How White America Got Rich

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Abagond

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How White America got rich

Thu 25 Feb 2010 by abagond

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How did White America become so rich? Those hard-working, pull-themselves-up-by-their-bootstrapWhite Americans experienced at leastthree windfallsin their history:

Land:The largest piece of virgin farm land in the world as of 1500, more farm land than in all ofChina! White Americans took it from Native Americans at low cost.

1.

Labour:at cut rates from people of colour: slaves, coolies, migrant workers, Mexican nannies andlandscapers, etc. Blacks are stillmarkedly underpaid even when you take education into account.

2.

Money:much of the wealth of the British Empire. The British Empire went broke fighting Hitler.Where do you think most of that money went? To America, nearly all of it to White Americans (see#2).

3.

And that is not all.I am sure readers can think of a few more.

White America got rich | Abagond http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/how-white-ameri

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So White Americanswho think it was all just a matter of hard work and the right values are missingthe bigger picture.

And even the narrower picture:As much as White Americans like to narrow history to just their ownfamily (My family never owned slaves, My grandfather came to America with $25 in his pocket), theyare forgetting even that little bit of history: if hard work and the right values were enough, then why onearth did their forefathers leave Europe to live the rest of their lives in a foreign land across the ocean?Because they knew that hard work and the right values were not enough in themselves, not by a long

shot.

There are white countries, and even some Asian ones, where people are just as well offas WhiteAmericans without enjoying any of these windfalls. What about them? Some of them had empires oftheir own. Even Belgium once ruled the Congo. As for the others, like Norway or Switzerland, it is hardto believe they would have got so rich without America and all the wealth that poured into Europe fromthe white empires.

Given that white people ruled most of the world in 1900and are now so rich it is profoundlydishonest to believe:

It was just a matter of brains, hard work and clean living.1.It was because white people are just a cut above people of colour, like it or not.2.

White Americans like to believe that stuff because:

It appeals to their white pride (which they deny they have);1.It fits their racist picture of the world (which they think is just seeing the world as it is);2.It covers over their dirty, ugly history of how they got so rich.3.

If whites are just naturally better than othersthen they would have been rich and powerful allthroughout history, or at least most of it, not just during chance bits of it like now and in the time ofRome (which also got rich by robbing and ruling other lands).

Andif it is just a matter brains, hard work and clean living, then why all the slaves and deadnatives?

See also:

white people (../2008/07/05/white-people/)white pride (../2009/12/29/white-pride/)The white lens (../2009/11/13/the-white-lens/)

The white inventor argument (../2009/11/06/the-white-inventor-argument/)It was the times! (../2010/02/20/it-was-the-times/) and it is stillthe times (../2010/02/24/my-family-never-owned-slaves/)My family never owned slaves (../2010/02/24/my-family-never-owned-slaves/)

American history books and racism (../2010/02/17/american-history-books-and-racism/)British Empire (../2006/06/10/british-empire/)guns, germs and steel (../2009/11/09/guns-germs-and-steel/)

Posted in stuff | 256 Comments


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256 Responses

MiraThis is a nice post but, like many others, I dont think it would reach white people who needto know (or think, at least) about these things.

However, even if they start thinking- the next question is: now what? How to really changesomething? (And when I say really, I mean really- not in a way of political correctness and similarstuff).

HathorWhat gets me is when some well to do Blacks reinforce white beliefs and imply that onlythemselves have worked hard and those other Negroes havent.

Patricia KaydenGood post,

But what about White privilege? Some Whites would argue that their ancestors came overhere with pennies in their pockets and just the clothing on their back, but were able to do well andlive the American dream.

I believe that White privilege, combined with anti-Black racism, explains why so many dirt poorEuropeans were able to come here with next-to-nothing, but do well in a few decades.

White privilege means that for generations Whites got the best jobs, were allowed to live in the bestcommunities, hold political office, etc., while Blacks were prohibited BY LAW from doing the same inmuch of early American history. This happened even in the so called free North.

To this day, there are some Black families who just now have one member graduating frominstitutions of higher education, or owning a home, etc.

BLACKkittenROARThere are white countries, and even some Asian ones, where people are just as well offas White Americans without enjoying any of these windfalls. What about them? Some of

them had empires of their own. Even Belgium once ruled the Congo. As for the others,like Canada or Switzerland, it is hard to believe they would have got so rich without America andall the wealth that poured into Europe from the white empires.

Im really confused as to why you believe Canada is as well off as America, but somehow has acleaner past. Like America, Canada robbed the First Nations of their land, committed genocidal actsagainst the First Nations (50% of Native Children sent to residential schools diedand it wasmandatory by law that they be sent) and still to this day does not respect or provide the same basicfundamental human rights to the First Nations people (despite what you may have been led tobelieve from the bit of propaganda which was the Olympic opening ceremonies):


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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6637396204037343133&hl=en#

As for the labour aspect, Canada does indeed have slavery in its past, but its very much downplayein our history:

http://apastdenied.ca/

Many of the first Blacks in Nova Scotia were brought to this country via Jamaica to be slaves. Evenwhen I was in high school, we did learn that there was African slaves in Quebec, but because of theclimate many of them died so they enslaved the First Nations to do their labour instead.

Canada is not the Utopian multicultural nation it would like the world to believe it is. Multiculturalism almost more detrimental and dangerous than blatant racism because it takes the stance that racismis caused by cultural differences, and that if multiculturalism is embraced, then there would be noracism This simply just isnt true.

As for the third windfall being money made from war, I cant really speak to, because I dont reallyhave a clue. But certainly the vast amounts of natural resources Canada has, has made it a very richcountry (our water is piped to the US to water your golf courses)

abagondBlack Kitten Roar:

Excellent comment. Thank you. You are right, Canada is a bad example of an innocentcountry. I will replace it with Norway.

dimplesHow white got rich? .

From centuries of Lying, stealing, robbing, raping and manipulation. They got into the mindsof other and the rest is history.


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abagondPatricia:

Right, there is white privilege too. The post is not meant to list everything. For example, theadvantages the come from American world power were left out. That is why I wrote, And that is notall. I am sure readers can think of a few more.

BLACKkittenROARAbagond:

Thank you. So often white Canadians like to forget about its role as a colonial power andpretend that we as a country are perfect. Even our current Prime Minister has been quoted as havinthis belief that somehow we as a country have no blood on our hands.

The acts of genocide Canada has in its past, and the environmental racism past and present itcontinues to perpetrate needs to not be ignored.

JHow Europe Underdeveloped Africa by Walter Rodney

http://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/rodney-walter/how-europe/index.htm

abagond@ Mira and Tulio (who brought up this issue on another thead):

If White Americans read what I write and clearly some do that is great. At least they have

heard what I have to say even if they utterly disagree. Maybe it will make more sense to them downthe road. But in the main I do not write for them:

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/09/26/what-this-blog-has-taught-me-about-white-people/

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/langston-hughes-on-wanting-to-be-white/

Natasha WThanks, BlackKittenRoar for the info! I wasnt aware of all that. And very informative post,

Abagond. The rifle is just the perfect touch.

no_slappzabagond, you really really need a course in economics and another course in history.

As for Norway, it is a small country I think the population is around 9 million, only a littlelarger than the population of NY City with a homogeneous population.

Why is Norway a prosperous nation? One word: OIL.

Norway owns the oil beneath much of the North Sea. The people of Norway consume 10% of the


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bankruptcy was its high wage and benefit structure. The United Autoworkers Union dug its owngrave.

You wrote:

Blacks are still markedly underpaid even when you take education into account.

