r i n g s at t a c hed

I n terv i ew w i t h Ha r ry S u s k i nd Page I 0

A . ( Con t i nued ) to t he i r p rog ram w herea s t he fede ra l governmen t wa s muc h mo re

b roader a n d l es s l i m i ted . I n o t he r wor d s , you cou l d . . . you c o u l d bu i l d

t he k i n d of hous i ng t ha t t he a rea req u i red u nder the fede r a l p rog ram , b u t you

co u l d n ' t d o t h a t w i t h t he s ta t e . T he s tate had mo re r i g i d res t r i c t i o n s . A t

t ha t t i me , t he Sta te o f New Yo r k wa s democ ra t i c .

Q . Governo r Ha r r i ma n?

A . H u h?

Q. I s t ha t w i t h Gove rnor Ha r riman? No . No .

A . Wa i t a m i n u te , we l l , who wa s i t ?

Q. B u t t he s ta te wa s demo c r a tic , a nd Roc hes ter wa s rep u b l lea n?

A. T h a t 1 s r i g h t . I d on 1 t remem ber

Rockefe l ler . When d i d he f i r s t

Q . d on ' t know .

I t h i n k i t wa s Ne 1 son . . . Ne 1 son

w hen wa s h i s f i r s t a dm i n i s t ra t i on ?

A . t h i n k i t wa s Ne l son Roc ke fe l l e r , bec a u s e he too , pa s sed d own a s a 1 i bera l .

T ha t ' s why some o f t hese l aw s were p a s sed . And t he S t a t e of New Y o r k wa s ,

I t h i n k . . . t h i n k i t wa s rep u b l i ca n . The s ta te wa s rep u b l lea n a n d t he

c i ty wa s rep u b l lea n , a n d t he c i ty fe l t t h a t t hey wou l d be dis l oya l to t he

rep u b l lean p a r t y i f t hey d i d n 1 t ta ke t he J oa n f rom . . f rom a l 1 o f t hem .

. T h a t wa s t he wo r s t t h i ng t ha t cou l d ha ve ha p pened to p u b l i c hou s i n g i n

Roc hes ter .

Q . Wha t were t he p r o b l em s?

A . T he re were n o res t r i c t i on s on t he fede r a l money , t ha t i s , very 1 i m i ted re�

s t r i ct i on s . B u t on t he s t a t e money , t here were r i g i d res t r i c t i o n s . I f I

remem ber c o r rec t l y , t he fo rm u l a wa s t ha t a cer t a i n . .

co s t of t he l an d a c qu i s i t i on . . . i t ' s a c r a zy set - up

depend i n g on t he

. . wou l d determ i ne

t he n um be r of peop l e t h a t had to be a ccommoda ted on t ha t s i te .

Q . S o , on t he ba s i s of t he c o s t o f t he l a n d .

A . T ha t 1 s r i g h t . And t h i s wa s a very t h i c kly pop ula ted area down t here i n t he

I n terv i ew w i t h Har ry S u s k i n d Page I I

A . (Con t i n ued ) e i g h t h wa rd . You know, t he peo p l e we re I i v i ng i n very c on f i ned

q uar ters and p rope r ty was b r i ng i ng i n , at t hat pa r t i c u l ar t i me , a s u b s tan t i a l

re t u r n to t he owner s . So nat u ra l l y t he l and acqu i s i t i on co s t was h i g h .

don 1 t remem ber exac t l y what i t was , b u t t ha t 1 s a mat ter o f a reco rd , b u t i t

was very h i g h . The resu l t i s t ha t we had t o p u t u p h i g h- r i ses fo r a c i ty

t hat n ever ha d i t . Neve r had t a l l bu i l d i n g s fo r res i den t s . Here t hey 1 re l et

t i ng i n a l o t o f b l ac k peop l e who , a t t hat t i me , had very l i t t l e exper i ence

w i t h e l evato r s , and a l l t hat s o r t o f t h i ng . I t wa s a mes s . Seven - s t ory

bu i l d i ng w i t h a l ot of l i t t l e k i d s i n i t , i s a bou t a s sane as . . . I t was a

c razy hou se . And t ha t set bac k Roc hes ter p u b� i c ho u s i n g fo r many years . And

i t wa s a d i sas te r .

Q . The re 1 s a p r oj ec t r i g h t ac r o s s f rom Bayden S t reet .

A . T hat i s C hatam Ga rden s . T he re was . . . i s a gar den type . . . T he fac t o f

t he ma t te r i s t hat a l l o f t he hou s i ng t ha t 1 s down t here now , an d t hey p u t a

Jo t o f t h i s i s t h ro u g h t he Mod e l C i t i e s P rog ram , t hey 1 re a l l two

s t o ry hou se s , t he ga rden type, and a re very we l l accep ted , and a re p rov i n g

s ucces s f u l . B u t . . . Hanover Hou se s was a rea l d i sas ter .

Q . T here wa s an at temp t to have t hem i n teg rated , too , I be l i eve .

A . . Yes .

Q . T here was a ce r ta i n q uo ta .

A . I n t he beg i n n i ng t here were . . . t he re were a few wh i tes t he re . And , t o a

ce r ta i n ex ten t , t he fau l t I i e s a l so w i t h t he wh i tes t hat . . . t hat d i d n 1 t wan t

to be re l ated i n any way to t he b l ac k s . The fa c t o f t he ma t te r i s t hat t h i s

set t l emen t was o r i g i na l l y s ta rted by J ew i s h women . Now t hat goe s bac k to t he

ear l y p ar t o f t he cen t u ry .

Q . Yes . One o f i t s maj o r p u r po ses was , 1 i ke , t o . . .

A . To make Amer i can s o u t of fo re i g n . fore i g n peop l e . And mo s t of t he peop l e

I n terv i ew w i t h Har r y S usk i nd Page 1 2

A . ( C on t i n ued) t hat were com i n g i n a t t hat t i me , were J ews . An d t hey t ook a

l o t of t hese J ew i sh g i r l s and young boys , and men . . young men , and tau g h t

t hem t he l ang uage . O u r ed u ca t i onal system had n ' t been deve l oped as g reatly

as i t i s now. Ta l k a bo u t t he ear l y pa r t of t he cen t u r y .

Q . P u b l i c sc hoo l s we re t he excep t i on a l most .

A . S u re . wen t t o p u b l i c sc hoo l

nas i um . We d i d n ' t have , we l l ,

. . we d i d n ' t . . . we d i d n ' t have a g ym

s t o p to see what t he k i ds ' get n ow .

what we had , my gosh ! There ' s a t remen d o us d i f fe ren ce . An yhow , t h ese peop l e

came over f rom E u rope , t hey had to l ea r n how to ta l k t he l an g uage , an d t hey

had to know how to cond u c t t hemse l ves , g e t t i ng ready for jobs . B u t t hose

d ays are . . . a man . . . a man was a ta i l o r o r a . . . t hey used to have i t

b r o ken down . Some were p oc ke t - ma kers , some we re p resse rs , some were 1 i n i ng

p u t l i n i n gs i n , i t was a l l b r o ken d own i n to to . . . you know , sma l l

sma l l areas o f . . And , t hey ta l k a bou t p u t t i ng t he t h i ng i n to t he

s l ot , .an d do t ha t a l l day long . T hat's what t hey d o i ng , see? B u t t hey ha d to

l earn how t o get a l ong i n t h i s coun t ry .

Q . T hat was one o f t he p u r p oses o f Bayden S t ree t

A . Of t he set t l emen t . T here we re some p u b l i c sp i r i ted women , most l y J ew i sh , a l

t houg h t here were a few non - Jews . M r s . Ca rson was . . . M r s . Ga rson , Garson

. . . was o n e of t hem . T hey were i n t he c l ot h i ng bus i ness an d t he re was

M r s . W i l d , s he ' s dead a l o ng t i me . And t he re ' s . a 1 1 t he W i 1 d s . A 1 1

peop l e . . . most of t he peop l e were i n t he c l ot h i ng bus i ness . T hey star ted

t he set t l emen t an d su p p o r ted i t t hemse l ves . T here were n o p u b! i c funds at t hat

t i me . There was no Commu n i ty C hest . There was no t h i ng . I t ' s on l y peop l e who

fel t t he need , wan ted to d o some t h i n g a bou t i t , and t hey d i d i t . Of cou rse ,

now , t he set t l emen t has a . . . has a budget of we l l ove r $600 , 000 . 00 a yea r .

And t he b l ac ks who a re r u n n i n g i t have g o t t hemse l ves so we l l -o rgan i zed and

I n te rv iew w i t h Ha r ry S u s k i n d Page 1 3

A. ( C on t i n ued ) bu reau c ra t i c, i t ' s n o t t he same i n s t i t u t i on t ha t . . T he

p u rposes and eve ry t h i n g e l se a re d i f fe ren t . Beca u s e here yo u ' re t r y i n g t o make

Ame r i ca n s i n t o bet t e r Ame r i ca n s . T here we were tak i n g . . . tak i ng Ru s s i an

young peop l e and ma k i ng t hem Ame r i ca n s . T here ' s a ser i o u s b i t o f d i f fe rence

t he re .

Q . Yes . Was n ' t t here a so r t o f a d i s p u te a bo u t who wou l d be t he d i rec t o r , 1 i ke,

t h i s i s abou t maybe t en yea r s a g o t h a t ?

A . Who wou l d be t he d i rec t o r ?

Q . Yes . L i ke, t here s hou l d be a b l a c k d i rec t o r a s oppo s ed t o a J ew i s h d i rec t o r

rega r d l es s o f t he i r . . . ?

A . No, t ha t never came up a s a n i s s ue . Wel l , I ' l l you . Those J ew s t hat were i n

vo l ved w i t h set t l emen t wo r k, 1 i ke m y s e l f, who came he re befo re b l ac k s t ook

over, we fe l t t ha t i t s ho u l d n ' t be ba sed on co l o r . We were hopef u l t ha t i t

wo u l d be in teg ra t ed a n d t he re wou l d be wh i tes t here, b u t t he w h i tes wou l d n ' t

come . And t hey f i na l l y t he b l a c ks took ove r . Pra c t i ca l l y l oc k, s toc k,

and ba r re l . T he . . . t he s ta f f i s b l ac k, a n d t he . . . a n d t he d i rec t o r i s

b l ac k . And t he on l y rea son I bel ong, s t i l l ha ve s tayed on t he board and been

i n s t r umen ta l i n keep i ng o t he r s on t h a t boa rd, and u s i n g my i n f l uen ce t o see

.that t ha t board s ho u l d n o t go comp l e tely b l a c k .

Q . Then i t wou l d s t i l l rep resen t a commu n i t y . . .

A . T hat ' s r i g ht . We s t i l l hope t ha t we get t he P ue r to R i can s i n , t he Span i s h

speak i n g peo p l e, a nd t ha t so r t o f t h i ng .

Q. You men t i oned ea r l i e r t ha t a s t he J ew i s h C ommun i t y d r i fted out rap i d l y f rom

t he J os e p h Aven ue, as a res i den t i a l a rea, t hey became rea l l y d i s pe r s ed .

A . Very few J ews I i ve down i n t ha t area now . Ma y be a few o l d t i mer s . Peop l e t hat

were too o I d to move rea I I y . .

Q. What c hanges do you rec a l l i n comm u n a l 1 i fe o r, 1 i ke , t he o l d J Y wa s t here . . .

I n terv i ew w i t h Ha r ry S u s k i nd Page 1 4

A . T o beg i n w i t h , as I sa i d , t he c h i l d ren s ta r t ed mak i ng p rog re s s , econom i ca l J y ,

soc i a l J y . The o l d pa ren ts s t i l l ed J i ved i n t he o l d area s , bu t a l o t o f t hem

d i ed o f f , an d a J o t o f t hem fe l t t ha t t he i r c h i l dren were as hamed of t hem

J i v i n g i n t he s l um s , and a J o t o f the c h i l d ren wan ted to get t hem o u t o f i t .

And i t was becom i ng m o re and mo re an u n safe p l ace to J i ve . An d t hey we re

f r i g h tened .

Q . We l l , wit h t he d i s pe r s i on o f t he who l e comm un i ty , I mean , d i d t he cong reg at i on s

take u p i n t he s l ac k ?

A . T hat wa s a p ro b J em . Yo u kn6w , I don 1 t know how many synagog ues t he re were

at t he t i me t ha t we ' re speak i ng of when t hey d i s per s ed , t here m u s t have been

around J o sep h Aven ue , O rmand S t reet , HanoVe r S t reet , t here m u s t have been

twen ty- f i ve synagog ues . Nea r l y t hat . They we re en d l es� you know? The re were,

I t h i n k , i n one s p o t on Hanover S t reet , I t h i n k . . . n o t i n one s po t , i n one

s ma l l area , t here were s i x s ynagog ues . We l l now, some nf t hem h� ve s u rv i ved

and have go t ten o u t i n t o d i f fe ren t a rea s of . . . Temp l e Bet h E J , wh i c h was

n eve r d own i n t he s l um a rea.

Q . That was on Par k Aven ue .

A . I t was on Pa r k Aven ue , yeah . And t hat took ove r , becau se a J o t o f J ews had

.moved ove r to Pa r k Aven ue . T ha t was t he new s hu ! , see? And t hen i t bu rned

d own some yea r s l ater , and t hey bu i It ou t on W i n ton Road . And t he re ' s a

s hu ! t hat my fat he r be l on ged to , i t was ca l l ed t he Bet h Amend r i s h ( s p e l l i ng ? )

and t ha t was on Hanover S t reet . And t hat was a l a rge , l a rge synago g ue . T hat

was a . . . not a Refo rmed no r C on servat i ve . T hat was a rea l O r t hod ox s hu ! .

The fac t of t he mat te r i s i t wa s t he on l y synagogue i n Roc hes ter t hat l oo ked

J i ke a s ynagogue. A n d i t was l arge . H ad a l a rge cong regat i on . And i t was a

rea I 1 y a n i ce p l ac e . And there were a J o t of sma l l ones a l l a round u s ,

you know. On Hanover S t ree t t h ree or four of t hem . On J o seph Aven ue . . .

I n te rview wit h Harry S u s kind

A . ( Con tin ued ) B u t t hey a l l fina l l y pas sed by t he boa r d . A l o t o f t hem were

taken ove r by Mode l Citie s or paid o u t some money , an d we re ab l e to s ta r t

where t hey f e l t t h ey were mo s t needed .

Q. I t seem s 1 ike t he who l e

had to c hange if

. . t he who l e s t r u c t u re o f , 1 ike , Jewis h ed ucation

A. Yes . Of cou r se , t here are . . . w hen . . . bac k in t he ear l y 1900 s , mos t o f

t he J ew s were eit her O r t ho dox , bu t some b r o ke away f r om O r t hodox . T hey had

. and s ta r ted a Temp l e B'r i t h Kodes h , wh i c h was at that time on Gi b b

S t reet . Fir s t i t s ta r ted on Fron t S t reet .

Q. Which is n o l onger t here.

A . No . Beca u se i t was a s t reet r u n ning a l ong side t he rive r , and was flooded

eve ry yea r . A t t hen t hey wen t to Gibb S t reet a n d that was t he on l y

synagogue, Refo rmed s yn agog ue . T hen afterward s t he b read down was a 1 it t l e

bit mo re refined . T hey've got Con s ervative , who d on't be l ieve in some t hing s

bu t d o be l ieve in o t he r t hing s . Of cou r se , t here ' s s ti l l t he O r t hodox , whic h

I t hin k ha s taken a beating . T here aren ' t t hat man y peo p l e who a re O r t hodox

and even t ho se t ha t are O r t hodox , are no l onger ac t ua l l y O r t hod ox . T hey ' ve

made conces sion s and s uc h .

Q. I t' s been 1 i ke a genera l s tatem�n t t ha t bo t h Refo rmed and Con serva t ive g ro up s

are d rif ting c l o s er toget he r . Do you t hin k t hat's . ?

