Ciampa Week 2

Main Speaker–I‟ll go ahead and get started. I‟d like to start this week like last week, to open it up for anyone

who wants to pray. Rodney, if you wouldn‟t mind, when everyone is done praying, could you do life prayer for

us?

Prayer1 –God thank you so much for giving us a place where we can come and talk and study. Groups of

people, who are willing to look at a group of topics and think about them and talk about them, change our mind

if we need to. Be with us and have good attitudes and bless us to be able to know the best way to read your word

and make decisions as a group.

Prayer2– Father we pray that your Holy Spiritwill open our hearts and help us understand your word tonight.

We pray that each of us will have the kind hearts to see you word and have the attitudes we should as we discuss

the subjects that you made before us.

Prayer3 – Lord we come before you tonight God, because you are the source of all wisdom. You have saved us

and have not left us here to have a spirit of fear but rather have an understanding of what your will is for us in

our lives if we are seeking you, we will find you. That‟s why were here tonight. Fully trusting in you father to

help enlighten us and guide us on the right path. We thank you so much for giving that to us. Through your son

and your spirit.

Prayer4– Father you‟ve told us that when we confess the name of your son, we are blameless. I just want to

stop and praise you for that for reaching down and lifting us up and making us whole. Taking our sins away.

You didn‟t just cover them up. You removed them from us and put them as far away from us as they could be.

As we‟re trying to make decisions as a church, it seems minor compared to the weight of what we have in your

son. We know Lord that this important and we want to get it right but we praise you for saving us through your

son.

Prayer5 – Lord God, watch over our fellowship. Our souls, our hearts. Our minds. Help us to have discernment

and wisdom to see how you‟re doing here and what your intentions are for us, your people. That we would

glorify you in our emotions. That we would glorify you in word. Watch over us lord as we encounter your

words. That we would love you. That we would love each other. To know you more clearly. This day that

you‟ve given us…listen to the prayers that have been mentioned. It should be a reminded to us all God, that you

are in control. That we are eternally thankful for all the blessings you‟ve given us. Everything that we have; all

the blessings that you give us freely. God, thank you so much. As we start out the lesson tonight God, we just

pray that we can be unified through your spirit in Christ. God, pray for unity in Christ, that we may all love one

another and that we may look for truth in your word God and make application to our own lives. Through Christ,

we can bring Lord back. Thank you for the many gifts you give us. Thank you for your word. We just pray that

you open up our hearts tonight that we‟ll be unified through one mind of Christ to understand your word more

clearly. That‟s in Christ‟s name we pray, Amen.

Main Speaker – I want to start by saying, I feel very self-conscious because I‟ve made the mistake of listening

to part of the tape last week. I felt like I did a terrible job with all these um‟s and okays. So, Gregory, if you‟ll

volunteer to be the Um alarm. If you would please. I‟m going to be really conscious of it. I thought we‟d start

with some questions and try to answer those. Thought it‟d be good to start with some questions…mic? That

helps. One of those technology things, I‟m sorry. We‟re good. Here are some of the questions I have. One

question is…we talked about [?] is it really necessary inference? I have heard the expression „necessary

inference‟. My question though, I just used the general term, inference. But as I thought about this, I thought „I

don‟t think I‟ve ever heard anyone refer to something as being an unnecessary inference.‟ Can someone help out

there? Necessary inference?

Commentator – When I‟ve heard it before, it‟s been in the context of there can be many inferences but there‟s

only one that would be necessary. Therefore, right. So you could say that [?] collected money so you can infer

that they put it in their jar. But since it‟s money and they had a society going, its necessary inference that they

probably put it in a bank or an account of some sort.

Main Speaker – Is there some sort of criteria in determining if it‟s necessary?

Commentator – That‟s where it falls apart. I‟m not saying that‟s what I think. I‟m just saying that‟s what I‟ve

heard.

Commentator –I‟ve just heard that for it to be necessary, there can‟t be any other possible inferences to make

based to make on the text. That‟s what I grew up with.

Main Speaker – There can be no other inferences, it‟s only that one.

Commentator – So if you said someone came out of the water, you have to infer that they went in. Something

of that nature.

Main Speaker – That‟s interesting. Again, that‟s the question. Another question I had was in relation to my

CEIF comment. I checked around a little bit and actually found another one was Necessary Inference/S was on

that I found. Does anyone know of any others? I‟m just trying to be thorough here.

Commentator – CENI is the one I‟ve heard.

Main Speaker – Silence. A lot of times that‟s just inferred...silence is not always brought up. Are there any

others? Is 1 Corinthians 16:1 a command? If we look over at 1Corinthians 16:1, actually 16:1-2 it should be.

Someone want to read 16:1-2?

Commentator – [reads passage]

Main Speaker – Collections…it‟s just a real command of what to do. What‟s very interesting to me is, if you

look at 2 Corinthians, in chapter 8. Starting there…he‟s talking about the collection again. Chapter 8, verse 1.

[Reads passage]. Verse 6. He‟s talking them about doing the collecting, however what‟s he say in verse 8?

