HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport...
Transcript of HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport...
![Page 1: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/1.jpg)
PUBLIC SESSION
MINUTES OF ORAL EVIDENCE
taken before
HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE
On the
HIGH SPEED RAIL (LONDON – WEST MIDLANDS) BILL
Thursday, 10 December 2015 (Morning)
In Committee Room 5
PRESENT:
Mr Robert Syms (Chair) Mr Henry Bellingham Sir Peter Bottomley
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Mr Mark Hendrick
_____________
IN ATTENDANCE
Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport
WITNESSES
Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton
Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend Anne Stevens
Ms Amber Massie-Blomfield Ms Frances Heron Ms Louise Fletcher
Mr Pat O’Neill Ms Maria O’Shea Ms Zamzam Ali Ms Jane Warren Ms Linda Eager
Ms Agueda Furtado Mr David Turner Mr John Fletcher _____________
IN PUBLIC SESSION
![Page 2: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/2.jpg)
2
INDEX
Subject Page Parish of Old St Pancras Introduction from Mr Mould 3 Submissions by Father Elston 3 Father Worton, examined by Father Elston 4 Response from Mr Mould 9 Closing submissions by Father Elston 17 St Pancras Parish Church Parochial Church Council Introduction from Mr Mould 21 Submissions by Mrs Hackman 22 Submissions by Reverend Stevens 24 Further submissions by Mrs Hackman 27 Response from Mr Mould 29 Closing submissions by Mrs Hackman 33 Camden People’s Theatre Introduction from Mr Mould 34 Submissions by Ms Massie-Blomfield 34 Response from Mr Mould 37 Ampthill Square Tenants and Residents Association and others Introduction from Mr Mould 38 Submissions by Ms Heron and Ms Fletcher 40 Evidence of Mr O’Neill 45 Further submissions by Ms Heron and Ms Fletcher 48 Response from Mr Mould 52 Statements read by Ms Heron 56 Maria O’Shea Submissions by Ms O’Shea 59 Submissions by Ms Ali 61 Submissions by Ms Warren 62 Linda Eager Submissions by Ms Eager 64 Response from Mr Mould 66 Agueda Furtado Submissions by Ms Furtado 67 David and Barbara Turner Submissions by Mr Turner 71 John and Louise Fletcher Submissions by Mr Fletcher 75 Response from Mr Mould 79
![Page 3: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/3.jpg)
3
(At 09.30)
Parish of Old St Pancras
1. CHAIR: Order, order. Welcome to the HS2 Select Committee. Good morning to
everybody. Mr Mould, have you got a map so we can see where the church is?
2. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes. St Mary’s Church is on Eversholt Street. I’m just
pointing it out now with the arrow. It’s this building just here. That’s it. Very briefly
to set the scene, we have utilities works required on Eversholt Street which are
essentially a gas main diversion, and also in Polygon Road possibly needing to do some
work to a concrete sewer. It’s on Polygon Road here. There’s a worksite here which is
the Royal Mail sorting officer site where we demolish the existing building and provide
bus stands later in the construction process.
3. Eversholt Street is a traffic route and the prediction we have is that traffic along
that route is likely to be of the order of about 39 heavy construction vehicles a day
during the fourth phase, so fairly late in the process of constructing the Phase 1 station
in the early 2020s; rising to a peak of 80 during the course of that phase.
4. In terms of noise, our prediction is that there will be noise from the demolition of
the Royal Mail compound building and there will be noise obviously from the utilities
works. Our prediction is that the noisiest period of activity will be limited to a period of
about one month, and then the noise will be at rather low levels. So that’s the basic
scene.
5. CHAIR: Okay. Welcome, gentlemen. If you’d like to introduce yourself and
present your petition, please? So it’s 468.
6. FATHER ELSTON: Thank you very much for seeing us today and taking this
time to hear us. My name is Father James Elston. I’m the team rector of the Parish of
Old St Pancras which consists of four churches in the Camden Town area. It’s an urban
priority area and we serve some of the poorest people in London and in the borough of
Camden. One of my churches is St Mary’s, Eversholt Street, which has just been
referred to, and that’s the church we’re going to be talking about today.
![Page 4: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/4.jpg)
4
7. My colleague is my team vicar, Father Pascal Worton, who is the parish priest of
St Mary’s, Somers Town. St Mary’s sits within Somers Town. I’m sure you’ve heard
lots about Somers Town already. It’s dense social housing. It’s been subject to many
changes. It’s going to be subject to many more changes over the coming years with
Crossrail 2 and the Somers Town plan and rehousing development.
8. The history of the church briefly. It’s been there since the 1820s. It’s a Grade II
listed building. It’s very much the heartbeat of the community. It’s the oldest building
in the community and it’s open daily as a place of prayer and quiet in a very, very busy
and stressful place to live in London. We have many outreach projects from the church
for young people, children, older people, homeless people and those suffering with
mental health problems.
9. So our first slide shows the… I don’t know who’s doing the slides. Lovely.
That’s our blurred logo; we’re very low tech. So we’ll move on to the next slide and
you can just see a picture of the church and how it sits on Eversholt Street. So here we
have the left. You can see the church is right on Eversholt Street. The Royal Mail
building opposite is the building that will be demolished, so you can see with the
building being demolished in that close proximity it’s not going to have an
inconsiderable effect. And of course, as Mr Mould says, there’s going to be a bus
station with buses turning and an increase of lorries going in and out of that site of
Barnby Street taking detritus from the site. So that’s where St Mary’s is located in
relation to the demolition works and the access route to the HS2 works.
10. So I’d like to call Father Paschal as a witness and I want to ask you, Father,
whether you could tell the Committee about how the access limitations might affect the
church.
11. FATHER WORTON: One of the regular occurrences – there are three in the next
eight days – are funerals. And for the people of Somers Town, funerals are not only a
time of grieving for personal family losses but it is a time for cohesion as a group, as a
local community. So we have hundreds of people coming to the church for funerals.
And, as you see from the slide there, this spill-out onto the road, and hearses need access
to draw up in front of the entrance to the church. So my main concern is for that to
continue. Also when you have large Somers Town funerals with horses and plumes and
![Page 5: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/5.jpg)
5
all that goes with it, that again, they would be hampered I think by the noise and the
traffic. Already it’s a very busy road, as we know, with buses, ambulances, police
charging up and down from the Euston Road up to Camden. So it can be quite stressful
for the families when all this is going on. So my concern is an increase of traffic and
noise during these funerals.
12. Also, if you go to the next slide please, if it’s possible, you’ll see turning into the
left a hearse there. Now, there’s two reasons for doing that: one is that because one of
the local things is that they kind of do a procession near the blocks of flats where they
live and it’s highly important to the families that the body of the deceased goes near
where they used to live. They also circulate the pubs as well. But actually one of the
practical reasons is that the funeral corteges need to turn left in order to get back round
to go north to the cemeteries and the crematorium. If this is Polygon Road that might be
affected, then they would have to go right down to Euston Road and try and get back up.
And, as you know with funerals, with crematoria and burials, there is a time factor
involved.
13. CHAIR: Half-an-hour?
14. FATHER ELSTON: Half-an-hour to 45 minutes, yeah.
15. FATHER WORTON: Yeah. So that would be another one of my concerns there.
Also access with weddings. Wedding couples coming out on their day and just coming
in to seeing the demolition right opposite the church and how that will affect their
wedding. So I’m concerned about that as well.
16. Also near us is the school: St Mary and St Pancras Church of England Primary
School. And over 200 children and staff come regularly into the church building for
services, but also sometimes for teaching. Although the school itself will not be
affected so much by the changes in Eversholt Street, managing the children round from
the school and then along Eversholt Street, they normally have to go left because
another school comes out at the same time so my concern is for their safety and the
process of the children to and from the church.
17. Also, our hall, our little hall, is attached to the church and the entrance is, again,
onto Eversholt Street. And, as Father James has said, we do a lot of activities for the
![Page 6: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/6.jpg)
6
elderly, for mums and toddlers, for the homeless, for other charitable groups. And my
concern is, again, will this lack of access, or will there be boards, will it stop people
from coming to the hall? Will they be put off, people who are elderly or mums with
buggies? Will that be a distraction?
18. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Is the hall part of the church?
19. FATHER WORTON: The hall is part of the church.
20. FATHER ELSTON: It’s right next door.
21. FATHER WORTON: It’s attached to it.
22. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: On Eversholt Street?
23. FATHER WORTON: Yes. It’s sort of between that Polygon Road and the
entrance to the church. If we go back –
24. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If we look at 12489(2).
25. FATHER WORTON: Yes.
26. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If you put your finger on the corner where it is.
27. FATHER ELSTON: Just there. The hall is the recess bit. If you look at the
building on Eversholt Street, the entrance to the hall is that recess bit on the right. That
little corner that’s cut off. That’s the entrance to the hall.
28. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Thank you.
29. FATHER ELSTON: And the hall runs down the side of the church, the south side
of the church.
30. FATHER WORTON: One of my concerns is not only for the people but also the
hall is a source of income for our church. We’re not a rich church and, again, if people
don’t want to use our hall then our income will be severely reduced. Paragraph 14 and
23 in our petition states some of the finances that would be involved. We’ve also
managed to get charitable help of £23,000 because of our social projects, and so that
might stop. So income from the hall.
![Page 7: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/7.jpg)
7
31. Also income from people coming into the church to pray. As Father James has
said, it’s a very open church. People come in, light candles, have a sense of peace and
put donations. And we do depend on those donations daily to help keep the church
going. So those are some of my concerns around access.
32. FATHER ELSTON: Thank you, Father. And I wonder how you felt… whether
you could tell the Committee something about the noise and the effects that might have
on your home, the vicarage, which is next door to the church? It’s built above the
church hall and the church itself.
33. FATHER WORTON: Yes. My little dwelling is 1960s with a box attached to the
hall. Again, my bedroom looks straight onto the post office building. I see the big sign
as I look out of my bedroom window. And the noise already is quite bad from buses
and lorries going up and down Eversholt Street so my concern is for the noise that will
come into the clergy house where I also see people on an individual basis regularly as
well. So it’s a house not just for my dwelling but also for ministry.
34. Also the noise, of course, when things go past the church; we feel the effects of
noise already. So my concern is to do with how that would affect our services, our
funerals, our sense of calm that’s there. And also the groups, young children, babies; all
of that is quite a concern of mine.
35. FATHER ELSTON: Thank you. And how about increased dirt and dust? Could
you just tell us about your worries there?
36. FATHER WORTON: Yes. Well already, as you know, in London there’s lots of
dust around and the doors being opened regularly for people coming in and out, dust
comes into the church regularly. My concern is that, with this added addition of dust, it
will affect the organ. Organs are very sensitive instruments and we don’t have money
regularly to repair them or to clean it, and so I think it will affect the workings of the
organ.
37. Also over the door is a 19th century copy of a Della Robbia Madonna, and I think
that will be affected not only by dirt but also perhaps by some shaking or things like
that.
![Page 8: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/8.jpg)
8
38. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Vibration.
39. FATHER WORTON: Vibration, thank you; that’s the word. Vibration.
40. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: In church, when one’s affected by the service, it can
be ‘shaking’. But I think for these purposes it’s ‘vibration’.
41. FATHER WORTON: Yes. Also the brickwork which is 1830s brickwork.
Already it suffers from the effects of pollution and so I worry about that.
42. If I might just say, I deal with residents of a community who feel that their
existence has been blighted by construction work and development in the area for over
25 years. Some of it has been very helpful in rejuvenating the area. But whilst there’s
been various buildings happening at the Crick Centre, St Pancras Station, St Pancras
Hotel, the British Library – all good things – but within that area is a group of people
who feel that they are in a kind of island. And despite regular meetings and chances for
their voices to be heard, many people still feel that they have no choices so they feel that
they are sacrificial lambs who will suffer on the altar of national progress.
43. So my concern is basically for the people, for this place of stability, for believers
and non-believers alike who seek identity and nourishment from this church. And I just
hope it can be valued and be protected. Thank you.
44. FATHER ELSTON: Thank you very much, Father. As Father Paschal says, it
really is the heartbeat of the community and it resonates with lots of the community as
the only permanent structure that’s been there through our change. And of course, as
I’m sure you’re aware, in the 1930s it was a priest who helped clear the slums of Somers
Town and built some of the first social housing in this country. And so the church is not
only there as a spiritual place but people look to it as somebody who can speak up for
the people and act as well, rather than just speak. So that’s the kind of ministry –
45. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Community leadership and community service?
46. FATHER ELSTON: Yes, thank you. That’s a very good phrase to put,
absolutely. Thank you. What happens next? You ask us questions?
47. CHAIR: What happens next is we ask the promoter to respond.
![Page 9: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/9.jpg)
9
48. FATHER ELSTON: Oh, right. Thank you.
49. CHAIR: Then you have the final say.
50. FATHER ELSTON: Oh, lovely.
51. CHAIR: Okay. Mr Mould.
52. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Thank you. It seems to me that the key to meeting the
concerns put by the church is that we should be in close engagement with them well in
advance of the start of works here, and continue to be in close engagement with them, I
think particularly in the light of what’s just been said about the role that the church play
as a voice for the community, because it will help not only to provide advance notice of
the works closures of roads, so far as there are any and that kind of thing, but also will
help to provide a route through to information to the local community in Somers Town.
53. So what I would propose is this: that after this meeting, after this session, that we
should speak to the petitioners. We can explain the arrangements that will be put in
place in advance of the works to give notice of particular phases of work such as, for
example, when works are going to begin for the demolition of the Post Office building,
when the utilities works are likely to start their duration and that kind of thing. Notice
of the traffic control arrangements that are going to be in place in relation to
Eversholt Street to allow street works to take place. All those matters. And also to
enable a dialogue in relation to concerns about the possible impact of demolition on the
church itself.
54. I should say straight away, our assessment is that the church is not at risk of any
physical damage, nor indeed the organ and that kind of thing from the demolition works.
The demolition… it’s quite a substantial building but the demolition of substantial
buildings in London is not an unusual thing. This is a mercantile city; it refreshes itself
almost on a daily basis if you look at the number of cranes there are in the skyline. And
our contractors will be very well aware and will be bound, as you know, to observe the
best practice in relation to those matters. Equally, street works in London streets is a
common feature of living in a society which is as dynamic as ours and they will be
controlled under the Code of Construction Practice as well.
![Page 10: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/10.jpg)
10
55. But the important thing is that people who are affected by these works – and this is
a good example of that – should be given proper advance notice of what is happening
and kept informed; and that is what the community relation strategy is designed to
achieve.
56. Just to give you a very quick context on our prediction as to what is going to
happen on traffic, if I can just put up P11315(34) which gives you a sense of the
predicted incidents of HS2 traffic on Eversholt Street during the course of the works.
You can see that, as I said briefly in opening, there’s a spike of up to about 80 vehicles
during Phase 4. But other than that essentially we’re at or around the 30 to 35 vehicle
mark throughout the works.
57. And if you look at A11316(14), that will give you an idea of the scale of HS2
traffic within the predicted baseline. If you can just orientate yourself to links A and B
and C and D, which are south and north I think respectively of the church. And if we
can just blow up so that we can have a look at the numbers on the left, you can see A
and B. As you would expect, Eversholt Street carrying quite a substantial number of
both ordinary and heavy traffic in both directions through both those points. And then
the amount of HS2 traffic is relatively small. As I say, there is a small but significant
number of HGVs being routed along the street but that’s in a mix which already
includes some hundreds of HGVs as you would expect on Eversholt Street, knowing
where it is and its relationship to Euston Road and so forth.
58. So that’s the position there. And on noise, if we can just show P1249(2). Sorry,
P12491(2). Again, the type of property is non-residential so this is referring to the
church. Likely to be, during 2017, a period of one month during which adverse noise
impacts will occur. No significant effects predicted during the night. And then no
significant vibration effects, mitigation, through the Code of Construction Practice. So
that’s the prediction.
59. Coming back to where the petitioners started off with the particular concern about
the management of funerals, that’s exactly the sort of thing where, with sensible and
effective engagement, we can hear from the church when a funeral is planned and that
can be reported to the contractor and the contractor can take steps to try and keep any
disturbance of that to the minimum. It’s just about good planning, and that’s what we’re
![Page 11: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/11.jpg)
11
committed to doing.
60. CHAIR: The ability of vehicles to turn to go northward, is that something you
want to build into the plan for the construction site?
61. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, it is. And, again, with proper advanced notice
from both parties we can –
62. FATHER ELSTON: Well, people don’t give notice of dying so it’s usually a
week’s notice so as long as that’s –
63. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No, that’s what I mean. I appreciate that. I’m aware of
the realities of human existence so, you know, they can be built into this programme.
This is not the first time, I’m sure, that a church in London has had to accommodate
funerals, weddings, that kind of thing with fairly major construction activities going on
in the immediate vicinity. And it is possible to manage these things effectively, and
that’s what we’re committed to doing.
64. MR BELLINGHAM: I’ve got a suggestion here, Mr Mould. I certainly take on
board what you’ve said. I think the important point to bear in mind here is it’s very easy
in the Committee for these assurances to be made, but you have a site manager and
you’ve got part of a construction project that may be running behind and there’s
pressure on the guys on the ground, and the church then puts in a perfectly reasonable
request but it may not be possible to meet it in the way that you’ve just said. So would
it make sense to have a proper service level agreement with the church specifically
about this part of London so that there could be an annex to the Code of Construction
whereby each site manager involved has to accommodate the wishes of the church.
That’s the least we can ask for. It is a massive construction project, this.
65. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Following on from Henry Bellingham, who I think
has raised a very good point, the critical point I think is: will it be absolutely certain that
this church, and any others that may be affected in a similar way, can ring somebody up
and say ‘in a week’s time or in two days’ time we have a couple exchanging vows and
they don’t want to hear, especially during the demolition of the Royal Mail depot’,
which is the crucial thing. Most of the work is on the other side of the station so that’s
not so much of a problem. But I think it’s the demolition particularly that month which
![Page 12: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/12.jpg)
12
matters.
66. I’ve actually watched major buildings in South London being demolished and
they’re nibbled away at and they come down very fast and then they’re cast away.