A . That i s t r ue . A t t he p re sen t t ime , t ha t is t r ue . B u t t ha t' s why I d on ' t go

to eit he r one . ( Lau g h ter ) d on ' t wan t to get mixed u p .

Q. When yo u r fami l y came here , you r fat her wa s a s sociat�wi t h an O r t hodox cong re

gatio n ?

A . My father ac t ua 1 1 y was a 1 i bera 1 . . . h e was very 1 i bera 1 . A f ter some yea r s ,

my mo t he r con vinced my fat her t hat he wa s doing the wrong t hing , because he

wan ted . . . vie l l , p r o ba b l y econ omic condition s were bet ter . T he . . . t he

I n te rv i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i nd

A . ( Con t i n ued ) O r t hodox a re rea l l y t he rea l poores t J ew s of a l l .

Q. And t hose were t he ( u n i n te l l i g i b l e ) Ea s tern Eu ropea n exper i en ce t ha t s ta yed

in t hem . ?

A . Yea h . Po l i s h a n d L i t hua n i a n . M y fa t he r wa s a L i t hu a n i a n .

Q . I remember s pea k i ng w i t h you r w i fe , s he s a i d t ha t s he came f rom B a t a v i a .

A . We l l , she wa s bo rn . . . s he wa s born i n P h i l a d e l p h i a , a n d t hen w hen s he wa s

ve ry yo un g , t hey wen t t o 1 i ve i n B a t a v i a . And t hen t hey moved to Roche s ter .

Q. And you bo t h ha ve I i ved here , mo re o r l e s s perma nen t l y , s i n ce . . . s i nc e

y o u were ma r r i ed ?

A . My fam i l y ?

Q. Yes .

A . Oh , m y fa m i l y 1 i ved i n t he . . . t hey never moved awa y f rom t he per i p he r y o f

t he g he t to a rea . T hey l i ved on G ra n t S t ree t , b u t bo t h my fa t he r a n d mo t he r

d i ed wh i l e t hey we re s t i l l 1 iv i ng t here . Tha t wa s 1937 a n d 1940 . M y fa t her

d i ed f i r s t .

Q. An d you moved he re?

A. We l l , wa s ma r r i ed l ong before . T hey 1 i ved on G ra n t S t ree t . I wa s ma r ried

I wa s ma r r i ed i n n i ne teen hund red an d seven teen . And t hey were s t i l l

.1 i v i n g on . . . t hey were 1 i v i n g o f f of J o sep h Aven ue , W i l k i n s S t reet I t h i n k

i t wa s . T hen t hey moved to G ra n t S t reet .

Q . I t h i n k I remem ber see i n g t h a t s t ree t .

A . B u t I never 1 i ved w i t h t hem on G r a n t S t reet .

Q . Yes , I t h i n k you r w i fe men t i oned t ha t you moved he re a bo u t twen t y yea r s a g o ?

A . I n t h i s p l ace?

Q . Yes .

A . I g ue s s i t1 s a l l of t ha t . B u t we l i ved . . . we l i ved i n o t her p l a ce s sioce

we 1 i ved on t he per i p he r y . Ac t ua l l y , t he f i r s t hou se we l i ved i n wa s d u r i ng

In t e rv i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i nd Page 1 7

A . ( Con t i n u ed ) t he f l u ep i d em i c . We 1 i ved o n Nor ton S t ree t . F rom No r t on S t reet

we wen t to Ha r r i s S t reet . F rom Ha r r i s S t reet we moved to t he t en t h wa r d . We

1 i ved on Ra n g e Pa r k . Then we l i ved on R i ve r s i de S t r ee t . You k now , i t wa s a

l on g p e r i od o f t i me . On R i ve r s i de S t reet , we 1 i ved i n two d i f f e r en t h o u s e s on

R i ve r s i de S t r ee t . A n d f rom R i ve r sid e S t reet we moved t o a n a pa r tm e n t h o u s e

o f f o f Sou t h Ave n ue , up t he re whe re t h e hosp i ta 1 i s .

where i t i s .

Q . Nea r H y l a n d Hosp i ta l ?

I don 1 t know i f you know

A . Yea h . An d f rom t he r e No , I s k i p ped o n e p l a c e . F rom R i ve r s i d e S t r e et

we mo ved to Ea s t Aven u e . h a d . . . I had � n a p a r tmen t hou s e t h e r e . And

my w i fe d i d n 1 t 1 i ke i t t he re , s o we so l d t ha t , and t h en we moved to an a p a r t

men t on Sou t h Ave n u e , a n d t h e n f rom Sou t h Aven ue we moved he re. So we n ev e r

rea l l y 1 i ve d i n t h e s l um a re a a t a n y t i me . And t ha t 1 s wha t I m e a n when I

s a y t hey we re a l l s p read i ng o u t .

Q. Ye s . J u s t l i ke yo u mov i n g . . .

A . T h a t 1 s r i g ht . And t h e s t ra i g h t a n d f l a t a bo u t i t i s t ha t i t d i d n 1 t t a ke too

l on g a pe r i od of t i me . We 1 re on l y t a l k i n g a bo u t a p e r i od , a n d t ha t;s why

say t he mo s t i n t e r e s t i n g p a r t of t he J ew i s h h i s t o ry i n Roc he s t e r , I t h i n k

too k p l ace be tween 1 900 a n d 1 925.

Q. T h a t 1 s w i t h t he i mm i g ra n t s a nd t he

A . And i n t e r e s ting l y enoug h , t he r e wa s a . . f i r s t . . . f i r s t t he J ew s came

to Roc he s t e r . T hey we r e t he b u l k of the i mm i g ra n t s . No , we l 1 , f i r s t we re t he

G e rm a n - J ews . T hey s t a r ted t hese c l o t h i ng fac to r i e s , mo s t l y . T he n came t he

i n f l ux o f J ews f rom R u s s i a , Po l an d , a n d they we r e t hey were t he J ews t h a t

became t h e emp l oyees of t h e r i c h G e rma n - J ews , you see . On c e t hey s ta r t ed

s p rea d i n g o u t , t he lta l i a n s t oo k ove r . B e c a u s e t he r e a re a l o t o f I ta l i a n

ta i l o r s a n d t he r e wa s a p e r i od o f t ha t . And t hen t he l ta l i a n s wen t t h roug h

I n t e rv i ew w i t h Ha r ry S u s k i nd

A . ( C on t i n ued ) t he same p roce s s . You l ook a round , yo u g o t mo r e I ta l i a n l a wye r s

a n d . . T hey took ove r a n d t he same t h i ng happened . There a re ve ry few

I ta] ian ta i l o rs now. T he n t hey became t he r e we r e some Po l e s t ha t

got i n t o t a i l o r i n g , b u t n o t too ma n y . And now I g u e s s t h e re a re a l ot of

b l a c k s t ha t a re i n to t he ta i l o r i n g i nd u s t r y . There ma y be some lta l i a n s yet ,

I t h i n k t he r e a r e . B u t a c t ua l l y t he rea l . . t he rea l econom i c c ha ng e s ,

we r e made d u r i n g t he I t a l i a n . . You see , i t wa s ha rd for a J ew to buck

another J ew . The other J ew wa s t he bo s s . Bu t t he I ta l i a n s came i n at t h e

t i me of a d i f f e re n t r e l a t i on s h i p . And t he y we r e p e r h a p s a l i t t l e mo re d yn a m i c .

They ca u s ed . . . t he y a l l owed t he Ama l gama ted C l o t h i n g Wo r k e r s s t a r t ed w i t h

a J ew i sh b�c ku p , b u t I t h i n k t he l t a l i a n s rea l l y ma d e I t a r ea l fun c t i ona l

ope r a t i on .

Q . Beca u s e t hey we r e i n oppos i t i on to t he managemen t on . . . t hey we r e e n t i re l y

d i f fe r en t on a l l l eve l s .

A . We l l , i f I covered ve r y muc h for yo u , I don 1 t know.

Q. Yes . Yes yo u have , and I . .

A . Have I to l d you a n y t h i ng t ha t yo u d i d n 1 t a l read y kn ow?

Q . We l l , i t wa s p a r t i c u l a r l y i n t e r e s t i ng a bo u t t he c ha n g e s i n Ba yden S t reet .

You know, how i t wa s o r i g i na l l y . . . l e t me j u s t s t op t h i s o r t u rn i t ove r

now.

END OF TAPE I , S I D E I, I NT E RV I EW I

I n te r v i ew w i t h HARRY �U S K I ND Aug u s t 5, 1976 By M. F r i ed r i c h

Tape I I S i de I I n te rv i ew I I

Q.

A . H u h?

to t hat p e r i od a t a l l .

Q. I forgo t te n t he date o f today .

I ' ve fo rgo t te n t he date o f today .

A . Today ' s da te i s the 4 t h , I t h i n k i s . . . o r 5 t h . May be t he 5 t h .

Q. Ye s .

Pag e 19

A. I g o t the . . . t h i s i .s t he New Yo r k T i me s o f Aug u s t the 2nd. Now A ug u s t t he

s econd was Monday . Today 1 s T h u r s day .

Q. Thu r sday .

A . F i f t h .

Q. F i f t h . R i g h t . Today i s A ug u s t 5 t h , I ' m i n te r v i ew i n g Har r y S u s k i nd i n h i s

home . Now yo u men t i oned abo u t that

1925 wi t ho u t .

A. W i t hou t go i ng bac k.

Q. Yes .

. t ha t yo u rea l l y can ' t u n d e r s tand

A. And t he i n te r e s t i ng par t , o f cou r s e , I t h i n k was a l 1 . . . a l 1 wa s p r i o r to

1925 . t h i n k 1925 was aft e r Wo r l d Wa r I , and t ha t peop l e had s ta r ted to

d i s pe rse f rom t he g he t to area. They we re s tar t i ng to . . . i n o t he r wo rd s ,

t he re was may be one o r two g ene rat i on s gap. And when t hey f i rs t s ta r te d com i ng

to Roc he s te r , u n t i l 1925 , a t l eas t two gene rat i o n s . By that t i me , some of the

c h i l d r en had . . . had ·be t te r educat i on s , t hey we re a l read y l awye r s and d oc to r s

t ha t we re J ew i s h . And g radua l l y , t he o l de r peop l e we re be i ng . . by v i r t ue

o f t he fac t t ha t t he ch i l d ren we re mov i n g , the o l d e r peop l e mo ved to f rom t he

area down a ro und Jo seph Ave nue. So by t hat t i me , i t wa s as a cen te r po i n t fo r

J ew i s h . . J ew i s h ope rat i o n s had p r e t t y much pas s ed. The re we re some b u s i -

In te rv i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i nd

A . (C on t i nued ) ne s s . J ew i s h b u s i ne s s o u t p l a c e s ope ra t i ng a rou nd . . . i n

t he g he t to a rea , but t hey depended to a g rea t ex ten t o n J ew i s h bu s i n e s s t ha t

came f rom a round Pa r k Ave n ue , a nd down I rondequo i t , a nd Ea s t Ave n u e , Mon roe

Avenue . And , i n fac t , by t h e l a te ' 20 s , I t h i n k , some of t he J o sep h Ave nue

b u s i ne s s had s ta r ted to .

Ave n ue sec t i o n .

go ove r to t h e Mon roe Ave n u e s ec t i on , Pa r k

Q. A l ready b y t he l a te '20 s .

A . Yea h . Yea h . A l t hough J o s e p h Ave n ue wa s a b u s i ne s s s t r e e t u p u n t i 1 . . . a n d

d i d we l l , a l t houg h � t a l e s se r a nd l e s se r s c a l e , u n t i l the r i o t i ng o f 1964 .

Q. A n d t ha t ' s de f i n i te l y a p o i n t t ha t

A . Oh , t hen . t he n t he re wa s no .

you know, i t ' s ove r w i t h .

. t h a t eve r y t h i n g c ha nged r a p i d l y?

i t wa s done . Ac ro s s t he room k i nd ,

Q. Ye s . Yes s i r . You men t i oned t h a t you we re a s soc i a te d w i th t he Wo r kme n s '

C i rc l e .

A . No t me . My fa t he r .

Q. You r fa t he r?

A . My fa t he r . n eve r be l onged to \Jo rkmen s ' C i rc l e . And , my fa t he r wa s a membe r .

I t h i n k he wa s a membe r u n t i l he pa s s ed awa y i n 1937 .

Q . . G iven t he c l o t h i ng i nd u s t ry h e r e a n d t he fa c t t h a t ma n y J ew i s h ta i l o r s we re

i nvo l ved i n p i ece wo r k and i n t he fa c to r i e s a nd the fa c to ry s y s tem . .

A . Yea h . Yea h . And t he re we r e a l o t o f . . .

Q.

A .

t he u n i o n moveme n t s . . .

s u b s u bcon t ra c to r s . s u bcon t ra c to r s we re a) 1 ove r t he s eve n t h

a nd eig h t h wa rd . The re we re l o t s o f t hem , ta i l o r s hop s i n bac k o f re s i d e n t i a l

p ro pe r ty . And t he n t he l a rge s ho p s t he l a r g e ma n u fa c t u r e r s wou l d we l l ,

o n e s hop wo u l d be known fo r pe r ha p s pa n t s s hop , ve s t s s hop s , a n d f i n i s h i ng s hop s .

The y ' d g e t t he roug h , you know, t he coa t s t ha t wo u l d . . . a l l c u t . And a l l

I n te r v i ew w i t h HB r ry S u s k i nd

A . ( Con t i n ued ) t hey had t o do wa s s ew t hem tog e t he r a c t ua l l y . T hey we re so r t of

a f i n i s h i ng ope ra t i on . B u t t hey we r e sca t te red a l 1 ove r t he a rea .

Q . When t he u n i on moveme n t , t he Ama l g amated C l o t h i ng Wo r ke r s 1

A. Yea h . Then t he r e wa s . . . t hey cou l dn 1 t s ta nd u p t o t h a t s i t ua t i on . T he fac t

o f t he ma t te r , Yumen

Q. I s t h i s So l Yume n?

A . No t So l Yume n . Ke l l e r, Yumen and Thomp son fo rmed a compBny . T he y we r e a i l

o r i gln�l l y sma l l e r f a c to r i e s d o i ng a p a r t of t he wo r k . I don 1 t know .

don 1 t remembe r now wha t . . . Ke l l e r , h i s n a me was Ke l l e r . One o f t he p a r t n e r s ,

i t wa s n 1 t So l Yume n , e i t he r T hom p so n o r � l l e� When t he s t r i ke wa s on , a g i r l

wa s s ho t . . . l e t 1 s see wha t s t r e e t t ha t wa s a g a i n . . . Ac t u a l l y i t wa s a

1 i t t l e b i t o u t s i de of t he J ew i s h a rea . knew he r s t r ee t wa s down nea r t he

J o sep h . n e a r No r t h S t re e t . S he wa s s ho t d u r i ng a d emo n s t ra t i on , you know .

And , o f cou r se , t hen t he s ma l l e r s ho p s a l l foid ed . And t he wo r k wa s p re t ty

we l l done i n a l l t he f a c to r i e s 1 i ke M i c ha e l S t e r n 1 s a n d H i ck y F r eeme n , A t l e r

B ro t he r s; t he re we re a n um be r o f we l 1 - known c l o t h i ng m a n uf a c t u re r s t h a t o p e r a ted

i n Roc he s te r . B u t t he sma l l s ho p . . . t he s u bcon t r a c to r s , t h a t wa s . . . t ha t

wa s whe n t he y s ta r ted t o dec l i ne a n d d i sap pea r i ng f rom t he scene .

Q . W i t h t he u n i on movemen t?

A . (A f f i rma t i ve r e s p o n s e ) Beca u s e you see , they . . . we l l , l e t 1 s face i t , u ndou b t

ed l y whe n t he re wa s no u n i o n , t h e s e s ho p s we re mo re o r l e s s swea t s ho p ope ra t i on s,

a nd pa i d l ow s a l a r i e s , l ow wa g e s , l owe r t ha n t h e b i gg e r s hop s d a red even d o .