Commentator – [reads passage]

Main Speaker – He‟s saying there isn‟t he, that he is not commanding him to do so? So the question is in 1

Corinthians 16:1 a command? Paul says it‟s really not.

Commentator – Are we supposed to hold him money until he gets here? [Laughter]

Main Speaker – Perhaps yeah. That‟s a good question.

Commentator – If it‟s a command, do we give on the first day of the week? Because I get paid every two

weeks.

Main Speaker – Do you prosper?

Commentator– Every 2 weeks.

Main Speaker – I guess it depends how you look at it. I thought it was interesting…isn‟t this a command? Well

Paul said it‟s not.

Commentator – You‟re specifically talking about giving every Sunday? I know what they did here but is that

the command you‟re talking about?

Main Speaker – Right. The command that you have to give every Sunday. It‟s interesting in Verse 8 where

Paul says; I‟m not commanding you to do this.

Commentator – So this is an example, not the example?

Main Speaker – I would take it to be „here‟s an example of what happened in that church in that time in that

situation.‟ But not an absolute, but he says he‟s not commanding them to do so.

Commentator – So my question would be, if we send a collection basket every Sunday, that doesn‟t mean that

everyone has to give? Do you seem y question here? Does that mean we should not send a collection basket

every Sunday?

Commentator – Or are we reinforcing the belief that you have to give every Sunday?

Commentator – I‟m agreeing that I don‟t think it‟s a command that you have to give every Sunday. But then

my question is, if we send a collection basket, which we haven‟t‟ always done, I think that we decided to start

doing that because we were having difficultly with funds. So it was more of a reminder. But I guess I‟m saying,

does that need to be discussed? That we send this, we do not think is a command that you have to give every

Sunday, but if you‟re so inclined?

Commentator13 – It gives consideration to the ones who have to give, for whatever reason, don‟t have to give,

they don‟t give. But at least we are providing the opportunity for someone who wants to. Just a consideration I

guess. Maybe that‟s because that‟s the way I‟ve done it.

Main Speaker – That‟s interesting Sarah. I haven‟t given that thought.

Commentator14 – Is there ever a time there isn‟t‟ a need?

Main Speaker – Good question there. Hopefully we are in continual need because we are continually doing. If

we‟re not doing, then same on us.

Commentator15 – Just something that‟s been on my heart for a few years, I haven‟t noticed the more [?] that

have been made through the years, there‟s more of a fear of providing for the needs of saints in the congregation

you are in. To me, it borders on [?]. I can‟t think of a time there isn‟t a need.

Main Speaker –Absolutely. There should not be. If we were just collecting for the sake of collecting, I would

say there is something seriously wrong with us. Yeah.

Commentator15 – To me there is always a need is what I‟m saying.

Main Speaker – I would hope there always would be.

Commentator16 – I think the greater…I do not think…nothing in the New Testament tells me that we should

give every week for the sake of giving. I think that we live in a world where there is a need. Right now, we‟ve

got a lot of needs. Bills that need to be paid. Collectively we have needs every week. We‟re sending to China,

we‟re sending great things but it‟s a different time than back then.

Main Speaker – Maybe it‟s the building up for when the need comes.

Commentator –There is going to be a need for China's trips coming forward and we know that's coming.

Main Speaker –Right that's a good point. I didn't mean to put you on the spot. I am sorry.

Commentator – There's a lot of needs that each of us can handle more effectively and more efficiently. There

are needs that I am going to be in contact with handled by a group. There are things that will go untaken care of.

If it's going to take a group effort to do it because you can't get unanimous consent on it on how the group funds

are going to be used…

Commentator – He's not talking about the needs in the group. He's talking about the needs of the yonder. In my

mind were still not having the right conversation. It's understood that we're going to meet each other‟s needs and

we don't have to go through a formal collection necessarily to do that. We are in each other's lives and we‟re in

each other's homes. Those things get taken care of. We are supposed to do that individually and if it takes one

more person to bear another's needs then you get other people involved in it. But this is not a group wide

collection for the needs in their group or for the needs in their community. This is a combination of their efforts

to support something over there that none of them can physically get to do so. I think that's a really really

important distinction that should change our perspectives on a lot of things that we talk about when we talk

about a collection.

Commentator – I was just going to.... It goes along with what he was saying about trying to decide if it's a

requirement or not. There might be somebody…so I think there's a lot of harmony around that...[?] so what he

said it's not necessarily for us but I think it's enabling for those that are being prayerful for those to go

somewhere else that aren't able to do it. Whatever the case may be. It doesn‟t matter…there‟s somebody that is

on their hands and knees begging for something like that. It reconciles all that.

Commentator – I agree with that. I absolutely agree that we‟re supposed to do that. I just think that we

personalize caring for each other when we make a church collection thing. On how we cast the church. Does

that make sense? I‟m not saying don‟t collect for those things; that‟s 1000% appropriate.

Main Speaker – I understand. What I thought we‟d start with is to go quickly through our „not‟s‟ once again.

This is not going to be a lecture, what everyone thinks. We‟re not going to bash what other groups think and

we‟re not going to overlook any incorrect interpretations. Last week we looked at a different view. This is not

easy just to remind you. As we mentioned last week, for some people this is very close. For others, this is a little

more distant. So, if we can try and remember that, I think it‟s very appropriate for us. We may not all agree.