Yeah. They get the worst deals imaginable when they sign contracts to play basketball, football,

baseball and box. They get raw deals on those recording contracts and they get lousy compensatiowhen they appear in movies and on TV. Its terrible.

You wrote:

3.Money: much of the wealth of the British Empire. The British Empire went broke fighting Hitler.Where do you think most of that money went? To America, nearly all of it to White Americans

Britains wealth was handed to white Americans to fight Hitler? WWHHAATT?

Where did you get that whopper?

tulioI think the primaryreason any country gets rich, and more importantly staysrich is due to ahigh level of human capital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital

Human capital refers to the stock of competences, knowledge and personality attributesembodied in the ability to perform labor so as to produce economic value. It is the attributesgained by a worker through education and experience.

High human capital = high productivity = wealth. I think the formula is pretty much the sameanywhere. Maybe the exception are countries with vast natural resources to exploit, like the GulfStates where they can have great wealthy by luck of floating on a bed of oil and nothing more. Takeaway Saudi Arabias oil it would be another Afghanistan.

Uncle MiltonLabour: at cut rates from people of colour: slaves, coolies, migrant workers, Mexican nannies

and landscapers, etc. Blacks are still markedly underpaid even when you take education into

account.

Then it would follow then that Portugal should be the richest country in western Europe since itdominated the slave trade for almost 2 centuries. (and thus per capita derived more money than anyother European country from the slave trade and from its colonies in Macau, East Timor,Mozambique, Brazil, Angola, Goa, etc) Instead it is the poorest country in Western Europe derivinmuch of wealth from German and British tourists.

Also as colonies go, Brazil derived even more of its money from slavery and had slaves for 20 yearlonger than the US yet it has substantially less money than the US.


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sidittyI love this post because people so often forget that this is how America (read white people)typically accrued money in this country.

HathorAmerica was lucky to fight its last wars on other peoples land. WWI and WWII would havecost the US, if its cities and industrial complexes had been in ruins. America was also

fortunate to get the better scientist just before and after WWII.

no_slappz,

I wonder if you really think it is a choice of working and not working. I dont think that you ever had achoice between working and starvation.

There is quite a substantial difference between an auto workers salary and someone who nailedrailroad ties in the ground in the 19th century. That is adjusting for cost of living in the different timeperiod. I also have yet to see what the upper level management did to deserve their salaries andbonuses, which was quite a big difference between the auto worker in the same time period. Dont tr

to flim flam me, I have observed and I am not stupid or ignorant that I cant see through to those CEClothes.

I always find it very interesting when a professional from the CATO Institute argues that a laborer asan individual can negotiate their wages as a professional. It seems that this is where you have gotteyour taking points.

ColorofLuvAlso, my VP who was Black and female probably made 5 times what I made, yet I reported

directly to her. The CEO (on the technological side) of the company I worked for at the timewas of Afro-Caribbean origin and from the UK.)

As I stated before, I loved and respected my boss. She was the best damn boss Ive ever had andthat even includes people I reported to in the Military!!!

Your comments that white people tell lies and think black people are stupid is certainly not true inmy case!!! Did you realize there are actually some black people that tell lies and think white peopleare stupid?

(obviously the color of ones skin does not make anybody liars or stupid)

Uncle MiltonTo Tulio:

I think the primary reason any country gets rich, and more importantly stays rich is due to a

high level of human capital.

Yep, those are my thoughts also

Moving away from White countries look at resource poor but economically rich Japan versus


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resource rich (for many decades the largest exporter of rice..) but economically poor Thailand oreconomically rich and resource poor (almost zero..) Singapore versus much poorer economicallyMalaysia which is resource rich. The differences in the examples above would seem to be almostentirely explained by the differences in human capital.

B. R.I think facing the facts we know ( like if a white person and black person aply for the same job

or try to get the same apartment ,the white guy will get it), there is no doubt that white peoplehave huge advantages in certain areas, even with laws on the books.

But some of these huge wealth and power empires that were built off western expansion and profitsfrom slavery, were rober barons, walking over everyone in their path. They did not share the wealthwith other whites.

The recent financial crisis is a perfect example of a few huge money people exploiting many peopleand they tried to take it too far and who gets hurt is every one else but espcialy minorities asunempoyment statistics show. Whites account for more poverty in the USA than blacks. Of coursepercentage wise is a differant story.

I do beleive there are busineses that were built independent of exploitation of any one that throughhard work and fullfiling a need of that product at that time, became succesful enterprises.

Its not like a special club of whites where once you get in, every one is handshakes and winks andhelp on the way to riches.Ive been ripped off by whites in my business worse than any black personever did to me.

It is dog eat dog no matter what. The market place is cruel to everyone but of course, racism hassadled blacks with huge handicaps to overcome, and some have, quite handily.And history is replete

with plenty of examples of white cruelty and exploitation to walk over the backs of everyone to gettheir wealth, and it is passed down generation to generation.

Uncle MiltonTo Abagond and no_slappz

Abagond said:

3.Money: much of the wealth of the British Empire. The British Empire went broke fighting Hitler.Where do you think most of that money went? To America, nearly all of it to White Americans

no_slappz said:

Britains wealth was handed to white Americans to fight Hitler? WWHHAATT?

Where did you get that whopper?

Abagond is probably thinking of the Lend-Lease program:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

Although there were some initial transfer of wealth from the Soviets and the British for the most pa


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the US ended up giving most of the equipment to its allies at a substantial loss:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4757181.stm

In a nutshell, everything we got from America in World War II was free, says economic historianProfessor Mark Harrison, of Warwick University.

The post-war loan was part-driven by the Americans termination of the scheme. Under the

programme, the US had effectively donated equipment for the war effort, but anything left over inBritain at the end of hostilities and still needed would have to be paid for.

In addition after the war the Soviets basically said that given their enormous sacrifice (reasonablegiven their loss of 27 million people..) against the Germans they had no intention of repaying theirdebt to the US.

Net net.. the expenditures by the US government in WWII were very large. from fighting theJapanese in the Pacific and fighting the Germans in Europe and the post war occupation of Japanand Germany and the financial aid to much of Western Europe and certainly exceeded any financialremuneration they received from the British empire.

What was gained was a modern industrial infrastructure with basically almost no competition for oneand half decades. (In 1953 the US produced 75% of the worlds industrial items)

tulioI think facing the facts we know ( like if a white person and black person aply for the same

job or try to get the same apartment ,the white guy will get it), there is no doubt that whitepeople have huge advantages in certain areas, even with laws on the books.

Jimmy Walker, yes of Good Times fame who in his later years became an outspoken Republican

actually made a great case in favor of affirmative action, which he deemed a necessary evil. Due tothe fact that 90% of all jobs are not advertised and only found through word of mouth and socialconnections, and given that most whites are socially close only to other whites, that it will put blacksat a disadvantage.

He made a good point. The best paying and most rewarding jobs are not advertised in the classifiedthey are through referrals. Since whites have traditionally had the best jobs and most positions ofpower, when jobs open up, they are most likely to fill it through word of mouth rather than somethingdemocratic like a job ad. If fact when I think about it, whenever the boss needed to bring in morehelp, they would ask, do you know anyone that would be good for this position? They will do that

before they advertise the job. So even if companies were 100% non-racist in hiring, this still presentsa problem since society is still socially segregated and the best jobs are found through socialnetworking(where race place a factor in who you know).

no_slappzhathor, you wrote:

America was lucky to fight its last wars on other peoples land. WWI and WWII would havecost the US, if its cities and industrial complexes had been in ruins.


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America and by extension, the entire world would have been far more fortunate if Germany anJapan had abandoned their imperial goals and engaged in no wars in the 20th century.