And t he n t he bo s s e s u se d · to wo r k , a n d t he r e wa s no s u c h t h i ng a s a n e i g h t to

f i ve op e ra t i o n . knew o n e f am i l y b y t he name o f Cohen t ha t had a . . . one of

t h o s e s u b- s ho p s on Su l l i va n S t ree t and I knew M r . Cohen h i m se l f . An d I know

t h i s pe r sona l l y be ca u se I u sed to hang a round w i t h one of h i s so n s , Moe Cohen .

And t he r e wa s a n o t h e r o n e , A r c h i e . And , t h e re wa s no s u c h t h i ng . . . t hey 1 d

In terv i ew w i t h Ha r ry S u s k i nd

A. ( Con t i n ued ) ta ke o f f S a t u rday , bu t S u nday morn i ng s you ' d f i n d t hem i n the

s ho p , you know , wo r k i ng u n t i 1 wha teve r hou r s t hey fe l t they wa n ted to wo r k .

The he l p d i d n ' t come i n mo s t of t he t i me , bu t . . bu t mos t o f t h e t i me t he y

d i d , beca u s e a l o t of t hem , yo u see , we re re l i g i ou s J ews . T h e y d i d n ' t wa n t

to wo r k o n S a t u rd a y . The l a rg e s hops co u l d n ' t con fo rm to t ha t . S o t h i s i s

a l so a fa c to r i n d e te rm i n i ng t h i s s u bcon t ra c t i ng . B u t a s t i me wen t on a nd

t he sma l l s hop s fo l d ed , t hey a s s umed reg u la r hou r s . The b i g s ho p s a l wa y s

ha d i t , h a d reg u l a r hou r s , bu t t h e y we re con t ro l l ed more o r l e s s now b y u n i on s .

The u n i on won t he i r s t r i ke .

Q . We r e t he J ew i s h wo r ke r s i n vo l ved hea v i l y w i th t he u n i o n?

A . Oh , yea h , s u re . I t wa s l ed by the J ew i s h peop l e l i ke . . . wei l , the re wa s

S y d ne y H i l l ma n f rom New Yo r k . C ame down here 8nd he wa s . . . s tayed a l ong

t i me . And Abe Chapman who ' s s t i l l a t t he head of Ama l gama ted . The re wa s one

o f those . A n d he had a l o t of s u b- 1 i e u ten a n t s , you k now , t ha t we re .

k new a J o t . k new a l o t o f t hem . Tho u g h m a ny o f t hem a re d e a d now a nd

gone . Abe C hapman i s s t i l l a l i ve , though , I u n d e r s t a nd .

Q . D i d t he J ew i s h Commu n i t y a s a who l e s u ppo r t one po l i t i ca l p a r t y i n t he c i ty

mo re t ha n a no t he r? L i ke i n many c i t i e s

ba ckbone o f the d emoc ra t i c pa r ty .

. New Yo r k City t he y we re t he

A . I t h i n k p re t t y muc h i t wa s the same he re . Bu t s t rang ely enoug h , a s t he y g rew

i n e conom i c s ta tu re a n d be came Ame r i ca n i zed . . . the c h i l d r en became be t te r

e d u c a ted i n E ng l i s h

e d u ca ted p eo p l e . No t

A l o t o f t he se peop l e t ha t came ove r we re we l l

. not i n wha t we know i t , educa t i on . And . . .

Q . I t ' s j u s t t ha t Roc he s te r ha s n ' t had too many d emoc ra t i c . . .

A . We l 1 , Roc h e s te r

Q . Adm i n i s t r a tion s excep t , l i ke , i n t h e d e p re s s i on .

A . W� J 1 , s t ra ng e l y enoug h , the re wa s a M r. Me s s i nge r.

I n terv i ew w i t h Harry Susk i nd

Q. The name doe sn 1 t r i ng a be l l .

A . I t doe s n ' t ? H e wa s the on l y soc i a l is t . . . on l y soc i a l i s t . . . n ow what wa s

he , a superv i sor ? Or a n a l derma n ? I ' m no t sure . But he wa s e i ther a coun ty

or a c i ty . . . a l oca l e l ec t ed o f f i c i a l o f the soc i a l i s t party .

Q. Here i n Roches ter?

A . I n Roc he s ter , yea h . Yea h . Mo s t of the J ews were e i t her soc i a l i s t s , a n d a s

th� g a i ned i n s ta ture , became re pub l i c a n .

Q. I know . . t ha t 1 s t he next ge n era t i on .

A . Evo l ution . Tha t ' s a fac t . Yea h . Mr . M e s s i ng er wa s e l ec ted , he ' s e i ther a n

a l derma n or a . . . w ha t wa s i t counc i l . Those d a y s i t wa s superv i sor ,

wh i c h was coun t y , a n d a l derm a n , the c i ty , you k now , ward . Ward s e t up . 1 1 m

i n c l i ned to thin k i t wa s � ward . The n he mus t 1 ve bee n a n a l derma n . I 1 m not

sure . And t he n , o f course , he be c�me a succe s s ful bus i ne s sma n a nd ra n a pa per

compa n y out on S tate S tree t or Water S tree t . I know S ta te S tree t wa s the l a s t

where t hey were . Be fore t ha t , I don't remem ber . But a n yhow , he wa s a soc i a l

i s t a l derm a n . A s he be c ame r i c her , he no l onger w� s a c t i ve i n po l i t i c s.

Q. Af ter t ha t one term a s a l derm a n?

A . I t hin k he wa s more t h a n one term , I be l i e ve i t wa s two t erm s . But . . . and

s tra ng e l y e noug h , t he Rus s i a n Re vo l ut i on turned the l o t o f t h e s e p eop l e off a s

far a s soc i a l i sm wa s con cerned .

Q. Th i s i s i n 1 9 1 7 ?

A . From tha t po i n t on . I knew , I had a fr i end who wa s a bus i ne s s a cqua i n ta n c e .

H i s name wa s Abraham S chu l ma n , a nd he be l onged to the i n te l i g enc i a ( s pe l 1 i ng ? )

tha t come over from Rus s i a . H e wa s personally , he perso n a l l y knew some of the

l ea ding peop l e i n t h e Rus s i a Revo l ut i on . don1 t remember t he i r name s , but he

. he 1 s coming to see me some time a nd he s pee l s o ff t he s e Rus s i a n nota b l e s

who were i n the Revo l ut i o n . And the n when the Revo l ut i on took p l a c e , I t h i n k

I n te r v i ew w i th H a r r y Susk i n d

A . (Con t i nued ) mos t o f t hem mus t have be l onged to a men c hu r i k ( s p e l l i ng ? ) pa r t y .

Mo s t o f t hem we re 1 i qu i d a ted . And h e wa s so a ng ry . H e s a i d t o t ake a ma n

l i ke . . . a nd t hen he ' d me n t i o n a n ame . And k i l l h i m, fo r w ha t ? A beaut i fu l

p e r sona l i ty . So t hey turned ag ain s t t he Rus s i a n Revo l ut i on . F a c t o f t he

ma t te r, you c a n ' t f i nd J ews th� t a re i n favor of t he Rus s i a n Revo l ut i on for

t ha t r ea son . B e cause t he y had a know l e d g e o f a l l the s e peop l e t hat we re

1 i qu i da ted a n d we re hur t, and t hey t h rew up t he i r h a n d s i n d i sgus t .

Q . Eve n T rod sky ( s pe l l i ng ? ) h i m se l f .

A . T ha t's r i g h t . Tha t's r i g h t . And I t h i nk t h a t T rod sky wa s one o f t he men t ha t

t h i s M r . S c hu l ma n knew . So t hey'd h a ve no p a r t o f t he Rus s i a n R evo l ut i on .

Q . D i d they con t i n ue w i t h t he i r soc i a l i s t . ?

A . Ye s . J u s t a bout Ye s . Some o f t hem d i d, n o t a l l o f t hem . T h i s wa s a

g r adua l p roce s s, a n d wha t . . . wha t 1 i qu i d a ted t he who l e soc i a� i s t p a r ty a s

fa r a s J ews a re con ce r ned, wa s t he a d ven t o f H i t l e r .

Q . And t he pos i t i on o f t h e Sov i e t U n i on

A . Yea h . Bea r i n min d t ha t G e rmany wa s t he mos t soc i a l i s t coun t ry . . . soc i a l

i s t i c coun t r y i n t he wo r l d p r i o r to Wo r l d Wa r I even .

Q. T ha t wa s t he l a r ge s t

. t he gove r nme n t .

one o f t he l a rg e s t p a r t i e s a n d a f te rwa rd s t hey we re

A. T ha t's r i g h t . T ha t's r i g h t . And t hen t he Wyma r ( s pe l l i ng ? ) repub l i c, I t h i nk,

wa s ma i n l y m a d e up o f soc i a l i s t s . And t h i s i s wha t H i t l e r l i qu i d a ted . So

t h a t wa s t he f i n i s h of J ew i s h i n te n s i ve l i beral i sm, I t h i nk, i n Ame rica . A l t houg h

i n New York i t s t i l l i s, but ha s taken a d i f fe re n t turn . L i ke your . . . take

woma n 1 i ke B e l l a Abzug, see ?

Q . I wa s j us t read i ng a bout he r .

A . S he ' s a 1 i be r a 1. But s h e 1 s . . . he r ba ckg round mus t have be en t he s ame k i nd

of ba ckg round t ha t I 'm t a l k i ng a bout . And my own exp e r i e n ce wa s not qu i te 1 i ke

I n te rv i ew w i th Ha r ry Susk i nd

A . ( Con t i nued ) tha t . M y fa the r wa s not a l i be ra l . S ta ng e l y enoug h , m y fa the r

wa s oh . . . wa s a wo r k i ng ma n . D i d n 1 t g i ve i t much thoug h t . And when i t

came r i ght d own to i t when 11d have a rgume n t s w i th h i m , he was not a 1 i be ra l

i n the t rue s e n s e of the wo rd .

Q. Wha t . . . po l i tica l l y ?

A . Po l i t i ca l l y . 11m ta l k i ng a bout po l i t i ca l l y . Oh , he wa s , o therw i se , he was too

1 i be ra I . I me� n he wa s a ve ry good man . th i n k .

Q. We re you , your se l f , a c t i ve i n po l i t i c s he re i n Roche s te r ?

A . Neve r ac t i ve i n po l i t i c s .

Q. But you r fa the r wa s a s soc i a ted w i th the wo rk i ng . . .

A . On l y th rough the Wo r kmen1s C i rc l e . And the Wo r kmen 1 s C i rc l e , I t h i n k mo s t of

them we re soc i a l i s t s .

Q. B efo r e when you men t i on ed , 1 i ke , whe n Emma Goldm�n . . .

A . Huh?

Q. Emma Go l dman 1 s expe r i en ce he re i n Roche s t e r .

A . Yea h , we l l she a l so i s a p roduc t o f the s ame You k now , a lot o f them who

fo r yea r s cou l d n1 t ta l k i n Europ e , a l l o f a sud d e n they come to Ame r i ca a n d the

f re e s p eech wa s beaut i fu l . And the y rea l l y talked . The y we r e , I don't know

i f the y ph i l i soph i ca l l y unde r s tood the p r i nc i p� l s of ma rx i sm o r tha t so r t o f

th i ng . Maybe n ot.

Q. But they used the s ame , some o f the same t e rm s .

A . They we re . . wha t they we re r e be l l i n g aga i n s t i s econom i c con d i t i on s tha t

we r e a l mos t i nhum a n . My mo the r came to·th i s coun t r y , i t mus t ha ve been a bout

1 890, I don 1 t know the exa c t d a te . . . o r 1 889. Whe n she c ame to th i s coun t r y ,

she wa s a young g i r l , young wom a n . M y mo the r to l d m e tha t when she wa s i n

Rus s i a , when she was a 1 i t t l e g i r l so sma l l tha t whe n they too k he r to the

fa c to r y , they had to l i f t he r up on the t a b l e . And i n he r town where she 1 ived ,

I n t e rv i ew w i .th Ha rry Susk i nd

A. ( C on t i nued) t h e re wa s a toba cco fa c to r y . And the y took a l 1 o f t he l a bo r tha t

t he y cou l d g e t, but t he y rea l l y got i t fo r n o t h i n g . And s he t e l l s me, s he wa s

t h re e yea r s o l d . Now ma y be s he wa s a yea r o l d e r, don 1 t know.

s eems awfu l l y young . But they had to 1 i f t her up a nd she

mea n tha t

they s e t her on

t he t � b l e �nd s he wa s c l ea n i ng toba c co . We l l , com i ng �wa y f rom tha t k i nd of

a s i tua t i on, you coul d und e r s ta n d t he d e s p a i r t hey ha d i n the o l d c oun t ry .

Q . Yes .

A . And t hey g o t here a n d t he re wa s f re edom o f speec h, a n d t he y we r e s t i l l poo r

he r e . T he y d i d n ' t come to t h i s coun t r y � n d f i n d the s t ree t s 1 i ned w i t h go l d,

you know? Had to wo r k . And t he y s t i l l had swea t s hop s i n N ew Yo r k a t tha t

t i me .

Q . Ye s .

A . A n d . . . so , t he y we re t ry i ng to be t t e r the i r cond i t i on s . And i f the y cou l d

ta l k, t he y ta l ke d . And they d i d th i ng s .

Q . When you came to Roche s te r was the r e r ea l l y d i s t i n c t d i v i s i on be tween the

G e rma n - J ew i s h a n d the Rus s i a n - J ew i s h Commun i t y ?

A . We came to Roche s t e r q u i te e � r l y . A l t hough t he re we r e a l o t o f Rus s i an - J ews

i n Roc he s t e r . We came . . . my p a re n t s came he re f rom N ew Yo r k i n 1 900.

Ma rch . And, d i d n ' t k now any G e rma n - J ews . And s t rang e l y enoug h, we neve r

1 i ved r ea l l y i n t he hea r t of t he g he t to . The f i r s t home tha t I ha d , we 1 i ved

on Put nam S t r e e t, t he n we moved f rom Putnam S t re e t to Hud son Avenue . And

f rom Hud son Ave nue to T hom a s S t r e e t, a l l o f wh i c h wa s o n the f r i ng e o f .

And a l l m y p � re n t s knew , I wa s on l y a youn g s t e r , I wa s o n l y s i x yea r s o l d ,

t he re we re Rus s i � n - J ews . Fam i l i e s , not a ve ry l a rge fam i l y i n Roche s te r . And

we soon go t a cqua i n ted w i th the p eop l e � t t he . . . wen t to t he synagogue w i th .

Peop 1 e they go t to know . . . i n t rod uced one wa y o r .,•:mo t h e r. And a 11 o f t hem

. . . t he G e rman- J ews we re t he ones tha t i so l a te d themse l ve s a c tua l l y .

I n te r v i ew w i th Ha r r y Sus k i nd

Q . The y p u t up t he i r own b a r r i e r s . .

A . Yea h , we l l , t hey we re r i c h p eop l e . T he y mad e a l o t o f mone y , t he y had been

he re fo r a l ong t i me . And , t he Rus s i an - J ews ha d a roug h t i me o f i t .

Q . They we re t he peop l e who we re wo r k i ng i n t he bac kyard swea t s hop s .

A . T ha t 1 s r i g h t . That 1 s r i g h t . And i t was t he G e rm � n - J ews tha t . . . t ha t were

t he ones t ha t h i red t hem , you know?

Q. Yes .

A . And t he re cou l d neve r cou l d b e � n y pea ce between t he emp l o yer an d emp l oyee ,

e s pecia l l y i n t i mes l i ke t ha t . The t r i c k was to g e t them to wo r k fo r a s l i t t l e

a s you coul d ge t t hem to wo r k for . Keep t he body a nd sou l toge t he r .