Certainly don‟t want anyone to feel intimated or inhibited to say anything. I don‟t think that‟s going to be the

case with this group. Just wanted to remind you of that, that this is not the WCC officially position. We‟re not

trying to create a replacement checklist of things. We‟ve mentioned in a couple of prayers, it doesn‟t matter. In

terms of putting this in perspective of the big picture, this is something that does not matter. It has some weight

of importance to it but to say that this is has equal importance to Jesus‟ resurrection. We want t o make sure we

have the right perspective on this. Those are our not‟s. Anyone want to add a not? Okay. Our outline for these

three weeks. Last week we talked about flawed method. This week we‟re going to talk about how decisions

were made by New Testament churches and next week we‟ll be looking at principals for us to perhaps consider.

What you‟re going to see as we go through is, I did a lot of talking last week. This week, I‟m going to be doing

less and you‟re going to be doing more. And next week, I think you‟ll be doing most of the talking. Just be

prepared for that. I have something that I‟m going to have you do in preparation for next week. We will get out

of here by 8:15. I want to do a few observations about us. You can interpret us however you may wish. These

are just things that have been rattling around in my mind. We said the reason churches are different is because

only we follow the bible completely and accurately. We‟re different from other groups because only we follow

it completely and accurately. I think that is a huge assumption to make and I would be very careful in my life in

saying such. That we‟re the only ones that know the scriptures accurately and in tongue. But that does enter into

this conversation. We often function like everything has already been decided. But I‟m not sure that always is

the case. When bible principals are applied to different cultures and even different current situations, there can

be different outcomes. Does that make sense? Yeah, we already know what to do in every situation. Everything

has already been decided. But as bible principals are applied to different situations, there can be different

outcomes. We want an approval checklist of what we can do but obviously there is not one in the New

Testament. I can‟t find one. We often focus on what we are allowed to do. What is it that I can do as a church?

If the New Testament shows us a process of how churches determine and decide…that‟s a BIG difference

between the what and the how. We want to focus on what the church can do. The New Testament looks at a

process of how churches situations‟ determine and decide. We want a pre-determined structure…that‟s what this

is all about. Give me the list of all the things churches can do. Okay. But that‟s not always what God gives. Lets

look at 1 Corinthians 14. Someone want to read that 26:33?

Commentator – [reads passage]

Main Speaker – What is the context that he is addressing here? He is talking to the Corinthians about what?

Worship service. He says in the very first verse that we read, “What should we say brothers when we come

together. One has a hymn. One has a word of instruction. One has a word of revelation. One has a tongue. One

has an interpretation.” We would like to have a predetermined structure but that‟s not always what God gives.

Often times what God gives an individual to do certain things, here‟s the example that‟s in my mind. Gentlemen,

maybe you can agree or disagree with this. I‟m supposed to speak on a given Sunday. Oh yeah I have to speak

Sunday. The Sunday before… I think about it. Tuesday rolls around, oh yeah I have to speak Sunday. I can‟t

really think much. Thursday rolls around...Saturday rolls around “oh no! I have to speak tomorrow. I have to

come up with something!” Right? So just kind of come up with something. Then you come up here and stand

and you give it, but you realize, I‟m just kind of speaking because my name is on the list and this is the Sunday

that I have to speak. Yet Jeff Williams in the back row, who after talking with him for 2 minutes realizes that he

has really something that‟s happened [?] that he can stand up and he can really say what‟s on him to really

encourage us. Am I the only person that feels that? Yes, no? As we look at the example in the new testament,

the idea is that God is going to give through his spirit this person something for this day and so on. We like the

predetermined structure because that makes us the deciders of what‟s going to happen. It really kind of

eliminates God‟s spirit for working and it really creates a lot of passive members who can just sit back and

watch the people on the stage. I think that it supplies somewhat in what we‟re talking about in churches making

decisions. We like to have the predetermined structure with the churches making the decisions. God doesn‟t

always do that. Here‟s something that I would like to do, if I work up enough courage to do it. To have a given

Sunday and say, “We don‟t have anybody assigned. Anyone who feels like they need to say something or do

something to just do it.” Sometimes if there are broad steps of silence, someone will step up and do it because

they want to end the silence. No, I think it‟ll be the situation where if someone has a real strong impulse of “I

need to say this, do this, lead this.” Let them do it. What would your reaction be if that happened? [Clapping]

It‟s kind of the idea that “okay are we trusting God?” Perhaps we could work into where we do that every week.

I don‟t know. Its so different than how I think about service but it‟s the idea of „I just want to have a

predetermined structure and I feel comfortable to do that.”

Commentator –I think that you might agree, that a lot of that comes from us trying to be in order and decent.

We‟ve gotten so decently and orderly, we‟re about dead. So anything other than that, it‟s like, could be too lousy.

Main Speaker – The decently and in order simply means, not a pre-described order that we set up 3 months ago,

but when we‟re together, if Roger is saying something, Mike shouldn‟t try and stand up overtop of him.