There are times when the noise is significant. I think that what is critical, whichever
way it’s done – whether it’s the way Henry suggests or some other way – that the church
can actually say ‘we have these things coming up and we do have funerals at 10.30 and
at 3.30’ or ‘we do have a wedding on a Tuesday or on a Saturday’ – I imagine Saturdays
are more likely than weekdays – and during particular periods no adverse noise matters.
And I think that’s the critical point in terms of the effect you’re trying to achieve, which
is no significant disturbance.
67. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That’s what I said, yeah. I mean, that would be the
practical purpose of the engagement process that I have just indicated.
68. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: And then if we look at 12489(2), which you may be
coming to, which has some construction traffic; I imagine it’s utilities works on Polygon
Road and Aldenhan Street.
69. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah, that’s the concrete sewer in Polygon Road.
70. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Okay. So those are temporary things?
71. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yup.
72. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: So outside those periods, the project shouldn’t be
interfering with traffic movement?
73. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That’s right. And the works in Eversholt Street itself
are also confined to utilities. There will be some vehicles going up and down Eversholt
Street but, you know, what you’ve said and what Mr Bellingham has said, I mean, I
think I would certainly… What I was about to say – I’m not sure I can commit to
directly – is the notion of a service agreement. I think what we would expect to do is, as
I said yesterday, is we would expect to be written into the contracts for these jobs
commitments by the contractor on engaging with people who are going to be affected,
particularly institutions such as the church, and they would be expected contractually to
ensure that they set up arrangements of the kind that you have mentioned.
![Page 13: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/13.jpg)
13
74. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: One is the planning bit, giving reasonable advanced
notice, and the second is the hotline if someone’s drilling with a pneumatic drill in the
middle of something that’s sensitive to the people in the church.
75. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah.
76. MR BELLINGHAM: Your assurances certainly are appreciated but I’ve been
involved in situations in my own constituency where the residents have said ‘we have a
contractual right against you but it’s all very well if that can be exercised months or
years later’. I’m talking about spur of the moment situations when you have a site
manager and a team who are under pressure where the key deliveries from the day
before haven’t arrived, they’re under pressure, and you’ve got contractors who are under
a time penalty and the poor church are trying to get some sense out of this.
77. I understand you don’t want to commit to a service agreement but I would like to
see a commitment for HS2 to write to the church in the next week to underline, to
reinforce, the points that you’ve made. Because with that letter the church management
will be able to, when this all starts if it does start, has something to fall back on.
78. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I’m happy to do that. And I want it to be understood
that the theme that I have been pursuing over the last 24 hours – it almost is the last 24
hours – is that I give sensible – you might say ‘bleeding obvious’ – commitments about
actually keeping people properly informed about when things are going to happen and
how they’re going to happen, that those will be followed up by letters to the petitioners
concerned relatively quickly so that people can have something in their papers that says
‘the Council says this and I’ve got a letter that records that’. So the people behind me
are going to have to do that and I’m sure they’re already planning that.
79. MR HENDRICK: Will they have a hotline?
80. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, there will. We’ve said that there will be points of
contact, hotline, call it what you will, in these local areas. And we’ve given
commitments to Camden – I won’t show you them again – about making sure that
because of the overall scale and duration of works at Camden that there will be effective
local points of contact that people can go to. And, you know, you know that we’ve got a
complaints service. That’s a route-wide commitment. But that will have to be reflected
![Page 14: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/14.jpg)
14
in practice at a local level. It’s not going to be a single point of contact for the whole
route; there will be points of contact for individual areas. And obviously those points of
contact will be focused on areas where there is a particular intensity of activity.
81. Another point I wanted to emphasise yesterday is that not every person who
comes to this Committee will be experiencing direct effects from every piece of work
throughout the whole period. This church will not be experiencing the works directly
which are going to take place at the Camden Cutting. Park Village East are not going to
be experiencing directly the works that are taking place in Eversholt Street. I’ve
focused on the demolition of the Post Office building and the utilities works.
82. MR HENDRICK: I accept that but I think the point that Sir Peter’s making about
not just being a means of redress should things not go as planned or something happen
that shouldn’t, but there’s actually an immediate way that something can be addressed
quickly if something gets out of hand like pneumatic drills halfway through funeral.
83. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah, we’re furiously agreeing with each other. I
accept that.
84. MR HENDRICK: But it’s about how you do it, not just whether or not there’s a
process for redress.
85. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The one thing I can’t do now is tell you exactly how
something will be done in two or three years' time.
86. MR HENDRICK: An example.
87. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah. But I can tell you that those points that you make
I receive on behalf of the project sympathetically and constructively. And we will
respond to those in like fashion.
88. CHAIR: We’ve had some discussions with farmers and members of the farming
community before us and they have a number of legitimate specific concerns which are
difficult to address because one hasn’t got to the point of the detailed design. And the
project is producing, as I understand it, a document which gives them a pathway or
template for how the project will deal with the farming community as it deals with these
issues. I just wonder whether or not, beyond a letter to the petitioners, one could just set
![Page 15: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/15.jpg)
15
out on a page of A4 the approach the project would take with the faith community up
and down the line, repeating some of the things you’ve said to the Committee today so
that in effect there’s a pathway for how the various churches and other religious
organisations deal, when at the particular point they have construction impacting on
them, how the project will handle that.
89. MR MOULD QC (DfT): We can do that.
90. CHAIR: Okay.
91. MR BELLINGHAM: Can I also ask, Mr Mould, were you coming on to the point
regarding mitigation? The junior father was asking about his situation with the house in
the church and that struck me as a very reasonable request because his bedroom is
overlooking the demolition works.
92. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Given the predicted noise effects which I’ve shown you,
which are generally at low level save for that one month, at the moment the project’s
position is that that wouldn’t be necessary. But that doesn’t mean that we’re committed
on that point. We will continue to review the likely noise effects as the detail of the
scheme continues to be developed. We’ve said that. And, indeed, the nominated
undertaker has got to do that under the terms of the Code. So rather than commit to
something now which may turn out to be a waste of public money, I would prefer to say
that that’s the position that we predict at the moment but we understand the concerns of
the church and we understand that this is a sensitive environment for the reasons that
members of the Committee have said. We will keep that under close review and so
there will be a… I don’t think I can say more than that at this stage.
93. MR BELLINGHAM: Well, I would like it if you did what the Father has said
because actually, you know, he’s exhausted, he’s got parishioners coming round, trying
to plan a wedding or funeral, he’s doing all sorts of other things. It’s a summer
afternoon; there’s a huge amount of noise going on and he can’t do his job. And that’s a
reality of the situation if you can’t sleep that evening if they’re working – well, we know
they’re not going to be working through the night – but if they’re working quite late.
94. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No, these would be ordinary working hours.
![Page 16: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/16.jpg)
16
95. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: He might have to go to the pub.
96. MR BELLINGHAM: I would be useful to hear what the two clerics have to say
on that.
97. FATHER ELSTON: I have a question about your response document because, on
the point of noise insulation, in your response document you seem to suggest that noise
insulation isn’t required on Eversholt Street because of the revised AP3 scheme. And
the reason you’ve suggested that in the response document is because of the no longer
having a link. But the link is further up near Camden Road. So I don’t understand in
the response document why the abolition of a link means that you don’t need to mitigate
the noise pollution on Eversholt Street.
98. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Because it means there is a concomitant reduction in the
intensity of traffic and so forth, which means that the predicted noise that we’re going to
introduce… I think it is important to bear in mind that we are in an environment where
noise traffic disturbance is a factor. You know, this is Central London. This church has
been there functioning successfully since the days when I suspect it was
Charles Dickens’ parish church back in the 1830s when he lived in Somers Town. And
the picture we have is that this is a successful, vibrant feature of the local community. It
succeeds notwithstanding the fact that it sits on a fairly busy street – I’ve shown you the
numbers without HS2. So I’m not trying to be unsympathetic but I’m trying to give a
sense of proportion to this. We are demolishing a large building next door –
99. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: The major disturbance is for a month during
demolition.
100. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes. And I think that, as I say, keeping the matter under
close review I would have thought is the sensible way forward here.
101. CHAIR: Brief final comments?
102. FATHER ELSTON: Yes. Looking at our mitigation points, you’ve addressed
noise and one of the things in the response document in terms of access and points of
contact is that it’s all about having contact with the Highway Agency which in this case
will be the local authority. But notoriously the lines of communication into a local
![Page 17: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/17.jpg)
17
authority… I mean, just ringing up a local authority, it’s almost impossible to get to
speak to the right person. So I’m glad that you’ve said that there will be some lines of
communication, and I’ll be interested to hear, as the member of the Committee has
suggested, how those can be direct lines of communication because things do happen at
a rapid pace in parish life and we want to be able to respond to those sympathetically.
And just being able to ring the council and see what they’ve got on their books is not
going to be an adequate way of going about it.
103. MR MOULD QC (DfT): People understandably assume the worst of others a lot
of the time, but we really are going to try and do better than that. And I would ask you
of your charity to accept that we will try and do better than the worst. Thank you.
104. FATHER ELSTON: And I’d just like to return to the position of the organ
because I think that’s been glossed over. The organ is worth about £100,000 and organs
just go out of tune with dust. We have very ill-fitting doors. The way we can protect
our organ is to close the church to the public. And the organ is used for weddings and
funerals. Each pipe has to be meticulously cleaned. And I know it sounds quite
inconsequential to people sitting in this room and organs apparently seem sort of quite
fanciful antique things, but it does form the centre of our worshipping life and it’s been
there for 100 years. And I was hoping that HS2 might commit to at least giving us a
small amount of money to maintaining and cleaning the organ which we can’t afford to
do unfortunately. So if we want to maintain the instrument, we just have to close the
church to the public.
105. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I will tell you this. When the demolition of the building
next door begins, we will ensure that we inspect the organ on a sensible basis and if the
organ is showing signs of being affected by dust or deteriorating in its operation and that
can be linked to the demolition works, then we will pay for the necessary cleaning or
repairs that result from that. So if we cause damage to the organ, we will put that
damage right and we will deal with it as quickly as we reasonably can.
106. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If it does reach that level, I suggest that you make an
application to the Community Fund because it’s the sort of thing which I suspect that
those in charge would say that this is a discrete amount of money that clearly is an
advantage to people who are neighbours to the scheme in one part of the line. So if it’s
![Page 18: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/18.jpg)
18
in tense what Mr Mould says works; if it’s not in tense, make that application and see if
you can get a bit of a bonus from the disturbance of the change in the Royal Mail.
Although I congratulate the church on surviving the construction of the Royal Mail
depot which was probably more disturbing than actually demolishing it.
107. CHAIR: Damian Green, the MP for Ashford, gave us some evidence about HS1
and he said there was one street in Ashford where they had a lot of lorry traffic and they
all had dirty windows. And he said it took months and months and months to try and
get somebody to take responsibility for doing something about the windows. Eventually
the HS1 people worked out that they gave somebody the authority to spend a bit of
money with a window cleaner and that actually took away a lot of the hassle. And I
think one of the things we’re going to have to reflect on is whether or not that’s
something that HS2 are going to have to take onboard; that if there are little things like
that that need doing that make a big difference to a community then that can be done
relatively quickly and not become a nuisance.
108. MR MOULD QC (DfT): We’re already fully committed to that kind of thing and
it’s all dealt with under the small claims scheme. That’s already in the bag as far as –
109. CHAIR: Are organs included?
110. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah. We don’t spell out organs because we didn’t
think of everything but you can assume that within the potential realm of small claims is
dusty organs and cleaning them.
111. CHAIR: Yeah. The essential point was a quick response when there’s an
irritating problem that may not be the biggest problem in the world but one that irritates
residents.
112. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I think the due by date which as required of the
contractors under Crossrail on that sort of thing is done in a week. And I think we will
expect to have performed at least as well as that.
113. CHAIR: So in five years’ time, if you get a letter from the church about their
organ getting clogged up, then they’ll be able to at least reference the proceedings of
this Committee to see that this is something that’s included?
![Page 19: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/19.jpg)
19
114. MR MOULD QC (DfT): You’re addressing me as the promoter rather than…
115. CHAIR: Ah.
116. MR MOULD QC (DfT): ‘Yes’, is the answer. Yeah.
117. FATHER ELSTON: And I suppose my other concern is that when we talk about
lorry traffic you’re not including in that the amount of bus traffic because you’re going
to site a bus stop where buses are going to turn next to the Royal Mail site. So there will
be an increase of public transport along Eversholt Street as well. That’s correct, isn’t it?
That’s not in your graphs.
118. MR MOULD QC (DfT): These are bus stands so there will be buses, yeah.
119. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Are they mainly approaching from the south from
Euston Road?
120. FATHER ELSTON: And they’re turning there. That’s right, isn’t it?
121. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Which is all south of where the church is.
122. FATHER ELSTON: Opposite the church. All the new bus stops will turn directly
opposite the church.
123. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If I look at 12489(2)...
124. FATHER ELSTON: It’s on Barnby Street which is the access to –
125. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We are looking at it, sorry. It does look as though
the buses come in opposite Polygon Road, if I read the map right.
126. FATHER ELSTON: Oh, I see. Yes.
127. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: So I think you’re spared.
128. MR MOULD QC (DfT): You’ll be substituting buses for Royal Mail wagons.
That’s essentially it.
129. CHAIR: Thank you.
![Page 20: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/20.jpg)
20
130. MR BELLINGHAM: And one final suggestion, Mr Mould. What the Father was
saying was that quite a few people will go in the church just to have some quiet time to
themselves and they’ll make a small donation. But if during the period of the
demolition, and indeed during other periods of intense activity, the church find that
people are not going into the church to have those quiet moments and may be losing
income, would the church be able to say to HS2 that ‘during this period our income
went down by X amount?’. Would it at all be able to guide HS2 to make a small
contribution to the church?
131. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Well, they certainly wouldn’t have a claim.
132. MR BELLINGHAM: I’m not talking about a claim. I’m talking about a –
133. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Well, that’s a policy decision and I don’t have
instructions on that so I’ll have to leave that to those behind me. I can certainly ask for
that to be considered.
134. FATHER ELSTON: I’m grateful for that point because my other church, St
Pancras Old Church, has some waterworks. It’s very, very small works and it meant
that people couldn’t cross the road at the crossing. And our candle money, which I
know sounds like a very small amount, usually is about £300 a week. And during the
period that the road was excavated, it went down to about £150. So we lost half our
income just in a month because the crossing was removed. They could cross further
down and further up but that deterrent of just crossing a busy road and getting into a
church just stops people going into the building.
135. And that loss of income, although it’s quite small, it is actually quite significant to
us. We run on a shoestring. We serve very, very poor people. And it’s very easy to
sound trivial about this but people will be deterred from wanting to walk up Eversholt
Street, to cross Eversholt Street. And that will have an effect on the people who want to
come in and want to have an oasis of prayer. It will have an effect on the amount of
people in the box and it will also have an effect on the people who want to let the
building. So lots of charities and groups, we offer the hall at a reduced rate. But that’s
what keeps us going. Now, if half those people decide that, actually, the bus queue up
Eversholt Street is too long to be bothered to let the hall out because it takes an extra
20 minutes to get from Euston and the walk is dreadful because they’re getting smashed
![Page 21: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/21.jpg)
21
by lorries, they’re not going to let our hall out and we’ll have our income reduced. And,
as I say, we’re just about breaking even. So these things, for us, are not inconsiderable..
136. CHAIR: Okay. We’ve heard your final argument and we’ll reflect on what you
say.
137. FATHER ELSTON: Thank you.
138. CHAIR: Thank you for being briefer than you said you were going to be at the
beginning. I think you’re probably a very good person to listen to sermons from.
139. FATHER ELSTON: Thank you. I’ll take that as a compliment.
140. CHAIR: Thank you to both of you for sharing your thoughts.
St Pancras Parish Church Parochial Church Council
141. CHAIR: Right. We go on to 1843, St Pancras Parish Church Parochial Church
Council and AP3-110, which is Dorothea Hackman and Anne Stevens. If you’d like to
do a brief introduction please, Mr Mould.
142. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes. I’ll put up P12476(3). Although I think that
doesn’t quite capture the focus of these petitioners’ concerns. It shows the church on
the other side of Euston Road but I think the principal focus of their concerns, having
looked at their slides, is in the effect of the scheme on St James’ Gardens, which you’ll
recall is just to the west of Euston Station. I think the Committee has visited St James’
Garden. And, that being the case, that of course is a burial ground.
143. By way of opening, just to set the scene, I’ll draw your attention to two things.
First of all, an agreement that we reached with the Archbishops’ Council on
1 April 2015: P12872(1). And if I can take you through to page 5 of that document. If
you just glance at clause 5, under the heading ‘Reburial in Consecrated Ground’, you’ll
see that the promoter has entered into an undertaking with the Archbishops’ Council in
relation to the removal and reburial from existing burial grounds to appropriate
alternative burial places in consecrated grounds of remains that are disturbed as a result
of the works. And we clearly will disturb remains in St James’ Gardens because we
need to take that burial ground for the purposes of constructing Euston Station.
![Page 22: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/22.jpg)
22
144. That’s the first point. And the next point is in relation to open space more
generally. One of the assurances that we have given to Camden, which is at
P11427(23), is a fairly extensive series of commitments in relation to replacing trees lost
to the project in Euston and also in relation to improving existing open space and play
space both during the period of construction of the works and also following completion
of the works to take steps to restore the position permanently, either through actual
provision or where appropriate through contributions towards improving existing open
space in the vicinity of the Euston area. So that’s the context in which this petition –
145. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Can we see that as well, please?
146. MR MOULD QC (DfT): 24.
147. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Yeah.
148. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah. Under the heading ‘Improvements to Existing
Open Space’.
149. CHAIR: Okay, thank you.
150. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah. I can come back to these in more detail if
necessary. Thank you.
151. CHAIR: Mrs Hackman.
152. MRS HACKMAN: Yes. Sorry, I’m just looking at the Camden document. Very
helpful, thank you. I’ve appeared here in a number of capacities; it’s now as a church
warden. And this is the vicar, however: the Reverend Anne Stevens.
153. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: This is the church which has the galleries that was
used for the memorial services for the great railwaymen and the like?
154. MRS HACKMAN: Absolutely. And it has caryatids holding up the porches that
are the entrance to the Crypt. So it’s quite a large building that can hold 600 odd people
so it’s very useful for civic purposes.
155. I’m very aware from the previous sessions that I’ve attended that a huge number
of points that we would have made on behalf of our parishioners have been made and
![Page 23: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/23.jpg)
23
there is no intention for us to repeat those. Just to give you a quick orientation, we
produced an analysis of the first set of petitions together with our fellow Church of
England parishes and there is an addendum for the AP3 petitions. So we have worked
with St Mary’s and also Mary Magdalene in the Regent’s Park Estate. And St Mary’s
didn’t mention it but they have been the venue for the Citizen’s Charter meetings. So
there’s been a lot of interconnectivity around this.
156. But you may wonder perhaps at the difference in appearance of the petitioners for
St Pancras and I’d like to point out that back in the day the ancient parish of St Pancras
simply stretched from Holborn right up to Highgate; and then gradually, as the area
became filled up, you know, you read in Charles Dickens, and indeed you had read to
you from Charles Dickens, how the church was belting through 100 baptisms a day in
the south vestry or the north vestry, actually, and weddings and funerals and so forth.
So by the late 1800s there was a sub-division of the parish into 37 different parishes;
and Old St Pancras Church, which was derelict at that time, was rebuilt.
157. This then was altered considerably by the Second World War as quite a few of the
churches were taken out by the bombs. Of course, they were trying to hit Kings Cross
and Euston regularly. And as churches disappeared, very often the parishes were
reattached to the mother church, which was St Pancras, the big one. Or the new one,
because it was built in 1822. And the result of that is that Christchurch, which was in
Somers Town on the right-hand side and would have been the middle-of-the-road
Church of England church rather than the high Church of England church, Christchurch,
given the churchmanship, was reattached to the mother church; and similarly when
St James was demolished in 1961 in the enthusiastic decade that saw the demolition of
the Euston Arch, that parish to the left of St Pancras was also attached back to the
mother church. So while the church sits south of the Euston Road, we have the two
arms going up either side of Euston Station.
158. What I want to do… If you could put up the first slide, which is just our
introductory slide.
159. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Which is the parish for St Pancras Station?
160. MRS HACKMAN: It’s actually Old St Pancras, which is one of Father Elston’s
churches. And indeed the parish in which I live, as it happens.
![Page 24: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/24.jpg)
24
161. I think the reference to the Archbishops’ Council withdrawing their petition in
exchange for the undertakings that were shown on the screen, and indeed Camden
giving a stack of assurances, shows why the parish on the ground really needs to make
the points that it needs to make, because those who are in charge higher up are rather
given to making agreements that possibly go further than, or insufficiently far, or further
than we would have gone ourselves.
162. So coming to our asks, which are the next slide, you can see that we are very keen
to rebuild Euston in the same footprint, not least to save St James’ gardens, that we’re
extremely concerned about playgrounds and open spaces and indeed trees. And the
issues of decent reburial, it is our vicar who is reburial for those at least 35,000 souls
who are left buried in St James’ Garden in consecrated ground. And I believe that it’s in
the diocese of London rather than the Church Commissioners but I’ll leave that to the
vicar to present. And I’m very happy to hand those over.
163. The middle points will be addressed by the vicar. The last five points – four
points anyway – I think have been so addressed by other organisations that I will leave
them.
164. Next slide, please. And over to you.
165. REVEREND STEVENS: Thank you very much for hearing is today. These are
the two areas that we want to focus on particularly: St James’ Gardens to the left and the
area surrounding Lancing Street to the right of Euston. We have an interest in Lancing
Street because our church hall is right next to the playground. It’s –
166. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We went to the playground, I think.
167. REVEREND STEVENS: You’d have driven right past our church hall which is
the last building on the southern side of the street.
168. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Yeah, walked.
169. REVEREND STEVENS: And just to make a quick point about Lancing Street.
At the moment one of our deep areas of confusion is that we’ve got a certain set of
proposals from HS2 and a certain set of proposals from Crossrail who would like to
actually develop the site on which our whole sits as a worksite. But when you talk to
![Page 25: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/25.jpg)
25
either of them, the lack of a joined up approach is driving us all nuts, frankly. So
whether they might be invited to actually speak to each other and then work together
with the community on restructuring that particular area, that’d be a great help.
170. But the main point we want to draw your attention to is not so much the open
spaces as the green space. So if you could put up the next slide, which is the Google
satellite picture of that same area. Because it shows exactly where every single tree in
the area is. And if you take out the well-established trees in St James’ Gardens on the
left and if you take out the well-established trees to the south in Euston Square and if
you take out the trees in Lancing Street to the right you’ve taken away almost every part
of that picture that is coloured green. The only trees that are left are the trees in the
bottom right corner around our church and on the Euston Road. And obviously, because
of their proximity to the Euston Road, they’re struggling to stay alive as it is. Even
though London planes are hardy, how much more can they bear?
171. Now, historically, St James’ Gardens had been the overflow burial ground for the
Church of St James’ Piccadilly. Then in 1887, I think it was, the St Pancras vestry
bought it from St James’. Now, at that stage Central London was already closed to
burials. We didn’t need it for burials; it was bought to be a public amenity, a public
garden, in an area that was already very densely populated and beginning to become
increasingly polluted. Historically, I guess the St Pancras vestry was subsequently
divided into the church council and the borough council but I think it shows that, in that
Church of England way, you know, the church’s concern for the health and welfare of
every person in the parish has always overseen what we’ve done with St James’
Gardens.
172. So it is particularly frustrating to hear that it’s targeted and described as being its
destruction has to be inevitable for this project to go ahead. We really don’t believe that
the plans to build on the same footprint in Euston Station have been given enough of an
airing. But it is that issue about green space and where are the green lines for that very,
very dense, busy, dirty, hectic area in terms of quality of life? It’s a huge issue. Father
Paschal, who you just heard from, he and I work together for our church school in
Somers Town, St Mary’s and St Pancras, and you just think: what’s the air quality going
to be like for those kids for most of their lives?
![Page 26: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/26.jpg)
26
173. So that’s the point about green space. I’ll come on to just two other points related
to the gardens. The memorials of the gardens, in an area that’s been rebuilt and rebuilt
and rebuilt throughout the 20th and now the 21st centuries. Where to locate the
memorials is a big issue.
174. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: That particular memorial in the centre. The rest got
moved to the edges, I think.
175. REVEREND STEVENS: That’s right. Three of them are listed but the other
tombstones are kind of scattered around the edges of the park, as it were. But all them, I
think, testify to the history of the area. All of them give us a sense of the heritage of the
area and they have a fascinating story to tell. So where are they going? Will they go
with the bodies? Will they stay in the area? We frequently get letters and emails from
people researching their family trees. Obviously we need to know exactly where
people’s remains are and where any memorials are going.
176. The only other point concerns the dead themselves, and I do accept the
undertaking that HS2 have given, albeit to slightly the wrong people in negotiating with
the Archbishops’ Council, that they may have slightly misled you. It’s always a
difficult question, who speaks for the Church of England, but when it comes to the care
of the dead, they belong within the cure of souls that any parish priest exercises in
accord with their local bishop. So, it’s really the diocese and me that you need to
negotiate with on the decent and proper re-burial, if that has to happen, though,
obviously, as you can see from our sign, we rather hope it doesn’t.
177. The historical precedent for this, if you wouldn’t mind going on to – if you jump
ahead to 1729(16), in the early 1880s, a slice of the gardens was taken for expansion of
the London and North West Railway in Euston. As you can see there, I think
approximately 25% of the gardens was then taken for the sum of £1,000 for the ground
– the cemetery where the bodies were re-buried – and paying the cost of the
reinternment. But by way of compensation, a further £8,000 was given in 1883, which
was divided between the church and the parish as it were, honouring the two halves of
the St Pancras vestry. It covered the church and the borough councils, so if you’re
looking for a model for future compensation should it prove necessary, we’d be
delighted to discuss that prospect with you, proportional rates, of course.
![Page 27: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/27.jpg)
27
178. There’s plenty that we could do to preserve what’s left of the historical heritage in
the area in terms of our own caryatid on the Euston Road that you can just about see in
the next slide, number 17. There they stand in all their finery. If you’re interested in
inspecting how much organs decline during the period of your building works, we’d
love to undertake a similar exercise for the caryatids, because busy as the Euston Road
is, we do believe that it’s busy-ness will increase for the length of this project.
179. I think I’ve taken up enough of your time, but those are the concerns really.
Thank you.
180. MRS HACKMAN: If you go to Slide 11, I don’t know whether we can do that
panoramic thing, but in theory, if you go to this website, we can then. I just wanted to –
oh, while you’re going to the website, can I show a different slide?
181. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: You can do one or the other.
182. MRS HACKMAN: Okay, I’ll wait.
183. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: No, no, do both. Do one, and then come back.
184. MRS HACKMAN: No, no, no. I’m happy. I think it’s very good if we do this
while we’re still talking about St James. What we’re keen to just show you here is just
how wide and beautiful. If you just pan – clockwise, or anti-clockwise? Clockwise. If
we just pan clockwise, not up and down, so clockwise all the way around. Now, I’ve
walked through St James’s Gardens on the way here, and counted the trees, and I
counted 27 big trees – trees that you couldn’t put your arms around and meet on the
other side. Clearly, you could hug them.
185. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: This one you can.
186. MRS HACKMAN: I didn’t count the little ones. Of the big ones, there are 27
and 17 of those are clearly from the 1700s. This was a field that was bought to be a
burial ground, and those trees have deep roots going into the ground. There is
absolutely no way that the replacement trees in their pits on the little concrete platforms
will in any way replace these mighty plain trees, and the calculations of the London Eye
Tree Project, which has presented its findings to the House of Lords on 2 December, to
do the work of one of these gigantic 35 metre high plains in terms of dealing with the
![Page 28: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/28.jpg)
28
nitrogen dioxide and the particles, and all of these things, you would need 60 spindly
little lollipop trees with their 14cm diameters and their 3 and a half metre height. There
is no way that the destruction of these trees is anything other than a massive loss and
attack for the people of London.
187. Next slide, 12, please. There you can see – this is what I call – the one on the
right is a mighty tree. This is clearly from the 1700s. That’s a spindly tree in my
reckoning, but it’s massive compared to the replacement trees that are proposed, and this
one is a fairly recent planting, but it’s still quite a big tree. So, there is no way that a
like-for-like, one-for-one replacement of trees is in any way acceptable. The next slides
we’ve already rehearsed.
188. Did we show the Lancing Street Play Area that is Slide 15? If we could just look
at that. The trees there are not huge, but they are, nevertheless, important because they
are the trees in the area, and they’re the trees that we’ve got, and that playground is
being taken out of action for 6, or 7 years while it’s used as a construction site, and the
bits of the High Speed 2 Limited are planning to use – Crossrail too is bagsying – so not
only are the children to the west of the station losing all their playgrounds to
construction compounds, but the children on the east of the station are also losing their
playgrounds, and again, this is just not acceptable.
189. Slide 16. Yeah, okay, it can come up, 16. We’ve already discussed Slide 16, so I
won’t go on about it, but Walter Edwin Brown was clearly a very thorough and
excellent person, and I commend his book, which is available in the City University
Library to anybody who wants to find out more about all these disused burial grounds
that were bought as parks by the vestry.
190. Slide 18, please? Just going quickly past our caryatids again. So, you can see our
asks. Just to emphasize that we want no mature trees felled, decent re-burial in
consecrated ground paid for by High Speed 2 Limited. A request that’s come from quite
a few of the community groups – at least one day a week rest from construction. If this
is going to go on unrelentingly for six years, ten years, seventeen years, different periods
in different areas, to always be able to count on Sunday, or another day if that’s not
possible because they’re pouring concrete into piles, or whatever, so that people can
reckon with space and peace inside their own head, and time to get homework done, and
![Page 29: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/29.jpg)
29
all of those things. I think that would be hugely beneficial. The final point ties in with
the first point, which is – if you rebuild Euston in the same footprint, you will not need
to destroy St James’s Gardens and parishioners’ homes because those homes in Cobourg
Street are the parishioners of this parish, and the homes in Regents Park Estate are of
course the parishioners of Mary Magdalen, so all homes are in some parish. If you were
to rebuild in the same footprint, you would not need to demolish our gardens and our
homes, and if you are going to do that, then you should compensate the living. I think it
is truly shameful that compensation is only tied to property, not to life experience and
the human right to the peaceful enjoyment of your own home. Thank you.
191. CHAIR: Mr Mould.
192. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Professor McNaughton explained in his evidence on 30
November…
193. MRS HACKMAN: Slide 19 – it’s just a picture for people to look at.
194. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I’m grateful, but I think, if you’ll forgive me, I’ll go
back to the previous slide so I can speak to the asks that you’re – delightful though that
picture was. Professor McNaughton, on 30 November, in his evidence, explained why it
wasn’t feasible to rebuild Euston Station in the same footprint. We have given a series
of commitments to Camden, which are recorded over several pages in the commitment
letter of 30 November, beginning at page 23 of that letter, and going through to page 27
of that letter, which deal with the requirements they had of us in relation to the provision
of replacement trees, and the maintenance of appropriate open space, both during the
construction works and the provision of open space to address that which is affected
permanently by the scheme on a permanent basis.
195. We are unable to give a commitment that no mature trees be felled, particularly in
St James’s Gardens because in order to construct the station to the west of the existing
station, unfortunately, we have no option but to fell trees in St James’s Gardens. The
provisions as to replacement trees I have shown the Committee a few moments ago on
pages 11427, 23 and 24. There’s no need to turn it up again, but those are the
arrangements that London Borough of Camden require of us, and as I understand it, one
of the things that the London borough are concerned about is that that which is required
of us should be achievable, and I say that because we live in – this is a densely
![Page 30: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/30.jpg)
30
developed urban environment, and the London borough are keen that there should be a
proper balance between the need to replace trees that are lost, and appropriate planting
of replacement trees within that densely developed urban environment.
196. I’ve drawn attention to the agreement – the undertaking we’ve given on the re-
burial of human remains in the agreement of April of this year. Schedule 19 to the bill
and further clauses in that agreement, particularly clauses 6 and 7. Perhaps – I don’t
need you to put it up. For the record, it’s P1287(26) – deal with, firstly, the provision of
a memorial monument at any place which is consecrated for the purposes of re-burial of
remains that are removed from burial grounds as a result of the scheme, and also deals
with the handling of monuments that are removed, and it is – there is a clear process
whereby attempts will be made to find an appropriate place at which to relocate
individual monuments, including gravestones. But where such a place cannot be
located, then the obligation of the nominated undertaker, by agreement with the
Archbishop’s Council is that such monuments should be broken up, and obviously the
reason for that is out of respect for those whom they commemorate.
197. The duration of working hours are subject to regulation by the London Borough of
Camden in the exercise of its powers under the Control of Pollution Act. We’ve
explained that it is impossible to undertake the works that are required at Euston, in the
Euston throat, without quite a substantial amount of working outside of the core
working hours. But all working hours will be regulated by the London Borough of
Camden, under the licensing regime, under the Control of Pollution Act.
198. As regards the use of Old Oak Common as a terminus, Professor McNaughton has
explained in his evidence the difficulties with that as a proposition. We’ve given
commitments to Camden and to Transport for London, and the Greater London
Authority in relation to planning to seek to maximise the amounts of material that is
brought in and taken out by rail. I dealt with that in some detail yesterday. There is a
coherent plan to rebuilt Hampstead Road Bridge and commitments as regards that
bridge given both to Camden and the Greater London Council and Transport for
London, principally to the strategic authorities rather than the London borough in the
respect.
199. Time of information – resolution of complaints – dealt with that earlier this
![Page 31: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/31.jpg)
31
morning, and so far as compensating the living is concerned, I note again a reference to
the human right to enjoyment of one’s own home. There is no difficulty at all with this
scheme honouring that right, which is Article 8 of the European Convention, because it
has been accepted by the relevant courts that measures taken to mitigate the impact of
construction works on people in their home are a more effective means, in practice, of
vouchsafing their rights to quiet enjoyment of their home, than paying them money in
order to disturb them. Prevention rather than financial remedy is a more effective
remedy. Unless I can help further, those are my responses.
200. Oh, Lancing Street Play Area. Yes, I shall just deal with that. If we just put up
P1185(110), this is an area of open space, in respect of which we may need to carry out
some utilities works. You can see the area concerned here, the playground and the
compound. In the event that we do have to carry out those works, they’re likely to last
between three and six months and after they’ve been completed, the area would be
restored to its existing state. So, it would be a temporary intrusion, and as I say, it may
in fact not be necessary. I understand from those behind me that the commitment I gave
yesterday in relation to Albert Street North is a general commitment. That is to say we
should be able to give the local community more certain information about the precise
extent of utilities works in the area by the middle of 2016. Do you remember? I made
that point in relation to Albert Street.
201. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Are those the utility works the scheme requires?
202. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes.
203. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Obviously it doesn’t cover utility works that utilities
might choose to do in their normal course of replacement?
204. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That’s right, and that leads me to the final point, which
Ms Lean very rightly reminds me of: there was a concern about whether we were
committed to integrating with Crossrail 2. There is a commitment in relation to that in
the Camden assurance letter. Again, for the record, it’s at pages 12 and 13 of that letter.
No, it isn’t. It’s pages 3 and 4 of that letter, and effectively, what it says is that the
Euston Station Strategic Redevelopment Board, of which all interested statutory parties
will be members, including the London Borough and TFL as the putative promoter of
Crossrail 2, will seek to secure the integration of the delivery of a number of projects,
![Page 32: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/32.jpg)
32
including, firstly, HS2 Euston Station and thirdly, Crossrail 2 proposals at Euston.
That’s it.
205. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Can I ask two questions? One is the consecrated
ground to which bones will go, as I understand it, actually, the incumbent has the cure of
souls in the care of bones, rather than – is the parish likely to be consulted as to where a
suitable consecrated ground might be? The Archbishop’s Council doesn’t seem to be
very clear on that. I suspect it would be at least a courtesy.
206. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, what I’m not entirely clear on is whether the
Diocese and Advisory Committee includes the parish priest.
207. REVEREND STEVENS: Well, you would hope there would be a consultation
process.
208. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I mean, in other words, whether this is an internal matter
for the church, rather than – I’m slightly concerned about giving you commitments
about that here.
209. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It was a question rather than asking for a
commitment.
210. MR MOULD QC (DfT): It’s because I don’t want to muck it up, basically…
211. REVEREND STEVENS: I’m afraid it also depends on the state of the remains
and how much space they might require, because if there’s not much there, we could
offer our own crypt, which still has remains in, or if not, then the St Pancras Cemetery
up in Finchley still exists, and can take the overflow as it did in the 1880s.
212. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I’ll say this wrong, but I did want to make sure that
you do get the chance of contributing. On the question of the memorial, which may, or
may not be broken up, it may be open to the PCC, or somebody to see whether they can
get a lottery grant of some kind to see whether they can do a recording at least of what
may be going. If there are some memorials which are of particular interest and in
reasonable condition, I think it would be appropriate to consider whether they can be
placed in a part of the garden that isn’t going to be destroyed. And the last point,
coming to the trees, I think we would hope that the replacement won’t just be one for
![Page 33: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/33.jpg)
33
one, but there will be as many trees put in as is appropriate to the area without just
limiting it to saying, if 70 trees are going, 70 are going to be replaced, and it seems to
me that we all benefit by the trees that are put in even around Westminster. If I look at
Old Palace Yard, there are some good trees there, which were put in 15 years after I
became an MP. I think they’ve been there rather longer, so I think having street trees
and other spaces used would be a good idea. I’m sure Camden will look to do what they
can to take local ideas from local people.
213. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I’m sure that’s right. I make it clear that the
arrangements that I’ve referred to about the treatment of monuments, those are a
framework, but obviously within that, there’s plenty of opportunities for people to come
up with sensible ideas about how things might be done.
214. CHAIR: Brief final comments.
215. MRS HACKMAN: We are deeply shocked the very idea of breaking up the
historic gravestones. I mean, I know that archaeological surveys about own crypt bind
us to notify all those academics who are desperately interested in why people died, who
died, when and where. It seems to me not only sacrilegious, but completely
contemptuous of archaeological evidence to just break up the stones, so we really want
to know more about this, and we want to be involved in any discussion, or decision
about it.
216. Could we put up 1185?
217. CHAIR: Brief final comments. I hope we’re not going back to the…
218. MRS HACKMAN: No, no. I just want to make the point about the trees sitting
on the concrete, very quickly. So, it’s P1185(26). So, you can see that these
replacement trees could not possibly be big mature trees because they’re sitting on
concrete, and they will only be in pits that are pots, and I have since learnt by reading
this report, that it ought to be possible for the mature trees to be saved, preserved and
replanted, and therefore, I think it’s very important that all those options are explored
properly. Perhaps not for those from the 1700s, but certainly for the ones that are only a
hundred years old. I don’t think we have anything else to add. We are unconvinced by
the undertakings of the Archbishop’s Council, and the assurances of Camden Council.
![Page 34: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/34.jpg)
34
219. CHAIR: Okay, thank you very much indeed. Thank you. We now move on to
the next petitioner, which is AP337, Camden People’s Theatre.
Camden People’s Theatre
220. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The theatre is located on the corner of Drummond Street
and Hampstead Road. The concern, I think, is about noise and construction traffic, and
we are – I think – I can show you in a moment when we’ve heard the petitioner’s
presentation, what the predicted effects are in relation to those matters, but suffice to say
that we’re not predicting any significant adverse noise effects on the theatre, and whilst
there will be traffic, obviously, on the roads around the theatre, I can explain the levels
of that in a moment, or two.
221. CHAIR: Beyond the Magic Circle?
222. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah, the Magic Circle I think is Stephenson Way, I
think, if I remember rightly, which is the other side of the road.
223. CHAIR: Okay, thank you.
224. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I think so. You’ll tell me if I’ve got that wrong.
225. CHAIR: Okay, carry on.
226. MS MASSIE-BLOMFIELD: Hello. I’m Amber Massie-Blomfield. I’m the
Executive Director of Camden People’s Theatre, and if I could go to the next slide, or
the slide after next, that can show you where we’re situated. Oh, sorry, scroll on
through to the next one. Yes, so this is our position, and if you go on to the next photo,
that will give you an idea of where we are on Drummond Street. So, we are a 60 seater
community arts space. We’re situated here on the corner of Drummond Street and
Hampstead Road, and we’ve been based in this location for 21 years. We serve around
15,000 audience members each year, and we’re an Arts Council funded venue. We
were the only theatre in London to join the Arts Council’s national portfolio in the
2015/18 funding round.
227. We do an awful lot of work with the local community, so for example, we’ve just
launched a new Camden Youth Theatre, which we’re working in partnership with the
![Page 35: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/35.jpg)
35
Fitzrovia Community Centre, and the New Diorama Theatre and we do lots of different
outreach projects throughout the year.
228. I think it’s great to be here following on from the churches because actually,
there’s a really strong resonance between our needs and what the needs of the churches
are, and what role theatre can play, and I think it’s important to think about the role
these kinds of community and cultural spaces can play in communities that are facing
change, and helping communities to broker that change. So, in particular, we’re doing a
lot of work, actually, exploring HS2 creatively. We’ve got a collaboration with Mack in
Birmingham exploring the impact of HS2, and we also have a big festival in January
called Who’s London Is It Anyway? Which is exploring the impacts of regeneration.
229. So, to our concerns regarding noise, we have received late yesterday some
reassurances about this from HS2, but none the less, I think it’s worth recognising that
theatre spaces, much like churches, face a very specific set of requirements to operate
our business. We need to be able to create absolute silence to be able to deliver a
meaningful artistic and creative experience, and our theatre backs straight onto that
road. Literally, those double doors you can see in the top right hand corner, those open
up pretty much onto our stage space. So, any increase in noise has a really, really,
significant effect on our ability to carry out our business, and whilst the impact that’s
going to be faced by us isn’t going to be deemed significant, the building works are 75
metres away from our site, and we’re going to have a huge increase in traffic. I think
we’re facing about 150 additional cars per hour, and up to 25 heavy good vehicles per
day, which, as you can imagine, if one of these heavy duty vehicles is coming past in the
middle of a quiet moment in a performance, it can have a really, really big effect on us.
230. We’ve also got concerns about access to the site for loading and unloading set,
which is something we need to do several times a week. So, that’s our first concern, and
we’re requesting an acoustic survey at our site to measure the impact of that on us.
Also, that the Theatre’s Trust is consulted. The Theatre’s Trust is the statutory body
that’s responsible for looking after and protecting theatre sites, and I’m just a custodian
of this theatre. I may still be Executive Director there in 20 years’ time. I may not be,
and actually, it’s really, really important that while this work is happening, both to our
site, and to other theatres and arts venues that are being affected by this, that there’s
proper consultation undertaken and that the particular considerations of what running
![Page 36: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/36.jpg)
36
these kind of spaces means and what they require are taken into account. So, that’s the
first point.
231. So, the second point. We’ve raised some concerns in our original petition
regarding the impact on community cohesion and what’s being done to promote
community cohesion in a time of great change for our local area. We were sent, in
response to this, the community and environment fund and business and local economy
fund document C12. So, this fund is £30 million. The fund is set up to add benefit to
the communities along the route that is demonstrably disrupted by the construction of
HS2. So, this fund is going to cover the entire route of phase 1 and it’s going to deal
with community and environment and business and local economy. That’s a huge scope
of different areas for one fund to cover. What our needs might be as a community arts
organisation are going to be vastly, vastly different to local business, or thinking about
environment. And also, our needs in Camden, as a community, are going to be very,
very different to another community. So, we would like some clarity about what
consultation has been undertaken to arrive at this figure of £30 million. I think it’s
running for the entire duration of the build as well. So, it’s going to be spread very
thinly indeed. Would there be the possibility of having a dedicated Camden Community
Fund to respond to the specific needs of our community as opposed to other
communities? So, that’s our next ask.
232. The final thing I want to address is around the principles around the use of
meanwhile space around this site. This is something that often gets overlooked in big
construction projects. A meanwhile space – the ways in which they’re used really has
the capacity to really change the timbre of an area. You see places like Brixton Market,
for example, the way the shops there have been used can really, really change the
atmosphere and the qualitative experience of an area.
233. Now, because meanwhile space is a temporary, often there isn’t a very strong
ethical framework in place to establish how these should be used and whether the ways
in which they are used are responsive to the needs of the local community and the wants
of the local community, and very often, they get used for pop up projects that drop in
and leave again very quickly and don’t have a real meaningful relationship with the
community and what the needs of that community are. So, we would like to see an
ethical framework put in place for the use of how meanwhile spaces – I mean, I know
![Page 37: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/37.jpg)
37
that the National Temperance Hospital is already coming to use, but it would be great if
there was an ethical framework put into place with community organisations to establish
the best use of those meanwhile spaces in a meaningful way for the local community.
234. I think those are the key points I want to cover today.
235. CHAIR: Okay, thank you. Mr Mould.
236. MR MOULD QC (DfT): So far as engagement – keeping local community
facilities such as theatres and the churches properly informed of the works and the
programme of works so that they can make their plans and we can be aware of what
those plans are, it’s essentially the same point to the one that I made to you earlier in
relation to the church. This is also the sort of facility which the nominated undertaker
and the contractors will expect to have in mind, and their needs are part of the detailed
planning of traffic management and advance notice of works and that kind of thing. So,
I won’t – if you’ll forgive me – say any more than that.
237. So far as the community fund is concerned, I’ve explained the Secretary of State’s
approach to that, and he has, as you know, taken the view that it’s a matter of policy that
that should be a route-wide fund and the Committee may, or may not have something to
say about that, as I understand it, in its report.
238. The issue of meanwhile uses, we have given a commitment to Camden, which is
at P1142731. In relation to meanwhile uses, I take the point that careful thought needs
to be given to making best use of opportunities that arise in that respect, but I see no
reason, in principal, why that shouldn’t – those points shouldn’t be dealt with within the
context of this assurance. 11.1, as you can see, the Secretary of State will require the
nominated undertaker to use reasonable endeavours to engage with the London borough
throughout detailed design to identify opportunities for possible meanwhile uses for
vacant, or blighted buildings resulting from HS2 works in the London borough area, and
where these are identified, the nominated undertaker will, so far as reasonably practical,
enable third parties to use the facilities for the duration of the opportunity so far as it
does not impact on the timely economic and safe delivery of the proposed scheme, and
subject to any necessary consents and costs being obtained by the third party, so there
are opportunities likely to arise and that is the framework within which advantage can
be taken of them. I think that covers, albeit briefly, the three points that were raised.
![Page 38: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/38.jpg)
38
239. CHAIR: We will have to reflect on some of the points you have made as well,
particularly when it comes to community funding. A lot of people have said, ‘Good
idea, not enough money’, and, ‘What if it all goes up the line and we don’t get very
much?’ so I think from your point of view that is quite important. Brief final
comments?
240. MS MASSIE-BLOMFIELD: Yes, just particularly on the Meanwhile Space, I
think there is a big qualitative difference between identifying opportunities for them to
be used and actually considering how they are being used ethically and in a strategic
way for the benefit of the community. It would be really positive if there could be an
undertaking if they were going to be used in a way that benefits the community rather
than simply opportunities being identified.
241. The other point, thinking back to the churches, is there was a suggestion of an
undertaking to communicate with the faith communities along the route of Phase One.
It would be wonderful if there was a specific connection with the arts organisations
along that route and some consultation with the Arts Council about the impact it will
have on arts organisations and what happens with the arts.
242. CHAIR: You can leave that interesting thought with us. Thank you very much
indeed for your contribution today. We now move on to AP3:49 Ampthill Square,
Tenants and Residents Association represented by Frances Heron and Louise Fletcher. I
understand that there are some petitioners who will also be taken at the same time:
1342, Peter Astor; 918, Jacquelin Haggett; 915, David and Nicola Lincoln; AP3:126,
Paul Tomlinson.
Ampthill Square Tenants and Residents Association and others
243. CHAIR: Do you want to do a brief introduction, Mr Mould, then we will go to
Ms Heron.
244. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I will see if I can just set the scene for the petitioners
that are coming up now. We have the construction plan for AP3 from the
Environmental Statement map book. Ampthill, the estate itself, is essentially this area
here. You have Gilfoot, Dalehead, and Oxenholme. You see the footprints of those
three blocks. Now, you can see that reasonably close to the estate we have three work
sites. We have the Royal Mail Delivery Office satellite compound, which is associated
![Page 39: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/39.jpg)
39
with the demolition and bus stand creation works that we mentioned earlier. Then we
have the two Hampstead Road Bridge satellite compounds south and north. South, as
you can see, is actually going on to the estate itself. This compound and the northern
compound are both associated, as the name implies, with the works to take down and
then reconstruct Hampstead Road Bridge.
245. There are more detailed explanations of the works to be undertaken in relation to
those compounds in P11269 – I won’t go to those now – in relation to Royal Mail;
Hampstead Road Bridge south, P11263, and Hampstead Road Bridge north, P11262.
We may look at those briefly a little later on this morning. If we can turn to P11846-10,
I will just give you a little bit more information about the works at and near to the estate.
Here again is the estate. Here are the three blocks that I mentioned. These red lines
show the routes of utilities. As you can see, as you would expect there are a good deal
of utilities in and around the estate. There are a substantial number of utilities both
within Hampstead Road itself and within the bridge, and then also running over a utility
gantry, which is this structure here, which goes across the railway line.
246. There are also existing utilities within the estate along this line here and along this
line here, just to the west of Gilfoot. There are also utilities not shown on here which
are private utilities owned by the London Borough of Camden as the freeholder which
serve the plot itself with gas and water, principally.
247. In order to keep this area powered, lit and supplied with water, etc., including the
estate whilst we carry out these works, particularly whilst we take down and replace
Hampstead Road Bridge, we need to find an alternative route to those utilities. Having
looked carefully at the alternatives that are available to us, those which we are really
driven to rely on are firstly taking some of those utilities over a temporary gantry along
this line to the west of the Hampstead Road and secondly taking them over a gantry just
to the south of the existing gantry, which as you can see is shown as a temporary
utilities bridge. In relation to that temporary utilities bridge, we have no realistic
alternative but to bring those utilities through the Ampthill Estate along this line that
you can see here, and that’s the function of the proposed temporary diversion. So,
effectively two temporary re-routing of utilities whilst we rebuild the Hampstead Road
Bridge. One is to the west and one is this route to the east via the Ampthill Estate and
over the temporary bridge.
![Page 40: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/40.jpg)
40
248. We are showing as a potential requirement some works to the existing utilities
along the line that I am showing now and along the line that I am showing now, but we
may not need to do that. We may need to do no more than just inspect those utilities in
order to check that the works we do will not affect them to any significant degree.
Again, we expect to be able to know with much greater clarity the degree to which we
need to do works to disturb those existing runs by the middle of next year, so we will be
able to give much clearer information to local people by that date.
249. That is a brief synopsis of the works that we have to do and the direct effects that
those works will have on the estate. Essentially, it comes down to utilities works and
the presence of those work sites in the vicinity of the estate that I mentioned a few
moments ago.
250. MS HERON: Good morning. You will be pleased to know that I have got myself
together a lot better than I had yesterday. I would be very grateful if you would allow
me to read out a short statement on behalf of the residents.
251. As the appointed representatives for the people of Ampthill Square who face
multiple significant impacts of unprecedented duration from the proposed scheme, we
beg your Committee to hear our petition and to allow sufficient time for us to raise and
for you to consider some very important issues. The treatment that our community has
received from HS2 over the past three years has been less than fair. Rather than give
additional support and time to disadvantaged communities, instead the problems we face
on Ampthill Square have received little or no attention. We just now turn to your
Committee as the only democratic input we have available to hear the multiple strands
of our petition and to assist us, if possible, to address this injustice. We will be as
focused as possible but the issues are too grave to be rushed and we put our trust in your
Committee to hear our petitions fairly. We feel our understandable concerns have
hitherto been ignored.
252. Contained in some of the promoter’s exhibits we received during the past week
has been some information, albeit a high level of information, that we have been seeking
for many months. Our main petition issues will cover utility diversions, construction
compounds, maintenance of our security, challenges for safeguarding areas, habitability
issues, outdoor space and some other less significant issues including parking.
![Page 41: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/41.jpg)
41
253. The first two of these petition issues, the utilities diversion and construction
compound, need urgent resolution as they form part of the enabling works which are
planned to be carried out before Royal Assent in the second half of the coming year.
Thank you.
254. MS FLETCHER: Not only do Fran and I submit this on behalf of the TRA of
which she is chairman and I am secretary, but we collected 254 signatories from people
on the estate. If you wish to see who they are, they were attached to the original
petition. I am not going to name them all here.
255. As mentioned before, there are some associated petitions. We will read the
statements from the people following the Ampthill Square petition. Next, please. Did
you want to give a brief history?
256. MS HERON: Just briefly, some years ago we did a little research. There is not a
lot about Ampthill Square but it appears that this land came to the Duke of Bedford as
part of a dowry, that Crowndale Road up at the top there was known as Fig Lane and the
land on which the estate sits was known as Fig Mead. Once the Duke of Bedford had
completed his building in Bloomsbury he turned his attention to the land north of the
Euston Road, which of course in those days was coming out of the central city.
257. Ampthill Square – although it was, of course never a square, it was a sort of
ellipse – was built as the mirror twin of Oakley Square, which still survives mostly
intact. At the time it was larger than it is now because during the intervening years the
railway had spread significantly from a very narrow track into Euston right across as it
is today. Interestingly, the orientation of the square was diagonal to dissociate itself
from the north/south grid of Somers Town, which was slum properties. So, this was at
the time a well-to-do bit of land. It was a gated community and the gates were open on
a Sunday to allow the good people of Ampthill to go to church in St Mary’s.