Q . L i ke , I be l i eve i n t ha t one s tud y by R� b b i Ro senberg so r t o f j us t ends and

s a y s , we l l , two commun i t i e s bec ame one . He s t re s s e s . . . P h i l i p Be r n s te i n 1 s

a c t i v i t i e s as be i ng the maj o r fac tor .

A . We l l , o f cour s e , s i n ce t he n t he re 1 s been a b reak - a way f rom the po r t i on o f t he

81 r i t h Kod e s h cong rega t i on ha s b roken away a n d have gone to t ha t o t h e r temp l e

o f f o f P e n f i e l d Road t h e r e .

Q . 1 1 ve s e e n i t mo re t ha n once , an d 1 1 m con s c i ous o f it , b u t I don 1 t know a n y

t h i ng a bout i t .

A . We II, t he i r . t hey we re rad i ca l i n t he wa y that t he . . . t he y wa n ted t h e

Refo rmed temp l e to b e Refo rme d a s i t wa s . I n o t he r wo rd s , the Refo rme d temp l e

a s i t wa s whe n I f i r s t j o i n ed i t , the que s t i o n of wea r i ng a ya rmu l ke

a s a ha t , wa s f rowned upon .

Q . Ye s .

A . I n o t he r wo rd s , they t r i ed to make t he i r re l i g i on a s mod e r n a s t hey po s s i b l e

cou l d , and l ea ve a l l o f t he o l d supe r s t i t i on a nd e ve ry t h i ng else out o f i t .

A n d P h i l i p Bern s te i n , because o f h i s d e s i re , a s I i n t e r p re t ed i t , h i s d e s i re

to have t he J ew i s h popu l a t i o n mo re sol i d , mo re sol i d i f i ed as a un i t . H e t r i ed

I n t e r v i ew w i t h Ha r r y Susk i n d

A . ( Con t i nued) t o do some com p ro m i s i ng i n t he ma t t e r o f r i tua l a n d t h a t so r t o f

t h i n g . I n o t he r wo r d s , h e b roug h t t he o l d Refo rmed movemen t c l oser i n to the

Conse rva t i ve mov emen t . And i n t h a t wa y , B e t h E l ta l ked to B'r i .t h Kodeshcmem-

be rs. You know? I remem be r one t i me when I was f i rs t !

when I f i rs t

jo i ned B'r i t h Kodesh , a n d a re l i g i ous J ew came i n to m y p l a c e of bus i ness a n d

h e says t o m e h e says , wh i c h t emp l e do you be l ong , wh i c h syn agogue d o you

be l ong to? sa i d B ' r i t h Kod esh . H e sa ys , t h ey ' r e n o t J ews . ( U n i n te l l i g i b l e )

He says, t hey ' r e n o t J ews . And now , of course , t h e u l t ra - Conse rva t i ve have

moved up , because t he y r ea l i ze d t ha t . . i n t h i s d ay a nd a g e w i t h automob i l es

and a l l of t h e o t he r t h i n gs t ha t go on i n mod e r n 1 i fe , they cou l d n' t p a y

st r i c t a t ten t i on t o o l d , r i g i d O r t hodox ru l es . For i ns t a n c e , wha t i s a woma n

gonna do i f she ' s got a r e f r i g e ra t o r ? S he ' s gonna have two of t hem , one for

mea t and one fo r m i l k ? See ? D i s hwa she rs?

Q . T ha t ' s r i g h t .

A . Now t he J ew i sh popu l a t i o n i s sp read a l l over t h e coun t y . An d t he y c om e t o t he

t emp l e . I f t hey a t t emp ted to come by wa l k i ng , they'd never g e t t h e re . They ' d

sp end t heir who l e 1 i fe wa l k i ng . So , t hey had to ha ve p a rk i ng l o ts a n d t he

necessa r y equ i pmen t to harid l e i t . So t hey comp rom i sed . T he r e was a l o t o f

comp rom i s i ng go i n g on . Of course , f rom whe r e I sta n d , i t doesn ' t ma t te r .

I mea n , t hese t h i ngs a re a l l t h i ngs t h a t ha d to be done by t he o l d t i me r s . I t

was a wa y out fo r t hem , so t hey a dop ted c e r ta i n t h i ngs t h a t made i t ha rd to

a ccommod a t e mod e r n 1 i fe .

Q . Do you t h i nk t h a t the re l i g i ous commun i ty he re i n Roc hes t e r has moved mo r e

towa rds t he Conse r va t i ve pos i t i on f rom Refo rmed o r Othod ox , o r a r e t hey st i l l

t h ree sepa ra te g roups?

A . We l 1 , t he r e was a t i me when t he Refo rmed . t h i s a l l goes back to t he o l d

p i c ture t ha t I t r i ed to convey be fo re; the Refo rmed we r e t he r i c h J ews . H e r e

I n terv i ew w i t h Harry Sus k i n d Pag e 29

A. ( Con t i nued ) no l on ger true . No l on g er i s t ha t true . As t he y . . . you

can't make a s t a t emen t I i ke t ha t . I suppose t here �re some r i c h R e forme d

J ews and t here are some poor Con serva t i ve J ews , but i n t h e ma i n , I t hink i t's

t he Con serva t i ve who are t he wea l t h i er more aff l ue n t J ews . Be t h E l has a

very wea l t hy popu . . . congregat i on . Now B'rlt h Kod e s h has a c on greg a t i on

wh i c h i s n o t so a f f l ue n t . A l o t o f t he peop l e t h ere are j us t work i n g peop l e .

But t he y do have a l o t o f pro fe s s i on a l s i n bot h con grega t i on s . But I t h i nk

t ha t B e t h E l ha s a r i c her congregat i on . t h i s i s on l y a n o b s ervat i on .

n ever s tud i ed t he mat t er . And of cour s e , wha t's been e l i m i na ted . . . you

know , t here wa s a t i me t here when d own . . . down i n t he poorer s ec t i on o f

town . . We n ever rea l l y had a s l um down t h ere . I t wa s j us t a poor n e i g h-

borhood , but i t wa s n ever "s l ummy" . But we had so man y c hurc h e s , a s I s tated

to you be fore , not c hurc he s but synagogue s on . . . i n that part i cu l ar par t of

t he c i ty , t hat i t rea l l y c ou l dn't b e sup ported but i t was . I don't know how

t ha t happen ed . I t mus t have been . . . on Hanover S tree t , l e t's s ee t here wa s

on e , two , t hree , four , f i ve , s i x . . . I t h i nk t here were seven s yn a gogue s at

one t i me on Han over S tree t . I f I coun ted r i g h t . O h , t here were so ma n y t h i ng s

hap pened . I remem ber t here wa s i n Roc h e s t er t h e Young Peop l e Soc i a l i s t Lea gue .

And i t wa s qu i te wei I s up por t e d by young J ew i s h peop l e . I be l on ged to t he

Young Peop l e's Soc i a l i s t League when I wa s a k i d . T h i s happen ed before Wor l d

War I . But Wor l d War I pre t t y we l l d e s troyed t he soc i a l i s t movemen t , a n d

d e s troyed t he Young Peop l e's Soc i a l i s t League . W e used . . we used to .

we wen t a l on g w i th t he G erman s when t he y bu i l t t h e . . . wha t do t hey ca l l t hat

bu i l d i ng t here on S t . Paul S t re e t ? I t's r i g ht near Bausch & Lomb P l aza on

t he o ther s i de o f t he s tree t . Roe ? Ro s e ? Wha t was the name of t he G erman

bu i l d i n g t here on S t . Pau l S treet where we used to me e t a s youn g s t er s ?

Ro se: You s hou l d n't have a s ked because now I don't . . . n ow I ' 11 n ever t h i nk o f i t .

I n te r v i ew w i t h Ha r ry Sus k i nd

A . ( Con t i nued ) ·La bo r L i seum ( s pe l l i ng ? ) La bo r L i seum .

Q . Oh, ye s . Oh, yes .

A . Yea h .

I ' ve hea rd o f i t .

P<'lge 3 0

Ro se : I t houg h t you mea n t t he g ym na s t i c p l a ce on C l i n ton Avenue . T he g ym n<'l s t i c . . .

Q . No . I sa i d S t . P au 1 S t re e t .

Rose: Oh .

A . Labo r L i s eum . T he young . . . t he re we r e many J ew i s h youn g s t e r s t h.!! t be l onged

to t he soc i a l i s t . . . T he Young Peop l e Soc i a l i s t League . A bun c h of f i n e

k i d s . A l l i n te l l ec tua l s . Tha t l s . . . I d on ' t mea n educ a t i on w i s e , I me a n

wha t t he y . . . t he y we r e t h i n ke r s . A n d , w e had t he Young Peop l e Soc i a l i s t

Le� gue t he re . And many o f t he b r i g h t , youn g k i d s be l onged to t h a t , who l a t e r

became l a wye r s, a nd d oc t o r s, a n d wha t ha ve you . But when Wo r l d W.!! r I C .!!me

a l ong, p i c ture t h i s : La bo r L i seum wa s a bu i l d i n g t ha t wa s put up p r i ma r i l y

by t.he G e rman wo r ke r s i n Roc he s t e r . You know, a l l t h e se young J ew i s h k i d s

used to mee t t he re . They we re v e r y c l o s e f r i e n d s w i t h t h e s e G e rma n s . T hen we

wen t to wa r a g a i n s t G e rma n y . And t he re wa s .!! c l eava g e t h e re . T he G e r ma n s

r ema i ne d w i t h t he i r bu i l d i ng, t he La bo r L i seum, t he y s t i l 1 ha ve i t . And, mo s t

o f t he mem be r s h i p, t h e young J ew i s h membe r s h i p p a r t i cu l a r l y d i s so l ved . .

d i s a ppea r ed . Tha t wa s t he t i me o f Eug e n e V . De b b s .

Q . Yes .

A . Fa c t o f t he ma t te r, m y w i fe ha s a p i c tu r e w i t h Eug ene V . De b b s a n d h i s

brot h e r t h a t s he too k r i g h t h e r e i n Roc hes te r . And we be l on g ed to t he L a bo r

L i s eum . A n d t ha t h a d a b i g i n f l uenc e o n t he C i t y of Roc h e s t e r .

Q . How so ? I n e ve r even hea rd of t ha t . I mea n, I ha ve hea rd, but not h i ng i n

d e ta i l .

A . We l l , i t's ha rd to remem b e r because you go f rom d a y to d<'!y deve l opme n t s . But

f rom a c t i ve l y pa r t i c i pa t i n g po l i t i ca l l y . Tha t i s , th i s i s po l i t i c a l econom i c

I n t e r v i ew w i t h Ha r r y Susk i n d Page 3 1

A . ( C on t i nued ) a c t i on . Oh ye s , t h i s b r i ng s up a new po i n t tha t I ha ve to t e l l

you wh i c h I w i l l a f ter I d eve l op t h i s t h i n g . They turned to o t h e r t h i ng s .

Mo s t o f t hem we re good p eop l e. They p a r t I n many p rog r e s s i ve t h i ng s for t h e

c i t y . You know, t he y we re a c t i ve i n we l l , when t he Commun i t y C h e s t came

a l ong you saw t hem a l l wo rk i ng t h e r e . A l l t h� t so r t of t h i ng . Wha t wa s t he

t houg h t I had ? Now t ha t 1 1 ve b ro ken i t up , I don 1 t remem be r i t a n y mo re .

Q. Some t h i n g to d o w i th t he e f fe c t of p eop l e who we re � s soc i a ted w i t h t he

youn g soc i a l i s t s i n Roc he s t e r ?

A . Yea h . But . . .

Q . Roc hes t e r po l I t i cs ?

A . Yea h . Yea h . They we r e p r e t t y i n vo l ved I n t he po l i t i c s . . . t he po l I t i ca l

end of i t . Oh , ye s ! T he r e wa s a t i me when t he re wa s a s t ron g soc i a l l s t

mo vemen t i n Roc he s t e r .

Q . Yes . l 1 ve hea rd o f t ha t .

A . The t i me when when Mes s i n g e r bec�me e l ec ted on t he boa rd of a l d e rma n .

And you know, t h i s wa s a rea c t i ona r y c i t y of . . . on e o f t he g r ea t e s t r ea c

t i on a r y c i t i e s of t he Un i ted S t a t es , I t h i n k , a t o n e t i me . T hey u s e d to ha ve

two n i g h t s a we e k . t he y 1 d h a v e soa p box o ra to r s a t t he co rne r o f F ron t

S t reet a n d Ma i n . And pe r i od i ca l l y , some bod y wou l d g e t a r re s t ed t r y i ng to

ma ke a speech a t t he co rne r of Wa t e r a nd Ma i n S t r ee t . I n f ron t , n o

Wa t e r a nd Ma i n . They fe l t w i t h a J o t of l i te ra ture , you knmv . . . you know ,

t h i s wa s d yn a m i te . But a c tua l l y t he I i te ra ture wa s a l mo s t i n nocuous . T ra c k s

b y kn own soc i a l i s t wr i t e r s o f t ho s e d a ys , who a c tua l l y , t here wa s no t h i ng

revo l ut i ona ry a bout i t a t a l l . T h e y we re a s k i ng fo r t h i n g s t ha t wou l d ta ke

t ha t we a cc ep t

Q . E i g h t hour d a y s .

. . o l d a g e p en s i on s , a n d

A . a n d t he e i g h t hour d a y , a n d . . . I w i s h I ha d some of t hose t h i ng s

I n t e rv i ew w i t h Ha r r y Su s k i nd Page 3 2

A . ( Con t i n ued ) t ha t we used t o pa s s ou t . E i g h t ho u r day , hea l t h i n s u ra nc e ,

a l l o f the t h i ng s t ha t we p ra c t i ca l l y g o t now , a n d po l i t i c a l ly a r e be i n g

d i s c u s sed a t a l l t i me s . B u t t h o s e we r e t he t h i ng s t ha t t he y we r e t a l k i ng

a bo u t on Wa t e r a n d Ma i n S t re e t . An d t ho s e we r e t h e t h i ng s t ha t t he y we re

a r re s ted fo r . Wee k l y .

Q . I know t h e re wa s some r e s i s t a n c e he re i n Roc he s t e r ove r a c c ep t i n g WPA f u nd s

� n d .

A . We l l , b roug h t t h a t o u t when I s a i d .

Q . Y e s , we t a l ked a l i t t l e b i t a bo u t i t .

A . A bo u t t he . . . Ha n ove r Ho u se s ?

Q. Ha nove r Ho u se s .

D i d I t a l k a bo u t t he hous i ng ?

A . Yea h . T h a t wa s o n e o f t he t h i n g s t h a t I ta l ked a bo u t , t ha t i t wa s s o r i g i d l y

rep u b l i ca n t ha t when i t come t o . . . whe n we f i na l l y b ro ke d own t h e ba r r i e r s

a n d t hey rec og n i zed t he fa c t t ha t w e oug h t t o ha ve some p u b ! i c hou s i ng , t h e y

wo u l dn 1 t t a ke t he money f rom t he fed e ra l gove r nme n t bec a u s e t ha t wa s a g a i n s t

t he i r g ra i n . T he y took i t f rom A l ba n y . H a d t hey t a ken i t f rom fed e ra l gove r n

men t , w e wou l d neve r ha ve had Hanove r Ho u s e s , t h e p ro b l em t ha t i t c re a t ed fo r

u s . Fo r t he s i mp l e rea son t ha t t he r e , yo u co u l d 1 ve bu i l t you r hou s e s a n d

bu i l t t he home s i n a n y wa y y o u saw f i t . And t h e f e d e r a l gove rnme n t wou l d

p rov i de t he f und s . Bu t w i t h t he s ta t e , i t wa s a no t he r ma t te r . T he c o s t o f

l a n d a c q u i s i t i on d e t e rm i ned t h e n umber o f peop l e t ha t h a d to b e re l oca ted on

t h a t . . . on t ha t a rea . And t h i s d ema n d ed a h i g h- r i se . Roc he s te r wa s not

rea d y fo r t ha t . N ow , i f we had put on the ga rden t yp e a pa r tmen t s t h e re , we

wo u l d have o n l y t he n had g a r d en t y p e . ma y be t wo hund red . Maybe one hund red

a n d f i f ty i n t ha t l an d . We s t a r ted o f f w i t h t h ree h u n d red a n d s eve n t y- e i g h t .