However, the US has benefited from its location on the globe and the bodies of water around us.

You wrote:

America was also fortunate to get the better scientist just before and after WWII.

Yes. The US attracts and produces the greatest human capital.

You wrote:

no_slappz,I wonder if you really think it is a choice of working and not working. I dont think that youever had a choice between working and starvation.

It has been a long, long time since anyone in the US faced starvation. Today we have an obesityproblem. The US is not the Sudan.

You wrote:

There is quite a substantial difference between an auto workers salary and someone who nailedrailroad ties in the ground in the 19th century.

Thank god for the automobile. The golden age of railroad construction is over. Burlington Northernmay add more miles of track, but future increases will never approach the rate seen in the 19thcentury. But car production will soar. Too bad a lot of the manufacturing will occur outside the US.

You wrote:

I also have yet to see what the upper level management did to deserve their salaries and bonuses,which was quite a big difference between the auto worker in the same time period. Dont try to flimflam me, I have observed and I am not stupid or ignorant that I cant see through to those CEOClothes.

The UAW should have bought GM years ago. Then the union would have only itself to blame for thecompanys collapse. Actually managing the company would have made it clear to the union thatmanagement takes skill. But, in fact, the UAW understood this reality. Thats why the union wasnever willing to buy all the common stock and run the show, then distribute all the profits to the unionmembers.


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Eurasian Sensation@ no_slappzyou wrote:

News flash. The Natives had no claim to the land that Colonists were obliged to honor. That maysound harsh, but thats reality.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?

Dude, that is ridiculous, even for you.

leigh204@Eurasian Sensation:

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?

Dude, that is ridiculous, even for you.

Were talking about no_slappz here. lol!Ridiculous is his middle name.

Eurasian Sensation@leigh204:

I know, but still that surprised me. No one can be that ideologically blinded, surely. Ormaybe they can.

leigh204@Eurasian Sensation:

He reminds me of those types who are too stubborn for their own good no matter what.

leigh204Anyway, we have to try to keep it on the down low. We wouldnt want Mr. Ridiculous,overinflated sense of self to think anything he says is actually worth discussing, now wouldwe?

Hathorno_slappz,

It has been a long, long time since anyone in the US faced starvation.

You need to pay attention and get out more in the US.

Natasha W


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^^LOL. Truly amazing. Thanks, Hathor for quoting that or else I wouldnt have read it. Thathas to be up there for one of the dumbest statements ever made on this blog.

leigh204@Natasha W:

lol! Consider the source. Haha.

Mira@Abagond

If White Americans read what I write and clearly some do that is great. At least they have

heard what I have to say even if they utterly disagree. Maybe it will make more sense to them down

the road. But in the main I do not write for them.

I know you dont write for them, but I cant help thinking it would be great to have white Americansread it and hear their responses. I dont think white Americans (or whites in general) read this blog o

offer their comments, which is something that surprises me. There are a few of them, but only a fewand, sadly, comments are often less than constructive.

no_slappzhathor, I wrote:

It has been a long, long time since anyone in the US faced starvation.

You responded:


You seem to be among the misinformed or the uncomprehending people who think starvation is thsame as hungry.

For various reasons there are some people in the US who do not get enough to eat.

BUT there is NO starvation.

However, since you believe otherwise, you should give me an example of someone in America whostarved to death in the last 100 years.

I suppose you can find an example of some crazy person who chained his child to a radiator andrefused to feed him.

But aside from a case like that, in the US there is NO STARVATION.

Natasha WMira

My SO reads this blog from time to time. He doesmt feel the need to comment. He is slightly


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put off by the generalizations made about white people, like 95 percent of white people are racist,and he thinks if I keep reading this blog I will end up hating white people and leave him (never!). Andhe is probably one of the more open-minded white people Ive met, if not the most. So I thinksometimes white people may not like the general tone of the blog or they might be hesitant tocomment.

no_slappz

eurasian sensation, I wrote:

News flash. The Natives had no claim to the land that Colonists were obliged to honor. Thatmay sound harsh, but thats reality.

You responded:

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!? Dude, that is ridiculous, even for you.

You really need to grasp the concept that until relatively recently, control of land went to those withthe biggest guns.

You can pretend to be aghast at the ways of the world, but the facts are the facts for centuries, thface of the world was changed by conquest, starting with the earliest moments in recorded history.

Now that the entire planet is settled and sovereignty has been established, there are no new lands tconquer. These days, only minor border changes occur.

Not long ago Yugoslavia was one country. Now it is three. There was West Germany and EastGermany following WWII. Now there is only Germany.

Meanwhile, during WWII Russia seized the Karelia, part of Finland. A region rich in natural

resources. Finland is still waiting for the return of this real estate.

Iraq rolled into Kuwait and seized it, but was able to hold it only briefly.

The USSR was one nation comprising many republics. Now all the former soviet republics areindependent nations.

The establishment of almost every nation in the middle east was handled by the British in the firsthalf of the 20th century. Before that, the entire region was like Afghanistan wild and ungoverned.

You really need to understand the history of humanity was, for a few centuries, largely about the

projection of force around the globe. Then, in the second half of the 20th century, it became muchmore about trade.

But with nuclear weapons falling into the hands of the crackpot Iranians, projecting power around theplanet will return to its priority role.

no_slappzuncle milton,

If abagond was thinking of the Lend-Lease program which I doubt then, as usual, he got


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the story all wrong.

He seems to have a reflex that causes him to conclude any action involving the white powerstructures of the US is corrupt, criminal and racist.

HathorNO-slappz,

Since you want to parse the language.

Look up the definition and understand the logical difference of the use of or.

ThadOK, so heres a question.

If slavery is so immensely profitable, why isnt Brazil a superpower by now? We wereundeniably the largest slave-based economy in the Americas.

So.?

no_slappzabagond, I have two ideas for you.

How about two more Thought Experiments?

Try this one. What would Africa be like today if whites had never colonized the continent?

Heres another idea. What would the world be like today if black slaves had never been shipped tothe West?

no_slappzhathor,

As I said, in the US there is NO STARVATION.

Are there hungry people? Yes. But NO ONE in this country is in danger of starving to death.

Like I said, we have an obesity problem, and it is most obvious in the minority population thepoorest segment of America.

no_slappzThad is correct, if slavery correlates directly with national wealth, why is Brazil still athird-world nation?

Obviously national wealth is the result of human productivity. But slaves have almost no value in aneconomy that depends on advanced skills and education.


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Moreover, virtually every function slaves once performed can now be handled by machines that aremany times more efficient and much less costly than human workers.

The Industrial Revolution and mandatory education of children made the difference. Of course thenature of the education makes a big difference.

I get the feeling that too many blacks believe that by studying enough black history, somehow thatactivity will produce competent black scientists and engineers.

Unfortunately, until blacks overcome their general aversion to science and math, Africa and otherlargely black regions will remain economic backwaters dependent on the goodwill of white nations.

Mira@Natasha W

So I think sometimes white people may not like the general tone of the blog or they might be

hesitant to comment.

True. Well, all the websites get much more general hits than comments, and yes, I guess whitepeople do visit this blog, but choose not to comment.

However, while there are many generalizations here, Abagonds blog is very well written and it doesseem like a place that offers an opportunity for a discussion and benefit of the doubt.

As for generalizations, I think there are much more generalizations about women than about thewhite people (though I might be biased here- I identify myself more as being a woman than beingwhite, so maybe I dont pay that much attention on stereotypes about white people).

Natasha WMira

As for generalizations, I think there are much more generalizations about women than about

the white people (though I might be biased here- I identify myself more as being a woman than being

white, so maybe I dont pay that much attention on stereotypes about white people).