258. MS FLETCHER: I am going to say a little about what Ampthill is today. As it
stands it was built in the sixties and on the map before you, you see it is basically in
several sections. There is a section of three 20-storey tower blocks, of which many of
the Committee had the opportunity to go on top of – mainly Gilfoot, which is that one –
which overlook the whole Euston area, but it also has seven low rise buildings as they
are called, which consist of maisonettes. They are six storeys tall, and then there is
![Page 42: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/42.jpg)
42
Holmrook, which is mixed commercial and residential use with shops on the ground
floor and apartments above, and then some commercial buildings as well. Also in the
middle is green space that is accessible by the public during daylight hours, similar to a
park. It contains a playground.
259. The next slide, please. This is an old map superimposed on top of today and as
Fran was saying, you can see the outline in yellow of the old Ampthill Square, which
isn’t a square, and then the pink is the outline of the Ampthill today. It is interesting to
note if you are over those shapes on top of the satellite view, that the mature trees and
the open area, which is a London square, still correspond with the original Ampthill
Square. So, some of these trees are quite mature and have been there a long time. The
green dot is highlighting a tree that sits in the area of the high rises which appears to
have been in somebody’s back garden. This map was from 1913. The next slide.
260. MS HERON: Could I just butt in for a minute? In terms of the maps, the maps
that the promoter has been working with are very much out of date. They contain sheds
and garages that were demolished at least 10 years ago and they don’t show the areas of
fenced sections of the estate, which are round three tower blocks and also round the low
rise. They don’t show the current paths either.
261. MS FLETCHER: This is a slide that just shows a bit about the demographics of
Ampthill Square. There are 366 households and in the order of 1000 residents and of
those, as you would expect, most are rented social housing from the London Borough of
Camden. However, in the order of 20 to 25% are leaseholders, of which I am one. I
have combined here owned and privately rented in the demographics because if any
apartment is rented there, it is because somebody has bought it through a right to buy
and are now a landlord. So, really the owned rate is in the order of, as I say, 20 to 25%.
We are a very mixed community and very diverse in terms of ethnic groups. We have a
large number of children, which is why our play areas are so important and need to be
safe and secure. Perhaps we can go on, please. Fran will now talk a little about the
recent history and the regeneration project.
262. MS HERON: Yes, if you wouldn’t mind. I don’t need to stress to those of you
who came and had a bird’s eye view from the top of Gilfoot just how close we are to
Euston Station, the epicentre of a hurricane revamp. A colleague made the observation
![Page 43: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/43.jpg)
43
that we are in the eye of an 18-year storm. So, we believe it is important that the
Committee understand the history of Ampthill to recognise how vital it is that our
security system remains functional throughout.
263. Briefly, for many years we suffered from multiple problems. At the time the
estate was in need of investment but there was no fencing, it was completely open to the
world; the environment was very hostile – it was very much like a concrete jungle and
you could get into it from any which way. Because it was an island site, it attracted an
enormous number of things that you would not want to attract. It was frequented by
people who sold drugs openly; there was a low level of violence; the blocks were used
continually by rough sleepers and so it was a very unpleasant place to live. When the
London Borough of Camden decided that it was time to invest in Ampthill, a
£20 million regeneration scheme followed. After extensive consultation with residents
asking them what it was that they wished most to see, although we were offered new
kitchens and new bathrooms, the overwhelming majority wanted a comprehensive
security system so that their quality of life could be improved. Strangely enough, the
second priority was parking.
264. So, we just want to point out that if things aren’t managed very carefully and our
security isn’t kept intact we could revert to the dark ages and rather than Euston Station
being a go-to place, Ampthill will be the go-to place for all the things that we had to
endure in the past, even gangs coming from outside of the borough to fight it out on our
estate. At one time we had the mounted police there because they’d had a tip-off. So,
you understand that we had a really, really hard time.
265. CHAIR: I understand that you want to give some background but at the moment
we are going to be going through our lunch hour listening to other petitioners and we
really need to get to what you want to ask the promoters.
266. MS FLETCHER: The next slide, please. They said there is utility work and that
is true, and there are compounds, which I will show in a bit but we are also immediately
adjacent to the demolition of Hampstead Road bridge. We have a barrette wall that will
go in. There is demolition and then the work kind of proceeds around and then there
will be a demolition of Royal Mail and rebuilding and we are right next to the
excavation. I have drawn a line that borders where that work will be and you can see
![Page 44: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/44.jpg)
44
that the entire estate is within 200 metres of that.
267. MS HERON: The next slide, please. Right out of the blue, even though we had
been attending community forum meetings, we received this document – we suddenly
acquired a document telling us that HS2 Limited wanted land on the estate. It wasn’t
clear whether it was permanent or temporary and you will see that in this corner here
there is a square with a corner that is taken off it in dark grey, which also represents the
land that has been taken. Clearly, you can’t demolish a corner of a tower block, so it
caused an enormous amount of concern to the residents living in that block.
268. MS FLETCHER: In the next slide, the corner is Gilfoot.
269. MS HERON: Yes, so the residents of Gilfoot were really, really upset. Despite
our pleading with HS2 to come down and talk, they refused to do so and that has set the
scene, I am afraid, for everything that has happened since. Could we go back to the
previous slide because that is the actual document that we received? This area here,
which borders on Barnaby Street which has been safeguarded. That goes inside the
perimeter fence, or the access fence right up to the buildings. It also doesn’t look
particularly pleasant. One of the reasons for that is because right across the road as you
drive into the estate is the playground. It used to be a lovely playground. The Princes
Trust came down and regenerated it and painted it in bright colours. It was beautiful but
we had to stop using it because it was invaded by Japanese knotweed from the railway
and it also spread to this area here so we have been unable to plant anything in there.
We have challenged the need for that space to be safeguarded.
270. The next slide, please. Could we introduce our witness, please?
271. MR O’NEILL: Good morning. My name is Pat O’Neill. I am the Head of
Service Delivery for Camden.
272. MR LEWIS: Would you mind if I just very briefly intervene on behalf of the
London Borough of Camden Council. I just wanted to say for the record that Mr
O’Neill is here as an employee of the London Borough of Camden. I just make clear
that he is not representing the London Borough of Camden. The council were asked for
help to assist the Committee and the petitioners and I just want to make it clear that his
views don’t necessarily represent Camden’s petitioning views as a whole and, indeed, I
![Page 45: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/45.jpg)
45
think the subject which he is going to talk about might be subject to further discussion
between Camden and HS2 in future.
273. CHAIR: That answers the question why you are here. Okay, thank you. Please
continue.
274. MR LEWES: That answers the question.
275. CHAIR: Okay, thank you. Please continue.
276. MR O’NEILL: I have been asked to come along and respond to some questions
that were put to me by the residents of Ampthill, the first being, basically, what do I do
on the estate, what is my role on the estate, what function do I carry out, the second
being around trying to explain to the Committee the logistics of access to Ampthill
Estate and the third being to give the Committee some understanding of what utilities
enter Ampthill Estate, how many people they supply and what would the impact be of
these being disturbed.
277. I thought I would I begin by just explaining to the Committee what my role is. As
Head of Service Delivery I am responsible for basically the maintenance of the heavy
stuff within Camden. In Ampthill, as I am sure you are very much aware, 10 residential
blocks and some commercial units. That represents a total number of families of 366.
You have seen the split of the estate between high rise and low rise and you have seen
how the estate functions logistically.
278. My role is to look at maintaining the M&E infrastructure. That includes heating
and in the tower blocks there is a different form of heating from in the low rise. The
heating in the tower blocks is generated from a different heating system, in other words
all the properties have a communal boiler and in fact the communal boilers are within
two of the tower blocks. The lower rises have individual boilers but it is still my role to
maintain those services.
279. That also includes maintaining the gas supply to the properties. It includes
maintaining communal lighting on the estate. We have a significant infrastructure of
lighting columns on the estate and heat within the blocks and the common parts. It
involves heating and water services within the plants.
![Page 46: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/46.jpg)
46
280. Ms Heron has referred to security and part of that is the door entry systems. I
control the door entry systems. I also look after fire protection in the blocks, lifts, of
which we have 15 throughout the estate, and occasionally, for reasons that are still
beyond me, I get dragged into trying to assist in repairing the telecoms infrastructure in
the estate. I think the problem is that when it was installed it was installed by what then
went on to become various successors, Telewest and now it’s Virgin Media, and it’s still
the original infrastructure in there and we get dragged into repairing that.
281. I also look at the voids and there are still empty properties at the back end of the
estate. That is where the properties have been 25 to 38 years on the estate. I also have
responsibility for delivering Camden’s capital assets which is both replacement of
capital assets on both the property side and the M&E side, and that is currently
approximately £60 million a year for the borough. I also do major repairs and that is my
role for Camden. I hope that helps to explain the role.
282. I was asked to comment on the logistics of access to Ampthill. It is in many ways
quite simple but in some ways it can interfere with the ability to deliver a service. There
are three vehicle access points on to the estate. One is from Eversholt Street further
south of Holmrook; there is another vehicle gate that turns left from that and goes down
through the main access, which is from Holmrook and there is another vehicle access
gate from Paddington Square directly opposite the north face of Oxenholme and another
vehicle access gate from Barnby Street going up to the car park on the south area of the
estate. The main vehicle access for my teams delivering services to the estate is from
Eversholt Street down into the raised block or indeed from Mornington Square into the
high rise blocks and that’s the significance of any activity, as you have probably
guessed.
283. I don’t want to bore the Committee with a lot of facts and figures about how many
repairs I do and how much they cost but if I move on to issues around access, I liaise
significantly with the local fire authority over means of escape, making sure that they
have access to and from our sites and indeed working with them, strangely enough, I
release people from this. One comment I would like to make in that respect is that the
last fire we had on the estate was at Gilfoot, which was three years ago. It was a Sunday
afternoon.
![Page 47: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/47.jpg)
47
284. MS HERON: No, it was a few months ago.
285. MR O’NEILL: Yes, sorry, I am thinking back to Oxenholme. I stand corrected,
but significantly the fire authority chose to place their appliances on Hampstead Road to
fight that fire but rescue people from inside the estate go into the block from the main
hinterland of the estate.
286. The utilities we have coming into Ampthill Estate have been commented on by
HS2. We have a complicated gas infrastructure that enters the estate through the north
of Dalehead. It then splits and diverts along the west face of Dalehead down towards
Gilfoot and provides service into Gilfoot. It also diverts along the west face of
Dalehead and then crosses the estate and goes over to Oxenholme. The diversification
of the gas supply then splits into a number of different channels and runs down through
the estate. The water services come on to the estate – Thames Water Services, enter the
estate. One point of entry is from Eversholt Street through south of Holmrook. It then
splits and provides service to Holmrook and goes down to the south of the estate to
provide services to the low rise blocks. There are two other points of access from
Hampstead Road. One goes directly into Dalehead from Hampstead Road over the west
side of Dalehead and one from Hampstead Road on to the west side of Gilfoot. We then
take services from those and split them and diversify them through to the other
properties on the estate.
287. So the Committee can see that it a significant proportion of the services within the
estate are owned, managed and repaired by London Borough of Camden. I will make
no other comment than that.
288. I was asked to comment on what would be the impact of these utilities being
interrupted. I can only do so in the context of experience. We had an incident in the
very recent past in a neighbouring property in the borough where the utility company
cut into – by the contractors under their supervision – a gas supply. It took 12 days to
reinstate that gas supply and that supply affected 102 flats. I had a similar incidence in
2011 on an estate not too far from Ampthill Estate just about this time of year where the
same sort of incident occurred again under the supervision rather than done by the utility
companies. I think it is important to reflect on that and on how much control we may
have over the utility companies when they get on to doing these works.
![Page 48: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/48.jpg)
48
289. Those were the points that I was asked to respond to. I hope I have been brief
enough and succinct enough to give you a flavour.
290. CHAIR: Right, carry on.
291. MS HERON: Could we have the next slide, please? We need to go back to slide
number 9, please. I just wanted the Committee to note that we are not talking of tiddly
little trenches here. We’re talking of big ones. The legend shows the size of them. I
believe that they have got bigger since AP3. So, you will hear from others later about
where they are in relation to their property but also you can see it goes straight through a
very well-used multi-use games pitch.
292. I can’t say any more than I really think serious consideration should be given to
trying to find an alternative way. Even if it costs a little more and it is going to be more
complicated it would relieve the misery of people living on our estate who are facing so
much else on top of the utilities for 17 years. We are just collateral damage, not even
counted.
293. Does anybody wish to ask anything on that?
294. CHAIR: No, carry on reading through that bit as well otherwise we are going to
be in the afternoon. You are going quite slowly.
295. MS FLETCHER: Slide 13, please. What I show on the next few slides is just a
layering of everything that is going on. You have seen the trenching. I have now placed
on the construction compounds with the length that they will be used. The main one
will be there for 18 years and the other one, Royal Mail, is a later compound and will be
there for 11 years. In the lower corner you can see that I have superimposed that
compound on an aerial shot only to show Gilfoot and you see a small roundabout there.
On that roundabout area there were six emergency vehicles during this last fire and we
are concerned that appropriate plans are in place for emergencies. You will also see the
red dotted lines. Those are public rights of way that are related to the square that we
talked about earlier. Those need to be maintained as public rights of way. They go right
through that compound.
296. The next slide, please. Now, you add to this traffic, and granted all of these aren’t
![Page 49: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/49.jpg)
49
used at all times but we are absolutely surrounded by HGV ramps. Then we have
another mysterious road which is circled in red which is off Hampstead Road to the
north side of the compound, which seems to me very difficult if Hampstead Road
Bridge is going to be three metres high at that point down into it. It’s a very short area.
We’re not sure what kind of traffic that means or what that road is. It just has appeared
on all the maps.
297. The next slide, please. On this slide I have layered even more. If you look at the
dates of demolition, the pinkish colour are demolition; the brown is excavation and the
blue is a barrette wall. Now, the barrette wall is interesting because we were not told
that there would be a barrette wall, despite all of the engagement meetings that we have
gone to. We found it out because somebody pointed it out to us on a map saying, ‘Did
you know there’ll be a barrette wall?’ We found out only a few days ago exactly where
it was going to be in the materials that they sent us on 3 December. We had never
received a map of that before. It was maybe a bit earlier, but it has been very recently
and Fran actually had to do an FOI to know what is a barrette wall. It’s going to be very
noisy and we really would have thought that that is something that in the engagement
process we would have been told about.
298. Something else to note is that these dates are start dates and I know that they keep
saying, ‘We hope that the construction will be less’, etc., but the start dates of these
projects vary from 2017 to 2022. So, for five years we are getting consecutive projects
right in the vicinity of the estate starting with associated noise, dust and everything else
that goes with it.
299. The next slide, please. We were told that the AP3 would be easier on the
community. In our case it is not. In the original hybrid Bill the number of households
on Ampthill Square who will have to experience noise levels higher than noise
insulation triggers was 210. In AP3 it is 310. I don’t have the statistics in front of me
but it is a very large proportion of 366 households. It is basically everything but
Holmrook, which is that mixed use building on the corner. In addition, the compounds
are going to be there longer. The big thing that is in the corner is now seven years
longer than it was before.
300. The next slide, please. This is taken from the phasing maps that came in AP3 and
![Page 50: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/50.jpg)
50
the Hybrid Bill. I have basically added them all up and mashed them together so that
you just get the total of a quarter’s worth. They are not consecutive but it is the total
number of quarters. The first three are Ampthill specific with utilities. Actually, in
other parts of the documentation the utilities go on for quite a bit longer and they may
come back and do even more when they’ve removed them, but in only one instance,
which is the Mornington Street Bridge, which affects us indirectly because of people
having to go up and walk in that direction, everything takes longer.
301. The next slide, please. This slide is a comparison of the various Hampstead Road
Bridge proposals over time. The first one shows the existing bridge with 18 platforms
and you can see, relatively speaking it is 52 metres long and is at ground level. The
middle bridge is the Hybrid Bill bridge which was longer and higher but this final bridge
is much higher, 4.8 metres over the existing bridge for what, an additional four
platforms?
302. MS HERON: An additional four platforms. One could say it’s a bridge too far,
really.
303. MS FLETCHER: The next slide are the cross-sections. Again, we just got these a
few days ago showing Gilfoot with the bridge next to it and stairs and a ramp to get up
to it, which is not exactly convenient for children, the elderly and people with toddlers
in tow.
304. MS HERON: We don’t think it is satisfactory anyway but if that was the best that
could be achieved, it would probably need two ramps, stairs, because there are currently
two gates from Hampstead Road into Ampthill. One is the fenced area for the tower
blocks, which we obviously want to keep secure, and the other one is the access to the
rights of way through the estate.
305. MS FLETCHER: And the rights of way is basically at that other point. Even if
that bridge is lowered by a metre, it is still a significant wall. Whereas before we walked
out of the estate on to a ground level, now you have to climb up to something in order to
get on to the bridge.
306. I am going to skip the next slide and instead I would like to bring up 11271 and
talk a little about open space. That is P11271-3. You have seen this before, I know, but
![Page 51: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/51.jpg)
51
I want to say that as residents we don’t consider the forecourt of a station or ramp to be
open space for us. This is not where you go to let your children play. It is open space
for passengers. The green is what we consider to be open space for us.
307. The next slide, please. 11271-4. If you take out the blue in that chart and granting
the other ones are a stand, you come up with a net loss of 2000 metres squared of usable
open space for children to play in or for people, for residents, to use, not passengers.
308. The next slide, 11271-8. The open space here which is counted in their added
open space, is a bus stand. I don’t know how many people would want their children to
go play in a bus stand. This one, although some of it I am sure is fine – this is the other
track – the bottom part of it is a taxi rank so some of the metres squared that are added
into the additional open space again is open space for passengers. It is not open space
for the residents. So, we are looking in the immediate area at a net loss of open space.