T h i s i s wha t c a u s ed t he h i g h- r i se . T h i s wa s t he b i g g e s t m i s t a ke . And w i t ho u t

a que s t i on , I t h i n k , t h e g rea t e s t se t ba c k i n p u b l i c ho u s i n g t ha t Roc he s te r had .

I n t e rv i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i nd

A . ( C on t i n ued ) Roche s te r s t a r t ed t he i r p u b ] i c ho u s i ng m u c h too l a t e . ·

Q. T h i s wa s r i g h t d u r i ng t he d e p r e s s i on .

Pa g e 3 3

A . We s t a r ted o n p u b l i c ho u s i ng when t h e c o s t s had r i s en . And . . . t h i s

know. Th i s i s a fa c t o f I i fe . We had a l o t . . . beca u se I wa s r i g h t t he re

w i t h a l l t he re s t o f t hem , wo r k i ng toge t he r . And we r ecog n i zed i mmed i a te l y

t ha t t h i s wa s a t e r r i b l e . . . a t e r r i b l e m i s ta ke . B u t t he re wa s no t h i ng

we cou l d do a bo u t i t , beca u s e t h a t wa s i n t he ha nd s o f t he p o l i t i ca l ma c h i ne .

And we we r e so g l ad t o g e t some k i nd o f p u b l i c hou s i ng t ha t we d i d n ' t p u t up

maybe a s g rea t a r e s i s ta n c e t ha t we c ou l d ha ve beca u s e we we r e a f r a i d t h� t

t he who l e t h i ng wo u l d fa l l on i t s face .

Q . Yes . We know peop l e i n oppos i t i on t o i t j u s t comp l e t e l y .

A . Tha t ' s r i g ht .

Q. Do you t h i n k t ha t

A . H u h ?

Q . t he k i nd of u r ba n r enewa l o r p u b l i c hou s i n g 1 i ke t ho s e p u b l i c hou s i ng

p roj ec t s r i g h t nex t to Ba yden S t re e t ha s been s u c c e s s f u l ? Tho s e a re sma l l e r

i n t h e i n s i de .

A . I n s p i t e o f t he fa c t t ha t a l l o f t h e s u r ro u n d i ng s we re nega t i ve , y e t when t he y

p u t up g a r d e n type s , t h ey 're d o i n g ve ry we l l . I t h i n k t hey ' r e do i n g we l l .

Tha t i s n o t mo r e t ha n two s to r i e s h i g h . W i t h c h i l d r en , a n y t h i ng e l s e i s

i n a c i ty 1 i ke Roc he s t e r whe re t he k i d s a re n o t fam i l i a r w i t h t ha t , a n d t hey

have no expe r i e n ce w i t h e l eva to r s and l i v i n g up s ta i r s , you know , and t ha t s o r t

o f t h i ng . I n New Yor k , ma y be , t hey ' re so a cc u s tomed to i t , t hey a c cep t i t .

B u t i n the C i ty of Roc he s t e r you ca n ' t . . . yo u cou l d n ' t d o i t . Tha t wa s a

comp l e t e revo l u t i on i n 1 i v i n g s t y l e .

Q . Yes , bu t . . . t he u r ban renewa l ha s so c ha n g e d J o se p h Aven u e t ha t i t ' s

d i f f i c u l t fo r me to v i s ua l wha t i t wa s once . don ' t know whe t he r u r ban

I n t e r v i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i nd Page 3 4

Q . ( Con t i n u ed ) ren ewa l ha s been s u cce s s f u l s i nc e t h e r e were b l oc k s o f va ca n t .

va can t l a n d r i g h t a c ro s s f rom t he s e t t l emen t . T h e r e 1 s n o t j u s t on e c h u rc h

t he re , a n d t he re 1 s b l oc k s o f . . .

A . We l l , i t 1 s ha rd t o rea l l y d e t e rm i n e wha t ca u s ed i t . I t h i n k i n n e r c i ty ha s

got a s muc h hou s i ng a s i t n e ed s , i n my op i n i on . And , we l l , I t h i n k t ha t maybe

we g o t a J ot t o l ea rn . know when wa s you ng e r , and I wa s ve r y a c t i ve i n

t h a t s o r t o f t h i ng , i n t ha t bu s i ne s s , we t houg h t tha t once you g i ve a pe r son

a good home c l ea n w i t h a l l mod e rn . . . t ha t wou l d be t he so l u t i on to

ma n y of o u r i l l s . B u t a p p a r en t l y i t i sn 1 t . I t d oe s n 1 t do i t . Ma y be 1 1 m

wron g . M a y b e t h e re 1 s some fa c to r i n t h e r e t ha t don 1 t see . B u t ce r ta i n l y

s i n ce we 1 ve had t h i s p u b l i c hou s i ng , t ho s e peop l e t h a t wen t to Ha n ove r Hou s e s

d i d n 1 t c ha n g e t he i r 1 i fe s ty l e s enoug h s o tha t i t wa s a n y bet t e r . B u t c e r ta i n l y

h i g h r i s e s i n Roc h e s te r wa s a l l wron g . I t h i n k t ha t every c i t y ha s to d e te r-

m i n e for i t s e l f wha t k i n d o f hou s i ng peop l e wa n t and a re a c c u s t omed to t o

b r i ng o u t t he be s t l i v i n g pa t t e rn . And Roc he s t e r n e v e r had ma n y a p a r tme n t

hou s e s e s p e c i a l l y h i g h r i s e .

Q . The r e a ren 1 t many t ha t I can t h i n k o f . And t ho s e t h a t a r e , a re ve ry recen t

i n Roche s te r . P i n na c l e . a coup l e of U C D deve l opme n t s . The re 1 s on e on

Sou t h Ave n ue , a nd t he re 1 s on e on C l i n ton . B u t t he re a r en 1 t ve ry ma n y .

A . We l l , be fo re p u b l i c hous i n g wen t i n to e f fe c t , t he re we r e v e r y , ve r y few h i g h

r i se a p a r tme n t s even i n . . . o f t he p r i va te l y own ed apa r tmen t s . You cou l d

a l mo s t cou n t t he m on t he f i n g e r s o f yo u r hand t ha t wen t ove r fou r o r f i ve

f l oo r s h i g h , s to r i e s h i g h . T h e re we r en 1 t a n y i n Roc he s t e r . They had s ome

e l eva ted a p a r tmen t s b u t t ha t comp a red to o t h e r c i t i e s , t hey we ren 1 t h i g h r i se .

Q . Wa s J o se p h Ave nue compo s ed p redom i na n t l y , 1 i ke , two s to r y hou s e s t ha t had

been d i v i ded

A . We l l , J o s e p h Aven ue o r i g i n a l l y wa s a re s i den t i a l s t re e t . Ho u s e s set bac k

I n t e r v i ew w i th Ha r r y S u s k i nd Pa ge 3 5

A . ( C on t i n ued ) m a y b e a bou t twen t y feet f rom t he s i d ewa l k l i n e . And the n when

t h e se sma l l bu s i ne s smen came a l ong , wha t t he y d i d wa s p u t up I i t t l e s to re s

i n f ron t o f t he i r homes , l i ved i n bac k , a n d ope ra t ed t he i r bu s i n e s s ou t o f

t hese sma l l p l ac e s i n f ron t . Tha t 1 s how t h e y cou l d d o i t . T h e y we r e

twen ty- fou r hou r a d a y b u s i n e s smen . A n d t hey go t a I i v i n g tha t wa y . Some

g roup . B u t s om e rema i ned j u s t a s t he y we r e . They s ta r t ed o f f t ha t wa y a n d

ended t ha t wa y .

Q . I g ue s s some of t hem had g rown f rom , yo u know, ba c k ya rd s c r a p d e9 l e r s to

hug h conc e r n s . 1 1 m j u s t t h i n k i n g a bou t the C reeg e r Comp a n y .

A . Yea h . Tha t 1 s a

Q . I mea n , t he y s ta r t ed a s a ba c k ya rd b u s i ne s s .

A . Yea h . T h e re we re a I o t o f t hem t ha t . . . t he r e 1 s . . . t ha t d i d bea u t i f u 1 1 y .

Then t hey . . . a l o t o f t hem fa i l ed . A f t e r t he y g o t b i g . A s sma l l b u s i ne s s

m en t hey d i d bea u t i f u l l y , a s soon a s t hey go t b i g g e r , I d on 1 t t h i n k t he y cou l d

cope . E i t he r t hey we re i n t he k i n d o f b u s i n e s s t ha t wa s on t he wa y o u t , o r

t he y t hem s e l ve s we r e n o t b i g enough t o ha n d l e t he b i g b u s i ne s s . For i n s ta n c e ,

t h e re u s ed to be . . t he re u sed to be a woo l en h o u s e i n Roc hes t e r r u n by

Co hen 1 s . They we re a t t he c o r n e r of r i g h t nea r t he ra i l road t ra c ks on

t he co r ne r o f J o s e p h Ave n u e a n d t h e s t ree t r u n n i n g pa ra l l e l t he re to i t .

An d , had a b i g p l a c e t he r e . They we re known i n t e r na t i ona l l y . I t h i n k t hey

had o f f i ce s i n E n g l a n d . I n Lon don . B u t , fo r some rea son o r an ot h e r .

They we re i n c l i pp i n g s a n d t ha t s o r t o f t h i ng f rom t he b i g ta i l o r s ho p s , a n d

t h i s wa s a n i dea l fo r i t beca u s e t h i s wa s a b i g c l o t h i n g c en t e r . So , Cohen 1 s

we r e a b i g ou t f i t . B u t t he o l d ma n d i ed , a n d t he son s took ove r . And 1 i t t l e

by l i t t l e t he y s l i p , s l i p , s l i p , u n t i l i t d i ed awa y a n d t h e re 1 s no l on g e r

a n y b u s i n e s s t he re . And t he r e wa s t h e . . . ( U n i n te l I i g i b l e ) S t a r o n t he

co r n e r of Ke l l y a n d J os ep h . T he y u s ed to have l a d i e s wea r , a l l k i n d s o f

I n t e r v i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i n d Page 3 6

A . ( Con t i n ued ) c l o t h i n g fo r c h i l d r en , men , women . I ca n 1 t t h i n k o f t h e name

now . I remem be r s he wa s a s he wa s a d a u g h t e r o f one of t he M a n a s c i ev i t z

( s p e l l i ng ? ) t ha t ma ke ma t zo s i n B rook l yn .

Can 1 t t h i n k o f t h a t s to re own e r . Roe . .

E N D OF TAP E I I , S I D E I , I NT E RV I EW I I

g u e s s 1 1 m g et t i n g very o l d .

I n t e r v i ew w i th HARRY S U S K I N D

Tape I I S i de I I I n te r·v i ew I I

Ro s e : . . . on Ke l l y . N u s ba um !

A . N u s ba um ' s .

Q . N u s b a um ' s .

A . T he N u s baum ' s S to re . And t ha t

a rou n d a n d se l l s t u f f f rom t he

Page 3 7

they . . . h e wa s pedd l e r . H e u sed to go

he ca r r i ed or he wou l d se l 1 . they

we re sma r t enoug h . They u s e d to ge t o rd e r s . Wha t t hey ' d d o , t he y ' d make

a r ra n g emen t s w i t h d i ffe re n t s to re s i n Roche s te r f rom wh i c h t hey wou l d g e t a

d i scoun t . T hey t he n wo u l d go a round a nd se 1 1 i t to a .l l t h e . . . s e 1 1 t he

me rcha n d i se to , we l 1 , t he y wou l d n ' t se l l the me r c h a n d i s e . Wha t t he y wou l d d o

wa s , t hey h a d c u s tome r s . They ' d g o t o t h e c u s tome r s a n d sa y , we l 1 , go i n to

S i b l e ys a nd c ha rge i t to me . T he y wou l d g e t a d i s co u n t f rom the s to r e , see ?

And t he n , t hey wou l d co l l e c t the money on a wee k l y ba s i s f rom t h e c u s tome r s .

And t h a t wen t o n . And t he re wa s q u i te a few peop l e who we re i n t h a t k i nd of

a dea l . And , you know , t he s e peop l e we re poo r . They needed t h i ng s . T h i s wa s

the f i r s t c red i t m e r c ha n d i se . There we re a l o t o f J ew i s h p eop l e t ha t we n t i n to

i t . B u t , N u s ba um ' s u sed to d o t h e i r own . H e u s ed to se I 1 t ha t wa y . And t he n ,

f i na l l y t he y opened up a s to re . And t he n t hey opened up a l a r g e r s to re . And

f i na l l y t hey we r e a b i g s to re . They we r e a fac to r i n Roche s te r to be reckoned

w i t h beca u s e they had a l o t o f t rade be s i des J ew i s h t ra d e , Po l i s h , I ta 1 i a n .

O f cou r s e , when t h e s t re e t became so bad , t he y f i n a 1 1 y fe l l on t he i r face , too .

Q . I s tha t t he wa y , l i ke , a s to re l i ke Ne i s ne r ' s became ?

A . No . Ne i s ne r ' s d i d n ' t beg i n t ha t wa y .

Q . They began a s a f u l l - sc a l e s to r e ?

A . Yea h . T he y became . I t h i n k he opened u p a few s to re s , a nd t he n f i na l l y ,

t hey be came b i gg e r a nd b i g g e r . They we re ve r y en t e rp r i s i ng . No . Bu t , t he re

I n te rv i ew w i t h H a r r y S u s k i nd Page 3 8

A . ( Con t inued ) wa s a fam i l y b y the name o f Samue l s . T h i s i s a n i n t e r e s t i ng

t h i ng . Samue l s u s e d to have a l i t t l e s to re t ha t t he y ren ted f rom a ma n by

t he name o f C l on i k . T h i s wa s a s to re t ha t wa s be l ow the s i dewa l k l e ve l . You

wen t down the s ta i r s and the re wa s a s to re . And t he y u sed to s e l l a l l k i n d s

of t h i n g s the re : d i s he s , c rocke r y , I i mag i ne some ha rdwa re i tems , a n d tha t

s o r t o f t h i ng , s he l f - p a p e r , to i l e t p a pe r . You know , a l l t h a t so r t o f t h i ng .

Who wa s t h a t run b y ? Tha t wa s r u n by Howa rd Samue l s g ra ndmo t he r . And t he

boys we re go i ng u p t he r e ·. I knew . . I k new Samue l s boy s . I k new Howa rd

Samue l s ' fa t he r , Ha r ry Sam ue l s . Love l y p eop l e . And , I t h i n k Howa r d wa s one

of the f i r s t one s to g ra d ua te w i t h a good e d u ca t i on . A l t hough the re s t o f

t hem may ha ve bee n ed uca ted , I d on ' t know . B u t Howa rd wen t a nd opened u p t ha t

p l a s t i c s p l a ce down t he re i n M a cedon .

Q . Ye s . Yes .

A . I t wa s taken ove r by Mob i l e . H e be came a m i l l i ona re i n i t . remembe r when

he s ta r ted . At f i r s t , a l l t he y we re ma k i ng wa s c l o t he s l i ne s . P l a s t i c c l o t he s

! i ne s . T ha t ' s how he s ta r ted . A nd t h e y had the s to re the re . Th i s wa s a

deve l opme n t t ha t took p l a ce , o f co u r s e , the Samue l s t hen moved f rom tha t p l a ce

to Nor th S t ree t . And r a n a s to re t he re , a l a rg e s to re t he re . And Howa rd

Samue l s ' u n c l e and fa t he r ran t h a t p l a ce fo r the mo t he r . So t ha t ' s how t ha t

deve l oped t he re . Oh , I do n ' t know.