Commentator – It could be turned into a service instead of just being a family. When my family gets together

for my grandmother on my moms side, I think its about up to 140 people. You never know. My family is really

crazy and some of them are more reserved. It‟s spontaneous and there‟s laughter and there‟s games. It‟s a family.

We‟re 800 years into service…

Commentator –I would say this a little bit, all of us have gotten up and…there are times where we know it

wasn‟t us. There‟s songs that we know aren‟t going to flip. We throw them real quick because it is something

that we‟re trying to lead. We‟re trying to lead the group in a certain direction or a certain focus. I think we are

kind of doing that right now on certain things. We have our prayer service, which is very opened up. We spend a

lot of time on that. Its hard for me to get away from structure but at the same time, I do so much better when I

just give it up and allow things to come in. I‟m still such a novice at that and knowing if it‟s me or actually

something that God wants me to say. That‟s why I hesitate on certain things. I just don‟t want to get up and do

something, as not only something that I think is important…

Main Speaker –If you have that really strong sense that it is important to the group, then to me, it‟s more than

just coming from me. That‟s what I think.

Commentator–Roger brought up the term a while ago I‟ve heard so much from my Dad. Orderly. It has to be

done in an orderly fashion. They do it in an orderly fashion so that…I‟ve heard jokes about this. We do it in

orderly fashion so we know what‟s going to happen, when it‟s going to happen…so we are not confused when

getting the spirit. We‟re not supposed to feel anything, its not supposed to be emotional. It‟s a service, we come,

we do our thing, and we leave. It‟s so much more than that. I‟ve actually heard jokes…to me;it‟s almost a slap.

It‟s not a personal thing. I‟ve heard jokes and they separate, it‟s almost like, he purposely separates from feeling

anything. It‟s not supposed to be about passion, it‟s not supposed to be about feeling the spirit. It is what they

are commanded to do. They come and do their thing. To me, you learn and it‟s so much more than that. It‟s a

personal thing. Like Randy said, you have songs picked out and on the way to church, you want to change the

song. I‟m not sure…it happens.

Commentator –I think one of the reasons some people have hesitancy about it is because God does want us to

be different and for some men it would be really hard to on the spot, they were to say something necessary.

They are preparing for that thing in advance and the fear is, if everyone shows up and no one prepared anything,

we‟re jus going to sit. So I think as we address this, we should find a way to address all of those things. That‟s

the hesitancy of that.

Main Speaker –I think you‟re absolutely right. It doesn‟t have to be all of a sudden on a Sunday morning.

Commentator –We want to do things using the scripture. That‟s what…Patrick brought up a great point. We‟ve

highjacked a few words and completely ripped them out of scripture and just blistered them with false

definitions. That‟s service and worship. We don‟t use those words biblically. If we could get back to

understanding what those terms mean, we could probably get a better understanding of what were doing when

we get together. I don‟t think there‟s anything wrong with the way if churches feel comfortable with being

orderly. There‟s nothing wrong with that. I think the whole point is…we don‟t come together to worship. We

worship when we come together. I don‟t find that in the New Testament. Three times in this one chapter when

he talks about the assemblies, he says it‟s for the purpose of edification. Three times. The word worship isn‟t

mentioned. In Hebrews it also says we‟re going to build each other up. I think we just need to figure out what

works for us. We do what works for us. That actually…they needed to do what worked for them in their culture

and their time, based on what was going on. In China, they need to do what works for them. What‟s going to

build them up? It‟s going to change.

Main Speaker –I guess the point is, we need to let it change. Bryan, BJ, and then Roger.

Commentator – I was thinking more along of the lines for people who aren‟t on the spot type of people. For all

of us, we should come to worship prepared to encourage and have something to bring to the assembly. The

speaker leads the prayer. You should come prepared to offer something

Main Speaker –That‟s a great point. It‟s not just something that is prepared.

Commentator –Well when you think about the words spontaneity. It‟s a scary thought really, especially in a

group like this. We could handle it better than most. In some places, that would not be the case. I think one of

the things about the [? 41:30] thing, is that it‟s held and controlled. Controlled individuals. It made everyone feel

safe because for some reason, we feel guilt through association. If someone says something spontaneous that

may be a little bit questionable, we‟re afraid that‟s going to roll off on us. But if something comes up that is

maybe out of order, there‟s ways to handle that. We don‟t have to fear that. The point is, we shouldn‟t fear it is

what I‟m trying to say.

Main Speaker –It could be very beneficial. We‟re concerned about not doing the wrong thing. Jesus condemns

for not doing anything. That‟s what I see, very quickly. I‟m just going to read a couple here for times sake;

Matthew 25. Nations are gathered, [passage Verse 34]. [Verse 41]. The point is that we are very concerned that I

don‟t do the wrong thing. That‟s admirable. But Jesus condemns for not doing. Sometimes we get so concerned

about not doing the wrong thing, wedon‟t doanything at all. That‟s not right. I‟ll make this statement and you

can agree or disagree. I‟m not able to find in the New Testament where a group was condemned for doing a

good deed in the wrong way. If you know where that is, let me know. I don‟t find it.