I arrived here a little before the end of last year and I liked the blog, so I decided to begin reading itfrom the beginning. I noticed as time went along, posts about women became less and less frequenand the posts regarding race relations became more frequent. These posts are also more popular afar as comments, and some of the commenters have strong views on these issues.

ThadI would guess that most white people, having no ecuation about racism at all veyond what theDisney Channel feeds them, dont comment because they feel insulted.


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ThadActually, theres a reason the U.S. got rich off of slavery and Brazil did not, but I wonder ifanyone else around here knows it.

HathorNo_slappz,

Starvation does not mean absolute death. It can mean to suffer from hunger.

What on earth do mean that the African has an aversion to science an math? You have absolutely nproof. Or is this a projection?

Perhaps because I am a woman, I havent seen any employer care if you are good at science andmath unless you can claim the magic Negro title. They will hire you , but it wont advance you. Itseems the more you are a critical thinker, the more you are seen as a disruptive negro. Heavenforbid if you can out think their Wunderkind. That puts you in the backwater.

There is a lot of innovation taking place in Africa. Just not on the scale that would satisfy your marke

friends.

abagond@ Mira and Natasha W:

I think Thad is right: some of what I say turns off white people. I could guard my words andmaybe get more white commenters but that would go against my philosophy of writing.

Mira

@Thad

I would guess that most white people, having no ecuation about racism at all veyond what the

Disney Channel feeds them, dont comment because they feel insulted.

Thad, I understand youre an atheist (agnostic?), so I get your comments about God. But Disney???

Do you truly believe it has THAT much influence on Americans like religion? Or perhaps you meanon something more general?

Also, Abagonds posts are much less insulting than one might expect from this type of blogs, so Ireally dont get. If I were a white American wanting to discuss race issues, Id definitely choose thisblog to comment.

@Natasha W

Now that you mentioned it, there seems to be less and less posts about women. I wonder why. Notthat I miss those posts. (Even though I must admit I didnt mind them as much as Id like to mindthem- as a thick woman, something in me liked the fact hes talking very positively about given bodyshape And yes, I am ashamed of that, but if were honest here (we are, arent we?), I must admit


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it).

Natasha Wabagond, yes, I know. If my SO is offended, I could only imagine what most white peope arethinking when they read this blog. I could imagine many dont come back after their first visit.

leigh204@abagond:

I think Thad is right: some of what I say turns off white people. I could guard my words andmaybe get more white commenters but that would go against my philosophy of writing.

Agreed. The posters I find, who happen to be white people, who totally get what youre saying areMira and Macon D. Im sure there are others, but they dont come to mind right now. They have abetter understanding of where youre coming from. Others just blow it off.

abagondBrazil used to be richer than America, at least if you go by exports. That was in the 1700swhen the big money was in sugar. BUT most of the money made by Brazilian slaves went toEurope, not to Brazil. Brazil was a colony, remember.

What makes America different is that while the South was a colony in the style of Haiti or Brazil abig money-making operation for the benefit of Europe the North, particularly New England, was no

Whites came to New England not to get rich but to start the world over again according to theirreligion. It was just what it called itself: a NEW England. A new England planted in North America.

And so its game was very different: it wanted to take control of the trade between America andEngland, not merely take part in it. Which it did in time. And so more of the profits from slave labourstayed inside America than was the case with Brazil.

The North made money not just from the trade in tobacco and cotton but earlier from the trade inslaves.

Natasha WMira,

Also, Abagonds posts are much less insulting than one might expect from this type of blogs,so I really dont get. If I were a white American wanting to discuss race issues, Id definitely choose

this blog to comment.

What do you mean this type of blog? When I came here I wasnt under the impression that this wasa blog solely for discussing race and racial issues, and many of the initial posts werent on thesetopics.

Now that you mentioned it, there seems to be less and less posts about women. I wonder why. Not

that I miss those posts. (Even though I must admit I didnt mind them as much as Id like to mind

them- as a thick woman, something in me liked the fact hes talking very positively about given body


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shape And yes, I am ashamed of that, but if were honest here (we are, arent we?), I must admit

it).

Lol, he can leave out the posts about women. I had to give my SO the side-eye one time I saw himogling a photo of Toccara Jones from abagonds post on her.

abagond

Brazil and virgin farm land: it had some too, of course, but America had nearly three timesmore.

abagondLeigh said:

Agreed. The posters I find, who happen to be white people, who totally get what youre

saying are Mira and Macon D. Im sure there are others, but they dont come to mind right now. They

have a better understanding of where youre coming from. Others just blow it off.

LMAO.

Mira is not White American or even Anglo, so she has no racist white pride to defend:

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/12/29/white-pride/

As for Macon D, for a while I thought he was Adam Mansbach:

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/adam-mansbach/

abagondI find it curious how white commenters seem to have this strange need to see slavery as amoney-losing operation.

abagondNatasha W said:

abagond, yes, I know. If my SO is offended, I could only imagine what most white peope are

thinking when they read this blog. I could imagine many dont come back after their first visit.

Wow, worse than I thought.

Mira@Natasha W

What do you mean this type of blog?

Good question. I guess by this type of blog I meant blog discussing race issues. Youre right:many posts are not about race (or women for that matter), but the first ones I found were about raceissues. (I found the site vie Google search, I think the exact search was white men and black


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women- I wanted to see why that combination is considered less common than white woman/blacman one).

Natasha Wabagond, its because they dont want to feel like bad people. And this blog makes them feelthat way. It makes them feel guilty and uncomfortable to read all these posts and commentsabout white people. Of those that dont feel guilty, many probably think you are blowing issues

out of proportion. So you just get the white supremacists to comment.

Although I do recall a white female commenter from days past called Dedabets. I wonder whereshe went.

Mira, I came here via Google too. I searched for race and dating, and came upon the ColumbiaUniversity study post. But, interestingly enough, I wasnt googling regarding my relationship, butbecause of a comment that one of our white male friends made, Im not attracted to black women.Period. Its a preference. Ive heard such comments before, but never so bluntly, so I decided to seewhat the general consensus was.

leigh204@abagond:

LMAO.

Mira is not White American or even Anglo, so she has no racist white pride to defend:

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/12/29/white-pride/

As for Macon D, for a while I thought he was Adam Mansbach:

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/adam-mansbach/

Understood. My point is, Mira and Macon D are not your typical white commenters arguing for thesake of arguing.

ThadI could guard my words and maybe get more white commenters but that would go against my

philosophy of writing.

Why bother? It aint like theyre gonna listen anyhow. :/

ThadDo you truly believe it has THAT much influence on Americans like religion? Or perhaps you

mean on something more general?

Well, not THAT much more general. Youd be surprised to learn how many edutainment pies Disneyhas thumbs in.

Two words which will help illustrate this point: Touchstone Pictures.


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But in general, I mean a happy all thats in the past now kind of gloss on racism.

ThadThe posters I find, who happen to be white people, who totally get what youre saying areMira

and Macon D.

Sorry. I find Macon D to be a bit of an agony sister. Hes not an educator: it seems to me that hes

ascribed to himself the role of white man who knows all there is to know about other white peoplesracism and chooses to use that role to shake his finger at white people he thinks are acting poorly.

Thats a very comfortable position for him to be in, especially as its anonymous. I dont think he caneven conceive of discussing race with someone whose ideas dont match his, which in terms offighting racism makes him something of a zero to the left of the decimal point.

Also, Macons site to me seems to be simply a listing o memes regarding race. Discussion becomesa sort of competition between who can cite said memes quiskest and fastest.