Q . I t seems i n t e re s t i ng t ha t l oo k i ng a t Ro c he s te r tod a y doe s n ' t seem l i ke the

J ew i s h C omm u n i t y i s t ha t hea v i l y i nvo l ved i n m e rca n t i l e or ba n k i ng .

to be mo re i n t h e p ro fe s s i o n s : l a wye r s .

A . We l l . . .

Q . O r i s i t ? I s m y i mp re s s i on c o r rec t ?

I t seems

A . The b a n k i ng . . . ba n k i ng t hey neve r we re ve ry . had a ve ry , yo u know,

n um be r i n l ea d e r s h i p i n b a n k i ng i n Roche s te r . No . The nea res t we came to i t

I n te r v i ew w i t h Ha r r y Su s k i nd Page 3 9

A . ( Con t i n ued ) we had , he u sed to be a cong r e s sma n . . . Hone y ? Ro se ! Wha t

wa s the cong r e s sma n ' s name ? You know , t he one t ha t wa s ma r r i ed to the L i p s ky

g i r l .

Ro s e : I cou l d s i t c l o s e r . A l r i g h t . W ha t i s i t ?

A . T he cong r e s s ma n ' s name t ha t u s ed to be

. on S ta te S t ree t . H e ma r r i ed L i p s ky .

Ros e : J a cob s te i n .

A . Yea h ! J a co b s te i n . You ' ve hea rd of h i m .

Q . Ye s ,

. he u sed to be w i t h t he b a n k i n

A . Yea h . We 1 1 , J aco b s te i n wa s a J ew i s h bo y t ha t wa s b o r n a n d ra i s ed i n Roc h e s te r ,

He ma r r i ed t h i s H u h ?

Ro s e : I cou l d n ' t he l p bu t over he� r wha t yo u sa i d � bo u t t h e Samue l s .

A . Yea h .

Ro se : D i d you te l l M r . F r i ed r i c h wha t happe ned whe n yo u w r i te a good t he s i s ?

A . Wh a t ' s t ha t ?

Ro se : Wha t wa s t he sou rce o f Samue l s ' fo r t une a f t e r wa rd s ? Wha t t hey we n t i n to ?

A . Yea h . Yea h .

Ros e : P l a s t ·i c s .

A . Yea h .

I t h i n k I made t ha t c l ea r . . . p l a s t i c s .

Ro se : Tha t wa s t he s u bj ec t o f h i s t h e s i s .

A . Yea h , t ha t ' s r i g h t . H e . h i s t he s i s a t co l l ege . He i s a c hem i s t I g ue s s .

B u t a ny how , t h i s cong re s sma n . . . yo u j u s t to l d me a nd I fo rgo t . J a cobs te i n .

Meye r J a cob s te i n . He wa s a Roc he s te r boy , g r a d u a t e d , I t h i n k , a t t he U n i ve r -

s i t y o f Ro�he s t e r . t h i n k he t a ug h t the re for a wh i l e . B u t , he came ba c k to

Roche s te r a n d s ta r ted a ba n k . Tha t ' s how I g o t on t he s u bj e c t . He s ta r te d a

ba n k , a n d i t wa s on S ta t e S t ree t . T hey too k ove r the ban k , a n d I t h i n k , i t wa s

i n t he E l wa n g e r & Ba r r y B u i l d i ng ( s pe l l i ng ? ) t h a t fo rme r l y ha d bee n a ba n k .

I n t e r v i ew w i t h Ba r ry Su s k i n d Page 4 0

A . Con t i n ued ) R i g h t i n t ha t ba n k . Now t hey m a d e i t w i t h ' a no t he r one , a nd he

opened up a ba n k t here . And I don ' t know how t h� t f i na l l y wa s d i s so l ved .

Bu t i t wa s , and i t wa s p ro ba b l y ta ken ove r by a n o t he r ba n k . The a ccou n t s

were i f I remembe r . Then M eye r J a c o b s te i n r a n a Hea r s t p � p e r i n Roche s te r .

D i d you know t ha t ?

Q . No .

A . Yea h .

d i d n ' t know .

I t wa s a H ea r s t p a pe r . I t wa s p u b l i s hed on S t . Pa u l S t ree t a t t he

co r ne r o f A n d rews whe re t he cook i ro n s to r e u s ed t o be . N o t too fa r a wa y

f rom i t . Wha t wa s t he name of t he news p a p e r t ha t Meye r J a co b s te i n p u b l i s hed ?

Ro s e : I can 1 t remem be r .

Q . Bu t i t wa s a Hea r s t p a pe r 7

A . I t wa s a Hea r s t , yea h .

Ros e : I t wa s a Hea r s t p a p e r .

A . I remem be r . I t h i n k i t wa s Roc he s te r Even i ng N ew s . Roc h e s te r Even i nd N ew s .

H e wa s t he ed i t o r o f i t . Now Meye r wa s a fa i r ly 1 i be ra l ma n . And . . go

a he a d .

Q . I j u s t wa n t t o ma ke ce r ta i n tha t we d on ' t cove r t ha t up .

A . H u h ?

Q . I wa n t t o ma ke ce r t a i n t ha t we don ' t cov e r up .

A . O h ! And he wa s q u i te a l ea d e r i n Roc he s t e r . H e became a l ea d e r t h ro u g h

h i s a c t i v i t y w i t h t he Ama l gama ted C l o t h i ng Wo r ke r ' s . See ?

Q . Excep t fo r t ha t one ven t u re , t he re haven ' t b e e n ma ny J ew s t ha t ha ve gone i n to

ba n k i n g .

A . No . A l t ho ug h , t h e re we re some r i c h J ews , G e rma n - J ews t ha t we re no t l ea d e r s i n

t he ba n k , b u t we r e c l o s e to t he top o f t he ba n k i ng i nd u s t r y i n Roc he s te r .

c a n ' t g i ve you m u c h . . . I t h i n k , M r . H umen who wa s c l o s e l y a l l i ed w i t h t he

Ro c he s te r Te l e p ho n e Compa ny . H e wa s a wea l t hy J ew , b u t n o t c l o se l y a l l i ed to

I n t e rv i ew w i th Ha r r y S u s k i n d Page 4 1

A . ( Con t i n ued ) t he ma i n s t r eam o f t h e J ew i s h peop l e . Meye r J a cobs t e i rt wa s a

I i be r a l who wa s e l ected to con g re s s on the d emoc ra t i c t i c ke t . T h e r e ' s a ca s e

whe re you had r e a l �w i s h i n f l u e n ce i n . deve l o p i ng a p o l i t i ca l f i g u re . My

op i n i on . B u t h e wa s c l o s e to t h e l a bo r moveme n t . T ha t ' s wha t p u t h i m a c ro s s .

Q . They very a c t i v� s up p o r t f rom t he J ew i s h

A . Ye s . We l l , I d on ' t know wha t e l s e I ca n t e l l you .

d i a r y .

I s hou l d ha ve ke p t a

Q . Yes , I know i t ' s i mpo s s i b l e to ta l k a bou t f i f ty yea r s i n j u s t a

I won d e r i f we cou l d ha ve j u s t some of you r g ue s se s : How . how . . . do

yo u t h i n k the J ew i s h Commu n i t y i s c ha n g i ng i n Roc hes t e r any d i f fe ren t l y f rom

t he commu n i t y a s a who l e ? Age- w i s e o r . .

Ros e : Ha r ry ?

A . Ye s, hon e y ?

Ro s e : I ' m go i ng t o t he s to re .

A . Oka y .

Q . soc i a l J y o r re s i d en t i a l l y ?

A . t h i n k we u sed t o be a mo re l y c l o se l y kn i t g roup i ng i n t he comm u n i t y .

t h i n k t h� I i ne s we re a I i t t l e more d e f i ned . Tod a y , yo u have t he J ew i s h

Commun i ty I i v i n g i n va r i o u s pa r t s o f t he c i t y . C ou n ty a l mo s t . The fa c t i s ,

t h e re a re n ' t t oo many J ews l ef t i n t he i n n e r c i ty . Beca u se t he . t he p a r -

t i on o f t h e i n n e r c i t y t ha t J ews o c c u p i ed h a s p re t t y m u c h been t a ke n ove r b y

b l ac k . T ha t ' s whe re the u r ban ren ewa l a n d u r ba n d e ve l opme n t took p l a ce . And

t he re a re ve r y , ve r y few J ews i n i n n e r c i t y . You ' I I f i n d t hem ma i n l y i n

B r i g h ton , Hen r i e t ta , I rondequo i t .

Q . I s up p o s e t ha t ' s one of t he rea son s w h y t he J ew i s h C ommu n i ty Cen t e r be i n g

b u i I t . . whe re i t wa s b u i l t ? B e ca u s e t he re we r e more . .

A . N o q ue s t i o n a bo u t i t . N o q ue s t i o n a bo u t i t . T he y had ma n y p ro b l em s t h e re w i t h


A . ( Con t i n ue d ) t he o l d bu i l d i ng o n And rews S t ree t t h e re . F i r s t t he y had no

pa r k i ng t he r e . A ser i o u s fa u l t . An d t hen aga i n , o f cou r s e , t he a rea c ha n ged

so t ha t t he y cou l d n ' t g e t a t tend a n ce t he re . So t hey f i g u red t hey m i g h t j u s t

a s we l l t a ke t h e b u l l b y t he ho r n s a n d rea l l y g e t a wa y f rom i t . T hey d i d .

Q . Ye s .

A . I th i n k they ' re d o i ng ve r y we l l t h e re whe re t he y a re . Ou t t he r e . . . wha t

r o u t e i s i t a g a i n ? No t We s t fa l l , i t ' s beyond We s t fa l l .

Q . I t ' s n o t Edg ewood , some t h i ng 1 i ke t ha t .

A . Yea h . Edge

Q . Edg ewood .

A . Edgewood ? O r Edgewa t e r ?

Q . Edgewa t e r .

A . Edgewa t e r .

Q . Edgewa t e r D r i ve .

A . Yea h . I t ' s a bea u t i f u l p l a c e t hey ' ve g o t t h e r e , a n d i t ' s q u i te a n i n s t i t u t i on .

Q . B u t yet , t he J ew i s h Home f o r t he Ag i ng i s st i l l .

A . S t i l l down on S t . Pa u l S t ree t .

Q . i n t he i n n e r c i ty .

A . Y ea h . They . . . we l l , wha t t he i r c l i e n te l e , I i ma g i n e be i ng t he i n n e r c i t y

i s a s good a s be i n g a ny whe re s e l s e . T he f a c t i s , i t ' s bet te r . Now , peop l e

1 i v i n g . t he y a l 1 have re l a t i ve s and f r i e n d s t ha t go a n d come to v i s i t

t hem . And , i f t he y wen t wa y o u t i n t he boon doc k s , t ha t wou l d n ' t happen . So ,

t hey ' re a bo u t e q ua l d i f fe re n ce f rom t he peop l e t ha t I i ve i n B r i g h ton , t he peo

p l e t ha t 1 i ve i n I rondequo i t , or H en r i e t ta . T hey ' ve a l l got to come to t he

i n ne r c i ty . I f t hey wa n t t o see t he i r f r i en d s . T h ey ' re n o t b i g e noug h to

have i n s t i t u t i on s 1 i ke t ha t i n eve r y pa r t whe r e t he J ew s ha ppen to be a I i t t l e

b i t mo re t h i c k l y pop u l a t ed . T ha t ' s one o f t he bee f s t ha t many peop l e have ,

I n te rv i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i nd Page 4 3

A . ( Con t i n ued ) ma n y J ew i s h peop l e h a d a bo u t t h e J Y be i n g wa y ou t t h e re i n

i n . . . s uc h a d i s ta n c e awa y f rom t he c i ty . I t ' s a l r i g h t . i t ' s a l r i g h t

fo r peop l e B r i g h ton , bu t wha t ' s t he ma t te r w i t h t he p eop l e i n I ro n d e quo i t ?

So , t hey sa i d some d a y we ' l l have one t h e re . We l l , t ha t ' s � l i t t l e am b i t i o u s .

Q . Ye s . I u nd e r s t a n d t ha t t he re ' s s t i 1 1 a l o t o f money t o be pa i d o f f o n t he

one i n B r i g h ton .

A . I t h i n k so . I t h i n k so .

Q . Do you you r se l f u se t he Commu n i t y C en t e r ?

A . No . I ' m 82 yea r s o l d ! I t ' s a n e f fo r t fo r me to go f rom here to t he co r n e r

l e t a l one wa y o u t t he r e . ( Laug h t e r ) And o f c ou r se , m y d r i v i ng . I have to

l i m i t m y s e l f on t he d r i v i n g , too . My eye s a r e not a s good as t he y s hou l d be ,

so I on l y d r i ve ce r ta i n t i me s o f t he d a y when t he t ra f f i c i s l i g h t . And I

don ' t d r i ve � t n i g h t . Mo s t o f t he a c t i v i t i e s t h a t t he y have i s a t n i g h t .

So . I t mea n s t h a t some bod y e l se wou l d have to ta k e me , o r e l se I ' d have to

g e t a ca b or some t h i ng l i ke t ha t . So . I ' d l i ke to be l on g . I u s ed t o b e l ong

to t he o l d J Y . I u sed t o go to t h e g ym a n d t h e hea l t h room . I wa s a member

t he r e fo r many yea r s .

a c t i ve one . D r i n k u p .

I s t i 1 1 am a mem be r , b u t a ve r y

I ' m s u re you mu s t b e a s t h i r s t y a s

n o t muc h o f a n

�m .

Q . (U n i n te l l i g i b l e ) I t h i n k t he l a s t t i me , we ta l ked a b i t a bo u t you r own

J ew i s h educa t i on a n d t ha t of you r fam i l y , bu t how do yo u t h i n k J ew i s h ed uca t i on

ha s c ha n g ed he r e i n Roc he s t e r ?

A . I t h i n k i t ' s i mp roved . I t h i n k i t ' s i mp roved t o a g r ea t exten t . T he re wa s a

p e r i od t he re when i t wa s a wfu l l y bad . When I f i r s t c�me to Roc he s te r t he r e

we re a n um b e r of wha t we c a l l ed Ta l ma Tora h s . A Ta l ma To r� h i s a p l � ce o f

l ea r n i n g fo r c h i l d r en . A n d t he r e we r e q u i te a f e w o f t hem . Eve ry . . . eve ry

synagogue had a .

educa t i on wa s n o t

some t h i n g o f � Ta l ma To r a h con n ec te d w i t h i t . Bu t , t he

. wa s not a s we l I d on e a s i t ' s d one today . t h i n k t ha t

I n t e rv i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i n d Page 4 4

A . ( Con t i n ued ) t he J ew i s h e d u c� t i ona l s y s t em t ha t t he y ha ve i s rea ) 1 y f i ne .

8 1 r i t h Kod e s h t u r n s ou t some n i ce , we l l - ed u c� ted k i d s i n J ew i s h a n d i n

He b rew. An d so does B e t h E l . The re s t o f t hem do n o t have Ta l ma To ra h s

a n ymo re . I f t he y do ha ve t hem , t he y ' r e hav i ng a roug h t i me w i t h t h em .

Q . F i na n c i a l i y .

A . Ye a h . The H i l l e l Sc hoo l wa s q u i te a n i ce i dea . Bu t I ' ve neve r been c l o s e

enoug h t o t he H i l l e l Sc hoo l to know exa c t l y wha t how t hey d i d ope ra te .

Now t he H i l l e l S c hoo l ope ra te s . . . t he y u s ed to ha ve a b u i l d i ng on Ea s t

Ave n ue .

Q . I t h i n k a C a t h o l i c S c hoo l bou g h t t h a t b u i l d i ng o r some t h i n g a f t e rwa rd s .

A . No . I t h i n k i t . . . i s n ' t t ha t whe r e t he a p a r tmen t i s b u i l t ?