Commentator –Was it Mary tat took the perfume and washed his feet? We could have used that for a lot of

money but nobody asked her to do. It wasn‟t even commanded for her to do it. It was an impulse in her to do

something for Jesus. There was something about that impulse that was obviously accepted.

Commentator–I was thinking too about the lady that was following the Apostles and she was trying to do more

miracles. “She‟s not doing any harm here.” Even a misplaced miracle…

Commentator –Those two examples make me think that the things that…something that I think limits our

collective time together is someone who says “I‟m not really good in front of a group. I can‟t really sing. I can‟t

teach a class. I can‟t do this, so I don‟t really have anything to offer when we‟re all together.” But those two

examples, there‟s nothing in there that we would do in worship services. There‟s gifts that we can share,

whether its sharing joy. I think it‟s a gift to be sharing sorrow in front of people to talk about painful things that

are on your heart that you need help with. Or to take someone aside who‟s feeling pain or sorrow and

encouraging them. There‟s so many gifts that we should be sharing together that don‟t fall in the classical 45

minute sermon, 20 minutes of singing, plate the basket and plate time…that we need to be willing to let people

do when we‟re together. More open spontaneous worship. Where something important comes up, stop

everything. This is important.

Main Speaker –Great point yes. Stop what we‟re doing…stop the show and lets get to something.

Commentator –Earlier when Patrick said something about service…I cringe every time I say it. I feel like

there‟s another word there and man it just so boxes in what we do. The terminology alone. I‟m sure this is

probably a part of a personality thing…it used to be way scarier for me to not prepare and do something

spontaneous because the spirit let me to it. I feel like that fear exists because we‟re scared of what the spirit will

do. There‟s no possible way if we pray for God to lead us in the right direction and make this time together be

edifying that we will all sit in silence. That will never happen. But if we‟re all worried about and self-conscious

because of this service and all this other stupid stuff, it‟ll get in the way of it. He will not let that be bad at all. I

think if we just get out of our own way and truly ask him to lead us, we‟ll get there.

Commentator –two quick things. When you first came with the mission idea, I thought that was a little over the

top…I supported you. But when I read these verses, how can you not be in favor…how can you even challenge

that [? 49:00]. Two, about being spontaneous. We do that on any given Sunday…absolutely miserably in this

group, we don‟t do it every Sunday because we‟re worried someone else is going to see it. It‟s been on my heart

for a while, and is at the point of driving me nuts is; we live a lie of who we are because of certain people. We

have to go by the order. Shame on me if I‟m going to teach my kids that. It‟s like no, I believe what I do. I don‟t

care. I‟m not doing anything spiritually wrong. Other certain people have asked me what I‟m doing today…[?

49:50]. I‟m sorry but I‟m not doing anything wrong. If I‟m doing something wrong, absolutely, I‟ll apologize

and say something. It doesn‟t matter. We have been doing that and that‟s kind of a thorn in me right now. I‟ve

seen us kind of cater to that after 9 years together. That is absolutely flat out wrong.

Commentator –I don‟t think it‟s flat out wrong at all. I think there‟s biblical precedent at it. You have to be

careful with applying that kind of thing. Absolutely we can do things. Specifically I know I won‟t lead songs

that clap where I know a family member is here. Paul says we have freedom, just use your freedom…I definitely

would not go as far to say we‟re wrong or we‟re living a lie if we decide not to clap during songs. You have to

progress. Certainly during New Testament time, about 70 years of progression where they had to week out

Judaism from Christianity. During that time, there were a lot of concessions, a lot of Jewish stuff going on. It‟s

not going to be perfect. It‟s going to be messy. I think people like Heath help us not get stuck there. You can‟t

get stuck there but there‟s going to be periods of time, where we‟re transitioning. We‟re going to have to move

out of stuff and take some thorns out of our clothing carefully. If it‟s going to hurt a brother or system in this

group…I‟m fine with it if we just need to change a song. If its going to alter something like we‟re trying to do as

a group, like not go on a mission trip or do something that affects the Gospel being spread, that was Paul‟s

criteria. Paul‟s criteria was if it‟s going to hinder the gospel, you better get out of his way because I‟m coming.

But if it‟s not going to hinder the gospel, no big deal. I think it‟s going to be messy.

Commentator –I agree. I think the problem is if it was truly hurting the person…if that‟s truly hurting someone,

then that‟s an issue that I‟d love to discuss. Unfortunately we can‟t have those discussions. I don‟t want to have

this discussion with my family member when I go home. That‟s what it‟s really about half the time. It creates an

uncomfortable discussion. We can create arguments and scapegoats but the reality is, I don‟t want to have the

discussion about someone who raised their hand. That‟s the real reason. I don‟t want to have that discussion

with my parents about why we clap.

Commentator –One thing that is always getting me is distractions. Everything we have when we come together

and worship God, as a group is distractions. Someone drops a book or a baby is crying. What is going to happen

when we are out there…are we going to be hauled up on distractions instead of looking at whom we are

worshipping? It doesn‟t matter if we have structure, or clapping, or whatever. If our minds are actually

worshipping God, the distractions are going to go away. I‟ve never understood that with people. Why are they

doing this? Why does it matter? Your attention is on God.