The discussion were having about the Irish, for example, is a very crucial piece of the racism puzzle

for me, white trash being traditionally considered degenerate in racial terms and the Irish being theepitome of this. This discussion would neveroccur over on Macons site because someone wouldsimply say Oh, the Irish as slaves argument! Shut up, you evil racist you! and that would be that.

I think Macon believes that he knows all there is to know about race and that hes one hell of a whiteguy for being that way.

I could never imagine Macon, for example, saying one single thing about race that doesnt follow aclosely scripted line which involves clear-cut good guys and clear-cut bad guys.

Natasha WThad, I never got that impression from Macon D. He seemed fairly open-minded. Then again,I was never a regular of his blog and only heard about it via this blog.

ThadAbagond sez:Brazil used to be richer than America, at least if you go by exports. That was in the 1700s

when the big money was in sugar. BUT most of the money made by Brazilian slaves went to

Europe, not to Brazil. Brazil was a colony, remember.

As was the U.S. in the 1700s, remember. Brazil became effectively independent in 1809, 20 yearsafter the U.S. Length of the colonial period thus wasnt the problem here.

What makes America different is that while the South was a colony in the style of Haiti or Brazil a

big money-making operation for the benefit of Europe the North, particularly New England, was no

Whites came to New England not to get rich but to start the world over again according to their

religion. It was just what it called itself: a NEW England. A new England planted in North America.

And so its game was very different: it wanted to take control of the trade between America and

England, not merely take part in it. Which it did in time. And so more of the profits from slave labour


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stayed inside America than was the case with Brazil.

Exactly.

I hate to say this, but No_Slappz is fundamentally correct, Abagond: outside of a few very specialcircumstances, slavery pretty much is a money-loser over the medium and long-term. Money loser tthe slave owners, that is. There are excellent sociological and economic reasons for this, the mainone being that it is far more economically rational to purchase labor power than the laborers

themselves.

The people who make money on slavery are the merchants: the folks who sell the slaves and sell thslave owners all their consumable goods. The folks who buy the output of the plantations andtransform it into industrial goods.

In the case of the U.S., the North AS WELL as Britain fulfilled this role, so the country itself becamerich well the south basically bled itself dry or would have if slavery had gone on much longer.

In Brazil, everything went to the Brits and this was long before independence. Many Brazilianeconomists, in fact, claim that it was Brazilian gold which financed the British industrial revolution.

Thats quite plausible, seeing as how the economic movement between Brazil and Britain in the earl19th century was 4 or 5 times larger than the movement between Britain and the entire Indiansubcontinent.

ThadThis is one of the problems with the White are _____ thesis, which weve argued about backand forth ever since I showed up here.

There are a series of different structural positions within slavery and, later, racism and they all needto be filled in order for the machine to work. Cursing all whites as, essentially, slaveholders edits outthe class and intra-ethnic struggles which were going on and which, in fact, made some of the moreugly aspects of racism possible.

By situating poor free whites (who were rarely free in any substantial sense of the word) assuperior to blacks, the folks who really made hay off the slavery system were able to keep thegame going by assuring an essentially split laboring class.

Racism only makes useful political and sociological sense when its integrated into a world view thatsees its intersections with all the other isms: sexism and classism in particular. Without that kind ofintersectionalist view, anti-racism loses any revolutionary potential in might have and becomes just

another form of petite-bourgeosie moaning about rights as if any rights actually existedindependent of our political and economic system.

MiraTrue, true, Disney is everywhere and it does shape many peoples opinions, all over theworld. I must admit I like some of their animated movies (I know, I know). Luckily, I think Ididnt understand them when I was a kid- so the potential way they shaped MY opinionsmight not be so bad.

But I dont think its just about Disney. They are powerful, but not THAT powerful. Theyre obviously


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making and selling something people were ready to buy because that was something they alreadybelieved in, or an image they already had about themselves.

MiraSpeaking of non-racist whites (those 5% or so, according to Abagond ), I do think theressome sort of competition to prove your anti-racism. Nothing wrong in being anti-racist, weare all trying to be that (arent we?), but to push that as some sort of proving how generally

good and nice person you are- I think its pointless and bad and missing the point.

If you want to have a non-white friend (or boyfriend) to show that black people like you- thats badand youre missing the point. If you go to race or black blogs to hear black people tell you youre noa racist- thats bad and youre missing the point. In other words, if you discuss these issues notbecause of the issues, but to get approval from non-white people and an anti-racist gold medal-thats bad and youre missing the point. Its not really about you. Even if you truly arent racist, itdoesnt mean anybody should talk about it- its not really that important.

So, as much as I appreciate leighs comment about me not being a typical white commenter, I donthink I should be proud of it. I mean, I am glad someone said a nice thing about me (at least I seeits meant to be a nice thing- correct me if Im wrong), but it doesnt really make me proud in a wayooooh, non-white people like me and my comments, so that means I am really not a racist, so itmeans Im a nice person. Yes, I am being sarcastic, but sometimes I do think white people aredesperate to be called non-racists, as if that is the most important thing when discussing race issues

Being non-racist doesnt really mean youre a good person. Sure, ones lack of racism is a goodthing, but you can still be a bad human being for all we know. I am not sure if the opposite is possibl(to be a racist but otherwise decent human)- but Im trying to say being anti-racist doesntautomatically make you a good person. (Not to mention that commenting on a race blog doesntreally make you anti-racist in the first place).

dimplesThey were criminals when they came. Europeans cast those criminals out of Europe. Theydid not come as hard working people. They came as manipulaters, rapist, murders, androbbers.

no_slappzmira, you wrote:

I do think white people are desperate to be called non-racists, as if that is the mostimportant thing when discussing race issues.

If you really believe this, you are woefully out of touch. Most white Americans have almost zerocontact with blacks, and therefore devote almost zero time to considering racial issues.

JamaicafestAbagond said:My grandfather came to America with $25 in his pocket), they are forgetting even that little


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bit of history: if hard work and the right values were enough, then why on earth did their forefathersleave Europe to live the rest of their lives in a foreign land across the ocean? Because they knew thahard work and the right values were not enough in themselves, not by a long shot.

Many European countries were very rigidly class bound so people were unable to achieve socialmobility even if they were willing to work hard and had the right values. America is not as classbound as Europe was and therefore people were able to find opportunities to progress regardless otheir status.

To further illustrate my point, I live in Jamaica which is still a rigidly class bound society where sociaconnections determine ones ability to achieve success. My grandparents ex-gardener (a blackJamaican) went to Florida in the 1980s and started buying old houses, fixing them up and selling at profit. He owns a house with a swimming pool and a Mercedes Benz. In all likelihood he would notattained this kind of upward mobility had he stayed in Jamaica.

leigh204@Mira:

From what I have read of a lot of your comments on abagonds blog, you seem (to me) thatyoure sincere and respectful when responding to others. I also like how you ask genuine questionsto increase your understanding regarding peoples experiences/views. Your contributions to this blogare much appreciated.

no_slappzHathor, you wrote:

Starvation does not mean absolute death. It can mean to suffer from hunger.

Keep trying. The US is not the Sudan. In this country there are no swollen bellies sticking out ofundernourished kids. I repeat, in the US we have an OBESITY problem.

You asked:

What on earth do mean that the African has an aversion to science an math? You have absolutelyno proof.

No proof? Really. Virtually no blacks pursue careers in science or engineering. Almost no blacks getPhds in a long list of technical areas.

The avoidance starts early. Math SAT scores of black students are significantly lower than mathscores of whites and asians. Moreover, blacks are less likely than whites and asians to take the SATand graduate from college. Hence the math/science weakness is understated.