Q. Ma y b e so .

A . Yea h . I know I u s ed t o 1 i ve o n Ea s t Aven u e , a n d Lowen t h a l I i ved nex t d oo r

to me . And h e so l d h i s l a nd , a s l ong � s t he l a n d of t h e H i l l e l Sc hoo l wen t

to t ha t � pa r tme n t hou s e . B u t I don ' t t h i n k t he y we r e a b l e t o s u p po r t i t

f i n a n c i a l l y . A l ot o f t he s e Con se rva t i ve J ews who d i d a g rea t dea l for t ha t

s o r t o f t h i ng , have e i t he r moved a wa y o r pa s s ed on . And we don ' t ha ve t ha t

k i nd o f con c en t ra te d e f fo r t . I t ' s mo s t l y by t he O r t hodox J ews . I t ' s c ha n ged

a l o t ! Now 8 ' r i t h Kod e s h , I t h i n k , ha s t he f i ne s t H e b rew Sc hoo l i n t he

comm u n i t y . And , i t ' s f a r f rom . . . I t ' s Re fo rmed o f co u r s e , bu t t hey do g i ve

t he k i d s a b road J ew i s h ed u ca t i on . T h e educa t i on t ha t I go t whe n I g o t one

when we f i r s t came to Roc h e s t e r i n 1900 , wa s p re t t y bad . I t wa s O r t hodox .

R i g i d . And k i d s t ha t we r e c om i n g f rom fam i l i e s where a l l o f t he s u d den t hey

go t f r eedom of s peec h , t he y wou l d n ' t go . ( La ug h t e r ) And t hey had a rou g h

t i me o f i t . . T h e r e u s e d to b e a s c hoo l a t t he co r n e r o f J o sep h Ave n u e a n d

S t e p ha n i e P l a c e . I t h a d a b i g ya rd . . t ha t a f t e rwa rd s became t he N u s b a um ' s

p rope r ty whe re t hey had t he i r b u s i n e s s . And . . . I remember I wen t to t ha t

I n t e rv i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i nd

A . ( Con t i n ue d ) s c hoo l . And t he ra b b i s we r e a ! I E u ropea n s u s i ng t he r i g i d form

o f educa t i ng k i d s . I f t hey cou l d n ' t g e t i t t h roug h ea r s , t he y ' d g e t i t t h roug h

t he i r ba c ks i d e s . And , i t d i d n ' t wo r k . T h o s e s c hoo l s a l l fe l l b y t he wa y s i d e .

The k i d s wou l dn 1 t s ta n d fo r t ha t k i nd o f non sen s e . And be s i d e s , t h i s wa s

ex t ra - c u r r i c u l a r . For t h e f i r s t t i me , t he se k i d s had to go to p u b ! i c s c hoo l s

a n d t hey wen t to Heb rew S c hoo l .

Q. Whe r e i n Eu rop e , p a r t i c u l a r l y 1 i ke Po l a n d a n d R u s s i a , t he He b r ew Sc hoo l m i g h t

have been t he o n 1 y . . .

A . We l l , t he H e b r ew Sc hoo l wa s t h e on l y s c hoo l t h ey wen t to .

Q . Y e s .

A . Oh , s up po s e i n t he b i g g e r c i t i e s , t he r e ' s some d i f fe re nc e . Bu t mos t o f

t he peop l e t h a t c a m e to Roc he s te r o r came t o Ame r i ca , came f rom t he 1 i t t l e

s h t e t i l s , yo u know , whe r e ed u ca t i on wa s n o t . . . A man m i g h t be a b l e t o

r e 9 d i n He b re w , rea d t he who l e To ra h . . . a n d he c ou l d n ' t add up two a n d

two ma ke fou r , y o u know? Tha t wa s n ' t i n t he i r f i e l d .

Q . B u t t he e d u ca t i on now ha s become mo re organ i zed . . .

A . We l l , tod a y o f c ou r s e , t he k i d s a re i n t he s c i en ce s , a n d i n the a l l of t he

o t he r c u r r i c u l um t ha t t he educa t i ona l s y s tem ha s . T he y g e t a l l t ha t . I n

a d d i t i on t o t ha t t ha t t he y g e t i n p u b ! i c e d u ca t i on , t he y ge t t h i s f rom t he

Heb rew Sc hoo l s wh i c h i s ove r a nd a bove t he re s t o f i t . I t ha s some mean i ng to

J ews . I don ' t know i f i t ha s a n y mean i ng o t he rw i s e .

Q . Do you t h i n k t ha t t h e J ew i s h Comm un i ty a s a who l e . w i l l con t i n ue t o s up po r t

J ew i s h ed u ca t i on , f i na nc i a l l y ? I mean , t ha t t he r e a r e con s ta n t l y p ro b T em s

t he r e .

A . I don 1 t know. We ' re 1 i v i n g here i n o u r ( un i n te l l i g i b l e ) wh i c h i s a comp a r i

t i ve l y you n g expe r i e n ce , a nd i f Ame r i ca n l i fe s y s tem w i l l be a b l e to ma i n ta i n

i t..s e l f , I t h i n k t ha t J ews w i l l go i ng on f re e i ng t hemse l ve s f rom t he o l d

I n t e rv i ew w i t h Ha r ry S u s k i n d P a g e 4 6

A . ( Con t i n ued ) E u ropean t h i ng s t ha t they exp e r i e nced . And I be l i e ve t ha t t h e y ' I I

become f r e e r a n d f ree r i n t he i r a b i l i t y to a d a p t to a g e n e r � J s y s tem . Mo s t

o f these d i v i s i on s a re p l a ced b y a m� t t e r o f fo rce f rom t he top . T he y had to

do i t t ha t wa y . They u s ed to d i v i d e a n d con q ue r . And of cou r s e , when t ha t

k i n d o f a t heo r y doe s n ' t ex i s t , I i mag i ne t h e J ews to a g rea t ex ten t , d i s s i mu

l a te . Maybe n o t . . . t h a t d oe s n ' t mea n t ha t t h ey ' re go i n g d rop J ew i s h re i i

g i on . Bu t i t mea n s t ha t i t w i l l c h a n g e . I t w i l l c hange . A l l t he s e re l i g i on s

a r e expe r i e n c i n g t he s a me t h i ng . The C a t ha ! i c re i i g i o n i s expe r i en c i n g t ha t >

too .

Q. Ye s . The p r i e s t s ma r ry i ng a n d . . .

A . Yea h , you s ee a l l so r t s o f t h i n g s . h a p pe n i ng wh i c h f i f t y yea r s a g o , you wou l d ' ve

t ho u g h t i mp o s s i b l e . Whe n I wa s a l i t t l e k i d , when I u s ed to pa s s a c hu rc h , a

C a t ho l i c C h u rc h , I u sed to ho l d m y b r ea t h . T h<!! t 1 s r i g h t . U n t i l I g o t p a s sed

i t � ( La ug h t e r ) You we re � f ra i d you m i g h t b e con t a m i n a ted , you know? B u t

t ha t so r t o f t h i n g keep s o n c ha n g i n g . I t ' s g ra d ua l J y . you d on 1 t even

rea l l y n o t i ce i t . You <!l c c e p t t he s e t h i n g s . I remem ber a t i me when we l i v i ng

n ex t doo r to m y fa t he r ' s hou s e on G ra n d S t re e t . I t wa s the fam i l y Go l dman . He

wa s supposed to ha ve been one o f t he mo s t fo rm i da b l e men i n t he O r t hodox J ew i s h

I i fe i n Roc he s te r . T h e t r u t h o f t he m<!l t t e r i s t ha t t h e who l e fam i l y m i g ra t ed

to I s ra e l . B u t t he y had a b i g fam i l y of boy s . . Rue ben Go l dman who ' s a n

a t to r ney s t i I I . I saw h i m a few wee k s a g o a t t he B e t h E l . He n ow I i ve s

d own i n F l o r i da . Rue ben Go l dma n . Mo s t o f t he re s t of t h e boy s b i g

fam i l y o f boys , have p a s s ed awa y . I g ue s s t he re ' s a r a b b i , <!I Go l dma n boy i n

I s rae l . An d I remembe r t he t i me when t ho se boy s , you know , t he ho i l e s t d a y

o f a ! I i s ca l J ed Yom K i pp u r , <!! nd t he y wou l d t he f a t h e r wo u l d s t a y i n

s h u ! a l l d a y l ong p ra y i n g . And you don ' t ea t on t ha t d <!! y . T he boys knew

t ha t t he fa t he r a n d mo t he r ha d n ' t ea t en a l l d a y , so t he y ' d d r i ve t he ca r down

I n t e rv i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i nd Page 4 7

A . ( Con t i n ued ) a n d s t a y t h e re a ro u n d t he c o r n e r o f Ba yden S t re e t s o i t wa s n ' t i n

s i g h t of t he s yna gogue . And a s soon a s t he s e r v i ce s we re ove r , t hey ' d ge t

t hem o u t i n to t ha t ca r � n d ba n g . go home . S o t he y cou l d ea t , you know?

O h , t ha t t h i n g i s n ' t done a nymo re . B u t t h i n g s a re c ha ng i ng . T h i ng s a r e

c ha n g i ng . Even O r t hodox Temp l e s ha ve � p l a c e f o r p a r k i ng . T h e o l d s to ry

goe s a round t h a t t he . I . hea rd . I t wa s a p p l i ed to a ce r ta i n i n d i v i d ua l

t hat I won ' t men t i on , b u t he had a boy com i ng to t he i r hou s e e ve r y d a y , a n d he

t houg h t he wa s a C h r i s t i a n boy . Eve r y Sa t u rd a y t o 1 i g h t t he f i r e . I n t h o s e

d a y s you had f u r n � c e s , a n d you know, you ' d h�ve to l i g h t t � f i re s beca u s e you

cou l d n ' t l i g h t i t on Sa t u rd a y . On e d a y t h e k i d s a i d t o t h i s J ew i s h man , he

sa y s , n ex t Sa t u rd a y I c an ' t com e . Why ? I g o t my Ba r M i t va h . Th i s k i n d o f

i l l u s t ra t e s wha t I ' m t r y i ng t o sa y .

Q . You men t i on ed t he one fam i l y t ha t i mm i g ra ted to I s ra e l . I wa s j u s t won d e r i ng

wha t . . . a bo u t t he Z i on i s t o rg a n i za t i on s he r e i n Roc he s t e r , 1 i ke t h e Labor

Z i on i s t s .

A . I n ever wa s ve r y c l o se t o t ha t a n d know v e r y I i t t l e a bo u t i t .

ex i s t , a n d I wa s neve r a Z i on i s t , a n d I am n o t a Z i o n i s t now.

know t he y

ha ve too much

of a s oc i a l i s t ba c kg round to a c c e p t Z i on i sm . I n o t h e r wo r d s , s oc i a l i sm wa s

s u ppo s ed to ha ve t h e t heo ry o f i n t e rna t i on a l i sm , � n d c e r ta i n l y Z i on i sm doe s n ' t

s ta n d fo r i n t e r na t i on a l i sm . S o I n eve r wa s a Z i on i s t , � n d I d on ' t even know

how to exp r e s s i t . B u t when . . . when wha t happened i n G e rma n y came on , no

J ew c o u l d be a n y t h i ng bu t fo r a some t h i n g t ha t t h e y cou l d re l y on so t ha t

t h i ngs 1 i ke H i t l e r . . . so t ha t t h i ng s 1 I ke wha t H i t l e r b rou g h t a bo u t , ca n ' t

happen a g a i n . So t ha t even i f we d i dn ' t be l i e ve i n Z i on i sm a s s u c h , we had

to go a l on g w i t h t he Z i on i s t i d ea o f a home l a n d fo r J ews by cond i t i on s t ha t we re

fo rced on u s ou t s i d e of ou r own a b i l i t y to d e t e rm i ne i t . k now a man t h.!! t

wa s a J ew , a n d he read i n t h e newspa pe r s wha t wa s go i ng on i n G e rma n y . How cou l d

I n te r v i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i nd

A . ( Con t i n ued ) h e b e oppo sed t o t h o s e who be l i e ve i n a home l a n d fo r Jews ? He

cou l d n 1 t accep t i t a s a human be i n g a t a l 1. And I t h i n k i t 1 s been good fo r

t he wo r l d t ha t i f t he J ew s have t h a t home l a nd . I t ha s s hown wha t s ma l l p eop l e

cou l d do . H e r e we re peop l e who we r e n o t even p e rm i t ted to own l a n d i n

Ru s s i a . We re de f i n i t e l y n o t fa r me r s . Cou l d n 1 t be by v i r t ue o f t he l a ws t ha t

ex i s t ed i n t he s e coun t r i e s f rom wh i c h t h e y came . And t he y g o a n d t a k e a p i ece

of l a n d l i ke I s ra e l , u n d eve l oped , �nd m a ke a g a rden o f i t . T h i s t he y d i d .

T h e re 1 s no d e n y i n g fac t s . So t h e y have s e t � n examp l e fo r t he wo r l d t ha t i t

a c t ua l l y ca n be done by a s ma l l n a t i on . B y a s ma l l peop l e . They l ove f r eedom .

l t 1 s i n t he i r l a nd . They be l i e ve i n equa l i t y . They have l a bo r un i on s t he re .

They have t he mo s t d emoc ra t i c n a t i on , I t h i n k , i n t h e wo r l d . B e J. i e ve i n t h i ng s

t ha t we ha ven 1 t accep ted yet , b u t even t u a l l y we w i l l . T hey 1 ve s hown courage .

T he y 1 ve s hown so m uc h , a n d when you t h i n k a bo u t t he S ta t e o f I s ra e l , wha t a

1 i t t l e p i ece o f l a nd i t i s !

Q . l t 1 s v e r y t i n y .

A . l t 1 s n ot h i n g ! l t 1 s a l i t t l e p i ece o f l a n d , a s l i ve r . An d t he who l e wo r l d i s

d e ba t i n g a s to whe t h e r t hey s ho u l d l e t · t h em h a ve i t o r not . remem be r P h i 1

B e rn s t i en wro t e a boo k , you p ro ba b l y read i t , on wha t t he J ew i s h peop l e . be l i eve .

And . . . wha t i s a J ew? Ce r t a i n l y J ews were J ews l on g before t hey e ven had

a n a t i on . J ews be l i eved i n p ra y i n g fo r n ex t yea r i n J e r u s a l em . I t 1 s pa r t of

t he i r p r a ye r s . Eve ry p raye r e n d s w i t h t ha t . And ye t , he re we have J e r u sa l em

t h i n k we have J e r u sa l em , no Ame r i ca n - J ew pa r t i cu l a r l y wa n t s t o go to

I s ra e 1 . l t 1 s not on l y a J ew i s h . g ue s s , i t 1 s a peop l e . T ha t 1 s wha t P h i l

B e r n s t i en came up w i t h . You know h e d e s i g n a t ed t o t ha t wa y . The J ew s t ha t

a re f a r removed f rom t he i r r e l i g i on , fa r a wa y f rom o t he r J ews , when you g e t

r i g h t down t o i t , t he y 1 r e J ews .

Q . A cu l t u r e o f peop l e a n d n o t j u s t a . . .

I n t e rv i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i nd PC� ge 4 9

A . We me t two peop l e . . . w e me t two peop l e . . . I wa s i n B l a c k I s l a n d l a s t

wee k , a n d we me t two peop l e t he r e , o l de r peop l e , who . . s he wa s a

t hey we re bo t h G e rma n , bo t h came f rom . . . he wa s , you cou l d t e l I he wa s a

we l l - ed u ca t ed ma n and f rom t he uppe r c l a s s e s the re . P ro ba b l y a good , r ea l

( U n known ) . And s he wa s one - fo u r t h J ew i s h . An d I don ' t know, t ha t p roba b l y

mea n s t ha t one o f he r g ra n d p a r en t s wa s J ew i s h . On e- fou r t h . H e r fa t he r wa s

a med i ca l d oc to r , a nd s he . . . we l l , t he y we re t r y i n g to g e t he r to be a

p i an i s t , a n d s he wa s a . good one , became a doc to r . He wa n t ed to ma r ry he r a n d

he cou l d n ' t , bec a u s e s he wa s o n e- fou r t h J ew i s h . A n d h e wa s p u t i n to a con

c en t ra t i on camp .