Commentator –Two things. One thing we‟re talking about is the spirit leading. So we‟re on board with that.

Having said that, I think personally, I‟ll put myself out there, I think the distraction issue with me is more about

the interrupting the pressing in to what the spirit has. There will be times, for instance last Sunday. I think the

pressing in was so visible last Sunday…when Randy was leading singing? Am I the only one that we were on a

roll? It wasn‟t about distraction. It was about interrupting pressing in. There was a point in time where you come

into a point of worship. The meditation of is can be interrupted by distractions. Now distraction comes in many

forms, subjective based on who you are. But if we are all onboard with the pressing in and the sacred

observance of the pressing in, it can help us eliminate being petty about distraction. Number two. Here we go.

My family was present during the [?] sermon and I know it‟s been kind of a joke but I‟m here to say…Howard

felt led by the spirit to preach that sermon on the [?55:55] on behalf of my family because it was so

uncomfortable. I am saying that because I think perhaps there may be some apologies to Howard for obeying

that very uncomfortable leading of the spirit and delivery. Did it make my family uncomfortable? Oh yeah. Did

I have the conversation again? Oh yeah. We‟ve all been there right? But the two things that Howard felt...there

was a clear message that he felt he had to say. That was God preempts himself all throughout scripture and we

cannot be uncomfortable with what God leads us to do. That changes. Everybody who might not have

understood that about Howard, please think about that and search your heart…that‟s something he‟s been

carrying around. If there‟s a bigger picture there that someone needed to see, it certainly goes along with what

were trying to say about the spirit leading. It‟s not always comfortable. It never is comfortable usually.

Main Speaker –Excellent.

Commentator– I was just thinking about these two different perspectives considering other people [?

57:56]…as we respond differently, [58:16?]

Commentator –What she said, that why I am just so [?] against putting up any of these barriers. We have to be

careful. There‟s balance in all that but saying you cant‟ do this…but what if the spirit tells me to that? Do I do it

because of this thing? No. That scares me to do that. What Boone says, has to be taken in context what Heath

says.

Main Speaker –We want to make changes but we cannot undo a lifetime of teaching overnight or two nights. I

think we‟ve all just experienced that in the last 15-20 minutes or so. We have the balance to do it slowly but we

need to move quickly as God puts it. Okay. Here are a few questions. If church decisions are not made by CEIS,

then how do churches decide what to do? That‟s the question I‟m trying to ask. I‟m moving on because we have

a little bit of time. It‟s discussion.

Commentator –Does the word church appear multiple times throughout the slides?

Main Speaker – Um, I don‟t remember. We‟ll see.

Commentator – Can we restate what the word church means?

Main Speaker – If us making decisions are not made by CEIS, a group of Christians…if we‟re not making

decisions by CEIS, then how do we decide what to do? We have to trust god to guide us in our daily lives as we

make daily decisions based on events that occur. Correct? I do. I‟m sure you do too. Question? Should we do the

same thing for the church? Should we pray to god and ask him for His guidance as we make decisions? Instead

of having a pre-defined lists? Was the fluid nature of how New Testament churches make decisions a result of

they didn‟t have a written bible? Now church decision making…the spirit obviously worked in Acts very much

so. He selected, he compelled, and he obeyed. What we didn‟t find in Acts though was local Apostle dictating

the church on what to do. Nor did the church in Jerusalem direct them. The congregations in Acts had to make

decisions and these are examples that I‟ve found about churches making decisions. What I wanted us to do this

evening is talk about what do these decisions have in common? If anything. What‟s different between them?

Can anything be applied to us at WCC? Jennifer I‟m putting you on the spot. Come here now. You‟re going to

be the writer. As we discuss these, Jennifer is going to list the things in common, things that are different. As a

group, we‟ll think together of how they apply. Quickly look at; these are the verses I asked you to look at in the

email earlier. Acts Chapter 1. Someone read for us. We wont have time to read all of these. But someone read

115-126.

Commentator–[reads passage]

Main Speaker –They‟re going to replace an individual, Judas. They went through a process in making a

decision. Let s see if we can identify some of the elements. I‟ve got 4 listed here. But I‟ll ask you. What are

some of the elements you see in their decision making process? They proposed two men. What does that mean?

Commentator –Of the men they had to choose from, they chose two.

Main Speaker –Why did they choose two?

Commentator –I thought it was interesting because they put forward two. We don‟t say that they were told to

put forward two, but they do. They saw it in scripture and the spirit was leading them that they had to replace

somebody.

Main Speaker – Can we go to that first one for a second there? What they did was looked in God‟s word. They

did some research in God‟s word. They went to the Old Testament. Verse 20. It‟s written in the book of

Solomon [?]. they went to the scriptures. Roger has alluded to this, what does verse 21 say? Therefore it is

necessary to choose one of the men. Jesus went in and out beginning with John‟s baptism. Can I suggest that

they used common [?]. That the person who was going to replace Judas was going to have what qualifications?