309. Back to my slide 22, please; that is 1740-22. So, what is the mitigation that
involves Ampthill Square? They say that they intend to improve existing public open
space as a mitigation against taking St James’s Garden. I find that a bit odd since this is
already open space to begin with. It’s not creating anything.
310. The next slide, please. The area hatched in red is in this realm behind security
fencing which is what we want to maintain so that we don’t go back to the bad old days
of Ampthill Square as a war zone. So, really is that going to help? We don’t want that
to be made into public ground. The open space that we do have was all re-landscaped in
2010. It includes a new playground. There is a picture of it with lovely trees. I am
puzzled as to how new landscaping is going to make that mitigation when this already
exists. It seems to me that returning it to the way it was is a minimum criterion and any
landscaping is personal taste. So, I am puzzled by that as a mitigation.
311. MS HERON: If I could just bring up map P124962, as you can see it is not easy
especially for people who do not have very good sight, to pick out the different
colourings but basically it is, I believe, the original re-hatched. It is better for seeing it
on the screen, actually. Is the green hatched the AP3 one? I can’t see.
312. MS FLETCHER: No, the green one is the original one.
![Page 52: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/52.jpg)
52
313. MS HERON: Okay, so I need to talk later about the grey one. If you come to the
bottom here, I am pretty certain that that does not match up with the map that we
showed you initially, and the pink. It has actually spread southwards over the road and
also, by the look of it, maybe into the Royal Mail. But it is certainly bigger than the
land we have shown initially that was going to be safeguarded. The Full Monty of the
land that they now wish to claim is the whole of Ampthill Square. They are saying that
this is because of utility works. They have said also that they want to improve the space
at Ampthill. You do not have to safeguard land to improve it. It is as simple as that.
There is also a question mark over whether, at the end of everything, the land will be
returned. This is absolutely horrifying. I think that’s probably it.
314. MS FLETCHER: The next of our slides are asks. Could we go back, please, one
side?
315. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I don’t think you need to read them because as long
as they’re available to Mr Mould, we can read them, he will read them and he can
respond to those he can.
316. MS FLETCHER: Yes, thank you.
317. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Okay. Do you mind if I put the next one up? Shall I
respond then?
318. MS FLETCHER: Yes, please.
319. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I won’t respond to your general asks, not because I seek
to belittle their importance to you but I have done it before. So, on your specific points,
the position in relation to emergency services access is really very straightforward.
These are residential premises. Those which are most directly affected by the works, in
particular Gilfoot, is a tower block. The project has no choice. The project in doing its
works has to maintain appropriate emergency access to Gilfoot. If it doesn’t do that
then it would have to provide temporary rehousing to the residents of Gilfoot for as long
as that situation obtains. The project does not wish to be in a position to have to provide
temporary rehousing to the residents of Gilfoot and therefore the project will maintain
appropriate emergency access to that property and to other properties on the estate and it
will work with the emergency services and engage with the Ampthill Estate community
![Page 53: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/53.jpg)
53
in order to ensure that that is achieved.
320. As regards alternative options for temporary utility diversion, I explained briefly
in opening that careful consideration has been given in particular to whether it would be
possible to maintain those services that are currently routed along Hampstead Road
Bridge and along the existing gantry to maintain those during the works without the
need to take a temporary route through the Ampthill Estate and the project is clear that it
is not feasible to do other than to route through the estate. In particular, it is not feasible
to maintain those services through the Hampstead Road Bridge itself whilst it is being
demolished and rebuilt.
321. As to the safeguarded areas, it is important to understand that lands which are
principally required to carry out utilities works are not generally safeguarded because
there is no need to acquire those lands on a permanent basis. So, in this case that leads
to the following point. I can guarantee that the project will not permanently acquire
lands within the estate which are required only for utilities works. Once the utilities
works have been undertaken and the land restored, then we will be off and those lands
will be back in the ownership, I suspect, of Camden as the freeholder of the estate, but
insofar as any lands affected which are owned by leaseholders, then those lands will
return to their owners.
322. Insofar as habitability and relocation triggers, the Environmental Statement for
AP3 identifies the three blocks on the Ampthill Estate and the flats within them and
some other flats within the maisonettes as being likely to experience construction noise
for a duration that will qualify for sound insulation and so that point is reinforced by the
assurance that we have given to Camden under Part 10 of the 30 November letter, in
particular paragraphs 10.1 and 10.5. Paragraph 10.5, which I showed the Committee
yesterday, commits to a survey of representative properties particularly focusing on the
need for noise insulation and for ventilation and other works to enable habitability to be
maintained. Amongst those areas which were subject to that further work are properties
within the Ampthill Estate bounded by either Eversholt Street to the north of Calgar,
Lidlington Place and Hampstead Road, so that embraces the area with which I think the
petitioners are particularly concerned.
323. Insofar as construction compound size is concerned, we have given a further
![Page 54: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/54.jpg)
54
commitment to Camden that we will review the effective management of construction
sites. That is page 31 of 30 November letter. In particular that commits us to seeking to
make efficiencies. These are not the very words but the underlying substance of that
assurance includes commitment to continue to seek to make efficiencies in the use of
compounds as we develop the detailed construction arrangements for the project.
324. In terms of security, I understand very much the concerns of residents of the estate
about maintaining the security system that has been in place in recent years. The
promoter and the nominated undertaker and his contractors will have to take all
reasonably practical measures that they can to make sure that that security system is
maintained in operation whilst the works are underway. That is a matter for detailed
consideration but clearly the objective has to be to maintain security on the estate whilst
the project is there doing the utilities work that I have mentioned and any other works
that are required.
325. I don’t say any more about the community fund. That is a point that was touched
on, again, earlier this morning. The project has a commitment under the Code of
Construction Practice to seek to minimise tree loss or impact on trees during
construction. That’s an approach which is conventional these days for any significant
development scheme. It’s a matter of policy. Developers are always required to take
all reasonable steps that they can to avoid loss or damage to trees, and that applies as
much to the promotion of this scheme as it does to others. We will particularly, as
we’re sited on it, particularly have a look at the trees that are of value to the community
and the estate to take all reasonably practical measures to try and avoid the loss of those
trees. I can’t guarantee it, but that’s just something which, again, is very much within
the sight of the detailed preparation for these works.
326. Insofar as open space is concerned, we’ve given commitments to Camden about
open space. I’ve referred to those earlier and I’m not going to refer to them again.
They’re in the 30 November letter. But what I can say is that the open space that is
within the estate boundaries, that once the construction of the project has been
completed and the works on the estate have been completed, that open space will be
restored as open space, so the current position will be restored. I think what is intended
is that that open space – where there are opportunities to, perhaps, improve the quality
of provisional facilities on that, that it would be a good idea to take advantage of those
![Page 55: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/55.jpg)
55
opportunities – and I would have thought that’s something that should be done through
engagement, not only with the council, but also through engagement with the residents
association, because they’re the users of that open space and so it would make sense to
speak to them as well.
327. So there’s room here for a good deal of these issues to be attended to through the
detailed construction process and the development of the detailed construction
arrangements.
328. Coming back to the question of engagement, I think we’ve found that, perhaps
understandably, representatives of residents of the estate have been nervous about
meeting us on a sort of bilateral or a private basis.
329. We have – well, I’m told we have. But anyway, I don’t want to go back over the
past, but what I do want to say is this: the best way of getting on and getting these
things resolved in a way that gives the community on the estate, I hope, confidence in
the arrangements going forward is if we do sit down together and talk these things
through with the residents association, because we want to understand their concerns
and we want to take those into account in the detail planning. So I think if moving
forward we can work on that basis, that would be a very sensible thing to do.
330. CHAIR: Brief, final comments?
331. MS FLETCHER: I would like to pull up A174010, please. I’m only doing this to
show why we get concerned. This was in our response pack for Ampthill Square,
which says, ‘Principally, the additional lands included was to enable HS2 to undertake
open space enhancement work.’ That’s why we were concerned when we were there.
In the same document it says, ‘These areas will likely be redesigned.’ You know,
perhaps something has superseded this, but this is the information we were given and
this is why we got concerned.
332. MR MOULD QC (DfT): All I can say is, I’m not aware of any reason why they
shouldn’t be returned to – I think it would be to Camden as the freeholder of the estate.
333. MS FLETCHER: Of course it would be.
334. MR MOULD QC (DfT): But I’m not aware of any reason why they shouldn’t be
![Page 56: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/56.jpg)
56
returned. I think I understand why people are concerned about these reservations that
are put on these documents. They’re put on because there’s a, sort of, never say never
approach to, sometimes, these things. There has to be a sensible reservation. But, as I
say, I haven’t been told there’s any reason why they shouldn’t be. I think you can
proceed confidently at the moment on the basis that they will be returned, and if there is
any reason why they shouldn’t be, you’ll be told.
335. CHAIR: Okay.
336. MS HERON: I’d just like to make the comment that in this HS2 game, the
promoter has all the trumps, all the deuces, and he hides the rest of the pack, and he has
his ‘get out of gaol card’ free wherever reasonably practicable, where the promoter is
judge, jury and executioner. We have nothing.
337. CHAIR: Thank you very much for those comments. We now move on to – let’s
see if William Harvey, 920 – is William Harvey present?
338. MS HERON: There are some other residents that we have some statements from.
339. CHAIR: Okay. We’ll do those quickly as possible, please.
340. MS HERON: Yes. The 915, David and Nicola they had one slide, please. That’s
A1738. Slide number 2, please. He has given me a brief statement to read, which I’ll
do. He writes – this is David Lincoln – ‘I am a 71 year old pensioner who has lived on
Ampthill Square Estate along with my wife and children for 44 happy years till I hit
with a bomb about the works they are intending to do, putting extra traffic on Euston
Station right next to the block I live in, which is indicated on the slide with the yellow
dot. We have been informed that we will enjoy many years of noise, dust, pollution
which really concerns me as my daughter has asthma, having difficulty to breath with
the pollution levels as they are, and I am elderly myself. With the extra dust, noise,
pollution, does this mean we will have to live with our windows shut and feel trapped
on our own home until work, covering many years, is complete?
341. ‘At the moment I can come out of my block of flats and easily commute to and
from work, when work starts at Euston and surrounding areas with extra traffic, not to
mention lorries who knows how long my journey will be, and it will be a nightmare.’
![Page 57: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/57.jpg)
57
The picture that you see on the right is a view from his balcony, and from the left is
how close the will be to the demolition of the Royal Mail.
342. He further says, ‘Once I often say to people, I would retire to this lovely estate
along with my daughter, but when the work starts, lovely it will not be. It will be a
nightmare.’ His ask was rehousing when it’s really bad, especially in light of his
daughter’s asthma and other medical conditions. Thank you.
343. I’d like to say a few words on behalf of Jacquelin Haggett. Jacqui lives in
Holmrook, which is the block on the north-east corner of the estate. They have a degree
of traffic problems from the congestion, and Euston Road is often impassable because
of somebody badly parked or something like this. She’s concerned about the addition
of traffic. She has multiple health problems. She’s lived on the estate all her life.
She’s 44 years of age. She has two daughters. One also suffers from asthma. Her
eldest daughter, when the work starts, is just about to go, enter her final year of a BA
degree, and her younger daughter will be doing A-levels. She’s worried about them
having lack of sleep.
344. But also, Holmrook block itself has been left of counting for unknown reason.
It’s never been referred to, ever. Their frontage is a balcony onto Eversholt Street, but
those rooms at the front of the flats are kitchen, bathroom and toilet. The bedrooms on
the living accommodation is on the other side of the block, so it’s facing inwards to the
estate. So they, too, will suffer a lot of the same impacts as the remainder of the estate.
So that’s that one. That’s Jackie.
345. I’ve also been asked to say a few words on behalf of Paul Tomlinson, who is
behind me. Paul lives on Ampthill – the same block as I did, as a matter of fact – and
he is a local counsellor. As such he’s a governor of a local school. The school were
going to send in a presentation but the headmistress, as headmistresses do, was called
away at the last minute. So it arrived at 10 to 5.00 and we were unable to do it. So I
understand I can leave it for you to have a look, but it’s a Catholic infants school on
Phoenix Road, and that is a road that I think will be quite heavily impacted. It was
established in 1852. Still going strong. We’re asking that you please help that this
continue.
346. So the school’s concerns are: fumes directly into the school playground; parents
![Page 58: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/58.jpg)
58
gather out of the school morning and afternoon every day to collect and drop off; will it
be safe – noise; fumes; speed of traffic, etc; both parents and pupils meet together daily
for an additional ten minutes in the playground for morning prayers and message
sharing, and will they still be able to hear the speaker; adverse effects on young lungs,
is another concern; 210 pupils in school; 180 pupils on this site; 30 travelling to nursery
each week; children are only four to seven years old and so lungs are still developing;
pollution and fumes will have an adverse effect on their growth; some also already have
medical needs, such as asthma; their health will deteriorate and their attendance
decrease, which will in turn have a negative impact on their learning; adverse effects on
staff supervising children in the playground, many of whom have asthma and bronchial
weaknesses, which we saw from a previous presentation that there were high levels of
respiratory disease in the area.
347. Staff supervise the playgrounds throughout the day and additional fumes and
noise will have an adverse effect on their health and attendance at work. So the
school’s concerns also about noise levels of addition of larger vehicles, more difficult to
teach inside and outside as a teacher cannot be heard as additional traffic passes by the
outer perimeter of the school railings outside. Speed of additional vehicles. Staff,
parents and pupils walking along the pavement or crossing. Risk to the very young.
The safety of pupils and parents crossing the road. Families having difficulty collecting
siblings from St Aloysius Nursery and Junior School through different locations which
all require crossing Phoenix Road.
348. The majority of families cross Phoenix Road every day. Additional traffic will
increase the safety risk. Families not able to travel to school due to blocked access in
Euston Somers Town. Families live on the other side of Euston, which is something
that we talked about. They will find travelling to the school difficult. Also, as transport
links are out, families will find it more difficult to get to school. It will take longer,
wherever they are travelling from. Many travel by bus and get off on Eversholt Street.
349. Difficulty in access for our disabled pupils. As the road use changes, access to
outside school become more difficult for our disabled pupils. Nursery pupils and
nursery staff must travel between school and the nursery regularly, daily for all nursery
staff. All previously mentioned issues will have an impact on them.
![Page 59: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/59.jpg)
59
350. Pupil numbers will decrease. With all the works happening around them, parents
will not be incentivised to apply for a school which is difficult to access, and this is
important. With additional health and noise issues, this will be to the detriment of the
school and will affect its sustainability. Once again, this will help us to protect our
school. Our children, they are our future. Thank you.
351. CHAIR: Is that all evidence you’re giving; all the other petitioners you’ve now
covered? Thank you very much, both of you. Right. 920, William Harvey. I don’t
think he’s here, either, which is why I’m calling him. 920, William Harvey. No. 932,
William and Cassandra Adjei. Not here. 922, Fabijan Matosevic. 930, Jolil and Nadia
Shah. Not here. Right. We now move to 921, Maria O’Shea and others.
Maria O’Shea
352. MS O’SHEA: My name is Maria O’Shea. Firstly, I would just like to say that I
am in complete agreement with the petition from the Ampthill Square Tenants
Association and agree with all of the priority asks, especially comprehensive
redevelopment of Euston and habitability criteria and location triggers agreed for worse
affected tenants.
I’m have been attendant in Dalehead, one of the infamous tower blocks, on the
Hampton Square Estate for 34 years. I have a lovely home with my partner and with a
view of spending our retirement in a very pleasant, familiar environment. My mother
lives on the Regents Park Estate five minutes from me. We can see one another from
our respective balconies. Slide 1, taken from my balcony, highlights the close
proximity to my mother’s home. She’s now 86 and needs a lot of support from me as
she gets more frail. I visit between two and three times a day, taking her meals, doing
shopping, etc.
353. Slide 2 shows the route I take to my mother’s home. Then disaster strikes, and a
big, nasty fat cat comes thundering through, ready to destroy everything in front of it,
regardless. Not for one, not for two, but for at least 18 years. So we’re all going to hell
and back.
354. Slide 3 shows the demolition of Hampstead Road Bridge, Granby Terrace Bridge,
two large blocks of flats, Ainsdale and Eskdale, making my route impassable. My
![Page 60: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/60.jpg)
60
mother’s on the other side of the divide, more blocks nearer to her being demolished.
She is going to be virtually entrapped. Her bus stops have been moved. She will be
more in need of me than ever. I don’t fathom how I can get to her quickly as I do at the
moment, and certainly it won’t be a five-minute walk. Everything I do for my mother is
to enable her to remain in her own home.
355. My own health is a problem. I’m registered disabled with two chronic conditions
and don’t have a clue how I will manage walkways as I struggle with steps now. My
partner has just been told he needs to have both hips replaced, so living on a building
site is not what he needs.
356. My proximity to all of the works could not be closer. Slide 4 shows how near we
are to the demolition of bridges, blocks of flats, and excavations.
357. I read in one recent report that Dalehead, the block I live in, is going to be one of
the worst regarding noise. I have been unable to open windows for 18 years because of
pollution.
358. The fear of all vermin is terrifying. Once those rats are disturbed, they won’t be
sitting round listening to good housekeeping rules.
359. The grounds the estate is built on is being turned into a building compound where
one side of Dalehead has trenches three metres by three metres across the estate, and a
massive bridge being built along the other side of Dalehead is going to make it very
difficult to access our homes.
360. This whole project is not only going to affect my life adversely, it is going to ruin
it. The idea that I have to spend the rest of my life living in this hell hole beggars
belief. So much for the idea an Englishman’s home is his castle.
361. I ask of HS2, at best I wish it would disappear, or in my case, rehouse my family
for the duration of the demolition and bridge building, with a guaranteed choice of
coming back to my home should I so wish, that is, if I’m still alive, because it’s
blatantly obvious, there really are no meaningful mitigations that would make any
acceptable improvement to anyone’s life on Ampthill.
362. That’s the end of my statement. My neighbour has come out without her glasses
![Page 61: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/61.jpg)
61
and would like me to read hers. It’s quite short.