You wrote:

Perhaps because I am a woman, I havent seen any employer care if you are good at science andmath unless you can claim the magic Negro title.

Oh. Your statement makes it clear that even you believe no blacks enter the fields of science or


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engineering. Otherwise, you would realize that, if a person were an engineer or scientist, hisknowledge of science and math would be crucial.

You wrote:

They will hire you , but it wont advance you. It seems the more you are a critical thinker, the moreyou are seen as a disruptive negro. Heaven forbid if you can out think their Wunderkind. That putsyou in the backwater.

Apparently you believe scientists and engineers merely devote their days to pounding round pegsinto round holes.

You wrote:

There is a lot of innovation taking place in Africa.

False. Unfortunately, Africans have proven they are unable to re-invent the wheel.

Moreover, the thug leaders are ensuring the continuation of staggering infant mortality rates and the

unchecked spread of most water-borne diseases problems that were long ago overcome in thewhite world.

You wrote:

Just not on the scale that would satisfy your market friends.

Scale is not the issue. It is the utter lack of innovation that is the problem. Im still waiting for newsof that first prosperous and educated black nation, where there are scientists, engineers, doctors,lawyers, professors, world-class colleges, companies manufacturing advanced goods and cleandrinking water for everyone in the country.

Tell me why Nigeria cannot emulate Norway.

JJust to say, with regard to:

the facts are the facts for centuries, the face of the world was changed by conquest,starting with the earliest moments in recorded history.

Now that the entire planet is settled and sovereignty has been established, there are no new lands t

conquer. These days, only minor border changes occur.

Maybe not for Westerners etc, ie no new lands to conquer but for the likes of Muslims as per yourblog etc there is also the possibilty of re-conquering. I am sure even you may have to concede thisis a sort of dialectical process, which will probably go on for ever


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Hathorno_slappz,

And you automatically assumed that I am a secretary.

Hathorno-slappz,

I am surprised you havent quoted Ann Coulter or William Shockley.


And you automatically assumed that I am a secretary.

I assumed exactly NOTHING about your employment. But like or not, your comment revealed plentyabout your thoughts.

Herneith@Hathor:


How can he when hes holed up in a mental institution?

@slappz:

You seem to be among the misinformed or the uncomprehending people who think starvation is thesame as hungry.

Yes you are right. Last night I went to the local dumpster, dove in and managed to rustle up a meal,the things people throw away! It wasnt bad! I used a a lighter to cook the meal. But hey, I wasstarving, er no, I was hungry.

For various reasons there are some people in the US who do not get enough to eat.

Yes I wonder why? Not enough dumpsters I guess. Go to the rich areas, they throw out a lot of greafood. Keep an eye out for the cops though.

You really need to grasp the concept that until relatively recently, control of land went to those withth

biggest guns.

Like in a John Wayne movie?

You can pretend to be aghast at the ways of the world, but the facts are the facts for centuries, th

face of the world was changed by conquest, starting with the earliest moments in recorded history.

Two wrongs dont make a right but they sure as hell makes you even! Good advice! Im going to beathe sh$t out of my neighbour! He keeps throwing garbage onto my side of the property. When I go to


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court, that will be my defense. Looky here Judge, that gearbox keeps throwing garbage onto myproperty, why last week I was almost decapitated by a plexi-glass sun window when it dislodged anflew off his roof! According to Mr. slappz, I can take actions as vigilantism has been around sinceforever as had murder, pillaging and rapine! I am only conquering his ability to throw garbage ontomy property! Of course Ill appeal my conviction, wish me luck!

Before that, the entire region was like Afghanistan wild and ungoverned.

That sounds romantic! I bet they could get many best selling bodice rippers out of that! Plenty of talof his mighty sword!

He seems to have a reflex that causes him to conclude any action involving the white power

structures of the US is corrupt, criminal and racist.

No, it is his sphincter reflex when reading your posts! It induces gaseous responses in him as it doesothers. It is indicative of what you are full of as it elicits these physical responses as well asunremitting laughter. It is no mistake that you take on the moniker slappz, you are a laugh a minuteand a half! Thanks.

Try this one. What would Africa be like today if whites had never colonized the continent?

What would you be like if you were black? I know! You would be arguing the reverse!

Moreover, virtually every function slaves once performed can now be handled by machines that are

many times more efficient and much less costly than human workers.

Like in the Transformer movies? No thanks!

Thad is correct, if slavery correlates directly with national wealth, why is Brazil still a third-world

nation?

Only the phantom knows!

Unfortunately, until blacks overcome their general aversion to science and math, Africa and other

largely black regions will remain economic backwaters dependent on the goodwill of white nations

Bring in the athletes with slappz as the coach!


Give him time!

OptimusI agree with the statement that this blog is talking about the rich people in America (who havelargely been white), and not about everyone. And it is true that probably all nations have asordid history, but the rich ones (like America) are big targets for this sort of discussion(because a lot of people know about America). This blog is about some white Americans, andcomments have derailed the discussion into a diatribe about black countries/people which hasnothing to do with Abagonds assertionthis topic (rightly or wrongly) is about white Americans. I dothink it is naive (at best) for anyone to claim they succeeded *all alone* using their trusty bootstrapswhen everyone has had assistance from someone (some had to hire that person for a job, someone


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had to sell them a house, and a lot of times connections come from ones friends).



Coulter has a sharp wit and is remarkably accurate with many of her commentaries.Its interesting that you mention Shockley. When blacks drop his name, they seem to express theview that he was no more than the sum of his views on race. It is unlikely more than a few of hisblack critics know anything about his lifes work.

Meanwhile, where are the black physicists? The black guys working on the next generation ofsemiconductors?

By the way, if there were a starvation problem in the US, the National Geographic Magazine wouldhave been all over it decades and decades ago. Along with Life, Look, Time, Newsweek, and every

other media venue capable of stirring up a storm about suffering in the land of plenty.

But even in the poorest, most remote and alienated parts of the US, everyone seems to eat.

HerneithBut even in the poorest, most remote and alienated parts of the US, everyone seems to eat.

The dumpsters are full of tasty tidbits if you cant afford groceries. A lighter to heat up the foodcosts a dollar. There is also road kill for your protein requirements. I have heard that rat meat tasteslike rabbit or chicken. You can cut off the rotted parts of the vegetables you get from the dumpster

when making the rat stew! Sometimes a restaurant will give you throwaway food if nothing else but tget you the hell away from there as it is bad for business!

Natasha WHerneith, LMAO. You always have me in stitches with your comments.

OptimusI apologize Abagond if this is off topic. However, I have to say I dont think that black guyshave to have a particular profession/job; thats part of having the freedom to employ oneselfat whatever legal work one chooses. ***I know this post was about America so please deleteif off topic***

Herneith@NatashaW:

This man lends himself to ridicule. In fact I am grateful to him as he allows me to hone andrefine my written comedic skills. thanks Slappz!


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no_slappzJ, you wrote:

Maybe not for Westerners etc, ie no new lands to conquer but for the likes of Muslims asper your blog etc there is also the possibilty of re-conquering.

Muslims have no chance of re-conquering the world, though it is obvious that is the goal Islam. In

short, few members of the modern world are willing to reverse course and turn back the clock tomuhammads 7th Century.

If Islam were to take the world to a brighter future, that might change things. But the muslim clownswould rather spread misery and backwardness.

Fortunately, in all the ways that matter, muslims are incompetent. Iran may make the fatal mistake oattempting its own brand of nuclear mayhem which will subject it to a punishing Pyrrhic Loss.

I think the question muslims are now debating is whether Obama, as a former muslim, is anapostate. Or will he re-emerge as one of muhammads followers?