(1:05:29) The same qualifications as who else had? The 11th right? Is there an element of common sense? Logic

and common sense. The third thing that they did is so important. Verse 24, they prayed. Excellent. The fourth

thing that occurred was is that they cast lots. I wouldn‟t paraphrase casting lots as they looked for God‟s

guidance. In this example, they cast lots (1:06:06) but they never cast lots again after this point in time because

the Spirit was so heavenly involved in what they did. Those were the four things they researched, they proposed,

the spirit led them. Prayer. Okay. Who‟s got someone else to add?

Commentator –Would you put casting lots on giving the fleece?

Main Speaker –You know, yes. Similar to that sort of thing. God show me. In some way. I don‟t feel

comfortable doing that but we could have the discussion as a side but yeah. They looked for something that God

in some way make it very plain. It‟s kind of like what we‟re doing right now with Misty and Megan and Jeff and

Patrick. Should they go to China? I‟m praying, God make it plain to them. Okay. So can we say that their

process was…who‟s got someone to add to this list? So when they made a decision what did they do? They

looked at scripture, they used some common sense, they prayed about it, and they sought the leadership of the

spirit. Excellent.

Commentator –They also put all of that into action.

Main Speaker –Excellent! They put it all into action. They didn‟t just…they did something. Very good. Next

one is [?] Chapter 4. (1:07:52). In Chapter 4, they are hearing John before the San Hedran, Peter replies to us

“What‟s right to listen to you or to Him? You be the judges.” Gave him further threats, decided not to punish

him. Send them on their way. I think they had a decision here about what they were going to do. They had been

threatened. What sort of reaction do they get? What are they going to do? Someone read for us 23-31 quickly.

Commentator –[reads passage]

Main Speaker –Pause. I‟m going to do the interrupt thing, in this verse what happens? What do we see in the

decision-making? What did the do?

Commentator –They told their cohorts what had happened.

Main Speaker –They told how many of them?

Commentator –Everybody.

Main Speaker –Everybody was involved. Everybody knew. Keep going. [Reads passage]. What‟s the next

thing they did? They prayed. Okay. [Reads passage]. Pause right there. How would you interpret that last verse

in what we looked at in Act Chapter 1? What were they looking for? God to intercede. Something that made it

plain. Right, okay. Keep going Mike. [Reads passage]. Who‟s got something to add here? They told everybody,

they prayed about it. They looked for something that was clear. Who‟s got something else to add? Scripture was

involved again, very good. [?] Chapter 6. Lets see about how they made this decision. From Verse 1-6 or so.

Commentator –[reads passage]

Main Speaker –Ok pause right there if you would. There‟s something I‟ve got…who was involved? Everybody.

The 12 gathered together so we‟ve got everybody again. What did they say?

Commentator –It wasn‟t desirable for them to do this.

Main Speaker –It wasn‟t right. Did they say, “Now we demand that?” No they looked at the situation. Could

we call this common sense or logic again? They looked at the situation and it said it didn‟t seem right for us to

separate ourselves for this, but this other task, we can have some of these individuals do. Would you agree to

that? There‟s kind of a common sense, looking at the situation? Keep going I‟m sorry. Verse 5. What else

happened here? They reached a consensus. The people said “Yeah.” Do you think there were some people there

that said, “I don‟t know about this…we‟ve never done this before.” I would think so. They reached a general

consensus about. By the way, what‟s the difference between a consensus and unanimity? Here‟s the best

definition I‟ve ever heard. Unanimity means everybody agrees. Consensus means if you disagree, you can still

say, “I can live with that.” That‟s consensus. It may not be the first thing I do but yeah, I can go along with it.

That‟s consensus. Go ahead, I‟m sorry.

Commentator –[reads passage]

Main Speaker –What else did they do in this decision-making? They prayed.

Commentator –Just real quick note as you move on. They made a decision. You know what I mean? There was

a decision that was made. I saw that a couple of times. It wasn‟t like the Apostles came and said, “This is what

you need to do!” And they did it and they moved on. It was like, okay, here‟s a problem. Here‟s‟ a solution and

there was prayer and scripture involved.

Main Speaker –That‟s exactly what I wanted to get across. Mike said it so eloquently. The Apostles are right

there. Could the Apostles have said, “Hey, here‟s what you‟re going to do.” They did not. What they said was,

“Lets look at the situation. Let‟s come to an understanding. Let‟s pray about it. Let‟s look to the scripture. We‟ll

talk about it all together. Then we‟ll move on.” Is that accurate? The best thing I had in class one time was this

girl was sitting in the back row and she nodded off and she snapped her head backward against the wall. Boom!

Like that. That was fun.

Commentator –They laid their hands on him too.

Main Speaker –They laid their hands on him too. There was some sort of commissioning. That‟s very effective.