363. I’m speaking for my neighbour, Brenda Campbell, who is also a tenant at
number 40 Dalehead on the Ampthill Square. She also is in agreement with the
Ampthill Square petition and its asks. Dalehead has been her home for 16 years and
she’s always been very happy living there. She’s a single parent and has one child, a
son, who is 23 but has special needs and is a mental age of 6 to 7 years. Her son is
unable to leave home much as he has an extreme weight problem. He’s ultrasensitive to
noise and gets extremely distressed, even when it thunders. She also had to take care of
her brother who’s in his early 40s and is on the autistic spectrum. He also has a mental
age of a young child.
364. Her own health is a problem. She’s blind in one eye and suffers from hardening
of the arteries causing severe pain to her legs, limiting her ability to walk far. The idea
of not being able to open doors and windows for 18 years due to dust and air pollution
leaves her fearful and will affect the quality of her life. As you can see, her life’s pretty
hard enough, without the massive misery HS2 will inflict. The only ask she can make
is to have a priority for somewhere decent to go if it becomes unmanageable for her
son, and extra concerns given over ongoing noises. Thank you.
365. MS ALI: Good afternoon. My name is Zamzam Ali and I live at number
38 Dalehead on the Ampthill Square Estate. First, I would like to say that I agree with
the points and asks in the Ampthill Square Tenants Association.
366. I have been living in Ampthill Square Estate for 11 years. I moved to this place
when my son was only a few months old, and now I have three children. My children
have always been part of this lovely community and they absolutely love to play in the
Ampthill Square Park. My son, being 11 years old, loves to play in the basketball and
football court in the summer. I feel my children are safe when they are riding their
bikes and scooters in the estate. I cannot fathom what is about to happen to my
community and our lives will certainly change due to the fact that it will not be the
same for the next 18 years.
367. My four year old son suffers from asthma and is allergic to dust. I change his
bedsheets every two to three days, vacuum and mop with the steamer, and use a
humidifier every night. It scares me to the core when I think about how my son will
![Page 62: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/62.jpg)
62
cope and survive without opening my windows for 18 years because of the excessive
dust and pollution. I sense that my children’s wellbeing has not been considered.
368. I fear for my children’s education and health, because of the noise pollution at
night, that they will suffer. A loud noise that will have an unpleasant side effects and
discomfort on their ears. As I hear that Dalehead will suffer the most noise pollution, I
wonder how my children will concentrate in school and their education. I have even
considered a mutual exchange, but then I realised, nobody in their right minds would
want to move to an area where they would not be able to open their windows for
18 years.
369. I would like to ask if I can be relocated to a similar and lovely property as mine.
Also, I would like to be moved to an area that is not far from my children’s school and
my lovely neighbours; and with a guaranteed option of returning to my home.
370. CHAIR: Thank you very much. I’m not sure the promoter can add very much
more given you’ve talked comprehensively. But thank you very much for giving your
views which we’ll reflect on. We understand the impact on the estate. Your –
371. MS O’SHEA: Sorry, we have just one more
372. MS WARREN: My name is Jane Warren. I live on the fifth floor of Dalehead
directly overlooking the railway. I agree with the points raised in the Tenants and
Residents Association of Ampthill Square petition and support their asks.
373. The works will cause disruption to people living on our estate for years. Dust,
noise, and accessibility problems will cause distress to us all.
374. Hampstead Road is a main artery into Central London and access to the UCH.
Loss of this could even endanger lives in an emergency.
375. On a person level I have concerns with regard to many things, some of which are
the noise, especially if this is on a 24-hour basis.
376. We live on the fifth floor. My husband has recently returned to work after a
year’s absence, and his new job will involve shift work. Recent works, nothing on a
scale of HS2, have been disruptive and can be heard clearly. I can only imagine what it
![Page 63: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/63.jpg)
63
would be like once the project begins.
377. The triple-glazing proposed will mean that we will live in a closed, stuffy
environment and unable to clean the outside. Having experience works recently
undertaken in our area, vermin is a problem that comes hand in hand with major
projects. They’ve previously reached our floor when disturbed.
378. We will not be able to relocate for personal and financial reasons. If we did move
out of the area this would result in my son being made homeless as he has to remain in
central London for his job and cannot afford rent in Camden. As a single working male
he’s very low down on the list for any rehousing.
379. The security of the estate will be impacted by the works and we’ll be more
vulnerable during the period and we may have intermittent loss of utilities during the
drilling.
380. At present, I’m an extra key holder for my work at a local nursery and can be
there in minutes if needed in an emergency. Losing Granby Terrace as access will
affect this.
381. There are almost too many points to put into words. In rural areas digging has
been done underground to minimise disruption. An urban setting deserves equal
consideration.
382. I’d like you just to consider the following points: every effort be made to
minimise disruption and noise levels, including time restrictions; tenants and
leaseholders are not forced to move and no one is made homeless or at a financial loss
as a direct result of the work; the soundproofing does not damage our flats and
maintained property; and vermin control is in place. If possible, Hampstead Road to be
left as a main access point to the UCH and Central London.
383. CHAIR: Thank you very much, ladies. Thank you for your contributions. We’ll
reflect on that and the other contributions from the estate. Thank you very much. All
right. We’re now Linda Eager, 917. Welcome.
![Page 64: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/64.jpg)
64
Linda Eager
384. MS EAGER: Firstly, I’d like to say that I obviously generally – I’m very worried
regarding the impact the construction works will have upon the Euston Station area for
some 18 years, such as the disruption, noise, air pollution, etc. I generally agree with
all the points raised by previous petitioners, and particularly the Ampthill Square TRA.
385. I’m here to present my own personal case. This is regarding my property, garden,
and quality of life. Just as a little bit of background, my grandparents were from the
Euston Area, Drummond Street, and so were my parents. This area has been my
family’s home for three generations. It means a great deal to me, and is now my home.
386. If I could have slide 1. The green star basically shows my property, and the
yellow, my garden. Regarding my property, my parents moved into Ampthill Square
when it was first built and into property 16 Calgarth. They exercised a right to buy a
16 Calgarth and the lease includes the property and garden. My parents bought the flat
in order to secure their future and my future. I’ve lived in flat 16 Calgarth for the
majority of my life. I’ve spent a lot of time, energy, and money to make my flat my
home, and a place that makes me happy to live in.
387. I’m very worried about the quality of my life for the next 18 years, as it’s foreseen
that the construction works will impact upon Ampthill Square and Euston Station area
for that amount of time.
388. I’ve already experienced disruption and costs only seven to eight years ago with
the regeneration of Ampthill Square. Really – I mean, that will be small fry in
comparison to the disruption to the works on Euston Station, and that was bad enough.
I’m concerned what will happen if in the next 18 years I would like to move. My
property is my asset. I’m very worried how the works will affect my ability to sell my
property and its market value if I wish to move or wish to do anything else with the
property. It seems that it’s only compensation for if you need to move and not want to
move.
389. I’m also very close to my family, being my brother, sister-in-law, two nephews
and nephews two young children. We’ve always lived very near to each other and I’ve
always spent a lot of time with them. Recently my brother and sister-in-law moved to
![Page 65: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/65.jpg)
65
Borehamwood. My nephew and his partner and two young children are still renting in
the area, for which I’m very happy, as I still continue to see them a lot. However, I
think over the next couple of years, my nephew and his young family will moved to
Borehamewood as well. This will be especially true if the works go ahead, as they will
move to avoid the disruption and pollution, especially as my nephew suffers from
asthma and his son also has chest problems as he’s born two months premature. It’s a
great worry to me that if they do move to Borehamwood as well, and I want to move to
be near to them, that I will not be able to sell my flat because of the construction works
going on and/or I will not be able to get the market value that it’s worth at the moment.
390. Slide 2, please. I have a garden, and I consider it very precious to have a garden
in Central London. My garden is also part of my property and included in my lease.
Utility trenches are planned to run through Ampthill Square while the works are being
carried out. On the plans drawn up, one of these trenches is shown running through my
garden and very close to my flat. Actually, if you could go back to slide 1. The blue
line is showing the trench at the moment running through my garden, very close to my
flat. This seems it will also mean knocking down my garden wall and shed. If the wall
is knocked down or partly knocked down then anybody will have access to my garden
and my property in it. This, I feel, will compromise my security.
391. Again, I’ve spent a lot of time, energy and money, making my garden how it is. I
do not want a trench dug in the middle of it, ruining what I have done. This will also
mean a lot of disruption and mess, and will be very close to my home.
392. My nephew, his partner and two young children are at the moment renting in a
council studio flat in the area. They’re extremely cramped, as you can imagine. It’s
very stressful for them, and the children do not have any room to play. So my nephew
has a key to my flat and they can bring the children to my garden to give them some
room to play in. This is also very enjoyable and helps them a lot. I’m also concerned
that this will no longer be possible with a trench being dug for my garden, and also it
may no longer be safe or secure for the children.
393. My garden, as I mentioned, is part of my lease. So can a trench, then, just be dug
through the middle of it?
394. So basically my asks are, if the works go ahead as planned, a compensation offer
![Page 66: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/66.jpg)
66
is improved so that I have the freedom to be able to sell my property when I want to,
and if my garden is dug up, that it is restored back to its original position and that the
wall is rebuilt and compensation for the disruption. That’s it. Thank you.
395. CHAIR: The trench and the garden being made good, and the wall also made
good.
396. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes. But before that, this is one of those existing
utilities, do you remember I mentioned earlier. This is a UK power network’s cable or
cables. As I said, we’re by no means clear that we actually need to do any works within
the petitioner’s garden in any event. It may be possible just to leave these cables in situ,
or it may be possible to remove them without needing to go directly into her garden.
We may be able to undertake it other than going into her garden.
397. What I would propose to do is, I think we will be much clearer on that as the
delivery programme, it progresses during the course of the coming months. What I
would like to do is to keep her closely informed of the progress of that, of the
development of works, and so that we can, as soon as we reasonably can, we can get to
a final decision, and we can then let her know and give her comfort on that.
398. But as things stand at the moment, if we assume that we do need to go in and do
some works to remove these existing cables, then the petitioner will be entitled to land
compensation for the disturbance and injury that she may suffer as the leaseholder from
the execution of those works. I’m sure that that alone, just looking at the photographs,
if it’s the case of the effect of works of that kind alone, I’m sure she would rather – it’s
up to her – but I would have thought she may want to be able to say, ‘Well, I’d rather
put up with those works for the duration of them and then have my garden back,’ which
obviously would be restored by us to its current state. But once the act is passed, it will
be open to her to consider whether she wants to ask the secretary of state to take the
property as a whole, and that would then be considered by the secretary of state.
399. CHAIR: Having the flat and the garden?
400. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes.
401. CHAIR: Right. Thank you very much indeed. We now move on to AP3: 82,
![Page 67: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/67.jpg)
67
Agueda Furtado. I hope I pronounced it right. Welcome. Good afternoon.
Agueda Furtado
402. MS FURTADO: Yes, good afternoon. My name is Agueda Furtado. I know you
almost came to lunch and I think our patience is running low. I understand that. But
the reason I decided to do my petition is because of my children, because I had
originally signed a group petition with Ampthill Estate tenants, but on Thursday, the
last day before the petition, I couldn’t sleep, so I thought – I woke up at midnight and I
thought, ‘You know what? My children need to have a voice. I’m their voice.’ That’s
the reason – sorry, I’m getting really nervous, but I’ll get there – that’s the reason I
thought I needed to do the petition. So because we live at Gilfoot, we are one of the
families that are within closest proximity with Euston. I feel that we’ve been ignored or
we’ve not been listened – or they feel that because there’s too many people in Gilfoot, it
might be easier to just put a glass around us and then do all the work.
403. We can see exhibition 7, this is a picture from my house. It shows the distance
from my flat, from my building to the station. It shows the proximity, how close we
are. I know we had lots of paperwork, letters, information, saying to people how close
we are, but when you look from our window and you feel the vibration of the train and
you feel – you hear the announcement from the station, that is when you know that you
live by the station, and you know that your children can’t do things or they’ve been
affected by them, and they need to be listened to and they need to take into
consideration.
404. I think – I feel that HS2 needs to identify our children’s welfare as a priority. Not
just as a priority, but as a key priority. They need to understand the risks and the facts,
because I know we have all this information that keeps coming to our letter box, but it’s
the fact that we’re living in those flats. No one came inside our flats to see and feel
how it feels to live there, because I know there’s negotiations with Camden, there’s
negotiations with everyone else. But when you come inside the flats and you feel,
that’s when you realise that all the papers, it don’t make a difference if you have to live
through it.
405. If we can see exhibition 10, please. I’ll shake through it, but I’ll get to – I’m
really sorry. We received this through the post, and if you see, I can – my daughter
![Page 68: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/68.jpg)
68
helped me highlight all the yellow bits it says probably where there will be work or be
something related to HS2. You see there’s in orange right in the middle of all that.
What we feel is – we understand – we love – we have a travel card, a railroad card, and
we love train stations. Don’t take us wrong, because we don’t want HS2 to do some of
the things; because we travel, and that has enabled us to go north, south, everywhere in
the country. And we know there’s a need for development, we understand that. But it’s
when that development has impact on the welfare of our children that we need to look
into it and we need to consider, because the impact will be on their home, on their
routine, on their independence, on their education.
406. Also, if improvements go ahead in Ampthill Station, Hampstead Road, our
children will be lost. They will be lost to construction work that is estimated to last ten
to 15 years or more. My youngest child is ten. I’m a foster carer to babies. I already
feel that my child is losing a childhood just for the fact that we live in the city because –
HS2 feels that they were born to noise, then they can live through noise. But if I have a
bright child and a really creative child, imagine if she didn’t have to put up with all the
noise, the vibration, and if she could – because we already hear these things from what
is happening at the present, because we live close to the station. So I feel that imagine
what my child could do even more if she could sleep properly at night, if she could be
treated fairly.
407. I have one of the videos. Because I feel that – I understand we need to do work,
but if you hear one of these video, that’s on a normal day, the video, inside our house.
Now, imagine when it’s a really windy day or – we already have double-glazing, and
this video – I don’t know if you can hear it. Put the volume up a bit.
408. Yes. That’s inside the house on a day that it’s not too bad. That’s why I’m
saying, my child’s brain is already – she goes through this on a daily basis, and the
reason we have the ventilations is because we live close to the station, we have to keep
our windows closed, and because we keep our windows closed we have the ventilation,
that we actually close it so that we don’t get even worse than that. And that’s on a
normal day. Now, imagine when it’s windy. We sometimes go away, and all the way
in Portugal, we can hear, inside our heads, the announcements and this noise. It’s
because for 16 years, from my side and for my daughter’s 10 years and my niece as
well, we’ve been living with this. So it’s still inside our brain, that even when we are
![Page 69: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/69.jpg)
69
on holiday, our brain doesn’t ever rest, because you sleep when you hear it and you
think you’re home. That’s not normal, because people normalise – that’s why I was
talking about the risk, because we normalise the risk and we make it something that is
normal, and then we think, ‘Okay, the children are used to it, so they can cope.’ But
that’s why I said my child is clever and bright, but imagine if she didn’t have to live
with this, if she got to have a normal life.
409. One of the reasons I also did this is because I found out – I went to one of the
meetings and I found out that, oh, people that live in the rural areas, they have a better
deal – we don’t even have a deal, but – they’ve been considered because they’re more
sensitive to noise, and I feel that my child has to live with noise in an area that is
already over-crowded, that is already noisy because we live by the station. I know it’s
no one’s fault. But to be penalised for it, that’s what I got upset about. That’s why feel
that it’s not right.
410. CHAIR: How are your cars going. All right?
411. MS FURTADO: Yeah. They’re doing okay, yeah. So I think HS2 could prevent
the impairment of my children’s health and development. They need to ensure that our
children continue to be healthy and they continue to grow well and safe, because in the
optimum lifestyle, it is when the work starts, they’re not going to be safe anymore.
412. So I think my children’s right to a good standard of living: their right to be
healthy, their right to be safe, their right to play and enjoy their childhood, will be taken
away, and that’s the reason for my petition. So the overall well-being cannot be
measured because this work will be taking their whole childhood, because my child is
only ten, without considering the babies, if it’s going to going for ten, 15 years, it’s the
whole childhood, and we feel that – I don’t think that’s right.
413. I think that HS2’s actions should be rooted in child development. But the reason
I’m saying this is because in Gilfoot there is about 200 children, and our children are
not being considered through all this. I know they’re thinking we’re going to put triple
glazing. We already have double glazing and you heard the noise. They’re going to be
putting ventilation gaps. We already had the noise and you can hear the ventilation.
They need to ensure equality, because they’re not being fair and just to children.
![Page 70: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/70.jpg)
70
414. We have another video, please. I feel the HS2 is failing our children and our
families in Gilfoot, because you can hear all about Camden, you can hear all about big
organisation, all about big places and people that have a big voice, a loud voice, but you
don’t hear anything and nothing about Gilfoot. That’s the noise inside our flat with
everything closed.
415. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Not noise. Wind noise.
416. MS FURTADO: The wind, yeah. The wind. But not on a bad day. That’s what
I’m saying. Imagine on a bad day. That’s in – can you see the black thing on the top?
We try putting Sellotape, we tried putting all different things –
417. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Is that because there’s a gap somewhere?
418. MS FURTADO: No, there’s no gaps. We have – the ventilation is closed but
you can still hear the noise.
419. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Sorry, but that’s a wind noise.
420. MS FURTADO: It’s the wind noise, but it’s going through, because we have to
have ventilation because we can’t open the window, so the wind, it travels in the flats,
and that’s why you can hear, because of that, and that’s why I was saying in terms of
heavily ventilation, yes, you put it as in a glass, but then inside the flat, we live in there,
and that’s where we can hear.
421. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: How long have you had that noise?
422. MS FURTADO: It’s always been there, because it’s the gaps, the ventilation
gaps, that causes the noise. It’s like pipe noise, when travelling.
423. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I’ve got a feeling your suffering more from that
than you ever liked to suffer from anything else that can happen except for a rocket
going off.
424. MS FURTADO: That’s the reason I’m saying the ventilations would make a
difference, because they’re saying, ‘Oh, we will put ventilations,’ and the ventilations
were put because of the railway station that’s there.