Hopefully Obamas softness on muslim lunacy, his socialist agenda, and his bungling of almost everone of his stated goals will bring about his defeat in 2012. Given his weakening support after onlyone year in office, it will take a lot for him to win re-election.

You wrote:

I am sure even you may have to concede this is a sort of dialectical process, which will probably gon for ever

Yes, we can count on continued conflict. But more democracy and capitalism is the best way to

reduce problems.

no_slappzherneith,

Even though you are attempting to ridicule me, I would laugh if you were able to deliver afunny crack. But you lack that talent.

Heres a clue. Humor is best defined as a sense of the incongruous.

HerneithI am sure even you may have to concede this is a sort of dialectical process, which will

probably go on for ever

Yes, we can count on continued conflict. But more democracy and capitalism is the best way to

reduce problems.But even in the poorest, most remote and alienated parts of the US, everyone

seems to eat.

I think he is referring to your mode of argument, not the topic itself


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HerneithEven though you are attempting to ridicule me, I would laugh if you were able to deliver a

funny crack. But you lack that talent.


Why slappz, you have just described yourself to a t, incongruous!

JThanks!!

ThadHopefully Obamas softness on muslim lunacy, his socialist agenda, and his bungling of

almost every one of his stated goals will bring about his defeat in 2012. Given his weakening

support after only one year in office, it will take a lot for him to win re-election.

Actually, i almost agree with you.

Obamas probably the most level-headed preisdent the U.S. has had for years. 8 years of Bushcreated two wars, isolation of the States from its traditional allies and an economic collapse thatsbordering on a new great depression.

I think 8 more years of Republicans would finally pretty much drive the United States into the groundwhich would probably be overall a good thing for the rest of the world.

Thad

I mean, presuming that ones an anti-imperialist, voting Republican would seem to be theway to go.

Hathorno_slappz,


Are you admitting to being incongruous?

Since you know my thoughts, then you must know that they approach the truth differently that yours

I knew a Black physicist that was treated so badly that he decided to get a law degree. I knew Blackstudents that were good in math and science, but looked to alternative careers, one even became aminister. You look at raw test scores and dont see the individuals who have the education, testscores, but choose not to be the first or the person that has to overcome the perceptions of being nogood enough. There are a lot of Black people who are scientist, but are not celebrities, I have workewith them. The jobs they have are very mundane, doing repetitive analysis day after day. Amongthem are many white folk in the same bolt. Most scientist are not superstars or make the salaries ofmost MBAs. There isnt a lot of incentive to become a scientist, when a business degree is valued


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more. Math people are getting IT degrees.

I think that you know this and like being the unique Negro, so you have to be contrary.

peanutgreed is just something that has kept those in power in power. at the end of the day you canhave all the material wealth and still be empty inside

Uncle MiltonTo Thad:

Actually, theres a reason the U.S. got rich off of slavery and Brazil did not, but I wonder if

anyone else around here knows it.

Well the US Civil war sort of hit the reset button on the wealth from slaves. I have read that some ofcities in the US South before the war were very wealthy. Lincoln offered to pay off the Southern slavholders (as the British did previously with Jamaica..) but the Southerners refused. They enjoyed thei

vile racket and the wealth it produced.

As for the wealth sent to Britain by the slave trade, as Abagond acknowledged it was basically wipeout by WWII and as I have pointed it was not transferred to the US. Whatever wealth the Germansand Japanese had from their colonies (Germany had a few African colonies before WWI..) was wipeout by the devastating effects of WWI and WWII for Germany and WWII for Japan.

To Abagond:Brazil used to be richer than America, at least if you go by exports. That was in the 1700s when th

big m oney was in s ugar. BUT most o f the mon ey made by B razi l ian slaves went to Europ e,

no t to Brazi l . Brazi l was a colon y, remember.

Brazil was a Portuguese colony in the 1700s so I would presume that the bulk of the money went toPortugal. (Thad said some money went to the British but in the 19th century went Brazil wasindependent) For all of the wealth that Portugal achieved through near monopolization of the slavetrade for two centuries and its colonies seems to have dissipated since it is the poorest of WesternEuropean countries.

I find it curious how white commenters seem to have this strange need to see slavery as a money-

losing operation.

Is that comment directed at me..? If so I never said such a thing. Of course some people mademoney off slavery and the slave trade. What I do assert is that slavery (and its milder Europeanvariant serfdom) was a poor economic enterprise relative to other economic endeavors using paidlabor.

Moving away from White countries (ok maybe off-White..?) we can talk about Turkey, the heart of thOttoman Empire which lasted longer than the British Empire. They had slaves, engaged in slavetrading, demanded tribute from their vassals yet it ranks at the same level as Mexico in GDP percapita.


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Uncle MiltonTo Abagond:

I find it curious how white commenters seem to have this strange need to see slavery as a

money-losing operation.

Who Started the Triangular Trade?

For two hundred years, 1440-1640, Portugal had a monopoly on the export of slaves from Africa. It inotable that they were also the last European country to abolish the institution although, likeFrance, it still continued to work former slaves as contract laborers, which they called libertos orengags temps. It is estimated that during the 4 1/2 centuries of the trans-Atlantic slave trade,Portugal was responsible for transporting over 4.5 million Africans (roughly 40% of the total).

GDP Per capita:Western European countries never involved in the slave trade:10 Finland 45,87611 Austria 45,09012 Sweden 43,147

Number 1 country (especially per capita) involved in the slave trade Portugal:

Portugal 20,655

Dead last for Western Europe below the Bahamas and Slovenia. (That number is as high as it isbecause of Portugals admission to the EU..)

Robbery (Gold) Pillage, Plunder, and Slavery may make some people in a country very rich but Ithink screws it up royally in the long run.

Uncle MiltonTo Thad:

I mean, presuming that ones an anti-imperialist, voting Republican would seem to be the way

to go.

The US (in my opinion..) in heading for a protracted financial crisis as is the rest of the OECD. I justthink Bush and company made things bubble up faster. A friend of mine who was running for mayorof his home town had a slogan that went This town is going to hell and I am to see it get there asfast a possible He placed third. I havent been in touch with him for a while maybe he went towork for the Bush administration.

JThe Swedish (including Finland) slave trade occurred in the early history of Sweden, andagain during the 17th century, around the time Swedish overseas colonies were establishedin North America (1638) and in Africa (1650). It remained legal until 1813.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_slave_trade


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ThadUncle Milton sez:Well the US Civil war sort of hit the reset button on the wealth from slaves. I have read that

some of cities in the US South before the war were very wealthy.

And every one of them was an import/export town where merchants were making buckshand-over-fist.

Its been very well shown, Milt, that slave-holders generally didnt do good for themselves. Here inbrazil, it was the importers and exporters that made up our first capitalist class. They wereconcentrated in Rio de Janeiro, another wealthy port town.

Slavery is basically clearcutting in the forest of economic activity. It can make some cash in the shorrun, but even over the mid term, it falls apart when it comes up against wage-based systems of labo

Brazil was a Portuguese colony in the 1700s so I would presume that the bulk of the money went to

Portugal. (Thad said some money went to the British but in the 19th century went Brazil was

independent)

If you really look into Brazilian colonial economics, youll see that what happened is that the wealthwent to Portugual, which immediately used it to pay off staggering trade deficits with Britain.

Check out the Metheun Treaty (Wikis take on it is predictably pro-English however):http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuen_Treaty

Robbery (Gold) Pillage, Plunder, and Slavery may make some people in a country very rich but Ithin

screws it up royally in the long run.

Basically correct, though Portugal had other problems, too.