In Acts chapter 9. Its 8:17, I‟ve got 3 minutes I can go over. Little children out there…let me quickly go through

this one. After Saul‟s conversion, he tried to join the disciples, they were afraid. Verse 27. Barnabus took him

and brought him to the Apostles. Told him how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord. The Lord had spoken to

him and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of the Lord. A decision has to be made here

regarding Saul. What does Barnabus do? Takes him and does what? Gives him some history; explains the

situation. Look here‟s the situation, here‟s what Saul has done. Verse 28; would you kind of say this is like

presenting some evidence again? Maybe some common sense? “Hey look at what Saul has done.” Pleading his

case. Common sense sort of yah, I can kind of see the evidence in the case is presented here. Lets fast forward to

Acts 11. Here in Acts 11, what happens is Peter is called on the carpet because he preached to Cornelius. Okay,

and so a decision has to be made. Lets start with verse 1. The Apostles and the believers heard the gentile

perceive the word of God. Peter went up to Jerusalem. The circumcised [?] believers criticized him (1:16:50)

and said you “You live in the house of the circumcised and you ate with them.” Starting from the beginning,

Peter told them the whole story. A decision is made here, what happens in the verses we‟ve just read? What can

we draw out from it, what element? Common-sense sort of thing. Here is kind of the situation; here is what I

feel that God did.

Commentator –Another thing, there is a situation and an experience that led to a decision being made.

Main Speaker –Excellent. There was a situation and an experience that led to a decision and a decision was

made in accepting Cornelius. Sure. Very good. He couldn‟t get out of God‟s way…maybe that needs to be more

of our thought process. Ex chapter 15 very quickly, this is where some individual said in verse 1 “unless you‟re

circumcised according to the customs taught, you cannot be saved.” So what happens verse 6, Apostles and

elders met together to consider this question. So we‟ve got a decision going on. Should individuals who are

believers be circumcised or should not that be circumcised? Agreed? They are making the decision. Lets see

what happens here. After much discussion, what? What did we just say? After, one person raised their hand and

said „I think we should do this‟, someone else said I don‟t know. Much discussion went on. They had much

discussion but what did they do…it says they met to consider the question. Okay. They got together to consider

the question. They had much discussion. Peter talks about what God has done, James in Verse 12 talks about it,

in verse 15…what‟s he say? The words of the Prophet are in agreement with this as it is written. What else did

they do? They went to scripture. To some it would have been, very much so. Verse 19, James is still talking and

says „It is my judgment therefore that we shouldn‟t make it difficult for the gentiles who are turning to God. We

should write to them, etc.” Verse 22, what did they do? They decided. They made the decision to choose some

of their own men. Verse 28, here‟s part of the letter. I know we‟re skipping stuff but you‟ve read all this before

class. Verse 28, „it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us. Not to burden you with anything beyond these

requirements.‟ What he actually says is…back in verse 25, so they all agreed to choose some men and send

them, with the expression that they all agreed to choose some men. Literally he says, “It seemed good to us, the

coming of one mind.” It literally says we came to one mind. Let me show you how one mind is used by Luke. In

the book of acts. They came to one mind in prayer when they continued together in one mind in Acts 2. They

were one mind in Simon‟s portocle. When they rushed to kill Stephen, it says they were in one mind. They

listened in Acts 8, when they set on to Paul to kill him, they were one mind. When they rushed in the theatre,

they were one mind. Question, is this all unanimity? Everyone did all of this? No. What are you saying? One

mind means what? A consensus. Yes, this seems like the sort of thing we should do. We‟ve come together,

we‟ve talked about it, we‟ve prayed about it. We‟ve used scripture. We‟ve come to this; this is what we should

do. Okay. Lets see what you‟ve got up here. Someone take a picture and send it to me. What I‟m thinking is,

there‟s some commonality that we find in many of these things. There are things that are different as well. What

would you say is common? Give me some of the common ones? Prayer, scripture, decision making, acted on

spirits, public was involved. Those to me are all elements of decision making in God‟s church. Who‟s got

something to add? I‟m sorry we‟re over for 9 minutes.

Commentator –None of these ended in disaster. We‟re all still here. God somehow turned the world upside

down with these imperfect people who were doing the best they could to submit to his will.

Commentator –Some of these still did cause problems later. You know what I mean? It didn‟t end in disaster;

the moral of the story was God‟s will prevailed but you still dealt with it. These didn‟t solve all the problems.

The churches didn‟t come together and make a decision and everything got rosy. It was still hard and messy.

Still, the spirit worked in spite of it.

Commentator –But don‟t let perfect be the enemy of pretty good.

Main Speaker –Oh that is a great point to say. I know we have rushed, what I‟m going to do is get all of

Jennifer‟s scribbling and I will send it out in email. I would like for you to pray about this and think about it.

Does it make sense does it not make sense? Can we get an idea of how they made decisions? What of this do we

apply? We‟ll talk about that next week. What about this would be applicable to what we‟re trying to do in terms

of decision-making? Okay?

Commentator –It just keeps causing me to wonder where He takes circumcision and puts it into place, but yet

he has them to abstain from this and that. [?] I‟m just assuming that would interfere with them as Christians

somehow. More so than he‟s trying to keep them...[?]

Main Speaker –They wanted to put their reliance on circumcision instead of on Jesus. Good point. Very good.

Who else has something to say? Thank you very much. You did a great job. I will send this out and give you

some ideas. I will have an assignment for you next week. Circle much discussion. Can you pray for us?

Closing Prayer – [closing prayer]