![Page 71: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/71.jpg)
71
425. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If HS2 give you ventilation, and if they give you
ventilation which is a substitution for ventilation that makes that racket, I think your
noise levels may go down. I’m not saying it’s going to be possible, but –
426. MS FURTADO: Which will be great. I hope there would be something they
could do for the vibration of the building because I couldn’t film that because it was,
you know, where the building vibrates, it vibrates, and unfortunately, that was
something I could do, and I did it because I woke up and then I thought, you know, I
needed to film that bit.
427. CHAIR: Okay. Thank you very much for giving a voice to your children and
coming to the committee today, and you did it very well. Thank you.
428. MS FURTADO: And I hope the children are taken into consideration.
429. CHAIR: Yes. Right. We now move on to 840, David and Barbara Turner. Do
you want to add anything to your statement, which we’ve read?
David and Barbara Turner
430. MR TURNER: Yes. We’re not going to repeat it, I promise you. Are we the
last, by the way?
431. CHAIR: No.
432. MR TURNER: Okay. Well, you’re going to have to wait a little bit longer for
lunch.
433. Good afternoon. Thank you for this time. You’ve read our summary and our
petition is a long one and a very broad one. It contains an awful lot of material and the
material is still current and still a major concern. But you’ve heard it all before. The
counsel for the petitioners is no doubt well practiced in rebutting all the points. So
there’s no point in going over that again. What I’d like to do is to spend ten minutes of
your time in return for your complete attention, just to paint the human picture, if you
like – this is moving beyond the petition – and what the issues in the petition mean to us
as two people.
![Page 72: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/72.jpg)
72
434. Barbara Turner, David Turner. Both aged 69 and approaching the sort of
feebleness that comes from our age. We’ve lived in our flat on Hampton Square Estate
for 43 years. We brought it 16 years ago. It’s probably the biggest investment we’ll
ever make in our lives, except, perhaps, for the family, which is probably a bigger
investment. We’ve lived there happily for 43 years. We’ve raised our family there, and
we were looking forward to remaining there throughout our retirement and probably
until death.
435. We’ve led modest but independent, and, I think, upright lives. What does our
retirement look like now? Enduring long, multiple bouts of 24-7 working, rebuilding
the two massive bridges from a compound, all on our doorstep, for 17 years. We’re in
the eye of the storm. Bouts of combined noise, fouled air, vibration, danger, and chaos.
A cumulative effect described even by the promoters as ‘extreme adverse affects’ day
and night. That’s our future. Actuarially at the age of 69, and this going on for at least
17 years, and, you know, for 17 years on a building project read 20, we’ll be dead
before it finishes. So, actuarially, this is the rest of our lives in this maelstrom.
436. What help are we offered? Well, recently, maybe, some noise insulation, if it’s
possible. Not much else. Precious little else. Even the consultation with the promoters
has been roundly criticised, so I’m not even sure we’ll even be able to put our voice to
them, or that they’ll be listening if we do.
437. We’ve got the misfortune of living in an urban area. The way the compensation
works out, there is this perverse and cynical idea that if you’re used to living in an
urban area, you’re used to noise and disturbance, so you can take some more. That’s
La-La Land. That’s Alice jumping through the mirror. It’s the other way round. It
could be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. And you’ve heard from the previous
petitioner the effect on her children and her and there’s more to come. But because we
have that, we’re not entitled to any more compensation. That’s cruel. That’s cruel and
perverse. Anyway, that’s what it is.
438. History’s repeating itself. In the 1840s when the railways came into London,
what happened was – and including the Euston to Birmingham railway – the rich,
landed gentry in the rural areas were well-compensated. The poor, around Somers
Town and in the urban areas, were rejected. History is beginning to repeat itself.
![Page 73: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/73.jpg)
73
439. We hate asking for help, because that’s not our nature. We regard ourselves as
independent people. But the magnitude of the torment in front of us, I think, demands
it, and this is what we ask for. We ask that our home be deemed as being in the
safeguarding area, which actually completely surrounds the block. We would like the
opportunity to reap some of the benefits – strange to call them ‘benefits’ – some of the
benefits that being in the safeguarding area would provide us. They’d certainly be
above and beyond the ‘benefits’ we’re going to get now.
440. Failing that, maybe what could happen is our age alone, being 69, looking
forward to 17 years of this and probably dead before the end of it, our age alone is
deemed to be sufficient to entitle us to opt for the need to move criteria of the
compensation should we wish. I think, you know, facing disturbance for the rest of
your life should indicate in itself a need to move. But we don’t get those benefits at the
moment.
441. If we decide we’re not going to move, and I suppose it’s possible because we’re
getting old and all the stress and torment associated with that, we think it only fair that
we be allowed some of the homeowner repayments scheme. So we should get a cash
value to at least allow us to buy respite during the difficult times and to move away and
to come back again. But I do take the point of a previous petitioner that money is not
the thing that cures this, but it’s better than nothing.
442. Finally, I think if we stay we deserve some sort of champion. Somebody who can
monitor the promoter, can report on the promoter’s performance through a wide field of
potential disturbances. To represent us when we need to, when we’re reaching
stalemate with the promoter and somebody else earlier on said, ‘They’ve got all the
cards.’ It is David and Goliath, but David needs his hand held sometimes, and we need
a champion to do that.
443. Finally, maybe to penalise the promoter when they go wrong. It’s all going to go
wrong somewhere because this is the largest capital project this country has ever
known. Because of that, we need special safeguards, because we, along with everybody
on the Ampthill Square Estate, are there in the middle of this. If you’re our age you
won’t survive it anyway.
444. Our only legacy for our children is our flat. We don’t have anything else. But
![Page 74: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/74.jpg)
74
that’s not a sob story. We have a nice flat, and we were looking forward to giving it to
them as a legacy. But the probability is they will assume the legacy halfway through
this maelstrom. So what sort of legacy is that? Even the cost of this project to us will
extend beyond our deaths to our family.
445. So without the financial ability to move, without any sort of humane mitigation or
compensation, the quiet enjoyment of the rest of our lives will, in effect, end, well, the
end of next year. That’s it. Job done. This, we regard, as an unconscionable
unfairness, and possibly even a burning injustice.
446. Thank you for your patience, attention, and interest.
447. CHAIR: Do you have anything to add to what you said about on the spur of the
moment? Okay. We understand your points. Thank you very much.
448. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: When’s the railway supposed to be in operation?
449. MR MOULD QC (DfT): 2026.
450. MR TURNER: 2026.
451. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: For a 69 year old, your average life expectancy is
15 years. 15 plus 2015 takes you to being able to go Birmingham.
452. MR TURNER: We’ve also heard that the disturbance period would be 17 years.
453. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Yes. That goes on for a year afterwards.
454. MR MOULD QC (DfT): We’re building the first phase by 2026, so that we can
start operating the trains from London to Birmingham and then beyond.
455. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: You have a better chance on going on the railway
than I have, but I plan to be on it with you.
456. CHAIR: There’s a challenge. Thank you very much indeed. Right, we now go
on to the last petition, 954, AP3: 102, John James and Louise Fletcher.
John and Louise Fletcher
![Page 75: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/75.jpg)
75
457. MR FLETCHER Good afternoon. Thank you very much for making time to
listen to our concerns. I’m going to try and make this as brief as possible, because I
understand that your committee believes that less is more. As I go through these slides,
if there are any points that you think have already been covered and adequately covered
previously, if you could let me know and we could just carry on.
458. Okay. First slide. Ampthill, a village next to Euston. I believe the select
committee has visited the Ampthill Square Estate, so you know the conditions under
which we live, which are very pleasant. It’s a very, very friendly community. It really
is like living in a village. Apart from a little bit of rail noise, you wouldn’t even know
you’re in the middle of London. Louise and I have lived there for five years, and life on
the estate and in Camden in general is a very exciting experience, although not too
exciting on the estate.
459. Okay. Next slide. First concern I have is regarding air quality. Obviously, we’d
like air quality to be continually monitored so that action can be taken immediately as
soon as it gets to an unacceptable level. We would like to have a baseline established
prior to any construction activity.
460. Dust. Were very concerned about the amount of dust that is going to be created
by the ongoing works in the area. Obviously, as people have said, we feel that Ampthill
is going to be in the centre of a maelstrom for 17 or 18 years. So there’s going to be a
lot of dust kicked up by all the activities going on in and around the estate. We’re
asking for rigorous control methods to be used to reduce dust in the atmosphere. I’ve
read through the Construction Code of Practice and it’s really not very clear as to what
action will be taken as far as controlling dust is concerned.
461. Working hours. I – sorry, next slide. Working hours. We would really
appreciate it if working hours could be restricted to the daytime core hours in and
around the estate. I note in the Construction Code of Practice that there is also a one-
hour window prior to core hours that they can start their equipment and a one-hour
window at the end of operations when they can shut down their equipment. So
effectively core hours are 7 o’clock in the morning till 7 o’clock at night, not 8 o’clock
in the morning to 6.00, as stated. We would really appreciate it if those working hours
could be kept too, but it would appear that we’re in a 24 hour a day, 7 day a week
![Page 76: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/76.jpg)
76
environment as far as working conditions go.
462. Construction program. We would request that the proposed promoter explore
every possibility for reducing the construction program and presence on the estate from
the current 18 year minimum to something more human. Everybody has expressed
concern about the duration of the presence on the estate and how it is going to affect
people’s lives, children and old people and those in between.
463. Construction noise: again, we really need the promoter to do everything that is
humanly possible to control noise. There is very little noise on the estate. I wasn’t
aware of the wind problem up in the high rise blocks, but, apart from that, it’s very
quiet. People come stay with us and they say, ‘I’ve had the best night’s sleep I’ve had
in years because it’s so quiet’. It might have something to do with the beds as well, but
–
464. MR HENDRICK: I think you’re further back though.
465. MR FLETCHER: Yes, we are on the other side of the estate. That’s true.
466. MR HENDRICK: The other ones closer probably get worse.
467. MR FLETCHER: Maybe that’s worse, yes.
468. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Maybe with a coffee you can –
469. MR FLETCHER: Hot chocolate. One of my major concerns and bug bears is
when the construction starts at Euston Station there will be an enormous disturbance of
populations of rats and they will be coming up the lines and towards Ampthill Square,
is my impression. Also, Japanese knotweed has been mentioned earlier. It is one of the
most invasive plants in the world. If that starts being disturbed in the cuttings and
comes on to the estate, then it will be a nightmare to try and actually eradicate it.
470. So, again, we really need something serious from the promoter as to what they
will do about these. Again, in the Construction Code of Practice it mentions these
things, but there’s not a great deal of detail on it.
471. Just a little bit about us, personally: we purchased in December 2010, long after
the 11 March 2010 deadline. The first I heard of HS2 was in January 2012 when it was
![Page 77: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/77.jpg)
77
confirmed it would proceed, and even then I just thought, ‘Mmm. That sounds like a
very big and difficult project but it’s not going to affect me.’ It was only much later I
realised what was going to happen to Ampthill Square Estate.
472. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: My, sort of, delving, shows that some of the values
of homes in the estate have risen by about 40 per cent the last couple of years.
473. MR FLETCHER: Quite possibly, yeah.
474. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I think the handkerchief hasn’t come up quite yet.
475. MR FLETCHER: No. I’m just saying this is our personal circumstances, and all
I’m asking is that the promoter accepts the Euston Action Group submission in regards
to compensation.
476. As far as Euston Station goes, as other people have alluded to, there is a lot of
confusion about what is going to happen up until 2033 and then after 2033, as regards
Crossrail and the conventional train requirements. How is that all going to work
alongside HS2. We would dearly love that until there is a coherent plan for Euston
Station, Old Oak Common is used as a temporary terminus.
477. I think that everybody has discussed heavy goods vehicles in detail. My request is
that all material movements both in and out of Euston Station are made by rail. It must
be far more efficient and economical to do it that way. As to buses, we are concerned
about the bus stops in and around the area. We are very well served by bus stops at the
moment. We would like to keep it that way. We don’t own a car. We like to walk or
use public transport, so we would like that to be maintained.
478. Pedestrian access: as I say, we are in the middle of a maelstrom. Pedestrian access
will be very difficult along Hampstead Road and Eversholt Street for the old, infirm and
children. I would really like some reassurance from the promoter that they will maintain
safe access for our youngest and our oldest.
479. This is more on a general basis. It has been previously mentioned that the
promoter uses the phrase ‘where reasonably practical’. I would like to get an agreed
definition of what is ‘reasonably practical’. In my previous experience it is very hard to
reach an agreement after the works have started. As has been said before, there will be
![Page 78: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/78.jpg)
78
great pressure to continue the work and to meet deadlines. ‘Reasonably practical’ to
somebody who is under pressure to meet deadlines will be slightly different to the
interpretation that I would put on it as a resident who is being inconvenienced by those
activities. So, I would like to get to a point of comfort where we both understand what
we are trying to achieve with using phrase like, ‘where reasonably practical’. The Code
of Construction refers to ‘in line with British standards’ and things like that. It is all a
little vague. I would like something more specific. I think that having something
specific will only aid the contractor or the promoter in actually developing their
construction plans rather than having ‘where reasonably practical’. If they have
something absolutely definite it makes the whole plan a lot clearer.
480. The next point is bridges. I think that bridges have probably been discussed
ad nauseam so I will skip that one. The promoter will have a construction compound on
our estate and that compound will take a large number of parking spaces. We would
like the promoter to consider alternative arrangements for parking on the estate for the
18 years that the construction compound will be there.
481. Again, it is inevitable with the work that is going on on the estate that utilities will
be cut off and reinstating those utilities will take some considerable time, so we would
like the promoter to appropriately compensate those who have been cut off.
482. As far as habitability goes, given the amount of activity in and around the estate,
18 years, we would like the promoter to agree an objective test to clearly establish when
homes are no longer habitable.
483. Just on a general statement about the Construction Code of Practice, the
sustainability policy contained within that makes reference to ‘environmental
enhancement’. A one-for-one replacement of trees is hardly an environmental
enhancement. It also refers to ‘no net loss’ to the natural environment and also
challenging industry standards. The whole Construction Code of Practice does not
actually seem to challenge any industry standards at all. In exceptional cases it actually
says it will comply but there are areas, as I have said, where it says it will be ‘in line
with’ rather than ‘comply with’. Those are my concerns. Thank you very much for
your time. It has been a pleasure.
484. CHAIR: Would you like to add anything briefly? Mr Mould: rats, Japanese
![Page 79: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/79.jpg)
79
knotweed?
485. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Gloves off.
486. CHAIR: And car parking. I don’t know if we have heard much about car parking
and I think rodents certainly we haven’t talked about.
487. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Measures to control pests, rodents, are an important part
of the Code of Construction Practice. Slide P11846-21 summarises the approach in
principle. I won’t read that out but most of those are pretty unsurprising. That is what
we would expect, but clearly that will be built into the contracts for work sites to ensure
that they are properly controlled and measures taken to manage, control and prevent
rodent infestation resulting from the works.
488. So far as Japanese knotweed is concerned that is dealt with under Part 9 of the
Draft Code which has detailed arrangements for controlling non-native species. I won’t
read those out but they are set out in that chapter.
489. So far as car parking is concerned, we have an arrangement with Camden as the
parking authority and also, of course, the freeholder of the estate, to develop a plan to
mitigate as far as we can the impact on car parking spaces. I think on this estate our
understanding is that we estimate that we will take about 60 of the car parking spaces
from time to time during the works. Our understanding is that there are about 150 car
parking spaces. At the moment we understand that they are relatively underused so
there should be some leeway at least in terms of the position on the estate itself. I know
when I say things like that people say, ‘No, that’s not true, that’s not true’. That does
not in any way absolve us from working with Camden to manage the impact on car
parking on this estate as elsewhere within the borough.
490. CHAIR: Any final points?
491. MR FLETCHER: Yes, as far as parking goes, you said you would be taking 60
spaces from time to time. I think that time to time will be 18 years.
492. MR MOULD QC (DfT): It varies. All I mean is there may be some variation.
We have said that we will try. One of the things I referred to earlier was our agreement
with Camden to take steps to manage the efficiencies of work sites so if there are
![Page 80: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/80.jpg)
80
opportunities from time to time during the works to adjust work sites so that we can
release back car parking spaces, we have given a commitment that we will look at that.
I am not saying that we will guarantee it but I just want to leave that option open. I am
sure it is a good idea if we can try and cut down, even if it is only for a period, on the
taking of cark parking spaces, if we keep that open.
493. MR FLETCHER: Okay. On pests and vermin my concern is that there will be a
tidal wave of rats coming out of Euston Station and I don’t think that what you have
there takes account of that. It is more concerned about cleanliness on site and ensuring
that you don’t encourage any rats on your location.
494. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Cleanliness on site?
495. MR FLETCHER: Yes. It says, ‘If infestation occurs’. The rats are there already.
496. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No.
497. MR FLETCHER: You are just going to disturb them and drive them out of
Euston Station.
498. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That is only if the preventative measures don’t work.
We have to allow for the fact that prevention may not work in certain circumstances and
then we will have to deal with the infestation as soon as possible but the aim is through,
amongst other things, cleanliness on site to prevent infestation occurring. That is the
current aim.
499. MR FLETCHER: But the infestation is there already. That is what I am saying.
500. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Okay, well in that case we will have to see what we can
do.
501. CHAIR: It will be a problem and I am sure that HS2 are going to have to get over
the problem otherwise all the residents are going to be very upset. Thank you for raising
it.
502. MR FLETCHER: Thank you.
503. CHAIR: And thank you for patiently sitting at the back throughout the Committee
![Page 81: HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE - Parliament · Mr Tim Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITNESSES Father James Elston Father Paschal Worton Mrs Dorothea Hackman Reverend](https://reader035.fdocuments.net/reader035/viewer/2022062605/5fd2284289e9a667886853a6/html5/thumbnails/81.jpg)
81
to the bitter end and being brief at the end. I appreciate it.
504. MR FLETCHER: A pleasure.
505. CHAIR: Order, order. Could you withdraw from the room, please, so that we
can clear our thoughts from the sitting this morning.