Even today in the U.S., the southern ex-slave-holding states are generally the nations poorest.

no_slappzthad, you wrote:

Obamas probably the most level-headed preisdent the U.S. has had for years. 8 years ofBush created two wars, isolation of the States from its traditional allies and an economic collapsethats bordering on a new great depression.

Only someone with no knowledge of finance, economics, the last 40 years of US history, mixed withthe capacity to believe Bushs response to 9/11 was wrong can call Obama level-headed.

Obama, the former muslim, is beginning to look like the Manchurian Candidate.

no_slappzabagond, you wrote:

I find it curious how white commenters seem to have this strange need to see slavery as amoney-losing operation.


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As Ive said, you really really need a course in economics.

Slavery was profitable at times, and it was profitable for various participants in the Africa-to-plantatiochain. But that does NOT mean it was profitable for every participant at all times.

Moreover, people make financial mistakes all the time. In recent years people bought homesexpecting them to appreciate almost immediately. Instead, over the last couple of years, prices havedropped.

But the real estate brokers and mortgage issuers were paid, nonetheless. Of course the number ofrealtors and the number of mortgages issued in the last two years have declined. a lot. Is thereany meaningful difference between the roles of realtors and mortgage brokers versus theircounterparts in the slave trade?

These days every buyer is thinking he may be purchasing his home at the bottom of real estatemarket. Eventually, we will pass the bottom and prices will begin to climb. But till then buyers maysee the value of their homes slip.

Today, buyers and operators of businesses are in the same boat. Thats the same boat they were in

during era of slavery.

How many industries that once formed the basis of major US fortunes are greatly diminished or nolonger exist?

All you have to do is look at the changing names in the 30 companies included in the Dow JonesIndustrial Average to get the answer. The Dow is about 110 years old and the only company in ittoday that was in it from the beginning is General Electric.

Microsoft is a Dow stock. The company is less than 30 years old and has been a publicstockholder-owned company for less than 25 years. But it appears that Microsoft has passed its

prime and the day is coming when another smart guy from Harvard or MIT will create the companythat knocks Microsoft out of its place in the Dow.

The forces of economics make this change inevitable, just like the changes that eventually madeslavery unprofitable.

no_slappzthad,

Obama IS a former muslim. He was born to a muslim father. According to Islamic tradition,that means he was born a muslim.

He lived in Indonesia a muslim nation, by law during his formative years, and while there heattended a muslim school. Since the state religion of Indonesia is Islam, that means he was going toschool in an Islamic environment.

No one at ages 8 to 12 escapes the psychological effects of complete immersion in his society. Kidsare impressionable. They absorb lunacy without question, as all religions demand.

Anyway, Obama has not drifted too far from his Islamic roots. Nominally he became a Christian. But


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he picked Reverend Wright for his spiritual leader. Wright is a muslim in Christian robes. Wright madhis position clear with his repeated praise for Louis Farrakhan, head of the Nation of Islam.

As for demonstrations of his sympathies for Islam, it is painfully clear in his approach to Israel andthe so-called Palestinians, as well as in his goals for the US role in the middle east. He is going tostand by while Iran obtains nuclear weapons, which Iran fully intends to use against Israel.

Ahadenijad has already mocked Obama, which makes it obvious that Iran will ignore Obamasbegging.


I knew a Black physicist that was treated so badly that he decided to get a law degree.

I went to engineering school with people white who became doctors, lawyers and MBAs. Sowhat? As for the black physicist you claim to have known, perhaps he was a lousy student. I knewwhite students who were discouraged by professors who suggested their future was probablyelsewhere. Some people call painful advice harrassment or mistreatment, when, in fact, the

recipients are hearing what they need to hear.

You wrote:

I knew Black students that were good in math and science, but looked to alternative careers, oneeven became a minister.

I knew white high-school students who were good in math and science, even going so far as to majoin these fields in college. I can recall one who then became an actor who has had many roles on TVand in movies.

You wrote:

You look at raw test scores and dont see the individuals who have the education, test scores, butchoose not to be the first or the person that has to overcome the perceptions of being not goodenough.

False. Anyway, with respect to this discussion, I am looking at the Big Picture. Bottom line blacksscore much lower than whites and asians on standardized math and science tests.

You wrote:

There are a lot of Black people who are scientist, but are not celebrities,

No, there are not a lot of black scientists. There are virtually none. Scientists have Phds in theirfields. Meanwhile, scientists white, asian or black are rarely celebrities.

You wrote:

I have worked with them. The jobs they have are very mundane, doing repetitive analysis day afterday. Among them are many white folk in the same bolt.

You seem to be writing about lab technicians or other people who are part of a scientific team. But


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not true scientists.

You wrote:

Most scientist are not superstars or make the salaries of most MBAs. There isnt a lot of incentive tbecome a scientist, when a business degree is valued more. Math people are getting IT degrees.

The preceding is true. But, as always, you are dodging the issue of why so few blacks are advancin

the state of knowledge in technical areas.You wrote:

I think that you know this and like being the unique Negro, so you have to be contrary.

If I were, as you say, the unique Negro, I would be truly unique. Why? Because I am not a Negro.

Hathorno_slappz,

This blog is not our fist encounter, so my impressions of you are not totally about how youpresent yourself here.

ThadWow. And here I was under the impression that it was the conservative American ideologythat a man be judged by what he does and not by who his fathers were or where he wasborn.

As for Obama being muslim because he praised Farrakhan at one time or another, hell, that must

make Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Billy Graham Jewish, then. After all, theyve all praised Israeendlessly.

No, there are not a lot of black scientists. There are virtually none. Scientists have Phds in theirfields

Meanwhile, scientists white, asian or black are rarely celebrities.

Bullshit.One of the men who discovered the structure of DNA was black. Won a Nobel Prize for it,too.

no_slappz

hathor,

My impressions of you are based on, and confined to, the comments you post. The totality ofyour existence is irrelevant.

Meanwhile, I present myself on other sites as I do here.

leigh204^ You mean, besides being annoying? lol!


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HathorThe totality of your existence is irrelevant.

Then why respond to me?

MayhueThe totality of your existence is irrelevant.*********************************

Why say something so inherently evil and lacking in empathy. To utter something so demeaning andcarelessly speaks to your own virulence and complete contempt for Black people. That is somethingsocial darwinists and eugenicists say. That is something that Whites have uttered in some convoluteform or another to Black people ad nauseam.

It always comes down to diminishing the accomplishments and contributions of Black people as

irrelevant and of course non existent. Hathor has the wisdom of experience and she has personallyseen the breadth of many hotspots in Black culture. She is deserving of existence and is relevant asa human being.

This statement plainly encompasses why White men, White people can never truly see Blacks aseven compareably human.

leigh204no_slappz=0 (pwnd)mayhue =1

Mayhue, you rock! Woot! Woot!

HerneithOnly someone with no knowledge of finance, economics, the last 40 years of US history,

mixed with the capacity to believe Bushs response to 9/11 was wrong can call Obama level-

headed.

Level-headed! A physiological impossibility! We would all look like Wile E. Coyote after having anacme anvil dropped on our heads!

As Ive said, you really really need a course in economics.

Go play Bingo or buy a lottery ticket! Help the economy out!

But that does NOT mean it was profitable for every participant at all times.

Is there anything 100% profitable? If so, be a pal and tell everyone.

Moreover, people make financial mistakes all the time.


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Really? I never realized that, but in hindsight youre right, I should never have purchased thosecheap shoes, they are already falling off my feet. Again your advice and insights are invaluable!

In recent years people bought homes expecting them to appreciate almost immediately. Instead, ove

the last couple of years, prices have dropped.

Thats capitalism for you

How White America Got Rich

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