Q. H e wa s ?

A . Yea h . Beca u se h e i n s i s te d o n ma r r y i ng h e r . We l l , he go t o u t o f t ha t . And

t he y bo t h came to Ame r i ca . S h e had a p ra c t i ce on . . . i n New Yo r k C i t y on ,

I t h i n k i t wa s Mad i son Ave n u e . S he ' s a g e n e r a l p ra c t i on e r . Of cou r s e , n ow

s he doesn ' t do a n y t h i ng . T hey l i ve on B l a c k I s l a n d , t hey ha ve fo r a l ong

t i m e , and t h a t ' s a n i ce ( u n k nown ) p l a c e . T hey I i ve tog e t he r . S h e doe s

p a i n t i n g , a n d h e does a l 1 k i n d s o f f a n c y g l a s s wo r k , a n d d i ffe ren t a r t i s t i c

t h i ng s . They ' re n o t wea l t h y , I don 1 t t h i n k . Eno u g h j u s t t o g e t b y . The y ' re

two o l d p eo p l e now. So , s he ' s one fou r t h . s he ' s a J ew . S he ha d to g e t

t he he l l ou t o f G e rma n y . So , f o r t he i r own p ro tec t i on , I t h i n k t he we s te r n

wo r l d p a r t i c u l a r l y , i f t he y ' re c i v i l i z ed a t a l I , s hou l d f i g h t for 1 i t t l e

I s ra e l . Beca u s e i f i t h a p p e n s to one , i t c a n h a ppen to a n o t her . Look wha t ' s

go i n g on t he re i n . . . i n L e ba n on whe r e t he Le banon e s e , t he A r a b s a re

a n d t he C h r i s t i a n s a re f i g h t i n g a n d k i l l i n g e a c h o t he r o f f . Wh i c h i s t he same

k i n d of a t h i n g . These d i v i s i on s a re s i l l y . Y e t , t h i s i s wha t ' s h a p p e n i n g

i n , t h i s wo r l d a l l t he t i me . So , for a n exam p l e of cou rage a n d a b i l i t y to

f i g h t for wha t yo u t h i n k i s r i g h t , I s ra e l s t a n d s o u t l i ke a l i t t l e s h i n i n g

I n t e rv i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i n d Page 5 0

A. ( C on t i n ued ) l i g ht . S he 1 s a l i t t l e l i g h t at t he e n d o f t he t un n e l : We l l ,

I w i s h I cou l d te l l you some mo re a bo u t Roc hes t e r J ew r y .

Q . You 1 ve g i ven me . .

A . H u h ?

Q . You 1 ve g i ven u s a l ot o f i n fo rma t i on .

A . Ha ve I ?

Q . Oh , ye s .

A . T h i ng s t h a t t hey hadn 1 t known a bo u t , t h i ng s t hey 1 d forg o t ten ?

Q . Yes , a n d t h i ng s t ha t we re n o t emp ha s i zed o r o u t o f p r opo r t i on , o r ove remp ha s i zed .

A . We l l , you know , J o s e p h Ave n ue i s 1 i ke a s a g a . When I f i r s t came to Roc h e s t e r ,

I wa s a 1 i t t l e k i d . My mo t he r o r my a u n t who l i ve s i n Roc hes t e r a t t h a t t i me ,

wo u l d n 1 t l e t me c ro s s J o s ep h Avenue w i t ho u t ho l d i ng on to my hand fo r fea r

1 1 d g e t s t u c k i n t he mud on t he o t he r s i de o f t he c ro s swa l k . T r ue . And l 1 ve

I i ved to go t h ro ug h t ha t f rom how many t i me s J o s ep h Avenue wa s repa ved . I t

ha d s t re e t ca r t ra c k s on t he re , and i t had t he t ro l l i e s , a n d i t ha d b u s e s .

F i na l l y , I g ue s s t h e re 1 s j u s t one bu s r u n s down . Now , a l l t h a t p rope r t y ha s

been w i p ed ou t w i t h u r ban ren ewa l , a n d I 1 ve 1 i ved t h roug h t ha t ep i c .

Q . So you 1 ve been a s soc i a ted w i t h t he B a y d e n S t re e t . . .

A . I s een i t g o f rom n ot h i ng t o some t h i n g d own t o no t h i n g aga i n .

Q . I t a l mo s t seem s 1 i ke i t 1 s g o n e t ha t wa y .

A . Y ea h , t ha t 1 s t he way i t i s .

Q . B l oc ks and b l oc k s of open s p a c e .

A . I 1 i ved t h ro ug h on J o s e p h Ave n u e . . . I remem ber when we h a d to g o to t h e

o l d ra i l road s ta t 1 on , N e w Yo r k C en t ra l , wa s o n t he we s t s i d e o f C l i n ton Aven ue .

Now i t 1 s on t he ea s t s i de . And i t u s ed to be a sma l l ra i l road s ta t i on . Then

I remem ber wha t . . . o h , wha t when on i n Roc he s t e r when t hey bu i l t t ha t g rea t

b i g N ew Yor k Cen t ra l S t a t i on . And I saw i t go d own to wh a t i t i s toda y . l t 1 s

I n te rv i ew w i t h Ha r r y S u s k i n d Page 5 1

A . ( C on t i n ued ) wo rse tod a y t hen wha t i t wa s .

Q . Ye s . Yes , I know t ha t ra i l road s t a t i on wa s famo u s .

A . O h , yes . We l l , i t ' s happened i n many o t h e r c i t i e s t ha t had bea u t i f u l s t a t i on s

t ha t wen t t o noth i ng . C i n c i n n a t i had on e . Wha t o t h e r c i t i e s d i d I see i t .

S t . Lou i s had a bea u t i fu l s t a t i on . And t h ey ' re a l l I n t he same s ha p e . B u t

Roc hes te r ' s s ta t i on wen t d own w i t h t he ra i l road s . Yea h . When w e came t o

Roc hes t e r , i t wa s t he New Yo r k C en t ra l a n d H ud son R i ve r Ra i I roa d . The n t he re

wa s t he We s t S ho re . The o n e t ha t wen t d own on the we s t s ho re of t he H u d s o n

R i ve r t o go . to N e w Yo r k . Yea h . We l l , i f t h e re ' s a n y q ue s t i on s you ' re gonna

a s k . . . a s k . 1 1 I I t ry t o a n swe r t he m .

Q . J u s t a bou t . . s c r a tc h i ng m y head beca u s e we t a l ked a g re a t dea l l a s t t i me .

A l t houg h some o f i t wa s l o s t , mo s t o f i t i s t he r e .

A . I s i t ?

Q . Yes . And

A. P ro ba b l y g e t some d u p l i ca t i on h e re . You ' 1 1 have to c u t t ha t ou t you r se l ve s .

Q . B u t you me n t i oned l a s t t i me how t h e ro l e o f Bayden S t ree t ha s c ha n ged . I t u s ed

to be to make Ame r i ca n s ou t o f i mm i g ra n t s a n d now i t s eem s to be . . .

A . T r y i n g to c ha n g e the l i fe pa t te rn o f Ame r i c a n s . B eca u se a f t e r a l 1 , b l a c k

peop l e a r e Ame r i ca n s .

Q . I see t h e r e ' s a l mo s t been a comp l e te s h i f t f rom t he s up p o r t t ha t wa s _on c e

Ba yden S t ree t ( un i n te l l i g i b l e ) .

A . B u t you know , I ' ve l i ved t h roug h a t remendo u s g rowt h I n t ha t . I d on ' t wa n t

t o p u t myse l f d own a s a n expe r t , b u t when I r v i ng C re e k s fe l d wa s t he d i rec to r

o f t he Bayden S t reet S e t t l emen t , h e wa s a v e r y e n e rge t i c p e r son a n d he ha d

ve ry i n nova t i ve i d ea s . A n d I remem b e r when t he b l a c k p eop l e s ta r ted se t t l i ng

heav i l y i n t he seven t h a n d e i g h t h wa rd . P r i o r to t ha t , t he r e h�d ha rd l y been

any b l a c k peop l e t h e re . B u t , a f t e r Wo r l d Wa r I , t he y s ta r ted com i n g up . An d

I n t e rv i ew w i t h Ha r ry S u s k i n d Page 5 2

A . (C on t i n ued ) t he a rea became . . . s ta r t ed to g e t b l a c k . And , o h , t hey were

rea l l y poo r . They we r e ba d , a n d t he y we re not i n good s ha p e a t a l l . A n d

I rv i ng C re ed s fe l d sa i d t o me one da y , he s ay s , yo u know , we oug h t t o s t a r t

a n e i g h bo r hood commu n i t y counc i l s o t he s e peop l e can pa r ta ke i n t he s e t h i ng s

t h a t a re go i ng on a n d exp re s s t hem s e l ve s , a n d be p a r t o f t h e commun i ty .

t houg h t t h a t wa s a good i dea . A n d so wen t a head a n d s ta r t ed o rgan i z i ng i t .

And I remembe r t he f i r s t m e e t i n g we had . We ca l l e d a me e t i n g . We made i t

noon ove r i n t he N um b e r N i ne S c hoo l , no , t he r e wa s go i ng to be a meet i ng .

And we p roc l a i med i t a l l o ve r . We p r i n t ed l ea f l e t s , I t h i n k , a nd p u t them

i n s t o re w i ndows and a l 1 t h a t s o r t of t h i ng . And I r emembe r i t wa s a n

even i n g i n· Ma r c h , a nd i t wa s c o l d , r a i n y , we t , m i s e ra b l e n i g h t . A n d we ha d

t h i s f i r s t mee t i ng a t t h e Bayden S t r ee t Se t t l eme n t . And I t h i n k the re we r e

a b o u t fo u r o r f i ve b l a c k women t ha t c a m e t o t h i s mee t i ng a f te r a l l t h i s e f fo r t .

Bu t you know , i t wou l d b r ea k you r hea r t to s ee how poor t hey we r e . How bad l y

d re s s ed t he y we r e i n t h i s i n c l emen t wea t he r . Comp l e t e l y i na r t i c u l a t e . I ' m

s u r e t he y had t houg h t s , bu t t he y ma de n o e f fo r t to exp re s s t hem . So we we r e

ta l k i n g a t t hem . F rom t h i s ha d d eve l op ed , t h o ug h , a bea u t i f u l o rgan i za t i on .

They pa r took i n t he mod e l c i t i e s , t h e y we re ve r y a c t i ve i n . . t he y ca l l ed

t he Nor t hea s t Counc i l . C ha n ge d t he name . And yo u s e e t he r e p eop l e who . .

I ' ve gon e t o t he i r m ee t i n g s , so I know . . . we l l - d r e s s ed , ve r y a r t i c u l a te ,

ve ry unde r s t a n d i ng o f t he i r own p ro b l em s . And . . t he re ha s been a c ha n g e .

when I ' m ta l k i ng a bou t t h e s e I t ' s comp l e te l y d i ffe ren t . B u t r emembe r

d a y s w i t h I r v i ng C re e k s fe l d o h , t ha t m u s t be t h i r t y- f i ve yea r s ago .

So i t ' s d i f fe re n t . I s e e a l o t of t he s e fe l l ows go u p to t he C hamber of

Comme rce .

one .

Exa c t

I ' I I s ee t h i s on e ' s i n p o l i t i c s , a nd t h i s on e ' s a l awye r , a n d t h i s

So , you see , i t ' s t he same d a r n t h i n g go i n g r i g h t a l l ove r aga i n .

even t ho s e t he s e peop l e c ame f rom t h e so u t h , f rom C a r o l i n a , o r


A . ( Con t i n ued ) whe re ha ve you , t he i r p ro b l em s a re p ro ba b l y t he same a s t he

p ro b l em s t ha t t he J ews h a d . Exc ep t t hey took on d i f f e re n t a s pec t s . B u t t hey

had . . . i t wa s a q ues t i on o f re t ra i n i ng , a d j u s tmen t s .

Q . Wa sn ' t F I G HT w i t h ( U n i n t e l l i g i b l e ) ?

A . I don ' t know wha t F I G HT d i d . I t h i n k wha t F I G HT d i d wa s opened u p some

oppo r t u n i t i e s . B u t I d on ' t t h i n k t h a t F I G HT made some of t he s e p eo p l e tha t

came up no r t h f rom t h e sou t h , deve l op i n t o l awye r s , a n d docto r s , a n d d e n t i s t s ,

a n d po l i t i ca l . . p o l i t i ca l l y w i s e p eop l e g e t t i ng j o b s . A J ot o f t h em a re

wo r k i ng now i n l a rge i nd u s t r i a l p l an t s . I don ' t t h i n k wha t F I G HT d i d ha s

opened up . i t d i d s ome s p a d e wo r k . Opened u p t h e g round wo r k . B u t , you

ha ve to d eve l op a w i l l i n t he peop l e t hem s e l ve s to d o fo r t h em s e l ve s . And

t h i n k t h a t g ra d ua l l y had i t s a f fec t , a n d t h e r e i s a g rea t n umbe r of b l a c k

p eop l e who a re s ucce s s fu l . T h e y ' re d o i ng ve ry we l l , have moved o u t o f t he

a rea . They ' r e no l on g e r l i v i n g i n t ha t s ec l uded a rea t he r e of J o s e p h Ave n u e .

Not by a n y mea n s . Of co u r s e , t h e r e ' s s t i I I a l o t o f p rope r t y . . . a g rea t

wa y s to go , bu t t h a t ' s n o t a s t r i c t l y a l oca l p ro b l em . T h a t ' s na t i on w i d e .

Tha t ' s n a t i onw i d e . I won d e r . . . I o f t en t ho u g h t a bo u t i t . I remember when

t he I t a l i a n s f i r s t c ame to Ame r i ca . An d t h e f i r s t t h i ng t hey d i d , t he y we re

g i ven t he p i c k a n d s hove l . Beca u s e eve r y t re n c h t ha t wa s d ug , eve r y sewe r t ha t

wa s l a i d , wa s l a i d w i t h s wea t . Ha rd , ha rd l a bo r . And i f i t had been t he

b l a c k peop l e t h a t had c ome u p a t t h a t t i me a n d we d i d n ' t ha ve i mp roved ma c h i ne ry

a n d eve ry t h i ng e l se , i t wou l d be t hey t h a t wo u l d be d o i ng those t h i ng s .

Q . The I r i s h l i ke t he I r i s h , t oo , t h a t came f i f t y yea r s befo re t ha t .

A . O h , s u re . They bu i l t t he ra i l road s .

Q . Yes .

A . They bu i l t t he ra i l road s . An d t he n , o f cou r s e , f rom o t h e r coun t r i e s I i ke

Po l a n d , L i t hua n i a n , t hey wo r ke d i n t he m i n e s . Beca u se t ha t ' s wha t t hey d i d i n

I n t e r v i ew w i t h Ha r ry Su s k i nd

A . ( Con t i n ued ) t he o l d coun t ry . S i l e s i a . Now you t a ke a round the coa l a rea ,

a round Penn s y l va n i a , mo s t l y S l a v s . I t s eem s t ha t t hese peop l e b roug h t w i t h

t hem . n t he o l d coun t ry t h ey n e ve r had a c ha n c e to g e t o u t of t he m i ne s .

They s ta yed i n t he m i ne s , bu t he re , w i t h f re ed om , t h e y cou l d g e t ou t o f the

m i n e s , eve n t ua l l y . Not ea s y . B u t a l o t o f t hem had done i t .

Q . I t ' s a l mo s t t he s ame a s i s t r u e w i t h t he J ew i s h i mm i g ra n t s t ha t had been

ta i l o r s and s ma l l b u s i n e s smen .

A . T ha t ' s r i g h t . You know i n N ew Y o r k C i t y ? Mo s t l y t he y we re i n t he ta i l o r i ng

bu s i ne s s . . .

E N D O F TAPE I I , S I D E I I , I NTERV I EW I I

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